Sitting of 20 February 1946

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PIT PONIES
Mr. Peter Freeman: I beg to present a Petition on behalf of pit ponies, signed by no fewer than 50,175 persons, praying that work now being done by pit ponies should be done by mechanical haulage, and desiring that these ponies be withdrawn from the pits at the earliest possible time. There are still more than 25,000 of these shy, timid and sensitive creatures still working underground in conditions quite unnatural and harmful to their normal life. It is desired that their work shall be done by mechanical haulage and that, until they are withdrawn from the pits, it is urged that they should not be permitted to work more than one shift of eight hours per day, which is not guaranteed at the present time. I beg to present this Petition, and to hope that these claims will be brought into operation at the earliest possible moment.
To lie upon the Table.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  ANGLO-EGYPTIAN TREATY (SUDAN)
  Captain Sir Peter Macdonald: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the Egyptian representations with regard to the Sudan and the British note in reply thereto, he will issue a White Paper setting out the exact position of the Sudan and the responsibilities of this country in connection therewith.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Ernest Bevin): As laid down in Article 11 of the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty of 1936, the administration of
  1122
  the Sudan continues to be that resulting from the Anglo-Egyptian Agreements of 19th January and 10th July, 1899. Those Agreements are to be found in British and Foreign State Papers, Volume 91, pages 19-22. I do not therefore think that the publication of a White Paper would serve any useful purpose.
  Sir P. Macdonald: Could the right hon. Gentleman say if they have been placed in the Library?
  Mr. Bevin: I think so.
  Sir P. Macdonald: But could the right hon. Gentleman say if they have actually been placed there?
  Mr. Bevin: Well, I think the hon. and gallant Member should find out whether they are in the Library, and, if they are not there, I will see that they, are put there.

  WORLD PUBLIC HOLIDAY
  Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will invite U.N.O. to make 1st May a public holiday throughout the world,.to celebrate peace, and to honour those in the Forces and amongst civilians who have helped to bring this about.
  Mr. Bevin: No, Sir. I do not think that this is really a matter for the United Nations Organisation. Every country has its own national system of holidays and it would not be easy to reach common agreement on a new date.
  Mr. E. P. Smith: Would the right hon. Gentleman consider an alternative date?
  Mr. Bevin: I would if all the constituents were Conservatives.
  Sir Waldron Smithers: Would not 1st April be a 'better date?

  HUNGARY (U.N.R.R.A. RELIEF)
  Flight-Lieutenant Haireasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the worsening conditions in Hungary, any of the agreed U.N.R.R.A. relief has now reached that country.
  Mr. Bevin: I understand that no relief supplies have yet reached Hungary owing to inland transport difficulties.

  1123
  U.N.R.R.A. hoped to make use of the port of Constanza, but have recently been informed that this is not available and are now proposing to use Trieste. It is hoped that the difficulties will shortly be overcome, and that the first consignment of about 1,000 tons will then be shipped.
  Flight-Lieutenant Haire: In view of the high mortality rate, which is daily increasing, and the conditions in the hospitals, would my right hon. Friend consider rushing medicines there, possibly by aircraft?
  Mr. Bevin: I have very great difficulty with this transport in Europe, and I am not the sole master of these communications.

  EGYPT (COMMUNISM)
  Mr. Piratinasked the Secretary of State for -Foreign Affairs if he is aware that a body called the Supreme Committee of Security, consisting of seven members including three nominated by the Egyptian Ministry of the Interior and three by British security authorities in Egypt, has been set up to combat Communism; that substantial British funds have been made available to this committee; and if he has any statement to make.
  Mr. Bevin: I have no knowledge of the existence of any such committee. No representatives of the British Defence Security authorities are on any such committee, and no British Government funds have been available for such purposes.
  Mr. Piratin: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that a statement published in Egypt not so long ago declared that this country had allowed£150,000 (Egyptian) for the expenses of this committee, and, if he is not aware of it, may I ask him why he is not aware and if he will take steps to become aware of it?
  Mr. Bevin: My hon. Friend knows how little regard I pay to this information in certain sections of the Press.

  BOOK SUPPLIES, S.E. EUROPE (PAYMENT)
  Flight-Lieutenant Haireasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the.demand in south-
  1124
  -east Europe for British films, plays, books, music, etc., and of the present unstable currencies in this area, he will consider negotiating a scheme of deferred payments and royalties.
  Mr. Bevin: The British Council is shortly despatching£5,000 worth of British books for sale in Hungary and probably a similar amount for sale in Yugoslavia; arrangements have been made for payment to be accepted in local currency. The present scheme also covers Poland, Austria, Czechoslovakia and Italy. The Greek Government have already made an allocation of sterling for the import of British books.
  Flight-Lieutenant Haire: As my right hon. Friend will be aware of the inflation in these countries, will he do what he can to allow deferred payments until there is a stable currency?
  Mr. Bevin: In the inflationary countries, I have taken the risk to accept it in any of the local currencies.
  Mr. E. P. Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman stir himself to do something somewhere before Autumn?

  GREECE

    Army Officers
    Major Wilkesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the British military mission in Athens can obtain information showing the number of former members of E.L.A.S. who are now commissioned officers on the active list of the Greek army; the number of ex-members of the security battalions similarly employed; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Bevin: It is the hope of His Majesty's Government that the Greek Army will be built up into an efficient and non-political force. In these circumstances, I am not prepared to make any statement concerning the political affiliations of Greek army officers, particularly since such a statement would involve extensive enquiries into the internal affairs of another State.
    Major Wilkes: Since His Majesty's Government are committed to the arming and provision of tanks and other weapons for the Greek army, is it not a matter of some interest to the Government and their

    1125
    military advisers whether or not the leading officers in the Greek Army are men who have had a collaborationist past during the German occupation?
    Mr. Bevin: Really, this is a matter for the Greek Government. I cannot conduct this investigation from outside. I believe the Army officers are trying to create an unpolitical army and I do not propose to interfere.

  E.L.A.S. Partisans (Imprisonment)
  Major Wilkesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in view of the fact that not a single member of officer status from the security battalions or from the Quisling security services has, as yet, been executed in Greece, whether he will make representations to the Greek Government regarding the proposed execution of three E.L.A.S. partisans, Bourdis, Avgheris and Monedas.
  Mr. Bevin: I understand that the three persons in question recently appealed for release under the recent legislation concerning the de-congestion of prisons. If the courts rule that they were not principals to murder in the first degree, their appeals will be sustained and they will be released immediately. As this question is still sub judice, no question of intervention by His Majesty's Government arises.

  POLAND

    Elections
    Major Tufton Beamishasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will initiate arrangements for an international commission to visit Poland as soon as possible and to be present during the elections to advise and assist the Polish Provisional Government in their preparations for, and conduct of, such elections.
    Mr. Bevin: The Polish Provisional Government have pledged themselves to His Majesty's Government and the Governments of the United States and the U.S.S.R. in the terms of the Crimea Agreement on Poland to hold
    " free and unfettered elections as soon as possible on the basis of universal suffrage and secret ballot,"
    in which
    " all democratic and anti-Nazi parties shall have the right to take part and to put forward candidates."
    1126
    Mr. Bierut at Potsdam further assured me that the elections would be held on the basis of the 1921 Polish Constitution: If those pledges are strictly fulfilled in the arrangements made for the elections, an international commission would appear neither necessary nor desirable.
    Major Beamish: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the presence of an international commission or some foreign observers, however few in number, might be a steadying influence in a country where political feeling is running very high at the moment?
    Mr. Bevin:Yes, Sir, but I really cannot take on all the burdens of all these countries. We have got the undertaking of the Provisional Government, and I cannot anticipate that they are going to do wrong. I must see whether they do.

  Praesidium
  Major Beamishasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the vacancy in the Polish Praesidium, caused by the death of M. Witos, has been filled by another member of the Polish Peasant Party, P.S.L., or to what party the new member belongs; and whether he is satisfied that the filling of this vacancy has been carried out in accordance with the agreed terms under which the Polish Provisional Government was recognised.
  Mr. Bevin: I understand that the vacancy caused by the death of Monsieur Wincenty Witos has not yet been filled and that discussions on the matter are still continuing.

  Arrested Officers
  Major Beamishasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that sixteen Polish officers are at present under arrest in Poland charged with offences against the State; that these officers are accused of direct connection with elements in the Polish II Corps in Italy, which is under British command; whether the Polish Provisional Government has provided His Majesty's Government with concrete evidence that has enabled these charges to be investigated; and whether arrangements have been completed "to enable all witnesses desired for the defence to be granted leave to proceed to Poland for this purpose.
  Mr. Bevin: I understand that the trial of 23 members of the subversive organisation known as N.S.Z. began in the

  1127
  Warsaw District Military Court on 13th February. The Polish Minister of Public Security has stated in a recent Press interview that the perpetrators of various criminal acts in Poland are connected with the Polish Armed Forces under British command. No official communication on the subject of the trial now in progress has been received by His Majesty's Government from the Polish Provisional Government.
  Major Beamish: Can the right hon. Gentleman say by whom these officers are being defended, since.they are supposed to be under British command?
  Mr. Bevin: I would like notice of that.
  Mr. Zilliacusasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware of the arrest by the Polish Security Police, for association with Fascist guerilla activities and illegal broadcasting, of two groups of Polish officers, with British military identity books that showed they belonged to General Anders's army in Italy; and whether he is satisfied that the sums of$400,000 and$80,000 respectively, found in the possession of these groups, did not come in whole or in part out of the£2,000,000 a month paid by His Majesty's Government for the upkeep of General Anders's army.
  Mr. Bevin: I have seen a summary of an interview given on 13th February by the Polish Minister of Public Security to a representative of the official Polish Press agency stating that certain persons accused of subversive activities had come to Poland with British documents and that Generals Anders and Kopanski had sent large sums in dollars or pounds.
  On receipt of these documents and of details of the sums involved, such as the numbers of the notes and their history, so far as is known, I would gladly cause immediate inquiry to be made whether any Polish officials have arrived in Poland since that country's liberation with British identity books or other documents, and whether any part of the funds paid for the maintenance of Polish 2nd Corps have been misused in the manner suggested. At present, however, I have no reason to believe the sums mentioned by the Polish Minister of Public Security emanated from funds of Polish 2nd Corps.
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  I would add that prior to the liberation of Poland large sums were sent to that country in dollars to assist the Polish underground movement in their activities against the forces guarding the German lines of communication with the Eastern front, and that we have no precise knowledge of what in fact happened to those sums.
  Professor Savory:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that General Anders has given the most firm and categorical denial of ever having sent any money or of ever having gone into conspiracy with Poles in Poland, and that we have no reason to doubt the word of this gallant officer?
  Mr. Zilliacus: Is my right hon. Friend aware that General Anders has also denied any communication with the underground movement, whereas some of his junior officers have been informing Press correspondents—who have duly reported it in the "News Chronicle" and elsewhere—of the actual contact they were maintaining with the underground Fascist movement in Poland?
  Mr. Bevin: I can only assume there must be a second Intelligence Service.

  Terrorist Activities
  Mr. Zilliacusasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what representations he has received from the Polish Government as to the terrorist and conspiratorial activities in Poland of officers and agents of General Ander's army; when such representations were first made; and what action His Majesty's Government are taking in the matter.
  Mr. Bevin: I received representations from the Polish Provisional Government on this subject last September when the Council of Foreign Ministers were meeting in London. Since that time, the Polish Provisional Government have referred to the matter on a number of occasions both in official communications and in public statements. But they have not hitherto furnished us with detailed supporting evidence such as would enable us to investigate their general allegations.
  Mr. Zilliacus: Are the Government fully satisfied that there are, in fact, no illicit

  1129
  relations between officers and agents of General Anders's army and the underground movement in Poland?
  Mr. Bevin: I do not know of any. The situation is a very difficult one, and I want to impress upon my hon. Friend that, however much we may accuse General Anders, there is another consideration I have always to bear in mind—that that great army helped carry us through to victory.
  Major Beamish: Would the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of pressing the Polish Provisional Government to produce concrete evidence in the matter so that these general charges can be investigated?
  Mr. Bevin: I get so many constant allegations, and if I looked into all of them I would be doing nothing else. It is part of the propaganda that is going on. I can only deal with what the Government communicate to me. I take little notice of these things until I receive evidence of them.
  Professor Savory: Is it not malicious and wicked propaganda?

  Army, Italy (Activities)
  Mr. Zilliacusasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why officers and agents of General Anders's army enjoy freedom to indulge in anti-Soviet activities and propaganda and to interfere in the internal affairs of Italy by associating with the neo-Fascist Vomo Qualunque movement and committing acts of violence against adherents of the Left; why Mihailovitch Chetniks and Yugoslav Royalists are being recruited into his army; on whose authority and for what purpose the army has held large-scale manoeuvres long after the end of the war; and what steps he proposes to take to allay the apprehensions and bad feeling aroused in Poland, Italy and Yugoslavia by the activities of this Polish force.
  Mr. Bevin: As regards the first part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answers given to his Questions on this subject on 28th January and 11th February. Every effort is made to prevent activities on the part of members of the 2nd Corps which conflict with the aims of British policy. If my hon. Friend has any concrete evidence of such activities I shall be glad to consider it.
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  As regards the second part of the Question, my hon. Friend will have seen the terms of my communication of 17th February to the Secretary-General of the United Nations. The Supreme Allied Commander in Italy has stated that the Polish Forces are not making any attempt at all to recruit Yugoslavs; in fact, as I stated in my communication to Mr. Trygve Lie, all recruiting on the part of the Polish Forces has been forbidden for several months on the orders of His Majesty's Government.
  As regards the third part of the Question, the recent manoeuvres held in the neighbourhood of Ancona were routine training exercises. The manoeuvres were not on a large scale since the Polish troops are spread throughout the whole length of Italy and are largely occupied on guard duties.
  As to the last part of the Question, I hope my communication to Mr. Trygve Lie will have had the effect of allaying apprehensions on this score.
  Mr. Zilliacus: Does the reply mean the Government now consider that the conduct of General Anders's officers and troops is satisfactory, because in a recent reply the Government said they were not satisfied that the position was satisfactory? Have the Government changed their minds in this matter?
  Mr. Bevin: No, Sir. This Government is very consistent.
  Mr. Mikardo: As my right hon. Friend has said that every effort is being made to stop every act of the Polish Second Corps in contravention of British policy, does not this suggest that my right hon. Friend is having difficulties in this connection, and has he tried stopping the supply of funds to the Second Corps, which is one of their weapons?
  Mr. Bevin: No, Sir. I am not having any difficulty really. The difficulty I am having is with accusations which are made without any supporting evidence. It is quite easy to make charges as between one country and another, and I can understand it, but I would ask my hon. Friends on this side of the House to appreciate that no Member of this House criticised these men when they fought for us from El Alamein to Italy, and I am not going to be driven into a position whereby I cannot bring about a demobilisation and

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  change in proper conditions. I ask the House sincerely to be as loyal to these men, who were working Polish men, as they are to their political views.

  CZECHOSLOVAKIA (BRITISH INTERESTS)
  Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether negotiations have been opened with the Czechoslovak Government for compensation for British interests in nationalised industry in that country; and whether he has any report to make thereon.
  Mr. Bevin: In reply to the representations made by His Majesty's Ambassador at Prague the Czechoslovak Government have asked to be given a complete list of the Czechoslovak concerns in which British subjects hold interests, giving the amount of the holdings, the dates of acquisition, the price paid and the present value. The Czechoslovak Government have stated that as soon as the amount of compensation is known, and on the presupposition of full reciprocity, they will be ready to enter into negotiations about

  Pay and allowances of clerks and typists in the British Embassy in Paris and at British Consulates n France in August, 1939, and at 1st December, 1945, were as follows:

  August, 1939.

  1st December, 1945.

  Embassy, Paris

  Clerks

  …

  …

  …

  Salary Men£85-£350 per annum.

  August, 1939, salary scales increased by£78p.a. (men) and£65 (women)

  Salary Women£85-£280 per annum.

  Food and accommodation provided in Government hostels.

  Allowances ranging from£100 to£130 per annum.

  Allowance£90 per annum (married men),£25(others).

  Typists

  …

  …

  Salary£ 2 5s.-£ 3 12s. a week.

  Salary£3 9s.-£4 19s. a week. Food and accommodation provided.

  Allowance from£2 9s. 3d.-£2 12s. 9d. a week.

  Allowance£25 a year.

  Consulates in France.

  Clerks (sterling paid)

  £250-£450 Per annum

  Salary£183-£590 per annum.

  (a) Food and accommodation provided and allowance of£90 per annum (married men),£25 (others) or

  (b) Allowance ranging from £230-£675 per annum.

  Clerks (currency paid)

  Fcs. 16,800-Fcs. 31,800 per annum.

  Fcs. 48,000 to Fcs. 120,600 per annum

  Typists

  …

  …

  Fcs. 15,600-Fcs. 27,000 per annum.

  (Sterling Paid)£ 198-£233 per annum. Food and accommodation provided and allowance of£25 per annum.

  (Currency paid) Fcs. 36,000 to Fcs. 60,000 per annum.

  the way in which compensation should be paid.
  Mr. Davies: May I ask my right hon. Friend for an assurance that, when these negotiations are entered into, he will not press Czechoslovakia to pay compensation immediately, but will enable her time in which to be able to obtain the currency in which the right hon. Gentleman wants the payments to be made?
  Mr. Bevin: The assurance that I will give my hon. Friend is that I will not treat Czechoslovakia any worse than any other country with which we are in negotiation.

  EMBASSY AND CONSULAR STAFFS, FRANCE
  Mr. William Teelingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what was the pay and allowances of clerks and typists in the British Embassy in Paris and the Consulates in France in August, 1939, and at 1st December, 1945.
  Mr. Bevin: As the answer contains a series of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the Official Report.
  Following is the answer:
  Mr. Teelingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how long the consul and two vice-consuls at Bordeaux, the vice-consul at Toulouse and vice-consul in Paris, who have not yet had their pay and allowances agreed, have been stationed in these posts; what are the reasons for the non-agreement of the allowances; and whether he will give an assurance that the gentlemen in question will suffer no financial loss by this delay and that they are in no way being held up in the efficient carrying out of their duties by the uncertainty as to what their allowances will ultimately be.
  Mr. Bevin: The officers in question have been at their posts since November, 1944, May, 1945, March, 1945, and September, 1944. The delay in fixing allowances was due to the difficulties resulting from variations in prices and living conditions in France. The officers concerned will not suffer financial loss as the result of the, delay and I am satisfied that their efficient performance of their duties has not been affected.
  Mr. Teeling: May I point out to the right hon. Gentleman that there are many other Consulates in France where, evidently, everything is all right? Could he hurry the matter up, because I know there is a certain amount of unhappiness about it?
  Mr. Bevin: I will look into it.

  FOREIGN SERVICE (RECRUITMENT)
  Captain Bullockasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if it is proposed to send members of the regular foreign services in future to all important posts abroad of ambassadorial rank.
  Mr. Bevin: Where I am satisfied that the national interest will be best served by bringing in a man from outside the Service, I shall not hesitate to do so. But I think it will generally be found in future, as in the past, that the men who are best qualified by training, knowledge and experience to assume the responsibilities of high diplomatic posts, are those who have made their career in the Foreign Service.
  Mr. Benn Levy: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that while nobody on this side of the House desires that the Foreign Service should be recruited on
  1134
  a party basis— [Hon. Members: "Oh "]—no, nor on a class basis either—nevertheless, it is highly undesirable that that minority of posts which carry with them the necessity of day by day political decisions—and there are some, however ubiquitous a Foreign Secretary may be— should be entrusted to officials who may be politically out of sympathy with the Government they are expected to represent?
  Mr. Speaker: I thought the hon. Gentleman was going to ask a question.
  Mr. Bevin: With regard to the Foreign 1Service, I take the very strong view that the young men who are passing their examinations today and entering the Service are a typical reproduction of the general opinion of the country as a whole, and I have no intention, so long as I am in office, of taking the top posts away, and' so denying satisfaction to the legitimate ambitions of people entering the Service. If Mr. Speaker will allow me, I would say that I am handicapped by the two gaps caused by the last war and this, which seriously affect the Service.

  OFFICIAL HISTORY (PREWAR PERIOD)
  Captain Bullockasked the Secretary of. State for Foreign Affairs when the first volume of the official publication dealing with the years between the wars will be published; and which years will be dealt with in this volume.
  Mr. Bevin: As previously announced, this publication is being divided into two series in order to make available as soon as possible documents dealing with events most relevant to the outbreak of war. The arrangements for the publication of the first volume of the second series are in hand, and it is hoped that this volume will appear in the next few months. This volume will cover the year 1930, overlapping at the beginning and end of 1929 and 1931.
  Captain Bullockasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the volume of the official publications dealing with the period of the Munich negotiations when published will contain documents relating to the views of the Dominions at that time.
  Mr. Bevin: In view of the large scale of this publication and of the number of papers involved, the selection of documents dealing with the years 1938-1939 has not yet been made The editors have in mind the point raised by the hon. and gallant Member, not merely in relation to the Munich negotiations but to other subjects dealt with in the series. It would of course be necessary to consult the Dominion Governments in the matter.

  TUBERCULOSIS (GERMAN SANATORIA)
  Captain Marplesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the increase of tuberculosis in this country and the difficulty of treating these patients effectively, he will consider approaching the Swiss Government to ascertain if it would be possible for Britain to take over, on account of reparations from Germany, the Deutsche Heilstatte at Wolfgang and the Deutsches Krieser Kurhaus at Davos Dorf, which were two tuberculosis sanatoria owned by the German Government.
  Mr. Bevin: The question of possible arrangements for the treatment in Switzerland of a certain number of tuberculosis cases is already under consideration by my right hon. Friends the Minister of Health and the Minister of Pensions as a result of a generous offer to this end recently made to the Minister of Health through the Swiss Minister. The suggestions which the hon. and gallant Member makes in the same sense would require careful consideration from many points of view, and I am not at present in a position to give a reply concerning them.
  Captain Marples: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the present moment a considerable number of Nazis are being treated in the two sanatoria I have mentioned, and does he not consider it more desirable that T.B. subjects of this country should be treated?
  Mr. Bevin: I will look into that.

  EUROPEAN NEEDS AND WORLD RESOURCES
  Sir Arthur Salterasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will arrange for important official re-
  1136
  ports such as that of the Emergency Economic Committee for Europe, when released for publication, to be procurable by hon. Members and by the public.
  Mr. Bevin: As promised in a reply given to the right hon. Member on 4th February, arrangements have already been made for such reports to be placed in the Library of the House. Copies of reports released to the Press by the Emergency Economic Committee for Europe and the European Coal Organisation may be obtained on application from the offices of these organisations.
  Sir A. Salter: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware that a full week after the release of this important report it was completely unknown at the Vote Office, the Stationery Office or the Library?
  Mr. Bevin: I will look into it.
  Sir A. Salterasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will arrange for the publication of a White Paper summarising the main facts now available as to the world's requirements and resources of the principal foodstuffs and raw materials; and to have it kept up to date by periodical later issues.
  Mr. Bevin: The right hon. Member will have seen the White Paper on the grain position, Command 6737, which contains some of the desired information. As he is aware, the Emergency Economic Committee for Europe have also published certain information on the European food situation. These publications cover part of the ground, but in addition I will arrange for a White Paper to be prepared periodically summarising such relevant information as is available to His Majesty's Government and can properly be published by them.

  BORNHOLM (RUSSIAN OCCUPATION)
  Sir Alan Herbertasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the approximate strength of the Russian troops now in the Danish island of Bornholm; and why they are there.
  Mr. Bevin: The Soviet forces went to Bornholm to take surrender of the Germans there. I am not in a position to give any information as to their number.
  Mr. Follick: Would the right hon. Gentleman state what are the intentions of the Russian Government as regards those troops remaining in Bornholm, and when will they come out?
  Mr. Bevin: I did not know that in answer to a Question I was expected to give a reply concerning the intentions of the Soviet Government.
  Sir A. Herbert: Perhaps at a proper opportunity would the right hon. Gentleman persuade the warm hearted M. Manuilsky to take a proper interest in the affairs of this little island?
  Mr. Bevin: I think my hon. Friend might refer that question to the Oxford Group.

  ROYAL NAVY

    Prize Money (R.A.F.)
    Major Digbyasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether in view of the decision to give the R.A.F. a share of prize money, the maritime regiments will also receive a share, having regard to their services at sea.
    The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. A. V. Alexander): I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Chelsea (Commander Noble) on 6th February.

    V.E. and V.J. Leave
    Mrs. Castleasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will arrange for members of the R.N. and R.M., who, because they were serving overseas, did not receive special leave in celebration of V.E. and V.J. Days, to have two days in lieu added to their foreign service leave on demobilisation.
    Mr. Alexander: The leave granted to members of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines on their return to this country is generally determined by the length of their service abroad, and does not take into consideration any leave which they may have received whilst abroad; nor does it take account of any leave which other members of the Royal Navy or Royal Marines may have received whilst serving at home. Commands abroad were given discretion to grant V.E. and V.J. leave locally, and the period during which this leave could be granted was extended to
    1138
    two months from V.E. Day and three months from V.J. Day. I do not consider that this exceptional provision should be further extended.
    Mrs. Castle: Does not my right hon. Friend think, in view of the fact that these men made their contribution to the victory which we were celebrating on these days, they should not be excluded by an arbitrary ruling from their share in these celebrations?
    Mr. Alexander: They certainly are not excluded. They have many opportunities for leave while they are abroad, and their opportunities for foreign service leave at home are not being reduced in any way by their local leave abroad.
    Mrs. Castle: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have already brought to his attention a case in which local leave was not given, and that leave in lieu on return to this country would have been given if the date which he had fixed had not expired? Will my right hon. Friend reconsider cases of that kind?
    Mr. Alexander: It is almost impossible to deal with the tremendous number of cases of this kind with the dwindling and reduced staffs which we have, unless we can give a general rule applicable to all, and this really is broad justice.

    Personal Case
    30 and 31. Mr. John McKayasked the First Lord of the Admiralty (1) if he is aware. that. P/MX63438 S.B.P.O. F. G. R. Cross served overseas at Malta from January, 1941, to December, 1942; and will he, therefore, be granted special overseas leave for this period;
    (2) if he is aware that P/MX63438 S.B.P.O. F. G. R. Cross, Class A release, overseas at Malta from January, 1941, to December, 1942, has written twice during January of this year to G.P.O. Box 120, Chelsea, London, S.W.3, asking for a form on which to make his claim for special overseas leave for the above period and has had no reply; will he instruct the above office to send the form to F. G. R. Cross; and why Mrs. Cross has been notified that her allotment and marriage allowance will finish on 31st January, when her husband's leave did not expire until 6th February.
    Mr. Alexander: A form of application for overseas leave claim was sent to

    1139
    Mr. Cross on 11th February, in response to a request dated 6th January. Owing to the enormous number of similar requests received by the small staff available to deal with them, I am afraid that some delay is unavoidable, but the claims will be dealt with as quickly as possible. Payment of allotment and marriage allowance is made in advance. The payment made to Mrs. Cross on 31st January, therefore, covers the period up to 6th February.

    W.R.N.S. (Redundant Officers)
    32. Sir John Mellorasked the First Lord of the Admiralty why W.R.N.S. officers, not required for duty, are frequently sent on leave on full pay for long periods instead of being released from the Service.
    Mr. Alexander: During the early Summer of 1945, a number of W.R.N.S. operational officers became redundant owing to reductions in the Fleet. Some time was necessary before they could be reappointed, during which they were sent on leave. At the present time, only a few W.R.N.S. officers are being sent on leave with full pay, and these remain on call during their leave.
    Sir J. Mellor: Why cannot those officers who are unlikely to toe reappointed be released forthwith instead of being kept unemployed at the public expense?
    Mr. Alexander: They have been released as rapidly as possible, but they had to be held at the beginning of the scheme for their age and service group. As a matter of fact, the release of W.R.N.S. is very much ahead of their normal time.
    Mr. J. Langford-Holt: While appreciating the right hon. Gentleman's difficulties in this matter, may I ask him if he is aware that the same conditions apply to officers of the Fleet Air Arm? I believe there are large numbers of these officers who at the moment are on permanent indefinite leave with no prospect of returning to the Service before being demobilised.
    Mr. Alexander: We cannot interfere with the general arrangement without interfering with the age and service group principle. Those on indefinite leave are due for remustering to different stations
    1140
    in order to release other men who have an earlier claim to demobilisation. We are doing the best we can.

    Newspapers for Singapore
    Mr. John Lewisasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is aware that newspapers despatched in December to men in the R.N. stationed in Singapore have not yet arrived, although the position in regard to letters is satisfactory; and if he will take steps to ensure that an improvement is effected in this position.
    Mr. Alexander: The sea mail service to Singapore, by which newspapers are sent unless specially prepaid for carriage by air, is satisfactory. All mail despatched from the United Kingdom between 1st December and 24th December had arrived in Singapore by 8th February. If my hon. Friend has any particular case in mind, I shall be glad to look into it.

    Demobilisation
    Major Wyattasked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many soldiers and airmen have been brought from India to the United Kingdom in aircraft carriers for demobilisation since November, 1945.
    Mr. Alexander: Aircraft carriers employed on trooping duties are normally filled to capacity with Naval men, thus freeing equivalent capacity in troopships for the Army and Royal Air Force. Members of the other Services.are carried only when there- are insufficient Naval personnel to fill them. The answer to my hon. and gallant Friend's Question is 443 since 1st November.
    Major Wyatt: Would my right hon. Friend make a special effort to try to see that some Servicemen are brought back from India in aircraft carriers, as the fact that they are not was one of the grievances raised by the men during a recent R.A.F. strike?
    Mr. Alexander: The best thing I can do for the other Services is to have the most economical use of troopships for the naval men concerned. If they come and go in the Naval ships they can actually be used for working the ships, whereby it is much more economical and I can release more space in the troopships for other Services.
    Major Wyatt: Would my right hon. Friend make that quite clear?
    Mr. Alexander: I have done so before, but I hope my answer now will receive wide publicity.
    Captain Marsden: Has the right hon. Gentleman satisfied himself that the living conditions in aircraft carriers are good enough to satisfy the Royal Air Force?
    36. Miss Colmanasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that Group 24 of T. 124 T. personnel has not yet been released; and when the ratio of demobilisation of the Rescue Tug Service can be increased.
    Mr. Alexander: A further programme of releases for T. 124 T. personnel has just been announced to the Fleet. This provides for the release of Groups varying from Group 21 for Stewards and Greasers to Group 50 for Ordinary Seamen, by the end of March. I hope to be able to announce a further improvement in the near future.

    Mine sweeping (Officers)
    Sir P. Macdonaldasked the First Lord of the Admiralty the conditions of service, terms of gratuity, etc., of officers of the R.N. and R.N.V.R. who have volunteered to remain in the R.N. for mine-sweeping operations.
    Mr. Alexander: No officers have been invited to volunteer for further service specifically for mine-sweeping operations.
    Sir P. Macdonald: Is it not a fact that R.N.V.R. officers are serving in that capacity, and that they do not know what are the conditions of service and are very anxious to know?
    Mr. Alexander: I must say they are not up to the usual level of naval officers if they have, not found out directly through their commanding officers. I am quite sure the information is available to them.

    Boys (Service Contracts)
    Mr.Garry Allighanasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will consider taking steps to amend the Naval Enlistment Act, 1884, which makes it possible for the parents of a boy 15¼ years of age to sign a service contract which holds the boy for continuous service until he is 30 years of age, so that the boy would, in future, have the option to con-
    1142
    tinue or discontinue service on reaching 18 years of age.
    Mr. Alexander: No, Sir. No amendments to the Naval Enlistment Act are at present contemplated.
    Mr. Garry Allighan: Would the right hon. Gentleman explain how he justifies the system under which the life of a boy can be signed away until he reaches the age of 30 without having any choice in the matter?
    Mr. Alexander: That is not the law under the Act to which my hon. Friend has referred. It empowers the Admiralty to enter a boy who volunteers on a 12-years engagement starting from the age of 18. It does not empower the parents to enter a boy in the Navy against his will. In fact, the Act does not mention parents at all. The only rule about parents' consent is one adopted as a rule by the Admiralty. I am quite sure the House would not at any time wish a boy to be enlisted permanently in the Navy without his parents' consent.

    Gibraltar (Leave Clothing)
    Mr. Keenanasked the First Lord of the Admiralty why leading ratings, badge-men and higher ranks only, are allowed to wear civilian clothes when on leave in Gibraltar; and if this is a Service order.
    Mr. Alexander: Article 165A of King's Regulations and Admiralty Instructions gives discretion to commanding officers to grant permission to wear plain clothes when on short leave to men of leading rate and above, non-commissioned officers Royal Marines, and all men in possession of good conduct badges. At British ports abroad such permission is subject to conditions approved by the commander-in-chief of the station. Gibraltar is, therefore, in line with other commands abroad in the observance of this Regulation, which is one of long standing.
    Mr. Keenan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the operation of this order has caused a great deal of dissatisfaction in the Service at Gibraltar?
    Mr. Alexander: 1 have never heard of any complaint of any kind until this moment. The fact that any rating with a good conduct badge is entitled to it on.

    1143
    short leave and all men in the Navy are entitled to it on long leave has proved to be satisfactory.

    Tuberculosis
    39. Mr. Keenanasked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many officers, commissioned ranks, and ratings, other ranks, have been discharged or invalided out of the R.N. suffering from tuberculosis, from September, 1939, to January, 1946.
    Mr. Alexander: 8,144 officers and ratings, including Royal Marines, were finally invalided on account of pulmonary tuberculosis during the period September, 1939, to January, 1946.

    Re-enlistments
    Mr. Keenanasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will explain the reason why only 1,694 ratings decided to volunteer and remain in the R.N. on demobilisation up to December, 1945; if he is aware that 6,727 officers volunteered up to the same date; and what steps he proposes to make the service attractive for naval ratings to volunteer and continue in the R.N.
    Mr. Alexander: The figures quoted are those which I gave to my hon. Friend on 6th February. The fact that the number of officers volunteering for further service is greater than that of ratings is not unnatural. Most men are war-weary, and are anxious to return to civil life in which the release benefits are an added attraction. The new scale of pay and allowances has only just been announced, and does not come into operation until 1st July, and I think it is too soon to judge its effect.
    Mr. Keenan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the figures he gave in answer to the Question I asked before indicate that about 80 per cent." of the officers decided to sign on again when the time of demobilisation arrived and only 2 per cent, of the ratings? Is he aware of the terrible conditions under which the men live, and that the disciplinary code of the Navy is such that the men will not remain in the Navy until it is altered?
    Mr. Alexander: I cannot accept that general and wide-sweeping charge. I have my own opportunities for meeting the men from time to time and talking
    1144
    to them. I would not accept that at all. As a result of the experience after the last war we in this Government have made a far better postwar code of service than any Government in previous history. I am satisfied that when it is understood by all grades there will be better re-enlistment when the improved pay and service code comes into operation.

    Pensioners (War Service)
    Mr. Willisasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will now make a statement as to the results of the consideration given to the position of long- service naval pensioners who performed full-time service during the 1939–45 war, as promised in paragraph 52 of White Paper Cmd. 6715.
    Mr. Alexander: This matter is at present under consideration. I am not, therefore, in a position to make a statement.
    Mr. Willis: When considering this matter will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that these men are now four or five years older than they would have been and are at a period in their lives when it is exceedingly difficult to get civilian occupation? Could he also say whether it will lead to retrospective treatment?
    Mr. Alexander: In regard to the first part of the question, I am trying to arrange that they get every possible sympathetic consideration and I am having the matter revised. - With regard to the second part, I hope it may be possible to date it back, but I can never be quite sure when dealing with the Chancellor whether that is possible.

    Good Conduct Gratuity
    Mr. Willisasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether ratings who, after their first 12 years' engagement did not engage for a further period, but were retained in the Service during recent hostilities and completed 15 years of continuous very good conduct, are eligible for the payment of good conduct gratuity; and if not, whether he will consider amending Article 534, K.R. and A.I., to permit the payment of the gratuity in these cases.
    Mr. Alexander: No, Sir. The gratuity associated with the Royal Naval Long Service and Good Conduct Medal is payable only to men who have re-engaged to

    1145
    complete their time for pension. One of its objects is to induce men of good character to sign on to complete time, and it cannot be extended to men who have decided not to sign on.
    Mr. Willis: In view of the fact that these men do get this medal and the payment is associated with the medal will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider this matter?
    Mr. Alexander: The men had their opportunity to sign at the end of their 12 years and they have not done so. That is the real object of the payment.

    LEGAL AID (POOR PERSONS)
    Major Symondsasked the Attorney- General whether, in view of the changed level of money incomes, he will recommend raising the income limit above which a person is ineligible for legal aid by Poor Persons Committees.
    The Attorney-General (Sir Hartley Shawcross): I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Levy) on 7th February, and also to the statement made by my Noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor in another place on 18th February, in both of which it was indicated that the Government are intending to implement the general proposals of Lord Rushcliffe's Committee on Legal Aid.
    Major Symonds: Would my hon. and learned Friend consider whether, in view of the fact that such legislation is bound to take a long time, it might be possible in the meantime to implement in some degree parts of the Rushcliffe Report administratively?
    The Attorney-General: We will give consideration to that suggestion when we receive the scheme which the Law Society is at present engaged in preparing.

    GERMANY (BALTIC PERSONS)
    Mr. Orbachasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster for what reasons Latvians, Lithuanians and Esthonians," employed previous to the Nazi collapse by the Reich Ministry for Eastern Affairs, are now allowed special rations as displaced persons, receive Red
    1146
    Cross parcels and axe housed in British Government camps or the homes of forcibly-evacuated Germans; and if he is aware that many of these persons are engaged in anti-United Nations propaganda.
    The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. John Hynd): Baltic persons now in Germany who are of German extraction and acquired German nationality in 1939-41 are considered and treated as Germans and not as displaced persons. Those Baltic persons, however, who are not of German extraction and have not acquired German nationality are treated as displaced persons in accordance with general policy. The question whether it will be practicable to refuse displaced status to persons such as those referred to by my hon. Friend who were willing or unwilling tools of the enemy is part of a wider question which is receiving consideration. Propaganda directed against any of the United Nations is strictly forbidden in all displaced persons assembly centres.
    Mr. Orbach: Will the hon. Gentleman cause special inquiries to be- made into the camps at Detmold and Bromberg in.Westphalia?
    Mr. Hynd: If the hon. Gentleman, will give me some indication what we are to inquire into, I will be very glad to do so.
    Mr. Orbach: Into the anti-United Nations propaganda.

    POOD SUPPLIES

      Horses and Dogs
      Mr. P. Freemanasked the Minister of Food whether he will prohibit any supply of food in this country being used for feeding animals, such as horses and dogs that are maintained solely for the purpose of hunting and sport, during the present emergency.
      The Minister of Food (Sir Benjamin Smith): I have already gone as far as is reasonable in the direction sought. Only very small quantities of feeding stuffs are made available, and I propose to circulate the details in the Official Report.
      Mr. Freeman: Would it not be better if these animals were put to some more worthy purpose?
      Following are the details:
      No rationed feeding stuffs out of the ration pool are made available for greyhounds. Rationed feeding stuffs out of the ration pool are not normally issued for the maintenance of blood stock and race horses where oats grown on the holding on which the horses are kept are available. Rations for hunting horses are allowed for months October to January inclusive on a basis of 1/12th of prewar numbers and at the rate of 3 cwt. horsefeed per month per horse.
      Fox hounds actively engaged in fox or stag destruction are allowed rations throughout the year on the basis of 1/8th of prewar numbers, at the rate of½cwt. of cereal per month per couple. Rationed feeding stuffs are made available for sheep dogs on hill farms. Oats grown on a holding may be retained by the grower for feeding to his own livestock, which may include horses.

    Retail Licences
    Mr. P. Freemanasked the Minister of Food whether he will issue more licences for food shops in the areas where it is found that shopkeepers cause queues by not arranging for sufficient time or staff to supply the public conveniently.
    Sir B. Smith: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to.the hon. and gallant Member for Kincardine and Western (Colonel Thomton-Kemsley) on 20th December last. Since the end of hostilities with Germany, nearly 10,000 licences have been granted for new retail food businesses or for the re-opening of closed businesses, including market and street stalls and hawkers. This is about 5,000 more than the number of retail businesses closed during the same period.
    Mr. Orbachasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the possibility of an abundance of fish in the near future, he will expedite the granting of licences for the opening of wet and dried fish shops.
    Sir B. Smith: As 1 announced on 20th December last in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Kincardine and Western (Colonel Thornton-Kemsley) I intend to bring about a progressive relaxation in the administration of the retail licensing system as the supply of
    1148
    food increases. In the last ten months for which figures are available, 2,388 licences were granted.for retail fish businesses.

    Wheat Stores (Deterioration)
    Squadron-Leader Sir Gifford Foxasked the Minister of Food if he is aware that a quantity Of wheat stored at Chalgrove aerodrome has been allowed to deteriorate; and if he will take steps, in view of the serious food position, to see that no further stocks are allowed to deteriorate.
    Sir B. Smith: No wheat has been stored at Chalgrove Aerodrome by my Department or, so far as I am aware, on private account A quantity of imported wheat, however, was recently stored by my Department near the aerodrome at Belson barn. This wheat was consigned to a miller at the end of January last, and since no complaint has been received as to the quality or condition of the wheat it may be assumed that no deterioration had taken place while it was in store. All wheat stored by my Department is subject to periodical inspection, and steps are taken immediately to deal with any deterioration.

    Hotels and Restaurants
    Miss Baconasked the Minister of Food if, for the benefit of those living in hotels and boarding establishments, he will arrange for such rationed goods as oranges and soap to be obtainable by presenting a personal ration book, as is the case with sweets, rather than the general ration book
    Sir B. Smith: Oranges are not available with sufficient regularity to justify the use of a personal ration document such as that used for sweets. So far as the soap ration is concerned, while people who live in catering establishments licensed by my Department have no individual entitlement, the proprietor can forgo part of the allowance for the establishment and obtain coupons for a corresponding quantity for distribution to his residents.
    Miss Bacon: Can the Minister state whether or not hotels receive supplies of oranges for the ration books they hold, and, if so, what happens to the oranges?
    Sir B. Smith: The answer is, "No, Sir."
    Mr. J. L. Williamsasked the Minister of Food the relative proportions of the meat supplies allocated in the Glasgow area for hotels and restaurants, staff canteens and ordinary family rations, respectively.
    Sir B. Smith: Meat is allocated in the Glasgow area to the three groups indicated by my hon. Friend in the following proportions: Hotels and restaurants, including cafes, tea shops and other public eating places, 5.0 per cent.; Industrial canteens, British Restaurants, and school feeding, 2.3 per cent.; Ordinary family rations, 92.7 per cent.
    Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the recent food cuts, he will now institute the rationing of meals in hotels and catering establishments.
    Sir B. Smith: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which 1 gave to the hon. Members for Upton (Mr. A. Lewis) and Newport (Mr. P. Freeman) on 13th February.
    Mrs. Castle: Is the Minister aware that if he were to check up the number of meals any one person can take per week off the ration in restaurants, he could safeguard the position of workers in canteens and school children, while preventing specially privileged sections of the community from eating ad libitum in restaurants while retaining their domesticrations?
    Sir B. Smith: The policy of my Ministry has been to hold the scales as evenly as possible for all classes of the community. If I dealt with one aspect of this problem, it is obvious that I should have to deal with the whole, which would militate very greatly against the school children and against workers in canteens.
    Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Food if he is aware that meals are being served in private rooms in restaurants and hotels without any restriction on their price or on the number of courses served; and will he take steps to bring these meals within the restrictions of the catering regulations.
    Sir B. Smith: The Meals in Establishments Order controls the number and composition of courses which may be served in private rooms in catering establishments. If my hon. Friend is aware of
    1150
    any instances in which she considers the law is not being observed and will let me have details I will make inquiries. The price restrictions of the Order do not apply to meals served in private rooms, and I do not propose to alter the existing law in this respect.
    Mrs. Castle: May I ask the Minister if that means that any price whatever can be charged for a meal taken in a private room, and that any luxuries may be served there?
    Sir B. Smith: The implication in the latter part of the question is not true, because they are controlled by Order to three courses.

    Oranges and Lemons
    Mrs. Ayrton Gouldasked the Minister of Food if he is aware that while oranges and lemons are on short supply in greengrocers' shops, they can be bought in practically unlimited quantities from costermongers' barrows in the West End, off the ration; and will he take steps to see that the fruit is properly distributed.
    Sir B. Smith: Licensed street traders in London are graded for supplies of oranges and lemons on precisely the same basis as all other retailers, and I am taking all possible steps to ensure that irregularities are not committed.
    Mrs. Ayrton Gould: Is the Minister of Food aware that the orange and the lemon that I hold in my hands were purchased at the corner of Coventry Street and Wardour Street for 2d. and 4d. respectively; that just North of Leicester Square there were five barrows selling off-ration fruit above controlled prices; and that when these barrows were empty, they disappeared and were brought back again in a few minutes replenished to continue the illegitimate trading? Will the right hon. Gentleman see that this is stopped, and that the retailers get proper supplies?
    Sir B. Smith: What I would suggest to the hon. Lady is this, that she was apparently on the site at the time and that she should have reported to the police directly.
    Captain Baird: Does the Minister consider that the present method of allocation of fruit, which is based on the 1939 turnover, is equitable, as since that time there

    1151
    has been a large shifting of the population so that some areas are very short of fruit at the present time?
    Sir B. Smith: All shifts in the population are taken note of and everyone, therefore, is getting an equitable distribution.
    Lieut.-Colonel Byers: Are we to understand from the Minister that he does not intend to take any action on this matter? May we have an answer?
    Sir B. Smith: Certainly you may have an answer. I was not aware personally, naturally, of any of the faults that have been attributed to these people. I have put the onus on to the hon. Lady to report to me if she finds anything on these occasions. [An Hon. Member: She has just done so."] I am sorry, she has not done so. If she will do so 1 will have the matter looked into immediately. If I had been the hon. Lady in those circumstances I should not have hesitated to call the police immediately.
    Mrs. Ayrton Gould: I immediately informed the police, who said it was the business of the enforcement officer. I at once put a Question down the next day in the House.
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Sir B. Smith: How can I answer a question of which only my hon. Friend has knowledge? [An Hon. Member: "The answer is a lemon."] I did not personally see all these things. What I can say is that my enforcement. officers are doing the best they can in the circumstances. It is a very sad thing to contemplate that there are such vicious people in the land who will do the things that apparently my hon. Friend has witnessed.

    Sausages
    Colonel Stoddart-Scottasked the Minister of Food if he is aware that there is an increasing shortage of sausages in the shops; and if he will make available to sausage makers a- bigger supply of manufacturing meat and, in order to increase the output, reduce the meat content if necessary from 40 per cent, to 37⅛ Per cent.
    Sir B. 'Smith: I am not aware of any recent increasing shortage of sausages. The shortage has unfortunately existed for
    1152
    some months owing to the low level of meat available for the purpose. Nor do I consider that a reduction in the meat content of sausages is warranted. As regards the suggestion that a bigger supply of meat should be made available to the manufacturers," I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply which I gave on 25th January to a Question by the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. E. Granville).

    Coffee (Director's Visits Abroad)
    Mr. Orbachasked the Minister of Food whether Mr. Green is still Director of Coffee at his Department; and for what purpose he visited New York in the early part of last year and, later. South Africa.
    Sir B. Smith: Mr. Green is still the "Director of Coffee in the Ministry of Food. He visited New York primarily to negotiate the purchase of Colombian coffee for this country at prices within the United States coffee ceiling prices. Early this year he travelled from East Africa, where he was engaged on Ministry business, to Pretoria at the request of the Food Controller of the Union of South Africa, to discuss matters affecting the supply to the Union of South Africa of East African and Belgian Congo coffees which were being purchased by the Ministry on their behalf.
    Mr. Orbach: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Mr. Green, Director of Coffee, while in New York also did certain things on behalf of private limited companies with which he was previously associated?
    Sir B. Smith: Yes, Sir. He attended a meeting of his firm where there was some difficulty with the staff. It did not take place in my time—in the Ministry's time—and dealt in a disciplinary way with one person. Then he left.
    Mr. Orbach: Does not the right hon.. Gentleman think it is a very difficult and invidious position for him to have persons as controllers of supplies who are in dual positions with dual loyalties?

    Fish Prices
    Mr. Douglas Marshallasked the Minister of Food if he will give an assurance that there will be no reduction in the present maximum price list for fish in the coming season.
    Sir B. Smith: No, Sir, certainly not. It will be my constant endeavour to make supplies of fish as cheap and as plentiful as possible.

    Dried Egg
    Mrs. Ayrton Gouldasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the reduction in the domestic fat rations, he will give an assurance that whatever dried eggs are imported into this country from the Dominions shall be added to domestic rations and not allocated to catering establishments.
    Sir B. Smith: I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement about the supplies of dried egg which I made in the House on 6th February.
    Mrs. Ayrton Gould: Is the Minister of Food aware that in allocating dried egg to restaurants and confectioners he is preventing the poorest housewives, who cannot afford the money to go to restaurants or the time to queue up, from getting dried egg; and that if he were to supply them in -bulk to the grocers, the dried egg could be weighed out into bags and sold in small quantities to the housewives, who would see that it did not go bad?
    Sir B. Smith: No, Sir. The dried egg is allocated to the baking and the catering trades on the basis of 75 per cent, of their prewar requirements. If I were to take it from them at this moment there would be no cakes or pastry for anyone in the country.

    Price Changes (Notification)
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Minister of Food if he is aware that retailers are not notified of any change in price of certain foodstuffs until several days have elapsed after the date when the new price comes into operation; and what steps are taken in the case of retailers who had not been notified of a change in price if they are found to be exceeding the maximum price.
    Sir B. Smith: As regards the first part of the Question, the normal procedure is for a trade Press notice containing the relevant information to be issued to the trade Press for the week before the operative date of the change in price. At the same time, a Press notice, drawing attention to the making of the Statutory Order, is sent to the newspapers. There are
    1154
    standing instructions that printed copies of the Order shall be available to the public at the Stationery Office by the time these notices are published. If this machinery has broken down in 'any particular instance, I shall be glad if my hon. Friend would let me have details.
    In reply to the second part of the Question, I would point out that ignorance of the law is no defence, but any food control committee would consider all the relevant circumstances of the case before instituting proceedings

    Miscellaneous Food
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Food whether, in order to provide additional variety of diet and in connection with the present system of bulk buying from government to government, consideration will be given to providing machinery to purchase comparatively small quantities of all kinds of foodstuffs although the quantities purchased may be insufficient to provide a complete ration but could be distributed on a points system.
    Sir B. Smith: Within the limits of the financial resources available, a wide range of miscellaneous foodstuffs, that can be secured only in relatively small quantities, is imported under the supervision of my Department, for distribution through the points scheme, or otherwise, and additional machinery does not appear to be necessary.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the Minister aware that more variety is vitally necessary, and that variety is the spice of life?
    Sir B. Smith: Yes, Sir.

    Wheat Supplies
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Food whether in view of the disappointing outcome of his recent visit to the U.S.A. to obtain additional food supplies, he will consider visiting the Dominion countries with a view to thanking them for their efforts and to confirm the preliminary arrangements which have been made.
    Sir B. Smith: My visit to Washington was undertaken to discuss with the U.S. Administration measures for meeting the world shortage of wheat and rice. As the result of our discussions, the President announced on 6th February far

    1155
    reaching plans for making increased quantities of wheat available from the U.S.A. for countries needing it This is far from being a disappointing outcome. The Government are in close touch with the wheat exporting countries of the Commonwealth regarding the contributions which they are making to the same cause, and I would like to express my appreciation now of the generous way in which they have responded to our appeal.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that his visit was rather disappointing, and is he not also aware that both the Dominion Governments and the Dominion people have done everything, and continue to do everything, to assist us, and should not he reciprocate and trade with them, and do everything he can to visit them and show our appreciation of what they have done?
    Sir B. Smith: Yes, Sir. Given the time and opportunity, I agree.
    Mr. De la Bère: I hope the right hon. Gentleman goes quickly.

    Storage (Brick Works)
    Sir John Mellorasked the Minister of Food how many brick kilns are occupied by' his Ministry for storage; and when they will be released for making bricks.
    Sir B. Smith: My Ministry is occupying 44 brickworks for storage purposes. They can be released for making bricks as soon as they are required.
    Sir J. Mellor: Can the Minister say why this could not have been done earlier? Surely there is plenty of storage space in air-raid shelters and the like? Why cannot we eat the food sooner?
    Sir B. Smith: All I can say is that, on request, I released every one which I was asked to release.
    Mr. De la Bère: Was not Big Ben running two minutes slow?

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS
That they have agreed to—
Trunk Roads Bill, with an Amendment.
That they have appointed a Committee consisting of Six Lords to be joined with a Committee of the Commons as a Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills, and request the Commons to appoint an equal number of their Members to join with the said Lords.

PROCEDURE
Eleventh Report of the Select Committee on National Expenditure in Session 1943-44 referred to the Select Committee on Procedure.—[Sir Robert Young.]
BILL PRESENTED
  AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT (PLOUGHING UP OF LAND) BILL,
  " to reduce the period for which land must have been under grass in order that a ploughing grant may be made in respect thereof," presented by Mr. Thomas Williams; supported by Mr. Ede, Mr. Westwood, Mr. Thomas Fraser and Mr. Collick; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 80.]

  FOREIGN AFFAIRS
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. Whiteley.]
  3.16 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Macmillan: The Government have decided not to give to the House, at this stage in the Debate, any account of the state of our foreign relations or of recent diplomatic events. This decision has placed upon me a rather sudden and unusual duty—to act as a kind of understudy to the leading star. I am in even a worse position than an understudy, because the understudy has the part by heart, and the Foreign Office have not given me even the notes or resume of the script. I must therefore trust to the indulgence of the House and do my best.
  The whole House recognises the heavy labours of the Foreign Secretary, and the exceptional strain to which he has recently been subjected. The long sittings of the United Nations and the vital questions which have been discussed, have made these weeks almost unique in diplomatic history. They must also have been exceptionally fatiguing. The right hon. Gentleman can feel assured both of the sympathy and admiration of the great mass of his fellow countrymen. On this stage he has played a great national and a great international part. He has carried on the major policies of honour and duty which he inherited from his predecessors, the former Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary. For these reasons, and in view of his heavy burden, I was sorry that the right hon. Gentleman thought it necessary last Wednesday to revive an old and rather inglorious piece, and to cast himself for a somewhat stale and melodramatic part. Whatever his motives— and I think I can guess them— I hope
  1158
  he will not mind my saying that it was unworthy, both of himself and his high office. The broad continuity of foreign policy is a traditional and cherished feature of the modern Parliamentary system. It can, in my opinion, best be preserved by the Foreign Secretary of the day eschewing, so far as possible, the bitter conflicts of internal controversy.
  The whole nation has followed with deep interest and' rather mixed emotions-the dramatic debates of the Security Council. It is clear that the developing situation has brought with it both gains and losses. The United Nations organisation, with its manifold activities, has been launched. That is a gain. The young plant, which some thought too tender to be exposed prematurely to the storms of controversy, has survived. That is a gain. Frank— sometimes-brutally frank— discussion has taken place in the open, in the full glare of publicity with all the modern technique. Yet the personal relations of the protagonists have remained friendly. We are so accustomed to this tradition in our Parliamentary life that we do not perhaps altogether realise its importance in the international life. That is a gain. Finally, in the important issues on which the conduct of the British Governments has been challenged— Indonesia, Greece, and the Levant States— the honour and good faith of Great Britain have been broadly justified by the verdict of this world assembly. All these are clear' gains.
  Nevertheless, we cannot disguise from ourselves the other side of the picture. The relations between the great Powers are greatly, even alarmingly, strained. New groupings of minor satellites round one or other of the Big Three have taken shape. Soviet diplomacy, for whatever reason, seems to be concentrating upon outward pressure in the Mediterranean and the Middle East against well-recognised and established British interests. In the Security Council the technique of-attack, direct and indirect, has been developed upon all the weak links in the chain of world security and peace. New rivalries, based upon strategical fears and supported by ideological weapons, have been sedulously promoted. It would be folly not to recognise that the Anglo-American-Russian Alliance that held so firmly, in spite of so many difficulties throughout the years of war, is.

  1159
  virtually, if not formally, in abeyance. All these are losses and grave losses and disappointments. They are dangerous, but not fatal. It would, however, be folly not to admit them and to discuss the disease and the remedies at least as freely in this House of Commons as they have been discussed by the representatives of the United Nations.
  Meanwhile, in the meetings of the Security Council four main issues have been raised— Persia, Indonesia, the Levant States and Greece. New questions, with the intensity of an artillery barrage, have also been propelled against us day after day but those are the main four. It goes without saying that on all four my right hon. and hon. Friends approve and commend the stand taken by the Foreign Secretary. The barrage— or counter barrage perhaps I should call it-has certainly been partly successful in its main object. It has diverted attention from Persia. The position of His Majesty's Government is clear and above-board. British troops in Teheran, as we have been told categorically, have not been reinforced. They will be withdrawn as agreed by 2nd March I wish the position in Northern Persia were as plain and unequivocal. In Indonesia, His Majesty'^ Government have inherited, by the decision of the Combined British and American Chiefs of Staff, a difficult and arduous task. They are using-the familiar and proper combination of force and reconciliation in order to discharge it. They have been subject to ignorant and irresponsible criticism. Let them disregard it. They will be sustained by the broad commonsense of the nation as a whole.
  In the Levant States after many painful incidents and stresses, in which I myself was involved in 1943, a solution seems now possible and is equally agreeable to our French Allies and our Lebanon and Syrian friends. I always felt that it was a great tragedy that Anglo-French relations should have been embittered by this affair. To the best of my power, I tried to mitigate this acrimony by every reasonable regard for French susceptibilities without disloyalty to the principles at stake. It is indeed a satisfaction to know that at last a solution seems probable in agreement with the French. I think I should add my view that the Governments of the Levant States have acted with dignity and with restraint. There is no
  1160
  need for any more trouble-making here, and we support entirely the right hon. Gentleman's firm refusal to allow these rapidly clearing waters to be muddied again.
  On Greece, my friends are equally in agreement with the position taken by the Foreign Secretary. But perhaps, since I was intimately connected with the whole story, I may be allowed, without egotism, a short digression. British policy in Greece has been misrepresented, maligned and traduced, not least, I regret to say, by British tongues and pens. I am afraid certain members of the present Administration were amongst the worst offenders. These irresponsible declarations have lately been a source of embarrassment to the Foreign Secretary. I trust that they have equally been a source of shame and regret to the hon. and right hon. Gentlemen concerned. I suppose the doctrine of Cabinet responsibility is still in force. The Minister of Health told the House of Commons in January, 1945:
  " We sent British troops to Greece to satisfy the political ambitions of the Tory Party. "— [Official Report, 19th January, 1945; Vol. 407, c. 575.]
  Is that the reason we keep them there? [Hon. Members: "No."] The Minister of Fuel and Power treated us to the same sort of nonsense, but now that all this fustian and rodomontade have served their purpose, both in the House and on the hustings, they share the responsibility for carrying through a policy which they previously condemned. The present Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary, by word and deed, loyally supported their Conservative colleagues in the War Cabinet, and they are now trying to carry to a successful conclusion the high purpose which inspired British intervention. 1 will not weary the House with any long defence of that policy. The Foreign Secretary, in spite of those handicaps, those boomerang weapons so foolishly launched by some of his present colleagues and friends, has made that defence with conspicuous skill and success.
  My first connection with Greek affairs was at the end of August, 1944, when the command was changed from the Middle East to Allied Force Headquarters in Naples, and the Greek Government migrated from Cairo to Salerno. From that time, until conditions made possible their return to Greece, our sole pre-

  1161
  occupation was to avoid, by any means that we could, the dangers which we knew awaited them. The formation of the coalition government under M. Papandreou, including representatives of E.A.M., seemed a happy augury. That was largely due to the efforts of the British Ambassador, Mr. Leeper, the "infamous Leeper," as the organ of the Minister of Health calls him. Mr., now Sir Reginald, Leeper is a great public servant, who deserves well of his country. He is a man of wide culture, liberal out look, and deep sincerity, and I should like to "—
  Mr. Warbey: On a point of Order. If it is not in Order, Mr. Speaker, to criticise a servant of His Majesty's Government, it is in Order to praise him?
  Mr. Speaker: That is a question which has been put to me before, and again 1 have to answer that it is not proper to attack or praise civil servants.
  Mr. Macmillan: I think it has not been out of place for a Minister to pay a tribute to those who work and serve under him.
  Mr. Cocks: Further to that point of Order. Can we clear this matter up, Mr. Speaker? I think you ruled, a few months ago, that there was nothing to prevent an Ambassador being criticised. If that is so, is it not in Order to praise him?
  Mr. Speaker: My recollection does not go back so far as that. I have never ruled that one might criticise a civil servant. That seems entirely wrong. One must criticise the Minister who gives him his instructions.
  Mr. Macmillan: The Caserta Agreement, which followed those efforts, was signed on 26th September, and it gave us great hopes. The Government representatives, including E.A.M. members, together with General Zervas and General Sarafis, the rival guerilla leaders, sat in conference with us, under General Wilson as chairman, and in two days we reached agreement and signed a compact. I shall never forget the sailing of that armada of 720 ships bringing much-needed stores and equipment, under Admiral Mansfield's direction. We embarked at Naples on Friday, 13th October, but we waited until one minute past midnight, until the
  1162
  14th, so that was not the reason for any disaster. After some exciting experiences we were acclaimed with universal joy and enthusiasm on our official entry into Athens on the 18th. Of course, we noted the undercurrent of political clash and rivalries between the supporters of E.L.A.S. and E.D.E.S., but we felt confidence in a peaceful restoration of Greek life. Indeed, so confident was I personally that the Greek Government would succeed"—as it certainly would have done if the dark counsels of the extreme revolutionary Communists had not prevailed over their more moderate associates"— that I felt more concerned at that time about the economic rather than the political problem.
  At my request, the Foreign Secretary, with the agreement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, made available to us the services of Sir David Waley and with his help the drachma was stabilised on nth November. On 22nd November I left London, to discuss with my colleagues the terms of the so-called new deal for Italy, with the intention of leaving immediately for Washington to discuss them with the President. That was not to be. The storm broke on the day I was to leave for America, and I turned Eastwards, instead of Westwards, and flew with Field-Marshal Alexander to Athens, he having succeeded that very week to the Mediterranean Command. The rest of the story is known in general terms to-all"—the siege, the visit of the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary to Athens on Christmas Day, the Regency, the truce, and, finally, the signing of the Varkiza Agreement on 12th February, 1945.
  All through these events His Majesty's Government have had one policy and one only"—to restore order, to find a political as well as a military solution, to preach moderation and reconciliation. ' Field-Marshal Alexander, the best and most generous of colleagues, worked with his usual calm efficiency at both military and political tasks. He found a worthy adjutant in General Scobie. But it is easy to advise toleration. In the stress of intense emotion it is hard to persuade-others, more intimately affected, to lay aside their animosities. Greece, long distracted by internal' disputes, was brutally lacerated and maimed by the German occupation. In the course of the civil war

  1163
  cruel passions were aroused, and dreadful crimes committed. It is not so easy to heal wounds as to inflict them. I shall never forget the final session at Varkiza. A conference that had many obstacles to overcome before it could even start, had reached a final impasse. On the invitation of both sides"—for I do not believe personal intervention is effective if it is unwelcome"—the Ambassador and I consented to attend. From 8 p.m. until five o'clock next morning the terms of the peace were debated.
  I still regard that Agreement as a great tribute, in all the bitter circumstances, to the patriotism and good sense of the Greek negotiators. Most credit of all is due, through that stirring time, to the noble personality of the Regent. Since that date much has happened, some good some bad. I left the Mediterranean in May of last year. Much has happened since, but all I wish to affirm, with all the sincerity in my power, is the singleness of purpose which has animated successive British Governments. Greece is our loyal Ally. She did not desert our cause when it stood low in the world. Our determination, our duty is not to desert her in the painful path of recovery and reconstruction.
  Apart from those main issues"—Persia, Indonesia, the Levant States and Greece "—many other perplexing difficulties present themselves, or are presented to us in the course of what seems to me a planned diplomatic offensive. I must ask some questions of the Government concerning them. What of Poland? Are conditions there worsening or improving? What of the Polish Army? The Foreign Secretary has firmly rebutted the wild accusations made against us as to its use, but may we take it that no man in that Force will be sent back to Poland against his will? If men be unwilling, are we prepared to carry out the suggestion, made by the last Prime Minister, that we should offer citizenship of the British Commonwealth to those whose sufferings and exploits have been almost without parallel in history? What of the Greek territorial claims? Will we abide by our plan"— as the Turkish Government readily agree "—for the Greek Dodecanese Islands to be returned to Greece? Are we ready to resist any claim against the integrity of the Greek mainland?
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  What are the prospects of Italian peace? The situation is obscure. I am absolutely convinced that in spite of all that has happened in the sad years between the wars the recovery of Italy as a stable and democratic Power in the Mediterranean is a British interest, and a world interest. It is nearly two and a half years since the Armistice was signed. They have been a long way to work their passage home. The Americans and ourselves have made great efforts for Italy, but it is now essential that a formal peace shall be made and made quickly. Hitherto the Soviet support of the Yugoslavian claims to Trieste has been the stumbling block. Now, if rumour is to be believed, we are to expect a sudden and dramatic turn in Soviet policy, but I greatly fear that Italy may become a pawn in a great diplomatic game, to her detriment and to ours. All these uncertainties have created an atmosphere of suspicion. We are irresistibly reminded of Metternich's reception of the news of the death of the Russian Ambassador at the Congress of Vienna. "Ah," he said, "is that true? What can have been his motive? "It is true that the more realistic public opinion of today, compared with the facile optimism that followed the last war, is a healthy symptom, but realism must not be allowed to degenerate into cynicism, or dissolutionment into despair. We do not want this to be the age of open diplomacy and secret fear.
  What does Russia want? What is the motive behind these manoeuvres? Are they a manifestation of the expansionist, policy which inspired Tsarist Russia"— greatly 'to the alarm of the European Powers"—during the latter part of the 19th century? Has this urge, temporarily suspended during the revolutionary period, once more taken control, or has Russia, yielding to those secular forces which seized nations in turn"—Spain, France, and Germany"—made up its mind to dominate the world? Is this a manifestation of a new imperialist drive, or do these developments mean the return to the proselytising fervour of international Communism? Does it mean that the militant theorists are back in control? All these are possible explanations. If any one of them is correct we shall know where we are, and we shall frame our policy accordingly. So long as there is breath in British bodies, we shall defend

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  ourselves and our heritage against aggression. Nor shall we accept any political or economic doctrine except as the result of our free and democratic choice. It may be that none of these is the real motive governing Soviet foreign policy, but it is absolutely vital for ourselves, and for the future of the world, that we should try to learn the truth. These matters are too grave to be dealt with on party or preconceived lines. We cannot be pro-Russian or anti-Russian; we must be pro-mankind. This is the situation. If it drifts on, it is full of danger threatening ultimate disaster. Is there anything that can be done to make a new start, is there any new approach to the problem?
  There is another possible explanation. Do we, for instance, make sufficient allowance for Russian experience and the Russian psychological background? All through her history, in early, medieval and modern times, Russia has been invaded, both from the East and from the West, by a succession of enemies. It is no accident that her recent propaganda"— by film, by the written and spoken word, and by orders of chivalry and the like"— has all been concentrated upon the heroic figures of Russian resistance in preceding conflicts. Whether it be Demetrius Donskoi or Kutuzov or Suvarov, it is significant that all these great names are now brought back to the public mind. Each of these successive invasions of Russian territory"—and in the last 130 years there have been four, the Napoleonic, the Crimean and the two German onslaughts"—has caused immense suffering and loss of Russian life and property. The last has been the most devastating, to a degree that we perhaps hardly realise. What is the reaction to continued invasion? The search for security. The French followed this policy after the last war. They sought the Rhine frontier: when that was denied them they sought the American guarantee, and when that failed they set in train a whole diplomatic and political structure, the Little Entente, intended to isolate Germany. These security measures, in their turn, gave rise to new pressures, social, political, and economic, which, if not the cause, were at least the excuse for the rise of Nazi Germany.
  May it not be that the apparent Chauvinism of Soviet policy is a form of
  1166
  insurance, not of expansion, that security not imperialism is their instinctive goal, and that for this a new cordon sanitaire is being created of States made satellite and dependent, both.by power and doctrine, partly dominated, partly converted? These are to form a kind of defensive glacis of small nations looking to the Kremlin for political and economic theory, and to the local Russian commander for material support, and using their arms and police forces, rather than the ballot box, as the instrument of power. It may well be, therefore, that the ultimate cause of these recent manifestations of Soviet policy are, at bottom, isolationist and not expansionist, that their purpose is not to dominate the world either as Russian imperialists, or as militant international Communists, but to secure the soil of Holy Russia herself against new outrages. If this, in their view, requires new strategic frontiers or the invasion of neighbouring rights, or the grave disturbance of the balance of the world, well, the risk, from their view, must nevertheless be taken. Now, when the world is exhausted, may seem to them an opportunity to seize and fortify bastions against foreign aggression.
  All this is very wrong and very dangerous, but if this interpretation of Russian motives should be right, it need not be fatal if it is dealt with in time. Drift and delay will lead us to the abyss. Whether we like it or not the world is in fact being divided into different spheres of economic, political and military influence. It is futile to deny the great differences in political conceptions and economic practices of the dominant Powers within these spheres. The task of statesmanship is surely to reconcile them at the points where they meet and in the matters upon which all are interested and involved. With Russia, I believe that this can only now be done by persona! and direct negotiation. Could not Marshal Stalin himself take the initiative? Could not something like the old Stalin-Roosevelt-Churchill combination be reestablished? The Security Council has become, for the moment, the forum for public and often acrimonious debate. It is being used as the instrument of power politics with new rules but the old motives. At this stage the tangle can be restored only if dealt with by meetings of those men themselves, in whom are

  1167
  vested both the power to frame policy and the power to carry it into effect. Let the Government consider and, in their consideration, let them take note of the anxiety which is now beginning to darken"—even more than domestic troubles and disputes"—the whole spirit of the nation.
  If these matters are not resolved, what then? There is another nation with a great population, great agricultural and mineral resources, great industrial capacity, great intellectual and organising power, great past achievement. This nation is wrapped for the moment in mystery and darkness. We are given practically no information on what is happening there. There is a complete statistical and informational blackout. Yet she lies at the centre of Europe. She lies at the centre of the European problem. In the long run, though we seem to have no policy about her future, she cannot be neglected. Her name is Germany.
  What is our policy towards Germany? Unless an accommodation can be found, and a formula established between the Eastern and Western hemispheres, you can have no sound policy regarding Germany. If that accommodation is reached Germany, so often the scourge of Europe, can in due course be transformed in to a healthy and valuable member of the European family. Only so, can the soul of the German people be saved. But if not, if there is dispute and acrimony and intense feeling between the East and the West, she will once more become a menace to peace. Nothing can prevent the inevitable and logical development of this situation. Germany, now cast down, despised, shunned like an unclean thing, will once more be courted by each of the two groups, and from a starving outcast she will become the pampered courtesan of Europe, selling her favours to the highest bidder. She will once more have lost the war and won the peace, and Hitler's dream and mad prophecies will have come true. Therefore, before it is too late let us act.
  The seeds of war are not sown in the years immediately preceding a conflict; it is the first years after war that are the critical years. In this period, for good or ill, the future is begotten in the womb
  1168
  of time; after it, events move forward with the grim inevitability of Greek tragedy. The traditions of Western humanism and Christian civilisation have with difficulty survived two wars in a single generation. They cannot outlast a third. Novel and terrible weapons of destructive power hover like vultures awaiting their human prey. In these grave times, in his hour, perhaps an hour of destiny, only Ministers can know the methods and modalities of conciliation. But let them act, not drift. We say to them: Take comfort and inspiration from the good will and willing co-operation of all your fellow countrymen, but be strong and of good courage.
  3.55 Pm
  Mr. Price: I should like to say first with what pleasure and satisfaction I have noted the tone of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan), more particularly in what he said about Russia. I am also glad that he recognised a very unpalatable truth; that at the moment the Anglo-Russo-American Alliance is virtually in abeyance. When the. United Nations Charter was before this House in August last, I had the honour to speak and I ventured to remark then that unless there was close co-operation between the three great Powers of the United Nations, then the negotiating machinery set up by the United Nations would prove little better than a skeleton of dry bones: The experience of the Conference just ended, alas, has proved only too well the truth of that statement.
  The task of statesmanship then, as I see it, is to bring about such conditions as will enable the three great Powers of the United Nations to work together because, without that, no matter what machinery there is, it will not work. The main difficulty is, of course, Anglo-Russian relations, which have been going steadily from bad to worse since the end of the war. The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary has gained much, praise from his countrymen, and outside, by his firm handling of Russia at the United Nations conference, and there is no doubt that Mr. Vyshinsky has handled his country's case with a clumsiness and a lack of imagination which it would be hard to imitate. But, as the right hon. Gentleman said just now, we must try to see what is the cause of all

  1169
  this. Russian diplomacy never discloses its real aim. The Russians, I heard a diplomat once say, use speech to hide thoughts and not to convey them. We must, then, try to look behind the veil of Russian diplomacy, and then I think it becomes clear that the whole Greek and Indonesian issue was raised because they had a bone to pick with us over Persia"—and other things as well, but I think mainly Persia. Having very largely got his way over Persia, it was a pity Mr. Vyshinsky did not withdraw, in keeping with the traditions of Russian diplomacy, these other charges against us on Greece and Indonesia. I do not think Mr. Vyshinsky will go down to history in the gallery of Russian statesmen along with Prince Gortchakov, Sazonov, and Mr. Litvinov, who is now but a Junior Commissar.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary has had an easy task in dealing with Mr. Vyshinsky; he has had a chance to speak his own mind and to stand no nonsense, but when all the applause for this has died down, one is left with the uncomfortable feeling that this by itself does not constitute a foreign policy which will lead us anywhere. The old saying, "Suaviter in modo, fortiter in re "—" Strong in action, moderate in manner" "—is a virtue which can be cultivated by every Foreign Secretary of all ages. In the case of Russia the task of statesmanship is to find out what causes the difficult attitude which Russia adopts. I am not pessimistic about the future. Many times in the past our relations with Russia have been extremely difficult and on the verge even of war. A British Secretary of State once wrote to a British Admiral in the Baltic a despatch which contained this passage:
  " The Russian Fleet will disturb the world, while it is stirred by ambition and revenge."
  He added that in certain circumstances he was to engage and sink the Russian Fleet. That was in 1719 when Peter the Great, fresh from his victories in the Northern war against Sweden, had set all Europe agog at this new and sinister power of Russia in the East. But statesmen of the Hanoverian Ministries of that time kept their heads. Again, in the 1820's when the Emperor Alexander, flush with victory over the French, set all Europe agog once more and caused fear to stalk through Europe that Russia would stir up trouble elsewhere, Lord
  1170
  Castlereagh kept his head and subsequently the man who followed him, Canning, kept us clear of trouble with Russia. Later, in Victorian times, Liberal and Conservative statesmen, although fearful of Russia's expansion in Asia, by applying conciliation with firmness helped us to pass through that difficult phase.
  What is the motive of Russian policy? Where can we find the key to Russia's intentions today? I have just spent two months in the Soviet Union where I went not as a Member of this House, but as a humble journalist, and a member of the public, anxious to meet not high people, but people in the market places and villages. I talked to them and was able to get about because I approached the whole thing with an open mind and a desire to be friendly. What struck me most was that the Russians are just as fearful of us as we are of them. All the time they were asking "What are you up to? Are you preparing a Western bloc against us, you and the Americans? "I could see they were determined to prevent their country ever again being a scene of war and devastation to which they have been subjected for the third time in 30 years. I found a nervous suspicion of us. They cannot forget the wars of intervention. While talking to them, I was all the time trying to tell them that 1945 is not 1918 again, and that it is different here and elsewhere in Europe. The Russians are a sensitive and suspicious people, who will require handling with the utmost care. Moreover, I had certain very awkward facts thrown up against me. I was asked about General Anders' Polish Army in Italy and I could not answer it adequately. I hope the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary will take this matter in hand as soon as possible.
  I agree with the right hon Gentleman the Member for Bromley that we cannot hand back to Russia, those who do not want to go. I would most bitterly resent any action on our part for doing that. Surely, we can implement the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) and try to get them placed somewhere in the Empire. Those who do not want to go back could go to the Dominions and no doubt we could take a certain number here. But those who want to go back

  1171
  must be allowed to go back. I heard a very ugly story in Egypt recently about volunteers who wanted to go back to Poland. It was said they were dumped on the quay at Alexandria or Port Said and all their clothes and equipment taken away by their officers and they were left there. That kind of thing has been going on among officers of General Anders' Army who are determined to make it as difficult as possible for those who want to go back to Poland.
  In general, I feel that the Russians are determined to prevent Governments growing up on their borders which are going to be used as a hostile source of intrigue against them. They are not trying to impose Communism on these countries, nor are they trying to impose collectivisation of the land in Poland or Rumania Indeed, they are actually going to the other extreme and I heard a Hungarian statesman the other day complaining that the Russians are backing a "Kulak" regime in Budapest of well-to-do peasants. Unfortunately, we have aroused suspicions in Russia by our dilatory method of recognising these Baltic and Danubian Governments. We ought not to have been too squeamish about it. It is no use expecting to export our particular form of democracy into Eastern Europe. These people have never known anything like it. Russia and the Baltic and Danubian States have had to listen to long lectures from America about democracy in God's own country and I suppose they have to put up with this as the price of America's abandonment of isolationism and watch the painful process of Americans trying to understand Eastern Europe.
  There is another matter about which I would say a word, the Middle East. I went to Russia and then to the Middle East in order to get a little of the line-up there, knowing how important it was. I was in Persia at the time that the Azerbaijan trouble was at its height. I regret to say that the atmosphere I found among the British colony in Teheran was such that among the less responsible element there was talk in terms of the next war against Russia and among the more responsible elements no great desire to find a way of co-operation with Russia. They were taking a purely legalistic line, "Russia has broken the Treaty and that
  1172
  is that." Russia's case in Persia remains weak, I admit, as long as she refuses to permit journalists and responsible persons from going into Persian Azerbaijan and reporting fairly.
  But she has three aims there. The first is to prevent the U.S.A. and Britain from having oil concessions in the North where she feels she has a perfectly reasonable right to get in first. The second point is that she wishes to raise the whole question of the Russian participation in a settlement in the Eastern Mediterranean, and particularly to reopen the whole question of the Montreux Convention in regard to the Dardanelles and the Straits. Russian diplomacy is indirect. It is a question of making trouble in Azerbaijan in order to gain a point somewhere else. After all, let us not forget that in 1915 we signed a secret treaty with Czarist Russia to give Russia, lock, stock and barrel, the whole sovereignty over the Dardanelles and a large part of Asiatic Turkey. I happen to know about that because I was the first person to get the secret treaty, which was handed to me by Mr. Trotsky's secretary. I got it to England to the "Manchester Guardian," which printed it first. I do not advocate that we should go anywhere near as far as we went in that treaty. I am simply pointing out that years ago we were prepared to give Russia far more than she will reasonably ask today. Russia certainly would have a very strong case in asking for the internationalisation of that great international waterway of the Dardanelles, and I think we have an equal right to ask from Egypt, and other Powers of the Eastern Mediterranean, for a similar state of affairs in the Suez Canal.
  Thirdly—and this is rather a subsidiary point—the Russian aim is to bring about a reform and a progressive régime in Persia. Our traditional policy in Persia is not of a kind which will, I think, commend itself to the House. Traditionally we have been fond of keeping in power in Persia, by our diplomacy and influence, a Government of the Persian nobility, which is anything but in keeping with the spirit of modern times. The Persian Government and Medjliss consist of charming Persian gentlemen who have been to Eton and Balliol, to Harrow and Trinity, Cambridge, who know the Persian classics from Hafiz to Jelal-udin-Rumi, and who in every way are very

  1173
  charming people, as I have found on meeting several of them; but I am satisfied they are quite incapable of handling the affairs of their country in such a way as to lead it towards the things that are urgently needed—land reform, social reform, and war against poverty. Until we and Russia can act together over Persia to get Governments of that sort, we shall have trouble in that part of the world. The Russians are exploiting the old regime in Persia and our attitude towards it as a means of raising the disaffected elements of the Middle East against us, including some of the mountain tribes, such as the Kurds. This is dangerous from many' points of view. They are on the borders of Iraq, that very important oilfield, which is so vital to us at a time when we are dependent, as we are now, on a sterling economy.
  Unless we use our influence on the side of progress and reform in the Arab countries in the Middle East, Russia will gain prestige among those disaffected elements. I was constantly asked by Arab politicians and statesmen in the Arab countries I passed through, "Is Russia going to be a danger to us?" I replied, "Yes, until you put your houses in order, and if you do that, I do not think she will be a danger to you." Of course, at the present time the Arab League is a force. I have always favoured giving our moral support to it. About two years ago, I put a Question to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), who was then Foreign Secretary, to try to find out what would be the attitude of the Coalition Government towards the Arab League if it was formed, and I thought the right hon. Gentleman's answer at that time very sensible. But Russia unfortunately suspects the Arab League as being an Eastern cordon sanitaire. They may be wrong, but whatever happens, the Arab League must not have our support if it is allowed to become that. Moreover, the influence that we seek to assert in the Arab countries, as in Persia, should be on the side of social reform, raising the level of the fellaheen and lifting him out of the poverty and disease from which he suffers. I am certain we could get Russian support for that. Here, then, is ground for co-operation between Russia and ourselves. Our position today, tied as we are to the chariot wheels of Wall Street,
  1174
  and dependent upon the whims of a reactionary Congress, is not so easy, but we might try to see what a little co-operation with Russia might bring about.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary must not allow his dislike of Communist activities in the trade unions to colour his attitude to the Russian State. The Communist nuisance must not be allowed to menace Anglo-Russian relations. That is a test of the right hon. Gentleman's foreign policy. I do not believe that Russia has territorial and imperialist intentions either in Eastern Europe or in Asia. The Trotsky purge nearly 10 years ago brought about a change. The idea of world revolution was dropped. Just before I left Moscow, to go to the Caucasus, it was Constitution Day in Soviet Russia. The newspapers were full of interesting articles about the Soviet Constitution and, tied up with that, foreign policy. The general tone of these articles was that the foreign policy of. the Union is the defence of the Union, because the Union must be an example to the world. That is my interpretation of what I saw in the Press and the talks I had with Russian folk, both high and low. I admit also noticing a desire to.compete with His Majesty's Government in moral support of the working-class parties on the Continent, and they rather resent competition with the Communist parties they are setting up there. They are jealous of any other influence. Even that, however, ought not to cause us to lose our tempers with them. We ought to put up with the policy of pinpricks, even though it is most annoying. On Saturday last the "Manchester Guardian '' said in a leading article:
  "If we want our ideas to.triumph in the battle of the spirit, we shall have to assert ourselves on that plane with the same force and persistence as on the lower plane of diplomacy."
  We have great moral prestige in Europe, as I saw wherever I travelled. We alone stood against the Fascist beast during the most critical years when other nations— Russia and America—were neutral. That is moral capital which I am convinced we can still use, but it will not last indefinitely. This, alas, is still a cynical world. Power politics and material interests play a very big role in world affairs. I found, in the Arab countries particularly, loose talk about another world war and what a chance they would

  1175
  have to play us off against the Americans, and both of us off against Russia. "That is the kind of thing we find among these newly developing national countries. My right hon. Friend can deal with this cynicism by acting on a higher plane. He must also seek to find a way to co-operate with Russia, that key to the. peace of the East. Russian suspicions are not altogether groundless, having regard to what happened in the past. They must be removed, and the Foreign Secretary will be judged before the tribunal of history by his capacity for removing them. If he succeeds, he will go down to posterity as one of the great Foreign Ministers along with Castlereagh, Canning, Salisbury, Gladstone, Disraeli and Grey.
  4.21 p.m.
  Brigadier Head: I ask the indulgence of the House for this, my maiden speech. I will not detain the House for long, and there are only two points about which I wish to speak. The first is about the anxiety of certain hon. Gentlemen opposite about our present permanent staff at the Foreign Office, and about our foreign policy. My second object is briefly to review the presentsituation from a strategic point of view. I would not presume to mention the permanent staff of the Foreign Office were it not that I felt that among hon. Members opposite there is some genuine misunderstanding. The reason why I hold this opinion is partly because I have had some personal experience in this respect. I will admit, though perhaps it will not comfort hon. Gentlemen opposite very much, that before the war I too had my doubts about the permanent staff of the Foreign Office. Their smart black hats, their Balliol manner and their somewhat Edwardian appearance, made me wonder whether they were really the right people to be in charge of a Department that was framing our foreign policy at a time when diplomacy in Europe was being conducted on a jungle basis.
  During the war I worked for some time with the Joint Planning Staff in the War Cabinet Offices, and there we naturally had very close contact with the Foreign Office. I can assure hon. Members opposite who are worried in this respect—I say it with all sincerity—I have never met a more up-to-date, hard-' headed or less politically biased set of
  1176
  men. The hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) feels that if he could get rid of the present incumbents, and put in some gentlemen who are more in sympathy with his own very Left point of view, then, automatically, our foreign policy would become much more Left, much pinker. With all respect I do not believe that the framing of foreign policy is as simple as that. I do not believe that one can pick it out of some pigeon hole ready and manufactured, of a suitable shade of pink.
  There are in my opinion certain other factors that enter into it, and the one I know most about is the one which it is most difficult to overcome, that is, the factor of geography and thus strategy. If the hon. Member for Luton really wishes to implement his ideological foreign policy, I would submit to him that the most logical course would be to approach the hon. and gallant Member for King's Norton (Captain Blackburn) and ask him if his scientists and atomic energy, for it is a subject which he seems to have made peculiarly his own, would arrange for a cataclysmic explosion so that the geo-graph of this earth could be changed in such a way that his particular foreign policy could be implemented. It would take a lot of thinking out, and I do not know where hon. Members might find themselves, but I think it might be very cold. In all seriousness, on the question of foreign policy I would ask hon. Members opposite to think a little less about the red of their ties, and a little more about the red on the map.
  I would now like briefly to make a strategic examination of the present situation. Hon. Members may think that today, with the invention of self-propelled weapons and atomic energy, the old strategic standards are out of date. I would submit, with all respect, that that is not so. The old rules remain, although in some respects they have been intensified. I believe that two principles of strategy have been accentuated; firstly dispersion has become highly important, and any form of undue concentration, be it of industry or population, is dangerous; and secondly, great strategic depth has become a vital factor in defence. I would now like briefly to run a sort of strategic tape measure over the three great Powers. I select only three, because, however it may be on paper, I think we have reverted to the Three Power system. First

  1177
  I will consider Russia. Before doing so I would say that I am convinced that Russia wants, above all, security, and also peace. I have travelled from Yalta to Leningrad by train. It is a' long way, and anyone who has done that journey and seen the terrible devastation that has been done to that country over such a vast area cannot fail to realise the grievous wounds she has, and the utter repugnance of most of the Russian people to the occurrence of another war.
  Measured by modern strategic standards Russia is immensely strong. Geography has given her great and wide dispersion. Her industries and people are very widely dispersed. As for strategic depth, since the end of the war we have seen Russia annexing countries to give herself strategic depth all round. It is not for me to question or argue, in this short speech, about the merits or demerits of how she has done this, or our attitude towards it. I would only say that we are bound to acknowledge that, for Russia, Poland and the Balkans are an area of extreme strategic sensitivity, and, we have willy nilly, whatever people may argue, recognised that fact. It is when her demands go further towards the South West and touch the Mediterranean—that is what puzzles the world. Again, I do not wish to go into the reasons for these demands. My own opinion is that the most charitable explanation is also the right one. I think that Russia has added several extra claims to her vital ones in case she may get some extra perquisites.
  That may not be so, but if it is so I would implore her to realise that the Mediterranean, and particularly the Eastern Mediterranean, holds a unique position in the make-up of this Empire. Russia is a great land Power. Although a superficial impression, I was struck at Yalta, and again in Moscow, by a tendency on the part of the Russian General Staff to underestimate the importance of the sea. Our Empire is made in a very peculiar shape. The Eastern Mediterranean and the Mediterranean itself are, to us, strategically and economically just as intimate as is the Trans-Siberian Railway to Russia. We and the Russians and the Americans have somehow got to keep a strategic equilibrium. Somehow we must all lie, so to speak, in the same
  1178
  strategic bed. Russia is starting to sprawl, I do not know why. From the position of our head on the pillow, Russia may not guess exactly where our rather curiously shaped body is lying, but I would say to her, "Your foot is getting dangerously near to a place where its presence cannot be supported."
  Judged by the same strategic standards what do we find when we turn to this country? In contrast to the great strategic depth of Russia we find practically none. Where is the Western bloc? It is not there. Once again, I do not want to argue the merits or demerits. Turning to the question of dispersal, I would say that in the whole world I doubt if there is a more concentrated industry or population than in these islands. By these measures we appear to be terribly weak. I would appeal once again to Russia not to be deceived in judging this country's stragetic strength by outward appearances. It is our great failing that we appear very weak when we are nothing of the sort. We are a most peculiar country in that respect.
  At the risk of detaining the House for a minute more— [HON. MEMBERS: "Go on "]—1 would say this. Some considerable time ago, the Joint Staffs wrote an appreciation for the Cabinet, which went by the name of "Policy in the event of a certain eventuality." I do not think I am revealing any secrets if I say that -that title really covered the question of how we were placed if France collapsed, and we stood alone. 1 can assure the House that the Staffs who wrote that appreciation felt much happier about our rather desperate position after they had written it than they did before, because after close study, going through the facts with a fine tooth comb, they found what one might call a lot of invisible strategic assets. I would say to Russia, outwardly this country appears to be strategically weak, but that is misleading. From all my experience I would say that she is strategically far far stronger than she seems. It would be fatal if because of our apparent strategic weakness Russia thought she could play fast and loose with us in the game of power politics.
  I have little time left to mention America, but judged by any standards at all, America is immensely strong. All I would say to America is, "Do not let your great strength allow you to feel that

  1179
  you can stand away, because if you do, you will spoil what I have termed the strategic equilibrium." There are many people within and outside America, who would like her to stand away, but modern inventions and modern war have made her one in a world strategic balance. It is a very far cry from the Middle East to the Middle West; but strategically they form part of the same defences. I fully realise that the strategical aspect, about which I have spoken, is only one of a large number of factors in this gigantic problem. I myself think it to be an important one, and I believe that my views are shared very strongly in the Kremlin, where great attention is paid to this subject. They are great realists there. I do not in any way suggest that this is the main or the only problem, but I believe that if we could get the strategic equilibrium really fixed and settled, it would be a great factor in establishing peace for the future.
  It would perhaps be impertinent for me to suggest an answer, but I have been taught all my life not to "waffle "— or to write without making some recommendation. With all due humility I would submit this as my recommendation. Could not the three Great Powers get together, say within the United Nations organisation, and settle and agree on areas of what might be called "strategic soreness "? Could they delineate those areas, and say, "These are Russia's sore areas, these Great Britain's, and these America's," and draw the lines? Having done so, could they agree to stick to them? I believe that if that could be done, by agreement between the three Great Powers, we should have gone far towards solving the greatest problem mankind has ever faced.
  4.34 P.m.
  Mr. Wilfrid Roberts: I am glad on behalf of the whole House to congratulate the hon. and gallant Member for Carshalton (Brigadier Head) on his maiden speech. It was a most interesting contribution to the Debate, and with a large part of it I was entirely in agreement. I may have misunderstood certain references to Balliol, but apart from that I find myself in agreement with very much of it, and I am sure I am voicing the spirit of the House in expressing the hope that the
  1180
  hon. and gallant Member will make many more speeches.
  We have just witnessed a new attempt to organise peace, and a question which I think is in many people's minds is whether this first meeting has or has not been a successful start. Certainly the proceedings developed in an unexpected way, and it may be that the thunder and lightning of the proceedings in the Council rather obscured the solid achievements of the meetings of the Assembly. Valuable though prosaic work has been started. The Commission on Atomic Energy has been set up, the Economic and Social Council has got to work, and the panels of international judges have been elected. Some of us may regret that more progress has not been made with the sad and difficult problem of refugees. But so far as the work of the Assembly is concerned, the United Nations have made a valuable start. It has been valuable too that the small Powers have been given the same opportunity as the Great Powers to put their case to the Security Council. On the other hand, the use of the veto has shown it to be much more obstructive in practice than we expected. Some of us on these benches and elsewhere, drew attention to the dangers of the veto during the Preparatory Commission at San Francisco, but neither we nor, I think, anybody else realised that the veto could be used not only to protect a guilty Power, whether great or small, but to prevent the vindication of a Power which had been unjustly accused. Indeed, the veto has proved itself to be much more obstructive in the United Nations meetings than was the unanimity rule in the old League of Nations.
  It is, however, about the thunder and lightning of the Council meetings that I would like to say something. Everyone's first reaction is, of course, to be delighted with the Foreign Secretary, who proved that he can defend this country with such power and energy. That defence has been broadcast daily all over the world, to the greatest audience perhaps any assembly has ever had. We are used to plain speaking in this country and we like it, but the question I want to consider is whether the thunder and lightning have cleared the air or broken the weather. We in the Liberal Party believe that it is vita^ for us to be on good terms with the Soviet Union. That is nothing new for us to say; many of us have listened to

  1181
  powerful speeches from Mr. Lloyd George, on the Front Opposition Bench, in days when it was not so popular to ask for understanding with Russia. Sir Archibald Sinclair, in the years before the war, was constantly asking the Government of that day to reach an understanding with the Soviet Union. In fact, what eventually happened was that we reached a good understanding, not so much by conscious effort as by accident. An understanding did seem to be created during the war. It can- give no satisfaction to anybody today to see it frittered away by misunderstandings or recriminations. It is no satisfaction to many of us, to see the Foreign Secretary being praised by all the mischief makers of the world"—those who wish to see ourselves and the Soviet Union at loggerheads. It has already been pointed out that, although the issues, around which these controversies in the Council centre, are important and though they were raised by Mr. Vyshinsky, no doubt as a diplomatic counter-attack, the differences and the causes of those differences lie very much deeper.
  I, like the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price), was in Russia for some time about a year ago. Those who have been to Russia must be very conscious of the long memories which the Russians have, and how they remember and resent the ostracism of the long years before the war. They also resent the decision, whether right or wrong, to keep the secret of atomic energy to ourselves "—I am not sure whether it is to ourselves or to the United States alone. But to keep this secret from the Soviet Union must seem to Russia a continuation of that old policy of excluding them from important considerations. It will be recognised that the leaders of the Soviet Union believe that both their foreign policy, and their social system, have been completely vindicated by the very acid test of war. It is obvious they now wish to extend their influence, by ensuring that there shall be friendly governments on the whole length of their long frontier. Do we need only to rivet our eyes on those countries where methods are arbitrary and authoritarian? We hear little of Finland today, because I gather the Soviet Union are behaving in a way of which we entirely approve in that country, in which they have fought twice during the last few years. Judging by the results of elections in some of the
  1182
  countries occupied by the Soviet Union, it would appear they have not interfered, at any rate, not successfully, with the free elections in those countries. We in Britain take it for granted that the affairs of every country on the borders of the Soviet Union are of interest to us. We interfere and express our views. When the Russians, both because of the part they played in the war and in order to safeguard their own security, venture to express their views, or wish to be consulted about countries which are not contiguous with Russia, we regard it as imperialism, and the "long arm of the Bear." We take it for granted that we have reasonable cause to be interested, as I say, in every country around that long frontier from Finland to China.
  I do not under-estimate the difficulties of finding a satisfactory working basis for relations with the Soviet Union today. The attitude of the Russian representative at the Council meeting was anything but conciliatory. I do not know that I am any better pleased whether it is Mr. Vyshinsky, or our own Foreign Secretary, who demands that national honour must be vindicated and prestige considered. I think it is a mistake that we did not accept the proposal for an international commission of inquiry into Indonesia. We are only the trustees in that unfortunate quarrel. When the Dutch themselves announced that they.did not oppose the proposition, surely it would have beep a gesture—
  The Minister of State (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker): I am very reluctant to interrupt my hon. Friend. What the Dutch said was that they did not oppose an inquiry into the conduct of British troops, although they did oppose an inquiry into anything concerning their constitutional position in Indonesia. I may perhaps add that those who brought up the charges about the British troops, themselves admitted that they did not constitute any threat to international peace.
  Mr. Roberts: Whatever the scope of the inquiry to which the Dutch agreed, limited or not, that does not really affect my point. I should have been glad to see our acceptance of an international commission of inquiry as a precedent. If it was only into the conduct of our troops, I think that precedent should have been applied also to the conduct of the troops of other States in other countries. It

  1183
  would have been well, if when placed in that position, we had not appealed to national honour, but had' agreed to such an inquiry.
  I know I shall be told that I am asking for a new sort of appeasement, not to Germany this time but to Russia. I do not want to appease the Soviet Union. For one thing, I do not think appeasement ever achieves the result that 1 want to see, and that is a good understanding. The Russians are much too realistic to have any respect for a country that does appease. I do not want to condone what appear to us in this country to be mistakes on the part of the Soviet Union. We should reach a better understanding with the Russians if we made perfectly certain that our own policy was a very positive foreign policy. I do not want to see this country abstaining from positive action in foreign affairs because the Russians may object. For instance, it is highly desirable that we should have the closest understanding with the Western liberal and social democratic countries who mean by democracy the same as we mean. It is very desirable that we should have the closest understanding with France, not to the exclusion of the Soviet Union, but that we should go ahead and do our part in giving France a sense of security which she failed to get after the last war. I think we should respond, and I hope some Minister may do so in replying to the Debate, to the suggestions which have been made recently by the head of the French Government. While the Soviet Union are looking for. special understandings with countries in Eastern Europe, they can have no ground of complaint if we do the same thing in Western Europe. They may make a complaint, but if they do I suggest we should not take any notice of it. It is not for any negative reason of balancing Russia, that I want such an understanding but for practical positive reasons, based upon political and economic motives.
  What are they? We must be very positive about our belief in democracy. Our relations with one country in Europe are not very convincing at the present time. I refer to Spain. I would like to compare our attitude to two countries, Poland and Spain. I am sure that our Government have been quite right in laying it down clearly, when we recognised
  1184
  the Polish Government, that we expected "that. Government to act in a democratic manner and to carry out elections within the full meaning of democracy. If that goes for Poland, it should, in my view, also go for Spain. I am not asking for intervention, but we should be downright about this matter. There is an idea abroad, believed in Spain and elsewhere, that we favour a monarchy in Spain. I should have thought we had had enough trouble by favouring monarchies in Greece, Yugoslavia and other countries. I do not really think it is necessary to suggest to the Foreign Secretary that sometimes we make mistakes in foreign policy. If it is true that we are encouraging a change to a monarchy in Spain we might get ourselves into a very difficult situation.
  During the Spanish civil war, the present Spanish Pretender offered, on more than one occasion, to fight for General Franco. He has recently expressed very Liberal views. He may, I do not know, have become a Liberal. [Laughter.] He has not made any application to join my party. I mean that he may have become more liberal in the wider sense. Suppose he has not. Suppose we found that a change was not really a movement towards democracy in Spain, when it had been achieved, but was merely a means of backing up a tottering dictatorship. Would it not be very much better that we did not get ourselves involved in that sort of thing?, If the Spaniards want a monarchy, let them have it, but let us do nothing to indicate that this country thinks that monarchy is essential for Spain. The solution that would be satisfactory to the people of this country, is that Poland and Spain should have democratic governments.
  The Foreign Secretary did a very good piece of work when he called the attention of the United Nations to the state of the food supply of the world. The recriminations and the long discussions between ourselves and the Soviet Union have diverted attention from the important and urgent problems of economic reconstruction of Europe. There are deep differences between the great Powers upon economic questions. I listened with the greatest interest and approval to the speech of the right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) who opened

  1185
  the Debate. Not the least interesting passage in his speech was that in which he referred to the future of Germany. Taking the immediate view, as well as the longer view, I profoundly doubt whether the attempt to reduce the economic potential of Germany is in the interest of ourselves, or of Europe as a whole. I believe it is a counsel of despair, arising out of the political disunity of the great Powers.
  If we, Russia, the United States and France firmly believe that we can stick together and have a common policy during the next 10 or 25 years, it is madness to destroy so much of the great economic strength of Germany, because it could be used for the benefit of Europe. It is essentially needed to alleviate the suffering and misery existing in Europe" at the present time. I would like to see the Ruhr internationalised, and not merely nationalised. We have removed the former owners but we have found nothing satisfactory to replace them. Nationalisation is not sufficient. We cannot trust future Governments of Germany. The Ruhr should be internationalised economically and politically and, provided there is enough confidence between the great Powers who won the war, it should be possible to use the coal and steel resources and the industrial potential of that great industrial centre for the wellbeing of Europe and the world.
  Finally, let me say that although the Foreign Secretary may have given great satisfaction to the Conservative Party, by saying that continuity of foreign policy was to be preserved, he gave no satisfaction to me or to my hon. Friends by that assurance. What has our foreign policy been in the past? Before the war it was appeasement, which we bitterly opposed and I think rightly. During the war it was a simple policy, expressed best by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) when he said, "Whoever kills Germans, is our friend." We have to find a new foreign policy today to meet the needs of the new situation. It has to be a positive policy. 1 want to see us on good terms with the Soviet Union and the United States of America. I want to see us the champions of justice for the smaller nations of the world. I hope the policy will be based upon an unequivocal advocacy of democracy. I heartily agree with what the Foreign Secretary has more
  1186
  than once said, that it should be a bread-and-butter policy aimed at increasing the wealth of the world and at developing its economic resources in the interest of all countries.
  5.0 p.m.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes. I wish to ask the indulgence of the House on the occasion of my maiden speech. I have been a Member of the House for only a few days I was elected at a by-election, in which the issues of foreign policy played a great part, and one of the issues at this election was my advocacy of the idea of World Government, which was so eloquently advocated in a recent Debate in this House by the Foreign Secretary and by the Deputy-Leader of the Opposition. I asked the electors of South Ayrshire to send me here to support this idea of World Government as an alternative to the old traditional struggle of power politics. I was elected by an increased majority over the General Election, and I wish to say a few words in support of that new policy, not the policy of power politics or capitalist imperialism, but the policy of working towards a new World Government and away from the old idea of national sovereignty"—the building up of a new world order in the spirit of international Socialism which was advocated in this House by its great leader,. Keir Hardie.
  There is very great interest among the working classes in the issues of foreign policy, and I believe that, more than ever before, humble people are taking a great interest in the formation of the new United Nations organisation and are looking forward with new interest and new hope. There is a great deal of support for the Foreign Secretary, and great appreciation of his tenacious advocacy, at the United Nations organisation Conference, of the idea of substituting World Government for the old struggles of the balance of power. I cannot say that I was always in entire agreement with the line taken by the Foreign Secretary at the Uno Conference. If I may say so, I rather regretted some of his references to Soviet Russia. I regretted them because it seemed to me, in one of his utterances, that he spoke rather like the ghost of Lord Curzon. I believe it is a mistake to be afraid of Communist propaganda.

  1187
  There is no need to be afraid of Communist propaganda if we are ourselves pursuing a strong policy in favour of social justice, and I would ask, not only the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary, but also all other hon. Members of this House, to remember the advice given by the late Mr. Wendell Wilkie to the American people, who are just as much afraid of Communism as we are. The late Mr. Wendell Wilkie wrote in his book "One World ":
  " The best answer to Communism is a living, vibrant, fearless democracy"—economic, social and political. All we need to do is to stand up and perform according to our previous ideals; then, those ideals will be saved. No, we do not need to fear Russia. We need to learn to work with her in the world after the war, for Russia is a dynamic country, a vital new giant, a force that cannot be bypassed in any future world."
  How is it possible that we can break the ice with Russia and secure better relations? I suggest two points with which we can make the approach which other hon. Members have demanded in this Debate. I think we should so frame our policy as to dispel from the Russian mind any idea that we are prepared to make war upon her. I believe it would be a splendid gesture at the present time if the Army of General Anders was demobilised and the Poles brought away entirely from the dangers of Europe. 1 am not without sympathy for the Poles, because, in Scotland, we have had Poles amongst us for some time, and I entirely agree with the remarks of the Foreign Secretary that the Poles are not exclusively of the officer class. They are working men, and the Poles have" suffered more than any other nation in Europe, probably, with the exception of the Jews, as a result of the world war, and we owe it to the Poles that, when they are demobilised, they should be given an opportunity of attaining the citizenship promised them by the previous Prime Minister. I know by conversation with them that the Poles are very anxious that they should be given an opportunity of beginning a new life, preferably in Canada or Australia, away from the feuds and quarrels of Europe, and I hope that the Government will make representations to the Government of Canada and will be able to assure this House that the Poles will be demobilised and given this opportunity to start a new life in one of our
  1188
  Dominions—a new life entirely away from Europe.
  Then, I believe, too, that we should assure Russia as to our future intentions by withdrawing from the bases in the Middle East and Mediterranean which are a source of contention. After all, these bases and this strategy of the Mediterranean and Middle East were framed before the days of the atomic bomb, and I submit that it is far more important to get the good will of the Russian people than to maintain what a previous speaker has described as recognised British bases. The poet whose shade I have the honour to represent in this House said:
  " Oh wad some Power the giftie gie us
  To see oursel's as ithers see us! "
  Those words should be graven on the walls of every Foreign Office and every Chancellery in Europe. How does Russia look at those "recognised British bases? "She looks upon them—and quite rightly so—as bases.meant for operations against the Soviet Union. We have the atomic bomb and Russia has not. Those bases are looked upon by Russia as a threat to her. I believe it would be a great gesture, making for permanent peace with the Soviet Union, if we abandoned those bases and made our ultimate objective, not strategical gains, but getting the good will of the people of the Soviet Union.
  I, too, like previous speakers, have travelled in Russia. I travelled in Russia in the grim, hungry days when they were tightening their belts and starving themselves in order to build up their national economy under the Five-Year Plan. Then it was not quite respectable to go to Russia. I saw the Russians building the great dam at Dnieperstroi, the Gorki motor factory, the tractor works at Kharkov and the great Selmashstrov agricultural implements factory at Rostov on Don. It is one of the great tragedies that the great creative work of the Russian Five-Year Plan should have been destroyed in the fires and horrors of war. We worked together with Russia during the war, and it was said at that time that the common enemy was Hitlerism. But we still have a common enemy, and that enemy is famine and hunger. I suggest that the approach to Russia should be an economic one; that, if necessary, we should go to Stalin and say, "We have abandoned our strategy of war, and we invite you to join with

  1189
  us in a new world plan for the building up of a new economic order which will abolish hunger and famine throughout the world, and will result in a new world from which the fear of war will for ever be abolished." I believe that if we talked to the Russians in those terms, they would understand the language of, planning and reconstruction and would co-operate in building a new world.
  One final point. I believe the ultimate test of the foreign policy of this Government is whether they intend to adopt conscription as their policy. If the Government are to continue conscription, it will mean that they will still carry out the old policy inseparable from power politics. I believe there is a very strong, determined opposition to conscription in this country. If we have conscription, the ordinary folk will say that our foreign policy has been wrong. What is the use of talking about conscription and the old ideas of military strategy in the days of the atomic bomb? We need a new urge forward in the building of the new world order about which the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary spoke. I submit that we can get that by following,a policy aiming at creating a new world order of which the guiding idea will be international Socialism, which is the only hope of the people of the world.
  5.15 p.m.
  Brigadier Rayner:It is rather pleasant, after not having spoken in this House for three years, to have the chance of congratulating a new colleague on a very straightforward and clear speech. I hope we shall have- lots of chances of hearing him in this House and that in the references to Russia that I propose to make I hope he will acquit me of attacking the views he has just expressed. I, also, would like to speak about Russia, and I agree with the many hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who have already spoken today that the problem of peace is quite a simple one. If Great Britain and Russia can get together, then the chance of another major war is fairly remote, but if they cannot, then it is almost inevitable. Therefore, it is very necessary that we should try to see Russia through the clearest possible eyes.
  Before the war, I paid two visits to Russia, but I never spoke about them. Like every other visitor, including Mr.
  1190
  Priestley, I was under constant official surveillance and had no chance of getting together with the ordinary people. When I came back to this House, I did not feel that I had much worth saying. Now, however, I am rather more qualified to speak. Almost since D-Day I have, in my official capacity, had to deal with Russian officials and officers. I have met them man to man outside their own borders, off their guard—as far as Russians are ever off their guard—and I have filled several note books and learned a good deal. I have learned that the Russian is essentially rather Oriental; he cannot be hurried. "Po malo, po malo," slowly, slowly, is the order of the day, and you have to attain an agreement—if you do attain an agreement—as you would buy some jewel from a merchant of Cairo or Baghdad. Then, inability to understand compromise and desire to save face are Asiatic attributes which the Russian possesses in full measure. So is his valuation of human life, which he regards as rather cheap. He regards it, in military parlance, as one of the least valuable of expendable stores. If that had not been the case, the Russian steamroller would have moved rather more slowly, and the Russian losses would have been less prodigious. Thus in so many ways the Russian shows his Oriental flavour. Even his beflagged decorations are like those one sees in Chinese Turkestan, and the triumphal gateways which have been built outside Berlin will no doubt have reminded many hon. Members who have been there of the gateways one would see outside Delhi on any feast day. I have learned that the Russian is very much a realist. When he does get down to brass tacks then, from his own point of view, he approaches the question under consideration with harsh common sense.
  An old acquaintance of mine, a Russian senior officer, asked me in Berlin the other day "Why, when we got to Berlin first, need we share it with you British and Americans? Why need you have any say in our control of Poland, Rumania, Austria, Hungary and Yugoslavia when we conquered them? "Now as a soldier I have always told my Russian friends how greatly we admire the wonderful successes of the Red Army, and how very grateful we are to them for those successes, but I seldom have received any

  1191
  thanks in return, not from any lack of kindliness or friendship, but just because the average Russian knows nothing about what we have done. He knows nothing about our North African campaign; he knows nothing about the vast stores of ordnance and supplies that we had sent to him through the Arctic and via the Trans-Persian railway. He feels simply that Russia has won the war practically on her own account and that, indeed, we came to her aid much too slowly. So that attack rather annoyed me,' and, somewhat tactlessly, I suggested that some of the Russian troops in and around Berlin were behaving in a somewhat uncivilised manner. "Yes," replied my friend, "but you must realise that we have a different idea of civilisation from you. The mass of our people were serfs up to the middle of last century, and it is a good thing, too, for we are not a soft and rotting civilisation like yours. We are hard, we know want we want and we will get it." That is one occasion on which the cat was let out of the bag— a cat whose colour has been confirmed by' our contacts, as many of my colleagues agree; quite simply we are faced by a highly nationalistic Russia to whom might is still right.
  I suggest to the House—and I am completely disagreeing with hon. Members who have already spoken—that the rough and ready Russian civilisation of today is somewhere about where we were in Elizabethan times. There is the same intolerance, the same recourse to the bullet and the concentration camp rather than to the gibbet and the dungeon. There is the same tendency to regard life as cheap, the same belief in might being right. Then I suggest that Russia is intensely.nationalistic. The proofs are too plain to miss. Before the beginning of the war, the Kremlin was presenting Russia to her people as Mother Russia to be loved, defended and died for, and all through the war Russia has based her tremendous effort on patriotism. The Grand Czarist uniforms have been restored, the "Internationale" has given place to a new anthem which mentions nothing of the workers of the world, and the eternal Russian broadcast of all Russian victories in an all Russian war have dotted the is of patriotism. Russia is as nationalistic today as any country in the world.
  1192
  I suggest that Russia is also, to a large extent, imperialistic Although she signed the Atlantic Charter, her tremendous successes have enthused her with the same sort of ambition as had the 19th century Czar. She has acquired or recovered already in this war Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, parts of Poland and Finland, Bukovina and Bessarabia, yet she wants more. In the name of security—and, with other hon. Members, I believe, there is a great deal in the suggestion that she thinks in terms of security—she aims at that tremendous cordon sanitaire. The Red Army, which is not fed largely from home like the British and American armies, but which lives voraciously off the land it occupies, must soften up various countries into a proper Marxist state of mind. Pure Communism must gnaw its way through countries where it can suitably be employed. For Russia is still internationalist in so far as internationalism will serve her nationalism. Again, there is plenty of proof. She is still glad to welcome Communist parties in other countries which owe direct allegiance to herself. These she uses or spurns as suits her book. Hon. Members will remember quite well those twists and turns of our own Communist Party in the last six years, which proved so clearly what a perfect Fifth Column Communist party may be.
  Therefore, let us face the problem we are up against We have to achieve peace with a Russia which is largely Oriental, and which, therefore, thinks and feels differently from us, with a Russia which lags behind in Western civilisation, yet is equipped with all the great powers of modern science, with a Russia which bestrides two continents yet wants more. The light relief is that one feels that Russia definitely wants peace.
  Mr. Follick: The hon. and gallant Gentleman said that Russia was back in Elizabethan times, and yet he says that she is now equipped with the great powers of modern science.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): I thought the hon. Member was going to raise a point of Order. The point he has raised is one that is a matter of opinion.
  Brigadier Rayner: If I may continue my argument, the hon. Gentleman may get an answer. The only light relief is that Russia does want peace, and if we

  1193
  stand up to her it will be all right. If not, she may be tempted to engage in adventure after adventure as Germany was, until, finally, the world explodes again.
  Mr. Zilliacus: The hon. and gallant Gentleman said that Russia wants peace and, therefore, it will be all right if we stand up to her. Does he mean that if we threaten war, the Russians will not fight, so it will be all right? What does he mean by "standing up to her "?
  Brigadier Rayner: I would say that that is exactly what happened in the case of Germany. We continued to give way for too long. We can stand up to a country without going to war with her, though, indeed, the final sanction must be war. We sometimes cheer the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary. We do not cheer him because he is following a Conservative foreign policy. He is not. We cheer him because he is standing up for our country, and particularly because he is doing his best to take foreign affairs out of party politics. We realise his difficulties in dealing with his opposite number, and we recognise the tremendous advantages in negotiation which M. Molotov enjoys. M. Molotov is backed by public opinion which is dictated from the Kremlin, and which can be made bitterly anti-British at command. Our Foreign Secretary is harassed by a public opinion which has been bemused by one-way Russian propaganda for the last six years. M. Molotov is perfectly well informed about what goes on in this' country. Our Foreign Secretary has very little chance of finding out what goes on behind that iron curtain which surrounds Russia. Cannot every soldier on both sides of the House visualise the unhappy position of a general faced by a strong and well-informed opponent, who cannot find out anything about the dispositions of that opponent, and cannot even depend on his own troops?
  I cannot imagine that there is any hon. Member of the House who will not desire to help the Foreign Secretary to stand up to the Russian colossus. If the House will permit me, I will make one or two suggestions as to how we can help. Firstly, in the House, and in the country as far as we can, we should take foreign affairs out of party politics: secondly, we should do what we can to restore some
  1194
  balance to the one-way propaganda about Russia which has gone on for so long. Not very long ago, sitting in our mess in Germany, we heard an English girl speaking over the B.B.C. proclaim that she regarded the wearer of the Leningrad medal with more respect than the wearer of any other medal in the world. We had been dining a V.C. the night before.and were very glad he was not present. We decided there and then that it was about time all the bootlicking one-way propaganda about Russia came to an end. T told the mess that night that when I was in Warsaw in 1938 the British Consul-General was endeavouring, in every way he could, to get two Australian families out of Russia. They had sold up everything they had in Australia and had managed to be admitted into Russia, that place which they had gathered was a heaven for all working men. Six months had been enough for them. We decided that night from our own experiences that no Britisher would stand more than six months of the Russian system and standard of living.
  Mr. H. Hynd: Is the hon. and gallant Member telling us that he, presumably the commanding officer of this mess, indulged in that kind of political propaganda in a military mess?
  Brigadier Rayner: No, not at all. 1 was merely one member of the mess. You must realise that officers in a mess can talk about foreign affairs and systems. How foolish it all is. We continue to praise an Oriental civilisation some hundreds of years inferior to our own as being perfectly wonderful, and thus we encourage the Soviet Union to be even more unreasonable in their demands. One way in which we can help to restore that balance of propaganda is by attacking the cult of the catch-phrase, those clichés and catchwords which replace principle, and which make it so easy for people not to have to bother to think. A favourite one before the war was "Collective security." A favourite one now is "Fascism." "Fascist" was a very fair description of the Italian system before the war, but it is now used generally to describe anything we do not like or of which we generally disapprove. The Russians use it a lot, whereas their system is very similar to the fascist system that obtained in Italy, and to the national

  1195
  Socialism of Germany. All three systems deified the State and nullified the individual. In all three the State has been held to be the monopoly of one party which has used it to liquidate all opposition. Nazism went in for a chosen Herrenvolk; Communism goes in for a chosen economic class. In each case the result has been the same, a collection of hard and fast classes covering the masses, the army, and various grades of political bosses. The real difference, as I think a very great many hon. Members feel, is between British democracy which allows an opposition to organise and express itself, and which recognises the dignity and freedom of the individual, and those three totalitarian, systems. It is the British system which our Foreign Secretary is defending at the meetings at U.N.O. and on other occasions.
  Mr. McAllister: While some of us sympathise with the suggestion of the. hon. and gallant Member that bootlicking propaganda is not a very good idea, are we to take it that his speech marks the return to the mud-slinging propaganda carried on by himself and his colleagues on those benches for 20 years before the war?
  Brigadier Rayner: No. The hon. Member may take it that my speech is merely an attempt to state the other side of the picture. I am speaking from considerable experience in dealing with our Russian Ally. In conclusion, may I make some suggestions to the Foreign Secretary, which I hope will be read by him? Let him remember that in peace as in war the best defence is attack. At conference after conference at a lower level we found that if we put forward our fullest demands without, reservation we probably got half of them out of the Russians. Whereas, if we made them with ordinary British reasonableness, we probably got nothing at all.
  Let the Foreign Secretary demand that truth, that first casualty of war, is now brought out of its concentration camp. Let him stand up as its champion, for, if truth could be brought into U.N.O., that organisation would be half way to its goal. Let him give out to the world that, though. Great Britain will not tolerate any interference in her own affairs she will welcome an examination
  1196
  by any nation of anything she is doing in her Empire, and let him challenge Russia to allow the same. Let him tell Russia that her iron curtain organisation leads us to suspect that things are going on behind that curtain of which Russia is ashamed. Let him refer to our own great experiment in India, where we have been trying to organise a whole continent of nations, and where we have never taken any steps to keep out the most captious of critics. Let him tell Russia that we will accept a thousand Russian tourists here every month on very cheap terms and show them the whole of England, if Russia will do the same for a thousand of our people. Let him define our vital interests and draw the line that cannot be passed. Let him say that, although we have not the power to defend the freedom of all the small countries of Europe, we will support, lead, and, if necessary, organise the small countries on our side of that line. Let him proclaim our own national mission of social progress, a mission we shape from year to year in this House; and which is a far finer one than the Russian one, based as it is on that abiding principle of personal freedom.
  We cannot blame Russia too much. She has a different kind of civilisation. She feels and thinks differently. She may think, quite honestly, that it would be a good thing for the world if it were all brought within her sphere of influence, Hitler had the same idea. We think rather differently.
  5.42 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Davies: 1 should like to make a contribution to this- discussion on foreign affairs, and to deal with an aspect of it that, at the moment, seems to be entirely neglected. When the right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) opened this Debate, it seemed to me we were listening to a foreign policy based on Victorian maps surrounded by feather pens and periwigs. We seem to have forgotten entirely that we are living in a completely different world from- that of 1939. Maybe the atmosphere of this Chamber has something to do with the Victorian foreign policy that has been hurled across the Floor of the Chamber for this last couple of hours. But Smuts was right when he said that the focal point of world affairs

  1197
  will be Asia. Without talking about Russia in disparaging terms. I think Poushkin was right. He gave the clue to hon. Members opposite to the way to understand Russia. If hon. Members opposite want to understand Russia, let them remember what Poushkin said: "She turns her Asiatic face to Europe and her European face to Asia." Upon that pivot turns their foreign policy. If there is a group of people inside o: Britain and inside of America who are increasing the bitterness between us and the U.S.S.R., let them beware, because at the present moment, as my experience in Burma, in Malaya, and out in Java, where I happened to be three weeks ago, confirms, the people of those lands look to the U.S.S.R. as their protagonist. I do not say that that is for better or for worse. It is a fact of Asiatic history at the present moment. So it behoves us to talk with a sense of responsibility and of the period in which we are living.
  The last war, for instance, had its effect and revolutionary changes took place in Europe, and those revolutionary changes had their repercussions in Asia. Idealism arose at first, then cynicism took its place. The last war "destroyed Asia's respect for European culture and civilisation. Into that atmosphere of cynicism against European culture and civilisation there stepped the ideology of Japan. An entirely new fact is that for three and a half years, as never before in history, the whole of Asia, from Cox's bazaar to the Kamtchatsk Peninsula, has been under the sway of Japan, and that fact gives us a new clue to the foreign policy of the future, as compared with the foreign policy of 1939. Why? Because now Eastern Asia has been under one imperialistic rule, namely, the Japanese. This enabled Asia to see imperialism in the raw without the veneer and sophistication of European Powers. The peoples of Eastern Asia began to comprehend for the first time the problems of their rights in Asia as a whole.
  Japanese imperialism has given some unity to Eastern Asia; just as Napoleon, attempting to put down nationalism in Europe, expecting to make Europe subject to France, created the very nationalism we had in Europe in the last century. Japan, with qualifications, has done the same thing in the Far East. I found in India, Burma, Malaya, Java and Cey-
  1198
  lon no longer a negative thing, no longer just a hatred of the white man or anything like that—.that is merely negative— but a positive determination that Asia shall ultimately rule herself, and that she must be free, living side by side with a free Western world. The victory over Japan, Asia, too, rejoices in. For as a Burmese told me, it is a victory of self-analysis, of clarified ideals, of sharply defined objectives. Asia, at last, understands her own mind, as far as freedom and the shaking off of the yoke of the 19th century Imperialism are concerned.
  There are other speakers who will talk about policy in Burma. Therefore, I will not trespass on that, except to say one thing. When I was in Burma I talked to Sir Reginald Dorman-Smith about this business of getting ordinary life going. The Foreign Secretary always puts first in his foreign policy, so he tells us, this issue of feeding the people. What did we find when we were having the food Debate the other day? From Burma out to Java it is no good talking in academic terms of foreign policy, and it is no good writing high-falutin' articles in the "Nineteenth Century" magazine about it; unless we get the wheels of life moving by feeding the people, getting transport there, and consumer goods and more food, it is merely poppycock to talk in academic terms in a Chamber like this of what our foreign policy should be.
  I asked Sir Reginald Dorman-Smith this question in Government House in Rangoon: '' How do these people live? Are they getting the same wages as they got in 1940?" He replied, "If you want to know the truth, Davies, they live by looting the Army, the Navy and the Air Force." And that is true. You have a" cigarette economy" from Paris to Peking, and nobody seems to do anything about it. It saps the morale, and undermines the means of getting ordinary civilised life working from one side of the world to the other. Black markets, high food prices, and inflation exist in the Far East just the same as anywhere else. Of all the countries in the Far East, Burma suffered more than any, except China; and I discovered she wants, for instance, before she can start a normal economy, 450 million yards of cloth within the next two years.
  What wonderful markets for my own constituency, if we could get them going.

  1199
  But what hope is there of getting them going when we are wasting a couple of days on an academic Debate on foreign policy, when the essential thing is: How are we to get the normal trade of the world to work at the present moment? It seems, that in the Far East some new type of foreign policy, based on a specific zone policy, will be needed and that a policy of economic and social co-operation must be worked out. One can no longer think of Burma as a land of the lotus and rainbow, or merely as a land producing rice, tea, oil, zinc and lead. This land has suffered; it is wounded. It only produces 120,000 tons of rice, whereas it used to produce 3,500,000 tons of rice for export. It will take years to get the East back again to the condition in which it needs to be so that family life can begin.
  What are the United Nations doing about this? Our shoulders are broad, but we cannot bear the economic burdens of the entire world, and it is the policy of the United Nations to which we should look if we want the nations of the world to work together. It is no good our thinking that we can work on the old principles. In 1940 we passed an Act to pre vent the buying of land in Burma. Fifty per cent, of the land in Burma is held by absentee landlords—one half of them Indians—on a one year lease. You cannot work an intelligent agricultural policy on the basis of a one year lease. We must reorganise our ideas about that. We, the British, who have been through three successive wars there, must have new ideas about village life in Burma, re-establish the chieftains in the Northern States, and help Burma to regain its dignity. Before Burma can be raised she must have a normal economy. The elephants in Burma are scarce; 80 per cent, of the buffaloes are suffering from rinderpest, and you cannot get rice without buffaloes for crushing it in. What are we doing about that? Nothing but engaging in academic talk in terms used in the days of Queen Victoria. Here is a job of work not only for Britain but. for the co-operation of the world. Anti-Russian speeches or anti-American speeches will not help that co-operation in the highly nervous and neurotic state in which the East is at the present time.
  1200
  I would like to make one contribution about Indonesia. I had the pleasure of speaking for several hours to the Indonesian Cabinet and I talked to the Prime Minister, Mr. Sjahrir. I was the guest of General Christison, at the time, in Batavia. I was delighted when the Prime Minister told me, in private conversation which lasted for three hours, that he had no charge at all to make against General Christison, and he said that a shot had not been fired except in self-defence by the British. There are 50,000 Japanese on these islands. There are 200,000 Dutch. Eurasians and other civilians. At first, we, the British, were regarded as liberators. That feeling is dying. That is what worries me. The longer the Indonesian situation lasts, the more the suspicion of the Asiatic people is aroused, and they think that we are there to stake, down the power of Dutch Imperialism. I talked to 16 members of the Cabinet and discussed things with them. The trouble in the Indonesian situation is that, unfortunately, everyone has been throwing bricks at the U.S.S.R. Uncle Sam is not without blame. He had 200 of his representatives in uniform in Indonesia looking for markets while we were carrying the candle. It is no good this or any other country thinking that the movement for Indonesian independence is a minor movement, backed up by extremists. As in the French Revolution, you have there a nucleus of cultured individuals, who are the focal point, trying to canalise this movement.
  Mr. Sjahrir is a cultured individual, a graduate of the Hague, and a moderate; and between him and Dr. Van Mook and the United Nations lies the hope of solving this Indonesian problem. Apart from Sjahrir and Van Mook there will be no hope. If the Dutch are thinking in terms of war against Indonesia's 80,000,000 people, they alone cannot do it, and I am quite convinced that the British people would not stand for Britain moving in to prop up Dutch Imperialism. I was delighted to find that some of our chiefs-of-staff and others were trying their best to convince the Indonesians that we were not playing the old game of power politics, and that the object of British soldiers being there was not to protect the guilder, the dollar or the pound.
  While we are doing this, and carrying this burden in South East Asia, I deprecate the action of the United States for

  1201
  more reasons than one. I have mentioned one; and I will mention another. I had discussions in Batavia with representatives of the British Press, some of them fine individuals, but I discovered that the Hearst Press of America had sent reporters to Batavia and told one of them emphatically that the report that came out must be anti-British. What kind of world do the Americans think that will build up—if the Hearst Press, and other diabolical newspapers, are allowed to twist the truth? It is time—I should like hon. Members to remember this—that the Pressmen of the world realised the responsibilities that rest on their shoulders in the 20th century. The opinion of hon. Members on these Benches, and perhaps more particularly on the Benches opposite, is often made by reading reports, and if Pressmen are going in for colourful reports what hope is there of the nations of the world getting down to dispassionate judgment about these difficult international problems?
  For what then are the Indonesians asking? It is this. They say that the term "Indonesia" was recognised before the war. Yet new bank notes still have the Netherlands East Indies impressed on them. Why have the Dutch removed the sign of the Indies from the back of these notes and impressed upon them cruisers, aeroplanes and soldiers? What is Indonesia being offered? Before the war the Council of the Indies was the only executive body that could legislate, and they only passed Bills to the Assembly for comment. That council was made up of the Governor-General, who was a Dutchman, the Lieut.-Governor-General, who was also Dutch, two Eurasians and two Indonesians. The People's Assembly, it is admitted, consisted of 55 per cent. Indonesians, but it had no voice in making the laws of the country. It was the Governor-General's Council of six that had the voice. On 5th-6th December the Indonesians asked van Mook what he was prepared to offer, and he made a statement which implied that the old Governor-General's Council would still have the opportunity to make the laws. I say that the Indonesians would no longer stand for that. They want a greater share in the determination of their own country.
  I was rather interested in some fumbling going on by some of our permanent officials. Whether we are a Labour
  1202
  Government or not, it is up to the Foreign Secretary to make the policy and it is the duty of our staffs in the Services to carry it out. My criticism of our own Government at the moment is that they are listening too much to the' policy spiked down by permanent officials without having the courage of their own convictions and moving forward in the spirit of the times and in the temper of the times that put us into power in this august Assembly. I want to make this point. In Singapore somebody ordered 2,000 pairs of shoes for the Malayans. What arrived from London or somewhere here? Two thousand pairs of jackboots with heels 1¾ inches thick, thick soles about an inch thick, while the boots were lined with velvet. Those were the footwear that the natives were to use in the tin mines and in the rubber plantations. I saw them myself. I want to know who is doing that. The Labour Government were discredited over it, and I am sure that none of our officials knew anything about it. Again our foreign policy can be influenced in such a fashion as this. When we entered Malaya we saw starvation and scarcity. We introduced feeding for the children in the schools, but it had not been going for a month when there was a signal from the War Office that all school feeding was to cease. That is not the way to get support for a Labour Government in Malaya. I saw coolies who were too weak to load ships. What I am pointing out is that we in the Labour movement have come to power, and we must have the courage of our convictions. We need not lean on anybody. We are here through our own strength and on our own ideas, and unless we keep to those then the Labour Government and indeed any British Government will lose face in the Far East.
  I would like to finish with this. Disease and starvation must be fought. British forces are cluttering up the Far East at the present moment. Disease is rampant, especially venereal disease, about which nobody seems to want to talk. People prefer to stick. their heads into the sand and take no notice. Surgical supplies are needed. Why cannot the War Office make the Forces in the Far East loosen up and give some of their surgical supplies to the hospitals and other places out there where they are needed? I went into a hospital in Singapore and in the dispensary there

  1203
  were thousands upon thousands of bottles with labels but no drugs. In the operating theatre there were rusty instruments which the Japanese had ruined. Yet the Army and other Forces in the Far East have the most modern apparatus at hand. Why is it that that cannot be given for civilian use to increase the prestige of the British and why, too, cannot we get a civil administration going? I should like to say, when we hear of strikes in the Far East, do not put them down to Russia and do not put them down to Communism. These people are hungry and they want food as well as a complete new idea about life. We want men and women in our Foreign Service, trained and armed with a fighting faith in a cause of justice and understanding, and I believe we must have a new type of recruitment to our Foreign Service—a type of person with personality who will get things done irrespective of whether he or she has a university degree or not. That is the type of people we want going into our Foreign Service. How better can I finish than to quote Wingate's Order of the Day when he was moving into Burma at a time when we expected an 18 months' campaign against the Japanese? What was Wingate's Order of the Day? It was:
  " Our aim is to make possible the Government of this world in which all men can live at peace and with the equal opportunity of sacrifice. Finally, knowing the vanity of man's effort and the confusion of his purpose, let us pray God that he may accept our services and direct our endeavours so that when we shall have done all, we shall sec the fruit of our labours and be satisfied."
  Because a Labour Government at this moment is in power, there is still faith in the Far East, and I say without fear or favour that had a Labour Government not been in power at the present moment the Far East would have been on fire from one end to the other. They believe in us. Let us see that because they believe in us they will not be betrayed.
  6.8 p.m.
  Mr. Anthony Nutting: I hope the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Davies) will not think me very academic if I draw the attention of the House back to the subject which was mentioned by my right hon.. Friend the Member for Bromley (Mr. Macmillan) in his magnificent opening speech. That subject is the United Nations organisation. When the last foreign affairs Debate took place, the
  1204
  outlook was pretty gloomy. The London Conference of Foreign Ministers had broken down, and the discussions of the deputies of the Foreign Ministers were at a standstill. Russian and American blocs were consolidating themselves in Eastern Europe and in the Far East. Generally there was a drift away from world cooperation amongst the three big Powers and consequently among the smaller nations.
  Now, I think that whatever state the world may be in today, we have a slight credit on the balance sheet. Some slight improvement has been made. The Conference of Foreign Secretaries of the three big Powers at Moscow and the United Nations Conference have both taken place. The Moscow Conference was perhaps rather obscured by the greater Conference of the United Nations, but nevertheless concrete if not very far-reaching improvements were obtained at Moscow. The two most important improvements were that the deputies of the Foreign Ministers were able to get under way again with their discussions on the peace treaties with Italy and with the satellite Powers, and that the burning question of control in the Far East was settled. I hope the right hon. Gentleman who is to wind up the Debate this evening will tell us about the progress which is being made in the discussions of the deputies on the question of the peace treaties. We have not had any information from the Government regarding that very important question. I will only say, in respect of this problem, that I hope it is the definite attitude of His Majesty's Government to proceed as speedily as possible not only with the peace treaties with the satellite countries, but also with the peace treaty with Italy. I echo the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley, that an early peace treaty with Italy would add immeasureably to the strength of the Italian Government at this moment. In that vital area a strong Government should be produced, and all possible strength should be added to the present Government.
  As regards the Far East, I am happy, that the Russians have been brought into the Allied Commission which is to sit in Washington. I have always felt that so long as General MacArthur was running the show in Japan, entirely by himself

  1205
  it was utterly and completely incongruous with the principle of United Nations' responsibility. Therefore, I am glad that a Commission has been set up, and I hope the powers it has been given in theory will, in fact, be exercised in practice. 1 hope Mr. Byrnes's explanation to the American people is not the correct explanation of what the Far Eastern Commission will do. I hope it does not leave General MacArthur's powers completely as they were before, and that instructions will be issued to him on important questions by the Commission, and will be carried out by him. A very slight step towards democratisation, and away from the bloc system, was taken at that same Moscow Conference by the appointment of two members of democratic parties to the Government of Rumania. I am sorry that the same has not been the case in Bulgaria. The Moscow Conference tended to move in the direction of a new co-operation in international administration. I think it is absolute nonsense to suggest, as some malicious newspapers in this country and America have suggested, that we lost, and America and Russia gained, at that Conference. I think international co-operation has gained, and that the recovery of the lost threads of agreement among the United Nations, particularly the big Three, paved the way for the United Nations' Conference in London.
  What of the United Nations itself? Generally speaking, it has done a good job in what it has had to tackle. Unfortunately, the work which it performed in the Assembly, and in Committees, was slightly obscured by the somewhat unreal discussions in the Security Council. But even in the Security Council, a good deal of air was cleared, and there was undoubtedly a healthy exchange of opinions between the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary and his Russian counterpart. However, there are obvious dangers and unsatisfactory aspects in regard to the present voting arrangements in the Security Council. I was glad to read, yesterday, that it is the intention to appoint a committee of experts to go into the question of the veto. I have always felt that this veto was too strong. For that Council to do its job properly the majority view, and the majority vote, must prevail. Of course, there must be a corollary to that—unanimity among the great Powers. If this unanimity exists,
  1206
  then there is no need for the veto. But to get unanimity there is one obvious essential, to which I would like to refer for a few moments. From my experience of foreign affairs, which is brief but which is, perhaps, intimate, I belive you cannot take too much trouble the agree a basis for discussion before the Conference take place. Anybody who has had anything to do with international congresses or conference will agree with that. Anybody who had to deal with the Versailles Conference, after the last war, will agree that one of the main reasons for its breakdown, for the haphazard nature of its resolutions and decisions, was the complete failure of the delegates to agree beforehand on a definite basis for discussion.
  Another danger in which the Security Council stands is that of procrastination. The tendency to refer ticklish disputes to direct negotiation between the parties to those disputes was marked in the American delegation, perhaps not unnaturally in view of the troubles which President Truman is going through in his own country. But for the United Nations to work, it is perhaps platitudinous to say that it must tackle all its problems and shirk none. In particular, it must tackle the economic problems which, at the moment, are perhaps worse and more threatening that the political. Fortified by its wisely adopted parenthood of U.N.R.R.A., it must see that wartime machinery, such institutions as the Combined Boards, is expanded to deal with the infinitely greater economic problem of the peace. It must concentrate on the essential task of dealing with hunger, disease, unemployment, and agriculture in devastated countries.
  What of the world at large? Apart from economic problems, there are still obvious and dangerous trouble centres in the world. There are political troubles. The Persian situation is very threatening. I fear that the present Persian Government may not prove strong enough in their negotiation with the time comes, on 2nd March, for the with drawl of their troops, may find a little clause in a rather ancient treaty which will give give them the

  1207
  opportunity, together with the general state of unrest in Persia, to remain in that country. I hope it will not be so, but I rather fear that it may be. I should be grateful if the Minister of State will tell us, later, whether the Government have anticipated that eventuality, and what steps they intend to take to deal with it. Indeed the whole of the Middle East may boil over at any moment. There is pressure in Egypt for a revision of the Treaty, and such revision must obviously come, even if it is only of a token nature. I say "token," because when the question of the Italian colonies comes to be settled the strategical importance of Egypt and the maintenance of troops there is very much greater than ever before. I therefore hope that the Minister will tell us something about Government policy in regard to the Egyptian Treaty.
  Then there is Indonesia. The Dutch proposals appear to me to be sensible and moderate, and I hope, indeed, I expect, that Dr. Sjahrir will accept them, although I fear that the extremists may not.. Therefore it is possible that the agreement may have to be enforced. This will require a reinforcement of troops, and I hope that the burden of reinforcing the troops and enforcing the agreement will not fall on this country. I hope it will fall squarely on the shoulders of the Dutch, who are responsible for that area. Then there is Greece, which is little nearer a solution of her turbulent situation, and Italy, which is still racked by the economic bankruptcy and political intrigue and irresponsibility with which she has been tortured ever since her liberation. Germany, as the right hon. Gentleman who opened this Debate made plain, is being administered as two, and in some cases even as three, countries in spite of the Potsdam Agreement, while Eastern Europe remains largely shut off from the outside world and only very slowly and tentatively progresses towards democratic rebirth.
  Indeed it is only too easy to be pessimistic when one looks at the world today, and it is only too easy to be, what is much more dangerous, cynical about the present situation. It is easy to say that we heard all this talk about U.N.O. in a. different context after the last war, and that we shall never get the nations to agree. Cynicism of this kind at this
  1208
  moment is, in my humble view, as dangerous as was the over enthusiasm and blind faith in the League which existed.after the last war. Both cynicism and pessimism are utterly wrong and defeatist. As the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary said at the opening of the United Nations organisation, we must not expect miracles; the United Nations cannot solve all the problems in a day or even in a decade. It can only work by the united efforts of its members and by the subordination of national policies of all its members to the interests and purposes for which it was set up.
  The first conference of the United Nations has been successful. The nations have learned a good lesson in how to work together. They have developed, as "The limes" put it the other day, "a corporate sense." The organisation is blessed with the power which the League lacked—the co-operation of America and of Russia. The principle of responsibility and unanimity among the great powers is firmly established. A fair beginning has been made, and we, I think, have given a lead through the efforts of the right hon. Gentleman, the Foreign Secretary, of which we may well be proud. We have played our part in getting the organisation on to its feet. We must continue to give it that combination of idealism and realism which it needs, and work for its success in a spirit of sober confidence and high endeavour.
  6.25 p.m.
  Mr. Driberg: I am extremely glad that this Debate has taken a turn to the Far East, both in the very vigorously eloquent speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) and also, in passing, in the thoughtful speech of the hon. Member for Melton (Mr. Nutting). In my view the Far East is, although it is insufficiently discussed in this House, as in this country is, one of the two crucial problems in international affairs today, the other being, of course, the subject which has pre-occupied most hon. Members, Anglo-Soviet relations. It is of quite desperate importance, this continent of Asia, this region of the world where, as. has been so well said, the French and the Russian Revolutions have arrived hand in hand, and I propose to devote most of my few remarks to that subject.

  1209
  Before doing so, I should like to accept and endorse my hon. Friend's solemn remonstrance to Pressmen. As a journalist, I should like to say that I entirely share his view that we should report responsibly and accurately such events as have been occurring in Indonesia—though I think, as a matter of fact, that the remonstrance should be forwarded not so much to the Pressmen themselves as to newspaper proprietors, especially those millionaire proprietors, such as Mr. William Randolph Hearst who debase the whole profession of journalism.
  Let me also deal parenthetically with one or two points made in the speeches of other hon. Members. I do not suppose that my right hon. Friend when he comes to reply, will find it necessary to deal at any great length with the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Totnes (Brigadier Rayner), and the hon. and gallant Member will excuse us on this side of the House from attempting to deal in any detail with his somewhat discursive though interesting essay in ethnography and terminology, and his reminiscences of what must have been a singularly happy mess Much as we like having him with us here, the hon. and gallant Member ought really, at this moment, to be in Ottawa, helping the gallant "Mounties" in those extraordinary proceedings in that place where the spirit of the late Lord Tweedsmuir and "The Thirty-Nine Steps," seems to be lingering. According to his rather murky lights, however, the hon. and gallant Member did deal at some length with this first most crucial problem—Anglo-Soviet relationships—and I thought that the most interesting passage of the speech with which the right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) opened the Debate was his analysis of the attitude of Russia as being a desire not for expansion so much as for security
  I do not want to deal at length with this particular subject, but there is just one point which has not, I think, been made and which is of extreme importance. Some little time ago some of us used to think and speak of Britain and the British Empire as being the great middle power between the extreme individualism of America and the extreme collectivism of Soviet Russia. Imperceptibly, but suddenly, those relative positions are completely reversed, so that that responsible journalist, Walter Lippmann,
  1210
  was able to say on 13th February in his column in the "New York Herald Tribune" when writing about the difficulties and the deterioration of relationships between Britain and the U.S.S.R.: "That is where the United States will have to come into it…. as the mediator who can restore negotiations within the Big Three." In my view, at this moment the Americans are getting on much better with the Russians than we are, and that is, possibly, in some respects a disquieting factor.
  Turning to my main theme, I would like to say that the main political fact. in the world today is hunger, and that when we in this country grumble, as we are entitled to, about certain difficulties and inconveniences—about dried eggs, or whatever it may be—it is very difficult for those of us who have fairly recently been to the East not to see, in our imagination, the gaunt and despairing faces of the literally millions of our fellow human beings and fellow citizens of the British Empire who are going to die of starvation this year.
  I really feel that in this country we must try to get this matter in proportion. It is estimated by reliable and responsible people that in India alone 6,000,000 persons will die this year of starvation, and the Minister of Food admitted quite clearly in the Debate last week that we shall be totally unable to meet their urgent requirements—to provide what Lord Wavell has asked for India. That is a terrible situation, and the same prevails to a greater or less degree throughout the rice-consuming countries of the Far East, such as Burma and Malaya. In Malaya our stock of good will, I am afraid, has deteriorated considerably since the moment of liberation last summer, when we were received with tremendous good will by the Malayan people. It has deteriorated for a number of different reasons, but chief among them is this business of hunger, and the fact that Malaya is overcrowded with Dutch and Eurasian refugees from Indonesia, whom the Malayans see coming in and being given rations and so on, all helps to exacerbate the situation in Malaya and links it directly to this controversial subject of Indonesia.
  I think that the Foreign Secretary, above all previous Foreign Secretaries, perhaps, is well aware of this particular

  1211
  problem. He always puts the feeding of all people everywhere, and their standard of living, well in the forefront of his foreign policy. Also, he does not adopt towards the Far East, 1 am glad to say, that terribly negative, nescient attitude which one finds all too often among people in this country, and which reminds one so disquietingly of Mr. Chamberlain's famous phrase in his broadcast about Czechoslovakia—" a distant country of which we know nothing."
  On this question of Indonesia I was extremely glad to hear what my hon. Friend the Member for Leek said, and, to learn that, from his own eye-witness observations, he was able to confirm absolutely what some of us in this House have been saying about the Indonesian situation for some months past. For the benefit of my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, I would like to say also that my lion. Friend the Member for Leek has read the Debate, which he will remember we had on nth December, and tells me that from his observation and talks with Dr. Sjahrir, General Christison, Admiral Mountbatten and everybody on the spot, including the Dutch, he agrees with every word that I ventured to say in that Debate.
  At the recent United Nations Assembly this matter of Indonesia was raised in what may have seemed a rather clumsy and exaggerated way by the Ukrainian delegation. I think it is only fair to them to point out that they were obliged by the terms of the Charter to use the phrases they did use. It was a technicality. It was necessary to refer to the "endangering of peace," or whatever the particular phrase was which seemed to us somewhat exaggerated. None the less, I am glad that it was raised there, and I am rather sorry that we did not go further in seizing that opportunity of really putting ourselves right, with everybody by handing over the whole responsibility for the Indonesian situation clearly to the United Nations. It is true that negotiations are at present going on which, like the hon. Member opposite, I hope most sincerely will be successful. Some of us had the privilege of meeting Dr. Van Mook when he was in London immediately after the Chequers conversations. I must say that I personally formed a high opinion of his
  1212
  ability and moderation and integrity. We know that he had great difficulties at The Hague We have heard testimony this evening to the moderation and intelligence of Dr. Sjahrir, who may not be able to control all the extremists, it is true, but who does, I am quite convinced, carry with him the opinion and the sentiment of the overwhelming majority of the various peoples of Indonesia: indeed, so we were assured by Dr. Van Mook himself—and.it would be hard to have a more impartial opinion on that point. Furthermore, we have in Indonesia at present, very fortunately, Sir Archibald Clark Kerr—than whom, if I may be momentarily disorderly, Mr. Speaker, there is no mere admirable Ambassador.
  The only point at which I part company with the hon. Member opposite is when he thinks that the Dutch proposals, so far as they are known to us,, are completely adequate. It may be that Dr. Sjahrir will accept them. I sincerely hope he will; but, if he does not accept them or if he cannot put them across his own people, what happens then? Do we embark on a semi-permanent commitment in Indonesia? The only way the terms can then be imposed is by force, and the hon. Member for Melton suggested, quite rightly I think, that we do not want to have the onus of that. He added that it should be left to the Dutch alone. There are great dangers about that course. I think that the Dutch, if they attempt to reimpose their regime by force on Indonesia, will be committed to a very long and bloody war. They have shown already that they are not really capable of handling this situation, and the peoples of Indonesia in their present stage of development and nationalist excitement, with reasonableness and with calm. The Dutch have alternately shown hysteria and intransigeance and I think that it is only going to cause infinitely more bloodshed, and that it will take much longer to get a peaceful solution, if we leave it entirely to the Dutch. On the other hand, there is this dilemma, that we want to get our own troops away as quickly as possible. That seems to me to build up into an overwhelming argument for really placing the whole of this problem in the hands of the United Nations—that is, if these present negotiations break down; we all hope, of course, that there will be a peaceful solution as a result of them.
  Mr. Nutting: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will not mind my interrupting, since he was referring to my speech. Before leaving that point would he say whether he does not think there would be. Sufficient numbers in the Indonesian Army, say 50 per cent., who would follow Dr. Sjahrir and endorse the agreement and, therefore, be able to co-operate with the Dutch troops in enforcing it on the country?
  Mr. Driberg: That is a very speculative point. The fact is, fortunately or unfortunately, that the Dutch are extremely unpopular in Indonesia at the moment. The hon. Member must remember that. Whereas the Indonesians, on the whole, like our troops, most of whom have behaved most admirably, they most definitely do not like the Dutch troops, and I think it would be very difficult for Dr. Sjahrir to persuade any substantial portion of his armed followers to co-operate with Dutch troops in reimposing a Dutch régime. I really do not think that would be very likely to happen.
  I would like to refer again in passing to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Leek, that some of the Press reports from Indonesia have not been entirely responsible In particular, I have learned from officers who have recently returned that some of the stories which have been told, not only in the newspapers, but, I am sorry to say, from the Government Front Bench in this House, have been very far from accurate and have unnecessarily imported prejudice and blackened the character of the Indonesians. One story in particular concerns the lamented death of Brigadier Mallaby. That was announced to us as a foul murder, and we accepted it as such. I have learned from officers who were present when it happened the exact details and it is perfectly clear that Brigadier Mallaby was not murdered but was honourably killed in action.
  There is obviously all the difference in the world between the two things. I am perfectly prepared, for the sake of my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, to go into details, but I do not want to lengthen my speech unduly, and I can give them to him privately afterwards if he wishes. I am satisfied that Brigadier Mallaby was not murdered but honourably killed in action.
  Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: I would be much obliged if the hon. Member would go into details. Brigadier Mallaby had gone to negotiate a truce and "killed in action" implies that there was aggression on one side. It was not aggression on our side as he was negotiating a truce. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]
  Mr. Driberg: If hon. Members will wait they will hear the actual details. It was like this. The incident was somewhat confused—as such incidents are—but it took place in and near Union Square in Surabaya. There had been discussions about a truce earlier in the day. A large crowd of Indonesians—a mob, if you like—had gathered in the square and were in a rather excited state. About 20 Indians, in a building on the other side of the square, had been cut off from telephonic communication and did not know about the truce. They were firing sporadically on the mob. Brigadier Mallaby came out from the discussions, walked straight into the crowd, with great courage, and shouted to the Indians to cease fire. They obeyed him. Possibly half an hour later the mob in the square became turbulent again. Brigadier Mallaby, at a certain point in the proceedings, ordered the Indians to open fire again. They opened fire with two Bren guns, and the mob dispersed and went to cover; then fighting broke out again in good earnest. It is apparent that when Brigadier Mallaby gave the order to open fire again, the truce was in fact broken, at any rate locally. Twenty minutes to half an hour after that, he was, most unfortunately, killed in his car—although even now it is not absolutely certain whether he was killed by Indonesians or by a grenade thrown by an Indian officer at some Indonesians who were approaching his car, which exploded simultaneously with the attack on him. Those are the actual facts of Brigadier Mallaby's death. I am sorry to have inflicted them on the House at such length, but my right hon. Friend did ask me to do so, and I do not think "that they amount to a charge of foul murder against people in an extremely delicate situation in which we do not want to use language likely to exacerbate it.
  Mr. Eden: I do not want to interrupt, but this is a grave matter. This very gallant officer

  1215
  was well known to many hon. Members of the House for his services rendered during the war. Presumably, the Government must have a report of the incident and, in view of what the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) has said, I hope the Government will take steps to make the report public.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I feel sure my right hon. Friend will be prepared to do that. Whether I can do it tonight is another matter, but my right hon. Friend will reply to many points tomorrow.
  Mr. Driberg: I shall welcome that, because my information came absolutely at first-hand from a British officer who was actually on the spot at the moment, whose bona fides I have no reason to question. I have known him for some time.
  As I have gone on unduly long, I shall have to skip most of the rest of what I wanted to say, but I would like to end by saying that I hope that the problems of South-East Asia are going to be dealt with as a whole. There is a good precedent for that in a document to which I invite the attention of the House—the agreement between Australia and New Zealand at the beginning of 1944 and, in particular, the two paragraphs at the top of page 7 of that agreement, with which I will not weary the House now. It is essential that the problems of all these countries, Burma, Indonesia, French Indo-China— where we have largely got our Forces out after, I am afraid, practically re imposing the status quo of French imperialism— should be dealt with in this way, and Australia and New Zealand should obviously be brought into discussion. It is a good sign that the appointment was announced yesterday of a special emissary to advise the Government on foreign affairs as regards South-East Asia. This is a sign that the problem is going to be handled urgently as a whole. I hope South-East Asia will become not an American, nor a Russian, nor a British sphere of influence, but a United Nations sphere of influence. I am sorry I cannot extend the same approval to the choice of the first holder of this very important, post. In view of your Ruling this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, I will not comment on this appointment other than to call attention to the comment in yesterday's "News Chronicle" by the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Vernon Bartlett),
  1216
  who can hardly be described as an extreme partisan of the Left, and to say that the only people who will be pleased with the appointment are the Japanese, and, of course, the Egyptians.
  This matter of overseas appointments, about which we have heard a certain amount recently, needs tackling urgently. Long-term reforms are very well in their way, but they do not deal with the immediate position in Asia, or anywhere else, and whilst the long-term reforms are maturing we may all be atomised to pieces. On this point, the Government remind me of a theatrical producer who has learned that bedroom farces are no longer fashionable, and that the public will take Shakespeare now. He puts on a season of Shakespeare—and then goes and casts Tom Walls as Hamlet, and Nellie Wallace—bless her!—as Lady Macbeth. We really must have new men and new methods in foreign policy in the Far East and elsewhere, not merely to tell the world, but to show the world, that we have a Socialist Government in Britain.
  6.48 p.m.
  Major Hugh Fraser: It is a great pleasure to me that the hon. Members for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) and Leek (Mr. H. Davies) raised the question of Indonesia. I think they underestimated what the present Government are doing and what British troops are doing in that area. The hon. Member for Leek said that the discussion here tonight was academic, and that the problem in the Far East was being disregarded and replaced by academic arguments on foreign policy. The whole question of food, as is concerns 60,000,000 people in Java and other territories in the East Indies, is affected vitally by the new set-up in the Dutch East. Indies and that depends enormously on what policy is pursued by His Majesty's Government today. It is not an academic matter at all. It is not a matter which calls for new men and new methods. The Government have laid down what their responsibilities are in Indonesia, and it is on those responsibilities that the House may ask for some assurance and confirmation. The responsibilities which the country undertook were two. The first was the capture and eventual deportation of some 80,000 Japanese, and the second was the liberation of a large number of Dutch persons, held by the Indonesian army in the centre

  1217
  of Java. But there is a third matter that arises, and that is the holding of the ring between the Dutch negotiators and the Indonesians. To say that the Indonesian army is not of importance, to say that it is merely a matter of argument in Surabaya or Batavia between Mr. van Mook and the Indonesian representatives, is not in the least true. It is a question of negotiations being carried on with an insurgent force, the so-called "Indonesian Republic," which is backed by a considerable force of arms. For that reason, we have been forced into the situation of having to hold the ring inside Indonesia between two forces which are opposed to each other. I think we may ask the Government seriously what their future intentions are concerning the full acceptance of that situation, since the restoration of order in Java is of vital importance to the feeding of some 60,000,000 or 80,000,000 people in that area.
  It is not only a question of the extremely complicated irrigation system created by the Dutch, but of the supply of fertilisers for the dry paddy fields. Unless these and other matters affecting the extremely over-populated area at the centre are looked after, there will be starvation throughout Java. The restoration of order is essential, and that restoration will, and must, depend upon what decisions can be reached between Mr. van Mook and Mr. Sjahrir. I think it would be as well to remember that all that has been said about Dutch oil, Royal Dutch, and so forth, and Dutch imperialist interests, is not entirely true. The movement towards democracy in Indonesia and the Dutch East Indies has been of extremely rapid growth. Since 1904, in 1917, 1925, 1928, 1938, and 1942—less than half a century—there has been a tremendous advance, unparalleled in the political advancement of a people anywhere, and at the same time a tremendous expansion of the wealth and prosperity of Indonesia. Let not that be forgotten. It is not a question of the Dutch maintaining a stranglehold on the Indians. They have not done so. I believe that in Indonesia there is to be found some of the finest development by a Colonial Power that has been seen in the whole world.
  To put the other case, the case for Soekarno and Sjahrir, I think the House must distinguish distinctly between those
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  two men. Hon. Members must distinguish most clearly between Soekarno, the President of the so-called "Indonesian Republic," the puppet of Japan, who received the Order of the Golden Treasure—second class—from the hands of the Emperor himself, and Sjahrir. That is an important point which was not sufficiently stressed by the hon. Member for Leek, who did not make a distinction between those people who believe in the power and excellence of Soekarno and those who support Sjahrir. Soekarno is not present at the conferences. He is President of the so-called Republic; he is in the interior. These negotiations are being carried on with Sjahrir. Whether the negotiations succeed or fail—as succeed, pray God, they will—there is certain to be a period of extreme difficulty, which will go on for several years, during which somebody must assume responsibility for order, responsibility for carrying on the normal civil services, which are not being carried on at the moment, and responsibility for the irrigation schemes. The point is that the Dutch will not be able to put troops in the field in sufficient numbers for at least another 18 months. That is why the problem will arise in a critical and acute form as to who will see that the agreement, when it has been reached between the Moderates and van Mook, is carried out. Therefore, I ask the Government for a statement as to what they regard as being the precise limit of their commitment in that most unfortunate and unhappy land of the Dutch East Indies.
  6.57 p.m.
  Mr. Gallacher: There has been much discussion outside and some discussion in this Chamber, together with some criticism, of the work of the United Nations. I think the United Nations have done a good job. They have made a start at laying the foundations of an organisation that can protect world peace. There have been differences, and unfortunately those differences have been between the Labour Government and the Socialist Government of the Soviet Unions, the two Governments that should have the most in common. There has been much talk in the Press and in the House explaining the causes of these differences. The right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. Harold Macmillan) made a speech which can be boiled down to the simple thesis—I should be prepared to go

  1219
  over it with anyone tomorrow—that anything that is done by Britain is honourable beyond question, and anything that is done by the Soviet Union is mysterious, suspicious and subject to very considerable question.
  We will leave these fictions aside and we will discuss one or two facts. The first fact, which I put to the right hon. Gentleman who is to reply, is that foreign policy must harmonise with home policy, or the Government will be wrecked. Some of this discussion to which I have referred has gone into the workshops and the Forces. I have here a letter, one of the very many I have received from men serving in other parts of the world, in which the writer says that, "in the first place, there was the speech that was made by the Government spokesman, Lord Jowitt, on 6th November in the House of Lords, when he said that the world situation and not the transport position was the deciding factor in demobilisation." That has been discussed not only in the workshops, but among the Forces everywhere—foreign policy and its relation with demobilisation. Foreign policy is discussed also in relation to many other questions that affect the workers and the lads in the Forces. Last week the Foreign Secretary, speaking in this House, received the most vehement hostility from the Tory Benches. What was he speaking for? He was speaking for the organised working-class movement of this country. But we know that on occasion the Foreign Secretary has spoken in the House and received tumultuous cheers from the Tory benches. What was he speaking for then? Hon. Members have told us today that he was speaking for Britain. But the hon. Member forgot that there are two Britains. Even Disraeli recognised that. There are the Britain of the Tory Party and the Britain of the people. The Tory Party has a foreign policy which harmonises with its home policy. What is its home policy? Democracy that maintains the landlords and capitalists at the expense of the masses of the people.
  I ask the Minister this question. Maybe he will consider it, maybe he will answer. If the Tories have to choose between democracy without landlords and capitalists, or landlords and capitalists without democracy, which will they
  1220
  choose? The right hon. Gentleman may say that that is a hypothetical question, but it is not. It is a question which is being presented in country after country at the present time. Take Poland. We have heard quite a lot of talk about Poland. There the new progressive forces and the Government that represent them have dispensed with the semi-feudal landlords, and the big estates have been divided among the peasants. They are nationalising the industries. The Tories are very concerned about Poland. What is their concern? Democracy. They are so anxious about democracy. Day after day there are questions about democracy, but let any one raise in this Chamber a question about Franco Spain, Portugal or Argentina, and the Tories do not want any interference with the internal affairs of another country. [Laughter.] It is a great subject for the levity of the right hon. Gentleman, who has recently returned to the House, but he should not forget that his master, when he was Prime Minister, signed an agreement at Yalta and prepared the way for the signing of another agreement by the present Prime Minister at Potsdam pledging this House and the country to destroy Fascism wherever it was found. When do they intend to get busy on Spain, Portugal and Argentina? Let us have less of Poland and more of democracy in Spain and Portugal.
  In the Balkan countries the landlords have been dispensed with, and the big estates divided among the peasants. If the liberation forces had been given the opportunity the same thing would apply in Greece, but our Forces there were used against them. I listened to the right hon. Member for Bromley explaining what happened in Greece, but he did not state that the then Prime Minister of Greece had given a permit for a mass demonstration on the Sunday, and late on Saturday night, near midnight, at the incitement of the Ambassador, he forbade the demonstration, when there was no time to call it off. When the demonstration took place, the fighting started, and tanks, guns, bombing planes were used by Britain to break up and destroy, if possible, the progressive forces in Greece. Whatever the intentions, the effects are there. The one country in that part of the world that still has the landlords claiming the land, and where the masses of the people are left without, is Greece.

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  Here we have a situation in which the workers of this country are paying, in taxation, to help to maintain the landowners in Greece, while they are paying a political levy to get rid of the landowners here. That is not Labour policy, that is Tory policy.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Is the hon. Member aware that the land in Greece was distributed by. Mr. Venizelos to the peasants 25 years ago, and the landowners were left with 160 acres?
  Mr. Gallacher: The landowners are there in Greece, and own the greater part of the land there. I do not want to become personal, but the landowners are not only there but here. No one can dispute that the assets there are still in the possession of those who exploit and rob the peasant of the fruits of his labour. If the progressive forces had been left alone the Royalists would have gone, in a big hurry too. But the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) said at the time that our Forces were there to prevent a massacre. Our Forces used tanks, guns and bombing planes to massacre.the progressive forces. If workers are killed it is not a massacre; it is only.when there is a danger of some Royalists being killed that there is talk of a massacre. No Tory can point out to me a case in history where a massacre of peasants or workers has taken place which was called a massacre by the other side of the House. If the progressive forces had been left alone, Greece would have been in line with the other progressive countries.
  I wish to say a word or two about Indonesia. Our troops are there, and they would be much better back home. If they had not been there the Dutch would not have lasted there any length of time. They would have had to get out of Indonesia, and the Indonesian people would have had their independence. The Foreign Secretary, speaking at U.N.O., said that our troops had never been used against the Indonesian Nationalists. I have hear4 an hon. Member say that in a private conversation, he was told that the British had taken no offensive action towards them, and had only acted defensively.
  But no one can persuade me that the wiping out by bombing planes of a village, whether it be in Indonesia or
  1222
  Czechoslovakia, is. defensive action. What have our troops been used against if not against the Indonesian Nationalists? We are told, if we are told anything, that it is not against the Indonesian Nationalists but against the extremists. That is an old story, but it is an old Tory story. Last week in this House Tory after Tory got up and said that the Trade Disputes Act was not passed against the honest bona fide, trade unionist; it was to defend and protect the honest trade unionist from the extremists. But the important thing is that if it were not for our troops being there, the Dutch oil imperialists would have had to get out.
  Mention was made by the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) about the question that was raised in U.N.O. about the danger to peace. If the Dutch imperialists are left in Indonesia there will be a very serious danger to the peace of the world. If any exception is taken to that, take the statement made by the Noble Lord yesterday, when he drew attention to the fact that this Commission of three /had to go to India, because the situation in India was endangering the peace of the world. That is where we are in India—endangering the peace of the world.
  Surely if our presence in India, and the situation that has developed out of it, is endangering the peace of the world, the presence of the Dutch in Indonesia will also be a menace to the peace of the world, to the whole of Asia, because as has been said before the Asiatic peoples are determined to get their independence and play their part with other nations in world progress. The Dutch are in Indonesia. What for? In the interests of the Indonesians? No. In the interests of Indonesia itself? No—they are there to get all the money and profit they can out of the poverty of the Indonesian people. That is what they are there for. The Minister said that our troops are not being used against the Indonesian Nationalists. Is the Minister prepared to go to that Box and say that our troops there are assisting the Indonesians to get their independence, to get rid of those who have been exploiting them for generations? That is what the workers are paying the political levy for—to get emancipation for themselves and to assist the workers elsewhere to get emancipation.

  1223
  Do not let us have any more of this talk about conspiracies against Britain. When the Boer war was being fought, the Young Labour movement of this country, and in every country, supported the Boers against the British imperialists. Was it a conspiracy against Britain? No, it was the natural response of men who were struggling against exploitation to support a small nation fighting for its independence. During the last war part of the Labour movement supported the war and the Government, while another section of the Labour movement opposed the war as an imperialist war. The Foreign Secretary was with the section opposing the war. He, like myself, was a spokesman at the Leeds conference of the soldiers' and workers' delegates pledging our full support to the young Soviet State that was growing up in Russia and which has played such a part in leading the masses forward. Was that a conspiracy against Britain?
  General Sir George Jeffreys: Yes.
  Mr. Gallacher: No. It was the natural response of the workers, who were anxious to assist their fellow workers and to get in line with the progress that was being made.
  Mr. Brendan Bracken: Was that also the natural reason why, at the beginning of the war, the hon. Gentleman could not work with the Foreign Secretary in standing up for his country?
  Mr. Gallacher: I am not going to be led away by a distraction of that kind. I have done with that. I was here in theHouse all the time, and I was prepared at any time, whenever any question was raised, to face the Tories on the policy they were pursuing at the beginning of the war. I was prepared to support the war against Fascism, but when the right hon. Gentleman's Friends started trying to get Fascist Italy in on the side of Britain— [Interruption,] It is a fact. Read the publication of the late Lord Lloyd, with an introduction by the then Foreign Secretary, Lord Halifax. It was published in pamphlet form and called "Britain's Case." In it, the highest possible tribute was paid to Mussolini and his Fascists, to Franco and the Fascists of Spain, and a declaration was made to
  1224
  America that we were not fighting against the Fascists but were carrying on quite a different sort of fight. Let hon. Members read that.
  Mr. Bracken: We might also consider the tribute paid to Herr von Ribbentrop by certain eminent gentlemen from Leeds.
  Mr. Gallacher: They were on the right hon. Gentleman's side—on the Tory side—the people who had Ribbentrop over here. Do not forget that in this House the Tory Party appealed to the then Speaker and got him to reprimand me for being offensive about Mr. Ribbentrop.
  In Indonesia the conditions are simply appalling. Last week I received a letter from six staff sergeants. It was addressed to the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and a number of Members of Parliament. The story they tell is almost unbelievable, that our soldiers should be encouraging in any way a situation producing such appalling and fearsome conditions! These staff sergeants, who signed their names, make a demand to the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary that our troops should be taken out of Indonesia, and that the Dutch should be taken out too, so that the Indonesians can have the opportunity of building up their own independent government.
  There were several other points 1 wanted to make, but I promised not to be too long, and I never like to go back on my word. But I want to put one or two questions to the Foreign Secretary, through the Under-Secretary. First, does he recognise the community of interest between the people of Britain, the Labour Government and the new progressive forces in Europe? Second, does he agree that while the military defeat of Fascism has been achieved, its political and moral defeat is still to be accomplished? Third, does he agree that our foreign policy has got to be directed towards breaking the power of the former economic and political backers of Fascism?
  If he does agree to those propositions— the propositions of Yalta and of Potsdam—there can be no fundamental differences between our foreign policy and that of the Soviet Union. I would say that the Foreign Secretary has to harmonise his

  1225
  foreign policy with his home policy. There has got to be a clean-up in the Foreign Office, and in the ambassadorial staffs. Let him publish a list of the higher officials in the Foreign Office, and of the ambassadorial staffs, and give us their social background. We shall then see the character of the.people who represent us in every part of the world. The right hon. Gentleman has to get a working-class policy, a policy which represents the progressive people of this country, and which will fit in with the progressive desires of the movements now going on in the various countries of Europe
  7.18 p.m.
  Mr. Maclay: The hon. Member for West Fife (Mr.Gallacher) has left dangling some of the most tempting pieces of bait I have seen for a long time, but I am afraid I must resist them and stick to the points which I am very anxious to stress this evening in my own speech
  I would like for a short time to refer to the beginning of this Debate, and say a few words about the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan). I feel that it was a most interesting and at times exceedingly moving speech. Generally speaking, I think that what he said had the agreement of this House. I personally agreed entirely with everything he said about the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Minister. He gave him great praise for the work he has done recently and with that I could not more cordially agree. But I hope I may not be thought grudging if I say that I believe that the Foreign Minister, in fact, the British Government, have to go much further than they have done during recent weeks. These recent weeks must surely have shown that it is not enough to say that the whole basis of our foreign policy is the United Nations organisation. That is admirable, but does it really mean very much? Does it mean any more than that we want peace and prosperity for all? It is admirable, but is it very constructive? The world must know, I submit, what we are prepared to put into the common pool, what is our strength, and whether we intend to preserve it, build it up where necessary, so that we can give of our best for the common good. The world must know how far we intend to allow other nations to go before we call
  1226
  a halt, particularly if the motives of those other nations are obscure.
  That there is doubt, at least in the minds of certain nations, as to British intentions must now be obvious to everyone. I would like to quote from tin article which comes from a very surprising source. In a most interesting leader written, I imagine, by the editor of the paper, one finds:
  " One reason, we believe, which is inducing the Soviet Government to act as they do is their conviction that Britain has ceased to be a Great Power, that the British Empire is disintegrating and that this country is slowly but surely entering a period of decay. From a Tory Government which, by its nature, is egotistically nationalistic and ruthlessly imperialist they might have expected a determined fight for Britain's position in the world, and therefore respected, if not liked it. In contrast, they expect a Labour Government, which they regard as inherently weak and tending to make the worst of all possible worlds, to be unable to prevent such decay and even to hasten it. And they go over to the attack very largely because of this suspected weakness, while being careful and accommodating with the respected power and strength of the United States."
  I make no comment on the part in the middle about the Tory Government because I do not want to make a controversial speech this afternoon. That paragraph is taken from the leader in the "Tribune," which paper, I understand, is produced under the most admirable Socialist auspices. I hope hon. Members opposite will read the whole of the leader. It is a most constructive and very interesting one. It is not, however, only the Soviet Government that is wondering whether Britain has ceased to be a Great Power and whether the British Empire is on the point of disintegration. Many other nations in the world have doubts and fears. I say fears because to the greater part of the world the existence of the British Commonwealth and Empire represents stability, respect for the rule of law in national and international affairs. For all its defects I do submit that no nearer approach to the world State of our dreams yet exists.
  Can the world be blamed for wondering what is to be the fate of the British Empire under the present Government? The Foreign Minister's recent performance must have given great encouragement but Socialist speeches, Socialist books for years past are remembered. Questions and interjections from the back benches opposite at Question Time

  1227
  receive publicity. Can hon. Members opposite deny that over a period of years Socialists in Britain have given the impression of being utterly ashamed of the Empire, if not actively hostile to it? Can other nations be blamed for wondering whether the Foreign Minister speaks for his Party or only for a section of it, for wondering whether under Socialist Government Britain intends to allow her Empire to disintegrate? There could be no greater tragedy for the future of world peace than that that should happen. I do urge hon. Members opposite both in this House and out of it, no matter what they feel about defects in its structure, to make it clear they believe in the British Empire and the British Commonwealth of Nations and the principles for which it stands. It has been said to me by numerous foreigners of several nations that what worries them most about this Government and about the Socialists of Britain is what they intend to do with the Empire. Are they just going to let it go or what is their constructive policy?
  I would like to illustrate the point I am going to make about the Empire and the Commonwealth from my own recent personal experience. During the war, I was privileged to serve for two years under the right hon. Gentleman the Senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) when he was the British member of the Combined ' Shipping Adjustment Board in Washington. Subsequently, I succeeded him in that position for about a year. Acting, of course, under the instructions of the Cabinet and the Minister of War Transport, our principal duty was the co-ordination with the United States of the United Nations' merchant fleets so that the most effective use might be made of every possible ship in furtherance of the war effort in every corner of the globe. Our work involved daily, if not hourly, consultation and negotiation with our United States colleagues. It entailed continuous contact with Dominion and Colonial representatives in Washington and a fairly close contact with representatives of the maritime United Nations. I realise that this experience was in a limited field, but not so very limited as the decisions reached affected only military operations but the daily rations, war production, and a considerable part of the economic life of a good many nations. I venture, therefore, to
  1228
  draw on that experience for a few minutes.
  Early on we learned a most essential lesson. That was that the full concurrence and agreement of the Dominions, both on general principles and in detail, were essential if we were to get agreement with our American colleagues. For a short time we did not have that agreement and the American shipping authorities "were at times faced with conflicting arguments and claims. Everyone quickly realised how much more difficult this made our problem. We had to tackle it and we did not find any difficulty in reaching a common basis of agreement with our Dominion representatives on these very difficult subjects, provided there was ample exchange of information and prior consultation. I urge the Parliamentary Secretary to listen carefully to what I am saying on this subject because I think it is of the most vital importance, and I hope he will convey it not only to the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Minister but to other Cabinet Ministers. What the Dominions will not stand is action by the United Kingdom which affects their interests if it is taken without prior information and consultation.
  Agreement with the Dominions once achieved was welcomed by our American friends. I do not think I am in any way exaggerating when I say that once the Commonwealth and the United States were in agreement the other nations involved welcomed the clarity of the lead that was given. When war conditions gave way to the transition from war to peace the maritime United Nations gave a magnificent lead in the field of shipping by the formation of the United Maritime administration which, while recognising the rights and privileges of the nations concerned, nevertheless, preserved order in a highly competitive international industry and made certain the continued availability of the world's shipping for the essential tasks of demobilisation and reconstruction. The United Maritime Administration has had its last meeting but, according to the recent official Press release, it has been able to submit agreed decisions to its component Governments and I think that shipping will be kept under a reasonable co-ordination during the next eight months until these still urgent tasks are completed.
  My reason for mentioning all this is that there can be no doubt that the success

  1229
  of the Allied handling of ships during the war and the success of the United Maritime Administration has been based, first of all, on agreement between the Dominions and the United Kingdom and, secondly, on Commonwealth agreement with the United States. If the United Nations Organisation, dealing with its far wider field is to be successful, can there be any doubt that the same pattern must be followed?
  I do urge responsible Ministers, and the Government as a whole, to study very closely the whole machinery of consultation and exchange of information with Dominion Governments. I know well that arrangements exist for regular consultation with the High Commissioners in London, but I doubt very much whether that is enough. The hon. Member for Stone (Major H. Fraser) during a recent Debate on Foreign Affairs, made a very interesting contribution on the subject. He urged further consideration of annual Imperial Councils and I think he also asked for reconsideration of the proposal made by Mr. Menzies that there should be a permanent Commonwealth Secretariat. I, too, hope that these things may come, but I am convinced that even without them a much better exchange of views and information could be achieved than now exists. Too often in this House, when Ministers are asked whether the Dominions have been consulted upon some action that has been taken, the answer is that the Dominions have been kept informed, but that is it very different matter.
  If we are to achieve Commonwealth unanimity, I believe we must have some system of contact, on the departmental level. The fault may not lie by any means entirely with the British Government, or with our own system. It may possibly rest with the Dominion Governments. I would like to cite from my own personal experience in order to show why I am stressing this matter so strongly. I am anxious that the Under-Secretary of State should take up this point, because it is, I believe, fundamental to our Commonwealth relationships.
  At one stage during the war it was necessary at very short notice to reduce sailings from North America to Australia and New Zealand. I have no doubt that High Commissioners in London, and the Prime Ministers' of the Dominions concerned, were fully advised of the basic
  1230
  shipping figures and of the operational requirements which had made the cut in sailings necessary. I am certain, on the other hand, that even the departmental Ministers in the Dominions had no understanding of the circumstances which had made the cuts necessary. These Depart-' mental Ministers had to bear the brunt of criticism in the Press and elsewhere when shortages began to appear, but all they knew was that, unexpectedly, their supply programmes had been thrown out of gear, and sailings had been cancelled. Not unnaturally, they were very resentful of what they considered very highhanded action by the United Kingdom Government. I am emphasising this point because I think it is not enough to have a good machine working with the High Commissioners in London. Some system should be devised which will enable working members of Governments in the Dominions to know what is happening.
  This all boils down to something of which I have been convinced for a long time, namely, that we must stop thinking of ourselves as the mother country. We are co-partners. No partner should take any action which affects the interests of his co-partners, without making certain that all are fully informed, and, as far as possible, are in complete agreement. I make no apology for straying into the subject of Dominion relationships during a Debate upon foreign affairs. I am absolutely convinced that the future of our relationships with the United States of America depends upon the Commonwealth approach. On those relationships the future of the United Nations organisation depends.
  Nothing that I have said in any way precludes constant search for close and friendly relations with Russia. If there had been any doubt about it, events have surely made it clear that the Soviet Union is filled with suspicions and fears. I freely admit that those suspicions and fears are understandable, but let us be frank about them. They will take a long time to get rid of. Let us do our level best at least to give a stable foundation to our search for better relations with the Soviet Union, let it be clear that until the United Nations organisation has reached the stage at which every nation in the world can rely upon its functioning, the British Government intend to do their utmost to hold together the Com-

  1231
  monwealth and Empire and to work in the closest unity of purpose with the United States.
  That this involves some much more clear declarations of policy with regard to the strength of our Armed Forces, to the protection of our lines of communication and our bases may well, I know, be embarrassing to certain hon. Gentlemen opposite, but can they not realise that doubt as to our future policy in these matters can do nothing but cause fatal uncertainty, can be nothing but destructive to the aim which everyone of us most fervently desires—the ultimate unity and agreement between the Commonwealth, the United States and the Soviet Union, without which there is little hope for peace in the world?
  7.36 p.m.
  Major Wilkes: The hon. Member for Montrose Burghs (Mr. Maclay) proved adept at letting drop a few tasty morsels for discussion. I shall not attempt to pick up more than one of them before I develop my main theme. I am a little astonished that he should feel worried about the policy of His Majesty's Government and of those who sit behind His Majesty's Government. I do not want to be unduly controversial, but I would point out that it was not a Labour Government that filled our friends in Europe and abroad between 1933 and 1939 with a sense of despair, and of wonder whether we intended to abdicate from our position of world responsibility. The criticisms that occasionally come from the back Benches regarding foreign policy, are mainly because His Majesty's Government are not taking up a sufficiently positive line to make the Empire a moral beacon for the whole world today.
  Mr. Maclay: I am delighted to hear that remark. Would the hon. and gallant Member agree, however, that for many years past there has been an extraordinary attitude on the part of hon. Gentlemen opposite—I am not accusing the hon. and gallant Member himself, because I do not know—of apparent shame about the British Commonwealth of Nations?
  Major Wilkes: Nobody who contemplated, the past 25 years, with its decline of economic standards in the West Indies
  1232
  and the developing Colonial slumdom in West Africa from 1918 onwards, could help criticising many facets of Empire administration. I would like to point out that no hon. Gentleman on the Labour Benches ever advocated, between the two wars, returning to Germany the Colonies which we had taken from Germany.
  I begin my main speech by saying that nobody in this House can help feeling a sense of despair at the fact that today, only some seven or eight months after the end of the world war, we should be discussing, in cold blood, whether we are to have another world war. Nobody can fail to feel horror and disgust, and a sense of foreboding for the future of the human race. The invention of gunpowder meant that feudalism had to disappear. It marked a step forward for civilisation, more than five or six centuries ago. It meant the disappearance of feudal castles and loyalties. In a similar way the splitting of the atom and the invention of the atomic bomb mean an equally urgent step forward. They mean nothing more or less than that the nation State is finished. They mean that spheres of influence, and the older forms of strategical security are finished too. The nations will not recognise that fact. I differ from the right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan). I am glad to see that he is in his place. I say that almost equal responsibility rests on all the great Powers, who have never shown any sign of even beginning to think in the sort of terms that are necessary today.
  The Soviet Government are no exception to this. At one moment, they say, quite rightly, that their exclusion from the atomic secret suggests to them a danger to their security, and they are thinking in atomic terms. Within the next week or so, they put forward claims to 20 or 30 square miles of territory in Northern Turkey which makes hostile to them the whole of the ruling circles in Turkey. They incur the hostility of the Turkish nation by making a claim which, in modern terms of security, and in terms of modern weapons, can give no security at all.
  We have this strange dualism running through the policies of all the great Powers. At one moment they are thinking in terms of 1912, or even of 1936, and, in the next, they are thinking in terms

  1233
  of 1946. I would like to say that the division into spheres of influence which we can all see taking place, indeed, before our eyes, and to which the right hon. Member for Bromley drew such eloquent attention, means that we, and all the great Powers, are seeking to develop, support and back those elements in the countries near to our own spheres of influence which we judge will be most friendly. This is not just something which Russia is doing. It is something which we are doing in the Middle East and which- America is doing in the Pacific, and I should like to take up, if I may, the question of whether or not we have been playing the game of power politics in Greece.
  It is not a barren argument, or an academic argument, because, surely, it we realise that our own motives are no different from those of Russia, if we realise that all the great Powers are playing a similar game, we shall, at least, begin to approach future problems with a sense of realism. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley might devote his attention to the fact that, throughout the German occupation, we were trying to develop a balance of power among the guerilla groups and were supporting and arming smaller groups to prevent E.L.A.S. holding a too dominant position among the guerilla forces. During no three months in 1943 or 1944 did the total casualties inflicted by E.L.A.S. upon the Germans amount to less than 1,000—not large in terms of what other Partisans were doing, but still sufficient to hold 120,000 German troops in Greece, and no mean contribution, therefore, to our Allied victory.
  What happened? Because we were playing this insane game of power politics from the beginning of the German withdrawal on 6th September at Kalamata until the landing, five weeks later, of British troops at Patras, although E.L.A.S. troops had been placed under the direct orders of G.H.Q., no single directive to the E.L.A.S. forces in Greece for action against the Germans reached the Partisan headquarters. Indeed, British officers in Greece had to transmit messages to Partisan leaders telling them not to follow the retreating Germans out of the Peloponnesus, telling them that, on no account, without General Scobie's permission, were they to cross the Corinth Canal. because we did not want E.L.A.S. forces
  1234
  to approach the region of Athens before the arrival of British troops in Athens. That was certainly one of the reasons why the guerillas did not attack the Germans when evacuating Greece.
  I always think it strange to find this charge made against the guerilla forces— that they did not chase the Germans out of Greece—coming from hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite who know that it was not policy to give orders to the Partisans to do so because of the fear that the guerilla forces would have been most dangerous, politically, at that moment. So far as actual events that took place are concerned, the guerilla forces actually entered Athens on 13th October and the first British troops on 16th, and the Partisan troops, contrary to what was feared, made no attempt to seize power at all. For three days they were in absolute control of the city, and for three days they did absolutely nothing. They lined up on the quay welcoming the British troops and cheered with the rest of the population. So much for that kind of fear.
  Before it became necessary to falsify the facts of Greek resistance to fit in with the Churchillian policy that developed later, General Scobie made a speech at Corinth of which I have made special note. He spoke on 24th October, 1944, and, in addressing the E.L.A.S. leaders at Corinth, he said:
  " The Germans are being chased from Epirus. I hope that before long we shall have completely cleared them from Salonika and Macedonia. I know you are eager to continue the fight, but there is not time to get you into contact with the enemy before he crosses the Yugoslav border, where he will be suitably dealt with by our gallant Allies—the Yugoslavs and the Russians."
  That is a speech which I have not forgotten, and which I think has been quoted for the first time in this House. I absolutely agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley that we must not leave Greece. Greece has suffered far too much in this war, and needs our help as much as anyone needs our help. I only regret this perfectly absurd demand on the part of the Soviet Union for the immediate evacuation of British troops. We have a great contribution to make, and I hope we shall make it. Let it not be misunderstood that this desperate attempt on the part of some Left Wing circles is because they

  1235
  have, for 16 months now, been waiting for us to play fair or to evacuate, and the demand to evacuate comes almost as a last despairing cry that we will play fair.
  As for Russia, I believe that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley was most fair in his alternative proposal. I think that Russian policy today is not a policy expressing strength and confidence, but is, rather, a policy expressing insecurity, and I think that what we are watching today is the 1946 equivalent of what we watched in 1939 and 1940. I believe we are watching today the last desperate effort to close all land approaches to the Soviet Union, a last desperate effort to create a series of buffer states, a policy not born of strength and self-confidence but out of self-distrust. Russia lost 8,000,000 to 10,000,000 men in this war. The open gloating in the Allied Press over the atomic bomb discovery has put back Russian and British relations for many months, and it 'will take much hard work to revive them. Speeches such as that made by Mr. L. S. Amery that, with the invention of the atomic bomb, Russia becomes vulnerable and a secondary Power, are given an importance in the Soviet Union far beyond the importance they receive in this House.
  I prefer to believe that Russian policy today is a policy of self-defence, a policy of attempting to gain security by the rather pathetic means and the rather pathetic methods whereby we are attempting to gain our own security in different spheres. We have forgiven ourselves so easily for- the history of the last 25 years of Anglo-Russian relations that we find it irritating that Russia does not forgive us so easily for our record. But I believe that with patience, with firmness and with faith we can achieve that agreement with the Soviet Union, without which the future of the human race is indeed dark.
  In conclusion, I would like to say a few words about the situation in the Middle East as it has developed in this insane attempt to build up spheres of influence in an age of atomic energy. I hope I shall not be ruled out of order if I mention Palestine. Palestine is part of the Middle East and it is utterly unreal to talk about Palestine without
  1236
  reference to the power politics carried on in that sphere. The criticism that is some times made of the Foreign Secretary's policy is not that he is playing power politics, but that he is not playing the right kind of power.politics. If we are to—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): Although I cannot rule the hon. and gallant Gentleman out of Order, I think it is desirable, as we are having a special time set aside for a Debate on Palestine, that any reference to Palestine should be reserved until then.
  Major Wilkes: With the greatest respect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I would mention that I approached Mr. Speaker before he left the Chair and asked if it would be in Order to mention Palestine in passing, and he said he thought it would.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I did say I could not rule the hon. and gallant Gentleman out of Order, but I hope his reference to Palestine will not be unduly extended.
  Major Wilkes: As I said, the criticism sometimes made of the Foreign Secretary is not that he is playing power politics— indeed, in the somewhat desperate straits in which we now find ourselves the playing of power politics is inevitable—but that he is not playing the right kind of power politics. He is not playing the power politics which will win, and he is not backing the forces that are capable of appealing to the masses of the world who desire more than anything else social and economic reform. If this country is to play its part in the world as a great Power, as we hope it will, it is essential that it shall be thought of as a leader of the progressive forces, of the unprivileged peasants and of all the urban working classes of the Middle East "living in squalor. If we do not lead these forces to a better existence, we shall find that other great Powers will do the task for us. So long as this Empire of ours remains a symbol in Asia and the Arab Middle East of Colonial Imperialism, so long our position in relation to the Soviet Union and America will not be that of a first-rate Power, but of a third-rate declining Colonial Power
  The tragedy of the Palestinian situation is that policies are being devised, and

  1237
  have been devised in the last 10 years, not with a view as to what is best for the inhabitants of Palestine, but with a view as to which policy will best serve our interests in this power, politics struggle. The criticism we make is that the elements on which the Tory Foreign Office officials and the last Government relied proved, in the hour of greatest need, broken reeds. I want to quote from a noted friend and admirer of the Arab people, Glubb Pasha, who says, according to a book written by an ex-Member of this House:
  " I do not think it is fully realised to what extent during the six weeks before Baghdad fell the whole Arab world seemed to be solidly against us. Every Arab was convinced we were done for. Every Arab force previously organised by us mutinied and refused to fight for us."
  I want to see a policy adopted in the Middle East which will rally to our side the kind of people who have recently been arrested in Cairo for carrying on Socialist propaganda. I want to see a policy which will enable the Arab peasant in debt to the landowner, to the landlord, and to the money-lender to feel that Britain has a contribution to make in the Middle East. Unless we do that, we have no future in terms that matter in the Middle East, and the only terms that are beginning to matter all over the ex-Colonial Empires of Asia are the terms of social and economic betterment. Unless our Foreign Office realises that, then it is thinking in utterly antiquated terms. It is because of our anxiety on this point that we are pressing, as much as we can, for a reform of the Foreign Office. We believe that the men who were advising the Governments of this country between 1925 and 1939 showed an utterly unreal appreciation of the balance of forces. One has only to read the memoirs of ex-Ambassadors to realise that they were living in a childish world that has long since passed away.
  I ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs not to underestimate the very real, deep and urgent feeling we have that there should be in the capitals of Europe and throughout the Middle East men who can appreciate the new ideas that are stirring in the minds of peasants and workers the world over, men who can mould their policy so that this country becomes a symbol to the world of progressive leadership in terms of Imperial power because, in terms of physical power, it must be admitted that this country has neither the
  1238
  ability nor the resources to stand up to America or the Soviet Union. We shall either make our contribution to the ideals for which we stand or we shall make very little contribution in the near future at all.
  I want to conclude by quoting Lord Lytton, not only because he made this speech at a key moment in our history when the old world represented by the Tory Party entirely failed to understand why the League of Nations had to work or why the alternative was war if it did not work. He made this speech in 1933 in reply to those so-called realistic speeches made by Sir John Simon which undermined the whole system of collective security and made the next war inevitable. He made it to the so-called "realists" who still sit on the benches opposite, and this is what he said:
  " You will, perhaps, feel disposed to criticise me for being too theoretical, too idealistic shall we say, for a practical world. It is true that I have spoken of principles and moral principles, but it is the business of statesmen to find practical means of giving effect to principles which they have accepted and it is not justifiable or statesmanlike to abandon principles whenever you find them inconvenient."
  7.59 p.m.
  Professor Savory: I have listened, Mr. Deputy Speaker, with the most profound attention to the words of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and I should very much have liked, had it been possible, to reply to his remarks on Palestine. I have travelled in that country, and I might have contributed something to the Debate. But in view of what you have said, Sir, I must refrain.
  In regard to Greece, I listened to every word of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when he dealt with that question. I heard his speech not only in English but also in the most exquisite French from a superb interpreter, and, therefore, I think I know it fairly well. I should have thought that the speech— especially the quotations from the trade union report and from Sir Walter Citrine—would have replied in advance to practically everything the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Central Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Major Wilkes) has said.
  With regard to the other point raised by the hon. and gallant Gentleman—the question of Russia—I agree with him that

  1239
  we should do everything we possibly can to remove all suspicion, and that has been the policy of the present Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and of his predecessor. One hon. Gentleman in the course of his speech spoke of '' mud slinging "by this side of the House against Russia. I cannot plead guilty to any such charge. During the whole period of the war, I have uttered nothing but the utmost praise of and gratitude for the Russian achievements. For many years I have been a deep student of Russian literature, and I have a very profound admiration for the Russian people. Nothing that I have ever said is, in any sense, derogatory of a great nation, but at the same time I feel we in this House should show fair play, and I have been deeply affected by attacks which have been made in this House on the Polish Army. The hon. and gallant Member for Totnes (Brigadier Rayner) said that from his experience after talking to Russian officers the Russians knew nothing about what we had done in this war, that they had not been told of our achievements in Africa or in any other part of the world. I cannot help feeling that hon. Members opposite perhaps also need a wholesome reminder of what the Poles have done for us in the war. I do not want to speak at great length—these facts are well known—but perhaps I might be allowed to give a very brief summary.
  First of all, at the time of the catastrophic defeat of Poland after those five weeks of heroic struggle, a great many of the Poles escaped and formed in France several divisions. Two divisions fought with the utmost heroism on the French front up to the last moment. The armoured brigade fought against almost impossible odds, and after the collapse of France, no less than 30,000 Polish troops managed to get to Great Britain. I would like to point out, without saying anything derogatory of our French Allies, that I do not know of any single French land unit which escaped abroad. Then do not let us forget the heroism of that Polish mountain brigade which took part in the battle of Norway and so distinguished itself at Narvik, and do let me remind hon. Members of the amazing gallantry of the Polish Air Force in the Battle of Britain. According to the official report of the Royal Air Force, 10
  1240
  per cent, of the German planes shot down over Great Britain during that battle have been attributed to the Polish fighting squadrons. Then a very notable Polish brigade under the command of General Kopanski, now Chief of Staff of the Polish Armed Forces, was formed in 1940 in Syria out of men who had escaped from Poland through the Balkans and the Middle East. After the French armistice, they disregarded French orders and crossed into Palestine in order to be able to continue the fight. This brigade took part in the first siege of Tobruk in April, 1941, and the heroic part they played there has been so often described that I need scarcely refer to it.
  Then again the first Polish armoured division which now forms part of the British occupying forces in Germany was landed in France from Great Britain on 1st August, 1944, and on 8th August they fought the famous battle of Caen. On 17th August, it was they who succeeded in closing the Falaise Gap. They fought at Ypres between 6th and 8th September and they entered Breda on 14th October. They were the very first to march into Ghent. Their commander was the great General Maczek who fought in Poland in 1939, and who commanded, in the first battle of France, the Polish Armoured Brigade which I have already mentioned. Then do not let us lose sight of the fact that the Polish parachute brigade was the only non-British unit which participated in the famous defence of Arnhem.
  I have not hitherto spoken about the Second Corps of General Anders because I have reserved that for special consideration. I was handed just now by a colleague the "Soviet News," which, if it were sent to me, I should always read with great regularity, because I want to hear both sides. I saw that the principal article was nothing but an attack on General Anders. I should like to remind those who seem, to have launched an attack upon this very great man, of the following facts. He was born in Warsaw, was educated in the Gymnasium there where he learned Russian; in fact he was forbidden to speak Polish even to his own brother. He joined the Russian army, and in the first great war he was the only Russian commander to capture a German general with the whole of his staff, for which he received from

  1241
  the Russians what was considered at that time to be the highest order—the Order of St. George. Further, the Russians showed him so much favour that he was, in the whale of history, the first Pole and the first gentleman whose faith was not of the Orthodox kind, to be admitted to the great Russian military staff college. In the war of 1939 he fought with the utmost gallantry. He has been wounded eight times.
  Of all the brigades that fought in Poland during those terrible five weeks his was certainly the most successful, and, so far from showing any hostility to the Russians, when the Russians advanced into Poland on 17th September and said, "We are coming to help you "—they broadcast it wholesale—" We are coming to help you Poles fight against the Germans," this great man accepted it and was perfectly willing to co-operate with the Russians in carrying out their promise, namely, assisting them to resist the German attack. But when he found that the Russians had made a deal with the Germans for dividing up Poland by the famous Molotov-Ribbentrop line he then realised that his duty was to Poland and he. resisted to the very last. He carried on for five days after the fall of Warsaw, was captured in October by the Russians and imprisoned in solitary confinement for 20 months. I have asked him the reason for this solitary confinement. He said, "I am afraid I cannot tell you. I do not know. All I do know is that I was carried into the Central prison in Moscow—that terrible Lubianka Prison—and I was in solitary confinement for 20 months." When he came out he was still leaning heavily on his crutches, but he was prepared, at the demand of Marshal Stalin, to head the Polish army which it was agreed, after the German attack of 22nd June, 1941, should be formed in order to help the Russians against the common enemy. He was perfectly willing to let bygones be bygones, to forget the past and to co-operate in every possible way he could with the Russians.
  It has been alleged, entirely falsely, that he abandoned Russia at that time. I do not want to trouble the House unduly, because I do not want to exceed a certain minimum of time, but I have here two despatches, the full texts of which anybody can see, which Marshal Stalin sent
  1242
  to General Anders. In the first the Marshal was obliged to point out that, owing to lack of provisions', they could only give 30,000 rations to 70,000 Polish troops. Secondly, when it was found that they had not sufficient equipment, Marshal Stalin sent him another telegram, of which I have a copy, suggesting he should go to the Middle East. When these 70,000 Polish troops arrived in Persia, they were suffering terribly from starvation; they were ill-equipped, and it was some time before General Anders succeeded in restoring their strength. Then in Syria they joined with the brigade of Kopanski, the so-called Carpathian brigade which fought at Tobruk, of which I have already spoken. When they landed in Italy there was a series of magnificent victories beginning with Monte Cassino, going on to Piedimonte and Ancona and finishing with that brilliant assault on and capture of Bologna, one of the most renowned feats in history.
  Today General Anders is being attacked on the ground that he is carrying on anti-Soviet propaganda. He is an honourable man. In any conversation I have ever had with him I have always found that he spoke the truth, and I would not doubt the word of this gallant gentleman for a single moment. He has denied the charges of the Polish Provisional Government that he was supplying certain Polish clandestine organisations with arms and money, and pointed out it was ridiculous to accuse him of sending arms to Poland by air, since he has no aircraft at his disposal and as the Commander-in-Chief of the Second Corps he is under A.F.H.Q., and everything which he has is given to him by them. At the same time, he denied the accusations of anti-Semitism in the Polish Second Corps. There are over 1,000 Jews in this corps, including 180 officers, and not one of those Jews has expressed the desire to return to Poland.
  Therefore, I feel hon. Gentlemen have perhaps been rather biased. I think one of the justifications of university representation is that the Member should try to form an impartial view of these questions. I read both sides. The whole of my life—it is only by the merest chance that I happened to stray into politics— has been devoted to research, and I have tried to form a judgment on the evidence I have been able to discover. I have a

  1243
  large number of Polish friends here in London, but so far from urging them not to go back to Poland I have said to them, "I feel that what you should do, if you possibly can, is to try to restore your country. Go back and work for your native land." They have all said to me over and over again, "That is what we want to do. Do you mean to say when we have our children there in Poland, our wives in Poland, you think we do not want to join them? All that we want is a reasonable guarantee of security."
  I have here extracts from the correspondent of the Associated Press in Warsaw. I have made inquiries and have been told by an American friend that this Mr. Larry Allen is one of their most reliable and esteemed correspondents. This is his despatch sent on 5th February:
  "Authoritative sources reported today a new drive by Polish secret police whose net already has swept an estimated 75,000 to 100,000 persons into prison. Official accounts of police activity were not available, and Brigadier General Stanislas Radkiewicz "—
  that is to say the Minister of Security
  "—has repeatedly refused to see journalists. Newspaper reports are censored closely and all incoming and outgoing messages are scrutinised by the military."
  I give that despatch for what it is worth. I have told the House the name of the author, a Mr. Larry Allen—who is, from the name, possibly a very good Irishman—and that is what he sends to the Associated Press from Warsaw. I confirmed that by looking at the papers published in Stockholm. During the last war I had the honour to be sent out as Secretary to His Majesty's Minister in Stockholm and I try not to forget my Swedish if I possibly can. The "Stockholm Svenska Dagbladet" and the "Morgon Tidninjen" have published similar information from Warsaw:
  " Many political prisoners in Poland, probably many thousands of them, are being kept in prison for eight months and even more without being properly tried. The official Warsaw authorities explain that the large number of arrested persons makes it impossible to carry out the examination in due time. An American sergeant by the name of Louis Nagy, who was kept in prison for five months until released as a result of the intervention of the American Ambassador declared he was starved and man-handled several times by the Polish secret police."
  Those are the reports which our Polish friends read, and naturally they feel they
  1244
  must have some guarantee of security before they go back to Poland. I thought it my duty to put a Question to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs with regard to the political murders which are being executed of these partisans and possible leaders and collaborators of Mr. Mikolajczyk. The right hon. Gentleman said this:
  "I am seriously concerned at the number of political murders that have been committed in various parts of Poland in recent weeks, in circumstances that in many cases appear to point to the complicity of the Polish Security Police. I regard it as imperative that the Polish Provisional Government should put an immediate stop to these crimes in order that free and unfettered elections may be held as soon as possible in accordance with the Crimea decisions."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd January, 1946; Vol. 418, c. 143.]
  The reaction among the circles of the Polish Provisional Government was extraordinary. The very next day they summoned a Press conference. I have received reports from the Newspaper Cutting Association to which I subscribe, in which the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was most bitterly attacked. But surely the wind has been taken out of their sails by the very remarkable confirmation from the. American Secretary of State, Mr. Byrnes, who has fully endorsed every single word that was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. The Secretary of State, Mr. Byrnes, issued the following statement on 31st January.
  " In regard to allegations that a reign of.political murder is taking place in Poland, it may be stated that recent reports indicate that a number of murders have taken place, of which in some instances prominent members of the Opposition have been victims. While this Government is fully cognisant of the unsettled conditions which necessarily existed in Poland after six years of occupation, and realise the difficulty confronting the Polish Provisional Government, nevertheless, it is regrettable that the Polish Security Police appear to have been implicated in a number of these cases."
  During the close of the last Session of the old Parliament, week after week for five weeks I put Questions to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs with regard to the 16 Poles, three of them members of the Government, who had been arrested in spite of the safe conduct given to them by the Russian general. Wednesday after Wednesday I put the same question in practically the same words, and the answer was. always the same, that we

  1245
  could get no information. It was only when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) went to San Francisco that M. Molotov revealed the fact that these three members of the Polish Government and other officers had been arrested; and I am thankful to say the right hon. Gentleman, the then Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, broke off negotiations. On a previous Motion for the Adjournment of the House I alluded to the condemnation of those men, when Members of the Labour Party called out and said, "They have confessed." Of course, they confessed, just as our British engineers confessed—were forced to confess that they had committed sabotage; and immediately afterwards went to the British Legation in Moscow and withdrew the whole of the confession which they had made.
  How were these confessions of these 16 Polish gentlemen extorted? One of them has escaped into Italy. His name is M. Stypulkowski. What does he say?
  " While in close confinement there, I was cross-examined by the N.K.V.D. agents 141 times, 500 hours in all, while other members of this unfortunate delegation as many as 200 times. The N.K.V.D. possesses a magnificent mechanism for breaking down human resistance. Under its treatment the victim gradually loses his senses of self-criticism and self-preservation and becomes subject to hallucinations which make him an easy prey in the hands of his tormentors. Its object is to extract from the victim complete admission of guilt, and this explains why every person that found himself in collision with the Soviet authorities admitted one and all of the crimes attributed to him by the N.K.V.D. (This method includes the placing of the victim on a table with his hands firmly tied down, and by breaking his resistance with the aid of a powerful electric lamp shining over his head for five days and nights, as well as threats alternating with cajolery)."
  I want to get at the truth. This is the statement of that gentleman Mr.Stypulkowski, who has escaped and has given this statement at the present moment in Italy.
  Other people want to speak, and I want to come to a conclusion. I have tried to give you the facts. I have endeavoured to put them forward with impartiality and objectivity. I have not exaggerated the case. I do feel that I have a natural sympathy with our Polish friends. I have no axe to grind. I live in Belfast. I am only following the history of what is taking place, and I have been moved, for the reasons I have given you, by the history of these cam-
  1246
  paigns—moved with profound admiration for our Polish friends. My one hope is that they will be able to bring about a reconciliation with Russia, and that they will be able to return to their beloved Poland. May I, in conclusion, just quote a few lines from their greatest poet, the poet of 100 years ago, the poet who sang the heroism of their General Kosciuszko? This is what this great poet Mickiewicz said:
  " The Pole, though he is famed in all the nations of the earth,
  For loving more than life itself the country of his birth.
  Yet he is ready to depart and to the world's end go
  And live the weary length of years in misery and woe,
  Fighting against the might of men and destiny's cruel hand.
  That through the storm this hope may shine: I serve my fatherland."
  8.25 p.m.
  Mr. Boothby: I think the House has listened with great appreciation to the very remarkable speech which has just been delivered. I do not want to follow my hon. Friend into a discussion of the Polish question, because he knows more about it than I do. I content myself with expressing the hope to His Majesty's Government that they will accord decent treatment to these Poles in Italy, and in my native country of Scotland, who feel unable in existing circumstances to return to their native land. Time was in the past when we were not afraid or ashamed to offer asylum to foreigners who were willing to work and earn their way and their keep in this country; and I think that in view, especially, of our desperate shortage of labour at the present time, we could do much worse than offer generous treatment to any people who fought hard for the Allied cause during the war, and who would prefer to make their homes in the future in this country. I only say, in the light of the speech of my hon. Friend, that I hope the Government will give sympathetic consideration to this.
  It has been generally acknowledged that we made a pretty fair mess of things after the last war; and that there were two main causes for this. First of all, our failure to achieve a stable political situation, or a stable economy, in Western Europe; and, secondly, our failure to make the League of Nations an effective

  1247
  instrument of international policy for the maintenance of peace. Our failure in Western Europe was mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) in his opening speech this afternoon. It was due, fundamentally, to our refusal to underwrite French security; and that was the cause of most of the subsequent troubles. But it was also due to our refusal to abandon the obsolete economic doctrines of laissez faire and multi - lateral free trade, and our refusal to accept the modern economic concept of regional planning and organisation, both for defence and for economic purposes. There was at the end of the last war a Supreme Economic Council, which was precipitately abolished. There was also a proposal, shortly after the last war, for an economic anschluss between Germany and Austria. It was specifically prohibited. Nor were regional agreements, political or economic, permitted by the Western democracies and victorious Allies after the last war
  I vividly remember a dinner in Dusseldorf in 1928 when Fritz Thyssen, of all people, made what was probably the last concrete proposal for an economic union in Western Europe. He suggested to me that the coal and iron and steel industries of France, Germany and Great Britain should get together; and he said that the whole future of Western Europe depended on an economic union of this kind. I came back here and made two speeches on the subject in this House; and I remember that, while the idea aroused some interest, it was allowed to fade. I think Thyssen had the guts of the problem there. If we had been able to get together in an economic federation in Western Europe, with all our heavy industries, this war might never have broken out. But what happened? Instead, we poured money indiscriminately into Germany. So did the United States of America, with no plan or purpose, other than that of making quick dividends; and then we suddenly withdrew it all, in the crisis of 1930. The result was economic chaos; and 7,000,000 unemployed in Germany, on whose backs Hitler climbed into power. The absence of any effective economic co-operation on a regional basis between the many newly created political States after the last war
  1248
  reduced central and eastern Europe to complete anarchy
  Meanwhile, the League of Nations, composed of independent, disputing Sovereign States, careless of economic realities, entirely pre-occupied with the political chess board, had completely failed to produce any kind of authority capable of imposing order upon a rapidly disintegrating world.
  What is the position today? How are we doing, by comparison? It would be a brave and optimistic man who said that we were doing very much better. There are some of us who would say that we are doing even worse. We have not, I admit, abolished the Supreme Economic Council, for the very simple reasons that there is not one to abolish, and never has been. But, so far as the settlement of Western Europe is concerned, and particularly the future of Germany, we appear to have no views of any kind at all. The Russians discovered this at Yalta, at Potsdam, and at San Francisco. They discovered that we. had no views about the settlement of Europe; no views at all about the future of Germany; so they went ahead and imposed their own terms in Eastern Europe. Mr. Molotov—I watched him with great interest and considerable admiration at San Francisco—found the Western democracies of Europe divided, undecided, disunited and impotent. It was easy for him, in these circumstances, to run through their broken ranks; and the ball is still at his feet.
  I am sorry, but not altogether surprised, that our relations with the Soviet Union should have become so bad. Hon. Members opposite must, I think, confess that many of them at the last Election proclaimed—my opponent did—that the return of a Socialist Government was absolutely essential to put relations between this country and Russia upon a firm, sound, good and solid basis. Yet today our relations with Russia are infinitely worse than they were when the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) was Prime Minister. Why? Perhaps it is because the Russians have never had any great respect for indecision, for impotence, or for words as such. I am not afraid of war in the near or even in the middle future. Wars break out only because one side thinks

  1249
  it is strong enough to achieve a quick victory; and the only certain thing about a third world war is that both sides would be destroyed completely, and probably the rest of humanity would be annihilated at the same time. I am, however, very much" afraid of a kind of "frozen peace," based on suspicion and fear, which can do no good to this country and the rest of the world. The danger of this has not been diminished by the public slanging matches which we have recently witnessed between the Foreign Secretary and Mr. Vyshinsky. I agree with the right hon. Member for Bromley and the hon. and gallant Member for Carshalton (Brigadier Head), who, if I may say so, made a most remarkable maiden speech, that there is real hope for our future relationship with Soviet Russia. The motives of the Soviet Union are not yet quite clear to some of us on both sides of the House. But, as one who has fought for 20 years for Anglo-Soviet friendship, and who was not long ago described by a Member of the Opposition as a "hack Communist speaker," my impression is that the Russians are mainly occupied, and preoccupied, with the question of their own security; and that we can do a deal with them provided—not that we "stand up" to them as I think one hon. Member said—but provided we are perfectly frank with them, and put all our cards on the table.
  I do not blame the Soviet Government for being suspicious of us, after our lamentable policy towards them between the two world wars. At the same time, I think that they underestimate, because they do not clearly understand, the importance to us of sea power, and therefore of the Eastern Mediterranean. Like many other great land powers, including Germany—and I think that was one of the main reasons why Germany lost the war—they have never quite understood the vital importance of the sea to a great maritime Power like us. I think that we can talk to them about that; and, perhaps, ultimately persuade them of it. But of one thing I am quite certain. Russia is essentially an Oriental country, and I do not think it is altogether wise to conduct negotiations with an oriental country in the teeth of the radio, and under the arc lamps of modem publicity. I do not think that, in the long run, will get you
  1250
  anywhere. I think that it is much better to conduct delicate negotiations in private, in spite of the clap trap that is talked about secret negotiations. Then, when you have completed your talks and arrived at some general understanding, that is the moment to bring the whole thing into the full blaze of publicity.
  Let us consider for a moment this business of the United Nations, which has been referred to at intervals in the Debate today, but skated over rather quickly. I think that the term "United Nations" is, at present, something of a misnomer and, in the light of recent events, something of a farce. This Assembly of over 50 independent Sovereign States is merely an international talking shop. That is so far as it has got as yet; and so long as the veto power remains in its present form, that is as far as it will ever get. There is a good deal to be said for a talking shop—it clears the air from time to time—but a genuine union of nations must involve some surrender of national sovereignty, and that has not yet been achieved. We can all agree that our ultimate aim must be the establishment of the rule of law among the nations; and it is no use kidding ourselves that we have got it, or that we are yet within sight of it. I never thought that I should quote the "New Yorker" to this House—that remarkably vivid, gay, pungent, American newspaper with which many hon. Members are familiar. It recently contained the following remarkable passage, commenting on a statement of President Roosevelt that the United Nations had agreed upon everything up to 90 per cent, at Dumbarton Oaks:
  " A league of sovereign independent nations faces a problem of police control which is insoluble. It may define aggression, draw rules, and agree on a means of enforcing the rules, but it must founder on the ledge of sovereignty and on the test of whether, in a pinch, a nation shall control its own destiny and act as it pleases. If you like you may call this only 10 per cent., but at a place like Munich— which is where it lands you eventually—it looks bigger than that, and tougher."
  I think that there is a great deal of truth in that. We can all agree that it would be better if we now had a little more action, and a little less public debate. We may perhaps be galvanised into this by the spectre of famine that hangs today over Europe and many other parts of the world. In such a situation, I submit that discussion should surely

  1251
  centre round food and raw materials, rather than politics and gold. I have said many times in this House that if His Majesty's Government had devoted a tenth part of the time they have wasted talking about currency stabilisation in a world that does not yet exist, to talking about goods, we should be living in a very much easier world today. The same thing goes for U.N.O. If that organisation had concentrated on the urgent and desperate tasks of rescue and reconstruction that face it, instead of allowing itself to be diverted by untimely and fruitless political controversy, the outlook today would be far more hopeful than it is.
  I conclude with two constructive proposals. The first is that His Majesty's Government should impress on the United Nations organisation the desirability of setting up now a Supreme Economic Council to deal with the present emergency, charged with the responsibility for initiating a world economic policy conceived in terms of essential raw materials and food, and directed to the immediate relief of urgent human needs. I venture to suggest that had the United Nations organisation addressed itself to this most urgent and most desperate task in recent weeks, instead of wasting its time in the barren sands of fruitless political controversy, it would have made a greater contribution to human welfare, and a better impression upon the world at large.
  My second suggestion is that His Majesty's Government should take the lead, for which many countries are now looking, to build up a regional economic bloc in Western Europe. It is the first time that has been mentioned in this Debate. By this I mean quite simply the regional grouping or federation of countries which have economic interests in common; similar, if not identical, economic objectives; complementary trade requirements; and, last but not least, a common political and cultural heritage, which otherwise might easily be lost. It is manifestly absurd to suggest that such a federation would be directed or organised against anyone, and no one knows that better than the Kremlin, which has done precisely and exactly the same thing in Eastern Europe already. On the contrary, a united Western Europe would provide a far more substantial and stable market for primary producing countries;
  1252
  and prosperity breeds prosperity. Provision for such regional organisations— and I want to press this upon the Minister of State—is specifically made in the Charter of the United Nations; and two are already in existence, one in the Western sphere embracing the United States and the South American countries, and the other in Soviet Russia and the satellite Powers which are firmly within her orbit. I submit that three such organisations are better for the United Nations, and for the world, than two. I do not want to see the world divided into great Power organisations, one of which is based on iron Communism, and the other on what my hon. Friend the Member for Chippen-ham (Mr. D. Eccles) and myself have described as free knock-about capitalism. I fear an ultimate clash between two such organisations.
  I feel that in Western Europe we have a separate, different contribution to make, based upon our long history, our traditions, and our culture, which might combine the best elements both of Soviet Russia and the United States. Anyway, we had better face the realities of the situation, which are that between these two great federations of Soviet Russia, on the one hand, and the United States, on the other, fortified by their satellite Powers—because that is all you can call them either in South America or in Eastern Europe—the smaller nations of Western Europe, of whom we are one, cannot hope to survive, politically or economically, in isolation. Unless we get together in pursuit of a common political and economic policy, we shall inevitably, sooner or later, be absorbed into one or other of these two great economic and political blocs which surround us, one in the East and the other in the West. Much lip-service has been paid in this country to the principle of federation; but when it comes to action it is a rather different matter. Recently I made in the country some severely practical suggestions with regard, first of all, to the future of the Western zone of Germany; secondly, to the international control of the industries of the Ruhr; and thirdly to a reciprocal agreement on trade between like-minded countries in the Western European zone. They were dismissed, except in another place, as largely impracticable. Nevertheless, the fact remains—and this is my last sentence—that there is only one alternative to the

  1253
  regional planning of Europe by mutual agreement, and that is yet another attempt at unification of the European economy by force, or by the threat of force. For my part I am in favour of a serious attempt at the first; and I am therefore most strongly in favour of a clear European policy on the part of His Majesty's Government. It is the first time we shall have had it; and it is long overdue.
  8.46 p.m.
  The Minister of State (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker): Hon. Members in various parts of the House have raised a wide variety of topics like Poland, Indonesia, Spain and so on and I am sure the House will forgive me if I leave the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to reply to them tomorrow, and if I confine my remarks to what the hon. Member for Melton (Mr. A. Nutting) and other Members—in spite of the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby)—still persist in regarding, although it is true it is six days since the meetings ceased, as one of the great realities of the present hour, that is, the first meeting of the Assembly of the United Nations. The hon. Member for East Aberdeen, in his references to the United Nations, had an inflexion in his voice which I did not wholly understand. But surely by any test the first meeting of the Assembly must have been an international event of great importance. The acting Leader of the Opposition has said that this is our last chance to save what I think we rightly call our civilisation. We know now, however much some people derided it at the time, that the League of Nations was the last chance but one. If we allow the institutions of the United Nations to perish, as we allowed the institutions of the League of Nations to perish, then the pages of our history are numbered and the memory of our times, in spite of all our great achievements, will pass away. Whether we like it or not, our fate is bound up with the fate of the institutions which came to life in London six weeks ago, and of which the hon. Member for East Aberdeen has spoken as he has done just now.
  I do not think that anyone in his senses believes, that because a Charter had been signed, a new millenium would begin. Some of those who professed to have high hopes are saying that their hopes are dis-
  1254
  appointed. I think perhaps, like the hon. Member for East Aberdeen, they expected too much. They forget it is only six months since the fighting ended and that the powers have not been able even to make their peace treaties. They forget that, in many countries, democracy has been smashed to smithereens and is far from being yet restored. The building up of international democracy—and that is what we have got to do—will be a long and difficult task. It may take many a day before the new institutions have successfully solved the major problems which baffled and defeated statesmen in days gone by.
  In his last speech to the Assembly on its closing night, that brilliant President, M.Spaak of Belgium, who has rendered such great services to the world, said that he had three criticisms to make of the proceedings, three changes which he would like to see. First, he hoped that in future there would be fewer cocktail parties; secondly, he hoped that when delegates had heard a previous speaker express the views which they had intended to express that they would, with however heavy a heart, refrain from speaking; and thirdly, he hoped the Councils would not meet at the same time as the Assembly. That last proposal is one of great substance. On this occasion the Councils could hardly help themselves.
  Indeed, they had to meet at once. But I think no one can doubt that it was a great disadvantage, in many ways, that they should have been meeting while the Assembly itself was in its first session. For one thing, the Security Council, as has been shown today, almost completely blanketed the Assembly from the Press. Some day, Press proprietors will learn that there are limitations to the proposition that only quarrels are news. There was a great deal of work in the Assembly that was news, but was never reported.
  In his most interesting speech today, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) dealt at length with some of the Security Council's proceedings. He said, among other things, that it had become an instrument of power politics by new methods. With great respect, I do not believe that anyone who took part in its work, great or small—and by that I mean

  1255
  representing a great or small Power—will share his view. I think those who took part would share more nearly what I think were the very judicious views expressed by the hon. Member for Melton. I think it is arguable that it would have been better if no questions had been brought before the Security Council at its first meeting, if it had been allowed to get on with the work of organising security, of considering the military agreements which it has to draw up with the member States, planning the work of the military staff committee and the relations of that committee with the atomic commission, and the like. But it was not to be. Appeals were made, and the Council could not refuse to take them up. And I am certain there is a credit balance. Some things have been firmly established. For instance, I do not think any small Power will ever again hesitate to put a complaint before the Council. That is very much. I do not think, as the hon. Member for Melton said, that the Council will now ever try to shuffle out of its duty. I do not think it can, after the precedents which have been created. With all respect to my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen, who is no longer here—
  Mr. Boothby: Yes, I am.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I beg my hon. Friend's pardon. I rejoice to see him in a different place. I believe.every dispute will henceforth be debated not in secret but in the open, in the light of day. I am certain that if the Council had tried to deal with these four matters in secret there would have been disaster before the end. How difficult it would be to hold a Secret Session of this House in time of peace. In international affairs, as in national, the people have a right to know what is being said and done on their behalf and in their name. In the Assembly, on Thursday, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said that public debate was the very essence of democracy, the foundation of its institutions, and the guarantee of the weak and oppressed against injustice and tyranny.
  Major Hugh Fraser: Is it not a question of how much publicity is given to the deliberations of the United Nations? In the Soviet Union I do not think there has been much publicity.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Well, unless the debates are in public no publicity can be given in any country. I hope that the publicity given to United Nations proceedings throughout the world will be greatly increased beyond anything we have known in the past. It was agreed by the Assembly that the United Nations are to have their own radio station, and I hope it will do what the B.B.C. did on their European service, namely, broadcast day by day proceedings to the world at large. I believe that only good can come out of that.
  I do not want to discuss the details of the four different questions which came before the Security Council, but I do assert that in three of them concrete, practical results of importance were obtained. Certainly, valuable precedents were created, and a good many lessons learnt about how to make the new machine work, and how it should and should not be used. My hon. Friend the Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts) regretted that there was not another precedent, that we had not agreed on a commission of inquiry in Indonesia. A commission would have been, in many ways, a useful precedent, which every right minded man would have welcomed. But I ask him to consider that in this particular case not a shadow of argument had been brought forward to prove the case against the conduct of British troops. Indeed, Dr. Sjahrir himself has said that not a shot had been fired by British troops, except in self-defence. The member of the United Nations—the Ukraine—who raised the matter, did not ask for the British troops to be withdrawn. It might have had a devastating effect on the negotiations going on between Dr. Van Mook and Dr. Sjahrir if a commission had been sent to Indonesia. Surely, it was better not to be doctrinaire about a commission, and to accept the result of what was, on the whole, a very satisfactory debate. In any case, I would like to assure my hon. Friend that no precedent against a commission of inquiry has been created.
  But the principal thing I want to say about the Security Council is utterly to deny that its debates made relations between the great Powers any worse. On the contrary, I believe they improved relations between ourselves and the Soviet Union, and I am certain they improved

  1257
  relations between the Soviet Union and the United States, and, incidentally, between the United States and ourselves. That in itself would not be a bad result. Let the House remember that, before these matters were brought before the Council, charges were being made against the United Kingdom throughout the world, day by day. They were being listened to, they were creating resentment, misunderstanding and ill-feeling. It was far better for these matters to come out into the open. I am certain it was the feeling of every delegate on the Council, who took part in those discussions, that the general atmosphere had been positively improved. I know that that was the view that Mr. Stettinius took, because he said so to the American people before he left these shores. Many of his colleagues said the same to me in private. The Australian chairman said so in his closing speech. And may I quote what Mr. Vyshinsky said to the Council in the last sentence he used in the most dramatic of all the discussions—that about Greece? He said:
  " In conclusion, may I express the hope that the relations between the Soviet Union and Great Britain will develop in the direction of strengthening and growth of friendship and co-operation in the interests of both countries and of all the nations united in the new, young. United Nations Organisation."
  I could bring much evidence from other public statements by Mr. Vyshinsky and his colleagues, and from private conversations, to prove that these words were sincerely spoken, and were intended to be believed.
  I come back from the Council to the Assembly. It was at one time thought that the first meeting of the Assembly should be primarily constitutional in character. With all respect to my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen, that would have been a difficult enough and an important enough task for one meeting. But for my part, I never believed, from September last, that the Assembly would get through without having to deal-with some of the difficult and urgent questions which the war had left behind. But I never doubted that its main task would be constituent; that it would have to create an international democratic system for the conduct of international affairs. To do that, we have to get, as my hon. Friend said, a basis of accepted constitutional and general law; legal institutions to apply it; political institutions to develop it, and to promote
  1258
  the common interests which nations share; we have to secure the conduct of business by Parliamentary Debate, and that means debate in public; we have to secure the acceptance of majority rule; and we have to develop—what it took us a good many centuries in this country to develop—a general desire that the institutions should be made to work.
  The Assembly had to start with, as the foundation for its constitutional and general law, the Charter drawn up as the result of the meetings at Dumbarton Oaks and San Francisco. It added to that Charter rules of procedure and, in its five weeks' work, it created many new precedents and adopted interpretations of the Charter and of the rules of procedure which already are beginning to build up the system of law.
  Of course, there are defects in the constitutional law of the Charter; nobody doubts it. If the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) had had to draft it alone, he would not have written the Charter as it is today, and still less should we have done so on this side of the House. We have to take it as it is, and I think we shall find that there were a good many defects in our own constitutional law, even after we had cut off King Charles's head. We have to remove the defects as and when we can, but let us not be in too great a hurry. Let us remember our own history, let us remember how much custom and interpretation can do. I believe that if we go on as we have begun, confidence will rapidly grow, and I believe that we shall most rapidly make confidence grow if we use the instrument we have, rather than if we undermine it by saying that we know it will never work.
  We have to have legal institutions. The Court of International Justice was elected by the Assembly; and it is a very strong Court, to which the' British Commonwealth contributed two most distinguished judges. This Court is to meet in April, its quarters are already settled at The Hague, and it has some work already on its books—a dispute, between this country and Guatemala about a frontier, which we have expressed our readiness to submit to the decision of the Court, and a request from the Security Council for an advisory opinion about the meaning of

  1259
  the Statute of the Court itself. Our hope is that the Court will play a far greater part in the life of the world than the old Court of prewar days. If we can make it do so, it certainly will. The Assembly had to bring the political institutions into life.
  I venture the assertion that, from the technical point of view, in spite of the improvised Secretariat with which we had to work, in spite of the improvised buildings in which we had to work, in spite of the fact that it was the first meeting, this Assembly worked more smoothly, and that it had a higher level of Debate and a better record of result, than any Assembly of the League of Nations at its best. That is saying a good deal. It means that we owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to Mr. Gladwyn Jebb and his improvised Secretariat, and if I spare my words tonight I hope no one will think that my gratitude, or that of the Government, is the less warm for that. Mr. Jebb and his colleagues, many of whom were still in status national civil servants, worked with an energy, a single minded devotion to their task, which was the admiration of all who saw it. I would agree, further, with the view expressed by the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Vernon Bartlett) that in this Assembly there was a higher proportion of good Parliamentarians than we used to have, and that there was, broadly speaking, a greater knowledge of the work to be done.
  The Assembly elected the councils and the Secretary-General. There were very keen elections for the councils. Some people said there was too much manoeuvring, too much canvassing, going.on. That meant, at least, that there was great importance attached to the work of the councils by the members of the United Nations. I think it was a very healthy sign. The elections, in fact, were marked by the most generous withdrawal of Canada in favour of Australia, and of New Zealand in favour of Yugoslavia. Apart from that episode, however, I venture to say that the results of the elections gave us extremely strong councils—one of them the Supreme Economic Council—which have already proved that they will do admirable work.
  Democracy requires the acceptance of majority decisions. I began my personal
  1260
  part in this work in August last, and I often found at the beginning that I had differences about points of very real importance with my Soviet colleague, and I often found that both he and I had some difficulties in accepting a defeat when we were defeated. But our discussions, as the weeks and months went by, became increasingly more amicable and increasingly more fruitful in their results, and matters that would have caused us the very greatest difficulty in the beginning were accepted without difficulty at all in the end. We found it easier to differ and easier to agree; and if sometimes one of us had taken a strong line and was beaten, the next time it would probably be the other, and we all accepted the majority decision taken and we went on to the next business with our friendship quite unchanged.
  The same thing happened in the Assembly. On many matters of major importance there were majority decisions, sometimes after heated and prolonged debates. They were loyally accepted, and plainly accepted, by all parties, with a determination that the decision taken should be made to work. I said that to make democratic institutions a success, you must have a general spirit of cooperation. I remember Lord Balfour telling me in the very early days of the League of Nations that some foreigner had once asked him why the British Parliament worked so well. He said that, after some reflection, he answered, because all parties wanted it to work. That is what we have to get in these international institutions; and I am certain from conversations with delegations from every Continent, that, when they left London those who were here felt that they had made good progress in five weeks towards that goal.
  I said a lot of important, concrete political work arose. I have not time to describe it in the seven minutes which remain. I have spoken of the Atomic Commission, of the Military Staff Committee, and of the great tasks they must face. We had a very prolonged and animated Debate about the World Federation of Trade Unions, the International Co-operative Alliance, and other bodies which desire to be associated with the work of the United Nations. The decisions made, the plans proposed, which in my view will certainly be adopted, for

  1261
  securing the co-operation and the support of those great mass movements throughout the world, were a most important piece of work, and I venture to hope that it is one of the factors upon which we can rightly build hope that these great mass movements will in future be associated with, and be giving their whole-hearted support to the cause to which we are all pledged.
  The hon. Member for North Cumberland regretted that we had not done more about refugees. The refugee problem is one of the very greatest importance and of great urgency. It is now being handled by U.N.R.R.A., whose mandate is not yet over. The Economic and Social Council appointed a commission to consider new machinery, and it laid down the principles on which the commission should work. I think if new machinery is required for refugees, we shall have it fey September, and, with respect to the hon. Member, that will be soon enough.
  In their most interesting speeches my hon. Friends the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) and the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. H. Davies) raised the question of famine and hunger in the different continents of the world. My hon. Friend the Member for Maldon said that hunger is the main fact in world politics today. The Assembly did not do nothing on the subject of hunger, as the hon. Member for Aberdeen alleged. On the contrary it did everything it could. It was raised on the initiative of my right hon. Friend, and a very remarkable debate took place. As a result of that debate, the President of the United States made his most striking statement a week ago, promising enormous help which otherwise might not have been forthcoming—something up to, unless I am misinformed, 60,000,000 bushels of wheat, with a great deal of other foodstuffs. Canada promised not only to keep on her present restrictions but to make greater efforts than she has already made. Australia told us that all her rice was to be kept for export and that her present crop, just reaped, was 125,000,000 bushels, contrasting with 53,000,000 bushels last year, and it would, to the maximum possible extent, be kept for export. Other nations promised help according to their power.
  In another Debate, on U.N.R.R.A., Australia promised another one per cent.
  1262
  and so did New Zealand, that is, a total of£15,000,000, Turkey and the Argentine said they were coming in, and would give their contributions, another large sum of money. Other powers promised food. Even countries which have been occupied, like France and Holland, made contributions to the expenses measured in millions of pounds. A Committee was set up to follow up that action and I am certain that a real result will be obtained. And the Assembly Resolution on Food is not the end of the matter. The Emergency Economic Committee in Europe is to hold a conference at the beginning of April, and the Food and Agricultural Organisation is to hold a world conference in the early summer. It is my conviction that, by that action, started by the Assembly, a great result, not only for the crucial months until July, but for next winter also, will be obtained. On other matters of reconstruction raised by hon. Friends, health, transport, economic policy and so forth, the Assembly and the Economic and Social Council took important action of which I have no time to speak.
  In the moments which remain to me, I want to summarise what I think is the main result of these meetings. Some people said we had not the blind enthusiasm or faith of 1920. I lived through 1920 and I do not remember the blind enthusiasm and faith; but I do remember that almost every Government was hostile to the League. Now the Governments are genuinely behind the United Nations. That is the immensely important difference. But if anybody thinks that we can get peace and cooperation between ourselves and Russia by withdrawing important questions from the framework of the United Nations and going back to Three Power politics, by taking important disputes away from the tribunals we have created to deal with them or by trying to obtain security by setting up watertight geographical zones, then I say plainly that His Majesty's Government do not agree. And I do not believe the people of this country will agree. If one thing is more certain than another it is that peace, like prosperity, is indivisible. We are determined to use the institutes of the United Nations to kill power politics, in order that, by the methods of democracy, the will of the peoples shall prevail.
  Mr. Boothby: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he does not agree that this is a very important Debate and if he can give any explanation for the absence of the Foreign Secretary?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir. I hope the hon. Gentleman will realise that the burdens which have fallen upon my right hon. Friend during the last few weeks have reduced him to a great state of fatigue. It has been almost impossible for him even to carry on his day-to-day work at the Foreign Office, and it is a very great burden on him to have this Debate this week. He will be here tomorrow. He will, of course, have reported to him everything that has been said today. I am sure he will make a full reply, and he has, in fact, been present for a considerable part of the proceedings.
  It being a Quarter past Nine o'Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE STATION (WESTCOTT)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."£ [Mr. Simmons.]
  9.16 p.m.
  Sir Stanley Reed: I wish to raise the question of the conversion of the R.A.F. station at Westcott into an experimental station. I do this with some reluctance because this matter has been discussed on several occasions with the Ministry, and the Minister of Supply and the Parliamentary Secretary have given certain assurances, in view of which it may seem somewhat ungracious of me to bring the matter to the attention of the House. There is, however, involved in this transaction a very important question of principle of interest not only to various parts of the country, but to other parts of my own county.
  There was opened, in 1942, an R.A.F. station at Westcott in the county of Buckingham, about ten miles from Aylesbury on the road to Bicester. That station was put down in the very heart of the country, and on some of the very best agricultural land in the county and in the country. Something like 1,000 acres were diverted to the construction and use of the aerodrome. At the end of the war it
  1264
  was found that the aerodrome was no further needed for the purposes of the R.A.F. Those who are interested in the county and its development naturally expected that it would be converted to agricultural purposes and the amenities of the neighbourhood. They were then informed that it was proposed to convert it into an experimental station. Immediately protests were made by all the authorities concerned—by the Aylesbury Rural District Council, by the Central Bucks Joint Planning Committee and by the Bucks War Agricultural Executive Committee; and the ground of the protest in all cases was that these 1,000 acres represented some of the best agricultural land in the country, that they should be preserved for agricultural purposes, that this area had been scheduled as a permanent agricultural zone, and that its retention for Government purposes cut right across all the plans of the rural district council and the Central Planning Council for the preservation and development of the area. As I have said the Ministry listened with all consideration to these representations, and their officers have since shown very marked consideration in consulting local interests as to the works which have been put in hand, without the slightest effect whatsoever on the ultimate conclusion. If I might employ an Eastern proverb:
  " The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on."
  Therefore, I am bound to bring this question to the notice of the House.
  It is quite true that the Minister has given certain definite assurances as to the purposes for which this station will be used, in order to mitigate any fears as to its being a nuisance to the neighbourhood. I must point out to the Parliamentary Secretary that these assurances are not binding on the Minister's successors, and that circumstances may arise which will make it impossible, for the Minister himself to guarantee and carry these assurances into effect. Please understand that I accept implicitly that when the Minister gives these assurances he means to see them carried out. But this is an experimental station, it is dealing with a power to the limit of which no one can set any boundary whatever. Neither the Minister nor we know how far these experiments will have to go, and what shape they will have to take. For those reasons, white accepting these assurances, they have no binding effect on his

  1265
  successors, and they almost certainly raise the question as to whether the Minister having committed himself to this enterprise, can give full effect to them himself.
  No sensible man would say that this experimental station is not necessary. Everyone will agree that the Ministry are wise in exercising prevision in providing for these experiments to be carried out. I am prepared to admit that this may be a convenient centre, but when it is argued that this is the only convenient centre for these experiments, that is making demands upon our credulity which we cannot accept.
  If I am asked to say that in the 700,000 odd acres of various stations available to the various Ministries there is not one station reasonably removed from a centre of population, which does not provide a place where these experiments can be carried on and developed without being an intolerable nuisance, and which does not provide space for expansion to any reasonable degree, that is a proposition which no one who has been round this country, and been round the great stations now derelict in the Eastern counties, can possibly accept. Developments have already taken place which those who know this locality realise were bound to happen. There have been inquiries about the requisitioning of dwellings, the Ministry have to provide accommodation for the workmen on the site. What are they to do? They propose to put them into Aylesbury, one of the most crowded and congested provincial towns in England, where the housing position is desperately acute.
  On these grounds, therefore, I would ask the Minister, even at this stage, to reconsider this decision, and to see whether he cannot even now find a more suitable site which will not be a nuisance, which is capable of expansion, capable of accommodating any developments which are almost bound to occur, rather than fasten on to this neighbourhood a permanent blot which will make life in a considerable area round it almost intolerable. In an apparent paradox the late Gilbert Chesterton said that the difference between the Hun and the Englishman is that the Hun destroys what he hates and the Englishman destroys what he loves, that is, the countryside. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary not to continue on the fatal course of destroying what we love, the English countryside.
  1266
  and to relegate this experimental station to one of those areas on the East Coast, remote from a populated area, where it will be free from all these objections, with ample room for any expansion which the experiments may demand.
  9.25 p.m.
  Flight-Lieutenant Crawley: I am sure the House is indebted to the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Sir S. Reed) for raising this matter, in which some important questions of principle are involved. My constituency marches with, his, and indeed, the line of demarcation goes-straight across the aerodrome where this rocket experimental station is being set up. Therefore, I would like to associate myself with much of what he said. I endorse entirely what he said about the consideration which the Ministry have given both to our representations and those of the local authorities, and I am particularly grateful for the assurance which they have given me that no major development in the experimental establishment at Westcott involving a substantial addition to the noise created will be embarked on without consultation of local interests. I know that the local authorities concerned are very grateful for that assurance.
  There is one small matter on which I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give, if possible, a further assurance. If this experimental station should be closed down in future, will the owners of the land, who have lost their land and who may lose more through the establishment of this experimental station, be given the first option of buying back their land at whatever the market price is? I am not making a case for landlords, but certain farms around this aerodrome have been badly split up, and if the station is ever closed down it would be in the agricultural interests of the district if the land could go back to those farms.
  My main concern is with the future. The Ministry's chief argument for having this experimental station where it is now proposed to have it, at Westcott, is that an assembly plant of this kind must be in the middle of all the factories which make the component parts of the rockets, implements and other things concerned, and that at present, while transport and materials are so short, it is obviously impossible to set aside some out-of-the-way

  1267
  locality and develop it for this purpose. I accept that argument, but the experts with whom I have consulted admit that they cannot tell where these rocket experiments are likely to lead. There are obvious limits to experiments with rockets themselves in this country—the size of the country suggests that very quickly—but it is also apparently quite true that these experiments may lead to entirely unforeseen developments, which may not necessarily be connected with rockets at all. These developments in turn may need a new experimental station and assembly point and then, unless things have altered very much indeed, exactly the same argument is likely to be used about this new station—difficulties of transport and so on. That new station will, therefore, be placed, or there will be a desire to place it, in an area which is in the centre of the manufacturing plants. That area is very likely to be somewhere in my constituency, or in that of the hon. Member for Aylesbury.
  We, therefore, feel a very real interest in future policy on the whole question of scientific research and of rocket research in particular. The question which I should like to put to the Government, therefore, is: What will be their policy in regard to rocket and jet propulsion and atomic research? Are we to allow the continually diminishing area of our countryside to be encroached on piecemeal, as the need arises, by putting up new plants and new experimental stations just wherever, at any given moment, it seems to be most convenient? Or are we to set aside and plan to develop some single locality, if possible fairly remote, where such research and other scientific research could be concentrated, and expanded as the need arises, without spreading' a nuisance and without increasing risk—and in this sort of experiments there are always small risks—and without destroying any farm land or rural amenities in general? However preoccupied the Government may be, the second alternative is the only one which the Government can really seriously undertake. The demands of efficiency, the coordination of scientific research, and the general demands of the rural amenities of this country, make it absolutely essential that we should begin now, especially when we are planning the reconstruction of the country, to plan if necessary a new
  1268
  town, with the necessary transport, in some place which is not in the middle of a residential area. As new experimental stations are needed they could be put into this particular locality, which could be developed on the lines of a trading estate. I do beg the Government not to be caught napping and not to repeat, in the scientific revolution of which we are now on the verge, the mistakes in planning and location of factories and dwelling houses which were made in the industrial revolution and as a result of which this country has suffered so much.
  9.30 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aircraft Production (Mr. Arthur Woodburn):I should like to thank both the hon. Members for the very tolerant way in which they have raised their complaint this evening. On behalf of my Department and my Minister I should like to say that we do very much sympathise with them and other hon. Members who find the countryside being utilised for purposes associated with war. At the end of the war we had all hoped that that had finished for good. The conference of U.N.O. which has just come to an end has given us some hope that wars may be ended, but after the failure of our hopes at the end of the last war and the new war which came upon us, nobody can feel quite sure even now, that war is finished for good. Therefore, whether we like it or not, until such time as international security guarantees the rights of people, we must take some cognizance of the necessity for the defence of the country.
  For that reason we must not neglect the science of war. Science, research and development must go on. This Government consider that it is one of the essentials in the spending of our money power after the war that as little as possible should be spent on the manufacture of implements of war, but that on no account should we starve science, research and development, which will enable us to keep abreast with every possible weapon of war. The work at Westcott, if I might give the background of it, is concerned with experimental research and development. I think there is some misunderstanding as to how far the experiments at this station will go. The experiment is concerned with what used to be called the "doodle-bug" and the rocket.

  1269
  I can readily understand that people who have gone through the years of war never want to hear anything about guided projectiles in the form of "doodle-bugs" and rockets for the rest of their lives. Therefore, if they are picturing a neighbourhood which is going to be humming and buzzing with the throb of a "doodle-bug" passing over their heads, I can readily appreciate their apprehension. I assure hon. Members right away that no such thing is contemplated at this station. There is going to be no discharge or extensive use of certain projectiles from this station. What is going to be established at Westcott is a large-scale laboratory. The people who will occupy it will not be people who are sending projectiles but people who are studying the aerodynamics and the propulsion of projectiles. The two main parts are, of course, the jet engine and the body which is propelled. The experiments in regard to the jet engine will take place mainly on the bench. There will be certain noises when these jet engines are working, but even at the maximum these noises will not exist for longer than five minutes at any time.
  The other experiments will be on a very small scale with much less noise. None of the villages which are affected are within 1,000 yards of the establishment. Any noise which comes from these engines will be much the same as the whine which comes from the jet aeroplane. Only 15, or maybe 10 per cent, of the noise will reach Westcott, which is the nearest village. So far as the villages which are further away are concerned, only 5 per cent, of the noise will reach there. Even the noise will be reduced considerably, as far as we can see, by experiments which have already taken place and which are likely to diminish that noise and perhaps abolish it altogether.
  The body of the guided projectile will be experimented with largely in a wind tunnel where, instead of using air in which to try projectiles, we use an artificial wind in a tunnel to create the conditions which the projectile would experience in the air. That will take place inside a very large building and will make no noise whatsoever. It will create no disturbance in the neighbourhood.
  This experimental station is mainly occupied with these guided projectiles
  1270
  which might be used for war. It is worth while mentioning that there has never been any invention such as this has been that does not find a use in peace. It is a great step forward in man's conquest of the air. It is rather difficult to foresee the end of it. We have already seen a rocket travelling through the air about 3,600 miles per hour. That means a possibility, when rockets can reach America, of our being able to send a rocket from here to America in less than half an hour. The fact that this possibility exists means that we shall strive to make some use of it. I can foresee the time when a letter service between here and the States will be carried by means of a rocket which might have been developed primarily for purposes of war. It is interesting to note that although the Germans sent the first rockets here, we had been studying the question of such a rocket before the war started. I can only hope that, as the possibility of war recedes, the scientific experiments of this station will be devoted not to war, but to peace.
  Both hon. Members who spoke raised the question of the agricultural value of the district. I am glad to be able to assure them that, out of the 900 acres involved in this estate, 600 will continue to be cultivated. A great part of this area could not be cultivated now, because of the existence of the aerodrome. The expense of reconstructing it would be almost prohibitive, but 600 acres will be restored to agriculture. The Ministry have been able to make arrangements with farmers which will avoid any severance of holdings. The farming will be done by one farmer. The other farmers have accepted the offer of the Ministry, I am informed, and will receive adequate compensation.
  Our Ministry have consulted the Ministry of Town and Country Planning, the Ministry of Agriculture, and other Ministries concerned. I think hon. Gentlemen can accept my assurance that the Minister of Agriculture is very jealous of what remains of the agricultural land of this country. I can only say that he has accepted our proposition and is satisfied. The question whether some other part of the country could have been found or not must obviously be one of opinion. All I can say is that experts who are in charge of the job searched very diligently within

  1271
  reasonable range to find a suitable spot. It is not the distance from manufacturing areas which is the fault here, but because we have a large number of experimental stations which, while not doing this work, are doing analogous work. It is desirable that the scientists at this station Should be within easy reach and access of their colleagues in the other station.
  I am assured by our experts that they could find nowhere that was just quite as suitable as this district I can quite imagine Aylesbury people, and the people of my hon. Friend's constituency, feeling a bit worried in case the countryside.is going to be despoiled by this inrush of some manufacturing centre, but I feel sure that, if they went to Farnborough and saw the experimental station there, they would find no complaints from people there that such a station caused any dislocation of rural life or disturbed people in any way whatsoever
  I can give the assurance, on behalf of the Ministry, that, whatever the development of this station will be, it will not disturb the normal rural life in this area, or bring any blot upon the landscape, but will introduce into the area a lot of very desirable and charming people who will make their great contribution to the social life of Aylesbury and district. I think there is ho fear of Aylesbury people suffering in any way Housing is a problem, but it may be that the fact of the station going there may make some contribution
  1272
  to the solution of Aylesbury's housing problem, because it will have another ally, in addition to the rural district council, which is doing its best at the moment.
  So far as the Ministry is concerned, we will give a promise that, should there be any development which might alter the complexion of this station and bring about any disturbance of the people, we would willingly enter into consultation with the hon. Members and those interested to see whether some adjustment could be made. So far as we can see, there is no reason whatever why this station should ever develop any attribute other than that of a great laboratory of scientific investigation for the discovery of these new principles which may lead to world-changing developments in transport. No firing or explosions will take place in their districts. I sympathise very much with the hon. Gentlemen in their worry about this place, but, believe me, there is not one part of the country in which we put down any kind of station where somebody does not find difficulty in accepting it as the right place. I hope that, with this explanation, we shall have the good will of the people of Aylesbury when our scientific experimenters arrive in their district, and that they will welcome them and offer them every encouragement to get on with their work.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Eighteen Minutes to Ten o'Clock.

FOOD SUPPLIES
  Australian Offers
  Australian Offers
  Dried Apricots
  Dried Apricots
  Fruit and Vegetables, Scotland
  Fruit and Vegetables, Scotland
  Oversea Visits (Control of Exports)
  Oversea Visits (Control of Exports)
  Bread
  Bread
  Empire Sugar
  Empire Sugar
  Distribution, North Staffordshire
  Distribution, North Staffordshire
  Oil and Fat Imports
  Oil and Fat Imports
  Fish
  Fish
  Wheat and Rice
  Wheat and Rice
  Emergency Stocks
  Emergency Stocks
  Cheese (Special Rations)
  Cheese (Special Rations)
  Refrigerated Shipping
  Refrigerated Shipping
  South African Gift (Distribution)
  South African Gift (Distribution)
  Eggs and Poultry Food (Dollar Account)
  Eggs and Poultry Food (Dollar Account)
  Rations and Points Changes (Announcement)
  Rations and Points Changes (Announcement)
  Meat Quality, Birmingham
  Meat Quality, Birmingham
  Canary Tomatoes
  Canary Tomatoes
  Maple Peas
  Maple Peas
SOAP (DEREQUISITIONED PREMISES)
  SOAP (DEREQUISITIONED PREMISES)
  SOAP (DEREQUISITIONED PREMISES)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Empire Tobacco
  Empire Tobacco
  Woodstock Mill, Oldham
  Woodstock Mill, Oldham
  Hairdressers' Towels (Northern Ireland)
  Hairdressers' Towels (Northern Ireland)
  Household Goods (Coupons)
  Household Goods (Coupons)
  Raw Cotton (Stocks and Imports)
  Raw Cotton (Stocks and Imports)
  Aircraft Factory, Hillington (Re-allocation)
  Aircraft Factory, Hillington (Re-allocation)
  Football Jerseys (Clothing Coupons)
  Football Jerseys (Clothing Coupons)
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Demobilisation
  Demobilisation
  Airfields (Agricultural Land)
  Airfields (Agricultural Land)
  S.E.A.C. (Rations)
  S.E.A.C. (Rations)
  Radar Unit, India (Complaints)
  Radar Unit, India (Complaints)
  Slipway, Oban
  Slipway, Oban
  Accidents
  Accidents
  R.A.F. Delegation, France
  R.A.F. Delegation, France
  Labour Hall, Uxbridge
  Labour Hall, Uxbridge
  Personal Case
  Personal Case
  Missing Personnel (Research and Inquiry)
  Missing Personnel (Research and Inquiry)
  Hendon Airfield
  Hendon Airfield
  Oversea Tours
  Oversea Tours
  Spare Parts (France)
  Spare Parts (France)
  Airmen (Approach to M.Ps.)
  Airmen (Approach to M.Ps.)
  A.T.C. (Greatcoats)
  A.T.C. (Greatcoats)
CIVIL AVIATION
  Tudor Aircraft (Trials and Training)
  Tudor Aircraft (Trials and Training)
  Prestwick (Foreign Operators)
  Prestwick (Foreign Operators)
ROYAL NAVY
  Wives (Passage Concession)
  Wives (Passage Concession)
  Tank-landing Craft (Voyages)
  Tank-landing Craft (Voyages)
  Retired Officers (Leave)
  Retired Officers (Leave)
  Rosyth
  Rosyth
BRITISH ARMY
  Election Candidates (Leave)
  Election Candidates (Leave)
  Taranto Transit Camp
  Taranto Transit Camp
  Personal Case
  Personal Case
  COLONIAL MEDICAL SERVICE
  COLONIAL MEDICAL SERVICE
  AFRICAN COLONIES (MAIZE IMPORTS)
  AFRICAN COLONIES (MAIZE IMPORTS)
MALAYA
  Proposed Union (Representations)
  Proposed Union (Representations)
  Volunteer Forces
  Volunteer Forces
  Singapore (Disturbance)
  Singapore (Disturbance)
  CYPRUS (PUBLIC MEETINGS)
  CYPRUS (PUBLIC MEETINGS)
TANGANYIKA
  Immigration
  Immigration
  Land Alienation
  Land Alienation
SIERRA LEONE
  Gold Production
  Gold Production
  Teachers
  Teachers
  URANIUM AND THORIUM (EMPIRE RESERVES)
  URANIUM AND THORIUM (EMPIRE RESERVES)
  GERMANY (FOOD PRODUCTION)
  GERMANY (FOOD PRODUCTION)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Taxable Income
  Taxable Income
  Revenue and Expenditure (Scotland)
  Revenue and Expenditure (Scotland)
  Purchase Tax
  Purchase Tax
  U.S. Gifts (Customs Duties)
  U.S. Gifts (Customs Duties)
  GERMAN DOCUMENTS(PUBLICATION)
  GERMAN DOCUMENTS(PUBLICATION)
  RUMANIA (PALESTINE COMMISSION VISIT)
  RUMANIA (PALESTINE COMMISSION VISIT)
ROADS
  Local Omnibus Services
  Local Omnibus Services
  Isle of Lewis (Schemes)
  Isle of Lewis (Schemes)
  Hauliers (Vehicle Tonnage)
  Hauliers (Vehicle Tonnage)
  Haulage Industry (Nationalisation)
  Haulage Industry (Nationalisation)
  ROADS AND RAILWAYS (ACCIDENTS)
  ROADS AND RAILWAYS (ACCIDENTS)
SHIPPING
  (U.S. Collaboration)
  (U.S. Collaboration)
  s.s. "Thorland "
  s.s. "Thorland "
  PREFABRICATED PERMANENT HOUSES
  PREFABRICATED PERMANENT HOUSES
  NATIONAL INSURANCE (PUBLIC ASSISTANCE STAFF)
  NATIONAL INSURANCE (PUBLIC ASSISTANCE STAFF)
  REQUISITIONED PROPERTY
  REQUISITIONED PROPERTY
  POTATO PRICES
  POTATO PRICES
  ELECTRIC COOKERS
  ELECTRIC COOKERS
  DEMOBILISATION (PERSONAL CASE)
  DEMOBILISATION (PERSONAL CASE)
  SCOTLAND (HOUSING)
  SCOTLAND (HOUSING)
  HOUSE OF COMMONS" REFRESHMENT DEPARTMENT(WAGES)
  HOUSE OF COMMONS" REFRESHMENT DEPARTMENT(WAGES)
EDUCATION
  Teachers (Statistics)
  Teachers (Statistics)
  Junior Pupils, Reading
  Junior Pupils, Reading
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers

  LORD TOVEY.
  Admiral of the Fleet Sir John Cronyn Tovey, G.C.B., K.B.E., D.S.O., having been created Baron Tovey, of Langton Matravers, in the county of Dorset—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
  The Lord Belper—Took the Oath.

PREVENTION OF ROAD ACCIDENTS.
LORD HACKING: My Lords, I beg to ask the question which appears in my name on the Order Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether they will now publish the White Paper containing the comments and conclusions of the late Government on the Report of the House of Lords Select Committee regarding the prevention of road accidents, which Report was published in 1939.]
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, the noble Lord is under a misapprehension in thinking that the late Government prepared a White Paper on the Report of the House of Lords Select Committee on road accidents. In December, 1943, the then Minister of War Transport asked the Committee on Road Safety to review the recommendations of the Alness Report and to advise on those which should be adopted as measures of post-war policy for the reduction of accidents. The Committee on Road Safety presented an Interim Report in December, 1944, which was published, and a further Report is now being prepared.

FOOD SUPPLIES.
2.43 p.m.
LORD WOOLTONrose to draw attention to the statements of His Majesty's
758
Government regarding the Country's food supplies; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I placed this Motion on the Order Paper because I thought it was proper that the country should have an opportunity of hearing your Lordships' views on this urgent and national matter of food supplies. I hope that the debate will both give and get useful information. I know from fortunate experience the wealth of practical knowledge that your Lordships possess on this subject. During the time that I was in office, I never left your Lordships' House after one of the numerous food debates that we had without having received much information and many useful hints.
If I may say so, not least among your Lordships did I get these hints and that information from the noble Viscount who now leads the House. I should like to assure the Leader of the House that whilst we who sit on these Benches are indeed very critical of the present administration of food supplies, we hope so to conduct the debate as to keep it on the broadest lines of public interest and I do assure him that we do it without any thought of partizan advantage.
For the Minister of Food himself I have nothing but sympathy. In fact, I am very nearly as sorry for him as he appears to be for himself, because I observe that yesterday he said that he felt that he was the person who needed sympathy, and he has my sympathy. For here is a gentleman working under the greatest possible disadvantages. He is entrusted by the Prime Minister with the conduct of a large business organization involving the purchase and distribution of food to the extent of £660,000,000 per annum, food which he must secure in world markets. It is a very big job and on his ability to carry out that job every man, woman and child in this country depends for their sustenance and their health. It is a very big job and a very grave responsibility, but apparently it is not of sufficient importance in the eyes of his senior colleagues to justify his inclusion in the Cabinet. It may, indeed, have been some advantage to him, of course, to be free from the discussions which must have been the preoccupation of the Cabinet in these recent months—these conversations about how the economic structure of our society should be altered and improved—

759
but whilst the Cabinet have been planning the new world in which we are to live, we seem to have been allowed to slip into a position in which we may have insufficient food to maintain our life and our health.
He is a Minister without Cabinet rank, a Minister who is only called in on occasions—I was not a Cabinet Minister—and a Minister who is only called in on occasions is in very poor shape to stand up for his job and speak up for it against the preoccupations of more highly placed Ministers. Especially is he in a very poor position indeed to stand up for his rights to the Treasury. I believe that Sir Ben Smith ought never to have been asked to take office under these conditions. The Minister of Food should have full Cabinet rank. What can be more important? for on him lies the responsibility of seeing that the Government fulfil what is surely one of their primary responsibilities. In these days, when currency and shipping and imports remain controlled, in these regrettable circumstances when the initiative of the private trader who used to go all over the world finding our food supplies is hamstrung, no office could be more important than that of the man on whom we depend for the sufficiency of our daily bread. The position is one which calls for administrative competence based on commercial knowledge and it requires all the support and prestige of high Cabinet rank. I noticed last night with alarm that in spite of the expressed doubts of the Government as to their ability to feed us as we should consider properly in these times, the Leader of the House repeated the determination of the Government to depend in future on Government bulk buying of food supplies.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISON): I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but I did not do anything of the kind. What I said was in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, with regard to our policy in regard to the Dominions. I said that in our view our reliance on bulk purchase from the Dominions would adequately maintain their position as food suppliers, but the noble Lord knows perfectly well that this country buys food from all parts of the world. I was only referring to the main-
760
tenance of our policy in regard to the Dominions.
LORD WOOLTON: I should be very relieved if I could be told that His Majesty's Government did not propose, as the Minister of Food said and as I thought the Leader of the House supported last night, that the Government should be the purchaser of food supplies in the future, because there is nothing in their present position to justify them having that self-confidence in themselves or in assuming that they can undertake such a grave responsibility. A good deal of criticism has been levelled at the Government recently on the score that they have not taken the country sufficiently into their confidence. That is a criticism which has been levelled at them a good deal. With great respect to those who have made the criticism, I do not think that that is the major issue. I acknowledge very willingly the help that the public will give to a Minister when they are informed about what he is trying to do; but the first duty of a Minister of Food is to get food for the country. It is stocks anti not public relations that come first. If one source of supply dries up then it is the business of the Minister to find another source of supply or else alternatively, to find some substitute for the food he has failed to get.
Until we get back to the state in which the merchants and the importers are given freedom to use their initiative and to trade, the Government has the whole responsibility for securing adequate supplies. I well remember telling the supply departments of the Ministry of Food that every time they came to me to advise me to ration a commodity they must come in a spirit of humility, recognizing that they had failed in their job of securing supplies, and that what they were doing was asking me to use the power I had to deprive the country of some of their freedom. It was a very harsh doctrine for a Minister to give to his Department, but it was a very salutory one. The conditions of war made both rationing and scarcity inevitable. What were those conditions? I ask you to compare them with present-day conditions. Firstly, there was the U-boat campaign which in a month sank supplies we had obtained to the extent of hundreds of thousands of tons. Then there was the shortage of shipping consequential on sinkings and on the demands on

761
transport for munitions and for the movement of troops. Thirdly, there were the long voyages that our ships had to make and the very slow turn-round of them in congested ports on our western shores. Those were very difficult times, but we got over them.
Now we hear of a series of world misfortunes emanating from the weather. There has been snow in Spain, said Sir Ben Smith yesterday. There has been drought in Australia, in Africa and in the Argentine. Well, local droughts are very unfortunate, but they are not without precedent, and the question I would ask is: What has been the effect of these droughts? Why has it suddenly become an urgent problem for the people of this country? Are these unhappy facts of nature being used as an alibi for lack of foresight in getting in supplies earlier on? Again, we are told that there has been a failure of the Indian cereal crop. This is the second failure of the Indian cereal crop in very recent years, so there is nothing very unusual about that. But it is one of the things against which prudent administrators insure. They insure against it by having other sources of supply available.
When we were in danger of a rice shortage during the war, because we did not get rice from Burma and did not get it from Siam, we sent over to Brazil to encourage the Brazilian rice planters, by giving them, large orders, to develop their production, and that was why we were able to maintain our supplies—not very good supplies, let me confess—of rice during the war, but we did maintain our supplies. I ask what this Government has done to increase rice production. I ask them whether they have approached Egypt, I ask them whether they have approached Brazil, for production is the solution of the whole problem of food supplies, and variations in production are something for which the competent administrator plans.
Now I come to the wheat position. I ask what are the facts? I ask the Government to tell us frankly: Has the drought really anything to do with British sources of supply of wheat? I ask them to tell us what is the present position. During the war, in spite of the U-boats, we kept in this country a minimum of fourteen weeks' supply of wheat and flour. When we were preparing for military operations
762
in North Africa or for the landing in Normandy, which temporarily took all our ships, then we worked up our stocks to nineteen weeks. I ask the Government two questions about our wheat and flour supplies. Firstly, I ask them whether Canada has not now sufficient wheat and flour in stock to meet all our needs? Secondly, I ask them to tell us how many weeks' stock they had three months ago when this danger first became apparent. I ask them to tell us how many weeks' stock they have now.
Let me say this, in view of some of the criticism that has been levelled against the Government on the subject of bread. I do not think the public health is going to suffer in the least from an increased extraction rate of flour. I think it is a matter of public taste that is involved and not a matter of public health. I am, however, concerned about one step that is consequent upon this increased extraction rate of flour. I hoped that we were going to increase considerably our home production of pigs and poultry and, consequently, of eggs. We have great need of these things. We have, in fact, encouraged the farmers to embark on this course, and the failure of feeding stuffs is going to be very hard on the farmers as well as consequentially very hard on the public. Therefore I ask the Government what steps they have taken to import maize from the Argentine to meet this pressing need. In another place, Mr. Eden asked the Minister of Food for this information, but, probably due to the pressure of many questions in debate, he did not get the information, so I ask for it now.
I am informed that the Argentine has ceased to use maize to fuel their railway engines as a result of having got some supplies of oil. I am told they have ample supplies of maize to meet our needs, and I ask: Are we going to import maize to feed our livestock? I ask: Can the farmers of this country rely upon getting these supplies? That is the sort of information that the public wants. I noticed recently a statement in the newspapers that we are going to export to the Continent 2,000,000 young chickens. I have had some difficulty lately in getting chicken, and I wonder if we might ask the Government just what this means. I know they have no responsibility for things which appear

763
in the newspapers, but, if the information is true, I ask diem to tell us what it means. Have we a surplus of chickens? I wish I knew where they were. Or is it the fact that Belgium is better off for feeding stuffs than we are, that they can do what we cannot do? I hear some very good accounts of the way Belgium is restoring her standard of living. In fact I noticed last night that Belgium is advertising for tourists with this very attractive advertisement: "There is no food shortage in Belgium."
Now I come to the question of fats, and here I must quite frankly, I think, in fairness admit some prejudice; I think that this subject is so important. I went to much trouble to study the conditions in Germany towards the close of the last war. I was led to the conclusion that it was shortage of fats that undermined the health and morale of the German people at that time. In this war I fortified myself with the best scientific information that I could get, and I then, on that advice—and I do not think the noble Viscount, who has more claims than I have to talk on scientific matters, will dissent from me—determined that eight ounces of fat per person per week represented the minimum on which the people of this country could maintain their health and their working power. I still retain that belief. The only occasion on which Sir Ben Smith asked me to come and see him, I pledged him my support on two conditions: one was—and I will come to this later—that he did not feed the people of Europe or anyone else at the expense of our already low minimum standard of rationing in this country; and the second was that he would maintain a minimum rationing of eight ounces of fat per person per week. If he failed on either of those two factors, then I concluded that his administration would fail.
In order to keep up the fat ration, it is necessary to look around a great deal. The failure of Indian supplies of ground nuts—ground nuts are used for making margarine, in case your Lordships do not know what your margarine is made of—is nothing that comes like a bolt from the blue. It has happened before. I very well remember sending to my noble friend Viscount Swinton, when he was Resident Minister in Africa, a message telling him that our fat ration was in great danger, and I asked him to beg the native
764
chiefs of West Africa to come to our rescue by gathering more ground nuts. Well, his Lordship made great excursions. He had many very impressive palavers with the chiefs. I must say I almost envied him the dramatic position in which, in a great white 'plane, he came down to the native chiefs. It must have been a great occasion. He begged them to help us. I very well remember the joy with which I heard that the native chiefs had sent a message of loyalty to the Crown and had pledged themselves to meet our-deficiency. They were as good as their word. They sent us over 200,000 tons extra of ground nuts.
But the deficiency was not urgent and immediate; it was a prospective deficiency. It was something that I feared might happen, not something that had happened—it was more than six months off. I ask the Government, were they foolish enough to rely for their fat ration upon the elusive habits of the whales in the Antarctic? We are told that the whaling season has been a bad one. They ought not to have relied on that source. I am quite sure—and I speak with all seriousness on this matter—that it is not beyond human power and inventiveness to maintain for the people of this country this minimum and meagre fat ration of eight ounces on which I believe we depend for our health.
I think your Lordships would like to be told to what extent our food supplies are dependent upon the decisions of the Combined Food Board in Washington, and whether the United States of America, which is represented on that Combined Food Board, is making proportionate cuts in her domestic consumption of fats. When Mr. Attlee appointed a woman doctor as Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food—a lady who, by the way, when out of office, had talked a great deal of the health of the nation, as she was entitled to do as a woman doctor—I was very greatly encouraged. I thought she, at any rate, would refuse to remain in a Department whose performance endangered the health of the nation, and I was disappointed that she, who had the knowledge, failed to convince either her Minister or her Department of the importance of this factor of fats.
If the Government were now to concentrate all their efforts on providing food

765
for the people of this country, I believe they could fulfil their election pledges of a higher standard of living and of a greater variety in our food. I believe that they can get more meat for us, I believe they can get considerably more fruit, and I want to be assured that, at the very least, we can rely upon adequate supplies of orange juice and halibut oil to meet the demands of the infant welfare centres, so that the health of our children, maintained in war, is not impaired in peace. I ask them for information on this question, of which I have given notice, and I do know this: that nobody will be more sympathetic to that desire than the noble Viscount who leads this House.
Now I want to ask another question. Why is it that when the Prime Minister of this country cables to Australia asking for their help with our food supplies he gets an immediate response? What does it mean? To me it means only one thing: it means that the supplies were there and available, and if it had been done six months ago or even three months ago, we should not be in the position in which we are now. Australia and New Zealand have rendered very great and magnificent service to us. We no longer are in the position, as we were, of having to ask them to feed large American armies in the Pacific. Why cannot we get that meat that they used to send? What was the figure?—300,000 tons, or something like that, I remember. Cannot we get that meat that they used to send to the troops in the Pacific? Why cannot we get it here to improve our meat ration? We are very greatly in need of an increase in the meat ration. Why are we not getting it? What are the difficulties? I ask the noble Lord who replies to tell us, if it is transport that is the trouble, whether there is some failure in our transport organization. Are we short of ships? Where are all the ships we had in such abundance during the war?
Then I ask for information about the dried egg position. What really did happen? I suggest that what happened was that some British or American officials in Washington, impressed by the dollar position, decided that we could do without these dried eggs which every housewife in the county wants. The trouble I took to try to make housewives like dried egg when I was in office! Never one word of praise did I hear from them, until Sir Ben Smith said he was going to take
766
dried eggs away. I suggest that the officials in Washington just got a bit misled as to what the feelings of the British housewife were on the subject. Perhaps if the British housewives had praised the eggs a little more when they got them, the British officials would not have been misled. And I suggest that the British officials got very considerable support from the Treasury representatives who were looking at the dollar position.
We hear of many reasons why we cannot have dried eggs. We hear that they are both expensive and scarce, but in America they are advertising dried eggs as being good for chicken feed. Therefore they cannot be so scarce, and I do not know whether they are expensive or not. The dried egg story as told by the Government leaves me unconvinced. If you are making excuses it is a very good rule to have only one and not a bunch. However, I gather that in spite of all the excuses we are still going to have the dried eggs. In the face of a very proper public protest the excuses are vanishing; we shall get the eggs, but the public will not be quite so convinced next time they hear all the excuses. We are going to get the eggs, and apparently we are going to get American films as well. For my part I put more food before films. I wonder whether those civil servants in well-fed Washington had not better come home for a spell so that they may see the conditions of life here and what is the standard of living of the ordinary people of this country. I hope the Minister will buy a considerable number of copies of this week's Punch and send them to the officials in Washington so that they may see the cartoon which appears.
In far away Washington I believe they are looking, as perhaps is their duty, at the world position, but I beg the Government not to be too internationally minded on the food front. Britain comes first with the people of this country, and I know it comes first with the Government. I beg them not too readily to accept the depressing statistics that emanate from the Combined Food Board in Washington as to the needs of Europe. I ask this as a direct question, of which I have given notice: How much food have we sent out of this country to Europe? I am not lacking in sympathy for the people of Europe, but it was only a few months ago that the people of this country were making observations about the general unworthiness of

767
the German people because, at very great expense to British life and the Treasury, we were forced to struggle to victory in a war which they had provoked. Now that we are at peace human instinct prompts us to succour the needy among our late enemies. But how needy are they? You know they tricked us after the last war.
These globular figures about the European position are apt to be very deceptive. Where are the cereals that the German people used to produce, and where are the cereals they are now producing? Have they gone to Russia? Are the Powers who are jointly controlling ex-enemy territory at the present time jointly contributing from the production of the soil they are occupying, or are we being called upon to feed the starving German people whilst the Russians take to themselves, and exclusively, the products of the parts of Europe they are now occupying? I make no statement on this subject, but I do ask for information from the Government.
I believe that the Government, with all their stories of gloom and misfortune, are really misjudging the psychology of the country. Sir Stafford Cripps is urging us to export in order that we may have more food, and of course we want more food. Meanwhile the stocks of women's clothing, which they have not the coupons to buy, are filling the warehouses. Mr. Shinwell is nationalizing the mines in order that we shall get more coal for the future, but meanwhile we are enduring the present winter, and sickness and absenteeism are growing because we have not sufficient coal to keep us warm. We are not going to have sufficient fat, and Mr. Dalton is rejoicing in the fact that the people of this country now own the Bank of England. The people of this country are realists; they want more clothes and they want more food. These quite simple things of life are what they have been wanting for six years. These things can be found, and, if they are found, the productive capacity of the country will, I believe, go up very considerably indeed.
Increased food production here and overseas and foresight about what we shall need are the keys to our present problems and our present discontent. It is strange how this Government of the proletariat is becoming in a very few
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months divorced from the people, and seemingly unable to take note of the simple wants of the people. I hope I have not been unduly critical of gentlemen on whom very great burdens rest. I have tried, with such experience as I have had on these problems, to point the way to a solution of our troubles and to indicate ways of concentrating on getting supplies, and getting them well ahead of the time when they are needed for consumption. I do not imagine that His Majesty's Government require any help from me, and they have certainly never asked for it. I pray that they may succeed in their effort; I pray that they will give to the people of this country the standard of living which they deserve—the standard of living which, having regard to their record through the last few years, they have so richly earned. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
3.19 p.m.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, I notice that the noble Lord opened his speech with the assurance that he was not going to make hostile comments but that he was going to put the facts before us with entire impartiality. I fully expected, when he said so, that we should hear, shall I say, an amiable and constructive contribution to the solution of the problems with which we are confronted. All I have to say is that if the noble Lord's speech is the pattern of amiability I was led to understand it would be, then I still have something to learn as to the meaning of the term. But for all that, when he said that this Government of the proletariat was becoming divorced from the support of the people, or words to that effect—
LORD WOOLTON: I said the "needs of the people."
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I do not know, I am sure, that we need object to it being described as a Government of the proletariat; that is what we have elections for.
LORD WOOLTON: Quite right.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I do not see any signs of the divorce either appearing in the recent by-elections, and so far as that is concerned I would say that that is a sort of aside which has little relation to the grave subject which is before us. Might I, however, just comment on one

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or two observations before I come to deal with the facts of the case on which the noble Lord is clearly entirely uninformed? He pointed out with great emphasis that in his view a Minister of Food should be a member of the Cabinet. Well, there is a great deal to be said for this; but the noble Lord himself, when he was Minister of Food, was not a member of the Cabinet.
LORD WOOLTON: But I was, as a matter of fact.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: No, excuse me, the noble Lord became a member of the Cabinet when he was Minister of Reconstruction.
LORD WOOLTON: The noble Viscount must allow me to know what I was a member of. I took great care to know what I was a member of, and I know that I was not a member of the War Cabinet. The noble Viscount, who led the Opposition at that time, should be better informed.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I know there were various metamorphoses in the Cabinet dispositions during the course of the war. The noble Lord was a Minister of Cabinet rank and so is the present Minister of Food. But I think it would be fair to say that he argued he should be in a position of the highest authority and that it meant that he himself must have been dissatisfied with the position that he himself occupied because he was not in the War Cabinet and because he was not in, what shall we say, the circle which finally controlled policy. As far as that again is concerned, it appears to me to be an aside which has no relation whatever to the present situation. Then the noble Lord said that this Government was allowing the country to slip into a position in which people would not have enough to eat, or words to that effect. Now, I cannot help stating that it is appropriate to remind the noble Lord that the positions are a little different from what they were when he was Minister of Food. I will point to one or two of those differences.
When the noble Lord was Minister of Food there was Lend-Lease; he could buy as much as ever he liked; there was a bottomless purse to dip into without any question whatever. At that time, too, as he tells us, quite fairly, he was contending with grave dangers from sinkings.
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True; that is what he was contending against. But at that time his Government, in fact, all the Governments of the world, were not confronted with a position such as prevails at the present time where the whole of Europe is wanting food, where India and China and vast populations in Africa and elsewhere are clamouring for their share of what supplies there are. I would not minimize for a moment the grave difficulties with which the Government during the war, as we all know, was confronted, but the concentration then of such shipping as could escape the submarines was to bring supplies to this country. There was no claim on the available supplies from a hungry world as there is now.
It was a very different position in those days. So far as that is concerned the noble Lord's task was almost easy as compared with the present position. I will give the facts in a minute. Now there have been some recent changes in the position which your Lordships should realize. In the first place, of course, the harvests of the northern hemisphere cannot be estimated until September, October or a little after that; in some other countries they cannot be estimated until December or January or round about that time; so that the misfortunes from which the world has suffered during the past six months and to which the noble Lord made no reference whatever, have had, of course a determining effect upon the food position. There has been a drought in Africa; South Africa, to which I shall come back in a few minutes, has never been in such a perilous food position as it finds itself in to-day. There has been a failure of the monsoon in India, or in a large part of it, and floods in other parts; there has been an unprecedented drought in North Africa and there are no supplies available from the great Danube grain-producing areas which were, of course, available in former times.
Let me give one or two of the figures. When the noble Lord, or his colleague, was in office last year the actual stocks available of cereals (this is July, 1945) were estimated to be 22,918,000 tons, but the fact is that in the December estimates the actual figures were 12,000,000 and not 22,000,000. That means that the available world supplies were enormously less than had been anticipated. It was nobody's fault. It was not even the

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fault of this Government of the proletariat who had nothing whatever to do with it. Therefore I suggest that the noble Lord is not being quite fair when he said that it is our fault. Then, at the same time, we have to remember what are the demands which have been brought before the world during the last six months and which were not previously anticipated. Here let me say that it is not open to us, and it was not open to the Government even in the noble Lord's time, simply to take everything there is and bring it into this country.
The noble Lord himself was responsible for the establishment of the Combined Food Board, and the Combined Food Board is responsible for the allocation of what supplies there are. Therefore it is not within our powers, even if we had the dollars, to help ourselves in the free and easy manner that the noble Lord suggests to what production there is available. Now let me give another illustration of the increased demand. Since December, the estimated requirements of India for wheat, owing to the failure of its own food production—this is up to January 15th—had increased to the extent of 1,013,000 tons, an entirely unforeseen increase in the Indian demand for wheat; and we have had similar increases in other parts of the world. But you cannot simply calmly stand aside and ignore these terrible facts.
Let me give one or two other illustrations. The noble Lord referred, for instance, to what was being done about rice, and he referred us to Brazil. I have got the figures about rice here; we have been taking a lot of trouble about rice. Let us look and see what the figures are. The world needs of rice, as estimated for the current year, are 6,136,000 tons; those are the world needs in rice. The available supplies anticipated are 3,070,000 tons, so that there appears to be a world demand for rice of more than 3,000,000 which there seems to be no rice in sight to satisfy. Now we will look at the noble Lord's source of supply. The total production of rice for export from Brazil is 100,000 tons, and the world deficiency is 3,000,000 tons. What is the good of referring us to Brazil?
LORD WOOLTON: Egypt also, I asked you about.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: The production of Egypt for export is 120,000 tons; the two together are 220,000 tons; the world deficiency is 3,000,000 tons. The noble Lord really should think about these things with a little bit more care before he makes these slipshod statements.
LORD WOOLTON: I did not make slipshod statements at all. I asked you for information.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: No, no; you were accusing us because we have not looked to Brazil for rice. The place where rice is more plentiful than anywhere else is Siam. At the present time it is estimated that there are 1,200,000 tons of rice somewhere in the interior of Siam. The problem is how to get it; that is the difficulty. There was an arrangement made, for which the noble Lord's colleagues were responsible, and to which we were a party, under which over a million tons of free rice were to be delivered up by the producers of Siam as reparations. It is all very well to prescribe these things in a document in London or Yalta, or somewhere else, but it is a very different thing to get the rice. The rice producers in the interior of Siam have hung on to their rice; that is what has actually happened, and they have still got most of it. The amount of rice which it has been possible to extract from Siam (because that is where the big supply is) is very small comparatively.
The free rice which was to be obtained as reparation from Siam was, of course, to be paid for and dealt with by the Siamese Government, but unfortunately you have got a Government in Siam that does not seem to be able to deliver the goods. I am not complaining of the present Government in Siam, but that appears to be the unfortunate fact. That is why we are now sending out a special organization to Siam. We have modified the provisions which the previous Government arrived at with regard to free rice; we are sending out goods which the rice producers in Siam will wish to buy in order that they may be induced to part with their rice, because the Siamese peasant producer is not disposed to part with his rice unless he can get something in exchange for it which he dunks is worth having. That is the problem which we are now setting up a considerable organization in Siam to help to deal with

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The place to go to for rice is Siam, and not Brazil, because that is where the rice is.
So far as that is concerned, I can say with complete confidence that we are making exceedingly strenuous efforts to obtain the supplies of rice which India and other countries so sorely need; and nobody would be more glad than we should be if some rice were made available to the British housewife. Those are the actual facts with regard to the rice situation, and the circumstances of this post-war time make it such that the operations of the Combined Food Board and other organizations to satisfy the demand of all the world to get their hunger satisfied, which was all cloaked in time of war, make the circumstances of the times completely different.
The noble Lord suggested that what we have got to do is to let the merchants be free, and, if they were, they would do it for us. That was not the way he operated anyhow, and I cannot think now that it would be possible to cover these immense world deficiencies by any manipulations of that kind. I would much rather trust to the skill and experienced operations of the Combined Food Board, which does not consist of over-fed officials in Washington, but consists of capable business men who are doing their best to serve the world needs. I think it is very improper for the noble Lord to suggest that they consist mainly, or to some considerable extent, of over-fed officials in Washington. That is the kind of cheap sneer you might get in a ha'penny Press.
LORD WOOLTON: Of course I did not say it.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I am not going to let the noble Lord off.
LORD WOOLTON: But you might quote me correctly.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: That was the suggestion, that they were being fed very comfortably in Washington, and in fact did not appreciate these things. I resent that. They are not red-tape officials, either. They are practically all of them experienced business men who have been doing all they can to help. I would like to say just a word about this fat ration. I know that, because of the failure of the crops and our inability to have diverted to this country sufficient fat-producing materials, we were unfortunately obliged
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to reduce the fat ration by one ounce a week and we all regret it, of course. The noble Lord said that his standard was that it should be eight ounces a week; the Ministry of Health required it; that was his standard. When this Government came in it is true that for a short time we did put it up to eight ounces but eventually we had to go back to seven ounces.
LORD LLEWELLIN: The fat ration, it is quite true, was put down by myself to seven ounces a week. I made an arrangement when I was in Washington, over the whole period up to June 30 next, and there was not enough fat for us to have had the eight ounces on all the year round. Wisely perhaps from a political view, but rightly I am certain from a nutritional point of view, I decided it ought to go down to seven ounces when people had more vegetables in the summer months. I had left enough to keep it at eight ounces for the rest of the year, for the whole of this winter period. I disliked doing it and I dislike the fact that my successors have had to do it now. I did hope that at any rate for the winter months we should keep this very vital ration up to eight ounces.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I am not in the least complaining of the noble Lord. I fully believe that he did what he did with immense regret; he was compelled to do it, because the stuff was not there. I am sure he did, and I for one never raised a word of protest at the time and I have never done so since. All I am commenting on is that the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, has charged the Government with reducing it, which we have done because there was not the stuff there, unfortunately, in the winter months. I wish we had not had to do it. All I have to say is that it would have made the work of the Government easier if he had addressed his exhortations to his colleagues of the Government at the time. It would be more appropriate than addressing them to us.
There are one or two other points upon which I should like to comment with regard to supplies available for export. Our friends in Canada; as everyone knows, when it was realized what shortages there were in different parts of the world responded nobly to our appeal, and so did the people of Australia. But it is not simply a question of supplies being in a country; it is a matter of getting

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supplies to the ports, of getting them moved to the ports. That applies practically to all countries—certainly to Canada, the United States of America and the Argentine. Let me say a word here about the Argentine, to which the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, has already referred. Great efforts have been made to get increased quantities of maize from the Argentine, and the country that needs them very badly indeed is South Africa. Now to get maize from the Argentine you have first to get the supplies moved down to the ports, and it was quite evident that the supplies, though abundant in the interior of the country, were not available for export. So what have we done? We have inquired into the causes of this apparent hold-up. First it became clear that there was a shortage of internal transport. That meant that there were shortages of petrol, tyres, vehicles—
A NOBLE LORD: And railway wagons?
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I am speaking of road transport particularly. The United States of America, in co-operation with ourselves, have made arrangements for greatly increased supplies—and these things have already been sent—of tyres, tractors, petrol, oil and all the rest, in order to facilitate the moving of maize to the ports.
Let me mention, too, that South Africa has sent as much coal as she can to the Argentine in order to get maize in exchange. Very great efforts have been, and are being, made to get maize from the Argentine. I would refer further to the needs of our friends in South Africa. We, here, put the people of this country first—of course we do just as much as does the noble Lord, Lord Woolton. Our people have suffered enough, and if there were the supplies available in the world they would certainly have them and much more abundantly than they have got them now. But we have sometimes to look a little beyond our own shores. We have had most urgent appeals from South Africa for increased supplies. As a matter of fact, had it not been for the action that has recently been taken, there would not have been enough wheat in South Africa to make a bread loaf in the first week in April. We have had to divert cargo that would have come here to South Africa. Quite right too. We
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have no better friends in the world than the South Africans.
LORD WOOLTON: Hear, hear.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: It is no good the noble Lord cheering me for saying that we have done that and asserting, at the same time, that we have neglected our own people. We have to consider other people. That is what we are trying to do. The world situation is exceedingly perilous at the present time, and we have to do the best we can in exceedingly difficult circumstances. I could give your Lordships a very large number of other illustrations, but I do not think that they are particularly called for, so I will now try to give the noble Lord answers to his questions, a copy of which he was good enough to supply to me in advance. First he asks about the actual tonnage of cereals due to come to this country: what actual tonnage has been lost by drought and what percentage does this represent? I have given your Lordships the gross figures. The main losses are of supplies from North Africa, India and South Africa. At the present time the import demands of those countries, together, for supplies that they are now wanting is 8,000,000 tons. Has not Canada sufficient wheat and flour in stock to supply our needs? No, it is subject to the allocation of the Food Board. Canada sends us every ounce she can, and she is making immense sacrifices in order to supply us. The prospective contribution of Canada for the coming year is 6,268,000 tons. I am sure that she will send us every ounce that she can ship.
The next question was: What steps are the Government taking to import maize front the Argentina to meet the need for foodstuffs for cattle and poultry? I have answered that, and if the noble Lord can invent any method for speeding up the transit of supplies from the interior to the ports and then get them to this country from the ports—not to other countries to which the people of the Argentine might prefer to sell them—he will render us a great service. We recognize that, unfortunately, the increase of the extraction will deprive poultry and pigs of considerable quantities of feeding stuffs. That is a most deplorable thing, but, of course, increased extraction of the wheat saves a very large tonnage of supplies. It has been done for that purpose, and we are all

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glad, I am sure, that President Truman has stated in America that the extraction rate is to be raised from 70 to 80 per cent. in order to provide more supplies. The noble Lord asked me to give a statement of our supplies. That I must decline to do. He, himself, never gave a specific statement of the supplies in stock nor shall I.
LORD WOOLTON: I do not press for it.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: We know that if, in any particular case—and no one knows it better than Lord Woolton—you give an indication of any shortage of stocks, you immediately precipitate a run on the shops, so I do not propose to make any statement about that.
LORD WOOLTON: I am quite content.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: The noble Lord further asked: Can we get adequate supplies of orange juice and halibut oil? There are adequate supplies, I am glad to say, of orange juice for young people. The quantity of halibut oil available is not quite so generous, but supplies are adequate, I am happy to state. What steps have we taken in regard to selling 2,000,000 chicks to Europe? That is another of these fairy tales. There was an application by U.N.R.R.A. for 2,000,000 young chicks for Europe from this country and we have refused to supply them. That is the answer to that.
Another question was, now that we are no longer asking Australia and New Zealand to feed the American Armies in the Pacific why not get the supplies here? We are getting more from Australia, but since December there has been an increase in India's requirements for wheat alone by 1,000,000 tons and the position with regard to rice is even worse. That is why we are trying to make special efforts to get rice out of Siam. He also asked to what extent our food supplies depend upon the decisions of the Combined Food Board in Washington. It is much the same as it was in the noble Lord's time. Finally, the noble Lord asked me how much food had been sent to Europe. The total amount of food sent to Europe from D-Day to the end of 1945 was 1¼ million tons and I can assure the noble Lord that he would not have been any more hard hearted than some of us have
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been when we have received the applications from U.N.R.R.A. U.N.R.R.A. is confronted with immense populations, large numbers of them on a ration not much more than half of our own and many not quite half the calorific value of our own, and the pressure on us has been very great indeed. But I am sure the noble Lord would not have been more obstinate in safeguarding our supplies than we have been in respect of these requests. I know that we are confronted with immense difficulties. With the greatest respect to the noble Lord (although I shall appeal in vain), I think the catastrophe which has overwhelmed the world in this respect is quite unprecedented and is not a matter which should be brought in and out of which Party capital should be made. Whilst I quite agree that in many ways very likely some things could have been presented more tactfully—and I agree that the noble Lord was a master of the art, and he did it in very special circumstances—the noble Lord was not confronted with a world pulling all ways apart as it is now, with everybody clamouring for supplies and everybody being hungry and trying to get food. It is an entirely different state of affairs. I suggest that the noble Lord did not make sufficient allowance for that.
3.52 p.m.
LORD CHERWELL: My Lords, I do not propose to discuss the details which the noble Viscount who leads the House has just raised in answering Lord Woolton. I am content to rest on the fact that while Lord Woolton was Minister of Food the country did very well even in days of war and now in days of peace we are not getting the alleviation that we all thought we had the right to expect. The point which strikes me about the present position is the suddenness with which this emergency seems to have overwhelmed us. We are told that we have a battle for food, that we are facing an economic Dunkirk and all sorts of similar phrases. We know how Dunkirk came about; the Germans broke through at Sedan and we were forced into a corner. What I am unable to find out, and I am afraid the very interesting speech of the noble Viscount the Leader of the House has not cleared it up, is what broke the food-line on this occasion. I have carefully read the

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debate in another place and although there was a good deal of general conversation and a great deal of the kind of broadcasting of the "Woe, Woe" type which the Italians used to indulge in, there was no real explanation given or figures given which I think were satisfactory.
The noble Lord tells us that we are faced with a hungry world. We have always had a hungry world. What I want are some definite facts and figures. When the Government published a note of statistics I had hoped that at last the whole question would be elucidated, but quite frankly I found those statistics more mystifying than ever. I know that statistics are a dull line of approach, and that it is a much more telling thing in a debate to say that I had seen a man in a train who told me he had seen a child pick a crust out of the gutter. One can always find that sort of thing. I might speak of an incident which occurred to-day when on my way to London a woman rushed into the street and nearly caused an accident by trying to pick up a piece of wood. This sort of thing depends on what you are looking for. Mrs. Roosevelt, who is a lady of great experience and certainly not lacking in tenderness for any form of hardship, said that she found that the children in Germany were better fed than in this country and a U.N.O. official said something of the same sort the other day.
I think we are entitled to have facts and figures. If the case of the Government is good, and I am not saying that it is or that it is not, we ought to have these facts and figures. Let us consider the grain situation. Three quarters of the world's calories are derived from grain. Four hundred and fifty million tons of grain are grown in the world every year and that is enough to give everyone 1,900 calories a day. It is only in the last century when the United Kingdom started producing manufactures on a large scale for export and importing food, that a new era started where we got large populations dependent upon the imports of food. There are roughly four countries which export grain or, rather, wheat, and they are Canada, Australia, the United States and the Argentine. In all these countries except the United States the export of food is a business.
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It is not as though we were getting only the marginal amount of food that is left over when the harvest is good and none when it is bad. These countries depend on their export of food. The amount which is exported does not depend very greatly on the harvest. It depends, shall we say, roughly in linear relation to the harvest. Harvests all over the world hardly alter more than 15 per cent per acre. I went through the statistics of the United States for the last thirty or forty years. There was scarcely one occasion when the harvest varied by more than 15 per cent. We cannot therefore regard it as likely that on this one occasion the harvest everywhere should have dropped by some colossal amount. I do not believe the total amount available for export is so very much less than it usually is.
Coming to the importing countries, far and away the biggest grain and wheat importing country in the world was the United Kingdom. In 1936 the United Kingdom imported 5,500,000 tons of wheat out of 7,800,000 tons imported into Europe altogether. Two-thirds of the wheat imported into Europe came to the United Kingdom. In 1938 it was 5,500,000 out of 9,400,000 tons. In 1938 admittedly Germany imported over 1,000,000 tons. If they imported something like that amount we may justly imagine, in my view that they did this with a view to storage in case of a war which they thought quite likely to come about. If it had been an ordinary peacetime year it would have been different. The United Kingdom imported by far the greater proportion of the actual wheat exported to Europe in 1936.
If we look at this picture we find a steady import of about 5,500,000 to the United Kingdom, all the other countries just getting marginal amounts to compensate at normal harvests, and I think we ought to be told, and are entitled to be told, whence comes this sudden demand? Which countries are demanding this huge amount of wheat? How much are they asking? What is being allocated to them? I looked into a statistical document that was published hoping to find something of interest and explanation. The only thing I found there was that before the Indian and South African troubles arose the demands for wheat were 17,000,000 tons in six months. The United Kingdom in the first

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half of 1945 only got 2,000,000. Whether we shall get as much this time, I do not know. Who is it that requires the other 15,000,000? What is it wanted for? I know we shall be told that we have got to feed the starving millions of Europe.
The noble Master of Balliol, who I believe is to speak today, had a letter today in The Times explaining that there were 100,000,000 who would be getting not more than 1,500 calories a day and 40,000,000 that were to get less than 2,000 calories. I wonder whether the Master of Balliol has really worked out those figures. Supposing they are true—I am not sure that they are—how much would you need to give everyone of the 100,000,000 people another 1000 calories, which, after all, ought to satisfy them? As a matter of fact I took a figure of 125,000,000 people, and worked out that to give them 1,000 calories a day each would need 7,000,000 tons, not 17,000,000. Where are the other 10,000,000 going?
What is this sudden scream for 10,000,000 tons of wheat extra over and above what is required to give 125,000,000 people an extra 1,000 calories a day? Who are the claimants? It is not Russia. She has removed rationing. She must have plenty of food. The whole population of Europe is only 400,000,000, and I really find it difficult to understand these figures. Europe lived for five years without any imports at all. Why is there this sudden catastrophe? What would have happened if we had not liberated Europe? Would they have been short of 17,000,000 tons, or even 15,000,000? Would it mean about 200,000,000 starving to death because they had nothing at all? Surely we are entitled to get some explanation. We are told the harvest will have dropped from 42,000,000 tons a year in the 1934–1938 period to 23,000,000 tons in 1945. That is also in the Government's statistical explanation.
Where do we get these figures? Can we really depend upon them? Are we sure they are comparable? On the face of it, they seem to me most unlikely. The 1945 harvest was planted in the main in 1944. What has happened in between? If we had not liberated Europe, had they only planted on the basis that 110,000,000 people would go short of 2,000 calories a day? Were they going to face that? Is that what Hitler was preparing the way for if he won the war? I do not think
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we should take these figures on trust. I have seen a great deal of statistics. I have seen them put forward from every side. I know it is a very unpopular question. I know that anyone who doubts the horribly urgent need of the people of Europe is considered to be callous, brutal and hard-hearted.
It is our duty in this House to risk unpopularity, even to be condemned by the right reverend Prelates Who are not here to hear my speech, but I do maintain that one of the justifications for a non-elective assembly such as this is that it can usually say things that cannot be said by people outside who have to depend upon the votes of their supporters to be re-elected. I know, of course, that people are very much disturbed and distressed by the heartrending stories which are told about the refugees and people starving in Germany. I have not the slightest doubt that those stories are true, and although I may not be able to show it in the same suitable manner, I am equally distressed myself at the thought of it, but is it not true that these stories only apply to a small number of cases? They do not apply to the whole population of Germany, and I do not think therefore that we ought to allow the thought that perhaps we have wasted some of our sympathy to deter us from looking into the facts—
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER: May I say to the noble Lord that that letter which I signed referred to the population outside the actual rural population?
LORD CHERWELL: I would be very much surprised if there are 140,000,000 people in Europe living in urban areas. It would mean more than one-third were in the big cities.
I am perfectly willing to be convinced if I am given the facts and figures. I ask that we should be given these facts and figures. They are available. They are accessible. What I would like to know is: Where do we get those facts from? Where are those figures got; this 19,000,000 tons deficit, this 17,000,000 tons demand, and these 140,000,000 people starving? I have had a great deal of painful experience in this war in trying to discover facts and figures. In this country even when we have got full access to the whole of the figures of the Department, when people are trying to help,

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trying to tell you facts and figures, it is incredibly difficult to get accurate answers. Classification varies, quantities run between different dates, definitions vary. The whole thing is extremely difficult, even when you have got full access and everybody is trying to help. If people are not trying to help, if they are concerned to prove a case, if they are anxious to induce you to believe that their needs are very great, I consider it almost impossible to got accurate figures, especially when half the people are concerned, as I say, to overstate their case.
I think the figures we get in this way can scarcely be relied on at all. I ask: Have these demands for these 17,000,000 tons—before the Indian and South African matters came into the question at all—been scrutinized and criticized and screened? We got plenty of demands of this type throughout the war, of every sort, kind and description, even from our own English Departments. Demands are, almost always very much over-stated, and I cannot really believe those figures which, as I say, lead to such complete incompatibility. The figures purport to show that if we had not arrived 110,000,000 people in liberated Europe would have been short of 2,000 calories a day. I cannot believe that sort of figure is accurate. I claim that before our people have their allocation cut, before England submits to cuts in ration we are entitled to be told the details.
There are very disquieting rumours, as everybody knows, about a very large proportion of the food grown being grown for the black markets in foreign countries. Lord Lindsay said in the rural areas that people were well fed.
LORD AMMON: Would you mind telling us what the cuts are in rationing?
LORD CHERWELL: The cut in fats and the extraction, about which I am going to say something in a moment, which gives us less palatable bread, and also fewer eggs and less bacon. We are told that the towns are starving and it was only the rural areas that are well fed. Perhaps that may be so, but there is not a very big proportion of people in the towns; the main population of Europe is in the rural areas, and I do think it is a little hard that the British public should be asked to go short because the farmers
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and peasants in Europe do not think it worth while to feed their own towns-people. It is all very well, but if the German peasant does not think it worth while to send food to his relations in Frankfurt, it is a little difficult to justify that we in England should suffer in order to do so.
We are told that transport is short. That is a good argument and it has been put forward very frequently, almost ad nauseam. I am a little surprised at it, I must say, when we remember the huge numbers of lorries which were able to move full armies about in a matter of weeks over hundreds of miles. It is a little difficult to believe that it is impossible to get food from rural areas to the towns. No doubt that is the official argument. It seems we can get the foods from the ports to the towns all right. If transport is so short, why is it easy to get food from the ports to Frankfurt, if you cannot get it from Rhine-Hessen to Frankfurt? How can you say that you can get transport from the ports all right but not from the rural areas? I think it is the black market, rather than transport, that stands in the way of food getting to the towns.
I do not propose to talk about India, because that is a very special and difficult case and it is not concerned with the arguments I have been making. In India the population breeds right up to the subsistence level, and the figures are so enormous that when the monsoon fails you cannot really help. When you do get a 15 per cent. fall in harvest, as you may from time to time, then India is particularly vulnerable and it is extremely hard to help her. The more she is industrialized the harder it will be because there will be more mouths to feed and fewer producers of food.
There is another question which is mysterious—I think I know the official answer; the noble Lord adumbrated it—about the figures given in the statistical document. We get there an estimate of stocks of wheat in June, 1938, amounting to 9,455,000 tons. The stocks of wheat in June, 1946, a year after we have faced this world catastrophe, will be 11,800,000–2.3 million tons more than we had in June, 1938, and nobody talked about any sort of shortage then. Those are the figures given. The noble Viscount shakes his head. If he likes to add together the figures in the table given at

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the bottom of page 3 he will find that the total stocks in the principal importing countries in 1938 were 9,455,000 tons, and in June, 1946, the forecast was 11,800,000 tons, so there are 2¼ million tons more.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: What was the first year?
LORD CHERWELL: 1938, and nobody talked of any sort of world food shortage. On the face of it, it looks a little odd. I know what the departmental answer is all right—I do not think anyone need bother to go and get it. I can tell the noble Lord what it will be. The answer will be that the food is not available at the ports; that the main discrepancy arises in Canada, and that the wheat is all inland and they cannot get it to the ports to ship it in time. If that is so, it certainly shows great lack of foresight because, after all, the harvest figures for Europe (and we are considering the European shortages) were known last year. It is quite true that the figures for South Africa did not come through until November, and those for Australia and the Argentine until December. But everyone makes forecasts of the harvest. It is a matter of the acreage sown, rather than the weather, which affects the total output. If we knew that there was going to be a shortage in Europe, surely we could have taken steps to get the wheat moved to the ports. There are no munitions being moved this year. Last year and the year before millions of tons of munitions were being moved from in-land factories to the ports, and they might well be said to have been in the way of wheat getting to the ports. But this time surely it should have been possible to get the wheat forward so that we could have made shipments as and when required. As it is, the gap in Europe was foreseen, or must have been foreseen, although I do not think anyone at any stage would have thought of this so-called gap of 19,000,000 tons. There must have been knowledge, however, that there would be a demand for wheat, and apparently no great effort was made to get the existing stocks to the ports.
I do not know if any other steps were taken to meet the admitted urgency. We know that labour was called up and no directions were given to plough. What I want to know is whether we, in the United Kingdom, as against other
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countries, really had a bad deal in the allocations. We have already sacrificed by sending abroad 1,250,000 tons. The noble Lord says that we would not have been any more hard-hearted than he, and I have no doubt that is true; but I think we would have examined the figures more carefully. I certainly would have done so before I accepted the figures of the demands which were put forward.
I notice that Belgium. Denmark, Norway, and Czechoslovakia all get an 80 per cent extraction of wheat or better for their bread; we are to go up to 85 per cent wheat extraction. I know many food cranks prefer that. I believe some noble Lords even prefer it, so I had better withdraw the expression "food cranks." Many people claim to prefer what I have heard called "the bread of affliction" and think it wholesome. It may or may not be so. I have not been convinced that it is more wholesome. But I maintain that we have no right to force people to eat stuff they do not like, merely be cause some of us think it wholesome. It has been imposed on people for the six years of war, and now, after they thought they had got rid of it, they find this nasty, sour, grey bread imposed on them again, and I find it one of the most lamentable concomitants of our mealtime.
Of course a far more serious loss is that of animal protein. There is a letter in the Daily Telegraph this morning explaining that the Department of Agriculture in Cambridge showed that the protein conversion factors for hogs was 25 per cent and hens 30 per cent. It you could convert 300,000 tons with the lower extraction rate you would sacrifice 100,000 tons of eggs, about three eggs a month. I really think that is quite a serious matter.
I ask, has our case in Washington been put with proper force, authority, energy and conviction? No doubt other countries press their case—I am not concerned with them. What I am afraid of is that our representative may have over-emphasized the other countries' case and rather forgotten England. That is a very admirable and humane tendency, but it must have its limits. It is often said that with the Englishman charity begins abroad, and I have the unfortunate feeling that when this matter was put to the Combined Food Board in Washington

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(who, as the noble Lord said, have the last word), our case was perhaps rather forgotten in view of the humane pressure we brought to bear to obtain the maximum amount possible for the suffering peoples of Europe.
We all like to be generous, to relieve distress and to succour the needy, but we have no right to do it at other people's expense. As the noble Lord himself said, our first duty is to the British people. They have fought, worked and suffered for six long years and it is our duty to fight their battles for them now. I hope that the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, will persuade the Departments concerned to give us some detailed statistical material so that we may assure ourselves that the figures prove we do not deserve more than we are getting, and so that we do not go away with the unhappy feeling that we may have got less than we ought to have got because some people, not fully acquainted with our case, took too much at their face value the demands of other countries, who no doubt put their cases forward with great firmness and vigour. I think I have said enough, and I will now prepare to be flayed by the noble Lord, the Master of Balliol, who, I am sure, has much to say on the opposite side.
4.22 p.m.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, before I begin to make the very short speech that I was going to make, I really must express very strong dissent from my noble friend who has just sat down. I think his attack on high extraction bread was most unnecessary. We have got to eat it, and we know that if it is properly baked it is quite excellent. I would have l00 per cent extraction myself. I am sorry that Lord Horder is not with us, for he would deal with this better than I can, but perhaps I may tell the noble Lord that I sat as Chairman of a Government Committee which discussed for two and a half years the question of the teeth of the people. The evidence I had before me convinced me that the teeth of the children of the country and of the mothers who produced the children were very much finer if they got, as far as possible, wholemeal bread. There is any amount of evidence to prove that if they did not get it, the children were not so well provided with teeth and the bones were not so good. If the noble Lord
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likes to read the report issued by the Ministry of Health he will, I think, alter his opinion.
LORD CHERWELL: May I intervene to say that I did not claim it was definitely worse for the people? I simply said I was not convinced by the evidence. My point is that even if you think it is better for the people, you have no right to force them to eat it. It would probably be better for everyone to run a mile in the park before breakfast, but you would not make that compulsory, I imagine, by Government decree. You are making it compulsory for the people to eat this bread that they do not like because you think it is better for them.
LORD TEVIOT: If the noble Lord had been here during the debates on the bread question he would know that we all said we wanted everybody to eat starch if they so desired, but we wanted the other bread to be available; and that was what I could not find whenever I went travelling about the country. So far in this debate nobody has touched on the question of home food production. Some of your Lordships will remember that I raised this question in 1941, when I said: "If the Government anticipate a short war, what they are doing now is all right; but if a long war is anticipated, then at the end of it the land of this country will be producing far less food than it is now." I am talking about human food. At that time I quoted the case of a particular farm and I will give your Lordships figures showing the effect on that farm of the policy, not of this Government, but of the last Government. The figures for 1944 as compared with those for 1939 show that the loss has been thirty-eight tons of pig meat, five tons of eggs and poultry, 250 tons of cereal, and quite apart from that there has been an enormous loss of fertility.
What I want to put to the Government is this. Do not think that because you feed to two animals a certain amount of human food, you are necessarily going to reduce the amount of human food produced on the land. As we all know, the land is not a factory; you must put something into it before you can withdraw from it goods in the shape of nutrition. Let me quote the very interesting example of Denmark. Denmark had no fertilizers during the war at all, but the situation to-day there is that she is producing

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enough to feed 1·9 persons per acre per annum, without one kilogramme of feeding stuffs being imported. We should look to see whether that standard can be attained here, and there is no reason why it should not, because in Denmark their land is not as good as ours and the climate is not as good as it is here. We have roughly 31,000,000 acres of cultivable land, not including 16,000,000 acres of rough grazing, so, if you work it out, we could, under pressure, on the basis of what Denmark is doing, grow enough food in this country for 60,000,000 people.
Our land is not as fertile now as it was at the beginning of the war. Do the Government anticipate that we are going to have a long period of shortage of foodstuffs in the world? We are not starting on the basis of 1939–40 now; we have lost all that fertility. One of the most serious questions we have got to decide is whether we dare reduce any more the animal population of the country. Perhaps I may refresh your Lordships' memory as to what the reduction has been. I will not give the reduction in cattle because I am not sure of it, but between 1939 and 1944 there has been a reduction of 6,500,000 sheep, 2,500,000 pigs and 19,000,000 poultry. My authority for those figures is the Ministry of Agriculture. You can see the terrific strain which there must be on the land to-day.
If we go on reducing, as I am afraid we are likely to do, because we are going to say that the animals will have to give us a certain amount of their nutrition, I am very doubtful whether the result will be that there will be more human food. The evidence is that there will not be. I do hope the Government will go into that question very seriously. Time and time again during the period I spoke of, I begged the Minister to give farmers the right to retain up to 10 per cent of the crops they grew to keep their animals going, and it was refused over and over again. Judging by results, I am quite certain that we should have had more food in the country for human beings if we had not adopted that particular policy.
Going back to the subject of bread, I can see a way of helping the situation. Where does Bemax come from? Where do wheatflakes come from? Where do all these processed foods out of which various
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people are making fortunes come from? They all come out of the wheat-grain. I say: "Stop that and that will help." It is worth thinking about. I notice my son likes wheat-flakes. Why does he not eat wholemeal bread? If he eats wholemeal bread then he will not want to eat all these other things. I do not eat them; I eat wholemeal bread. And he is beginning to do so, thank goodness… I want again to stress this question of fertility; it is really a serious one. The fertility of the country is enormously depreciated, and I do hope that the Government will take serious notice of that and maintain as many animals as possible with a view to getting more human food as a result.
4.31 p.m.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: My Lords, I should like, first of all, to say, from this side of the House, how deeply we appreciate the magnificent response of our overseas Dominions to the appeals to meet the present food crisis in this country and on the Continent of Europe, and I am sure that an expression of appreciation in our home Parliament will appeal very particularly to those with whom I am most familiar in the Dominions of Australia and New Zealand. Their war effort has been magnificent, both in the Fighting Forces and elsewhere, and indeed, on the land in each country their effort has been without parallel, or at any rate has not been surpassed in any part of the British Empire. The noble Lord, the Leader of the Opposition has spoken of the perilous world food position. Surely, what we ought most to concern ourselves with, bearing in mind whatever Lord Cherwell may have said with regard to statistics, is this. We all have to admit that the outlook in the matter of food supply is of unparalleled gravity. Therefore, we ought to bend our minds to the great problem of how to deal with this unprecedented food outlook. I hope that I shall not be considered unfair to those who have spoken from this side of the House if I say that production is at the moment even more important than recrimination.
We farmers in this country, as in most countries, have to plan our cropping programme in the early autumn, and what, of course, has thrown the programme out of gear for the moment is the appeal which has been made by the Government

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to alter that programme at this time of the year. I can speak confidently as the President of the premier agricultural society of this country when I say that farmers and other food producers in this country will do their utmost, if the weather be favourable and the labour available, to obey the behest of the Government in the matter of food production at home. As regards the sowing of wheat this spring and the ploughing up of temporary leys with this object, I hope that if the results are disappointing our farmers will not be blamed. The land has been for several weeks past in a sodden condition, and winter cultivations have been seriously delayed. Spring-sown wheats in the past have been regarded as a very uncertain crop in this climate and on our soils, but it is perfectly true that there are new varieties of spring wheat which have more than fulfilled expectations during, shall I say, the abnormally favourable seasons that we have had during the last few years. But spring wheats cannot be regarded as a wholly dependable crop for the production of bread grain.
As to the darker loaf, I share the views just expressed by my noble friend Lord Teviot and I will not go further into that debatable subject, except to say that I think there has been a claim in regard to pigs and poultry which has been unduly exaggerated. I have always held the view that with the comparatively small extra milling extraction, the benefit to humans is far greater than the loss to either pigs or poultry. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, put forward a request which I should like strongly to endorse, namely, that an effort be made to import larger quantities of maize from Argentina and elsewhere. Incidentally, bearing in mind the unfortunate results of trying to put maize into our loaves during the previous Great War, I should like to suggest that maize is more suitable for feeding our live stock, especially pigs, than for incorporation into the loaf.
I have no doubt Lord Cherwell will not contradict me, eminent scientist though he is, if I suggest that fat has the highest calory value of all foods, and there is no more rapid means of producing it than by feeding pigs. But I think the pig has not received fair treatment during the late, or even the previous
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world war. I remember it being said by an eminent German scientist after the first world war that that war would have come to an end at least a year earlier if it had not been for the fact that German scientists concentrated their attention upon pigs and potatoes as being the best medium for reproducing most rapidly the protein, the fat, and the starch required for human food.
Nothing has been said about rye. I would venture to suggest that in the next two or three years it might be worth while encouraging greater production of rye in this country. It is undoubtedly of high nutritional value, and on our lighter soils can be produced with less risk than wheat. In the neighbourhood of York, large quantities of rye are produced. I may say that in almost every season the harvest is successful. Potatoes, I suppose, are the nearest starch equivalent to rice. One cannot help thinking that if we are in for what we may call a world rice famine, we might easily, in spite of the fact that potatoes are such an unpopular crop with the farmer, particularly when he is short of labour, make an effort to produce more potatoes, if not this year, at any rate in the next two or three years.
I would remind your Lordships that it is estimated that during this last war over one-tenth of the food output was obtained from allotments and gardens in this country. I think if an appeal were made at the present time by the Government to these small-scale food producers, all very patriotic people, there might be a very substantial augmentation of our food supply from those small areas. I should like to support what Lord Teviot said with regard to fertilizers, and especially the provision of phosphates. There have been given into our hands during the last few years immense quantities of phosphate rock in North Africa, which is now being converted, or a large proportion of it, into phosphatic fertilizer, but nothing like the amount that could be, if efforts were concentrated upon that source of supply, not only for our own requirements, but also very much for the requirements of Germany and other Continental countries.
The position in 1947 may be even more serious than in 1946. Let us, who belong to the agricultural community, know as

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soon as possible what is the desired food output from our own land in the next two years. Nothing does the agricultural community resent more than a sudden alteration in the Government's programme in the matter of what they are, in the national interest, expected to supply. Tell us early and tell us clearly, and, given labour, fertilizers, and reasonably good weather, we will do our best. May I just add this: we need more outside labour, whether German prisoners or others, on the land and a more nutritive ration for those normally employed on the land. If you could put more protein food into the British farmworker you would get a bigger food output from the soil that he cultivates.
4.41 p.m.
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER: My Lords, it is not for a junior member of this House to congratulate a senior member like the noble Viscount Lord Bledisloe, but I cannot forbear thanking him for making that constructive speech. It is worth all the slanging matches in the world jolly and pleasant as slanging matches are. The noble Lord, Lord Cherwell is far too clever and far too quick-witted for a slow and stupid person like myself. I do not think it is any good complaining, but I must call attention to a slight inconsistency of the noble Lord. He started by saying it was no good doing anything with statistics. He mentioned the evidence of Mrs. Roosevelt, but that is not statistical evidence. I could have replied by giving evidence of people engaged in giving education in Germany. What is the good of trying to instill democracy into starving children. The nobel Lord is quite right, that you cannot take statistics without a great deal of examination It would have been very much better if we could have sat round a table with the things in front of us and talked it over.
LORD CHERWELL: It is not that I do not like statistics, but I do not believe those that have been given. When figures are incompatible with one another, it is time to criticize.
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER: I still maintain that the fact is that the noble Lord does not like them. He may be right, and far be it from me to suggest that you should read statistics
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because they come from Government Departments, or even statistics produced by the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell or any statistical manufactory over which he presides. The noble Lord reminded me of an experience in 1925 when we had the pleasure of a lecture on the five-year plan from a representative of the Soviet Embassy whose name I have forgotten People came to this lecture in great excitement expecting to hear terrific things about blood and the gutters. Instead of that they got one long row of statistics for an hour and quarter. The only ones I could check filled me with great suspicion, and I said to the lecturer at the end that it had been my misfortune or at any rate my fate to have to deal with statistics, and they made me feel that I would never believe in statistics again In reply to this the Soviet representative said "Ah, Yes, statistics are very very illusory, but they are very very useful." I feel that in the way in which the noble Lord himself did.
LORD CHERWELL: Is that the way in which the noble Lord selected the figures he published in his letter?
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER: It is no good unless you have had it out with one another. That, I think, is what we ought to try and do. That is what I got up to say. It is very difficult to speak in a debate which has been introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, because I think everybody agrees that he was a superb Minister of Food and almost carried the Conservative Party on his back. I am quite serious about this. I can remember all through the war, time and again, people grumbling about the Government, but they all said, "Food has been extraordinarily well done." I think the noble Lord is wrong when he deprecates public relations and does not realize how much his success was dependent upon the perfect way in which it was put across. I think it is important that when people have to accept privations they should know the reasons and that, I think, is what Lord Woolton did very well.
There is a story told of the late President Roosevelt that when he was staying at a place in the Adirondacks where people were fishing without any success, they asked him to try and give them some help. He went to the bank of the river and said, "My friends …. and the

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trout leaped out of the water. I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, telling us in that wonderful cooing voice of his that we must do with half an ounce less butter, and I could imagine people replying, "Oh yes, dear Lord Woolton, take an ounce." I think that was an important thing and I think that this Government has forgotten how important is psychology. I think that principle is more important in peacetime than in wartime. In wartime people will endure almost anything and they do not need so much explanation. In peacetime when that is gone and you think it is going to be all right, you need far more assistance and explanation. I do venture to say, though speaking from this side of the House, that that is really what is wrong.
It is very hard to say that the administration and the getting of the food was not really about as good as it could be, or that there have been mistakes about it, but I do not think we can doubt that the putting of it across has been bady done. I should like to urge the Government to take this with complete seriousness and try to see what matters very much indeed—that is, to get the British housewife cheerful and courageous and willing to bear the privations which will have to go on for much longer. It has been done before. It wants to be done more. I think British housewives would face having even less than they have if they had not got to spend such a long time in queues waiting for their rations and things of that kind. I am bound to say—though I gather that this is an unpopular thing to say—that it is really pretty extraordinary that we should have a debate which supposes that it is as important as all that—it is important of course—that we should have slightly worse rations (and I say this with all deference to Lord Cherwell) if it really is the case that there are going to be millions of people faced with starvation.
There is a charming old house by the banks of the Clyde, where Sir Walter Scott used to stay, which has inscribed in it the old family motto: "Thou shalt want ere I want" —as my great grandmother used to say of a rather similar motto which we had in my family, "not a motto for a Christian family." The trend of some of the speeches which have been made in this debate does seem to be:
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"You shall want ere I want" or—if we are to take Lord Cherwell literally "You shall want ere we have equally nutritive bread which we like less." If the facts are as stated, what we are apparently inclined to say is: "You" —meaning by that millions —"shall die of starvation sooner than we have seven ounces instead of eight ounces of fat." I do not believe for a moment, for all we say as to having to look after ourselves first, that that is what anybody in this House really thinks.
LORD CHERWELL: If the premise is true.
LORD LINDSAY OF BIRKER: From the speeches of some of the noble Lords it might almost he believed that their view is really like that which I have indicated. We should not have gone on talking about dried eggs in this serious way, and the loss of them would not have been taken so seriously by the Press had we given our minds to these other facts if they are as stupendous as is made out.
4.53 p.m.
LORD RUSHOLME: My Lords, I think it is a very good thing that such a keen interest should be taken in this vital problem of providing foodstuffs for the nation as a whole. After six years of austerity living, one can understand the feeling of the nation that there should now be not only greater supplies of foodstuffs but, indeed, greater variety. I am bound to say that I wish that the same keen interest had been displayed in the nation's food needs in years gone by. For, whilst we must admit that it is a tragedy that there is a world shortage of foodstuffs with all the terrible consequences which must ensue, I think also that we must not overlook the fact that ever since the Industrial Revolution there have been millions of people in this country who have always been short of food while there were adequate supplies. They were short of food in the midst of plenty for the sole reason that the economic buildup of this country did not permit of their drawing a wage sufficient to enable them to purchase the foodstuffs essential to both health and strength. I sincerely hope that this food question will always be given the sincere and sympathetic consideration in the future which is being given to it by your Lordships this afternoon.

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I cannot forget that when there was an attempt early in 1939 by certain sections of the community to insist that rationing should be immediately introduced to secure that all should have a fair opportunity of obtaining their share of the supplies available, those responsible did not receive very sympathetic consideration from the Government of that day. Indeed, I recall that it was only very slowly and hesitatingly that the Government was forced to adopt the rationing system, by which means alone the working section of the community can be assured of a reasonable share of the supplies which become more difficult to secure. I have not heard any responsible persons suggest, nor have I seen in any responsible journal the suggestion that the present Government is responsible for the shortage of food, but I cannot help feeling that there is an attempt in some quarters—indeed I think Lord Woolton made this the burden of his statement—to suggest that had some other Government been in office there would have been supplies available in greater quantities, and in more abundance of variety. In my view, there would not.
The world shortage, it is known and has been recognized for some time past, was bound to ensue following the difficulties of the war. Nor ought we, in my view, to do anything to create the impression that the present situation is peculiar to Britain. The fact is, of course, that very few countries will fare so well as Britain in regard to food supplies. We shall be one of the few countries which will fare better than most. That, of course, does not mean, in my judgment, that we ought to be satisfied with the situation. It means that every opportunity must be taken to produce more food, to secure shipping, and to ensure also that there is a united effort by all countries to solve the problems inherent in the present situation.
I was very glad to note, from the report of the Conference of the United Nations, which took place at the Central Hall, Westminster, recently, that there seemed to be unanimity of desire on the part of the representatives of the other nations to help, along with Britain, to solve the problems with which we are faced in this connexion. It does seem to be essential in the present circumstances that we should secure the most
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equitable distribution of such foodstuffs as are available, and I would like to ask the Government to give some further consideration to the question of the distribution of certain "points" food upon the datum line principle. I have in mind particularly canned fish which the Government allocates to distributors on the basis of figures in 1936, 1937 and 1938.
Conditions to-day are entirely different from conditions in those years. Populations have moved. There is no provision when you allocate on a datum line basis for the movement of population. If we are to obtain equality, the foodstuffs must follow the population. It seems to me that it may be particularly hard on sections of the country like the northeastern area, South Wales and others which were depressed in those years, that because the people of those sections of the country, owing to the terrible conditions under which they were suffering, were unable to purchase canned salmon, they should be placed in a worse position than other sections of the country before securing articles of that character. I hope it will be possible to have that question of the datum line investigated.
It seemed to me, listening to the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, that he was endeavouring to suggest that the present situation should have been foreseen and that the Government ought to have taken some steps to deal with it. It seems to me that whatever action the Government had taken in recent months, they could not possibly have estimated the world shortage of many foodstuffs. Nor, indeed, could the Government have done anything to deal with the conditions which have been referred to by the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, in regard to the climatic conditions which have been responsible for the failure of crops in a large part of the world or have varied the ill-fortune of the whaling industry. Take, for example, Europe, which, before the war, produced 46 per cent of the foodstuffs of the world. The difficulty there is obvious. Between 1941 and 1945 there was no active warfare on the Continent of Europe between the Russian frontier and the Atlantic, and the production of agricultural products was going on peacefully and unaffected. But that is not the position to-day.
Within the last few years armies have marched over Europe. They have de

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stroyed the crops. It is not possible now for sowing to proceed in many areas, simply because one does not know where the mines have been laid, and lives are being lost every day by agricultural workers in the country because they are stepping on mines which have been left there as the armies marched to and fro. The noble Lord disagrees with my figure of 46 per cent It is suggested to me that occupied Europe has lost one-third of its horses, while in Poland in the latter part of last year I saw ploughs being pulled by men because horses were not available. One quarter of the cattle have been lost half of the pig population, and one-third of the sheep. What is left, it is suggested to me, is in many parts under-nourished and possibly unfit for breeding. What could the Government have done to remedy that situation in five minutes, or five weeks, or five months? It will possibly he a task of five years.
Many of the factors leading up to the present situation have only revealed themselves in recent times. So far back as last June, we were told at the Food Conference in London that there would be a shortage for two years to come at least, of sugar, oils, fats and live-stock products, and that supplies of live stock would be inadequate for three or four years. Again I say, what could Government action have done in these circumstances to improve the situation in the few months ahead? Again, I think that the great shortage of food grain was not foreseen. Had it been I cannot think that the Coalition Government would in February of last year have cut down the acreage subsidy from £4 to £2 per acre, a position which the Minister of Food has recently declared to be reasonable in the circumstances. In June of last year, it did not appear that there was any real fear in regard to the wheat position, for again, in the Report of the London Food Conference, I find it was reported that:
"If the means of transport both internal and on the high seas do not fail, sufficient wheat should be brought to the liberated areas to ensure that human beings, at any rate, obtain adequate quantities."
That statement does not appear to indicate that there was any suspicion in June last that there would be a great shortage of food grain arising in a few months' time. The fact is that circumstances have arisen since that time quite beyond the
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power of any Government to foresee. They are the result of natural causes for which no Government could in any circumstances justly be held blameworthy.
I notice that the Minister of Food has started a newspaper advertising campaign calling on the nation as a whole to refrain from wasting bread. I think we shall all agree that everything which can be done to prevent wastage of bread must be undertaken. There is considerable wastage of bread. Of that I am perfectly convinced, and I think an inspection of many food bins would clearly show that to be the case. I think there is also a considerable wastage of bread and potatoes, both of which are heavily subsidized by the Exchequer, as a result of poultry keepers endeavouring to keep a number of birds very much in excess of that which can be maintained on the ration. I should like to see the Minister of Food issuing a strong warning against the use of bread fit for human consumption for the feeding of poultry. I know that rationing of bread would meet the situation, but I think that psychologically it would be a bad move. I want to follow up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lindsay, in regard to statements which have to be made by the Minister of Food in the nature of a warning or a suggestion, or an appeal. I suggest that the Minister should return to the practice, followed very successfully by the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, of making his appeals in person over the wireless.
Many people will read the newspaper advertisements, but I am perfectly certain that newspaper advertising does not make the personal appeal to the individual that an appeal over the wireless will do. Over the wireless each individual who is listening has the feeling that the Minister is making an appeal to him as an individual, and I am perfectly certain that that will bring a response in a manner which you will never get from newspaper advertising. May I make one further point on the question of bread? I should like to see the Minister coming to an early decision in regard to the restrictions on retail distribution. Staffs are coming back from the Forces. It is difficult sometimes to put our men back into the occupations which they had before the war as a consequence of the restrictions which exist. I make the point that it would have an effect in the saving of bread that through regular deliveries we should find the

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housewife ordering the bread she needed until the next delivery came round. At the present time the housewife often plays for safety, so there is more bread than is needed, and in consequence there is waste.
I should like to say something about the dried egg. What shades of war-time breakfasts does that not recall, with sausages with 30 per cent. of meat and last night's left-over potatoes? If I were the Minister of Food I would have investigated every hotel cookhouse, and where the cook could not prepare dried egg in a manner which could be presented in a pleasing-looking style at the breakfast table I would have refused to supply it because I am perfectly certain there is a tremendous quantity wasted in that way.
I am sure the Minister of Food was staggered at the reaction of the housewives to his decision with regard to dried eggs. Of course, so were many grocers. It would appear to me that this decision of the Minister to withhold supplies of dried egg for a period gave to dried egg a popularity which it certainly never previously enjoyed. The Minister has said that in August last when the entitlement was one packet for every four weeks the off-take was only one-half the entitlement. Certainly when the supply to the consumer was reduced from one packet in four weeks to one packet each eight weeks no comment was made, and even then in some areas at least the consumer had so little regard for dried egg that the entitlement was not taken up. If dried egg is now popular it is due entirely to the Ministry of Food, firstly for the great efforts which they made to popularise it by the issue of recipes and that sort of thing; and secondly, to the decision to hold up supplies for a period which has enabled many grocers to clear a stock which was cluttering up their shelves and moving but slowly.
May I in support of this statement quote an extract from a paper which I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, will know very well, the Manchester Evening News?
"Mr. Alban Curtis, Secretary of the Manchester and Salford Grocers' Association, which has a membership of over 75,000 grocers in the North-West, said 'If Sir Ben Smith had not publicly announced the dried egg position, grocers in the North-West division could have managed with what supplies they had until the autumn when the next dried eggs can be expected'."
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And then:
"Councillor Hugh Lee, who is this year's Lord Mayor of Manchester, and owns a number of grocers' shops said to-day in his capacity as a grocer: 'Before the Food Minister made his announcement I had enough dried eggs in my warehouse to serve every one of my registered customers for three months. There was practically no demand for them, but since the announcement there has been a rush for them."
I would suggest to the Minister he might do a very excellent service to the grocery trade if he would make an immediate announcement that he proposes to withdraw dried milk, for that seems to be about as popular as dried egg was.
A NOBLE LORD: And spam.
LORD RUSHOLME: Yes, spam probably. The pity of it, it seems to me in this connexion, is that newspapers, to whom so many people look for news, omitted to make it clear that the withdrawal of dried egg was only of a temporary nature and that when the flush period for shell eggs was passed the supply of fresh eggs would be supplemented by dried eggs again. If they had made that clear, probably a lot of the comments we have heard about this matter would not have occurred.
I would like to say something on publicity, because it does appear to me—I must say this quite frankly—that the Minister did not make the best of the situation with which he was faced. When he was called upon to announce the recent change in rations I think he really had a much better story to tell than the one he put out. What is the position with regard to dried egg? It was never popular with the housewives. It was merely regarded as a substitute, as a second best, which they had to have because there was nothing better. The Ministry worked hard to popularise the substitute and even succeeded to some extent. But surely when the Minister announced he was going to withdraw dried egg, which was merely a substitute for fresh egg, and he was going to give the nation fresh eggs instead of dried egg which they did not like, one would have thought that that was an opportunity for gaining some credit for having done something in the interest of the nation. I am perfectly certain of this, if the announcement had been made by the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, he would have done it in such a way that the reaction of the people would have been

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entirely different to the reaction we have had to the recent announcement. To tell the public that he is giving them fresh egg for dried egg at the same time as he is able to announce an increase in the milk ration, more fish, a greater variety in the way of grapefruit and oranges, and lemons—
A NOBLE LORD: And tomatoes.
LORD RUSHOLME: Certainly—that surely was an opportunity for gaining credit for the Minister of Food for having done something really valuable for the housewife. I think we must confess that the best use was not made of the opportunity which was available. But we should not make the mistake of thinking that publicity, or successful publicity, is as valuable as the food which the people need. So far as I am concerned, I am quite convinced that the action the Minister will take will secure for us all the foodstuffs which are available to us and which we need. I would not be prepared to say we must entirely ignore the claims of other nations. I could not possibly take that view. I am sure, however, of this, that in considering our relations with other nations, the Ministry will take every possible care to ensure that we do get the supplies which we need. I know this, that on the Government Benches in the other place, there are very many members to whom a shortage of food in their homes was a permanent situation. The knowledge of these days I am certain is sufficient to secure that they will never rest until everything possible is done to ensure that the larders and the kitchens of our homes in this country are stocked with that variety of goods which the people of this country certainly deserve after their efforts of the past years.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: My Lords, I find it somewhat embarrassing that it falls to me, who have so recently made my own maiden speech, to congratulate the noble Lord who has just sat down, on a very fine maiden speech. I should like to say all the neat things which are usually said on these occasions, but I am afraid it is quite beyond me. I am no speaker but I do sincerely mean what I say when I congratulate him on his very useful suggestions in, if I may say so, the well-judged speech he has just made,
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and express the hope that we shall often hear him again.
There are only a few things with which I do not entirely agree, but I am not going to dwell on them. I would just like to mention the dried egg situation, because I think that greater significance has been attached to that than is really warranted. We are all aware of the outcry which arose when it was announced that the dried eggs supply was going to be stopped. I was of the opinion that it was not until after that outcry that it was announced that the supply was not going to be stopped permanently but only for a period. I may be wrong in that, but that is my impression and it is a very widely held one. The reduction of the subsidy for wheat I do not think has any significance, because in these days the war agricultural executive committee goes round and says: "You plant this, you plant that and what you get for it is nothing to do with you or anybody else." Therefore, except for the benefit of the Exchequer, and probably the farmers, I do not think it is of much significance.
I would like to deal with the question of the cultivation in Europe. I am afraid I was a little late in arriving and I did not get the full gist of this, so I can only say how it strikes me. I think that my experience is similar to the experience of a large number of people returning to this country who have been in the Forces and who have been recently "demobbed." Unfortunately, of course, any individual—myself or anyone else—only saw a small portion of the country in Europe, but when we were there the thing that struck us was the amazing speed with which the farmers got back on to the land and got it back into cultivation. In fact they were practically up in the front line; they were ducking and going on ploughing. That is the impression I got and I think it must be shared by the great number of people who are in the same position as myself.
Then there is the question of the wastage of bread. It is true there is wastage, but there is a point which has been very strongly brought out to those of us who have been in the Forces, and that is the enormous quantity of bread wasted owing to the shocking state of the teeth of the people of this country. The first thing all the men do is to tear off the crust I and throw it away. The average slice of

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bread is five inches by five inches, making twenty-five square inches. If you tear off one-quarter of an inch all round, that makes five square inches; therefore you are wasting one-fifth of your total quantity of bread. Now if you feed that crust, which you are going to waste in any case, to the chickens, and get eggs for it which you can cat without teeth, it seems all right to me. I agree that the throwing away of bread is reprehensible, but the prohibition of feeding bread to fowls would be wrong. If bread is short, people will not waste the part which they can eat. What they give to the fowls is the part they will not eat in any case, and I think that is good business.
I cannot talk as an expert on this subject, and my only excuse for intervening at all is that the question of food concerns everyone. The subject has been fully covered by the experts and there is nothing I can add on those lines. There are a few points, however, which I do not think have been covered to the satisfaction of one who like myself has no knowledge of the facts. All the knowledge we have is gathered from the garbled pieces in the newspapers, which we know are not official though nevertheless they get credit as being in large part official. I would like wholeheartedly to associate myself with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, and the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, which impressed me very much. Few would deny their right to speak with great authority on the matter. Many people outside think that we have either been let down by the Government or led up the garden path by them. That is the sort of general feeling one gets. There are two cases which read badly. One is the dried egg situation, which has probably been badly presented. Anyhow, the net result is that it has produced a bad effect. The other thing which has produced a bad effect is the fact that farmers are being urged to plant wheat at this time of the year instead of in November, when it should have been sown.
A NOBLE LORD: Earlier.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: Well, November is the latest; you can plant it then. That makes people think, rightly or wrongly, that the Government have either only just now given them something which was unpalatable, or were not fully aware of it themselves. It gives the
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Government a very bad press, if I may use that expression. Another point which strikes young people like myself is the world food allocation. There is much talk of a fair share of the world's supply of food. If that is the case and food is to be placed on a world basis, I think we are entitled to know what is the American fat ration. It is all very well for us to have only seven ounces a week, but what are they getting? If they are getting seven ounces then it is perfectly fair, and the country would say so. The Government know these things but we outsiders do not, and therefore there is a lot of suspicion. In any case, do the Americans need more calories than we do to feed them and keep them warm?
Yet another point is that a number of men coming back, demobilized, consider that a fair share is not enough; we want a winner's share. We won the war, and therefore we want the winner's share. Many of us think, without knowing the facts—I cannot pretend to know the facts—that Europe fed itself somehow. The people in Europe did not die, and, from what we have seen over there, they all appear not really to have wanted for anything in these six years. We feel that wool has been drawn over our eyes. If they could feed themselves for these last six years with no imports, let them get on with it now and do it again for another six years. We think there is a lot of exaggeration. Supposing we were in a position to export coal to the Argentine, the maize position might become considerably easier. I only hazard that as a guess.
Finally, I want to say that I do not wish to cast any aspersions upon the Government. They have a stupendous task to do, but I do feel they should place less faith in their statisticians. In my short life I have supplied information from time to time to these gentlemen. There are many ways of supplying information to a chap if you know what he is driving at. I do not say it is not strictly the truth, but there are many ways of presenting the truth. I suggest that a much surer guide is past record. If people suddenly say, "We are starving; we must have millions of tons of wheat," then it is right to say, "In 1938 you had nothing; you were not starving then, so you must be better off now." It is far better to calculate the needs on the basis of past record, because there

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are many ways of presenting these statistics. I think I have said quite enough.
5.29 p.m.
LORD LLEWELLIN: My Lords, after the very entertaining finish of the noble Lord's speech, which has, if I may say so, more than a germ of truth in it, perhaps your Lordships will allow me to address you for a short period. First, I should like to say that no one can be more sorry than I that these additional restrictions have had to be put upon the housewives of this country—that grand body of people who have done so much with so little for so long. And no one is more sorry than I—and I hope the noble Lord opposite will believe this—that the Ministry in which I am proud to have served for some twenty months has now fallen upon somewhat unpopular days.
It happened that during my tenure of office I was able to ease many of the restrictions, and in fact during the greater part of the time I was Minister of Food there was more food available to the people of this country than at any other time during the past five years. It is sad to think that nearly every improvement that I made except the extra tea, ice cream and oranges—and I am sorry to see in the paper that there is going to be a hitch in the supply of oranges now—has now had to be withdrawn, either by myself last summer or by my successor now.
I see that my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture in another place said that I had charged the world food crisis to the present Socialist Government in this country. As a matter of fact I did not do anything of the sort; I said it was hard luck on the people of this country, after the war, to have to undergo further cuts and I think we shall all agree upon that statement. I went on to say—with which noble Lords opposite probably may not agree—that I thought it was particularly hard luck that that should happen after the promises of plenty made by a number of Socialist supporters at the last Election. I do not say that any leading member of the old Coalition Cabinet made those promises, but I do know that, as Minister of Food, I was particularly vulnerable in my constituency. A rumour went from door to door and from meeting place to meet-
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ing place. After all, that is what one expects. I heard it was also happening in a number of other constituencies as well. However, that is a matter of the past, it happened at election time, and I make no complaint that I came to your Lordships'. House partly in consequence.
There are two or three matters with which I should like to deal, and a number of questions Which I should like to put. First let me say that, like the noble Lord, Lord Rusholme, whose maiden speech we were delighted to hear in this House this afternoon, I think the Ministry of Food had a great deal of success with its publicity about dried egg and was more successful than it realised. After all, practically every issue of Food Facts had an announcement urging people to use dried egg, and in addition the use of dried egg was urged on the film flashes, on the radio, and in practically every Food Advice Centre up and down the country. When I was Minister of Food I visited a large number of these Centres from the East End of London up as far North as Inverness, and in many places in between. Whenever I saw one of the charming demonstrators that we had showing people how to cook, she always seemed to start with the phrase, "Take a tablespoon of dried egg ". Quite frankly, I became rather happier in my visits when we got to fruit bottling time, and when there was another topic which was the main topic for these great ladies.
However, let us make no mistake about it; it pays to advertise. I think if you counted up the amount of money spent on advertising dried egg, under either my noble friend Lord Woolton or myself, you would find it has been advertised 'more than any other foodstuff throughout the whole history of the country. As a result, the housewife has come to rely on it; there is no doubt about that. After some time in office one gets to see how these things read, and it seems to me, looking at the answers to questions in another place, that neither the Prime Minister nor the Chancellor of the Exchequer knew anything about dried egg having been cut off. It savoured to me very much of a matter which had been dealt with just on the departmental level and which had never gone to the Cabinet itself. I think that is wrong, and I think there is a great

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deal to be said for the suggestion made by my noble friend, Lord Woolton, that the Minister of Food should be a full Cabinet Minister. I know he was not in war-time, but then we had a small war Cabinet, and there were many other very important ministers who were not in that Cabinet. In peace-time, however, I think you have got to look at things in a different light and I think it would be right and proper for that Minister to be a member of the present much-enlarged Cabinet.
Coming back to dried egg, I know it was expensive, and when I was Minister Resident in Washington I inquired about the expense. Of course, then it was under Lend-Lease, and in those days we did query its cost; it was left to the Lend-Lease administrators—great friends and supporters of ours—to arrange the contracts for us. The reason why the price of dried egg was so high was that the American administrators had had these plants built to supply it in the days when shipping space was the controlling factor. Of course, if you send over shell eggs or fresh eggs, whichever you like to call them, they take up vastly more space than dried egg. These factories were put up for the purpose of supplying this country with dried egg, and the administration wanted to recover, on current account the capital cost over a very short time, over three or four years, because they calculated that the plant would not be needed any more in the United States economy when the people of that country could get shell eggs. Therefore, if you compare, as has been done, the quantity of dried egg sent with the amount debited under Lease-Lend, you arrive at, it seems to me, quite a fictitious figure, because in that figure was included a great part of the cost of the plant itself. Things are different now that we have not Lend-Lease.
What I would like to know, if I can get an answer about it, and what I would like investigated if I cannot get an answer, is how far we have expanded our Food Mission in the United States. It was not a large body of men; they were very able men, and they were doing their job extremely well, but they were not the people who had the task of the procurement of the goods; that was done through the American agencies. If we are going, either under the Loan or by the dollars that we have to spend there, to buy our own eggs, we must, it seems to me, have
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our own men making the contracts with the individual firms, the producers, in the United States. It is no good still leaving it to the American administration.
We must do it ourselves. We must expand our staff accordingly. Let us send out good commercial men to do it, or, perhaps better still, give so much of the dollars to some of our good importing merchants before the war who know well how to do this business. They very likely can do it without it being thought that the British taxpayers' purse stands behind it, and so we shall get more things cheaply. We might easily be able to get dried egg and many of the other things we need much more cheaply than if we have to go to them always saying, "This is the British Government coming," which here is not a good approach to any commercial firm. Whether we have done that or not I do not know. It was quite clear that that alteration ought to have taken place as soon as we came off Lend-Lease.
Now with regard to wheat, it was quite true, as the noble Viscount the Leader of the House and the noble Lord, Lord Rusholme, said, that there were no anxieties about wheat last year. The noble Lord, Lord Rusholme, actually quoted a statement I made to a meeting of foreign Food Ministers over which I presided in this country. There were none and I think in those days in fact everybody said so. We were quite justified in taking those steps that we did. I am sorry that we have got to return to the darker loaf, because I had hoped that the 80 per cent extraction loaf was a permanent feature. At least I looked upon it as being a permanent feature, and I still think it was the right British compromise between the people who wanted to go right back to the 70 or 72 per cent. extraction rate and the people who wanted us to take more roughage into our stomachs, because it suits some who perhaps have what I might call somewhat constipated constitutions. At any rate, that was, it seems to me, a good compromise loaf which I had hoped would be acceptable for all time.
Nutritionally, of course, we shall not be the worse off for going back to the 85 per cent loaf; but what concerns us all is the fact that it indefinitely puts back our programme for the increase of our pig and poultry populations. We have got 330,000 tons of this roughage out of

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it, and it has put that back unfortunately indefinitely. I think that we might probably do more if we tackled this energetically by getting more maize out of the Argentine, but it is a question of sending them more coal or getting more oil to them. There were political considerations, which as a matter of fact I managed to get over when I was in Washington last Easter, which meant that oil thenceforth was sent to the Argentine where for two or three years before people had been doing a most wasteful thing. Because they could not get fuel from elsewhere, they were burning maize, and linseed too, which is the most important item in your fats and oil position, in their engines. Well, I got that started, and it is a thing which I hope the Government will energetically pursue because for too long has our traditional British dish of bacon and eggs been absent from our menus.
I well remember, when I went out to the United States as Minister Resident, staying the first night in a hotel and the next morning I said rather diffidently to the waiter: "Can I have an egg for breakfast?" He said: "Well, how many do you want?" I had two, and I do not mind admitting now that every day that I was in the United States I had an egg for my breakfast. You could always get eggs in the United States, and really it is' a bit hard on the people of this country that they have to go without when other people have got eggs and have all their hopes put back into the future. With regard to the other side of the matter, the question of bacon, a friend of mine who helps with these displaced persons, met a Dutchman who had been taken as forced labour from Holland and worked in Bavaria during the war. My friend asked him how he had been treated, and the Dutchman said: "Really, very kindly, but, oh, the food." So my friend said to him: "Well, were you starved or what was wrong with the food?" The Dutchman said: "No, but they gave me masses of ham all the time." That was in Bavaria, in the midst of Germany, and our wretched people here at home have not seen, I suppose, a ham for a very long time, or at least the great majority of them.
That brings me to the German position. When I was there, both in the American area and in our own, last July, I went round the fields and looked generally at
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the harvest, and the harvest promised extremely well. I should like to know how it turned out. We sponsored from Great Britain an operation that was called "Barley Corn" which was to release German agricultural labourers from among the prisoners-of-war we captured in the north of Germany. I saw these men coming back in lorries and going on to the fields. They were released in time for that harvest, and there is no reason why it should not all have been carried in. Let me say again that I have never seen a fitter or a better nourished population than the German population that I saw in the streets of all those Ruhr towns and as far as Frankfurt and Munich and places of that sort They had lived on the fat of the land of Europe during all the time when they got their foodstuffs and anything else they wanted from any of the areas they had captured. It all came in to Germany and I have little sympathy with them now. I think that we can quite easily get too much sympathy for them.
I should like to know who checks these demands that are made for wheat for Germany, because they want to be checked by real experts. They are made with the best will in the world by the military; indeed for all I know my noble friend, Viscount Stonehaven, may have made one or two himself; but the trained military man from his youth, one must realise, is always prone to over-estimate. He has been taught to keep one-third of his company in reserve, one-third of the battalion in reserve and one-third of the division in reserve and if you are not very careful he bases his food estimate on the same kind of reasoning. Another question I should like to ask is this: How much food, if any, is coming from the parts of Germany in Russian occupation into our side? All that part of Eastern Germany, East Prussia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and the whole of the Danube Valley was about the most fertile part of the whole of Europe; certainly from it in peace days Germany drew large quantities. This is an issue on which the Government ought to stand up to the Russians in exactly the same way as the Foreign Secretary, to his credit, stood up to them in the United Nations, because there is no mention in the White Paper of any wheat going to Germany from those sources and I should doubt whether any food is crossing that frontier at all.

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There is no reason whatever why Marshal Stalin should be put in the position of getting all that food and so being able to declare to the Russian people that he is going to take rationing off at the same time when the Minister of Food in this country has to come down to the House of Commons and tell them that he is going to restrict rations still further.
I noticed also the other day—and here again this rather reinforces my plea that the Minister of Food should be a Cabinet Minister—that we are taking into the British zone 1,500,000 Germans out of Poland. That may be politically the right thing to do, but when that decision is taken is there anybody there to say how you are going to feed all those people, because if the food does not come quickly we ought to be very chary of accepting into our zone people from the Eastern parts of Germany?
I think we should do something more here at home than we are doing. We must get more of our men back from the Forces on to the land. Whereas the quota has been given (and I think that is probably too small) of 18,000 men under Class B out of the Forces, we have only got 4,000 back. I made a plea in this House that we might give those men in Class B the same amount of money payment—although one would not say the same amount of leave—as the men who had served the same time. Then I believe you would get these men to accept release under Class B which at present they are unwilling to accept. They say. "In three months time we can get a large amount of pay on our release." I really believe that the Government ought to do that and get these men out in greater numbers than they have so far been able to do under Class B. I must say some lack of co-ordination in a Government which always preaches planning, was shown when the Minister of Labour just about a day or two before the Minister of Food's announcement, declared he was going to call up 8,000 new men for the Army. This great planning might begin at home.
Another thing we could do is this—and I am sorry the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, is not in this House at the moment: There are large areas in this country still under Air Force or military occupation. There are a vast number of airfields that we had to have during the war. After all, we had a great part of
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the American bomber force here as well as our own. Service Departments are still holding on to a large number of those tracts of land. I know of one in Dorset. A deputation led by the Leader of the Opposition and my noble friend Viscount Cranborne went to the Secretary of State for War. The reply of the War Office, last October or November, was, "We are going to take a survey of all these things. We are sorry, but we cannot release any of them until the survey is complete." Well, let them get on with that survey and we shall be able to have the food.
Let us get the land out of the sterile occupation of Service Departments who are not using it. We look for some move in that direction. I remember in the past, when we were losing an immense amount of shipping from submarines, we had set up what was called (and there was no secret about it, I think) the "Battle of the Atlantic Committee" at the head of which sat the Prime Minister, Mr. Churchill. He went into all these matters, as to whether there were enough bombers, what destroyers there were and things of that sort, with all these Ministers there, and they had to get on with the job. Let the Government do something of the sort in regard to this food position, which is an urgent matter. Let them get a similar Committee formed. Let the Prime Minister call in his Secretary of State for War and say "What are you doing about these things?" Let them get on with the job and really see whether we cannot produce some more in this country.
There is one other thing, if I may just say a word about the meat and dairy products position. I believe it was about meat that my noble friend Lord Woolton asked his question. I do not know quite why an extra appeal was necessary either to Australia or to New Zealand in regard to meat. Those two great Dominions have always done wonderful things for us in our food supplies, and I would be second to none in giving them great thanks and great credit for all they have done. Both of them signed a four years' contract while I was Minister of Food, and I signed on behalf of this country, to send us all their exportable surpluses of meat and dairy produce. I should have thought they were doing it without any additional appeal. At any rate, they have promised it, and of course I hope we shall see that we get it.

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The extra amounts that they have to give are, of course, largely due to the fact that the vast numbers of American soldiers, sailors and airmen they were feeding now no longer are being fed by those Dominions.
I want just to come for a moment or two to rice. The position has long been difficult, as is perfectly well known. One of the great difficulties is that the Indian population grows by about 5,000,000 persons every year, and they do not expand their food production in proportion to the growth of their population. They always in the past depended upon Burma for sending them a large part of their rice. On the day when Rangoon fell I agreed with the then Secretary of State for War (at least, he agreed with me on my application for it) to let some officers out of the Army at once to form up into a rice team and to go to Burma immediately to see what rice could be collected from there. I should like to know how this Mission has fared. They would probably have put in for barges; they would probably have put in for other forms of transport—lorries and things of that sort; and it is likely that they would have asked for the machinery in some rice mills.
I should like to see whether they have done so, whether they have got what they asked for, and whether we have got any rice out of Burma. I am glad that more active steps are now being taken to get the rice from Siam. The Siamese owe' it to us. As a matter of fact they have got off extremely lightly for declaring war against us, and we ought to insist in every possible way on getting that 1,200,000 tons of rice out of Siam. Here, I will put in a little plea for one of our Colonies. I know the Indians, the Government, and so on, clamour pretty loudly; but there is another Colony, which has stood by us extremely well in the war, which has produced practically all the rubber, all the tea and all the copra that we got—and that is Ceylon.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: I am afraid I omitted it; and we are making special efforts with regard to Ceylon.
LORD LLEWELLIN: I am extremely glad, because they have had a much better rationing system than any other place in our Empire—I mean any Colony
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—and better rationing than India. They have served us extremely well. Therefore I am very glad of the noble Viscount's assurance that they are being supported in that way. Then, my noble friend Lord Woolton referred to orange juice. I am awfully frightened that orange juice will suddenly go the same way as dried egg. It is most valuable for the children in this country. It cannot be allowed to go the same way as dried egg.
When I was Minister of Food I took up with the Colonial Office the question of making concentrated orange juice in Jamaica, and I had an expert mission sent out to Palestine to try to teach the Jewish growers of oranges out there how to concentrate and bottle their juice. I also took this matter up, personally, with Field-Marshal Smuts when he was paying one of his visits to this country. This is vital to our people, and it is of great benefit to the Colonies and the Dominions which undertake the supply of the juice. You need not have full-size graded oranges to make it. You can use the small oranges which you do not want to sell under your brand name. I should like to know how these projects are getting on; whether we have had any report from Jamaica, Palestine, or South Africa? As I say, this is a matter of vital importance. I realized that we might become hard up for dollars, and I had this done in the sterling area so that we might never be short of orange juice if we could help it. I followed the policy of looking ahead in connexion with the supply of that vital food for our young persons. Lord Woolton started it, and I continued it. I have not the slightest doubt my successor is continuing it as well.
Now, as to the oils and fats position. The question was asked whether the Americans were on the same fat ration as ourselves. When I was in Washington last Easter, I made that arrangement. I would like to know whether it has lasted, for we then made an arrangement, going over to June 30 of this year, by which we gradually liquidated our stocks, and at the same time they promised to come down to the same consumption figure per head as we. Are they coming down to the seven ounces just as we are? We all realize that the fats ration is an absolutely vital one, which you have got to watch all the time, and I would like to know whether that arrangement, which

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I made for the whole year up to June 30 next, has been broken or kept.
I am very sorry that we have not succeeded in getting ground nuts from India. I had a bit of tough bargaining to do about that as well. The Indians, in the old days, never ate their own ground nuts. The Government of India, after a famine, tried to persuade the people to eat their ground nuts rather than starve, but they showed preference for cereals rather than ground nuts, and I made an arrangement, sanctioned by my colleagues, by which every ship which took wheat into India was to come back tilled up with ground nuts for the people here. I take it, in view of what is said, that they are now getting wheat and we are not getting the ground nuts. That was not the arrangement I made. I must say that I would have done my best to stick to the arrangement that they made with me.
I thank your Lordships for being so patient with me. I have asked a number of questions, and, in some respects, I hope, I have been helpful. In others, I think I may have been critical. But it is proper to be critical in the right way. The main criticism that I have to make is similar to that made by Lord Lindsay. As one who watches these things with, still, a certain amount of inside knowledge, I was, quite frankly, of the opinion that there could not be very much going wrong with the cereals position when I noted that the Minister of Agriculture announced, publicly, to the National Farmers' Union, some time in December, that there would be no directions for wheat. Similarly, when the Minister of Labour made his announcement, I thought that the supply position there must be all right. They were, I gathered, still going to call up people from the land. With the background of knowledge that I possessed, I was very much reassured. And many other people in the country must have been reassured also. But what has happened now does show a lack of co-ordination between different Ministers in the Government, and it has largely, I am certain, got them into their present difficulties. I hope that that will be remedied. But I believe—and here is just one parting shot—that it would be far better for this country if the members of the Cabinet devoted less time to putting their ideologies into the various
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Bills that are coming before us, and devoted more of it to the practical administrative problems which so affect the lives of every one of us. Let them look after the welfare of our people first and all the time, and let these ideologies, when they come, merely be added thereto.
6.7 p.m.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, my first duty, I feel, is to thank the noble Lord who has just sat down for his very helpful speech, the points of which I am sure will be taken notice of by the various departments in the Government which are concerned. I, of course, am not going to make any reference to his parting shot. We usually expect such shots—they are so familiar that I think that in this case I am not called upon to say anything. Perhaps I might dispose of the one or two questions which he has put, as they are still fresh in the minds of the House. The noble Lord's first question was with regard to the Mission to the United States. He wanted to know whether there has been any change. There is no change in the position in that respect since the noble Lord was at the Ministry. It has not been necessary so far, and it really does depend on the settlement of the Loan to a large extent as to what attitude will be taken in the future in that particular respect.
As to the noble Lord's question with regard to what is coming from Russia and so forth, I am not in a position to give any answer. No doubt notice will be taken of his remarks in the right quarters. Then he put a question about aerodromes. I can give him the assurance that that is a matter which is under constant discussion, and a good deal is being done with regard to it. Much is being done to get these aerodromes clear as soon as possible. A further question, of which he was good enough to give me notice in advance, related to the rice position in Burma. His first question was, What have the Rice Party done in Burma? There is no Rice Unit in Burma like the Siam Rice Unit. The procurement of rice in that country has so far been handled entirely by the Civil Affairs Service. That Service will, however, in the near future, hand over this responsibility to the Government of Burma, which has set tip a Rice Project composed of officials and of representatives of the commercial community, which will

819
take over charge once the Civil Affairs Service transfers responsibility. Full and careful preparations for the actual taking over and for carrying on the business of procurement of rice on the conclusion of responsibility of the Civil Affairs Service have been made by this Rice Project.
LORD LLEWELLIN: Whatever they call themselves civil affairs, military or not, they were selected men because they knew about the procurement of rice and I want to know whether they asked for it or got it.
LORD AMMON: The only assurance I can give the noble Lord is that an important part of the project is the procurement of stores in connexion with getting out the maximum amount of rice and that is understood to be well advanced. That is all the information I have to hand. With regard to this question of Siam the total quantities of rice shipped or loaded or for which tonnage has been arranged up to February 5 is 147,000 tons. With regard to his further question as to lorries and barges, I am sure that the noble Lord knows that the Burma rice traffic largely depends upon water traffic more than upon lorries. The South-East Asia Command is doing everything possible to supply craft suitable for the purpose. The total number of vessels of all kinds, but not necessarily solely for the purpose of moving rice, is 570 and there are more to come. I think that answers the specific points he put to me except one question with regard to the fat ration. So far as we know the agreement holds good and it is working and we have no specific information to the contrary. May I turn to the—
LORD LLEWELLIN: I did ask about the scheme for orange juice in Jamaica.
LORD AMMON: Thank you. I had forgotten that. I think I can give the noble Lord a satisfactory answer with regard to it. He himself referred to certain projects he had when he was at the Ministry of Food. I can tell him that the plant has been sent out and should be there at any day now. It is hoped that it will soon be working and that quantities of concentrated orange juice will be available. I may say that the tests he put into operation were quite
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satisfactory and an agreement has been entered into with the Palestine Government that all the concentrated orange juice the fruit factories can produce is to be supplied to this country. Unfortunately, so far as Jamaica is concerned although we hope to purchase all their concentrated orange juice, the fruit crop has failed disastrously. We are hoping to get something from them but it will not be anything like what we anticipated.
Some doubt was thrown by the noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, on the various figures and statistics which had been supplied. So far as we know they were all supplied from official sources, but I think that he rather explained his own state of mind when he said that people who entered these discussions expected what they were looking for and that they were concerned to prove a case. We may take it that the noble Lord was concerned to prove a case that all these figures were wrong, although he did not give us any broad basis for his criticism of them. May I repeat some of them? The exportable surplus in various parts of the world in June, 1943, amounted to 46,000,000 tons of wheat, but in July, 1945, it was down to 22,000,000. The anticipated return for next June, owing to the various climatic and other failures, is down to 12,000,000. So you will see, as my noble friend Viscount Addison said at the beginning of this debate, the position is really a very serious one and there is a great deal of difference to-day in comparison with the conditions when the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, presided so excellently—and we are all indebted to him for what he did—over his particular Department.
In those days there was a small group of food exporting countries, namely, the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, and we were the main recipients. Occasionally some went to India, but Europe and the Middle East were largely cut off. That enabled us to build up an amount of supplies which would not have otherwise been available to this country, and to that extent I think the noble Lord might have extended a little more sympathy to his successor as to the difficulties he appears to have inherited. The noble Lord, Lord Cherwell, raised the question of taste in bread. That is a matter I am not going to enter into. So far as I am concerned, whatever the

821
experts may say, I do not like it. That is one of the things on which I object to having something good done for me. I am quite incorrigible on that. I hope I have not upset any of the noble Lords so far as that is concerned, but I know that that view is shared by a good many other persons.
The question of home production has also been raised. It was mentioned by Lord Teviot and also by Viscount Bledisloe, whom I should like to thank for some very useful suggestions that he made in a very constructive speech. But it is to be remembered that, after all, one cannot visualize or work out the main pattern of agriculture for the year 1946. It has to be worked out in 1946 for the summer of 1947 and largely the plan has been laid down and even the noble Lord himself had some part in this in relation to America. Certain steps were taken in that direction which afterwards proved a failure, not through any fault of his or through any misunderstanding on his part, but through the climatic conditions which ruined the crops. So the problem is one of movement rather than of supply. That is a matter over which we have no control and we can only hope that next season will give us a better result than has been the position hitherto. Lord Bledisloe asked a question about the Argentine and whether we had done anything to obtain maize from there. The Government have been in close touch with those concerned in the Argentine. It has to be recognized that there are many competitors in the same market and there can be no certainty as to the size of the crop, but the Government have put in a claim with a view to getting as large a share as it is possible for us to obtain. He also asked a question about the growing of rye. Rye is being grown on lands not suitable for wheat. There cannot be a very large quantity. That is all that can be said about that.
I should like to join the deserved chorus of praise which met the maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Rusholme. It fills us with the expectation of having his advice in the future. He raised the question of the distribution of points for rationed goods to traders on the basis of 1936 to 1937 turnover adjustment. On that matter the Ministry of Food issues to traders figures of population changes from time to time and asks them to adjust allocations to meet them. That, I think,
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is the answer to the noble Lord in that respect.
LORD LLEWELLIN: May I interrupt? I think that really was the system that met the case of all those people. It was the general allocation that was increased to the districts where the population had grown. That always has been the position.
LORD AMMON: I thank the noble Lord very much. Then the noble Lord also raised the question of dried eggs. We were all rather tired and sick of these. One does remember—I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, will remember—that he had to reduce the price in order to get people to take them and to eat them.
LORD WOOLTON: Quite right.
LORD AMMON: They came down from 1s. 9d to 1s. 3d. It is only, I think, since this unfortunate announcement that everybody has found the value of dried egg. I think one need not be very much troubled as to whether it is going to last very much longer. With regard to the noble Lord, Lord Rusholme's suggestion that we should have more broadcasts on the lines of the dulcet tones of Lord Woolton, that might have a good deal to do with it. It all depends. It all depends how people look at these things. I remember in 1943 we had a discussion in the other House which arose on an occasion when our arms had suffered some reverse, and the criticism was raised that sufficient information had not been given to the Commons, that had that been done they would have been better prepared for it. I ventured to join in that discussion and went so far as to say that I believed that were all the facts told to the people of this country they would be prepared to go on bread and water in order to secure victory. Well, between half-past two and three in the morning my telephone bell rang and I was no better pleased when a stranger in an angry voice said: "Who the hell are you to say we are prepared to go on bread and water in order to win this so-and-so war?" There are points of view different from our own which we are forced to take note of.
I have covered, I think, most of the points, because they were covered in anticipation first of all by my noble friend Viscount Addison. In the main they

823
mostly consisted of helpful suggestions that came from subsequent speakers. The position so far as the wheat supplies are concerned is one over which neither this nor any other Government can have any possible control. It is well to remember, too, that the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, was only able to store up his supplies, because the supplies of wheat came into this country on the understanding—I think he will agree with this—that there should be supplies sent to the liberated countries as and when we were in a position to send them. So that we were under an obligation to meet some of the needs of those countries which stood in great necessity.
LORD LLEWELLIN: Of course that only applied to an earmarked portion of our stocks that had come from our purchases. That was the position with regard to that. It never reduced it below our minimum here.
LORD AMMON: All I am concerned to say is that you cannot say that all the wheat that came pouring into this country during the war years was meant solely for our own consumption. We were under an obligation to send some part of these supplies overseas. As to whether or not the nation is prepared to deplete further stores in order to meet the needs of other countries is a matter for the consideration of the Government and Parliament itself. I am sure much good has been done by the discussion we have had here, and the opportunity given to bring the facts before the House itself. We can only hope that better luck—if that is the right term—will await us so far as our future endeavours to raise the necessary crops and supplies are concerned. It is like reading a chapter out of Job; when you have got catastrophes they fall one after the other, and the last one came when the frost affected the oranges in Spain only quite recently. That I understand is not going to make a very great difference to the supply of oranges and orange juice that will be available in this country.
6.35 p.m.
LORD WOOLTON: Since the Motion is in my name, your Lordships will allow me, I hope, to withdraw it. In doing so, there are one or two things that I would like to say. I will be very brief. I hope that my observations were not unsympathetic. Indeed I have—and this is not
824
a figure of speech—the greatest sympathy for the difficulties the Ministry of Food is in. The whole tenor of my speech was devoted to one thing it is not public relations that are going to matter. I do beg the Ministry to do what they can to make future provision for building up stock piles in this country because that is a safeguard against any future calamities, and calamities will obviously occur.
The noble Viscount, Lord Addison, refused to give some figures regarding the wheat supplies. I think he was probably quite right. The reason I asked for those figures was that I thought it might be possible for him to give them, and in the process of giving them—of course in peace-time normally they were common knowledge—to give a re-assurance. If my words count for anything with the public, I do beg them not to get into a panic about wheat, about flour, and about other foods that are not on the ration. In times of scarcity there are no supplies that can stand a panic run, and the public have been so good about these things in the past that I do hope they will trust the Government with regard to this wheat position. I hope they will not begin themselves to hoard, because if they did they would do themselves harm and would render a great disservice to the country. I only asked for that information because it might be that the Minister thought it wise to give it. If he does not think it wise, I do not take any ill view either of him for not doing it or about the position of the stocks in the country.
Let me deal with one personal matter. I am sure the last thing in the world the noble Viscount, who leads the House, would do is to misquote anybody. He said I referred to the welled civil servants. I looked it up and what I said was the people "in well-fed Washington." I was not referring to the civil servants themselves as being well fed, because, as the noble Viscount said, they are a body of gentlemen who rendered a very great service to this country. I am sure the noble Viscount will forgive me for taking him up on this point, because the last thing in the world I would wish is for them to think that I am personally ungrateful for the immense service they rendered to the country during the time when I was a Minister. But I do say it must be very difficult for people who

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have been out there for two or three years—one of them who had been out for four years came back to see me only the other day—living in an atmosphere so different from this country to know precisely what is happening here.
6.30 p.m.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, I intervene for one moment to thank the noble Lord for what he said about stocks, and to take the opportunity of saying that there is no need whatever for any alarm at all. It was simply that my right honourable friend preferred not to give the tonnage of stocks, which was quite satisfactory in view of all the situation. There is no need at all for any uneasiness, and there is certainly no likelihood of the rationing of bread.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

WAR-TIME AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTION.
6.31 p.m.
LORD BEAVERBROOK: My Lords, I beg to ask the question standing in my name.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether they adhere, without qualification, to the statement of the Earl of Huntingdon that the increase in agricultural production during the war was seventy per cent.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON): My Lords, a complete answer to this question requires some explanation. The measurement of Changes in the total output of British agriculture is no simple matter. It is easy enough to measure the change in output of a single commodity, for example, potatoes, or milk or eggs; but we cannot add tons of potatoes to gallons of milk or to numbers of eggs. We must have a common standard; and the answer will depend on the standard chosen. Five such standards are available, namely, money value, calories, proteins, shipping space, and crude weight.
Before the war, when profitability was the main consideration, it was usual to take the standard of money. We valued all the items, added them together, and
826
compared the totals from one year to the other. In order to eliminate the effect of changes in prices, we valued the output in different years at the prices in a standard year. On this latter basis, the increase in total net output from our own soil between the period 1936–39 and the year 1943–44, was 30 per cent. This 30 per cent relates to the net output. The increase in the gross output was considerably less. The difference between the gross and the net output consists mainly of imported feeding stuffs, live stock, and seeds. Before the war, British agriculture depended on imports of feeding stuffs to the extent of about 8,000,000 tons per annum. Farmers have now largely replaced these imports by their own production, which has, indeed, been one of the principal accomplishments of British agriculture during the war. I should like to stress the importance of distinguishing between gross and net output in this connexion, because I notice that in some quarters it has been overlooked.
In wartime, the money value of our agricultural output was of less importance than its food value, or than the amount of shipping space that was saved by the increase in output from our soil. On the basis of shipping space, the net output increased by about 120 per cent between the period 1936 to 1939 and the year 1942–43. In view of the desperate need to save every possible kind of shipping space during the war, this was a highly satisfactory achievement.
Food value can be measured on the basis of protein or of calories, a standard which was of fundamental importance in wartime, and is still of the greatest importance. On the basis of protein, the net output has been increased by about 80 per cent. On the basis of calories, the net output has been increased by about 70 per cent., and as the calory is the best single unit of measurement of food values over a wide range of commodities, and as food values have been all important during the war, the figure of 70 per cent was used by the late Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Hudson, and has usually been used in discussions on this question.
LORD BEAVERBROOK: The noble Lord will agree that his statement of a few days ago requires considerable qualification.
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: I do not think the figure requires any qualification, but I admit it is based on calories or food values.

CONSOLIDATION BILLS.
6.36 p.m.
VISCOUNT MERSEY: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in the name of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor.
Moved, That a Committee of six Lords be appointed to join with a Committee of the House of Commons as a joint Committee on Consolidation Bills in the present Session:
That the Lords following be named of the Committee:—

M. Reading,

V. Southwood,

L. Fairfax of Cameron,

L. O' Hagan,

L. Tweedsmuir,

L. Calverley,

That such Committee have power to agree with the Committee of the House of Commons in the appointment of a Chairman. —(Viscount Mersey.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith, and to request them to appoint six members to be joined with the said Committee.

TRUNK ROADS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Walkden.)
LORD CORNWALLIS: My Lords, before this Bill finally completes its passage into law, may I, on behalf of the County of Kent and the Rochester Bridge Wardens, thank the Government, not only for the courteous way in which they received the deputation that went to see them about that very ancient Trust, but also for the manner in which it was dealt with in another place and the way in which it has been received here. I can assure you, speaking not only as a Rochester Bridge Warden but as His Majesty's Lieutenant of the County, that the whole County is extremely grateful to you.
On Motion, Bill read 3a, with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.

DISTRIBUTION OF INDUSTRY (DEVELOPMENT AREAS) ORDER, 1946.
Order dated 16th February, 1946, made by the Board of Trade under the Distribution of Industry Act, 1945, laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the Special Orders Committee.
House adjourned at twenty-two minutes before seven o'clock.