Sitting of 16 July 1946

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

BREAD RATIONING (PETITIONS)
Mr. Norman Bower: I beg to ask leave to present to the House a Petition, signed by 300,000 people in all parts of the country, which states that the petitioners are already undernourished—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]
"Wherefore they humbly request that bread rationing and further cuts in foodstuffs be not proceeded with and that a public inquiry into the country's food situation be instituted."
It concludes:
" Your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray."
Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: May I take it that none of the petitioners claims to have been a prisoner at Belsen concentration camp?
Petition to lie upon the Table.
Sir Waldron Smithers: I beg to present a humble Petition of the undersigned residents in the Parish of Chelsfield and its vicinity, in the County of Kent, which
"sheweth that they view with alarm the announced intention of His Majesty's Government to ration the supplies of bread to domestic and other consumers thereby causing a hardship to the nation's housewives which they have never had to suffer during the most evil days of the war. Wherefore, your petitioners pray that the decision of His Majesty's Government be altered in conformity with the wish of the people and no such burden be added to the hardships already borne by the people of this land. And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray."
Mr. Gallacher: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to ask whether it is within the Rules of Order to move that a Petition be not accepted, in view of the fact that this is sheer Tory propaganda?
Mr. Speaker: It is within the Rules of this House that any hon. Member can present a Petition on any subject.
Petition to lie upon the Table.

PRIVATE BUSINESS
  RHODES TRUST BILL [Lords]
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING

    Outdoor Advertising (Control)
    Sir Ian Fraserasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning if he will now ask Parliament for power to limit advertising, by the use of hoardings in rural areas.
    Mr. Asterley Jonesasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning whether he is now able to announce a decision regarding the control of outdoor advertisements.
    Mr. Dumpletonasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning if he can now indicate when it will be possible to introduce legislation to strengthen the control over outdoor advertisements, particularly in rural areas.
    Mr. Derek Walker-Smithasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning whether, pending legislation, any action is being taken to restrict or discourage the erection of hoardings that detract from rural amenities.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Town and Country Planning (Mr. Fred Marshall): My right hon. Friend hopes to introduce legislation to control outdoor advertising as soon as practicable; but I cannot forecast when Parliamentary time will permit him to do so. Meanwhile, I have learned with satisfaction that a voluntary agreement has been reached within important sections of the industry not to establish additional signs in the countryside.
    Sir I. Fraser: Will the hon. Gentleman, while awaiting this legislation, use whatever powers he at present has to extend this voluntary agreement?
    Mr. Marshall: Yes, we are doing that. It is very desirable that local authorities should take advantage of the power they already possess to control advertising.
    Mr. Thomas Brown: Is my hon. Friend aware that, in a previous Government, a promise was made that legislation would be brought forward to put an end to this ugly form of advertising which is despoiling the countryside?
    Mr. Marshall: I can only say that, whatever a previous Government promised, we are determined to keep control over advertising.
    Mr. E. P. Smith: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the proposed legislation will include control over the abomination of skywriting advertising?
    Wing-Commander Roland Robinson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the London County Hall itself is disfigured with advertising slogans?
    Mr. Marshall: I can only repeat that we shall take an all-round view of this matter and do our best.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Will the forthcoming legislation take account of the increasing number of Government advertisements which are to be seen everywhere?

    National Parks (Hobhouse Committee Report)
    Lieut.-Colonel Sharpasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning whether he has yet received the Report of the Hobhouse Committee on National Parks; and what action is being taken to implement the Committee's recommendation.
    Mr. F. Marshall: My right hon. Friend hopes to receive a confidential preliminary memorandum from this Committee within the next three months, and to be able to publish their Report before the end of the year.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sharp: In view of the fact that the Minister stated that a Committee had been appointed in August, 1945, which was expected to report to this House or to the right hon. Gentleman within a
    1022
    year, can the Minister say whether he is quite definite that that report will be received at the time stated?
    Mr. Marshall: We hope it will be available by the end of the year, but we must recognise that the creation of national parks does raise certain difficult and complex administrative problems.

    Footpaths and Byways
    Lieutenant-Colonel Sharpasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning what action, he is taking to assist in the opening up of new footpaths, such as the Pennine Way.
    Mr. F. Marshall: By arrangement with the National Parks Committee, a special sub-committee of that Committee is being appointed to examine this and other related problems. I expect to announce the names and terms of reference in the course of a few days.
    Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Will the Parliamentary Secretary bear in mind that, although it is very desirable to open up new footpaths, there are a good many old ones and old byways which are at present completely closed, and will he use all his influence with the Service Departments to have them opened at the earliest possible moment?
    Mr. Marshall: Yes, Sir; I can assure my hon. Friend that we are already doing that.

    Heathrow Airport (Workers' Housing)
    Mr. Sparksasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning if he will give an assurance that in providing housing sites for the 10,000 workers expected to be transferred to London Airport, Heathrow, the claims of the constituent authorities of the West Middlesex Joint Planning Committee will not be superseded but will be treated with an equal degree of urgency.
    Mr. F. Marshall: The question of the availability and allocation of housing sites is under urgent consideration and will be discussed at an early date with the local authorities concerned by my Department and the Ministry of Health, the latter of which is responsible for the allocation of available sites between the several authorities affected. The West Middlesex Joint Planning Committee is, at my request, making a survey of housing sites within its area.
    Mr. Sparks: Is my hon. Friend aware that, if these 10,000 workers are provided for within the immediate vicinity of this airport, it will be a serious contravention of the planning standards of the area, and cannot he arrange for some of these workers to be accommodated outside the area of this London Airport, in the same way as the constituent authorities are being asked to rehouse their people many miles outside their own districts?
    Mr. Marshall: My hon. Friend has, I believe, already received an assurance about the urgency of the housing needs in the area of the West Middlesex Planning Authority from the Minister of Health, to which I can add nothing at the moment.

  HOUSING

    Temporary Houses (Costs)
    Mr. William Shepherdasked the Minister of Works what are the present day costs of manufacturing the aluminium type of temporary house and the costs of erection on the site; and the average present-day cost of manufacture and erection of other types of temporary houses.
    The Minister of Works (Mr. Tomlinson): With regard to the cost of manufacture of the aluminium house, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply to the hon. Member for Abertillery (Mr. Daggar) on 8th July. I am unable to give the information in the remainder of the Question for the reasons given in my replies to the hon. Member on 16th April and 21st May.
    Mr. Shepherd: In view of the fact that the taxpayers have to foot this bill, what right has the Minister to deny to them the costs that are incurred by not stating them in this House?
    Mr. Tomlinson: The cost was given in the answer to which I have referred.

    Arcon and Uni-Seco Houses
    9. Mr. Marplesasked the Minister of Works how many more Arcon houses there are than bases.
    Mr. Tomlinson: None. There are now about 850 more completed bases than Arcon houses.
    Mr. Marplesasked the Minister of Works how many bases prepared for Uni-Seco houses are completed and awaiting delivery of Uni-Seco houses.
    Mr. Tomlinson: About 4,800.

    Internal Fittings
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Minister of Works, in view of the fact that the completion of temporary houses n the Allington Road and Rookery sites in Orpington Urban District Council area is being held up because of the non-delivery of internal fittings, and also that there are over 2,000 families on the waiting list for houses in the Orpington area, if he will take steps to expedite the delivery of the fittings.
    Mr. Tomlinson: All possible steps are being taken to increase the production and expedite delivery of fittings for temporary houses. Available supplies are being distributed equitably and a high priority will be given to deliveries to the Allington Road site.
    Sir W. Smithers: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that delay and frustration are caused because of the attempt to run over every detail with Whitehall, and because, as he has shown in a previous answer, so many Ministries have to be consulted and cannot agree? Does he realise—[HON. MEMBERS: "Present a Petition "]—that the housing situation in Orpington is very serious, and that there are thousands of human tragedies?
    Mr. Tomlinson: It is for that reason that I gave the hon. Member the answer I did.
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Works whether he has yet considered complaints that have been sent to him about the delay in delivering internal fittings to Messrs. H. & L. Miller, Limited; and if he has any statement to make.
    Mr. Tomlinson: Inquiries are being made into these complaints, and I will communicate with the hon. Member.
    Sir W. Smithers: In order to save the time of the House, may I ask the Minister to read the reply to my supplementary question on No. 13 and for that reply to be reprinted here?
    Mr. Tomlinson: It is not for me to determine how the OFFICIAL REPORT shall be printed.
    Sir W. Smithers: I asked the right hon. Gentleman to read the answer again.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I will do that.
    Sir Wavell Wakefieldasked the Minister of Works whether he is aware that 52 bungalow houses in the borough of St. Marylebone cannot be completed because internal components cannot be obtained; and when supplies will be available.
    Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, Sir. Supplies for 14 of the houses are being delivered this week, and deliveries to the remaining houses will be made as soon as possible.

    Requisitioned Property
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister of Works the number of premises held on requisition by his Department in London for accommodation of bomb damage repair workers and the number of such premises so held a year ago.
    Mr. Tomlinson: The number of houses and flats held on requisition by my Department in London for accommodation of bomb damage repair workers at the present time is 333. The number on 16th July, 1945, was 909. The present figure will be further reduced to 180 by the end of this month.

    MINISTRY OF WORKS

      Westminster Hall (Scaffolding)
      Mr. W. Shepherdasked the Minister of Works how long has ale scaffolding been erected in Westminster Hall; what is its purpose; and when it is estimated that it will be dismantled.
      Mr. Tomlinson: The scaffolding in Westminster Hall was erected in 1941 to enable temporary repairs to be carried out after bomb damage to the roof, and it is being retained for the permanent repairs. It is hoped to begin the preliminary work this year. In present labour conditions it is not possible to say how long the work will take. The original estimate was 12–18 months, but the work may take considerably longer.

      Belgian Bricks
      Mr. Stanley Prescottasked the Minister of Works how many bricks are
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      being imported from Belgium for Government housing schemes.
      Mr. Tomlinson: Contracts have been placed with Belgian brickmakers for 81000,000 English-sized bricks and 30,000,000 medium-sized Belgian bricks. These bricks will be used for housing and other priority works.

      Building Bricks (Export)
      Mr. Prescottasked the Minister of Works how many bricks have been exported to Eire in the last two months; how many it is anticipated will be exported in the next six months; and to what extent such exports are on Government instructions.
      Mr. Tomlinson: So far as I am aware, no building bricks have been exported to Eire during the last two months. Permission to export will depend on circumstances, but it is not anticipated that building bricks will be available for export in the next six months.
      Mr. Prescott: Is it not possible that the right hon. Gentleman is misinformed in this matter? Is he aware that I am informed, on the most credible authority—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—on the most credible authority, that a considerable number of bricks are being exported from Lancashire, and will he look further into this matter?
      Mr. Tomlinson: I shall be glad if the hon. Member will let me have particulars. because that is not my information.
      Mr. Prescott: I have supplied them.
      Mr. Jennings: Has not this position arisen through a lack of foresight on the part of the Government?

      Building Workers, London (Wages)
      Mr. Marplesasked the Minister of Works what are the maximum rates of pay he allows to be paid to craftsmen and labourers in the London area as an essential condition of granting a building firm a certificate of registration under Defence Regulation 56AB.
      Mr. Tomlinson: Defence Regulation 56AB provides that the terms and conditions of employment to be observed on building work by a building undertaking shall be neither more nor less favourable than those fixed by joint agreement in the industry or by arbitration. Apart from

      1027
      establishments where individual agreements with the trade unions may be operative, the rates of wages fixed by the National Joint Council for the building industry in the London area are as follow:

      Craftsmen per hour

      Labourers per hour

      Inner London

      …

      2s.

      7½d

      2s.

      1½d.

      Outer London

      …

      2s.

      7d.

      2s.

      1d.

      Mr. Marples: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many firms wish to pay a higher rate than that which he has quoted, but dare not do so because of prosecution? Is he further aware that in this House, he stated that the London Cooperative Society were paying a figure in excess of that which he has just mentioned, and yet his Department has given them a licence under Defence Regulation 56AB?
      Mr. Tomlinson: I think I said that, where agreements were in force when Regulation 56AB came in, the agreement determined the terms under which the licence was granted.

      Miners' Hostel, Crook
      Mr. Murrayasked the Minister of Works the cost of the hostel at Crook, County Durham; how many boys have been trained in it for the mines; how long has it been empty; and what use is proposed for this set of buildings.
      Mr. Tomlinson: The cost of the miners' hostel at Crook was £71,000; no boys have been trained there, but an average of 74 working miners and industrial workers per week have been accommodated. The hostel was declared redundant on 30th March, 1946, but the Ministry of Fuel and Power arc using the kitchen and dining room to prepare packed meals for miners who work in small parties in areas too remote for them to use existing canteens. The question of the future use of the whole hostel is under consideration.
      Mr. Murray: Will the Minister treat this as a matter of great urgency? I was in the district a fortnight ago and the place is an absolute wilderness. It is a disgraceful business, and I ask the Minister to look into it.
      Mr. Tomlinson: I will.

      Huts (Political Organisations)
      Mr. Frederick Leeasked the Minister of Works whether he will be prepared
      1028
      to give priority to applications for huts required for bona fide political organisations.
      Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, Sir. As the more useful types of hut are in very short supply, I feel that priority should be confined to political organisations that are represented in this House and to cases where huts are required for bona fide political purposes and not merely for social and recreational objects. I hope the headquarters of political parties will be prepared to look into their branches' applications, as I shall give priority only where I have the headquarters' letter of support. It would, therefore, be convenient if individual applications are addressed in the first place to party headquarters, and transmitted thence to my Ministry.
      Mr. Charles Williams: Can the Minister assure us that there will be no Government prejudice against the Communist Party?
      Mr. Gallacher: May I ask the Minister if he will see to it that the Tory Party, in its declining years, is supplied with the huts it needs?
      Mr. W. J. Brown: Are we to understand that there are to be no Independent huts whatever?
      Mr. Tomlinson: With regard to the first supplementary question, there will be no prejudice against any party; with regard to the third supplementary question, the Independents are already provided for.
      Mr. James Callaghan: May I ask for guidance as to whether applications from the British Housewives' League should be sent through the Conservative Party?

      Newspaper Interview (Ministry Officer)
      Mr. Maudeasked the Minister of Works if it was with his authority that an official of his Department gave an interview to the "Evening Standard," which was published in the issue of 9th July, and a copy of which has been sent to him; and, if not, what disciplinary action he proposes to take.
      Mr. Tomlinson: The interview took place without the authority of a senior officer of my Department. Statements attributed to my officer in the report of the interview, were not, in fact, made by

      1029
      her, and the report is inaccurate in important major respects. The circumstances in which the interview was given were exceptional, but I am taking steps to prevent any recurrence.

      Requisitioned Property
      Mr. Heathcoat Amoryasked the Minister of Works whether, in view of the hardship falling on owners of requisitioned hotels and boarding houses who cannot tell when they will be enabled to resume their prewar livelihood, he will set some time limit to the occupation of such premises requisitioned during the war.
      Mr. Tomlinson: Statutory time limits for the operation of the powers under which premises are held on requisition are laid down by the Requisitioned Land and War Works Act and the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Acts, 1945. It is, however, the policy of His Majesty's Government to release hotels and boarding houses as soon as practicable, and more than three quarters of all the hotels and boarding houses held on requisition by Government Departments on 1st January, 1945, have already been released. Owners are given as long notice as possible of the date on which their premises will be derequisitioned, to enable them to make their plans.
      Mr. Amory: Does not the right hon. Gentleman feel that the present position is one of real injustice, seeing that these people get no compensation whatever for loss of goodwill and profits, and that many of them who have their capital locked up in these properties are unable to resume their livelihood elsewhere?
      Mr. Tomlinson: It is for that reason that we attempted to meet them by releasing the premises as speedily as possible and giving the owners notice of the fact in advance.
      Sir W. Wakefieldasked the Minister of Works if he is aware that 62–64, Baker Street, and 81, 83, and 85, Baker Street, are modern office buildings, let on lease to the Government and have now been empty for several months; and, in view of the urgent need for office accommodation in St. Marylebone, if he will either use these buildings or make them available for many export and business houses in urgent need of office accommodation.
      Mr. Tomlinson: These buildings have now been allocated to the Central Office of Information and will shortly be occupied.
      Sir W. Wakefield: Will the Minister consider how delays of this kind, involving many months, can be avoided; and is he aware that there is real resentment among people when they see large blocks of offices vacant which are needed for housing and for the export drive?
      Mr. Tomlinson: The solution to the problem of houses or offices of this kind is not as simple as it appears on the surface. These offices have been held for the purpose of releasing what hon. Members have been asking to be released for a long time, namely, the University buildings in which the Ministry of Information was housed.
      Mr. Wilson Harris: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that these houses will house the whole of the Central Office of Information, or are other premises to be used as well?
      Mr. Tomlinson: I cannot say without looking into the matter.
      Mr. De la Bère: The usual mess and muddle will follow.
      Mr. Butcherasked the Minister of Works the buildings and the approximate superficial area of space in the Central London and Whitehall area now occupied by the Ministry of Fuel and Power and Ministry of Transport, respectively, together with the approximate number of employees housed in each building.
      Mr. Tomlinson: Since the answer is long and consists of a table of figures, I will, with permission, send it to the hon. Member.
      Mr. Butcher: Will the right hon. Gentleman circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
      Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, Sir.
      Following is the answer:
      The total net area of accommodation occupied by clerical staff is approximately 168,000 f. s. in the case of the Ministry of Fuel and Power and 327,000 f. s., of the Ministry of Transport.
      The following are the buildings and the number of staff in each:

      Ministry of Fuel and Power

      Premises.

      Staff at 1.7.46

      Westminster House

      526

      Cromwell House

      149

      Kings Buildings

      281

      Queen Anne's Chambers

      66

      2, Little Smith Street

      33

      Chapter Street House

      20

      Sheil Mex House

      11

      18–23, 29–40, Upper Brook Street

      328

      Total

      1,414

      Ministry of Transport.

      Staff at 1.6.46

      Berkeley Square House, Berkeley Square

      1,964

      Mayfair Court, Stratton Street

      155

      Fitzmaurice Place, Berkeley Square

      283

      Devonshire House, Piccadilly

      208

      Morris House, Berkeley Square

      102

      Northgate, Regents Park

      587

      Total

      3,199

      Mobile Labour Force
      Mr. Garry Allighanasked the Minister of Works whether he is aware that his Department is sending mobile building workers into districts where there is unemployed building labour already available; and whether he will see that consultation takes, place between his officials and the local unemployment exchanges to prevent this.
      Mr. Tomlinson: Members of the mobile labour force are not ordinarily sent to undertake work for which suitable unemployed men are locally available, and there is a regular arrangement for consultation with the Employment Exchanges. If my hon. Friend has any particular case in mind I shall be glad to look into it.

    COAL INDUSTRY

      Trainees, Staffordshire (Bus Fares)
      Mr. Hugh Fraserasked the Minister of Fuel and Power why pit trainees are charged 1s. 3d. for conveyance between Cheadle, Staffordshire, and the Berry Hill Colliery, Stoke, by a Government omnibus on which other miners travel free; whether he is aware that private local omnibuses charge 1s. 2d. for the similar run; and what action he proposes to take.
      The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Shinwell): The New Haden Colliery, Cheadle, was closed in 1943 and many of the men employed there were compulsorily transferred to the Berry Hill Colliery. As they had previously incurred no expense in getting to and from their work, free transport from Cheadle to Berry Hill was provided for them. Certain other workmen at Berry Hill who live at Cheadle are allowed to use the same service but are required to pay fares. The special bus conveys men to the pithead which is some distance beyond the 1s. 2d. fare stage on the public service route.
      Mr. Fraser: Is it not rather unfair that the Bevin boys, who, in the ordinary way, would be employed at the New Haden Colliery if that colliery had been open, should not be allowed to travel free? Surely, they come under the same category as the miners transferred from that colliery to the colliery at Stoke-on-Trent?
      Mr. Shinwell: This is a practice which derives from the war years and there are certain anomalies. If there are any that I can remove, I will certainly remove them.
      Mr. Fraser: Will the Minister give an assurance that he will clear up this anomaly?
      Mr. Shinwell: I cannot give an assurance that T will clear up this one, but I will look into the matter closely.

      Directed Workers, Warwickshire (Wage Deductions)
      Sir John Mellorasked the Minister of Fuel and Power why deductions are made, without their consent, from the wages of men directed to work in the Warwickshire coalmines; whether he is aware that these deductions are for the benefit of a pension fund in which they have no interest; and why the amount deducted is not refunded upon their release from the coal industry.
      Mr. Shinwell: The deductions are made in accordance with an agreement between the employers and workers organisations in Warwickshire. A refund of contributions to men leaving the industry would be contrary to the terms of the trust deed under which the pension fund is established.
      Sir J. Mellor: As these deductions are not made with the consent of the individuals, will the Minister say under what stautory authority they are made? Are they not illegal?
      Mr. Shinwell: I understand that some time ago a ballot of the men in the coalfield was taken on this matter, and it was decided to proceed with this scheme. I am advised that any question as to the legality of the proceedings is a matter for the courts.

      Opencast Screening Plant, Blacker Hill
      Major Peter Robertsasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what was the total cost of the machinery and erection of an opencast screening plant at Blacker Hill, near Barnsley.
      Mr. Shinwell: The cost of the screen and its erection, including the necessary foundations, was approximately £12,600.
      Major Roberts: Has this screen been used?
      Mr. Shinwell: I am afraid not.
      Mr. Walkden: Will my right hon. Friend say when this money was authorised, for what purpose, and by whom?
      Mr. Shinwell: It was not authorised by me. It was authorised by somebody before me.
      Mr. Jennings: Can the right hon. Gentlemen say why this expenditure has been incurred if the screening plant has not been used, and why it has not been used?
      Mr. Shinwell: There are several reasons. I myself have had nothing to do with it; I think there are quite good reasons why the expenditure should have been incurred in the first place but, unfortunately, something went wrong.

      Opencast Workings, Yorkshire
      Mr. Holmesasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what is the acreage of the Monckton opencast site, near Barnsley; the approximate tonnage the site is expected to yield; and if he will give the number of employees on this site and the output of coal per man per day.
      Mr. Shinwell: I regret that it has not been possible to identify any site answer-
      1034
      ing to this description, but if my hon. Friend will furnish me with details of its location I will make further inquiries.
      Mr. Holmesasked the Minister of Fuel and Power how many opencast workings are in operation in Yorkshire; the acreage involved; and the average weekly tonnage produced.
      Mr. Shinwell: The answer to the first part of the Question is 34, and to the second 2,378 acres. Weekly outputs vary considerably according to the time of year. During March the average weekly output was 40,685 tons, and was 40,942, 46,257 and 45,723 respectively in April, May and June. The average production during the first two weeks in July rose to 56,887.
      Major Roberts: Would it not be of great assistance to the industry generally if we could now have a comprehensive White Paper on opencast workings, because a large number of people are interested in it, and there is no comprehensive information?
      Mr. Shinwell: I do not think a White Paper would be of much value. What is more important is to proceed with the production of coal from opencast sites, and I am glad to say that there is a substantial improvement.
      Mr. Walkden: Has my right hon. Friend got with him the results in respect of the weekly output at the Wentworth Hall workings?
      Mr. Shinwell: No, I have not got the results for Wentworth Hall before me, but they are very good.

    FUEL AND POWER

      Petrol Rationing (Increased Basic Allowance)
      Mr. Keelingasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is aware that the allowance of petrol for motorboats is inadequate in both summer and winter; and whether he proposes to increase it.
      Lieut.-Colonel Sir Cuthbert Head-lamasked the Minister of Fuel and Power when he proposes to end the rationing of petrol.
      Mr. Butcherasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what steps he takes to-make local inquiry as to the needs of the

      1035
      public for private hire purposes in any district; whether a public inquiry is held; and on what information his decision to refuse petrol on such grounds is based.
      Mr. Shinwell: I propose to make a statement on relaxations of petrol rationing at the end of Questions.
      Later—
      Mr. Shinwell: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made it clear in the statement he made yesterday that although the American loan has been ratified we have to utilise the additional dollar credits which will now be available in a number of directions. With the provision of dollars that can be made I have endeavoured to spread the relaxations in petrol rationing over as wide a field as possible. I have decided to increase the basic ration by 50 per cent. This concession will absorb more than half the additional supplies I shall be able to make available. To give more in this direction would be unfair to the more essential consumers.
      Motor cycles have hitherto been given allowances which provide a rather larger mileage than for cars. I propose to continue this. The changes I am making will also give a larger increase in the case of the smaller and more economical machines, those under 250 cubic centimetres. This is due partly to the practical difficulty which arises over the supply at petrol stations of quantities of less than half gallons, but the decision is also justified by the fact that the motor cycle is an economical form of transport, largely used as a means of getting work people to their work.
      The next category of user I have to mention is what is known as the "semi-essential" class. There are at present some 330,000 cars in this class, including those used by commercial travellers, insurance agents and a large number of other professional and business people who use motor cars in connection with their business. A considerable proportion of the motorists in this class have up to now been somewhat severely rationed, and I should like to have been able to give a larger increase in these cases. Administratively it is not practicable in the time available to re-assess the needs of such a large number. The increase in the basic ration will help, and I propose, for
      1036
      the current issue of "S" unit coupons only, to increase their value by 50 per cent. Before the next general issue of "S" coupons I will consider whether I cannot increase the maximum allowances so as to help the categories of greatest need. At the same time some reduction may have to be made in the case of those who under the general increase now to be made will secure greater benefit than their circumstances justify.
      I have received strong representations from associations of owners of hire cars and taxicabs that the present restrictions on radius of operation are no longer justified in view of the public demand for this type of motor transport. I have carefully considered these representations and propose to remove these restrictions. I also propose to give increased allowances of 25 per cent. In view of these concessions I appeal to owners of hire cars and taxicabs to see that the local services, which they are primarily designed to meet, are maintained. There is a large number of cars in what is known as the "essential" class and in the case of many of these, existing allowances are already sufficient to cover the essential needs of their owners. With increasing industrial activity I propose, however, to authorise the regional petroleum officers to make rather more generous allowances where these can be justified.
      These relaxations will require the provision of very considerable additional supplies. Where the increases are made available by an increase in the value of the petrol coupons the change will be effective from 1st August, and all coupons which are valid during August and subsequently will carry the higher value. Thus all owners of cars and motor cycles entitled to the basic ration will be able to use in August, at the higher value, coupons for July which under the present carry over system have not already been used. This will assist the holiday traffic. As can well be realised the readjustments involved will throw much additional work on the staffs of the regional petroleum offices, and I would appeal to motor car and cycle owners not to write to these offices unnecessarily, particularly during the next few weeks. In present circumstances I regard the concessions I have announced as making a substantial contribution to the improvement of our inland transport facilities which will bring benefit to the whole of the community. I am issuing

      1037
      a statement to the Press giving particulars showing how the relaxations will be implemented and in this I include particulars in respect of some smaller miscellaneous categories with the details of which I need not burden the House.
      Captain John Crowder: What is the position regarding "E" coupons? The Minister has stated that "S" coupons will be increased by 50 per cent. in value, but he has said nothing about "E" coupons.
      Mr. Shinwell: These are the essential coupons, and in our opinion, as I have stated, the allowances are sufficient for the purposes desired. I propose, with the improvement in the industrial activity, to instruct regional petroleum officers to deal with this case.
      Mr. Blackburn: Can the Minister give the estimated increase of the annual dollar expenditure involved by this relaxation?
      Mr. Shinwell: I rather think that the financial aspect is a matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
      Sir I. Fraser: Will the Minister instruct his officers to be particularly generous to users in rural areas?
      Mr. Shinwell: I think that in fact they are.
      Mr. W. J. Brown: Are motor boats included in the special categories to which the Minister referred at the end of his reply?
      Mr. Shinwell: Yes, Sir, motor boats are included in the miscellaneous categories, and I hope to do something for them.
      Mr. Stokes: While I am sure we all welcome the announcement which the Minister has made, may I ask him whether he will explain to the House how the dollar exchange comes into it? Does he not regard Abadan as in the sterling area? Is it not right that Abadan could supply all our needs?
      Mr. Shinwell: I have explained these matters to the House before—in the Adjournment Debate last Thursday, for example. Of course, if we used all the oil in the sterling area for United Kingdom purposes, we could obviously make ourselves self-sufficient; if the oil came in and we were assured of supplies, it would be all right. But we have a very large
      1038
      export trade in oil, and, indeed, oil is our largest export. We have to purchase dollar oil on the short hauls, which saves tanker space and saves dollars on tankers. Therefore, we use dollar oil on short hauls instead of sterling oil, and on the whole I think it is to our advantage.
      Mr. Keeling: Will the Minister give an assurance that an allowance will be made to motor boats in the autumn, and also during the winter, which will be not much more wintry than the summer?
      Mr. Shinwell: We had better wait and see. As regards motor boats, I have explained that we shall certainly do what we can to assist.
      Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: While I thank the Minister for his quite substantial concession, is he aware that there is a Motion on the Order Paper, signed by over 100 Members who represent over 6,000,000 electors, advocating the abolition of rationing altogether, and will he, therefore, proceed with further relaxations as conditions become easier?
      Mr. Shinwell: I have said over and over again that nothing would please me more than to abolish petrol rationing, but administratively it is difficult, and it is costly. I would not care to give any assurance, and I would advise hon. Members to look in the columns of "The Times" of this morning and see what has happened in a particular place.
      Mr. Leslie Hale: Will the Minister state whether the abolition of mileage restrictions includes the abolition of the restrictions on picking up return fares?
      Mr. Shinwell: As to the picking up of return fares, I am not sure that that is not a matter for the Minister of Transport. I cannot say what the radius restrictions are, or whether they will be abolished completely.
      Mr. Turton: Will the Minister give an assurance that absolute priority is given to all applications for petrol for agriculture to get in the harvest?
      Mr. Shinwell: We must naturally do all we can to assist agriculture, and that will be done, but I beg all Members and the public not to press too hardly on the regional control officers, because they are very hardly pressed at the present time.
      Mr. Mathers: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that private car hirers, as

      1039
      compared with taxi hirers, have all along considered themselves to be placed in a disadvantageous position, and in giving this same percentage increase he is simply perpetuating that position? Will he take that into account in any further steps he takes in relaxing petrol rationing?
      Mr. Shinwell: I have every reason to believe that the hire car people will be very satisfied.
      Major Peter Roberts: How does the Minister propose to assist ex-Servicemen who have already applied for petrol to take up commercial travelling but have been refused? It seems to me that they are not going to get any assistance.
      Mr. Shinwell: They are going to get a lot of assistance. If the hon. and gallant Member will examine what I have said and look at the statement on implementation, he will see that everybody will be satisfied.

      Severn Barrage Seheme
      Sir Stanley Reedasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether a decision has yet been reached on the recommendation of the expert committee's report on the Severn Barrage Scheme to construct a new tidal model, and to give the dock authorities the opportunity of being represented on a committee of hydraulic experts who would supervise the construction and operation of the new model.
      Mr. Shinwell: No decision has yet been reached upon the Severn Barrage Report.
      Sir S. Reed: Will the Minister look into this matter again to see that all the time and money devoted to this inquiry is not short-circuited by the small cost of the model which is recommended in order to complete this project?
      Mr. Shinwell: As soon as I get an opportunity, I will see what can be done.

      Petrol Storage
      Sir T. Mooreasked the Minister of Fuel and Power how many gallons of petrol are still stored in underground tanks in Great Britain.
      Mr. Shinwell: I regret that it would not be in the public interest to disclose the information asked for by the hon. and gallant Member.
      Sir T. Moore: While not understanding this mystery which surrounds our peacetime petrol supplies, I reserve the right to ask further questions on this matter in future, subject to Mr. Speaker's agreement.
      Sir T. Mooreasked the Minister of Fuel and Power how many gallons of petrol are sealed off in the petrol pumps of Britain; and for what purpose this petrol is being so retained.
      Mr. Shinwell: So far as I am aware, there are no stocks of petrol sealed off in the petrol pumps of this country. However, if the hon. and gallant Member will give me any further information, I will look into the matter.

      Industrial Coal Stocks
      Mr. Sidney Shephardasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he can yet give an assurance that sufficient stocks of industrial coal will be available to enable British industry to be fully employed during the winter.
      Mr. Shinwell: It is clearly not possible to give a definite assurance of the kind asked for, but I shall try by every possible means to ensure that British industry will have the fuel it needs next winter.
      Mr. Shephard: Arising out of that answer, which is very disturbing, could the Minister give authority for industrial firms to stock up during the summer when the amount of fuel consumed is not so great?
      Mr. Shinwell: Of course, industrial firms are now in process of stocking up.
      Mr. Shephard: Is the Minister aware that a particular firm of which I have knowledge asked permission to stock up during the summer, and that they were refused?
      Mr. Shinwell: It depends on what they wanted in the way of stock, and whether the amount they wanted was more than that to which they were entitled. If the hon. Member will give me any information about this case, I will see what I can do.

      Fuel Merchants (Prices Schedule)
      Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether it is the practice of his Department to circulate fuel merchants with a schedule of

      1041
      prices every week, whether that schedule involves alteration in current prices or not.
      Mr. Shinwell: No, Sir. Fuel prices are only circulated to merchants when changes are made.

      Electricity Poles
      Mr. Vaneasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is aware that the Electricity Commissioners' circular instruction No. 950/1101, of Zest June, 1946, gives priority of allocation of poles to newly built premises; and why this preferential treatment is given to such premises when many applications in respect of older premises have remained outstanding through the war years.
      Mr. Shinwell: Yes, Sir. The provision of electrical facilities to new premises must for the time being have priority over existing premises which have alternative facilities, but every effort will be made to provide such facilities to existing premises as soon as possible.
      Mr. Vane: Is the Minister aware that the Electricity Commissioners' circular does not make clear the alternative facilities and that it seems most unfair to adopt the principle that the last should be first and the first should be last?
      Mr. Shinwell: Surely, if there are no facilities, it is desirable to provide them.
      Mr. Vaneasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he is aware that the Electricity Commissioners, in their circular instructions No. 950/1101 dated 21st June, have given their encouragement to the use of concrete poles for overhead supply of electricity; and if he will now also encourage the use of this material in rural areas as an alternative to wooden poles, where the cost is not prohibitive.
      Mr. Shinwell: Yes, Sir.
      Colonel Clarke: Will the Minister try to prevail on his right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply to release more steel reinforcement for these poles, because production is being hampered in view of the fact that steel reinforcement is difficult to get?
      Mr. Shinwell: The possibility of using these poles extensively is being investigated. We are pushing ahead as fast as we can.

      Peat (Utilisation)
      Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Minister of Fuel and Power, what measures are proposed for the utilisation of peat this year; and whether, in the surveys of peat resources, other possible uses than burning as solid fuel will be borne in mind.
      Mr. Shinwell: In reply to the first part of the Question, I would refer to my hon. Friend to the answer given on 4th June to the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter), of which I am sending him a copy; the reply to the second part is in the affirmative.

    STATUTORY AUTHORITIES (PRESS ATTENDANCE)
    Mr. Edelmanasked the Prime Minister whether he will give an assurance that, when the duties hitherto undertaken by local authorities or any organisation whose proceedings were open to the Press are transferred to Government corporations, boards or companies, the right of the Press to attend the meetings of the new controlling organisations will be safeguarded.
    The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): I have been asked to reply. It would not be practicable for statutory bodies set up to operate trading services transferred from local authorities to conduct their business in public sessions. In the case of regional hospital boards it can reasonably be argued that it would be within the spirit of the provisions of the Local Authorities (Admission of Press to Meetings) Act, 1908, that the Press should be admitted to meetings of the board, and the Minister of Health has already given an assurance that the necessary arrangements will be made.

    GERMANY

      Harvest Labour
      Mr. Edelmanasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether the available labour force in the British zone of Germany is adequate to gather in the harvest.
      The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. John Hynd): Yes, Sir.
      Mr. Edelman: As an additional safeguard, would my hon. Friend return those

      1043
      non-Nazi prisoners of war to Germany as soon as possible, so as to meet the requirements of their own harvest?
      Mr. Hynd: There are no additional safeguards required in this matter. There is no difficulty whatever in providing adequate labour for the harvest. As will be readily understood, because of the comparatively unsalubrious conditions of employment in the towns in Germany, they are only too anxious to work in the harvest.

      Displaced Persons' Camps (Males)
      Mr. Medlandasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what is the number of males in displaced persons' camps in Germany between the ages of 18 and 65 years; to what extent they are engaged in useful work; and what is the cost of maintaining these camps chargeable to this country.
      Mr. J. Hynd: There are about 176,000 such persons in the British zone of Germany. I am having inquiries made regarding the remaining parts of the Question, and will communicate further with my hon. Friend.

    AUSTRIAN AND GERMAN REFUGEES (REPATRIATION)
    Mrs. Ayrton Gouldasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he will now make a statement regarding the repatriation of Austrian and German refugees.
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he will now arrange the date when a full scheme permitting Austrian refugees now living in this country, who wish to return for the purpose of the reconstruction and development of Austria, will be given permission and facilities to do so, in view of the fact that self-government has now been restored.
    Mr. J. Hynd: I am now in a position to announce that applications can he entertained from Austrian and German refugees in the United Kingdom who wish to return to Austria and to the British zone of Germany to assist in the reconstruction of their countries. Application forms can be obtained by writing to the
    1044
    Control Office for Germany and Austria, Norfolk House, St. James's Square, London, S.W.Z. Conditions in Germany and Austria are such that, coupled with the difficult transport situation, only a limited number of refugees can go back at the moment; and in dealing with applications, priority will be given to those who can contribute most usefully to their country's reconstructions. Those who return will normally be expected to take their dependants with them. It is hoped to extend the scheme to refugees living outside the United Kingdom as and when conditions improve. The method of application will then be stated in local announcements.

    NATIONAL FINANCE

      Prisoner of War Labour (Hire Receipts)
      Mr. Stokesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much money is being received by His Majesty's Government as a result of the hire of German prisoners of war to agriculture and industry reckoned on the difference between a hire price of £4 per week average and the approximate cost of 30s. a week to cover bare wages and keep and whether he will show a separate item for this revenue in his next Budget statement.
      The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Dalton): I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) on 25th June, to which I have nothing to add. The answer to the second part of the Question is "No. Sir."
      Mr. Stokes: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the wages received by these people are purely nominal, that the clear cost of upkeep, as given in answer to a Question in this House, is 23s. a week? Is he further aware that it is laid down in the Geneva Convention that their accounts are to be credited with a proportion of the wages for which they work, and that that is not being done? Will my right hon. Friend make a statement about it?
      Mr. Dalton: Yes, Sir, I will make a statement. I anticipate that I shall make a loss on the deal. As was explained to the hon. Member for Monmouth in the answer which I have cited, we are

      1045
      providing in the Army Estimates for the receipt of £36 million in respect of the services of enemy prisoners of war. He continued:
      " I do not expect this estimated receipt to cover the maintenance and other expenses to the Exchequer."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 25th June. 1946: vol. 424. C. 151.)
      Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Could not the whole situation be considerably simplified if these prisoners were returned as soon as possible to their homes?
      Mr. Dalton: It would be simplified to the extent that our harvest would suffer.
      Mr. Sydney Silverman: Would my right hon. Friend consider the advisability of having a special account and making a special statement in order to make certain that we are not making a profit out of the retention of these people?
      Mr. Dalton: I would sooner make a profit than a loss.
      Mr. Stokes: Is this not an exceptional departure, and is it not a fact that nothing of this sort was done in the last war? This is a most unusual precedent and is really equivalent to the employment of slave labour.

      Palestine (Maintenance of Order)
      Mr. Keelingasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the estimated cost to his Department of maintaining order in Palestine during the current financial year.
      Mr. Dalton: No useful estimate can be framed since the course of events in Palestine cannot be foreseen.
      Mr. Keeling: Could the Chancellor say how much expenditure in the last three months has been due to the rash promises made to the Jews by his party before they took office?
      Mr. Gallacher: What about the hon. Member's own party?

      Cabinet Ministers (Cars and Drivers)
      Mr. Grimstonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the average cost per annum of providing one Cabinet Minister with one motor car and chauffeur; and what gross increase of salary over the present figure of £5,000 per annum would be required in order to
      1046
      produce the extra net income sufficient to cover this cost after deduction of Income Tax and Surtax at present rates and, assuming for the purposes of the calculation, that there is no private income.
      Mr. Dalton: One thousand and twenty-five pounds. As regards the second part of the Question, expenses necessarily incurred by the holder of an office in the performance of his duties are deductible in arriving at his Income Tax and Surtax assessments. The figure asked for is. therefore, quite unreal.
      Mr. Grimston: Although in the opinion of the Chancellor the figure is unreal, could he, nevertheless. give it to me?
      Mr. Dalton: No, Sir. It would not mean anything.

      War Damage Payments
      Mr. Robensasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the recent announcement by the Chairman of the War Damage Commission, he will state the amount up to date of the deficit on the war damage contributions to he. met direct by the Treasury.
      Mr. Dalton: Up to 28th June, 1946, the payments under Part 1 of the War Damage Act exceeded the contributions by £173,600,000.
      Mr. Manningham-Bullerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what percentage of value-payment claims have been finally agreed by the War Damage Commission with the parties concerned in the London region.
      Mr. Dalton: About 17 per cent.
      Earl Winterton: Would the right hon. Gentleman give careful consideration to the making of a statement at the commencement of the next Session, on the whole question of value payments, especially in the country districts, including the question of the interest owed on-those payments, which in some cases has been owed for six years?
      Mr. Dalton: As I have several times stated in reply to Questions in the House, the question of these payments being. made depends partly on the danger of inflation being avoided, and, secondly, on the availability of supplies, so that those who receive the payments will be able to spend them effectively. Perhaps the

      1047
      noble Lord, when we reassemble, would put down a question, and I will be very glad to answer it.
      Mr. Manningham-Buller: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the delay in making these value payments is causing great hardship to many individuals?
      Mr. Dalton: The hon. and learned Gentleman asked with regard to London, and the answer is that which I have given him. Over the country as a whole 36 per cent. of the cases have now been agreed, but London is backward in this regard. In fairness to the War Damage Commission, I must also add that they are considerably handicapped by the slowness with which persons entitled to these value payments reply to correspondence in many cases; that is one of the factors which is holding us back. Our target is to settle the whole matter by the end of this year, when we hope to have no agreement incomplete.
      Mr. Manningham-Buller: Would the right hon. Gentleman note that my Question referred to cases where payment had been agreed, whereas my supplementary question was to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that great hardship is caused by failure to make the payment of sums that have been agreed?
      Mr. Dalton: That is a completely different question.

      German Assets, Switzerland (Disposal)
      Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish as a Command Paper the full text of the agreement reached with the Swiss Government concerning the disposal of German assets in Switzerland.
      Mr. Dalton: Yes, Sir, with pleasure.

      Municipal Banks
      Mr. Aylesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the success of the Birmingham Municipal Bank with its advantages to citizens desiring to own their own houses, and the financing of municipal schemes, he will take steps to enable other municipal bodies to have powers to establish similar institutions.
      Mr. Dalton: On the whole, having regard to recent developments, including
      1048
      the facilities provided by the National Savings Movement, and the very cheap rates at which money is now being lent by the Government to local authorities, I do not think it is necessary to encourage the establishment of further municipal banks.

      Postwar Credits (Disabled Civilians)
      Sir I. Fraserasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will pay postwar credits to disabled civilians at the moment when they leave hospital and need the money for resettlement.
      Mr. Dalton: No, Sir. I cannot at present extend my proposals for the repayment of the Income Tax postwar credits.
      Sir I. Fraser: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that a disabled ex-Serviceman gets his payment at the time he leaves the Service, which is just when he wants resettlement; and cannot he do the same for civilians?
      Mr. Dalton: What an ex-Serviceman gets is not an Income Tax postwar credit; it is the postwar credit in respect of his Army service. I have frequently regretted that the term "postwar credit" is used to cover both these equally. It is a terminology invented before my time, and I think it is very confusing. My answer relates solely to postwar credits.
      Sir I. Fraser: Whatever it is called, it is money they want.
      Mr. Dalton: That is true of us all.

      Income Tax and Surtax
      Mr. A. Lewisasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the number of people paying Income Tax and Surtax who are not gainfully employed; and the total sum of their returned incomes under the Income Tax Acts.
      Mr. Dalton: For 1937–38, the only year for which this information is available, 290,000 persons with incomes exceeding £200 and an aggregate total income of £220 millions.
      Mr. Lewis: Could the Chancellor state how many out of that number were in receipt of superannuation or pensions?
      Mr. Dalton: No, Sir. I am afraid it would be quite impossible to ascertain that.

      British Assets, India
      Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the sterling value of British assets in India, as at 1st April, 1938, and 1946, respectively, or at the nearest convenient date; and the causes of any changes.
      Mr. Dalton: I regret that figures are not available.
      Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a comprehensive statement on the policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to the sale of British assets in India to Indian nationals.
      Mr. Dalton: It is not the policy of His Majesty's Government to intervene as regards sales of British business interests in India. Such sales have been on a relatively small scale and take place only when they are regarded as commercially advantageous by the parties concerned.

      Minister of Supply (Lodging)
      Viscount Hinchingbrookeasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what is the annual cost to the Exchequer of the free lodging given to, or provided for, the Minister of Supply.
      The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): The Minister of Supply has his own home in London which he maintains at his own expense. He also has a bed in his office for use if kept late.
      Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Why was this item not added to the list given by the Chancellor?
      Mr. Glenvil Hall: I do not know the item to which the noble Lord is referring.
      Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Free lodging.
      Mr. Glenvil Hall: There is no free lodging here. If a Minister likes to put his own bed in his office and sleep there when he is late, it seems to me there is nothing to add.

    UNESTABLISHED CIVIL SERVANTS (RETIREMENT GRATUITIES)
    Sir Basil Neven-Spenceasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will consider amending the Superannuation Act, 1887, so as to increase the gratuity
    1050
    payable on retirement to unestablished technical civil servants, from one week's pay to four weeks' pay for every year of service.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: This suggestion will be considered with others at the next review of the conditions of service of unestablished staff in the Civil Service.
    Mr. W. J. Brown: Could the Financial Secretary indicate when that will be?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: No, Sir, I am sorry, I cannot, but I personally hope it may be quite soon.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Engineering Industry
    Mr. Aylesasked the Minister at Labour the number of men, women and apprentices, employed in the engineering industry in 1938 and at the present time; the percentage difference in the wages paid in 1938 and at the present time, taking 1938 as 100; and the percentage increase in the cost of living during the same period.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): As the reply contains a tabular statement, I will with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:
    It is estimated that the number of insured persons in employment in the engineering, motor vehicle and aircraft industries at mid-1938 and the corresponding number, together with one-half the number of women in part-time employment, at May, 1946, were as follow:

    Males(14 and under 65)

    Females(14 and under 60)

    Mid–1938

    1,138,700

    123,000

    May, 1946

    1,364,300

    352,900

    Particulars are not available as to the number of apprentices included in these figures. The percentage increases in average weekly earnings in the same industries between October, 1938, and January, 1946, the latest date for which the information is available, were:

    Men(21 years and over)

    …

    57

    Youth and boys under 21

    …

    61

    Women (18 years and over)

    …

    94

    Girls under 18

    …

    75

    The increase in the cost of living, as shown by the official index figure between 1st October, 1938. and 1st January, 1946, was 31 per cent.

    Boot Repairs (Training Courses, Yorkshire)
    Mr. Yorkasked the Minister of Labour why there is a hold up in training courses for boot and shoe repairing in Yorkshire; what is the average waiting period before a vacancy can be granted; and what steps he is taking to overcome these delays.
    Mr. Isaacs: Owing to the general shortage of leather supplies there has been unavoidable delay in obtaining materials for the boot repairing classes in Yorkshire, and, in consequence, there has been several months' delay in allocating men to training. Provided the supply position continues to improve, it will shortly be possible to extend the number of training places available.
    Mr. York: When the men concerned wish to take up one of these courses, are the Ministry's officials trying to dissuade them from taking those courses and to take some other course instead?
    Mr. Isaacs: I would not like to say they were trying to dissuade the men. However, we do point out to the men where there is considerable delay in taking up training in certain industries, and we direct their attention to other industries in which there is a need for trainees.

    Building Industry (Training)
    Mr. Charles Smithasked the Minister of Labour whether he is satisfied with the proportion of men at Government building trade training centres in the Eastern region, who are receiving instruction in bricklaying and plastering; and, if not, what action he proposes to take to increase the numbers.
    Mr. Isaacs: In arranging the proportions of training facilities provided in the various trades, due regard is had to the estimated needs of industry. These proportions are adjusted from time to time as experience requires, and recently steps have been taken, after consultation with the industry, to increase the proportion of men receiving instruction in bricklaying and plastering in all regions.

    Disabled Persons (Employers' Percentage)
    Sir I. Fraserasked the Minister of Labour if he will now raise the percentage of disabled persons who must be employed by certain employers under the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act, 1944.
    Mr. Isaacs: As I informed the hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) on 25th June, I am in consultation with employers' and workers' organisations and will make an announcement at an early date.
    Sir I. Fraser: When will that be?
    Mr. Isaacs: I cannot say, but I can assure the House that it is a rather difficult problem to face. Under the terms of the Act, we have to take into consideration asking an employer to take a percentage of his total number of staff, and where firms have a very large number of women and a small number of men on their staffs, and the proportion has to cover the whole, some negotiation is necessary to keep the balance. I would like to say, as I have said before, that we are having the most cordial cooperation from employers and organisations in this matter.

    Industrial Hostels (Charges)
    Mrs. Ganleyasked the Minister of Labour what charges are made to men employed away from home and living in industrial hostels; whether he contemplates any alteration in these charges; and whether the proportionate rebate will still be allowed to those who desire to spend their weekends at their own homes.
    Mr. Isaacs: On the first two parts of the Question, I would refer to the reply I gave on 2nd July to the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. William Paling). As regards the third part, a reduction in charge in the hostels will be made only where absence exceeds three nights.

  DEMOBILISATION

    Release Group Dates
    Captain Chetwyndasked the Minister of Labour if he will give the planned release group dates up to gist December, 1946.
    Mr. Isaacs: I am not yet in a position to give this information.
    Mr. Callaghan: Can the Minister say when he hopes to be able to give it, because we are now only about eight weeks off the end of the present plan?
    Mr. Isaacs: I would like to give expression to my hopes. I am anxious to do it as soon as possible.

    Leave
    Major Robertsasked the Minister of Labour what number of ex-members of His Majesty's Forces who have not yet taken up employment, given as 840,000 as at end of April, 1946, are still on demobilisation leave.
    Mr. Isaacs: I regret that this information is not available.
    Major Roberts: Surely, these men are being paid, or have been paid, therefore there must be information about it?
    Mr. Isaacs: They are being paid, and they are drawing their pay, but when they come along to the employment exchanges and sign on we are not entitled to say to these men: "Are you on leave receiving full pay?" That is what we are being asked to do.

  SCOTLAND

    Adopted Children
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will take steps to ensure that the property of children who die intestate, after having been adopted by Scottish persons, will pass to the adopted, instead of to the natural parents.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Westwood): So far as I am aware there is no general demand for a change in the law in the sense suggested, but I am willing to consider any evidence which my hon. and learned Friend may care to put forward in support of it.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware that many persons who, during the war, generously adopted children made investments in war loan and otherwise for the benefit of those children and, on the death of the children, such investments now go to the natural parents, thereby causing an injustice to the adopted parents; and does he not think it would be a good thing to remedy that state of affairs in the interests of the people who have been kind enough to adopt children?
    Mr. Westwood: I can assure my hon. and learned Friend that the effect of a proposal such as he has made on the Scots law of succession would require very careful consideration.
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will consider the advisability of making statutory provision for the adoption of infants in Scotland on lines similar to those of the Adoption of Children Act, 1926.
    Mr. Westwood: The Adoption of Children (Scotland) Act, which came into operation on 1st October, 1930, is On similar lines to the Adoption of Children Act, 1926, which applies to England and Wales.

    Bread Rationing (Farm Workers)
    Mr. Henderson Stewartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will explain the likely effect of bread rationing upon farm workers' diet in Scotland; and if he will give an assurance that this new rationing scheme will not interfere with the scale of perquisites which farm workers now enjoy.
    Mr. Westwood: I have been in consultation in this matter with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food, who is fully aware of the importance of bread in farm workers' diet. He informs me that the special provision made in the proposed bread rationing scheme for manual workers should enable farm workers to obtain sufficient supplies of bread to meet the requirements of their diet. So far as the second part of the Question is concerned, ways of maintaining the system and scale of perquisites are being worked out.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that such perquisites as oatmeal will he preserved for farm workers?
    Mr. Westwood: I can only state, as I have already pointed out, that ways of maintaining the system to which the hon. Member has just referred are being worked out. A meeting is likely to he held not later than today for the purpose of discussing the matter.
    Mr. Snadden: Will the Secretary of State impress upon the Minister of Food the very great importance both of bread rationing and of the perquisites to farm workers in Scotland?
    Mr. Westwood: I can certainly assure the hon. Member that all these questions are being kept in mind in dealing with this difficult problem.

    Sand and Gravel, Vale of Leven
    Commander Galbraithasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the divergence of informed opinion as to the availability of sand and gravel in the Vale of Leven, he will Cause a public inquiry to be held.
    Mr. Westwood: The effect of the establishment of the industrial estate Strathleven on the working of the sand and gravel deposits was most carefully considered by my right hon. Friends the President of the Board of Trade, the Minister of Works and myself before a decision was reached that the site at Strathleven should be acquired. This site is the only suitable one in the area and it was felt that the loss of these deposits of sand and gravel which while regrettable was not likely seriously to impede supplies of building materials would have to be accepted in view of the urgent need for industrial development in the area.
    The question of developing certain alternative sources of sand and gravel has been discussed with the Ballast Sand and Allied Trades Association and it has been suggested to them that there should he a full technical investigation into the commercial workability of these sources in which the assistance of the Departments concerned would be available.
    Commander Galbraith: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the meeting to which he has referred none of his Departmental officials were willing to certify that even one ton of gravel was commercially workable in the whole of the Vale of Leven area, and in view of the importance of the question to the West of Scotland, will he not take the matter up again with the President of the Board of Trade?
    Mr. Westwood: I am aware of the difficulties, and nobody knows better than the hon. and gallant Member how much personal attention I have given to this particular problem, I will certainly see that a proper technical investigation is carried through in the interests of those concerned in the question.
    Mr. McKinlay: In view of the fact that the development of industry in my constituency is being held up through the selfish attitude of the sand and gravel people, do I understand from that reply that the development of the Leven estate
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    will be held up until such time as it is determined whether there is sand available in the district or not?
    Mr. Westwood: I have already pointed out that we have to consider many aspects of this question. I am very anxious for the industrial estate to be developed as speedily as possible, but I am having these further inquiries made so that there will be a square deal not merely in connection with the development of the industrial estate, but so far as other building interests are concerned.
    Mr. McKinlay: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I received an assurance almost two months ago, not only from his Department, but from the Board of Trade, that the development was ready to start; and is he also aware that the unemployment figures in the Vale of Leven are rising every day and that the people concerned have approached every Member of Parliament between there and the South of England?
    Mr. Westwood: I am aware of the difficulties in that particular part of Scotland, and I am desperately anxious to get a move on in the development of that estate.

    H.M.S. "Lochinvar," Granton
    Mr. Hoyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if any decision has been reached regarding the future of H.M.S. "Lochinvar," Granton, Edinburgh; and if he has any statement to make.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Buchanan): Yes, Sir. Two-thirds of this camp have been made available to the Corporation of Edinburgh for housing homeless families and the first 30 of about 100 families are already in occupation. The remainder is to be used by the Ministry of Labour for the accommodation of building trade trainees.

  BELGIAN PRISON CAMPS (ALLEGATIONS)
  Mr. Stokesasked the Secretary of State for War whether he can yet make any statement on the results of his investigation into the allegation of starvation in prisoner-of-war camps in Belgium, which resulted in numbers of men being shipped to this country unfit for work, due to malnutrition; and what action has been taken against those responsible.
  The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Bellenger): I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the hon. Member for Eastern Surrey (Mr. Astor) on 2nd July.
  Mr. Stokes: Yes, but that reply does not answer this Question at all; I have made the closest study of it, and must ask my hon. Friend whether he is aware that that reply is wrong. Is he aware that quite recently I was at a camp at which several hundred prisoners of war arrived from Belgian camps in a dire state of starvation, yet that report given to the House states that all is well? Can he explain how it is that people arrive starving if they were all right on the other side?
  Mr. Bellenger: As my hon. Friend is to raise the matter on the Adjournment, perhaps we might continue the discussion then.
  Mr. Eden: May I also remind the Minister that I have more than once asked the Government that. whatever the result of these investigations, they should all be made fully public? Nothing can be so harmful as when allegations are made and we do not know the answer to them.
  Mr. Bellenger: In the statement to which I referred in my answer I made a very full explanation. On the whole it was a fair one, and was accepted by those who visited the camps. If the right hon. Gentleman will only refer to "The Times," he will find a very interesting letter saying that the report I made was a fair one.
  Mr. Stokes: I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter again tonight.

  BRITISH ARMY

    Requisitioned Premises, Somerset
    Mr. Collinsasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that Somerset County Council premises at Sandhill Park. formerly used as a special school for mentally backward children, which were requisitioned as a military hospital, have long since been vacated but are still subject to requisition order; and whether, in view of the urgent need for accommodation of this kind, he will take immediate action to release the property to the county council.
    Mr. Bellenger: These premises are in process of derequisition and will be given up as soon as negotiations between the owners and the War Department in respect of fittings have been completed.
    Mr. Collins: Can my hon. Friend give the House any idea when these premises are likely to be derequisitioned, as they have been empty for such a long time and are so urgently needed?
    Mr. Bellenger: Very soon, but I will endeavour to speed up the negotiations.

    13th Parachute Battalion, Malaya (Arrests)
    Mr. Austinasked the Secretary of State for War whether he has any statement to make on the arrest and detention of 267 men of the 13th Parachute Battalion in Malaya, on 14th May, 1946; whether he is aware that the armed detachment of the Devonshire Regiment which escorted these men were informed that this duty was that of raiding a Communist party headquarters; whether the complaints that led to these arrests have been investigated; and whether he is satisfied that the action taken was justified.
    Mr. Bellenger: The circumstances leading up to the arrests of men of the 13th Parachute Battalion, and the complaints of the men concerned, have been the subject of investigation by courts of inquiry, the reports of which have not yet reached my right hon. Friend. Until these are available he is not in a position to make a statement. He understands that there is no truth in the statement that the detachment of the Devonshire Regiment referred to were told that they were to raid a Communist Party headquarters.
    Mr. Austin: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether, if I send him evidence, there will be no victimisation of the men concerned? Will he lend a sympathetic ear to the views of the rankers themselves this time, and not merely accept the usual Army officer doctrine?
    Mr. Bellenger: Certainly, my right hon. Friend and I always pay attention to what the other ranks say, as well as to what the commissioned officers say.

  RAILWAY ACCIDENT, HATFIELD
  Mr. Hector Hughes(by Private Notice), asked the Minister of Transport whether he has any statement to make with regard

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  to the regrettable disaster which occurred to the King's Cross to Aberdeen express at Hatfield last night?
  The Minister of Transport (Mr. Barnes): Yes, Sir. At 7.30 p.m. last night an express passenger train from King's Cross to Aberdeen became derailed near Hatfield. The railway company's preliminary report is to the effect that the engine and all 13 coaches of the train left the rails. They will submit further information as soon as possible. In the meantime I have appointed an Inspecting Officer of Railways to hold an inquiry into this accident. and his report will be submitted to me in due course. I understand that II passengers were injured and taken to hospital, and I should like to express my sympathy with those concerned.
  Mr. Hughes: Can the Minister say anything about the extent of the injuries to the people who were injured?
  Mr. Barnes: Not at this stage, Sir.

  GENERAL MIHAILOVITCH (DEATH SENTENCE)
  Mr. Eden: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs—whom we are all glad to welcome back to the House after his exacting labours in Paris—a Question of which I have given him private notice: Whether, in view of the fact that General Mihailovitch was the first to wage guerilla warfare against the enemy, and that His Majesty's Government supported him for over two years in this struggle, they will now request the Yugoslav Government to take his services during this period into consideration, in connection with the death sentence imposed upon him.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Ernest Bevin): As the House was informed on 3rd June, His Majesty's representative in Belgrade communicated to the Yugoslav Government on 18th May evidence drawn up by five British liaison officers who served with Mihailovitch up till May, 1944, showing that, in their experience, he actively fought against the enemy. This evidence was published in the British Press, but it seems that it was not communicated to the court in Belgrade—[An HON. MEMBER: "Shame."] His Majesty's Government did not com-
  1060
  sider that they had any right to intervene further in a trial conducted according to the laws of a sovereign State. They assume that the Yugoslav Praesidium will, before confirming the death sentence, take account of all the facts that have been laid before them. I should like to take this opportunity of saying that His Majesty's Government do not accept the numerous charges, implied and direct, which have been made against British liaison officers during the course of the trial, and which have clearly been intended to show that they encouraged Mihailovitch to liquidate the partisans. No such instructions were ever sent to these officers by His Majesty's Government. On the contrary, their whole endeavour was to unite the Chetniks and the partisans, and to persuade both factions to combine against the enemy. I am willing to accept the assurances of the officers concerned that this was, in fact, the object to which they devoted their efforts, and that on no occasion did they encourage Mihailovitch to attack the partisans
  Mr. William Teeling: In view of the fact that, according to Yugoslav law, General Mihailovitch will have to be executed in 48 hours—[HON. MEMBERS: "24 hours"]—48 hours, I believe—will the right hon. Gentleman make sure that those reports which appeared in the British Press, and which, he said, did not reach the court in Yugoslavia, will, through our British Minister, reach them before the 48 hours are over?
  Mr. Bevin: I think that has been done.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Eden: May I ask the Leader of the House to tell us if there is any change in the Business for tomorrow?
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Yes, Sir. In addition to the Business announced for consideration tomorrow, Wednesday, we shall ask the House to consider the Burma (Governor's Leave and Travelling Allowances) Order; the Burma Monetary Arrangements Order, and the Government of Burma (House of Representatives) (Amendment) Order. We also hope that there will be an opportunity to complete the Committee stage of the Diplomatic Privileges (Extension) Bill [Lords

HOUSE OF COMMONS (DIVISION CALLS)
Mr. Bowles: May I call your attention, Mr. Speaker, to Division 245 which was taken at 7.25 p.m. on 11th July? This Division was called, and it in fact took place. I was in the Chamber, and so were a large number of other Members. I understand from many Members that immediately after the second call certain Members left the Chamber, arid that the view was expressed and carried through the corridors into the Library, and to the Committee corridors upstairs, that the Division was off. I have been asked to draw your attention to this fact. Certain hon. Members seem to have the idea that the bells ring twice—once for the first call to a Division, and then for the second call. In point of fact the bells ring four times for 23 seconds each, with about four seconds interval, and therefore the bells have ceased finally to ring before the second call which takes place two minutes after the first call. Certain Members were deceived not only because the view was going about that the Division was off, but because the hell had ceased to ring. I dare say the counsel of perfection is that every Member should make up his own mind and assure himself whether a Division is off or not, but we know from experience that it is almost impossible for.a Member to do this if he is at the other end of the building, and hearing the "Off" cry, he naturally thinks that the Division is off. Although it may he thought by some Members that your powers, Mr. Speaker, do not extend outside this Chamber, I am perfectly certain that if I held back the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) by force and pre-
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vented him from voting against, say, Bretton Woods, he and you, Sir, would have had something to say about it.
I do not say that this action was calculated, but it did in fact happen, and I am wondering whether you, Sir, can give any indication to the House as to your views on the matter.
Mr. Speaker: I can only say that I can remember very often in the past somebody thinking a Division would be off, saying "I expect it will be off," and then someone saving "Division off" and Members going out and saying "Division off." That can easily happen, and I can remember Members going out of the Chamber, and wiser Members coming in to see whether the Division was off or not. I am sure that no Member would deliberately try to prevent people from voting by going out of the Chamber saying "Division off," and I am sure that all hon. Members would be entirely against that. If there is any doubt, watch the policeman. If the policeman says "Division off," he is the authority, as well as for calling out "Division." If the policeman says "Division off" and the Division is not off, I suppose I should get into trouble. I think that is the answer to the hon. Member.
Mr. George Porter: In view of the statement you have made, Mr. Speaker, in regard to the authority who protects Members, namely, the policeman, are you aware that during one of the all-night Sittings, the policeman said "Who goes home?" and a number of Members left the House in consequence?
Mr. Speaker: I am afraid I am not aware of that. After all, it was a Committee stage, when I was not there.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [17TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]

CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1946
  CLASS IV

    BROADCASTING
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a sum, not exceeding £3,750,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1947, for a grant in aid of the British Broadcasting Corporation.''—[Note.— £ 3,750,000 has been voted on account.]

BROADCASTING
The Chairman: May I say that a great number of hon. Members desire to speak in this Debate and it would considerably help the Chair, and also other hon. Members, if those who are fortunate enough to catch my eye would compress their remarks as much as possible? I think that would be a help to the Committee.
3.54 p.m.
Mr. Henderson Stewart: Whatever views one may take about broadcasting policy, I think that it is agreed everywhere that it is a subject of first-class national importance, which ought to be discussed by this House. I think that would be true at any time; it is especially true today, when, as we know, the Charter of the B.B.C. is within a few months of coming to its close. Already the whole Press of the country and a large number of hon. Members of this House have shown a deep interest in this matter. I am not aware of any special efforts having been made to obtain support for the Motion put upon the Order Paper recently by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), but I observe that it has now 211 names attached to it. [That the question of the renewal, with or without amendment, of the Charter of the British Broadcasting Corporation be referred to a Joint Select Committee of both Houses.] We know that the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council is not
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particularly impressed by that type of demonstration, nevertheless it is an important fact that about one-third of the membership of this House has signified a desire for a full-dress inquiry into the working of the broadcasting system before the Charter ends. My hon. Friends and I share that view, and I want to say something to indicate the reasons why we support it.
I want first, however, to pay tribute, as I am sure we all do, to the B.B.C. itself, and particularly to its staff. Like many other hon. Members, I have had contact, in one way or another, with the B.B.C., almost since its inception. A very long time ago, I was put up for a job with the B.B.C., and I reached as far as the august presence of Lord Reith himself, but I failed to convince him that I would make a competent director of his Aberdeen Station. No doubt Lord Reith was right, and I am profoundly grateful that he decided as he did. Had I passed his stern test I should not be here today, pleading the cause of freedom, and that would have been a pity. For the staff of the B.B.C. itself, particularly its higher executives, I must profess the most profound admiration. Their standards of justice, fair play and loyalty to the service are, I think, beyond praise. When I think of their behaviour during the war, when their machine was disorganised, their office was bombed, their staff and materials cut in all directions, then I say, frankly, that I stand amazed at the brilliance of their achievements. Nor are we in this Committee or in the country at large alone in our appreciation of that wartime achievement. The voice of the B.B.C. mercifully rang out far beyond our shores during those years of struggle, and brought comfort and strength to millions of suffering men and women in all parts of Europe and beyond. For a long time, it was the only clear and clean voice on the air of Europe. We have the testimony of the French, the Belgians, the Dutch, the Poles and others that this voice alone saved their countries from degradation and despair. The story of "The B.B.C. at war" ought to be written by the finest historian in our land, because it is a story of great courage, endurance and loyalty probably unsurpassed in the whole field of world affairs.
I do not need to emphasise the unique influence which broadcasting exercises in

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the modern world, particularly in countries like ours with world-wide connections. Long before the war that influence had become apparent. During the war, it became, at times, of paramount importance, both for good and evil. In the years ahead, when technical improvement may well revolutionise the service, it may become the most powerful single instrument in the formation of public opinion. That is a solemn and sobering thought, and I say if there is one subject that Parliament ought to discuss, surely it is this one. For we are dealing here with an agency of the mind, which, potentially at least, can ennoble or utterly destroy the social life of mankind. Wisely developed, I believe that broadcasting can bring joy, culture, comfort—abiding comfort—to the homes of the people. Misused, it may throw man back into the abyss of ignorance, hatred and despair. It was doing so two years ago to millions of men not many miles from where we meet now. Do not let us forget that. On the contrary, let us study it and ponder its implications—while the memory of these events is still searing our minds.
The system on which broadcasting operates varies in almost every country in the world. In our country it is based on a Royal Charter granted through Parliament by the King. The essence of that Charter is that broadcasting is operated by a single monopoly within Great Britain, subject to certain specified, and a good many unspecified, controls by the central Government. I think that, in the early stages of the B.B.C., monopoly was inevitable and right; and up to the outbreak of war, it worked fairly well. Even then, however, 9 or 10 years ago, men were beginning to express doubts as to the wisdom of continuing a service which precluded all competition in any form of broadcasting, and tended, therefore, to invest the programmes of the B.B.C. with an increasing degree of dullness.
In the years before the war, and particularly during the war, another defect in the system displayed itself, namely, the dangerous potentialities inherent in a monopoly service ultimately at the disposal of the Government. The present Prime Minister was one of the first to note that when a member of the Ullswater Committee in 1935. He wrote a reservation to the report. He was referring to the Government's powers over the B.B.C.
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in a state of emergency, and this is what he said:
" There is a point where it is difficult to decide where the emergency is that of the State, or of the Government an represented by the political party in power"
No one is going to deny the seriousness of that estimate, least of all, I fancy, the Prime Minister today.
Now that the war is over that doubt and others have found renewed expression, an expression which is infinitely more vigorous. What were doubts and fears in 1939 are now actual realities, as a result of six years of war. I do not think I exaggerate when I say that men in all countries, and particularly in ours, are uneasy about the future of broadcasting. I should have thought that the Government, fortified and informed by its famous mandate—that Noah's Ark from which so many strange and wonderful things continue to emerge—would have sensed that uneasiness. Yet as recently as 19th February they were so oblivious of it that they declared their unwillingness to have any sort of inquiry before the present Charter was renewed. It is true that the Prime Minister did not say so, in so many words, but I think we all drew the deduction from his statement that the renewal of the Charter would be for the normal span of years, and that no investigation was to be considered during the whole of that long period.
The Committee will recall the immediate reaction of public opinion to that statement. Almost every newspaper, and particularly the newspapers of the Left, condemned the decision, and there began an insistent and increasing call for a full investigation at the earliest possible moment. True to form—their hand-to-mouth policy—the Government altered their policy under the pressure of public opinion, and produced the White Paper proposing an extension of the Charter for five years and not ten, and promising to consider a public inquiry before the end of that period. That was not a very substantial concession; it was certainly a retreat for the Government and a step in the right direction. I want to say at once to the Government that concession is really not enough. I ask—and I feel sure that in this matter I am speaking for the great mass of opinion outside this House—for a definite undertaking today that a Joint Select Committee of both Houses or some alternative but equally authorita-

1067
tive body shall be appointed without delay to inquire into the whole problem of broadcasting, and particularly the system under which it works.
With great respect, I think it is quite childish to argue, as the White Paper does, that because the last Charter was granted 1935 or 1936, there have been only a few years of peace in which to see it operate. That is merely quibbling with the subject. The Government must know as well as the rest of us that the essential feature of the present system, the monopoly, has remained practically unaltered since 1926. The Uliswater Committee in 1939 scarcely looked at the issue at all. Lord Elton, who was a member of it, told us that it examined every question except the fundamental question of the Government monopoly of broadcasting. Therefore, in fact, we have had over 20 years, 14 of them in peace, in which to study the monopoly system, and I should have thought that that was long enough even for this Government, certainly long enough for a committee of reasonable men, after inquiry, to reach conclusions.
I must say I am not any more impressed by the other excuse for delay mentioned in the White Paper, namely, the shortage of wavelengths. Like the shortage of houses there is an easy solution—make more of them. [Laughter.] I invite hon. Members opposite who are laughing to read what Mr. Eckersley says. He should know and today he says that it can be done. [HON. MEMBERS: "How?"] If the Government approached this problem as a military operation, as they say they are approaching the housing problem, I do not see why they should not provide within the next two or three years the squadrons of frequency modulation stations, the miles of relay cable and other apparatus which I gather are required to meet the demands of an exasperated people. I repeat, if the Government have any doubt about how to do it, let them consult Mr. Eckersley, who is very plain about the whole subject in "The Times" today.
Apart from that, surely it could not possibly be to the advantage of the B.B.C. that it should be given another span of life for five years, during the whole of which a sword of Damocles in the form of an inquiry would hang over its head. How could that be to the good? Is it to
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be imagined for one moment that that is the right way to encourage initiative and bring about a sense of security? Any one who has the least contact with the B.B.C. knows how susceptible it is to the movement of public opinion, I think it is excessively so. I have never known a public body so easily put in the jitters by pressure groups of one kind or the other. You may be sure if it continues under that pressure, and if it remains uncertain about its future for another five years, the advance which everybody desires will be inevitably held up, and as a consequence there will be a deterioration in the service, irritation on the part of the public and, what is most important of all, a loss of prestige to our nation.
It is quite true, as I expect some one will say, that the Coalition Government, looking at the future as it saw it, then, came to the conclusion that the Charter should be extended without inquiry. But that was a decision reached in the midst of a war when the end of that war was not in sight, when in any case Cabinet Ministers were concentrating their whole attention upon fighting a dreadful enemy. The situation today is surely entirely different. Our thoughts are no longer canalised in war. They have broken their wartime bonds; they are now moving freely over the whole broad realm of peace. The outstanding men and women who could undertake such an inquiry are now available. The mind of the public is turned in this direction. I see no good reason at all, not even a technical reason, for postponing inquiry by another day. If there is any doubt about that, I invite the Government to consult another expert on these matters. Mr. Arthur Mann, who also writes in the Press this morning.
I realise that in a matter of this kind an inquiry, to be adequate, may be a lengthy process. It must be adequate. I conceive the inquiry directed not only to conditions in this country, but searching out comparable conditions in other parts of the world, so that we may get a full picture of the situation. Such an inquiry may well take 18 months—I do not know—and might therefore require a temporary extension of the Charter. If that were necessary, I should be ready to agree to such an extension until, say, 1948. I was talking to a great authority on broadcasting, who suggested to me that the limit should be December, 1949, for the reason that, by

1069
that time, the agreement with the wired wireless companies will be due to expire: and wired wireless will play a tremendously powerful part in our broadcasting services in future. For my own part, I should have thought that if an inquiry were to be set afoot now it could be easily completed, its recommendations considered by the Government and Parliament, and the requisite steps taken to alter the Charter, by the end of 1948. I fancy that most experienced persons would probably share that view.
What sort of topics need examination? Probably the most important is that of the whole technical process of broadcasting. I have sought advice from those who understand these matters, and am assured that the possibilities of development are almost unlimited. I must say I am not very much attracted by the particular development mentioned by Lord Brabazon in another place—a gadget which, if you leave your wireless on all night, will produce on a slip of paper, a summary of the news at 7 o'clock in the morning. With the news as it is today—bread rationing, rising prices arid squabbles among Foreign Ministers—I much prefer a strong cup of tea brewed on an old-fashioned gas ring. But as to other great developments, there is no doubt at all. Nor is there any secrecy about them. As Mr. Eckersley has shown today, all that engineers, scientists and chemists need to forge ahead in all branches of broadcasting, including television, is sufficient capital funds and equipment. I think it will be an unpardonable act of folly on the part of the Government to delay an inquiry into these matters; it may be a delay for which we shall pay dearly in the years to come.
In the realm of programmes also I feel that there is a burning need for an inquiry. It is not enough to say, "The B.B.C. cannot pay, at present, adequate fees to attract first class artists, so we will double the licence fee to the public and let the B.B.C. get on with it." I understand that the decision to double the licence fee was taken by the Government without any public inquiry whatsoever as to its effect. It is exactly the way in which the Cabinet settled the future of the Ministry of Information, of overseas broadcasts and of the British Council. It was all done by the Cabinet behind the scenes, without
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one attempt being made to interest and secure public opinion in the matter. All these propaganda services are of the most profound importance to this country at present, and may well be of greater importance in days to come. Yet the Cabinet decides them entirely by itself. That is no doubt "the Morrison way" of doing things, but it is not the British way, not the democratic way of conducting these great affairs——
Mr. Blackburn: Can the hon. Gentleman say what past Cabinets have been in the habit of conducting surveys of public opinion before coming to decisions?
Mr. Stewart: In the past they have not had quite analogous topics to discuss, and in any case I am not so much concerned about the past as the future. If hon. Members opposite want to go into the past I am prepared to do so, but I should have thought that the so-called vigorous party behind the Government was out to consider the future. I say that these great organisms of propaganda, putting forward the British way of life to the world, are organisms in the creation of which the whole force of public opinion ought to have been engaged.
Especially is it true that we should have inquiry into the case of overseas broadcasts. During the war, British wireless propaganda, as we know, built up for this country amazing good will in all parts of Europe and the Middle East. It was a priceless asset, such as we have never before enjoyed. It was an asset which, in a tormented, disillusioned, world we should have striven with all our might to preserve. Instead of that, we appear largely to have thrown that great asset away. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is here, and I know he will correct me if what I am about to say is wrong. On the false grounds of economy, based, as usual, on ill-informed Government decisions, overseas broadcast services have been carved, cut and rehashed so that neither system nor success now attaches to them. I am told that incredible things are happening. If I am wrong, I will gladly sit down and be corrected.
I am told, for instance, that instead of each foreign country having, as it did during the war, an expert division to itself in Broadcasting House, Europe has

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now been divided into geographical areas, which bear little or no relation to the political realities of the situation. Each area is handled by a reduced, and not always expert, staff. For instance, Yugoslavia, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, Rumania and Russia are in one group, under a director who cannot speak Russian. and who cannot, therefore, hope to be able to understand the extremely difficult problems of the Russian people. I am told that Italy, Spain and Portugal are lumped together in another group. Italy is working her passage. Spain is still under the control of Franco. Yet both are run by the same little group of propagandists. Strangest of all, Germany and Austria are operated by one group. I know that Members opposite are as much concerned as I am about this, and hope that a satisfactory reply will be forthcoming from the Government. It is a prime part of the Government's foreign policy that Germany and Austria shall be regarded as separate units, to be approached in a different way and dealt with in a different manner. Yet our overseas broadcast system caters for both by the same division.
I am told, too, that the carefully prepared system of checks of our broadcasts which, during the war, gave them their reputation for accuracy and tact, has been largely swept away, and that nothing effective has been put in their place, either at the Foreign Office, the B.B.C. or the new Central Office of Information. I wonder whether the Government are aware of those shortcomings in this vital sphere of European goodwill creation. Can they seriously contend that an inquiry into these subjects is not urgent and necessary? It is no use saying that these things should be left to the Governors, Their status and functions are as much in need of an examination as anything else. It is common talk that the Governors never see any of the staff at Broadcasting House, except the Director-General and his deputy at their weekly meetings. The result is that they cannot possibly understand the work that the staff are doing. I am not criticising the Governors. I feel sure they would like to make those contacts; it is the system under which they labour that I condemn. Is this really the best kind of system? Does it give
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the best kind of results? I suggest that there ought to be a re-examination before the Charter is extended for am, lengthy period.
But it is into the nature of the monopoly itself, out of which all these other defects spring, that I think a penetrating inquiry is most strongly required today. According to the White Paper, the Government are satisfied that the present system of broadcasting is the one best suited to the circumstances of the United Kingdom. Undoubtedly, as Sir Frederick Ogilvie has said, from the point of view of the Government, it is an ideal system. No competition in programmes or engineering to offer troublesome comparisons; not too much news about what happens inside the machine; a polite authoritative rule giving the people what it thinks they ought to have; an arrangement whereby the B.B.C. do not trouble the Government too much, and take orders from them when necessary. It is a good system for the Government! But the question we have to ask ourselves is whether it is the ideal system for the people, our people, with their highly individualist and democratic character. The things of the body, such as food, clothes, fuel and light are controlled, and probably will be controlled for a lengthy period; and it is for that very reason that I plead that the things of the spirit shall enjoy the fullest freedom we can give them.
The right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council has one of the most astute minds in the country, but I confess I cannot follow his logic. There is all-round opposition, in which he takes a leading part, to the creation of monopolies in films, newspapers, and so on. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he was President of the Board of Trade, took very strong action, which I approved at the time, to prevent the film industry from getting into the hands of a single control. In regard to the Press, 100 hon. Members opposite have declared their objection to the extension of monopoly in the production and circulation of newspapers. I agree with that, too.
Mr. Blackburn: Has the hon. Gentleman signed the Motion?
Mr. Stewart: I sign Liberal and not Socialist Motions.
Mr. Leslie Hale: Is the hon. Gentleman laying down the ethical principle that, although he agrees with a thing, merely because it is propounded by a party which he does not support, he will refuse to support it?
Mr. Stewart: I will invite the hon. Gentleman to sign a Motion that we will put down very soon. I put seriously to the right hon. Gentleman the following question: If it is right to curtail monopoly in films and the Press, surely it must be equally right in the sphere of broadcasting, which now, and certainly in the future, may become the most powerful influence in moulding public thought? I claim the support of the Government and its friends on the Back Benches in asking for a re-examination of the B.B.C. Charter. Let them consider the testimony of one of their own colleague who speaks with Ministerial.experience in this matter—the hon. Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle). What did he say about it the other day? He said:
" The B.B.C. is supreme, absolute, brooking no rival. It is the real Sir Oracle. When it opens its lips, no dog may bark. Right into the people's homes it goes, unchecked by competitors—a dream weapon for the totalitarian, and fatal to freedom of thought."
The whole position of Britain in the radio field is at stake. Here is one of the great means of national and international communication, and hence, one of the great sources of power. Is anyone outside Downing Street satisfied that we enjoy that power today? The standard of a nation's broadcasting service affects not only the people within the borders of that nation. Its influence for good and ill goes far beyond into the world. If the standard is high and the service vigorous, the whole world knows it and notes it. If it is mediocre, limited, starved of real talent, the name and fame of the nation suffers. Surely, nobody seriously suggests that if, instead of one, we had two, three or four independent broadcasting corporations or organisations in this country, each vying with, competing with, challenging the others in engineering, technical production, and programmes, the standard of broadcasting in this country would not improve? The establishment of these separate organisations need not have anything whatever to do with commercial broadcasting.
There is no doubt where Welshmen and Scotsmen stand in this matter. In a re-
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cent Debate in the House, hon. Members of all parties, Welsh and Scottish, demanded the establishment in their respective countries of independent broadcasting corporations. No doubt Englishmen would desire the same thing.
I would like to say just a word about commercial broadcasting. I have never advocated commercial broadcasting, and I do not advocate it today, but I am bound to say that, after considering the arguments that can be put forward in support of it now, in 1946, I feel it is worthy of re-examination. I think we take a complete insular and inexcusable view of our responsibilities if we say that, merely because the Sykes Committee turned it down 20 years ago as a nasty piece of work, therefore commercial broadcasting ought to be turned down today. This country, in its international setting, is in a very difficult condition. We cannot afford to throw away an instrument of such potential power as this might give us in toe cultural field, in politics, art, science and trade. Can we afford to turn down so great a proposition? I ask that that alternative method shall be considered with others, by a committee of inquiry.
Now I must refer to the Lord President's very strange and sometimes conflicting statements about foreign stations. There are some things we could do now. I would not propose to rush into advertising at once, but one thing we could do at this moment would be to stop the right hon. Gentleman messing about with British reception of foreign stations. It is difficult to know what the right hon. Gentleman means. [Interruption.] I invite the right hon. Gentleman to tell us exactly what he means. The other day there was a series of questions in the House. The right hon. Member for Woodford did his best, by cross questioning, to elucidate the matter, but the House was completely baffled. The Lord President of the Council has an opportunity now to tell us exactly what he means. I recollect that on 25th June he was emphatic enough to say that the Government intended to do everything they could to prevent commercial broadcasting to this country from abroad. In another statement, he said that the Government did not regard it as desirable that we should be inflicted with these foreign broadcasts. What impertinence that is. What right has the Lord President of the Council to decide what

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is desirable in the realm of news and opinions for this free country?
Quite apart from his right to express opinions on these matters, surely it is the policy of the ostrich that he is following. I do not know if the right hon. Gentleman proposes to ask all foreign stations to play with him. Does he intend to ask America, for example, to stop commercial advertising, or Russia to change her policy? As we know, there was once a famous king who tried to stop the waves of the sea; he came to a rather messy end. The right hon. Gentleman should be careful in trying to stop the waves of the ether because that might lead to a much more drastic death. It simply cannot be done. This thing is moving at such a rate that no power can stop it, and I am very surprised that the right hon. Gentleman should have made that statement. Today, we must have from him a clear statement as to exactly what he intends to do and how he proposes to do it.
Let me try to summarise the views which I hold and which, I fancy, the whole Committee holds on this matter. Although we twit each other in this Chamber the truth is that we all recognise the immense importance of this service to the nation. I think myself that the Committee would be ready to approach the problem in a united spirit, and for my part I should desire nothing better. In the concluding words of the Report of the Ullswater Committee, I find what I consider to be the best summary of the matter:
"We are impressed by the influence of broadcasting on the mind and spirit of the nation, by the immense issues which are consequently involved, and by the necessity that broadcasting services should at all times be conducted in the best possible manner and to the best advantage of the people."
I invite the Lord President to inform us in what manner His Majesty's Government propose to attain these high objectives.
Mr. Hector Hughes: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down may I ask him a question? He failed to answer the question put to him by the hon. Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn) and I put to him this very limited one: Can he cite a single precedent, even in the limited field of broadcasting, for the course which he has advocated here today?
Mr. Stewart: Which course does the hon. and learned Gentleman mean?
Mr. Hughes: I understand that the hon. Gentleman is arguing in favour of a survey of public opinion before the B.B.C. Charter is renewed. Can he cite a single precedent for that?
Mr. Stewart: No, the hon. and learned Gentleman is under a misapprehension. I want a public inquiry; that is what I meant by a survey of public opinion.
4.34 p.m.
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): It has not perhaps been as great a pleasure to listen to the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Stewart) this afternoon as it is, in my opinion, to listen to his periodical contributions to "The Week in Westminster" series through the British Broadcasting Corporation. He has pleased the House by a. speech which has been delivered in a reasonable spirit, although I think some of his arguments are misplaced, and we have listened to him with pleasure. If I may say so, I always hear his contribution to "The Week in Westminster" series with pleasure as I do to those of other hon. Members of this House whenever it is possible for me to listen to that very good feature of the B.B.C. I am bound to say that I could not quite follow the logic of some of the observations of the hon. Gentleman. He said that he thought that up to the outbreak of war the British broadcasting monopoly was right, but he went on to say that he had become increasingly doubtful about it. It worked very well and he was not complaining about it in principle up to the war, but he went on to say that the organisation was such that there was a tendency for it to be based rather on the doctrine of giving the people what is regarded as being good for them, and that the organisation was far too much under the thumb and the orders of the Government.
I do not think those things are true; certainly it is not true that the B.B.C. is under the thumb and orders of the Government, as I will explain in the course of my observations. In the course of his speech, having said one thing and later something else, as I have pointed out, the hon. Gentleman also said that the B.B.C. was very susceptible to public opinion—indeed he thought if

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was too susceptible. I think there is some truth in what he said, but it is hardly consistent with the argument that this terrible monopoly is ladling out to the people what is good for them, and is under the orders of His Majesty's Government at all times. I think that those two trends of argument were inconsistent.
I will come in due course to the statement of the Prime Minister on r9th February, but meanwhile I would only say that the hon. Gentleman is wrong when he says that at the time when the Prime Minister made this statement, there was an immediate outcry. I will come back to that shortly. The hon. Gentleman argued that we should make more wavelengths and thus solve our problem. If he is thinking of frequency modulation I will refer to that also during my observations, but there are certain complications that do not make it easy to produce straight away, or even in a short time, for the solution of our problems. I was surprised that he argued that a whole string of decisions of the Government, including the question of abolishing the Ministry of Information, should have been preceded by public inquiry. If every decision of the Government were to be preceded by a public inquiry, or a number of them, it would not be long before the Opposition were accusing us of being incapable of making up our own minds and complaining at the laying of some more of those annoying White Papers about which complaints are made from time to time. It seems to me that there are matters in which it is right that public inquiries—or at least inquiries—should take place, but in the ordinary course of government, Governments must reach their decisions and report them to Parliament, taking such chastisement or approval from Parliament as may be forthcoming. I think it would be inconsistent with decision and reasonable speed in government, if there were too many inquiries, and we should soon be criticised on the matter.
The subject with which we are dealing is a big one, and the Committee will expect me to make a fairly comprehensive statement of Government policy. In the course of my observations, which will thus necessarily cover a fair amount of ground, I will pick up and refer to other points raised by the hon. Gentleman in his interesting speech. I am sure he will forgive me if I do not pursue them imme-
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diately because I think that at any rate the great bulk of the points he raised will be dealt with in the course of my remarks.
The British Broadcasting Corporation is, as the hon. Gentleman has said, an exceptional and interesting institution. It is, I think, a most interesting example of the British national genius for finding workable solutions to the most intractable problems. At the same time, it is an outstanding achievement in socialisation—because it is a socialised institution for which the nation has to thank successive Conservative Governments,plus some mental stimulation from the Labour Party. Broadcasting, I agree, is at least as powerful a vehicle of ideas as the printing press. In broadcasting, however, the public's choice of listening matter is very narrowly limited by the number of wavelengths available. Clearly, therefore, the body which decides what goes into a broadcasting programme has an enormous power for good and evil over the minds of the nation, and that power must not fall into the wrong hands. I think that we are all agreed that this is the fundamental problem: To ensure that the microphone is controlled by some body in which the public can have confidence.
The solution which this country has decided upon is the solution known as the public corporation, in this case the British Broadcasting Corporation, which itself was the child of two committees of inquiry, both set up by Conservative Governments. They were the Sykes Committee of 1923 and the Crawford Committee of 1925. Both those Committees strongly recommended that the control of broadcasting should be vested in the State. Let us see how this solution, which we British have adopted, works. In the first place, the fact that the B.B.C. is a public corporation, charged, in the words of the original Charter, with the duty of acting as the trustee for the nation—which is the duty of the Governors of the B.B.C.—prevents broadcasting falling into the hands of private or sectional interests who might use it for their own private ends. So far, so good; but the elimination of private or commercial interests would not of itself guarantee impartial control of broadcasting because, party government being what it is, there is the strongest possible incentive not only to the party in power but to its rivals, to use every possible means of expression to bring its views before the public.

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So, we have evolved a system which guards the Government in power from a temptation which they might find irresistible, if the B.B.C. was under direct Government control. Nominally, the Government's powers of dictation over the Corporation are, as the hon. Gentleman has said—although I think he made it rather over-realistic—absolute. That is as it should be up to this point, because the Corporation must in some way be ultimately responsible to Parliament for its actions. Parliament is the best check on the improper use of the B.B.C., either by the Government or by the Governors of the B.B.C. themselves. In practice, there is a clear understanding that the Government will not use their powers as long as the Corporation does not misconduct itself. That doctrine was frequently, and with great vigour, asserted from this Box by the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken), who was at that time Minister of Information. In practice, the Governors are guarded against being unduly influenced either by private interests or by the party in power, or by any other party, to allow the microphone to be used for particular or sectional interests. Finally, just to make sure that the Governors do not abuse their own trust, the Corporation is specifically prohibited from expressing its own opinions on the air. It is important to remember that the prohibition that the B.B.C. is not allowed to have opinions, or to express them on the air, distinguishes it very much in character from the newspaper Press.
Mr. Brendan Bracken: Does the right hon. Gentleman regret it?
Mr. Morrison: I have noticed an increasing display of political opinions in the "Financial Times"—which is perfectly justifiable. But it would be wrong that the B.B.C. itself should have a political policy, or should promulgate its own opinions, if it has any. The Committee will see, therefore, what an important function the Governors of the B.B.C. have to discharge and to perform. It is important that they should not underestimate their authority over the Director-General and the staff of the Corporation, who are wholly responsible to them for their actions. I have heard the theory advanced that the set-up of the B.B.C. provides that the Director
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General runs the undertaking and that the Governors act as a kind of consultative body. I have never been a Governor of the B.B.C. so I cannot speak from inside knowledge. [An HON. MEMBER: "Who said it?"] I have heard it frequently, but it is wrong doctrine. The Governors are the B.B.C. They are responsible for its working, and the Director-General and his staff are subject to their orders and directions, which the Governors are free to pass. If there has been a misunderstanding in the minds of some people about it, I hope that that statement will put it right. just as the B.B.C. is independent of the Government in its day to day affairs, so also are the Government independent of the B.B.C. Ministers are free to comment critically on the B.B.C., if they think criticism warranted, and they reserve the right to do so. Just as the B.B.C. need not walk in fear and trembling of the Government, neither should they submit to pressure from the Opposition or from famous personalities or interests; so the Government have the right to fair play from the Governors of the B.B.C. and so have the Government's critics.
I want here to pay a brief tribute to the achievements of the Corporation and of the company which preceded it. The country was, indeed, fortunate, in my view, that for more than 16 years British broadcasting had the benefit of the quality and the wisdom, even if they were at times accompanied by the alleged prejudices, of Lord Reith. I am sure that the Committee will agree with me when I say that it is to him more than to any other man that we owe the enviable reputation which British broadcasting has built up throughout the world. That tribute is due to Lord Reith. I have not time today to do proper justice to the outstanding part which the B.B.C., and those who worked with it on the Government side, played in winning the war. Some men now sitting in this House played a very competent and able part in this respect. Both in their technical achievements and in the skill which they used, as well as for the powerful weapon which they created, the nation owes them a great and lasting debt of gratitude. I want to join with the hon. Member who opened the Debate in the tribute which he so generously and rightly paid.
The hon. Member referred to a Motion on the Order Paper demanding the

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appointment of a Joint Select Committee to inquire into the B.B.C This Motion is in the names of a formidable number of leading Members of the party opposite and others. The names to the Motion are quite a formidable coalition in themselves. Rightly, the hon. Gentleman expects me to deal with the request which has not only been made in this House but which has been commented on by newspapers of varying political opinions. I must confess that the appearance of this Motion on the Order Paper was a matter of some surprise to the Government, because many of those subscribing to it were Members of the Coalition and "Caretaker" Governments, and must have known at that time that the future of the B.B.C. was being carefully examined by Ministers. Everybody knew that the Corporation's Charter would come up for renewal at the end of this year and it would have been quite easy to ascertain that on the last occasion on which such an investigation was made into the B.B.C. a period of 14 months elapsed between the appointment of the Committee, in April, 1935, and the announcement of the Government's decision in June, 1936. One would have thought that if hon. Gentlemen opposite were so concerned on holding an inquiry before the Charter was renewed, they would have taken the necessary steps to make their views known before now.
This really is a sad case of too little and too late. Why was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) so slothful as the responsible Minister in the Coalition Government in not seeing to this inquiry which he and his friends now want all of a hurry and at this very late stage?
Mr. Bracken: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean when we were in office?
Mr. Morrison: When we were all in together.
Mr. Bracken: As the right hon. Gentleman makes that assertion, let me tell him that were it not for the interference of the General Election I imagine that a committee of inquiry would now be sitting on the B.B.C. It certainly was clearly the intention of the "Caretaker" Government and, I think, of its predecessor to grant an inquiry into the B.B.C. In fact, let me tell the Lord President-that we expected as a matter of course to
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have a committee of inquiry set up in the same way as the Ullswater Committee was set up.
Mr. Morrison: The right hon. Gentleman is in danger of trouble and I am in danger of trouble if I dare to follow him, for if we are not careful we shall both reveal Cabinet secrets and we cannot do that without authority. However, I challenge entirely his assertion that either of those Governments had decided in principle that there should be an outside inquiry, and if the matter is to be pursued and the necessary authority given, I could indeed reveal the facts and tell a very good story on the matter. I merely tell a very convincing one. I merely confine myself to the publicly known fact that the right hon. Gentleman was Minister of Information in the Coalition Government and that there was another Minister in the "Caretaker" Government, and the fact is that neither of these Governments, who had the matter under consideration for a long time—that is not a secret either, because it was revealed in this House—ever came to a conclusion about it or did anything about it. Yet, we are now expected all of a sudden to appoint a committee of inquiry when there is obviously riot sufficient time between now and 31st December.
Mr. Henderson Stewart: I spoke on that point, but I was not in the Coalition Government and not in the least responsible for it. A decision was taken then in the midst of war. Now we are in the midst of peace. The conditions are now entirely different.
Mr. Morrison: That will not do either. I tell the hon. Gentleman that this was—. indeed the Parliamentary records show it—under consideration a long time before the Coalition Government went out of office. If it is said they could not appoint a committee, the Coalition Government appointed no end of committees, and another little committee would not have done them any harm. Here is a right hon. Member who is responsible for an inquiry not taking place—unless he wishes to put the blame on the colleague who succeeded him at the Ministry of Information during the short period of the "Caretaker" Government, which, being a fair-minded person, I do not feel too much inclined to do. There were, it is true, one or two attempts—notably by

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the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Granville)—to get such an inquiry set on foot during the Coalition Government, but those efforts met with no welcome from the right hon. Gentleman the present Leader of the Opposition, whose name heads this notice of Motion now before the House. On most occasions the answer to questions of this sort was that the Government were considering the future of the B.B.C., but on 4th May, 1943, when asked by the hon. Member for Eye whether he would consider setting up a Royal Commission or a Select Committee to consider the future position of the B.B.C., the status of the Governors and how best the rights of democracy could be safeguarded, the answer of the right hon. Gentleman, then Prime Minister, was brief and to the point. The answer was:
'' No, Sir.''— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th May. 1943, Vol. 389; col. 32.]
An hon. Member: It usually was.
Mr. Morrison: An hon. Member says it usually was, but the matter was under consideration and that was the answer. It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition—I could give some more answers of his; he was not even anxious for a Debate on the subject—now that he is out of office to switch clean round and head this Motion on the Paper. History knocks him clean out of the ring, and he ought to take his name off the Motion but I do not suppose for a moment that he will.
When the present Government assumed office, we got down without delay, and with that expedition for which we are famous, to considering this question among others connected with the B.B.C.'s future, and as early as 19th February last the Prime Minister informed the House that the Government had decided that on this occasion no independent inquiry should be held Surely that was the proper time for the matter to be pressed by those who disagree with the Government's decision. Yet the Prime Minister's announcement caused hardly a murmur of complaint, either in Parliament or in the Press. It was not until quite a time afterwards that this Motion was put down, and I am therefore at a loss to understand why at this late stage there should he this sudden outburst of enthusiasm for the appointment of a Joint Select Committee.
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Nevertheless, I must make it absolutely clear in all quarters of the House that the Government do not object in principle to subjecting the B.B.C. from time to time to a searching inquiry by an independent body. All great channels for the dissemination of information to the public would, the Government believe, benefit from having their state of health examined by an independent inquiry from time to time, and we do not exclude the Press from that consideration. In the interests of the health and the very freedom of the Press which is vital to our constitutional liberties, we do not exclude the Press in principle from that consideration, for it itself, as it has every right to do, has vigorously demanded an inquiry into the B.B.C., and the National Union of Journalists—who certainly believe in the freedom of the Press, as I do—have demanded in the interest of the freedom of the Press a somewhat similar inquiry into various matters connected with modern monopolistic or chain or group newspaper organisations in this country. I may add incidentally—I am making no pronouncement on the point about a Government decision; I am only saying it is worth consideration—that the Governors of the B.B.C.——
Mr. Bracken: Could the right hon. Gentleman explain himself? He has just declared that he thinks it is a thoroughly healthy thing to have an inquiry into the state of health of the Press. Speaking as the Lord President of the Council, he cannot be expressing a personal opinion. That was a declaration of Government policy, was it not?
Mr. Morrison: As far as I have gone it is an expression of Government policy, but no Government decision.
Mr. Piekthorn: On a point of Order. Does this mean that on this Vote it would be competent for the Committee to discuss whether it would or would not be a good thing to have an inquiry into the Press?
The Chairman: Certainly not in detail. I understand the right hon. Gentleman was merely mentioning the subject in passing.
Mr. Beverley Baxter: We are listening with most unusual fascination to what the right hon. Gentleman has said about this decision which he has

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taken, because it is a decision. He has now given full support to the hon. Members opposite who are asking for an inquiry into the Press. Is this a personal decision, or does it represent the Cabinet?
Mr. Morrison: What I have said is just that we think there is a case for the view that many hon. Gentlemen have expressed, and a case which should be considered. That is as far as I go. There is no decision to institute an inquiry. What I have said represents the view not of myself alone; I have the authority of His Majesty's Government for saying what I have said.
Mr. Bracken: Including the Prime Minister?
Mr. Morrison: Yes, certainly, all the lot of them. The Press, as it has every right to do, has itself vigorously demanded an inquiry into the B.B.C. I may add incidentally that the Governors of the B.B.C. are themselves very conscious of the benefits they would derive from such an inquiry. Unless anything unforeseen happens during the next few Years——
Mr. Pickthorn: And something unforeseen will.
Mr. Morrison: Unless anything unforeseen happens, Cambridge University permitting, during the next few years, I think that the Committee can take it that an investigation either by a specially appointed committee like the Ullswater Committee, or by some other independent body, will in fact take place as soon as the international wavelength position is clearer, and we have some better idea of where the new technical developments are leading us. Certainly, I should like to see such an inquiry instituted well before the Charter comes up for renewal again in 1952 or the end of 1951—it depends on whether you go to December 3ist or January 1st, but it is five years after the end of this year.
The reasons which have led the Government to the view that the right course is to renew the Charter for five years only are set out in the White Paper. At this point I would refer to only one of them, the bearing which the forthcoming international negotiations regarding the allocation of wavelengths must have upon the future of broadcasting in our country.
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Whatever advances may be made in such new techniques as frequency modulation, it is inevitable that for several years to come the home listener must be served mainly, if not entirely, by long and medium wavelengths, and the use of these wavelengths must be determined by international agreement if chaos is not to rule in the air.
There are two distinct agreements or consultations which will have to take place and which will have to be negotiated. There must he a World Telecommunications Conference which is to settle the use of the radio spectrum as a whole for all purposes, not only for broadcasting but for ships and civil aviation and what not. We hope that twat will take place before the end of next year. When it has done so, there must be a further conference for Europe to divide up the broadcast wavelengths for broadcasting purposes. Until that second meeting is held which unfortunately cannot very well take place earlier than 1948—we shall not know which long and medium wavelengths will be ours for broadcasting. I submit to the Committee that it really is impossible for any committee of inquiry intelligently to examine the problem until we know where we are about wavelengths.
Mr. Orr-Ewing: May I ask a question?
Mr. Morrison: Certainly, but it is taking up my time.
Mr. Orr-Ewing: If we are going to this international conference, how are we to approach things unless we have our own plans made perfectly clear? Is it not the case that if we go with our plans made perfectly clear, as would be the case after an inquiry, we would be in a stronger position to argue than if we go before our plans are made?
Mr. Morrison: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government know what they want, and that the House and the country know what they want.
Mr. Orr-Ewing: Does the B.B.C.?
Mr. Morrison: Of course. It is perfectly natural that everybody associated with this business in this country wants to get all the wavelengths we can. So that point is quite simple. The problem is that of getting them by the consent of the nations with whom we must confer

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if chaos is not to rule in the air. It is this wavelength position which, to a great extent, dominates British broadcasting today, and to expect us to come to conclusions, or to expect the committee of inquiry to come to conclusions before we know where we are about that, is unreasonable, I think. Therefore, I say to the Committee that, unforeseen events excluded, there will be an inquiry as soon as these things can be cleared up and the inquiry can be intelligently proceeded with. I do not want to wait until the five years are nearly expired; it can come as soon as we like, subject to these practical considerations.
Broadly speaking, the proposal as regards the amendments to the Charter is, that for the time being the B.B.C's. constitutional status should revert to its prewar position. I think there will be only two amendments to the Charter and Licence Agreement to which I need draw attention, but they are of some importance. One is with regard to overseas broadcasting, which gives effect to the very important decision that broadcasting to overseas listeners in foreign countries should now become a regular part of the B.B.C's. duties. The White Paper contains a summary of the history of British broadcasting for overseas listeners and I will not repeat it here, but I feel that all parties will think it right that the voice of Britain on the air in the Continent of Europe should not be missing, and that the valuable work which we did in the war, to which the B.B.C. and the Ministry of Information made valuable contributions, ought not to be brought to an end. Therefore, it is proposed that it should continue.
Perhaps the Committee will expect me to explain the very British way in which we hope to reconcile the needs of foreign policy with the independence of the B.B.C. in the administration of the foreign services, and I hope that I can make it clear because it is of importance. Clearly, it would be unthinkable for Broadcasting House to be broadcasting to Europe, at the taxpayer's expense, doctrines hopelessely at variance with the foreign policy of His Majesty's Government; but for reasons which I hope will commend themselves to the Committee, it appeared to the Government to be equally undesirable that the Foreign Office should themselves become responsible for the
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foreign services. In the first place, the conduct of a broadcasting service requires a different sort of experience and imagination from the conduct of diplomacy. I am not saying that in any cynical or critical way, but it is obviously so. Secondly, broadcasting is a fulltime job. Thirdly, and most important of all, we believe that the foreign services will better retain the respect of listeners abroad and of the public at home if, like the Home Services, they are removed as far as possible from the danger of being used to push the interests of political parties instead of the nation as a whole.
So, in these circumstances, we have come to an arrangement with the B.B.C. The Corporation will accept the guidance of the Foreign Office on the nature and scope of its foreign language services, and there will be a very close liaison between the two of them, so that each side may at all times know clearly what is in the other's mind and draw freely upon the information which the other possesses. But once the general character and scope of a service has been laid down, the B.B.C. will have complete discretion as to the content of the programmes themselves. This compromise may result in some regrettable incidents if there is a temporary failure of contact between the Foreign Office and the Corporation but, unless such incidents are to be much more numerous than we have reason to expect, they will, I think, be a small price to pay for letting the responsibility for broadcasting programmes lie with those best qualified to exercise it.
The other change in the Charter of an important character that we propose to insert is a requirement, with which I think the Committee will generally agree, as to consultation with the staff. That requirement will be as near as may be on the lines of the requirement contained in the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill and the Civil Aviation Bill. I do not want the Committee to think that this requirement is being imposed by force upon a tyrannical Board of Governors in order to assert the rights of the oppressed, but the Government want to see the creation, within any large organisation—and this is a large and complicated organisation—whether public or private, of machinery that will assure to the humblest employee not only the settlement of his wages and service conditions by equal negotiation, with pro-

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vision for arbitration in the event of disagreement, but also the feeling, which is important, that he will be given a picture of his part in the present and prospective affairs of the undertaking, and that his views about the efficiency of the organisation will be considered by the management with the respect that they deserve. Only so in our view will the employee be able to make his full contribution to the successful conduct of the organisation. Only so can the management draw in full on the wide experience of the staff of all grades in their daily work.
The shaping of programme policy must, of course, be the responsibility of the Board of Governors, who are answerable to the nation for its suitability and impartiality. We, therefore, apart from these and one or two other modifications, propose to keep the constitutional status of the B.B.C. substantially as it is. We believe that the organisation is still right. But other people will take another view. There will be critics of the B.B.C., and there ought to be. I can only say, "Let the critics be heard and let notice be taken of them."
I want to mention commercial broadcasting, to which reference has already been made. Let us look at the possible alternatives to this present State monopoly, the public service, which some people profess to find so distasteful. Private enterprise in the field of broadcasting fairly inevitably, perhaps not quite certainly, means commercial broadcasting There are powerful, and not always disinterested, voices pressing the claims of commercial broadcasting in this country today and pointing to the United States system, or to the system which in some British Dominions permits commercial broadcasting services alongside those run by the State, as the models that we should adopt. It is not for us to criticise the internal broadcasting systems of other countries, but I must confess that nothing I have heard or read has convinced me that the American listener gets such consistently good entertainment as we do in this country—[An HON. MEMBER:" Much better.]— I am talking of it as a whole, and that is a personal opinion. I quite agree that others will have other opinions. Personally, I find it repugnant to hear, as I have heard, a programme of beautifully sung children's hymns punctuated by an oily voice urging me to buy somebody's pills. I cannot believe
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that it is good for the listener to hear from his wireless set what an American journalist has described as
"one long parade of headaches, coughs, aching insides, stained teeth, ' unpleasant full feeling and gastric hyperacidity"
until, like Mark Twain, I think it was—but some people tell me it was Jerome K. Jerome—after reading a medical dictionary, he believes he has all the ills that man is heir to, with the solitary exception of housemaid's knee. But I am quite prepared to admit freely that these are matters for individual judgment and opinion What is not open to dispute is that, owing to our limited resources of wavelengths, the number of commercial programmes which could be made available to listeners in this country would be very limited indeed, and the power of the owners of the transmitting stations correspondingly great. I have a feeling that to mix up commercial advertising with this business introduces into it an element of unhealthiness which would not be for the good understanding and goodness of British broadcasting, or, in the end, for its quality either.
I know that it is argued that commercial broadcasting would benefit our wireless because it would increase the money available for research and paying high fees to artistes. I have even seen it argued that commercial broadcasting is necessary in order to enable British film stars to supplement their presumably inadequate salaries on the radio and so keep them away from Hollywood. I have not the slightest sympathy with such arguments. The B.B.C. has never been short of money, and is not short of money at the moment, and any Government that did not ensure that within reason it had ample funds at its disposal for research and development would be stupidly sacrificing one of our major assets. As for artistes' fees, I believe them to be adequate to secure for the Corporation the services of anyone who is not suffering from megalomania. We should be on our guard against interests who want to see the B.B.C. unduly milked.
For all these reasons, therefore, the Government have decided to maintain in the new Charter the existing prohibition against commercial broadcasting. I may say with regard to Radio Luxembourg, which is, of course, the station I had in mind, I never said anything about jamming——
Mr. Henderson Stewart: What had the right hon. Gentleman in mind then?
Mr. Morrison: There will be time to discuss this. We will do our best not to have commercial broadcasting directed at this country. It is not in accordance with British broadcasting policy. There is another reason. The Committee may like to know that for some months past we have been endeavouring to secure the use of the Radio Luxembourg transmitter for our broadcasts to Germany and Austria, and the French Government are interested in its use for similar purposes. Discussions have already taken place between the British, French and Luxembourg Governments regarding the possibility of securing the use of this transmitter except for such time as the Luxembourg Government may require it for their own broadcasts.
Mr. Beverley Baxter Mr. Beverley Baxter rose——
Mr. Morrison: May I just finish? The Luxumbourg Government have invited us to discuss the matter further with them.
Mr. Baxter: What about stations based on Eire? How would the Government deal with that?
Mr. Morrison: One at a time. I do not think I had better make a venture across the Irish Sea without full and proper consideration. I feel sure the hon. Gentleman will understand.
It has been suggested that there might be a separate State Corporation as is the case in Australia, New Zealand and, I think, in the Dominion of Canada.
Mr. Henderson Stewart: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that point, this is a very important issue. It is not just a matter of one station directing its advertising to this country. The issue I have raised is that it looks as if the Government were intending as part of their policy to say that we shall allow certain foreign stations to reach this country, but others we shall not. I contested that right. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what is the intention of the Government on that all important matter?
Mr. Morrison: The hon. Member has got it wrong. I never said, and obviously cannot say, that the Government have either the power or intention to prevent all commercial broadcasting reaching this country. Someone has even mentioned
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the United States of America in this connection. I have done nothing of the kind. Quite frankly, we do not like this effort of a concern to set up a business in Luxembourg for the purpose of directing broadcasting at this country, when the policy of our country is otherwise. This does not mean that we are going to jam it, or that anyone is going to be penalised who listens to it. They can listen to what they like, but the Government are entitled to a view as to what is desirable in this matter. Quite frankly, this particular type of sheer naked exploitation, not of the highest order, is one which we do not like. We feel that if we can discourage it, we should discourage it.
Mr. W. J. Brown: I listened to the right hon. Gentleman's statement the other day on this matter. It may be my stupidity, but what it conveyed to me was that the Government had a definite view of the desirability of broadcasts from particular stations abroad reaching here, and it was in the mind of the Government to do something about it. If I have misunderstood that, I fear the misconception is shared by a great many other hon. Members.
Mr. Morrison: It was a joint misconception on the part of the hon. Gentleman and the Leader of the Opposition, and there may have been others. Having read them again, I do not think that the words I used justify that interpretation. The view I have stated today is the view of His Majesty's Government. There is this more important consideration which has arisen, which is, that it would be a good use of this station if we could get it for Anglo-French broadcasts to Germany and Austria.
A second alternative has been the idea of the State running both our system and the commercial system side by side. That really does ignore the wavelength difficulty, and we are in a difficulty about wavelengths, as I will explain to the Committee. That does not mean that this unwillingness to split up the concern, which we feel would have unwise effects upon its effectiveness, that the Government do not recognise the value of competition and emulation. That is always a thing we encourage, and is certainly a very desirable thing, even among Members of Parliament. It is indeed for this very reason that we welcome the B.B.C.'s intention to press on with its policy of

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regional devolution. We agree entirely with the policy of a large, generous and growing measure of regional devolution, and particularly the utilisation of the talent, and, if I may say so, the accents of the people of these islands, the variations in which. I think is one of the charms of our national life. Therefore, we want to encourage regional devolution.
We have now agreed with the B.B.C., and they have accepted, that there should be a separate Advisory Committee for Scotland, which will advise the B.B.C. on the Scottish programmes and conduct arguments at will. There will be a separate Advisory Committee for Wales which will similarly have the same right, and there will be advisory Committees for the three English regions. Their business will be to help the Corporation to bring to the microphone everything that is best in their area.
Mr. Orr-Ewing: What about the West of England?
Mr. Scollan: With regard to this Advisory Committee for Scotland, have the Government considered the fact that Scotland has five areas for broadcasting, and must not he contused with the areas on this side of the Border? Has my right hon. Friend also taken into consideration the fact that there is an entirely different psychology North of the Border? The people want to develop their own culture as it has been developed over hundreds of years. They do not want someone, who with the best intentions in the world, obviously does not understand the difference. We do not want to be directed from London by an Advisory Committee. On a matter like this, I think my right hon. Friend might tell us something better than this announcement about these mere Advisory Committees.
Mr. Gallacher: Will the right hon. Gentleman agree when I say that the Scottish people do not want a Committee? They want to control their own regions.
Mr. Morrison: Of all quarters for that to come from! I am really amazed that the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) did not try to persuade me that Scotland would get far better service if it took Radio Moscow instead of the B.B.C. But off he goes on his nationalist horse again. Our view is that to divide
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the B.B.C. physically into a number national undertakings would be to damage it. If the regions, and in the case of Scotland, Scotland, and in the case of Wales, Wales, have a high degree of regional autonomy, and are encouraged to improve, as I hope they will succeed in doing, their amateur talent in Scotland, Wales and the English regions, and if there is an Advisory Council of Scotsmen in Scotland and Welshmen in Wales-to advise the B.B.C., we think that that is going a long way to ensure the adequate representation of Scottish and Welsh views. It is either that or the breaking up of the undertaking into its constituent elements, which I cannot think would he to the good of Scotland, Wales or England.
I know there is a good deal of interest about the West of England region. I am sorry to be so long, but the Committee wants these points to be dealt with, and as I have gone along I have had a certain number of interventions, of which I am not complaining. I ought to digress to express the Government's deep regret that it has been found necessary to merge the. West of England region with the Midland region into a new Southern region. I know that it will be poor comfort to people in the West Country to be told that we had no alternative but to merge, if the interests of the general body of listeners. throughout the country were not to suffer, and that for technical reasons any other merger of regions would have adversely affected many more listeners. The B.B.C. is very much alive to the need to improve the lot of listeners in the West Country, and is determined that the new programme should contain features, new and old, of special interest to West of England listeners. I have myself often listened to the West of England programme, and I quite understand the feeling of the West of England for it, but Birmingham is not going to dominate the West of England. We had Birmingham dominating British politics for too long.
Mr. Bracken: In the Mosley days?
Mr. Morrison: I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is trying to tempt me by reminding me of Sir Oswald: Mosley, who started in his political party, not mine. The Advisory Committee will be drawn from the present Midland region and West of England region. I am sure that the men and women of Western.

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England will raise their voices to see that the West of England has proper attention, as I am sure the people of Birmingham will.
Sir Patrick Hannon: Does that mean the removal of the present broadcasting station in Birmingham?
Mr. Morrison: No, there is no need for that. It is a matter of adapting the programme so that the West of England will be adequately catered for.
Mr. Orr-Ewing: We were told the other day at Question time that there would be one director from the existing Bristol organisation of the West region who would be attached to Birmingham. If there is only to be one, it does not seem that the West will be fairly represented in the drawing up of programmes.
Mr. Morrison: It is the case that the existing regional director at Bristol, or someone like him, will be associated with it, so that the West of England point of view and experience may be right inside and at the top of the new regional organisation.
Mr. Orr-Ewing: Will he be a joint director?
Mr. Morrison: He will not be a joint director. He will be a high up in the region. Joint directors are like Joint Parliamentary Secretaries and Joint Permanent Secretaries; if it is convenient to get one, it works better.
I have dealt in principle with the point shout monopoly. I do not think in this case that a public monopoly is a bad thing. It is a basic service. After all, there are other monopolies that have been established. Gas, electricity and water are local monopolies but they are monopolies. There is a telephone monopoly, which was instituted by a Conservative Government at the beginning of this century. I believe that in some cities there are actual newspaper monopolies in local publications. It is not necessarily either right or wrong and we think that in this case it is right.
We think that, broadly speaking, the B.B.C. has done its job with a fair degree of public acceptability, and in itself is self-critical and finds out to the best
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of its ability what its listeners are thinking. Some other people tried to find out, but the organisation which was set up rather tailed. It did not get more than 15 members. I think the B.B.C. really tries to find out public criticism and to meet public criticism. We can all criticise—certainly I can as well as other hon. Members.. Sometimes the B.B.C. is subjected to the very serious criticism that, in its alleged complacence, it is not progressive enough in the technical field and that because of this we are falling behind other nations in radio development. The two main issues in this field are television and frequency modulation.
As is well known in regard to television, the B.B.C. was first in the field, and before the war the Alexandra Palace service was unique in the world. I would like to pay a warm tribute to the great pioneering work of the late Mr. John Baird, which contributed materially to our success, On 1st September, 1939, however, we had to close down at Alexandra Palace for security reasons and the staff were scattered very widely. The Americans, in the meantime, picked up and have rather overtaken us, but in this friendly rivalry we are convinced and confident that now we have started again in earnest, we can give a good account of ourselves. The Post Office have a Television Advisory Committee. They are available to the Postmaster General and give him good advice. Television at Alexandra Palace has reopened. We are expecting to extend to Birmingham next, and, later on, to other provincial centres. The problem is one of man power and shortage, and there is another difficulty in the non-cooperation of some of the amusement folk of one sort and another as to willingness to let the B.B.C. televise. I hope that period of non-cooperation will soon pass, because I do not think television will hurt them, and it is for the good of the public that they should be able to see and enjoy these things.
With regard to frequency modulation, the story of this development is not dissimilar from that of television. Here again the potentialities of the new invention were quickly recognised by British radio engineers, and research work made excellent progress until it was interrupted by the war. As long ago as 1942, the Post Office first applied frequency modulation to radio communication, and today

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they make fairly extensive use of it for this purpose. But in its extension o broadcasting, the effect of the war has been to leave us far behind the United States and all that can be said at the moment is that the B.B.C. since V.E. Day has been making very determined efforts to recover lost ground its engineers are, for instance, transmitting every evening experimental frequency modulation broadcasts in the London area. These experiments, we think, should lead within a year or so to detailed plans for the establishment of frequency modulation stations in different parts of the country which may go far to solve the admittedly regrettable problem of the listeners who today, owing to the limitations of medium and lone wave broadcasting, are unable to receive satisfactorily the programme which the B.B.C. has designed for them. These difficulties are particularly strong at night in certain districts and there may be a shifting as the weeks go by. I would like, however, to emphasise that if frequency modulation is to make really rapid progress in this country, our radio manufacturers must keep pace with the development of this new technique, by producing, in good time, sets that can receive frequency modulation broadcasts.
I fear I have left myself no time to speak at length about the B.B.C.'s financial arrangements, but my hon. Friend the Assistant Postmaster-General hopes to be able to deal with any financial points raised in the course of the Debate, and no doubt with other points as well. I would, however, say here that the Government are examining carefully the recommendations made in the recent report of the Select Committee on Estimates, and are considering the extent to which they are consistent with the maintenance of the principle that financial control of the B.B.C. must not be taken to the point at which it can only be 'exercised by interference with the independence which the Corporation derives from its Charter
Finally, may I say just one word in tribute to those unknown men, the engineers of the Post Office and of the B.B.C., who have done such magnificent work in the field and brought great credit upon our country? They deserve our thanks and our praise, as also do the staff of the B.B.C. and the Post Office generally who deal with these matters. I trust that having explained to the Committee why
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the Government do not think that an immediate inquiry is wise or practicable, and having given the assurances that I have given, the Committee will regard the statement which I have made as broadly acceptable in all the circumstances.
Mr. Logan: Might I ask the Minister if it is possible to give training in domestic service to some of the artists who screech on the radio, rather than that they should offend the British public?
5.36 p.m.
Mr. Brendan Bracken: The most interesting passage in the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman was his irrelevant announcement that the Government intend to set up an inquiry into the state of the Press——
Mr. Morrison: The right hon. Gentleman should not cause me to repeat myself. He knows that I did not say than
Mr. Bracken: The right hon. Gentleman can read HANSARD tomorrow. I aver that the right hon. Gentleman quite unneccessarily brought up this topic of the Press. He said the Government accepted the desire of his hon. Friends that there should be an inquiry into the state of the Press. I believe that the state of the Press thoroughly well known. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I believe also that the right hon. Gentleman has no respect whatsoever for the freedom of the Press, or for the freedom of any one who ventures to criticise the Government or his august self. Freedom of- the Press, let me remind the Lord President, is a right of the public and not a right of the Press, and the public will have something to say about the Lord President's threats to the Press today.
The Chairman: This Debate is concerned not with the Press but with broadcasting.
Mr. Bracken: It is very difficult when the Lord President drags in this topic without any notice. Surely, I am entitled to say to him that the freedom of the Press is more precious than the wounded vanity of a would-be dictator, smarting under legitimate Press criticism.
Mr. Blackburn: On a point of Order. May I ask whether it is in Order to call the right hon. Gentleman a "would-be dictator"?
Mr. Oliver Stanley: Which is wrong—the "would be"?
The Chairman: We must not be too thin skinned. I do not think either of the right hon. Gentlemen takes the expression very seriously.
Mr. Bracken: This curious announcement was made about the Press today but I intend to make no further reference to the matter. I am now going to deal with the interesting speech of the Lord President. Obviously it was very carefully prepared for him by these various Departments. He made a number of announcements regarding policy which are of some importance. So far as I could discover, it apparently is the intention of the Government to purchase the Luxembourg radio station. To my mind, such a policy is singularly foolish. Broadcasting to Great Britain will not be prevented by buying a few stations on the Continent. Let me begin by refuting the suggestion, made in characteristically elegant language by the Lord President, that the object of the Motion put down by 200 hon. Members was to push the B.B.C. about. The setting-up of a committee of inquiry is not a pushing-about process. If it were, the present Prime Minister, presumably, would not have joined the Ullswater Committee, which inquired into the working and policy of the B.B.C. before the present Charter was renewed. We ask the Prime Minister to give us an opportunity such as he and his colleagues willingly accepted in 1935. Surely, that is a reasonable request? The Lord President will not deny that the scope and problems of the B.B.C. have not diminished since 1935. Since then, the B.B.C. has become a very potent publicity instrument. It is probably the greatest in the world. Surely, therefore, it is in the public interest, and for the sake of the B.B.C., that an inquiry into the administration and problems of the B.B.C. should automatically follow every renewal of the Charter?
Incidentally, such an inquiry would give the B.B.C.a rare opportunity of explaining its workings and its doings. Broadcasting policy has received very little attention from Governments and Parliaments. It is odd to consider the small amount of time devoted by this House during the last 20 years to discussions on general broadcasting policy. We have given up little or no time to a sub-
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ject of immense importance to the country, and, indeed. beyond the country, and I feel that, in future, much greater time must be given to national broadcasting policy, because, after all, broadcasting is in its childhood. It is an immense giant, though very young; it was not reared. It just grew up, and was quite casually cast into monopoly. In the Lord President's speech today, the right hon. Gentleman mentioned that a Conservative Government had created this monopoly. It is perfectly true, but the fact of the matter is that, at that time, nobody had any idea of the potentialities of the B.B.C. It was looked upon as a toy, and it was, therefore, treated with scant care, and was cast, as I have said, into monopoly.
Mr. Gallacher: Is the right hon. Gentleman not rather misleading the Committee? The Conservative Government had a very good idea of the possibilities of the B.B.C., but had no idea that there was going to be a Labour Government.
Mr. Bracken: Nobody has ever claimed prophecy as one of the gifts of the Conservative Party, and, if I might remind my hon. Comrade, he had no idea, either, that there was to be a Labour Government, and I dare say that he relishes the present Labour Government just about as much as we do. Twenty-five years ago, few people in this country anticipated that the B.B.C. would become a part of every home, and of almost every school, a great influence in Empire and foreign affairs and, perhaps, the most trusted newsgiver in the world. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am very glad to listen to this applause, because go per cent. of B.B.C. news comes from Press agencies. It is right that we should review the doings of this most powerful institution before renewing the Charter, and I ask hon. Gentlemen who sit on the other side of the Committee, if they do not consider it to be a reasonable thing, before handing over or renewing such great powers, that a Select Committee, or, if the Government prefer it, a Royal Commission, should look into the policy of the B.B.C., its administration, and, perhaps, the problems of the B.B.C. I should have thought that the party opposite would have welcomed that suggestion, just as the Prime Minister welcomed the invitation to sit on the Ullswater Committee,

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which was the body which recommended renewal of the present B.B.C. Charter.
I had some little experience of the B.B.C., as the Lord President said, and that enables me to say that we could talk for days about broadcasting in general and the B.B.C. in particular. The White Paper ignores many issues of high consequence to broadcasting, and I have only a limited time and therefore must deal in a very sketchy way with some of these issues today. The most lively, of course, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Stewart) is whether the B.B.C. is to continue to monopolise broadcasting in Britain. The B.B.C.'s critics, who are, of course, much more vocal than its friends, claim that broadcasting would greatly improve if the monopoly were abolished. I cannot list even one-tenth of the criticisms one hears of the B.B.C. It is said to be both timid and arrogant, out of touch with the robust feelings of John Bull, given to endless verbosity, intolerably complacent, more devoted to humourless and exasperating exhortation than was even the late Dr. Arnold of Rugby. Another set of critics maintains that it is the most boring of entertainers, and many people connected with the stage declare that it is the stingiest of payers. These are but a few of the bouquets thrown at the B.B.C. Its critics assert that the only way to improve broadcasting, therefore, is to abolish the monopoly and replace it by sponsored radio along American lines. There is an alternative proposal which is to set up three competing broadcasting systems, which do not, of course, take advertising, and finance them by pooling the total sums received from licences and dividing them into four parts—one for each of the three competing radio systems, and the fourth given to the one which is voted the most popular.
Mr. Scollan: Three separate corporations?
Mr. Bracken: Yes, three separate corporations. That is the proposal, as I understand it, and the one which is voted the most popular will receive a very handsome financial reward.
Mr. Benn Levy: I do not think the last part is an accurate description of that interesting proposal, which appeared in a paper with which, I think, the right hon. Gentleman himself
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has connections. The proposal was that any listener should be entitled to allocate one-fourth of his fee to whichever corporation he wanted.
Mr. Bracken: That does not really differ from what I have said. Later, I hope to have a few moments to go into that particular suggestion, because, as the hon. Gentleman says, it is a very interesting one. First, I would like to follow the Lord President in dealing with sponsored radio, and I hope the Committee will bear with me for a few moments if I say something about it. During 4½years of harrowing life in Bloomsbury, I was given opportunities of comparing the output of sponsored radio with that of the B.B.C. Let me begin by saying that American broadcasting is often unfairly, not to say maliciously, criticised. Despite what the Lord President said, American entertainment is infinitely superior to that provided by the B.B.C. Many American educational and other broadcasting features are truly brilliant, and the large American radio companies, in general, can say that their programmes are much more lively and fresh in presentation than a good many of those put over by the B.B.C. The American sponsored radio system is certainly far more courageous in dealing with controversial issues. It is also much less rigidly controlled and, therefore, can make all sorts of rewarding experiments. The last point is important, and I am sorry that the Lord President did not say much about it today. Freedom to experiment is vital.
Broadcasting, after all, is in its childhood, and needs plenty of free play for new ideas and techniques. It is a great pity that the Americans are enabled, by the comparative freedom that most of their companies enjoy, to get ahead of the B.B.C. in so many respects. But let us always remember that the revenues of American radio companies are certainly six times that of the B.B.C., and that they have a very much wider reservoir of talent to draw from because the population of the United States is three times that of Britain.
Mr. Cobb: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that point, can he say how the Americans propose to finance television? How would he get sponsored programmes to provide a television service? Are not the Americans in a difficulty on that point?
Mr. Bracken: I do not think the Americans will ever be found to be in great difficulty in solving the problem as the hon. Gentleman suggests. I was just about to turn to some of the defects of sponsored radio, so, perhaps, the hon. Gentleman would oblige me by listening for a moment or two.
My slight knowledge of broadcasting in the United States would hardly justify me in making didactic criticisms of sponsored radio, but, if the Committee wish to obtain the best of all information about some of the defects of that system, they should read the most recent report of the Federal Communications Committee, the United States Government instrument for dealing with broadcasting matters. It has been reprinted by the National Association of Broadcasters, the representative body of the industry who, presumably, concur in most of its recommendations and strictures. There are some astonishing passages in this report. The Lord President read us a slight extract of the type of broadcasting which is frequently permitted over many important networks in the United States, but here are a few extracts from the Federal Communications Committee's report:
"In addition to the general relaxation of advertising standards, there is abundant evidence that even the present National Association of Broadcasters' standards are being flouted by some stations and networks. Frequent examples of commercial advertising in excess of N.A.B. standards were noted on all four networks and all six stations in Washington, D.C. The result of the study suggests that on networks and stations alike, the N.A.B. standards are as honoured in the breach as in the observance."
Consider this sardonic extract to show the exploitation of patriotic appeal by advertising in the patent medicine business. A headache curer, if it fulfils the advertiser's claims, sells its wares in these words:
"All of us have a big job on our hands if we want to keep America the land of the free and the home of the brave. An all-out effort needs hard work and lots of it. Production must move forward fast. Get one of the 10 or 25 cent. packages of B.C. today."
And here is the solemn Federal Communications Committee's comment on what it calls "physiological commercial advertisements":
"Appeals to the listener to take an internal bath, inquiry of the listener whether he has the common ailment known as the American stomach,' discussions of body odours, sluggish bile, etcetera, are a distinguishing characteristic of American broadcasting."
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Finally, let me read an extract, which is of some importance, showing the distribution of the large sums received by the American radio companies:
"According to data compiled by the Publishers Information Bureau more money is spent in network advertising of drug and toilet goods than for any other products—27.9 per cent. of all network gross billings is for such products. Drug and cosmetic advertising is said to have trebled between 1939 and 1944. The increasing identification of radio as a purveyor of patent medicines and proprietary remedies raises serious problems which warrant careful consideration by the broadcasting industry."
Mr. Woods: Is not this all equally valid of the British Press today?
Mr. Bracken: If the hon. Member wishes to criticise what is in the newspapers published by his own party, he ought to do it in private and not in public. It is unseemly. As I was saying, I have quoted enough from this official report to bring the Committee into general agreement that we should not accept sponsored radio without a thorough inquiry into its working.
I want to say a word about the proposal to divide the revenue from licences into four parts and to encourage three British corporations to compete for the fourth part. I must point out to the Committee that the rising costs of production are going to provide many financial headaches for the Governors of the B.B.C. I do not think that sufficient care has been taken in estimating the heavy costs of television. At the present moment, the revenues of the B.B.C. are barely adequate, if television is included, to cover its cost. The probable result of the proposal to set up three competing stations or systems not taking advertising will result in three financially embarrassed broadcasting systems. I hardly think that that would be an acceptable substitute for the B.B.C. Let us suppose that the B.B.C. continues to reign alone. What improvements are desirable?
Regarding regions, the Lord President gave us an account today of the B.B.C. Governors' plans to improve regional organisation. I rather think that the Lord President took some credit for the Government for that decision. But I very much hope that he will not abide by that suggestion, because whatever credit or blame there is in relation to B.B.C. matters must always be given to the Governors. If a decision was made by the

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Governors to give more home rule to the regions, this Committee should congratulate the B.B.C. Governors on that decision.
Mr. H. Morrison: I do not know where the right hon. Gentleman is getting. The Government are entitled to make suggestions to the B.B.C. The suggestion about the advisory councils, I am pretty sure, came from the Government itself, and, I agree, was willingly accepted by the B.B.C.
Sir Ian Fraser: They already had advisory councils.
Mr. Morrison: No, not the regional advisory councils.
Mr. Bracken: I think the Lord President's interruption was totally unnecessary. I was pointing out that any decision about more borne rule in the regions can only he taken by the Governors of the B.B.C. and that His Majesty's Government are not entitled to any credit for that decision. Furthermore, as my hon. Friend the Member for Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) has said, B.B.C. regional organisations have existed for many years, and I myself am not greatly impressed by the advisory councils which the B.B.C. are setting up in Scotland and Wales. Advisory councils, generally speaking, do nothing. They are just a decoration. They are a sop given by the B.B.C. to the local feelings of the Welsh, the Scots and the people who live in the North of England. But I do feel that there is justification for the restiveness of people in Scotland, Wales, and in the North of England. People who think that they are the best and most numerous of the population, have a right to claim that their interests are not entirely provided for or, at least, were not provided for by the B.B.C. in wartime.
Mr. Gallacher: Why did not the right hon. Gentleman do something about it?
Mr. Bracken: I knew that it was quite impossible for the B.B.C. Governors thoroughly to develop regional organisation during the war. That would be regarded as one of the first blessings of peace, and I was very glad to hear from the Lord President today that a real drive will he put behind the regional organisation of the B.B.C. There is also great room for devolution and experiment in the B.B.C. One of the best ways of
1106
improving the Corporation is for the Governors to rid themselves of many inhibitions. They are too much afraid of Parliamentary criticism. I remember that from tine to time, when hon. Mermbers of this House put clown Questions about the B.B.C., some of the Governors were greatly perturbed. But they need riot have bothered I hold the view that the Governors of the B.B.C. should not be afraid of criticism from any quarter. They feared that if they put up with it from Parliament, they would have to put up with it from many pressure groups in the country. The B.B.C. is much too apprehensive of pressure groups, or, indeed, of all organised bodies. After all, what is the main purpose which the B.B.C. serves at home? It is to provide a very lively forum where we can have the freest of arguments from all sorts and conditions of persons in the community who hold strong views.
Mr. Gallacher: Except religion.
Mr. Bracken: The hon. Gentleman interrupts again I know that he is a passionate defender of religion, and would wish to have the B.B.C. given the same facilities for religion as are given by the Moscow radio, but I will not be drawn by his religious enthusiasm. I was saying that the B.B.C. should welcome the widest freedom of discussion, always following the golden rule of giving a fair opportunity to arguers on both sides. I am bound to say that until recently, the Governors have taken the comfortable attitude of avoiding controversy, and, as controversy is one of the essentials of democracy, I hope that the Governors of the B.B.C. will not take too much notice of the people who write and complain about various broadcasts. There are in this country a number of persons who, perhaps, do not want to use the B.B.C. themselves, or, perhaps, whom nobody would invite to broadcast, but who are determined not to allow anybody else to broadcast from the B.B.C. When the Lord President said today that he hoped the Governors of the B.B.C. would be as fair to the Government as they were to the Opposition, I take it that that is really an encouragement to them to give us a little more political controversy on the radio. I am not saying that it should be overdone It is possible to bore the public very quickly by having too much political controversy on the radio, but I think it

1107
is absurd that politicians who have a case to argue, or that eminent public figures like the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President or my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, cannot receive an invitation to broadcast. The Governors of the B.B.C. have a perfect right to invite anyone they like to broadcast, and the fact that he is connected with politics should not be a bar. After all, spending a great deal of time in this House should not be regarded as great a stigma as, say, spending 10 years in Broadmoor or Dartmoor.
There is, of course, no doubt that a great deal of internal reorganisation of the B.B.C. is desirable. I was rather surprised that the Lord President today did not make some comment on the Report of the Select Committee on B.B.C. expenditure, because had he done so, I expect he would have done as I now intend to do, namely, to say that I consider that some of the sentiments expressed in that Report were wholly harmful to the freedom of broadcasting in this country. I do not believe that the Governors of the B.B.C. should have to come to this House and explain their expenditure in great detail to a Committee upstairs. Parliament, having approved the appointment of a Board of Governors, should give those Governors a reasonable measure of liberty, and I very much hope that the B.B.C. will not be subjected to too much grilling in this House on the ground of their expenditure.
There is another point about the B.B.C. to which I particularly want to refer. There was a mysterious passage in the Lord President's speech when he said that there was a common belief that the Director-General was too powerful a subject in the B.B.C., and that the Board of Governors only met to endorse his decisions. But what was curious was later when the Lord President went out of his way to pay a glowing tribute to Lord Reith. It was said of the Director-General of the B.B.C. some years ago, that he was a very dominant character, but I know of no reason why the Lord President should say that any Director-General of the B.B.C. in recent times has exceeded his functions. Certainly that would not be true of the present Director-General of the B.B.C., Sir William Haley, who is a man of great wisdom and tolerance, and
1108
full of courage, and who, I think, is the best possible choice for one of the highest offices in this country.
I hope, now that the war is over and they have got some time on their hands, that the Governors of the B.B.C. will go in for an extensive scheme of what the Lord President calls devolution. It is very necessary in Broadcasting House, and there are some curious anomalies there. For instance, I should have thought that all entertainment in the B.B.C. should be handed over to an expert. It is not a job for an earnest official or a painstaking administrator. It is a job for a young Cochrane, if one can be found. I certainly do not accept the Lord President's suggestion today, that the artists and writers or the staff of the B.B.C. are well paid. I am quite surprised that the Lord President could take such a view. I must say, the folly of the White Paper in suggesting that the B.B.C. staff should be paid on what they call "Civil Service principles" strikes me as being perfectly absurd. The less Civil Service atmosphere we have about the B.B.C., the better for the B.B.C., and the country.
Mr. Scollan: I do not agree.
Mr. Bracken: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman does not. I do not think the Lord President sufficiently understands that organisers of entertainment are the best-paid people in the United States, and they are not badly rewarded in this comparatively poverty-stricken island. Certainly the Press, which was so roundly abused by the Lord President—[HoN. MEMBERS: "No."]—The Press the Lord President proposes to inquire into, if hon. Members like that better, certainly pay their staffs far better than the B.B.C. I say this to the Lord President: Civil Service standards of pay will get the B.B.C. nowhere. If the B.B.C. want to get good artists they must be prepared to pay for them.
Mr. Scollan: Where does the money go to now?
Mr. Kirkwood: Where is the money coming from?
Mr. Bracken: The hon. Member asks "Where is the money coming from?" That is a point of some importance, because I do not believe even the present revenues of the B.B.C. are really adequate for the work it has to do. That

1109
will be one of the jobs of the Joint Select Committee, if the Government will condescend to appoint one, to discover whether the B.B.C. should have any alternative sources of revenue. For instance, many people suggest that in television the B.B.C. might undertake advertising. I express no opinion on that subject, but it is worthy of consideration.
Mr. Scollan: Would the right hon. Gentleman tell us how it comes about that in Scotland, we had 1,900 hours of broadcasting and paid £500,000 for it? Where did the money go to?
Mr. Bracken: I suppose the population of Scotland now is about 5,000,000?
Mr. Scollan: Yes.
Mr. Bracken: If the hon. Gentleman makes a calculation, he will find that the unfortunate British have been paying for a goodly part of the radio entertainment given to the Scots.
Mr. Scollan: I do not agree. They are making a profit out of the Scots.
Mr. Bracken: It is, of course, a terrible error to arouse the tribal antipathies of the Scots. Let me turn for one moment to another improvement which is, I hope, likely to be non-controversial. One of the best possible methods of improving the B.B.C. would be for the Prime Minister always to search for the best Governors. They have immense responsibilities in the governance of the B.B.C., and it is a post which offers the widest field of public service. Of course, one of the prime qualifications of a Governor of the B.B.C. is that he should be a resolute resister of governmental and other pressures. Prime Ministers do not always like that craggy quality; neither, indeed, does the Lord President of the Council, whose connection with the B.B.C. is doubtless of very great advantage to that institution, providing always he remembers he is presiding over the Council and not over the B.B.C.
I have talked a bit too much—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—and I intend to go on for quite a while. I have talked too much about the need of improvement in the B.B.C. I will now say a few words about its virtues. In the old days the Ministry of Information had very close and unorthodox relations with the B.B.C. In fact, our affairs were very much mixed
1110
up indeed. Therefore, I am, I suppose, one of the few people who have seen most of the normally impenetrable B.B.C., and from that inner knowledge I make bold to generalise about the men and women who have served B.B.C. during the war, and who serve it today. They are best described by a lapidary sentence written by an "8th century ecclesiastic, Lord Crewe, Bishop of Durham. He described his wife in the following perfect sentence:
"She was a constant lover of the best."
Neither the B.B.C. nor the bishopess may have fulfilled that proud claim, bit I aver that the B.B.C. has tried hard to do so: Its efforts at times may have been woefully inadequate; it may be that its standards have been pitched far too high. But who can say, in this age of the "debunking" of so many things that are true and of good report, that the B.B.C. is not right? Idealism is a much better guide than a cynical materialism. [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.''] How delightful it is to get that applause from a party which recently perpetrated the worst piece of political jobbery in history, over the repeal of the Trade Disputes Acts. As I do not want to get too involved in controversy, I had better return to the, rather placid topic of the merits of the B.B.C.
The B.B.C. has a lot to learn, but it has clone great things, and has deserved well of the public. It has plenty of vocal critics; it has also got troops of taciturn friends. In my poor judgment, it has faithfully fulfilled a great public trust. Many hon. Members in this House and in the country will vigorously dispute this statement. Surely it ought to be put to the test of a thorough review of all that has been done and left undone in the great opportunities of broadcasting. In the course of the last 20 minutes I have been dealing, in a most inadequate way, with matters which should be relegated to a Joint Select Committee. If I may respectfully say so, the Lord President did so too. He has been making various statements about the B.B.C. which are interesting in themselves, but which cannot allay the great anxiety there is in the country about certain aspects of broadcasting policy. Therefore, I cannot understand why the Government will not agree to the setting up, either of a Joint Select Committee or of a Royal Commission. The issues involved in a blank

1111
renewal of the Charter are harmful, both to the public and to the B.B.C. I say that because I speak as a friend to the B.B.C. It is thoroughly harmful to the B.B.C. that an inquiry is not granted, and will not always be granted in the future when the Charter is renewed. As I said before, there ought to be an automatic inquiry before renewal of the Charter. The Lord President tells us it would he very injurious to hold an inquiry now, but he is perfectly prepared to hold one in two or three years' time. I should have thought that it would be far more upsetting to the staff of the B.B.C. to be looking over their shoulders for so long a period. The time for an inquiry is now. Let us follow the precedent of the Ullswater Committee by holding an inquiry before the Charter is renewed. The Charter can be temporarily continued; I do not suppose there is any legal difficulty; if there is, the Lord President could consult with the Attorney-General and I dare say we could get a swift reply. There ought to be no difficulty in carrying on the Charter for another year or two years, and that would give the Committee time to consider the case for and against the continuance of the Charter. This House would then be in possession of an adequate report to guide it in shaping broadcasting policy.
I beg the Government, in the interests of the public and of the B.B.C. to grant the inquiry sought by so many hon. Members of this House. This is not a party matter. Our broadcasting standards and performances are of the highest consequence to all our people. It may be that, quite by accident, we have fixed upon the best system of broadcasting. Or, are we perpetuating a monopoly which will cramp the great potentialities of broadcasting? This question can only be settled by setting up the strongest possible committee of inquiry the Government can appoint. Such a committee could hear the case of those who hold that the monopoly should end and the case, which may also be put forward very strongly, of the many who believe that it would be a great advantage to Britain if the Charter were renewed. I know that the Home Secretary—[HON. MEMBERS: "The Home Secretary?"]—I am sorry, I mean the Lord President of the
1112
Council; I keep on referring to him as the Home Secretary because at his intemperate language today, which made me remember the days when was the master of 18B. I make an appeal to the Lord President: Why is it not possible to assent to the wish of so many people in this House and in the country? It is not a criticism of the B.B.C. to set up this inquiry now. On the contrary, I believe the B.B.C. will come out of the inquiry with flying colours, and I feel that the only reason why the Government are resisting the suggestion put forward by my hon. Friends and by other Members of this House is sheer obstinacy, and a desire to refuse a perfectly sensible proposition put forward by the Opposition.
I do hope that the Lord President will reconsider this decision. He can do it quite easily, because apparently he decides many things without consultation with 10, Downing Street, and if he would only enable the Assistant-Postmaster General to rise this evening to tell us that this Joint Select Committee will be appointed, we should be deeply grateful to the Leader of the House, not only for his intermittent,presence today, but also for showing some slight contact with democracy.
6.23 p.m.
Mr. Gordon-Walker: I was very happy to hear the Lord President of the Council say that in principle the Government were in favour of an inquiry into the B.B.C. and that it should he relatively quick. I want to press upon the Government the need for the earliest possible inquiry that can be organised. I think there are considerable dangers in delaying the inquiry for any longer interval than is absolutely essential. I agree with the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) that this implies no hostility to the Corporation. The Corporation is exposed to a great deal of unthinking criticism, and a considerable amount of interested criticism in certain sections of the Press, but I think it has contributed very highly to our public life by the objective standard of its news. In the development of the talk as a radio form it has produced something which is unique and peculiar to this country; here it has achieved a much higher standard than has been achieved anywhere else. I was very glad to hear the tributes paid to the achievements of the B.B.C. in over-

1113
seas broadcasting during the war. I myself think they are much better now than the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Stewart) said. He did not make sufficient allowance for the necessity in peace time to cut down our expenditure on overseas broadcasts.
Although the reasons why I urge the Government to make the earliest possible inquiry do not spring from hostility, although I have a very high regard for the B.B.C., there have been in recent times one or two examples of a falling away from its proper standards. I am not referring to political jokes, because it is very important that there should be political jokes, and it is quite natural that the party in power should be the main butt of the political jokes of comedians. I do not think anyone minds a good crack at a Minister, except possibly the Minister himself, and even for him it is good publicity. But it seems to me that there have been recent cases in which the B.B.C. has allowed itself to fall below the standards of good taste and even of patriotism. A recent example was a song, broadcast I think on 25th April, which had as its theme "I want to be a refugee from Britain"—that theme occurred three times in 12 lines. I would like to read to the Committee the last four lines of this song. which seems to me to fall well below the standard of patriotism that one should demand of the Corporation. It will make hon. Members on the opposite side laugh, no doubt, because they may possibly agree with it, but it is totally unpatriotic:
"I want to be a refugee from Britain,
The lovely place where I'm no longer free,
For if they can carry on without Winston Churchill,
They will blooming well have to manage without me."
There are eight other lines——
Mr. Sydney Silverman: Can my hon. Friend say whether the author of that song was the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers)?
Mr. Gordon-Walker: Although it sounds funny read out here, it really seems to me to be unworthy of a great and responsible Corporation, to which have been committed a very high trust and very great powers.
Mr. Beverley Baxter: If the hon. Member really takes that kind of thing
1114
so seriously, should he not also argue that we should suppress the Gilbert and Sullivan song, "A Policeman's Lot is not a Happy One"?
Mr. Gordon-Walker: That is very different from suggesting that we should leave this country, which is what is suggested by that song. I know that this sort of thing is sometimes said by holt. Members on the other side, and it seems just as unpatriotic when it is said by them as when it is said over the air, and I think it is quite unworthy of a great Corporation.
Mr. Orr-Ewing: The hon. Member is implying and imputing all sorts of things about the broadcasting of different types of songs; does he think that the song "Don't Go Down the Mine Daddy" is an excuse for having no coal?
Mr. Gordon-Walker: This could go on interminably, but to complete my point, I repeat that it seems to me to be unpatriotic and below the standards which should be set by the B.B.C.
The reason why I think there should be as early an inquiry as possible is that quite unforeseen developments have occurred since the Ullswater days, and it is essential that the problems connected with those developments should be settled by considerations of public policy and not by the day to day administrative practice of the B.B.C., which must and should be shrouded from the public view. We shall find, unless we have this inquiry very quickly, that very considerable and important matters will be settled in that way instead of by considerations of public policy.
There is, for example, this new development of overseas broadcasting, which has been mentioned by the Lord President and other speakers. Looking at the White Paper, and even listening to the Lord President, and discovering what I can about this myself, I do not think the Government have properly thought out this problem of the relationship of the State to this new field of broadcasting. New Departments are becoming interested. in broadcasting because of the overseas. programmes—the Foreign Office, the Dominions Office, the Colonial Office and, I hope, the Board of Trade; but, as far. as I can find out, these new Departments are not getting a sufficient say in such complicated problems as the allocation of

1115
frequencies and wavelengths. The Departments already ensconced in the field, like the Post Office and the Service Departments have too much power to secure their ends in these matters. The Government are not giving sufficient consideration to political problems, as against purely technical ones.
A matter which, I think, is of the greatest importance is the development of wire broadcasting. It seems to me a most potent and dangerous social instrument It seems to me that the power of those who control wire broadcasting is even greater than that of those who originate programmes in studios, because those who control the wire broadcasting can dictate what the listeners shall not listen to, whether it is broadcast from at home or abroad. I think that there is a strong argument for banning this thing altogether —it is perhaps too powerful an instrument even to be in public hands. But at the very least it should be in public, and not in private, hands. It seems far too great a power in private hands. We should settle this problem as soon as possible because the power of these organisations will grow, and there will be increasing complications, and difficulties of compensation, to face when we take them over, the longer we allow this problem to run.
I should like to say how glad I was to hear what the Lord President had to say about labour relationships in the B.B.C., now and in the future. I have a particular interest in this, because I was employed by the B.B.C., and I am chairman of the National Union of Journalists branch in the B.B.C. Although the Lord President said it had not been a tyrannical Corporation, and although that is quite true, none the less, this addition to the Charter will make a considerable change. The Corporation has been one of the few bodies in the country which actually could and did dictate to its employees through what organisations they should be represented. This new change, incorporating something closely similar to the corresponding Clause in the Civil Aviation Bill, will make a very great and important change, which, I think, hon. Members on this side of the Committee will very warmly welcome.
My final point concerns the form and date of the inquiry, granted that there should be the earliest possible inquiry. As to the form it seems to me that the
1116
last thing we want is a Joint Select Committee. There is no virtue in a Member of Parliament that makes him suitable for settling these sorts of things. Hon. Members should be available for such a Committee, but to limit the Committee to hon. Members of the House and to Members of another place would be irrelevant to such a task as that which this committee of inquiry would have. As to the date, I think that, if the Government had shown in this respect what it has shown in practically everything else, the expedition for which this Government is famous, as the Lord President said, then the inquiry could have been held and have been finished, or nearly finished, by now. I think that should be said frankly; but, none the less, we have, unlike the right hon. Member for Bournemouth to face things as they are now; and because we could have had this 12 months ago, it does not follow we should have it today. There are powerful arguments against renewing the Charter. The uncertainty of the staff, particularly in the Overseas Service, would be serious; and already serious consequences have been caused by uncertainty there.
There are two factors controlling this question of the earliest possible date. One, which has been mentioned, is the international convention on frequencies, and so forth which, I think, we should be able to get finished in about 18 months. The other is the date of 31st December, 1949, when the present licences for wire broadcasting come to an end. It seems to me that this inquiry should be finished before that date. Therefore. it seems to me that, if we take these two factors into account, we should choose a date about the middle of 1948 for the setting up of a commission, or some sort of inquiry, which would sit, perhaps, for eight or 12 months, and could report in 1949, in good time before the wire wireless licences expire. I hope that we shall get a firm indication from the Government that it is their intention hold this inquiry at the earliest possible moment, and that they intend to hold it in two years' time, rather than three.
6.35 p.m.
Lady Megan Lloyd-George (Anglesey): I am sure the Committee is grateful to the hon. Member for East Fife. (Mr. Stewart) for this opportunity to discuss this most important matter. Like the hon. Member

1117
for Smetnwick (Mr. Gordon-Walker) I hope that the Government will revise the decision they have made, and institute an inquiry, at a very early date, into the B.B.C. I should like to say, as other hon. Members have said, that this can in no sense be regarded as criticism of the B.B.C. Many tributes have been paid to the Corporation in this Debate this afternoon, and I think all of them have been richly deserved, because of the remarkable work which the Corporation did during the war and is doing at the present time. But may I say that, in spite of the rare and refreshing speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken), I still believe that the best case for the prosecution has been made by the defence, and the strongest case for an early inquiry was made by the Government in the White Paper and by the right hon. Gentleman in his speech today. The Lord President of the Council made it perfectly clear this afternoon that he is not against what he called a searching inquiry into the constitution of the B.B.C. He is in favour of it. Therefore, the only difference between him and those who put their names to the Motion already referred to is the factor of time—what is the most appropriate time for the inquiry to take place?
What are the arguments which have been used against an early inquiry? We are told, first, that since the Ullswater Report, the B.B.C. had only been working for two years under normal conditions and that it is far too early to come to any conclusion on how these recommendations have worked. It seems to me that the Government are arguing as though there had been a standstill in broadcasting technique during the war, whereas, in fact, as everybody knows, there has been a revolution. As a result of the experience of the war, a whole crop of new problems has arisen which we have to face and settle. The right hon. Gentleman raised this afternoon many technical questions. There is really no reason to assume that technical developments, which are going on all the time, will be in a more final state in five years than they are now. They have been progressing and they are progressing all the time.
I should like to say a word about some of the problems that seem to me to have arisen since the Ullswater Report. There is the overseas service, which was in its
1118
infancy before the war. There are the possibilities of the use to be made of Radar in peacetime, and there are countless other developments which have taken place here, in America, and in other countries. It does not seem to me that we can go back to 1939. How many times have we heard hon. Gentlemen opposite say that we cannot go back to 1939, as though nothing has happened? We cannot surely, base the whole policy of the B.B.C. on the findings of a report drawn up not in 1939 but 10 years ago. The Lord President of the Council spoke this afternoon of the relationship of the Government to the B.B.C. During the war, of course, it was inevitable that that relationship should be very close. There was the censorship and the control over foreign broadcasts; it was inevitable. There was also the fact that the wireless was used for Government announcements, statements of Ministers, and for what were called "pep" talks. I sometimes wonder why they were so called. No one had any serious objection to such things at that time.
The Lord President said today that the B.B.C. is to be independent of the Government, but how independent is it to be? I am not at all clear about that after his speech this afternoon. What is the position going to be now? Are the privileges extended to Ministers during the war to continue? Are we still to have Government announcements and statements, and possibly "pep" talks, or are we to go back to the prewar practice? Then the position was that the Corporation were obliged to broadcast any announcements or other matters which a Government Department might require. I would stress "obliged to broadcast." Does that ruling cover the broadcast made by the Lord President of the Council the other day? Under what heading would the right hon. Gentleman say that broadcast was made? I listened to it, and it is difficult to define. It does not come within the narrow, limited category permissible before the war of police notices or announcements of outbreaks of animal diseases. I think we are entitled to know whether unilateral broadcasts of that kind are to be allowed. There is all the difference between Ministers broadcasting in time of war, when there is a Government supported by all parties, and Ministers using the microphone to put across Government policy in time of peace—I do not

1119
mind what the Government is. I am sure that if hon. Members opposite were sitting on this side of the Committee they would agree with me on that. It is really not fair to say "Let us leave it to the discretion of the B.B.C." It is not fair to the B.B.C. Some ruling must be given, and it ought to be given now, because it is not a thing which we can leave undecided for another five years.
There is another power which the Government of the day exercised in prewar days over the B.B.C., and that is the power of veto, about which we have not heard a word today. The Postmaster-General may require the Corporation to refrain from broadcasting any matter, either particular or general. The White Paper tells us that this power has never been formally used. I do not know what the significance of the word "formally" is. Perhaps the Assistant Postmaster-General will tell us when he replies. But the mere fact that there is a veto—what the White Paper calls, the ultimate sanction—is enough; it is the big stick, and although it has never been formally used, it is there, and it has all the effects of a deterrent. It has a definite unnerving effect on the B.B.C. There is no doubt that under the system as it is the Government are adequately safeguarded. The only question which is still open, and is wide open, is whether the public are adequately safeguarded from undue Government interference, that is a thing about which I am not at all clear. In fact I am less clear about it since I heard the speech of the Lord President of the Council today.
We all agree that it is vitally important that the broadcast service in this country, with all its immense power—which sometimes I think has not yet been fully realised—to influence public opinion, should, like the Press, be as free as possible. It is more important than ever today, when the State is assuming an ever greater measure of control over our affairs and our lives. Broadcasting was used in totalitarian countries, and it was used most effectively to prevent facts, to distort values and to bolster up a most pernicious system. Do not let us forget that. What we want to ensure in this country is that the B.B.C. should become an effective instrument of democracy. But I do not believe it will ever become an effective instrument of democracy while con-
1120
troversy on the air is confined to academic debates and arguments about abstract theories. We should have hard-hitting discussions on issues when they are red hot. What does it matter if they embarrass the Government, or if they embarrass the Opposition? That is quite beside the point. Take this very moment, when the public is interested in bread rationing. Let them have the facts, and let them have all the points of view, and then the public can make up their own mind. Because the Government of the day is the Aunt Sally, they ought to have the right of reply. It is perfectly sound, reasonable and rational. It is the way to treat controversy in a democratic State, and not as we have done so often in the past by blanketing all awkward issues.
There are two views on this matter el political controversy in the B.B.C. Either it is treated as something which if it is impartially done is incredibly dull —which it is—or which if it is not impartially done, is not quite nice, and ought to be under strict control. In our overseas programmes there is an entirely different attitude. Anyone who has broadcast in the Overseas Service during the war will know that to be perfectly true. I do not know what is going to happen under this new system which the Lord President of the Council has told us about today, but in the old days, subject to strategic questions and matters of security, you were perfectly free to say on the air what you liked to Europe and America. But the moment you get on the Home Service it is entirely different. The whole attitude is inhibited, panicky and jittery. From personal experience covering a number of years, I would say that it is not the fault of the staff, or even of the executives of the B.B.C., who I believe want to be enterprising and yet have a great sense of responsibility. it is the fault, quite definitely, of the system; that is a thing which wants looking into, and ought to be looked info now without any delay.
There is only one other thing further which I should like to say about the services of the B.B.C., and that concerns the question of the Overseas Service. Is there really no need for inquiry there? The Lord President has told us today of the new arrangement, the Government propose to make. My hon. Friend the

1121
Member for East Fife spoke of the good will which has been created in countries abroad as a result of that Overseas Service. He asked whether we are going to lose that good will, and whether we could afford to lose it. The Lord President said "Certainly not." He told us that that voice is not going to be lost, but what I want to know, after hearing the Lord President, is what voice the outside world is going to hear. Is it the voice of the Foreign Office? He said that we cannot have an Overseas Service which is at variance with the policy of the Foreign Office, and that the Corporation will accept guidance by the Foreign Office. That is the new agreement which has been come to, and it has been come to without any inquiry. This is the new agreement come to between the Government and the Corporation. Hon. Members opposite may say that it is all right. It does not worry us. Perhaps it does not.
Mr, Blackburn: I am sure that the hon. Lady would wish to be quite fair. The Lord President not only said what the hon. Lady has quoted, but added that overseas broadcasts should not be the mouthpiece of the Foreign Office; that they should be somewhere between being a mouthpiece of the Foreign Office on the one hand, and allowing political opinions to be broadcast from this country, on the other.
Lady Megan Lloyd-George: I agree that the right hon. Gentleman made that qualification, but the fact remains that the Overseas Service is not to broadcast stuff which is at variance with the policy of the Foreign Office. That is quite clear from what the right hon. Gentleman has said.
Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: As this is so important, would the right hon. Gentleman himself say whether that is what he meant? I listened very carefully, arid I share the view of the hon. Lady.
Mr. H. Morrison: The hon. Lady had better go on. I will try to put it right later.
Lady Megan Lloyd-George: It was my impression that the right hon. Gentleman made it perfectly clear that they were to "be guided"—those were the two words he used—by the Foreign Office, and not be at variance with the policy of the
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Foreign Office. Hon. Gentlemen opposite are now in power, and they may be there for some time, but they are not going to be there for ever. There will come the day when the policy which will be broadcast over the Overseas Service will be at variance with the policy in which they believe. I ask them to cast their mind back to the years before 1939, and to ask themselves what they would have thought if the Overseas Service of this country, at that time, had been broadcasting a policy which was in agreement with the Government in power at that time. I am not complaining about it particularly in the case of this Government but I think that it is a highly dangerous precedent to be established, and I hope that we shall have some explanation on that later when the Assistant Postmaster-General replies.
I want to say a word or two about commercial broadcasting. The Government have dismissed that almost in a sentence. They have told us that we shall get all the variety we need, by developing the regional stations. They say that in that way we shall get competition. I hope that we shall. 1 hope that complete autonomy will be given to the regions to develop their own individual characteristics. That, of course, brings me to the question of Wales. There is, as the right hon. Gentleman well knows, a widespread demand in the Principality, supported by between 50 and 60 local authorities and public bodies, for a separate Welsh Broadcasting Corporation. An inquiry has been asked for by the Welsh Parliamentary Party, which represents all parties in this House, and I believe that this is a demand which should be investigated by the right hon. Gentleman. There is a similar demand from Scotland. These issues, as far as I know——
Mr. H. Morrison: Perhaps the House would like me to repeat my exact words about foreign broadcasts. I said:
"Clearly it would be unthinkable for Broadcasting House to be broadcasting to Europe, at the taxpayers' expense, doctrines hopelessly at variance with the foreign policy of His Majesty's Government. But, for reasons which I hope will commend themselves to the House, it appeared to the Government to be equally undesirable that the Foreign Office should themselves become responsible for the foreign service."
It is fair to say that the particular presentation will be a matter for the B.B.C.,

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and a good deal of selectivity will be accorded them, but they will be expected to keep in touch with the Foreign Office, so that there is no "hopeless variation" with the foreign policy going out from the B.B.C. But that, in itself, does not prevent controversial discussions about foreign policy on the overseas service. I am told that there has been more controversial matter going overseas than there has been at home.
Lady Megan Lloyd-George: That may have been perfectly true as to what happened in the past, but what we are anxious about now is the future. Naturally the B.B.C. should be responsible for the presentation but are we to have commentaries that are hopelessly at variance with the policy of the Foreign Office? I still hope that we shall watch this matter very carefully because I think that it is most unsatisfactory.
To return to the question of Wales and Scotland, these two matters have never really, so far as I know, been the subject of inquiry. I do not think the matter was discussed by the Ullswater Committee or any other. Have we to wait for five years to have our case met? This is a matter which is vitally important to Wales. It involves not only her language but her culture as well. I will not say that the Lord President of the Council is "a little Londoner." All the same, I think that he is. I have great respect for the partiality which he has for the Cockney way of life—we have in all parts of the Committee. I have been told recently that there is a good deal of the Celt in the Cockney, and perhaps that explains why they are such attractive people. The right hon. Gentleman would not tolerate any attempt to interfere with the Cockney way of life, and I "want him to understand that the people of Wales will not tolerate any attempt to interfere—and this may be a very serious threat—with the Welsh way of life. I hope, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman who is to reply will give us an undertaking that whenever an inquiry is set up the question of a Welsh Corporation shall be on the agenda
I believe that all the considerations that have been put forward in the Debate today are of very real importance and that they should have weighed far more heavily than they did in the scales when the Government decided against an inquiry. I
1124
hope that the Government will reconsider their decision to renew the charter for five years. The Lord President has said that he cannot keep the B.B.C. in suspense for one year, but the Government has already kept them in suspense for six months, and they now propose to keep them in suspense for another five years. It is impossible for the B.B.C. to make any long-term plan while matters of very great principle remain undecided. I hope that the Government may, therefore, agree to appoint an inquiry and to extend the charter for two years if they do not like to do so for one year. There is nothing sacrosanct about the period of one, two or five years. I hope very much that the right hon. Gentleman will meet the 200 Members who have signed the Motion now on the Order Paper. I believe that this is the appropriate time for an inquiry. The B.B.C. has an immense influence and power, and we should lay down the lines now on which they are to proceed in the future.
7.0 p.m.
Sir Ian Fraser: I find myself compelled to say that if unfortunately the Motion on the Paper should go to a Division I should vote against it. I propose to give my reasons as briefly as I can as well as make one or two general comments upon the B.B.C. I should not only vote against that Motion, but against the Motion which will be brought into the House in two or three years to initiate an inquiry by Royal Commission or other wise into the B.B.C. and the Press, when, perhaps, I may be found to be consistent in my attitude. May I examine some of the reasons given for an inquiry? It has been said by the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Henderson Stewart), who opened the Debate, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) that the B.B.C. was subject to pressure groups. I have had the honour of sitting on the Board of the B.B.C. for the last ten years with a slight intermission at the beginning of the war when the Board was done away with. I can assure the Committee from personal experience—and this I know would he the unanimous opinion of all my colleagues on the two Boards on which I sat—that time and time again we have either ignored or we have stood up against the hundred and one different kinds of pressure brought to bear upon us. We stood up against the Government—and it is

1125
supremely important to the Members of this Committee who cherish the freedom and independence of broadcasting to encourage the Governors and give them powers to enable them if need be to stand up against Governments.
The hon. Lady the Member for Anglesey (Lady Megan Lloyd-George) made a really good case for the inquiry. She suggested that we should have red hot controversy on the B.B.C., even debates now about bread rationing. I have consulted with the present chairman of the B.B.C. on this point, though I do not speak for him or any of his colleagues. However, he is aware of what I am going to say. There was an occasion during the latter part of the war when the right hon. Member for Bournemouth as Minister of Information came to the B.B.C. and supported a plea from one of the Ministers of the Government, whose name I will not mention, that he should be allowed to broadcast about a Measure which he was just bringing before Parliament.
Mr. H. Morrison: Not me.
Sir I. Fraser: I am not saying who it was and there is no party point in it. The Minister was bringing a big Measure before Parliament, and he wanted to broadcast about it. The Minister of Information of that day supported him, but the Board of the B.B.C. stood up against the direction, pressure or request and refused to have it. This matter was coming up for debate in Parliament, and I do not believe that the B.B.C. should prejudice matters of State in Parliament by presenting strong controversies about them before they come to Parliament. I do not say that there should be no controversy; indeed, I think there should he plenty of it on current affairs, but not about affairs to be debated in this House. This declaration that the Board yields to pressure groups is unfair to the B.B.C. and the Governors.
It has been said by the hon. Member for East Fife that the foreign services were cut off and that there was no check on what went out. If that is so it is the responsibility of the Government, not of the B.B.C. But that is not so, because these services have not been cut off. They have been reduced because it is not necessary now to pour out intensive propaganda all over the world as it was during war time. Broadcasting still remains the most powerful and, in my judgment, the
1126
most effective instrument for world wide diffusion of a nation's way of life that any country possesses, and the Governors and their staff should get full credit for that—not the right hon. Gentleman, as was so properly pointed out—because it was they who conducted the service throughout the war years.
On the question of policy, the hon. Member for Anglesey is fearful that the Foreign Office view is going to be behind overseas broadcasts. Surely that is undeniable and that is right. Fortunately, in this land there has in foreign affairs most generally been a very wide measure of agreement between the parties. We may now look back and think how clever some of us were because we thought differently five or ten years ago about this or that, but it is really true that the whole country had maggots in its head nine or ten years ago, but there was great unanimity about the foreign policy in those days, from which some Members like to run away now. Foreign broadcasts should be made in the closest possible liaison with the Foreign Office which has so much information and so much guidance to give. I do not want to start any controversy here except to make this one observation about the speech of the right hon. Member for Bournemouth. He says we ought to have more controversy, as if it were the B.B.C. which was holding back. I can assure him that that is not so and with the exception of controversy at a time when a matter is coming up for debate in Parliament, there is no witholding save the view of the broadcaster as to the amount of that particular kind of programme that the listener will accept.
Mr. Bracken: I am sorry for interrupting the hon. Gentleman, but I really do think that he is not doing any great service to the B.B.C. by ignoring certain facts. For instance, before the war, when the then right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) implored the Governors of the B.B.C. to give him an opportunity to state to the country the desperate dangers it was entering upon by the squalid policy of appeasement, the B.B.C. refused to give him an opportunity to speak.
Sir I. Fraser: That is unfortunately true, and since the matter has come out it is quite right that it should be ventilated. May I say that at that time the elder statesmen, of whom Lloyd George was

1127
one, the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) another and Sir Austen Chamberlain a third, all joined together in representing that there was too much subservience on the part of the B.B.C. to the Whips' Rooms in relation to party broadcasts. The B.B.C. was engaging in frank and fearless controversy, and it was putting on first one party and then the other, but it came to take advice from the Whips' Room as to who it should put on. The right hon. Member for Woodford, being unhappily not a white-headed boy of the Whips at that time, was frowned upon. It was very wrong that the Governors of that time—I was one of them—should have taken that view, but things looked so differently afterwards.
Which are the elder statesmen whom we would welcome now who do not belong to one party? Are there any Secretaries of State who are now out of office? I think men who have held the office of Secretary of State may have something to contribute to the country as long as they are not senile and are in possession of full vigour which enables them to broadcast. Will such a person come forward and give his views? It should be borne in mind that we cannot apply this doctrine backwards to the right hon. Member for Woodford without applying it forward in the future. Two Sundays ago the Lord President of the Council broadcast. I think that was a good piece of controversial broadcasting. It was not a national statement on national affairs. Not at all; it was an advertisement for himself and the Labour Party——
Mr. H. Morrison: As a matter of fact, I recall that there were two Conservative newspapers which "pulled my leg" because I paid compliments to private enterprise. That was supplemented by a Conservative Member of the House who, obviously, had better remain nameless lest he should also get into trouble. I said to him, "I was not controversial, was I?" and he replied, "Not at all. It was excellent. I enjoyed every word of it."
Sir I. Fraser: It could not have been as fair as that, or it would have been too dull to listen to. It contained most apt, timely, and, in my judgment, in view of what I have said about matters which are
1128
sub judice, improper pleading for the Government's rationing of bread Judged by my standards, it would have been far better had there been an answer to it. Why was there no answer to it? That is a question I can no longer answer because I am no longer a Governor of the B.B.C. Perhaps the present Governors have made it known that the Opposition and the Liberals may answer. I would like to hear the hon. Lady the Member for Anglesey "having a go"——
Mr. H. Morrison: She has plenty of goes.
Sir I. Fraser: Perhaps the Opposition parties have been asleep. Perhaps they have not been after this opportunity. I do not know. Let us know what the answers to these two questions are. It is quite clear to me that there could be no harm in the Lord President's speech, even though it was at 9.15 on a Sunday night, provided the Opposition parties had an equal chance.
What I fear about this inquiry is that the motive for it arises from various thoughts which have not been carefully considered. There is the sort of feeling among Members in the House—and its intensity varies according to which side Members happen to sit on, and not according to which party they belong—that the B.B.C. must be against it. During the war, the Labour Party complained that the B.B.C. was periodically capitalistic and all the rest of it, and the Tory Party complained that it was "red." Believe me, the B.B.C. is editorially minded. The best men are found for the job, men of integrity and high honour, as well as of great ability. They get their news from the tapes; they get their views from persons whom they pick with the sole object of having those views presented not merely from both sides, but from three or four sides of the picture. They do not set out to propagand any gospel of the Right or the Left.
It has been said—and although some of my hon. Friends on this side may not like this remark, I do not mean it in any offensive sense—that the Tories feel, and do not think. Of course, it is not true. A great many of them think, but there is something in it when a great body of opinion in the country does feel certain things. For the last 20 years the Leftish view has been under-represented in our

1129
Press. Three, four or five newspapers give the other point of view to one Leftish point of view, yet the Leftish view has grown until, today, it is undoubtedly widely felt. It is a great shock to a person who has always read the Daily Mail "suddenly to hear an organisation like the B.B.C., something which he thinks is august, British, and much to be admired, put out a statement which he would have read in the "Daily Herald" if he knew that it existed, but did not know existed. Indeed, it did not exist 20 years ago. Remember that. It is only in the last 20 years that the "Daily Herald" has had more than a twopenny ha'penny circulation. When the Press of the Left is so under-represented it comes as a great shock to this right minded person to hear the kind of stuff that we on these benches have heard for 20 years, until we are sick and tired of it, coming out of the loudspeaker which he has paid for, and cherishes so highly. That being so, he says that the B.B.C. must be Left. He thinks that there is a machine there, a deadly thing at work deliberately trying to propagand people in a certain direction. It is not true. What the B.B.C. does is to represent the views of people as if you were to roll all the newspapers into one, so that you get a bit of this and that and, on the whole, a fair picture. At least, that is my view.
It is said that this inquiry is for the purpose of pleasing the B.B.C. I do not believe it for a moment. Not that they would shirk it, but I am fully convinced that that is quite untrue. It would be most disturbing to them to have it now, because it is not the right time for it. I will not go over the arguments again, but I concur in the case made by the Government for not having the inquiry now. I go further. We are entering upon a time when more and more of our services—unhappily, in all cases save this one, and similar inevitable monopolies; and I believe this is an inevitable monopoly—are to he controlled by public corporations. There is coal and transport. I do not defend the measures being applied to these trading and operating services, but if they are to work it will be a mistake to have one inquiry after another. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth says that it should he the absolute rule that there should be an inquiry every time the Charter is renewed, and, I suppose, an
1130
inquiry every 10 years about every service that has been nationalised.
Mr. Bracken: I hope so.
Sir I. Fraser: We may have an inquiry about the London Passenger Transport Board every 10 years and, no doubt, about the Port of London Authority. Before we know where we are we shall have made as many jobs in inquiries, and secretaries to look after them, as we have made in the various services themselves. There should be an inquiry into an important and powerful organisation like this, or any powerful cause or controversy, when a special case has been made out. It should not become a regular feature of our life to disturb a well-run and deserving concern at intervals. I am sorry that the Conservative Party, with its allies, the National Liberals, should be pressing this matter. During the war, the Governors of the B.B.C. were subject to a special undertaking which they gave to the Minister of Information, when they were appointed, that they would take his directives in all matters relating to the prosecution of the war. That was necessary, and there was a good understanding between the Governors and various Ministers. I do not think it was abused on either side. But it is not necessary now, and I want to ask specifically whether any undertaking has been asked from the present Governors of the B.B.C. I hope that the Minister who is to reply will be able to say that no undertaking was asked for and none was given. It is very important that that should he made public.
I want now to say a few words about the reporting of political affairs by the B.B.C. I think that the "Week in Westminster" programme has won its way, and that most hon. Members and a great many other people feel that it is an admirable programme. In my time as a Governor, we were often urged to allow journalists instead of Members of Parliament to do the "Week in Westminster". It may well be that a few professional journalists would do it better than a great many amateurs, but the view which we took, and one which, I hope, will commend itself to the House, was that, quite apart from the merits of a great many of the Parliamentary speakers of all parties as broadcasters, there was the fact that they were themselves Members of Parliament, that they sat here, that they spoke

1131
of the House and from the House, as it were, and that this added personality to the speeches and gave people not only a comment upon Parliament week by week, but some idea of the personalities who sat in Parliament. I hope very much that the B.B.C.will continue to use Members of Parliament as reporters rather than to turn the programme over to professionals. How are those Members of Parliament chosen? I have often been asked that question. They are chosen, not by reference to the Whips Office, but in just the same way as a newspaper chooses the person whom it thinks will write an article best. There is a rota which gives a place to the parties in accordance with their numbers in the House, including the minority parties—even the hon. Member for—[An HON. MEMBER: "East Fife."] —no, the more colourful one, the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), who made a very good speech.
With regard to television, it is being paid for now out of the £10 million which will be raised from the 10 million licence fees. Television as well as sound is being, paid for out of that sum, and relief is being given to the B.B.C. by its not having to pay any more for the Overseas Service. I do not think there will be enough money for television in a few years' time, and particularly will that be the case if we have inflation creeping on and putting up prices. I would, however, like to congratulate the Government upon raising the fee from 10s. to £1. To do that required a little political courage; the Government had it, and they were quite right to raise the fee. That, and that alone, can give the B.B.C. anything like enough revenue to be independent of a Parliamentary Vote. I consider this to be very important indeed.
A comparison is often made between British and American broadcasting. In my considered judgment, based upon some experience of listening in both countries, some of the high spots of the American programmes are brighter and better than some of ours, but there is no question that, over the hours of the day and night, for sustained good quality of broadcasting, there is nothing as good as our service. One most compare the broad over-all service that is given rather than pick out some high spot here and there. On the question of wavelengths,
1132
I hope the Government will be really tough in the battle for wavelengths. Certainly, we want two more wavelengths so as to enable the Western region to be separated again. It is not right that the Government, in their desire to conduct propaganda and to show overseas the British way of life—that is a Government service—should do so by taking away a wavelength from the Home listeners. The Government must be tough in this matter. While we did not enter the war for any gain, while we do not wish to accept any reparations, I do not see why we should not have one of the German wavelengths.
It is not true, as the right hon. Member for Bournemouth said, that this service slipped into being a monopoly almost by mistake because of the report of some committee 25 years ago. It was 20 years ago, as a matter of fact, and at that time there were a very large number of listeners. A commission of inquiry was set up by the House, evidence was taken over five or six months, and it was a deliberate choice of the Crawford Committee. I had the honour to sit on that Committee, on which there were three Members of the House, one from each party. That Committee deliberately chose to recommend the setting up this new type of public corporation. The men who set it up, the men who controlled it, the men who engineered it, and Parliament, which has supported and sustained it in many Debates and by much thought—all of us—which means this country—may well be proud, not only of the service which has been rendered, but of this new type of public corporation which has been found capable of expressing our will, our thoughts, our ideals and our aims in this new medium so effectively and so well. Even those of us who are controversial politicians may be raised, by some event beyond our control, to sit on the Judges' bench or in the Chair, and when that happens we are able to cast off party affiliations, to which we have been proud to be tied in the past, and to become quasi-judicial people. So can the Governors of the B.B.C. do it. If we give them, as the House gives them, all our trust, and if worthy men and women are appointed, I am sure the B.B.C. will not run into the danger of becoming a totalitarian service. I end by giving my sincere thanks and praise to all members of the B.B.C. with whom

1133
I have worked during these past 10 years, and I do not qualify my remark as regards any one of them.
7.27 p.m.
Mr. Haydn Davies: I had intended, if I was lucky enough to be called in this Debate, to confine my remarks entirely to broadcasting, and not to mention any other form of entertainment or news; but almost all hon. Members who have spoken so far have been kind enough to make references to the subject-matter of a Motion on newspapers standing in my name and the names of about 100 other hon. Members on this side of the Committee——
[That, in the opinion of this House, it is expedient that steps should be taken to investigate the ownership and control of the Press; the extent of monopolistic tendencies in the ownership of chains or groups of newspapers, and the influence of financial and advertising interests on the presentation and suppression of news.
—and therefore, the two points have become linked together. I may say at once that it was a matter of extreme gratification to hear the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) give his views on the freedom of the Press. It was both enlightening and refreshing. It really will be front-page news in certain newspapers tomorrow morning that the mantle of John Milton has floated from North Paddington to Bournemouth.
Mr. Bracken: Buried in the chine.
Mr. Davies: I would remind the right hon. Member, when he is giving these views on the freedom of the Press, that we believe that the freedom of the Press is freedom to publish the truth——
Mr. Bracken: Hear, hear.
Mr. Davies:—and I hope that, having had the right hon. Gentleman's endorsement of that remark, he will convey it to the appropriate quarters, because we on this side of the Committee believe that his relations with foreign Powers continue to be friendly. In these words, if the right hon. Gentleman is speaking for those who control the newspapers, I at any rate can speak for those who write for them. The freedom of the Press is tied up with the freedom of the air, and therefore, this Debate on broadcasting is of fundamental importance
1134
to the whole question of expression, entertainment, news and information. I am bound to ask from this side of the Committee why there should be this sudden demand for an inquiry into the B.B.C. only. If we were told that there should be an inquiry into a monopoly, I could understand it, but from all the arguments we have heard from the other side, it appears that this is to be an inquiry into the B.B.C. because it is a State monopoly. If a monopoly is bad, it does not matter whether it is State or private; there should be inquiry into all monopolies.
Mr. Bracken: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman because I know that he is navigating very difficult waters, and I do not want to add to his troubles, but he must remember that the B.B.C. is created by Parliament, whereas the other institutions to which he is referring owe nothing to this Parliament. I think he should make that sharp difference, much as I sympathise with him in his navigation.
Mr. Davies: I am most grateful for that instructive and illuminating account of the development of State and private enterprise and, after all, who should know more about the development of the B.B.C. than the right hon. Gentleman? He was present at its birth.
Mr. Bracken: No
Mr. Davies: Those associated with the right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench were certainly there and were responsible for it. Surely if it is fair to say that the B.B.C. is wrong because it is a State monopoly, and that there should be an inquiry into it, then we arc entitled to say that there should also be an inquiry into private monopolies.
Mr. Bracken: Like the National Union of Journalists.
Mr. Davies: The National Union of Journalists is not a monopoly——
Mr. Bracken: A closed shop.
Mr. Davies: On the contrary. We have had a ballot and have amalgamates. with the Institute of Journalists.
Mr. Bracken: A monopoly.
Mr. Davies: With one exception only; we accepted those members of that organisation who were working journalists

1135
and not newspaper proprietors. But this is not the moment to discuss the closed shop, although I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving me, on behalf of the National Union of Journalists, an opportunity of saying how much we believe in it. In fact, the right hon. Gentleman is helping me all the way along.
Mr. J. Langford-Holt: On a point of Order, Major Milner. Would it be out of Order to discuss broadcasting at this stage?
The Chairman: Yes, I should be glad if the hon. Member and indeed all hon. Members would confine themselves to broadcasting alone.
Mr. Davies: But for the able assistance of the right hon. Member for Bournemouth I would have been discussing broadcasting at least five minutes ago. I suspect that the real reason behind this demand for an inquiry for the B.B.C. only—and no one on these benches would deny the need for such an inquiry—is the fact that we now have a Labour Government and not a Tory Government in power. It is a curious thing that a few months after the Tory Party had spent its whole energy in attempting to destroy the trade unions and in bringing out the "British Gazette," in a moment of recuperation and possibly to salve their consciences, They nationalised a private company, and made it a public corporation, namely, the B.B.C. They have been perfectly satisfied with it ever since. If there should be an inquiry at this moment, the person to blame is the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth. The Lord President of the Council has said that the Ullswater inquiry took 14 months; what he omitted to say, or what he possibly did not want to tell the Committee, was that the Ullswater Committee was set up 20 months before the Charter was due to expire. If the right hon. Gentleman will count back 20 months, he will find that it takes him to the time when he was responsible for what we in Fleet Street called "The Mystery of Misinformation." Therefore, if he is so determined to have this inquiry into the B.B.C., even on the analogy of the Ullswater Committee the deadline was May, 1945, but he did nothing at all about it and it is too late now to
1136
expect this Government to have an inquiry and alter the dates of the Charter of the B.B.C. in elastic fashion, because of his inefficiency and failure to deal with the matter at the appropriate moment.
We may go even further and say that when we do have an inquiry it is going to be a real one. This leads me to one point which I must raise—again on the question of the National Union of Journalists, but this time dealing only with the B.B.C. and therefore, I submit, in Order. On page 9 of the White Paper there is a statement on the Corporation's staff joint consultative machinery, and I must tell the Lord President that it is not good enough.
Mr. Bracken: The hon. Gentleman will have to go outside the House if he wants to tell the Lord President.
Hon. Members: He is in the House.
Mr. Davies: The misinformation obviously persists. The statement runs as follows:
" The Government consider that, in staff matters, the Corporation should retain the general independence which it now possesses, and Government control should be restricted to laying down broad limits of policy within which it should work;"
Later the statement continues:
" The Government consider, moreover, that there should be adequate machinery between the Board of Governors and the staff for the settlement by negotiation of terms and conditions of employment… "
The position inside the B.B.C. at the moment is that they will recognise the National Union of Journalists or any other trade union, but will not recognise branches of those unions within the B.B.C. itself. Thus there is the crazy position that if a member of the staff of the B.B.C. employed in a news department wishes to make a complaint, he has to go to the general secretary of the National Union of Journalists, who in turn has to write to the Director-General. So we have this clumsy machinery whereas everyone engaged in industry knows that the simple way of settling disputes is through the man on the spot, the branch secretary, the foreman and so on. If we are to have this new Clause inserted in the Charter I ask the Government to make certain that while the British Broadcasting Corporation recognise trade unions it is not good enough that representations should be made only to the head offices

1137
of those unions but that the members of the staff belonging to the unions should be recognised as an entity working inside the Corporation. I am certain that by means of drafting that provision could easily be made, and it would satisfy not only the N.U.J. but every other trade union in this country.
I have made the points I wished to bring forward and once again I express my gratitude to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bournemouth. I repeat what I said at the beginning, namely, that if we are to tamper with freedom of expression of any kind it must be universal and must not apply only to one instrument owned by the State and not to those owned by private enterprise.
7.39 p.m.
Mr. W. J. Brown: It seems to me that it is possible to look at this problem of the British Broadcasting Corporation Charter, and at the question whether or not we ought to extend it, from two points of view—that of principle and that of the experience of practice. I should like to say something about the principles involved in this question of the B.B.C. and something about my own experience of its practice. I shall then draw the conclusion that the arguments which have been advanced this afternoon should be supported, and that there should be an inquiry into the B.B.C.
First, I hold the view that, in any kind of monopoly, there is danger. Second, I always have held the view that, of all forms of monopoly, a monopoly in the instruments which mould public opinion is the most dangerous. Third, that the wider the area of economic life that is controlled by the Government, the more dangerous becomes any monopoly in the means of moulding the public opinion of the nation. In other words, a monopoly of broadcasting is worse in Soviet Russia than a monopoly of broadcasting in capitalist America. The closer the hold of the Government on the life of the community the more important it is that there should be channels through which the community can express itself freely and critically. I hope that I shall carry with me on that point most hon. Members on the Government Benches. The fourth point of principle is that the cure for monopoly may not be the creation of a super-monopoly, but the destruction of monopoly.
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What is the situation today? The Government ask us to extend the charter of a monopoly in perhaps the most vital means of influencing the public opinion of the country. They ask us to do it at a time when the area of State control over the life of the nation is being steadily extended from week to week and from month to month. They ask us to do it without any kind of preliminary inquiry whatever. On the issues of principle, I pronounce the position of the Government on this matter wrong, and the position of those who ask for a preliminary inquiry right.
I turn from the questions of principle. I would say to the hon. Member for South-West St. Pancras (Mr. Haydn Davies), who so skilfully represents the N.U.J.—National Union of Journalists—which stands for a principle which I so much detest, the principle of the '' closed shop "—that, if he will forgive me for saying so the Government are not going to get away from this B.B.C, issue by pointing a finger somewhere else.
Mr. Haydn Davies: I hate to interrupt the hon. Member, but I must point out that the question of an inquiry into the Press is the subject of a separate Motion on the Order Paper, and has no reference to this Debate.
Mr. Brown: Anybody who listened to the speech made by the hon. Member would have wondered whether anything else hut the subject of that Motion about the Press was in Order in this Debate. If he referred to broadcasting in his speech I am confident he did it entirely accidentally. The point is simple. The issue is whether we ought or ought not to extend the Charter of the B.B.C. without an inquiry. Hon. Members will give their answers. My answer is "No." But we should give that answer without any reference whatever to any other kind of monopoly, if it exists. I hope to see the Government break up all sorts of monopolies. There are many to which I can direct their attention. It may be that there is reason for an inquiry into the public Press. I certainly think there is such a case for inquiry into the totalitarianism of the Press of the "Left," which is an exceedingly formidable thing. We are reaching a stage where a free man can write freely only in the capitalist Press.
Dr. Morgan: Nonsense.
Mr. Brown: There are some papers of the Left in which you can write only if you are a member of the party. They are applying the principle of the "closed shop"—but, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, I will leave that point. We ought not to be deflected from the harsh merits or demerits of the issue of whether we should extend the Charter or not, by criticism directed against the Press or anything else. I hold that the present B.B.C. Charter does not work well in certain respects, and I am not, therefore, willing to extend that Charter, if I have anything to do with it, without a preliminary inquiry into these and other matters.
My first criticism is that the B.B.C., if it is not under the control of the Government, which of course it is, is very much under the control of the Whips' Office of this House. I say that from my own experience of the B.B.C. and I will try to prove what I have said. Before I went to America in 1941 I was practically the blue-eyed boy of the B.B.C. I did a great deal of broadcasting for them. I never had the slightest difficulty with my scripts. Whatever I wrote they were anxious to have—and, if I may say so, they "knew their onions." I had no difficulty at all. [An HON. MEMBER: "You always write to order."] I should have thought that that was the last thing which any hon. Member on the Government side ought to say of me. [HON. MEMBERS: Withdraw."] We should not be diverted by that rather malicious and silly interruption. I would like to be allowed to get on.
The Deputy-Chairman (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): It would be as well if hon. Members were to address the Chair.
Mr. Brown: Before I went to America, I published an article in the "Sunday Pictorial" calling for candidates to fight by-elections. That was during the war. When I came back from America, I fought a by-election at Rugby and won it. From that day onwards I had nothing but trouble from the B.B.C. It bothered me a great deal. Finally I went to see them. This is what transpired—and when I am told that the B.B.C. is not susceptible to pressure groups and the rest of it, I denounce those statements as nonsense. This is what I was told by the the B.B.C.: They said, "The circumstance that a man is a bad broad-
1140
caster enables us to keep him oft, provided he does not hold office. The circumstance that he is a good broadcaster does not of itself enable us to put him on, because other things have to be taken into account. For example, if there are too many Members of the Labour Party broadcasting there is a row from the Tory machine. If there are too many Tories broadcasting there is a protest from the Labour machine. If, however, an Independent broadcasts, even if he does it superlatively well, there is a chorus of protests from both parties! "After that experience it is no good asking me to believe that the B.B.C. operates in an atmosphere of impartial detachment from party ties and loyalties.
Mr. Blackburn: Surely the hon. Member remembers that Independent Members of this House have had a disproportionately large share of broadcasting. The hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Bartlett) is almost the sole adviser on foreign policy to the B.B.C. The hon. Member for——
Mr. Brown: I take the point. As the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) said in this House during the war, the hon. Member for Bridgwater is much less a Member of Parliament than he is a journalist and a broadcaster. His journalistic and broadcasting reputation was established long before he came to this House, and he has continued to carry on with that journalistic and broadcasting work. That case does not answer what I have just said. That is my first criticism—that improper pressure is wrongfully applied to the B.B.C. from the party organisations of this country.
My second point is that there is no room in the B.B.C for heresy, and the intellectual life of the nation depends on there being a reasonable freedom for heresy. It is timely that I should say this, because as we progress towards totalitarianism the position of the heretic will get more and more difficult, as we have seen in the history of Russia, until finally the expression of heresy, as in the case of Trotsky, may bring a pickaxe down across one's head. It is vital to the intellectual life of the community that there should be fertilising, stimulating heresy given freedom of expression through the instruments of public opinion in this country. If hon. Members do not believe me. I beg them to read Shaw, the

1141
prophet of heresy, on the necessity of sustaining freedom for heresy. In "Saint Joan" he states the classic case for tolerating the heretic and not trying to suppress him and burn him at the stake. That is my second charge—that the set-up of the B.B.C. is such that there is no room for heresy. When I broadcast in America—I did a good deal when I was there—[Interruption.] Again I take the point, but surely the best experience on which to argue is one's own personal experience.
Dr. Morgan: With due modesty.
Mr. Brown: I cherish the privilege of pride, and I do not ask the permission of the hon. Member to express it. He is a member of the medical profession, but I suspect that he is an indifferent psychologist. One of the by-products of the system of commercial broadcasting is that heresy does come out over the air. In America, if one cannot sell one's stuff to one wireless corporation, one can sell it to another. But in exactly the same way as the growth of the chain newspaper makes independent journalism more and more difficult in Britain, so the creation of monopoly in wireless makes independent broadcasting more and more difficult. There is vastly more freedom over the American radio than there is over the British radio at the present time. The toleration of heresy, which I demand as a social necessity, is not consistent with a State monopoly in broadcasting.
Next, I argue that the character of the period which we are entering lends even greater importance to this matter than it possessed a few years ago. It will not be denied by hon. Members opposite that it is their intention to bring under public control a wider and wider area of the economic life of Britain. If their programme does not mean that, it does not mean anything at all, and that is. in fact, the broad programme of the Government. I hold that there are certain limits which ought not to be transcended in that regard. When more people are employed by the State than are not employed by the State, from that point freedom begins to disappear completely. I regard that as axiomatic. There can be no freedom in a totalitarian State, whether it is nominally Fascist or nominally Communist. [Interruption.] The trouble is that my heresy is so stimulating that when I speak
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private fights break out all over the place. If that is the broad character of the period which we are entering, I beg hon. Members opposite to take firm hold of a few fundamental elementary freedoms. The first of these elementary freedoms is the right to free speech, whether on a platform or over the air.
I agree with what the hon. Member who has just spoken said about staff conditions at the B.B.C. There should be free trade unionism in the B.B.C. just as we ought to have free trade unionism in the police force. I hope hon. Members opposite will remember this. I have been urging the Government for months past to restore freedom there. There ought to be freedom of organisation, freedom of association, freedom of arbitration, with an obligation on the B.B.C. to accept the results of the arbitration when it is through. All these things together constitute a case to justify our saying that we are not prepared to continue this Charter for another five years, and that we will extend it for one year, two years or such time as may be necessary to have this inquiry. But we intend to have this inquiry to consider the social problems which are involved, as well as the technical and other problems. After that, we should take our decision as to what the longterm future of broadcasting in Britain is to be. Meantime, I support the Motion that there should be a committee of inquiry.
7.58 p.m.
Mr. Leslie Hale: I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Brown) in the modest contribution with which he has enlivened, if not enriched, this Debate. I am sorry after encomiums have been lavished on the B.B.C. to introduce a jaundiced note. I must at once confess in fairness that I am one of those who regard the knob on the wireless with which you can turn the broadcast off, as by far the most valuable portion of the set. Although I appreciate to the full and sympathised with a great deal of what has been said by the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Stewart) as to the importance of this very great instrument and its great potential value in the joy which it can bring into the lives of those who may otherwise live a rather restricted existence, I am bound to say that I am by no means satisfied with the programmes given. The late Mr. John Tilley, in a monologue entitled "The

1143
Company Promoter," used to introduce a balance sheet in respect of which the auditors said," This balance sheet is correct in every detail with the exception of the figures." I would say of the B.B.C. that this institution is admirable in every way with the exception of the programme. I know that there are good items occasionally. Every now and then I fail to get the programme turned off because the majority of my family are against me. Then I hear elaborate jokes about a gentleman named Shadwell who suffers, as I and many other highly distinguished Members of the House do, from a lack of hair on top, or I hear a lady caterwauling at great length about "stormy weather."
I sympathise with those hon. Members who said that there is something in the nature of a censorship, something in the nature of a timidity and a complete lack of approach to the broad controversial issues of life on which people ought to have guidance and information. I believe it is still there The hon. Member for East Fife made an appeal that the British way of life should be put. I do not want to introduce lines which, however beautiful, are very much hackneyed, but if one considers for a moment the very well known lines:
" All our past acclaims our future Shakespeare's voice and Nelson's hand Milton's trust…"
Before one goes any further, one begins to wonder just what would happen with the B.B.C. Because, you know, if those people were all contemporaries today, Shakespeare—the author of "Venus and Adonis," the man who was suspected of carrying on with Anne Hathaway, and was not above poaching rabbits—I am perfectly serious—would be given five minutes on Saturday night on "Holding Horses in Eastcheap." Nelson, who had an unhappy experience with Lady Hamilton—or, I believe, a very happy one—could not be considered until at least he had been given his peerage. Milton, of course, could not be considered at all; he was a Radical and he was political; it would be quite impossible to bring him on unless he were brought in, we will say, for five minutes under strict guard in the Brains Trust, but next week he would probably be dropped for the hon. Member for South Edinburgh (Sir W. Darling). The author of those famous lines, of course—Algernon Charles
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Swinburne—had a most unfortunate attachment for a circus rider and, it is said, of a non-Platonic nature. Of course, that would completely eliminate him from the possibility of participating in a programme at all. That should not be so. I say seriously that the great men and the great minds of this generation never get on the wireless at all. I apologise to the hon. Member for Rugby—he says that he has been on the air.
If it be said that it is a question of finance, I want to deal with finance because these figures have not been tackled. In the Charter of 1936 the then Postmaster-General—I think it was Major Tryon—said that the income had been settled at £2,800,000, 75 per cent. of the revenue of the then licences. Since then, that 75 per cent. has been put up to 90 per cent., and the number of subscribers has, of course, very greatly increased. Today, 90 per cent. of the income is likely to produce something like £9 million. We are not doubling the amount we are contributing, we are multiplying it by more than three, and when cars come back on the road with radio sets, and £2 is charged for a combined television and wireless licence, there will be a still bigger revenue. The result is that there will be an income of something like £25,000 a day, and we are entitled to ask what we get from it. In my respectful submission we do not get nearly as much as we should.
I want to say one brief word on the controversial subject of religious broadcasting. The Committee will remember that when the late Lord Chancellor Thurlow received a deputation on the Test Act, it was in a typical manner. He said that he regretted very much the attitude of the deputation. I cannot give the Committee the robust language of the late Lord Chancellor, but what he said, roughly, was this: "I do not agree with you. I am for the Established Church. Not that I have any special regard for the Established Church, except that it is Established, and if you get your religion Established, I would be for that too." With respect, that is an attitude of mind, and I say quite seriously that minority religions with comparatively small numbers of adherents do not get a right of hearing over the B.B.C., and I say that they should. I do not know whether one can have a financial interest in religion,

1145
but I happen to be the solicitor to the National Spiritualist Union. I am not a spiritualist and I have never been to a seance in my life, but I act as their legal adviser. They tell me that they have been trying for years—and whatever the views of individual Members, they have many adherents in the House and a very large and increasing number of adherents throughout the country—to have the right to represent their views intelligently over the B.B.C. and they have never yet been accorded that right once, except as part of a purely controversial——
Mr. Cluse: And the Rationalists.
Mr. Hale: I agree. Really the B.B.C. would be stronger if all points of view were put. I am prepared to accept the reasons given by the Lord President for postponing an inquiry until after the wavelength conference, and I shall support the Government in a Division on this, but I want to reinforce the demand for as early and full an inquiry as is reasonably practical, and I hope it will not be long delayed. I hope also that it will cover the entire range of matters. It should cover the question of copyright. For example, we make certain exceptions even now. Our great libraries have a right to "issue copies" of certain books that we publish. It may be quite impracticable that any such suggestion should apply to the B.B.C., but at least there should be consideration as to whether the copyright was operating adversely upon them, and whether there might be any special variation in that way. There should be a comprehensive and a full inquiry, directed into seeing that this great national instrument can remain free, as it must remain free, to put forward the British way of life to the British people and to our Colonies and to the Dominions and throughout the world.
8.7 p.m.
Mr. Piekthorn: I have done my best to listen to all this Debate and I think I have followed almost all the arguments. I hope that the Committee will find me fair when I suggest that there really have been three arguments, and I think only three, against the suggestion that there ought to be an inquiry before the renewal of the Charter; or if not before the renewal of
1146
the Charter, at the earliest practicable moment. I think there have been two minor arguments and one major argument. The two minor arguments have been these: first, that there is not time now; secondly, that the Opposition ought to have asked for it sooner and louder. I hope that the Committee will not think either of those two arguments very weighty. If there is not time now, the Government might have thought of it sooner; if there is not time now, then it is possible to renew the Charter for one year or two years in order to make time. Really, I do not think that that argument ought to have been pressed as much as it has been, and I hope that the Committee will not be impressed by it.
Nor, I hope, will the Committee be very much impressed by the argument that there ought to have been earlier and louder shouting from this side for an inquiry, because I think most of the people who made the accusation, except the Lord President, are mostly people who were not in the last Parliament. The fact is that all through the last Parliament almost, certainly through the second part of it, there were almost continual suggestions that one of the first things that ought to be done in the postwar reconstruction period was that there should be a full inquiry into broadcasting in this country. It was asked for over and over again by some hon. Gentlemen who sit on that side of the Committee, whose names I could give, but I have forgotten their constituencies in some cases. It was asked for over and over again—if it is not egotism on my part to say so—by myself and my closer political friends, and we have asked for it now and then since this Parliament was elected. If we have not asked as effectively or as loudly, if we have not run off with the Mace as often as we might have done, then I do not really think that is a very serious argument for saying that there ought not to be an inquiry.
Those are the two minor arguments, and I hope we shall not pay too much attention to them. Now I come to the major argument. The Lord President of the Council seemed to me to have one argument and one only. The rest consisted very largely of what are called "tributes" and to some extent—apparently after some reminder from me—of the usual speech that is obligatory in this Committee—without which a Debate would now be inadequate, the speech about the size of the Govern-

1147
ment's majority, and the width of its Mandate. Incidentally, about the tributes, I often wonder whether we might not perhaps have one day per Session—I think it had better be exempted business so that we could go on as long as we liked—in which we could each pay tributes to all the rest of us, and to everybody else. That would save a great deal of time on other Debates. At least one of the right hon. Gentleman's tributes today seemed to me to be extremely misplaced. One of the drawbacks to this tribute-paying habit is that it is not in Order to answer them. It would often be ungracious to the person to whom the tribute was paid, and it would generally be out of Order.
The right hon. Gentleman's only main argument as far as I could follow him was that there are not enough wavelengths and that therefore we cannot have anything much different from what we have now. We have to stick to it and like it. That really was the whole of the argument. I am not either a scientist or a technician, but I have moved amongst such people all my life and have heard what they have said on this and other subjects. My impression is the opposite to that of the right hon. Gentleman. I rather gathered that the hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon-Walker) took the same view. I think there are now technical means available by which it would be possible to give a far greater variety of programmes than is given. I do not set up my opinion against that of the Lord President, but I say that it is possible and reasonable to take that view. I do not think the Charter should be renewed without having an inquiry as to which of the two opinions is right, because on the answer to that question depend all the other questions.
The importance of this matter is much greater than ever before. Newspapers are smaller than they have ever been, more people listen to the wireless, and there are fewer words in the newspapers, and fewer books to be bought. Books go out of print quicker than they used to, and foreign books can hardly be bought. We are threatened by the Lord President—he watered it down at one time—that the Government are going to stop us listening to foreign broadcasts, if not by jamming, by some other way. All our cultural connections with foreigners are much weaker now than they ever were before.
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It is a paradoxical and rather frightening moment in history in which every one talks as if we had become, I will not say international, but supra-national, with every one communicating with each other, and understanding each other, at the very moment when it is far more difficult than ever to communicate with foreigners, difficult to visit them or bring them here or to buy their books and pictures. You can buy moving pictures and pay sterling for them, but to buy a picture in Paris one has to go to all sorts of trouble and difficulties. The result of that is that international intellectual contacts are more and more canalised and narrowed in the hands of public and semi-public institutions more or less well intentioned but all tending to narrowness, like the British Council, and that thing with the horrible collection of initials —U.N.E.S.C.O.—which sounds like a patent tinned milk. The Government are stopping us from spending sterling, and they are spending our money to find out what foreigners think, and write, and paint, and are doing it less efficiently than we should do it, because most of us might be wrong most of the time but at least some of us would be right at any one time. These well intentioned Government agencies are never right in such intellectual matters for long. However well you set them up, they have an essential and unavoidable principle of degeneracy inside them which rots and poisons and festers. For that reason it is more important than ever that radio communications should be properly used, fully used, fairly used, and therefore the earlier the inquiry which is now clearly overdue can be, the better.
I was extremely astonished by the hon. Member for Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser), who told us we have had- many Debates on broadcasting. We have been told in parts of the Debate that many inquiries have been held into broadcasting, and at another point we were told that there were no precedents for inquiry. There have been very few Debates on wireless broadcasting. I have not looked up the records but I could make a bet with anyone that they cannot think of more than one or two. The one I can think of was killed by the abdication crisis and by a ridiculous law suit whose name I have forgotten affecting someone called Lambert, I think. Apart from that one, there have been practically no Debates on broadcasting in the last three Parliaments. That

1149
makes it all the more necessary that there should be inquiry, and inquiry soon.
If one looks at the Reports, one finds that there has really been almost no general inquiry into broadcasting. People speak now of the Ullswater Report as Holy Writ but at the time it was damned and blasted into heaps, especially by the B.B.C. Governors, before we had a chance of looking at it. Whatever else might be said about the Ullswater Report, when this White Paper talks about its being thorough and broad-based, it was not thorough and not broad-based. It said itself that it left out the wavelength question and broadcasting by foreign states. It left out the biggest question of all, it assumed that there must be one broadcasting system, and only one; and never raised the question of whether there might be more than one. I suggest to the Committee that any two radio systems in this country would be better than any one. I say this in spite of the fact that someone will probably tear it from its context and use it against me—two had systems might be better than one good system, because there is some chance when you have two that in time you might get one excellent system, whereas with one tolerable system it is practically certain that that is the best system you will ever get. The idea of two or more systems is an idea which an honest and intelligent man may hold and for which there is much to be said. Into that suggestion there has never been a full inquiry and it seems to me quite nonsensical to pretend that it is now too late, and even more nonsensical to pretend that it is now too soon. Any argument whether we ought to ask for a Select Committee or a Royal Commission—which I would be inclined to prefer—or whether we should shout louder, and whether from a Front Bench or a back bench—all these arguments seem irrelevant.
If there are to be, and I think there ought to be, more than one radio system in this country—and I believe there will not long be freedom otherwise—is there really a terrific objection to what is called "sponsoring"? I do not think there is. It is certainly not true that earlier inquiries always reported against it as strongly as is always assumed. What they reported was that there would not be any harm in occasional concerts and what not preceded or succeeded by the bare
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statement" This is on the air by tae generosity 'of the Pickthorn Toothbrush Company," or whatever it might be. It has been recommended that the B.B.C. should experiment with this sort of thing but it has not been done. I believe the objection comes partly from the superstition that it has always been reported against, and partly from the extreme snobbishness and old-fashionedness so characteristic of hon. Members opposite. They really cannot believe that anything to do with business and trade is really befitting a gentleman, or, if they prefer the term, a comrade. Those prejudices seem to be the main argument against some kind of sponsoring I have not the time to prove the proposition I am putting. [Interruption.] If hon. Members opposite provoke me I am perfectly capable of going on till 10. I think the proposition could be proved, but all I am asking is that the Committee should accept that the proposition is an arguable one, that there should be some kind of sponsoring system. If so, we are long overdue for a full inquiry into that.
There is only ore thing I wish to say —I hesitate to say it rather because much the same point was put—and I generally try not to be too repetitive—by the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown). I would ask hon. Gentlemen opposite to consider it carefully. I am not trying to make a party point when I say that I do not want to see a Socialist community in this country. I do not want to see public corporations, as they are called, which seem to have all the disadvantages of Socialist control, combined with complete irresponsibility by the people who really do the stuff. All this distinction, for example, between the general policy of the B.B.C. and its day-to-day work seems to me to be completely false, because it allows the people who do the stuff to get away without any real responsibility. The general policy of the B.B.C. is the day-to-day work of the people who choose the stuff, and the two are not distinguishable. Incidentally, the war has not been such an interruption to the B.B.C. as is generally pretended. It interrupted their news and talk sides, but that is not all of them by any means. All the educational side, which is not mentioned in the White Paper—[An HON. MEMBER: "It is."] I think not, or it is a very bare mention, if it is mentioned at all, that side and all the enter-

1151
tainment side have gone on during the war, and have not been interrupted.
The point which I beg hon. Gentlemen opposite to consider is this: They almost all, I think, believe themselves to be the evangelists of a new political dispensation which shall combine liberty with governmental control of all economic processes. I believe that most of them honestly believe themselves to be the evangelists of such a gospel. I think it is nonsense, in the strict sense, but I think they believe it. If so, I beg them to consider this: They have never faced, in any public Debate I have heard of, the difficulty that if you have a single authority controlling the production and distribution of all material goods, how on earth are you to have any freedom in the production and distribution of immaterial goods—ideas and sentiments? It is not an easy problem to answer, but if they do not answer it, they will not last long. There will be a human reaction against Socialism which will kick Socialism to smithereens. There certainly will, unless somehow they face that problem. I do beg them to consider whether, where there is a great human activity for diffusing ideas and sentiments like the radio, where there is such a thing in Government control, as this is admittedly wholly in Government control, it is not absolutely necessary, in the interests of what they themselves believe to be the truth, that such an instrument should be periodically reviewed in the most searching possible way, and improved in every possible way that can be shown at all likely to be a real improvement.
8.23 p.m.
Mr. Collins: I do not wish to follow the Senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) in his fascinating remarks on Socialism, although his views are as strange as the idea he put forward that two bad eggs might possibly be as good as one good one. I want to deal with one particular aspect of broadcasting policy which has been put forward, that concerned with regional broadcasting. The Lord President of the Council told us that it is the intention of the Government to encourage regional devolution, and in the White Paper, in Paragraph 15, I see that the Government have the object of developing
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"a number of vigorous regional bodies, each with a staff drawn largely from the region which it serves and each with a distinctive programme policy in keeping with the character of the region and the needs and wishes of its people."
I am sure that most Members will be in wholehearted agreement with that policy. It is a pretty fair description of the present West Regional programme, which, by the way, is still improving, and is greatly enjoyed by millions of people in the South-West. But we learn from the White Paper, and the Lord President has repeated it, very regretfully, that this programme is to be amalgamated with the Midland Regional.
I suggest that that action is in flat contradiction to the Government's policy, and, further, it is a gross injustice to West Country listeners and to the enthusiastic regional staffs. I do not believe it can be the policy of the B.B.C., because quite recently an undertaking was given by the Director-General to restore regional services as soon as possible. We are told that it is inevitable because of the shortage of wavelengths We are told we can have only eight medium wavelengths out of the 10 which this country possesses, because it is necessary to earmark the other two—267 metres and 307 metres—for the European Service. We are all agreed that it is important to maintain the European Service in order to convey the British point of view to people in Europe, and I am sure that we would be willing, if there was no other way, that these wavelengths should be used. But I wish to submit the view that they will not achieve the purpose for which they are to be used, and they will be entirely wasted.
The White Paper tells us that the range of these medium wavelengths is up to Ion miles for good reception, but in the "B.B.C. Year Book", I read:
"A broadcasting station using one of the medium wavelengths, cannot in any circumstances give a reliable service beyond a range of 60–80 miles, whatever the power of transmitter may be Beyond this range there are likely to be severe variations in the strength of the received signal and distortion of its quality."
When we examine countries to which this European Service on the medium wavelength is addressed, we learn that France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark and Holland are regarded as one group, and Norway, Sweden, Hungary, Portugal, Spain, Holland and Greece are to be another. My hon. Friend the Assistant

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Postmaster-General was good enough to say he would send me some maps of these regions, which I am afraid he has not had time to do. I prepared a sketch map myself, and I find that not a single one of these countries comes within a 100 miles radius. The first group of countries is anything from 200 to 500 miles distant, and the second group anything from 500 to 1,000 miles. I am well aware that the range now given is the ground range, and that at night, with the use of the sky wave, there is a considerable increase in the range of these broadcasting stations, but it is spasmodic, it is unreliable.
Mr. Crossman: Is not my hon. Friend aware that throughout the war medium waves have been consistently used to Europe, and all our best results in the European Service were achieved by people receiving on medium wave as far away as Czechoslovakia?
Mr. Collins: My information is that there is not good reception on medium waves in these European countries. At the same time, I understand there is a simultaneous short-wave service broadcasting these identical programmes to these European countries. I suggest that one of these two could be used to continue the Western Regional service. I want to deal with the position of the West Country listeners after this proposed amalgamation. In theory they will get three programmes—the Light Programme at 1,500 metres, the so-called Regional Programme from Birmingham, and the new programme, which, at first at least, will be broadcast only in the evening. My hon. Friend the Assistant Postmaster-General has stated that the Light Programme is mainly satisfactory in the South-West. I can assure him that is not the case. Over a very considerable area in the South-West reception of the Light Programme is either very poor or non-existent. I have had lots of letters covering a widely scattered area in the South-West from people who assure me of this. West of Taunton it is bad. I had a letter this morning from Bridgwater to say that it is non-existent, and I understand the position is the same in Exeter, Devon and Cornwall. If one looks at a map with a line drawn showing the area of the Light Programme, one will see that it——
Mr. Orr-Ewing: The hon. Gentleman must not think only in terms of West of Taunton. There is a part of England East of Taunton where the same difficulty is experienced in picking up the programme.
Mr. Collins: I agree. That is made perfectly clear in the White Paper. I do not think there is any reason why I should not put the case for the West Country. There is not a regional programme in the Eastern part of England at the moment but there is in the South-West.
Mr. Orr-Ewing: I am afraid the hon. Gentleman has quite mistaken my meaning. He and I represent Somerset Divisions. All I am saying is that there is a considerable part of Somerset which is to the North of Taunton. He should not think only of West of Taunton. There are other parts. He is being parochial in this matter.
Mr. Collins: I think the hon. Gentleman mistakes my meaning. When I speak of West of Taunton, I mean that reception is inferior West of Taunton. I thought I made the point clear. I mentioned Bridgwater and I am aware that in various parts of Somerset reception is very bad. I did not intend to be parochial. It is more or less admitted in the White Paper that the third programme will be practically non-existent in Cornwall and Devon and in most of Somerset except for small areas around Plymouth and Redruth. With regard to the regional programmes there is bound to be a big area of mutual interference where reception will be very bad. Also, according to my calculations, there will be an almost completely dead area in parts of Cornwall and Devon where there will be no reliable reception from any one of these three programmes. The Assistant Postmaster-General has supplied us with some figures. He tells us that 0.7 of the population situated in the South-West will get no programme at all. That involves roughly 400,000 people. He also says that some 300,000 will get only the Welsh programme. Some 40 per cent. of that programme is in the Welsh language and whilst I have no objection to that, it is not much use to people who cannot understand the language. I think that is sufficient to indicate how very bad the position of West Country listeners will be after the

1155
amalgamation. It seems a strange thing that after victory we should have to suffer a defeat and deprivation of this kind.
We know the value of these regional services, particularly in the South-West, which reflect the day-to-day life of the people and administer to their special needs in providing a platform for the free discussion of regional problems. I could develop that theme, but I would only remind hon. Members that, for 15 years, the South-West has fought to secure its own programme, and that it only succeeded just before the war in 1939. It lapsed, and was restored, and now we are again faced with this enforced merger with Birmingham. We believe that it is bound to mean a severe reduction in regional broadcasting affecting the South-West. At present, we have something like 14 or 15 hours a week, and we feel that this merger is bound to mean that local affairs and local news, which have been treated with so much interest, will be reduced. In particular, it will affect a matter which was brought to my notice today by the N.F.U.—the agricultural and horticultural broadcasts, which will also be reduced. It is idle to pretend that the interests of an industrial area like Birmingham are the same as those of a rural area like the South-West, and I beg my hon. Friend to consider my suggestions, and, in reply to my argument, to say that he will look at this matter again and will, if there is not a possibility of taking one of these wavelengths, look at the suggestion already made of trying to use one of the ex-enemy wavelengths not at present being used, which could surely be arranged in some way, rather than bring the present service to an end.
There is one other suggestion which I want to make. West Regional is at present broadcast on 540 metres, and it is intended to use that for the new programme, which will only be started, at least in the beginning, in the evening. Why could not West Regional continue to use that wavelength in the day until it is wanted in the evening, and then let Midland Regional have the other wave length as at present? If that cannot be done, why could they not keep their own present wavelengths and keep their separate identity in the same way that the North of England and Northern Ireland
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concerned about is that the regional character of broadcasting should be maintained. If the South-West is amalgamated with Birmingham, it will be lost or severely restricted, and I urge my hon. Friend to look at this matter again to see if he cannot help us in this way to keep our part of "Merrie England" as merry as it has been in the past.
8.38 p.m.
Mr. Maude: I want to follow up what the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins) has said. I hope to be able to see him come arm-in-arm with me into the Lobby this evening, because, obviously, he spoke with a great sense of conviction and with a feeling that the White Paper is a contradiction of the Government's policy. I am not quite so certain myself that it is. I would like to impress upon the Committee the fact that the reason for giving up our West Regional programme is set out in No. 13 of the conclusions in the White Paper, which says:
"(13) In support of British prestige and influence abroad, many foreign language services must be continued, and for this purpose two of the available medium wavelengths must be set aside for European Service:"
The arguments can be simply analysed in this way. First, what is it that we are going to give up? We believe that we are going to give up quite a lot. I am thinking particularly of those persons who slaved away in the B.B.C. in the West of England and worked like blacks to try to make the programmes better and better, and I think one may fairly claim that they have done extremely well. I am not one of those persons who feel that the B.B.C. is in a fearfully bad state because it has not been allowed to be heretical. I believe that the programmes in the West have been of a really high quality of which any person would be appreciative. I do not mean the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hale) because I am quite certain that, whatever programme he switched on, whether from Nebraska, Spain, or anywhere else, he would want to turn it off. There are a lot of people like him, and no one blames them. Incidentally, if the hon. Member for Taunton could give the hon. Member for Oldham the name of the place in Cornwall where the B.B.C. cannot be heard, I am sure that the hon. Member for Oldham would immediately go there to live.

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When one considers what is going to happen, there is every reason for hon. Members to be angry. The Midland Region is probably known to many listeners in the Committee. The western region is known to western Members and myself. The cultural unit which is going to be set up in the B.B.C. is the most fantastic thing. The region is to extend from Land's End to Norwich, and from Exeter to the Potteries. It is impossible to make a cultural unit of that. We do not want to go on giving programmes which will be greeted with jeers—of "Uncle Torn Cobley and All"—any more than the Midland Region wants to do something which people will laugh at. We have a local culture of our own. In 1927 we were amalgamated with Wales, and it worked very badly. The Welsh did not like it, and we did not like it. We believed we were both in the right. We have a sort of culture—I do not hesitate to use that word—which we believe is useful. It is now proposed to take away from us the benefit of people very like civil servants of high grade, and all we get as a sort of sop, is to be told that the staffs will be recruited from the regions.
Many of us in the West Country are extremely angry about it. I am certain that hon. Members from that part of the country will agree that the personnel of the West Country, not the technicians, but the ordinary Plymouthian, Devonian and Cornishman, having provided something useful and delightful, of which we are going to lose half. In order to see what we are going to get in exchange, one has to look at paragraph 59 of the White Paper where it states what the character of the Overseas Service is to be. The only word for that is a perfectly modern, up to date slang one—it is nothing more or less than "waffle". Paragraph 59 says:
"The Government consider that the Overseas Services of the Corporation should continue to be conducted in the most effective manner possible, consistent with economy in money, manpower and wavelengths: and that every endeavour should he made to secure the acceptance by Overseas broadcasting authorities of as many of the Corporation's programmes as possible for rediffusion over their national networks. Such programme, reaching the Overseas listener with as high a standard of audibility as his own programmes, can do much to promote an understanding of British life and customs."
It is nonsense. Those of us, on both sides of the Committee, who have lived
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abroad and who have listened, as I did for a year, to the Overseas Service coming from England know that it did not compete with the American programme. it is true that audibility was not good, but I liked the English programme best because it made me feel at home. The Americans, however, did not like the English programme better than their own, which was a great nuisance.
I do not believe that the B.B.C., that is to say, the Government, intend that the programmes are to be produced in such a way as to be acceptable. I am very much in favour of an inquiry. I want to reinforce my argument with a final point. If there is one thing which we want foreigners to do, it is to understand the achievements of Great Britain, not merely the cultural achievements, such as a play or a speech, but the material achievements. I do not mind whether they are produced by State workshops or private enterprise; I have nothing like that in my mind at all.
What I want is to see British goods advertised abroad. While I was in America I would have given anything to have heard some British advertising. It would have made a lot of Americans "mad as hops" as they say, but, nevertheless, it would have done them good. It was impossible during the war, but I would very much like it to be done now. I cannot conceive anything more ludicrous than what we shall see in the next 12 months, namely, people with sets which will enable them to listen in to American programmes and hear commercial advertising. The Government will be quite incapable of preventing these people from doing so. The Government say in the White Paper that they are going to try to prevent advertising coming into this country, and yet they are not doing a single thing to sell British goods abroad by way of advertising.
We are faced with the same sort of obstinacy which was shown in this House years ago, when I used to try to do the Parliamentary broadcasts, and our predecessors would not allow a representative of the B.B.C. in the galleries. One had to sneak in. One was not allowed to take a note, so one had to break off a small piece of pencil, and, when no one was looking, scribble under one's arm in an attempt to take a note. That went on for years. This is exactly the

1159
same sort of short-sightedness, and after 10 years there are certain to be some of us who will say, "I remember that not very interesting Debate on broadcasting, when I wish we had done something to advertise British goods."
8.47 P.m.
Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: I would like to begin by withdrawing a few words which I uttered on the last occasion when we had a B.B.C. Debate, by way of apology to the Scottish Director of the British Broadcasting Corporation. My words could have been interpreted to mean that he showed a certain amount of political favouritism, or choice, with reference to Parliamentary speakers. I did not intend that my words should have conveyed that meaning. What I wished to convey was that the cover of Scottish Parliamentary reporting was inadequate and did not do justice to all Members on both sides of the House, and I was not referring to the hon. and gallant Member for Argyll (Major McCallum) simply because he was a Conservative. The fact remains that the references by the B.B.C. created an unfortunate over balance with regard to reporting an individual Member of the Committee. But I would certainly not wish it to be thought that there was conscious bias by the Scottish B.B.C. officials.
I think the hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Henderson Stewart) today managed to marshal his supporters rather better than his arguments. He did not make a detailed and solid case for an inquiry, which we rather expected from the sweeping demands that he made. I shall not attempt to set myself up as a technical expert on broadcasting. It would not do for me as a layman from the Highlands to step in and do a highland fling where hesitant angels might want to make a modest detour.
I want to say a few words about two points: first the Scottish set-up, and second, the Gaelic service. The points which I would like to marshal in favour of a good deal of increase in Scottish autonomy are well set out by the Saltire Society in Scotland. First, they suggest—and we Scottish Labour Members on this side agree with them—that the administration of Scottish broadcasting by a Scottish board of governors should be a statutory part of any future organisation for broad
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casting; second that the governors should be resident in Scotland and should be appointed by the Secretary of State for Scotland in consultation with Scottish "cultural interests." I personally would rather widen the term" cultural interests," but I shall not quarrel with that at the moment. They suggest, thirdly, that the governors should have power to initiate—and this is important—and control broadcasting policy in Scotland and to appoint staff: fourth, that one member of the Scottish board should have the right to sit on the English or British board, and that a member of the English or British board should have the right to sit on the Scottish body.
These points do summarise what many Scottish hon. Members on this side of the House feel, namely, that a good deal more autonomy and control over the Scottish services should be vested in a body in Scotland. We feel that at the moment Scotland is not expressing herself, and not doing justice to that Scottish talent which lies somewhere between the extremes of burlesque on the one hand and a sort of highbrow caviare programme on the other.
Mr. Walter Fletcher: What is lowbrow caviare?
Mr. James Callaghan: It is the difference between ordinary caviare and highbrow caviare.
Mr. MacMillan: We cannot extinguish a fire in Scotland with a fire engine in Whitehall. No more can we stir up or rekindle the old Scottish spirit of enterprise in the cultural and spiritual field by means of an advisory committee ruled over from London, and very often overruled from London as well. The hon. Member for East Fife quoted an article in "Picture Post" of 13th July, written by Professor Ogilvie. I have great respect for Professor Ogilvie, and not least for his attempt to teach me the elements of economics once upon a time in Edinburgh. If one not so very many years removed from his classroom could be allowed to dissent, I would say some of his arguments, while characteristically attractive in presentation, did not carry the weight that one would expect from a man of his great experience and ability. However, there was one thing he said with which we on this side of the House, as Scottish Members, must find ourselves in agreement. I will quote his words:

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" There is no more important objective for broadcasting in future than to ensure that the regions are given proper scope and status on the air. They and not London are the stuff of which these islands are made. They and not London should be masters in their own home. The power and responsibility for regional broadcasting, the last word as well as the first, must lie wholly with the regional centres. This principle of regional sovereignty over regional programmes is vital for the three or four Englands, not forgetting the neglected South-East, just as much as Scotland, or Wales, or Northern Ireland."
We are very much in tune with the spirit of what Professor Ogilvie says there. We would like to see in Scotland responsibility for what goes on on the air in Scotland and from Scotland. There should be a body with full authority and responsibility, with power to initiate services and programmes. The existence of a body of that kind would not interfere with or narrow down the services in the United Kingdom as a whole. On the contrary, it would give a wider choice to English listeners as well as a wider choice to Scottish listeners. It would give to the talent in Scotland, which at present is very much restricted, a wider scope and outlet.
Scotland is not only anxious to acquire new rights and new services for herself. She is anxious to give new services to the rest of the country, as well as to Scotland; and to the rest of the world. I think, with all modesty, we might say that in Scotland there is, in proportion, as much talent acceptable to the rest of the world, for listeners overseas, as there is in any English regional network. I see no reason in the world why we should not be given an opportunity of developing it to the utmost. I would suggest, quite modestly, that many good things have come out of Scotland, and we must be given an opportunity of developing these qualities; so that other nations, as well as Scotland herself, can benefit from them. It is true that through ancient civilisation of the Western Isles we filtered and refined the doctrines of the Columbian Missions. For that matter, we exported from the Island of Lewis down to where the only island is the Isle of Dogs, the right hon. Gentleman himself, the Lord President of the Council. What better blessing could we have conferred upon Whitehall than the right hon. Gentleman? Scotland has contributed many of her virtues and her sons. We appeal that Scotland should be allowed to assume the right to decide these matters which
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are capable of characteristic Scottish expression within her own limits. We ask nothing onside those rights.
We ask for an adequate measure of control over the development of Scotland's characteristics and indigenous talents. We have contributed to broadcasting no less than three Governors, We have contributed Professor Ogilvie, one of my own Clan, Lord MacMillan, who stayed for a few days anyway, and Lord Reith. Not only that, but in the field of television we have contributed to the world, through. Baird, perhaps the greatest talent in the pioneering of television known to this. country. We make this claim in all modesty—that Scotland be allowed to develop what she has to give, not only to herself, but to the rest of the country and to the world.
One word in conclusion on a slightly different topic—I almost said, in a different language; because it relates to my language. I ask the Gaelic division of broadcasting in Scotland to try and gel away from the kind of slapstick burlesque kind of humour by which is misrepresented to the world the very real humour of the Highland people in their own language. Translated it is worse still. It really is not up to scratch; I do not know what they have to draw upon, but I feel that there is a wealth of latent talent upon which they are making no attempt at all to draw. I am very tired of this sort of burlesque tomfoolery, and I think there is underlying it a curious sense of inferiority; because some people feel that the moment they begin to speak Gaelic they belong to some segregated caste.
If we are to develop Scottish Gaelic broadcasting as it ought to be developed, the Scottish Education Department ought to pay more attention to the encouragement and active guidance of children capable of taking advantage of courses of Gaelic composition; perhaps having corn-petitions, with prizes for children and adults in Gaelic broadcasting material. A lot could be done by dramatising personalities and incidents of Highland anti Island history and Scottish history in general. I want the Assistant Postmaster-General to take hold of the fact that there is on this question a good deal of Scottish feeling which is not just a desire for Scotland to come out top dog, but is a desire that Scotland should be allowed to express herself in her own way and under her own genuine auspices, and

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thereby to make a bigger contribution to broadcasting in Great Britain and in the world.
8.58 p.m.
Mr. Ernest Davies: In the very few minutes allotted to me I should like to refer to two points. First, I am not altogether satisfied that the relationship of the B.B.C.'s overseas services to the Foreign Office, which the Lord President of the Council described this afternoon, will work out satisfactorily. I am not at all sure that there is not being imposed upon the B.B.C. a responsibility which it will find itself unable to carry, inasmuch as whether we like it or not the overseas broadcasts of the B.B.C. are bound to be interpreted abroad as the official voice of this country. Since that is the case, it is important that what goes out from the B.B.C. here shall represent the foreign policy of this country. It would, therefore, seem that the responsibility for such broadcasts must in the last resort rest on the Foreign Office and not on the B.B.C. I urge, therefore, upon the Lord President that, when the Charter is finally drawn up, the way in which this question is dealt with in the White Paper shall be reconsidered, and definite responsibility fixed on the Foreign Office for overseas broadcasts. In this connection I would also suggest that the present arrangement whereby Ministers are answerable in this House for matters of general policy, and not for matters of the day to day operation of the B.B.C., on home and foreign affairs, is not working out satisfactorily.
From the early days of the B.B.C., the Postmaster-General has rightly said he would answer here for matters of general policy, and not for matters of day to clay operation. But in my opinion this has been interpreted by Ministers who have answered for the B.B.C. in the House, in such a way as to enable them to evade their responsibility for the B.B.C., and to consider practically everything as matters of day-to-day operations, and not matters of general policy. In that connection I would refer hon. Members to the answer the Prime Minister gave to an hon. Member as recently as r4th March, who raised the question of controversial broadcasts by the B.B.C. The Prime Minister stated:
"The extent to which controversial matters and minority opinions should be given a place
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in the B.B.C.'s programme is a matter whir' in the past has been left, with the approval of this House, to the discretion of the Governors. I see no reason to depart from this policy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th March, 1946; Vol. 420, C. 1279.]
I should have thought that the extent to which there should be controversial broadcasting was a matter of general policy, and not a matter of day-to-day operation. If such a matter, as the extent to which there should be controversy on the B.B.C., is interpreted as a matter of day-to-day affairs, beyond the control of the House, then I should say that the control of the House over the B.B.C. is inadequate. The extent to which Questions can be accepted at the Table regarding the B.B.C. is a measure of the responsibility which Ministers are willing to accept. As the Charter is now being redrawn, I would suggest that the time has come when there should be a clear definition of what Ministerial responsibility for the B.B.C. is, so that hon. Members may be 'n a position to put down Questions which they know will be dealt with by the responsible Minister, if they do come within the interpretation as provided in the Charter.
I would deal with one other point, and that is the question of finance, which has not been touched upon to any extent in this Debate. The licence fee, as we all know, is, unfortunately, being raised to 20s. In the first year of the receipt of that 20s., it is quite clear that there will be a balance over, which the Treasury will take. What I urge on the Ministers responsible and on the Chancellor of the Exchequer is, that in the past the B.B.C. has contributed very large sums to the national Exchequer. During the first Charter, the first 10 years, more than half of the wireless licence fees actually went into the national revenue, and even in the year before the war only 7s. 6d. of the 10s. of each licence fee subscribed by the listening public went to the B.B.C. in order to provide broadcasting services. The balance went to the Post Office and the Treasury. I should like the Lord President to give an undertaking to this Committee, that, in future, every penny of the licence fees raised from the listeners, with the exception of the deduction made by the Post Office for the cost of collection, and so on, shall go to the B.B.C. for the purposes of home broadcasting services. If, in any one year, that total sum is not used, the B.B.C. should

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have power to put the balance to reserve, so that it can draw upon that for development and expansion, if it so wishes. We are going to need increasingly large sums for the carrying on of the B.B.C. services. Unless the B.B.C. is assured of what its income is to be it will not be in a position to plan ahead, and to work out planned development; but if it knows it is to receive the total receipts from the licence fees, then it will be in a position to plan ahead.
Finally, I would say that I agree with the Lord President, in the reasons which he gave, in refusing an inquiry at the present time. The refusal of an inquiry now, does not mean that certain changes and reforms, such as those which have been mentioned during the Debate, are not required in the B.B.C. during these next five years. Among these reforms are financial reforms, the question of Ministerial responsibility, the segregation of responsibility for foreign overseas services, and question of staff and full consideration to trade union representation which was raised earlier in the Debate. We have five years during which the Charter is being extended, and if the B.B.C. succeeds in carrying through a large measure of reform during those five years, it can justify the continuation of a public monopoly, but if it fails, then will come the time for change.
9.6 p.m.
Mr. Walter Fletcher: The greater part of the Debate has been devoted to the aspect of the B.B.C. as a means of disseminating political views or propaganda. Very little time has been devoted to another aspect, which is that of its artistic and cultural effect. The B,.B.C. is one of the greatest means of invisible export this country has. Day after day, people all over the world are listening to the music and non-political broadcasts put out by the B.B.C. It is extremely important that for a few minutes we should consider that aspect, and the means not only of preserving the admittedly high standard it has achieved, but of making quite certain that in any change which may take place it is, if possible, increased in its artistic value throughout the world. I should not like to criticise the B.B.C. unduly, but it is rather significant that such a high proportion of its artistic and musical broadcasts are made from records. Surely there are in this country enough deep wells of
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live talent from which we can draw. No one can say that the B.B.C. cannot afford and will not be able in the future to afford to use the best possible artists in this country. I do not wish it to be thought that this applies only to highbrow music. Whether it is music hall, slapstick, light music, or classical music, it is vitally important that the great reputation which the B.B.C. has established throughout the world should be maintained.
Sometimes, I think, there have been very considerable lapses, and there is room for great improvement, but I sincerely hope that we shall not descend in any sort of change which may be made in the Charter to what is called in America "soap opera." Let this instrument in its semi-Government or non-Government position take advantage of its very great revenue and its freedom from a Minister of good taste, or a Minister of bad taste, to maintain outside the controversial arena of political broadcasts the highest possible standard. There can be no better way of encouraging artists of every sort, than to have the B.B.C. as an open shop with no sort of prejudice of any sort, where talent will have an opportunity to be known not only in this country but throughout the world. I sincerely hope that if and when some form of inquiry is instituted, one member at least of the inquiring body will be appointed not for any political reasons but simply to watch very carefully on behalf of the artistic and cultural side. I think all will agree that it should be watched very carefully, to see that the artistic and musical side is in no way sacrificed in the desire to use broadcasts for political purposes. This is an entirely non-party question, and I sincerely hope that there will be a considerable backing for the view which I have put forward very briefly; that we shall receive from the Minister some assurance that the artistic side will receive full support; that every endeavour will be made to improve it; and that there will be no parsimony in relation to the artists.
9.11 p.m.
Wing-Commander Shackleton: There is one point which I want to emphasise, because I feel that it has not been brought out strongly enough in the course of the Debate. That is the question of frequencies. I know that frequencies have been mentioned. The hon.

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Member for East Fife (Mr. Stewart) dismissed them, as did other hon. Members, as if they were irrelevant to the problem.
Mr. Henderson Stewart: On the contrary, I said that they were most important.
Wing-Commander Shackleton: It was suggested that it would be impossible to overcome the difficulty. The hon. Member mentioned the words "frequency modulation." I do not know if he knows anything about that, but it is not the solution to the problem today. In a few years' time, anything may be possible. We may be able to develop a very much wider field of broadcasting in this country. I hope that it will be possible to have local broadcasting of a regional nature, which will satisfy even the most extreme nationalists in this House. I would say that the request for an inquiry today is unnecessary.
Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: The hon. and gallant Member looked at me pointedly as he made his remark about "extreme nationalists." If he referred to me or my speech, he was talking complete nonsense.
Wing-Commander Shackleton: Any suggestion that there should be an inquiry today shows that the people who are asking for it have not investigated the problem. The facts, at the present moment, are known to us. It is quite clear that we have to continue with our present system over a period of years, and we must allow the B.B.C. to have a chance to develop their plans, and, above all, to bring to the situation a clarity which is not existing today. We do not know the potentialities of frequency modulation, or of any of the other developments. It is not fitting that hon. Members opposite, who are continuously urging the Government to make the position clear and let it be known how industries stand, so that they can plan, should now suggest that we should throw broadcasting into a state of uncertainty. In five years' time we shall be in a much better position. The frequency position will have been cleared up, and we shall be able to consider these new developments. In the meantime, it is more businesslike and efficient to say to the B.B.C.: "Continue. You have not had a fair chance. The war intervened. You have had only about three
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years of the period laid down by the Ullswater Committee, and in five years' time from now we shall consider what will be the future of broadcasting in this country."
9.14 p.m.
Mr. Butcher: I beg to move, to reduce the Vote by £100.
I do this because I believe that the reply of the Lord President of the Council showed a complete unawareness of the extreme depth of feeling that there is on this matter in many parts of the House and throughout the country. The war has brought a complete change in the relationship of the B.B.C. with the Government, with the country, and with its performers. The position will never be restored to what it was before the war. It is almost as if, before the war, we had a large and lovable dog. For certain reasons this dog had been taught to fight and love, and, in so doing, it became conscious of its own strength. That is like the position of the B.B.C. at the present time. It has secured a consciousness of its strength and of the part which it played in the winning of the war. It is right that this strength and this new position of authority which it has acquired in the national life should be impartially examined.
I was very much at one with the Lord President of the Council, as I heard him dealing, if I may say so, rather hesitantly, with the technicalities of frequency modulation, because I feel exactly the same. I will only say to the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Preston (Wing-Commander Shackleton) who preceded me, and who also referred to this matter with far more knowledge than I can command, that his views should be contrasted with those of the expert Mr. Eckersley who has contributed on this matter to "The Times today. In effect, the experts are at variance—Mr. Eckersley on the one hand, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Preston on the other. For these reasons there should be an inquiry into the technical position.
Television is one of the matters which has come along during these war years and has developed enormously. Those of us who have television sets know that reception today is much better than it was before the war. We know that it is

1169
closely allied with radar. It is worth examining whether broadcasting is not now in exactly the same position as the cinema was when the talking film was invented. For how much longer are the people of this country prepared to accept sound broadcasts, without visual accompaniment? Under a monopoly the position could go on as it is for quite a long time, but that is the sort of thing that should be and must be examined. Are we diverting too much of the income received from licences to television? Soon there will be approximately 10,000,000 people paying wireless licences. According to the White Paper, about £7½ million is to be spent on sound broadcasting. What is the position? The position is, that large numbers of poor people living in rural areas with just the ordinary small sets, are being required to contribute substantial sums to subsidise the programmes of those who are fortunate enough to have television sets, for without this expenditure on television there certainly would not have been the increase recently in the licence fee.
I was glad to hear the Lord President of the Council say that he was not opposed in principle to the idea of an inquiry. As the hon. Lady the Member for Anglesey (Lady Megan Lloyd-George) pointed out, after all was said and done, the Lord President, in effect, said that at the present time there was a shortage of wavelengths and these could not be secured except by international agreement. The chances of international agreement were not good for various reasons, and, therefore, until a happier future had been achieved it was quite idle to expect a re-allocation of wavelengths. That, too, is I believe against the technical experts.
I want, if I may, to return for a moment to the question of television. I am wondering whether there should not be an inquiry about this great invention. Not long ago an artist who had arranged to appear before a television screen was prevented by her contract with a theatrical entrepreneur from filling her engagement. This Corporation, if it believes in television, must fight for it. It must not submit tamely to the boycott of any private interest. But has it enough money to try it? There must be an examination to see that the expensive development of television programmes is not hampered, hindered, or checked in
1170
any way by the shortage of money. We ought to have, in this country, three first-class alternative programmes. The hon. Member for Bury (Mr. W. Fletcher) regretted that so much of the musical entertainment of the B.B.C. came from records. That is about all the B.B.C. can afford at present. Can the B.B.C. provide better programmes on its present income? I do not think it can. I do not share the views of the Lord President that the remuneration of artistes has been satisfactory. I do not think it has been sufficiently generous. Many established figures in the entertainment world show no eagerness to accept a B.B.C. engagement at the present low fees. The attraction of such an engagement is the publicity it brings. Rather than accept the present fee they would much more happily appear without charge for charity.
There is another point I would like to make on this question of finance. Is too large a share of the income of the B.B.C. being expended on the administrative side, and not enough on the programme side? There is a widespread feeling that in this admirable organisation many people have managed to find jobs of a routine nature which do not contribute either to the efficiency of the organisation or to the entertainment of its patrons. The White Paper, in paragraph 26, foreshadows joint consultative machinery with the staff. I am glad to see that, because I believe that the B.B.C., should he a model employer. It will, however, be making a great mistake if the people concerned with the imagining, developing and preparing of programmes regard themselves as having safe and pensionable jobs. The artistes, producers, and people in charge of programmes must be well paid; their reward must be equivalent to that in other branches of public entertainment. But, equally, they must live in a world where talent is rapidly recognised, where popularity and fame may come overnight, but where a slump sometimes quickly follows a boom. The public taste in entertainment is fickle, and the ability of a producer varies from time to time.
There is something else I do not understand about the B.B.C. In America, it it is the continued and deliberate policy of broadcasting corporations to build up radio personalities. The policy of the B.B.C. seems to be exactly the reverse.

1171
If a broadcaster on foreign, diplomatic, or social affairs seems to be creating a large and popular following, the B.B.C. arrange—I am sure with the highest motives, perhaps because they fear to give undue prominence to one political view—for him not to appear at the microphone so frequently. One has only to think of the case of a former Member of the House, Mr. Harold Nicolson, or Mr. Priestley. The most serious aspect of the relationship between the B.B.C. and the broadcaster is the complete monopoly which the Corporation holds. I believe the B.B.C. tries to exercise its monopoly impartially and judicially, but nevertheless, if a would-be performer fails to obtain an engagement, there is not another broadcasting corporation using the British air which can offer him work. On the other hand, the fact that there is no alternative employer requires the B.B.C., out of decency, to behave as a good employer and to put old and faithful servants more frequently in front of the microphone than their talents justify.
The greatest change in the relationship of the B.B.C. with other interests is the change in its relationship with the Government, which was referred to by the noble Lady the Member for Anglesey. I was a little disturbed to hear the Lord President of the Council say that the Government make suggestions to the B.B.C. It is very difficult for any body, however august it may be, to resist suggestions made by the Government. The people. regard it as their patriotic duty to assist the Government; and indeed, the Chancellor, in another connection, has paid a tribute to the assistance he has received from the City of London. I do not believe it makes for the independence of the B.B.C. if the Lord President of the Council gets ideas and passes them along to the B.B.C.—" Say, boys, what do you think of this?—I think my ideas are pretty good."
It is in connection with the Overseas Service that the announcement has been made that the Corporation will accept guidance from the Government in the overseas broadcasts. I believe that in itself is a sufficient cause for an inquiry. People overseas are entitled to know what is the exact relationship between the B.B.C. and the Government. The duties to be discharged are, apparently, to be entirely different now from what they
1172
were at an earlier time. How this is to be arranged, I do not know. The hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon-Walker), who made a most attractive speech, thought that to have a song broadcast, "I would like to be a refugee from England," was dangerous and wrong. It may be. I think it would be equally wrong to introduce the Lord President's speech with a roll of drums and "Sieg Heil." It is dangerous at this time, when the relationship of the Government and the B.B.C. appears to be closer, as far as one can gather from the White Paper and from what we have heard, to reduce the status of the Governors by the very practical manner of reducing their salaries.
Mr. H. Morrison: They will still be doing quite well.
Mr. Butcher: The Lord President suggests that they will still be doing quite well. It will be within the recollection of the Committee that hon. Members found it quite difficult to discharge their duties properly on £100 a year.
Mr. Morrison: Members of Parliament are infinitely harder worked than Governors of the B.B.C.
Mr. Butcher: I believe that Governors of the B.B.C. should have as much a full-time job as Members of Parliament, and that is the sort of thing we need an inquiry to examine. The most important relationship is that between the B.B.C. and the listener, the broadcaster and the listener. I feel that we are entitled to ask the Government what they mean by the last three lines of paragraph 47 of the White Paper:
" The Government, moveover, intend to take all steps within their power, and to use their influence with the authorities concerned, to prevent the direction of commercial broadcasts to this country from abroad."
The Government spokesman in another place referred to the dangers of commercial broadcasts, gave an assurance that the Government were aware of what he called "this unpleasant problem," and promised rather officiously that the Government would protect home listeners from such broadcasts. What exactly is meant by those vague threats? We know that the Lord President has now "come out of it"; he is no longer going to interfere with what we lisetn to, but only with what we read. An inquiry should be directed into this.

1173
Is it desirable in the light of all that has happened and the way in which broadcasting has been used as a monopoly service for the shaping of opinion, that it should be a monopoly in this country? The Socialist Party should have a little more confidence in the experience of other Socialist Governments. The Australian Government, for example, has managed very successfuly to conduct one Government programme and one sponsored programme, and something of this nature would, I believe, offer diversity and destroy the evils of monopoly. All these are matters which I believe should he the subject of an inquiry. The inquiry can be as easily and satisfactorily held in the near future as in five years' time. Indeed, it is fair to the B.B.C. that they should have this inquiry at the earliest possible moment I believe that an extension of the Charter for two or three years at the most would be adequate, and that the time in between might be well and profitably used in establishing an inquiry.
The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Burke): As is always the case in Debates about the B.B.C., whether inside this House or outside, a good deal of the time has been spent on particular likes and dislikes with regard to programme items. In the main, this Debate has been concerned with a number of specific objections, but there have been, in addition, one or two minor points with which, perhaps, I might deal before going on to the bigger issues with regard to sponsored broadcasts, commercialised broadcasts, the monopoly of the B.B.C., and the big point about an inquiry. The hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hale) told the Committee of the many things he would like to hear broadcast by the B.B.C. and I am sure that many of us have a good deal of sympathy with him. We all have particular little things that we should like to hear put over. One of the things that I am particularly glad about is that when I have to answer questions with regard to the B.B.C. I do not have to try to justify Tommy Handley or Tessie O'Shea. At all events I think that is the kind of thing which, by general agreement, we think should be left to the Corporation. We have to get a body of men—[An HON. MEMBER: "And women."]—yes, and women, as Governors who are broadminded, of wide judgment, unprejudiced and impartial, I would say that they should also be men of action,
1174
people who are well-travelled, scientific but versed in the classics and so on. We should get all-round experts and leave the matter to them. [An HON. MEMBER: "All for £600 a year? "] The £600 a year is not given to them as salary for a year s work. The Governors meet only once a fortnight and the payment is regarded as sufficient for the appointment. There is no comparison between the payment of Members of Parliament and the payment of the Governors of the B.B.C.
I am dealing with the minor points which were raised. An hon. Member asked a question about the revenues received by the B.B.C., wanted to know how much of it would be allocated to them and whether, if in the course of a year a certain amount was over, that amount would be allowed to stand and put aside by the B.B.C.? That cannot be done because it would be quite wrong, financially, that money given to the B.B.C. should be allowed to be kept and put on one side to be spent at some future time. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?."] Because it would destroy the very basis upon which the Estimates and the control of this House over finance are based. A Select Committee has been complaining that there is not sufficient external control. As the Lord President of the Council has said, the Government will go into that matter very carefully, The method of control now is that the B.B.C. makes its estimate and that the Government see that that estimate is met. That is a sound and proper way. As a matter of fact, it is very doubtful whether there will be any money left over in the course of the next few years, because the expenses of the B.B.C. are hound to go up as its programmes improve.
Now I come to another question that was raised. I am glad that the right hon. Member for Bournemouth (Mr. Bracken) has relieved me of the necessity of dealing with American broadcasts. It is true that some broadcasts of a very high character are in American programmes but I think it is true—and the hon. Member for Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) agrees with this statement—that, taking them by and large, the level of British programmes is equal to the level of American programmes. It is suggested that an inquiry is necessary in order to see whether or not the B.B.C. should continue as the

1175
single broadcasting authority in the country. Every inquiry that has been made into that question in the past, whether it was the Sykes Committee, the Crawford Committee or the Ullswater Committee——
Mr. Pickthorn: I hope the hon. Gentleman will forgive me for interrupting, but he will surely remember, as was shown by the testimony given in another place the other day, that the Ullswater Committee did not face that question, or only slightly.
Mr. Burke: Whether they faced it slightly or not, they said that their recommendations were directed towards the further strengthening of the position which the B.B.C. had attained, that the absence of criticism showed how widely accepted the service was, and that the constitution of the B.B.C. had been taken as a model in other countries. That is the Ullswater Committee. All the committees have either recommended or endorsed the recommendations of previous committees that there should be a single broadcasting authority in this country, and that is the position at the present time.
Sponsored programmes would mean that some rearrangement of the wavelengths that we have at our disposal would he necessary. Whether or not we agree with the conception of a single broadcasting authority, we shall have to face up to the position that to introduce any other broadcasting organisation into the country would mean giving up one or more of the wavelengths we possess at present. Hon. Members will have heard today how one region is complaining that a wavelength has been taken from it. It wants that wavelength restored. If we were to depart from the single authority, we would have to destroy the balance in our B.B.C. programmes which we are trying to set up. The B.B.C. has set itself, as far as it can, with the wavelengths at its disposal, to give a variety of essential programmes—a light programme and a serious programme, and then a programme for each of the six regions. To take one of the wavelengths away would mean that one of the regions would have to go, or else a single programme would have to be put in its place in the national programme for the whole of the country, and that in itself would destroy the balanced conception which the
1176
B.B.C. has of meeting the wishes of the community.
Let me turn to the question of the inquiry which has been asked for. If we had an inquiry at the present time, the Charter could not be extended from the beginning of next year. If an inquiry had been desired, it ought to have been asked for some considerable time ago. [HON. MEMBERS: Why? "]When the Prime Minister made his statement and said that it was the considered opinion of the Government that an inquiry was not necessary, there was no demand for an inquiry. [HON. MEMBERS: Yes, there was."] No, there was no demand for an inquiry, but in any case if any inquiry were to be instituted now, it would be 12 or 18 months before the result of that inquiry could be put before the Government. It is only a question of time. The Government have no objection in principle to an inquiry. The Lord President said that this afternoon. "An investigation will take place" is what he said. [HON. MEMBERS: "When? "] The White Paper itself says, if hon. Gentlemen have read it, that the Government have no objection in principle to an inquiry.
Mr. Henderson Stewart: Why did the right hon Gentleman object in 1939?
Mr. Burke: The question, then, is one of time. That is why the Government at present are not disposed to grant an inquiry. If you had an inquiry now, you would be inquiring into a position with regard to wavelengths which is quite unknown. We are now working on a system of wavelengths which goes back to 1933. We ought to have had a new agreement in 1939, but that could not take place because the war broke out. The right hon. Gentleman knows the facts. Because we could not have an inquiry then, we are working on a system of wavelengths which dates back to 1933. After the war ceased, we prepared to have an International Telecommunications Conference in which the wavelengths of the whole world would be redistributed. That is the only way in which you can prevent chaos. We are now working on an old distribution, and it may be that after the next International Telecommunications Conference there will be a change in the allocation of wavelengths to this country. When the world wavelengths are allocated, there will have to be a European Conference to deal with the wavelength's of Europe alone

1177
Hon. Members have spoken about Australia and the number of programmes and different organisations there. They are in an entirely different position. We, in this country, as part of Europe, have to take a certain number of wavelengths and use them in conjunction with 40 other European countries. In Australia they have the whole of those wavelengths for their own use. In America there are only eight competing countries in the whole of North America for a whole range of wavelengths, and the difficulty we are in is the difficulty of allocating to ourselves the number of wavelengths in order to give us the best balance of programmes. If we were to have an inquiry—[Interruption]—if hon. Members will listen, I will try to make my point.
Mr. Kirkwood: They are behaving as they do in the Smoke Room.
Mr. Burke: If we were to have an inquiry now, we would be inquiring into a situation which might be completely changed after both those Conferences of which I have spoken. Therefore, it is essential first of all, apart from any other considerations, that we wait for both those Conferences to take place, and those two Conferences cannot take place—although we are taking steps at the moment to get them before 1948.
Captain Marsden: That has nothing to do with the question.
Mr. Burke: Hon. Members have said. "If you cannot have the inquiry now, have it in two or three years." There you are. You cannot begin the inquiry for two years, that is, until 1948, at the very earliest. How far short are you, then, of going the full gamut which the Government have fixed of five years? When we fixed this we said, "Give the Corporation a chance to develop itself for a reasonable period, and in that time you can have the fullest investigation, knowing something more about the world allocation of wavelengths." Let me put another reason why we cannot have an inquiry at the moment. There has been a good deal of talk about technical improvements that have taken place during the war——
Captain Marsden: What about the programmes?
Mr. Burke:—and the need to inquire into the future because of those technical improvements. A good deal has been
1178
said about frequency modulation. America has gone ahead with frequency modulation, not because she knows more about it than we do, but because during the war she was able to use her industrial capacity to make sets. The difficulty with us is not our lack of knowledge about these things, but the fact that the industrial capacity is not there. The Government suggest that if we wait until our industrial capacity has caught up with our theoretical knowledge then, under better conditions, we can inquire how far those theories, developed during the war, are applicable. Those are two very good and sound reasons why we should wait. There is no obstinacy about it, but good and solid reasons why an inquiry at a later stage would be a good deal more beneficial.
I wish to say a word or two about regions. This all hinges on the question of wavelengths, and is a technical problem. Do not think that America has escaped all her problems. The Post Office has had frequency modulation between the Isle of Man and this country, and between this country and the Channel Islands, for a considerable time. Frequency modulation has been held out as the solution of the problem of regions; it is not. We could not put a new frequency modulated transmitter into, say, Cornwall or Scotland, where they are needed, because the people have not the sets to receive them. Until the industrial capacity can make the sets for them we cannot make the fullest use of frequency modulated transmitters. That does not mean to say that the engineers of the B.B.C. and the Post Office are not going ahead in solving this problem and in trying to give a bigger coverage to the country. However, the coverage is greater than ever. More than 90 per cent. of the population are to be covered by three programmes, and that is greater than ever before. The 10 per cent. is the very hard and difficult percentage to be brought in. It is the people in rural areas, people in the mountains and outlying places, who are hard to get at. It is easy to creep up from 80 per cent. 90 per cent., but B.B.C. and Post Office engineers are now facing the difficult problem of reaching the remaining 10 percent. Frequency modulation in a few years' time might get us out of a lot of difficulty. It is easy to talk glibly about it now, but this is not the time.

1179
Television is doing well in London. We want it in Birmingham next—[Interruption.]—we want it in Birmingham or in any other centre. But there again there is a problem. We have to wait until we can get the cable laid, and it is a question of industrial capacity. When the cable is laid, transmission cannot begin from Birmingham or anywhere else until there is the site and a building. These are practical problems which, if we are given time to settle down to them, we can inquire into in about two years time. The Government are not opposed in principle to an inquiry. But at present they intend that the Corporation should have a fair chance, for a reasonable period, under peacetime conditions, to apply the technical discoveries of wartime, to carry through the necessary organisation in its programmes, and put us back again at least on a peacetime footing. If, later, an investigation is desirable, it can be held with much more information at our disposal, and in a much better way.
But at present—this is the view of the Government—there will be no change in cardinal features of the Corporation, because we believe that that is in keeping with the trend of public opinion. There will continue to be one broadcasting authority in this country; that broadcasting authority will continue to be noncommercial, but it will remain constitutionally independent. We believe that this organisation should not be the plaything of any party, or even the instrument of any Government. We believe it is too great and too powerful to be left for the use of commercial interests. We say "Let it go ahead, improve and
develop." It cannot suit everybody all the time, but we believe that it does suit most of the people of this country. It is giving Ahem, for less than two-thirds of a penny per week per family, three alternative programmes It is giving them these programmes from morning until midnight. It is giving them news without views, and education without propaganda.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
The Chairman: When the occupant of the Chair rises, hon. Members must resume their seats.
Mr. E. P. Smith: On a point of Order. May I put one question to the hon. Gentleman? Is he aware that three of the great cultural trade unions of this country, representing authors, actors, players and broadcasters, regard the B.B.C. at the present moment as an employer of sweated labour? Will he do something to revise the minimum terms upon which people are called upon to give their services?
Mr. H. Hynd: Further to that point of Order. Is it a point of Order?
Mr. Orr-Ewing: The reply which has been given by the Assistant Postmaster-General condemns any possibility Whatever of being able to put across the case for the export of British goods into foreign markets, and advertisement of the fact of what British industry is doing.
Question put, "That a sum not exceeding £3,749,900 be granted for the said service."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 137; Noes, 271.

Division No. 255.]

AYES

[10.0 p.m.

Amory, D. Heathcoat

Cole, T. L.

Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)

Assheton, Rt. Hon. R.

Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

Gage, Lt.-Col. C.

Astor, Hon. M.

Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)

Galbraith Cmdr. T D.

Baldwin, A. E.

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C

George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)

Barlow, Sir J.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Glossop, C. W H.

Baxter, A. B.

Crowder, Capt. J. F. E.

Glyn, Sir R.

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.

Cuthbert, W. N

Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G.

Bennett, Sir P.

Davidson, Viscountess

Grimston, R. V.

Boles, Lt.-Col D. C. (Wells)

Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

Gunter, Capt. R. J

Bower, N.

Digby, Maj. S. W.

Hannon, Sir P. (Moselev)

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

Hare, Lieut. Col. Hn. J. H (W'db'ge)

Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan

Drayson, G. B.

Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.

Drewe, C.

Head, Brig. A. H.

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G T.

Dugdale. Maj. Sir T. (Richmond)

Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.

Bullock, Capt. M

Duthie, W. S.

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)

Eccles, D M.

Hogg, Hon. Q.

Byers, Lt.-Col. F.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)

Carson, E.

Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L.

Hope, Lord J.

Challen, C.

Fletcher, W. (Bury)

Horabin, T L.

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Foster, J. G. (Northwich)

Howard, Hon A

Hurd, A

Neven-Spence, Sir B

Stewart, J Henderson (Fife, E.)

Hutchison, Lt.-Cdr. Clark (Edin'gh, W.)

Nicholson, G.

Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

Jeffreys, General Sir G

Nutting, Anthony

Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)

Jennings, R.

Orr-Ewing, I. L.

Studholme, H G

Keeling, E. H.

Peto, Brig. C. H. M

Sutcliffe, H.

Lambert, Hon. G.

Pickthorn, K.

Taylor C. S. (Eastbourne)

Langford-Holt, J.

Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

Teeling, William

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O

Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

Lindsay, M. (Solihull)

Raikes, H V.

Touche, G. C.

Lipson, D. L.

Ramsay, Maj. S

Turton, R. H.

Low, Brig. A. R. W.

Rayner, Brig. R.

Wadsworth, G.

Lucas, Major Sir J.

Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

Wakefield, Sir W W

Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S C. (Hillhead)

Walker-Smith, D.

Macdonald, Capt. Sir P. (I. of Wight)

Renton, D.

Ward, Hon. G. R.

Mackeson, Lt.-Col. H. R.

Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

Wall, Sir G. S Harvie

Maclay, Hon. J. S

Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

Wheatley, Colonel M. J.

MacLeod, Capt. J.

Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham)

White, Sir D. (Fareham)

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

Robinson, Wing-Comdr. Roland

White, J. B (Canterbury)

Manningham-Buller, R E.

Ropner, Col. L.

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Marlowe, A A. H.

Scott, Lord W.

Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

Marples, A. E.

Smiles Lt.-Col. Sir W.

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Marsden, Capt. A.

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

Winterton, Rt. Hon Earl.

Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

Smithers, Sir W.

Young, Sir A. S L. (Partick)

Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)

Snadden, W. M.

Maude, J. C.

Spearman, A. C. M

TELLERS FOR THE AYES

Medlicolt, F

Spence, H. R.

Mr. Butcher and Mr. Beechmar

NOES

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Dodds, N. N.

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

Irving, W. J.

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Dumpleton, C. W.

Janner, B.

Anderson, A. (Motherwell)

Durbin, E. F. M.

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Dye, S.

Jeger. Dr S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

Attewell, H. C.

Ede, Rt. Hon J. C

John, W.

Attlee, Rt Hon. C. R

Edelman, M.

Jones, D. T (Hartlepools)

Awbery, S. S.

Edwards, John (Blackburn)

Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

Ayles, W. H.

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

Jones, Asterley (Hitchin)

Bacon, Mist A.

Edwards, W J. (Whitechapel)

Keenan. W.

Baird, Capt. J.

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Kenyon, C

Balfour, A.

Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

King, E. M.

Bars tow, P. G.

Fairhurst, F.

Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.

Barton, C.

Farthing, W. J.

Kinley, J.

Battley, J. R.

Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

Kirby. B V.

Bechervaise, A. E

Follick, M.

Kirkwood, D

Bellenger, F. J.

Foot, M. M.

Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J

Berry, H.

Forman, J. C

Leonard, W.

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

Foster, W (Wigan)

Leslie, J R.

Bing, G. H. C.

Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

Levy, B. W.

Binns, J.

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

Lewis, J. (Bolton)

Bottomley, A. G

Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)

Lewis, T (Southampton)

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Freeman, Peter (Newport)

Lindgren, G. S.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'p'l, Exch'ge)

Gaitskell, H. T. N

Logan, D. G

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Gallacher, W

McAdam, W

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Ganley, Mrs. C. S

McEntee, V. La T

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Gibson, C. W

McGhee, H. G.

Bruce, Maj. D. W. T.

Gilzean, A.

Mack, J. D.

Buchanan, G.

Gooch, E. G

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Burden, T. W.

Goodrich, H. E

Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N W.)

Burke, W. A.

Gordon-Walker, P. C.

McKinlay, A. S

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)

Maclean, N. (Govan)

Callaghan, James

Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

McLeavy F.

Castle, Mrs. B. A.

Grenfell, D. R.

MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

Champion, A. J.

Grierson, E.

McNeil, H,

Cluse, W. S.

Griffiths, D (Rother Valley)

Macpherson, T. (Romford)

Cobb, F. A,

Griffiths, Capt. W D. (Moss Side)

Mainwaring, W. H.

Coldrick, W.

Guest, Dr. L. Haden

Mallalieu, J. P. W.

Collick, P,

Guy, W. H

Mann, Mrs. J.

Colman, Miss C. M.

Halo, Leslie

Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

Comyns, Dr. L.

Hall, W. G. (Colne Valley)

Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

Marquand, H. A.

Corlett, Dr. J.

Hardy, E, A.

Marshall, F. (Brightside)

Corvedale, Viscount

Harrison, J.

Martin, J. H

Crawley, A.

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Mathers, G.

Crossman, R. H. S.

Haworth, J.

Mayhew, C. P.

Daggar, G.

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Medland, H M.

Daines, P.

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Messer, F.

Davies, Ernest (Enfield)

Harbison. Miss M.

Mlddleton, Mrs. L.

Davits, Harold (Leek)

Holman, P.

Mikardo, Ian

Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W)

Holmes, H. E (Hemsworth)

Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.

Davies, S. O (Merthyr)

Hoy, J.

Mitohison, Maj. G. R.

Deer, G.

Hudson, J, H. (Ealing, W)

Morgan, Dr. H. B.

Delargy, Captain H. J

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Morley, R.

Diamond, J.

Hughes, Lt. H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)

Dobbie. W.

Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

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Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)

Ridealgh, Mrs. M.

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

Mort, D. L.

Robens, A.

Turner-Samuels, M,

Moyle, A.

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

Ungoed-Thomas, L.

Nally, W

Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)

Usborne, Henry

Naylor, T. E.

Rogers, G. H. R.

Vernon, Maj. W. F

Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

Sargood, R.

Walkden, E.

Nisholls, H. R. (Stratford)

Scollan, T

Walker, G. H

Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

Scott-Elliot, W.

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)

Shackleton, Wing-Cdr. E. A. A

Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Sharp, Lt.-Col. G. M.

Warbey, W. N.

Oldneld, W. H.

Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

Watkins, T. E.

Orbach, M.

Shawcross, Sir H. (St. Helens)

Watson, W. M.

Paget, R. T.

Shurmer, P.

Weitzman, D.

Paling, Rt. Han. Wilfred (Wentworth)

Skefington, A. M.

Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

Palmer, A. M. F.

Skinnard, F. W.

Wigg, Col. G. E.

Pargiter, G. A.

Smith, Capt. C. (Colchester)

Wilkes, Maj. L.

Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

Paton, J. (Norwich)

Smith, T. (Normanton)

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Pearson, A.

Snow, Capt. J. W.

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Peart, Capt. T. F.

Sorensen, R. W,

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Perrins, W.

Soskice, Maj. Sir F.

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Platts-Mills, J. F F.

Stamford, W.

Williamson, T.

Popplewell, E.

Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)

Willis, E.

Porter, E. (Warrington)

Stokes, R. R.

Wilmot, Rt. Hen. J.

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

Wilson, J. H.

Pritt, D. N.

Swingler, S.

Wise, Major F. J.

Proctor, W. T.

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Woodburn, A.

Pursey, Cmdr. H

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Woods, G. S.

Randall, H. E.

Taylor, Dr. s. (Barnet)

Wyatt, Maj. W

Ranger, J.

Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

Yates, V. F.

Rankin, J.

Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

Rees-Williams, D. R.

Thorneycroft, H. (Clayton)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Tiffany, S.

Mr. Collindridge and

Rhodes, H.

Titterington, M. F.

Mr. Simmons

Richards, R.

Tolley, L.

Original Question again proposed.
It being after Ten o'Clock, and objection being taken to further Proceeding,The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his report to the House.
Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.
Sir Waldron Smitbers: On a point of Order. I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that the Chairman did not put the Question for the total sum.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): What was done was quite in Order.

PRISONERS OF WAR (DETENTION AND TREATMENT)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn." —[Captain Michael Stewart.]
10.11 p.m.
Mr. Stokes: In the very short time available, which I regret very much—I express the hope that somehow or other the Government will find time for a discussion of this very important subject—I wish, once again, to raise the question of the continued detention and treatment of prisoners of war in this country and in British camps on the Continent.
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So far as my representations and those of other hon. Members of this House are concerned, they have always been met with the answer that the Geneva Convention no longer runs. But if one takes the trouble to study the Geneva Convention, as no doubt many hon. Members have, one finds that in Article 96 it is specifically laid down that any party to the Convention cannot unilaterally denounce it. Therefore, whatever may be the attitude of His Majesty's Government on the question of whether they do or do not like the Geneva Convention, the fact remains that we are a party to it. It may also be claimed that there is no German Government at the present time to implement the German side of it, but, surely, inherently in the declaration of the Prime Minister that fair treatment would be meted out to the German people as a result of unconditional surrender, it is our responsibility to see that the principles of the Convention are carried out. In fact, when the Foreign Secretary answered me in his claim that the Convention no longer ran, he said that His Majesty's Government proposed to follow out the intentions and implications of the Convention
I claim that that has not peen done. It is clearly laid down in Article 75 of the Convention that, as soon as possible after the cessation of hostilities, prisoners of

1185
war shall be returned to their own country, at any rate not later than the signing of the Peace Treaty. At the present moment they are not being returned to their country because the Government claim that they have no Government in Germany with whom to negotiate. But that does not lie in the Geneva Convention. In any event, as we have established an Allied Control Commission in Germany to govern the country, which will remain for many years to come, coupled with the fact that promises have been categorically given in the implied conditions of unconditional surrender, the Government ought to honour their obligations which, in my opinion as an ex-soldier, are being disgracefully dishonoured by His Majesty's Government.
I know that there are different views about this, but, surely, everybody who has studied this problem knows the appalling effect which detention for an indefinite period of time has on the moral and spiritual attitude of any person. I have always said that I should go raving mad if I were locked up for a week. Hon. Members opposite would obviously say that that would be a very good thing. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not necessarily."] That may be. It surely illustrates what I am trying to say, that here we have a large number of people, running into some half million—perhaps more or perhaps less, I do not know the exact figure—who are being detained beyond the intention of any regulation laid down under the Geneva Convention. We are sowing for ourselves seeds which will provide for us a crop which we shall rue having to reap at some future date. We are making bitter enemies of people of whom we ought now to be trying to make friends, and we have a golden opportunity in this country to do our best for them.
I know the whole of this question is an argumentative one, but I want to put this point to the Under-Secretary. I believe that the evil arises from the foundations that were laid at Teheran and Yalta. I was told—and I raised the matter on 11th April, 1945—by responsible officers that at Yalta it was agreed that the Russians should have two million slaves from Germany for 20 years after the cessation of hostilities. That was denied categorically by the then Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. I met the same responsible people the other day and I quoted the speech which was
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delivered to me on 11th April, 1945, and they said, "That is bosh. We are quite confident about what we told you 18 months ago that that is one of the secret provisions of the Yalta Agreement."
With that background, if the demoralisation of Governments is so universal throughout the world that they have no intention whatever to abide by any principles, which I know some hon. Members opposite have not, no wonder the present Government find themselves in their present difficulty.
Brigadier Head: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that officers who were present at the Yalta Conference, and who were in a position to know those secrets, told him of them?
Mr. Stokes: I am not suggesting anything confidential, because, obviously, no officer would tell me anything confidential. [Laughter.] Certainly not, because I invariably say to such people, "It is no use telling me anything that you do not want me to use, because it is certain that I shall use it unless you tell me not to." The hon. and gallant Gen-leman would probably be surprised because he knows these people well, but these persons are absolutely certain, as I am certain from what they have told me, that this is the background against which the present situation has arisen. I am not surprised that we have drifted into this appalling position. I speak for myself alone, but I am ashamed that any Labour Government can tolerate the position in which they have been torpedoed or jettisoned by the irresponsible lack of principle of right hon. Gentlemen opposite in this respect.
The facts, I believe, are as I have stated. The Geneva Convention is quite clear that these men ought to be returned to their country as soon as possible, arid, whatever may be in the Declarations or Agreements or secret understandings at these Conferences, I now ask, as do a large number of hon. Members on this side of the House, that there shall now be a categorical statement from the Government as to their intention, because the answer given by the Under-Secretary of State for War in another place last week was sheer buffoonery and incompetence of the worst order, which no reasonable person could possibly accept from a responsible Government. [Inter-

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ruption.] I do not object to people disagreeing with me. In fact, I should find myself in the most exceptional position if everybody did agree with what I said. I would think there must be something very wrong with my own point of view. I do not mind in the least if the hon. Gentleman does not agree with me. I say to him that I wish he had an opportunity of speaking, but unfortunately the time is such that nobody but the Financial Secretary will have an opportunity of doing so, and if I go on much longer even he will not.
This is one of the gravest problems with which we are confronted, and whatever the Financial Secretary may complain about, I do not propose to let it go out to the world that an understatement has been made, or that an insufficient statement of what the problem is has been put forward in this House. This Government are not alone. That is my complaint about Yalta. The same beastliness and tyranny are going on in Belgium, in Russia and in France. France is probably the worst of all. There are terrible stories that one hears of the treatment of prisoners of war, which would shame any of the decent French soldiers with whom I had the honour to serve in the last war but one. It is shameful to think that Frenchmen, who have the same degree of honour, should be treating these men in this tyrannous manner.
Mr. John Lewis Mr. John Lewis (Bolton)rose ——
Mr. Stokes: I have not time to give way. That is one point. We want a declaration tonight from the Government as to their intention.
The second point I wish to raise is the question of non-fraternisation. I, and those who feel as I do, ask that there should be an immediate following of the statement of the Government's intention, as to how long they detain these people, by a modification of the non-fraternisation rules. Perfectly ridiculous things happen. The other day I heard of the case of a woman who gave a chap a piece of cake, and she was fined £1 for doing so. It is almost as ridiculous as the German soldier in Germany the other day who was sent to prison for a year for not standing up when "God Save the King" was played. I have seen hon. Members
1188
sitting below the Gangway opposite who have not stood up when "God Save the King" was played, but they were never sent to prison for it. Surely, it is time these people were not punished in this ridiculous manner because of their political beliefs. I am sure that is the real feeling of hon. Members on this side of the House.
My third point—it is not the last point; I have about 17 more, but one has to be selective in this short time—following the statement of policy, with the alleviating of the non-fraternisation rules, is the question of paying the prisoners of war properly. If my hon. Friend will take the trouble to study the Geneva Convention he will find it is quite clearly laid down what these men should be paid. It is clearly envisaged, that not only shall they have what I call petty cash, but that there shall be a sum above that which should be set aside for their benefit when they are finally released.
Mr. John Lewis: Why?
Mr. Stokes: My hon. Friend asks "Why?" For heaven's sake read the Geneva Convention.
Mr. Lewis: They are enemy nationals.
Mr. Stokes: Surely every trade unionist at least on this side of the House will agree with me that if a man has to do a job of work he should be paid the rate for the job. I am what some people call a blackleg member of the party, because I am an employer. However, everyone knows I have always insisted that a man should be paid the rate for the job. Why, when one gets a fellow into the position of prisoner of war, he should be treated as a slave and paid a bob a day, I fail to understand. I altogether fail to understand why any decent trade unionist on this side of the House puts up with that for a single moment. The fact of the matter is that at the present time the Government are making something of the order of £750,000 a week out of slave labour. It is no use whatever our protesting against other Governments doing likewise, when we ourselves are doing it here.
I declare that this ridiculous payment of Is. a day is not good enough. We have to charge them for their keep, as I have been told already in answer to a Parliamentary Question amounting to

1189
23s. a week. That 23S. a week plus 6s. is 29s. The difference between 3os., roughly, and £4 is £2 10s. That is precisely what the Government are making out it. It is no use the Financial Secretary telling me they have to charge for the camp and all the rest of it. That is not the intention of the Geneva Convention. He cannot get out of it that way. The fact of the matter is that these men are not here of their own volition. Their colleagues in Germany, who happened to be made prisoners of war in Germany, have mostly been released, while they are being kept as slaves in this country because they happened to be captured early in the war and incarcerated here. I ask therefore for a revision of the non-fraternising order, a definition of what the Government intend to do in regard to their release, and that, as long as these men are in detention, they shall be treated fairly and squarely in accordance with the principles of this Convention.
10.26 p.m.
The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Ballenger): My hon. Friend has left me precisely four minutes in which to reply to a very serious onslaught on the Government. I may say that I have a good deal of sympathy with some of what my hon. Friend said, and so have His Majesty's Government. But it does not help his case to be violent about something which needs very careful handling. May I say at the outset that His Majesty's Government are trying to solve what is, legally, a very difficult problem? Although the Government do not base themselves entirely on this point, legally, in accordance with the Geneva Convention, we are entitled to treat these men whom we have taken as prisoners of war as prisoners of war, and the unfortunate part of my case tonight is that I have to answer in a special capacity, namely, as the representative of the War Office, which does not make policy but is merely the guardian of these prisoners of war.
What my hon. Friend said about the Government making a profit out of the prisoners of war is quite inaccurate. It is quite untrue. The Government are not making a profit out of the prisoners of
1190
war, otherwise I should say that it would be very immoral indeed. [An HON. MEMBER: "Where is the money going? "] if we go into the pounds, shillings and pence, as we may have to do, though it is impossible tonight, I can assure my hon. Friend, and the House, that we can show that we are not making a profit on them. Indeed, toy hon. Friend has offered no real conclusive evidence that we are making a profit. It is wrong. We are not making a profit. I think it would be very well, without prejudice to what the Leader of the House might say, if the House did have a more suitable opportunity for discussing this matter, not in the vacuum in which it has been presented tonight by my hon. Friend, but in a much more expansive manner. It does not do this country any good for wild statements such as my hon. Friend has made to go out abroad. We have a case, and indeed we are already sending many of these men back overseas.
All I can say tonight, although I have brought notes with me to answer my hon. Friend, is that His Majesty's Government, irrespective of any peace treaty that is to be made—and hon. Members must surely know how difficult it is to make any peace treaty; we have not yet made a peace treaty with Italy, yet the Italians have gone home in large numbers—many of the German prisoners of war are now on the way home, and they are going home every week. Two thousand of them are leaving this month, and our method is that those whom we consider to be anti-Nazis have high priority for going home because we believe that they are the best men to try and rebuild their country in the democratic spirit we want to see in Germany if we are to have any hope of peace in the future. I cannot say any more tonight, because my time is up. I can assure the House that the case we have to put when we are given the opportunity of putting it will be quite different from that presented by my hon. Friend tonight.
It being Half-past Ten o' Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Repair Materials (Schools)
  Repair Materials (Schools)
  Requisitioned House, Southampton
  Requisitioned House, Southampton
  Brick Production, South Wales
  Brick Production, South Wales
  Building Production Officers
  Building Production Officers
  House Foundations (Adaptation)
  House Foundations (Adaptation)
  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
  FLOWER SEEDS (IMPORT)
  FLOWER SEEDS (IMPORT)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Release Benefits (Deposits)
  Release Benefits (Deposits)
  South African Gold (Purchase Agreement)
  South African Gold (Purchase Agreement)
  EQUAL PAY (ROYAL COMMISSION)
  EQUAL PAY (ROYAL COMMISSION)
EMPLOYMENT
  Rehabilitation Training, Dagenham
  Rehabilitation Training, Dagenham
  Forestry Trainer (Call-up)
  Forestry Trainer (Call-up)
SCOTLAND
  Nutrition (Children, Edinburgh)
  Nutrition (Children, Edinburgh)
  House Building
  House Building
  Legal Aid and Advice
  Legal Aid and Advice
BRITISH ARMY
  King's Regulations (Observance)
  King's Regulations (Observance)
  Release Deferment
  Release Deferment
  Civil Court Orders (Interference)
  Civil Court Orders (Interference)
  Personal Cases
  Personal Cases
  L.I.A.P.
  L.I.A.P.
  Burma (Punishments)
  Burma (Punishments)
  Saunton Golf Course
  Saunton Golf Course
  Shipping Reservations
  Shipping Reservations
  Closed Beach, Happisburgh
  Closed Beach, Happisburgh
  Bread Coupons (Leave)
  Bread Coupons (Leave)
  Cigarette Gifts (Distribution)
  Cigarette Gifts (Distribution)
  Demobilisation
  Demobilisation
  Compassionate Release (Restrictions)
  Compassionate Release (Restrictions)
  Overseas Tour (Middle East)
  Overseas Tour (Middle East)
  Marriage (German Women)
  Marriage (German Women)
  Missing Pay Books
  Missing Pay Books
  Release Benefits
  Release Benefits
  Quartermasters (Pay)
  Quartermasters (Pay)
  Gun Site, Hampstead
  Gun Site, Hampstead
  Singapore (Canvas Accommodation)
  Singapore (Canvas Accommodation)
  Aircraft (Released Men)
  Aircraft (Released Men)
PRISONERS OF WAR
  Food and Pay
  Food and Pay
  Bread
  Bread
  Political Outlook
  Political Outlook
  Germans (Number)
  Germans (Number)
  Italians, Dulverton (Withdrawal)
  Italians, Dulverton (Withdrawal)
  Segregation
  Segregation
POLISH ARMED FORCES
  Resettlement Corps (Officers)
  Resettlement Corps (Officers)
  Scotland
  Scotland
  ARMED FORCES (TRAINING AREAS)
  ARMED FORCES (TRAINING AREAS)
PUBLIC HEALTH
  Civil Nursing Reserve (War Gratuities)
  Civil Nursing Reserve (War Gratuities)
  Births and Deaths Registration, Mixbury
  Births and Deaths Registration, Mixbury
  Multiple Myelomatosis
  Multiple Myelomatosis
  Water Supplies, Oxfordshire
  Water Supplies, Oxfordshire
  TELEPHONE SERVICES (REQUISITIONED PROPERTY)
  TELEPHONE SERVICES (REQUISITIONED PROPERTY)
  GOVERNMENT OWNED LAND FOULNESS ISLAND
  GOVERNMENT OWNED LAND FOULNESS ISLAND
  MAIL SERVICE (OVERSEAS TROOPS)
  MAIL SERVICE (OVERSEAS TROOPS)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Animal Feedingstuffs (Exports)
  Animal Feedingstuffs (Exports)
  Fur Trade (Imports and Exports)
  Fur Trade (Imports and Exports)
  Factory Schemes, Sunderland
  Factory Schemes, Sunderland
  PALESTINE (JEWISH AGENCY EVIDENCE)
  PALESTINE (JEWISH AGENCY EVIDENCE)
  OLD AGE PENSIONS (VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTORS)
  OLD AGE PENSIONS (VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTORS)
  WEST AFRICA (GROUND NUT CROP)
  WEST AFRICA (GROUND NUT CROP)
  FURTHER EDUCATION SCHEME (MAINTENANCE GRANTS)
  FURTHER EDUCATION SCHEME (MAINTENANCE GRANTS)
  OAT PRODUCTS MANUFACTURE, ABERDEEN
  OAT PRODUCTS MANUFACTURE, ABERDEEN
Preamble
The House met at half past eleven of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISON): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name.
  Moved, That the Motion standing in the name of the Viscount Templewood on Thursday next do take precedence over the Questions standing in the names of The Lord Calverley and the Earl of Craven.—(Viscount Addison.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (NORWICH) BILL.
Read 2ª (according to Order) and committed, the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (WALLASEY) BILL.
Read 2ª (according to Order) and committed.

CIVIL AVIATION BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MINISTER OF CIVIL AVIATION (LORD WINSTER): My Lords, in moving that this Bill be read a second time, I should like to say at once that it embodies the policy, announced in the White Paper and in Government statements, of passing scheduled services of British Civil Aviation and the aerodromes used by such services into public ownership with three corporations as the instruments for executing the policy. The Bill has already
444
occupied fourteen days in another place, where it was finally carried by a majority of 270 to 91. It has therefore come under very careful scrutiny, which has resulted in several improvements. I was glad to agree to the acceptance of certain Amendments, and to the introduction of others, and as a result it is a better Bill. I look forward with respect to the co-operation of your Lordships in searching for possible further improvements. It has been said that it is not given to any of us to know the whole truth, and any sensible man is glad to learn from his critics and have his opinions disputed by those who hold opposite views. I think it was in that spirit that the Opposition spokesman in another place said:
"We are dealing with a Great British industry which both sides of the House and the whole country and Empire want to see prosper and succeed. It is the merit of our Parliament and people that once decisions have been taken people on both sides work loyally and try to carry out the common decisions of our land."
Your Lordships' House was the originator of my Ministry, and it therefore seems to me that it is a peculiarly suitable board of examiners before which to appear for my pass degree. An honours degree is perhaps more than I can hope for, but a pass degree will serve my purpose. Your Lordships constitute a formidable tribunal before which to appear with a Bill of this nature. It includes my predecessor in office, the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, who was also at one time Secretary of State for Air. May I say with great respect to the noble Viscount that constantly in my work at my Ministry I am brought into touch with the work he did and the great thought and care he showed in establishing that Ministry and in laying a foundation for British civil aviation.
In addition to the noble Viscount, there is the noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, another former Secretary of State for Air, three Air Chief Marshals, and Lord Balfour of Inchrye, who, when Under-Secretary of State for Air, was particularly charged with matters relating to civil aviation. We have the Chairman of the Brabazon Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Reith, formerly of Imperial Airways, the noble Lord, Lord Harmsworth, the President of the Air League, and such notable pilots as the noble Duke, Lord Hamilton, the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, and the Chairman of the British Overseas Airways Corporation. It is indeed a stiff

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board of examiners before which to appear.
When the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill was brought to this House noble Lords opposite accepted its principle and then proceeded to discuss it in detail. I hope that that procedure may be repeated and that the main structure of policy embodied in this Bill will be accepted without prejudice to the full discussion of details. What are the alternatives to the policy laid down which might be employed? I doubt if any one today is prepared to advocate 100 per cent. free private enterprise competition. If any noble Lord holds that view, I shall be interested to hear the argument developed. Are there still any advocates of free private monopoly, of a free chosen instrument possessing privileges and monopoly, but free of State regulation and control, or is it thought that there should be controlled private monopoly, a chosen instrument owned and run by private enterprise, but under supervision by a Minister of Civil Aviation? Such State control of private enterprise would certainly mean State subsidies to encourage private management. In other words, the taxpayer would be called upon to provide subsidies to produce profits in which he would not share.
For a variety of reasons, the State must be in control of much that is essential to civil aviation. The State is paying for the development of many most costly services, and it must obviously control, for instance, the meteorological services, it must conduct large scale research, it must integrate civil and military needs in the production of aircraft, and it must finance unremunerative but essential services. For these and other reasons, it is far better to let the State do the whole job than to construct a patchwork arrangement in which private enterprise and State control are mixed up. We are not alone in deciding that public ownership is the way to do the job. The trend of civil aviation is in the direction of national ownership of air lines. Nineteen countries, including the Dominions of Canada and South Africa, have nationalized their scheduled services. Twenty-three other countries have partially done so.
There is this great advantage in the public ownership of civil aviation—planning can proceed unhampered by considerations for this or that vested interest and all ancillary services can be integrated
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without let or hindrance. The whole business can be tackled more comprehensively, with wider scope and with more elbow room. Also, civil aviation, which has so many international and economic reactions, can, under public ownership, be kept more easily in step with general policy by Parliament. That can be done without Parliament interfering vexatiously in management, but allowing the Corporations to be conducted as the great business organisations which they will be. Many noble Lords desire to speak in this debate, and I do not wish to occupy an undue share of time. I fear that it would be tedious if I were to go through the clause by clause. It may serve your Lordships better if I deal with the main points at issue in different clauses, and if your Lordships are good enough to permit me to speak again at the end of the debate I will try to deal specifically with points which are raised.
Clauses 1 to 5 of the Bill deal with the establishment and the functions of the three corporations. By means of these corporations we can get the benefit of business management conducted with enterprise and energy, and preserve Parliamentary control on the broad issues involved so that civil aviation will develop in step with general Government policy. I am, of course, expecting to hear something about the "dead hand of Whitehall bureaucracy" and also about "strangling with Civil Service red tape." We do not intend to have either. The boards of the corporations will be appointed by the Minister, who can be brought to book by Parliament if his boards do not run the corporations well. These boards will have a double incentive—to make a success of a business job and to discharge great public responsibilities, and they will take pride in doing both. The Government will expect them to fulfil their public responsibilities, while leaving them alone to get on with the business job. It is not always the case, where a board has the first but not the second of these duties, that they interpret their duties to the shareholders with a sense of responsibility to the State. There will be three corporations.
This method of running civil aviation has been deliberately adopted after due reflection. We have rejected the principle of free private competition. But emulation and rivalry have a useful part

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to play in the development of an industry when so much is empirical. Each corporation will be restricted to operations in an allotted sphere, and, within its own sphere, will, in many instances, be doing the same thing in different ways. Out of the results which each achieves we shall find the best way. We want, at this stage, to have the results of varied experience to study. It must not be thought that these three corporations will exist and operate in water-tight compartments. Already I have regular meetings with the three chairmen, and the chairmen themselves meet regularly for discussion of matters of common interest. The relationship already established between the chairmen and myself is that we feel that we are partners in a great enterprise. We have worked out a relationship based on common sense and mutual understanding. In any case, the Bill provides that I must consult with a chairman before giving him directions.
The powers which the Bill entrusts to the Minister are powers which he must have. I am responsible to Parliament for seeing that Government policy in civil aviation is carried out, and for satisfying Parliament that money granted to the corporations is properly expended. I must have powers commensurate with those responsibilities. In a democratic system of Government, powers must be reserved to the Minister in his dealings with public corporations. Without such powers these corporations would be even less responsible than private enterprise, which is, at least, responsible to its shareholders. So this Bill provides that as regards the exercise of their main functions by the corporations the Minister may make orders which must be laid before, and can be annulled by, Parliament, while as regards directions to the corporations, the Minister consults with the chairmen before issuing them. The experience that we have already had with British Overseas Airways Corporation shows that these provisions will work.
I have spoken quite frankly about the Minister's powers, but there need be no fear that they will be used to interfere vexatiously with the corporations. The men appointed to the boards are men of a type who will certainly not fail to resist if they find that they are interfered with, and the Government do not intend
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that their policy shall be stultified by unnecessary limitations of the managements. Experience also shows that corporations of the type proposed in this Bill are an effective instrument for their purpose. We have only to look at the records of the corporations so far. B.O.A.C. has in a year increased its fleet from 172 to 212 aircraft. In the twelve months up to March, 1945, they flew 200,000,000 passenger miles. In the year ended March, 1946, they had increased that to 300,000,000 passenger miles.
The South American Airways Corporation, which started on January 1 this year, under very adverse conditions had flown 270,000 miles by May, and reports from South America show what an admirable impression those air services are creating there and what good has been done to our reputation as a result. The British European Airways Corporation opened up in February this year. By May it had 69 services a week to Europe. In April, 247,000 miles were flown, and 98.8 per cent. of schedule flights were completed. All this is a great testimony to the efforts of the maintenance engineers, working under inevitably adverse conditions at Northolt. All corporations show a record of new services, of increasing frequencies on every service, and of reductions in times and fares. They show great activity and progress, with their three prime watchwords of safety, regularity, and comfort. Those facts alone show in that in the corporations we have an effective instrument for executing our policy.
Clause 3 gives the corporations power to set up such committees as are necessary for efficiency, and in this connexion it will be convenient to deal with the question of Scotland, because a committee will be set up under this clause specifically to deal with matters of interest to Scotland. A good deal of time and energy has been misspent by misinformed people in endeavouring to represent the Government in general, and the Minister in particular, as indifferent or hostile to Scottish needs. Nothing could be further from the truth. What are the facts? The Government, from the first, have clearly laid down that a separate Scottish autonomous airways corporation, with power to run its own services, cannot be entertained—for good reason. Not only would such a corporation be uneconomical in management and operation, but it would run counter to the world wide and international conceptions

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which must govern civil aviation by reverting to local conceptions. It would be detrimental to Scotland, which would get less efficient services from it than she will get under this Bill. Apart from that overriding decision of policy, I have all along been solicitous about Scottish needs and I have been interested to notice that whenever I have met or gone to see deputations from Scotland I have always been able, after the preliminaries of clearing away misunderstanding, to reach harmonious conclusions, because I had already anticipated and done what the deputation wanted. I have always agreed to meet everyone who has wished to see me.
Scotland's needs will be met in the following way. There will be a Scottish division of the British European Airways Corporation and a Scottish Advisory Committee, with headquarters in Scotland, which will have access to the chairmen of the corporations and to the Minister, if need be. The chairman of the Scottish Advisory Committee will be a member of the Board of B.E.A. The principal officer of the Scottish Division will be a Scot. A regional board will be established to manage Scottish civil aviation aerodromes within the regional organization for the control of State airfields. Those are the provisions which will be made in respect of Scotland. Many of the details connected with these plans must be further worked out before announcement. This is because until this Bill passes, B.E.A. cannot be constituted or its board appointed. When it is appointed the board must obviously meet to discuss all that the plans which. I have outlined involve, before decisions or details can be announced. It would manifestly be most improper for me to take decisions in advance of deliberations by the board on their own business. All I can say at this moment is that the arrangements which I have outlined indicate beyond any possibility of doubt that Scotland will have ample opportunity to make her wishes known and to ensure that her necessities are met. These are not concessions which have been wrung from me. We all know that the cock thinks that the sun rises because he crows. Of course, that is not the case. These decisions were reached, largely on my own initiative, because the Government sincerely have Scottish interests in these matters at heart and it is my wish that the arrangements which I
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have outlined shall be implemented in a large spirit.
I will not say much about Prestwick, but for purposes of record I will point out that it has been designated an international airport and it will be used as a bad weather alternative to Heathrow. A proportion of transatlantic services will be routed via Prestwick and our internal services will be developed to link up with Prestwick and to meet traffic needs. International agreements also have been shaped in order to bring traffic to Prestwick. I have enumerated these points very tersely because of pressure of time but they suffice to show the arrangements made by the Bill for Scotland. As I have referred to Scotland I think I should refer briefly to Northern Ireland. I recently visited Belfast and had the pleasure of calling on the Prime Minister and meeting Sir Rowland Nugent. I discussed the civil aviation needs of Northern Ireland with Sir Rowland, and as a result of this very friendly talk a Northern Ireland Advisory Committee will be set up. Its Chairman will be a member of B.E.A. I am fully alive to the needs of Northern Ireland and it will be my endeavour to meet them. The Bill contains adaptation clauses to meet the cases of Northern Ireland and Scotland.
Clauses 6 to 18 and Clauses 21 and 22 of the Bill are concerned with finance. I will deal with these Clauses generally at this moment and hope for an opportunity of answering specific questions later. We do not intend to provide subsidies for rate cutting or other improper purposes. The financial provisions aim at making civil aviation self-supporting as soon as possible. We aim at securing international agreements to eliminate all forms of subsidy, but we must provide for financial aid for the operation of unprofitable services which are essential in the national interests. Many services will at once be profitable. Others must be tided over during development, and corporations must be tided over while they are building up their organizations, training aircrews, ground staffs and doing all the work that is required or re-establishment, and the establishment and expansion of vast organizations.
To put British civil aviation into the air necessitates financial support, which must be adequate, while not excessive. The corporations shall have that support. We are placing great responsibilities on

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them. They have to plan against the plans of other nations. We, who know the scope of these plans, appreciate the scale on which we must launch our own efforts. The Bill makes provision for giving such support. It also contains safeguards which I hope will satisfy your Lordships that financial provision will be prudently administered. The maximum capital for the three corporations is £80,000,000. Apart from temporary borrowings, capital will be raised by the issue of stock charged on the undertaking of the corporation, that is to say, it will be tied stock and not Treasury stock. The capital of B.O.A.C. was so raised, and it is held by the National Debt Commissioners. No issue of it was made to the public. The stock bears a fixed rate of interest, guaranteed by the Treasury as to capital and interest. Stock for financing the corporations will not be Treasury stock, but if stock is issued to the public it may carry the Government guarantee as to capital and interest, and will, in effect, be a gilt-edged security. Such a guarantee will enable capital to be raised at reasonable rates of interest.
The Bill gives the Minister power to make, with the consent of the Treasury, regulations governing such matters as issue, transfer redemption, and dealings. Government control of Corporation finances under this provision is considered to be fully adequate. There is also provision for Exchequer grants in aid of the revenue of the Corporation. No grant provision has been made for the period after 31st March, 1956, and the total grant which may be made up to that date cannot exceed £84,000,000. These grants will not be made in order to promote unfair competition on international routes, but only to provide services which are necessary in the public interest if these cannot be run at remunerative rates. I agree that the global sum fixed for these grants is fairly high to allow of rapid expansion of services, but I hope that we shall not reach the maximum which is permitted, because the fact of having a maximum does not mean that we shall just spend it because it is there to be spent. We shall endeavour to keep within reasonable limits.
Scrutiny of development programmes and estimates of cost will enable the Minister to satisfy himself that such grants are necessary and justifiable in the public
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interest. I agree that in the past there have been complaints from time to time about inadequate information being given regarding the accounts. I think that the omissions, certainly during war-time, have been due to the requirements of secrecy and security. But this Bill provides for annual statements and annual reports dealing with operations to be made and to be laid before Parliament. Full information will be given. I may require such information as I consider necessary for the information of Parliament. Certainly my wish would always be that the information shall be full, and that it shall be rendered to Parliament with the least possible delay.
There is only one other financial point with which I need deal at this stage. The international character of operations may require the Corporations to form associated companies. Those associated companies will be able to qualify for grants, which must, however, come out of the global figure which I have mentioned. Let me repeat that in the development stages there must be financial assistance by the State. Public ownership means that Exchequer aid must be enough to secure progress and efficiency. It will not be excessive, and it will be used in the right way. Parliament is chary of such subsidies, and I dislike the whole idea of having in any way to subsidize civil aviation. If it has to be done—and it does have to be done—we must see that subsidies are sufficient, that they are profitably used, and that they are reduced and discontinued as soon as possible. So much for what I have to say on the financial clauses of the Bill.
Clauses 19 and 20 and 39 and 40 deal with matters affecting the staff. Clause 40 will be dealt with in what I have to say regarding compensation. The Bill makes provision regarding the interests of the Corporation staffs, to ensure that they have proper terms and conditions of employment. All this has been considered by my Department and the Ministry of Labour. The Bill requires each corporation to consult with representatives of employees, to set up joint consultative machinery for settling matters by negotiation and by arbitration in default of agreement. These matters fall under two heads. The first may be described as welfare—terms and conditions of employment, safety, and health etc. The second is participation in management—that is to say,

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every employee shall be able to put forward his views on matters relating to his own particular job, or to the general working efficiency of the corporation.
In matters affecting welfare existing national machinery will be used as far as possible. As regards participation ill management, B.O.A.C. is already in line with what the Bill requires and has production committees now. I regard this matter of participation in management by employees on the lines I have indicated as one of the very greatest importance, and the three chairmen are already in consultation with me and between themselves to ensure common action to meet the requirements of the Bill in this respect. The skill and the experience of the workers of all grades must be woven into the fabric of the enterprise. We need to build up a chain for collecting ideas, suggestions and experience, and that will be done. The Bill requires me to institute superannuation schemes which will be supplementary to the national insurance regulation, and will involve contributions from the participants. There is also the question of the independent operators. They will be required to comply with Clause 39 as regards conditions of employment.
Clauses 23 and 24 deal with the reservation of certain air services to the corporations. Outside the scheduled air-services there will be scope for charter flying, and charter work will be free for all. Incidentally, it will enable interesting comparisons to be made between services run by the public corporations and services run by private enterprise. Legitimate and bona-fide charter operators will be encouraged—not merely permitted, but encouraged to continue with charter flying. Equally, the corporations will be entitled to carry on charter operations. These clauses have been designed to prevent private charter services from being developed into regular air services trenching on the ground reserved for the three corporations, and so defeating Government policy. The corporations will have to take the rough with the smooth, and they must not be exposed to sporadic inroads by those who only want the smooth, and intend to avoid having any of the rough. Charter operators I hope will understand that their operations must be bona-fide charter work, and not regular services operated under the guise of charter services.
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It is admittedly difficult to define legally what is a "scheduled air service", but it is an expression commonly used and well understood. Public air services normally operated in accordance with time-tables would be scheduled services, times and places of departure, stops and destinations being published in advance. The publication of a time-table is not the criterion of a chartered service, since services might be run regularly or frequently without any such publication. "Charter" in civil aviation is merely a form of hire, and the Bill does not restrict charter work if it does not develop into a systematic service open to the public. If a charterer does operate regularly and frequently over the same route for hire or reward, then he must have regard to the provisions of Cause 23; he certainly must not make the aircraft available to persons other than the charterers. But the operator who keeps to legitimate charter work—and believe me he will know if he is sailing near the wind—will find good scope for his activities. The corporations will be able to charter, because there may be a demand for charters outside the powers of charter firms to supply; but the main function of the corporations is scheduled services. I repeat that far from there being any hostility, there is every wish to encourage the charter operators in their bona-fide sphere of work. I see that an enterprising body of gentlemen who are starting a charter service are giving a cocktail party tomorrow, and they have been kind enough to invite me along. I have accepted that invitation with great pleasure; I shall go there and have a drink and wish them all possible success in their bona-fide operations. Clause 25 affects the existing B.O.A.C. and will bring it into line with the two new corporations to be established.
We now come to Part II. Clauses 26 to 35 involve questions of land and consequently of compensation. These clauses are a great improvement, and they have been improved in another place. I feel it would be right for me to pay a tribute to one honourable Member, Mr. Turton. With the great practical experience on these matters which he most kindly placed at my disposal we were able considerably to improve these clauses and to render them satisfactory to all parties concerned. In these clauses we are using or adapting principles existing in current legisla-

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tion. I do not suppose any Minister ever enjoys presenting a Bill which in any way involves interference with land, but in starting new enterprises it is not always possible to avoid doing that. You cannot make an omelette without breaking some eggs—though sometimes that is not true, because Lord Woolton showed us how to do it. There will be interference with land involved under some of the Clauses of the Bill and I will quite frankly and fully enumerate them.
Clause 26 deals with the compulsory acquisition of land. Compensation in these cases will be exactly in accordance with existing law, namely the Land Clauses Act, 1845, the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919, the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944, and the Requisitioned Land and War Works Act, 1945. The procedure for compulsory purchase of land is laid down in an Act which your Lordships have recently passed; you will be familiar with the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act, 1946. Clause 27 deals with the acquisition of easements and way leaves over land and rights to instal beacons, and so forth. The procedure for acquiring these rights is in the Third Schedule to the Bill. There is a right of appeal to the High Court. Compensation is also provided for in the Third Schedule in the case of diminution of value of land affected, subject to the 1939 ceiling during the five year period laid down in the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944. In addition, compensation is provided for damage done to the land in exercise of rights of entry for such purposes as constructing and maintenance of beacons.
Clause 29 deals with the control of land adjoining aerodromes. The Minister does not seek in this clause powers already effectively available under planning control. Procedure is by an Order subject to special Parliamentary procedure, and again your Lordships will be familiar with the Statutory Orders (Special Procedure) Act, 1945. This Order defines the area of land which is to be subject to control, and the forms of control which may be exercised; such control, for instance, as reducing height of buildings, cutting down trees, the removal of cables, pipes, and so forth. Compensation is provided for under three heads: first, the diminution in value of land affected, which is subject
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to the 1939 ceiling with the appropriate supplements; secondly, compensation for disturbance—for example, loss of profits or goodwill; this is to be always at current values—thirdly, indemnity for the actual cost of carrying out the direction.
Clause 37 deals with the prohibition or restrictions on use of aerodromes in the neighbourhood of Minister of Civil Aviation aerodromes. The procedure is laid down in Schedule III and compensation is provided for in Schedule VI under two heads: first, where the aerodrome is a land aerodrome, compensation for diminution in the value of land is subject again to the 1939 ceiling; secondly, whether the aerodrome is a land or sea aerodrome, compensation is provided for in respect of loss of goodwill and profits to persons disturbed. Compensation under both these heads is subject to the aerodrome having been established with the Minister's consent subsequent to the Bill receiving Royal Assent. If it was established before the Bill is passed, compensation will be irrespective of Ministerial consent. Clause 28 empowers the Minister of Transport to stop up highways crossing or skirting Minister of Civil Aviation aerodromes, and the Minister of Transport is given ample power in this clause to provide alternative highways and substitute rights of access, and he will be able to use the machinery of the courts in furtherance of general highway policy. Before leaving this admittedly complicated section I should add that compensation for statutory undertakers is dealt with, and also the adjustment of their undertakings in accordance with principles of existing law.
I regret the length and complication of this subject but whether your Lordships agree or not with all that has been laid down, I feel you will agree that these matters have been very carefully studied and every effort has been made to follow principles which have already received the approval and assent of various Parliaments under various Governments. Compensation for loss of employment or loss or diminution of emoluments by aerodrome personnel is dealt with in Clause 40. We expect to absorb far more people than have been employed in such undertakings as we proceed with public ownership of aerodromes, and a few anomalies may arise. Provision has been made for dealing with this in Part III. Clause 36 deals with the Air Transport Advisory

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Council. The travelling public, the consumer, must have machinery through which complaints can be heard and representations made concerning the inadequacy of the service or matters affecting the service. This will be provided by means of an Air Transport Advisory Council. An Order in Council will be required to establish it. Complaints and representations will go direct to the Council, who can hold hearings in public, and there will be recommendations to the Minister.
The Council will not have the power to issue directions to the corporations but the Minister will have power to act on the representations of the Council, and will lay a report annually with a statement of what action he has taken. This Council will constitute an effective forum of public appeal against excessive charges and so forth. I have in mind a council of three or four qualified persons, under a chairman with legal experiences. The details of procedure and powers are being worked out. It is undesirable that such a council should have the powers of a tribunal, able to direct variations of rates and provision of services. Those are matters which must be left with the Minister who is in general control of the working of the corporations, but I would remind your Lordships that I have to lay a report on the action if have taken in response to representations made to me by the council.
In connexion with Clauses 37 to 38, I think I may conveniently deal with the subject of aerodromes. Up to the outbreak of war aerodromes for civil aviation had developed in a very haphazard fashion; private enterprise provided some, but in the main there was reliance upon local authorities to provide them and municipalities did provide aerodromes in many parts of the country. We see now that we cannot properly charge ratepayers with the cost of aerodromes for national services. The State must take over that job especially as it has spent a lot of money during the war on laying hard runways on aerodromes which are to be acquired, and that expenditure should not be lost to it. The State must take responsibility for aerodromes which are required for civil aviation services and have to conform to international standards of safety and control. The cost of modern runways and equipment puts aerodrome
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construction and equipment far beyond the scope of private enterprise. The aerodromes which are not required for civil aviation services can remain in the hands of private enterprise. We shall use existing aerodromes wherever possible and it is unlikely that we shall have to build many new ones. I am very glad to be able to say that.
I should like to deal with the question of the building at London Airport, which has aroused considerable interest. In order to bring together the requirements of the prospective users of London airport I set up a departmental committee, with the following terms of reference:
"To estimate the space requirements for the various functions to be performed in the London Airport terminal building, to prepare schedules of these requirements to serve as a guide to architects; to Indicate the essential functional relationships between the various parts of the building, and how the building might progressively be developed by stages to keep place with the development of the traffic capacity of the landing area, and with the expected growth of traffic."
The committee consists of officials of my Ministry who will, in the light of evidence received from prospective users of the airport, have the expert knowledge necessary to state the space requirements for the various functions to be performed by the building and to indicate essential functional relationships between the various parts of the building. When this committee has reported, I intend to throw open the design of the building to competition. In this connexion the President of the Royal Institute of British Architects most kindly undertook to assist me in nominating an eminent architect to sit on the departmental committee and act as an assessor, and I have appointed for this purpose Mr. Graham Dawbarn. I also propose to approach the Royal Fine Art Commission at the appropriate time. It is my intention that the winning architect shall be associated with the construction of the building and shall be responsible for carrying out any modification which may be necessary as the detailed plans are developed. The committee is working as rapidly as possible, but I ought to say at once that its work will obviously take many months to complete. Meanwhile temporary accommodation at London Airport will be developed to enable the airport to be used on an ever-increasing scale.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Will the noble Lord say anything about Earl's Court and its possible use in the years which will intervene before these plans are brought to fruition?
LORD WINSTER: That is outside the scope of the Bill, but that does not matter as it is a question of importance. I fear there is nothing I can add at this moment to what I told the noble Viscount in reply to a question which he addressed to me. The importance of a central terminal for civil aviation is fully recognised by the departments concerned, but there is a conflict of needs, and my needs in that respect have to be considered as against the needs of other departments. The necessity for such a central terminal is certainly not overlooked and I have good hopes of a satisfactory solution of that problem. I do not think I need trouble your Lordships with Clauses which refer to the registration of births in aircraft, the loss of property and insurance, or the appointment of special constables at aerodromes, nor with Clause 45, which deals with the provisions as to offences. I think the implications of those clauses are quite clear, and, as I have said, I will answer any questions which may be raised with regard to them. Clauses 46 to 54 deal with technical matters, as do the Schedules, and I think those are best dealt with on specific points or questions which may be raised in debate.
May I say one or two words on some matters in which I think your Lordships may be interested? First of all, as to research; so far as it lies within my power, I will endeavour in every way possible to stimulate research, to encourage the scientist to play his part in the devlopment of our air services and especially to bring the work of the operational scientist into the work of my Ministry and of the corporations. I am fully alive to the part which research and the scientist can play in this industry. On the question of research I would like to mention flight refuelling. During the war experiments in flight-refuelling were reconsidered in the light of war necessities and much work was done. I am trying to find out if this war-time work on flight-refuelling has any useful lessons for application to civil flight. Experiments are in progress, and have been for some time, and I can only say that their results justify their continuance. I am not yet in a position to indicate
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whether I feel they will result in something useful to civil aviation or not, but those experiments are being carried out.
I gave details in your Lordships' House recently of the committee which I set up under the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Pakenham to enquire into the relative merits of the various sites which have been proposed as suitable for a permanent marine base for our flying boats. That committee has worked with a commendable promptitude and my noble friend informs me that its report is completed and is on its way to me. That, I think, is very good work for one of these committees which are usually accused of wasting time and dilly-dallying. I think I should point out that the committee were only asked to inquire into this matter and to decide from the civil aviation point of view alone which is the best of the proposed sites. Quite clearly the report must be considered against a far wider background than the needs of civil aviation alone.
Other Departments are concerned, and there may be Defence interests concerned also. I should like also to refer to the Self Committee which has not been mentioned here, but which has been mentioned in another place. That is a committee which sits under the chairmanship of the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Civil Aviation, Sir Henry Self. It is a departmental committee which has been set up in agreement with the Minister of Supply and myself, and its aim is to bring together the operators, the Ministry of Supply and my Ministry, in order that there may be full and constant consultation on matters affecting the operators' requirements and also constant planning ahead in order to meet what the operators' requirements will be.
LORD MOTTISTONE: Before the noble Lord leaves the subject of committees, could he tell the House when we are likely to get the Report of the Departmental Committee on Flying Boats? It is a matter of great interest.
LORD WINSTER: That Report has been completed, and as a matter of fact, I believe it is on my desk at the moment. I should be studying that if I were not addressing your Lordships. The Report has been sent to me, and it will have to be carefully studied and submitted to other Departments before any final announcement can be made on the matter.
LORD ROCHESTER: May I ask whether the noble Lord can tell us if the Report will be published?
LORD WINSTER: A decision on that point will have to await the outcome of the discussions with other Departments which the Report will entail. It will not be a matter for me alone to decide, and many of my colleagues will also have to be consulted. The last matter I would like to refer to, about which we are conducting experiments and going into very carefully, is the question of the helicopter. Undoubtedly that is something which is coming to the front rapidly. We are investigating and studying that matter. My noble friend the Earl of Listowel is not here at the moment, but I think there may be developments in regard to the helicopter which may be of great assistance in the carrying of mails. On this and other matters I am in constant touch with my noble friend.
I apologize for what I fear has been far too lengthy a speech, but this is a longish Bill and I am trying to explain it with all the information in my possession. May I say in conclusion that the task confronting the Government is to build up British civil aviation to its rightful place. Our plans must have regard to the primary necessities of inter-Empire communication—that comes first—and then connexions with all other parts of the world. In this respect I remember that after I took office somebody informed me that given a certain type of machine no place in the world was more than fifty-six hours away from any other place. I said, "Just think that one can no longer get more than fifty-six hours away from one's wife and creditors!" But I have heard more recently that the time has come down, and now no part of the world is more than twenty-four hours away, given a certain type of machine. That emphasizes the necessity of working out these communications with all parts of the world.
We are participating whole-heartedly in the deliberations of what is called P.I.C.A.O. at Montreal—I think your Lordships will be familiar with those initials—in the erection of international coordinating machinery to promote orderly development of air transport.
The many agreements which we have concluded with other countries also aim at
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orderly development and they are concluded without prejudice to the possible future establishment of a multilateral convention based on order in the air. We are working in the closest co-operation with the Dominions, and have held Dominion conferences—one of which I had the great pleasure of attending—to ensure that the Commonwealth routes will be operated in parallel by national air lines but under arrangements for pooling receipts and common arrangements for economic and efficient operating. It is a cardinal principle of policy with the Government to plan our civil aviation in conformity with what we regard as the necessity for orderly development in civil aviation, and we intend to maintain that principle.
Our policy is that our air transport services shall, as a public service, be placed under national ownership and control, which we believe offers the best guarantee to the nation that the nation's air services will achieve the most rapid possible expansion consistent with economy and efficiency. We believe that zealous and disinterested service, leading to efficiency, initiative and enterprise, can be secured as well in this way, if not better than by the old system of private enterprise. Such successes as British civil aviation has achieved—and believe me, those successes are very real indeed, and would make a good story to the credit of British civil aviation—have been due to the air-crews, to the operating staffs and to the freedom from interference which the management have enjoyed. We shall retain those advantages, and we believe that public ownership will stimulate those who have shown great qualities in the past to even greater efforts and results. I commend this Bill to your Lordships as an effective measure for promoting that development of civil aviation and giving us our rightful place in world civil aviation. I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª.—(Lord Winster.)
12.38 p.m.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, the Minister at the beginning of his long and very interesting speech said he hoped that the many informed critics in this House would on this occasion and in Committee examine closely the progress or lack of progress of British civil aviation over the

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last year and the provisions of this Bill. I am sure that your Lordships, who are very well qualified so to do, will respond most readily to that invitation. I regret to say that it is against a gloomy background that the Minister presents in this Bill his plan—or perhaps in fairness to him I ought to say the plan which his extremists have forced upon him. I notice a noble Lord present who was one of them.
LORD STRABOLGI: I was out of the country at the time.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I observe that in all the debates in another place, in which the Under-Secretary spoke with such authority, never once did any spokesman on behalf of the Government deny the plain statement made in the Tribune, which I understand is a very well-informed organ. It said this:
"The Government did not want this Bill, but the Labour Party Civil Aviation Committee forced it upon them."
Be that as it may, let us take the facts of the position today. The Minister has rejected in this plan the partnership of all those with experience of aviation and transport. The prewar operators (with the exception, of course, of B.O.A.C.), the railways, the shipping lines and the travel agencies—all those, with their wealth of experience and their world-wide organizations, are rejected. He has slammed the door of this new industry in the face of any new enterprise. He is even seeking to impose upon his creature corporations very hampering and restrictive controls—unless this Bill is considerably amended, which I feel sure it will be.
The Under-Secretary, as late as the Third Reading of the Bill in another place, likened the Minister to "a schoolmaster with a cane in the cupboard"—a very happy description. The Minister himself did not appear to be quite satisfied with the role of schoolmaster merely—with or without the cane—judging by the homily that he addressed to the noble Lords who come from Scotland, who really take a considerable interest in matters affecting their country and who know a good deal about it. They may or may not be satisfied with what was said to them today, with, for example, the remarks in the course of which they were likened to "crowing cocks." The Minister appears
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to have cast himself for the role of le roi soleil—the sun which shines in its majesty and tells us where we get off. Even in the limited field of charter flying, the only scope which is left open to operators old or new, the Minister has (it is true that he skated very lightly over this in general terms) imposed really intolerable handicaps, as I will show, both on the operator and on the user.
Moreover, he has denied to the travelling public and to the great municipalities any effective appeal or remedy against excessive fares, however high they may be, against inadequate facilities or, indeed, against a complete failure to provide any facility or any service at all. This is vitally important. After all, we are here to represent the travelling public. That, at any rate, is how I see it, and that is the only attitude that I propose to take up in this matter. He and we are here to serve the public, and I shall certainly, at a later stage and in Committee, return to this complete ignoring of any effective right of appeal by the travelling public. The Minister was warned by very many people that this ideology—I suppose that is what one should call it—would lead to delay, to inefficiency, to wasteful expenditure. An executive of an American company having heard, some months ago, the pronouncement of policy which the noble Lord made, was heard to observe—and he said it rather sorrowfully because he was a sportsman—that this was the best day that American aviation had had for many a year. The warnings have been justified up to the hilt. I wish I could say otherwise—I do sincerely. But delay and inefficiency have resulted.
I am not sure whether the South American Corporation is really formed or whether it is still functioning as a branch of B.O.A.C. Certainly the European Corporation, with its responsibilities for the whole of the European services and the whole of the internal services, is not formed. There does exist a section, I understand, inside the B.O.A.C., with some people attached to it who probably will take part in the management of this corporation when it is formed. Under the plan which the National Government adopted, these corporations could have been formed immediately; but here we are, after a year, and the formation has not been accomplished yet. Everybody who at that time was concerned, emphasized how vitally important it was

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that the corporations should be formed, that the boards should be set up and given the necessary authority without which they cannot engage staff—unless, of course, the Minister is going to do all that in his Department and these people are to be merely subordinate civil servants, and have even the choice of their staffs dictated to them.
If they are to have any real power they must be able to choose staffs, to plan the details of the services, to operate them as soon as possible, to get all the detailed working arrangements fixed up and be in a position to link up—as I had arranged to do—with Transport Command, so that the take-over from Transport Command might be carried out as harmoniously and as conveniently as possible. But instead there is all this delay when we have so much leeway to make up. Leaving aside America, with the flying start she has got, look at what other countries, countries in Europe, are doing; look at the way in which they are outstripping us at the present time. The noble Lord said, I believe, that there were 180 aircraft (I think that was the figure but it will appear in Hansard) a year ago and that now there are 220. I do not think that indicates a very remarkable advance.
Let us take a look at some of these other countries. Take Switzerland, for example. The Swiss are flying air services from Switzerland into England and back, and that has been happening for quite a time. Until a few days ago there was not a single English air service flying into Switzerland. I would be much interested to know if there is one to-day. The Belgians are operating admirably on the Continent. They are flying machines between here and the Continent—I agree that so are we—and they are flying to and from Brussels and down to the Belgian Congo. And Belgium was occupied by the enemy until only a few months ago! Now the Belgians are flying regularly to the Congo. Their machines, I am told, make the journey to Leopoldville in twenty-five hours. We actually suspended the service to West Africa which was flying for certainly two years—the last two years of the war—with the result that under the new dispensation the whole of the air mail for troops, civil servants and commercial people in West Africa was suspended. I hope that it is going to be restored again now.
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I do not think that our record is a very good one compared with that of the Belgians who are flying quite regularly across the Sahara to the Congo. The Dutch, the Swedes and the French, too, are pressing on. Fortunately, the Minister of Civil Aviation inherited the Commonwealth partnership, with all its mutual arrangements. He inherited a form of agreement with foreign countries and the results of a number of negotiations. I agree that a number of agreements have been concluded with foreign countries and with other countries. Some of those agreements are good and some are not so good. The object of such agreements, after all, is to run services. The public want our air services. They require them to be frequent, comfortable and economical—and they will not be satisfied with a litter of agreements.
I must mention one particular agreement to your Lordships, and that is the agreement which the Minister has made with Eire and which covers all the services between Eire and the United Kingdom. No aircraft to fly to Eire, except those en route to America which come down to refuel at Rinneanna. The whole of the traffic between here and Southern Ireland is to be vested in this company. There will be no right to fly any other aircraft. And it includes the traffic which comes by Northern Ireland, picking up in Ulster. Your Lordships will be surprised to learn—the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—that it is not a fifty-fifty agreement in which Eire holds half and we hold half; it is an agreement in which we are minority partners. We have forty to their sixty. The proportion of management on the Board is a sixty-forty one.
This is a most extraordinary agreement to have made. It was defended by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation on the amazing ground that the Chicago Agreement which I entered into prohibited us from making a fifty-fifty agreement with a foreign country. There are two points to be made in answer to that. The first is that the Chicago Agreement provides no such thing. If I am challenged on that, I will prove it to the hilt, and if the noble Lord, Lord Winster, will study the Chicago Agreement, he will see that the clause quoted was against camouflaged companies, and that there is a whole section dealing with the establishment of joint

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operating companies encouraging their formation. I think that the noble Lord himself has made an agreement with Egypt under which the partnership for joint air-lines is to be a fifty-fifty partnership. But even if he were right about this provision relating to foreign countries, I would point out that this is the first time we have heard any member of His Majesty's Government intimate that we regard Eire as a foreign country. It is a most extraordinary explanation which the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State gave, and I should have thought it more convenient for such a suggestion to come from the Secretary of State for the Dominions in a formulated statement, rather than from a Parliamentary "aside" by the Under-Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation. If the Minister had not tried to operate everything in the air he might have made a better agreement.
So much for the delay in services. The delay in aircraft is nearly as serious. On a previous occasion the Minister boasted of the happy marriage between his Department and the Ministry of Production. I have never been able to see why the Minister of Production should come between the man who uses the aircraft and the man who makes it. This Government seem to delight in obstacle races, in putting one obstacle after another in the way, not only of private enterprise but even of their own State enterprises. The Minister said that the period of gestation was not yet over. It is over now; and let us study the results. I want to be quite fair. Let us look first on the bright side. Some of the aircraft are being delivered. The Viking came out on time and is an excellent aircraft. It is interesting to recall that, at the time, there were a good many people in the Ministry of Production who wanted to buy something quite different, something which the operators did not want—I do not think that I am saying anything which I should not; if I am I shall be reproved. But this point shows one of the dangers of having irresponsible Ministries interposed between the operator and the producer. The man who does not have to do the job is always full of bright ideas while the man who has to do the job wants something different. The latter is the person who should have the say.
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I solved that problem by ordering 100 of the Viking, and I told the producer not to have any nonsense or to be held up by modifications unless they were for "essential performance," or for safety. The result of my action is that the Viking is in service and is a most excellent aircraft. The Dove, too, is well in production. I do not know how many of this machine the Ministry have bought, but I understand that foreigners are buying it very extensively and that it is very successful. But that was a private venture of De Havillands, and had little or nothing to do with the Ministry. The Wayfarer, which is also out, was a private venture of the Bristol Company, who received encouragement from the railways and from myself. The Tudor aircraft, which is so vital to the Empire routes and which was to be used on all Empire routes, is sadly behind. The York was only a stop-gap. The whole of the South African agreement which I made and to which the Minister paid such tribute was based on the assumption that the Tudor would be available reasonably quickly to take its place. I think I am right in saying that the South Africa Government, which at that time declined to buy American aircraft in the expectation of having the Tudor, have now had to buy American planes, just as the Ministry have, in order to run the African route.
Then there is the 14-seater Miles Marathon, a type particularly required for internal services and one for which, like the Tudor, the Ministry are directly responsible. I was on the point of placing an order for that a year ago. What has happened about it? Has the order been placed? If so, when? This 14-seater would come between the Viking and the small machine. The noble Lord talked about experiments. I want to ask—and I am very glad that the Minister is to speak again—about a very important machine of the future, the gas turbine replacement for the Tudor, whether it is the fat or the thin Tudor. It is vital that we should be getting on with that machine because tremendous progress has been made in the gas turbine in this country. Has the manufacture of the prototype been started? Is the design complete?
Another question which is being asked is about pressurization. I understand that the Minister had some experience of that, the other day. I begged him a good while

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ago—and I will give him all the help I can in this—to realize that everything depends on getting pressurization right. We have the lead in the design and production of gas turbines but I am not happy about pressurization. I was not happy about it when I left the Air Ministry. I was going to make very considerable changes. I am perfectly certain that to get pressurization right you must have some great chamber capable of taking a large section of the aircraft itself. That is a job for the Government, because it is experimental. Everything inter-acts under this pressure. The engines or the power unit may give trouble. There is the plant which takes in air, which heats or cools or wets the air, and keeps it at this right pressure. I gather that one of the reasons why the Constellations have been grounded is because of anxiety about this matter.
I believe that we have got the lead in the gas turbine, but the lead in the gas turbine is no good unless you solve the problem of pressurization. I am perfectly certain that instead of dithering about between the corporation and the people from whom they are ordering, we should concentrate constantly on great and continuous experiments in pressurization (which is a horrible word) at every temperature and every pressure. Then there would be a great contribution. If that is done, then I will hail this Government as having done something very real for civil aviation. So much for that aspect of the matter.
Now, what about waste? We asserted that there will be a waste of public money. The Minister quite rightly told the House the position with regard to subsidies. I would ask the House to note that the prewar operators, the railways, the shipping lines and travel agencies, were all prepared to put up their own capital, and to run a great network of services, as extensive as the Minister contemplates, with no subsidy at all. The only subsidy would have been upon Empire routes. The Minister now proposes to raise all the capital from Government funds, and to give enormous subsidies. If your Lordships will look at Clause 15, you will find the figure of £10,000,000 a year in each of the first two years, and there after £8,000,000 a year. The, Minister totalled it up and said that over a period of years it would be £84,000,000. As a subsidy that is perfectly colossal when it is borne
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in mind that people were prepared to operate without any subsidy at all. Whatever may be said with regard to the Coal Board, and all the difficulties past and present, I must say that I think this is a bad Bill. The delay and refusal to bring into partnership that great volume of experience which was at our disposal, the worldwide organisations of other operators of transport by air, land and sea, has already done great harm to British aviation, and will do much more harm.
What is our duty in this House? I think our duty is plain. By common consent we greatly improved the Coal Bill. Let us try by Amendments to make this Bill as good as we can, keeping always before us the interest of the travelling public, whom it is our duty to serve. I think that we shall be greatly helped by the work we did with regard to the Coal Bill. I am sure that the Government will agree to accept comparable amendments to this Bill. For example, the Minister's power should be to give general directions, and not to interfere with day-to-day management. That was very well settled on the Coal Bill. Similarly with finance, whether in regard to normal banking facilities or the creation and management of reserves, the initiative and conduct should be with the Board, the Minister or the Treasury exercising overriding powers only in the last resort. We should also follow the Coal Bill in prescribing the keeping and presentation of accounts. We should be informed as was provided in the Coal Bill—or the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act as it is now—when the Minister overrules the Board. These are matters which we can fully consider in Committee.
But there are two matters which so vitally affect the travelling public that I think I ought to refer to them now. The first has reference to charter services. The Bill restricts charter services in a way which I think your Lordships will agree is entirely contrary to the public interest. Personally I think—I know this has been much argued—that it is reasonable that the corporations should have the right to do charter work, although they must concentrate on their main and real job of running scheduled services. But there must be no preference in favour of the corporations in airfield facilities or anything else. I am sure that the Government will accept a provision in the Bill

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to that effect, just as they were anxious to provide against undue preference in the Coal Bill. I would direct the attention of the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, to the fact that as the Bill stands at the moment there is no such provision. I am sure he will agree that certainly we must put that right.
Applying the only test which it is our duty to apply, namely, the public interest, I think these restrictions are far too severe and will gravely injure the travelling public. The noble Lord said it was difficult to define what was a scheduled service, but that everybody would understand it. I am not quite so sure. I know that people have employed able lawyers to try to construe this. But let us see what the position is. If your Lordships will look at Clause 23 (2), you will find that it states:
"In this section, the expression 'scheduled journey' means one of a series of journeys which are undertaken between the same two places, and which together amount to a systematic service operated in such a manner that the benefits thereof are available to members of the public from time to time seeking to take advantage of it."
I am advised that that means that it will be quite illegal for anybody except a corporation to provide a charter flight unless it is what I may call occasional and fortuitous. Let me take an example which I have discussed frequently with the travel agencies—particularly with the Workers' Travel Agency—who provide regular trips. This matter is of greater importance now with more general and "staggered" holidays. The Workers' Travel Agency for years have provided facilities for a fortnight's holiday. People buy an inclusive ticket. Noble Lords on the Benches opposite will be aware of the position. Some of them may have profited by it. You start from this country, from somewhere in the North it may be, on a fortnight's tour, going in the past by rail and by steamship, then by charabanc or by boat on the lake it may be. A night or two nights may sometimes be spent at different places. That, of course, is done regularly. The business could not be done otherwise. The people want to know the position and be able to book for these trips now that holidays are "staggered" from May until the end of September. I hope and believe that a great deal of that kind of travel is going to be done by air. It was one of the reasons why I and others
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persuaded the Bristol Company—they did not need much persuasion; they are very good people—to turn the "Wayfarer" which was designed as a freighter—into a sort of charabanc. It goes a short distance, some 500 or 600 miles, quite admirably and quite cheaply if it is filled up. These travel agencies will want to charter planes for that quite admirable service, and if anything could be termed a charter service, I should have thought this a good example. But it will be illegal, under this Bill. It will be a regular scheduled service. If the ordinary run was, say, from London to Zurich, that might be called a scheduled service. In fact it is nothing of the kind. This is nothing but a round tour stopping it may be half-a-dozen times or ten times on the way. I am advised that, if such a service is provided, regularly, as of course it must be provided, because people must know when they are to go, that the only people who will be allowed to run it are these corporations. Is not that grossly unfair to the travelling public? What is to happen?
Supposing the corporation which has not enough aircraft to fly a regular service to Switzerland, or does not want to do it, tumbles down on the contract. There is no right for a charterer anxious to offer his services, to come in, and all the people who have booked through Travel Agencies are going to be deprived of their holidays because of this hidebound determination that nobody except the corporation shall run anything in which there is any element of profit or success. All this at a time when Mr. Bevin so rightly says to us: "I want everybody to travel, and the more people who can travel and get abroad and mix with the other people, the better." I do hope that by agreement we can remove that provision from the Bill. An exclusive monopoly is created.
I should like to mention just one final point. What remedy is there for the public if fares are excessive, if the facilities are inadequate, or if there are no facilities at all? The noble Lord slid gently over Clause 36. When your Lordships come to consider that clause in Committee you will see there is really no effective remedy. An advisory council is to be set up, and its members are to be anybody the Minister may select. Today he has said the members are going to number three or four, but he has introduced some Amendments himself to say that the council is to consist

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of technical, professional, industrial and commercial bodies, including organised labour and those directly concerned with the provision of air transport services, and persons who use the air transport services. If he gets that sort of "Uncle Tom Cobley and all" into three or four, he will be rather clever. There is no power in this body which will be set up. They may hear complaints and then report to the Minister, but neither the Minister nor the corporation need pay any attention to what they say; indeed, we may not know anything about it for a year, as there is only to be a yearly report. And as the corporations who are running the transport are to sit on this body it is not likely that they are going to agree to a recommendation which is contrary to their interests, or which they think may be contrary to their interests.
There is no power to order the corporation to reduce the fares, however high they are and however little relation they bear to the fares which are charged by the Americans, the Swiss, the Swedes, or anybody else. However inadequate the facilities, there is no power to give an order. Even supposing a service is not run at all, and that the corporation flatly refuses to run a service between two points in this country and somebody else is willing to run it, there is still no power to give any order to the corporation to run that service or to allow someone else to do so. This is treating the public with contempt. If the Minister wants a council to advise him, consisting of this conglomeration of persons and organizations, well and good; but the public want something more, and the public are entitled to something more. They are entitled to a judicial tribunal, with a judge or senior lawyer as the chairman, and somebody who is expert in air transport—somebody, I would say, with a great knowledge of general transport. That would be an independent tribunal.
The individual trader or traveller or, better still, the great municipalities who were very much interested in civil aviation, would have the right to enter complaints. Any reasonable complaint should be heard, just as the Railway Rates Tribunal or the Railway and Canal Commission hear complaints. The tribunal should publish their findings and recommendations forthwith. And I suggest that if the corporation refused to carry out those findings, then the tribunal
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should have power to licence another operator to do what the corporation was unwilling to do, provided the operator is financially and technically competent. The tribunal would, of course, be bound by any international agreement, and would be just as competent to interpret it as the Minister or I would be. I have based my appeal entirely on the interest of the travelling public. That, I think, is what we should do. We are here as trustees for the public. That is the least the public have the right to demand of this House and of the Minister, for both are here to serve their interests.
1.17 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, in your Lordships' House there are so many persons competent to speak with technical knowledge on this subject and to express their views in what may perhaps appropriately be called "winged words," that I hesitate to intervene. I do so only in response to the invitation which the Minister gave at the beginning of his speech that he might receive some indication as to whether or not the general conditions which applied during the debate on the Coal Bill would obtain again in the course of the discussion on this Bill. So far as the noble Lords who at more propitious hours of the day sit upon these Benches are concerned, I would only say that while perhaps not extending a very enthusiastic welcome to this Bill, we are prepared, as we were on the Coal Bill, to do our best, now that it has reached its present stage, to ensure that when it leaves this House it will be a better Bill than it was when it arrived. Perhaps I might add this. I hope the parallel of the Coal Bill will not be carried through to the end; that the matter will finish when the Bill leaves this House, and that the Minister in charge of this Bill will not follow the example of his colleague by uttering minatory rumblings during the succeeding week-end over the action taken by this House in assisting to improve the Bill while it was in its hands. I have every confidence that that will be so with the present Minister.
I merely want to attach one condition. We see no reason why in time, and given various conditions, the system introduced by this Bill should not produce an efficient air service. That after all is its purpose. I do, however, want to attach one proviso, which may not be

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necessary at the moment with the present Minister in charge, but which I think it is important not to overlook. It will only be possible to run an efficient and economical air service if that intrinsic purpose is the only one to which attention is paid and no extraneous factors are allowed to intervene. There must be no question of any form of political pressure from one quarter or another, either within the sphere of domestic air service, or in the wider sphere of world air service as possibly interpreted in the light of foreign policy. It must be a question of running the most efficient and economical service in the interests of the travelling public of all nations, and particularly of this country, and no other question.
I have one other point, and only one other, which I want to add. As a humble and infrequent user of the B.O.A.C. service (and I confess, for my part, I would use it more if the Chancellor of the Exchequer were more complaisant in encouraging one in foreign travel at the moment) I would like to express the hope and indeed the belief that it is the intention to take over as far as possible the present staff of the B.O.A.C. into the new organisation. Although my experience of air travel may not be very great, I should like to take the opportunity, from that limited experience, of paying tribute to the efficiency, helpfulness and courtesy which I think all your Lordships who have ever taken advantage of the B.O.A.C. services, will agree is shown by the personnel of that Corporation.
1.21 p.m.
LORD TWEEDSMUIR: My Lords, I feel some diffidence in adding my brief remarks to the weighty speeches of the noble Lord, Lord Winster, and the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton. The nationalization of this industry is something new. Hitherto nationalization proposals have been confined to long-established industries which might be said to have reached their peak of productivity; but here we are nationalizing an industry whose power for the good of mankind is boundless and whose future shape it is not, as yet, possible for us to see clearly. To me this Bill seems a glaring example of the Government's apparent inability to discriminate between reasoned State control and outright State ownership. I will not dwell on the virtues of competition or on the value of the pioneer spirit, but it
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would almost seem as though the Government, in framing this Bill, were afraid of both, having regard to the harshness of the penalties they seek to impose on anyone who tries to fly a regular air service. A monopoly is being imposed. I know this is heresy to noble Lords who sit upon the other side, but to us on this side of the House monopoly is absolutely repugnant, because, quite regardless of the good intentions of those who impose it, it has certain inescapable and ineradicable vices, which you cannot remove because they are inherent. The first is an arbitrary attitude towards the wants of the public, and the second is the inevitable marketing of a second-rate product. In spite of the healthy rivalry to which the noble Lord, Lord Winster, has referred, they are inherent and they will inevitably appear.
Your Lordships will recollect the speech made by the Lord President of the Council some months ago, when he was on a visit to Canada. He said in effect that it was up to the nationalizers to prove their case, and he added that it was also up to the opponents of nationalization to prove theirs. That was very justly and fairly said. The case for nationalization, in the form it takes in this Bill, appears to me to rest for its foundations upon a slogan, and upon a rather misleading statement. The slogan is that this is the creation of "order in the air." There will be order in the sense that nothing disorderly will be able to take place, and in the sense that there will be Orders, restrictions and directions in great abundance. But, as the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, said, and as the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, said after him, our object must be to safeguard the interests of the public by building up a really efficient organization. That is a thing which cannot be ordered; it must be built. Then the statement. Listening to all these arguments it would seem to me that the principal foundation is the statement that private enterprise flying in this country failed before the war. I am not one of those to whom the noble Lord, Lord Winster, referred as unqualified believers in what might be called unlimited and uncontrolled private enterprise in this particular field. Private enterprise flying in this country before the war was perhaps not very successful, but neither was nationalized flying in any other country in the form which is now envisaged.

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There is surely only one criterion, and that is which country operates the most successful system. None of us are impressed by hearing a list of those countries which have nationalized or semi-nationalized civil aviation. What country has the most successful system? No one who has studied this question can possibly deny that the United States of America have the most successful system in the world to-day. There, I think, they have the best of both worlds; they have a reasoned control in the public interest, together with all the virtues of the dynamic striving of competitive enterprise. Your Lordships are probably familiar with the workings of the American system. They have the private companies and they have a non-political Board, totally unconnected with the operators, called the Civil Aeronautics Board, which deals with conditions of operation, fares, licensing and safety requirements and which, in fact, safeguards the public interests in every way. The American system pays for itself. The operators make a profit of round about £8,000,000 a year, and the public receives a magnificent service and its interests are fully safeguarded. It is envisaged in the scheme embodied in this Bill that for the first few years the subsidy will be of the order of £10,000,000, falling, I believe, to £8,000,000. Thus we shall see in America first-class, efficient, competitive enterprise paying its way to the tune of £8,000,000 a year, and in England the taxpayers finding £8,000,000 from their pockets in order to maintain a highly restrictive monopoly.
Every industry (and civil aviation is obviously no exception) has grown up by trial and error, and the gravity of the error is commensurate with the size and scope of the trial. The size and scope of this undertaking before the House to-day is very considerable, and if it should fail its failure will be little short of catastrophic. There is one more point to which I wish to draw your Lordships' attention, and that is centralization. For the last hundred years the tendency has been very noticeable—becoming, in recent years, very pronounced—for all activities, certainly those involving any expenditure of public money, to be centralized in London. That is having a most deplorable effect, particularly in Scotland, and
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no one who knows that great country can but be saddened by the devitalizing effect of centralization. It has achieved a measure of agreement between all Parties in Scotland, which may be a matter of some little concern to noble Lords opposite. One of the most respected Scotsmen alive, Mr. Tom Johnston, has been most forthright in denouncing it. We have some measure of agreement about this among all Parties. Surely now is the time to try to check this evil growth instead of accelerating it, by this kind of legislation, with a most tragic momentum.
The noble Lord, Lord Winster, went into the concessions to Scotland, as I think he called them, with great fairness of explanation and in some detail. Scotland, it appears is to have a Scottish Division of B.E.A.C. Without pitching the claims of Scotland any higher, it seems an act of purely natural justice that Scotland should be allowed to manage her internal flying. As far as I can make out—and I shall be delighted to be corrected by the Minister or any member of the Government—the function of this Scottish division is purely the day-to-day management, and administrative function of a branch of a Whitehall monopoly. You will never develop the genius, the energy and the enterprise of the great country of Scotland unless they have full operational functioning and full powers of initiative in this connexion. Internal flying services in this country have a future, as I see it, in cross-country routes. Distances are very small in this country, and there are a great many roads and railways, but the cross-country routes, particularly those involving the crossing of water, are the ones where internal flying will do a good business.
Routes which spring to my mind are Manchester to Bristol, Glasgow to Inverness, and then flights involving the crossing of water to the Orkneys and Shetlands—which now have a substantial population—and the Islands of the Hebrides. It is surely a very moderate request on the part of the Scots that they should have full initiative and full autonomy in running those services, when so many of the internal services will be flown in that country.
Then we are to have the Scots Advisory Council. I do not question the goodwill of the Minister or the Government in setting up that Council. I think they acted

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in the greatest good faith. I have not much faith myself in that kind of advisory council, nor can I extract much comfort from the explanation of its functions. London has received a great deal of good advice from Scotland which it has not taken. It is going to receive a good deal more to-day, which it will not take either. I must say that I cannot derive any very great comfort from this advisory board.
At the present moment I think that flying all over the world is the perquisite of the first-class passenger. Certainly long-distance flying does entail a good deal of expense, and we all look forward to the time when flying will not be confined as now to officials or business men, or others who get their fares paid, when it ceases to be the perquisite of the rich and when we get the third-class passenger of the railway trains into the air. We all hope that that time will come soon. When you get the third-class passenger into the air the man with a slender purse and a short holiday will be able to take a long flight to see his friends and relations in other countries, and I believe there will then be a great future for long-range flying from Scotland. Between the wars 400,000 people left Scotland for the New World, of which a large number went to Canada. If, and when, flying is made really cheap and brought within the range of the purse of the poor man, then you will see a tremendous demand for traffic from the New World to and from Scottish aerodromes.
I think the Government in producing this Bill, based on monopoly and centralization, and so prodigal of public funds, are making a very bitter mistake. I think that this country will watch with growing discomfort the progress made by alternative systems such as those in the United States of America, and I think that except for the blind protagonists of this ideology, who will bury their heads further and further into the sand in order to convince themselves that this is working, our discomfiture will become intolerable. That situation will change when wiser counsels prevail, and I do not think it will be many years before wiser counsels do prevail.
1.36 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, we have had a most interesting speech from the noble Lord who has just sat down,
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and I have a great deal of sympathy with his plea for Scotland, but I am afraid his desires will not be granted until the Act of Union of 1707 is repealed. It was inevitable that the concentration of administration and finance should be increasingly in London. I have great sympathy with the Scottish protagonists who object, but I would remind him that when the Railway Bill was introduced in 1919, after the last war, the Scottish railways, supposedly in the interests of Scotland, were made into a separate unit, and immediately there was a tremendous agitation. Viscount Younger, then Sir George Younger, whose son is a Member of the present House of Commons, led the Scottish pressure group who insisted that their railways should be bracketed, so to speak, because they could not be made to pay, with the profitable English main line group. I will ask the noble Lord to consider that experience in a not dissimilar case. If he looks up some of the arguments used then, he will find them very enlightening.
I am sorry that the way we run our debates in your Lordships' House leads to speeches from three or four different Party leaders or spokesmen, and therefore the speech given by the noble Lord, Lord Swinton, was not answered immediately. It was not answered by the noble Marquess from the Liberal Benches, and, except in one respect, I think the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, was in complete agreement. I would have liked to answer the noble Viscount were he present, but other exigencies denied him the privilege of listening to the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, or to me. The noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, suggested that the most successful private air lines in the world were the American air lines. Well, they certainly had an advantage in the past, although I am looking forward to the time when we shall be most formidable rivals. They have the great advantage of large land spaces, and the continuity of the Canadian and Mexican territory, and so on. There is also the question of the immense internal distances to be covered. I daresay the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, in his travels has spent a week in a railway train going from New York to San Francisco. When you can fly that in 24 hours, of course it has an immense advantage. There is no great advantage in flying from, say, Hull

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to Liverpool, because the journey at the worst of times does not take so very long. In the continent of America flying is an immense advantage for travellers, and that was the initial asset which American flying had.
The noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, is aware—I do not think the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, has quite appreciated this—that the American Air Lines are and must be entirely independent by law from the American railway companies, shipping companies and road transport companies. The main argument against the Bill that I could gather from the noble Viscount Lord Swinton, was that the Bill—to use his words—saw the closing of the door (as opposed to his scheme) to the railway, shipping and transport interests. Yet these ultra-successful American flying interests, as he knows, are entirely divorced, and must remain divorced, from the surface transport companies and their financial interests. I really think that the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, makes hay of that of the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton.
As the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, has not been able to stay in the House, I do not propose to follow him any further, except to say this. I think some defence is needed for the delay in re-establishing the West African services. The noble Lord made great play on the fact that there has been this delay and inconvenience caused, but I think it is only fair to remember that certain of those services were operated by Transport Command, which was under the Royal Air Force, as were many other services as well. The process of changing over from Transport Command to B.O.A.C. involved quite a number of problems. For instance in the matter of changing personnel it may be that in some cases people are not available or are unwilling to reengage.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: Will the noble Lord forgive my interrupting him—I am sure that he would wish to get this correctly? The internal services in West Africa, based on Accra going to Lagos and Northern Nigeria, were run by Transport Command. But the main line service through Morocco, Port. Etienne, Bathurst, Sierra Leone, Accra and Lagos was run, first once a week and then twice
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a week, by B.O.A.C. I know that is so because I was there—I was Minister Resident in that territory.
LORD STRABOLGI: I have been advised about the facts I venture to put before the House. If there is any inaccuracy I am very glad to have it pointed out to me. I know that Lord Balfour, by reason of his Ministerial position at the time, is well acquainted with these matters. As I was saying there is some excuse in regard to other services, at any rate in the matter of the change over from Transport Command to B.O.A.C. I have one or two suggestions that I hope my noble friend Lord Walkden will be good enough to pass on to the Minister, when he returns from his very necessary duties. In any case, no doubt somebody in the Department will one day read Hansard and consequently what I have now to say will not altogether be lost in the desert air surrounding the red Benches here.
There is, I know, no mention in the Bill of flying clubs. The Minister of Civil Aviation has the obvious duty—and I am sure my noble friend Lord Winster will do his very best in this respect—to encourage the development of an air sense generally in our population. One of the most valuable ways of making people air-minded before the recent war, and incidentally producing a great many partially trained or wholly trained flying men and other personnel, mechanics and so forth, was provided by the private flying clubs. I hope that in the general interest of British civil aviation the Minister will do all he can to help these clubs to re-establish themselves.
Something, I know, has been done. A hundred redundant training machines were made over to the flying clubs at a cost of £50 each. I would have thought it a little more generous to have given the machines to the clubs for nothing. These clubs are struggling with financial difficulties of all kinds, and I would have thought it worth while considering whether, in view of the educational value of flying and gliding clubs, the instruction which they give in flying, mechanics, aeronautics and so on, they should not rank for a subsidy from the Ministry of Education. I think they are worthy of a subsidy and of every other kind of help that we can give them.

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If anyone wishes to see the good results—or in this case the bad results—of the activities of gliding clubs, let him look back at the history of Germany under the Treaty of Versailles. Before the Germans broke away from the aerial provisions of the Treaty we know that the nucleus of a great air force was evolved through the promotion of numerous gliding clubs. I myself saw it going on in Germany. It was a most extraordinary business, and the movement received great help by reason of subsidies which were given surreptitiously by the German Government of the day. But, apart from the question of what that movement was designed for, I think the policy of encouraging private flying and gliding clubs is right, and they ought to be fostered here.
The second point that I would like to make—these are largely administrative points, but I think them important—is that in my view a little more imagination is needed by those who operate the priority system in deciding who should have priorities for air passages. I had a case brought to my notice recently in which a most important business man from South America was concerned. He was on the Continent of Europe and he was desirous of getting back home, but he wished to come over here first, and had he done so he would, I am assured, have placed some very important orders in this country. He is the sort of man who if Pan-American Airways had heard what he wanted they would have fallen over themselves to give him every kind of facility. As I say, he wanted to come to England on his way back to South America, in order to place a great amount of business here.
He was accompanied by his wife and his son—a young child—and he wanted passages for them as well as for himself. There was no difficulty about giving him priority by the British airline to South America, but he could not be given priorities for his wife and child. That, he was told, would be quite without precedent. They were not important people. Well, he was not going to travel without them. He mentioned the matter to the French Authorities, and the Air France concern agreed at once to take him immediately with his wife and child. They also expressed their willingness to take anyone else whom he might possibly like to have
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with him. I do think that this is an illustration of a case where a little more discrimination and imagination were required. Not only was the man a most important person in the business world of South America, so that from a commercial point of view it would have been to our advantage to have accommodated him, but had he travelled by a British airline to South America, as he wanted to do, that in itself would have been a very good advertisement for us.
The case for the Bill, as made out by the noble Lord, Lord Winster, in the really admirable speech in which he compressed such an immense amount of matter on so important a subject, is really overwhelming. But there is also the Socialist point of view which I am very proud to be able to express. We regard this Bill as only a step towards a great international air service. It may be years in coming but it is, I think, an ideal which all of us on these Benches have to keep in mind and to strive for. At the present time, the British Dominions, and I expect India, when India achieves the full status of sovereignty, France and many other countries, are prepared to join with us in making an international trunk air service joining together the most distant parts of the world. The Americans are against the idea, and so, I am informed, at the present time, are the Russians. That may not always be so. But it is our ultimate aim. We are all convinced that the only way in which a service can really be run which will give the third-class passenger, as I think he has mistakenly been called, or the "poor" passenger as the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, has called him, such facilities that he really will come into his own. Then you will indeed link nations together in a vast international combination, instead of having the incipient rivalries and hostilities which separate national services, we feel, are bound to engender.
The grounding of the Constellations as the result of the discovery of certain defects illustrates my point. The grounding of these machines has put out of joint, disorganized and disrupted both the British and the American air services. It has caused great inconvenience to many hundreds of busy people. Now there was a notable case for pooling. If one type of machine suddenly develops defects, then you should pool the others. Under

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a plan of international co-operation you would at once pool all the good planes that were available and so prevent all this dislocation and inconvenience. I admit that this is an ideal, but it is an ideal towards which we can work. After all we have had flying for only a few years, and our slight advance in civilization has taken many thousands of years to accomplish.
And now for the immediate future. Obviously everything will depend on the efficiency of the managements. I thoroughly agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Reading, said when he spoke of the admirable services performed by the personnel of B.O.A.C. I have travelled a good deal by B.O.A.C. since the end of the recent war, and I hear on all sides that the experience of other people has been the same as mine—that the personnel cannot do enough for the comfort of passengers and the efficiency of the service. That must be continued, and in matters of technical efficiency there must of course be continual improvement. Of that I know that my noble friend Lord Winster is perfectly conscious. The noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, complained bitterly of the railway and road transport and shipping companies, and travel agencies, being barred from the Bill. They are not completely barred. Several directors on the new corporations are the direct representatives of the shipping or railway companies or the financial interests behind the old dispensation. I have no doubt that my noble friend could not help himself in appointing these people and in time I dare say that personnel of the Boards will be modernized and improved. I am speaking for those who have taken a special interest in this Bill and in the whole subject of civil aviation in the new Parliament.
The noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, spoke of pressure on the Ministry to alter their policy. The noble Viscount is not here at the moment but I would have liked to tell him the story of the young boy who was kicked on the head by a mule in his father's field in Texas. It is the well-known Jackson case. The mule drove a dent in the child's brain. The child was rushed to hospital and a remarkable operation was performed so that the child recovered. He grew up to be quite normal, except that he had the peculiar characteristic of believing every-
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thing which he saw in the newspapers. When the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, believes everything which he sees in the Tribune—however admirable a paper that may be—or any other newspaper, I would remind him of the Jackson case. I was out of the country when the policy was evolved and announced but it was of course a Cabinet decision and it has the unanimous support of the Party for which I am speaking. Anything which we can do on these Benches to help in the future stages of the Bill or in the future development of civil aviation we will try to do. I am sure that in saying that I am speaking for all noble Lords on this side of the House. The management and development of civil aviation will be a greater test of our whole policy of nationalization and socialism than was even the coal mining Bill. We know that and if there are defects in the Bill they can be remedied. If there are defects in the administration they can be remedied, but we believe that the future is with us in the system which we have espoused and supported.
1.53 p.m.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I should at the outset refer to my interests in this subject. For fifteen years I have been interested in civil aviation, in the training of air crews, the operation of airlines and the development of airports, including Prestwick airport. I am at present connected with the operation of an airline which is called, somewhat unkindly, a pirate airline. We have, however, had the honour to be chartered by the noble Lord the Minister of Civil Aviation, so we may not perhaps maintain the buccaneer spirit to justify that title. There are two elements of principle in this subject. The first is that of public ownership of all civil aviation services. The second is the centralization of control of those services in London.
I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, referred to the question of the Civil Aeronautics Board. To my mind that is the perfect example of decentralized control, free initiative within the framework of Government and State regulation.
It is interesting to find that in your Lordships' House and in another place the Government spokesman who introduced this Bill skated with skill and speed over the arguments in favour of the Civil Aeronautics Board. The noble Lord,

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Lord Strabolgi referred to it and told us that America is a big place. Is not the Commonwealth of British peoples also a big place? Is communication between our far lying Empire not best achieved by air? Surely air communication has a wider significance to us than to any other people in the world. We have as much need of it as the Americans have. I only refer to that because I am interested in the Civil Aeronautics Board as a solution to the problem of centralized control.
In the terms of reference of the committee on new towns presided over by the noble Lord, Lord Reith, occur these words "the furtherance of a policy of planned decentralization." Do they mean that, or is it just one of the phrases which slip out from time to time and to which no effect is given. If they do believe it, then just as the noble Earl, the Postmaster-General, said that there must not be an east-end and a west-end to a new town so equally there must not be a north end and a south end to this island. If you believe in planned decentralization it is useless to think that you can distribute the hewers of wood and the drawers of water equally over the ground while you retain the marionnette strings in London. That is not planned decentralization. You must decentralize control. It is a cardinal error and omission of the Barlow Report; if anyone in future is to rewrite and develop the important theories examined for the first time in the Barlow Report I am sure greater emphasis will be placed on the decentralization of control.
I will mention some statements made by the most distinguished Socialist in Scotland to-day. I refer to Mr. Tom Johnston. He is a man whose name stands higher in the political world in Scotland than anyone else, whose success as Secretary of State for Scotland is unquestioned by men of all Parties, and whose absence from another place is universally regretted. In a broadcast last month, he said:
"Public ownership to me, and I am certain to many thousands of other men and women, never meant a vesting of the control of the publicly-owned industry in some long-distance bureaucracy. Are we in Scotland, for example to have elbow room and initiative in management, perhaps through some system of federated boards with, say, the powers of the Clyde Navigation Trust. Or are we to be directed from London as if we were an animal disease or a branch Post Office?"
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I will make one further quotation, if your Lordships will allow me, because it is exactly germane to this point. In an address to the Philosophical Institute on January 6, Mr. Johnston used these words:
"I am certain that any effort at depriving Scotsmen inside Scotland of control of their own affairs, will in the end fail, for not only does the growth of public business make the centralization of the Imperial Parliament economically and administratively impossible but renders devolution of some kind inevitable."
Not only is the control of Parliament getting much tighter, but the subject matter of that control is getting bigger every day. Decentralization affects all parts of the United Kingdom. I am not pretending this is a problem which affects only Scotland, but we see the effects of it with greater force. In January of this year a meeting sponsored by the Council in Industry—a body appointed by the Secretary of State to advise him on industrial matters—and attended by representatives of all Parties from both Houses of Parliament, passed a resolution that the administration of airports, and the operation of air services, the powers of initative and management, should be guaranteed to Scotland.
As a result of that, certain limited concessions have been made by the Minister. But, in effect, he says this: "If I allow any executive management outside London, it will mean chaos. I will not allow any executive control to take place at a distance of 300 miles." He says he will allow one member of the Board of B.O.A.C. to be Chairman of the Advisory Council. But it is virtually impossible, if you are resident 300 miles away, to take an effective part on any board in London. That is a matter of mechanics. You can attend occasionally, and give advice, but to take any executive and regular part at 300 miles distance is not possible. I therefore must object that the degree of centralization allowed to Scotland today is negligible, and will allow of nothing but a limited sphere of daily management.
I am sorry that the noble Lord is not in his place. I feel that he is somewhat mystified and uncertain as to why so much attention should be directed to his activities. I believe that his predecessor, Viscount Swinton, was for a time equally mystified: but Viscount Swinton saw the

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point and realized that there was a genuine case. Unfortunately, no such light has been vouchsafed to the noble Lord, the present Minister of Civil Aviation. He has not seen that there is a real case for decentralization. What I particularly complain of is that he has held no impartial investigation to ascertain where the necessity lies. How little he has understood it is particularly evident in one statement which he made, and which he repeated to-day, that the head of the Scottish Division will be a Scotsman. That is, I think, a unique utterance in Parliament, and I hope it will remain so.
Do you expect in return that, shall I say, the head posts in certain of the big departments in London should be reserved for Cockneys? Because that, in effect, is what he is saying. The statement is quite redundant, and it suggests, above all things, that the interest in this subject is sentimental. It is not sentimental. It is based on sound reason, founded on bitter economic experience. Moreover, there is no feeling that there is any malice in this matter—as the noble Lord suggested—no feeling at all. But there is a feeling that his policy is actuated by a profound ignorance of the situation, and by a large measure of indifference.
The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, (I regret to see that the noble Lord has gone), suggested that the only solution is to repeal the Act of Union. I do not think that is necessary. There are many who would repeal the Act of Union. But I think it is fair to look at the Act of Union as it stands. The Union was formed. On the one side the English asked the Scots to accept the Act of Settlement ensuring the succession of the present Royal line. The Scots on their side asked the English to permit free commerce between Scotland and the plantations on an equal footing with that conducted in England. Those two points were agreed, and political union was established. But now the political union assumes an entirely different atmosphere, when you change from a free economy to a closed and controlled economy. It was never intended at the time of that union that an economic union should be imposed on a political one, and that imposition is opposed to-day, as I am quite sure it would have been opposed at that time.
The last twenty-five years has been a period of hard-thinking. We have seen
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the evolution of that process of, shall I call it, capitalist concentration, which Karl Marx foretold about seventy years ago. It has been bitterly opposed, and by no one more than by Socialists in Scotland, who have used every epithet from their large and extensive vocabulary to throw at the capitalist; but what was the astonished horror at finding a Socialist Government in power with a plan of centralisation which put all the efforts of capitalists into the shade and far exceeded anything which had taken place in the capitalist world, and left no measure of power to Scots to deal with their own affairs. I must confess I am astonished to see that the Government have been able, through the exercise of Party discipline, to persuade the representatives from Scotland in another place to support the policy which they have put through. I have great sympathy with their supporters, because when they go back to their constituents and tell them that they have placed twenty-five per cent. of the industries in Scotland under the rule of Whitehall, I think they will have a great deal of explanation to do. We have had Whitehall parties formed in Scotland before, and those who are familiar will remember that historians have generally said that such men were seeking their own personal advancement rather than truly forecasting the political requirements of their country.
I want to explain some of the difficulties because I feel that noble Lord finds it difficult to appreciate the real interest which is being taken in these affairs. In Scotland we have been through a very difficult period. After the last war we failed to get a grasp of the new industries which were gradually developing, particularly the motor car industry and the electrical industry. We are going through a very difficult transitional stage. There are to-day more unemployed men in Scotland than in any other part of the country, and with 75,000 men unemployed it is felt that the same economic circumstances are coming into operation as existed between the two wars. This is already causing grave anxiety. Scotland is hungry for a new industry and it saw, or hoped to see, such an industry in the development of aviation which would have given the opportunity looked for. Moreover, it provided communications, the lack of which had always been the greatest difficulty in

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developing the commerce of Scotland. It remembered that the steamship was developed on the Clyde and had been of very great importance.
We do not believe that an organization based and directed from London will provide the services required. There are specialized problems which will be obscured by the great pressure of immediate circumstances in London which will make those of 300 miles away seem not so urgent. Take for example, the subject of Heath Row and Prestwick. Why did the noble Lord never put that in its true light? Why did he never say there was never any question of rivalry between Prestwick and Heath Row? Everyone in Scotland realizes that London has to have a great air port. There was rivalry between Rineanna and Prestwick, I entirely agree, but it does not give the impression that the problems are truly and properly understood or handled as they should be.
I would add further that the interests of Scotland are very often contrary to those which exist for London. For one reason we wish to by-pass London as a traffic centre rather than to pass everything through it. Furthermore, commerce with the Continent and with Canada was formerly more important and probably more intimate and close to Scotland than to any other part of the British Isles. Moreover, industrial contracts are placed at the head office. If I were a maker of telephones I should indubitably place my factory as near as I possibly could to the Postmaster-General. Furthermore, central control means the payment centrally of the highest salaries, which means drawing away the best brains from the outlying areas and concentrating them in London.
The noble Lord has expressed the view that there are technical difficulties which make it difficult and impossible to develop, shall I say, a measure of autonomous service from Scotland. I would deny that it is necessary or desirable to run an organization as large as that to which B.O.A.C. has now grown. B.O.A.C. is reported to have somewhere in the neighbourhood of 200 aircraft. That means with an efficiently run service B.O.A.C. should cover something like 150,000,000 aircraft miles a year—not passenger miles but aircraft miles; those aircraft should fly something like 6,000 times round the
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globe on the equator, and they should have an air crew staff of something like 5,000, which is roughly the equivalent on that basis of seventy to eighty squadrons of the Royal Air Force. I say it with respect, that I do not know any man in this country to-day who is competent to manage an organization of that scope and size. An efficient unit which would allow of some measure of personal control would be a unit of twenty to thirty aircraft, which should carry effectively about 750,000 passengers a year. It may be said that B.O.A.C. will divide up into small units of this character, but the real problem is how it is to do that. It was admirably put by Sir Andrew Duncan in the course of the steel debate. He then said:
"It is the most difficult thing in the world to secure a responsible, creative and flexible management in units when the real responsibility lies at the centre."
The Lord President of the Council was unable to reply to that except in these words:
"We must somehow develop managerial consolidation and managerial fluidity,"
which means that he did not know the answer, and that he had not really thought the problem out. The noble Lord has talked a lot about order in the air. One of the features we see to-day is a development very similar to that order which came to the railways which is a complete concentration in this City of London. There is nothing that has contributed more to the growth of this city beyond the size which is useful and desirable than the railway services which have led into it.
You can picture the noble Lord in consultation with his three chairmen, as we stand at the threshold of the arch of oligarchy, with the noble Lord in the middle—shall I say sitting at the peak of the Gothic spire, surrounded by a halo of corporations but somewhat obscured by a smoke screen of advisory councils? The worst type of bureaucracy which is operating to-day is that in regard to aerodromes. I am prepared to concede that there is a very strong case for public ownership of aerodromes, and the organization with which I am associated took steps to put it into operation in one case two years before the noble Lord was in power at all. I think that their case is strong, but I do not think a bureaucratic control is the way to run it. Only the other day I saw eleven Whitehall

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officials departing for the western islands of Scotland. I do not think they carried any pistols, but I do know they did not intend to spend the night among those outlandish inhabitants.
At the present time aerodromes are controlled by a threefold functional system and no one man is in charge of the aerodromes. The point at which these functions meet is uncertain, but it is probably at an unknown celestial point in the Ministry, and it leaves responsibility very vague. I want to say a word on the subject of Renfrew aerodrome. On that airport the noble Lord wished to make certain developments, and I do not blame him for doing that. He consulted ten local bodies, I am informed, and they included the Scottish Co-operative Wholesale Society, the boroughs of Paisley and of Renfrew. An official went down to see them, and he spoke to them. He made no satisfactory reply, however, to the objections which were raised on a number of important points, and in due course the noble Lord announced his decision. I do not object to clear-cut and hard decisions being made, but what did the noble Lord get out of it? He got one runway of 1,300 yards. One runway of 1,300 yards represents a runway which is below the standard laid down two years ago by the Department of Civil Aviation before the Ministry of Civil Aviation was established. It is below the standard of a fifth-class aerodrome. It is a runway which in point of fact cannot be used by any modern type of aircraft.
I will only say this in conclusion. I am pressing to-day, as I said at the beginning, for a measure of decentralized control. Planned decentralized control will never mean anything as long as additional and greater power are crammed into one area. If planned decentralization is to mean anything at all it must be spread over a larger area. London has become to-day more and more (and most people agree it is much too big) like a prehistoric monster. It is getting so specialized and so big that it will very soon be unable to perform the simplest tasks of life, and when it reaches that stage it will like prehistoric monsters become extinct. I would like to submit that this the greatest city in the world will only retain that ascendancy so long as she remembers that her strength comes from the provinces and that she is constantly reinvigorated by the provinces. If she stifles the vigour of the
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provinces, then she will cease to hold the great position in the world which she holds at the present time.
2.18 p.m.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, I told the Minister I would raise a point, which think is of real importance, as no doubt your Lordships will agree. It is a point that will not be raised by the people principally affected. I am referring to the danger that in our search for speed—one may say the lust for speed—we may produce aeroplanes which fly so fast that the unfortunate pilots will be condemned to a terrible ordeal. Already in these very fast aeroplanes that are projected the pilot must lie in a restricted position, so I am advised, and I do not think the Minister will dispute this—suffering great risks if he moves into a more normal position at the critical time. These brave young men, to whom as we have been told again and again—and we cannot be told too often—we owe so much, even our survival as a nation, will turn away from nothing in peace or in war. I do not think we ought to take advantage of that fact. In war-time I suppose the saying salus populi suprema lex may be taken by most people as true, but to say that the safety of the State is the supreme law is not true in peace-time. When it was found eighty or one hundred years ago that some coal seams were so thin that people who had to work them had to go on all fours, public opinion and your Lordships' House (notably this House) said, "No, that is a thing you should not condemn human beings to do."
Would it not be a strange thing if in this lust for speed you were to condemn the very people to whom you owe your life itself to conditions which were condemned by this House one hundred years ago? That is how it would be. I have not pitched it too high, for the tendency is growing. A special flight has been formed in order to get still higher speed. That is perhaps outside the purview of the Minister of Civil Aviation, although he must, of course, be well cognizant of it all. It may be necessary, but I doubt it. What is this lust for speed? Is it so that we may send the human body faster than it has ever been sent before? The human body can be sent in any ordinary shell (in fact it has been done and the man survived, but not for long) at 3,000 miles an hour. What folly to say we will

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not stop! What folly to say we cannot call a halt to the advance of science! We have got to call a halt, and I suggest we should call it when the conditions for the pilot become intolerable. I do not care what the other nations say or what the competition is.
I plead with the Minister for Civil Aviation, whom I wish well in all his schemes, apart altogether from the political question, to bear in mind that we ought not to ask these people to go through this terrific ordeal merely in order that we may hold ourselves out to the world as the nation which produced the civil aeroplane which flew at the greatest speed, or merely to snatch a profit which competing nations or organizations might otherwise take.
I gave notice to the Minister of my intention to raise the question of that important section of the public which lives on islands. Of course, we all live on an island, but I refer to subsidiary islands, like Ireland on the one hand or the Isle of Wight on the other. Those people have a special claim because it is to them that flying makes so great a difference. I will not, however, pursue that topic because the other is so much more important. In the interests of the pilots, I respectfully plead for the help of the Minister of Civil Aviation in this important matter.
2.23 p.m.
LORD POLWARTH: My Lords, I rise with great diffidence to speak on this subject. You have been listening this afternoon to a number of experts on different aspects of civil aviation, and it would be gross impertinence on my part, at my age and with my short experience, if I were to claim to be any sort of expert. But I did feel that I should like to say a few words from the point of view of a class of people which is, I think, sometimes rather apt to be forgotten in these discussions but which has some claim to be considered, namely, the ordinary non-priority, non-Government sponsored, honest-to-goodness passenger, or, as unfortunately is more often the case at present, would-be passenger. My criticism is, I am afraid, in the main destructive rather than constructive; but surely that is the prerogative of the passenger or the user, and it is the job of, and the very reason for the existence of, the experts,
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and perhaps most of all of the Minister himself, to provide a constructive answer to that criticism. If this Bill goes through in its present form I am afraid that very soon the ordinary passenger will have remarkably little chance of making his complaints and his criticisms heard.
I am going to make rather an awful admission; I am going to speak this afternoon also as a Scotsman. I know that the Minister, and quite a lot of others, probably wish by now that Scotland generally, and Prestwick in particular, were under the waters of the Atlantic ocean so that they could conveniently forget about the subject, but I think there are certain problems about our communications in Scotland which are rather different from problems in England. Owing to the nature of our country, journeys by land generally take longer in time for the distance involved than in the south. For example, at present it takes about ten hours to go from Glasgow to the Isle of Skye, where there is quite a considerable population. The distance involved is 140 miles, so the speed of travel is not very great. Then, with the present railway service, Edinburgh is at the fastest eight and a half hours from London, whilst before the war it was only six hours, which was quite good. Those are only two examples.
There is another reason why we are particularly interested in air travel. During the war we had in our midst the great airport at Prestwick, and in spite of all the security restrictions I think most people in Scotland knew just about all that was going on there. They knew about the vast numbers of aircraft which were flying regularly across the Atlantic from and to Prestwick, and in that knowledge there grew up not only a great pride in the fact that they were partly responsible for that great achievement but also a fuller realization of the possibilities of air-travel for Scotland. A great many of us resolved that when the war was over we would travel by air. I know that there is perhaps the feeling that we in the north can have very little reason to want to fly direct to the Continent, or anywhere else overseas for that matter, but I will give a true example. The local paper published in my home town in Scotland announced last week that a certain gentleman and his wife were about to spend a holiday in Paris. That gentleman happens to be my fishmonger. He is travel-

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ling by air direct from Prestwick, but unfortunately the only way in which he can do so is to travel by Air France; we ourselves cannot take him direct to Paris.
What, then, is the position nearly a year after the defeat of Japan? Our air services to the Highlands and the Islands continued during the war, and they were a most essential link. They are continuing still, but not on a very greatly increased scale. We have two services from Glasgow to Belfast, and they are operating at a greater frequency than they were a few months ago. That is largely due to the enterprise of a second airline (or a pirate airline, as we heard earlier to-day) which provided a very healthy stimulus to the existing service. But even with their combined resources they are utterly inadequate to deal with the present demand for air travel. It is impossible to book a seat on either of those two services to Belfast in anything under six weeks from the present date. I know that because I tried to do so two days ago. There is another service in which we are interested. As far back as last January promises were made by the Government that a connecting service from Prestwick airport to London would be provided. I believe in the last few weeks an existing service from Glasgow to London has been diverted to call there, but very little has been said about this and it has not been fully advertised. Even when I went to the Airways Terminal in London and asked which services called there and when, I was told by the representative of the service concerned that he believed that a service called there but that he really could not tell me which. I think that speaks for itself.
Lastly, our capital city of Edinburgh at present has not one single air service operating to or from it. I do not think that needs any further comment, but I very much hope the Minister will tell us why there is no service and when it is hoped that one will be started. Why is this the position? I dare say the Minister will say that this Bill is not yet law and that therefore he has not the power to provide us with better services. But I think the fact is that when he originally announced these plans last November in this House and accompanied his announcement by such dreadful warnings to would-be trespassers against them, it was enough to deter any company other than those operating at that time from
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embarking upon providing a proper service. Surely instead of uttering those warnings he should have given every encouragement to those persons anxious to run an air line in order to provide the service and meet the demand for air travel, quite regardless of what his ultimate plan was. Instead he has deliberately discouraged the would-be providers of services. I believe he limits the petrol supplies of the so-called pirate companies to quantities sufficient far sixty hours' flying a month. I am not an expert, but my friends who are experts tell me that sixty hours' flying a month is an entirely uneconomical amount for an aircraft.
What is the position about aircraft? Is it that there is a shortage of aircraft available to put on additional services? I know we have been very proud that we were going to use British aircraft on these services, but must we really be so proud? Where are all those hundreds of Dakotas which we purchased from America during the war? They may not be the last word, but they are perfectly adequate to operate internal air services. It does not require a great deal of pride swallowing to use those aircraft. After all there are a great number of Government officials who would travel in an American motor car without the slightest feeling of shame.
The next point is with regard to the fares. I think this is a matter on which the ordinary traveller can be forgiven his astonishment. The fares charged on internal services by, shall I call them, the chosen companies, the companies which were operating before and are going to be taken into this scheme, are on the whole somewhere between sixpence and eightpence a mile. At the same time we have a pirate company running a service from Glasgow to Belfast at fares of under fivepence a mile. That company is operating under the grievous handicap that it is allowed to fly only sixty hours a month. In spite of that, I am told that the company is working at a profit, although I doubt whether any noble Lord could accuse them of making an undue profit. I notice, too, that the majority of charter companies are advertising aircraft for charter at rates which work out at approximately sixpence per passenger per mile. If you were given the choice of making a journey by taxi or by bus

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over the same distance for the same fare, is there any doubt which your Lordships would choose?
As regard this pirate service from Glasgow to Belfast, does the Minister intend, as soon as this Bill is through, to put an end to what is the cheapest service between the two countries? I feel that the dire penalty threatened in a clause of this Act to which reference has already been made, would perhaps be more suitable for members of the Government who seek to break, if not the letter, at any rate the spirit of one of the paragraphs of that Act of Union to which the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk referred, namely, the paragraph which states that all subjects of the two countries shall have freedom of trade and intercourse between all places in the country and in the Colonies. If this state of affairs is to continue I cannot see why we in Scotland should be compelled to trail along at the tail, so to speak. Because we are three hundred miles away, the advantages will always be less, and I do not see why we should be penalized to that extent. That is why we ask that Scotland should have a measure of real control of her own air services. We do not want cut-throat competition or risk-taking—risk to lives or risk to aircraft—in the process, but we do feel that perhaps a little more is needed of that buccaneering spirit to which one noble Lord has already referred, and a spirit which was well expressed in some words written by a very distinguished Scotsman several hundred years ago, a forbear of the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, whom I am very glad to see here to-day. It will perhaps surprise noble Lords to know that these lines were written by him:
"He either fears his fate too much,
Or his deserts are small,
That dares not put it to the touch
To gain or lose it all."
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: My Lords, I am asked by the noble Lord, Lord Sempill, who was to have followed, to apologise for his absence. I cannot help thinking that his absence is a very great loss to this debate, for no one has done more for flying than Lord Sempill. I am afraid the noble Lord, Lord Winster, will soon wish that Scotland was below the sea, because Scotland is going to speak again. The people of Scotland do feel very sore at the way in which they
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have been treated and the plans for the way they are going to be treated. I would like to remind the House that Scotland, in relation to its population, has done more for enterprise than any other part of the Empire. If it were not for Scotland a great many enterprises would never have been undertaken. That great Dominion of Canada is full of Scots, and that is one of the reasons why Canada has set a splendid example of what a country of that character should be. That is all the more reason why there should be a direct line of aircraft between Scotland and Canada.
We have heard a great deal today about the desirability of controls. If you are going on to control, control, control, there will be nothing left to control. Scotland is suffering from that all the more because those who seek to control do not know Scotland, and I venture to say that the last place which knows Scotland properly is Whitehall. Yet we are going to be saddled with Whitehall and prevented from developing our own aircraft services, simply for the sake of control. I think it is time that this House put its foot down and said that it really represents public opinion more than do certain people in another place. If we go on as we are going now, Scotland is going to become poorer and poorer, because Scots people are not allowed to develop their own natural ability to advance, not only on behalf of Scotland alone but of the British Empire as a whole. In fact, I make bold to say that if it were not for Scotsmen the Empire would not be what it is. In view of our comparatively small numbers we have done an enormous amount of public service for the public weal of the peoples of the Empire.
We hold that this new service—for it is comparatively in its infancy—ought to be allowed to have Scotsmen directing its affairs in Scotland, if not outside of Scotland. I venture to suggest that one of the most successful private ventures in flying exists—or did exist, for it may be that it has now ceased to exist—at a place called Dyce in Aberdeenshire. There was a splendid air service from Aberdeen to the Orkneys and Shetlands and Norway, also to the West of Scotland. The success of that particular corporation justifies its continuance and the granting to it of opportunity for still further expansion. That applies also to Prestwick. Why

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Prestwick has been so much cold-shouldered no Scotsman can understand. It has enormous advantages over the new London airport. In the first place, it hardly knows fog at all. An airport which is subject to fogs is not only dangerous but it positively ought not to be allowed to exist. Fog is the greatest enemy of safety in flying.
I would urge that the noble Lord should really reconsider his decision with regard to Scotland. I cannot help thinking that the large portion of his speech which was devoted to Scotland was a piece of special pleading. He knew that he was on very poor ground, and I say that his special pleading to-day is a justification for the people of Scotland to demand more and more that they should manage their own affairs in matters of aviation in general. With these few words, I desire most heartily to commend the speeches which have already been made by Lord Tweedsmuir and the Earl of Selkirk. I am only sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Sempill, was not here also to give us the benefit of his vast practical experience in these matters.
2.45 p.m.
LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON: My Lords, I wish to bring out just two points. They are both points which have already been touched upon, but I venture to intervene as one who knows nothing about civil aviation from the inside. I have never been connected in any way with civil aviation, and so I can, perhaps, see the whole situation entirely from what might call the consumer's standpoint. I am just an ordinary consumer and nothing else. The first point which I wish to put forward has to do with the build-up of the organization. The buildup is, obviously, going to take some very considerable time. While it is going on there will be a shortage of machines, difficulties with regard to facilities, and even perhaps a shortage in the matter of facilities. Difficulties in connexion with the use of air transport for the ordinary person there are undoubtedly going to be. That is inevitable while the organization is getting going. For instance, it will not, for a long time, he as easy to take an aeroplane as it will be to travel by train.
We are getting to a state of mind now in which we are beginning to look upon
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airways as comparable to train services and other transport services. While our mental development is progressing in that way, surely it is of the utmost importance that the flame that has been kindled and which is inducing people to use air transport services freely should not be damped down or put out. Therefore, it seems to me that until the organization has got going properly there should be some kind of alternative to it. Why cannot we have many small private companies running scheduled services? That, at any rate, would be a stop-gap and would supply a need which is bound to be felt until the organization is fully completed. Whether the organization proves good or bad, the adoption of the suggestion which I have just made would in no way affect the situation. If the organization proves to be bad, then we might still have to continue the arrangement which I have indicated. It may be possible, or expedient, to continue with these small private companies—that is., if we are out to ensure proper efficiency in air services, and that, I believe, is what we want in this new organization.
My second point relates to the Civil Aeronautics Board in the United States. That Board is non-political. It is not connected with the operators and its main function is to safeguard the consumer. In this country, under the organization which is being brought into existence the Minister will be in pretty much the same situation as that Board in the United States, but with the difference that he is not connected with the consumer in any way. He is quite out of touch with the consumer, and instead he is connected most intimately with the operators. That, to my mind, seems to defeat the end of a good many measure; and the main end of this whole organization. It must be a great defect. Moreover it seems to me that the Advisory Council which is dealt with in Clause 36 of the Bill will not fulfil the function of the Civil Aeronautics Board of the United States, chiefly because of the relationship of the former body to the Minister and to the whole organization. Those are the two points which I wish to make, and I submit them to your Lordships to be judged on their merits.
2.49 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, we have had a most interesting debate, and the Minister who is going to

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reply will, no doubt, deal with the three forcible speeches which have been made by noble Lords on behalf of Scotland. Therefore, both on the grounds that points were made in those speeches in a much better way than I could hope to make them, and that the noble Lords in question know much more about the Scottish point of view than I do, I do not propose to touch upon those matters. I shall, like other noble Lords, look forward to the Minister's reply with great interest. I think that the whole House will be in complete agreement with the tribute that the Minister has paid to the staffs, the air crews and the ground crews of our air services, at home and overseas, for the work which they have done in circumstances which have not been easy. But it seems to me—and I am sure the Minister will agree—that Ministerial declarations as to our determination to obtain ascendancy in the air over all other rival countries, and declarations that our aircraft will beat all other aircraft at some date in the future, are not a substitute for positive achievement.
We are entitled for a moment to look at the position we are in to-day, after one year of the present Administration and approximately one year after Japan has surrendered. We have no civil aircraft of large size, of post-war types, yet in service. Consequently, such services as we are running in Europe in particular and on our internal services here, are being run inadequately—as regards accommodation in respect of the demand for passengers. Neither are our services comparable in comfort to the rival services offered in many parts of Europe by our competitors. In the third place, we have to-day no British services across the North Atlantic. I know there are reasons which can be put forward for that position; I could suggest the reasons that the noble Lord would probably give. They are very sound reasons from his point of view, but the fact remains that we have to-day a political Bill and very few air services over the world, compared with other countries. I put forward the contention that during the last twelve months we have lost in the race of technical and operational progress in order to achieve the political purpose to which the Government were pledged at the General Election.
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As the noble Lord, the Minister of Civil Aviation said, we oppose the policy, but it has been endorsed by a freely-elected Parliament as the policy to be put forward by those who obtained power at the last Election. We opposed that policy then, but we did not succeed in getting it stopped. The Minister has brought forward a Bill implementing the policy, and having registered our objections in the past we on this side of the House intend now to try to co-operate and to improve this Measure. And let me say, if I may, that we see plenty of room for improvement—as the Minister also will see at later stages.
Let me refer briefly to some of the points upon which we propose to concentrate, so that I may prepare the noble Lord's mind for what is to come in the next week or two. Our first objection is to the very wide powers given to the Minister in this Bill. Read literally, they are powers which are sufficient to enable him or any other Minister to run the corporations, day to day, in any and every detail of operation and administration. Both on previous occasions in this House and to-day the Minister has denied any intention of following such a course. Before this Bill was introduced, when noble Lords debated the White Paper on the subject, the Minister said he intended to exercise only remote control upon these corporations. Noble Lords on this side of the House took comfort from that assurance, but when the Bill was printed and in our hands we found little cause for comfort, because all the powers which we feared the Minister would possess are set out in detail in the Bill. While declarations of good intention are always welcome, what we have to consider is the printed word which Parliament is asked to pass.
Let us look at Clause 2 (3). This states that the Minister can define the powers of the corporation as he desires. Clause 4 says that the Minister may stop any activity undertaken by the corporation if he thinks fit. On finance, the control seems to us on this side of the House equally absolute. Clause 17 (1), says that the Minister can control what goes into the reserve fund, while subsection (2) of the same clause says that the Minister can control the management of the fund. I agree that in each case the Bill includes the words "with the approval of the Treasury and after consultation with the

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Chairman." But the Bill does give the Minister absolute power in the ultimate, although it enables him to meet the chairmen. I do not think that anyone can object to the policy of financial control by the Government in such a measure as this, but we think that the control should be expressed in general and not in specific terms. As regards these general powers, and as regards the question of reserves and accounts, we shall endeavour when we come to the later stages of this Bill to parallel the Coal Industry Nationalization Act, and to modify the proposals of this measure along those lines. If the noble Lord has any doubt whether I am right in what I say about absolute control existing at the present time, not only in general but in detail, he has only to look at this Bill. I think he will agree then that the Minister can control the directors as to where they order that their services shall be run, when and how the services shall rim, and with what they shall be run.
Even Clause 41, which refers to the registration of births and deaths, and which the Minister mentioned, is control, to the extent that the Bill does not provide for marriages to take place in the air. I think Whitehall control is complete when we get to that stage and in all seriousness I ask the Minister if regulations could not be made in order that marriages may be solemnized in mid-air as they may be at sea. My next objection is to Clause 23. I think that this is the most important clause of all, so far as we are concerned. This Bill restricts the scope of enterprise, and we feel that its spirit is alien to British character in that it clamps down on any expression of adventure or initiative.
In fact, there is a penalty of a fine of £5,000, or two years' imprisonment, for crossing the border-line between charter and regular services. The Minister himself has agreed to-day that that borderline is hard to define and in another place the Attorney-General did not succeed in defining it with any degree of clarity. Operators are liable unwittingly to cross this "equator" line at some time, and as the Minister says that he wants to encourage them we feel that there should be a much clearer definition of what is charter work and what is illegal or likely to draw from the Minister the process of prosecution.
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Under this clause, also, the corporations have a right to charter. Some of us do not like the corporations enjoying that right. They have great advantages in engaging in charter work, in comparison with private enterprise concerns. Although the corporations are supported in part by public moneys, they will have what I may call mass production facilities of maintenance. Presumably they will obtain petrol at advantageous prices, and will have many other advantages over the small private operator. At a later stage, therefore, we hope to hear that the Government welcome proposals which we may put forward to prevent undue preference being given to the corporations when they are engaged in charter work. We shall ask for an assurance, also, that accounts will show in great detail the results route by route so that we can see where the charter work has contributed to the revenue of these corporations, what routes are running at a profit and what routes are running at a loss. I am sure that the Minister will agree that only by such detailed accounts, route by route, can he implement the pledge that he gave to-day that the gram: of £84,000,000 in ten years is not for subsidies on regularly established lines, but for the development of uneconomic routes.
Another objection to this Bill is that research and development are not mentioned at all. It is true that the Minister told us some of his ideas with regard to refuelling, and something about helicopters, but he made no reference to what Viscount Swinton said about pressurization. Perhaps his recent experience, when, according to the Press, he and the Parliamentary Secretary suddenly found themselves in a pressurized cabin which did not pressurize, is all too recent in his mind. But what we would like to hear is something more about the progress of pressurization. We feel if the Minister is to exercise wisely the great powers which are given him by this Bill, then the formation of research panels technically qualified to evaluate the opinions of those technically engaged in design, construction and operation are essential adjuncts to the Ministerial administrative machinery. The Minister will be a sort of all-powerful trinity. In the future he will be the person who is able to say who are to fly, where they are to fly, and what they are to fly. Surely, if he is going to have all those powers, on broad policy

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grounds, he should have the necessary data upon which to base his decisions? I for my part wish that there had been placed in some part of this Bill a proposal or indeed an obligation on the Minister to set up properly qualified technical research panels, because the Advisory Council will not, in any way, fulfil that particular need.
The last objection which I have to make to this Bill is with respect to the procedure which will be followed for the ordering of new aircraft. As I understand it, the potential user will have to deal with four Departments when ordering the designing and the building of prototypes and then the production of any new type—the noble Lord's Ministry, the Air Ministry, the Ministry of Supply and the Treasury. All those, as my noble friend Viscount Swinton said, are new hurdles interposed in the obstacle race, the start of the race being the wish to get an aeroplane and the winning post being the obtaining of an aeroplane. It seems to us strange that the Government should put up these hurdles which prevent in major and in minor matters an absolutely clear channel between the potential user of the aircraft and the company which is designing and manufacturing in order to supply the demand. Could not the Minister devise some administrative machinery which would prevent Government Departments interfering by comment, criticism or suggestions in matters which are particularly appropriate for decision as between the user and the producer?
Of course, the Minister must reserve to himself, so long as the public is used to pay the bill, the broad policy of how much money is to be spent on new aircraft. We on this side would be much reassured if we knew that there was a positive direction, not only that nobody can interfere, but that nobody shall interfere, and that when there are conferences about accommodation of aircraft and conferences as to what engines are to be supplied, there should not be a predominant number of technical officials; they should rather be prominent by their absence instead of by their presence. I say nothing against them, but if there is to be a new type of aircraft, and it is to be a success or a failure, let the responsibility to the maximum degree lie between the potential user and the manufacturer, and not have matters so confused between the two and
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the various Government Departments that it will never be possible to find out where the blame lay in the case of failure or where credit should be given in case of success.
Another question on which I wish elucidation relates to the Channel Islands position. In another place yesterday, the Prime Minister answered a question whether this Bill was to be made applicable to the Channel Islands by Order in Council, and whether the States of Jersey had accepted the position. I feel, in the interests of all concerned, that if the Minister could clear up that position this afternoon, he would be doing a considerable service. My last question is with regard to the matter of aerodromes. There is in this Bill a lot about aerodromes on which I am not going to touch this afternoon, but about which I shall have something to say at a later stage. Can the Minister say something about the aerodrome facilities that exist in New York for British services? According to the Press, British Overseas Airways Corporation in future will not be able to go into La Guardia Airport which is the main terminal for New York. Idlewide, apparently the terminal corresponding to our Heath Row, is not ready. Therefore British Overseas Airways Corporation, the Government's chosen instrument, are to be banished to some remote aerodrome in Long Island. Surely, if we are stretching ourselves to the uttermost to give to the Americans the hospitality of Heath Row, even although it is incomplete, we should insist on having proper facilities for our aircraft when they reach America. Although we dislike the policy, so far as we on this side of the House are concerned, this Bill will receive a Second Reading. In giving it a Second Reading, we nevertheless hope that we are giving ourselves the opportunity of improving it in the future along the lines to which I have referred this afternoon.
3.0 p.m.
LORD WINSTER: My Lords, I have to ask your Lordships' permission to speak again in this debate. I hope that an indication may be given that I may receive such permission, in order to enable me to reply to the important questions that have been put.
I listened with attention to what the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, had to say. He said that I had spoken against a gloomy

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background. Well, I evidently inspired the noble Viscount in having to listen to a singularly gloomy speech from him. It would certainly have unnerved me if the speech had had any relation to reality, but fortunately it had very little, and consequently my head is unbowed. The noble Viscount spoke about my imposing restrictive measures on the Corporations. I have had no complaint of any sort from the existing corporation or the Chairman-Designate of the two corporations which are to be formed, on the passage of this Bill.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: What I quoted were the powers he is taking in the Bill. I said "He seeks to impose." If the noble Lord will correct the Bill and make it conform to what he says is his intention I am sure your Lordship's will be satisfied.
LORD WINSTER: I have had no complaints, as I have said, and the reasons why it is necessary for the Minister responsible for a public corporation to seek these powers have been dwelt upon by me at considerable length in my earlier remarks. I may be allowed to point out that the arguments I adduced have not been met. No reference has been made to the arguments I adduced in support of the Minister responsible. I have the powers which are conferred upon him in this Bill. The noble Viscount said there was no effective right of appeal by the public. I really cannot accept that view. The Air Transport Advisory Council is to be set up, and the machinery will provide the public with ample means of making their representations. The noble Viscount said I have only to report once a year, and consequently grievances may remain without redress for twelve months. That again bears no relation to reality in these days of the Press and of Members of Parliament who are very fond of putting questions.
VISCOUNT SWINION: The noble Lord has challenged me directly. I would ask him one question, and he need not answer unless he wishes to. Will he accept the recommendations of a judicial tribunal in the interests of the public and see that his corporations carry them out?
LORD WINSTER: My reply is that I think the provisions made in the Bill for the establishment of the Air Transport Advisory Council provide the public with
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absolutely adequate machinery for making their grievances, their wants, and their representations known. If the noble Viscount differs from that point of view there will no doubt be an Amendment put down in the Commitee stage and we can then argue the point. However, my reply to-day is that I am satisfied (and this is what I wish) that the public will have the opportunity of making their requirements known, and I believe the Council will provide them with that means. The noble Viscount spoke about ideology and what might have happened if the South American and European corporations had been formed long ago. It is all very well to talk about what might have, happened if these two corporations had been formed long ago, but the whole thing is governed by the provision of aircraft. I say that although we have not yet formed those two corporations, every aircraft which it has been possible to put into service on the routes which will in future be operated by those corporations when they are formed has been put into service. I deny that there could be a single additional service in operation to-day had those corporations been formed earlier. To speak of ideology having impeded the position there is a complete mistake.
The service to West Africa having been suspended was also mentioned by the noble Viscount. The fact is that those services were very temporarily suspended owing to the fact that certain officers concerned in the meteorological services were removed. Those officers having been removed, in the interests of safety those services had to be suspended until the meteorological services were resumed. That has been done and the services are now in operation. The noble Viscount said that we have no services, but we have a litter of agreements with other countries. You cannot have the services until you have concluded the agreements. You cannot put the cart before the horse in this matter. You must have these agreements before you can establish your services. The agreements have been concluded, and the services are now in process of being instituted following upon the conclusion of the agreements. If the noble Viscount is unhappy about the Eire agreement and does not agree about other agreements which we have concluded (I do not shirk discussion of them in the least, although they are outside the provisions

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of this Bill) I respectfully suggest that the noble Viscount or one of his friends should put down a Motion on the agreements we have concluded with Eire and with other countries, and I shall be very happy to go into it. But I do not think the matter is entirely appropriate for discussion on the Second Reading of this Bill. A great deal was said by the noble Viscount about the provision of aircraft. That again is outside the provisions of this Bill. Again I say that if any noble Lord opposite would care to put down a Motion on that specific question of the supply of aircraft, and of delays which have occurred in the provision of aircraft, I would be only too happy to answer those points. It is a matter of the first importance, and again I say I have no reason whatever to fear a discussion on those points.
The noble Viscount was quite right, if he will allow me to say so, in calling attention to the importance of the question of pressurization. In fact, it will be within the recollection of many noble Lords that in my earlier speeches on the question of civil aviation I myself called attention to the necessity of pressing on with this problem of pressurization. We cannot reap all the benefits which could accrue to us from the development of the jet and the gas-turbine-propelled aircraft until we have solved this question of pressurization. This does not entirely lie within the sphere of responsibility of my Ministry but, so far as I have been able to do so, I have set myself from the very beginning resolutely to forward it, and I have been knocking at an open door. The other Departments concerned are just as aware as I am of the importance of this matter and we are pressing on with it. The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, was kind enough to refer to an experience which I recently had. Like the reports of Mark Twain's death the reports were greatly exaggerated. I did not understand that the reason why the test was abandoned was due to any failure in the pressurization arrangements; at any rate, at 18,000 feet the pressure inside the cabin was 3,000 feet, and we were in perfect comfort. I thought it was really remarkable, and I would beg your Lordships not to feel that pressurization is a failure, and that something is defective because of a very unfortunate local defect which terminated
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the flight upon which we were engaged. If any noble Lords had been with me at 18,000 feet and realized the complete comfort of the atmospheric conditions, they would agree with me that we have indeed made very great progress towards the solution of this problem of pressurization.
The noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, was kind enough, in effect, to give me notice of certain amendments which will be moved in regard to the financial provisions of the Bill and in regard to the provisions affecting charter services. I should be happy to reply to-day to those points, but if amendments are to be moved on those subjects, surely it is better that I should reserve my comments until we come to discuss them. The noble Viscount's remarks deserve, of course, the very greatest attention, and I can assure him that I do give that attention to them, because his experience and his knowledge are of great value.
As regards aircraft, the "Viking" and the "Dove" are the forerunners of a goodly procession. We shall press forward with the "Tudors," and the "Marathon" is now being considered for an immediate order. As I have said, pressurization will be developed to the highest pitch, and a comprehensive programme of forward orders has been shaped by the Self Committee, to which I have referred. This programme will cover both production orders and the forward planning of new types, which will, of course, he subject to Government consideration as rapidly as the proposals take definite shape.
I do not want to say the noble Viscount was ungenerous, but perhaps he stressed certain delays a little. Most of the troubles which have been experienced are legacies. We have tried to carry through the construction programme indicated by the previous Administration, but, as the noble Viscount knows, it is not to be expected that we can overcome, without such difficulties and delays, the loss of development work on civil types during the critical war years. I think I can fairly say, however, that the programme is at last beginning to move forward. I have dealt with the noble Viscount's remarks concerning the Air Transport Advisory Council. I fully believe that Council will give the public the opportunities it wants for ventilating its needs and that full

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scope for municipalities and for all parties representing the public to secure the effective redress of legitimate grievances is provided through this machinery.
The noble Viscount foreshadowed certain proposals to adjust this Bill in parallel with certain amendments made by your Lordships to the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill. I cannot anticipate the discussion which will no doubt take place in Committee, but I must point out in advance that there are certain differences between the two cases. For example, this Bill provides for large financial grants, which must entail certain special stipulations as to the Minister's powers—the grants to which I referred this morning when we were discussing the financial provisions, the building of reserve funds and the rendering of accounts. I only mention this now so that these matters may be in mind when we come to the discussion in Committee.
As regards charter services, there is no simple answer to the noble Viscount's argument that air tours run regularly for the public should be left free to the private charter operators. The fact that the services are regular and are for the public makes them part and parcel of the field of activity specifically reserved for the corporations by the Government's policy of public ownership, and that policy must not be whittled away by a process of elimination. I have every sympathy with the charter operators, and I was quite sincere in what I said in my previous speech. I will encourage the bona fide operators. In the exercise of their proper rights under the Bill, and I wish them every success in their legitimate field.
In this connexion, let me say that I fully endorse the plea of the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, for the encouragement of enterprise and initiative in this field, which is, I believe, rich in possibility. There is really no ground for fears that the operator will not know what he can and cannot do lawfully, or for fears that the corporations will use the preferences afforded by their special status to enable them to compete unfairly in the private field. The proper sphere of the corporations is the sphere of scheduled air services; that will be their main preoccupation and they will not seek to "muscle in" unfairly upon the field which is left open by the Bill to the charter operators.
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I welcome the remarks of the noble Marquess, Lord Reading. He will perhaps forgive my saying that I notice that, as in the case of the Coal Bill, he is not enthusiastic although he is kind enough to support the general principle of the Bill. I welcome the support which the noble Marquess gave, and I most wholeheartedly endorse what he said about not allowing political prejudice or pressure to interfere in matters concerning civil aviation. The Bill now before your Lordships embodies certain principles by which the Government will stand, but once those are out of the way and the Bill is on the Statute Book, I assure the noble Marquess that there is no intention of allowing political prejudice or pressure to interfere with the development of our civil air services. As to what the noble Marquess said about staff and he employment of staff in the future, I can assure him that that is under close consideration. I think that in the upshot the noble Marquess will realise that we want to give the fullest and fairest opportunity to the staff he has in mind, and I fully endorse his remarks in that respect.
With regard to the speeches of the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, and other noble Lords, in which they again argued the views which those representing Scottish interests wish to put forward in this matter, I hope those noble Lords, to whose speeches I have listened with great attention, will forgive me when I say—and I say it with great respect—that I do not think they have brought forward any new matter this afternoon. The points which they have brought forward have been stoutly argued, and they represent an absolutely honest, sincere and convinced opinion on the part of those who represent Scottish interests in this matter, but I do not feel tint any new arguments have been advanced. They are arguments which have already been considered and in light of which the Government's decisions have been taken. I hope those noble Lords will not think I am treating them with scant respect or courtesy when I say that I feel that the statement I made this morning about the provisions which the Government are making in this Bill for the proper representation of Scottish interests meet the case. Under those provisions I do not think it is possible

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that Scottish wishes, needs and necessities can possibly be overlooked.
If there is to be a Scottish Advisory Committee, if the chairman of that committee is to be a member of the Board of B.E.A.C., and if that committee is to have access to the boards of all three corporations and to the Minister himself, surely it cannot be conceived that Scottish interests and Scottish requirements can possibly be overlooked. I think we may also fairly assume that the Minister is anxious to meet those needs and requirements. There is no reluctance to do so. We wish to give Scotland the best air service we can, just as we wish to give to the United Kingdom and to all British passengers who wish to travel by air the proper services. I claim on behalf of the Government that the provisions we are making in respect of Scotland are such as to provide machinery which will ensure that Scottish needs, interests and wishes cannot possibly be overlooked. With great respect, I do not feel there is anything I can add to what I have said on that subject.
As regards Prestwick, again I feel that the statement which I made this morning does indeed cover the case. I earnestly hope to see Prestwick developing a great traffic. Nothing would give me greater pleasure, and everything will be done to enable Prestwick to meet the needs of the traffic which develops. There is nothing which the Government has done or intends to do which in any way prevents any operator who wishes to use Prestwick from using Prestwick. If we are to talk about rivalry between London Airport and Prestwick, the rivalry does not exist. The matter is governed by where the passenger wants to go. I cannot control what foreign operators do about their routing, but if the passengers want to go to Prestwick the operators will take them to Prestwick. If the passengers want to go to London Airport, it is really no good the American operator saying, "You may want to go where you like, but I am going to take you to Prestwick." The essential point is that if operators wish to route their aircraft services via Prestwick no obstacle will be put in the way of their so doing, and the Ministry of Civil Aviation will see to it that Prestwick is developed and given all the facilites to enable it to attract and to meet the traffic which wishes to go there.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: Will the Minister give equal preference to Prestwick as he does to Ireland?
LORD WINSTER: I have given, and will give, no preference to Ireland in this matter. If the operators wish to operate their services via Prestwick, they are under no obligation to route them via Ireland. There is no question of giving a preference in this matter, and the operators are completely free to operate their services on the route which they think best. May I remind the noble Lord of what I said this morning, that certain of our services will be operated via Prestwick, and Prestwick will be given every facility to enable it to meet the traffic requirements which Prestwick attracts. There has been no question of giving a preference to Ireland. Under the Anglo-Eire Agreement, operators remain completely free to operate their air services by whatever route seems to them to be best.
May I refer to the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone? He made a very human appeal, and he always gets right down to the human factor in a question. Will the noble Lord forgive me if I say that I think he got a little mixed between military and civil flying? So far as the question of high speed affects the pilot, I put safety before speed every time, because I am concerned with the pilot; therefore safety comes first in my mind. As regards this question, one of the first considerations of British Overseas Airways Corporation—and I am certain the other two corporations will fall in behind them—is the welfare of their pilots. Not one of those three corporations is going to be indifferent to the human needs of the pilot. Over and above that, the pilots have their own organization which enables them to make collective representations about anything which affects their welfare or the conditions of their service.
LORD MOTTISTONE: If the noble Lord will permit me to interrupt, may I say that I mentioned at the beginning of my remarks that the pilots would not raise these questions themselves. I know many of these people who served us so faithfully in war and are now trying to serve us in peace, and they will not complain. The better they are the more determined they are never to complain. It is a unique factor, and I hope the noble Lord will bear

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in mind, and tell this House he bears it in mind, that these are not like ordinary folk who naturally complain when conditions are not good, but are people who have such a proud spirit that they refuse to complain, even when they are exposed to intolerable hardships.
LORD WINSTER: I do assure the noble Lord that I entirely agree about that, and nobody would be more responsive to it than I am myself. It is inconceivable that these corporations should ever wish to expose their pilots to intolerable conditions in the pursuit of speed, and, that being so, I do not think there is any need for me to say that no Minister, I am sure, would ever wish to expose the pilots to unfair and intolerable conditions. I fully endorse what the noble Lord has said, and he may rest assured that we will bear that in mind and see that the pilots are not sacrificed in the pursuit of speed. The noble Lord, Lord Fairfax, made a very useful contribution on the subject of London Airport, for which I was grateful, and certain things were done and movements made in respect of what the noble Lord said. In consequence I listened to his remarks to-day with very great interest. As regards the charter companies, the corporations can avail themselves of the services of those concerns. I spoke about co-operation this morning. The noble Lord said that we want to use private firms to supplement the corporations, and I think it is quite possible that a very useful sphere of co-operation between the corporations and chartered companies may develop.
I pass now to the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, and I should like to say, with great respect, that the noble Lord made a singularly fair and most thoughtful speech, which is of a character really helpful to the Minister. As the noble Lord knows from what I have said already, I cannot agree that our policy has delayed services. The fact that there is no service is not due to the policy which the Government have pursued. As regards the powers of the Minister, certainly I agree that good intentions are of no account, and it is the printed word which matters. But I have explained why, under public ownership, the Minister must be granted certain powers, because he cannot satisfy his responsibilities to Parliament unless he is granted those powers. That is the overriding consideration. It is not to give
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the Minister some power to do this or that; but the power in the Minister should give the necessary force to enable him to fulfil his responsibilities to Parliament.
Something has been said about permission being given for marriage ceremonies to be performed in aircraft. As the noble Lord who mentioned this well knows, marriages can and do take place in ships at sea, so what does he expect a sailor to say? Naturally I should be delighted at the prospect of marriages taking place in the air—there will be no hostility to it on my part. A noble Lord spoke about some of our provisions as being in the nature of a clamping down on initiative. May I beg the noble Lord to make some inquiry as to the number of charter services which have already been instituted by men of very considerable experience in the civil aviation world. The fact that these services are being set up seems to me proof that the people concerned do not feel that there is any clamping down on initiative in regard to charter services.
As to penalties, it is really not the case that everyone who infringes these regulations is going to be fined £5,000 and sent to prison for two years. Penalties will be inflicted by the judges, not by the Minister. It would be a grave reflection on the judges of this country to suggest that these penalties are going to be harshly and unfairly administered. It has been said that the border line is unknown. I can assure your Lordships that those who are acting bona-fide in these matters will have no need to fear that they may unwittingly have gone across what the noble Lord who spoke on this matter described as "an unknown border line." The next point concerns accounts. I want accounts which will give the fullest possible information and enable a fair judgment to be mark of the progress of these public corporations. I want to keep nothing up my sleeve. It is my wish that the accounts should give the fullest possible information in order that we, and the public generally, may be able to follow the progress of these public corporations.
As to research, I have made it quite clear. I hope, what my attitude is. I think it is essential that research should be centralized. It would be a retrograde step if one Ministry or another were to set up its own organization in respect of research. It is essential and of the very spirit of research that it should be cen-

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tralized. As regards procedure for ordering new aircraft, and what has been said about raising hurdles and other obstacles for operators to surmount in order to obtain their aircraft, I do ask the noble Lord to consider what I said on the subject of the work of the Self Committee. That is a committee which has recently been set up, and I think that their work will go a very long way indeed to meet the points which have been raised by the noble Lord and other speakers. In this connexion I am bound to say I do not know of any instances in which, when an operator has specifically asked for a certain type of aircraft, his wishes have not been met and orders have not been placed for that aircraft. I do not know of any such instances, but I will look into the matter again.
With respect to facilities in New York, I am satisfied that the United States authorities are doing their very best for us. They are grateful, and I know the American operators are grateful, for what we did at London Airport. They realize that we did our very best to enable them to come in there. I am satisfied that they are endeavouring to reciprocate and to give us the best facilities they can on the other side. But, as the noble Lord who raised the matter knows, the congestion on the other side is appalling. However, the authorities there are doing for us what they can. On the last point raised, that with regard to the Channel Islands, I may say that we have had conferences with the Island authorities, and they wish the Bill to be applied to them by Order in Council. We have agreed to do that, and the provisions of the Bill will be applied by Order in Council. I will not say—for I do not wish to put words into the mouths of the Island authorities—that they are enthusiastic about the provisions in the Bill, but I do say that they have accepted them with a good grace. At their wish, we have agreed that we will not take over their airfields but will leave them within the jurisdiction of the Island authorities. What I have said as regards the application of the Bill by Order in Council applies also to the Isle of Man. This is dealt with in Clause 53 of the Bill. The position is that we are in agreement with the authorities in the Channel Islands.
I regret having had to detain your Lordships twice to-day at such great length. I am grateful for the patience
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and the courtesy with which you have listened to these very long dissertations of mine. I feel that the Government have no reason to be dissatisfied with the reception which the Bill has met with from your Lordships to-day. As regards what has been said about examining the possibility of improving the Bill, well, of course, no one will expect any father to admit that his child has any defects whatsoever. We all think our children are perfection. But I do say that the spirit which has been displayed in regard to the presentation of this Bill reflects a genuine wish to examine what improvements may be possible.
On Question, Bill read 2ª and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

HOUSE OF LORDS' OFFICES.
Order of the Day for the consideration of the Seventh Report from the Select Committee read.
1.—TRAVELLING EXPENSES OF PEERS.
The Committee were informed that an additional estimate on the House of Lords vote had been approved for the reimbursement of travelling expenses incurred by members of the House of Lords in their attendance on Parliamentary duties.
2.—REFRESHMENT DEPARTMENT.
The consideration of a Report from the Sub-Committee on the Refreshment Department with reference to proposals for the amalgamation of the catering accommodation of the two Houses was postponed.
3.—REPORTING STAFF.
The Committee sanctioned the appointment of an Assistant Editor of Debates and authorised the payment of salary to Mr. S. C. Ireland on his appointment to this post.
4.—CUSTODIANS.
The Committee sanctioned the appointment and salaries of three firemen engaged for fire prevention duties in the Palace of Westminster.
5.—CEREMONIAL DUTIES.
The Committee sanctioned certain payments for extra duties in connexion with the Victory Celebrations on Saturday, June 8, 1946.
6.—OPENING OF PARLIAMENT.
The Committee recommend that the invitations to peeresses to attend the ceremony at the Opening of Parliament should be limited to seventy, and that these invitations should not be extended to dowager peeresses.
7.—HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS.
The Committee approved proposals for the repair and care of historical documents housed in the Palace of Westminster.
8.—ECCLESIASTICAL COMMITTEE.
The Committee were informed that Sir John Stainton, K.B.E., had been appointed to succeed Mr. Arthur A. Capewell, K.C., as Legal Adviser to the Ecclesiastical Committee from April 18, 1946.
9.—PRESENTATIONS TO THE HOUSE.
The Committee expressed their appreciation of an offer from Lord Rochdale of the trowel with which the foundation stone of "Big Ben" was laid and also of an offer from Mrs. Jones of a watercolour painting for one of the frescoes by D. Maclise in the House of Lords, they recommend the acceptance of both these offers and that a message of thanks should be communicated to the respective donors.
3.48 p.m.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DROGHEDA): My Lords, I beg to move that the Report be now considered.
Moved, That the Report be now considered.—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, I think there is only one point in this Report to which I should perhaps draw your Lordships' attention, and that is the question of invitations to Peeresses to attend the ceremony at the opening of Parliament. For some little time, more Peeresses have wished to attend than could be accommodated. In 1937, 192 Peeresses applied for invitations, and it was then decided that the number of invitations should be limited to 130. There had, therefore, to be a ballot. A considerable number of Peers also attended then, and the result was that many Peers had to stand throughout the ceremony. The Select Committee have considered this question very carefully, and their unanimous recommendation is that on the next occasion of the opening of Parliament invitations to Peeresses should be limited to 70, and that invitations should not be extended to dowager Peeresses. It is not suggested that this should obtain on all future occasions. The recommendation is limited to the
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next occasion only. After that, the matter will no doubt be further considered. I beg to move that this Report be now agreed to.
Moved, That the Report be now agreed to.—(The Earl of Drogheda.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

RAILWAYS (VALUATION FOR RATING) BILL.
Reported without amendment.

GAS LIGHT AND COKE COMPANY BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid on the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

Derby Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Provisional order,

Ipswich Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Provisional Order,

Maidstone Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Provisional Order,

Reading Corporation (Trolley Vehicles) Provisional Order,

also the Certificate that no further Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bills:

Cable and Wireless,

Northern Power,

and also the Certificate that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:
Skegness Pier Provisional Order.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.
House adjourned at ten minutes before four o'clock.