Sitting of 7 March 1946

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  POST OFFICE

    Sub-Offices (Closing)
    Lieut.-Colonel Rees-Williamsasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the sub-post office at Selhurst Road, S.E.25, was closed on 30th October, 1945, thereby causing considerable inconvenience in the neighbourhood; and whether he will re-open this office without further delay.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Burke): As my Noble Friend has explained in correspondence with the hon. and gallant Member, he is anxious to reopen this sub-post office as soon as a candidate with suitable premises to offer is forthcoming. At the moment the premises offered require reconditioning, but I hope with the assistance of the local council to surmount this difficulty.
    Lieut.-Colonel Rees-Williams: Is my hon. Friend aware that the delay in reopening this sub-post office is causing considerable dissatisfaction in the district? If he cannot get anyone to take it on as a sub-post office why does he not open a post office, and staff it with permanent postal officials?
    Mr. Burke: It is not merely a question of getting someone. We have a number of applicants. It is a question of finding premises as well. That is the difficulty here.
    16. Mr. Lipsonasked the Assistant Postmaster-General if he will in future consult the appropriate local authority
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    before deciding to close a sub-post office in its area.
    Mr. Burke: No, Sir. I think the Post Office must retain full responsibility in this matter. No office is closed without a careful review of all the circumstances, including, of course, the convenience of the inhabitants of the locality affected.
    Mr. Lipson: Is my hon. Friend aware that my Question does not refer to the matter of responsibility? I asked whether he would not consult local authorities. Surely, they have the right to be consulted on a matter which affects them?
    Mr. Burke: The Post Office has to have a consistent policy, and to consult every local authority means that the policy would not be consistent.
    Mr. Butcher: Does my hon. Friend really suggest that this public service opens and closes offices without consultation with anybody?
    Mr. Burke: It is not without consultation. All the circumstances are reviewed very carefully before a decision is made.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: Is not the local authority really the best body through whom the voices of the electors can be heard? Will the Minister therefore give an undertaking to get into touch with the local authorities when these matters come up?
    Mr. Burke: I think the hon. Gentleman will agree that it would be very unlikely that a local authority would agree in any circumstances to have a post office closed down.
    Mr. Lipson: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I intend to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    Telephone Service
    Captain Francis Noel-Bakerasked the Assistant Postmaster-General when he will install the dial system at Chiswick telephone exchange.
    Mr. Burke: A new building will be needed, and I regret that I am unable to say at present when it will be completed.
    Captain Noel-Baker: Then would my hon. Friend consider increasing the staff at Chiswick telephone exchange, and would he also consider coming with me

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    to Chiswick and trying to put through two or three telephone calls? I think it might change his ideas on the subject.
    7. General Sir George Jeffreysasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the present form in which telephone accounts are issued to subscribers is drawn up in such a manner that the accounts are difficult to comprehend and compare most unfavourably with accounts rendered by ordinary business firms; and when he anticipates that it will be possible to issue these accounts in a more satisfactory form.
    Mr. Burke: No, Sir. The form in which telephone accounts are issued to subscribers has in general proved acceptable to them.
    Sir G. Jeffreys: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that accounts are rendered on a number of sheets, that the month is not entered at the head of each, nor is the total entered at the foot of each and carried on to the next sheet? Are not clarity and the convenience of subscribers at least as important as the convenience of the Post Office?
    Mr. Burke: I never find any difficulty in understanding the account. I sometimes find difficulty in paying it.
    Mr. McGovern: Is the Minister aware that these documents are very confusing? I never completely check them. I think it is better to pay them than to try to check them.
    Mr. Sutcliffe: Can the hon. Gentleman say when it will be possible to return to the quarterly basis of rendering these accounts, instead of half-yearly, as at present?
    Mr. Burke: That is a question of staff.
    Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: In the meantime, cannot the account be rendered on a single sheet instead of several? Is it necessary to have this duplication of sheets?
    Mr. Burke: They are prepared mechanically, with trunk calls and other items on separate sheets.
    Sir G. Jeffreys: If I show the hon. Gentleman one of these accounts will he examine it, and will he, I wonder, be of the same opinion after he has examined it?
    Squadron-Leader Segalasked the Assistant Postmaster-General how many new telephones were installed in Preston during 1945; how many applications for telephones were on the Preston waiting list on 31st December, 1945; and by what date he proposes to have the installation of these telephones completed.
    Mr. Burke: Just over 1,000 telephones were installed during 1945, and 1,358 applications were on the waiting list on 31st December, 1945. The average monthly figure of telephones installed had increased to 114 during the four months October, 1945, to January, 1946, and will increase further as more staff becomes available. It is not yet possible to say when the heavy arrears of work, which exist in Preston as in many other parts of the country, can be overtaken, particularly in view of the large current demand for telephone service—which in January, 1946, was double the pre-war demand. I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given on 24th January last to the hon. Member for Clay Cross (Mr. Neal) as regards the measures being taken to meet the situation.
    Mr. Osborneasked the Assistant Postmaster-General if he is aware that applications. as far back as 16th July, 1945, have been made to his Lincoln office to have a telephone installed at 64, Clifton Road, Grimsby, for the use of a national newspaper representative, to whom a telephone is necessary; and what action is he taking in the matter.
    Mr. Burke: Yes, Sir. Service would have been provided for this applicant in October last, but the work has been held up by the refusal of the Grimsby Corporation to grant consent for the erection of two poles needed to carry the wires. The Corporation has refused consent for poles required to serve other subscribers also, and the matter will be discussed with them shortly.
    Mr. Osborne: Is the Minister aware that this matter has been brought up in a sub-committee of Grimsby Corporation, and it was denied that the fault was theirs? In view of the fact that it is necessary for this man to have a telephone to earn his living, can something be done for him?
    Mr. Burke: We are most anxious to do something quickly but I can assure

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    the hon. Gentleman that the difficulty does lie in getting agreement with the Corporation.
    Mr. Kinley: Is my hon. Friend aware that it is time that these poles were done away with, and the wires put underground?
    Mr. Burke: Yes, but it is a costly and slow process.
    15. Squadron-Leader Segalasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the view, widely prevalent in certain parts of the country, that applicants for telephones who write to their Members of Parliament regarding delays in installation are placed at the bottom of the waiting list; and what steps he proposes to take to prevent the occurrence of such a practice.
    Mr. Burke: I am not aware that such an idea is widely prevalent; but in any case it is absolutely unfounded. The last part of the Question does not, therefore, arise.
    Mr. Callaghan: Will the Minister make it equally clear there is nothing to be gained by writing to Members of Parliament, otherwise we should be flooded with letters?
    Mr. Burke: Every case is judged on its merits.
    Squadron-Leader Segal: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that letters to this effect have appeared in reputable national newspapers, including the "Manchester Guardian "?
    Mr. Burke: Yes, Sir, I saw the letter and it has been replied to. I know the individual.

    Returned Letters (Surcharge)
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Assistant Postmaster-General why a letter which is returned by the post office within 24 hours is not surcharged to the sender, but when held up for a longer period the postage due for returning to the sender is demanded.
    Mr. Burke: My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. The envelope which he kindly sent me is that of a packet prepaid 1d. postage for transmission by printed paper post. Undeliverable postal
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    packets prepaid less than the minimum letter rate are invariably charged a second postage on delivery to the sender, whether returned within 24 hours or not. This has been the practice since 1895. It is of course open to the sender not to request return if the packet is undeliverable, in which case it is destroyed.
    Mr. Freeman: Will my hon. Friend inform his Post Office staff accordingly, so that they can give correct instructions to the public?
    Mr. Burke: They do give correct instructions but I think my hon. Friend is confusing this point with redirected letters, which are sent on free within 24 hours.

    Service (U.K. and Germany)
    Lieut.-Colonel Bolesasked the Assistant Postmaster - General what arrangements are in existence for postal communications between civilians in this country and German nationals in Germany.
    Mr. Burke: There is at present no civil postal service between this country and Germany. The Control Commission for Germany has, however, announced that it is hoped to introduce a restricted international postal service to and from Germany by the beginning of April. I would also call the hon. and gallant Member's attention to the reply which is being given today by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary concerning distressed persons in Germany.

    Victory' Stamps
    Squadron-Leader Segalasked the Assistant Postmaster - General what revenue he estimates will accrue from the sale of the new Victory stamps for other than postage purposes; and whether he will consider printing the design of the new Victory stamps in a wider range of colours to cover all the various denominations of stamps now in issue.
    Mr. Burke: I have no information on which I could estimate what revenue will accrue from the sale of the new Victory stamps for other than postage purposes. Having regard to our manufacturing resources and the many preliminaries involved the time available will not permit of printing and issuing the new stamps in more than two values at most, and it may not be possible to issue these simultaneously.
    Squadron-Leader Segal: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a large quantity of dollars is ready to fall into the lap of the Chancellor, if my hon. Friend will do as suggested in the second part of my Question?
    Mr. Burke: I hope that may be so.
    Mr. McGovern: Would the hon. Member say what this victory is? Is it the victory of the Labour Party at the General Election?

    Newpapers (Air Editions)
    Mr. Keelingasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether air editions of newspapers enjoy any priority over letters for the Forces.
    Mr. Burke: Newspapers prepaid at the appropriate postage for letters receive the same treatment as is accorded to letters. Otherwise they are in general forwarded by surface means.

    Postal Boundaries
    Mr. Keelingasked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a Twickenham man decorated for gallantry was described by the Service Department as of Hounslow, that being his postal address, with the result that the Twickenham columns of the local newspapers ignored him; that there are many cases throughout the country in which a post town overlaps a borough, or vice versa, to the inconvenience of the residents and the detriment of civic solidarity; and whether he intends to correct these anomalies.
    Mr. Burke: The hon. Member kindly sent me an extract from a newspaper which explains the circumstances of the case to which he draws attention. The Post Office system of sorting correspondence is based on the use of "post-towns" on which the correspondence for delivery is concentrated, the selection of these towns being designed to ensure speedy delivery. The question of adjusting postal boundaries to coincide with municipal boundaries has been considered on many occasions, but it has been found impracticable to organise postal services on the basis of municipal areas without delay to the mail.
    Mr. Keeling: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a serious grievance here? Has he not some policy over a
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    term of years for adjusting these anomalies?
    Mr. Burke: The policy is to provide post offices that will enable us to meet, as early and efficiently as possible, the requirements of the largest number of persons That may not coincide with local boundaries.

    Savings Bank Offices
    Mr. Wilson Harrisasked the Assistant Postmaster-General at how many post offices in the United Kingdom Savings Bank business is, and is not, transacted.
    Mr. Burke: Savings Bank business is transacted at 18,380 post offices in the United Kingdom. There are about 5,800 post offices at which Savings Bank business is not transacted.
    Mr. Harris: Is any attempt being made to increase the number of post offices at which Savings Bank business is transacted? Their importance in connection with the National Savings Movement is obvious.
    Mr. Burke: We are very anxious to do so, but where we only get one or two transactions in the course of a month, it is not practicable. There are 300,000 savings groups in the country selling certificates and savings stamps, and the Savings Movement is not being impeded.
    Mr. Lipson: Before closing sub-post offices is the question of Savings Bank business taken into account?
    Mr. Burke: All of these things are considered.

    Grimsby Docks
    Mr. Youngerasked the Assistant Postmaster-General what steps he is taking to provide a temporary postal and telegraph office on the docks at Grimsby, in time to handle the distribution of the increased spring landings of fish.
    Mr. Burke: Arrangements are in hand to provide a temporary post office at the Grimsby Fish Docks by the erection of huts on the site, and it is hoped that the temporary office will be ready in a comparatively short space of time.
    Mr. Younger: Does my hon. Friend appreciate that this is a matter of great

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    urgency in view of the fact that the increased spring landings are practically upon us and the allocation of the zoning system is already in operation?
    Mr. Burke: Yes, Sir. We had plans for a permanent post office. We cannot have that, so we have got some huts ready and we will put them in operation soon.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Will the hon. Gentleman see that similar arrangements are made for other fish ports, notably Aberdeen, in order to facilitate the distribution of the supply to the country? May I have an answer to that?
    Mr. Speaker: The Question referred to Grimsby.

    NATIONAL INSURANCE (LOCAL GOVERNMENT OFFICERS)
    Captain Swinglerasked the Minister of National Insurance what opportunities he is offering to local government officers with experience of administering public assistance to apply for posts in his Department for the operation of the new scheme of social insurance.
    The Minister of National Insurance (Mr. James Griffiths): I am not in a position to add to the reply which I gave on 20th February last, to the hon. Member for Lichfield (Major C. Poole), a copy of which I am sending to my hon. Friend.
    Captain Swingier: Will the Minister state whether it is a fact that several Government Departments have been circularised inviting applications for transfer, and will he offer the same opportunities to local government officers as are offered to civil servants of other Government Departments?
    Mr. Griffiths: The circular in question was issued to Government Departments to find out whether we could arrange for the members of the staff evacuated to Liverpool and Blackpool, who have been there for six years, to return to London. That is a transfer from one Department to another and does not mean a new and increased staff.

  H.M. PRISONS

    Accused Prisoners (Legal Aid)
    Mr. George Thomasasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is prepared to grant
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    prisoners legal aid when accused before visiting magistrates of offences for which severe penalties can be imposed.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): I am examining this proposal in the light of the discussion and vote which took place during the discussion of the Criminal Justice Bill in Committee in 1939 to see if it is possible to overcome the practical difficulties its adoption might occasion.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Is it not a fact that on the occasion of inquiries into such accusations, no notes are usually taken and any report made to the Home Secretary is ex post facto, and the absence of any legal advice to the accused persons opens the door to the possibility of grave injustice being done?
    Mr. Ede: No, Sir. When these cases come in front of me, I have a verbatim report of what has taken place. When I have to review any punishment which is inflicted, I have that report in front of me and I take it into consideration. The Government of the day were defeated on this matter in 1939, and I have taken that into consideration. The advisory committee on the treatment of offenders, as a matter of fact, is having this matter under active consideration at the moment.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Is the right hon. Gentleman taking any steps to revive the Bill in question?
    Mr. Ede: That will be considered when the legislation for next year is under consideration.

    Commissioners' Report
    Mr. Langasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the last Report of the Prison Commissioners was issued; and when the next Report will be published.
    Mr. Ede: The annual publication of these reports was suspended during the war, and the last published report is for the year 1938. It is proposed to publish a report, covering the years 1939 to 1944, in two parts, of which the first part, for the years 1939 to 1941, is now being printed and it is hoped will be published within the next two months.
    Mr. Lang: Could the Home Secretary tell me approximately when the second part is expected, because of the vital statistics that are in it?
    Mr. Ede: No, Sir; I think we had better get the first part out first.

    Visiting Committees
    Mr. Langasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether it is the usual practice to bring prisoners accused of breach of discipline before one visiting justice only; and if he will see that at least two justices should sit in all cases.
    Mr. Ede: The Statutory Rules provide that those offences with which the governor is not empowered to deal may be reported to the visiting committee or one of them, except in cases in which corporal punishment may be awarded, which must be heard by three members of the committee. The visiting committee is not required by the Rules to meet more than once a month, but one member of the committee visits the prison each week, and prisoners awaiting adjudication are ordinarily brought before the visiting magistrate. In present circumstances it would be difficult to arrange for two magistrates to visit every prison each week.
    Mr. Lang: Does not the Home Secretary realise that, invariably in these cases, there are conflicts of evidence between the prison officers and the accused persons, to the latter's disadvantage, and does he think the responsibility ought to rest with one justice?
    Mr. Ede: The difficulty is that, it there was a conflict on the tribunals, two justices would not be sufficient and it would be necessary to have a third. With the existing difficulties, I do not think it is possible to arrange for the visit of a sufficient number of justices each week to every prison.
    Mr. Thurtle: Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any age limit for these visiting justices?
    Mr. Ede: Not that I am aware of.

    Restricted Diet. Cardiff
    Mr. G. Thomas: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many youths under the age of 20 have been placed on a restricted diet in Cardiff prison during the last six months.
    Mr. Ede: Thirty-two, of whom some were awarded dietary punishment on more than one occasion.

    TAXICABS AND PRIVATE HIRE CARS
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, if he will obviate the difficulty of enabling taxicab men to charge increased fares at night by directing that a notice be placed in each taxicab permitting this; and if he will take such other steps as may be necessary to enable and encourage taxi-cab men to compete with uncontrolled private hire motorcars, in giving much needed service to the public.
    Mr. Ede: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling) on 7th February.
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that excessive fares are charged to the public for the hire of private hire motorcars; and if he will take' steps to control such charges.
    Mr. Ede: I would refer my hon. and learned Friend to the reply which I gave to a similar question by the hon. Member for Clayton (Mr. H. Thorneycroft) on 23rd August.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is a racket which is penalising the public who wish to use cars?
    Mr. Ede: I very much doubt if it would be possible to frame legislation that would be effective in these cases.
    Mr. John Lewis: In view of the fact that people who very often want to hire a car in an emergency only get faced with an exorbitant bill after they have already used the service, cannot the right hon. Gentleman arrange some way so that they should know the cost of the hire before they take the service?
    Mr. Ede: They should take the same precaution as I do and ask what the charge is.
    Sir Henry Morris-Jones: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Members of Parliament and others who have to catch an early morning train have to pay a sum of 7s. 6d. for car fare from the West End of London to Euston because there are no taxis?
    Mr. Ede: That is a matter for bargain between the hon. Member concerned and the proprietor of the car.
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Departmente if he will take such steps as may be necessary to increase the number of taxicabs plying for hire at night, especially at Westminster after late sittings of this House.
    Mr. Ede: I have no power to direct drivers of cabs to ply for hire at any particular place or time and in view of the varying times at which the House rises, it is unlikely that drivers will wait for uncertain periods for a single hiring in view of the continuous demand in other parts of the West End. The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis has however drawn the attention of the cab trade to the matter.
    Mr. McGovern: Whilst I do not know the Home Secretary's previous answer, I would like to ask if it would not be to the advantage of the general public if the taxidriver were permitted to charge a reasonable and special fare during certain hours of the night. Would not that act as a deterrent to the practice that is going on at present?
    Mr. Ede: The difficulty is that it would lead to very serious disputes between the owner of the car and the man who drives it, because it is not possible to show on the meter the time at which the journey was undertaken I am advised that it would lead to very considerable friction inside the trade. However, I shall be happy to consider any practical suggestions that can be made.

    NATIONAL FIRE SERVICE
    Mr. Douglas Marshallasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has now any statement to make as to the future of the N.F.S.
    Mr. Ede: No, Sir, but I hope to be in a position to make a statement before the end of the month.
    Mr. Percy Morris: Will the right hon. Gentleman confer not only with the local authorities but with the representatives of the men concerned before reaching a conclusion as to the future formation of the Service?
    Mr. Ede: I am in communication with them and have had several interviews. I hope to have another before the final announcement is made.
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the numbers of voluntary enlistment from members of the Armed Forces in the N.F.S. and its present strength.
    Mr. Ede: Up to 23rd February, 172 men in the Armed Forces and 669 men, most of whom had been recently released from the Forces under Class A, had been accepted for employment in the National Fire Service. The whole time strength of the Service on 31st January, 1946, was 31,116.
    Mr. Davies: May I ask the Minister if he is satisfied with this voluntary recruitment, and what steps he is taking to increase the intake of volunteers to the N.F.S.?
    Mr. Ede: i am not completely satisfied with the recruitment, but I think it is going as well as can be expected in all the circumstances, and it shows some sign of improvement
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now state when voluntary release from the N.F.S. will become effective.
    Lieut.-Colonel Corbettasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state the terms of release for members of the N.F.S.; and when he proposes to make this a voluntary service.
    Mr. Ede: I would refer to the reply which I gave to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) on 21st February
    Mr. Davies: Does the right hon. Gentleman recollect that, when he said the latest date, the date he had in mind was 30th April, 1946, and whether he does not think that the members of the N.F.S. deserve an early statement on this matter, so that they can decide their future?
    Mr. Ede: I stand by the statement I have previously made.
    Mr. Sparksasked the Secretary State for the Home Department if

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    considered a memorandum prepared by the Middlesex Fire Brigade authorities on the future of the fire service; and if he will make a statement upon the recommendations contained therein.
    Mr. Ede: Yes, Sir; and I hope to make a statement as to the Government's policy in regard to Fire Service organisation very shortly.
    Mr. Sparks: Would the Minister bear in mind the fact that a number of these local fire brigades were very efficiently organised and administered by some local authorities before they were transferred to the National Fire Service, and will he bear this fact in mind in giving further consideration to the matter?
    Mr. Ede: Yes, Sir, but I also have to bear in mind the fact that, in some other parts, local authorities were not very efficient in this matter.
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why men discharged from the N.F.S. for health reasons or some other honourable cause have not yet received their gratuities; and if he will arrange for these to be paid without further delay.
    Mr. Ede: The payment of National Fire Service gratuities is proceeding as rapidly as possible. It would cause delay if any attempt were made to determine the order of payments by reference to the reasons for discharge from the Service.
    Mr. Lipson: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if there is any reason why an applicant should not be paid immediately after discharge, as happens when a man is discharged from the Army?
    Mr. Ede: The amount of checking which has to be done with the man's previous employer before the service was nationalised leads to a considerable amount of delay. I am glad to say. however, that we are rapidly overcoming the difficulties which have prevented us making payments as rapidly as we should have wished.

    PEDESTRIAN CROSSINGS
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many prosecutions have been instituted in
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    the last 12 months for which figures are available, against motorists for non-compliance with the pedestrian-crossing- place regulations.
    Mr. Ede: Figures for the whole country are not available. During the year 1945, 1,248 summonses were taken out in the Metropolitan Police District for offences by motorists against the pedestrian crossing place regulations.
    Mr. Lipson: Can the right hon. Gentleman say, regarding these pedestrians, whether they have priority of passage?
    Mr. Ede: I am not called upon to give an interpretation of the law.

    SEPARATION ORDERS (ALLOWANCES)
    Major Legge-Bourkeasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he intends introducing legislation to raise the maximum allowance payable to a wife and child under a separation order, in view of the increase in wages and the cost of living.
    Mr. Ede: I cannot hold out hope of legislation on this subject at the present time.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there are cases of hardship to those who are not receiving the maximum allowance, which is £2, and would he not bear in mind the fact that it is important that some relationship should be borne between the allowance and the cost of living?
    Mr. Ede: The person aggrieved can go before the courts when the amount is below the maximum and ask for an increase.

    WOOLWICH ARSENAL (FIRES)
    Major Guy Lloydasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many suspected cases of sabotage have been brought to the notice of his Department in the past six months; and whether he has any statement to make on the recent fires at Woolwich Arsenal.
    Mr. Ede: None, Sir, but such cases would not necessarily come to the attention of my Department. I understand

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    from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply, that the recent fires at Woolwich Arsenal are at present under investigation.
    Major Lloyd: Could the Home Secretary tell the House whether all the intelligence and detective agencies available to the Home Office would be employed in such circumstances, including M.I.5?
    Mr. Ede: It would all depend what the nature of the allegation was. If I am asked by one of my right hon. colleagues to assist him in any of these matters, the resources of my Department are immediately placed at that Department's disposal.

    LOCAL ELECTIONS (POLLING STAFFS' VOTES)
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that the polling clerk and staffs at polling stations, in county council and local authority elections, who do not reside in the area covered by the polling station at which they are officiating, are prevented from recording their votes; and if he will take steps to remedy this.
    Mr. Ede: I understand that this matter will be considered by the Committee on Electoral Law Reform, of which Counsel to Mr. Speaker is Chairman.
    Sir W. Smithers: Will the right hon. Gentleman bring to the notice of the Committee that, if it is not possible for men so engaged to vote at their own polling stations, arrangements should be made for them to vote at polling stations elsewhere?
    Mr. Ede: I will see that that is brought to the notice of the Committee.
    Mr. Bowles: May I ask whether my right hon. Friend is really quite right? Surely, the Chairman of the Committee is the Parliamentary Under-Secretary to the Home Office and not Mr. Speaker.

    CHANNEL ISLANDS (VISIT PERMITS)
    Major Sir Jocelyn Lucasasked the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
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    ment if he is aware that persons born in the Channel Islands and now resident in this country, have to obtain a passport and permit to return to or visit the islands and that this passport and permit is only operative for one month; and what steps will he take to remedy this injustice.
    Mr. Ede: The present system has been retained at the request of the Insular Authorities for the reason which I explained in reply to a Question on 1st November by my hon. Friend the Member for Rothwell (Mr. T. J. Brooks). Visits are not necessarily limited to one month. The progress made in improving the conditions in the Islands is such that I hope it will very soon be possible to abolish the control of travel.

    WELSH CHURCH COMMISSIONERS
    Sir H. Morris-Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the Department of the Welsh Church Commissioners is going to be abolished.
    Mr. Ede: As I intimated in the replies which I gave on this subject on 6th and 13th December last, the life of the Welsh Church Commission has been prolonged until the end of 1946, in the expectation that this will be final.
    Sir H. Morris-Jones: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the protracted life of this body, and the consequent withholding of money due to beneficiaries, has become a matter of public concern, and will he not expedite the process of its dissolution, in view of the waste of money involved in salaries and upkeep of an expensive staff?
    Mr. Ede: I have no intention of extending the life of this Commission beyond 31st December this year, and I hope that, on that date, the hon. Member will be able to issue the death certificate.

  ALIENS

    British Women's American Husbands
    Major Wyattasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why permission is not granted for Americans

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    who have married British women to stay in this country if they so desire and can find employment; and, in particular, why William H. Lang of the U.S. Army is not permitted to remain, although he can find employment, and there are compassionate grounds on which permission might be granted.
    Mr. Ede: Marriage to a British woman is not in itself a sufficient reason for allowing an Allied soldier to settle and seek employment in this country. In the case to which my hon. Friend refers, in view of the circumstances entitling him to compassionate treatment, if an application for discharge in the United Kingdom is submitted through the proper military channels, I should be prepared to consider it sympathetically to enable the man to be here on a temporary basis.
    Captain Noel-Baker: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that a good deal of ill-feeling was generated in the United States, not only by the difficulties put in the way by his Department of Americans wishing to settle here but also by the difficulties experienced by American husbands of British women coming to this country to visit their wives?
    Mr. Ede: With regard to the first part of the question, I cannot admit that there is a grievance. With regard to the second part, I am always prepared to consider cases where reasonable ground can be shown for temporarily admitting a United States citizen.
    Mr. Nicholson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a good deal of reciprocal feeling caused by the fact that affiliation orders have been made against American soldiers which cannot now be enforced?

    Distressed Persons (Admission to U.K.)
    Mrs. Ayrton Gouldasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether he is now able to make any further statement about the arrangements for the admission to this country of distressed relatives in Germany and Austria.
    Wing-Commander Hulbertasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is yet in a position to state when machinery is likely to be set up to
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    deal with applications from distressed persons in Germany and Austria who have relatives able and willing to look after them here, and who desire admission to this country.
    Mr. Ede: Arrangements have now been made for dealing with applications regarding distressed persons in Germany and Austria who fall within the scheme which I announced. I will circulate a detailed statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the Statement:
    Special arrangements have been made to enable relatives in the United Kingdom to send letters of invitation to distressed persons in the British, French and United States Zones of Germany who are eligible for admission to the United Kingdom under the Scheme announced to the House on the 13th November last.

    1.When the whereabouts of the relatives in Germany have been ascertained, either through the British Red Cross or by other means, the letter of invitation which should show that maintenance and accommodation are available should be placed in an envelope addressed to the distressed person at the last known address in Germany. The normal postal address should be used but no postage stamp should be affixed to this envelope. The letter should then be placed in a second envelope addressed to Head quarters, 700 Control Unit, B.A.O.R. Postage at the rate of 3d. for a one ounce letter should be pre-paid on this cover.

    2.As regards Austria, to which country a restricted postal service is now functioning, the letter of invitation should be sent direct to the normal postal address of the distressed person.

    3.Where the host in this country is himself here as a refugee it would facilitate the work of the Passport Control Officers in judging whether the conditions prescribed in the Distressed Persons Scheme are fulfilled, if the host communicated with the Refugee Committee in Bloomsbury House to which he is known for the purpose of obtaining their advice about the particulars to be included in the letter of invitation. It may often be helpful that the letter of invitation should be accompanied by documentary evidence as to the ability of the host in the United Kingdom to provide accommodation and maintenance for his relatives.

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    4.Persons in Germany receiving such invitations if they fall within the prescribed categories should apply for visas and exit permits not directly to the Passport Control Officer at Lubbecke but through the nearest Military Government Detachment in the British Zone. Persons in Austria should apply direct to the Passport Control Officer at Vienna.

    5.There is great pressure on the very limited transport facilities and it may be some while before a distressed person can make arrangements for his journey. The granting of a visa by the Passport Control Officer will not mean that transport facilities are available.

    NORTHERN IRELAND (TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS)
    Dr. Littleasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now take steps to ensure that the remaining restrictions on travel between Great Britain and Northern Ireland are entirely removed, and the freedom of travel restored between Northern Ireland and other parts of the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Ede: The sooner restrictions of this kind can be relaxed or abandoned the better pleased we all shall be, but as the hon. Member knows there are still reasons for the modified form of control now in operation.
    Dr. Little: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an approximate date when these tiresome regulations will come to an end, as that would be cheering news to the public?
    Mr. Ede: I hesitate to prophesy.

    PENSIONS AND GRANTS
    Mr. Moyleasked the Minister of Pensions if he is aware of the complaints made by disabled ex-Service men and women against the delay experienced on the determination of pensions claim by the appeal tribunals; and will he take steps to expedite the hearing of such appeals by the tribunals concerned.
    The Minister of Pensions (Mr. Wilfred Paling): The Lord Chancellor and I have this matter under constant review and the steps already taken have reduced the period elapsing between the lodging and hearing of an appeal. I can assure the
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    hon. Member that everything possible is being done to expedite the hearing of appeals by the Tribunals
    Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: In view of the number of cases waiting to be heard —and many have been outstanding for as long as 18 months—cannot the right hon. Gentleman give some more encouraging reply as to the length of time that will elapse?
    Mr. Paling: We started with a huge number of arrears and we are faced with two difficulties—the insufficiency of tribunals and the lack of skilled staff. I am pleased, however, to say that we have 23 tribunals operating and that we are reducing arrears by over 200 a week.
    Mrs. Leah Manning: Would it not be easier to accept the principle, "Fit for service, fit for pension ''?

    CO-OPERATIVE WHOLESALE SOCIETY
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of further details which have been sent to him, which show the magnitude of the vested interests of their combine, he will reconsider his decision and nationalise the Co-operative Wholesale Society and all its branch organisations and activities.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): No, Sir.
    Sir W. Smithers: In spite of the pledges given at the General Election to control vested interests, is it not true that the right hon. Gentleman dare not offend such a powerful supporter of the Socialist Party?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I think the hon. Gentleman should study the Co-operative movement, when he would find that it is controlled by a large number of consumers on a non-profit making basis. His conception of a dangerous vested interest seems to be quite extraordinary.
    Sir W. Smithers: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this great vested interest is squeezing out small traders all over the country, and is supporting the Socialist Party with its funds?
    The Prime Minister: Everybody is aware of the political conditions applying to co-operative societies, but I under-

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    stood that the hon. Gentleman was a strong supporter of competition
    Mr. Jennings: Is the right hon. Gentleman quite accurate in saying that the Co-operative movement is a non-profit making movement?
    Mr. Stokes: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether the remarks made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Chislehurst do not apply to the late Government in their dealings with the landlords who had the most appalling monopoly of the nation?
    Mr. Speaker: We have been discussing this question long enough.
    Sir W. Smithers: May I correct the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) and inform him that I am not the hon. Member for Chislehurst?

    GREAT BRITAIN (FINANCIAL AND ECONOMIC POSITION)
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Prime Minister if he will set up a Royal Commission on the lines of the May Committee presided over by an independent chairman at which evidence can be taken on oath and the proceedings open to the public to inquire and report to this House on the financial and economic position of Britain and to make recommendations as to where economies should be made.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
    Sir W. Smithers: In view of the Prime Minister's appeal for increased production and more work, would it not be a good thing for the public to have the independent opinion of an independent committee about the financial and economic position of the country?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I do not think that the May Committee was a useful device, and I would also point out to the hon. Gentleman that it was not a Royal Commission, that it did not take evidence and that its proceedings were not open to the public.
    Sir W. Smithers: What I am asking the right hon. Gentleman is whether we can have some facts without party bias.
    The Prime Minister: The House and the country have been given abundant facts, and I do not think that the method of the May Committee was a particularly good way of establishing the facts.
    Mr. McGovern: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to make sure that no committee similar to the May Committee will be set up, because it was a convenient way of getting rid of the last Labour Government?
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Prime Minister if he is aware that facts and figures of our essential requirements are openly published in the U.S.A.; and if he will give an assurance that all facts and figures in this connection given to the U.S. Government will also be made available if called for to Members of this House.
    The Prime Minister: I am aware that some information of this kind has been published in the United States; but I regret that I cannot give the assurance for which the hon. Member asks in the second half of his Question. In the course of negotiations with the United States Government there are bound to be exchanges of secret information which it would be against the public interest to publish at the time.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the Prime Minister aware that in one specific case the petroleum consumption figures for the period, which were denied to us in Parliament, were announced in the United States and published openly in all sections of the Press; and can he say why the House of Commons has been denied this information which is available to the American public? It would seem that there is discrimination against Parliament.
    The Prime Minister: I am not aware of the incident mentioned by the hon. Gentleman and perhaps he will send me particulars of it. Obviously, if secret information is sent across to another country, I cannot be responsible for its being divulged there
    Mr. De la Bère: Is it not a fact that we cannot get statistics, figures or information here? I do not think the Minister was right in saying last night that we were given everything we asked for.

    GERMANY

      Food Pool, Berlin
      Major Guy Lloydasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how much food contributed by this country to the Berlin food pool has failed to reach its destination; and if he will state the reasons for such failure.
      The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. John Hynd): All this food has reached its destination except for very small quantities pilfered in transit.
      Major Lloyd: Does the hon. Gentleman repudiate the suggestion published in the Socialist paper "Forward ", that 11 trainloads of valuable foodstuffs have disappeared on their way through the Russian Zone in Berlin?
      Mr. Hynd: I have not seen the statement, but it is entirely contrary to the official record.

      Coal Control
      Mr. De la Bèreasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to what extent the cost of operations of the North German Coal Control are borne by the British Government; and in what way will reimbursement be made by the countries to which the coal produced by the British Control is sent.
      Mr. J. Hynd: Only the sterling element in the pay of the staff of the Control Commission will be a final charge on the Exchequer. Exports of German coal are being invoiced at a price which allows for the normal exporters' services performed by the Control.
      Mr. De la Bère: Can the hon. Gentleman tell me when the payments will be made? Apart from the invoices, is there no system whereby settlement will be made before the coal is delivered?
      Mr. Hynd: Certainly, Sir. These arrangements are now in operation, and payment is made in the form of imports which are going to Germany.
      Mr. De la Bère: Is it true that no payments have as yet been made?
      Mr. Hynd: It certainly is not true.

      Food Situation
      Mr. Michael Footasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what imports of wheat and other foods are
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      likely to be made into the British zone in Germany in the next few months; and whether he estimates that further cuts in rations in this zone are likely to be imposed.
      Mr. J. Hynd: The allocation of the world's grain supplies is about to be reviewed in Washington. There are many claimants, and until the results of the conversations in Washington are known I am not in a position to say what amounts will be available for the British zone of Germany or whether further ration cuts will be necessary.
      Mr. Foot: Can the hon. Gentleman confirm the statements which appear to have come from the British headquarters in Berlin that there is likely to be another cut after 20th March, reducing the number of calories provided for the German people in the British zone to less than 500? Can he also confirm the statement in the Press this morning attributed to Field-Marshal Montgomery, that this will now reduce the standard of diet for people in the British zone to less than that provided for the inmates of Belsen concentration camp?
      Mr. Hynd: I am not aware of the exact statements to which the hon. Member refers. I can only assume that these would be based upon what the position would be if no further imports were forthcoming, but there is a further Question on this subject on the Order Paper.
      Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Is my hon. Friend aware that if any part of the geographical centre of Europe is allowed . to lapse into a state of chaos, moral or spiritual, the clock of civilisation throughout the whole continent of Europe will be put back for years?
      Mr. Hynd: The recognition of these facts is precisely one of the main reasons for our present occupation of Germany.
      Mr. Stokes: Is my hon. Friend aware that the reduced ration will mean that these people will have to live on a couple of slices of bread and margarine and a spoonful of oatmeal per day, and will he bear that fact in mind in resisting any further efforts to reduce the ration?
      Mr. Hynd: Whatever the result, the ration must bear relation to the amount of food available.
      Sir Stanley Reed: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in India the ration has been cut down to 12 ounces per day, and that no other sources of food are available or suitable to the people of that country?
      Mr. Hynd: That is rather outside the scope of my Department. I do not think the latter part of the question is entirely correct.
      Mr. Footasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he has any statistics showing the degree to which the British zone in Germany was self-supporting in food supplies before 1932; and to what extent food was imported into the area now described as the British zone from the area comprised by the Soviet zone, the United States zone and the eastern territory of pre-war Germanyceded to Poland and the U.S.S.R.
      Mr. J. Hynd: The population of the British zone is preponderantly urban, and before the war this area was deficient in food supplies to about 50 per cent. Grain and potatoes were largely drawn from eastern Germany. In reply to the second part of the Question, I regret that statistics are not available as the present zones of occupation did not constitute recognised political or economic units in prewar Germany.
      Mr. Foot: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether any approach has been made to the Soviet Government for the purpose of rectifying this injustice which the British zone has to bear in feeding a population which previously could not feed itself, and can he also confirm the statement that food is being sent from the British zone to Berlin to feed the people there?
      Mr. Hynd: The feeding of Berlin is on a pooling basis, and we have to make our contribution so far as that city is concerned. In regard to the other part of the question, that will be answered with another Question.
      Mr. Stokes: Can my hon. Friend tell the House what effect the increased population in the British zone, due to forcible expulsion, has had on the necessity for importing food into that zone in order to feed the people there?
      Mr. Hynd: Up to the moment, practically none, because the transfer of population under the agreed scheme from Poland
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      into the British zone has only begun in very small numbers and has not yet shown any effect.
      Mr. Footasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what scale of imports was necessary to hold the rations in the British zone in Germany at the level prevailing before the recent cuts; and when the decision to make the cuts was reached.
      Mr. J. Hynd: To maintain distribution on the basis of the previous 1,550 calories ration from 1st January to 30th June, 1946, indigenous resources of the British zone would require to be supplemented by imports of about 1,500,000 tons of wheat. During February it became clear that wheat imports on this scale would no longer be available and, since German indigenous resources are only sufficient to provide about 400 calories, it was decided during the last week in February that an immediate cut in the existing ration scale was inevitable.
      Mr. Foot: Could my hon. Friend say who makes these decisions about the cuts? Is it a decision made by, the British Government, or is it reached partly in conjunction with other members of the Combined Food Board? How was the decision reached to make the cut? Was it a British decision or was it reached in conjunction with other nations?
      Mr. Hynd: No, Sir. The decision with regard to the British zone was a unilateral one, and it was made on my own responsibility.
      Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Is my hon. Friend aware that thousands of people in this country are seriously disturbed to think that their fellow human beings in Germany are getting into a state of distress because of shortage of food, and they would gladly welcome further sacrifices in order to help these people?
      Mr. Stokes: Do my hon. Friend's figures mean that two thirds of the intended ration—that is, one thousand calories a day, on his figures—have to be imported from outside; and may I ask him whether more than that amount did not normally come from the zone now occupied by the Russians?
      Mr. Hynd: As I stated earlier, it is impossible to assess the exact amount that

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      came into our zone from what is now the Russian zone in Germany, and the amount that came from other sources, but the total imports of food into our zone from all sources were about 50 per cent. of those before the war.
      Mr. Foot: Reverting to the hon. Gentleman's original reply, while appreciating his great difficulties in having to impose these cuts, may I ask if he does not think that this is a matter which should be discussed by the Combined Food Board, if the Combined Food Board means anything at all? These matters should be decided by all the nations, and should not be left to the British Government to settle by itself.
      Mr. Hynd: I said that the cuts had been made on my own responsibility, but the allocations of wheat to Germany, India and other claimants are made by the Combined Food Board, who are at present being asked to consider the general situation and to make the best possible allocations among the various claimants.
      Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether any arrangements will be made to improve the food position in the British zone of Germany by securing help from the Low Countries and from Denmark.
      Mr. J. Hynd: Full use is already being made of any surplus foodstuffs which become available in the Low Countries and Denmark after the needs of the United Kingdom and the liberated countries have been met. The ultimate surpluses available in this way are, however, very small.
      Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he has any statement to make about the development of a unified policy for feeding Germany.
      Mr. J. Hynd: The food situation in Germany has been discussed by the Allied Control Council in Berlin. Our representative expressed his readiness to participate in arrangements for pooling resources and establishing a common ration throughout Germany. It is not, however, to be expected that even if our Allies were agree able, the immediate situation could be appreciably relieved merely by redistribution. The stocks in all four zones are low and, in any event, it is not likely that the available means of transport would enable inter-zonal transfers to be
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      made on a considerable scale. We are, however, pursuing this and every other possibility of ameliorating the position.
      Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Could the hon. Gentleman say whether it would not be a very good idea if the influx of new personnel into the British zone could be suspended temporarily in order to relieve the difficulties of the food position in that zone?
      Mr. Hynd: The influx to which my hon. Friend presumably refers is a transfer from Poland. That was agreed by the British Control authorities together with the other parties on the Control Council. That could only be altered in any way by a four-party agreement.
      Mr. Stokes: Might not this position be relieved immediately very considerably by reducing our own reserves by about 1,200,000 tons, which would leave us with double the reserves we had before the war started?
      Mr. Hynd: I am afraid my responsibility begins at the resources that are made available and I have to make the best possible use of them.

      Political and Trades Union Activities
      Mr. Skeffington-Lodgeasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he is in a position to make a statement about the development of political parties and trade unions in the British zone of Germany.
      Mr. J. Hynd: The three chief political parties are now active throughout the zone and participating in the local German administration that has been set up pending elections. They are also playing their part in the German denazification committees that are being established to assist the Control Commission. Trade unions, too, are rapidly developing. In the North Rhine province a scheme has been put forward for 32 trade unions covering all industries; 29 have already been approved.
      In Westphalia and Hanover there are no co-ordinated schemes but many unions are developing. In Hamburg there are 13 trade unions, with an aggregate membership of 120,000. Delegations from the T.U.C. and from the world federation of trade unions have recently visited the zone. The political parties and trade

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      unions are also represented on the German Zonal Advisory Council which held its inaugural meeting yesterday.
      Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Would my hon. Friend do all he possibly can to ensure that these trade unions and political parties, which we are glad to note are under way in the British zone, develop without fear or favour?
      Mr. Hynd: That is part of the policy of the administration of the British zone.
      Mr. Julius Silverman: Is my hon. Friend proposing to place any newspaper facilities at the disposal of the political parties?
      Mr. Hynd: Yes, Sir. That development is now under way, and already a zonal newspaper under German control is being established in Hamburg. We have also, I believe, already launched some of the first political independent German newspapers.
      Mr. James Hudson: Has my hon. Friend seen the statement that the Social Democratic Party constituted in Germany is much more in need of food than of paper in order to make their development possible?

    AUSTRIA (POLITICAL DISCRIMINATION)
    Mr. William Teelingasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he is satisfied that the present Government of Austria, operating under the authority of the Inter-allied Council, is not violating its pledge not to discriminate against Austrian citizens because of their race and political beliefs, by imprisoning resistance leaders, dissolving monarchist organisations and forbidding all peaceful and democratic monarchist propaganda.
    Mr. J. Hynd: It may from tune to time be necessary for the Austrian Government, under the guidance of the Allied Council, to take action against persons or organisations engaged in activities inimical to the growth of a healthy democracy I have no reason to suppose that the Austrian Government acts in these matters otherwise than in good faith and in accordance with the policy of the Allied Council.
    Mr. Teeling: In view the fact that large numbers of these people have been put in prison, and that only a few months ago we had an election with the idea of starting a new Constitution, does not the hon. Gentleman think it possible that it is our job to pay some attention to this matter as it does come under our authority?
    Mr. Hynd: The tact that certain leaders have been arrested indicates fairly clearly that we have paid some attention to the matter. I do not agree that there is evidence to show that large numbers have been arrested. In fact, certain of the leaders were arrested in connection with the recent illegal movement of the Hapsburg representatives into Austria These are the only arrests of which I have any information.
    Mr. Warbey: Is it not a fact that the law of the Austrian Republic forbids the conducting of Hapsburg propaganda?
    Mr. Hynd: The law of the Austrian Republic at the moment is, of course, subject to the control of the Allied Council.

  DEMOBILISATION

    Agricultural Workers
    Mr. Turtonasked the Minister of Labour whether he will give an assurance that workers in the Forces who express a wish to go back to agriculture will be granted immediate release in view of the present emergency.
    The Minister to Labour (Mr. Isaacs): The Service Departments are already offering Class B release under the block scheme to all agricultural workers who are releasable and have served a minimum of one year in the Forces.
    Mr. De la Bère: Why is it that in general the Government are quite unable to provide a supply of agricultural workers, in face of the desperate food situation throughout the country?
    Mr. Isaacs: I have not the slightest idea what that supplementary question has to do with the Question on the Order Paper.
    Mr. De la Bère: It has to do with the failure of the Government.

    Students
    Mr. Champion: asked the Minister of Labour if he will include law students in Class B for out of turn releases from the Forces.
    Mr. Isaacs: Law students in the Forces are eligible for release in Class B if they are applied for by their universities and are holders of scholarships gained in open competitions and are in Release Groups 1–49. The question of further releases in Class B is under consideration, but I am unable to say yet what further categories can be included in such releases.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Mine Ballotees (Trade Union Membership)
    Major Lloydasked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to protect young men conscripted into the mines from being intimidated into joining the National Union of Mineworkers.
    Mr. Isaacs: I am not aware that these young men joining the National Union of Mineworkers do so as a result of intimidation and no action on my part is called for.
    Major Lloyd: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree there is some evidence to the contrary? Would he endorse the statement of his predecessor to the effect that there is no compulsion whatever upon "Bevin boys" to join the National Union of Mineworkers?
    Mr. Isaacs: I am not at all aware of the first part of the hon. and gallant Member's question. I have no reason to make any comment upon the second part.
    Major Lloyd rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Mrs. Castle.
    Major Lloyd: On a point of Order. I asked a direct question, whether the Minister would endorse a statement but he did not answer that question; he evaded it.
    Mr. Speaker: He answered the question, and I called the next Question.

    Training (Building Trades)
    Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Labour how many men in the Blackburn area are at present on his Department's
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    waiting list for training courses in carpentry and joinery; what facilities for these courses are now available in the area; and what steps an being taken to expand them
    Mr. Isaacs: There are seven men in the Blackburn area awaiting training in carpentry and joinery. There are five training centres in Lancashire in which training in carpentry is now being given at Accrington, Amtree, Manchester, Pendleton and Wallasey. In addition, new centres for training in building trades are being built at Liverpool, Denton and Radcliffe (Manchester) and Preston.

    Sports Meetings (Production)
    Squadron-Leader Donnerasked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the decision of a Ministry of Labour Court of Appeal in the case of seven employees of Henry Hughes & Son, Limited, of Ilford, in which the men dismissed for stopping production in the middle of the week to go to a football match were reinstated, with full pay for the time during which they have been idle since their dismissal; and if, in view of the importance of keeping up full production, he will reconsider this decision and reverse it.
    Mr. Isaacs: I am making inquiries and I will write to the hon. and gallant Member.
    Squadron-Leader Donner: Does not the Minister agree that incidents of this character make a mockery of any appeals to produce more?
    Mr. Isaacs: No, Sir. I would say this, that if this Question had been put down on the Order Paper before yesterday, I might have been able to give an answer and perhaps avoided that Question.

    MILITARY SERVICE (STUDENT TEACHERS)
    Mrs.Castleasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that teachers' training colleges are closing their lists for next autumn's intake before would-be new students have had their medical examinations for national service to ascertain whether or not they will be eligible for deferment; and if he will arrange for such students to be medically

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    examined in advance of their registration under the National Service Acts where they so desire.
    Mr. Isaacs: I am aware of the position but am having it further examined.
    Mrs. Castle: Is the Minister aware that this matter is very urgent, because some of these training colleges are closing their lists this month? Will he bring his sympathetic mind to bear on it as quickly as possible?
    Mr. Isaacs: Yes, Sir. I think there is a case here worthy of reconsideration.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Eden: Could the Leader of the House tell us the Business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Yes, Sir.
Monday, 11th March —Committee stage of the Civil Supplementary Estimates contained in House of Commons Paper No. 74 which was available on 19th February. We shall begin with the Estimates in Class II. Second Reading of the Patents and Designs Bill (Lords). Consideration of Lords Amendments to the Furnished Houses (Rent Control) Bill and Building Restrictions (Wartime Contraventions) Bill, and, if there is time, Statutory Instruments Bill.
Tuesday, 12th March—Supply (4th allotted day); Committee, Consideration of Air Estimates, 1946, Vote A, Vote on Account and Air Supplementary Estimate, 1945.
Wednesday, 13th March—Further progress will be made with the Miscellaneous Financial Provisions Bill and Public Works Loans Bill. Report stage of outstanding Supplementary Estimates, and Report and Third Reading of the Police Bill.
Thursday, 14th March—Supply (5th allotted day); Commitee, Consideration of Army Estimates, 1946, Vote A, Vote on Account and Army Supplementary Estimate, 1945.
Friday, 15th March—Second Reading of the India (Central Government and Legislature) Bill (Lords) and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Motions to approve the proposed Orders to be made under the Government of India and the Government of Burma Acts. We hope to dispose of this Business in a reasonable time, and afterwards it is proposed to move the Adjournment of the House in order to give an opportunity for a Debate on the Cabinet Mission to India.
Mr. Clement Davies: In view of the very serious situation in various parts of the world, particularly Europe and India, owing to the food shortage, which seems to be getting much worse than was anticipated, would the Leader of the House consider giving another day for consideration of this very serious situation?
Mr. Morrison: That could be considered through the usual channels, either for a Supply Day or otherwise. We have, of course, had two or three general Debates on the matter, I admit limited in time, and a recent Debate on the food issue. We will consider the point.
Mr. Lang: May I ask the Leader of the House if he seriously intends to take the Report stage and the Third Reading of the contentious Police Bill, being the last in order on Wednesday? Is he not aware that many hon. Members on these benches must oppose that Bill, as it now stands, most Strenuously?
Mr. Morrison: I hope we shall not get on to a crisis. If my hon. Friend examines the business I think, as we anticipate, the early business may not take a great deal of time. We think the time will be adequate. The Bill has had a very thorough examination in Committee upstairs and I think reasonable time will be afforded.
Mr. W. J. Brown: May I repeat a question which I put to the Leader of the House last Thursday, and ask him when the Government anticipate bringing in the Bill to modify the provisions of the Pensions (Increases) Act, 1944, relating to retired State servants? I was told last week he would give me a reply today.
Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir, but I am afraid I am in no position to give an undertaking about legislation on that subject.
Mr. Brown: In view of the fact that we were promised consideration as long ago as before the Christmas Recess, may I

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ask the Government to indicate when we are likely to get this Bill, because very grave hardship is being suffered by many people?
Mr. Morrison: I understand that the Government are not committed on the matter, and therefore I am not in a position to give any undertaking at all. I think it would be best if the hon. Member were to communicate with the Minister concerned, who will presumably be the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. Brown: I have been communicating with the Minister for months. I want something to happen.
Mr. Henderson Stewart: Will the right hon. Gentleman indicate whether the House will have an opportunity of concluding its consideration of the Government's Motion on agricultural policy, and reaching a decision on the matter?
Mr. Morrison: That is a good joke. I have a sense of humour—
Mr. De la Bère: We do not want jokes about food.
Mr. Morrison: It was not the fault of the Government that no conclusion was reached. We are perfectly happy; we are quite sure that the agricultural policy—
Mr. De la Bère: We are not happy.
Mr. Morrison: I think the hon. Gentleman really is happy. The Government are quite confident that the policy of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture has the support of the House, but as the Opposition did not wish the House to reach a decision, that is all right; we cannot help it.
Mr. Bowles: Can the right hon. Gentleman now state when the Bill to nationalise the civil airlines will be introduced, and whether it is being held up by negotiations for the purchase of assets from the old services which he mentioned recently in reply to a question?
Mr. Morrison: Obviously some discussions are proceeding. The preparation of the Bill is making progress, but I am not in a position to give a date.
Mr. Stokes: Referring to the point raised by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Daviss), will my right hon. Friend the
510
Leader of the House, in considering this matter, take full notice of the very serious statement made by Field-Marshal Montgomery a day or so ago, which revealed a state of things which ought to have been revealed in the last food Debate and was not, and which this House ought to have the opportunity of discussing at the earliest possible date?
Mr. Morrison: I do not think there was any secret about the difficulty of the situation as regards food supplies in Germany. Certainly we are taking into the fullest account the view of Field-Marshal Montgomery, and we will see what can be done, but I am not in a position to give an undertaking about a Debate at the present time.
Sir W. Smithers: In order to assist the Prime Minister in his production drive, will the Government introduce a Bill soon to ensure that the Minister of Fuel and Power, in regard to coal production, and the Minister of Health, in regard to houses, will be paid by results?

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY.
  [3RD ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]

NAVY ESTIMATES, 1946

  NUMBERS
  Resolved:
  " That 490,000 Officers, Seamen, Boys and Royal Marines be employed for the Sea Service together with 2,800 Royal Marine Police, borne on the books of His Majesty's Ships and at the Royal Marine Divisions, for the year ending on the 31st day of March, I947."

  VOTE ON ACCOUNT
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  " That a sum, not exceeding £150,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the charges for Navy Services which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1947."

  MR. A. V. ALEXANDER'S STATEMENT
  3.58 p.m.
  The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. A. V. Alexander): When I addressed the House a year ago as a member of the Coalition Government, I suggested that, as a result of political events in the coming year, I might not stand again at this Box as First Lord in that type of Government. The qualification about '' that type of Government" showed perhaps greater foresight than I then realised. I come before the Committee in this first year of peace, with feelings of pleasure and gratitude on behalf of the Service with which it has been my fortunate lot to be associated for many years—years of peril and years of glory. I think that it would be the wish of the Committee

  531
  that on this first peace time occasion, I should give at least a short account of the part played by the Royal Navy in the second World War.
  For the Navy there was no period of "phoney" war. The war at sea began the very first night with the sinking of the "Athenia" by a German U-boat in the Atlantic. In the first fortnight, 27 British merchant ships of 131,000 tons were sent to the bottom by U-boats. In the early weeks we lost the Aircraft Carrier "Courageous" and the Battleship "Royal Oak." Within three months of the outbreak of the war, the Germans launched the first of their "secret weapons," the magnetic mine. This had some success at first. Ports were closed; shipping had to be diverted, transport was impeded. The Navy did not fail to counter these early strokes, just as it did not fail to counter later and more weighty attacks. Thus, the first two convoys were organised and sailed four days after the outbreak of war. The Navy's counter-offensive against the U-boats soon took effect and the loss of British ships fell sharply. A combination of gallantry and skill disclosed the secrets of the magnetic mine, and the ingenuity of scientists and the devoted work of craftsmen produced the antidote. The magnetic mine soon ceased to be a serious menace, though it was later to be followed by acoustic and other ingenious forms of this weapon which required similar efforts to overcome and, at all times, the gallant and arduous work of our minesweepers.
  Before the end of 1939, the "Admiral Graf Spee" had scuttled herself in the River Plate, after an action with British cruisers which showed beyond doubt that none of the British genius for fighting at sea had been lost between the wars. In 1940 Germany invaded Norway. Whatever the success of her military strategy, she suffered considerable losses at sea. Eleven of her destroyers were wiped out at Narvik, "Blucher" was sunk in Oslo Fjord, the "Konigsberg" was sunk by the Naval Air Arm, the "Karlsruhe" by a British submarine, the "Hipper" was damaged by H.M.S. Glowworm and the "Scharnhorst" and the "Admiral Scheer" received serious damage. The Royal Navy also suffered losses, but of far less importance. During this year, the war against British, Allied and neutral
  532
  merchant shipping intensified. In the quarter following the fall of France, we were losing merchant ships at the rate of over 14,000 tons a day. Here was the greatest peril at sea, the peril which never greatly diminished until the middle of 1943, the peril which, at times, threatened to engulf our whole cause. The year 1941 was one of bitter struggle. In the Mediterranean the Fleet under Admiral Sir Andrew Cunningham, as he then was, fought a fearful battle against great odds. Just after he had gained a brilliant and crushing victory over the Italian Fleet at Cape Matapan it fell to the Navy's lot to withdraw our military forces first from Greece and then from Crete. These tasks were carried out against concentrated air attacks, and, inevitably, there were grievous losses. Admiral Cunningham has described the conflict during the year as some of the hardest fighting at sea on record.
  Meanwhile, the war against merchant shipping was severe. Between March and May we lost over 18,000 tons a day. There was a fall in the losses in the middle of the year, but by the end of 1941, after the entry of Japan into the war, we were again losing over 16,000 tons a day. Nevertheless, at the end of the year we could claim that the German main units were held. The full resources of our escort forces and of Coastal Command of the Royal Air Force were engaged in the Battle of the Atlantic. Regular convoys were carrying supplies to North Russia. We were in full control in the eastern basin of the Mediterranean. The Home Fleet under Admiral Sir John Tovey had sunk the "Bismarck." In the Far East, on the other hand, we had suffered a cruel and temporarily crippling blow in the loss in a single day of the "Prince of Wales" and the "Repulse," and control in the Pacific and in the Malayan Archipelago was rapidly passing into the hands of Japan. So the battle continued year by year, relentless and unceasing. It was a battle of ups and downs, and at times our affairs looked black indeed. For the greater part of 1942, the losses of Allied and neutral merchant shipping, now world wide, averaged well over 20,000 tons a day. The rate of loss of British tonnage was more than any maritime nation could sustain indefinitely, or indeed for long.

  533
  But in every month that passed, we were gathering the strength and the forces to counter the enemy's attacks, and finally to turn them against himself. By the end of 1942 we were able, with our Allies, to undertake the great expedition which landed our armies in North Africa and which led on to the landings in Sicily and Italy. The lessons of these operations were all of inestimable value in ensuring the success of the later landings in Normandy which were the beginning of the last stage of the war.
  In 1943 the science, labour and skill which had been accumulated against the U-boat came rapidly to fruition. The losses of merchant ships, which between March and May averaged over 14,000 tons a day, fell between June and August to less than 7,000 tons a day, and remained at an even lower figure for the rest of the war. This was the decisive turning point in the war at sea. The year 1943 saw the end of one of the Navy's bitterest fights. This was the year in which Admiral Sir Andrew Cunningham made his historic signal to the Admiralty:
  " Be pleased to inform Their Lordships that the Italian Battle Fleet now lies at anchor under the guns of the fortress of Malta."
  These brief and simple words marked a very great achievement in cur naval history; a triumph of skill and courage over size and numbers. By the end of the year, the enemy was losing more submarines than the Allied Nations were losing merchant ships. Our coastwise shipping moved freely from port to port, almost without interference, though in the last months of the war the U-boat campaign in coastal waters was to reappear in a new and menacing form. The light forces and light coastal forces of the Royal Navy had intensified their crippling attacks on the enemy coastal convoys. Our strength was gathering for the great assault on the Continent in the following year that was to lead to Germany's final downfall.
  For the Navy, 1944 was, above all, the year of Operation Neptune—the operation which landed the Allied Armies on the coast of France by a unique combination of strength, strategem and skill. This may well be regarded as the climax of the Naval war in Europe; the fruit of the years of struggle and toil which lay behind. This classic operation is an
  534
  enduring monument to the late Admiral Sir Bertram Ramsay whose loss we mourned a year ago. By 1945 the focus of naval strategy was in the Far East, where the powerful British Pacific Fleet had assembled under Admiral Sir Bruce Fraser. In addition, a large fleet under the command of Admiral Sir Arthur Power was operating in the Indian Ocean, in support of operations in the South-East Asia Command.
  When the "Cease Fire" sounded in Europe, Admiral Fraser's Fleet was fully engaged against the Japanese. Throughout May, the Pacific Fleet, organised as a fast carrier force operating with the United States Fleet, struck repeatedly at the Ryukyu Islands, in continuation of the series of attacks carried out in April, with the object of neutralising the enemy's air power and protecting the left flank of the United States forces attacking Okinawa. In June the Fleet resumed the onslaught on Japan. Throughout July and early August our naval forces, in close co-operation with the United States 3rd Fleet, launched a series of heavy and successful attacks against the mainland of Japan, including the Tokyo area. Important industrial, shipping, and air targets received the full weight of the Fleet's ship and air bombardment. Our midget submarines carried out a gallant and successful attack on Japanese cruisers in Singapore harbour. Offensive operations ended on 15th August. On 28th August units of the United States 3rd Fleet, and the Pacific Fleet with Admiral Sir Bruce Fraser flying his flag in His Majesty's Ship "Duke of York," entered Tokyo Bay, to be followed by the remainder of the United States 3rd Fleet with His Majesty's Ship "King George V" and other British and Dominion ships in company. Admiral Fraser represented Great Britain at the signing of the formal terms of surrender on 2nd September On 30th August, Hong Kong, liberated from hateful bondage, received a British naval force, led by Rear-Admiral Harcourt in His Majesty's Ship "Swiftsure," with a tumultuous welcome, deeply moving to our officers and men. Rear-Admiral Harcourt was appointed Commander-in-Chief, Hong Kong, and on 16th September received the surrender of the Colony from the Japanese.
  Meanwhile, the East Indies Fleet under Admiral Power was bearing its

  535
  part in the operations in South-East Asia. The capture of Mandalay and the British advance of the 14th Army down the Irrawaddy and Sittang rivers virtually ended the Japanese advance in Burma. The British advance through difficult country was aided by the operations of the Navy, in collaboration with the 15th Indian Corps, on the Arakan coast. Coastal force craft manned by British, Indian, South African and Burmese crews, operated up the Chaungs at night, harassing and causing casualties to the enemy in their attempt to cross the river. The arduous and daring operations by our submarines in the Malacca Straits and Andaman Sea virtually stopped the enemy's seaborne supplies and considerably increased his difficulties. A full-scale assault on Malaya, carefully prepared and mounted, had been planned to take place between Port Swettenham and Port Dickson, but the Japanese surrender took place first. On 9th September, however, the landing was carried out as planned to ensure the effectiveness of the surrender.
  Singapore was recaptured on 5th September, and the surrender of the Japanese force in Malaya was accepted by the Supreme Allied Commander on 12th September. It is a source of pride to the Navy that the Supreme Commander to whom this honour fell was a distinguished naval officer, Admiral Lord Louis Mountbatten. The peaceful occupation of Malaya was not repeated in Siam, French Indo-China or the Netherlands East Indies. The Navy, therefore, had to carry out landing operations and to establish naval officers-in-charge and port parties in many ports, often at a great distance from the main base at Singapore. The Royal and Merchant Navies also gave the fullest possible help in evacuating and repatriating Allied prisoners of war and internees of all nations from these countries. There can be no doubt that the Allied naval strategy designed to destroy the enemy fleet and effectively cut his sea communications was a principal factor in the rapid collapse of the enemy forces. The complete success of the operation is one of the most outstanding naval victories in history.
  I wish especially to draw the attention of the Committee to the part played by the Naval Air Arm in all these operations. Between the time when the British
  536
  Pacific Fleet left Leyte on 18th March, 1945, and the end of the war, our naval aircraft attacked the enemy on 33 strike days, flew 7,255 sorties of all types, dropped nearly 1,400 tons of bombs, fired over 1,000 rocket projectiles, and about a million rounds of smaller ammunition, destroyed 288 enemy aircraft and damaged 247. Naval aircraft also caused considerable damage and dislocation to the enemy's industries and communications, and sank or severely damaged 309 of the enemy's ships, both warships and merchant vessels, totalling 356,760 tons. I am glad to say that the successes cost only small losses in our own aircraft and, despite repeated attacks by the Japanese suicide bombers, we did not lose a single ship. This is a remarkable testimony to the design and construction of our aircraft carriers. The first line strength of the Naval Air Arm at the outbreak of war was only 232 aircraft. In 1945, it reached 1,357 and would have risen still higher had the war continued. In the course of this notable expansion the Naval Air Arm carried out many fine operations, notably in the Mediterranean, in the reinforcement of Malta, at the Battle of Taranto, covering the landings in North Africa, Sicily and Italy. In addition they have done an enormous amount of work in the protection of North Russian convoys and the like. The Naval Air Arm will assuredly play an ever increasing and important part in the Naval defence of the future. In the past it has often been less well equipped than we should have wished. We believe however that those difficulties are over and that this branch of the Navy now has equipment worthy of the splendid officers and men who serve in it.
  As soon as the Armistice with Germany was signed His Majesty's ships entered ports in North-West Germany, Norway, and Denmark to enforce the German surrender. 2,463 German war vessels fell into Allied hands, of which 1,962—including 203 U-boats—were operational or capable of repair within a short time, and 501 were damaged, scuttled in shallow waters, or still under construction. By far the greater part of these vessels surrendered to naval units under the command of Admiral Sir Harold Burrough.
  Thus the tale of the Royal Navy's wartime tasks, which I have, perforce, sketched briefly and most inadequately, comes to an end. Over the many years

  537
  of struggle brilliant actions, such as the victories at Taranto and Matapan and the sinking of the "Scharnhorst" by the Home Fleet under Admiral Fraser and Vice Admiral Vian's famous Malta convoy, stand out like beacons. They gladdened and heartened us when they occurred and they will join the long roll of naval victories in our history. Yet these actions, important though they were in their effect on the war, form but a part, I would even say a small part, of the Navy's share in the overthrow of tyranny and the saving of the world for freedom. The Navy's great task in the war, as always, was to keep open our sea communications through which alone the means of life and of waging war can come. The fulfilment of this task demanded unceasing vigilance and toil, day and night, from the first day to the last. It demanded unending patrols, often in small and uncomfortable craft, in every kind of climate from the bitter cold of the North Russian convoys to the sweating heat of the Pacific; patrols which might last for many days without any incident to relieve the monotony of isolation in the ocean spaces, yet with senses ever on the alert to discern the danger which was never far away.
  The following facts about the war against the U-boat give some measure of the magnitude of one part of this daily and unending task: A total of 996 commissioned U-boats, German, Italian and Japanese were destroyed by the Allies: an average of nearly one every two days throughout six years of war. Of 1,174 U-boats commissioned by the Germans since they re-started building their Fleet before the war, no less than 781 were destroyed. The two outstanding months of the war against the U-boats were May, 1943, when 46 U-boats were sunk, and April, 1945, when the Germans were evacuating the Baltic ports and 65 U-boats were sunk. The intensity of the U-boats' concentration against the British Isles is illustrated by the fact that of the 996 U-boats sunk throughout all the oceans of the world, over 300, or nearly one third, were destroyed within 500 miles of the United Kingdom, an area equivalent in size to only about one-fifth of the North Atlantic Ocean. Over 600 submarines were killed by British Forces, or Allied Forces under British control. Certain statistics concerning the forces by which these U-boats were sunk will be
  538
  found in a White Paper being issued today. There may be minor alterations as the full history of the war is pieced together.
  Teamwork between ships and aircraft at sea, between operational, training and scientific staffs on shore, and between different Services and different nationalities has been the secret of the remarkable success of the campaign against the U-boats. It is to perpetuate one aspect of this team work that a Joint R.N.-R.A.F. Anti-Submarine School has recently been established by the Admiralty and Air Ministry. On Admirals Sir Martin Dunbar-Nasmith, Sir Percy Noble and Sir Max Horton, successive Commanders-in-Chief, Western Approaches, fell the main burden of the naval direction of the war against the U-boats. To their great gifts of leadership and organisation much of its success must be ascribed. Another of the Navy's continuing tasks, not often mentioned, was minelaying. Our highly successful campaign caused the enemy by this means about 1,540 shipping casualties, and greatly assisted the disruption of his communications and hence his defeat. Altogether 263,000 mines were laid by surface minelayers, submarines and aircraft. About one-fifth of these were laid by aircraft of the Royal Air Force.
  All this could not be achieved without grievous losses of officers and men and of H.M. ships. The total casualties of all our Forces in the recent conflict were mercifully less than in the first world war, but the toll exacted from the Royal Navy, for whom this war was fiercer and far more widespread than any in its history, was even heavier.
  In the whole course of the war nearly 51,000 officers and men of the Royal Navy, excluding the navies of the Dominions and the Royal Marines, were killed or are missing. This number exceeds by over 20,000 the numbers killed in the Navy during the war of 1914–1918. This figure is some indication of the price paid for the preservation of liberty and the destruction of tyranny. The cost has to be borne in homes in all parts of the Kingdom. It is the most grievous part of the cost of the war and one which cannot be in any way repaid. We can only be grateful for the example of the gallant lives so freely given. Gallantry itself is not to be measured. There must always be

  539
  so many deeds of heroism which go unseen or unrecorded. But some indication of those which were seen and recorded is given by the fact that up to the end of 1945 nearly 15,000 awards had been made to officers and men of the Royal Navy, including the Dominion Navies, the Royal Marines and the Reserves. These included 23 awards of the Victoria Cross, and 29 awards of the George Cross. The standard required for any of these awards as the House knows is extremely high, and these bald figures represent a sum of heroism of which the Navy may be proud.
  Losses of H.M. ships and craft, including requisitioned ships in naval service, that is ships of all sizes and sorts, from the beginning of the war to 31st August. 1945, amounted to no less than 3,282. These figures include three battleships and two battle cruisers, or one-third of our capital ship strength at the outbreak of war, five fleet carriers, 23 cruisers, 134 destroyers and 77 submarines. This again is an example and a warning, if warning is needed, of the terrible cost of modern warfare. There are many officers and men and many branches of our naval Forces of whose part in the war I should like to speak before leaving this part of my account. I should like to describe the great part played by the navies of the Dominions, of India and our Allies with whom bonds were forged in adversity, never, I trust, to be weakened; I should like to tell of the Royal Marines, that gallant corps so peculiarly fitted for the amphibious warfare of the recent conflict, and the source, in my estimation, of perhaps the finest commandos in the world; of the R.F.R., R.N.R., and R.N.V.R., young and old, who showed themselves so adaptable, and who gave such splendid service throughout; of the Women's Royal Naval Service, who performed an immense variety of tasks, often difficult and sometimes dangerous, with an efficiency and, may I say, charm, which will ever be remembered with gratitude; and finally of the men of the Merchant Navy, whose brotherhood with the Royal Navy has never been closer, . a brotherhood born of danger shared and common difficulties overcome. Time will permit me to mention but twoindividuals—the two distinguished officers who have between them held the office of First Sea Lord throughout these momentous years. I cannot recall the name of
  540
  Admiral of the Fleet Sir Dudley Pound, who was First Sea Lord when the war broke out and until just before his death in October, 1943, without considerable personal emotion. His above all was the hand which guided the Navy through our years of greatest peril, the greatest in our history. The occupation of France, Belgium. Holland and Norway, the entry of Italy and then of Japan into the war, faced us with odds which could never have been foreseen, and were so great as to daunt the stoutest heart. Admiral Pound was undaunted. Complete master of his profession, with a judgment founded on a full knowledge, he weighed the dangers and the possibilities with a sure touch and laid the plans which brought us from the extremity of peril to the threshold of victory. I remember, in that week of Dunkirk, when everything looked to be going to rack and ruin, how he fixed my soul in its outlook and purpose, when he said:
  "There is one thing that cannot happen. The Royal Navy cannot be defeated. If we are prevented from fighting from here we will fight from any part of the globe until it takes us through."
  It may sound very impossible but that is the spirit which got us through. Wise in counsel, steadfast in adversity, staunch in friendship, his selfless service to the country, the Empire and the free world, was beyond price. May we never cease to honour his name.
  In Admiral of the Fleet Lord Cunningham, England found, in her time of greatest need, a sea captain in the great tradition. In his own theatre at sea Admiral Cunningham was brought face to face with the dangers seen so clearly by Admiral Pound from the Admiralty. It fell to his lot, for a period, to contain a major fleet of battleships, and numerous cruisers and destroyers, with no more than a few cruisers, destroyers and submarines. He conducted operations of great hazard such as the withdrawal from Crete; he fought convoys through the Mediterranean on which all depended; he took momentous decisions with little time for thought, in conditions most unfavourable to considered judgment. The line between the bold seizing of opportunity and initiative, and engagement in rash and fool-hardy enterprise, is not firmly or clearly drawn. . It cannot be laid down by a mathematician's rule, and there would be many people even in an assembly like this,

  541
  who would be very critical which ever way it went. Admiral Cunningham possessed the judgment, seemingly instinctive in our greatest seamen, which showed him on each occasion where the line lay. He is also endowed with that touch of magic which has ever enabled our greatest Admirals to infuse the whole of the forces under their command with something of their own spirit, so that officers and men alike follow unquestioningly and with complete confidence, however hazardous the undertaking may seem. I do not hesitate to describe Lord Cunningham as the greatest sea captain since Nelson. Lord Cunningham's services to the Allied cause in war are incalculable, and his services to the Navy will not end when the time comes for him to lay down his present office, for the inspiration of his deeds in battle and the fruits of his work as First Sea Lord will live on.
  The war against Japan ended suddenly, and far sooner than could have been expected on any prudent calculation. I have described how a full-scale assault was poised ready to strike Malaya when the war ended. At home as well as abroad, despite such cuts in our war production as we had felt it possible to make both before and after VE-Day, a gigantic war-making machine was still in being with the sole object of ending the war as quickly as possible. The needs of the nation changed overnight. We are no longer a nation at war, fighting for its life and putting every ounce of its manhood and treasure into the battle, but a nation much impoverished in material things by the ravages of war; a nation much in debt in terms of money in many parts of the world; a nation no longer able to count on the plentiful aid from other countries which enabled her to devote her maximum strength to the fighting fronts. The crying need is for men, materials and money at home to rebuild the national economy on the ruins of war. The urgent duty of the fighting Services is to release their men and to reduce their demands for money and material as rapidly as is humanly possible and consistent with the fulfilment of our commitments abroad, and with due regard to the just treatment of the fighting men themselves.
  There still remain naval tasks to be done. For example, mine clearance is a vast and pressing labour which had to be performed before the trade on which
  542
  we, above all others, depend could move freely about the world. Half a million British and German mines had been laid in European waters alone. On the initiative of the British Government, an International Mine Clearance Board, under the presidency of a British flag officer, was set up with headquarters at the Admiralty in May, 1945. All major ports of Europe were open to trade by the autumn of 1945 except in Yugoslavia, which joined the International Organisation later. The burden of this immense task, during the opening stages, necessarily fell on Great Britain. Very large areas of water have been declared open to navigation and fishing. We have been able to release all minesweeping trawlers, drifters and whalers to be reconverted for fishing. All this is a naval task, but it is also an essential part of reconstruction.
  More than 7,000 British naval personnel were required for the occupation of Germany, with small naval forces. In Japan, and throughout her area of conquest, the repatriation of many thousands of prisoners and internees from Britain and the Empire was an urgent problem. Ships of the British Pacific Fleet were employed to the fullest possible extent on this duty. These were a few of the tasks still remaining for the Navy when the war ended. Since V.J. Day, however, our main problems have all been concerned with demobilisation in the widest sense. The Coalition Government decided on the plan for release by age and length of service and the present Government has faithfully followed that plan. It could be argued that the plan does not provide the quickest possible return of men from the Forces to civil life that could be devised, but it is undoubtedly the fairest to those most closely concerned, and the Government and, I believe, the country are satisfied that, on the whole, the principle is the best that could be followed. In May 1945 when the release plan started, there were 778,000 officers and men in the R.N. With the Pacific war, essentially a Naval war, on our hands, release at first could only be slow, but 41,000 were released by the end of August. With the fall of Japan demobilisation went into full swing and, by 31st December, a total of 199,000, or 26 per cent., had been released. By the same date, over 35 per cent .of the W.R.N.S. had been released. It is hoped to release

  543
  another 200,000 from the Navy by 6th May, and by 30th June it is expected that the W.R.N.S. will be little more than one fifth of its maximum size. By the end of 1946 it is planned to reduce the Navy to not more than 200,000 including the W.R.N.S. and new entries and men under training; that is to say to very little more than one quarter of its maximum size.
  To achieve this result very drastic steps have, of course, been necessary, and it is inevitable that the efficiency of the Navy should suffer in the process. If we succeed in our object, while at the same time maintaining the age and length of service principle, I claim that it will be a considerable achievement. It is only in the face of the tremendous need to build up our civil national economy that the Board of Admiralty have felt able to accept this very rapid reduction in the size of the Navy. The Committee will realise that in these circumstances the figure for Vote A which is before them is of no special significance It is merely the figure to which the process of demobilisation will have brought us at the beginning of the financial year, and it therefore represents the maximum bearing in the year. It has no relation to the ultimate size of Vote A.
  The end of the war also found us with a large programme of naval vessels under construction. This is inevitable at the end of any great war, and especially of a war which came to an end, as I have said, much sooner than we had dared expect. Warships take a long time to build and there is a constant need to make good the losses of war so long as the war lasts. Yet, as long ago as November, 1944, the Board of Admiralty reviewed the warship building programme and decided that only work on warships which could be completed in time to fight in the Far East before the end of 1946 should be pressed on. At the same time, it was decided that merchant ships should take precedence of all the other warships building, except in a few cases where it was desirable to complete a warship already laid down in order to clear the slip for merchant work. With the end of the war, it was necessary to decide what vessels already under construction were to be completed and which were to be cancelled. The facts of which we were most keenly aware were the need to economise to the utmost in money and
  544
  labour and the need to free labour, material and capacity for merchant ship construction, repair and reconversion. Other factors were the amount of money already spent on a particular ship; whether the vessel was of new design, incorporating the lessons of the war, or whether it was of older design; whether it was economical in the light of contract conditions and the need for clearing the stocks and slipways to complete a vessel to a stage at which it could be readily removed for sale or disposal; the possibility of sale to other countries; the needs of the postwar Fleet.
  All these factors have had to be carefully weighed, with the need for economy always uppermost in our minds. The result is that since V.E. Day we have cancelled some 727 vessels, from Fleet Carriers downwards, whose total cost, had they been completed, is estimated at £158 million, of which approximately £32½million had already been spent or was a liability under break-clause conditions, giving a net saving of £125½ million. The effect is that on 1st April, 1946, the new construction remaining in hand will consist mainly of the larger vessels for which normal replacement was suspended during the war, or of new types of vessel such as light fleet carriers needed for the post-war Fleet. Considerable numbers of vessels were also cancelled before V.E. Day, when the course of events showed that it was unlikely that they would be completed in time to be of value. The savings resulting from these cancellations are estimated at an additional £64 million.
  These decisions, I assure the Committee, have not always been easy. It is difficult to make up your mind to scrap a vessel on which considerable sums have been spent. It is often not so much a matter of spoiling a ship for a ha'porth of tar as of losing a ship altogether for the sake of two-pennyworth. But my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made it clear that it would be right to sacrifice past expenditure where this would make for present and future economy, and the Board of Admiralty have been rigorous in their cuts.
  We have applied the same principles to naval works, buildings and repairs at home and abroad. We are only completing those works which were at such a stage that it was more economical to

  545
  complete them than to close them down, or those which were required for the postwar needs of the Fleet, with suitable modifications. Buildings requisitioned for naval use during the war are being released as rapidly as progress of demobilisation permits. When buildings which are of the highest priority for civil use, such as dwelling houses and schools, cannot be vacated at once we endeavour to find alternative accommodation so that release can be effected at the earliest moment. The Committee will realise, however, that most naval establishments are in the neighbourhood of the three home ports, two of which suffered most severely from air attack. We lost a large part of our buildings and their replacement imposes a heavy burden of new building, and must affect the rate at which we can release other buildings.
  The naval new construction programme for 1945 was reduced to the absolute minimum at the end of the war, and now consists only of two escort vessels, one submarine, two surveying ships, six small floating docks and some miscellaneous small craft. We have at the present time only one battleship under construction, the "Vanguard," which is practically finished. It was decided early in the war not to proceed with the "Lion" and "Temeraire," of the 1938 programme, or the "Conqueror" and "Thunderer," of the 1939 programme, as none of these ships could be completed before the end of 1944, and all our shipbuilding resources were required for more immediate needs. It is not intended to proceed with any of these four ships. Future decisions upon capital ships will, of course, depend on many factors, and I am not in a position to make any statement at present. The Committee may be assured, however, that any decision we may arrive at on this matter will not only take full account of the lessons of the war, but of the probable conditions of the future. His Majesty's Ship "Van-guard" will be a vessel of 42,500 tons estimated standard displacement with a main armament consisting of 8 15" guns. Her estimated cost is approximately £9 million, excluding the cost of the mountings and guns for the main armament which were already available.
  I am asking today only for a Vote on Account, and the Committee will realise that, as in the case of Vote A, its amount is not of any special significance. It
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  represents a sum which will enable the Navy to carry on until the full provision for the year has been voted. The Committee may, however, wish me to say something about the proposed total for Navy Votes which has already been published. The total cannot be com-pared with either the total for Navy Estimates before the war or with what the total is likely to be in future years. There has, of course, been a substantial general increase in prices and wage levels since the beginning of the war and this is the first factor which must be taken into account. We have had to increase the pay of all officers and men, and the Committee, surely, will not grudge what has been done in that direction. Secondly, because we shall be demobilising for at least the greater part of the year, we have to provide for a much larger Vote A than in a normal peacetime year. Thirdly, despite the heavy cancellations to which I have referred, large commitments in respect of wartime production have to be met in the forthcoming financial year which cannot by any means be escaped. Again, we have to provide a large sum to meet our liabilities for personnel leaving the service in respect of leave allowances, war gratuities and postwar credits. These also are inescapable There are further exceptional charges for rehabilitation of requisitioned premises, and expenditure on merchant shipbuilding, which is a wartime addition to Navy Votes. When all these factors are taken into account, I think the total of the Navy Estimates, in any reasonable judgment, must be considered surprisingly low, and I can assure the Committee that it will need our utmost endeavours to keep within the sum proposed for this still abnormal year.
  If the Committee requires any further reassurance that naval expenditure in the coming year will be kept to the least possible, I would inform them that the vigilance of my colleagues in the Cabinet who are concerned with the economic reconstruction of the country is something which has to be experienced to be believed. They all have great, pressing requirements for men, materials and money, and they all look with hungry eyes and very stern expressions at the-poor Service Ministers, who seem to be regarded as the sole providers of those most desirable commodities. In my view, the risk is not so much that we shall spend too much on the Navy in this coming

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  year, as that we may unduly lower its efficiency by attempting to achieve too great a reduction in too short a time. But my faith in the strength and resiliency of the Navy is such that I believe we tan survive successfully even the very rapid process of reduction which is now going on.
  I do not wish the Committee to think that in the process of this transition from war to peace the Board of Admiralty is forgetful in any way of the welfare and efficiency of the Service for which we are responsible. Very much thought and labour has been and is being devoted to future conditions of service, to the entry, training, accommodation and welfare of personnel, and much research to the form which Naval ships and weapons must take in the future. As the Committee is aware, the Government have produced a completely revised pay code for Service personnel, which we believe will provide a foundation on which we can build with confidence in the future. I am aware that there have been criticisms of certain aspects and I would not claim that the scheme is perfect. There will no doubt be modifications, if necessary, as time goes on. I am sure the Committee will welcome the announcement yesterday that the men referred to in the pay code of last December, who hold the same rank on 30th June next, are not now to have any chance of losing their rates of pay, but have only to await adjustment on a rising scale of future promotion and increments. There have also been criticisms about the accommodation and living conditions of naval personnel, and I am aware that there is substantial room for improvement. Many naval barracks are old and poorly equipped by modern standards. Before the war a programme of improvements was contemplated. The war prevented its fulfilment, but we shall press on with the programme to the fullest extent that the money and labour allotted to us will permit. But the Committee will realise that in this immediate postwar period, in which the country is faced with enormous requirements for houses and replacements for buildings destroyed by bombs, we cannot hope to achieve anything very startling.
  We are faced with another very real difficulty in the accommodation of per-
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  sonnel in His Majesty's ships. It is said, and with some truth, that there is less and less room for the officers and men who live in the most modern warships. The scientists and technicians have produced so many ingenious devices in such fields as radar and gunnery that the modern warship, though doubtless a scientist's dream, is to the layman something of a nightmare of fearsome and complex machinery. I do not for a moment say that these devices are unnecessary. Success at sea, as in other kinds of warfare, demands the latest and best of technical equipment. But all these devices take up room and add to weight, and they have all got to be manned by extra men. Either some space available to personnel must be given up for the devices, or ships must be built bigger and cost more. If we built ever larger ships, the country, I fear, would soon be unable to afford to provide as many as we require for the area we have to cover. These difficulties are, of course, being tackled, and I can assure the Committee that the importance of good living conditions in our ' ships is very much in our minds. I hope that research into design and construction in the future will find many ways of providing ships which are not too large, which contain all the equipment we require, but at the same time leave sufficient room for those who live in them.
  It is the Admiralty's intention to devote in future a considerably larger proportion of Navy Votes to scientific research and development than before the war. I believe that this intention will have the full approval of the Committee. One of the main lessons of the war was the absolute necessity for keeping ahead in the application of science to warfare in all its forms.
  Concurrently with the battles at sea, on land and in the air, were waged battles no less intense between the scientists and technicians in the laboratories and workshops. The powers released by applied science have grown with terrifying speed. The share of science in warfare grows correspondingly. In the war our scientists held their own, and more than held their own, with those of the enemy. We must ensure that in future we do not fall behind in this field. The experience of the war and developments in scientific knowledge will, no doubt, profoundly affect the Fleets of the future. The Board of Ad-

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  miralty believes that expenditure on scientific research and development must have priority so that we may produce the right weapons and the best weapons. We believe that sums wisely spent in this way will save us very much larger sums which might be spent in making warships and weapons of an ineffective or inferior kind.
  There are those who would say that there can be no fear of war for some years to come and that we should therefore concentrate all our expenditure on research and call a halt to the production of warships and weapons of all kinds. Even if the hypothesis were accepted, this policy is not practicable. The warship building and armament industries cannot be turned on and off like a tap, at will. They depend on knowledge, experience and skill, all accumulated over many years of specialised work. If this accumulation was once dispersed it could not be recovered for many years, if ever. I have already informed the Committee that we have reduced the new construction programme for 1945 to extremely small dimensions, but while it will be our policy to continue production of warships and weapons to the extent that is necessary for the postwar Fleet and for the conservation of the industries on which the Fleet depends, we shall give priority to expenditure on research and development. At the present time the greater part of the Admiralty scientific and technical staff is housed in temporary quarters, and difficulties of housing will inevitably limit to some extent what we are able to do in the coming year.
  My right hon. Friend the Minister of War Transport and myself have given particular attention to the future health of the shipbuilding and ship-repairing industry. The two world wars have shown us as never before how utterly dependent this country is on its shipyards. It is a vital need of peace, as of war, that the industry should remain prosperous and efficient. The Minister and I have made proposals, which have been approved by H.M. Government, for setting up a Shipbuilding Advisory Committee, to take the place of the Committee set up in 1944, temporarily, to advise the Government on all matters affecting the efficiency and stability of the industry; to advise on any steps required to safeguard the war potential of the industry; to promote the co-operation of shipbuilding employers
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  both with shipowners and the representatives of shipyard labour; and to advise on organisation, practice and cognate matters, with a view to maintaining and improving the efficiency and stability of the industry. The Government have decided that the Committee should have an independent chairman, with representatives of the Admiralty, the Ministry of War Transport and the Ministry of Labour, together with representatives of the shipbuilding industry, the shipbuilding trade unions, shipowners and the officers' and seamen's union in the Merchant Navy.
  We believe that this Committee will play a valuable part in one of the most important fields of the national economy. By contributing to the prosperity and stability of the industry, we believe that the Committee will make a great contribution to the welfare of the many thousands of workers engaged in the industry. These workers have done a great job during the war. They have turned out a tremendous volume of shipbuilding and ship repairs, and maintained the traditional high quality of British workman-ship. They have often carried out their work in difficult and dangerous conditions, for our shipyards were amongst the main objects of the enemy's air attacks. For all this they deserve well, and a Labour Government are not likely to forget that. But I should like to remind the workers themselves that we are still fighting; not now fighting a vicious and tyrannical enemy on the seas, but fighting for the recovery of our country, for its rebuilding, and for the recovery of our standard of living—and then its improvement. This can be done in one way only: by continuing the hard and steady labour which enabled us to overcome our enemies in the war, and which is now required in no less measure if we are to enjoy any of the fruits of peace.
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that point, may I say that I notice with regret there is no mention of the fishing industry being represented on the new Committee of which he has been talking. He will no doubt remember the part which not only fishermen but fishermen's boats have played during the war.
  Mr. Alexander: The fishing industry will be looked after by its own side, and

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  by its committee operated by the Minister of Agriculture. We really cannot make the Ship-building Advisory Committtee into a complete Parliament.
  Now, for a moment, may I look to the future? What form will the Royal Navy take in the years that lie before us? What will be its role? Will it, some have asked, have any role at all? These are large and grave questions. It is much too soon to give considered or final answers to some of them, and what I shall say is no more than a few preliminary thoughts of my own. There are some who may say that the release of atomic energy has destroyed the need for navies in the future; that any future war would be so rapidly decided by this new and terrible weapon that a navy could have no part to play; but there are the strongest reasons for refusing to act now as though this possibility was a certainty. So far we have only seen the atomic bomb used against land targets, in conditions of complete surprise, virtually without any opposition to its conveyor. Possible means of defence have yet to be devised and applied. This new weapon will tax the resources of defence obviously more than any weapon previously known. In the past, powerful defence has been provided against any weapon which at its first appearance seemed to be invincible.
  The release of atomic energy is still so much in its in fancy and may yet develop into such annihilating danger to mankind, that, as suggested by an hon. Member on Monday last, the second world war may be the last occasion of its use. We must, in thinking of a precedent, be thankful that gas was not used in the war. There were powerful considerations which deterred even the most unscrupulous aggressor we have ever known from the use of gas for example. We do not yet know the limit of effectiveness of the atomic bomb against ships at sea. Experiments of a most comprehensive and searching kind are to be carried out by the United States authorities into this matter. Their results may lead to big changes in the methods and tactics of naval defence and the form of ships, but it would be premature to attempt to say what these changes may be.
  One thing is certain. Not only the freedom, but the standard of life of our people in this country, depends on the maintenance of our sea communications. We
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  must, to maintain 45,000,000people, continue to import the larger proportion of our food and raw materials, and export to pay for them. Our experience in the last war demonstrated once more that if we ever neglected the security of our communications we should be at the mercy of any aggressor. He would have no need to incur the hazards of using the atomic bomb. He would simply, surely and swiftly destroy us by cutting our arteries at sea. We could no longer defend ourselves, or, as we have done in the last war, carry munitions and food to the sustenance of our Allies, whether through the darkness of the Arctic Ocean to Russia or through the warmer seas to the Middle East. So long as we live by seaborne supplies neglect of naval defence would be a policy of abandonment and despair. It is certainly no policy for the British Commonwealth on the morrow of a victory won after long years of fighting to save ourselves and the world for freedom. We may hope never again to have to engage alone in a struggle for liberty, but we must be able and ready to bear our full part within the United Nations organisation in maintaining the peace of the world, and, if need be, in defending ourselves.
  Throughout the second world war the House has been most generous in its support and encouragement to the Navy and as I look back I think with gratitude of that support hon. Members have given us in good times and bad. Today, with the dark years behind us and the victory won, I venture to claim that the Navy has deserved well of the House and of the country which bred it and sustained it. I claim also that the House and the country owe a duty to the Navy. It has almost become a tradition that this country should be unprepared, when, despite all our efforts for peace, war may overtake us. It is a very dangerous tradition. We have survived our un preparedness in earlier wars because behind the shield of the Royal Navy we have gained sufficient time to repair our deficiencies and accumulate strength finally to overthrow our enemies. But each time the safety margin has grown less. We all know that we might very easily have lost the second world war and now be living, if such an existence could be called life, under Nazi domination. We must never again dare the risk of unpreparedness. This country, this Empire has demonstrated its desire

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  for peace again and again, to the point of sacrifice and even of humiliation. We ought by now to have learned, by the loss of life and resources entailed in war, that a weak Britain is not an aid to peace. We are resolved to play our full part as a member of the United Nations organisation. I hope indeed that every nation has now recognised the truth:
  " Ye dare not stand alone."
  The Royal Navy must ever be. prepared to play its part behind that organisation in support of justice and freedom. We may hope that the United Nations organisation may become so well established and so trusted that the Forces required in its support may steadily be reduced, but in the meantime this House owes the Royal Navy the duty of vigilance. Vigilance now and vigilance in the years to come, so that we may never again be unprepared. It is in the light of this duty of the House that I confidently ask the support of the Committee in the Motion which is before them.
  5.5 p.m.
  Mr. J. P. L. Thomas: I should like to congratulate the First Lord on his speech, and also on his success in the role of prophet, exactly a year ago. It is quite true that the type of Government in which he finds himself today, compared with a year ago, is vastly different, but I propose to turn a blind eye to that, because on these occasions the Navy rises well above all party political considerations. The Navy is a national, not a party question, and this always sets the standard for our Debates on the Navy Estimates, and I am sure it will be so today. So far as the First Lord himself is concerned, I can go further than that and say from these benches that not only do we understand but that we congratulate him on the personal pleasure he must feel, after these five anxious years as the Navy's ruler, to be still there as First Lord, and able to present this final chapter of the history of the Navy during the years of war.
  Having said that, I would also say that this side of the Committee, perhaps the whole Committee, noticed one gap in the tributes paid during the First Lord's excellent speech, which I should like to try to fill. We cannot pass on to the rest of this Debate without recalling, in great gratitude, the services of my right hon.
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  Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), the Leader of the Opposition, to whom we owe so much for the courage and inspiration he gave to the Royal Navy, during those six months of hideous strain at the beginning of the war, and, in later years, as Minister of Defence.
  I thought that the First Lord painted his picture extremely well. If he put in the forefront of it the more vivid actions like the sinking of the "Scharnhorst" and the "Bismarck," and the scuttling of the "Graf Spee," he did not let the Committee throughout his speech forget the importance of the general background of the work of the Royal Navy behind the screen of silence of those war years. How much of that background was brought back today by his speech. To take only one example, there was the Battle of the Atlantic, or, as I prefer to think of it, the first Battle of Britain, which made it possible for the armaments and aviation spirit to get to this country for that triumphant later battle, the battle in the air, and so enabled us to be victorious. The first Battle of the Atlantic was a silent battle, compared with the battle in the air, with its falling enemy aeroplanes in the Southern counties, but it was no less momentous for this country. Much of the background work of the Navy, as the First Lord well knows, has remained unseen and unsung. It is disclosed so long after it has happened. Very often that is necessary, though not always—but, whether necessary or not, that delay makes it difficult for people to piece the whole picture together at a later date. I know it is the intention of the Admiralty, and I hope it will bear fruit, that apart from any proper official history of the Navy at war which may be written, there should be written a simplified story which can appear on the bookshelves of the average family household, and which will record those years of travail and of triumph.
  I would like to join in the tribute to Admiral Lord Cunningham for his brilliant command at sea. But my personal knowledge of him only began when he was at his desk at the Admiralty as First Sea Lord. There was some doubt expressed at the time of his arrival whether he, as one of our greatest sea captains—and the First Lord said he was the greatest since Nelson—would adapt

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  himself to anything so stationary as that desk. After all, we had never tried the experiment with Nelson. But the results in Admiral Lord Cunningham's case were the greatest possible success. He inspired both the Service and civilian staffs of the Admiralty in the same way as he had inspired his action command, with confidence and devotion.
  Before I come to the wider issues with which these Estimates deal, I must point out that the First Lord's speech still leaves us with many questions which have been put to him during Question time in the House during the past months unanswered, especially as to the future of certain branches of the Service, and the W.R.N.S. These questions, undoubtedly, will be asked again by hon. Members in the course of this Debate. I do not know if they can be answered today, but I hope the answers will not be delayed very long. I hope it will be possible to answer at least some of these questions when we have another Debate on the Navy Estimates at a date which, I understand, is not very far distant. I realise also that these decisions may rest with powers higher even than that of the Lords of the Admiralty. But I know the First Lord will bear in mind that this delay is causing anxiety and speculation among the branches of the Services concerned, and no one will be more glad to hear his decisions than right hon. and hon. Members of this Committee.
  I propose, Major Milner, to leave the detailed comments on the new pay code to other speakers, if they are fortunate in catching your eye. I leave it to them, because they may be speakers who have seen service in all ranks and can tell the Committee from first-hand knowledge of their own experience of Service pay. I think, therefore, the Committee would prefer to hear those first-hand testimonies and complaints from other hon. Members than from myself.
  I should like to add a word to what the First Lord said about Item 10 of these Estimates, and that is the question of Admiralty buildings and barracks. I realise many improvements were to have been carried out by the Admiralty if war had not come. I realise that the bombing of our ports made things 100 per cent. worse than they were before the war. Of course, as he said, the homes
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  of the people have got first priority; but these barracks and buildings are the places where the men have to spend most of their lives when they are on shore. The barracks at Portsmouth, Chatham and Devonport were all built, I think I am right in saying, at the very beginning of this century. By modern standards the overcrowding of the men is really worrying. The arrangements for feeding and writing are very inadequate and the arrangements for recreation are almost non-existent. There is another need connected with this question of barracks and buildings, and that is the need for married quarters. The accommodation for naval families at each of the ports is insufficient, and the men have to compete with industrial workers for what houses are available. I am sure the Committee would welcome an assurance that in their plans for rebuilding and extending the barracks they will keep to the fore the needs of the married men. I was at the Admiralty when the battle of the postwar priorities was just beginning. I can imagine what a struggle they are having today. All I can do from this side is to wish them the best of good fortune in their fight for a high priority, as high a priority as possible, in building materials and in building labour in order to better those living conditions.
  Commander Pursey: If I may interrupt the hon. Member before he leaves that point, will he make it clear whether he is advocating married quarters in the barracks, or houses for married families clear of the barracks? The Navy does not want to have married quarters in the barracks in the naval ports at home. They want ordinary houses with the civilian population. The impression I got, perhaps wrongly, was that the hon. Gentleman was advocating married quarters in the barracks.
  Mr. Thomas: No. I entirely agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman. The sailors want houses near at hand, alongside perhaps, the ordinary civilian community and outside the barracks. I am sorry if I gave the impression that I was talking about married quarters inside the actual walls of the barracks.
  I would also like to say a word about Items 8 and 16 of the Estimates which relate to shipbuilding. Prime Ministers, like other distinguished personages, are apt to move in a mysterious way. But

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  no move can have been more mysterious than the one which sent me to the Admiralty to succeed the right hon. Member, the present Secretary of State for the Colonies, as a liaison between the First Lord and the Admiralty dockyards and shipyards. I must confess that when I first went to take the chair at the Admiralty Industrial Council I was hardly comforted to find, on inquiring into the past lives of the two Scotsmen, the temporary civil servants, who were to be two of my main supporters at that gathering, that one had been a French don and the other had been a professor of philosophy. But they were both, brilliant, which is a tribute to Sir Henry Markham's positive genius in picking his men. I understand, incidentally, that the French don has left the French language permanently for trade union law, but, alas, the professor of philosophy has hurried back to his university claiming that he has collected sufficient material for a new treatise, the publication of which the Admiralty Industrial Council, and I, myself, are awaiting with some anxiety.
  It was an unforgettable experience to be in contact with the shipyards while they were preparing for VE Day, and later for the war in the Far East. I should like to add my tribute to that which the First Lord paid to the industry. The workers are entitled to be proud of their contribution to the war effort. I am not sure that it is always fully realised by hon. Members who do not sit for shipyard towns just how exacting is the work of shipbuilding. Most of it is carried on with very little protection from the wind or weather. In war time were added the black-out and the bombing, yet in spite of all these difficulties, the flow of ships to supply our life-line never failed. It was never even interrupted. The yards turned out ships of every conceivable type from the largest battleship to midget craft.
  At times, and I know this well, we asked much of them. We asked them to abandon temporarily many of their trade union demarcation rules and regulations. We asked them sometimes to leave, much to their bewilderment, a job half done because something of greater importance had suddenly come along. But I believe any number of strikes and troubles were avoided by one golden rule, that, unless security made it impossible, it was always
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  the object of the Admiralty in their connections with the men's leaders and the production committees in the shipyards, to take them into their confidence and tell them why the job had to be done. I found that there was nothing like the knowledge of what a special job was, to break down suspicion and to queer the pitch of the would-be agitator. In the shipyards, as the First Lord knows, these Production Committees were started early in the war. I became a great believer in them, and I trust they will go on. The opportunity to meet the men face to face and discuss their problems, to see both sides of the picture, and to foe able to explain the Admiralty requirements, was worth more than any number of reports. To iron out the difficulties on the spot kept, I think, the men in good heart and up to their jobs. I am absolutely certain that could not have been done merely by issuing directions from Whitehall.
  Here, I know, it is the wish of hon. Members from shipyard constituencies that I should pay a short tribute to the late Controller of the Admiralty, Admiral Sir Frederick Wake-Walker. The work of the Board of Admiralty was divided in such a way that Admiral Wake-Walker and myself worked as a pair in the dockyards and shipyards. His way of handling the production committees was perfection. His patience and tolerance and complete understanding of the workmen, whether shipwright, electrician or riveter was admirable and he has left behind him with these men, as well as with myself and other hon. Members of the House, an admiration and affection which may surprise those who had not seen him at work on this side of his job, He died from overwork last year, and almost literally at his desk at the Admiralty, with the European and Far East wars won. But his knowledge and influence in our shipyards will be tragically missed in the years ahead.
  I was very glad to hear what the first Lord said about the Shipping Advisory Committee, and about its width of composition, and the bringing in, for the first time, of the trade unions as members. I am sure it is going to have a great influence in developing the machinery for industrial consultation which already exists in the shipyards. I am sure it is going to get co-operation going, and to develop the idea, which is so important, of co-partnership. I am quite certain

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  that, before long, the shipyards themselves may well be able to set an example to many other industries. They have still got a very heavy task before them in reconverting the many ships from war purposes to peacetime purposes, and the speed at which they do that task is of the utmost importance to us in our daily life and to our export and import trade. I am quite sure that a call to these shipyards for full output now is not going to fail, and I am sure that one reason for the response to that call will be due to the knowledge that this Shipping Advisory Committee is watching over their destiny, because the one dread they have, as Admiral Wake-Walker and I found out on our visits to the Clyde or the Mersey or to Tyne side, was the fear that the unemployment after the last war was going to repeat itself in the early years following the end of this war.
  This Committee will also help in planning economically the building of naval as well as merchant ships, and I should like to say how very satisfactory is the saving of these many millions of pounds —I think the First Lord said that it is £190 million—by the foresight of the Admiralty in reviewing and adjusting their programme of warship building both before and after V.E. day. I should like to praise this foresight much more loudly, but modesty reduces me to silence when I remember who was Financial Secretary to the Admiralty when that decision was made. In return for that barbed shaft I will tell the First Lord that I have received a most unexpected and generous contribution to my speech from a distinguished Army officer and Member of this House, who has told me to ask why the Admiralty does not put up a strong claim to the Treasury that the money spent on building landing ship tanks and landing craft tanks for other Services should be shared between the three. I pass on that piece of ammunition to the First Lord, because I know he has need of all the ammunition he can get.
  I have left the question of the future of the Navy till the last. The Prime Minister gave us a figure of 175,000 men at the end of 1946. I understand why the First Lord cannot tell us today what the postwar final figure of the peace time strength of the Navy will be. Personally
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  I hope very much that we shall not drop below the figure which the Prime Minister gave. The First Lord today talked about 200,000, but I think he was adding the new entrants and men under training, and that, otherwise, his figures are the same as the Prime Minister's. I hope very much we shall not sink below them. I notice that Admiral Nimitz, the United States Chief of Naval Operations, is thinking of a fleet between 500,000 and 600,000 strong. He is not being deterred by thoughts of the atomic bomb from keeping a strong naval force and we were delighted to hear in the Debate on Tuesday that the British First Lord is also undeterred.
  The atomic bomb may change the type of ship, but it does not alter the mission of the Navy in controlling the sea. If our Navy were to be abandoned, there is no need to use the atomic bomb, because all an enemy has to do is to cut our arteries at sea and destroy us, and the question of those life arteries leads me to the subject of aircraft. Aircraft grow larger year by year and. they are becoming increasingly independent of weather conditions, but the time when air transport will entirely supersede surface transport is not, I think, in the foreseeable future. I cannot indeed imagine that such an eventuality is ever likely to materialise, and I would ask those who have a tendency to talk glibly about vast modern argosies of the air; and to regard ships as already becoming obsolescent, to remember sober facts.
  Let us take the hypothetical but quite probable case of 7,500 tons of freight having to be shifted 1,000 miles. It could fit quite comfortably into the average merchant ship, but, if one were to use Dakota aircraft for the purpose these Dakota aircraft, placed nose to tail, would stretch from this House to Oxford, and the petrol they would require, if the two gallon tins were placed side by side would stretch from here to Dundee. I would call the attention of the House to those facts, and would add that, so long as there are. surface vessels on the trade routes of the world, a surface fleet will be necessary to secure their safety.
  After the 1918 war, and between the two wars, many voices were raised, and one or two of them in the House of Commons on Monday and Tuesday of this week, saying that the capital ship

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  was an obsolete type of vessel. I see nothing in the naval history of this war that would lead us to that conclusion. Admittedly, the use of aircraft carriers and shore-based aircraft has changed tactics of naval warfare, and nobody will deny that the aircraft carrier is now the recognised core of the modem Navy, but we must remember that it is a most vulnerable target, requiring much anti-aircraft protection and long range fire power which cannot be borne by the carrier itself.
  The First Lord has said that the British people are determined that the work of the United Nations shall be successful this time, and, to see that it is successful, we are determined that the British Navy shall make a full contribution to it. This is no new job of work for the Royal Navy, and I should like to remind the House of what the Foreign Secretary said on 7th November last, when he remarked how cheaply we had policed the world for 300 years with the British Navy. The right hon. Gentleman also said that he did not like to see police or military forces regarded as being only weapons of offence. How right the right hon. Gentleman is. The British Navy, as a police force, is a benevolent, not a malevolent power, and I am certain that the Royal Navy will do much to bring this home to the nations of the world in their present state of suspicion in these early post war years.
  One of the best contributions we can make to the cause of international peace is to see that if our Fleet is to be cut down to a quarter of wartime strength it is at least as well equipped on the scientific side as modern research can make it. I was very interested to hear what the First Lord said about scientific research today, and I am sure the Committee welcomes with me, the substantial sums allotted in the White Paper to the scientific services. I hope they will be enough; if they are not enough, I am sure we can rely on the First Lord to see that he has no hesitation in asking for more.
  There is one other field of research which I think makes for efficiency and which I should like to mention to the First Lord and the House this afternoon. It is the research in personnel. My right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) raised this subject in. the House on Monday, and perhaps I may be allowed to enlarge
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  upon it so far as the Navy is concerned. I know the Admiralty have started this work, but what I am after is to try to get that work enlarged. Modern seaman-ship, as the House knows, is a highly technical job, and, while pure seamanship has lost none of its skill, the devices which the seaman has to operate grow more and more complex every day. Therefore, this problem develops into three problems—the selection of the right man for the job, the training of that man, and the design of equipment so that the least skill is required to operate it efficiently.
  Before the war the United States to a great degree and this country to a large but lesser degree used the psychological test in the selection and training of men and women in industry. Enormous strides have been made to develop this particular science, and this country cannot afford to lag behind America. Whether a boy should be trained as a radio operator or a stoker, a seaman or a cook, should not, I think, be left wholly to the boy's own unguided choice or to the particular drafting requirements of the moment, especially when methods are available for finding out the line upon which the boy's mind is moving and developing. It has been proved, over and over again, that men selected by these methods are happier in their occupations and more efficient than those selected by other means. Selection by means of the psychological test has saved an untold number of misfits, and training methods have been invented which minimise the amount of time needed to train a man for a given job. In the design of equipment, whether gun-sights, turret-training or engine-room controls, greater accuracy and less effort have been attained through research and experiment. I earnestly beg the First Lord and the Admiralty to extend the opportunity also to research in this human problem. Not only will it save public expenditure, but it will result in an even more efficient Fleet and in contented men who will find more satisfaction in their work.
  The First Lord has produced abundant proof today that the Navy has deserved well of Parliament. I should like to add our tribute from these benches in this Debate on the first Navy Estimates in a world at peace, to the regular members of the Service, to the reservists who

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  bore the brunt of the first months of the war at sea, and to all ranks. This House expresses its greatest admiration for their unswerving devotion to duty at sea, on shore and in the air.
  5.36 p.m.
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: I would like to add my tribute to that which has just been paid by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Hereford (Mr. J. P. L. Thomas) and to say, as he said, that the First Lord has indeed presented, once again, a most encouraging report to this House. He stands well with the officers and men of the Navy. That was proved pretty conclusively during the General Election—if I may refer the House to a somewhat notorious incident at Chatham—when a certain noble Lord was addressing an election meeting there and when he tried to draw a distinction between the position of the present First Lord and the previous First Lord.
  To turn to something more serious, I was very glad to hear that the First Lord is quite determined to have all the money he can for technical research. It is a very important side of the Navy's work. I hope the Admiralty will learn the technical lessons in ship construction and armament which the war in its unfolding has taught. Very much, too, I think, can be learned from ex-enemy sources. We should not neglect those. Whatever may be said about the cutting out of big ships in favour of smaller ones, we should do well to bear in mind that there was very little, or comparatively little, alteration, except in armaments, between those which we had in the 1914–18 war and those which served us so well during the last six years. If other Powers possess these big ships, then, it seems to me, we must also maintain them.
  The First Lord touched upon the effect of the atom bomb regarding the future of the Navy. The atom bomb, in my opinion, is not likely to be quite such a potent force in dictating the types of ships we should regularly maintain as, for example, is the development in the use of rockets. In all this we ought to rely on evolution in the light of relevant factors, rather than on any hasty and radical changes. The process of evolution—and perhaps this is even more im-
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  portent—must be applied to raising the. standard of conditions for the personnel in the Royal Navy. The Royal Navy should be based on the whole of our people, irrespective of background and irrespective of geography. I am sorry we have not drawn more of our regulars from the Midlands and the North of England. The sea is in our very blood, and the steadfastness and dependence of outlook of the Northerner should, in the past, have had more opportunity for expression among the regulars of the Royal Navy. Just as this House is a reflection of every facet of our national life today, so the Royal Navy should be the same. Its personnel, which have been such splendid ambassadors throughout the war, should be able to minor and represent from the top to the bottom all phases of feeling and impulse in our people. The Navy must, for a very long time to come, be the very heartbeat of a united nation.
  Very much has been done already towards achieving the objective I am dealing with—the raising of the standards of the personnel in the Service— but I still think a great deal can and should bed one. I look to the First Lord to encourage such organisations as the Sea Cadet Corps. I have a very fine Corps in my own constituency, and there is no doubt that the Royal Navy inculcates a sense of self-respect in the people who join it and in the people who are trained for it, which is most valuable and which they are unable to get in any other way in quite the same manner. A self-reliant comradeship is bred in the Navy as it is not bred in any other walk of life. There is a feeling of community service which is extremely valuable, and the idea to serve others before thinking of one's self, which is the one thing worth while developing in our respective walks of life.
  My last point is to urge on the First Lord the need for the closest collaboration with the Dominions with regard to naval strategy and policy as it affects the English-speaking people all over the world. Indeed, one might hope that the forthcoming conference of Dominion representatives in London might be used as an occasion for consultation about this very vital, question. Never again must it be said that we have. let down New Zealand and Australia, for example, as it was said at the time when things went

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  so badly in the Far East. To Canada we owe the very greatest debt of gratitude for her magnificent efforts in connection with shipbuilding. The views of the Dominions, therefore, should be carefully sounded and sifted in connection with all developments of strategy and policy. I will never subscribe to the view that there is. any malaise developing in the Royal Navy. In fact, it may interest the House to know that so far as complaints are concerned—and we all have a great many of them in our postbags—the number I have had from the Navy is infinitesimal compared with the number I have had from R.A.F. and Army personnel.
  Mr. Keenan: Was not the hon. Gentleman a commissioned officer in the Navy, and might that not explain why he has not had many complaints?
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: I was a commissioned officer in the Royal Navy, and in the course of my activities there I came across many hundreds, and even thousands, of ratings who knew me on an extremely friendly footing. I am sure that they are the last people to hold back from writing about any specific grievance or complaint if they felt like doing so.
  Wing-Commander Millington: Is it not true that, although the hon. Gentleman represents a town where naval personnel are stationed, there is an enormous number of R.A.F. and Army personnel, and does not the hon. Gentleman agree that, if he represented a town where there was a naval port, he would be very likely to have a much larger number of letters from the Navy?
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: I do not entirely accept that suggestion, because the personnel in the Navy are drawn from all over the country in these days, and a great many of my constituents are serving in the Royal Navy. I think it is most unworthy to spread around any suggestion that there is general dissatisfaction developing in the Royal Navy. Some things are wrong, of course. We know there are things which are wrong in every organisation. What we have to do is to improve conditions, and for that I am pleading with the First Lord. We have every reason to be proud of the part which the Royal Navy has played, and I
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  would add that I have even had correspondence from people who have been demobilised asking if I can help them get back into the Service. That shows that when they are demobilised they feel they have lost something extremely valuable. I am not advocating that everyone should remain in the Royal Navy for the rest of his life, but I stress this because there is a tendency in some quarters to disparage what is being done to help people. There is also an attempt to pour cold water on the efforts of those who are whole-heartedly determined to try to help the men in the ranks and provide better conditions for them in the Service. The Royal Navy has, indeed, done much to bring peace to the world, and, in the uncertain days which lie ahead, and until our civilisation is far enough advanced to banish all armaments in the world, it can act as a benign protector of the peace which it has done so much to bring.
  5.45 p.m.
  Commander Maitland: If during the course of my remarks I deal in detail with some technical points, I apologise to the Committee, but I do not apologise very much because the First Lord has been in Office so successfully and for so long that I am certain he understands the technical points very well, and he will recognise, in the details, points which affect the wellbeing of the Service.

  The first point to which I would like to draw the attention of the First Lord is the question of the construction of our ships in the future, and the machines with which they are fitted. During the war we had a large number of machines—instruments and so forth—which were very well designed, but there was no time to design them so that they were manipulated by the minimum number of men. There is a tremendous field for research there, in order that we may design our ships and the machines which go inside them so that they cap be manipulated by the minimum number of men. If that is done, it follows that the machines themselves will probably be more complicated and, therefore they will require more base maintenance. At first sight, therefore, it does not seem to be a very good point for saving manpower. It is true that it will save enormously in space, which may result in better living conditions and better health conditions, but it does appear at

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  first sight that it will not result in a saving in manpower There is, therefore, a second point involving a staff requirement from a very high source, and that is to introduce more standardisation and more interchangeability between the basic parts of the various machines which go to make up a battleship From my experience during the war. 1 know there is a tremendous field for research in that direction, but 1 would warn the First Lord that he is bound to meet a certain amount of opposition from his own colleagues, and possibly from the public and Members of this House, because it is not a field in which the expenditure of money shows a very good result at first. However, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that if he perseveres it will be a tremendous investment for the Navy.
  I now wish to turn to the main part of my speech, which concerns the White Paper on the new code of pay. If I criticise it—and I shall criticise it very severely—Iam sure the First Lord will realise, that it is in the best interests of the Service that I do so, because I realise how hard it is to produce a code of pay which satisfies everybody. The war in the Pacific and in the Atlantic is over, and we have won it; we have now to start a far harder war against the Treasury, and I am not at all certain that the foe we have just defeated is not the fairer fighter of the two. Any new code of pay which is introduced for the benefit of the Navy must cover three essentials. First, it must create a career which will attract—I repeat that word "attract "—the right type of men. Secondly, it must be subservient to the efficiency of the Navy. Thirdly, and perhaps most important of all, it must be immediately adaptable to wartime conditions. I do not think Command Paper No. 6715 does satisfy those three conditions. The Navy is being fitted into a pay code rather than that a pay code is being arranged for the Navy. The Navy has done better than to deserve to be made a Paymaster's holiday.
  My chief complaint is the apparently almost deliberate attempt to offer no incentive to initiative and leadership or to the ready acceptance of responsibility. Neither does it offer any reward or encouragement to men who have consistently observed the honour of the Navy and taken great pride in their con-
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  duct. I would like to give some examples of what I mean, though I am afraid they may be somewhat detailed. Let me take an example which has come across my own service experience, not once but on many occasions, namely, the question of a chief ordnance artificer. I was a gunnery officer. In every ship the gunnery officer has a team of ordnance artificers upon whose good work depends very largely the standard of efficiency and maintenance of the weapons of war. That team is led by a chief ordnance artificer, and on his capacity depends very largely the capability of the whole team. As I think the First Lord realises, in the past we have had great difficulty in getting the right type of young artificer to go in for the difficult course to make himself into a chief ordnance artificer. This new pay scheme cannot be said to help that in any way, because under the new scheme it is possible that a young chief ordnance artificer of the right type, the sort of man we want, will be receiving less pay than an ordnance artificer second class or first class, who either has not taken the trouble—and it is a trouble—to qualify as, chief ordnance artificer or has not been good enough for it and could not hold the job down if he had it.
  Next I want to know why—and I would be only too pleased to be told I am wrong —the good conduct medal has been abolished, with the gratuity attached to it. That is something that is very highly appreciated by sailors. Also, in the short term service engagements which are contemplated in the White Paper, why is it that a man who is a "King's hard bargain "gets exactly the same gratuity as a man who has worked hard and got a continuous "V.G." certificate. Before I leave this point, I would like to ask why there is so little difference in pension between a chief petty officer, who has taken every opportunity to gain promotion and to be fitted for it, and the rather less praiseworthy seaman, or petty officer who has stuck on the way up. The man who does not get any further than leading seaman, but who gets leading seaman at a fairly young age—and there are many such cases in the Navy—gets only 2d. less in pension than a chief petty officer who has borne all the heat and burden of the day. I do not think that is right. The Navy is an adventurous career, and the great Admirals—Drake and Nelson—I knew he would come into it—did not go to sea for

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  a quiet life. They served their country and succeeded because they had energy, character and inborn leadership. Surely, those are virtues. Why are they no longer rewarded? I can see no reason for that.
  I now come to the question of the non-substantive rates, a thing which very few people who are not intimately connected with the Navy fully understand. On page 8, in paragraph 18, these are just swept away on the principle that, now we have a stabilised rate of pay, they are no longer necessary. I want to explain. to the Committee why I think that, far from being not necessary, they are essential to the Navy. The whole Navy, as far as the seamen's branch is concerned, is manned on the principle of technical non-substantive rates. Here are some questions I should like to have answered. Is it proposed that all ordinary seamen are to be able to pass a third class rate? They could not do it before the war. I think about eight per cent. used to fail. A third class rate is a high standard nowadays, and the rate is becoming even more difficult. Are we going to lower the standard of the third class rate, or what is going to happen? Let us consider for a moment the quarter bill of our newest battleship mentioned by the First Lord, H.M.S. "Vanguard." In H.M.S. "Van-guard" the whole quarter bill, as the Committee will understand, is arranged on the technical needs of fighting the ship. Substantive ratings really drag along in the rear. That is how it has been done in the past. In H.M.S. "Van-guard" there have to be 76 chief petty officers, 57 first class rates, 79 leading seamen and 169 second class rates.
  One of two things has to be done. The first thing is to have more chief petty officers and leading seamen to cover the number of non-substantive rates. That is obviously going to be more expensive to the Vote on personnel, and it is going to be extremely wasteful. Therefore, I do not think that is very likely to happen. The other way is to write down the position of the non-substantive rates. It may be said to them," You have been doing a job which was a first-class rate. You are now no longer doing that; you are doing a second-class rate job." That is pure cheating. That is not getting the rate for the job, a very proper principle, which, I understand, this Committee up-
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  holds. If by a stroke of the pen one writes down to second class the job which the man is doing, I can assure the Committee that is something the Navy will not appreciate, to say the very least. I had a good deal to do with the very difficult problem of drafting during the war. It was terribly hard to keep the ships manned with the right number of men doing the right kinds of job. It is now to be made fantastically difficult, and I cannot see how, in the strain of mobilisation at the beginning of a new war, it is to be possible for the drafting officers to compete with their problems.
  The port numbers are made up on a non-substantive basis. In gunnery alone there are six different types of rates. Every one of those rates has three classes, and the numbers in those rates and classes differ from class to class. This means that there may be a man in a second class rate who, because promotion in his rate is very slow, may be working next to a man who is not nearly so good but is, nevertheless, in the next substantive class above him. Men of entirely different calibre may be working alongside each other; one man, who is known to be a good man, may be kept down to being a petty officer, while another, who is known to be not so good, is a chief petty officer. I think it is an important point.
  Mr. Alexander: I am very much interested in all this, but I think my hon. and gallant Friend should remember that it will be the intention, in all these matters, to educate the men and get them to qualify for their different rates. In that way, only those who are qualified will get promotion. I think that in the end it will give a great encouragement to men to try to qualify. We were advised by the Naval Staff.
  Commander Maitland: I am afraid I have to disagree slightly with the First Lord. I am very surprised to hear that he has been advised on this by the Naval Staff. I wanted to ask him who was consulted when these matters were discussed and who was on the Committee. Was, for example, the captain of H.M.S. "Excellent," or the captain of H.M.S. "Vernon "consulted?
  Mr. Alexander: The Fourth Sea Lord.
  Commander Maitland: Was he a permanent member?
  Mr. Alexander: He attended whenever required.
  Commander Maitland: Was it discussed with the Second Sea Lord, who is responsible for the welfare of all men?
  I turn with some relief to the more human side of this discussion and I want to make a brief plea for the pensioner. In this code there is no mention of any retrospective assistance for the pensioner. There are men who have just left the Navy, who have borne the heat and burden of two wars. They were young Able Seamen during the last war, they went on and became chief petty officers, and had just retired before the war. They came back and served again, and it is only just that we should improve their pension. They are still liable to recall and service in the Navy. It is true that they got their pensions while they were serving, but they had already won that in their previous service. Why should they not have a bit more? It is equitable and proper that they should.
  I particularly want to appeal to the First Lord on behalf of the warrant officers who have been promoted to ward-room rank. During this war I served alongside a very fine officer who had actually reached the rank of lieut.-commander on the active list, coming up the hard way—and those of us who have served in the Navy know it is a hard way. They are first warrant officers, then commissioned warrant officers and then lieutenants. When the officer to whom I have referred retires, unless something is done about it, he will get a retiring pension of £280 a year, while the lieut.-commander who is passed over, who may not have done very well, leaves with a pension of £475. That is not right, and the Navy for many years has bitterly resented it.
  Commander Pursey: That criticism does not apply to the Navy. It was a mistake made before the war when a Tory Government, and a Tory First Lord, introduced a scheme whereby these warrant officers, instead of being put on the cadet officer's rate of retired pay, were put on the Royal Naval Reserve Officers' rate of pay.
  Commander Maitland: Today I am more a naval officer than I am a Tory, and whatever Government were in power
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  I should have raised this point. I hope the First Lord will put it right.
  In conclusion, I appeal to him to reconsider some of the points I have raised. They are not just little points; there is substance in them. We all know the great affection the right hon. Gentleman has for the Navy, and, incidentally, the affection that the Navy has for him, and it would be a great pity—I know it would nearly break his heart—if the Navy got a raw deal through any deed of his. He will only enhance his great reputation if he takes time to consider these matters, which are affecting the whole wellbeing of the Navy very deeply indeed.
  6.7 p.m.
  Major Bruce: I have the honour to be one of the three Members for the Empire's premier naval. base, Portsmouth, and I am fortified this afternoon by seeing in the House my two colleagues, the hon. and gallant Member for South Portsmouth (Sir J. Lucas) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Portsmouth (Captain Snow) to give me moral support. The naval traditions of our city are well known, and need no elaboration in this Committee. It is sufficient to say that the whole life of our city, its culture and its customs, are bound up with the sea, the craft that sail the sea, and the personnel who man them; while in the background are the men and women in the Royal Dockyards who keep our fleet in proper working order. During the war, the Committee may recollect, my city paid its price for being the Empire's premier naval base. "Pompey" was a nightly target for the Luftwaffe, and in common with London and Coventry it has suffered much. But never once did the dockyard service, or the city, fail the Navy which it serves. It was from Portsmouth that the invasion fleet sailed for France in those fateful days of June, 1944, and the world knows that in that colossal operation the Navy's part was heroically and magnificently discharged.
  The Committee may think it a little peculiar that the first naval port of the Empire should be represented here by three officers from the Army. I myself, have the honour to follow in succession to three admirals, including that famous and gallant officer the late Admiral Lord Keyes, whose memory will be for ever cherished, not only in my city but

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  wherever the simple sacrifices of sea-going life are honoured in the world. Just as Service matters tend to become more and more a combined operation, so in social, cultural and political affairs there tends to be a greater sympathy between the Services, and wider appreciation of each other's problems.
  The Navy needs no praise from me. The deeds of its personnel in all quarters of the globe have received the rightful praise which is their due. But it seems to me that the finest tribute this nation can pay to these gallant gentlemen, officers and ratings alike, is to ensure that the conditions under which they work and live are made ever more worthy of the high traditions that they themselves have upheld. Naval personnel are not given to complaining. It is part of their tradition as the silent Service to do their job, however difficult their conditions are. Too often, in the past, has the country taken advantage of this naval stoicism, by refraining from granting to its personnel those conditions of service to which it is legitimately entitled. No greater tribute can be paid to the sailor than by stating the fact that despite the most adverse circumstances our Fleet's fighting proficiency is second to none in the world.
  The peacetime size and composition of our Navy have yet to be determined, though as the Prime Minister said on 4th March, its personnel, at any rate in 1946, is 175,000. I think I share with the majority of Members of this Committee the hope that war will never again come to our country. I share the hope of the majority of this Committee that it may be possible for the United Nations under Article 20 of the Charter to secure the regulation of world armaments, in the uneasy years that lie ahead. But the fact of the matter is we have our obligations under Article43 of the Charter, wherein we are required to enter into agreements to provide for the United Nations those Forces in personnel and armaments it must have to carry out its task as a world organisation. It is, perhaps, reasonable to think that when our time comes to make those agreements our contribution from these islands may be principally a naval contribution. We have long skill and unsurpassed experience in the conduct of naval warfare, and it does seem to me that our naval contribution to the Forces of the United Nations might constitute our principal
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  effort. It will be a very proud day for me, and many other people in my city, when we see the Fleet sailing from Portsmouth under the flag of the United Nations and under the Union Jack, on the duties which, in due course, will be allotted to it by the United Nations.
  It is up to us, in my view, to provide the most efficient instrument for the use of the United Nations, and for this purpose adequate personnel are required. Are we really convinced that conditions in the Senior Service are such as will attract those young men in our country who have always been its sinews? If we are, there is little more to debate upon, except the technical composition of our Fleet. I should like, however, to offer my humble and inexpert opinion as a member of a sister Service that conditions within the Senior Service are in need of considerable improvement. I am fortified in this respect by the opinions, based on the long experience of my numerous friends on both decks whom I have been privileged to know during the last six months. The people of our country, who take such pride in our Fleet, are well acquainted with our mighty ships, their armaments, their beautiful curved lines.
  But I would ask the Committee to go deeper than that, to go into the heart of the ships, which are not only instruments of war but are, also, the homes of those who serve in them. I recently had the opportunity, at the invitation of a member of the lower deck, to go aboard one of our latest battleships. I should like to give the Committee some of the impressions I formed and some of the conclusions that arose to my mind, inescapably, from those impressions. I should like, at the same time, to make it quite clear that although I am afraid much of what I say will emphasise the difference between classes in the Navy, I do not wish to imply for one moment that there is any ill feeling between the lower deck and the upper deck in that Service. To my mind, that is absolutely out of the question. The first thing that strikes one on entering a battleship of vast size and wandering about it, is that when you are in the quarters occupied by the officers of the ship you can walk upright; but, in my own experience, the moment I entered into the quarters which were occupied by the ratings£and I am making allowance for my, perhaps, rather

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  unusual height—I was obliged to bend nearly double to go about from place to place. And then the sleeping space. So far as I was able to find out, every officer had been provided with adequate sleeping space—not, perhaps, commodious, but a comfortable bunk and a reasonable amount of room in which to move about.
  The wartime complement of the ship is 1,650, and the peacetime complement is in the region of 1,200. The ratings have to sleep if they can in hammocks in the mess decks, if, that is, there is any room for them in which to sling their hammocks. In fact, in a very large number of instances, the ratings in these big battleships have to sleep on the plates and often in the corridors. Even chief petty officers, who are reckoned, quite rightly, to be the backbone of the Navy, were crowded, some 30 of them, into a small mess which was about twice the size of an average civilian sitting room, normally accommodating three people. And then the recreation space. I was informed that the officers had large ward rooms; not too large, I suppose, but large enough for ordinary civilised life, and large enough for their various recreations. The ratings, however, were limited to recreation space which could not possibly accommodate, even on a three-shift basis, the personnel on board the ship. Then on the hygiene side. In this battleship I found that for 1,500 men there were 30 latrines, or "seamen's heads "as they call them. I do not think that is adequate at all. No argument, to my mind, is convincing which says as an answer to these problems, purely that armaments and radar requirements prevent the allotment of more living space to the ratings. I do not wish to make invidious comparisons between the navies of our Allies, but the American Navy appears largely to have solved this problem, and has far more recreation space and far more adequate living space and far better living conditions—that is, at least, in certain ships of the American Navy—
  Mr. Alexander:Not in large ships of the American Navy built under the Treaty. May I point out to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that I have been to sea in these American ships? I do not know whether he has. They carry a far larger number of men. They have far larger crews than we.
  Major Bruce:I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I would admit straight away that I have not had any experience in American ships, but I have reliable reports which indicate to me that, in general, the living conditions of the ratings in, at any rate, some of the American ships, are far better than those in our own. The fault seems to me to lie in the manner in which ships are designed. I speak here with an absolutely inexpert mind—
  Mr. Guy: Before the hon. and gallant Gentleman leaves the subject of amenities, could he say whether, in the instances he saw of the officers' quarters and of the lower deck quarters, he saw any sheets?
  Major Bruce: I did not see any sheets. The first requirement in. design must be to make a ship a fighting unit, and first regard must be paid to its speed, armament and durability. But after these requirements have been satisfied, then the officers appear to have their traditional comfort—and I do not begrudge them that —while the ratings have the rest. I suggest that there should be revised methods for allocating available space on a more equitable basis. I am making no complaint at all against officers of the Navy; it is not their fault if anything has to be done; it has to be done by the Board of Admiralty. Another point which strikes me relates to destroyers. In a destroyer, with 12 officers and a complement of 150ratings, each officer has a cabin containing a bunk, a desk, an armchair, a chest of drawers and. in addition, the officers have a fairly commodious wardroom, whereas the ratings just have the mess deck where there is considerable over-crowding. In addition, each of the 12 officers has a wash bowl, whereas the ratings, I am informed, have to be content with six. There are other differences in clothing.
  The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Walter Edwards): Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman tell us the name of the ship to which he is referring?
  Commander Noble:Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman bear in mind that there are no offices on destroyers, and that the reason why each officer has a desk in his cabin, is that it is there where he has to do all his work?
  Major Bruce: I have no desire to over-paint the picture. The name of the destroyer concerned is H.M.S. "Zodiac." On reading the White Paper on the postwar code of pay, allowances and Service pensions, I observed, in paragraph 20, these words:
  " It will also be necessary to review the wartime scale, and provisions of various amenities at public expense."
  These words filled me with a little misgiving, because, in the context in which they appear, it may be that wartime amenities are to be cut down. I hope that we can obtain an assurance from the First Lord that, if conditions are to be reviewed, they will be reviewed upwards and not downwards. I was pleased to hear the remarks of the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. J. P. L. Thomas), because it seems to me that we have a tremendous amount of leeway to make up, on the question of naval barracks. Too often in the past have our naval personnel, when they go into port—and very often they do not return to their own portx2014;have to rely on hostels provided by voluntary bodies. No one doubts the excellent intentions of these charitable bodies who have done so much to alleviate the conditions under which our personnel have to live, but it should be borne in mind that many of our ratings do not like to be reminded, in some of the hostels, of their great indebtedness to their benefactors by large plaques which appear on the walls over their beds. Responsibility for the provision of such accommodation rests clearly on the Board of Admiralty, and I welcome the assurance by the First Lord that he will press for the greatest possible priority in the provision of such accommodation.

  I welcome the new pay and allowance code which has been recently introduced. No one in this House, or in the country, would contend that our naval forces should not be paid more in time of war than in peace. It is an excellent thing that the new pay code rates have effected drastic simplification and revision. I consider that the position of the petty officer needs to be reconsidered. I welcome the assurance which the First Lord gave in connection with those of certain ranks on 30th June—their pay in my view should be brought more into line with comparative ranks in the Army and Air Force. We say that the chief petty officer
  578
  is the backbone of the Navy, and I hope that the First Lord will not only remember that sentiment, but will secure more adequate opportunities for promotion from the lower deck. One thing which troubles all Service personnel—and I know from my experience it troubles personnel in the Navy—is their position in relation to Service pensions. A short time ago I asked the Secretary of State for War whether he could clarify the position, because there was an impression that ratings and other ranks, who became entitled by regular service to Service pensions, were likely to have their pensions reduced if they contracted for a State national pension. If that is so, it is very unjust. A person who contracts for pension under the National Insurance scheme should be entitled to the benefit.
  I propose to touch upon another matter which has a bearing, not only upon serving sailors, but upon their wives. There is an impression that the method of allotting foreign and home service is inequitable, and that the methods employed for drafting are unsatisfactory to meet current conditions. There is an impression, too, that these methods can be considerably improved. The Committee may be aware that a deputation on this subject came from my city recently to see the Admiralty. It was a unique occasion, and I do not think any such deputation has been received before. I am grateful to the First Lord, who made arrangements to receive them so graciously, for the many assurances he gave—assurances to which I think they were entitled. The Navy does not ask for pampering, but at a time when the standard of living and the march of social progress in the world is advancing, the men of the Fleet look to the Board of Admiralty, almost Nelson fashion, to do its duty by them.
  6.29 p.m.
  Commander Noble: I was tempted to follow the hon. and gallant Member for North Portsmouth (Major Bruce) into his argument about accommodation for officers and men, but I feel sure that I can leave that matter safely in the hands of the First Lord Perhaps I can contain myself until the Army Estimates are being considered. May I associate myself with the congratulations to the First Lord, expressed so well by my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford

  579
  (Mr. J. P. L. Thomas), who spoke first from this side of the Committee? I feel that it is a great satisfaction to us all that the First Lord, who was at the wheel of the Admiralty throughout the rough weather and tempestuous seas of the war, is now able to carry on his great task in the calmer seas of peace. One of our great national songs starts with the words "Some talk of Alexander. "I think that we might say that those words would be just as appropriate in "Rule Britannia" as they are in "The British Grenadiers."
  I do not wish to dwell on the future of the Navy. Suffice it to say that so long as our trade sails the seas in ships, it is the Navy's duty and proud privilege to defend it. I maintain that we must have an adequate Navy, and its size must vary with what one might call the blood pressure of the international situation. We must, therefore, have an adequate, active Navy, an adequate reserve, and adequate forces laid up. On the subject of combined operations, it was suggested from this side of the Committee in the recent defence Debate, that if the Admiralty had to make cuts on account of economy, that landing ships and craft might be the first to feel the cut. No doubt, the hon. Gentleman who winds up the Debate will say something about this new arm of the Service. From personal experience, I can assure the House that the Navy fully appreciate the significance of this new arm. The value which it can be in peace as well as in war may not be fully appreciated. Before the war, when troops were required in a hurry at a certain place, perhaps to quell a disturbance, they would be taken in a cruiser. Now their tanks and vehicles can be carried in specially constructed ships.
  May I turn to the subject of personnel, in which I have been very interested during the 19 years I have had the honour to serve in the Royal Navy? In common with other hon. Members, I am not at all happy about the new pay code for the lower deck, which has come as a great disappointment to the men after all the publicity it was given. Other hon. Members have dealt, and no doubt will deal, with points of detail, but for the sake of my argument, I must make one or two points. Although most of the new rates and allowances are an increase on those of prewar days, there are many cases of
  580
  decreases on the existing rates. That was in some way due to the fact that the war service increment was not going to be paid. I was delighted to hear yesterday that this matter has now been reconsidered, and that where a man would lose, owing to war service increment not being paid, he will now be paid what is called a "war excess," until he has made up the money by service or promotion or perhaps by having more children. That is a step in the right direction, but it is hardly an incentive to ambition. The fact that marriage allowance is now subject to Income Tax is also a great blow to the men. Above all, I maintain that nobody should be a loser when going from one rate to the other. One point that requires great emphasis is that the new rates are to the advantage of the lower ratings at the expense of the senior. It may be said that the gap has been closed too much. The closing of the gap may be suitable in other Services—I do not know —but I do not think that it is at all suitable for the Navy. It is not, I think, the way to attract men of the type who will make senior petty officers in the future, and who have been the backbone of the Service for so long. I feel that they will leave the Service at the first opportunity, and I do not think they will be attracted to the Service in the first place.
  On the subject of senior rates, I should like to take up a point mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member for Horncastle (Commander Maitland), concerning the merging of substantive and non-substantive rates. I will try to make the picture clear, and I hope that the Committee will excuse me for going into details because I think it is a most important point. A seaman wears distinctive badges on each arm. The badges on one arm indicate the degree of responsibility which he shoulders, and the badges on the other, his technical qualifications, such as gunnery or torpedo. In the past, a man could progress on either one of these routes or along both of them. He might have nothing on one arm and quite high qualifications on the other; so it was possible for the Navy to make the proud boast that when a man was promoted to leading seaman, he was promoted because he could lead and for no other reason. Similarly, the man who did not want responsibility, and who perhaps was not suitable for responsibility, could make up his money in other ways by taking a

  581
  higher rate on the technical side. In that way one got the leader, the man who did not like machinery and who would become a great seaman; and one also got the men who were not born to lead, but whose services were invaluable. Now they are to be combined. I do not see how that will work, and I am very surprised that the Service officers agreed to it. For example, I will take a modern cruiser which is entitled to a complement of say 20 leading seamen. It may require 60 men of a certain type of gunnery rating to man the guns and armaments. Now we may find that these 60 gunnery ratings have got to be leading seamen. I do not know who will be led by them; it is a matter of doubt whether they be able to lead. I do not think that they will be leaders in the true sense of the word, and of the type we had before. I think that these points and the changes in pay may lead to great fundamental changes in the type of man attracted to the Navy.
  I will not say a great deal about the officers' pay code announced yesterday, as it requires considerable study. So far as I can see at present, it is a pleasant surprise, but I do not think that it goes far enough. I hope that it will not stop there, and that the matter will be kept under review. I am sure that we all agree that an income of about £800 a year at the age of 30 is not at all bad, but I hope every one will bear in mind the commitments of a young naval officer. He has to be prepared to go abroad at short notice, to hot climates or cold climates; he has to, have expensive uniform and accoutrements, and plain clothes suitable for all occasions. He must be prepared to go abroad without his wife and family, because, on many stations, he is unable to have his family with him, and to get them there is most expensive. Transport, of course, is now extremely difficult. If he has a shore job in this country, he wants to take the rare opportunity—it is a rare opportunity for naval officers—to live with his wife and family. This entails another move of his home, and should it be to London, as in the case of officers serving at the Admiralty, it is a very expensive move and at the present time a highly problematical one. This "war excess" is also being paid to officers on the "rising tide "principle. I hope that in this case, as well, it will be reviewed, because it cannot encourage ambition. I feel that no one on these new rates should
  582
  be a loser, and there is no doubt, at present, some officers will lose.
  May I ask two questions of the hon. Gentleman who is to wind up? One is with regard to the payment of qualification pay to Army officers, which is mentioned in the White Paper. The pay is for staff college qualifications, or university honours degree of special use to the Army. I see no reference to that in the naval section, which prompts me to ask if naval officers are also eligible for extra pay if they go through their own staff college. The next point is in regard to naval officers who specialise in gunnery, torpedo and the like, for which extra pay is not now to be given. I ask whether in the new system it is envisaged that there will be the same volunteers for the extra responsibilities and the extra hard work, without the extra 2s. 6d. a day. I do not think there will be.
  May I refer next to the subject of publicity? When we are able to offer really good pay for officers and men comparable with the civilian rates, in relation to their work and the responsibilities that they bear, let us make sure that every boy, every parent and every school master is fully aware of the conditions. Do not let it be forgotten that he boy's enthusiasm for the sea means a very great deal to the Navy and a very great deal in his career.
  I should like to say in conclusion a little about minesweeping, to which the First Lord has already referred. It was stated in the recent statement on defence that minesweeping would go on until the end of the year. That will mean that men engaged on this hazardous work will have been doing it for one and a half years after the end of the war. Let it be borne in mind that many of them now and in the year to come will be new men as demobilisation goes on, and that only a few will have the experience of the war veterans. I hope it will be possible to recognise these men in some way, by some award, perhaps of the General Service Medal. To sum up, it is accepted that we want an adequate Navy, and we hope the good constructors, research and modern science will make it materially of the first order. There is absolutely no excuse if they do not, but unless we ensure that the conditions are attractive, compared with those of the civilian, I do not think we shall get the men we

  583
  want in view of the unsettled life of the sailor and the time spent by him away from home. I think the experience of both men and their families during this war, when perhaps the periods of separation were longer than ever before, will have some considerable bearing on this aspect. I close by quoting the first two lines of an old verse, written I believe in the days of Queen Anne and probably not unknown to many Members of this Committee:
  "God and our sailors we adore, When danger threatens; not before."
  6.44 p.m.
  Mr. Keenan: I am a little dismayed at this Debate on the Navy Estimates. It is rather different from the impression which I had of such occasions before I became a Member of Parliament. The impression I formerly had was that someone moved a reduction in the amount of the Estimate to call attention to some particular factor. I am not at all certain in regard to matters in which I am particularly interested whether the Estimate is going to be sufficient to cover these needs in the coming year, or whether it will prove too much, of a lack of volunteers on whom to spend it. I happen to come from a town which, though not a naval port, has seen a lot of the Navy. I represent one of the Liverpool constituencies, but I live in the next borough —Bootle—where we had the opportunity of meeting a lot of naval personnel in the war I think Bootle was one of the most heavily bombed towns in the country due to the fact that naval craft were always in the docks of the borough. I had the opportunity last year of visiting some of the ships, because I was in office at the town hall when we invited the ships, companies to spend the night with us so as to give them some expression of our thanks for what they were doing, and what they would still be called upon to do. As mayor of that borough, I also went down to the ships and I must say that I saw nothing wrong with them. To me the conditions seemed to be all right, but then I was nearly always in the ward room. I did not visit anywhere else. I can truthfully say that many of the ratings whom I knew personally, came to me, because they knew me years ago. They told me how glad they were
  584
  to see me mayor, and then they told me what they thought about the Navy and the conditions under which they lived.
  I was rather concerned to hear what the First Lord said about the American Navy. He denied what was said by the hon. and gallant Member for North Portsmouth (Major Bruce) that conditions in the American Navy were much better. I know a few of the boys who have been to America and that is what they have told me. I have a letter here which I understand was sent to the "Daily Express." Whether it was published or not I do not know. If the First Lord or the Civil Lord want to know anything that is in this letter, from which I will quote, or the name and address of the party concerned, they can have it. Amongst other things this rating said:
  " At sea, on many occasions, as leading seaman, I had to take aft samples of food which few could eat despite empty stomachs. On these occasions various evasive moves were made by those who should have known better, but often the complaints had to be admitted as justified. There was no hope of improvement. For three months I was aboard ship daily eating bread made from sour flour. There is no limit to the number of men to be crammed into a small space. I am not speaking only of life at sea now. On ship and on shore I have seen almost unbelievable over-crowding with its attendant ill-health. I have experienced the American way of housing their ratings, having lived in barracks in Boston. while my ship was undergoing repairs. The difference was so great that I would require a book to do justice to a comparison."

  I am taking a few sentences from the letter, largely because the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeffington-Lodge) said he never got any letters—
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: I said very few.
  Mr. Keenan: As a result of the publicity given in the Press to a Question which I put and the answer I received, I got a lot of letters and I know that other Members of the House got many letters also, because somebody brought to light something about which naval personnel were feeling very sore. Here is an extract from another letter I received:
  " I am afraid that I share the common view that complaints are so much waste of time and there is a very real fear of victimisation for complainers "—
  Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: I do not know whether my hon. Friend is aware of it, but all complaints are most carefully investigated by the commanding officer, so that when he talks about victimisation he is entirely wrong.
  Mr. Keenan: If my hon. Friend will let me finish reading this letter, I will say a few words to him about that. The letter goes on
  " I also feel that I am wasting my time writing this, but I feel strongly about it, and I wish you every success in your efforts to clear up the ' Andrew.'—Yours sincerely, R. A. Wilson."
  Here is an extract from another letter, which I felt like reproducing because it makes some valuable suggestions. Perhaps I may be able to pass them on, with advantage, to the First Lord or the Civil Lord. It says:
  "The system of punishment by warrant officer is wrong. One man should not be allowed to send a rating to detention for three months, or less. A junior officer should decide the punishment and fate of a defaulter. It should not be allowed to be decided by the state of the C.O's kidneys."
  Because of the serious conditions in regard to discipline in the Navy, I asked the First Lord, some time ago, what was the total strength of the Navy in September, 1939, and at the end of last year. He stated that in July, 1945, there were 68,317 officers and 710,862 ratings. At the end of December there were 54,858 officers, or 13,463 less than there were five months earlier. The number of ratings had been reduced from 710,862 to 557,000, a reduction of 144,000. I asked how many officers, commissioned officers, and ratings had decided to remain in the Service, and I was told out of 13,400 officers 6,727 had volunteered to remain, and that out of 144,000 ratings only 1,694 had decided to remain. Fifty percent. of the officers had volunteered to continue, but less than 1½percent. of the ratings wished to continue to serve. That is justification for everything which I and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Portsmouth have said about conditions in the Navy.
  Bad conditions mean ill-health. I have had letters from parents complaining that their sons had contracted tuberculosis. When I asked the First Lord how many men had been invalided out of the Navy with pulmonary tuberculosis he gave me the astonishing information that 8,144 had been so discharged from September, 1939, to the end of the war. That justifies all that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Portsmouth said about conditions in ships, and we know they are worse in the smaller ships. We have lately been talking about conscrip-
  586
  tion. I hope it will not be necessary but, being a realist, I share the view that our Services must be retained at a high level until we can afford to reduce them. But it will not do to have discipline such as there was in Nelson's time. That must be altered. I am assured by those who have served in the Navy that it has not been altered since Nelson's time. Those in the Navy now know that as well as I do. The Navy is the silent Service for which, up to now, men have been obtained by conscription. The Government will not get men to volunteer—
  Captain Marsden: Is the hon. Member aware that up to the war the Royal Navy was manned by volunteers, and that there was no conscription?
  Mr. Keenan: They were caught. Moreover, poverty entered into the question. When I was young the Government had to depend on getting Irishmen to join the Services. Poverty drove them in; it will not drive them in today. Unless conditions are made worthy of the great Service which it is, the Government will not get conscripts to go into that Service.
  6.58 p.m.
  Major Sir Jocelyn Lucas: Not being an old naval officer or having been in the Navy, I speak with some diffidence today in this Debate. But I do not wish to enter into technical questions; I wish to deal with some matters connected with welfare. First of all, may I say how much we all appreciated the inspiring speech of the First Lord? He has been in his high office practically throughout the war, and a great deal of the credit for the Navy's success must go to him. I would also like to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford (Mr. J. P. L. Thomas) on his able speech, and the part he also played during the war.
  While we all welcome the White Paper, which sets out the new pay code for the naval officers, it appears there are many who may think there is a hidden snag in the payment of Income Tax on allowances. One of the advantages of the Services before the war was that officers got certain allowances tax free. In these days of high Income Tax it makes a lot of difference if a man suddenly receives more money, only to have it immediately taken away in taxation. High taxation

  587
  is partly one of the reasons why pay has been raised. For instance, in civil life, a typist who applies for a job decides that it costs so much to live and so much more for taxation, and that she must have more money in consequence. For serving seamen, the new rates of pay are largely and rightly designed to give them a chance of making the Navy a career, at a decent rate of pay, but it does leave men like the chief petty officer with a very definite sense of grievance when they feel that their skill, hard work, and responsibility are not sufficiently recognised. The Navy requires many specialists, but if their skill is not properly rewarded there will be an increased shortage. At the present time, these men get extra time at sea, less leave, and they suffer in that their hard work and efficiency is without adequate recompense.
  It is said that the cheapest way of learning by experience is to learn by the experience of others, and, therefore, I think we might look at the Russian experiment. At the outset the Russians had the idea that all men were equal and should be paid equally. Nowadays, the worker there, if he exceeds his norm, has his pay stepped up, and the more he exceeds it, the more the rate of pay he gets. The Russians pay for skill with better wages, better houses, and increased rations. Even today we read in the newspapers that their scientists are to be paid more. That, they have found, is the only way in which they can get a satisfactory increase of skill and output. Our system of paying the N.C.O. and the petty officer more and then taking away half in Income Tax does not give sufficient encouragement and, in fact. has the opposite effect.
  There are one or two local points which I would like to discuss. First, there is the question of hotels in Southsea, which is part of the constituency I represent. All along the front there is a series of hotels and flats which were taken over by the Services during the war. quite rightly, and very conveniently in some cases, because when there is heavy bombing hotels and houses on the front are not very convenient for visitors. Now that peace has returned, however, Southsea, which has no big industry, requires some means by which it can obtain its rates, put its house in order, and enable its
  588
  citizens to make a living. The boarding houses and hotels are largely occupied by W.R.N.S., but much as we like the W.R.N.S. we should prefer to have the hotels back.
  Next there is the question of accommodation for families. At Bedhampton, for example, there are hutments, which, I understand, were requisitioned by the Navy from the local authorities. If my information is correct, they are used at present for storing surplus naval furniture. Could not this stuff be sold— it is badly needed in the country—and the hutments used to house naval families or returned to the civilian authorities to help the sadly overtaxed housing position? I imagine the case could be duplicated elsewhere.
  Thirdly, I would refer to the question of the "Pierhead jump," as I believe it is called. Leave is held up for two or three months and then orders come from some part of the world that the particular ship is needed urgently, and it sometimes happens that men who are waiting for leave have no opportunity to take it. When this happens the position should be explained to the men in order to remove some of the bitterness. Everything should be done to allow such men to have leave before they are sent off again. Another question is that of length of overseas service, which is, we believe, largely a matter of manpower depending on the numerical strength of the Navy. Both men and wives understand the necessity, but would like to have the period reduced as soon as possible.
  I am very glad that more opportunities are to be given for promotion from the lower deck. Under conscription many of the officer type— I say type, not class— are going into the ranks of the Navy, and these men should be given every opportunity to get their commissions. There are also young men, adolescents, who are going to public schools and trying for the Navy, but owing to the large number of candidates and the small number of vacancies it is about 20 to 1 against their getting a commission. They would probably make very suitable officers and if they knew there was a chance of having another shot through the ranks they would have the chance to engage in the career on which they have set their hearts, it would mean a great deal to them. My colleague the hon. and gallant Member for North Portsmouth (Major Bruce)

  589
  raised the point about pensioners who, when they leave the Service, contract in for national insurance and then find that their naval pensions suffer as a result. I think that is very hard indeed.
  I hope that His Majesty's Government will keep up the naval strength. The atomic age will bring in new methods which must affect the future design and number of ships, but whatever happens I hope that never again either by treaty or neglect shall we be forced into the position of having to trade parts of the British Empire for over age destroyers, however useful they may be at the time.
  7.8 p.m.
  Mr. Benn Levy: I want to discuss only one point tonight, and I should like to say at once that I do not want to sail into this Debate under false colours. There are in this House many hon. and gallant Members who have known the Royal Navy intimately in peace and war during most of their lives. I can claim only a few years' wartime service as a rather elderly gentleman who, in headlong flight from the rigours of civilian life in wartime, managed to insinuate himself into the Service and strove to convince himself, without much hope of convincing others, that a mere change of apparel could somehow transform the most congenital of civilians into an authentic sailor. I am, therefore, not disposed to make any very sweeping and dogmatic generalisations, but because I intend to venture upon one serious criticism which I feel rather strongly. I want to say straight away that in that short time I have conceived for the Navy, like so many better men before me, a shamelessly sentimental affection and respect.
  None the less, like all human institutions, the Navy is not faultless, and it seems to me that perhaps the most serious fault is that which relates to the whole question of promotion to commissioned rank. I want to speak very briefly on that subject. I donot think anyone will deny that, whereas merit and suitability should be the sole criteria, there exists in fact the strongest possible class bias. In my own ship from which I graduated—it was not a large ship—there were at the time only two ratings, of whom I was one, whose C.W. papers went forward together. The other was a friend of mine. He had fathered me since
  590
  the time I joined the ship, knew 10 times as much about the job as I did, had served four times as long, and was a first rate human being. But he had a humble past and, moreover, his vowel sounds did not approximate so closely to the B.B.C. ideal as mine. He was not commissioned. I was. I do not think that is an uncharacteristic example.
  Now it is quite proper that examinations should not be the sole test and that due account should be taken of the imponderables, but I do not think anyone could avoid the impression that all too often what is described as" officer-like qualities and the power of command "do in fact mean nothing more than the right kind of accent.
  This bias and this tradition are symbolised by Dartmouth. Broad and large, Dartmouth is an instrument for recruiting officers from a restricted social class. I say broad and large because, thanks to the present First Lord, this system has been modified and it is possible now for a limited infiltration. Boys outside the favoured caste are now allowed in, but only on condition that they have exceptional ability. There are 10 scholarships every term assigned to boys from grant-aided schools, and, by way of counterpoise, 10 more assigned to boys not from grant-aided schools. And there are a few additional sources of financial aid. There are special funds, for example, for sons of naval officers, and sons of clergymen of the Church of England. There is even a fund to provide financial assistance for "the younger sons of Highland gentlemen."
  What does this add up to? Leaving aside the younger sons of Highland gentlemen, it means that 25 percent. of Dartmouth entries are reserved to boys who have sufficient ability to overcome the handicap of their birth and circumstances. Another 25 per cent. are assigned to boys who have the ability, and also the right kind of parents, and the remaining 50 percent. go to boys who merely have the right kind of parents. I do not object to the second 25 per cent., because I do not in the least want a boy to be excluded merely because his father is a stockbroker or company director any more than because his father is a baker. But I do object to the remaining 50 per cent., that is to say, to the admission of boys who, though

  591
  they may barely scrape through the examination, are admitted simply because their parents can afford it, and would not be admitted if their parents could not afford it. The Royal Navy deserves a better yardstick than this for the recruitment of its officers. It deserves that not merely 50 per cent. of its places, but all of its places, should be available to the best available candidates.
  What are the objections that are advanced? One excuse is that in point of fact there exists a similar shortcoming in the public schools and that there too, there exists a closed class shop with just a minority of places thrown to grant-aided scholars. I fail to see why the shortcomings of civilian education should be used as an excuse for perpetuating the same thing in the Navy. Why should the Admiralty not take the initiative and set an example, instead of waiting for the right hon. Lady the Minister of Education to take the lead and follow docilely in her wake?
  The second excuse which is sometimes advanced is the question of cost. It is argued that by throwing open all places to all comers on merit, whether they can afford it or not, we should raise the cost of Dartmouth to the Treasury. It should; but by what amount? According to my calculations, if all fee-paying scholars were replaced by children whose parents could not afford a penny—which is unlikely—the total annual cost to the Treasury would be the vast sum of £36,000. I suggest that neither of these arguments really holds water. The plain fact of the matter is that this system of reserving places for a small social caste is not based on good sense, nor on good morals, nor on the interests of the Navy, but is merely a hangover from days dead and gone—at least from days dead, but unfortunately not yet gone.
  Mr. Guy: Would not the principle of free entry be the answer to the hon. Member's point?
  Mr. Levy: That is what I am proposing, subject to examination and interview as well. All this may seem to be a very small point, but it is one which a Labour Government, surely, cannot fail to clean up. The best way of cleaning it up is, probably, to abolish Dartmouth altogether. For to harbour the notion that we can
  592
  build an ideal officer corps by discerning" officer-like qualities and the power of command "in children of 13½ is to ascribe a degree of clairvoyance to the Examining Board of Admirals, which I doubt if any but the most senior of them would claim for themselves. If we do retain the college, I suggest that its cadets should at least not be exempted from a substantial spell of service on the lower deck. I say that in fairness to them themselves; because what it means at present is that in addition to being cut off at the age of 13 from the whole heterogeneous mass of their fellow-countrymen outside the narrow circle of the Service, they are to be deprived of the opportunity of intimate and knockabout contact with the ordinary rating on his native heath, from whom there is so much they—and I—and any man, can well learn.
  7.18 p.m.
  Sir Ronald Ross: I have heard very many speeches, but I never heard a more modest speech than that given by the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Benn Levy). He started off with a complaint, not that any harm had been done, but rather that he had been preferred to someone else of greater merit. I would be out of Order if I accused him of not being strictly accurate. I think he did have a lively time and made a good choice in the Navy, but the hon. Member gave a very quiet account of his naval life.
  The curious thing about this Debate is that while the First Lord devoted 90 per cent. of his speech to matters connected with the effective use of the Fleet as a fighting force, since then 90 percent. of the speeches have been devoted to very important questions of the welfare of the men who serve in the Navy, and little has been said about the Fleet as a Fleet. It is very difficult for us to be of the assistance we would wish to be, as Members of the Parliament, because we have not the ordinary material on which to base such remarks and criticisms as we would normally make.
  I suppose we shall eventually get the Navy Estimates in their customary form, together with the explanatory statement which was normally issued in the past. We have not, of course, the annual Fleet Return, which is almost essential to a knowledge of the material situation. One has only the vaguest idea of what

  593
  ships there are in the Navy at the present time. When we receive these things, I shall hope to address myself to various points in the Estimates on which we have no detailed explanations now. However, comparing the Estimates with the last complete year of peace, 1938, it is interesting, and probably very creditable, that naval armaments have gone down by a number of millions of pounds; but it is rather odd that the Admiralty Office has gone up to a figure three times what it cost in 1938, that it is rapidly overtaking naval armaments, and may in a short time surpass them. I shall follow that matter with very close attention:
  I do not propose to say anything much about the technical side, except that the Debate today has avoided one error which hon. Members—myself not least—are very apt to make; that is, to take the didactic line of telling the Navy the best way it should carry on, the best kind of ships for it to have, and so on. There has been none of that today, and I am glad of it, because there has never been a time so technical, or a time when the value of the various craft used in the operations of naval warfare, whether carriers, battleships, or any other craft, was so uncertain as it is at the present time. It is a matter for the Naval Staff, and the Naval Staff above all others, to decide what it requires and what is the best Naval policy Many hon. Members have spoken today of the importance of having a strong Navy I am sure that a strong Navy is as vital now as ever it was to the welfare of this country. One must remember that it is not something that can be improvised, and that there must always be a lag of years between the designing of a ship and the ship taking its place in the Fleet. Another thing which it is vital to remember is that one cannot start a very big shipbuilding programme for the Navy without other countries assuming that one has some aggressive intentions. Consequently, it is particularly important that the strength of the Navy should not fall too low.
  There are two suggestions I wish to make. I should think the first is self-evident to everybody. However much the Royal Air Force may dislike it, in due course Coastal Command, the aircraft that fly habitually over the sea, must come under naval control and form part of the Fleet. They are part of the Fleet, but
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  they are administered by a different Ministry. I do not think they will be very keen to leave the Royal Air Force; in fact, I know definitely they will not be. They are a very fine force. As things are developing at present—and it may well be that the influence of the air, great as it is now, will become even greater in the future—it is absurd that aircraft habitually used over the sea should not come under the Admiralty simply because they touch down on lane, rather than on a carrier.
  My second suggestion concerns the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. I do not think anything stands out more markedly than the extraordinary achievement, not only of the "Hostilities Only "ratings, but the R.N.V.R. officers who learned their trade and who, as many sailors of the regular Navy have told me, were as good as any regular naval officers. It is very important that the R.N.V.R. should be kept up in peace time. For that purpose, it has to be attractive. What is the thing that will make it most attractive to any seaside port? I suggest it should be peculiarly associated with the motor torpedo boat, because it was in the motor gunboats and the motor torpedo boats that the R.N.V.R. officers got the brightest laurels in the whole service— and that is saying a good deal. I suggest to the First Lord that if the R.N.V.R. were associated with the motor torpedo boats and the motor gunboats, that would be a very great consideration in getting men to join.
  I have often spoken on the Navy Estimates. As an old stager, I am a little puzzled when I look at Vote 4, which used to cover aircraft, and find that it has been slyly changed to "Civilians employed on Fleet services. "In all the times that I have spoken on these Estimates, I never thought I should find myself in the position of a dockyard Member as I now do. The Anti-Submarine School, to which the First Lord referred, is very properly situated at Londonderry.
  Mr. Medland: Was the hon. Member casting any aspersion on any hon. Members when he used the term "dockyard Member? "Was he using the term in an offensive manner?
  Sir R. Ross: On the contrary, I was claiming that I had joined what I have always thought was a remarkably fine

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  body of men, who should have special privileges in discussing the Navy Estimates, and whose sound position I have envied for many years. As I was saying when this misunderstanding arose, Londonderry is an ideal place, not merely because it is my constituency, but because, in training to fight the submarine there, they are doing so in the very waters where they fought it during the worst period of the German U-boat warfare— the period when the U-boats could recharge their batteries without surfacing. Work against submarines in more clement waters certainly would not be a wise procedure. Train the way you have to fight. It was a wise decision to establish a school there, particularly as Londonderry had been the main base for small craft taking convoys across the Atlantic. A large amount of work has been put into it.
  As the First Lord said, the great task of the Navy is to keep open our sea routes. I am proud to think that Londonderry has had that privilege in wartime. I hope that Londonderry will not be neglected in peacetime. The First Lord said that the vital need in peace was a prosperous and efficient shipbuilding industry. There is a small yard there which has done good work all through the war. I know that there has been no complaint of the work, either of the men or the management. There is some difficulty over the firm who used to supervise that work, and because of it there has been a suggestion that this small repairing yard should be closed down. In these times, the need for repair work and shipbuilding is as great as ever. It would be a tragedy if enough work were not found to keep these repair facilities in operation and to see that these skilled men, and the unskilled, for that matter, who have worked so hard throughout the war keeping ships fit for the sea, are employed. If they are to have hard times once again or are to be turned off, it will be as sad a thing as one could wish to see.
  Mr. Alexander: I am anxious to understand the detail of the case now being put forward by the hon. Member. How many men have been turned off? A good many of those who were employed there are going back to Belfast to Harland and Wolff's. I take it there is nothing to prevent the two firms who worked the dry
  596
  dock there, from taking on similar work in peacetime. I would like to understand the full extent of the hon. Member's case.
  Sir R. Ross: I am very much obliged to the First Lord for his intervention. I would not like to tie myself down to a precise number. I do not think the number of men who have gone back to Harland and Wolff's in Belfast is very large. I think the bulk of them live in the area, and are employed by two local firms who have been associated with the work. I very much welcome what the First Lord has said about peacetime work there and I will do anything in my power to be of assistance.
  I am convinced that this country must preserve her naval position, which cannot be extemporised. It has always been our support. In this time of rapid reduction we must not get carried away into reducing, what has always been the shield of Britain, into something which would not fulfil that purpose.
  7.34 p.m.
  Professor Gruffydd: I can put forward one claim to intervene in a naval Debate in that I spent four rather undistinguished years as a naval officer during the last war, in comradeship with the hon. and gallant Member for Holderness (Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite). Most of my time was taken up in seeing that my delightful but bellicose Friend did not eat too much fire.
  First I want to pay a tribute from a civilian officer in the Navy to the British sailor, whether he is officer or rating. When first I came into contact with him he seemed to be a different genus, a different kind of Englishman altogether from anything I had met before. I am certain that the traditions of the Navy have been different, even from those of the very best people in the British Army, and I have no reason to think that the men of the Navy in 1946 have any fewer qualities or fewer distinctions than they had in1918. Then, they were unchallenged in the respect and affection of the country, both in its literature and in its ordinary thought, for their devotion to duty, for their modesty and tolerance, and for their respect for personality. I would particularly like to emphasise the country's affection for them because of their great freedom from mean and petty ambitions.

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  I have no reason to think that the sailors of today are any different from what they were in those years, or from what they have been during the last 30 years. Indeed, I can only deplore the physical necessity which cuts off those officers and men from the rest of the community during a large part of their lives. It would be a real education to the rest of us to come into contact with them. That observation applies to all landlubbers— politicians, bishops, trade union leaders, civil servants, and in particular, university professors. I go further and say that if the same quality of loyal and uncalculating service had been found in all sections of the British community, we should not be in the plight in which we find ourselves today.
  I hope I have prepared the ground for making my first point, which follows. I am afraid the First Lord will not like it. It is not a reflection upon him. It is a reflection upon the Admiralty of all times. The Admiralty has always taken undue advantage of the character and morale of its sailors. Just because the Navy in the past, and especially the lower deck, put up with conditions which no civilian, and certainly no soldier, would tolerate; just because the Navy in its large sufferance has always treated grousing and grumbling as a kind of sea humour; just because Nobby Clark and Taffy Jones, after an orgy of grumbling, carried on with their work, joking and whistling—I am sorry, no whistling on duty, I know —and because of their cheerful submissiveness, conditions in ships and in some of the shore establishments are still almost as primitive and inhuman as they were in the days of Nelson.
  I refer in particular to the terrible over-crowding on the lower deck, in the sleeping quarters, and to the absurd system of compelling fully grown men to sleep in hammocks when the hammocks are so crowded together that they overlap one another.
  Captain Marsden: Does the hon Member realise that I slept for seven years in a hammock much better than I ever sleep now?
  Professor Gruffydd: The result on some people of sleeping in hammocks is pleasant, and upon others it is unpleasant. Some of the barracks, I believe, and
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  especially in Malta, are absolutely mediaeval. The result of this state of affairs, especially in the ships, is something that we do not mention very often, an alarming rise in the rate of tuberculosis among sailors, and that is among the very people who, according to medical opinion, should be the most free from infectious disease.
  The traditions of collective complaint in the Navy make it almost impossible for men's grievances to be properly ventilated, the reason being that the line which separates collective complaint from mutiny is far too narrow. At the same time, the fault does not lie with the officers. For the most part the officers in the ships are as conscious of the shortcomings under which the men suffer as are the men themselves. The fault lies with the Admiralty, with the civilians and politicians of the past, who have certainly not done enough to make life more tolerable for the men on whom we must depend for our very lives in time of peril.
  There have been vast and beneficent developments in the Army and Air Force in the provision of amenities, the opportunities for education and in a more humane approach to the men. Yet, although it is obvious that the men who are cooped up in a ship for months on end require even greater consideration than those in the Army and Air Force, who are always in the open air, the Admiralty is content to remain sleeping in the bosom of Nelson. Is it to be wondered that such a large proportion of the men in the Fleet should not choose to remain when the time comes for their release? I hope we shall hear from the First Lord that he will initiate a searching inquiry into the conditions of service at sea, with a view to a speedy remedy, and that he will not appoint the late Lord Nelson as the president of it.
  My second and last point is concerned with the new pay code. A comparison of this code with existing rates shows that the senior ratings will get less than they did in wartime. When it is realised that their allowances are now to be subject to Income Tax, it will be seen that their position is made still more difficult. I know that the White Paper covers all the Services. I am only concerned with the Navy, but there is a general point which is applicable to all the Services. The White Paper assumes an average civilian wage of 89s. per week, and the pay code

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  has been related to this. According to the Monthly Statistics, the average wage of men between 21 and 65 is about £6 per week, so that there is here a serious discrepancy. I do not know whether the Treasury would contemplate the reconsideration of these scales, but I am quite certain that the First Lord would be only too glad to do so. As they are, these calculations are misleading.
  Mr. Alexander:In referring to statistics, has the hon. Member in mind the monthly statistics as to earnings, that is, earnings including special emoluments and overtime, or is he referring to ordinary rates?
  Professor Gruffydd: To ordinary wages.
  Mr. Alexander: I think the hon. Member will find that the figure of £6 per week relates to earnings.
  Professor Gruffydd: I wish to reinforce what has already been said by more than one Member about pensions. The position in that respect should be clarified. It is not at all clear.
  745 P.m.
  Mr. Medland: In the first place, I wish to say, as a West countryman who has lived all his working life in a naval port, who has brought up his family on the proceeds the authorities have deigned to dole out to him from time to time, who has come to the end of his time and receives, as a result of his labours for the Admiralty for nearly 40 years, a pension of 25s. a week, how much I enjoyed the speech of the First Lord today. No one who has been associated with the Navy could listen to the right hon. Gentleman without emotion and pride as they heard the recital of the deeds of our lads during the whole period of the war. I would also like to say how much I enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. J. P. L. Thomas). Of the two I thought that his was the better Labour speech, because he dealt with things that appealed to me more than some of the things said by the First Lord. The First Lord has had many years as head of the Admiralty, under all sort of conditions. He held office first under a Labour Government which had a very pre-
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  carious existence, and then under a Coalition Government, when he had a couple of good Tories put in with him as Financial Secretary and Civil Lord to see that he did not get off the rails. Now he is First Lord in a Labour Government with a huge majority behind him which will give him the opportunity and the facilities for carrying out all the reforms for which we have been working so long that instead of the naval ports sending nine Tories to the House of Commons, they now send eight Labour men and one Tory.
  Mrs. Middleton: What about the woman?
  Mr. Medland: I included the hon. Lady in the eight— equality of status. With all that background I was looking in the right hon. Gentleman's speech for some of the things that we might anticipate from the new set-up in the Government. I thought I saw the first evidence of this in the pay code. Let me say at once that among the hundreds of letters I get, I have had complaints about the pay code from only one class in the Navy, that is the petty officers and the chief petty officers. Generally speaking, I think the pay code has been well received by the men in the Navy. I hope that the First Lord will look at the anomalies that are created among the chief petty officers and the petty officer class. Also, why he wants to define a plumber otherwise than as a skilled mechanic in the Navy, I do not know. Perhaps he will look into that as well.
  In the Estimates submitted to us, in Vote 8, the amounts indicate the division of the money as between private contractors and the Royal Dockyards. The Royal Dockyards are a national institution. This Party believes in nationalisation, and I am asking the First Lord to practise it in the future. But the allocation of the money would appear to require a little consideration. The money set down for personnel on shipbuilding repairs and maintenance—which is the dockyards—under Vote 8, is£23,595,000. The money for contract work is £32,250,000 approximately, and for material £28,626,000. That makes a total of £60,000,000, because all the material comes from private contractors. So that you have a distinction between £23,000,000 as against £60,000,000.

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  That may be only a passing figure, but I ask the First Lord if he is now prepared, at this stage, to give a clear indication of what Admiralty policy is with reference to the Royal Dockyards. Is he able to say that they are going to be maintained to their maximum capacity, because we could never get that assurance from hon. Members opposite in all the 30 years in which I have been trying to get it from them? Are the Royal Dockyards to be maintained so that their full equipment can be used to its maximum capacity? I know that rumour is a lying jade, but we have rumours to the effect that the building slips in Devonport and Portsmouth dockyards are to remain idle for the next three years, when hundreds of thousands of pounds were spent immediately before the war in equipping them and in making them some of the finest building slips in the world. Is new construction to be brought to the Royal Dockyards within the next period? If not, what is the reason? I know the Admiralty reply we used to get. It was said that the dockyards could not compete on an economic basis with outside firms. I have heard so many First Lords say that for years.
  Mr. Alexander: I do not believe it.
  Mr. Medland: The right hon. Gentleman says he does not believe it. Thank heaven for that. It is the first time I have heard a First Lord say so. I think the attention of the First Lord has been called to a report which was issued in 1940. In that year, the then Minister of Labour, now the Foreign Secretary, had occasion to doubt whether the best use was being made of the manpower existing in the dockyards, and the right hon. Gentleman appointed a Commission comprising the chairman of Lloyds surveyors, and an Admiral friend of mine, with whom I have been associated all my life, and he asked me to serve as well. We made a survey of all Admiralty establishments during the time that the blitzes were on, and it was not very comfortable. We produced a report on the best use of the manpower in the dockyards and made certain specific recommendations. I want to ask the Civil Lord, if he is to reply, whether any use is to be made of those recommendations; whether they are being accepted or whether they are even being looked at. I would also like to ask him whether the workman's side of the Admiralty joint industrial councils has been consulted as to the future of the Royal Dockyards and
  602
  these establishments. Further, I would ask him whether he has looked into the machinery of these joint industrial councils. Let me advise him that the Whitley machinery, as it at present exists, has no touch with the men in the yards and is confined to the executive councils of the national unions, instead of getting into direct touch with the men actually employed. I beg of him to look at this matter so that he can get the pulse and feeling of the men actually working in these establishments. If he did so, I am sure that he would bring into being some of the cooperation that —
  Mr. Moyle: Is it not a fact that the appointments to these joint industrial councils are entirely determined by the unions concerned?
  Mr. Medland: I think the Admiralty are entitled to say, "We are going to have direct representatives from the dockyards concerned," and it has been put to them on more than one occasion. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to look at that question.
  One other question I want to raise is that of apprentices. It is a very strange and singular thing that between the two wars, we went, time and again, to the Admiralty to beg and pray of them not to decrease the number of apprentices in the Royal Dockyards The persistence with which they cut down this vital factor in the yards tended to show that a time would come when they would very badly need them. I hope the First Lord will say that the apprenticeship system is to be retained and more facilities offered to the sons of the people who live in these naval establishments and towns, to take up work inside those establishments. The dockyards were left without the men who had been trained in those establishments—men who afterwards had to go all over the world to form the nucleus to serve the Fleet in various parts of the world, as inspectors supervisors and so on—and who were sent to every shipbuilding yard in this country acting as Admiralty representatives, only to become scarce and found wanting. I beg of the right hon. Gentleman not to lose sight of this question.
  The other thing I want to say about naval towns is this. I listened with very great interest to a point made by the hon. Member for Hereford who asked that the Admiralty would not only regard it as

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  their duty to make better conditions for men serving in ships and in shore establishments, but would also regard it as a duty upon them to provide married quarters. We know that married quarters in naval towns means houses mixed up with everybody else In my city, probably more than any other dockyard town, at the time of the blitz, we received a lot of attention from the Germans The Admiralty decided that they would require some acres of land for the development of the dockyard establishment. Is that development to go on? In that development, there are 14,000 people to be rehoused. Is the full cost of that development and that rehousing to fall upon the local authorities? I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that, if he takes into account the suggestion of the hon. Member for Hereford, he will now be able to help me, as a former lord mayor of my city and present member of the city council, in rehousing this population, and will be able to make a considerable contribution towards this scheme by helping us with the terrific bill which we have to meet.
  I suggest now that the best thing to do is to set up a liaison committee between his organisation and the local authority to state how we are going to rehouse these people. Most of these people's houses have been damaged and torn asunder by German bombs. At present the people are spread all over the place. Every one of those men was either a sailor or a dockyard employee. They saved their money. They bought their houses on mortgage. Most of them had paid for them. Now the houses are wiped out. Because the Admiralty are going to take this land for redevelopment, instead of a cost of works payment, they are now to get a mere value payment and lose hundreds of pounds of their life savings. It should always be remembered that they have had to pay rent during the whole of the six years since we were bombed. They have lost that amount. I suggest to the First Lord, and to the Board of Admiralty, they ought to be able to go to the Treasury for help to rehouse their own people.
  I am pleased indeed to hear the First Lord say that he believes in the persons who live in naval establishments and has great faith in them. I want him to give us more real practical acknowledgment
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  of the services which have been rendered by these men and women in the garrison towns during the war period, and help us to solve the problems which have arisen entirely as a result of the war. If he does that, then we shall say to him "Well done, First Lord of the Admiralty. You have got over the inhibitions thrust upon you by your Tory friends, and now, because you have a great Labour majority behind you, we are beginning to see the results we have hoped for for so many years."
  Mr. Brendan Bracken: The hon. Gentleman the Member for the Drake Division of Plymouth (Mr. Medland) is a formidable representative of dockyard Members who are always such a comfort to the First Lord. Life will certainly not be dull for the First Lord if the hon. Gentleman continues to take such a deep and consistent interest in the Admiralty; but I think he is less than kind to the present First Lord if he thinks that he would allow such conditions to develop in Plymouth to the great detriment of former members of the Royal Navy. I think he can be quite sure that the First Lord will give his suggestion careful attention.
  8.3 p.m.
  Today we have had a Debate which has been singularly peaceful. Members from all sides of the Committee have made interesting and, indeed, most constructive speeches—a thing that does not often happen here. The Committee listened with particular pleasure to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford (Mr. J. P L. Thomas). It was an admirable speech worthy of one who has served with such distinction as Financial Secretary to the Admiralty If I may say so, his speech is another example of the way by which the Admiralty rightly captivates the politicians who have had the honour of serving in that great Department. On both public and personal grounds, therefore, the valuable suggestions made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford will, I think, be welcomed by the Board of Admiralty. We listened to a series of other very interesting speeches. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Horncastle (Commander Maitland) made some points about the new pay code which are disquieting and seem to me to need a full answer. My hon. and

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  gallant Friend the Member for Chelsea (Commander Noble) reinforced all that was said by the hon. and gallant Member for Horncastle and brought out some new points which I feel certain the Admiralty will seriously consider. I do not profess to know all about the pay code but I am certain that these former naval officers have made points today which will not be neglected by the Civil Lord tonight, or, if a little more time is required, on some future occasion when an Admiralty spokesman comes to the House.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry (Sir R. Ross) paid a high tribute to the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. He used language which we all envy. We, of course, all agree that the services of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve in this war were almost beyond price. It was a pleasure to the First Lord and to people who sit on this side of the House to listen to what the hon. and gallant Gentleman said about the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. He also paid a high tribute to Londonderry itself, which is always a wise thing for a Member to do; but in this case the tribute was well deserved. The First Lord knows very well that if we had not had the full co-operation of the people of Ulster in the late war we should have paid a very heavy toll of sacrifice. Therefore, it is good to hear an Ulster Member making a speech in this Debate and putting in a claim to the Admiralty for consideration for his native city or, at any rate, the city which has the honour of having him as its representative.
  The other day the Prime Minister described the Defence White Paper as something of a stop gap affair. These Estimates may also be described as a stop gap affair. Therefore, it is not altogether inappropriate that a stop gap First Lord, one who served that office for the shortest time in the history of the Admiralty, should now make a few amateurish comments on a few naval matters with which he was fleetingly connected. One does not require any particular knowledge of naval affairs to reach the conclusion that it would be unreasonable to ask the Government to lay before the House precise facts and figures of the proposed strength and cost of the Navy in peace time. But I hope that in a reasonable space of time the Minister of Defence—
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  I am now talking about the Prime Minister in his capacity of Minister of Defence—may be able to lay before us well coordinated plans for the future of the Navy and all the Services. I also hope that next year he will achieve a great reform by presenting combined Estimates for all the Services. By doing this he will advantage the nation and the Admiralty, and greatly increase the usefulness of our Debates on defence matters. The best argument in favour of such reform was made by the Prime Minister when he spoke here this week. If the Committee will allow me, I should like to quote his words:
  "Every operation of war today demands the closest co-operation of all three Services, and economy and efficiency demand that the three fighting Services should regard themselves as part of a single service with a common doctrine, rather than, as used to be the case some years ago, as rival claimants on the resources of the nation."— [Official Report, 4th March, 1946; Vol. 420, c. 39.]
  In making that statement the Prime Minister was not, of course, suggesting the fusion of the three Services. All that one need say of this idea of amalgamating all three Services is that no man living, not even my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), could bear the intellectual strain and administrative burdens of heading all three Services. I think it is fair to say that a combined Service Department would create limitless red tape and confusion and would, therefore, stifle all new ideas and full co-operation between the Services. There is a good deal of difference between fusing the Services and having a common Budget statement as to the expenditure of the Services, and stopping what often happens in this House, fierce competition between Departments for more than their share of the meagre sum which is often allotted to the defence Services.
  Mr. Alexander: I take it that the right hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that we should prepare an Estimate in which the detailed Estimates of each Service Department are presented by a Minister of Defence. If that were so, I do not think we should get the best economy in each Department concerned. If a bulk budget for a common programme submitted on the defence budget is desired, I think that might be done.
  Mr. Bracken: I do not mind whether it is a bulk budget or a detailed budget

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  although I imagine it would work better as a bulk budget. I maintain that it would be in the interest of this country if the Minister of Defence would make a budgetary statement for all the Services.
  Today the First Lord has been solemnly asked—how tired he must be of this question—Has the Navy learned the lesson of the atomic bomb? Perhaps the best way of answering that question is to ask another one, Have the nation and Parliament learned the more important lesson of the need for maintaining adequate Armed Forces in peacetime? I well remember the day when my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford returned to the Admiralty as First Lord. He spent many hours examining the resources of manpower and weapons we then possessed with which to wage war against one of the most formidable and certainly the fastest moving military Power the world had ever known. The more he analysed our meagre resources, the more anxious he became. I do not suppose that any one in this House, however critical he may be of the Conservative Party or of my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford, would say that our late Prime Minister was faint of heart or small of brain, or lacking in resourcefulness. But, having considered our woefully inadequate supplies of trained men and good weapons, he said to me, "I pray we will not be licked." We very nearly were. Never in our whole history have we faced such mortal dangers as we did in 1939. How often then did one listen to hon. Members of this House declaring that that sort of thing must never happen again. They said that we must never pull down our defences. I hope it will not happen again, but I am not over-optimistic, and any help we can render the First Lord, or any other Service Minister, in maintaining adequate defences for this country will be more than freely given from this side of the House.
  To go back to the Navy, let us make quite sure that we maintain the seapower by which we live and upon which most depends. The more vocal critics of the Navy who, include a surprisingly large number of retired air-marshals, are once again lifting up their voices against what they call the Admiralty's foolish passion, or foolish fondness, for large battleships. It is, of course, difficult to argue with
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  these critics. One can only disbelieve them, and one certainly cannot persuade them. All one need say by way of answer is that if we had not got unquestioned superiority in battleships we could not have exercised any command of the sea nor fed our people during the last war.
  Anyone with the slightest knowledge of the present leaders of the Royal Navy knows that they are thoroughly well aware that great changes must occur in the composition of fleets in the future. They have every reason to know that there has been an evolution, if not a revolution, in weapons, and so I feel quite certain that the Board of Admiralty need no preachings about the part that battleships and aircraft carriers will play in our defence arrangements. I am not going to burden the House with any more of my amateurish thoughts on naval policy; I am going to turn to the points in this Debate.
  Commander Pursey: Would the right hon. Gentleman argue that if other nations agreed to abolish battleships it would be necessary for us to maintain them at the price of £9 million plus, simply for the fun of this country alone having them?
  Mr. Bracken: When other nations have abolished them, and we are certain that they have done so, we might consider the hon. and gallant Gentleman's argument. Let me remind him that on one occasion we limited the size of our battleships in order to meet the promises made by the Germans that they would not build above a certain tonnage, and what happened?
  Mr. Paget: We had a. treaty allowing them to do it.
  Mr. Bracken: I am pointing out that by accepting the German promise on that occasion we suffered grievously in this war. No Board of Admiralty are likely to accept the proposition that if they abolish their battleships other countries will do likewise. Let us be certain that other countries fulfil their promises.
  Let us return to the less controversial question of buildings. The few visits I paid to some of our great naval bases stirs me to give all the support I can to the arguments put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford. He pleaded for a great improvement in all the buildings owned by the Admiralty and, above all, of the barracks. I must

  609
  say that I cannot imagine a more depressing experience than to visit the barracks at Devonport and Portsmouth. They might have been built as a suitable place of penance for Trappist monks, and Mr. Heath Robinson might. have been their architect. I doubt if anything can be done to improve them. The only thing to do is to pull them down. Their destruction would be a great advantage to the taxpayers, for they are an awful combination of discomfort and waste. Let me suggest to the First Lord that when he has an opportunity of rebuilding these barracks he should not leave their planning to overworked officials in the Admiralty. I have the greatest admiration for the Admiralty, but their aesthetic performances are not very visible, and they are much too inclined to give a job which should be done by an architect to an engineer. Therefore, I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should put all new barrack buildings, or any other buildings he has got for that matter, out for competition so that the best of our young architects may have a chance of designing really attractive and sensible buildings. He should follow the advice of his predecessor in this matter, because it is about the only good advice he is likely to get.
  I want to touch on another point in connection with buildings. As I have a great consideration for the First Lord, I would say that if there is any money available for buildings after the barracks have been rebuilt, that money could very well be expended on pulling down the Admiralty itself, because that architectural horror is one of the most uncomfortable and wasteful of buildings in the world. I am not suggesting that we should pull down Admiralty House, but I am suggesting getting rid of that hideous rabbit warren which has been a tremendous obstacle to the efficient work done by the sailors and civilians who work in the Admiralty.
  I would also like to say a word to the First Lord about what I might call the neglect of the Marines by the Board of Admiralty. I am not blaming him or his administration, but I make the assertion that for 20 or 30 years successive Boards of Admiralty have grossly neglected the Royal Marines. Their pay has been inadequate, and their system of pro-
  610
  motion is antiquated. The Marines deserve better of Britain. The First Lord today paid them a noble tribute, and with every word of that tribute I fully agree. Their achievements are beyond praise, and so I hope the Board of Admiralty, freed now from their tremendous war tasks, will take a far more lively interest in the Royal Marines whose tradition and achievements are no less great than those of The Royal Navy. As I said a moment ago, I am not attributing any blame to the present Board of Admiralty, but I am suggesting that they should take a special interest in this question of improving the conditions of service and promotion in the Royal Marines. It is due to that great Service, and the task should be undertaken as soon as possible. In fact, it should be one of the duties which the right hon. Gentleman imposes on one of his able assistants while he himself is visiting India.
  The strength of the Royal Navy does not lie in compositions of Fleets, or in the evolution of new weapons. Its real strength is the quality of its sailors. The United States Navy has a classic maxim: "A ship, like a Navy, is as good as the men in that ship." Our sailors are not merely good. They are the very best. No men were more resourceful, tireless, gallant and gay in six hard years of war; and I, who do not pretend to understand the details of the White Paper on the postwar code of pay and allowances, make an appeal to the First Lord that if he finds any injustices—and these are only discovered through Parliamentary Debates and Press criticism—to these serving sailors or pensioners, to put them right, because there is no reward high enough for these sailors who played such a splendid part in securing victory for us. Some of my hon. Friends tell me that this pay code is good only in parts, and I am bound to say that the pay of some naval officers, particularly those attached to the Admiralty, is woefully low. My hon. Friend the Member for Chelsea raised this point today in his excellent speech. I had some small opportunity of looking at this question when I was a fleeting tenant of Admiralty House, and I am shocked to know that many officers with no private means have to work in the Admiralty at the present moment and find accommodation for their wives and perhaps children in London, where even

  611
  the smallest furnished fiat at the present moment seems to fetch an astronomical rent. It is very wrong that officers should have to live on their pathetic savings in order to do their duty by the Admiralty in London. Adequate allowances should be paid to those officers serving in London, because it is quite clear that officers who come to London must incur such heavy expenses as were never contemplated by the people who drew up such inadequate allowances as exist in the Admiralty today.
  I would like to say a word about the Naval Air Arm. The First Lord has found better language than I have to praise them. I think it is common ground between us all that the Naval Air Arm was starved before the war, and it is now described by some gentlemen—again retired Air Marshals—as unnecessary because of the growth of the Royal Air Force. Was there ever a more assinine assertion? There is a silly rumour going the rounds that members of the Board of Admiralty are not really great encouragers of the Naval Air Arm. I am absolutely sure that that is wrong. They want to develop it with all their might, but they rightly insist that the Navy's airmen should be trained by the Navy, for they must live and fight in conditions totally different from any known to the Royal Air Force. Let them, of course, have plenty of post graduate courses with the Royal Air Force, and sometimes they may be able to teach the Royal Air Force a little about certain details of flying, but let us always remember that the sea is their element, and so their early training must come from sailors. The reason I make that point is that once again an attempt will be made to reduce the Admiralty's interest in their own Naval Air Arm. It will be suggested that the Royal Air Force could provide them with much better training, in foreign countries or in one of the Dominions, but it would be the most fatal error for the Admiralty to allow the Naval Air Arm to receive their early training from any people other than sailors.
  Feeling, as I do, that the amateur has babbled too much, I shall say no more save to add a few words of tribute to what was said by my right hon. Friend the First Lord about Admiral Lord Cunningham. The First Lord described him as
  612
  the greatest sailor since Nelson. That is very high tribute, but I feel quite certain it is well deserved. Certainly the terror of his name and deeds often kept Italian warships in their ports, and the way in which he acclimatised himself to his desk at the Admiralty is an example of his infinite variety. I was pleased to hear from the First Lord such high words of praise of Admiral Pound, Lord Cunningham's predecessor. If Admiral Cunningham has been the greatest sailor since Nelson, I think it is true to say that Admiral Pound was one of the greatest staff officers in all naval history. He was immensely able, grim, tenacious and supremely wise, and his improvisation of our meagre naval resources was a tremendous contribution to victory. He was one of our saviours in this war, and he killed himself by overwork. Nobody will ever know quite what we owe him. I had the advantage, and the sorrow, of travelling back with him from the United States after he had suffered a grave stroke, and I may say that his gallantry and courage in his misfortune were the same as his tremendous courage and superb optimism in the darkest days of the war, when even the prospect of invasion seemed to threaten us. It is, alas, no longer possible to give any earthly honours to Admiral Pound, but we can, at any rate, pay honour to his memory, and I must say that I was delighted to hear his achievements recalled to the attention of the House today by the First Lord.
  I must not stand betwen the Civil Lord and the Committee. Perhaps for the first time in his life he is a little nervous, but we on this side pleasurably await his speech. In conclusion, I would like to say a word by way of valediction to the First Lord. We wish him every success in his important mission to India.
  8.28 p.m.
  The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Walter Edwards):Today, I feel, is rather a great day in my life inasmuch as four years ago today I was serving as a stoker in the Royal Navy, and sailed in Russian waters assisting the convoys which were going backwards and forwards to Russia. I may say that it seemed rather doubtful at that time, that four years hence I should be standing at this Box, either. defending or praising the work of the Admiralty.

  613
  So far as the Debate is concerned, I think that if every other Estimates Debate proceeds like this one, the Government will have no cause for complaint. I think it will be agreed by all that the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) has been most helpful, and it is appreciated by us. I must also add that I—and I am certain my colleagues, too—greatly appreciate the speech of the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. J. P. L. Thomas). It proved that he certainly learned something during the time he was at the Admiralty. I only hope I shall be able to learn as much in such a short time.
  Many points have been raised, and one of the important points which I think it well to answer at once, was with regard to the question of accommodation ashore and aboard ship. There has been quite a lot of publicity in that connection in the form of letters to Members of Parliament and in the form of Press statements. I believe every hon. Member of the Committee understands that the conditions which apply at the moment—the overcrowding conditions which we have to admit do apply in some cases at the moment—are due entirely to war exigencies. During the war we had to have a Navy seven times as large as these establishments were built to accommodate. As a result of the limitations on the size of ships, as laid down by Treaty, we had to limit the number of personnel for peacetime work in those ships. With the commencement of war, in order that we could safely defend the nation, and for the protection of the men aboard the ships, it was necessary for different appliances to be placed in them, with the result that there was a subsequent loss of accommodation, not only to ratings but to officers as well. I was rather perturbed about the statement of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Portsmouth (Major Bruce) when he was describing the accommodation. I have served on a ship and I am certain that the comments were most exaggerated. If, unfortunately, as a result of war conditions—and we are not really out of the war yet—we find that we cannot make the men as comfortable as we would like them to be, I do ask hon. Members of the Committee at least not to exaggerate the point but to let us know the exact position.
  With regard to naval establishments and ships afloat in the future, I can say
  614
  that we have already gone into the question of a 10-year plan for improvements. From my own personal experience when I first went to Devonport 28 years ago, I can agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth that, if enough money could be provided and we could put up another place quickly, they would be blown up. They should have been blown up before I went there 28 years ago. I would like to assure the Committee on this point: The trouble about naval establishments is that Governments in the past have not provided naval staffs with the money to make them decent. I assure the Committee that it has not been for want of trying on the part of the naval staffs that these improvements have not taken place before. In 1939, schemes were put into operation for improving naval barracks. However, the war came along and those schemes, like many others, had to be left until the war was over. Much as we want greatly to improve the accommodation for naval personnel, particularly ashore, I would ask every hon. Member to appreciate that at the moment we have competition with regard to materials and labour in the building trades. There are plenty of people who are homeless who would complain very bitterly if we were to get priority with regard to housing labour. I assure the Committee that, if they will be patient about it, they can safely take it from us that everything possible will be done in that respect.
  In connection with the accommodation for men serving afloat, as I have said, one of the difficulties has been due to ships which had to be built under Treaty conditions. Another difficulty was that at the beginning of the war we had to use a tremendous number of ships which were built for the last war. Owing to very little building taking place, and very little money being allowed to the Navy, a large number of ships which were commissioned at the beginning of this war were those which had been built for fighting the last war, not this one. In fact, one of those used at the beginning of this war was one commissioned before the beginning of the last war. That being the case, because of modern improvements, modern technical alterations in ships to make them absolutely efficient—such as the most necessary anti-aircraft defences, a very important point—when we went aboard those ships it was no surprise to

  615
  find we were to be overcrowded. Quite frankly, none of us complained about that. We were glad to have those defences in order to be able to stand up to the attacks of the enemy. So far as I am concerned, even if I went back to the lower deck again, I would rather have good defences on the ship than have plenty of space and probably be sunk next day. I can assure the hon. Member who complained about it that that is the view of the men on the lower deck. I trust that now we shall hear a little bit less about those accommodation difficulties in the Navy.
  Before I pass from that point I would say, on the question of accommodation afloat, that, as many hon. Members may know, in a few weeks' time there will be coming out what I believe to be the biggest battleship in the world. We are making improvements aboard her with regard to accommodation and welfare. This is the first opportunity we have had to do so. We are going to try to make the catering arrangements of the ship entirely separate from the living part of the ship. That is something which has been looked upon with great approval in the past by people who took a great interest in welfare. Even with that benefit, I am certain that there will be something better for the man who has to serve afloat, and we can safely rest assured in regard to the design of ships in the future that whatever can be done, consistently with the safety and defence of the ships, will be done to improve the lot of the officers and men who serve aboard those ships.
  A number of questions have been asked with regard to the officers' pay code and the men's pay code. Perhaps, if the White Paper on officers' pay code had not come out yesterday, I might have been saved the duty of having to talk about it today. Whether or not it was timed in order that it should be out before the Service Debates, I cannot say. So far as the men are concerned, there has been very careful consideration by Members of the Committee, by the Press and by the public in connection with those conditions. According to some hon. Members who have spoken, one would imagine that there is widespread dismay in the Navy, particularly with regard to the rates for men. I do ask Members of the Committee to look at this pay code in its
  616
  proper perspective. After the last war, when the cost of living was even higher than it is today, according to the official figures, the pay of a first class stoker was 4s. a day. If he had a wife all he would get for her was 18s. a week, and in fact he had to make a compulsory allotment of 14s. a week in order to receive that 18s. for his wife. That gave her the sum of 32s. a week and left him with 14s. a week. That was when the cost of living figures were much higher than they are now. In 1925 or 1931—I cannot remember which—there was a reduction. In 1939 the rate was still far below 4s. a day for a first class stoker. This year the rate will be 4s. for a first class stoker and 35s. for his wife. His wife will be assured of the 35s. and he will certainly be far better off than he was in 1939 or 1920.
  It is better to compare these rates with what the man would receive in a job in industry. If a first-class stoker, for example, receives 4s. plus the increments, he will be brought up to an average of £4 10s. or £5 a week, with marriage allowances. I maintain that that is up to the average which will be paid outside in industry. The only point I would concede is that the petty officers and chief petty officers are not perhaps quite so well paid as they might have been, and that the adjustments have possibly operated to their disadvantage. But, as was announced yesterday, so far as those who are now in the Navy are concerned, they will not go below the rates they are now receiving, if they are receiving them on 30th June next. They will receive a war excess to keep their rates up to that figure. Those who are made petty officers or chief petty officers after 30th June will have a rate different from that which applies today, but we still maintain that the differences between first-class stokers, able seamen, leading seamen, seamen petty officers and chief petty officers are those which are warranted by the difference in rank. Actually, I think that even most chief petty officers would agree with the raising of the rates for the men who in war days were receiving 2s. to 4s., even if it meant a slight reduction for them.
  It has been said that the incentive to promotion will be interfered with. I really think I know the men on the lower deck; they are out for promotion all the time, particularly when they are continuous service men, and they do not neces-

  617
  sarily look to see whether promotion will mean an extra 2s. 6d. a day. They want to rise in the Service, and I do not think that this will interfere with the incentive to promotion. It will certainly not interfere in any way with the men's desire to become petty officers and chief petty officers. That is my personal view, and I am certain that when we settle down to the operation of the pay code and the men know what it means over a fairly lengthy period, we shall have no fear with regard to recruits.
  Commander Maitland: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that it is no longer advisable to hold out encouragement to the men in the Navy?
  Mr. Edwards: I am not saying that they are not to be encouraged. I feel that they are encouraged by these rates, and after all, a chief petty officer gets more pension than he would if he were an able seaman. Surely, if any hon. Member of this House was an able seaman, and could get 4s. a day extra by making himself fit to become a chief petty officer, he would do it?
  Commander Maitland: Would the hon. Gentleman make the comparison between leading seaman and petty officer, and the chief petty officer? Leading seamen and petty officers often get exactly the same pension as a chief petty officer, and, surely, that is not right.
  Mr. Edwards: There may be a point there, but the hon. and gallant Member will not complain if we bring the leading seamen's pensions up, will he?
  Commander Maitland: No.
  Mr. Edwards: The trouble in the past has been that leading seamen or able seamen got somewhere about 25s. We are now going to lift this up, but because we- are doing so, and are bringing them nearer to the chief petty officer, surely, there will be no complaint about that? Perhaps something more is wanted for the chief petty officer, but we are increasing the pay of the men who were getting least, and that is our policy in the pay code. As it will affect the largest number, that has been accepted as being the most satisfactory. A question was raised with regard to the good conduct medal.
  Commander Noble: I am not sure that I heard the hon. Gentleman correctly. Did he say that the only reason why a man on the lower deck wanted promotion was for the sake of promotion, and not for the financial gain?
  Mr. Edwards: No, I did not say anything of the sort. Almost every continuous Serviceman in the Navy is rather keen to get something on his arm. He wants to be a leading stoker, first of all. Apart from the money, it gives him a little authority, and sometimes a little bit of privilege. When he becomes a petty officer he has somebody like me to Wait on him, and when he becomes a chief petty officer he probably has two people to wait on him. He gets all that, besides the increased rates of pay, because of his promotion. And I can assure the Committee that even if petty officers and chief petty officers get no extra pay for it, in many cases, it is worth quite a lot.
  However, that does not deal with the question of pensions. I was about to tell my hon. and gallant Friend that he was under a misapprehension with regard to the good conduct medal and gratuity. That still remains and they can still get their £20. The hon. and gallant Member for Horncastle (Commander Maitland) also raised the question of non-substantive ranks. I can assure him that this question has been gone through very carefully with the Naval Staff. If he has any fears in his mind that civilians with no knowledge have come into this, he can rest assured that it has received very careful consideration. The reason that we have felt it desirable to make this change on introducing the new pay code is one which I am sure most Service Members will understand. The Navy is becoming far more technical now than it ever was before. Previously, for a substantive rating such as a torpedo-gunner, there was only one specialised job on the ship for him to do, but on account of the increase of technical knowledge required now, even by the lower ratings in the Navy. that substantive dividing line is not quite so necessary.
  We feel that under this new system, with the training we must introduce to meet the new technical ideas, nothing will be lost. We are going to train the men in as many of these matters as possible, in order that they may be moved from one

  619

  job to another without any great difficulty. It does not necessarily follow that they will have to do the work without getting paid for it, as the hon. and gallant Member suggested. So far as this type of man is concerned, I think we can claim that, although he is not getting his non-substantive rate, by the incremental system we have introduced he will find himself financially better off in the long run. This really has received the very fullest consideration, I can assure my hon. Friend, and I am afraid it will have to remain as it is.
  Two dockyard Members have, I believe, today given us the benefit of their experience. One was the hon. and gallant Member for North Portsmouth. I should not wish to sit down before I had dealt with the dockyards, because as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Hereford knows, if you leave the dockyards out of any naval discussion, heaven help you the next time you go down there, and we have to pay them visits occasionally. I feel, however, that the hon. and gallant Member for North Portsmouth went a little bit too far in his statements. He mentioned the fact that ratings have to sleep in hammocks. I would commend anybody who has to go to sea in a warship and any hon. Member who has not experienced it to try it for himself, and then to decide for himself whether he is going to sleep in a bunk or a hammock. The finest way of deciding anything like that is to experience it oneself. I can assure hon. Members that when you are rolling about in the Atlantic, or being tossed about—[Hon. Members: "Why do the officers not have them? "] I would not exchange a hammock for an officer's bunk. Why the hammock is supposed to be wrong, I cannot understand. I have slept in hammocks for almost eight year—
  Mr. Medland: You can smell the next man's feet.
  Mr. Edwards: In the Navy we had to wash our feet. We get these remarks thrown at us in a naval Debate. There are hundreds of sailors who have slept in hammocks who have not worried about it. Then we get this complaint about the men wanting more space for sleeping. There may be good ground occasionally for that complaint, but I can assure hon. Members of this, that when a ship is in for repair
  620
  and half the ship's company is away on leave, you feel far less comfortable with so much space than you are when there are more sleeping together. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I am speaking from experience—I know. I should not like to sleep on a whole mess deck of my own. In any case, so far as the vast majority of sailors are concerned on the lower deck, they know quite well that that is the only system that can prevail. If you are to have plenty of room for sleeping you have to have less room for something else. People talk about extra room for recreation and things like that. They would leave no room for armament.
  Mr. James Callaghan: The Civil Lord is entitled to case his case on the fact that there is no room for more space, but let him not try to convince us that we like being crowded, because we do not.
  Mr. Edwards:I am not saying so. I do not know whether the hon. Member is talking about the men, but I am talking about my experience—
  Commander Maitland: Is it not a fact that the tuberculosis rate in the Navy is higher than it is in any other form of life or work in the whole of the British Empire? Is that not largely due to over-crowding on the lower deck?
  Commander Pursey: Does the Civil Lord justify men having to sleep on lockers and tables because there is not enough sleeping accommodation, so that they lose all the advantage that he had of swinging in a hammock?
  Mr. Edwards: In reply to that interjection, all I can say is that none of us wants overcrowding. I am not trying to defend overcrowding. What I am saying is that it is not always necessary to have this tremendous amount of room. Some other things are required aboard ship I do not defend sleeping on tables. It nay interest some hon. Members to know that although there was room in one ship of which I know for slinging hammocks, three or four men never would sling their hammocks. They preferred to sleep on lockers. It is a matter of opinion. [Hon. Members: "What about bunks? "] I am not defending overcrowding. We are going to try to do all we possibly can in that respect. But I do feel it is neces-

  621
  sary for me to point out to the House that many of these allegations are exaggerated, and that they serve no useful purpose for the men or for the Navy.
  Captain Marsden: Is it not also the case that when hammocks are lashed up and stowed away, there is far more air and space on the mess deck than there would be if there were bunks and cabins?
  Mr. Edwards: That is perfectly true. That remark helps my case.
  Dr. Morgan: Are there any statistics available in the Navy showing a relation between the tuberculosis cases among those sleeping in the hammocks in crowded conditions and the number of cases in other more modern ships, where there is more room and ventilation?
  Mr. Edwards: We have stated that, so far as we possibly can, we are going to improve accommodation, but the point I want to make very strongly indeed is that that cannot be done at the expense of the defence of the ship. The men themselves would not like it. With regard to the point raised about tuberculosis in the Navy, I suppose this is to be expected. When one has quarters like those in the Navy and when one has to go into different climates—we were up in the Arctic on one occasion—and this travelling applies to peacetime service as well as wartime service; and when one is travelling all over the world, one is liable to catch a number of diseases one is not so likely to catch if stationed in one place. We have a lot of travelling especially for the continuous service men. I am informed that during the war the rate of tuberculosis was down, despite this overcrowding. However, I can assure my hon. Friends that the matter is being closely watched, and that whatever can be done to lower the rate of tuberculosis will, obviously, be done.
  Mr. Keenan: Has the rate of tuberculosis declined? During the war period there were 8,000 cases. Is that a better figure than before?
  Mr. Alexander: It is a better percentage by 3 per cent. than before the war.
  Mr. Edwards: We had close on 1,000,000 men going through the Service
  622
  during the war. Those 8,000 cases were out of nearly 1,000,000. Really, it is not a bad record, though nobody defends it at all. We do not like to see those cases, and we will try to do all we possibly can to eradicate the causes in the future.
  The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Chelsea (Commander Noble) raised the matter of landing craft. We have not disposed of all our landing craft. A fair number of them are still being used in the Far East. But the matter is still under consideration, and I am afraid that there is nothing that we can do about that. The hon. Member for Kirkdale (Mr. Keenan) dealt with conditions in the Navy, which I have already spoken about. He went so far as to say they are better in the American Navy As I have already explained, at the beginning of the war we had a large number of ships built in the last war. We had, in fact, very little time to build our ships, whereas the United States were able to build when we were unable to do so, both before and during the war. This gave them a start in regard to accommodation, which may have given the impression that they were providing better accommodation I can assure my hon. Friend that the Admiralty is alive to this question, and that they will do all they possibly can; they have not cut down accommodation to keep below the standards provided by others. The hon. Member referred to discipline being the same as in Nelson's time. I was not alive when Nelson was alive, but I can assure him that things are a little different during this war than during the last war, which was certainly my impression after being away for 16 years or so. There has been a marked improvement, and there has been a marked recognition as between officers and men which did not apply many years ago. I do not think that we have good grounds to complain to the Sea Lords about conditions.
  I should like now to return to the hon. Member for Hereford. He wishes to know the future of the Navy, and also referred to the Ship Building Committee. I can assure him that we consider that this industry needs as careful handling as any other industry. During the war we have been let down to the extent of possible defeat as a result of neglect. We hope that we shall make good progress, both from the union side and from the employers' side, to ensure that never at

  623
  any other time shall we be in danger of collapse as a result of possible failure of the industry. With regard to the future strength of the Navy, my hon. Friend said that it is fixed at 175,000. With the numbers which have to come in, that brings the figure to approximately 200,000. and we are very glad that he feels it should not go below that figure, although I believe the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) said not long ago that 160,000 was far too high. However, we have the assurance from the experts—the hon. Member for Hereford and the hon. Member for Bournemouth— who feel it must be 175,000 or higher. Therefore, we feel safe.
  Mr. J. P. L. Thomas: I think if the Civil Lord reads again the speech of the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) on that occasion, he will find that the right hon. Gentleman did make it clear that the Fleet Air Arm might want to add its numbers. Therefore, this difference does not really exist between us.
  Sir R. Ross: Has the Civil Lord taken into account that his Government have made the situation much more dangerous since then?
  Mr. Edwards: Perhaps there are some hon. Members who would say that, but. on the other hand, perhaps the right hon. Member for Woodford has made it even more dangerous. A proposal was made for more research regarding personnel.
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: Before the Civil Lord leaves shipbuilding, will he say whether the Committee on shipbuilding are to have terms of reference which will enable them to include in their examinations the possibility of building ships for the fishing industry, which can be reconverted and used by the Navy during another war, as has been the case in past wars?
  Mr. Edwards: That is not one of the terms of reference to the Committee.
  Mr. Stewart: Ought it not to be?
  Mr. Edwards: The Committee covers shipbuilders and shipowners, but it does not include representatives of fishing vessels. The purpose of the Committee is to plan the industry for the benefit of the nation and not to allow it to revert to the state in which it was between the
  624
  wars. There is nothing to prevent the fishing industry, if a particular type of ship is required, from submitting suggestions.
  Mr. Stewart: The Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries in England and the Scottish Fishery Department in Scotland are vitally concerned that there should be a strong fishing industry, which is linked with the Navy in time of war.
  Mr. Edwards: We are aware of that. We do not stop the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries or the Scottish Fishery Department from making representations. That is one of the great advantages of the Committee, that whatever matters affect the industry can be put before it, and receive the consideration of the Committee for submission to the Government.
  I promised the hon. Member for Drake (Mr. Medland) that I would say something about the Royal Dockyards scheme. I must admit that he was rather convincing in his argument. We feel that in the interests of the Navy and the country there should be a redevelopment scheme in Plymouth and in that, I believe, we have the support of the Plymouth authorities. It has been represented to me by the hon. Members for Plymouth that unless we do something quickly in Plymouth there will not be enough work in that district. They feel that it is essential, in the interests of their constituents, that the Navy should play a big part in that port. The idea of the reconstruction scheme is to make the docks as efficient as possible for the Navy, particularly in view of the devastation caused there during the war. Much of the property which may have to be taken over will be bombed property. This, of course, will be a long-term project. As to the other points raised, they are of such magnitude that I am afraid I cannot now go into them. They include such matters as rehousing under the town and country planning scheme and questions of compensation. We will certainly go into the points raised, and if anything can be done we will endeavour to do what we can to help. They concern matters, however, which are largely dependent on the Treasury and on Acts of Parliament.
  The hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Benn Levy) raised one contentious note with regard to Dartmouth College.

  625
  I was expecting quite a lot of criticism, and I believe there has been some comment among hon. Members of my own party in connection with it. What we have considered with regard to Dartmouth is that we have a scheme which at least served the Navy well up to the beginning of the war, but the First Lord of the Admiralty felt that it should be democratised to a certain extent with the result that in 1941 a scholarship system was introduced. That scholarship system, it will be admitted by every Member of the House, has made a great improvement from the point of view of the democratisation of the Dartmouth scheme, and it is expected that 45 out of every 100 will be going there as a result of scholarship.
  Mr. Benn Levy: That is less than 25 per cent.
  Mr. Edwards: That is true; but, at any rate, they come in through the scholarship scheme and it is a scheme whereby a lad can have his maintenance paid by the Admiralty if his parents are unable to find the money.
  Mr. Alexander: If necessary we put up the full amount.
  Mr. Edwards: Yes. In that connection there has been a distinct improvement, and we are just about to see the result of that experiment. I am certain that hon. Members on both sides of the House would not wish the Admiralty to abandon a scheme though it may have had a little bit of class bias about it, without knowing the full implications of their action. We are justified in the first place to wait and see what is the result of the scholarship system which was introduced in 1941, and we shall be seeing that very soon. In addition to that the new Education Act will be coming into operation very soon, and that will no doubt cause some alteration, particularly with regard to the age of entry into Dartmouth college. That being the case, we feel at the moment it would be unwise to rush into changes too quickly, and we would ask the House to let it rest for a time.
  I am sorry that I cannot go into all the points that have been raised tonight, but I think that I have dealt with the most important. I do want to say this, that to those questions which I have not been able to answer hon. Members will receive
  626
  a communication. Finally, I would say that I wish to thank the Committee for its indulgence towards me in my maiden speech from this Box. I really have enjoyed making it—[An Hon. Member: "A jolly good show."]—and perhaps I have persuaded some hon. Members to change their views in regard to officers and the ranks, hammocks versus bunks, and a wardroom with a dartboard below deck. If I have not satisfied everybody I have endeavoured to do so, and I can assure hon. Members that the Admiralty greatly appreciate the interest taken in the presentation of the Estimates today. We promise you we will do all we possibly can to see that the Navy is going to remain as efficient as is consistent with the opportunites provided.
  9.13 p.m.
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: In the moment that remains may I draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that, in spite of the knowledge which the First Lord has of the anxiety felt in Scotland about the future of Rosyth, not' a word has been said about that naval dockyard? That is a great surprise and disappointment to those of us who come from that part of the world. It may not be the prime naval dockyard of the country, but during the war I think it can be claimed that it rendered greater war service than any other establishment of its kind in the world. That dockyard is under penalty of death. At the moment, no one knows its future. After the last war it was abandoned, and had to be reconstructed for this war. Is it to be abandoned again? The Government ought to tell us, and I invite them to do so, in the few seconds that remain.
  Mr. Alexander: I have explained to the House that we have to consider the position of all dockyards, and not only Rosyth, in future, in relation to whatever forces are allowed to us by this House, and in relation to our commitments. I cannot be rushed into making a statement about one dockyard. The Government must deal with the whole position when the time comes.
  Question put, and agreed to
  Resolved:
  " That a sum not exceeding £150,000,000 be granted to His Majesty on account, for, or towards defraying the charge for Navy Services which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1947."

  NAVY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1945
  Resolved:
  " That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946, for expenditure beyond the sum already provided in the grants for Navy Services for the year."

  Schedule.

  Sums not exceeding

  Supply Grants.

  Appropriations in Aid.

  Vote.

  £

  £

  1. Wages, &c., of Officers and Men of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines and of certain other personnel serving with
  the Fleet

  10

  50,000,000

  Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again Tomorrow.

  MALAYAN RUBBER PRICES (DOLLAR EXCHANGE)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. R. J. Taylor.]
  9.17 p.m.
  Major Sir Basil Neven-Spence: Many Members will be aware that I have a personal interest in the rubber industry, but the subject I am raising tonight goes far beyond any personal interest I may have. A century of British rule has brought law and order to Malaya, and has paved the way for the development of its two great staple industries—rubber and tin. Malayan Governments derive the greater part of their revenue by direct and indirect taxation of these industries, and it is no exaggeration to say that the whole fabric of Government depends upon their prosperity. The rubber growing industry, in particular, has attracted millions of Asiatic immigrants, and has brought great wealth to the country, but the industry has had a very chequered career, owing to the unpredictable fluctuations in world markets.
  During the world slump, when prices fell below the cost of production, drastic
  628
  economies had to be effected, and hundreds of managers and thousands of labourers lost their jobs. Many had to be sent back to their native countries, and wages were cut to the bare subsistence level. Needless to say, the smallholder suffered as badly as anyone, I think the huge stake that the Asiatic smallholder has in this industry is sometimes forgotten. Of the 3,125,000 acres under rubber in Malaya, two-fifths are owned and worked by Asiatic smallholders. One-fifth consists of estates of over 100 acres, which are owned by individual planters, Asiatic and British, and the remaining two-fifths consist of plantations owned by the sterling and dollar companies. In tropical countries, where much of the production is in the hands of the native population, as is the case in Malaya, the price paid for their produce has a most profound effect on the standard of living of the people
  If the price is too low, a lot of evil consequences follow. Their standard of living is lowered, the purchasing power of the country is reduced, and the revenue of the Government dries up. It puts an end to the development of social services, restricts a valuable export market for our own industries, and deprives the Exchequer in this country of a very fruitful source of taxation. Last but not least, it deprives us of an invaluable source of dollar exchange.
  It would be as well for the Government to remember that before the war, in the normal working of multilateral trade, the Malay rubber industry brought to us more dollars than any single industry in this country. That brings me to my principal point, the discrepancy between the price being paid to producers at the present time in Ceylon and Malaya. It has never been suggested that the price paid to Ceylon producers, is. 6d. a pound, is in any way excessive. Presumably, it takes into account the increase in the cost of production there and also some element of compensation for excessive bark consumption which must take place when tapping is being pushed to the full limit of productive capacity. If this price had been excessive surely it would have been adjusted this month-when the present agreement lapsed. In fact, however, it has been extended to the end of September. The renewal and extension of this agreement, after the end of hostilities with Japan, make the sub-

  629
  sequent decision that the Malay producers were to receive only 8d. per lb. all the more puzzling.
  I call it a decision because it certainly was not an agreement so far as I have been able to ascertain. In reply to a question I put to him the Colonial Secretary said that it had been fixed by the Government on the advice of expert representatives on the spot. I would like to know who these experts were and what they represent. Neither the companies, the individual owners of the estates, nor the Asiatic smallholders were consulted from first to last. Do the Government realise that this discrimination in price means that the producer in Malaya is getting£75 a ton less for his rubber than the producer in Ceylon? When the Japanese evacuated Malaya they left behind 83,000 tons of rubber. If this is all bought by the Government it means that the Malay producers have been soaked to the tune of £6,250,000, or will have been by the end of March. The Government have tried to justify this price of 1od. per lb. on the grounds that it represented accumlated stocks or that it came from smallholdings. What a shameful defence to put up! It simply amounts to an admission that they have taken advantage of the wretchedness and misery of these people, who have suffered four years of starvation and oppression at the hands of the Japanese, to drive with them a harsh and unconscionable bargain.
  That brings me to my next point, dollars. The Government agreed to let the United States of America have two-thirds of all this rubber available for export. Their share will amount to 55,000 tons, at a discount, at the expense of the producer, of £75 a ton. That means that we are losing 20 million dollars which should have come to us in the normal course of fair trade at a just price, this at a time when we are going cap in hand to the Americans to get a huge dollar loan. There seems to me to be a wide difference between proletarian nonsense and ordinary commercial common-sense. Think what we could have done with that 20 million dollars. Do right hon. Gentlemen realise that it would have provided this country with all the dried egg it wanted for six months? I hope every housewife in Britain will ponder on this fact, but it is useless to cry out over spilt latex. The Government had better get rid of their inhibitions and get down to the
  630
  practical problem before them when the agreement expires at the end of March. It is estimated that Malaya will produce 175,000 tons of rubber during the rest of this year. If the price remains at 10d., the producers are going to be deprived of another £13 million. The U.S.A., under the two-thirds agreement, will be taking 117,000 tons and therefore there will be a loss to this country of 40 million dollars, enough money to provide the country with dried eggs for a whole year. What is the sense of depriving ourselves of dollars by selling rubber at a price very little above the prewar cost and buying cotton and tobacco from America at 140 and no per cent. above prewar prices?
  I cannot imagine my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) tolerating for one moment a Colonial Secretary, or President of the Board of Trade, or whoever is responsible for this, who transacted the business of this country with such complete incompetence. My right hon. Friend has far too keen an understanding of the immense importance to this country of the rubber growing industry as a dollar earning asset. The whole matter revolves around the present cost of production and labour. By far the greatest problem is labour which has suffered greatly by the Japanese occupation. On the Burma-Siam railway it is said that every sleeper cost a human life, and probably 75 per cent. of the labour employed there is now dead. Individual estates have lost as high as 50 per cent. and the survivors are debilitated by starvation and disease.
  One of the direst results of the Japanese occupation is the recrudescence of malaria owing to the Japanese neglect of well organised anti-malarial measures which we had established. It is going to take a long time to rebuild the health and strength of the population, and also to bring the labour force up to normal prewar strength. It is not generally realised that two-thirds of the labour strength were Tamils attracted to Malaya by the better standards of living, and better welfare conditions than they could get in their own country. The remainder were Chinese. The Indian Government are not going to allow emigration to take place again until the standard of health is restored. These facts show that the cost of production must rise on account. of the general shortage of labour and inefficiency of the labour. Wages have to

  631
  be increased, and I should be very much surprised if this item alone has not to be increased by 100 percent. I see no fair way of meeting it except by increasing the price of rubber.
  Another very important item is the question of rehabilitation. Wholesale destruction was not large, but most of the estates have suffered in varying degrees through felling of trees for food production or for fuel. Probably about five per cent. of the area has been destroyed. There has been extensive looting of furniture and machinery from bungalows and factories, but most serious of all is the cumulative effect of four years' neglect. Weeds and pests have invaded the plantations, roads have deteriorated, bridges have fallen, buildings' have become dilapidated, and it is estimated that it will cost £25,000,000 to repair this. Where is that money to come from? Again and again the Government have been asked what their policy is in this matter and so far they have said and done absolutely nothing about it, except to issue a rather nebulous statement about compensation for direct war damage.
  The simplest and fairest way to repair this damage due to neglect and to enable the industry to do the job itself is to make it possible by allowing an element in the price of rubber for this purpose. Assuming that the job takes three years —I do not think it can be done, in less than that—and assuming, to make a big assumption, that Malaya produces 300,000 tons on the average during the next three years, it would need an addition of 3d. to the price per pound to produce the 25 million pounds wanted. This rehabilitation is a matter of the utmost urgency both for Malaya and the United Kingdom. We have a breathing space, because it is an absolute certainty that the world will take every pound of natural rubber that can be got for the next few years. That means that there must be control of the price to prevent it rocketing, as it would rocket if the control were taken off overnight. No one who has the interests of the industry at heart wishes to see that happen. We realise that control must remain. It also means allocation of supplies to the consuming nations, so that everybody can get a fair share. In return to the industry, for surrendering a free market, is it too much to ask that the producers should receive
  632
  a fair price? Incidentally, the Government took very good care to protect their own interests. The Government bear the cost of handling rubber between the plantations and the docks, a transaction which in prewar days used to cost from one-half to one cent per lb. They began by raising the charge to 10 cents, an increase of between 1,000 and 2,000 per cent., although the cost of transport had only risen by 50 per cent. It was only after protests" that it was reduced to 3 cents, which is still over 300 percent. above the prewar cost. The price of controlled stores is from 200 percent. to 300 percent. above the prewar costs.
  In face of all these facts, how can the Government justify a price of 10d. per lb. to the producer, which is an increase of only 11 percent. over the prewar cost of production? Gathering up all that I have said, it is clear that the producer in Malaya ought to be getting about is. 8d. per lb., which I arrive at in the following way. The prewar cost of production in Malaya, on the average, was about 7d. per lb. I have explained why I think there must be an increase of at least 100 percent. in the cost of production, and this would bring the figure up to is. 2d. One must add to that 3d. in the lb., the margin on the prewar price, and add to that again the 3d. per lb. I have suggested in order to pay for the rehabilitation of this great industry. One then arrives at is. 8d. per lb., which is not, considering the problem before the industry, very far out when the Ceylon producer is getting is. 6d. per lb. That I believe is the minimum that will enable this great industry to get going again and repair the damage it has suffered.
  No doubt the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies will trot out the old bogy about synthetic rubber. I ask the Government not to worry too much about that. Synthetic rubber was first produced in 1870, but no one has yet produced synthetic rubber capable of doing the work of natural rubber in all its most important uses. No chemist has yet succeeded in producing a substance repeating the exact chain of molecules that nature produces in the rubber tree. Synthetic rubber has special uses for which it is better than natural rubber—they are very limited—but it is inferior to natural rubber for nearly all the important purposes for which natural rubber is used.

  633
  That applies particularly to the tyre industry, which absorbs two-thirds of the whole output of world rubber. The United States spent 700 million dollars in erecting a synthetic rubber plant, and we owe them an eternal gratitude for it all in the way in which they tackled this most important element in our war effort. We won the war on tyres, made of natural rubber eked out with reclaimed and synthetic rubber, and the higher the percentage of natural rubber in the tyres, the longer they lasted. I hope the Government will accept with great reserve estimates about the cost of production of synthetic rubber. The published figures take no account of the Washington expenses, sales charges, or depreciation of plant. The synthetic plants were rented at one dollar a year to the big chemical, rubber and oil concerns. At least two-thirds of them will have to be scrapped, because they were built in a hurry in places where they will be of no use. Perhaps one-third of them may be retained for strategical reasons.
  In the meantime, manufacturers all over the world are screaming for raw rubber, and they are not going to get all they want. They will have to balance it with synthetic rubber and make the best use they can of what they get, irrespective of quality and cost. For years we shall not be able to produce much natural rubber I am afraid the Government have allowed themselves to be bounced over this business. They will have to take a far firmer attitude. I call the Government's attention to the supremely important part which a healthy rubber-growing industry can play in securing the dollars which we so badly need at present. Let the Government get those dollars, and stop playing ducks and drakes with them.
  9.38 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Creech Jones): In the few minutes at my disposal I will try to give the hon. and gallant Member a factual account of the position, on the main question he has raised. I am grateful to him for bringing to our notice a problem which has aroused very special interest in the financial Press and elsewhere, although some of his feeling and indignation might have been more wisely directed to quarters other than the Government Front Bench. As I understand the position, the hon. and gallant Member is con-
  634
  cerned about the price of 1od. per pound which His Majesty's Government are paying to the producers of Malayan rubber, as being unduly low compared with the prices paid in Ceylon of is. 6d. He thinks also that the price at which the Government are reselling Malayan rubber to the United States is unnecessarily low. Consequently, he argues we are deprived of dollar exchange and we are also confirming a rather poor standard of employment in the producing industry.
  During the war, the United States were allocated by the Rubber Committee of the Combined Raw Materials Board substantial quantities of rubber from supplies purchased by the Government at varying prices. Deliveries made to the United States were supplied under reciprocal aid terms. Natural rubber supplies are still allocated by the International Committee in Washington in the light of the requests of the consuming countries. At the end of the Japanese war, when reciprocal aid ceased, the United States said that they would not be prepared to pay for the Ceylon rubber which they had previously received under reciprocal aid at the price which His Majesty's Government paid for it. We are, however, the sole purchasers of rubber from Malaya, Burma, and British North Borneo, and I gather that a price of 1od. a lb. to the producer was fixed experimentally, taking into account the advice of expert representatives on the spot. It was a price which was designed to secure the maximum quantity of rubber in relation to the limited supplies of consumer goods available in the territory. This price related to stocks taken over from the Japanese as well as to new production, though the former were vested in the Malayan Custodian of Enemy Property, and were acquired by the Rubber Purchasing Unit. This price is roughly what the producer received immediately prior to Pearl Harbour, though it is higher than what he received during several years before the war. The disorganised conditions in Malaya at the time made it difficult to estimate the cost of current production and had necessarily to be tentative. The native smallholders have, however, been offering their rubber at the current price.
  An economic adviser was recently appointed to the Government of Malaya,

  635
  and one of his urgent tasks is to report on the cost of production and the present price, and he has already advised us that it seems impracticable at present to "form even an approximate estimate of the current cost of production, because the European estates at the moment are producing little, and the cost of living is still somewhat erratic. The Ceylon price, in contrast to that paid in Malaya, it should be remembered, was fixed before the end of the Japanese war, when Ceylon was the main source of supply open to the United Nations, and when the price was designed to secure maximum production for war needs, after taking into account the costs in marginal areas and the competing demands for labour for other essential purposes in Ceylon. Until the end of this month, the Government has agreed to supply 50,000 tons of Malayan rubber to the United States Government, though the latter made it plain that they were only prepared to pay such a price as would enable them to resell in the United States at their ceiling price of 2¼ cents per lb. above the price they pay f.o.b.; that is, at their appropriate c.i.f. price.
  Mr. Walter Fletcher: F.o.b. where?
  Mr. Creech Jones: Malaya. It will be appreciated that what was involved here was the sale of almost the entire stocks taken over from the Japanese, and the price would in fact cover our own costs only. We could not forget the desirability of continuing later on these sales to the United States, in view of the importance of this market and the competition of synthetic rubber. Having fixed a buying price in Malaya in the light of local considerations, His Majesty's Government did not think they could properly sell this rubber to the United States for a price which would give them a profit.
  Mr. Walter Fletcher: They have accepted an enormous loss.
  Mr. Creech Jones: There are no commitments of any kind after 31st March. The French and Dutch have also agreed to sell their rubber to the United States at this figure, but in their case up to 30th June. I think the House will appreciate what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies said on 6th February, that the amount of dollar exchange which can be obtained from the
  636
  sale of rubber to America depends on the price which the American Government are willing to pay and the quantity they will buy at that price, which are matters not under the control of His Majesty's Government. The whole question is under the Government's consideration, but the terms upon which further sales can be made must have regard to the report from our economic adviser, when it is received. Parliamentary consideration is also being given to the future arrangements in regard to Ceylon, the agreement with whom expires on 30th September. I am told that for the remainder of this year it is anticipated that there will be an overall shortage of natural rubber, and the Malayan growers would like, obviously, to take advantage of this and secure the highest price possible. By the latter half of 1947 supplies of rubber will be much more ample, and by then the competition between synthetic and natural rubber cannot be overlooked.
  The House will, I am sure, agree that this is a matter in which the Government and the rubber producers themselves must take a long view. We think that natural rubber is superior to the synthetic article, and therefore should command a better price, but, for a wide range of articles, the two are directly competitive, with a price differential slightly in favour of the natural. It is no good hoping that customers will pay more for the natural rubber than the cost of synthetic plus the differential. They agree with us, we hope, or at any rate their Governments agree, that the standards of primary producers should not be depressed and that there should be, wherever possible, margins which can ensure fair remuneration, reasonable welfare conditions, and stability to those engaged in the work. This involves a two-sided obligation, an obligation on consumers not to drive down the price by the last farthing, in disregard of the interests of the producer, and an obligation on those responsible for the organisation of production to practice the maximum efficiency, to eschew high profits and exaggerated overhead expenses, and to ensure that the greatest possible proportion goes to the man who actually produces the rubber.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Fourteen Minutes to Ten o'Clock.

  BROADCASTING (RELAYED MUSIC, COPYRIGHT)
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Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

  FINANCIAL AGREEMENT WITH CANADA.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISON): My Lords, the discussions which have been proceeding in Ottawa during the past month between representatives of the Government of Canada and of the Government of the United Kingdom have now been concluded successfully. These discussions have been concerned with the request of the Government of the United Kingdom for a credit to enable the United Kingdom to purchase the foodstuffs and other supplies which she will require from Canada during the next few years and with the settlement of other financial issues between the two Governments arising from their joint effort in the war. The desire of both Governments has been to make constructive arrangements which would enable the United Kingdom to meet the serious problems which she has to face after the losses and destruction caused by the war.
  An agreement, the text of which is being circulated in the Official Report, has been reached between the two Governments. Under the agreement the Government of Canada will provide the Government of the United Kingdom with a credit of 1,250 million dollars. This credit will carry interest at 2 per cent. from January 1st, 1951, and will be repayable over fifty years beginning at the end of 1951. As in the case of the United Kingdom-United States Financial Agreement there is an article providing for the waiver of interest payments in defined circumstances. The agreement also contains a provision that the interest-free loan granted to the United Kingdom in 1942 will be continued on the same basis as heretofore until January, 1951. Before that date the two Governments will
  1216
  discuss how they are to treat the service and repayment of any balance of the loan then outstanding.
  The carrying out of another provision of the agreement will involve the cancellation of the indebtedness of the Government of the United Kingdom in respect of the Commonwealth Air Training Plan. The amount of this indebtedness is 425 million dollars. Finally, the two Governments have agreed to accord to each other both in regard to exchange controls and import restrictions treatment not less favourable than that provided for in any agreement which either of them has made with the Government of any other country.
  The immediate purpose of the agreement is to enable the United Kingdom to overcome her temporary financial difficulties in purchasing from Canada. The agreement will also contribute to the steady development of trade between the two countries, the removal of trade barriers and the free use of currencies for international trade. These policies are in the vital interest of both countries and both Governments believe that by this agreement they have taken an essential step in the expansion of world trade on which the prosperity of their countries depends.
  A supplementary agreement was also arranged for the settlement of all remaining claims which each Government has against the other arising out of the war effort of the two countries. Under this supplementary agreement the United Kingdom Government will make a payment to Canada of 150 million dollars and will cancel all its claims on the Canadian Government outstanding as at February 28, in return for which the Canadian Government will cancel all its outstanding claims on the United Kingdom not otherwise dealt with, including the cost of food and other supplies delivered by the Canadian Government to the United Kingdom between VJ Day and the end of February, 1946.
  In conclusion I should like to express our cordial appreciation of the sympathetic and understanding approach to our mutual problems which the Canadian Government have shown in the course of these negotiations and to state my conviction that the agreement arrived at will be of great value in the common interest of our two countries.
  LORD WOOLTON: My Lords, I am sure that noble Lords who sit on this side of the House will join me in offering our congratulations to His Majesty's Government on the statement which the Leader of the House has just made. I will say no more than that it seems to me to be an arrangement which reflects the characteristic generosity that Canada has shown to this country throughout the whole process of the war, and we on this side of the House join you in expressing our gratification at the arrangements that you have made.
  [The following is the text of the agreement to which Viscount Addison referred:

FINANCIAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF CANADA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM.
The Government of Canada and the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland agree as follows:
Article I. Credit.
The Government of Canada will extend to the Government of the United Kingdom a credit of 1,250,000,000 dollars which may be drawn upon at any time prior to December 31st, 1951.
Article 2. Purpose of the Credit.
The purpose of the credit is to facilitate purchases by the United Kingdom of goods and services in Canada and to assist in making it possible for the United Kingdom to meet transitional post-war deficits in its current balance of payments, to maintain adequate reserves of gold and dollars and to assume the obligations of multilateral trade.
Article 3. Amortization and interest.
(i) The amount of the credit drawn by December 31st, 1951, shall be repaid in 50 annual instalments beginning on December 31st, 1951, with interest at the rate of 2 per cent. per annum. Interest for the year 1951 shall be computed on the amount outstanding on December 31st, 1951, and for each year thereafter interest shall be computed on the amount outstanding on January 1st of each such year.
Forty-nine annual instalments of principal repayments and interest shall be equal, calculated at the rate of 3,182,300 for each 100,000,000 dollars of the credit
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drawn by December 31st, 1951, and the fiftieth annual instalment shall be at the rate of 3,184,073,665 dollars for each such 100,000,000 dollars. Each instalment shall consist of the full amount of the interest due and the remainder of the instalment shall be the principal to be repaid in that year. Payments required by this article are subject to the provisions of Article 4.
(ii) The Government: of the United Kingdom may accelerate repayment of the amount drawn under this credit.
Article 4. Waiver of interest payments.
In any year in which the Government of the United Kingdom requests the Government of Canada to waive the amount of the interest due in the instalment of that year the Government of Canada will grant the waiver if:

(a) the Government of the United Kingdom finds that a waiver is necessary in view of the present and prospective conditions of international exchange and the level of its gold and foreign exchange reserves; and

(b) the International Monetary Fund certifies that the income of the United Kingdom from home-produced exports plus its net income from invisible current transactions in its balance of payments was on the average over the five preceding calendar years less than the average annual amount of United Kingdom imports during 1936–1938, fixed at 866 million pounds as such figure may be adjusted for changes in the price level of these imports. If waiver is requested for an interest payment prior to that due in 1955, the average income shall be computed for the calendar years for 1950 through the year preceding that in which the request is made; and

(c) interest payments due in that year on any credit made available to the Government of the United Kingdom to which a similar provision for waiver of interest applies are also waived.

Article 5. Exchange and Import Arrangements.
The Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of Canada agree that in respect of (a) the operation

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of exchange controls and arrangements and (b) quantitative import restrictions each will grant to the residents and products of the other, treatment not less favourable than that provided for in any instrument of agreement with the Government of any other country signed prior to the date of this Agreement.
Article 6. Outstanding Interest-Free Loan.
The two Governments agree that the interest-free provision of the loan made to the Government of the United Kingdom under the War Appropriation (United Kingdom Financing) Act, 1942, will continue until January 1st, 1951, and that the other arrangements with regard to the loan will continue as at present until that date. The two Governments agree to enter into discussions before January 1st, 1951, with regard to the question of interest on, and the terms of repayment of, any balance of the loan then outstanding.
Article 7. British Commonwealth Air Training Plan.
The Government of Canada agrees to cancel the amount owing by the Government of the United Kingdom to the Government of Canada with respect to the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan, which amount the two Governments agree is 425,000,000 dollars.
Article 8. Consultation on Agreement.
The two Governments agree that they will consult with each other as they may deem necessary on the working of any provision of this Agreement and that if in the opinion of either Government reconsideration of this Agreement is justified by the prevailing conditions of international exchange or by any major change in the international financial situation which materially alters the prospective benefits and obligations flowing from this Agreement they will forthwith consider what changes in its provisions they should agree to make. Any changes agreed upon by the two Governments will be subject to such legislative approval as may be necessary.
Article 9. Entry into Force.
This Agreement is made subject to such legislative approval as may be necessary and shall enter into force in whole or in part at such time or times
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as may be agreed between the two Governments.
In witness whereof the undersigned being duly authorized thereto by the respective Governments have signed this Agreement.
Signed in duplicate at Ottawa this Sixth day of March, 1946.
For the Government of Canada,
J. L. ILSLEY,
Minister of Finance.
For the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,
MALCOLM MACDONALD,
High Commissioner for the United Kingdom.

TEXT OF A LETTER FROM THE CANADIAN MINISTER OF FINANCE TO THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER.
Ministry of Finance,
Canada, Ottawa.
March 6th, 1946.
Dear CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER,
On the occasion of the signature of the Financial Agreement between the Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of Canada I should like to place on record our understanding regarding the entry into force and implementation of this Agreement in relation to the action by the United States Congress on the Financial Agreement between the Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of the United States signed at Washington on December 6th, 1945.
The Agreement between the United Kingdom and Canada has been drawn up in the expectation that the Anglo-American Agreement will be approved by Congress and will enter into force some time during the current year. If however Congress does not approve the Anglo-American Agreement our understanding is that in the terms of Article 8 of our Agreement a major change would have occurred in the international financial situation which would materially alter prospective benefits and obligations flowing from our Agreement and that consequently it would be necessary forthwith to consider what changes in the provisions of our Agreement the two Governments should agree to make

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subject to such legislative approval as may be necessary. In those circumstances it is; also our understanding that Articles 5, 6, and 7 of our Agreement will not be implemented until it is known whether the United States Congress has approved the Anglo-American Agreement. I agree however that these Articles are to be implemented immediately Congress approves that Agreement.
I should appreciate it if you would confirm that the above understanding is in accordance with those of your Government.
Yours very truly,
J. L. ILSLEY.
The Rt. Hon. HUGH DALTON, M.P., Chancellor of the Exchequer, London, England.

TEXT OF THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER'S REPLY TO MR. ILSLEY.
Treasury, London.
March 6th, 1946.
Dear Mr. ILSLEY,
I have received your letter of March 6th on the relation between the implementation of our Agreement and the action of Congress on the Anglo-American Agreement.
I confirm that my understanding of the position is the same as yours.
Our Agreement is of the greatest value to the common interests of our two countries and I take this opportunity of expressing to you my sincere appreciation of the action of your Government.
Yours sincerely,
HUGH DALTON.

AGREEMENT ON THE SETTLEMENT OF WAR CLAIMS BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND THE GOVERNMENT OF CANADA.
The Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of Canada, in order to arrive at a prompt and final settlement of all outstanding accounts between them arising out of the war, agree as follows:
Article 1.
The Government of the United Kingdom will pay to the Government of Canada the sum of $150,000,000 and thereupon each of the two Governments
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will, with the exceptions noted below, cancel all claims against the other which arose on or after September 3rd, 1939, and prior to March 1st, 1946, in respect of supplies, services, facilities and accommodation delivered or furnished during that period, whether such claims are known or unknown.
Article 2.
The two Governments agree that such payment and cancellation shall be in full settlement of all such claims, and neither Government will raise or pursue any such claims against the other.
Article 3.
The settlement covered by this Agreement includes without limitation thereto

(a) all claims of the Government of Canada in respect of the construction for the Admiralty of ships which were in the course of construction on September 1st, 1945, and which were to be completed by agreement between the two Governments

(b) all claims arising out of the opera-dons of the Inspection Board of the United Kingdom and Canada and in this case the period covered by the settlement shall extend to March 31st 1946, the Government of Canada taking over all the assets and liabilities of that Board as of that date.

(c) all claims of the Government of the United Kingdom arising out of the operation by the Department of Munitions and Supply of Canada of joint production projects and all claims relating to the period before March 1st, 1946, arising from past or future negotiation of contracts or the retroactive adjustment of prices paid by or charged to the Government of the United Kingdom in Canada

(d) all claims between the two Governments arising from the sharing of profits or losses before March 1st, 1946, under contracts or arrangements made before that date and where projects covered by profit or loss sharing agreements continue in operation beyond that date shares of profits or losses accruing on and after that date shall not be affected by this Agreement except in the case of the Inspection Board covered in paragraph (b) above

(e) all claims between the two Governments arising from the disposal

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in the United Kingdom of surplus war assets of the Government of Canada or from the disposal in Canada of surplus war assets of the Government of the United Kingdom provided that this Agreement shall not prejudice the right of either Government to remove any of its surplus war assets from the country of the other either for its own use or for transfer to other countries and

(f) all claims of the Government of Canada in respect of the costs incurred by it under contracts entered into before March 1st, 1946, for the manufacture of locomotives and rolling stock in Canada for the Government of India without prejudice to the right of the Government of the United Kingdom to recover the amount of such claims from the Government of India.

Article 4.

(I) The balance in the United Kingdom Suspense Account held by the Bank of Canada on February 28th, 1946, shall be paid to the Government of the United Kingdom.

(II) The balance in the United Kingdom Cash Receipts Account held by the Receiver General of Canada on February 28th, 1946, shall be paid to the Government of Canada without prejudice to the right of the Government of the United Kingdom to claim reimbursement from third countries in respect of payments made on their behalf out of the United Kingdom Cash Receipts Account:

Article 5.
The settlement covered by this Agreement shall not include the following

(a) the Loan to the Government of the United Kingdom under the War Appropriation (United Kingdom Financing) Act, 1942, which is covered by another Agreement

(b) the amount of $425,000,000 owing by the Government of the United Kingdom to the Government of Canada with respect to the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan which is covered by another Agreement

(c) claims of the two Governments arising out of the sharing of military relief expenditures which are to be dealt with in accordance with the procedures already established or to be established

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(d) claims arising out of established procedures under which periodical settlements are made in regard to payment of pensions and war service gratuities, reimbursement of expenditures for salaries, pay and allowances, travelling and living expenses of personnel on an individual basis, the transfer of personal funds of prisoners of war and other similar payments of a routine nature

(e) claims arising out of the settlement of accounts between postal administrations

(f) balances held by Departments of either Government on behalf of and to the order of Departments of the other Government.

Article 6.
Each Government agrees to repay to the other amounts paid since February 28th, 1946, in respect of claims cancelled under this Agreement.
Article 7.
The two Governments will consult together through their appropriate Departments and Representatives concerning the interpretation and implementation of this Agreement.
In witness whereof the undersigned being duly authorised thereto by their respective Governments have signed this Agreement.
Signed in duplicate at Ottawa this 6th day of March, 1946.
For the Government of Canada,
J. L. ILSLEY,
Minister of Finance.
For the Government of the United Kingdom,
MALCOLM MACDONALD,
High Commissioner for the United Kingdom.]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
4.6 p.m.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, I am afraid I must make one other small statement. There is, I think, a general desire among your Lordships that an early date should be fixed for a debate on the housing question. Lord Llewellin has a Motion on this subject for Thursday, 21st. Lord Altrincham who has a Motion on the Paper respect-

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ing the regional organizations in Africa and the Middle East for Wednesday next, the 13th, has kindly consented to withdraw that Motion, and I propose putting a Motion myself on the Paper for Tuesday next asking that Lord Llewellin may have the leave of the House to advance his Motion from Thursday the 21st to Wednesday the 13th, in order that the debate on this pressing matter of housing may be taken on a date which I hope will be convenient to your Lordships.

THE FOREIGN SITUATION.
4.8 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUELhad given Notice that he would call attention to the foreign situation, and move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I should like in the first instance to express my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Rankeillour, for having kindly postponed until next week the Motion which he had upon the Paper for to-day, thereby allowing priority to the Motion which stands in my name. This Motion is one of vast scope, and it is clearly necessary for me to impose rigid restrictions on the portion of it which I am to endeavour to approach. I have noticed in your Lordships' House that by some strange new rule of arithmetic the greater the length of speeches the less is their weight, and the less influence they exercise upon your Lordships' minds. In fact, the greater the demand upon your Lordships' attention, the less it receives. Fortunately, two of my noble friends will be speaking in the discussion to-day, namely, the noble Earl, Lord Perth, and the noble Lord, Lord Rennell, and they will be dealing with a variety of points touching particular regions of particular countries, as well as the question of the atomic bomb. I shall therefore eschew all of those and limit myself in the main to the international situation as it now stands in the light of the recent discussions at the United Nations Conference, and in the light of the course taken by Soviet Russia there and subsequently. I may have a few observations also to make on the subject of the food shortage in Germany, India and elsewhere.
Your Lordships will probably expect first a reference to be made to a great speech that was delivered two days ago, the echoes of which are reverberating round
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the world. Mr. Churchill returned to those lofty themes and that inspiring tone and temper which so greatly distinguished his utterances during the war, uplifting the hearts and sustairing the energies of his fellow-countrymen and of all freedom-loving peoples everywhere. Speaking in America, it was natural that he should specially dwell upon the relations between this country and that. I am certain that he will have universal assent and approval here in his plea for the fullest measure of co-operation between the two countries that is advantageous and practicable. For my own part, I have taken a share in many discussions on Anglo-American relations in your Lordships' House and previously in the other House and elsewhere, in season and out of season—and during the controversies on the British debt to America after the first great war many thought that such pleas were out of season—always advocating, to whatever extent I could, the closest co-operation that might be acceptable to the people of the United States. Mr. Churchill two days ago made proposals for what he termed a fraternal association, and they consisted mainly in a permanent arrangement for joint defence, for sharing all naval and air force bases throughout the world, the standardizing of military equipment in the two countries and an interchange of officers and cadets at the colleges.
It is a commonplace to say that questions of defence and questions of policy are inseparable, and closely integrated military forces must postulate an integration of the policy which those forces are intended to defend and to promote. So far as resistance to aggression is concerned, there can be no question as to unanimity of opinion on the two sides of the Atlantic. But when it comes to the day by day, year by year, course of policy in Europe, in the Middle East, in the Far East and elsewhere, we should not be surprised if public opinion in America hesitates to commit itself too definitely in advance to common action with this country, and we should not be surprised or regard it as unfriendly or as a rebuff if, at all events at the present time, opinion there were to take that course. Mr. Churchill made the proposal of course on his own responsibility and on his own behalf. The subject now has been launched for public discussion, and

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I would venture respectfully to suggest that we should wait now for American opinion to express itself and that it would be inadvisable for any of us in your Lordships' House or in this country generally to give the impression that we are pressing for any particular course to be taken in these matters by the American people. Let further initiative come from them.
Furthermore, we must be exceedingly careful lest there should be any appearance in the eyes of the world at large that the English-speaking nations are seeking to grasp any form of hegemony in world affairs. It is certain that any tendency in that direction would be resented, not only in Russia but in France, in other European countries, in South America and among smaller States generally. They are sensitive on that particular point, and especially at this moment when this over-mastering weapon of the atomic bomb happens to be in the hands of three States, all of whom would be members of such an English-speaking union.
No doubt the other nations of the world would welcome Anglo-American co-operation in supplying initiative on proper occasions, leadership even, but not if it became, even in appearance, the case that the British Commonwealth and the United States were so closely united, both in policy and in power, as in fact to dominate the proceedings of the United Nations and the action of the world. The League of Nations had the appearance at times of having been controlled too much by a close understanding between the British Commonwealth and France, who, it was alleged, in their own interests thought only of maintaining what happened to be the status quo in Europe. The United Nations Organization, consisting of fifty-one members, would not be satisfied if it seemed that two of those members were seeking to exercise preponderance, by a combination both of force and political influence. There would quickly be a reaction, and it often happens in public affairs that excess of strength may prove to be a weakness.
The outstanding event since we last discussed these affairs here in your Lordships' Chamber has been the meeting of the United Nations Organization. That organization is now a fact. Already, so soon after the ending of this great war, it
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is actually in being, established, visible in all men's eyes. It has taken its place, for better or for worse, for success or for failure, for a long period or for a short period—who can say?—in the great book of human history. The United Nations have ceased to be a collection of peoples and has become a collectivity. A philosopher has written that we must learn to look upon the universe, not as an aggregate but as a whole; and so we must learn to look upon the United Nations, not as an aggregate but as an entity, as a whole.
It might have been expected that at its first meeting the United Nations Organization would have been able to devote its energies to more or less formal business, to its own establishment, to its procedure. But, unhappily perhaps, it was called upon, even so young, to deal with some of the most delicate and difficult political questions that could possibly have been brought before it. Looking back, I think we must come to the very clear conclusion that, given that situation, the decisions of the Assembly and of the Security Council were just, judicious and sensible. After all, those bodies consist of responsible men, accustomed in their own countries to the handling of public affairs and well accustomed to coping with difficult situations. When it is thought to be perhaps illogical that a large number of secondary or small States should be called upon to sit in judgment upon the great ones, the same might be said of the jury system, which is more illogical than any other human institution, where, quite haphazardly, a number of individuals are chosen by lot to decide difficult cases of a judicial character, yet the jury system works exceedingly well, and we may in a sense regard the Assembly of the United Nations as a jury empanelled from mankind.
The controversies that arose at this meeting were due to the somewhat unhappy state of Anglo-Russian relations. We on these Benches cannot be accused of Russophobia. The attitude of British Liberalism and, I think, the attitude of the British Labour Party has been consistently one of good will towards Soviet Russia, particularly in recent years, and I presume the same is true of the great majority of the Conservative Party also, although there are some of its members who are antagonistic on grounds of principle to the Soviets. My noble friend the Earl of Perth and myself in

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recent controversies about the Eastern frontier of Poland, the Curzon Line and East Prussia, took a course favourable in the main to the Russian case. I confess I am at a loss to understand the present attitude of Soviet Russia. They complain, and complain bitterly, of our seeking close and friendly relations with neighbouring States in Europe. British Liberalism, to quote my own Party again, has consistently for 150 years, ever since the time of Charles James Fox, advocated a close friendship with France. We have all been ashamed of the centuries of history which were a succession of desolating wars between two neighbouring countries, and ever since a happier relationship was established at the beginning of the present century we have all been in favour of a cordial entente with France; and we rejoice at the growing closeness of our cultural and political relations. Similarly with regard to Belgium, Holland and Scandinavia. It is not a question of building up a Western bloc to establish a balance of power against Russia. We, for our part, condemned the whole principle of the balance of power and repudiated it long ago as a principle that should act as a guide in our international relations.
If Russia did not at this moment exist, if there were some vast sea in the land now occupied by her, our policy towards these western States would be precisely the same. Because Russia, happily, does exist and because, unhappily, she is full of nervous apprehension is no reason why we in this country should change a policy with regard to our western neighbours which is right in itself. No doubt many of these apprehensions in the minds of the Russians are quite sincere. She has suffered in modern times six invasions, the invasion of Napoleon and the burning of Moscow, the Crimean War, the war with Germany in 1914–17, the invasion by the Polish Armies following upon that, then by British troops being sent to Archangel and by the Western Allies supporting the White Russian Movement under Kolchak and Denekin, and, worst of all, this last invasion, occupying and desolating a large part of Western and Southern Russia. Those are bitter memories in the minds of the Russian people; we all recognize that and sympathize entirely with the Russian demand for future security.
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During the last year there was throughout the country, irrespective of Party attachments, a feeling of very genuine friendship and goodwill towards Soviet Russia; we fully recognized that she was entitled to make herself, so far as she could, secure against a repetition of invasions of her soil. But now, it must be confessed, that sentiment of general goodwill finds itself somewhat vitiated, and there has been a progressive feeling of what I can only call exasperation at the course which has been taken by Russian policy of recent months. If that were our own fault I should not hesitate to say so: and if I thought it was due to any action taken by His Majesty's Government we on these Benches would not for a moment hesitate to criticize such action. But viewing the matter as impartially as I can, I cannot attribute it to any particular action of His Majesty's Government. Russia suffers in these days, by her own acts, from one of the greatest disabilities that can possibly afflict a nation, namely, the maintenance of a censorship of news and opinions and a Government-directed Press. A country which lives under such a censorship and which is served by such a Press is like a man compelled to wear a bandage over his eyes. He does not know what is going on, he never knows what is coming to him, he is alarmed at a touch, for he does not know but that it may precede a blow, and, being himself blindfolded, he strikes out blindly at the first alert.
Then again Russia has adopted a policy of deliberate isolation. The Communist movement, having begun with the motto of Marx ana Engels "Workers of the world unite,' seems now to be adopting the principle "All peoples of the world, keep isolated." That is a fatal state of affairs for the promotion of good international relations, for them cannot be promoted merely by contacts at the top, through Governments and Parliaments and by means of conferences and treaties; they must be promoted by contacts at the bottom between the peoples. A policy of censorship and isolation is a terrible handicap to any country. Russia needs security, but is not security best obtained by surrounding yourself, if you can secure it, by a general atmosphere of good will; and is not security most impaired and threatened if you surround yourself by a general atmosphere of annoyance and antagonism?.

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The Communists have always regarded Soviet Russia as the last word in the humanitarian spirit of modern internationalism and of human solidarity, but now it appears that Russian foreign policy is to adopt the crudest methods of wholly discredited eighteenth and early nineteenth century diplomacy. If some other State does something objectionable, then you are not to ask for modifications, to discuss questions in a friendly spirit and put forward good grounds for a change; your procedure is for you yourself to do something much more objectionable, perhaps in two or three different places, and then to trade off the two against one another. If Russia has grievances with regard to the Straits of the Dardanelles, or, as she may have, a legitimate grievance with regard to the continuance of General Anders' Army of Poles in Italy, or if she has proposals to make with regard to her future relations with North Persia, with China or with Japan, surely the right course is to discuss all those matters, to say what her case is and to enlist the sympathy and support of other countries, not to seek to bring pressure all round the globe on every point at which it would appear that other countries are sensitive. It is a good maxim which statesmen would be wise to remember: "He who makes many afraid of him has, himself, many to fear."
When the Conference of Foreign Ministers took place in London a few months ago, and again recently at the meeting of the United Nations, these difficulties arose and became very prominent. Persia presented a case which, on the face of it, was quite a legitimate case for discussion, but it was immediately met by a riposte on the part of Russia, who presented what they claimed to be a similar case against Great Britain with regard to Greece and Indonesia. That was clearly an error of policy, and it led to the strange dénoument that when the case with regard to Greece was heard, and judgment which would have been adverse to Russia was about to be pronounced, the Russian representative used, in effect, the words, "I object," and prevented any award being pronounced. It was somewhat like the remark alleged to have been made by a trade union leader on some occasion: "Call this Arbitration? Why he's given it against us!"
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This veto in the hands of any of the five great Powers seemed to us here on this Bench objectionable in principle when it was adopted at the San Francisco Conference. At the same time, we all thought, and I believe that your Lordships also thought, that it was better to include the veto in the Charter of the United Nations rather than run the risk—it was almost a certainty, or at all events a probability—of Russian withdrawal from the whole scheme. That we thought then, and we still think, would have been the worse alternative. It would have meant that many issues that were really dangerous would have been withdrawn altogether from the purview of the United Nations, and the Organization would have led a truncated existence, excluded from the consideration of those matters which most needed its attention.
It might, perhaps, on the whole, be a good thing that there should be another alternative to either acceptance of award on the one hand or withdrawal, or threatened withdrawal, on the other. The veto, in its present form, does supply such an alternative, and if its exercise is the only means of preventing the mutilation of the United Nations Organization, then it is the better of two bad courses. After all, the discussions of the United Nations, and the opinions expressed by the representatives of all the various States included in the Security Council and in the Assembly, did show what the opinion of the world really was, and in the end a result was achieved in several of these matters. For example, the British and the French representatives did not, for a moment, think of employing the veto on an award being given with regard to Syria and the Lebanon, and when the award was vetoed from another quarter, they immediately declared that they were ready to fulfil what was the obvious desire of the United Nations as a whole. Seldom has a British Foreign Secretary had a more difficult task to perform than that which fell to the lot of Mr. Ernest Bevin. He is a man without early training in these concerns, and he went into a sphere of action that was new to him. He dealt with these questions, as I am sure the House and, indeed, the whole nation will agree, with courage, frankness and wisdom. He is not one of those of whom a present day poet wrote.

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"He's so altruistically moral
He'll never take his own side in a quarrel."
Surely it is better that there should be public discussion even if ending in avowed disagreement rather than secret diplomatic manoeuvring ending in platitudinous declarations which are wholly deceptive, and merely a preliminary to some later breach which may be fatal. As a mild and subordinate criticism one might, perhaps, suggest that Mr. Bevin would have been better advised not to have objected to the proposal that a Commission of Inquiry should be sent to Indonesia. He said, in effect: "That would be an injury to British prestige." His words were: "The whole honour of the British Government is involved in this matter." It is, surely, a normal and proper course for any organization called upon to adjudicate first to make inquiry into the facts of the case, and although in this particular matter it may be true to say that to send a Commission of Inquiry might have done more harm than good in Indonesia, it was not for us as the party impugned to say so. If it would do more harm than good, the Security Council would have recognized the fact and have said so. On grounds of general principle, any country which is indicted should never oppose investigation, and the more unjust is the accusation that is made against it, the more striking will be the vindication. If it should so happen that there was some element of truth in the accusation, why, then, the nation should be exceedingly grateful to be told of it, so that it might bring the actions of its own Government, or its local agents, into conformity with the policy which it had itself proclaimed.
One might suggest that, perhaps, Mr. Bevin, under the stress, was a little too ready to speak of, and to show, resentment. Once or twice he was not very far removed from the use of that phrase, which has such evil associations, "My patience is almost exhausted." As I suggested on a previous occasion he was perhaps in a little danger, against his will and expectation, of getting a reputation as a modern Palmerston. That is very dangerous to any statesman, particularly a statesman on the Left. It is, no doubt, very easy for anyone when his country is under attack or criticism, to give back as good as he gets, and he will
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secure at once an easy popularity in any country and at any time. Perhaps it would be well that our representatives in these negotiations should pay greater regard to that possibility.
Here and everywhere, after six years of war, all that the peoples want is a period of peace and quiet. We want to wind up our wartime commitments as completely as possible. British troops have been withdrawn from Iraq and Persia. They are being withdrawn from Syria and the Lebanon. We want to withdraw them as speedily as possible from Indonesia so soon as we can be assured that the withdrawal would not give rise to local chaos. The same is true with regard to Greece and Italy. If Russia is exercising pressure in Manchuria, in Persia, in the regions of Trieste and of Turkey and elsewhere I hope that our Government will not yield to any temptation to retaliate in kind. That might give rise to a most disastrous situation. After all, in Russia there are sudden frequent changes of policy both in external affairs and domestic; to the great embarrassment of the Communist parties in various parts of the world which find themselves swung from left to right and back again. It may be that Marshal Stalin, who has the reputation of a man of wisdom and foresight, may find that lately he has been on a mistaken course and that a different disposition in that quarter may lead to a sudden easing of the situation. However that may be, I am sure he would find an immediate response from this side.
The session of the United Nations Organization taken as a whole showed a long agenda, almost all of which was carried through with success and after discussion with but little controversy and no obstruction. It is an error to concentrate on difficulties and failures and not: to remember the successful beginning of the building up of a great constructive achievement. Remember, too, all the work done by the subsidiary and associated organizations connected with the United Nations. Attention has been concentrated on the Security Council because it was dealing with the most urgent, dangerous and exciting subjects, but without going into the matters dealt with, the mere names of all the various bodies which have already been set up and are now operating indicate the vastness of the field of work

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of the United Nations Organization. There are the Economic and Social Council, the Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, the Food and Agriculture Organization, the International Bank and Monetary Fund, the European Central Inland Transport Organization, the Trusteeship Council, dealing with colonies and mandates, and the International Court of Justice. There is a grand range of institutions already established. Furthermore, not yet integrally united with the United Nations, there are the International Labour Office and the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration. If it were not for U.N.R.R.A., while we sit here in your Lordships' House this afternoon we should be reading that hundreds and thousands of people at this moment would be dying of famine in various parts of the world.
That leads me, before I conclude, to a brief digression on the world situation in relation to food supplies, and any survey would be incomplete and unreal which omitted that. Famine is at hand in India and elsewhere and shortages are very acute in many countries in Europe. The Government is fully seized of all these matters and is showing every activity in its power. Nevertheless very drastic cuts have been announced in the supplies to Germany in the British zone and I feel somewhat concerned at the spirit which has been shown in this matter in this country in certain quarters and even occasionally by His Majesty's Government. The only interest in the subject seems to be to make sure that the Germans are not so starved that they die or become centres of infectious diseases, or that the disturbance of their minds is not so great that riots and violence might break out, needing suppression by our troops. In fact the attitude taken up was that it was our own interest which was involved and the people must be persuaded that what they did must be done for their own sakes. That seems to me to be the wrong spirit entirely in which to approach this matter.
I noticed that last year a statement was made by a British Colonel, a member of the British Military Government in Germany, which was reported in the Press and which seemed to me to be a dreadful statement. He said:
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"If we are bringing food in here it is because we do not want their rotten corpses to infect our troops."
I do not quote this officer's name because he may have been misreported, but surely that was a hateful thing to say. In the first place it would be a complete breach of International Law, because the Geneva Convention requires that it is the duty of the Occupying Power, so far as it is physically able to do so, to see that the population has sufficient food, irrespective of who was responsible for the war and irrespective of any crimes which may have been committed in its prosecution. Secondly, that utterance had very little of religion in it, either the Christian religion or any other religion. Thirdly, there may be a worse infection from Germany than physical diseases, and that is if we become infected with Nazi ideas of ruthlessness, injustice and cruelty.
There were some who became impatient at the length of the trials of the criminals of Belsen, criminals at whose crimes the "world grows pale," and they would have desired, apparently, to see the exercise of something like military lynch law and all of them shot straight away. But it was found that one-third of those charged with the crimes were not guilty of those crimes and they were acquitted and released. I regard that as one of the finest vindications of Allied justice. So it is with regard to the feeding of Germany. We have a duty there apart from our own interest. I do not think that the Germans should have precedence over the Indians. I think, on the other hand, that the need in India is probably greater at this moment than in Germany, but I think some criticism is merited of an utterance by the Minister of Food here which seems to have given the impression that so far as he was concerned he would rather see famine in Germany than some minor discomfort in Great Britain.
I see now in this great Organization of the United Nations, with its associated and similar bodies, the I.L.O. and U.N.N.R.A., the gradual beginnings perhaps of a World Government divided up in its several administrative departments. That gradual development is the right line of progress. In a generation or two this organization may grow in stature and strength, and grow together. That would be far better than some effort to establish suddenly a world constitution with a single Parliament elected by the

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2,000,000,000 peoples of the world, or even a Parliament elected for Europe alone, with a Federal Government left to wrestle as best it can with the sixty national Governments and Parliaments that would still be in existence. Growth by stages is the only stable and lasting growth. Let us recognize the difficulties that face the United Nations and let us not fall into despair because there are difficulties. I am certain that your Lordships' House, the Legislature as a whole and the British people, will devote their utmost efforts to promote the full success of this great international organization. I beg to move.
4.51 p.m.
LORD ALTRINCHAM: My Lords, at the beginning of his most interesting speech the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, expressed the opinion that your Lordships' patience and attention to speeches of any length was less than would have been shown by your ancestors. We may live in degenerate times, but I think while I am a very new recruit to this House I can, in your Lordships' name, assure the noble Viscount himself that his speeches are so witty and so illuminatedly phrased and illustrated that he is never likely to overtax the patience of this House. For my part, however, I do feel very much ashamed for taxing it once again this afternoon after having done so yesterday, and I am speaking now only because of the most regretted absence of the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, and because my colleagues on this Bench wish me to make observations on certain matters which are causing us all very grave concern. I shall not press for answers in this debate upon these questions. I realize that it may Ibe difficult for the Government to give information at the present time, but if the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack is able to give us any information on them when he winds up the debate this evening we should be very grateful to him. I am sure that your Lordships in all parts of this House very deeply regret the absence through indisposition of the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, and we look forward to the day when he is able to take his place on this Bench again.
The first quarter of the world on which I would like to say a very brief word is the Far East. Evidently events in that quarter of the globe are moving fairly
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rapidly towards a time when there must be a comprehensive decision upon a number of fairly cognate questions. I will discuss them separately, but they are linked with each other. They are questions of a political nature, of an administrative nature, of an economic nature and more particularly concerned with security. I am sure that we are all satisfied that in these matters the Governments of Australia and New Zealand, and the Government of India, are kept fully informed, but we should like to be assured of something more. We hope that they will be called into counsel before decisions are made both here and there, and that it will not be a case of their merely being informed at a distance about what is being done and their comments being communicated to us. I press that particularly because representatives of the Dominions, including the southern Dominions and India, will be here in the course of next month and a very good opportunity for a detailed discussion of these very serious Pacific questions might then be found.
Next I come to the Middle East. In Persia, Russia appears to have broken, in a very abrupt: mariner, a Treaty engagement which she made with us. She may have good reasons for doing so. We all know that difficulties sometimes arise about engagements of that kind and we have our own problems in regard to these questions of occupying forces ourselves, but I think we would hasten to give our Allies an explanation if we found ourselves compelled to default on any engagement we had made, and I should like to ask whether the Soviet Government has given any explanation of her action in Persia to her Allies.
I would say a few words also in regard to the Levant States, Syria and the Lebanon. I must express great regret at the fact that those two Governments, the Syrian and the Lebanese Governments, were not taken into consultation before the Anglo-French declaration of evacuation was made. After all, they are independent States and we were discussing what was going to take place in their territory. If the great Western Powers come to decisions and make declarations without taking such Governments into consultation, they inevitably gave the impression that those Governments are being treated as inferiors; and

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they create an atmosphere of difficulty which really ought not to arise. I am sure that the difficulties which have arisen over that joint Anglo-French statement—the serious effects of which are still felt in both those Republics—are difficulties which would not have arisen if they had been taken into consultation from the start. I hope that kind of mistake is now being corrected and that they are being fully consulted about everything which is proposed. There would certainly have been no appeal to the United Nations about France and ourselves if we had consulted them in advance, and I think it is a pity always to give the impression, even in the course of the proceedings of the United Nations Organization, that the affairs of these States are being discussed by the greater ones off-stage. It has a very unfortunate effect. We understand that Syria is now being evacuated and I hope that we shall hear that the evacuation of the Lebanon by British and French troops is not to be long delayed, because it is quite as important as the evacuation of Syria.
Now I come, with dome hesitation, to Egypt. The situation there has evidently deteriorated very gravely in the last six months. It is something quite unlike the situation which existed when I left the country last July. We on this side, and I am sure the whole House, greatly deplore recent events in Egypt and particularly the loss of life amongst our own Forces there and the loss of Egyptian lives. We hope that the Egyptian Government will prove capable now of reestablishing firm and adequate control. We also regret very much the straining of relations between that Allied country, which has been so vital to us in the war, and ourselves. To comment on the causes of those strained relations would, I think, serve no useful purpose at the present moment, and therefore I refrain. But one point I should like to make. I understand that we are now proposing to enter into negotiations with the Egyptian Government on the renewal or revision of the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty of 1936. I hope in that case that we shall be dealing with a thoroughly representative Egyptian delegation. I think it would be a good thing if it were known that we would much prefer to deal with a delegation which represents
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all the parties in Egypt at the present time.
I hope also that we ourselves will approach this question of revising the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty (which we have quite rightly expressed ourselves as being ready to do) on very broad lines. The strategic position of Egypt is of very great importance to us, as has been proved in all great wars, going back to Napoleonic times, and even before then. It is in some ways remarkably like our own. In the strategic sense, both the British Isles and Egypt are vital to causes which are of great importance to the world. We are both now much more vulnerable than we used to be in the past because of the development of the air arm. In the old days, Britain had her moat in the sea, and Egypt had her deserts. The sea is now not impassable, and the deserts are now not impenetrable. All that has been altered by the conquest of the air Both therefore have lost the kind of security on which they used to be able to count, and both have reason, to guard themselves more particularly against the danger in this era of the atomic bomb. If there is anywhere in the world more vulnerable to the atomic bomb than Great Britain it is Egypt, whose whole life depends on the broad stream of the Nile: Therefore for both countries security is not a question of the arrangements, military or otherwise, which are made within the national frontiers of that country. I need not say this to the noble Viscount opposite, who wants us all to become even more air-minded than we are. But security must obviously depend, in the case of Egypt just as in our own case, on an understanding with many States outside our own national frontiers, and indeed perhaps at some considerable distance from them.
The United Nations Organization cannot give a guarantee of security which we can take as adequate for ourselves, or which Egypt can take as adequate for herself, for some time. This Organization will take time to grow, and it seems to me, therefore, in the case of Egypt, we have an obvious case for a regional security arrangement such as is contemplated in the Charter of the United Nations. I do not see any value in discussing the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty or the new form which it might take, except on broad lines of that kind. As I say, I do not press for a statement on the sub-

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ject, but I hope the Government will be able to assure us in due course that negotiations are to proceed on that broader synthesis, on the wider stage, comprising other governments interested, which I have proposed.
Those are the only individual questions which I wish to raise, but before I sit down I should like to say a word upon the recent meeting of the United Nations Organization in London, which was so fully and illuminatingly dealt with by the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel. First I should like from this Bench to congratulate the Foreign Secretary on the firmness and cogency with which he represented us both in the Security Council and elsewhere. The case which he had to state for us on the issues which were raised was, I think, unanswerable. I think that was the general feeling of all present. But good as was the case he had to make, he made it admirably and undoubtedly created an impression upon the minds of all present which was valuable to this country. I would not compare the struggles which took place between our representative and the representative of Russia with the struggle between David and Goliath, because, while the comparison perhaps represents the size of our country as compared with the size of Russia, it does not do justice to the size of the two protagonists. Mr. Bevin, fortunately for us, I think, is not the light and slender figure which is usually associated with David, in the form, for instance, which was conceived by Donatello five hundred years ago, and immortalized in bronze. I should rather say it was a contest of two Goliaths, and we are very proud of our own Goliath, and of what he did for us there.
Everyone will agree, however, that while the conduct of our case on these individual issues could not have been more cogently or better carried out, single combat between outstanding champions of great Powers is not desirable as the normal procedure on the Security Council, particularly when the champions engaged are, and desire to remain, firm Allies. One of the things that happens is immense embarrassment of all the other States. The noble Viscount referred to them in his speech as representing a jury. In a sense that is true, but jurors are, after all, supposed to be men who can not have any possible interest in the decision the Court gives, who are abso-
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lutely independent in mind. That is not true of a single Power on the Security Council or the Assembly or elsewhere. These people are deeply interested and they are very embarrassed, more particularly by differences between great Powers, and I think we have to remember how much the Security Council and the Assembly is bound to suffer in that way unless the great Powers really pull together in the proceedings there.
For that reason we most particularly welcome the speech which was made after the meeting of the United Nations by the Foreign Secretary in another place. If I may say so, it seemed to us a very wise, a very timely and a very constructive speech. For one thing it lowered the temperature, which was very much required, and for another thing it showed quite clearly that the Foreign Secretary was prepared to go beyond these individual issues which are at present arising between Russia and ourselves, which are obviously only the symptoms of some deeper trouble, and to find the cause.
We want to find why Russia is acting in this way and how we can meet the Russian fears or the Russian ambitions; how we can justly meet them in order to prevent these struggles from taking place. Mr. Bevin suggested that he was ready for a fifty years' treaty with Russia in place of the twenty years' treaty which now exists. I think Mr. Eden welcomed that proposal, and Mr. Churchill, who was in some ways very critical of Russia in his recent speech: welcomed it too. I need hardly say that we on this side wholeheartedly concur. Russia, I am sure, is not out for war; it is inconceivable, I think, that any country which has suffered from war as Russia has suffered from this last war should be out for war, at any rate for any period that we need consider. Nor do I believe, from their history and their character, that the Russian people are a people disposed to aggression as the Germans undoubtedly were and perhaps still are.
I believe, therefore, that the Russian leaders, with the Russian people, are deeply anxious to avoid war. In the speech recently made by Marshal Stalin, the last speech at the election, he promised a great devotion to the reconstruction of the country, a much wider supply of commodity goods and a higher standard of life for everyone. All these things are

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quite incompatible with further preparation for war. I think we can undoubtedly say that, and it is some comfort to be able to say it. But there is no doubt that Russia is also very deeply preoccupied about security, and that she pursues it in what may prove a very dangerous way. I do not wonder at her preoccupation about security, because she has been the subject of invasion from the west of Europe five times in the course of about 150 years, and the scars left upon the Russian people by those invasions and, indeed, by those interventions, are very great. The suspicions created by the recent one still go very deep—there is no question about that.
What is deplorable, as it seems to us, is the fact that the Russian desire for security really takes a dangerously aggressive form. It seems to be a Russian maxim that there is no security for Russia anywhere except by the propagation of Communism. If that is really to be the Russian view, it is aggression against other States in the form which is bound, in the end, to lead to the very kind of struggle which she wishes to avoid. I think we ought somehow to try to bring that home. Communism, of course, feeds on oppression and misery, and we are all one with Russia in wanting to make an end of those things. The only security for our type of democracy is a contented people. If it cannot produce that, then certainly some authoritarian system will come in. Everything depends in Western Democracy upon the contentment of the people. I therefore profoundly agree with the Foreign Secretary that economic policy is fundamental to the way in which we approach the problems of the world at the present time. But the process of the propagation of Communism is, I think, not liked outside an area which can be regarded as within the Russian sphere.
The determined propagation of Communism where Communism has no natural footing at all is very disturbing to the Western world, which has its own history and its own ideals. If I may go back to a point on which I touched a minute or two ago, that kind of difference is particularly disturbing between the great Powers because it produces what your Lordships all know to be one of the classic causes of war, and that is the struggle between great Powers to control smaller ones. The desire to spread their
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influence here and there has proved one of the most fertile causes of war between great Powers. I think, therefore, there is a real danger which we ought to try to bring home, that this Russian insistence on the underground propagation of Communism is likely to produce the very lineup which Russia fears, and is likely to bring upon Russia consequences which are just the opposite of what she herself expects. The economic recovery which we desire and she desires may certainly prove impossible in many parts of Europe without a political démarche on this issue. Internal conflict will be too great. A broad understanding between ourselves and Russia is therefore indispensable.
I would say only one word in conclusion on how that understanding is to be reached. What is to be our road? Most certainly we do not wish to criticize attack or weaken the Russian system, economic or political, on its own ground. Russia has her own history which is very different from ours. She has a character and a temperament derived from her history, from her climate and from the inborn characteristics of her people which are very different from ours. We have no quarrel with a system which suits them and which they wish to adopt in their own sphere. All we want to do is to make sure of preserving our own and of building up the welfare of our people on the democratic Parliamentary lines which we ourselves prefer. I think we can say, with our hands on our hearts and with our hearts on our sleeves—Mr. Eden has often said it in another place—that there is really no conflict of vital interests between ourselves and Russia. I cannot conceive, apart from this question of the undermining of the political conceptions in which we believe, anything on which we are likely to have a vital difference with the Russian people. But there is a danger in that.
I read somewhere the other day an article in which that great European, Senor de Madariaga, described the danger of the present time as a danger arising from the fact that we had left behind us physical war but had passed into an era of mental war. I believe that to be true and I believe we ought to deal with it. This situation is extremely like the situation which confronted Canning and the British Government in 1820. Canning at that time had to deal with an authori-

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tarian system, the Holy Alliance, based on legitimism and autocratic government, and on the other side with a very new republicanism in the American continent and a growing nationalism in many parts of Europe itself. I read the other day the speech he made in the House of Commons in April, 1823. He said we were witnessing a strife between the spirit of unlimited monarchy and the spirit of unlimited democracy. He went on to say that between those two spirits it might be said that strife was either openly in action or covertly at work throughout the greater portion. That is a very true description of what is going on at the present time. We should all feel what Canning said he felt. "I should not sleep easy on my couch," he said, "if I were conscious that I had contributed in any way to precipitating a struggle between those rival principles."
What was Canning's method of dealing with a situation so similar to the situation with which we have to deal? He dealt with it by defining clearly, for everyone to know, what our position was, what we regarded as vital interests and what we were prepared to waive. There was, for instance, then as there is now, the question of Spain It was the time of the Bourbon restoration in Spain, and France marched in. Canning refused to intervene, and he refused to intervene on one condition, namely, that this conflict remained limited to Spain and did not bring in the Spanish-American Colonies, which he regarded as belonging to the freer world guaranteed by the Monroe Doctrine which we had then undertaken to support. As your Lordships know, in the years which followed, Europe went through many different evolutions. We sent "Redcoats" to Portugal, back to their old place in Lisbon, because Portugal was our Ally. But in all the evolutions of Europe which followed during the nineteenth century, that system did at any rate keep the peace and the world had a period of one hundred years free from any major disturbance.
I suggest that we define very closely what our vital interests are in Western Europe. The noble Viscount spoke of the importance of our being able to act in close concert with France and with our natural neighbour Powers. In the Mediterranean, in the Middle East and in
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the Far East let us say quite definitely what our vital interests are. Let us put our cards on the table, as the Foreign Secretary has always said he was ready to do. Russia has certainly done so, but the only trouble is that her vital interests always seem to be enlarging, and there must be a limit somewhere. The United States has done so too; she proclaimed very clearly what her vital interests were at the meeting at Moscow, and since then it has looked once or twice as if, having secured Russian agreement, she is prepared to disinterest herself in Europe and the Middle East. Some of the comment on Mr. Churchill's speech obviously takes that line. I suggest, then, that the Government should define exactly what our vital interests are, and I hope that an exchange of views between ourselves, Russia and the United States may very soon prove possible on that basis. We have something to contribute. We have, I think, a freer international sense than either of those two great Powers. We have long had to deal—much longer than they have—with the outside world. We are the heart of a Commonwealth which consists of absolutely free but nevertheless very unequal States. We have therefore, I think, an understanding in these matters which they in their very much more closed systems have not got. I hope therefore that we shall play this middle role which deems to me essential to our security and to the peace and recovery of Europe, and that we shall begin the process by stating quite clearly what our vital interests are.
5.25 p.m.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (VISCOUNT STANSGATE): My Lords, I should like at the beginning of my anxious task first of all to congratulate the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, on his speech and, secondly, to complain that the case I hoped to be privileged to make was made by him far more effectively. It is not the first time in forty years here and elsewhere that I have looked to him for leadership. There is a measure of agreement, but some aspects of the case as I shall present them may not meet with the approval of all of your Lordships, and, if so, I hope you will believe I am exercising what I understand to be the right of a member of this House to express himself freely in the public interest. The noble Viscount referred to the speech by Mr. Churchill. I will say

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nothing about that, except that the Government's policy is based not upon groups of nations but upon the United Nations Organization and the unity of the world. The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, dealt with the recent meeting of U.N.O., and there are some remarkable features about it. The fact that its positive achievements were overshadowed by differences which the Press thought more dramatic makes it more desirable that we should bring home the very significant things that in fact were done. VJ Day was in August and by Christmas, after the wonderful work of the Preparatory Commission, the foundations of this Organization were laid. Compare this with the first Assembly of the League of Nations in Geneva, which did not take place till 1920. The second thing was that it included every nation in the world, great and small, except the Nazi and Fascist nations, and we hope that will come later. It was a true World Assembly. The League of Nations contained no Russia and no America. This time, so far from the United States being isolationist, I do not know how many of its cities competed for the honour of being the birthplace of U.N.O., as fifty-two cities, I believe, competed for the honour of being the birthplace of Homer.
A NOBLE LORD: Seven.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I thought it was fifty-two, but then I am not an educated man. Furthermore, there is no sign of this Organization ceasing to be the permanent organ of world affairs. Those are very great gains. As regards the Assembly, to anyone who is interested in the growth of democratic Parliaments, the general features of the development of the Assembly are extremely encouraging. Firstly, all, great and small, had their say; there was freedom of speech. Secondly, there was a willingness to accept the decisions of the majority. Whenever there was a disagreement with the Soviet representative it was headlined in the Press, but in true fact time and time again in the Assembly the Soviets were defeated on various points, as, for example, the status of the World Federation of Trade Unions, yet they accepted the defeat and worked wholeheartedly and cordially with all the rest. This willingness to accept the decisions of the majority was one of the most notable features of the first meeting of the
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Assembly. Thirdly, there was the general will to make the thing work. I think if you have freedom of speech, acceptance of majorities and will to make it work, you get a very good catalogue of the elements which have made for the success of our own Mother of Parliaments.
Of course it was not in the Assembly that the Press found its interest; it was in the Security Council, because the affairs of the Security Council were of more immediate and more general interest. At the conclusion of the war it is quite natural that every State should look about with a view to taking measures to ensure that this sort of thing shall not happen again, and that its own security is assured. Take the United States; we see the precautions that they have been taking in the Pacific and in the Caribbean, at Chapultepec, and all the other steps which have been taken to secure freedom from all aggression in the Western Hemisphere. In the case of the British Commonwealth, we differ in our geographical distribution from other great Empires; we are scattered; we are not a compact mass, and for us it is not a question of hemispheric protection or of land frontiers. Our concern is not so much with frontiers as with our communications, and it is natural and right that we should secure these.
Then you come to the U.S.S.R. It is a great land mass, and the demand to have secure borders is in every way justifiable. One of the questions we are discussing today is whether security is the whole aim of Russian policy. If I say a word or two about Russian policy to-day, it is because I believe that an understanding and an appreciation of the Russian point of view is one of the most important elements if we are to have a happy issue from our conflicts. We have most of us lived long enough to remember the birth of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. In those days it was regarded by many in Europe as an unwanted child. Many people and newspapers looked hopefully forward for the demise of that child and did what they could to bring it about. There were twenty years of ostracism which was only broken by Mr. Anthony Eden's very successful visit to Moscow in 1935. These are all things to which the British public cannot pay too much attention.
We must understand the Russian view of the invasion. I will not go back to

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the time of Napoleon or the Crimea, but will speak only of the 1914 war, the intervention in 1919, and 1941. Especially in 1941 did the Russian attitude toward the Germans develop. I had dinner with a Russian General the other day, and I asked him about that beautiful little palace of the Empress Catherine at Tsarkoe Selo and what became of it. "Oh," he said, "the Germans burnt it. They destroyed it entirely." It had no military value at all, but they destroyed it because as conquerors they were anxious everywhere to extirpate physically as far as possible the Russian people, and, what is very precious to the Russians and to the world, Russian culture. In trying to assess their attitude towards things, we ought to remember first the humiliation of Brest-Litovsk and the touch-and-go of Stalingrad, which ended in that amazing triumph which we all welcomed with pride and joy. It is not surprising, therefore, if Russia to-day feels a sense of giant strength.
Anything that we could do to understand the Russians and to make them understand us, I believe, would be well clone. The study of their language, the study of their literature, the interchange of people, would all help. There was a Youth Conference recently in Moscow, and I believe it met with very great success. If we could persuade the Russians to come here in numbers and let us go there equally, it would, I am confident, make for the good of the world. I wish it were possible to persuade them to accept the agencies for spreading understanding in their own country. What the noble Viscount said under that head was very true. Some means must be found of letting the Russian people know that they are facing in this country not a Government that is hostile, or that ever was hostile, or that contains elements that were ever hostile to them. The Government consists very largely of people who in the darkest days of Soviet history stood by them when they had few friends in the world. A Government representing the common people and I believe representing a nation which holds by all that Mr. Bevin's words import when he said he would welcome an extension of our treaty with Russia to 50 years and expressed the earnest wish that we should grow together in confidence.
One might expect that the Soviet Union would be mainly preoccupied with
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the further development of the unlimited resources of their own vast territory. Marshal Stalin's election speeches, as the noble Lord has said, indicated that his mind was turned inwards. That would be all to the good, and one would expect that would be their natural attitude. Unfortunately, from day to day there have arisen new elements of friction. The noble Lord is a historian. I am not. He was able to quote Canning, but I have lived long enough to be familiar with some of the names of the places which come into this—Finland, Poland, the Straits question, the Persian and other questions have before now affected Russian and British relations. They have affected our relations for a century. I do not say that all of them, but most of them are old issues. They belong to the times of the Tsars. I do not remember that people complained very much in those days. "We don't want to fight, but by jingo if we do" was written in the year I was born. But people did not think so much of the Russian terror in those days. There was sometimes friction between the two Governments but we managed to get through after the Crimean war without any war until they were our Allies in 1914. We are not living in the time of the. Tsars now. We have not in this country a Government or people with the mentality of those days. And yet these problems arise again.
What are these problems? Let us look at them frankly. Let us have all the cards on the table, and seek for a mutual understanding. That I believe is the general desire of the people in this country. But it must be remembered that we live in new times. There is the wireless to be taken into account—I am not sure whether Marconi was a world-benefactor or not. We live in days of propaganda, and it conies not only from Russia, but from elsewhere too. There have been people in this country who thought that world-opinion could be revolutionized by wireless propaganda on the principle of "What I say three times is true". Not: only wireless but there have been between the wars in Europe great developments of propaganda by other means than wireless. If when travelling abroad you went into a barber's shop for a haircut, you were almost certain to be faced with a picture of the local dictator. It might be Metaxas or

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Mussolini or someone else, but there was his portrait facing you, and underneath there was some slogan—you could not read it, of course, but perhaps it meant, "Help him to finish the job", or something of that sort.
We, in this country, do not believe in propaganda. We believe in debate. The House will, no doubt have learned with pleasure that the ministry of Information has been abolished. We believe in debate. But there it is: there is this propaganda being poured out, and it is regarded in some quarters as a modern method of diplomacy. The question is, has the institution of U.N.O in these circumstances improved or worsened our condition? I remember when I was a boy going to see a play called Diplomacy. I do not know who was the author of that play. Perhaps some noble Lord can tell me.
A NOBLE LORD: Sardou.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: In the play Diplomacy we are led to understand that the fates of nations were settled by secret papers which were passed into the snowy bosom of a traitorous bathykolp. That is not the method now. There has been a brutal frankness in the debates of U.N.O. which leave no one in any state of doubt. The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, said that be thought that at times Mr. Bevin was too downright. Still it is very difficult to conduct a debate unless you are downright, and I think it was a good thing to say plainly what was meant. It was said in the face of the world. Are we better or worse in that respect? I say we are better.
Question after question was raised about Persia, Greece, the Levant and so on. The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, spoke about the proposal of a commission for Indonesia. We were there doing the bidding of the Supreme commander in the Pacific. That was our job. Whether it would help negotiations between Shahrir and the Dutch I very much doubt. I think that was a ground of rejection. To turn to Persia, which was certainly a puzzling business, I am informed that no answer has been received to the note we sent to Moscow, but the great thing is that it has not passed out of the grip of U.N.O., this
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world organization. This was a newborn organization and yet this infant has carried a great burden. It would be a mistake to overstrain it and bring before it subjects which are not properly those for it to deal with. If it did so well as an infant I think we may look hopefully to the help which it may give to the world.
It is a pity that in the Security Council more attention was not given to the immediate and urgent problems of the world. The immediate problem of the world is hunger. There is a grave food shortage not only this year but, unless the weather changes or great new areas are sown, for at least two years to come. But in all this the Assembly was not altogether helpless. There was a debate on U.N.R.R.A. which I think secured the addition of some £20,000,000 to its funds and there was a general debate on famine which led to the great growers of food making generous offers—I am referring to Canada, Australia and America—to help to meet the needs of the world from their resources. There was, in addition, as has been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, the setting up of the Council of Human Rights and of the Social and Economic Council. The Council of Human Rights was set up on the motion of the Ukraine, a very interesting fact. The Social and Economic Council envisages a vast scheme of world economic planning, a conception which comes from the Soviet Union itself.
People say, and it is suggested very much at the present time, that the world is in the grip of conflicting ideals and I think that here I am going to differ from the noble Lord. On the one side is political liberty and on the other side economic democracy. As for individual liberty, the love of it is in our very bones. It is in these islands that it saw its birth, growth and triumph and it has spread into a commonwealth of free peoples, a constellation of States great and small, each enjoying its own sovereignty, which might well be the model and envy of the smaller States of the world. This is for the white peoples but now at this moment of military success we are offering—I would almost say pressing—freedom on what has hitherto been a dependent Empire. I do not think that the match of that has ever been found.
But political liberty is only half the picture. Just as there can be political

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tyranny, so there can be economic tyranny and never has it been so needful to plan not for the few but for the many. Some would represent political freedom as the enemy of economic freedom and say the price of political freedom is economic servitude. In that conflict would lie disaster. I should like to read a passage from The Times of Wednesday which sums up this point. It says:
"Western democracy and Communism … have much to learn from each other—Communism in the … establishment of political rights, western democracy in the development of economic and social planning. The ideological warfare between western democracy and Communism cannot result in an out-and-out victory for either side. The issue will be determined neither by clashes of eloquence nor by clashes of arms, but by the success of the great nations in dealing with the problems of social organization…"
In a word, our only hope lies in an integrated effort to satisfy both the material and spiritual needs of one world
5.48 p.m.
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER: My Lords, the fears I felt when I first addressed this House are not really as great as when I rise to speak of foreign affairs knowing myself to be a political theorist among practical statesmen. I recall the story of the American who had to meet Booker Washington at Washington at the White House. He said "I was not going to call him sir, I could not very well call him nigger, so I compromised and called him professor." I am happy that this debate was opened by a distinguished honorary fellow of my college from whom I have learnt so much and I remember that there was a time years ago when a fellow called Ned Grigg and I used to belong to the same society, which curiously enough was a Liberal one. It is difficult to choose in debating politics whether you will survey mankind not exactly from China to Peru but from China to Azerbaijan, or whether you will deal with generalities and fall into the danger of being vague and abstract. I should like to start with China with which I have very strong concern, but I will not.
What I mainly want to say is that in this matter we want to distinguish between short-term foreign policy and long-term foreign policy and be very clear about the relation of the two. What we are concerned about is peace, the
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peace of the world and the organized peace of the world. After this devastating and frightful world war there is not very much danger of another world war for quite a time. There are ground swells existing and there are rows and tryings-on here and there, but nobody can really believe that any of the great Powers are going to make war for quite a time or even think about it, and therefore we have got time. How long we have I do not suppose anybody knows. I do not suppose anybody knows how long it will be before there comes a generation which runs public opinion which has forgotten about the war and does not share the opinion of its elders and in fact regards them with contempt. I should have thought possibly fifteen years is safe, though it is ominous to remember that fifteen years from 1918 comes to 1933 and we remember what happened in the spring of 1933.
We have fifteen years to make a repetition of world war impossible. However silly we are, even if our politics are as silly as those we followed between the wars, we have that breathing space. What we have got to ask is whether we are laying foundations of a lasting peace, and whether we are making a machinery and an institution which will meet the crisis if and when it comes, assuming it: will not come for some time. I think that is the attitude we ought to take of these things which have happened. May I first say that if you think about that time you have to wait, the fifteen years, do not let us rely on our maintaining the same attitude, our feeling the same, or even persisting in the same alliances.
It has been my fate and happiness in the years between the wars to be in the position where I saw generation after generation of young men coming up. I could see the difference between the generation of men who had been through the war; then that troubled generation which had just been waiting to go into the war and never did; then the generation who had just heard of the war—but that is all—and then the generation who had been born after the war and to whom the war was just a thing which people talked about, and I think that would quite certainly happen again. My father, who was a Presbyterian Minister, had a sermon on the last verse of the Old Testament, "The

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hearts of the fathers shall be turned to the children and the hearts of the children turned to the fathers." Being a Scot and, therefore, having a sense of humour, he used to say the text did not say that the heads of the fathers would be turned to the heads of the children, because that was too great a miracle even for God, and I am sure that is true.
I am sure that if we think that those who come after us a generation hence will regard us with an unwonted and unusual respect, we are mistaken. There will come a time when the youngest of us here will possibly find out that their children are saying, "Do not go into the dining room, Dad and Mum are telling each other what they did to win the Great War, and do not let us have any more to do with it." I am sure there will be that revulsion of feeling. I recommend your Lordships to read, if you have not already done so, a book by R. B. McCallum, called Public Opinion and the Last Peace, where he traces the quite incredible reversions in English public opinion which happened in those years. That is nothing to the reversions which happened in America. I think we may be perfectly certain that would happen again, and unless our foreign policy is based upon enduring interests and real foundations, it will not hold.
One of the greatest qualities of the English is, I think, that they have short memories. I say the English because my nation, unfortunately, has rather longer memories, and if you press me too much I will begin to talk about Bannockburn. But the memories of my nation are nothing compared with the length of the memories of the Irish. When I talk to my noble friend Lord Pakenham about Ireland he is apt to get to Cromwell in about two sentences and to Strongbow in about five. Europe is full of people who think with hate and bitterness of what people did at Mohacz or Kossovo. These memories are the curse of mankind. It is one of the really great qualities of the English that they do not remember, and they meet the occasion at the time as the situation demands. Do not let us be ashamed of it, and do not think we are suddenly going to change and have longer memories, because we are not.
To rely on teaching that the Germans are always wicked, the French are always
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good, and the Russians—I am not quite sure what—we shall find it will not work. We have got to try and do something more enduring. We have, therefore, I think, to, try and build an institution which will stand the weight when weight is put upon it, and everybody knows that it will not do that now. One has got to ask what chance is there of doing that? Here, and I say this with great trepidation, because I see in front of me the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, who knows infinitely more about this than I do (and at whose feet in this respect though not perhaps in others I sit with humility) something about the atom bomb.
We are inclined, when we look at the working of the U.N.O., to say that its great defect is the veto, and that we should try to remove vetoes and get a body which can, by a majority and not unanimously, resolve to take decisive action. I venture to say we had better not be in too great a hurry about that. I want to say about the U.N.O. that I am sure we should use all the time we have and not try and produce a beautiful and perfect edifice which is quite lovely, with the one exception that the people do not trust it. It is much better to have an imperfect machine which people have tried and worked and trust rather than the lovely edifice which people do not trust. Therefore, I think we ought to go slowly and carefully, to recognize—and this is a great advantage—that what is wanted is not made yet and we cannot rely upon it too much.
I think one of the things that went wrong last time was that the formation of the League of Nations was so remarkable that people tended to say "The whole thing is done and we need not worry." When I look back in years between the wars, being a man, as I am sure your Lordships have observed, of a singularly impartial mind, I think all parties were really to blame. I do not propose to say anything about the obvious beam in the eyes of the noble Lords opposite me, but I want to say something about the equally obvious mote in my own. I think a great mistake was made on our part of the House in that there was a section which tended to say: "There is the League of Nations and that is that. We need not worry, we have done it." Nobody is going to think that we have done that with the

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Security Council as it now stands. There is, therefore, some consolation in the kind of things that happen on the Security Council. We recognize at once it is an instrument which is not yet able to do very much except keep the Germans in their place—and they are already there—and keep the Japanese in their place, and they are already there. No person in his senses is very much afraid of them. There are quite different things we are afraid of, but we do not say too much about them.
The one thing I think that overshadows what is happening at the present time is the effect of the atomic bomb and the fact that the secrets of the atomic bomb are not shared. Can anybody really doubt that is what is wrong with Russia? No one can. It is right to say that what Russia is concerned in is security, and she is concerned because of the fact that the terrible power of the atomic bomb is shared by certain nations and is not shared by her. It seems to me that, being in that position, she is just making herself as unpleasant and as awkward as she can, and she proposes to continue to do that. That is the way she plays that game, and I do not think we ought to be too worried about that part of it. What we have got to be worried about is what have we to do about the atomic bomb?
How long have we got? I do not know. The noble Lord opposite probably does know, or he can conjecture. Let me guess that we have got from three to five years; I do not know if that is wrong. I am going to guess that for the moment. I do not suppose that we have very much longer. What are we going to do and what do we think we ought to do? Ought we to try and hurry up and have a world organization to which we can trust this frightful power of destruction? I am of a mind to suggest we should do nothing of the kind at all. What we should try to do is to see that the atomic bomb is used for no purpose whatsoever, not even for the purpose of a world organization if such exists. Does anybody really suppose that Russia or any suspicious nation is going to be happy in entrusting that frightful power to a world organization of any kind? That is surely the real and formidable problem that we face.
What are we going to do with a power of this kind? I am told by some people that the appearance of the atomic bomb
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will at once make us give up all our distrust and agree to entrust the power of it only to the Security Council if vetoes are removed. I do not really believe it. I do not really see that we are to suppose that a Government, even if it were elected by the people is always just as good as those and never does any harm. After all, there was a man called Hitler who was quite legally elected by adult suffrage, who got power in a perfectly legal and orderly and quasi-democratic way. I think that is entirely the wrong line to follow with regard to the atomic bomb. What I should like to see is something to ensure that the thing is never used. As I see it, it should not even be used for the maintenance of law and order. It does not pay to use too terrible weapons for police purposes. We all know that one of the difficult things about international relations under the League of Nations was that the sanctions were too weighty to be easily used. The law should not depend upon that type of force. If policemen could only stop little boys from stealing apples by ham-stringing little boys, they would not ham-string little boys, they would leave them alone and the law would not be respected. The law is respected just as much because you can fine people 15s. and costs as because you can in the last resort hang, draw and quarter them.
These terrible weapons are not of any use. And yet although you do not want that force, you do want force to keep the peace, and there I suggest that people are wrong in supposing that the atomic bomb has made armies and other forms of force obsolete. What we want to do then with regard to the atomic bomb is to try and find some way to ensure that these powers are never used. We want to concentrate our power in such a way that other people all over the world will know that there is at the disposal of some organization, more scientific knowledge, more up-to-date instruments, more up-to-date equipment than anybody else is likely to have, so that it will be certain that if anybody else uses the atomic bomb there will be prompt and immediate and proper retaliation. I think that is the only way we can stop it. How are we going to ensure that? How are we going to ensure that this power can be used for that purpose and no other? I do not know I can only feel my way by sug-

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gestions. I suggest to your Lordships that the example of the United States Constitution with its divided powers is far more suggestive than our Constitution with its concentration of powers under Parliament. I want you to consider, as I consider myself, an organization like the Supreme Court. Who controls the Supreme Court in the United States? Nobody. They have their own legal training, and their own legal tradition.
The only way of controlling the use of a weapon so terrible as that of the atomic bomb is that it should be in the hands of people whom you can trust not to want to use it for any other purpose. That is the only way we can stop it. How can we provide a body of that kind? It ought not to be as difficult as it sounds. We all know masses of people whom we can perfectly trust to have the atomic bomb if they could be insulated from national strife and political influences.
When I was an undergraduate with the noble Lord opposite to me I used to go and hear lectures given by Dr. Edward Caird, and I remember a tag of Hegel's which he quoted: "The wounds of reason can only be healed by deeper reason." The wounds of the scientists can only be healed by the scientists and I take courage because there seems to be growing up a real international world of scientists who live on sharing their views and discoveries, who do not believe in secrecy, and believe in publication, and believe they have a public duty. Can we not put them in the position where they have responsibility and power? If you could there would grow up in that community of scientists a feeling of responsibility of the kind that there is in the legal body like that of the Supreme Court in the United Nations.
If I am not boring your Lordships, may I just put to you what I would like to suggest in a formal way? I have three proposals: (a) that all information be given and the laboratories and factories entrusted to a special council consisting of scientists elected from each of the eleven nations represented on the Security Council and a number of scientists from other nations co-opted by the first eleven, and an equal number of international lawyers elected by the principles governing the elections to the
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International Court at The Hague; (b) that this joint council be entrusted with research into the development of atomic energy, both constructive and destructive, to present a periodic report and a budget to be assessed on the various nations according to their taxable capacity; and (c)—and here is the vital and, I admit, dubious proposal—that this council be given authority to consult at any time with the military staff committee mentioned in the Charter, and to have authority to use the national air force contingents mentioned in Article 45 for retaliation on anyone using the atomic bomb or other indiscriminating weapons put on a prohibited list by the Security Council, but for no other purpose whatever.
I do not know if that is practical politics; I think myself it is. I should like, however, to know what else is, in the situation in front of us. I think there is hope that such a council might grow fairly quickly if it had the great good fortune to be guided by somebody with anything like the sense and constructive power of the great John Marshall who made the Supreme Court of the United States. It might grow in that tradition, and then you would have, for the first time, a body concerned with world unity and security which was powerful and had overwhelming force behind it. If you did that, I think you might bring it about that these horrible things were never used at all.
But I quite agree that this would have a chance only if we could somehow or other get through the period of bickering and distrust with which we are now confronted. May I just end by saying something about that? It is clear that what dominates us is, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Altrincham, has already said, that world peace is largely in the hands of three great Powers, two of whom, though in different degrees, are new comers to this game of world responsibility. We have therefore got to be patient. I think—and on this I venture, with great respect, to differ from what Mr. Churchill said about the matter—that we may exaggerate the extent to which we feel just the same and act in the same way as the United States. Their Constitution, their traditions and other things about them do not allow them to play the international game with such freedom and comparative ease as we do. They have

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their own manners and ways of conducting foreign relations, and they are not exactly ours. We have to get accustomed to them.
I should say that that is far more true of Russia. When I read the proposals of Mr. Vyshinsky, or the various things which are stated in Russian papers, I am reminded of a governess of my mother's, who used to say to her young charges: "It is not that your manners are bad, my dear, but that you have no manners at all." I think that is the way in which Russia meantime acts. We ought not to be too disturbed about it. I think that Russia, for reasons largely connected with her distrust, "tries it on," and if what she tries comes off, so much the better for her and so much the worse for us. I feel also quite certain that no good whatever is done by appeasement or by being "smarmy," or by not saying exactly what we think about it. I believe we get ever so much more respect from the Russians for standing up to them. They have no grudges about it; it is a difference in manners.
There is a story of Grattan's Parliament. There was a very fierce debate in the House (and your Lordship's will forgive my quoting this even in inverted commas). One statesman, making a fierce attack on another, referred to his "procuress of a wife and his two prostitutes of daughters." Somebody said afterwards to him: "But you must have known the lady was in the House with her two daughters." "Oh yes, I did," he replied, "I came with them to the House." It was all in the game that he said those things, and I venture to suggest, quite seriously, that Russia is partly in that tradition.
One last word. May I ask what our end is? It is a double end: the common end of trying to organize the peace of the world, but also the end of holding up the ideals, the purposes and the hopes of Western Europe and Western European democracy. If we desert and are unfaithful to that, we shall be doing a frightful wrong to the world. It is worth our being clear about the different conceptions of democracy as held by the Russians and as held by ourselves; otherwise confusion is the only result. Russia, quite sincerely, has the same view of democracy as had Aristotle. He defined democracy as, "Government of the poor,
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by the poor, for the poor," and Russia thinks the same. Russia, therefore, if she contemplates the existence of the noble Lords opposite, is bound sincerely to say: "Is this called democracy? Why are these people not shot?" And I am not quite certain whether that would be confined to the opposite side of the House. I also wish to say that I am not sure that in certain historical or social conditions that is not the only kind of democracy you could have. I am not sure that Russia is wrong in supposing that democracy in, let us say, Rumania or Bulgaria, or some of these South-Eastern Europe countries, can mean much else but that.
We mean by democracy the kind of thing in which there is a responsible and tolerated opposition. If you will excuse me being pedantic, nobody meant that by the word "Government" before Oliver Cromwell; until his time we all supposed that you had to believe the same thing and have the same faiths and that toleration was a wrong thing. I used to have the pleasure and pride of possessing a rare American pamphlet called The Simple Cobbler of Agawan in America, which, in about page 4, suddenly says:
"My heart has naturally detested four things; the adulteration of the coinage; the standing of the Apocrypha in the Bible; the coming in of foreigners to take the bread out of our countrymen's mouths, and the toleration of divers religions or of one religion in segregant shapes.'
Then it goes on to say that:
"He that assents to this last, if he examine his conscience by daylight, he will find he is either an atheist, a heretic or at the best the captive of some lust."
That is the view of people who do not believe in toleration and who passionately believe the other way. It will, I think,. take a long time before that great country in Eastern Europe, from whom we have learnt a great deal, learns the lesson it took us in favourable circumstances a very long time to learn. But that does not make toleration and our kind of democracy any the less precious, and it does not hide the fact that were that form of democracy to go and were it to be replaced by a democracy based on government of the poor by the poor the world would not be greatly poorer. We have a perfect right—indeed I think we have a duty—to uphold in every possible way we can that conception of western democracy,

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and if we think it can best be done by new organisations and by relations between the Western European powers, we have a perfect right to do it, and I hope we will, quite clearly and emphatically, say we have and do so.
In this division of opinion on democracy in Europe, what is to happen to the ambiguous heart of Germany? I say "ambiguous" because Germany has never been quite one or the other. I think it would have been a frightful loss to Europe if German thought had not been there at all. If you think of the centre of Europe as a great vacuum, I think you are entirely mistaken. To go back to what I said earlier, I think you are also mistaken if you suppose we are going to think about the Germans twenty or twenty-five years hence in the same way as we think of them now. I think it is time we stopped indulging in what I call inverted sentimentalism about Germany and asked ourselves what we are going to do about the existence in Europe of 60,000,000 of one of the most capable and efficient races in the world. I do not know the answer. Somehow we have got to contrive to give to Germany something to do without making it possible for her to rule anybody else. I do not think a nation as great as Germany is going to be anything but a source of unhappiness and misery until she is given something to do, but I am sure it has got to be done by making perfectly certain that she cannot do the same as she has done in the past. I see from the Order Paper that we are going to have a discussion about Germany in the future, so I will say no more. Nobody really supposes that we will get democracy and understanding of proper beliefs in Europe by people who are allowed to be desperate and starving. That situation breeds despair, and despair breeds more Hitlers.
6.26 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord who has spoken with such wit and such wisdom about the connexion between the short-distance view and the long-distance view on foreign policy. I am sure that what he has said to you about the atomic bomb and the form in which he has drawn up his proposals will receive careful attention from statesmen
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as well as from scientists. My remarks will be confined to a single immediate illustration of the menace of famine, of which the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, spoke in his opening speech. I refer to the drastic cut last Monday in bread and cereals for the average consumer in the British zone in Germany from 1,500 to 1,000 calories. It was a decision of the Cabinet, made, it is said, in face of a direct report from Field-Marshal Viscount Montgomery that this cut would immediately lead to a fall in the output of the Ruhr coal mines, the risk of civil troubles, riots and disorders and a new strain on the British Forces, as well as epidemics difficult to control or confine. The cut is so serious and has such obvious connexion with foreign affairs that I have been encouraged by the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, to bring it up in this debate.
First, I would like to remark on the extraordinary suddenness of the cut. It has surprised the British officers, it has surprised the Americans and also the Russians, and to the Germans it has brought consternation. Compared with the average British consumer's allowance of 2,800 calories, 1,500 calories means bare subsistence, but that level has been maintained for the last few months by the great ability of the Military Government. The food deficit in the British zone and the reasons for it have long been known. Why is it that, like a bolt from the blue, the order comes now for a reduction by one-third to 1,000 calories, which is near starvation? We are also told that the deficit is so grave that unless large new supplies are brought in the rations will fall to 700 calories by the end of April, and some mention a lower figure and an earlier date. That, for large numbers of the urban population, in the end means a sentence of death. I would like to remind your Lordships that the rations in Belsen camp started at 1,200 calories and never fell below 800. I am quite certain that Military Government has done, and is doing, everything it can to emphasize the gravity of the crisis. There are obvious economic and political repercussions. For example, there must be an immediate fall in the output of coal in the Ruhr; all categories of consumers are affected and severe cuts have been made in the extra rations for the heavy workers. It is impossible for the Indus-

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trial workers and for the coal miners, with such reductions, to work to their maximum capacity, and the effects on the European countries which depend so much for their real on the Ruhr must be disastrous.
Nor can Britain, with its own coal-mining difficulties, well supply the deficit. It is feared that there may be riots and civil disorders Last Friday's Daily Telegraph, describing the consternation that had been caused amongst the Germans in the British zone, referred to shadow plans in the possession of local military commanders for dealing with riots." Does the Government suppose that British soldiers could fire on a starving population, including very many women and children, that permanent order could be maintained by such methods, or that democratic recovery could be hastened by such methods? The real question is not whether order will be kept by the soldiers, but whether the soldiers will stand for famine conditions of such gravity in an area under their control. I am sure that your Lordships will not have forgotten the lesson of the end of the last war when Field Marshal Lord Plumer secured the ending of the blockade by Mr. Lloyd George's Government because he said his soldiers on the Rhine could not stand for the misery of a starving population about them. And what about the political effects on the rest of Germany. With 21,000,000 in the British zone starving, and millions likely to die, with industry dead or decaying, British prestige is bound to suffer a deadly blow, and the whole Western democratic idea, of which Lord Lindsay has just spoken, will be fatally compromised, and nihilism will get further and further sway. I do not want to exaggerate the political consequences of the decision, but even if my prophecy were ill-founded, I am on still stronger ground when I turn to our moral obligations. It was Mr. Churchill, speaking in the name of the Coalition Government, who in August, 1940, in the darkest days of the war, said:
"We can and will arrange in advance for the speedy entry of food into any part of the enslaved area … so that there will always be held up before the eyes of the peoples of Europe, including—I say it deliberately—the German and Austrian peoples, the certainty that the shattering of the Nazi power will bring to them all immediate food, freedom and peace."
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It was Mr. Churchill, again, who said, speaking for the Coalition Government on January 18, 1945:
"The President of the United States of America and I, in your name, have repeatedly declared that the enforcement of unconditional surrender upon the enemy in no way relieves the victorious Powers of their obligations to humanity, or of their duties as civilized and Christian nations."
Addressing the Germans, he added:
"We demand unconditional surrender, but you well know how strict are the moral limits within which our action is confined. We are no extirpators of nations, or butchers of peoples. We make no bargain with you. We accord you nothing a: a right. Abandon your resistance unconditionally. We remain bound by our customs and our nature."
These pledges, which we all regarded as binding, involve the whole British nation in a moral responsibility.
In addition to the economic there is a political and psychological crisis. A great part can and ought to be played by the Germans themselves in the battle with famine. Let the German farmers recognise their obligations to the country. Let the producers and the distributors work to their maximum capacity. Let it be brought home to every man in the British zone that his personal contribution to recovery is vital. Let central economic agencies be set up in Germany, able to negotiate with other countries about imports. Let industrial activities be spurred so that they may produce exports. But, desirable as all these things are, they can-riot be effectively achieved by the men to whom the appeal is made unless they are given a proper responsibility and a voice.
At present all open criticism of Military Government is banned, and the Parties and the industrial and public organizations are powerless compared with the overriding power of Military Government. As long as the authoritarian system lasts, it is idle to admonish these organizations and leaders to rally to the support of an official policy. Here is a test of Western democracy. In the Russian zone political activity is encouraged, although it is of a nature and pattern very different from our own. With everything at stake in coping with the famine, is Germany to be allowed to see no other pattern of democracy than the Communist? So, in order to get the maximum effort out of the German people for production and for exports to pay for the food, let the Government take steps to give the fullest opportunities in the British

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zone for self-government, free speech and free assembly.
But when everything possible has been done by Military Government, and the Control Commission and the Germans themselves, it is true that the crucial factor is the shortage of wheat. As the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, has said, this is not a question of a few months or even of one year, it must extend over at least two years. There is a world deficit for 1946 of seven million tons of wheat and a probable world deficit, unless steps are taken, of eight million tons for 1947. No wonder that high expectations, or high hopes, are entertained of Sir Ben Smith's mission to Washington, and of his conversations with the Combined Food Board. The problem of hunger is a world problem. The whole system of allocations should be put on a world basis and unless there is a general revision of allocations, the political, economic repercussions will be world wide, and all over the world in India as well as in Europe, millions will die.
Lastly, something may very well be expected from ourselves in the United Kingdom. In spite of the strain of the war years, the nation has, according to statistics, enjoyed good health all round and according to the report of the Ministry of Health for 1944, the civilian death rate for that year reached a record. It is a great tribute to the temper of our people that they have stood the controls and the sacrifices for so long and with so little complaint, but I believe that if the British people are informed of all the facts they would be ready to stand the controls and the sacrifices a little longer still. According to Mr. James Byrnes, the American Secretary of State, the prewar stocks of food in the United Kingdom were normally one and a half million tons. According to the same authority, when the war broke out they stood at three million tons. On December 31 last they stood at 4,200,000 tons. On February 28, according to an answer given in another place by Dr. Summerskill yesterday, they stood at 3,600,000 tons, with the remark that this represented a seasonal fluctuation. The suggestion which I should like to make is this, that we should go back to the figure of three millions at the beginning of the war. It seems reasonable to ask that in the present terrible situation, when millions are
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doomed to death from starvation, our stocks should not stand higher than they stood when war broke out, and it seems reasonable to infer that there can be nothing very far wrong with ourselves and our security if we leave ourselves with double the ordinary pre-war stocks.
I think there may be other ways, too, in which this country may help. For one thing, we can surely abstain from an in-crease in rations. Dr. Summerskill, either yesterday or the day before, suggested the probability of an increase in the meat ration. Such an increase could only be obtained from the food stocks held in reserve or from imports, or from new production. The question I should like to ask is: Should we add to our own provision just now while there are so many threatened with starvation? I am sure that everybody in your Lordships' House desires to do what is the right thing in this contingency and I do want to maintain that what I am concerned with is not the provision of comforts or luxuries or extras. I should be the first to say that Germany should be at the very bottom of the list with regard to comforts, luxuries and extras. But your Lordships will see that what we are up against is starvation, and when it is a case of sheer starvation, whoever the individual may be, and whatever his nationality, whether Indian, Russian, Pole or German, we cannot decently refuse whatever aid we have if the appeal is simply that of a human being to be allowed to live. I would again remind you that the decision which has been made by the Cabinet is the reduction of the bare subsistence ration by one-third at one blow from 1,500 calories to 1,000, and that by the end of April unless action is taken the reduction will be to 700 or less, lower than Belsen ever reached. So I beg your Lordships to consider my plea that action be taken forthwith.
You will observe that the plea is one which I have not the slightest doubt has the whole-hearted support of Field-Marshal Montgomery, the Military Government, the Control Commission, who are the men on the spot who have to do the work in the British zone. My plea is not for any extraordinary action but for action in accordance with our ordinary British custom of fulfilling the pledges which our leaders made in the nation's name in time of war.
6.49 p.m.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I do not intend to follow the right reverend Prelate in the cause in which he is so gallant a crusader, but I should like to say a few words about the interesting speech of the noble Lord, Lord Lindsay. I do not attempt to compete with him in trying to, estimate the time we shall have before the next war may break out. That, I think, would be a discussion between two Scotsmen who, even if they both come from south of the Border, might unduly detain your Lordships. But I agree with him that we must do everything to prevent such an outbreak. With great deference, I think he spoke of the terrible sanctions of the League of Nations.
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER: No, not terrible.
THE EARL OF PERTH: Oh, it was not. That answers that part of my question. May I ask a question about the atomic bomb? Do I understand from what Lord Lindsay said that his idea would be that if a nation considered using the atomic bomb it would know that if it did so the atomic bomb would be used against itself and it would be wiped out? That is very important and I agree with him fully.
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER: My general idea is that nothing will stop it except the knowledge that if anybody uses it it will be used against them and used at once.
THE EARL OF PERTH: There is one point where I do not altogether agree with the noble Lord, and that is the theory that there was not really much democracy in the south-eastern countries of Europe. I visited Rumania and Yugoslavia and attended debates in Parliament. They were making great progress towards democracy, and I do not think the noble Lord can maintain that those countries are not yet sufficiently developed, because the war has put them back so much. There is also a point I should like to mention which what raised I think by the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate. It is that the policy of His Majesty's Government is to have full support for the United Nations and, I think he added, the unity of the world. I quite agree, but I would like to remind him that even under the
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Charter there are different arrangements made for regional agreements and so on, and that you cannot really always treat the world as a whole. Sometimes it is necessary, even in the Charter, to treat it, as I say, regionally. I make that point because it is something I wish to come to later.
I am not going to detain your Lordships by talking about the proceedings at the United Nations Conference, because I am in general agreement with what was said by my noble friend Viscount Samuel. I would only add that, in/my own view, the United Nations Organization has emerged strengthened from a test which was a very grave one, and in which some of us thought it might possibly fail because ii was so severe. That being so, it seems to me that the foundations of the Organization have been well and truly laid, though it may be that some change ought to be made in the structure. There is one point upon which I would like to give a warning and which I do not think has been mentioned by anybody up to now, and that is about the international force. I personally welcome the creation of an international force, and particularly I welcome the idea that it shall be composed of air contingents, because it is a proof of the good-neighbour policy and of international co-operation.
Please do not think that the international force foreseen by the Charter is really going to be very effective for the preservation of peace. Its value must necessarily be greatly diminished owing to the veto. For instance, that force can never be used against any of the five permanent members of the Security. Council, nor indeed against any Power which one of those five wishes to shelter. It can really only be used against a small Power not so sheltered. I cannot believe that a small Power, not so sheltered, is going to resist the unanimous pressure exercised by the five big Powers. The point I wish to bring to the attention of your Lordships is, I think, one of very real importance. Having regard to the veto, the international force cannot, and must not, be looked upon as a substitute for our own defences. There we must remain strong. Any attempt to induce public opinion to rely largely on the international force is frankly a continuation of an error which, I am sorry

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to say, was prevalent at the time of the League, and which impaired not only the League but our own defensive strength.
There are one or two aspects of foreign affairs to which I would like to call your Lordships' special attention. In the debate in another place, and in the speeches made here, great stress has been laid on the necessity for furthering our relations with the Soviet Union. I agree that the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has done his utmost, because he proposes that the alliance with Russia should be prolonged from twenty to fifty years. That is full proof of the desire that our relations with Russia should be as enduring as possible. I think, as far as I can ascertain, we have genuinely tried to carry out our obligations under the Treaty of Alliance, but we have met with little, if any, reciprocity. A treaty of alliance, if only executed by one party, can be of little value, but there it is and for the time being I see really no remedy. It is an admirable idea to have the cards on the table, but the cards of both players must be face upwards, and are both players ready for that? I think it is only really by degrees that the Soviet Union will realize we are most anxious for friendly relations with them, and then, in the words of the Alliance, will work with us in close and friendly co-operation for the security and economic prosperity of Europe.
Meanwhile we cannot allow our foreign policy to stagnate because of lack of collaboration on the Russian side. The Prime Minister of France, in a speech not very long ago, proposed a Franco-British alliance. That seems to me to be of very great significance, because it expressed the views of the three great parties in France which form the Government. But so far as I know there has been no public utterance from His Majesty's Ministers welcoming that proposition, and that must surely be rather discouraging both to the French and to ourselves. Surely we ought to do all that is possible to respond to a gesture of that kind, because I believe an alliance with France which would be open to the smaller Western Powers should be one of the main objects of our foreign policy.
Clearly, we must keep Russia and the United States informed of our intentions,
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but we must not be debarred from going ahead with arrangements which are certainly not directed against the Soviet Union, or contrary to the Charter of the United Nations. I may be told it is difficult to come to an arrangement with France until the question of Germany is settled, but I do not accept the validity of that argument. You can put the question of Germany on one side and go ahead with other questions. There is to be a debate later about the position of Germany, but the matter really is of rather urgent importance. I believe that the future of the Rhineland and of the Ruhr must depend upon the treatment of Germany as a whole. If, as I hope, we shall have a federated Germany, then I think the Rhineland and the Ruhr should be one of the Federated States, it being understood that the industrial output of the Ruhr would be under international control and that that control would also be responsible for the distribution of the products. But supposing that either in the near or distant future Germany was to become a strongly centralized State, then I think you would have to reconsider the whole problem of the two provinces. At any rate, the Ruhr would have to be put under international political control.
So much for that very short digression. I want to make it clear that what I said about the conclusion of a treaty with France equally applies to other countries. We must have full power to make treaties, for instance with Egypt, with Iraq, and, as I have said, we must keep the Soviet Union and the United States fully informed. I want to emphasize the United States, because in the debate in another place it seemed to me that whilst much was said with regard to the necessity of maintaining good relations with Russia, little account was taken of the vital need for the continuing of our war comradeship with America. I was brought up in the school of Sir Edward Grey and Lord Balfour, and the closest friendship with America was the principle which underlay the whole of their foreign policy. If friendship was necessary then it is certainly necessary in the troubled world of to-day. In fact, I think that friendship is essential for the success of the United Nations and of world peace and prosperity.
I cannot but regret the attacks which have been made by some of your Lord-

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ships on the American Loan. To my mind the terms of that loan are very generous. I should like to state the case as it strikes me. Let us look at it like this. A rich roan in the past, and a man who is going to be potentially rich in the future, wants money to tide him over a difficult period whilst he puts his business affairs in order. He goes to a friend, asks the friend if he will lend him money, and the friend replies, "I will." He then adds, "Well, I am not going to ask you for any interest for the next five years, but if your business prospers then I think it is fair, and I think you will agree, that you should pay me a low rate of interest, let us say, 2 per cent. for the rest of the time." But he adds, "If your business does not prosper, and you cannot afford to pay that rate in any given year, then I will let you off. The interest for that particular year will be cancelled." If anybody treats me like that I say that is both friendly and generous. That is how I feel about the loan.
I come to the last point in respect of which I am going to trouble your Lordships, and that is the question of Poland and of the Poles who are outside Poland. You may or you may not remember that at the time of the Yalta agreement some of us gave our approval to the conditions of that agreement on condition that the pledges in respect of Poland were adequately executed. What were they? They were a strong, free, independent Poland, a reorganized Polish Government which would include all democratic leaders both inside and outside Poland; free elections on the basis of universal suffrage, and a secret ballot. We pointed out at the time that the obligations agreed to by His Majesty's Government at Yalta, which obligations have been assumed by the present Government, were very serious. That Conference took place more than a year ago and we are, I think, entitled to know what progress has been made. I will ask several questions. Is Poland to-day completely independent? Are the democratic leaders inside and outside Poland effective members of the Government? Lastly, when are the promised elections likely to take place? Will they be really free and will there be a secret ballot?
I will say just one word with regard to the Poles outside Poland and in particular General Anders' army. I understand these men have been told the con-
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ditions under which they can return to Poland, and I would ask if we can be informed of any other alternative. Information has reached me from a very reliable source that a rumour went round among these troops that if they did not return to Poland they would be forced to take German nationality. Of course, that is utterly untrue. However, as you know, rumours of that kind do spread very quickly and are apt to be believed. The question I wish to put is this: Were those brave and very valiant soldiers, to whom the Foreign Secretary stated we owed so much, given an alternative choice? Were they told of the declaration made by Mr. Churchill, that, if they did not want to return to Poland, they might start a new life either in this country or in one of our great Dominions? If that alternative was not put before them, then I do not think we have treated these soldiers in the way that they deserve.
Finally, there was a passage in the speech the Foreign Secretary made in another place in which he made an appeal that ethnical boundaries should not be allowed to interfere with the flow of raw materials and produce and transport from one side of the frontier to another. Of course, that is just common sense, but I feel common sense in this particular case will not prevail. I venture to remind the Government of what happened in the case of the Province of Upper Silesia. A boundary was drawn up which went through coalmines, through farms, through gardens, even through houses. Those who drew it up said, "If we do that the people on each side of the line are bound to work together because of their economic interests, and ultimately we shall break down that excessive feeling of nationality." That is just the same idea as is in the mind of the Foreign Secretary today. But what happened? National sentiment was too strong. You could not stop the Poles hating the Germans and the Germans hating the Poles, and they refused to collaborate. I believe that national feeling is even stronger to-day and therefore I think the solutions that seem to be in the mind of the Government and which, as I say, are really based on common sense, are not likely to prove adequate. I wish it were otherwise, but in this particular case I do speak with experience and I would be very grateful if the Government would bear that experience in mind.
7.9 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I confess I share the diffidence alleged and quite uncalled for which my noble friend Lord Lindsay expressed in having undertaken to make a speech on foreign affairs in your Lordships' House, where so many of your Lordships have given a lifetime both to the study and practice of this exceedingly difficult art. I feel quite sure your Lordships would feel that diffidence in his case was entirely uncalled for, because we were treated to a speech both weighty and penetrating in a debate which has produced speeches of a very high order. I am a great adherent of the view that the expert should be on tap and not on top, and that the end of the plain man should be kept up as far as possible. It is for that reason that I venture to add a few remarks to the discussion which has taken place on this vital subject.
The crux of the matter, of course, is the question of our relationship with Russia, and that will, I venture to think, continue to be the crux of the matter for a substantial time, because the roots of this business are deep down in history. There can be no doubt, as the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, pointed out, that there has been a very serious deterioration in the relationship between the two countries during the months which have gone past since the end of the war. I had the honour to take part in the General Election, and to supplicate the suffrages of the people of a certain constituency, unsuccessfully—I hope your Lordships will think undeservedly so. During the course of the campaign, however, we talked a good deal about foreign policy. There was great interest in our relationship with Russia and great enthusiasm when I put forward on our side the view that we, in this country, were in a position to form a sort of link, a half-way house, the honest broker, between the rugged individualism of the Americans on one side and the fullblooded Communism of the Russians on the other side, combining, as we are attempting to do, the co-operative team work of British Socialism with the initiative and independence which are the good traits of the individualistic system. That view seemed to me to commend itself very much to the audiences to which I was speaking.
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Unfortunately, during the months that have gone past it has been more and more difficult to maintain that attitude, but it is quite obvious from the speeches of the Foreign Secretary that he still has that objective in mind and I still believe that it is one which we ought to struggle to bring about. As Mr. Macmillan pointed out in his admirable contribution to the debate in another place not very long ago, during this time the Anglo-American-Russian alliance has virtually, if not formally, fallen into abeyance. It is a very frank but, I am sure your Lordships will agree, a very true analysis of the situation. In the same debate Mr. Philips Price, who is certainly a sympathetic observer of the Russian scene, described the Russian attitude as difficult, and gave it as his view that it was the task of statesmanship to discover what was the cause of that difficult attitude It was very evident in the speeches of some of your Lordships this afternoon that you also regard that as a very accurate diagnosis of the situation: that we have to try and discover what are the causes of this difficult attitude.
I am not at all sure that if one were making a speech in Russia one might not be tempted to say that in some respects the attitude of Britain had been somewhat difficult. I do not think the difficulties have all been on one side, and I was interested to notice that Mr. Byrnes, the Secretary of State, in a recent speech which attracted a good deal of attention, took that view also. There has been a certain lack of the usual good humour which characterizes our own attitude on these affairs. Particularly, I think, the attitude of the Press, both on this side of the Atlantic and on the other, has often been rather deplorable in this matter. There has been a magnification of almost all the petty differences that have arisen.
The outburst in connexion with the atomic bomb business in Canada has been especially deplorable. Surely it is quite ridiculous. It is the duty of any country which knows that another country has got a weapon of outstanding power which it has not got itself, to try and find out what it is. Let us put ourselves in the position of the Russians in regard to this matter, and imagine that this weapon was in the hands of the Russians and that we had not got it. Surely the whole of our intelligence system would be turned on the job of trying

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to find out the secret, and the Russians would realize that that was so. Therefore it is quite silly—worse than silly, criminal—to make such a fuss and palaver about a matter of that kind. It is all in the game, and I am quite sure that my noble friend Lord Lindsay is right when he says that one of the really fundamental reasons for this distrust of which we are trying to find the cause is this fact of the atomic bomb. We should feel exactly the same if the other people had it and we had not got it ourselves. There can be no doubt about that.
Therefore you have this feeling of suspicion and difficulty which makes it almost impossible to get that confidence which, in a fine passage in his speech which has been referred to this afternoon already, the Foreign Secretary said we needed in order that we may grow together with the Russians. We have to try and go rather more deeply into this problem of Russian feeling than we have done this afternoon. I am quite sure that the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, is right, and his words were echoed by Lord Altrincham, when he said that the Russians are exceedingly sensitive in regard to the question of invasion. I do not think that point can be sufficiently emphasized. They are invasion sensitive. It is not only a question of going back to the time of Napoleon. From the very dawn of Russian history it has been a question of invasion. Russia has perhaps been the most invaded country in the world.
Your Lordships are aware that the first Russian State that was founded, that at Kiev, made great contributions to the civilizations existing at the time, but it was submerged and destroyed by the Tartar hordes from Central Asia. For hundreds of years the Russians paid tribute, and as soon as they had got their heads above water they were invaded by the Poles from the other side. Their capital city, Moscow, was in the hands of the Poles for many years. No sooner had they driven out the Poles than the Swedes came in under the famous warrior King, Charles XII, and ravaged Russia from the Baltic to the Black Sea. We have heard about what happened during the last no years. It cannot be wondered at that the Russians are exceedingly sensitive in this regard. Nor do I think that enough attention can be given to the fact that we in this country played such a prominent
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part in spurring the Polish invasion of Russia just after the end of the first World War. That has been referred to already this afternoon, but I am quite sure it is one of the things which rankle in the minds of the Russians. That was at a time when the success of their revolution was still in doubt. There can, I think, be no doubt that the Poles, who were very successful in the early stages of that war and who actually planted their standards in Kiev, were stimulated in that invasion of the Ukraine by ourselves and, more particularly, by the French.
THE EARL OF PERTH: Has the noble Lord any proof that it was stimulated from this country?
LORD CHORLEY: If the noble Earl will look at the Chatham House history of the Peace Conference he will find a statement to that effect. That is a sufficiently impartial source. Towards the end of that time, active intervention in that affair was only prevented by the concerted and spontaneous action of the British trade union movement, which refused to handle munitions and supplies which had been collected on the docks, to go to Poland for that war.
Those are things which are very much in the minds of the Russians. The Russians are sensitive people, historically minded people. Perhaps your Lordships will forgive a further historical disquisition, because I think this business goes very deep down into history. The invasions of Russia in the early days, which swept over their early kingdoms, came from Asia. From the dawn of world civilization right down to the time when the Russians tackled—and successfully tackled—this problem, the great threat to civilization always came from Central Asia. It was a sort of human volcano of wild and savage tribes who poured out, like the burning lava, in all directions. They overwhelmed civilizations in China; time after time civilizations in India were wiped out by these invaders. We know about Attila; we know how the fair cities which the Greeks had established in Asia Minor were destroyed by Turks coming from the same place. That constant menace to civilization was dealt with, and successfully dealt with, by the Russians, who eventually succeeded in invading Siberia and reducing it to become part of the Russian Empire. That was a contribution of inestimable value to

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European civilization and to the civilization of the world.
The Russians made themselves safe on that side by conquering that area and by reducing it to their dominion, thus preventing that thing from happening in the future. But they had no sooner succeeded in doing that on one side than they were attacked by the Poles, the Swedes and the French from the other side. Their reaction to that was a very similar sort of reaction; it was to reduce Poland—in effect, to absorb Poland. During the period between 1770 to the time of Pilsudski they were in no danger from Poland and there was no war. As soon as the Poles were free and had re-established the State of Poland it was a significant thing to the Russians that, stimulated from the west, they were again in Kiev. I have no doubt at all that the Russians as from that time were determined that in some way or another they would see to it that Poland was reduced to a condition in which that could not happen again. I am quite sure that the Russian policy in Eastern Europe, as applied not only to Poland but to the Baltic States, to Rumania and other countries has been founded on that sort of outlook. They want to make themselves secure.
Now that the atom bomb has appeared on the scene, and the range of distance in order to be secure has to be so much wider, obviously they are trying to push themselves out to get a wider glacis between themselves and countries which they are not saying are going to attack them but which they feel might attack them. They are so sensitive that they feel they must take 100 per cent. precautions. There is another important element in this. I think we have a right to a certain confidence in regard to the atom bomb. After all, I suppose nothing made so great an impression during the 1914–18 war as the use of gas. It was condemned; it was felt that it was one of the great stains—perhaps the greatest stain—on military operations during that war. Your Lordships know that, although we all feared it and made tremendous preparations against it, it was not in fact used during the last war, and it was not used because everybody feared it so much. Personally I derive a certain optimism from that fact in regard to the atom bomb. I entirely accept the view of Lord Lindsay that the best thing to
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do is to ensure that it will not be used except in the case of some other nation making use of it, and in that case it will be used by the United Nations military organization in order completely to destroy the particular nation which uses it.
I think we have also to take another matter into account. During the years immediately before the last war there is no question at all that there was some suspicion on the part of the Russians as to what they called Fascist sympathies in this country. My own view of the matter is that the rapprochement between Hitler and Stalin which took place in August, 1939, and which directly led up to the war was very largely due to the fact that the Russians had not got sufficient confidence in us. They thought there were elements in this country which were Fascistly inclined, and I do not think they have even now entirely disabused themselves of that feeling, because it is known that—possibly for quite good reasons of a sort—we still are in Italy, in Austria and in Germany making use of prominent Fascists and Nazis—collaborators. We have not in fact got rid of them, and it is now nearly a year since the end of the war. There was an article in The Times the other day about the suspicions of the Yugoslavs, in which the correspondent said that Allied officers admitted that prominent Fascists were still being employed.
In the debate the other day the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, admitted that although efforts were still being made at Klagenfurt to get rid of these people, they were still there. It is known that they are still tremendously used in Germany. A reliable reporter with whom I was speaking the other day said there was some feeling, not only among the Social Democrats but among the Conservative German administrators, the burgomasters of great cities, at the fact that they are not allowed by the British Government control to get rid of these people. He told me about the burgomaster of one of the largest cities of Germany who put up to the local Commandant a scheme for dealing with this situation of Nazis being in these key positions and who had that scheme turned down. The burgomaster then applied to headquarters and at the end of a month no answer was forthcoming. Of course, the Russians look on and see these things

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happening. There are, no doubt, good administrative reasons for it, but those are not reasons which appeal to the Russians, who feel strongly and who are sensitive about things of this sort. I do suggest that if we want to get on good terms with the Russians one of the best ways of doing it is to see that there is a real purge of these Nazi and Fascist elements throughout the administrations of Germany, Austria and Italy.
There are many other elements in this situation which give rise, and naturally give rise, to intense suspicion on the part of the Russians that we are not really playing the game in regard to this matter. And as the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, has pointed out, there is this Press censorship which prevents the other side of the picture being presented to the people of Russia. The result: is that they have the whole of what we may call, perhaps, the black picture in their minds all the time. In those circumstances, suspicion, dislike and even hatred tend to grow up. As I say, in a way it is a black picture. We have got to try to get our own case over effectively. We have got to be quite frank about it. I agree with everything that has been said in this debate about the importance of frankness. As Senator Connolly, in the United States, pointed out the other day, frankness does not mean rudeness. By all means let us be frank, but let us stop short of some of the pettiness and even rudeness which has appeared in the statements, not of responsible statesmen, but of many journalists and less responsible people in this country. Let us be frank when we have a good case, a moral case, whether for criticism simply of Russia or against her for breaking a Treaty. Let us make our case in moderate terms, but let us make it firmly.
In the years between the two wars, the Russian Government had a very good reputation indeed for keeping their treaties. We have had very little complaint to make on that score in the past, and that enables us all the better to go to them in a frank and friendly way when such a business as that of Northern Persia arises. That, I think, is the line which we should adopt. After all, the war has not been over very long, and the international position after a war is always particularly difficult. I close on this note. After all, we have been
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through a very terrifying time, one of the most terrifying times that any civilized people has ever had to go through. It has been a dark, stormy, terrible night, and when you look out after such a night as that into the dawn, there are almost invariably black clouds scudding across the sky. There may be, also, an angry gleam of red in the East, but, nevertheless, we know that the sun will rise hot and serene in an hour or two's time, the clouds will gradually disperse, and the full light of the day will come with its warmth and gladness heralding a period of peace, happiness and content.
7.35 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I want to ask His Majesty's Government if in their reply they will give me some further information, if it is in their power to do so, as to the causes of and the aims in relation to the present situation in Spain. I hope that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack will not merely answer: "Franco has not been a very good friend to us and he more or less deserves what is coming to him," because though possibly with Lord Chorley's help, I might be able to make out a case for him, that is not my purpose. I feel that if there are no injuries small enough to be overlooked, then the prospect for the United Nations Organization is not a very good one. And it seems to me that His Majesty's Government are in a rather illogical position.
I put to your Lordships this supposition. Assume that in this country, for example, there had been some great State trial which had resulted in an execution, and—though I should never have had the temerity to do it myself—certain obstinate and ignorant country men of mine had presumed to question that judgment. Supposing an outside Power had then come along and said: "Now we are going to take action against you: this is a miscarriage of justice." Would not everyone of the dissentients have ranged up behind the Government to defend it? I cannot but think that the kind of interference which we are making in Spanish affairs now may have the effect of making all the more stable elements rally round Franco. After all, the Spanish have just as keen a sense of nationality as we have. Your Lordships will remember that probably the

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greatest Spaniard of the nineteenth century, General Prim, the man of Reus, was disgraced and finally killed merely because he thought of diminishing the integrity of Spanish nationality, when his advice if taken would probably have avoided the Spanish-American war. Moreover, I think it was one of the grounds of the Foreign Secretary's indignation with our Russian Allies that they presumed to interfere in a purely domestic matter between His Majesty's Government and the Greek Government. I do not think, therefore, that we are in a very logical position with regard to that. My final reason for this question is one, which, perhaps, is not quite so logical. But it is one on which I lay very great stress, and I am certain that His Majesty's Government do also. But I would like to feel that they put the same emphasis upon it that I do.
If you look at the history of Spain for the past 150 years, you will see that they have had very few intervals indeed of peace. Even the great triumph of the Congress of Vienna in giving the whole of Europe 35 years of profound peace was not shared by Spain. During all that period they had either public or domestic wars from time to time. The only intervals of peace were in the short and idyllic reign of Alfonso XII and in the latter part of the reign of Alfonso XIII. These were the only two periods of real peace that Spain has enjoyed. The Duke of Wellington, after eighty years of unexampled experience, used to say that, in his view, the greatest crime that a man or a nation could commit was to do anything to foment civil disaffection in a neighbouring country. After sixty years of very undistinguished life, I say exactly the same thing. I think that it is probably the greatest crime that any man or any nation can commit. Having regard to the special position in Spain, the ferocity that is aroused, the murder, the rape and the looting that inevitably take place when there are any civil disturbances in that country, I feel that if the action of His Majesty's Government were, in any way, to produce any unrest in Spain unnecessarily, it would be a stain on every one of us. It would cause me, personally, very great pain, and I am sure that in the end there is a Nemesis for these things.
7.40 p.m.
LORD RENNELL: My Lords, it falls to me to be the last speaker in this debate which puts me in the very invidious position of finding something to say which has not been already said. I am sorry the noble Lord, Lord Lindsay, is not here because I should have liked to have said to him that I held his speech in great esteem but him not so very much because he said so much of what I wanted to say myself. I am entitled to say that, since I had sat at his feet, as I have told your Lordships before, before the last war when he was tutor at the College which he now graces. The speech which he made is, up to a certain point, one with which I find myself in profound agreement because I think to some extent it synthesises so much of what has been said before.
The noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, analyzed the curious position in which the Russians are, vis-à-vis the rest of the world at the present moment. In particular he said what must be clearly obvious to everyone, that the Russians did not want war. They cannot have war. If we are in difficulties about our postwar reconstruction it requires very little imagination to think what state the Russians themselves must be in. They have had most of European Russia occupied and they had an economic community which was completely disrupted. It is inconceivable that they should entertain, or have, aggressive designs. Yet we are faced with this curious phenomenon which has been going on for the last month. The explanation, I think, is perhaps not so far and remote. It lies in what Lord Lindsay said and because it lies in that I feel that many of the discussions on foreign affairs and many of the discussions on the United Nations Organization, and, indeed, of the discussions of the United Nations Organization itself, are to some extent unreal. I do not wish to diminish or disparage in any way the outcome of the discussions which took place here in London not far from here, but I would add very modestly to what the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, said about what the Foreign Secretary did. I was going to say—perhaps I should be out of order in saying it—what "our" Foreign Secretary said, not because he is the Foreign Secretary of His Majesty's Government, but because he is the Foreign Secretary who has perhaps enjoyed more support from all Parties in this country

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than any before him. So that it is a question of "our" in every sense of the word.
But the explanation of what happened is, I think, to be found in what Lord Lindsay said. We are living, or we are supposed to be living, in a period of scientific enlightenment; but to use the phrase which some of your Lordships may have heard over the wireless lately, we may be living in an age of scientific enlightenment: but we are living under the shadow of the gleaming wings of science. What has made so many of these discussions unreal is that they have turned on what, compared with the problems of scientific discoveries, are small things. They are small things, I am sure, in the Russian eyes. If a key were wanted to that, it lies in a speech little reported perhaps in this country, which was made, I think at the end of January, by Marshal Stalin on the reconstruction of Russia, when he laid what might have appeared to be quite undue emphasis on the necessity for Russia to develop scientific research, in which the future lay. That can only have meant one thing: it can only have meant that "others have something which we have not got and which we intend to get."
I agree with those speakers who preceded me in saying that that attitude is reasonable. It would be our own attitude. It is our own attitude, I think, in all scientific matters, but it brings to the frond the problem of how to deal with this appalling discovery, which we may regret but which has happened and which is a matter of fact. No human ingenuity is going to segregate what has happened and isolate what has happened and say that it must not be used. What has been discovered is going to be used, and the scientists themselves—and so far I must agree with Lord Lindsay, but only so far—will make the discoveries. If noble Lords will return to what is the history of this discovery, they will, subject to correction, know that the elements of what made the atomic bomb were all elements which had been published to the world by the great physicists of all nations. There was nothing which had been concealed. I had the advantage this year of meeting one of the greatest physicists alive to-day. I cannot elaborate the details but nothing that
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he had done in the laboratory was not known to the world when he did it.
It is out of that common fund of knowledge that this thing was developed. It is inconceivable that that which was known in laboratories and published to the world and adapted to this use should not become known within a very small space of time to everybody. It is not a question of knowing what is done but of how it is done, and the period of time within which it will be open for everybody to know how it was done must be measured—I hope in years, but, if it is to be misused, it may be in months. The noble Lord, Lord Lindsay, spoke of a period of two, three or perhaps five years during Which this knowledge which is ours will remain ours. I am advised that five years is an excessive period; three years is perhaps an excessive period and two years is likely. That brings us into a state of immediacy in this problem where certain principles have been accepted, but where there has been delay in action. It has, in principle, been decided that that which is known will be placed in trust against misuse in international hands. That principle having been accepted, little action has as yet been taken, and the nature al the discussions that took place at U.N.O. did not touch on that issue.
The next stage before us is an experimental one, in which I am sure all your Lordships will be very glad to have seen the attitude of Mr. Byrnes about sharing the results of those experiments. That again is not enough, and we are faced with the problem of how to exercise that control. Lord Lindsay found one solution, which I think perhaps will not commend itself to your Lordships, and which does not entirely commend itself to me. I do not think it is possible, in the present state of Governments and the people of the world, to set up at this stage a I scientific body in whose hands the life and death of nations can be handled without expecting those nations to have a say in it.
The problem is clearly too difficult at this stage in the debate, or perhaps in any debate, to consider in detail, because curiously enough it is one which perhaps affects us on the moral or higher issue less than it does the United States and Russia. I do not know whether it

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is possible for us to play the part of an honest broker between them or not. I am quite sure that there are two, and probably only two, places in the world where this weapon can be developed, and that is, on the one hand, the North-American Continent, and on the other Russia. I doubt whether we will develop it ourselves, if only on account of the cost. I do not mean that in terms of money because money, in the terms of survival, is not a relevant factor. The cost in this context means the diversion of man-power and labour. The problem really resolves itself into ascertaining on the one hand what the United States of America will do and what the Russians wish to do. Between those two we have a very difficult part to play.
In comparison with the other problems which have been discussed and referred to this evening, the problems of Azerbaijan and Greece, and whether the French or British troops stay in the Levant or not, fade into complete insignificance. I must, therefore, without disparaging what U.N.O. did, express a certain amount of disappointment. It may be that it would not have been right to have put a burden of that magnitude on that Organization at this stage. It would be quite beyond my competence to have an opinion about that, but I am quite sure that a diversity of opinion, and indeed possibly the tenor of the discussions which took place, were unconsciously overshadowed by this problem which was much greater than any other that came up.
I do not wish to seem to diminish in any way what our Foreign Secretary and those who were with him did, but I believe your Lordships will agree in feeling that when those problems are viewed in the perspective of this thing they are matters which will be forgotten in a few months and perhaps in a few weeks. I ask that the problem should be treated with a sense of urgency and immediacy, because I do not believe it is a question of years. It may be a question of a year or so, or it may be a question of months before the Russians in their present state of mind obtain the application of something which we applied, and which they think they are entitled to have. If they obtain that solution within the few months that are left in antithesis of our position to the
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others I think the problem is almost irremediable. It is irremediable, not in terms even of a War between nations, but irremediable in terms of the survival of whole nations and perhaps even more than that. With all the strength I have, thinking in terms of foreign policy, may I urge your Lordships to think of those things in terms of this shadow under the gleaming wings of science under which we are living, and direct your attention to that rather than to the immediate and smaller problems of international affairs which are here to-day and very prevalent and, I think, gone to-morrow?
7.58 p.m.
LORD DE L'ISLE AND DUDLEY: My Lords, the hour is late, and it would be an impertinence for me to detain your Lordships' House for more than a very few minutes, but there are one or two points to which I would like to draw your Lordships' attention. Some of you may recall a broadcast speech made by Mr. Churchill in the years between the wars, somewhere about 1936 or 1937, when he was endeavouring to bring to the attention of the nation at large the dangers which he rightly conceived faced us from Germany. He said:
"It may seem to you of small importance whether we are to remain a first-class power or become a second-class power. But I assure you that if we do not remain a first-class power it will be difficult for more than half the population of this island to survive."
May I underline that by saying that the real problem that will arise is which half will survive? I am certain that we can, and shall, remain a great Power, but we are not like our great neighbours, the United States of America, or Russia, in that we comprise a great land massed with great economic resources in a ringed fence, as it were. Our status is a much more delicate and complicated affair. I am certain we shall only remain a great Power if we exercise the wisdom, which our forefathers handed down to us, to maintain and build up our position in the world. For, after all, numerically, in relation to other Powers throughout history, we have been small. But it is the quality of our country which has made its name great. It is a truism (I think the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, did enunciate the thesis) that you cannot separate foreign policy and defence. So I would first of all beg His Majesty's

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Government to see that our defences are built up not next year, or the year after, but now.
A White Paper on Defence has just been issued. It would not be proper for me to enter in detail into the realm of defence. But I could not help feeling rather disturbed when I read the White Paper and indeed the Prime Minister's speech. It seemed to me that he regarded that as a stop-gap. We cannot maintain our place or our prestige or importance in the world on stop-gap forces. Demobilization is proceeding. We had a great fighting machine during the war, but it is of the most vital importance that we should build up a new machine adapted to our present needs.
During the course of this debate, naturally and inevitably, considerable attention has been focussed on Anglo-Russian relations. A great many noble Lords have attempted in their various ways to analyse the state of mind of the Russian nation and of its rulers. I myself am by no means sure that, however well-intentioned these noble Lords were, their remarks would really find favour among the rulers of Russia. I do not think myself that they like to be regarded as an able but slightly recalcitrant and rather a problem child. I personally think that they believe, and very rightly, that they have full adult status and are capable of managing their own affairs, are capable of perfectly rational thought, and are not tormented by inhibitions. I personally do not intend to follow the noble Lords in that line because personally I do not think it is a profitable line of approach. It seems to me that we must look to events and to actions rather than to motives.
If I were a Russian ruler, I must confess I should be tempted to the line of action which is being taken very much by the policy of the other Powers, and, in particular, of this country itself. I feel, much as I hope for and much as I desire good Anglo-Russian relations, if we make that an end in itself rather than a means to an end, and if we pursue it with excessive enthusiasm, we shall lose it. Let us remember that the end of our policy must be directed, as it was when we entered the war in 1939, to maintain liberty and justice even at great cost to ourselves. We shall not found, I am cer-
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tain reliable organizations for the government and regulation of the world unless we recognize the rule of law. I cannot see how confidence can be founded on any other basis, and, so long as treaties are not respected, I cannot see how we can build on that foundation. It is building on a quicksand.
I know I shall be saying something controversial here, but I think it ought to be said, so I will say it. The Foreign Secretary, whose conduct in these negotiations I admire greatly, when he went to Moscow, offered to extend our treaty with the Russians from twenty to fifty years. In Article (5) it is specifically laid down that the contracting parties will eschew all territorial aggrandisement or interference in the power of independent States. To put it at its mildest, it is questionable whether Article (5) has been observed. If it has not been observed, is it: really wise to extend a treaty from twenty to fifty years when we are not certain that the terms are being observed now? The hour is late, and you will be anxious to hear the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor. I ask him when he replies to give his attention to these two points: first of all, that we should be adequately provided with armed forces now; secondly, whether in fact it is wise to build on treaties when you are not certain that observance has been in accordance either with the spirit or the letter.
8.8 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD JOWITT): My Lords, at this late hour you need have no fear that I am going to detain you for any length of time, nor indeed am I going to make a set speech. I think we must all be grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, for raising this topic to-day, and we must all agree that the debate to-day has maintained the very high level which such debates in your Lordships' House have frequently achieved. My noble friend Viscount Stansgate spoke after the first few speeches and dealt with the matters which they covered. I propose hi the few remarks I make, therefore, to deal more specifically with direct questions which was asked in the course of the subsequent speeches. It is idle to imagine that there is not with all of us a sense of anxiety, a sense, perhaps, even of foreboding, but I must say,

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for myself, that I think the noble Lord, Lord Rennell, went rather too far when he said that unless something was done shortly things looked like becoming irremediable. I do not myself take that view at all.
I believe that this much must be plain to all the nations of the world, that the consequences of another war will be so terrible, every nation will lose so much more than it can gain, that there is no nation which is willingly going to promote another war, at any rate so long as the memory of the last war is in the minds of the Governments of nations. Therefore, I was particularly interested in Lord Lindsay's speech. I must say I thought it was a very remarkable contribution to our deliberations. He put forward, as I understood him, a perfectly concrete suggestion and the suggestion was this. Under no circumstances whatever should any nation be allowed to use the atomic bomb, and if any nation did use the atomic bomb, then all the other nations of the world would retort in like kind. That is a very practical suggestion, and I would remind him, and I would remind also the noble Lord, Lord Rennell, who also spoke with regard to this matter, that the General Assembly of the United Nations, which has really only just started, has not lost any time on this subject. At their recent meeting on January 24 they unanimously approved a resolution to set up a Commission to deal with the problems raised by the discovery of atomic energy and other related measures. The suggestion that has been made will obviously find its way to them, and I think what we should do at the present time is to hold our hands and wait until we receive the first report of that Commission. Then we will certainly discuss the matter again and see if there is anything further we can do.
Then the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chichester spoke about rather a different matter, and I want to reply to what he said. It is really quite unnecessary to point out to your Lordships' House the consequences of the cut in rations in Germany that has had to be made. I agree with the right reverend Prelate that it is a tragedy that it has had to be made. The fact that Germany is undernourished is likely to lead to
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disease, rioting, trouble, disorder and unhappiness. That is self-evident. We do not want convincing of the fact that we should do what we can to keep the Germans—even the Germans, our late enemies—without privation. The dictates of the religion which he and I hold in common make it essential to do so, and common sense also makes it necessary, for a disease black spot in the centre of Europe, which used to produce all sorts of commodities for all parts of the world, is obviously a danger. That is all agreed. But the right reverend Prelate must face the fact that the problem is that there is not the food. It is no good blinking the fact. He said that the cut had been suddenly imposed, and he asked, would our soldiers stand for famine conditions? My Lords, our soldiers must stand for famine conditions if there is not the food. That is the problem.
As to the suddenness of the cut, it was not so sudden as all that. It had been anticipated, and on November it the British Commander-in-Chief issued a statement to Press representatives which was very widely reported in the Press at the time, in which he stressed the fact that the food situation was critical and pointed out that he could not promise whether it would be possible to maintain the already somewhat scanty rations. There followed on that, as your Lordships know, the failure of the monsoon in India, the difficulty in South Africa, and droughts and floods all over the world. The situation is such as I have told the right reverend Prelate: there is not the food which we should most certainly provide for the Germans if we could.
And let this be said for our people. We have provided, out of our very slender dollar resources, very large sums of money to-day in order that the Germans might be fed. If the food were there we would pledge ourselves even further, but it is not. He gave certain figures. He stated that our food reserves at the end of December were 4,000,000 tons, and at the end of February 3,600,000. Those figures include oils and fats which are used for industrial purpose. He compared those figures with what he said was the pre-war average of 1,500,000 tons. I am unable to check that figure. I do not dispute it, but the right reverend Prelate will realize that the stock we carried in those days, when

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you could fill up your stocks without any difficulty, when there was plenty of wheat all over the world, when what you were carrying was simply a reasonable balance in hand which you could replenish as you required, has no relevance whatever to the present situation.
The problem for the Minister of Food to-day is this. He is the trustee for the people of this country, and he has to be sure that the people of this country are not themselves going to be faced with famine conditions. He has no right to gamble, for whatever high motive, with the food of the people of this country. But, subject to that, we must do all we can for all nations—Germany, India and all nations. That is quite obvious. And, my Lords, that we have done.
Now the right reverend Prelate raised some other questions. He asked about the system of government in Germany. We are very anxious to re-establish self-government in Germany and we are doing all we can to bring it about. Only recently the British authorities in Germany have appointed a zonal advisory council composed of German representatives of various political Parties, and we are doing what we can to encourage the Germans to interest themselves in local self-government. We look forward to the time when we shall be able to entrust these matters to the Germans themselves. So long always as the security of the world is not going to be impinged upon, we desire it. It is a little hard when by one noble Lord we are accused of not trusting the Germans, and by another noble Lord of trusting the Germans with Nazi tendencies. Of course, if you trust Germans you must run the risk of error, and you must weed out those with Nazi tendencies as soon as you can. It is evident that if you trust Germans you must trust the Germans you believe to be right, and weed them out if you find them to be wrong.
Therefore I say that as far as my heart goes it is with that of the right reverend Prelate. I do not view with equanimity or calm the prospect of starvation anywhere in the world. It is a terrible prospect. Unfortunately we cannot create food and we cannot give the Germans or anybody else more than there is. All we can see is that it is fairly shared.
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Then I come to the speech of the noble Earl, Lord Perth. He asked me some specific questions. He made, if I may say so, what I think was a very useful reminder to all of us, namely, that an international force, for the reasons he gave, dependent upon the veto, would not be any substitute for forces of our own. Indeed, it is probable that owing to the veto an international force would only be able to be used in cases where it really would be unnecessary to use it. That is the trouble. Therefore I assent to what he said, and I assent also to what the noble Lord, Lord de L'Isle, said. It is quite certain that we must not let our defences go. This is neither the time nor the occasion to debate whether the figure in the White Paper which has been issued recently is too high a figure or too low a figure or rightly divided, but, my Lords, it is a very high figure. Let us not forget that, with the shortage of manpower from which we are suffering, we want all the men we can have for civil production, production on the land and everything else. Therefore we have to balance these two considerations very carefully. Let me assure you that we have no intention whatever of thinking that in a world like this we can afford to do away with all our forces and rely on the suggestion of an international force.
Then the noble Lord asked me a specific question. I am sorry if I am jumping about from one matter to another, but it is, I am afraid, inevitable. He asked me a question about M. Gouin's speech. I should like to say something about that. I have said before in this House and I have always believed, that friendship between this country and France is both natural and the most essential thing for Europe.
Our ancient civilizations being so different yet so much alike, the fact that they are close to us, the fact that a great many of us speak, after a fashion at any rate, their language and that they, after a like fashion, speak ours—all those things make it possible, probable and, I hope, inevitable that we shall be very good friends with France. It is a fact that M. Gouin made a most interesting suggestion on this and I am glad the question has been raised. On the 29th January last he suggested that the French Government should try to bring about the conclusion of a tripartite alliance between

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Great Britain, France and Russia. His Majesty's Government welcome that statement because they also hope that, just as Anglo-Soviet relations and Franco-Soviet relations are governed by treaties of alliance, relations between this country and France may also formally be defined by some treaty of alliance.
But having said that, I venture to think that the fact that we have not a formal treaty at the present time does not mean that we are not, both of us, determined to work with one another to prevent a recurrence of the things that have happened within the last twenty-five years. The closeness of our relations with France is in fact illustrated by the very fact that the conclusion of a formal treaty of alliance would not make any practical difference to them. It may be asked why, if that is so, we have not hitherto answered the French proposal. The fact is that since the French proposal was made we have been so busy dealing with the very urgent affairs of the United Nations Organization and so on that we have not taken this matter up, but I would say that in principle, the conclusion of an alliance of this sort would make, I think, no difference. But now we have dealt with the various matters connected with the United Nations Organization we shall certainly take it up. We desire, as a fundamental matter, to have the closest possible friendship and relations with France.
I was asked two questions about Poland. The first was about the Yalta Agreement. Let us remember what the Agreement was. It was that the Polish Provisional Government of National Unity should hold free and unfettered elections as soon as possible, on the basis of universal suffrage and secret ballot, in which all democratic and anti-Nazi parties should have the right to take part and put forward their candidates. It was on that and on the reconstitution of the Lublin Government that we recognized the Polish Government. Mr. Bevin was told at Potsdam that it was hoped the elections would be held in the spring of this year. Further than that I cannot go. I hope the elections will be held in the spring of this year and I hope they will be free and unfettered elections. That is the clear pledge that we had but I can-
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not tell your Lordships more than that. I do not know when the elections are going to be held or whether they will be in accordance with the obligations which the Poles are clearly under.
I was asked a question about General Anders and his troops. The statement which has been put to them and which was agreed by our Government and the Polish Government will, I hope and think, be published in due course. It did not suggest alternative courses but it did put forward to the Poles in the clearest possible way the desirability and the advantages of going back to Poland. I believe that a great majority of the men, so long as they are going to be given a fair deal and personal security, will be willing to go back to their own country. If they are not, then will be the time for us to consider alternative methods of dealing with them, but at the present moment the statement is a frank statement as to the way in which they can go back and what can be done for them when they get back. If they go back to Poland and if they are received fairly I am sure all your Lordships will agree that that is much the most satisfactory solution of what has been a terribly difficult problem.
I was asked a question by Lord Saltoun about Franco's Spain. I cannot pretend that I cannot feel in my bones a sense of horror at what has been going on there recently. I cannot pretend to be absolutely neutral or indifferent. I am not. I think some of these recent trials are perfectly terrible but, having said that, His Majesty's Government, who have expressed their detestation of this régime, do not desire to become embroiled in Spanish affairs and do not desire to see another war. They realize, as does everybody who has studied the history of Spain—and, may I add, who has seen Goya's drawings—what brutality and horrors civil war in Spain has caused in the past. Therefore by precept and example, by saying what we feel about that Government, we shall do what we can to enable Spaniards to emerge into a condition of freedom where they can elect freely whatever leaders they like, and we shall long that the nightmare which prevails over Spain at the present time comes to an end at the earliest possible moment. Those are, I think, the main points which your Lordships put to me in the course of the

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debate. I need hardly tell your Lordships that all the suggestions that have been made will be very carefully considered by His Majesty's Government. I am grateful to your Lordships for having given us so much help and encouragement and for having contributed in such a constructive fashion.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I am sure that the House will desire me to express the thanks of all your Lordships to the members of the Government who have participated in the debate to-day for their contributions, and for the full and frank replies which they have given to the numerous questions addressed to them. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion which is before the House.
Motion for Papers, by leave, with drawn.

MINISTRY OF WAR TRANSPORT (DISSOLUTION) ORDER, 1946.
  DEPARTMENT OF OVERSEAS TRADE (DISSOLUTION) ORDER, 1946.
    MINISTRY OF AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION (DISSOLUTION) ORDER, 1946.
    Draft Orders made under the Ministers of the Crown (Transfer of Functions) Act, 1946, laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for Affirmative Resolution, and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (MORTLAKE CREMATORIUM BOARD) BILL.
Reported without amendment and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House.
House adjourned at half-past eight o'clock.