Sitting of 20 November 1946

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  POST OFFICE

    Temporary Sorters
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether, after the revision of duties due to take place on 15th January, 1947, it is intended to continue the employment of temporary full-time sorters who have been employed at the G.P.O. at Mount Pleasant since the beginning of the war.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Burke): The temporary full-time sorters will become redundant when the work performed by them is taken over by permanent established staff early next year; and they will then be discharged in accordance with general arrangements agreed with the staff representatives for the discharge of redundant temporary staff. Temporary sorters who are ex-Servicemen and otherwise eligible for permanent employment as postmen may register for such employment with the appropriate authority and will be considered in their turn with other ex-Servicemen under normal recruitment procedure.
    Mr. Skinnard: In view of the fact that most of the men concerned are elderly and many of them are veterans from the first world war and are therefore unlikely easily to find new employment, will the Minister facilitate re-engagement in another capacity in as many cases as possible?
    Mr. Burke: If they are ex-Servicemen and come within the age limits, they will be given their chance of re-engagement.
    Mr. Ronald Chamberlain: Will the hon. Gentleman consider cushioning their fall by not doing this thing so suddenly, in view of the difficult circumstances in which many of my constituents will be placed?
    Mr. Burke: It will take some time for the scheme to be put into operation.

    Sea Mail, Hong Kong
    Mr. Pickthornasked the Assistant Postmaster-General the average and the maximum time now taken by sea mail to and from Hong Kong.
    Mr. Burke: Mails sent by sea to Hong Kong have recently taken from 35 to 77 days in transmission, with an average of 63 days. The minimum time for the homeward mails has been 33 days, with a maximum of 108 days and an average of 65 days.
    Mr. Pickthorn: Could the hon. Gentleman tell us why there is this very wide gap between the possible and the maximum, and can he also tell us what hopes there are of improvements in time and regularity?
    Mr. Burke: I believe the main bottleneck was at the port of Singapore, but we have started another route for the outward mails. Incoming mails of course are a question for the Hong Kong authorities.
    Mr. Pickthorn: Does another route mean one not going by Singapore?
    Mr. Burke: Yes, it means going by North America.
    Mr. Douglas Marshall: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the long delays are often a source of grave anxiety to Service personnel?
    Mr. Burke: I would remind the hon. Member that we have an air mail service.

    Postal Charges (U.K.—Canada)
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Assistant Postmaster-General what representations have been made by his Department to the Canadian Government in respect of the rates of postage charged on parcels dispatched from Canada to the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Burke: My Department has suggested a modification of the present exceptional accounting arrangements between

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    the United Kingdom and Canadian Post Offices with a view to a possible reduction in the postage rates. I will let the hon. Member know the result in due course.

    Government Correspondence
    Brigadier Mackesonasked the Assistant Postmaster-General if he will give an estimate of the increase or decrease, expressed in percentage or in approximate numbers, of letters, post cards and other correspondence handled by his Department on behalf of Government Departments in July, 1938, and July, 1946, respectively.
    Mr. Burke: As a measure of economy, running records of Government Departments' postings were discontinued in 1942, and they have not yet been reinstituted. On the basis of such data as is available, it is estimated that in July, 1946, the Post Office was carrying about 100 per cent. more correspondence for other Government Departments than in July, 1938.
    Brigadier Mackeson: In view of the large increase, will the Assistant Postmaster-General consult his noble Friend with a view to asking Government Departments to reduce this appalling amount of red tape and correspondence which is cluttering up the country?

    Air Mail Charges
    Mr. Dodds-Parkerasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether he is prepared to consider a reduction in air mail charges for letters and samples to the Commonwealth and Empire, to assist, in particular, those concerned with the export trade.
    Sir Wavell Wakefieldasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether first-class mail will now be sent by air between Britain and the British Empire without surcharge to enable British publishers to compete with U.S. enterprise.
    Mr. Burke: The question of air mail postage is under consideration, and I am not yet in a position to make a statement.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: Is the Assistant Postmaster-General aware that the present rate to Cyprus, for example, works out at just under £4,500 per ton, whereas the charter rate by air is just over £500? Will
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    he not consider a considerable reduction in these air rates?
    Mr. Burke: I am aware of that, but if the hon. Member thinks that the Post Office gets the difference, he is quite wrong.
    Sir W. Wakefield: When does the Assistant Postmaster-General expect to be able to make the statement to which he has referred?
    Mr. Burke: It is rather a complicated matter concerning other Government Departments—[HON. MEMBERS: "Passing the buck again."] It concerns other postal administrations. We are very anxious to make a statement as soon as possible, and we are pressing on with the matter.

  TELEPHONE SERVICE

    Ipsophone Attachments
    Colonel J. R. H. Hutchisonasked the Assistant Postmaster-General when he proposes to make Ipsophone attachments to telephones available to subscribers in this country; and on what terms.
    Mr. Burke: The possibility of introducing facilities on the lines of the Ipsophone is being borne in mind, but for the present the resources of the Post Office must be concentrated on meeting the heavy demands for the provision of basic services.
    Colonel Hutchison: In view of the fact that this ingenious little instrument allows messages to be taken in the absence of the recipient and allows questions to be answered at leisure, does not the hon. Gentleman think there would be considerable demand for it in Government Departments?
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Mr. Burke: There are only 80 of them in Switzerland.
    Mr. Driberg: Whatever the merit of this attachment may be, will my hon. Friend bear in mind that its name is an etymological outrage, and, if he does adopt it, will he rename it in plain English and not leave it a Græco-Latin bastard?

    Toll Calls, London
    Mr. Francis Noel-Bakerasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether he

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    is aware that subscribers in the London area wishing to make toll calls are subjected to delays, particularly after 6.30 p.m.; to what extent these delays are due to shortage of staff or to obsolete equipment; and when he hopes to improve this service.
    Mr. Burke: Delays at present experienced in obtaining a reply from the operator on toll calls are largely due to staffing difficulties. Additional operators have been recruited and trained within recent months and as they gain experience the service will improve. The delays are not caused by obsolete equipment.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Is my hon. Friend aware that owing to the way in which his switchboards are arranged it is theoretically possible for a subscriber to dial TOL and never get a connection at all, because there is no way of determining priorities as to who started dialling first? Is he further aware that it often takes up to three-quarters of an hour to get a call on a toll exchange from London, and is he hopeful that an increase in staff will improve the position?
    Mr. Burke: Yes, I am very hopeful.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: What we really want to know is how to attract the attention of the young lady at the Exchange. [Laughter.] This is not a matter for laughter; once we get the young lady, then all is simple.

    Chiswick (Automatic Exchange)
    Mr. F. Noel-Bakerasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether any plans have yet been considered for the installation of an automatic exchange in Chiswick; and when he expects work to begin.
    Mr. Burke: Arrangements have been made to provide a building for an automatic exchange in Chiswick, and I expect the work to begin within the next few weeks.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Will the Assistant Postmaster-General see that a special line is laid on from Chiswick to the passport office to enable the hon. Member to get permission before he visits friendly countries with unfriendly intentions?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: May I ask my hon. Friend whether he is aware that during my recent journey to Spain there was no question whatsoever of false passports or false visas, and that I used the route used by many hundreds of friendly Allied airmen during the war?

    Trunk Calls (Night Rates)
    Mr. Geoffrey Cooperasked the Assistant Postmaster-General when he now anticipates being able to reintroduce the cheap rate for trunk calls for the whole of the night period, instead of for the present period of from 6.30 to 9.30 p.m. on private telephones, and 5.30 to 9.30 p.m. in public call-boxes.
    Mr. Burke: Conditions in the telephone service at present preclude an extension of the cheap rate period for trunk calls, and I regret that I am unable to say when such an extension is likely to be practicable.
    Mr. Cooper: Will my hon. Friend consider the possibility of extending the present hours as an earnest of his intention to reintroduce the full service as soon as circumstances permit, as I understand that it was such a popular service before the war?
    Mr. Burke: When it started it was from seven o'clock and all through the night. We could not continue it all through the night, and so we fixed the time at 5.30. I think that the extra one and a half hours at the beginning was very much appreciated.
    Mr. Cooper: Could my hon. Friend consider extending it for at least an hour at night?
    Mr. Burke: We will consider that.
    Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: If the difficulty is due to staff shortage, as in the case of the toll exchanges, is it not because the salaries paid by the Post Office to telephone operators compare so unfavourably with those paid to private switchboard operators?
    Mr. Burke: No, Sir, I think it is due to the fact that our wartime staff has left us and our new staff is not fully experienced.

  BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION

    Broadcast Statements (Records)
    Mr. Bossomasked the Assistant Postmaster-General why the B.B.C. has been prevented from having records made of important broadcast statements by approved firms at no cost to the taxpayer.
    Mr. Burke: The B.B.C. have not been prevented from having any such records made.
    Mr. Bossom: Will the Minister do his utmost to induce the B.B.C. to allow historic records of great importance, which a tremendous number of people would like to hear again, to be made available as suggested in my Question? Is he aware that the B.B.C. are now refusing to allow this to be done; and cannot he use his influence in this matter so that the public may benefit as all believed it was the duty of the B.B.C. to permit this?
    Mr. Burke: If the hon. Member means that the B.B.C. should make records for particular persons, I am afraid that that is not possible.
    Mr. William Teeling: Does the Assistant Postmaster-General realise that if the B.B.C. are asked for a recording to be made by a private company for themselves, they are flatly refused?
    Mr. Burke: Anybody can make a recording from a B.B.C. broadcast, but the B.B.C. cannot do it for other persons.
    Mr. Teeling: But the B.B.C. will not allow them to do it.

    Officials (Rights)
    Mr. Bossomasked the Assistant Post master-General what rights his Department had given, other than those included in the original charter, to the B.B.C. officials; and where these are to be found.
    Mr. Burke: I am not aware of any rights to which the terms of the Question would apply.
    Mr. Bossom: Will the Assistant Postmaster General see that the B.B.C. do not usurp powers that they were not intended to possess? Is he aware that the public like to hear recordings more than once? I am suggesting that they should consider permitting people they select to make their own records. Why cannot this be done?
    Mr. Burke: I am sure that the B.B.C. will take notice of my hon. Friend's suggestion that the public would like to hear certain recordings more than once.
    Sir W. Smithers: Ought not the word "rights" to be "lefts"?

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Errol Airfield
    Colonel Gomme-Duncanasked the Secretary of State for Air whether Errol aerodrome was considered by the R.A.F. to be suitable for all types of aircraft, both from the point of view of weather conditions and absence of high-tension cables or other obstacles; and what special in structions were issued to pilots using this aerodrome.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas): We considered this airfield suitable for twin-engined and single-engined aircraft, and it was used for flying training. Weather conditions are average for the district. There are no serious obstructions, provided normal care is taken. I am not aware of any special instructions having been issued to pilots who have used this airfield, but routine briefing would, of course, have taken account of local conditions.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan: Will the Under-Secretary say what he means by "conditions average for the district," and is he aware that there is a high tension cable which goes most of the way around this aerodrome?
    Mr. de Freitas: As to the conditions, there is a good deal of low mist and haze in that region of the country. With regard to the second point, there is a high tension cable a mile away, but that does not alter in any way the answer I gave.

    Range, Studland
    Viscount Hinchingbrookeasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will make a statement on the derequisitioning of the R.A.F. range at Old Harry, Stud-land, Dorset, which has not been used subsequently to VJ-Day.
    Mr. de Freitas: We shall release this range as soon as the land has been cleared of unexploded ammunition, and the target offshore has been removed.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Would the Under-Secretary define exactly what he means by ''release"? Is he aware that a public relations officer in his Ministry stated that the land would no longer be used? Will he undertake here and now specifically to state that the process of derequisitioning will be initiated by him?
    Mr. de Freitas: I can state here and now that the public will be able to go there. I should like to consider the full implications of derequisitioning. It will certainly be clear by March.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: As my Question deals with derequisitioning, how is it that the Under-Secretary comes to the House of Commons so unprepared to make a reply?
    Mr. de Freitas: I am sorry about that. I should not like to give an answer just at the moment.

    Film Service
    Mr. Teelingasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that at R.A.F. station Sharjam, Persia, no films were received between 1st and 21st October; that when three films then arrived they had all been shown there during the previous two months; and, as this is the only form of entertainment, why these shows were free up to 1st September and now cost 9d. a projection.
    Mr. de Freitas: Yes, Sir. I am afraid that at a time when we were re-organising the distribution of films for the Royal Air Force as a whole, a mistake was made in getting films to this station, which I should add is not in Persia. We are now making our film service self-supporting, and all stations are therefore having to make a small charge for admission.
    Mr. Teeling: Why have small charges now to be made, whereas in wartime and later on no charges were made?
    Mr. de Freitas: During the war the film companies were able to give us their films free or very cheaply, but they are not doing so now.
    Mr. H. Hynd: If finance enters into this, will the Under-Secretary bear in mind that the Government recently came into an unexpected £150 at Rotherhithe yesterday?

    Singapore (Special Technical Corps)
    Mr. Collinsasked the Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that members of the Special Technical Corps, Singapore, who rendered signal service to the Allied cause, are still awaiting the back pay and discharge papers which were promised to them in August; and if he will arrange an immediate settlement of this question and also announce his proposals for the re-formation of the Corps.
    Mr. de Freitas: Owing to the loss, in 1942, of all records of this corps, it has been difficult to settle these points since we returned to Malaya. However, we have already cleared nearly 90 per cent. of the pay accounts and the rest are being dealt with. We issue discharge papers whenever they are applied for: 300 have already been issued. In considering the future of this corps, we shall take into account its excellent record, but I cannot yet say whether it will be re-formed.
    Mr. Collins: Is my hon. Friend aware of the uncertainty in this matter among the men who rendered splendid service to the Allied cause, and which may operate against us at a time when we might need them?
    Mr. de Freitas: I am not aware that there is any uncertainty.

    Personal Case
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Secretary of State for Air when the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames can hope to receive a reply to his letters of 3rd January, 1946, and 8th May, 1946, on the subject of an award to the widow of the late Wing-Commander Nettleton. V.C.
    Mr. de Freitas: I hope to be able to write to the hon. Member early next week.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Does that mean that the hon. Gentleman accepts as proper a delay of 11 months in dealing with an individual case in his Department?
    Mr. de Freitas: No, Sir. This letter was one of nearly 4,000 which were received in the Under-Secretary's office from Members during January, and I regret to say that it was lost and has only just been found.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Then why could not a statement that the letter had been lost have been given to me when I sent a reminder in May?
    Mr. de Freitas: The papers were entirely lost—and I am not trying to defend that—and it was impossible to say to what letter the hon. Member's letter referred.

    Lighting Poles (Holes)
    Mr. Manningham-Bullerasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will give instructions that when airfield lighting poles are removed, the persons removing them should fill in the holes left by the poles in order to avoid the danger to livestock.
    Mr. de Freitas: Such instructions have already been given.

    Camp, Buxton (Housing)
    Mr. Molsonasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that German prisoners of war employed in Buxton were to be accommodated in the town, but that squatters have now taken possession of the intended accommodation; and what action the Government proposes to take.
    Mr. de Freitas: Yes, Sir. We do not intend to use this camp for prisoners of war, and the local authority are considering converting the habitable section for housing.
    Mr. Molson: Is it the case that it had been the intention of the Department to use this camp for prisoners of war until it was occupied by squatters, and that the Government then changed their mind as a result of the squatting?
    Mr. de Freitas: I would not like to say entirely that. At one moment we did intend to go there, but now we find it more convenient to go elsewhere.

    Transport Command Flights
    Major Mott-Radclyffeasked the Secretary of State for Air how many Transport Command flights operate weekly from the United Kingdom on the Mediterranean routes.
    Mr. de Freitas: Seven which end in the Mediterranean area, and 13 which pass through on the way to India and the Far East.
    Major Mott-Radclyffe: Is Transport Command to be asked to operate passenger services, for which its planes were not designed, for yet another winter?
    Mr. de Freitas: I could not say that; it depends on how far civil aviation
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    expands. There are, and there must be, contractions in the services as the Royal Air Force contracts.

    Compton Bassett Station (Complaint)
    Mr. Irvingasked the Secretary of State for Air if he is aware of the growing discontent among the men at Compton Bassett camp; and if he will institute an inquiry.
    Mr. de Freitas: No, Sir. There was a temporary shortage of airmen's shirts at this station, but this has now been overcome.

    Closed Maintenance Unit
    Mr. Niall Macphersonasked the Secretary of State for Air why it is in tended to close down his Department's unit at Locharbriggs, Dumfries, and to disband 18 Maintenance Unit; on what grounds this decision has been taken; and when it will become operative.
    Mr. de Freitas: This unit is one of a number of maintenance units which we are having to close down as we reduce the Royal Air Force from its wartime strength. It is less suitable for retention than other maintenance units, and we shall probably close it down about November, 1947.
    Mr. Macpherson: Does that mean that there will be no maintenance unit in Scotland?
    Mr. de Freitas: I would not like to say that. We have always looked after Scotland, and there will be other places in Scotland where there will probably be maintenance units.

    Education Branch (Commissions)
    Mr. Morleyasked the Secretary of State for Air how many of the applicants for commissions in the new education branch of the R.A.F. were able to satisfy all the conditions laid down by his Department for appointment to permanent and short-service commissions in that branch, respectively.
    Mr. de Freitas: All the 131 applicants for permanent or temporary commissions, and 44 of the 81 applicants for short service commissions have the necessary age and academic qualifications. The applicants are now being medically examined.
    Mr. Morley: Is my hon. Friend satisfied that he can make up his full establishment in this branch of the Service?
    Mr. de Freitas: I am hopeful, but there is a great shortage of teachers. We have many vacancies.

    Re-employed Officers (Retired Pay)
    27 and 28. Squadron-Leader Sir Gifford Foxasked the Secretary of State for Air (1) the number of officers who have been re-employed in the R.A.F. during the war who had commuted part of their pensions while out of the Service; and how much was paid back by them as commutation of retired pay during the time they were re-employed;
    (2) why officers re-employed in the R.A.F., who had commuted part of their pensions, have to pay back each year they are in the Service a certain proportion annually, depending on the amount commuted; and why, when they go back on to retired pay, they are still only pensioned at the commuted rate, although the State has gained to the value of the annual payment multiplied by the number of years re-employed.
    Mr. de Freitas: I will, with permission, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Sir G. Fox: Is a large amount of money involved?
    Mr. de Freitas: I would like the hon. and gallant Member to read the reply I am circulating, and then put down a question if he wishes.
    Following is the statement:
    The principles involved in the commutation of Service retired pay are common to all the Services, and are enacted in the Pensions Commutation Acts, 1871 to 1882. This statutory provision is reflected in the regulations relating to the pay of retired officers re-employed in the Armed Forces during emergency, laid down in the case of the Royal Air Force in paragraph 3435A of King's Regulations and Air Council Instructions. Under these regulations certain officers who have been re-employed after retirement have received a 25 per cent. addition to their pay to make up for the fact that their retired pay was suspended, and that this further employment did not count for any increase in retired pay. An officer who
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    has commuted his retired pay cannot, of course, have it suspended, and so he is not entitled to the full 25 per cent. addition. In view of this I do not feel justified in giving instructions for the production of the figures which the hon. and gallant Member requested in his first Question.

    Pigeons
    Sir T. Mooreasked the Secretary of State for Air the number of pigeons used by his Department during the war; and whether any estimate is available of the losses from enemy action.
    Mr. de Freitas: Approximately 100,000. About 23,000 were lost on operations, but how many of these were shot down we cannot say.
    Sir W. Smithers: Are there so few pigeons now because all the pigeon holes are full of Socialist Bills?

    Destroyed Property (Collective Charges)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Air if he will investigate the recent action of the commanding officer, No. I Wing, No. 4 School of Technical Training, R.A.F., St. Athan, in fining some 200 airmen 9d. each for breakages of crockery, for which most of them were not responsible, and threatening those who objected to paying this sum with stoppage of week-end passes and other loss of privileges; whether such action was in accordance with regulations; and how the money so collected was accounted for.
    Mr. de Freitas: I have had a report on this case. It shows that the action taken was in accordance with the Air Force Act and the King's Regulations, which provide for collective charges in cases where public property has been destroyed. The money recovered has been credited to public funds under the normal procedure.

    Bradwell Bay Airfield
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Air what use he proposes to make in future of the R.A.F. station and airfield at Bradwell-juxta-Mare, Essex, officially known as Bradwell Bay; and if he will expedite a decision on the derequisitioning of agricultural land thereat.
    Mr. de Freitas: We have not yet decided on the future of this airfield, but we shall do so as soon as we can. The

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    county agricultural committee have arranged for the agricultural land to be farmed.

  CIVIL AVIATION

    Accidents
    Mr. John E. Haireasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation the number of British civil aircraft engaged and the total mileage flown during the past six months without accident; the number of British civil aircraft involved in accidents and the number of casualties resulting during the same period.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (Mr. Lindgren): As the answer is rather long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: In view of the episode yesterday, which might have ended in tragedy, and taken from our midst one of His Majesty's Ministers, could the hon. Gentleman assure us that greater precautions will be taken when carrying "V.I.P.s," if only to prevent grief and mourning among members of the friendly societies?
    Following is the reply:
    In the six months ending 30th September, 1946, the average number of British civil aircraft engaged on regular services flown by United Kingdom operators was 260, the total aircraft mileage was 17,227,000, and eight aircraft were involved in accidents notifiable under the Air Navigation Regulations. Of these accidents, five involved serious casualties, totalling 29 passengers killed, no passengers seriously injured, 12 crew killed, two crew seriously injured. The total mileage flown without an accident of any kind was 17,223,000.
    In the same period the average number of British civil aircraft, other than those operated by regular operators, was approximately 300. No statistics are available of the number actually flying during the period or of the mileage flown. Of these aircraft nine met with notifiable accidents, of which four involved serious casualties to occupants totalling two killed and four seriously injured.
    The foregoing figures do not cover training and other non-service flying by
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    regular airline operators nor experimental and manufacturers' test flying. My hon. Friend will, of course, appreciate that a six months' period gives no reliable picture of the trend of accidents. My noble Friend has recently issued statistics for 1925, and I am sending a copy to my hon. Friend.

    Empty Seats
    Mr. John E. Haireasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation, why British aircraft, ex British airports, often fly with vacant seats when there is a long waiting list of intending passengers.
    Mr. Lindgren: It would be wrong to assume that empty seats necessarily mean that an aircraft is not fully loaded. The weight an aircraft can carry is, of course, limited. Civil aircraft carry freight and mails as well as passengers, and the corporations in the ordinary course of management have to strike the happy mean in balancing the three classes of load.
    Mr. Haire: Is my hon. Friend aware that on a recent trip which I made to Vienna—which was not at the Government's expense—five seats were occupied out of 17, and that when I made inquiries, privately, why the other seats were not taken, I was told that they had been reserved for military and diplomatic personnel who had not cancelled their bookings?
    Mr. Lindgren: That does arise on occasions, but they are very few indeed.
    Mr. Keeling: Will the hon. Gentleman get out a statement showing what proportion of seats was vacant when civil aviation companies were free of Government control, as compared with the number vacant now?
    Mr. Lindgren: If the hon. Gentleman will put down a question, and the information is available, I will supply an answer.

    Errol Aerodrome
    Colonel Gomme-Duncanasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation whether he is satisfied as to recorded weather conditions at Errol aerodrome; with road and rail communications; with the presence, or other wise, of obstacles to safe flying; and when an adequate service to and from this aerodrome may be expected to begin.
    Mr. Lindgren: The weather conditions at Errol aerodrome, though poor, compare favourably with other aerodromes in the east of Scotland to be used by scheduled air services. Road and rail' communications to both Perth and Dundee are better from Errol than from any other aerodrome in the area which could serve both towns. Five of the six approaches to the aerodrome are obstruction free. The remaining approach, which is seldom used, is obstructed by a high tension cable which, however, caused little interference with Service flying from the aerodrome, and which, I am satisfied, is unlikely to restrict civil flying unduly. A range of mills three miles south of the aerodrome caused no anxiety to the R.A.F. during night flying operations, and do not in themselves obstruct the approaches. A service to and from Errol will be introduced when suitable aircraft are available and when the necessary buildings can be provided and equipped.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncanasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what facilities exist for the refuelling and servicing of aircraft at Errol; if he is aware that aircraft arriving there have to be refuelled and serviced at Perth, 10 miles away; and if, in view of the facilities available, he is prepared to reconsider the question of utilising Perth as a civil aerodrome.
    Mr. Lindgren: No facilities at present exist at Errol for the refuelling and servicing of aircraft as the aerodrome, which is in use for non-flying purposes by the Royal Air Force, is not open to civil flying. Perth is already licensed as a civil aerodrome but it will be too small for safe and regular use by the types of aircraft to be used on main internal air routes.

    Londonderry
    Sir Ronald Rossasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation when a passenger air service from Great Britain will be extended to Londonderry.
    Mr. Lindgren: Although we plan to extend a service to Londonderry at some future date, I regret it will not be possible to do so for some time to come.
    Sir R. Ross: Is the Minister aware that this promise was given many months
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    ago, and can he give some indication of when a service is to be provided; and is it not the case that a service by a private company would have been provided long ago?
    Mr. Lindgren: I am afraid not.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Is it not quite indefensible, as between loyal Northern Ireland and this country, that at Londonderry no such facilities exist, when the Government are only too anxious to make a minority agreement with Eire?
    Sir W. Wakefield: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether permission will be given to private enterprise to run a scheduled service, if the Government cannot do it?
    Mr. Lindgren: The provision of services is entirely a matter for the various corporations which have been set up.

    Northern Ireland
    Sir R. Rossasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation how soon a passenger air service equipped with large modern aircraft and all appropriate safety devices in the air and on the ground will be available between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Lindgren: I hope by the end of the year.
    Sir R. Ross: Is the Minister aware that it is a disgrace that, after this length of time since the war, such pitiful services as are at present provided should be the only ones there?

    West African Service
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation whether meteorological officers have been recruited for airfields on the West African route; and when will the air service to West Africa recommence operations.
    Mr. Lindgren: The first part of the Question is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air. As to the second part of the Question, the air service to West Africa which was suspended on 9th June last on account of the loss of meteorological officers in key positions was restarted on 2nd July.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the Parliamentary Secretary consult with his colleague and find out what the position is with regard to this meteorological service, because there is room for improvement?
    Mr. Lindgren: That is agreed, and consultation is already proceeding.

    Scotland
    Colonel J. R. H. Hutchisonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what are the regular British services flying between Scotland and any foreign country.
    Mr Lindgren: The only British service at present operating directly between Scotland and any foreign country is that between London—Prestwick—Gander and New York.
    Mr. Erroll: Does the Minister realise that the provision of direct flying routes between provincial centres, such as Manchester, and foreign countries is very much desired by people away from Whitehall?
    Mr. Speaker: The Question applies only to Scotland.
    Colonel Hutchisonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what foreign lines conduct regular services between foreign countries and Scotland.
    Mr. Lindgren: Regular services between foreign countries and Scotland are run by the following foreign airlines: Air France, K.L.M., Icelandic Airways, Trans-Canadian Airways and Scandinavian Airlines.
    Colonel Hutchison: In view of the answer to the first and second Questions, comparing these results, can the Minister say if he is still satisfied that nationalised air services can hold a candle to private enterprise?
    Mr. Lindgren: That is not the subject of the Question.
    Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Is it not a disgrace that, after 18 months of this Government, Scotland has to rely wholly on foreign air liners?
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Mr. Lindgren: May I ask whether the hon. Gentleman—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] May I say that air line services
    844
    are provided through the British Government, and Scotland has its fair share of the services which are available.
    Sir W. Wakefield: Will the Minister say when these air services are to be provided from Scotland to foreign countries?
    Mr. Lindgren: As soon as there are the available aircraft to enable that to be done.
    Colonel Gomme Duncan; In view of the unsatisfactory reply, I beg leave to give notice that I shall raise the matter again on the Adjournment.

    Fog Dispersal
    Mr. Teelingasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation how many aircraft under his control were prevented from leaving Great Britain on Saturday, 2nd November, due to fog; how many were diverted and unable to land on stations using Fido; and whether he will reconsider his decision not to install Fido at Heathrow and other large civil airfields.
    Mr. Thomas Reidasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he has finally decided to abandon the use of fog investigation dispersal operation at London airports.
    Mr. Lindgren: On 2nd November there were 14 cancellations owing to fog of aircraft outbound from Great Britain. Eleven inbound aircraft were diverted to various alternative airports where better weather conditions prevailed, and one returned to its place of origin. No aircraft were diverted to airports where Fido was in use. My noble Friend is giving urgent consideration to the question whether Fido, which is already available at certain diversionary airports, should be installed at other airports in the London area.
    Mr. Teeling: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that since this there have been many worse days of fog, and a terrible accident in Holland, which might easily have been here; and that Heathrow has already had a large amount spent on preparing Fido which has all been scrapped; and cannot his Department quickly make up their minds, because this is beginning to terrify large numbers of travellers?
    Mr. Lindgren: Very serious consideration is being given to the matter.
    Sir T. Moore: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that it is not really necessary to go to this enormous expense on establishing Fido when Prestwick is always available, fog-free?
    Mr. Scollan: Is my hon. Friend aware that a fortnight ago on the trip from London to Prestwick, while Renfrew aerodrome was out of commission, there was a delay of over half an hour due to fog at Prestwick; and is he not aware that on the day this unfortunate accident took place in Holland there was no fog at all?

    Service Schedules
    Mr. Lennox-Boydasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (1) when it is proposed to issue the schedule of air services to be operated within the United Kingdom; the dates on which operations will commence; and the types of aircraft to be used;
    (2) when it is proposed to issue for each of the three airline companies schedules of external routes to be operated; the dates on which operations will commence; and the types of aircraft to be used.
    Mr. Lindgren: External services in general are operated on routes laid down in bilateral agreements between His Majesty's Government and the foreign Governments concerned. Such agreements as have been concluded have been laid before Parliament and others are under active negotiation. As regards internal operations, a schedule of services was published in June of this year. The hon. Member will of course appreciate, that circumstances from time to time involve modification. Timetables of existing services are, of course, available and I will arrange for copies to be sent to the hon. Member.
    Under the provisions of the Civil Aviation Act, 1946, the three corporations are required to submit to my noble Friend their programme and estimates for each financial year as well as a forward programme covering three years. Consultations on the future programme are already on foot between my Ministry and the Corporations. As arrangements are made for new services to come into operation, timetables will be issued, but to publish a schedule in anticipation might be prejudicial to our competitive position.

  ARMED FORCES

    Deserters and Absentees
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister without Portfolio how many members of His Majesty's forces were, on 31st December, 1945, and on 31st October, 1946, respectively, absent from their units; how many of these, though not proved to be dead, were then and are now unaccounted for; and how many have and how many have not been traced to civil life.
    The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Bellenger): I have been asked to reply. Some of the figures asked for are not available or could only be obtained by the expenditure of an inordinate effort. I can, however, give the following information:
    In the Navy the number of deserters and absentees on 31st October, 1946, was about 1,500, but I have no figures for 31st December, 1945.
    In the Army there were 19,792 unaccounted for on 31st December, 1945, and 19,267 on 31st October, 1946.
    In the R.A.F, there were 3,214 unaccounted for on 31st December, 1945, and 3,579 on 31st October, 1946.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware that the mystery surrounding these men, who are reported missing though not proved to be dead, is causing great suffering to their families and great domestic complications, and will he take steps to relieve these complications?
    Mr. Bellenger: I am afraid that it is not within my power. It is mainly within the power of the missing to relieve the anxiety of their own relatives.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many cases in which there is an element of doubt as to whether men are genuine deserters and that in those cases the wives or widows, as the case may be, are suffering great hardship and have to have recourse to public assistance; and that, in answer to inquiries to his Department, one is merely referred to the findings of the original court of inquiry which have been lost, and wide hardship is caused?
    Mr. Bellenger: I would not agree with the hon. Gentleman that there are many cases; there may be a few; but as I have

    847
    informed the House before, where there is any reasonable doubt on the part of an individual Member of this House or of the relatives, I am willing to reopen the case.
    Mr. Nicholson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in cases which I have taken up with his Department and with the Prime Minister, I was merely told that as the original evidence had been lost, nothing further could be done, and is not that profoundly unsatisfactory?
    Mr. Bellenger: ft is not as simple and as precise as that. Certainly, the evidence before courts of inquiry may have been destroyed, but as I have said, if there is any doubt at all, I am prepared to examine those individual cases—and only individual cases—and to give the benefit of the doubt where I am convinced it is right to do so.
    Mr. Nicholson: May I send a case to the right hon. Gentleman?
    Mr. Bellenger: Certainly.
    Mr. Martin Lindsay: What explanation is there for the fact that the figures which the right hon. Gentleman has given us in the case of the Army are about twelve times those for the Navy and six times those for the Air Force? Is it due to some different system in dealing with these cases of missing men?
    Mr. Bellenger: I should have thought the hon. Gentleman would have known the answer to his supplementary question Mr. Lindsay: I do not, and that is why I asked it.
    Mr. Bellenger: First, the Army was much larger than the Navy,- and secondly, the Army was on the land and not on the sea.

    Civil and Military Offences
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister without Portfolio how many of those members of His Majesty's Forces now in prison were sentenced for crimes of turpitude and how many for Forces offences; how many of these offences were proved to have been caused by domestic trouble in the lives of the offenders; and if he will take steps to review these cases.
    Mr. Bellenger: Some of the figures asked for are not available or could only be obtained after lengthy research which I do not feel would be justified in present conditions. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT such figures as are available. I have no information about the number of cases due to domestic trouble, but this factor is always taken into account by courts martial in awarding sentences and also by the reviewing authority when sentences are periodically reviewed.
    Mr. Hughes: In view of the shortage of manpower, will the Minister take steps to restore as many of these men as possible to the Forces, to industry. and to their families?
    Mr. Bellenger: Yes, Sir, but I should like to have the assistance of those who are absentees and deserters.
    Mr. Janner: Is there any method of revising these sentences so that in cases where leniency might be extended, it shall be extended?
    Mr. Bellenger: Yes, Sir, and they are constantly being revised.
    Brigadier Low: What is the distinction between crimes of turpitude and Forces offences?
    Mr. Bellenger: In the statement that I am circulating in HANSARD, I am distinguishing between what are known as civil offences and military offences.
    Following are the figures:
    Of 1,338 soldiers convicted by courts martial and serving sentence in military prisons and detention barracks in the United Kingdom on 9th November, 1946, in were sentenced for civil and 1,227 for military offences.
    On 31st October, 1946, a total of 1,570 soldiers were in civil prisons in the United Kingdom, 430 convicted by courts martial and 1,140 by civil courts. Of the former 212 were for purely military offences and 218 for civil or combined civil and military offences.
    The number of airmen serving sentences in civil prisons and military prisons and detention barracks in the United Kingdom is as follows:

    In civil prisons and Borstal institutions:

    For civil offences

    …

    94

    For Service offences

    …

    43

    In military establishments:

    For Service offences only

    …

    192

    Sentences (Review)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister without Portfolio if he will now reconsider and differentiate the cases of His Majesty's Forces sentenced for crimes of turpitude from those sentenced for Forces offences, during the war and since, by courts martial; and if he will take steps to provide an amnesty in suitable cases, so that as many as possible of those persons may be restored either to the Forces or to civil employment.
    Mr. Bellenger: In the Army and Royal Air Force sentences awarded by courts martial are reviewed individually at intervals of not more than six months and all the circumstances of the crimes for which sentence was awarded are considered by the reviewing authority. Sentences by Naval courts are reviewed on receipt in the Admiralty and may also be reviewed at any time on petition by the offender.
    It is the policy of the Services to make use of suspension or remission of sentence in order to restore to useful service all those men whose crimes do not necessitate further incarceration. This policy is in the interest both of the Services and of the individual and I do not think that any special action is called for as the present policy is on the lines suggested by my hon and learned Friend.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember the Army (Suspension of Sentences) Act, 1915, which authorised the suspension of sentences of penal servitude and imprisonment passed on soldiers during the 1914–18 war, and in view of the present shortage of manpower, will he take steps to restore as many of these men as possible to industry and to their families?
    Mr. Bellenger: I cannot say that I recollect the Act to which my hon. and learned Friend refers—it was passed some time ago—but I will take an opportunity of having a look at it.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Minister realise that that Act was passed especially to deal
    850
    with the shortage of manpower during 1914–1918, and would it not be suitable to pass a similar Act now?
    Mr. Bellenger: No, Sir, not necessarily.
    Mr. Stephen: Will the right hon. Gentleman convey to the Minister without Portfolio the need for considering whether the time has not come for a general amnesty?
    Mr. Bellenger: Perhaps my right hon. Friend, during his enforced idleness in hospital, may be able to look at HANSARD and see this Question.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Bread Units and Points (Exchange)
    Captain John Crowderasked the Minister of Food what his policy is regarding the exchange of bread rationing coupons for points; and when he anticipates that he will be able to increase supplies of the various foodstuffs which are obtainable on points.
    The Minister of Food (Mr. Strachey): I propose to allow the exchange of B.U.S for points so long as it continues to meet the need for which it was introduced. Of course, we shall issue more points foods as soon as they are available. There have been some recent increases, for example, canned milk, and next week, canned fruit, and some decreases, for example, biscuits.
    Captain Crowder: Is the Minister aware that there are many people who need all their bread units for bread and who think it most unfair that others, especially large families who do not want so much bread, should have a large number of extra points to use; and, secondly, is he aware that, especially in North London, shops are unable at this moment to produce goods when the points are tendered?
    Mr. Strachey: We changed the exchange rate between bread units and points because we thought there was an excessive inducement, but it has been a very great inducement to people to save bread, and it has been very successful in that way. With the present ratio, I do not think it is acting unfairly.
    Mr. R. S. Hudson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his original answer hardly tallies with the assurance which

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    he gave to the House and the country last July that he had taken steps to see that adequate supplies of points goods would be available in exchange?
    Mr. Strachey: Points goods have never run out. What the right hon. Gentleman must have in mind is that particular points goods may not be available at a given time and place. That is always so under points rationing.
    Mr. Hudson: Is the Minister aware that no such qualification was made by him when he gave the original assurance?

    Dried Fruit and Suet
    Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Food if he will take steps to ensure the adequate distribution of suet and dried fruits in all areas in good time for the making of Christmas puddings and mince meat.
    Mr. Strachey: Allocations of dried fruit for the Christmas trade in all areas were made on 13th October and 10th November and the fruit will reach the shops during the next month. All the shredded suet that can be made available will be distributed during the next few weeks, but I regret that it is very scarce.
    Mrs. Castle: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are only five weeks to Christmas, and that housewives are very anxious to get ahead with preparations? Will he give an assurance that he will speed up the release of the suet, and take all possible steps to increase the supply of this very important supplement to the fat ration?
    Mr. Strachey: Certainly, Sir. The difficulty has been shipment from the Argentine.
    Mr. R. S. Hudson: Can we rely on that assurance from the right hon. Gentleman?
    Mr. Strachey: I made a remark on the difficulties of shipment from the Argentine. If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that an assurance, I do not know what he means.

    Milk
    Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Food if he is aware that many milkmen refuse to leave milk against emergency ration cards; and if he will take steps to remedy the hardship caused to those who have to use these cards.
    Mr. Strachey: Milk retailers get a special allowance of milk out of which they should be able to supply holders of temporary ration cards. If some retailers have difficulty in serving all such customers with milk, the local food office will help.
    Mrs. Castle: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the experience of people going on visits or lodging temporarily is that they simply cannot get milk on the emergency card, and can he not issue some instruction to milkmen that these cards must be honoured on their milk items as on others?
    Mr. Strachey: Yes, we will endeavour to do that.
    Captain Crookshank: Will the Minister say how the food office can help? It doe? not keep milk.
    Mr. Strachey: If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will consider the matter for a moment, he will realise that it can help in exactly the way my hon. Friend suggests, by putting pressure on the retailer to honour the emergency card.
    Sir John Mellorasked the Minister of Food why the 94,000,000 gallons of milk produced in September, 1946, only provided a ration of two pints weekly, whereas the 90,000,000 gallons produced in September, 1945, provided a ration of 2½pints; what was the production for October, 1945 and 1946, respectively; and why the ration was reduced 10 weeks earlier in 1946 than in 1945.
    Mr. Strachey: Civilian requirements of milk during September, 1946, were higher than during September, 1945, mainly because of demobilisation and the higher birth rate. Difficulty had been experienced in September, 1945, in maintaining a 2½pint allowance and in order to avoid even worse difficulties this year owing to the increased demand the allowance was reduced to two pints earlier this year than last year. The estimated total sales of milk in October, 1945 and 1946, were 94 and 99 million gallons respectively.
    Sir W. Smithers: Is it not a fact that the whole policy of the Minister in this series of questions is designed to weaken the public's resistance to the tryanny of Socialism?

    Parcels for Germany and Austria
    Mr. Asterley Jonesasked the Minister of Food whether he will now permit parcels of food to be sent abroad
    Mr. Collinsasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the food crisis in Germany, he will permit the sending, by individual British citizens, of food parcels to Germany.
    Mr. Strachey: I would refer the hon. Members to my answer to the Questions asked by the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Lipson) and the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Jegar) on 18th November
    Mr. Jones:: Will the right hon. Gentleman give us the reasons why these people who wish to make this personal sacrifice for the benefit of others should not be allowed to do so?
    Mr. Strachey: No, Sir, because the matter is being reconsidered, and I hope to make a statement at an early date.
    Mr. Collins: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will make the statement?
    Mr. Strachey: At a very early date.
    Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Will the right hon. Gentleman make his statement as soon as he is able to make the statement about extra rations in this country for Christmas?
    Mr. Strachey: I have no statement.
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: Do not be so optimistic.
    Mr. Stokes: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the ever growing concern of a large number of people in this country in regard to this matter, and will he give an assurance that, if he is going to make a statement, it will be made soon and in time for Christmas?

    Bread Rationing (Manual Workers)
    Brigadier Lowasked the Minister of Food whether he will reconsider the application of N.A.L.G.O. for the inclusion of coin meter collectors as manual workers in the bread-rationing scheme; and if he will now change his policy of considering such applications only if they submitted through the T.U.C.
    Mr. Strachey: I have considered the representations which have been made on behalf of coin meter collectors in consultation with the Trades Union Congress Advisory Committee and decided not to extend the schedule B.M.W.1 to include this type of worker. It is not and has never been the policy of my Ministry to refuse consideration to applications submitted by bodies unconnected with the Trades Union Congress. But whenever any issues are raised affecting the food supplies of workers, I shall continue the practice initiated by my predecessors of referring such matters to the Trades Union Congress for their advice.
    Brigadier Low: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food wrote to me on 5th November and said that this matter was not being considered because an application had not been made through the T.U.C? Does not that rather conflict with the Minister's statement?
    Mr. Strachey: The application comes to us, not through the Trades Union Congress. We consult the Trades Union Congress and get their advice on it.
    Mr. R. S. Hudson: Can the Minister state whether he carried out that process on the occasion of the increased meat ration for mine workers?
    Mr. Strachey: Yes, Sir

    Medical Research Animals (Food)
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Minister of Food why a weekly allowance of two-and-a-half tons of oats and one ton of bread is made under licence from his Department to Messrs. A. W. Tuck and Son, of Rayleigh, Essex, for the purpose of feeding mice; and if he will stop this allowance during this time of bread shortage.
    Mr. Strachey: Oats and spoilt bread unfit for human consumption are supplied for mice and rats bred for medical research purposes. I am not prepared to stop the supplies needed for this important work.
    Mr. Freeman: Is it not a fact that this bread has been specially made for these mice, and will the Minister see that in future only bread is allocated for this purpose which is unfit for human consumption?
    Mr. Strachey: No, Sir, my hon. Friend is misinformed. All this bread is unfit for human consumption.
    Mr. Marlowe: Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that this priority is retained in view of the necessity for sustaining members of His Majesty's Government?
    Major Cecil Poole: Can the Minister tell us what is the weekly bread ration for one mouse?

    Fried Fish Licences, Rural Areas
    Mr. Glossopasked the Minister of Food if he will state the number of applications received to start fried fish shops in rural districts during the last 12 months, together with the number of applications which have been granted.
    Mr. Strachey: I regret that separate information about rural districts is not available. In the U.K. as a whole there were during the 12 months to 15th October, 1946, 2,379 applications for fried fish licences, of which 1,163 were granted.
    Mr. Glossop: In view of the importance of increasing these facilities, if I repeat the Question in 14 days can I have the information then?
    Mr. Strachey: I cannot promise that. Our staffs are very hard pressed and could not be put on to that. Whatever the necessity is, it would not be likely to make it possible for us to license more shops, because of the difficulty of fats.
    Mr. Glossop: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.
    Mr. Hale rose—
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member who asked the Question has given notice that he will raise it further on the Adjournment and, therefore, no further supplementary can be asked.

    Maize
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenportasked the Minister of Food if he will give up-to-date information indicating the present amount of maize available to, and being imported by, European countries together with some information as to why such supplies are not available for British
    856
    pig and poultry keepers; and if better arrangements are to be made in the near future to ensure that Great Britain will have an adequate share of the world's exportable supplies of maize.
    Mr. Strachey: I am afraid the detailed information about other countries which the hon. and gallant Member asks for is unobtainable. If the hon. and gallant Member means to inquire why maize that has been imported by other European countries was not purchased by the United Kingdom I would point out that we have made substantial purchases. These are being brought to this country so soon as the necessary arrangements can be made.

    Fish Meal
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenportasked the Minister of Food the present average output of fish meal in this country and what arrangements are being made to make a greater proportion of this meal available for poultry food.
    Mr. Strachey: The average monthly output of fish meal during the three months July September, 1946, was 4,100 tons. Commercial poultry keepers already receive 10 per cent. of their ration in protein coupons against which fish meal can be obtained. I am advised this percentage of animal protein for poultry is enough.

    Oatmeal (Bulk Supplies)
    Mr. Thornton-Kemsleyasked the Minister of Food what steps he is taking to implement the pledge given by his Parliamentary Secretary as a result of the introduction of bread rationing and the placing of oatmeal on points, to the effect that people living in isolated parts of Scotland who have in the past always laid in bulk supplies of oatmeal will still be able to do so.
    Mr. Strachey: Divisional food officers in Scotland were, on 1st August, 1946, given full discretion to permit people living in isolated areas in the Highlands and Islands to buy oatmeal in bulk against the surrender of coupons normally valid for a future period. These arrangements are still in force and application should be made to the local food office.
    Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: Is the Minister aware that the reply given by the Parliamentary Secretary on 31st July included

    857
    as well as the Highlands and Isles, all remote areas? What has the Minister done about that?
    Mr. Strachey: I do not think for one moment that we should refuse to consider a remote area in, for instance, the Lowlands of Scotland.
    Mr. Thornton-Kemsley: Will the divisional food officers be told that, because they have no instructions at the moment?
    Mr. Strachey: Certainly, Sir.
    Mr. Spence: In Aberdeen the local food officer has no such instructions and many remote areas in Aberdeenshire are isolated in the winter. I checked that on Monday.
    Mr. Strachey: I quite agree that the remoteness of an area—where it lies geographically—should be the criterion, and I shall see that this matter is brought to the attention of the Scottish food authorities.
    Mr. R. S. Hudson: Can the Minister tell us why an assurance given on his behalf at the end of the summer has not yet been translated into an instruction?
    Mr. Strachey: I am not accepting for one moment that that is the case. If it is the case then I am giving an undertaking to see that it is remedied.
    Mr. Hudson: That does not answer my question. Why was the assurance not translated into instructions? The right hon. Gentleman was not present in the House when his Parliamentary Secretary gave the assurance.
    Mr. Strachey: Assuming that the statements which have been made, no doubt in perfect good faith, do represent the facts, I cannot accept them. The right hon. Gentleman has not the slightest idea whether they represent the facts or not.

    Tangerines
    Commander Nobleasked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that tangerines are being sold in London at about 1s. 6d. each; what is the import price of this fruit; from where they are imported; and whether this is permitted, in view of the fact that oranges are still on the ration.
    Mr. Strachey: Present supplies of tangerines are being privately imported from
    858
    the Mediterranean area. We do not attempt to control the price but as and when supplies increase prices will no doubt fall. In the meanwhile no one is, of course, compelling the hon. Member's constituents to pay 1s. 6d. for a tangerine. Needless to say there is no question of these or other similar private imports interfering with our bulk Government purchases of the maximum obtainable quantities of oranges and other staple fruits which are sold at reasonable controlled prices.

    Siamese Rice Exports
    Mr. Walter Fletcherasked the Minister of Food the figures of export of rice from Siam for July, August, September and October.
    Mr. Strachey: The figures are: 4,3,426 tons in July, 34,359 tons in August, 27,461 tons in September, and 37,781 tons in October.
    Mr. Fletcher: Is the Minister aware that this average is considerably below that of the previous six months and entirely belies the Minister's optimistic statement that there would be an improvement? Is he also aware that failure to mobilise this rice has led to disaster in Malaya and starvation and distress throughout the whole Far East?
    Mr. Strachey: I am intensely aware of the importance of Siamese rice, and urgent consultations are going on between His Majesty's Government and the Government of the United States on the matter at this moment. The failure is the failure of the Siamese Government, but it is most important to try to induce or persuade them to overcome their failure.
    Mr. Driberg: May we take it that none of this rice is going to countries which do not ration rice?
    Mr. Strachey: I should need notice of that question, but the much greater part of it is going to neighbouring countries in the British Commonwealth and Empire, which do ration rice.
    Mr. Nicholson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the real failure lies with His Majesty's Government in their insistence in purchasing the rice only through the Siamese Government, and that if they had gone to the producers they would have obtained hundreds of thousands of tons of rice?
    Mr. Strachey: There has been no such insistence, and that is not a factor in the situation at all.
    Mr. Fletcher: In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

WOMEN'S AUXILIARY SERVICES (CONTINUANCE)
The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Bellenger): With Mr. Speaker's permission I propose to make a statement about extended service engagements for the Women's Services.
As announced to the House by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour on 30th May last, the Government have decided that the W.R.N.S., the A.T.S. and the W.A.A.F. will be continued on a voluntary basis as permanent features of the Armed Forces of the Crown, and it is the Government's intention to introduce at a later date the necessary legislation. The A.T.S. and the W.A.A.F,, with such alteration in titles as may be necessary and appropriate to their altered status, will be incorporated in the Army and the R.A.F. respectively and will be subject to the Army and Air Force Acts, with such modification as may be desirable. It is not the intention to make the W.R.N.S. subject to the Naval Discipline Act.
Pending the passing of this legislation the Government have decided to offer to women of the W.R.N.S., the A.T.S. and the W.A.A.F. now serving, and to those who have already been released, an opportunity of entering into an extended service engagement in these Services. The recruitment of women on emergency engagements will continue and both these women and the women who enter into extended service engagements will be eligible to apply for transfer to regular engagements when such engagements are introduced. Women appointed to extended service engagements will be given the option of leaving the Service on marriage, subject to a minimum period of notice.
The scheme will be opened immediately and will remain open for a limited time only. I will, with permission, circulate the broad lines of the extended service scheme for the W.R.N.S., the A.T.S. and the W.A.A.F. in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I am sure that I can count on the coopera-
860
tion of Members in bringing the advantages of the scheme to the attention of their constituents who may be serving or who have served in the Women's Forces during the war.
Major Legge-Bourke: Is it the intention that members of the Women's Services would serve abroad?
Mr. Bellenger: I imagine that some may be given the opportunity, but I should not like to give a specific reply to that question now.
Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: Will the rates of pay be as at present?
Mr. Bellenger: I have referred to rates of pay in the statement which I am circulating.
Following is the statement:

W.R.N.S., A.T.S. AND W.A.A.F., EXTENDED SERVICE ENGAGEMENTS
1. OFFICERS.

(a) Appointments will be available for extended service for alternative periods of three, four or five years on the active list at the option of the individual and of the Service Departments.

(b) Officers who are accepted for a period of less than five years, or who leave the active list prematurely, will be transferred to unemployment or a reserve for the balance of five years from the date of appointment. During this period, they will be liable for recall in emergency, but not for training in peace-time.

(c) Married women may be accepted for extended service under this scheme provided they satisfy the Service Authorities that they are likely to be fully mobile for the period of their service. They will be permitted to relinquish their commissions or revert to unemployment or to a reserve after a reasonable period of notice should a change in family circumstances render this necessary.

(d) In the event of marriage while on the active list, officers will have the option of remaining in the Service or alternatively of resigning or transferring to unemployment or to a Reserve. An officer not on the active list will also have the option of relinquishment on marriage.

(e) Officers who undertake extended service will be entitled to a gratuity on the completion of the active list period of their Service at the rate of £50 for each

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year of extended service subject to the same conditions as for comparable male officers including the payment of proportionate gratuity in certain cases where the contract is not completed, except that, normally, officers resigning on marriage or change in family circumstances will not be eligible for any gratuity unless they have completed two years' extended service.

(f) The current rates of pay, which include the additional 1s. a day announced "by the Prime Minister on 27th June, 1946, will remain in issue to officers appointed under this scheme, until the new permanent rates of pay can be announced. War Service increments will also be paid according to rank at the rates earned up to 30th June, 1946, and this will apply to officers who rejoin for service after that date.

(g) Officers still serving who extend their service under this scheme, will be granted 28 days end of war leave subject to the same conditions as for male officers. They will also be granted 28 days' leave on completion of their service. Officers who have already received 56 days' leave on release and who rejoin for extended service will be granted only the 28 days' terminal leave on completion of service.

2. RATINGS, OTHER RANKS AND AIRWOMEN.
(a)Eligibility under the Scheme.
To be eligible to volunteer under the scheme, women must fulfil requirements of age, medical standard and qualifications which the Services will lay down, and must belong to or be qualified for branches and trades in which vacancies exist, and which will be specified. Subject to these conditions, the engagement will be open either to women still serving or to women who have left the Services, provided in each case that they have had not less than one year's service. Married women will be eligible to enter into engagements under the scheme, under similar conditions to those for officers, and, should their family circumstances alter, discharge may be permitted after a reasonable period of notice. A woman who marries after entering into an engagement will have the option of leaving the Service subject to a minimum period of notice.
(b) Length of engagement.
Women will be invited to volunteer for extended service for alternative periods of two, three or four years, at the option of the individual and of the Service Departments. There will be no reserve liability. The period will commence from the date of engagement under the scheme.
(c) Conditions of service and rates of pay.
Women who engage under this scheme will be entitled to the current rates of pay of their rating or rank, which include the additional 8d. a day in accordance with the Prime Minister's statement referred to above until new permanent rates can be announced. War service increments will also be paid according to rating or rank at the rates earned up to 30th June, 1946, and this will apply to women who rejoin for service after that date.
Women who volunteer and are accepted for extended service will receive a clothing allowance of £13 16s. and coupons for a civilian outfit, provided they have not already had a clothing grant on leaving the Service. On completing their period of extended service, women will receive a gratuity at the rate of £20 for each full year of service completed under the Scheme. For women invalided, the gratuity for a broker period will be assessed on the same basis as for men. Except in the case of invaliding, a gratuity will not be payable unless at least two years' service has been completed. The gratuity for any uncompleted year after the second will be £20 reduced by £2for each month or part of a month by which it falls short of a completed year (subject to a maximum deduction of £20). Gratuity will not be paid to women who are discharged for misconduct.
(d)Leave.
Women who re-engage under this scheme before being released will be granted 28 days' re-engagement leave (or the amount of any overseas service leave if greater), 28 days' end of the war leave, subject to the same conditions as for men, and 28 days' terminal leave on completion of engagement. Re-engagement leave will be granted on a woman's volunteering or as soon after as is possible, and end

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of war leave may be taken either when circumstances permit, or, if the woman prefers, at the end of her service. Women returning to the Services from civil life who have already had 56 days' terminal leave will be granted only the 28 days' terminal leave on completion of engagement.
3. Extended service gratuities will be exempt from income tax.
4. Fuller details of the arrangements will shortly be issued by the Admiralty, the War Office and the Air Ministry.

BILL PRESENTED
  COTTON (CENTRALI SED BUYING) BILL
  "to make provision for centralised buying, selling and distribution of raw cotton, for the establishment of a Commission for that purpose and for the purpose of research in connection with raw cotton and its manufacture, and for matters connected therewith, presented by Sir Stafford Cripps; supported by Mr. Herbert Morrison, Mr. Arthur Greenwood, the Attorney-General and Mr. Marquand; to be read a Second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 9.]
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  (AMENDMENTS ON GOING INTO COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY)
  No Notices of Amendments on going into Committee of Supply to be given until the first Thursday in February.— [Mr. Herbert Morrison.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY
  KING'S SPEECH

    DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS
    [Seventh Day]
    Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [12th November,]
    "That an humble Address be presented to (His Majesty, as followeth:
    Most Gracious Sovereign,
    We Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—[Mr. Henry Usborne.]
    Question again proposed.

PRODUCTION
3.36 p.m.
Mr. Harold Macmillan: I beg to move, at the end of the Question, to add:
"but humbly submit to your Majesty that, while your Ministers declare the urgent necessity of increased production, there are no practical proposals in the Gracious Speech calculated to unite Your Majesty's subjects in a free national effort to this end; but, on the contrary, Your Ministers, at this time, propose further measures of nationalisation which must confuse and retard the recovery of the nation."
In rising to move this Amendment, I am deeply conscious of the importance and significance of this occasion. Its importance, of course, lies in the vital and compelling character of the main question which is to be discussed today. In the various phases of our long political and social history there seems to emerge, through each succeeding generation, one dominant theme on which are concentrated, for the time being, men's hopes and fears, satisfactions and disappointments, struggles, controversies, failures, triumphs. During all my political and business life—and I think this experience is shared by many of the older Members of this House—that is, during almost the whole period between the two wars, the question of unemployment has, in the field of home politics, played this major role. This problem of unemployment presented itself through all those years, to each succeeding Government, with baffling malignity. All attacked it with varying fortunes, none with complete success. To

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some it was a constant running sore, others it completely overwhelmed, and to all it was the grim skeleton in the political cupboard.
I believe that in this period on which we are now embarking the problem of unemployment will be replaced by the problem of production—success or failure in raising production, in overcoming scarcity, in increasing both visible and invisible exports. This will be the test. By this measuring rod Governments will be judged; by this criterion they will stand or fall. One thing is certain; we must bring to this task fresh and open minds. Old catch words, obsolete slogans—"Socialism","private enterprise", "free trade"—will have to go. We shall need a new and more imaginative approach. If I may I should like to recall the words of the Prime Minister on Monday night to the effect that many people have a theory and then search for facts to support it. Let us beware of that. Nor, I think, can any fair-minded man or woman deny that Ministers taking office at such a time have a gigantic task. It is not possible to destroy Europe and half the world twice in a single generation, to inflict such hideous and gaping wounds upon the whole fabric of civilised life, and then expect, in a few months or even, perhaps, years, to re-establish and rebuild posterity. Ministers have handicapped themselves gravely, perhaps fatally, from the outset. I do not blame them because, in 18 short months, they have not solved all these tortuous problems. I do blame them because, 18 months ago, they led the people of this country to believe that easy solutions lay ready to hand.
Mr. Shurmer (Birmingham, Sparkbrook): Has not the right hon. Gentleman read "Let us Face the Future"?
Mr. Macmillan: It was not in this mood or by such promises that we and they jointly undertook a much sterner enterprise six years ago. If, now, their exhortations meet with little response, it is they, and not the people, who are to blame. You cannot play fast and loose in this irresponsible way with the deep emotions of a great people. Eighteen months ago, Ministers issued to the electorate a fundamentally false prospectus, and they must pay the inevitable penalty today.
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The substance of the Amendment is of great importance. I think its timing is of equal significance. Hon. Members may recall that, in the course of last autumn's Debates, particularly those in connection with the nationalisation Measures, the Leader of the House was pleased to be very facetious at the expense of the Opposition, and chaffed them very frequently on their failure to put down Amendments to the Address on that occasion, the opening of the first Session of this Parliament. With characteristic pettiness, he mistook courtesy for weakness. It was good manners and not a lack of vigour. However, I do not think that, in this second and perhaps final Session of this Parliament, the right hon. Gentleman need complain of a lack of vigorous opposition, from all quarters of the House. Sometimes he is assailed from his front, sometimes he is attacked from his flank, and sometimes he is stabbed in the back. It seems to be a sort of general melee. It is true that sometimes his candid friends are willing to wound but afraid to strike; at any rate, if their flesh is weak, their spirit is thoroughly disloyal. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that, on this occasion at any rate, the Amendment will be pressed to a Division.
What a contrast between last year and this, between the opening of the first Session and the opening of the second Session of this Parliament. Then, Ministers and Ministerialists were a triumphant, confident, united band. Look at them now. We have had a real object lesson in the last two or three days. Ministers are querulous and anxious. The bold knights of debate are frequently deserted by their esquires. The great body of their supporters is divided into rival and clamantly argumentative groups, inside and outside the confines of this House. Only the semblance of discipline is with difficulty maintained. To the intoxication of electoral success has succeeded, all too soon, a great political hang-over.
We believe that the supreme internal issue of the day is the increase of production. From their recent pronouncements it would appear that Ministers share this view. It is true that their exhortations are in a very different mood and tone from the catchpenny nostrums by which they have won their way to Parliament. My right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and

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Leamington (Mr. Eden) exposed that inconsistency once and for all, in the course of a brilliant speech earlier in this Debate. I assume that Ministers have seen the light. Some of them have seen the red light. In one short sentence of the King's Speech they have set out their objective accurately enough, but it is our contention that to the attainment of that purpose—the increase of production—the Measures foreshadowed in the Gracious Speech are, for the most part, utterly irrelevant, and that where they are not irrelevant, they are positively harmful.
Happily, we do not differ on the problem to be solved. That, at least, is an advance. We do however differ from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite in the approach to the problem, both in principle and in emphasis. A successful industrial policy must depend upon Government and industry playing their appropriate roles in a healthy partnership. No Government, of whatever complexion, can dissociate itself from a large degree of intervention, and indeed management, in the economic life of the modern State. We can never return to the old, classical laissez faire. It is the Conservative Party, at any rate, which has opposed that doctrine for 100 years. The question is not, as I see it, whether the Government should play a part in the economic life of the nation. The question is by what means, at what level and for what purpose A compromise must be devised between the extreme individualism of the early 19th century and the totalitarian tendencies of modern Socialism. Such a compromise is, surely, in the British tradition, but if a right solution is to be found, it must be based upon the right division of functions. In a word, we have to evolve a system whereby public design by the Government is combined with private initiative, and whereby order and freedom can march together. The analogy of military operations has often been used, so let me adopt it now. A great commander plans the strategy of the campaign or the battle, but, if he is wise, he resists the temptation to interfere with the tactical direction of, the units under his command—the corps, division, brigade or battalion. In the same way, the Government must do its proper job in broad economic policy. It must not
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undertake the operation or direction of particular industries or trades or commercial markets. The Government's functions are strategic; those of industry and commerce tactical. While the Government's concern is with such matters as finance, taxation policy, monetary policy, tariffs, and so forth, it must, at any rate in the immediate period of reconstruction following war, undertake the broad guidance of the appropriate balance of exports and imports, in order to solve the increasing difficulty of the balance of external payments—an embarrassing legacy of war which has changed Great Britain from a great creditor to a great debtor nation.
What are the chief obstacles to production? What are the chief things standing in the way of what we are all trying to achieve? No one can pretend that the ownership of industry is the major problem, and no one seriously argues—if they do, there are very sound Socialist opinions to contradict the assertion—that the setting-up of State capitalism in the place of private capitalism will help us from the psychological point of view. We have only to look at the mining industry. On the technical side, the Lord President of the Council himself admits that, to suit his own particular doctrines or dogmas, he will tip the argument either way. If the industry is alleged to be inefficient, it must be taken over, but if it is efficient, it is ripe for public ownership. It is, "Heads I win and tails you lose." Nor can anyone deny the immense technical dislocation involved in nationalisation. The Coal Board has before it at this moment an enormous, overwhelming task. It will take it a very long time, at the best, to sort it out.
Mr. Gallacher: It was necessary.
Mr. Macmillan: The purchase of the stocks and shares of the railway companies—that has now been decided on—will give the Government no greater control of the railways than they have under the present rental agreement. This arrangement might well have been continued, at least during the present crisis and pending an independent and impartial inquiry. As it is, I know what will happen. The efforts of the skilled railway managements will largely be diverted from their proper work, to the immense complication of the technical and financial readjustments

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which must follow. The road hauliers—masters and men alike—will put up a fierce resistance. No one can pretend that a better result can be achieved by seizing their businesses, than could be obtained by voluntary agreement for the coordination of road and rail. Nobody seriously believes that the present Government control of the electricity distributing industry is insufficient to preside over any developments that may be necessary. The assumption of ownership will do nothing but introduce delay. Nor can the inflationary effect of these nationalisation schemes be denied. Assets which are now largely sterilised are quickened and made liquid. This will happen in coal, but to a far more serious extent in electricity and transport. Not hundreds of millions but thousands of millions of pounds are involved. I should have thought there could be no worse moment in our history than this for turning fixed assets of all kinds into liquid purchasing power.
The true obstacles to further production are partly psychological and partly material. They are, in part, the inheritance of the past, and in part the legacy of war. It is upon these points that resolute action is required. As I have already observed, Governments between the two wars were dominated by the shadow of unemployment. The memory of those years has bitten deep into the hearts of the people. They fear above all things a return to those times—
Mr. Walker: That is why they sent us here.
Mr. Macmillan: I am trying to put this argument fairly. There are many parts of the country, such as South Wales and the North-East coast, where the workless 1920's and 1930's will be remembered with bitterness, just like "the hungry 'forties" of the previous century. Let us try to analyse this disease if we are to cure it. Throughout the economic system in Great Britain and the world, production during those years seemed always to be one step ahead of effective demand, and all effort during that time was directed to the solution of the apparent paradox of need in the midst of plenty. No party that held office during that period was able to find a satisfactory solution. The Labour Governments of 1923 and 1929 did not fail because they had not a majority in the House of Commons but because they did
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not know the answer. Nor did we. That is true. Many admirable amelioratory plans were put forward—such as derating and the measures for the special areas—but the root of the problem' escaped analysis. Therefore the psychological legacy of the prewar generation remains with us, and one of the difficulties, it will be generally admitted, of increasing production at the present time lies in the memories among both workmen and industrialists, of those difficult deflationary years. A restriction of production was fostered by Governments of all parties to meet that prewar lack of balance between production and demand. On the employers' side, new entrants were discouraged and competition reduced. By internal selling arrangements, many methods tending towards monopoly or quasi monopoly were developed, and those were justifiable, given the conditions and knowledge of the time. They were supported by Conservative and Socialist Governments alike. In the same way, the restrictive practices of trade unions were developed in order to make the job last as long as possible, since there was a grave risk that when one job was finished it would not be followed by another.
All these practices on both sides, whatever may have been the necessity for them then, are surely unsuitable to a period when, it is agreed by all, production will for a long time be necessary at the highest possible level. Meanwhile, a new monetary policy has been devised. It holds the field. Associated primarily with the name of Lord Keynes, it was expanded and adopted by the general agreement of all parties in the last Coalition Government. It has not, I admit, been put to the test, but it is vital to strengthen and not to undermine the general belief in its efficacy. So huge is the need of the world for goods and services, so great the gap and void that war has made, that I do not see the prospect of over-production in relation to demand for many years to come. Of course, goods must be of the right quality. They must be sold at reasonable prices. But the difficulties that will arise will not be difficulties due to shortage of credit or to a lack of full order books. They will be due either to the monetary inflation in this country which cannot be stopped, or to a shortage of primary raw materials, more particularly fuel. There will not be

871
the old kind of unemployment due to lack of credit or orders but a new form of unemployment due to lack of the actual things, and of power to make the wheels of industry go round.
It is because I feel that it is so important to preserve the confidence in this high employment policy and the monetary plans to support it that I and my friends so gravely deplored the recent excursion into the subject by the Secretary for Overseas Trade. It is true that the hon. Gentleman is a professor, and since he has learnt much, much must be forgiven him. To speak of the inevitability of a slump still more to speak of its early arrival—
Mr. Cobb: He did not speak of its early arrival.
Mr. Macmillan: —comparing it to that of the year 1931, is I think a grave disservice to the nation at this time. These jeremiads, even upon the professorial level, are very dangerous. I have no doubt the Prime Minister has administered a proper castigation in private, and that the hon. Gentleman is nursing his grievance. I should have been more satisfied if the castigation had been administered in public.
Even the fear of shortages of raw materials may have a very depressing effect upon production. It was our well-known war experience that, when the shops were full and the flow constant, production rose immediately, because of the confidence that followed. If, on the other hand, there were hold-ups, if it got around, that there was a shortage of raw materials in the stores, production correspondingly fell. That is a natural human reaction. Moreover, I think that workmen very often blame managements for shortages which are beyond the management's control. It is, therefore, of the greatest importance that these misunderstandings which tend to reduce confidence throughout industry, should be removed.
What are the reasons for possible raw material shortages? Of course there are world shortages, although those, I think, are often given rather as an excuse than as a reason. There is a much more serious shortage—that of dollars or other hard currencies required to buy-raw materials, and those currencies can
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only be obtained by a rise in production. It is here that it is so easy to talk about substitutes. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade told us the other day how he had the wonderful idea of substituting steel for timber. But what is the good of substituting steel for timber, if the only result is a shortage of steel? Everybody knows "that timber is piling up on the Norwegian and Swedish coasts, and all that is necessary in order to get it, is to send the coal which the people in those countries want. This leads me to the whole dollar position, upon which I think the House and the country are entitled to more information than we have yet been given.
Ever since the confirmation of the American Loan by Congress we have been left in much mystery. I wish to put some questions to Ministers, and I hope that in the course of the Debate we may receive answers. How much of the American Loan or line of credit has been spent to date? [HON. MEMBERS: "That was answered yesterday."] No, not at all precisely. How long is it likely to last? What is the process of building up other dollar resources? Is the general dollar position, apart from the line of credit, better or worse than it was 18 months ago? Upon what is the loan being spent? What is the proportion between raw materials and food and capital goods and equipment? Without this information it is very hard for the country to see the picture aright. Many harsh restrictions will be justifiable if the position is deteriorating; many worse ones may have to be accepted. Are we drifting towards a siege economy in which we shall once more be bottled up in our own harbours, or are we sailing out into the open sea? On the answers to these questions must depend a sound policy for the nation to accept and to follow.
There is another form of shortage of raw materials which is really quite inexcusable. It may be the result of bad buying or of incompetent distribution. I am not so confident of the Government's capacity to buy in world markets in peace. conditions as the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends appear to be. In war conditions, under the arrangements which were made at Washington, it was much easier. First there was the great sanction or the navicert, and the command of all the shipping that could sail the seas. Those were formidable levers for

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the direction of raw materials in order to follow the needs of the Allied command. The Government seem to be in two minds about this matter. On the one hand, they have returned the buying of rubber to the free market; on the other, they propose to continue and perpetuate by law the buying of cotton under Government management. I do not understand this conflicting policy. Of course they will argue that rubber is in good supply, and therefore can be left to private handling, while cotton is in short supply. If so, why introduce legislation, such as is foreshadowed in the King's Speech? All the powers to continue the cotton control exist, and have been carried on for five years, under the Transitional Powers Act, and it is not necessary, even if a temporary need is proved, to introduce a permanent statutory system from which nothing but harm can result.
Even when we have the raw materials, are we distributing them aright? Are the controls too rigid, too slow, too complicated, with too many forms and too many details? It was my duty, for a considerable period, to serve in the Ministry of Supply, and I was very conscious that in spite of every effort, those controls were exceedingly difficult to operate with smoothness. Of course, we had some advantages; over the whole field of production the Government was almost the only buyer and the only seller, and also had a very tight control on the censorship, so that complaints were easier to deal with! Under war conditions it may have been necessary. It was certainly very difficult, and so far as we succeeded at all, it was by taking industry and commerce into our confidence, by trying to use them as the very instruments of our machine, by having the best possible relations throughout. Now all that is changed; the bureaucracy, itself the greatest devourer of manpower in the country, has complete control, and the Government alternate between appeals to and abuse of the industrialists and commercialists of this country. I say that all these things are hindrances to production. The encouragement of fuller production, not the maintenance of scarcity; the waiving of restrictive practices by trade unions; measures to control and reduce monopolistic tendencies in industry; better supply and distribution of raw materials—those, indeed, would be constructive contributions to the solution of
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the problem. To make a series of huge State monopolies is really not a cure for the drift towards monopoly. Indeed, that seems to be a kind of homeopathic economics on a fantastic scale.
There is a further point which I think in fairness ought to be mentioned. In all parties before the war our minds were concentrated upon the problem of unemployment. Perhaps we did not give enough attention to the problems which follow in the wake of full employment, because they are not inconsiderable. The old sanctions were bad, it is true; bad work was followed by dismissal, and dismissal was followed by terrible consequences for the man. But when all that is changed, we cannot close our eyes to the necessity for some form of voluntary self-discipline to replace the harsh and cruel discipline of the days of unemployment. I suggest that nationalisation is no reply. The reply lies much more in the intensive development of industrial relations in their widest sense, in a true partnership between all those engaged in industry, in full information consistently available to workers, in the development of the workers' councils and committees leaving disciplinary powers in the hands of workmen.
Nevertheless, with all these handicaps, I do not want to paint too dark a picture. The remarkable thing is that in many industries, in spite of these handicaps—psychological and material—to masters and men alike, very satisfactory improvements are being made. Nevertheless, the general need for stimulus remains, and in my view it cannot be exaggerated. As important as the removal of the psychology of the past, is the increase of incentive for the present, and for the future. Every great War imposes a vast expenditure and a corresponding staggering increase in taxation. The habits formed in war are very extravagant. The first essential is a drastic review of expenditure, both national and local. This is an essential preliminary to the reduction of taxation. No free society can tolerate taxation which in peacetime transfers so high a proportion from private to public spending. Expenditure was running in the first year after the war at the rate of £5,500,000,000, and the Estimates for this year, which is not yet completed, are at the rate of nearly £4,000,000,000 a year. This is a most formidable sum, and drastic steps should be taken to reduce it. Sooner or later, drastic measures will have to be taken

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I think that far less harm would be done to the purposes we all have in mind, if those steps were taken now, in a sensible way, with plenty of thought, rather than left to some crisis when they will have to be taken in a mood of emergency. It would be far better to move for the reduction of taxation now and it can only be achieved as a result of reduction of expenditure.
In some way or other, we all admit, both hon. Members opposite and those behind me, that the increase of the incentive to the worker at all levels of industry, from the smaller to the larger incomes, must be made. The only way that can be done is by reduction of taxation. The vicious circle of scarcity and under-production must be stopped. Once we can turn it round, and get the reverse movement going, the whole scene will change with startlingly increased momentum. Less taxation will increase production, and production will make available more consumer goods. Thus, out of the increased production, exports can be raised, and the balance of international payments met in due course. Of course, I know that it is only after the Election that Ministers think exports to be at all important. Before the Election, the need for exports was described by the Minister of Health as:
"a twist of the Tory mind."
Perhaps the President of the Board of Trade will have a word with him afterwards. The Minister of Fuel told us before the Election:
"There was never a greater fallacy than the demand for increased exports."
I am bound to say that he is one of the few Ministers who has conscientiously carried out his pledges.
To sum up, this Government of so called planners does not really plan at all. It just drifts aimlessly along. It may well be that at the present level of production, or any level of production we can reasonably hope for, we are attempting more than can be accomplished. We are trying to build millions of houses, schools, hospitals, clinics and training colleges. We are trying to put in terms of money, more important, in terms of labour and materials, huge amounts into the coal industry, £120,000,000 into transport, into the reconstruction of the steel industry and the cotton industry, and are
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developing agriculture, water supplies, electricity and all the rest. We are trying, at the same time, to raise internal standards of living, and to develop social services. It is becoming more and more apparent that we have risked the chance of achieving anything effective by attempting too much. This was the precise situation in the early months of the war, when the claims of the chiefs of staff of the three Services, added together, made demands far more than the total resources of the nation could supply.
What did my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition then do? He had to make a plan, a programme, an allocation, and provide a system of priorities and allocations. Of course it all took time, and many mistakes were made. But these are the functions of government. If the Government would concentrate on them, and leave these other matters alone, they would be more successful. Of course it is difficult. Many hon. Members will remember the great battle of priorities, and what catches, dangers, and pitfalls there were. This reminds me of a story I heard on my first visit to Russia, in 1929, when there were queues for everything. It was the first time I had seen such long queues, but I have become more accustomed to them since then. One of the stories going around was of a queue of immense length outside a shop. A man came up with a piece of paper on which was written, "Get out of my way. I have a special permit not to stand in the queue." People in the queue said to him, "You silly fool, this is the queue of people who have special permits not to stand in the queue." Such are the problems of priority.
It is really necessary to make a plan, a master plan. This is the acknowledged function of government, but the planners have failed, and all they can do is to trot out some old, out-moded Socialist ideas of nationalisation for setting up State monopolies in a few selected industries. What relation has this to the great problem of the day—"produce, or perish"? That is the problem which confronts us today. One is almost forced to the suspicion that they still hesitate to tell the people the truth. Ministers must know the magnitude of the dangers which approach us, but their pronouncements alter with irritating inconsistency, from the most pessimistic to the most rosy tints. It may be that they feel that only by obscuring

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the truth and organising scarcity can they rivet these Victorian doctrines on the people. At all events, there can be no doubt of this, that the Measures proposed in the Gracious Speech to deal with the approaching crisis are puny and irrelevant. They are like the croaking of frogs in the treacherous calm, soon to be overwhelmed by the crashing thunder of the storm.
4.20 p.m.
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan), in moving the Amendment of the official Opposition, has delivered a speech of a mixed variety. I think I can say for my hon. Friends, that there were substantial portions of and items in that speech which we welcome; I think we agree that there were also parts which we do not welcome, and which we do not think fit into the other observations which he made. We have been accustomed for a long time to being criticised and denounced by the Conservative Party for planning. There have been sneers at the planners, there has been deprecation of economic planning, there has been an assumption that economic planning, in itself, is unnecessary, objectionable and a meticulous and needless interference by the State with the activities of private industrial enterprise. But the right hon. Gentleman says "I do not complain that you are planning; I complain that you are not planning enough, we want more planning." Whether that observation is made authoritatively on behalf of the Conservative Party I do not know. It is like many more observations of the right hon. Gentleman, some of which are of a distinctly Socialistic flavour. During those observations of the right hon. Gentleman I was watching the faces of the hon. Members behind him. I am bound to say that they were somewhat mixed in expression. Some, I think-, wondered where he was getting to, and I thought, how long would the right hon. Gentleman be sitting there? But if it is any comfort to him, I will add that there were a few, quite a few—
Mr. Eden: Fifty-three?
Mr. Morrison: Not as many as that—who really did manifest some pleasure at the Socialistic observations which he was making.
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I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the story of unemployment in relation to Governments and political parties in the past has not been a happy one. It befogged, bemused and made miserable during the years between the wars the lives of all of us in all political parties. He is quite right that the new state of mind must be, not so much that of finding work for the unemployed but rather that of facing the problem in the spirit of "How much can we produce," and, I would say, what he did not add, "How well, how equitably and how fairly can we distribute what we produce among the population of our country." But the right hon. Gentleman is right on the first point, that the problem is one of production, and it is necessary that all of us, whether politicians or employers or workpeople, must put behind ourselves the old scarcity economics.
In the years between the wars both capital and labour were afraid of production. Capital feared what was called "over-production," and, therefore, a collapse in prices, and labour feared that the job might come to an end. It will not be easy to get rid of this psychology, either on the part of employers or workpeople, but it must go, and we must substitute for the economics of scarcity, the economics of plenty. Far from being afraid to produce, we must go all out for production, realising that production is the essential foundation, not only of prosperity in the factory, but of prosperity in the social services and the development of the social life of our people. So we are replacing that old problem of finding work for the unemployed by the other problem of how best to use the total available force of manpower in the public interest. The right hon. Gentleman is quite right. We must face these problems with fresh and open minds, and I hope that his colleagues who sit with him, and those who act with the Conservative Party outside, will do their best. I know that it is a task and problem for them to face these problems with a fresh and open mind. How right the right hon. Gentleman is in saying that we must not develop a theory and try to make the facts fit it, but rather get the facts right and let the doctrine rest upon the facts. I couple that with another assertion which I will make-—but which he did not—a determination to try to alter facts that are wrong, bad and contrary to the public

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interest. We agree that we must not be dominated by theory.
The right hon. Gentleman is also quite right in saying that Ministers are facing a gigantic task. We are, and we not only know now, but we knew before the General Election that whatever Government was in power would be facing most difficult and complex tasks. In fact, I remember a conversation with colleagues in the Coalition Government of the right hon. Gentleman who is now the Leader of the Opposition, in which some of us, who were gathered outside the Cabinet room waiting for the Cabinet meeting, were sympathising with each other. We happened to have a lot of headaches then, as we often had—very difficult problems to solve and it was not clear what to do about them. We were sympathising with each other, and feeling a bit sorry for ourselves. I said, "Cheer up. Whatever may be the headaches of this Government, they are nothing to the headaches that will confront the Government that faces the problems of economic transition, after the war, from war to peace." I added, "It may be—naughty thought though it is—that whoever is in the Government in that time, will wish to goodness that they were back running an honest war once more, without the complications of peacetime political life and the greater and wider demand of the public for things, which very naturally and properly the public was quite prepared to let go by in the dangers and stress of war." Therefore, these headaches and problems are no surprise. Any Government that exists at this time is bound to have a pretty busy and difficult life.
The right hon. Gentleman, like many of his friends, persists in saying that at the Election we put before the people the idea that everything would be easy, that all they had to do was to vote Labour, return a Socialist Government and everything else would be added unto them. That is quite wrong. I speak for myself, and I know that I speak for my hon. Friends, one of whom, the other week, quoted his own Election address. Such quotations destroy the idea that we led the country to believe that everything would be simple. Not only in my own constituency of East Lewisham, formerly a Conservative stronghold, but in other parts of the
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country, Labour candidates painted a picture of difficulty, complications and grave problems, and said, "Make no mistake about it, this transition will not be easy, and we shall need all the efforts of the people successfully to get through.
Mr. Thomas Reid: It is in Let us Face the Future."
Mr. Morrison: I am coming to that. I only mention this point because it is constantly being affirmed that we misled the country and it is the reverse of the truth. On Page 2 of "Let us Face the Future" this was said:
"The Labour Party makes no baseless promises. The future will not be easy."
[Laughter.] This confutation of these repeated allegations may be inconvenient to hon. Members opposite, but it had better be put on the record. On page 3 it said:
"We need the spirit of Dunkirk and of the blitz sustained over a period of years."
It went on to say:
"The Labour Party programme…calls' for hard work, energy, and sound sense."
There was nothing in here which said, "All you need to do is to vote Labour, and everything will come all right." n fact, for myself, I have never advocated such a view at any Election because it is contrary to our conception of democracy. Democracy is not a matter merely of returning a Government, after which everybody can go slack. Democracy is a matter of national effort, national will, and cooperation between the people and the Government of the day if the Government are pursuing a progressive policy.
The right hon. Gentleman said that, as it is now 18 months after these events, the Amendment is well timed. Well, it is well timed, as far as we are concerned. When the Conservative Party candidate in a working-class constituency has just lost his deposit, I am not going to quarrel about the timing.
Mr. Eden: Wait until tomorrow.
Mr. Morrison: I agree—wait until tomorrow. We shall see what happens. I have had enough election experience never to talk before the hour has struck, but I can speak about a case in which the hour has already struck with good effect. The right hon. Gentleman said the Government are being assaulted from all quarters, right, left and centre, and

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from behind as well. He ought to know about stabbing a Government in the back. He ought to know—he used to sit over there below the Gangway and he did his share of making himself a nuisance to a Conservative Government and I know what some of the Ministers thought about him. They thought that that was "stabbing in the back." Was he not known as one of the prominent members of the "Y.M.C.A. group" of that time? I do not want to rub in the point, but some of the right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite were members of that Government. The right hon. Gentleman therefore should not say these things because he has a very, very bad record in that respect.
I am making these observations before I come to the main part of my speech, which, I agree, ought to be expository of the situation and of Government policy, because I think we had better get these few pleasantries over first. The right hon. Gentleman said, "Why do you not get on with the work in hand and stop pursuing these ideas of the public ownership of the railways and inland transport?" He said, in relation to the railways, that we have got the war-time control powers, and asked why we did not continue them. I am bound to say that it is "a new one" from the Conservative Front Bench that we should continue the war-time powers of control. I think the war-time powers of control were necessary and right, but I do not believe that the use of them is the right way in which to run an industry, especially in times of peace. We want something more free, something more positive, and more responsible. But the right hon. Gentleman says, "Continue the war-time controls pending an inquiry." I will come to the question of an inquiry in a minute. It does not seem to be necessary in view of what the right hon. Gentleman himself has said in the past. He also says that we should not touch road haulage, that we should leave it alone. He says there is no need to socialise electricity, that it will cause difficulties of one sort or another, and he condemned with great vigour this series of State monopolies which he said cannot do any good.
This is where I cannot follow the right hon. Gentleman. He was Socialistic earlier on in his speech and again later on, but
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at that point he became anti-Socialist. He says, "You ought not to establish these State monopolies." There was a book published years ago. I am not referring to the one which the right hon. Gentleman wrote alone. I have not got that by me. It will serve for another occasion. But there was a book called, "The Next Five Years." A number of people of various parties got together and produced an exceedingly interesting report of a possible programme in the national interest for the following five years. I was invited to join the group, but I never rush into coalitions if I can help it, and I kept out of this one.
Mr. Sydney Silverman:. What was the date of the book?
Mr. Morrison: It was published in 1935. Perhaps because I was not a party to it, I can the more freely say there was a good deal of value in the book. The right hon. Gentleman was one of the leaders of the assembly of people who worked on that book. He was a signatory to the book. Indeed, he was a member of the inner Cabinet—of the drafting committee. Therefore, he was in on the ground floor. What did he say about these two industries which, as the Gracious Speech has announced, are going to be nationalised? He said, or the book said:
"The last group of industries is composed of those suitable for complete socialisation. We suggest that it should include such industries as transport, electricity supply, some forms of insurance"—
Well, even we have not got that far yet—
"the manufacture of armaments, etc."
It added:
"Transport is an obvious example. So far as the railways are concerned, socialisation would present few difficulties and few advantages."
Mr. Quintin Hogg: Oh.
Mr. Morrison: I am always delighted to hear the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg); he is such a delightful representative of the Oxford Union but he will barge in too quickly and too indiscreetly. I repeat the sentence in order that he may be merry again:
"So far as the railways are concerned, socialisation would present few difficulties and few advantages. But the time is fast approaching when the whole transport system needs coordinating."
In its context we know what that meant.

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It went on:
"Electricity is another case for early socialisation."
This was in 1935. We are now in 1946.
Sir Arthur Salter: Would the right hon. Gentleman permit me?
Mr. Morrison: The right hon. Gentleman the senior Burgess for Oxford University was in this too.
Sir A. Salter: Yes. I too was a member of the Committee which drafted that book. I was also chairman of the Road-Rail Conference which made recommendations for assisting coordination. These were the subject of legislation and are now in operation, but they are a form of "coordination," not of nationalisation, of both sections of the transport system.
Mr. Morrison: I must leave it there. I am quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman would wish to help a Conservative Front Bencher if he possibly could. He may be right. He should know better than I, because, as I say, I was not in the group. But if the idea was that there should be some bureaucratic tie-up between road and rail, and a system of State regulation superimposed upon them, I am bound to say that is the worst possible thing to do. Of course, I accept what the right hon. Gentleman says, but there is no doubt about the Socialistic character of this observation. He took the nationalisation of the railways in his stride. Then it went on:
"Electricity is another case for early socialisation. One large part…"
Mr. McGhee: What is the other case?
Mr. Morrison: The railways. I proceed:
"Electricity is another case for early socialisation. One large part of the industry, the distribution of electrical energy from the generator to the Authorised Undertaker, is already socialised"—
By the way, that was done by a Conservative Government in 1926—
"and the intervention of the State has greatly increased the technical efficiency of the industry. But the distributing side is still, in parts of the country, in a state of confusion comparable to that of the generating side before the advent of the grid."
That was in 1935, and, indeed, it had to be done at an early date, but, according to the right hon. Gentleman, that date is
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too early in the year 1946. I am bound to say that I do not follow the argument. But the right hon. Gentleman is not the only one. Let not his Conservative friends blame him for this lapse from grace because his own present leader—who has now left our deliberations in accordance with his usual practice—in November, 1918, said much the same thing. By 1918, he had covered what is now in the King's Speech in respect of socialisation. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, in a very reputable organ of that time, the "Morning Post," now unhappily merged in the "Daily Telegraph," on 19th November, 1918, said this in opening his General Election campaign:
"As to the other aspects of the programme there are two main matters on which we must fix our eyes. The first is the revival of prosperity not only in manufacture, but in agriculture, and increasing the total productivity of the country, and a rapid increase must be effected unless all classes are to be condemned to privation and discontent."
I think that is remarkably like the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley to-day, but the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition continued:
'I agree with Mr. Barnes"—
not my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport, but an earlier Mr. Barnes—
"and other Labour men in thinking that a great measure of public control in regard to monopolies, especially the basic services of transport and power, must be an essential feature of our future action. Now is the time to house the nation as it should be housed. Now is the time to take every acre of land towards the general welfare."
Transport and electricity were ripe in 1918 for public control, and yet, according to this Amendment, it is premature in the year 1946. I see the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition returning to his place. It is very sad, but it is too late. I agree with the right hon. Member for Bromley that the mood of restric-tionism must go, and the mood of economic expansion must come, and if he will confer with his right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) to get a little less restriction-ism in the eleotrical plant manufacturing industry, a little less price restriction, a little less of quotations of tenders at exactly the same price, it would be a good thing. I suggest that the right hon. Member for Aldershot should take what was

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said by his right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley about restrictionism to his electrical friends with whom he is so happily and prosperously living at the present time—
Mr. Oliver Lyttelton: If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to suggest that there is any restriction of production other than that imposed by the Government, I am afraid he is mistaken
Mr. Morrison: If the right hon. Gentleman wants to argue one of these days about restrictionism and price-fixing and cartel operations in the electrical lamp manufacturing and electrical plant manufacturing industries I am ready for him at any time I am already fully briefed, and I recommend the right hon. Gentleman to get briefed as soon as he can.
Mr. Churchill: It seems to me, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that we are now thrown into a personal attack upon my right hon. Friend, with many insinuations and threats, and I submit to you that, if these personal matters and attacks on hon. Members and their personal conduct are to be introduced in a Debate on these large topics, the matter must be carried further. I do not consider—and I put it to you, Sir—that this sort of charge and insinuation should be flung out across the Table. even by one who, while leading the House, has never ceased to stoop to the lowest level—[Interruption.]
Mr. Morrison: I am within the recollection of the House. I do not think that I made any personal attack upon any hon. Member, and I do not think that I would wish to do so. The right hon. Gentleman and I have had happy relations in, the past. I can only say that, when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley condemns restrictionism in industry and the operations of cartels, I am entitled to invite him to reconcile that argument with the daily experience of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot. I was giving an illustration, and the Conservative Party and the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, whom I am very glad to see back in his place, must not be too touchy He knocks other people about with great vigour.
Mr. Churchill: I really submit to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that I do not knock people about, concerning their personal private affairs, or attack their private
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business. If that has to be done, it should be done in a formal manner, just as, when there is a difference with the Chair, there is a formal method by which that matter can be raised. There are no secrets in this House, and there ought not to be. I heard the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House declare that he is fully armed with a brief which he will explode against my right hon. Friend. I think that, in making a statement of that kind, he should either stop short, or go much further.
Mr. Morrison: The right hon. Gentleman comes in all of a sudden and before he has been here two minutes he must start this kind of thing, when he does not know what happened. I am concerned with public policy in industrial problems. I make no charge, and made no charge, of impropriety. [Interruption.] Well, is it a charge of impropriety that the right hon. Gentleman should be prosperous?
Mr. Churchill rose—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): We cannot have two right hon. Gentlemen on their feet talking at the same time.
Mr. Churchill: I want to raise this matter. I cannot say that it is a matter of Order, but it is a matter of procedure. It I am right—and I am in the recollection of the House—I distinctly heard the Leader of the House suggest that the right hon. Gentleman, in his private capacity, was engaged in an improper—[HON. MEMBERS:"NO."] On this point, which I submit to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I suggest that personal charges reflecting upon my right hon. Friends in their individual capacities should certainly not be excluded from our discussions, but should be made on the proper occasion, with proper notice and with all the formalities attaching to that class of attack.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: As far as I understand, the point submitted by the right hon. Gentleman is not a point of Order in itself. It is not for the Chair to curb the cut and thrust of debate. May I suggest that it would be to the advantage of all if we now proceeded with the Debate?
Mr. Lyttelton: May we come back to the facts for a moment? The insinuation which the right hon. Gentleman

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made, and which I refuted, was that the electrical industry is engaged in a restriction of production. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If it is a matter of price, then the subject would be entirely irrelevant to this Debate. We are now talking about production. I think that the OFFICIAL REPORT will clear up the point. My recollection is clear; the insinuation which the right hon. Gentleman made was that I was engaged, in my private capacity,, in restricting production in order to keep up prices. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] All I can say is that I do not agree, and that we had better get the point explained accurately. There is no restriction of production in the electrical industry at all—we cannot produce enough.
Mr. Morrison: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman—
Mr. Assheton: Put down a Motion.
Mr. Morrison: There is no Motion to put down.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think it would be to the advantage of the Debate if there are fewer comments addressed and all remarks should be addressed to the Chair.
Mr. Churchill: On a point of Order. Am I to gather from your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that general comments in Debate cannot be made, unless they are first put through the agency of the Chair?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: No. That was not the intention or purpose of my remark. The Debate is in danger of getting out of hand. It would be to the advantage of all if we now proceeded in the normal way.
Mr. Morrison: I was in process of saying that I was much obliged to the right hon. Member for Aldershot for bringing us back to the point of the controversy. I am sure that he will find he is mistaken in thinking that, in this connection, I was making the allegation that the electrical plant and lamp manufacturers were restricting production. What I was saying was that the electrical plant and lamp manufactur2rs had price agreements, and agreements about handling of tenders for public contracts, which I regard in the nature of a restrictionist practice. [An
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HON. MEMBER: "Restriction of what?"] Price restrictions; minimum restrictions on prices. If it is agreed among the manufacturers that lamps shall not be sold by any manufacturer below a certain price, and if it is agreed that when they put in tenders for public contracts to the British Government, local authorities, or Dominion Governments, they will agree among themselves who shall put in the contract and that the price shall not be below a certain figure, that, in my judgment, is a restrictionist practice. The point that I was making in relation to the speech of the right hon. Member for Bromley, who had condemned all restrictionist practices, was that he had better reconcile himself with the right hon. Member for Aldershot. Any idea that I wanted to make a personal attack upon the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot is quite wrong, and he himself has brought us back to the real issue in dispute. If he wishes, he can take part in the Debate tomorrow when HANSARD is available.
There is—and this has been revealed by the spokesman for the Opposition—no argument about the national need for increased production. This is a cause which unites all parties, not only in the object, but to an encouragingly large extent in the manner of its achievement. The right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) said in this House:
"We will support the Government on what they have said and are doing with regard to the increased production drive, because we know it to be absolutely essential in our national interest."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Thursday, 14th November. 1946; Vol. 430, c. 255.]
I agree with what the right hon. Gentleman said and we welcome that observation. I think that it is for all parties and everybody in industry to further that point of view. But formal endorsements of the production drive are not enough. This is a battle which the nation has to win unless it is to go down. In such a battle, moral is all-important. Moral is not helped by defeatist utterances and articles. The output of misery does not need stepping up any further. If I may say so, there is, in a number of quarters, too much of the spread of depression and misery, whereas what the nation needs is encouragement to go all out in the production drive. By all means let us have hard criticism;

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I only ask that it should be constructive. The right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington made a critical speech at Newcastle on Saturday, but a great deal of it was constructive criticism and I do not complain of it. But we have a right to expect that, while making their criticisms, as they have a right to do, the Opposition will also themselves help to speed up the production drive which they welcome. I am not always clear whether they are helping in the production drive or not.
The Government aim to arrange early next year a full-dress Debate in the House on the economic conditions and prospects of the country, and I think that that will be welcomed in all quarters. That Debate will be preceded by a White Paper, and will enable the House to take stock of the national position in the light of a more comprehensive economic survey than has hitherto been made available. I ask that all of us. in all parts of the House, should seek to make ourselves ready for this economic Debate which I hope will be a big occasion. It ought to be an economic inquest on the nation, and it should be an occasion on which all of us seek to make constructive suggestions and to propound constructive policies for the economic advantage of the nation as a whole.. Therefore, the Government look forward to it as an occasion on which the House can survey the whole economic field; our resources in manpower and production and the use of those resources, our balance of payments, our investment policy in relation to current consumption, and so forth. At the present stage, before we have either the completed figures for 1946 or the revised forecasts for 1947, it will be more profitable to concentrate on reviewing the problem of increased production and the methods by which the Government are assisting it.
When the war ended, the Government's first task in restoring the peace economy was to release from the Forces, by fair and efficient means, as many men as could be spared in the existing state of the world, and, at the same time, to return to civilian use requisitioned factories and other productive equipment. This process has almost reached a stage where no further substantial net additions to our productive resources can be looked for from it. Unfortunately, although inevitably, the workers released from the Forces
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and from munitions have not all represented a net gain to civil production.
On the other side of the balance sheet, there have been heavy losses. Many elderly persons and women war workers have withdrawn from industry. The Armed Forces themselves, while they are giving many men back, are also taking a number of young men out who represent a toll on industry which is new since 1939. Next year there will be a further offset through the withdrawal of juveniles between 14 and 15 years old That, of course, is an investment for the future, but it all adds to the present difficulties of increasing production, which has been urged by the right hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate.
However, very large numbers of men and women and factories and other premises have been returned to civil production. Some people still seem to imagine that the day after a man is demobilised we should expect to see in the shops some badly wanted article which he has made by some magic means without any allowance for demobilisation leave, recruitment into industry, and training or re-training, not to speak of all the long processes of rebuilding smooth working production teams, retooling factories, refilling pipelines from the works through the wholesaler to the shop counter, and above all re-starting the flow of raw materials from distant lands We must not overlook that although re-armament was reported by the then Government to be well advanced by the time war broke out in 1939, it was another four years before we attained the peak of our war production and for more than half of that period the flow of war output was very small indeed, as I found when I reached the Ministry of Supply in 1940.
So it is not surprising that even now, more than a year after V.J. Day, our productive machine is by no means fully run in to peacetime requirements Some people talk—unhelpfully, I think—as if things were going badly all along the line. That is not so. When I held a Press conference last month on the production drive, I gave many instances of civilian industries which are now producing at or above prewar levels. But, as one would expect, the performance is very uneven. Some industries, such as those producing hardware, hollow-ware and all kinds of electrical equipment.

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were well placed for reconversion. They had not much retooling to do and they had their labour and materials all ready. They went to it most creditably—[Interruption]—I was not on that point.
Mr. Churchill: The right hon. Gentleman had that written down beforehand.
Mr. Morrison: It is true. That does not divert me from the point I made about price control. If the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford will do me the honour of reading my speech tomorrow, he will in due course get the point I was making. As I was saying, they went to it most creditably, with the result that the ironmongers' and electricians' shops are well filled—[Interruption]—at a price. On the other hand, the textile industries had a totally different problem. Many of their mills had been requisitioned for other purposes. Their labour forces had been dissipated, and their equipment and labour conditions were badly out of date. Other industries again, such as furniture and motorcars have been badly held back by lack of raw materials. There is nothing peculiar to Britain in these conditions. The Russian building industry, in a land which contains a large part of the world's timber resources, is struggling with acute timber supply difficulties just as we are. The American motorcar industry is much worse hit than ours has been.
I would like to illustrate these problems by the worrying and anxious example of steel. There has been a good deal of criticism over the shortage of steel in this country. But that shortage in its present form is, of course, due to factors which neither the Government nor the British iron and steel industry can control. In all probability effective home demand alone—without taking exports into account at all—could be put at about 16 million ingot tons of steel a year. We have never used that much steel in any year either in war or peace. The production of sheet steel is actually at record prewar level. Total home steel production so far during 1946 has been running at about 12.7 million tons a year. We had planned to supplement this home production, as we did during the war. by substantial imports. We have been unable, however, to get more than half a million tons at the outside this year because, contrary to expectation, the huge American steel industry, which, unlike ours, was
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greatly expanded during the war, is proving even more unequal than ours to coping with its home demand. The American automobile industry recently reported that it was obtaining only 50 per cent. of its requirements, and the United States Government had to reimpose their wartime Government priority system for steel from the beginning of October, and to limit exports. So, although the United States production is running at about 80 million tons a year compared with a maximum before the war of 51 million tons, we are unable to get effective help from them in bridging our gap.
I understand that one of the great Ford factories has had to close down for the time being. Australia and South Africa are going through much the same experience in relation to iron and steel, and much the same applies to Canada, where strikes have reduced production; while the difficulties of the European steel industries are well known.
The Government, in the circumstances, are doing all they can to help the industry by preferential treatment over coal, by subsidies for the use of marginal capacity and for abnormal transport movements to enable the fullest use to be made of productive capacity, and by other measures, such as assistance in manning up the under-manned sections of the industry, including iron foundries and the older sheet and tinplate mills.
As I explained, the disappointing quantity of steel supplies has been mainly due to imports not being available to us. The Government have machinery to ensure the fairest possible distribution of all available steel supplies in the best interests of the national economy, but this rationing is much more difficult than in war-time because of the great variety of industrial demand and the wide variety of kinds and forms of steel which play an essential part in the long range plans of so many different industries. Steel exports have been brought down to rock bottom.
The general rule applied is that no steel will be exported at present, except in cases where failure to export would injure the wider interests of the United Kingdom's economy. New steel-making capacity would be impoverished otherwise, as the House will understand. Complete new steel plants take, at least, from two to three years to build. It is

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the duty of the newly established Iron and Steel Board to cope with developments, and the Government will give them all possible support in doing so. Many schemes have already been approved and are actually in execution, but the six-year gap in the development of the industry cannot be made good in a short time. There have, necessarily, been great dislocations and great time lags in getting the flow of goods through to the home consumers and to the export markets. These time lags, however, have been less than those experienced in turning over to war production, and the dislocations have been nothing like as severe as those being suffered by both Canada and the United States, for example.
Too little credit, I think, has been given for the pace which has been successfully maintained in the development of our industry. Too little credit has been given, perhaps, for the state of peace which has been maintained, as well as the pace, in British industry. Both sides are fully entitled to their share of credit for the high degree of peace which has been maintained in industry. It is true that there have been some annoying unofficial disputes, but taking our state of industry by and large, and the great transformations that have had to take place, it is an extraordinary tribute to the good sense of both employers and trade union leaders that there has been so little disturbance in the industrial world. Despite all these strains, peace has been achieved by the efforts of the trade unions and the employers, and of the Government themselves, including, if I may say so, the efforts and diplomacy of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.
While the war has destroyed or worn out so much of our capital at home, and taken from us so much of our wealth overseas, it has not left us with more modest demands on our more straitened circumstances. On the contrary, whether we think of our national requirements in terms of consumer demands or in terms of social services, health services, education, or new plant, and equipment for industry itself, not to speak of overseas relief and political and military commitments, we find that, wherever we look, our national expectations, and ideas of what we need, have expanded even more than our capacity to meet requirements has shrunk. It is, in a way, one of the inevitable conse-
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quences of full employment that there should be expansion of demand, and it is welcome that there should be that expansion of effective demand; but, inevitably, the demands present us with headaches and problems in this period of stringency at the present time. It would be a big task merely to make good all the destruction and omissions of the war period, but that is only a small part of what the nation expects. What is expected is, that we should not only make up for the destruction and neglect of the war, but, also, that we should make good all that was not done during the inter-war period, and even the omissions of the years before 1914. If we take the Development Areas, for example, or the coalmining and cotton industries, everyone knows that the big deficiencies at these points are the results of not modernising, and of not investing new capital in the right way, for decades past. We are accumulating, in part, the results of decades of neglect and deterioration.
Mr. Lyttelton: And unfair competition.
Mr. Morrison: And now we have to do it in double quick time, while overcoming the natural result—the bitterness and frustration due to chronic mass unemployment.
Mr. Walter Fletcher: The right hon. Gentleman is including the cotton industry in his line of argument. He cannot have looked at the working party's report on the cotton industry, for which he is partially responsible. It says:
"The trouble with the cotton industry in the inter-war years was primarily due to the impact of external shocks with which no industry, however efficient, by its own efforts could have coped."
Mr. Morrison: Credit should belong where it is due, and the credit for the appointment of the working party belongs entirely to my right hon. and learned Friend the President of the Board of Trade.
Mr. Churchill: What about what they say?
Mr. Morrison: The working party writes its own report; and, certainly, among other things, one of the problems of the cotton industry, and of a number of other industries, is the problem of international competition. There have been, in fact, so many inquiries into the cotton industry

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that we are all getting a bit weary of them; and that is why my right hon. and learned Friend is bringing in a Bill to enable that working party's report to be implemented, among others.
Mr. W. Fletcher: What about the substance?
Mr. Morrison: But it is true that the equipment of the British cotton industry—and it is admitted by the industry itself, I think—is a very serious matter. It is not what they would like it to be; and the same is true of a number of other industries. Now, no peacetime Government of this country have ever before provided national machinery to help in increasing production. The Government are providing national machinery for assisting and increasing production. We have, as I have shown already, provided much of the necessary basis for increased production by the smooth and efficient demobilisation of the forces; by freeing factory space; by maintaining a stable cost of living; by making possible industrial peace; and by the utmost practical removal of economic controls, particularly in manpower, the export industries, and of those raw materials which are in adequate supply. We are also creating new constitutional administrative machinery to assist production.
I have already touched on the Government's economic survey and planning work, and the coming economic White Paper. In addition, the Minister- of Labour has reconstituted the National Joint Advisory Council. This body is showing very great promise. It includes representatives of the Employers' Confederation, and of the Trades Union Congress; and Ministers of the Crown regularly attend the meetings. We are conveying to the Council all the necessary information on economic facts and economic progress, and the result is that both the employers and the workpeople, in consultation with the Government, are increasingly getting economic knowledge and a background, which is of the utmost assistance to them in seeing to it that their own negotiations and relations are developed to the maximum degree in accordance with the national interest. We are making of this body an active and vital top-level body for consultation between organised labour, organised employers, and the Government, on all matters affect-
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ing the economic background in the relations between employers and employed. We hope that, before long, this National Joint Advisory Council will be playing a decisive part in ensuring that the Government and both sides of industry march together in furthering clearly understood and agreed aims in the common interest of workers and employers.
Apart from the relations between employers and employed, there is a wide sphere of problems affecting managements and workers which is covered by the National Production Advisory Council on Industry, under my right hon. and learned Friend the President of the Board of Trade. This Council includes representatives of managements and workers, together with the chairmen of the regional boards for industry covering the whole country. Those regional boards have a big future before them, in our opinion; they are bodies which know the conditions and problems of industry in each region, and each represents both sides of industry and the Government in the regions under an independent chairman in each case. We are arranging to improve the two-way contact between the regions and the Government through the regional boards, and to give them the material assistance they need for the purposes of the production drive.
The production drive, as the House will recall, started with the Debate of 27th and 28th February last, and with a national broadcast by the Prime Minister on 3rd March. Its first phase consisted of a series of meetings between Ministers and representatives of both sides of industry, at which there was a valuable interchange of views, and the general proposition that standards of living depend on production, and that, therefore, production must be increased, was agreed all round. At the next stage, the message was broadcast more widely and in rather more concrete form, particularly through the posters which are now up all over the country and in factories, and also through the excellent short film from the Central Office of Information which is now being shown in cinemas. If desired, I will get this film, and other films of an economic character, shown to hon. Members of the House. There have also, of course, been many meetings, Press conferences, and so forth, and a leaflet has

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been issued which has been circulated to all Members of the House and widespread throughout the country.
The Government regard what has so fax been done as merely the laying of the foundations for the more intensive production drive that is still to come. This further drive must be specific and concrete. It must deal with the problems of industry, industry by industry, and region by region. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power has already launched his publicity campaign. [Laughter] That laughter shows a spirit of scorn which is really not in the national interest. It is that spirit of scorn which almost expresses a hope that this production drive will fail. It is a manifestation of irresponsibility and is really to be deplored. [Interruption.] I say again that it is exactly that spirit to which I referred earlier when I said that it is not enough for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington to indicate the desirability of all parties helping in the production drive. It is important that they should do it, and not merely sit and sneer at the efforts which the production drive is seeking to make. I repeat that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power has already launched his publicity campaign for production in the coal mines, and the results, so far as can yet be seen, are encouraging.
The Government will increasingly assist industry in all appropriate ways to raise production, but do not let us forget that raising production is, primarily, a responsibility of both sides of industry itself, and that it is just as important for managers and workers to do their part as for the Government to do theirs. It is a poor service to democracy to talk in one breath about too much Government control and nationalisation and, in the next, to speak as if the Government were directly responsible for every shirt that is not produced. The Opposition Amendment suggests that nationalisation must confuse and retard recovery. Where is the evidence of this? No evidence has been produced; I have listened most carefully—and if I may say so, most courteously—to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley and he did not produce evidence that industry is being retarded by the socialisation of certain basic and key industries. Indeed, the Government themselves have taken the
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greatest care to avoid giving any reasonable ground for confusion. It is not true to say that the Government are leaving industry in a state of confusion and uncertainty as to the industries which will be nationalised. In a statement made on 19th November, 1945, I indicated, on behalf of the Government, the scope of the nationalisation plans to be put into effect during the present Parliament. That was done for the precise purpose of removing any uncertainty in the industrial world.
Mr. Jennings: How many statements have been made on steel?
Mr. Morrison: Most of the statements on steel have been made at the request of the Opposition. Transport and electricity, which were mentioned in the Gracious Speech, were included in the programme which I announced in November, 1945. That statement said that the position of the iron and steel industry was still under consideration, and when the Government had made up their minds as to the general lines and intentions about this, a statement was promptly made by the Minister of Supply, on 17th April, 1946. Now it is said that the details of the iron and steel proposals ought to be available. I made the statement of principle and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply made a statement in some degree of detail, but it is clearly not appropriate that further details should be given until the Bill is produced. It is extraordinary how many people, not only on the Right but some innccent people on the Left, are walking about assuming that there will not be a Bill for public ownership of the iron and steel industry. I would like to assure everybody, from the far Left to the far Right, that the Bill is coming all right. The iron and steel industry will be dealt with in accordance with the principles and the policy we set out in "Let us Face the Future" at the General Election. I say that, because it seems to me a great pity that some newspapers and politicians of the Right should be under the delusion that the Government have retreated from their position on iron and steel. We have not done so and we do not propose to do so. [An HON. MEMBER: "You have got the wind up."] We have not got the wind up; we are going on. It is the Opposition who have the wind up.

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Where there has been any uncertainty as to the Government's intentions, wherever it manifested itself, specific statements have been made—as in the case of the cotton industry, which the President of the Board of Trade explained at the opening of the last Session, was not to be nationalised. My statement on 19th November, 1945, said specifically that it was not proposed to nationalise the shipping industry, and in reply to supplemen-taries I explained that it was not proposed to nationalise coastwise shipping. The Government have, therefore, done everything in their power to explain with precision the scope of their nationalisation proposals, and there is no justification for any allegation that the Government are leaving industry in a state of uncertainty on this score. Never were a Government more considerate, honest and forthright about their intentions in this sphere.
In coal, large-scale rationalisation of the mines was long overdue. Surely it must be admitted that nationalisation was the only practicable means of achieving it. Everything else had been tried; private enterprise, the State control of 1914–1918, the State control of the late war, and other efforts, and in the end you could not get technical consolidation and progress in that industry except by public enterprise and public ownership. Coalmining was the most conspicuous instance of the failure of management to keep the confidence of workers and to create a spirit of effective team work. The new Board is again the only practical approach. It is really visionary and dogmatic to imagine that the mine owners, in view of their past, could ever have done it, even if they had seriously wanted to do it.
In electricity, public ownership again is a question of practical commonsense. It is, in my judgment, the most simple, the most straightforward and complete case for public ownership. I cannot conceive that it will do other than improve the condition of that industry and the service to the nation. We ought to give a better electricity supply to the rural and sparsely populated areas, which either cannot get it, or in many cases have it at very great cost. The Conservatives were forced to set up the Central Electricity Board, and its grid, without which we might have lost the war. They did it because, in their judgment, they could not leave the generating side of the industry where it
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was. I am perfectly certain that the Conservative Government would not have faced all the trouble they had to face, with the vested interests on the back benches and the opposition of reactionary and vested interests in the industry, had they not felt that they were forced to do it. They had a lot of trouble about it, so much so that the Minister of Transport of the day had to be supplemented by the then Attorney-General. If I may say so, the father of the hon. Member for Oxford conducted the Bill with very great ability.
In gas, the case for public ownership was made most effectively by a Committee on the reorganisation of the gas industry appointed by the Coalition, under the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Pembroke (Major Lloyd George). The leading transport authorities agreed that we could not leave the transport industry where it was, and the only question which has ensued is whether the railway companies and the road haulage people shall come to an arrangement among themselves, which means agreement as to haulages and so on, and whether in fact there shall be a private monopoly, or whether, as was proposed in the Report, in five years the State should step in and do the job. We think that if there is to be a great monopoly, it is better to have a public than a private monopoly. As regards iron and steel, a large amount of capital must be spent on iron and steel, and it is important that it shall be economically raised. We believe that this industry has only been raised from its shocking state of inefficiency 15 years ago by repeated public assistance and favours in the forms of tariffs, and that when an industry gets into that state, and it is a basic industry like iron and steel, there is a great deal to be said for the State coming in and tidying it up.
The Government nationalisation of industry is not an obstacle, or a source of confusion. There is no confusion in industry consequent upon this nationalisation policy. It is being carried through in an orderly and constructive manner, and with' remarkable smoothness, and that will be the spirit of the nationalisation policy. Our belief is that we can only get through this period of transition, if we have suitable economic controls, relaxing them as and when we can, if we stimulate production in cooperation with private enterprise and labour, if we assist in the better organisation of

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private enterprise industry, as is being done by my right hon. and learned Friend the President of the Board of Trade, and if we couple with that the socialisation of industries which are basic, and which are essential for the well being of all other industries. Therefore, I submit to the House that the policy of the Government over the whole field, is a coordinated policy, a tidy policy and a constructive policy, which is in the interests of the nation, and that the Amendment ought to be rejected.
5.35 p.m.
Mr. Quintin Hogg: I rise to support the Amendment so well proposed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan), whose exposition of the subject will I hope, go down as the classical Conservative approach to the problems with which it is concerned. It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman who has just resumed his seat was a little over-anxious to disclaim the charge that the Labour Party had been guilty of offering the people Utopia. I thought that his selective readings from "Let Us Face The Future" were perhaps a little too carefully chosen. I do not happen to have my copy of "Let Us Face The Future" with me, although I do not usually go far without it. It so happens that I have in my hand a document, written by some relative of the Minister of Food as recently as 1944. I am glad to say that what he wrote there confirms to a great degree what the right hon. Gentleman has just said. I find that on page 77 of the booklet—[HON. MEMBERS: "What is the name?"]—It has the curious title of "Why you should be a Socialist," and the author is described—it is no doubt a pseudonym—as"John Strachey, "who I suppose is a distant relative of the present Minister of Food. On page 77, I read these words:
"Socialism is not Utopia. Socialism can only abolish poverty, war and insecurity from the face of the earth."
Hon. Members are entitled to claim that they did not offer Utopia, but they might have a little sympathy with most of us who have some grounds for the assertion that they were promising a great deal more than any Government could reasonably expect to perform. The right hon. Gentleman next twitted my right hon.
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Friend for what he claimed was an inconsistency in his public attitude. 1 do not myself attach the same great importance to literal consistency as some Members of this House, but I do ask, "Who is the right hon. Gentleman to claim consistency in politics?" I am compelled to say what I would not otherwise have said if it were not for the fact that the right hon. Gentleman threw out this taunt to my right hon. Friend. Who is he to talk about consistency, when during this week 53 members of his own party have complained because he has overcome his well-known long-felt and publicly proclaimed antipathy to compulsory military service, and has presided as a member of the inner council of a Government, which for the first time in peace has produced that principle? Who is the right hon. Gentleman to complain about consistency, when he has as his colleague the Minister of Supply, who launched his political career at East Fulham as the declared enemy of increased armaments when Hitler was in being, and now that Hitler is destroyed presides over a great supply Department of warlike production? Who is he to talk about consistency when we remember the quotation to which my right hon. Friend himself referred earlier in the Debate, from the Minister of Health, who, as recently as 1945, proclaimed that exports were "only a twist of the Tory mind"? The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health said:
"By some twist of the Tory mind it is good' trade to persuade someone in a remote part of the world to buy our goods, but ruinous to allow the same goods to be consumed by our own people."
What is this talk of consistency from Members opposite? No one could be more sorry than myself to complain of the inconsistency of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House, because "There is more joy in Heaven over one sinner who repenteth than over all the legions of the blessed." I can only proclaim my sorrow that their Election prospectus, which dealt with foreign policy, friendship with Russia, a revolutionary change in our attitude to Greece, intervention in Spain, and restoration to the Jews of Palestine, did not survive the cold scrutiny of official responsibility. I rejoice that the party opposite, and the Leader of the House in particular, did not permit themselves to cling to their dangerous delusions

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for one instant longer than was necessary to raise them to the pinnacle of power. If there be some—and they are already beginning to appear on the benches opposite—who are saying, in public, what they have long been proclaiming in the secret conclaves of their party, that this long series of abandonments of principle by the right hon. Gentleman, however powerful the public arguments and support which they may adduce—and powerful they are—that renders a Labour Government nothing more than organised hypocrisy. I have some sympathy for the error, and do not dissent from their conclusion.
This Amendment appears to me to illustrate the point as well as any other subject. The right hon. Gentleman did not complain that we concentrated on problems of production, because the economic difficulties of the country are among our most pressing problems. But where will that argument lead the party opposite? They have found that in the realms of foreign policy the cold facts of the situation demanded the same policy which had been put forward by a Conservative Government, and only too shortly will they find, indeed they are already beginning to discover, that problems of the home front, the home situation, are only patient of a Conservative interpretation. If we criticise the Government, as we do in this Amendment, it is not simply that we detest their principles, and that we have any doubt as to their administrative incompetence. It is because we believe that the party of which we on this side are Members have something better to offer, something which Members opposite are themselves striving for, but which, because of the idiosyncrasies and inhibitions by which they are befuddled, they are prevented from attaining. If there be any measure of agreement in the House at all I should have thought that it would have been summed up in three principles, all of which can be found in the Amendment, none of which, so far as I know, can be denied to be necessary, and for all of which support can be found in some of the speeches of the Government. I refer to the three principles of national unity, freedom, and production of abundance as a means of combating shortage. The right hon. Gentleman will not deny that these are among the established aims of His Majesty's Government, but they
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are Conservative principles, and can be achieved only by a Conservative Administration.
Let me deal with these points in order. First, the principle of national unity. I do not claim, and, I hope, no one would claim, that any one party has a monopoly of public spirit in this country. That would be a false and unworthy doctrine, and I believe that no country could long survive in which such a monopoly was ever enjoyed by a single faction. But I claim with complete confidence that the principle of national unity is, and always has been, a distinctively Conservative political doctrine, and that the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends, having broken that national unity, prior to the Election, now call pitifully, but in vain, for the spirit of Dunkirk which they themselves destroyed [An HON. MEMBER: "What is national unity?"] An hon. Gentleman asks me what is national unity, and I can tell him. I am not anxious to misrepresent or traduce the party opposite because if I did so I should fail in the purpose which I have. But I think the truth is this: All honourable parties—and Members opposite have every right to be as proud of theirs as I am of mine—have certain principles and outlook on which they seek to base their inspiration, and draw the programme which constitutes their policy I do not think I am unfair to the Labour Party when I say that the things on which they have based their inspiration and principles, on which they have stood as the basis of their policy, have been, on the whole, the differences and injustices which exist in society, and which have always existed. But the principle on which the Conservative Party has always been based, on which it has always stood to found its national policy, is the ultimate identity of interest of all classes among our fellow countrymen, their profound similarity of outlook, the common dangers and difficulties which they have shared, and with which they are still confronted, and the necessity of unity as a means of meeting them together. The nation, not the so-called class struggle, is therefore at the base of Conservative political thinking. Harmony, not conflict, is its ruling objective. The health, security and prosperity of all classes is its first guiding political principle. I hope that that answers the question I have been asked.
Mr. John Lewis: Why did not the hon. Gentleman's party apply that in the years between the wars?
Mr. Hogg: The country is getting a little "tired of the argument that two wrongs make a right. Hon. Gentlemen have subsisted for nearly 18 months by telling the country that it does not matter how big a muddle they are making of things now because, for 20 years, the Tories made a bigger muddle. The country is entitled to a better argument than" You're another"; it is entitled to demand that the Government should found their policy on principles and measures which will stand scrutiny on their own merits and should not seek to hide behind the real or supposed shortcomings of its opponents.
The General Election of 1945 was fought on the principle of whether national unity should be preserved. Our manifesto, which was based on the great series of White Papers produced by the Coalition Government formed a practical programme which would have filled Parliamentary time for the space of a full Parliament. Members opposite rejected that manifesto and programme. They held with persuasive reasoning, which could be powerfully put forward on the platform, that such a programme could not be carried into effect until fundamental disagreements, on which men of honour and principle are undoubtedly bound to differ at the present time, had been thrashed out, and the will of one imposed on the will of the other. They won the election and they are bound to carry that principle of national disunity and a party programme to its logical conclusion. That they are doing. But to win an election is not quite the same thing as being proved right. Everything which has happened in the history of our country since 1945 has been a mere commentary upon the proposition that the policy of the highest common factor of agreement was right, and the policy of the lowest common multiple of dissension was wrong.
I turn to the second of the principles—that of freedom. There are many Members on my side of the House who find it difficult to believe that a real love of freedom exists in the party opposite. But I prefer to take hon. Gentlemen opposite at their word and to believe that, although their policy is best calculated to suppress the liberties of this country, they sincerely
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desire, none the less, to retain them. Therefore, I suggest that we should now consider which of the two parties is most likely to give us what we both deem to be good. Hon. Gentlemen have suggested that perhaps the definition of freedom was to blame. What is freedom? Philosophers and politicians may have their different definitions and, for all I know, they may be right, but to me the meaning of political freedom is nothing short of this—diffusion of political power. All power tends to corrupt, absolute power to corrupt absolutely, and it follows that if power is not to be abused it must be spread as widely as possible throughout the community. We, in Britain, have always believed in the strength of the Central Government and largely under the influence of Conservatives in the past have deemed that the rule of law shall prevail over self-interest. But it would be a very evil day for Britain and for democracy if all power in this country came to be concentrated in the hands of the political executive. Where you have diffusion of power, there you have freedom; where you have concentration of power in the hands of a single group, freedom is at an end. You need no Gestapo because you have achieved dictatorship.
There are some people who say—I believe that there was an interruption to that effect from below the gangway—that it is not enough to have political freedom; that you must have economic freedom. Economic democracy as well. I agree with that proposition, but what do we mean by economic democracy? I think that is not a difficult definition. If political freedom means the sharing and diffusion of political power, so economic freedom and economic democracy mean the sharing of economic power—that is of property—as widely as possible throughout the community. We desire to see political power and economic power properly shared throughout the community. That is the ideal of a property owning democracy put forward by my right hon. Friend in his speech at Black pool. We wish to see power shared by individuals, and we want to see it shared by groups. We are glad to see it shared by trade unions, so long as they are not subservient to the interests of a single political party or ambitious to control the whole machinery of the State. We wish to see it shared by traders, cooperatives,

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and trading corporations. We wish to see it shared by local authorities. But above all we wish to see the family a centre of power enjoying its own franchises and prerogatives and occupying its own position as the foundation of civilised society. Here again, the party of which I am a member is at, variance with the Government. What is the policy of His Majesty's Government? Is it not simply this, that greater and greater concentration of power in fewer and still fewer hands, ultimately in the hands of that little band of men, whoever they may be, who manipulate the policy of the Labour Party, and through it the policy of the State? No one pretends that the present distribution of power in this country is perfect. It has never been perfect, perhaps it never will be, but it is our duty to try continually to improve it. The deliberate policy of concentrating more and more power into the hands of the executive of the State is a remedy far worse than the disease. I believe that I am right in saying that never since Cromwell or Henry the Eighth held in the hollow of their hands the whole power of Church and State has there been such a formidable concentration of power as there is in the Labour Government at the present moment. They enjoy a dominant, self satisfied and, at times, arrogant majority in this House, pursuing a policy which they have arrived at outside the House of Commons at their party conferences. The Labour Party now control the largest number of local councils and local authorities all working to do the will of the bureaucracy in Transport House. On the Trades Union Congress and the Cooperative Societies, a small well disciplined minority, dominate a large part of the industrial field. Their proclaimed political aim is to seek to capture one by one through legislative means the great trades and industries of this country. If there be one malady which has sent democracy to its ruin in one country after another, it is the power of an organised minority to dominate the unorganised majority. Let them remember that they still are a minority.
I turn now to the third of the three principles—production for abundance as the means of ending shortage. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of scarcity economics. Sir, Socialism is scarcity economics. Conservatism sees in
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Socialism a squalid struggle for ever-diminishing shares of a rapidly disappearing cake. They believe that no good can come of such a struggle, and foresee for it nothing but disaster. at home, and weakness and dishonour abroad. We seek to make a determined cooperative effort to secure adequate shares for all in a constantly expanding economy. We condemn Socialism in peacetime for the same reason that we acquiesced in Socialist Measures in wartime. I think that my right hon. Friend proclaimed that the object in wartime is equal sharing of burdens, hardships and privations, but our first object in peace should be the abolition of hardship and privations by the provision of an opportunity of fair trading for all and of a fair standard of living for all. We believe that the only method of achieving this is the philosophy of expansion based on encouragement and incentive, and not the philosophy of restriction based on prohibition, punishment and control.
Some months ago the "Daily Herald" produced a cartoon and on it was the picture of the present Prime Minister nailing his colours to the mast of a raft. On that flag was inscribed the device "A fair share for all." A fair share for all is a fine slogan for shipwrecked mariners on a desert island, faced with ever-diminishing stores which it is beyond their capacity to replenish. But I can think of a better slogan for a proud industrial nation which, twice in a lifetime, has saved, by its effort and by its example, itself and the whole world from tyranny and disaster. Instead of "A fair share for all in a constantly diminishing economy," it is "An adequate share for all, enough for all, abundance for all, in a constantly expanding economy."
I had hoped to conclude what I had to say with a fairly careful summary of what I conceive would have been the policy of a Conservative Government during the last 18 months. [HON. MEMBERS: "Go on."] Hon. Members ask me to go on; it is most kind of them, and perhaps I shall. It is, obviously, true that the policy of any Government faced with the situation with which this Government has been faced for the last 18 months would have contained certain broad similarities of principle. For instance, both great parties in the State were committed to a comprehensive Measure of national insurance, based on the Coalition Government's

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White Paper, and drawing its inspiration ultimately from the Beveridge Report. But I do not think a Conservative Government would have prevented the friendly societies and other voluntary bodies from playing their part in the administration of the new scheme. It would have been perfectly possible, and a great convenience, to permit the citizen, if he so desired, to appoint someone else, be it trade union, friendly society, bank, solicitor or accountant to manage his case."
Secondly, both great parties were committed to a great Measure to replace the present panel system by a National Health Service designed to afford to all, irrespective of means, the best medical attention which could be provided. But I do not think that a Conservative Minister would have followed the example of the present Minister of Health in deliberately antagonising all the three main organisms through which such a scheme could be carried into effect, antagonising at the same time the medical profession, the great voluntary hospitals, and the local authorities. I think that. a Conservative scheme would have pursued much the same policy as was embodied in the Education Act of my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler), using the existing machinery, leaving with local authorities a free responsibility and a great measure of freedom of policy, and welding the whole into a general plan in which general standards were enforced, but in which diversity and variety were retained.
Both great parties, of course, must have produced a policy for housing. No responsible statesman on either side of the House could fail to make housing one of the main planks in his programme. But we had before the war, and we have available now, two great organisations for the production of houses. It is not our case that one is much better than the other. They are both very good. Our case is that one is much bigger than the other. I do not think a Conservative Government would have followed the policy of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health of trying to force the entire housing programme through the bottleneck of one of those organisations rather than the other. [HON. MEMBERS: "What is the other?"] It is private enterprise. There is private enterprise, and there are the local authorities. I thought I had made myself plain, but I am obliged to hon.
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Gentlemen for giving me the opportunity to do so. There would have been a policy for trade and industry. Both parties must have had a policy for increased production.
Mr. Frank McLeavy: Will the hon. Gentleman explain to the House how it is that private enterprise is not able to work in the building of houses under the Government's scheme? Is it not a fact that private enterprise is able to do so, provided it is prepared to build houses to let and not for sale?
Mr. Hoǵǵ: I think that is a question which the hon. Member might put to his right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, but my answer is that the right hon. Gentleman will not let them. A Conservative Government would have had a policy for coal, inland transport, gas and electricity, and iron and steel, but the Conservative schemes would have been based primarily on technical rather than on political considerations. In the coal industry, for instance, a Conservative Government would have seen to it that, the recqmmendations of the Reid Report were carried out, which has not been done. For electricity there would have been a target for expansion, and for gas there would have been interconnection and standardisation. But in each case the emphasis would have been laid on production rather than on control, on policy rather than on structure and ownership, and on whether a particular industrial organisation worked, in the sense Of providing the public with adequate service rather than whether it embodied a particular set of political ideas.
Both Governments would have had to cope with shortages, and in the first place, of course, such shortages would have had to be dealt with by a Conservative Government, no less than by a Socialist Government, by more or less severe rationing and control, but in the case of a Conservative Government the main aim of policy would have been to end the shortages by increasing production, by encouraging production through offering adequate incentives, and not by decreasing consumption and by imposing punishments and restrictions.
I think I have said enough to show that the basis of criticism which we offer tonight is not simply a negative or destructive hatred of Socialist principle, although we do not pretend either to like

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Socialist principle or to wish to retain it. Our duty is clear. It is to proclaim a return to a policy based on national unity, the highest common factor of agreement, and not the lowest common multiple of dissension, a policy based upon concentration on the many points on which men of good will in all parts of the country are agreed, and not upon concentration on the few points on which they must necessarily differ. It is to proclaim a return to common sense, a return to moderation as a political principle, and the abandonment of a policy based simply on ideological considerations. It is because of this that we believe that the ultimate message of Conservatism at the present time is one of hope.
For seven long years now our great people have undergone suffering, privation and danger. [interruption.] This is the Dunkirk spirit for which Government supporters ask. For seven years, now, our people have been undergoing these miseries, sometimes alone, sometimes in good company but always with good courage. Yet all the time, I believe, they have nurtured and nourished in their hearts the hope of something better coming after. Our condemnation of Socialism consists in this, that it sentences our valorous people to an indefinite continuance of their suffering. By our own policy, I believe we can point the way to something better to which we can win through together. And so it will be that the Conservative Party will face the future with high courage and a clear conscience, knowing that these are assets which cannot be wrested from the weakest of our number even by the most formidable of antagonists.
6.10 p.m.
Major Cecil Poole: I feel sure that the House will not expect me to rise to the amazing heights of the oratory to which we have listened for the last 40 minutes. I venture to suggest that' seldom has this House listened to such riotous, reckless ranting as that to which we have been treated. It now seems that we are also to be treated to the croaking of the noble Lord the 'Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton). However irrelevant and imaginary and in many cases absurd were the suggestions of the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg), the House listened to what he had to say with very great pleasure.
Earl Winterton: How many listened in silence?
Major Poole: The noble Lord asks me how many listened in silence. The answer is that he did not, because he was not in the Chamber. As I was saying, we listened to that speech with very great pleasure, but I doubt whether our pleasure, was anything compared with the personal joy of the hon. Member for Oxford in his own magnificent piece of oratory. Probably he got a great deal more pleasure out of it than the House did. I do not as I say intend to follow him, but he did ask one question, to which he ought to know the answer. He posed this question: What is this consistency of which the Leader of the House has 'been speaking? I think that after the dismal series of by-election losses culminating in the episode of yesterday, the Tory Party ought to know what consistency really is. They have consistently managed to lose every by-election since the General Election and they are, of course, going to lose the by-election which is being held today. In fact, I wondered if the hon. Member for Oxford had not made a mistake and got the notes which be had prepared for his Paddington by-election speech, mixed up with the notes for his speech here today.
He spoke about three principles underlying the Amendment, and after dealing with these, I will leave his speech. One was with freedom, and he tried to show that the Tory Party had always been in the forefront in the application of freedom. Many of us remember that the only freedom the Tory Party conferred upon countless thousands in this country in the thirties was the freedom to starve. That was their contribution to the unity and good will of the people of this country. I will say this. I agree with him when he says that it is not good enough and it never will be good enough for this party to blame any of its failures on the fact that the Tory Party failed after the last war. [An HON. MEMBER: Get on with it."] 1 will get on with it in good time, and I will not take as much time as Members on the opposite side have taken. The Tory Party's claim falls into two categories. They say that in the Gracious Speech there are no practical proposals to unite His Majesty's subjects in a national effort for increased production; and, secondly, they say that the Govern-

913
ment propose on the contrary further measures of nationalisation which must confuse and retard the recovery of the nation. I should like to deal briefly with those two points, because they are very pleasant points for us on this side of the House to discuss. Here, again, I think we have complete evidence of the muddled thinking of the party which occupies the Opposition benches. It is this muddled thinking that has placed the Tory Party on the Opposition benches rather than on the Government benches. It is because of the inability of hon. Members opposite to understand the mentality of the people that they are where they are. The two proposals I have indicated are completely contradictory. It is because in the nationalisation proposals of the Government today, the people for the first time realise that they have a real share in industry, that they are united and going forward in a magnificent production effort If hon. Members opposite have any doubt about the unity of the people, may I point out to them that these people are continuously united enough to reject all the Tory quack remedies put before them during the last 18 months? How do they propose to unite the people of this country? What are their practical proposals? If we are to judge from their election propaganda, first they want the removal of most controls, and, secondly, the introduction of unrestricted private enterprise. We have seen the great virtues of this policy in the last few weeks in the United States of America, and if such a policy were brought to fruition here, the people would have the dubious pleasure of paying 7s. 6d. per pound for their butter and 6s. 6d. per pound for their beef. Do the Tory Party really think that that would unite the people of this country in a great effort for production?
I come to the second part of this Amendment, which refers to the fact that the Government have now brought further measures of nationalisation before the country. I want to say this. Every nationalisation proposal that the Government has brought forward up to date is is fully justified by the past record of the industry concerned.
Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: What about civil aviation? It has no past record.
Major Poole: I am amazed at the hon. and gallant Member's reference to civil
914
aviation. Does he not know of Imperial Airways and that Government subsidies of £1½ million to £3 million a year were given to that industry—
Sir T. Moore: Now the Government are giving £8 million.
Major Poole: —in order that it might compete in the markets of the world, and were used instead to pay dividends, which it did not earn, and reduce the pay packets of the workers?
Sir T. Moore rose—
Major Poole: No. I do not want to trespass on the time of the House, but that is an obviously historical fact with which the hon. and gallant Member ought to have been acquainted, for I think he, has been in this House longer than I have. I return to this question of nationalisation from which I was side-tracked. Nationalisation of industry is only justifiable if it can be proved that, under nationalisation an industry can do a job better than it would do it if it were left under private ownership. I would be the last to support the nationalisation of any industry merely for the sake of nationalisation, but of all the proposals for nationalisation mat have been or ever will be brought before this House, I venture to suggest that transport and electricity are the best possible cases that can be provided.
The Lord President of the Council has mentioned electricity and I want to deal with it for a moment. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan), who moved this Amendment, said that no better results could be obtained under nationalisation, than would be obtained by leaving these things under their present ownership. Does he not know about the countryside and the rural areas of this country neglected for years and years and denied even the smallest of the amenities in this respect enjoyed by the town dweller? Does he know of the country housewife who has none of these facilities to lighten the daily toil of the home or of the farmer who has to go round his outbuildings with a hurricane lamp, and pump, by hand, the necessary water for domestic purposes and the feeding of his stock? That indicates some of the conditions which exist in the countryside today, simply because electricity has been left in the hands of private enterprise, which developed only those

915
areas which it was profitable to develop, and gave supplies only to those places where large profits could be made. Yet the right hon. Gentleman suggests that this thing would be better left in private hands. This, again, is evidence of that completely muddled thinking by the Tory Party which has placed them where they are, and where, I venture to suggest, they are likely to remain as long as I live and I do not hope to die for another 50 years. In the few places in the countryside, as the Lord President said, where electricity has penetrated a premium has been put on its use by very prohibitive charges, and I ask the House: Why should the rural dweller be penalised? Why put a premium on living in the country? We cannot expect to stop the drift from the land by permitting misery and drudgery among the people who live in the country. The only way in which we shall get electricity into the unprofitable areas, and into the single farm house, with its couple of cottages is under a nationalised system in which we shall be able to share the good areas with the bad.
If all this is true of electricity how much more is it true of transport generally, and of the railway industry in particular? While I have no vested interest to disclose to the House in this connection I have had 22 years in railway service, and 6½ years' experience of military movements during the war. It is only because of that experience that I venture to speak on this question of transport today. The latter experience in road, railway, sea, and river transport, both at home and abroad,' has shown me assuredly that the proposals for the nationalisation of transport are fundamentally sound, and that without them industry will be in a very difficult position. That experience did more—it showed me how appallingly defective is the present transport system of this country. The railway companies stand self condemned in almost every department. Go to any of the terminal stations in London; stand there in the gloom and see the lack of imagination in railway architecture. This has nothing to do with Socialism, but-represents the fruits of private enterprise, and the lack of foresight in planning and development. I wander if hon. Members would take a railway map of this great metropolis if they can find one—and look at the railway connections. It would
916
appal them, and I hope to deal with that later.
Evidence of the complete lack of imagination in the management of the railways is to be found in the fact that wagons individually owned by the various companies were back-hauled empty. That persisted for many years until, after a good deal of pressure, the common user system of railway wagons was introduced. Even under that pooling arrangement, on a given selected day each week a fixed quota of wagons belonging, for example, to the Great Western Railway, had to be put over at selected points on to that railway's system—never mind if they had to be brought from Aberdeen for the purpose. Such has been the railway companies intelligent approach to their own problems of management and development, and we still have the private ownership of railway wagons, which leads to their being hauled empty, up and down the line. Again, there was the senseless prewar competition between the rival railway groups, and the closing of the ranks to fight the new menace of the road operators. I am sorry that time does not permit me to sketch the full history of that. Today there is much to be done in the purely physical sense to put right our railway transport system in this country, and when I say "physical sense" I do not refer to the war damage, or even to the lack of maintenance caused by war conditions. So much requires to be done to make the railways efficient that it would not be possible while they remain under private ownership.
Let me return to the consideration of London. I am not a Londoner but I know something of the transport system in the capital. What did we find when we came to test the transport system of London? We found that the railway layout of London was completely incapable of handling the traffic which had to pass through. At every approach to London there are bottlenecks in which wagons are piled up. A classic example, I suppose, is Old Oak Common on the Great Western Railway, where traffic becomes hopelessly congested, until there can be no more physical movement. London is full of places like that. We have the docks of London served almost solely by the North London line. Can the House visualise the whole of the docks of this great river served by that one line? Some of us knew what it meant when we were trying to mount the invasion and—
Mr. Brendan Bracken: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is busily abusing our railways, and I have no doubt that he played a very great part in mounting the invasion. But General Eisenhower, who played an even greater part in that invasion, afterwards paid a most glowing tribute to the British railways for their services in the war.
Major Poole: I am making no claim to have played any but the most minor part. I did what I was told, like everyone else who served in the Forces. I do not care what General Eisenhower says about our railways. He does not know as much about them as the most humble railway man serving in them. It is an absurd analogy, as I hope the right hon. Gentleman will realise when he thinks the matter over. 1 was saying that the whole of the docks of London are served by one line, and across the river we have the Surrey Commercial Docks, which are not rail served at all. Can hon. Members imagine, in these enlightened days, docks which are not rail served? Yet that situation persists today.
There is, of course, one most serious objection here as far as the handling of traffic in this area is concerned. The only link between North and South of the river, unless one goes out as far as Reading in the West, is that narrow stretch, that ribbon, the West London line. Will hon. Members appreciate what that means strategically in time of war, what it means today, and what it may mean on some future occasion? Our invasion areas were Surrey, Sussex and Kent; yet it would have been possible with a few well-directed bombs once a week to deprive the defence forces of those areas of any rail service supplies in continuity. In fact the very measure of attention shown to Kensington, Hammersmith, and places like that was indicative of this. So intelligently were the railways planned that London has only one link for traffic from the North to be brought into the South.
Sir Ralph Glyn (Abingdon): The hon. and gallant Member has forgotten that the Metropolitan Railway broadened the line from Fenchurch Street which is connected with the North.
Major Poole: I have not forgotten anything. I had to work traffic over all those lines and the hon. Gentleman will find that, in both these cases, extreme con-
918
gestion almost precluded military traffic from being worked over them. There is also the question of Woolwich Arsenal. Woolwich Arsenal assumed enormous importance in the war effort, yet every ounce of our heavy gun equipment has to be dribbled right along the Thames and, again, over this North London line into the docks on this side of the river, unless we are able to use the ferry. This system caused serious congestion and the blocking of vital exchange points, and the same situation is arising today. Hon. Members are continually asking why trains are late, and the answer is here. The hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Osborne) is repeatedly asking why railway wagons take 65 and 70 days to go from place to place. The answer is here in our antiquated railway system.' All round our coasts, ships which are urgently needed to export our goods are lying, waiting for material supplies which cannot be got to them because of bottle necks in our transportation system. Traders without goods to sell in their shops are waiting for them, and they are lying in railway yards up and down the country. Exports on the way to our ports are seriously delayed. If hon. Members are concerned with the revival of a prosperous industry in this country, here is the first prerequisite—a sound transport system. Without that, anything we try to do is completely bankrupt.
I have said all this in order to ask what we can do to overcome these extreme difficulties which arose in time of war. I do not argue that everything we had in time of war is of necessity desirable in time of peace, but I feel that we are here on perfectly safe and sure ground. People who knew at first-hand the demand which was arising, who knew the urgency of that demand, knew also the resources at their disposal, and the state of those resources. They had complete and plenary powers to decide how each commodity should move from point A to point B. I ask the House to note that. I ask hon. Members on the other side how it was possible to arrive at that position while the ownership of road undertakings was in the thousand-and-one hands that it is today, while railways had divided ownership and control, and while the docks, the craft that ply on the Thames and all the other transport undertakings, had fingers in the pie? How would they have been able to arrive at a knowledge of the urgent demands, of the

919
resources and of the state of those resources? During the war certain people had that authority, and could divert, select and use alternative means and methods, whether road, rail, inland water, or even air if it was necessary. 1 say advisedly, and I think it would be borne out by all those in high places who had to deal with the mounting of the invasion, that without that overriding authority the invasion of Normandy would never have been accomplished. I see the right hon Member who used to sit for Paddington but now represents Bournemouth—a much more respectable and much safer place, I may say—smiling at what I have said. He really shows appalling ignorance of the problem. Does he not know that for 10 weeks the whole of the West of England area occupied by the American Forces, the area from which their invasion was mounted, was completely closed to all railway traffic?
Mr. Bracken: Since the hon. and gallant Member asks me a question, perhaps he will allow me to answer it. Of course I know, but what I was smiling at was that I thought we had come to the days of peace, and that the hon. and gallant Gentleman did not believe in dictatorship. That is what he is apparently recommending now, for the unfortunate people of this country.
Major Poole: Again the right hon. Gentleman shows ignorance. What he does not know or realise now is that there is arising now, in the transport field, an even greater tonnage than arose in time of war If it was necessary to have control to carry that tonnage in time of war, how much more necessary it is to have some centralised control now.
Mr. Bracken: Dictatorship.
Major Poole: Well, dictatorship if you like. At any rate, it will be dictatorship in the interests of the people of this country rather than in the interests of the people whom hon. Members opposite seem to desire to help. Few Members are aware of the extent to which Father Thames was used in the mounting of that invasion. Hundreds of thousands of tons of supplies were worked down this river. They were taken off or loaded at most unusual points up the river I would like to pay a very humble tribute here, one which has never
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been paid in this House, to the bargees and lightermen for the work which they did, and to the dock labourers. One knows what was handled by those men after the fall of Pans, in an attempt to get food to the starving people there.
I pose this question to the House: Could all this have happened under a private competitive system? Do not vested interests always compete for every little bit of traffic that is available? It was always so in peacetime. Efficient transport is the lifeblood of the nation. It is certainly the lifeblood of industry and is one of the greatest assets that any nation can have. Such an efficiency cannot arise from the chaotic conditions of the present day, without a large expenditure of public money, and transport cannot be efficient without overriding direction and control, which the right hon. Gentleman calls dictatorship. The case to me seems unanswerable, but it may be that my assessment of the position is coloured by my upbringing, by my working life, and even by my political views. It may be that for that reason I have taken an extravagant view of the problem. Because of those possibilities I have thought that I ought to fortify myself with other opinions. I have tried to seek wisdom from those who might be expected to think differently. The Lord President of the Council made a reference to what was said away back in 1918. I have forgotten to whom the speech was attributed, whether it was to the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) or not. The quotation which he gave was not quite as good as it might have been. It did not make out the case half as well as a quotation I would like to make. I would quote now from "The Times" of 10th December, 1918, one of the memorable speeches made by the right hon. Member for Woodford in fighting the Election.
Mr. Bracken: It was quite unusual.
Major Poole: It may have been quite unusual, but he gave some good advice. It is a very great pity that hon Members opposite have turned their backs on the advice which their present leader was tendering to them 28 years ago. I knew that the Tory Party was a long way back in its thinking but I did not think it was as far back as 1918. Apparently

921
it is. This is what the present Leader of the Opposition said:
"We have to do something on a bigger scale than ever."
Mark you, this was said immediately following the last war. He went on:
"The three great factors are: land, communications and power, and the three children: food, housing and manufacture."
I see now where the Tory Party got its Election slogans from. This language shows a very great similarity. The quotation goes on:
"So long as the railways are in private hands they may be used for immediate profit. In the hands of the State, however, it might be wise or expedient to run them at a loss, if they developed industry, placed the trader in close contact with his market, and stimulated development. We cannot organise the great questions of land settlement, new industries and the extension of production, unless the State has control of the means of transportation."
If I am erring tonight, I am erring in very good company—or in very bad company, but company more enlightened than that in which we are asked to err by hon. Gentlemen opposite. The right hon. Gentleman went further. It almost seems as if, with some foresight, he was able to see what hon. Gentlemen who now sit behind him are going to do tonight. He said:
"Next to railways comes power."
So he, in 1918, 28 years ago, realised how necessary these things are. Some Members of the Opposition say, on this question of road transport—and the whole country is blazoned with placards about it—"Why not have a public inquiry into transport, before you nationalise?" The voice of the right hon. Member for Woodford echoes from the past to hon. Members opposite. He posed that very question. He was asked whether a national inquiry would be instituted before the railways were nationalised. I am again quoting from "The Times." He replied:
"I cannot say, but I think it highly improbable that action on this vital matter can be delayed until a Royal Commission has wandered about. A mass of information is already available."
The situation in 1918 in regard to means of transport was such for the right hon. Member for Woodford, that he could not even wait for a public inquiry into the transport system. We have moved 28 years since then. The Tory Party now tells us first that we should not do this thing, but that if we must do it, we really
922
ought to have a committee of inquiry. I wonder where we are travelling. It was interesting to read the City Notes in "The Times" following the announcement of the right hon. Gentleman. In the issue of 9th December, 1918, that paper said:
"On the whole, we find railway stockholders view the prospect of Government purchase of their property with relief."
There was a Tory Government, and they would have been pleased to be relieved of their stock. I do not know what is the answer of hon. Gentlemen opposite. I feel I have said quite enough. If more is needed, I advise hon. and right hon. Gentlemen to have a look at the Report of the Select Committee on Transport in 1918. That Select Committee took evidence from everyone and decided that State ownership of transport was eminently desirable. The Tory Party is still arguing about it and saying that it is not necessary. Those who support the claims of the road operators to be excluded from nationalisation should note the evidence given by the chairman of the Road Transport Board to that Select Committee. He said:
"It seems obvious that road transport must be regarded as an integral and effective portion of the whole transport organisation of this country and not as an isolated enterprise."
The Government are doing that. They are doing what is right and in the best interests of the country. I am fortified by my own experience in peace and war and by the clearer thinking of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford in his more enlightened days, before he had become so deeply sullied by his association with the party opposite. If the Amendment is taken to a Division, I shall most certainly go into the Lobby against it.
6.41 p.m.
Brigadier Mackeson: The hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield (Major Poole) will forgive me if I do not follow him into the somewhat secondhand strategical lecture he has given to hon. Members on this side of the House, many of whom have some slight knowledge also of troop movements and realise that any railway system is vulnerable to air bombardment. The movement of Allied and our own troops in this country during the war cannot be regarded as anything less than a first-class tribute to those like the hon. and gallant Member who worked

923
as staff officers and also to those who built those lines of communications in the past.
I want to bring the Debate back to the question of production and to the deployment of the available manpower at our disposal. Very recently the House voted on the question of conscription, but the House has not yet given the Government authority to impose conscription, and I believe that hon. Members on this side of the House will require very great evidence before they are convinced of the absolute necessity to enforce conscription before they give the Government those powers. From the facts at our disposal at the moment we believe it necessary and essential, but we have not yet been given in any way an Imperial Manpower budget.
It is not fair, right or democratic that this country should deny to the people of the Colonies the right to defend themselves which they have proved themselves most able to do all over the world during the war. Be that as it may, I am greatly alarmed now that conscription is coming that Service Ministers should be continually absent from this country, with the possible exception of the present Secretary of State for War, who has recently been appointed. A Minister at the head of a Service Department is essential if the Service Estimates and establishments are to be gone through and cut wherever possible. If that is not done, and Service Ministers spend their time abroad, the Government must not be surprised if we are very critical when we come to consider the Service Estimates. It is not, however, in connection with the Services that I wish to put forward a very pressing argument in support of this Amendment.
I am convinced that my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) when he mentioned the question of the non-industrial Civil Service was putting his foot right on the pedal which is braking this country at the moment. We simply cannot afford to keep 670,000 people in the non-industrial Civil Service whereas before the war we had only 375,000. Not only are these people not productively employed, but they are cluttering up the wheels of industry and agriculture. Forms, papers, interference and bureaucracy are one of
924
the courses which have descended on this country with socialism. I ask the right hon. Gentleman who will reply to the Debate how he intends to deploy our manpower. At the moment it is almost impossible to form any estimate of how many civil servants there are to be. The figure has risen to something like 1,750,000 in Government and local government employment. The country cannot afford to carry that as well as the vast numbers of men who will be required in the Armed Forces. Our standard of living will fall and our export trade will crash unless this manpower budget is put right. Another 9,000 people have recently been employed by the Ministry of Food in order not to give us food. There are another 2,000 in the Ministry of Labour and National Service. That may be necessary in view of the importance of resettling ex-Service men. There are another 1,400 in the Ministry of Work; but very little more material is coming out.
Can we have a clear statement by the Government of how our labour forces are to be deployed and how we are to get the maximum number of people productively employed and how we are to keep our Civil Service down? Somehow or other the Minister of Labour must get some grip on this appalling increase in the Civil Service and local government employ, which I regard as one of the more serious menaces facing this country.
Mr. Speaker: If the House will allow me, before I call on the next speaker I would point out that up to now—in three hours—we have managed five speakers, and in three hours more, at that rate, we shall only have had five more speakers. There are many who wish to be called, but it is quite impossible for me to call them. All I can say is that hon. Members should not blame the Chair.
6.46 p.m.
Mr. S. N. Evans: I listened with close attention to the opening remarks of the right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan), who opened for the Opposition, and it seems to me that the Lord President dealt with those remarks most ably. I shall proceed to develop an argument on a subject on which the Lord President himself touched—the steel industry. The Recess announcement by the Ministry of Supply regarding the functions of the interim

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steel board marked a radical departure from previously announced Government policy. The House will recall that that policy had been to develop the plans for nationalisation side by side with the plans for reconstruction. Announcing the policy, the Minister said that
"we are confident that the industry will not be so foolish or so unpatriotic as to refuse their advice on technical points."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th May, 1946; Vol. 423, c. 851.Q
From that moment I was an interested spectator of the struggle of wills between the Minister of Supply and Steel House, and, as I anticipated, there was quite a degree of difference between the parties as to what was meant by "foolish" and "unpatriotic." Personally, I never had any illusions about the Iron and Steel Federation and felt always that it was best to base our policies on the natural hostility of the industry to the Government's plan, a view which was amply vindicated by Mr. Ellis Hunter, President of the Iron and Steel Federation, in a letter to the Minister. I quote:
'The industry cannot associate itself with members-hip of the proposed control board inasmuch as it would be part of the duties of industrial members of the board to give technical guidance and advice as individuals on issues arising in relation to nationalisation."
There is no ambiguity about that, and I feel that we should be grateful—forewarned is forearmed. Speaking in the Debate to which I referred, I ventured the view that the Government should set up an advisory body drawn from the technical and managerial levels of the industry and that those men should be free from all other economic ties and offered employment within the framework of the machinery to be set up to run the nationalised industry. I regard this question of independent, unbiassed technical advice as one of profound importance. Acting collectively on behalf of the Government and tendering advice on all aspects of the steel industry, such a body as I envisaged would have been in a position to think and act independently of-ownership. They would have been enabled to think and act solely in terms of the national interest. As it is, we are dependent for this technical advice on precisely the same people who have allowed the industry to become hopelessly out of date in terms of world competitive force. There was at the time of appointment, and is now, no case at all for
926
depending on the word of steel monopolists who, for many years, have constituted a state within the State, meeting in secret and engaging in policies diametrically opposed to the best interests of the nation. About the secrecy: quite recently, a periodical, of international repute and circulation, wrote to Steel House asking for the names of the members of the General Council of the Iron and Steel Federation. The information was refused, and the letter concluded:
"It is not customary for the names to be divulged."
Here we are in a democratic society, in which the members of the new Coal Board are known, the names of the members of the Labour Party Executive are known, the names of the General Council of the trades union movement are known, but we cannot have the names of the governing body of the Iron and Steel Federation. Why this Ku-Klux-Klan-like secrecy? Perhaps somebody on the benches opposite will tell me. We are about to set the pattern of a most important industry for a generation, and the importance of this matter cannot be exaggerated. Steel is the basic raw material of our vast engineering and shipbuilding enterprises, it is the basis of one-third of our exports. To build the ships, to make the machinery to cut the coal, to generate and utilise electricity, to manufacture the tools, cloth, and shoes, to till the land, to reap the corn, to bake the bread—for all those purposes, and many others, steel is essential. In those circumstances, the divorce of the plans for nationalisation from the plans for reconstruction is, in my opinion, a major blunder. The Iron and Steel Federation reconstruction proposals are at best a reflection of the degree of compromise which could be arrived at between the various powerful units which make up the industry. They do not reflect the national need, and until this barbed wire of sectarian interest is removed it is impossible to plan nationally.
From the point of view of the nation, the glaring weakness of the present interim board is the fact that the sole technical and managerial advice comes from the representative of that tainted institution Steel House. Here I come to a matter of some delicacy with regard to the two eminent trade unionists appointed. No one in this House has a higher regard for the magnificent services rendered to the nation in peace and war

927
by trade union general secretaries; they do a man-sized job, and they are, indeed, the most harassed of God's creatures. Yet here are two who are expected not only to discharge their responsibilities to their members, but to find time to play an effective part in the reconstruction of this vitally important industry, which in its initial stages will cost, as we know, £168,000,000. In the light of the magnitude of the task this does seem to be quite fantastic I have said, that I regard this question of independent, unbiassed, skilled managerial and technical advice as most important, and I do so for these among other reasons. When the national Coal Board wants machinery to mechanise and modernise the coal industry, it has to go to an outside agency, the steel industry. But when the steel industry reconstructs itself at a cost of £168,000,000, it allocates the contracts to itself. This, from the point of view of a Socialist Government, is a most dangerous situation, because with nationalisation in the offing and having regard to the record of the gentlemen concerned, what is likely to be their attitude? Will it not be one of getting what they can while they can? During the last iron and steel Debate, I asked the Minister what tenders had been received for the new Brabazon aircraft erection buildings at Filton, Bristol, and what variation there had been in prices, if any. No answer was received during the Debate—I make no complaint about that—but some time after a reply was received by post. Here is what the reply said:
"The five tenders received were for identical amounts."
Identical amounts. Having regard to the vast expenditure on which we are now to embark, the House would do well to reflect upon the significance of that reply. Another example: A lively and progressive engineering concern of my acquaintance invited tenders for 25-ton steel castings required for the building of large presses of up to 1,000 tons. An American firm quoted £62, the English Steel Corporation quoted £95 and the Steel Company of Scotland £134 per ton. This is strictly relevant to the remarks of the Lord President of the Council in his little exchange with the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) this afternoon. Thereafter the English Steel Corporation informed our friends that,
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although they would be very pleased to carry out this work for £95 per ton, the contract had now been allocated by the Iron and Steel Federation to the Scottish concern at the price of £134 per ton. The House must ask itself the question, if contracts covering reconstruction are to be allocated on this closed shop basis, what sort of fixed capital cost per ingot ton is the State going to inherit when it eventually takes over the industry? This industry could be so burdened with fixed capital costs that it could never be a force in terms of world competition. What would be said then by the enemies of Socialism about the efficiency of State enterprise?
This is a very pertinent question. It seems to me of paramount importance that Parliament should know just how this £168 million is made up. We must have a broken down analysis. We want to know how much is for sites, how much for foundations, how much for buildings, how much for equipment, and how the quoted prices compare with prewar prices, and with American prices. It is not sufficient to wave the hand and say that everybody knows that prices are ahead of prewar prices. We require to know how much each stage of production is increased. For example, the 1936 figure for steel buildings erected was £16 15s. per ton. What was the price per ton of steel, the number of man hours worked, the cost based on the then wage rates, and what are the current comparative figures? In the case of equipment, we require to know how much of the increased price is due to increased cost of metal, wage costs of moulders and fitters and others, how much the increased overheads are and by how much the profit is increased? We require to know, if the cost is up 80 per cent., whether the profits are to be up 80 per cent. Finally, we want to know how these costs compare with current U.S.A. costs for similar foundations, buildings and equipment. The point I wish to stress with all the emphasis at my command is that the State has a vital interest in the future competitive force of the steel industry. Because of this, we must carefully weigh the claims of low costs, at new sites, against the social burdens of changes in location. This Government will always weigh the social consequences of each and everyone of their Acts, but when setting the pattern of an industry so important as this for a generation, we cannot assess

929
social consequences in terms of of three or four years.
I commend the decision to proceed with the South Wales strip mills, but there are certain questions which have to be asked, and I hope there will be answers in the course of the Debate. As I understand it, the cost of the new South Wales mills is in the neighbourhood of £40 million. I trust that we shall have a broken down analysis. The cost of the Ebbw Vale strip mills was £5 million, the new coke ovens, blast furnaces, melting shop and power house cost another £5 million, in all £10 million. I am aware that the new mills have a larger capacity than had Ebbw Vale, but, even so, £40 million- seems a large sum to me, and grotesquely high compared with similar American plants. I have a suggestion to make in regard to the South Wales proposal to which I hope the Government will give close consideration. It is that the Government should immediately nationalise that section of the steel industry concerned with sheeet and tinplate. In all the circumstances, this seems the commonsense thing to do. Almost a quarter of the projected £168 million expenditure is centred on the South Wales proposals. A major operation has to be performed, and, large companies, notably Guest Keen, Richard Thomas, Briton Ferry, John Lysaght and Llanelly Steel have to be merged. Unification of financial, technical and administrative functions has to be arranged. Banks and, one assumes, the ubiquitous insurance companies, will have to be brought into the scheme of things, because of the large amount of capital required. If we marry to the companies I have named the Summers interests and the small, mainly obsolete, plants outside the big companies, the whole of the sheet and tin-plate industries are brought under one head. Having regard to the need for speed and efficiency and, above all, the desirability of eliminating paralysing uncertainty, would not the immediate nationalisation of this section of the industry be a cleaner, simpler, more straightforward job, than that which has been proposed?
Prewar production of sheet and tin-plate was approximately two million tons, equal to three million tons of ingots, roughly a quarter of our ingot steel production. Not less important, this part of the industry accounted for 50 per cent. of our direct steel exports. Except
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to say that the acceptance of my suggestion would mean the speedier redemption of a political pledge, I do not want to touch upon the political aspects of steel tonight. But it must be understood that to all Socialists the political aspects of steel are at least as important as the economic—[Laughter.]—Hon. Members opposite may laugh: make no mistake, that is how we feel on these benches. It is obvious, even to the uninitiated, that just as our present living standards could not have been achieved without the great steel development of the last century, so a Socialist reorganisation of society depends upon a much more extensive use of steel. In these circumstances, I hope that the Government will give close consideration to the suggestion I have made in regard to South Wales.
Mr. Speaker: May I call attention to the remarks I made earlier, and also point out that it is much more interesting if we can have debating speeches, not written speeches?
7.11 p.m.
Colonel Lancaster: In further-ance of your admonition, Mr. Speaker, I will cut my speech very short. There are only two points I want to make. This is the second occasion in a fortnight upon which this matter of production has been discussed in the House. I have listened very carefully on both occasions, and, quite frankly, there have been only two speeches from the Government benches which seem to me to indicate anything other than complacency with the present position. I consider that note was struck the other day by speeches by the hon. Members for East Middlesbrough (Mr. A. Edwards) and Chesterfield (Mr. Benson). Both approached the problem from somewhat different angles, but it seemed in both cases that they were well aware of what lay ahead of us, and within the bounds of their party allegiance they indicated clearly the road towards which we are heading.
Hon. Members in all parts of the House probably remember the letter which appeared in "The Times" about three weeks ago written by Lord Brand. In that letter he indicated very clearly the situation with which we shall be faced, not this year, nor possibly next year, but within a measurable time. The time of strain will undoubtedly be when the

931
seller's market is coming to an end, and when the resources available under the loans from the United States and Canada are also reaching their completion. In the Government's approach to this problem of production two fundamental mistakes are appearing. I do not for a moment doubt the intentions of the Government Front Bench in regard to this problem, but I am extremely concerned with the actual position at this moment, and the direction in which we are heading. I had intended fortifying my remarks with figures, but in view of the shortness of the time at my disposal, I will indicate two general weaknesses which are showing themselves, and confine myself to that.
It seems to me that if the Government are logically to pursue this general policy of controls and priorities to its inevitable end, they will sooner or later be faced with the necessity for some control in the direction of labour. Bottlenecks are beginning to appear, caused by the inadequacy of labour at particular points. If the free play of supply and demand is not to take its place in this general structure, it is inevitable that the Government should reach a stage where they will have to contemplate that excessively difficult decision, because undoubtedly, from a political angle as well as any other angle, that decision will be most difficult. That is one of the difficulties. The other, to which I will refer briefly, is beginning to show itself in the structure of the only nationalised industry on which we can, even at this early stage, base any conclusions. After all, what have we to judge the Government by? So far as the nationalisation of the banks and communications and matters of that sort are concerned, nothing very much has occurred to enable us to draw any reasonable inferences.
Even in the question of the nationalisation of coal these are obviously early days to formulate conclusions. But certain things are beginning to show themselves. I will, for a few moments, describe them, because it seems to me that the pattern which has been set up in regard to that particular form of nationalisation may well be followed by variations, in other fields. We have recently heard a great deal about planning, as though it were something which had only recently been thought about. Actually it is not something which only occurs at one level; it
932
must occur at every level, every day, if it is to be effective. Planning is a function of administration. But let us look at the composition of the Coal Board. How is it composed? On it are eight or nine very eminent men, but at least six of these men are eminent in a particular technical direction. The only members of that Board who can lay claim to administrative ability on a high level are the chairman and vice-chairman, and, in another capacity, Lord Citrine.
On the shoulders of these three men has the whole administrative onus of directing the initial steps of this immense industry fallen, and with what result? It is now four or five months since the setting up of that Board. Not a single direction has been issued by that Board to the existing managements by which they can attune their present policy to enable that Board to take over effectively at the vesting date. What is the position today? On Monday, we had the announcement of the vesting date. Within 48 hours of that, the Board came to individual managements and said, "We admit that the position administratively is weak. Will you nominate individuals company by company to remain on and help us in that field?". We warned them that it was inevitable. Anybody who was aware of the administrative difficulties that lay ahead saw that they would come to that point. This situation has arisen because the planning department of the Government responsible for this Measure ignored the framework of their problem—administration.
It is difficult to develop a theme of this sort in a few sentences, but I have tried to indicate two directions in which the Government are deficient. One is shortage of materials at this moment. No doubt the right hon. and learned Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade is only too well aware of this. Take the position, for example, in regard to electrical engines under 100 horse power. They are practically unobtainable. Take such materials as light rails, bent bars, mild steel plates and a host of requirements, without which we cannot get the industries of this country under way. The second aspect is this lack of planning in regard to what is actually required. I have tried to show, by the analogy of the Coal Board, that the main essential was ignored, and how the inevitability of

933
that position has thrust itself on the situation today. If we are to get anywhere, on the lines which the Government are trying to pursue, it can only be done if they see clearly how they wish to attain their objective. At the present moment it seems to me that they are ignoring this essential and without clear thinking and the recognition of the implications of their policy they are doomed to failure.
7.20 p.m.
Mr. Hobson: I considered with great interest the terms of the Opposition Amendment to the Address in reply to the Gracious Speech, and I noticed that in their condemnation of nationalisation there is no specific mention of electricity. Their friends the Liberal Nationals have been far more specific. They have stated in no uncertain terms that to nationalise electricity is contrary to the best interests of Britain. I think in this House, on many occasions, there have been proposals for the reorganisation of the electricity industry. When the party opposite were in power, they realised the necessity for setting up an inquiry. As a result, we had the McGowan Report, which was not implemented, largely because of the opposition put up by my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council. Two forms of organisation were suggested there. They were monopoly and local authority. Also, the method of compensation to the local authorities was to be one merely of payment-of outstanding debts, whereas the private companies were to be compensated on the basis of future profit. We have had experience of that form of reorganisation and we have seen what that method of compensation has led to in the case of the London Passenger Transport Board.
To suggest that the nationalisation of electricity is a new idea, is to deny the facts. In the Electric Lighting Acts of 1882 and 1888, it was envisaged that, ultimately, electricity would become publicly owned. Local authorities can exercise their purchasing rights. At the moment we have a national technical direction of electricity in the form of the grid. I think that we can say that the grid has lowered considerably the cost of electrical current largely because of the saving of plant. It is no longer necessary to carry the number of spare turbo generators, which are exceedingly expensive, or the same number of boilers. We
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have been able, also, to equalise the load factor which has resulted in a reduction of costs. Further, we have succeeded in bringing about a great measure of standardisation. Frequency has been standardised at 50 as a result of the introduction of the grid and the number of generating stations has been reduced from something like 500 to 187. The grid system came through the strain of war with flying colours, entirely because we were able to switch from one generating station to another. I admit that with the national technical direction which exists now there are great weaknesses, and it is because we want to eradicate them that we propose the public ownership of the electricity supply industry.
First among these weaknesses, I would put the fact that the technical staffs are compelled, by virtue of the organisation, to serve two masters. On one hand, they have to serve the C.E.B. control, and on the other, the power company or the local authority. I have had experience of the disadvantages of dual control. I was working in a power station not very far from here when the electricity supply was cut, yet we had boilers banked which were up to pressure and could have been put into use, and also we had spare turbo alternators available. I am convinced that if a full examination was made of the facts behind the cuts in electricity supply it would be found that a common cause is dual control. When new stations were built during the war I was surprised that they were not controlled by the Central Electricity Board. It seemed wrong that the Central Electricity Board should build a station at Early, Reading, and then hand it over immediately to Edmundsons. In future, I hope that we shall see that all stations come within the ambit of public control.
It is important that attention should be paid to the question of the siting of power stations. This has not been done in the past. I will give figures to illustrate my argument. Last year the cost of coal supplied to power stations in the northeastern area was 38s. a ton; in the London area it was 52s. a ton. That is equal to an increase of .1176 per unit generated and, when it is remembered that many million units are concerned, it will be realised that that is an important factor. It is only by public ownership of the industry that we shall be able to introduce a standard price for bulk electricity as

935
it is generated. That is not the position today but there is not the slightest reason why a standard price should not be introduced. With regard to costs I think it has been proved beyond peradventure that as between company undertakings and local authorities the companies are always the more expensive.
I give one or two examples. For in-stance, Kensington, Paddington, and Chelsea come within the orbit of the various supply companies. In my own borough of Willesden, the Harrow Road divides us from Paddington. In Willesden, under a publicly owned and controlled municipal undertaking, we pay ¾d. per unit for power. On the other side of the road, where the supply is controlled by a private company, the price is 1¾d., and yet the same generating station may be producing that electricity. The difference is due to the need for profit and the fact that many of these distributing companies are too much over capitalised. The same argument is true of the city of Glasgow. There is a nice little patch there which is under the control of the Clyde Valley Company. In the case of a two-apartment house, where the electricity is supplied by the Glasgow corporation, the cost per thousand units would be £2 12s. 6d. But in the same city, in the case of a two-apartment house consuming a thousand units supplied by the Clyde Valley Company, the cost would be £3 6s. 1d. That is an increase of 27 per cent.
If we take the figures for the country as a whole, we find that the supply from the local authorities is ½d. a unit cheaper than that supplied by the companies. Great play has been made—particularly by the associated electrical companies, upon whose policy I suspect Edmundsons have a good deal of influence—with the argument that the electricity companies are good employers. They are fairly good employers, but I would point out that in London there was only one power company, the North Metropolitan Electrical Supply Company, which belonged to the Whitley Council before the beginning of the war. Immediately it was obvious that war was about to start and that labour would be at a premium, the companies came rushing in to get the protection of the joint industrial council. So far as the Edmundson group is concerned, we of the Amalgamated Engineer-
936
ing Union have had great difficulty to get them to recognise the shop stewards, and I might pay my tribute to them and say that it was due to the loyalty of the lads on the job that there was not serious trouble during the war.
I am convinced that an examination of the costs, as between the local authority and the companies, will prove that, where the undertaking is publicly owned, it is to the advantage of the public. We have already got national technical direction so far as generation is concerned, and I think I have given sufficient evidence to prove that it has been of advantage to the community. I do not propose to deal with the question of distribution, but I hope to speak on that aspect of the problem when the Bill is presented. I hope, however, that there will be very serious consideration given, without party prejudice, to these matters, and I am convinced that, if that is done, hon. Members will support the legislation suggested in the Gracious Speech with regard to electricity.
7.31 p.m.
Sir Ian Fraser: The agricultural industry is our greatest industry, as I think most people will agree, and there has scarcely been a time in our history when the nation as a whole, and particularly those who live in the towns have been more understanding of its difficulties and more proud of its achievements. Nevertheless, this industry, and all who work in it, are full of anxiety for the future, and why? Because the prosperity which they have enjoyed for the past few years followed upon a very long period of adversity, and it is known to all of them that the prosperity has been sustained by very large direct and indirect subsidies. I believe that the production of our agricultural industry, and the unity of purpose which is in it, will be gravely affected if this anxiety continues for long, and, particularly, if it continues right up to the edge of the next General Election. I submit that we do not want the long-term policy of our agricultural industry to become a matter for party recrimination and argument. If we could only capture something of the unity of spirit that there is about agriculture now, and put it into a long-term policy, it might produce something that would give some certainty to the landowner, to the farmer, to the farm worker and all those who live on and by the land, and they are many. Nearly everyone in the small towns of

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England is indirectly concerned with the prosperity of agriculture, and, if we could only capture something of that unity now, and enshrine it in a policy that would survive electioneering, we would have done something of great service to agriculture.
I want to make a proposal to that end. I start by calling the attention of the House to these facts, which I believe are agreed and will not be contested. All the political parties have promised to bring water to many farms, and most candidates promised to bring it to all farms. All the political parties, and most of the candidates, promised to bring electricity to all parts of the country and to every farm. Most of us are committed to great schemes of drainage. It is agreed among all parties that there should be stable prices. Nobody has yet told us upon what these prices will be based or how they will be stable, but we talk about it and I think we understand what we are saying and that we are all agreed about it. But these policies are largely words, because none of us knows what are the facts of this problem. The nation does not know how much water has to be supplied, or what the cost will be. We do not know what will be the cost of providing electricity. We do not know the cost of these drainage schemes, except that it will be very great. A long-term plan is required in order to bring about these reforms which we have all promised. Let us, I beg, cease promising things the limits of which we do not understand, and the facts in regard to which are not known. Let us, instead, from all sides of the House, come together to find out what are the facts about our great industry.
We are cultivating a great deal of land which is known as marginal land, which must be cultivated in the dangerous times of war, but which costs a good deal to keep in cultivation in times of peace. It is not in the interests of agriculture as a whole, and of that part of agriculture which is best, that we should go on cultivating that part which is least economical. We shall have to do so for a year or two, perhaps for longer, but, in our long-term policy, we must reduce the size of our agricultural industry, because, clearly, we cannot afford it at its present size. May I give the House some necessary figures? In 1938, we had subsidies in agriculture of £15 million. They were the prewar subsidies, with which we are all familiar, on beet and a few other specialised products.
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Then came the war, and, by 1940, the subsidies had risen to £70 million, including, of course, some part of the subsidies on the cost of living. I skip the intervening years, and we find that, by 1946, the Chancellor estimates that the amount of the subsidies is £369 million, and that is not all, because there are, in addition to that, the subsidies on school milk and vitamins and some other products which are related to agriculture. Perhaps the figure is as much as £400 million. Of these subsidies, that on overseas food is just about half, and that on home-grown food just about the other half.
If we take our minds back to the end of the first world war, we find that, over a period of about four years, this country was subsidising its agriculture to the extent of about £160 million, and, when that point was reached, the townsfolk turned against the agriculturists, the Government succumbed, the subsidies were taken away and agriculture went down. That was £160 million over four years, but now we are spending at the rate of about £400 million a year. I represent an agricultural constituency. Most of the workers in my constituency live on and by the land, and what, I think, they would wish for is the certainty that £400 million or £500 million was going to be granted in perpetuity to them by the people who live in our towns. But I fear that a great many intelligent farmers and farm workers today realise that this cannot be. If it cannot be, let us, at any rate, avoid political parties bargaining with each other in what they promise to do on the land—and inevitably fail to do.
Let us stop bargaining with each other and join in bringing our greatest industry on to an economic basis. Let us first limit the size of the agriculture of this country to what we can afford Let us determine whether it is our intention to carry on paying subsidies on imported food, or only on home-grown food. My own view is that we should be prepared to pay a subsidy on home-grown food, because this is our own and is better for us, and it sustains our own greatest industry, and gives us a change of life and work. I do not see why we should pay a subsidy on imported food. Indeed, I think that the hard economics of the situation which would arise if that subsidy were taken off, would be the only way of bringing us down to the basis of reality.

939
In my view, what is needed for prosperity in agriculture is, first, certainty about the future beyond the next few years. That certainty can only be given if those who own the land and the farms, those who lease the farms, who farm them and who work upon them, and all the others who are dependent on this industry, know what its future is going to be—a certainty arrived at in a non-political atmosphere. How can we attain that? I submit that we can attain that by setting up, forthwith, a Royal Commission which will bring together all the facts of this great industry so that we can study them dispassionately, and so that the best brains and intentions of men of all parties may be directed towards sustaining and strengthening our greatest and most important industry.
7.42 p.m.
Lieut.-Colonel Hamilton: It is a pleasure for me to follow the hon. Member for Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) because, although I shall have to disagree with him on some points, his most genuine concern for agriculture is a sentiment which, I think, we can all most heartily share. But I cannot agree that questions of political economy do not come into the matter; I think that they come into it very considerably.
As I recall it, the state of agriculture just before World War II—and that was when I became intimately acquainted with my present Division in West Suffolk—was pretty lamentable. East Anglia is one of our great food producing areas, particularly adapted to arable farming, but, at that time, it was only partially farmed. I could show hon. Members large farms in my own Division which were hardly producing anything at all; I could show them one which was not being touched It was growing nothing but thistles and other weeds. As for the people who lived on the land, their position was also lamentable. The statutory wage in West Suffolk on which an agricultural worker had to bring up his family was 34s.—less than in some other counties, and they were low enough. All over England the agricultural worker seemed to be regarded as an inferior grade of individual who did not need the same standards of wages, housing or amenities as his brother in urban industry, in spite of the fact that he needed just as much skill and.
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probably, on the average, a great deal more knowledge than the factory worker. As for the farmer, he was physically better off although, in most cases, he was in a state of constant mental anxiety. It was rare to find a cheerful farmer.
We on this side of the House had no doubt about the causes of that situation. It was due to the working of the system of unrestricted private enterprise, so dear to the hearts of hon. Members opposite, a system in which our whole economic field is a sort of bear garden in which a number of vested interests struggle with each other for the mastery. There was a time when agriculture was Vested Interest No. I, though it did not help the agricultural workers much. But those times are long since past. In the inter-war years, agriculture was much lower down the scale, and the farmer suffered in consequence. We, also, had no doubt about the remedy. As we see it, even one farmer could not make a success of his single farm if he did not plan and control it. How can we possibly hope to make a success of this tremendous enterprise of farming in Great Britain, and get the maximum amount of good food for our great population, unless it is planned and controlled?
But our sentiments fell on deal ears until World War II broke on us like a bomb-shell and changed everything. Then we had the ironical situation of a Government, predominantly Tory, being forced by the circumstances to adopt a programme, or three-quarters of it, which Labour had been preaching for many years past, and with most remarkable results. It was particularly brought home to me because I was away for five years during the war, and I came back to a very different Suffolk from the one I had left. The whole land was now being farmed—at least every acre of it which the Royal Air Force and the American Air Force left us to farm. Not only that but the people on the land were in an entirely different situation. Those derelict farms of which I spoke were now producing ample supplies of food and employing large numbers. of workers. Many factors were involved, but—and I know that the hon. Member for Lonsdale will agree with me—the outstanding one was the confidence engendered in the minds of the farmers because they knew that they would get a guaranteed market and a guaranteed price.

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However, I cannot agree with the hon. Member on the subject of protection for farmers, because it seems to me that he shares the misconception, which I find very widely spread, that any protection to farmers is a kind of special favour given to them at the expense of the citizen consumer who has to pay much more for his food. I do not believe that that is actually the case; I think the facts are these. Farming is a long-term industry and, as we all know, the farmer is working now for results which will only come in one, two, three or four years' time. If he is at the mercy of international prices, which can go rocketing up and down in the most extraordinary way like the chart of a fever patient, he has not the least idea, when he comes to sell, whether he will make a profit or a loss. Under those circumstances, how can he make large-scale plans and launch out into schemes for developing his equipment and his land as freely as he would have to do if he is going to produce economically?
Sir I. Fraser: Since the hon. and gallant Member has mentioned what I said, perhaps he will allow me to interrupt him for one moment. I do not recall saying anything whatever about leaving the farmer open to the competition of international farmers or growers of food. I did not say that at all; at least, I do not remember saying it.
Lieut.-Colonel Hamilton: I did not mean to imply that the hon. Member said that; what I meant to imply was that the hon. Member shared the misconception that the protecting of the farmer was done very much at the expense of the consumer. If I am wrong in that, I will withdraw it. I did not for a moment mean to suggest that the hon. Member did not want to protect the farmer. I know that he does, just as I do, but I do not believe that judicious protection for the farmer is necessarily going to make food more expensive. That is the difference between the hon. Member and myself and I would like to develop the argument a little further.
As I see it, the position is that we have just as good land as, if not better than, our competitors overseas; we have just as good weather for growing things, and we have just as good, if not better, men and farmers. Therefore, provided there is no cheating in the form of ruthless exploitation of land and labour overseas
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or artificial subsidies from foreign Governments, there is no reason at all why our own farmers, if they are good—and if a farmer is not good he must make way for one who is—should not produce food just as economically as their overseas competitors. In fact, I think that they are probably doing that now.
It is very hard to get an exact comparison between home produced and foreign produced foods, because so many factors enter into it. There are the question of acreage payments, and the question of what, exactly, is the corresponding grade of food produced by both. However, by and large I suggest that there is very little difference, and I think the hon. Member's figures themselves show it. I was going to quote them too. We pay just about the same subsidy to home producers as we pay for foreign produced food—about £180 million or thereabouts in each case. That seems to me to show conclusively that this large subsidy, about £1,000,000 a day, on food is not, as so many people seem to think, a subsidy to agriculture at all: it is a subsidy to the consumer. Just as we think it worth while to put the whole cost of producing pure water on to rates and taxes in order that the consumer can get his pure water free, so we think it worth while to put a considerable part of the cost of food on to taxes in order that the consumer can get it at a very moderate price. But it is not a favour to the farmer, it is a favour to the consumer.
In no respect was there a greater change to be found than that in the people living on the land. The farm worker had been a somewhat downtrodden and ignorant individual, but the B.B.C. and war experiences had enlarged 'his mind, and put him in quite a different position. Now, when he is urged to think for himself and to stand on his own feet, he is only too ready to do so—indeed, that is why I am here today. Justice always demanded that the farm worker should get a fair deal, but now he demands it himself, very firmly; and if he does not get it he will not stay on the land. This point has been made by many speakers on both sides of the House, and I will not enlarge on it, except to say that I hope the Government will do everything they can to foster the interests of the farm worker in this great industry, and his feeling of responsibility for it. I am very glad that he is now represented on the county committees, and I would like

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to see his representation equal to that of the farmers. Speaking for my own constituency, I know the farmers would have no objection to that.
In conclusion, may I say that we welcome criticisms from all quarters of the House, if, as the Lord President said, they are constructive. But I hope no one will forget the fundamental fact that under a Tory system agriculture languished. Under a system of planned Socialism it is going ahead, and will continue to go ahead. I notice that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) has his name down in support of this Amendment. Some days ago he made a speech in which he implied that there was competition between town and country, and that under a Socialist Government, drawn predominantly from the towns, agriculture would suffer. It just shows how difficult it is for hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite to grasp the facts of Socialist planning. Why should there be any competition? If the right hon. Gentleman has a garden of his own, I wonder if he thinks that he must neglect his orchard in order to develop his kitchen garden? Because we want to develop our coal, our iron and steel, our textiles and everything else, is that any reason why we should not develop our land also? They are all complementary to each other. We want to see the people in the countryside drawing a good income, and buying freely the consumer goods and every sort of. farming equipment from the towns; and we want to see the townsfolk, in their turn, buying ample supplies of good, wholesome food from the agricultural community. They will prosper together, and I believe that under this Government we will get a countryside in which both sides of the House and everybody in the country can take a pride.
7.55 P.m.
Mr. Baldwin: I congratulate the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Sudbury (Lieut.-Colonel Hamilton) on what he said with regard to the farm labourers. As a farmer I welcome those remarks. I hope both he and others who represent the farm workers will play with us and not against us, because I feel that in agriculture the interests of both are wrapped up one with the other. The farm worker cannot get the good wages to which he is entitled, nor can he get the amenities to which he is entitled,
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unless the industry is a thriving one. I believe the hon. and gallant Gentleman compared the wages of the farm worker in 1939 with the wages today, and rather took credit to the Socialist Party for that large increase. I would remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman what the wages of the farm workers were in 1931, when the Socialist Party was in power.
Lieut.-Colonel Hamilton: Not in power, in office.
Mr. Baldwin: I can only say that if the Socialist Party could make the big mess they did in those days when they were not in power, thank goodness they were not in power.
Mr. Kirkwood: What about all the years before that? The country was bled white.
Mr. Baldwin: The farm workers cannot get those wages unless the goods they are helping to produce are selling at a reasonable price. The interests of the farm worker and of the farmer are wrapped up one with the other. I want to follow the line taken by the Leader of the House, when he suggested we should be constructive. I want to be constructive in the very few remarks I have to make. The Minister I want to help is the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because I realise that in fact, if not in name, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is the Minister of Agriculture. One of the very big problems with which the Chancellor is faced is to close the gap between the cost of imports and the value of our exports. I believe that in the Budget statement the gap was put at something like £750 million, which is a very big sum. Our export trade has to reach a figure 175 per cent higher than prewar days before the gap can be closed. That is a big increase. One also has to remember that gradually the consumer demand of the world will tend to become competitive, and will probably tend to decrease. Therefore, I suggest to the Chancellor that the way to close the gap is to save a little bit of money on the imports to this country by producing a little bit more from the land of this country. I feel quite confident that the farming industry can increase the value of home production by at least 50 per cent. That 50 per cent. would help very substantially in decreasing the gap between imports and exports. During the war we increased our production by, I

945
think, something like 60 to 70 per cent., and that increased production was achieved with the help of casual and unskilled labour.
Today we are carrying on with slave labour, woman labour, child labour, and holiday workers. Unskilled labour of this sort cannot get full production. The farmers of this country do not want this slave labour. The hon. Member who represents the Agricultural Workers' Union in this House is reported to have said at a meeting the other day that he did not want to see Poles dumped on the land. Neither do the farmers of this country want to see Poles dumped on the land of this country. He asked when we were going to employ the British workers. There is nothing we want to do more than to employ the skilled British worker, but before we can employ the old-fashioned, steady farm labourers we must have houses for them. At the present time, in the remote districts, we could not employ any more regular labour than we are employing. We have not got the cottages, and I regret to say that there is no prospect of getting the cottages. In my constituency, there is no sign of any cottages being built in the quarters in which they are wanted, and I am told, on reliable authority, that the rural district councils have been instructed to stop the building of agricultural cottages. That information has been given me from several quarters which I look upon as reliable. If that is so, then, I think, the prospect of the farmers for the next harvest is a very lean one.
I want to say one other word about these cottages. The tendency is to build them in the villages. This means that those who have to go to work have three or four miles to walk or cycle in all weathers. I do not believe that the men and women of this country want to be herded together in villages. They want to have a home where they can have a garden, a bit of land to themselves, and where they can keep their poultry and pig, and feel that they are not being overlooked all the time.
Mr. David Jones: Can they not do that in the villages?
Mr. Baldwin: No, Sir. I think there would be a good deal of trouble if the people, all herded together in a village,
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started keeping pigs in their gardens. Why houses are grouped together is said to be because of the amenities, and because of the facilities for the women to go shopping. There is not the slightest reason why these amenities cannot be provided out in the lonely countryside. The farmer has to live in these remote districts in order to provide food. He wants running water and electricity. When he gets running water and electricity, the cottages can be provided at the same time. With regard to the shopping facilities, I agree that the women are entitled to reasonable shopping facilities. Therefore, I want to see the transport system improved so that the men and women—and the children going to school—can have the transport they want; and I have no doubt that in the new era which is coming along in transport, we shall see these facilities provided right throughout the country.
I want to say one or two words with regard to feeding stuffs. One of the great problems facing the industry today is the fact that it cannot get feeding stuffs with which to provide poultry, eggs, bacon and a sufficient quantity of milk. There seems to be some confusion as to the availability of feeding stuffs. During the Debate on 30th October on the Feeding Stuffs (Rationing) Order, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, when questioned about the necessity to reduce the feeding ration, said:
"When we are being allocated feeding stuffs, our available supplies are considered before the International Emergency Food Council makes an allocation."
When asked a further question, she replied:
"The International Emergency Food Council allocates all grain and feeding stuffs."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th October, 1946; Vol. 428, c. 741 and 743.]
I asked a Question of the Minister of Food in this House on Monday, in these terms:
"Whether he is satisfied that Great Britain is given a fair allocation of feeding stuffs by the International Emergency Food Council."
The reply was:
"I am satisfied that we are getting a fair share of oil cake, which is the only kind of animal feeding stuff allocated by the International Emergency Food Council."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th November, 1046; Vol. 430, c. 500-501.]
I want to know the truth. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food says the International Emergency

947
Food Council allocates all grain and feeding stuffs, but the Minister of Food says they only allocate oil cake. I think this is a serious matter. We should know what is the truth of the matter. 1 ask that question because we see other countries not only getting sufficient feeding stuffs to provide their own people with all the butter, eggs and bacon which they want, but also making substantial exports to this country—particularly Denmark. I want to know why is it possible for Denmark to obtain the feeding stuffs, whilst we in this country cannot get them? I give another instance. We hear harrowing tales about starvation in mid Europe. How is it possible, if there is such a shortage of food in Europe, that we are at this time importing eggs from Poland, and Turkeys from Hungary; and I saw in the paper this morning that Czechoslovakia proposes to export 2,500,000 gallons of beer, mainly to this country. I want to know why all these countries can get sufficient grains and feeding stuffs to do all this, whilst we in this country have our poultry-houses and pig-houses empty.
There is the question of foreign exchange. Instead of having to import manufactured articles from all these countries, we ought to have the raw materials so that our farmers can manufacture articles themselves. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Sudbury rightly said that the subsidy in the case of agriculture could not be said to be a subsidy to the farmer: it is a subsidy to the consumer. At the present time, I think, the subsidy is something like £369 million. It has risen since the Budget Debate from £355 million, and I think there is no doubt that, by next Spring, the subsidy will be £400 million. What I want to suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer is this: instead of having this uneconomic food subsidy, why not allow food prices to get somewhere on an economic level?
Mr. Gooch: Why did not the hon. Member advocate that at the Election? Say it in the towns.
Mr. Baldwin: I did at the last Election, and I am quite prepared to say so at any meeting. The £400 million does not come out of a hole in the ground. It is collected from the taxpayers and the people of this country before it is passed over as a food subsidy. There is this to remember—
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that by the time £400 million is paid for food subsidy, it has probably meant that £600 million has been collected and that £200 million has been lost on the roundabouts, before it is got back on to the swings.
I suggest that the right way of dealing with that position is to let the money remain in the pockets of the people, and let them spend it in their own way. I know that if I advocated this before a body of consumers, the first thing that would be said would be, "What about the poor people?" I am not advocating a rise in the price of food to touch the poor people of this country. Out of a figure of £600 million I think I could satisfy the poorer consumers of this country. I think I could spare sufficient of that money to put them in quite a happy state. For instance, I would not collect any Income Tax from any taxpayer with an income of £400 or less. I would leave that in their pockets, and let them spend it. I would increase the old age pensions, and any other pensions, sufficiently to see that the pensioners did not suffer from a rise in the price of food. I would let the rest of us pay an economic price for our food and, if I spent £100 million in satisfying that part of the community, I should have saved the Chancellor of the Exchequer £500 million, and he could then take off that pernicious tax, the Purchase Tax; he could reduce Income Tax, and he could reduce Customs and Excise duties. Before this country carries on much longer, I think it will be found necessary to reduce all these taxes.
I remember a very good speech from the other side of the House in the Budget Debate as to the amount any country can stand in the way of taxation. My recollection is that the speaker said that the taxation figure at this time was something like 50 per cent. to 60 per cent., and he added that no country could stand more than 25 per cent. to 30 per cent. The suggestion I have made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer would enable him to get down to something like the figure mentioned.
I want to say one word about another matter which is exercising the minds of many hon. Members on both sides of this House. That is the question of the large area of land requisitioned for training purposes. We know well that it was necessary during the war but we feel—

949
and I think I shall have the approval of some hon Members opposite—that to keep these large areas for training purposes, thereby reducing the land available for agriculture, will have a very damaging effect on this country. I suggest to the Government that, instead of using these large areas of land in this country, it would be a better proposition to do the training in the wide open spaces of the Empire. I have recently had a few weeks in East Africa, where there is a lot of undeveloped and undevelopable land, excellent for training purposes. There is a very nice climate, and it is a part of the world to which I am perfectly certain our young trainees would love to go for their training. I suggest to the Government that they might give these young men a chance of seeing another part of the world, and doing their training at the same time.
Before resuming my seat, I want to make one last appeal to the Government to recognise this great industry of agriculture with a little more sympathy. I am fully aware that the Minister of Agriculture cannot enter into negotiations with representatives of the farming industry with a free hand. He has always to keep in mind that he has the Chancellor of the Exchequer looking over his shoulder. I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give him a fairly free hand, remembering that it is the largest single industry in this country, and is the only industry producing real wealth, and also that it employs more men and women than any other industry. I know that I am up against the export trade. I do not think there is anything very clever in an export trade, in which, as before the war, coal, our only raw material of any value, had to be subsidised to bring back butter, eggs and poultry from Denmark. My suggestion is that these commodities should be produced in this country and coal should remain for manufacturing purposes. I know that the slogan today is "Export or die," but if we do not go in for full production in the countryside, it will be "Produce or perish."
8.16 p.m.
Mr. Scott-Elliot: The Amendment moved by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) alleges that the Gracious Speech contains no practical proposals for increasing production. That seems to me to be a very questionable statement. There
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are two ways to get increased production. Firstly, we can increase production by the means of greater efficiency from those already working in industry, and secondly, we can try to secure an increased input of the manpower which is not already being used in some parts of the country, namely the development areas. The Gracious Speech makes a specific statement about development areas, and the Government are doing everything in their power to help. I want to say a word on distribution of industry about which comparatively little has been said. I want to show that there are large numbers of people who can be brought into production in the development areas. The latest Ministry of Labour unemployment figures indicate that the total number unemployed in this country is something like 365,000. My estimate is that the six development areas contain at the present time something like 165,000 unemployed persons. In other words, there is a very large surplus of labour which can be brought into production if only these areas have a better distribution of industry.
For the benefit of hon. Members who may not be familiar with this subject may I say what constitutes a good distribution of industry? To have a good distribution of industry an area must have sufficient, but not more than sufficient, industrial capacity—I use those words in the widest possible extent, covering workshops, factories and offices—to employ the total population. Moreover, it must not depend on any one particular form of production, and there must be a proper balance in the amount of employment available for men and women. I do not want to take up the time of the House, but I should like to give two examples. During the war it was necessary for the purposes of production to put into an area which already had a good deal of production in it further munition capacity, with a result that it became hopelessly congested and suffers today from a chronic shortage of labour. Such an area is Leicester. On the other hand, there are the areas like the development areas which depend to a great extent on one particular form of industry and which' have far too little industrial capacity.
Apart from the difficulty of finding the right jobs for those released from the Forces and munitions, the unemployment problem in the development areas falls, broadly speaking, under three headings.

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Firstly, there is short-term unemployment due to the delay in reconversion of existing factories from war production to peacetime production. However vexatious and frustrating that may seem, and it will seem frustrating and vexatious, we have to make the best of it and recognise that there must be some hiatus in production. Then there is the medium-term problem of unemployment due to the delay in the building of trading estates and factories for which building licences have been granted by the Board of Trade to individual firms. Thirdly, and by far the most serious, is the long-term unemployment problem, due to the overall insufficiency of productive capacity in a development area to provide work for the total working population. It might be said: How comes it about that the war did not cure this development area problem? I admit that a great deal of munitions capacity was put into these areas, but far too much of it was in the shape of royal ordnance factories. They were efficacious in employing people during the war because they worked the three shift system, and employed many thousands of people, but when it comes to reversion to peace they will employ many fewer people, on the one shift basis, than they employed during the war.
But this is not all. As one who took a humble part in trying to mobilise men and women workers during the war, I can testify to the fact that at the height of our mobilisation of man and woman power in 1943, when we were seeking every means to bring more people into production, there were tens of thousands of workers, mainly women, in the development areas, anxious to take their part in the war effort but unable to do so for lack of factories. That was due to the difficulty we had of persuading contractors, working for the Supply Departments, to go to these areas. When planning for the postwar period began my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when President of the Board of Trade, in the Coalition Government, found himself faced in a development area with a serious shortage of industrial capacity. He decided that there must be a large extension of the existing trading estates, which had been functioning in a small way previously, also to give building licences to firms who were willing to set up in the development areas. If these two things had not been done, and done
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betimes—and they were started at the beginning of 1944, before we had set foot in France—the problem of the development areas would today be a most serious one, and we might have an additional quarter of a million people unemployed. In other words, this policy of trading estates and individual building licences has been the salvation of the development areas.
I would like to say a word about how much has so far been achieved. It is all very well to have the thing on paper, but it does not always work out so well in practice. My right hon. and learned Friend the President of the Board of Trade has been to development areas, and has probably seen much more than I have seen. He knows that the most vital need is to build factories as quickly as possible. Moreover, he knows that there is a serious shortage of certain raw materials. There is a shortage of steel in Scotland, as I saw when I was there. I am also told that there is a shortage of lead developing at the present time. Moreover there is a direct conflict between the factory and house building programmes. I believe that at present an equal degree of priority can be given on a regional level to factory building, to put it on, a par with house building, but unless we can do more than that unemployment will drag on in these areas for too long a time. I therefore think that in appropriate cases some degree of overriding priority ought to be given at the regional level for those focal points, Which badly need development, if the people in those areas are to find employment.
Then again, despite all that has been done—and I speak as one convinced that the back of the problem in the bulk of the development areas has been broken—there is still a problem in Scotland, a very serious problem, due to this lack of industrial capacity to which I have referred. On the facts and figures which I have, but which I do not propose to quote to the House, I believe that not a great deal more than half of the problem has yet been definitely solved. I recognise that with the development areas of the North East coast and South Wales becoming more stabilised, that it is reasonable to suppose that more industrialists will go to Scotland. Inquiries have been coming forward from substantial firms during the last few months, but I do not believe, unless something special is done,

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that we shall succeed in solving this problem. There are 16 trading estates, I believe, built or building, but more are needed. I suggest to my right hon. Friend that he should make an approach to some of the big industrialists, who are, he knows, willing to expand, and tell them that the Board of Trade would build for them factories of 100,000 or 200,000 square feet at specially selected spots in the Lanarkshire development area if they would go there, and give a firm undertaking to take over those factories when they are built. This problem has to be solved quickly. At the present time industrialists are willing to go to the development areas because they know that those are the only places Where they can get labour and factories. But this state of affairs is not likely to obtain very long. In the event of a trade recession in the United States industrialists might be very much less willing to go to the development areas than they are today.
I feel that I have told a short story, but a story which is a practical one as opposed, if I may say so, to the rather theoretical lines of approach taken by the Opposition this afternoon. Let us recognise that the people in these areas have suffered much. Before the war they suffered from heavy unemployment and dire poverty. During the war they suffered by seeing the flower of their young men and young women taken away and drafted into the Forces or directed into the congested areas to work on munitions. I make no complaint about that. As one who took some part in it, I recognise that it was necessary. Today, however, they look for a new deal. They look for the return of their sons and daughters. They look for a chance to work within reasonable travelling distance of their homes. It is for us in this House to see that they are given a new deal and an opportunity to live fuller and therefore brighter and happier lives in the days that are to come.
8.29 p.m.
Mr. Heathcoat Amory: All of us, I am glad to say, accept the truth that the supreme need is greater production per head. What we have as a nation to do now is to face up to the implications of this without any reservations whatever. The greatest danger is complacency—I suppose that is our besetting national sin. Whichever way you look today, there are surely no grounds for complacency. In
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a very few minutes I want to try to deal with four points.
The first is relations in industry. It is true, I think, today to think of industry as consisting of three partners—the employer, the employed and the Government. We talk about a partnership, but is there really an effective working partnership today? Are these partners really pulling in the same direction? I feel that too often' one or other partner is neutral and passive when his active cooperation is so essential.
I am speaking this evening as a manufacturer. I feel that all three partners need an entirely new outlook. Do not let us think too much of the past. We have all made mistakes, and missed opportunities, in the past, but I suggest that at the present time there is an absolutely unequalled opportunity for making a fresh start and working together on more sensible lines. Now when the whole of industry is replanning its system of production it seems to me to afford a splendid opportunity for doing something better in the future than we have done in the past.
I suggest that those of us who are employers would do well to regard relations with those whom we employ as by far and away the most important side of our business. I suggest to the employed, and particularly to the trade unions, that now is the time to take rather a wider view of their responsibilities and really to come in keenly at all levels in joint enterprises. I do not want to talk about strikes, but I feel there is this to be said about "go slow" methods, that they are something which is not very honest. If a person strikes, he withdraws his labour, and he is not paid, but if he goes slow, in a great many cases he receives full pay for doing only part of a job. To the Government representatives, in their relations with industry, I suggest that their attitude should be, "How can we help these chaps to get on with their job?" instead of that one meets with occasionally, which is a sort of attitude of, "We warn you that anything you will do will be taken down and used in evidence against you." I suggest to Government speakers at weekends that it really does not help much to abuse those who are responsible for running the present system. Let' them by all means abuse the system, if they like, but to concentrate abuse upon those who, under great difficulties, are trying

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to keep the present system working in face of the unprecedented difficulties that exist today does not. help cooperation.
All those things are very obvious, but I mention them because I believe that if we can get the right attitude to each other among the three partners, many of our difficulties will disappear. I hope we shall, all of us, support wholeheartedly the system of joint consultation and planning at all levels—the factory, industry, and the nation. I believe it is the soundest and most promising way of getting better cooperation within industry. Unfortunately, it has not gone very far yet, but I hope we shall have an extension at all levels—in the workshop and in the factory, because there the foundations are laid for true cooperation, at the level of the industry, because then we may carry on the work of the working parties and enable the fruit of their work to be reaped. And at the national level, is there not a case for extending the scope of the National Joint Advisory Council? I do not know. I only suggest that.
About a week ago I had the privilege of taking the chair at the monthly production committee meeting of a factory with which I am closely associated. We are getting on very well, and the great thing is that by our contacts we are with each other learning a great deal which will, I think, make a tremendous difference to production. I am reminded of an experience I had during the war when, for a time, I was a very humble member of a joint planning staff—joint in the sense of being inter-Service, and also being Anglo-American. I remember that when we started, all sorts of tiny differences of outlook had a way, in some extraordinary fashion, of becoming exaggerated into immense obstacles which absolutely blocked progress.
Then, as time went on and we got to know one another's outlooks better, and with the display of almost superhuman patience, the thing began to work, and, eventually, in the course of time, the technique of true cooperation was evolved and practised. I believe that the same thing applies in industry. The absolutely essential thing is that those concerned should show that they really believe in this system and mean to make it work. If they do that it will work, but not otherwise.
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The second point with which I want to deal very briefly is that of incentive. I believe that if incentives are right the effort will be made and the battle will be won. But incentives are not right today, and anyone who looks round objectively must agree that that is so. I am not one of those who believes that material reward is the only or even the best incentive, but there is no doubt that it is a very powerful one, and I suggest that it is madness not to make the most of it. I want to be selective this evening in the bricks I cast at the Government, but I charge them very definitely with dangerous neglect of this powerful motive today. Almost everything they have done since they have been in power has tended to eliminate reward for a more than average achievement and, on the contrary, to encourage a desperately low average performance. I am certain that the Government will, sooner or later, be forced to do two things—first, encourage payment by results in every possible way and without any regard to how far that carries them, and, secondly, revise the system of direct taxation so that its predominating principle will be the encouragement of effort.
My third point concerns controls. I only want to say from the manufacturers' point of view that I have no doubt whatever that the most frustrating feature of controls at present is the delays in obtaining day to day decisions. The cumulative effect of these delays, which are perhaps not unreasonable considered individually, is absolutely devastating to sensible planning in industry. The numberless consultations and cross-references that have to take place before the green fight can be given for the simplest executive action inevitably bring the enthusiasm, drive, and momentum for any improvement in service or increase in production to an absolute stop. Worst of all is when anything involved in building is concerned, because then one has to get into touch with five or six different authorities, and the result of all this delay is that one is driven in almost every case to improvise some alternative solution so that when the final decision comes it is too late. I ask the Government to realise that speed of decision is absolutely vital to industry. Its veins and arteries are designed for a very brisk rate of blood flow, and if that rate is slowed down one is bound to get growing inefficiency. We

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would rather risk having a wrong decision occasionally that have to wait weeks and even months for a decision which, when it does come, is in the nature of things not infallible. I suggest that Government administrators should do four things.
First, simplify the present channels; secondly, cut out those irritating low level controls which clog the machine itself and do not really achieve-a great deal of fundamental importance; thirdly, give their subordinates wider powers of decision—I believe the right hon. and learned Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade has already done something in that direction—and, lastly, try to adapt their procedure to the tempo of efficient industry. And that brings me to my last point—Manpower.
In no field of activity is it more important that the Government should show a faultless example than in manpower. The Prime Minister recently urged us to economise in manpower. He has pointed out that there are many things that we should like for which we cannot afford the manpower. That is very true, but it is the practical example set by the Government in this field that is perplexing the man-in-the-street. The Government appear to be attracting people at a terrific rate from, production into their ever-expanding offices. The man-in-the-street knows Bill or Mabel who were working in a cotton factory and have now transferred themselves to the less exacting atmosphere of, say, the regional petrol coupon office. The man-in-the-street who understands the need for priorities simply cannot reconcile a transfer of this kind which appears to be directly sponsored and encouraged by the Government, with their public exhortations. I urge the Government to remember that they are directly responsible today for a very large industry indeed. I suppose that their staffs and those of local government and the Services amount to well over three million. It simply does not make sense for them to ration everybody else except themselves. I want to say one word about foreign workers and I hope that one of my hon. Friends will develop this matter further. It seems madness in our present predicament not to take advantage of all suitable immigrants who are prepared to come to this country and help us with their work. The attitude we are adopt-
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ing, in the case of the Poles, for instance, is not only ungenerous but surely stupid from our own point of view.
I will now sum up in four sentences what I have tried to say. First of all, I hope we shall back the system of joint consultation and planning wholeheartedly at every level. Secondly, I hope the Government will remember that success in this campaign depends on providing every possible incentive and that they will come up against failure if they neglect that truth. Thirdly, I believe that of all the features of the controls we have today, the delays are far and away the most harmful to industry. Lastly, in its allotment of manpower priorities and its use the example of the Government today is bad and is doing much harm. I hope that all hon. Members of whatever party will try to take a big view of this production question because without any doubt the penalty for failure is economic calamity for our nation.
8.45 p.m.
Mr. Turner-Samuels: All hon. Members on this side of the House have looked upon the attempt made by the Opposition today in their Amendment as absolutely pathetic. The case put forward by the Opposition Amendment was that no practical proposals for unified free national effort to increase production were to be seen in the Gracious Speech and that further—this appeared to be the pivotal point—the further measures of nationalisation were calculated to confuse and retard recovery. In other words, that was saying that nationalisation was no good at all and that the panacea for national recovery was private or free enterprise. The one thing that the Opposition has evaded this afternoon is any attempt to justify the strengthening of the system of free enterprise to which the Amendment refers. There can be no doubt about that, and it is far better to face it, although some attempt has been made by the Opposition to cover it up. What they are asking this House and the country to accept is, simply and plainly, free enterprise as against any form of nationalisation whatsoever. They have said nothing about the past experience the country has had in connection with free enterprise. After all, there is some history connected with it—some very disastrous history—but they have naturally glossed that over. It is very difficult: to

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see how they can dream for a moment that anybody with any sense left at all is ever going to re-adopt the calamitous system of free enterprise that prevailed before the war. Every by-election since the General Election has endorsed its rejection.
The Amendment says nothing about past nationalisation. There have already been measures of nationalisation. It merely refers to "further measures of nationalisation." Is it suggested by the Opposition that the nationalisation of the Bank of England has confused or retarded recovery? As far as I can see the nationalisation of the Bank of England has made the nation master of its own finance, and has laid it down that no longer will a small body of influential financiers and capitalists be allowed to hold either the Government or the people to ransom. The second instance of nationalisation which we have already had is that of coal. The Opposition cannot draw any solace from the transfer of the coal industry to the nation. Under free enterprise, the coal industry was in a state of constant crisis. That industry was a vital source of our trade but, notwithstanding that, there was constantly gross neglect. It was an example of how far the utter selfishness of free enterprise can be pushed Even at a time when serious competition was forming from abroad, the coalowners took no 'steps whatever to meet that, or to do anything about it. At a time when the coal industry was vital to the trade of this country, no steps whatever were taken to reorganise it when its reorganisation was absolutely indispensable, and the ill-effects from that neglect are not only being felt today but will go on being felt for a very long time.
I have always understood that among the qualities that free enterprise was supposed to possess was, first, that it created competition, and that competition was good for business. The second was that free enterprise was separate and free from State aid and State interference. We shall see how this has worked out. The next was that there was initiative and incentive because there was profit. Another one was that private enterprise kept prices low. The last one, and I think the most significant, was that it got rid of monopoly. Not a single one of those points could be made good today. Let us look at them and firstly, at the
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position of competition and monopoly. Before the war—is there any doubt about it in anybody's mind?—the whole trend of industry was towards amalgamation, trustification and rationalisation, in all the greater industries and services. Where there were smaller businesses, there was consolidation with larger businesses, and groups of businesses were combining with other groups. In addition to that, was that most evil thing, which the Lord President of the Council mentioned before, the practice of price-maintenance agreements. That trend and those methods were applied in the most important industries in the country, such as banks, railways, road transport, shipbuilding, entertainment and food. As far as the smaller man was concerned, for whom, during General Elections, the Opposition always stand as champions, he was slowly and surely disappearing from the scene.
Of course, as competition departed, monopoly came in. An example of the monopoly position can be given in connection with the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton), to whom the Lord President made reference in another way, earlier in the Debate. The right hon. Gentleman was President of the Board of Trade, in the Tory "caretaker" Government which, thank goodness, did not last very long. He was—and it is not a personal matter but a matter of common knowledge—one of the largest monopolists and cartelists that we have. As an illustration of the monopoly to which I have referred there is a long string of metal companies. They include the British Metal Corporation Ltd., the London Tin Corporation, the Amalgamated Metal Corporation Ltd., the Imperial Smelting and British Tin Corporation. There is a whole list of them. They had become amalgamated in the way that I have indicated. The right hon. Gentleman, and this in connection, of course, with metal, at a meeting of zinc manufacturers in 1936, announced that the British group would—and I am quoting now—
"make immediate application to the Government"—
which was, of course a Tory Government—
"for an increase of duties, with: the promise that those duties could be reduced if a cartel was formed."
He went on to add that that policy had successfully brought about a steel cartel.

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It is said that free enterprise has, as one of its qualities, that it is free from State aid and interference. I think most of us remember that big business not only flourished, but survived by means of subsidies, quotas, subventions and Preferences, and by a series of methods of that sort. It is perfectly clear that it is that very process of maintaining industry in the form of free enterprise that it is sought to introduce now. As recently as last week-end the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr Eden), said this—and he regarded it as a cardinal principle of government at the moment:
"It is the function of the Government to make available the necessary capital to finance the industrial equipment and expansion needed in the next few yeans."
The question I ask is, for whom? Is it for free enterprise? Is it for private profit? Because if it is, in that principle is enunciated one of the most dangerous forms of capitalism under the formula of "free national effort." It means, if it is to be applied, that there is to be State control of industry for private profit. If it is to be so, with the emphasis on the word "free," what I want to know from the Opposition is precisely what they mean by the word "free." Does it mean that every man is to be freed to foster and look after his own particular interest, and not care at all about the general interest? Does it mean that every man has a right to employ anybody he wants or cause the unemployment of anybody he wants—because that is very material? I should like the Opposition to define much more precisely what they mean by this word "free."
There is another principle to which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington subscribed. He said the Government were responsible for the strategic planning of our industrial and economic life. Of course we can all see, and agree, that, in future, industry must be reorganised and planned on a much wider front, and with a much greater production potential than it has ever had before. But the issue before the nation, I repeat, is this: in whose interest is this planning to be done? For whose benefit is the nation's money to be spent, and the nation's resources to be used? In my submission the Opposition knows very well that this phrase "free national effort" is merely rhetoric. They accept that State intervention is indispensable, but what they are trying to do is to preserve private
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profit along with it, and they made that very clear as far back as 1934 in Bristol, when they passed a resolution for the reconstruction of industry and the setting up of an industrial board free from political interference. There is no doubt about it that that simply meant industrial dictatorship in the interest of private profit, and that industrial dictatorship in the interests of private profit has one result, to which, of course, they have shrewdly made no reference, and that is the economic enslavement of the masses. That is what always occurred under free enterprise, and that is undoubtedly what will occur again. It is not surprising that with that policy in view, in Dundee in 1908—it is true that the vintage is rather old—[Laughter.]—when the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition had not yet gone astray he said this about such a policy:
"We know what to expect when the Tories return to power, a party of great vested interests banded together in a formidable confederation, dear food for the million, cheap labour for the millionaire."
That is precisely what free enterprise has always meant, and what it will mean today, if allowed to come back. What was the main preoccupation of the National Government before the war? Spending the money of the nation in order to bolster up capitalism. Take the coal industry, transport, shipbuilding, agriculture, housing, that is exactly what was being done the whole of the time. The money of the country was being used to bolster up capitalism in that way. Although, of course, capitalists and the Opposition denounce nationalisation, they are not too proud to take public money in order to bolster up their capitalism. On this question of initiative I do not want to take up time—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."]—I am sure the Opposition are very pleased to get rid of me—[HON. MEMBERS: "Go on."]—but in consideration for my colleagues who I know wish to take part in this Debate, although I have many more counts in the indictment against the Opposition, I will content myself with the points I have already made.
9.3 p.m.
Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Mr. Deputy-Speaker, a few minutes before you came in, Mr. Speaker made an appeal to hon. Members who may be fortunate enough to catch his eye, to be restrained in their remarks. I want

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to assure you that I will rigidly adhere to that admonition. I have listened for six days in this Debate. I have listened to experts on farming, electricity, transport and so on. I have even listened, with some impatience, I admit, to the dogmatic statements of the hon. and learned Member for Gloucester (Mr. Turner-Samuels) and his fantastic misrepresentation of Tory philosophy, a doctrine he does not understand, and has apparently never tried to understand. In all those six days of interesting discussion, I have not once heard the subject of Scottish interests mentioned. Therefore, I take it upon myself to remedy that situation without delay.
I have had the good luck and honour to represent a Scottish seat for more than 21 years. During that time I have never known greater discontent with the administration of Scottish affairs than exists today'. Of course, hon. Members opposite, with strong party ties and, perhaps, not much experience, may not agree with that assertion, but I would like to assure them that I am speaking the truth from deep personal conviction. That being the case—I assume that it is accepted—it is surely the duty of Scottish, and indeed of English Members, to examine this situation, to probe the causes, to try and ascertain the reasons, and, if possible, to find some remedy for these faults, which obviously exist.
Successive Governments, excluding this one, have taken many steps to improve matters. They have practically moved the whole of the Scottish Office staff, except for a small secretariat, to Edinburgh. One Scottish Under-Secretary, at least, spends most of his time in Scotland, and one of the Law Officers spends all his time there. In addition to that, the same successive Governments have delegated a great deal of authority from the central Government to local authorities. As I have said,.-there is wide and growing resentment in Scotland today against this autocratic control from Westminster and Whitehall. There are some obvious reasons. The main one is due to the centralisation policy that has been adopted since the present Government came into office and power.
I should add—I would not be "honest if I did not do so, though I am sorry that none of the Ministers of the Scottish Office is here to hear the truth—there
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is also, whether rightly or wrongly, a belief held in Scotland that the present political heads of the Scottish Office are inadequate properly to represent Scottish interests, both in the Cabinet and in the Government. They have undoubtedly a considerable and quite just popularity in this House. I think that all my colleagues would agree about that. There is the Secretary of State himself, genial, affable and kindly. with a naive though very robust belief that all is best in this the best of all Socialist worlds. There is the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), honest and sincere, though at times a bit violent. He gets away with a lot by his obviously transparent simplicity, which at times is just a bit too obvious. But somehow he does not get things done, at least not as Labour promised to get things done. Then there is his colleague, the other Joint Under-Secretary of State, modest, mild and placatory, so charming in his modesty that we would not have the heart to attack him for his activities, even if we knew exactly what they were.
Of course, there have been various outstanding blows dealt at Scotland during the last few months, which these admirable and amiable gentlemen seemed either unwilling or unable to divert. These have undoubtedly raised alarm throughout Scotland. I need hardly mention Prestwick as a classic case. Betrayal after betrayal has followed since the Government took office and power—let us get that clear. No longer is it an international airport, no longer is it even a national airport. It is forced to go to Dutch K.L.M. and Air France to get work—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): I do not think the hon. and gallant Gentleman is entitled to turn the Debate on this Amendment into a discussion on Prestwick Aerodrome. That is certainly too far removed from the scope of the Amendment.
Sir T. Moore: I was merely using that as an indication or an example of how the Government have failed to provide that unity of purpose for which this Amendment asks. If the Government will provide that unity in Scotland by giving to Prestwick and to various other industrial organisations in Scotland—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am afraid 1 do not admit the hon. and gallant Gentleman's contention. This Amendment deals in the main with production.
Sir T. Moore: Yes, Sir.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is the point to which I hope the hon. and gallant Gentleman will direct himself.
Sir T. Moore: I bow entirely to your judgment, but I would call your attention, Sir, to the statement in the Amendment:
"…there are no practical proposals in the Gracious Speech calculated to unite your Majesty's subjects…
I would say that it the Government had said in the Gracious Speech that to nominate Prestwick and to treat it as an international airport—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] Mr. Deputy-Speaker is quite capable of saying whether or not I am in Order. I will not embarrass you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but I would like to ask—and undoubtedly this is covered by the Amendment—where is the Scottish section of the British European Corporation which we were promised? You do not think that is in Order, Sir?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I certainly do not think so, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman does not in any way embarrass me. He simply departs from what he well knows to be the Rules of the House.
Sir T. Moore: Then, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I will not embarrass my listeners. It is very hard for them to listen to the truth, especially those Scottish Members who have failed so lamentably to play their part when the opportunity offered. Where we are in trouble, of course, is through the Secretary of State for Scotland not playing his proper part and seeing that Scottish interests are properly safeguarded. The trouble is that he is weak. I am sorry that he is not here. I would say it to him perhaps even more directly if he was. He is weak and under the control of a ruthless Chancellor of the Exchequer. Unfortunately, the Secretary of State for Scotland does not stand very high in the queue when it comes to the distribution of Measures designed to promote the welfare of our country. As the President of the Board of Trade knows, we have throughout Scotland day by day men and women being declared redundant in our factories and industrial organisations, principally in the very organisations, such as War Department factories, where they were almost guaranteed a sort of permanency of occupation
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These men and women are being declared redundant without any apparent plan being arranged for their re-absorption into industry. Indeed, there do not appear to be any plans of any kind for their future The result is that we have nearly 80,000 unemployed in Scotland today amongst whom are some of the finest craftsmen in Great Britain, and this at a time, if you please, when the Prime Minister and other Government spokesmen tell us that the shortage of labour is the chief reason, the chief obstacle to our industrial recovery. That just does not make sense to Scotland nor to me.
I do not intend to take up much more time, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, because you rather interfered with my style. I had a lot more to say about conditions in Scotland which I must keep for another day. However, in my criticisms of the Government and in the constructive suggestions which I am about to make, I hope to show a way whereby they might unite the people of Scotland—even if they do not unite anyone else—for an effort at production. I am not an advocate of Scottish Home Rule, nor a Scottish Nationalist, but I see that the disinterest shown by the present Government is causing a growth of the demand that something should be done. This demand emanates from every thinking Scotsman. Therefore. I feel that we must do something about it here, and we certainly will not get it unless we fight.
There are many advocates of control by Westminster who assert that everything can be fixed up and arranged in the Scottish Grand Committee. They say that there are, of course, ample safeguards that Scottish legislation will be directed, reviewed and revised by the Scots themselves. That is an argument of wool which is designed to cloud the whole issue, for the only legislation which is handed over to the Scottish Grand Committee is legislation which is introduced by the Secretary of State for Scotland, and, secondly, the only legislation which he introduces is what is thrown to him, like a bone, by his English colleagues, and, in the queue for legislation, the right hon. Gentleman does not stand very high.
I have a proposal to make, which I make entirely on my own responsibility, and not with the support or backing of any of my Scottish colleagues in the House. It is that, as a means of

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eliminating the present disgust and resentment in Scotland at the people's inability to play their part in creating or advising upon fresh legislation, a Scottish Council should be set up in Edinburgh for mat one purpose of initiating legislation in Scotland. It might be a good thing if, in its composition, it included all the ex-Secretares of State for Scotland not in this House, all the Lord Provosts, all the Conveners of county councils, all the Provosts of the large burghs and certain co-opted or nominated members. It would have to be a statutory body, of course, with all the accessories and adjuncts, to enable it to function smoothly and successfully, and its chief duty would be to initiate Scottish legislation and promote all Bills dealing with Scottish matters.
Will the House listen, for a moment or two, to the advantages of that proposal? If this body remained statutory, it would mean, of course, that the Government of the day, whatever it was, would have to accept the Bills or suggestions made by that council, but subject to debate in this House and subject to any Amendment while it was going through the Scottish Grand Committee. That, briefly, is my suggestion, and I believe it would be acceptable to every shade of opinion in Scotland—[Interruption.] Of course, we have to admit that nothing would pass unless the Chancellor supported it.
Mr. McGovern: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is putting forward the idea of a Nazi Grand Council.
Sir T. Moore: I think the hon. Gentleman sees a Nazi round every corner and underneath every chair. He should not be so suspicious. I had intended to speak on a number of other Scottish topics, but, subject to your decision, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I propose to leave them for another opportunity. I am grateful for having had this opportunity of dealing with the people and the country that means so much to England and the Empire, and without which both England and the Empire would be very poor places.
9.19 p.m.
Mr. Percy Morris: Owing to the lateness of the hour, I am deprived of the opportunity of developing the theme which I wished to submit
968
to the House and, in order that some other hon. Members may have an opportunity to speak, I confine myself to one or two points. During the past few months, we have had a spate of propaganda issued by the four main line railway companies with a view, presumably, to convincing the Government and the public that, if the companies were only given a freer opportunity and additional power, they would solve the traffic problem and bring about the desired coordination. It is a death-bed repentance, and, for that reason, I ask the House to support the Government and to reject the Amendment.
For the sake of clarity, I will divide my contribution under two headings. According to the book issued by the railway companies, there are no less than 7,000 stations needing renovating and attention. They say that, during the next five years, 9,000 miles of track must be entirely relaid, 2,500 miles partially renewed, resleepered and rechaired, 2,800 locomotives built, and 16,000 passenger coaches constructed. In addition, 60 main line stations should be entirely reconstructed. Are we expected to believe that these arrears are entirely due to the war years?
Mr. Erroll: Yes.
Mr. Morris: That is not true, and if the hon. Member will favour me with his attention I can prove, from 33 years' experience of railway service, that much of this work is entirely due to indifference in the sacred name of economy during the prewar years.
One other matter. In 1928, the railway companies were urged, especially by the trade unions, to recognise road transport as a potential source of additional revenue, as a further opportunity of providing facilities for the trading and travelling public and as an opportunity to eliminate an unnecessary competitor. But our representations were treated with indifference, if not with contempt. A few years passed, and the railway companies then came to the railway unions and asked if they would lend a helping hand in order to get a square deal for the railways. Despite our treatment on the previous occasion, we responded, but it was too late, and the war overtook them before they could recover. They have made these difficulties for themselves, and it is

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too late now to ask us to subscribe any further to private monopoly in the transport industry.
Another interesting feature was that during the years between 1928 and 1938 they found it necessary, after rejecting our advice to take an interest in road transport, to try to acquire a financial interest in the road transport undertakings. They acquired an interest to the extent of 49 per cent. That figure has great significance. Had it been 51 per cent., the staffs would have claimed railway conditions, which were slightly, but only slightly, better than the conditions of the road undertakings. The companies contented themselves with having an interest equal to 49 per cent. Will some hon. Member explain to the House why railway stations have always been allowed to be the most dismal places in the country? Reference has been made to Lime Street Station, Liverpool. Has any hon. Member had to use the general waiting room on that station and wait in it from, say, 11 p.m. to 1 a.m. or patronise a railway refreshment room? What surprises me more than anything is that the staff are able to serve with such patience and such diligence, in view of the conditions under which they work. The railway refreshment room is still the standard joke of the comedian.
The railway companies deserve nothing of the public because of their studied neglect. They have only attempted to do something when faced with this new competition. From the public point of view, coordination is essential and unification is desirable. If the programme of work to which I have referred is carried out, the competitive element and the profit-making element must be taken out of it. But I am concerned with an entirely different aspect. In the few minutes at my disposal, I should like to refer to a speech made by the chairman of the Great Western Railway Company in another place last week. The noble Lord has been a very great friend to South Wales. He took an interest in us when most people forgot all about us. But he is chairman of the Great Western Railway, and in his speech he said this:
"One of the chief factors, and one which I myself consider most important in these days of great difficulty, is to have settled conditions in industry. That is almost the biggest priority you can have today. We have been fortunate in having had no major disputes for
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20 years on the railway, and this one attributes to the class of conciliation machinery employed by the railways for settling questions of wages and the conditions of service of our railway staffs."
Reading that speech, hon. Members would be entitled to assume that all is well in the railway world, and that the staffs feel there should be no change. The facts are quite the contrary. In fact, since the Essential Work Order has been removed no less than 15,000 people have left the industry on account of the shocking conditions. A moment ago I referred to the accommodation in respect of the public. For years we have been striving to get decent accommodation for the clerks who serve hon. Members from time to time. For years we have been pressing that decent sanitary accommodation should be made available. It may surprise hon. Members to know that the only accommodation of that kind available is the same as that which is provided for the public, which is totally inadequate and very unsatisfactory. When staffs have asked for the medical officer of health of the various boroughs to be called in, the railway companies have held up their hands in horror and said, "No, we do not come under the Factories Acts." For two or three years the professional and technical staffs of the railway companies have been asking that recognition should be given to their claim for improved conditions and proper scales of salaries. But the railway companies haggled for a long time about whether they would recognise them at all, and, despite the fact that there were a substantial number in the unions, pressed us to give actual figures. If this industry is to prosper, it must be given a new life and a new will. It is now listless and dispirited, on account of the neglect it has experienced' during a number of years from both the private and the public point of view.
There are men in the industry who have great responsibilities. I refer to men like stationmasters, who give almost body, mind and soul to the industry. The housing accommodation provided for station-masters is iniquitous. If I am asked for proof, I would refer to the files of the railway companies and the files of the railway unions. But hon. Members need not accept my evidence. During the coming weekend let them inquire in their constituencies, and let them knock at the doors of the various offices and inquire

971
of the stationmasters about what is happening. Then they will discover that, instead of having an industry that is working satisfactorily and well, they have one which is entirely discouraged and dispirited, and which is pleading for a new spirit. The men of the Southern Railway assisted in the epic of Dunkirk by working 24, and in some cases 36, hours on end, to snatch our men from the jaws of the enemy. Since then, all recognition of what they have done has been forgotten. The men of the London Passenger, Transport Board are working 20 consecutive days out of 21, in order to keep going, despite the fact that there is staff which could be made available but which the Board now consider redundant.
I appreciate that you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and the House have been very patient with me, and I have introduced matters which relate primarily to one industry. But they have a tremendous bearing upon the future, of transport in this country. The failure to coordinate, and the failure to unify in the public interest, must be laid at the doors of the companies. The failure to give the country a satisfactory service must be attributed to their neglect in the years before the war, and to their concern for profit rather than for service. The discontent that now prevails is due- to the fear in the minds of the railwaymen that we shall have a private monopoly instead of an industry under public auspices, responsible to Parliament, where the leaders of it can be cross-examined and made to give an account of themselves. I urge the House to reject this Amendment, and to support the Government policy.
9.31p.m.
Mr. Martin Lindsay: The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) opened this Debate with an admirable exposition of the seriousness of the situation today, particularly when he spoke about the approaching crisis, and said we must either produce or perish. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council, on the other hand, in my opinion, was not only more moderate in tone than his speeches usually are, but, also, exceedingly moderate in content, and had very little, indeed, to do with the urgencies of the present moment. The right hon. Gentleman re-
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ferred to the forthcoming publicity campaign of the Minister of Fuel and Power. I, and some of my hon. Friends on these benches, ventured to laugh, and the right hon. Gentleman was very scornful and suggested that we had not the proper interests of this country at heart. But I ask the right hon. Gentleman this question: What earthly good is it to put up posters in a factory which cannot carry on full production because the Minister of Fuel and Power has not provided sufficient fuel for that purpose, and in which the workers have insufficient incentive to push forward, and are held back by restrictive customs? And yet there is the situation. These are the realities today and what we laughed at was that the right hon. Gentleman should take such an easy view of present conditions.
The situation with which this country is faced economically is very grim, indeed. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade has repeatedly told us that, taking the index of exports—volume—in 1938 as 100, we have to export to a figure of 175. This is a task of fantastic magnitude. Today, nearly 18 months after the war is over, the present figure is round about 100. It is obvious that, proceeding on our present lines, there is no earthly possibility of increasing our exports to the figure which is required. I see many hon. Members sitting on the benches opposite who represent industrial constituencies. I do not know how many of them are inclined to be optimistic about this production question, but I will remind them of one or two things. First, that British manufacturers are going to be faced with a very difficult situation in a year or two when our competitiors' industries have got into full stride. Secondly, we look like ending this year with 500,000 less workers than before the war, and with the raising of the school-leaving age no less than 390,000 boys and girls next year will be kept in school who would otherwise have entered productive industry. Thirdly, we have achieved our present figures of exports only by self-denial on the part of our people in respect of the goods they most urgently need. How long have our people to go without? Does anybody imagine that we can possibly not only almost double our present figures of exports, but also make up the lag in consumer goods, with a declining number of workers in this country? His

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Majesty's Government have already printed ration books for 1948, and it is not surprising. It is perfectly obvious that many other shortage controls will have to be continued for several years more. Fourthly, almost the only constructive provision of this Government—I refer to the exhortations for harder work, with which we on this side are all in agreement—has not been a tremendous success. So we see that with 50 per cent. more people in this country on export work today, production has only gone up by 17 per cent.
There are several causes of the present under-production. I will take only one of them and leave it to my hon. Friends to mention the others. Fuel and raw materials are scarce, largely due to lack of manpower where it is most urgently needed. In the coalfields today manpower is less than it has ever been before in the history of the industry. The result is that there is a shortage of steel, and also of timber since it is being burned in Scandinavia because we cannot export coal there. According to Mr. Horner, the miners' leader, there may be a million people in this country out of work this winter because of shortage of coal. Mr. Horner's own words on 27th October were:
"We say that the existing manpower cannot get the coal. Help must come from outside."
What are the Government doing to provide this help from outside? Or are they content to leave a million workers in this country under the threat of unemployment? There is no indication whatever in the King's Speech on this subject, and that is why we propose to vote for the Amendment. There are unlimited foreign workers available today. Why do not the Government make use of them? I wish to enforce strongly what the hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Amory) has said upon this subject. Is the Government so frightened of the prejudices of trade unionists that it is not prepared to use them? I suggest this Government should stop drifting, and start to govern, or get out. More workers are required in the coal mines, in iron foundries, and in the cotton spinning industry, those industries which the Under-Secretary of the Board of Trade referred to as the unpopular industries. But he went on to say that we had come to the end of our resources of manpower—
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a statement which is both misleading and untruthful while there are unlimited foreign workers anxious to be used, and quite accuston ed to austerity in a degree unknown in this country and therefore quite leady to accept accommodation which is suitable for gang labour, although it would not be suitable for the English workman and his family. What are the Government doing? All the Government are doing is exhorting the workers to work harder while it is not' providing the necessary raw material for that work to be carried out. Let me quote a few lines from a letter of a Birmingham industrialist:
"We require aluminium, tinplate, steel sheets and paint for our normal productions. Suppliers now require seven-eight months for delivery of aluminium, steel sheets cannot be obtained in the lighter gauges we require, and tin plates are unobtainable for our manufacturers, even for export."
I ask the Government, how can one expect a higher output under conditions like that? Do they not realise the sort of thing that goes on in a factory? What do the workers do? They go to the storekeeper and ask how much raw material there is. The storekeeper says, "Enough for two or three days." Who can blame the workers if they go back to the workshops and do very little work for the rest of the day when it seems likely that they will be out of work by the end of that week?
The Government must remove these obstacles to production. They must sharpen incentive. They must abolish restrictive practices wherever they are to be found, because it is abundantly clear that we cannot reach our export target, and maintain our present standard of living, going on as we are going. It is also abundantly clear that a planned economy is quite impossible unless the Government can place the labour in those industries where it is urgently needed and, as it is impossible to direct British labour in time of peace, that the Government have no alternative but to use foreigners.
I believe that the trend today is very critical. I believe that it is just as critical as it was in another way in 1940, when we were rapidly losing the Battle of the Atlantic. On that occasion Lord Hankey told the War Cabinet that we were going to be lost unless we could bring to bear some new reserve of power which had not hitherto been tapped. As a result, the Royal Air Force, from that moment, were

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thrown into the Battle of the Atlantic, and the situation was got under control. I believe that we are faced with a parallel situation today, and that we must use some new reserve of untapped power in order to deal with it. I believe that that reserve is foreign labour. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where from?"] From the U.N.R.R.A. camps in Germany, where there are 300,000 distressed persons, German prisoners of war in this country and Polish labour. I warn hon. Members opposite who sit for industrial areas—the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman), the hon. Member for West Coventry (Mr. Edelman), the hon. Member for Acock's Green (Mr. Usborne) and others—that it is these domestic issues concerned with production that matter most at the present time. If we are not careful, the next Election will be fought on the issue of the declining standard of living of the people, and it will avail hon. Members opposite nothing to say that they were very clever about foreign policy. A tidal wave will rise and sweep away the guilty men opposite, and they will never return.
9.42 p.m.
Mr. David Jones: I hope that the hon. Member for Solihull (Mr. M. Lindsay) will forgive me if I do not follow him in his somewhat ragged discourse on planning. I was interested when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) opened this Debate, because he and I have at least one thing in common. Prior to my election to this House I was connected with the railway company with which he is now connected, but unlike the right hon. Gentleman, a full-time substitute had to take my place when I became a Member of Parliament, as I was unable to continue my employment with the Great Western and represent a constituency as well. One would have thought, listening to the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon, that he was delivering his speech in 1919, because it was the same kind of speech which was being delivered at that time. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lichfield (Major Poole) earlier today quoted from a speech made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) in December, 1918. One has reason to believe from the facts, as they are known, that the Government of the
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day had made up their mind to nationalise the railways of this country. Not only did the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford make speeches of that kind, but I should like to read to the House an extract from a speech made by the then Prime Minister a fellow countryman of mine, the late Lloyd George. Speaking in the House of Commons in November, 1918, he said:
"There is the problem of transportation, left very largely to chance—rails, canals, roads and trams, all vital to the lives, the industry, the amenities of the people of this country. This problem must be taken in hand under the direction, inspiration, and control of the State."
The Trades Union Congress of that time made representations to the Government and, about them, "The Times" of 12th April, 1918, carried this report:
"The reply of the Prime Minister, Mr. Lloyd George, to the private deputation of the T.U.C. which met him on March 20th was "made public yesterday. Mr. Lloyd George referred to the nationalisation of the railways, and said he was in complete sympathy with the general character of the proposals. He agreed that the State would enable them to pay a lower interest on borrowed capital, to pay better wages to railway workers, and to provide better facilities for the public."
If one turns to the Report of the Select Committee, set up by the House of Commons in 1918, and presented in November of that year, one finds that they suggested unification by means of nationalisation, followed by the establishment of a Government Department to manage the railways or the constitution of a board of management, not directly represented in Parliament, or a leasing of the system to one or more of the commercial companies.
One would imagine' from listening to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley that the question of the nationalisation of transport was something new, that it had not been heard of before, that it was something to be found in the imagination of the Lord President of the Council, that it had not been considered. I have in my hand a whole series of quotations, not from politicians alone, but from industrialists of all types, who have dealt with this question of nationalisation during the inter-war period. I agree with those who have said today that production is important. I suggest that one of the most substantial contributions that can be made to increased production is

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the establishment of a highly efficient transport system. The late Lloyd George once described coal as the lifeblood of this nation. We realise now that that is absolutely true. If it is true then I submit that the transport of this country provides the arteries through which the lifeblood passes to all parts of the economic body. In 1921, Parliament passed the Railways Act, which brought the railways into four groups. I would like to quote, from the "Financier" of 23rd November, 1922, what Sir Henry Thornton said on board the "Olympic" as he left for New York to become the general manager of the Canadian State railways. He said:
"The only alternative, if the railway grouping system is not successful, is nationalisation. You cannot unscramble eggs when they are scrambled but, in this case, there is the remedy of nationalisation."
I suggest that the Railways Act of 1921 has failed to yield what its promoters hoped it would yield. The railway companies themselves, by 1932, had demonstrated the weaknesses of that Act because, in that year, the London Midland and Scottish and the London and North-Eastern Railway Companies themselves entered into a pooling arrangement in an attempt to provide a new economy.
It failed because it failed to give decent conditions to the railway men of this country. In 1930, there was a demand for the railway companies to reduce the wages of the railway workers because the grouping system was not proving a success. Next year, they submitted a further demand, which ultimately went to a tribunal, and some members of that tribunal, which rejected the railway companies' demand, in their findings intimated that the only way in which the railway workers could be guaranteed decent conditions was by nationalisation.
This afternoon, the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken), interrupting the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield, made reference to the tributes that had been paid to the railwaymen of this country for their work during the war. It is fashionable in some quarters to make reference to what the railways did during the war. I suggest to the House that the success of the railway movement of traffic during the war was in the main due to the energy of the 600,000 railway-men represented in the three railway trade unions. The Royal Commission of
978
1931, set up by Parliament, reached these remarkable conclusions:
"It appears to us that without unification—however it may be accomplished—no attempt to bring about complete coordination would be successful."
Later in the Report they stated:
"We are all impressed with the immense importance of internal transport as the handmaiden of British industry, and we are all agreed that this can best be done by the adoption either of nationalisation or, alternatively, by the formation of a National Transport Trust."
Three members of the Commission, in an appendix to that Report, developed the matter still further, and stated:
"Competition is not a possible solution and is incompatible with coordination. Coordination can only be obtained by unification. Unification through the preponderance of one form of traffic over another, in a given area, is not desirable, and would not have the support of public opinion; consequently, unification, which is desirable in the public interest, could only be brought about through some form of public control or ownership. Public ownership combined with commercial management should operate through a statutory corporation, free from all political and governmental interference. It should manage the coordinated transport facilities in the interest of national industry and trade. In other words, it should operate for service rather than profit."
I suggest to the House that a case has been made out completely by the speeches delivered by hon. Members opposite this afternoon, that if we are to achieve that higher production which is to raise the standard of living of the people of this country, it can only be done through unifying all forms of inland transport under public ownership and control.
9.54 pm.
Mr. Skeffington: In the few moments that remain, I shall have to exercise, as quickly as I can, my powers of selection, and comment on only one or two of the points which I wished to make. I may say personally that, so far as I understand the Amendment of the Opposition, I am very pleased with it, because it seems to me that the Amendment which we are discussing is a complete denial of the usual Opposition line, that the Government has failed to carry out the detailed programme which it put before the electors. I well remember the speeches which were made on the Address last year, when there was the very easy assumption that what appeared in "Let Us Face The Future" was an election

979
statement without any serious intent behind it.
I remember hearing the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) talking in those easy terms. Then my mind jumps to 19th November, 1945, when the Lord President of the Council made his detailed statement on the industries which were to pass into public ownership, and I remember noticing, on the benches opposite, real consternation on many faces because here, at last, was a Government with power which was speedily going to carry out its Election pledges. I remember how the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton)—I am sure that if he were here he would not mind the words I am about to use, because they are at least a tribute to his physical nature—charging in like a rather intemperate bull. He and his supporters did not like the fact that the Government was going to carry out its pledges. I can imagine also what the Opposition would have said if, in the Gracious Speech this year, the Government had failed to refer to certain of the industries which we hope within the next year will be passed into public ownership. They would have talked about our running away from our pledges, and they would have "hotted up" this attack outside the House.
One further point that I want to make on the Amendment is this. I quite understand, and I quite believe, that there are many hon. Gentlemen opposite who are perfectly sincere in their desire to see that our production is maintained and increased. We can quarrel about the method by which this is to be achieved, but I find it difficult to reconcile their attitude, and the attitude also expressed by the right hon. Gentleman who is the greatest attribute which the Opposition have at the present time, the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), who said that the Opposition associated themselves in the production drive—and the attitudes—and individual activities of many of our opponents, particularly outside the House. Week by week, in my Division, one reads in the local Press letters—the intellectual content of which is not particularly praiseworthy—from officials of the local Conservative organisation, and every one of those letters exploits the difficulties which any Government would have had
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to face on the conclusion of a great world war. Although I do not think these letters are particularly dangerous to me, personally, or to those whom I represent, I' find it difficult to associate action of that sort—in which the comment by a Conservative speaker on the world food shortage is "dried eggs have dried up"—with the kind of sentiments about national wellbeing which are expressed by the Opposition today.
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) may be able to say something about a leaflet distributed outside an exhibition of which, I imagine, we are all proud, the "Britain Can Make It" Exhibition. It is a Conservative leaflet, although the fact that it is published by the Conservative and Unionist Central Office, 24, Old Queen Street, is put on it in very small letters at the back. As people come out of the exhibition, they are given a statement entitled "One Year of Power," by George Murray, which is a complete distortion of the facts. The House will judge the contents of this sort of document when I say it is reprinted by permission of the "Daily Mail." It is really difficult to reconcile that kind of thing—the exaggeration of world and internal difficulties—with the pious expressions which have been made about production here.
The other point I would like to make is in reference to that section of production which will not pass into public ownership. It is an extraordinary feature of the British industrial system, as it has grown up, that there is in most instances no representation of the consumers' interest at the policy making stage. Except to some extent in the Cooperative Movement, and in some of the ad hoc bodies which the Government have set up, there is no real representation of the consumer or the user. I am hoping that in the work which the Board of Trade are doing it will be possible to get into many of our industries consumer representation at an early stage in policy making. If that is done, we may be able to see that the consumers' interest is represented, not when the article is finished but before, so that we may get a better standard in the production of good quality goods.
9.59 p.m.
Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: We have had an interesting Debate and I doubt whether, in the short time that

981
remains to me this evening, I shall be able to deal very adequately even with the extremely interesting speech which has just been addressed to the House. The hon. Member for West Lewisham (Mr. Skeffington) is, I believe, a lecturer, but I imagine that he can never have been called upon to deliver in so short a time a lecture upon such a very important subject as has been the case this evening. I would say for the hon. Member's speech that it was about production, which was vastly to his credit—
It being Ten o'Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.
Debate to be resumed Tomorrow.

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
Mr. Benson, Mr. Cuthbert, Mr. Ernest Davies, Lieut.-Colonel Alan Dower, Mr. Glenvil Hall, Lieut.-Colonel Hamilton, Mr. Haworth, Mr. Horace Holmes, Mr. Kirby, Mr. Lever, Sir John Mellor, Mr. Peake, Sir Frank Sanderson, Mr. Thurtle and Mr. Wadsworth to be Members of the Committee of Public Accounts.—[Mr. R. J. Taylor.]

PUBLICATIONS AND DEBATES REPORTS
Select Committee appointed to assist Mr. Speaker in arrangements for the reporting and publishing of Debates and in regard to the form and distribution of the Notice Papers issued in connection with the Business of the House; and to inquire into the expenditure on stationery and printing for the House and the public services generally:
Mr. Cluse, Mr. Driberg, Mr. John Foster, Mr. Wilson Harris, Captain Mars-den, Mr. Messer, Mr. Naylor, Mr. Stamford, Mr. Thornton-Kemsley, Mr. Walker and Mr. Wilkins to be Members of the Committee:
Power to send for persons, papers and records and to report from time to time:
Three to be the Quorum.—[Mr. R. J. Taylor.]

SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS
Resolved:
"That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending
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Section I of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Newbury, a copy of which Order was presented on 18th November, be approved."
Resolved:
"That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Baldock, a copy of which Order was presented on 18th November, be approved."
Resolved:
"That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Exmouth, a copy of which Order was presented on 18th November, be approved."—[Mr. Oliver.]

DEAF PERSONS (WELFARE)
Motion made, and Question propdsed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Michael Stewart.]
10.2 p.m.
Mr. Edward Evans: I am grateful for this opportunity of bringing to the attention of the House the needs of those born deaf. the deafened, and those suffering from impairment of hearing known as the partially deaf, or hard of hearing. I do so not only because of my long professional association with this group of disabled persons, but because I feel that no section of the community suffers more from a lack of understanding, of sympathy, and of administrative assistance, nor are so completely isolated from the rest of the community as those unfortunate people who suffer from impairment of hearing. Yet their potentiality in the economic life of the community is considerable. It has been calculated that about 16 per cent., or roughly one-sixth, of the population of this country suffer from some defect or diminution in hearing capacity. Unfortunately, the time at my disposal will not allow me to elaborate very broadly on their needs, but I should like to bring to the attention of the House the requirements of these afflicted people and suggest some of the means by which their disabilities may be alleviated. These concern many Departments—the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Labour, the Ministry of Health, and if time permitted I could bring in the Ministry of Pensions also and, of course, finance.
Deafness imposes a greater educational and social handicap than any form of disability in otherwise healthy persons. A

983
child born deaf has to learn, by highly specialised instruction, not only how to speak, which is but a means of expressing language, but how to acquire language itself by a laborious and lengthy process, and seldom, except in a relatively small number of cases, does he attain the fluency of a normally hearing person. The basis of deaf education is to secure linguistic ability. It is, therefore, of the greatest importance that the deaf child should receive, as early as possible, the benefits of special education, but there is at the moment a tragic dearth of nursery accommodation, and places for infants, and 1 urge as forcibly as I can the need for this provision. Nearly all deaf schools are woefully understaffed with trained teachers, and I recommend to the attention of the Minister of Education the need for encouraging ex-Service personnel taking up the Emergency Training Scheme to enter for the course on deaf education at Manchester University, and that the Minister should recognise the one year course there as absolving from the additional year at a training college. This. of course, I recommend only as a temporary expedient in view of the highly technical character of deaf education. There is also a very grave shortage in the residential schools of domestic workers and children's nurses and attendants.
There is only one secondary grammar school available, quite incapable of dealing with the demand for places, inadequately financed, and lacking representative control. There is also an urgent need for a first-class technical school where a considerable development from the traditional trades could be undertaken. For generations past they have been confined to these traditional trades, boot making, tailoring, baking, dressmaking and so on, but their capacity is much beyond that and provision should be made for them to develop into the widest fields of industry, art, and commerce. I am convinced that there are in the normal schools a large number of children classed as dull, backward, and mentally retarded, who suffer from deafness in some form and who, if given appropriate training, would develop educationally. This suggests that these children should be ascertained as early as possible by the use in every school of the gramophone audiometer for preliminary group testing. May I call the attention of hon. Members to
984
the film which will be exhibited tomorrow night in the cinema and which will give a very good account of the technical training of the deaf?
I would like to emphasise at this point the anxiety of all of us associated with deaf welfare in regard to the certification as mental defectives of deaf persons. Most, indeed all, pyschological tests depend upon linguistic response utterly beyond the capacity of the totally deaf. We feel strongly that no deaf person should be certified unless a trained teacher of the deaf or welfare worker is present at the examination and taken into full consultation. I can assure the House that my own experiences over a great many years of deaf education have been most disquieting and have left me very anxious on this subject.
I want to refer now to an aspect of deaf welfare which will require the most careful consideration, and that is their placement in industry. I feel that to leave the placement of the deaf to the Minister of Labour without specialist assistance is to invite disaster. Placement for the deaf is not merely finding jobs, but requires constant supervision in order that recurrent difficulties should be resolved, not only vis-à-vis the employer but, alas, too often between the deaf workman and his fellow workers. Most of those difficulties have been misunderstandings, due to the problem of communication by language. This work should be delegated to the deaf welfare societies, and generous grants provided for the purpose. This would more than repay the cost in the long run. On local committees, under the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act, a specialist in deaf welfare should be appointed or co-opted. The Minister of Health has powers to pay for placement services under the Employment Exchanges Act, 1909, and I trust that he will exercise his powers generously and sympathetically.
With regard to deaf welfare generally, Circular 1337 of the Ministry of Health empowers local authorities to make grants for this purpose, but the exercise of these powers has been niggardly and sporadic. I can recall in my experience when we established the Eastern Counties Association for the Deaf. It died in a few years for lack of support by the local authorities. The deaf welfare societies do an enormous amount of good in providing, through their missions, for the spiritual

985
and social welfare of the deaf, but there is a grave lack of suitably trained officers, and a tragic dearth of funds. The Government have powers to help. I trust that the Minister, with his well-known sympathy for the afflicted people, will do all in his power, and that if his powers are insufficient he will seek new ones, in order to effect an extension in this field. In this connection, I wonder whether the Minister would consider the setting up of an advisory committee on the welfare of the deaf, analagous to the body set up for the blind. Such a gesture would be warmly welcomed by those who work among the deaf, and by the deaf themselves.
I turn now to the hard of hearing, who form the larger section of those whom we are now considering. Unfortunately, the position in regard to them has been put entirely out of focus by the emphasis placed on hearing aids as a means of alleviation. It cannot be too strongly stressed that the provision of hearing aids touches but the fringe of the problem. A very large percentage of those suffering from deafness cannot possibly benefit from electrical aids, although quite a large number can. Indeed, good results can be obtained -from the use of other mechanical means such as trumpets, and so on. Nor can the operation for otosclerosis, known as fenestration, benefit very many of those suffering from deafness. It is wrong to suggest, because of success in a few cases, that there is going to be universal benefit. The deaf are deluded and disappointed by such an attitude.
Above all, while I am discussing aural aids, may I say that it is important to get the right type? This can only be done by consultation with qualified otologists and by purchase from a reliable firm whose ethical standards of sale have been approved by the National Institute for the Deaf. Many of the firms supplying these instruments in the past have done valuable work. Their standards are high, their research investigations worthy of the highest praise and they do not exploit their customers. It is highly unfair that they should receive the odium merited by the more disreputable elements in the business.
It is all nonsense to suggest that the Americans produce a better instrument than our own best. I have compared
986
many samples and I can assert that the British product is quite as good, and is better in most cases, as well as being cheaper, than the American instrument in the same category. The Americans are doing their best to capture the Dominion markets. I hope that our people will be given every encouragement to continue developments and to maintain and increase their overseas connections.
I am glad to see that the Government propose to put a machine on the market which, I hope, will be provided free, or at a nominal cost. I urge very strongly that they will set up, under the National Health Service Act, a number of easily accessible testing clinics and maintenance centres. To issue the machines without controlling their distribution would be worthless, and would be rather like going into a store, buying a bundle of spectacles and issuing them out to shortsighted people. The cost of batteries deters many who could benefit from the use of aids, and the free provision of them in necessitous cases should be considered; but, as I have said, provision of aural aids is but part of the problem.
Probably the greatest help the deaf and hard of hearing can derive is from competent lip reading. Both the Minister of Health and the Minister of Education should give the greatest encouragement and assistance to deaf and hard of hearing societies to maintain clubs not only for social intercourse but for the teaching and practice of lip reading. These societies are increasing in number, especially those for the hard of hearing. They have a heavy up-hill struggle to get going, their power for good is tremendous, and they require the good will of authority in high places. The difficulty of lip reading is little understood by the general public. If it were better understood, they would make much greater efforts to speak slowly and clearly when trying to converse with deaf people, would not speak with a cigarette in their mouth or behind their hands or stand in the shadow, and expect deaf people to follow their lips.
I must mention one special class of deaf person, those who are deaf and blind, a class in which I have had a very special interest for a very long time. We have all heard of the wonderful attainments of that remarkable lady, Dr. Helen Keller. It is not generally known that

987
there are in this country many people who suffer from this terrible dual affliction. Some are gainfully and happily employed, others take part in social activities, and most of them are intelligent decent people. It was particularly disquieting to hear of a judge at Southend not long ago suggesting that all that could be done for them is to see that their material needs are met—bread and butter and a bed. Their spiritual, intellectual and social needs must be met and their human relationships fostered. The last place for this is in a large institution where they would be put in a corner and left to sleep and where no one would be able to converse with them by the special deaf manual alphabet which is available. There are a number of excellent special homes run by the National Institute for the Blind but they do not meet anything like the need, and the need for more is urgent.
I would like to say a word about prevention and research. One of the most disturbing elements in the incidence of juvenile deafness is that following meningitis and diseases such as measles and diphtheria. I would like to see the Minister of Health set up in his own Department a virile programme of otological research not only into the causes of deafness in children but into those more associated with the stress of modem life industrial conditions and the onset of old age, There is need, too, for the Minister to encourage by financial assistance research into certain technical developments; the evaluation of hearing aid instruments; and the standardisation of testing equipment, particularly audiometers. He should be able to make grants to bodies conducting research. In this way only can administrative effort march step by step with acquired knowledge through research in all its forms. I could continue on this theme for much longer but I trust that not only will the matters I have raised interest the Minister present tonight, but that by some means other Departments concerned with the welfare of this afflicted section of our community will have their attention directed to this problem and take the necessary action.
10.19 p.m.
Mr. Gilzean: I am glad to have had the opportunity of listening to that clarifying speech by the
988
hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. E. Evans) on a question which, I am afraid, is of little interest to the majority of people. I am more concerned about the hard of hearing, because I recognise that there is a general sympathy (for the deaf person throughout the community, but the problem of the person who is hard of hearing has never yet been appreciated and understood. It is more than 17 years since the Education Act was first passed, and during that time tens of thousands of children who are hard of hearing must have passed through our schools and been written down as of a low mental quotient simply because of this disability. Consequently, anything that is likely to help cure that position is to be welcomed by everyone in this House.
In the City of Edinburgh, to which I belong and about which I know most, there is under the aegis of the Education Committee a school specially established for the hard of hearing, and I am glad to say that it has been of inestimable benefit. The point to remember is that you can only get at the child through his hearing, and if there is any hearing at all you can immensely improve the knowledge and the understanding of that child. I would like to stress the fact that all over the country there are education committees, many of them of great importance—that is, judged by the number of children they have to handle—which have not yet made any provision of any kind for the hard of hearing. Consequently I think the Minister ought to direct his attention to the need for the establishment of schools specifically brought into being for the purpose of dealing with this particular class of the community. As I have already said, they are put down as being of low mental quality for no other reason than that although they cannot be described as being absolutely deaf, nevertheless they go from class to class always being looked upon as of low mentality, when actually the position is altogether different. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will seek to do something to alter this position.
10.22 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Key): This House always listens with pleasure to an expert on a subject, and I am sure that we listened with great interest to what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. E. Evans), who introduced

989
this subject, for he has had many years' experience in the matter, and his original work has had an effect upon the treatment of the deaf-blind throughout the country. As he mentioned in his speech, a number of Departments are concerned with this problem, and I can only now assure him that the points he raised which affect other Departments will be brought definitely to their attention. So far as the educational side is concerned, there are a goodly number of schools—some 44 already in existence—in the country for the purpose of dealing with deaf children. In recent years there has been a growing appreciation of the problem, and changes have been made with regard to the minimum age at which children shall be sent compulsorily to school who suffer from deafness. We all recognise that during the period of the war there has grown up a scarcity of the necessary qualified teachers for doing this work, but I can assure him that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education is pressing upon local authorities the need for making special provision for these children, and that conferences are being held in many areas to consider the provision of additional schools and the extension of existing schools for that purpose.
With regard to the point in relation to the Ministry of Labour on the placement of the deaf in employment, the suggestion he made of the appointment of specialists in deaf welfare to local committees appointed under the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act, will be brought to the notice of the Minister of Labour, whose Department is already attempting to extend the cooperation with the Employment Exchanges of local deaf societies, and the appointment also of specialist officers is under consideration in that connection.
At the Ministry of Health we fully recognise that in the past this problem of deafness has been what one might call the Cinderella of the health services. Among other things, provision for the proper testing of hearing and for the supply and maintenance of hearing aids has been greatly neglected. In the Debates we had on the National Health Service Act, it was pointed out that that Act will provide the opportunity for rectifying the many omissions that have been made. It must not be assumed from the fact that so much publicity has been given to the question of hearing aids, and to the
990
Government's intention to provide and maintain them free of cost under the National Health Service scheme, that the Government believe that the hearing aid is the beginning and end of this problem. The aid of which mention has been made results from researches which have been made by the Electro-Acoustics Committee of the Medical Research Council. That Committee, I want to emphasise, is only one of three committees of the Medical Research Council which were set up in 1944 at the request of the Departments concerned in this problem. Two other committees are at work, one on the medical and surgical considerations for diagnosis and treatment of deafness, and the other considering the problem of education of deaf children and adults.
The Government fully recognise that, important as hearing aids are, far more important are such matters as the treatment of infectious diseases in childhood, and prompt attention to particular diseases in connection with the prevention, as far as possible, of this complaint. Therefore, in the framing of the comprehensive measures for the prevention, diagnosis, and treatment of deafness as part of the National Health Service, which we are now in course of preparing,' the Minister will be armed with the authoritative recommendations of these three expert committees. There is not likely to be any difficulty, I think, in persuading the Medical Research Council to undertake further research. At the same time, I would point out that by Section 16 of the National Health Service Act, the Minister himself has power to conduct or to assist by grants
"research into any matters relating to the causation, prevention, diagnosis, or treatment of illness or mental defectiveness."
And the question of deafness will be included in that provision. I can assure the House that we shall take full advantage of those new powers to see that such investigation is made.
I am not trying to suggest that it will be possible to build up the necessarily complex organisation for the effective care of the deafened, and to have it operating everywhere, by the date that the National Health Service Act comes into operation. But deafness clinics, under the charge of specialists and equipped for the exact—and, it is to be hoped, for the early—diagnosis of deafness, as well as for the effective

991
treatment of the deafening diseases, will be developed as part of the hospital and specialist services as quickly as the resources available will allow us. Up to date and effective means of testing deafness, and of fitting the individual patient with the kind of aid which will benefit him, will not be overlooked, nor will the value of lip reading, vocational guidance, and other welfare work be forgotten. Arrangements for the large-scale production of the hearing aid, of which mention has been made, and which are now being worked out with the Ministry of Supply, will take into account all the requirements of audiometers, including gramophone audiometers for schools, and group hearing aids for schools, and of other equipment that is necessary.
The Government's plans, of course, are still in the formative stage, and it would be very premature for me to attempt to be more precise in these matters than I have been able to be tonight. My hon. Friend's suggestion that an advisory committee on the welfare of the deaf, analogous to the one which at present exists for the consideration of the welfare of the blind, should be set up, will certainly be given very careful consideration when the time seems ripe for it to be put into operation. Of his other points, I think
992
it may be fairly said that they are being kept fully in mind. The kind of service which he desires will, when the Government's comprehensive social security scheme has been fully implemented, be built up. Though it cannot be built up in a day, there will be no avoidable delay. 'We shall use every opportunity there is to bring this into existence as one of the important services in connection with our hospital and specialist services, because, as I said, we have regarded it as one of the services which so far have been very sadly neglected indeed. I am certain that in bringing this matter before us, today, my hon. Friend has continued that great social service to which he has given a great part of his life, and I can assure him that we appreciate what he has said. The points he has made I will make it my business to bring to the attention not only of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, but also to the attention of other. Ministers concerned, and my hon. Friend will have added to the other services he has given by making more certain the development of this service in our new scheme.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine minutes to Eleven o'Clock.

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AFRICAN COLONIES
  Labour Recruitment (Northern Rhodesia)
  Labour Recruitment (Northern Rhodesia)
  West Africa (Furniture Exports)
  West Africa (Furniture Exports)
  Northern Rhodesia (Ministers Visits)
  Northern Rhodesia (Ministers Visits)
  West African Cocoa (White Paper)
  West African Cocoa (White Paper)
WEST INDIES
  Promotions Boards (Representation)
  Promotions Boards (Representation)
  Trinidad (Government Employees, Housing Loans)
  Trinidad (Government Employees, Housing Loans)
  Government Services
  Government Services
  CEYLON (TEA TAX)
  CEYLON (TEA TAX)
  PALESTINE (ARAB YOUTH ORGANISATIONS)
  PALESTINE (ARAB YOUTH ORGANISATIONS)
  HONG KONG (BRITISH PRISONER)
  HONG KONG (BRITISH PRISONER)
  NORTH BORNEO (STATE BANK)
  NORTH BORNEO (STATE BANK)
  GIBRALTAR (SPANISH REFUGEES)
  GIBRALTAR (SPANISH REFUGEES)
ROYAL NAVY
  Rosyth
  Rosyth
  Hong Kong (Letter Deliveries)
  Hong Kong (Letter Deliveries)
  Postwar Casualties
  Postwar Casualties
  Personal Cases
  Personal Cases
  Yacht "Cortynia" (Sale)
  Yacht "Cortynia" (Sale)
  Air Station, Culdrose (Boundary)
  Air Station, Culdrose (Boundary)
  Oversea Service (Married Quarters)
  Oversea Service (Married Quarters)
  Mined Destroyers, Corfu
  Mined Destroyers, Corfu
  Rafts, Fortrose (Dismantling)
  Rafts, Fortrose (Dismantling)
  NIGERIAN GOATSKINS (PRICE)
  NIGERIAN GOATSKINS (PRICE)
  OLD AGE PENSIONS
  OLD AGE PENSIONS
  ILLEGAL JEWISH IMMIGRATION (SHIPS' NAMES)
  ILLEGAL JEWISH IMMIGRATION (SHIPS' NAMES)
  CENTRAL OFFICE OF INFORMATION (LECTURES)
  CENTRAL OFFICE OF INFORMATION (LECTURES)
RAILWAYS
  Wagons
  Wagons
  London—Cambridge Service
  London—Cambridge Service
  CHANNEL ISLANDS (ALLEGATIONS)
  CHANNEL ISLANDS (ALLEGATIONS)
  EDUCATION (STATISTICS)
  EDUCATION (STATISTICS)
AGRICULTURE
  Marketing Acts (Review)
  Marketing Acts (Review)
  Mutton Price
  Mutton Price
  Inoculation, Cheshire
  Inoculation, Cheshire
  BUILDING WORKERS
  BUILDING WORKERS
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

  THE ADDRESS: MESSAGE FROM THE KING.
  THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, I have a Message from the King, signed with his own hand. His Majesty's Message is as follows:
  "I have received with great satisfaction the loyal and dutiful expression of your thanks for the Speech with which I have opened the present Session of Parliament."

  SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932 (BOROUGH OF NEWBURY ORDER).
  LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, I beg to move that this Order be approved.
  Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section 1 of that Act to the Borough of Newbury, and laid before the House yesterday, be approved—(Lord Walkden.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932 (URBAN DISTRICT OF BALDOCK ORDER).
  LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, I beg to move that this Order be approved.
  Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section 1 of that Act to the Urban District of Baldock, and laid before the House yesterday, be approved.—(Lord Walkden.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932 (URBAN DISTRICT OF EXMOUTH ORDER).
  LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, I beg to move that this Order be approved.
  Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section 1 of that Act to the Urban District of Exmouth, and laid before the House yesterday, be approved.—(Lord Walkden.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  HOUSING.
  2.38 p.m.
  LORD LLEWELLIN LORD LLEWELLIN rose to call attention to the housing situation, and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I do not anticipate that any of your Lordships will think it a waste of time to spend an afternoon taking stock of the housing situation. The last time we did this, in general, in this House, was, I believe, in March of this year, and I think that the time has come when we might well do it again and hear what reports the Government have to make to us upon the matter. I cannot help feeling that no one in his heart of hearts is really satisfied with the present housing situation. We do not see housing queues but if all the people who are on all the lists of all the local authorities for houses were to be formed up in line there would be such a long queue that it would really appal the conscience of the country.
  I remember well a story about a popular Army leader of the last war, General Sir Aylmer Hunter-Weston, one of our Corps Commanders. When his Corps was on the Belgian coast he once went to visit a sentry stationed on the shore. He asked the man what he was, and the man told him his name. The General said: "I do not mean that. You are more than that. You are the left-hand man of the left-hand Battalion of the left-hand Division of the left-hand Corps of the left-hand Army of the British Expeditionary Force. What is more, if Sir Douglas Haig, the Commander-in-Chief, were to give the order 'Left form' to the whole of the British Armies, you know what you would be doing: you would be marking time here for six months until the Armies came round "There will be a lot of people in

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  these housing queues who will be marking time, I am afraid, for much more than six months unless we get things going very much faster than they are now moving.
  I saw in The Times this morning that one member of the London County Council has said that if the present rate of house building in the London County Council area did not increase considerably the waiting list for houses would not be cleared for a quarter of a century. When one realizes that many of the people who are waiting are people who lost their homes by enemy action, that many of them are men who served—it may have been in the desert or Burma or Italy or France or elsewhere—and who, now that they have come back, have a real claim, as good a claim as anyone ever had, to settle down in homes of their own; when one realizes, too, that in this category are men who gave up the homes they had in order to go out and fight and then had their homes requisitioned by the local authority or some Department in their absence, and still cannot get back into them, then one appreciates the wide repercussions of this problem and the urgent need to move as fast as we can to see that it is solved more rapidly.
  In the main, to-day, I want to deal with permanent houses, but before coming to that aspect, I will, if I may, say a word or two on the situation as regards temporary housing. These houses are a very necessary stop-gap, but I must say, as I have said before in this House, that I hate the look of them, and I fear that many of them will remain in existence far too long. Yet they do provide homes. The fittings in them are good, largely, I think (if I may say so), owing to the arrangement made by my noble friend Lord Portal, when he was Minister of Works. In fact, speaking generally, but for the arrangements made by the Coalition Government of all Parties we should probably not have had any of these houses, or anything like so many of them, as we have at the present time. As it is, the programme that was then laid down has gone much more slowly towards its fulfilment than had been planned.
  The plan was to have 150,000 houses completed within two years of the defeat of Germany. That period takes us to May 7 next year. I do not think that the October returns are yet out, but up to
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  the end of September only 57,000 houses had been completed. There are only seven months to go, and only two-thirds of the programme has been achieved. And, my Lords, the seven months to go, from October to April, are bad building months—not so bad for temporary houses as for houses that need brick-laying; but at any rate they are not the best building months. So I would like to ask the Government, what is the delay, and how is it that the programme planned has fallen so much behind what was anticipated? I have read most carefully the Minister of Health's recent speech in another place on housing. It was a good debating House of Commons performance, but, if I may say so, there was really not very much more to it than that. You could not gather from that speech what were the real reasons behind the failure—or the comparative failure—of this programme which we are discussing to-day. I think we ought to be told, the country ought to be told, the large number of people waiting for homes ought to be told, what are the reasons for delay. We should be taken fully into the confidence of the Government.
  I come now to the permanent houses. After all, they are the houses which, by general agreement, we want to see built in the greatest possible numbers, not only to make up for those actually destroyed during the war, but to make up for the lag in house-building that inevitably took place when everybody was called up for other, and at that time more urgent, matters. In the Coalition White Paper, issued in March, 1945, not: long before the break-up of that Government, the plan was to erect 220,000 new permanent houses within two years of the defeat of Germany; that is to say, by May 7, 1947. That was a Coalition estimate, As your Lordships will recall, that estimate was mocked at as being totally inadequate by a large number of candidates speaking on Government platforms, during the course of the Election. Yet when one looks at the performance, how dreadfully inadequate it is, compared not only with those promises—if they were promises—made on election platforms, but also with the actual plan which had been said to be too small.
  If we look at the figures for recent months, we find that in June only 3,500 houses were completed. In July, the figure was 5,100, and in August, 4,900. In September, I am glad to say, it was

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  up a bit—though not to a great extent—reaching 7,018. Those are the figures for the country as a whole. Thus, in the whole of Great Britain, only about 28,000 permanent houses have been completed in the last seventeen months. That is less than one-seventh of that programme of 220,000 houses. At the present moment it seems to me—I shall be glad to be told that I am wrong—that there is no hope whatever of getting the remaining six-sevenths completed in the seven months between now and May 7 next. We ought to be told why a carefully-worked-out programme is not going to be attained. Although it was said to be too small, was it, in fact, too large? That is one question that I should like to ask the Government. Or is it that materials, generally, are in short supply? I cannot quite understand the position with regard to materials. Speaking in another place, the Minister of Health gave some very satisfactory figures about the materials produced during the month of September, to which he was addressing his remarks. But when one comes to ask anybody engaged in the building industry, one finds that they all say that they are held up because of the lack of one material or another. I think it will be found that that is generally so with any builder, small or great, that you care to ask. No doubt, the figures that the Minister of Health gave are quite correct. If so, something has gone wrong with the distribution.
  I would ask your Lordships to consider for a moment just what is happening with regard to houses at the present time. In the pre-war years it was reckoned that the time taken to build a house from the foundations to completion was from ten to twelve weeks. I understand that it is now taking from nine to twelve months to build a house. I am told that the main reason is delay in getting the materials. If there is delay with regard to some of the materials which one needs for the construction of the top part of a house, it may mean that the scaffolding for that house has to be taken down and transferred to the next house in order that that house can be completed to a certain height. No doubt I shall be corrected if I am wrong, but I am told that the material which is in shorter supply than any other at the present moment is timber, with regard to which I said something in your Lordships' House last
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  March. I have been in touch with one firm engaged in several contracts for local authorities. I am told that they have applied to no less than fifty-eight different timber merchants for ordinary floor and carcassing timber. Every one of those fifty-eight merchants—and there have been more inquiries outside—have said that they have got no timber available. What happens is that a house is built up as far as the first floor, and then it is found that there is no wood to make the floor and no beams to take the tiles. Perhaps that is quite largely the reason why we see in the returns so many houses which have been started but have not yet been completed.
  I presume that the Baltic is now closed for any substantial timber shipments. I believe that we are getting some from Canada and the United States. I should like to know whether we are, in fact, getting it from those countries and, if so, whether we are getting it in any substantial quantity. But I would again ask the Government: How much are we getting, or have we got, from Germany? I have been privileged on two occasions to go to that country. When one looks at the extent of the woodlands still standing in Germany one realizes that they have not had anything like the amount of cutting—I should think about one-tenth—that we have had in this country. I think that this is an extremely important question. When we are paying out of our Exchequer such very large sums of money to buy food from abroad, in order to feed the German people, we ought, at least, to get in return this essential commodity so necessary for our housing programme. I should like to ask His Majesty's Government how much timber we have obtained from Germany. It may be given in standards or tons or in any other measure.
  I think the Government ought to tell our Control Commission that they have to take steps in this direction, to see that a considerable proportion of the prisoners of war whom we still have over there are put on to the job of cutting this timber, so that it may be shipped back to this country where it is so much needed. It rather horrifies me to find that because of the shortage of timber, the Ministry of Health has had to reduce the amount of standards allowed for the ordinary permanent house from 2

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  standards to 1.6 standards. The result is that in the houses which we are building to-day we have got to put in floors of concrete or something like that rather than the timber floors which we usually expect to find in our houses and which are far more convenient for the housewife than concrete floors. We must try by every available means to get this timber. I suggest that there is plenty of timber in Germany and when we consider the amount of money which we are paying in order to feed the Germans, we ought at least to insist on getting adequate supplies of timber, so that our houses may be built much more quickly than they are being built and, as soon as possible, we may have wooden floors and not the floors of concrete or other material now being put into the houses. One of the reasons why there has been this housing set-back is that a number of local authorities have sent out their specifications for the full standards of timber originally approved by the Ministry of Health and now the whole thing has to be altered because the amount has been cut down. In consequence a house, or part of it, has to be re-planned; and indeed in some cases houses will not be built at all.
  With regard to bricks, I am glad to think that the situation is very much better than it was when we discussed this matter in your Lordships' House in March of this year. However, I am told that that improvement does not apply to facing bricks, which are still extremely difficult to obtain. I should like to know if anything is being done with regard to those bricks. If there is sufficient production, is anything being done to have the distribution rectified?
  Another thing that constitutes a bottleneck at the present moment—perhaps that is the wrong word; I do not know—is dampcourse slates. We used to be able to provide in this country, mostly from North Wales, all the dampcourse slates that were needed. I am told now that we are having to get some from Portugal. There was an inquiry set up by the Rees Committee into the Welsh slate industry. I am told the Committee completed its work on October 22. I should like to ask his Majesty's Government what has happened to the Report of that Committee, whether it is going to be published and when we know what its recommendations are, what the position is with regard to getting slates once more in ample supply
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  from that great Welsh slate industry. The other things which I am told are in short supply at the moment are wall ties. No iron strip has been rolled for this purpose, and the galvanized wire, which is an alternative, not so good, will not be accepted by local authorities, on the instructions perhaps—although I do not know—of the Ministry of Health. But, at any rate, something must be done to get proper wall ties if the substitute is not considered good enough.
  I now come to castiron goods of all sorts, gutters, pipes, etc. According to the Minister's statement in another place, there were enough produced in September for 17,392 houses, but I am told that only 7,000 houses were completed. It therefore looks as though there ought to be enough, although my information is that the builders just cannot get them. The same thing applies to tiles for kitchens and for bathrooms, that orders placed twelve months ago are still not fulfilled. The same thing is happening in regard to roofing tiles, although there again the Minister said there were enough produced for 11,942 houses. Here again I would like to ask what is being done to see that the materials get distributed to the right quarters. The Minister speaking at Deptford on October 9 said: "It is no use grumbling at the Government; the bricks are on the site and the materials are there." As far as I know, the Minister may have been speaking about one particular site, but if you take sites by and large up and down the country these materials are not there, and that is the main cause of the lag in the building programme. At any rate, the Minister implies by his words that we are right to grumble if distribution is such that the bricks are not on the site and the other materials are not there either.
  When the Government, having the immense powers that they have, decide to deal with this matter, whether rightly or wrongly, by overall planning from the centre they must be responsible right down to the details on the site. I wonder whether anybody is really energetically pursuing these different shortages when they come to light. I remember very well in the initial days when the Ministry of Aircraft Production was founded under the driving force of the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, we had to go round to every available store and collect all sorts of things. We even sent across to France

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  to get some Merlin engines out just before the Germans reached them, and we were picking up little bits everywhere while there was a shortage. I remember, too, that when I became Minister I found that we had no less than 200 Wellington bombers without a propeller between them. One of my first jobs was to go into that propeller production. I went down myself and addressed the men who were making them, and I am glad to say that they increased their production immensely. Within four or five months we got all those aircraft supplied with propellers and the propeller situation remedied. Some direct action is needed just as much now. At that time the crying call was for planes; now the crying call is for houses. Let similar action be taken in regard to these materials for houses wherever a shortage turns up.
  I come now just for a moment or two—I do not want to delay your Lordships for long because a number of other noble Lords want to speak—to the labour situation. I should like to ask on that: Is there or is there not a shortage? The Government have the figures and should know. So far as I can make out, there are now in the building industry 1,010,000 people in Great Britain, and before the war there were 1,050,000 in the United Kingdom. Those figures cover Northern Ireland as well as England, Scotland and Wales. I presume that there are more than 40,000 in the building trade in Northern Ireland, so it looks to me as though by and large we have got about the building force now in the building industry in Great Britain that we had in the days before the war. It is lamentable to look at the rate of house production now and compare what was happening in the days before the war with what is happening at this moment. I do not know why it is. Do the Government know why it is? Do they know, for instance, how many bricks are being laid in a day by the average bricklayer in this country? I do not know, but I suspect that it is not nearly as many as were being laid in the pre-war days. The Government should know, and I ask them if they do know. If they do not know, I suggest that perhaps somebody had better find out.
  I would also like to ask whether the Government have considered putting to the employers and to the trade unions
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  engaged in the building industry the idea of working on an output bonus scheme. Whatever may be said by political idealists, the profit motive does work through every grade of society and with every man even down to the bricklayer, and if we could give an output bonus to the fellow who really lays more bricks than the average, then I believe we should see a great deal more use made of this labour and a larger number of houses erected. Government Departments are far too inclined to look just at the overall picture. I think that, overall, we may well have enough people in the building industry, especially if we can get the out-put up in some such way as I have suggested, but I suspect that there is an incredible shortage in most districts in the neighbourhood of London. I know places just outside the London area where the local authorities have gone to building contractors and asked them to build so many houses, 50,100 or whatever it may be, and have found after the contract has been arranged that there is no labour available.
  It seems to me that one of the things that ought to be done by the Ministry of Health is to see that where the labour is available to build there the materials should go, and where the labour and materials have gone there licences should be given much more freely than they are at present so that the building can progress where there are people actually at hand to do it. This overall level planning is absurd. It cannot be right to tell one local authority that it has forged ahead of its neighbours and therefore ought to slow down a little bit. If the Minister is right in saying that there is no labour shortage, and if in saying that the bricks and materials are on the site he means that they can be made available on all the sites, then it appears to me that you can do away with this policy of restriction where there is labour to erect the houses. I am not talking about the control of prices of materials, but as soon as you get a sufficiency of materials, believe me, you will make far greater progress if you take off the controls with regard to the distribution of materials than you will if you leave them on.
  Now I come to another matter. We have become a nation whose sports and pastimes include committees, as I think the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, said the other day, and we are also becoming a

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  nation which seems to think that as long as enough forms are filled in something has actually been achieved. The surveyor of the Bridgwater Council has said that it is necessary to complete 37 different forms before you can start to build a house. I should like to know whether that is right or not, because if it is right I think it is too many. I heard the other day of a contract to build 100 houses. It is quite true there had to be 14 different bills of quantities, but do your Lordships know the number of sheets of paper which had to be filled in before a start could be made? It took 17,100 different bits of paper before they could get on with the building of those houses. Somebody really ought to look into matters of this sort.
  LORD QUIBELL: It is not true.
  LORD LLEWELLIN: I am only asking if the Government can tell me how many forms have to be filled. I mean, of course, for everything in the house. I do not mean just to get the licence; I mean all the different forms which are required before you get the rain-water gutters, the baths, the tiles, the bricks and everything else which goes into a house. Let us know how many you have to fill in, and then we shall see whether I am right or wrong.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISION): It is quite right, of course, to ask the Government for information, but I understood the noble Lord to make a statement. He said it took 17,100 of these sheets, whatever they are. I should like to ask him if he will give us the source of his information and tell us who counted them.
  LORD LLEWELLIN: Certainly. I have the document and I will give it to the noble Lord afterwards. I was saying that I had heard of this and I was asking whether it was true, and if not, how many really were required. To the best of my belief, my information is correct. If it is not, I would like to be told where it is wrong. At any rate, one does know that there are masses of these forms and I suggest they should be reduced. The number I have mentioned includes, of course—let us be quite accurate—a certain number of duplicate, triplicate and quadruplicate copies, but even those may be unnecessary. They take up paper even if they do
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  not take up time, and they probably take up time as well.
  I want now to deal with one other matter which has given rise to quite a lot of political controversy, and that is the question of this one to four ratio of independent builders to local authorities. There has never been any doubt that those of us on this side of the House who take an interest in housing—and this applies to the man who was Minister of Health in the Coalition Government—quite realize that you have got to have a considerable proportion of the houses built to let. There is no question about that. The only thing I would say is that where you get an overall formula of one in four, although it may be right in some industrial areas, though it may not perhaps even be the right formula there, it is not right all over the country. Take, for example, South Coast resorts and places of that sort, in which people normally come and settle when they have retired. They like to buy their own houses out of their savings, to settle down in them and to feel they are their own houses. It seems to me that where we are going wrong is in trying to have an overall plan for all parts of the country. I believe that one of the things that ought to be done is to look at it and see where the plan needs modification. If materials are beginning to be in ample supply, as the Minister seems to suggest, then I think the plan certainly ought to be modified where there are small builders willing to undertake these jobs, and especially in cases where they are not big enough to compete for contracts with local authorities.
  Another matter about which I should like to ask the Government is where the trend of prices is going now. When the Subsidy Bill was introduced, your Lordships will remember, it was thought that the £22 per annum per house, made up partly from taxation and partly from rates, would be sufficient to bring the rents of houses down to an amount which it was thought the ordinary person should pay. One hears every day that prices are rising and that there have to be variations made in nearly every contract. At the time the £22 was put in it was felt that that would be the maximum, and I still hope it will be, because although these subsidies have to be given they are not good as a permanent arrangement and everybody would like to see them gradually

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  diminished. I would like to ask the Government whether prices are, by and large, being held so that that £22 is still enough.
  Of course, the main question—and I come back to that in my final word—is whether the Government are satisfied with the rate of house building to-day. I doubt whether either of the noble Lords who will reply for the Government will say that they are; that would be the kind of complacency I should not expect from either of them. But if the answer is "No," they have the full facts and they should tell us quite frankly why the rate is too slow and what are their difficulties. Men of good will of all Parties are out to help. We want to see the houses built. Are there shortages of material generally, or only of some materials, and if so which? Are there shortages of labour? Or is it that the materials are wrongly distributed? Are the local authorities acting quickly enough in these matters? Those are the kind of questions to which we should like answers. We should like to know the cause and what the Government, with all the vast power they possess, are going to do to get more acceleration in connexion with this most vital of our needs.
  3.20 p.m.
  VISCOUNT WIMBORNE: My Lords, I do not intend to follow the noble Lord who has introduced this Motion, and to whom I am sure the whole House is most indebted for bringing up this most important subject to-day, into all the ramifications of his most interesting speech. What I wish to do is to call your Lordships' attention to one or two matters to which I attach importance. I think it is agreed that the real reasons for the delay in the housing drive are difficulties in labour, scarcity of materials and rising prices. The noble Lord gave a formidable catalogue of the difficulties which are being encountered with regard to materials. I think one's sympathy goes out to the Government in this respect. Where I think criticism lies is in the machinery which they have set up in order to overcome this. As one would expect in these days, all the expedients advised by the Government consist of controls. It is always, "You cannot do this," and "You cannot do that."
  The two most important "cannots" which appear to operate in the building
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  industry are firstly, that private enterprise cannot build more than one house to every four by local authorities; and secondly, that local authorities and builders cannot exceed the ceiling price. I must confess that I have always been rather puzzled about this four to one ratio. Why four to one? Why not five to one or three to one? Why have it at all? After all, what we want are houses and not ratios. I should have thought that any set of people who are prepared and able to put up houses to-day ought to be given every encouragement. Anyhow, the figures for September are rather significant. Out of the 6,291 houses completed in that month, 3,724—that is more than half—were completed by private enterprise, and at the same time the local authorities had many more houses under construction. It is not as if the local authorities were very keen to have this greatness thrust upon them. I have seen it said that there are a number of local authorities who have not yet completed a single house. I should very much like the noble Lord who is to reply either to confirm or deny that. I personally hope that he will be able to deny it.
  Then there is the question of the price ceiling. I think it is common knowledge that the price ceiling is rapidly breaking down. It has not been mentioned officially, but I think it is sure to come out soon. It was a laudable attempt to keep down the cost of houses and thereby keep down the rents, but I am informed that it has become rapidly unworkable, and has become a discredit to those engaged in housing. All sorts of dodges and subterfuges are being used to get round it. I should have thought that the proper way was for the Government to control the price of raw materials and, if they dare, the wages of labour, rather than control the price of a house. It is, of course, part of a much bigger problem which the Government will have to face sooner or later if our industrial drive is going to have the success it deserves. But I do not think this price ceiling at the present moment is helping to solve that larger problem, and all it is doing is hindering building.
  Now I want to say a few words on the subject of houses still requisitioned by the Government. There are, I believe, very nearly 100,000 houses, two-thirds of which are in London, still under requisition. At a conservative estimate, taking the large with the small, they would

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  house at least half a million people if not more. One assumes that these houses are structurally sound, as Government Departments are not in the habit of allowing the rain to drip down the necks of their hard-worked staffs. If these houses could be released and reconditioned—and all they want in most places is a little paint and plaster—a contribution would be made to the housing problem as big as, or bigger than, that which has been made by the construction of new houses. The point is that the reconditioning of these houses does not affect very much the manpower of the building industry as such. Reconditioning of houses is the function of the decorating trade, and I am told that firms in that trade are having to turn away labour because they have not enough work for them to do. In passing, I may say that this is a human question as well as a housing question. There has been much correspondence in the Press lately from those unfortunate individuals who own their own houses; who eke out a meagre existence in boarding houses and hotels; and who cannot get their homes released. In many cases they are professional people whose livelihood depends on getting back to their homes. I suggest to His Majesty's Government that they should institute a searching inquiry into the whole question of the continued requisition of what are, after all, people's homes.
  I do not intend to say more than a few words on the rural question, as there are other noble Lords who will speak upon that. But I cannot help saying this. Agriculture is our most vital industry at the present time, and it is in jeopardy for want of labour. What is going to happen when prisoner-of-war labour is no longer available nobody dares to think. One of the reasons why labour is so difficult to get is scarcity of accommodation. Now most agricultural labourers' cottages are built by private enterprise, usually by agricultural landlords and farmers. On account of their remote position they do not fit in very well with most local authority schemes. Yet again, the dead hand of the four-to-one ratio makes itself felt. If you happen to live in a locality where the local authority is slack in its housing programme you cannot build your agricultural cottages. If you do overcome those difficulties, there are exasperating delays in getting your necessary permission. In my own case I have at last re
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  ceived a permit to build two agricultural cottages, but so far I have not been able to find a builder who will undertake the work. I have a feeling that the price ceiling has a good deal to do with this.
  Of course, many of the difficulties in the housing position come from the number of different authorities who are concerned, each of whom has separate responsibilities. I am told that as many as seven Ministries have a finger in the pie. One hesitates in these days to suggest that one more Government Department should be added to the large number at present existing, but would not one solution be a Ministry oil Housing or, better still, a Ministry of Housing and Planning, a Ministry which would take away from the Ministry of Health that side which deals with housing and combine it with the present duties of the Ministry of Town and Country Planning? Quite recently the Government have expressed their intention—I think with the approval of all Parties—of setting up a permanent Ministry of Defence. It seems to me that housing comes second only to defence in our national scheme to-day, and I think it is clear that you must include planning. We are desperately in need of houses, but equally we must have them in the right place if we are going to have a planning policy worthy of the name. The Liberal Party have long advocated this course, and 1. understand that at one time quite a large body of the supporters of His Majesty's Government were in favour of it.
  I will not detain your Lordships any longer, but I would like to add this. The more one thinks over this subject the more one comes—or at least I do—to the same conclusion that so many noble Lords in this House have come to over so many different and important subjects. That is that the present Government are becoming entangled in their own ideology. Though no doubt well meant, their fanatical zeal for State control and nationalization in many cases is failing to find solutions for the most important day-to-day problems. I do hope that the Government will be moved by the plea so eloquently put forward by my noble friend Lord Reading from these Benches last week. It is the Lilliputians that are holding down initiative in this country, be it in housing or in anything else. I am quite certain that unless the Government adopt more common sense

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  and less control their housing achievements will continue to be of a pedestrian character.
  3.31 p.m.
  VISCOUNT PORTAL: My Lords, this is the first time since I gave up my position in the Ministry of Works that I have spoken on this question of housing. That was exactly two years ago, and I take the opportunity of speaking to-day because during that time certain statements have been made that are not always quite true in some ways about temporary housing. My noble friend Lord Llewellin started on the question of temporary houses, and I would like very shortly to explain to the House how they originated in December, 1943. At that date the Secretary of State for Scotland, Mr. Tom Johnston, who worked very closely with me, asked me to go up to Scotland and see some experiments he had been carrying out for converting Nissen huts and other huts into temporary houses for the people. Like all Scotsmen, he was a very proud man and talked of having something ready for the 51st Division when they came back from the war. He asked me to go back to London and see if anything could be done in the way of providing something before the permanent houses could be started. In January, 1944, the Ministry, and people connected with us, got hold of what was really the most sensible idea. We went to people who understood mass production, which is absolutely essential, and found two firms, Pressed Steel and Brigg's Bodies, who knew mass production better than anyone, and we asked them to make us a pressed steel house. The house was designed by an architect from the Ministry, together with an outside architect. When I was dealing with the Ministry of Works I always thought the best way was to have representatives from outside as well as from the inside.
  We were not very long in getting out a design. I remember that the noble Viscount who now leads the House was extraordinarily kind to me in those days. He used to help me in every way he could, and he asked me when this would be ready. This was in February, 1944, and I gave him a promise that it should be ready on May 1. It was rather quick work, but the prototype was up by that date. Everybody went to see it; in fact, I think too many people went to see it.
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  If anyone designed a permanent house to-day and asked everybody to come and look at it, you would have plenty of criticism. We had criticism in abundance. We left it for two months. My noble friend Lord Llewellin talked about forms, but the amount of paper we used in taking down complaints was very great. Whether the people liked this house or not, there is one point I wish to correct here and now. This house, first of all, was called after the late Prime Minister, Mr. Churchill. When it was found it was not a popular house it was quite rightly called after me. That is as it should be. You do not want a great personality like the late Prime Minister to be tarnished. Everybody who saw the house saw that it was an ugly house. They forget, however, that it was very comfortable inside. I would much rather be comfortable inside and ugly outside.
  It really is rather ridiculous for people who are now undertaking housing to say the Portal house was stillborn. The Portal house is only a type of house. It was the super-feet, the fittings, and the size of the house for which we got out a prototype. The others, the Arcon, the Tarran, and the Uni-Seco, were all allowed to copy this because they all had to be identical to fit the foundations of the house. When you say that the Portal house was stillborn you mean the steel house. You take Northolt and these places and put up houses and cover them with foam slag, and bricks or what you like. If you are going to be responsible for the housing of this country you should understand that a type can be clad in a different form; even I, as Minister of Works, learnt that in two or three months. It was the steel house that was not proceeded with.
  Let me take your Lordships on from there. In May and June it was open to the public, and in July it went to Scotland. There the present Secretary of State and I met some Scottish ladies who wanted an extra washing bowl put in, and we had to change it for these Scottish people. It is quite a usual thing to have to make changes when you take anything north of the Tweed. At the end of July, the Government brought in a Bill which covered 200,000 of the prefabricated temporary houses. That Bill was produced on the last day before the adjournment of the House of Commons. The noble Lord, Lord Quibell, and I sat in the House of Commons gallery when the

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  debate was proceeding, but they had not long enough to discuss it and the Bill was adjourned until Parliament met again at the end of September. Before Parliament met again the Cabinet instructed me to get on with the houses and get the fittings. That matter was raised by the right honourable Member for Aldershot when discussions were started again in the House of Commons at the beginning of September. At that time the orders placed were as follows: In the first year there were to be 50,000 steel houses and the others were to be made by Uni-Seco, Tarran and Arcon. They were to be ordered to the tune of about 100,000. The steel houses were costed to the last penny. If you know anything about costing you will know that it is easy to cost anything on mass production. The other three houses were not mass produced. The advantage of the steel houses was that they would use different labour in the production and would not bite into the ordinary building labour. That is why that was started.
  At the same time, they were offering to us—and this is something which the Government, possibly rightly, have agreed to since—the aluminium house. I turned down the aluminium house on two grounds: first on the score of expense: and secondly because we could not have got it into production as quickly as steel. If your read the report of a debate which has taken place in another place you will see that some remarks have been made on the question as to whether or not steel was available. I was in charge of raw materials for one and a half years. I knew the Steel Controller. He had to work under me and I was responsible to the Minister of Supply. Directly the question of steel houses was raised, I sent for the Steel Controller and asked what steel was available. At that time sheet steel was being produced in this country at the rate of 1,100,000 tons, or just over, a year. If you take it that with fittings about five and three-quarter tons was needed per house, that works out at a total need of just under 300 tons for approximately fifty houses. We also had the question of steel tallied up with the motor car trade and we saw that they had all they wanted.
  I am telling your Lordships these things now to show you that we were not so foolish in those days as we have some-times been made out to be since. The
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  point I want to bring out with regard to this question of steel houses—and this is something which the noble Viscount the Leader of the House knows well—is that though these houses pleased nobody by their looks, they did set a standard of fittings which in the permanent houses could never be depreciated. These fittings had nothing to do with me personally. But there were two architects who Lad much to do with it. Women will confirm it that for the first time an effort was made in such structures to give them what they really wanted. I do not need to go into details, but such matters as built-in cupboards and kitchen units will be in the minds of those of your Lordships who have taken an interest in these matters. There is therefore, I think, a good case to be made out in regard to the fittings. Orders for those houses—I think for 250,000—were given in September. They were to be of the three types I have mentioned—Tarran, the Uni-Seco and the Arcon. That took us up till September. The interesting point is that where I was wrong was that I suggested that these houses should be in production nine months after the order was placed for jigs and tools.
  As I say, I was wrong, but other people have been wrong about timing during and after the war. The Ministry of Supply undertook that they would have steel houses in production in the autumn of last year. I was budgeting on it for June or July. They will tell you at the Ministry of Supply that that was the date specified by the order. As you know, I was warned by the noble Viscount the Leader of the House that to have anything to do with housing was very, very dangerous. He said: "Take my case as an example. See what happened to me." As usual, he was right. But see what has happened to him since he has had nothing to do with housing! Not only has he become Leader of the House but he is also Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs. I have gone back to the railways and I undérstand the Government are going to try to nationalize them; so soon I shall be out of another job. The noble Viscount the Leader of the House is now far better off than I, but I must admit that he warned me at the time. As two years have elapsed, I suggest that it is only right and fair that I should be allowed to explain my case. I do not know what the reasons were which led to the change, for I was

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  out of the Government, but I think that if I had had my way I would have gone on with the construction of steel houses rather than aluminium houses. It is no good saying now that steel was not then in adequate supply; there is a far greater shortage to-day in the supply of steel than there was then. I could not have been very far wrong to order 50,000 steel houses then.
  Now just a few words about permanent houses, which are the important factor to-day. The construction of temporary houses was to be carried on until such time as permanent houses were available and then the permanent houses were to take their place. We started in August, 1944, and built the first houses at Northolt. We were anxious to get on with permanent houses and, as a start, seven or eight of them were put up. I wished to try to start a costing department in my Ministry to help deal with the prices of houses and these houses were costed up. The average worked out at about £1 per foot super when they were put up in small quantities. If they were put up in larger numbers the cost would have been under that. They were, so far as I remember, about 850 feet super altogether and everything was fitted in that. That was a yardstick house. It was erected to use as a yardstick by which to judge the cost of the others. An order was placed with a large contractor for 40 houses of the same size as this yardstick house. I wanted to see what his costs would be. They worked out very close to our costs and thereby gave me a verification which I much wanted.
  The noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, has asked the question: Where are the houses that were expected? My view is that much the greatest danger point is touched upon in the question, where are prices going to? The noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, knows what happened after the last war. To-day prices are soaring. It is no good now talking about what happened between the wars. We want to get on with the job to-day. But you will not be able to build the needed houses with prices at the level they are going to. We have got to remedy that somehow. I worked very closely with the builders and the operatives during the two and a half years I was at the Ministry of Works and I say that the real solution of all these troubles is to use the industry that under
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  stands the business. You can control these people nowadays, but they must be the driving force, the brains of the building operation. During the war our contractors did wonderful work for various Ministries such as the Air Ministry, M.A.P., the War Office and the Admiralty. And when I say that the contractors did wonderful work I include of course the men.
  To-day, as your Lordships know, the contract has been given to a great contractor for the work at Heath Row. You could not imagine local authorities doing that work. You may say that that is a different thing, but I say the way to solve this problem is to get the best contractors and men to work and put the responsibility on them. When I was handed over responsibility in connexion with outcrop coal by the Ministry of Fuel we had contractors made responsible for getting it. They will tell you that I, myself, as Minister watched the prices but they did the work, and they did it extraordinarily well. We had only 350,000 men left in the building industry at the end of the war and now the difficulty is in connexion with the balance of different kinds of workers.
  Lord Llewellin has asked about prices. One thing which is helping to put up the prices is that we have not been getting the proper balance of building workers. You find yourself sometimes with one bricklayer for thirty houses. What disturbed the balance? One thing was the bombing of London. The Minister of Labour, who is now the Foreign Secretary, and myself know something of this. We were going to have 75,000 men in London. It is a very difficult subject. Another question is asked about tiles. Is it suggested that we were going to lose all the tiles that there were lying about after the bombing of thousands of houses in London? We have to catch up with events, and if we are genuine we have to try and get over the difficulties. We must be fair to this great building industry of ours. You can take any industry—I had better not mention any particular industries, or I shall get into trouble—and you will find bad people in it. When you talk about jerry-building you should remember that we have our standards to which we can make people work. What is happening at the present time is that because prices are so high authorities are doing a thing which is iniquitous; they are getting prices and they are negotiating.

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  That means the builders have to leave out something here and something there. It is not a true tender. It gives the clerk of the works an opportunity to knock off something here and something there. I had great trouble with negotiating over 3,000 agricultural houses which were built, as the noble Viscount, the Leader of the Opposition, knows perfectly well. We must have fair and proper tendering for these houses to-day.
  I am perfectly convinced that there are two things at which we have to aim. We have to get the great building trade operating again, with the good will of everybody, and certainly we have to get the local authorities going. Before the war they were responsible for 25 per cent. of the production of houses. The actual operation, however, should be under the building trade itself. As the noble Viscount knows, we cannot do what was done after the first world war, when prices became too high. All that was done then was to stop building altogether. We cannot put men out of work for that reason. That would be wrong. What we can do, is to let the ordinary builders get going. They ought to be the yardstick on prices. Those who are running a local authority to-day, build as good a house as possible. We have not reached the stage of idealism when it means as much to you if you put one penny out of the rates on building, as if the money came from your own pocket. You look after the rates, but economy must come from the builder; and the builder must be the yardstick of the local authority.
  For goodness' sake let us remember that ever-increasing prices will be the downfall of building. I have only made suggestions. I do not say they are right, but I do think they have some practical sense in them and, after all, the man who worked with me most loyally—Mr. George Hicks, my Parliamentary Secretary, who alone has fought my battles for two years, since I have been out of office—agreed with everything that I did. He was brought up in what I call proper building in this country, and for him to support me in the plan for temporary houses was a great feat for a man who might have been expected to be against me. He supported me in every word. I thought, after what he has said, that
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  I might be allowed to make my few remarks here to-day.
  3.55 p.m.
  LORD QUIBELL: My Lords, we have just listened to a very interesting speech, with most of which I agree—particularly the illustration about a penny of your own or a penny from the ratepayers. That does remind me of a gentleman I knew, who once put up for a certain council upon which I sat. He issued his election address, a fully-worded document which required nearly a poster station on which to put it. And the last paragraph read "In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, I shall always remember that it is your money I am spending, and not my own." Strange to say, he was elected.
  I would not have taken part in this debate if I did not feel very strongly that, through one cause or another, our progress in housing has been hindered and hampered at almost every turn. I propose, during the course of my speech, to deal with some of the hold-ups which give to those of us engaged in this industry a feeling of almost complete frustration and hopelessness. First and foremost of the "headaches" is the supply of timber. From information that I have gathered—being engaged in the industry, and having taken on a fairly large contract of housing—I may say that I have been most anxious to purchase timber wherever it could be found, no matter whether it was far or near. Finally, I resolved that I would have one of the Ministry's officials from Nottingham to come and see me, and at the same time I would have one of the directors of the biggest timber importing firms on the north-east coast. The two gentlemen came. I told the Ministry official my difficulty, and asked him where the timber was, as I understood that it was lying in dumps. Of course, the official said: "The truth is, there is none. The timber is not there." I then asked the timber importer: "What can you do for us?" His answer was that so far as his firm were concerned, although they were quite willing to supply the timber, the fact was that they had not got it. Finally, I found that the only firm I could get to take up the contract was a firm who said that they could not supply the timber at that time, but would do their very best to help me.
  My next step was to Bognor Regis, to buy four standards of second-hand timber, to make some progress, because

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  we had sufficient bricks, sufficient men, and almost sufficient of everything else. There were two or three things in short supply, but we wanted to get on with our housing. The noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, said the estimate of the Coalition Government was to erect 220,000 houses; but the limit for them would have been precisely the same as it is for this Government. The number of houses finished at the end of September, or the end of October, matters very little. If there had been greater speed, then the national stocks available in different parts of the country would have been exhausted sooner, and the sooner we should have come to the slowing up process, because timber is one of the most vital products in our housing programme.
  It is true that schemes are going slow. Those of us in the industry know why they are going slow. It is because the timber is not available. I took the opportunity of writing to the firm concerned to supply me with timber, and perhaps I may quote their reply, because it is essential that we should know, and face up to this very vital problem. Everything we can do to solve it, we ought to do. The letter I received stated:
  "There is a very grave shortage of timber in England at the present time, and with the information as to future arrivals, as far as I have been able to ascertain there is not the slightest likelihood of the housing schemes that have now been started being completed by the middle of next year."
  This gentleman is one of the biggest importers of timber. The main type of timber which we require for housing purposes is 2 in. by 4 in., 2 in. by 7 in. or maybe 2 in. by 3 in. for spars and ceiling joists and flooring. This man goes on to say that there is only a certain amount of 2 in. by 4 in. and 2 in. by 7 in. which the miller can cut out of a tree to make the best economic use of it. The consequence is that there is a limited quantity of such timber. In addition certain specifications require seventeens in roof spars and twelves or thirteens in joists, and as a consequence the timber available for housing actually is limited not to the 220,000 standards which were said to be imported, but to the amount of building timber you can get out of the total amount imported.
  Throughout last year, of course there was the reserve of the national stock
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  which could be called on. But now there is no stock. Every standard of building timber coming into the country is required immediately for consumption so that there would be no benefit in trying to pile up a stock as that would only be further delaying the building of houses. I have succeeded in geting some timber. It has been divided between the builders. Very few of us have been able to do anything with it. It is only a mere handful that we have been able to get. This merchant says concerning timber imports from Canada, that Canada would seem to be the obvious place from which to increase our timber imports. There has, however, been trouble with regard to strikes in that country, and of course they have their own leeway to make up in building which lapsed to such a considerable extent during the war. The position is also dependent upon shipping being available, and it would seem that American ships are busy carrying their own goods. It is said that timber is not the only thing holding up the building of houses. The shortage of timber, is, of course, the main reason for the hold-up, but I have found another hold-up which I will mention in a few moments.
  I have what I consider to be a practical suggestion which I shall make. Joseph Cowen, that great man who founded the Newcastle Chronicle, made a famous speech in another place on one occasion, in which he said that a man must serve his time to every trade save censure, but critics are ready made. He was a good old Liberal. No wonder the noble Viscount sitting on the Liberal Benches smiles. He was a great character. The practical suggestion which I have to make is this. I have been doing a considerable amount of building during the war. As a consequence of the difficulty of importing timber there has developed a system of making precast hollow concrete beams for roofs. They do not require one ounce of timber. I would commend this scheme to the Ministry of Works and the Ministry of Health. I may say that I made the suggestion to my own borough council and in turn to some members of the housing committee, and, within the last fortnight, I have taken some of their representatives with me to inspect it. It was dry, durable, strong, and there was no condensation. Some of these beams have been up for three years and show no

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  sign of either dampness or condensation and they do not require anything done to them.
  LORD LLEWELLIN: May I ask the noble Lord: Do they need steel reinforcement?
  LORD QUIBELL: Very slight—they are really light beams. They are hollow. I think it is the hollowness of the beams that prevents condensation. The use of them involves no alteration in the design of the house. A roof can be put on without an ounce of timber being used, I would ask your Lordships to consider what it means so far as the housing programmes of the Government and the various councils are concerned. It will mean that twice the number of houses can be built with the same amount of timber. I do not see why you should not have flat roofs. Our hospital extension at Scunthorpe has a flat roof. The post office has a flat roof. It is true that there is perhaps not much architectural beauty about it. If any of your Lordships went to Scunthorpe you would not think that the building was a post office. You would think it was perhaps an Odeon picture house. Nevertheless the buildings can be made quite attractive with flat roofs. I would say to the Ministry concerned, "Thank heavens we have got the cement." We have got the raw materials. We can manufacture those concrete beams and, as I suggest they do, and indeed can prove, they make a sound job.
  We cannot manufacture a tree. It takes sixty years to grow a tree. But you can manufacture hollow concrete beams in order to provide shelter over the heads of our people in a few weeks. We want houses to be built quickly and it is for that reason that I make that suggestion from my own experience. I have received instructions to put up twenty-four roofs—that is twelve pair—with these very beams within the last week. I commend this suggestion to the Government, because while we have not the available trees in this country we have got the raw materials for this type of construction and we have got the skill. I hope and trust that the Government will adopt what I have tried to put forward as a practical contribution to the housing problem.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I ask the noble Lord: Does he make floors of concrete
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  as well, because wood is not available for the floors?
  LORD QUIBELL: It is a roof. There is no floor on top of a roof.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: No. I say the floors of the rooms for which you require wood to-day.
  LORD QUIBELL: No, the roofs. Wood is only required for the first floor and joists. No timber is required in the later stages, because for the greater part it is covered with concrete; then on top of this are laid two coats of roofing felt or rock asphalt. It is warm and durable and there is nothing unsightly about it. I hope that this suggestion will be adopted in view of the fact that timber is not available. Another advantage is that you only require half the amount of ceiling board per house. The underside of the beams receive the plaster and this forms the ceiling. You save considerably in down spouts which are in short supply. One of the difficulties in the building trade has been the question of castings, They are not available. We have to find a substitute for them. I think we have done so. I have done my best in this direction because I want to see houses put up to shelter the people.
  We formerly got timber from Finland. Finland has now lost the island of Karelia to Russia. Russia herself is short of timber and is taking as reparations most of the timber which Finland has got to spare, so there will be little or no timber from that source. Russia's processing mills are chiefly in the Ukraine and White Russia, and her timber is not grown there. Most of it is grown in Siberia, thousands of miles away. So far as Russia is concerned I do not think there is any hope of our getting any timber from that source for some time to come. It seems to me that the remaining sources are Canada and Germany. I whole-heartedly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, when he says we ought not: to have any scruples whatever about getting timber from Germany. After all, Germany started the war and ultimately destroyed our great factories that: produced the building materials necessary for housing. In addition to that, Germany destroyed thousands of our homes and so made many of our people homeless. I should not have the slightest compunction about increasing the number of people employed in obtaining

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  timber from Germany, if we had the labour available. The timber area of Germany in pre-war days was 25 per cent. of the total area, whereas our own is only 5 per cent. of the total area. Without the slightest hesitation I should say that from that source we could increase our supply and we should make a serious attempt to do so; indeed, I have no reason to doubt that the Government are trying their best to get as much timber as they possibly can from Germany, but I earnestly impress upon them some alternative method of dealing with the matter.
  With regard to Sweden the difficulty is that she will not sell timber for money. Money does not matter; what Sweden wants is our coal. The consequence is that, so far as Sweden is concerned, she is not playing to the extent that she could play because, first of all, she does not want our money and, secondly, the people who were formerly engaged in the milling industry are now providing a kind of fuel out of their own wood for their own industrial and domestic purposes. One does not criticize them for that.
  I do not want to detain your Lordships too long, but something has been said about prices. I was very pleased that the noble Viscount, Lord Portal, did have a word to say for the building trade. I am a member of the Operative Bricklayers' Society and have been since 1899. I have never been a member of an employers' organization. So I have had to stand and listen to members of the building trade and contractors condemned because prices were high—"it was a ramp; price fixation"—and they were making huge profits out of it. I have had a fellow who knows more and more about less and less come to me and tell me that my tender was too high, and, indeed, almost to say that I knew nothing whatever about it; I have been that long in it that I have ceased to know anything about it. You can take it from me that there has been no ramp and no price fixation in the building trade.
  Let me give you an illustration. Some Government Department fixes the price of bricks, I do not. The price I have got to pay to the bricklayer is fixed; the price I have got to pay for the lime is fixed; I have not got anything to do with it. If you take joinery, some Government Department
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  controls the price for timber and there the price is fixed at three times at least what it was pre-war. I have a list of prices here which I have got out from 1939 up to date. Some of these prices would be astonishing. I pay a price for the timber and all I have to do is reckon it up. If you go to the plumber it is precisely the same thing. There is a price fixed for all the sanitary goods. There is a price fixed per ton for lead; the plumbers' wages are fixed, and all I have to do is to reckon it up. If you go right through the whole price structure there is not a single thing that is not controlled in price from the first operation to the last. They talk about "making a ring" of it. Recently, in September, the Ministry of Supply allowed an increase in price for an article that I cannot even get. I cannot see how an increase in price makes rain-water goods available. It does not make them available at all. If they are not there it is no good increasing the price.
  There is one bright spot I will give to the noble Viscount, Lord Portal. If it were not in your Lordships' House I would have to give the noble Lord a glass of brandy or he would fall off his seat. It is that during this last month I got a shock when I had a notification that cement has dropped down 2s. a ton. But that is the only reduction I have known take place. I say that, so far as price levels, etc., are concerned, the ordinary building trade worker does not fix those prices; they are fixed for us and we cannot help ourselves. You either take it or you do not take it, and as there is a shortage the effect is that you have either got to pay and look pleasant about it or you cannot have it at all. I have had to be very diplomatic with the people who have come to see me. I have got the supplies.
  I want to say a word about a matter on which I shall have a good deal of sympathy in certain quarters of your Lordships' House, because I believe the other side of the House nearly always steals the thunder out of this business. I am going to refer to the Housing (Rural Workers) Act. I have had this letter from a farmer who was a constituent of mine. He is a very good farmer; he farms 12,000 acres now and owns 12,000 acres, and he has been a wonderful farmer. There is no question about his qualities

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  as a farmer or he would not be where he is to-day. Under the Housing (Rural Workers) Act he received a £100 grant for each of the houses he has reconditioned. I asked him about his houses when he came to our agricultural show and he said he would write and let me know. This is what he said:
  "Re the 140 houses which I have reconditioned or built new. Most of them have the £100 grant, but there are 12 that I get £15 a year on, or £10 a year in the case of the first four."
  That is 16 out of 140.
  "three of these have been built at Gard-ham (near Beverley, Yorkshire); the majority of them at Willoughton; a few at Coates, near Lincoln; some more at Horkstow; and one at Redbourne."
  This is all I have got to say about it. I wish the Minister could reconsider it. If there is a shortage of materials—and there is—then we have to admit it, and efforts should be made in the direction of enabling this man and others to find shelter for the workmen in the rural areas. That should be done. No preconceived ideas with regard to it are going to prevent me from saying that I think the Housing (Rural Workers) Act should be re-enacted to try and see if we cannot get more houses.
  Then we have the Portal house. My only complaint about the Portal house—I do not know whether I put it down in the noble Lord's book of words; I should have done—is that I should have to get on my knees to get my shirt off. In these rural parts we first of all want sewage disposal. Every little stream in every village in my county has become polluted, and that will become intensified unless we get sewerage, which I consider to be even more important than immediate water supplies. How long are some of these people to wait before they get sewerage, water supplies, and electricity supplies? I know some of these cottages that want a little money spending on them, and if I had my way I should make it compulsory for them to be put into a proper state of repair. It ought to have been done long ago by the competent officers of the local authorities. There ought not to be the slightest objection to granting £100 so that you could insist on having it done, with the safeguard that the county council officer shall be the one who says it is either too bad and cannot be renovated, or that it can be renovated, and who approves of the work that is done, or sup
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  posed to be done, before the grant of money is made. I consider myself that it would cost £100, and £100 at 2½ per cent. is a shilling a week. It may be a temporary expedient, but so are your temporary houses, which are supposed to last for ten years. If these last for ten years, they have cost £10 a year each, but if the temporary houses have to be destroyed they have cost £1,000 each, If there were an immediate alternative, I could understand it, but there is not. I therefore sincerely hope that the Government will reconsider re-enacting the Housing (Rural Workers) Act and give our people, where it is at all possible, the chance to put a shelter over the heads of some of the people in our rural villages.
  4.23 p.m.
  LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, my noble friend who initiated this debate said he felt it would not be regarded as waste of time to raise this most important question of housing this afternoon. I can certainly say, on behalf of those sitting on these Benches, that we welcome the opportunity which the noble Lord has provided for this discussion to take place. After all, the question of housing is not a Party issue; it is an overriding national problem. Members in all parts of the House unite, as they have done on other occasions, in showing a practical sympathy in the question and an anxious concern that our efforts shall be commensurate with the task and the results in keeping with our hopes.
  There is no dispute as to the urgency and extent of the housing need, on which all Parties are in full agreement. The need is due not only to the effects of the war, to extensive bomb damage and destruction and the practical cessation of housing activities, but also to housing policy before the war, when houses were built in great numbers but nearly all for sale so that the needs of the poorer people, who could not afford to buy a house, were comparatively neglected. I rather felt, when the noble Lord was painting his picture about the queue and the effects it would have upon the conscience of the nation, that he had overlooked the fact that we have just emerged from six years of the most destructive war in history and that we ourselves have a special part of our housing problem which arises from that war. When the war ended we were faced with a gigantic housing problem. At the same time, other massive problems

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  faced us—demobilization, the redeployment of labour, the changeover of industry from war production to peace production, the building up of a planned economy, the demand of large devastated and disorganized areas for commodities and materials which were not available in anything like adequate quantities, and, last, the general world political and economic problems which constitute the major part of the task of peace-making. It is against this background that the housing activities of the Government during the past twelve or fifteen months should be viewed and assessed.
  Before dealing with the facts of the progress achieved, there are a number of matters I feel I should mention. As essential parts of their housing policy the Government made a number of important decisions. The first was that the principal responsibility for the production of houses should be placed upon the local authority. Let me say here that it is gratifying to have the view from an independent source that any Government would have had to use the local authorities as the chosen instrument for at least 80 per cent. of the post-war housing programme.
  At this stage I should like to make reference to the point raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Wimborne. He asked if it were true that there were any local authorities who were not actually building houses. I think the record of the response of local authorities throughout the country is a remarkable one, but it is true that there are some who have not started to build houses. The simple fact is that they are fewer by over 300 than those who were not building houses in 1938, after twenty years of peace. The second decision was that the majority of houses built should be for letting to those in the greatest need. This entailed making the control of houses and the selection of tenants the responsibility of the local authorities and, as we all know, generous financial help has been given by the Exchequer to bridge the gap between the present high cost of building and the rents the tenants can pay. The third decision was that the proportion of new houses for private ownership should not exceed something like the ratio of one to four. This is necessary both on account of the enormous requirement for houses to let and of the shortage of building
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  labour and of essential materials and components. The noble Viscount, Lord Wimborne, asked why the ratio should be one to four. The answer is that that is roughly the proportion of people amongst those in most urgent need of accommodation who are likely to be able to buy their own houses.
  The criticism was made by the noble Lord who opened the debate that full use is not being made of the private builders, or at any rate that they are unnecessarily restricted in their operations. The actual building of houses for local authorities is being done, with very few exceptions, by the private builders.
  LORD LLEWELLIN: I did not put it that way, if I may say so. I fully realize that practically all the building in the country has been done by the private builder. What I did say was that I thought the four to one ratio was not correct for the country as a whole. There are some areas where the proportion of people wanting to buy and live in their own houses is different from others. Where you have those areas, with a small builder who has not got a contract for thirty or forty houses, that ought to be reconsidered.
  LORD HENDERSON: I did not intend to misrepresent what the noble Lord said, but I will, if I may, proceed with this point and deal with his point later. The local authorities give the contract, the builder builds the houses, and any attempt to differentiate between houses built for the local authority and houses built for private persons is a misconception. The business of the builders is to build houses. It is not their business to determine, in time of shortage, who shall occupy the houses when they have been built. That is a question of social justice and not of building technique, and the Government are determined that the control of the bulk of the houses must rest with the local authorities.
  The noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, I gather was not so much resisting the ratio of one to four, but was complaining more as to its rigid application across the country. There is no rigid application; it is not a one in four that must always be maintained at every stage. The real question in a locality is the question of the supply of building labour. Let me tell your Lordships what is the machinery

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  and the process for dealing with the labour supply in any given area. The main local problem is labour supply and its allocation between the various essential works schemes within the area. To ensure the proper allocation of the labour force, zonal conferences are regularly held between all the local authorities in a zone and the representatives of the Government Departments concerned. At these conferences figures are tabled showing the labour requirements for the next three or six months and the labour force available to meet them. The most effective distribution of the available labour force is arranged as between local authority permanent and temporary housing schemes, private enterprise building and essential maintenance and repair work. In this way it should normally be possible for the private builder to obtain his fair share of the labour, always provided, of course, that the local authority has not already issued so many licences as to over-balance the proportion between municipal and private building. As regards the furnishing of supplies to the private builder, where he is operating under licence he is in exactly the same position as the contractor working for a local authority.
  I would just like to say a word about building standards. Local authorities are now building a better house than before the war. The most notable difference is in the size of the standard house, 900 square feet minimum as compared with a pre-war minimum of 750 square feet. Other improvements which delight the housewife are in the standard of heating and lighting equipment, in the fitting up of the kitchen and scullery, in the provision of fitted cupboards and in the inclusion of hot water to the bath. The noble Lord made a special point about housing costs. A pre-war house to-day would cost rather more than twice what it cost before the war, given the same standards. Since local authority houses are being built to a better standard they are costing considerably more than twice the cost of the pre-war house. During the year wages have increased and the cost of certain materials has gone up. As the supply of materials improves it is hoped that increases in output from building labour will balance the increase in wages.
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  The Minister is not unmindful of the effects of the trend which is showing itself. The cost of house building is already high, and it ought not to be allowed to go higher. It is recognized that the present control of prices is not altogether effective. The Ministry is keeping a close watch and the matter has been investigated and a Report dealing with building materials and components is now being considered by the Minister of Works. This Report has been prepared by the Costing Section of the Ministry of Works and Buildings. It was set up, I believe, by the noble Viscount, Lord Portal, when he was Minister of Works, and I think the noble Viscount was satisfied that it was an effective piece of machinery for this purpose. At the same time, I should mention that constant scrutiny over tender prices is maintained by the Ministry of Health. As regards the increased costs to local authorities, to which I referred, this has been offset by the reduction in the rate of interest at which they borrow money, which was reduced from 3⅛ per cent. to 2½ per cent.
  LORD LLEWELLIN: That means that the Exchequer part of the subsidy at any rate, will not go up, and because they have to borrow money it may largely still remain at the £22 by and large.
  LORD HENDERSON: I think I am right in my recollection that when the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous) Act was passing through this House I stated that the subsidy of £22 would come up for review, speaking from memory, at the end of this year.
  LORD LLEWELLIN: We hoped it was a downward one.
  LORD HENDERSON: That is true, but what will be the action taken upon it up or down is, of course, a matter that must remain to be decided in due course, and. I am not in a position to indicate to the noble Lord what is likely to happen. Perhaps I ought to indicate, in view of the fact that it has been raised, the present position with regard to building labour. Labour actually employed on housing work increased by 75 per cent. between July 31, 1945, and September 30, 1946, from 343,000 to 603,900. Because of conditions caused by the war 147,000 are employed on war damage repairs. This is a diminishing problem, and as it disappears the workers

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  will go on to permanent housing construction. One hundred thousand workers are engaged upon conversion, 124,000 on repair and maintenance, and 40,000 are engaged on the erection of temporary houses, leaving 191,000 on permanent house construction and the preparation of sites.
  I now come to the question of materials, a matter which I think was raised by all the speakers who haw, taken part in the debate. Noble Lords may have seen the report of a speech delivered yesterday by the Minister of Works and Buildings, in which he gave figures indicating that a considerable improvement has been effected in the supply of certain basic materials and components. The noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, put to me a number of points on particular commodities. I am not in a position to answer them all, but I shall be able to refer to one or two of them. I will give, as examples of the increases, that the increase of building bricks is 300 per cent., of rain-water goods 143 per cent., of baths 75 per cent., of gas and electric cookers 83 per cent., and of facing bricks 500 per cent.
  LORD LLEWELLIN: I do not want to interrupt the noble Lord too much, but I remember considerable concern in another place when, before the war, the Secretary of State for War said that there had been a 100 per cent. increase in anti-aircraft guns, and nobody knew whether that meant two or ten. It does not get us much further.
  LORD HENDERSON: I am sorry, but I was trying to avoid giving too many heavy figures to your Lordships. For example, I gave the figure of 300 per cent. for bricks. The brick output in October was 442,000,000. The figure for facing bricks, one of the materials mentioned by the noble Lord, was 67,678,000 for September. I understand that that production is practically back to its pre-war level.
  LORD HARLECH: Could the noble Lord give us the figures for slates? Many buildings are held up by the shortage of slates.
  LORD HENDERSON: The production of slates in December, 1945, was 6,773 tons. The production in July, 1946, was over 9,000 tons, an improvement of
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  33⅓ per cent. It was in order to avoid having to deal with rather a heavy mass of figures that I gave percentages.
  LORD WOLVERTON: Before the noble Lord leaves that point, could he tell me what proportion of gas and electric stoves is being exported?
  LORD HENDERSON: I cannot answer that offhand without notice. To the noble Lord who raised the question of slates, I would say that the report on the Welsh quarry industry, which will shortly be published, makes certain recommendations for methods of improving output which are now under consideration. There is, of course, a substitute for the slate damp-proof course in bituminous sheet, and this is in good production.
  Next I turn to the question of timber which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, and by subsequent speakers. The most crucial shortage is in respect of timber. The amount of soft wood available for housing is dependent upon the amount that can be imported into this country, and imports are limited by the heavy demand for reconstruction in the exporting countries and in other parts of the world. Meanwhile, the maximum effort is being made to augment present supplies and to find additional sources of supply. In the meantime, as the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, stated, it has been necessary to reduce the allowance of soft wood from 2 standards to a maximum of 1.6 standards per house.
  VISCOUNT PORTAL: Might I ask the noble Lord whether the figure for soft wood per house is still the same as it was in 1943 or 1944, when it was about £ per house?
  LORD HENDERSON: I cannot answer that offhand, but if the noble Lord wishes I will see that he gets the information. The noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, asked me about the imports of timber from Germany. Some 10,000 standards were imported from the British zone in October, and the volume is steadily increasing. We hope for at least 100,000 standards during the first six months of 1947. In addition, more deliveries of timber are now being made from the United States zone under an initial contract for 20,000 standards.
  I will just say a word or two about priorities. So long as the production of essential materials and fittings remains unequal to the expanding demand, it is clear

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  that a system of priority distribution is necessary to direct supplies to housing and to other essential work. It is true that there have been some difficulties in the field of distribution from the factory to the merchant and the merchant to the site, but these difficulties have been eased by the Works and Buildings "A" Priority Scheme which was put into force last April. Although some leakages have occurred, this scheme as a whole is achieving the desired results. The special priority which has been accorded, within the framework of the W.B.A. Scheme, to outstanding demands for permanent houses which were up to eaves level at the end of August has thrown up much useful data about the incidence of shortages and the necessity for the further use of alternatives for the scarcer materials—quite apart from the effect it has had in speeding up deliveries. It has also brought to light some anomalies in the distributive system which the Ministry will seek to correct.
  The limiting factor on the progress of building the houses has been the supply of labour and materials, to which I have referred. Nevertheless, a great deal has been accomplished. By the end of September, homes had been provided, whether in new houses or by the requisitioning, repair or conversion of existing premises, for 242,000 families or something like 800,000 persons. In addition, some 200,000 new houses, permanent and temporary, were under construction, and the total number of houses built, building and in contract was over 460,000. As noble Lords will remember, the Government have accepted that some 750,000 houses are needed to provide a separate home for every family which needs one, and I think it will be seen that in terms of houses built, building or in contract, substantial progress has been made towards this figure.
  The noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, asked me especially about the position of temporary houses. The total programme amounts to 158,748 houses. By November 9, the latest date for which figures are available, the number of houses completed had increased to 62,150 in England and Wales and 10,387 in Scotland, making 72,537 together with a further 18,600 and 3,569, respectively, in the course of erection, giving a total of 94,706 temporary houses erected or under erection in Great Britain at the present time. The rate of completion has been
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  stepped up considerably in recent months and for a number of weeks now it has been in excess of 2,500 a week. Every effort is being made to maintain this output. Aluminium houses, which are the last of the temporary houses, are now being erected at an increasing rate, and there is little doubt that the whole programme for temporary houses will be completed by August of next year. Where progress has been slow is in the completion of permanent houses, as Lord Llewellin has said. This is the part of the job which is entrusted to the private builder under contract.
  One of the principal causes of this, as I have said, is the shortage of labour and materials. Only some 32,000 new permanent houses had been completed by September 30. To speed this up and to get as many people as possible housed before the worst of the winter, the Government launched the "Finish the Houses" Campaign, which has for its object the completion by the end of the year of all houses up to roof level by August 31—that is to say, about 30,000 houses. Thus, for the first time, a target was announced, but it is a realistic short-term target related to specific visible houses. Employers, workers, distributors and local authorities all undertook to give full support to the campaign. The rate of completion of houses has already begun to show a marked increase in spite of the fact that the weather is becoming less and less suitable for building. The administrative work has been done; the materials are available; it only remains for the builders to make a determined effort to finish the job.
  This progress represents a period of about fifteen months coming immediately after a great world war. It represents a considerable effort, and the results are encouraging. The noble Lord has asked whether we are satisfied. I think he knew before he put the question the answer which he would get. Of course the Government are not fully satisfied. It is realized that we are only at the beginning of the task. The rate of budding of permanent houses needs to be stepped up. The building industry needs to recover its pre-war rhythm. We have still to achieve an adequate, balanced building labour force. We have still to overtake shortages, in the supply of certain materials, components and fittings and to improve distribution. But, at the same time, the

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  experience gained in the past year will be of great value as we reach the second stage. Moreover, we are coming towards the end of the temporary houses programme which will then cease to make its demands both on building labour and on building materials. As a fair assessment of the position, against the background of exceptional difficulties and problems which I mentioned at the beginning of my speech, I think that what has been done across the whole field of housing is both satisfactory and encouraging. Not only must the effort be maintained, but there must be an even greater drive and larger output during the next stage, so that we may make the advance in housing that we all wish to see achieved.
  4.58 p.m.
  VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: My Lords, I do not propose to keep your Lordships very long to-night, and I certainly shall not attempt to rival the excellent speeches which have been made to-day by people who are intimately acquainted with the building trade—a thing which I cannot profess for myself. If there is one matter that is absolutely agreed upon on all sides it is that the rise in cost of building has been alarming. The perfectly extraordinary figures given by the noble Lord who has just spoken show just how much those costs have increased, and I understand that to-day the Minister in charge of this matter has said that the rate of London building is too slow. He went on to say—and this should interest noble Lords who are connected with building—that if this were a military operation you could introduce discipline into the whole thing and shoot a few builders who did not toe the line. I am in hopes that the mortality in this House will not be increased having regard to that suggestion. At any rate, the noble Lord who has spoken to-day on the subject of his own building should be able to get such speed into the operation of building.
  I will give your Lordships one more figure. After giving us a lot of figures, my noble friend Viscount Portal has stated that prices are being carried up, are soaring sky high, and that the rise must be stopped. How it is to be stopped, it was not for him to say, but the Government have got to take steps, because we cannot go on with the position as it is now. In 1933, building costs per foot
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  super of a subsidized house were 7s. 10½d. (These figures were given in The Times by Mr. B. S. Townroe, a well-known expert in these matters.) To-day, he says, public funds are being used to pay for houses costing from 25s. to over 40s. per foot super. That is only in accord with what noble Lords have said to-day. Four million houses have got to be built. Prices are still going up, and it is terrifying to imagine the total cost to this country of providing these houses, reasonably fit for people to live in.
  In view of the number of experts who have spoken on one feature of the problem, I had intended, after a study of the Acts and of the various pronouncements of the Government as to the subsidies which they were going to give, to calculate, and present to your Lordships the result of my figures, the enormous sum which already the various subsidies would amount to over a period of years. Instead of wearying your Lordships with my arithmetic, which would never be very enlightening, I am venturing to ask noble Lords opposite if, in due course, they will furnish the House, or furnish me separately, with an account showing what will be the result of the subsidies and other payments. I have phrased it as if it were a starred question, in two parts. The first part, which relates to permanent buildings, asks for a phased plan of expenditure by way of Exchequer payments in respect of the different types of permanent houses and flats, year by year, for the next ten years, including the annual rate fund contributions by the local authorities. I have studied the documents, and I know that the Exchequer payments vary in respect of different types of permanent houses and flats, and there are separate rate funds and contributions by the local authorities, The second part of my question is, would the noble Lord be so kind as to furnish a like phased plan, for the appropriate period, as regards Exchequer contributions, of the erection of temporary houses? I have said "appropriate period" because I am told that temporary houses are not to continue for more than ten years. For my part, I hope that the Government will be able to do without them, because they are not very satisfactory erections. The Government, I suppose, have some idea as to the period for which these houses will be necessary. I will willingly accept the estimated period, whatever it is—five or

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  ten years—and I hope the Government will tell us the amount of the contributions on these houses.
  Apart from these figures, of course, there will be the sum, which we on this side of the House can work out for ourselves, of the two totals. To this, to see what the Exchequer is being let in for, we shall have to add the number of houses in respect of which annual sums of either £22 10s. or £8 10s. a year have to be paid to the end of sixty years. We shall then know how far the Government and the local authorities are contributing, and will ultimately contribute, to the cost of the houses—2,000,000 in number in ten years—which are now being built, and which are so urgently required for the purposes of housing the people in this country. I need not say that I am far from suggesting that the case is not one which requires Exchequer contributions. The houses must be built, but it is desirable that the country should know how much the Government and the local authorities are being bound to contribute for that purpose.
  5.8 p.m.
  THE EARL OF GAINSBOROUGH: My Lords I rise to address your Lordships for the first time with a very great sense of responsibility, and I hope for the traditional indulgence which your Lordships are always kind enough to extend to those making an initial contribution to debates in this Chamber. We have heard many very good speeches this afternoon from noble Lords who are obviously experts in this field of building, and it would not be appropriate for anyone so young and inexperienced as myself to say very much at this late hour. I was very pleased indeed to hear the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Quibell, which was very interesting. He raised a point which I was going to raise myself—that of the Housing (Rural Workers) Act. I am very glad to think that I have a supporter opposite who thinks the same way as I do about this Act. It would be a great advantage, I feel, if His Majesty's Government would reconsider their decision and make this Act operative once again. It would enable many of us who would like to, to do something towards alleviating the admittedly bad conditions which exist in many of our villages, and it would enable us to recondition some of the cottages. At the same time, I do not
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  think that it would very greatly interfere with the building of new houses, because the amount of material and labour required for this type of work is much less than that needed for building new houses.
  Another point which I think is worth considering, is that we have some very fine old villages in England, and it would be a pity to spoil their character by pulling down some very nice old stone cottages which are quite habitable except that they need modernizing. I am sure the people who live in the villages would think the same way. The Housing (Rural Workers) Act, whose provisions are well known, has been spoken of a good deal. Many memoranda of evidence on its administration have been given by professional bodies like the Land Agents' Society and others, and I understand they have been submitted to the Government. If we are to retain and indeed to recruit the young men of intelligence and ability whom we very badly need in the agricultural industry, we must provide good accommodation, because, even if the men themselves do not mind living in poor cottages, their housewives will, and for that reason the young men are very often driven to seek work elsewhere.
  I should like to say that a good contribution can be made by landlords, big and small, if they use workers who are not really needed or in fact do not work in the building trade as such, to do this work. If some small financial help could be given it would make the undertaking an economic one for private people who carry out this work. It may be said that it is wrong for public funds to be used to increase the value of private property, but I do not think that it is really such a big thing when you consider how much good could be done by, if not the original Act, some similar Act in future. I hope that the noble Viscount who I understand is to reply may be able to make some statement that the Government will reconsider the matter. It has already been said much more forcibly than I can say it, by the noble Lord, Lord Quibell; so, along with him, I shall be very interested to hear if any statement is forthcoming.
  5.14 p.m.
  LORD ELTON: My Lords, I am very glad that, despite the imminence of a train which is due to take me to another engagement, I have the opportunity of

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  saying what I know all your Lordships would wish me to say, and that is how very much we have enjoyed the maiden speech to which we have just listened. Very few noble Lords can have had the opportunity of addressing this House so early in their careers as the noble Earl who has just sat down. I am sure that we are all very glad that he had the courage and enterprise to take that opportunity and that he has made such good use of it.
  For my own part, at this, by our standards, comparatively late hour, and with an engagement in the near future, I am going to venture very briefly indeed to submit to your Lordships one general consideration which has not so far figured in the course of the debate. The debate has very naturally and very properly confined itself predominantly to matters of interesting and important detail. But I hope that your Lordships will forgive me if I direct your attention for a couple of minutes to one very much more general consideration which does, I think, have a very direct relevance to our present discontents. I believe that the anti-climax of the housing programme, the startling contrast between what was hoped and what has happened, is significant of a fundamental and generally neglected dilemma which underlies the whole industrial scene to-day. We are living in a period of almost uniquely rapid transition, in what in a less happy country than ours would undoubtedly be a revolution, and we are approaching the phase of disillusionment which is inevitable in all such eras; inevitable because men will not shake themselves free of the age-old illusion which has haunted them through so many centuries, that what matters is how they organize themselves rather than how they behave. And so they start revolutions because, shall we say, they dislike Rolls-Royces, and the only result is that the Rolls-Royces are still there but are being driven by the Commissars instead of by the Grand Dukes. The process repeats itself incessantly throughout history. Men are for ever labouring to destroy old oligarchies and are for ever setting up new ones.
  At the beginning of the nineteenth century the middle-class reformers overthrew the privileged feudal oligarchy of the landlord, only to set up the privileged commercial oligarchy of the capitalist, and now in
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  the twentieth century we see the collectivist reformers engaged in overthrowing the old privilege of the capitalist, only to set up in due course the new privilege of the bureaucrat, the Party expert and the trade union boss. Against that back-ground the history of the building industry is not a very savoury one. It is perfectly true that up till the outbreak of war it was building houses very much more rapidly than under the aegis of the doctrinaire Mr. Bevan, but, if we look a little further back we see the early Victorian slum; we see the late-Victorian jerry-builder; we see the twentieth century ribbon development. We see large fortunes made out of the hideous and the unsanitary, with no regard for beauty in the countryside or for decency in the towns.
  There must have been many, many future Labour votes ensured by the record of speculative building in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. And what did the Labour propagandists say? Here I think we are approaching one of the root causes of our present troubles. Undoubtedly some of the early Socialists said what they were very fully entitled to say. They said, in effect: "Here is the jerry-builder under-paying you, his workers, piling up a fortune for himself, and cynically ignoring the interests of the nation. Because your employer has neglected his duty, do not you neglect yours. Do an honest day's work and vote for us, who stand for decent wages and eventually a planned building industry." "Our aim," many of them undoubtedly said, "is service from all and fair rewards for all." Some undoubtedly said that sort of thing, but very many—and I am afraid more—said in effect what your Lordships must be familiar with. Your Lordships may have observed that in a debate in another place only a day or two ago extracts were read from a work by one of His Majesty's present Ministers in which he said what was said by many nineteenth century propagandists—in effect that industry only benefits the boss; only a fool would be industrious; take a leaf out of the rich jerry-builder's book and yourself aim at the highest possible reward at the least possible personal sacrifice! So what to-day must the building worker, who has been brought up on that sort of past history, think as he surveys the world? In many instances

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  he sees that the men who have been telling him that industry only benefits the boss, that only a fool would be industrious, are his own bosses. He sees the vicious spiral of prices—and I may say that apart from those prices that are artificially restrained, and apart from the cost of tea in your Lordships' refreshment room, where I think the trick is done by a reduction in quality—
  SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No.
  LORD ELTON: —in quantity then, my Lords; the only price which I can think of which stands at its pre-war level is the charge of £5 for improperly pulling a communication cord in a railway carriage. With all that to shake his faith and try his temper, small wonder that the building operative clings more firmly than ever to the now well-established tradition of seeking ever higher reward for ever less effort. So you find to-day—and some of your Lordships may have seen a letter roughly to this effect in The Times last week—that a number of building firms actually find it cheaper to pay on an average £16 per week on camouflaged piece work rather than £7 a week on time work; that is to say, as several noble Lords have said previously, that the motive of service has not proved sufficient and the profit motive has had to be invoked. But the Whole nationalization programme is surely based upon the intention of suppressing the profit motive and founding the industry of the future predominantly upon that service motive which has been so progressively undermined by a good deal of the trade union propaganda of the last century.
  So it is that one of the chief bottlenecks to-day in the building industry is what is often called man-power. That is perhaps not an entirely accurate label, since man-power is usually held to denote numbers, whereas what is wrong in many areas of the industry is man-effort. I know that there are many other bottlenecks, and that there are in addition the doctrinaire interventions of the hapless Mr. Bevan. It was only last week that I had an opportunity of talking both with a small builder and with a surveyor under a local authority, and both of them said, almost in the same words, that they could build four times as fast if it were not for Mr. Bevan. But your Lordships have already dealt with the bottlenecks and to some extent with Mr. Bevan, and
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  all I wished to submit to your Lordships was that fundamentally the inevitable disillusionment that awaits us is due to the age-old tendency, repeating itself all through history, to assume that what really concerns us most is how we can organize ourselves, and that we can afford virtually to ignore how we behave. I would even go further and suggest that in the era into which we are passing it is quite possible that there is much less reason to fear doctrinaire organization based upon new fangled Socialist theories than to fear restrictive practices based upon old-fashioned trade union traditions.
  5.27 p.m.
  LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, I want to intervene in this debate only for a very short time and to support the Motion of my noble friend Lord Llewellin. My only excuse for doing so is that I spoke last March on the supply position of the services for these new houses, a matter upon which I should like to touch again very briefly to-day. Before doing so I would like to deal for one moment with the permanent housing situation in London. As many of your Lordships have done, I made a tour of the East End of London last weekend, especially of the dock areas, and I must say that I was most disappointed at the progress that has been made in the last eight months in the building of permanent houses. The building of temporary houses has developed quite considerably, and I should like to congratulate the noble Viscount, Lord Portal, and Mr. George Hicks upon introducing that scheme, which I personally have always been keen on as a temporary expedient. All over the dock areas you see these Portal bungalows and, as the noble Viscount, Lord Portal, quite rightly said, they are very comfortable inside.
  What impressed me most was that you can go for miles and miles inside the dock areas and you do not see any preparation of sites. Stepney has a very fine block of flats nearing completion, and so has Hackney. I think that is borne out by these very disappointing figures in Appendix B showing that so very little is completed. Out of 5,000 houses started in the London County Council area only 425 have been completed; in Poplar only 40 have been completed, and in Woolwich, the constituency of Mr. George Hicks, only 34

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  have been completed. In these areas you see very little preparation. If it had not been for the temporary housing programme I do not know where we would have been in the dock areas. I would like to see very much greater effort made down there.
  I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, in thinking that the private house builder is not being used sufficiently. I have taken a great deal of trouble in trying to educate myself in this. I think these contracts of local authorities are far too big; there is a lot started and very little completed. I think the small house builder should be brought in more, even if he only builds a few houses every few months. I know we want the numbers, but I think he should be brought in more in these areas to build his small number of houses. He has great experience and has done very good work in between the two wars, and I think he should be used more and in addition to the larger contractor who is contracting for local authorities. The private house builder would, of course, have to sell houses to the local authority in the proportion of four to one as laid down, but providing he is given a contract to build these houses in many cases he has got sites which are partly developed with roads and sewers already put in. I am not happy about the position in these areas, because it all ties up with the' new towns, how many people are going to be put into these new towns and the difficulty of finding sites, as they have got to go to the other side of the green belt. Anyway, a large number of houses has got to be built in these most important dock areas. One cannot move the River Thames or an important dock, although certain industries will no doubt be moved outside these areas. I think in the rural areas they are getting on fairly well and are having their fair share. I do not think the fair share is enough, but they are having their fair share and getting on pretty well in the rural areas. That is my main criticism of the London area, which I think is so very important.
  Perhaps I may deal for a few moments with the services side. The raw materials position has become much worse since I addressed your Lordships in the housing debate last March. I then asked the
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  noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, if he would give special consideration to trying to get imports of more poles for electric cables. Lord Quibell today, quite rightly so, said it was very important to get on with providing electricity and water supplies to rural houses, but I tell your Lordships in all sincerity—and it is absolutely correct—that the poles are just not available. On the 1st October last the Commissioners allowed no more poles at all to the company with which I am connected, and we cannot get on. The same thing applies to copper conductors and lead underground cables. Lead cables are in very short supply and unless we can get more supplies of them I do not know really what we are going to do. You could use concrete poles for overhead lines, but that would mean reinforcing them because you would be up against stresses and strains. You have to reinforce them with steel bars, and you then come up against the difficulty of not being able to get steel.
  I am authorized to say that in one important group of power companies they have got over a million pounds of work outstanding, in about 6,500 jobs, and if they cannot within a very few weeks get the necessary materials they will have to stand off about 1,700 men. That is a very serious thing and they have written to the Commissioners to that effect. I think we should bear in mind in relation to that, that where we can redevelop areas which have already got their services—their sewers, their electricity and their gas—we ought to do so, rather than to go on too rapidly, having regard to the shortage of raw materials, in these new virgin land sites which need a very large amount of services. With those few words I would like to support my noble friend Lord Llewellin.
  5.34 p.m.
  VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, not for the first time we have had an interesting and constructive discussion in this House on this subject. I am quite sure that not one of your Lordships will wish to hear me for any length of time on this topic. Not by any means for the first time it is my painful duty to be put up to wind up a debate on housing, and the only reason I can discover for my selection is that I have suffered much in the cause! I was extremely interested to listen to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin.

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  I quite recognize that in the course of it he made a number of very penetrating and constructive criticisms, and I am quite sure that my right honourable friends who are concerned with the actual work will value those criticisms, will be glad that he made them, and, so far as they can, will be anxious to profit by them. But behind it all the noble Lord, I know, recognizes what we are confronted with—our physical limitations in man-power and raw material.
  Meanwhile, I will content myself with dealing with one aspect of the noble Lord's speech which I could not fully understand. Noble Lords who listened to our previous discussions will remember that I was not in favour of setting targets. I always objected to setting a target for what you were going to do in this precarious business and under these exceedingly unforeseeable circumstances. At the beginning of the life of this Government I did my best to persuade my right honourable friend the Minister of Health absolutely to refuse to set a target, and he did so. I myself, being pressed in this House once or twice to state a figure, likewise obstinately refused to do so, and I think quite rightly, because there are so many factors involved that nobody can foresee what is going to happen any length of time ahead. That comment of my own is exceedingly appropriate to the imaginary target which the noble Lord blamed us for not achieving. He said the plan had been to build 220,000 permanent houses within two years of the termination of hostilities with Germany.
  LORD LLEWELLIN: I said that was the Coalition plan. I was not attributing it to the noble Viscount or to the present Minister of Health.
  VISCOUNT ADDISON: I understand that. I am quite sure that if my colleague the Minister of Health had been tempted to indulge in such folly he would have found me to be a most vehement opponent. I was not in the Coalition Government and I speak with bated breath of the great men who were. At the same time, I would say that to set a figure of 220,000 houses to be completed within two years of the termination of the war with. Germany, when you had not the remotest idea of what was going to be the position with regard to the supplies of bricks, light castings, timber and all the
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  rest of it, was an act of superlative folly. I really cannot feel any sense of guilt at the fact that this Government have not lived up to the fairy programme of the noble Lord and his colleagues of the Coalition Government. It was a fairy idea; it was not a reality.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: I must remind the noble Viscount that all the leaders of the present Government were parties to that programme.
  VISCOUNT ADDISON: That does not alter the fact that I was not a member of it. All I have to say, and I say it without a word of modification, is that it was a fairy-like idea and that it had no relation to reality. Let us take the case of bricks as an example, 220,000 houses would have required so many bricks. It was not difficult to calculate in the ordinary way what would be required. But, so far as I have ever been able to ascertain, there were no arrangements accompanying that to secure that there would be the necessary supply of bricks—none whatever. There were no arrangements made to secure the necessary supplies of baths, cisterns, drain pipes and all the rest of it. It was a fairy thing; it was a house of cards.
  LORD WOLVERTON: I do not think it is quite fair to say that about bricks.
  VISCOUNT ADDISON: I am entitled to give my view of this strange proposal. I said at the time in this House that it had no relation to reality, and it had not—none whatever. My point is that, whatever may be the criticisms to which that programme of 1944 may be quite legitimately exposed, this Government cannot be blamed for not having realized a fancy figure for which they themselves had no responsibility whatever.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: The noble Lord must allow me to interrupt him. The present Prime Minister, the present Foreign Secretary and the present Lord President of the Council were all parties to the decision which he now says was a fairy tale. What is the attitude of those members of the Government to the proposals that were put forward at that time?
  VISCOUNT ADDISON: I expect they were otherwise engaged. The fact is that as soon as this Government, which happily is concerned with reality, got down to dealing with what the problem really involved, the first decision that was

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  arrived at was that there should be no target set in advance. I put it to the noble Lord that that was one of the first things which was said in the first debate on housing in this House after the Government came in. We refused to give a target.
  LORD ALTRINCHAM: I recall that most of the Government's supporters said that this fairy-tale programme was grossly inadequate.
  VISCOUNT ADDISON: I have no doubt it was so far as meeting the needs of the community was concerned. So far as that is concerned we could put another nought at the end of it. So far as meeting the needs of the community is concerned, of course they will not be met by 220,000 houses. I should not think they would be met by a million, but it will take a long time to build them. What I am criticizing is that these houses were to be built within two years after the end of the war. Nobody knew the actual circumstances which would then exist or made the slightest provision whatever for securing the necessary licences. That is my criticism, and I do not withdraw a word of it. What I do object to is being blamed because we did not realize it when we were not parties to it.
  Having relieved my mind of that let us look at realities. While I would not under-estimate for a moment all the difficulties to which the noble Lord has referred—and particularly those mentioned by the noble Lord behind me—at the same time the achievements so far have been good ones. Let us just look at what the actual figures are. We were confronted at the end of this war by the fact that before we could start building any new houses we had to repair vast numbers of damaged houses, which was not the state of affairs after the last war. I understand that more than 4,000,000 houses in the country were damaged by enemy action. Think what that means. It subtracts all that amount of labour and materials from your new constructional work. My noble friend gave the actual figures, and they were to this effect, that the men taken away from the building trades labour supply for repairs to war-damaged houses, reconstruction of damaged houses and all the rest of it, left rather less than one-third of the total labour supply available in
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  the building industry for building new houses, which is a fact which should not be lost sight of.
  Now let us come to the state of affairs of construction on September 30. The number of permanent houses built or building was 198,000—I am leaving out the odd figures—temporary houses built or building 83,000, a total of 282,324 by September 30. In those completed there were 31,000 permanent houses and 57,000 temporary houses. Under construction at that time there were 166,000 permanent houses and 26,000 temporary houses. I must say, speaking for myself, that I think to have done that within fifteen months after the end of the war, notwithstanding our difficulties, is an exceedingly creditable performance, and nothing to be apologized for. Of course, we have got to do our best to remove the difficulties and to do better, but I must repeat that I think it may quite fairly be claimed that in comparison with the trivial showing of new building made within the first eighteen months after the last war, this is a remarkable achievement. That is true, and I say it to my own disparagement if you like—I do not mind, because it is true, that is all. Of course, there are many reasons why that should be so. At that time we had not got a local authority except in two or three of the big cities who had any surveyor staffs or had any staff which could deal with building. Even a year after the war there were still 1,000 local authorities who had not acquired any land. It was an entirely different set of circumstances; but for all that—and although what I say is to my own hurt—I think that the comparison of the first fifteen months after this war, with what was achieved after the end of the last war, shows an exceedingly remarkable achievement.
  I would like to say with what pleasure I listened to the noble Viscount, Lord Portal, and I am sure that every one of us was glad to hear him. I think we are indebted to the noble Viscount in a way that few people have yet recognized, and I would like to say so. It is true that we paid a visit together to the little standardized house nearby, and I remember myself making some criticism about it. But the thing which remained in my mind particularly was the standardization of the kitchen equipment, the convenience of the arrangements, the handiness of it all to the

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  housewife who did not have to walk far to the draining board, table or the tap because they were all quite handy. It was a very great contribution towards increasing the standard amenities of the people's houses; and whether the houses are called Portal houses or not given any name at all, we are largely indebted to the noble Viscount for making a great step forward in that respect. I recall that at the time I warned him that very likely, notwithstanding his transient popularity, he might catch it later on. Of course my own experience no doubt gave rise to my remark, but for all that I do not think that he has anything like as much to complain of as I had. However, I would like to take this opportunity of repeating that we are indebted to the noble Viscount's initiative in increasing the standardization of convenient equipment. We are indebted to him for the work he did and the equipment remains in other houses apart from those which bear his name.
  Although I was unfortunately not in my place to hear him, I would like to join in congratulating the noble Earl, Lord Gainsborough, on his maiden speech, and to say how glad I was that he expressed his solicitude for better progress of housing in rural areas which is entirely near my own heart. To a considerable extent I think we can say that the progress in rural areas has been remarkably good, and in many ways rapid, as compared with what it was in time past. I am quite sure noble Lords appreciate the rural problem just as much as I do. They know perfectly well that increased accommodation for agricultural workers is the key to the whole problem, and that we could even now get many more workers in our rural areas if there were cottages for them to live in. Nothing can overstate the urgency of this problem. It is absolutely fundamental to the supply of workers in agriculture. For the present I find that the houses built or building by rural councils for rural and agricultural workers show a total of tenders approved by local authorities of 29,478, and tenders approved for building by private builders of 15,917, making a total in rural areas up to September 30 of 45,395. That is a long, long way from what we shall need to achieve, but at the same time I think I can fairly claim that it is at least an encouraging start.
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  Some of my noble friends have asked about the action to be taken with regard to the suspension of the Housing (Rural Workers) Act. I would refer them to a statement made by the Minister of Health in another place with reference to the report that has now come in from the Committee he appointed to recommend what should be done to help in reconditioning in the place of that Act. He referred to it the other day. The Committee has already reported with certain recommendations, but that report was only received by my right honourable friend on October 18. I can assure the House it will not be very long before we become acquainted with the proposals of my right honourable friend to give further help in that direction. His Majesty's Government recognize its necessity very clearly. I do not know that I need reply to many of the other points; my noble friend Lord Henderson has dealt with them in very great detail. I should, however, like to correct one statement made, no doubt by accident, by Lord Wimborne, with regard to the number of houses still requisitioned by the Government in London. He gave the figure as 200,000 in London alone. I made inquiry, and found the actual figure. The actual figure—it is still a lot—for London is 57,572, a little more than a quarter of the figure stated, I think that correction should be mde.
  Finally, I do not think you will expect me to deal to-day with the suggestion that there should be a Ministry of Housing and Planning. It raises big questions of Governmental organization and so forth, and I do not expect that your Lordships will expect me, or wish me, at the end of this debate to say what I think on that subject. It is exceedingly complicated. It is nothing like so easy as it seems, and for my part I do not think the case for it has been anything like established. At all events, we have not that project immediately in mind. I think that having the present machinery well started we had better encourage it to press on and remove all the difficulties we possibly can with a view to getting progress made very quickly. In conclusion, I should like to thank all the noble Lords who have spoken for the constructive way they have brought the difficulties into the light, though I fancy we were painfully aware of every one of them before. I can assure the House that it is our earnest intention

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  and desire to make as rapid progress as we can in this matter of housing, for none recognizes its urgency more than His Majesty's Government.
  5.54 p.m.
  LORD LLEWELLIN: The noble Viscount who has just addressed the House started his remarks by asking why he was selected. Let me say we were all delighted, as always, to hear him address this House. I was one of those who thought he selected himself and decided whether he spoke or not from the Government Front Bench. There are two very good reasons why he should be selected. The first is that he has no responsibility whatever for the programme of the White Paper of 1945. It might have been more difficult for some of his colleagues in the Government to have taken the independent line the noble Viscount has just taken. He said it was a "fairy-like idea". The people most involved in it were the Prime Minister, the Lord President of the Council, and that fairy-like figure the Foreign Secretary. They certainly went into great detail on these things, and nobody thinks that they just chose a figure out of the blue. There were consultations between the Minister of Labour and everybody else as to whether labour could be made available. This figure was quite fairly reached after these matters had been discussed by the Government of that day. I do not happen to have been one of those directly concerned in the matter as were the Prime Minister, the Lord President and the Foreign Secretary, but I was on the fringe.
  I quite follow why this Government have not put down a target. Had they put down a target which, according to the noble Viscount, would have been less than 220,000 houses, all the supporters of the Government in another place would have said that a target had been put down which the Party had said was hopelessly inadequate at the election. It is quite clear that they were very wise not to put down a target. But I still maintain that if you want to achieve results you must know what you are aiming at. I am quite certain that was in the mind of the Minister of Works because he has stated his target. It is quite true the Minister of Health said afterwards that that was only Mr. Tomlinson's own idea. At any rate, you do want to know your target
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  when planning materials and everything else. This is the first time in my whole life I have heard of one of these overall plans, for which the present Government have so much affection, that is not based on any known target. However, that is their business and not mine.
  I must say I think we have had quite a useful debate. I was particularly glad to have elicited the statement from the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, about the amount of timber we are getting out of Germany. I am not satisfied with that amount, but I am delighted to think we are getting some. We ought to press for more out of the United States zone, and also keep our own people up to the mark in getting more cut of our zone. As Lord Quibell, to whose speech we all listened with great interest, said, these were the people who knocked down our houses and it is just as well we should have some of the timber from them to build them up again. I was also extremely pleased to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, that the anomalies in the distributive machinery are going to be looked after. I am quite certain that is where, at the moment, the difficulties will be found. Although production may be good, the distribution is bad.
  I am obliged to the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, for saying that some of the suggestions which I and other noble Lords made will be considered by the appropriate Departments. I cannot agree with him in one thing. He said he thinks the results have been unexpectedly good. I do not take it that he meant unexpectedly good having regard to the hands in which Government happens to be at present. Had he meant that, perhaps I could have agreed with him. I think it is unexpectedly bad, and we might have expected a great deal more. At any rate I shall go on hoping for a great deal more, and I shall go on pressing for a great deal more. As it is, I beg leave now to withdraw my motion.
  Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

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