Sitting of 28 February 1946

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

BRITISH MUSEUM (PETITION)
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): I have been asked by the Trustees of the British Museum to present a Petition, which they have annually to submit to this House, explaining the financial position and praying for aid The Petition recites the funded income of the Trustees, and points out that the establishment is, necessarily, attended with an expense far beyond the annual production of the funds, and the Trust cannot, with benefit to the public, be carried out without the aid of Parliament. It concludes with this Prayer:
" Your petitioners therefore humbly pray your Honourable House to grant them such further support towards enabling them to carry on the execution of the Trust reposed in them by Parliament, for the general benefit of learning and useful knowledge, as to your House shall seem meet."
Referred to the Committee of Supply.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EDUCATION

    Emergency Training Scheme
    Mr. George Thomasasked the Minister of Education what is the average time lag between the demobilisation of a serviceman accepted for training under the emergency training scheme and his actual entry into training as a teacher.
    The Minister of Education (Miss Ellen Wilkinson): Figures taken out for one of the recently opened colleges, show that ex-Service students entered the college on the average about four months after demobilisation. Complete figures for all
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    the colleges are not available. We shall open new training colleges as fast as possible; but there will also be a big increase in the number of candidates released from the Forces. The waiting period is, therefore, more likely to increase.
    Mr. Thomas: Is the right hon. Lady aware that these persons have, in some cases, to hang about for nine or 10 months while waiting to go to college, and they have remarkable difficulty in getting fixed up with a job which will keep their families, while they are waiting to go away?
    Miss Wilkinson: I must remind the hon. Gentleman that we tell each candidate that there is likely to be a considerable period before he can enter college, owing to the difficulty of getting the colleges fitted up. I am considering what steps can be taken to utilise this waiting period in connection with the training scheme. I cannot make any fuller statement on the matter at the moment.
    Mr. Tolley: Would the right hon. Lady give reasons for the continued delay?
    Miss Wilkinson: Lack of materials, the difficulty of getting labour, and all the other things which are a result of the war.

    Further Education Scheme
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Minister of Education in how many cases of applications for grants under the Further Education Scheme made by ex-soldier students at the University College of Cardiff was the file mislaid or lost in her Department; and for how long.
    Miss Wilkinson: I have no statistical record of this, but if my hon. Friend knows of particular cases, I shall be glad to investigate them.
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Minister of Education if she is aware that some 60 students who entered Cardiff University College last September under the Further Education Scheme are still awaiting the personal allowances awarded them last year; and if she has any explanation for this delay.
    Miss Wilkinson: My Department has announced awards of personal allowances to 37 students at the University College of Cardiff. I understand that payment has recently been made in 33 of these

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    cases. In the other four cases we are awaiting the certificates of attendance from the College, which are our authority to pay. The delay in assessing awards and making payment has been due to insufficiency of clerical staff to deal with the large volume of work. I am glad to say that the situation is improving.
    Mr. Thomas: Is the Minister aware that there is extreme dissatisfaction over the continued instances of delay, even when Members have been assured, as I have been, that payment has been made, and no such thing has taken place, as I can assure the right hon. Lady; and that these students in the University of Cardiff are now being joined by students of other colleges in Wales where they find the possibility of continuing their training is in jeopardy?
    Miss Wilkinson: I will deal with any particular case that the hon. Gentleman puts before me. I have known some cases of people complaining bitterly that they have not had awards, even when they have forgotten to make application for them. We have had to deal with over 10,000 applications, of which 8,000 have come in since the beginning of the autumn term. Now, with the big rush of Class B releases, it is even more difficult, but we are pressing on as fast as we can.
    Mr. David Williams: Does the right hon. Lady appreciate that many of these students are married, and that their families have received no income of any kind for several weeks; and will she attend to this matter as one of urgency?
    Miss Wilkinson: There is no need to urge me. This is one of the things about which I am very much concerned, and in order to deal with it we have recently considerably increased the staff.
    Mr. Stephen: Can the right hon. Lady consider allocating to the schools those who have been accepted, so that they can put in a certain amount of training, and giving them their allowances while so allocated?
    Miss Wilkinson: That question really relates to the first Question put by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Cardiff Central (Mr. G. Thomas) and I have already explained that we are working out a scheme on that basis. This has nothing to do with these awards

    size of Classes
    Mr. Morleyasked the Minister of Education if she can now state the number of classes with 50 or more on the roll, and the number of classes with between 40 and 50 on the roll in schools under her jurisdiction.
    Miss Wilkinson: 1 am sorry that I cannot at present give the figures. The returns from each school, which had to be foregone during the war, have only just been resumed and the shortage of staff and pressure of work in my Department will make it some time before they can be collated.
    Mr. Lipson: Cannot the right hon. Lady allocate some of these applicants to schools where they can get useful experience, and thus help to relieve the pressure on those teachers who have 50 children in a class?
    Miss Wilkinson: So far as we can, we have used applicants in that way. I would point out that much of the work which has to be done is highly skilled, and that by the time we have trained these people to be of use, the colleges will be ready for them. There is the further point, that there is considerable pressure on building.

    Commercial Subjects (Teachers' Training)
    Squadron-Leader Sir Gifford Foxasked the Minister of Education with regard to the proposed colleges for teachers of commercial subjects, how many would-be teachers have applied; how many have been provisionally accepted; how many are in training; and how many have been trained and are available for service in the schools.
    Miss Wilkinson: Of the applications received under the Emergency Scheme for the Training of Technical Teachers, some 2,000 are from applicants who wish to teach commercial subjects. Of these only.a relatively small proportion possess qualifications of the general level required for teaching in schools and colleges of commerce for which this scheme is intended to prepare. No provisional selections are made under this scheme but candidates are selected as courses become available. One such course is now in operation, with 18 students, at the college for technical teachers which opened at Bolton a few weeks ago. A second college will be

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    opened in London in the autumn and a third college is under consideration. It is not proposed to open separate colleges for teachers of commercial subjects.

    Royal Society of Teachers
    Mr. Skinnardasked the Minister of Education whether she is now prepared to make a statement with respect to the position of the Royal Society of Teachers, in relation to the future of professional registration.
    Miss Wilkinson: I have received a direct communication from the Royal Society of Teachers regarding the future of the Society, which is now under my consideration. I am arranging for a deputation from this body to be received at the Ministry
    Mr. Skinnard: Will the Minister bear in mind that if the status of the teaching profession is to be raised so as to make it attractive to new students, a responsible governing body, such as the Royal Society, is essential?
    Miss Wilkinson: I am arranging for a deputation. I cannot say more.

    Children, Brighton (Theatrical Performances)
    Mr. Morleyasked the Minister of Education upon what grounds her Department over-ruled the decision of the Brighton local education authority, not to permit children of school age to take part in theatrical performances during school hours.
    Miss Wilkinson: I am looking into this matter and will write to my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is it not the case that all classes open with a theatrical performance?

  POST OFFICE (FRIERN BARNET)
  Captain Crowderasked the Assistant Postmaster-General if he will reconsider the question of opening a Crown post office in Friern Barnet, in view of the present inadequate facilities available to the public in that district at the existing sub-offices, and the increased demand for postal facilities which has arisen during the last few years
  The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Burke): There are seven sub-Post Offices in the Friern Barnet area, and a further 10 within about half a mile of its boundary. Few residents are more than half a mile from a post office, and the facilities are similar to those in other outlying London districts. I regret that difficulties in connection with manpower and material would preclude the provision of a Crown post office at the present time, but when these difficulties are eased the claims of Friern Barnet will be reviewed together with those of other areas.
  Captain Crowder: Will the Minister bear in mind that this question of improving facilities was raised as long ago as 1937, and the fact that these sub-post offices are shut on early closing days does create a great deal of inconvenience to a very long suffering public in that area? Will he try to speed matters up?
  Mr. Burke: I am aware that the position was considered before the war, and it will again be considered in relation to the needs of other areas.

  NATIONAL INSURANCE

    Private Pensions Schemes
    Mr. McKieasked the Minister of National Insurance what the position will be under the Insurance Bill of those societies and private companies who have expended large sums of money to assist their employees to secure pensions.
    The Minister of National Insurance (Mr. James Griffiths): Contributions at the standard rates will be payable in respect of employees whether or not they are beneficiaries under private pensions schemes, and pensions of the standard amounts will in due course become payable to them under the national scheme. The parties to private pensions schemes may, however, wish to review their provisions; and Clause 68 (i) (f) of the Bill is designed to facilitate the making of any modification desired by the parties.
    Mr. McKie: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider compensation or reinforcement for these people if it should be found that societies and private companies who have expended these moneys for philanthropic purposes are not fully safeguarded under Clause 68 of the Bill?
    Mr. Griffiths: Everyone comes into our scheme in the appropriate classes, and no one will be exempt under the Bill. If any adjustments have to be made in private schemes it is for the parties to make those adjustments themselves. All we say in Clause 68 is that we will facilitate such adjustment if they are agreed to by the parties.
    Mr. W. J. Brown: In view of the welcome assurance which the Minister has given in regard to private superannuation schemes, would he say whether the same applies to civil servants, teachers, police and other State and local government officers who have schemes of their own in operation?
    Mr. Griffiths: I have made it clear on Second Reading and on other occasions that, as far as we are concerned, everyone comes onto this scheme. It will be for teachers and others who have private schemes and are outside the national scheme and desire to make the adjustments; it is for them to make an adjustment and take the necessary initiative.
    Sir Waldron Smithers: Does the Minister realise that representations are now being made from these persons?

    Nurses (Compensation)
    Mr. Toucheasked the Minister of National Insurance if he will now make a statement as to his consultations with the Ministry of Health and the Department of Health for Scotland, regarding the question of compensation, under the Industrial Injuries Bill, of nurses who contract tuberculosis as a result of contact with infected persons.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: I cannot at present add to what I said on this subject in the course of the Debate on the Third Reading of the National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Bill, on 22nd February, and in my recent letter to the hon. Member.
    Mr. Touche: Is a decision likely to be reached before the Bill is passed?
    Mr. Griffiths: The Bill has had its Third Reading, and I will expedite consideration of this very important matter.

  BORSTAL SYSTEM. (NEW INSTITUTIONS)
  Mr. Toucheasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department where
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  and when it is proposed to establish new Borstal institutions.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): As regards boys, there is now a prospect of obtaining premises which would be suitable for a certain type of prisoner and would enable me by certain consequential changes to set free an establishment which is well suited for use as a Borstal institution. This plan would provide the most expeditious method for bringing to an end the temporary arrangement by which Borstal boys are accommodated at Dartmoor.
  As regards girls, I am glad to say that a country house is being acquired at East Sutton in Kent, which will provide good accommodation and suitable means of training for about60 girls. A second country house which would accommodate about the same number of girls has been selected and negotiations for its purchase are in progress. I hope to make shortly a comprehensive statement on the combined effect of these acquisitions.
  Sir Frank Sanderson: Can the Minister give the House an assurance that Dartmoor will be closed at the earliest possible opportunity?
  Mr. Ede: I have frequently given the House that assurance and 1 have striven very hard to expedite the arrangements that are here mentioned I hope I shall not be pressed to give an exact date because of the difficulties in carrying out the adaptations that are involved at the other places, but I can assure the House that I desire to close Dartmoor for this purpose at the earliest possible moment.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: Is the Minister in a position to tell us how far existing accommodation falls short of exact needs in this respect?
  Mr. Ede: I do not. think I could give a precise answer like that without notice.
  Wing-Commander Hulbert:Will the Home Secretary agree that owing to the action of his right hon. Friend the Minister of Health the only way to get housing accommodation now is to be committed to Borstal?
  Mr. Ede: I should regret it if anyone thought that going to Borstal at present is a comfortable period of life.

  ALIENS

    Distressed Persons (Admission to Great Britain)
    Mr. Piratinasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the number of applications for permits to enter the United Kingdom made under each of the categories announced in November last, received by the appropriate office in Germany or Austria, up to 13th February, 1946; the number of permits granted under each category; the number of persons who have arrived in the United Kingdom under each category up to 13th February; the number of applications refused; and the average time taken between the receipt of the original application and arrival in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Ede: As regards persons in Germany and Austria, I would refer to the reply given on14th February to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Colchester (Captain C. Smith). I am not in a position to give information as to the number of applications made to passport control officers on the Continent. The number of aliens admitted to the United Kingdom up to 13th February who have been identified as having visas granted under the scheme which I announced on 13th November is 250. Classification according to the different categories has not yet been completed.
    Mr. Piratin: Is the Minister aware that there is a further section to the Question which I asked, namely, the number of applications which have been refused? Can he give that information, if not now, at a later convenient date?
    Mr. Ede: These applications are made to the officers who grant the visas on the Continent. I am exceedingly anxious not to impede their work by asking for a number of statistical returns. I will see if, without doing that, I can get some information which will be helpful to my hon. Friend.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the experience he has gained justifies him in widening the scope of the scheme?
    Mr. Ede: Up to the moment we have not had any great number of applications from Germany and Austria, and until I know what the effect of the scheme is in
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    those two countries it would be unwise to contemplate widening it.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Will the Minister take steps to see that no entry is made on the identity papers of the children which will be prejudicial to their future careers?
    Mr. Ede: This scheme applies not only to children, but any entries that are made must be accurate.
    Mr. Piratin: Does the Minister indicate to this House that he is not responsible for the steps taken by the various officers in different countries? Are they not reporting to him so that this House might see that the decision taken in November is being fulfilled?
    Mr. Ede: I did not desire to indicate that I was not responsible or that these officers were not responsible to me. I am anxious to secure that as large a number of qualified people as possible are admitted under the scheme. Calling for statistical returns involves a certain amount of work in offices and that sometimes means the regular flow of the desired persons is impeded.
    Mrs. Ayrton Gouldasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that arrangements can only be made for Germans to join relatives here through a British Consul in Germany, and that no British Consulate has yet been set up in Germany; and what arrangements he proposes to make to allow these aliens to come to this country at an early date, in accordance with the announced policy of the Government.
    Mr. Ede: I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement which I made on this subject on 14th February.
    Mr. Janner: Can my right hon. Friend say when he will be able to expedite the arrangements, so that people can make the necessary applications, because he knows the difficulties being caused to those who want to apply?
    Mr. Ede:- I hope the appointments which have been made will have the required result.

    Children (Adoption)
    Lieut.-Colonel Rees-Williamsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will take the

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    necessary steps to extend the provisions of the Adoption of Children Act, 1926, so as to provide for the adoption by persons of British nationality of foreign children.
    Mr. Ede: The object of the provision in the Act of 1926 excluding any infant who is not a British subject was, I understand, to prevent any conflict between the legal status of the child in this country and his legal status under the law of the foreign country of which he is a national. Whether it is necessary to retain or modify this limitation will be considered whenever there is amending legislation, but I am not in a position to hold out any hope of such legislation in the near future.

    Naturalisation Schemes
    Mrs. Ayrton Gouldasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is now able to make a further statement on the naturalisation of aliens; if he will give any information about the position of aliens who applied for naturalisation before war broke out; and if he will give an assurance that those whose credentials are satisfactory will be naturalised at an early date.
    Mr. Ede: Yes, Sir. Schemes have now been worked out for dealing as rapidly as possible with those who have special claims to naturalisation on the grounds set out in my previous statement. As the statement about these Schemes is necessarily long and detailed, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the Statement:
    Work is already in progress on applications which were submitted before 20th November, 1940, and arrangements have now been made for dealing with claims for priority from foreigners possessing the statutory qualifications who were enlisted in the United Kingdom and are serving or have during the war served in His Majesty's Forces, from foreigners who have served during the war in British merchant ships, and from those who as civilians have claims to priority on the ground ox their contribution to the war effort or to the economic welfare of the country.
    Those who are still serving in His Majesty's Forces will be able to obtain
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    forms and instructions through Service channels, and will submit their applications through their Commanding Officers, who will forward them with their comments through the appropriate Service Department to the Home Office. Those who have been released from His Majesty's Forces will send their applications to a Board comprising representatives of the Service Departments, which my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for War, has agreed to set up for the purpose of assisting these applicants and accelerating the consideration of their claim. This Board will examine the Service records, interview applicants, and forward the applications, with the Board's comments, to the Home Office.
    Foreigners who have served in British merchant ships during the war and possess the statutory qualifications for naturalisation will be able to apply to the Home Office on a special form, which will be made available at Mercantile Marine offices.
    As regards persons who claim priority on the score of civilian service, those who are in business or professional occupations on their own account will make their applications on a special form direct to the Home Office, and the Home Office will obtain any necessary information or advice from any Government Department which has special knowledge of the applicant's work. For those who are in employment, it has been arranged, in order to accelerate the preliminary examination of claims that the applications shall be submitted in the first instance to the Secretaries of the Regional Boards for industry who before sending them to the Home Office, will get information and advice from the Regional representative of the Department or Departments concerned with the industry in which the applicant is or has been employed.
    Forms of application for persons who have been released from His Majesty's Forces and for persons who claim priority on the score of civilian service will be available for purchase from the Stationery Office or through any bookseller after the 18th March. and with these forms there will be detailed instructions as to the procedure the applicant should follow.
    The help which the Service Departments and other Departments have agreed to give will enable the Home Office to deal

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    with the work more rapidly than would otherwise be possible, and the aim will be to avoid as far as is practicable delays in dealing with those who have good claims to early naturalisation; but the number of applications will undoubtedly be very large, and to get through this great volume of work with proper care will inevitably take time If delays are to be avoided it is important that all applicants should study and observe with care the published instructions and should remember that inquiries and reminders sent to the Home Office slow down the official machine.

  CHILD CARE (COMMITTEE)
  Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to receive the report of the committee which has been sitting for nearly a year and which is inquiring into provision for children deprived of normal home life; and if he will ask the committee to expedite their report.
  Mr. Ede:This committee has submitted an interim report on the training in child care of residential workers in homes and institutions for children. This report is now being printed for publication. I understand that the committee hope to complete their inquiry within the next few months, and to report as soon as possible afterwards.
  Sir W. Smithers: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he cannot act on an interim report? What 1 am asking is that the final report should be expedited so that action can be taken.
  Mr. Ede: The interim report deals with a very important matter. I have been in touch with the chairman of the committee, and she assures me that they are approaching the end of taking evidence, and will very soon be on the task of drafting what she hopes will be the final report.
  Sir W. Smithers: Thank you.

  PALACE OF WESTMINSTER (POLICE DUTY)
  Mr. Kingasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the average number of hours per week spent on duty by police constables within the
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  precincts of the Palace of Westminster during the last three weeks.
  Mr. Ede: Fifty-one hours.
  Mr. King: Does my right hon. Friend think that that number of hours is appropriate on a permanent basis, or does he think that recruitment will ultimately ease the position and reduce the number of hours?
  Mr. Ede: I should regret to think that these hours would be permanent, and I can hardly think that the House will want to sit so long as it has been doing on so many occasions recently. I hope that as recruitment improves and trained men become available, it will be possible to reduce the hours of overtime.
  Mr. King: Can my right hon. Friend say when he hopes that recruitment will be sufficiently improved to allow him to do that?
  Mr. Ede: I cannot say now.
  Wing-Commander Hulbert: Does not the Minister agree that Members of this House, and of another place, owe a great debt of gratitude to the police here, who are always ready to help?
  Mr. Gallacher: Would it not be better if the Minister would arrange to pay full overtime rates? Would not that be a better expression of gratitude?
  Mr. Ede: I announced to the House last week an improvement in overtime rates. I quite agree that these gentlemen are always exceedingly courteous and helpful to Members of the House and to visitors.

  CORPORAL PUNISHMENT
  Captain Francis Noel-Bakerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will set up a committee to investigate and report on cases in which flogging is administered.
  Mr. Ede: The whole subject of corporal punishment was considered by a Departmental Committee, which reported in 1938. As at present advised, I see no occasion to set up another committee to investigate this matter.
  Captain Noel-Baker: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is strong feeling in the country that this form of punishment is not an effective deterrent?

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  Further, is he aware that many people recognise that an individual act of brutality cannot be answered by an act of organised brutality on the part of the State? So far as lies within his power, will he limit the administering of flogging?
  Mr. Ede:The earlier part of what my hon. and gallant Friend has said bears out the findings and recommendations of the Departmental Committee. As to the latter part, when such cases are submitted to me I do have regard to the necessary considerations, but I would remind him that even the Criminal Justice Bill of 1938 allowed the continuance of the practice of flogging people who assaulted warders in prison.

  AIR RAID SHELTERS (LOCAL LIABILITY)
  Lieut.-Colonel Rees-Williamsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that until 19th October, 1940, the local authorities' expenditure on the construction of public shelters qualified for a 65 per cent. grant, whereas after that date, as a result of circular No. 262/1940, His Majesty's Government assumed full financial responsibility; and whether he will now put those authorities who took prompt action in the construction of these shelters in the same position as those who did not by reimbursing the former in respect of the 35 per cent. of the cost paid by them.
  Mr. Ede: It was decided shortly after the issue of Circular No. 262/1940 that it could not be given retrospective effect, and this decision was exhaustively reviewed on several occasions during the ensuing 18 months. I regret that I can find no good ground, at this juncture, for departing from the policy determined in 1940.
  Lieut.-Colonel Rees-Williams: Is my right hon.Friend aware that many local authorities still owe the money which was borrowed in that period, and will he now rectify the very unjust position created by the previous Government, which rewarded procrastinating authorities and penalised those who were efficient?
  Mr. Ede: No, Sir, it would be quite impossible to reopen the matter at this stage.
  Lieut.-Colonel Rees-Williams: Why?

  LOCAL AUTHORITY EMPLOYEES (PAYMENT)
  Major Legge-Bourkeasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will revoke the wartime order empowering a number of county councils to make payment to their employees by cheque.
  Mr. Ede: My information is that the manpower and transport difficulties in the way of sending round pay clerks to pay these workers in cash have not yet disappeared, and that it is still necessary to postpone for a time the revocation of this order.
  Major Legge-Bourke: Would the Minister consider representations from county council roadmen, who particularly object to this form of payment, and who are reluctant to return to the roads on demobilisation?
  Mr. Ede: I am willing to consider any representations. I hope that with the demobilisation of the necessary clerical staff it may be possible to revoke the order at no distant date.
  Mr. Walker: Does my right hon. Friend realise that payment of wages by cheque to roadmen causes them great hardship because, generally speaking, they live in remote villages, and the only places where they can cash the cheques are in the local grocer's shop or the public house?
  Mr. Ede: 1 am well acquainted with this matter from more than one point of view, and I desire to bring the order to an end as soon as the staff is available.
  Mr. Stubbs: Could not the Post Office be used for this purpose? Is my right hon. Friend aware of the hardship caused to people living in isolated villages, in which it is difficult to cash cheques? Surely he could arrange something through the Post Office.
  Mr. Ede: I know from my own administrative experience that it is possible for a county council to make a private arrangement with the local Post Office, or some other establishment, where cheques can be exchanged. I hope that where there are difficulties, and a county council desires to continue the practice, it will endeavour to make such an arrangement.

  PRISONERS (CLASSIFICATION)
  Mr. Astorasked the Secretary at State for the Home Department in how many cases men imprisoned for ordinary crimes are forced to associate in prison with men convicted of homosexual crimes; and whether he will take immediate steps to alter these conditions.
  Mr. Ede: While there are obvious objections to the association of prisoners convicted of homosexual offences with other prisoners, there are equally strong objections to the special segregation, or special association together, of prisoners convicted of such offences. The system of classification of prisoners is designed to keep apart, as far as possible, those prisoners who have not previously been convicted of serious crime from those who have been so convicted or who are habitually criminal or of corrupt habits. Persons convicted of homosexual offences, like other offenders, are classified in accordance with this general principle, and account is taken in every case of the age, character and previous history of the prisoner.
  Mr. Astor: Would the Minister institute an inquiry into one or two prisons, if I were to supply him with evidence that there has been a great deal of mixing up of prisoners—old lags with first offenders and prisoners in other categories?
  Mr. Ede: Certainly, Sir. 1 always welcome any representations which any Member may desire to make to me on this point. I am anxious, as soon as staff conditions permit, to improve the classification of prisoners in this country.
  Mr. Astorasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department in how many cases men sent to civilian prisons for strictly military offences are put in with habitual civilian criminals; and whether he will take steps to alleviate these conditions.
  Mr. Ede: The majority of the soldiers who, when sentenced for strictly military offences, are sent to civilian prisons, have no previous convictions of serious crime, and accordingly they are associated with the star class of civilian prisoners. Those who have previous convictions of serious crime are associated with civilian prisoners who have similar records.
  Mr. Astor: Is the Minister aware that a number of soldiers in prison are having to associate with habitual criminals? I can produce evidence of this.
  Mr. Ede: I am willing to consider any evidence which the hon, Member may submit to me. I desire that military prisoners who have not previously been convicted should associate in prison with people who have similar records.

  COURT PROCEEDINGS, GILLING (PUBLIC INQUIRY)
  Mr. Bowlesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the summoning of the court, at which the justices of the Gilling, East division of the North Riding of Yorkshire, heard an application brought by their chairman under the Small Tenements Recovery Act, 1838, at an occasional court house at Darlington on 26th November, 1945, to the subsequent proceedings in connection with the application; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter.
  Mr. Ede: Yes, Sir. 1 have brought this matter to the notice of the Lord Chancellor, who has been in communication with the justices concerned, and it has been decided that there should be a public inquiry into the proceedings in this case. The Lord Chancellor and I have appointed the right hon. Lord Justice Tucker to conduct the inquiry, which I understand will be held at Northallerton on 8th March.
  Mr. Bowles: When the learned Judge makes his report will it be published in a White Paper for the benefit of hon. Members?
  Mr. Ede: This is a matter which is not entirely within my control, but I will consult with my Noble Friend the Lord Chancellor. I think the report will be published.

  PENSIONS AND GRANTS
  Flight-Lieutenant Beswickasked the Minister of Pensions the reasons which justify the refusal of a wife's allowance

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  to a pensioner who marries more than ten years after the granting of his original pension.
  The Minister of Pensions (Mr. Wilfred Paling): The period of ten years dates from the end of the pensioner's war service. For the Government's reasons for introducing the ten years' limit I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given to the hon. Member for Central Cardiff (Mr. G. Thomas) on 31st January.
  Flight-Lieutenant Beswick: Is the Minister aware that later on in life these pensioners particularly appreciate the sympathy and assistance of a wife, and that under the present regulation they are suffering unnecessary hardship? Will be reconsider the matter?
  Mr. Paling: That was in our minds when this matter was being considered but having regard to the general contention advanced for making this concession it was thought that ten years was a reasonable period.
  Mr. H. Hyndasked the Minister of Pensions what are the difficulties preventing the setting up of assessment tribunals as provided for in Section 5 of the Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act, 1943; and whether he will indicate when he will be likely to be in a position to name an appointed day for their operation.
  Mr. Wilfred Paling: The operation of Section 5 of the Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act, 1943, was postponed primarily on account of man-power difficulties. Priority had to be given to the more important entitlement appeals. The position regarding these is improving and I am keeping under constant review the question when it will be practicable to set up assessment tribunals.
  Mr. Hynd: Is the Minister aware that it is three years since Parliament expressed a desire for assessment tribunals to be set up, and cannot he offer any hope of an early date when they will be set up?
  Mr. Paling: I have already said that the most important thing is the question of entitlement. We were in a difficulty about this, but the position is fairly satisfactory at the moment and I hope it will not be long before assessment tribunals are also set up.

  HOUSING

    Wolverhampton
    Captain Bairdasked the Minister of Health, when the houses at 25, 33, 37 and 43 Park Lane, Wolverhampton, at present partly used as offices and partly unoccupied, will be released for housing purposes.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan): These premises will be made available for housing purposes as soon as the firm in occupation can find other accommodation for their business, which I understand they are making every effort to do.
    Captain Baird: Does the right hon. Gentleman know that I have had my information from a responsible trade unionist who stated that these houses could be let for housing purposes without any drawback to the firm's business?
    Mr. Bevan: I must remind the hon. and gallant Member that these premises had been acquired before the issue of the circular which authorises local authorities to take possession, and therefore some other accommodation has to be found for the stores. But I will certainly follow up the matter.

    North-Eastern Housing Association
    Mr. Frederick Willeyasked the Minister of Health whether he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the future of the North-Eastern Housing Association.
    Miss Colmanasked the Minister of Health whether he can now state his policy with regard to the North-Eastern Housing Association.
    Mr. Bevan: I do not think that there is any longer a case for giving special Exchequer subsidy to this Association under the Special Areas (Development and Improvement) Act, 1934, and it will not, therefore, provide any further houses wholly at the cost of the Exchequer as it did before the war. The association will, in common with other associations, continue to manage the houses it has provided; and if any local authority likes to make arrangements with it in accordance with the existing statutory provisions for the provision of additional houses with the aid of the normal Exchequer subsidy,

    2095
    there is no reason why such an authority should not do so. Most of the local authorities in the area, however, are. willing and eager to resume the full exercise of their housing powers

    Wisbech
    Major Legge-Bourkeasked the Minister of Health why the delivery date for aluminium houses for Wisbech has been delayed until at least the end of April despite a previous statement by his Department that delivery would be made in from two or three weeks from 21st January, 1946.
    Mr. Bevan: Iregret that owing to a misunderstanding a wrong delivery date was given.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a letter was written on 21st January both to the Wisbech Borough Council and to myself giving this date, and will he reconsider the matter, in view of the disastrous effect for the labour concerned, of prolonging what he calls the cushion period?
    Mr. Bevan: I will consider that.
    Colonel Thornton-Kemsley: Will the Minister say how many other cases there were in which wrong delivery dates were given?
    Mr. Bevan: The most important and most massive delivery date for these houses was provided by the late Government.

    Empty Houses and Flats (London)
    Mr. Sparksasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that there are still 2,263 unoccupied houses and flats in Kensington, and 1,712 in Paddington, excluding uninhabitable war-damaged properties; and will he give a detailed analysis why they are not occupied and take steps to insist that the local authorities concerned shall requisition them forthwith and let them to families in need of accommodation.
    Mr. Bevan: A detailed analysis why some 4,000 houses in two London boroughs are not occupied would involve an unreasonable amount of labour. In many cases these unoccupied houses are in a state of very poor repair and substantial work needs to be done. Requisi-
    2096
    tioning is proceeding as rapidly as the local authorities are able to carry out the necessary repairs and adaptations.

    Housing Centre Exhibition
    Mr. Chamberlainasked the Minister of Health if he will arrange to display a set of photographs of the Housing Centre exhibition "Old Age in the New World," in the Members' Tea Room for a week from 6th March.
    Mr. Bevan: This exhibition will be on view at the Housing Centre in Suffolk Street from nth to 23rd March, and I do not therefore think that it will be necessary to arrange a reproduction of the exhibition in this House.
    Mr. Hynd: Would not an exhibition with such a title be a gross reflection on most hon. Members of this House?

    Building Materials (Copper)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the fact that copper sheet and strip are as good as lead for such parts as flashings, weatherings and damp-proof courses in building, and are currently only about half the price of lead which unlike copper is in short supply, he will, in the interests of quicker and cheaper building, take appropriate steps for encouraging the adoption of copper in building.
    Mr. Bevan: Yes, Sir. I have already issued one instruction on this subject, of which I am sending my hon. Friend a copy, and further instructions will be issued shortly.
    Mr. Janner: Will the right hon. Gentleman represent to the Minister of Labour the necessity for giving adequate training in working with copper at the appropriate Ministry of Labour training centres?
    Mr. Bevan: I will bring the hon. Gentleman's suggestion to the attention of the Minister of Labour.

  PUBLIC HEALTH

    Medical Officers (Demobilisation)
    Colonel Stoddart-Scottasked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the delay of demobilisation of medical officers from the R.A.F. compared with the R.N. and the Army; and will he take steps to distribute to the R.A.F. a larger number

    2097
    of medical recruits than to the R.N. and Army, in order that demobilisation from the R.A.F. will not remain 10 groups behind the Army.
    Mr. Bevan: Yes, Sir. As regards the second part of the Question I understand that the allocation of doctors to the Royal Air Force was reviewed by the Medical Personnel (Priority) Committee under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for North Islington (Dr. Haden Guest), at a meeting yesterday, and I will consider the matter in the light of any recommendations they may make to me.

    Measles (Death Rate)
    Mr. Kendallasked the Minister of Health what were the death rates from measles and scarlet fever for the years 1924, 1925, 1944 and 1945, and to what extent inoculations have been used to (prevent these diseases.
    Mr. Bevan: As the reply involves a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the Official Report.
    Following is the reply

    Death rates from measles and scarlet Jever, per million living, in 1924, 1925, 1944 and 1945 (England and Wales).

    —

    1924.

    1925

    1944.

    1945-

    Measles

    118

    129

    6

    18

    Scarlet Fever

    20

    22

    3

    3

    The rates for 1944 and 1945 relate to civilians only. The rates for 1945 are provisional. I am advised that no satisfactory method of inoculation against measles or scarlet fever has yet been evolved.

  ARMED FORCES (FINANCIAL CONDITIONS OF SERVICE)
  Sir Ralph Glynasked the Prime Minister if it is his intention to announce the policy in regard to future conditions of service in the R.N., Army and R.A.F. before the full estimates for those services are introduced.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): I assume that the hon. and gallant Member is referring to the financial conditions of service; in that case the answer is "Yes. Sir"

  VICTORY CELEBRATIONS
  Sir R. Glynasked the Prime Minister whether he will reconsider the holding of victory parades throughout the country on the date proposed in view of the economic position and shortage of coal, especially affecting transport, and postpone such celebrations until after final peace negotiations have been completed and more stable conditions obtain.
  The Prime Minister: The considerations to which the hon. and gallant Member refers were given full weight when the matter was under review. I believe that the decision which we reached commends itself to the people as much as it did to my colleagues and myself.

  STANDING COMMITTEES (LAW OFFICERS)
  Sir G. Foxasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the efficiency of the five Standing Committees which have been set up is prejudiced by an insufficient number of Law Officers of the Crown to attend all the meetings of these Committees; and whether he will take steps to remedy this deficiency.
  The Prime Minister: It has never been the practice for a Law Officer to attend all meetings of all Standing Committees. Although the burden of work now imposed upon the Law Officers is substantially heavier than hitherto, I understand that a Law Officer has been present on all occasions where the Minister in charge of the Bill concerned has indicated that their attendance in connection with particular clauses might be of assistance to the Committee. Law Officers have other important public duties in connection with litigation and other matters but they give precedence to Parliamentary work and I hope that Committees will not find it necessary to require their constant attendance.
  Sir G. Fox: Is the Prime Minister aware that on Committee D, which is considering the Acquisition of Land Bill, there have been five occasions when the Minister has been unable to answer a question and we have required the help of a Law Officer?
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is not in Order in referring to what takes place in Standing Committees.
  Sir G Fox: May I ask then what steps could be taken to remedy this so that we can have the help of Law Officers when we require them upstairs?
  Mr. Bowles: Does the Prime Minister know that the hon. and gallant Member for Henley (Sir G. Fox) was not present at all at the Standing Committee this morning?
  The Prime Minister:-I am not aware of what happens in Standing Committees on the same day, but I have for some time been a Member of this House and I frequently attended Committees upstairs where Law Officers were not present. Wherever their presence is desired they will attend.
  Sir G. Fox: I propose to raise the matter on the Adjournment.
  Mr. McKie: On a point of Order. In view of your Ruling that the hon. and gallant Member for Henley (Sir G. Fox) was not in Order in referring to what takes place in Standing Committees, is the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles) entitled to inform the House that the hon. and gallant Member for Henley was not present this morning?
  Mr. Speaker: That must be known because the attendance of Members is always written down and appears on the Order Paper.

  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (ELECTION BROADCASTS)
  Mr. Piratinasked the Prime Minister if he will ensure that in broadcasts on the London CountyCouncil elections, the precedents created at the General Election will be followed, namely, that in addition to time being allotted to the Labour Party and Conservative Party, time will also be allotted to the Communist Party.
  The Prime Minister: The allocation of broadcasting time for this purpose is a matter for the B.B.C. I am informed by the B.B.C. that they would not have considered it suitable to extend facilities to the Communist Party without doing the same for others of the smaller parties, such as the Liberals and the People's Party. They considered that an allocation of two broadcasts, one for each of the two main parties concerned, was as much as their programme could reason-
  2100
  ably carry, since the London County Council elections are of direct concern only to their London listeners.
  Mr. Piratin: Is the Prime Minister aware that when this step was taken in the first place at the General Election last July, arrangements were made for all contesting parties of a reasonable size to be able to broadcast to the nation at large? In this case, is it not a fact that the broadcast is being made for the London region? How, then, does the Prime Minister explain, in the absence of the appropriate Minister, the fact that there was discrimination against the Communist Party?
  The Prime Minister: I have already explained that the Communist Party was put in with the Liberal Party and with this other party of which I had not heard—the People's Party. There was, therefore, no discrimination against the Communist Party as such.
  Lieut.-Colonel Byers:Will the Prime Minister withdraw his remark in which he classed the Communist Party and the Liberal Party together, in view of the fact that the Liberal Party, fighting only half of the constituencies in the General Election, polled nearly 2½million votes?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, but that is not quite relevant to the London County Council elections, in which they are contesting only six.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Macclesfield
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Labour the latest known figures of unemployed males and females in Macclesfield.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): At 14th January, 1946, the latest date for which figures are available, the numbers of unemployed insured persons on the register of Macclesfield employment exchange were 104 males and one female.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Is the Minister aware that the difficulty has been in creasing since that date and will he consider lending his support to the President of the Board of Trade to attract new industries to this town which is almost entirely dependent on its traditional industry of silk?
    Mr. Isaacs: I was not aware of an increase since then. In reply to the second part of the supplementary question, I can give the assurance that I will give every support to the President of the Board of Trade.

    Training
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Minister of Labour how many discharged members of the Forces have been awaiting training for two months or longer; and what steps he is taking to reduce the long wait between acceptance for training and its actual commencement.
    Mr. Isaacs:With regard to the first part of the Question I am obtaining the information and will write the hon. Member when it is available. With regard to the second part of the Question I would refer the hon. Member to my reply on 29th January to the hon. Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson) Since that date five more Centres have been opened which will provide training places for approximately 1,000 more trainees.
    Mr. Lipson: In view of the very great disappointment felt by the men who have been accepted for training but cannot get it, will not that disappointment be increased if the Minister is not at the moment in possession of the numbers concerned? He ought to have that information.
    Mr. Isaacs: I am anxious to get the accurate number. I will send it to the hon. Gentleman if he wishes but, if he cares to put down a Question so that it can appear in Hansard, I shall be glad. The disappointment is appreciated by everybody in this House. We are planning for training centres to take in 34,000 people by the end of the year. The problem, of course, is the old problem of housing and accommodation, but we are having all possible assistance from other Departments in obtaining premises.
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Minister of Labour if the allowance to an ex-Service trainee is payable from the date when he has been accepted for training or from when he commences it and, if the latter, how is he to maintain himself and his dependants during the interval which is frequently of long duration.
    Mr. Isaacs: The training allowance is payable from the date of commencing training. Every effort is made to arrange
    2102
    temporary employment for those awaiting training. An ex-Serviceman, who is unemployed while awaiting a training course, is entitled to unemployment benefit after the end of his period of paid demobilisation leave.
    Mr. Lipson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in practice it is not possible for these men to get temporary employment when the prospective employer knows that at any time they may go off for training? Will he consider approaching the local authorities to see if these men can be allocated to them so that they may be usefully employed?
    Mr. Isaacs: The hon. Gentleman has raised a point which is giving us some anxiety. I would ask employers not to be quite so "choosy," and to take what labour is available, if only for a week or two to get them out of their difficulties, instead of going without labour in the hope of getting someone permanent.
    Mr. Lipson: What about the local authorities? Will the right hon. Gentleman approach them?
    Mr. Isaacs: The same thing applies.

    Laundries
    56. Captain Crowderasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware of the shortage of labour in the laundry industry which is at present only able to provide an inadequate service to the general public; and what steps he is taking to remedy the position.
    Mr. Isaacs: I am aware of the shortage of labour in laundries and I am taking all possible steps to relieve the position. Laundry work is included in the national campaign for recruitment to essential services, nominated employees willing to return to this industry are being released from other work and the release from the Forces of up to 2,000 former laundry workers under Class B has been sanctioned. In addition, the filling of vacancies in London, where the situation is acute, has been given the highest priority.
    Captain Crowder: In order to enable more women to be able to do public work, and to relieve some of the very hard-worked housewives throughout the country—who, I think the Minister will agree, have had a very hard time during the last six years—will he do everything possible to arrange for more staff for these laundries? It is becoming very serious.
    Mr. Isaacs: Yes, Sir. I venture the opinion that this problem arises for all of us, especially with the domestic circumstances in our own homes. We are trying to do what we can. We have brought in another 229 women up to 31st January. We are making efforts to recruit workers from Ireland and South Wales, but there we are coming up against another problem—the problem of available accommodation—but we will press it as hard as we can.

  MILITARY SERVICE

    Fishermen
    Mr. Douglas Marshallasked the Minister of Labour in view of the world food shortage, if he will take immediate steps to stop the call-up of youths employed in the fishing industry.
    Mr. Isaacs: The existing arrangements under which young men employed as fishermen are eligible for deferment of call up to the Forces should adequately safeguard the labour force in the industry.
    Mr. Marshall: Is the Minister aware that there has been anxiety in Cornwall on the question of deferring those engaged in the fishing industry, and will he give particular consideration to the letters which I believe have been forwarded to him?
    Mr. Isaacs: Certainly, Sir. We will give attention to any individual case.

    Apprentices, Plymouth
    58. Mr. Kingasked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to remove the dissatisfaction which exists among apprentices controlled by his Plymouth office over the way in which deferment is granted and withheld.
    Mr. Isaacs: 1 am not aware of any dissatisfaction among apprentices at Plymouth, but I know that apprentices in Falmouth are in some difficulty in attending classes that would enable them to satisfy all the qualifying conditions for deferment on account of apprenticeship. I understand that His Majesty's inspector of education has been in consultation with the local education authority with a view to improving the facilities available in the district.
    Mr. King: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in many cases apprentices who have finished their apprenticeship are
    2104
    not being called up, whereas others in the middle of their apprenticeship are being called up? It is causing very great hardship; can he alleviate it?
    Mr. Isaacs: If the hon. Member will be good enough to send particulars to me, I will have them examined.

  DEMOBILISATION

    Groups 26–29
    Colonel Stoddart-Scottasked the Minister of Labour if age Groups 26 to 29, inclusive, are of the same size, since, they are each requiring approximately one month to release.
    Mr. Isaacs: No, Sir. I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply I gave on 26th February to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Uxbridge (Flight-Lieutenant Beswick), a copy of which I am sending him.

    Release Rate
    Colonel Stoddart-Scottasked the Minister of Labour how many men and women will have been demobilised from the Services in January and February of this year; how many he expects to be demobilised in March and April; is the number of men and women demobilised each week keeping up to the rate promised by the Prime Minister; and will it continue in March and April.
    Mr. Isaacs: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the interim statement on releases and discharges from the Forces from January to June which I made on 14th February, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Mr. T. Macpherson) and to the answer I gave on 26th February to my hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge (Flight-Lieutenant Beswick).
    Colonel Stoddart-Scott: Is the Minister aware that this slowing down of demobilisation is quite contrary to the promise given by the Prime Minister to this House before Christmas?
    Mr. Isaacs: No, Sir. With reference to the slowing down of demobilisation, I would ask the House to bear in mind the statement made in the early autumn of last year that 1,500,000 persons would be brought out by the end of the year— an average of 300,000 a month. In

    2105
    January of this year close upon half a million—considerably more than 450,000—were brought out. That is not a slowing down, and is maintaining the pledge given by the Prime Minister.
    Miss Bacon: Would the Minister consider making available a printed or duplicated statement on this matter, which hon. Members could send in reply to the many letters which they are receiving?
    Mr. Isaacs: Yes, Sir. That shall be done.
    Captain Blackburn: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the proposed slowing up in the average rate of releases in March, April and May is already causing grave discontent in the Services, and will he take steps to explain in detail the reasons for this slowing up?
    Mr. Isaacs: I am afraid that some of it has been due to misrepresentation of the facts.
    Flight-Lieutenant Beswick: Is it not a fact that the trouble is due to the original figure being given as the maximum which it would be possible to move home in view of the transportation bottleneck, and that every explanation given up to the present has laid emphasis upon transport? Now, when transport is available, the men see the rate cut almost by half and it is causing serious discontent.
    Mr. Isaacs:There may be some misunderstanding which I hope to put right in the statement asked for by the hon. Member for North-East Leeds (Miss Bacon). However, with reference to transport, the hon. and gallant Member is absolutely wrong. Transport difficulties were overcome at the end of last year and we have not referred to transport difficulties with regard to this year's discharges.
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Minister of Labour whether he will make a statement giving the reasons for the apparent disparity between the releases from the Navy and from the other Services; and the reasons for the decline in the weekly rate of releases after the end of February.
    Mr. Isaacs: I would refer the hon. Member to the replies I gave on 26th February to my hon. Friends the Members for Uxbridge (Flight-Lieutenant
    2106
    Beswick) and the Drake Division of Ply-mouth (Mr. Medland), copies of which I am sending. him.
    Mr. Warbey: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate the effect on the minds of men and women in the Services who have to listen round a wireless set to news coming from an overseas station of bald announcements of new demobilisation plans which appear to contain discrepancies? Will he consider how the fears of those concerned can be allayed by full, frank and authoritative statements of the reasons for Government decisions?
    Mr. Isaacs: I am afraid the hon. Member did not hear the answer I gave to another hon. Member below the Gang way.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Will the Minister take particular care to ask the Service Departments to inform Service personnel through Service channels of the various statements on the subject of demobilisation in this House as this would obviate a lot of unnecessary correspondence?
    Mr. Isaacs: I think there is a great deal of value in what my hon. and gallant Friend says.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    United Kingdom War Effort (White Papers)
    Sir R. Glynasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when a White Paper will be presented to Parliament indicating the United Kingdom expenditure on the war effort up to the date of the armistice with Japan and bringing up to date the previous document, Cmd. 6623, covering the period 1938 to 1944.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Dalton): As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already stated, a White Paper on the United Kingdom War Effort is now in preparation. A new issue of the White Paper on the National Income (Cmd. 6623) will be published just before the forthcoming Budget.
    Sir R. Glyn: Does the Chancellor realise that the White Paper to which I referred is incomplete unless it gives a complete record of this country in the war effort? It would have a very great effect, particularly in America.
    Mr. Dalton: Yes, Sir, I am very anxious to do that, but there are two complementary White Papers, not one.

    Dollar Securities (Value)
    Captain Blackburnasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the present market value of the U.S. dollar securities, sold by Britain to the U.S.A. between the outbreak of war and the start of Lend-Lease. and the amount by which this value exceeds the purchase price paid for suchsecurities.
    Mr. Dalton: The information at my disposal does not enable me to give a reliable estimate of the present market value of these securities.
    Mr. Ralph Assheton: May I ask whether the Chancellor will look at this matter again, because it seems that it would be very helpful to our relations with America if that figure were available?
    Mr. Dalton: I am not so sure.
    Captain Blackburn: Would it not have a considerable effect on the minds of members of Congress who are making up their minds whether to approve of the loan or not?

    Domestic Workers (Taxation)
    Major Legge-Bourkeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider making it possible to claim back tax on all wages paid for domestic work out of the residue of taxed income.
    Mr. Dalton: No, Sir.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Does not the Chancellor agree that unless wages of domestic workers are made comparable with those of factory workers, people will never go back into domestic service? How does he expect them to be comparable with taxation as it is at present?
    Mr. Dalton: It is not in the national interest to divert workers from factories into domestic work.

    Public Works Loan Board
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Chancel lor of the Exchequer at what rate of interest he is borrowing money to finance the Public Works Loan Board.
    Mr. Dalton: The rate of interest charged to local authorities for loans for any given period is the rate which the
    2108
    Treasury is paying, or would have to pay, for loans from the public for the same period. The Local Loans Fund has sufficient moneys in hand to meet the demands of local authorities without fresh borrowing for the present.

    Dispossessed Traders (Compensation)
    Major Bruceasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the provisions of the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, have resulted in considerable hardship to all those persons carrying on business under a weekly tenancy who were required to relinquish their premises for the defence of the realm, and who received merely an exgratia payment for expenses incurred in moving personal chattels; and whether he is prepared to reopen the cases of small traders on weekly tenancy who have suffered injustice in this regard having been, in some instances, in business at the premises concerned for over 10 years?
    Mr. Dalton: Such loss of business is only one example of many types of loss of income due to war circumstances which lie outside the field of compensation by Government.
    Major Bruce: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I know of a case of a widow who had been in business 22 years and was disturbed from her premises by the Admiralty and awarded£5 compensation?
    Mr. Dalton: That may be.

    War Damage Payments
    Major Bruceasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the provisions of the War Damage Act, awarding the restoration of property to those owners whose houses have been damaged by enemy action, and awarding a value payment at March, 1939, prices to those whose property was totally destroyed, is grossly unfair to the latter, many of whom are small owner-occupiers; and whether he will now consider amending the Act or taking other suitable measures to remedy this inequitable position.
    Mr. Dalton: The range of cases in which cost of works payments can now be made for damaged premises is already very

    2109
    large; I would remind my hon. and gallant Friend, as regards value payments, of Section 11 of the War Damage Act, 1943, which provides for consideration to be given to increase them when they begin generally to be paid.

    Public Companies (Dividends)
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he proposes to limit increases in the rates of dividend distributed by public companies.
    Mr. Dalton: No, Sir, not at present.
    Mr. Davies: Might I ask the Chancellor if he is aware of the tendency on the part of certain companies, for reasons of which he is no doubt aware, to increase their distribution of dividend at the present time, and whether this does not require active consideration?
    Mr. Dalton: In my last Budget speech, I made an appeal that funds should be devoted to postwar development rather than to increasing of dividends. In so far as there is a wide acceptance of that appeal, there is no need for further action, but where there is a wide departure from it, the matter will have to be looked into.

  MERCHANT SERVICE (LIRA EXCHANGE)
  Mr. Lipsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that while the foreign exchange in Italy is 900 lire to the pound for the Forces it is only 400 for merchant seamen; and as this is causing them great hardship will he arrange for the exchange to be 900 also for members of the merchant service.
  Mr. Dalton: Yes, Sir, and I have taken steps to put merchant seamen on the same footing as regards the exchange rate, as members of the Forces.
  Mr. Lipson: May I ask when that came into operation?
  Mr. Dalton: Very recently.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Eden: May I ask the Leader of the House if he will tell us the Business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Yes, Sir. The Business for next week will be as follows:
Monday and Tuesday, 4th and 5th March—A Debate will take place on the White Paper relating to Defence.
Wednesday, 6th March—Second Reading of the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill and the Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Thursday, 7th March—Supply (3rd allotted day); Committee, Consideration of Navy Estimates, 1946– 47, Vote A, Vote on Account and Navy Supplementary Estimate, 1945– 46.
Friday, 8th March—Second Reading of the Straits Settlement (Repeal) Bill (Lords).
During the week we will ask the House to consider an Amendment to the Ministers of the Crown (Transfer of Functions) Bill which is expected to be received from another place.
Mr. Stephen: May I ask the Lord President whether a day will be given for discussion of Scottish housing?
Mr. Morrison: There is a second Bill dealing with Scotland and that will be provided for in due course. Whether it will be a day or not, I cannot be sure.
Sir Henry Morris-Jones: May I ask it the Lord President of the Council anticipates when the National Health Bill will be introduced and whether he can give some time to consider the Measure in view of its very drastic proposals?
Mr. Morrison: The hon. Gentleman has the advantage over me. He has seen the Bill. I have not. I have not seen the Bill yet, although I know something about it. I cannot give a date, but reasonable time will be given between its presentation and the Second Reading.
An Hon. Member: Will it be before Easter?
Mr. Morrison: I do not know.
Mr. W. J. Brown: May I ask when the Government expect to introduce the long overdue Bill to amend the provisions of the Pensions (Increases) Act, 1944, about which we were promised consideration the day before the House rose for the Christmas Recess?
Mr. Morrison: I do no know what the position of that matter is, but if the hon. Member will remind me I can prepare to give a reply next week
Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: On some days notices appear on the Order Paper about Burma and sometimes about India. Will they continue to appear on the Paper?
Mr. Morrison: They will continue to appear on the Paper until they are taken.
Mr. Nicholson: I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his acumen. When will they be taken?
Mr. Morrison: I do not know; that is why I said what I said.

VICTORY STAMPS (COMMEMORATIVE ISSUE)
The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr.Burke): With your permission, Sir, I should like to make a short statement on a proposal of His Majesty's Government that a special commemorative issue of postage stamps shall be made in connection with the forthcoming victory celebrations. Our manufacturing resources and the time available are severely limiting factors. But my Noble Friend intends to issue one, and if time permits, two commemorative stamps of the lower denominations for inland and Imperial letters, and foreign letters, respectively. This will provide for the great majority of inland and overseas letters.
In order to give scope for a worthy design, the stamps will be of double size, that is, the equivalent of two of the current stamp side by side. A number of artists have been invited to submit designs, and they have been asked to emphasise peace and reconstruction in their designs rather than victory in war. My Noble Friend is in consultation with the Council of Industrial Design, and it is his intention also to seek the co-operation of the Royal Fine Arts Commission and the Royal Fine Arts Commission for Scotland, in choosing the final designs for submission to His Majesty.
Captain Crowder: Does the hon. Gentleman intend to reduce them to 1½d.?
Mr. Burke: These new stamps will be the same price as the present corresponding denominations.
Captain Sir Peter Macdonald: Whose head is to be engraved on these stamps?
Mr. Woods: Can my hon. Friend say what number of denominations is to be covered?
Mr. Burke: Certainly one, possibly two.
Captain Crookshank: May I take it no design will be approved unless it bears the King's head, in accordance with the usual practice?
Mr. Burke: Yes, Sir.
Mr. Douglas Marshall: Will there be an air mail stamp?
Mr. Burke: The issue will be confined to two denominations, inland and overseas.

PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP A)
Mr. Dobbie reported from the Committee on Group A of Private Bills, That for the convenience of Members the Committee had adjourned till Tuesday next at Eleven o'Clock.

STANDING ORDERS
Resolution reported from the Select Committee:
" That in the case of the Tees Conservancy Bill, Standing Order 64 ought to be dispensed with;
That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill, provided that Part III be struck out of the Bill,
That the Committee on the Bill do report how far such Order has been complied with.'
Resolution agreed to

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [2ND ALLOTED DAY]
  Resolution [27th February] reported:

  CIVIL ESTIMATES AND ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, 1946 (VOTE ON ACCOUNT).
  " That a sum, not exceeding£865,885,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the charges for the following Civil and Revenue Departments (including Education and Broadcasting, Pensions, Health Insurance, Unemployment Insurance and Assistance, Food and Supply Services, Roads and other grants and Exchequer Contributions to Local Revenues) for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1947."
  [For details of Vote on Account see Official Report, 27th February, 1946; c. 1492-1495]
  Resolution read a Second time.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

  ECONOMIC AFFAIRS (MANPOWER)
  3.22 p.m.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): This important Debate was adjourned last night after a speech by the hon. Member for Edgbaston (Sir P. 'Bennett), with some of which, as he would expect, I did not agree. But I thought it was an excellent contribution to the Debate, with a fine stream of British commonsense running through it. We all enjoyed the hon. Member's contribution very much. He is an old friend of mine, having been in the days of Dunkirk a servant and worker under me at the Ministry of Supply, where he rendered important service to the nation. I much enjoyed listening to his speech, and indeed to the whole Debate, in which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister gave to the House information of the fullest character that was available to him. I think that was welcomed by the House. My right hon. Friend gave the House a good and, I think, fair picture of the economic situation of the country at the present time.
  Of course, we are all addressing, not only the House of Commons, on a matter of this kind—a sort of economic inquest of the nation—but also the country at large. Indeed, I think that the idea of
  2114
  this Debate was a very good one. We have an annual financial Budget, in which we analyse and discuss the public finances of the nation, and to some extent wider issues. I am not at all sure that it would not be a good thing, if we could adjust our Parliamentary time table and save some time somewhere else, to have, in future years, an annual Debate on the industrial and economic state of the nation. It would be of great value, not only as a Parliamentary occasion; it could be of great value to the country as a whole, to the industrialists, business people, trade unions and the general body of the citizens.
  The points made by the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) were partly dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister; others will, no doubt, be dealt with by the President of the Board of Trade, and, in the course of my own observations, I shall make some reference at least to points which he raised. There was one small. point he made which I can dispose of at once; it concerns the Ministry of Aircraft Production. The right hon. Gentleman said—he did not himself allege it—that it had been stated, and that if it could be denied it would do good, that Stirling aircraft,
  " which, to our certain knowledge, have been obsolete for some years, have quite recently been produced, and have been scrapped as soon as they have left the production plant."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1946; Vol. 419; c. 1952.]
  I have made inquiries at the Ministry of Aircraft Production, and they say they do not understand this. They say that no Stirlings of any type have been made for two years. I mention that; I make no complaint about the right hon. Gentleman mentioning it. In fact, he said quite frankly that these were things that had been said. I would only say it would be better if people who say those things outside, and start these stories, made sure. of their facts first, before making allegations which, at this time, tend to spread "alarm and despondency," to use a famous phrase. I would also refer to the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon-Walker), which was a valuable contribution to the Debate. He raised some points in regard to the machinery of economic administration and planning, to which I hope to make, reference in the course of my observa-

  2115
  tions. And there have been admirable speeches from both sides of the House. 1 agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke (Mr. Ellis Smith) that there is a growing realisation throughout the country that we need to be seriously concerned about our economic situation. That indeed is the purpose of this Debate.
  The most important question with which I propose to deal, apart from the more general speech I wish to make, and in which I will seek to give some of the wider economic background of the situation, and the Government's approach to it, was the point that was referred to by a number of hon. Members— the question of a wages policy. Whilst I can make no final statement about this highly complex and difficult subject, I will say something on it. It is the case that a number of hon. Members have urged, and indeed it has been urged outside, in the Press and otherwise, that there should be a national or Government wages policy. Up to now the spokesmen or the writers who have urged that this should be done, have themselves been somewhat cautious in elaborating such a wages policy. I do not complain; I think they are wise to be cautious, because it could start up a good deal of complication and trouble. I shall be cautious, so that I am in no position to complain about them. We need to be clear what this term "wages policy" means. We can mean a policy which ensures that wage earners, as a whole, receive a fair share of the national income. In all this discussion about our economic condition, and particularly when we discuss the matter of more production, it is vitally important not merely that we should—as we do and shall do—appeal to the workpeople to co-operate in getting greater production; it is profoundly important that all of us, whether Labour, Conservative or Liberal, whether employers or trade union leaders, shall state the case upon the basis, and firmly and genuinely accept the basis, that the work people are to have their proper and adequate share of the increased production which is coming along, because that will help the situation.
  It is true that we are incurring liabilities. The National Insurance Bill, which is now before the House, is a costly Measure. It must be paid for somehow* In the end, it must come out
  of pro-
  2116
  duction in one way or another. Somebody on the other side—it may have been the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot—said he was a bit depressed about the liabilities that were being incurred. It is a fair point to make, since liabilities are being incurred, that we should pause by the wayside. and consider from where the wherewithal is to come. That is quite right and perfectly legitimate. However, hon. and right hon. Members opposite must not scold us about this, because both sides were in it during the Coalition. In the Second Reading Debate on the National Insurance Bill there was no Division and there was general support for these proposals. I entirely agree, and we had better all face the fact that, whether it is the well-to-do who are incurring liabilities, whether it is the workers who are demanding more wages, or more social services, that these things can only be got, and can only be handled, on the basis that they have to be produced. They have to be paid for in some way or other. That is true, and I affirm it with all the keenness for which anyone would wish. It is right. We must never imagine that these things come by magic. They come through human toil.
  We on this side have been too long saying that all wealth comes from human labour for us to forget it and believe that Beveridge schemes come from somewhere else. They do not. They have to be carried by toil, by industry. Let us not forget it. On the other hand, there is the memory of the production drive which took place at the end of the last war. It was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) in a speech with some of which I did not agree. Nevertheless, he had a right to draw attention to history. There were posters, telling people "Produce more," and calling for "More, production," and various Labour leaders permitted their pictures to appear on them. I am bound to say from my own knowledge that, two years afterwards, they wished their pictures had never appeared. It is not enough to say '' more production,? If I have any complaint about the recent manifesto of the Federation of British Industries, which had its uses, it was that it urged "let us get on with production and set aside other things." That indeed has been urged by

  2117
  the Opposition speakers. If we are to get the good will and co-operation of the workpeople, and indeed if this Government are going to advocate this policy, I say quite frankly to the House, we shall only advocate it upon the basis of, and as part of a policy of social justice, a policy of achieving more production to carry the standards we have got and hope to get and to carry the social services. But as production increases in the new order of things—this is the new fact that has to toe brought out, affirmed, and seen to—we must, not only for reasons of abstract economy and social justice, but for hard economic reasons, have increased consumption, in due course, following up and accompanying the increased production. If we do not have it, we get to the absurdity of so-called over-production. I want to be quite fair and balanced. On the other hand, if we get more consumption, more taxes, more burdens upon the public purse, more wages, without the production taking care of them, then we shall get not over-production but inflation and a financial smash, a financial crisis from which the working classes will suffer as much as anybody else.
  That is the attitude of economic balance and economic sanity in which His Majesty's present advisers approach this problem. So it is with wages. We say that the workpeople are entitled to a fair share of the national product of the planning machinery which the Government are devising. We hope to help employers and employed for the first time to judge what this fair share should be. That is the first element in all this controversy about wages. Indeed, it is the first element in all Parliamentary Debate on what we can afford in the way of social services and social advance. In the past everybody has been too much in the dark about the facts. Debate has taken place across the Floor of the House. Hon. Members on one side have said, "We cannot afford this. The nation cannot carry it." Somebody on the other side says "We can afford it" or, "What does this cost represent compared with the cost of a Dreadnought?" That does not seem to me to be a particularly relevant argument, if I may say so, even though it has been used on our side. In fact, Parliament has been in the dark as to what we can and what we
  2118
  cannot afford. We say, therefore, "Let us have the facts. Let the facts come out." I am glad to note that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir J. Anderson) appears enthusiastically to agree with me. I only said past Governments have not been enthusiastic in seeing that the facts were available. The Government are going to make a change in that respect. The facts which the Prime Minister gave in this Debate and the publication of the monthly Statistical Digest, which will be followed by other things, are all part of a process of letting the nation know the facts. Then we shall have the joyful sight of hon. Members of the House of Commons having to face the hard and sometimes inconvenient facts, which His Majesty's Ministers have got to face anyway in private. I am all in favour of the process of facing and wrestling with hard and unfortunate facts being shared in common by all Members of Parliament, and not merely by the Members on the Treasury Bench.
  So it is in the field of wages policy. In many trade disputes, there is an argument on a demand by workpeople for an increase, or a demand by employers for a reduction, and one side says, You can afford it, and the other says, We cannot. In too many of these cases the facts are not known. Moreover, when we come to general wages policy, often the wider facts are not known as to within what limits we can adjust wages, without getting into an inflationary spiral, or without causing economic depression. Therefore, our first point as a contribution to wages policy is that, so far as we are concerned, we shall take all practicable steps to let the parties to the argument know the indisputable facts. That, in itself, will be a very important contribution. It may be that as the years pass, we shall be able to say enough to enable it to be established and agreed that arguments about wages are circumscribed within certain elastic considerations, but circumscribed nevertheless by limitations of facts.
  The next question is whether when those limitations are settled the Government are to step in, and say to employers,You must put wages up by so much, or to the trade unions, "You must not demand more than so much, or "You must accept a reduction "? Are we to

  2119
  tell particular trades and industries, or particular employers, what the wages should be? I do not think we are anywhere near that point yet, and I do not know that we had better be near it. I am all for everybody knowing the size of the cake, and letting the discussion be directed to an argument about what is within the cake, but I do not think we are yet heading for the State to take a hand in fixing wages for particular trades or industries, at any rate more than it is pushed or kicked into doing so. If ever we get a complete Socialist State, it will be another matter. Even then, there will be some argument about it. It may not be free from discussion. But we are not there yet, and we are not going to be there for some time. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] I am talking about a complete Socialist State. Anyway, I would say to hon. Members opposite, do not be too comforted, because we are making reasonable speed—I understood it was strongly complained about.
  It is all going according to plan so far. We are not there yet, but we have established in this country, I think, perhaps, with more success than almost any other country in the world, very good machinery for bargaining about wages between employers and employed. It goes ahead with a remarkable degree of good sense—anyway, good temper, and, to a great extent, good sense—and decisions are arrived at amicably, while the Ministry of Labour are ready to take a helpful part now and again. I do not know that we should be wise to take this process of bargaining out of their hands and try meticulously to fix wages, as a matter of State organisation, but we can help to see that the economic facts are known, and that, I think, would be distinctly helpful.
  The Government fully recognise the importance of ensuring that wages settlements—and here the State has an interest—do not upset or thwart the national economic plans, and it is actively considering ways and means of meeting the situation. Indeed, the State published a White Paper during the war on these issues and the economic doctrines behind them. The Government are confident that our purpose can best be achieved without destroying the constitutional method which has been worked out in. industry. The problem will be solved by fuller information,
  2120
  good will and good sense, and it is being tackled in that spirit.
  Coming to the more general considerations involved in this Debate, together with some specific items of information and fact, it is suggested to the House, as a matter upon which there should be general agreement, that 1946 is a year like no other. It is not a year of world war. It is not a year of settled peace, nor of normal production. It is not a year like 1919, at the end of the last war, a year of hasty scramble for short-term selfish ends, to be followed inevitably by a slump. Much has been achieved since fire ceased in this recent conflagration, but months of further adjustment will be needed before the lay-out of national resources can be placed on anything resembling a peace footing. This is because, as we see it, throughout 1946, the run-down of defence manpower and resources will be proceeding as rapidly as is consistent with our obligations to world security, and with orderly administration and fair treatment of those affected.
  On the other hand, throughout the year 1946, men and women from the Services will be taking up posts as free citizens. The labour controls are diminishing. They have not entirely gone, and cannot entirely go yet, but they have diminished by general demand and by general assent. So these vast numbers of workers, who were formerly ordered and directed about, are coming back as free citizens, and that involves new considerations. The benefit of these labour reinforcements to the home front will be felt only by degrees. Service men and women are entitled to, and are mostly taking, leave before starting civilian work. People are changing jobs faster than ever in the nation's history. Every week, over 200,000 men and women are starting their new jobs from scratch or after years of interruption.
  As the hon. Member for Edgbaston brought out so well in his speech last night, factories are having to be retooled, raw materials and component parts assembled, blueprints, contracts and removals arranged. The flow of production is swelling, but the results cannot be felt immediately by consumers, because many thousands of tons of urgently needed goods are, at any moment, moving by rail, road and water, or are being sorted in warehouses or passing through the various processes of wholesale and

  2121
  retail distribution. It is important to recognise that we have a pipeline to fill up before the inflow of resources is matched by the outflow of goods at the other end. The number of men and women who will be working in 1946 on the goods which cannot reach consumers until 1947 is even greater than the number working on materials and preparations for houses, which cannot be finished before 1947.
  It was one of the things that we learned in the course of war production, often to our embarrassment, that, from the moment the process of designing and planning begins, until a tank is available for fighting purposes, is a very long time—18 months, or 12 months, if we were lucky, and we had to be very lucky for that. It is sometimes forgotten that exactly the same thing must obtain in respect of the beginning of peace production. We start from scratch, and the goods will not be in the shops until the whole process of organisation, preparation, manufacturing, retooling, distribution and so on has been gone through. Therefore, it is bound to be the case that the mere return of workpeople to the civilian front, does not produce the goods the week after they have so returned. There is the pipeline, which, at the moment, the new civilian workers are largely engaged in filling, in starting the process, but the results of the process obviously cannot be seen for some little time, except in goods which are very rapidly produced.
  Therefore, 1946 is inevitably a year of continued shortages, although it will also be a year in which a number of tiresome shortages will be brought to an end. It will be a year of laying foundations for the future and of reviving much social and economic activity which has had to be damped down during the war. For this and other reasons, 1946 will also be a year of national labour shortage, and, therefore, of a high level of employment. In the year and a half from the end of the war, until the end of 1946, it is the fact that over 5,000,000 workers will have been gained for home civil and export production. The right hon. Member for Aldershot suggested that today this labour force was still 2,500,000 less than mid-1939. I am glad to be able to assure him that this deficit, which was correct two months ago, has
  2122
  already been reduced by one-third—a sign of the speed at which the workers are swinging back to civil production. Therefore, it is very important that both industrialists and hon. Members should, perhaps, be a little careful about quoting figures that were true—
  Mr. Oliver Lyttelton: The right hon. Gentleman will forgive me for interrupting him, but the figures I quoted were issued by the Ministry of Labour on 19th February, and, if the right hon. Gentleman pursues the policy of telling the nation where we are, he can hardly blame me for quoting these figures.
  Mr. Morrison:I am not blaming the right hon. Gentleman. The Ministry can only issue, at a given time, the figures then available. I am doing my best not to quarrel with the right hon. Gentleman, tempting as it is. I am only saying that we all ought to be on our guard, in this period of rapid movement and rapid change. [Interruption.] I hope I am not offending anybody: I am really trying not to do. We ought all I say to be on our guard against the assumption that figures of two months ago, or, possibly, even a month ago—I am not talking about when they are published, but about the operative date about which the figures were accurate—may not be changed, in a fundamental and revolutionary sense, by the time at which we are actually quoting the figures, because the movement of labour has been so rapid. That is the only point I am making. That is the reason why I am able to assure the right hon. Gentleman that this deficit to which he referred and which was giving him concern—which was correct at the effective date referred to, two months ago—has since that period already been reduced by one-third. That is itself a sign of the speed at which workers are swinging back to civil production.
  With this great reinforcement, with a larger working population and with the increase in productivity already achieved, compared with prewar figures, our national production and employment should be by the end of the year at a greater rate than ever before in history. The consumer cannot, however, expect to enjoy the full benefit at once. Government expenditure will still be much higher in 1946 than before the war, and large sums will have to be ploughed back in 1946 into capital renewals and develop-

  2123
  ments, such as house-building, some factory building, refilling the warehouses and shops and refilling the pipe-line to our overseas markets. To carry out this reconstruction work, and to keep within bounds the national deficit on overseas balance of payments, it will be essential for saving to continue at a high level, and for personal expenditure on consumption not to go on the loose. The short term target for consumers is, naturally, to get back to 1938 levels; the longer term target is to surpass those levels, in both cases ensuring a fairer and less wasteful distribution.
  During the period of continued shortages, the Government's policy will be to continue the wartime policy of fair shares for all. That is why appropriate controls must go on. It will also be to fight inflationary tendencies while energetically expanding supplies in those fields where they are most urgently needed—housing, clothing, food, furniture and recreation services, and others. I would emphasise that in all these fields the amount we can have depends on the amount we make. We are not exporting any houses, nor any furniture, nor any significant quantity of clothing or food. If there is a shortage of these things, therefore, it is because we, in this country, are not yet making enough of them, and because we are not making enough of other things which foreigners want to be able to buy enough of them from abroad. Therefore, it is futile—and a little regrettable and dangerous even— to talk as if someone—my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, or the Minister of Supply, or what not—[Laughter.] Perhaps I should have said "who not." It is futile to talk as if someone were hoarding quantities of goods which, if released, would greatly relieve the lot of the sorely tried housewife. The goods are simply not there, until we have made them, or have made the wherewithal to buy them. Anything that is said otherwise, is beside the point and inaccurate.
  Nevertheless, production is swelling fast enough to show that we are on the right track. Let me mention a few signs of this heartening trend. It is not enough, but still heartening. By last December the output of civil motor vehicles was already up to 17,400 in the month, or well over half of pre-war. At the middle of 1945,
  2124
  passenger motor cars for civilians were coming out at a trickle of 200 a month. In December the industry turned out 6,700. Cars up to eight h.p. were nil eight months ago. In December they reached 2,800. Utility furniture rose during 1945 from one-tenth to one-third of pre-war output Electric household appliances' output was multiplied nine times during 1945, and such useful things as electric irons are, I am advised, widely on sale in the shops. During 1945, vacuum cleaners were stepped up from nil to 17,300 per month. The output of carpets and linoleum was doubled during the year. The House will be pleased to know that the pram output went up by 60 per cent. [An Hon. Member: "What about coal? "] I am trying to give the House the facts. If hon. Members want to make a joke of the whole business, we can all enjoy ourselves, but I hope they will not. The pram output, I say, is up by 60 per cent, and, I may add, is running at well above pre-war levels. I have not the numbers by me, but that is the satisfactory situation in regard to that commodity. Let us hope that enough bonny wee things are also being produced to fill the prams.
  Captain Sir Peter Macdonald: Will the right hon. Gentleman say what the percentages he is quoting are based on? Are they based on the 1938 figures, or what?
  Mr. Morrison: The output of prams was 60 percent. Up at the end of the year compared, broadly speaking, I think, with the middle of the year. There could not have been very much production of prams during the war, I am quite sure, and it is an improvement on the prewar figures. If the House wants the actual figures, my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade can give them at the end of the Debate The actual figures are not really material, but the fact is that production is running at well over the prewar level. I am only making the point that that is an encouraging situation. Nobody would suggest that we have yet gone any distance in meeting the vast accumulated demands of the war years, but we are moving, and the signs of progress are encouraging and material. On the other hand, it would be defeatist not to recognise the beginnings of some reward for all the nation's labour over

  2125
  these years. The simple fact is that the way to have plenty, is to make plenty. We have been through the blitz when our motto was, "Britain can take it." We have kept on telling our overseas customers, "Britain can make it." Now let us tell ourselves and the whole world, "Britain is making it." That is a true statement. We are making the things, and before this year ends, we shall have more men and women making goods than at any previous moment in our history.
  Those are the facts and it is really good that the world should know these facts. If any of us, from whatever side of the House, go round like Jeremiahs preaching the doctrine "Britain is down and out," nothing can damage this country more in the eyes of other countries at the present time. But the spirit behind this effort will make all the difference. If we can roll out the munitions of peace, as we rolled out the munitions of war, if we can carry out "Operation Civvy Street" in the spirit in which we tackled D-Day, the next few years will be much easier, both in Britain and elsewhere. But we must look ahead to future production. There is much obsolete plant to be replaced; there is war damage to be made good; there are neglected repairs and maintenance to be done; and these have to come, so to speak, out of capital account. These things also must be carried, and are not a direct contribution to civilian consumption. At the same time, we must not leave out of our reckoning demands for capital investment for new industries and new processes. On these our industrial advance depends, and with it the raising of our national standard of life. In the face of so many other pressing demands, not least for some easement in the everyday life of the people, we shall have to keep investment activity down to a minimum, but that minimum will need to be very high.
  Diversion of manpower from the Forces and from munitions had already added very nearly 2,000,000 workers to civil industry, in the second half of 1945, with another 750,000 on leave before returning to civil jobs. By the end of this year enough manpower will have been released to restore home market industries as a whole to their prewar strength, while manpower in the export industries should be very substantially above the
  2126
  1939 level. This net gain in labour for the civil sector is due essentially to a radical reduction in the 1939 volume of unemployment of 1,250,000—a factor which has to be taken into account— which reduction the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) entirely omitted from his figures yesterday. This is one of the new facts, that up to now we have got full employment. As long as we can maintain full employment and avoid going back to the dreary days of mass unemployment, we can solve our problem of production, but if we go back to the days of mass unemployment, it is perfectly clear that production will suffer.
  The cheerful feature of the moment is that we gain on this transformation by the fact that there is not this great number of workpeople standing idle in various parts of the country. Nevertheless, this addition will not be achieved soon enough to raise civil production in 1946 as a whole to the prewar rate, and whilst the numbers of workpeople available may reach a very high point by the end of 1946, we must not get the illusion that that has affected production in the year 1946. It is the overall average of persons employed over the year that determines the production for that year. In any case, when this rise in labour supply—not more than proportionate to the increase in the total population—is related to the huge "back log "of pent-up demand and a minimum rise of 50 per cent. required in export output, the actual dimensions of the overall manpower shortage become apparent. The Government cannot emphasise too strongly that vast long term productive and reconstructive tasks lie ahead, and that the national order book under the Government's policies can be regarded as completely filled for many years. The projects approved or ready to be approved by Government, local and other public authorities and private industry, already far exceed the resources which can be made available to carry them all out for years to come. The bottleneck now is simply how much the nation can produce, and how quickly.
  There should be no fear, therefore, that greater output by all who are able to work will lead to risks of there not being enough jobs to go round. The real

  2127
  danger is the opposite one. The danger is that the habits and practices on both sides of industry, born of long years of unemployment under misguided policies, will deprive the nation of some of the effort which it urgently needs in order to rill the shops, to build homes, and to open up enjoyable leisure for the vastly greater numbers who can now afford it. The Government will do their part in bringing forward vital projects in an orderly and efficient way, as rapidly as employers and workers can cope with them, no matter how high a rate of output is attained.
  In these conditions, any thoughts which may survive in any quarter, of making the work last longer, or of spreading the available jobs over more workers or, I may add, artificially reducing production to keep the price level up—for all these things have undoubtedly happened in the bad old days of scarcity economics, but the great thing we have to do is to turn our backs on scarcity economics and get right away into the field of expansionist economics—are not only absurd; these practices also involve denying us all goods and services which we urgently need and which we might have. Meanwhile, in order to prevent inflation and to give a reasonable amount of goods, services and leisure to all, the Government will be compelled to require the postponement of a number of capital works—roads, bridges, factories, public buildings and so forth; not all of them, but some of them, a proportion of them—which would, if started too soon, divert resources from even more urgent and more essential projects. Such postponements will, so far as possible, be avoided in development areas, where human and other resources are less strained, but they must be expected, particularly in areas of acute labour shortage.
  If we will it, and if we are prepared to see it through, the work is there, and there should be no failure to provide ample opportunities for the fullest employment of the nation's manpower for many years to come. Indeed, I hope we shall so order our economic affairs that we can say that for all time.
  Nevertheless, this country is a great trading nation, and the possibility of depression abroad, as has been referred to in the Debate, seriously disturbing parts of our own economy, must be recognised. I was glad to note the useful remarks on
  2128
  this subject of my hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick.. We hope the world will be sensible, and that this problem of possible extensive external economic disturbance will not arise. If it does arise, we cannot avoid being affected, but the Government are fully determined to take suitable measures to prevent any large scale import of unemployment into this country. Active consideration is being given to the sort of measures which would most effectively protect domestic activity, without involving restrictions which would damage the economies of other countries. The Government will do all in their power to see that irksome shortages and restrictions on the consumer are removed as quickly as possible.
  The speed with which all that is necessary.can be done, must depend on the energy with which the nation can bend itself to production. We are actively engaged in surveying the resources available, both in this and the coming years, and the demands against those coming resources. The object of these economic investigations and surveys is to ensure, as far as possible, in what must always be to some extent changing and uncertain circumstances, that a proper balance is maintained between the competing claimants, and that the most vital requirements of the community, both in supplying present needs and safeguarding future stability, are given due priority. The Government will not hesitate to intervene with strict and strong controls where they may be called for by sectional attempts to gain advantage at the expense of the community, but such direct controls will not be retained or applied wherever by good will and resourcefulness the necessary general objects can be adequately secured by improvement of incentives, by information and discussion, and by cooperative effort. The House can be assured that in our view the only case for controls is the public interest. Where the public interest requires controls we will impose them. Where the public interest requires that they shall be modified or withdrawn, then we shall modify or withdraw them.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick asked yesterday—and I think it was asked by others—what machinery of Government existed to deal with these economic problems. I am happy to say that the machinery of economic coordina-

  2129
  tion and administration has undoubtedly improved enormously during recent years. I look back to the equipment at our disposal in the Labour Government of 1929 to 1931 and I am bound to say that there was very little adequate economic organisation at all. It was not peculiar to that Government. In fact we were not there long enough to put it right. It already existed; we inherited that situation from previous Governments. During this last war, as right hon. Gentlemen who were Members of the Coalition Government will know, the degree of economic organisation of the State on the economic front was a remarkable development in the machinery of Government, a very very great improvement. Of those who were responsible as Ministers and as Chairmen or members of Cabinet Committees for the development of that machinery in which we all took our part, irrespective of Party, I think it can be said they developed a remarkable and vastly improved machinery of economic organisation, control and inspiration.
  It seemed to this Government when we came into office that if we forgot all the lessons of the great economic organisation which was evolved during the war—which indeed was accepted by all political parties as vital and necessary for the winning of the war—and set it aside in this period of the battle for prosperity and economic organisation in peace, then indeed we should be a very bad Administration. We learnt a lot about this in the war, and those lessons are being applied to peace. I would like to give the House some short indication of the kind of economic organisation we have, a kind of organisation which in no way existed at the time the economic blizzard hit us in 1930 or thereabouts. There is of course the Economic Section of the Cabinet Secretariat, a most valuable part of the machinery of government. It is not executive, it is not an administrative Department and it ought not to be so. However, it is a Department which contributes exceedingly valuable economic knowledge, makes its great contribution to the economic outlook, and is an organisation of the highest value. Side by side with the Economic Section there is the Central Statistical Office, which was rightly referred to in a complimentary way by the right hon. Gentleman the Member
  2130
  for Aldershot yesterday. That also makes its considerable contribution. There is also the Cabinet Secretariat, which makes its contribution to the general organisation. Consequently we have now a mobilised piece of organisation in which certain common service functions are discharged by these central sections or departments of the general machinery of the Government, coordinating, advising, looking ahead, forecasting, putting all its economic, statistical and administrative knowledge at the disposal of the separate Departments of State.
  Therefore, there is the most cordial co operation between these common Service organisations and the Departments of State. Sometimes it is said—I think wrongly—that we need an economic general staff in the sense of a central body of economists and experts who would make the whole plan, get it approved, carry it through, administer it and exe cute it separately from the economic Departments of State. I think that is a mistaken conception. Such an organisation would become almost as big as the Government itself. The Departments of State which contribute to our economic affairs are very considerable in number. They spread over nearly the whole field of Government. It would not work, and there would be friction all round. There fore, the problem was, and is, to bring about co-operation between the Economic Section, the Central Statistical Office, and the Cabinet Secretariat, and the appropriate officers, the experts, from the Departments of State concerned in these economic affairs, and then to build up from the economic Departments of State, together with these common service sections of the Central Government, an efficient economic machine on the official level.
  That was done to a great extent during the war. To a remarkable extent it has been further developed, and I think materially improved, under the present Government. No doubt there is room for further improvement as time goes on. Incidentally as regards the whole administrative organisation of joint thinking, joint planning and so on there is a lot to be learned from the Armed Forces and their organisation during the war. For the sake of the analogy which is sometimes drawn, we have got, so to speak, the economic chiefs of staff in this official organisation

  2131
  which pulls the things together. Correspondingly, there are Ministerial committees above, which of course determine issues of policy, to which the reports of the economic planners go, which determine what shall be done about the reports, which give instructions to the officers on the official level as to what they are to inquire into, and what reports they are to produce. Therefore I would say that on the machinery side there is a great improvement. I think it is pretty well right, but it may not be altogether right, and we shall not hesitate in the least to improve as we go along.
  Mr. Paton:May I interrupt the right hon. Gentleman to ask a question? This is a point of very great importance and I would like to be quite clear about what is meant. As I understand it, there are Ministerial committees—not a committee but committees— dealing with the mass of economic information that is flowing to them from the chiefs of staff who were referred to. Is it the Cabinet as a whole that makes the executive decisions at the highest level? That seems to me to be a point of some importance.
  Mr. Morrison: Whatever the facts, the Cabinet as a whole must be responsible for everything that happens.
  Mr. Paton: But what about the decisions?
  Mr. Morrison: I cannot take my hon. Friend too far into the secrets of Cabinet organisation. I am not proposing to do that. I am going so far and no farther. The Cabinet is responsible for the acts of Government, just as Ministers are directly responsible to the House. How the Cabinet does its business, and to what extent it delegates certain things to Cabinet committees is, if I may say. so, the Cabinet's business because it accepts the responsibility. I can only assure my hon. Friend that decisions on policy, according to the nature of the decisions and their importance, the degree of their significance and also the degree to which they may cause trouble and controversy in the House or the country, are settled at the appropriate level.
  That is, of course, the responsibility of the Government. These things are settled by one Committee wherever possible, but the number of committees to
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  discharge a series of functions is, of course, a matter of convenience and administration. It is not material to my argument. I am only making the point that, both on the official level and on the Ministerial level, the Government are working in the economic field as a team, organised so that we know what we are doing. We have reached a considerable degree of efficiency in being able to analyse and forecast economic problems and difficulties, and decide upon the policies which should be pursued.
  I can assure the House, therefore, that there need not be undue apprehension on this point. As time goes on, we will improve and be increasingly sure of our economic knowledge and facts. We are, necessarily, in a somewhat experimental stage, but we shall become increasingly sure, and I hope that the flow of economic information will not only expand but will become steadily more reliable as time goes on. As the point had been raised I thought the House ought to know about the general organisation. It is not, of course, the practice for Governments to reveal the membership or chairmanship of Cabinet Committees if they can possibly help it. Indeed, we do not often reveal that they exist, but it was a fair point that the House had the right to be satisfied with the general organisation of Government on the official and Ministerial level, and we thought it proper that the House should be informed about it. I would add that this Debate has justified itself. There will be not only Debates in the House, There will, I hope, be debates outside. Various people are issuing manifestos, and that is quite all right. It is a free country. Let the debate proceed; all I am concerned about is that it shall, if possible, proceed upon the basis of ascertainable facts, and that we shall all make our best endeavours to be as constructive as we can, in the interests of the country and of industry.
  One of the features of the F.B.I. manifesto—and it has been a feature of some of the speeches of hon. Members opposite—is the argument that it would be much better if the Government would go on with its day-to-day work, facing its difficult day-to-day problems, which are not only industrial in the usual sense but include plenty of problems in the field of agriculture, which the House has recently been discussing—and, by the

  2133
  way, agriculture is of course a vital field in which we want more production, as in ordinary non-agricultural industry. "Why do you not get on with your work?" they say, "Face your problems, and do not be diverted by the wayside into socialising certain industries, and engaging in economic controls, beyond the extent to which we think they are necessary." I do not want to stir up any controversial argument about that today. I have made my contribution in the past, and possibly will do so again in the future, but in our judgment we must approach these problems from more than one direction.
  We believe that unless the common service basic industries which we are going to socialise are made efficient—over a period, it cannot be done in five minutes—all industry will suffer, because all industry is affected by those basic common service, or naturally monopolistic, industries. That is bound to be so. The sooner we get on with the job the better. Indeed, the argument advanced by the F.B.I and others, that there is some degree of uncertainty, is one of the reasons for getting on with it, so that the uncertainty shall cease. That, I assure the House, was the main motive behind the statement about nationalisation I made, with the approval of the Prime Minister, during his absence in North America. Having said we are going to do it, we had better do it. In our judgment it must be done; it is necessary in the interests of the country, and we believe also that it will be for the good of industry.
  I do not blame the F.B.I., or hon. Members opposite, for having their own opinions, any more than, I hope, they would blame us for having ours. Broadly, the country has approved its being done. Let the argument proceed, let criticisms take place, but is it any good for the industrialist to argue as we go along, without any purpose? Surely, the first consideration is to see that the socialisation of industry is efficient and successful, that the best possible scheme is worked out, and the next consideration—in fact, it is an equal, if not a prior, consideration—is that we ought all to do our best to see that the vast bulk of industry which remains under private enterprise makes the best contribution it can to our national well-being. If industrialists say that the
  2134
  State is not as helpful to them economically, as it might be, let' them see the Ministers about it, for I am bound to say that, in my experience, industrialists on the whole are often very complimentary about the assistance, courtesy and understanding they receive from Ministers and State Departments. It is when we get into the field of Parliamentary and Press controversy that they are not so ready to admit this.
  It is also said that we are nationalising things we do not need to nationalise and certain fringes of the mining industry which are being taken over by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power, have been mentioned. There is no dark plot about that; there is nothing sinister in it, and why should there be? My right hon Friend took over the collieries—at least, he is in process of doing so—and he finds that the collieries already possess certain ancillarie—brick fields, some farms, various things. What is he to do? Either he stops and argues with the colliery owner; as to what he will take over and what he will not, in which case he will have another two years to go, or else he takes the lot and argues afterwards about what ho wants and what he does not want. There is no plot, there is nothing sinister, and I think it is a pity that such a somewhat irrelevant issue should be raised.
  This Government want to co-operate with industry, and we are ready to cooperate with everybody for industrial prosperity. We very much want to do it. There is no lack of good will on our part, and let there be no lack of good will on industry's part either.
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: It is a funny way of showing it.
  Mr. Morrison:The right hon. Gentleman the former Minister of Agriculture says it is a funny way to show it, but what is he trying to make us do? What he wants the Government to do is to abandon the whole of their important economic policy, upon which the Election was fought and on which the electors pronounced, and he says that if we do not we have a funny way of showing our good will towards industry. It is an unreasonable attitude. I hope it does not mean that he wants to encourage industry not to co-operate with the Government, unless we are willing to capsize the policy upon which we fought and won

  2135
  the Election. That would be a pity, and would not make for good will. We are ready, anxious and willing for the most cordial co-operation with all industry, whether public corporations or private enterprise. The need today is for all of us to do the best we can to advance and increase production, to increase the efficiency of our country economically and industrially, so that as the years pass, employment will remain full and the standard of life of our people will advance, as it ought to advance, from year to year as a result of their industry, enterprise and toil.
  4.30 p.m.
  Mr. Oliver Stanley: The speech to which we have just listened from the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council will have come to Members on this side of the House as a surprise, even if a pleasant one. Since the opening of this Parliament we have had a number of speeches from 'him; it has always been "the mixture as before," half rhetoric for his own side, and half taunts for us, well mixed up and served without ice. And it is a pleasant surprise that we should have listened, instead of to that, to facts and argument, and, even though with much of it we must disagree, a genuine attempt to speak from a statesmanlike rather than a partisan point of view. He will excuse us, perhaps, if we find this conversion so sudden and so startling that we cannot yet regard it as permanent; we may have to look out for backsliding on his part in the future.
  There are two points he made with which I was entirely in agreement. I agree entirely with what he said about the economic general staff. I think, frankly, there is a great deal of nonsense sometimes talked upon that point, and I think the right hon. Gentleman showed that the sort of organisation people have sometimes suggested could not fail to be an organisation which usurped all, or nearly all, of the functions of Government and would, indeed, make impossible the task of normal Ministers of the Crown. I am glad that he said we had much to learn from the organisation and the planning of the Armed Forces during the war. Secondly, I agree with his point about the annual Debate. I do think that a Debate of this kind serves a very useful purpose; and certainly, so far, it has justified itself. I have a suggestion to make
  2136
  later on about one difficulty and one way in which, I think, it is to be overcome if the Debate is subsequently to serve its full purpose. And, by the way, although I shall deal later on with some parts of the right hon. Gentleman's speech with which I disagree, I was most interested in the careful account he gave of the activities and, I think, the success of the Government in assuring that there was correct phasing between production of prams and their effective occupants.
  I want to devote myself more to the speech which was made by the Prime Minister yesterday, a speech of great importance. It fell into two halves: one, the interesting, factual account of the industrial situation, and the other what, I believe, to have been a genuine and sincere exhortation to greater efforts on the part of all, and an appeal to all for greater unity in face of the difficulties in front of us. I am not sure that the account that the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council has given us has not erred, even more than the Prime Minister's did, on the side of optimism. Anyone who listened to some of the difficulties he ruled out would undoubtedly have gone away with the impression that the shops of this country must be absolutely overflowing with goods—
  Mr. H. Morrison: Has the right hon. Gentleman already forgotten what I said? I specifically warned the country and the House against the view that because you have got production moving to a considerable extent, the stuff would be in the shops at once. I referred to the pipeline argument.
  Mr. Stanley: I quite agree that when you are dealing with the workers brought into industry there must be a considerable time lag, before the effect of their production is seen in the shops; but when you are talking about goods produced last December—the figures for the end of the year—it would appear that some of them should have found their way by now into the shops. I confess I thought I did see a slight look of inquiry on the face of the right hon. Lady the Minister of Education sitting next to the right hon. Gentleman when he mentioned the wonderful increase in the production of electric kettles—[HON. MEMBERS: "Irons."]—of electric irons, as if she were going to ask him at the end of the

  2137
  Debate for the right address. To give an optimistic picture of what has occurred is apt to detract from the appeal which was made by the Prime Minister and that has been repeated today by the Lord President of the Council. The Prime Minister in his speech yesterday chided my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) for being too pessimistic, and in that he was sedulously followed this morning by a leading article in what one must now regard as one of the most expensive of the Government's daily organs. [HON. MEMBERS: "Which is that?"] I refer to "The Times."
  Mr. Austin: The '' Daily Express "?
  Mr. Stanley: That is among the cheaper of the Government's critics. As regards the question of pessimism, of course it depends on how you define pessimism. I do not think a pessimist is one who is prepared, frankly and courageously, to set out the difficulties which appear to be facing him in the future. A pessimist is only a man who, having set out those difficulties, despairs of ever overcoming them. We do not despair. We join in the appeal that no one today should give an impression abroad that we have any doubt as to the economic future or the economic recovery of this country. But that does not mean to say that we should not and must not frankly set out and see the real dangers which are looming in front of us. It is particularly necessary when the note upon which you are going to end your Debate—the note upon which the Debate has proceeded hitherto—has been an appeal to all parries and sections to combine in a greater effort and a greater unity for the sake of the nation. It is not much good appealing to the people to dig hard for victory if you start by telling them everything in the garden is lovely.
  No one can deny that there are in front of us very grave possibilities. First, there is the tremendous gap which exists today between physical exports and the imports of this country, at time when our invisible exports have dwindled to an extent which we do not yet know; and that gap exists when there is a greater demand for our goods than there has been in the past and, perhaps, greater than there is ever likely to be again in the future. Secondly,
  2138
  we are faced with a position in which almost half of the very heavy expenditure that we have to bear has to be met by borrowing. Thirdly, there is what no one will deny to be the critical situation in our major industry, both for home consumption and for export, the coal industry. Fourthly, there is the point which has been referred to by Members on all sides of the House, a point admitted by all—the declining rate of productivity at a time when we are basing all our hopes for the future, for the raising of the standard of life in the future, on an increased rate of productivity made possible by the advances in science and engineering during the last rive or six years.
  It is clear that all these factors, unless they can be altered, can produce a catastrophic effect in this country. The appeal by the Prime Minister was to Members on this side to co-operate in avoiding something which must fall with equal force on all, which would be a crisis, not such as we have known in the past, where, perhaps, the fall of one Government might be repaired by its successor, but a crisis which, at the best, would leave permanent marks upon the life of this country, and, at worst, would make all those policies, hopes and dreams of the future futile and impossible of realisation. So the Prime Minister's appeal falls on ears which, on this side of the House, are predisposed to listen. When he talks about the necessity for creating a spirit of unity and joint sacrifice such as we experienced during the war the right hon. Gentleman must realise the two differences which exist today. The first is that referred to yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot, the constant propaganda which, for months past now, has been directed not only against members of political parties who happen to be opposed to hon. Gentlemen opposite, but has extended itself—a much more serious matter—beyond them, to industrialists, employers and capitalists, exactly the kind of people to whom today the Lord President of the Council has been appealing.
  So far as attacks upon Conservative politicians are concerned, in the words of the right hon. Gentleman himself we can "take it." It may be annoying to have our efficiency—after all, we cannot all go to the London School of Economics—and our motives impugned

  2139
  all the time, but we have to read day after day the sort of article that appears under the name of the hon. Member for Dcvonport (Mr. Foot), which I regard as typical of all. [An HON. MEMBER: "Worse."] Ex pede Herculem—which might roughly be translated as, "You can tell Lord South wood by his foot." All that may be annoying, but it is unimportant. The Prime Minister has said that politicians are, or ought to be, thick-skinned. What is damaging and destructive to the effect of the Prime Minister's appeal is the extension of that sort of campaign beyond the realm of party political contest into the whole industrial field, and the inclusion of the employer, the capitalist and the industrialist. As the right hon. Gentleman pointed out today, the vast majority of the workers of this country are working under the system of free enterprise, in industries which are not yet controlled by the State. Even in the improbable event of the passage of legislation, to which I should not be allowed to refer, there would still be 80 per cent. of the workers so employed. How is it possible, on the one hand, to carry out a campaign telling those people, as they have been told in the past, that the chief thing that makes hard work necessary is the inefficiency of the employer, that, in any case, the product of harder work will go into the pockets of the employer, and that any fall in productivity will hit only the employer; and to combine it with an appeal by the Prime Minister, at the same time, that everyone should work harder, when almost everyone is in the employment of exactly those people?
  One thing is certain. Whatever the employer, the industrialist and the capitalist are, whether we take the poor view of them that hon. Gentlemen opposite have or the more charitable view taken by hon. Members on this side, they remain the same throughout the week. They are not different at week-ends from what they are on week-days. You cannot treat them on Wednesday as patriotic citizens to whom you appeal, and then go out to the constituencies on Sunday and treat them as rapacious profiteers who are only there to exploit the workers. The Government can decide which they are, but must stick to their choice. The other difference is that to which the right hon. Gentleman has already referred. He knows that in 1940 a decision was taken by my right
  2140
  hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill). I cannot remember the exact words. The effect of it was that during the war no controversial legislation should be introduced excepting that which could be related to the immediate purpose of winning the war. All of us on both sides of the House had to put some of our ideas into cold storage. The right hon. Gentleman talks about being asked merely to take day-to-day decisions. That is not what people want. If it is necessary to take longer-term decisions in order to meet the crisis which is facing us, or may face us during the next few months, hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House will be prepared to listen. What we ask is that everything that is brought to us should be related to the crisis now existing.
  The Lord President of the Council said that he made his famous statement about the future course of nationalisation in order that he might reassure industry.
  Mr. H. Morrison: They wanted it.
  Mr. Stanley: The right hon. Gentleman will recollect that he was very careful to prevent our having an opportunity of discussing it in order that we might elicit for the same purpose any further information he had to give. Indeed, so unfortunate was that course that, not long afterwards, the right hon. Gentleman had to publish an alteration and an emendation of one of the passages of that statement. We believe that those long-term projects, which have no relevance to the immediate crisis of the next few months, cause uncertainty, and are making various industries which may or may not be included within that circle devote their energies and attentions to matters other than those which ought to 'be claiming all of them, namely, the immediate development of production. How far that is true perhaps the President of the Board of Trade can tell us. For instance, the iron and steel industry published some time ago plans for development which would be equally necessary whether the industry remained in private hands or was taken over by public control. Have the plans been held up by the uncertainty which now exists, and by the fact that the iron and steel industry have had to put a case to the Government for being allowed to

  2141
  retain the ownership of their property, a case that is now being considered?
  Mr. H. Morrison: We did not require the industry to give information to the Government. That was required by the Coalition of which the right hon. Gentleman was a Member.
  Mr. Stanley: I do not think the right hon. Gentleman will deny that the industry has been called upon in the last few weeks or months to enter into discussion with the Government, and that the Government were then to make up their minds whether or not the industry was to be nationalised. I do not know how far that has been a cause of delay in the development which all want. I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that all these matters are bound to make more difficult the task of co-operation and of unity. The remedy lies, of course, in the hands of the Government.
  I want to deal with one or two points on one side of the problem which we have been discussing. This has been a very wide Debate. The right hon. Gentleman called it "the economic inquest of the nation." I will leave it to others to follow the many interesting points that have been raised with regard to actual returns of manpower and their allocation between civil and military uses. I want to deal with a branch of the problem which the Prime Minister acknowledged to be just as important. It is, having got men back into industry, are we certain we are giving them the full opportunity and incentive for maximum work when there?
  The first point relates to the financial situation. The Lord President of the Council said he wanted to let the nation know the facts. I agree that, to the best of his ability, he and other speakers, and also the Monthly Digest, have tried to give us the industrial facts, but we are discussing all these things now without having any financial background. Since the war with Japan ended, we have had no statement of the general financial position and the problems that face us in that field.
  Mr. H. Morrison: The Budget.
  Mr. Stanley: The right hon. Gentleman says we shall have it on the Budget. We asked for it when the interim Budget was
  2142
  introduced, we asked for it again in connection with the National Insurance Bill, and the answer always is that we must wait for the Budget. Crises do not always adapt themselves to the third Tuesday in April. It happens that since the last Budget, a war has come to an end, and I think that it would have been possible, just as a genuine attempt has been made to give us the industrial facts, to have done something to give us the financial facts as well. As the hon. Member for Edgbaston (Sir P. Bennett) pointed out in his admirable speech, to which the right hon. Gentleman paid a well-deserved tribute, these facts are of the utmost importance, and they are of great importance, in particular, on this question of the incentive to industry in all branches. Throughout the income scale, from E.P.T. to P.A.Y.E., one hears the tale that excessive taxation is reducing the incentive to work and making extra production difficult. That is not simply a case that is put forward for the Surtax payer. It is put forward just as urgently and sincerely with regard to P.A.Y.E. for the workers, and it is put forward by workers and employers alike. I read recently a speech by Sir Miles Thomas, of the Nuffield Organisation, urging it as the best means of increasing production in his works. Yet, with all the difficulties and the immense burdens we bear already, all the difficulties even of existing taxation, we go on making legislation which imposes more charges, without being able to relate them to the general financial background of the country. All of us agreed to the Second Reading of the National Insurance Bill, but many of us at the time asked whether we could have given to us the financial background against which we could judge the financial effects. When some mention was made of that, the Prime Minister said that it did not matter, that it was an internal affair, and so could not have any effect upon production, but I believe that particular Bill is the most typical case.
  The Bill involves a very great redistribution of wealth, but it is not a redistribution of wealth on the old lines which have been progressing for the last 20 or 30 years—the redistribution between the rich and the poor. In this case, it is redistribution between those who are engaged in industry, the producers, and the casualties of the country, the aged, the poof, the unemployed, those who for some

  2143
  reason or other have fallen out of work. Everyone can see the very great social advantage of the provision that is being made for the casualties, but one must relate that to the obvious industrial danger of the burdens that are being put upon the producer, because the time will come when, by contribution and taxation, so much will be taken out of a man's potential earnings that the incentive to work will be largely removed.
  I cannot today discuss the alternatives that lie before the Chancellor of the Exchequer—increased borrowing to meet an increased debit, leading obviously straight to inflation; the maintenance, or indeed the increasing, of taxation, with all the reduction of incentive which that has already been shown to have; or the only other alternative, a drastic revision of the nation's expenditure and the commitments which the nation has undertaken. It would be out of Order to discuss those things, but without knowing that background, and without knowing what is the choice of the Government, a Debate of this kind is limited and to some extent unsatisfactory. If a Debate of this sort is to become a permanent feature of Parliamentary life year by year, I think something has to be done to try to relate finance to economics and allow us to have the information on both of them simultaneously.
  The only other point I want to raise concerns the President of the Board of Trade. I hope he will take what I say as I mean it when I say that I am very sorry it has been found necessary to send the right hon. and learned Gentleman to India. I yield to no one in appreciation of the tremendous importance of solving our political difficulties in India, and I fully realise that the connections which the right hon. and learned Gentleman made on his previous visit, and his knowledge of the problem, must be of great value in that solution. Nevertheless, he has a tremendous burden on his shoulders here. In the days of reconversion, he is probably the key Minister of the Government. I am sure he would not say that things are so settled and so safe that he can stand back while things work themselves out; and we have no idea how long the mission is likely to last. I was going to suggest to the Government, in exchange for the right
  2144
  hon. and learned Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, that the Lord President of the Council, with less Departmental responsibility, should go instead. I was going to say that we would gladly see him go and wish him a safe but not rapid return; but after today, I am not so sure I am prepared to make that offer.
  I want to raise with the President of the Board of Trade the question of control, and I do not want now to raise that question in a controversial sense, whether the powers which the Government are taking are more than they need, or whether those powers are being taken for a longer period than is necessary. I want to deal with that quantum of control which is agreed upon by all of us. Hon. Members on all sides agree that, during the transitional period, there has got to be some measure of control. What I want to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman, in all seriousness, is whether it is possible for him to make an examination, not only in his own Department, but also in those Departments whose regulations and orders affect the trade and industry for which he is responsible, to see exactly how the details of those controls are working. I know that a control, an order or a direction of some kind can appear reasonable when it is taken at Ministerial level upon general lines, but it may be quite different when that general decision has been worked out in detail and when it is translated into the actual orders and directions which go down to the individual firm or enterprise. Everyone knows how it works. Civil servants in Departments do not add controls and permits simply for the sake of doing so, but when the Minister has given a general directive as to what his objective is, somebody thinks of some way in which that objective can be avoided, and so a new provision has to go in to deal with that evasion. Somebody else thinks of another loophole, and a new permit is put in to deal with that. Somebody thinks of some inequality which might be caused between individuals, or between different parts of the country, and to guard against that possibility, another control goes in, until at the end, in order to make quite certain that you do not have any of these mistakes or inequalities, you get a system which may be far more elaborate, cumbersome and burdensome than the general purposes of the control require.

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  I had an example of that sort of thing in my own constituency. It was not connected with the right hon. Gentleman's Department. It was the case of a factory owner, who had part of his factory damaged during the war. He wanted certain repairs done to the factory so as to be able to increase his production. He went—I think it was to the Ministry of Works—and told them, and they said that they would certainly agree, but first he must get a certificate from the contractor that he could do the work without getting any more labour from the employment exchange. He got that certificate. He was then told that the certificate would have to be examined by a regional committee to ensure that, in giving the certificate, the contractor had been accurate. He went to the regional committee. He was then told that as the sum involved was over£ 5,000, the decision of the regional committee on the certificate of the builder would have to go to a national committee who again would have to discuss it. Each of those occasions could be justified—the certificate of the builder in order that there should be no transfer of building labour wanted elsewhere; the investigation by the regional committee to make certain that there was no evasion of the Order by the builder and employer.
  The President of the Board of Trade (Sir Stafford Cripps):I do not think that would be the reason. I think that it would be to see that, with the scarcity of building labour, one individual was not getting a preference over something else which was needed much more urgently.
  >Mr. Stanley: I accept it that was the reason. The national committee, of course, had to consider the matter to see that the administration was not more lax in one area than in another. All, individually, may have been justified; but the result was that it took four months for the permit to go through. It is not always easy for ministerial heads of Departments to see exactly how the details, which have to be left to somebody else, work out. I once had a very salutary experience. Having been Secretary of State for War, I found myself, within a few weeks, a junior staff officer, dealing with the War Office, and I can tell you that it looked quite different. I
  2146
  remember that it was not very long before I was saying about my successor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), exactly the sort of thing that preceding majors had been saying about me. It is for that reason that I am asking the President of the Board of Trade whether he thinks that anything can be gained by looking at the result of these Orders as a whole. Each one of them—each permit, each licence, each application, each committee—I am sure could individually be justified. What you have to see is whether the cumulative effect of all does not make the remedy worse than the disease; and whether, if you remove any of them, it would be true that it would leave room for a mistake here, an evasion there, and an inequality somewhere else, and whether all that would not be more than made up for by the greater freedom given and the greater urge and stimulus to trade.
  I close as I began, with a reference to the speech of the Prime Minister. So far as it went, I liked its frankness and courage, but I wish that frankness and courage had gone further. I wish that the right hon. Gentleman had made yesterday the speech which I am sure he will have to come to this House and make within the next two or three months. Hon. Members will recollect a period when the war was described as the "phoney war." It was not that the dangers during that period were any less real or any less imminent; they were only less apparent to the people in general. That, I believe, is the situation today. If the right hon. Gentleman came down with the same appeal that was made to the nation in those dark days, he would, I am sure, get from the whole nation, and certainly from hon. Members on this side of the House, the same spirit that was elicited then.
  5.12 p.m.
  Mr. Edward Porter: I am afraid I do not understand the Opposition in their attempt to be real so far as this discussion is concerned. I have to confess that I am looking at this question from the standpoint of bitter personal experience as a trade union official. I want to be helpful, but my experience leads me to say, very definitely, that I have yet to find a group of employers who are sincere for the welfare of their

  2147
  workpeople. I say that as one who has been unemployed. I have queued up when it was impossible to obtain work. I have tried to help local authorities to find work for the unemployed. We have to admit what was said yesterday by the right hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton). The conditions were such that we had to find work, and when we found it we had to allocate it so that no one worked for longer than 13 weeks. At the expiration of that period, he was discharged, to give some one else a chance of working and getting stamps on his employment card. I candidly confess that many of these jobs lasted longer than they would otherwise have done owing to the fact that there would be no further work when they ended. With that experience, I have to ask myself if this suggested spurt, to try to find work, is going to be for a period of five or 10 years. What is going to happen at the expiration of that period? When I look into the field of amalgamation, I find myself in this unhappy position. Everyone can quote cases of firms amalgamating, and it would be correct to say that some of the staff have been compensated, but so far as the ordinary workers are concerned they have been given their cards and have had to queue up at the labour exchanges. The years of service which they may have rendered to their firms are of no account.
  On the other hand let me point out the effects of amalgamation. The head of the great firm of Boots, speaking in the House of Lords on 27th July, 1944, made this statement regarding amalgamations:
  "My own firm, if it wanted to, during the past 20 years could probably have put all the chemists out of business, but it would not have been right and it would not have helped employment. It is a thing that you just do not do."
  But what is our actual experience of this firm? We have known it to work without the slighest idea of the welfare of other chemists. We have known it to purchase a site as near as possible to some other chemist and put him out of business by unfair competition. We face the position today, which was put by Lord Beaverbrook also in the House of Lords, that four firms in this country in prewar conditions decided the price of meat every day. I have to ask the right hon. Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) how can we get out of working men's heads the ideas which result from a position
  2148
  like this. He was referring to controls, but what are the controls in England today to which he never referred? The worker is in this unfortunate condition; he knows that the control of the cotton trade is in the hands of two firms in this country, J. and P. Coats, Limited, and the English Sewing Cotton Company. When we come to aluminium he knows that only one firm in this country controls aluminium and its price, and that is the British Aluminium Company. Tinware is controlled by one group, the Metal Box Company, and as far as soap and margarine are concerned, the worker knows that these are controlled by the great Lever combine who force the people to pay the price they fix. The worker also knows that his sugar is controlled by one firm, Tate and Lyle Ltd., and when we come to paper for household decoration he knows that the great combine in Lancashire, the Wall Paper Manufacturers, Ltd., control that industry. As regards artificial silk there are only two firms—Courtaulds and British Celanese. What the worker knows and what I would ask the right hon. Member for West Bristol to realise is that in the cotton industry the cotton is picked abroad, brought to this country and sent to Lancashire, but before it is made into shirts and sold to the buyers there are 15 groups who must get a profit out of it. Is the right hon. Gentleman going to tell the workers of this country that that is a state of things which ought to exist.
  Very definitely, there is a huge combine in the electricity industry which was formed just a few months ago. Directors released from their directorships were compensated by sums of£33,000 each, and were found improved financial positions with the new combine. I would also ask the right hon. Gentleman to take a note of this. I have found that the workers in many cases are afraid of inventions. 1 have in front of me a page taken from the weekly journal of the Master Builders' Association called "The Builder," which deals with new inventions for the trade. Anyone can see this new machine working in the London Brick Company's works on the way from Euston to Carlisle. I had better read the statement in this advertisement:
  "Conservation of man power and of fuel. One example is this one man operated excavator which can dig 10 tons at a bite—replacing 530 men. Every time the bucket is filled, one ton of fuel is saved."

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  That machine is operated in two or three of the works belonging to the London Brick Company. Another thing I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman to think about is this—the fixing of piecework prices in various industries I say very definitely there are a few firms who are genuine and who do control the period which is fixed for piecework prices. They will allow a price to run for a period of three months and then they will accept it. But there are others who try to follow the American methods. They bring a piece of work into one of their departments, and offer the worker a sum of money to produce that particular article in a given time. When he has produced it, they go to another operator and say, "We paid 5s. for the production of that article. It has been done in an hour. If you can produce it in less than an hour, there will be 7s. 6d. for you." That method will be followed in that firm until they find out what they consider should be the average time to produce that article. Then we reach that state of affairs in which with similar work it is not a case of piecework rates, but so many articles per hour or per shift, as the case may be, at the hourly rate of wages.
  I now direct the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol to the building industry or the civil engineering industry. In the building industry 63,000 registered builders come under Defence Regulation 56B. I suggest in all seriousness, as one who has worked in the industry, that no one would go into it except out of sheer desperation. Amenities are unknown, as they have never been introduced, and I believe it will be necessary for the Government to compel employers to introduce amenities. One of the practical difficulties we have to face in that industry is that the majority of those 63,000 firms are one-man businesses or at most do not employ above a dozen work people.
  My allegation applies to the few big firms in the country, which go to jobs which might last 18 months to two or three years. Consider a foundry works. A wife is afraid of her husband coming home because she knows that the whole household wall be disturbed by the dust which he brings in on his clothes. No sensible parent today wall attempt to put
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  his son as an apprentice into the moulding industry, and I say that with regret. Just as a miner advises his son never to go into the mines, a moulder will say to his son, "If you want hard and unhealthy work, with plenty of sweat and not much money, be a moulder, but if you have any sense go into a different industry."
  I believe that if the Essential Work Orders were removed, large numbers of men and women would leave the badly paid industries in which they are working, industries which also have very few amenities. In many industries, holidays are given with pay, and we are now extending the one week to two. I would like to quote the case of a Mr. Cunningham who was responsible for starting a holiday camp in the Isle of Man. It was for working men and women, and it was a huge success. It is true that it was rough until a few years ago, but it was cheap. Now, Mr. Cunningham has sold to a company. Before the war, a stay at Douglas Camp cost£2 5s. 6d. a week for the lower grade holiday, and£2 9s. for the better grade holiday. The new company which has taken over say they intend to make, not£34,000 a year, but£80,000 a year, and that they intend to do it by increasing the£2 5s. 6d. holiday to£4 4s. and the£2 9s. holiday to£4 10s. With every move the worker makes to try and improve his conditions, it seems that there is always somebody ready to make sure that things will be so organised that the worker will lose the benefit of his better conditions. That is a little sharp practice. The new company which has taken over Douglas Camp intends to "rook" the working people of this country who want to spend their holidays in the Isle of Man.
  I agree with what has been said about Pay-as-you-earn. There does not seem to be much complaint from men and women about the tax taken for a 47-or 48-hour week, but there is bitter complaint when the tax is deducted from overtime. I believe it would be a step in the right direction if it were possible for the Government to give an assurance that overtime would not be taxed in this way. There are one or two very enlightened employers in the country; you can count them on. two hands. Those employers provide all the required amenities, and do not want any praise for doing it. They do it as a business proposition.

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  When a man enters their works there is a place for him in which to change his clothes, and if he is working where conditions are unpleasant he is provided with a complete outfit, which is afterwards left at the works and washed and repaired at the employer's expense. How many employers could do this, if they showed the slightest interest in the welfare of their employees? One or two firms, because it pays them, have gone to the extent of repairing the clothes they provide for their workers, some have provided free a complete set of overalls twice in 12 months—I am talking about the pre-coupon period—and have offered another set of overalls at the wholesale price.
  I find it difficult to believe that employers will co-operate in our efforts to avoid depressing wages, and to prevent unemployment, in the future. A new Measure is to come into operation in March, whereby employers who employ over 25 people are compelled to engage 2 per cent. disabled workers. I have had experience of industries in which the eyesight of workers has been failing, but where they would do their damnedest to manage without spectacles, because they knew that the moment the employer saw them wearing spectacles, they would be instantly dismissed, ostensibly for some other reason.
  Having gone through all this it is exceedingly difficult for me to persuade myself that the employers would try genuinely to co-operate with us. Everything we have obtained has been forced from them. What grounds have they given us for saying that they would prefer to give a guaranteed wage? Why was it necessary that the Essential Work Order should be introduced, and how many employers— beyond half a dozen or so— have volunteered, without an application from the trade unions, to offer their workers a fortnight's holiday with pay? Nevertheless, I know that there must be some kind of co-operation. I have been the chairman of national joint industrial councils for a number of years and I know that, if the trade unions officials could be made to believe that the employers of this country were genuine, they have sufficient influence with the rank and file to enable us to get through this particular period which looks so black. If we were given that assurance of no more unemployment, no more depres-
  2152
  sion of wages, it would go a long way towards helping us to bring forward the day to which the majority on these benches are looking forward.
  5.32 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Walter Smiles: It gives me particular pleasure to speak now and to congratulate the hon. Gentleman the Member for Warrington (Mr. E. Porter), who, I am happy to say, is an old friend of mine whom I have often heard speak on previous occasions in the Blackburn Town Council and at social functions. The speech he has just delivered was extremely interesting and I, for one, have profited from it because until now I never knew that the meat prices in this country were controlled by only four people. What he said about the holiday camp was also interesting, but I would think that whoever bought that holiday camp would have to pay higher wages to his painters and to the people who work in the camp, and that, as wages go up, every hotel and holiday camp has to raise its prices. I know that all hon. Members will be very glad to hear the hon. Gentleman speak on many more occasions. I look forward to listening to him.
  The speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council was very interesting, and I think he was very clever in the way he put forward everything of which he could speake favourably and avoided the most dangerous subject, which is coal. That, of course, is the advantage the right hon. Gentleman has from his long experience in public life. One point he raised was about the Stirling aircraft. I believe Stirlings were actually produced in Belfast up to the beginning of 1945—the right hon. and learned Gentleman who is now the President of the Board of Trade will have these facts at his fingers ends—and that it was decided that the Stirling was no good as a bomber but would be used as a transport plane. The contract was given, I believe, by the Coalition Government and not by the present Government. The only point I have to raise is that 40 per cent. of the capital of Short and Harland in Belfast is owned by the Government and 60 per cent. by Harland amp; Wolff. There are very few contracts coming their way at the present time and very few aeroplanes in the world for passenger traffic. I would like to hear that a good

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  contract is to be given to Short amp; Harland, who have the men trained and the jigs available to make good passenger aircraft.
  I do not look upon this Debate as really a party matter. We would all like to see the whole country prosper, and it does not matter who gets the credit if some good is done. In any case, I have sufficient confidence in the astuteness of the party opposite to know that, if any good is done, they will take the credit anyway. But some good Tory speeches were made from the opposite Benches. They might easily have been made by an early Victorian father addressing a family of young sons—" Work hard, save your money, be kind to Granny and the cat, and all will go well." I think that after seven years of war there is a sort of sales resistance put up against too many speeches about "We are going to have pie in the sky very soon." People now get too many of these "pep-up" speeches on the radio and they just switch over to something else. I believe that it is just as possible to get indigestion from over eloquence as from over feeding, although it is difficult to do much over feeding at the present moment.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield (Major Poole) also said some things with which I agree. He said he had no use for this austerity, and no more have I. I believe the people have worked hard for seven years and that now we should give them a bit of fun, an incentive to work. I know that in Russia they have different incentives. The man who drives in so many thousand rivets in a week is feted all round Moscow and Leningrad. I do not know whether the trade unions here would agree to such a procedure, but I have heard a good deal of congratulation to Russia from the opposite Benches in my time.
  Why do people work? In the last war they worked out of patriotism. Some work because of vanity, or conscience, or boredom. Most of us work to get some good food inside us, a warm fire, a comfortable home, and a bit of fun at the weekend. This may take a different form, a football match for a man, or to dress up smartly for a woman, but. at any rate hard work and thrift do not automatically ensure these things nowadays.
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  There are lots of employers racking their brains for ways and means to give their workpeople the incentive to work. Nowadays some employees work hard for three, four, or five weeks, and then take a week off at the expense of the Government in the form of the return of their Income Tax. I heard only the other day of an employer who wanted his secretary to work a few hours later in the evening out of zeal for the export drive. The young lady said, "What is the good of my working this evening? I shall only get about is. 6d. or 2s. out of it." Her employer replied, "I want you to stay very badly tonight. I suggest that you work on these letters tonight free, and tomorrow night I will take you out to a theatre, give you a good dinner at a restaurant, and we can dance together."
  The fact that the young lady was attractive was no great handicap. The worst of it was that some friend of his wife saw them and—I will not say "the fat was in the fire," because nobody today gets any fat and very few people have a fire—but at any rate there was considerable trouble, and it just shows the lengths to which people will go now to help the country in its export drive.
  What hon. Members opposite are afraid of is a financial crisis abroad; we may as well face it. I believe there was a time in 1940 when the pound note was worth only 2s.6d. in Portugal. We must have lots Of raw materials from abroad— timber, oil, tobacco, cotton, and one of these days we shall have to import coal. Foreigners who hold huge credit balances of sterling may get tired of this sterling; they may think it is only good to paper their rooms with, and it is up to us in this country to prove that sterling is sterling and that the phrase "as good as a pound note "is still true. The hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon-Walker) was a great advocate yesterday of unbalanced budgets. Indeed, from his speech I made out that the more unbalanced the budgets were, the better for us all. I thought it was a sort of Social Credit speech which, up to date, has not been proved even by Major Douglas in Alberta. I do not agree with that doctrine, that the more you unbalance your budget the more work there will be in this country.:
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) raised the

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  question yesterday of getting some of the markets and exchanges in London for cotton, base metals, etc., going again and I heartily support him, especially in regard to the market for rubber. We used to have sales of rubber every week in this country and it was one of our best exports to the United States of America. Now rubber is a commodity, which, when manufactured, increases about 20 to 30times in value over the raw material. We here, and people abroad, want hot water bottles, tyres— cycle, motor and aeroplane— and there is much good business to be done. We also want golf balls, and I have found out to my cost that the synthetic ball goes about 25 yards less than the natural golf ball we had before the war. I understand that the President of the Board of Trade has made a deal over rubber, and from the figures given by his Ministry I see that 66,000 tons went to the United States, 16,000 tons to Soviet Russia, and only 8,000 tons came here. With regard to price, we have only got from the United States of America is. a lb. for the rubber produced in Malaya and Burma. I believe that if that went on the open market we would get 2s. 6d.or3s.a lb. I know that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade is a generous, big-hearted man in all that he does, but I see no reason why he should be generous and big-hearted with other people's property, especially with the rubber which belongs to the British Empire.
  We hear all sorts of stories about that rubber deal. Nowadays, of course, if they are wise, people believe nothing of what they hear and only half of what they see. I heard two stories about it. One is that the Americans came along and said, '' are going to want a big loan from us and unless you let us have that rubber at is. a pound, there is no loan coming for you." The other story is that when they came along to buy the rubber, they said, "If you do not let us have that natural rubber at a knockdown price, we shall put our synthetic factories into action and break the Malayan plantation rubber industry into bits." I do not believe they would break that Malayan industry so easily, and I believe that if we let the open public sales take place,.it would be better for everybody in this country.
  Yesterday we heard cotton and automatic looms discussed. I remember going over to the United States about 1934 when
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  I had the honour to be the Member for Blackburn. I saw an American factory where the Northropp automatic looms were made in Draperstown, in Rhode Island. The managing director there showed me a lot of old looms. He asked me, "Do you know what those are for?" When I said I did not, he replied, "I am going to break them up." Every time he sold a Northropp automatic loom, he got the old second hand loom and gave a good price for it to the weaving factory, and it was broken up. They told me there then that one white man and six negro boys were running 100 Northropp automatic looms. Naturally, the weavers in Lancashire strongly objected to. such things being introduced into Blackburn; in fact, there it was generally four looms per weaver, often only two looms per weaver, as most money was made on the highest quality cloth.
  With regard to the engineers, who are the aristocracy of labour—as I am quite sure the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) would agree— the last time I saw figures, there were 1,500,000 people engaged on munitions, though the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council has said that those figures have been considerably reduced. I can well remember in 1935, when the Government were beginning to step up the Votes for munitions, I think it was the right hon. Gentleman himself who about that time said, when he was criticising the raising of the Votes for the Navy, the Army and the Air Force, "Who do you want to fight?" We did not want to fight anybody; all we wanted to do was to protect our own skins and to support our Allies. But I might say equally, "Who do we want to fight today?" It cannot be the United States of America for they have always been our friends, and they have a Navy five times as big as ours. I am also quite sure, with the right hon. Gentleman's party in power, it could never be Soviet Russia. So I think that the amount we are spending on munitions and equipment for the Armed Forces should be decreased very quickly.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot mentioned the Excess Profits Tax. He said it was a bad tax. It is also very hard upon our industries because in India, which now produces iron, steel, cottony jute and all sorts of

  2157
  manufactured articles, the Excess Profits Tax has never been more than 66⅔ per cent. during the war against our 1oo per cent. and when any competition starts again, those Indian industries will have had a considerable amount of money for re-equipment which the industries here have never been able to put by.
  I would suggest that we stop some of this munition and war work and. get rid of some of the temporary non-industrial civil servants. Three or four months ago I put down a Question to the Minister of Aircraft Production asking how many non-industrial civil servants there were in his Ministry and his answer was 15,000. I hear from Harrogate that many civil servants are bored to tears and want to get back to civilian employment. In the last three months the number has hardly been reduced by 200.
  I agree that we do not want to run down our industries. We want, like the American Rotarians, to give a good "ballyhoo" and say we have the best industries in the world, the best men running them and the best machinery. But we want to forget now the blood, and sweat and tears. We have all had enough of that. Let us go in for a bit of food, fuel and fun at the weekends.
  5.51 p.m.
  Mr. S. N. Evans: The hon. and gallant Member for Down (Sir W. Smiles) has just said that we cannot afford to run down our industries. We agree with that, but, on the other hand, we cannot afford to overlook deficiencies which impair our competitive force, and which are prevalent in certain of our industries at the moment. Two overriding tasks confront this Parliament. The first is to play our part in bringing about a durable peace. The second is to help bring about that industrial renaissance without which our standard of life cannot be maintained. Both these tasks necessitate the asking of searching, difficult and, sometimes, embarrassing questions. But if our purpose is to be achieved, we cannot shirk the issues.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttehon) was the first yesterday to raise the question of exports. He spoke of how vital they are to our life and I accept what he said 100 per cent. In fact I go further. The extent to which we depend on imports is insuffi-
  2158
  ciently known to our people as a whole. Unlike the United States of America and the Soviet Union, who have oil, copper, cotton, wheat, manganese, timber, all they need to feed and clothe themselves, and furnish their industries, our only basic raw material is coal. In these circumstances, whereas imports to the United States are luxuries, to this country they are the means of life. If we are to sustain our population of 47,000,000, imports will have to be found on a prodigious scale. This brings us up against a very hard fact. Because nations, like individuals, are not prone to giving things away, we have to pay for these imports, and the only way in which we can pay for them is by exports. Here we are up against another hard and inescapable fact. Just as the prudent housewife rightly refuses to pay more than she can help for necessities, so it is with importers. To make our wares attractive in the coming years, we shall need to market goods of first-class quality at competitive prices, and only thus will full employment be assured. The skill and energy of the British people have always found their best expression in fabrication— fabricating raw cotton into sheets and shirts, fabricating steel into ships, automobiles, locomotives," electrical apparatus—all the paraphernalia of a machine civilisation.
  The importance of steel to our economy cannot be over emphasised, but the British steel industry, as at present constituted, gives rise to serious misgivings. A motor car crankshaft costing£I 10s. od. in the United States, costs£3 8s. 5d. here. Steel castings in many instances are double the price. Forgemasters tell me that steel represents more than a third of their costs, and that within the past few months the price of silicon chrome valve steel has increased as follows:¾ by½ inch ground bar in September, 1945, was£per ton and is now£144 a ton, an increase of 24 per cent.;??? by⅜ which was£ 118 is now£ 170, an increase of 44 per cent.;⅜by??? which was£ 128, is now£ 193, an increase of 51 per cent.;5/16 by¼which was£ 138 is now,6247, an increase of 79 per cent. These figures are somewhat alarming. Why substantial increases should occur now the war is over is difficult to analyse, for the reason that during the war there was continuing competition between the Germans and ourselves for Turkish chrome, the important factor inchrome steel. Now that the war is over,

  2159
  and Germany is no longer competing for chrome it might be expected that prices would diminish, but they have increased as I have related to the House The backwardness of the British steel industry and the evil of cartelisation is well exemplified by the history of the New Universal Beam Mill soon, we hope, to be erected on Tee-side.
  Just after the Boer War, an Englishman, Henry Grey, tried to interest the steel industry in his new process. Frustrated in his attempts, he emigrated to the Continent, where he met with a very different reception, and 40 years ago in Luxembourg the first universal beam mill was erected. The Americans, quick in the uptake as always, quickly realised the significance of the new discovery, and today they have five of these mills, the last one built in 1930. Here in Britain—it is never too late to mend— Dorman Long are at present considering the blue prints of a process which was first offered to the steel barons in this country 40 years ago.
  Tremendous economies will be effected by this type of mill, and savings in weight of joists, fuel consumption and fabricating costs will flow from this new Teesside venture of open hearth steel plant, universal beam mill and the up-to-date ore handling lay out, which will have a yearly capacity of 2,000,000 tons. Constructional engineering, bridge building and shipbuilding will gain added competitive force. But the question we have to ask is: Why was not this development started before nationalisation became an issue? Why was not this type of mill installed between the two wars? In the absence of a satisfactory answer to this question, I am bound to say that an industry which has revealed such a lamentable lack of enterprise is quite unfitted to plan its own future. I understand that during the war the Government called for a report on this industry, a report which has never been published, probably for good and sufficient reasons. I would ask the Lord President to consider whether it would not be a good thing if that report were now released.
  Let me turn for a few minutes to a horse of a different colour, a horse which may not be so popular on this side of the House. I was glad indeed to hear the Lord President speak of the Government's willingness to consider a wages policy. I
  2160
  believe that this Government, in collaboration with the great trade unions, which did such magnificent work during the war, will, sooner or later, have to evolve a wages policy. It is manifestly absurd to expect a miner, working in conditions of acute discomfort and considerable hazard, to be satisfied with the same remuneration as a person handing out nylons, when they arrive, under.conditions which are clean, comfortable and free from risk. I believe that there should be a national minimum wage level, and after that incentives for the less attractive industries.
  I have to say this, and I say it with humility. Despite what was said here yesterday, let no one be deceived. In the ultimate, economic salvation depends first and foremost on output per man hour in those industries upon which we depend for export. And when I hear of one, eminent and influential above all others in his calling, talking in terms of increased output per man hour jeopardising future employment, I am bound to say I am both shocked and alarmed. [Hon. Members: "Who was it?"] I would rather leave that, if hon. Members do not mind. If anyone in this country thinks that the national income can be raised without increased output, they are living in a fool's paradise. Holidays with pay, a guaranteed week, subsidised housing, health and educational services, our whole social programme—all will turn on whether we are able to market our goods competitively two or three years hence.
  Part of the job of the Government is to see that every mechanical aid is placed in the hands of the workers in industry, and the job of the workers, whose common origin I share, is to make the best use of those mechanical aids. Given that, the bad old days of unemployment and malnutrition have gone for ever. The problem today is not the equitable distribution of the cake. Always having regard to the need for incentive, and the Russians recognise that, the Government will see a "fair do." What we need today is an increase in the size of the cake, in other words an increase in the national income. Whilst in the period of capitalist expansion it may have been morally right and economically possible to do no more than one could help for as much as one could get, today, with capitalism in decline and Socialism on

  2161
  the march, and with a Socialist Government installed in this country, such a policy is quite indefensible, mortally dangerous and economically suicidal. Let me give one illustration. During this year Sweden will burn between 40 and 50 million cubic metres of wood. She will do that to keep her industries going, because she cannot get coal. The Minister of Health, whom I am pleased to see here, is trying to build houses for us, but he cannot build houses without timber, and we depend very largely on Sweden for timber. Here is the position that confronts us. It does not need a university education to understand it. Sweden wants coal, we want timber; no coal, no timber, no timber, no houses, or, at any rate, fewer houses.
  Finally I would say this: The position in which Britain now finds herself does not permit of policies based on emotion or wishful thinking. What we need is skilled and energetic planning and elbow grease. Let Government and industrialists provide the skilled and energetic planning; let the Government send its best radio personalities to the microphone to explain the position to our people— and the elbow grease will be forthcoming— forthcoming from the same people who have always seen Britain through her hour of tribulation, the common people of the Commonwealth, the best bred mongrels in the world.
  6.10 p.m.
  Sir Ralph Glyn: I am sure the whole House has been interested in the concluding remarks of the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) with which I think there can be no dispute. It is interesting to an old Member like myself to hear how many on all sides of the House are in agreement, as the Lord President said, on what we want to do. I want to touch on two or three aspects that I do not think have been spoken of so far. I remember after the last war the damage that was done by what was known as the Geddes Committee. It should not be taken that, because we have not a Geddes Committee now, we should be oblivious to any waste which is taking place. An. hon. Member opposite last night made an extremely interesting speech in which he drew the attention of hon. Members and the Government to a considerable quantity of raw material which is mouldering in
  2162
  various dumps. I think all of us could add examples of that.
  What this country wants more than anything is to feel that there is efficiency, and that this House is doing its best as he guardian of public expenditure. It s the duty of Parliament to do that, and it is the task that is laid on all of us, respective of party, to see that the taxes raised from the people are properly spent without waste. Nothing depresses a country so much as to see waste when the people themselves lack the things which they require. During the war the Select Committee on National Expenditure, on which Members from all sides served, did its work. I served on that Committee throughout the war and the reports of that Committee are available to hon. Members, although they are reports of proceedings of the last Parliament. For the reason that we have not got a Geddes Committee or a National Expenditure Committee, there is, I think, a great need indeed for some Committee of this House to go into these matters. We cannot afford any waste. We are right on our beam-ends as regards winning through to this time of reconstruction. The point is that if all of us, irrespective of party, are to help, as I imagine we all want to do, the industry of this country to get on its feet again, we have to remember that it is no use discussing in the House of Commons the units engaged in industry as if they were not human beings. It is an extraordinary thing that only one hon. Member—and his was a maiden speech— drew attention to that fact, and one could see how earnest he was. That was the hon. Member for Warrington (Mr. E. Porter). His experience of a long life in industry has made him pessimistic and cynical. I do not believe we have gone through this war without having learned one great lesson, whether we are employers or employed. That. lesson is that we cannot get anywhere if we make unnecessary rows and troubles It is only. by comradeship and human understanding that we can ever get results. We learned that in the Services. Surely we know it in industry? I hope the hon. Member for Warrington will have his doubts concerning the decency of employers removed before this Parliament is over.
  The Lord President said this afternoon that he thought it necessary for all partners in industry to pull together. Cer-

  2163
  tainly—so do I. I do not think we want to have any recriminations. We should try to see the best in people, not the worst. There is one aspect in regard to workers in this country which I would like to mention.' It is something about which we all have to think. The curious thing is that in the industries of this country the weight of representation, as I understand it, on the Trades Union Council, is confined very' largely to the heavy industries. The Prime Minister gave some figures which may change the aspect slightly, but I believe I am right in saying that there are in this country, engaged in productive industry, over 4,000,000 men and women. We want to raise that to a figure of 5,670,000, which was the figure in June, 1939. We have to remember that productive industry is the type which has changed most as a result of modern experience and new industries coming in. In many parts of the country we want to see established some of these newer industries. The other day the President of the Board of Trade— I think he should be congratulated on it—was able to announce that over 7,000,000 square feet of war factory space had been handed over, which is going. mostly to new industries and is to employ 35,000 people.
  If that is going to be done up and down the country in different industries none of these men can be employed unless the basic industries, that is to say power and transport, are able to support them. There is a most desperate situation, which I need not labour, in regard to coal. Hon. Members probably know that railway stocks are down to a little over 7½days' supply. That is the lowest figure we have ever reached. It does not require much imagination to realise what will happen if we have not enough haulage to remove the coal from the collieries to the places where it is required. It is highly dangerous to be cut down to such a very small reserve. Those facts, as the Lord President said today and the Prime Minister said yesterday, can be overcome if there is more publicity in regard to the economic position which we all have to face. I am sure the Government deserve to be congratulated on announcing to Parliament and to the country today the set-up of the committees which are advising the Government, and the fact that publications such as the Statistical Digest, are to be made public. I am cer-
  2164
  tain that in every industry, certainly in the industries on which so many of us depend, if the facts of the case were better known and. fears as to the future were removed, we. should have far better results. It is equally true, as the Prime Minister said, that there is a tendency to condemn a particular industry which is much in the public eye, and the output of which can be more easily measured than that of other industries. Undoubtedly, there are many industries in which we do know that the production is not really up to the standard which has been set. It is a curious fact that in 1898 there were 11,000,000 fewer people in this country than there are now and yet the standard of production per person was higher than it is today. That was achieved with a smaller amount of machinery.
  One of the most welcome things in this Debate, as I am sure the President of the Board of Trade will agree, is that there has been not one speech from any part of the House which did not emphasise the necessity of using up-to-date machinery in the future. In the past there have been laggard employers and workers who believed that production machinery meant unemployment. I believe that to be a complete fallacy in modern conditions. I believe it means better employment and better output, but, while more output may be achieved by methods of mass production, arid I think it might suit us in certain cases, it will be a bad thing for this country it the craft industries suffer, because the individual skill of the British workman and his skill as a craftsman are things which we ought to safeguard in every possible way.
  There is one other point I want to mention. The Prime Minister, yesterday, referred briefly to the international situation. I do not think any of us would be doing our duty if we did not face the facts of the present international situation. I think that situation is fraught with danger, and that the facts ought to be stated. The Prime Minister referred to "external disturbances," and he warned the House that, if there were "external disturbances," it would be difficult for industry to sell goods abroad, and very hard for this country to re-establish its position. I remember very well, in this House in 1918, we were confronted with the danger of certain threats in Turkey,

  2165
  and it meant the maintenance of large forces. I should hate to think that anybody on this side was trying to get any cheap advantage by goading the Government into retaining men with the colours, and I am certainly not one of those. I think it would be equally wrong to condemn the Government for not taking out of munitions production, men whom the Service Departments think it necessary to retain. What would have been said if a Socialist Government had started cutting down, against the advice of those responsible for building up supplies for the Services? I feel very strongly that anything done by a Government of any political Party, must be done, at a time like this, on the advice of the Service chiefs, which I assume has been given.
  We are possibly building castles in the air. I hope not. We have to be ready to face any emergency, and, frankly, I do not like the outlook. I think that, in April, when the snows start melting, people will start moving I know that, in certain European countries, who see, perhaps, more than we do in this island, they are making certain preparations. At a time like this, with great difficulties abroad, when the prestige of this country has emerged from the war so high, I think it is terrifically important that we ought to do all we can, not only to put industry right, but to see that we do not do it at the expense of national defence—or, I should add, at the expense of scientific research. There is so much to be done now. with new weapons and ideas, that we cannot afford to lag behind. I know that it is the intention of the Government to implement the recommendations that have been made and to see that we do not waste any money in the production of obsolescent materials, but to see that our men in the Services are provided with the most up-to-date. weapons and every possible assistance, for what might be in front of them. There is no need for us all to talk in a depressed way. There is enough gloom and depression everywhere already and one does not want to add to it. There is everything to be proud of, and nothing to be afraid of. I think, however, we should face the fact that, while we are a great country, we shall maintain our position only if we are honest with ourselves, if this House speaks quite frankly and if hon. Members speak their minds.
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  That is what we are here for, and, having said these things, it is our duty to go back to our constituents and point out to them the terrific problems with which the Government have to deal at home and abroad.
  Some of us do feel rather sad and sorry, as I certainly do, that this moment has been chosen to stir up, for what we think are political purposes, differences of opinion, but, even so, our country and our position in the world go far above these things. Although I know the workers have had a hard time, and I sympathise with their demand for relaxation, I feel I must draw attention to the fact that we are spending£500 million on gambling—on dogs and football pools and the like. How many trains have we got to run for football matches, with hardly any coal in reserve stocks which ought to be kept for industry? I hope the Government will come down and say, "No special trains for football matches until the stocks are built up." It is not for us to stop other people from having their fun, and I am all for amusement, and I think the workers have every right to get away from the dullness and drabness and hideous depression of their surroundings. Let us deal with all these things, but let us not be afraid of telling the people, "You cannot go to football matches, because there is not enough coal," if that really is the situation.
  I think the situation is one in which we must not be afraid of comments in our constituencies. I think we are facing a tremendous crisis, both at home and abroad, and I hope the House will rise to the occasion and that hon. Members will speak their minds, for there is only one answer to it, and that is by putting party in the second place and the national interest first.
  6.27 p.m.
  Mr. Edelman: The Debate so far has confined itself largely to the question of manpower shortage, but I would like to address myself to the paradox of unemployment, side by side with a shortage of workers. We have, in centres of production like Birmingham and Coventry, large numbers of men who have been declared redundant, but whose condition is liable to develop into one of unemployment and nothing else, if their redundancy becomes chronic. We know that, in places like Coventry, there are

  2167
  today 10,000 workers, most of them engineers, walking the streets and lining up outside the employment exchange waiting in vain for jobs in the engineering industries, waiting to use their skill, of which now, more than ever, we have need. I would suggest that the major reason for the lack of employment of these men is twofold.
  In the first place, there is the present absence of a wages policy in the country; and, in the second place, there is the danger that we have not planned for the allocation of workers according to industrial need. Let me take the second question first. Unless we decide exactly what we are going to manufacture, according to our national plan, we may find that we may immediately reach a high export level. but, in the long run, will be creating difficulties for ourselves. We have a recent example of this in the case of a motor firm which has lately contracted to supply unassembled motor cars for the Argentine, and I understand that they are preparing to export approximately 50,000 of these unassembled cars per annum. This will inevitably mean that men in this country who today are engaged, or are likely to be engaged, in motor assembly work—fitters and bodymakers— are to be deprived of the opportunity of that work. It means that if we export unassembled motor cars to South America—where they will be assembled by workers working at lower rates of pay than the workers in this country—we will be allowing firms in Britain to undercut the standards of their own workmen. The firm to which I refer has a considerable amount of American capital and, consequently, it is very likely that the consideration of providing employment for British workers is not its paramount consideration. But it seems to me that it is a consideration which the government must take into account, If we are to have a flourishing export trade and, above all, if we are to have full employment in our country, we must recognise that the most important thing is to use the skill of our men and to make that skill the most important factor in the cost of the commodity we are producing.
  We have certain basic industries and certain basic resources. Traditionally, we have been exporters of raw materials, but, is my hon. Friend mentioned a few
  2168
  moments ago, the tune may well come when supplies of our raw materials will be so exiguous that we may have need to import materials which at one time we exported. Therefore, our prosperity depends on the amount of work we put into those basic raw materials. I would suggest to the Government with respect that they should consider in their export programme, not merely the short-term question of what we are going to export today or tomorrow in order to make funds readily available, but also what our long term policy is going to be. In our plans for industry, we must emphasise the point that what we should export is the skill of our workers. We cannot tolerate having men declared redundant and remaining redundant in our engineering industry. Clearly, when these men are transferred from the armaments industry, it is necessary that there should be a temporary period of redundancy. But I would like to ask the Lord President of the Council, in connection with the revised figure which he gave of people engaged in the armaments industry, whether those transferred from such industry are now actually in civilian employment, or are walking the streets waiting for jobs. That, I submit, is what the Government should bear in mind when considering the reduced figure of employment in the armaments industry. Are the people allegedly transferred to civilian industry actually engaged in civilian employment and contributing to the prosperity of the country, or are they merely waiting for jobs?
  I turn now to the second matter, that of a wages policy which will enable those people to move from the armaments industry into industries which will be socially useful and to the advantage of the country. The way of directing the stream of workers into a given industry is a twofold one. On the one hand, there is the method of simple direction and compulsion which, I believe, all of us in this House detest. Then there is the other method, that of attracting the flow of workers to an industry by means of a proper wages policy. We have to consider what are the industries and what are the occupations which are important and useful to the country today. Is it, for example, building, coalmining or cotton which should have priority? Although the question of imposing a wages policy on

  2169
  the country is not one to which the Government should address themselves, at the same time I feel that, just as during the war so in peace, the Government should consult with the T.U.C. and the employers in order to consider what should be the wage levels in the various industries according to their degree of priority. They should come to this triangular agreement in order to try and fix wage levels so as to attract workers to those industries. If we did that, I believe we should not have temporary engineers—men who went into the engineering industry during the war and who prefer to remain there because the rates of pay are higher—walking the streets. They would go into other industries required for peacetime reconstruction.
  Here I would like to say a word on the question of productivity. Productivity is not merely a matter of the worker working harder. It is a question of the technique of management, and we must recognise that those two elements must combine together, not merely as a description of the effort which has to go into productivity, but as a description of the men who have to take part in raising productivity. Workers and employers must combine together if productivity is to be raised. I suggest that the joint production committees which during the war had a most valuable psychological effect, even on occasions when they were of no immediate practical value, should be encouraged to remain. In order to do away with the division of the worker, on the one side, and the employer on the other, let them be called simply production committees instead of joint production committees. In that way there will be a new opportunity for workers and employers to combine in peace in order to raise productivity.
  Finally, I would like to say something about the question of incentives. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton), in referring to the Soviet Union yesterday, described some of the material incentives which they give to their workers. I, perhaps, am not a Marxist materialist in the sense of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot and, therefore, I do not wish to limit the incentives to material ones only. I believe, as hon. Members on both sides of the House have very properly pointed
  2170
  out, that if the workers, the technicians, the managers and the employers of this country were brought to the realisation— as so many of them have already been— that this country is really in a critical position from which we can only emerge by all working together in one great national working party, we can overcome our present difficulties and go forward to that era of prosperity in which every person will be able to participate, and in which the benefits will be distributed according to the efforts which we individually put into its creation.
  6.39 p.m.
  Mr. Walter Fletcher: I must apologise in advance for the fact that my remarks will be interrupted by fits of coughing. The Minister of Health, with all the powers we have given him, has not been able to control various germs which have attacked me and, I believe, also himself. The speeches we have heard from the Front Bench yesterday and today nearly all followed the same pattern, a pattern which has been evident on other occasions, particularly when the President of the Board of Trade was speaking on the 1927 Act last week or the week before.
  They followed the pattern of pointing out various iniquities in industry, as represented by the employer on this side of the House, with a brief sentence or two at the end saying, "Let us all work together." I would say to hon. Members: If you want to make the donkey work you have to give him a balanced diet, a kick and a carrot—not ten kicks to every one-third of a desiccated carrot, although that may appear to the President of the Board of Trade to be sufficient for man and beast. I believe the best result that has emerged from this Debate today is that, undoubtedly, the speeches from both sides of the House have shown a greater realisation of the fact that there must be real co-operation. There is a vast distinction between co-operation and coercion. I believe it is vital—and the hon. Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn) pointed it out with great impressiveness—that this must not be by mere word of mouth used across the Floor of the House, but must be something sincere and real used by Members' in their constituencies and in speeches outside this House. If there is a danger and a.suspicion of making political capital out of co-operation instead of making it an economic

  2171
  reality; if we are told one thing here and something else outside, the building up again of the confidence which existed between all parties during the war will inevitably be lost.
  It. took scientists two years of the hardest possible work to split the atom and produce nuclear fission. This Government, possibly inadvertently and, as they may now think, unwisely, have produced economic fission in this country at far too great expense. One of the tasks we have to set ourselves at the moment is to overcome that. The long term planning in which the Government have indulged should, in my view, not be attacked so greatly as it has been. I think industry can well learn a lesson from it and do a great deal of long term planning themselves, but they must be permitted to do so with a certain freedom of action, and with not too great a feeling of permanent restriction and control On this question of long term planning, I would point out the well known dangers which attack, on that subject, mice and men. That applies equally to Marxian mice and mandated men. Long term planning can be too long. I am afraid that one day, on the way out, when I call at the Vote Office, I may find a blue print for the next world, which, it is certain, hon. Members on the benches opposite are particularly fitted to administer.
  Recently we have been engaged in a sort of process of political dry cleaning to remove a stigma. That was very successfully done by marching the troops through the Lobby. But what is much more important at the present moment is to remove an impression, and that cannot be done by that process. It can only be done by the whole country understanding that, under the lead of the Government, in view of the enormous crisis which is attacking us at the present moment, we have all decided, whatever party to which we belong, to try to return along the path towards the total war effort which resulted from really co-operating and trying to minimise our differences, and making more of the facts and policies which we can all accept. At one point during this Debate I felt a certain amount of disappointment. The Debate has taken place almost entirely in a sort of vacuum or enclave of unreality as regards what is going on in the rest of the world economically. I believe the Government
  2172
  have had brought home to them recently how dependent we are on the rest of the world. It is not only a question of increasing exports to other countries. It is; also a question of what other countries are doing. Indeed, the Minister of Food, who will go down in history as the Mother Hubbard of this Government, has had brought home to him how much we are dependent on the rest of the world. One of the things to which we must devote ourselves more closely in the near future is the studying of the economic plans which are being worked out with equal ability and intelligence in other countries. The world of the moment, economically, is a dry sponge capable of absorbing from every country and from almost every source an unlimited quantity of goods of every sort. A manufacturer of hollow-ware or of textiles has the choice in the export field of a dozen markets into which, before the war, he would have had to struggle to get.
  But the period cannot last for ever. The one useful thing which long-term planning can do, together with the greater volume of economic statistics available, as the Lord President of the Council pointed out, is to make certain that some of the great dangers which face us are avoided Japan is a long way away from here and it is difficult to make one's friends in one's own constituency—mine is a purely industrial one—understand how extremely important events in Japan are to this country. Before the war, the economy, the wages structure and standard of living of people in this country and other countries were frequently upset and seriously jeopardised by the action of Japan—a manufacturing country in the second and third phases of development, which was directed partly by Government and partly by industrial dynasties, and which was able to dump goods all over the world and to ruin industries which were properly paid and properly run not only in this country but in other countries. Japan is a country similar to this from one point of view; it cannot support itself on. agriculture and, therefore, has to be a manufacturing country. Nothing is easier for any one of the great Powers who may be in control there predominantly at any time, to use as an auxiliary the whole of the Japanese economy to create the greatest possible difficulties for the rest of the world. The danger at the moment may appear to be a cloud no bigger than

  2173
  a man s hand, out those who have had an opportunity of studying it know that it is a real one. It has been announced that there is a certain amount of production in Japan which may result in the export to other markets in the Middle East and Far East of large numbers of articles which we are at the moment producing here—although, having regard to what we have suffered, we are not so far on with the process of manufacture.
  Unless we are to have some measure of world control—and I foresee the utmost difficulties in it—I can see real danger to the whole of the full employment policy the high wage and the whole superstructure of social improvement which we are trying to build up in this country. It is true that what was announced at the time of Bretton Woods and the other documents which went with it—which, I think, we might call the "Bretton brambles" because we shall undoubtedly become entangled in them shortly—did lay out a general plan for avoiding some of these difficulties, but in the hard and harsh world of realism which we shall enter when we get into competition again, and when the sponge which I have mentioned will be filled up again, I have grave doubts whether these international agreements will work out as we all hope. I believe that the action the Government are taking in appointing Lord Killearn to what is perhaps a nebulous post in the Far East, will have excellent results in one direction because there must be attached to him. as indeed to all embassies and all consulates, a far greater number of well trained, qualified, young, eager, commercial attaches or commercial men than has been the case up to date. Hitherto, the commercial counsellor at the embassy has been the "Cinderella." The Ambassador might inquire every six months about the local price of carpets, or something like that, but on the whole he has not been, as he should have been, somebody with equal status with anybody else. If people had been attached to Lord Killearn's organisation they would not only have been able to keep us fully informed about Government, but about industry throughout the whole of the Far East, and countries, too. It would have been of real value.
  2174
  We must not live in a sort of vacuum and enclave, which we appear to believe is possible. I have been seriously disturbed—and I am certain that is true of hon. Members on both sides of the House—by the number of speakers in this Debate who have really considered that this country can have full employment and a high level of wages quite irrespective of what is going on in the rest of the world. The nearest they get to reality is to say, "We must export." If a third party living in another country has the option of buying an extremely well-manufactured bicycle from a controlled Japan at 50s. and an extremely well-manufactured one produced by brains, partly State enterprise and partly private enterprise, in this country at 55s. there is not the slightest doubt who is going to get the order. It may be a rather long term view, but it is most important that we should not be deceived by the fact that at present the world is a sellers ' paradise, and will remain so for a long while.
  That is equally true of the other important side of our economics and industry, which has hardly been touched on, namely, our invisible exports. We are waiting for the President of the Board of Trade to give us some guidance as to what he is going to do on the question of re-opening markets which are vital to this country. He may have—indeed I believe he has—no great liking for certain aspects, but I think he should consider most seriously the bad effect of taking too short, or too prejudiced, or too doctrinaire a view on that question. Some ports, such as London, Liverpool, Cardiff, Hull, and Newcastle, are not impregnable fortresses. When we get past this era there will be Le Havre, Antwerp, Rotterdam and Amsterdam as great rivals. It is creating difficulties for the future, unemployment difficulties, and is an attack on what we all desire, namely, a full employment programme, if the backing for those ports is withdrawn for some doctrinaire reason. We have seen, with regard to the port of Liverpool, how the switching of big steamers to Southampton put them back, and for many years caused a great deal of unemployment and. difficulty there. Because there are or may be certain alterations needed in our businesses in opening our commodity markets, do. not let us run the

  2175
  risk of allowing our great invisible exports—which have an ancillary advantage with regard to banking, insurance and brokerage—to be thrown away.
  I realise that these markets cannot be opened on the same basis as before the war in two minutes I cannot help thinking that many people in this country, well informed people, and not violently biased or prejudiced, have the feeling that there is a considerable tendency on the part of this Government, under the guise which is so very easy to put forward, namely, that markets cannot be opened for this or the other not very well founded reason, to fail in their manifest duty to re-open markets of that sort. Today we heard some talk from an hon. "Member about rubber. I do not want to weary the House with that, though, of course, I had been chairman of the London Rubber Association and have spent most of my life as a rubber merchant. I would like to discover the real policy of the Government about rubber and rubber prices. That has a vital effect on us. In the Far East we are dependent on the price of rubber to maintain the standard of living of many of the producers. I would point out to the House that it is very seldom realised that 50 per cent. of the rubber is produced by Asiatic owners themselves and not by the European-owned plantations. That is the sort of question which, in the long run, if well handled will create excellent markets for us and keep full employment, but if not well handled will lead to disaster, and to a loss not only of valuable dollars, which we shall want for many years to come, but also of those markets which will absorb what will be by then a surplus of materials.
  During the war there was made to the people of this country a most impressive plea, and a most successful one, by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), to give us all a sense of urgency. Listening day after day to replies to Questions, getting replies from Ministries, hearing speeches on various Government plans, I cannot help feeling that that sense of urgency is drooping. It is true that the Government have a large and rather indigestible meal on their plate, partly one they have cooked, and prepared for themselves. Nevertheless, if they will put aside some
  2176
  of the more self-appointed and indigestible portions and devote themselves to the more easy ones, that sense of urgency, of putting first things first, would translate itself into an even greater speeding up in production than we are seeing at the present moment.
  My last plea is that which nearly every hon. Member has made, but I should not like to sit down without having put it forward. Between the two sides of the House let us not drift further apart on economic questions. Let us come closer together. During the war we cannot have avoided learning the lesson that it is no service to point out the manifest failures of 20, 30, 40 years ago, and even further back than that. The Government have been given, I will not use the Mesopotamian word "mandate," but the power and the responsibility. Treat us well, give us a chance to help and assist in every way without too much kick and with sufficient carrot, and the Government will find they will have earned the gratitude and possibly, though I do not say this with any confidence, the votes at the next election.
  6.58 p.m.
  Mr. Diamond: In view of the short time at my disposal, the hon. Member for Bury (Mr. W. Fletcher) will forgive me if I do not follow up his points. He referred to hon. Members on this side of the House as being "mandated men," and to those on his side of the House as being "Marxian mice." I think, particularly as far as he himself is concerned, that is a rather good example of the British attitude of understatement.
  The keynote of this Debate has, of course, been the shortage of manpower. I am sure hon. Members opposite would agree with me if I quote from one of their famous predecessors, Disraeli, who said that there can be no economy—and what we must look for is economy in manpower—where there is no efficiency. Therefore, I would like to devote a few minutes to the question of efficiency, not in terms of how one is to achieve efficiency—because I think 1 know sufficient about it to be able to say it cannot be done in a few days or a few weeks—but to the question of how one is to measure efficiency. We have all heard, and been very glad to hear, the Government statement with regard to increasing figures.

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  The disputation that has gone on has been, to a large extent, on the question of what constitutes efficiency, and: whether we are all being as efficient as we can, either in management or in production or any other phase of activity in which we are concerned.
  It seems to me that the Government must set the standard by devoting themselves to considering what is efficiency and how it can best be defined. If I might suggest one definition, it is that which, achieves the nation's interest best. I was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr, Lyttelton) using very similar terms. He said that the touchstone of the Debate would be what is in the national interest.
  It is clear, however, that the machinery for bringing the Government's activities before the House in a form in which they can be readily understood, and in a form which will describe their efficiency, is at the moment lacking. There was considerable discussion of this matter in the building materials Debate. There is of course the audit of the Comptroller-General, which merely tells us whether money which has been spent has been duly authorised. It does not tell us whether it has been wisely spent, which is a matter for this House to consider on being presented by the Government with the facts. Hon. Members opposite seem unduly wedded to the idea of the commercial profit and loss account and balance sheet as indicating the results of business activity. I do not share that view. I think that the balance sheet, though a most admirable instrument, can only tell the shareholders what it is designed to tell them—the amount available for dividend. It is a product of the capitalist system, it shows what the capital is and what dividend is available for distribution. I have yet to hear of any shareholder who will come along to a company meeting and say to the chairman of the board of directors, "Are you sure that in the management of this company, and in the results which you are now disclosing, you have seen to it that your goods have been sold at the minimum price possible compatible with a reasonable return on the capital invested and the best possible conditions for the workers engaged in the business? "In fact, as we all know, the ordinary shareholder is only interested in one thing—what the dividend is.
  2178
  We shall have to develop a new science of measuring efficiency which will include a variety of things. It will of course include whether the money has been duly authorised; it will include a profit and loss account and balance sheet; but it must also include all the other things which are not shown in such documents. It must include an examination of the welfare conditions, the amenities, the amount of plant, the layout, the distribution, and all the variety, of things that go into efficient management. Efficient management at the moment is decided by the board, who decide the policy, and the people who carry out their instructions. They have in their heads certain general principles on which they work. I suggest that we must develop a method of measuring to find out, in the first place, whether those principles are good and sound and in the nation's interest, and in the second place, with what success they have been applied.
  The Prime Minister very wisely pointed out yesterday that there are some activities which cannot easily be measured. My point is that we should be in a position to measure those activities, and not only to measure them but to put them before the Government, who in their turn would bring them before the House in such a way that we could discuss them. I realise that it would be impudent for a Member who has been in this House such a short time to suggest any machinery whereby it could be done, but 1 am encouraged to find, in the 16th Report of the Select Committee on National Expenditure, a very similar suggestion. I will read paragraph 124:
  "Your Committee's recommendations up to this point have been concerned mainly with arrangements in the Treasury and the Departments for ensuring the efficiency of the Civil Service."
  Here we are again on the question of efficiency.
  "The experience of the last 25 years, however, suggests that such recommendations are frequently shelved, and that a continuous authoritative stimulus is required if effect, in the spirit as well as in the letter, is to be given to needed changes. In the opinion of your Committee, that stimulus can most effectively be applied by Parliament itself. In the financial sphere Parliament has the right and duty of satisfying itself that the work of the Executive has been carried out efficiently and economically. Part of this duty is performed through the Public Accounts Committee, which has the help of the Comptroller and Auditor-General in ascertaining whether the money provided by Parliament has been properly spent. Your

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  Committee has reached the conclusion that an analogous review is needed in order to guarantee as far as may be possible that the public service is provided with efficient and economic machinery for the execution of policy approved by Parliament."
  In its final paragraph the Report goes on:
  It is, in short, your Committee's belief that the existence of a Select Committee actively interested in questions of administrative methods and organisation would provide not only a stimulus but a more co-operative understanding between the House, the Executive and the public, which should go far to maintain at the highest level the efficiency of the Government machine both in war and peace."
  I appreciate that that suggestion was directed towards ascertaining the efficiency of the Civil Service, but in view of the fact that the Government are going to increase greatly their industrial and trading activities, it is important that there should be a similar committee drawn from this House, which would have the services of a permanent official who might be described as an "efficiency auditor," to borrow a term which I saw in "The Times" a few days ago, to examine and report on investigations into particular industries directed towards the general question of efficiency in its fullest sense. It would submit its reports for debate by this House from time to time. We were very glad to hear from the Lord President today that opportunities will be provided for debating our economic situation, and this might well be included under that heading.
  As a Socialist and as a business man, I am profoundly convinced that nationalisation leads to efficiency, and I am quite sure that the time will come when the Government will have to put the results of its nationalised undertakings before the House for them to be considered. I am satisfied that the present accounting methods, and the form in which those results are presented, will show nothing. It has been said that figures can prove anything, as indeed they can if one does not give the whole figures. If one gives the whole story, they do not prove anything but the right answer. I would therefore urge the Government to consider setting up such a committee, so that it can lay the whole story before the House and prove the value of nationalisation.
  7.9 p.m.
  Mr. W. J. Brown: This Debate has lasted for nearly two days,
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  the hour is late, and I shall be as brief as I possibly can. I start with the assumption that whether hon. Members are advocates of a Socialist State, advocates of unrestricted capitalism, or advocates of that peculiarly English combination between Socialism and capitalism which is now being worked out, we all want the best and the most effective disposal of the available manpower of the country that is possible to us. It would be very easy indeed to attack our present dispositions in relation to manpower, and I myself in earlier Debates have quoted many of what I think are remarkable cases of the waste of manpower in Britain. But tonight I want to look very briefly at a wider canvas than that would represent. The most remarkable social phenomenon of the last two centuries has been the amazing increase in the productivity of mankind in the machine age. The machine has multiplied by hundreds and thousands man's power to produce goods. But it is almost an equally remarkable phenomenon that there has been no rise in the standard of life of the people to compare with the vast increase in the productive power of the machine. I think it could be argued that the position of the British workman today is rather worse than it was at the time of Henry VIII. If anyone doubts that let him read the opening chapters of Froude's "History of the Tudors." Froude describes conditions in the early part of the 16th century. There were many articles of consumption which were inordinately cheap. Strong beer was Id. a gallon. Wine was is a gallon. Beef was two pounds for a penny, and mutton was three pounds for a penny. And there was nearly a strike about the unduly high cost of living!
  It would be common form to suppose that this vast increase in the productive power of the machine had been drained away by the cupidity of the capitalist, and I do not doubt that many examples of the cupidity of the capitalist might be cited. But I think that there has been another and vastly more important element than that at work. It is the terrific growth in the proportion of the population now employed upon unproductive work. I saw a study made sometime ago of this phenomenon in America, where a comparison was struck. I speak with reserve about the years. The actual

  2181
  years do not matter: it is the. point I want to bring out. This study was, I think, for the period between 1870 and 1930 in America. The thing was diagrammatically illustrated by a circle divided into segments. One segment represented agriculture, one represented industry, and the third represented "services" of one sort or another. If the circle for 1930 were compared with that of 1870 you would have found that the proportion of the population employed in agriculture had sharply declined; that the proportion of people engaged in industry had declined somewhat. But the segment represented by services had expanded out of all recognition. I have not seen a precisely similar diagram in respect of this country, but on the basis of my lifetime's experience I should hazard the statement that the same comparison was true here—in proportion, of course. Broadly, the trend has been the same—a diminishing proportion of people actually engaged in production, and an increasing proportion— (and now a tremendous proportion)—engaged in "services." That would be true here just as much as it is true of America.
  One explanation of that undue growth of the proportion of the population engaged in "services" has been the operation of the profit motive. It is the fact, for example, that before the war you could get all the money you liked for dog-race tracks, cinemas, "pubs" and the like. But you found it extremely difficult to get money for heavy industry, because the profits in those industries were greater That played a great part in causing a dis-balance between productive and unproductive labour in our community.
  While it is true that the play of the profit motive takes this process a certain way, it is also true that then Government action takes it still further. This is a point on which I would beg the House to reflect. It is not merely that the State takes a steadily increasing number of men for the Armed Forces, although it does that. Before the last war—I mean the first great war of 1914–18—our total Armed Forces were about 200,000. The lowest estimate I have seen of our postwar army is 1,100,000, or five times as much. The Navy, as I recollect it, numbered about 120,000 personnel before the first
  2182
  great war. Today it is much greater than that figure, and, probably, never will it be as low as 120,000 again. The Royal Air Force before the 1914–18 war did not exist at all, but is now an important and big item in the defensive mechanism of this country. I am not blaming the Government for this. I ask hon. Members not to construe this as an attack. It is part of the inevitability of things so to speak: But Government action adds to this disbalance.
  That is not only true in relation to the Armed Forces, but also in relation to other Services. Before the great war of 1914–18 the Civil Service numbered about 200,000. It has grown during my contact with it to 750,000 today. Please do not misunderstand me. It is no part of my case that these men are not working hard. It is no part of my case that they are not doing a useful job, but it is part of my case that all this labour has to come out of the total limited reserve of manpower. And if you use it on one type of occupation you cannot use it for another. I remember that when I joined the Office of Works in 1912 the total staff was less than 200, and all of us were accommodated in one Georgian house in Birdcage Walk. The Office of Works today has a staff approaching 15,000, and it occupies 39 buildings in the London area alone. Here again, it is no part of my case that these men are not doing a thunderingly good job of work, but I am saying that the growth of the proportion of people unproductively employed, because they are carrying out Government policy, is a fact to which we have to have regard in determining our manpower position.
  I want, as I have said, to be very brief. I ask what we are going to do about it? My answer is first, in all legislation we pass in this House we have to recollect that after a Bill has gone through men and women have to operate that Bill, and that the number of men and women required to operate the Bill is an item we ought to take into account in the credit and debit calculation of our legislation. Secondly, I urge that we should use the control of investment to stop the undue flow of investment into the less necessary industries, and to promote the flow of investment into the more necessary industries. I should sooner do that by control of investment at the centre, than control of operations at the circumference.

  2183
  it takes less labour to control things at the centre than it does to do so in detail at the circumference. We have a Bill on this matter on the way to the Statute Book and I think the Government in operating that Bill should have very careful regard to this Debate tonight. Thirdly, we have got to increase production and I agree with everything that has been said in that connection.
  Whatever we are to give to the common people of this country, and whatever form it takes, it can only come out of the wealth produced in this country by the labour of hand and brain. I think, perhaps, the Labour Government are in a better position, perhaps, to emphasise that than a Conservative Government. Next, whatever Government is in power we have to increase the rewards in the productive industries by comparison with the rewards in the unproductive industries. If we do not, the drift from the essential into the unessential industries will continue. I regard it as one of the biggest paradoxes of my lifetime that the worst remunerated jobs in Britain have been those which were most essential to the community, those of the farm labourer and of the miner. To stop the drift from the mines, and from the land, when controls come off, as they ultimately must, we must pay rewards in those industries more commensurate with what men can get in other industries. Otherwise, the drift will go on. That means that the Government must have some sort of wages policy.
  I heard with dismay what the Lord President of the Council said about this matter today. I thought it represented an abdication of both the functions and the powers of Government. He asked, "If we are to have a wages policy, what is it to be? "I will throw out two suggestions. The first is that they should look as far as New Zealand and Australia, and other reputable countries, which have established a decent minimum wage below which no person is employed. If that can be done in any industry, it can be done in all. I know of a firm, whose managing director is a Member of this House, which pays a minimum wage of£5 a week for every adult worker at the age of 21. In Australia and New Zealand they have a basic minimum wage, with fluctuating additions corresponding to the cost of living in the particular, State in
  2184
  which the worker lives. We could at least get that right.
  The second suggestion is that it ordinary trade union-employer negotiation does not produce the necessary remedy for the low wage conditions of essential industries, that machinery must be supplemented by Government action, if we are to avoid the undesirable social consequences that have been mentioned.
  I have not made the speech which 1 intended to make, but I beg the House to consider the three or four points I have presented. Above all, I ask the Government not to retreat into negation on the subject of wages, I ask them to direct their attention to getting a proper equation of the use of our manpower, between the productive and the non-productive industries of the country.
  7.23 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel Nigel Birch: I hope that the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) will forgive me for not following him in all the very interesting points that he made. I was interested in what he said about how much work is required after we have passed an Act of Parliament. He gave the only really strong case I have heard for the Trade Disputes and Trade Unions Bill, though it was a negative case, because that Bill will not require anyone to operate it.
  There has been general agreement in the House throughout the Debate that the country is faced with a very serious situation. My right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) painted the situation black while the Prime Minister and the Lord President of the Council painted it in varying shades of grey. I do not think that it is very profitable to discuss whether the position is dead black or only dirty grey. It is serious and it has to be faced. Everyone has come to the conclusion that the main thing required is increased production and a great many points have been raised about how increased production should be effected. The first point I wish to make is negative. I believe we shall not get increased production by preaching to people. It is no good telling people to face the facts, appealing to them to put their shoulders to the wheel, to leave no stone unturned, to pull up their socks. They have heard all that before. I agree with almost

  2185
  everything that the Prime Minister and the Lord President of the Council said, but I do not believe that their speeches will increase production by a single brass button. I believe it is true that the country is still behind the Prime Minister, but it is very far behind him.
  I have a most profound faith in the people of this country. I have no doubt at all that they will do their duty, but the condition for getting people to do so is that they must be treated as adults. The way to convert an adult to a course of action is not by preaching at him but by telling him the facts, discussing them with him and making out a plan which suits the facts with which you have to deal. With great respect to the Lord President of the Council, whom I am very glad to see come in again, I do not believe that our people are being told the truth it may be that they are being told some facets of the truth, but not in a way they will find easy to understand. We got into very bad habits in the war of concealing facts and statistics. There was an example of this habit the other day when the Minister of Food, speaking in this House, said it was ridiculous that people did not know there was a serious food position because all they needed to do was to read between the lines of Lord Nathan's speech in another place in reply to the Bishop of Chichester. Then they would have known what was going on. I doubt very much whether anybody in this country has ever read the Noble Lord's speeches, so it is asking a lot to say that they ought to have been able to read between the lines.
  The statistical blackout has been partially lifted and now we have "The Statistical Digest." People with knowledge of statistics and a good deal of leisure can derive information from it. Two really vital bits of information are however omitted—stocks of food and our reserves of foreign exchange. We cannot really get at the truth when those two items are left out. Then there is no real Production Index. I would point out to the Lord President of the Council that statistics are very difficult to deal with. In his speech he gave figures of production that had gone up 60 per cent., without saying the point from which the rise had started! When the White Paper dealing with housing was issued, I looked
  2186
  at it with curiosity to see how many permanent houses had been built in Wales. The answer was one. I am not sanguine about housing but I shall be very surprised if that figure has not been increased by much more than 60 per cent at the next return. That instance shows that you have to be careful when dealing with statistics.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Lich-field (Major C. Poole), who I am sorry to see is not in his place, said that he was a lover of figures. Most people are not lovers of figures. Figures are dry and difficult to interpret. It is no good the Lord President of the Council saying, "Now we have this Green Book we really know where we are." Statistics in that form do not get across. All economists and the technical journals have estimated that the new demands on our real resources are likely over the next few years to exceed any probable increase in those resources. I will not go through all the demands—they have been mentioned many times—for example the Armed Forces, the price of coal, housing, a better standard of living and last, but not least, the immense need of capital re-equipment in our industries. Everybody knows that these things are thoroughly desirable. Hon. Members opposite sometimes talk as though we gloated because these things could not be obtained all at once: it is part of their "Malice in Wonderland" about us that we are against all progress. The fact is that we are pledged to them but we' know that we cannot get them all at once. The Lord President of the Council admitted this when he talked about the pipeline needing to fill up.
  What is needed is proper targets and proper priorities. I put forward, as a lively and constructive suggestion, that statistics should be presented in a form more easily understandable by the man-in-the-street. They should be presented diagrammatically and pictorially. On the one side there should be the various demands—for the Armed Forces, for National Insurance and so on—and on the other side the resources available to meet those claims. If the claims are greater than the resources, there should be a plan by which some of the claims can be cut down. The value of that sort of method would be that it could be proved diagrammatically and pictorially

  2187
  that when production had gone up by a certain amount other claims could be met, and it could be shown what part of those claims could be met. I believe that if the Government presented statistics and targets in that way, they would be much more likely to get results than they will by throwing a very difficult green book at the head of the public, and saying, "Now they know all about it."
  If these priorities are to be decided correctly, there must be a plan. I should feel much happier if I could really believe that the Government had any plan at the top level. What we have now is an unconditional pledge that the cost of living will stay where it is, combined with constant overdrawing on our resources; and this can only bring material ruin to us, and, I say to hon. Members opposite, political ruin to them. What we shall get is high prices, going up in an unbalanced way, and what is even more important, the capital re-equipment of our industry is likely to be starved. I have noticed that when any hon. Member on this side of the House mentions the word "planning," there is always a slight movement of surprise among hon. Members opposite. Nobody on this side believes in laissez faire. That is a Liberal doctrine. The quarrel we have with hon. Members opposite is about the level at which planning should take place. The Lord President of the Council said that we can learn a great deal from a military practice, In a humble capacity, I have done a little planning on the military side. The first thing one. has to decide, in military planning, is upon the object, upon what one is really trying to do, and the second thing, which is almost of equal importance, is to decide whose battle it is. The planning of any operation has to be done by the people who are going to fight the battle, and by nobody else. I am sure I shall carry with me all my hon. and right hon. Friends when I say that we believe it is the job of the State to plan the shape of the national income.
  What is happening now is that there is no master plan at the top, but a great many plans at the bottom for fighting other people's battles for them. It is rather as if an Army commander said, I am not really clear what I am going
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  to attack, or who is going to attack, but let us all get on and attack; I am going to send a working party to every division and tell it what it ought to do; I am pretty sure that everybody from the rank of lance-corporal upwards is really inefficient and ought to be sacked; but I am not going to sack them." I think a general situation of that sort is very difficult to sustain, and that an Army in which that kind of thing happened would not win its battles. We need a plan at the right level, a clear directive as to what is to be done, and then we should leave other people to fight their own battles. The absence of a clear plan at the top, combined with interference lower down, is not planning, but chaos.
  7.35 p.m.
  Mr. Mitchison: I suggest to the hon. and gallant Member for Flint (Lieut.-Colonel Birch) that there is one essential difference between planning in war and planning in peace. The intention of planning in war is to defeat the enemy, but in planning in peace one is not intending to defeat anybody, and the purpose is to promote the advantage of the country and the people of the country. I listened very carefully, with great respect and some amusement, to what the hon. and gallant Member said, but. I failed to appreciate the type of plan he: would wish this Government or any Government to have. That, indeed, seems to be the difficulty underlying very much of the Debate. Hon. Members on the benches opposite have time and again used words which seemed to infer that what they desire is to go back to some prewar form and structure of society, accompanied, no doubt, by what was frequently referred to, rather significantly, as the re-equipment of industry. Hon. Members opposite have expressed the desire, in a most benevolent way, that we should all turn round and go back hand-in-hand together. But that is not planning; it is not going forward. Such an attitude, surely, shows a complete failure to appreciate that, after the convulsion which has shaken the world during the last six years, we shall never go back to the form and shape of things before the war. If it is the case that we do not know exactly where we are going, that we do not know exactly what the figures will be next year or in a few years' time, I can only say that that is the sort of uncertaintly which has always been attendant upon every form of' human

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  society, an uncertainty without which there could be no progress and none of the opportunities that are presented to us simply by the very uncertainty in which we move. One cannot expect to plan in that sense with certainty.
  There are one or two things 1 think one can say as regards the reallocation of manpower and its connection with planning. Under the system of society that formerly existed, there can be no reasonable doubt, according to expert evidence, that the major industries of this country fell lamentably behind, and were, I will not say individually mismanaged, but under a system in which they could not possibly develop The result is that at present it is extremely doubtful whether either the coal industry or the textile industry has the possibilities of exporting that it might have had if it had been better managed. There are, of course, other things which affect the position, such as the shortage of coal and the difficulty of recruiting into the industry, and there are similar difficulties in the textile industry. Our other main exports have always been under the heading of vehicles, machinery, electrical goods, and so on. These have been essentially goods dependent upon individual skill originally, and afterwards upon skill in processing and in technology.
  I cannot help feeling that a guiding principle that we might have in mind in considering the development of our economy, particularly in. relation to exports, is that where it is a matter of the export of goods in large masses, produced in a similar form—such as most forms of textiles—we stand a far poorer chance of competing with such countries as the United States, and countries which are just coming into the field of mass production, than we stand in those more limited industries in which our peculiar skill in invention, technology and workmanship has special scope.
  If I am right in that general suggestion, then I would go one step further and say that we have heard from the benches opposite much criticism of the neglect of the Government to foster individual enterprise in some form or another. We must charge that against individual enterprise and Conservative Governments in the past, and their singular failure to promote and co-ordinate industrial research.
  2190
  It has been on a private basis, highly competitive, and operating under a patent system which has had the effect of cramping and even suppressing inventions. It is one of the most remarkable failures of the Victorian system of industrialism which has continued up to now—a failure aggravated by the larger combines and the use they have made of inventions and patents.
  Therefore, I would suggest that in the allocation of manpower—if there is anything in the diagnosis of export possibilities, if there is anything in the need for research on a far larger scale and with a far broader point of view than we have seen it before—the Government themselves must take some considerable responsibility for these things. They must consider their planning not merely in the allocation of manpower, and not merely as the planning or replanning of old and stable industries. They must consider it as comprising, at least in equal degree, the establishment of new industries and the practical application of inventions. They must consider the encouragement of public enterprise and inventions by recruiting a very large body of young men in the country, whether they are scientists, industrialists or public servants, who, in a mixture of these three capacities, can render the most valuable service to the country and lead us one step further at least towards the change in the structure of industry, as well as in the structure in society, that is surely inevitable in the years to come. If we try in this country to go on as the old industrial society we were before the war, I suggest that we cannot get prosperity for our people, we cannot improve our standard of living, and we cannot give them the opportunities that they now need. We cannot ensure the use, for the benefit of all, of the remarkable discoveries that science has been making in past generations and which have been so successfully applied to the plans of war and need to be applied to the plans of peace and the cause of progress.
  7.45 p.m.
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: We have been listening for two days to a Debate, which I think one can say with truth, has been mainly devoted to recognising that events abroad, over which we have no control, materially affect conditions in this country. It has contributed

  2191
  to a realisation of the difficulties with which we find ourselves at home, and the remedies which we can, if we want, within our own power and ambit, apply to many of these difficulties. The Debate started as an analysis of the situation by my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) based very largely on the Monthly Digest of statistics which the Government have inaugurated. My right hon. Friend asked a considerable number of questions and offered a number of constructive suggestions. So far, following the usual practice of the Government Front Bench, more especially since the invitation addressed to us by the Lord President of the Council to put forward constructive suggestions, these questions have not been answered, and little comment has been made on the suggestions. I hope that the President of the Board of Trade, when he replies, will deal with the problems put forward by my right hon. Friend.
  The other opening speech was by the Prime Minister. He made a very moving appeal to the people not only to face up to their difficulties, but also to co-operate in trying to solve them. It was followed today by a speech by the right hon Gentleman the Lord President of the Council I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) that anyone listening to those two speeches would have gained very different impressions of the state of the nation. I think that, with due moderation, the Prime Minister was endeavouring to paint not too gloomy a picture of the conditions with which we are faced. Nevertheless, he indicated the extreme seriousness of the fact that we are faced with, and have to meet, the problem of a shortage of manpower. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council gave most of us, I think, the impression that he was trying to show the success of the Government in providing the necessary manpower. Listening to him, I failed to reconcile the figures he gave with chose which were given by the Prime Minister. We shall be very grateful if the President of the Board of Trade can tell us what is the solution. As I understood it, the reason given by the Lord President of the Council for this relatively abundant manpower compared with 1938–39, was that by the end of the year we should have practically no unemployment,
  2192
  whereas in 1939 we suffered from one and a quarter million unemployed.
  I have taken the trouble to look up what the Prime Minister said. When he was comparing the figures of manpower in December, 1946, with those of prewar days he used the words "Men able and willing to work." Presumably, therefore, he included the unemployed in the 1938 figures. He said that in December, 1946, we should have 20,000,000, whereas in 1939 we had only 19,750,000, so that 250,000 more men would be available than there were in 1939. From that there has to be deducted an increase in the armed Forces and an increase in the number of men making munitions of a total of some 2,000,000. There is also to be taken into account a very large increase in the number of persons employed in national and local government services, which I make out to be an increase of 400,000. In addition to that, as I understood him, the right hon. Gentleman said we should have as many men engaged on civilian consumption in December 1946, as we had in the prewar period, and, in addition, the number of men engaged on making goods for export was greater than ever before in our history. The Prime Minister yesterday said the figure was 400,000. These figures do not tot up. Moreover, we are told, the Minister of Health hopes to have 1,400,000 men on house building and civil engineering, which would be well in excess of the figures for the corresponding prewar period. Where is this great excess of manpower to come from? What industries or services are the Government proposing to decrease in December 1946 to the tune of something approaching 4,000,000? I would like the President of the Board of Trade to tell us how those figures are reached?
  The other point on which everyone who has taken part in this Debate is agreed is the need, having regard to the shortage of manpower, to make the maximum use, and the best possible use, of the manpower that is available, to avoid waste, and at the same time to try by such means as are available to encourage enterprise, efficiency and hard work. I think hon. Members on all sides of. the House will agree to that. In regard to the appeal that was made by the Prime Minister for hard work and more production, I have already said that we on this side recognise the

  2193
  necessity for joint effort as much as anybody. No one realises that better than the great body of individual British manufacturers, and it we are to get back to the prewar provision of civilian goods, with still more required for export, they will have to put forward the maximum amount of ingenuity, hard work and enterprise. That was reinforced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Alder-shot yesterday and by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Stanley) today. Does the Prime Minister or the Lord President of the Council seriously believe that the methods they are adopting are going to achieve that end? Are both right hon. Gentlemen so devoid of imagination and so ignorant of men's natural feelings as to suppose that week after week they can spend Saturdays and Sundays abusing them, holding them up to obloquy and running them down, preserving incidentally the choicest epithets for the Lord's Day, and then in the middle of the week expect these same men to believe right hon. Gentlemen opposite, when they hail them as the saviours of their country. The Lord President of the Council today said he had every sympathy with industry.
  Mr. H. Morrison: If these things have been said, it would be more to the point if the right hon. Gentleman would give us one or two specific quotations of this malicious, dreadful, personal abuse, and. who is doing it.
  Mr. Hudson: The party to which the right hon. Gentleman belongs and the Press which supports them. I have no time to read them all. [An Hon. Member: "Just one."] The right hon. Gentleman said he had great good will towards industry, and he went on in another part of his speech to suggest that it was doing a disservice to this country to attack the efficiency of British industry when you are abroad. He said that, very often, what you said inside the country, did not matter so much.
  Mr. Morrison: That is not what I said at all.
  Mr. Hudson: It comes very badly from the right hon. Gentleman when we think of what he said in Canada only the other day. When he was in Canada he took the trouble to run down the efficiency of many of the important basic industries of this
  2194
  country. He said, or at least he was reported as saying, that transport was in a bad way; that the iron and steel industry was in a bad way. Then he comes and asks us to believe he is sincere when he says he has good will towards industry in this country. I think he ought to be consistent. The party opposite really ought to decide which line they are going to take. Are they going to say that they want reconciliation with industry—that they want, as the hon. Member for West Coventry (Mr. Edelman) said, to get together in co-operation in solving this difficulty; or are they going to continue to do as they have done in the past, and abuse industry and talk about its inefficiency? In the difficulty with which they find themselves confronted today and in regard to which they are making an appeal, they are reaping the whirlwind they sowed not only during the past 12 months but during the past 20 years Whether they meant it or not, the whole trend of their teaching and preaching has been that, if only the State were in control, most of our problems would disappear, and the old bogys of want and unemployment, would be no more. I picked up the other day a book, which I found too late unfortunately for use during the General Election. It is by the Under-Secretary of State for Air in the present Government. It is not an old book for it was published in 1944 and is described as a completely revised and up-to-date version. On page 64, the author says:
  " What Socialism really means is giving nine-tenths of us a chance to get at least ten times as much individual, private, property—ten times as much clothing, houses, gardens, motor cars, supplies of food, furniture, and the like as we ever get today."
  There is nothing about hard work, nothing about production. Yesterday the Prime. Minister came along and reversed all that, and said the solution of our present domestic problems was hard work. [An Hon. Member: "For all of us."] Yes, and I am not afraid of it. I have had plenty of it in my lifetime. If the workers in industry have been allowed to believe that the profit motive is immoral and that they are justified, as the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. Evans) said this evening, in endeavouring to work as little as possible for as much as possible, the Government have only themselves to blame. This is the natural result of Socialist propaganda.

  2195
  Now as we understand it, the Government are, at last realising their mistakes and are facing the problem and I congratulate the Lord President of the Council on speaking some home truths. He said the Government must get the workers to unlearn the lessons which they themselves have taught. Let us have less nonsense in future about the wickedness of profit and more emphasis about the importance of earning profits and wages by the only way in which they can be honestly earned—by more production.
  The new doctrine which the party opposite are preaching places them in this dilemma. The workers, so the argument runs, will not give of their best under present conditions unless they can be provided with more consumer goods; there will not be increased exports which are required unless consumer goods are put at the workers' disposal. On the other hand, the argument runs, we cannot tolerate any reduction in the meagre exports we are already making, otherwise we shall not be able to purchase the raw materials required for the production of home goods, let alone those for export. It is a vicious circle, and it is up to the Government to break it. We hope that the President of the Board of Trade will tell us how it is proposed to break the circle. I think he will find some difficulty in dispelling some of the illusions prevalent in his party.
  I turn to another subject on which, I have noticed with some astonishment, there is a large measure of agreement among Members opposite. I am surprised that they raised it, but I think it is a very good sign. I refer to a wages policy. I notice that in a recent pamphlet issued by the Labour Party great attention is paid to the question of arriving at a wages policy. A day or two ago, I interrupted the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture to ask him about a wages policy and he said, "What is yours?" But we are not the Government. We do not have to answer that question We believe in the system of private enterprise. Under such a system, an individual trade union is free to negotiate with the employer concerned, and reach such a settlement as their respective strength allows them to reach; Under a system of private enterprise no Government wages policy is. essential. But today we are not living under a system: of private enterprise;.we
  2196
  are living under a Government which believes in planned economy. We are living in a time of full employment caused by a shortage of manpower, and the dangers of unregulated advances in wages—I am not trying to score a party point on this matter; it will be of supreme importance in the next few years—in individual industries or services are strikingly set out in the Labour Party pamphlet. We should like to know whether the President of the Board of Trade can throw a little more light on the subject than was shown by the Lord President of the Council.
  It is significant how many speakers from the opposite side have said that they were sorry to hear the very negative reply given by the Lord President of the Council. The logical solution, which the Labour Party are going to shirk, is for the Government to say to the trade unions that during a period of manpower shortage no demands for increased wages, whether they take the form of more wages for the same hours or fewer hours for the same wages, can be put forward without Government permission. That is the logical remedy in a planned economy; we cannot get away from that. But I am not at all sure that the trade unions would agree. Did the trade unions ask Government permission before they suggested, the other day, a reduction at once to the 40 hour week? Did the miners get Government permission to ask for a reduction of their weekly hours to 35? What is the Government's position in regard to these two demands? Did the Government agree with the Parliamentary Minister to the Ministry of National Insurance who, it is reported, said only last week:
  " The Government will give the trade unions every inducement to seek: wage in creases."
  The hon. Gentleman must have said that before he read his Party's pamphlet. Unless the Government offer a wages policy how will they, in a time of shortage of manpower, man up our essential industries? Do they agree that the essential of a sound wages policy especially in our present difficulties, is to relate wages to productivity? The Labour Party's pamphlet argued that wage increases, if not accompanied by increased productivity, merely lead to inflation. Do the Government agree? I hope the President of the Board of Trade will answer these questions.

  2197
  The Lord President of the Council said that we needed more agricultural production, and several Members on the Labour Benches have stressed the fact that if we are to get people into the less attractive industries, they must be paid wages adequate to attract them, and commensurate with their productivity. We would agree with that, but let me take, as an instance, what was said yesterday by the hon. and gallant Member for East Wolverhampton (Captain Baird):
  " Even skilled engineers are apt to argue that they should have a better wage than the miner or the farm labourer. Yet the skill required for their task is no more than the skill required for the agricultural labourer's and the miner's task. The drift will not be stopped from the land or the pits until the standard of living of the agricultural worker and the miner is equal to that of the engineer. I am not suggesting that the engineer's wage should be reduced; I am arguing that the standard of life of the agricultural worker and the miner should be raised to that of the engineer. The dirtier and the riskier the job the more money should be paid for it. The Government must face up to the question of formulating a wages policy for industry."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1946; Vol. 419, c. 2031]
  The hon. and gallant Gentleman put one part of the case very well but, like the Prime Minister and the Lord President of the Council, shied when he came to the jump. What do the Government propose to do? How do they propose to ensure that? Will the engineer remain content to see the agricultural worker's wage brought up to his, when he considers himself a skilled man, and not ask for more? What happened during the war? Every time there was an increase in agricultural workers' wages it was immediately followed by demands from other workers in rural areas for an equivalent increase, in order that the differential between their status and wage rates should remain as great as it had been before. The agricultural workers were justified in having a greater wage, because they gave greater productivity as the result of a very great deal of harder work and increased mechanisation The road men did not give any increased productivity but their wages were raised pan passu and there is still a differential between the two. If we go on that way, we get into the vicious spiral which is condemned so rightly in the Labour Party pamphlet. What we on this side would like to know is whether the Labour Party will face the problem
  2198
  involved. The Minister of Health has told us that when the recent increase of 4d. an hour in the wages of building trade workers was granted, he received a pledge from both sides of the industry that the extra costs would be absorbed by increased productivity, and that no increase in the selling price of houses would be needed. Have the Government any evidence that that has, in fact, been the case? Our information goes to show that the only result has been a proportionate increase in the cost of houses.
  The other problem with which the Labour Party are faced, one that has been suggested by many hon. Members, is that of providing some alternative incentive to work. The mere increase of, wages does not seem today to provide an adequate incentive. Anyone who doubts this has only to look at the recent history of coal. Continual wage increases have been granted but production has steadily fallen. Could the President of the Board of Trade tell us how the Prime Minister thinks his appeal yesterday is going to affect the output of coal? The pamphlet poses a further question that was also raised by the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison). It is how to attract labour into basic industries like cotton. It is suggested that wages in the cotton industry will have to be increased, but surely this will be nugatory if at the same time we increase those in the engineering industries which are the chief competitors with cotton for the available labour. Do the Government intend to take up this problem? Let me repeat, so that there shall be no doubt, that it is a matter for a Socialist Government and not for us.
  Relevant to this problem of the deficiency of labour and the output of labour is the Prime Minister's statement that we ought not to think about output per man hour but output per nation hour. If anyone can explain what that means we shall be very grateful. What any individual workman or factory wants to know is what is the output per week, and output per man week today, under conditions of full employment, is very much more important than output per man hour. Industry after industry is reporting today that men are giving a reasonable and, in many cases, quite a good output per man hour for four days, but are absenting themselves for the other two and thereby dislocating the factory and sky-rocketing

  2199
  prices and costs of production, because although their output per man hour while they are at work is good their output per man week, on which overheads and costs of production depend, is seriously lower. If the Government cannot find some remedy for that, then quite seriously we shall be faced with the state of affairs in which, under full employment, the output of 1oo men will be, in fact, less than was the output of 90 men under prewar conditions of partial employment.
  Let me say a word about the appeal the Prime Minister made to the employers, who are as patriotic as any other section of the population although they have their black sheep like everybody else. The Prime Minister took credit for an increase in exports in January to a level of£57,000,000. The astonishing thing to me is not that the figure is not higher, but that it is as high as it is. Employers and manufacturers, in my view, deserve great credit for overcoming to that extent the obstacles with which they have been faced. I repeat the suggestion made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot that the Lord President might ' well be advised to stop crying "stinking fish" and bestow a little praise on these people. Nothing, in my experience, is more infuriating than being told to get on with the job when one is not given the necessary material, men, or tools. I would say to the Government, as my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol said earlier, that they must realise the essential difference between controls in peacetime and in wartime. In wartime, controls were definitely designed to restrict ordinary industrial production in order that all our efforts, or the greatest part of them, could be concentrated on the production of goods required for war. But now the machine has to be reversed and the controls, within the limits that we all agree are required by a shortage of raw materials or consumer goods, should be inspired by an expansionist rather than a restrictive policy. It should, I believe, be the aim both of the Minister who is responsible and, as my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol rightly pointed out, of all those right down the scale who are engaged in administering the controls locally, to help, not to hinder; to reduce the difficulties, not to increase them; to expedite decisions,no to delay them. In a word, they should try to be simple, flexible and helpful. If the
  2200
  President of the Board of Trade would only impress this on his colleagues I think industry would not be hampered in its efforts for recovery as it is today. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol gave examples of the sort of frustration that men are subjected to who want to get on with the job—applying for one licence here and being told to get another one there. The examples of delay could be multiplied, not only in every town but in almost every village in this country today. The staggering thing is that we have raised our export trade to the figure we have. Let me remind the House of a sentence in the Prime Minister's speech yesterday. He said:
  "If today we want houses, clothes, coal, food, the necessities and amenities of life, we have to realise that we cannot depend on other people doing, their best to provide for us unless we ourselves are rendering the best service we can."— [Official Report, 27th February, 1946; Vol. 419, c. 1970.]
  I agree fully with every word of that sentence, but there is an old saying about the mote in one own's eye. The success of the Prime Minister's appeal depends very largely on individual Members opposite. If, as a Party, they would concentrate on preaching the doctrine that the Prime Minister indicated in that sentence, to the millions of people who voted for them last time, in the belief that the millenium, if round the corner was only just round the corner, and if, as a Government, they would—as was suggested by one hon. Member of the Labour Party in the Debate yesterday—despite the excuses that the Lord President made today, concentrate for a spell on first things first, and devote all their thoughts and energies to dealing with and remedying the present situation and to finding answers to the problems put up to them from all sides of the House—not only from this Bench but in even stronger language from the Benches opposite—if they would concentrate on those tasks, then I believe that we might see the beginning of a revival of that spirit of unity and co-operation that saw this country through after Dunkirk. They could then, I believe, count on the co-operation of all sections and classes of people, and let me assure them that if they did that they could count no less on the co-operation and help of hon.
  Members on these Benches.
  8.20 p.m.
  The President of the Board of Trade (Sir Stafford Cripps): I think these two days of Debate have disclosed a very large measure of common concern on both sides of the House at our economic difficulties, and a sincere desire on all sides to help in the problem of their solution. Indeed, I think, with the exception of the three speeches from the Front Bench opposite, one might well say that there has been little political partisanship in the Debate. It would, therefore, seem quite inappropriate for me to wind up this Debate with a controversial speech. I would rather try to make what constructive contribution I can by summing up and explaining to the best of my ability the major points that have been raised in the course of the Debate. I hope that in so doing I shall be able to answer many of the questions which have been put forward by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  I start with our domestic problem because that, I think, is the one which most intimately concerns the people of this country at the moment. On the domestic side of our economy, the task with which we are faced is to refill the civil pipelines, so that there may be a plenteous flow out of them of consumer goods of all kinds for our people. But a part, and a very vital and important part of that flow, must come either directly or indirectly from overseas, and in order to obtain that we must, of course, be able to export commodities in exchange. Starting from a normal state of affairs in 1939, throughout 1940 and 1941, we continued to live far above the standard that our then current production could possibly provide, and that we did by drawing upon and exhausting all our stocks in reserve. The pipeline was emptied and we consumed all that there was in the shops and the warehouses and even the goods which were in the half-manufactured state in the factories then turning over to war production.
  The exhaustion of our stocks was, of course, very ably assisted by the hundreds of millions of pounds' worth of goods, destroyed both in our homes and shops and factories by the blitz. Since 1942 we have been hanging on. as best we could, with the help of Lend-Lease and mutual aid supplies, but with a gradual lowering
  2202
  of supply levels ourselves. Since V.E. Day, and only since V.E. Day, we have started on the upgrade as regards our domestic supplies, and I think that people sometimes fail to realise that this process of recovery must be a slow one. Take, for instance, such a case as a cotton mill. First of all, arrangements have to be made to release the cotton mill from its wartime use, whatever it may be. Then it has to be rehabilitated, refitted with its machinery, and made ready for cotton production. Then the staff and workers have to be collected and the whole process of manufacture started up and, when once it has been started up and all that process has been gone through, it will take eight to twelve months before the first results from that mill are seen in the shops of the country. That necessarily means a delay, and we must, with this process of building up our domestic production, make a huge investment—a capital investment in stocks, an investment which has to be twice as great as our net capital investment in 1938. That is the volume for stocks alone. At the same time, of course, we have every other kind of capital investment in the form of houses, building new factories, more machinery and so on, for which in every line there is the most clamant demand.
  It is in the light of these circumstances, of attempting to do an enormous task in the minimum of time, that we must review what we have, in fact, achieved. Already by the end of last year goods of all kinds were reaching the market in very substantially increased quantities. The retail sales of household goods, for instance, had increased in the last quarter of last year by nearly 50 per cent. above the corresponding quarter of 1944. Taking some individual items, the increase in utility furniture was from 0.6 million units to 1.9 million units compared to a 6 million unit production before the war. The increase in perambulators, for which some hon. Member wanted to know the figures, was as follows: Before the war the monthly production was 50,000; in January, 1945, it was 38,700; in November, 1945, it was 62,200 a month. In some cases the figures were actually well above prewar figures. Take, for instance, electric irons and fires, which went up to a monthly overage in the fourth quarter of 1945 of 115,000 electric fires and 155,000 electric irons. I give these as quite fair examples of that type of goods.

  2203
  We are perhaps apt, in the presence of some particular continuing shortages, to overlook all these easements that have been achieved since the war ended. The general progress in the return of labour to civilian industries enables us to forecast a continuing improvement because, as I have said, the results in finished goods of that labour will not appear for some months to come in the shops in this country. Let me give the House some figures to show the order of magnitude of what may be termed our optimistic forecast. Here, I hope, I shall be answering the question of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South-port (Mr. R. S. Hudson) about the figures given by the Prime Minister and the Lord President. In 1939 we had about 18,000,000 workers actually employed over the whole field of production, distribution and services. That includes commerce, the distributive services, and everything else except the Forces. Of those, 1.3 million were working for the Services on the rearmament programme— that was at the time of heavy rearmament—and 1.1 million were engaged on exports of manufactures and minerals. The remainder, 15.6 million, were, therefore, engaged upon production and all the other common services.
  At the peak of our industrial mobilisation during the war, we had a total manpower of 22,250,000, or rather about 2,500,000 more than prewar. Out of that greater total, 17.5 million were in industry and all the other services I have mentioned, and 12.1 million, as against the 15.6 million prewar, were serving the home market and essential civilian supplies or civil defence or basic services, such as transport, public utilities, local government and so forth. Up to June, 1945, the total employed in industry had fallen by 16.3 millions but, as the number on munitions had also fallen, there still remained 12 million for the home market and in the basic services. Since that time 3⅓ million had come out of the Services and munitions by the end of last year, but at the same time some 600,000 had gone out of industry altogether old people, married women and so forth; while in the form of unemployed and Servicemen and women on leave and not working another 900,000 were not, in fact, employed. About half a million have
  2204
  gone on to the export programme, leaving 1.3 millions out of the 3⅓ million who had been added to the 12 million serving the home mark.t and basic services, and leaving us still 2.3 million short of the number so engaged in 1939. It is with that depleted number that we have to try to tackle the very much greater task that we have today than we had in 1939.
  I would like at this stage to remind the House that the problems of the conversion of industry are by no means simple—
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: May I interrupt? I do not even yet follow the arithmetic of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I understood him to say just now that there are today 13,300,000 people engaged in home civilian and export work compared with 15,600,000 before the war. How does that tally with what I understood the Lord President of the Council to say, that there were already as many people in home civilian production?
  Sir S. Cripps: I appreciate the difficulty, but if the right hon. Member will look at Table I of "Employment" in the Digest he will see the split up of the figure of 15 millions and that it depends on the amount in the distributive trades, commerce and finance and so forth, which differ very much as between the two periods. If one merely compares manufacturing trades, there is a difference of nearly one million in the distributive trades.
  I want to deal with the problem of con version of industry and to emphasise that that is by no means a simple problem. It was difficult enough in the changeover to war purposes when there was an over riding priority for that changeover. It. is much more difficult today when re conversion is only one of a number of priorities—housing is as big, or a greater priority. In engineering, reconversion only entails the finishing off of munitions con tracts which often have to be tailed off in order to maintain the nucleus of the labour force to go on to the new manufacture. Then there is the clearing of the old stores, partly finished manufactures, the retooling, equipment and retraining of the staff and workers. If all that can be accomplished, as I have seen it done in one case in six days, a very good job will have been done by industry. A very good job is being done in industry in re conversion today.

  2205
  Where there has been a closing down and a concentration of an industry, difficulties are much greater, and the recollection of a balanced labour force is indeed a major operation, bearing in mind that direction of labour is no longer either practicable or desirable. Often a factory may be held up for want of a particular type of skilled man while all the rest may be prepared and ready to go ahead. Take the case of cotton spinning again, because it is very difficult. In June, 1939, there were 139,000 operatives and by June, 1945, the number was below 114,000. Ever since then we have been trying to build up the labour force to cover the exceptional wastage of older persons who have been leaving the industry and some married women withdrawing when their husbands came home. We also had to try to increase the number of productive forces. This is not a mere question of numbers because, unless the force is balanced in all the many grades and skills, a mere numerical increase will not produce a greater result in production. During the war there has been practically no recruitment, and, therefore, no new training in skill in that industry. We have, as it were, a six years age gap in the skilled. workers of this industry. By the end of September, we had succeeded in increasing the force to between 118,000 and 119,000 persons. But conditions were such that, with all the alternatives offering in the Lancashire area, we could not persuade the people to go back into the mills. We have tried, at the request of the industry, to improve matters by getting out a better wage system, and that Mr. Justice Evershed's Committee has accomplished with skill and speed. There have been no results because the recommendations are still under consideration. It is of the greatest importance for the revival of the cotton industry that a final decision on these recommendations should be taken quickly. [An Hon. Member: "By whom?"] Taken by the industry. That is only a typical example of the sort of difficulty of readjustment that this country must overcome before a really marked increase in the supply of consumer goods can be brought about.
  By the end of this year we hope that, with the greatly diminished numbers in the Forces shown in the White Paper,
  2206
  and in the munitions industries, we shall be able to put rather more than another half a million people on export work so as to reach a volume of exports as great as, or slightly above, that of 1938, and also that we shall have 400,000 more than in 1939 serving the home market, which should give us the chance of greater supplies there as well. This larger labour force will have a great deal to do besides producing consumer goods. The housing programme, together with all the arrears of maintenance and continuing blitz repairs, especially to industrial buildings, which have hardly been started yet, will absorb a very large body of labour. Similarly, on the machinery side, a tremendous" volume of production and adaptation is required to re-establish our civilian industries and to start, where it is possible to do so, on their modernisation. The stocking up of the pipeline will also require a great deal of labour as also will our increased export trade, so that we cannot look to a very speedy return to prewar levels of consumer goods production. It must be a gradual process.
  Now let me turn to the question of exports. Our object is to secure that by the end of the year we shall have 50 per cent. more workers engaged on export, than we had in 1938. That will not be the end of what we have to do, but if we can accomplish that, it will certainly be a very satisfactory beginning. I am sure I need not explain to the House the necessity for those figures. During the war we parted with our overseas investments, and, in addition, we have incurred very large overseas indebtedness. Before the war, we had a balance of interest payments in our favour in the overseas accounts of£200 million sterling a year. That was equivalent to the work of some 800,000 men in this country, and represented the value of all the wheat, the meat, the cotton and the wool we imported into this country. Now the balance is the other way, so that, in addition to paying for all these things by exports, we must also export to pay our debts.
  In 1938, about 15 per cent. of all our manufactured products were exported, and a great deal of raw material, especially in the form of coal. Now there is no coal to export, so that, to balance our accounts, and maintain our pre-war standard of living, we must in future,

  2207
  export, on the average. 25 per cent. of all our manufactured goods. That is a formidable task, especially as we do not want to lower our own standards of supply in order to fulfil export orders; we want it to be additional. I agree wholeheartedly with what has been said by many speakers on both sides of the House, that we want to do all we can to encourage our own people by giving them the most that we can to use and enjoy, especially by way of consumer goods. That is our objective.
  Squadron - Leader Fleming: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman explain how it comes about that stocks of towellings, which are deteriorating in Manchester warehouses, are still being held up by his own Department, and not even allowed out coupon free?
  Sir S. Cripps: I will deal with matters of detail, if the hon. and gallant Member likes to put a Question to me. I think it is rather beside the general point.
  Our policy is to encourage exports to the maximum, where they are of goods not urgently required at home, limiting by licensing the export of goods in short supply at home to a mere trickle of free exports. I say "free exports," because in many classes of commodities, we are bound to send some minimum quantity abroad, to our Dominions and Colonies, or by allocation agreements to other countries, who have no other possible source of supply. In other words, we try to put the burden of paying for our essential imports where it will least affect or hurt our own people. I am sure there is a great deal of misconception on this point. I would, therefore, like to illustrate the policy by one or two figures. If we take our exports for January, 1946, 60 per cent, of them were on goods which are not ordinarily bought or sold in shops at all, and of the remaining 40 per cent., only half were types of goods to which any form of consumer rationing has been applied in this country. That is the only way one can compendiously describe the classification.
  In many cases we have, of course, set targets for industry of a percentage of production for export at which it should aim. It naturally pays us best to export high priced luxury articles if we can, goods that at the present time we cannot ourselves afford to use in our own
  2208
  market. I know that leads to some heartburning sometimes, when beautiful materials, for instance, are made for export, and are not for sale on the home market. We are bound to do it, because it gives us the highest conversion value, and enables us, in fact, to get more for the home market in the long run. It is the average of all those targets, which must reach that 25 percent. of our overall production of manufactured goods. In the make-up of these targets there is the greatest diversity. I will cite at random a few instances. These are targets for the first six months of 1946: Private cars, 50 per cent.; cycles and motor cycles, the same; electric cables, 30 per cent.; internal combustion engines, 65 per cent.; non-priority sports goods, 40 per cent.; photographic goods, 50 per cent., etc. None of these goods are those in vitally short supply in the sense that people cannot live without them.
  If we turn to textiles, furniture, boots and shoes and similar goods, the picture is completely different. Taking cotton and wool as the two textiles most widely affecting the clothing rationing position, the situation is as follows: In the case of wool the total export proportion for piece.goods is 13 per cent., and of worsted yarn 5 per cent. Of this, 28 per cent. the yarn exports, or 1.4 per cent of total production, is free. Fifteen per cent. of piece goods, or 1.9 per cent. of total production, is also free. So the House will observe the very smallest figures are, in fact, going for free export at all. So far as cotton is concerned, the export trade is based in terms of yarn, though in fact it goes in many other forms, piece goods, netting, etc. Of the yarn 25 per cent, is for export, and so far as yarn is concerned, there is no free export at all. As regards piece goods, 16 per cent. is going for the first quarter of this year, making not more than 3 to 4 per cent. of total production of cotton goods for free exports. These very small quantities of cotton goods for free export enable us just, and only just, to hang on to our most valuable markets by a tenuous thread. Even if we were to abandon them, and so diminish most seriously our hope of future trade, it would only make the present 75 per cent. of the home market into 79 per cent. for cotton goods, and that would not all be consumer goods, because there is a large industrial use, which has to be supplied as well.

  2209
  If we take boots, shoes and furniture, there is a mere minimum of boots and shoes exported—in the region" of I per cent.—and of furniture virtually nothing at all. We are at present importing furniture in order to try to ease the domestic situation. I give these figures in order that the people may understand that there is no hoard that can be drawn upon to increase these commodities for their consumption. There is only one source of improvement, that is, more production, and when that comes forward, as it will, gradually, we shall increase home consumption in step with a slight easing up on export. We have to do that, because, if we keep other countries waiting too long for our goods, we shall miss our "markets, and when we do get a surplus over home consumption, we shall not be able to dispose of it abroad, and so we shall not be able to balance our payments, or utilise our labour.
  I would like to correct what may be a wrong impression I think created by some statistics giver by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton) yesterday. I think his view of the adverse balance was too gloomy. He wrote down the average monthly exports for 1946 to£43 million. I think it is wise to discount the January figure by some amount. To make such a cut I think is quite unjustified and I hope this fact will be proved by the February figures when they come out. Those, of course, are the first two months of the year with which we are dealing. I think we ought to obtain an average of nearly£65 million a month in our recorded exports over the year. Against that, we can set an average figure of£100 million a month for retained imports, so that just taking those two figures, as the right hon. Gentleman did, there should not be an adverse balance of more than£35 million a month.
  Mr. Lyttelton: I was speaking only of the figures for December, January and February. Those were the only figures available.
  Sir S. Cripps: I am not criticising but the right hon. Gentleman did apply them to 1946 and say that would mean a deficit of£600 million a year. No other figure would give a£420 million deficit
  2210
  on the amount for me year compared with the 1938 deficit of£398 million, which would not be bad for visible exports. Where the real trouble comes, of course, is that the deficit was made up in 1938 by invisible exports, and those, as we all know, have very largely disappeared today. That is the task, so far as exports are concerned, that we have to discharge—to make good the invisible exports by visible exports today.
  A point has been raised about the trouble of directing labour. The right hon Member for Aldershot complained that he could not get labour in his engineering industry. I know that is quite a common complaint, but we must be careful to look at the facts of the situation. If we are to try to deliver all the orders that are on the order books of this country today, we shall certainly want a few extra millions of trained operatives. Already, the engineering industry is very much swollen over prewar figures. Before the war, leaving out the chemicals, explosives, and other industries in Group 1, there were 2,816,000. At the peak of war production there were 4,610,000, and today there are 3,280,000.We cannot expand indefinitely one particular industry and draw the workers away from every other industry in the country. We must maintain a balance, even if we have full order books. The hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) suggested that we should freely import foreign labour from everywhere. I do not really think he can realise the psychological difficulty this would cause in the country, the fear of unemployment after a short boom, which was witnessed before. There is not only that psychological difficulty, but the absolute impossibility of finding quarters for hundreds of thousands of foreign labourers. imported here from abroad at the present time. It is hard enough to get quarters for German prisoners. That, I am afraid, is a suggestion which would be quite impossible.
  We were asked what we were doing about these difficult industries. Well, the position is that we are having a special inquiry into those industries where difficulties of recruiting are dependent upon the conditions in the industry, to see whether something cannot be done to improve rapidly those conditions—even

  2211
  ventilation it may be or lack of mechanism, as in the foundries—so as to make them more attractive and therefore better able to draw labour into them.
  There are two main points with which I want to deal. First, I have been asked, "How are you going to "carry out your plan?" I was delighted with the general measure of agreement in the House that it was right and proper that we should plan and, having a plan, that we should try to carry out the plan. I was asked how it can be done. That, of course, is a very critical and crucial point. No country in the world, so far as I know, has yet succeeded in carrying through a planned economy without compulsion of labour'. Our objective is to carry through a planned economy without compulsion' of labour. The general idea is that we should use a number of controls, in order to guide production into the necessary channels, according to the plan which we have formulated. The principal controls will be financial, including price control and taxation, materials control, building control, machinery and exports control, those have been in operation during the war, and certainly, as long as there are scarcities to be distributed, those, controls will serve to persuade production into the right and most useful lines. I have not time to go through the details of how each of them will operate, but those controls, we believe, will give an approximation, and it is no good doing any more today because no plan can be any more than an approximation. The statistics do not exist yet. They have to be collected in forthcoming years.
  Over and above that, there is the question of persuasion of labour through employment exchanges, through giving priorities to this or that industry, which does enable us, to a certain extent, to lead labour into the places where it is most urgently required It will be seen that without any wages policy beyond that which we have always followed, the policy of using the democratic method of settlement between the trade union and the employer—assisted by wages councils in industries where that system has not operated properly—will be carried on until such time as we find it is necessary, if it becomes necessary to change it for something better. Our present policy is that it should continue.
  I come to the final stage of the argument as to how we are to get the im-
  2212
  proved production that we so urgently need. As the hon. Member for Edgbaston (Sir P? Bennett), in what I might say was a very, remarkable and enlightening speech yesterday, told us, many of our present difficulties-—and I agree with him completely—are the inevitable sequel to the greatest war in history. They are part of the bitter price.that. we still have to.pay for the victory that we, won They Will pass as we settle down again to the economy of peace, and they will become part of the history of the past, but we must ask ourselves whether, merely by this lapse of time, we shall find ourselves at the end of all our difficulties.
  A great deal, has been said on the question of the, present rate, of output per man hour, or man week or man year, however one likes to express it, and that is a matter upon. which it is extremely difficult to speak. with any certainty at all, In some factories, it is undoubtedly much down on the prewar figure. Perhaps, 6o to 70 per cent, of the prewar figure is hot an exaggerated instance in particular cases. But what is impossible to ascertain is how much of that is due to the lack of balance in the labour force, to the untrained labour that comes in, to the conditions of the change over, to the waiting time and to the hundred and one other factors which influence rates of production in the time of conversion. Undoubtedly, a large part of it is due to these causes. Civilian industry has not got back into the rhythm that it had in 1938. Nor has it such a continuous large scale character that marked war production in the later years of the war, but not in the beginning.
  We must not, therefore, jump to the hasty conclusion that all, or even a large part, of this loss of man hours is necessarily due to slackness. Anyone who has had to do with the change over of production in a factory knows only too well how long it may take to settle down to the new production, especially when the working out of new piece rates is entailed in all that new production. I have often been bitterly disappointed, as Minister of Aircraft Production, when new types have been introduced, at the lack of speed with which they came forward, because the piece rates on them could not be fixed. In fact, taking such figures as are available for October and November last year, and comparing them with June and July, there is shown to be a slight tendency

  2213
  throughout a great many industries for a small increase in the productivity of labour, and certainly, these figures do not lend any weight to: the suggestion that there has been a falling off since the end of the war.
  While, therefore, 1 agree that we want to encourage a new spirit of endeavour in industry, I believe that a great deal can still be done by smoothing the process of change over and very large. Improvements will naturally take place as we settle down to the continuity of peacetime production.Therefore, do. not let us blame ourselves or discourage others be cause we have hot-accomplished the impossible. Various hon. Members have sought to describe the existing situation in terms either of pessimism or optimism I certainly am an unrepentant optimist, subject to the one proviso that we frankly face our difficulties and take the necessary steps to overcome-them. We need not concern ourselves unduly, I think with the question of the redistribution of wealth or purchasing power within our own country: That we can debate and decide amongst ourselves, as, for instance, the amount we are prepared to redistribute under social insurance Schemes and so forth. That is" all a matter of our internal economy.
  What we must guard against and guard against at all costs, is.a foreign indebtedness; that we cannot discharge-or an inability to import essential foodstuffs and commodities from abroad, without which we can.neither-live nor work. We can measure our own difficulties by the size of our adverse balance. Our present expenditure abroad, is partly, due to our overseas military: commitments, which will, we hope, decline considerably next year, below that stated in the White Paper, which only takes us to December, 1946 for the figures there given.air transitional figures which relate to the: present world conditions. We hope that that condition will improve and, with the improvement, that the need for overseas: expenditure on the Forces will fall very Considerably. Leaving out that extra factor, there is still a very large leeway to be made up which is measured by the need for exports to be increased by somewhere between 50 and 75 per cent by volume, over the prewar figure. That we have to provide by our
  2214
  production in addition to all our extra home needs and, we hope, the swelling volume of consumer commodities for our own people and the general maintenance of our domestic standards. And how are we to do it? Only by the most tremendous and sustained productive effort. Unless and until we make that effort, we cannot rehabilitate our country, maintain our standards and provide the necessary exports. One or other of those will have to go short, and they are all equally critical and vital.
  We shall get a breathing, space if we get dollar loans from America and Canada which will enable us, for two or three years, to enjoy a better standard, provided that during those years we step up our production. How are we to step up our production? Not by working long hours, which his wholly uneconomic, or by reducing wages, which certainly does not increase production. The first thing necessary is to make full use of all the normal working hours available today. There must be no slacking by managements or employees, and no absenteeism by either. That would help, but it is not nearly enough. We shall have the advantage—and it is a very great advantage—over the prewar position that we will not tolerate unemployment. For that reason, we are spending so much on the capital works in development areas where unemployment was and is again appearing. We shall not be content until we have provided employment for all the workers in those areas. So far, we have got about half way in the planning of the necessary factory space. That would give us, if we succeed, at least a million man years; extra over prewar figures-rather more than the amount that we have lost by way of our foreign investments, which was.800,000.
  Next comes the problem of. making each man hour more productive That entails: more organisation, better layout, more modern buildings and conditions of work, up-to-date methods and machinery, efficient research and development, good personnel management and all the other factors that create the best conditions in which the men and women of this country can give of then best. That is a team job, to which every one must contribute. As regards the rest of the industries, other than those like the coal industry which are being dealt with by special means, we are proceeding by the

  2215
  technique of working parties, or similar bodies, which can diagnose the needs and suggest the remedies. Once those are ascertained it will be up to employers, employees and the Government to see that, somehow or other, those needs are met and the necessary measures are carried through to modernise and rehabilitate our industries That will need flexibility of mind on all sides. Employers and employees must equally be prepared to share in the responsibility and to adapt themselves to the necessities of the new economic and psychological situation that has arisen.
  The industries of this country are not a mass of inefficiency. I know that from my own wartime experience. Many of them have got out of date. Some were indeed out of date before the war, and many more have suffered from the sheer inability during the last six years to make those advances that have been so freely made in some other countries which have not suffered as we have In any event, we shall all agree on this, that in the task that confronts us, nothing but the highest degree of efficiency throughout all our industries will be good enough to enable us to succeed. It does need a quick and spectacular increase in production per man year, and we have to be prepared to use every means to attain it, because upon our capacity to accomplish this increase the whole future of our country depends.
  While we are carrying out this work—the production that will be, necessary to improve the productivity of our industries, and this new capitalisation of British industry—we must recognise that it will not be possible at the same time to have a spectacular increase in consumer goods. If only we can be patient for a little longer, while this boosting up of our industrial production is get under way, we shall reap a really great benefit in a year or two in increased standards of supplies. I know how hard that request must seem, especially to the housewives of this country, who today are living often in grave discomfort. Nevertheless, it is vital for our future. I have been accused of every kind of harshness and austerity. It is only because of my passionate desire to see better and more suitable standards for our people at the earliest possible moment that I feel it is wrong to concentrate at the present time only upon the increased flow of consumer
  2216
  goods for consumption. We as a national ways react best to hard circumstances and tough times. The drive and energy of the years after Dunkirk were the reaction of the British people to great dangers and impossible difficulties. Who, in the face of that historic achievement, could feel depressed or pessimistic about our future? Let us adopt the motto of the Royal Air Force "Per Ardua ad Astra "—through hard work to prosperity. We all know what the fact is. We are up against a tremendously tough situation. But we know equally well that, once the British people realise that fact, they will respond, whatever their class and whatever their job. They will prove once again to the world that we are no effete democracy, but a vigorous, live. people determined to work our way through the difficulties of peace, as we fought our way through the difficulties of war.
  I would ask every Member of this House to make it his or her duty to tell the people the facts of the situation—the facts as to which we are all agreed here tonight—and to give them that sense of urgency and high endeavour which will bring them victorious out of all their difficulties, relying upon their own skill, ingenuity and devotion which are as widespread through our country today as ever in her long history. If we in this House can approach the problem in that spirit, and give to the people that leadership and inspiration, we shall not only enhance the traditions of this great Parliament, but we shall also earn the gratitude of our constituents.
  Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put and agreed to.

  SUPPLIES AND SERVICES (TRANSITIONAL POWERS)
  9.16 p.m.
  John MellorSir: I beg to move,
  "That the Order in Council, dated 20th December, 1945, with respect to Defence Regulations relating to the Control of Employment and Conditions of Employment (S.R. amp; O., 1945. No. 1620), a copy of which Order was presented on 22nd January, be annulled."
  The Order which this Motion seeks to annul is that which, by virtue of the Supplies and Services (Transitional

  2217
  Powers) Act, 1945, extends for a period of the next five years the power given to the Minister of Labour to control employment under certain regulations which have been operative during a large part of the war. I shall have to make particular reference to Regulations 58A and 58A. I must ask the House to refresh its memory as to the power which these regulations give to the Minister of Labour. Regulation 58A begins as follows, leaving out the unnecessary words:
  " The Minister of Labour…or any National Service Officer may direct any person in Great Britain to perform such services in the United Kingdom or in any British ship…as may be specified…being services which that person is, in the opinion of the Minister or Officer, capable of performing."
  That is a terrific power. Although the same power has been held by the Minister of Labour war, it is far beyond what has hitherto been exercised. It is a power which authorises the requisition of labour on a totalitarian scale. Indeed, it is literally true to say that it empowers the Minister of Labour to fasten this requisition heavily upon the necks of the British people for the next five years. There is a further point. It proceeds:
  " Any services required by a direction given under this Regulation to be performed shall be performed under such terms as to remuneration and conditions of service as to the Minister or a National Service Officer may…direct."
  There is the one redeeming proviso that "regard shall be had to "…it puts it no higher than that—and then there is a long paragraph, which I may briefly summarise as "the rate for the job." It seems to be a most extraordinary demand for the Government to make upon Parliament, that these powers should be continued for the next five years. They are enforceable under severe penalties…two years' imprisonment or a fine of£500. I pass over a variety of other powers, themselves of quite a drastic character but, which, compared with that which I have cited, seem almost trivial. They include among others, the power to require people to register particulars about themselves, the usual power of snooping, including, in particular, entry and inspection of premises, the powers of the Essential Work Order to freeze men in their jobs. Then I come to the provisions of Regulation 58AA. That provides that the Minister—
  2218
  " may by order make provision…for prohibiting, subject to the provisions of the order, a strike or lock-out in connection with any trade dispute."
  It seems to be a most astonishing thing, at a time when hon. Members on the Government side are getting so excited about repealing the Trade Unions and Trade Disputes Act, that they should now acquiesce in permitting the Government to continue to have available powers which are infinitely greater than anything the Trade Unions and Trade Disputes Act ever gave. Surely, if ever there was a case of straining at the gnat and swallowing the camel, it is this.
  In his speech yesterday the Prime Minister made this observation:
  " We are faced with a shortage of manpower. We must see to it that it is used to the best advantage, and that means a changed attitude of mind."
  When I heard the right hon. Gentleman make that observation I felt a momentary apprehension. I wondered, "Does the right hon. Gentleman mean a changed attitude of mind to democratic freedom?" I listened carefully to what he said, and I found some reassurance in the conclusion of his speech, when he used these words:
  "We can show that.this old country of ours, with our methods…the methods of a free democracy, can produce results."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1946; Vol. 419. c. 1969 and 1972.]
  If the Prime Minister, who, presumably, reflects the views of the Government as a whole, contemplates that we are going to win through by the methods of a free democracy, for what are these totalitarian powers wanted? What situation do the Government contemplate in which these powers can possibly be necessary? I understood from the speech of the Lord President of the Council this afternoon that he took an optimistic view of the future, and the President of the Board o' Trade confirmed that, and said that he too took an optimistic view. If the Government are optimistic, why are they proposing to provide powers which, in any democratic country, could only conceivably be required or exercised in a most dire and terrible situation?
  Do the Government contemplate such a situation in the next five years? If so, let them tell us so, instead of beguiling us with an optimistic forecast. Surely, assuming that the Government's

  2219
  declarations of optimism are genuine, the Minister of Labour can be satisfied with far less power, and with power for a shorter period. If this Order is not annulled before next Sunday, it will be valid for the next five years from 10th December last, because there will be no opportunity, as far as I can see—at any rate, no automatic opportunity—of review by this House. This House will have no way of direct challenge except, presumably, by putting down a Vote of no confidence in the Government. Why cannot the Minister of Labour say what he really wants and what powers he really thinks will be necessary in the next few years?
  Mr. Speaker: This matter of the period of five years cannot be argued, because it has been passed in an Act of Parliament. Parliament has decided upon this five years' limit, and, therefore, I cannot allow argument about it now.
  Sir J. Mellor.I am obliged, Mr. Speaker, for your observation. I ask the Minister of Labour then if he is not pre pared to carry on for the next five years with far less power than is provided in this Order. That is a simple question. I cannot believe that he or his Parliamentary Secretary will say that he really needs these powers. It will be wrong for this House to authorise the Minister of Labour to exercise powers far beyond what he can claim to need within measurable time. I shall await with the greatest possible interest what he has to say upon this Order. I shall await it with the greatest curiosity. 1 propose now to conclude, because 1 hope that, not withstanding what occurred last night, I shall have the opportunity after the Minister has spoken of exercising a mover's right to reply—
  Mr. Speaker: I may as well say at once that there is no such thing as a right of reply. I must point out straight away that an hon. Member who moves a Resolution may make a second speech, but there is no such thing as a right of reply.
  Sir J. Mellor: Of course, Mr. Speaker, I accept that explanation. I conclude with a quotation from Trevelyan's "History of England," which refers to the period about 1350. It is as follows:
  " An endeavour was made to keep clown wages and prices by law, to limit the mobility of the free labourer in search of highly paid employment.'
  2220
  That refers, as 1 say, to 1350. It refers to the period immediately following the Black Death, when there was a terrible situation throughout this country, and the whole economic situation was upset by a shortage of labour. Are we, I ask, to give the Minister power which will enable him to be so reactionary as to take this country back to the days following the Black Death?
  9.31 p.m.
  Major Boyd-Carpenter: I beg to second the Motion.
  Previous Motions which have been moved from this side of the House on the subject of these regulations, have, with one significant exception, been met by the Government, not by a reasoned defence of the power which it has been sought to take, but rather by the measured tramp of their legions into the Lobby. The one significant exception was on 18th December, when the Home Secretary, whom 1 am glad to see on the Front Bench opposite accepted a Motion from this side of the House. I would commend his action to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour, who I understand is to reply tonight. I would remind him that only a strong Minister is able to admit that he has been wrong and to accept a limitation of powers for which he has asked. [Laughter.] As that observation appears to evoke a certain degree of merriment on the part of the Home Secretary, 1would venture to remind him that, in acknowledging the error, he made an admission that the powers which he had taken a month previously were excessive.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir J. Mellor) has referred to the prolongation, under the Statutory Rules and Orders procedure, of Defence Regulation 58A. That being the regulation under which all labour in the country was directed during the war, it is, without exception, the most onerous of the restrictions which were imposed during the emergency of wartime. For that very reason it is surely the regulation of all which requires the strongest case to justify its continuation into the days of peace. I am certain that hon. Members opposite will agree that the requisitioning of labour is infinitely more serious even than the requisitioning of property.
  It is perhaps a trifle ironical that the Act under which these powers are exer-

  2221
  cised, the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act, 1945, was commended to this House by the Lord President of the Council with the observation that it was an Act in favour of liberty. In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) the Lord President of the Council said:
  "Let not the hon. Gentleman be depressed—becouse liberty marches on. We have this Bill because liberty marches on. This Bill is in the true cause of liberty."․[Official Report, 9th October, 1945; Vol. 414, c. 170.]
  I am certain that so sincere a person, as the Lord President of the Council would not have recommended the Bill to the House had he contemplated it would be, used to continue conscription of labour in peacetime. I understood hon. Members opposite agreed that the most onerous limitation of the war was the conscription of all labour in the United Kingdom. In the difficult circumstances of today, I would concede that some interim control of labour may be desirable, but what the House is faced with is not an acceptance of that proposition, but, as the hon. Baronet said, the perpetuation for five years of the full wartime restrictions and the full wartime control of every person in the United Kingdom. I would remind the House and the Parliamentary Secretary that this full control is not legally a necessity. Under Section 3 (1), of the Act which the House passed last autumn, and under which this regulation is made, it is possible to vary the regulation, and had the Minister of Labour been prepared to accept a limitation, for example, upon the age of the labour concerned, it would have been possible for him to have made that modification in the regulation.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Ness Edwards): Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman has forgotten Regulation 1557, which was discussed the other evening.
  Major Boyd-Carpenter: Whether I recollect it with the vividness with which it is imprinted on the Parliamentary Secretary's memory 0r not, I should be ruled out of order if I were to attempt to discuss Regulation 1557 upon a Motion to annul Regulation 1620, and with due respect for the diversionary tactical skill of the Parliamentary Secretary, I would submit that he is not justified in arguing that he is entitled to take these powers
  2222
  under Regulation 1620 because of the existence of some other Regulation. Heis tied, as I am tied, to the Statutory Rule and Order before the House. It is the fact that, although under Section 3 (1) of the Act of last year, he could have modified the Regulation in carrying it on, he has not seen fit to do so, save to apply its purposes, as he must do under the Act, to the new peacetime purposes, and, therefore, the regulation with which the House is concerned is the full regulation carried out in time of peace, with a possible expectation of life of five years. With the greatest respect to the Parliamentary Secretary, I say that that is entirely contrary to what the Prime Minister told us yesterday. The Prime Minister said:
  We have relaxed a great number of controls and, in particular, we are not directing labour except in certain instances. Over the whole field of labour there has been a great relaxation of controls. I do not believe anybody suggests that the Government should endeavour to control labour in exactly the same way as it was controlled in the war, but we can make our forecasts and guide, as far as we can, industry into the channels which are most necessary in the national interest."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1946; Vol. 419. c. 1964.]
  In face of that, as I understand it, the Parliamentary Secretary comes to the House to seek its support for precisely the same powers of direction of labour as the Government had during the war. I have no doubt the House will find it somewhat stimulating to observe the Parliamentary Secretary's attempt, if it be made, as I hope it will be, to resolve that apparent divergence. As the Parliamentary Secretary is aware, these wartime controls simply will not work. I invite his attention to one small aspect of the matter with which, if not he, then at any rate his Department, is familiar. In the case of one of the subordinate Orders made under Regulation 58A, and which, of course, stands or falls with Regulation 58A—the Emergency Powers (Defence) (Essential Work) (Trawler Fishing) Order, 1943—submissions have been made to the Department by all the major organisations in the industry to tell the Minister that it will not work.
  I have in my hand a copy of the memorandum which has been submitted not only by (the British Trawlers Federation, but by the Hull Fishing Vessels Owners Association and the Aberdeen Steam Fishing Vessels Owners Associa-

  2223
  tion. The memorandum submitted has in its two opening paragraphs the assertion that the express purpose for which these schemes were originally enacted no longer holds good; and that they are extremely unpopular with both owners and fishermen alike. The Parliamentary Secretary must recognise that in circumstances like these, for these reasons among many, these wartime controls will not work. That is a very short commentary on Regulation 58A.
  As the House is aware, Statutory Rule, and Order No. 1620, which perpetuates that Regulation, perpetuates a great many others. Indeed, one of-the quarrels that I, and many of my Friends, have with this method of dealing with the; law is that a vast number of these. Defence Regulations are simply lumped together, and the House has no option but to debate them all en bloc. There is, of course, the regulation to which the hon. Baronet who moved the Motion referred—Regulation 58AA. This is the. regulation which gives to the Minister, the power to prohibit all strikes and lockouts. I express the hope that this regulation is compatible with the sensitive conscience of the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary, and that no notional stigma arises from it. It is absolute nonsense for the Government to come forward arid discuss at great length the removal of a prohibition of a. very limited kind, of strike—the political strike—and, at the same time, for power to prohibit all strikes to be retained by the Government.
  I take, almost at random from the very considerable number of regulations which it is sought to perpetuate, Regulation 58AAA. This gives to the Minister of Labour the power to retain in the Civil Service any person under 60 years of age; The Minister of> Labour, when it is pointed out to him in this House that various industries or activities are' short of labour, is very free with the advice that the industries concerned should make their condition s of service so attractive as to attract labour by voluntary means. Be that' so, but may not the right hon. Gentleman accept this own advice? If it is the proper way, as I am inclined to think, to attract or retain labour in industry by making conditions suitable, why should not that; principle be applied to the Civil Service—a service which for all its great value is one which most hon. Members in this
  2224
  House anticipate and hope to see reduced in its total numbers? Why is it necessary to keep this power to retain in the Civil Service all persons, at the absolute discretion of the Minister of Labour?
  There is, finally, Regulation 808 which enables the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour to order any man or woman in the Kingdom to attend a medical examination, at anyplace where the Minister of Labour may direct. Surely, under conditions of peace, that is something of an intrusion upon the liberty of the individual—that liberty of the individual for which that much quoted document, "Let us: Face the Future," puts forward the plea that peacetime freedom should be restored to the individual.
  I ask hon. Members opposite to face this fact. By reason of the procedure which the Government have seen fit to adopt; the only method which hon. Members on this side of the House can take, to disagree with some of the provisions of the Order, is to put down this Motion, because we are not permitted by the Rules of Order to propose any Amendment. None the less I would be open, were this Motion carried for the Government to re-introduce the unobjectionable arid leave out the objectionable parts. If hon. Members opposite by reason of the attitude adopted by the Government or for any other reason think it necessary in the Division Lobby to vote against this Motion,, they will find, whether they like it or not, that they have gone on record for all time as voting to perpetuate in peacetime the full Scale direction of labour. If hon. Members on this side of the House were to see fit to adopt the controversial.methods of Mr. Victor Gollancz and to record in detail the votes registered; I hazard to suggest that the reminiscence of that particular fact might not fee convenient to hon Members on a" subsequent occasion.
  I hope that we shall not be met with the perennial observation from the Front Bench opposite that though the powers proposed to be taken are vast, the exercise of them will be limited. There are two insuperable objections to that argument. The first is that the Government overlook the fact that although powerful, they are not eternal, and that the powers they are taking now for five years may fall to be wielded by other hands than their own. They might be wielded by the hon. Member for West Fife

  2225
  (Mr. Gallacher), and at is no answer whatsoever: in pleading for legislative power to say, "We are; reasonable and charming and conciliatory people and, of course, we have not the remotest, intention of doing what: we are taking powers to do," because the answer to it might be that the. Government will, not have the authority and decision at the relevant time. There is a second and; even more powerful objection, and that is that the people of this country, regard less of party, are not prepared to exercise and enjoy their liberty, as an act of grace from right hon. Gentlemen opposite;: I would say to them with great respect that if it be necessary for the Government to introduce whole-hogging direction of labour in order to introduce whole- hogging Socialism, surely it would be more intellectually honest to say so and to admit that they 'had torn up the Red Flag, in order, to use the shreds as red tape to tie up the limbs of the British people.
  9.50 p.m.
  Squadron-Leader Hollis: I think my hon. Friends have rendered a great public service in calling attention to this Order, for it does seem to me that we are here face to face with a situation that must surely be quite unique in human history. Both my hon. Friends very properly called attention to the extraordinary paradox that, at this very moment, when hon. Members opposite are so loudly congratulating themselves on repealing the Act of 1927, they should be controlling that right to strike in a way that the Act of 1927 never envisaged, and interfering with the traditional privileges of labour in a fashion undreamt of even in the palmiest days of Oddenino's. Only last week the learned Attorney-General spoke of the right of the labourer to withhold his labour as inalienable. Distinguished lawyers always use words with exactitude, and "inalienable" therefore presumably means inalienable. Now what we have here is an Order to alienate the right to withdraw your labour. Therefore whatever other hon. and right hon. Members opposite may be going to do we look forward to welcoming the learned Attorney-General with us in the Division Lobby before the evening is out.
  When we were on a Prayer last week I asked the Parliamentary Secretary to
  2226
  the Board 0f trade if he could give me an example of any powers which would be ultra vires by the order that we were then discussing if the President of the Board of Trade were to exercise them. I was not so fortunate as to receive a reply when the Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Trade answered. I do very much hope that the Parliamentary Secretary today will be able to give me a reply to this question of what powers are ultra vires for we are, I say, in a situation unique in history. I shall be very gratified if any hon. Member can give me a parallel in history in this respect. Only an hour or so ago this House was delighted with a most moving and able speech from the President of the Board of Trade who told us that he hoped that this Government would succeed in doing something which had never previously been done in human history—build a planned economy without compulsion of labour. I am very sensible that the Parliamentary Secretary will probably tell us that these are powers to which the Government think it necessary to lay their claim but which he hopes they will never be called upon to exercise. I accept the sincerity of hon. Members opposite when they argue that way, as I accept my hon. Friend's argument that this is an unsatisfactory answer. What seems to me entirely unique in history is that the Government on one and the same night should be framing a policy in one direction and at the same time setting forth a whole set of regulations on the assumption that that policy is very likely to break down. I cannot imagine anything more likely to produce among the people of this country that sense of discouragement and dismay at the Government's policy against which right hon. Members during the last two days have been very rightly warning us. My hon. Friends have stressed the dangers to the liberty of the individual citizen. That is indeed a very proper and very important warning. Taking the Orders altogether, there seems to be another point that we have to bear in mind.
  It is that we have to debate these Orders one by one. One day we have one Minister here, and another day we. have another. One day the powers are being taken by the President of the Board of Trade, and another day the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade wants to hand them over to the Minister of

  2227
  Supply, although that Minister is somewhat more skilful in evading these catches, and does not so easily fall into the trap. Today, we have here the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour. If we take all these Orders together—
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. and gallant Member cannot deal with all the Orders; he must deal with the one Order which is before the House.
  Squadron-Leader Hollis: We are faced not with a plan, but with a variety of plans. We are faced with a most danger ous form of competition, in which the throats to be cut are those of the Minister's own colleagues.
  9.56 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Roberts: We are asked tonight to ratify an Order which deals with many different matters. This Order cannot be amended; it must be passed or rejected, and if some of us are forced to vote against certain matters with which it deals then the blame lies with those who, in the old phraseology, have been guilty of "tacking." I am not prepared to vote in favour of the maintenance of a wholesale power of direction on the part of the Minister of Labour for a period of five years. I was interested to notice the merriment which greeted a reference to the Statute of Labourers. It was illustrative of the levity of thought which is apt to characterise advanced circles. Let me point out to those who were so easily amused, that the Statute of Labourers was merely negative in character, whereas the power given here is positive, and is directed not to capilitists but to individualists.
  Many of us who were in the Services during the first of the two great wars were often asked to define the powers which the Service had over the individual. I understood that they were entirely unlimited, with one rather impolite exception, and I should say that the powers given to the Minister under this Regulation are as extensive. Obviously, they are not in the least likely to be used. It has been said by my party that we want to get rid of control, and the reply has ben, "Well you cannot do that; you are talking nonsense; we must have some control." Our rejoinder has been, "We do not
  2228
  trust you, because we feel that in the guise of necessary and temporary control you are trying to maintain a tyrannical power over the individual, without which your Socialist ideas will not work."
  On that point, we have had the assurance the other day from the President of the Board of Trade that he is hoping to have a planned economy which may be said to mean a Socialist State, without any compulsion of labour—a most important Ministerial announcement—and there is only one ground, therefore, for passing a regulation such as this.
  During the time of war, power must be given to the Executive, and no one could complain of plenary powers of this kind. No one would complain now if the evidence was that the emergency would last five years, but the evidence which we gather from the Ministerial side is in exactly the opposite direction. One of the great problems overhanging us from the war years is the total shortage of houses, and I suppose it may be said that these powers are necessary to direct people, if need be, to the necessary work of building houses, but we have the advantage of Cabinet guidance on that point. The Cabinet last autumn, applied their minds to the problem of letting furnished dwellings, and they brought before us a Measure. The Minister of Health, introducing it, pointed out that that Measure was for two years only, and gave us, as his considered judgment, the view that within two years from then the worst of the housing shortage would be over. There, we got a definite indication by a Minister that, in his judgment, this emergency may be said to be of two years' duration only.
  I say to the Minister and to the followers of the Government that, if they vote for a power like this for a period greatly in excess of the period decided by the Cabinet, they are laying themselves open to a very serious suspicion that they love tyranny and dictation for the sake of it. I would remind hon. Members opposite of one of their own cherished beliefs, though they may not like to hear it. It was that the one thing that Labour would not tolerate was conscription of labour. It is very convenient to forget it now, when we are asked to decide that, for five years, labour shall be under the complete and despotic control of the Minister.
  10.4 p.m
  Mr. Marlowe: It may surprise you, Mr. Speaker, to learn that, if he so wishes; the Minister of Labour may send you off; for medical examination. Those of us who have experienced the indignities, associated with such an examination do not wish that such; an unhappy event, should come to you Sir, but this is what, is. being attempted by this Regulation. You may have noticed, Mr. Speaker, that a moment ago, the Lord President of. the Council looked in for a little while; he sat down next to the Parliamentary Secretary and left again. I would suppose that the hon; Gentleman sent him off to the doctor, and I only hope, and feel compelled to believe, that he will remember effect of this regulation when, he is asked to cough. What else is attempted by this Regulation' now before us? The regulation takes power, which is quite incomprehensible to us, to provide a; privileged class of; wet can teens. I should' be the last to object to the provisions of wet canteens, but it is a remarkable thing that that power is only taken on behalf of workers who are directed by right hon. Gentlemen opposite. I would not complain at all if these wet canteens were to be provided for all of us, but they are to be given to this privileged class.
  The third point, to which I would refer is the extraordinary argument we have to face in relation to the Regulation dealing with trade disputes. What was the "argument the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General put before the House in regard to the: Trade Disputes Act? I will only refer to it shortly -for the purpose of contrasting it with this Regulation. He: said, "You cannot legislate against a.great, upsurge of the people," yet by this very, regulation that is what the Minister's right hon. Friend is trying to do They are sitting in apparent amity beside. each other, but will have to argue it out between themselves when they get outride. We know that hon. Gentlemen who support the Minister will, in. due course, come trooping in and will riot have known what has; gone on in this Debate.— [Laughter.]—Hon. Gentlemen opposite may laugh, but we have had, experience of hon. Members coming into the Chamber at the- moment they are expected. We: know, that they will come in, and I have no doubt that on this
  2230
  matter we shall be defeated. Let.me remind hon. Members opposite that we are never 1 ashamed to be defeated in: the defence of the people.
  10.6 p.m
  Mr. Maclay: When I began to study the Motion under discussion I thought I was hot doing too badly because although I am conscious of being far from a learned Member of this House, by hard work I had discovered how to get access to Defence Regulations. I had a Working acquaintance with the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act and the Emergency Powers Defence Act and I thought I ought to be able to devote a good deal of time to the Order itself. On studying it I found there were eight different Defence: Regulations involved, but I never got past the first one because I found that the subject matter of Defence Regulation 58A was the Control of Employment.
  At this point, moreover, I found my self deplorably ignorant because Control of Employment suggested to me the Essential Work Order and I asked half a dozen hon. Members, not only, on this side of the House but on that, side, if they, could tell me precisely what, the Essential Work Order was. I found that not one person I asked could tell me whether 58A was the Essential Work Order or not Of course, all of us know what the Essential Work Order does but no one could tell me what it is So I went to the fountain head, telephoned to the office of the Parliamentary Secretary, and discovered the facts. I wonder if any lion., Member opposite could answer the question whether the Defence Regulation we are discussing is, in effect, the Essential Work Order, or the father or grandfather of it. In point of fact, I found in the long run that the Essential Work Order springs from paragraph (4A) of Regulation 58A, which we are discussing tonight. One had then to get hold.of the Essential Work Order, and that was a job. I commend it to hon. Members opposite before they go back; to their constituencies, because I hope they are going to explain to their constituents just what they have done for the country this week.
  The detailed point to which I wish to come is that it is common talk that the Essential Work Order is likely to

  2231
  come off in certain industries, perhaps all industries, before very long, and that is an event awaited with great enthusiasm by practically everybody in the country. No doubt in due course, if rumour is correct, and the Essential Work Order is removed, everyone will say, "What a wonderful Government we have. They have got rid of this deplorable control which hon. Members of the Opposition side argued would continue if a Socialist Government was elected. The Essential Work Order has gone; they were talking baloney." But what is the position? Most of us agree that certain controls are still necessary. No one can be sure whether the right moment to take them off is one, two, three or four years hence, and in any case it would be out of order to discuss that this evening. But if the Essential Work Order is removed, everybody in the country will think they have finished with it for keeps, or, at least, that before it can be introduced again this House, in full Session, will have ample opportunity to discuss it, to get the Government to give their reasons for imposing it, and a chance will be given to Members of every Party, including those on the opposite side of the House, of seeing why this is being done.
  I may have got this wrong. As 1 say, I am a deplorably unlearned gentleman, so it was necessary to go back to the fountain head of knowledge, at least the father, if not the grandfather, of the Essential Work Order, paragraph (4A) of Regulation 58A to see what would happen, to see what powers the Government would get if the Order we are discussing tonight is not annulled. It says:
  " The Minister may, by order, make provision…"
  I will not quote any further. That is the beginning of the whole Section. As I understand it the words "by order," which I have quoted, do not mean any type of order which can be argued in this House; they mean an executive order by the Minister. As I understand the position the Essential Work Order can be removed; the Government can, without discussion on the floor of this House or anywhere else, Without Members of this House having a chance to argue against it, clap the whole thing on again. I wonder if I am right; I see there is anxious consultation proceeding on the Treasury Bench. I will not detain the House any longer, because I think I have
  2232
  made a point which is causing the non. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary considerable worry. He has suddenly realised what a monstrous thing he is being made to do by his colleagues. I cannot imagine him doing a monstrous thing on his own account.
  I wish to finish with a most serious exhortation to hon. Members opposite, unless they intend to support those of us who are backing this Motion tonight When you go back to your constituencies, if you have allowed this Order in Council to go through—
  Mr. Speaker: I am not allowing anything. The hon. Member said "You," which means me.
  Mr. Maclay: I apologise, Mr. Speaker. If hon. Members go into the wrong Lobby this evening, will they explain to their constituents that they have allowed the Government the right for five years without question to clap on the Essential Work Order again without the slightest warning to the country or opportunity for discussion in this House?
  One final point. Hon. Members opposite may feel that they are perfectly happy to leave all this to their admirable Front Bench. They do not watch such detailed questions. They do not want to go to the trouble of looking up these wretched things. It is a lot of work, I can assure them. I do beseech them to remember that they are returned as representatives of a whole constituency. They represent not only the majority in that constituency who put them into this House, but also the minority who voted for the other fellow. They must be prepared to do the work which hon. Members on this side are doing on the question of these Orders; that is, to do what they can to make certain that the interests of all their con stituents are fully protected.
  Sir J. Mellor: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask for your guidance on one point? You have ruled that we cannot discuss the question of imposing a time limit upon the Order, on the ground that the Supplies and Services Act, which provides that the Regulation shall have effect by virtue of the Act, has a currency of five years That was determined by Parliament. As I understand your Ruling, you say that, as that has been determined by Parliament, we can-

  2233
  not discuss whether or not the Order can operate for a less period. In my respectful submission. Mr. Speaker, it would,, without in any way contravening the Act, be possible for the Government to insert in the Order itself a time limit, a proviso that this Order shall expire on a certain date. Therefore, with great respect, I shall be pleased if you would give me your guidance whether it would not be in Order to urge upon the Government a different period than five years for the operation of the Order.
  Mr. Speaker: The House has decided that this should last for five years. I must say I am still of that opinion. The House has decided that and we cannot go back on what the House has placed in any Act of Parliament. I am sorry, but I cannot see how—I am not a lawyer—we can go back on a decision of Parliament.
  Sir J. Mellor: Further to that point of Order, I appreciate your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, but we are not discussing the Act. Of course, the Act stands, but it is a question of an Order made under the Act. Because the Act will operate for five years, surely, it does not necessarily follow that every Order made under the Act need operate for the full permissible period. It would be possible, surely, for the Government to insert a time limit, say, of one year, in any Order. That is my point.
  Major Boyd-Carpenter: Further to that point of Order, Mr. Speaker. In my submission what the House is dealing with this evening is the exercise by the Government of their powers under an Act. In my submission it would have been open to the Government, in their judgment, to have exercised their powers under the Act to make an Order to run for a lesser period than the full five years
  Mr. Speaker: I remember there was an Amendment put for two years and that was defeated. Therefore, it seems to me we cannot rediscuss that Amendment or that period. I must confess that, as far as I am concerned, I see no reason to change my original Ruling.
  Captain Crookshank: Further to that point, the Amendment at that stage was whether the whole Act should last for two, three, four or five years. The House decided that the Act
  2234
  should be on the Statute Book for five years, but I would submit to you, Mr. Speaker—I do not know if I can, through you, ask for any advice from the Attorney-General who is here, surely, to guide the House on matters of this kind—whether it is not really in Order for subsidiary Orders under that Act to be for lesser periods.
  Mr. Mikardo: Further to that point of Order, Mr. Speaker, what the hon. Gentlemen are now proposing, even if you accepted the proposal, could be done only by amending the adaptation; that is to say, by amending this Order, the discussion of which is certainly out of Order. Is that not so?
  Mr. Speaker: That I think is the point. After all, an amendment is not in the Order, and therefore cannot be discussed. It is what is in the Order and not what is outside that can be discussed.
  10.20 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: Subject to your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, I will make no reference to the periods for which these particular regulations are enforced. I find no difficulty in bowing to your Ruling on the subject because I do not think that any of these regulations are required at all. That is extremely difficult within the comparatively short period of a Debate such as this—though I am bound to say that I hope the period this evening will not be as short as it was last night—to cover what is a very wide range of most important matters. It would be possible to spend a whole day's Debate on almost every one of these particular regulations but I shall not take up a great deal of time tonight.
  Some of my hon. Friends have been particularly concerned with the first regulation—Regulation 58A—the-Direotion of Labour, and as I do not want to be repetitive I shall not enlarge upon that regulation at all, except to say that anyone who heard the speeches of the Lord President of the Council and the President of the Board of Trade yesterday and today would really be surprised, if they were still in the House, to find that we were opposing that very restriction which I understood they spoke so eloquently and strongly against.
  The one I want to refer to is the question of the avoidance of strikes and

  2235
  lockouts. We ought to have the advice of the Attorney-General upon this matter, and 1 hope he will intervene in this discussion and assist us with his advice. I shall not go back to the Debate about the Trades Disputes Act, but I listened to his very eloquent but rather long speech on that occasion. I did not agree with everything he said, but he made one point which I thought had some force in it and which does apply today, and that is, that when we are passing laws we should have in mind whether it is possible to enforce those laws. He said that to try and hold down the up surging of the people, or whatever it was, and then fail to enforce it, was to bring the whole law into contempt. We ought to consider very seriously whether it really is possible for His Majesty's Government or whether it is proper even if it were possible, to try to prohibit strikes at the present time. If we try to prohibit them, what will happen? What penalties will be imposed? Who will be put into prison? What will be done about it? Before we leave these regulations the Attorney-General should intervene in the Debate and give us his views upon those most important questions.
  I pass on to the question—which I do not think has been dealt with yet, but which is really vital to the efficient administration of the country—of Regulation 58AAA, the "continuation in employment of persons employed in civil service," which is colloquially known as the "freezing" of civil servants. That is to say, you get some one from industry or elsewhere during the course of a war who, for patriotic reasons, serves in a Ministry. I think they are called "dollar a year men." As I understand it, they are not allowed to leave. I may be wrong, but that is what I understand happens under this regulation
  We are asked to continue that regulation into times of peace. I feel, having spoken on the Prayer last night, that the question as to whether it is appropriate to carry it on in peacetime is very relevant to the Debate. I do not think it is possible to carry on a regulation of that kind in peacetime; nor do I believe that we shall get an efficient Civil Service by having men compulsorily held in it. If we want an efficient Civil Service, we must pay proper salaries and encourage men to go into it by making it attractive,
  2236
  as is done in industry. That is the right way. [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] I hope that hon. Members opposite who agree with me will intervene later in the Debate in support of what 1 say. I do not know who is to deal with the point, or whether the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is here. This is something which vitally affects the Civil Service. Possibly the Financial Secretary may be coming in later. Here he is I am very glad to see him in the House and I would like to say to the hon. Gentleman—I am sure he is aware of the regulation we are discussing which vitally affects the status of the Civil Service—that before this regulation is allowed to 'continue, he ought, in courtesy to the House, to get up and make his observations on the general principles which he thinks should be applied in a matter of this nature.
  The only other thing I want to say—and I must apologise to the House for referring to it—is in connection with a matter of local interest. It is the question of canteens for civilian workers to which reference has already been made. It is the Regulation dealing with workmen, seamen and fishermen. It says that where:
  " For securing the due performance of essential work, it is necessary or expedient that special arrangements should be made as respects the supply of intoxicating liquor to those workers, seamen or fishermen, the competent authority may authorise the sale…"
  I do not think one ought to deal too lightly with that. I represent Wales and Monmouth—or- at least Monmouth—but I get letters every day about the supplying of intoxicating liquor, Sunday closing and the rest of it. The Home Secretary ought to say exactly what this Regulation means. For some reason, in my Division we are subjected to the licensing laws of Wales, and the supply of liquor in my area is prohibited on Sundays. Is intoxicating liquor to be supplied under this regulation?
  Mr. George Porter: May I ask—
  Mr. Thorneycroft: No, I am asking the questions. Normally, I would give way in Debate, but the night is yet young, and hon. Members opposite will have ample opportunity at a later stage, perhaps after the Ministers have intervened, to give their views about this. I do not say this too lightly because a great many people

  2237
  feel strongly about it. The Home Secretary should inform me whether under his regulation intoxicating liquor can be supplied on. Sundays or not. I think I have covered the various points I wanted to make and I only want to say that I am glad to see the responsible Ministers, including the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, are here. On matters of this importance the House ought to be given the assistance of their advice and consultation before we part with this regulation, and I hope we shall have the advice of the Attorney General on the vital matter of strikes, of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on the Civil Service, and of the Home Secretary on the matter of the supply of liquor to which I have called his attention.
  10.30 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Ness Edwards): We have had a very interesting Debate on this regulation. Come of it was in temperate, some of it was genuinely seeking after information, and some of it was quite derisory—[Interruption]
  Captain Sir Peter Macdonald: On a point of Order. If a Minister makes some remark or uses a word which the House did not hear or understand, surely we can ask him to tell us what he said?
  Mr. Edwards:Reference was made to the fact that when the vote came to be taken, my hon. Friends on this side of the House would troop into the Lobbies and reject this Motion. I should be very sorry indeed if my hon. Friends on this side behaved in the way that hon. Members on that side behaved in the days be fore this Government when they were addressed by the present Leader in the most scorching terms of condemnation. I would first deal with the speech of the hon. Member for Montrose Boroughs (Mr. Maclay). I want to assure him that every new Order to be made under these powers will have to be laid before this House.
  Mr. Maclay:I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but I should be most grateful if he would tell me why. Is it statutory? Has it got to be? Are they going, to be laid on the Table?
  Mr. Edwards: They will have to be laid on the Table in accordance with the legislation under which the House made it compulsory that such instruments should be laid on the Table, and when hon: Members could seek to annul them by Prayer as they are attempting to do tonight.
  Mr. Maclay: Surely that applies, to Orders in Council only?
  Mr. Edwards: No. I am advised that every. Order issued under these powers must be laid on the. Table.
  Major Boyd-Carpenter.If the hon. Gentleman will read Subsection (1) of Section 4 of the Act to which he refers, he will find that it refers to Orders in Council. Perhaps he will direct the attention of the House to the provisions which deal with these Orders.
  Mr. Edwards: I have not that precise information at my disposal at the moment—[Hon. Members:" Why not? "] I have said that I was so advised, and that advice came from—[Interruption.]
  Mr. P. Thorneycroft rose—
  Mr. Edwards: A genuine question was put to me and I have endeavoured to the best of my ability to give an answer. [Interruption.] It is that such an Order must be laid on the Table.
  Mr. Maclay: There appears to be some slight confusion about this. I, of course, accept what the hon. Gentleman has said, but if by any chance he is proved to be wrong when all the experts have been busy at it, I hope he will take some opportunity to explain the situation.
  Mr. Edwards: I will read the Section which covers the point. It is the justification for my former reply. The Section reads:
  " Every Order in Council made under the principal Acts (or under those Acts as extended by section two of this- Act) which contains Defence Regulations every order or other instrument made under powers conferred by Defence Regulations which is determined in accordance with regulations made under section three of the Rules Publication Act, 1893, to be a statutory rule within the meaning of the said section and to be of the nature of a public Act or which is 01 is deemed to be a statutory rule to which the Rules Publication. Act (Northern Ireland), 19.25 applies (being an "Order in Council order 0f instrument made after the passing of this Act), and every Order

  2239
  in Council made under this Act, shall be laid before. Parliament—
  and so on.
  That is from the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act of 1945.
  I think. I have dealt with that point [HON' MEMBERS: "No!"]—and I would, like to lay before the House the reasons the Ministry of: Labour have: in asking or in taking these powers which are now, the. subject of the prayer I notice that the Mover of the prayer said this—
  " Admittedly the Government have got to find a way of carrying some measures Which were operative during the war on. into the next year or two so that they may be effective during the process of transition."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th November; Vol. 416, c. 310.]
  The Mover of this prayer, who wants completely to annul all these Orders, made that statement in this House on 20th November of last year.
  Sir J. Mellor: Surely the hon. Member will appreciate that we cannot move to amend this Order, and therefore we can only move to annul it.
  Mr. Edwards: I am much obliged; to the hon. Gentleman for saying that. That certainly is a concession from the attitude he adopted in his opening speech. However, I take it that the hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House agree that some controls are necessary for some time to come. I take it now that that is agreed. That is a concession indeed. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) said in a debate in August of last year:
  " 1 agree with the words used by the Foreign Secretary when he was -Minister of Labour in my Administration, namely, that the tremendous winding up process of the war must be followed by a methodical and regulated unwinding."
  He added:
  " It is necessary for the Government to wield exceptional powers for- the time being"—
  [AN HON. MEMBER: "Yes, a war was on."] I am speaking of the 16th August,1945—
  "and so long as they use these powers to achieve the great administrative and executive tasks imposed upon them, we shall not attack them."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th August, 1945: Vol. 413, c. 92.]
  That is what the Leader of the Opposition said: when discussing this very problem
  2240
  itself. Now, the effect of: annulling this Order would be to bring to an end—
  Sir P. Macdonald: Do.1 under—
  Mr Edwards: I do not wish to be discourteous to any hon. Member on that side of the House, But I have given way on a number of occasions, more than any Member on that side of the House. I think, in the circumstances should be allowed to present our case. The effect of.carrying this prayer would be this. In the first place, it would produce chaos throughout industry in this country. That would be the effect of it The Government could not agree to substitute for this planned control a sudden end of all control which would push industry into confusion when it is struggling to adapt itself, to ' peacetime needs. The hon. Gentleman who spoke, for the Opposition advocated the same points of view. I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman who seconded the Prayer agreed with: that point of view: These, controls must be taken off in a planned way so that we can unwind properly for the needs of peace.
  Major Boyd-Carpenter: Is it in Order for the Parliamentary Secretary to purport to quote me and then not allow me to correct him?
  Mr. Edwards: I was going to say that if the hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks I have misrepresented him, I will sit down.
  Major Boyd-Carpenter:What 1 said, and what I say is that so far as I know and am concerned, I consider that some controls are necessary in the interim period. The hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that it is necessary to move to annul the whole.of the Regulation, but it: will be easy to reintroduce those controls which are not obnoxious tomorrow morning if this Prayer is carried.
  Mr. Edwards: There is no attempt, as I was going to say, to introduce anything new. All that is being done is to continue what was brought into existence by hon. Members opposite for the war— [HON. MEMBERS: "During the War."] Before the war. We have these controls. When we came to the end of the war it was decided to meet the representatives of industry and of the

  2241
  workers, and discuss with them, as we discussed throughout the war, the operation of control, and the method of relaxation or annulment we were to adopt. We discussed this matter with the British Employer's Federation and the. Trades Union Council, and it was at the request of this joint consultative committee that this method of taking off the controls was proceeded with, at their request. This was the method we discussed, and we also discussed the effect of taking controls off immediately. We met on 20th November at the Ministry of Labour and they asked for a month's consideration. A further meeting was held in December, and the controls, at the request of both sides were agreed to be continued so that industry could get together. That was agreed so that, when the controls came off, there would be no great upheaval in industry. That, I think, is the sensible way to deal with this subject.
  Let us take, first, the four essential industries. The hon. Member who has talked about wanting five years has pressed, time after time, that the men in agriculture shall be kept there; that the men in the mines shall be kept there; that nurses shall be drafted to hospitals in certain areas. How many times in this House have Members raised questions of hospitals being shut down, about health services being prejudiced and jeopardised, and how many times has the Minister been asked to direct midwives and doctors to various areas of the. country to maintain health services? [Hon. Members: "How many? "] Very frequently. Let us look at another point. Hon. Members on the opposite side were very keen on getting men out of the Forces under Class B. Men who come out under this class are now tied to their industry. Shall men who have never served in the Armed Forces, who are now above the age for call up, be more free than the men who come back under Class B? Let us have equity amongst all our citizens, and let us see that the form of control we impose on the men who come back from the Forces for industrial purposes, shall be imposed on like men who have not been in the Services. That, surely, is the equitable way in which we have to look at this problem. That is the position.
  Let us come to Regulation 58AA. In this case, if this regulation was removed,
  2242
  what would it do? We would destroy the machinery, that has been agreed by both sides of industry, of reference to a national tribunal of any official dispute between them, which they cannot settle. It is under this regulation that we have that power. It is that regulation which enables us to. get compulsory arbitration, and which has been agreed to by both sides of industry during this period. 1 am sure the hon. Members on both sides of the House, would not have us throw away a piece of machinery which we rely upon to see us through the difficulties, through the period of tight control to the period when we have abolished control. That is the machinery which we hope will enable us to solve the difficulties under which industry will transfer from controlled industry to uncontrolled industry. I know that perhaps there will be a feeling of jubilation on the other side of the House when I say this—that there is no intention to retain the Orders made under this regulation any longer than is necessary. I was expecting an interjection. I was hoping I would have it. I was hoping the anouncement of my right hon. Friend that we were decontrolling all women had been welcomed by the House; and that the fact that he had already brought before this House an Order for this purpose would also be welcomed.
  Let me turn to Regulation 58AAA, the one referred to by my hon. Friend, the Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft), when he talked about the Civil Service. This Regulation does freeze the Civil Service. Let us take the Ministry of Food. The Ministry of Food has 98 per cent. of its staff unestablished and temporary. Should we accept the purpose of this Prayer, the Ministry of Food instrument would crumble in our hands. Do I understand that that is what hon. Gentlemen on the other side want? Shall the people of this country go without the machinery of rationing and distribution of food? That would be the effect of the acceptance of this Prayer. Let me take another instance. In the Ministry of Fuel and Power a very large number—I think almost an equal number—of the civil servants there are temporaries. Are we to free all those?
  Sir P. Macdonald: Yes.
  Mr. Edwards: That is what is asked. Let me take another. Since hon. Mem-

  2243
  bers on the other side may be sensitive on that point, let me put this one. The Post Office Savings Department, which is handling the demobilisation payments to the men who are being demobilised, is largely staffed with temporary civil servants. Are we to free those and give them the right to leave those jobs?
  Sir P. Macdonald: Why not?
  Mr. Edwards: And let the returning soldiers go without their demobilisation payments? If we are to have an efficient machine to discharge the obligations which this House has undertaken—
  Lieut.-Colonel Dower: This is too much.
  Mr. Edwards:—we must retain these people. That is the position. I have taken three categories of civil servants. If I may say so, there was a very reason able criticism—
  Mr. P. Thorneycroft: I am not quite sure what point the hon. Gentleman is making. Is his case that unless he retains compulsory powers to keep these people in these Ministries, about 98 per cent. of the staff of the Ministry of Food and the Ministry of Fuel and Power would walk out tomorrow? If that is his case, it seems to me that the conditions of service in those Ministries must be very far below those outside.
  Mr. Edwards: Many of these men were directed by the Government which was composed very largely of hon. Gentlemen opposite. Whatever their conditions, they were directed by hon. Gentlemen opposite. [Hon. Members: "Answer."] These men were taken from their ordinary civilian life. [An HON. MEMBER: "That is no answer."] They want to get back, naturally, but if we established complete freedom for them, what is likely to happen is that we shall get an entirely inefficient instrument to discharge their very important functions, which are in the interests of this nation. That is the answer. There are cases of substantial hardship which can be dealt with in exactly the same way as any other civilian employee. In any other civilian employment cases of undue hardship can get their release by going through the appropriate machinery which this House has provided, and I hope that when this House agreed to direct these men into
  2244
  those positions, they had in mind some of the consequences of their own actions.
  I come to Regulation 59. This provides for relaxations of safety and health conditions in factories, etc., in this country. There is the position. During D-day we took a lot of skilled men, skilled boiler-makers and inspectors, for the purpose of helping in preparations for D-day. The result was that there was not available to managements in this country the skilled staff necessary to carry out the inspections provided for under the factories regulations, and we had to afford them legal cover. It was under this regulation that legal indemnity, as it were, was provided for them in respect of their inability to carry out the provisions of the regulations, for which they were not entirely responsible. As another case let me take coal-mines. The life of a haulage rope, upon which depends the lives of the men, is three and a half years. In certain circumstances, under this Order, where that rope has been inadequately used it is allowed to have a much longer life. The danger was impressed upon us but, after all, risks have to be taken in civilian life as well as in the forces.
  Let me come now to the food industry, where there have been substantial relaxations so that we could get the maximum work from our people. Our demands from employers in the food industry resulted in their being unable to carry out the provisions of the Factory Acts, and it is under these regulations that we have been able to give them dispensation.
  The last regulation—I do not think there is need for me to go further—is No. 60. This is an Order under which power was taken to impose, in all the new industries that arose during the war, regulations for enforcing welfare and safety conditions which were not covered by the old Factories Act, and it will be appreciated on all sides of the House that in the interests of the health of our people this should be preserved. I come to the canteen question, which is really a small matter. Under Regulation 60AA there have been set up throughout this country a number of seamen's welfare clubs. They were established very largely with funds raised in America by the C.I.O. and the A.F.O.L. The Seamen's Welfare Organisation is not yet in a position to accept financial responsibility for running these

  2245
  clubs on a permanent basis and it is under the powers we have under this regulation that we are able to maintain their existence. Our Ministry and the Ministry of War Transport are represented, and are, as is known, trustees for the fund organised by the American war charities.
  Sir P. Macdonald rose—
  Mr. Speaker: The Parliamentary Secretary has not given way; therefore the hon. Member is not in Order.
  Mr. Edwards: I thought it was a point of Order; that is why I sat down. 1 did not propose to give way. At certain docks canteens were established for the dockers under the Dockers' Corporation. The hon Member for Monmouth knows something about these. The continuation of these activities depends upon the existence of our powers under this Order, but negotiations are proceeding actively for all these canteens and clubs to pass out of our jurisdiction and to be placed on an entirely independent basis under the new welfare scheme which is to be provided by the Ministry of Transport. I think that meets the point.
  Mr. P. Thorneycroft: It is a perfectly fair answer that the hon. Gentleman has given me. I would just ask him to consider that this regulation is not restricted to a few seaport towns or canteens of that kind. It applies to canteens for any workers engaged in work and directed by the Ministry. I am not complaining. I think the Ministry has done a fine job of work. The only small point I ask is, does this permit Sunday opening in Wales?
  Sir P. Macdonald rose—
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is rising the whole time. I must ask him to resume his seat.
  Mr. Edwards: It does not permit Sunday opening in Wales in the general sense of the term. All it does is to permit us to continue what we are doing in these clubs. We hope very soon that they will pass under the Ministry of War Transport and we will come to the House to annul this Order.
  There is only one Regulation left, 8oB, which deals generally with the examination of workmen under 50AA. I think
  2246
  I have attempted to answer completely the points which have been put. All I am sorry about is that whilst I have shown every respect to hon. Members opposite when they were putting their case, they did not respond. We feel we must have these instruments to guide this country to normal peacetime conditions This is the hangover from the war. We must do these things on a regulated basis. We are doing it with the complete confidence of the British Employers' Federation and the T.U.C., who have felt it desirable that we should have these powers. The National Advisory Council on Nursing and Midwifery asked us not to lift the control for six months so that they may have an opportunity of putting their house in order. I am advised that we can take powers under the Act, and our powers run concurrently with the Act. As soon as we have finished with the need for these powers, we shall come to the House and ask the House to revoke the powers as quickly as that can be done.
  Already two such revocations are in preparation. I want to assure the House and the country that we shall use control in the best interests of the nation ' and shall avoid industrial upheaval. We shall use the powers in the best interests of the nation
  11.4 p.m.
  Captain Crookshank: We are all very much indebted to the Parliamentary Secretary for having answered so many of the questions put to him, but I am sorry he took exception to the reception of some of his remarks. Evidently he had forgotten that the opening words of his speech were a complaint—a most ill-founded complaint—of the intemperate language of former speeches. If he starts a speech by making that sort of observation, he should not be so surprised if hon. Members are not quite so silent when listening to his own oration. I am afraid I have detected—and I am sure other hon. Members have detected— a certain restiveness on the part of hon. Members opposite that this Debate has taken place at all. When the Debate began, there was certainly an undercurrent of that kind. But it is not our fault that these Motions have to be put down. It is, unfortunately, a result of the technique of the Government. Every Bill that is introduced takes more and more regulatory

  2247
  powers. The corollary of that is that more and more occasions will be required to—
  Mr. Speaker: The right hon. and gallant Gentleman is now discussing the Bills under which these Orders are made. We can discuss only this particular Order, and not the Bills.
  Captain Crookshank: I have not the slightest intention of discussing the Bills. I was only saying there was a certain amount of restiveness, and remarking that it was, unfortunately, a result of the general theme of the Government with regard to legislation; and that it is necessary, therefore, for my hon Friends to look very carefully at all the rules, orders, regulations and whatnot that are brought before Parliament. It is for that reason this Debate has been initiated today. Regulation 58A is one of the most important that we can discuss. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour prayed in aid a quotation from my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), who spoke of the methodical unwinding of the war situation. That speech was made six months ago, and we are entirely with him in thinking— [Interruption].
  Mr. Austin: I am sorry to interrupt, but my amusement was caused by the sight of a sort of red flag handkerchief of the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. G. Nicholson) behind the right hon. and gallant Gentleman.
  Captain Crookshank: The hon. Gentleman prayed in aid that quotation from my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford, speaking on 16th August, of the unwinding of the war arrangements. Of course, we all agree that the unwinding should be methodical We also recollect that it is over six months since that statement was made. Some of the unwinding might by now have proceeded. [HON. MEMBERS: "It has."] Yes, but this Order is for five years. The hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour just now said we are in the period of hangover from the war. It is a very long hangover which is expected to last that long. During all this period it will be possible for employment to be controlled and directed.. That is the whole gravamen of the charge my hon. Friends have made—that the Government are taking those powers, as they
  2248
  have to under the Act,.for the full period of five years. That is the whole trouble. The Parliamentary Secretary says this has been done at the request of the Joint Consultative Committee, and that may be so; it may be so that the method is approved, but what we are objecting to is the length of the time.
  Mr. Mikardo: On a point of Order. Is not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman arguing the question of time which was decided in the discussion of the Act?
  Mr. Speaker: I was listening to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, and I did not think that he had gone quite as far as that.
  Captain Crookshank: And I, knowing the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, do not think he did go that far, and he certainly does not intend to.
  Mr. Marlowe: Further to that point of Order. May we reconsider this matter, because the Act itself refers to the power of the Government?
  Mr. Speaker: I have given a definite Ruling, and we cannot reconsider it. If the hon. Gentleman objects to my Ruling, he can put a Motion down on the Order Paper..
  Captain Crookshank: We object to the Order on the grounds which have already been stated in the House. As it seems to be so difficult to be quite certain how far one may express them at this stage, I will leave it at that. But I want to say a word about 58A, about the Civil Service. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour was going a little too far, I think, when he said that men in the Ministries of Food and Fuel and Power and the Post Office Savings Bank had all been directed to those jobs by hon. Gentlemen on this side. What was carried out during the war was done by a Coalition Government, and the right hon. Gentleman who is sitting next to him is just as much responsible for what was done then. It was, a Coalition Government which carried the country through the war to a successful conclusion, and it is monstrous that the hon. Gentleman should try to make out that any particular act was done by one political section which was comprised in the Coalition. So far as I know, the number of staff in the Post Office Savings Bank, which is enormous, running into something like 17,000 to

  2249
  18,000, are not men at all but almost entirely women. That may surprise the hon. Gentleman, but he would do better to look up his statistics before he answers something for which the Financial Secretary should be answering.
  It is quite true that there are provisions for cases of undue hardship. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) is not here tonight, because I am sure he would have liked to deal with this subject, and he would have done it in a most salutary manner. The whole point is that I am quite certain that all these temporary civil servants are anxious to know whether they are going to be kept for five years. It is a very serious position among these temporary civil servants, because many of them have other jobs to go to, and the House may as well face the fact that in some grades of the Civil Service the salary is not comparable with what they could get in similar positions in the ordinary industrial world. The hon. Gentleman knows it perfectly well. These people would like to know whether they are going to be held, and it is a very serious question to which I hope the Government will give some attention.
  What is clear, of course, is that in these temporary Departments, which have to be staffed with temporary people and there is a large temporary staff of some 5,000 or 6,000 clerks and so on, it is hardly the best thing to attempt to get a permanent Civil Service to run it. But the Minister quoted the Ministry of Food and the Ministry of Fuel and Power, both of which are being continued as permanent departments. Therefore, we on this side would like to know what success is attending the permanent recruitment for these departments. It is a very serious matter, because under this Order there is power for a period of five years, and it is quite natural that some of these people wish to know if there is any possibility of their being kept as long as five years.
  Mr. Callaghan: That is mischievous.
  Captain Crookshank: I am surprised that the hon. Member, who has been such a short time in the Civil Service should now speak with such authority on this subject when the Financial Secretary who is responsible for this particular subject is sitting in front of him.
  Mr. Callaghan: It is extremely mischievous indeed. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman who has had the responsibility of the job of Financial Secretary to the Treasury, is now indulging in mischievous statements which he knows perfectly well are perfectly wrong.
  Captain Crookshank:.I am quite responsible for anything I say in this House, and I cannot see that there was anything mischievous in my making the statement I did with regard to the Ministries keeping these temporary civil servants. I cannot see how anybody can take exception to that. It is a matter of great importance to thousands of men' and women who are employed by the State today.
  The third comment that 1 wanted to make was that I am a little anxious with regard to 59. I know the hon. Member did mention it, but for all that, I am still more anxious from the fact that he had to give an instance, because as I understand it, that regulation means that during the war we were so hard pressed that a great many regulations, which in normal times were considered most important and very stringently policed, had to be relaxed. He instanced haulage rope being used for more than three and a half years. That is not the only instance. There were plenty of others in the mining industry, and factories and quarries, and I am rather anxious in view of that exemption which, if it is passed, will be for five years. I hope that there will be a great speed up In fact, I am surprised that it has not been possible already to annul that particular regulation, and I would like some further reassurances, if not tonight, on an early occasion, from the Government as to how long they think it is necessary to keep that on. It is a serious matter, and I am sure that it is one which must give great anxiety, at any rate to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power and his right hon. Friend, upon whom such a responsibility is laid for seeing to the safety and welfare of miners throughout the country.
  We are bound to resist this Order for the reasons which we have given, and to do so we come near to being disorderly. We are bound to resist this Order because we cannot see any reason why the Government should require these very important controls or should think that they

  2251
  require these important controls for so long a period of time.
  Mr Janner: Would my right hon. and gallant Friend permit me? As I understand his case, he is complaining about the fact that the Order will last for too long a period. May I ask him why he is choosing this particular time, before he knows how the Order is going to work? Why has he not waited until a few months have passed before moving the Prayer?
  Captain Crookshank: For the simple reason that it would be too late. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman did not know that. This Order has to be prayed against within the next few days, as I understand it, and it would be too late to wait until then. But we recognise that there is a case for a temporary period for some of these controls. That has been admitted all along. We do not admit the case for this Order because of the period which is involved, and I think that the House should be very grateful to my hon. Friends for the vigilance they have shown in bringing these matters before the House. On this occasion I must thank the Parliamentary Secretary for having given us as good_ an answer as he could, and certainly touching on every one of the regulations with which we are concerned, which is more than has happened on some other occasions.
  Sir J. Mellor: I must say that I was surprised that the Parliamentary Secretary gave no explanation as to the absence of the Minister of Labour, because I should have thought that, having regard to the immense powers which this Order gives the Minister of Labour, he would have been here himself to say why he must be invested with these powers. One thing which has disappointed me about this Debate is the singular lack of assistance from the back benchers opposite.
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member's remarks must be addreessed to the Prayer and not to the conduct of back benchers opposite.
  Sir J. Mellor: I was hoping I should have had some support from the back benchers opposite, particularly with regard to Regulation 58A. It was said by the Parliamentary Secretary that he needed these drastic powers to guide the
  2252
  country into the more peaceful years. I was interested in that connection in the contrasting his demand for the powers of direction of labour with the statement by the President of the Board of Trade in the Debate today, when he said that direction of labour was no longer practicable or desirable. If that is so, why on earth does the Minister of Labour want this power on paper? With regard to Regulation 58AA, the Parliamentary Secretary justified the retention of it on the ground "that it retains a very desirable provision for establishing a tribunal to settle trade disputes and regulating the proceedings of the tribunal. Nobody has any exception to take to that, but because he can find one good provision in a Regulation it does not justify the retention of all the bad ones. This surely is a complete denial of democratic freedom in this country. But if the Parliamentary Secretary does desire to retain such despotic powers which could only be exercised in a very grave crisis, surely he can give some idea of the type of crisis he anticipates. Assuming such a crisis did develop surely we could have a further Emergency Powers Act.
  The Parliamentary Secretary also said that if this Order were annulled immediately there would be chaos throughout industry. But as has been pointed out it would be possible to introduce a new Order the very next day which could remain in existence until it was annulled and then what was already done under the Order would not be undone. It is no answer to what we have said on this side of the House that he had received support from the Trades Union Congress and the British Federation of Employers. What they said may have been good enough for the Minister of Labour, but it is not necessarily good enough for us who represent our constituencies and owe allegiance to neither of these bodies. I regret that the Parliamentary Secretary has not given us some satisfaction. In fact, he has given none at all and I propose that, when the time is ripe, we shall divide the House.
  Mr. Maclay: On a point of Order. Is there any way in which I can change the peroration of my speech, in the light of the knowledge the Parliamentary Secretary has now give us, because I had two ready, and the wrong one came out in the light of the knowledge we now have.
  Question put;
  "That the Order in Council, dated 20th December, 1945, with respect to Defence Regulations relating to the Control of Employment and Conditions of Employment (S.R. amp; O.,
  1945, No.162o), a copy of which Order was presented on 22nd January, be annulled."
  The House divided: Ayes, 65; Noes, 176.

  Division No. 94.]

  AYES.

  [11.25 p.m.

  Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

  Hollis, Sqn. Ldr. M. C

  Prior-Palmer, Brig O

  Baldwin, A. E.

  Hope, Lord J.

  Ramsay, Maj. S.

  Barlow, Sir J.

  Howard, Hon. A

  Rayner, Brig. R.

  Bennett, Sir P.

  Keeling, E. H.

  Ross, Sir R.

  Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

  Kerr, Sir J. Graham

  Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.

  Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G

  Lambert, Hon. G.

  Smithers, Sir W.

  Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

  Carson, E.

  Macdonald, Capt. Sir P. (I. of Wight]

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. J.

  Clarke, Col. R. S.

  Mackeson, Lt.-Col. H. R.

  Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

  Maclay, Hon. J. S.

  Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C

  Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)

  Touche, G. C

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Turton, R. H.

  Dower, Lt.-Col. A. (Penrith)

  Marples, Capt. A. E.

  Vane, Lieut.-Col. W. M. T

  Drayson, Capt. G. B.

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Wakefield, Sir W. W

  Drewe, C.

  Medlicott, Brig. F.

  Walker-Smith, D.

  Duthie, W. S.

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Ward, Hon. G. R.

  Fox, Sqn.-Ldr. Sir G

  Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)

  Wheatley, Col. M. J.

  Gage, Lt.-Col. C

  Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C. E.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Hare, Lieut.-Col. Hn. J. H. (W'db'ge)

  Neven-Spence, Major Sir B

  Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)

  Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

  Nicholson, G.

  Head, Brig. A. H.

  Nield, B. (Chester)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C

  Nutting, Anthony

  Sir John Mellor and Major Boyd-

  Hogg, Hon. Q.

  Pitman, I. J.

  Carpenter.

  NOES

  Adams, Richard (Balham)

  Foot, M. M.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W.

  Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

  Foster, W. (Wigan)

  Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)

  Adamson, Mrs. J. L.

  Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

  Marshall, F. (Brightside)

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)

  Mathers, G.

  Attewell, H. C.

  Gaitskell, H. T. N.

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Austin, H. L.

  Ganley, Mrs. C. S

  Medland, H. M.

  Ayles, W. H.

  Goodrich, H. E

  Mikardo, Ian

  Bacon, Miss A.

  Gordon-Walker, P. C.

  Mitchison, Maj. G. R.

  Bechervaise, A. E.

  Granville. E. (Eye)

  Morley, R.

  Beswick, Flt.-Lieut. F

  Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

  Morris, P (Swansea, W.)

  Bing, Capt G. H. C.

  Grierson, E.

  Neal, H. (Claycross)

  Binns, J.

  Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

  Nicholls H. R (Stratford)

  Blackburn, Capt. A. R

  Gunter, Capt. R. J.

  Noel-Buxton Lady

  Blenkinsop, Capt. A.

  Haire, Flt.-Lieut. J. (Wycombe)

  O'Brien, T.

  Boardman, H.

  Hall, W. G. (Colne Valley)

  Oliver, G. H.

  Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

  Hardy, E. A.

  Orbach, M.

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'p'l, Exch'ge)

  Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

  Paget, R. T.

  Braddock, T (Mitcham)

  Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

  Brook, D. (Halifax)

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  Holman, P.

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Burden, T. W.

  House, G.

  Peart, Capt. T. F

  Burke, W. A.

  Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

  Perrins, W.

  Callaghan, James

  Hughes, Lt. H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.

  Price, M. P.

  Champion, A. J.

  Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

  Pritt, D. N.

  Chetwynd, Capt. G. R

  Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

  Pursey, Cmdr H.

  Clitherow, Dr. R

  Irving, W. J.

  Ranger, J.

  Coldrick, W.

  Janner, B.

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Collins, V. J.

  Jeger, Capt. G. (Winchester)

  Rhodes, H.

  Colman, Miss G. M.

  Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

  Robens, A

  Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.

  Jones, D T. (Hartlepools)

  Scollan, T.

  Corlett, Dr. J.

  Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

  Scott-Elliot, W.

  Crawley, Flt.-Lieut. A

  Keenan, W.

  Segal, Sq.-Ldr. S.

  Daines, P.

  Kenyon, C.

  Sharp, Lt.-Col G. M.

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  King, E. M

  Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)

  Deer, G.

  Kinley, J.

  Shawcross, Sir H. (St Helens)

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Lee, F. (Hulme)

  Shurmer, P.

  Delargy, Captain H. J

  Levy, B. W.

  Silverman, J (Erdington)

  Diamond, J.

  Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)

  Simmons C. J.

  Douglas, F. C. R.

  Lewis, J. (Bolton)

  Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Lipton, Lt.-Col, M.

  Skinnard, F. W.

  Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

  Longden, F.

  Smith, Capt. C. (Colchester)

  Dumpleton, C. W.

  Lyne, A. W.

  Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  McAllister, G.

  Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)

  Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Smith, T. (Normanton)

  Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

  Mack, J. D.

  Snow, Capt. J. W.

  Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Soskice, Maj. Sir F.

  Fairhurst, F.

  Maclean, N. (Govan)

  Stamford, W.

  Farthing, W. J.

  McLeavy, F.

  Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulhant, E.)

  Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

  MacMillan, M. K.

  Strauss, G. R.

  Follick, M.

  Macpherson, T. (Romford)

  Swingler, Capt. S.

  Symonds, Maj. A. L.

  Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

  Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)

  Williams, W. R. (Heston)

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Warbey, W. N.

  Woodburn, A.

  Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

  Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

  Wyatt, Maj. W.

  Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

  Weitzman, D.

  Yates, V. F.

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

  Younger, Maj. Hon. K. G.

  Titterington, M. F.

  Wigg, Colonel G. E.

  Ungoed-Thomas, L.

  Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.

  Vernon, Maj. W. F.

  Wilkes, Maj. L.

  Mr. Pearson and Mr. Collindridge.

  Walker, G. H.

  Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

  ADJOURNMENT
  Resolved: "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. R. J. Taylor,]
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-six Minutes to Twelve o'Clock.

  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE INSTITUTIONS (INMATES, POCKET MONEY)
  PUBLIC ASSISTANCE INSTITUTIONS (INMATES, POCKET MONEY)
  GILESGATE BARRACKS, DURHAM
  GILESGATE BARRACKS, DURHAM
HOUSING
  Municipal Houses (Purchase)
  Municipal Houses (Purchase)
  Requisition of Land, Hampstead
  Requisition of Land, Hampstead
  Progress Returns
  Progress Returns
  Building Sites
  Building Sites
  VIVISECTION (REGISTERED PLACES,INSPECTION)
  VIVISECTION (REGISTERED PLACES,INSPECTION)
  ALIENS (NATURALISATION, PRIORITY)
  ALIENS (NATURALISATION, PRIORITY)
  NATIONAL FIRE SERVICE (GRATUITIES)
  NATIONAL FIRE SERVICE (GRATUITIES)
  STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATE, CARDIFF (APPOINTMENT)
  STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATE, CARDIFF (APPOINTMENT)
EDUCATION
  Teachers
  Teachers
  School Meals (Streetly)
  School Meals (Streetly)
  Elementary School Site. Stoke Newington
  Elementary School Site. Stoke Newington
  Emergency Training Colleges (South Wales)
  Emergency Training Colleges (South Wales)
  Wrexham Emergency Training College (Students' Grants)
  Wrexham Emergency Training College (Students' Grants)
POST OFFICE
  Redundant Staff (Release)
  Redundant Staff (Release)
  Telephone Service
  Telephone Service
  Registered Letter Delay, Chippenham
  Registered Letter Delay, Chippenham
  Malaya (Postal Facilities).
  Malaya (Postal Facilities).
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Income Tax (Husbands and Wives)
  Income Tax (Husbands and Wives)
  Tips (Taxation)
  Tips (Taxation)
  Income Tax Receipt Forms
  Income Tax Receipt Forms
EMPLOYMENT
  Trawling Industry (Schemes)
  Trawling Industry (Schemes)
  Paisley
  Paisley
  Stoke on Trent
  Stoke on Trent
  UNIVERSITIES (ACCOMMODATION)
  UNIVERSITIES (ACCOMMODATION)
  FRENCH BANKS (BRITISH SUBJECTS' CREDITS)
  FRENCH BANKS (BRITISH SUBJECTS' CREDITS)
DEMOBILISATION
  Group Dates
  Group Dates
  Service Personnel (Civilian Employment)
  Service Personnel (Civilian Employment)
  MILITARY SERVICE (APPRENTICES)
  MILITARY SERVICE (APPRENTICES)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Lost Clothing (Replacement)
  Lost Clothing (Replacement)
  Hearing Aids
  Hearing Aids
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Building Tools
  Building Tools
  Ministry Staff
  Ministry Staff
  Ordnance Factories (Housing Requirements)
  Ordnance Factories (Housing Requirements)
BRITISH ARMY
  Transit Camp, Taranto (Complaints)
  Transit Camp, Taranto (Complaints)
  Mail (Italy)
  Mail (Italy)
  Requisitioned Property
  Requisitioned Property
  Postings (B.A.O.R,)
  Postings (B.A.O.R,)
  Personal Case
  Personal Case
  House Building, Europe
  House Building, Europe
  B.A.O.R. (Tobacco)
  B.A.O.R. (Tobacco)
  Demobilisation
  Demobilisation
  JAPAN (WAR CRIMES TRIALS)
  JAPAN (WAR CRIMES TRIALS)
  BROADCASTING (STAGSHAW STATION)
  BROADCASTING (STAGSHAW STATION)
  BRITISH ALLY "
  BRITISH ALLY "
  T.T. MILK
  T.T. MILK
  POLISH AIRCRAFT, ITALY
  POLISH AIRCRAFT, ITALY
  DISABLED PERSONS (UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT)
  DISABLED PERSONS (UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT)
  SCOTLAND (HOUSING)
  SCOTLAND (HOUSING)
  PENSIONS AND GRANTS
  PENSIONS AND GRANTS
  ROAD ACCIDENTS, LONDON
  ROAD ACCIDENTS, LONDON
  FOOD PRODUCTION (CAMPS AND AIRFIELDS)
  FOOD PRODUCTION (CAMPS AND AIRFIELDS)
Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The VISCOUNT MERSEY on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
The Lord Melchett—Took the Oath.

ISSUE OF VICTORY POSTAGE STAMPS.
LORD WOOLTON: My Lords, I beg to put the following question, of which I have given private notice, namely, to ask His Majesty's Government whether it is proposed to issue a series of commemorative postage stamps in connexion with the forthcoming celebration of the Victory holiday.
THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I am extremely obliged to the noble Lord opposite for rendering yet another service to the Post Office by asking me this question. His Majesty's Government propose that a special commemorative issue of postage stamps shall be made in connexion with the forthcoming Victory celebrations. Our manufacturing resources, and the time available, are severely limiting factors. But I intend to issue one, and if time permits, two commemorative stamps of the lower denominations for inland and Imperial letters, and foreign letters, respectively. This will provide for the great majority of inland and overseas letters. In order to give scope for a worthy design the stamps will be of double size, that is, the equivalent of two of the current stamps side by side. A number of artists have been invited to submit designs, and they have been asked to emphasize peace and reconstruction in their designs rather than victory in war. I am in consultation with the Council of Industrial Design, and it is my intention also to seek the co-operation of the Royal Fine Art Commission and the Royal Fine Art Commission for Scotland in choosing the final designs for submission to His Majesty.
LORD WOOLTON: I am very much obliged to the noble Earl, and I am sure it will be a great gratification to those who are interested in design to see that he has taken so much pains to see that the stamps should be worthy of the occasion.

ASSURANCE COMPANIES BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
AGRICULTURE (ARTIFICIAL INSEMINATION) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTERS OF THE CROWN (TRANSFER OF FUNCTIONS) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

UNITED NATIONS BILL. [H.L.]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISON)had given Notice of a Motion to resolve, That the proceedings of Tuesday last with respect to the Bill be vacated. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, the Motion which stands in my name seeks to vacate our proceedings on the Third Reading of this Bill last Tuesday, and is designed to enable us to remedy what may be described as a "technical hitch." Unhappily, before we passed it here and sent it to another place, we omitted to move the Privilege Amendment cutting out the subsection which provides for the payment of expenses under the Act out of moneys voted by Parliament. If your Lordships will be good enough to pass this Motion to remedy this hitch, the Bill will be ordered for a Third Reading tomorrow, and will be passed formally after the Privilege Amendment has been made, at our sitting at four o'clock tomorrow afternoon when, as I told your Lordships yesterday, we hope to receive the Agricultural (Ploughing Up of Land) Bill and to give it a First Reading so as to enable the Second Reading to be taken on Tuesday next. I regret that it is necessary

965
to move this, and I ask for your Lordships' clemency in this matter. I beg to move.
Moved, That the proceedings of Tuesday last with respect to the Bill be vacated.—(Viscount Addison.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.
4.7 p.m.

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
VISCOUNT ADDISON VISCOUNT ADDISON moved to resolve: That the Earl of Drogheda be appointed Chairman of Committees of this House for the remainder of this Session. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, in moving the first Motion which stands on the Paper in my name, I am sure that it would meet with the desire of the House if I were to recall what we owe to Lord Stanmore, who is resigning the Chairmanship. Your Lordships will remember that he undertook the duties at a very difficult time, and saw us through the Committee stage of the Education Bill, which occupied a good many days in this House, with singular acceptance in all parts of the House. Nor will you forget that we owe a great deal to Lord Stanmore for his 32 years of service in this House. For many years he had been a Whip, and he was Acting Chairman of Committees before he was appointed Chairman of Committees. I am sure that he has in the records of this House an exceptionally long continuous period of service. The noble Lord must have, amongst other noble Lords, a very special place in our records, as I see that his grandfather was a Prime Minister, that another grandfather was Clerk of the Parliaments, whilst a great-uncle was Speaker of the House of Commons. That must be a unique assembly of distinguished services by his forbears. We shall wish to place on record our appreciation of all we owe to him.
I pass now to deal with the Motion which stands in my name. I think that the selection of the noble Earl, Lord Drogheda, is one which will appeal to all sections of the House. We recollect his distinguished services in Government Departments, particularly under the noble Earl opposite, and I feel sure that he has the experience and qualities which will commend themselves to your Lordships. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Earl of Drogheda be appointed Chairman of Committees of this House for the remainder of this Session.—(Viscount Addison.)
LORD WOOLTON: My Lords, on behalf of those who sit on these Benches, and particularly, if I may say so, on behalf of the Leader of the Opposition, who has asked me to deputize for him, I. should like to associate myself with the words of the noble Viscount who leads the House. Those of us who have had experience of Lord Stanmore during the last few years, have indeed been indebted to him for his courtesy and consideration. I am sure that all your Lordships remember his services and regret that he finds it necessary to leave this position. As regards the proposition immediately before you, I am sure that your Lordships will find in the noble Earl, Lord Drogheda, a most excellent successor to Lord Stanmore. I had some experience of the work of the noble Earl when I was a member of the Government and I am sure that the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, who has had much more intimate experience of his work, would like to speak of him. Meanwhile I would like to assure the noble Earl, Lord Drogheda, that from these Benches he will have not only a welcome but every support in the position to which we shall elect him.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, we on these Benches would desire to associate ourselves with the tribute that has been paid to the noble Lord, Lord, Stanmore. He has added even to the illustrious record of his family in public service, to which reference has been made. He has now held the highest post in the gift of this House; but for many years before that, in less conspicuous but indispensable work, he has served this House faithfully and long for a period covering no less than a third of a century. Now that he retires from its service I feel sure the whole House would wish to place on record its deep gratitude. What is a loss to the Chair will be a gain to these Benches, and we shall be pleased to have him again associated with us, as he was previously for several decades. I would also like to support the Motion that the noble Earl, Lord Drogheda, be appointed to the Chair. His great abilities and wide experience and, by House of Lords standards, relatively youthful age, will make him an efficient and active servant of the House.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, I should like to support the Motion of the Leader of the House, not in an official capacity but in a personal capacity. Throughout my tenure of office as Minister of Economic Warfare I had the great privilege and good fortune of having as the Director-General of the Ministry the noble Earl, Lord Drogheda, and I should like to tell your Lordships that in that capacity he was a tower of strength to me and to the whole Department. He brought to the work a ripe experience in many fields of life, the Foreign Office, the Army, business and the law—a very rare combination of experience in different fields, in all of which he served with great distinction. Therefore your Lordships will not be surprised when I tell you that his wisdom and his judgment on the many questions that present themselves to Ministers was of the utmost value and of never-failing sagacity.
I think almost the biggest contribution the noble Earl made to the work of the Department was that of infusing a team spirit among the many men and women who laboured there. He had a wonderful charm of manner, and took a personal interest in every worker, no matter how young or how old, no matter how long or how short a time they had served in the Department. His familiarity with their work and sympathy with their problems made the whole Department a happy family and united in their respect and in their affection for the Director-General. As the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, has said, Lord Stanmore is a difficult man to follow. I especially have great reason to know that because I was privileged to pilot the Education Bill through your Lordships' House when he was in the Chair, and I am quite certain we should not have made the progress we did if it had not been for his very experienced and wise chairmanship. In selecting the noble Earl, Lord Drogheda, as his successor, I am sure your Lordships will make a very wise decision.
On Question, Motion agreed to, nemine contradicente, and ordered accordingly.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, I beg to move the two other Motions that stand in my name on the Paper.
Moved,
That the Earl of Drogheda do take the Chair in all Committees of the Whole
968
House, unless where it shall have been otherwise directed by the House.
That the Earl of Drogheda do also take the Chair in all Committees upon Private Bills and other matters, unless where it shall have been otherwise directed by the House.—(Viscount Addison.)
On Question, Motions agreed to, nemine contradicente, and ordered accordingly.

GOVERNMENT CIVIL AVIATION POLICY.
4.15 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE rose to call attention to the civil aviation policy of His Majesty's Government outlined in Cmd. Paper 6712; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, since your Lordships debated the question of civil aviation some weeks ago two things have occurred. Firstly, the Government published the White Paper promised by the noble Lord, Lord Winster, during the last debate. Secondly, there has been another important debate in another place. There has also been a conference between British and United States representatives at Bermuda. Though we regret the absence of the Minister of Civil Aviation, Lord Winster, the Government is represented by the Leader of the House, to whom I would like to express my gratitude for agreeing that we have this debate to-day. My colleagues, the noble Lords who sit with me on these Benches, felt that, in spite of the absence of the Minister of Civil Aviation, we should ventilate certain matters and ask certain questions arising out of the two events I have just mentioned.
My noble friend Viscount Swinton is going to deal in greater detail with the outcome of the Bermuda Conference as expressed in the White Paper which has just arrived at the Printed Paper Office, but which your Lordships will note the Government gave to the Press about a fortnight ago. My only comment on that Conference is that it does make virtually unrestricted competition between the United States and ourselves possible, because as regards the number of aircraft which the United States can send into this country, and as regards the number of passengers the United States can pick up in this country and take into another

969
country, excepting our Colonial possessions, there is no limit at all, and there is no sanction in respect of any attempt by the United States to, as it were, run us out of the air except good intentions as expressed in the Bermuda document. The relevant paragraph says:
"… the two Governments desire to foster and encourage the widest possible distribution of the benefits of air travel for the general good of mankind at the cheapest rates consistent with sound economic principles …"
That is an admirable intention. As long as the intention is carried out this country will be able to maintain its position, but if that intention is not carried out, then Bermuda exposes us to unrestricted competition.
The purpose of British civil aviation is to spread a network of British operated and equipped airlines over the surface of the world. We wish the air to do for Great Britain what the Mercantile Marine did for us on the seas. But to-day, if your Lordships will look at the position, I think you must agree that we have done little to fulfil that objective compared with the task that lies before us. I wish I could say to-day that I think our prospects are otherwise than very grim at the present time. There was a debate in another place yesterday on the man-power situation, and there was an appeal on the one hand by the Prime Minister to deal with the man-power situation on a national basis, and, on the other hand an appeal from Mr. Oliver Lyttelton that the Government should abandon some of their ideological theories and the implementation of some of their Socialist doctrines in order to get on with the job. I believe that in the realm of civil aviation that applies to-day. We are at the moment sacrificing immediate opportunities for the sake of ideological theories.
Command Paper 6712 expresses high ideals and is an admirable document in many ways for those who believe in the Socialist policy, but it does not give any real and positive plan for the execution of the objective of civil aviation. If I may say so, it seems to me to read rather more like a political pamphlet than the policy of a Government. We are at the present time following a Government plan for the restriction of this great new enterprise to three State-owned corporations. And let me interpose here that we have not yet received the Bill in this
970
House which will make the implementation of that policy possible. That Bill has not yet appeared in either place.
Other countries are forging ahead in operation, in aircraft and in airports, and we are falling behind all the time. May I give one or two examples? On the Paris routes we are losing to the French. Their aircraft, as some of your Lordships who have travelled in them may know, are sound-proof and comfortable. Our aircraft are not fitted with cushions at all and they are not sound-proof. They are full of what are called V.I.P.'s and priorities. Take the line to Ireland. The Irish Company are using a most comfortable Douglas aircraft; we are using a converted war-time Anson. Take the North Atlantic. There the position is very depressing, for we have no air service across the North Atlantic at all at the present time, whereas the United States has a steady flow of aircraft arriving at these shores. To-day you can go to their offices in London, if you can arrange with the Treasury to obtain the necessary dollars, and buy a passage and fly to the United States by American aircraft, but there is no British aircraft flying the North Atlantic at the present time.
As regards airports, we have the one at Northolt which passengers flying to and from Europe use. I must say I think it is a very poor example of what British civil aviation can do, when one sees the shoddy, wooden-type buildings which are going up in that establishment, which is going to be more than a temporary airport, for we are told it is to be used for all time in addition to Heath Row, the main airport. In France, Le Bourget airport is being restored at full speed and has fine terminal buildings. In every direction we look we find we are really achieving nothing at the moment. There is a feeling of stagnation amongst those who are concerned in trying to get British civil aviation going, except amongst those in Government circles. Speeches, pious hopes and paper programmes will not mend the situation.
We are told that the position is due to the policy on which we concentrated of producing combat-type aircraft during the War, while America concentrated on producing transport types. Therefore she has the advantage over us. That is true to a large extent, but ten months have

971
passed since Germany was defeated, and surely we cannot go on using that excuse all the time. The United States to-day is using the most modern aircraft across the Atlantic, and I am informed that next year she will be flying, if not on service at any rate on experimental work, one of the new Jet aircraft across the Atlantic. We have not even ordered our commercial aircraft which are essential. My noble friend Lord Brabazon, who has done much work in preparing specifications and who is unable to be here to-day, has given me information as regards the types which he recommends. There is a wonderful great aeroplane which is going to fly in 1947, called the Brabazon 1. That is a very fine aircraft, but it is going to need a specially long runway at Bristol to enable it to fly, and legislation is needed for its provision. Unless we speed matters up, we are going to have the machine ready without any aerodrome from which it can fly. I am informed that for months the need for that aerodrome extension has been realized, but so far no legislation has been promoted.
There is an aircraft which Lord Brabazon calls the "bread and butter" of the big operating companies of the future—the Brabazon Type 3. Lord Brabazon proposed to the Ministry of Civil Aviation eighteen months ago that that aircraft should be ordered. A. V. Roe's up till to-day have not even received the contract for the prototype, although they gave the particulars of what they wished to build to the Government eighteen months ago. I know I have not given notice to the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, of some of these points, but I cannot help bringing them out in the debate, and I hope a note will be taken of them and that in due course some reply will be given. Lord Brabazon considers that we are in grave danger of falling behind unless there is much greater speed in the administration of these orders than has hitherto been evident.
Another type of aircraft, the Brabazon Type 5, is, being built at Reading. The firm concerned, during the administration of my noble friend Viscount Swinton, was to get an order for a fairly large number of that particular aircraft. The order has not yet been received by that firm, and all they are doing is to build two prototypes. British civil aviation cannot
972
advance so long as there is indecision by the Government. I would submit that the system is entirely wrong where the operator does not order direct from the manufacturer but has to go through a Government Department, with all the delay that is necessarily involved. We had a flying boat—I saw in the Press that it was the finest and greatest flying-boat in the world—called the Shetland. Unfortunately, I suppose owing to the carelessness of two air mechanics, that beautiful flying boat caught fire and was burnt in a matter of a few minutes. That was the sole one, but there were parts for eleven more Shetlands (for it was originally intended to build twelve) at Short's Works at Rochester. When I was at the Air Ministry, before the Ministry of Civil Aviation was formed, I tried to persuade my superiors that we should build all those twelve civil Shetland boats. I quite agreed with the decision which forbade that at that time, because then we were at war with Germany and could not allocate man-power or materials for civil aviation. But surely, seeing that the war with Germany was over ten months ago, we might have got those parts from Short's and put them together and made Shetland flying-boats, instead of now being left with only the burnt ashes of one Shetland and the parts of eleven others still in the works.
I submit to your Lordships that the reason why we are stagnating is that we are trying to stifle, by a policy of nationalization and restriction, those very qualities which are needed for this adventure of mankind in the air. Restriction, prohibition and limitation are the enemies of the merchant adventurers, and we need merchant adventurers in the air. If we want British aircraft equal to all others, then we should create a demand for those aircraft by developing three, four, or more users. We have just had to purchase some American aircraft. I would resist that purchase, because only by forcing users to use British aircraft shall we create a demand which will make manufacturers produce the very best articles. We should give freedom to the users to use any British aircraft they like, and cut out the Government Departments that prevent immediate contact between the user and the manufacturer. British industry can produce as good and better aircraft than anybody else, but the policy of a single Government user, subject to

973
close Government control, will never give that scope that our nation deserves for its air effort. I deplore this policy, but it has been voted on, and has been passed by the other place, and therefore I can only register my fear that we are going to lose heavily in the air through its implementation. I hope that even at this late hour the Government will consider altering their present views.
There is only one field left for private enterprise in commercial flying in this country, and that is the field of air charter and taxi services. In the debate in your Lordships' House on the last occasion, Lord Winster said he did not wish to knock private flying on the head, but he did not explain in detail what that wish of his implied. The Government companies are now going to take powers which will enable them to run charter services. It is quite certain that there will be a number of private companies wishing to enter the charter field, and the competition between those companies will be sufficient to keep fares down. I submit that, although it is not intended to knock private flying on the head, there is a very real risk that the entry of these State corporations into the field of charter and taxi work will make it impossible for this last stand of private enterprise to cope with Government competition.
The essential purpose of charter is to supply the individual needs of a citizen who is willing to pay; so it seems to me a strange doctrine that a Socialist Government should use its State-operated and State-owned concerns to satisfy the requirements of any particular single individual. After all, the London Passenger Transport Board runs regular bus routes, but it leaves taxi work in London to the taxis, when we can get them. I grant that taxis in London leave something to be desired at the present time, but that is, I think, due to war usage. The railways run special trains, but they are run over scheduled routes. I submit it is entirely wrong that the only field left to private enterprise should be subjected to this blast of competition from State-subsidized and State-operated corporations, which have great advantages in the way of no petrol rationing and operation from the best airfields, together with many other advantages which I need not enumerate. I think it is a terrible thing that this charter work should be at the
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mercy of State corporations. Directly anybody pioneers a freight service—and there is a great future for the carrying of freight by air all over the world—sufficiently to create a constant demand, then along is going to come a Government corporation and say, "This is a regular route now; therefore you must get off it, and we, the Government Corporation, will exercise our monopoly to be the only body that runs airlines."
I want to touch for a moment on the question of fares. This Government monopoly policy seems to me to put the public at the mercy of the Government as regards air travel. I believe there is to be an advisory tribunal, but we have been given no particulars of it. When we asked Lord Winster for particulars he replied," Wait till you see the Bill." When the State gave monopoly rights to the railways, they removed the decision on fares to a ⋆ semi-judicial body, the Railway Rates Tribunal, which gave consumers of transport a measure of protection. I would ask the noble Viscount who is to reply if he can give us some information as to what protection the consumers of air travel will receive so that they are not exploited in order that the enterprise shall be able to show satisfactory financial results. Could there not be a tribunal which would have power to make to the Minister recommendations? Then if he did not accept them, he would have to justify their rejection to Parliament.
As to the future of staffs in these Government corporations, and particularly in the European corporation, I would like to know what is the future security for the staffs of the Railway Air Services, who number, I think, some 200. Hitherto we have been told the new corporations will be responsible for engaging their staffs. We could well ask whether it is not reasonable for a Socialist administration to give some small measure of security to the staffs of the companies which are going to be taken over. At present they are at the mercy of new employers who will take them on or not as they think fit. I hope the noble Viscount who replies will be able to tell us that in the Bill which we shall in due course have in this House there will be some provision whereby the services of those people in the past will be recognized

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and their security in the future assured.
On the question of airports, I would ask what is the position of municipal airports? The Government propose, as noble Lords know, to take over all scheduled airports. There are many municipalities in various parts of the country which have been enterprising and which have built airports themselves. What is their position now if they are not taken over? They may wish to continue to operate, they may wish to run flying clubs, they may wish to run charter services and freight services. Are they going to be allowed to have the same Governmental advantages of radio and meteorology as these scheduled airports? If a municipality wishes to start an airport on its own, will it be necessary to get Governmental permission, and will the Ministry of Health refuse to sanction a loan unless the Ministry of Civil Aviation says that that airport is going to be used in the future? I think that local authorities are entitled to a greater amount of information on the Government airport policy than they have had hitherto.
As to the London airports, we know there is going to be Heath Row, and we know there is going to be Northolt, with the very inadequate buildings which are now being put up. We would like to know whether there is going to be a third airport, and whether the Government would consider setting up a London Airport Authority, on the lines of the Port of London Authority, to administer all London airports. I have briefly put certain questions to the noble Viscount who is going to reply. I would make a plea that there should be imparted a much greater sense of urgency to the immediate problems of civil aviation than is at present animating the administration. Otherwise I fear very much we are going to be left behind in this race in the vital development of the age, a race in which this country must play its full part, and be equal to anyone else if it is going to succeed in future commerce, and in holding its own with the rest of the world.
4.39 p.m.
LORD SHERWOOD: My Lords, there are one or two points I should like to put to the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House. I think we are all grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of
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Inchyre, for having brought this question up again. I am sorry that Lord Winster, the Minister, is unable to be here, because, as we all know, no man takes a keener interest in and has more knowledge of the subject. He is in a very important position to-day.
I do not take the same view as Lord Balfour. I am not such a Jeremiah as he shows himself to be in speaking about the gloomy state of civil aviation. And I do not necessarily differ altogether with this White Paper. It is quite true that another White Paper was published before this one. It outlined what was called the Swinton plan. Your Lordships may have read what the Lord Privy Seal said about that plan in another place. It is not for me to quote the Lord Privy Seal, but those of you who read the report of his remarks will realize that what he stated was very near what actually happened.
The Coalition Government was formed to win the war, and when it tried to deal with things set up after the war it was always in a difficulty by reason of having to satisfy different Parties in the State. That was the real problem which had to be faced. In the case of these two White Papers I must say that I am glad that those parts of the first White Paper which have been left out in the second White Paper have been omitted. I did not necessarily agree with many of the points in the Swinton Paper—for example, the bringing in of the railways and the shipping companies. I have never agreed with that. But now you have a policy laid down, and perhaps I may be allowed to ask with regard to it some questions upon which I should like enlightenment from the Government. I do not ask them in any antagonistic spirit because I am not definitely, or in any real way, opposed to the main policy which is set out in this White Paper.
If you are going to build for civil aviation in the world as it is to-day your work has got to be done on national lines. Of that I am certain. It is no good thinking that you can do this with "merchant adventurers", whatever that term may mean. The thing has gone too far for that. Great problems such as the problems of safety and of how you are going to deal with other countries have to be faced on a far greater scale than anything which has confronted us

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in the past. This is an international matter to a very great extent, and if you think that you can leave it purely to private enterprise you are going to get what you saw to a great extent between the wars—absolute chaos. The noble Lord, Lord Balfour, was in office before the war. He went into office, perhaps, on the Cadman Report which condemned civil aviation as it was run then. Now this White Paper is really the next step. What Lord Balfour and the Government of which he was a member—a purely Conservative regime—started was the idea of B.O.A.C.
There are criticisms to be made of this Report, naturally. It is not frightfully well written to my mind, and in some ways it lays too much stress on what is called orderly development and not on rapid development. I agree with Lord Balfour that there is great need of urgency in this matter. Do not let us put too much faith in orderly development. We must proceed in this industry with rapid strides. The big difference between the Government's present White Paper and the former one—and this is a matter on which I should like to ask some questions—is the setting up of the three Corporations. I am not very happy about that. I know what you had before, because for that set-up I was to a certain extent responsible, as I was a Minister at the time. I held office when Brigadier-General Critchley was made Director-General, and I must say that I am sorry he has been sacked. He did not resign; he was sacked. I believe that though many people may differ with some of his views this, at any rate, is certain: he is a man with immense drive, and he contributed an immense amount: towards rebuilding what had been Imperial Airways and the B.O.A.C. into what it is today. His drive was undoubtedly a great asset, and, as I say, I am very sorry that he has had to go. But, at the same time I could see quite well that he could not remain under this present set-up.
In this connexion I think your Lordships ought to bear in mind what you are really getting now. You are very nearly getting a Mexican Army. You have got an enormous number of generals and not a great many troops. You have a Minister of Cabinet rank, an Under-Secretary, and Permanent Under-Secretaries. You have got the whole set-up
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of a Ministry of Civil Aviation and you have a very able man who sits in this House, Lord Knollys, as a leading figure. Under him you are going to have these three Corporations all with their separate boards and full-time chairmen. They will all be independent to a very large extent, and they are all going to need a very considerable amount of money. Each board will have a full-time chairman, and I would like to know a little more as to what they are going to be paid. I know you have Sir Harold Hartley, a very distinguished man and a great chemist, I understand. Then there is Mr. d'Erlanger, Lord Knollys, Mr. Booth and Air Vice-Marshal Bennett. Can we be told what they are going to be paid? Would I be very far wrong if I said that Mr. d'Erlanger was receiving some £ 7,500 a year? Moreover, would I be very far wrong in saying that you have got to pay these prices for these people if you are going to set up these three big corporations?
How many people are there in this civil aviation set-up? I understand that at the moment, you have something like 18,000 men, which total may come down later on to something like 12,000 men. To look after this number you have a full-blown Cabinet Minister and all the other people forming an immense Ministry. No doubt, your Lordships are aware that the London Passenger Transport Board employs something like 250,000 people, but that Board does not have a separate Ministry. And we must remember that our finances are not unlimited at the present time. We are entitled to know where our money goes. I have never been happy about the idea that this scheme needed a completely separate Ministry such as we have got now. On that matter I do not necessarily agree with what is in the White Paper. We are to get these separate corporations employing a number of people which I do not agree need grow greater. With greater speed and carrying power of aeroplanes you will not need to employ more people but fewer. I think it is a top-heavy instrument which unless it is very carefully watched will not serve the country as the country is entitled to be served.
The question of aerodromes was mentioned by Lord Balfour. This, of course, is a very important question. I do not take the same view as Lord Balfour concerning

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Northolt. As I understand it, Northolt is merely the aerodrome which is being used for convenience sake at the moment and Heath Row is really going to be the aerodrome. Of course any other aerodrome may be used at the same time if necessary—for example, if weather conditions demand it. There is mention in the White Paper of Prestwick. As regards that airport I speak with a certain amount of trepidation and feeling because when I was a Minister I went up to Prestwick. The people there were trying to attract my attention no doubt. I got the Ministry to build a road there, and they called it after me, "Sherwood Road." I should think it is about the only road in Scotland named after an Englishman. But I was not, as the noble Viscount the present Leader of the House well knows, in a position to give any policy in those days. Therefore that seed, I am afraid, fell on a rather stony road.
I am glad, from a Scottish point of view, that Prestwick has been mentioned in this White Paper; but Heath Row is the important place, and I ask the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, if he can assure us that the Government have not quite closed their eyes on the question of the development of what is known as F.I.D.O. at Heath Row. I know it is said that the expense of this fog-dispersal apparatus is very great, but it is not great when compared to the safety it will bring to British aircraft. If you can build up Heath Row, as I believe you can, into the greatest of all airports in Europe, then you must have all these things.
As I mentioned before, there is the question of private enterprise. But private enterprise is not really able to find the money. When you think that Heath Row is going to cost at the minimum something like twenty-three millions, merely as a port that you go to, it shows that the State has got to be interested in this question of civil aviation. When I hear people say, "We can run this line without a subsidy," they are not really talking sense at all, because what they mean is: "You give us the aerodrome, the safety, and all the appliances, then perhaps we will run what is known as the booking side of it." That is where they are going to make some money. That is
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why, in my opinion, it has got to be under the State. The Minister, as I said, is a go-ahead Minister. He has got great opportunities at this time, and he has got to use them and use them fast and hard. It is a serious matter. What Lord Balfour was saying on the question of aeroplanes which are now flying was: unless you fly in British aircraft you are not going to make a success of British civil aviation. We have got to work towards that end. A new White Paper has just come out. I understand the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, is going to go through it in more detail; I myself only received it at three o'clock this afternoon. Therefore, I am not going to comment on it now. There are many things which will come up later regarding civil aviation. This is one of many debates, but it is one in which I hope your Lordships will make it clear to the Government that there are many others here who take this matter with very great seriousness and do not wish the Government but rather God-speed in their efforts.
4.52 p.m.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I do not propose to follow my noble friend who has just spoken or questions that he has addressed to the Government. I would venture just to say in passing two things. First of all, the majority of people, and members in both Houses I think, with the single exception of himself and possibly his late leader, were peculiarly insistent upon the establishment of a Ministry of Civil Aviation. Unquestionably the establishment was due to strong pressure in both Houses and in the country. Moreover, it is doing a little less than justice to the work of that Ministry to suggest that all it has to do is to look after Lord Knollys with Air Vice-Marshal Bennett. There is a vast amount of international organization which has to be undertaken. I have had some little experience of it myself, not only at Chicago, but right through the Empire. There are all the international regulations. I think my noble friend did a little less than justice to the duties which fall upon the Ministry. As regards, his criticism of my own plan, I do not think it necessary to follow him because he was, if I may say so, so admirably answered, or anticipated on the last occasion when my noble friend Lord Rennell spoke for the Liberal Party in exactly the opposite sense.

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I am not going to trouble the House with general questions which have been very rightly raised by other speakers, save only one. I should like to reinforce the appeal made to the Leader of the House to tell us a little more of what are to be the powers of the tribunal to which people may appeal. I do not think it is reasonable to say, "Well, you must wait for the Bill." After all, he will remember that, speaking in another place, the Lord President said, "We must wait a bit for the White Paper." It was not at all an unreasonable thing to say, because as he said it would hardly be useful—I paraphrase, but I think I am accurate—to produce a White Paper which was merely a repetition of the statements which the Minister had made in this House. Quite frankly I think the White Paper does not do an awful lot more than that. The only paragraph which deals with the rights of the public in appealing about fares and services is paragraph (16), which merely says:
"Machinery will be established whereby, as regards internal services, the public will be enabled to make representations concerning fares, rates …"
and so on. So far as the foreign services are concerned, there will be a tremendous competition which our airlines will have to meet all over the world, but under the Anglo-American Agreement, to which I want to devote most of my speech, the principle is laid down that the fares are to be those at which the most efficient operator can conduct his business. I think the travelling public will be sufficiently protected by the very keen competition met with on the foreign lines.
When you go into this machinery of our internal services, nobody except the Government is going to conduct those services, and therefore it is really very important to know what rights the travelling public and the great municipalities are going to have if they are dissatisfied with the fares or the service. For example, supposing Manchester or Glasgow feel that they are not adequately served in the air, under our plan they could have gone to the tribunal. The tribunal could have ordered fares or ordered facilities, or, if no services were being run, they could have given the service to any applicant whom they were satisfied was efficient. If there was an existing service, they could have enforced those conditions upon that service
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or have granted another operator the chance of doing it. Nobody, however inefficient the service, however high the rates, nobody is to be allowed to come in, and therefore the only chance which the travelling public is going to have is to go to some tribunal and make a case for lower fares or better facilities. Quite frankly, I do think it would be right for the Government, if they are going to enter into this business and take the whole of it over, to say they are to be subject to a tribunal and they would carry out the services and the rates which this independent tribunal considered reasonable. This specific point is the only domestic point I want to put to the Leader of the House, and I do hope he will be able to give us some satisfaction upon it.
I turn now to the international agreements. May I, before I come to the American Agreement, put one or two questions on other agreements. I have given my noble friend more details in respect of the questions I am going to put to him, because these international agreements are of such enormous importance that I felt it only right that he should be able to give, as I know he wants to do, his fully considered reply.
I saw in the Press that there had been negotiations at the beginning of this month with Scandinavia. A mission from the Ministry went to Scandinavia should be grateful if he would tell us what was the result of those negotiations. Similarly, there have recently been negotiations with the French Government in Paris which again, I understand from the Press, have actually reached a final conclusion, and some agreement has been made. I should be grateful if he could tell us what that agreement is. I am sure that he will readily assent to the proposition, that where these agreements are made, they should be laid before Parliament as a White Paper. That has been done in the case of the Portuguese Agreement, and it has been done, a little tardily perhaps, in the case of the Anglo-American Agreement, which I understand was available to the Press a week or a fortnight ago — at any rate a good long while ago. The Ministry did me the courtesy of sending me a copy of the Agreement a considerable time ago, but it was only made available to Parliament at three o'clock this afternoon. I am sure that the noble Viscount the Leader of the

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House will agree that when important international agreements are issued to the Press, the regular practice should be followed that they are presented to Parliament as a White Paper at the same time. It is a perfectly simple matter. You get your White Paper ready, and you tell your Press conference at 12 o'clock that they are not to publish it until 4 o'clock in the afternoon. That is an arrangement which the Press always observes. But Parliament really ought not to wait a fortnight for a most important agreement.
May I ask a question about the Portuguese Agreement which is set out in Command Papers No. 6739 and 6740? It seems to me to be a very good Agreement indeed, and dealing fully with capacity, with frequencies, with the division of traffic between the parties, with the fixing of fares, and with Fifth Freedom traffic. On all those matters there is agreement in principle. The method by which this Agreement is to be applied is clearly set out, and, what I think is of the utmost importance, there is provision that in the event of any dispute which is not easily resolved, or any question on the interpretation of the Agreement, there shall be an arbitration tribunal to do justice between the parties, and by whose decisions we and the Portuguese Government agree to be bound. I have nothing but praise for this Agreement. We are given wide powers in regard to our routes which touch Portuguese territory, and the Portuguese are given the powers they are deeply interested in having in getting easy access to their own Colonial territories, with provision for valuable and close links between the Rhodesias and the Portuguese territories. South Africa will make its own agreement. The only question I have to ask is this. Supposing the Portuguese Government grant more favourable terms to any foreign government, then under our agreement with Portugal, are those terms automatically and of right extended to us on the most-favoured-nation principle?
I now turn to the Anglo-American Agreement made at Bermuda which is in one White Paper which your Lordships will have found in the Printed Paper Office just before the debate. Everyone, I think, would support the Government in trying to get a mutually satisfactory agreement with the United States. It was obviously
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right, and I think it was probably easier, to negotiate in the calmer atmosphere of Bermuda than in the rather more hectic atmosphere of Chicago, where there were fifty-two nations represented and where Press representatives were present or had full cognizance of both those meetings which were of the most confidential character and those which were more public in nature. I think the provision by which the United States Government will have a representative of the Civil Aeronautics Administration sitting in the Ministry of Civil Aviation in London, and the corresponding provision for a representative of our Government to sit in the Aeronautics Administration in the United States, is excellent. It is a demonstration of mutual confidence and goodwill. It enables both parties to know the mind of the other, to know if there are difficulties, and to be able to discuss them rapidly, and, above all, to know what each other intends. That seems to me to be all to the good, and I am delighted that it has been arranged.
I hesitate to express a definite opinion on a good deal of this agreement until the Government has explained to us today certain points which are rather obscure. It is an agreement which is of enormous importance. I think that it is probably the most important civil aviation agreement that this country has entered into. It covers a wider field even than those agreements which I had the satisfaction of making concerning our Commonwealth routes and our Commonwealth partnership, because the traffic which will be affected will be much more extensive even than that which I hope will develop on those routes. It is bound, moreover, in its operation and provisions, to impinge on those routes, and upon our Commonwealth and Imperial air partnership, at a great many points.
In order to understand this agreement, we have to look at three documents, or at least a document in two parts, and another. There is the agreement and the annex, and these have to be read with the resolution passed at the final plenary meeting, which is perhaps the most important of all the documents. I am sure that those of us who have had experience of international agreements would agree that it is enormously important that both parties should mean the same thing, and that is all the more important

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when the language is general and when both parties have, so to speak, to put their own interpretation upon it and to operate it by their own methods. The resolution and the agreement deal with frequencies, or, as I should prefer to call it, because I think it is a better word, capacity—that is to say, the amount of air facilities, the number of aeroplanes which are to operate. They deal with Fifth Freedom traffic and they deal with rates. Let me take first of all the capacity or frequencies. That is, to be non-technical, the number of seats offered week by week upon a route. As I read the resolution and the agreement, there is, as Lord Balfour said, no control of those. I hope the noble Viscount will not hesitate to interrupt me if I am wrong at any point. Each side, that is, our operators and the United States operators, will be entitled to put on the number of aircraft which each of them thinks is right and convenient, but in accordance with certain principles.
It is essential, I think, that we should be clear on what those principles mean and how they are intended to work. Those principles are in the resolution, and that is why I said I thought the resolution was the most important of the whole chain of documents. Now I direct your Lordships' attention to four provisions which lay down the principles which we both undertake, by this sort of gentleman's agreement, to employ. Paragraph (3) of the resolution is as follows:
"That the air transport facilities available to the travelling public should bear a close relationship to the requirements of the public for such transport."
Paragraph (4) provides:
"That there shall be a fair and equal opportunity for the carriers of the two nations to operate on any route between their respective territories covered by the agreement and its annex."
Paragraph (5) provides:
"That in the operation by the air carriers of either Government of the services the interest of the air carriers of the other Government shall be taken into consideration so as not to affect unduly the services which the latter provides on all or part of the same routes."
Paragraph (7) is very important. It provides:
"That in so far as the air carrier or carriers of one Government may be temporarily prevented through difficulties arising from the war from taking immediate advantage of the opportunity referred to in paragraph (4) above—
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that is equal facilities—
"the situation shall be reviewed between the Governments with the object of facilitating the necessary development, as soon as the air carrier or carriers of the first Government—
that is in our case the United Kingdom—
"is or are in a position increasingly to make their proper contribution to the service."
As a statement of general principles, that seems reasonable, but how is it intended that those principles will work? The Agreement covers a very large number of routes going all over the world. Let me take the simplest and most straightforward case of all — the services between this country and the United States and between the United States and this country. Does paragraph (3) mean that the total capacity provided by the United States and the United Kingdom together shall in the aggregate be sufficient to provide for what is estimated to be the traffic offering? Let me put it in concrete terms. Assuming that on a liberal calculation it is estimated that there will be 1,000 passengers a week wanting to travel this Atlantic route, is it intended that the aggregate capacity which we and the United States together are to provide on an agreed load factor will be sufficient, and not more than sufficient, to take those 1,000 passengers a week? Obviously, if this principle is to work, there must be agreement on a round figure of traffic offering. 'Unless you can agree on the traffic offering, then I just do not see how the agreement is going to work at all, because the whole essential basis of this is a relation to traffic and an equilibrium between the amount of aircraft: and the amount of traffic. If that is so, how is this aggregate of traffic to be arrived at? Is each side to calculate for itself? If we have agreed upon the amount of traffic, and, therefore, upon the amount of capacity which it is reasonable to provide to deal with that traffic, how is it intended that that capacity shall be shared between the United States and the United Kingdom?
Let me observe in passing that, on any reasonable load factor, say 60 per cent., there will always be a very considerable margin for the more efficient and the more popular operator to take up. Your Lordships will appreciate what I mean by that. I will explain the position with regard to the load factor. I apologize to those who know much more about the air than I do, but I am aware of the

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difficulty in connexion with some of these technical phrases. Of course you can in theory fill up a machine 100 per cent. By that I mean that every seat is occupied and all freight space is occupied Sixty per cent load factor means that you assume that the machines will be 60 per cent full Obviously, if every aircraft has a margin between 60 per cent and 100 per cent the more efficient operator is going to have a liberal margin which he can fill up at the expense of the other. That is all to the good, and is quite sensible.
I would like to ask what is meant by "fair and equal opportunity" in paragraph (4) and by "the operations of one operator shall not unduly affect the other" in paragraph (5). Is it meant that, having agreed from time to time the capacity which will be required to carry the estimated traffic on this route, we are going to share that fifty-fifty as between ourselves and the United States? If it does not mean that, and that is not how it is to work, then I cannot see what there is to prevent either party to this agreement, ourselves or the United States, from putting on enough capacity to carry the whole or the greater part of the traffic. And is each party to be the judge of what is required? Your Lordships will observe that in the application of these principles, which are so vitally important, and which, as I say as principles I think are not unreasonable, it is not going to be Government and Government, as I read it; it is going to be airline operator and airline operator; which makes it all the more important that there should be clear understanding as to what is intended.
I come now to the operation of paragraph (7) which is inserted to provide for the case which unfortunately exists at the present time, where one operator is ready to operate and the other is not. The Americans are ready to operate 100 per cent. We are not ready. Until we can offer facilities, presumably the United States airlines will be entitled to carry the whole of the traffic. I do not think that could be resisted. You cannot have traffic offering and machines able to carry it, and say, "No, because we are not ready that traffic shall not go." That I think must be conceded. What we must do is to put ourselves in
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a position to carry our share of the traffic as soon as we possibly can. But what happens when we are ready? It is admitted that we shall start with the United States operating and carrying presumably the greater part of the Atlantic traffic and ourselves carrying only a small proportion. When we are ready to carry our proportion, what is going to happen? Is it intended that the United States air carriers will reduce their proportion of aeroplanes and that we shall increase ours? I appreciate that the traffic will increase—at any rate, we sincerely hope so—and it may be that part of our share can be taken in putting on new planes in order to cope with new traffic. But that really does not go very far to meet the case, because as traffic has been increasing all the time, so will the numbers of aeroplanes have been increasing.
Therefore you have to face the fact that the United States will be carrying, say, 80 per cent of the traffic and we shall be carrying 20 per cent of it. The agreement, as I understand it, that there shall be a fair chance for both, means that each will be able or ought to be in a position to put on enough planes, on this load factor principle, to carry half the traffic. That must mean, if it is to be carried out, that the United States will reduce their number of aircraft as we increase our number of aircraft. If not, we can get our share of the traffic only by putting on a large number of planes, while the United States' number of planes remains unreduced. In that event, it means that there would be, in fact, more planes operating than the traffic would justify, and that completely knocks the bottom out of the earlier provision that the amount of capacity shall be related to the amount of traffic.
That would have been covered by the United Nations' clause on the principle which the United States were ready to accept during the Chicago Conference. We never got it into the agreement, because the noble Viscount knows we never got a final international agreement, but I think he will be informed that in principle it was agreed that it would be a reasonable thing to put in a United Nations' clause on those lines. I appreciate you have paragraph (7) of the resolution, which bays that when we are in a position to carry our share of the traffic

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there will be a review, but I do want to know on what principles that review will be conducted.
I am dealing still with the vitally important question of capacity, and I want to know what is to be the machinery for settling disputes. Disputes over this, as I have indicated, are going to arise between airline and airline and not primarily between Government and Government. I know in our case the airline is owned by the Government, but in the case of the United States it will not be the Government, because they are not going to own the airlines. I think the noble Lord who spoke from the Liberal Benches takes a very extreme view of nationalization if he denies that the Americans have made any success of air enterprise. I hope the Government are going to make a success of it, but certainly to say that the only way in which you can make a success of an air line is to nationalize it, is slightly shutting one's eyes to Pan-American, T.W.A., American Export Lines and the other lines which at this moment are traversing the world.
What is to be the machinery? In the case of rates you have the complete machinery, but as regards capacity, as I read the resolution—and there is nothing in the agreement about it at all, unless I am wrong—there is no provision even for an advisory opinion to be obtained from the Provisional International Civil Aviation Organization. I think I have got its right name. It is known, as everything is known by a nickname to-day, as "P.I.C.A.O." There is not even, apparently, an advisory opinion to be obtained. It therefore is tremendously important, if this is to be interpreted in good faith by the airline operators, that we should know what it means at the start, otherwise I am quite sure there must be a great deal of misunderstanding and recrimination.
I am turning now to the agreement, and I want to ask what is the effect of Article (12) (c) of the agreement. It concerns the term "territory." It looks to me satisfactory. The noble Viscount will know, and certainly those instructing him will know very well, that there was a great deal of discussion at Chicago as to whether we were to put in the word "territory" or the word" homeland," and, well supported from this homeland, I contended stoutly, and I am glad to say
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successfully, that the word to be used in all these agreements should be "territory." That meant that British territory included not only the homeland, the United Kingdom, but also all our Colonial possessions, Mandated Territories and Protectorates. Of course the great importance of that is that provided territory is so defined, you have the right of cabotage between this country and the Colonies and between one Colony and another, exactly as the Americans enjoy cabotage all over the United States. I think the position is plain, but I want the noble Viscount to confirm to me that we have not sacrificed in any way our right of cabotage over British territories, as so defined to include all our Colonies and our Mandated Territories. I apologize for dealing with this at such length, but I think the agreement is so vitally important that in this debate we ought to clarify the whole position.
I come to the Fifth Freedom which figures in paragraph (6) of the resolution. The principles seem to me quite unexceptionable; indeed, they are the tests which I ventured to propound at Chicago and which I am glad to say seem to have been lifted almost verbatim from my proposals into the agreement. They are tests and principles which Mr. Ted Wright, the head of the American Civil Aeronautics Administration, who has an unrivalled practical experience, said he felt were essentially fair. Therefore I have nothing to say against them. Moreover, I support the further provision which has been inserted that in operating these airlines there may be a change of gauge, provided always that in changing gauge we conform to the principles which are laid down governing through lines and governing this Fifth Freedom of traffic. It seems to me that that is obviously sound, not only in operation, but in the interests of this country. By a "change of gauge" is meant this. Supposing you have got an aeroplane which is going from New York to Calcutta, you shall be entitled to run a large aeroplane from New York to London and a smaller aeroplane on from London to Calcutta, provided the change of gauge is not so designed or so operated as to give a man a stepping off ground for what is not a through service but an entirely new service.
It seems to me to be essentially good sense, provided, as I understand this

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does provide, that you shall gauge what you are entitled to run by the amount of traffic starting at the point of departure, that is New York, and destined for Calcutta. If it is found that there will be only, say, one-third of the number of passengers who want to go on from London to Calcutta, having started from New York, then it seems to me obviously good sense that you should run a small aeroplane with that one-third of the passengers from London to Calcutta and not run a vast aeroplane like a Constellation the whole way. Indeed, if you did run a Constellation through, you obviously would have an enormous amount of unoccupied space upon it, and then an operator would say, "The economic running of my aircraft is one of the principles to be observed in Fifth Freedom traffic, and I ought to be able to fill all the vacant seats in an aeroplane carrying fifty passengers instead of the odd scats in an aeroplane carrying twenty." That seems to me to be good sense provided the principles are observed. Here, again, what I regret is the absence of any tribunal.
This Fifth Freedom traffic may give rise to disputes not only affecting the two countries which make the agreement; it is necessary to get agreements with all the countries along the routes which are running their local and their regional services. I am sure the noble Viscount will agree that it really is most desirable that there should be some tribunal by which we should all agree to be bound. I know there is Article (13) which gives the power to determine this agreement on twelve months' notice if we do not think it is working well. That really is an entirely academic clause, as I am sure will be agreed. These great airlines are being started all over the world. If your Lordships will look at the schedule to the agreement, you will see that the airlines really cover almost the whole habitable globe. Is it really to be supposed that when all these vast airlines have been running for a year or two, if the agreement is not working satisfactorily one or other of us will give notice and say, "The whole air-traffic of the world is to be stopped"? I have always regarded that clause as wholly academic.
Now I come to the question of rates. Here the provisions are much more
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definite and complete. I hope the noble Viscount will check me on this to see that I have read this combined document rightly. First of all, the principle is that the minimum fare which an airline can Charge is to be in effect the cheapest rate at which the most efficient operator can operate at a reasonable profit. That seems to me to be eminently right. Moreover, the United States Executive are going to seek power from Congress to enforce these minimum rates upon their airlines, and I hope they will get it. But as a matter of fact, my information is that most of the airlines in the United States think this is reasonable. They want to be able to operate at the rate at which the most efficient operator can operate, but they do not want a rate-cutting war either between themselves or with other people. If they can operate at cheaper rates than we can, then they certainly should have the right to do that, but I think we should avoid a rate-cutting war. As soon as there is power to enforce a rate, each side will enforce the rate which will be either the rate which has been settled by I.A.T.A., that is the inter-company arrangements, or the rate which has been recommended by P.I.C.A.O. Until those powers are obtained, either party can reject the rate which is proposed. Obviously, the decision on rates ought to be prompt, because the rate, as I read it, comes into force provisionally.
I would like to ask these questions on that. If there is a failure to agree, the rate goes to this provisional organization, P.I.C.A.O. Has the P.I.C.A.O. executive got the power to decide this? Can it accept a decision by the majority? I hope so, because obviously the decision should be rapid. Is there any risk of delay by the fact that anybody can request the executive of P.I.C.A.O. to send the matter to the full assembly, which only meets at rare intervals? Those are the questions I would ask. I have put a great many questions, but I think the noble Viscount will agree that they are very right and proper questions to put in order that we may know what this agreement means, because we do not want to enter into the biggest agreement into which we have ever entered as regards the air without knowing what it means. Nothing could be worse for international relationships than to enter into agreements containing formulae

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which may mean different things to different people.
I would sum up as far as I can. As regards rates, I think you have established the economic standard of the most efficient operator. I think that is in the public interest, and I think it ought to avoid uneconomic rate wars countered by subsidies. That seems to me to be entirely sound, and it seems to me there is an effective way of enforcing those rates. As regards the Fifth Freedom, I think those principles are sound and in the interests of the travelling public, and if they are fairly observed, they ought to serve air transport well and to be fair to the countries along the route. As regards capacity, I do not think any of us could express a fair opinion or pass judgment until we know what the real interpretation and intention is on the basis of these questions which I have put about this agreement to-day. I frankly regret the absence of an arbitral authority. We have got it as regards fares, but I wish it existed—and I hope I can be shown that it does—as regards other matters.
With good faith and good will there may be few differences, but I am quite sure that the existence of an impartial authority with full knowledge—it can be quite small as long as it is competent—is not only right, but is an incentive to airline operators to come to reasonable agreement. This very desirable because, as I have said, as I read the Agreement, while the Governments can make recommendations or representations, capacity, frequencies, and the Fifth Freedom principles will fall to be decided, not by the Governments, but by the airline operators themselves. I say only one word in conclusion, and I say it to set this agreement in its true perspective. In the long run, whatever the agreements that Governments may enter into, success will depend on the efficiency of the operator, on the skill of the manufacturer who designs and builds the planes and on close co-operation between them both.
5.40 p.m.
LORD ROCHDALE: My Lords, in rising to speak I would like to ask your Lordships for that indulgence which is normally granted to those who address your Lordships' House for the first time. I will confine my remarks to Command Paper 6712, "British Air Services." With the provisions in that Paper I find I am largely in agreement—at any rate
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with those provisions which deal with the immediate future, even if I find the provisions for a possible international air organization in the far distant future less easy to swallow. My agreement is based not on any theoretical or general liking for nationalization as such, nor because I have any particular disagreement with existing private air companies. In fact, I have the greatest admiration for the work that existing companies have done in the past and for the achievements which, often in very difficult circumstances, they have accomplished. My agreement with the provisions of the White Paper is rather due to the fact that I believe that great decisions on matters of this nature, decisions as to whether a service is to be nationalized or not, must in each instance be taken on the merits of the case. In British civil aviation I feel that we have as clear a case as possible for deciding in favour of a nationally owned institution or rather a nationally owned service. I. know there are many to remind us all too often that with a new institution, a new trade, the freedom of private enterprise without the braking effect of Government control is essential. And, indeed, there are many sound reasons for an argument of this nature, and in many cases I would subscribe to them myself. But as applied to civil aviation I would submit that an argument of that nature is not sound.
I claim, with all humility, to have had a certain amount of experience both before and during the war in different parts of the world. I admit that my experience has been largely, though not entirely, as a passenger, but even a passenger, if he is an interested passenger, can learn very good lessons, and one of the points that has struck me and impressed itself on my mind most firmly has been the vastness of any large civil air organization and the enormous number of ramifications that are inseparable from it. For example, they are inseparable from, shall we say, a trunk route passing from this country to the other hemisphere. I submit that the mere provision and operation of aircraft: is only one of the many great problems that have to be dealt with when considering civil aviation. There are many others. There are the problems of the airfields with all the buildings that go to make a modern air base. There are the problems relating to the provision of radio and radar control, meteorological services and so on.

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I am well aware that as a result of the discussions that took place, and the agreements that were arrived at in Chicago, certain countries have undertaken to provide these services at the airfields in their own territories. But I feel certain that with our long Empire and other overseas routes there will be instances where the existing facilities will not be adequate for our requirements and where they will have to be augmented or, may be, even provided in toto for our particular services. Who is going to provide them? Are private airlines going to be expected to provide them? I suggest not. They must inevitably be a Government provision. There is another matter that is ancillary to flying itself, and that is the provision of petrol. It is a formidable task, the providing of petrol throughout the world, and I submit one that raises problems that can be far more easily solved if the service is nationally owned.
Again, there are the facilities necessary to comply with the various emigration or Customs regulations of the countries through which these services operate. There may be police arrangements to co-ordinate, and I do not think it is stretching one's imagination too far to suggest that, at any rate in these days, there may still be cases where questions of airfield defence may have to be co-ordinated. I have mentioned only some of the various problems that arise in connexion with the vast 'subject of civil airlines, but I hope that they will be sufficient to emphasize the magnitude and, particularly, the complexities of such an organization. I believe that these problems—the few that I have mentioned—are, in themselves, quite sufficient to justify the nationalization of our airlines. But, even if they are not, then I believe it is possible for a case for them to be nationalized to be made out merely on the provision of the right type of aircraft. I would take just one example. I am given to understand that in the case of flying boats it is not possible to show a return on a profit and loss basis, even on such a route as the Malayan coast route. In other words that type of aircraft is not justified on economic grounds. Apart from the provision of the aircraft there are the very heavy expenses in the provision of slipways, harbours, hangars and so forth to be considered. As I say, those aircraft cannot be shown
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to be economic on a profit and loss basis. Nevertheless those flying boats are a great national asset. They are aircraft that have already been a peculiar success—I may say peculiarly British success—and they are a type of aircraft which cannot be allowed to lapse. They must be continued, tested and proved up to perfection. I believe that that cannot be done without substantial subsidies. Now that is just one instance, I suggest, showing that on the provision of aircraft alone we have a sound case for nationalizing our civil air services.
To return to my argument I would like to draw a parallel between the growth of our civil airlines and the growth many years ago of the East India Company. The East India Company, as no doubt your Lordships know, grew to such an extent that it acquired, in addition to its initial responsibilities, many other unexpected responsibilities and problems until the time came when, so far from being merely a private trading undertaking, it became such a concern that the Government of the day had to step in and take over the authority of the directors and the Board of Control and transfer them to a Secretary of State. Now I know that no analogies are absolutely foolproof—that none of them fit entirely—but I hope that this analogy will bring out the point that our great civil airlines are particularly complex in their structure, and must inevitably be so. On that basis, I agree with the decision in the White Paper that these services should be Government-owned. I submit that whether our civil airlines are to be run by Government or private enterprise the facilities that it is their purpose to provide become a really national interest. It is essential that they shall be maintained in such a way as to ensure that people travelling to and from this country, whether British subjects or otherwise, whether engaged in commerce or matters of defence, whether diplomats or politicians, or just plain Mr. and Mrs. Smith trying to find out something about other countries and so broaden their points of view, may be carried rapidly and expeditiously and with a reasonable degree of comfort.
If it is agreed that these facilities are a national necessity—as I believe it is so agreed—then surely the country should be prepared to pay for them. And I feel

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confident that it is prepared to pay for them—in other words to subsidize them, at any rate in the early stages, to a substantial amount. I know that, quite rightly, it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to make these corporations self-supporting as soon as possible. But I do not see how this can possibly come about for some time to come, if—and I would emphasize that word "if"—we are to deal with the whole problem in a sufficiently bold and far-seeing way.
As a counter-argument to that, one could quote the case of the sea-going liners. I would suggest that the comparison does not really hold water, because after all, the harbours that our sea-going ships used were built at a time when costs were different from what they are to-day. I think I am right in saying that to-day our greatest liners have only been built with the assistance of a certain amount of State money. It has already been mentioned during this debate that during the last six years, through no fault of our own, but largely through a very rightful determination during the war to stake everything on winning the war first, our civil aviation has fallen short of other countries. But, my Lords, I am sure you will agree that it is essential that that setback should be allowed to be only a very temporary one, and that everything possible should be done to ensure that we catch up those others that are ahead of us at the earliest possible moment, so that we will once more be in the position to lead the world in matters of world transport.
That brings me to my next point. I said that we should regard our civil aeroplanes as fulfilling a function very similar to the function that His Majesty's ships often fulfilled when they paid calls at ports in other parts of the Empire or in friendly countries; in other words, as fulfilling the function of Ambassadors. I suggest that our civil aircraft, going as they will go into many far-flung parts of the world, often out of the way, will be the only British things which the people in those countries will see. If the service is good, credit will go not particularly to the service as a whole but to this country. If the service is bad, and run in a slovenly manner and poorly administered, the stigma also will go to This country. So I submit that, seeing that this country is going to have to bear the kicks or the kudos, and will also
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have to have a very considerable part in running these services, at any rate in the next few years, it is only right and logical that the country itself should own those air services.
We have heard this afternoon a certain critical comparison between this country's air-services and those of the United States. I am perfectly well aware that the services in the United States are good often extremely good, but from my own experience I do suggest that there are still instances where they could learn useful lessons from some of our practice. The point I want to bring out is tins: In the United States, as we have already been told, services are entirely privately owned, and that is an argument against nationalizing ours. But I submit that the case is not comparable. In the United States, which is a very large country, they have had the greatest opportunities for developing in sheltered circumstances very fine private air-lines. Whereas with us we have by far the largest amounts of our civil aviation overseas, in the case of the United States a relatively small part of their airlines go overseas.
I would like to take a comparison in the case of motor cars, which I think is a good one. In America there is a very large private market for the purchase of private motor cars and, as a result of that large market, they have been able to develop only a comparatively small overseas market; and they have had great success in it. In the same way, surely the profits accruing to the private airlines in the large internal air services of the United States will, either directly or indirectly, be in effect giving a subsidy to their overseas allies; in other words, the position as between this country's air-lines and America's air-lines does not really bear comparison. It has also been suggested that, if 'we are going to have these Government-owned Corporations, there should not be so many as three, in order that the cost of administration may be kept down.
I would like to suggest that the case is comparable to the case of the Commanders-in-Chief of our Fighting Services during the war. During the war you had various theatres with their Commanders-in-Chief; you had one in South East Asia, one 171 India, one in the Mediterranean theatre and one in Europe, just to mention a few of them. They did not compete with one another; they each carried

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out the task allotted to them in the way best suited to their particular theatre. They drew on certain common resources both of trained men and materials, and received general direction from the Chiefs of Staff at home. I submit that the same is true of our civil aviation at home: there should be a measure of centralized control at home, a measure of centralization for the provision of basically trained air crews, the provision of aircraft, and general management; but within that framework there should be considerable latitude to the three corporations which it is proposed to set up.
So far I have been in substantial agreement with the present Government's White Paper, but there are two points which I am less sure of. I might mention—but I will certainly avoid doing so, as not being an entirely disinterested party—the question of compensation. The point I feel most strongly about is that of the proposals for development in the future. There does not seem to me to be in the White Paper that sense of the vital need for urgency which is so essential in these days. I do not entirely criticize the White Paper for the omission, because I believe that in a White Paper of this kind the question of urgency would be rather difficult to introduce; but I would urge His Majesty's Government to bear that need for urgency in mind when nominating the individuals to the boards and the corporations and also at the appropriate time and place to make it abundantly clear to the boards that they will be required to act in a way which shows real imagination and the consciousness of urgency. I do not think I am coining a word if I say that I would ask that they should show Wellsian imagination and vision. Admittedly, that is sometimes not quite in our national character. We are rather inclined to go slowly, steadily, and stolidly, step by step, but there are occasions when we have streaks of genius. We have seen it in the war in the case of such great constructions as "Pluto," the pipe line under the ocean, aircraft construction, and the "Mulberries." I suggest that that vision and far-sightedness, which went to build great achievements like that are exactly what we require now in the case of civil aviation.
Admittedly, if we are going to act on these lines of bold forward policy, it
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means spending considerably greater sums of money than we might, perhaps, do otherwise, but it will not be money well spent, but money well invested. We shall get our return for it conscious of the fact that, with the technical knowledge that we have, we can afford to advance by larger strides than we have been doing so far. I am alluding more to types of aircraft. I have not available any of the trade secrets, so that I do not know what aircraft are actually on the drawing boards today. It may be that there are aircraft which fully come up to the ideas I have in mind, but from what one has read in the papers and elsewhere, I am inclined to doubt it. Whatever the position is in that respect, I most strongly urge that the whole matter be regarded as one of urgency, one needing boldness of vision, and that this should be impressed over and over again upon the boards and the corporations. Otherwise, I fear that the advantages I see in having nationally-owned corporations will not be made the fullest use of, and as a result a very great opportunity for British civil aviation will be lost.
6.5 p.m.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, I must express my gratification that the noble Lord in his maiden speech (although I scarcely expected it) rendered such yeoman service to the general scheme of the Government's project. I feel that in receiving support from so many different quarters the scheme receives striking testimony to its essential soundness. At the same time, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Sempill—who has very kindly given way to me, although he has a number of questions to ask afterwards—in view of other engagements which I am unavoidably required to keep. I will do my best to act as substitute for my noble friend who is away. Unfortunately, he had to be in Australia or Wellington, as the case may be, to-day, in connexion with some large-scale international conferences affecting air transport in the Pacific and in those parts of the world. I will do my best, and in so far as I do not meet the requirements of my skilled questioners, whom I see particularly on the Front Opposition Bench, I hope they will overlook the deficiencies and reserve further ammunition for my noble friend when he returns.
I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, need have any

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misgiving that this Government is not fully seized of the urgency of this matter, nor need my noble friend behind me. We shall produce the Bill as soon as we can. I am not going to be so rash as to prophesy a particular date, but I can tell them in fact that the preparations of the Bill are very considerably advanced. I will not say anything more on that. It is true that at the end of the War this country found itself behindhand as compared with America with regard to the position of civil aircraft, and the reason for that is well known. This country devoted its air production capacity to the production of fighter machines, and therefore we were not forward in this particular sphere, whereas our American Allies of necessity, partly for geographical reasons, had to produce a much larger number of machines serving transport purposes.
I am sure that nobody knows better than the noble Lord that you cannot produce carefully designed, properly manufactured aircraft in a month or two. As with every other exceedingly complicated machine of this sort, it is, I am afraid, a question of a year or two—it is no good pretending that it is not—before you can have an adequate supply of new machines. I cannot give a better illustration of that than the one provided by the noble Lord himself. It has been my business in connexion with my Ministerial duties to survey the requirements of this particular side of civil aviation, and I came across the case of the Brabazon I to which the noble Lord referred. What are the actual facts? The actual facts concerning this great machine, which I believe has great promise when it gets into the air, are that it will take a long time to build, say a couple of years from the time it is started. But what do we find? We find that the runway for the machine is only about half long enough for it to get off the ground when it is made. I confess to being an amateur in these matters, but that does not seem to me to be a testimonial to the foresight of those who planned the arrangements.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: Stafford Cripps.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: At the same time, when you do make the runway, you will have to knock down about thirty houses. I only mention that as one of
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the difficulties with which we are confronted. It is not the responsibility of my noble friend who is in Australia. There are several other difficulties of a like nature, and one is that you will have to divert a road. Another is that you will have to build a shed big enough for the thing when it is made, and this will cost money certainly running into millions. Well, quite frankly, this Government cannot be blamed for a lack of anticipation of that magnitude. We really cannot accept responsibility for that. I think that is an actual fact with regard to that particular machine, and we are getting busy on it as quickly as ever we can. I hope the noble Lord and his friends, when the Bill comes before us, as it will have to do, to enable us to acquire the land and do all the rest of it, in order to enable this magnificent machine, when it is built, to get off the ground, will facilitate its passage by all the means available to them.
The noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, asked me something about chartering. Well, I think the case is fairly well stated in the White Paper. On the question of chartering, I think he said it was to supply individual needs. I think, taking it generally, there is nothing very bad about that definition. The proposals with regard to chartering are I think fairly clear and satisfactory. For instance, it means that the corporation will give a licence for chartering to those who want to have the machines for specific and special purposes, but it does not contemplate that the meaning of the word "chartering" is for another organization to set up a regular competitive service. That is to say, you would not charter an organization proposing to run a daily service, we will say, between Aberdeen and London. That would not be chartering. That would be setting up a new service, and it would be the duty of the Corporation, if it did its business properly to serve the needs of the community, to provide the service; but if, we will say, Cooks Tours or the Y.M.C.A. or anybody else wanted to charter machines for special purposes it would be perfectly open to thorn to do so and it is contemplated that chartering for these kinds of cases would be facilitated. That is, I understand, the meaning of the term.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: May I interrupt the noble Viscount? I think he must have been mistaken. As I understand it, he said that the corporation would permit chartering, that the corporation would be allowed to run chartered planes, but the ordinary individual charterer will not have to apply to the corporation.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: The individual charterer—
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I mean the man who wants to run chartered planes as a business; he will not have to get the leave of the corporation.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: Oh, yes.
VISCOUNT SWINTON. He will?
VISCOUNT ADDISON: Oh, yes, certainly. It would not be admissible for any person to run a private line of his own.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Not a line—charter planes.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: Well, it is the same thing, is it not? It depends upon what is the margin between chartering and running a regular service. I understood the noble Viscount to mean a regular service, which, of course, as I understand the term, would not be chartering. I will come to the question of fares when I answer the noble Viscount on the much more comprehensive series of questions affecting the Bermuda Agreement. The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, raised the question of airports. I think, quite frankly, that he was rather labouring something that is not likely to exist in real life. Municipalities will not set up airports unless they see there is some very, very special reason for doing so. An airport is a very, very expensive undertaking. I was looking myself at the figures for the concrete runways required to get this Brabazon I into the air. I must say I was appalled at the cost per yard of these things and I am perfectly certain nobody will be starting to provide airports unless there is some real necessity for them. So far as the airports required for the corporation are concerned, as has already been stated, they are to be nationally owned. I should think myself that the demand for airports, apart from those nationally owned, in the course of time would be relatively insignificant.
I was glad to receive the general support of the noble Lord, Lord
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Sherwood, and of course his criticism with regard to there being three corporations instead of one is quite a fair criticism to make, but, after all, as the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, pointed out in showing this list of places indicated' in this White Paper, this business is spread all over the world, and I am inclined to think that the decision to establish the three corporations, one limited to the United Kingdom and the European Services, another the far-distant Empire services, and the third the South Atlantic service, was the right way to begin. The course of development and experience may perhaps show that you may have coalescence; I do not know. In the course of the future it might be thought wise to facilitate that kind of thing, but certainly for the time being in the light of our present experience I do not think myself it would have been a manageable job if you had one corporation. So far as expense and salaries are concerned, I am afraid I should require notice of these questions, but they will duly emerge when the Bill comes before us.
I would like to take in conjunction with same of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, the very long series of questions that the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, addressed to me, and I will do my best, not being the Minister of Civil Aviation, to deal with those matters. In the first place, the noble Lord enquired whether we had had any discussions, I think it was, with Scandinavia. I will give the answer. It had been arranged for the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Civil Aviation to lead a delegation to Denmark, Norway and Sweden on the 4th of February. In the event he was unable to go at that time, but the other members of the delegation, consisting of representatives of the Ministry of Civil Aviation, of the Foreign Office and of the British Overseas Airways Corporation left as arranged. In their discussions at Copenhagen, Oslo and Stockholm, they carried on negotiations as far as was possible at the official level, and it is hoped to resume negotiations at the Ministerial level and conclude an arrangement in the near future.
With regard to France, an agreement between the United Kingdom and France was negotiated in Paris last week by a delegation headed by the Parliamentary Secretary, and including representatives

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of the Ministry of Civil Aviation, the Foreign Office, the Colonial Office and the Overseas Airways Corporation. It was initialled at the Quai D'Orsay on Saturday, February 23, and referred to the two Governments for their consideration. Both Governments have now approved it, and that agreement is to be signed at the Foreign Office (or I suppose was signed) at mid-day to-day. It is on the lines of the old agreement. With the safeguards which it contains, I think it will appeal to the noble Lord as an excellent agreement, and I believe it will receive his hearty support.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: It is on the lines of the Portuguese one.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I am coming to that.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I mean is it on the same lines?
VISCOUNT ADDISON: On the same lines. I do not think I need trouble the House at this time with the details. I have got them all here, but it is on the same lines. There is to be a joint standing committee to co-ordinate the services. Dealing with the agreement with Portugal, I can answer in the affirmative the question addressed to me by the noble Viscount. In the event of its being proposed that other countries should have improved facilities, those better terms are extended automatically to the United Kingdom. I would like to thank him very sincerely—although he was naturally and quite properly critical—for the general support which he gave to the scope of the understanding which the Bermuda agreement really implied. I think it is a great step forward in international agreement. However, with regard to that matter, I cannot possibly, answer and I do not think it would be possible anyhow to answer, all the noble Viscount's interrogations at this stage.
A great many of them are, as he himself would have said if he had been answering the questions in another place, hypothetical, and some of them are of a very far-reaching kind; but I will do my best to reply to him with regard to the machinery that is to be set up to deal with difficulties as they may arise. In doing so, I must crave your indulgence at not being sufficiently familiar, or not being as familiar perhaps as some are, with the
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technical jargon which appears to surround this subject. I have done my best, when I have seen these mysterious concatenations of capital letters, to find out what they mean. I do not say it has always been attended with success, but I have done my best.
With regard to the question of fares, I think the noble Viscount expressed himself, on the whole, as reasonably satisfied with the machinery that is set up for dealing with disputes. The point, however, is that in any dispute arising between parties, Article (9)—to which the noble Viscount referred and of which I have a note here—is the one which is really in question. It says:
"Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement or its Annex, any dispute between the Contracting Parties relating to interpretation or application of this Agreement which cannot be settled through consultation shall be referred for an advisory report to the Interim Council of the Provisional International Civil Aviation Organization"—
that is this body which is called P.I.C.A.O. It is a very authoritative body which it is agreed should be set up, and any dispute arising between the parties on any matter which they cannot settle between themselves is automatically referred to this organization.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: It is quite important. Would the noble Viscount tell us one thing? This refers to a dispute under the agreement or the annex. If there is a dispute or question of interpretation of the resolution, which really contains so much that is important, is that also covered by Article (9), and would there be a right of appeal to P.I.C.A.O. on the construction and operation of the resolution?
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I think the answer to that is in the affirmative.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am very glad to hear it.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: Yes, I am informed it is. I thought it was but, as I said, that was subject to authorization, but I am glad to find out that it is. That is the machinery for the settlement of disputes and, of course, only experience can really decide how useful and effective it is. In this country, the organization being a Government-owned body, the Government itself will be held responsible for its decisions and it will be subject to criticism and daily interrogation in Parliament.

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In the case of the United States there is not a similar authority at the present time, and, as the noble Viscount knows, it is part of the project of the scheme that such authority shall be obtained.
Then the noble Viscount raised a very important point with regard to seeing how we could secure that fair and equal opportunity for the two parties could be obtained. As he said, quite correctly, so far as that is concerned the United States have a great start over ourselves, but I think that paragraphs (4) and (5) to which he referred quite fairly cover the point. It is perfectly evident that as things develop in the course of time, the tribunal which will be set up to consider disputes or questions will be able to adjudicate on the difficulties as they arise. In paragraph (7) it is said that:
"In so far as the air carrier or carriers of one Government may be temporarily prevented through difficulties arising from the war from taking immediate advantage of the opportunity referred to, the situation shall be reviewed between the Governments with the object of facilitating the necessary development as soon as the air-carrier…"
and so on.
That is clearly designed in order to meet the kind of development to which the noble Viscount has referred. Then he asked me about the meaning of the word "territory." I can give him a definite answer in the way he desires. The word "territory" is held to mean all land areas under the sovereignty, suzerainty, protection or mandate of the State, and therefore it includes the lot. That gives him a satisfactory answer to his question.
I would like to make another observation on what is called the change of gauge. That matter, I may tell the House, was the subject of long and anxious consideration and the interchange of many telegrams between ourselves and our representatives out there. I think, however, it is fair to say that the agreement represents a very satisfactory arrangement. To try to put it simply, what it comes to is this: that if a large plane coming, we will say, from the United States, is carrying, let us say, fifty passengers, and thirty-five of them are going to land in the United Kingdom and the other fifteen are going elsewhere, it would not be economical to have a big machine like that to take the fifteen. That would not be reasonable.
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Therefore it is arranged and agreed that they should change to a smaller machine which will take the balance of the passengers. Supposing the smaller machine will take twenty, then the air-carriers will be entitled to fill up the five vacant seats, but they would not be entitled to the provision of a further service which would be out of proportion to the number of persons requiring the transport. That is what it comes to in ordinary sensible English, but how it is interpreted in technicalities I will not venture to describe. That is what it means and that is what these "fill-up rights" involve.
I think the agreement which was arrived at on that matter and set out in paragraph (6) is more particularly referred to at the very end of the whole document in Chapter V. There it is described in detail in sections (a), (b) and (c), but I think I have given quite accurately and fairly the description of the arrangement that is contemplated. It is set out there quite clearly and I do not think I need trouble the House by reading the details. I have done my best to answer, as well as I can, all the questions of which I have been able to make a note.
6.30 p.m.
LORD SEMPILL: My Lords, I was glad indeed to stand down in favour of the noble Viscount, the Leader of your Lordships' House, who has a very important matter to attend to somewhere else. I would like to make a few technical observations in regard to the White Paper Cmd. No. 6712, and not in regard to the one that has been in the hands of some of your Lordships for about an hour or so. I would congratulate my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye on initiating this important debate. I would also congratulate the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, on his contribution to it, and others of your Lordships who have spoken. I am in agreement with the points made, with the exception of those made by the noble Lord, Lord Rochdale, with such vigour in regard to the nationalization of air transport.
In Section 9 of the White Paper, which deals with the constitution of the boards, reference is made to the inclusion thereon of those who have expert knowledge on the major aspects of airline operation. That, of course, is a very good thing, but

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it does not go nearly far enough. I hope that the noble Viscount, the Leader of your Lordships' House, will be able to assure your Lordships that it is the definite policy of His Majesty's Government to include in the three national corporations all those who have played some part in the development of air transport, either on the technical or operational side. These people are not very numerous, and it should not be difficult to seek them out wherever they may be. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Winster, might employ a few talent scouts to go out to seek these people and bring them into the fold of one or other of the big State Corporations. We have got a tremendous job to do, and we obviously want to make use of all those who have some experience.
I must apologize to your Lordships for the fact that in the debate in your Lordships' House on air transport in Scotland on the 14th February last, I committed what the noble Lord, Lord Winster, considered to be an indiscretion by asking him whether a certain member of another place, a great pioneer in air transport, would be eligible for a seat on the board of a Scottish air transport corporation should one be found. I apologize to your Lordships for any indiscretion of which I have been guilty, and I hope your Lordships will overlook it. Those of us who have been a long time in the world of aviation are very anxious that any and all with some experience of air transport should be used, and it was certainly surprising to me to be made aware by the noble Lord, Lord Winster, that any member of another place with experience of aeronautics could not be on the board of any of these Corporations in a paid or unpaid capacity.
Section 11 deals with the problems of maintenance and overhaul of aircraft engines and ancillary equipment. The idea of a centralized repair depot into which all equipment will ultimately flow for repair may sound all right in theory and commend itself to those with not much experience in these matters, particularly to those with accountancy minds. I hope that such a plan will not be given effect to as it completely disregards the psychological side and merely regards this world-wide enterprise of air transport as an enormous collection of bureaucratic robots manipulating apparatus that flies.
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Section 14, dealing with interim arrangements, states that no delay in starting British air services will be countenanced. This bold and definite assertion is watered down in the next sentence, wherein it is said "but supply of aircraft is the governing factor". Surely the Minister of Civil Aviation has the power to speed very considerably the development of the air transports of different types which are now being built. There is room for a considerable speed-up and if the urge that was applied by the aircraft industry with such good effect during the war were applied at this present period things would move very much more rapidly. A great deal more should be done in this direction by speeding up the design, the building and the development of different forms of air transports.
Sections 19–24 deal with airports and landing grounds, about which there has been much said in the debate today. Those of your Lordships who have already spoken are very well aware that the most important factor in an efficient air transport undertaking is that of ground organization. That has been stressed on many previous occasions by the noble Viscount Lord Swinton. Unless such exists it is impossible to operate air transports (no matter how efficient the crews may be or how modern the machines themselves may be) with safety and regularity. Section 2I, dealing with airports, which are technically to be described in the new terminology as "designated airports," stresses the need for their careful selection and says they are to be equipped to standards that are internationally agreed.
As we have heard before, Hum, Prestwick, and another airport not mentioned, are for the moment to be used as trans-Atlantic terminals, the former three just mentioned until Heath Row is ready. It is obvious that some time must elapse before that time arrives. The noble Viscount will be well aware that in a previous debate in your Lordships' House reference was made to the utterly inadequate arrangements for the transportation of passengers from the present terminal at Hum to London. For example, the recent first flight of that splendid American air transport, the Constellation, from New York to London involved passengers in spending seine 50 per cent of their elapsed time between leaving the centre of New York and arriving in the centre of London in travelling from Hurn to

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London. Surely the Minister for Civil Aviation could manage, even as a temporary measure, for Northolt to be used, to cut down that delay. When this matter was last debated the Minister said he would give very earnest consideration to this question, and I hope that his deliberations may have been completed and that some effective new plan will be announced.
My noble friend Lord Winster and others under him have regaled us with many uplifting speeches as to all that is being done and should be done in regard to the development of air transport. I must say he has been particularly hard on those of us who, speaking with some experience of all that the United States air transport operators are doing, have endeavoured to show how much is to be learnt from them, the greatest air carriers in the world to-day. These official pronouncements with regard to airports have very naturally been reflected in the Press, and The Times, for example, a short time ago called Heath Row "the finest airport in 'Europe." That Britain should have, and could have, not only the finest terminal airport in Europe but the finest airport in the world is beyond question, but there is no sign at all that so essentially desirable a plan is to be realized, and it is perfectly clear to all who have studied this matter—and it is an involved technical one—that Heath Row is not, and can never be, classed as a modern terminal or "designated" airport worthy of the name. Your Lordships will, I hope, allow me to expand on this very important matter, which is one in which I have been interested for a considerable time. The noble Lord who initiated this Motion has great pilotage experience and is, I think I may say, the only Spitfire pilot in your Lordships' house. He will well understand the importance of these matters.
There are three categories of airports: parallel, triangular and tangential. There are many of the first two mentioned arrangements in operation over the world, three of the last mentioned—the tangential—are under construction, and, of these, two are in partial operation. The three forms into which I have divided these do not mean that there are not a large number of grass-covered
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aerodromes of the old type that will be very useful for charter flying, flying clubs and private flying, but would not be suitable for the large types of air transport in use for international traffic today.
A number of years ago, twenty or more, the Aeronautical Research Committee, the first body of its kind in the world, which about three decades ago received the support of the Government, was asked to look into this question of aerodrome planning, and after great deliberation it propounded a plan which, in effect, is the tangential layout to which I have already referred. Of course, that was in the days when aircraft were of small size. Their weight was not very great and, therefore, the plan did not envisage the use of prepared runways. But it did envisage a large open space in the centre of which was the control organization, the hangars and all the other ground equipment—in effect, the tangential arrangement of to-day.
Your Lordships will probably have seen in the Evening Standard on February 7 an interesting article from the pen of that pioneer airman and writer on aeronautical subjects, Major Oliver Stewart, touching on this question of Heath Row. The triangular layout, excellent as no doubt it has been in the past for military purposes, is definitely not suited to commercial air transport at points of worldwide importance, such as Heath Row undoubtedly could be. In the not distant future it will have to meet the requirements of a vital terminal airport and handle many hundreds of movements—that is arrivals or departures of aircraft—within the hour. The triangular plan—that is a single triangle—might with great care handle possibly 40 movements in the hour. Now the tangential arrangement as partially completed at Idlewild, which is the great new airport that is to replace La Guardia as the terminal for New York, and also the great new airport at Orly, which is to handle the traffic for France, and the airport at Ezeiza, which is to handle the traffic for Buenos Aires, are laid out all on the same plan, and will each, when completed, be capable with great safety of handling 360 movements an hour. And that is not too much to look forward to when La Guardia to-day at the peak hour is handling 250 movements an hour.

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Therefore your Lordships will be able to see how inadequate the triangular arrangement is for commercial air transport. The tangential plan is the one for the future. It is the one that makes for greater safety than any other, and which calls for the minimum of taxi-ing after alighting or before taking off. Moreover, it allows of the simultaneous arrival of three aircraft and the departure of an equal number at the same time. In the case of Idlewild there is a tangential strip every thirty degrees — a total of twelve in all. As your Lordships will appreciate, it is quite ridiculous to class Heath Row as one of the finest airports in the world.' It is obsolete long before it is finished. There are the three which I have mentioned, the first line airports of the world, Idlewild for New York, Orly for Paris and Ezeiza for Buenos Aires, and with three airports like these Heath Row is just not in the running. Heath Row was started as a military airfield. I suggest that at the present moment work upon it should be stopped, and that the whole question of a terminal airport for London should be reviewed in the light of present technical experience.
In a debate on February 14, on air transport in Scotland, Lord Winster had something to say about airport organization. He stated that there would be ample room at Heath Row, which is perfectly true. The area broadly speaking has the same acreage as Idlewild. The noble Lord said that he was arranging for the construction of nine runways, "three of which can be used simultaneously." He did not, however, inform your Lordships as to whether such three could be used for three take-offs or three landings or a combination of both. I would suggest that it would only be possible to effect one landing and two take-offs at the same moment. With the tangential plan it is possible for three landings and three take-offs to be made at the same moment. It might appear that this system, the system now in course of construction at Heath Row, if not the tangential system of runways, is similar or at least offers equivalent advantages to the tangential system. I suggest that such cannot be the case since the arrangement at Heath Row would appear to be the combination of two complete triangular layouts with three additional runways disposed at different angles. That arrangement really is not
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good enough to meet the present situation, and I would press that she whole of this matter should be very carefully reconsidered.
Sufficient is not being done to speed the construction of civil aircraft. Far more should be done because, as other noble Lords have said, if we get to it, there is no reason why a sufficient number of aircraft of the right types should not be made available from British sources. Therefore, it is essential that types should be developed. In connexion with smaller types, in the United States of America to-day they are developing at least twelve different types of light aircraft, what they call "personal" aircraft, and over here very little is being done. Since we want to speed up the export trade, it is very important indeed that we should do more about the development of light aircraft. In connexion, too, with flying clubs, one would have thought the noble Lord, Lord Winster, might have been at least generous in making available to them a number of aircraft, equal to those which they took over at the commencement of the war. Instead of that, they are to be offered aircraft at, I believe, £ 50 a machine. There is a sting in the tail, which is that they will have to spend about £ 400 on acquiring a certificate of air-worthiness. It is late, my Lords, and it will not be possible to make all the observations I have in mind. I would propose to put these and other points down in the form of a series of questions at an early date, and hope this will suit the convenience of the noble Viscount who leads your Lordships' House.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, we have had a useful and diversified debate, and I would like to thank the noble Viscount, Lord Addison., and other noble Lords who took part in the debate. We want planes, not Bills, We want air travel, not long speeches. The reply has been courteous and kind, but not entirely satisfactory, and we Shall in due course return to the charge. I beg leave to withdraw.
Motion, for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

LONDON NECROPOLIS BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.

DISTRIBUTION OF INDUSTRY (DEVELOPMENT OF AREAS) ORDER, 1946.
Report from the Special Orders Committee, That they examined the Order as required by the Standing Orders of the House; that in their opinion the Order raises questions of policy and principle which have been accepted already by the House when passing the Distribution of Industry Act, 1945, under which the Order is submitted for approval; that the Order is not founded on precedent inasmuch as it is the first Order which has been presented to Parliament under that Act; that in the opinion of the Committee the Order cannot be passed by the House without special attention, but that no further inquiry is necessary before the House proceeds to a decision on the Resolution to approve the said Order.
Read and ordered to lie on the Table.

  AWARD OF MEDALS TO PAIFORCE.
  AWARD OF MEDALS TO PAIFORCE.