Sitting of 6 March 1945

Preamble
The House met at Eleven o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

INDIA (CIVIL SERVICE, ETC.)
THE VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSE HOLD (Major A. S. L. YOUNG) reported His Majesty's Answer to the Address, as followeth:
I have received your Address praying that the Government of India (Family Pensions Funds) (Amendment) Order, 1945, be made in the form of the draft laid before Parliament.
I will comply with your request.

INDIA (GOVERNORS' ALLOWANCES AND PRIVILEGES)
THE VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSE HOLD reported His Majesty's Answer to the Address, as followeth:
I have received your Address praying that the Government of India (Governors' Allowances and Privileges) (Amendment) Order, 1945, be made in the form of the draft laid before Parliament.
I will comply with your request.

GREAT BRITAIN AND RUSSIA (EXCHANGE OF GREETINGS)
Mr. Speaker: I beg to inform the House that I have received the following Message from Russia, partly in answer to a letter which I sent when the Parliamentary Delegation went out there, and, which, for the convenience of hon. Members, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I will now read the Message I have received from Russia:
1st February, 1945.
To The Speaker of the House of Commons.
Colonel D. Clifton Brown.
We extend cordial greetings to you and, through you, to the Members of the House of Commons.
We fully share the conviction to which you have given expression that the further and comprehensive development of the Anglo-Soviet Alliance by strengthening friendly relations and mutual understanding between our peoples, constitutes a firm basis for the successful achievement of the high aims which our countries have set themselves in this war—the utter defeat of Germany and the safeguarding of a stable and lasting international peace for the future.
We hope that the visit of Members of the Commons in the British Parliamentary Delegation, which afforded them an opportunity to become closely acquainted with the feelings and aspirations of the peoples and Government of the Soviet Union at the decisive stage of our common struggle against the German aggressor, will contribute towards the strengthening of friendly relations between our peoples and the achieving of still closer co-operation between them, both during and after the war.
(Signed) N. ANDREEV,
Chairman of the Council of the Union.
(Signed) N. SHVERNIK,
Chairman of the Council of Nationalities.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
Following is Mr. Speaker's letter:
January 9th, 1945.
The Speaker of the House of Commons sends his cordial greetings to the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the U.S.S.R. on the occasion of the visit to be paid to the Soviet Union by Members of the House of Commons with the Parliamentary Delegation. Members of the House of Commons have followed with profound admiration and gratitude the historic part played by the Soviet peoples and their representatives and leaders in beating back and overthrowing the barbarous forces of aggression and they warmly welcome the Anglo-Soviet Alliance which has grown out of this common struggle. The Speaker wishes to assure the Presidium of the great pleasure which it gives the House of Commons that this visit should be made and he feels that it will do much to strengthen still further the bonds which unite the British and Soviet peoples, and to foster the interest which each must increasingly feel in the institutions of the other. The Anglo-Soviet Treaty and the comradeship between our peoples which has been

1797
forged during the war forms a firm basis not only for achieving final and complete victory together but also for building a just and enduring peace for the future.
(Signed) D. CLIFTON BROWN,
Speaker.

PRIVATE BILLS

  (STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY IN QUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH)
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table,—Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bills, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
  Manchester Ship Canal Bill.
  Wisbech Water Bill.
  Bills committed.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  BRITISH ARMY

    Tanks
    Mr. Stokesasked the Secretary of State for War (1) the calibre of the gun mounted on the German Royal Tiger tank together with the weight of its projectile;
    (2) which British tank in action mounts a gun equal in calibre and weight of shot to the German 88 mm. gun mounted on the Royal Tiger tank;
    (3) the front armour, size of gun and weight of shell used in the biggest Russian tank, together with the total weight thereof; and whether there is a British tank at least equal in gun power and armour.
    The Secretary of State for War (Sir James Grigg): I gave the hon. Member the particulars he asks for about the Royal Tiger in the reply I gave him on 16th January. It would clearly not be in the public interest to give details of British and Allied weapons being used against the enemy.
    Mr. Stokes: Is it not a fact that we have nothing at all equal to the gun on the Royal Tiger that is capable of piercing
    1798
    5½in. of armour at 2,000 yards, and that the Russians already have a tank with a 5-inch gun on it?
    Sir J. Grigg: The hon. Member is giving information, but as he said I did not give him the details about the Royal Tiger, this is my answer to the Question he asked on January 16th as to the calibre of the gun and the weight of the projectile:
    "We have not yet received the complete details of the King Tiger. I understand, however, that it carries an 88 mm. gun firing a projectile weighing 22.4 lbs. …" [OFFICIAL REPORT; 16th January, 1945; Vol, 407, c. 17.]
    Mr. Shinwell: Is it not true that in spite of our limitations, we seem to be doing very well on the Western Front?
    Sir J. Grigg: I was under that impression; the only evidence to the contrary is from the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes).
    General Sir George Jeffreys: Can the right hon. Gentleman say, approximately, how many of these German Tiger tanks have been knocked out by our armoured fighting vehicles and anti-tank guns, and how do they compare in manœuvrability?
    Sir J. Grigg: I will see if I can get figures about the first part of the question. With regard to manœuvrability, which I regard as a much more important quality than mere size, there is no comparison.
    Mr. Stokes: Arising out of the Minister's second reply, is he aware that I have a letter in my hand dated 6th February from soldiers at the front complaining that there is absolutely nothing among our armour equal to the Tiger?
    Sir J. Grigg: I will, on the appropriate occasion, which will arise fairly soon, produce the authoritative opinion of the soldiers about the comparison of the British and German tanks.
    Sir Joseph Lamb: Would it be possible for one of these tanks to be placed in the tea room for the benefit of the hon. Member?

    Mail Deliveries
    Mr. Tinkerasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware of the anxiety caused by letters being returned to relatives of serving soldiers overseas because the unit has moved on and the address to where they have gone is not

    1799
    known, so the letters fail to reach them; and what steps are taken to ensure the correspondence reaching its destination.
    Sir J. Grigg: My hon. Friend will be aware of the great difficulties there are in forwarding mail to men who go into hospital or change their units, but very extensive arrangements have been made to meet these difficulties. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for forwarding to me two letters which have been returned to sender. Enquiries are being made to establish whether they could reasonably have been reposted to reach the addressee.
    Mr. Tinker: I have asked this Question only to draw attention to the matter, so that people will know we are watching this sort of thing and endeavouring to put it right.

    Accident, Helmsley Camp
    Mr. Viantasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to make a statement as to the report of the inquiry he promised to make into the conditions at Helmsley Camp where six men were killed in their beds by falling trees.
    Sir J. Grigg: Five men lost their lives as a result of this tragic accident and I take this opportunity to express my sympathy with their relatives. The accident was due to a storm and no one was to blame. As I said in my answer to my hon. Friend on 6th February, there is always some such risk when a camp is situated among trees. It is impossible at this stage of the war to rebuild the camp elsewhere or to move the men. But a number of trees have already been felled and felling will continue.
    Mr. Viant: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is not an isolated incident? Numerous trees have fallen there and it does not need much investigation to know that they are old elm trees.
    Sir J. Grigg: My information is that the last incident, which did not result in any deaths, was in 1942.

    Glider Pilot Regiment (Officers)
    Sir G. Jeffreysasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that in the Glider Pilot Regiment Army officers draw field allowance whilst R.A.F. officers serving in the same camp cannot draw it;
    1800
    that Army and R.A.F. Glider Pilots of equal ranks and doing similar work, are paid at different rates; that a commander of a Glider Pilot unit has no powers of punishment over N.C.O.'s of his unit, if these belong to the other service; and whether he will cause these and other anomalies due to the mixing of personnel of the two services in Gider Pilot units to be regularised as early as possible.
    Sir J. Grigg: As I said in my reply to my hon. and gallant Friend on 6th February, the Glider Pilot Regiment is part of the Army but for operational reasons R.A.F. officers and men have been attached to it. This may well be only a temporary arrangement, and, in these circumstances there are almost bound to be some discrepancies between the conditions under which the officers and men of the Army and the R.A.F. are serving in the Regiment. But, as a matter of fact, I understand that the rates and conditions under which field allowance is issuable to R.A.F. officers are the same as for Army officers and that whenever N.C.O.'s of the R.A.F. and airmen are ordered to serve with a Glider Pilot unit, the commander of that unit is empowered to punish them as if they were Army N.C.O.'s or soldiers.
    Sir G. Jeffreys: Is my right hon. Gentleman aware that these are not minor administrative difficulties, but are in fact quite considerable difficulties? Is he aware that any officer commanding a unit of mixed personnel will certainly not consider them minor difficulties?
    Sir J. Grigg: I think an officer commanding such a unit might be in a position to inform himself authoritatively of his powers. He certainly ought to know where to go for information as to his powers if he does not already know them.

    B.L.A. (Postal Orders)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for War if men serving in the B.L.A. are able to buy postal orders for the purpose of making small purchases by mail from home.
    Sir J. Grigg: Yes, Sir. Men serving in the B.L.A. are able to buy postal orders at Army post offices and Field post offices.
    Mr. Driberg: Is there any lower limit to the amount of postal orders?
    Sir J. Grigg: I do not know. There is an upper limit in the ordinary Treasury Regulations and there is a Regulation in 21 Army Group prohibiting bulk purchase of postal orders which might be used to further black market operations.
    Mr. Driberg: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one man who wanted a postal order for 3s. 6d. was told that he could not buy one for less than£1?
    Sir J. Grigg: Perhaps the hon. Member will give me a specific instance. It is a very small matter and the Regulations are quite clear.

    Barrack-Room Damage (Pay Deduction)
    Mr. Bowlesasked the Secretary of State for War why on 23rd February, 1945, every N.C.O. and private in a certain battalion which a fortnight earlier had removed from Clacton to Felixstowe had 2s. deducted from his pay for barrack-room damage at Clacton; and why this punishment was inflicted on men who had never been to Clacton owing to absence in hospital, etc.
    Sir J. Grigg: Inquiries are being made into this incident about which I had not previously heard.

    Demobilisation (Allied Army Service)
    Mr. G. Straussasked the Secretary of State for War whether in those exceptional cases where a man served in an allied army prior to joining the British Army, his period of service in the allied army will be taken into account for purposes of demobilisation.
    Sir J. Grigg: I am afraid not.
    Mr. Strauss: Will the right hon. Gentleman give some reason? It is unfair to these men who have done two or three years' fighting who, through no fault of their own, were not able to join the British Army before, that their previous service with an Allied Army should not count.
    Sir J. Grigg: I do not think the case has any merits whatever.
    Mr. Strauss: I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Urgent Personal Messages
    Licut.-Colonel Wickhamasked the Secretary of State for War by what means next-of-kin can send urgent communications to officers and men of the B.L.A.
    Sir J. Grigg: Next-of-kin may communicate about urgent private affairs by telegrams which are sent by Army channels used for operational traffic. In this connection, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply I gave my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Darwen (Captain Prescott) on 13th February.
    Lieut.-Colonel Wickham: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, at present, anyone wishing to send an urgent communication to an officer or man of the B.L.A. must first apply in writing, either to the War Office or to the record office concerned?
    Sir J. Grigg: As these telegrams have to go by operational channels, some means of limiting the number of really urgent cases must be found. In any case the postal service, which I believe all goes by air to the B.L.A., is now so quick that there is no real advantage in sending these urgent telegrams at all.

    First Canadian Army (British Units)
    Captain Sidneyasked the Secretary of State for War whether he can announce the composition of the Canadian First Army now engaged in operations against the enemy.
    Sir J. Grigg: I regret that I cannot give my hon. and gallant Friend the full composition of the First Canadian Army now engaged in operations against the enemy, as such information would be of the greatest value to the enemy at the present time while the battle is still in progress. As my hon. and gallant Friend is no doubt aware, the strength and composition of an Army vary with the tasks assigned to it. He has, no doubt, seen in the Press mention of some United Kingdom units which are fighting as part of this Army. United Kingdom troops in fact form two-thirds of the First Canadian Army at the present time.
    Captain Sidney: Is it a fact that some three weeks ago there appeared in the Canadian Press a statement to the effect that the British contingent formed some 75 per cent. of the First Canadian Army?
    Sir J. Grigg: There is not a vast deal of difference between two-thirds and three-quarters. In any case, the composition of the Army varies from time to time.
    Mr. Woodburn: Could my right hon. Friend make clear to the public whether there is a British First Army or whether the Canadian First Army is the British First Army?

  BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR

    Released Prisoners, Odessa
    Sir Henry Morris-Jonesasked the Secretary of State for War whether he has any further information in regard to our prisoners of war in German territory occupied by our Russian Ally.
    Sir J. Grigg: The arrival of 14 officers and 464 other ranks at the transit camp at Odessa has been reported by our Military Mission in Moscow; the names of those arriving are now being received and next-of-kin are being informed as soon as possible. Perhaps I could interpolate that about half of the names have arrived so far. We have otherwise received no further information about British Commonwealth prisoners liberated by the Red Army since the reply I gave a number of hon. Members last Tuesday. I should like to take this opportunity to inform the House that the British Red Cross War Organisation sent supplies to Russia some time ago and these are now being called forward for our men. Supplies have also recently been sent to Odessa.
    Sir H. Morris-Jones: Can my right hon. Friend give an idea of the total number of prisoners of war released by Russia as people in this country seem disappointed at the small number and the lack of news?
    Sir J. Grigg: Beyond the answers I have given already, the only authentic numbers I have are these: 14 officers and 464 other ranks. These have arrived in Odessa. As to others, various stories have been received but are not immediately verifiable. I will certainly give all the information I receive, but my hon. Friend will be aware that I have given answers in the House from time to time showing that the Germans have been very hastily and very inconsiderately removing numbers of our prisoners further back into Germany.
    Mr. Silverman: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has yet had an opportunity to complete the inquiries he promised into the allegations that the Germans are segregating Jewish prisoners
    1804
    of war from other prisoners of war, and in view of the grave anxiety caused by the report, can he expedite the inquiry?
    Sir J. Grigg: I think it was last week my hon. Friend asked me this Question. Those inquiries can only be made through the Protecting Power, and it is a matter of many weeks before those inquiries can mature in information. I am afraid I can only say that it is no good expecting an early answer.

    Ill-treatment, Bulgaria
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton Pownallasked the Secretary of State for War if he is now in a position to say what is the result of his inquiries with regard to the alleged ill-treatment of British prisoners of war in Bulgaria.
    Sir J. Grigg: According to such information as I have the position is as follows. Prior to the signature of the armistice there were between 30 and 40 British prisoners of war in Bulgaria. They were placed in camps with Americans, who far outnumbered them. I regret to say that some of our prisoners were put to death; it is not known how many but the number is certainly under 10. Enquiries are still being made. The physical conditions under which all our prisoners lived were entirely unsatisfactory. Their food was inadequate and the treatment they received was rigorous and on occasion brutal. I understand that the commandant and two officers of one prisoner of war camp have been arrested and confined. The commandant of another committed suicide while he was waiting to be interrogated. Twenty-three Bulgarian officers and other ranks are in close arrest and 19 in open arrest for their share of the responsibility for this ill-treatment. British ex-prisoners of war who have passed through Bulgaria since the signature of the armistice report, however, that they have been treated satisfactorily.
    Sir A. Pownall: Will my right hon. Friend take steps to see, when these inquiries are complete, that those found guilty shall be appropriately dealt with by the British authorities?
    Sir J. Grigg: That raises the whole question of the machinery for dealing with war criminals. I should not like to answer it without notice.

    Repatriated Wounded and Sick (Civilian Necessities)
    Miss Wardasked o the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction of repatriated wounded or sick prisoners who find the arrangements made to provide them with civilian necessities while at home are much too slow to operate; and will he try and improve matters.
    Sir J. Grigg: Repatriated wounded and sick prisoners of war are sent on leave to their homes as soon as they are fit to go. Detailed instructions have been issued to enable them to obtain rations, handkerchiefs and privileged priced cigarettes and tobacco. Arrangements are also made for them to be placed on the Service Register as electors. I have not heard of complaints about the present arrangements.
    Miss Ward: Is my right hon. Friend aware that complaints have been made, and will he speed up action by the Government Departments concerned?
    Sir J. Grigg: To the best of my belief action has been speeded up and the arrangements are in force. If, instead of general complaints of unsatisfactory conditions, the hon. Lady will give me something specific to investigate, I will certainly do it.

    Post-War Training and Employment
    Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for War whether Government plans for post-war training and employment are communicated to prisoners of war in Germany and Japan.
    Sir J. Grigg: No, Sir, but arrangements have been made for information about the plans for post-war training and employment to be given to all prisoners of war as soon as possible after their liberation from German hands. Similar arrangements will be made for prisoners now in Japanese hands.
    Mr. Keeling: Why cannot these Regulations, which would be of great interest to prisoners of war, be sent out?
    Sir J. Grigg: Most of the prisoners of war are travelling up and down Germany in extremely uncomfortable conditions. Also, to send these regulations in any large numbers would clog up the arrangements for prisoners getting mail, and so would not be very much to their liking.
    Mr. Keeling: Could not one copy be sent to the senior officer of each existing camp?

    WAR GRAVES (GARDENERS)
    Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for War what proportion of the gardeners of the Imperial War Graves Commission, employed up to 1940 in France and Belgium, have now been given permission to return to their duties and families in those countries.
    Sir J. Grigg: Of 343 gardeners available for re-employment by the Commission, 70 have so far resumed their duties in France and Belgium.
    Mr. Keeling: Does my right hon. Friend expect to send the others back soon?
    Sir J. Grigg: I cannot say. "Soon" is not a precise term. It will certainly be as soon as we can.

  BUILDING INDUSTRY

    Technicians
    Mr. Bossomasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is still retaining the several hundred architects, engineers and other members of the building industry who were employed in the construction of Mulberry, or is he making them available for supervisory work or to prepare schemes for post-war housing.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. John Wilmot): I have been asked to reply. As the hon. Member will be aware this great work was carried out by a large number of co-operating contractors who employed their own technicians. No architects and only about a dozen engineers and other technicians were directly employed by the Ministry of Supply. One or two remain to clear up certain outstanding matters.
    Mr. Bossom: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are something like 300 architects, engineers and quantity surveyors, who are in very short supply, who would be able to do the preliminary work, if necessary, for about 100,000 building trade operatives when the war ends?
    Mr. Wilmot: They are not being held by the Ministry of Supply.
    Mr. Bossom: My Question was put down to the Secretary of State for War.
    Sir J. Grigg: The War Office is not having any of these people either.

    Factory Rebuilding (Labour)
    Mr. Jewsonasked the Minister of Works whether he is satisfied that an adequate percentage of the building labour available is being allocated to the rebuilding of factories.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Hicks): The many urgent demands for building labour greatly exceed the labour available, and I am satisfied that as large a percentage of the labour force as can reasonably be apportioned at present has been allocated to factory building.

    JUDGE-ADVOCATE GENERAL (DUTIES)
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Secretary of State for War if he will indicate the duties and responsibilities of the Judge-Advocate General.
    Sir J. Grigg: His Majesty's Judge-Advocate General, who is appointed on the recommendation of the Secretaries of State for War and Air, and holds his office under Letters Patent from the Crown, superintends the administration of military and air force law in the British Army and Royal Air Force respectively at home and abroad. This includes similar duties in relation to the Royal Marines when subject to military law, and to the Auxiliary Territorial Service and the Women's Auxiliary Air Force.
    Sir T. Moore: Is this official a military officer or a civil servant?
    Sir J. Grigg: I would not like to answer that conundrum offhand. He is appointed, as I say, under Letters Patent, on the recommendation of the Secretaries of State for War and Air.
    Captain McEwen: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this officer may be three in one; and is there any evidence to show that he is any one of the three?
    Sir J. Grigg: Perhaps I may state that I have been reading Gibbon again, and there has been a great deal of trouble about the nature of the Trinity in the history of our planet.
    Sir Herbert Williams: As the W.R.N.S. come under the Naval Discipline Act, does the Judge-Advocate General deal with them?
    Sir J. Grigg: If they were excepted from my list, the answer is "No." My hon. Friend might ask the First Lord of the Admiralty.

  GREECE (RELIEF SUPPLIES)
  Mr. Edmund Harveyasked the Secretary of State for War, whether, in view of the urgent need for food in Greece, arrangements are being made to expedite the sending and distribution of relief at once without waiting until 1st April when the operations under U.N.R.R.A. will officially come into force.
  Sir J. Grigg: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for East Hull (Mr. Muff) on 31st January. The distribution of supplies has continued and is being extended to new areas as soon as communications can be restored. From the outset U.N.R.R.A. has participated in the distribution of supplies as agent of the military authorities. Arrangements are being made to hand over the responsibility for the provision and distribution of supplies to U.N.R.R.A. as soon as possible, but I cannot now say when it will be.

  SCOTLAND

    Hydro-Electric Constructional Scheme (Inquiry)
    Mr. McKinlayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will place a copy of the minutes of evidence taken at the inquiry into Constructional Scheme No. 1 of the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board on 27th to 30th December, 1944 and 3rd and 4th January, 1945, inclusive, in the Library for the perusal of Members.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. T. Johnston): Yes, Sir. A copy of the evidence is being placed in the Library to-day.

    Voluntary and Emergency Hospitals
    Mr. Hubbardasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many cases have now been transferred from the lists

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    of Scottish voluntary hospitals and treated under the emergency hospitals scheme; and what are the financial arrangements with the voluntary hospitals for treatment of such cases.
    Mr. Johnston: Under a scheme which I arranged with the Scottish Branch of the British Hospitals Association in January, 1941, 32,250 patients from the waiting lists of voluntary hospitals in Scotland have been treated in emergency hospitals set up by the Department of Health for Scotland. For this service an overall charge of 30s. per case, irrespective of the length of stay, is made against the voluntary hospital. I might add that the scheme has had a considerable effect in reducing the waiting lists and has been of immense benefit to thousands of patients.

    Death and injury rates per 100,000 manshifts worked, and 100,000 tons of mineral raised at mines under the Coal Mines Act (excluding the Stratified Ironstone Mines in Cleveland, Lincoln and Northamptonshire) in Great Britain during the years 1937·1944.

    Rate per 100,000 manshifts worked.

    Rate per 100,000 tons of mineral† raised.

    Fatal.

    Non-fatal.

    Fatal.

    Non-fatal.

    1937

    …

    …

    0·40

    65·25

    0·35

    57·10

    1938

    …

    …

    0·41

    63·60

    0·37

    56·69

    1939

    …

    …

    0·37

    63·34

    0·33

    56·63

    1940

    …

    …

    0·43

    69·05

    0·40

    63·73

    1941

    …

    …

    0·46

    79·18

    0·44

    74·89

    1942

    …

    …

    0·43

    82·30

    0·42

    79·78

    1943

    …

    …

    0·36

    88·12

    0·35

    87·05

    1944

    …

    …

    0·33*

    Not yet available

    0·32†

    Not yet available

    * Provisional.

    † Almost entirely coal.

    Flooded Mines (Pumping Schemes)
    Mr. Rhys Daviesasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he is aware that the number of mines winding coal in this country decreased from 2,919 in 1900 to about 1,695 in 1944, and that some of them were closed because separate colliery companies failed to agree on co-operative pumping schemes to prevent flooding; and is he satisfied that he has sufficient legal powers to prevent that happening in future.
    Mr. T. Smith: I am aware that a number of pits have been closed through trouble with water, and it may well be that

  COAL INDUSTRY

    Accidents
    Mr. Collindridgeasked the Minister of Fuel and Power the rate of accidents, fatal and non-fatal, in the mining industry in each of the last seven years in relation to man-shifts worked and 100,000 tons of coal got, respectively.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Tom Smith): As the answer involves a number of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Collindridge: Could my hon. Friend say whether there is an improvement in those figures as compared with seven years ago?
    Mr. Smith: Yes, Sir; I think the tendency is for the fatal accident rate to decrease, but unfortunately the non-fatal accidents rather tend to increase.
    Following is the information:
    in some cases the necessity for closing would have been obviated had a joint pumping scheme been in operation. The existing powers to set up joint drainage schemes, which are contained in Section 18 of the Mining Industry Act, 1920, require in practice that an effective majority of the colliery undertakings concerned should be in favour of the scheme. How far it may be necessary or desirable to amend the existing law is a matter which will require to be considered in the light of the reports of the Survey Committees in the various Regions, and of the Advisory Committee on the Technique of Coal Production.
    Mr. Davies: Has my hon. Friend noticed that nearly as many coalmines have been closed in the last 45 years as there are remaining in operation at present, and could he see whether there is not some legal power somewhere to prevent colliery companies quarrelling among themselves in future and closing good pits because they refuse to join co-operative pumping schemes, leaving thereby large areas derelict?
    Mr. Smith: I am well aware that many pits have been closed and why some of them were closed, but I cannot go into it at Question Time.
    Mr. Davies: Is my hon. Friend aware that practically all colliery owners who are quarrelling with one another in this connection are Conservatives?

    Technical Committee (Report)
    Miss Wardasked the Minister of Fuel and Power on what date the Report of the Technical Committee advising him on coal production is to be available.
    Mr. T. Smith: My right hon. Friend expects to receive this report very shortly.

    American Mission (Report)
    Miss Wardasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he has submitted the American Mission's Report on the British coalfields to the Technical Committee advising him on coal production, with a view to their considering the recommendations contained therein.
    Mr. T. Smith: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which my right hon. and gallant Friend gave on the 12th December last to a question by the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Mr. Morgan).
    Miss Ward: In view of the fact that the report cannot be published because the evidence was given in secret, could my hon. Friend say on what authority the miners' evidence was disclosed to the coal-owners through the medium of this report?
    Mr. Smith: The position has been made clear on more than one occasion, and I told the hon. Member a few days ago that the report was submitted in confidence to the Technical Committee so that they could have the benefit of the evidence which is in the report.
    Miss Ward: The hon. Gentleman has misunderstood the purport of my supplementary question. On what authority was the miners' evidence, which was given to the Commission in secret, disclosed to the Technical Committee, which consists of coalowners' representatives?
    Mr. Smith: I am afraid that I cannot answer that offhand.

    Directed Mineworkers, Rotherham (Hostel)
    Mr. Dobbieasked the Minister of Fuel and Power the cost incurred in the erection of the miners' hostel at Rotherham; the total accommodation of same; the number accommodated in it at the moment; the highest number who at any given time have been accommodated; and the number of youths who have been directed to the mines in the district.
    Mr. T. Smith: The cost of erecting the hostel is expected to be about £74,000; it was planned to provide accommodation for 350, but after building had started the sleeping accommodation was reduced to 200. Owing to the unexpectedly large proportion of men allocated for coal-mining employment in the Rotherham area, who either live in the neighbourhood of collieries or have found lodgings for themselves, it has not yet been necessary to open the hostel, but if the flow of men directed to Government training centres continues at the present rate, it may be necessary to do so shortly. As regards the last part of the Question, the number of men directed to mines in the Rotherham area is about 320.
    Mr. Dobbie: In view of the shortage of housing and the terrible overcrowding in the district, may I ask the Minister to expedite the opening of this hostel as much as possible?
    Mr. Smith: I will certainly convey that information back.

    Injured Miners (Compensation)
    Mr. Collindridgeasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will give the average weekly compensation paid to injured adult mineworkers.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Home Security (Miss Ellen Wilkinson): I regret that the information is not available.

    Miners (Military Service)
    The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Mr. COLLIN DRIDGE:
    64. To ask the Minister of Labour why he allows miners who may, by reason of illness or industrial disease, have to leave the mining industry for short periods, later to be called up for military service, instead of being returned to the mining industry.
    Mr. Collindridge: May I ask your guidance on this Question, Mr. Speaker? I submitted it to the Ministry of Fuel and Power, which had entertained it for months in discussions and correspondence. This transfer has taken place without any notification to me.
    Mr. Speaker: I cannot dictate to Ministers who shall reply to a Question. It is for the appropriate Minister to reply.
    Mr. Collindridge: In this case the Ministry of Fuel and Power have entertained the matter by discussion and correspondence, and it was to that Department that the Question was submitted.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Tomlinson): Miners are not called up for military service merely because they may have been absent from work for a short time on account of illness or industrial disease. Such action is taken only when my right hon. Friend is satisfied, on the medical evidence available, that a return to coal-mining would be detrimental to the worker's health or that he is likely to be permanently unfit for that work. Our officers consult the appropriate officers of the Ministry of Fuel and Power on all these cases.
    Mr. Collindridge: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a few weeks ago a miner was taken from opencast work and spent five months in the Army, and was then allowed to return to the mining industry, and that I have had particulars of a similar case sent to me this morning? Is he aware that we are losing miners, who are spending time and effort being trained in the Army, and are finally sent back to the mines?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I think that it was admitted, in the first case to which my hon. Friend refers, that a mistake was
    1814
    made. If a mistake has been made again, and if he sends me particulars, it will be rectified.

  ELECTRICITY SUPPLY

    Post-war Production
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what action is being taken to bring about a great increase in the supply of electric power as soon as possible on the termination of hostilities; and have steps been taken to increase to its utmost the productive capacity of power plant production for home consumption and for export.
    Mr. T. Smith: I regret that I have nothing to add to the reply which my right hon. and gallant Friend gave to my hon. Friend on 20th February.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Does my hon. Friend agree that post-war industrial efficiency will depend on the availability of large supplies of electric power at as cheap a rate as possible, and, if so, what action is being taken to plan to bring that about?
    Mr. T. Smith: I can give an assurance to my hon. Friend that all is being done that can be done to see that existing capacity is sufficiently worked and that extra capacity is extended as quickly as possible.
    Sir H. Williams: Is not my hon. Friend sorry now that the Central Electricity Board cancelled such a lot of plant a few years ago?

    Equipment (Advance Orders)
    Mr. Higgsasked the Minister of Fuel and Power on what authority the Electricity Commissioners have authorised undertakings to purchase electrical equipment for post-war requirements from specified areas such as Scotland, the Northeast coast and South Wales.
    Mr. T. Smith: I presume my hon. Friend is referring to a letter sent by the Electricity Commission to all authorised electricity undertakers on 1st February. The purpose of this letter is, I think, clear from the following extract:
    "It would be of the greatest assistance in maintaining employment at the highest possible level on the conclusion of hostilities, or as and when war contracts are terminated, if undertakers could now proceed to place advance orders."

    1815
    The letter, which goes on to point to areas from which it is believed that reasonable delivery is most likely, was sent with the approval of the Treasury, the Board of Trade, and my Ministry.
    Mr. Higgs: Is my hon. Friend not aware that these are not the main producing centres of electrical equipment? Does he intend to direct this industry into those new areas?
    Mr. T. Smith: The letter sent out made it clear, I think, what the purpose was. I believe my hon. Friend will agree that one cannot maintain full employment after hostilities unless some planning is carried out.
    Mr. James Griffiths: Would not the Minister agree that it is far better to direct industries to go where people live and have established their homes, than to drive people from their homes?

  SEVERN BARRAGE SCHEME
  Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he can now make a statement on the Report on the Severn Barrage Scheme; and if he will ask the committee or appoint others to investigate the practicability of preparing similar schemes for the Rivers Conway, Dee and Mersey and for harnessing the tides at Morecambe and the Solway.
  Mr. T. Smith: My right hon. Friend is not yet in a position to make a statement on the report on the Severn Barrage Scheme which is under active consideration. With regard to the latter part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to my right hon. Friend's answer to his question on 3rd October last.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: Seeing that it has taken over 10 years to produce a report on the Severn, has not the time arrived when further investigation should be made into the practicability of harnessing the rivers mentioned in the Question?
  Mr. T. Smith: I can assure my hon. Friend that the Severn Barrage Scheme is being actively considered at the moment, and the extra powers which are being asked for are also under consideration.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    New Industries
    Mr. Andersonasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he has considered the Report recently issued by Mr. Devereaux regarding the development of West Cumberland and which has since been adopted by the Cumberland Development Council; and will he state the steps taken to implement the Report;
    (2) how many new industries have been established in the development area of West Cumberland since the announcement of the Government's full employment policy; how many have been found employment; how many industrialists have agreed to promote new industries within the development area and the potential employment figures; and what types of industries are definitely promised.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Dalton): This report, together with much other material bearing on this subject, has been carefully examined by my Department. A number of projects are on foot for the development of existing industries, and the introduction of new industries, in West Cumberland. Some of these are now in course of negotiation and, as my hon. Friend will appreciate, it would be premature to give details until the arrangements have been completed.
    Mr. Andersonasked the President of the Board of Trade if attention has been called to the large number of workpeople discharged from High Duty Alloys, Limited, Distington, during the last four months; and what steps have been taken to introduce new industries, to meet this position, in accordance with the policy outlined in the Government's White Paper on Full Employment.
    Mr. Dalton: Yes, Sir. The question of the future employment of the workers released from this factory is being examined at the present time, and I am in close touch on the matter with those of my colleagues who are most immediately concerned.
    Mr. Burkeasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he is taking to direct industries into Lancashire in order to maintain employment there when factories at present on war work come to the end of their orders.
    Mr. Dalton: As I have previously stated, there has been a large amount of new industrial building in Lancashire during the war, and I hope that these modern factories, for which I have already received many applications from industrialists, will be fully used, when they are no longer required for war production. I have already announced that the Government factory at Speke has been leased to the Dunlop Rubber Company, Limited.
    Mr. Burke: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the weaving area of Lancashire there are no new factories and no new looms on which to employ people, and that if we are not going to revert to the previous large scale unemployment there, some new industries will have to be brought into that area?
    Mr. McKinlay: Under what conditions are these factories leased to firms?
    Mr. Speaker: That is another question altogether.
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the President of the Board of Trade why action has been taken to prevent new industries or factories from being started in Stoke-on-Trent; if it is his intention to facilitate industrial development in the area; what action has been taken since his visit to North Staffordshire; and how many pottery manufacturers and others, respectively, have inquired about the use of Government factories in the area.
    Mr. Dalton: No action has been taken to prevent new industries or factories being started in Stoke-on-Trent. As I have previously stated, I am confident, and will do my best to ensure, that Government factories, which have been built during the war, when they are no longer required for war purposes, will be fully used for peace-time production. I have received inquiries regarding the post-war use of Government factories in the Stoke area from two pottery manufacturers and a number of firms in other industries.
    Mr. Burkeasked the President of the Board of Trade the specific factors that were taken into consideration when determining which areas of the country are to be regarded as future development areas.
    Mr. Dalton: I would ask my hon. Friend to await the statement which I
    1818
    shall make on the Second Reading of the Distribution of Industry Bill.

    Laundry Zoning Scheme, Oxford
    Mr. Quintin Hoggasked the President of the Board of Trade, in pursuance of what powers the Oxford laundry zoning scheme was put into force; and under what legal sanction proceedings are taken for its infringement either by customer or laundry.
    Mr. Dalton: This scheme is a voluntary one and was introduced, at the request of my Noble Friend, the Minister of War Transport, and myself, in order to secure the maximum saving of petrol, rubber and man-power in furtherance of the war effort. Details were worked out by a committee of Oxford launderers in consultation with my Regional Director of Laundry Services and the Regional Transport Commissioner. No proceedings for infringement of the scheme have been taken or are contemplated. The scheme depends for its success on the co-operation of the launderers in the area, and I am glad to say that this has been forth-coming.
    Mr. Hogg: Does not that answer mean that, having been endowed with ample powers by Parliament, the right hon. Gentleman has, in effect, imposed a scheme, by arriving at an agreement between himself and the trade in such a form that Parliament cannot pray against it? If he calls that a voluntary agreement, can he tell us who volunteered?
    Mr. Dalton: The launderers, whom I approached and invited to volunteer. There is no doubt much voluntary effort is still to be welcomed in furtherance of our war effort.
    Mr. Hogg: Ought the voluntary effort to take the form of a conspiracy in restraint of trade?
    Mr. Dalton: The greater part of the war effort is restraint of trade, for a very good purpose.

    Maximum Retail Prices (Farthings)
    Mr. Loverseedasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the scarcity and the unpopularity of farthings as units of currency, he will order them to be disregarded in the fixing of maximum retail prices or, alternatively, permit of adjustment in price, by mutual consent, between tradesman and customer,

    1819
    without recognised infringement of the maximum retail price orders where neither party is able to furnish a coin of this value.
    Mr. Dalton: The principal Maximum Prices Orders provide that retail maximum prices are to be rounded to the nearest ½d. if the price of the article does not exceed 5s. and to the nearest 1d. if it exceeds 5s. Only for a few articles of very low value are maximum prices fixed in facthings. I am not aware that this practice has caused inconvenience or dissatisfaction and I do not propose to alter it. I could not permit any arrangement between a tradesman and his customer for the payment of more than the legal maximum price, but there is nothing to prevent a tradesman from charging less than that price.
    Mr. Loverseed: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a tradesman who, by mutual consent with his customers, accepted an extra farthing was recently fined £40 for so doing, and that, as a result, customers who now wish to buy commodities the price of which involves a farthing, in o many cases cannot get them unless they have that coin?
    Mr. Dalton: I have had no complaint, but if the hon. Member will send me the particular case, I shall be glad to look into it.

    Cotton Industry
    Mr. Hammersleyasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the steady decline in the production of cotton goods is due to one factor only, namely, inadequate labour supply; and will he take energetic measures, in consultation with the Minister of Labour, to remedy this serious position and to devise some ameliorative action.
    Mr. Dalton: My right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply and I are in constant touch with my right hon. Friends the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Production on this matter. As my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour informed my hon. Friend on Thursday last, further measures are in hand for increasing the number of workpeople in the spinning section of the cotton industry. My right hon. Friends and I Eire also in touch with the Cotton Board in regard to the action which the industry itself is taking,
    1820
    and must in future take, to attract new recruits.
    Mr. Hammersley: As it would appear from the answer that everybody is getting into touch with everybody else, can my right hon. Friend tell fee House what in fact is being done? Is it not the case that when civilian production gets to the low limit that it has reached in this particular trade, the matter becomes one of urgent war priority?
    Mr. Dalton: What is happening is that the Ministers concerned with production in Lancashire are in touch with each other to see whether we can divert some of the labour now employed in making munitions to the spinning of cotton. That is the problem we are considering, but, evidently, we must not prejudice the production of munitions in this critical stage of the war. The cotton industry is not an attractive industry, compared with the making of munitions, and that is one of our troubles.
    Mr. Silverman: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the steady decline of an adequate labour supply is due to one cause only, and that is the failure of the employers in other trades to provide labour with decent wages or reasonable security of employment? May I ask him whether the Government will devise any ameliorative action in regard to that matter?
    Mr. Dalton: I answered that question last week.
    Mr. Anderson: Is it not possible that a number of war industries imported into Lancashire could be transferred to the special areas where unemployment exists at the present time, and thus release cotton operatives?
    Mr. Hammersley: In relation to the supplementary question of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silver-man), may I ask the Minister whether it is not based on lack of information, and cannot be borne out by the facts?
    Mr. Burkeasked the President of the Board of Trade if he can yet announce any Government proposals designed to assist the cotton trade of Lancashire to recover export markets in order that it may make its contribution to the 50 per cent. increase in the country's export trade which the Government have declared to be necessary.
    Mr. Dalton: As I have previously stated, it is the view of His Majesty's Government that, for some time after the war, the cotton industry should be able to sell overseas, at good prices, all it can produce for export. When I discussed post-war problems with leaders of the cotton industry in September last, I urged them to take certain immediate steps to increase the efficiency of the industry. As I informed my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) last Tuesday, discussions on this matter between the various sections of the industry, under the auspices of the Cotton Board, have been proceeding, and I have asked the Chairman of the Cotton Board to keep me informed of their progress.
    Mr. Burke: The Question asks what the Government are doing. In September the Minister told the industry what it had to do. What the industry wants to know is what the Government propose in regard to the export trade specifically.
    Mr. Dalton: To encourage export trade to the utmost extent, consistent with the prosecution of the war effort and the maintenance of essential civilian supplies.
    Mr. Silverman: Has my right hon. Friend included, among the steps he has suggested to the industry, the provision of a legal minimum wage, so as to alter the position whereby, before the war, a weaver could work 48 hours a week for less than 20s.
    Mr. Dalton: One of the points I raised with the industry, as I stated at the time, was the modernisation of the wage structure, which is primarily a matter for the employers and workers in the industry to work out in detail.

    Film Industry (Report)
    Mr. Astorasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has considered the Palache Report on tendencies to monopoly in the film industry; and whether he can make a statement on it.
    Mr. Dalton: As I have previously stated, in accordance with the suggestion made to me by the Films Council, I have, in the first instance, invited the various sections of the films industry to let me have their views on the report. I am still waiting to hear from certain sections of the industry.
    Mr. Astor: Can my right hon. Friend give any estimate when he Will get those
    1822
    answers and when he will have a view of his own?
    Mr. Dalton: When I shall get the answers depends upon the sections of the industry concerned. So far, out of eight associations which, following the advice of the Films Council, I have consulted, I have had replies from only three. It is not my intention to begin to form a view unless I have those communications.

    Men's Socks (Length Restriction)
    Mr. Shephardasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is now in a position to relax the restriction on the length of men's socks.
    Mr. Dalton: No, Sir. This restriction has resulted in a substantial saving of yarn, which is required for other kinds of clothing, particularly infants' wear.
    Mr. Shephard: Is my right hon. Friend aware that these short-length socks are just as unpopular as the austerity suits were? Will he remove this restriction at the earliest possible moment?
    Mr. Dalton: The earliest, possible moment will be used to give priority to infants over males who prefer a long sock to a short sock.
    Dr. Russell Thomas: Is the Minister aware that these socks are always relaxed because they are not long enough to be restricted?
    Commander Agnew: Are the women to be asked to make a contribution?

    Children's Wellington Boots
    Mr. Dribergasked the President of the Board of Trade if he can make any statement on current imports of children's Wellington boots from Canada; anl if there is to be a distribution of these in addition to the distribution of such boots announced by him recently.
    Mr. Dalton: The first consignments of children's Wellingtons from Canada, to which I referred in reply to Questions on 6th February, are expected to arrive in a few weeks' time. These supplies will be small in relation to the total demand and special arrangements have been made to ensure that they are distributed to children in rural areas.
    Mr. Driberg: Thank you.

    Textile Goods (Release)
    Sir Geoffrey Manderasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will consider the advisability of arranging that towels and overalls should be decontrolled; that wool should be supplied in place of yarn for children's socks and jerseys; and that one pair of sheets and at least one blanket per household should be released, in accordance with the request of the standing conference of women's organisations at Wolverhampton.
    Mr. Dalton: I regret that, owing to the shortage of textiles, I cannot see my way at present to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestions regarding towels, overalls and sheets and blankets. As regards wool, the supply of yarn for the hosiery industry and of hand knitting yarn for the shops is being maintained at the highest possible level.

  SAN FRANCISCO CONFERENCE (BRITISH COLONIES)
  Colonel Burtonasked the Prime Minister whether, he will give an assurance that in the discussions at San Francisco the status of British Colonies will not be altered without consultation with such Colonies and the sanction of this House.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): Yes, Sir.

  CHILDREN'S ALLOWANCES (INCOME TAX)
  Miss Rathboneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether children's allowances payable under the Family Allowances Bill, when implemented, will be liable to Income Tax.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Anderson): The children allowances under the Bill will generally be treated as taxable income for Income Tax purposes and the taxpayer will continue to enjoy the personal allowance of £50 per child which the Income Tax law at present provides.
  Miss Rathbone: Does that mean that if a taxpayer receives an allowance in the form of a rebate on his Income Tax he is not expected to pay tax on that rebate, but that if he gets it directly under the new Bill he will pay Income Tax on it? Will that not be in favour of the well-to-
  1824
  do section of the community rather than the poorer?
  Sir J. Anderson: I am afraid I have not been able entirely to follow the hon. Lady's argument. The answer I have given comes down quite simply to this: Allowances which are an addition to income will be treated as income, but the introduction of the new allowances will not be attended by any withdrawal of the existing relief.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: Will the tax be payable by the father or the mother?
  Mr. Rhys Davies: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an estimate of the total sum that is to be paid by the State in family allowances, and how much of the total sum will come back in taxes?
  Sir J. Anderson: I could not possibly give an estimate of that kind.

  FRANCE (CLOTHING PARCELS)
  Miss Rathboneasked the President of the Board of Trade whether arrangements have now been completed for packages of clothing, similar to those which can now be sent by the French Red Cross to French nationals in France, to be sent through the British Red Cross, or any other agency, to persons in France of other than French nationality.
  Mr. Dalton: I am at present considering proposals by the British Red Cross on the lines suggested by my hon. Friend.
  Miss Rathbone: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these things have been considered for several months, according to my information, and in the meantime French nationals are getting packages from England, but British nationals or people of any other nationality cannot get them? Could the matter not be expedited, in view of the fact that winter is passing, and it is in the winter that these packages are needed?
  Mr. Dalton: I will press it forward.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS (REFRESHMENT ARRANGEMENTS)
  Mr. Dribergasked the hon. Member for Dulwich (Sir Bracewell Smith), as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, until what hour it is proposed to provide

  1825
  dining-room service on and after 13th March; at what hour he anticipates that the kitchen and dining-room staff will normally be off duty at night; and, on occasions when the Rule is suspended indefinitely, what steps are being taken to provide early breakfast for hon. Members and to enable the staff to secure transport to their homes during the night.
  Sir Bracewell Smith: The Kitchen Committee has decided that, as far as possible, the catering arrangements from 13th March shall be as follow:
  Hot luncheons will be available from 12.45 p.m. to 2.15 p.m. and hot dinners will be served from 6.30 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. Light refreshments will be obtainable from 12 noon until the House rises. It is proposed to give these arrangements a month's trial, and afterwards to make any alterations that may become necessary.
  Most of the members of the staff will be off duty at 9.30 each night, but, should occasions arise, when the Rule is suspended indefinitely, efforts will be made to supply the necessary refreshment. If, in the light of experience, it is found that existing transport facilities are inadequate, we will endeavour to arrange for the necessary additions to the service.
  Mr. Driberg: While thanking the hon. Member for his reply, may I ask him, with reference to the last part of it, to bear in mind the needs of the staff as regards transport home on occasions such as those mentioned in the question?
  Sir Bracewell Smith
  Mr. Higgs: Will there be any catering arrangements for strangers in the evening?
  Sir Bracewell Smith: The arrangements for strangers will continue as at present, and the same rooms will be available in the evenings.
  Mr. Bowles: Will my hon. Friend really guarantee that there will be enough food for all hon. Members who want lunch and dinner, in view of the fact that now there is not enough for Members at lunch?
  Sir Bracewell Smith: I would ask the hon. Member to wait until after the month's trial, and then raise the question, if necessary.
  Mr. Bowles: If a certain number of meat rations are consumed in any given week, does that limit the amount of meat available in the following week?

  ROSYTH DOCKYARD
  Mr. Hubbardasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is yet in a position to make a statement about the post-war future of Rosyth Dockyard.
  The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Captain Pilkington): Not yet, Sir.
  Mr. Hubbard: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman not aware of the almost impossible task confronting planning committees in the area in view of the absence of information about the Government's intentions on this question?
  Captain Pilkington: I realise that. But I think this matter will be discussed rather fully, probably to-morrow.
  Mr. Kirkwood: Is the Minister aware that this part of Britain has rendered yeoman service? We have now one*of the finest-equipped dockyards in Britain. After the last war Rosyth was a derelict area, and thousands of workers are dreading the same thing after this war. Surely the Minister can do something for men who have done such yeoman service?
  Captain Pilkington: There are many other considerations, in addition to that which my hon. Friend has mentioned.
  Mr. Gallacher: Is the Minister aware—
  Mr. Speaker—
  Mr. Gallacher: But it is very important.

  NIGERIA (CONSTITUTION)
  Mr. CreechJones asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is now in a position to make a statement about constitutional development in Nigeria.
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Colonel Oliver Stanley): Yes, Sir. The Governor of Nigeria, in a recent despatch, has submitted to me proposals for a revision of the Constitution. This despatch, together with an introductory note, has been published as Command Paper No. 6599. As stated in the introductory note, the Governor has been informed that favourable consideration would be given to his proposals, but that in view of their importance Parliament and the representatives of the people of Nigeria should first be given an opportunity of examining them.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Eden: Last Thursday, as the House may remember, I undertook to reconsider taking the Motion on the hours of sitting on Thursday of this week. I have looked at the Business again. We have a very heavy programme to-day and tomorrow, and I do not think the House would find it generally convenient to take that Motion on Friday; so, I am afraid, there is really no choice except to take it on Thursday. But I would suggest that, as hon. Members in all parts of the House are aware of the proposal to alter the hours of sitting and, as I think we are all pretty familiar with the arguments about it, it might be possible to take a decision without a long Debate. In any event, I propose that on Thursday we should suspend the Rule until 7.30 to give time for the Family Allowances Bill.
Mr. Arthur Greenwood: The Motion on the Order Paper dealing with hours of sitting is different from what has been in the minds of hon. Members for some time. I would ask my right hon. Friend whether it is possible to alter the Motion. Many of my hon. Friends were a little doubtful about the wisdom of changing the hours of sitting, but they reluctantly agreed to 2 o'clock. Could my right hon. Friend allow some compromise between 2 o'clock and 2.30, and make the Sittings 2.15 to 9 o'clock at night, with half an hour for the Adjournment?
Mr. Eden: If an arrangement of that kind commended itself to the House, naturally, we would look sympathetically at it. Perhaps my right hon. Friend will give us time to consult with the various parties in the House.
Mr. Woodburn: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it will be a very great inconvenience, in view of the transport position, to sit until 9.30? Would he not consider 9 o'clock as a satisfactory time to close the Sittings?
Mr. Eden: I do not think that there is a great deal of difference between the difficulties at 9 o'clock and those at 9.30.
Miss Rathbone: Has my right hon. Friend considered that if the discussion on hours of sitting is prolonged on Thursday, it will leave very little time, even with an hour's extension, to take the whole of the Second Reading of the Family Allowances Bill and the Financial Resolution?
1828
Could not the Financial Resolution be taken another day?
Mr. Eden: I would like to make progress. We are allowing not only an extra hour, but an extra hour and a half. I think the House could take the discussion on hours of sitting in an hour and a half.
Mr. Hugh Lawson: Is it proposed to take the Electoral Registration Regulations this week, and, if so, on what day?
Mr. Eden: It is still down for Friday.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings on Government Business exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. Eden.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY
  SUPPLY

    AIR ESTIMATES, 1945
    Order for Committee read.
    12.3 p.m.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): I beg to move, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
    The story of the air war in the past year is, largely, the story of the Royal Air Force and the United States Army Air Force, working in the closest partnership and harmony for the destruction of the common enemy. Their tasks are complementary, their fortunes are intertwined. Together they have achieved mastery of the air over Germany and the battle area. The extent of their mastery is illustrated by the reduction in the casualties incurred by squadrons of Bomber Command. In 1942 the bomber squadrons lost 4.1 per cent. of the aircraft despatched; in 1943 they lost 3.7 per cent.; in 1944 the figure fell to 1.7 per cent.; and for the first two months of 1945 it has been as low 1.1 per cent., although an increasing number of operations have been carried out by day.
    The power of the Allied Air Forces—which, of course, include many squadrons from the Dominions and our European Allies—has increased, is increasing, and will continue to increase until Germany is beaten. In mere numbers it is true that the Royal Air Force has reached the peak of its expansion; but its power does not depend only on numbers, but on the prowess of its aircrews, commanders and staffs, and on its technical and scientific equipment, which is becoming ever more formidable with each month that passes. Therefore, without diminishing the total current impact of the Royal Air Force on the enemy, we are in process of reducing the aircrew training organisation to the level required to maintain the smaller air force which will be operatng after the defeat of Germany, This reduction in
    1848
    training will take place mostly in the Dominions. As the House will recall, I explained the details of this reduction last November. Much of the air training has, of course, been given in this country, but in the early months of the war agreements were made under which Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Southern Rhodesia undertook to provide a great deal of the training of the aircrews required, not only for their own Air Forces, but also for the R.A.F. and not only their own young men but young men from this country as well. They also provided the airfields, the buildings, and most of the instructors and ground staff. That was a big task, especially when we remember how small were the Dominion Air Forces at the outbreak of war.
    Soon, however, it became necessary to make further demands on the Dominions. In 1940 we were shut out of the Continent and threatened by invasion, and much of the training which had hitherto been carried out in this country had to be transferred overseas. These additional tasks were readily undertaken, triumphantly completed and, as need arose, ungrudgingly extended. Many of the Dominion aircrew trained in these schools have been formed into Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, South African and Southern Rhodesian squadrons, and many more have gone into Royal Air Force squadrons. Not far short of 200,000 young men, many of them from this country, have received their flying training in the Dominions. All have played a distinguished part in operations against the enemy.
    It was on the sure foundation of this great Dominion training plan that the huge structure of the Royal Air Force was built. It was in the fullest sense a war-winning plan. Strategically, the British Commonwealth and Empire was taking advantage of space and distance to train its aircrews unmolested by the enemy. The United Kingdom and each of the Dominions which took part in it has good I reason to be proud of its share in the success which it has achieved. Most of all our gratitude is due to the Canadian Government and to the Royal Canadian Air Force, on whose shoulders the main burden rested, and whose energy, determination, generosity and inexhaustible resource were equal to every one of the great and constantly increasing demands which were made upon them.

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    The air superiority which has enabled us to call a halt to the numerical expansion of the Royal Air Force has not been obtained without hard fighting and heavy casualties. Between 1st April and 3oth September, 1944, Bomber Command alone suffered more than 10,000 casualties killed, missing and wounded. Reconnaissance and ground straffing of troops and vehicles in the battle area or in other areas heavily defended by flak is also dangerous work. On the other hand, well-planned bombing and hard fighting in the air have so reduced the strength of the German Air Force that our casualty rate has fallen far below what it was prudent to anticipate two years ago, when we were planning for the flow of aircrew into the squadrons to-day. At this juncture the needs of the Army for men are greater than ours, and, just as earlier in the war, men were transferred from the Army and the Navy to the R.A.F. when our needs were the greatest, so now it has been decided that several thousands of men should be transferred to the Army from the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force.
    Naturally the Royal Air Force and all of us who have the privilege of being associated with it in this war, regret the loss of the services of these men. I sympathise deeply with their feelings at being compelled to leave the Service of their choice. I am explaining to the men the reasons which make these transfers necessary and, while no explanations can be expected altogether to remove their disappointment, I know they will understand that the requirements of the war must transcend any individual preference.
    We regret likewise the disbanding of Balloon Command and I know that the House will join with me in paying tribute to the protection, indispensable until recently, which the men and women of Balloon Command have provided for London and other great centres of population. Particularly, the House will recognise the patriotism of those who fitted themselves for these important duties by sacrificing their leisure in the days of peace. Those living in the South of England will remember the swift development of balloons to meet the V.1 attacks. We say "Thank you" to the officers and men of this fine Command. Their work will be carried on to the extent still necessary by smaller elements in Fighter Command and in the Overseas Command.
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    We shall not make the mistake of supposing that Germany is defeated before the "Cease Fire" sounds, but, in the meantime, it is necessary to look beyond the immediate requirements of the war and to take some preliminary thought for the re-establishment of the permanent Royal Air Force. Since the outbreak of war, officers and men have joined the Service as members of the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. Regular officers and airmen are at present only a small minority, and we shall want to take into the Regular Air Force many of the war-time entrants who have so well served their country. I cannot, of course, estimate how many will be required, until the Government has been able to decide on the size of the peace-time Royal Air Force. Till then the total number of officers holding permanent commissions cannot exceed the number in the Service immediately before the war. A start has been made by inviting officers to volunteer for permanent commissions, and lists of those selected will begin to appear at intervals in the near future. So also, early in 1944, airmen were given the opportunity of entering on regular engagements, of extending existing engagements, and of re-engaging for pension.
    We are also preparing for another task which will confront the Royal Air Force when the German war is over—to transfer squadrons and supporting units to the Far East to finish off the war against Japan. We are very conscious of the need for improving the welfare and amenities of men and women serving in that theatre, and the Air Ministry is working closely with the other Departments concerned to secure those ends, of which the Prime Minister recently gave the House a full account. I have appointed a special committee in the Air Ministry to push these things on and to help in overcoming any special difficulties. One measure which is the particular concern of the Royal Air Force is that we have been able recently to increase the provision of air transport for the carriage of mails to troops in that theatre. This has made it possible to abolish the rationing of homeward air letters and to carry by air, at surface rates, all letters up to one ounce in weight both to and from the forces in India and in the South East Asia Command. The pattern of the air offensive in Europe has been reflected in the distant swamps and jungles of Burma. The

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    same hammer blows from the closely integrated British and American Air Forces have destroyed the enemy's dumps, airfields, bridges and all forms of land and water transport. Denied supplies and reinforcements, the Japanese have fallen a prey to our advancing troops. This in turn has led to the clearance of the Burma Road with the great strategic consequence of increasing the flow of supplies to China. The Tactical Air Force element with its Beaufighter, Spitfire and Thunderbolt fighter squadrons, its Hurribomber and tank-busting squadrons, and its Mosquito bomber squadrons have worked closely fused with the Army; while the heavy bombers, the photographic reconnaissance units and the coastal squadrons have all made their brilliant and indispensable contributions to the Allied victories in that theatre. Air supremacy has enabled us both to starve the enemy's troops and to nourish and sustain our own. As many as three divisions have been, at one time, maintained solely by air transport. Thus Air power is opening the gate, through which the Allied Armies will pour to the liberation of the Eastern territories.
    The creation and development of Transport Command has destroyed the paradox that the Royal Air Force was, tactically, the most, but strategically the least mobile of the three services. There in India and Burma, it has full scope not only in maintaining communications along its trunk and feeder services with this country and with other overseas theatres, but in airborne, air-transporting and supply operations. Last night the capture of Meiktila, 75 miles south of Mandalay with its eight airfields, was announced by the B.B.C. The great part of the troops that took it were carried there and all are being nourished there by aircraft of Transport Command.
    In the Far East the British and American Air Forces serve under a British Air Commander-in-Chief, Sir Keith Park. In the Mediterranean theatre they serve under an American Officer, General Eaker, with a British officer, Sir John Slessor, as his Deputy. The Mediterranean. is a theatre which provides a striking example of the versatility and flexibility of air power. The famous Coastal Air. Force has many roles. Before the decline of German sea power in the Mediterranean, this group fought the German submarines
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    and the torpedo and bomber aircraft which attacked our convoys. That work would hardly keep them busy now, but they still attack German shipping in the Adriatic, and in the Gulf of Genoa; they still carry out reconnaissance over the sea, and they still give fighter protection to our convoys, bases and lines of communication by day and by night.
    The Allied Tactical Air Forces, of which the famous Desert Air Force forms part, work closely with the Army. The 15th United States Strategic Air Force and British bomber squadrons working with them carry the bomber offensive into Southern Germany from Italian airfields. There are plenty of German fighter squadrons, and several factories, which produce jet aircraft in Southern Germany. The Alps present a formidable barrier—ice and snow in winter and an even greater danger in summer—heavy electrical storms; but the targets are important, and these squadrons are making a big contribution from Italy to the success of the Bomber offensive. Another formation in Italy with a brilliant record of achievement is the Balkan Air Force, working closely with both the Army and the Navy, fighting the Germans and their satellites in the Adriatic and the Balkans, and supporting Marshal Tito's partisans.
    When I introduced these Estimates last year, the German Air Force was attempting, on a small scale, to renew the blitz on London. The unfailing skill of our night fighter crews, of our ground controllers and of the gunners and searchlight crews of Anti-Aircraft Command, inflicted on them sufficient losses to deter them from mere harassing attacks, which were producing no military results. The German blitz has petered out under the crushing blows of the Allied bomber offensive, Small numbers of fast aircraft, carrying a few bombs, may get through from time to time, but not without paying their toll to Fighter Command; as they did when they lost at least six, and more probably eight, aircraft out of seventy fighter raiders on Saturday night.
    Mr. Edgar Granville: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the 60 or 70 fighter bombers he has referred to were jet-propelled or not?
    Sir A. Sinclair: They were not jet-propelled, but long-range fast night-fighters carrying a limited number of bombs.

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    So the Germans resorted last summer to the flying-bomb. The weight of the attack fell off when the sweeping advances of Field-Marshal Montgomery's Armies resulted in the occupation of the principal launching sites. Launchings continued, however, on a small scale from aircraft during the winter, until the campaign was temporarily abandoned about six weeks ago. Now the Germans have started using them again. As far as we can see, the new ones are much the same in performance as the old ones but they have a rather longer range. In the meantime, we are also under fire by V.2. The Government are deeply conscious of the strain to which these attacks are subjecting many thousands of our fellow countrymen. The loss of life and homes, the injuries and the human suffering and misery which they inflict are grievous. They fall upon a courageous people which has suffered and endured much in more than five years of war.
    No practical means of abating these attacks has been neglected by the Royal Air Force, but the launching site of a V.2 is small and hard to identify. Any space of ground—hard or artificially hardened—23 feet by 23 feet, will serve as a launching site for the rocket. It may be in streets or woods, or on an open road. We may know that certain areas near or in a particular town or village in Holland, are being used for launching. To send some squadrons of Bomber Command to obliterate that town or village would destroy the lives and homes of hundreds, or even thousands of our Dutch allies, who are already suffering terribly; but the men who operate the rockets, would emerge from their deep shelters when the bombardment was over, and either carry on their nefarious work elsewhere, or else perhaps clear a space, and continue to operate from the same devastated town. By attacks on storage sites, on supply routes, motor transport parks and lines of communication, we are reducing the scale of attack far below what the Germans hoped to achieve; but in the case of the rocket, as in the case of the flying bomb, the only way to silence this form of long-range artillery is the physical occupation of the sites from which these weapons are fired and our primary object, therefore, is—in close co-operation with the Army—to hasten the paralysis and destruction of the German armies on
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    our front and, consequently the liberation of Holland from the German invader.
    To this supreme object—the destruction of the armed might of Germany—all three Services in closest partnership are bending their efforts. In successive speeches introducing these Estimates, I have described how the partnership of the three Services was being developed. The fruits of these efforts have been gathered in the campaigns at sea against the German U-boats and German shipping, and on land in the battles by which the German armies are being driven remorselessly back from the West, from the East and from the South, with crippling losses in men and material.
    D-Day for the British and American Armies of liberation was 6th June last year, but for the Royal Air Force the campaign had started long before. The weight of our invasion of Northern Europe would have been much reduced if the U-boats had been sinking even a fraction, of the number of Allied ships which they were sinking in every month of the year 1943. Gradually, however, the squadrons of Coastal Command—very long range Liberators, Wellingtons with their searchlights, Fortress, Sunderland and Catalina Squadrons, Beaufighters with their rockets and Mosquitos carrying a six-pounder—working in closest co-operation with the escort groups of the Royal Navy, had obtained an increasing mastery of the German submarines. Bomber Command, too, had contributed largely to this result by bombing the U-boats in their assembly yards and in their pens, and by their arduous, difficult and extremely successful mining operations.
    The Germans had boasted that, thanks to the U-boat, no Allied soldier would set foot on the Continent of Europe. Coastal Command and the Royal Navy answered this boast with deeds. Together, they swept the seas, and kept open those channel lanes on which depended the security of our convoys and the nourishment of our armies. In the opening stages of this great battle the burden of the fighting lay principally on Coastal Command. In the three weeks before D-Day Admiral Doenitz was endeavouring to move up his reserves of U-boats from their bases in Norway to the threatened area of the Channel coast. From Norway, these U-boats began to slink out on their long trek through Northern and

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    Atlantic waters to the Channel. The Commander-in-Chief, Coastal Command—Sir Sholto Douglas—had anticipated every move they made. Knowing what they had to expect, the German Command had given their crews a concentrated course of training against air attack. In particular, they were equipped with a new 37 mm. anti-aircraft gun. Their foresight was wise but unavailing, for these reinforcements were attacked and mauled by aircraft of Coastal Command. In the continuous daylight of the Northern summer, the battle was joined off the coasts of Norway, the Shetlands and the Faroes, and even in the Arctic, where the U-boats sought to escape the range of our aircraft. Many were sunk and damaged.
    This was the opening bout. The main campaign, fought in the English Channel and its Western approaches, began on D-Day. Previous to that date, single U-boats had penertated into coastal waters with the aid of Schnorkels. When the invasion came, the Biscay U-boat fleet made their way to the Western approaches of the Channel on the surface. They were instantly engaged by Coastal Command, and U-boat prisoners have frankly admitted that entering the Channel was a nightmare. During the first tour critical days from D-Day, the Command made 38 sightings, which resulted in several destructive attacks. In every case the U-boats fought back desperately with flak, but our indomitable aircrews—heroic men like Flight Lieutenant Hornell, of the Royal Canadian Air Force, who lost his life, and Flying Officer Cruickshank, whose gallant exploits earned for them the Victoria Cross—flew in low through the flak and bombed with deadly accuracy.
    These successes of Coastal Command, won in unison with the Royal Navy, were decisive; a blow was inflicted on the enemy from which he never recovered. It was fatal to his prospects of holding what he chose to call the Fortress of Europe. Nor were the enemy's hopes of countering the invasion confined to U-boats. He hoped for great things from his motor gun boats and motor torpedo boats which were to harry the main lines of our shipping. We know from our prisoners of war that hardly a motor gun boat or motor torpedo boat put to sea without being spotted and attacked from
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    the air. Coastal Command is also carrying on a sustained and deadly campaign against the enemy's shipping which has been carrying supplies to his U-boat bases in Northern waters or evacuating his troops from Norway. The target presented by enemy shipping is incomparably smaller than that presented by our own shipping to the enemy; but, week by week, Coastal Command is sinking German ships off the coasts of Norway, Denmark and Holland.
    The work of Bomber Command under Sir Arthur Harris and of the United States Strategic air forces under General Spaatz, in preparation for the launching of our armies, had been continuous over a period of years. All through 1943 and 1944, the great battles of the Ruhr, of Hamburg and Berlin, were steadily undermining the war power of Germany. We had become aware that the Germans were making a tremendous effort to build up the biggest fighter force that the world had ever seen. They were preparing to accept the defensive role and, sacrificing their bomber force, they were concentrating on building up an impregnable fighter defence Thus the Germans were being forced to cover up against our bomber blows. The bomber offensive was proving to be the most effective defence of our homes and factories against a blitz on the great scale. Had they been left undisturbed, they would have increased their fighter production from 1,000 a month, at which it stood in the middle of 1943, to 2,500 or 3,000 a month by thee end of last year.
    The British and American bomber forces, therefore, in the winter of 1943 and spring of last year turned their main effort against the German fighter factories and ancillary production. The German fighters struggled desperately to save their factories. Bomber Command's casualties were high, but they pressed their attacks with determination and with devastating effect. The Americans fought brilliantly, destroying hundreds of German fighters in air fighting and bombing with deadly accuracy.
    The House may remember that, in introducing these Estimates on 29th February last year, I said that it might well be that historians of the future would look back upon the period between the February and the March moons, in which these attacks were being delivered in great force

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    by British and American squadrons from Italy and from this country, as one of the decisive stages of the whole war; and I am interested to see that General Arnold, Commanding General of the United States Army Air Force, in his annual report to Congress, which was published last week, says:
    "The week of February 20–26, 1944, may well be classed by future historians as marking a decisive battle in history—one as decisive and of greater world importance than Gettysburg."
    That great series of attacks against the German aircraft production laid the foundation of the air mastery which the Allies enjoyed on D-Day and now enjoy over Germany and the battlefields of Europe.
    In the late spring, the destruction of German communications behind the intended invasion front took first place among our bombing objectives. Bomber Command, the 2nd Tactical Air Force and the U.S.A.A.F. all played their parts in this campaign. It was not a task upon which the Allied Air Forces entered lightheartedly, for it involved the destruction of railway facilities, some of which were in thickly populated areas of France. It was therefore bound to entail distressing loss of life among French civilians in spite of every precaution which we could take—and we neglected none. Marshalling yards and railway repair facilities were destroyed on a great scale. Twenty-four road and railway bridges over the Seine were selected for bombing; by D-Day all 24 had been either demolished or severely damaged. The result of this campaign was to destroy one of the main assumptions on which the enemy's plan of defence was based. He had naturally assumed that he could reinforce his defensive front by road and rail more quickly than we could reinforce by sea. As things turned out, the weather favoured this calculation and for three critical days it was impossible to land troops or supplies over the beaches. Nevertheless, so thoroughly had the Allied Air Forces done their work, and so complete was the mastery of the British and American Tactical Air Forces over the French roads and railways by day, that the Allied armies were able to reinforce much more quickly than the Germans.
    German troops were rushed into the battle piecemeal on bicycles. Two divisions which were brought from the eastern
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    front took only five days to cross Europe to the French frontier, and then took 14 days to travel from the frontier to the battle. Another German division, hastening to the battle from North-East France, detrained at Rouen and subsequently took 14 days to reach the battle area on foot. Famous Panzer divisions were short of tanks and in some cases were using old French ones. The strategic plan of the Germans for countering the invasion broke against the searching weapons of air attack.
    The Royal Air Force also successfully delivered two of the largest airborne formations ever taken into battle. In the first of these operations, British and American airborne forces formed the spearhead of the Normandy landing. The second operation succeeded later in forcing the Maas and the Waal, and one of the Transport Command groups which took part in these operations has also successfully evacuated by air from the Continent over 55,000 casualties since D-Day.
    The brilliant work of the 2nd Tactical Air Force, their mastery of the air over the battlefield and their throttling grip on German communications have surpassed all reasonable expectation. The slaughter of the German Panzer Divisions in the Falaise Gap by the rocket and bomber Typhoons of the Tactical Air Force was a brilliant exploit. Under the command of Sir Trafford Leigh-Mallory—whose loss is such a heavy blow to the Royal Air Force and to the country—and of Air Marshal Sir Arthur Coningham, the closeness of the partnership between the Tactical Air Force and the Army, under Field Marshal Montgomery, was assured. Together they have operated in the spirit of Field Marshal Montgomery's declaration that the first and great principle of war is that you must first win your air battle before you fight your land and sea battle: and, as he added, we never had to bother about the enemy in the air because we won the air battle first.
    Mr. Bowles: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman one question? If we have, as he keeps saying, complete supremacy in the air, will he explain why the German troops were able to get across the Rhine so recently, particularly after General Eisenhower had said that he had smashed the German Army on this side of the Rhine?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I said complete air supremacy. I did not say complete supremacy over the land and the air, and I do not think there has been in any theatre of war, at any time during this war, any case in which an army has been so paralysed by an air force that it has been quite incapable of movement, even in winter weather.
    Two activities of Bomber Command call, I think the House will agree, for special attention on this occasion, and the hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) will be interested in view of what he said in last year's Debate. The first is the sinking of the "Tirpitz", the greatest of the German battleships and perhaps, in her time, the toughest ship afloat. The House will not forget that she had already suffered rough usage at the hands of the midget submarines of the Royal Navy and the aircraft of the Fleet Air Arm. She was sunk by two squadrons of Bomber Command under Wing Commander Tait. They flew 1,200 miles to bomb from some 15,000 feet and scored three direct hits and two near misses. The House is fully sensible of the immense debt which we owe to our gallant Allies—to their courage and skill in battle, to their wisdom in counsel and planning, and to their co-operation in scientific research—but I think Hon. Members will also be gratified to reflect that this brilliant feat of arms was accomplished by British, crews aiming, with a British bombsight of extraordinary complexity, ingenuity and accuracy a 12,000 lb. bomb of British design and manufacture from a British Lancaster—the only aircraft in the world to-day which could carry that bomb.
    The other activity of Bomber Command to which I referred—mainly but not solely of Bomber Command, for other commands overseas and to some extent at home have shared it—is one of which little public mention has yet been made. When the peoples of Europe awoke from the nightmare of 1940, they found themselves powerless against the mechanised might of Nazi Germany. To the Royal Air Force fell the task of supplying arms to the resurgent peoples of Europe. A plan to arm the patriots of Europe was drawn up between the Services. A small force of aircraft was allotted to the task. First, Whitleys carried out these missions. Then they were
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    replaced by larger aircraft—by Halifaxes, Stirlings and Liberators—and in greater numbers.
    The task was exacting. Every crew was a pathfinder. They were searching, not for towns or marshalling yards, but for fields and points in the open country—often miles from roads or other landmarks. This entailed extremely low flying, with the aircraft—especially if it was a light night—an easy mark for even the lightest flak. In difficult country the navigation risks were almost as formidable as the risks from the enemy. Frequently pilots had to land their aircraft in occupied territory to bring out leading members of the Underground movement.
    For example, it became necessary last Spring to bring out of South East Poland some staff officers of the Polish Underground Forces. Two days before the operation was due to take place, the suspicion of the Germans in the district was aroused. The local peasants and farmers, all members of the underground organisation, were mobilised. Their rifles, pistols, and hand grenades were taken out of the hiding-places where they were kept between the battles which the Polish secret army had been fighting for four years and were put into action. For 48 hours the brave Poles fought. They lost 42 men killed and many wounded, but they kept the landing ground—a field of stubble—clear. A Dakota aircraft, flown by a British crew with a Polish navigator flew in, landed safely, and five minutes later took off with its important passengers.
    The Women's Auxiliary Air Force has been to the fore in these activities. Several young W.A.A.F. officers were dropped by parachute at night. In one case, after parachuting into France to act as a courier, a W.A.A.F. officer took charge of a large Mavis group after the capture of her commanding officer, reorganised it and, displaying remarkable qualities of tact, leadership and courage, contributed greatly to the success of many supply dropping operations and to the destruction of enemy forces. In another case a W.A.A.F. W/T operator landed and trained three French operators. This brave young woman's parachute stuck and opened only just in time. So she fell heavily and declares that she owes her life to bundles of paper francs which she was carrying wrapped round her like a cushion.

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    Thus fostered, the Resistance Movements of Europe grew. From Norway to Greece and from Brittany to Poland small armies sprang up, and as the days of 1944 grew longer as many as 170 aircraft a night ranged the length and breadth of France, guided, in some isolated places, by immense bonfires and, at other times and other places, by other methods. Patriot forces in the Balkans and in Central Europe were supplied from bases in the Mediterranean. Aircraft operating from this country dropped more than 160,000 parachute containers of arms and explosives, and 3,700 packages of specialised equipment. At least 15,000 tons of supplies wore dropped from Great Britain alone. Many splendid and experienced air crews have been lost in these enterprises. Thousands of Europen patriots have been savagely slain in reprisals by the Germans, but their devotion and the courage of Allied air crews have not been in vain. The achievements of the F.F.I. and other citizen armies of Europe testify to the success and effectiveness of their enterprises.
    The strategic bomber offensive, however, remains the principal role of the British and American Bomber Commands. The arm of Bomber Command reaches across Europe from time to time and bombs targets in direct support of the redoubtable Red armies in their advance from the East. More generally, however, the effect of the British and American strategic bomber offensive is felt on every front—in the West, East and South. The 5th and 6th Panzer armies when they started on their great offensive in the Ardennes in December, were only at half-strength in tanks, and the shortage of tanks and other equipment and, most of all, of oil, is hampering and enfeebling the power of Germany in every element and on every front.
    It was a big decision of policy when the Prime Minister and the War Cabinet determined, in 1941, to launch this tremendous offensive. Vast resources had to be devoted to it. The factories and machine tools did not exist for the construction of the necessary number of bombers. Land had to be bought, foundations laid, factories planned and built, and labour recruited and trained, before the expansion could get into its stride. Our experience in bombing up to that time had brought home to us the extreme difficulty of the task which we were setting
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    our crews. We knew that only a small proportion of our own bombs were hitting the right target, and that the same was true of the German air force in the blitz. With extraordinary courage and determination, our bomber crews were pioneering and blazing the trail for those who are now carrying on their work.
    We saw and appraised our difficulties, errors and deficiencies, and we calculated—applying, so far as it was possible to do so, the scientific method to our calculations—that we could and would enable Bomber Command to hit Germany, not three or four or ten times harder, but 50 times harder than in 1941. We estimated that we could increase Bomber Command's bomb-lift ten times, and that we have more than done. In addition we allowed for improved training, for scientific aids to navigation, for more powerful bombs and explosives, for better fuses and bomb-sights, all of which were at different stages of design arid development, and we made a liberal discount for the improvements which we expected the Germans could make—as indeed they did—in their air defences. To the improvements which I have mentioned as being in our minds at that time, we subsequently added others—for example, the new methods of identifying, marking and illuminating targets by the Pathfinder Force. I am not going to make an assertion that I cannot prove—that we have succeeded in hitting Germany 50 times as hard as we did in 1941—but I feel confident that the scientific, impartial and objective investigation which will take place into the results of the bomber offensive, will prove that we have achieved our aim.
    For four years, the Allied Air Force was the only force from the West carrying the war to Germany. From Dunkirk to D-Day, they harried and pounded German war industry and transport. Had not the Luftwaffe been out-fought in the air, hammered on its airfields and smashed in its factories, there could have been no invasion of Normandy last year. Every port in Southern England before D-Day was packed with shipping for the invasion—a bomb-aimer's paradise—ships incomparably bigger and more numerous than the targets which Hitler's invasion preparations offered to our little bomber force in 1940. Yet not a bomb fell. From the clays of the first thousand-bomber attacks in the summer of 1942, the scale of attack

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    has been mounting hugely. During the fifth year of the war—from September, 1943, to August, 1944—Bomber Command dropped a greater weight of bombs on Germany than in the four previous years put together. Even the fifth year's total has been greatly surpassed in the six months which have elapsed of the sixth year of war.
    The combined offensive against German oil production began last April. By September, owing to the destruction wrought by Allied bombers and the capture of the Roumanian oil fields by our Russian Allies, this production had been cut to about a quarter of the April figure. But oil targets are small, strongly defended and hard to hit. By November, after a period of bad weather, which prevented visual bombing, the Germans had succeeded, by incessant and desperate repair work, in raising it appreciably, but repeated attacks by the bombers, aided by the capture of the Polish refineries and the synthetic oil plants in Silesia by the Russians, have struck the figure down again to the September level. The attack continues. We start in March, with the weather improving, where we were in September, with the weather deteriorating.
    The effect of this lack of oil supplies is being felt in many ways. Many combat units of the German Army are not allowed to use oil except during actual operations. Movements of reserves and replacements are being held up. The movement of German surface shipping is severely restricted. German aircrews are not so good as they were because they cannot spare the petrol for training. The destruction of the synthetic oil plants at Zeitz, Politz, Brux and Leuna by Bomber Command will rank among the great feats of British Arms in this war. Already, the Allied Air Forces have reduced German oil production to such an extent that his available reserves are approaching exhaustion.
    Allied air bombing is on such a colossal scale that Dr. Goebbels has had to admit that "it can now hardly be borne." In the week ending 12th February, 16,000 tons of bombs were dropped by the Allied Air Forces. This rose to 23,000 tons the next week, to 41,000 the week after that, and, in the following week, 32,000 tons with some returns outstanding. This
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    swelling crescendo of destruction is engulfing oil plants, tank factories and the communications of the German armies on every front, as, from West, East and South, the Allied Armies surge forward into Germany.
    12.52 p.m.
    Mr. Montague: The House will join the Secretary of State in his thanks to the Royal Air Force, with which the right hon. Gentleman coupled, rightly, the Canadian Royal Air Force and the American Bomber Commands, for the work that has been done during the past year. The high-light of his speech, I think, was the right hon. Gentleman's statement towards the end that, before D-Day, with all the Southern ports crowded with invasion shipping, not a single German bomb fell. The story is an epic one and has been told with the dramatic force and brilliance that we may always expect from the right hon. Gentleman. I think also that the House will wish to join in the appreciation expressed by the Minister to the people of this country, who have withstood the attacks of the various V weapons that have been launched from Germany against this country. That, too, is a splendid story, and those of us who have seen some of the results of that kind of attack appreciate the stalwartness of our civilian population in standing up so well to it.
    There are one or two questions that I would like to put before I come to the main part of what I wish to say. They are not altogether concerned with minor points, but I do not put them in any sense of challenge or criticism, but rather for the purpose of giving the Minister an opportunity of informing the House more generously than it has been informed hitherto about particular points. Some anxiety, I understand, has been expressed among personnel of the Royal Air Force in the Middle East and even farther afield in the more remote Commands with regard to facilities for training for civilian employment. They feel that there is a possibility, if not of being forgotten, at least of being left out to some extent and taking second place when they come back at the end of hostilities. It would, I am sure, be reassuring to these personnel if whoever replies for the Ministry at the end of this Debate gave some note of what is in mind with regard to training for civilian employment. The Secretary of

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    State referred to the question of recruitment after the war. Without raising the general question of conscription which, of course, would hardly be in Order in a Debate of this character, I would like to know, and many of my friends would like to know, whether we still rely upon Air Force attractiveness being sufficient for recruitment at the end of this war, and whether anything can be said about the question of short-term engagement, as against conscription or compulsion.
    The third point I wish to raise concerns accidents to aeroplanes carrying official personnel. This opportunity, I think, could be taken by the Ministry to reassure this House, which has been very much concerned about the number of these accidents. Compared with the flights that have been undertaken, there may not be so much of a disproportion as appears upon the surface, but, both in the newspaper Press and among the public in general, there has been a great amount of concern. We would like to know whether the results of investigations have shown any kind of common factor such as applied to the aeroplanes—climatic conditions or operational circumstances generally.
    Finally, I would like to hear something upon the terms upon which land has been acquired for aerodromes throughout the country. There has been a very large number of them, and one appreciates, of course, that, in the emergency of war, it has been impossible to carry on things in a normal way. There is, however, one case which applies to a civil aerodrome, and may apply to Royal Air Force aerodromes and others in the country, suggesting the desirability of a statement upon the method adopted of recoupment for the owners of land when land is acquired for this purpose. I refer to the Middlesex Airport. The best agricultural land in Middlesex does not command more than about £25 per acre upon normal sale. I recognise, of course, the necessity for doing away with farm buildings—in this case, a large number of conservatories—and probably there is a figure in contemplation which will deal not only with land values, but also with the question of goodwill and the buildings that occupy the space. I am told that, as against the £25 per acre for land of pure agricultural value, there has been some amount of speculative purchase at £300 per acre, and
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    that the Government are prepared to pay up to £600 per acre for land for an aerodrome which is going to cost many mil-liens. This has appeared in the Press and has been discussed. I refer to the Middlesex Airport called Heath Row, the new London Airport that is being built. If we are being "rooked," if I may use an expression like that—and I know that land speculators do "rook" the public and the Government in this way—this must be taken into account, magnified tremendously if we take into account the large number of transactions of a similar character which have been undertaken.
    Dr. Russell Thomas: May I inquire on what grounds the hon. Member thinks that agricultural land is worth only £25 an acre? Will he give the evidence on which he bases that figure?
    Mr. Montague: Perhaps I cannot give evidence that will satisfy my hon. Friend, for it was a figure I saw in one of the week-end newspapers quite recently. I do not know from personal knowledge that that figure is accurate, but I should imagine there is a vast difference between agricultural values in Middlesex or anywhere else in the country and the £600 an acre which the Government are willing to pay, although, as I have said, I appreciate that the £600 would cover much more than the bare agricultural value. I want to refer to one other point which I know concerns primarily the Ministry of Aircraft Production. Perhaps, however, the Air Ministry can say, for the benefit of those concerned who are considerably distressed about the matter, something on the transfer of the air replacement station at Kidbrooke. This transfer would mean that about 600 personnel would be uprooted and they consider it ought to be possible for the Ministries concerned in that to get into touch and to see if some other kind of Government operation could be carried on there, such as telephones and so on. I refer to that in passing because some concern has been felt about it.
    I want to come now to an aspect of the Vote which may perhaps be questioned by Members because of the large number of Debates we have had upon the subject of Civil Aviation. However, there are some things that have happened since the last Debate which ought to be ventilated at the very earliest possible moment, and

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    therefore I make no apology for raising the general policy of the future of civil flying in this country.
    Mr. Perkins: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in Order for this House to discuss Civil Aviation in this Debate?
    Mr. Speaker: I think it is one of the Votes that is down, and therefore it is in Order.
    Mr. Montague: It has always been debated upon the Estimates, although only Vote A and Vote I are mentioned. I want to deal with this question because civil flying cannot be dissociated from questions of defence and world peace. The hon. Member for Duddeston (Sir O. Simmonds), in the last Debate on Civil Aviation, thought that the policy of the Labour Party upon this question had been changed because I did not state the Labour Party's case and gave way to my hon. Friend the Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn). However, that was due to indisposition, and I am sure that the Labour Party's policy upon Civil Aviation and the world aspects of Civil Aviation have not changed in the slightest degree, but I do not want to raise the question quite so widely as that. We stand for public ownership, as the House very well knows, and if any argument is wanted in favour of that policy it is to be found in the illogical proposed set-up for Civil Aviation in the future which has seen the light in spite of the fact that there have been a number of secret deals and meetings beforehand without the opportunity for this House to consider the matter, or having the details put before them. I do not disagree with consultations with people who are concerned in matters affecting legislation—the Trades Union Congress, for instance, in industrial matters, is a case in point; the British Medical Association in respect of medical services; education people in respect of the subject of education. There is, however, a world of difference between discussing with interests of one kind and another the administrative details of a Government policy, and propounding to certain elements that policy before it is presented to the British House of Commons.
    Captain Peter Macdonald: Where was this pronouncement made?
    Mr. Montague: I shall deal with it all in a moment. I cannot help feeling that there is a question of constitutional tradition involved in this, and that this particular case is an exceedingly flagrant one. The question just asked me is answered by the fact that I have here minutes of a private meeting between Lord Swinton and the independent operators after a deal had been made with the railway companies and the shipping companies of this country, throwing at them—not discussing details, not facilitating the future of Civil Aviation—the declared policy of the Government which has not been declared to this House or the country. I think that kind of thing must stop; we have had too much of it. It is in the direction of the corporate State and it is a very dangerous precedent, constitutionally speaking. The proposal I have referred to is one which contains the demerits of both systems. The question is not the ordinary one—and I do not wish to raise it in any large way—that we put of public versus private enterprise. We have discussed that over and over again. It is one that is bigger because of the potentialities of this instrument, the aeroplane, for good and for evil. This instrument, we consider, apart from its commercial or even State exploitation, apart even from the question of general efficiency, has too much potentiality for harm in the world for it to be left any longer to the development of private concerns and private individuals.
    The Royal Air Force has a jet fighter in operation, the Meteor, which is faster than V1 and has been in operation against it. When I was at the Ministry of Aircraft Production, at a time when I had the great privilege of almost daily contact with the "boys in the backroom," I remember when Lord Brabazon, Sir Charles Craven, Air Marshal Linnell and I looked upon the first diagrams of the jet plane, the Whittle, and were not only amazed at the simplicity but the possibilities of that new instrument. We were almost aghast at its possibilities after some years of development. We must think in, terms of 20 years hence of what that development will mean to peace in the world, to the relations between those who are exploiting the air, and all that speed means. Personally, I do not believe that this worship of the goddess of speed is likely to make human beings a bit more happy than they are, but

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    there it is. We live still in a competitive World, in a world that is menaced by war, and we must and we will do wonderful work. Apart from any question of private enterprise, those "boys in the backroom" were actuated by patriotism, and by considerations that had very little to do with matters of private property, as I know very well.
    Anyhow, the R.A.F. has this jet fighter and we are building a new research station, I believe. Now there is in actual existence, in its primary stages at any rate, another jet fighter which is embodied in Lockheed designs, I believe, in. America, a jet fighter which has aerodynamic principles, that will enable speeds to be attained greater than the speed of sound—720 miles per hour. Anyone with imagination thinking of those facts, must look upon the possible picture of the future with something—well, I will not say "like despair," because it all depends, but the Prime Minister said in his last speech that the peace of the world depends upon a very fine equilibrium. We have great hopes of the Allied Powers, and the equilibrium of forces that will be the result of those Powers remaining friendly and keeping the policy of unity in being, but, thinking 20 to 25 years ahead, at any rate he cannot guarantee that. We have to recognise that it is a fine razor edge of equilibrium and that, when we have these facts in front of us, we cannot divide military and civil aviation one from the other. That is what I particularly wish to stress. Both aspects advance in step, and for that reason we might as well leave the development of the rocket bomb to private enterprise as the development of these fast aeroplanes of the future, quite apart from any ordinary question of whether private enterprise or State enterprise is good, bad or indifferent.
    It is no use at all reopening the question of international co-operation, that was settled at Chicago. The Government are satisfied that order in the air and a certain amount of agreement to avoid competition are sufficient. Any commercial cartel could do exactly the same thing, and that is all Chicago amounts to—it amounts to making the world, in the air at any rate, safe for commercialism, if hon. Members will excuse the paradox. That is really all it amounts to, just as any international cartel can arrange zones
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    of influence and divide up world trade. I notice that Lord Swinton, speaking to the Aerodrome Owners' Association, made this remarkable statement:
    "I am glad to say that we have achieved a commonwealth partnership in the air in these recent months, a complete agreement on how we are to run our services in partnership together. That is the thing we all have wanted for years."
    We have done nothing of the kind. We have turned down our two Pacific partners. In Empire, as well as in trans-Atlantic services, Civil Aviation is to run as virtually private monopolies. I think I am able to prove that. To say that we are now in partnership with our Dominions is an exaggeration, because, after all, Lord Swinton was only referring to the partnership represented by the Chicago policy—
    Captain P. Macdonald: I think the hon. Gentleman is quite out of date. There has been considerable consultation and an amount of agreement reached. I think he should get some further information on the subject before making charges against Lord Swinton.
    Mr. Montague: The hon. and gallant Member must not be in such a hurry. That is twice he has interrupted me. I am going to deal with all the evidence there is. Lord Swinton had made no agreement which justifies that statement. The Prime Minister of New. Zealand said that Australia and New Zealand stood for the control and operation of international air trunk-routes by an international authority which would own the aircraft and equipment. Lord Swinton did not make an agreement of that character. He did not think every nation would approve of that, but he considered that it should be aimed at as the greatest force for friendship that could be devised. If the international ownership idea failed to advance, international control would still be striven for. As an alternative they would be prepared to support an Imperial system of air trunk-routes owned and operated by the British and Dominion Governments. That is where Australia and New Zealand stand, but it is not what the Government stands for and it is not the policy which has been declared, though secretly, and which will, I suppose, soon be embodied in the White Paper. What is the policy? I have the minutes of the meeting which was held with the independent operators. [An

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    HON. MEMBER: "Where did the hon. Member get them from?"] The newspapers had it, and there have been many references in the Press as to what has happened before the House has had a chance of knowing the policy of the Government.
    There are to be three separate units in some vast tripartite concern. The first will compose the Empire and trans-Atlantic air services, comprising the B.O.A.C. in partnership with certain shipping companies on certain routes. That is the only case where the B.O.A.C. has predominance. The South and possibly Central American, West Indies and Caribbean areas are to be combined and to be operated by shipping companies serving those areas with the B.O.A.C. holding a minority interest. Thirdly, the civil air routes in the United Kingdom and in Europe, comprising the interests of the railway companies, the short shipping lines and independent operators of prewar services—the B.O.A.C. would be given a substantial though not a controlling financial interest—and tramp steamship companies also are expected to participate. That means that Civil Aviation is to be run by steamship and railway companies. The dominant power, financial and operative, is now to be vested in steamship and railway companies, for they are to be given monopoly powers. One of the answers of Lord Swinton to those who raised the question whether goodwill should be paid out was: "No, there will be no payment for goodwill, because there is monopoly power granted." He actually used that expression. The Minister is to approve the board of directors, who are to be solely responsible for operation and management, and Government control over all lines of aviation policy is to be established. That is defined and, when we come to the definition, we find that it means simply conformation to the policy of the International Convention or bilateral or multilateral agreement—in other words, Chicago.
    That is all that the Government have to deal with—the question of order in the air and certain questions of the avoidance of competition, mainly for the benefit of railway and steamship companies. The European company is to have the power to form joint operating companies in Europe and to enter into pooling arrangements with foreign companies.
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    An international company might be formed in Europe to operate services in and to Germany and the Government might have an interest in such a company. The terms upon which the Government desire interests to participate have been fully acceptable to those who were consulted, but those so far consulted were the steamship and railway companies before the independent operators were called together. That kind of consultation, before the House has the faintest notion of what is being done on Civil Aviation or anything else, is very objectionable and I and my party protest against it.
    Rear-Admiral Sir Murray Sueter: Is all this official that the hon. Member is reading out? He may have seen the White Paper. I certainly have not.
    Mr. Montague: I have said twice that what has been done is common property. It is the property of the newspapers, and I have the minutes of the meeting at which Lord Swinton addressed the independent operators. I feel justified in raising this question beforehand because, when the White Paper comes out, it will be regarded as a settlement and certain dispositions will have been made. Look at the shares of the railway and shipping companies. Look at the fact that there is one independent company which has already, on the basis of the Government plan, sold out to the railways. If these dispositions can be made before the House is consulted, we are going far towards the corporate State and a set-up which is certainly not of a democratic character.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aircraft Production (Mr. Lennox-Boyd): The Minister of Aircraft Production some weeks ago announced that the Minister for Civil Aviation had, with the approval of his colleagues, initiated talks with certain interests. The House was informed of that some time before. There has been no secret deal. Confidential talks have taken place as a result of which a White Paper is in course of preparation. It will be published in a few days and the House can express its opinion when the opportunity arises.
    Mr. Montague: My point is that some of these interests have been told what the

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    Government policy is. No one objects to consultation after the House knows what is the policy of the Government. There is very good reason for it. But here the policy has been set out and declared. It has not been a question of asking the interests concerned whether they will agree to this, that or the other, unless that was the case with the railway and shipping companies. They have done a deal with the Government, and every other interest concerned has simply been informed of the fact afterwards. The European internal company will have an authorised capital probably of £5,000,000. This may all be in the White Paper when it comes. We are ignorant of what it is to contain. We know nothing at all about the White Paper. I have seen the outside of it, but I have not had a chance of reading it. But, whatever may he inside it, no statement of policy ought to be declared until it is declared to the House of Commons. In the previous Debate there was no indication of this kind of policy with regard to the railway and shipping companies.
    Mr. Stokes: My hon. Friend says he has seen the White Paper. Where has he seen it?
    Mr. Montague: I have just seen that it is in existence. It was not given me to read at all. Naturally, it is confidential until it comes to the House of Commons. I am not betraying any confidence. The Government could not offer independent operators a large interest, but they might participate if they wished up to five per cent. of the authorised capital, with no guarantee of representation on the Board. They could invest as independent units or as an entity. In other words, they could buy shares. I am not concerned about the independent operators as such. I do not believe in independent operation. I think this ought to be a public concern and have nothing to do with private enterprise at all. But some of these people have been pioneers and have sacrificed a great deal in the early days for civil aviation and they simply have this scheme flung at them without any chance of even expressing their views other than on a fait accompli.
    I am sorry to rely upon newspaper evidence, but perhaps it is not far from correct. One newspaper said that the railway companies are to have 50 per cent. interest, the shipping companies 25
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    to 30 per cent. and B.O.A.C. the remainder, except for the 5 per cent. that the independent operators may happen to invest. That is a scandal. We are going to hand over Civil Aviation, internal and as far as the Empire is concerned, to the railroad and shipping companies.
    What is the motive behind the railway and shipping companies? It is blazoned in the history of those industries—the railways, in particular. It always has been, in the case of canals and road haulage and everything else, to do away with and to smother competition with their own interests. The argument is that these people have had a great amount of experience in transport. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) on Friday spoke of fabricated pips in raspberry jam. It seems to me that the independent operators are getting the pips or, if another figure of speech may be used, they have been "sold a pup." So you may have pips or pups, whichever you like. In America it is illegal for the proprietors of surface transport of any kind, railways, shipping or anything else, to take part in civil aviation. The Civil Aeronautics Board under the Department of Commerce, which is equal to our Board of Trade, has always resisted the mingling of air and surface transport interests. There were two notable cases in their refusal to allow Pan-American Airways to join forces with the Matson Line on the San Francisco-Honolulu route and their ruling that American Export Shipping lines must renounce any financial interest and control of American export air lines. I do not think anyone can say that Civil Aviation in America is going behind as the result of that policy. America is dead set against the participation of shipping and railway interests, and yet we are following the course I have prescribed.
    This idea that railway and shipping companies have vast experience in transport is "all my eye and Betty Martin." Pepys, in his Diary, refers to one of the earlier strikes. He went out one morning and found that he could not take a barge from the City to Westminster because the watermen of the Thames had struck work as a protest against the new-fangled hackney coaches. The watermen of the Thames of those days had as much right to talk about transport experience in respect of hackney coaches as the railway and shipping companies have in respect

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    of Civil Aviation. What they are after, of course, is a subsidy. They want the State to guarantee them against competition, and to guarantee them without any risk to themselves by means of State subsidies. Does anybody deny that? Major Mayo, who is the technical adviser to the Eastern group of Shipping Companies and Shipping Air Lines Ltd., wrote an article in the "Shipping World" in which he "blew the gaff." He said:
    "We must face up to the hard fact that in the very case where air transport can offer the greatest benefit to the travellers—the case where the saving of time is greatest—the economic fare level will be too high for the large majority of potential passengers. If, therefore, it is decided as a matter of State policy that long-distance air travel must be brought within the reach of a reasonably wide public, there must be some form of direct or indirect subsidisation for the passenger component of the traffic. Particular services may show exceptional characteristics, but there is no escaping the two fundamentals that the cost per capacity-ton-mile increases with stage length"—
    that is because if you have to have a lot of gas you cannot have passenger freights—
    "and that the ability of the public to pay an economic fare decreases as the total distance increases."
    That is what these companies are after, just as what they have been after in the whole history of this country is to get State support to safeguard their interests against any competition from outside. That is all their concern about aviation. We do not forget, and I am sure the Secretary of State does not forget, the attempted blackmail on the part of the railway companies with regard to the travel agencies. They put a pistol to their heads, and said: "You will get no advantage from us unless you agree to a monopoly of our air services." That is the spirit and background of the railway companies in respect of aviation.
    Hon. Members have said that the Labour Party's policy has been altered. It has not been altered at all. The newspaper with which the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter) is associated made a statement last week-end that this arrangement was a compromise between the Socialist Party and the Government. I can assure the House that it is nothing of the kind. If it were such a compromise, I for one would denounce it. The Labour Party has always stood for public
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    enterprise. The kind of public enterprise that some people stand for is a slight participation of B.O.A.C. in a set up of that character. It means monopoly. It means prefabrication, back stairs influences and a game of poker, with the national interests and world peace as counters. We of the Labour Party denounce that policy, and I make no apology for raising the question again under the new circumstances, which indicate that things are very dangerous for the future not only of civil aviation but of the constitutional liberties of this country.
    1.35 p.m.
    Wing-Commander Roland Robinson: I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) into the controversial field of Civil Aviation. Unlike him, I have not even had the privilege of seeing the outside of the draft of the White Paper. I do not agree with all that he said, but it may be that after we have seen what is in the White Paper hon. Members may be able to speak with greater knowledge of the true position. I want to follow the speech of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. He could this year speak with real pride of the achievements of the Royal Air Force, and I feel that his speech gave the House some knowledge and meaning of the place and importance of air power in modem warfare. He was able to give us striking examples from practically every theatre to prove the great versatility of the men of the air. I was interested when he referred to the sinking of the "Tirpitz" by two squadrons of Bomber Command under Wing-Commander Tait. It was a great achievement, and I feel that it should cause us to think on the various functions of our Forces after the war arid as to which are to be the best offensive and the best defensive weapons. One of the most interesting comparisons has been afforded by the recent big American naval battles in the Pacific against the Japanese. We read of large numbers of big and small vessels being sunk, and a more detailed analysis of the reports shows that practically every one of the ships was sunk by air power.
    We have seen, too, the use of air power in evading the submarine menace. The submarine menace has been handled from two sides—from the air and from the sea. I should like to hear in the reply some statement which would give a comparison of the number of sightings and sinkings

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    which have been made by surface craft and by aircraft. The House should know that, because we have to assess the relative importance of these two services when we come to-the question of allocation of power after the war. We have seen other good examples of the use of air power. In Burma striking work is being done by our Tactical Air Force. I believe that so great is their accuracy that they are entrusted with work much nearer to our front line than our own artillery. We have seen this year, too, some of the great preparations for offensives which have been made by the Air Forces. The Italian offensive before Cassino was opened by one of the greatest programmes of railway and road interdiction that there has ever been. Bridge after bridge was destroyed, and roads, railways and tunnels were blocked so that the supply of the German armies was an impossibility and the offensive work of our Armies was made much easier. We saw the same thing in France. We saw the real value of the great strategic offensive which had been waged by our own Bomber Command and by the 8th and 15th American Air Forces. It was then that we began to reap the real benefit of the tremendous work of destruction which had been done upon the German armaments industry. In February of last year we had done so much damage to the German aircraft industry that it could not muster air power to lay against our own forces as they were landing on D-Day and after, and they had nothing to send to this country to smash up the great bases from which we were launching this offensive. That work of strategical offence against lines of communication has made so very much possible.
    I think, too, of the flexibility of our forces when we realise that from this country we can go right across to the far side of Europe and play our part in the Russian offensive by attacking and disorganising the German communications ahead of the Russian Armies. I was interested when the Secretary of State spoke of the great work that is done on supply. The dropping programmes of the Royal Air Force have been one of the outstanding contributions of the war. Not only have they helped our own armies in the field, but have made possible the great successes of the partisan movements over the whole of Europe. In air power we have a real war-winning weapon, and it
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    is our overwhelming air superiority which has made so much of our success in the field possible. I cannot help thinking of a remark made by General Eaker, the Allied Air Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean, a month or so ago, when he said, "I wonder what the position would have been if the Germans had had the same overwhelming air superiority instead of us." It would, indeed, have been very different indeed.
    Air superiority has been a war-winning weapon, and I believe that in this war it has been the greatest factor. How are we to make use of it in the future? In the event of any future war we will have to consider, in addition to air power, a new factor, weapon power. What is to happen with the development of the flying bomb and the rocket. Who is to have the responsibility for looking after this matter? Obviously, we must have research into these new weapons. Will it be one of the responsibilities of the Air Force, or is it to be left to someone else? If so, to whom? I would like the Under-Secretary to tell us something about the post-war organisation of the Royal Air Force. I believe that we can use our air power for the preservation of peace, but peace through air power can only he achieved if we are ready for action on the day that the emergency arises. It will not do if our preparations are such that we can only be ready some six months later. The moment the sore spot appears our forces must come into action, and in that way prevent a large war from developing.
    Coming to the immediate future, I would like to know what part air power will play in the occupation of Germany. The occupation of Germany can call for very large forces, and my plea is that we should not lock up unnecessarily manpower in Germany. The men want to come back, and we need them for the reconstruction of our country and for the resumption of the ordinary everyday activities of the people. We ought to do the occupational job in Germany in the most economical way possible, and that is where the Air Force can come in. Our military Government must know what is going on and they must watch the people of Germany. Cannot we use the Air Force as the eyes of the occupational authorities? They have done wonderful work on photo-reconnaissance throughout the war. In spite of enemy fighters and

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    flak, we have been flying over Germany and occupied territory day after day, bringing back photographs which now have such minute details that our interpreters can tell exactly what is going on. When we occupy Germany will these aircraft continue to do that work? They will be able to get their pictures much easier and better, for there will be no flak or fighters to impede them. They should be able to give a complete photographic report of what goes on in Germany. Then, when a sore spot arises we shall have our offensive weapons in the air which can remove it quickly and well.
    There will be a large number of personnel who will be redundant with the end of the war in Germany. Many of them would like to stay in the Forces in some capacity. In the Royal Air Force now there is a great wealth of brain power and administrative experience. Will it be open for Royal Air Force officers to take their part in the administration of Germany during the next few years, or will these positions be given exclusively to those who are under the governing power of the Army?
    On a long-term policy for the future, I want to be sure that shall move with the times. I would like to have an assurance that we shall give the greatest possible backing to the "back-room boys", both now and after the war. We cannot spend too much money on research. The Germans have been very smart about it and it has done wonders for them, particularly in regard to jet fighters, V.1, and V.2 and numerous other weapons. We must get ahead with the times. Let us not praise the back-room boys in war only, but back them up, so that they can continue their job. There are many things which we can develop and great work lies ahead for those men.
    Will the character of our Air Force change very much after the war? What steps are we to take for the purpose of recruiting its strength? No doubt regular recruits will come along, both conscript and voluntary, but wherever possible we shall retain the voluntary character of our Air Force. There are masses of boys in the country who go into the A.T.C. because they want to join the Air Force of the future. When they have given their time voluntarily in that way
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    can we not give them some guarantee that they will have an opportunity to play their part in the Royal Air Force? Are we going to develop our staff colleges? We shall have three types of people serving in the Royal Air Force—the short-term people who come in under conscription; the long-term people who want to make it their career; then, presumably, we shall also have medium-term men, such as we had in peace time, consisting of volunteers. We have to make the Service attractive to them. We want them to know that the time spent in the Service will be a help and not a hindrance to them in their future careers. Let us find out what sort of career those people want in the future, and assist them to train for it while they are in the Service. Let people know that we train the best engineers, the best motor mechanics as well as pilots, that our radio men and administrators are of the finest quality, and that men can go straight from the Air Force into industry. Can we not link up our Service with industry, commerce. the professions and even the Civil Service so that it become a well-known fact that a man can go from the medium-term service of the R.A.F. into any one of those occupations, for his training has been good and takes him right ahead into whatever kind of life he chooses?
    During the war we have seen the greatest example of co-operation that there ever has been among the peoples of the world. There is a sort of comradeship of men of the air. The vast open spaces of the air know no national boundary at all. It has been my privilege to serve not only with British colleagues but with Belgian, French, Dutch, Norwegian and many other nationalities, all in the common service of the Royal Air Force. We also have had in our own country the great American Air Force and we have seen how we can work with them and have formed a real friendship. Is it going to be possible for us to retain this friendly atmosphere? I hope we do not lose it, but will develop the friendship now existing among the nations and will try to see that, after the war, British, Continental and American Forces continue to mix.
    A very good suggestion has been made in another place. Could we not, after the war, appoint training airfields in this country to be available for visits from squadrons, say from France, Holland,

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    Belgium or Norway? In the same way they would appoint some of their airfields to be available for our visiting squadrons so that it could be part of our flying training to go from one country to another and renew our friendships. While there they can then exchange experiences; and that can only be for the good. It ought to be possible, without too much red-tape. The squadrons should move following arrangements between commanding officers. The air crews should only need written authority from their commanding officer and their uniform would be their passport. This happens regularly in war time; why not in peace time too? If our airmen simply fly up and down this country they do not get anything like the kind of experience they need. Could we not have regional agreements for visits along these lines in North-Western Europe with our many Allies, in the Middle East with Russia, in the Pacific with the United States of America?
    We have developed a great deal of common organisation among our Forces during the war. Cannot we make an agreement for the continuation of this? We should have common regulations about aerodromes and landing procedure. We should use the same forms of signalling and radio procedure. Though types of aircraft may vary cannot we have certain standard equipment in our aircraft such as guns and ammunition, so that in an emergency one country could make good the deficiency of another? Let us agree to continue the exchange of information and ideas with our friends as freely as we have done during the war. Let us exchange both students and lecturers among our staff colleges. Let selected American and Allied officers attend our staff colleges so that we in turn may be invited to theirs. Let us develop our Air Force on practical lines in cooperation with our friends. We have in our hands great power. Let us use it well.
    1.54 p.m.
    Captain Peter Macdonald: The hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken made some extremely interesting suggestions regarding the future, and on the question of liaison between ourselves and our present and future Allies, as well as on air policy. Generally speaking, I know of nobody in this House better qualified than my hon. Friend to make suggestions of that kind,
    1882
    because of his very fine record of service as a liaison officer in this war. He done a very good job in that capacity in looking after one of our Allies, and any suggestion that he makes regarding the future is well deserving of consideration.
    There are one or two points on which I should like a reply from the Minister when he winds up the Debate. It was very interesting to hear the Secretary of State make that wonderful and eloquent review of Air Force activities for the past year. It brought my mind back to the days of 1939 and 1940 when I was associated with that gallant Service. Comparing the position now with the situation in which we were then, it is evident that a great change, almost a revolution, has taken place. To-day we are in such a position as regards manpower that the Service is able to cut down the number of air crews training. The drop is because casualties were not as heavy as was expected. We all welcomed that news. But it is a great disappointment to many people that men of the Empire Air Training Scheme have been told that there is no place for them in the future of the Royal Air Force. I know it is a bitter disappointment to these young men. The Air Training Corps, who hoped to be absorbed into the Royal Air Force, have also been told that their services will no longer be needed. I know they have put in very hard work. Many of them work in the factories and give their week-ends to training, and they have reached a very high state of efficiency. It is a pity they should have to be told that they are not to be absorbed into the R.A.F. I understand that it depends upon the allocation of manpower, which the R.A.F. are allowed.
    I should like to know whether the prisoners of war who are in Germany and other places will be given an opportunity to volunteer for the regular Air Force. I know that one or two of my former colleagues are prisoners of war, and they are rather disturbed about this point, and are very anxious that they should be given a chance to serve in the R.A.F. I think that they should be given at least an equal chance with anybody else.
    Then there is the question of the absorption of all those people who are redundant for operations to-day. Their services should be utilised to the utmost, and there I see an opportunity in Transport

    1883
    Command. On this subject of Transport Command, I would like to ask one or two questions. It has been laid down already that until such time as civil aviation can take its proper place and undertake its future functions, until it has aircraft, until, at any rate, the war in Europe is over, the R.A.F. must carry on a great deal of the work formerly done by the B.O.A.C. To-day a great many passengers are being carried by Transport Command. I admit they are all priority passengers, but a great number of people are being transported who used to be carried by civil air services. I have made criticisms on more than one occasion previously, and have pointed out the importance and necessity of having decent services on the ground for looking after passengers. That is where we have failed in the past, and that is where our American competitors in Civil Aviation have always excelled. I have travelled a great many thousands of miles on Pan-American Airway services. Their ground facilities for looking after passengers are first-class. We have not altogether failed in that direction. In many places we have even exceeded the service of our competitors, but, on the whole, our services have not been up to the standard they should have attained. We have not devoted to that aspect of Civil Aviaion the attention we should have given it.
    I have had an opportunity of seeing one or two or more of the staging posts that have been set up by Transport Command in liberated countries such as France, Belgium and Greece, and I was not at all pleased or happy about some of them. In cases where the officer in charge was keen, and took an interest in his branch of the service, and where perhaps he had an eye to the future and aspirations as a transport operator, you generally found he put up a pretty good show. But I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend the Under-Secretary that one or two of his transport staging posts require attention immediately. I mention one, Marseilles East, which he has probably heard about. There, I admit, the situation is difficult. The Germans sabotaged everything they could when they pulled out. They sabotaged everything on the aerodrome. They left the "Rathal" that I gather was still flourishing up to the last moment of their departure; they did not blow that up,
    1884
    but the water supply, the hangars, the electric lighting and that sort of thing were destroyed by the Germans before they pulled out. There has since been time, however, to have had those things put right. A great many passengers are put down there, and they ought to have better accomodation than is there to-day. When the Prime Minister goes abroad to various conferences, he has large parties following him, women secretaries and other people, who have to travel in very awkward circumstances sometimes, and when they are put down at a place like Marseilles East they are shocked and horrified to find what discomfort they have to put up with; and it is not necessary. I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will assure me that action is being taken in that particular case.
    I shall not try to make a dissertation to-day on Civil Aviation. Unlike my hon. Friend who spoke for the Labour Party, I have not had access to these secret documents to which he referred. Quite frankly, I cannot see how we are expected to debate this question to-day, because as far as I am concerned, although I have seen some newspaper reports, I have also seen newspaper denials of those reports. It is an extraordinary situation that an hon. Member of the experience of my hon. Friend should speak for the Labour Party, and embark upon a personal attack on a Minister, and quote secret minutes that have come into his possession. I do not intend to follow him, but I would like to know the source from which his information has come.
    thought that the last Debate on civil Aviation did authorise the Minister to take steps to negotiate with people who are concerned with Civil Aviation, or who wish to be concerned with it. The Minister was appointed for that purpose—to negotiate with interested parties and to formulate a policy for Civil Aviation. I gather that that is about all he has been trying to do.
    Mr. Bowles: I cannot remember exactly on what issue the Debate took place, but no policy was being authorised. The Minister of Aircraft Production wound up, and in the course of his speech said that Lord Swinton would consult with certain interests. That was not an endorsement.
    Captain Macdonald: I was here and took part in the Debate, and I and every other speaker suggested that Lord

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    Swinton should take action with regard to a policy for civil aviation. That is why I understand he was appointed as Minister.
    I fail to see why an hon. Member should come to the House to-day and accuse the Minister of some nefarious practices, and of treating this House of Commons with contempt in not revealing his policy before it was revealed to the general public. I should be very surprised if Lord Swinton gave his White Paper secrets to the Press before they went before the Cabinet. Yet we are led to believe from the hon. Member's speech that is what did happen. I would like to know, from whoever answers for the Government, what are the real facts. For my part I am quite happy to wait until the White Paper is published in a few days' time. Then let us have a Debate. But meantime let us steer away from that discussion to-day. We do not want it mixed up with the proud and splendid record of the Royal Air Force in the past years. Let us deal in this Debate with matters outside Civil Aviation. We have also the question of the A.T.C. to consider on an Amendment to that Motion, and I should have thought that was enough to occupy us for one day. I have asked a few questions and I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will he able to give the replies to them before the Debate closes.
    2.10 p.m.
    Mr. Bowles: I agree with the line taken by my hon. and gallant Friend on the question of Civil Aviation. I think all we have had is intelligent anticipation from the newspapers about what is likely to be contained in the White Paper, which I understand is to be published in the next two or three days. I asked the Leader of the House when he announced this Debate would take place, whether he could arrange for the White Paper to be published by now. I think he has had some difficulties which perhaps not anticipate, and we have not got it. Perhaps I may be allowed to quote an item from "The Times" of this morning, a telegram from Washington, on this question of civil aviation, for the Government to bear in mind in the event of the possibility of their changing what has been understood. It says:
    "The United States Department of Justice is opposed to single-company operation of American international air transport.…
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    The Department also opposes the ownership or control of air lines by companies controlling other forms of transport."
    I have advocated, probably almost
    ad nauseam to this House—[Interruption]—I am sorry, but the hon. Member has similarly advocated a policy which to my mind is most dangerous. My advocacy was against the railway companies or shipping companies having anything to do with the running of this service. I wish the Government would bear in mind that the dominant consideration should be the interests of the consumer and not the interests of the operator. I have every fear as to the contents of the White Paper because of the Conservative domination of the present Government. I would like to say, as I did in my last speech on this question, that I hope the Leader of the Labour Party and other Members of the Labour Party who are in the Government, will not endorse a policy which is in conflict with the policy of the Labour Party, as endorsed by annual conferences. This is one of the problems which arise when a Coalition Government, formed to wage the war, goes into questions of postwar reconstruction. I will not say anything further about that subject, because I think the Leader of the House will give us a Debate on civil aviation soon after the publication of the White Paper.
    I have a Question on the Order Paper for to-morrow to the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Aircraft Production to the following effect:
    "To ask the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Aircraft Production, as representing the Ministry of Civil Aviation, whether he is satisfied that the condition as to using the Shannon in the air agreement signed between Eire and the U.S.A. is not inconsistent with the Air Transit Agreement signed at Chicago."
    As he is answering the Question tomorrow perhaps I might make a little clearer what is in my mind in asking that Question. Unfortunately the hon. Member does not quite know what are the full implications. I am trying to help the Parliamentary Secretary, arid also perhaps to save supplementary questions. There is a report of the full text of this Eire-U.S.A. Agreement in the "Irish Independent" of 5th February, and the main point is the grant of reciprocal rights to air transport operators to fly over land for technical purposes, and the right of commercial entry, for the purposes of international traffic, in Eire, on routes from the U.S.A. to Eire and places beyond, in both directions. It is a condition of the

    1887
    agreement that on such routes the Shannon must be used as the first port of arrival in Europe, and the last port of departure from Europe. The hon. Members for Scottish constituencies who have been talking about the importance of Prestwick might be interested in this particular point. There is no definition of the "right of commercial entry for purposes of international traffic," but presumably it means the third, fourth and fifth freedoms. The same phrase has been used in the other recent bilateral agreements made between the United States and Sweden and other countries. The condition as to using the Shannon is most remarkable. I allege it is inconsistent with the Air Transit Agreement—the two freedoms—signed by the U.S.A. at Chicago, but not by Eire. And there is a preamble to it, as if it were excusing this defection on the ground that it is needed for fuel economy in the present stage of aeronautics. I hope that by to-morrow my hon. Friend will be able to take advice, so that he will be able to answer the question—about which I have some doubts. [Interruption.] It is not possible to explain everything in a Parliamentary question.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Charles Williams): Would it not be better to leave this matter until to-morrow? These are Air Ministry Estimates, and, while agreements between the United States and Southern Ireland may have some relation to the Estimates, to go into them at great length would seem to be going rather beyond the actual Estimates themselves.
    Mr. Bowles: With great respect, I do not quite see why that is so. The Minister for Civil Aviation, whose salary is being voted under these Estimates, so far as I can gather from a footnote to the White Paper, resisted, on behalf of this country, something that Eire has done, by entering into an agreement with the United States. That is a matter which I think should be brought to the notice of the House and of the Minister for Civil Aviation. I will say no more on the question of Civil Aviation.
    Slowly coming to the Air Force, perhaps I might ask my right hon. Friend a question about Transport Command. He, as much as anyone else in this House, deplores what seems to be a series of unfortunate accidents recently, for which
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    Transport Command is responsible. I think that this question is important. To what extent do pilots who are taken off operations and put on Transport Command go through a conversion course? I am informed by friends of mine, who have certain experience, that, for instance, aircraft when taking off consume petrol, in certain cases, at something like 240 gallons an hour. Unless the pilot is experienced, and does something about it, he will go on consuming petrol at that rate, with the result that he will empty his tanks, although normally that petrol would have carried him over the whole journey that he had instructions to fly.
    I had the temerity to interrupt my right hon. Friend's very illuminating review, which I am sure was very interesting to the House and will be read outside with great appreciation. I was trying to put before him a view which I find is shared, it may be ignorantly, by many people, about this question of our air superiority over Germany. Two points are involved. We are told that we have complete air supremacy. Yet General Eisenhower said, not long ago, that it would be. his object to try to destroy the Germans West of the Rhine, without letting them cross the Rhine. Here we have magnificent fighting men on the land and first-class fighting men in the air, and yet Rundstedt is able to get a great proportion of his troops back across the Rhine. Whether some crossed by the Hohenzollern Bridge in Cologne I am not sure, but it seems, by the Press this morning, that a great proportion were able to get across the river by barges. Very much in the public mind is the question of why it was possible for Rundstedt to evacuate so many of his troops across the Rhine, when we have this air supremacy.
    Nobody has greater admiration than Members of this House for the brilliance and bravery of the men in the R.A.F., particularly the pilots, bombers, and other members of aircrews. They have been bombing Germany for years. The right hon. Gentleman said that from 1941 it was decided to go in for wholesale bombing. He also said that they were bombing with deadly accuracy. I am not trying to be awkward, but to ask a question to which I think the public will appreciate an answer. We remember our eight months in London. We remember the nights in Coventry, and the many nights in Birmingham, Plymouth, Hull, and so on,

    1889
    when whole townships were very considerably upset. Our bombing, the right hon. Gentleman has said, has been on something like 50 times as great a scale, and it has been going on for four or five years.
    Sir A. Sinclair: I did not say that it was on 50 times the scale of the German attack. That may be true, but I have not calculated that. I said that I believed we were hitting Germany about 50 times as hard as we were in 1941.
    Mr. Bowles: The point is that people would like to know why this great resistance is being put up by the German people. Are their factories, to a large extent, below ground; or have they been moved farther West; or have they shelter such as we never had in this country? I am just asking for information. I think the public would be interested to know why they are able to put up with this tremendous thrashing, which is taking place almost every hour of the 24.
    There is another matter which I have raised before. I would like the right hon. Gentleman, as head of the Air Council, to tell us exactly why he keeps advising the Home Secretary to continue the blackout. I raised this matter once on the Adjournment—it was a very short Adjournment, because I was not able to start until something like 14 minutes past six, because of the Division; and I let the Home Secretary have the same time as I took myself. Do the right hon. Gentleman and his advisers believe that bomber pilots rely on anything but navigational aid? Does he believe that lighting on the ground is any assistance to them at all? He shakes his head, and I believe he agrees that it is not.
    Sir A. Sinclair: I shake my head to show that I do believe that it is of some assistance.
    Mr. Bowles: I would be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would say whether the Air Council are still so convinced about this. I am told that at 1,500 feet the hall-blackout which is now allowed and the street lighting which is now allowed are quite visible to pilots, and I am also told that the pilots do not depend at all on lights. I am assured that any person who has had any training at all in flying can find London with the very greatest ease. I believe that the great mass of
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    the people of London, and of other parts of the country, would be quite prepared to take it. We had a perfect blackout from 1939 to May, 1941.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): The black-out is a matter for the Home Secretary. I do not think the hon. Member ought to develop the matter.
    Mr. Stokes: Surely it is common knowledge among people who are worried about this black-out that whenever we appeal to the Home Secretary he says that he has to do it because the Air Ministry make him.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: As I said, the matter is primarily one for the Home Office. The hon. Member is no doubt entitled to ask the Minister a question about the technicalities of the advice that may have been given, but he is not entitled to put on the Minister for Air the responsibility for imposing the black-out.
    Mr. Bowles: I am asking him to explain why his Council are giving the Home-Secretary this advice. The right hon. Gentleman said to-day, and the Home Secretary referred to the matter in an earlier statement, that Heinkels are releasing V.1's from the air, and that if the Heinkel pilot can see London, it makes his job much easier. I am told that there is no truth in that, and that any pilot flying from Germany or Holland knows exactly the direction in which he is going, and where London is, and that, in any case, lights do not make the slightest difference. I will not pursue that matter any further, but this is the gentleman who advises that the country should remain in a state of perpetual darkness. I think it is time he put an end to this policy of strength through misery.
    2.27 p.m.
    Major York: I hope that the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles). will forgive me if I do not follow him into what is to happen at Question Time tomorrow. I want to go back to the speech of the Secretary of State, and to say how. very much we all appreciate the story which the right hon. Gentleman had to tell. One category of the Royal Air Force has not had the full recognition that it deserves. That category is the crew of the bomber. I believe that fighter work must indeed be great fun, like fox-hunting, where you are out by yourself on your good horse. But when you come to

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    bombing in cold blood sitting for four or five hours, in a narrow, uncomfortable cockpit or rear-gun turret, with your heart certainly anywhere but near its proper place, that is indeed one of the most difficult moral performances that anybody has to face in this war. I know a good many of these men. I live in an area surrounded by bomber stations, and I can see that they get weary. It is not a physical weariness; it is a mental weariness. But they go on, and they only say, "Well, it is part of the day's work." One man to whom I was talking last week had done four raids on Germany in three days, and even then he did not get a rest. We owe a great debt to these men, which has never been fully paid. I would like to pay my contribution towards it.
    Another point, to which my right hon. Friend referred, is the contribution of the Dominions to the war effort. He did lift a corner of the veil this morning, but I fear in a somewhat introductory capacity. I hope to address myself to that particular subject, because, had my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr. Touche) met with an accident, I might have had the pleasure of moving an Amendment to that effect, but, fortunately, my hon. Friend has survived, and so I am prohibited from doing so. It is of particular interest to me as Member for Ripon to discuss the question of the Dominions Air Forces' contribution to the war effort, for it is to my constituency that air crews returning from the air training scheme, or a large number of them, are first sent on their return, and we know large numbers of them, although acquaintance is very short lived. Secondly, one of our greatest and most generous Dominions has a very large formation also located in part, at any rate, of my constituency, and I had the pleasure, the other day, of going to a British Council party where I met Canadians, New Zealanders, Rhodesians and men from Trinidad and numerous other parts of the Empire, gathered together in a party with a large number of men of the Allied Nations. It was, indeed, a cosmopolitan assembly. Therefore, we in Ripon do know a great deal about the contribution which the Dominions have made to the Royal Air Force.
    I think their contribution can be divided into three parts. First, there are the men and the planes. My right hon. Friend gave us an idea of the numbers who had
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    been through the air training scheme, but I would ask if it is not time now to give us, first, some information upon the actual members engaged, at any rate, in the early part of the war upon operational and ground duties and, secondly, information upon the planes which our Dominions have turned out. With regard to the planes, I believe that their main contribution has been that of bombers, and I hope that we might have more details that would show how great their contribution has been in regard to this. Of course, some Dominions have had not such a glorious role as others, but have been making trainer planes rather than bombers. Nevertheless, the whole Empire has been working, in one way and another, towards the main war effort, and I feel it is time that this country and the other members of the Empire knew the contribution made by each part.
    The second main category is that of training facilities. No one will deny the tremendous success of the Empire Air Training Scheme to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. There can be no doubt that this has had a far-reaching effect on the war effort. It has had, moreover, a wider and more permanent effect. We see our friends and relations going off to South Africa or Canada, or wherever else they go, getting to know the people who live there, and enlarging their knowledge of the Empire. Similarly, we see the men from the Empire getting to know a great deal more about us, which is of equal importance. Of all the men to whom I have talked, who have gone from this country into the Empire Air Training Scheme, I do not think there is one who has not expressed the idea that he would like to go back to the country in which he was trained for the Royal Air Force. There is, however, a danger in that, for we can ill afford the large number of men involved. Nevertheless, if migration is required, and if it is encouraged as it should be encouraged, then we know that the men who will go first will be those who were trained in the Empire Air Training Scheme. I understand that this scheme is now on the decrease, as it must be. I hope that we may now have a great deal more detail, and, perhaps, one of those well-illustrated publications which the Ministry of Information issues, showing not only the bare bones of the work but the countries in which these men lived. It would

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    be a valuable contribution towards Empire unity. My final plea, on this point, is that these air training schemes should not be closed. I believe that there is work for them to do yet and I hope it will be possible to keep them going.
    The third point is in regard to hospitality. I think this country owes a very deep debt of gratitude to the Dominions for the way in which they have accepted and shown hospitality to the men sent to them. I know that Canada is always receiving great praise from hon. Members of this House, but the way in which these men of ours have been entertained, shown the country and, generally looked after, while in Canada is, indeed, of a high order, and there is no man to whom I have spoken, who has not expressed the highest praise for the Canadians, both in their war effort and in the kindness of their hearts.
    There have been great results from this help, and I think we can draw certain lessons from it. The first, and perhaps the greatest, is that the Empire Air Forces are one co-ordinated air force. I believe that, now, they are as closely interwoven as the various Navies of the Empire were before the war, and, in air staff, inter-dependence, strategy and tactics and in every conceivable way, they are almost one single force. I believe another lesson to be learned from it is that, however great the effort of the Dominions may be, the main responsibility does lie and always will lie with this country, and we must see to it that we carry it out a great deal more thoroughly than we have done in the past. The hon. and gallant Member for Blackpool (Wing-Commander Robinson) touched upon the question of research and development being co-ordinated with our Allies. I see great historic difficulties in that, particularly with our Allies in Europe, but I feel that these activities should be co-ordinated completely so far as the Empire is concerned, and that, although we will have to bear the main weight, the contribution of the rest of the Empire should be encouraged and utilised.
    A third lesson is that of the co-ordination of training. I am completely convinced, as I think most hon. Members of this House must be, that the continuation of this co-ordination is vital. Instructors should be interchangeable, so that you might have a British instructor
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    in Australia, or a South African instructor in Canada. War planes and training planes might well be standardised, as, indeed, their equipment should be, and I hope that the Empire Air Training scheme will be continued, even if it is on a reduced scale. I go one stage further than that and ask if there is any reason why, considering the difficulties of air training in this country, all operational training should not take place in the wider stretches of the Empire rather than in this country. We know what a great advantage it has been to the Air Force trainees, for instance, in Canada, to know that they were able to exercise over vast open spaces, whereas, in this country, training is carried on at the expense of a great number of accidents. Though those accidents may be unavoidable, there is no doubt that, in the less densely populated countries of the Empire training could be done very much better and more safely.
    My final point is in regard to the interchange of squadrons. I see no reason why British squadrons should not he stationed in the various Dominions and Colonies and in India, and, similarly, why Empire squadrons should not be stationed in this country. The results of all this integration and co-ordination, must be to strengthen the ties of empire, and it must help understanding of the great underlying motives of all air defence—the security of the Empire. It must also help in Empire Civil Aviation, because, although the use of pilots and crews for civilian aircraft is not as easy as it looks upon the surface, yet all the equipment and ground staff, radio-location outfits and all the other matters connected with running Civil Aviation, are so closely connected with training in the Royal Air Force, that it cannot but have a very great effect upon civil flying within the Empire.
    I have, as I think we all have on this side of the House, a very deep sense of our role of Empire. I believe that we should use every means within our power to continue that unity and cohesion. I feel that we should bend the stern necessities of war to the wider and more permanent aspects of the matter and help on that duty of girdling the world with peace-loving and freedom-loving nations. I believe that the Empire Air Forces are the modern instrument to carry that out, and I call

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    upon the Government to give a lead to that policy.
    2.43 p.m.
    Mr. Stokes: I was very glad that the Minister paid a tribute to the contribution which the Dominions have made to our great air training schemes. To the right hon. Gentleman's tributes to them, and to the work of our own men, I wish to add my humble voice. If the Minister will not think me very personal in saying so, I do not think his speech did justice to the epic story which he had to tell. I am sorry to join issue with him on this deplorable habit which is growing up of Ministers at that Box reading their speeches. I have heard the right hon. Gentleman, when he sat on this side of the House, make the most eloquent speeches for an almost interminable time with only half a sheet of paper. When he has a glorious story to tell, he comes down to-the House and reads us a lecture which he might just as well have had published beforehand and circulated to the House. I think this is an abominable habit and ought to be protested against on every possible occasion. In the course of his speech the right hon. Gentleman referred to the 10,000 casualties which have been sustained by Bomber Command. In the failing to which I refer he is not alone. It seems that other Service Ministers are also deplorably inadequate. They give us figures of deaths and wounds—I saw great squads of young flying men in South Wales hopping about on one leg—but they never offer one word of sympathy or compassion to the families who have been bereaved, or who have wounded sons and daughters, as the case may be. It seems to me that that ought to be their first consideration.
    The Secretary of State for Air went on to talk about the war against Japan. I have often wondered whether sufficiently adequate preparations have been made for that war. I suppose it must be obvious to everybody who has considered the situation that the war against Japan, in the main, will be a naval war. I am mindful of the shortages which we had at the beginning of the war, of what were termed dive-bombers. I suppose the American Navy will play the preponderant part in that war, but I would like some assurance from the Minister—having regard to the shortages which we heard about at the beginning of the war—that when the
    1896
    battles are in progress, we shall find our Navy equipped with adequate dive-bombers. I know he may say that that is a subject for the Admiralty Estimates to-morrow, but the Air Ministry comes into it as well.
    Recently I had the great privilege of getting out of this country—I must not call it a lunatic asylum, otherwise there will be more confusion. I am talking about the country and not the House of Commons. As a result of my visit abroad I want to pay a tribute to the spirit of the airmen, to their unfailing courtesy and the help which they are always prepared to render to—as I regard myself—a wandering minstrel but with a different song to sing. I found a really serious degree of, perhaps distrust is not quite the word, but disconcertment among the troops at the idea that they are not being served up with both sides of the political story. I do not wish to refer at length to the speech I made, which seems to have caused so much annoyance at this end, except to say that they were told at the other end that it was suppressed here and not out there. I do want to say that there is a very grave danger of the men coming home with only one point of view in their minds, as represented in their Service newspapers. To show that I am right in my belief that fair treatment is not being meted out, instructions have since been issued that Members of Parliament are not to address the troops without permission—[HON. MEMBERS: "Quite right, too"]—and then only after submitting what they are going to say for censorship. I regard that as a most deplorable restriction on the right of a Member of Parliament, and I wish to enter a brief protest.
    Sir Edward Campbell: May I say that a nephew of mine heard the hon. Member's speech? He said he had never heard such awful tripe. He did not mind that, but what he did mind was that he had to be there.
    Mr. Stokes: I am not really responsible for the mentality of the hon. Member's nephew. I know I said a lot of things that were not popular, but I also said a lot that were. I protest against this arbitrary restriction.
    Mr. Tinker: The hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) has made a statement that Members of Parliament going

    1897
    overseas may not address troops without permission and that their speeches must be censored. I should like to know whether that is true or not. I consider it rather a serious matter.
    Mr. Stokes: I see the Minister will not answer, but I am glad I have an ally above the Gangway. I think that point will be threshed out at a later hour. I also was depressed—as was my hon. Friend who spoke an hour or two ago—that nothing was mentioned by the Minister about Civil Aviation. When I listened to my hon. Friend on the Front Opposition Bench talking of the secrecy that prevails in these negotiations, I was not in the least surprised that the Minister said nothing about it. I suppose we shall be served up with another cut-and-dried scheme, entered into without taking the House, as a whole, into consultation, and settled, according to my hon. Friend, by vested interests behind the scenes. We may protest, but nothing will happen because the whole thing will have gone too far, just as some of our arrangements with America will have gone too far before we are told.
    I listened also to the Minister speaking about the great accuracy of our bombing. I want to devote the few minutes more, during which I wish to speak, mainly to this subject. Unfortunately, the right hon. Gentleman has gone away.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Air (Commander Brabner): May I say that my right hon. Friend has just been called to the telephone; otherwise he would still be here.
    Mr. Stokes: I hope in the new House we shall have telephones at the Box. I thought that Ministers had such things as Parliamentary Private Secretaries to run messages for them. Although I am sorry the Minister is not here, I cannot fill in time until he comes back, and Ishall have to go on. What I regret about it is that I wanted to address the Minister. I would have been interested to hear from the Minister a rather more accurate statement and more definite information with regard to this great accuracy of which he has spoken. My hon. Friend who spoke before me, above the gangway, asked the right hon. Gentleman some very pertinent questions on the accuracy of the bombing of the Rhine bridges and the passages of the Rhine, whether by ferry or by road transport. I should have thought, if the accuracy is such as
    1898
    we are led to believe, that the Cologne railway bridge would have been down a long time ago. Of course, I do not believe in this humbug. I do not believe there is anything like the degree of accuracy which we are led to suppose from the newspaper reports, the communiqués, and the announcements over the wireless.
    I have been fortified in my belief by listening the other day to a very well-known expert talking about new weapons including such things as the V-bombs Somebody pertinently asked him what was the accuracy of the V.2. I think he overstated his case in reply. He said its accuracy was about the same as our precision bombing. I thought it a very interesting reply. I have been told by other responsible air officers that in these great night attacks—I am not talking about dive-bombers or the rocket—they do not think of aiming at a target of less than 16 square miles. I hope the right hon. Gentleman can answer me because I shall have the greatest joy in facing my informants and in coming back to the House and stating what they say in reply. Perhaps, in that way, we shall arrive at the truth one day.
    I raise this issue of bombing because I have always doubted the advantages of what I call strategic bombing. In anything I am going to say please let it be clearly understood that I am not criticising, for a single moment, any of the actions of the men who go and do these things, or their great loyalty, devotion, courage and determination. Nothing of the sort. I am merely criticising on the higher level as to what is the right policy. I questioned the usefulness of bombing on strategic grounds alone, at an early stage, and whether the manufacture of these vast machines was not deflecting war production from other more important aims. I also questioned whether the "blanket" bombing could really ever win a war. It is very noticeable that the Russians do not seem to indulge in it. The answer, of course. may be that we are doing it all for them, but I cannot really swallow that. I do not know what the moral issue is behind the Russian policy, but I can quite see the advantage to them in being able to say that it is these nasty Western capitalist States who have done all the dirty tricks, and that they have limited their bombing activities to what I call tactical bombing.

    1899
    I do not join issue on tactical questions. Where bombing is necessary for the conduct of military affairs, with military objectives, it is just too bad if civilians and old women get their guts blown into tree tops, but there it is. That is war and has got to be put up with. The question is whether at this period of the war indiscriminate bombing of large centres of populations, full of refugees, is wise. One reads the most ghastly stories of what is going on in Dresden. I know it is a German report, but I am going to read what was in the "Manchester Guardian" of yesterday:
    "Tens of thousands who lived in Dresden are now burned under its ruins. Even an attempt at identification of the victims is hopeless. What happened on that evening of February 15th? There were 1,000,000 people in Dresden, including 600,000 bombed. out evacuees and refugees from the East. The raging fires which spread irresistibly in the narrow streets killed a great many from sheer lack of oxygen."
    I agree that that may be an over-statement, but one has only to read our own correspondents' reports about Cologne to see that this account is probably not far removed from what is the case.
    Sir Wavell Wakefield: If, as I understood the hon. Member to say, bombing was not much good, has he not just shown the value of this strategic bombing?
    Mr. Stokes: I said nothing of the sort. I have always questioned whether bombing could win a war. The Russians seem to take great cities without blasting them to pieces
    Sir W. Wakefield: Perhaps I may answer my hon. Friend. No one has ever suggested that bombing could win a war on its own. It is intended to aid the war effort, and to save many hundreds of thousands, and even millions, of soldiers' lives.
    Mr. Stokes: I quite understand; I have been a soldier, too. But if I were a soldier to-day I should speak just as much in opposition to what I consider to be a perfectly foolish policy. I think its un-wisdom will be proved in the long run. I do not expect to be able to persuade the House of Commons at this stage to accept my views, but I have held these views all along and I do not propose to give them up at this stage of the war
    1900
    without adequate grounds for doing so. I leave out the moral issue. I have given up in despair trying to persuade people on that issue. On the strategic issue, what are you going to find with all the cities blasted to blazes and disease rampant? May you not well find that you will simply be overtaken by your own weapons, and that the disease, filth and poverty, which will arise, will be almost impossible either to arrest or to overcome? I wonder very much whether it is realised at this stage. I have read with horror of the raid on Berlin and of the bombed millions of refugees who have crowded into it. When I heard the Minister speak almost gloatingly of the "great crescendo of destruction" I thought what a magnificent expression for a Cabinet Minister of Great Britain at this stage of the war.
    Mr. Austin Hopkinson: I do not know whether the hon. Member is aware that the propositions which have been put forward as to the value of strategic bombing and his own views on the matter, have a very large measure of support from leading military and Air Force staff opinions?
    Mr. Stokes: I am glad of that interruption. I had, of course, heard that. The difficulty about quoting people in responsible positions in the Services is that the Gestapo get going to worm out those who have been talking to you and not very comfortable results may be inflicted upon them in their career. I have been told over and over again in my travels that, just as every military man objects to the term of "unconditional surrender," you also find responsible people in the Army and Air Force protesting against this mass and indiscriminate slaughter from the air. I am particularly hot on this question to-day because we read in the Yalta Declaration that decisions have been taken for the military steps necessary for the ultimate, complete and final destruction of the enemy. Leaving aside strategic bombing, which I question very much, and tactical bombing, with which I agree, if it is done with a reasonable measure of accuracy, there is no case whatever under any conditions, in my view, for terror bombing. I wish to read to the House a despatch from the Associated Press Correspondent from S.H.A.E.F. on 17th February. It was from S.H.A.E.F. headquarters and this is how it reads:

    1901
    "Allied Air Chiefs have made the long-awaited decision to adapt deliberate terror bombings of German populated centres as a ruthless expedient to hasten Hitler's doom. More raids such as those carried out recently by heavy bombers of the Anglo-American Air Forces on residential sections of Berlin, Dresden, Chemnitz and Kottbus are in store for the Germans for the avowed purpose of heaping more confusion on Nazi road and rail traffic and to sap German morale.
    "The all-out air war on Germany became obvious with the unprecedented daylight assault on the refugee crowded capital with civilians fleeing the Russian tide in the East."
    I did not want to read that to the House without taking some trouble to verify its authenticity. it was published very widely in America, it was put over the Paris Radio, and released by the censor at 7.30 p.m. on 17th February for publication in this country. It was objected to by some people and at 11.30 on the same night it was suppressed from publication in this country. It was said it was put out so as to get it abroad but the people here were not to be told. That is the usual way the Government treat people in this country. It was widely broadcast in America, broadcast on the Paris Radio to Germany, but not communicated to people in this country, who are, at least, supposed to be responsible for what is going on. If the people think it is true let them protest if they want to protest and let them endorse it if they want to endorse it, but this agreeing to put the policy out and then suppress it several hours later is not good enough. It is in keeping with the Quebec decision two years ago that at least 50 German cities were to be bombed out quite indiscriminately, as quoted in the "Daily Telegraph" of 19th August, 1943.
    All I want to say in conclusion is this: Is terror bombing—perhaps the Minister will answer me—now part of our policy? If so, why was this declaration from S.H.A.E.F. issued for publication and then suppressed? If it is not part of the policy, why was the statement handed out at all? And why is it that the British people are the only people who may not know what is done in their name? It is complete hypocrisy to say one thing and to do another. I join issue with the right hon. Gentleman and with the Government on this question. I think we shall live to rue the day we have done this and that, in many ways, it will stand for all time as a blot upon our escutcheon.
    3.7 p.m.
    Rear-Admiral Sir Murray Sueter: The hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) has referred to strategic bombing. I would point out that all the targets are very carefully planned by the Planning Committee. The Committee go into each target, which is of military importance necessitating the carrying out of this bombing. I submit to the House that we have confidence in our Planning Committee working under the General Staffs Committee. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Blackpool (Wing-Commander Robinson) made a very interesting speech and showed that he has a wide grasp of air matters gained during his service in the Royal Air Force. One point he mentioned was the sinking of Japanese ships by American aircraft. I was hoping that he was going to tell us whether they used bombs or torpedo aircraft in the sinking of that very large number of ships. It would be very interesting to know that, and perhaps the Under-Secretary will answer that question. It was claimed that between 50 and 6o ships were sunk, and it is not an easy matter to sink them by bombs.
    The Secretary of State for Air gave us a very fine survey of the work of the Royal Air Force from D-Day up to now. It was a great survey. He touched upon all matters connected with the various concerns and the help which the Royal Air Force gave to the Navy in sinking U-boats and so on. I would like to ask him why this is not all circulated to the public before. Once a year he comes here and makes these surveys. We have not a very good publicity staff. We ought to know more about what is going on. Only last night on the wireless a talk was given by Mr. Chester Wilmot, who talked about the wonderful work of the Army. Undoubtedly they are doing grand work but he did not once mention the Royal Air Force. Therefore, I ask the Minister whether he cannot get more experienced men on his publicity staff, so that news of the work of the Air Force can he circulated among our people a little more.
    The position is reflected somewhat in the rewards given to the Royal Air Force and I wish to draw the Minister's attention to the number of Air Marshals made during this war. The present Chief of Staff is an Air Marshal and the former Chief of Staff on retirement was made an Air Marshal. That is a total of two, but

    1903
    eight Field Marshals have been made. The Secretary of State for Air should approach a higher authority, and see if he cannot have some of his officers made Air Marshals, so that we might have nearly as many Air Marshals as we have Field Marshals. A point was made in my constituency the other day about bombers. One constituent said they were always hearing about the American bombers on the wireless. They knew that those bombers were doing great work but this constituent asked whether they could not occasionally hear the words "British bombers." Many people think that our bombers are not doing anything. I commend that suggestion to the Under-Secretary when he comes to reply. The battleship "Tirpitz" was mentioned by the Secretary of State for Air. He told us that they had new sights, and how the attack was carried out, but he did not tell us at what altitude the bombs were dropped.
    Sir A. Sinclair: I think I did say 15,000 feet.
    Sir M. Sueter: I apologise, I must have missed it. It is important, when you have a new sight, to know at what altitude the bombs are dropped. The hon. Member for Islington West (Mr. Montague) made a very interesting speech but he was a little hard on shipping and railway companies. They are interested in traffic problems, and they want a fair share of the traffic which will he available after the war. Some of them were interested in air matters before the war, and will want to continue that interest. He was a little hard on them. He had certain information; I do not know whether it was official or not. I had not had the information which he read out—I do not know where it came from—of what Lord Swinton was going to do with regard to Civil Aviation. We asked for a White Paper and the promise was given from the Front Bench opposite that we were to have one shortly on the whole question. I hope that the private operating companies which worked so well before the war and into which a great deal of capital was put, will not be thrown on one side. These men have their own interests to look after. It is very unfair to them. One or two of them were among my old officers in the Royal Naval Air Service. They put their backs into developing these private
    1904
    companies, and it is very hard on them that they should be turned down now. I hope that the Secretary of State for Air will have a word or two with Lord Swinton to see that the interests of these private operating companies are looked after.
    The question of personnel has been touched upon by various Members who have spoken. After the war I hope that those officers of the Royal Air Force who engaged in operations will, when they come back, be given some of the billets that are available and will not find those who have not had to risk themselves much, continuing to occupy the posts they now hold. It is only fair to these gallant men. This sort of thing happened after the last war when a great many officers came back from active service and found most of the posts filled, and were discouraged. I am certain that the Secretary of State for Air will look into the matter and see that these officers are properly treated.
    3.15 p.m.
    Mr. Austin Hopkinson: I intervene in this Debate this afternoon in reply to a direct challenge from the Prime Minister himself. In this House on 25th January, the hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Moelwyn Hughes) asked the Prime Minister whether he would give time to discuss the Motion standing on the Paper in his name:
    [That a Select Committee be appointed to investigate the allegations made in this House on 19th December, 1944, by the hon. Member for Mossley concerning irregularities in the administration of the Air Ministry.]
    In reply to that Question the Prime Minister said this, among other matters:
    "There are, however, in the normal course of Parliamentary business various opportunities when the question can be raised."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th January, 1945; Vol. 407, C. 962.]
    This, so I am advised by the experts on this subject, being one of those opportunities, I take it with a view to reinforcing the allegations which I then made, and particularly in view of the possibility of a Debate on the initiative of the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) on the Adjournment Motion to-morrow, with a view to pointing out to the House, when they come to discuss that Motion to-morrow, the necessity for refusing a Judicial Committee under the Tribunals Act of 1921 and insisting upon

    1905
    the inquiry being made by a Select Committee.
    I must recall the memory of hon. Members to a Debate which took place in this House on 26th October last year. In that Debate I made four definite and specific charges which I asked the Secretary of State to answer. At the risk of boring the House, I must repeat those charges because the wording of them is very important. They were these:
    "First, with the knowledge of the Commanding Officer of the unit, of the Air Commodore commanding 54 Group, and of his Senior Air Staff Officer, food produced by and for the unit was, over a long period, distributed by sale or otherwise to persons who had no claim or right to receive it."
    A very definite accusation of a comparatively small offence. The second charge was this:
    "….records of sales were kept in a book … showing the names of the recipients of the food together with the quantities, the dates, and the prices."
    The third charge, I think it will be seen, by implication was a very much more serious one than the other two:
    "….the majority of those names are of persons in official positions, in positions where they could either break the offenders, or exercise vast powers of patronage in their favour."
    The fourth charge was that:
    "….the list includes … (a)two Air Force officers of status superior to that of the Air Commodore then commanding the Group; (b) five officials of various Ministries concerned with one or other of the activities of the Group; (c) two Ministers and their immediate subordinates."
    The Secretary of State on that occasion replied:
    "All the hon. Gentlemen's charges amount to this one charge: that food was sold outside the unit contrary to the regulations of the Ministry of Food and the licence which was given by that Ministry to this unit. Yes, that charge is true.…"
    Thus I take it, and I think the House will agree to this, that the Minister on that occasion admitted the truth of all four charges. I deliberately suggested, and I think it is quite obvious that the House appreciated my intention, that the Secretary of State had been intentionally compromised by the officers concerned, and consequently had acted in a mariner which was not in the interest of the Service by, on the one hand, protecting the offenders and, on the other hand, by conferring special favours upon them. I think that implication was clear; I in tended it to be perfectly clear. The
    1906
    truth of the allegation can, I think, be established by reference to statements already recorded in the OFFICIAL REPORT, both on that occasion and subsequently, and I propose this afternoon to show the House that this is so. In process of doing so, however, I shall make several very serious further allegations against the Secretary of State, and these can be proved or disproved only by the production of official documents—there is no other way of proving or disproving these additional charges which I shall make this afternoon.
    It has been decided by the courts that a judge in court trying a charge, or a Judicial Committee under the Tribunals Act, 1921, if official papers of a Ministry are called for, cannot enforce the production of those papers. If the Minister concerned says it is not in the public interest that these papers shall be produced, the court is then powerless to compel production. I take it, however, that the House of Commons would never allow that plea to prevail against one of their own Select Committees, and if the Minister concerned refused to produce official documents necessary to prove or disprove an accusation, to such a Select Committee, I ventured to say that the House of Commons, even in its present condition, would never allow that. If they did, it would simply mean that no Minister of the Crown could be brought to book for any offence which he happened to have perpetrated and which the House of Commons regarded as serious; and no Minister of the Crown could be brought to book if the Prime Minister of the day had possession of the whole time of the House and refused to grant time for the House to discuss any Motion on those lines. It is essential that the House should bear that in mind, and not allow the Prime Minister to say that he will set up a Judicial Committee under the 1921 Act, because that would not meet the purpose in hand, and would not give the House of Commons the information which it is entitled to have.
    The House will forgive me if I refer to notes because nearly everything I say consists of quotations from the OFFICIAL REPORT. In the Debate on 26th October, the Secretary of State said:
    "Unfortunately, some of the unrationed pig meat was sold to customers outside the station … contrary to the Regulations of the Food Ministry and to the terms of the licence

    1907
    issued by the Ministry. All this happened many months ago. As soon as it came to light, about the end of last year, the Commander-in-Chief of the Command started an investigation.…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th October, 1944; Vol. 404, c. 473, 476 and 479.]
    On 15th November of last year, the Joint Under-Secretary of State replying for the Secretary of State to a question said:
    "These irregularities did take place."
    The same irregularities were detailed in my question as follow:
    "… false entries on Form 658; false descriptions of the contents of packages of foodstuffs illegally distributed; illegal consumption of motor fuel; illegal use of vehicles and employment of R.A.F. personnel for private purposes."
    As I say, the Joint Under-Secretary of State admitted that the irregularities took place and he went on to say:
    "They were exposed by the officers concerned, who actually asked, two months before our inquiries started, that an investigation should take place in order to see that everything was in order."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1944; Vol. 404, C. 1935 and 1936.]
    On 6th December, in answer to another Question, the Secretary of State said:
    "A request for an investigation into the management of the farm including the application of the Food Regulations was made by the commanding officer of the station to the Group Headquarters in an official minute on 20th October, 1943."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th December, 1944; Vol. 406, C. 522.]
    I think I am correct in saying this, and I speak subject to correction from the Secretary of State, that it is evident from the above that the House was given to understand that the irregularities—that is to say these definite offences—were first exposed on 20th October, 1943, by Group Captain Gilligan to Air Commodo4e Critchley, both of those officers having been recipients of the foodstuffs over a considerable period, and therefore perfectly well aware of what had been taking place. Furthermore, as soon as this exposure was made, the Commander-in Chief of the Command started an investigation. "As soon as" means, therefore, two months later—at the end of the year, the exposure by these officers having taken place on 20th October.
    Now in actual fact the information was laid on 26th March, 1943, in this way: one of the officers who had been on the station for some time, and knew what had been going on, approached an officer of the Provost Marshal's Department and
    1908
    informed him of what was taking place. That officer of the Provost Marshal's Department began to take notice and to obtain information, and his inquiries were in full swing in November, 1943, simultaneously with the exposure by the officers concerned. Now my information is this—and I stand to be corrected by the Secretary of State—that the investigation for which Group Captain Gilligan asked Air Commodore Critchley was conducted by two officials of the Air Ministry, It was apparently not an inquiry into these irregularities but into certain other questions relating to the farm, to the pigs kept at the farm, and the method of feeding the pigs. My allegation is that this exposure by the officers concerned was not an exposure of the offences which were admitted by the Secretary of State on 26th October. This was an inquiry into another matter, and I want to know whether those who conducted the inquiry were people of sufficient standing and sufficient knowledge of the subject to be able to make an effective inquiry into what was taking place in that particular unit.
    The next thing is this. A very curious thing appears to have happened according to the statement of the Secretary of State, who said in reply to a Question on 8th November, 1944:
    "The summary of evidence was sent to the Treasury Solicitor in June last. I have already explained to the House in the Debate on the Adjournment on 27th October why the Treasury Solicitor was consulted by the Royal Air Force Deputy to the Judge Advocate General."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th November, 1944; Vol. 404; C. 1340.]
    Now what he actually said on 26th October was this:
    "… I suggested—I did not order—to the legal authorities in the Air Ministry, that, as this case dealt not solely with Air Force law, but with Regulations outside the Air Force—the Food Regulation—it would be as well to get the advice of the Treasury Solicitor"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th October, 1944, Vol. 404, c. 479 and 480.]
    While on November 8th he said:
    "The Ministry of Food has, I understand, its own enforcement organisation and a branch of the Treasury Solicitor's office is attached to the Ministry of Food. This branch undertakes prosecutions for that Ministry."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th November, 1944; Vol. 404, c.1340.]
    Not, I want the House to take note of this—the enforcement organisation of the Food Ministry belongs to the Treasury Solicitor, and as that organisation had handed over the charges to be dealt with

    1909
    by the Air Force some six months earlier, how is it that in June, 1944, the Enforcement Department—that is in effect the Treasury Solicitor—was shown the summary of evidence and, according to the Secretary of State's statement on 26th October:
    "The legal advice which the Air Force Deputy of the Judge-Advocate General gave to the Commander-in-Chief was supported by the Treasury Solicitor, and the Commander-in Chief came to the conclusion that the institution of the court-martial was not warranted. He also found that breaches of the Food Regulations had been committed."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th October, 1944, Vol. 404, c. 480.]
    I put a Question to the Secretary of State for War and the First Lord of the Admiralty, because all who have been in the Services would have been amazed to hear that the Judge-Advocate General's advice as to the holding of a court-martial had to be confirmed or otherwise by a civilian lawyer who had no locus standi whatever in any court-martial. In the case of both the other Services they said there was no record of such a thing. It has never happened on any other occasion even in the Air Service itself.
    It so happened that on 30th October I met the Treasury Solicitor and asked him at what date he was called in. He could not definitely say, because he had not the papers by him, but he thought it was just before the Summer Recess. There may have been enough doubt to make the end of June and "just before the Summer Recess" tally, but "just before the Summer Recess" would be late July, or early August. On 26th July, I put a Question to the Food Minister on the Paper and it was asked on 2nd August. On 26th July I actually warned the Secretary of State for Air that I was going to raise the matter on the Floor of the House if court-martial proceedings were not allowed to go forward, and I raised it at, the earliest opportunity on the Adjournment.
    At this point I propose to make serious further allegations which can only be proved or disproved by documentary evidence. Information has reached me—it is no use talking about the Official Secrets Act because I have not the faintest idea who sent it. I can show the note to the authorities and perhaps they can tell me who gave me this information. If they can find out where it has come from they are cleverer than I am. This is it:
    1910
    "When your question was put down the Secretary of State consulted the Judge Advocate General and asked his advice. The Judge-Advocate General is not competent to give advice on that point. The Secretary of State then consulted the Attorney-General who suggested that the Treasury Solicitor could advise him. The date was late in July."
    There may be an explanation of these things but up to the present the Secretary of State has not given any explanation whatever but has had the impertinence to accuse me of being suspicious. I think the House will agree that a certain degree of suspicion was justifiable.
    That is the first of these statements which can only be proved or disproved by the production of papers, and it is essential for the sake of the Secretary of State himself, and for my reputation, that whatever body inquires into this should be in a position to enforce the attendance of witnesses and the disclosure of documents. I do not say that these statements are correct, but as far as I know, they come from a reliable source, although I do not know what that source is. That sounds like a paradox. But there is a thing called the Official Secrets Act, and I understand from those who give me information that there has been considerable talk recently about prosecuting me under that Act—that being one of the counter-attacks of which a considerable number have been in process of development from time to time.
    I have, however, a system which I designed a long time ago by which information comes to me in such a way that I do not know from whom it comes, but I do know whether or not it is reliable information. It is a perfectly simple device but I am not going to disclose it. I will only disclose it when I have finished with it, not to the Secretary of State, nor to any politician, nor to anyone in the House, but to those authorities whose business it is to find things out in the ordinary course. That is the information that came to me. It seems to tally with the actions and words of the Secretary of State himself. But it cannot be proved or disproved unless we have a really strong tribunal which can compel witnesses to give evidence and compel people to disclose documents.
    To go back to the quotations from that speech on 26th October, the first was:
    "As soon as it came to light, the Commander-in-Chief of the Command started an investigation."

    1911
    In the seventh of these quotations the legal advice which the Deputy Judge-Advocate General gives to the Commander-in-Chief, presumably means to Air Marshal Babington, because he was referred to immediately before. These two quotations came from consecutive paragraphs in the OFFICIAL REPORT of the Secretary of State's speech on 26th October, but between those two passages we find this:
    "The Commander-in-Chief"—
    this obviously means the Commander-in-Chief of Training Command—
    "reviewed the summary of evidence. He is the officer who holds the King's Warrant for convening courts-martial and he was responsible for deciding whether or not it was necessary to hold a court-martial in this case. He is an experienced man of unimpeachable integrity of character and he decided on the merits of the case in the light of the legal advice of the deputy Judge-Advocate General who is the highest legal authority available to the Commander-in-Chief."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th October, 1944; Vol. 44, c. 479–80.]
    Then why call in the Treasury Solicitor? This is the case for the Secretary of State to answer. It is quite obvious that he intended the House to think that Air Marshal Babington took the decision against holding a court-martial. In actual fact was it Air Marshal Babington—though the description of his character applies absolutely to that Air Marshal and his reputation in the Air Force is at least as high as stated by the Secretary of State—who gave the decision against calling a court-martial? My information is that it was not and that it was in fact Air Marshal Barratt.
    The way it came about was this. The circumstances that led to the handing over were these. At the taking of the summary of evidence the officers under suspicion called Air Marshal Babington as a witness and asked him some trivial questions about a dinner or lunch at which he had been a guest and at which, apparently, contraband food had been consumed. By giving evidence he was debarred from taking further charge of the court-martial, which was then transferred to another air officer commanding-in-chief, who in fact was Air Marshal Barratt. So the Deputy Judge-Advocate General's advice based on the summary of evidence was tendered to the latter and not, as was implied by the Secretary of State, to the Air Officer
    1912
    Commanding-in-Chief Training Command, that is to say Air Marshal Babington. Hence it appears first that the Secretary of State misled the House and, secondly, it appears that Air Marshal Babington as Commander-in-Chief of Training Command must have seen a very great deal more of this case than was ever seen by Air Marshal Barratt, who was only called in after the summary of evidence had been taken. I wish to ask the Secretary of State a specific question. Was Air Marshal Barratt given all the papers prior to the summary of evidence? Was he, for instance, in possession of the report made by the Provost-Marshal's officers who investigated the affair and made the first report to the Provost-Marshal, or was he only given the summary of evidence? I do not know what the reply is but I should like to know, and I think the House ought to know because if, as I believe, that is the case, it seems to me that it is far less likely that the court-martial would have been prevented from being convened had it been judged by Air Marshal Babington, who must have seen a good deal of what was going on before the summary of evidence was taken.
    Here we come to another of these points where it is essential that the House should insist upon a Select Committee capable of enforcing the production of official documents. Information reached me that Air Marshal Barratt, after the summary of evidence, ordered charges to be drawn against certain officers and, while this was being done, the Permanent Under-Secretary addressed a letter to the Deputy Judge-Advocate General telling him that Air Marshal Barratt would write to him on the subject of these charges, and enclosing suggestions as to the reply that was to be made to the letter from Air Marshal Barratt by the Deputy Judge-Advocate General. There, again, I do not know if it is true or not but, when the information reached me, it came on paper which had a certain mark, and that mark is only used by a certain group of persons who, I know from experience, are to be trusted.
    Let us pass to another example where the House of Commons was misled. In his speech on 26th October the Secretary of State said first:
    "There was no evidence of fraud or any improper motives."
    Second:
    "There was no secret about it."

    1913
    Third:
    "It was all done in the light of day."
    Fourth:
    "There was no secret about that as far as I know."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th October, 1944; Vol. 404, C. 475–478.]
    On 15th November, I asked the Secretary of State:
    "Whether he is aware that the inquiry into the food offences in a Unit of 54 Group Training Command provided prima facie evidence that the following offences had been committed: false entries on Form 658, false description of the contents of packages of foodstuffs illegally distributed, etc."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1944; Vol. 404, c. 1935.]
    Colonel Sir Arthur Evans: Will the hon. Member refresh the memory of the House and tell us how much food or money is alleged to be involved in the charge?
    Mr. Hopkinson: As far as food is concerned, 13½ tons. As far as money is concerned, we can only estimate it. [An HON. MEMBER: "What is the estimate?"] I have not made an estimate but it could be very large indeed, amounting to many thousands of pounds. On 15th November I asked the Question to which I have just referred. The Under-Secretary replied, "Yes, Sir" I then asked him to reply specifically about the falsification of Form 658, and he said:
    "I have said these irregularities were committed.…"
    I then asked whether it was a mere "irregularity" that packages of foodstuffs delivered from the station to private houses were described as "Operational papers. Urgent." He replied:
    "The commander-in-chief who investigated this case did not find that the charge of concealment was proved. He could not make sure, in his investigation, whether, on these journeys, a small diversion occurred, or alternatively, that papers were not being carried."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th November, 1944; Vol. 404, c. 1935–6.]
    As I pointed out in my speech on 19th December, the station was not operational and therefore operational papers could not have emanated from it. I venture to say that there was a great mistake made by the officer who conducted the inquiry when he said there was no concealment when these things were done, if indeed he did say so.
    With regard to the question of there being no fraud or improper motive, the Secretary of State said on 26th October:
    1914
    "I was told … that it was possible for them to dispose of their surplus to people outside the station."
    This was early in 1942—
    "I asked specifically about that, and they said that it would be all right. They had not at that time received their licence, and had based themselves on informal conversations."
    When they did receive their licence they must have discovered that they were acting illegally and compromising the Secretary of State. Why did not they inform him unless the failure to do so was due to improper motives? The Secretary of State was persuaded to commit an offence against the Food Regulations, and it is only just and right to say that he took a lot of persuading. The evidence was that nearly all the victims had to be persuaded before they fell into the trap. They had not then got their licence. When they did get their licence they only had to read it to see straight away that this distribution of food was illegal and that it could not be sold outside. Yet, having put the Secretary of State in this position, they did not take the trouble to get him out of the hole. In his speech, the Secretary of State went on to say:
    "It so happened that a number of officers and others thought it right to show their interest and give such little help as they could by buying small packages of food from time to time."
    I asked him if "from time to time" meant regular weekly and monthly accounts. He said:
    "Yes. Surpluses were bound to arise weekly or monthly and a number of people took small weekly parcels."
    He continued:
    "I said at once that the investigation must be thorough and nothing should be left out. I asked the Minister of Food at once to arrange for my own purchases to be examined and assured those whose duty it was to conduct the investigation that they would have my full support in pushing it right through to whatever degree they thought necessary to serve the interests of justice."
    The Secretary of State seemed to have wavered later on, if I am correct in saying that a communication signed by the Permanent Under-Secretary was sent to the Judge-Advocate-General practically suggesting that court-martial proceedings had better stop. I do not think that the Permanent Under-Secretary would have done that without higher authority. If the document is produced, I think we shall find that it is written under the instructions of the Secretary of State.

    1915
    Continuing his speech, the Secretary of State went on to say that, as I had said,
    "while a summary of evidence was taken, he did not know what obstruction or opportunities of suppression of evidence were afforded. I resent that insinuation."
    I interrupted and pointed out that what I said was:
    "How serious were the attempts to bring the offenders to justice I do not know, nor do I know how far the efforts made were deliberately frustrated."
    The Secretary of State then reported:
    "No efforts made were deliberately frustrated."
    I asked:
    "Why were two of the officers asked to leave the station because they were obstructing?"
    He replied:
    "There may have been obstruction, I do not know."
    He had said a second or two before that there had been none. He went on to say:
    "I understand that the hon. Gentleman is now suggesting that officers of the station, presumably some of the officers concerned with the offences—"
    There was here considerable interruption in the House, and the Secretary of State went on:
    "that they did not attempt to obstruct. Therefore they were told to leave the station at once and their obstruction was stopped. That is exactly what I was saying, and I and my legal advisers were determined to ensure."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th October, 1944; Vol. 404, c. 478–481.]
    Earlier, he said:
    "The hon. Gentleman has suggested that a very large proportion of the meat did not go to the airmen's messes at all, but was sold outside."
    To which I had to interrupt by saying:
    "That is absolutely an untrue statement. I did not say that a great proportion had been improperly disposed of."
    My information is to the effect that, so far as we know, only about 13½ tons of foodstuffs have been traced. I take it that the House may possibly agree with me now that I have shown the truth of the allegations I have made, at any rate, the third of them, which is that persons in official positions had been compromised by these proceedings, and that they were in official positions where they could break the offenders, but did not do so, but, on the contrary, appeared to be very active in protecting the offenders from being broken.
    1916
    I come to the other side of the picture, which is that these persons in official positions who were compromised were in a position to exercise vast powers of patronage in favour of the offenders. It will not take long to deal with this. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I wish hon. Members who cheer would get up in their places, so that I would know who they are. Let us see what happened to the offenders. Air-Commodore Critchley, who commanded the Group, was recommended for the Order of the Bath and was placed in almost uncontrolled charge of British Overseas Airways Corporation, with high emoluments, salary and expenses, of which the Secretary of State refused to give any information. On 22nd March, 1944, the Secretary of State was asked by the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) what were the pay and allowances of the Director-General of B.O.A.C. The Under-Secretary replied:
    "I am not in a position to say what remuneration the chief executive receives … as this is a matter for the Corporation to determine."
    With his usual persistence the hon. Member for Ipswich went on:
    "Is it a fact that £7,500 is paid in salary and £15,000 in expenses?"
    The Under-Secretary replied:
    "Either the Corporation must have independence … or has to be run front Whitehall."
    In pursuance of his character for persistence, the hon. Member went on to ask whether the sums mentioned were not extravagant. The Under-Secretary replied:
    "I have not said that I agree that the sums mentioned are the correct sums."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd March, 1944; Vol. 398, c 834–5.]
    When the hon. Member pressed him to say whether they were or were not extravagant, no answer was returned. On 17th May, 1944, the Under-Secretary refused information on the grounds of security, the idea being apparently that Mr. Goebbels would at once transmit to Hitler and the German general staff the fact that the Director-General of B.O.A.C. was receiving such and such a salary and drawing such and such expenses. Perish the thought that the whole war effort of the country should be prejudiced by betraying a military secret of that sort! My information, although I do not know whether it is correct, is that

    1917
    Brigadier General Critchley's predecessor received a salary and expenses of the same order as the sums mentioned by the hon. Member for Ipswich, and, also, that when his successor took office the amount at first was the same, though it may have been wrapped up in the accounts of the Corporation under other headings.
    It is very easy to do that. Any of us engaged in industry, if we want to cheat our shareholders, particularly during a war, know how to do it. I think the hon. Member for Ipswich knows that. I certainly do. On 17th January, the Secretary of State replied to a question from the same hon. Member, and said that the expenses allowance had not been varied since May, 1943, in respect of service at home. Between June and October, 1943, a slightly higher rate was authorised in respect of service abroad, since when there has been no variation. In another place just before, it had been said:
    "These are the fees for the present period: a salary of £5,000 a year and expenses allowance of £1,000 a year. That is the whole."
    Here again I do not think it is possible to get at the real truth of the matter unless the accounts, both at home and overseas, are fully investigated in order to ascertain not only the actual cash payments to the Director-General, but also the approximate value of his emoluments in kind. The Prime Minister stated on 25th January, 1944:
    "I am now in a position to tell the House that there is no ground for the allegations which were made against the B.O.A.C."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th January; Vol. 407, c. 96.]
    The House noted with surprise the introduction of B.O.A.C. on that occasion, because nothing was said about it in the Motion standing in the name of the hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Moelwyn Hughes). The Prime Minister said that he was in a position to deny the allegations. From this it would appear that a thorough investigation of the books of the Corporation was undertaken. I should like to hear from the Secretary of State how that thorough investigation was made. Was it made under the superintendence of financial experts unconnected with the Corporation, or was it merely a cursory glance at the books by somebody with no particular qualification for the work? The investigation involved an inspection of the books of this Corporation all over the world. The time
    1918
    available, eliminating Christmas week, which was a busy week at the Air Ministry, was three weeks at the most. I venture to say that the information given to the Prime Minister to enable him to say that all was well must have been based on very insufficient grounds, because I cannot conceive how that investigation could have been conducted satisfactorily all over the world in the short space of three weeks, particularly as it takes a year to get the accounts presented to Parliament. Group Captain Wilson was allowed to leave the Service and got a high appointment in the B.O.A.C.
    Group Captain Gilligan was allowed to leave the Service and go back to dog-racing, retaining his acting rank on retirement, although he had just incurred the serious displeasure of the Air Force. Wing Commander Meredith, by special request of the Treasury, was allowed to leave the Service and become managing director of the Philip Hill Investment Trust, a holding company having no industrial activities.
    Sir A. Sinclair: Why does the hon. Gentleman drag in the name of Wing Commander Meredith in connection with this matter? What connection has he got with this case?
    Mr. Hopkinson: When all the facts are produced, we shall see the answer. Wing Commander Newman was also allowed to leave the Service and go back to dog-racing.
    I have at least put a case to the House for demanding to-morrow that it shall have a Select Committee, whether the Prime Minister likes it or not. I think I have shown that the allegations I have made, apart from those already admitted by the Secretary of State in the Debate, are proved, that is to say that these Ministers and other officials and officers, who were compromised by these people, did exercise their powers of patronage in their favour and did, so far as present evidence goes, take every step they possibly could to save the offenders from court martial.
    My position is that the matter was brought to me more than a year ago by officers and other ranks of the Air Force. After listening to the Secretary of State's speech this morning I think the House will agree with me that the finest of the youth of this country have been drafted

    1919
    into our Air Force and that the deeds of the Air Force will be one of the brightest pages in the history of this country. Tbere are many people in the Air Force who feel that it is a shameful thing that those boys, who in the case of these air crews are the pick of the working people of this country, the absolute cream of the best stock in our land, should be passing through that station and should know what was going on, because it was known for months, and then should go to Air Force stations all over the world and spread the fact that this is the way in which the officers behave. I say it is a tragedy, and those who brought the matter to me felt most keenly, as I feel it myself, that the duty of the Air Ministry and of the Secretary of State is to see at any rate that their powers of patronage are not conferred upon those who have put this foul smear upon the Air Force.
    4.4 p.m.
    Sir A. Sinclair: With the permission of the House I would like at once to give some answer to the hon. Member. I cannot, of course, follow him in all the details of his tortuous allegations. He only gave me notice after I had sat down this morning and had made my speech that he was going to raise this issue. He raised a number of extremely complicated and difficult questions. They are difficult to answer because they involve a series of legal implications. I will give the House the plain story of what actually did happen in this case, and in the general case which I shall put to the House on that, I shall be able at any rate to draw to some extent on the hon. Members' own contributions to this discussion.
    As regards the B.O.A.C. and the salary and expenses of General Critchley, a full account was given in another place by the Noble Lord, Lord Swinton. It was never the case that the right hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Thanet (Captain Balfour), who was then Under-Secretary of State for Air, said that security considerations forbade us to tell the House what General Critchley's salary and expenses were. There were two things we were asked about. We were asked for a fuller statement of the accounts of the Corporation. One reason, though by no means the only reason, for not being able to meet all the requirements of hon.
    1920
    Members of this House for information about those accounts was the security reason, and that was stated by the Undersecretary. He never gave security reasons for refusing information about the salary and expenses of General Critchley. The reason for that was that General Critchley is not a servant of the Government. He was not appointed to the post of Director-General of the Corporation by the Government. He was appointed by me as a member of the Corporation and not as Director-General. That was an appointment by the Board of the Corporation. Therefore, it was in accordance with precedent for my right hon. and gallant Friend to refuse information about his salary and expenses.
    Mr. Stokes: May I interrupt the right hon. Gentleman and ask him whether he is aware that I have a letter from General Critchley saying that he was appointed by the Minister and by nobody else?
    Sir A. Sinclair: He was appointed by the Corporation. I said so a moment ago. He was appointed a member of the Corporation by me and he was appointed Director-General by the Corporation. Subsequently, as there was so much interest in this case and so many allegations have been made, Lord Swinton obtained the permission of the Board to make a statement in another place. He made a full statement of what had in fact been paid to General Critchley.
    Mr. Hopkinson: He merely said "the present arrangement."
    Sir A. Sinclair: The present arrangement is the same, with some very slight modifications which I explained in answer to the question of the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes). It remains the same as it always was, with those slight variations. The hon. Member referred to the charges which he had made in the Regent's Park case, in October of last year. I answered those charges. I gave a full and a frank statement to the House. The Debate ended about 20 minutes before the House was due to rise for the Adjournment. I do not say, and I think I ought not to claim, that in my necessarily brief speech, I carried complete conviction on every point to every hon. Member present, but at any rate I carried so much conviction that nobody rose to continue the Debate on that occasion.

    1921
    The truth is, in this matter, as I have said, I have always been absolutely frank with the House from the very start about this matter. I do not know who the hon. Member's informants are, these reputable informants. All that the hon. Member knows about them—he does not know their names or addresses—is that they are reputable. That is the one piece of information that we have. For my part, I have always been frank with the House when I have had an opportunity of answering the hon. Member. The last time he raised this farm case he did it after having obtained Mr. Speaker's permission to discuss the B.O.A.C. accounts. I had not the slightest idea that he was going to drag that farm case into the discussion of the B.O.A.C. accounts or I would have been in my place to answer him. As it was, I left it to my hon. and gallant Friend to take the Debate on the, B.O.A.C. account.
    On the irregularities, I have told the House before that what I deeply regret and what I described to the House did, in fact, take place in Regent's Park on one of the many stations of 54 Training Group. That was at a time when we were in the throes of the expansion of the Royal Air Force in 1942–43. It threw a particularly heavy burden on the officers of that station. As the hon. Member said in the concluding words of his speech, that is the station through which young air crews gain their entry into the Royal Air Force. The officer who was in command of the station at that time had the task of reorganising the station and greatly extending its work, a task which he and the officers associated with him did magnificently. At the same time, they responded to the appeal which, as every hon. Member will remember, the Government were making at that time, to Royal Air Force stations and also to units of the Army and Navy, to grow food for their men so as to add to the supplies of food in the country. It was not their principal task, but they threw themselves into that task with tremendous energy in addition to their principal task. Perhaps they did it too light-heartedly. Perhaps I, too light-heartedly, felt that it was a good thing for me to give them a little feeling of encouragement from the top, as I did when they said to me: "Will you from time to time take a little of the surplus food that comes off every week? You pay, and the profits go into the institute
    1922
    fund of the station." I admired the spirit they were showing. I did not need persuasion, and I can tell the hon. Member that I did it spontaneously.
    Mr. Hopkinson: I apologise to the right hon. Member for having made that statement. I understood that he took, like others, considerable persuasion. I understand now from what he says that he did not need to be persuaded.
    Sir A. Sinclair: No, I did it quite spontaneously. I did, indeed, ask whether it was correct and whether it was right. I did not need persuasion. These officers said, no doubt quite genuinely at the time, that it was perfectly all right for me to do it. The fundamental error which they committed in this case was in believing that they were entitled to sell this food off the station. I am only sorry that the hon. Gentleman should see the action of these officers in none but a baleful and almost sinister light. As soon as these irregularities came to light, investigations were started by the responsible Commander-in-Chief.
    The hon. Gentleman referred to another investigation which was started on the initiative of the officers concerned, who felt doubtful about their administration of this side of their business, this food-producing business. They wished to have it inquired into to see whether their business methods were correct and to ask that the question whether they were or were not entitled to sell food off the farm should be considered. Before that inquiry, which they had initiated, was completed, the Commander-in-Chief had launched his inquiry into what was going on in reference to the food production business on the station. For my part, I did not know about the first inquiry. I did not know that those officers had asked for this inquiry to be undertaken, but as soon as I knew of the second one being undertaken, which the Commander-in—Chief had launched, I gave instructions that every possible consideration must be given to those who were conducting this inquiry, and every obstacle was to be swept out of their way, so that these inquiries should be thorough and searching. These inquiries were exhaustive. The summary of evidence was taken from numerous witnesses, a process which lasted some nine weeks. As a result of this no trace of fraud was revealed. Indeed, the hon. Member for

    1923
    Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson), speaking on 19th December last, said:
    "These food offences are trifling—about the same thing as when a baby steals a lump of sugar from the sugar basin. I definitely chose those paltry little offences in order to see whether the House of Commons was assiduous enough in conducting its public duties to take the matter up without my disclosing anything further"—
    I hope he felt that the House of Commons came up to his expectations.
    Mr. Hopkinson: May I say that the House of Commons did not? That is the reason why I now definitely charge the right hon. Gentleman with interfering with the conduct of a court-martial.
    Sir A. Sinclair: I am coming to that. The hon. Member went on to say:
    "I say these offences were comparatively trivial …"
    offences which he was representing this afternoon, within the recollection of every hon. Member sitting in this House, as baleful and sinister transactions:
    "I say that these offences were comparatively trivial; but what I think is a very serious thing is interference with the course of justice."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th December, 1944; Vol. 406; c. 1734 and 1736.]
    I will only say before I come to that point that I have never said that they were paltry and trivial offences. Hon. Members who have heard me speak on this subject before will remember that I said I deeply regretted them. I feel my responsibility to the House of Commons for what happened on this station. Responsibilities were fixed on the officers mainly concerned, and disciplinary action was taken.
    The hon. Member for Mossley says that I interfered with the course of justice. I interfered on only two occasions in these transactions. The first, as I have already told the House, was when I said that the investigation should be thorough, and I gave instructions to all concerned that any obstacles that were met with should be swept aside. The hon. Member referred to alleged obstruction by officers on the station. As I pointed out on a previous occasion, if indeed these officers had been posted away because they had obstructed, it would only have proved that my orders were being carried out, and that obstacles were being swept aside. I have made inquiries, however, and I am told that the allegation is quite with-
    1924
    out foundation, and that these officers did not, in fact, attempt to obstruct. My first intervention was to say that the investigation should be thorough.
    I wish to make one disclosure to the House at this point, which I have not made before. I was very anxious to make certain that the methods of conducting the investigation were those most likely to secure the ends of justice. I therefore thought it right to consult the Law Officers of the Crown. It is not usual to disclose the fact of consultation with the Law Officers of the Crown to the House, but the Attorney-General has told me that on this occasion I am free to make that disclosure when I wish to do so. As the hon. Member for Mossley has referred to the Attorney-General this afternoon, I feel it right that I should tell the House that I did consult him. The question was how the inquiry could most effectively be conducted, and he advised the course which, in fact, was pursued.
    The only other time I interfered was when the Commander-in-Chief had come to his conclusions. Let me say that neither I nor the Air Council can order a court-martial. The convening of a court-martial is not an administrative but a judicial act. It is carried out by the Commander-in-Chief, who holds the King's Warrant for convening courts-martial. But when I knew he had come to his conclusions I felt it right to offer him the advice that he should seek the highest possible legal advice. He therefore sought the advice of the Royal Air Force Deputy to the Judge-Advocate-General, and the Treasury Solicitor and the Attorney-General. They endorsed, on legal grounds, the course which the Commander-in-Chief recommended.
    Mr. Hopkinson: Which Commander-in-Chief was that?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I am obliged to the hon. Member for explaining this. It is perfectly true that from time to time there have been two Commanders-in-Chief, and the names have, perhaps, been confused. There is nothing sinister in it at all. The fact is that the first Commander-in-Chief to be concerned in this case was, of course, the Commander-in-Chief, Flying Training Command, of which No. 54 Group forms part. As the hon. Member for Mossley explained, it was discovered that the Commander-in-Chief, Flying Training

    1925
    Command, was being called to give evidence when the summary of evidence was taken. Therefore, it was felt to be more proper that the case should be transferred from Flying Training Command to Technical Training Command, and the Commander-in-Chief, Technical Training Command, then became responsible for deciding whether or not there should be a court-martial.
    There has, therefore, been no interference with the course of justice, as the hon. Member for Mossley suggested today. The hon. Member tried to interfere with the course of justice. He came to me and said that if I did not see that there was a court-martial he would raise the matter in the House of Commons. I told him then, as I am now telling the House, that I would not interfere, that the Commander-in-Chief would form his own opinion, that he would have the best legal advice at his disposal, and that I should support him, whatever his decision might be. Therefore, all I have to say to the House is that there has been a thorough investigation, a thorough judicial process of inquiry, into these allegations about what happened at Regent's Park Station, a judicial decision has been given by the Commander-in-Chief, holding the King's Warrant for convening courts-martial, that decision was endorsed by the highest legal authorities, and I hope the House will agree that no further action is called for.
    4.24 p.m.
    Mr. Tree: I. will not pursue further the matter which was raised by the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson), except to say that it seems to me a pity that the time of the House should be taken up, on the one day in the year which it has to discuss matters of policy of a great Service Ministry, by exploiting a petty, administrative scandal in order to pursue a personal vendetta against a Minister. I think that whatever opinion one may have about his political view, no one can deny that the Secretary of State for Air is a man of the very highest integrity. I think, further, that the House is getting extremely bored by those reiterated, vindictive and personal attacks that are continually being carried on against him by the hon. Member for Mossley.
    Earlier to-day we listened with great pleasure and pride to the fascinating story of the contribution that has been
    1926
    made to the winning of this war by the Air Force, and I am sorry I have to bring up, at this late stage, a controversial topic. I wish to raise once again the matter of the recent air accidents that have taken place in Transport Command. I very much hope that the Secretary of State will not take it amiss, or feel, as he appeared to do the other evening during the Adjournment discussion in the House, that a personal attack is being made upon him which has to be answered by a panegyric on the Air Force as a whole, or that the questions I shall put to him this afternoon will be answered in an all-is-well-in-the-garden sort of way, such as the statement he made the other evening on the Adjournment Debate, when he said with considerable pride that current experience shows the fatal accident rate to be 1/30th of 1 per cent. That, put into language which the ordinary man can understand, works out as meaning that one out of every 3,000 passengers carried suffers a fatal accident. I would point out that in the United States in 1943 very nearly 3,000,000 passengers were carried by air, and out of that total only 22 were killed. That works out at one in every 127,000 people carried, or 42 times better than the figures quoted in the Adjournment Debate by the Secretary of State for Air. I do not believe this kind of answer either reassures Members, or helps the case that the right hon. Gentleman is defending.
    We all realise the great work that is being done by Transport Command. The Minister had a word or two to say about it to-day. They are doing a wonderful service in all parts of the world to-day. I wish him to be assured that I am not approaching this matter in any hostile vein, but merely to elucidate information, and, if possible, to obtain assurances in a matter which I believe is causing very widespread anxiety. But worse still, it is giving rise to unfounded humours as to the quality of British aircraft and the crews than man them, at a moment when it is essential for our export trade that British aircraft should establish the highest possible reputation. I am convinced that them is nothing wrong with British aircraft, or with the qualities of the crews that man them, but I believe there is some justification for thinking that they are not as effectively maintained or loaded as they should be, and that there is something very wrong with the way in which

    1927
    crews are trained, briefed and generally used. Recently there has been a change in high places in Transport Command; and rumour has it that the new commanding officer is a very live wire, and that he has called for an investigation into all these matters. Let us hope that if he finds that there is truth behind them, he will set machinery in motion to have them put right.
    The training of a pilot for commercial air transport—or, in other words, of a man to whose safe keeping the travelling public is entrusted—and that of a pilot whose work is to be primarily concerned with the bombing of Europe, are utterly different. The training of a pilot for Transport Command approximates more nearly to the former than to the latter. The commercial pilot must have two essential qualities: experience and academic training in both navigation and meteorology. His experience must enable him to take instant decisions should a set of circumstances arise, in the course of a flight, about which he has not been briefed. The pilot gets that kind of experience only by knowing all the branches that he has under his command. He must also have a thorough knowledge of the routes and of the pecularities of the weather that he may find upon those routes. Before the war it was necessary for a pilot to have at least 1,600 hours in the air before he was entrusted with the command of a plane carrying passengers and mail. It is necessary for a bomber pilot to have only something like 400 hours in the air.
    Mr. Loverseed: Is it not a fact that before the war any pilot could get a "B" licence on 200 hours' flying?
    Mr. Tree: Yes, but the company would only employ him as a second pilot until he had about 1,600 hours.
    Mr. Loverseed: But he could qualify.
    Mr. Tree: Legally, yes. In addition to that, a bomber pilot has all the aids, such as master bombers, Pathfinder forces, and so on to help him—which is as it should be. The question I would like to ask the Under-Secretary is whether the principles applied to the teaching of commercial pilots have been followed in the training of air transport crews or not. I believe that they have not, and that the
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    Air Ministry have in the past been granting certificates to pilots of fairly low qualifications and of no navigational experience at all. The Americans, who have had considerably more experience in these matters than we have had, set up an Air Transport Command immediately they came into the war, and they put into it all the ability, knowledge, and experience of civil aviation that they possessed. Heads of great air lines were immediately put into uniform, and they took with them all of their personnel and their crews. It was not long before those crews were flying between Miami and Calcutta, or on other long-distance flights, with the same ease, facility and knowledge, that they had shown on a route such as from New York to Chicago. I have always felt it was a mistake that when we, at long last, set up an Air Transport Command we did not follow the lead that the Americans had given us. We should have brought into it B.O.A.C., with their knowledge and experience of commercial air transport. Air Transport Command restricted themselves primarily to Service knowledge: they seem to have neglected to call in advisers from outside—indeed, it is frequently said that they look down on civil aviation experience.
    I believe it to be a fair statement that most of the accidents that take place are on unusual routes: that is, to planes engaged on special missions, such as that which figured in the tragic accident recently somewhere in the Mediterranean. If unusual routes are to be flown by planes carrying what is known in aviation circles as V.I.P's—very important personages—it is essential that, wherever possible, pilots with a knowledge of the routes and of meteorology and navigation should be employed. Rumour has it—and I hope that the Under-Secretary will deny this—that on this particular flight there was a new air crew, unacquainted with the routes, which they had never been over before. If that is so, it must never happen again.
    The next matter that I want to raise concerns the maintenance and ground staffing of Transport Command. Is the Undersecretary satisfied that it is as good as it should be; and are the planes in Transport Command supplied with the same appliances as civil aviation planes possess, such as the latest de-icing equipment and navigational landing aids? I heard about a York that was flying

    1929
    back from Australia recently. It developed engine trouble, and had to come down on an aerodrome where its crew knew there was a spare engine. In due course the engine was changed—and it took 33 hours to do it, because the engine was still in its packing case—and the plane flew on. Two hours later the new engine developed engine trouble, and the plane was forced to come back. It was then found that the engine had been put in covered with the heavy greasing that it had been covered with as a precaution against weather conditions, and was in a filthy state. This was not the fault of the makers of the engine, but purely that of the maintenance staff on the ground. In point of fact, the aeroplane made a very good flight back to England, under extraordinarily bad weather conditions. That is an isolated case, but it is the kind of case which might well bring about a serious accident. I should also like to ask the Under-Secretary whether he is satisfied in all instances that the meteorological reports are as comprehensive and accurate as possible. We all realise that in time of war, for security reasons, it it not nearly so easy to have good weather reports as it is in peace-time. Therefore, it is essential that the best possible reports should be given to the crews, and that they themselves should be given a course in meteorology.
    Finally, I would like to ask the Secretary of State whether he would consider, in the public interest and in the interests of British aviation generally, publishing the findings of inquiries into accidents involving the loss of civilian life. Obviously it would be impossible to do so in cases where Transport Command were flying Generals, let us say, up to their commands, very often in bad weather, when they have been advised not to do so. But when planes are flying over established routes, and accidents occur, in which there is a loss of civilian life, I believe a report should be published. This has been done for a very considerable time in the United States, and at the end of each year the Civil Aeronautics Board publish in book form findings of all the accidents that have taken place. The public can read that, and the pilots who have to fly over the various routes can read it, with great assistance to themselves. I understand also that that is done for internal consumption by the B.O.A.C. At this time, when we have
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    to build up an aircraft industry second to none, not only for our own satisfaction but in order to sell our aircraft abroad at the end of the war and in the face of heavy competition, a record of that kind would, I believe, restore confidence at home and at the same time refute rumours that can so quickly be spread abroad.
    Mr. Touche Mr. Touche (Reigate)rose—
    Mr. Montague: Is there to be no reply to the general Debate before the Amendment is moved?
    Sir A. Sinclair: My hon. and gallant Friend the Under-Secretary intends to reply to the whole Debate at the end of the discussion this evening. I understand that Mr. Deputy-Speaker is calling the Amendment now, and the Under-Secretary will reply to that first. Then we shall return to the general Debate, and the Under-Secretary will reply to that.
    Mr. Montague: A large number of important matters have been raised on the general Debate, and they stand a chance of being obscured if the Amendment is moved and a general reply is given at the end.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Charles Williams): Perhaps it will clarify the position if I explain that we will dispose of the Amendment, and then come back to the general Debate, which will enable the Under-Secretary to give a full reply.

  AIR TRAINING CORPS
  4.43 p.m.
  Mr. Touche: I beg to move, to leave out from "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:
  "this House, while expressing its appreciation of the valuable services rendered by the Air Training Corps, regrets that the present lack of leadership by the Air Council is causing discouragement and concern to the officers, cadets, civilian committees and instructors of the corps and urges upon the Government the need for an immediate declaration of policy and future intentions for the Air Training Corps."
  The right hon. Gentleman this morning gave us a vivid and stirring account of the great achievements of the Royal Air Force; and, although this Debate has wandered over many fields and into some unexpected avenues, our main impression must be one of great admiration for the gallantry, skill, and courage of the officers,

  1931
  men and women, of the Air Service. Long after many of the points raised in the Debate have been forgotten, the achievements of the Royal Air Force this year will stand out in history. It may seem a subsidiary matter to call attention to the Air Training Corps, but, personally, I believe that the future of the Air Training Corps is of great importance, not merely to the Royal Air Force, but to the future of Great Britain as an air Power.
  This Amendment falls into three parts. It deals first with the past, which has been most successful; it deals with the present, which is discouraging and obscure; and it deals with the future, which holds great hope of-promise, but which may well see, if the policy is allowed to continue, a deterioration and decline of the Air Training. Corps. As regards the past, hon. Members of all parties will agree with me on the most valuable services which have been rendered by the Air Training Corps. Over 100,000 cadets have joined the Royal Air Force and many thousands have gone into the Fleet Air Arm. They have taken part in operations wherever the air war has been fought, and many of them have won high honours. Other hon. Members more closely associated with their training can speak with greater authority than myself, particularly the hon. Member for Swindon (Sir W. Wakefield), who is to second this Amendment. All of us, whatever our experience, have on occasions, such as the Wings for Victory weeks, seen cadets of the A.T.C. in our constituencies, and, if other hon. Members have had the same experience as I have, they could not fail to have been impressed by the keenness, smartness and efficiency of these lads.
  It is a very encouraging fact to us that the air makes such an appeal to adventurous youth. It is a very encouraging fact for our future as an air Power. Our power in the past has very largely been maintained by the fact that the British nation has developed great gifts of seamanship. Now we have learned in this war that there are abundant sources of young men with great talent for the air, and this is the guarantee that Great Britain will remain an air Power. In the South East of England, I think this enthusiasm to join the Royal Air Force was greatly increased by the fact that many of these lads saw the Battle of
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  Britain fought and won in the skies above them. In the A.T.C. these lads have learned not only airmanship and become qualified to join the Royal Air Force, but they have also learned to become good citizens. To-day, magistrates and those interested in social welfare are sadly concerned at the amount of juvenile crime and the lack of discipline among the young, but the young boys who get into trouble are not the cadets either of the A.T.C. or of the other three Services. To-day, unhappily, the position of the A.T.C. is that it is sadly lacking both the numbers and enthusiasm which it possessed a short time ago. Many squadrons are now mere shadows of their former strength.
  The first blow that fell on the A.T.C., and, indeed, on all cadet movements, was of course, the introduction of the ballot for the mines. I do not intend to pursue the question of the wisdom or otherwise of that decision, but it does seem a strange thing that a Minister who undertakes to direct everybody to various forms of employment, when he comes to recruitment for a skilled industry should fall back upon the most primitive and most unscientific method of selection. It is unfortunate that, when this decision was made, no exemption was made in favour of those cadets who volunteered for the Services and who had acquired a certain standard of efficiency. There were many young boys in the country who had not volunteered for the cadet forces, and who had, therefore, shown no great enthusiasm to train themselves for Service life. It does seem unfortunate that the selection for the mines could not have been made from those who were not cadets. The ballot for the mines was a great blow to the A.T.C., as it was to every cadet movement, but more and more blows have fallen, on the A.T.C. and more and more cadets have been drafted into the Army and into industry. In some squadrons and some units, I believe, none have gone to the R.A.F. for over a year. I know of a cadet being accepted for flying crew service but, later on, being told that there was no vacancy in the Royal Air Force he had to go into the mines. I do not know whether he will make a good miner or not, but certainly the Royal Air Force have lost a very good recruit. It would be impossible to exaggerate the harm that has been done to the morale of these lads. In fact,

  1933
  I think they have stood up to their disappointments very well, but it is not really in human nature to expect young boys to work in their spare time at mathematics and navigation when, at the end of it all, they see that they have very little chance of going into the Royal Air Force or the Fleet Air Arm but are to be pitchforked instead into some other Service or into industry.
  I do not suggest for a moment that these cadets do not benefit by being in the A.T.C., but they joined it not merely to become good citizens but in order to become members of the Royal Air Force. I do not believe that the Air Ministry realises the gravity of the situation which exists to-day. They naturally, I think, very largely rely on returns, and many of these returns are out-of-date, and all of them represent strength on paper and not strength on parade. The problem facing every unit in the A.T.C. to-day is whether to insist on regular attendance, in which case the already depleted ranks may be further reduced, or to depend on casual attendance, in which case the high standard of efficiency of the corps is bound to suffer. To-day, officers and instructors are frankly discouraged. A number of officers have resigned, and we must remember that these officers normally have arduous civil occupations and give up their spare time to working for the A.T.C. Many others may be feeling now that the sense of urgency which previously existed has gone, but they are carrying on because they hope that this is only a temporary phase and because they are fond of the A.T.C. Instructors, too, are finding their classes reduced to a handful. In these circumstances it is really most discouraging, for officers, instructors and cadets. It would help enormously if the right hon. Gentleman to-day could give a new message of hope and encouragement to the Air Training Corps.
  We cannot expect any alteration in the policy adopted by the Government during the war with Germany, but it would be a great encouragement to the A.T.C. if they could learn that, after the defeat of Germany, the Air Training Corps would once again become the normal entry ground for the Royal Air Force. It would help them also to know how the Air Training Corps is to be conducted in future, and if exact information could be given as to the opportunities to be given them later both for flying and gliding.
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  They could be encouraged still further if they could be given all the training equipment which becomes surplus to the Royal Air Force, and if they could be assured, as they are not to-day, that they are not the forgotten corps of the Air Council.
  I do not move this Amendment in any spirit of hostility to the Government, but I would ask them to appreciate that the situation is very serious, and that, if they allow it to continue to drift, the A.T.C. will emulate the old soldier and fade away. The energy and enthusiasm are there, and, if we dissipate it, we shall dissipate some of the most valuable things in life for these young men, who feel that they have had a very rough deal. If, to-day, some lead could be given, I believe the response will be enormous, and I believe it will ensure the permanent welfare of one of the finest youth movements we have yet produced in this country.
  4.59 p.m.
  Sir Wavell Wakefield: I beg to second the Amendment.
  I would like to congratulate the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Touche) on choosing this opportunity to bring forward this Amendment. At this time in the world's history, plans are being made and decisions reached which will vitally affect the future of the world. It is only right that, on such an occasion as this, the House should be able to debate another important future—that of the opportunities for British youth to take part in the air age. I would like to support the observations which my hon. Friend has made. I start by paying a very real and sincere tribute to the officers, warrant officers, civilian instructors and members of the civilian committees who have given so much of their time during these years with unflagging zeal and energy. Their devotion to duty has been really remarkable. It has to be seen to be believed. The greatness of their efforts can be judged by the results achieved by the cadets who have been turned out in recent years, by the work they are now doing in the Royal Air Force and in the Fleet Air Arm. Just tributes have been paid to the cadets, ex-cadets and to the work of those officers and instructors by the Secretary of State and by senior Naval and Air Force officers.

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  The value of pre-entry training is seen in the discipline and in the development of character, initiative and confidence which that training has given to tens of thousands of our young men. There have been many tributes from employers to the value of the pre-Service training of young men in their employ, and, coming from these sources, it is of extreme value when considering the future position of the Corps in peace-time. The value of this work has been recognised far and wide by the people of this country and they do not want to see it lost, but rather perpetuated in times of peace. The people of this country realise how we were saved at the Battle of Britain, and how the future security of our country, and the influence that we are to yield as a nation, and the part we are to play in whatever post-war security organisation may be formed will depend upon our air contribution. The age of our population, the decline in the birth-rate and other contributory factors mean that the contribution that we can make to any post-war world security organisation cannot be to a great army but must be primarily to the air and to the sea. In pre-war days it was the Royal Navy and its reserves, and in particular the men of the Merchant Navy, that provided our security. The Royal Navy held the sea. That was our security. In the future it is going to be the Royal Air Force and its reserves which will be our first line of defence, dependent, of course, as we shall be, upon the Navy keeping the seas open and carrying the supplies across the sea.
  Mr. Arthur Duckworth: And the Fleet Air Arm.
  Sir W. Wakefield: Certainly, in all these observations I am talking of the air age which covers transportation whether of peace or war, of men and goods and services by air. The air age is with us and our youth who wish to take part in it must be given a real opportunity in their teens to be able to be trained for service in the air with the Royal Air Force, the Fleet Air Arm or their reserves. The right hon. and gallant Member for Thanet, now the Minister Resident in West Africa (Captain Balfour), just before he left, made a very pertinent observation. He said:
  "Aviation whether military or civil must be the corner stone of the security and prosperity of the British Empire and therefore if as well as providing the numbers the
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  A.T.C. in future years provides minds equipped with true appreciation of the meaning and value of the air, its peace-time work will equal in importance, its war-time defence."
  These are fine words but the time for fine words and generalities has now passed. What this House desires and what the country wants is action by those responsible in the Government. There is a very real anxiety throughout the country about the future of the Air Training Corps and it is for this reason that I am glad to be able to second the Amendment which my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate has so ably moved.
  I know that the Secretary of State for Air, in a statement made to this House on 15th November last, said that the future of the Air Training Corps
  "must clearly depend on the conclusions yet to be reached on matters of high policy, such as the size of, and the conditions of service in, the Armed Forces after the war."—(Official Report, 15th November, 1944, Vol. 404, c. 1939.)
  This failure by the Secretary of State for Air and the Government to make a clear statement on future Air Training Corps requirements is having a most harmful effect on the Air Training Corps, on its officers, its instructors, civilian committees and, above all, on the cadets, and not least upon that very large section of the public that has so faithfully supported the Corps in these past few years. The reason for this harmful effect is that nobody now has any specific target to go for; there is no definite object at which to aim. There is a lack of guidance and leadership and there is no purpose ahead. The future is aimless. What officers, committees and cadets want to know is, what will be required of them after the war, and in particular, what is to be the size of the unit looked for by the Air Ministry. They want to be able to make plans and preparations for their finances and post-war training. The man in the street knows that in future, if the regular Air Force is small, then the volunteer reserves and auxiliaries behind it must be very large. If the post-war Royal Air Force is to be very large then there must be a wide choice from which to draw. Whichever way you look at it, a broad basis and a wide field is desired from which to choose the best. It is a well-known and proved fact that it is much easier to learn things when you are

  1937
  young where brain, hand and eye have to be co-ordinated, whether in playing games or flying aircraft. It is easier if it is done in the teens than it is if it is done in the twenties. Experience has shown that it is uneconomical to try and train people to fly after they have reached the age of 30 for the purpose of operational flying if they have never flown before.
  If Britain is to be in a position to play her part in any future world security organisation proportionate to her war effort in the air, opportunity must be given for a substantial number of our youth to learn to fly, whether by gliders or light-powered aircraft, in their teens. Owing to the wastage which occurs and for a variety of other reasons, and because of the quality demanded, at least one-fifth of the age group of our youth in each year, that is to say, something of the order of 50,000, ought to be given the opportunity to volunteer for training in the Air Training Corps before volunteering for air and ground duties afterwards. I hope that an opportunity may be given to every youth between 15 and 18 who desires to join the Air Training Corps to fly solo, whatever duties he may be required to do in the air or on the ground afterwards.
  Preferably I would like to see opportunities provided for more than this, perhaps a quarter to one-third of our youth, and that may mean over 75,000 a year. If this is done, then Britain can indeed look with confidence to taking her proper part in the air age, but, above all, she can look with satisfaction to her future security and to the part she has to play in any-world security organisation. Once a young man in his 'teens has learned to fly and got a liking for it, then opportunity can always be given for him to keep his hand in and to carry on in later years should he reach the necessary standards at an early age. The cost, surely, need not be great, and if it were, it is surely that kind of cost which it is quite vital this country ought to be prepared to undertake for future security.
  I want to ask the Secretary of State for Air why he cannot now give the Air Training Corps such a target for the future. Is there a difficulty and, if so, what is it? Is it the Treasury that is causing the difficulty? If so, I think this House ought to be informed. Does he disagree that a minimum of one-fifth of
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  the young people of our country ought to be given the opportunity to volunteer for service in a cadet organisation? If he does not disagree with that minimum why cannot he say so, and straightway we have a purpose and a target for all our various units throughout the country. If he thinks those minimum requirements are far too great, again I suggest he ought to say so. The country ought to know where it is, and so ought the Air Training Corps. The Secretary of State for Air may argue that, as the size of the post-war Royal Air Force has not yet been decided, he cannot make a definite statement, but surely that is putting the cart before the horse. What the country wants to be assured is that opportunity will be given for at least a quarter to a fifth of our young people having opportunities for flying training if they wish it. From the best of those who have been given that opportunity a choice can then be made of the numbers required according to the size of the Royal Air Force, as and when that size is determined. I cannot see why the Secretary of State for Air cannot make some definite statement now upon that point.
  The point is that this lack of decision is gravely affecting the future of the Corps. Such indecision is resulting, as the hon. Member for Reigate said, in the dissolving and dissipation of a fine force. It is still not too late to give that leadership and guidance to hold this force together and prevent its disintegration, but action must be taken now. There is a feeling growing throughout: the country that, now that the Royal Air Force has all the air crews it wants, the Air Ministry is taking little further interest in the activities of the Air Training Corps. There is a feeling shared by the volunteer officers, the instructors, the civilian committees and cadets that, whatever the Secretary of State may say, they are not really wanted. Many are getting disheartened at the lack of encouragement for the future, and in particular does this concern the civilian element of the Corps. When the Secretary of State for Air launched the Air Training Corps, he made a stirring appeal to the civilian authorities to help. Appeals were made to all responsible organisations throughout the country to rally round and give help. This rally came. Employers have done their utmost; trade unions through individual representatives on various committees have

  1939
  given invaluable assistance; educational and religious organisations of various sorts have worked unstintingly in the aid they have given.
  Now all these people feel that they are being cold-shouldered. The Secretary of State for Air, I think at the end of 1943, made a statement about the future of the Air Training Corps in which he said that he hoped the Corps would be tied ever closer to the Royal Air Force. So far as the cadets are concerned, this was good news—the closer that cadets can be in touch with their heroes in the Royal Air Force and in the Fleet Air Arm, the serving officers who are doing the work, the better. Everyone desiring the future welfare of the Corps will welcome it, but if, by bringing the cadets closer to the serving officers and men in the Royal Air Force, and in the Fleet Air Arm, it means that civilian support in general throughout the country is to be squeezed out, then such a policy can only be harmful. That is the feeling that is gaining ground. Many of those who, in their civilian capacity, have worked so hard for the wellbeing of the Corps, are feeling that the Air Ministry does not want them any more. The feeling is growing that the Air Ministry wants to run the Corps through the Air Marshals, and no longer desires that advice and help and guidance and consultation of the various civilian elements which have done so much to further the work of the Corps.
  I think there is some justification for this feeling. The corps is administered by a Chief Commandant through a number of Commandants. Civilian committees deal direct with these Commandants and, on the whole, this has worked quite well, but I think that some of this feeling of neglect would not have arisen if there had been set up some form of National Advisory Council—all civilians—which could bring direct to the Air Ministry difficulties as they arise, and from whom the Air Minister could seek advice and guidance. Some of the difficulties through which the Corps is now passing—the points so well made by the hon. Member for Reigate—I believe would have been mitigated if such a body had been in existence. Such a body would have as its members men who, in their individual capacities, carried great weight in the councils of employers' federations, the
  1940
  trade unions, the educational world, the religious world and so forth. Much could be done to help the Corps over its present difficulties, and if in that difficult transitional period between war and peace such a body were in existence the civilian element would feel that their advice was sought, their help needed, and that they were no longer being cold-shouldered; in fact, they would feel that they really had a future as well as a past. The help that these civilian committees can give, not only nationally but locally, is quite invaluable, and this will increase as buildings become needed more and more for various purposes and all kinds of difficulties arise. The policy of the Air Ministry has undoubtedly been rather to estrange than further the sympathy and help which it now needs, and so I hope that as soon as possible the Secretary of State for Air will set up a National Advisory Council for the Air Training Corps.
  It is, however, not only the failure of the Secretary of State in this respect that has led to uncertainty and unrest; it is the lack of interest, and, indeed, the general apathy towards the Corps by the Air Ministry of late that has been responsible for some of the trouble. Officers and instructors are saying to themselves: "What is the point of putting in so much hard work when it really is not wanted?" They see some of their most promising cadets being directed into the Army. We know the reasons. The Secretary of State has given very sensible and sound reasons for this. What these people object to is that when first-class cadets are being directed into the Army others who have not given any service in the Air Training Corps are still going into the Air Force. The other day my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Clitheroe (Sir W. Brass) drew attention to a case of a flight sergeant who had three years' service in the Corps and has passed his proficiency standard and yet was directed into the Army, while others who were not even in the A.T.C. went into the Air Force. How can officers and instructors continue to give heart to their work when this sort of thing is happening?
  I have had brought to my attention the case of a young man, the son of a foreigner who, because of his ability was chosen to go on a short Service course at Cambridge University. That was some two or three years ago. He has

  1941
  now completed his flying training overseas. Thousands of pounds have been spent on him. He is now grounded because of colour blindness. In a big organisation like the Air Force cases of that kind sometimes occur. It is a matter for investigation and I have drawn the attention of the Air Ministry to it. What I am complaining about is the effect that it will have on the future of the Air Training Corps. One would have thought that, now that it is found that he cannot carry-on, he would be posted back to this country or be put on to some job worth the while of a man of his ability, enthusiasm and keenness. Here is an extract from a letter that he sent to his father:
  "I feel as miserable as ever about my grounding. It takes a lot to get over, especially now that I have lost all the friends I had known since I joined the R.A.F. I am liable to wait anything up to five months. Being grounded, my pay has been reduced from 7s. 7d. to 3s. a day which is less than the lowest a/c's pay. I am helping in the cook house, serving dinners, etc., but I must take it with good heart."
  What is the attitude of officers, instructors and other cadets when they hear of this young man who has been put on to work which is usually given as a punishment? It is that attitude of the Air Ministry that causes unhappiness about the future of the Air Training Corps. I asked the Secretary of State a number of Questions last week. I asked him about the surplus training equipment formerly used in the initial training wing. If the Air Ministry were really keen on helping the Air Training Corps, arrangements could have been made long ago to transfer this interesting and valuable equipment for the use of cadets to help them in their work. It was put to them months ago but they have not bothered. They are not interested in it.
  I have a few practical suggestions to offer to the Under-Secretary. Why does not the Secretary of State say that as soon as conditions permit greatcoats will be issued and that when the present uniform becomes unserviceable it will be replaced by batile-dress? Small points like these matter a great deal where young men are concerned, and attention to them is an earnest of whether the Minister means real business about the future of the Air Training Corps. Why does the right hon. Gentleman not say that, if there is going to be compulsory national service, cadets who volunteer for the
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  A.T.C. will be given priority of choice for the Royal Air Force and its reserves and that they will at the same time have some special educational or other advantage for the service that they give from 15 to 18? It would be a great help. Again, why cannot he make arrangements with industry in general, and civil aviation and the aircraft industry in particular, for the grant of apprenticeships or scholarships or some form of encouragement for young men who make themselves proficient? What arrangements is he making for closer liaison with the counterpart of the Air Training Corps in the Dominions and Colonies? Have plans been made for the interchange of visits by cadets? I spoke to Field Marshal Smuts recently in Africa and he was most anxious that something of this kind should happen.
  Why cannot the Sectary of State make some more definite statement than he has made on these and many other matters which are of vital importance to the future of the Corps? Does it really come back to the Treasury? Is it a fact that some financial clerk, who has probably never heard of the Air Training Corps, puts a stop on this? Where is "the nigger in the woodpile" who is stopping these things being done? The value of the general educational training in character building, as well as the technical advantages, cannot be assessed in pounds, shillings and pence by a Treasury clerk. I earnestly hope that the right hon. Gentleman will as soon as possible make some more definite pronouncement on the future of the Corps and give some encouragement to those who are working for it, and also to the cadets. What is wanted now is not more assurances or generalities but decision instead of indecision and action instead of inaction. May I commend to the right hon. Gentleman's attention the motto of the Air Training Corps: "Venture Adventure." Let him venture, even at the displeasure of the Treasury, to tell the youth of the country that at least a quarter of their members will have the opportunity to seek the adventure of the air which is by right their heritage.
  5.30 p.m.
  Mr. Muff: The hon. Member who moved the Amendment reprimanded the Minister of Labour for directing members of the A.T.C. into the Army and other Services, but I would remind him that, while the Minister

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  of Labour is the whipping-boy, it was War Cabinet policy. I can speak for the North-East region, that is the counties of Durham, Northumberland and York, when I say that they accepted the decision loyally, but with great regret, because the cadets believed that in belonging to the A.T.C. they belonged to an organisation which was second to none. I admire them for their spirit. I have seen these cadets in their camps and giving up their holidays for training. I have seen them, too, at their tournaments. I saw them start from scratch in improvised rooms, and they could not have been kept going if it had not been for the generosity of public-spirited men who believed that they were putting their money on a winner. When the Secretary of State took office, I was deputed to see him to ascertain whether it was possible for the per capita grant to be slightly increased so that there would not have to be flag-days and going cap-in-hand begging for charity. I know the exact name of the Secretary of State, but I found then that he had an alias, which is Scrooge.
  Undoubtedly the A.T.C. has come to stay. On every side of the House we have to recognise that the cadet movement generally has come to stay and that it is the duty of Parliament and of the Treasury to support these organisations. The more one sees of such a movement as the A.T.C. the more one admires it. Only yesterday a man expressed his appreciation of what the A.T.C. had done for the cadets in his employ, and he handed over £100 for the movement. There is no doubt that the A.T.C. is in the doldrums to-day owing to the wobbly indecision either of the Air Council or of the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just taken office as Under-Secretary. At any rate, he is the only object I can see to attack at the moment, so I will put the blame upon him. We have been pretty well served in the North-East region, and that is the reason we have not come, like the hon. Member for Swindon (Sir W. Wakefield), in a white sheet, whining and grumbling. We in the North carry on pretty well and we shall continue to do so. When, however, there is no policy, when there is not even an advisory committee, and when the chairman has not even direct access to the Minister, the position is very unsatisfactory. I do not know who the chairman is now. I think he has
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  resigned and taken in his bat. After the boys had gone home from an evening of training, I have seen officers gladly sweeping the floor and getting things ready for the following night so that the boys should be able to carry on training and become efficient cadets. I was glad to see the spirit of those fellows. I remember one of them when he was a schoolboy, and later when he became stroke of the Cambridge eight and took them to victory for the first time for many years. This man taught these boys air-mindedness, which is a valuable quality we cannot afford to lose. The Air Council have now taken that man from his mill.
  What are we asking now? We are not suppliants. We are not demanding, but we are asking, and I particularly ask on behalf of the North-East region for some definite national policy for these cadets—a policy not for the end of the war, but for now. We do not want to lose these boys and allow them to be frittered away. We see the effect of self-discipline on them and what valuable citizens in the making they are, soon to make their contribution to the community, whether they have to join the Royal Air Force or settle down as citizens in their own neighbourhood. We want to prevent the drain which is taking place in the A.T.C. as a consequence of the indefiniteness of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Under-Secretary. I say that to him because his chief has gone to tea, and I hope he will report it to him and put in suitable adjectives such as I cannot do on the present occasion. I suggest the setting up of an advisory committee to give every encouragement to those people who are giving their best to the A.T.C. The general public look upon the A.T.C. almost with the same regard as Service officers look upon the Guards Regiment when it is marching by. They are the boys in blue. They look upon themselves as if they are wearing the blue ribbons of the Service, and their fathers and mothers are mighty proud of them, because they are mighty fine.
  We want this advisory committee. Let the hon. and gallant Gentleman nominate quickly his chairman. I will give him a chairman if he wants one. Most of the good things came from Yorkshire, I agree. We have a man. He happens to be Lord-Lieutenant. He is no mere ornament. He is a working Lord-Lieutenant. He went the other day to a certain place in York-

  1945
  shire with the boys, and after having had a taste of enemy action, being machine gunned when they were going home, they all got home to bed at about 3.30 on Sunday morning. Ask him to be the chairman. Ask him for his ideas as to certain names who would back him up. Then let the Air Council bring their nominees. Let there be a strong central advisory council. It is essential and it is urgent, and that is why I am glad to have had the privilege of taking part in this Debate in order to urge this great necessity.
  5.41 p.m.
  Mr. Moelwyn Hughes: It will avail this House very little to discuss methods by which the A.T.C. of the future may be made more attractive to the youth we wish to see within its ranks unless justice is rendered to those who have already served in it. The hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Touche) referred to the necessity of the A.T.C. being a body from which the cadets would benefit; I wish to draw the attention of the House to those whose membership of the A.T.C. has definitely led to their being deprived of benefit. Among those who become cadets in the A.T.C. at or about the age of 16, are a large number who are already students at secondary schools. A great deal of what I have to say will not apply to them at all. Outside those who are in secondary schools have been tens of thousands of boys who were already at work and who came to the A.T.C. in their spare time. Nobody will deny that in the days when those boys were recruited, boys who are now coming to the age of the call-up, the A.T.C. did recruit from amongst the cream of the lads of that age. What, in normal times, would the cream of the working lads of 16 years of age have been doing? They would have been attending night schools, evening classes and technical institutes. They would have been training to matriculate, to prepare for the preliminary examinations of the scientific, chemical and engineering bodies who issue diplomas. They would have been preparing themselves to be the technicians of the future. Though recruited at a time when air losses were 30 or more machines in one raid, they are now, at the call of their country, to throw away all that opportunity, and go into the Army.
  What is the treatment to be meted out to them? Under the scheme now accepted by the Government, on demobi-
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  lisation of these boys the Government will be prepared to assist financially the further education of those who, before they entered the Services, had reached the post-secondary school stage and had definitely indicated their further intentions. If those conditions are satisfied, after the boys are demobilised the expense of their training will be borne by the Government. What is to happen to boys in the A.T.C. who, by reason of the fact that they joined the A.T.C. and spent all their spare time there, deprived themselves of the opportunity of qualifying for the Government's post-war scheme? I do not suppose for a moment that the test imposed would not, in normal circumstances, be a fair one, but in these circumstances, the peculiar hardship inflicted upon the members of the A.T.C. is that those who would otherwise have been seeking technical qualifications have less command upon the Air Ministry. It is the duty of the hon. and gallant Gentleman and his right hon. Friend to see that fair play is meted out to those boys.
  We hear enough in this House from time to time about the need of educating the technicians of the future. It came up in our discussions on the Education Bill and again on the subject of research after the war. We are far behind Germany and America in our technical education. We cannot hope to have better industries after the war in scientific engineering or the new development of plastics, unless we have a new generation of technicians. We cannot even run a research laboratory with high-class scientists only. They must be backed by technical assistance. It goes through the whole gamut of industry, yet here is a fine class, as they will be when they come out, who will not be receiving any assistance whatever, nor that technical training which they would have had if they had not joined the A.T.C. Not only that, but they are not to receive any benefit for having shown themselves proficient and obtaining proficiency certificates.
  Instructions given to the cadets of the A.T.C. cover a period of two years. The bible which they have to study is this large tome which I hold in my hand. At the end of the time, they have to pass a searching examination in its contents. The evidence that I have been able to discover is that the overwhelming majority of the boys and young men improve consider-

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  ably intellectually through the course which they have in the A.T.C. They cover such subjects as mathematics and navigation and they are taught something about the methods of expression. I have consulted many schoolmasters who have been engaged in this work and they assure me that an A.T.C. cadet who gets the proficiency certificate has at least the equivalent of half matriculation. When these boys come out they will perhaps want to go for matriculation or the preliminary examinations of various kinds. So far, not one step has been taken to secure that in the proficiency certificate they should be given some degree in respect of that searching test which they have passed. In two ways, therefore, these cadets of the A.T.C., who came forward at a time when they were badly needed, are suffering.
  This matter is not being brought to the attention of the Air Ministry for the first time. An enthusiastic officer in the A.T.C. brought it to their notice as long ago as 14th September last. In the step which he took he secured the support of committees of the A.T.C. from every part of the Kingdom. The representations he made were sufficiently strong to secure for him an interview early in October, in that holy of holies, followed by a letter on 24th October, written on behalf of the Commandant of the A.T.C., saying, in the well-worn phrase, that the matters he had put forward were being actively considered. I need hardly tell the House that that is the last which has been heard of the matter from the Air Ministry until it has been raised here to-day. I urge on these two grounds that "active consideration" be reduced to terms of action, and that justice be done to these boys of the A.T.C.
  5.52 p.m.
  Mr. Shephard: It seems almost paradoxical that after the epic and inspiring story which the Secretary of State told us this morning we should this evening be debating an Amendment calling attention to the lack of encouragement to the very movement which has contributed so largely to that story. I am speaking to-day as a chairman of a county A.T.C. committee, and much of what I have to say will, I am afraid, be by way of criticism. I am sure that if the Secretary of State, or the Under-Secretary,
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  had been at one of these committee meetings during the last few months he would quite appreciate my point, and I hope both will understand that my criticism is intended to be helpful.
  There is despondency spreading throughout this movement. I do not think the figures showing the fall in strength have been quoted in this Debate. There were 182,000 members in April, 1943, 115,000 at the end of January this year. But that is not the true story, that is not the full picture. Many thousands of cadets who have not resigned have completely lost interest in the movement. I submit that if we knew the real facts about the strength of the A.T.C. movement, we should find that the effective strength was something nearer 50,000. One can well understand the difficulty in which the Air Ministry was placed when our casualties were fortunately so much less than anticipated. I believe that the cadets understand that. I am quite sure that they understand there are not vacancies in the Air Force for everyone in the A.T.C. What they do not understand, and what I find quite impossible to understand, are the anomalies which still exist. The first one is the fact that, as has already been stated by the seconder of the Amendment, youths are still getting into the Air Force without having to go through the A.T.C., and it is frightfully difficult to make youths in the A.T.C. understand that there may be some special reason for that, I take the view that there is really no special reason, and that it could be made quite clear that no youths shall enter the Air Force except through the one recognised channel of the A.T.C.
  There is one other point which I also think ought to be put right, that is, the difference between the school squadrons and the open squadrons. To the school squadrons the Air Ministry send down a selection board, and if a boy at the school is passed, then automatically he goes into the Air Force. But a boy from an open squadron does not get that treatment. He goes to an air crew selection board, and if the board have had instructions that they are not to accept more than a certain number of air crew entrants then no matter what standard that boy has reached he cannot get into the Air Force, and automatically he is seized by the Army. These are two anomalies which have created a good deal of discontent. It

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  is quite impossible to maintain the interest of the committees and officers and the cadets unless these anomalies are removed.
  I wish to make one or two observations on the administrative side, because it is with that side that we committees come so closely in touch. In the first place, I think the Regional Commandant should be responsible for training only. Administration should be undertaken by a county committee appointed by the Territorial Association, in exactly the same way as the Army Cadet organisation. Then the county, or area, committees need drastic alteration. They have no constitution, they have no executive power, they are not even compulsory. If I, as a chairman of one of these committees, want to know what is happening, I have to find out for myself, because as far as I can remember I have not yet been sent a copy of a single A.T.C. instruction. I submit that chairmen of these committees should be kept fully informed of what is happening in the A.T.C. On the training side, the seconder of the Amendment mentioned the case of a man who was colour blind, and was badly treated. All these cadets should go through a medical examination before a proper medical board, before they are accepted for the A.T.C. I cannot see any sense in spending time—two years—training a boy or youth, and then, when he has finished his training, finding he is halted by the medical board. Surely he could have had that medical board before being accepted for the A.T.C.
  Sir Patrick Hannon: Many of the squadrons have a medical officer attached to them.
  Mr. Shephard: I understand that, but he is only an honorary medical officer, and has no jurisdiction. Certainly he may make an examination, but it does not mean that a youth will be passed into the Air Force when he goes before a proper medical board.
  Sir W. Wakefield: It is impossible to say, two or three years ahead, what the physical standards of a youth may be. Indeed, it is known that the standards have varied throughout this war. It might well be that some youths would have been prevented from flying, if they had been turned down two or three years earlier, because of changing standards. There is that danger to be faced.
  Mr. Shephard: I quite agree that it works both ways, but I think that, taking the matter as a whole, what I have suggested would be a wise thing. There is the question of the 1s. 9d. a day, which I have always found a very sore point with these boys. Many of them, when they go to an R.A.F. station for training, really do actual ground staff duties, and it seems to me niggardly to charge them 1s. 9d. a day for being at camp, and on top of that to make them do work for which an ordinary aircraftman is paid. Very often this charge falls on the civilian committees. I have had this matter brought to my attention many times, and I hope that the Secretary of State will again look into it. My last word is about the lack of appreciation which has been shown up to now of the district inspecting officers, commanding officers, and other officers of the A.T.C. I do not know of a single honour awarded other than to fully-paid staff officers. [Interruption,.] I may be wrong, certainly I do not know of any; and this is quite a sore point. Other Ministries have recognised the services of voluntary people, and I hope that the Air Ministry will be more generous in future.
  6.1 p.m.
  Dr. Russell Thomas: I do not want altogether to associate myself with the mover and seconder of the Amendment. I think it is an excellent thing that they should have brought this matter forward, though I do not attack the leadership of the Air Ministry in the same way as my hon. Friends have done. Recently perhaps the Air Training Corps has not had the encouragement that it deserves, but there are many other factors to be considered. The whole general application of man-power to the war effort has to be borne in mind, and I do not think we should blame my right hon. Friend too much. I want to look at the matter not so much from the point of view of the present as from that of the future. We may be embarking very shortly upon a more peaceful era, and we should consider what is to be done with the Air Training Corps to meet the demands of peace.
  After the story which has been told to us to-day, of bravery, initiative, and enterprise—so excellently set forth by the Secretary of State, in my opinion, though it was unfortunately marred by an incident this afternoon—this is a fitting oppor-

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  tunity to consider the future of aviation so far as the youth of our country is concerned. I believe that aviation is one of the foremost problems that we shall have to face in times of peace. This country has always been the centre of communications, shipping, and so on, and it may well become the centre of world aviation, the line of communications between Europe and America, if we take the right steps. I believe that we, who have been a great seafaring people and have held our Empire by the efforts of our mariners, may become a great air-faring people as well if we take the right line. Not only should we have a proper scheme for training the youth of this country, who are already air-minded—every small boy to-day understands about aeroplanes: he thinks of nothing else—but we should have a proper organisation to establish a great British Air Training Corps, in consultation and collaboration with our Dominions, so far as we can urge them to set up similar organisations. Let us set up a committee at once, to consider not only our own Air Training Corps but its extension throughout the Empire. That would mean co-ordination throughout our Empire and the continued unity of the great English-speaking peoples.
  I do not claim for these few remarks any great originality. This idea was put forward to the Air Ministry by the Chairman of the Chairman's Committee of the Advisory Committee of the Air Training Corps and by Mr. Taylor, the chairman of the Yorkshire branch of the A.T.C. I venture to put forward their ideas to the House. They suggested that the Ministry should consider an Air Training Corps divided into three divisions—a senior division, which would attract the younger flying personnel of the Royal Air Force and open to them gateways into civil flying; a junior branch, which would take in the youth of our country and give them preliminary training for air careers; and also a preparatory division, for the young boys, who are already, as I said, air-minded, and which might work in co-operation with the air scouts' organisation already in existence.
  What would be the objects of an organisation of this kind? They would be not only objects of material value such as bringing British aviation to the forefront, but also objects of intense moral value to the rising generation. We should
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  teach our younger people their duties and responsibilities to their country and to their Empire. We should teach them world citizenship. Such an organisation would open for them careers in aviation. They would be prepared to take on the great tasks which Civil Aviation would open to them in the future. We could arrange an interchange of cadets between the different Dominions, and indeed, with other nations which might adopt a similar policy. Thus, we could establish good will between the nations. It would encourage initiative, high ideals, and the spirit of leadership. There would be a continuous flow of youth, for the linking of different parts of our Empire and the other countries of the world by British aviators. That would be of immense value. Also, if the Dumbarton Oaks programme became a practical policy, we should have ready in this British Empire Air Training Corps an air territorial forces which could enforce international law. We should also be encouraging the establishment of stations for training youth in aviation throughout our great Empire, which is spread over the Seven Seas.
  Now is the opportunity to make our plans for the future. How would this be administered? It could be administered by a Board, which would contain representatives of the two Ministries concerned—I thought it was only one, but I understand that there are to be two in the future—and it would contain civilians accustomed to act quickly and with initiative and enterprise, and it would also include some of our Air Marshals, who have had enormous experience in flying during the last few years. That would be the composition of the Board to administer the organisation which I suggest the Air Ministry should now consider. The civilian members of the Board would be men of well-known ability, men accustomed to administering great commercial organisations and so on. Thus we should have an active Board ready to put into being the idea that I have put forward. The finance of that Board would be partly provided by the Government, although I believe that the interest of the people of this country in this affair could be so stimulated that we would have large contributions from the shipping companies and the aircraft production companies, thereby easing the problem of finance.
  Now is the time for the Air Ministry to consider this matter and put the whole

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  of the Air Training Corps on a new foundation, expanding it, and encouraging our Dominions to form similar institutions which would eventually coalesce into a great British Empire Air Training Corps. The Committee, which should be appointed at once to investigate this matter, should be given the widest terms of reference, and asked to report at the earliest date. It should devise the necessary administrative and financial machinery. I ask the Secretary of State, whose qualities I always admire, because he always shows such determination and initiative in regard to his own Department, now that his Department is standing on the threshold of a new era, to consider this suggestion which I have put to the House and for which I claim no great originality—that our youth should be brought up in such a way that our country can take full advantage of the opportunities that lie ahead of us, and so that we can perpetuate in times of peace the greatness we have shown during the last five years of devastating war.
  6.13 p.m.
  Mr. John Dugdale: The House is deeply concerned, and, I submit, rightly concerned, at the steep fall in the membership of the A.T.C. during recent months. I want to deal with only one aspect of its work. I do not want to deal with its technical instruction, but rather with its welfare. I understand that there is an organisation known as the Central Council of Welfare of the A.T.C., and I have ascertained, by means of Parliamentary Questions, that this body has on it 44 members. It is a great, and, indeed, I would say, noble body—a very noble body. Among its 44 members, there is one Labour Member of Parliament, one Liberal Member of Parliament, one Liberal National Member of Parliament and three Conservative Members of Parliament. But there are also, over and above that, no less than 16 Conservative Peers on this very remarkable committee. I am anxious to know what this committee does, what purpose it serves, why it was formed, how often it meets and how regularly its members attend its meetings. I suggest that it has plenty of work to do. The A.T.C. in my own constituency is very active, and has a very active welfare officer. It has never heard of this committee; the existence of this committee has never been brought to its notice—this committee with
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  16 Peers on it. Yet there is, as I have said, plenty of work in the A.T.C. for such a welfare committee. There are dances to be organised, footballs to be paid for, grants to serving members—all these are acts of welfare carried out by local A.T.C.'s in which, apparently, they have no assistance from the Central Welfare Committee.
  There is more than that. I have mentioned outside activities, such as dances and football matches, but, over and above these, the local welfare committee even had to pay for the instruments ire the A.T.C. band. They have not only had to do that, but, most extraordinary of all, they have had to pay for the premises in which the boys get their instruction. I know that schools are often used, but many of the boys, for reasons that one can understand, do not like working in school, and a school is not necessarily the best place for them to work in, as it is not always possible to get all the equipment adequately housed. The Air Ministry apparently recognise this, because they say that welfare funds may be used for the extension or renting of premises. If the welfare funds may be used for this, what is the Central Welfare Committee of the A.T.C. doing to help in the supply of premises?
  Lastly, I would support very strongly the hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Shephard) in his plea that the practice of charging boys for their meals when they go to aerodromes to get instruction or even to work in helping the airmen should be discontinued at once. It is a disgraceful thing if the Air Ministry cares so little about the welfare of these boys of the A.T.C. that it cannot pay to send them to get their instruction on aerodromes. For all these reasons, I think it a good thing that the House should discuss this subject to-day, and I hope that, as a result of the discussion, the Under-Secretary will be able to tell us that something will be, done both for the technical instruction and the welfare of these boys.
  6.18 p.m.
  Lieut-Commander Joynson - Hicks: I think every hon. Member who has spoken has criticised the organisation or administration of the A.T.C. from some point of view or other, but no one who has spoken has made any criticism whatever of the members of the A.T.C. I should like to join in the commendation which I think is felt by everybody for the

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  extraordinarily fine spirit and showing of the members of the A.T.C. In the first place, the fact that they do join the A.T.C. shows that they are already very largely imbued with that very great British quality, the spirit of adventure, and, starting from that, the training which they receive in the Corps develop the finest qualities of citizenship which our country produces, qualities such as courage, initiative, perseverance and self-sacrifice. I am with my hon. Friends so far, and I am with them in the criticisms which they have addressed to the Secretary of State.
  I want to try, however, for a few moments to put this matter before the House from an entirely different point of view. Both the mover and the seconder of this Amendment referred to the fact that the purpose of the A.T.C. is for training boys to join and become members of the Royal Air Force and the Fleet Air Arm. That is quite correct, and, in fact, the Royal Charter, which is the foundation government of the A.T.C., specially refers to the fact that it is to train candidates both for the Royal Air Force and for the Fleet Air Arm.
  The Navy's reliance upon the A.T.C. for the production of recruits is hardly realised sufficiently by the general public. The A.T.C. training is based entirely on R.A.F. manuals and the whole of the administration and set up is equally based on R.A.F. principles and procedure. In every speech made this afternoon it has been evident that the hon. Member who has been speaking has recognised, as is the fact, that the A.T.C. is run by, and primarily for, the R.A.F. The only evidence of the Navy's interest in the A.T.C. is that small badge which is sometimes seen worn by members of the Corps representing that they are members of the "Y" scheme. The "Y" scheme is devoted solely to those cadets who are enrolled for air crew duties with the Fleet Air Ann through the "Y" scheme itself. In spite of this, the fact remains—and it is not generally recognised—that upwards of 25,000 members of the A.T.C. have joined the Royal Navy. Nevertheless, the administration and organisation are entirely and wholly R.A.F. and the Navy is, I think I am correct in saying, in no way represented in the organisation or the administration of the Corps at all. That is not at all as it should be. I would like, as
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  the Secretary of State is here, to pay him the compliment of saying that one cannot but recognise him as the most successful individual recruiting officer for the Royal Navy.
  If that is the state of affairs in the organisation and administration, it is very different indeed on the actual training level. The training of the A.T.C. is an example of the very highest degree of inter-Service co-operation which can be achieved. It is really a two-way traffic. On the one hand, the Royal Naval Air stations affiliate to themselves all the A.T.C. squadrons which are in the neighbourhood and actually there are some hundred squadrons of A.T.C. affiliated to R.A.F. stations. They run naval training camps during the summer months. from April to October, which are very largely patronised by members of the A.T.C. Last year over 9,000 cadets attended the naval training camp and nearly 10,000 hours' flying time put in by the cadets themselves. In addition there was also a substantial amount of training in deck landing given to cadets on aircraft carriers. As well as flying training, the camps go in for the general instruction which might be expected, the maintenance of aircraft and engines, photography, meteorology and so on. That is one side of the one-way traffic.
  The other side is where the Navy goes to the A.T.C., to those corps which are not able to be affiliated for geographical reasons to the R.N.A.S. stations. There is a complete system of naval tuition of one sort or another going out to the corps. Upwards of 2,000 talks have been given by naval officers and representatives, and literature has been distributed to the A.T.C. on Fleet Air Arm activities. Warship recognition is given, though that is not entirely disinterested. Naturally, if members of the A.T.C. are going into bombing formations, whether the R.A.F. or Fleet Air Arm, it is of great interest, as well as of importance, that they should be taught to recognise warships of every description, because at a range of five miles or so one warship looks to the uninitiated eye very much like another. Films and photographs are distributed, and in addition there are air lecture tours given by the Fleet Air Arm to these various stations which cannot be affiliated in order to provide opportunities for flying experience to the corps in Fleet Air Arm craft.

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  Complaints have been made and criticisms have been directed during the course of the Debate to the lack of policy, to the difficulties of administration and organisation of the Corps, but despite the sort of interest the Navy have in the Corps, it must be recognised that those complaints cannot be directed otherwise than through the Air Ministry, because the Navy has no opportunity of participating in the organisation and administration. Nevertheless, it has this great interest m the Corps; it is drawing nearly 70 per cent. of its expected pilot and observer candidates from the Corps at the present time. Therefore, the future of the Corps is of the very greatest interest to the Navy. The Navy have co-operated to the utmost possible limit and the time has come when a re-organisation of the administration and of the governing policy of the Corps is overdue, and I plead with the Secretary of State that he shall very seriously take into consideration the possibility of admitting the Navy into partnership in some form or another as members of an advisory committee or in whatever way may best be suited for their convenience in order to assist and play their part in the organisation and administration of this Corps, which is of such great importance to them, and in which they have already participated to so very great an extent in the actual training of the lads themselves.
  6.28 p.m.
  Mr. Perkins: We have had nine speeches, of which one has been neutral, one has supported the Air Ministry and seven have been critical or hostile. In view of that fact, I hope that the Secretary of State himself will reply to these criticisms and not "pass the buck" to the poor Under-Secretary, who has been in the saddle only two or three months. This is the only chance we get in the year of putting the Secretary of State across our knees, and giving him a good sharp dose of that medicine which is so essential and good for all Secretaries of State. I am a great believer in that old maxim "Dogs and Secretaries of State and walnut trees; the more you beat them, the better they be." There is a very apt expression in the R.A.F. which describes the situation when anything has gone wrong, and when a complete muddle has been made. It is said, "It is being muddled up, it is being messed up, in fact it has been irretrievably mucked up." That is what the present Secretary of
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  State for Air has done for the Air Training Corps. He has muddled it up, he has messed it up and he has irretrievably mucked it up. In the good old days of tradition in this House, when a Minister made a first-class mess of things, it was the custom to offer his resignation to the Prime Minister, but, of course, now living in enlightened days, and perhaps the old custom is out of date, or perhaps the Secretary of State has already offered it unknown to us.
  The Secretary of State himself in the year 1941, when this great scheme was being launched, used these words:
  "It will be the royal road to the Royal Air Force."
  For three years it was the royal road, but what is the position now? This royal road is congested and cluttered up with broken promises to the young men of the country, it is littered with the forlorn hopes of youth. I am satisfied, from inquiries I have made, that in effect the Air Training Corps now is slowly but surely being stood down like the Home Guard, and unless some steps are taken urgently it will in fact be stood down in the next six months. Right through the whole Corps, whether one goes to the junior cadet or to the senior officer, one and all feel the same—they feel that they have been let down by my right hon. Friend. Some of them go further and feel they have been betrayed.
  The Secretary of State in one of his very brilliant speeches—quite one of the best he has ever made, according to "The Times" of 16th September, 1943—when he was launching the national recruiting campaign for the Air Training Corps—this is under 18 months ago—said this:
  "The need for young men in the Royal Air Force, with the training provided by the Air Training Corps, was to-day every bit as urgent as in the darkest days of the war."
  He went on:
  "Now, with our enemies reeling under Allied blows, was the time for us to redouble our efforts and ensure that the Royal Air Force would be constantly strengthened by a flow of air crews and mechanics."
  And then, as a kind of bait, that in case the Royal Air Force could not take these boys, at any rate there would be lots of jobs in civil aviation, and he ended by saying:
  "And after the war has been won, there would be great developments in air transport and communications throughout the world."
  This particular speech, broadcast all over

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  the country, nay, all over the Empire, was taken by everyone in the Air Training Corps not as a definte promise but as a kind of gentleman's undertaking that the Air Ministry would stand behind the Air Training Corps and would do what they could to see it through. I know, because I had the privilege of being a district inspecting officer until about a year ago when I went to Australia, and had to give up, and at that time the policy of the Air Training Corps was: The sky is the limit. We were told to get all the recruits we could. In the Army Cadet Force they had a definte limit, and in the Sea Cadets they had a definite limit, but the Air Training Corps had no limit at all. I know that because it fell to my lot to approach both of these organisations who had waiting lists and say to them: "You have a waiting list; will you hand some of these cadets to us?" I am very glad and proud to say that they not only helped but were as anxious as we were to get the boys into uniform right up to the moment when this announcement was made. Right up to the very last minute the policy was: "The sky is the limit, get all you can."
  Then one night, on the wireless, the cold news carne through that no longer did the R.A.F. need the Air Training Corps, that in future these cadets, whatever service they had given, were going to be passed on to the Army and into the mines. That statement undid three years' work in the Air Training Corps. The cadets, the officers, the committees, the parents, the instructors, one and all, were bewildered by that statement. I do not blame for one moment the Secretary of State for the policy; he had to transfer those boys to the Army, there was no alternative. I do not blame him for that, but I do blame him for the way he did it—no word of warning, no hint, no tendency to slow up recruits, no tendency to get a higher standard in order to allow fewer and fewer through the net, no word of warning, not even to commanding officers, no time to prepare the cadets for the shock—nothing. He himself did not even come to the microphone that night and explain it to the country. If he had, this Debate would not have taken place to-day.
  I think that one of the most serious results we shall find in the future as the
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  result of that broadcast is that these young boys, it may well be 250,000 of them, will go away feeling that a promise given on behalf of a Government Department or the Air Ministry is a promise that can be broken at will if it is expedient; that a promise is not binding, that a statement of policy is not binding, it is only binding as long as it pays the Air Ministry of the Government Department to stick to it. I myself have twice been let down by the Air Ministry. I took some part in helping along a volunteer reserve school in the county in 1938. We were let down; but I cannot discuss that now. Again, I took some part in the county of Gloucestershire with the Air Training Corps. I feel that I have been let down again. You can fool us all some of the time, and you can fool some of us all the time, but you cannot fool all of us all the time, and I for one, if the Secretary of State at some future date comes to me and asks me to help with a volunteer squadron or air training corps, shall look with considerable suspicion before I say "Yes," because I know I shall probably be let down if I take on the job.
  What is the present position as a result of this policy of drift? The Air Training Corps, as I see it is wallowing in the slough of despond. Parents are 10th to send their sons into the Air Training Corps because they say, and rightly, that it leads nowhere. The cadets are absolutely grand, their hearts are in the right place, but that spirit and that keenness which we have seen for the last three years is now dormant. They are stunned, they are knocked out, they are uncertain as to the future, they cannot see the goal ahead. Any honest man must have a goal to work for. He desires for his own personal satisfaction that the job must be worth while to him and to the society in which he lives. This feeling which we all have is particularly strong in these young boys and, unless some ultimate goal is shown to them, I am afraid the Air Training Corps will go on dwindling and dwindling until it finally disappears. The same is true of the officers of the committees, of the general public, of the man in the street who gives a shilling to help along some Air Training Corps activity, of the shopkeeper who puts up a bill in his window advertising some Air Training Corps activity, or the doctor who gives up his time to carry out a medical examination of the boys—those people have now lost

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  interest. They must be satisfied with the general worthiness of the object, they must know its purpose, and they must feel that the work they are doing is really worth doing, and it is because of this lack of leadership at the top that the numbers are rapidly going down.
  What are the numbers? I have no doubt that whoever replies to this Debate will say, "The last returns show that we have got X"—probably it will be about 130,000. Those figures, whatever those figures are, are not correct. The last figures were obtained last October, six months ago, and since that time the land slide has taken place, If the Minister gets new figures up-to-date now, he will find they are about half of what the figures were in October, provided they are correct figures. That is not all. Of any squadron in the county now, what proportion of these cadets attend the parades? Perhaps 3o per cent., but not more—I have made inquiries—unless it is some big occasion. I have no doubt, if the Secretary of State were to say he would address the squadrons there would be a 99 per cent. turnout. If he would make a surprise visit and check-up the number of boys on parade with the number who should be there, I doubt if it would be in excess of a third. I ask him to come and stay with me in Gloucestershire and we will do a tour unannounced and count the boys on parade and check the paper figures, and I think he will find that I am correct. It is always easy to be critical, and I feel that we ought to do what we can to save the Air Training Corps from the wreck. It is up to us to put up constructive suggestions. Spring has arrived. It is time the Secretary of State started pecking at his shell. It is time he stopped hibernating and came out of his Air Ministry cocoon. It is time he looked around and put his finger on the public pulse. Why does not the Secretary of State go to the microphone to-morrow and tell the public the truth about the Air Training Corps, tell them that it belongs to them, that it has been run by the public and not by the Air Ministry in the past, and that there are probably 2,000,000 people actively interested in its welfare. Let him tell the parents and the workers, the aldermen, the mayors and the instructors that there is a future for air training. Let him tell them that this bottleneck is only temporary, that they have done a grand job
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  of work but that there is still more to be done. Why not tell them that the Air Training Corps is the only gate of entry to the Royal Air Force? When a cadet joins the Air Training Corps he has to give an honourable undertaking that he will join the R.A.F. All we ask is that the Air Ministry should do the same. What are the objections to making it the only gate through which people can get into the Air Force? I have made exhaustive inquiries and I have found one. The Secretary of State likes to have a back door entrance through which a few favourite ones can enter. That is reasonable. There are some people who for one reason or other are not able to join the Air Training Corps and it would be a pity to lose them. But I am prepared to make an exception, provided they can satisfy an independent tribunal.
  What we all want is to put a stop to the present "racket." A boy who has been in the Corps for three years, has attended all the parades and come up to the highest possible standard is directed to the mines or to the Army. His younger brother, who has taken no interest in the Corps and has done nothing but enjoy himself, gets into the Royal Air Force. We feel that that should be stopped, and that the Air Training Corps should be the only possible gate to getting into the Air Force, Civil Aviation and the aircraft industry. I am confident in my own mind that, if the Secretary of State were to go to the S.P.A.C. and say: "Will you give a preference when taking on people in the future to boys who have the proficiency certificate?" they would one and all say "Yes." My hon. Friend controls the S.P.A.C. He is their only customer. If I were a business man with one customer who asked me to do something, I should do my best to meet him. If the Secretary of State asked the S.P.A.C. that question he would get a straight "Yes." Then there is the question of the flying clubs and of the volunteer reserve units, the civil air guard of the future and the auxiliary squadrons of the future. Is there any reason why boys who have attained the proficiency standard should not after the war have some preference, why they should not get in on the ground floor, and why they should not have 10 hours free flying?
  There is the question of an Advisory Council. Everyone connected with the Air Training Corps want that, and we

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  want everyone on it, not only the Service people but industry, the trade unions, the education authorities, civil aviation, the committees, etc. Then, when we have got it going, let us go further and invite the Dominions to send representatives, not that we want them to meddle with our internal affairs, but to co-operate with us with a view to an interchange of cadets between the Dominions themselves and between the Dominions and this country. I believe that at the moment the wrong people are running these youth organisations. Civil aviation was always regarded as a retiring ground for Air Marshals. That is no longer available. That has been taken away from the Secretary of State's Department and put elsewhere, but these Air Marshals have now the Air Training Corps. I do not believe that worn out, decayed Air Marshals or Poona wallahs are the right people to run a youth organisation. A youth organisation should be run by people, if possible, under 3o, who are keen on their job and who would resign rather than see the boys let down. There are civilian committees attached to air squadrons. Why should not they be reconstituted and revived? Why should they not have the powers which an hon. Member opposite suggested? If they have ideas of their own or views or opinions, they cannot approach the Secretary of State. There is no one they can approach. Why should they not have a direct channel of approach to him or to the commandant?
  I would give the right hon. Gentleman a word of warning from the financial side. The policy of paying a squadron so much per cadet is breaking down. Squadrons are getting into debt because, when they had a large number of cadets, they incurred certain overhead expenses. Now the cadets are shrinking but the overheads are still there and, unless the finance is overhauled, many squadrons will have to close down for lack of funds. There are the officers and instructors who went into the Corps as a job of work for the war. When the war ends they will want to get out and hand over to the new generation. Why not notify all the men coming out of the Royal Air Force of the existence of the Air Training Corps and ask them to help? Then those men will be able to retire and we shall get fresh blood into the Service. I have asked for more help from the R.A.F. for the Air Training
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  Corps. If a cadet goes to a Service station he is under the direct command of the staff commander, whose duty it is to look after him. The staff commander cannot give that cadet a free meal, he has to charge him for it. Surely the boy should be entitled to a free lunch. I will go further and suggest that my right hon. Friend might very usefully order commanding officers of the various stations, who helped us in a wonderful way in the past, not only to feel that the cadets are their responsibility while they are on the stations, but to be responsible for the whole of the squadrons when they are at their headquarters, even if they are off the stations.
  Then there is the air crew selection board farce. A hundred boys go up to the board knowing perfectly well that only one or two can get through and that the other 96 of 97 per cent. will be rejected. They go away feeling that they are not fit for the Royal Air Force and are automatically drafted without a word of warning into the Army or the pits. I understand that the Fleet Air Arm is still open for recruits. If that is so, the right thing to do is to give these rejects the opportunity to go into it before they are driven into the Army or the pits. On the question of huts, I know that my right hon. Friend has rules and regulations saying how squadrons can get huts, but how many squadrons have got them? I spent nearly 18 months writing letters trying to get huts and never succeeded. I have never known a squadron that has succeeded. In spite of all rules and regulations and the instructions given by the Air Ministry, it would be far easier for me, with my corporation, to get through the eye of a needle than to get a hut for the county of Gloucester. It is absolutely impossible.
  May I put my last suggestion? Perhaps it will be out of Order, but now is the time to do it. We want county air territorial associations, as the Army has its county associations, to look after the Air Training Corps, flying clubs, volunteer reserve squadrons, and the auxiliary squadrons. In other words, we want county air territorial associations to mother the air activities in the counties just as the Army Territorial Associations look after the Army activities. I beg my right hon. Friend to act now. If he leaves it for another three months it will be too late;

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  I do not believe that the Air Training Corps will be in existence then as a national asset. Unless he moves very soon this priceless national asset will have gone for ever, never to be revived.
  6.54 p.m.
  Mr. Sexton: The Secretary of State to-day paid a great and worthy tribute to the Royal Air Force, and that tribute has been endorsed by the people of this country and by all our Allies. The high standard which he proclaimed to have been attained was partly attained by various methods of organisation, not least of which is the Air Training Corps. I rather regret that I have to add my criticism of the Air Ministry for the way in which they have dealt and are dealing with that worthy organisation. The Amendment first points to the appreciation of the valuable services which have been rendered by the A.T.C. Then it goes on to regret the lack of leadership by the Air Council. Lastly, it points out the need for a more definite declaration of policy towards the A.T.C. by the Air Council. There is no doubt that the A.T.C. is gradually dwindling in numbers. I hold in my hand a letter from the Durham County Air Training Corps Association, and it is because of this letter that I am saying these few words. My hon. Friend the Member for East Hull (Mr. Muff) has already referred to the association which covers Northumberland,
  Durham and Yorkshire. It points out that they have, with some anxiety, viewed the rapid deterioration in strength of the various A.T.C. units, which has been due mainly, they say, to the absence of any official pronouncement on postwar policy. The Yorkshire Air Training Corps Association passed a resolution in October, 1944, in which some stinging phrases are used. It talks about "gravest concern" and
  "the serious condition of the A.T.C. consequent upon the failure of many cadets to obtain admission to the flying service and upon the fact that no positive and progressive policy has been announced for the future of the Corps."
  The resolution, a copy of which was sent to the Air Ministry, goes on to make certain recommendations, some of which have been mentioned in the Debate. One of the recommendations on which it puts great emphasis is that a more generous attitude towards finance and accommodation should be adopted, and that the ques-
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  tion of cadet's personal equipment, flying facilities, including gliding and training equipment should be treated as matters of urgency. That resolution was passed in October, 1944. On 14th February this year a letter from the Yorkshire Air Training Corps Association to the Durham County Association points out that since then there has been a further serious deterioration of all units in the county and that there is a fear of the whole corps disintergrating. In face of such stinging sentences the Air Ministry will have to take the whole matter into serious consideration.
  Valuable suggestions have been thrown out in this Debate. First, there should be a definite and declared policy. Second, there should be some sort of a council to carry out that policy. After the training is over, these boys should either go into the R.A.F. or, when peace comes, be allowed to enter civil aviation. In Elizabethan times the boys were sea-minded and the Spanish Main was the great attraction. All the hardships and privations that had to be suffered did not prevent them from joining. Nowadays the boys are air-minded. Even the little toddlers in the streets look up into the sky and say "Another bomber."
  They play with their toys, which very often consist almost entirely of toy aeroplanes. The youth of to-day are no less courageous and adventurous than the youth of Elizabethan days. We hear some of these boys, when they come back from operational flights, speak lightheartedly and laughingly of a "piece of cake" Everybody knows that the piece of cake contains some disagreeable in gradients The currants are there, but they are currents of air, which had to be overcome by the manipulation of the machine. The spices were all there, but they were spices of extreme danger. Some of the cake was iced too, because icing conditions add very considerably to the difficulties of flying.
  What about the boys who joined the Air Training Corps and are now being attracted away from it? That "piece of cake" is going to turn to the dry bread of frustration. Something must be done. It has been rightly said in the Debate that training in the A.T.C. is one of the most valuable educational trainings that there possibly can be. I am speaking with a little authority because, being a

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  schoolmaster, I know the value the boys are bound to get from that training. So I feel sure, now that we have all uttered our lamentations, that the Air Ministry will take into serious consideration the future of the A.T.C. and will do all they can. They have the knowledge and the means of making the A.T.C. even stronger than it has ever been before. I urge upon them to try all they possibly can to revive the enthusiasm which brought about such a fine response in the days that have gone.
  7.3 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Air (Commander Brabner): I should like to thank the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment. I can only say, since I have been exhorted from all sides of the House to try to give a definite statement of policy in regard to the A.T.C., that those exhortations may eventually cocoon their way into my right hon. Friend's nest, and urge him to come out into the Spring weather, when no doubt a policy for the A.T.C. will emerge. I shall try as far as I am able to bring some small grains of comfort to the large number of Members who have been, to say the least of it, somewhat critical of the Air Ministry in this matter.
  I must say at the very start that there is a very large number of things upon which a decision has not been taken and upon which it is impossible to make any decisive statement. The hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Touche) introduced the Amendment with a charming speech which was not as critical as some of those which followed it. The Seconder exhorted me to all sorts of actions and to indulge in policies on behalf of His Majesty's Government which I do not think, upon mature consideration, we could expect the Air Ministry to adopt. We are surely all actuated by a desire to help the A.T.C., whether we are critical of the Air Ministry or not and it would be wrong if I were to try to make a rosy coloured speech, giving a sort of pink bedizenment to the whole show, which would be quite out of order with the facts. We cannot give the abundant reassurances to all the officers, warrant officers, committees and cadets of the A.T.C. that they would wish, at a time when the man-power allocation for the R.A.F. has been cut to a mere fraction of what it was before. I hope that I can get that idea across to the House.
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  When they formed the A.T.C., the Government had wholehearted support. It is no matter of doubt that the great effort which was then put into the Corps has contributed very largely to the success of the air battles which are going on at the moment and of which my right hon. Friend spoke this morning. It is ironical to say at the same time that the very success which the A.T.C. achieved, in maintaining the Royal Air Force at such a high standard, has contributed directly to the feeling of frustration which is now in the Corps. Let us be brutally frank about this matter. These young men are not, at the moment, required in such large numbers in the R.A.F. because their elder brothers have achieved that ascendancy in the air which we all desire. The House will appreciate what the alternative to that would be. I do not think the Government, because they made, if you like, some over-insurance in this policy, can be unduly blamed.
  As I said, these A.T.C. cadets have contributed very largely to winning the battle of the air. I think only one hon. Member mentioned that, while ioo,000 or more A.T.C. cadets have entered the R.A.F., even during last year when there has been so much criticism, 18,000 cadets have gone into the R.A.F. and 3,000 into the Fleet Air Ann. I do not think it is fair with that sort of intake into the R.A.F., to cry as much havoc as some hon. Members have done. It is not in the real interests of the A.T.C. to do so, because there is still some intake into the R.A.F. I hope to say later on how one hopes in time that this intake will be increased. I wish I could say that we had a cut-and-dried plan for the postwar A.T.C. but I cannot. I do not think that either the Air Ministry or my standing committee can be blamed for that. We have to see what the R.A.F. will look like in phase two. We do not know how much of the Air Force is going to be engaged in occupying Germany or how much of it is going to be in South-East Asia. It is, therefore, impossible to put down a cut-and-dried plan of the constitution of the R.A.F. after the war with Germany, and, therefore, of the state of the A.T.C. I will say that we shall do everything possible. I started out by saying that we are all anxious to help the A.T.C. and to maintain the training facilities at as high a level as possible. In our own interests we shall do that. Can

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  I say more than that? I do not think any hon. Member can ask me to be more definite.
  Notwithstanding all those reservations and imponderables, I want to say a few things which are definite and certain. There will be an A.T.C. after the war. It will continue as a voluntary cadet organisation, under the control of the Air Ministry. I think hon. Members should know that. There is no question of there being a stand-down. There will be an A.T.C. after the war. Secondly, the A.T.C. will continue to receive financial support and it will be the main source of entry into the R.A.F. and its reserves. I know this has been said before, but I feel that these things, which are certain. must be set against the things upon which it is as yet impossible to take a decision.
  Whether National Service is retained or not, the Air Force will require volunteers both for regular service and for non-regular air forces. It is also true that service in the A.T.C. must be of immense value, whether a cadet goes into the R.A.F. or one of the other armed Services. We should not forget the splendid record that A.T.C. cadets have won for themselves in other Forces, and the happiness with which many of them have expressed their recognition of what has been done for them in the A.T.C. I hope they will be able to enter Civil Aviation and the aircraft industry.
  I know what disappointment and frustration cadets feel if, after working hard and gaining their certificate of proficiency, there is no room for them in the R.A.F. If there is National Service after the war every young man will have an opportunity of expressing a preference for a particular Service. We can be certain that only volunteers will be required for air crews. I should like that to go out to the A.T.C. Although the Air Force will only be entitled to its quota of young men who are coming foward, and this quota will depend on the size of the R.A.F. in relation to the other two Services in the post-war period, I say definitely that we shall take steps from now on to ensure that the output of the post-war A.T.C. bears a close relationship to the intake requirements of the R.A.F. Hon. Members have mentioned a policy of drift. That is putting it far too low. We have these things under—to use the hackneyed phrase—"active consideration." Hon.
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  Members laugh, but I would not evade my responsibilities in this respect. The hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Perkins) has maintained that I cannot be blamed for these things. I am only too happy to take responsibility, as chairman of the A.T.C. Standing Committee. When I say that these things are under active consideration, I can assure hon. Members that they are. We are taking steps to see that the output of the A.T.C, will be in close relationship to what will be required in the R.A.F. after the war.
  I do not think this Government can commit any successor to a policy of financial support to the A.T.C. in very changing circumstances. I will say in a minute what we have done very recently to improve the financial support which will be given to units. So far as we can see, the financial support will continue, as at present, to take two main forms, the provision of free equipment and services and the payment of capitation grants either at fixed rates or on a reimbursement basis within fixed limits. We cannot go further than that, and I do not think hon. Members can expect us to. We have been asked, Why cannot we recognise the A.T.C. as the sole source of recruitment for the R.A.F.? There are objections to that, and all I feel I should say is that there will be candidates with high claims. The hon. Member for Stroud mentioned some exceptions which might occur—that a man, from the point of view of his place of residence, might not have been able to join the A.T.C. We do not want to exclude Dominion and Colonial cadets.
  Mr. Perkins: Does my hon. and gallant Friend realise that there are very efficient air training corps in Canada, Australia and New Zealand?
  Commander Brabner: Yes, but presumably these will be required for recruitment to the Dominion Air Forces after the war. I do not think it is politically correct, in these days, to impose the policy of the closed shop and all the restrictive practices we hear about, on such an organisation as this. We ought to be proud to say that we take the best, and I hope the A.T.C. will regard this as a challenge to provide the best. It seems to me they can have no complaint about that. If we say that they are the main channel of recruitment, that surely is all they can fairly ask.

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  We are clear that the basic organisation of the corps in these local units will continue. We do not want to run this organisation rigidly from the Air Ministry. We want to try to keep our finger on the pulse of public opinion, and changes will continually be made as we move forward into new conditions of peace. These local committees, I have no doubt, will have an increasing part to play in the change-over period. Experience during the war has shown their great value.
  I have been asked two or three times to-night about the question of a national advisory council. I took the opportunity of attending the last Commandants' Conference in London and meeting all the Commandants from this country, Wales and Scotland, and I certainly heard what they had to say about it. This matter of an advisory council is now being considered. I am not ready, or prepared, to say how far we shall be able to get with it, but I was fully seized of the views of the Commandants. As I say, the matter is now being considered in the Air Ministry, and we will get on with it as fast as we can. What we have in mind for the immediate future of the A.T.C.—things which I hope will be done straight away—includes a scheme we have just introduced under which A.T.C. units which are badly in need of accommodation for training purposes, and which cannot provide it, will in certain circumstances have huts provided for them. I am not certain if it is the same scheme as the hon. Member for Stroud mentioned. If he has difficulty in getting these huts I hope he will communicate with ere. Units will have to pay an economic rent for the huts, but this will be chargeable to their Government grants. After that comes a new arrangement we have made about capitation grants. The Government grant payable for each efficient cadet has been increased from a maximum rate of 15s. to a maximum rate of £1 I hope that will give some relief to the sorely tried committees of the A.T.C
  As we get back to peace-time conditions it will probably be desirable to arrange some degree of amalgamation of existing squadrons and flights into larger units. This process has already started, and I hope it will continue. I feel that this should indicate to hon. Members that we are not allowing the thing to drift. I do
  1972
  not want to be too brutally frank about the A.T.C., but I have tried to explain to hon. Members what is our position at the moment, when there is a nil, or practically nil, allocation of R.A.F. manpower; that is why we are asking for amalgamations. Where units are falling, we are asking that they be amalgamated with other units, which Seems to me to be a reasonable and sensible policy, and I hope hon. Members will themselves regard it as such. No final decision has been taken about the organisation of the non-regular air forces after the war. We are actively considering this. The position will naturally be affected. There, again, I am glad to say that while neither I nor my right hon. Friend can be held responsible for the size of the regular or non-regular air forces after the war, there is obviously consideration, and considerable consideration, being given to those two points. I hope that we shall find town centres on the pre-war R.A.F.V.R. model, about which most Members knew. It may be desirable to affiliate A.T.C. units as closely as possible to those town centres, which will give them the benefit of the integration of the command and supervision of the R.A.F. reserve formation, and also joint accommodation and other facilities, such as training. There again, we shall do our best to see that there is a workable relationship between the A.T.C., the Reserve formations, and the post-war R.A.F.
  Mr. Perkins: Do I understand that the old Volunteer Reserve is going to be reformed, working from town centres?
  Commander Brabner: I would not like to be tied down to that. We shall form something along those lines, but I would not like to be asked to go further. We shall also try to maintain and extend the system of affiliation to operational and other units of the R.A.F., and I hope we shall see the future development of the A.T.C. in conjunction with the regular Air Force. What about flying? It is obvious that we want to get as much flying as we can into these young chaps. I hope that we shall be able to increase or make better use of the flying facilities which we have at the moment. There is a special centre at Halton, which last year did 3,500 hours flying, and something like 100,000 cadet flights were made. I hope that we shall be able to increase this. My hon. and gallant Friend

  1973
  the Member for Chichester (Lt.-Commander Joynson-Hicks) mentioned the amount of flying which naval units had done with A.T.C. cadets. I hope that that will continue. We have also been considering lately, urged on by questions from my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Sir W. Wakefield), the question of improving gliding facilities, and the amount of gliding in gliding flights last year trebled. We shall see that that trend goes on. Recently we have formed a sport board, which will look after and foster sports and athletics throughout the Corps.
  I know that this is a subject on which hon. Members feel strongly. I have tried—I am afraid rather hurriedly at this late hour—to put clearly and frankly what is uncertain, and also what is certain. I think it is not doing the A.T.C. a great service to "cry 'havoc'" very loudly at this moment. We are not unaware of the frustration and disappointment which the successful prosecution of the war is unavoidably bringing home to these A.T.C. cadets, but I should like to conclude by quoting from a letter from the Chief of Air Staff, who said:
  "The time will come again when the R.A.F. will welcome every fit and suitable young man that the Corps can train, for the A.T.C. is firmly established as an integral part of our training organisation."
  I have taken a long note of many of these varied points which have been raised this evening. I felt that, so far as I was able, I ought to make clear the policy of the Air Ministry. There are a number of points on which hon. Members have asked for enlightenment, and perhaps I could answer them now. The hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) asked about the Council of Welfare. This is not a particularly active body, and it is not composed of gentlemen selected entirely for their political affiliation. I think that that should have been clear to him; otherwise, there would have been a different balance. Because it happens to be short of Members of his party, that is not necessarily a criticism, because this body is, selected primarily for welfare work in the A.T.C.
  Mr. Dugdale: What are their qualifications?
  Commander Brabner: Generally speaking, that they take a strong interest in the A.T.C. They have a system of work-
  1974
  ing on day-to-day matters through the chairman and the secretary, and within the last three weeks a notice has been issued to all units of the A.T.C. inviting attention to the facilities which the Council of Welfare can offer. A number of points were raised by my hon. Friend the Member for East Hull (Mr. Muff); I hope that I dealt with them so far as the advisory committee were concerned by saying that we were giving the matter active consideration. The hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hughes) made a point about boys who, through joining the A.T.C., will be deprived after the war of some benefits which they might have had. That really is not the case. If they can prove that their post-school education has been interrupted they are eligible for these grants under the Hankey scheme. I do not think that you could write down any lack of benefits they get to the A.T.C. If they can prove that their education has been interrupted they will be eligible for grants after the war.
  Mi. Hughes: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman answer that point more fully? The case I put is the case of cadets who have gone into the A.T.C. instead of going in for education after they left school. What is their position? They cannot possibly qualify under the Hankey scheme.
  Commander Brabner: The hon. and learned Member must not ask the A.T.C. to make provision for those young men. We praise them for their patriotism, and I hope we give them good instruction and a reasonably good time in the A.T.C. We cannot be accused of taking away benefits from them. If they prove that their education has been interrupted they qualify.
  Mr. Hughes: Their education had not started.
  Commander Brabner: You cannot blame the A.T.C. for that. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chichester brought out a certain naval background, which he felt was lacking in the A.T.C. I can only assure him that the A.T.C. would welcome closer naval support and co-operation in its activities, and I am certain that we shall get it in the near future. I have tried to make a short statement on the A.T.C. and to answer some of the questions. I have taken a

  1975
  note of all of them, and I hope hon. Members will see that their suggestions have been received favourably. We shall do our best to consider them all, with a view to destroying this feeling of frustration and to improving the prospects of the A.T.C. in future.
  Mr. Stokes: On a point of Order. The Secretary of State told us in the Debate that we were to have an answer to the questions we raised earlier. We have had no reply.
  Mr. Speaker: The reply on the general Debate is to come.
  Mr. Stokes: Is the Under-Secretary going to reply again?
  Mr. Touche: Although the grains of comfort are very small, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," again proposed.
  7.29 p.m.
  Mr. Loverseed: I would like to follow the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Tree), who raised one or two points concerning the training of pilots, and their navigational training in particular. I think I understand exactly the point he referred to. I would suggest that the fault lies not so much with the training of R.A.F. personnel as with the selection of the personnel who are posted to Transport Command. I think that rather more discrimination in that direction would lead to better results. I most sincerely hope that the impression has not been given, as I am sure it was not intended, that anything lacking in the training of Royal Air Force personnel, either for flying or ground duties. I can speak from personal experience of the Royal Air Force training after something like nine years' active service in the Royal Air Force, and I consider that the R.A.F. training, as far as pilots are concerned, is absolutely second to none, and, what is more, one of the outstanding things which this war has produced is that, despite all difficulties of the hard years of 1940 and 1941, the standard of training of pilots has been kept at a very high level indeed. I think this is one of the outstanding achievements of the Air Ministry. That also, I think, applies, though perhaps to a lesser extent, to the training
  1976
  of the ground staff and of the mechanics in the flights.
  Before the war, we had a wonderful scheme—the Halton apprentices scheme—for training tradesmen, and it was a scheme which turned out first-class tradesmen of which the R.A.F. can be justly proud. They are men who have formed the nucleus of the new technical force of the Royal Air Force which has been built around them during this war. It has, quite obviously, been necessary to dilute the technical forces of the R.A.F. to some extent, but I think they are amongst the best to be found in this country. I have not, in my experience, come across any really bad maintenance in the Royal Air Force. In fact, the only faulty maintenance in my experience has come, not from R.A.F. personnel, but from civilian maintenance parties who had the re-building or complete overhaul of an engine. I do not think any criticism whatever can be levelled at the R.A.F. maintenance personnel, and I hope that no misapprehension will be caused in the public mind about this.
  What I particularly wish to speak about is the position of the sergeant pilot in the R.A.F. Here, again, I can claim to speak with some experience, as one who has served, oddly enough, as a commissioned officer, and later as a non-commissioned pilot in the Royal Air Force. Speaking with experience of both sides of it I hold the view that all pilots should be commissioned. I think that is the only way of overcoming certain anomalies which are present in the Service to-day. It has been stated in the House by the Secretary of State for Air that commissioning to-day, and commissioning opportunities in the R.A.F. are, in fact, unlimited. I am afraid that that is not borne out in practice. I feel that the R.A.F. pilot has to submit to a very hard training, and passes out from that training replete with the symbol of his skill in his pilot's badge, of which all pilots are so justly proud. There is no question whatever the standard of skill and proficiency necessary to acquire the pilot's badge in the Royal Air Force would secure for its holder a commission in the Army at any time, and yet, in most cases, the man passes out from his flying course with his flying badge as a sergeant pilot. In the commissioning of pilots, in my own experience, there have been many anomalies.

  1977
  At one time, I believe, a list used to be sent from the Air Ministry requiring, from a certain course passing out from their training school, say, a dozen commissions. It might happen that on that particular course there were 20 or so very brilliant men, all worthy of a commission at any time, yet only 12 would be allotted commissions. On another course, there may pass out perhaps a mere handful, perhaps half a dozen, who are worthy of coin-missions by the standards set, and yet, on that occasion, the Air Ministry may require as many as 20 commissions. It is very difficult for a man to get a commission once he has passed out from flying training school, and the position of the sergeant pilots in the R.A.F. is, in many ways, an unenviable one. I do not believe that sufficient credit has been given to the sergeant pilots in this war. The pilots of the Service are associated in the public minds almost entirely with officers, but much brilliant and sterling work has been done by the sergeant pilots which has not been sufficiently recognised.
  Under the present system, many anomalies from time to time creep in. I am quite aware that the captain of an aircraft has, in the air, complete and full authority over all members of his crew, and very rightly so, but frequently we find that the captain of an aircraft is a sergeant pilot, who is carrying as members of his crew commissioned officers. The sergeant pilot has full authority in the air, but that authority disappears as soon as the aircraft touches down upon the ground.
  It does not happen in practice, because, fortunately, there is a marvellous sense of comradeship among all flying personnel, but it is possible, and I have known one or two instances, that when the captain of an aircraft is a sergeant he is likely to be intimidated by the presence of officers with him in his crew. There may be an occasion on which the pilot's judgment differs from that of his second pilot or navigator and he is likely to take a decision against his better judgment which affects the safety of the aircraft. I feel that that position should not be allowed to arise in any circumstances in the onerous duties of flying. The captain of an aircraft should be senior to any member of his crew. In my maiden speech in this House, I referred to the anomaly which creeps in affecting the pensions in that particular case, where it is quite pos-
  1978
  sible that the widow of the captain of an aircraft, the man who carries the full responsibility for the safety of the aircraft and crew, receives a pension rather less than will be given in the cases of certain other members of the crew. That is an anomaly which can only be remedied by ensuring that the captain of an aircraft is senior to any member whom he carries in the crew.
  Not only among flying personnel, but among all the personnel who tend, care for and maintain aircraft, there is a comradeship and a spirit which are not to be found in any other Service, something which, I think, is peculiar to the R.A.F. There are also—and it is rather difficult for me to speak of this—other branches in the Air Force which are not intimately concerned with the servicing and maintenance of aircraft, but which are equally necessary and which perform very valuable services. I refer to the administrative branches of the Service. There is friendly rivalry between these two branches of the Service.
  I have known two administrative types called by the flying personnel, without any disrespect, such names as "Wingless Wonders" or "Penguins," and the flying types called perhaps far less pleasant names by the administrative branch. Nevertheless, in certain instances, some of these jealousies become a little more acute. At such times it is very often the sergeant-pilot who is made the prey for some of these little frictions and jealousies. I have been on stations in which the air crew of the Royal Air Force were regarded by certain of the administrative branch as having little more than nuisance value. They were segregated, and the messes in which they were put were regarded as something almost unclean. That is wrong and should be overcome by giving to the air crews a rather higher standard than that which they enjoy at the moment.
  In conclusion, I would like to follow the hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Sir M. Sueter) in one plea he made with regard to the future of the personnel who are flying to-day. From 1929 to 1934 I served on a short service commission. I regard the short service scheme as being in every way most excellent, and I hope some way will be devised in future of extending the short service principle to all branches of the Royal Air Force. It

  1979
  maintains the youth and vigour so necessary in the senior ranks of the Service. There is everything to be said for the short service scheme, but in one respect it has now fallen down. It has failed to provide the jobs for the men on the completion of their commissions. Even after five years' flying in peace time a man was so imbued with the thrill of flying that he found it extremely difficult to settle down to any other form of civilian employment. If he could not find a job in the flying world, it was almost impossible for him to settle down to humdrum civilian employment. The problem is going to be very much more acute at the end of the present war. When men have not only enjoyed the thrill of flying but have been in acute contact with the enemy and seen war conditions, it is going to be much more difficult, or almost impossible, for them to settle down to many of the jobs at which they were employed before. Therefore, I hope that some means will be found or sought of absorbing these men into flying concerns after the war and that the men who are flying to-day will, in fact, be given priority in post-war civil aviation.
  7.44 p.m.
  Mr. Emmott: I only want to make a few remarks on a very few points. The Secretary of State this morning had a very fine story to tell. He presented to the House a fine picture; and if I mention a few of the matters that belong to the process of making the picture, I think they will be found to be important in their way and in their own place, and if some attention is paid to them and some improvement is effected the result will be even better. The Secretary of State referred very pertinently to the measures that we have to begin to take now towards the construction of the Air Force we wish to maintain in peace. These things are not too late to be considered for the remainder of this war, and it is not too early to consider them for the Air Force which we really must maintain in peace. Whatever I say does not in any way diminish the great merit of the performance of the Air Force but rather enhances it. The merit is the greater if so remarkable results as those which the Secretary of State described have been secured in spite of certain defects.
  1980
  The first thing upon which I want to say something is the mechanical equipment at R.A.F. stations. An hon. and gallant Member pointed out that the supply of mechanical equipment is by no means satisfactory. Many times work has been held up in the Air Force by lack of such things as heavy cranes and tractors, aircraft jacks, transport and small tools.. The question I would like to ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman is, Why has this deficiency existed? Has the Air Ministry-demanded a sufficiency of these things with enough determination? I ask the. question as a simple interrogative. The answer may be that the Department or Departments competent to supply them have not found themselves in a position to supply the equipment which the Air Ministry has demanded. But is this the answer to the question? Is the Air Ministry satisfied that in respect of these things there is an adequate establishment?
  There are other things of rather a technical nature which are worth mentioning. The war-time hangar is very unsatisfactory, especially in the kind of weather which is common in this country. There is a great deal of dissatisfaction with it. I believe that the standard tool-kit, too, is regarded as quite out of date. The tools which airmen—fitters and riggers—have to use are often not of very good quality. I believe that they often break in use. Consequently airmen frequently buy or make their own. Where civilian firms are working alongside the R.A.F. on sites and a comparison between the equipment of the employees of the civilian firms and the equipment of the R.A.F. is made, it is often very unsatisfactory. American tools, on the other hand, are of excellent quality.
  The only other point on which I want to say something is a matter which it is not very easy to state precisely but it is one upon which there is a good deal of concern and feeling in the country. It is the question of the consideration of ideas on technical and other questions which arise in the course of the work of the Air Force, the consideration of ideas and suggestions which come from below, from other ranks and junior officers. I know it may be said that the more senior ranks in the Air Force are always most willing and anxious to consider fresh ideas, but nevertheless there is a rather general feeling in the Air Force that it is difficult

  1981
  to get new ideas from junior officers and other ranks considered in the way they should be. Probably it is a question of atmosphere more than anything else, but it may be also one of administration, and I wonder whether something cannot be done to clear the channels.
  My last point is that the Air Force naturally attracts to itself many different types of men who have a very wide range of varied technical knowledge and aptitudes and these men often have considerable inventive talent. Many of them, I am afraid, feel that the ideas they put up on technical questions, and upon questions of general administration, do not obtain that easy. course to the top, to the men who have to decide whether or not the suggestions shall be adopted, which is their due. Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend in the course of his reply may be able to say something on these points.
  7.52 p.m.
  Commander Brabner: I am afraid at this late hour that it will not be easy or advisable for me to try to answer in detail many of those points which have been brought up in the course of to-day's Debate. We certainly have ranged over an immense field, from the price of land in Middlesex, to pig-keeping in Regent's Park, and on to the higher mechanics of jets, and the latest forms of cranes and tools for the Royal Air Force. I am bound to say to the hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) that the question of Civil Aviation which he raised is really not one for me to answer. He will appreciate, I am certain, as well as anybody else, that it is now a matter of Government policy that Civil Aviation matters are dealt with by another Ministry—
  Mr. Montague: But that Ministry does not exist yet.
  Commander Brabner: At the same time the hon. Member had an opportunity of debating Civil Aviation questions about two weeks ago and, when the White Paper appears, there will be, I take it, further opportunities for Debate on that question.
  Mr. Montague: I am sorry to intervene, especially so soon, but the hon. and gallant Gentleman must know that the essence of what I have to say, the burden of my point, lay in the fact that the pos-
  1982
  sible content of the White Paper has been made public in advance of a statement to this House. That is the point I wanted dealt with.
  Commander Brabner: I am sorry. If the hon. Member has access to forms of information which are not available to other hon. Members of the House, he has no complaint to make to us on that.
  Mr. Montague: I have. It has been made available to other people before this House has had a chance—
  Commander Brabner: The Minister has had consultations on this matter but, as explained by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aircraft Production thismorning—
  Mr. Montague: It was an important point I raised.
  Commander Brabner: The hon. Member will have an opportunity of debating these matters when the White Paper appears. It will be a statement of Government policy. I do not propose to deal with Civil Aviation this evening. The hon. Member for West Islington raised a number of other points which were certainly of more germane interest to the R.A.F. He asked about conditions of the educational and vocational training scheme for recruits in distant commands, and I can assure him that we are doing all in our power to see that these men do not regard themselves as forgotten.
  Mr. Stokes: May I interrupt the hon. and gallant Gentleman on the question of Civil Aviation? Can we have an assurance from either himself or the Minister, that this information on Civil Aviation contained in the White Paper—of which my hon. Friend has apparently seen the inside—
  Commander Brabner: I must interrupt—
  Mr. Stokes: I will not give way. The hon. and gallant Gentleman must sit down.
  Hon. Members: Order.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Charles Williams): Commander Brabner.
  Mr. Stokes: The hon. and gallant Gentleman gave way to me, and I have not finished my question. Surely I am entitled to ask him my question?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If the hon. Gentleman had been content to put that question, I should not have interrupted him.
  Mr. Stokes: I was just coming to my question.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: But the question was running on to a speech, and that was why I called on Commander Brabner.
  Mr. Stokes: May I put this question to the Minister? May we have an assurance that this White Paper will not be given to the Press before it is given to the House of Commons?
  Commander Brabner: I am only too happy to give that assurance, and I should like to say that I was about to correct the hon. Member when he said that other people have seen this White Paper. What my hon. Friend saw on the Front Bench there was a draft White Paper of which he saw the outside cover in a folder belonging to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aircraft Production. There has been no divulgence of White Paper information to the public outside this House. I should like to underline that point because these sort of things ought not to be said across the floor of the House.
  Mr. Montague: I must rise to a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. These are the annual Air Estimates and we have always been able to debate the subject of Civil Aviation on them. Now the Under-Secretary says that he will not deal with Civil Aviation because there is to be a White Paper presented. The point is, surely, that no one knows anything about that White Paper; it is all presumption. On this annual occasion surely it is right and proper that this House should discuss any possible aspect of Civil Aviation and have an answer from the Minister.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Perhaps I might deal with that first. There seems to be a considerable amount of discussion about a White Paper which some people have seen, and how much they have seen of it. That is not a point of Order. Of course, any hon. Member can discuss matters dealing with the Estimates, but if, because the policy of the Government is changing at the time, or for any other reason, the Minister thinks it is not advisable to answer any point, the Minister is not bound to answer.
  Mr. Montague: Is that a constitutional Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I know nothing that can compel a Minister to answer if he does not wish to do so. I know he generally does, but I know of no Order by which I can put on force to compel a Minister to answer.
  Mr. Stokes: May I put this point? My hon. Friend who spoke earlier this afternoon referred to this White Paper, and his complaint was that we wanted to discuss Civil Aviation and the Government had nothing to tell us, when it was known that a White Paper on Civil Aviation had not only been drafted but printed, and this is the only opportunity we have to discuss it.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The question of Civil Aviation belongs to another Department and we ought not to be discussing it at all to-day.
  Commander Brabner: Perhaps I might be allowed to go on with the few remarks which I am trying to make at the conclusion of this long Debate. I should like to finish off this point by saying that there is, in actual legal fact, no White Paper as yet on this subject at all; all we are saying is that there will be a White Paper in due course, and then the House, presumably, will have an opportunity of discussing it. Further than that I do not think I can be expected to go.
  Mr. Montague: This is a very important point, and I want to raise a question with you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. These are the Air Estimates. It is perfectly true that Vote A and Vote I are particularly mentioned in the Resolution, but it has always been the practice of this House to discuss any Vote, and Vote 8 is the Vote upon Civil Aviation. The question of the White Paper does not come in—that was an aside introduced by the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) which had nothing to do with what I had to say at all. My reference was to the confidential minutes of a certain meeting which had taken place. I have no knowledge of what the White Paper may contain, nor has any other Member.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: May I ask what is the point of Order?
  Mr. Montague: The point of Order is whether we are to depart from the practice of the House ever since I have been

  1985
  in it that on the Air Force Estimates Vote 8 can be discussed and an answer can be expected.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: There has been no suggestion of that at all that I have heard of.
  Mr. Tree: Is it not a fact that a month ago, I asked the Prime Minister to whom matters appertaining to civil aviation should be addressed, and the answer was that they should be addressed to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aircraft Production.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I did not say that matters could not be discussed here, but that it is not necessary that the Minister should always reply.
  Commander Brabner: A new Department is about to be set up but, technically, its Vote is still on the Air Estimates.
  Captain P. Macdonald: On a point of Order. The hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) made certain charges against the Minister for Civil Aviation.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That does not sound very much like a point of Order. It sounds more like the repetition of a previous speech.
  Commander Brabner: A Department of Civil Aviation is about to be set up, and I understood that Civil Aviation would not be discussed on the Air Estimates. The hon. Member has raised the subject and has quoted from confidential minutes, which are, certainly, not available to me, and I do not know how they were available to him. He has quoted from them and demands a reply. I should have thought the least he could do was to furnish the Minister with a copy of the minutes, which I am unable to obtain.
  If I may deal with one or two other points that have been made, the hon. and gallant Member for Blackpool (Wing-Commander Robinson) raised matters about the post-war organisation of the Royal Air Force. We are dealing with this urgently and the air defence of the country and the importance of our key bases overseas are being considered at this moment. My hon. and gallant Friend asked me about economy of man-power in occupying enemy countries. We shall do everything we can to use our air power in order to economise in man-power. My
  1986
  hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain P. Macdonald) asked about permanent commissions in the R.A.F. after the war. We are just about to issue a preliminary list of officers who have been selected for permanent commissions. I can only assure him too that an immense number of applications have been received, and it would be a fair assumption that the attractiveness of employment in the Royal Air Force after the war is well known to those officers and men who are now serving. Prisoners of war are being given special opportunities to apply, and they will have a number of places reserved for them when they come back.
  The hon. and gallant Member and also the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Tree) raised the question of Transport Command. I would like to go into this matter rather more fully than I am able to deal with some of the other points to-night. We realise that there is considerable concern in the House about Transport Command, but I should like to thank the hon. Member for Harborough for raising the matter in a reasonable and measured way, because I do not think we get any further by talking heatedly about safety and lack of safety and care, and things like that. I assume, too, that we all agree that the crews of officers and men of Transport Command are of high quality and I have no need to enlarge on that in this House. Let me make clear one thing which I feel has not been properly appreciated, because hon. Members are continually comparing Transport Command with civil air lines. Transport Command was set up to do an operational job. It was set up to lift men and materials into the war zones. It was set up to do things like the parachute landings on D-day, and at Arnhem, and operations such as those which have just been concluded on the Burma front. It was set up also to give flexibility and striking power on all theatres of the war fronts. If hon. Members realised that these two things are its main responsibilities, the operation of trunk and feeder services throughout the world falls more naturally into its proper place.
  I do not emphasise these functions, because I wish to whitewash any of the accidents that have been occurring, but it must be said that Transport Command is flying under incomparably more difficult circumstances than any civil air line

  1987
  could contemplate at any time. It has only been possible during the last nine months for Transport Command to operate the trunk routes because, although it was formed two years ago, it has unquestionably not had the same priority as the operational commands. Now we have a new commanding officer, who is one of our most vigorous young men with a tremendous war record and who will, I hope, intensify the splendid work done by Air Chief Marshal Bowhill. We are putting new blood into this thing and it is now getting a much higher priority than it ever had before, both technical and human. I am certain the House will be pleased to hear this.
  The hon. Member for Harborough raised the problems of meteorology and maintenance. I wish I had time to explain the system that we have of briefing pilots about weather conditions along a route. There is a complete network of meteorological stations all along the trunk routes of the world. An aircraft goes from one to another and is never out of contact of these stations. The aircraft are being equipped with all the latest mechanical and radio devices that we know of. I cannot mention any of them because they are on the top secret list, but I can say that an aircraft has access to some 15 different radio aids when flying from one area of control to another. I hope that will give the House some confidence in the importance that we attach to good, first-class meteorological information.
  I should like to mention in passing that in the case of extremely important flights over new routes, the general practice is to send out an aircraft of Bomber Command along the route to get actual, practical, first-hand experience of the weather. We do everything we can to see that things are made as safe as possible. When the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. Loverseed) said that the standard of maintenance in the R.A.F. was very high, I should like to confirm that experience. The maintenance used by Transport Command is on a slightly different system. It is what is known as planned maintenance, and inspections are done all along the route to prevent aircraft being grounded for an unnecessarily long time. So far as we know, I should say that an infinitesimal proportion of accidents, almost nil, is due to bad maintenance.
  1988
  I hope the House will take that assurance from both the hon. Member for Eddisbury and myself that the maintenance of Transport Command is very good indeed, considering the needs of war-time.
  In regard to the training of crews, both the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles) and the hon. Member for Harborough raised points on the subject. All crews going into Transport Command are generally experienced. They come off operations, and many of them have extensive experience which would make the total of 1,600 hours flying look very small indeed. They go through a Transport Command O.T.U. After they have done that course, the most experienced and most efficient—they have to be graded when they come out—go on the main trunk routes and those who are less experienced and less up to standard go on to support and feeder services. This Transport Service has only just got into its stride. It, has been starved of men and materials because of the operational needs of the war.
  Now as to accidents. I do not think it would be fair ever to let it go out from this House that Transport Command was unfit. It really is not the case. It is also unfair to compare Transport Command with a civil air line, with its dots and dashes right across America, never out of contact with the beam. Take the U.K.-Gibraltar route, flanked by the enemy, the worst weather in the world, no good meteorological information, difficulties at either end, and always the danger of interception. That is the sort of thing that Transport Command has been doing and which would not be looked at by a civilian air line. I do not think hon. Members would wish it to be thought that Transport Command has to compete with a civil air line, which can always travel in great luxury. It is worthy of mention that as the front moves forward, the feeder service runs behind it. It is not a mere ancillary service but is just as important as a trunk route. It follows the retreat of the enemy.
  I would like to give the House an example. A Dakota had to go into Yugoslavia not many weeks ago on a dark night to a small aerodrome, because there was a necessity for this contact to be made. The machine overshot in the dark, because there was no proper landing ground and some people were killed. Bang

  1989
  goes the accident rate of Transport Command. You would not expect a civil air line to fly to Yugoslavia in those conditions. These matters must be treated on a strictly comparable basis and Transport Command must be given due credit for operational work that it is doing, with great safety and regularity. I am not, as I say, trying to whitewash the accidents. We have had some accidents and we are doing our very best to see that they decrease. They are decreasing, but we shall have more accidents. It is no use I or any other Member of the Government trying to explain that there will be no accidents henceforward. There will be. I have dealt rather briefly and hurriedly with Transport Command. I would like to conclude—
  Captain P. Macdonald: Will my hon. and gallant Friend deal with the point I raised about the staging posts that we are setting up all over Europe to-day? Some of them, I pointed out, were very badly run, and were a disgrace to the R.A.F. and the country they represent. I want some assurance on that matter.
  Commander Brabner: I have taken a personal interest in complaints coming into the Air Ministry about Transport Command, and I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that the very closest attention is being paid to the staging posts. I must ask him to remember that D-Day is only six months away, and Transport Command has been pioneering routes across devastated Europe and across the world. We are pumping new blood into this thing, and we will get it cleared up. I promise him that the particular staging post he mentioned is a matter of some concern to us, and I am sure that something will be done about it in the near future.
  May I conclude on a note of denial. The hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) read to the House a statement from an Associated Press war correspondent at S.H.A.E.F., in which he said that the Allied commanders had adopted a policy of terror bombing. This is absolutely not so. This report was received in this country, I think I am right in saying, at 8 o'clock, and denied at 12 o'clock. Although the message appeared in some papers, the immediate denial by S.H.A.E.F, did not appear in many papers. I should like to have an opportunity of denying it here. We are not
  1990
  wasting our bombers or time on purely terror tactics. Our job is to destroy the enemy. That is what we are doing, I hope in an ever-increasing and more efficient way. It does not do the hon. Member justice to come to this House and try to suggest that there are a lot of Air Marshals or pilots, or anyone else, sitting in a room, trying to think how many German women and children they can kill. The hon. Member comes to this House and does a mental somersault. He has been complaining about the lack of lethality of our tanks, but because Bomber Command is very lethal indeed he is complaining that it is let loose on the Germans. The two positions are incompatible. We are concentrating on war targets, and we intend to remain concentrated en them until Germany gives up.
  At the end of this Debate on the Air Estimates, in the sixth year of war, I think I can, with great sincerity, commend the efforts of the Royal Air Force to the hon. Members of this House. The Luftwaffe is just about to disappear from the European stage, I hope for ever, with little honour, and certainly very little glory. After six years of war this House would, I feel, be ready and happy to congratulate the Royal Air Force on a resounding victory, starting from very small beginnings indeed.
  Mr. Stokes: May I put this question to the hon. and gallant Gentleman? He says the report I read to the House is untrue. Will he answer this question: Why, when protest was made against it, was it stated that it was put out as official S.H.A.E.F. policy, and could not be suppressed on that account? I have evidence of that, which I shall be glad to supply to the Secretary of State for Air.
  Sir A. Sinclair: The report is certainly not true. The hon. Member may take that from me. How it was handled, what newspapers published it, and whether publication was authorised, are matters which the hon. Member had better discuss with the Minister of Information.
  Sir Patrick Hannon: May I say at the conclusion of this long Debate in this House that the House will feel that the Under-Secretary has made a very fine contribution, and that we are very proud of our young Minister?
  8.21 p.m.
  Mr. Tinker: The hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) make a statement—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We cannot go into that.
  Mr. Tinker: Then I will make a speech. The hon. Member for Ipswich said that Members of Parliament, going overseas to address the troops, were not allowed to speak to them unless their speeches were censored. I put a query to the hon. Member during his speech, but I did not press it, because I thought the point would be replied to by the Minister. I would ask the Minister to deal with it. It would make a bad impression if it went out that Members of Parliament could not address the troops as they desired.
  8.23 p.m.
  Sir A. Sinclair: I have not actually got the order to which the hon. Member referred at the moment, but I can assure the House that the situation is quite clear. Neither Members of Parliament nor anybody else can, in time of war, address the troops quite freely, and make speeches quite freely with representatives of the Press present. Security regulations have to be observed, and I know that a very large number of Members who have had facilities for addressing the troops have been not only willing, but anxious to obtain guidance from the station commanders and people who organise the meetings, as to the line they should take. That is very helpful. I know of hardly any case, although meetings of airmen have been addressed by Members of all parties, including the Commonwealth Party, in which there has been any difficulty.
  Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.
  Supply accordingly considered in Committee.
  [Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS in the Chair]

  NUMBER FOR AIR FORCE SERVICE
  Resolved:
  "That such number of Officers and Airmen, as His Majesty may deem necessary, be borne for the Air Force Service of the United Kingdom at Home and Abroad, excluding those serving in India on the Indian Establishment, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946."

  PAY, &C., OF THE AIR FORCE
  Resolved:
  "That a sum, not exceeding £100, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the Pay, &c., of the Air Force, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1946."

  AIR SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE 1944
  Resolved:
  "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10 be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1945, for expenditure beyond the sum already provided in the grants for Air Services for the year."

  SCHEDULE

  Sums not exceeding

  Supply Grants

  Appropriations in Aid

  Vote.

  1. Pay, &c., of the

  £

  £

  Air Force

  10

  230,000,000

  Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

  ADJOURNMENT
  Resolved: "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Cary.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-five Minutes after Eight o'Clock.

BRITISH ARMY
  Surplus Horses, Middle East
  Surplus Horses, Middle East
  Transit Camp (Accommodation)
  Transit Camp (Accommodation)
  Requisitioned Properties
  Requisitioned Properties
  R.A.P.C. Leave, Far East
  R.A.P.C. Leave, Far East
  COAL PRODUCTION (NORTH MIDLAND REGION)
  COAL PRODUCTION (NORTH MIDLAND REGION)
  CIVIL SERVICE (EX-SERVICEMEN)
  CIVIL SERVICE (EX-SERVICEMEN)
  WAR GRATUITIES, 1914–18
  WAR GRATUITIES, 1914–18
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Census of Production (Supplementary Information)
  Census of Production (Supplementary Information)
  Utility Furniture and Floor Coverings
  Utility Furniture and Floor Coverings
  Imports
  Imports
  Footwear Repairs
  Footwear Repairs
  Film Raw Stock
  Film Raw Stock
SCOTLAND
  Camperdown Estate
  Camperdown Estate
  Temporary Houses
  Temporary Houses
  WAR DECORATIONS AND MEDALS
  WAR DECORATIONS AND MEDALS
  POSTAL LOSSES AND COMPENSATION
  POSTAL LOSSES AND COMPENSATION
  CRAWLER TRACTORS (AGRICULTURAL WORK)
  CRAWLER TRACTORS (AGRICULTURAL WORK)
  CATERING WAGES COMMISSION (REPORT)
  CATERING WAGES COMMISSION (REPORT)
  WOOD PULP
  WOOD PULP
  FERRY AIRCRAFT CASUALTIES
  FERRY AIRCRAFT CASUALTIES
  EX-ENEMY ALIENS (BRITISHBORN WIVES)
  EX-ENEMY ALIENS (BRITISHBORN WIVES)
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (REQUISITIONED MOTOR-CARS)
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (REQUISITIONED MOTOR-CARS)
  WATER POLLUTION (RESEARCH)
  WATER POLLUTION (RESEARCH)
  CHRISTIAN SCIENCE NURSES
  CHRISTIAN SCIENCE NURSES
  ILFORD GOLF COURSE
  ILFORD GOLF COURSE
  HOUSING SITE (CHINGFORD)
  HOUSING SITE (CHINGFORD)
  BRITISH MAN-POWER
  BRITISH MAN-POWER
  WAR DAMAGE REPAIRS
  WAR DAMAGE REPAIRS
  CIVIL AVIATION (AIR CREWS)
  CIVIL AVIATION (AIR CREWS)
  RAILWAY LOSSES AND THEFTS
  RAILWAY LOSSES AND THEFTS
  REQUISITIONED TRAWLERS, SOUTH WALES
  REQUISITIONED TRAWLERS, SOUTH WALES
  EIRE (ENEMY ALIENS)
  EIRE (ENEMY ALIENS)
  ROAD TRAFFIC CONTROL
  ROAD TRAFFIC CONTROL
  TRANSPORT (STATISTICS)
  TRANSPORT (STATISTICS)