Sitting of 7 November 1945

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter past Two o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS
WADEBRIDGE RURAL DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
WEAVER NAVIGATION BILL
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  ROYAL NAVY

    Demobilisation
    Squadron-Leader Sir Gifford Foxasked the First Lord of the Admiralty when he expects that the releases from the Navy will have reached a state where officers and ratings in the same groups are demobilised simultaneously.
    The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. A. V. Alexander):I regret I am unable to forecast when this state will be reached, but the hon. and gallant Member may rest assured that it will not be delayed one day later than is necessary.
    Sir G. Fox: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is an unfair class distinction here which is greatly resented in the Navy?
    Mr. Alexander: No, Sir. I am unaware of anything of that sort. It is simply a matter of fact, that the officers are of such different ages that we have to let all the older ages out first, and therefore in order to maintain the Service we must work in the way we are doing.
    Mr. Pickthorn: Is it an example of the new method of planning that that fact was not seen beforehand?
    Mr. Pickthornasked the First Lord of the Admiralty how far and why the release of instructor officers is behind that of executive officers and what is being done to remove the difference; and what groups of instructor officers are to be released at what dates before the middle of 1946.
    Mr. Alexander: The answer to this Question is unavoidably long. I will, therefore, with the hon. Member's permission circulate it in the Official Report.
    Following is the answer:
    The release of instructor officers is somewhat behind that of executive officers but by the end of the year the difference should be no more than one group. The main reason for this difference is that instructor officers are required to perform important duties in connection with the Educational and Vocational Training Scheme. With a view to removing this impediment to the release of instructor officers large numbers of officers of other branches are being trained to assist them in these duties. The future programme of releases is complicated by the fact that the groups in the middle 20's are comparatively large. Progress must depend largely on the effectiveness of the training scheme which is now well under way and the most that I can say about the rate of release between now and mid 1946 is that the release of the large groups in the middle 20's should be well advanced.

    W.R.N.S., St. Merryn Aerodrome
    Mr. Stokesasked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many W.R.N.S. are now stationed at St. Merryn aerodrome, Cornwall; and when this number will be reduced.
    Mr. Alexander:Twenty-six W.R.N.S. officers and 643 ratings are now employed at the R.N. Air Station, St. Merryn. The end of the war has brought no change in the function of this particular air station and no reduction of the numbers employed is at present envisaged.
    Mr. Stokes:Is my right hon. Friend aware that, whatever his reports may be, the fact is that there is a very great change in the activities, and that the general complaint of people all round is

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    that there are a large number of girls doing absolutely nothing and wasting their time?
    Mr. Alexander:I have often had reports of that kind before, but when I investigated them I found that there was no foundation of fact in them. This is one of the largest Royal Naval air stations in existence and it has a permanent peace rôle of important training. If I took the W.R.N.S. away, I would have to replace them with men.
    Mr. Stokes: If I submit a report to my right hon. Friend, will he have it properly examined, unlike some other Ministers?
    Mr. Alexander: The Royal Navy is always efficient.

    R.N.A. Station, Culrose (Road Material)
    Mr. Stokesasked the First Lord of the Admiralty in view of the decision not to proceed further with the Culrose R.N.A. Station, Cornwall, whether he is aware that loads of clinker, stone and tarmac are still being delivered to the site in spite of the fact that this material is needed for the repair of local roads; and if he will now terminate this waste of road material.
    Mr. Alexander:My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension in thinking that it has been decided not to proceed further with this station. It is essential to finish certain parts of the work to prevent serious deterioration, and this applies to the partially completed roads and runways for which this material is required.
    Mr. Stokes:Why is it necessary to complete roads and runways when it has been decided not to complete the aerodrome for some years yet? Is my right hon. Friend aware that all this material and labour is urgently wanted elsewhere, and that there are complaints all round regarding the waste that is taking place?
    Mr. Alexander: My hon. Friend is really never satisfied.
    Mr. Stokes: No.
    Mr. Alexander: We had 1,500 men at work on this aerodrome. I have released 900, specially on his representation, for building work. Unless we complete roads which have been constructed in their foundations and seal up buildings which now require weather-proofing, public
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    money will be wasted. We intend to proceed to a partial use of the aerodrome as soon as it is finished.
    Mr. Stokes:While I appreciate that the buildings must be sealed up, is my right hon. Friend aware that the general feeling is abroad that the contractors are making a very good thing out of carrying stuff to the site which will not be wanted for years?
    Mr. Alexander: I do not accept that as a fact.
    Mr. Stokes: It is true.

    River Hamble (Mooring Sites)
    Mr. Thomas Lewisasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware of the representations made by the Southampton Harbour Board since April last and of its communication on 13th October, to which no reply has yet been received, regarding the continued use of the River Hamble by naval craft, thus preventing a return to its use by a large number of private yacht and boat owners, hindering normal trading, including yacht and boat building, repairing and servicing in the port of Southampton; and will he consider issuing instructions that naval craft shall cease to use the River Hamble and the mooring sites therein, before the commencement of the yachting season in April next year.
    Mr. Alexander:I understand the desire of the Southampton Harbour Board to secure the return of their moorings and mooring sites in the River Hamble. Twelve moorings previously in naval use are being released immediately. Every endeavour will be made to release the others as soon as possible; but it may prove necessary to retain many of them at least until June next. My hon. Friend will appreciate that there are now large numbers of naval vessels in this country whose disposal is bound to be a long process. The problem is complicated by manpower difficulties which require the concentration of vessels where they can most conveniently be maintained. The Southampton Harbour Board were informed in this sense in a letter dated 2nd November.
    Mr. Lewis:Is my right hon. Friend aware that the total removal of 12 vessels is useless, as there are 200 vessels moored there, and is he aware that if the vessels

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    are not removed by April next, the position will be serious?
    Mr. Alexander:I am anxious to do all I can to release the moorings, but my hon. Friend must remember the difficulties I have. There are hundreds of landing craft and other vessels which, unless we can dispose of them in the public interest, will be a great public waste. I must find accommodation for them somewhere, but I will release as many moorings as I can.
    Mr. Lewis: Is my right hon. Friend aware that if he waits until 200 vessels have been disposed of, the moorings may not be released for years?

    Pet Animals (Importation)
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the lack of suitable food and climatic conditions in this country, he will take steps to prevent officers and ratings in the Royal Navy from bringing home to this country monkeys and other similar pets.
    Mr. Alexander: Civilians are allowed to import these pets and I see no reason to deny the Navy this traditional and simple pleasure.
    Sir T. Moore:Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that I make no reflection on the kind hearts of British sailors, but that I am merely trying to indicate that this climate is foul for such animals?
    Mr. Alexander: I should always be glad to receive detailed representations, but I have no doubt that the lower deck would make plenty of representations back.

    Danish Volunteers
    Mr. John Lewisasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will consider the position of Danish citizens who volunteered for service with the Royal Navy and who, on demobilisation, are being shipped back to Denmark immediately without having the benefit of the 56 days' leave with pay to which they understood they were entitled; and in view of the fact that some of these men are married to English women, will he take steps to ensure that fair treatment is accorded to them.
    Mr. Alexander: These men were given the option of being released immediately and repatriated, or of remaining in the Royal Navy until their age and service
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    groups were reached. They chose to be released, and became entitled to clothing benefit, service gratuities, and post war credits. Had they chosen to remain in the Service, they would have been entitled to 56 days' leave with pay in addition. They were all granted 10–14 days leave whilst awaiting demobilisation.

    Operations (Official Information)
    Sir Ronald Rossasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that owing to security precautions the public is imperfectly informed as to the services of the British Navy; and whether in consequence, he will authorise the issue of a brief official account of its principal actions and operations at an early date.
    Mr. Alexander: While it is true that Naval operations in war present peculiar security problems, I cannot agree with the first part of the Question. During the war the Admiralty, in spite of the special difficulties, issued over 5,000 communications to the Press, and arranged for the publication of eight official books on Naval operations, besides which the B.B.C. broadcast 400 Naval items. These were in addition to communiques issued by Supreme Commands. With regard to the second part of the Question, certain special accounts of Naval operations are in preparation, and these will be published as soon as possible.
    Sir R. Ross: Will the right hon. Gentleman take care not to make the Senior Service too silent?
    Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the public is also informed of the important and hazardous work still being performed by the Royal Navy in mine-sweeping?
    Mr. Alexander:We have already mentioned that on two or three occasions, but I think we might do so again. The British public has great confidence in the fact that the Royal Navy is there.
    Mr. Callaghan:Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is considerable feeling in the Navy that some of its doings are not recorded as adequately as they might be, and that this is because of a comparative lack of efficiency in the Press Division of the Admiralty?
    Mr. Alexander: I do not think that, because we have a much smaller Press Division than most Departments, they are any less efficient.

    War Gratuities
    Mr. McKieasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if it is intended to afford the next-of-kin of members of the Royal Navy under 18 years of age, who sacrificed their lives in the war, the same rate of gratuity as that afforded to the relatives of other men.
    Mr. Alexander:War gratuities paid in respect of deceased R.N. personnel are calculated on the same basis as if the gratuities had been paid to the personnel themselves. Boys who have been drafted to sea are eligible for the same rate of war gratuity as seamen of similar war service.
    Mr. McKie: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is considerable feeling on the matter among the relatives of these boys under 18, and will he give the matter close consideration?
    Mr. Alexander: If the boys are under 18 when they go to sea, with the ordinary risks of sea and war, they get the same gratuities.

    Geographical Handbooks
    Mr. Christopher Shawcrossasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he proposes now to make available for public use the Admiralty geographical handbooks produced during the war by the Naval Intelligence Division in collaboration with the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge; and if he will take steps to see that the series is completed so that every country will be covered by these works.
    Mr. Alexander: These books are available for public use in the sense that their issue includes certain institutions, organisations, and individuals, who can use them to the public advantage. The question of sale to the general public is under consideration. As to the second part of the Question, the series was produced to meet the requirements of the Services, and the scope was limited to what was essential for this purpose.
    Mr. Shawcross:Is my right hon. Friend aware that very large sums of money were spent and an immense amount of physical effort made by the university members
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    concerned in the production of this series which will be largely thrown away unless the series is completed and made available to the public?
    Mr. Alexander: I have said that the question of sale to the general public is under consideration.

    Service Personnel, Far East (Repatriation)
    Brigadier Lowasked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many men and women of the Services at present stationed in India, Burma or the Far East, he plans to bring home in ships of the Royal Navy in each of the months of December, January, February and March in the coming winter.
    Mr. Alexander: As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

    Following is the answer:

    November, 1945

    15,700

    December, 1945

    12,700

    January, 1946

    6,300

    February. 1946

    8,100

    March, 1946

    6,300

    Total

    49,100

    Requisitioned Properties, Maidstone
    Mr. Bossomasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will publish in the Official Report an exact list of the properties that his Department has under requisition in the Maidstone Parliamentary division.
    Mr. Alexander: Yes, Sir. The list was published in the Official Report of Monday last, columns 1040–1.
    Mr. Bossom: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that every item in this list, except one, was an industrial space, and that their use is very essential to Maidstone, and will he make every effort to release these properties as soon as possible?
    Mr. Alexander: The President of the Board of Trade is saying that to me about every district in which the Navy happens to be, and I am doing my best to meet him.

    Inter-Services Topographical Department
    Mr. Christopher Shawcrossasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether

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    he will consider plans to reconstitute the Inter-Services Topographical Department so as to make this work available in time of peace, not only to the Service and other Government Departments, but also to industrial and commercial concerns.
    Mr. Alexander:Yes, Sir. This matter is already under consideration.

    W.R.N.S. (Ceylon)
    Commander Nobleasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that about 100 W.R.N.S. left this country for Ceylon as recently as 1st October; and whether, observing that it is the intention to withdraw by the end of the year all W.R.N.S. stationed in Ceylon, such drafting has now ceased.
    Mr. Alexander:I am aware of the recent draft of W.R.N.S. to Ceylon but I have no knowledge of any intention to withdraw all W.R.N.S. stationed in Ceylon by the end of this year.
    Commander Noble: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that about half of this party were disembarked at Malta and returned to this country?
    Mr. Alexander: No, Sir; I would like to have notice of that question. All I can say is that the Women's Royal Naval Service who have been despatched on this route are sent out—at least when they are despatched—to relieve W.R.N.S. who have been demobilised.

  JUSTICES OF THE PEACE (MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT)
  Mr. Keelingasked the Attorney-General how many Members of Parliament sit as magistrates in their own constituencies.
  The Solicitor-General (Major Sir Frank Soskice):This information is, I am afraid, not available and to obtain it would necessitate making inquiries from the clerks to nearly 1,000 Benches.
  Mr. Keeling: If I send the learned Attorney-General Press reports of two recent cases in which Members of Parliament are said to have sat as magistrates in their constituencies, will he investigate the matter further, especially as the Lord Chancellor is opposed to Members of Parliament being appointed as magistrates in their own constituencies?
  The Solicitor-General:As the hon. Gentleman knows, this is peculiar to the province of my noble Friend the Lord Chancellor, but I will certainly bring the matter to the attention of my noble Friend, who will communicate with him.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman:How many Members of Parliament on this side of the House are not magistrates only because the selection committees are dominated by their political opponents?

  LAW OF DEFAMATION (COMMITTEE)
  Mr. Gallacherasked the Attorney-General if he is aware of the feeling that exists in favour of the overhaul of the libel laws; and what steps does he propose to take in this connection.
  The Solicitor-General: I would refer my hon. Friend to the Committee appointed by the Lord Chancellor on 8th March, 1939, with the following terms of reference:
  "To consider the law of defamation and to report what changes in the existing law, practice, and procedure relating to the matter are desirable."
  This Committee, which is presided over by Lord Porter held a series of sittings in the early summer of 1939, but its deliberations had to be suspended during the war. The Committee resumed its sittings in May of this year, but have not yet reported.
  Mr. Gallacher:Will the Solicitor-General consider speeding up the work of this Committee, in view of the recent case where a journalist was very heavily penalised for reporting the statement of a Cabinet Minister, while a questionable character, according to the Cabinet Minister, got a certificate of patriotism, a very undesirable state of affairs as far as the law is concerned?

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Transport Aircraft (India and S.E.A.C.)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air how many Dakota or other transport aircraft, other than replacements, have been transferred from the United Kingdom or Europe to India and S.E.A.C. since VE-Day.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Strachey): The number of transport aircraft in Air Command South-East Asia has increased by 45 per cent, since VE-Day. In addition, a number of bomber and maritime squadrons in South-East Asia have recently been employed on transport and supply duties. The number of aircraft established for transport services from United Kingdom to India is now more than four times greater than it was on VE-Day.
    Mr. Driberg:Can we take it from that reply that my hon. Friend is now satisfied that the transport bottleneck in that part of the world is being dealt with adequately?
    Mr. Strachey: I would not like to say, with so much transport being used.
    Captain Prescott: Would it be possible to give figures instead of percentages?
    Mr. Strachey: No, Sir, there are security objections to that.

    Demobilisation
    Mr. Rentonasked the Undersecretary of State for Air whether, in view of the discrepancy between the figures for Class C releases on compassionate grounds given by his Department on 22nd October and those given by the Ministry of Labour on 16th October for Class C release in September, namely, Army 3,202, R.A.F. 37, and R.N. 33, for period 1st September to 12th October, he will now make an up-to-date statement.
    Mr. Strachey: The figure given for Royal Air Force releases in Class C by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour referred to releases which had been recorded during the month of September. My own figures related to releases approved for the period 18th June to 22nd October. The number of Class C releases from the R.A.F. which had been approved up to the end of October was 2,142.
    Mr. Yorkasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air to what extent the shortage of uniformed personnel in the accounts section of the R.A.F. is being overcome; how many new entrants in this trade are required in order that their demobilisation may be equalised with the rest of the R.A.F.; and when this equality is expected to be attained.
    Mr. Anthony Nuttingasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what further steps are being taken to improve the rate of releases from the accountants branch of the R.A.F.
    Mr. Quintin Hoggasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he anticipates that the inequalities to which the accounts trade of the R.A.F. are subject in the matter of relief will have disappeared by 31st December; and, if not, by what date is it proposed to remove them.
    Mr. Wilfrid Robertsasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is satisfied that sufficient personnel are being trained in equipment and accountancy to even up release groups in these branches; and whether Kirkham is to be used for training any further personnel.
    Mr. Strachey:Five hundred and fifty additional accountant officers and 4,650 additional airmen for the accounting trades are being provided during the 12 months ending 31st May, 1946. To this end an intensive programme of training is proceeding, at the rate of 65 officer entries a month, on a six weeks' course, and 170 airmen entries a week on a five weeks' course. We mean to increase these figures either by opening another school or by expanding Kirkham which is fully occupied. In addition, wherever possible, airmen mustered to other trades are being employed on routine accounting duties. We are thus doing our utmost to help the accountant trades, but I am afraid I cannot yet give a firm date for bringing-them up to the average rate of release—it will not now be by 31st December. This is a result of the speed up in the release of other trades. In general, the faster you go the more difficult it is to keep even as between trades.
    Mr. York:In view of the very disappointing reply which we have just heard, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he can state the total requirements of this branch, and whether he has. also taken into consideration the fact that some of the people who are now being retained may be demobilised before the end of the period which he has just given and thereby delay other later groups?
    Mr. Strachey: That, of course, is being considered. The figures I quoted would satisfy the needs before the increase in general release by four groups which I

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    announced; to meet that increase we are now training still more men for the accounts section.
    Mr. York: Will they ever catch up?
    Mr. Strachey: Yes, Sir.

    Accounts Section
    Mr. Yorkasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that because of the amount of overtime worked by the R.A.F. Accounts Section the personnel, while ordered to attend the one hour per day of E.V.T., which consists of general lectures, are not allowed to attend voluntary E.V.T. classes in subjects of use after demobilisation; and if he will take steps to have this altered.
    Mr. Strachey:Owing to pressure of work it is not always possible to spare airmen in the Accounts Section for E.V.T. in Service time. I am, however, issuing instructions that in such circumstances the men should not be compelled to attend the weekly—not daily—period of one hour's training in modern citizenship if this results in their being required to work additional overtime in their trade. I am making inquiries to see whether it may be possible to provide E.V.T. facilities for them if they desire to use them in their own time.
    Mr. York: Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that the whole of this Section is being subjected to most unfair treatment and will he take active steps to see that they are not forbidden to take part in the voluntary classes?
    Mr. Strachey:The Accounts Section has been subjected to very heavy pressure of work—that is perfectly true and inevitable—but we cannot provide them with E.V.T. facilities in Service time because they are so hard worked. We are now going to try and provide them with the opportunity for E.V.T. out of Service hours.
    Mr. Hogg: Has the hon. Gentleman considered the case of the man which was put to him some time ago where the Service authorities have offered E.V.T. service on condition that the man forwent his leave, and will he discourage that practice?
    Mr. Strachey: If it was a voluntary offer, the man was at liberty to refuse it, and I do not see any objection.
    Sir G. Fox: Is the Minister aware that they are not getting their day off a week?

    Requisitioned Houses, Scotland (Release)
    Major Guy Lloydasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that 117 houses are presently held on requisition in Scotland by his Department; and what steps are being taken to release these houses forthwith.
    Mr. Strachey:Yes, Sir. We are releasing houses in Scotland as fast as we can. Twenty-one of the 117 held are already in course of release; half should be gone by the end of this year, and some three-quarters by 31st March, 1946. The problems presented by the rest are under urgent examination.

    Hong Kong (Conditions)
    Sir Hugh Lucas-Toothasked the Under-Secretary of. State for Air whether he has considered complaints from men serving in the R.A.F. at Hong Kong that there is a shortage of cigarettes for them to purchase; that mail from England reaches them erratically; and whether he will take action to rectify these matters.
    Mr. Strachey: Members of the Royal Air Force were living under field service conditions in the first stage after the liberation of Hong Kong. But things are now improving. They can now buy N.A.A.F.I. supplies including 70 cigarettes a week, and there is now an air mail service three times a week.

    205 Group (Transfer)
    Mr. David Jonesasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air why 205 Group, R.A.F., complete with its squadrons and wings, is being transferred from Italy to some other field of overseas service.
    Mr. Strachey: This transfer is being made as part of the redeployment of the Royal Air Force.

    Radar Operators
    Mr. D. Jonesasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that large numbers of Radar operators in the R.A.F. are now redundant to requirements but are being held at their overseas stations with nothing useful to do; and, in view of the effect of this idleness on the morale of the men concerned, whether he will bring these men back to this country to enable them to visit their homes.
    Mr. Strachey:There is a surplus of Radar operators in one command—Mediterranean and Middle East. I am obtaining the proposals of the command for finding useful work for these men. It would not be practicable or fair to others to give these particular men special home leave.
    Mr. Jones: Does not the hon. Gentleman think that these men would be better employed in this country than wasting their time abroad?
    Mr. Strachey: Some men may be posted to this country, or elsewhere, overseas.
    Mr. Boothby: Then why not demobilise them?
    Mr. Strachey: Because you cannot demobilise them unless they are in the age and service group which has been reached. The hon. Member knows that.

    Deceased Pilots (Log Books)
    Mr. Harold Sutcliffeasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he will now give an assurance that the log books of all deceased pilots will ultimately be made available to their next-of-kin.
    Mr. Strachey:Yes, Sir. Certain legal formalities are now being completed, and an announcement will be made in the Press, probably before the end of the year.
    Mr. Sutcliffe: May I thank the hon. Gentleman for that decision, which will be very welcome?

    Class C Releases
    Viscount Hinchingbrookeasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that airmen, transferred to the United Kingdom by R.A.F., M.E.D.M.E., for Class C release, are being held by No. 2 Wing, R.A.F. Station, Hunsdon, Hertfordshire, pending posting to a home unit; and whether he will give authority to No. 2 Wing to deal with applications for release.
    Mr. Strachey:I am glad to announce that we have brought in a new system to ensure that members of the Royal Air Force are able to get to their homes quickly on returning from overseas for Class C release. Applications recommended by overseas commands are now sent to the Air Ministry and, on approval
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    there, the airman is sent direct to the dispersal centre in this country for immediate release.

    Personnel (Iceland)
    Lieut.-Colonel Hareasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is prepared to increase the existing basis of one period of leave in the year to two periods per year for service personnel in Iceland.
    Mr. Strachey:The complete tour of duty in Iceland, except for a crew, has not exceeded twelve months, with leave before leaving the United Kingdom, and on return. I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my reply of 10th October when I stated that it was hoped that the withdrawal of the R.A.F. Contingent from Iceland would be completed over the next six months.
    Lieut.-Colonel Hare:On the assumption that all these personnel are not withdrawn from Iceland, will the hon. Gentleman then be prepared to reconsider his reply?
    Mr. Strachey: I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman will find that they are withdrawn.

    Bomber Command (Headquarters)
    Mr. Sidney Shephardasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air the comparative figures of the strength of Bomber Command Headquarters at the height of the bomber offensive and at the present time.
    Mr. Strachey: The strength of Bomber Command headquarters at 1st April, 1945, was 1,622 Royal Air Force and Women's Auxiliary Air Force personnel of all ranks. The strength on 1st November was 1,534, but this includes nearly 500 men and women of all ranks who are primarily lodgers making temporary use of this good Service accommodation. The number of those who are anything but lodgers will now fall more rapidly.
    Mr. Shephard: In view of the fact that the operational role of Bomber Command is now finished, is not the Minister rather disturbed by the figures he has given of the present-day strength?
    Mr. Strachey: Has the hon. Member noticed that there is an additional 500 drop in the force employed at headquarters? They are merely accommo-

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    dating people doing other work, or rather units, in these headquarters.
    Sir Harold Webbe: Could not these lodgings be used for civilians rather than for R.A.F. personnel?
    Mr. Strachey: No, Sir, because it enables other civilian lodgings in the country to be vacated if these people are brought in.
    Sir W. Wakefield: Could the Under-Secretary say what all these people—not only the lodgers—are doing?
    Mr. Strachey: Bomber Command is very actively engaged in the trooping programme.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the Under-Secretary state if the figure he has given includes supernumerary personnel at Bomber Command headquarters?
    Mr. Strachey: I should need notice of that.

    Land (Occupation)
    Lieut.-Commander Joynson-Hicksasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what use is being made of the Earnley bombing range and the Selsey advanced landing grounds; and whether they can now be restored to food production.
    Mr. Strachey: This range and the landing grounds went out of use at the end of October. The range will be released when it has been cleared of unexploded missiles. I hope that the landing grounds can be freed at the same time.
    Mr. Turtonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air how many aerodromes involving how many acres have been derequisitioned since 8th May, 1945.
    Mr. Bossomasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he has yet-decided which of the service aerodromes can now be released and made available for fanning purposes.
    Mr. Strachey: Since 8th May derequisitioning has been completed or is in progress at 29 airfields, comprising 7,500 acres. A further 40,000 acres have been let for agricultural purposes. In addition, 78 airfields have been made available at the request of other Departments as storage depots and camps, thus enabling factories, private houses, schools and hotels
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    to be given up. Until the size and character of our post war air force are decided it will be impossible finally to choose which airfields are to be kept and which released.
    Mr. Turton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the country is disturbed by the fact that out of 600 airfields only 29 have been released, and is he further aware that this delay in derequisitioning is holding up both house building and food production?
    Mr. Strachey: No, Sir, only 29 may have been derequisitioned, but 78 more are being used by other Government Departments, which frees other and more important property.
    Mr. Bossom: Is the hon. Gentleman having the runways removed before the airfields are derequisitioned, so that they are available for agricultural purposes?
    Mr. Strachey: That differs in different cases.
    Mr. Bossom: What is the good of turning these airfields back if they cannot be used?
    Mr. Strachey: But the runways comprise a very small area of the whole airfield—[Hon. Members: "Oh"]—compared with the whole area of the field.
    Mr. Evelyn Walkden: What are the real reasons for holding on to satellite aerodromes, which apparently have no real purpose under present conditions?
    Mr. Strachey: I do not think that a satellite aerodrome is necessarily less suitable for permanent use than many of the parent ones which have only hutment buildings on them.

    Release Testimonials
    Wing-Commander Roland Robinsonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that many officers and other ranks in the R.A.F. are now forced to seek civilian employment with no recommendations other than their rank and decorations and a final testimonial from their last commanding officer who may only have known the person concerned for a short time; and whether he will assist officers and other ranks on release by giving them a certified true copy of their assessments throughout their service lives as a testimonial.
    Mr. Strachey: We are going to issue instructions authorising senior officers to supply written statements to officers, both R.A.F. and W.A.A.F. who have served under their command at any period and about whom they have adequate knowledge. Such statements should describe the character and special aptitudes of the officer.
    Airmen and airwomen leaving the Service on release are given a service and release book and a statement of service which provide similar information. The attention of commanding officers is being specially drawn to the necessity for completing these forms in such a way as to provide the maximum assistance to airmen and airwomen in their future careers. In addition, the commanding officer will be authorised to make a special statement about an airman or airwoman who is applying for a professional post.

    Special Duty Clerks
    Wing-Commander Robinsonasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware of the position of clerks, special duties, whose release groups are falling behind many other trades in the R.A.F.; that many of these men and women were part of the staffs of operations rooms and have since been transferred to other duties whilst retaining the classification of clerks, special duties, and that they are, in effect, filling the places of people in release groups later than their own; and whether he will take steps to remedy this grievance.
    Mr. Quintin Hoggasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what is the position and prospects of the trade of clerks, special duties, as regards release.
    Mr. Strachey: The whole of the surplus of clerks S.D. has been posted for duty against vacancies for clerks G.D. and to the accounting trades. This is one of the methods which we must use for evening out releases between trades. The release rate of special duties clerks is thus kept in line with that of general duties clerks; for November, they are two groups behind the average.
    Mr. Hogg: Can the hon. Gentleman say how they compare with accounts duties personnel?
    Mr. Strachey: Speaking from memory, I think they are six groups behind.
    Mr. Hogg: If that is so, why are they being posted to accounts duties?
    Mr. Strachey: To even out the rate and increase the rate of release in the accounts branch.

    Meteorological Offices
    Mr. McKinlayasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air if it is the intention of the Government to close down R.A.F. meteorological offices where the work is predominantly civilian in character and where, in many instances, the stations are given over almost exclusively to forecasts for farmers.
    Mr. Strachey:Local meteorological offices which are not required are being closed whether their work is mainly service or civilian. None of them gives forecasts for farmers. These forecasts are issued from the Central Forecast Station of the Meteorological Office.
    Mr. McKinlay: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the R.A.F. are performing the work of Colonial civil servants in British East Africa in these meteorological offices, and will he take steps to withdraw the personnel?
    Mr. Strachey: I must have notice of that question.

    Pensions and Grants
    Sir Gifford Foxasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air if he will issue a table showing the present maximum rates of pension for direct entry officers of the medical, general duties, dental, equipment, accounts, legal and music branches, reaching the substantive rank of flight-lieutenant, squadron-leader, wing-commander and group-captain, respectively, indicating in each case the number of years qualifying service; and a similar table for officers promoted from the ranks pre-September, 1939, and post-September,1939.
    Mr. Strachey:I am circulating a statement in the Official Report.
    Sir G. Fox:Will my hon. Friend study the table and consider whether it is fair that the promoted warrant officer, irrespective of the rank he reaches, should receive only one-third of the pension of the officer who is a direct entry officer?
    Mr. Strachey:Without expressing an opinion on that, I might say that the table refers only to the past, and not to the new scheme which will be brought in for the postwar Air Force.
    Following is the statement:

    COMPARATIVE TABLE SHOWING MAXIMUM RATES OF RETIRED PAY FOR OFFICERS OF ALL BRANCHES OF THE ROYAL AIR FORCE RETIRING IN RANKS FLIGHT LIEUTENANT TO GROUP CAPTAIN.

    Scales based on age and length of service

    Scales based on rank and length of service

    Scale based on length of service up to 25 years, thereafter in age and length of service

    Medical Branch.

    Dental Branch.

    General Duties Branch.

    Equipment and Accountant Branches.

    Legal Branches.

    Directors of Music.

    Airmen commissionedon or after 3.9.39 and Warrant Officers commissioned before 3.3.39.

    Warrant Officers commissioned before 3.9.39 have a reserved right to the under-mentioned scale if more favourable than the scale at columns 20–2.

    1.

    2.

    3.

    4.

    5.

    6.

    7.

    8.

    9.

    10.

    11.

    12.

    13.

    14.

    15.

    16.

    17.

    18.

    19.

    20.

    21.

    22.

    23.

    24.

    25.

    Rank.

    Max. rate of ret'd pay.

    Age at which max. can be reached.

    Service reqd. to qualify for max. rate.

    Max. rate of ret'd pay.

    Age at which max. can be reached.

    Service reqd. to qualify for max rate

    Max. rate of ret'd pay.

    Age at which max. can be reached.

    Service reqd. to qualify for max. rate.

    Max. rate of ret'd pay.

    Age at which max. can be reached.

    Service reqd.to qualify for max. rate.

    Max. rate of ret'd pay.

    Service in rank.

    Total service.

    Max. rate of ret'd pay.

    Service in rank.

    Total service reckonable for officers' ret'd pay (c).

    Max. rate of ret'd pay.

    Service in rank.

    Service reckonable for officers' ret'd pay (c).

    Max. rate of ret'd pay.

    Age at which max. can be reached.

    Service reckonable for officers' ret'd pay (c).

    Flight Lieut.

    £

    £

    £

    £

    £

    £

    £

    £

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    362

    42

    20

    317

    48

    21

    271½

    —

    25

    271½

    —

    25

    271½

    —

    25

    317

    55

    30

    Squadron Leader

    452½

    45

    20

    407½

    47

    20

    407½

    43

    21

    396

    51

    25

    407¼

    10

    27

    407¼

    10

    27

    407¼

    10

    27

    317

    55

    30

    Wing Commander

    543

    48

    21

    543

    53

    23

    543

    46

    25

    527

    27

    28

    543

    4

    29

    543

    (b)

    37

    543

    4

    29

    317

    55

    30

    Group Captain

    814½

    55

    29

    724

    55

    29

    750 (a)

    —

    30

    678

    60

    29

    724

    3

    33

    —

    —

    —

    724

    3

    33

    317

    55

    30

    NOTES:

    (a) The scale for a Group Captain in the General Duties Branch is based on rank and length of service.

    (b) Officer must have at least 10 years' service as Squadron Leader and Wing Commander.

    (c) The period of service below the rank of Warrant Officer is counted as half for the purpose of reckoning service for retired pay,

    Personnel, Singapore
    Lieut.-Colonel Byersasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air why R.A.F. personnel, dispatched from England to Singapore in September, on the "Duchess of Richmond," had their tropical gear, including mosquito-nets, removed; and when these will be replaced.
    Mr. Strachey: These men were origin ally destined for Okinawa and were kitted up as a self-contained unit; on the defeat of Japan, they were sent to Singapore. Owing to the change of destination, certain items of tropical kit, including mosquito nets, were withdrawn before the unit sailed, on the assumption that they would be supplied from India. This assumption was wrong and was due to an administrative error which I deeply regret. Mosquito nets have now been issued locally to 80 per cent. of the men, and nets for the remainder are being flown from India and should now have arrived.
    Mr. Thurtleasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what complaints he has received regarding the conditions under which airmen are obliged to live in Singapore; and what action he has taken to improve these.
    Mr. Strachey: I am making urgent inquiries into living conditions for members of the Royal Air Force in Singapore about which representations have been made to my Noble Friend. If my hon. Friend will be good enough to put down his question again next week, I hope to be in a position to provide him with full information.

    Night Flying
    Mr. Leslieasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he will issue instructions to Goosepool aerodrome to cease flying operations after 10 p.m. in order that the inhabitants of Sadberge, Fighting Cocks. Middleton-St. George and Middleton-one-Row may be allowed to have a proper night's rest.
    Mr. Strachey:I am afraid I cannot do that. This is an important O.T.U. and night flying must be learnt by its pupils. But we shall make every effort to avoid disturbing the inhabitants of Sadberge, Fighting Cocks, Middleton-St. George and Middleton-one-Row.
    Mr. Leslie: Does not the hon. Gentleman think that there is sufficient time for night training in the five hours before
    1274
    10 o'clock without disturbing these rural villages?
    Mr. Strachey: That is usually so, but occasionally weather conditions make it impossible, and we cannot make a hard and fast rule.

    W.A.A.F.
    Mr. McKieasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air the present strength of the W.A.A.F.; and how this compares with the figure of the month immediately preceding the termination of hostilities in Europe.
    Mr. Strachey: The strength of the Women's Auxiliary Air Force on 31st October, 1945, was 112,650. Immediately before the end of hostilities in Europe, it was 157,280.
    Mr. Thurtle: Is release in the W.A.A.F. proceeding in accordance with the publicly announced programme?
    Mr. Strachey: Yes, Sir.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS (REBUILDING)
  Mr. Maxtonasked the Prime Minister whether he will provide an opportunity to discuss the decision of the last Parliament to rebuild the House of Commons on the old site, since it is increasingly obvious that even the most economical use of that site will not provide the accommodation or amenities necessary for the efficient working of Parliament in modern conditions.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison):I have been asked to reply. No, Sir. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is convinced that there is no general desire amongst Members—[Hon. Members: "Oh"]—Hon. Members might wait until I have finished—that the House of Commons should be placed on a new site.
  Mr. McGovern: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, in view of the fact that democracy has thrown up hundreds of new Members into this House, whose opinion m this matter has not been registered, if he thinks it is good to create in the minds of the public the view that we need never expect a full attendance of Members in this House, and that seating

  1275
  accommodation will not be found for every Member coming to the House of Commons?
  Mr. Morrison: The main point involved in the hon. Gentleman's original Question is the site, and the Government are convinced—we may be wrong—that there is no general feeling amongst the House to move the site. It is perfectly true that democracy has thrown up hundreds of new Members; it has also thrown out hundreds of old ones. I do not know that either of those considerations is conclusive.
  Mr. Stokes: May I ask my right hon. Friend, while recognising that there is no desire to move the site, to ask the Prime Minister to reconsider the plans that have been submitted to the House, in accordance with which work has already been started, which give totally inadequate room?
  Mr. Maxton: Will the right hon. Gentleman note the dissent which the House accorded to the first part of his answer, and that the second part of his answer did not alter the substance of the first part at all? Would he consider, apart from granting an opportunity for discussion, setting up a Committee to examine the plans that have been passed?
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Morrison:We are dealing with the site. I did notice dissent when I was half way through my answer, but I noticed a different situation when the answer was concluded.
  Mr. Eden:May I ask whether these plans, to which my hon. Friends below the Gangway are now taking exception, were not, in fact, evolved by representatives of all parties in this House, with very long experience of our Parliamentary procedure?
  Mr. Morrison:They were examined by a Committee which was representative of all parties in the last Parliament. One of the difficulties is that the work of preparation has reached a certain point, and I am not sure that on a matter of this kind the judgment of the last House—which had a good deal of experience of the physical use of the House—would necessarily be worse than the judgment of the present House of Commons. If there were a wide feeling that the matter should
  1276
  be reconsidered, the Government would consider the point, but I think it would be highly inconvenient if the preparations now being made were interrupted.
  Mr. Maxton: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman—
  Mr. Speaker: We must get on to the next Question; we have been on this one long enough.

  GENERALISSIMO STALIN
  Mr. Lipsonasked the Prime Minister if he will invite Premier Stalin to visit this country in the near future.
  Mr. H. Morrison: It would, of course, give His Majesty's Government great pleasure to be able to welcome Generalissimo Stalin to this country. The hon. Member can, I think, safely leave the question of such an invitation in the hands of His Majesty's Government.
  Mr. Lipson: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether that means that any invitations have been given by His Majesty's Government or not, because not only His Majesty's Government, but the people, would welcome the opportunity of receiving the leader of the U.S.S.R.?
  Mr. Morrison: I have made it quite clear that a visit by Generalissimo Stalin would give the Government and, I am sure, everybody, great pleasure. I think the House would agree that the judgment as to the occasion and the timing would, on the whole, be best left to His Majesty's Government.

  AUSTRIA (OCCUPATION FORCE)
  Mr. Warbeyasked the Prime Minister what is the approximate size of the combined Allied occupation Force in Austria.
  Mr. H. Morrison:My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister regrets that as stated in his reply to my hon. Friend on the 29th October, he is not in a position to give the information for which my hon. Friend asks.
  Mr. Warbey:Is my right hon. Friend aware that very large figures have been published giving a very disturbing Impression, and would he not consider making a statement in order to allay this disquiet?
  Mr. Morrison:The Government have had to consider this matter in relation to the inevitable consequences if we published figures for each theatre of war. There are objections to that course being followed. We have given the figure for those serving at home and the total figures for those abroad, but we think it would be against the public interest to publish the figures for particular theatres of war.
  Mr. Eden: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider the matter? We are not at war now and all sorts of rumours are current, as to the size of these Forces, which are really harmful to our national interests. Would he reconsider the matter again with the Chiefs of Staff, because I cannot believe that there is any military reason why the figures should not be given? There would be great political advantage if they could be given.
  Mr. Morrison:I am not so sure about political advantage. We will, of course, reconsider the matter from time to time. I gave some figures last week, which was a move in the direction desired. Although we are not at war we are living in a world of actual and potential difficulties and disturbances and we think that to publish the figures for particular theatres is undesirable at the moment.

  TRADE DEVELOPMENT (INFORMATION)
  Mr. De la Bèreasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the cessation of hostilities and the fact that there is no longer the need to prevent information reaching the enemy, he will give an assurance that the practice whereby information required for trade development is withheld from the public shall be discontinued.
  Mr. H. Morrison: Yes, Sir. It is the general policy of His Majesty's Government to resume publication as soon as circumstances permit of the statistics which were issued by the various Government Departments before the war. Some of these statistics have already been published.
  Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware there is an ever increasing tendency on the part of Government
  1278
  Departments to practise a secrecy which impedes our redevelopment, and which is also the negation of liberty? People in this country want freedom.
  Mr. Morrison: The hon. Gentleman's observations are, in my view, quite contrary to the. facts.
  Mr. De la Bère: But did not the bud of liberty open with the English spring?

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Eels
    Mr. Boothbyasked the Minister of Food whether he will now take eels off the list of main dishes in hotels and restaurants.
    The Minister of Food (Sir Benjamin Smith): No, Sir.
    Mr. Boothby:Is the Minister aware that eels are not only nutritious but are full of fat, that there are plenty available and that a large number of people will not, unfortunately, make them their main course at a meal? Why does he not take steps to stimulate the consumption of this food?
    Sir B. Smith:The hon. Gentleman no doubt desires stimulation of the breeding of eels—
    Mr. Boothby: No, not breeding, I want to eat them.
    Sir B. Smith: The average wholesale price of eels has risen, since 1940, from 11d. per pound to 6s. 3d. per pound. That ought to stimulate them.
    An Hon. Member: Black market.
    Sir B. Smith: No, that is in the open market.

    Peanuts
    Mr. Horabinasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the shortage of proteins, he is now prepared to release a limited quantity of peanuts for the production of peanut flour for human consumption, instead of animal feeding-stuffs, especially as the process for producing peanut flour for human consumption gives the same quantity of fats as when the residue is used as cattle food.
    Sir B. Smith:No, Sir. The materials are in short supply, and I am not prepared to divert them from the quotas needed for animal feeding-stuffs.
    Mr. Horabin: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment at the first opportunity.

    Drink Prices (Restaurants)
    Lieutenant William Shepherdasked the Minister of Food if he will consider controlling the prices of drinks in restaurants as these inflated charges have the effect of defeating the purpose of the regulation price for meals.
    Sir B. Smith:The Meals in Establishments Order prescribes maximum prices for whisky, gin and beer when served at a meal. I do not consider an extension of the list necessary to the purposes of the Order, which was intended to prevent ostentatious meals while food supplies were short. I regret, that from some reports I have heard, some catering establishments appear to be charging prices for wine which I regard as excessive. I am investigating this problem, and if the facts are proved I will consider what suitable action I can take.

    Unrationed Foods (Hotels and Restaurants)
    Lieut.-Colonel Wheatleyasked the Minister of Food whether in view of the irritation and hardship caused to the public, he will investigate the supplies to hotels and restaurants who are able to obtain rabbits and other unrationed food in quantities which deplete supplies of these articles available in the shops.
    Sir B. Smith: I am investigating the matter, but the evidence I have at present does not suggest that the quantity of unrationed food consumed in hotels and restaurants has any appreciable effect on the supplies available to the domestic consumer.
    Lieut.-Colonel Wheatley: Is the Minister aware that this is becoming a burning question with housewives?
    Mr. Gallacher: Why cannot the husbands of these housewives get their own rabbits?
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the Minister aware that housewives have nothing to burn?

    Cheese Ration (Farmers' Families)
    Lieut.-Colonel Byersasked the Minister of Food whether he will authorise an extra cheese ration to members of a
    1280
    farmer's family employed on farms, similar to that now granted to agricultural workers.
    Sir B. Smith: The special ration of cheese is allowed to certain categories of employees for whom it is impracticable to provide canteen or other catering facilities, and who require to take a packed meal with them to their work. I regret that I am unable to extend the concession to members of a farmer's family, who can usually return home for a mid-day meal if they wish.
    Lieut.-Colonel Byers:Is the Minister aware that this is not only a question of packed meals, but a matter which concerns the energy-giving properties of the food? Is he prepared to reconsider it in this light?
    Sir B. Smith: Not to give additional cheese to the farmer's family.

    Imported Food Parcels
    Mr. John Fosterasked the Minister of Food why, when there is ample shipping space available from the U.S.A., the amount of food that can be brought by passengers entering England is still limited in weight; why food parcels are limited to five pounds in weight; and whether he will follow the practice of Continental countries of removing these limits so as to get the maximum importation of food.
    Sir B. Smith:The restrictions to which the hon. Member refers were imposed partly to ensure that the principle of "fair share for all" was maintained. If these travellers were permitted to import foodstuffs without limit, and if no weight restrictions were imposed on gift parcels from overseas, some classes of the population would obtain favoured treatment. Furthermore, the withdrawal of restrictions might lead to any increase in such traffic to the detriment of bulk supplies necessary for the maintenance of our rations. The amount of 25 lbs. of food which passengers are allowed to bring in is ample for their needs, but I am considering in conjunction with the Departments concerned the limit upon weight of parcels.

    Flour (Extraction Rate)
    Mr. Douglasasked the Minister of Food what would be the annual saving of shipping tonnage if all flour consumed

    1281
    in this country was of 85 per cent. extraction; and what further saving would be obtained if only wholemeal flour were used.
    Sir B. Smith: It is estimated that if the extraction rate of flour milled in the United Kingdom were raised to 85 per cent. 342,000 tons less wheat would be required than with the present 80 per cent. extraction rate. If the extraction rate were raised to 100 per cent.,1,279,000 tons less wheat would be required than under the present rate. In neither case, however, would there be any saving in shipping tonnage as it would be necessary to import a corresponding amount of animal feeding-stuffs to compensate for the loss of milling offals which would result from an increase in the extraction rate.
    Colonel Gomme-Duncan:Is the Minister aware that, even if it will not save shipping, it will save an enormous number of lives if we have real flour instead of the rubbish we are getting now?
    Sir B. Smith: And it will also kill a lot of livestock in this country.
    Mr. Stokes: Was not this change made merely to suit the millers' combine, and was not the Minister's predecessor deceived and misled?
    Sir B. Smith: The change was made in agreement with the nutritionists—
    Mr. Stokes: No.
    Sir B. Smith:The hon. Member asked a question and I am trying to reply, I hope truthfully. There was complete agreement between all the experts on the 80 per cent. extraction, and a White Paper is about to be published which will confirm that.
    Mr. Stokes: In view of the most unsatisfactory nature of the reply I will raise this matter on the Adjournment. Then the Minister will find out the truth.

    Orange Juice
    Mr. Douglasasked the Minister of Food whether he is aware of the deficiency in the supply of orange juice for mothers and infants which has prevailed for some time past in Battersea; and what steps are being taken to make good this deficiency.
    Sir B. Smith: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the hon. Member for West Lewisham (Mr. Skeffington) on 24th October. I am advised that normal supplies have been available in the Battersea area during the last three weeks, and every effort is being made to avoid any further deficiency.
    Mr. Douglas: Is my right hon. Friend aware that recently 50,000 bottles were ordered, and that only 7,000 were supplied?
    Sir B. Smith: I am not aware of that, but I am aware of the acute shortage of bottles, which I am doing my best to remedy.

    Meat
    Mr. Royleasked the Minister of Food if he is in a position to make a statement with regard to the future policy of his Ministry with regard to purchases and distribution of meat, home-produced and imported.
    Sir B. Smith: No, Sir.

    Beet (Sugar Pulp)
    Mr. Dyeasked the Minister of Food what has been the total production of sugar beet pulp in this country during the past five years; what has been the price charged to farmers; and what has been the value to the country of this product as feeding-stuff for the dairy farmer and beef producer.
    Sir B. Smith:As the reply is rather long and contains a number of figures, I will, with his permission, circulate it in the Official Report.
    Following is the reply:
    The total production of plain and molassed dried sugar beet pulp in this country during the last five years has been:

    Season

    Production Tons

    1940–41

    285,020

    1941–42

    246,106

    1942–43

    304.433

    1943–44

    292,923

    1944–45

    235,517

    A quantity of pulp was sold in its wet condition but the weight of this has been converted to the corresponding dried weight figure for inclusion in the above quantities. The prices charged to farmers vary according to the factory at which

    1283
    the pulp is produced. In the year 1940–41 prices ex factory ranged from £6 is. od. to £6 11s. od. per ton gross weight, bags included, and the present prices range from £6 7s. 6d. to £7 2s. 6d. per ton gross weight, bags included.
    As to the last part of the Question, sugar beet pulp is not, in itself, a balanced food and it would be difficult to express the value of the foregoing quantities of pulp in terms of output of milk or beef, but when used with other feeding stuffs to form a balanced diet for dairy cows one ton of pulp would equal the value of one ton of oats or, when used in a ration for feeding to fattening cattle, one ton of pulp would equal seven to eight tons of roots.

    T.T. Milk
    Major Conantasked the Minister of Food what proportion of T.T. milk produced in the country is incorporated in the bulk supplies that are heat-treated before sale to the public.
    Sir B. Smith:No records are kept of T.T. milk which is bulked with other milk and heat treated before sale to the public, and I am unable, therefore, to state what proportion it represents of the total amount of T.T. milk produced.
    Major Conant:Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the wastage that results from heat-treatment of T.T. milk, and will he take every step to find a market for all T.T. milk at the present time?
    Sir B. Smith: I will do my best. If there is a demand for it, it will find its, way to the person demanding it.

    Long-Term Policy
    Mr. Neil Macleanasked the Minister of Food what arrangements are being made by the Government to implement the long-term food policy foreshadowed in the King's Speech at the opening of the Session to ensure that after the present emergency caused by world shortages of food is over, adequate supplies of essential foods will be available at prices which the public can afford to pay and to fulfil our obligation to raise the standard of nutrition of the people, which we have entered into as members of the permanent Food and Agriculture Organisation.
    Sir B. Smith: With the Speaker's permission I propose to make a short statement on this matter at the end of Question Time.
    Later—
    Sir B. Smith:During the war the Government exercised control over the procurement, distribution and price of most foods. This was necessary to ensure that the supplies available were equitably shared by the whole community, and used to maintain the health and vigour of the people to the best advantage. The Ministry of Food which has been the Department responsible for carrying out this policy will continue as a separate and permanent Department of Government. So long as food shortages continue, the wartime system of food control and rationing must, in the main, be continued. The Government's long-term food policy, as was indicated in His Majesty's Speech at the opening of the Session, contemplates more positive measures than the mere elimination of shortages—necessary as that is. The Government accept the responsibility for ensuring that adequate supplies of food necessary to health are available to all members of the public at reasonable prices, and, in accordance with the recommendations of the United Nations' Conference on Food and Agriculture held at Hot Springs in 1943, the responsibility for raising the standard of nutrition of the people. While it will be the Government's objective to remove as rapidly as possible all controls which, with the passing of shortages of supply, labour and materials, operate merely as restrictions on consumers, traders and producers without contributing to a positive long-term food policy, they will retain and adapt those controls which are necessary to the carrying out of such a policy. In regard to all those foods which play an important part in the nation's diet, the Government will undertake such responsibility in respect of procurement, distribution and sale as is necessary to ensure that adequate supplies are available at reasonable prices, and to implement such international agreements on commercial and commodity policy as may be concluded. The interest of the consumer will be protected; provision will be made for the needs of special classes; the position of the home producer in producing the goods required by the nation from home sources will be safeguarded; the

    1285
    trader who renders the community a necessary service will receive a fair reward. It would be wrong to assume that there will be an automatic return to all the conditions which existed before the war. Subject to the general principles already indicated, the methods necessary for achieving the Government's long-term food policy will be considered in relation to each foodstuff and detailed plans will be worked out. Consultation with non-official interests will take place.

    Dock Strikes (Cargo Delays)
    Captain Gammansasked the Minister of Food what is the estimated delay in the turn round of food ships owing to the dock strike; and what effect this delay is likely to have on food imports for the next three months.
    Sir B. Smith:It is impossible at this stage to assess, with any accuracy, the cumulative effect of the delay in turn round of food ships caused by the strike.
    Captain Gammans:Can the right hon. Gentleman answer the second part of my Question, and say what estimates he has made of the food imports during the next three months?
    Sir B. Smith: The answer is "No."
    Major Guy Lloydasked the Minister of Food what was the total quantity of foodstuffs arriving in United Kingdom ports which failed to be discharged during September and October owing to the docks strikes.
    Sir B. Smith: A total of 189,662 tons of foodstuffs were contained in ships, awaiting commencement of discharge, at ports affected by the docks strikes on 31st October, 1945. Most of these cargoes would have been discharged by that date if the stoppage had not taken place
    Major Lloyd: Will the right hon. Gentleman say if it is possible to arrange for notices, giving the answer to the question, to be put up at the dock gates everywhere throughout the country?

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Cinematograph Films (Monopoly Tendencies)
    Mr. Reevesasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any decisions
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    have been made as to the implementation of the Report on Tendencies to Monopoly in the Cinematograph Film Industry.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Ellis Smith): The majority of the recommendations in the Report on Tendencies to Monopoly in the Cinematograph Film industry could not be implemented without legislation, and many of them raise issues of great complexity. We have given preliminary consideration to the proposals contained in this Report and the views expressed on those proposals by the various sections of the industry, but no final decisions upon them have yet been reached. The present Act expires in 1948, and this will give the opportunity for new and comprehensive legislation.

    Newsprint Supplies
    Sir T. Mooreasked the President of the Board of Trade why any increase of paper supplies has been refused to the newspaper industry since the raw material is now available in the sterling area.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Any substantial increase in newsprint supplies must involve additional expenditure in hard currencies and in existing circumstances this cannot be permitted.
    Sir T. Moore: As this is very important, may I ask the hon. Gentleman to say why additional paper is being released for weekly publications which rarely publish Parliamentary reports, whereas the daily papers, which do publish them, have been deprived of the capacity of placing the Parliamentary news before the public? Is there some sinister motive behind the Government's decision?
    Mr. Smith:The first part is correct. As regards the second part, I should have thought there was no need to ask a supplementary question of that character.
    Hon. Members: Why?
    Mr. Smith: Because hon. Members ought to be aware of it, without asking "Why?" In regard to the first part, it is true that there is limited newsprint available in Finland, Sweden and Norway. In the case of Sweden, it would mean paying hard currency, and, in view of the serious economic position, we are not at the present time, balancing one thing against another, able to afford to pay hard currency.

    Industrial Premises (Release)
    Air-Commodore Harveyasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of industrial premises still requisitioned by all Government departments in Macclesfield and Congleton; and an estimate of the dates of their release.
    Mr. Ellis Smith:Eighteen industrial premises in Congleton, totalling 166,000 square feet, and 18 industrial premises in Macclesfield, totalling 83,000 square feet, are held by Government Departments. It is hoped that these premises will be released in the course of the next few months.
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Is the Minister aware that the Barracks Printing Mill at Macclesfield has been empty since July, except for an internal crane; and the release of this building is still held up, and is preventing the expansion of the business and the employment of ex-Servicemen?
    Mr. Smith: My right hon. Friend, on Monday, outlined the policy pursued in connection with this matter, I think to the satisfaction of the House. I will give an undertaking to the hon. and gallant Member that if he will furnish me with particulars I will see that an immediate investigation is made.

  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
  Captain Crowder(by Private Notice) asked the Leader of the House if, in. view of the importance of foreign affairs at this critical time, he will arrange for Foreign Office Questions to be taken first on one day each week in accordance with past practice.
  Mr. H. Morrison: We endeavoured to ascertain the wishes of the House through the usual channels on the proposed order of Questions. It was generally agreed to give the new order a fair trial as was suggested by Mr. Speaker on Tuesday, 9th October. The new order was based upon Mr. Speaker's ruling to the effect that hon. Members should have a reasonable chance of securing oral answers to Questions addressed to the principal Departments and the fact that these arrangements could only be achieved by a system of rotation. To take any Department's Questions first regularly on one day each week would defeat this pur-
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  pose, and foreign affairs are not the only class of Questions for which priority on a particular day could be claimed.
  We desire to meet the general wishes of the House and I will note the suggestions made by the hon. and gallant Member. We are watching the working of the list. I am sure that hon. Members will agree that it is not an easy matter to obtain a satisfactory arrangement in view of the large number of Questions which appear on the daily list. I hope that the House will be agreeable to giving the present order of Questions a further trial.
  Mr. Eden: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider carefully this matter of Foreign Office Questions? For a great many years in Parliament, there has been a Foreign Office Question day. That has certain advantages, not only in this country, but abroad, for the rest of the world knows that next morning they will get the Parliamentary questions on foreign affairs. I suggest that Foreign Office Questions are in rather a different category from those of other Departments. I do not see why it should not be possible for a general rotation to allow, as it does, for the Prime Minister to have his Questions, commencing at No. 45, as is the case today—and also to allow the Foreign Office to have a regular day. I would ask him to consider that. I think that the implications go wider even than the limits of this House.
  Mr. Morrison: We will consider the matter in the light of experience. I am advised that on one day a week, substantially all Foreign Office Questions have been reached, and many have been reached on another day. I am told that the system of the Foreign Office being No. 1 on one day in the week was a wartime expedient. [Hon. Members: "No."] That is what I am advised. We will make inquiries about that. There are, however, many Members interested in all kinds of other matters, including agriculture, and we must not exclude these enthusiasts from the agenda.
  Mr. Eden: The right hon. Gentleman, I think, will find that for 20 years the Foreign Office have always been first on Wednesday and were also reached on Monday.
  Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that some

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  of us are particularly interested in problems affecting the home front, and feel equally strongly about these priorities?
  Mr. Boothby: May I ask the Minister whether, in view of the fact that Private Members' time has been taken away, His Majesty's Government will give serious consideration to the possibility of allowing another quarter-of-an-hour for Questions each day?
  Mr. Morrison: I do not think we can consider that. It was tried some years ago, and it really did not succeed. As regards Private Members' time, I think that they had a very good time last week on two long Adjournment Debates.
  Mr. Stephen: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will consider restoring the priority of Scottish Questions?
  Mr. Morrison: I would not like to classify those with Questions relating to foreign affairs, but I will keep that point in mind.

  GLOUCESTER CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
  Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills (with Report on the Bill).
  Bill, as amended, and Report to lie upon the Table; Report to be printed.

  PUBLICATIONS AND DEBATES REPORTS
  Resolution reported from the Select Committee:
  "That in the opinion of this Committee the recommendation contained in the First Report of the Select Committee on Publications and Debates Reports in Session 1941–42 that Reports of Select Committees after having been printed once as a White Paper should not be printed a second time in the Volume containing the Minutes of Evidence should now cease to have effect, in view of the inconvenience to Members and the public arising from the separation of the Report from the Minutes of Evidence."
  Report to lie upon the Table.

FOREIGN POLICY (PRESIDENT TRUMAN'S DECLARATION)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Whiteley.]
3.25 p.m.
Mr. Churchill: The departure of the Prime Minister for the United States in all the present circumstances is so important, that we thought it right there should be a Debate in this House beforehand. Although we are divided in domestic affairs by a considerable and widening gulf, we earnestly desire that in our foreign relations we shall still speak as the great united British nation, the British Commonwealth and Empire, which strove through all the perils and havoc of the war, unconquered and unconquerable. It is our wish, on this side of the House, so far as we can give effect to it, and as long as we can give effect to it, that the Prime Minister shall represent abroad, not only the Socialist majority in the present, and we trust, transient House of Commons, but all parties in the State. What I am anxious to submit to the House this afternoon has no other object than that.
From the conversations I have had with the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, I have formed the opinion that His Majesty's Government would think it inopportune today for our Debate to range over the whole European scene, or to deviate either into the tangled problems of particular European countries, or into the troubles of the Middle East, for example, Greece, Syria, Palestine, Egypt. It would seem wise to concentrate, therefore, as much as possible, on the eve of a mission of this character, upon the supreme matter of our relations with the United States, and, in particular, as it seems to me, upon the momentous declaration to the world made by President Truman in his Navy Day address in New York on Saturday, 27th October.
It would not, however, be possible to speak on this subject of the United States without referring to the other great partner in our victory over the terrible foe. To proceed otherwise would be to derange the balance which must always be preserved, if the harmony and poise of world affairs is to be maintained. I must, therefore, begin by expressing what I am

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sure is in everybody's heart, namely, the deep sense of gratitude we owe to the noble Russian people and valiant Soviet Armies, who, when they were attacked by Hitler, poured out their blood and suffered immeasurable torments until absolute victory was gained. Therefore, I say that it is the profound desire of this House—and the House speaks in the name of the British nation—that these feelings of comradeship and friendship, which have developed between the British and Russian peoples, should be not only preserved but rapidly expanded. Here I wish to say how glad we all are to know and feel that Generalissimo Stalin is still strongly holding the helm and steering his tremendous ship. Personally, I cannot feel anything but the most lively admiration for this truly great man, the father of his country, the ruler of its destinies in times of peace, and the victorious defender of its life in time of war.
Even if as, alas, is possible—or not impossible—we should develop strong differences on many aspects of policy, political, social, even, as we think, moral, with the Soviet Government, no state of mind must be allowed to occur in this country which ruptures or withers those great associations between our two peoples which were our glory and our safety, in the late frightful convulsion. I am already trespassing a little beyond those limits within which I have agreed with the Government it would be useful that this Debate should lie, but I feel it necessary to pay this tribute to Soviet Russia with all her tragic load of suffering, all her awful losses and devastation, all her grand, simple, enduring effort. Any idea of Britain pursuing an anti-Russian policy, or making elaborate combinations to the detriment of Russia, is utterly opposed to British thought and conscience. Nothing but a long period of very marked injuries and antagonisms, which we all hope may be averted, could develop any such mood again in this land.
I must tell the House, speaking with my own knowledge, that the world outlook is, in several respects, today less promising than it seemed after the German capitulation of 1918, or after the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. I remember well the period immediately after the last war, when I was a Minister in high
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office and very close to the Prime Minister of the day. Then, there were much higher hopes of the world's future than there are now. Many things, no doubt, have been done better this time, though we have not yet felt the effects of them, but certainly there is today none of that confidence among men that they or their children will never see another world war, which there undoubtedly was in 1919. In 1919 there was the same sense of hope and belief as there is now that we were moving into a new world and that easements and ameliorations awaited the masses of our people. But added to that, there was the buoyant and comforting conviction that all the wars were ended. Personally, I did not share that conviction even at that enthusiastic moment, but one felt it all round one in a degree that is lacking today.
It is our first duty to supply the solid grounds on which this, hope may arise again and live. I think the speech of the President of the United States on 27th October is the dominant factor in the present world situation. This was the speech of the head of a State and nation, which has proved its ability to maintain armies of millions, in constant victorious battle in both hemispheres at the same time. If I read him and understand him correctly, President Truman said, in effect, that the United States would maintain its vast military power and potentialities, and would join with any like-minded nations, not only to resist but to prevent aggression, no matter from what quarter it came, or in what form it presented itself. Further, he made it plain that in regions which have come under the control of the Allies, unfair tyrannical Governments not in accordance with the broad principles of democracy as we understand them would not receive recognition from the Government of the United States. Finally, he made it clear that the United States must prepare to abandon old-fashioned isolation and accept the duty of joining with other friendly and well-disposed nations, to prevent war, and to carry out those high purposes, if necessary, by the use of force carried to its extreme limits.
It is, of course, true that all these propositions and purposes have been set forth in the Declaration of the United Nations at San Francisco in May. None the less, this reaffirmation by the Presi-

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dent of the United States on 27th October is of transcendant importance. If such a statement had been made in the Summer of 1914, the Kaiser would never have launched an aggressive war over a Balkan incident. All would have come to a great parley, between the most powerful Governments of those days. In the face of such a declaration, the world war of 1914 would not have occurred. Such a declaration in 1919 would have led to a real Treaty of Peace and a real armed League of Nations. Such a declaration at any time between the two wars would have prevented the second. It would have made the League of Nations, or a world League strong enough to prevent that re-arming of Germany, which has led all of us through so much tribulation and danger, and Germany herself to punishment and ruin which may well shock the soul of man. Therefore, I feel it is our duty today, in the most definite manner, to welcome and salute the noble declaration made by the President of the United States and to make it plain that upon the principles set forth in the 12 Articles, which follow so closely upon those of the Atlantic Charter, we stand by the United States with a conviction which overrides all other considerations. I cannot bring myself to visualise, in its frightful character, another world war, but none of us knows what would happen if such a thing occurred. It is a sombre thought that, so long as the new world organisation is so loosely formed, such possibilities and their consequences are practically beyond human control.
There is a general opinion which I have noticed, that it would be a serious disaster if the particular minor planet which we inhabit blew itself to pieces, or if all human life were extinguished upon its surface, apart, that is to say, from fierce beings, armed with obsolescent firearms, dwelling in the caverns of the Stone Age. There is a general feeling that that would be a regrettable event. Perhaps, however, we flatter ourselves. Perhaps we are biased but everyone realises how far scientific knowledge has outstripped human virtue. We all hope that men are better, wiser, more merciful than they were 10,000 years ago. There is certainly a great atmosphere of comprehension. There is a growing factor which one may call world public opinion, most powerful, most persuasive, most valuable. We
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understand our unhappy lot, even if we have no power to control it.
Those same deep, uncontrollable anxieties which some of us felt in the years before the war recur, but we have also a hope that we had not got then. That hope is the strength and resolve of the United States to play a leading part in world affairs. There is this mighty State and nation, which offers power and sacrifice in order to bring mankind out of the dark valley through which we have been travelling. The valley is indeed dark, and the dangers most menacing, but we know that not so far away are the broad uplands of assured peace. Can we reach them? We must reach them. This is our sole duty.
I am sure we should now make it clear to the United States that we will march at their side in the cause that President Truman has devised, that we add our strength to their strength, and that their stern sober effort shall be matched by our own. After all, if everything else fails—which we must not assume—here is the best chance of survival. Personally, I feel that it is more than survival. It may even be safety, and, with safety, a vast expansion of prosperity. Having regard to all these facts of which many of us here are aware at the present time, we may confidently believe that with the British Empire and Commonwealth standing at the side of the United States, we shall together be strong enough to prevent another world catastrophe. As long as our peoples act in absolute faith and honour to each other, and to all other nations, they need fear none and they need fear nothing. The British and American peoples come together naturally, and without the need of policy or design. That is because they speak the same language, were brought up on the same common law, and have similar institutions and an equal love of individual liberty. There is often no need for policy or statecraft to make British and Americans agree together at an international council table. They can hardly help agreeing on three out of four things. They look at things in the same way. No policies, no pacts, no secret understandings are needed between them. On many of the main issues affecting our conduct and our existence, the English-speaking peoples of the world are in general agreement.

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It would be a mistake to suppose that increasingly close and friendly relations between Great Britain and the United States, imply an adverse outlook towards any other Power. Our friendship may be special, but it is not exclusive. On the contrary, every problem dealing with other Powers is simplified by Anglo-American agreement and harmony. That is a fact which. I do not think the Foreign Secretary, or any one who took part in the recent Conference, would doubt. It is not as if it were necessary to work out some arrangement between British and Americans at a conference. In nearly every case where there is not some special difficulty between them, they take the same view of the same set of circumstances, and the fact that that is so, makes it all the more hopeful that other Powers gathered at the Conference will be drawn into the circle of agreement which must precede action.
It is on this basis I come—and I do not want to detain the House very long—to the atomic bomb. According to our present understanding with the United States, neither country is entitled to disclose its secrets to a third country without the approval of the other. A great deal has already been disclosed by the United States in agreement with us. An elaborate document giving an immense amount of information on the scientific and theoretical aspects was published by the Americans several weeks ago. A great deal of information is also common property all over the world. We are told by those who advocate immediate public disclosure, that the Soviet Government are already possessed of the scientific knowledge, and that they will be able to make atomic bombs in a very short time. This, I may point out, is somewhat inconsistent with the argument that they have a grievance, and also with the argument, for what it is worth, that we and the United States have at this moment any great gift to bestow, such as would induce a complete melting of hearts and create some entirely new relationship.
What the United States do not wish to disclose is the practical production method which they have developed, at enormous expense and on a gigantic scale. This would not be an affair of scientists or diplomatists handing over envelopes containing formulæ. If effective, any such disclosure would have to take the form of
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a considerable number of Soviet specialists, engineers and scientists visiting the United States arsenals, for that is what the manufacturing centres of the atomic bomb really are. They would have to visit them, and they would have to dwell there amid the plant, so that it could all be explained to them at length and at leisure. These specialists would then return to their own country, carrying with them the blueprints and all the information which they had obtained, together, no doubt, with any further improvements which might have occurred to them. I trust that we are not going to put pressure on the United States to adopt such a course. I am sure that if the circumstances were reversed, and we or the Americans asked for similar access to the Russian arsenals, it would not be granted. During the war we imparted many secrets to the Russians, especially in connection with Radar, but we were not conscious of any adequate reciprocity. Even in the heat of the war both countries acted under considerable reserve.
Therefore, I hope that Great Britain, Canada and the United States will adhere to the policy proclaimed by President Truman, and will treat their knowledge and processes as a sacred trust to be guarded for the benefit of all nations and as a deterrent against aggressive war. I myself, as a British subject, cannot feel the slightest anxiety that these great powers should at the present moment be in the hands of the United States. I am sure they will not use them in any aggressive sense, or in the indulgence of territorial or commercial appetites. They, like Great Britain, have no need or desire for territorial gains. To my mind, it is a matter for rejoicing—[Interruption.] Is this an argument or a duet?
Mr. Logan: I said that if the bomb went off there would be no working class.
Mr. Churchill:I am not sufficiently familiar with the vernacular to follow the exact purpose and intensity of that joke. I am sure they will not use those powers in any aggressive way. Like Great Britain, they have no need for territorial gain. Personally, I feel it must be in most men's minds here today that it is a matter for rejoicing that these powers of manufacture are in such good hands. The possession of these powers will help the United States and our Allies to build

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up the structure of world security. It may be the necessary lever which is required to build up that great structure of world security.
How long, we may ask, is it likely that this advantage will rest with the United States? In the Debate on the Address I hazarded the estimate that it would be three or four years. According to the best information I have been able to obtain, I see no reason to alter that estimate, and certainly none to diminish it, but even when that period is over, whatever it may prove to be, the progress made by the United States' scientists and, I trust, by our own, both in experiment and manufacture, may well leave us and them with the prime power and responsibility for the use of these dire superhuman weapons. I also agree with President Truman when he says that those who argue that, because of the atomic bomb, there is no need for armies, navies and air forces, are at present 100 per cent. wrong. I should be glad to hear, in whatever terms His Majesty's Ministers care to express themselves, that this is also the view of His Majesty's Government.
I cannot leave this subject without referring to another aspect which is forced upon me by speeches made in a recent Debate on the Adjournment. It was said that unless all knowledge of atomic energy, whether of theory or production, were shared among all the nations of the world, some of the British and American scientists would act independently, by which, I suppose, is meant that they would betray to foreign countries whatever secrets remained. In that case, I hope the law would be used against those men with the utmost rigour. Whatever may be decided on these matters should surely be decided by Parliaments and responsible Governments, and not by scientists, however eminent and however ardent they may be. Mr. Gladstone said that expert knowledge is limited knowledge. On many occasions in the past we have seen attempts to rule the world by experts of one kind and another. There have been theocratic Governments, military Governments and aristocratic Governments. It is now suggested that we should have scientistic—not scientific—Governments. It is the duty of scientists, like all other people, to serve the State and not to rule it because they are scientists. If they
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want to rule the State they must get elected to Parliament or win distinction in the Upper House and so gain access to some of the various administrations which are formed from time to time. Most people in the English-speaking world will, I believe, think it much better that great decisions should rest with Governments lawfully elected on democratic lines. I associate myself with the majority in that opinion.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for the King's Norton Division of Birmingham (Captain Blackburn) showed the other night that some breach of trust had already occurred, when he referred to the secret agreement signed by President Roosevelt and myself at Quebec in 1943, and endeavoured to give some account of it Let me say that, so far as I am concerned, I have no objection to the publication of any document or any agreement which I have signed on this subject with the late President. Surely, however, this is a matter for both the British and United States Governments to settle together in full agreement. Neither of them has the right to publish without the consent of the other, and it would be very wrong for anyone to try to force their hands or press them unduly.
Captain Blackburn: May I point out that I did not make the suggestion that I knew of any secret agreement or that a leakage had occurred? I said that it was apparent from the Smyth Report, to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred, and from the White Paper and other circumstances, that some such agreement must, in fact, have been entered into.
Mr. Churchill:I took great pains to read carefully what the hon. and gallant Gentleman said in his very eloquent and able speech, and I think the references which I have made today, and which also were carefully considered, will be found appropriate and not unjust. I am not making any attack. I only say that it occurred to me to be quite clear from what he said that there has been somewhere a breach of confidence, which he published and brought to the notice of the House in the exercise of his responsibilities as a Member of Parliament. This, of course, was immediately telegraphed to the United States, and at the Press Conference the next day President Truman was questioned about it. A truncated

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report appeared in some of the newspapers here, with the answers which he gave, but not setting forth the exact question which elicited the answer. I have taken pains to verify the actual text of the answers which President Truman gave at his Press Conference on 31st October. He was asked by correspondents the following question:
"Mr. President, it was said in the House of Commons yesterday that President Roosevelt and former Prime Minister Churchill reached a secret agreement at Quebec on the peacetime use of the atom bomb. Do you"
The President interposed:
"I do not think that is true."
Those were the exact words, where he interposed.
"As nearly as I can find out, on the atom energy release programme, Great Britain, Canada and the United States are in equal partnership on its development, and Mr. Attlee is coming over here to discuss that phase of the situation with the President of the United States.
QUESTION: Well, Mr. President, are these three countries in equal possession of the knowledge of how we produce the bomb?
THE PRESIDENT: They are.
QUESTION: Great Britain knows as much about how we produced that as we do?
THE PRESIDENT: They do."
It seems to me that that is a satisfactory statement of the whole position, and it affords an exceedingly good basis upon which the Prime Minister may begin any discussion he may wish to have with the President. Subject to anything that the Foreign Secretary may say, I strongly advise the House for the present to leave the question where it now lies.
May I in conclusion submit to the House a few simple points which, it seems to me, should gain their approval? First, we should fortify in every way our special and friendly connections with the United States, aiming always at a fraternal association for the purpose of common protection and world peace. Secondly, this association should in no way have a point against any other country, great or small, in the world, but should, on the contrary, be used to draw the leading victorious Powers ever more closely together on equal terms and in all good faith and good will. Thirdly, we should not abandon our special relationship with the United States and Canada about the atomic bomb, and we should aid the
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United States to guard this weapon as a sacred trust for the maintenance of peace. Fourthly, we should seek constantly to promote and strengthen the world organisation of the United Nations, so that, in due course, it may eventually be fitted to become the safe and trusted repository of these great agents. Fifthly, and this, I take it, is already agreed, we should make atomicbombs, and have them here, even if manufactured elsewhere, in suitable safe storage with the least possible delay. Finally, let me say on behalf of the whole House that we wish the Prime Minister the utmost success in his forthcoming highly important visit to Washington.
4.0 p.m.
Mr. Clement Davies: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the state of affairs in the world today is as precarious and as ominous as it has been at any time since it became clear that Nazism was doomed to failure and defeat. The conditions in various parts of the world, in Europe, in the Middle East, in India, in China, are such that they cannot be viewed without the greatest anxiety with regard to the future. The Prime Minister has chosen, and rightly chosen, this moment to set out on a mission to America, and there cannot be anyone of good will and with any sense of responsibility who does not wish him well in his great task. I think he has chosen wisely in undertaking first this visit to President Truman. I believe the first requisite of a permanent peace is a clear, definite and full understanding and agreement upon all major questions of policy between the United States of America and the Commonwealth of British Nations, for if we disagree, or if we do not pursue the same high ideal, then, indeed, the outlook for world agreement is dim and cloudy.
On 27th October President Truman not only issued his Twelve Points but introduced them in a speech which contained some matters of grave importance. We all welcomed the statement that the United States, like ourselves, as we knew and had hoped from the Atlantic Charter, seek no territorial expansion or selfish advantage, that they have no plans for aggression against any other State, large or small, no objective which need conflict with the peaceful aims of any other nation; but this was accompanied by the statement

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that the United States also would need and seek bases for her own fleet and her defence. I shall return to this. For the moment I am only calling attention to the difficulties of reconciling the Twelve Points with the avowed policy which is at present being pursued by the United States. But most important of all was the statement that, not only would the secret of the atomic bomb be strictly confined to the United States of America, or, rather to its Government and its scientists; there was, further, the statement that it would not even be discussed with Britain, or even with Canada.
I should like to return to this point, or rather to its implications, but for the moment I desire to draw attention to the psychological effect which that must have upon Russia. I agree that in excluding us all from the secrets of the atomic bomb, it can be said that no distinction is drawn between Great Britain or even Canada, or any other of our Dominions, and Russia. But all the world knows that the use of the atomic bomb against Britain or any one of our Dominions is not only unthinkable to us but unthinkable to anyone in the United States. There are several views about Russia, about her Government or her policy, but everyone seems to be agreed that Russians are realists. Can anyone doubt that, the suggestion underlying this declaration was that Russia is being put on a level different from that of the United States of America—that the bomb undoubtedly gives its possessor overwhelmingly superior power and places everyone else upon a lower plane? It seems to me that the speech has strengthened rather than otherwise the growth of mistrust, the seeds of which have already been too widely sown. To my mind there is nothing so appalling or perilous as talk, either in public places of in private, of the possibilities of jealousies and of antagonisms and of the prospects of another war. Let there be talk only of permanent peace, mutual understanding and mutual aid.
The outstanding tragedy, even among all the other tragedies, transcending even that drab drama which is now being enacted in Europe, is the breakdown of the Conference of the Great Powers. I hope and believe sincerely that the Prime Minister will bend his best endeavours to bring the Powers again around the dis
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cussion table, to work out the conditions of peace for themselves and for the world. All three of the Great Powers have made such mighty sacrifices, so many millions of lives have been lost, and the danger of another war is fraught with such horror, that surely the leaders of all countries should have one object and one only—to obtain a just, fair and, above all, a lasting understanding; to abolish malice, to abolish jealousy, to abolish all aggression, all lust for power and desire for domination, and abolish all fear of one another. Unfortunately, each of them, and I am afraid I heard echoes of it again today in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, is pursuing the old methods that have proved so fatal in the past. No sooner is a war ended—the right hon. Gentleman reminded us today of 1919—than preparations are made for the next, and always, be it noted, on the plea that each must do something for his own defence, against the possibility of aggression by somebody else, each must seek new Allies lest somebody else should "snaffle" them first.
That unfortunate atmosphere of suspicion, jealousy and doubt is prevalent today throughout the world. Russia is securing her defences, pushing her boundaries further and further West, ousting millions of people from their homes, creating buffer States which are under her protection, exulting in her own strength, in her own immense resources, in her power of production, and, what is more, in the secrecy with which she can enshroud it. On the other hand, the United States, at the very moment that this great declaration of the Twelve Points was made, was exulting in her mighty fleet, the greatest in the world today, her vast Army, the enormous strength of her air power. She added to that claims for further bases and bastions, and finally claimed to hold the secret of the atomic bomb as a sacred trust for the rest of the world.
What of us? We, too, have been trying to find fresh Allies, supporting some faction or another, maybe in Greece or in Italy, that we think might be more favourable to us in a time of stress, and pursuing thus the time-worn ideas that have so long dominated our Foreign Office. Everyone of those great States claims that it is acting in the best interests of peace and of its own defence. What they succeed

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in doing is to build up a suspicion, one against the other, of these armies, and these fleets in the air or on the sea, and to impoverish their own people in doing so. I wish the leaders could translate into facts the fine ideas which they so rightly uphold which, in truth and in fact, express the sincere desire and prayer of the peasants everywhere. All that the poor peasant knows and realises in his bewilderment is that when the leaders quarrel it is he, the peasant everywhere, who is called upon for sacrifice. Let us begin afresh, let us start a new policy, and "let the dead past bury its dead." I realise that it is right that the Prime Minister should go to America, I realise that early negotiations, soundings and talks are best discussed primarily in private, but there does come a time when it is far better to discuss the great permanent policies in public, in open court, with the peoples of the world as the jury, that they may understand what is happening, what may be their hopes, and what, indeed, their fate.
We Liberals have expressed our view from the outset with regard to the atomic bomb, and the effect that it should have upon the nations of the world. I spoke on behalf of the Liberals in the Debate on the Address, and I am glad that now those views have the strong support of a man for whom all of us should have the highest respect, one of our greatest scientists, Professor Oliphant. His speech in Birmingham on Saturday was most opportune. What did he say? First, that the atomic bomb is the most devastating and horrible weapon that man has yet devised for the destruction of his fellow men, that it is only yet in its infancy, that its power can be immeasurably increased and made a hundredfold more powerful and devastating than the bombs which were dropped on Japan, each of which destroyed a great city. Secondly, he said that the secret cannot be kept. Undoubtedly, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, I knew nothing, and still know really nothing about any agreement, secret or otherwise, made between England and the President of the United States. It is obvious that, in the great march of science, nothing can long be kept secret. The main ideas are not only known to the great scientists of America, but to those of Britain and Europe, and
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possibly to those of Russia and also Japan. Might I, in passing, remind those who now hold this secret, that the final discovery was contributed to by the scientists of the world? Every nation has contributed its part to the final knowledge.
Thirdly, there is no defence or antidote against this dread weapon. I said in the House when I last spoke on this matter that this weapon had altered the whole situation. It has put an end to all the talk and theory of the balance of power. It has belittled and rendered almost nugatory, in spite of anything that the right hon. Gentleman has said today, or that the President of the United States has said, the defensive value of millions of conscript armies, vast navies and immense forces in the air. We know that wars may be started without declaration. They have been so started within our memory more than once; but if a declaration is made, we know that within a few minutes of its being made, there may be hurled across miles of territory or miles of sea this tremendous weapon, which may bring unimaginable devastation on the land and kill millions of people. A new situation has been created by this discovery.
What are we to do? Surely the answer is obvious. We cannot rely any longer upon treaties, understandings, or alliances, or any of the old methods of the past which were supposed to guarantee peace but never did so. The new problems cannot be settled by secret diplomacy. They cannot be solved by mere bilateral, trilateral or even quadrilateral agreements or understandings. They can be solved only by the united peoples of the world. I wish President Truman had made his twelth point first, as it is the most important. May I repeat to the House some of the words he used? He said:
"We are convinced that the preservation of peace between the nations requires a United Nations Organisation composed of all the peace loving nations of the world, who are willing jointly to use force, if necessary, to ensure peace."
Great words, but I wish they had been even plainer. I wish he had said: "We desire that there should be one sovereign State in the world, to which all nations shall contribute, to which all nations shall owe allegiance. Let that sovereign State lay down the rule of law to govern all

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peoples and all nations. Let it, and it alone, have the power to enforce that rule of law against any wrongdoer, wherever he may be, or whoever he may be, without any exception." Until that has become the law of the world, there will, I fear, be talk of war, talk of aggression, talk of defence against aggression, talk of conscript armies, talk of navies, talk of air forces of each nation, talk of the balance of power and talk of alliances. Treaties will be made and treaties will be broken. They can only lead ultimately to one result, war. Be it remembered that war has not always spoken with the voice of justice. Cannot we realise that man has now devised a weapon with which he may destroy, not only millions of his fellowmen, but civilisation itself? Let there be, then, one world authority—no more vetoes for any Power or set of Powers raising themselves above the law, and no more classification of some Powers above the law and some below the law. Let us look well beyond Yalta and San Francisco. Let us remember that today, he who has been sneered at in the past as the idealist, is, in truth, the realist, seeing facts as they are, and foretelling the dangers of the future with precision and truth. Those are the dominant questions.
I will deal very shortly with the other points raised by President Truman. I am glad he has reiterated what was contained in the Atlantic Charter and the policy underlying the Atlantic Charter, the Mutual Aid Agreement and the Conference Agreement at Hot Springs, namely—and I think this is of vital importance to all the rest of the world—that the Society of Nations should have access to the trade and raw materials of the world, and that there should be full economic collaboration among all nations, so as to abolish want as well as fear. Naturally, we Liberals fully accept both pronouncements. We would like to emphasise again our adherence to, and our belief in, Article 7 of the Mutual Aid Agreement, which should have received the full concurrence and acceptance of His Majesty's Government. For some reason or other, during the period between the Mutual Aid Agreement and today, it has never been accepted fully. The reduction of trade barriers, and the elimination of discrimination, have always been part of our programme. People everywhere have been impover-
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ished by war, and the economic systems of all countries have been gravely, or even completely deranged. Everywhere people are waiting for guidance in order that they might adopt their own plans for world reconstruction. Political formulas, however, are not enough. Unless definite action is taken, the hungry and distressed in their hopelessness and despair, will turn for help, comfort and food to another programme, namely Communism.
No wonder that the world is waiting for a declaration of a lead from this Government. Britain alone, even with the assistance of all who belong to the British Commonwealth of Nations, cannot fully carry the burden of leadership. I do not believe that the United States alone can give effective guidance everywhere certainly not in Europe. The two great countries should come together and pool their ideas. To create greater economic unity and solidarity in the world we must have a great framework of currency, and commerce, and machinery, by which all nations can help each other and stand together, and so resist the onslaught of depression. The basis of the Mutual Aid Agreement has gone. What is to replace it? Events are moving rapidly, and the world, on the brink of disaster, is waiting. The predilection of the Conservative Party for Imperial Preference of the narrower kind has, in my view, been a serious obstacle to world agreement. Lord Beaverbrook put it in the forefront of the Conservative programme and the nation rejected it. But we have been waiting, so far in vain, for some pronouncement from His Majesty's Government. I hope that they will not hark back to the ideas of 40 years ago, and seek an exclusive British bloc. The British Dominions do not want it. Certainly Canada does not, neither the Liberal Government there nor the Opposition. I would like to quote from a speech by Mr. MacDonnell in the Canadian House of Commons. He said:
"A regionalised world, with the United States competing exclusively for a body of trade, which, by reason of trade barriers, will be smaller, will be most injurious to Britain."
South Africa can only be embarrassed by being in a bloc working in opposition to the biggest buyer of her principal commodity. The only hope for the future solidarity and progress of this great British Commonwealth of Nations lies in

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a still larger area of co-operation, including the United States, working towards the same end, a more united and prosperous world, with all nations having free access to trade and raw materials everywhere. I hope that the Government are not instructing their delegates to make any reservations in the interests of over-rigid schemes. Planning should be designed to make our industrial structure more flexible than it was before the war and not more rigid. I hope more than ever that the Government will not have within their programme any idea of Protection. Our own home interests and our need to raise the standard of living, require international co-operation in a more rational world order. The Government must make a clear statement with regard to this matter.
Let the Government declare their policy is directed towards complete accord with the United States on the broad principles of the Mutual Aid Agreement, world economic unity, concerted plans to deal with depression, reduction of trade barriers and the elimination of all discriminatory practices. With the other noble sentiments contained in that declaration we are all agreed. We believe in freedom of speech, freedom of religion throughout the world and that mankind everywhere should be helped to enjoy the fruits of the earth. As we desire to abolish want within the nation so we want to abolish want among the nations. We are dependent upon one another, and true happiness for the few is impossible in the midst of the agony of the many.
I hope and believe that the ideals to which I have now given utterance are those which also move the Prime Minister and which he desires to ensue. I want to assure him that he carries with him on this mission not only the good wishes but the prayers of a united but anxious nation—anxious for his success across the water. Once again I urge him to lead Britain in the old and honourable role which she has so often fulfilled in the past. Let her uphold the great ideals to which she has nailed her flag. Let her, behind him, give a moral lead to the world.
4.28 p.m.
Mr. Gordon-Walker: I am glad to be able to make my first speech to this House on a matter so weighty as
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that now before us. I hope I shall not exceed what is fit and proper in a maiden speech. We are discussing today our relationships with a great Power with whom it is essential that we should remain friendly. The essence of friendship is frankness. I would like to say a few words about two problems concerning the security of the world, whose probable source of origin will be in America. Our attitude to them will determine the whole relations between our countries. These are the dangers of isolationism and of an economic slump in America. Of the many great dangers facing the world today I am not sure that a recrudescence of American isolationism is not one of the gravest. That point needs to be stressed, because the danger is obscured by the fears aroused in some quarters by every activity of America outside its own borders. This is a matter on which it is important to be logical. The people who cry out against the isolationists, and damn them as reactionaries, are the same people who decry American participation in the world and describe it as "Imperialist."
We cannot have it both ways. If we want, as I believe we should, and as would be in our national interest, to see a complete abandonment of American isolationism, we want more American participation in the world. In this matter I find myself in the perhaps peculiar position for me of being in agreement with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), but I have never held that one should change one's views because one's political opponents agree with them—even one's most distinguished political opponents. If so it would be very easy for those opponents to dictate one's policy. Of course, America may abuse its powers; in all power there is the possibility of abuse, but it seems to me that abuse of power is not the only danger inherent in power. Power which is not accepted by those who in fact possess it is as dangerous as power that is abused by those who possess it. What I mean is this. America is, in fact, a great Power, and even if it withdraws from the affairs of the world, all the other countries in the world are going to reckon on America's potential power. If America withdraws from the world, that means that the world will be in a constant state of dangerous and incalculable disequilibrium. It means that the world is, so to

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speak, running on three cylinders, and the fourth cylinder may, at any moment, suddenly turn out to be an atom bomb.
I, therefore, think that we should welcome the greatest amount of American participation in the world, and therefore we should also welcome Mr. Truman's speech, not so much for its idealism, to which we have grown accustomed from America, but for its large measure of realism. In Mr. Truman's speech were many examples of the determination of America to participate in the daily and current affairs of the world. I mention only one of them because it is perhaps the most striking, namely, the demand for strategic bases. I think it is a demand that we should welcome and, in general, support, because I feel that every step America takes towards participation in the world, is a good step so long as there is not sheer abuse of power. I would, however, add that I do not at all agree—and I say this with equal emphasis—with the manner in which America has put forward this demand, and I hope that our Prime Minister, when he meets Mr. Truman, will make it clear that neither we, nor any other of America's neighbours, can for one moment accept such a demand, unless it is clearly put forward by America as a member and full agent of the United Nations Organisation.
Although there are many encouraging signs of America's continued participation in the affairs of the world, there are some signs on the other side. There are some rather disquieting signs that America may be preparing to withdraw from Germany and Europe. Some aspects of American policy in Germany would be difficult to explain on any other hypothesis. If America did withdraw in this way from Germany, it would, I am sure, be a great blow to the interests of Europe and, I think, a blow against the long-term interests of America. I am quite sure it would be against the tenor and tendency of Mr. Truman's speech. This is a matter of immediate importance, and comes up in connection with the question of the location of the seat of the United Nations Organisation. I believe that it will be, in the long run, really in the interests of America and of the world that the seat of the United Nations Organisation should be in Europe, which is the key point, and the danger centre of the world. This matter will come up before the Preparatory
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Commission and again before the Assembly, and I hope that we shall do everything possible to press upon America the importance of reconsidering the decision, and of settling the United Nations Organisation in Europe. Having said that I am in favour of America's participation in world affairs, there is one form of participation about which I am not so sure. America has latterly adopted the habit of urging concrete policies upon other countries and, if I may say so, particularly upon us, regarding Palestine, Germany and other places. Of course it is quite right that our affairs should be public, and that America or any other country should express their views on them, but when America urges policies upon us in this way, I think we have the right to ask America to will the means as well as the end. We have the right to ask America how many men, and how much money would she be prepared to spend, if necessary, in carrying out the policies that she is urging upon us.
Now I come to the second danger, which seems to me every whit as great as and perhaps even greater than the other—the danger of an American slump. This is really a political matter, it looms across the future of the world and clouds and colours the relations of every country, including ourselves, with America. It is a matter on which I think there is need for clear thought because it is possible—it is sometimes done—so to exaggerate the dangers of an American slump that it would be quite impossible to achieve any sort of political agreement with America at all. It seems to me to be possible to state the situation quite simply, in two propositions. The first is that it is a prime necessity and interest of this country to maintain friendship with America. The second is that the basis of any understanding with America must be economic. That is the way the Americans think; they think from economic terms to political terms. America and Russia in this, as in so much else, are in opposite positions. With America you can only get a political agreement if you first make an economic one. With Russia it is the other way round. We shall not get proper economic agreements with Russia until we have solved our political problems.
Of course, I think we should not tie our economy to the American economy,

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nor the pound sterling to the dollar, we should remain masters of our own economy, but we have got to stop this policy somewhere short of complete economic autarchy. This means that we have to run some risks of the consequences of an American slump. I do not believe that there is any complete safeguard against the consequences of a phenomenon so colossal as an American slump, but there are some safeguards to which we should pay great attention in our political agreements. In any agreement that involves the payment of dollars to America, it is essential that we should have an escape clause, which forgives or postpones the payment of dollars when dollars are scarce—which means when there is a slump in America and America is exporting goods and not importing them. There is such a clause in the Bretton Woods Agreement, the Scarce Currency clause, which should be taken as a model in these matters. I would be in favour of ratifying the Bretton Woods Agreement if only because of that clause.
I have taken the best advice I can from economists who know more about these matters than I do, and it seems to me that we must reckon on the very serious possibility of a slump in America. I do not however believe that this time the consequences of such a slump will be anything like as bad as they were last time. I think the Americans may well get into their slump without any proper preparation, but when they do get into it Congress will resort to desperate and grandiose remedies, which will to a considerable extent limit its intensity and scope. The risks of an American slump can therefore be exaggerated. I feel that we have to take some risk in this matter; in the position in which this country is, both as regards America and Russia, we have to take certain risks. We have to demonstrate confidence, and I hope that as regards America, whilst taking all due precautions against the dangers of a slump spreading to us and the rest of the world, we shall not so exaggerate those dangers that we in fact make any political agreement impossible.
My final point is this. There is a danger of our country becoming a sort of vast Vienna, a centre of social progress and civilisation in the midst of a world that is deteriorating and becoming an ex-
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plosive world which may blow us up as well as itself. This imposes extra responsibilities upon our Government. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford mentioned how the people today are far less exuberant in their hopes of the peace than they were after the last war. On the whole that is a good thing. These difficult and serious problems have to be approached with sobriety. Our people are at least as eager to have a peaceful world to live in as to have good homes and good jobs. In a by-election in which I was recently engaged in my constituency, I was much impressed by the fact that the people at the meetings were as interested in international affairs as in problems of old age pensions or even of demobilisation, which at that time some organs of the Press were trying to whip up in order to discredit the Government. We have a chance here to achieve a really great policy that will be worthy of our people, if we are determined to put as much energy into the arduous and responsible pursuit of peace as we do into the building of our new Britain.
4.42 p.m.
Lieut.-Colonel Martin Lindsay: I rise with trepidation and ask for the traditional indulgence of the House. In the course of the last 18 months I have had the honour of commanding an infantry battalion in sixteen operations, and anyone who has had that experience will be familiar with the agonies of apprehension before and after zero hour, but, Mr. Speaker, I am convinced that, for sheer misery, there is nothing to touch the suspense of waiting to catch your eye for the first time.
I wish to speak upon the first subject on the agenda of the Prime Minister's talks with President Truman—atomic energy—and in doing so, I wish to place before the House the point of view of the scientists who have been most closely connected with the discovery, and who have had longer to consider these problems than either politicians or the public. It is no exaggeration to say that many, if not most, of the physicists who discovered and developed nuclear energy, both American and British, are profoundly worried about the way in which this matter is apparently being handled. I do not doubt that much of this uneasiness would pass, if both Governments could

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see their way to be less reticent upon the subject of atomic energy, and my purpose in intervening in this Debate is to urge upon His Majesty's Government the advisability of giving much greater information to the people.
When, over a year ago, it became evident that it was going to be practicable to drop the atomic bomb in the course of this war, the American physicists sought from the late President Roosevelt an assurance that they would be consulted as to the way in which these bombs were to be used. It was considered that there were several ways in which this might be done. One school of thought wished to explode the bomb at a height of 10,000 feet, producing in the sky a phenonomon very much brighter and hotter than the sun and with a strong blast effect upon all those in the neighbourhood. This demonstration would have been followed by suitable publicity inviting surrender before other such bombs were detonated at a lower level. Others wished to blow the top off Mount Fuji-yama, or to obliterate an island naval base in Tokyo harbour and in sight of the capital city. Whatever differences of opinion there were between the advocates of these different courses of action, all were convinced that the bomb should first be dropped as a demonstration and a threat.
Hon. Members know what happened. The first bomb was dropped on Hiroshima and killed 125,000 people, and an awful precedent was established. From my opening remarks, the House will have gathered that I am no pacifist. Indeed, I would without hesitation have used this new weapon quite ruthlessly and I would have killed every man, woman and child in Japan, if that lay in my power, if by so doing I would have saved the lives of any Allied fighting men who would otherwise have been killed in battle. It would seem that the opportunity of trying to end the Japanese war by the mere threat of the atomic bomb was not taken, and it is difficult for those with no inside information to escape the conclusion that the first two bombs were dropped without sufficient thought. It may well not be so, but that is what is being widely said at present, and the Government would be well advised to make public their no doubt excellent reasons for what was done. Democratic Governments need not only to do right but also to appear to be doing right in
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the eyes of the people. That first bomb killed 125,000 people, and we have the assurance of these eminent scientists that the atomic bombs of the future will be anything up to 1,000 times more devastating in their effect. Therefore, this matter is so much the more urgent today.
The whole House will welcome the forthcoming talks between the Prime Minister and the President. We know that both these men are animated by the highest possible motives. I hope that these conversations will consider, among other things, the wisdom of treating the subject of atomic energy quite openly and giving the people in both countries the fullest possible information. In the United States, due largely to this lack of information, opinion is very much divided between those who want to give away the details of the bomb and those who regard it as a secret American invention which they must keep as no one else is to be trusted with it. To clear the air, the American physicists have been at pains to circulate a memorandum in which they specifically state "those who advocate the secret of the bomb being kept, mislead our people." As my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) stated, the only secret that remains today is what he called the "practical production details," and even these will be discovered very quickly by those who wish to do so. In the same memorandum, the American physicists went on to state:
"even those nations with lesser resources than those of the United States will be able to produce atomic bombs within two to five years."
Therefore, it is quite obvious that Russia, with her vast resources and above all her powerful State dictatorship, will very quickly catch up with the United States, and she has made it quite plain that she is going ahead just as fast as she can, with every intention of having the atomic bomb. So the position today is that the world has embarked upon another arms race and one which will have consequences a thousand times worse than the last one if it is not arrested. We in these small, densely populated islands are bound to be obliterated if this atomic bomb race reaches its logical conclusion. And it is because our survival is so utterly dependent upon the course of action taken by the United States that we

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in this House are entitled to express our views to the President and his Government. And if we seek to give advice, it does not mean either that we have lost our affection for the leaders and people of America or that we are not deeply grateful for all they have done for us.
What is it which has caused the start of the atomic arms race between the United States and Russia, which has got to be stopped if the world is to survive? I think that, difficult as it is to deal with, the cause is easy to define; it is mutual distrust and suspicion. And in this respect the attitude of the United States, in withholding the few remaining engineering and technical details of the bomb, is dangerous. It is certain that friendly co-operation between the United States, the British Empire and Russia is the only hope for the future of the world and, as the House well knows, no such co-operation exists today. I have listened to the weighty words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford. I am neither Russophile nor Russophobe, but an ordinary Englishman who is trying to take a realistic view of the situation as it is today. And it seems to me both obvious and understandable that Russia will not co-operate with the Western world as long as she is being treated at a lower level, as an inferior military Power, because of the conviction that she is not to be trusted. It is essential that Russia should be made to understand that we have no desire whatever to treat her on anything but an equal footing, and that the remaining details about the bomb, which have given America a two years' lead in time, will be at the disposal of Russia if she will agree to co-operate and above all to take part in a system of international controls and inspection which eminent British physicists say can be made effective.
I am of the opinion that His Majesty's Government have already lost an opportunity in not having made a general statement of policy some weeks ago to the effect that we desire to see no exclusive possession of the atomic bomb, but an all-embracing world security. The use to which the two bombs have already been put, in the absence of any saving explanation, the encouragement which today is being given to the suspicions of
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Russia, the time that has already been lost—it is 18 months since it was known that it would be possible to use the atomic bomb and almost five months since the first one was detonated—and the reticence of His Majesty's Government, give some grounds—I will not put it higher than that—for suspecting Ministerial ineptitude. This is no party matter, for science, like sex, knows no political alignments, and I assert that there is just as much uneasiness on the Government Benches as there is among my hon. Friends, and this uneasiness will persist until the Government take the House into their confidence.
In particular, we desire to know what are the intentions of the Government as regards the development of nuclear power for industrial purposes in this country. I was very glad to hear what my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford said, and to have read the declaration of the President, to the effect that there is nothing to stop the development of nuclear power in this country, but we still await the assurance of His Majesty's Government that they have every intention of taking advantage of the new knowledge to provide our people with all the advantages of atomic energy. I cannot help wondering whether the decision to develop nuclear power in this country awaits the outcome of the talks between the President and the Prime Minister. I hope that when the Government think fit to put their programme for the development of nuclear power before us we shall find that their proposals are broad and ambitious, because for Great Britain to be left behind in such a matter would be the equivalent to our continuing to live in the Stone Age while other nations move forward to Bronze and Iron. I hope nothing will be decided between the President and the Prime Minister which will in any way restrict the scope of His Majesty's Government in the development of nuclear power for industrial purposes in this country.
The Prime Minister will take with him to America the best wishes of all our people. I hope he will tell the President with that frankness and firmness which Americans respect that we have every intention of going ahead in the full-scale production in this country of nuclear power so as to give our people all the benefits that this discovery may have

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made available. I devoutly hope that these discussions will initiate a policy which will roll back the rising tide of fears and mistrust, and stop the atomic arms race. Otherwise nothing will restore the ruins of our cities or revive the millions of our dead.
4.59 p.m.
Major Bruce: I ask the indulgence of the House on making my maiden speech, and I would also like to ask its further indulgence should I, in the course of my remarks, expressing beliefs which are sincerely held, transgress a little the rule which I believe rather discourages controversy in a maiden speech.
Since the dropping of the atomic bomb, we have all been living, in a greater or less degree, under its shadow. The very circumstances of the dropping of the first atomic bomb were attended by consequences so disastrous that I cannot help feeling that those who were responsible for the decision as to the manner in which it should be dropped may yet have to review the rectitude of their decision. I think I speak in common with many other Members here when I say that the peace for which we have all worked or fought so hard has not brought the promised relief for which we had so devoutly hoped. Hon. Members here participated in a series of ceremonials and celebrations in the vicinity of this House. Many of us went down to our constituencies to VJ parties, and various other functions of that kind, but one could not help detecting a far greater restraint in celebrating the end of the war, than would possibly have been anticipated six months before its actual end. The war ended, and a new peace arrived well under the shadow of the manner of its ending.
Shortly after the House met we discussed and ratified the United Nations Charter, and it was to the United Nations Charter that the hopes and aspirations of the bulk of the people of our country, I felt at that time, were directed. The United Nations Charter and its ratification by this House did give to humanity some new hope that an organised effort might be made in the future in order that wars might be prevented. I make no apology for once again reading to this House the Preamble of the Charter of the
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United Nations. This Preamble is one which is destined to re-echo through this Chamber many times before many years are out. It says, in the most stirring terms:
"We, the peoples of the United Nations, determined—
to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which, twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and
to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and
to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from Treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and
to promote social progress and better standards of life and in larger freedom, and for these ends
have resolved to combine our efforts to accomplish these aims."
I venture to suggest that there are millions of people all over the world that did pin more than a considerable faith in the directness and in the power and in the nobility contained in the Preamble to the United Nations Charter, which we, in this Chamber, on 23rd August, did in fact, ratify. The Charter laid down the purposes and principles upon which the United Nations organisation was to be founded. It laid down conditions of membership, it gave details of various organisations of the United Nations, the Security Council, the Economic Council, etc.; it made provisions for the collective measures and action to be taken in respect of breaches of the peace and acts of aggression; and it made provision for the establishment of a Military Staff Committee to aid the Security Council. The details of the United Nations organisation or Charter can be examined practically anywhere, but the cardinal fact to note about the sum total is, that for the first time organised force was to be placed at the disposal of the United Nations.
The League of Nations which came to such an untimely end, mainly because lip service was paid to its principles as distinct from actions in support of it, suffered from the very great defect that there was no organised force placed at its disposal. But here, for the first time, there is some provision for organised force to be placed at the disposal of the United Nations as a whole. So much so that I feel that, when that Charter was ratified,

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some of the fears which had accumulated since the atomic bomb was dropped were, to some small extent, dispelled. In the meantime, there have been statements, which hon. Members have referred to here this afternoon, made by numerous scientists regardless of country, explaining the potentialities of atomic energy and insisting that it must be internationally controlled. One of the most remarkable things about them was that these scientists were unanimous and the dangers of any one nation holding the secrets of atomic power were set forth in most trenchant terms not only by Professor Oliphant, to whom reference has been made this afternoon, but also by Sir Lawrence Bragg, who said:
"I believe that any nation which contrives to keep atomic secrecy to itself is playing a dangerous game. The world's future lies in sharing knowledge, not in withholding it."
It was in this atmosphere, and with the statements of the scientists fresh before us, that President Truman's speech was made on 27th October last. Far be it from me to say anything which can be construed as hostile or critical of anything that the President of the United States may tell us or that his country may do. I have worked too long with them myself on the staff of the Supreme Allied Commander both in the planning, and in the execution, of the operation upon which we were recently engaged to want to do anything of that kind, but I must record my own view that the terms of the announcement by President Truman, particularly in relation to atomic energy, are in direct conflict with the provisions of the United Nations Charter. I would like to detail these a little because it is important that we should see just where this conflict lies. Article 47 of the United Nations Charter provides that:
"There shall be established a Military Staff Committee to advise and assist the Security Council on all questions relating to the Security Council's military requirements for the maintenance of international peace and security, the employment and command of forces placed at its disposal, the regulation of armaments and possible disarmament."
And later:
"The Military Staff Committee shall be responsible under the Security Council for the strategic direction of any Armed Forces placed at the disposal of the Security Council."
I invite the House to consider a military Committee meeting under the auspices of the United Nations in order to discuss
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either the limitation of armaments or to discuss possible action against any breach of the peace. The Military Staffs would gather round the table and would presumably go into all matters of war potential and strategy it was necessary to investigate in those circumstances. If President Truman's wishes are carried out in this matter there will be the American representatives in full possession of all the secrets as to the war potential of the atomic bomb, its whereabouts, its availability in terms of administration, and a whole lot of other military factors in relation to it; and the other participants on the Military Staff will be in entire ignorance as to the real war potential at the disposal of the United States in any discussion that actually takes place. It would be like a conference of military experts, one of whom had at his disposal a fleet of tanks and the balance had merely pea-shooters. How could atomic energy be placed at its disposal, with the entire secret remaining in the hands of any one particular nation?
The implication from President Truman's speech is not confined to that. Not only in my view does it transgress the whole spirit, if not the letter, of the United Nations Charter, but it also indicates that the United States does not trust other nations. There are many distrusts at the present time and these distrusts will have to be resolved. In regard to America it may be said straightaway that no nation can regard with equanimity any other nation, whose large private armament interests are not altogether bridled, having full and complete possession of atomic power secrets. My hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon-Walker) has given some details as to American proposals for economic expansion, and it is common knowledge amongst those of us who have been with, and have had the privilege and fortune to work with, the Americans to know that the economic drive upon which they are now engaged has been going on for some very considerable time. We know, those of us who were over in France, that American troops were accompanied by a large number of commercial individuals clothed in what was called assimilated rank; these travelled with the advancing American Army and in many cases commercial interests were sufficiently strong, despite the scarcity of transport before

1321
the invasion, to ensure that many commercial agents came over to this country on priority tickets quite near to the day of the invasion itself.
We on these benches are not hostile to commercial development, or expansion, but the danger has to be pointed out that commercial expansion carried out with all the full and secret resources of the atomic bomb at its disposal is likely, or shall I say is possible, to produce a tension; so that with the best will in the world, and regarding the United States as our best possible Ally, we can never be completely and finally sure that atomic energy and the atomic bomb will be used entirely for the purposes which have been set out in the President's Twelve Points.
One of the other causes of distrust amongst the United Nations at the present time arises from conceptions of democracy which, I think, probably inspired a good deal of the background of the President's speech. American views of democracy differ very considerably from those of Russia and to a less marked degree from our own. I do think, therefore, we can say a few words on democracy because upon our conception of democracy a considerable amount depends. It may be said that America has much political democracy, a little economic democracy and she has much democracy in her everyday social existence, and that she has developed means of public expression which are harnessed to very big business enterprises. So far as Britain is concerned, we may say that we have much political democracy; we have a growing economic democracy, as the measures which are now being pursued by the President of the Board of Trade in connection with his working parties serve to illustrate; and we have a growing democracy in social life; and our means of public expression are in substantially the same kind of hands, at the present time, as in the United States. In Russia, on the other hand, we have a state that has almost complete economic democracy; almost complete democracy in social life; which has a growing, and only a growing, political democracy; and which has up to now a censorship over the means of news getting into and out of her territories.
The only point I am trying to make is that, if we are considering democracy, we must consider it as a whole, and we
1322
must say that it is not always applicable within a fancy political context I make that point because implicit in President Truman's statement there was, obviously, some indirect reference to the present state of affairs in Poland, Rumania and Bulgaria. Many of us on this side of the House wonder why so many of those hon. Members on the Opposition Benches who are now extolling the virtues of democracy in these unhappy countries, did not see fit to denounce the Fascist or semi-Fascist régimes existing in those countries before the war. I think that we cannot impose a Western democracy on countries whose economic state and condition will not support it, but that does not mean to say that we should accept any idea of democracy other than our own. We have to consider the attitudes of all other States towards the whole application of democracy, and we should not thereby be drawn into a conflict with Russia over what is, after all, a very broad question.
Russia distrusts the big democracies, and, if I may say so, she has had every reason in the past to do so. No country has been more shockingly vilified than Russia in the years preceding the war, and I am afraid it is quite true that Russia still suffers from a hangover of her pre-war treatment. She will suspect America as a capitalist country, and, after all, capitalism has in the past produced wars: she will suspect Britain as a matter of tradition, because Britain has attacked her and stooped to every conceivable trick to attack her in the years before the war. She will continue to resent talking too much democracy to the Balkans so long as we retain our present relationship with Spain and tolerate the state of affairs which exists in Greece.
But the fact that we, in this country, are now a social democracy entitles us to talk to Russia in terms, not only comradely, but also, occasionally, critical. I feel that Russia must understand, or must begin to appreciate, that in this country social democracy is a valid form of socialism. I have a quotation here which may illustrate that point of view from a standard more acceptable to herself. In the preface to the English edition of ''Das Kapital," written nearly 60 years ago by Friedrich Engels, it is declared:
"Surely, at such a moment, the voice ought to be heard of a man whose whole theory is the result of a life-long study of the economic history and condition of England,

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and whom that study led to the conclusion that, at least in Europe, England is the only country where the inevitable social revolution might be effected entirely by peaceful and legal means."
It is very necessary for us to point out to Russia that that revolution has, in fact, already taken place. Russia may remember also that, amongst the American people, there is a love for democracy which has no limitations, and the nation that is capable of such gigantic work as the T.V.A. scheme is not far removed from the ideals and purposes inspiring Russia's own efforts.
We are, in the words of Matthew Arnold:
"between two worlds—one dead, one powerless to be born."
We have to decide in this country what part we can play in order to bring a new world into being. The first thing which, I think, we can do is to break from the past traditional foreign policy of our country, and to make that break quite sharp, obvious and clean, and, to that end, to take the appropriate and necessary action in relation to the two countries I have mentioned. The old diplomacy is completely dead. With the coming of the atomic bomb, we could, if we wished, tear up completely Clausewitz's classic "On War." It no longer has any validity. The second thing that we can do is to preserve the virility inherent in our democracy by taking a lead and urging full support for the United Nations Organisation, by surrendering some of our own sovereignty to it, by taking the lead in urging the United States to impart all the data in relation to the atomic bomb to the United Nations organisation and to surrender the whole control of it to the machinery set up.
Further, we should proclaim to the world the basis of our social democracy as Socialism, because in this country now, we are Socialists, and, though we may derive some of our philosophy from philosophers from other countries—such as Marx and Engels, and other great thinkers from America like Roosevelt, Mumford and Lincoln—we have our own philosophy, which has a validity for our own country—and the basis which I think, is expressed more adequately by a British Socialist—William Morris—who spoke of the two main essentials of life as being fearless rest and peaceful work. He said:
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"Troublous as life is, it is surely given to each one of us here those times and seasons when, surrounded by simple and beautiful things, we have felt really at rest. When the earth and all its plenteous growth, and the varied token of the life of men, and the very waste of sky and air above us have all seemed to conspire together to make us calm and happy, not slothful, but restful. Still oftener belikes we have had those other times when, at long last, after many a struggle with incongruous hindrances, our whole life's work has lain before us stripped of all complexities and unrealities; and we have felt that nothing, not even ourselves, could hold us back from the work that we were born to do; and that we were men and worthy of life. Such rest and such work I wish for myself, for you and for all mankind. To have the space and time to gain such rest and such work is the end of politics; to learn how best to gain it is the end of education; to divine its innermost meaning is the end of religion."
5.24 p.m.
Sir Ronald Ross: It is very seldom that one is privileged to congratulate three new hon. Members of this House, but, on this occasion, I have that pleasant task before me. In congratulating, first, the hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon-Walker), may I say that I listened to his speech with the very greatest interest? It was very well-informed, lucid and well expressed, and I hope he will not be offended if I say that I agree with much of what he said, because, on all other subjects, I think it is most unfortunate if one receives applause from the other side. If we can have a foreign policy which is above party, and thus national, the nation is thereby strengthened. In fact, I regret to say that I agree with the hon. Member for Smethwick rather more than with the hon. and gallant Member for Solihull (Lieut.-Colonel Lindsay) whose speech, after long and painful experience of this war, was sincere, interesting and informative. I think it may well be that the hon. and gallant Member will distinguish himself in this field as much as he distinguished himself in the course of the war, and that is paying him a very high compliment.
Then there is the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for North Portsmouth (Major Bruce), which was both sincere and full of ideas which I think I shall find very refreshing, though I must say that the prospect of an American traveller carrying samples in the one hand, and an atomic bomb in the other, fills one with a certain anxiety. I was particularly glad to hear his allusion to that very

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famous English Socialist, William Morris, because some of my favourite reading comprised certain of his works, which contained all that fairy tale quality that is such a feature of his more serious political work.
I would like to address myself to the remarks of the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Clement Davies) who I am sorry is no longer in the House. The hon. and learned Member has all those qualities of Welsh oratory and rhetoric that we saw so admirably employed today. I have never heard a more passionate and successful denunciation of the methods employed in foreign affairs by Liberal Governments, when there still were Liberal Governments, than he put forward today. He denounced in the most slashing terms the way in which Liberal Governments used to try and arrange the affairs of the nation, and, at the same time, denounced the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. I have always felt sure that the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery was a man just approaching the prime of life and in full possession of every faculty, but, as the speech which he denounced as having been delivered by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill), did not seem to me to bear any relation to it whatever, I can only assume that his hearing is not as keen as it used to be.
As I understood my right hon. Friend's speech, particularly on the point of the atomic bomb, it was that the United States was at present the trustee of that weapon. It is no good our saying how horrible it is and how appalled we would be if it were used. We all know that. That is the universal nightmare. The real question is a practical one, and my right hon. Friend is looking to the United States as trustees of the atomic bomb. The word "international "occasionally has a hypnotic effect on people who desire to have things on an international basis. Let us try to be practical. The United Nations Organisation is not yet a going concern. In due course, I have little doubt that the atomic bomb can be the main instrument by which the United Nations Organisation may make its authority felt, or, at any rate, its authority respected, if not felt.
There is only one really important point in connection with the atomic bomb, and
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that is that it should not be used. I think we are all agreed upon that. We are so interested and so concerned with this weapon that I think we are inclined to over-elaborate the whole question. Now what point is there in distributing knowledge of the atomic bomb all over the world? I cannot see a case that it should be given only to Russia. Russia is our faithful Ally, and I think that if there is a serious divergence in policies between Russia and other nations, a greater disaster cannot be imagined. But is that the only country to be given the secret of the atomic bomb? I cannot see on what logical ground that argument could be put forward, because, if it comes to the question of gaining the confidence of other countries, the record of Russia is not particularly encouraging. I think that very many of the difficulties and suspicions in Europe today are due to lack of knowledge, to lack of information of the territories which are at present administered by Russia. If the Press of Europe and of America could be given free access to these countries, many old suspicions which grew up, as they always grow, in the dark, would disappear. One cannot say with any great confidence that Russia has, so far, shown a very encouraging example of a desire to share her secrets with those of her Allies, and, in fact, the impression one gets is rather the reverse.
The danger of the atomic bomb, apart from a general horror description of what happens when it goes off, is that it is the ideal weapon for the aggressor nation. The aggressor nation—Germany in both wars—has striven for a quick knock-out; the careful preparation, the calculated blow, and then a quick peace—a quick, short war in which you can decimate your opponent so soon that you get the fruits of victory without any great exhaustion to yourself. For that, obviously this contrivance—and I rather deprecate people saying they know all about it and that nothing else is any good at all, because the knowledge even of the experts is still limited, and it is much too new a thing for anyone to be didactic as to its potentialities—is the ideal weapon of the gangster nation on the make. Now, whatever anybody may say about the United States, the United States is the least gangsterish nation on the make in the world today—[An Hon. Member: "It is the home of gangsters."] I am talking

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nationally. Therefore, I submit that it is obviously the most fit country to be the trustee of this weapon until such time as we have the ordered Parliament of the world in the United Nations, which we have not got at present. Can it be argued that it would make for the peace of the streets if there were a distribution of pistols or firearms? Because that, in the realm of the individual, is what the distribution of the atomic bomb would be in the realm of nations.
However, I do not want to take any more time on the subject of the atomic bomb. That is rather a subject which seems to have had more attention paid to it in this Debate than is useful, and there are many other matters, particularly in connection with our relations with America, which could usefully be discussed. I would like to mention especially the seventh of the points made by President Truman. There is no doubt that we can all, and should all, welcome those Twelve Points. Also, I think no one appreciates plain speaking more than the Americans. What is meant by the freedom of the seas? It is a vague term and there is much in the Twelve Points that could be construed in entirely different senses by two lawyers. It is always difficult to get a precise pronouncement in declarations of this kind. The only really sound parallel which I can suggest is that of the first Prime Minister of Northern Ireland who, in discussing the question of ceding territory to the Irish Free State, said, "Not an inch"—and everybody knew exactly what that meant. However, it is much more difficult in Articles of this kind. The curious feature about the declaration of the freedom of the seas is how American policy has interpreted it. At the beginning of the war, there is no doubt that the freedom of the seas was completely abandoned by the United States, as soon as the German submarine war was declared against this country, because, alone among the shipping of neutral countries, American shipping was forbidden to approach the shores of Great Britain. In fact, it amounted practically to a blockade. I do not think that was consistent with what I should have imagined was in the mind of President Truman. In the days of "cash and carry," Britain was a forbidden area for American shipping. I think it would
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be most unfortunate if the United States ever became tired of being a first-class naval Power. We have had to be the sea policemen for generations. Whether it be a shipwreck or an earthquake, we have generally been obliged to send British ships to the scene, I hope that in future the United States will bear its share.
I would like to refer to another of the Twelve Points made by President Truman, that which relates to access to trade and raw materials. That access may be quite as easily prevented by currency differences as by legislative enactment. We had spent every cent of our foreign exchange before Lend-Lease was introduced for carrying on the fight, which is now recognised to have been a fight for the United States as much as for ourselves. Therefore, we are now shut off from the dollar countries, and it is impossible to buy American goods when we wish to do so. I trust that will be borne in mind in any discussions that will take place in the United States, because the lack of dollars produced by the war must result in a lack of trade. I have often thought that the most useful thing in international affairs, if it could be achieved, would be a common currency, because nothing is more unfortunate than to get into a dollar area and a sterling area. Nothing is worse for trade. I think all the attention of this country and the United States could be very usefully directed to that end, as I think it is to some extent being directed. The only other thing I would say about the United States is that we must always remember we are different countries, but if we are different countries, in our general ideas there are no two countries more alike.
5.40 p.m.
Mr. Ungoed-Thomas: May I beg the indulgence of the House for yet another maiden speech? Nobody who has spoken in the House for the first time or who has been, as I have now been for some little time, on the verge of speaking, can doubt the sincerity of that request. The foreign policy of this country has undergone a great change during this century. It has now been brought into the homes of the people, it affects our daily lives, and it even affects our actuarial prospect of life. There must, therefore, be a correspond-

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ing change in the method of handling foreign policy. There is far too much, and there has been far too much, polite diplomatic language and ersatz explanations which conceal the true position. Therefore, I welcome the stand made by the Foreign Secretary at the London Conference, and some of the bald statements in the speech of President Truman, because they serve to blow away some of this camouflage. As a new boy, fresh from the country, I urge upon the Government the tremendous importance nowadays of telling the country as much as possible about foreign affairs. Let people know where we stand; let them know what is happening. After all, if things go wrong, it is the people who suffer under modern conditions, and they are entitled to know. Tell them what has happened at these conferences. Tell them—what, in fact, we are all puzzled about—what happened at Quebec. Let us know at the earliest possible moment what will have happened at Washington. Tell the people, as the Leader of the Liberal party requested the Government to do, everything possible. Let this Socialist Government, which depends upon the confidence of the people, themselves confide in the people.
The crucial problem in foreign affairs nowadays, as I understand it, is the relationship of the three great Powers: America, Russia and ourselves; particularly America and ourselves, on the one hand, and Russia on the other hand. Even during the recent Debate on conditions in Europe the supreme importance of the relationship of the Western Allies to Russia came out quite clearly. Reference was there made to zoning—the zoning of Austria, Germany, Berlin—and that zoning policy quite clearly stood condemned in the opinion of this House, because it was a policy which divided up the Continent, a separatist policy where cohesion was what was required. The dreadful part of it is that this zoning policy does not stop there, it is merely a part of a bigger zoning policy—spheres of influence. The policy of spheres of influence, as I understand it, was brought into this post war world by decisions taken at the Teheran Conference. I am not blaming anybody for any decisions taken there; they were taken under the stress of war, and those at the Conference were rightfully concentrating upon winning the war at the earliest pos-
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sible moment. However, the result has been that this policy of spheres of influence, designed for military purposes, for war and strategy, has, in fact, been projected into peacetime conditions and into peacetime policy. This has meant that there has been brought into our new post-war world, power politics. We are already there. We must recognise the stark fact that nowadays, however much we may talk about a United Nations Organisation and the like, we are dealing with a power politics world. The relationship of the three countries, Russia, America and ourselves, dominates every question of foreign policy. Solve that relationship and then, almost automatically, solutions will be far more easily found for all the other problems of foreign policy.
Take the distress in Europe. The difficulty there has appeared again during recent Debates, and will be fresh in the memory of the House, and is a useful illustration of my theme. It is quite clear that the expulsion of German populations is due not so much to hatred and revenge for the past, as to fear and suspicion for the future. As for the urgency to have these populations expelled before this winter, nobody imagines that before this winter is through we shall be faced with a resurrected Germany as a military power in the world. The proposition has only to be stated for that to be perfectly clear. The fear and suspicion is not of Germany, at all; it is of the Western Allies. Let us be frank, and recognise that. Or look at the map. Poland, Czechoslovakia, Rumania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Austria, Hungary, Greece, Palestine, Persia, India, Japan, the Pacific Bases, the Western bloc and the sterling bloc—there is hardly one problem connected with those countries and questions that is not dominated by this relationship of the three great Powers.
We have heard a good deal about democracy, and the use of that word. It has been said that the difficulty has been due to the difficulty of interpretation. But the difficulty about this word, "democracy," has not been due to the difficulty in interpreting the meaning into Russian and English. If that were the only difficulty it would be quickly rectified. The difficulty has been due to the fact that there has been no common meaning to interpret, the Russians intending one thing, while we intend a different

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thing. The difficulty has been to arrive at any common meaning, common intention, common agreement. That is the difficulty, not the mere difficulty of interpretation.
Take our own interpretation of "democracy." How do we interpret and apply it? Do we always apply it with the same meaning? We must frankly admit that there is some ground for the suggestion that, even for us, it has one meaning in Greece, another in Austria, and another in Bulgaria. It becomes more dogmatic the nearer you approach Russia, the nearer you get into the Russian sphere of influence. Why are we not bothering about democracy, if democracy is what we are concerned about, in friendly Turkey and Portugal? Can we honestly say that it is merely democracy that we are concerned about? Why, then, this concern about democracy in the Eastern European countries? As the Foreign Secretary said in his great speech in August—his massive speech—what Europe is concerned about now is its existence. She is concerned with food and shelter and clothing, not with politics and mental aspirations. There is an ancient saying that "life comes before the good life.'' You must have life, before there is any possibility of its being good. You cannot establish liberty and justice except upon a foundation of order. Why then do we talk about democracy to starving chaotic people? I believe, I am sure we all know, that we have a sincere belief in democracy, a belief in that which has stood the test of time. But can we truthfully say that there is no foundation for the suggestion that we are concerned with democratic forms of government in Eastern Europe because a democratic government would have affinity with us, would be more inclined towards us than towards some country with a different form of government? To put the obverse of that: Would not the Russian form of government in the Eastern countries of Europe incline more readily towards Russia, and away from us? I am not blaming ourselves or Russia in this matter at all. So long as power politics dominate, so long as that policy calls the tune, then we must dance its grim dance. But let us realise that it is power politics. If we do not recognise the affliction we can never find the remedy.
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What remedy and what hope are there in President Truman's speech? I would like to comment on one or two of its points, but I will come directly to what seems to be the root of the matter—the twelfth point, to which the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) referred. The President spoke of a United Nations Organisation. What organisation is this to which he refers? He stressed, throughout his speech, the importance of sovereignty, and of preserving sovereignty, and he referred—a lawyer will appreciate this point—not to the use of joint force, but to the joint use of force. In other words, his speech does not contemplate a military command under the operation of some world organisation; the President takes the position no further than the San Francisco organisation, and what hope is there in San Francisco? San Francisco is just a repetition of Geneva, a bigger edition, of stronger paper perhaps, but essentially paper. There is no fusion of sovereignty here, no diminution of the sovereignty of any sovereign State. The organisation has no attribute of sovereignty or any quality of a State. It is merely bringing the balance of power from the Chancelleries to the conference table, and that offers no firm foundation for building the kind of world which can save us.
Have we nothing to say about this? This country is not unqualified to speak in these matters. We have given self-government to the world; we are giving it economic self-government, too. We have given it representative government, free government, federalism, and by this means we have converted an Empire into a Commonwealth. Have we nothing to say on this subject? Has our genius stopped short at this stage, when the world is crying for deliverance? I believe the answer tame from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) when France was in her agony—a common State and a common citizenship. I appreciate the tremendous difficulties—ideological, religious, social, economic and political—but we live in an atomic age and the courage, imagination and creative capacity of our scientists must be matched by the same qualities in our statesmen. Scientists have given us atomic energy: statesmen must give us a world capable of holding it.

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What do we suggest? I suggest that the Government should keep closely in touch with opinion right through this country. For 25 years opinion in this country has been ahead of the Government. Let us now, with a Socialist Government, ensure that we have not a Government behind the people, but a Government giving a strong lead to the people. I hope the Prime Minister will consider making a declaration, if need be a unilateral declaration. President Truman has made his, and M. Molotov has made his, so why should not we make a unilateral declaration, stating to the world exactly how far we are prepared to go, and what practical steps we are prepared to take towards establishing a world commonwealth? The Prime Minister has the complete confidence of our people just as his great predecessor, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford had their confidence during his tenure of office. My right hon. Friend will go to Washington with the complete confidence of us all, irrespective of party and, irrespective of party I am sure that all wish him God-speed in his great mission.
5.59 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Ernest Bevin):I think we have all been encouraged by the maiden speeches to which we have had great pleasure in listening. These have been thoughtful, constructive and representative speeches, made on what I might call the heart-searching of the nation for a solution of the great problems which lie before us; temperate in their delivery and yet expressing, if I may say so, through their youth, a greater hope for the future than we have been able to exhibit hitherto. It is very encouraging in this House and in this Parliament to feel that, as we pass on, young, capable, energetic, constructive minds are coming along to rule this great country of ours. I would like also to express to all Members who have spoken, our gratitude and thanks for their good wishes to the Prime Minister, in carrying out the task that lies ahead of him in his visit to Washington. There is one thing about this country and this House, and that is that however much we may disagree on whether we have enough houses or fried fish shops, we seem to agree on the imperative necessity of Britain retaining her moral lead in the world.
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I want, however, to plunge if I may into the most acute side of this discussion which came at the latter end of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill). In this connection let me pay my tribute to President Truman for his frankness, for taking the world into his confidence, and for endeavouring in the Twelve Points to express in such a complete form what the United States feel about the whole of this great difficulty. If I may first make reference to the claim, which is a very serious claim, of the scientists to supersede the State, we must say in response to the question put to me that His Majesty's Government cannot surrender either their power or their duty in the field of government to any section of the community. We have great decisions on policy and sometimes, to be quite frank, we have to enter into an arrangement in their development with other countries; and when you select people to enter into the study and research of these things, and they know of and have indeed entered into an understanding to observe not only the Official Secrets Act but the honour of their own country, then I think that ought to be observed and respected in carrying out their duty.
The campaign that has gone on recently has not only been disturbing but has been unfair to the responsibility of Members of this House and His Majesty's Government as well. For let it be remembered that we are not the sole agents in this matter. I want hon. Members to feel that in the United States there is a greater disturbance in the public mind on account of their being the possessors of this bomb, and a greater responsibility weighs upon them than on some countries who are not in possession of it. They are feeling their way as to what is the right thing to do. I think that it is quite understandable that before you plunge into a step which may be disastrous, you are entitled to ask, not only the conditions which you are prepared to observe, but the conditions that others who are going to share the trust with you are going to observe also. I would like to say, speaking for myself for a moment, that since I have been in thisoffice—and I think it would be true of my predecessor—I have never for one moment, when considering what decisions I should give on this or that issue, considered the atomic bomb. I have looked

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at despatches from our Ambassadors overseas, and from all the information I have been able to get—and I make this declaration which I hope will be accepted throughout the world—I have never once allowed myself to think that I could arrive at this or that decision because Britain was or was not in possession of the atomic bomb.
Believe me, however great the power of weapons may be, whoever the Foreign Secretary may be, once he departs from a code of conduct of deciding these things to the best of his ability on the ground of what is right, then you will drift to disaster. When I was challenged jocularly recently at a conference in London about the atomic bomb I said in reply: "Not a single answer I have given, or a single decision I have taken in this conference—not for one moment have I thought of it." But there is another very great test you must apply in your decisions. If I may say so with almost religious conviction, when I have been asked to take a decision on policy in this or that direction, I have remembered all the time the implied obligations that this House and this Government—all Governments, our predecessors as well as ourselves—have entered into in connection with the United Nations. We say to ourselves: If we take this decision, although the United Nations Organisation is not yet established, are we taking a decision that will ultimately fail to fit in with the framework and obligations we are entering into. That is the test which, I suggest, if followed carefully will keep this country on the right lines.
These undertakings are not the under takings of the old League of Nations. First, the number of countries that have signed and undertaken obligations under the new world organisation is far wider than was ever undertaken by the League of Nations. Secondly, these very Twelve Points, which the President on behalf of the United States has entered into, never existed at any time during the existence of the League of Nations. The League of Nations had to struggle along with Russia out of it on the one side, and the United States out of it on the other, with a chauvinism that the war in 1918 did not destroy, but only held in temporary abeyance for recrudescence at a later stage. That I think is the great difference in the two positions. Therefore having
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regard to the declaration of President Truman and having regard to the wider area that the United Nations represent and not merely its wider area from the point of view of adherence to wider functions than the League of Nations actually undertook, it is all the more important, to ascertain, with careful judgment, whether what we are doing would jeopardise it or not.
In that I am ready to confess, and I think it is understandable, that there is a conflict—a conflict of principles which only time and understanding can really reconcile. You get a frightful nightmare of insecurity arising at every turn. On the other hand, you have the principle of co-operation, which I have referred to, standing out as your goal. The great difficulty arises, largely due to the terrific struggle of the last six years, of whether or not you can entirely obliterate what are sometimes called the spheres of influence, and power politics. Sometimes, in these negotiations, I make the confession that power politics seem to me to be naked and unashamed; the next moment, you see searching and striving for the other ideal. I would ask the House not to be too impatient in this transition period. I do not believe myself that you are going to settle this world by old time methods of a peace conference, such as was held in 1919. There are so many things to be done. Remember that the world has moved, as I said in the speech I made when I first took office, and that world affairs have got to be dealt with on the economic plane as well as on the political plane. Here you have masses of people throughout the world who in this war were led to believe—and I believe in time they will be satisfied—that they would have a higher standard of living than ever before. That is true, everywhere, I think. Secondly, the world is a much smaller place than it has ever been before; and, thirdly, this great demand for social justice cannot be withheld. The question is whether it will become so impatient for satisfaction that you cannot satisfy it with the production you have available quickly enough and urgently enough. I think President Truman realised this in his Twelve Points.
The atomic bomb is one phase of scientific development, and there has been great excitement at the prospect that this atomic bomb, or atomic energy, is likely

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to produce great industrial energy very quickly. I do not believe it at all. I think we ought really to get down to a sense of balance about this. It will be long, weary, hard, patient work, before this new form of energy is available to rejuvenate and revolutionise the energy of the world in industrial and other spheres, and I do not think that the excitement about it is so justified as people make out. That encourages me to believe that, in view of the fact that the industrial side of it is both costly and long term, and has to be patiently evolved, it gives us time to build up the United Nations organisation for peace time efforts and world organisation; so that as atomic energy evolves in industry, the necessity for its use as a weapon will have disappeared by reason of the new world organisation which we will endeavour to create.
I am not too disturbed about it. I have already said that policy cannot be shaped upon it. You can, if you will, have regard to the disasters that would arise from a wrong judgment, not on the use of the atomic bomb but on the policy one is pursuing in connection with world peace, which would lead to the use of the atomic bomb. Therefore, I put policy in connection with world peace as the absolutely predominant consideration in nullifying the desire for any more of these destructive weapons. In that we have to be constantly at work, and constantly endeavouring to arrive at it. I have already said that power politics, spheres of influence and that kind of approach to world affairs do present great difficulties. I used, at the Labour Party Conference at Blackpool, quite a simple phrase, which I now repeat as an appeal to the great Powers on behalf of His Majesty's Government. Put the cards on the table face upwards. We are ready to do it.
What do we want to do? What do we want to retain? For myself, and for His Majesty's Government, I have openly stated, in this House and at the Labour Party Conference, and on the public platform, that we will take no steps, we will do nothing nor allow any of our agents or diplomats to do anything which will stir up hatred, or provoke or create a situation detrimental to Russia in the Eastern countries. We recognise—indeed, it was a British invention—the Monroe
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doctrine in the Western hemisphere. But if security against attack and intrigue and the stirring up of difficulties is given, I cannot accept that the natural thing that follows from that is to close the door and prevent entry or any contact with those peoples for trade or anything else. I say that these are two separate and distinct things.
Neither am I prepared to accept the contention, so often blared from Moscow radio, that Russia claims the right to have friendly relationships with her near neighbours, even as President Roosevelt claimed a good neighbour policy for South America, of which we approved; while I am to be regarded as a criminal if I ask to be on good relations with nations bordering on the British frontier. What am I doing wrong? I am doing nothing to injure anybody, and I am not prepared to accept that position from any other country in the world. What His Majesty's Government are willing to give, they claim the right to have for their part with France, with Holland, Belgium, Scandinavia or other countries—not a Western bloc for war purposes. They are our cultural friends; they are our historical associates; they acknowledge the same democracy as we do, and, therefore, I say that I am entitled, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, to have good neighbours in my street, just as any other country is entitled to have good neighbours in any other street. I am perhaps a little energetic about this, but I am a little resentful, and I think the House will agree that I am entitled to be. After all, if there have been invading armies in the East of Europe, there has been the blast of war in Western Europe. Much of Europe's great civilisation has been almost destroyed by this frightful struggle.
Therefore, I welcome President Truman's declaration. I think it is a healthy one. These things are to be done by agreement, not by force, not by aggression. They are to be voluntarily entered into with the acquiescence of the people concerned. His Majesty's Government accept that, and we want it not merely for our protection; we do not want it because we are afraid to defend ourselves. We have given examples of that, Heaven only knows. Reverting to the original speech I made in this House when I took this office, I say that I regard the great economic development, the lifting

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of the burden of the life of the people, as the most important element in foreign policy. I believe that this country has much to give and much to gain by proper exchange and arrangements with other countries in cultural, economic and artistic life. I have often stood and watched little children in a park going to a fountain to drink. The cups are hung on a chain; one drinks two cups, another drinks one. They never quarrel, because there is enough for both. I think that is true of the great productive capacity of the world. There need be no jealousy, no competition. Our capacity is so great that we can do it.
The right hon. Member for Woodford said that if such a declaration had been made by President Trumanin 1914, the war might possibly have been avoided. If it had been repeated in 1939, war might equally have been avoided. From the point of view of encouragement both to our own people and the United States, these declarations are wonderful; but our policy must be such that they must be capable of being given effect to if ever they are challenged. That is to say, our relationships, our knowledge, our planning, our arrangements in economics and defence must be such that we are ready to stop aggression, should the occasion arise. I assume that when President Truman made this great declaration he did, in fact, mean what he said in his references to the navy, the army, and the industrial development of that great country, that he was laying down not merely a slogan or a platitude, but was indicating the roadway that the United States intend to follow in relation to the rest of the world.
The right hon. Gentleman said that his heart was heavy. I must confess that mine is not. I will tell the House why. I think we so deluded ourselves in 1918, largely, probably through propaganda during the war, but also largely because we had not had a war for a long time and did not know what it all meant. We have this advantage, terrible as it may seem: Not only have we had the 1914–18 war, but this horrible war for six years, and then the atomic bomb. I would say to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford that this Government is probably in a better position than other Governments have been in at the end of a war, because there is a greater public
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consciousness, both of the duties and the dangers, than there has ever been in the history of the country. I am not uttering one word of criticism of what has gone before. I think that responsibility is accepted by the humblest people in the country, and they are in a better position now to help us to work out the right policy than ever in the history of our country. The very bombing, the very attack upon us, the fact that the civilians have paid the price, as well as the soldiers overseas, the fact that we have not profited out of this war, the fact that we have to face the bill even now—and a very heavy one indeed—the taxes we have to pay, the rationing we still have to undergo and the continued obligations we have to meet, I regret all that, but I cannot help feeling that His Majesty's Government are in a favoured position, both to mould public opinion and to guide this great issue of peace and war, because of the very backing we shall get in trying to find a solution.
Every speaker to-day has indicated the same kind of attitude of mind. I welcome it because I believe that the close unison of this House, the exchange of views and understanding and, whatever other controversy we may have in the country, telling the people the truth about these things, will enable us to pull through and play our proper part. It has been argued by many people that the coming of the atomic bomb would wipe out the need of armies, navies or air forces. I think that is quite amisconception. What are the duties, apart from fighting, of armies, navies and air forces? If you take 100 years, I suppose it would be fair to say that for 85 to 90 per cent. of that time their duties have been police duties. In this world you must keep law and order; you cannot carry on civilisation in any other way. I do not suppose that it is in any hon. Member's mind that, every time somebody becomes obstreperous, you should fetch out the atomic bomb—with disastrous results. I think it is much better to drop a leaflet which, probably, in an ordinary disturbance, has just as good, or probably a better result.
What astounds me about the history of the British Navy is how cheaply we have policed the world for 300 years. I often think, when I read this history, that it is a good job no one called our bluff very often, for really, in the discussions in this House on Budgets and Esti-

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mates, looking back over it, we did take some frightful risks at times. I think the world was policed largely by the British Navy with less than 100,000 men. That is a very cheap police force, if you consider the size of the whole world. Therefore, I do not want us either to get in a panic about the atomic bomb or to regard it as a substitute for the ordinary normal means of policing the world under ordinary and normal conditions. Neither would I like to see police forces, or military forces, regarded as being a weapon of offence. It is a question of balance, and a question of what is right for keeping order.
I hope that, as the United Nations Organisation grows, we shall succeed in cutting down military expenditure to a minimum, but not to such a point that will make the United Nations Organisation ineffective, in itself, to stop aggression. Therefore, the Government of the day, as time goes on, will have to balance that very, very carefully. His Majesty's Government at the moment have very, very wide obligations all over the world. There is the aftermath of the war, which is very costly and very difficult, but we are not taking any risks until we are quite out of the wood. I think the House will support us in that. Do please remember that the atomic bomb might have been preceded—if not by quite as dangerous a weapon—by very important weapons, if our enemies had been successful, prior to the final solution of the atomic bomb. Therefore, do not let us keep our minds solely on the atomic bomb.
There are many other forms of scientific development of an equally disastrous kind. There, again, it is a question of arriving at a moment of complete confidence as to whom you entrust it to. The right to that complete confidence does not depend upon the sentiment of what you do with scientific discoveries; it depends upon a confidence as to the policy you are all following, and the obligations you are entering into. I do not believe that any international legal gentleman, or anybody, can devise a plan wherein an international inspectorate is worth anything in this matter. There is only one way in which you can be positive in running an international organisation, and that is when that organisation accepts fully such an obligation and policy, and you can trust their word without having to send a
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policeman round every time. We have got to arrive at that stage, but we have not arrived at it yet. I think we are still too near the war.
The right hon. Gentleman said we agreed to give inventions to other countries, but we did not have any in return. It may be that they were frightened to give us any in return, but we did set the example, which was a very big thing. Therefore, if our example is to be followed, let it really get into the pool before we take an undue risk. If I may refer to Russia, I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that we have met almost every demand that we ever thought would be made. At Moscow, at Yalta, and the rest of those conferences, no one dreamed there would be further territorial demands except here or there, and the Straits adjustment. One would have thought everything had been conceded. I must say that having conceded all this, and not having taken one inch of territory, or asked for it, one cannot help being a little suspicious if a great Power wants to come right across, shall I say, the throat of the British Commonwealth, which has done no harm to anybody, but fought this war. One is driven to ask oneself the motive; that is not unreasonable, and I think that we must get down to stopping this demand for transfer of territory, and, within reason, make adjustments here and there. It is of little value. All this chopping and changing of frontiers over hundreds of years has made people very little richer—[An Hon. Member: "Or more secure."]—or more secure. And do remember this—I make this plain because sometimes we are lectured about it—in the British Empire, we gave freedom where it did not exist before, by the development of the Commonwealth.
No one can read the policy of His Majesty's Government, within the few months that have followed this war, without seeing the desperate efforts we are making to extend that liberty and the Commonwealth idea still further. It is time we sang our own song a little. In view of what has been laid before this House since we have been in office—the efforts the Colonial Office have made, and others, in trying to rebuild these territories on a wider and progressive development of freedom—at least let us take credit when we are just. We get kicks enough sometimes when the charge against us is not

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proven, and we get terribly kicked when it is proven. I conclude, therefore, by urging that our eyes should be fixed upon the United Nations' Organisation. All nations of the world should be united to look that way, to judge their policy, as we will do, by whether it leads to that great goal—the only goal in my judgment—of creating a world organisation, capable and masterful enough, united enough, to hold in check this evolution of scientific discovery, and make it the servant of man and not his destroyer.
6.41 p.m.
Mr. Osborne: May I ask for that degree of indulgence which is accorded to a new Member when making his maiden speech, and express the hope that as few hon. Members as possible will leave the House? Having sat here for three hours waiting, as we used to say in the last war, "sweating on the top line," my nerves have gone to pieces, if ever I had any. I want to put to the House one or two simple, practical ideas on Anglo-American affairs which I hope hon. Members will endorse. I do not propose to talk about the atomic bomb, because I do not understand it at all, and I think that is a fairly good reason. But the Prime Minister and his advisers are going to America, and I am sure that from this side of the House, as well as from the other side, we wish them the greatest possible success, because I am convinced that upon American solidarity depend the future peace and welfare of the world. If we cannot collaborate with Americans, who have inherited our traditions, our ways of life, our prejudices, our religion, our laws, how can we expect to get on with the Czechs, the Poles, the Jews, the Arabs, and the Russians? Let us do the things that are easy first.
My excuse for intervening, after such a long wait, is that, during the war, I have had the pleasure of working in a voluntary capacity with the American Forces, mostly with the airborne troops, in the country. I had the privilege of establishing the first information centre for the American troops in this country, and during the past three and a half years something like 10,000 men have passed through that centre. If the House will bear with me, I should like to explain the method we used because, simple though it may be, I think it is effective and can be used elsewhere. We dealt with G.Is.
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and not with officers. In the 1914–18 war, I served as a Tommy Atkins throughout, and my sympathy was with the G.Is. We had volunteers ready to write to every man's mother or his wife. We had one amusing case. A man said he was married, but when we asked for his address he inquired what we wanted it for. One of my good-looking girls said she was going to write to his wife, but he said, "No, Mom, you don't; she will think there is something wrong." We sent thousands of letters and we had thousands in reply—mostly grateful letters, sometimes tragic and sorrowful because the last occasion on which the writers had heard from their sons or husbands was when they heard from our centre. We built up in that way hundreds of good contacts with the American people. Laws and regulations mean nothing, unless the good will of the ordinary people is behind them. We have in America today more ambassadors of peace than we have ever had since 1776. I think it is fairly true to say that about 2,000,000 American soldiers have gone through Britain during the war, and I believe something like half a million of them have been entertained in English homes. They have made contacts. The English homes have been their second homes.
Mr. Maude: British homes.
Mr. Osborne: Well, I am an Englishman, and the greater includes the less. Of those 2,000,000 men who have been in this country, something like half a million have been privately entertained in British homes. It would be a tragedy to this country and to the world if all that good will which has been brought about by the people—not by Governments but by the people—is allowed to evaporate. I want the Prime Minister, in whom all of us here have the utmost confidence, to cement further good Anglo-American relations.
When I came to this House I had one shock. I came here with the conviction that, apart from looking after the agricultural interests of my constituency, the most important job I had to do was to try in my small way to cement good Anglo-American relations. I found in this House groups of men who were here to further the interests of the Jews, or the Arabs, the Czechs or the Poles, and even some

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of the Germans, but I have not found one group of any kind who were interested in cementing good Anglo-American relations. [Hon. Members: "Oh, yes."] I say I have not found it. It may be that it is my fault, but I have made careful inquiries, and I have not found one group of men who are primarily interested in what I think is the most important thing in this country—the cementing of good Anglo-American relations. It would be an awful tragedy if the Anglo-Saxon world built up a bloc against Russia, and no one with any sense in this country or in America wishes to do it. But I want to do first things first, and to do the easiest things first, difficult though it may be. I can understand an American, whose languare I can speak, better than a Russian whose language I cannot speak.
As I was coming to the House sometime ago on the L.M.S. railway from Leicester, we passed a slow-moving train, and on the guard's van was written in chalk by some decent, hardworking, earnest Englishman "Good old Uncle Joe Stalin." I have no complaint to make about that, because I think that was an honest tribute to people who fought hard, who suffered hard and who have helped in the common cause. What I complain of is that those who have educated the ordinary men of this country have shown them only half the picture. There ought to have been beside that chalked inscription, "Good old Uncle Franklin Roosevelt," because during the war our hope came from the West primarily, rather than from the East. We ought to teach our people that every fourth mouthful of food that we had during the war, came to us through the generosity of Franklin Roosevelt and his people. I do not say that we should blot out "Good old Uncle Joe Stalin," and I do not set the other one against it; they both should be there. I beg the Leader of the House, who I understand was the general and organiser of the Socialist Party's victory in the recent polls, to use his organising power and "sell" America to the English people, as he has "sold" Russia to them.
Finally, I would say this—and I hope I am not going too far, because I feel very deeply about this. In the past there have been five main contacts between this country and America. First there has been the church—the exchange of pulpits;
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secondly, the exchange of teachers; thirdly, the interest in our historic places. Those three things I do not wish to abolish—I hope they will continue—but two more modern ones are necessary and vital, and they are the job of those on the other side of the House. We want a closer, better and more regular understanding between trades unions of this country and of America. I think that is vital. Secondly, I want to see a closer contact between the business interests of this country and the business interests of America—not merely between the great combines like Lever Brothers and I.C.I., but the small ordinary business men so that we may do away with the suspicion which is so often in the minds of Englishmen, that some how the Yanks will be too clever for us—and, remarkable though it may be, it is also in the mind of the average American that he will be "out-smarted" by us. The only way to get over fear and suspicion is to meet one another and talk with one another. The more we see of them the better.
Much is talked about peace. I believe there can be no peace unless we and the Americans stand together. Peace can come only through strength. It cannot come through pious aspirations or noble speeches. The only lengthy peace that was known in Europe was the Roman peace, when Rome had the power to enforce it. In future, peace will depend upon industrial potentials, and the greatest industrial potential in the world is in the English speaking nations. As a father of four small children, I speak for the younger parents; I would give anything to save my children from a future war I feel that the first step towards giving them that great boon is for us and the Americans, to put all our cards on the table, so to speak, to help one another and mutually understand one another.
In "The Times" this morning there was a remarkable letter from which I may be permitted to quote, because it is typical of the hundreds of letters that I have at home from parents and wives of the men we helped to look after. The letter is written by an American sergeant—not one of the "upper crust" people. He says:
"On the eve of my departure from England I trust that you will allow me to express my deep gratitude for the innumerable acts of courtesy and kindness with which I have been met on every hand during my stay in England. I have travelled from Durham in

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the north to Rye in the south, and I have everywhere been treated with heart-warming friendliness.
"I return to the United States with a deep admiration and affection for the English people, with my memory richly stored with pictures of the English countryside and of the cathedrals and churches which are the glory of this island, with my heart warm with the thought of the many friends, both among civilians and in the forces, with whom I have spent so many happy days"—
and this is the important thing—
"with a profound pride in the glories of our common heritage, and with the heart-felt prayer that our two peoples may be for ever united in the closest friendship."
I wish the Prime Minister and his team the greatest success in America. I hope they will be abundantly blessed in all that they do. I feel if we are ever to get peace we have first to turn the minds of our people—the ordinary people; and I belong to them, although I sit on this side of the House, and I make a greater claim to that than most Members on the other side of the House—occasionally from Moscow to Washington, and to Winnipeg, Cape Town and Sydney, for it is in the solidarity of the English speaking peoples that our hope lies.
6.55 p.m.
Flying-Officer Lever: Having succeeded in catching your eye, Mr. Speaker, I feel that I stand especially in need of the indulgence which a merciful tradition accords to maiden speakers, particularly as the atom bomb seems to have dominated this discussion. If I make a speech which is controversial I shall be rebuked for a breach of tradition; if, on the other hand, I confine myself to pious platitudes, there may be some who will accuse me of trespassing on the preserves of the Front Bench. Be that as it may, I must persevere and I trust that the House will forgive me if, unintentionally, I sin against either its custom or its rule.
I feel a very high honour has been conferred upon me in the privilege of addressing the House today in this important Debate. As I read President Truman's now momentous declaration, I could not help feeling that it is not the generalisations that he expresses which are of importance, but the intentions which one can deduce from them. There are two intentions which stand out in my mind as the only certainties from his pronouncement. One is that the United
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States of America intends to maintain enormous armed forces of all kinds, and the second is that she intends to continue manufacturing the atom bomb as her own secret of manufacture, as part of those national forces. With great respect to the right hon. Gentleman who leads the Opposition, and naive as I am in comparison with his great experience in these matters, I must confess that I treat with great reserve generalised declarations and their effect, and I am more concerned with what I consider to be the immediate practical steps which Governments are taking.
I regret that I treat also with some scepticism the statement by the Leader of the Opposition that a declaration such as this would have avoided this war, that war or any other war. In my respectful submission, declarations will not avoid wars. What is needed is action deliberately planned to secure peace. I know that it is now said that all these national armaments are wanted in the cause of peace. The Foreign Secretary referred to our intention to police the world. Unfortunately, there are a number of competitors for this job, and it is now quite clear that the three Powers have each staked their claim to be the world policeman—not, apparently, in unison or by arrangement with some united organisation, but as an individual decision on the part of their Governments. They claim the right to keep on the backs of the peoples of the world this staggering cost of armament for many years to come, because nobody seems to envisage an early step being taken towards disarmament. They seem to envisage that the peoples of the world are going to be conscripted because they will not come voluntarily into the massed armies which everybody, with apparent equanimity, contemplates as a feature of the postwar world. If the music for the overture is to be the tramp of millions of armed soldiers and the clang of arsenals and factories turning out the munitions of war, amongst them the atom bomb, I think we must be very naïve if we expect the curtain to go up on a play called "Peace and Reconstruction."
In my submission it is the duty of the British Government to exercise the moral leadership it claims by taking early steps which are in accord with the demands of the common people of all lands to reduce the burden of armaments and to

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reduce the burden of conscription and war service now that the war has been won. I want to make it clear that we in England accepted our duty to serve in this war without question in the national interest, but we want that service to come to an end and to come to an end very soon, just so soon as the national safety will permit. We do not like conscription, we ordinary Englishmen, in peace time particularly, and we are under no illusions that when we gave up our liberties and accepted it for the time being it was not palatable. We do not consider even the voluntary acceptance of chains as being the equivalent of liberty, and we are anxious to see that the people of this land are not fettered by the logical consequence of acceptance of a policy of great arms and great armies in the post-war years.
An attractive theory is commonly held which accounts for the fact that nobody now cares to take the commonsense view that the first step towards peace is to try to get some international agreement for reducing arms and armies, and that attractive theory is that this war was brought about because this country was not prepared for war. I can understand hon. Members on the benches opposite holding that view, but for the life of me I cannot understand why it has any attractions for the Members on this side. Hon. Members opposite, for the most part, need it as an excuse for the policy which led to the war, which was, in fact, a policy precisely the same as that they are advocating today—I do not say they do it with any evil intent—the policy of nationalism, the policy of not honestly trusting or believing in an international organisation but all the time preferring this alliance or that alliance according as the needs of power politics prompt them from time to time. It may be said that hon. Members opposite have been chastened and that they now believe in international organisation. I should like to believe it. I am not anxious to jeer at them, because repentant sinners, we are told, are very welcome. In the eyes of the angels, I believe they are equal to ten righteous men, though I am afraid the proportions of those pious mathematics are not likely to prevail in the Division Lobby.
For my own party, as we are a Government, I think it is our duty to make
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it plain to the nation and to the peoples of the world that we do not envisage our security, or world security, as being any longer obtainable by those outworn methods of purely selfish nationalism. The atom bomb in particular has made them obsolete. I know there are some people in this country, and they used to exist before the war, who really believe that military service is desirable for our people, that they have always longed to put on us the same sort of fetters as have been accepted as part of the normal routine of Continental life. The same gentlemen used to go to Nazi Germany before the war and paint glowing pictures of the fine, upstanding Nazi conscripts. We now know what those fine, upstanding young conscripts had to make in the way of a contribution to the cultural and physical welfare of Europe—all the ravaging and suffering they inflicted, finally bringing down in misery and ruin their own country. So we are not anxious to have any predisposition in favour of imitating those who advocate military service for its own sake. If those people are so interested in producing healthy young people I suggest they should express that willingness by voting one-tenth of the sum required for maintaining them in armed camps for providing youth clubs and means of healthy exercise for these youngsters without any relation to war at all. I say that not in any sense as a pacifist.
This brings me to the second point, the atom bomb. The attitude of the people of the world to the atom bomb is, I regret to say, something of a vote of "No confidence" in world leadership. It is plain that he is not welcoming this giant stride forward in the mastery over Nature that man has achieved. The average man in the street does not believe that he is going to get motor cars that will drive him round the world for 6d., or ovens that will cook sponge cakes for next to nothing in a few seconds. He knows what he will get from the atom bomb, if our present rulers go on. He does not expect benefits, he expects destruction—unless by some magical process the statesmen of the world buck up their ideas. It is plain that none of the pronouncements they have made so far have given the common man any confidence in the policies being pursued.
I regret to have to say that the reaction of the average commonsense individual

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to the atom bomb is that he feels that his statesmen are very little men who are facing a problem far too big for them. To adapt a well-known saying, the mice have been in labour on this subject and they have given birth to a mountain of platitudes, but very little in the way of a practical policy. What is required is not so much the internationalisation of knowledge on this subject as a genuine, honest, international attempt to prevent the making of this bomb at all. Nobody seems to have suggested that, and I hate to appear in the light of the small boy who pointed out the nudity of people in the court, but I am bound to say that, speaking as an ordinary man who does not relish the idea of being blown to pieces or disintegrated with his family in a few years' time, I should welcome a statement from the Foreign Secretary that the Government are anxious not to make this bomb at all, but anxious to see whether means cannot be found whereby the peaceful purposes of nuclear research are not prejudiced and the horrible possibilities of atomic bomb management are disavowed at the earliest opportunity. I do not believe that a "police force," such as countries are so fond of calling their enormous array of armed might, requires the atomic bomb. In the declarations by Governments about how they intend to use their enormous forces we are told they are intended for peaceful purposes, but I do not feel very reassured, because the only use our statesmen have made so far of the United Nations Organisation has been as an excuse for having enormous armaments for an indefinite period of time.
The second point one ought to have hi mind when one sees how many countries are maintaining armies and their capacity for the production of weapons is that we are forming an international peace organisation and not a suicide club, and it seems to me that this point is entirely neglected when the Foreign Secretary gets up and, being himself the arch-type of light English humour, tolerance and good sense, tries to persuade us that the mighty armies which we and our Allies—or shall I say ex-Allies, because there is a possibility of that happening in a few years or sooner—are only harmless "bobbies" on the beat. I do not know whether the policeman's lot will be a
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happy one if this idea of every nation deciding to police the world is adopted, but the lot of the people of the world will not be enviable in the not distant future.
The three Powers, America, England and the U.S.S.R., have a duty, in my submission, consistent with their responsibilities. It ought not to be forgotten that those who are the only wielders of decisive economic power and decisive military power at a given period are the people on whom responsibility rests for forming the world, and they cannot escape that responsibility by saying, "We must have Cuba, Paraguay, and Timbuctoo brought into the Conference."
There are three Powers who have the duty among them of laying the foundations for world peace. The first step in performing that duty is to release the world from the incubus of these fantastic armaments which are bleeding the world of its productive capacity at the present time. People generally do not like being chivvied or badgered about by Colonel Blimp or people of the sergeant-major mentality in their formative years when they ought to be producing something useful. It is as well, incidentally, to bear in mind that Colonel Blimp is probably at present an acting-brigadier and is not anxious to lose his establishment by going back to the old conditions and his old cartoon status.
It seems to me that these are the problems to which the Foreign Secretary and the Government ought to address their minds. I urge upon the Prime Minister that when he goes to the United States he will bear in mind that the people of this world, and particularly of this country, after six years of war are crying out for peace and reduction of armaments, and that in their attempt to secure permanent peace the Prime Minister, the President of the United States and Monsieur Stalin should really set about the practical job of achieving unity on this matter and of providing relief for the world, as that may very well prove to be the key which will unlock the door to a solution of the problems which stand in the way of unity. They may provide the way to secure peace not only for the United Nations and not only for ourselves, but so that all nations of the world, small and large, will be able to live in peace.
7.12 p.m.
Lord John Hope: If I should appear less eager than the hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken to "knock somebody's block off," I hope it will not be thought by the House that I do not sometimes enjoy indulging in that activity. The reason, I would assure the hon. and gallant Member, is that as I am about to make a maiden speech I feel convinced that the traditions of this House are sound and that maiden speakers should endeavour to contribute something to the Debate without being unnecessarily controversial. The process of maiden speeches becomes increasingly familiar to those who listen to them, but the intensity of the ordeal to those who have to make them is constant. It is therefore not entirely owing to the demands of tradition that I ask the House to grant me its indulgence during these next few minutes. I can say to the House, for its own assurance and for my own comfort, that these few minutes will be mercifully short.
I would like to say a little about the Americans, from the point of view of one who has had the privilege of sharing the hardships of battle with those great people from the operational and from the administrative point of view. I believe that it has been said before, and that it is worth repeating, that in no environment do men get to know one another so well and so surely as in the environment of war. We British got on so well with the Americans in war that there can surely be no doubt that we can do the same thing in peace. That applies just as strongly to the case of Russia. I cannot say much about Russia because I have not had the privilege or the honour of fighting alongside our Russian Allies. I wish I had. If I say little about Russia I ask the House to believe that what I am about to say in regard to America has to be applied just as much to Russia. The problem is one and indivisible. There must not be one problem between us and America and another problem between us and Russia; but simply because I know a little more about the former I shall dwell on it for a minute or two.
I believe that never in our history have the relations between the United States of America and this country been as good as they are now. I believe that that is mainly for the reason that during the
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last six years of conflict more Americans have got to know well more British people than has ever been the case hitherto. Our two peoples have been flung together by the necessities of war. I would make the plea that those who lead our two countries should not forget the supreme value of that lesson. The immediate danger as I see it is that in the years to come far too few of each nation—of course I include Russia too—will see each other. If the peoples can work out a scheme whereby a flow of travel from one nation to another can be kept up in ever-growing volume, that scheme will make a very great contribution to world peace. It is only because people are strange to one another that they suffer from mistrust of one another. My right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) said some time ago that the movement of men and women within the Empire had to be made easier and that a two-way traffic should grow. I would like to say that, admirable as that sentiment is, it might well be extended to include the sentiment that the movement of men and women throughout the world should be made easier. There should be a three-way traffic at least.
There are two further points which I wish to make. The first is that although understanding between ourselves and the Americans is so good at present, no step should be left untried to improve it. We must not sit back and rest on our laurels. I am optimistic as to the future in that regard, for reasons which I have already given. I feel it may not be stretching the point too far to suggest that one day, by the development of television, we might even be able to have a Debate with Congress. I should like to think that we could do the same with the Kremlin, but the language difficulty might make that a somewhat abortive project.
There is one great danger of which I would like to remind the House in connection with this increasing of understanding between the Allies. That is that there are sure to be continuing and growing attempts by those who wish no good to Allied unity to disrupt that unity. When the hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt) said the other day that we should be very careful when we criticise Russia because that is exactly what the reactionary elements in Germany would desire, I think he was

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right. I do not suppose that there is very much of what the hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith says that I would agree with, but in that I am certain he was right. We cannot be too careful. Exactly the same applies to our relations with America. It is well known that just before the war the actively pro-German elements in America were carrying on a thoroughly successful and subtle propaganda, and there are those who are of the opinion that it was just nipped in the bud in time. We must watch that sort of thing very carefully, because there is no reason whatever to suppose that because Germany has been beaten her reactionaries have altogether thrown up the sponge.
The final point I wish to make is very short; it is that unless the eleventh point of President Truman's Twelve Points becomes a reality, none of the remaining eleven is of much use. The eleventh point is the one which postulates freedom of expression and religion. I believe that we have freedom of expression in this country, and I believe that there is freedom of expression in America. I am not sure—and in saying this I beg the House to believe that I have no desire whatever to cause bad relations anywhere—Iam not so sure that that freedom of expression exists in Russia to the extent to which it exists here and in America. Until that freedom of expression, which I believe is as good a common denominator of democracy as can be found, exists evenly throughout the world, there will probably be trouble, and certainly there will be suspicion.
That is all I wish to say to the House. I wanted, as best I might, to pay a tribute to those great people, the Americans. At the moment, as I said at the beginning, our relations with them could not be better. I sincerely hope that it is not true that these relations have been in any way worsened from the other side because of a major political event in this country. I see no reason whatever why that should be so. One is entitled to one's view and to express it, and therefore I may say that what may appear to some to be a deviation from the paths of political common-sense need not necessarily be permanent. So, I would say to our American friends that we, as a people, whatever our political views, are a people with a warm heart, and just because occasionally the
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warmth of the heart may develop into a slight heat of the head let them not despair. Let them know also that the Prime Minister goes to America with the sincere good wishes of us all, wherever we stand in this House.
7.25 p.m.
Flight-Lieutenant Parkin: I, too, have to ask for the indulgence of the House on addressing it for the first time. That is a purely personal need, and the need would be as acute if I were addressing the House on some unimportant point as it is in connection with such an important matter as this. But it is not unfitting that, in a Debate as important as this, should be heard some of us who have not been here before, particularly some of us who have come to this House from constituencies which have recently changed their minds. There are many of us on this side of the House—I am one—who had behind them no strong sectional block vote, but who were sent here, and could only have been sent here, by the steady support of all sections of the community. It is most important that the common people of our Allies should realise what is happening in this country. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) said that perhaps the present composition of this House might be a transient phenomenon, and the hon. Member who has just preceded me also tended, I thought, to be offering a sort of apology in advance to the United States of America for this country having elected this Parliament, which is responsible for the present Government. But there is nothing transient in the deep yearning of millions of people in this country and throughout Europe for two things—that man should learn to be the master of material things, and that he should work out an international order. There is nothing transient in the determination of the people to attain both those aims.
There is nothing new in those aims; they were the hopes of millions at the end of the last war, but those hopes were disappointed. Perhaps those hopes were fixed on a more spectacular solution in both cases and that solution failed, but this time there is a quiet confidence that those aims can, in a practical way, be attained. Fresh heart was given to the people during the darkest hours of the war as it became evident that something

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was happening which some of us had almost regarded as beyond the bounds of possibility for many years to come—that the British Commonwealth, the United States of America, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and the Republic of China would, joined and strengthened by liberated France, at the end of the war be united in leading the world towards a peaceful solution of its problems. That was the hope which inspired and encouraged many people, in all countries, to survive the war. Something seems to have happened to shake that hope, and we hear that there are disagreement and uncertainty, and that the hope is dashed. But what has happened? Nothing that one can pin down as a practical breakdown, nothing irrevocable or irreparable has happened; there have been some incidents, trivialities which have been exaggerated; there have been some statements which may have been quoted out of their context; but nothing yet has happened to make the world lose heart.
Now is the chance for moral leadership to restore that confidence and hope. There is nothing new in those moral aspirations. They were expressed, if I may be allowed to recall it to the House, very long ago by another weary warrior, King David, who, when he asked to be given a drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem, would not drink it when it was brought to him and said:
"Is not this the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives?"
and poured it out as a libation unto the Lord. That is the spirit in which ordinary people throughout the world hoped that the problems of peace would be tackled at the end of the war. They hoped that such benefits and advantages as might fall to us to offset the fearful losses and destruction of war might be poured out as a libation for the benefit of the whole of humanity. Now is the chance for that to be done. We have heard so often of the need for free access to raw materials and to markets; let us now add to that free access to scientific knowledge. Let the republic of knowledge open its doors to the whole world, and encourage people to forget these trivial differences.
The ordinary people feel that this is humanity's last chance to order its life on moral principles. We used to be told that we could not solve practical problems
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by moral uplift. We have made some progress there, too, because politicians, psychologists, industrial efficiency experts and physiologists tell us that we can solve practical problems by moral uplift. One of the biggest practical problems before the world at the present time is to get people back to useful work, the sort of work that they want to do and the whole world needs. People want to do something to restore the damage of war and restore the abundance which is possible. If we get a moral lead now, that moral lead will do more to restore the production of goods and send people back to work than all the industrial efficiency experts in the world. That is the chance that is open to this country now. If the Prime Minister seizes this opportunity to get a moral lead given to the world, he will get millions of young people, with new energy and enthusiasm, down to the ordinary tasks of life that will produce that abundance which can remove the causes of quarrelling, and send them enthusiastically forward, as we used to sing,
"With flame of freedom on their lips,
And light of knowledge in their eyes."
7.33 p.m.
Mr. Vernon Bartlett: It used to be considered a great privilege to congratulate one hon. Member on his maiden speech, but nowadays it has become quite a common privilege to congratulate more than one. I have the unusual privilege of congratulating four hon. Members, and I can do so with sincerity because there is no doubt that the House has been held by the speeches of the four hon. Members. My congratulations go particularly to the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Osborne) because he was interrupted in his maiden speech and did not seem to mind, and I find that, although I have got well beyond my maiden speech, I am still considerably embarrassed if I am interrupted. The hon. Member also had the courage to maintain that he was an Englishman. The Noble Lord the Member for North Midlothian and Peebles (Lord John Hope) also had the very full support of the House because he, like the other hon. Member, got away from the political side of things and down to the feelings of the ordinary people of the United States and this country. I think that is extremely important. The hon. and gallant Member for the Exchange Division of Manchester (Flying-Officer Lever) spoke with very great

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confidence, and we shall be glad to hear him again. I feel that some hon. Members of the Conservative Party will be glad that when the hon. Member speaks again, having got pas this maiden speech, they will be able to say what they think about his remarks. I am particularly glad to be able to congratulate the hon. and gallant Member for Stroud (Flight-Lieutenant Parkin) because he was partly responsible for putting me into the House seven years ago, and at the last Election, by an unfortunate accident, I sent a message to one of his opponents hoping that the hon. and gallant Member would not be elected.
This Debate is primarily a debate in which to wish the Prime Minister Godspeed on his journey. He does not go as the representative of one political party. We should make it clear to the people across the Atlantic that the Prime Minister goes with the good wishes of all people in this country, whatever their political views may be. The future of all of us will be affected by his success or failure. He goes as the representative of a great people that is proud of its part in the war and that will prefer to accept poverty with dignity to riches which might involve loss of independence. A few days ago Mr. Bernard Baruch, the American economist, was warning his people against the danger of helping Britain if Britain was going to nationalise her industries. It would be an offence to all of us, whatever may be our party, to have financial help based upon conditions as to what we should do inside our own country. If American private enterprise is so frightened of what our industries will do on a nationalised basis that it must refuse help, then we must get on as 'best we can alone. What this House would want to make clear is that the Prime Minister goes to America not as a beggar, but as a colleague anxious to discuss with President Truman the method of putting into effect point 10 of his programme, in which he said:
"We believe that full economic collaboration between all nations, great and small, is essential to the improvement of living conditions all over the world and to the establishment of freedom from fear and want."
We must hope that the American people are ready to take the President at his word. The second point is that apparently the Prime Minister goes to America as the representative of a Government with
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the same knowledge of the atomic bomb as the President of the United States. I listened with great attention and admiration to what the Foreign Secretary said. But it seemed to me that he was giving us a warning that the Government are not going to urge upon the President of the United States that we should share the secret of the atomic bomb with other countries. I think there is a good deal to be said for that. It is true that during the war we passed on all sorts of secrets to the Soviet Union and that there was no reciprocity; but I hope very much that the Prime Minister will not go with a closed mind about this subject. I hope very much that he will not do what the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) urged upon him. The President of the United States said in his now famous speech:
"The people in the United States, in Russia, in Britain, in France and in China, in collaboration with all other peace-loving people, must take the course of current history into their own hands and mould it in a new direction, the direction of continued co-operation."
The President of the United States mentioned the five permanent members of the Security Council, but it is the worst hypocrisy for any of us to pretend that that Security Council can possibly come into existence and do useful work if two of its members are in possession of so important a weapon which the others know nothing about. What frightened me was the way in which the right hon. Member for Woodford described how we were at least four years in advance of other countries in this business of atomic research and described how in four years' time, when other countries have thought it out, we should be four years ahead again. This picture of mankind involved in this horrible, mad race towards mass murder is surely utterly out of place after we have just come through such a horrible war and at a time when millions of people in Europe are still threatened with starvation and misery as a result of it. I was one of the first Members in the House to urge that the secret of the atomic bomb should be shared, with safeguards, with other members of the Security Council, and, despite what my right hon. Friend said about the lack of reciprocity, I nevertheless hope that the Prime Minister will be able to make that effort. I think—I do not like to differ from the right hon.

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Gentleman the Foreign Secretary—that if we made that offer conditional upon every possible right of search in any factories in any of the United Nations it would be a fairly useful deterrent and, at the same time, supposing any one of the United Nations was so foolish as to turn down the acceptance of this international right of search with regard to the atomic bomb, the world would know much better than it does now where the responsibility would lie for such a policy.
The final point I want to make is that one or two hon. Members of this House have drawn attention to the inconsistencies of the President's speech. It is very easy to do so. The President said:
"We do not seek for ourselves one inch of territory in any part of the world. Outside the right to establish necessary bases for our own protection we look for nothing which belongs to any other Power."
That is obviously an argument which can be used just as well by the Soviet Union, which has very few outlets and which suffered terribly in the war because of lack of ports, through which it might get raw material. There are members of this House who have been on Arctic convoys and who know what serious losses we suffered in order to get material through to the Soviet Union. Nevertheless, we should look at the speech as a whole rather less in the search for inconsistencies of that kind. We have been accused of hypocrisy in the past, and now that the power has passed to the United States, they will be accused of hypocrisy in the future. But let us remember, at a time when the people of the United States are passing through, almost a hysteria of disillusion after the war, that it is very courageous and useful that the President of the United States should have come out so definitely in favour of international co-operation.
If one reads those points through again, one realises that at a time when one would expect the growth of the demand for isolation, the President comes out pledging the United States to the extent of 100 per cent. co-operation in the future. It is a very welcome fact indeed and reminds us, however much some of us are depressed because the world looks a pretty lousy place at the present time, that the situation is very much better than it was after the last war. Those of us who were at the Peace Conference remember how the Italians walked out in the middle, and how Presi-
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dent Wilson had a cruiser ready to take him back to the United States. We should all be encouraged by the fact that at such a time as this the President of the United States should have made such a speech; it leads us to hope that the Prime Minister of this country, who, for all the years I remember him, has been perfectly consistent in support of international collective security, may meet the success in the United States for which every Member of this House hopes and prays.
8.45 p.m.
Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: While expressing my real gratitude to your immediate predecessor in the Chair and to you, Mr. Speaker, for combining to call me to my feet, I feel that I must express a certain amount of regret that I have been called after my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Bartlett). Every Member of this House who has been for any length of time in the House at all has had the fun and pleasure of congratulating up to a round half dozen of maiden speakers. I have been deprived of that pleasure and I feel rather sore about it, and so I am looking round, for I have to congratulate someone. My attention has rightly fallen upon the Foreign Secretary. I have rarely heard a more robust and resolute exposition of British foreign policy. I would also like to suggest that, as our front bench here is rather empty at the moment, if at any time he would like to find a resting place from some of his enthusiastic—but not over-enthusiastic, I noticed this afternoon—supporters, I am sure the Conservative Party would be only too pleased to welcome so big, in every sense of the word, an Englishman—and coming from a non-Englishman the House will appreciate that that is a compliment.
In listening to the Debate, as I have listened to it, I feel that there is one fear, although not yet expressed, running through the mind of every speaker, and that is the fear that our friends in the United States will relapse back into that most seductive policy of isolation. It is no good wishfully thinking to the contrary. I have talked to hundreds of American soldiers and officers, and it was obvious that the chief object of every one of them was to get back home. There is another very important factor that sways heavily in American politics, and that is the mothers of America. The women of

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America, especially the mothers, have a very potent influence and they want to get their men back home and prevent them ever leaving home again. They do not like the idea of having them, once again, subject to the insidious wiles of the English flapper, or the German mädchen or the French cocotte—I forget what the exact term is. It is only by a policy of isolation that they can secure what they believe is the right policy for America, and that is the policy of keeping American men and boys in their own country.
I say to myself, and no doubt every hon. Member asks himself the same question, How can we negative this attitude and make sure that that friendship we have heard so much about as having been developed during the war will remain and grow and become a powerful factor in the peace and security of the world? One of the main ways to achieve that object—and a very good one—is the suggestion of making the headquarters of the United Nations Organisation in the United States. I believe that to have it located there would mean that we would maintain the interest of Americans in world security and also give them a sort of national responsibility for that security.
I now come very briefly to the Twelve Points and I want to be quite candid, because we cannot talk to Americans in any other way except with candour. They do not understand anything else. They like straight talk and I hope that all my American friends—and. I am very happy to have a great number—will absolve me from any impertinence in this criticism, which is the first I have heard today, of the Twelve Points. When I read them I felt that I had rarely read a more staggering declaration of power politics. I must characterise it as that; otherwise, it has a naïvete that I cannot claim for a man in the position of world leadership like President Truman.
I hope that our present Prime Minister, when he goes to America, with the good will of everyone in the House and everyone in the country, will try to represent the facts and realities of what is happening over here in Europe, and what is in the mind of the average British subject, so that President Truman might see fit to revise some of the declarations incor-
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porated in his Twelve Points. If I might take one or two of them which were referred to by the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Bartlett), I would refer to that which states "We seek no territorial advantage." How can that be reconciled with the claim for a string of Atlantic and Pacific bases which previously were, and still are, the property of other nations? Then we come to the
"restoration of sovereign rights to all nations who have been deprived of them."
Does that apply to Latvia, Lithuania, Esthonia and some of the Balkan countries? [An Hon. Member: "Yes, it does."] If the hon. Member has any point to make, let him make it, or else wait until the end of my speech and see how I try to present a balanced picture.
Then there is the refusal to approve
"any territorial changes without the freely-expressed wishes of the people concerned."
There are very few places in Europe to which that applies today, and, reading carefully through these Twelve Points, I find it extremely difficult to discover a country that President Truman will be able to recognise at all. I want to make it clear, having made these brief criticisms in a spirit of the greatest possible friendship, but, at the same time, of candour, that I believe that the future of humanity and civilisation depends upon the United States and the British Empire being and remaining in the closest, most friendly and most intimate collaboration, and, therefore, I am very anxious that the Prime Minister will exercise all his persuasive powers and carry with him, in his heart and mind, the knowledge that he has to the American President and impress upon him that this friendship must be a flower which will be cultivated so that it may blossom to the greatest possible extent.
There is another point which I must make. It concerns the tremendously important statement about preserving peace by force. I have read that statement again and again. Is it by a threat of the atomic bomb that peace is going to be preserved? Is that at the back of the President's mind? If that is so, then, indeed, I give up all hope of seeing peace in this world. We cannot preserve peace by threats; we can only preserve it by good will, co-operation and understanding, and, on occasion, by compromise. That is the direction in which

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we have done so much, in the history of our country, in maintaining peace.
I would like now to deal with Soviet Russia in one or two sentences, because, in my preceding remarks, it might appear that I was unduly or unfairly criticising the United States, and I want to paint the picture, as I see it now, and which I hope will be the picture the Prime Minister will put before the President, fairly and completely. I remember a conversation I had with my friend Mr. Maisky, the Russian Ambassador here, just after Hitler had declared war on Russia. On that occasion I said: ''The great tragedy is that it has taken another world war to wipe away the clouds of suspicion, doubt and mistrust which have overshadowed our relationships during the 20 years," and I went on to say that it was, in a way, partly Russia's own fault, whatever good will we might have had, because of the curtain which Russia put up and which we could not pierce. M. Maisky said, with a twinkle in his eye, "Was it not rather a fortunate thing that that curtain was there, because the Germans were not able to pierce it either? Otherwise, they would have attacked you instead of us." There is a lot of truth in that. We have got to recognise that, though we may not understand the reasons and though we may close our eyes to its existence, this suspicion still exists. How can this suspicion be abolished? I know the answer, but I do not know whether we can carry it out. It is by constant and most intimate collaboration and exchange of viewpoints on the very highest level; that is, between President Stalin, our own Prime Minister and President Truman. What is even more important is constant intercourse on lower levels, and here I would like to say how glad I am that the Russian football team is over here. I wish the preparations for their accommodation had been a little more adequate, but, nevertheless, it is all to the good.
I know the Russians pretty well, and I have found them to be, generally speaking, kindly, generous, sympathetic and friendly people. I think, indeed, that we are both people with the same virtues, and, therefore, one feels so horrified and distressed that 20 years of ignorance, sometimes of deliberate misunderstanding, have left us both unable to appreciate these very same qualities that exist in our two peoples. I say they must be over-
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come, and that is one reason why I am particularly sorry that the Ministry of Information is likely to be abolished. I deplore it because I believe that time is on the wing just now. We may have a 20 years' alliance with Russia, but alliances do not make friendships and we have got to cement that alliance into real understanding friendship in which we both appreciate each other.
The Ministry of Information was able to do a great job of work in that direction, and that work, indeed, needs doing still. I have one complaint to make at present. Throughout every city, town and village in this country, we have active branches of the Anglo-Russian Friendship Society. I want to make that a two-way traffic. I want to know what Russia is doing in Russia to make known our ways of life and thought and the fact of British good will. What is the Government doing to persuade Russia to undertake that task? We have "Our Ally," which is totally inadequate. It is quite a good journal and reaches a certain number of people, but it has no effect whatever on the general good will which should exist between our two great nations.
I ask that the Prime Minister, when he sees the President, will ask him to reconsider some of the indications of American policy which he has given in these 12 points, and to persuade him that those 12 points, even backed by the atomic bomb, will not bring that permanent security that the world is waiting for today. I wish the Prime Minister Godspeed. He has got responsibility and opportunity now, and the chance of a lifetime, and I pray God that he will use it rightly and successfully.
8.0 p.m.
Dr. Jeger: Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I am very grateful to you, after what seems like a 40 years' wait on these benches, for allowing me to enter the promised land of a maiden speech. Had I been as diffident in my constituency as I feel now I do not suppose I should have been here to make this speech.
I could not help admiring the way in which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) managed to progress from the disquiet with which he opened his remarks, to the complete satisfaction with President Truman's policy and speech which he

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expressed at the end of his discourse. A few weeks ago the right hon. Gentleman was talking here about demobilisation, and I remember that he then said that the coming of the atomic bomb ought to have speeded up demobilisation almost a hundredfold. Yet today he said that he agreed with the remarks of President Truman to the effect that a very large navy and a very large army are still necessary in this troubled world. I want to deal with President Truman's Twelve Points. I know many hon. Members who have preceded me have already spoken about them, but at the risk of repetition may I say that I consider that the speech of President Truman showed a marked degree of abstraction; like most good statesmanlike utterances, it was capable of various interpretations and misinterpretations. At best, I consider it was an example of a genuine high-minded idealism combined with complete inability to give that idealism a single concrete application, and, at worst, I cannot do better than quote the analysis of a Russian commentator to the effect that:
"Of the Twelve Points, seven were directed against the Soviet Union, and one was directed against the British Empire."
Let me quote some of the points, one or two of which have been mentioned before. We were told that the United States seeks no territory. How does that square with the statement that there should be various bases which the United States should take over as necessary for her protection? President Truman almost denounced spheres of influence, and yet went on to demand for the Western hemisphere complete solidarity without interference from outside that hemisphere. He talked about the economic co-operation between the United States and the rest of the world, but we have only to recall how quickly the Lend-Lease plan was brought to an end the moment hostilities finished. We can recall, too, how in the United States they have demonstrated their economic strength so well that they have done away with their rationing system while a good deal of Europe is starving. They are going to maintain the largest navy in the world, and General Marshall has seconded President Truman's remarks by saying that they will maintain a very large army too. Now this talk of the largest navy in the world strikes a very
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familiar note with me. I can remember having been brought up on talk about the two-Power naval standard, and I seem to remember that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford was very largely responsible for maintaining that standard in days gone by. You cannot build up any sort of permanent policy on any temporary superiority, because the two-Power naval standard of the British Empire is gone and the other naval and military superiorities are likely to go in the same way.
President Truman wants to retain the secret of the atomic bomb in the United States as a "sacred trust." He wants everyone to trust the United States, but the United States is to trust nobody. This strikes me as being a very naive assumption and, if I dare to say so, a very unctuous assumption. This secret belongs to America for the moment, but how long will it remain her secret? I read a report in a paper the other day which said that Sweden already knew how to manufacture the atomic bomb. We know how the Soviet scientists are speeding up their researches in the Urals; we know how they are maintaining their army and air force at a high level, spending a large proportion of their national wealth on armaments. Russia is suspicious about everything; she blows hot and cold about co-operation, and she is preparing her cordon sanitaire. That was applied to her in the last war largely by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford. We remember how that cordon sanitaire was prepared, and now Russia is preparing her cordon sanitaire in reverse. Then I read a report in a newspaper recently that Poland was financing her atomic bomb research very heavily—these poor Poles who can always be guaranteed to secure the greatest possible trouble for themselves in any situation. Soon anybody will be able to make an atomic bomb in a back kitchen, and then where is the monopoly going to be? I think it is a mistake to imagine that we have several years ahead of us in which to prepare. I do not think we have several years. I think the march of science is a very rapid one. It begins slowly, then it speeds up, and then it overtakes events, almost like a volcanic eruption. Do not let us deceive ourselves, and do not let us go on drifting into another mess, which is what we are doing now. We are in the preliminary

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stages of a new armaments race and, if the disaster comes, there will not be any exemption in the world.
Hon. Members will remember how a few days ago we were discussing a Civil Defence Bill. We are not completely destroying our civil defences; we are maintaining our civil defences and considering new forms of civil defence against bomb attacks. Against whom are we preparing them? From whom is this danger feared? It seems to me that, if there is to be a great war between East and West, through a combination of atomic bomb and rocket we shall be largely in the position that Palestine has been in throughout history. Palestine has been trampled on from West to East, and from East to West by great armies, always being the cock-pit. It is quite likely that we may be the cock-pit in a future struggle between a great power in the East and a great power in the West, and we are particularly vulnerable, whether we take part in that struggle or not.
I can see only two plans for us to follow. One is to try to persuade The United States to disclose her secrets for manufacturing the atomic bomb. The other plan—which gives the only justification for holding the bomb secret back—is to use it as a bargaining counter to enforce the establishment of the nucleus of a world government to which it will be disclosed. The forthcoming visit of the Prime Minister to the United States shows a great deal of psychological in sight. It is a much more vital event than the visits of previous Prime Ministers to foreign parts for the purpose of coming to some sort of settlement. I hope that the Prime Minister will offer to throw into the common pool, when he meets President Truman, a modification of national sovereignty for this one purpose only, as a beginning—a modification which will mean participation in a single world state which shall alone possess in the future the means of coercion.
I would like to see Russia invited to help to draw up the very first draft of this new world Government. That would be a means of destroying her suspicions. This kind of situation has arisen before. I recall the time when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford made his offer to France. That was one of the bright spots in a long series of
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very bright spots. The offer he made to France was one of common citizenship and of common Government, united economically and militarily. If that could be done then, why cannot the same idea be carried a stage further, and thrown open to the whole world? I believe that public opinion is ripe for some action on these lines. If we can settle that problem we shall be able to concentrate on the use of atomic energy for lightening the toil, the poverty, and the burdens of mankind.
8.11 p.m.
Lieutenant Herbert Hughes: I rise in the long succession of those who have craved the indulgence of the House when making their first Parliamentary declaration, and I hope that that indulgence will be extended to me. My justification for rising tonight is that during the late campaign, I did at one time fight side by side with the Americans, and I also had the opportunity of meeting the Red Army on the shores of the Baltic. Without transgressing on the usual limits of a maiden speech, I must say that I, in common with others on this side, do not share the enthusiasm, almost, of the Leader of the Opposition at the prospect of the atomic bomb remaining under the control of one Power or any group of great Powers. I say that with no disrespect to the United States. Even if our own country had complete control of the bomb, I should not in the least be happy about the position.
The problem facing the peoples of the world is too great for any one nation, or group of nations, to tackle alone. We shall sink or swim according to the degree in which we are successful in bringing in all nations to participate in the control of this bomb and its use. Let us imagine what the situation would be if the boot were on the other foot, and that instead of the atomic bomb being in the United States it were housed somewhere in the centre of the Urals. I can imagine the degree of eloquence with which Members opposite would urge that the atomic bomb be put at the disposal of the United Nations. It is no policy to say that because, in the past, Russia has not agreed to the exchange of scientific information she should not have some say in the control of the atomic bomb. If Russia had control of the bomb we would urge, on this side, that she be brought

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into the pool. Are we now to take a different line because we are in a more fortunate position? The policy we are pursuing at the moment seems to be getting the worst of both possible worlds. We are disputing how much lead the United States has, whether it has six months, as Professor Oliphant says, or four years, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) says. But that is not the point. The point is that partial control of the atomic bomb by a group of nations is having a terrible effect on the hopes of bringing the three great Powers together. Every day that we retain a special position in relation to the bomb we are intensifying the psychological complex from which, as it seems to some of us, the Soviet Union is now suffering.
We remember that before the war problems of international organisation and security were vitiated by the fact that the leaders of the great Western Powers cold-shouldered the Soviet Union. Are we going to commit those mistakes a second time? I have no wish to defend for one moment the policy which the Soviet Union is now pursuing in Western Europe, a policy of bastion defence and spheres of influence, a policy somewhat similar to that underlying the recent speech of the President of the United States of America. The President's speech was not merely a restatement of twelve general principles; it was, first, that there should be a Western hemisphere block and, secondly, it contained the big stick that was to be waggled behind those general principles. His call for the biggest navy in the world, strong air power, conscription and bases seemed to suggest that we were near the old cry: "We don't want to fight, but by Jingo if we do …"As I say, I am not defending Russian power policy, and spheres of influence; neither am I defending American power policy and spheres of influence.
We in this country have a chance to play a great part in international affairs, but if we follow the line which has been advocated by many speakers opposite to night we shall throw away that chance. The policy of saying "Let us throw away our independent position, let us ally ourselves more closely with one of these power complexes rather than with another," is absolutely fatal. The strength of this country in international affairs today depends on the fact that we stand be-
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tween two other great Powers, and that we can, if we retain our independence, have a tremendous influence in bringing them together. Once we discriminate, our influence is lost.
The atom bomb could have been an immense power for good. It could have blasted all the nations of the world out of their narrow parochialism and the petty issues which are embroiling foreign affairs today. We must try, before it is too late, to see that that actually happens. The scientists have been criticised for arrogating to themselves the powers of government. It is said that that is not in their sphere. But the scientists, at the moment, are giving a lead to the statesmen, and I hope statesmen in all countries will be big enough to take advantage of that lead. Public opinion, not only here, but in America, has also given a lead. Conferences have been held in America criticising the President's policy, and saying that the atomic bomb is a justification not only for putting all our power behind the United Nations but for going even further than the United Nations. I am sure that if the Prime Minister, when he goes to America, says that we must solve the problem of getting the atomic bomb out of the control of the small group into the hands of the representatives of the world as a whole, he will be speaking for the common sense of the people of this country and America as well.
The Foreign Secretary has rightly stressed the importance to the peace of the world of economic planning and solving our present deadlocks; but until the problem of the atom bomb is solved, it seems to me that we shall not be able to get those Powers, which regard themselves as excluded, to come in on equal terms to face this real problem of world economic planning. The Foreign Secretary said that the whole problem is one of confidence. With that I profoundly agree. Anyone who has read the Soviet Foreign Minister's speech, reported in the Press this morning, cannot fail to realise that this problem of confidence is directly related to the control of the atom bomb. The Soviet Foreign Minister has said, to the accompaniment of cheers which lasted, it is reported, for several minutes:
"We, too, soon, shall have atomic energy."
The whole basis of that speech was this: "We in the Soviet Union are being shut

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out, and our response to that is to go ahead on our own." There are only two choices before the world: either we solve this problem of getting the atomic bomb under international control, or we are going to get ourselves, if we have not already got ourselves, into the wildest and maddest armaments race that this world has ever known. If we do slip into that, where will this country be? When we have lost the six months or four years lead, we in this country cannot hope to compete in a race of that kind with either the United States or the Soviet Union. One hon. Member on the other side said that he hoped we would look to Washington. We have not to look to Washington; we have not to look to Moscow. The only hope for this country is to look to the new United Nations Organisation, and to place under that Organisation the fullest possible technical control of the atom bomb, and get the broadest possible exchange of scientific information.' If we can do that, there is still hope that our sons will not have to go through the horrors that this world has just been through.
8.23 p.m.
Wing-Commander Roland Robinson: I am sure the House would wish me to offer our very warm and sincere congratulations to the hon. Member for South East St. Pancras (Dr. Jeger) and the hon. and gallant Member for Wolverhampton West (Lieutenant Hughes) on the maiden speeches to which we have just listened. We listened to them with very great interest indeed. We hope that they will speak again, and often, and that as time goes by we may reach agreement on foreign policy so that we can speak in common for our country, and that in matters of home policy we, on this side, may find worthy adversaries with whom to cross swords in the future.
The Debate has shown a great measure of common agreement throughout the whole of the House. There was a slight undercurrent from one or two speakers who tended to criticise, in small respects, the speech made by President Truman. I am not with them. This tendency was typified by the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore), and I refer to his speech especially, because his was not a maiden speech. I feel that in trying to find small inconsistencies in the speech of the Presi-
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dent of the United States, they were merely doing what people at the Bar call "special pleading." After all, when one comes to examine, sentence by sentence, the speech of anyone in this House one is bound to find small inconsistencies. What really matters is the spirit behind the speech. I believe that in the speech of the American President the spirit there was right, and we should welcome his determination that the United States is now going to play a part in world affairs worthy of a great and powerful nation. We have this in common with the United States: neither of us seeks any gain for ourselves in this postwar settlement. As far as world leadership is concerned, we ourselves have held it for a long time. We do not seek the whole stage for ourselves, and it is a thing which we are delighted to share with all the responsible nations of the world. I regard this as being very important, for with leadership come responsibilities. We welcome America especially. The President's 12 points, to my mind, show that fundamentally we do think alike. On the first eleven, we would find very little difference with the President at all. Perhaps, here and there, we might like to suggest some slight Amendments; but the one thing that stands out to my mind is the twelfth point, which is by far the most important. He said:
"We are convinced that the preservation of peace between nations requires a United Nations Organisation composed of all the peace-loving nations of the world who are willing jointly to use force if necessary to ensure peace."
I repeat "who are willing jointly to use force if necessary to ensure peace." That was not just an isolated statement, because the President backed that up, a little later, when he reviewed the American military scene, and said they had four military tasks. The second one was, he said, that they must have forces sufficiently large to maintain lasting peace in the world, if necessary by force. His sincerity is proved clearly, I think, by the fact that, at almost the same moment, he went to the American people and said to them that for the postwar years they must have conscription in the United States. I think that that shows that America means business. What a great and wonderful contrast that is to the difficulties we had after the last war, when America would not join with us in

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the League of Nations, and refused to accept the principle that military sanctions were the ultimate means necessary to maintain peace. I believe that the failures of the past can and will be avoided. The United States in the height of its military power, and the fullness of its political maturity, is going to do unbounded good for the world by playing a real part in world affairs. I think that we should make clear to the United States that we are prepared to accept the same commitments as they are prepared to accept, and support a United Nations Organisation which has behind it the ultimate sanction of force; that we will maintain our own forces big enough to keep our pledges, and that we will consider an equal measure of conscription with them so that our forces are kept at a sufficiently high level.
There has been considerable discussion about the atom bomb this afternoon. One thing which has stood out abundantly clear is that the coming of this new and terrible weapon makes it more than ever vital that we should achieve agreement among the nations of the world. It was Mr. Wendel Willkie, that great American statesman, who pointed out that we ultimately would have to be so much together that there would be one world. We can be quite sure, in view of the atom bomb, that we have the choice of one world or none. On the decisions being taken now the fate of the world is going to hang. My own view is that ultimately the atom bomb should come under the control of the Council of the United Nations Organisation. I do not believe we can scatter it far and wide among the various nations of the world, like so much confetti. I do not like weapons of this kind to be in every one's hands. A great English poet said:
"How oft the sight of means to do ill deeds,
Makes ill deeds done."
I would prefer the weapon not to be in the hands of the whole of the nations of the world. When we do give away these secrets, we want to be abundantly clear that we are not putting this weapon into the hands of any one who might be a potential aggressor in any part of the world. I believe that, for the moment, we should hold this secret as trustees of the United Nations Organisation, making it quite clear that when the time became
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ripe this weapon would be put in the sole hands of, what we might call, a world security police force.
We need have no fear of the United States. It is known as a great peace-loving nation. In the matter of the atomic bomb, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) said this afternoon, America has been most generous, the President having made it clear that there were three partners, the United States, Great Britain and Canada. We know it is in the hands of our natural friends and our partners. It has been my privilege for about four years, in the course of my Service duty in this war, to work with our American friends. I know them well, I know their country, and it gave me great pleasure during the war to see the vigour and energy of their work, and to share with them their play, and to receive something of the great warmth of friendship which only Americans can show for this country. In those years we showed how we could work together. It was shown by our Air Forces when I was in Italy, because I was serving on a Combined Staff there, British and American. The only thing that mattered was who was the man doing the job. The Commander-in-Chief would never say, "Are you an American, wearing brown?" or "Are you British, wearing blue?" Every man was one of a combined team. We proved that we could work together.
We want to keep that same spirit right through the years of peace. As the President warned us, it has unfortunately been proved after past wars that the unity among allies, forged by their common peril, tended to break down as the danger passed. We should re-echo that time and time again, and say that we are with the American President in sincerely wishing for continued co-operation, and that we shall all do our best to see that whatever happens after the war there shall be no slow disintegration of our true wartime friendship. Rather it should be developed. I believe it can be developed, as has been shown by things that have been said in this House today, particularly by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford, and in the fine speech of the Foreign Secretary. On both sides of the House we have displayed good will and shown that we intend to strive hard to try to develop this Anglo-American

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friendship. It is not so easy at all times, because building peace requires just as much stamina as waging war. The tasks of building peace are painstaking and often laborious, they are long-term, they do not have the same dramatic appeal.
Above all, I want this wartime collaboration to continue. One of the finest pieces of collaboration between nations that there has ever been was shown during this war, when our country and the United States had in Washington what we call the combined Chiefs of Staff. They, our military leaders of the Army, Navy and Air Force, sat round a common table day after day, and discussed their problems. They were able to do it without the light of publicity glaring down on them, without other people waiting on every meeting for decisions and being disappointed, and thinking that if they did not get a decision on Monday instead of Tuesday that it was the end of the world.
I hope that when the Prime Minister goes to America he will talk about the possibility of continuing the combined Chiefs of Staff throughout the years of peace. It could only do good. Perhaps he might go even further, and see if he cannot try to do something rather similar in the field of foreign policy and economic policy. If we can work with the men in the machine from top to bottom knowing their opposite numbers, talking to them without publicity, I believe that we might get together in a way we have never been before. I remember in the autumn of 1944, when I was in uniform in Washington for a short period. I was walking down a street one Sunday morning when an American whom I did not know approached me, and said, "We have suffered a great loss." I did not know what he was talking about. He said, "The Marshal was a wonderful man." I realised that only the day before Field Marshal Sir John Dill, our representative there, had died, and I then understood what the American was talking about. The stranger said, "As your representative on the combined Chiefs of Staff he was so close to us, he was loved by us and he was one of us. He was one of the common team." I heard that kind of remark so often. I want to see that spirit continued.
I feel that the visit of the Prime Minister to the United States is most timely. Following the breakdown of the
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London Conference, there has been something of a vacuum in world affairs. It is our sincere hope that our Prime Minister shall be the bridge over which the nations at opposite ends of the earth can get together, so that we can have a really solid friendship between the United States, Great Britain and Russia. We wish the Prime Minister well in his discussions on world affairs whole in America. We hope that he will take the opportunity to speak for Britain, and that he will be able to bring about the successful conclusion of the negotiations we are now having with the United States, arising out of Mutual Aid. I do not think that Members of this House who have really studied the problem could have been very surprised when Lend-Lease came to an end, because if they had followed the discussions in the Congress of the United States they would have known that when that programme was passed some years ago, a definite pledge was given by the Administration that it would last only for the duration of the war, and would then come to an end. Obviously we require to have further discussions.
During the Parliamentary Recess I spent some little time in the United States. As a Member of the Opposition I knew nothing of the inside of these discussions, but it was abundantly clear, from the American Press and the words their citizens used in their conversations that Lord Halifax and Lord Keynes were doing a very good job for our country. They were helping to interpret us to the people of America. I hope that while the Prime Minister is over there he will have a look at our Information Services, and see how we can help those people in the British Library of Information who, handicapped by lack of money and staff, are doing a very good job in the United States of America. It is plain, from the speeches on all sides of the House, that when the Prime Minister goes over there he speaks for Britain, he speaks for all of us, not as the leader of only one Party in the House. It is our united wish that he may achieve something of that political understanding and warm personal friendship which undoubtedly existed between the ex-Prime Minister and the late President of the United States. We wish our Prime Minister success in a most difficult task in interpreting Britain to the President and people of the United States.
8.38 p.m.
Mr. Percy Morris: In rising at this late hour I feel I ought to apologise doubly, especially in view of the fact that I have to crave the indulgence which the House so generously affords to Members who are making their maiden speeches. The general tenor of the Debate to-day makes me feel that we are seeking ways and means of adjusting ourselves to the new conditions caused by the discovery of the atomic bomb. I sincerely hope that the Prime Minister will think of it in another direction as well. I hope he will not close his mind to the suggestion that we should discard the atomic bomb altogether, and that in fact we should strive to discover the best ways and means of using atomic power for the benefit of the country in every possible way rather than think of it as a weapon of war. I must confess that when I heard the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) say this afternoon that we should make the bomb and store it, I had a sinking feeling. I represent a very badly blitzed town, and I have an intimate knowledge of the devastation and the desolation caused, not by the atomic bomb, but by what one would term a mere 1,000 or 2,000 lb. bomb. If the common man, reading the newspaper to-morrow, discovers that one of the principal suggestions emanating from the Opposition is that we should make these atomic bombs and store them, he will have very great doubts, indeed, whether the last war was fought and won and whether the cost was really worth while. Cannot we cultivate the habit of speaking of atomic power more often than of the atomic bomb? It is a tragedy of the age that even the adolescents and children speak of atomic bombs as if they were mere playthings, whereas we know, from painful experience, that they can bring us the greatest tragedy of all. Listening to the right hon. Gentleman for Woodford I recalled very readily the words that Kipling, I think, wrote some time ago:
"Nations have passed away and left no traces.
History gives the naked cause of it.
One simple, single reason, in all cases
They fell because their people were not fit."
We have to have a new attitude of mind in this problem, and I hope and pray that the Prime Minister, when he meets President Truman, will seek ways and means
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of persuading the people of America, and indeed the people of Russia, too, that the atomic bomb ought to be completely discarded. Unfortunately, we cannot forget it. Sir Lawrence Bragge, in a memorable broadcast early last year, I think it was, said that for a single issue the atomic bomb represented the greatest integration of brain effort that history can show us. The President of the Royal Society expressed the view that he was sorry that, in the stress of war, science had had to be a conscript, and that the fruits of scientific research had had to be used for destruction rather than for the healing and the health of the nation. I think the scientists of today hope for the time when they can apply their research knowledge in the same may as Mme. Curie applied her discovery of radium. When we encourage the scientist and give him free scope to engage in his research in order to bring about happiness, prosperity, health and healing then we shall, I feel, get the very best from him.
During the years 1939–45 this House did a great work, and I know it is very much to its credit that mere sentiment and cheap emotion make no appeal to it. But, surely, that does not mean that we are unmindful of the growing anxiety in the hearts of men and women today on account of the further threat of war as a result of the discovery of the atomic bomb. It does not mean that because we want to approach these problems dispassionately, and apply all sorts of thought to the solution of them that we have no feeling, no heart as it were, for the people who are wondering what the future holds for them. I know we prefer
"The even heart that seldom slurs its beat,
The cool head that weighs the heart's desires.
The seeing eye that measures hands and feet,
The soul unbroken, when the body tires."
These are the things the modern world requires. The mood of the people is such as I have said. I speak on behalf of people who have passed through terrible experiences during the last war, and who are hoping, and praying, that the Prime Minister, the President of the United States and Premier Stalin, those three people, will lead the world in bringing about the outlawing of war completely, and that we shall return to the ways of peace not on a temporary, but on a permanent, basis. I hope that when the

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Prime Minister returns he will be able to report progress in the direction indicated.
We have listened to statements from leaders on both sides of the House, but the number of speeches delivered, and the points of view expressed, in this Chamber must convince all that have authority and power that the common people are yearning for peace, and are prepared to sacrifice for peace, but if it means that we are just engaging in another mad race of armament, then they will feel that life is entirely in vain. I join with others in wishing the Prime Minister every success. We trust the lesson will rest upon him and that the people of America, Russia and Great Britain will make it abundantly clear to their leaders that we seek peace and not war, and that we want the fruits of science for the health of the nation, and the resources of the earth used in such a way that life will be a healthy and happy experience once again.
8.47 p.m.
Captain George Jeger: Much has been said this afternoon about the atom bomb, and its shadow may be said to have descended upon the whole of this evening's proceedings. Indeed, its shadow now spreads over the whole world, but, at the same time, life goes on in that shadow, and life will continue to go on. When our Prime Minister goes to America, his discussion will range not only over the subjects of atomic energy and the atomic bomb, but over a much wider area. Because of that, I seek in my intervention into this Debate to narrow this subject down to something on a smaller scale. Whilst agreement is always easy on general principles, international conferences and meetings of the Big Three have, in the past, proved that the test really comes on the translation of those general principles into actualities and hard facts, and transferring them into practical measures in the international field. I want to ask the Prime Minister, when he is discussing matters with the President of the United States, to pay attention to a point on which agreement has been reached between them, if not by speaking man to man, then in pronouncements made in this House and in the equivalent House in America, and pronouncements on which have been made by representatives of people in both countries. I refer to the question of Spain.
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Agreement has been reached between peoples of all democratic nations on the detestation and hatred of the present situation in Spain. Agreement has been reached between the leaders of both sides of this House on that question too, and, even in this Parliament, the character of which has changed completely during the last few months, there are very few indeed who are willing to avow themselves as the friends of Franco.
There is no need at this stage to argue the case against the present régime in Spain, nor to emphasise how the existence of this Nazi and Fascist hide-out must be a menace to democracy and peace all over the world. In my constituency of Winchester, several years ago, we had the honour and privilege of welcoming and extending hospitality to 4,000 Basque children brought over to this country as the first mass evacuation of refugees from a Fascist-invaded country, refugees from Fascist aggression and the indiscriminate bombing of civilians. We, and the rest of Europe, later experienced that suffering ourselves, and in the various districts of my constituency, Eastleigh, Chandlers Ford and Southampton which extended that hospitality proudly and generously to those child refugees, they are watching the conduct of Spain, because their sympathy is still keen and alive on that subject, and they hope that this House will very soon do something about it. President Truman, in the course of his 12 points to which reference has been made, did deal with the subject on which I am now speaking. Point 2 says:
"We believe in the eventual return of sovereign rights and self-government to all peoples who have been deprived of them by force."
Point 4 says:
"Al1 peoples who are prepared for self-government should be permitted to choose their own form of government by their own freely expressed choice."
Point 5 says:
"We shall try to attain a world in which Nazism, Fascism and military aggression cannot exist."
Point 6 says:
"We shall refuse to recognise any government imposed on any nation by force by any foreign power."
I submit that all this applies definitely to the present régime in Spain, and on that basis joint action of a speedy character can be taken in full co-operation between

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our Government and that of the United State. Action can be taken on the diplomatic field by demanding the release of political prisoners from the camps and prisons in Spain which are very like those which existed in Nazi Germany before our acts of liberation, and also by taking care to see that those who are classed as criminal prisoners in Spain are not there really on political grounds and falsely classed as criminals. We can demand free elections in Spain, and we can withdraw our recognition of the Franco Government and establish diplomatic relations with the Cortes at present meeting in Mexico, encouraging it in exactly the same way as we did the De Gaulle Government which was set up outside the territory of France. We can take action jointly in full co-operation on the economic too, by severing trade relations and by refusing to bolster up foreign trade with Franco Spain. A few days ago I was amazed to see that petrol was being shipped into Spain in larger quantities—petrol which was going to allow the petrol ration of individuals in Spain to be increased, while we in this country are going short of petrol for essential needs. That is a matter on which I would like our Government to take action, and in full co-operation with the American Government action can be taken.
During the years immediately preceding the late war we contracted a number of "debts of honour" in various countries in international affairs. We stood aloof while China, Abyssinia, Czechoslovakia and Spain suffered from Nazi and Fascist aggression, and we bear a heavy responsibility for those days. All those claims and burdens on our conscience are now cleared in China, Czechoslovakia and Abyssinia, but not yet in Spain, and we have now the opportunity of clearing our conscience on that last final bastion of Fascism in Europe. I am well aware of the sympathy of His Majesty's Government on this question, which has been expressed over and over again, but sympathy is not enough, and the time has now come when action is needed to bring freedom to the remaining victims of Fascism in Europe. There Fascism was being fought, while Members of this House and other people in this country and other countries were being deluded by the menace of Fascism, thinking it
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was friendly to the interests of democracy and of this country, and allowing themselves to be led astray by those beliefs. Those days have passed, and I hope that very soon, as a result of an agreement between the Prime Minister and the President of the United States, Franco Spain will pass too.
8.54 p.m.
Major Digby: It is my pleasant duty to congratulate the two maiden speakers who have just spoken, the hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. P. Morris) and the hon. and gallant Member for Winchester (Captain Jeger). I think we all agree that both discharged their difficult duties extremely well. They produced some original ideas, and we shall look forward to hearing them in our Debates many times in the future.
In this Debate, it seems to me that some speakers have struck a note suggesting that there might be something inconsistent between advocating closer relations with the United States of America, and the continuation of any close relations with Russia. I, for my part, wish to make it absolutely clear that no such thought is in my mind, and if I am to devote myself in my speech to the subject of America, that is because of the forthcoming visit of the Prime Minister. At the same time, I would not wish that anything I say to be taken as meaning that I am less in favour of friendship with Russia. I was somewhat heartened by the very excellent speech which we heard from the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary. When I came here this evening I could not help casting my mind back to the day three months ago when we were debating the Charter of the United Nations, and I reflected that in those three months international relations can hardly be said to have developed for the better. In fact, I think many would feel that it has deteriorated. But the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary has reminded us of the difficulties which always succeed a war. Those difficulties have always been there.
I believe it was the poet Dryden who said that "even victors oft are by victories undone." That is very true. After a great victory such as we have enjoyed, there is always a period when it is difficult for us to pull together, as we have done in the face of the common enemy. That is why I am very glad that

1385
the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister is going to the United States of America to discuss some of these outstanding problems with the President. I am very glad that he is going to the United States because, owing to the course which the war took, we have worked in very close partnership with that country. It is a country which I have the privilege of knowing well. I have the privilege of having worked under Americans and, like other hon. and gallant Members who have spoken, I have had the privilege of serving on a combined Anglo-American staff, and seeing how it is possible for the representatives of the two countries to work together as one team. I should like to endorse what was said by the hon. and gallant Member for South Blackpool (Wing-Commander R. Robinson) when he said that this combined machinery which had been built up should not be too lightly cast away. It seems to some of us that S.H.A.E.F. was scrapped too soon. We still have the combined Chiefs of Staff in Washington working together in the spirit of the greatest frankness. It would be a very great pity if that machinery were scrapped too soon, because it is, after all, a concrete step in international co-operation. It could be said with truth that distrust is the cause of most wars, but let me say at once that in the case of the United States of America I cannot see that we have anything but the greatest reasons for showing trust and confidence. We know from her past actions how close she is to our ideas, and there is no country which I would sooner trust in possession of great power, such as she has attained during the course of the war, than the United States of America.
It has been fashionable tonight to talk a lot about the atomic bomb. I do not propose to do so because I am no expert on the subject, and because, unlike many hon. Members, I have not very set views on the subject. One thing which has surprised me is that more distinction has not been drawn between the idea of atomic energy as something which can be used in peace and the atomic bomb, which is merely a method of destruction in war; and whereas I am sure that all nations should have the benefit of atomic energy for the purposes of peace it seems to me that the atomic bomb, for the purposes of war, is one of those secrets which one would wish to be very careful about
1386
divulging. It is a great military secret, like the secret about D-Day, which few would wish to enjoy unless they had to bear the responsibility of it.
I should like to go on to the Twelve Points which President Truman announced not long ago. As the authoritative pronouncement of the head of a great people I think they are very satisfactory and should be welcomed by the people of this country. In the past we have suffered a great deal because America was not willing to playa larger part in the affairs of the rest of the world. The League of Nations might have been more successful had the United States stayed0in after the inaugural period. [An Hon. Member: "Come in."] Indeed, Mr. Walter Lippmann, in a very excellent work which he wrote upon United States foreign policy which appeared about two years ago, went so far as to say:
"We must face the fact that for nearly 50 years the nation has not had a settled and generally accepted foreign policy."
It is certainly in the interests of the world that America should take the greatest possible interest in the affairs of the whole world and of the United Nations. I would welcome those Twelve Points as an indication that America proposes to do more to shoulder her great international responsibilities than she has always felt willing to do in the past
In connection with the Twelve Points I should like to direct attention towards a part of the world which has not been mentioned tonight, but which, I think, is of very great importance, and that is the Pacific area, the Far East. When we speak of the Far East we know that the future of that part of the world revolves very largely round China. Every one of us would be willing, I think, to accept the first of President Truman's points, in which he said that the United States seeks no territorial expansion or selfish advantages. We should be willing to accept that, and we can examine it in relation to the position in the Far East, because there American Forces are very predominant, in a part of the world where, before the war, this country had the greatest share of trade, and we can apply this term "Selfish advantages" to the question of trade. In his book "The Far Eastern Crisis"—about the Manchurian position—Mr. Stimson said that, in his relations with

1387
other countries about the Far East, although there were other countries which had larger share of commerce there than had the United States, none of them really had quite such a keen interest in that part of the world as the United States, owing to their geographical proximity. None would be quicker to realise that than would I and hon. Gentlemen in this House. At the same time we have to remember that we did have a large share of the trade of that part of the world. I hope that the question of the future of the Pacific area will be discussed at those talks. It is of the greatest interest not only to the mother country but to Australia and New Zealand, and even to Canada.
I should like to say once again how glad I am that the Prime Minister is going across to see President Truman. I very much hope that something will come out of this to improve international relations, to draw us more closely together and in particular to put more lifeblood into the United Nations. I hope that British interests in the broadest sense, particularly in the Pacific, will not be lost sight of. The right hon. Gentleman is going to a country which has, in the course of the war, become the most powerful of the English-speaking countries, in industry and in arms and it is already by far the greatest in population. I hope that when he is there and talks to the Americans about these problems, the right hon. Gentleman will not hesitate to use plain English.
9.8 p.m.
Mr. Gallacher: When the predecessor of the present Foreign Secretary came down to this House last year with a 20-year Alliance with the Soviet Union there was general agreement that such an Alliance with increasing friendship with Russia was the hope of this country and of Europe for peace and security; but any visitor from another planet coming to this country today, reading certain sections of the Press and listening to speeches in this House might be excused for believing that Soviet Russia was the country with which we had been at war for the past five years. [Hon. Members: "Nonsense."] Never has an opportunity been missed for publishing the most outrageous distortions and even direct lies. Last night in this
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House we had a tremendous barrage against the Soviet Union about some mythical masses of Germans who were coming out of the Russian zone and into the British zone. Not a word of truth in it. The most rabid speeches were made by the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) and others. The other day we had the hon. and gallant Member for East Renfrew (Major Lloyd)—and the stuff he was pouring out. What poison. Most ghastly stuff. Yes, anyone can read it in various sections of the Press, and hear in many of the speeches.
Now, of course, the real man is coming out on the other side: "We don't need the Soviet Alliance now to safeguard the future for us." The atomic bomb will safeguard the future of Britain, as hon. Members on the other side see it. The right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) made a speech this afternoon of the most dangerous character—[Laughter.] Yes, a speech that was a declaration, or the hope of a declaration, of war against the progressive forces of Europe and the world. [Hon. Members: "Nonsense."] Oh, yes. It is "America, America." A Member on the other side said that in this country we have freedom of expression, that in America there is freedom of expression, but he was sorry to say that in Russia there was not the same freedom. [An Hon. Member: "That is true."] In Russia there is a whole series of nations, black and white, and every man has freedom of expression. [Interruption.] Yes, every one who has visited Russia and has studied Russia agrees that there is democracy in the industries of the Soviet Union. [An Hon. Member: "What about the newspapers?"] The whole basis upon which the Soviet economy is built is democracy in industry. You will not find any democracy in industry in this country.
Mr. Driberg: Or in the newspapers.
Mr. Gallacher: I am prepared to take my stand with the workers of the Soviet Union. I have always been proud of them as being the first to throw off the landlords. [Interruption.] Yes, the first to throw off the landlords and capitalists. That is something that should always be remembered. You can search Soviet Russia from one end to the other and

1389
you will not find a Tory landlord. You can search Russia from end to end and you will not find a monopoly capitalist. In America there are millions of negroes; will anyone tell me that they have got freedom of expression?
Mr. Michael Astor: Yes, very free, almost too free.
Mr. Gallacher: Will anybody tell me that the "poor whites" in the South have got free expression?
Mr. Astor: I say, "Yes."
Mr. Gallacher: I can bring an abundance of proof, not only that they have not got freedom of expression but that in thousands and hundreds of thousands of cases they are prevented from having a vote. Mr. Byrnes, the American Secretary of State, represents only the very smallest percentage of his State. Is there free expression of opinion in India? There are thousands of political prisoners in India to-day. It is ghastly hypocrisy and cant to talk of free expression in this country and in America. What is the cause of all this trouble about the Soviet Union, Poland, Yugoslavia and the rest? We intervened in Greece, and I will guarantee that when the Under-Secretary goes to Greece he will find the landlords in possession of the land, but if he goes to Yugoslavia, Poland, Bulgaria, and Hungary, he will find that the landlords have gone. On the radio two weeks ago we were told by a commentator that it was impossible to set up a single administration for the whole of Germany, because of the different policies in the different zones. We are told that the Germans are very fond of us, we are so decent, we are so honest. I have never heard so much boasting as there was in the Debate last Friday. Talk about the Pharisee and the publican! "If only others would be as decent as we are," they say. They tell us on the radio that in the Soviet zone a great land reform is being carried on. Are there any East Prussian Junkers left in the Soviet zone? Not one.
They are all in the British or American zones. Their estates have all been taken over and divided up among the peasants. [An HON. MEMBER: "Robbery."] Yes, that is what is considered as robbery by hon. Members opposite. They want to keep the peasants in poverty and misery and the East Prussian junkers in idle
1390
luxury, building up armies to conquer here and conquer there—
It being a quarter past Nine o'Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Blenkinsop.]
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Driberg.
Mr. Gallacher Mr. Gallacher rose—
Mr. Speaker:The hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) must remember that the last half hour is given to Private Members, and as the hon. Member did not finish his speech at a quarter past nine, he cannot talk any longer on the previous subject of debate.

MILITARY DETENTION BARRACK (CONDITIONS)
9.16 p.m.
Mr. Driberg: I apologise to the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) if I use this last half hour of the Adjournment Motion, as is usual, to bring down the consideration of hon. Members from these grand and global themes to some particular problem. I want to raise a matter which is of interest, I suggest, to all hon. Members, because it may affect any of their constituents from whatever part of the country they come. I want to raise the question of the conditions in Stakehill military detention barracks. It is unfortunate that in this country it is, apparently, always necessary for a man to die before the attention of the House and the public generally is directed to the conditions in detention barracks. A year or two ago, as hon. Members will remember, there was a disgraceful and tragic episode at Fort Darland barracks, when Rifleman Clayton died as a result of ill-treatment. It will be within the memory of hon. Members what happened following that incident. As a result of pressure in this House, the then Secretary of State for War, Sir James Grigg, rather reluctantly and grudgingly appointed a judicial committee presided over by Mr. Justice Oliver, which toured the country, visited detention barracks without warning, took evidence from thousands of witnesses under conditions which guaranteed them immunity against victimisation, and eventually presented a report which

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did undoubtedly have some good results. As a result of the Oliver Report, many improvements were effected in conditions in detention barracks throughout this country and especially, I believe, at Fort Darland, the barracks which was the scene of the tragedy which originally led to the setting up of the Oliver Committee.
It is just a month ago today since an unfortunate man named James Hanlon was found dead hanging in Stake-hill Military detention barracks. Since that date a number of Questions have been asked in the House about the incident, and on 30th October I asked the Secretary of State for War if he could make a statement on this fatality and to what extent conditions in Stakehill detention barracks conformed with the recommendations of the Oliver Report. He replied that he could not at that time make a full statement, but that "all the recommendations of the Oliver Report" had been put into effect at Stakehill. The latter part of the reply is one of the things which I wish, with respect, to challenge tonight, because although the Oliver Report made a great many recommendations about sanitation and other material things, it also made some recommendations about personnel and other less material matters. I just want to read one sentence from the Report of the Oliver Committee.
"The regimental sergeant-majors at the Military institutions and the warrant masters at arms at the Naval Quarters were, from our observation, quite admirable people who knew their work and did it thoroughly and sympathetically; but the staff below them varied a good deal in quality and were not sufficient in number. Some of them were past the work. Others were insufficiently trained and some were constitutionally unfitted for the task."
I should like to ask my right hon. Friend if, when he comes to reply, he would tell the House whether those recommendations or implied recommendations of the Oliver Report have also been carried into effect, not only the material things, which we know have been done. I myself have visited Fort Darland and other barracks since the Oliver Report, and I know that the sanitation has been improved, perhaps the food has been improved, perhaps more educational schemes have been brought into effect; but the real essential basic difficulty about detention barracks, as far as one can make out, is the attitude
1392
of the staff towards the detainees. And obviously it must be rather a long-term business to replace the old wrong kind of staff by the new kind of staff who have a proper attitude towards those men who are unfortunate enough or foolish enough to get into their clutches. Can my right hon. Friend tell me, when he comes to reply, what steps have been taken really radically and drastically to reform the whole system of recruitment to the staffs of these detention barracks, because it seems to me to be a very important point?
With regard to the particular case of Stakehill Detention Barracks, I hope that my right hon. Friend will be able tonight to give us some fuller statement than he has hitherto been able to do and, in particular, that he will be able to tell us whether the inquiry, which has already apparently been conducted—because he said on 30th October that he had received a report on 25th October from the Military Court of Inquiry which was then being examined—has gone fully into all the implications of this case. I cannot help feeling that besides that Military Court of Inquiry, which has already investigated the particular case of the unfortunate suicide or hanging at Stakehill, there ought now to be another and fuller inquiry which would not be of an exclusively military character. I cannot help feeling that there ought to foe another inquiry, perhaps not exactly the same as the Oliver Committee, but some kind of inquiry on which impartial civilians were represented and on which, it may be, the relatives of the man who died a month ago were represented, or at least before which they could say what they wanted to say about the events leading up to Private Hanlon's death.
I would also suggest that, on any such inquiry, there should be representatives, not only of officers, but also of other ranks. There is no reason whatever why there should not be ex-Service men, or Service men, warrant officers, sergeants and private soldiers—some, indeed, who may have had, through misfortune, to spend some time in detention barracks. [Hon. Members: "Why misfortune?"] If hon. Members think that that is a ridiculous suggestion, I would invite them to consider for a moment whether everybody who has been in detention barracks during the late war could be described as a hardened criminal. [Hon. Members:

1393
"That is not the same thing."] There may be men who have slipped up, and committed offences against military discipline and who found themselves for quite a short period in detention barracks, and I suggest, quite seriously and sincerely, that it might well be that some such man might be found, a man of normally good character and intelligence, who might well serve on such a commission of inquiry, and himself, from his own experiences, contribute something useful to the findings of that inquiry.
Above all, if there is such another inquiry, we have to safeguard ourselves in this House, since we are obviously interested in such matters, from any suggestion that we are merely concerned with whitewashing the authorities responsible. None of us want to do that. We do really want to get to the root of these matters, and I suggest that some thorough inquiry should be instituted, other than the purely military inquiry, about which I have no doubt my right hon. Friend will be able to say something tonight.
I should just like to refer, in passing, to the evidence which has been sent to me, and, I think, to other hon. Members and to the War Office, by a local clergyman, through whose instrumentality this matter really first attained a good deal of publicity and excited a certain amount of public disquiet—the Rev. Urien Evans, of Castleton, Rochdale. He has sent me statements of evidence which he has received from a large number of people, many of whom have served time in Stakehill Detention Barracks. Some are relatives of people who have served time in Stakehill. In all, there are 32 different statements, and the rather startling thing about them is that every one is signed with the name and address of the writers, including Servicemen who have served time there; and all of them allege pretty disgraceful brutality and other wrong things happening in these detention barracks.
That is a very surprising thing, because one of the difficulties, as the Oliver Committee found out, in getting really dependable evidence about what is happening inside these places always is that, of course, people are either afraid of being victimised if they do speak out freely, or else, at the other extreme, we get the exhibitionist type, who, as the R.A.F. say, "shoot a line" about what they have
1394
been through. The great difficulty is to strike a balance between these two, and I must say that I am very much impressed by the evidence of these 32 people who have had the courage to give their names and addresses to the Secretary of State for War, and to Members of this House as testifying to the conditions of brutality which exist in Stakehill Detention Bar racks. This clergyman, in sending this statement of evidence to me, sent a covering letter in which he said:
"It seems to me that the guards and privileged prisoners torment individual prisoners to such an extent, when no officers or visitors are likely to be present, that it is beyond human endurance. The unfortunate victim is then forced to retaliate, thereby giving the opening for him to be beaten up without fear of censure. Even strong men are so cowed under this treatment that they dare not complain."
He adds:
"I have a letter here saying that the writer will murder one particular guard at Stakehill when he is demobbed because of the treatment meted out to him while interned at the camp. One cannot condone such a threat, but one must ask why such a state of affairs exists. Incidentally, the guard in question, under oath, denied ill-treatment at the inquest on the deceased, Private Hanlon."
I suggest that there is sufficient prima facie evidence for us to agree that things are not as they should be in this particular camp at Stakehill, and I shall be most grateful if my right hon. Friend will not only tell us all that he knows as to what has already happened—the result of the Military Inquiry that has already taken place—but also what plans he has for the future to clean up, not only this particular place, but any other detention barracks there may be where things are not as they should be.
9.32 p.m.
The Secretary of State for War (Mr. J. J. Lawson):I should like to thank my hon. Friend for raising this question and giving me an opportunity of making a statement upon the inquiry which has already been held. It is right, of course, that matters affecting the soldier who is under detention should, under such circumstances as my hon. Friend has described, receive the attention of this House, and this, particular incident was one of a very grave nature. With the general aspect of the question of detention places I cannot deal as my hon. Friend would ask me; all I can say is that, as he himself said, the Oliver Com-

1395
mittee was set up to deal with detention prisons generally, and a very useful piece of work was done which was welcomed by this House. I can say to him that, from the report I have received and from all the inquiries I have made myself, the recommendations of the Oliver Committee have been applied generally to these places of detention and, indeed, have been applied to this particular place, Stakehill.
My hon. Friend asked a particular question about the staffs. I can tell him that, since the Oliver Report was published, the staff have been increased by 12 per cent., and there is functioning now a school to train the new entrants for the purpose of becoming staff officers. With regard to the tragic incident which happened at Stakehill, there was, first, a coroner's inquest, at which the coroner himself made it quite clear that there was ample evidence that Private Hanlon had had very serious domestic troubles.
If the House will forgive me, I would like to read, for the purposes of greater accuracy, a statement of the conclusions I reached on a report which was submitted to me by the local military authority. This inquiry was assembled under King's Regulations on the day after Private Hanlon met his death, to investigate the circumstances in which the fatality occurred. It was in no sense a general inquiry into the administration of the Stakehill Detention Barracks, although its scope covered statements affecting the administration made by witnesses in connection with the case. I read the proceedings of the inquiry and the evidence obtained from witnesses at the inquest—in fact, I have spent many hours during the last two days reading this report and evidence, as well as the report of the inquiry. The court of inquiry, like the inquest, produced a number of conflicting statements, but did not produce any proof that anything in the nature of "beating-up" had occurred in this case. The information which I received confirms the view of the coroner that there were other reasons to explain the determination of Private Hanlon to take his life. It also shows the recommendations of the Oliver Report had been put into effect at Stakehill. There is, however,
1396
some indication that there have been irregularities of procedure in one or two respects. But, in general, I am convinced for whatever shortcomings there have been individuals, and not the system, must be held responsible.
Nevertheless, in view of the public anxiety which has been aroused, and which has been expressed tonight by my hon. Friend, and also in fairness to the staff and because certain allegations have been made since the court of inquiry was held, I have decided to convene a further court of inquiry of a more authoritative character. In order to elicit the truth, and in the interests of individuals whose conduct may be impugned, it is necessary that evidence be obtained from witnesses on oath, and for that reason the new court must be a court of military officers convened under the Army Act. I propose to invite a practising member of the Bar of standing, who holds a commission, to be a legal member of that court. The court will not have the power of a court of law to apply disciplinary sanctions to individuals, but it will be required to report to me, and in the light of its findings a decision will be reached as to what, if any, disciplinary action is necessary. I will inform the House of the outcome of the inquiry.
As regards the several allegations which have been made that the court will have no power to compel the attendance of witnesses who are no longer in the Service, but subject to the discretion of the court, those who have made allegations relating to recent events—all of whose addresses have been communicated to me—will be invited to give evidence on oath to the court in substantiation of the allegations they have made. I hope they will see fit to do so, because otherwise it will not be possible to make their statements serve any useful purpose. In fairness to those who have the difficult task of running detention barracks, I am sure the House will agree that it would, at this stage, be wrong and unjust to prejudge the outcome of the inquiry. With that statement, I hope the House will forgive me if I do not say anything more on this matter tonight.

Preamble
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty Minutes to Ten o'clock.

ROYAL NAVY
  Strength
  Strength
  Demobilisation
  Demobilisation
  Surplus Vessels (Transfer to Fishing Industry)
  Surplus Vessels (Transfer to Fishing Industry)
  Repatriation
  Repatriation
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Demobilisation
  Demobilisation
  Aircrew Badges
  Aircrew Badges
  Overseas Postings
  Overseas Postings
  Far East Service (Kit)
  Far East Service (Kit)
  Special Air Trooping Scheme
  Special Air Trooping Scheme
  Requisitioned Properties (Maidstone)
  Requisitioned Properties (Maidstone)
  W.A.A.F.
  W.A.A.F.
  Instructors
  Instructors
  Requisitioned Flats (Paddington)
  Requisitioned Flats (Paddington)
  Building Workers (Release)
  Building Workers (Release)
  Home Postings
  Home Postings
  Dispersal Centre (Scotland)
  Dispersal Centre (Scotland)
  Repatriation
  Repatriation
  Hangar, North Somercotes
  Hangar, North Somercotes
  Accidents (Ferrying Service)
  Accidents (Ferrying Service)
  Cinemas
  Cinemas
  WOMEN'S AUXILIARY SERVICES
  WOMEN'S AUXILIARY SERVICES
  GENEVA CONVENTION (ITALIAN VIOLATION)
  GENEVA CONVENTION (ITALIAN VIOLATION)
BRITISH ARMY
  Guerilla Organisations (Malaya)
  Guerilla Organisations (Malaya)
  Dominion Subjects
  Dominion Subjects
MALAYA
  Communist Party
  Communist Party
  Rubber and Tin Industries
  Rubber and Tin Industries
  Internees (Compensation)
  Internees (Compensation)
  PALESTINE (EXPELLED WAR CORRESPONDENT)
  PALESTINE (EXPELLED WAR CORRESPONDENT)
  ITALIAN PRISONERS OF WAR
  ITALIAN PRISONERS OF WAR
  U.N.R.R.A. (EMPLOYEES' WIVES)
  U.N.R.R.A. (EMPLOYEES' WIVES)
  SECRET AGREEMENTS
  SECRET AGREEMENTS
  HELIGOLAND
  HELIGOLAND
  ALLIED FORCES (RECOGNITION OF ASSISTANCE)
  ALLIED FORCES (RECOGNITION OF ASSISTANCE)
  MISSING PRISONERS OF WAR
  MISSING PRISONERS OF WAR
  DUTCH EAST INDIES (CONVERSATIONS)
  DUTCH EAST INDIES (CONVERSATIONS)
  EASTERN EUROPE (CENSORSHIP)
  EASTERN EUROPE (CENSORSHIP)
  UGANDA (DEPORTATIONS)
  UGANDA (DEPORTATIONS)
  Protective Forces (Cost)
  Protective Forces (Cost)
PALESTINE
  Arab Immigrants
  Arab Immigrants
  Immigrants
  Immigrants
  Agriculture
  Agriculture
  WEST INDIES (SUGAR INDUSTRY)
  WEST INDIES (SUGAR INDUSTRY)
  NYASALAND (LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL)
  NYASALAND (LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL)
  CEYLON (SRI LANKA BILL)
  CEYLON (SRI LANKA BILL)
  MALTA (COMMISSIONER)
  MALTA (COMMISSIONER)
  COLONIES (INDUSTRIAL CAREERS)
  COLONIES (INDUSTRIAL CAREERS)
  WEST AFRICA (PRODUCE CONTROL BOARD)
  WEST AFRICA (PRODUCE CONTROL BOARD)
  BLOOD TRANSFUSION SERVICE
  BLOOD TRANSFUSION SERVICE
  BOARD OF TRADE ORDERS (ENFORCEMENT COST)
  BOARD OF TRADE ORDERS (ENFORCEMENT COST)
  WAR DAMAGE (VALUE PAYMENTS)
  WAR DAMAGE (VALUE PAYMENTS)
  BRITAIN AND CZECHOSLOVAKIA (MONETARY AGREEMENT)
  BRITAIN AND CZECHOSLOVAKIA (MONETARY AGREEMENT)
  SOCIAL SURVEYS
  SOCIAL SURVEYS
  TELEVISION
  TELEVISION
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Surplus Blankets
  Surplus Blankets
  Electrical Components (Raw Materials)
  Electrical Components (Raw Materials)
  MOTOR VEHICLES (SPARE PARTS)
  MOTOR VEHICLES (SPARE PARTS)
  DOCKERS (WAGES)
  DOCKERS (WAGES)
  UNOFFICIAL STRIKES
  UNOFFICIAL STRIKES
  COAL INDUSTRY (SUBSIDENCE)
  COAL INDUSTRY (SUBSIDENCE)
CIVIL AVIATION
  Private Aircraft (Aviation Fuel)
  Private Aircraft (Aviation Fuel)
  Heath Row Airport (Rail Access)
  Heath Row Airport (Rail Access)
  Air Attachés (Personal Aircraft)
  Air Attachés (Personal Aircraft)
  Trans-Atlantic Fares
  Trans-Atlantic Fares
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Independent Committee
  Independent Committee
  Letter
  Letter
Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, THE LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
Several Lords—Took the Oath.
LORD KILLEARN.
The Right Honourable Sir Miles Wedderburn Lampson, G.C.M.G., C.B., having been created Baron Killearn of Killearn in the County of Stirling—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT ADDISON): My Lords, it has been reported to me by the Lord Chancellor that the Law Lords will not be sitting again until Monday, having finished an appeal. Your Lordships will be aware that the arrangement recently arrived at, that we should meet on Thursdays at 4 o'clock, was in order that the Court might have a full session on that day. That will not be required tomorrow, and, as we have before us the Committee stage of a very important Bill, which may take a considerable time, I think it may be, for your Lordships' convenience—though the notice is, unfortunately, very short, for which I am sorry, but for which I am not responsible—that we should meet tomorrow at 2.30 o'clock, the same time as today. I hope that, notwithstanding the short notice, that will meet your Lordships' convenience.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I think that is a very good arrangement, because there is a great deal on the Order Paper tomorrow. In spite of the short notice, it will certainly be for the convenience of the House.

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
CHARTERED AND OTHER BODIES (RESUMPTION OF ELECTIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.

THE FOREIGN SERVICE.
2.46 p.m.
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA THE EARL OF DROGHEDA rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they could state what progress had been made in implementing the proposals' for the reform of the Foreign Service; and to move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, some considerable time has, I think, elapsed since any question concerning the Foreign Service was raised in Parliament, or at any rate in your Lordships' House. Therefore I have put down the Motion which stands in my name, because I think that it is well that we should be kept informed of anything which really affects the efficiency and the well-being of the Foreign Service. Nothing could more vitally affect that Service than does the scheme of reform to which my Motion refers. That scheme is set forth in a Command Paper entitled Proposals for the Reform of the Foreign Service, which was presented to Parliament by the Foreign Secretary in 1943, and which deals with some most important matters.
It might perhaps be convenient if at this stage I were to remind your Lordships not, of course, of all its details, but of its four main provisions. These are as follows. First, the amalagamation into one unified Service of what have hitherto been three distinct Services—the Diplomatic Service, the Consular Service, and the Commercial Diplomatic Service. Secondly, the introduction of an entirely new method of recruitment and training. Thirdly, the appointment of an additional Deputy Under-Secretary of State at the Foreign Office to deal with questions of administration and non-political affairs. Fourthly, the grant to the Foreign Secretary of powers enabling him to superannuate on pension any member of the Foreign Service, even though such member may not have reached normal pensionable age or years of service. I most warmly support those proposals. Indeed, I regard this as one of the most pleasing legacies left to His Majesty's present Government by their predecessors.
I need hardly say that I have not put my Motion clown in any spirit of unfriendliness towards a Department in w I had the honour to serve very many years ago, at a time when one of the rising young men of the Diplomatic Service was His Majesty's present Ambassador at Cairo, the noble Lord, Lord Killearn, who has been introduced into your Lordships' House this afternoon. The scheme of which I have spoken is not, of course, and does not purport to be, the last word in possible Foreign Service reform. Indeed, the Command Paper describes it as being an outline, necessarily incomplete and liable to modification in detail, of the proposals for a new Foreign Service. But that scheme, so far as I know, holds the field. It is most important and far-reaching, and, therefore, I intend to confine my remarks this afternoon to that scheme only, and not to be led astray into discussing such inviting topics as the changes that will certainly be required in the internal administration of the Foreign Office under modern conditions, or the position of the Department of Oversee s Trade, that offspring of the Foreign Office from the Board of Trade whose parents seem never to have agreed either as to its allegiance or as to its future.
I wish, if I may, to ask His Majesty s Government three general questions. Do they adopt the 1943 scheme? If so, is any important modification of it proposed and in what direction? Are they now in a position to complete what was described as the incomplete outline or, at any rate, to fill it in to some extent? Having asked those general questions, may I turn once again, for a moment, to the four particular proposals? Your Lordships will remember that the first of these proposals was the amalgamation of the three Services. Well, I do not think that anyone could be found who would object to that proposal, because it is plainly right, under modern conditions, that every member of the Foreign Service should hove some knowledge of the economic as well as of the political side of the Service. And I think that that particular proposal, at any rate, must already have been carried into effect because the Command Paper speaks of it as going to he introduced immediately, and "immediately," of course, was two years ago—in 1943. The Paper goes on, I think, to say that some time must elapse before the three
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branches of the Service can be made interchangeable, because that cannot happen until the new entrants have received training so that they are able to do the three kinds of work that will be required of them. That is, perhaps, inevitable. The great thing is that we shall know, in the future, that members of the Foreign Service will have the same wide training and equal opportunities of rising to the highest posts.
The second proposal, the introduction of a new method of recruitment, is, I think, the most novel and also the most important of the changes advocated. I think that I am right in saying that, hitherto, anyone who wanted to join the Foreign Service had first to appear before a special selection board and obtain leave to compete in an examination. He then went away, and, for a considerable time, either at his own or his parents' expense, studied various subjects. He then took his examination and, if successful, he at once became a full member of the Service. As I understand it, the new method contemplates three different stages. The old selection board is abolished, and, instead, there is an open competitive test designed so that it can be taken without any specialized study. The successful candidates then receive travelling studentships which will enable them to go abroad for eighteen months and, at the expense of the State, study at least two foreign languages, economics and history. Then they have a qualifying examination, and those who qualify become full members of the Service, subject to one year's probationary period, half of which will be spent at the Foreign Office and the other half in studying economic, social, industrial and labour questions in the Government Departments which deal with such matters or in centres of industry or any other suitable place.
That seems to me to be a most admirable scheme. It has two great advantages. In the first place, it will enable anyone to compete for the Foreign Service, whether he has any private means of his own or not. In the second place, it will ensure that everyone who goes abroad to a post in the Service will at least have some real knowledge of his own country before he goes. That has by no means always been the case in the past. Indeed, a candidate had to have very exceptional ability if he was to find time after leaving school to study any questions other than

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those he was likely to meet with in his examination. Looking back over the years, I realize how ill-equipped I and most of my contemporaries must have been when we joined the Service, although I am afraid at times we were blissfully unconscious of the depths of our ignorance. I am sure that the new scheme is a great advance on anything known hitherto either in this or in any other country. It is inevitable, I suspect, that some time must pass before the scheme can be brought into full operation and in the meantime no doubt some provisional temporary form of examination will have to be held in order to fill the vacancies, which by now must be numerous.
In the meantime, may I ask His Majesty's Government if they will consider one or two suggestions? The first one is that six months seems a very short time in which to learn about social, economic, labour and industrial conditions in this country. I quite realize that it would not be fair to keep people on probation for more than one year but surely the period of probation might come to an end and the period of study, if that is found advisable, should go on rather beyond the six months. Then I should like to suggest that as much of that period as possible should be spent not in other Government Departments because entrants will have had six months in the Foreign Service. One Government Department tends to be very much like another and one may know a very great deal about Whitehall and yet be amazingly ignorant of Britain.
I should also like to suggest that as much of the time as possible should be spent in the provinces rather than in London and in seeing conditions from an unofficial rather an official angle—not from too lofty an angle, but the angle, in fact, of the man in the street and the man who has to earn his living in England, Scotland, Wales and even Ireland. I suggest also that it is very desirable that members of the Service should be given the chance at not too infrequent periods during their career to come home and refresh the knowledge they will have gained during their studentship period in England. Life in the Foreign Service tends, and must tend, to be somewhat that of an exile and it is only natural that people in the Service on coming home
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should go and visit their families and friends. I think it is important that they should be brought home on some job which will keep them here and which will refresh their knowledge of England, because the higher up you get in the Service the more important it is that you should keep in personal contact with trends of thought and events in England.
The last point I have to make on this particular proposal is that I trust that our Missions and Consulates abroad will be sufficiently well-staffed to enable the members of the Service while they are abroad to spend some time, not perhaps each year, but frequently, going about the countries in which they are posted and learning about them in the same way as when they are students they are going to learn about England. In the past many posts have been insufficiently staffed and people were tied far too many to their desks. The third proposal in the scheme is the appointment of an additional Under-Secretary of State at the Foreign Office, and I know that that proposal has already been carried into effect aria that the best possible appointment has been made. I hope that the Deputy Under-Secretary will see to it that the Personnel Department of the Foreign Office is always kept strongly staffed both in quality and quantity, because I know from my own experience that the nonpolitical Departments in the Foreign Office have a way of not always attracting the best men in the Service.
Finally, I come to the last of the four proposals, the proposal that the Foreign Secretary should have powers to superannuate. That, I imagine, was brought into effect by the Foreign Service Act of 1943. The only point I wish to make on that is that some of the wording of the White Paper makes me fear rather that the intention is not to use that power until the members of the Service are nearing the end of their careers. The wording which makes me fear that is something like this: "It is necessary that the Foreign Secretary should have the power to terminate by retirement on pension the careers of those members of the Service who, although perhaps excellent as subordinates, have shown that they are not fitted for the higher posts." My personal experience has been that the men who are not fitted

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for the higher posts have not been excellent subordinates. Perhaps the new system of recruitment by which candidates will have to go through such a severe training before they join, will make they operation of this proposal largely unnecessary, but people can, if they are misfits, do an awful lot of harm in comparatively junior posts, and after all they are often left as heads of Missions whit, the Ambassador or Minister is away. Therefore, I think that it is wiser and better for the Service and often kinder the man himself, to terminate his career on pension, when necessary, as soon as the axe allows and not to wait until he is practically head of a Mission. I apologize for having kept your Lordships for rather long on a complex subject. I beg to move for Papers.
2.59 P.m.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, when I first read this Motion on the Order Paper to-day, I rather feared that it might overlap with a Motion which I hope to bring before your Lordships' House later in the month, but after talking to the noble Earl who moved this Motion and above all after listening to his speech, I am quite clear that the apprehensions which I cherished were founded. My Motion is to deal with Foreign Office affairs—or may I call it the control of foreign affairs on the very highest Ministerial level?—and no proposals have yet been put before Parliament on that particular problem. On the other hand, the Motion which we have before us deals, as the noble Earl pointed out, purely with the official side of the Foreign Office, and concerns questions which have already been discussed in your Lordships' House, and to which your Lordships have given your formal approval.
With your permission, there is one word I should like to say about my own Motion before I proceed to deal with the one in front of us today. It may be possible that that Motion will not appear on the Order Paper on the day for which it is at present put down. I would like to assure noble Lords who have given me sc much support in the past, and who promise continued support in the future, that, if there is any postponement, it will not mean, in any way, that I have abandoned the cause, or thrown in my hand. It will be simply because it is plainly
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desirable that the Government should have a little further time for the examination of this very important problem. After all, the Foreign Secretary, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the President of the Board of Trade, and the Prime Minister have all been strictly occupied since the new Government came into office, and I do not think it would be proper to press them overmuch. At the same time, I hope the Government will realize that this is a question of really cardinal importance, and that they will not, if there is a postponement, fail to examine it without undue delay.
I would now turn to the Motion which is before your Lordships' House. Before saying anything on its substance, I should like—and I think your Lordships would wish—to congratulate the noble Earl who has brought it forward, because I understand this is the first time he has addressed your Lordships' House.
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: I am afraid that is not so. I addressed your Lordships' House 32 years ago.
THE EARL OF PERTH: I think we ought to he grateful, anyhow, to the noble Earl for bringing this Motion forward. What he has asked for, in effect, is a progress report on reforms which, we have been assured, have already been introduced. It is quite right that we should be told what has been happening, particularly as there are rumours from outside that there is a considerable delay in putting these reforms into effect. Therefore, I fully support the noble Earl in his request for a report of that kind. I would remind your Lordships that the former Foreign Secretary told us that most of the reforms outlined in the Command Paper would be effected by administrative action.
There are two additional headings on which I should like to ask the noble and learned Lord who sits on the Woolsack for information. I indicated the two points previously, and I hope His Majesty's Government may be able to tell us something about them. The first concerns the economic set-up of the Foreign Office. Towards the end of last year we were told by the representatives of the Government that an Economic Department, together with a Foreign Economic Intelligence Branch, or Department, was to be established in the Foreign Office. The Foreign Intelligence Depart-

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ment was largely staffed by officers from the Ministry of Economic Warfare, the Ministry in which the noble Earl who raised the question played such a distinguished and successful part.
I would ask the noble and learned Lord whether those economic departments of the Foreign Office are now working efficiently and effectively, and whether it has been found desirable, and possible, to add to the staff officers from the Treasury, the Board of Trade, and also from outside experts. I ask this because I doubt whether without additions of that kind the economic side of the Foreign Officers really adequate for the very important task which it has to discharge. It is certainly true that before the war economic and foreign policies were very closely interwoven; but today they are inextricably united, and, therefore, it is essential, to my mind, that there should be an economic branch of the Foreign Office which can authoritatively advise the Foreign Secretary as to the impact on foreign policy of economic events abroad, and also advise him as to the impact, again on foreign affairs, of proposals made by Government Departments here at home. That is my first point.
I now come to the second point—namely, that of publicity abroad. I know there is a small and very efficient Press Department in the Foreign Office, and I presume that we shall have Press Attaches attached to our various Embassies and Ministries in the capitals of the world. So far, that is all to the good, but I would like to ask what is the position of the British Council. This is a body which has a budget of something over £3,000,000 a year. It is quite true that not all of that money is spent on work in foreign countries, but a very consider, able proportion of it is so spent, and I would like to ask whether there is adequate Foreign Office supervision over the objects and aims of the Council, and whether there is proper co-ordination.
There is another point: there are the activities of the Ministry of Information, as far as they concern foreign countries. Not very long ago, the former Minister of Information told us, or, at any rate, implied, that his Department was going to be wound up, and that the part of it which dealt with foreign countries would pass
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under the control of the Foreign Office, and that some of the staff would go with the work. No doubt—and I rather gather that is so, from what has passed in another place—the Government have not definitely made up their minds on this point. It may well be that they will find there are certain vested interests which stand in the way. Vested interests created in favour of civil servants are a most formidable obstacle to overcome. Nevertheless, members of this Government have declared that they are not going, to allow vested interests to stand in the way of reform, and I therefore suggest they should take their courage in both hands and make this transfer. It is conducive both to economy and to efficiency.
Now I come to my last point, and that is with regard to broadcasts to foreign countries from the B.B.C. We all realize how intently and eagerly those broadcasts were listened to during the war and what a wonderful asset they were to us and to our fight for freedom. Is it really proposed that those broadcasts should be discontinued? I hold very strongly that we ought not to throw away those advantages, and that the broadcasts should go on under the control of the Foreign Office. I have studied very carefully the speech which the noble and learned Lord who sits on the Woolsack made the other day with regard to controls, and the conclusion that I came to was that it might fairly be said that the noble and learned Lord was slightly enamoured of controls. Well, here is an opportunity to give his affections full rein. I suggest that he might and should persuade his colleagues in the Government not only that those broadcasts should continue but that the control which this time is in the national interests should also continue and even be strengthened.
3.13 p.m.
VISCOUNT SIMON: My Lords, I intend to intervene for a few moments only, and especially for the purpose of concentrating attention on the questions put by the noble Earl who initiated this discussion. He formulates his questions by asking what progress has been made in implementing suggestions for the reform of the Foreign Service, and, as he reminded us, he is referring principally to the White Paper which was issued in 1943, which was itself the basis of discussion extend-

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ing, I think, over two days in this House. What I wanted briefly to point out was that, as is so often and so usefully the case, that discussion went rather wider than the White Paper, and it became evident that of these posed reforms some would be brought about by administrative action—by the decision of the responsible Minister or the Cabinet of the day that certain changes should be made. I think that would be so as regards the method of choice of new members of the Service. I do not imagine that would be based on legislation.
On the other hand, another portion of the then proposed reforms could only be effected by passing legislation; and legislation was passed, because the House may remember that, on the Motion of my noble friend Viscount Cranborne, in 1943, there was in due course carried through this House and placed on the Statute Book the Foreign Service Act. That Act, if I recollect rightly, though I have not a copy before me at the moment, was principally concerned with authorizing a very necessary change—a change that would make it possible for a Foreign Secretary to provide for the retirement of a member of the Service before he reached the age of sixty, notwithstanding that he was not entitled to a pension on the ground of ill-health, but providing for such a person's retirement on an appropriate pension in cases where it was felt that, though he had rendered good service, he had not displayed the qualities which would make it probable that he would reach the highest ranks in the Service. That required a Statute, and that Statute was passed. But of course, as my noble friend the Lord Chancellor will at once recognize, it provided only that the Foreign Secretary should be empowered to do this; it did not say he must do it or in what cases he should do it. It I could supplement, to that extent, the questions put by the noble Earl who first spoke, I think it would be interesting to know whether the powers conferred in 1943 have been used. Naturally I do riot ask for the names of individuals, but have those powers been used and in how many cases have they been used? That would be a very good indication of how far the very carefully thought out scheme, which this House in the war years very warmly approved, had really been put into effect or was in course of being put into effect.
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I would also like to ask, if it is not inconvenient to answer it, what progress has been made in that branch of the changes which does not require legislative action at all. You do not, I think, need an Act of Parliament to alter the conditions under which young—I was going to say young men, but perhaps I should say young men and possibly young women, may be appointed to the Foreign Office service. That is a matter of adjustment, but not necessarily by direct legislation. How far have we got in that regard? There were very serious proposals—proposals which at any rate for the time being gave the go-by to a most severe examination and, to a large extent, if I remember rightly, would have admitted candidates to become members of the Foreign Service before they had shown that command in foreign languages which has hitherto been a very striking mark of the qualified Foreign Office servant. There are a great many of us who flatter ourselves, or flatter one another, that we speak French very well indeed; but the standards which, are attained by those who really enter the Foreign Office Service are most distinctly higher than these convenient, though possibly not always very accurate, conversational acquirements.
It will be interesting to me to know how far we have already entered upon any new scheme of that sort, which has great practical advantages from some points of view. That again is putting, perhaps with more precision, the question which, I think, was involved in the noble Earl's speech and which certainly is stated in his question. I have no desire to say anything in the way of criticism or opinion, but I do think this is an occasion, fortunately provided by the noble Earl, on which we may fairly expect to get a definite answer as to what in fact has been done either in pursuance of statutory powers or otherwise in this most important matter.
3.22 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD JOWITT): My Lords, I am sure that all of us who have listened to this debate will be grateful to the noble Earl who raised this Motion, not only for raising it but for the tone and temper in which fie raised it. I am glad to have an opportunity of telling your Lordships how far

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we have got in this matter. I agree with my noble friend Lord Perth that we are not discussing to-day in any shape or form questions of the formulation of foreign policy. That is a wholly different topic, a topic which perhaps relates to the problem of machinery of government. On an appropriate occasion, when there has been time to consider that matter, that in itself will form the subject of an interesting but wholly separate debate. To-day we are discussing the question of the Foreign Service.
Let me at the outset give this specific answer to the noble Lord who raised this Motion. His Majesty's Government adopt the proposals which were outlined in the White Paper of 1943 and adopt them without any important modification whatsoever. That, I think, will be satisfactory to the noble Earl. Having said that, your Lordships will want me to give you some account of the progress we have made in rather difficult times—difficult because, of course, we have had a very serious shortage of experienced staff and also a shortage of accommodation. I will deal with that presently. The 1943 reforms had two aspects, the long-term aspect and the short-term aspect. We realized, of course (and the White Paper realized) that at the end of the war we should find a Foreign Office seriously understaffed as a result of non-recruitment through the war years, and at the same time facing a heavily increased burden of responsibility, The short-term aspect of the proposal was designed to enable the Foreign Office to face that situation as well organized and as well equipped as the circumstances of the case allowed. The long-term aspect related to the more distant future when normal recruitment was open, when competitive examination would be resumed. It was stated in the White Paper that the full effect of the reforms so far as recruitment and training were concerned could not be felt for some years. It was laid down, however, in the White Paper that one of the main reforms—namely, the amalgamation of the Foreign Office, the Commercial Diplomatic Service and the Consular Service—should be put into effect immediately; and further (and this will appeal to some of your Lordships) that the new unified Foreign Service should be—and I quote the words of the White Paper—" entirely separated from
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the Home Civil Service "and" be treated as a self-contained and distinct service of the Crown."
Both those proposals have now become accomplished facts. Amalgamation is now as complete as the present conditions of work allow. Let me give an illustration. Of the 120 members of the senior branch of the Foreign Service employed in the Foreign Office, one half were formerly members of the Consular branch and the other half members of the Diplomatic Service. There arc, of course, limitations upon the extent to which amalgamation can be applied to the existing members of the Foreign Office, particularly in the case of those senior officers who have spent perhaps twenty or thirty years in the Consular Service, or in work in the Foreign Office, or with Diplomatic Missions abroad. It is only in the long-term aspect, that is when the older generation has passed away, that the full effect of the amalgamation will be felt. For the time being it can only, for the most part, apply to the younger members of the former separate branches and to the new entries from the reconstruction examinations. I can, however, inform your Lordships that the principle underlying amalgamation is being faithfully followed; that is to say, to pick the best man available for the job irrespective of the branch of the Service which he originally joined. To assist the process of amalgamation and to remove even the basis of the former division into separate branches, combined Foreign Service Regulations, which will supersede the various regulations formerly applicable to the separate branches, have been drafted and are now in the final stages of discussion with the Treasury.
Now I come to recruitment. The arrangements outlined in the White Paper for recruitment during the reconstruction period have now been put into effect and the results of the first examination have just been declared by the Civil Service Commissioners. I am glad to say that we are fully satisfied with the standard of the candidates declared successful. Some twenty young men are now about to join the Service as a result of that examination and in the course of the next three years we hope to get some 200 more. Owing to the situation now facing the depleted Foreign Service—a position which might be described as desperate and which is most certainly unprecedented—the help

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which these new recruits can bring to sorely-tried posts abroad is so eagerly awaited and so urgently needed that we cannot afford to give the men more than a brief period of preliminary training. This training will include a course of lectures on the Foreign Service and its work and a special short intensive course in the French language for those who need it. However, if recent candidates are any guide, these now entrants will already hay a very good knowledge of at least one foreign language.
The noble Earl referred to the six months' study of economic, industrial and social questions which will be undertaken by candidates who qualify for the Service during their year's probationary period in this country. He suggested that six months might not be long enough for that purpose As I have just mentioned, it has not been possible to give the recent new entrants more than a very brief period of training, but I can assure the noble Earl that the more lengthy period will be put into effect as soon as the Foreign Service has been brought up to strength through the reconstruction examinations, and by the resumption of recruitment by open competition. We have to gain experience of the six months training period before considering any extension of it. I agree it is a very short time, but these young men have very much to learn and a comparatively short time in which to learn it. I sympathize with him when he says he thinks it desirable that a good deal of the time should be spent out of London and in unofficial rather than official circles. That idea will certainly be sympathetically considered. We shall learn by experience in these matters, but I think his suggestion has much to commend it.
We want, further, to enable members of the Foreign Service to make renewed contacts with this country from time to time more frequently. There has, therefore, been introduced a system of what are called refresher visits. Officers from all posts, from Embassies to Vice-Consulates, are by this system able to return to this country to see what they like; for instance, to take tours around ports or factories or to study some particular problem in which they are interested, such as labour conditions, housing, hydro-electric schemes, education Officers from agricultural regions have been able to visit
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experimental farms and see for themselves what is being done. I should like to say how grateful the Foreign Office are to the Ministry of Information, who have arranged tours for this and kindred purposes.
Finally we organized short summer courses, both last year and this year, to enable officers who were visiting this country on leave to meet together and to discuss under expert guidance such subjects as Commonwealth affairs, domestic reconstruction and international trade. We are indebted to the authorities of the colleges at Oxford, where the courses were held, and to the very distinguished speakers who gave their time and thought to leading the discussions. I hope that the noble Earl will agree that this scheme will go some way to meet his point that members of the Foreign Service should be given the opportunity, at intervals throughout their career, to maintain and improve their knowledge of home conditions. He also suggested that posts abroad should be sufficiently well staffed to enable members of the Service to spend more time in travel and in studying the countries to which they go, and less time tied to their desks. I entirely agree, and we hope to reach that position as soon as ever we can; that is to say, as soon as the present depleted Service has been reinforced. The White Paper further describes a scheme for incorporating the subordinate ranks in the regular Foreign Service, and we have made very satisfactory progress on that. I shall not trouble your Lordships with the details, unless you want to hear them.
I now come to superannuation. It is the fact, as the noble and learned Viscount; Lord Simon, said, that under the Act of 1943 the Secretary of State is empowered to place on retirement with a pension certain officers who prove unsuitable for the highest posts. He asked me whether that power had been acted upon, of course not asking me to mention names. I can tell him that it has been acted upon six times; six officers have been retired in accordance with the provisions of the Act. I agree that it would be wrong merely to retire people who have reached almost the top of the tree at the end of their career, and we have no intention of limiting our powers in that way. At any time in the course of an officer's career, if it appears that he is not fitted for this

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particular Service, we shall not hesitate to apply the powers under the Act.
I turn next to the question of financial grants and allowances payable to officers of the Foreign Service on transfer and during tours of duty in the Foreign Office. The White Paper asserted, as I think is obvious, that Foreign Service officers posted to London should not, if they are to do their work properly, be obliged through lack of means to cut themselves off from contact with foreign representatives or from those wider contacts which are necessary if they are to be effective representatives of this country when they go abroad again. It is plainly necessary that such persons should be able to live on their emoluments once they-are in the Service, whether abroad or at home. The question of home service allowances is now being discussed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I have every reason for hoping that arrangements will be reached which will enable the Foreign Service officer who possesses no private means to regard a transfer to the Foreign Office as a welcome opportunity to renew contact with his homeland and to maintain his effectiveness as an interpreter of British ideas abroad, without subjecting him to financial difficulties and stringency.
As the noble Earl has said, it is the fact that we have already appointed an additional Under-Secretary of State to relieve the Permanent Under-Secretary of administrative and non-political work. We have also created a Personnel Department. We hope to be able to make further administrative improvements when the Departments principally concerned with the administration of the Foreign Service are housed together in one building, which will be the former German Embassy. At the present time the question of accommodation is one of the very greatest difficulty for the Foreign Office. That Office to-day has necessarily a vast communications staff working all round the clock, ciphering and deciphering and distributing telegrams. I asked how many documents the Archives Department deals with in an average week, and I was told that I should be safe in saying well over 10,000. The Foreign Office has completely outgrown the building erected to house it some eighty years ago, and now occupies no fewer than nineteen different buildings
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in London alone. It is remarkable that, notwithstanding the difficulties which come from that dispersal, and from the very acute shortage of what I may term "professional staff," the Foreign Office gas been able to discharge its main task with efficiency and dispatch, and at the same time it has been able, as I hope that I have satisfied your Lordships, to press on with these reforms which will lead to the creation of a first-rate Foreign Service.
The noble Earl, Lord Perth, asked me about the various Departments. I am told that the Intelligence Department has been set up, staffed very largely with officers formerly employed by the Ministry of Economic Warfare. The Economic Department is in process of being formed. The extent to which the British Council or, indeed, the Ministry of Information and their services shall be integrated with the work of the Foreign Office has not yet been finally determined, but those problems are under consideration, and the observations which the noble Earl made will certainly be borne in mind.
He referred also to broadcasts. I seem to have left him under the impression that I was in favour of controls. Let me say that I always feel that if we are "gunning" at controls as being unpleasant things, we are gunning at the wrong enemy. The real enemy is shortages. In the abstract, I suppose that we all dislike prisons; but, after all, prisons are necessary so long as there are malefactors. The real thing to aim at is the malefactor, not the prison. I feel that so long as shortages exist, controls are necessary; but directly shortages go, nobody will be more pleased than myself to be able to buy what I like where I like, and from whom I like, and to be able to buy socks which reach some considerable distance above my foot! That, however, is by the way. The noble Earl asked me about these broadcasts. I did not know that he was going to ask that, or I should have got myself instructed with the proper answer. I entirely agree with him that it would be a lamentable thing if some similar service to the wonderful series of broadcasts which we had throughout the war were not to continue in the clays to come. With regard to the admission of women, that has been mentioned, and I may add that, as your Lordships probably know, a Committee has been set up to

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consider the matter. When it has reported, no doubt the Foreign Secretary will turn his attention to the subject.
There it is. We have in the past been proud, and have had every reason to be proud, of the work which our Foreign Service has done for us, but that is not to say that it cannot be improved, and we intend to do what we can to improve it. We want to make it a service which can be staffed by and recruited from all, sections of society. We want to have a Service in which a man, once he enters it, can earn sufficient emoluments to live in a suitable position on his pay. We want to be able to see that he is instructed not merely in diplomacy and foreign affairs and languages, but also in those hundred-and-one problems of economics labour, housing and so on which must enter into the life of the diplomatist, and a knowledge of which is required to enable him to play his full part in the service of his country. I hope I have been able to satisfy the noble Earl that we are very anxious to carry out these proposals in the White Paper. There is no sort of political difference between us on this matter at all, and, as soon as we have got over the difficulties of shortage of staff and lack of accommodation, we shall be able to carry on still further on the lines on which we have proceeded so satisfactorily so far.
THE EARL OF DROGHEDA: My Lords, I am very much obliged indeed to the noble and learned Lord who sits on the Woolsack for his replies to my numerous questions, and for the way in which he received the suggestions I made. I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

GAS MASKS.
3.41 p.m.
LORD REA: My Lords, I beg to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether they will state when they expect to be able to reach a decision regarding the disposal of gas masks: whether, in the meantime, there is still a liability to penalties for lack of care in maintaining them, and, it so, what these penalties are.]
LORD WALKDEN: My Lords, His Majesty's Government hope to be in a position before long to reach a decision regarding the disposal of civilian respirators. The numbers issued to the public are so considerable—they run into many millions—that their mere collection and storage involve a very considerable use of man-power, transport and storage space. Moreover, there is no immediate shortage of the component material for re-manufacture. Until a decision is reached His Majesty's Government rely upon the good sense and patriotism of all citizens to take care of the respirators issued to them until facilities become available for their orderly conservation or disposal.
As regards the second part of the noble Lord's question, under Section 67 of the Civil Defence Act, 1939, the property or any equipment provided on behalf of His Majestry under the Act of 1937, free of charge, remains with His Majesty. Any person who fails to use reasonable care for the preservation of a respirator so provided is, accordingly, liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £5. But His Majesty's Government prefer to believe that the requests already made to the public by Ministers and in the Press to keep their gas masks safe and free from damage, entailing, as individual custody does, a negligible or relatively small sacrifice on the part of the community, will render it unnecessary to contemplate taking proceedings for the imposition of penalties.
LORD REA: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord for his answer. I would like to ask if we are to understand that a small child who has lost his gas-mask is liable to a penalty of £5.
LORD WALKDEN: Technically, I suppose that is so, but actually, I think, the small child would be excused.

REPAIR OF CONDEMNED COTTAGES.
3.43 P.m.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government whether, in view of the shortage of cottage accommodation throughout the country, they will consider the desirability of amending the law so as to enable local authori-

751
ties to waive or rescind a demolition order made prior to the war, where a cottage subject thereto can be rendered habitable to their satisfaction at a reasonable cost, but its reconditioning or repair is not at present contemplated in face of the prospect of the enforcement of such an order; and to move for Papers.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, before proceeding to submit my Motion to your Lordships, I would venture to say that the rural problem in all its aspects—economic, domestic and social—is, at the present time, a very serious one, and, in my humble judgment, nothing but a combined or communal effort of all the interests genuinely concerned with rural welfare will effect real and lasting improvement and restore the feeling of confident security which has been notoriously absent from the British countryside for at least a generation. This leads me to say that so long as the Government provide the incentive to all the three classes of the agricultural community to pull their full weight in effecting a renaissance of rural Britain, I can promise, for my part, and I think I can promise also on behalf of those with whom I normally work in this House—leading members of the Central Landowners' Association, and the Royal Agricultural Society of England—that no hostile criticism will flow from our Benches and that we will endeavour to be, so far as we can, constructive in our criticism.
I would remind your Lordships that what I ask of the Government today is this: what is to be the fate of the large number of cottages in rural areas which, prior to the war, were condemned by the local housing authorities—that is the rural district councils—as being unfit for human habitation? Circumstances have very considerably changed since 1939, when the then Government issued their decree in regard to these condemned cottages. The shortage of cottages in the countryside has enormously increased, and is today a very serious factor in relation to the re-establishment of healthy conditions in rural England. If I may be a little more specific, I would remind your Lordships that in cases where demolition or clearance orders have been made under the Housing Acts and have become operative, the provisions of these orders cannot be waived or rescinded—however anxious the
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local authorities who have made them may be to cancel or modify them—without statutory authority, which, of course, Parliament, in spite of changed conditions, has not yet given.
Prior to the outbreak of war the Council for the Preservation of Rural England—I happen, myself, to be President of the Gloucestershire branch—made repeated representations to the Ministry of Health regarding the difficulties and hardships resulting from the demolition procedure under the Housing Act of 1938. The Central Housing Advisory Committee of the Ministry of Health appointed a special sub-committee to investigate the matter. Their report was published in 1939. The late Lord Crawford, well-known for his interest in art and particularly, perhaps, in buildings of historic interest or exceptional architectural beauty, was a member of that sub-committee. The Minister of Health accepted the recommendations of the report but did not consider himself justified in making provision for rescinding demolition orders in cases where satisfactory reconditioning has subsequently been found possible.
I may say, in passing, that the seriousness of the condition of many of these houses that were condemned as unfit for human occupation, on the representations of the surveyor or the engineer of the local rural district council, was actually unknown to the owners, and in many cases it was not known what would happen to these properties in the event of the owners not having the means to carry out as soon as possible, if not immediately, the necessary reconditioning. The Minister, as I say, accepted the recommendations of this report, but would not go so far as the Council for the Preservation of Rural England hoped that he would go. In spite of the acute shortage of houses created or intensified by the war, there has been no change in the situation, except that demolition has been suspended during the war because of the necessity of providing accommodation for evacuees and to meet other war-time requirements.
The Ministry of Health has taken the view, which most local authorities share, that it would be a retrograde step to encourage the indefinite perpetuation of houses found to be unfit for human habitation and incapable of being brought up to a proper standard at a reasonable cost.
Owing to the acute housing shortage, which has become now even more acute by the return of many thousands of men of our Fighting Forces, it will be necessary to allow many condemned houses to remain occupied for a time. It will be the aim of the Government, we are told, to make that period as short as possible. This, however, only constitutes a temporary reprieve and in no way alters the legal status of those houses as condemned houses which must be pulled down as soon as the necessary replacement accommodation can be provided. My submission is that conditions are now, and will continue for a long time, to conic to be, very different from those prevailing prior to the outbreak of war, and if houses which have been condemned and are subject to an operative demolition order are found now on inspection by a competent authority—a competent health or sanitary authority—to be capable of being reconditioned, and 1:hc owners or the local authorities are pre-pat ed to see that this is done effectually powers should surely be given to the local authority for that purpose.
In making this statement I have the support not only of the Council for the Preservation of Rural England but also other Rural District Councils' Association. I should like to mention the following fact out of my own experience. Only it July last in my own county (as in other counties) there was a conference of housing authorities held at the Shire Hall, Gloucester, to consider this urgent rural housing problem. That conference was a tended by representatives of the county conned and of all the rural district councils in the county. The terms of this Motion were received by them without any supporting comment. They unanimously passed a resolution in favour of this Motion and asked that they should be given a second chance, or in other words that they should be given by statutory authority the opportunity of revising their decision in regard to the condemnation of those houses which took place prior to the war, assuming reconditioning to have been effectively carried out, that sanitation and health had due consideration and that money was available to carry out the required alterations.
On December 12, 1944, when rural housing was under debate in another place, the then Parliamentary Secretary
754
to the Ministry of Health, Miss Horsbrugh, in the course of a long speech, said:
"It has been suggested that a number of rural cottages in rural areas have been made subject to demolition or clearance orders but which could properly have been dealt with under the scheme for reconditioning. In some cases I believe that substantial works, alleged to have made the cottage fit for habitation, have been carried out since the order was made. There is no power under the present Housing Acts to rescind the order but the existence and the occupation of houses which had been condemned before the war have been preserved by Defence Regulations. These continue in existence and will no doubt. continune for some time. There is, therefore, no question of any likelihood of demolition in the near future, and in view of the shortage of houses there will be ample opportunity for considering those cases where it is suggested that, since the demolition order was made, such large-scale works of reconstruction have been carried out as to make the house now fit for habitation. A change in the legal status of the house could only he effected by legislation."
That is the change I am asking His Majesty's Government to make now.
"While this possibility will be examined—and whether legislation will be possible or what form it will take I cannot say—I must point out that the position was examined before the war and was then found to be fraught with many difficulties. In any case, there is no prospect of immediate demolition of the cottages and there is time to go into the matter."
My comment on that is that there is no incentive whatever to an owner, or indeed a local authority, to carry out the necessary reconditioning of those cottages so long as the sword of Damocles hangs over their head and the cottages remain doomed to demolition.
I am bound to refer, of course, to another Act in this connexion—the Housing (Rural Workers) Act of 1936. Under that Act a Government grant of up to £100 is available—I think through the medium of the county councils—where reasonable reconditioning can be effected. I will comment on that presently because apparently that particular Act is not going to be re-enacted by the present Government. The difficulty is that no owner or local authority is going to spend £500 or more on reconditioning a cottage even if, as in the past, the owner does receive a grant from the county council under this Act, with the consciousness that an operative demolition order may in the early future become effective. Many leading architects have expressed the view that where there are four strong, damp-resisting outside walls and

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a sound roof, in existing circumstances it is nothing short of a crime to demolish houses which can be made reasonably fit for human habitation, especially where the site is dry, sanitation and water supply are satisfactory, and there is a good garden. This applies particularly where two or more adjacent cottages under one roof can be thrown into one cottage or where the house has been condemned—and this is the case in a good many cases—owing to the ground floor being beneath the level of the outside ground and it is practicable to lower the latter by excavation.
I understand that the Government have decided not to re-enact the Housing (Rural Workers) Act. Mr. Aneurin Bevan, the Minister of Health, speaking in another place on October 17, said in that connexion that the reason why the Government did not want at this stage to re-enact the Housing (Rural Workers) Act was that they wanted to know first of all how the demobilized building workers would dispose themselves over the countryside. He said he was not against the Act and that, later on, he hoped to give the House a better Act. He wanted, first of all, to canalize all the available rural labour to build new houses. Later on, when they could see how the problem developed, he hoped to come to Parliament to ask for An Act to enable cottages to be reconditioned, because, in any case, many of these cottages which were being reconditioned, ought to be preserved. I think I am entitled to ask whether this contemplated Bill will be retrospective, and will cover reconsideration of the case of the pre-war sentences of death on reconditionable cottages. The Minister went on to say that many of these cottages had 'great architectural value; it would be a -disaster if they fell into ruin. Their facades, their exteriors, were often quite charming, and ought to be preserved. The interiors, of course, would have to be brought up to date.
That, in effect, is the whole of the case I have to submit, to put it quite shortly, but I have just received a letter from one of the leading architects, certainly the leading authority on rural architecture in the country, a very eminent F.R.I.B.A., in which he emphasizes three points. The first is that decisions as to whether cottages should
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be condemned, and as to whether cottages are capable of economic restoration, should not be left to the surveyors of rural district councils. These useful public servants, usually, have not the specialized knowledge and training required. He goes on to say that the acute housing shortage and the high cost of building make it all the more important to preserve and improve old cottages. Cottages which he would have condemned before the war as being too expensive to repair can now be reconditioned at a price which compares favourably with the cost of building new cottages. Unfortunately, the very people who have the necessary knowledge to deal with reconditioning—his kind, the domestic architects, who have specialized in restoration—have, in the past, been too busy with the better-paid work of making luxury houses for the well-to-do to bother with cottage restoration, with its poor financial reward. He said that, perhaps, now that luxury homes will be taboo for some years, the domestic specialist will take a hand in the all-important work of preserving old cottages.
I have no more to say in this connexion, except that I venture to hope that, with very strong pressure from both experts and housing authorities, the present Government will see their way to reconsidering this question and will, at an early date, either introduce a one-clause Bill restoring the discretion of local housing authorities in regard to demolition, or will introduce into the now promised Housing Bill a clause which would carry out this purpose. I beg to move.
4.5 p.m.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: My Lords, the Motion which my noble friend, has just moved is a very tempting one, on which hangs a much larger question, the drastic and terrible urgency of the problem of rural housing, but at this late hour it cannot be discussed. On the general subject of rural housing, I hope there may be a Motion in your Lordships' House on which the whole subject can be raised, and gone into thoroughly, in the near future. But, however modest my noble friend's Motion is, it is, at the same time, one of very widespread importance, for we cannot afford to overlook the slightest thing that can help the

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rural housing position to-day. In the countryside, at this moment, we are faced with the problem of losing, probably, 100,000 and more workers in the course of the next year or eighteen months, who had previously worked on the land without occupying cottages. Therefore, even if there are only one or two cottages of the sort my noble friend has mentioned in every village, they, none the less, constitute ate an item which we cannot afford to overlook. I know that there may be a very reasonable argument in saying that even if we give a guarantee, or His Majesty's Government give a guarantee, that condemned cottages, put into good condition, should remain for twenty, fifteen or ten years, the problems of the shortage of labour to-day are such that the labour would be better occupied in building new cottages. I do not think that that necessarily holds. District councils, who, in the main, will be charged with building new houses under the present plan, and the local authorities, will naturally employ the larger builder. The small country builder will have some materials, probably, and will have some labour returning to him. The estate yard material and labour, where the land is owned by a landlord, can also supply the labour and material in a small way, to do these cottages piecemeal, and, therefore, I do not think there would be a clash between the urgent demand for labour to build new rural houses and the demand for reconditioning.
There is another point which I think is of very great importance. The more old houses that are done away with in the village, the more difficult it is to do needed repairs on non-condemned cottages existing in the village. I can give an example from memory of a village which consists of twenty-five old cottages, most of them perfectly habitable, with perhaps two condemned. Of the twenty-three that are not condemned, people, in future, will not live in these cottages unless they are enlarged or unless two small but reasonable cottages are made into one, or unless bathrooms, sanitation, and drains are put in chimneys are rebuilt. While that is going on, the inhabitants of these cottage is cannot occupy them. They must be moved, and there must be a reservoir of cottages in which to put people, temporarily while they are being given better houses. I think that is a most important
758
point, and one which is very often overlooked. There must be that reservoir, and if the condemned cottage did no more than remain in a habitable condition for people to occupy while their houses were put in order, that would be a valuable contribution to rural housing. I beg to support my noble friend's Motion.
4.9 p.m.
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, before the noble Lord replies to the case which has been put before your Lordships' House, I should like to support the Motion which the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, moved rather more fully than I feel is really necessary under present conditions. What the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, and the noble Earl, Lord Portsmouth, have said, really covers the ground thoroughly, but I should like to add my voice to the plea that this opportunity should not be lost by His Majesty's present advisers, and that the suggestion put forward by the noble Viscount, with regard to those cottages condemned before the war—that the demolition order should be capable of revision—should be considered. I do not think that it is the least necessary for me to enlarge, in your Lordships' House, on the appalling conditions that obtain in many villages with regard to the cottages and the accommodation available. If it were, one could go on for a very long time, both from one's personal experience and also from one's knowledge of other parts of the country. It is a matter of the most urgent importance that in the big scheme which His Majesty's Government have in regard to building, this small but yet not immaterial point, should not be lost sight of. I beg to support the noble Viscount's Motion.
4.10 p.m.
LORD METHUEN: My Lords, I do not wish to detain you, except for just a short moment, by adding to what the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, has said on this matter. I should rather like to advocate that something be done on the lines suggested, on purely æsthetic grounds. The beauty of this country is made up of, and depends very largely on, its cottages and its small houses. If you pull them down in any large quantity, you are going to change very much the nature of the beauty of this country—beauty which has been painted by Gains-borough and other lovers of it. I do

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suggest that it would be far more profitable and, I think, logical, to rescind an order and prevent the demolition of these cottages, provided they can be, and will be, brought up to date. It is not a very difficult matter to bring them up to date. There is a very good little book, published quite recently, probably by the architect referred to just now, in which he has shown, beyond any doubt at all, that it is easy to raise the ceiling of a cottage by excavation from a ground floor or by raising it from the upper floor. In other words, if you wish to increase the cubic capacity or the height of a cottage it is not at all a difficult matter, and I think a great deal more opportunity should be given to the landlords to enable them to put these cottages in order.
Another matter, even more urgent, is to encourage local authorities to bring their side of the problem up to date by bringing sewerage systems to hamlets. We, as landlords, on the whole do the best we can for these cottages, so as to preserve the amenities of the country, but we cannot do much in the matter of sewerage, drainage and so on. That is a matter for the local authorities. We can grapple with light, gas, water, and so on, but we cannot do much in this other regard. When you talk about modernizing cottages I think mostly you mean getting the sanitary arrangements up to date, and I do advocate that local authorities be given every encouragement in that direction. There is another little point I should like to mention. A lot of structures—some people call them rabbit hutches—were put up during the war as temporary structures. I do not think it is fair, if we can possibly avoid it, to ask people to go on living in them any longer than is absolutely necessary. The sooner objects of that sort are replaced the better. It is far more urgent, in my opinion, to encourage building alongside these rabbit hutches and to move the people into the new dwellings as soon as possible. Let us have something decent for people to live in. I warmly support this Motion.
4.14 p.m.
THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I should like to start off by thanking the noble Viscount opposite for his prefatory remarks. He said that he and his associates
760
in this House and the Central Landowners' Association would indulge only in constructive criticism of the Government's policy for the countryside, and that the tone of that criticism would not be hostile or destructive. I can assure him that the Government will always welcome that type of criticism, and that we appreciate the offer of a partnership, if I may so term it, which can only redound to the good of those who live on the land. I should like, if I might, before I proceed to the pith of the noble Viscount's questions, to reply to a question he raised in the course of his speech, although it does not arise directly out of the terms of his Motion. He was asking the Government about the Housing (Rural Workers) Acts which have now been allowed to lapse. Now the question of these Acts has been referred to the Rural Housing Advisory Committee of the Central Housing Advisory Committee of the Ministry of Health, and my right honourable friend the Minister of Health is awaiting the recommendations of his Committee before he decides about the form of future legislation.
I can assure the noble Viscount and those noble Lords who have supported him in the course of the debate, that His Majesty's Government do share to the full his dissatisfaction and their dissatisfaction with present housing conditions in rural areas, and his and their desire that we shall do everything possible to assist local housing authorities to discharge their responsibility for the provision of decent homes for the population of the country-side. I am sure that his intimate knowledge of life in the country and the sense of urgency he and others have communicated to the problem of rural housing, will have given useful guidance and a healthy stimulus to public opinion. But the question of how to legislate so as to give the local authorities the best instruments for their task is one, as I am sure he will agree, that needs most careful consideration. I am certain that the noble Viscount will not expect any decision from His Majesty's Government this afternoon about his proposed amendment of the housing code, as the specific alteration in the law he wants has been referred, with other suggestions for alteration, to the housing experts of the sub-committee of the Central Housing Advisory Committee. This sub-committee is now dealing with the matter without any unneces-

761
sary delay, and will consider, at a meeting to be held later in the month—I be live it is on the 22nd—the suggestion made by the noble Viscount this afternoon, and my right honourable friend the Minister of Health is anxious to awaits views before he arrives at a final decision and communicates that decision to Parliament.
The noble Viscount's proposal that a new power should be conferred upon local authorities to revoke or rescind a demolition order would, if adopted, have important and far-reaching consequences affecting our whole housing policy and programme for town and country alike. It is just possible that my noble friend has not himself foreseen all the consequences of such a change in the law, or the many difficulties to which it would inevitably give rise. I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to some of the difficulties inherent in this proposed change so that the House may have a fair picture of the drawbacks as well as of the advantages of the scheme and thus he placed in a position to decide whether on balance it is as desirable as the noble Viscount ha; claimed.
This suggestion is not, of course, a new one; it has been made on several occasions between the wars but has been invariably rejected by the Government of the day. For example, the granting of a power to rescind demolition orders was considered by the Rural Housing Sub Committee of the Central Housing Advisory Committee in their Second Report published in 1937. The Sub-Committee then reported their view—and here, my Lords, I shall quote—
"There would be, it seems to us, the gravest objection to the reopening of the question after the period allowed for an appeal to the County Court has expired. In certain casts proposals may have had to be abandoned owing to the existence of the demolition order but the majority of the members of the Sub-Committee feel that the disadvantages likely to attend any alteration of the law relating to this matter far outweigh any advantage: which might be gained in the few instances in which this position may be expected to arise. Vie accordingly do not recommend any change in the present procedure other than that recommended in the following paragraph."
The "following paragraph" deals with the temporary suspension of the execution of demolition orders on houses occupied by very old people, so that those old people may continue to live in their old home until the end of their days.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: May I ask the noble Earl what is the date of that Report?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: 1937. I can give the noble Viscount the month, but I should have to refer to the Report to do so.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: May I ask whether the noble Earl has taken cognizance of a subsequent Report of the same body dated 1939?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: Yes, my Lords. I only give yon one example of the evidence which has led the Government to reject this proposal in the past. The main reason for this reluctance to change the law was the knowledge that unless a demolition order was made irrevocable the slum conditions that public authorities and all those concerned with the countryside have been trying to uproot would continue indefinitely, for if there were no limit to the number of appeals that the owner of a slum property could lodge against the decision of a local housing authority to demolish, such a person could put up a whole series of unsatisfactory proposals which would enable him, while they were being considered, to go on receiving rent from an investment which would otherwise have become a dead loss. Experience between the wars has shown convincingly that so long as a house unfit for human habitation is left standing it is extremely difficult, on account of its relative cheapness in relation to other accommodation, to stop tenants from going in even when there is no actual shortage of accommodation in the district.
The perpetuation of slum conditions would be the first and most unfortunate accompaniment of a general power conferred on local authorities to revoke any demolition order. I need hardly remind your Lordships that the speedy clearance of the slums has been a cardinal principle in the housing policy of every Government since the 1920s. I think the noble Viscount's intention—I hope he will correct me if I misinterpret him—was to limit the use of this new power to rural housing authorities, but the terms of his Motion, as it now stands, would extend its application to urban authorities as well. Another regrettable consequence of reconditioning cottages already scheduled as unfit for human habitation would be the

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diversion of a considerable quantity of building labour and materials from the construction of houses. The policy of His Majesty's Government is to build new cottages in the villages with up-to-date conveniences and labour-saving devices and not to patch up insanitary hovels which would at best be wretched substitutes for modern buildings.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: Perhaps the noble Lord will allow me to interrupt. There is nothing that any decent agricultural landowner would deprecate more than encouraging slums in the rural areas. We have never for a moment suggested anything of the sort. As the matter appears now, according to the noble Earl, to be sub judice, I should not like anything that is now said by him to influence this judicial body from coming to a perfectly impartial decision, in regard to buildings which in the view not merely of the housing authorities but the Ministry of Health can be rendered perfectly fit and habitable for present-day workers in the countryside. One thing I deprecate more than anything else is this suggestion that we sympathize with the continuance of slums in the countryside.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I am afraid the noble Viscount has misunderstood what I have said. I do not for a moment suggest that the noble Viscount, or any of his friends, is other than anxious to do away with these slum conditions. I did suggest that he might not have foreseen some of the legal consequences of the alteration in the law which he advocates. I am merely trying to describe its consequences in full because I think that without such a full description it is impossible for your Lordships to decide on the merits of the case. I do not think it can be fairly argued—it was not argued by the noble Viscount but it is an argument that has been used—that under existing law the owner of a slum property is not given a fair chance to do essential repairs at a reasonable cost. A local authority is required to give such a person notice that his property has been listed as unfit for human habitation, and to suggest an early meeting at which he can submit an offer to do the work necessary to put the property in good order or, alternatively, to agree to leave it vacant. If he fails to take advantage of that opportunity—he is given ample
764
time—and the local authority issues a demolition order in respect of his property, he still has twenty-one days in which to appeal to the County Court against the order. This procedure really does give any owner who is willing and able to do the necessary repairs a full opportunity of making his property habitable. If any public grounds for not carrying a demolition order into effect can be adduced by the owner of a dilapidated property, my right honourable friend the Minister of Health has shown that he is prepared to give them full consideration.
I hope that what I say now will appeal particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Methuen, who has made such an eloquent plea for the preservation of the amenities of the countryside. My right honourable friend the Minister of Health has had his attention directed by the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings to the risk of the demolition of old houses of historical or architectural interest. It has now been arranged with the Ministry of Town and Country Planning that if a demolition order has been made but not yet carried into effect on such a building, when the Minister of Town and Country Planning takes the view that it is one which he would otherwise have listed under the recent Town and Country Planning Act of 1944, a very special procedure shall be followed in the hope of saving it from destruction. If the owner or anyone else is prepared to do whatever may he necessary to make the house fit for habitation or to use it for some purpose other than working-class housing, the Minister of Health will approach the local housing authority concerned and suggest to them that they should not enforce the order. I hope this will be good news to those of your Lordships who support the Council for the Preservation of Rural England or the Georgian Group of the Society for the Preservation of Ancient Monuments. I hope that such noble Lords and those who sympathize with them will be gratified that this action has been taken.
LORD METHUEN: May I say that that is very good news?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: I can assure your Lordships that we are as anxious as anyone to do whatever we can to save what remains of our architectural heritage, It is, of course, as several noble Lords have pointed out, unfortunately true that,

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under present conditions, many unfit houses will have to go on being occupied for a considerable time, both in cases where demolition orders had already been made before the war and in other cases where cottages have reached an advanced state of dilapidation since war broke out. But it is one thing to recognize and admit this unfortunate fact and quite another to amend the permanent law housing in a way which will perpetuate housing standards that neither the public nor the Government can accept. While it is not possible for the Government to give a final decision until the view of the Central Housing Advisory Committee has been expressed—and the matter, as I pointed out to the noble Viscount, is being dealt with by them without delay—I would say new that far stronger reasons than any which have so far been adduced would be needed to justify so drastic a change as the noble Viscount contemplates in his Motion.
4.32 p.m.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: My Lords, I cannot pretend to be either enthusiastic or convinced as a result of listening to the noble Earl. I do not know whether I must understand from him, as I thought that I did, that this matter is under re-consideration by a new body set up by the Ministry of Health; hut, if it is, and if the whole problem is now being considered, I venture to hope that some evidence will be admissible by that Committee to emphasize the arguments which I have attempted to present this afternoon, especially bearing in mind that the whole of the conditions have altered since that period before the war when the Report, part of which the noble Earl read, was drawn up, and bearing in mind also that documents of a much more promising character and at a later date—1939—including very particularly the Report of the Demolition Procedure Sub-Committee of the Central Advisory Housing Committee, have been promulgated since.
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My main point, which I want to leave in the minds of the noble Earl and other members of the Government, is this: what incentive have owners of these reconditionable properties to-day to do anything to render them fit for human habitation? As I have pointed out, the Rural District Councils' Association and, in the county which I know best, all the rural district councils as housing authorities, have asked that this decision should be reconsidered. Surely there should be a more favourable response to an appeal such as that. In asking leave to withdraw my Motion for Papers I do so because, apparently, the matter is still sub judice, and a different decision may still be come to. I will complete my appeal by saying that I believe that leading architects strongly support the view that some of these buildings, which were hastily doomed before the war, should now be reconditioned, not in the interests of the landowners—I do not believe that they will derive any financial advantage whatever from such a scheme—but in the interests of the rural workers, whom they want to see provided with homes, and who include a large number of men now demobilized, who want to find homes in the country but cannot do so, though there are buildings which could be made perfectly fit for them. I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

ADJOURNMENT.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, in moving that this House do now adjourn, I ask permission to remind your Lordships of the announcement at the beginning of our proceedings—namely, that we meet tomorrow at half past two o'clock. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House do now adjourn.—(Lord Amnion).
On Question, Motion agreed to
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before five o'clock.