Sitting of 13 February 1945

Preamble
The House met at Eleven o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
NEW WRIT
For the County of Lanark (Motherwell Division), in the room of James Walker, Esquire, deceased.—[Mr. Whiteley.]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  NEWPORT (ISLE OF WIGHT) CORPORATION BILL
  Read a Second time, and committed.
  ILFORD CORPORATION BILL [By Order]
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SCOTLAND

    Estate Communities, North Uist (Roads)
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that the Scottish Department of
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    Agriculture estate communities at Lochportan, Hoebeg and Cheesebay, Isle of North Uist, have been without means of access by land to the main road and the rest of the island; and whether he will take steps to provide a road for these settlers.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. T. Johnston): These crofting and fishing communities, I am informed, were constituted on the basis that access would be by sea, and two boatslips were provided for that purpose, together with some five miles of connecting paths. Normal main roads are not properly charges against Land Settlement Funds. If the county council, however, should decide to include the making of a road to these townships in any post-war programme, an application for a grant-in-aid would receive full consideration.
    Mr. MacMillan: Does that mean that the Department still adhere to the principle that they can settle people and leave them without that access to the main islands by land, which they ought to have, by all civilised standards; and is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if this attitude is persisted in, the people will be driven to the last resort of evacuation, like the people of St. Kilda?
    Mr. Johnston: As my hon. Friend knows, these communities were settled some 20 years ago, by concurrence with the crofters themselves at that time, and I am informed that the condition was that access would be by sea alone. But the concluding portion of my answer stands.
    Mr. MacMillan: Is the implication of that reply, that in 20 years no progress has been made, and that in the next 20 years no progress is to be made?
    Mr. Johnston: No, Sir; I have already informed my hon. Friend in writing, and I repeat it now, that if the county council care to submit an application for a grant-in-aid, it will receive consideration.

    Housing
    Mr. McKinlayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if his Department approved of the material used and the design of the temporary houses erected by the Special Housing Association in Dumbartonshire; and will he state the cost of erection and the cost of making the houses habitable after they were occupied.
    Mr. Johnston: In view of the great need for some alleviation of the housing shortage, I authorised an experiment, in 1943, with some 500 emergency houses in four areas in the West of Scotland, based upon the Ministry of Works specimen hut at Polkemmet, for which, I was assured, stocks of prefabricated parts were available. The local authorities concerned were consulted. The cost of erection is, approximately, £720 per house, and the cost of making defective houses weatherproof is estimated at £32 10s. per house. In view of the development of the Government's temporary house programme, it is not proposed to proceed with further experiments of this kind.
    Mr. McKinlay: Was the material out of which these houses were constructed submitted to the Burt Committee; and is it not a fact that the same soggy mess is being produced throughout the country for building temporary houses for the people? Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that no more of that material will be used in Scotland?
    Mr. Johnston: I would like to have notice of the third part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question. I can say that it is not proposed to proceed with further experiments of this kind.
    Mr. McKinley: Is not this another demonstration of the incompetence of the Ministry of Works to interfere at all with housing in Scotland?
    Mr. Stokes: Or anywhere?
    Mr. McLean Watsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he can explain the delay in the construction of the 20 houses allocated to the burgh of Cowdenbeath seven months ago; and whether, in view of the urgent need for houses in this burgh, he will take steps to have the work expedited.
    Mr. Johnston: Progress generally is hampered by war-time difficulties with regard to labour supply, and, in addition, work on this scheme has been delayed by bad weather during the winter. Nevertheless 10 houses are roofed, 6 are at first floor level and 4 are at damp proof course level. The progress in construction here really compares favourably with the progress that has been found possible in some other areas. But we shall continue to take any steps in our power to expedite completion.
    Mr. Watson: Has my right hon. Friend any information which would enable him to say, approximately, when the first of these houses will be ready for occupation?
    Mr. Johnston: No, Sir; but I will find out and communicate with my hon. Friend.

    Flooding, Kelvin Valley
    Mr. McKinlayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the reason for the continued flooding in the Kelvin Valley.
    Mr. Johnston: A full investigation of the flooding, which has occurred in the Kelvin Valley notwithstanding improvements effected by the River Kelvin drainage scheme, has been made by an independent engineer of skill and experience in conjunction with the engineers of the Department of Agriculture for Scotland. Their joint reports show that the flooding is due to the abnormally heavy rainfall and discharges in the river, much in excess of those experienced for many years. The most serious flooding was caused by the overflow of tributary streams, and lesser watercourses, not included in the drainage scheme. Backflow through unprotected drainage outlets to the river was a minor contributory cause. The recommendations made in the engineer's report are receiving consideration in consultation with the National Farmers' Union, with a view to determining what further remedial work can most usefully be undertaken under the statutory provisions of the Acts of 1930 and 1935.
    Mr. McKinlay: Is my right hon. Friend aware that he himself was the father of the proposal for this scheme; and is there any reason at all why the report of the experts should not have been published long ere this? Is he also aware that farmers in the locality have suffered very heavy losses, not only in one year but every year, because of the flooding of that valley?
    Mr. Johnston: That is not correct. They do not suffer every year, but only in a year when there are abnormal floods. The drainage scheme was designed to mitigate these floods, but abnormal floods, according to the engineer's report, have not been provided against.
    Mr. McKinlay: Is my right hon. Friend aware that that area has been subject to flooding every year since I was a boy—and I know the district well? It is not a question of abnormality at all.

    Highlands and Islands (Electricity and Water Supplies)
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will seek an arrangement with the Service Departments to allow of the piped water supplies and electrical supply services in their establishments in the Highlands and Islands being taken over and extended for the use of the local communities as a first step towards provisions of a general electrical and water supply service and as a measure of economy.
    Mr. Johnston: Arrangements have already been made under which Service water and power installations in Scotland which become surplus to Government requirements, and which might be used or developed for the benefit of local inhabitants, are brought to the notice of local authorities concerned Immediately any installation becomes available in the Western Isles, I shall communicate with the appropriate local authority.
    Mr. MacMillan: Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that if the local authorities do not move in this matter, steps will be taken by the Department of Health in Scotland?
    Mr. Johnston: I would like notice of that question. I do not know what our powers are in the matter.

    Demonstration, Clydebank (Cancelled Permit)
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that the workers of Clydebank were given permission to hold a demonstration in Victoria Park, Clydebank, on Monday afternoon, 5th February; that on the eve of the demonstration the permission was withdrawn; and who was responsible for this change of decision and the reason for such a course.
    Mr. Johnston: I am informed that a permit for the use of the football ground in Victoria Public Park, Whiteinch, Glasgow, for the purpose of this demonstration, was cancelled on instructions from the magistrates. I understand that the magistrates' decision was based on the view that the proposed procession and meeting might be in contravention of Defence Regulation 1A (a).
    Mr. Gallacher: Is it not very undesirable that, when the local authorities are prepared to grant a permit for a demonstration, an intervention of this kind should be made at the last moment, on such a flimsy pretext? Will the Secretary of State assure the House that, arising out of this, no prosecutions will take place?
    Mr. Johnston: Perhaps the hon. Member will give me notice of the last part of the question. So far as I am aware, there is no intention to prosecute; but I cannot give a definite answer.
    Mr. Kirkwood: Is the Secretary of State aware that this demonstration was organised by the engineers on the Clyde, to draw public attention to the scandalous rate of pay that they receive, and that they have been negotiating an increase for six months? Why should the local authority give permission, and then cancel it? The men have no other means of drawing attention to the matter. Will the Secretary of State inquire why the demonstration was stopped?
    Mr. Johnston: Yes, Sir, that was the purport of the last part of my answer:
    "I understand that the magistrates' decision was based on the view that the proposed procession and meeting might be in contravention of Defence Regulation 1A (a)."
    Mr. Neil Maclean: Will my right hon. Friend be good enough to inform us which part of Regulation 1A (a) this demonstration is held to contravene?
    Mr. Johnston: I am not giving it as my opinion that it contravened a regulation at all. I have said, in response to the Question on the Paper, that the magistrates so interpreted it.
    Mr. Gallacher: May we take it that it is impossible to hold a demonstration in this country, under Regulation 1A (a)?
    Mr. Johnston: I should say not.

    Gas Supply, Dollar
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is aware of the difficulties of the people of Dollar obtaining gas supplies owing to there being no grid connecting the town with other supplies; and whether he can do anything to secure an adequate supply of gas at a reasonable charge.
    The Minister of Fuel and Power (Major Lloyd George): I am aware that complaints have been made about the gas supply at Dollar. These were due to minor difficulties at the gas works, which have recently been overcome. Some steps towards centralising gas supplies in the county of Clackmannan were taken prior to the war, and I understand that discussions on the inclusion of Dollar in the scheme are taking place.
    Mr. Woodburn: Can the Minister say whether that is likely to take place at an early date and whether there will be a linking-up with the grid?
    Major Lloyd George: All I know is that, at the moment, negotiations are taking place. I have not yet received the results.

  ELECTRICITY SUPPLIES
  Mr. Oldfieldasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether any progress is being made with the report of the Association of Municipal Corporations, sent to him some time ago, on the question of the furtherance of public ownership in fuel and power.
  Major Lloyd George: I presume my hon. Friend is referring to the report of the Association of Municipal Corporations on the electricity supply industry. This document, together with other proposals for the reconstruction of the electricity supply industry, is being considered by the Government, but I am unable to say
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  when I shall be in a position to make a statement on the Government's policy on this subject.
  Mr. Wootton-Daviesasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he is aware that factories which can produce electricity at a low cost are discouraged from so doing by the high stand-by charges of electricity undertakings; and what steps he is taking to encourage production of electricity by factories.
  Major Lloyd George: I have no information which indicates that, in general, electricity undertakings are quoting unreasonable terms for standby supplies of electricity. If, however, my hon. Friend will let me have particulars of any case he has in mind I shall ask the Electricity Commissioners to inquire into it. As regards the second part of the Question, as my hon. Friend is aware, the installation of a private generating plant in a factory is a complicated technical question which has to be settled on the merits of each case. During the war, the shortage of electrical plant would in any case have precluded large scale additional generation by factories. The whole subject is at present being studied by my Ministry.
  Mr. Higgsasked the Minister of Fuel and Power, if he is aware of the high charges many farmers are having to pay in order to obtain a supply of electricity; and what action he intends to take in order that these charges can be reduced to a reasonable level.
  Major Lloyd George: I would refer to the reply which I gave on the 7th March last to the hon. and gallant Member for Newbury (Brigadier-General Clifton Brown), a copy of which I am sending to my hon. Friend.
  Mr. Higgs: Is the Minister aware that there are 300,000 farmers in this country, and that 10 per cent. only have a supply of electricity; and does he not consider that this is a matter of desperate urgency?
  Major Lloyd George: I quite agree with my hon. Friend. I think it is one of the most important things to be done in this country, but my hon. Friend will agree that the present generating plant makes it a little difficult to carry out his suggestion.
  Mr. Higgsasked the Minister of Fuel and Power, what provision he is making to arrange to supply the necessary materials to cover the 3,000,000 kw. of new electricial plant that is to be installed before the winter of 1948.
  Major Lloyd George: The provision of the necessary labour and materials for carrying out the programme of generating plant promoted by the Central Electricity Board is receiving my active consideration. I cannot say when I shall be in a position to make a statement on this subject.
  Mr. Higgs: Is the Minister aware that the supply of electricity at the present moment is inadequate and that the position will be more difficult in 1947, and is he further aware that one third of the plant authorised now has not received the Government's sanction?
  Major Lloyd George: I fully appreciate the difficulty in which the electricity supply industry is working. I am sure my hon. Friend will agree that, in present circumstances, and until the war comes to an end, there is likely to be a certain shortage of raw materials and labour. We are, however, investigating at this moment the capacity and condition of all plants, and will do our best to get the utmost cooperation in the country.
  Mr. Chorltonasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether during the period of unusually high electricity demand, the oil-engined generating plants kept for service in case of a breakdown were actively employed to assist the main stations, and, if not, why not, as they must have had stores of oil fuel in reserve.
  Major Lloyd George: The principal purpose of the oil engine plants referred to by my hon. Friend is to provide a standby supply in case of breakdown of the public supply of electricity. I am advised that in some cases they can only meet partially the requirements of the consumer and there are serious technical difficulties in working these plants in conjunction with the public supply system. In view, however, of the unprecedented demand this winter, I have ordered a thorough investigation into the possibility of using these plants on future occasions when it may become necessary to shed load.

  COAL INDUSTRY

    Production (War Purposes)
    Mr. Rhys Daviesasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he can give an estimate of the proportion of coal produced in this country burnt for war purposes.
    Major Lloyd George: In view of the way this country is mobilised for war, it is arguable that almost all of the coal consumed is for war purposes.
    Mr. Davies: In view of the fact that so many people cannot get coal for their home consumption, would it not be as well for the right hon. Gentleman's Department to tell the people bluntly that they cannot have a war on a large scale like this and all the comforts of peace at the same time?
    Major Lloyd George: My hon. Friend's remarks would refer to most other commodities. I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's suggestion with regard to coal supply in this country.

    Open-Cast Mining (Equipment)
    Mr. A. Edwardsasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what increase in the output of coal is attributed to the secondhand machinery provided through Lend-Lease from the U.S.A.; and, in view of the fact that this machinery is not a cheap method of mining, what steps are being taken to hasten production by a more efficient method.
    Major Lloyd George: During the past year a quantity of equipment, some new and some partly used, has been put into operation to assist in the production of coal by open-cast methods, and I assume that this is the machinery to which my hon. Friend refers. It is impossible to say accurately what increase in output by open-cast milling can be attributed to its use but I am advised that 40 per cent. may be taken as an approximate figure. Some of this plant is specially adapted for the working of coal at lower depths which might otherwise be impracticable and a staff of expert American engineers is available to promote its most efficient use.
    Mr. Edwards: Is the Minister aware that the Office of War Production in Washington has stated that the increase in production is 12,000,000 tons, and that this is not at all an efficient method of producing coal?
    Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Is it not a fact that this machinery is mainly the responsibility of the Minister of Works, and that the Question ought to be addressed to him?

    Survey (Report)
    Mr. E. J. Williamsasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he has completed his survey of the British coalfields and proposes to make an early announcement of policy on prospective development, new sinkings, equipment and organisation of the mining industry.
    Major Lloyd George: The survey referred to is virtually completed, but, as I told my hon. Friend in reply to a Question on 31st October last, before making any statement I shall require to consider also the report of the Technical Advisory Committee. As I stated in reply to a question on 30th January by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Barkston Ash (Colonel Ropner), I expect to receive the last-mentioned report early next month.
    Mr. Shinwell: In this technical survey which the Minister has conducted recently, has he consulted the representatives of the Miners' Federation, or anybody on the workers' side, and, if not, why not?
    Major Lloyd George: In the survey in the Regions, both sides were represented.
    Mr. Shinwell: Do I understand from what the Minister is now saying that the Miners' Federation were represented on the technical committee?
    Major Lloyd George: No, Sir. I am saying, in regard to the first part of the Question, what was done in the Regions, where they were consulted. In regard to the second part of the Question, it is a technical committee only, and on the results of its investigation depends what shall next be done, and then, of course, everybody will be consulted.
    Mr. Shinwell: Does the Minister suggest that, on technical matters affecting the miners' industry and its organisation, the workers' side has no views to offer?
    Major Lloyd George: I do not suggest anything of the sort, and my hon. Friend knows I never would. I am talking about the lay-out of the mines of this country purely on a technical basis, and, for that purpose: I do not think my hon. Friend
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    will quarrel with me in taking the best engineering advice I can get in this country.
    Mr. A. Bevan: May I ask the Minister whether, when the report which my hon. Friend is asking for is available, he will make that report and the report of the American investigation available to us so that we may compare them and judge their respective merits?
    Major Lloyd George: With regard to our own report, I have already said that it will be published. With regard to the American report, the position is, as has been stated before, that the Government will not publish it,
    Mr. Bevan: Are we to have a statement in the House on why the Government do not propose to publish the American report, because that decision is giving rise to extraordinary suspicion?
    Major Lloyd George: My hon. Friend may remember that the Deputy Prime Minister, in a very long statement, explained why this report is not to be published, and if it is giving rise—as my hon. Friend suggests, though I do not agree with him—to widespread suspicion in people's minds, the best thing I can say to them is that they should wait to see the report of their own engineers, which will be extremely valuable.

  PETROL ALLOWANCES (EX-SERVICE MEN)
  Major Lord Willoughby de Eresbyasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether arrangements have now been made to enable members of His Majesty's forces returning home on seven days' leave to draw coupons for leave petrol prior to their return by post, or by sending an accredited representative to draw the coupons on their behalf so as to avoid wasting valuable days of leave.
  Major Lloyd George: I hope that, as the result of the discussions now proceeding with the Service Departments, it may be possible to introduce a scheme on these lines at an early date.
  Lord Willoughby de Eresby: Does the Minister not agree that a state of affairs in which a soldier returning from leave is met by his wife or father with his own car, already filled up with his leave

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  petrol, is what we should try to bring about, instead of the present state of affairs in the country districts, when it may take anything up to five days for a soldier to acquire his leave petrol?
  Major Lloyd George: The whole purpose of this scheme, which we are now trying to work out, is to avoid that kind of thing, but my Noble Friend will appreciate that every step must be taken to guard against abuse.

  NEWFOUNDLAND
  Mr. Beverley Baxterasked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs what progress has been made in carrying out the political education of the people of Newfoundland.
  The Under-Secretary of State far Dominion Affairs (Mr. Emrys-Evans): In present circumstances, it is felt that the political education of the people of Newfoundland can best be achieved by encouraging the development of local government. The Commission of Government have recently made a renewed effort to interest the people in the formation of local councils. Several new councils have recently been formed, the first to be set up in the Island outside the capital, and the two paper company towns of Grand Falls and Corner Brook, and the Commission have now appointed a local government officer whose duty it will be to maintain contact with lacol councils and, generally, to advise them and to encourage the formation of further bodies. Substantial financial assistance is available from Government funds to enable such bodies to find their feet. Apart from these activities within Newfoundland, steps have been taken to provide political education for Newfoundlanders serving in the Forces or in the Newfoundland Forestry Unit, and many lectures and talks on local and Parliamentary government procedure have been given with very satisfactory results. I should like to take this opportunity of thanking, on behalf of my noble Friend, the hon. Members who have so willingly contributed their time and experience to this end.
  Mr. Riley: May I ask whether there is any demand now coming from any section in Newfoundland for the restoration of self-government?
  Mr. Speaker: That is another question.
  Mr. Gallacher: Does the Under-Secretary suggest that the people of Newfoundland are a backward race, or incapable of looking after their own affairs? Is that the suggestion behind this idea of political education?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: No, Sir.
  Mr. Baxterasked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, what steps have been taken to ascertain the kind of government which is desired by the people of Newfoundland.
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement of policy which I made on behalf of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom on 2nd December, 1943, in which it was stated that, as soon as practicable after the end of the war in Europe, machinery would be provided for enabling the Newfoundland people to examine the future of the Island, and to express their considered views as to the form of government they desire, having regard to the financial and economic conditions prevailing at the time. His Majesty's Government are, at present, engaged in framing machinery for this purpose. Three members of the Commission of Government have visited this country for the purpose of consultation with my Noble Friend, and good progress has been made, though for reasons explained in this House on 30th January, His Majesty's Government are not yet in a position to announce their detailed proposals.
  Mr. Baxter: Does not my hon. Friend agree that Newfoundland has now been taxed without representation for 13 years, which is against all the pledges which we made and against the whole tradition of our race, and should not this country be treated on the same basis as small European States, which are entitled and, if necessary, required to accept self-government?
  Petty-Officer Alan Herbert: May I ask my hon. Friend whether, in view of the fact that the confidential report of Lord Ammon, the former Member for North Camberwell, has now been published in pamphlet form; and as the other members of the Parliamentary Commission do not agree with him by any means on all points, would it not now be fair and wise to permit the publication of the reports of the other two members?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: No, Sir, I do not think that I can give any assurance to my hon. and gallant Friend that the other reports will be published.
  Petty-Officer Herbert: Why not?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: Because, as I explained on previous occasions, these were private accounts given to my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council when he was Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs and they were not written with a view to publication.
  Sir Percy Harris: May I ask my hon. Friend whether the other two private reports are entitled to the same rights and privileges as the one which has already been published?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: No, Sir, that report has not been published. A pamphlet has been published by Lord Ammon but the report has not been published.
  Commander Sir Archibald Southby: May I ask my hon. Friend whether, if the other two members of the Commission publish their reports in pamphlet form, he will agree to the pamphlets being circulated?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: It is not a question for me to give any assurance with regard to pamphlets published by hon. Members, nor would I be required to circulate them.
  Petty-Officer Herbert: Is not the pamphlet to which I refer, almost word for word, identical with the report of Lord Ammon?
  Mr. Baxterasked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs how many millions of dollars have been loaned to this country by the Government of Newfoundland during the war, and at what rate of interest.
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: During the course of the war a total sum of 12,300,000 dollars has been loaned by Newfoundland to this country for the furtherance of the war effort. Of this figure, 10,500,000 dollars has been lent from surplus balances, whilst 1,800,000 dollars represents proceeds from the sale of War Savings Certificates. These loans have been made free of interest, and are subject to repayment as required.
  Mr. Baxter: Does the Minister agree, in principle, that if this country is unable to repay that loan to Newfoundland, then
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  Newfoundland will be entitled to close down our Parliament, and put in a provisional Government?
  Mr. A. Bevan: Is it not the fact that Newfoundland lost her self-governing status in the first place because she failed to repay loans to this country; and is it not rather extraordinary that she should now continue to lose it when she herself is lending money to us?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: I do not think that that gives a fair picture of the situation. It should be remembered that during the years in which His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom have been responsible for the Government of Newfoundland, they have paid as much as 16,000,000 dollars in grants-in-aid.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Imperial Economic Committee
    Mr. A. Edwardsasked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether, in view of the special problem created by the transition from war-time to peace-time economy, His Majesty's Government will suggest to the Dominion Governments the immediate re-establishment of the Imperial Economic. Committee to deal exclusively, till the end of the war in Europe, with the changed situation which has arisen during the war in the Dominions and to work out a plan for post-war Commonwealth prosperity.
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: Planning for postwar Commonwealth prosperity must necessarily take into account many wide problems which go far beyond the functions of the Imperial Economic Committee as at present constituted. His Majesty's Government have these problems under continuous examination in consultation with the other Commonwealth Governments, and, while these consultations are proceeding, it would be premature to consider what further inter-Commonwealth machinery may hereafter be required.
    Mr. Edwards: Is not the Minister aware that, unless people get together now, we shall reach the end of the war and disastrous conditions will be rife and the Government will have done nothing? They must take the initiative, and why not call this very appropriate committee together at the present time?
    Mr. Edgar Granville: In view of the fact that the decentralisation of industry is inevitable in the British Commonwealth, can the hon. Gentleman say whether there is any committee, on which commercial representatives of the Dominions are sitting, in London at the present time?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: No, Sir. I cannot say definitely, without notice. But these consultations are taking place, as I said in the course of my answer. The actual Committee to which my hon Friend refers has very strict terms of reference and it cannot consider a general economic policy.
    Mr. Shinwell: Can the hon. Gentleman state which Government Department is primarily responsible for conducting these economic conversations with the Dominion Governments, and, if they are being conducted at the present time, when are we likely to receive a report on the matter?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: I do not think that it will be possible to issue a report on these conversations at the present time.
    Mr. Shinwell: Which Department is responsible?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: Several Departments are concerned. The Board of Trade and the Dominions Office are both closely concerned in the matter.
    Mr. A. Edwards: Does not the Minister's reply mean that nothing is being done at the present time?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: No, Sir. If the hon. Member will read the answer, and also the very long answer I gave to him in detail on 2nd February, he will see that a great deal is being done.

    Combined Export Market Committee, Washington
    Mr. A. Edwardsasked the President of the Board of Trade if he has any statement to make regarding the operations of the Combined Export Market Committee in Washington.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Dalton): The Combined Export Markets Committee has not met since November, 1943. Exports from the United Kingdom and the United States of America are governed by combined arrangements only where the goods are scarce and such arrangements are necessary to ensure that the minimum essential requirements of other countries dependent
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    upon us are met, or where, on shipping grounds, it is necessary for us to agree upon the sources of supply.
    Mr. Edwards: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that this country's interests in post-war trade are being properly cared for?
    Mr. Dalton: Yes, Sir, certainly.

    Laundries (Liability for Losses)
    Mr. Martinasked the President of the Board of Trade whether in view of the extent to which losses in laundries have risen lately, he will take steps, if necessary by legislation, to raise the rates of compensation to customers.
    Mr. Dalton: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which was given on 30th January to my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg).

    Deaf Aid Batteries
    Mr. Spearmanasked the President of the Board of Trade why the supply of H.A.8. high-tension deaf aid batteries has fallen so far below the number promised; and if he will take steps to see that an adequate supply is maintained.
    Mr. Dalton: This shortage is due to the heavy demands made upon the manufacturers for batteries for the Armed Forces. But I am glad to say that I have been able to arrange with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply for a considerable increase in the production of these batteries to take effect this month.

    New Industries (Forest of Dean and Seaham)
    Mr. Priceasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the industrial situation likely to arise in the Forest of Dean in the post-war period, he is taking steps to encourage new industries to take up sites in that area.
    Mr. Dalton: During the war a considerable amount of new employment has been created in the Forest of Dean, and I hope that this will continue after the war. I am keeping a close watch on developments in this area.
    Mr. Shinwellasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has considered a request from the Seaham Urban District Council directing attention to the need for new industries in the Seaham area; and whether he is taking any action in the matter.
    Mr. Dalton: I have not yet received the communication to which my hon. Friend refers, but I shall be very glad to consider any representations which the council wish to make to me.
    Mr. Shinwell: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that at present they depend exclusively on the mining industry in that area and that it is very desirable, particularly because of the need for giving employment to female labour, to provide some new industry?
    Mr. Dalton: I have this matter very much in mind regarding the whole of the wide area of which my hon. Friend's constituency forms part, and I shall be glad if he will send me some suggestions at which I may look.

    Factory, Speke (Dunlop Rubber Co., Ltd.)
    Mr. Kirbyasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has any statement to make as to the future use of Messrs. Rootes' factory at Speke, Liverpool.
    Mr. Dalton: This factory has been leased to the Dunlop Rubber Co., Ltd., and this arrangement will, I believe, make an important contribution to post-war employment and prosperity on Merseyside.
    Mr. Kirby: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he appreciates that the corporation and citizens of Liverpool are very grateful to him for the part he has played in this matter?
    Sir Herbert Williams: Will the right hon. Gentleman ask Messrs. Dunlop to increase the supply of rubber teats, which is still very short?

    Repatriates (Furniture)
    Viscount Hinchingbrookeasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make provision to extend the utility furniture and household furnishings scheme to persons returning to this country from the Channel Islands and elsewhere, who are setting up house for the first time and who, due to the circumstances of their repatriation, have been unable to accumulate over a period articles of household equipment.
    Mr. Dalton: I shall be very glad to consider sympathetically any such applications.

  NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE BENEFITS
  Mr. Graham Whiteasked the Minister of National Insurance if it is intended to introduce legislation to make improvements in national health benefits to cover the period before the proposals of His Majesty's Government for national insurance become operative.
  The Minister of National Insurance (Sir William Jowitt): No such proposal is in contemplation.
  Mr. Graham White: Will my right hon. and learned Friend look a little further into this matter, having regard to the unfortunate impression caused when men, coming out of the Army, find themselves, when sick, quite dependent upon health allowance of 18s, without any dependants' allowances?
  Sir W. Jowitt: I am always looking into this matter.

  BRITISH ARMY

    Requisitioned Houses, Bournemouth
    Sir Leonard Lyleasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a number of houses in Bournemouth, which have been requisitioned by his Department, are no longer being used for military purposes; and whether he will expedite the derequisitioning of these houses so that they can be placed at the disposal of the people in the town who are without adequate housing accommodation.
    The Secretary of State for War (Sir James Grigg): The houses which are at present requisitioned by the War Department are needed for a future military commitment. They will, however, be released as soon as they can be spared.
    Sir L. Lyle: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the desperate need of many hundreds of ex-Servicemen in Bournemouth? Although he cannot supply houses, he can de-requisition empty houses. Is he further aware that one of my cases is that of an ex-Serviceman, with three children and a wife, who wants his own house de-requisitioned and, although it has been empty since D-Day, eight months ago, he cannot get it?
    Sir J. Grigg: I understand that these houses are held on account of the United

    21
    States Forces. I also understand that they are at the present moment reviewing their requirements, and I hope that the review will result in some amelioration of the position.
    Mr. De la Bère: Will my right hon. Friend also bear in mind the Evesham Division of Worcester?

    Vehicles (Chinese-American Ceremony, Wanting)
    Mr. John Dugdaleasked the Secretary of State for War whether any British vehicles were among those welcomed at the recent Chinese-American ceremony at Wanting.
    Sir J. Grigg: No, Sir.
    Mr. Dugdale: In view of the fact that these vehicles would not have been able to enter China at all had it not been for the gallantry of the 14th Army which made entry possible, would it not have been a nice gesture if some British vehicles could have been at the assembly point?
    Sir J. Grigg: Supplies to China are an American responsibility, and no doubt that is the reason.

    Prisoners of War (Army Act)
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Secretary of State for War in what number of cases returned "other ranks" prisoners of war have been required to satisfy the Army Act conditions that these men prove they are not guilty of desertion, or other offence in a similar category.
    Sir J. Grigg: My hon. Friend is misinformed about the position. No prisoner of war on repatriation is required to undergo inquiry as to the circumstances of his capture unless a report was made by his officer commanding unit, at the time of his capture, that he was taken prisoner of war under doubtful circumstances which require further investigation.
    Mr. MacMillan: Is it not still a part of the Army Act that "other ranks" taken prisoner are assumed, until they are cleared of the charge of having deserted, to be guilty, and could they not be exonerated from that charge?
    Sir J. Grigg: There is no stigma necessarily attached to them, and there is no discrimination in favour of the officer as against the soldier. No "other rank"
    22
    prisoner of war, on repatriation, is examined as to the circumstances of his capture unless his officer reports at the time of his capture that it took place under doubtful circumstances.
    Mr. MacMillan: While I accept this statement that in practice such is the case, is the Minister not aware that in theory this still remains in the Army Act, and that it is regarded as a piece of outmoded social snobbery?
    Sir J. Grigg: How can there be social snobbery when, in fact, there is no discrimination against the soldier?
    Mr. MacMillan: Is it not a fact that, in law, it is still in the Army Act? That is the point. Will the Minister cease using words which are not necessary?
    Sir J. Grigg: There is no discrimination, either in law or in fact, 'between the actual treatment of officers and other ranks; in fact, I would say that the position of officers in law is, naturally, more severe than that of other ranks.

    Arnhem Defenders (Punishment Drill)
    Mr. Dugdaleasked the Secretary of State for War the reason for which a large number of men who took part in the defence of Arnhem, and are now serving in a unit of which he has been informed, were given punishment drill on five consecutive nights recently.
    Sir J. Grigg: Inquiries are being made into this allegation.

    Captured German Tank (Inspection)
    Mr. Stokesasked the Secretary of State for War whether a Royal Tiger tank has yet reached this country; and whether he will arrange for Members of this House to inspect it.
    Sir J. Grigg: There is one of these tanks in the country. It is at present being closely examined by experts.
    Mr. Stokes: Will the Minister reply to the second half of my Question?
    Sir J. Grigg: I think the Prime Minister gave a reply bearing on that Question some months ago. In the meantime, I think it is very much more important that the experts should get on with studying the antidotes, or the best means of reducing any such efficiency as this machine possesses.
    Mr. Stokes: If the Minister will shelter behind the Prime Minister's skirts, does he recollect that in reply to a Question, the Prime Minister on 18th April last gave an implied promise that there would be a parade of all types of tanks used in the recent landings?
    Sir J. Grigg: That is precisely the answer to which I was referring. All I say in regard to this particular animal is that I think it is much more important, for the time being, that the antidote should be studied before the exhibition is arranged.
    Mr. Hammersley: Could my right hon. Friend explain what usefulness is served by this policy of not allowing the British public to be adequately informed about foreign tanks?
    Sir J. Grigg: There is no policy of that kind. The policy is that we do not give information to the public in this country at any time when it is likely to be of value to the enemy.
    Mr. R. J. Taylor: Can the Minister say whether the war is likely to be over before the experts have finished their examinations?
    Sir J. Grigg: I do not think so, even on the most optimistic assumption.
    Sir H. Williams: Is there any objection to hon. Members being permitted to go to the place where this tank is?
    Sir J. Grigg: I would be very unwilling to arrange for hon. Members to go at a time when the tank is being worked on, from the point of view of studying not only tactically, but mechanically, the best means of dealing with it.
    Mr. Stokes: May I ask the Secretary of State for War whether he does not think it is about time that both Members of this House and of the general public realise the appalling odds against which our men have been asked to fight?
    Sir J. Grigg: Those appalling odds exist only in the imagination of the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes).
    Mr. Stokes: Ask the soldiers.

    Private Soldier (Accident)
    Mr. Edgar Granvilleasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware of the accident on 17th November, 1944,
    24
    to Private R. Rumsby when a non-commissioned officer threw a bomb into an Army hut where Rumsby was seated, injuring him and making him unconscious for six hours before being taken to hospital; why Rumsby was sent on leave alone, carrying his own kit, on 1st January to Mellis, Suffolk, where he was found four miles from his home at 5.30 a.m. dazed and suffering from exposure; why his parents were not informed when he was transferred to another hospital or that he was being sent on leave; why Rumsby, who was permanently injured, has been ordered to report back to hospital; and whether an official inquiry will be held into the case.
    Sir J. Grigg: While there is at present no evidence whatever to support the allegations made in this Question, a court of inquiry is being held into the cause of the accident, and this may throw further light on the matter. The medical aspects of the case are also being further investigated.
    Mr. Granville: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that there is a full and impartial inquiry into the facts contained in this Question, which were supplied by the young soldier's father? Meanwhile, will the right hon. Gentleman see that this young soldier is given proper attention and attendance, to enable him to get back to his medical depot?
    Sir J. Grigg: As regards an impartial inquiry, it is almost an insult to ask that an inquiry should be impartial.
    Mr. Granville: No, it is not.
    Sir J. Grigg: As regards the reference to the facts, they are not yet established as facts. As regards the medical condition of this soldier, my information—which I do not say is fully established yet—is that a medical officer called at his house to find out what condition he was in and, on the last occasion, he was told that the man was out shooting rabbits.
    Mr. Granville: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the second part of my supplementary question: what arrangements have been made to get this young man back to his medical depot with proper medical attention?
    Sir J. Grigg: As I say, the man sent from his home a medical certificate saying he was unfit to go back to his unit. Three

    25
    attempts have been made to see the man at his home and on each occasion he was out—on the last occasion, as I say, shooting rabbits.
    Mr. Granville: In order to enable the right hon. Gentleman to get the relevant and serious facts about this shocking: case, I beg to give notice that I will raise it on the Adjournment at the first opportunity.
    Sir J. Grigg: May I point out—
    Mr. Speaker—
    Mr. Quintin Hogg: Only the Prime Minister can do that.

    Leave Ballots (Offenders)
    Mr. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for War to what extent soldiers serving abroad who have been awarded either field punishment or forfeiture of pay for any reason are further penalised by being excluded from the ballots for leave or, if drawn in the ballot, refused such leave and their qualifying period of service counted only from the conclusion of the period of penalty, and if this rule has been made retrospective to men who were awarded punishment prior to the leave ballot scheme being introduced.
    Sir J. Grigg: The Prime Minister made it clear that the leave scheme was intended for those who for a considerable length of time have borne the burden of campaigns overseas. The general directions issued to commanders-in-chief consequently made it clear that leave should be regarded as a reward for good service, weight being given to length of overseas service. I do not know how men who have undergone terms of field punishment, detention or penal servitude are being dealt with in every instance, but it would not be unreasonable to exclude those who have recently received these punishments. It is, however, unlikely that men who have only forfeited pay are being treated in this way.
    Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Are we to assume that when an ordinary, simple transgression is involved seven days' field punishment will be regarded as depriving a man of his title?
    Sir J. Grigg: As I have said, I do not know whether there is a rigid rule. All I say is that in recent cases like that, it seems to me quite natural that the people
    26
    who have rendered unfailingly good service should be preferred.
    Mr. Hynd: In view of the terms of the Minister's answer, and of his insistence on recent cases, if I provide him with particulars of cases where punishments were made retrospective for a considerable time before the order was issued, and also cases of trivial offences where only forfeiture of pay was concerned, will he have inquiries made?
    Sir J. Grigg: By all means, I will certainly look into them, although I am bound to say, as regards the former case, with an unsympathetic mind, because it seems to me that when there is only a limited amount of leave going it should be a reward for good service. Serious offences within the last six months should put a man back. As regards trivial offences, resulting in forfeiture of pay only, I would be happy to look into them with a much more open mind.

  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (MISSING AIRCRAFT, ITALY)
  Sir Hugh O'Neillasked the Prime Minister if he can now give any further details as to the circumstances of the aeroplane flight in Italy by the two honourable Members of this House who are still missing.
  The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): I have been asked to reply. As the House knows, the hon. and gallant Member for North Bristol (Captain Bernays) and the hon. Gentleman the junior Member for Antrim (Mr. D. Campbell) were, in company with other hon. Members, on a visit to our Forces in Italy. The two hon. Members took off on the morning of 23rd January on a flight from Rome to Brindisi. They were in an "Expeditor" aircraft which was flown by an experienced R.A.F. pilot. The other hon. Members in the party left Rome in another "Expeditor" aircraft three minutes later. The second aircraft encountered a severe snow storm; the pilot decided against attempting to fly through it and he made a precautionary landing at Bari. Nothing has been- heard of the first aircraft since it took off.
  An extensive search has now been carried out over all the land routes and out to sea along the stretches of coast over

  27
  which the missing aircraft might have flown. I very much regret that the search has been unfruitful. The accident has been investigated by a court of inquiry. The proceedings are being sent home and I expect to receive them shortly. Meanwhile, the House will wish to join with me in expressing again our deep sympathy with the relatives of the two hon. Members, and of the other occupants of the aircraft.
  Sir H. O'Neill: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that this machine was supplied with adequate radio installation? Was any radio message received from the machine before it was lost?
  Sir A. Sinclair: I hope my right hon. Friend will not press for any answers on points of detail until the report of the proceedings of the court of inquiry has been thoroughly and carefully studied. Broadly speaking, however, it is true that the aircraft certainly was supplied with radio telephonic equipment.
  Sir H. O'Neill: Will this House have an opportunity of seeing the report of the court of inquiry?
  Sir A. Sinclair: No, Sir, that is contrary to all precedent and public policy. There is a question on the Order Paper for tomorrow about this matter.
  Wing-Commander Grant-Ferris: Will the Minister satisfy himself that there was, in fact, two-way wireless equipment in this aircraft?
  Sir A. Sinclair: That is certainly a point which will come out in the proceedings of the inquiry.
  Mr. Edgar Granville: In view of the fact that these flights are going on all the time, has my right hon. Friend assured himself that aircraft of this type, the "Expeditor," a two-engined machine, are able to deal with the winter storms and the kinds of weather met with in that part of the world?
  Sir A. Sinclair: Most decidedly. The "Expeditor" is widely used now, both by the U.S. Army Air Force and by the Royal Air Force, and is regarded as a most satisfactory communications aircraft.
  Mr. Stokes: Was this aircraft equipped with de-icing apparatus?
  Sir A. Sinclair: I said I cannot answer these questions. I should have thought that it was extremely doubtful, as this was not the kind of aircraft which would be so equipped.
  Commander Locker-Lampson: Were the conditions such as not to warrant the plane starting?
  Sir A. Sinclair: That is a question on which I must await the report of the inquiry.
  Mr. Gallacher: In view of the concern felt in the country about this and other accidents, would not the Minister arrange for a special inquiry to be made and a statement issued which will reassuro everybody?
  Sir A. Sinclair: No, Sir. I am very glad to see that my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) is raising this question on broad lines in the House this week when I shall be able to satisfy the House that there is no ground at all for the perturbation which my hon. Friend opposite has expressed. Let me say, quite clearly, that every accident which occurs in the R.A.F. is inquired into, and that a prompt inquiry was held about this accident.
  Sir H. O'Neill: Surely the House of Commons is entitled to know something about the details of an accident in which two Members of this House were lost when they were proceeding mare or less on public duty?
  Sir A. Sinclair: Most certainly, but I should be grateful if Members would not press me for details, until I have had an opportunity of studying the report of the court of inquiry.

  HOUSES, SELLING PRICE (COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY)
  Mr. Harry Thorneycroftasked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to announce the Government's policy on the question of controlling or regulating the price at which dwelling-houses may be sold.
  The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): Yes, Sir. My right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Health and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, are appointing a

  29
  Committee, with the following terms of reference:
  "To consider, and report, whether it is practicable to control effectively the selling price of houses with, or without, vacant possession and to prevent undue financial advantage being taken of the present housing shortage; and, if so, what measures should be adopted to effect these objects."
  The membership of the Committee will be announced shortly.
  Mr. Thorneyeroft: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether it will be permissible for Members to submit, as evidence, letters received from victims of this scandalous racket?
  Mr. Attlee: I think so, certainly.
  Mr. Bowles: In view of the delay that is bound to take place before the recommendations of the Committee can be submitted to the Government, would my right hon. Friend also ask the Committee to make recommendations about retrospective action?
  Mr. Attlee: That is a matter for consideration.

  LIBERATED TERRITORIES (TRANSPORT)
  Captain Bullockasked the Prime Minister if he can make a detailed statement as to what Great Britain has done to help France in her transport problems since the liberation; and what help it is proposed to give in the near future.
  Mr. Attlee: I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend to await the statement which my right hon. Friend the Minister of State will make to-morrow at the end of Questions.
  Earl Winterton: Will this include the whole question of the provisioning of France through Allied sources?
  Mr. Attlee: I am asking my right hon. Friend to make a comprehensive statement on the points raised by the Noble Lord and other Members.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Old Age Pensioners (Post-war Credits)
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any decision has been made regarding the repayment
    30
    of post-war credits to old age pensioners and others who cease to be liable to Income Tax through retirement, sickness, etc.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Anderson): I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave to a similar Question by the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Cape) on 9th November, of which I am sending him a copy. [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 404, C. 1551.]
    Mr. Woodburn: As my recollection is that no arrangements have been made for repayment and that some old age pensioners are under the impression that they are to be paid, would not my right hon. Friend make the position clear?
    Sir J. Anderson: In the reply I referred to, it was made clear that it was the essence of the scheme that post-war credits repayment should not be made until after the war, and that it is not practicable to make exceptions.

    Income Tax ("Pay as you Earn" System)
    Mr. Tinkerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is in a position to state how the first period of the "Pay as you earn" Income Tax has worked; and whether the assessment forms now being sent out could be drafted to give more details of what has been deducted and the balance due either way.
    Sir J. Anderson: The first year of "Pay as you earn" does not end until 5th April next, but I am glad to be able to say that, in general, the scheme is working smoothly. I assume that the second part of the Question refers to the statements showing the employee's tax position at the end of the year 1943–44, after taking account of the tax cancelled for that year and the amount provisionally deducted in the months before "Pay-as-you-earn" began. The statements contain a considerable amount of detail, but any employee who desires further information or explanation should approach the Tax Office.
    Mr. Tinker: Will the right hon. Gentleman take suggestions from Members of Parliament who think that an improvement should be made in the statements that are sent out?
    Sir J. Anderson: Certainly.

    Wages and Prices
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in view of the fact that since 1939 wages have increased 45 per cent, and the index for all commodities has risen 61.8 per cent., he can state approximately, in any convenient form, the extent to which the rise in wages has benefited the recipients in terms of real value.
    Sir J. Anderson: I am not sure to what commodity index my hon. Friend is referring, but if, as I assume, his figure is derived from the Board of Trade index of wholesale prices, I do not think it would be right to frame any estimate of the real value of wage-rates on the basis of an index of wholesale prices.
    Sir W. Smithers: Will my right hon. Friend take an early opportunity to warn the public that, unless there is adequate production and the rendering of services at the right price behind the currency, the purchasing power of the currency may continue to fall?
    Sir J. Anderson: I do not think that that is a subject with which I could deal sufficiently at Question Time.

  FRENCH NATIONALS' ASSETS (INFORMATION)
  Sir John Mellorasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will give an assurance that the information to be furnished to the French Government, with regard to assets of French nationals, will not include particulars of individual accounts supplied to His Majesty's Government by bankers under compulsion of Trading with the Enemy legislation.
  Mr. Pickthornasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) if he will particularise the provisions of the Trading with the Enemy legislation under which information relating to the assets of French nationals has been furnished to His Majesty's Government and which authorise the transmission of that information to the French Government;
  (2) whether he consulted the Bank of England or the joint stock banks before reaching the definite conclusion that he would supply to the French Government information relating to the assets of French nationals furnished to His Majesty's Government under Trading with the Enemy legislation.
  Mr. Petherickasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer under what section of what Act he proposes to give the French Government information regarding assets of French nationals held in the United Kingdom or British Colonies.
  Captain Duncanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his recent agreement with the French Finance Minister included the disclosure by both Governments to each other of the holdings of individuals of one country in the country of the other, or merely the global totals of francs and sterling so held.
  Sir J. Anderson: With the permission of hon. Members I will answer Question 52 together with Nos. 57, 59, 61 and 64.
  Mr. Pickthorn: On a point of Order. I have never quite understoood this preamble by Ministers asking the permission of hon. Members to answer several Questions together, and I should like to have your guidance, Sir. I submit that, on this occasion, these five Questions may, quite properly, be reduced to three, two pairs of them being roughly identical, but the attempt to answer more than that together, in one piece, really deprives hon. Members of part of their rights.
  Mr. Speaker: I do not think there is anything in the point of Order. It is common custom and, after all, I note the names of those who have put down Questions and I always give them a chance of asking supplementaries. I think this is the best way as it saves giving the same kind of answer to similar Questions several times.
  Sir J. Anderson: In proposing to answer the five Questions together, I had in mind that they all related to parts of a subject which, in my judgment, ought to be dealt with as a whole.
  Under the provisions of the Trading with the Enemy Act, of the Trading with the Enemy (Custodian) Order, 1939, in particular Articles 1 to 5 of that Order, the property of persons resident in France has since 1940 been held subject to the terms of the Custodian of Enemy Property Order, all debts have been payable to him and all bank balances payable to his account. The practical arrangements made in the last-named instance are equivalent in law to actual payment of the balances to the Custodian's account. Similar circumstances affect British property in

  33
  France, though British property there has been controlled by authorities set up under German influence and the exact position of the various types of property is not yet known. Negotiations are in progress to secure the release of both French and United Kingdom property from these controls and the arrangements will involve the reciprocal exchange of information regarding the holdings of individuals. This will be an exchange of information lawfully and properly in the hands of the Government. It is an executive act of the Government not requiring legislative authority, taken in the course of its relations with the Government of an Allied Power, for which I accept full responsibility. The circumstances are purely war-time circumstances and the action proposed has no bearing upon Government policy affecting the maintenance of private relations of confidentiality in peace-time.
  Sir J. Mellor: Whatever may be the merits of these disclosures, are they not right outside the purpose for which Parliament granted powers to the Treasury to obtain this information?
  Sir J. Anderson: I suppose that Parliament granted power to the authorities to obtain the information in order that the properties in question should be dealt with, in due course, in an orderly manner, and so as to safeguard the national interest. I am well aware of the importance that is attached to the confidential relations between a banker and his clients, and I am perfectly prepared to do everything in my power to preserve that principle. I am quite clear, however, that, in relation to an Allied State in the position of France at this moment, I could not possibly have considered withholding information which would be of value to that country in its endeavour to recover, as speedily as possible, from the consequences of German occupation, and which is in my possession by whatever means, without regard at all to the principles governing the relation between bankers and their clients.
  Mr. Pickthorn: Does the last sentence of the answer mean that my right hon. Friend could not consider withholding similar facilities from the Governments of Belgium, Holland, Poland and Yugoslavia? Has there been any consultation with the United States and Swiss Governments?
  Sir J. Anderson: The case of other Governments will be dealt with if and when it arises. On the question of consultation, I felt clear that this was a matter which should be dealt with on my responsibility, and I so dealt with it.
  Mr. Petherick: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the reason he has given to-day is not the reason that he gave a short time ago when first announcing this proposal, and is he not going very far in stating that he parted with private information, gained apparently under an Act of Parliament, without consultation with this House and on executive action?
  Sir J. Anderson: I am prepared to accept that challenge. The Regulation has the force of law and, as the result of the working of that Regulation, the Government are in possession of the information in question, which is of great interest and importance to the French Government. There is no provision in the law limiting the right of the Government to deal with such information as they think best in the general interest.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Is not the object of this policy to segregate the finances of Britain and France, and, if so, is not that policy entirely misdirected?
  Sir J. Anderson: I do not quite understand the implications of the question. The policy, as far as I am concerned, is to help the Government of France to deal with an extremely difficult question which it is in our interest should be dealt with as soon as possible.
  Mr. Pickthorn: Has my right hon. Friend had a full search made of the Parliamentary Debates behind these powers, to make sure that there was no Ministerial assurance that the information should not be used for purposes other than those for which its gathering was authorised?
  Sir J. Anderson: I should be very greatly surprised if a search revealed anything of the kind.
  Mr. Pickthorn: That was not my question.
  Sir J. Mellor: Are the United States Government taking similar action with the French Government?
  Sir J. Anderson: I could not say. I am responsible for the actions of this Government.
  Mr. Pickthorn: I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

  UNIVERSITY GRANTS (GOVERNMENT PROPOSALS)
  The following Questions stood upon the Order Paper:
  56. "Mr. SALT,—To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the provision to be made to meet the post-war requirements of the universities."
  65. "Sir ERNEST GRAHAM-LITTLE,—To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the provision to be made to meet the post-war requirements of the universities."
  At the end of Questions—
  Sir J. Anderson: I will, with permission, make a statement in answer to Questions 56 and 65 with regard to the provision to be made for meeting the post-war requirements of the universities.
  I have carefully considered a report made to me by the University Grants Committee on the probable financial needs of the universities in Great Britain during the first decade after the war, and I have also had the advantage of hearing the views of a deputation of representatives of the universities and university colleges. It is clear that if the universities are to play the part which they should in the reconstruction of our national life after the war, they will have to incur expenditure on a very much higher scale than before the war. It is also clear that if the future financial needs of the universities are to be met, a large share of this new expenditure will have to be met by the Exchequer.
  As regards recurrent expenditure, it is not easy to forecast with any accuracy what will be the actual expenditure of the universities during the transitional period between war and peace. Both the University Grants Committee and the universities themselves have emphasised the importance of not sacrificing quality to quantity, and it follows that in the immediate future the supply of adequately qualified staff will be a limiting factor on development. The increased expenditure to be incurred by the universities will not
  36
  therefore be spread equally over the ten years period of the Committee's review. It will be heavier during the later than the earlier years of the decade, and the Government recognise that the grant to universities during those later years will need to be further and substantially increased above the level now proposed for the next two years. The University Grants Committee have recommended that the present annual vote for the universities of £2,149,000 should be increased, for each of the next two financial years, by the addition of £2,000,000 for general university purposes, £1,000,000 for developments in the medical schools arising out of the recommendations of the Inter-Departmental Committee on Medical Schools and £500,000 for grants for teaching hospitals as recommended by that Committee. The Government have decided to accept the recommendations of the University Grants Committee for the two years in question. The question of the grant for future years will need to be reviewed at the end of the two years.
  As regards expenditure for capital purposes, the needs of the universities have in the past been met for the most part by private benefactions. I am advised by the University Grants Committee and the universities that this source of support cannot be expected to meet the needs of the universities for capital developments in the years following the war, and that if the building programmes of the universities are to be carried out, a large share of the cost will have to be met from the Exchequer. The University Grants Committee have estimated that the universities will need to expend about £18,750,000 calculated at pre-war prices on capital developments during the decade and the Inter-Departmental Committee on Medical Schools estimate that an additional sum of £10,000,000 (also at pre-war prices) will be required for developments in the medical schools. The Government accept these estimates as indications of the probable scale of necessary capital developments, and they recognise that a very substantial proportion of the money will have to be provided from the Exchequer.
  In view of the restrictions on building which are likely to operate during the years immediately following the war, it seems unlikely that the universities will have opportunities for any considerable capital expenditure during the next year

  37
  or two. In the circumstances it seems to me that it will be sufficient to include in the Estimates for the coming year a token sum of £250,000 for distribution by the University Grants Committee, without prejudice to what may be necessary in later years.
  Accordingly, I am including in the 1945 Estimates £5,900,000 as a grant in aid of universities, colleges, medical schools, and teaching hospitals (Great Britain). It should not be assumed, however, that this amount will need to be distributed in grant within the financial year. This matter will be within the discretion of the University Grants Committee who will review the position from time to time in the light of developments and may elect to retain part of the provision in the deposit account into which the grant in aid will, as usual, be paid. Any amount so retained will not in any case be liable to surrender to the Exchequer at the end of the year, but will remain available for distribution in the future.
  Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that, in spite of the vital importance of the freedom of the universities, some pressure may be necessary as there is likely to be a greatly increased demand for university training immediately after the war; and that the promises made by the Minister of Labour to ex-Service men cannot be implemented unless concrete plans are quickly prepared, even for improvised accommodation, as Leeds and Manchester have already done? Could my right hon. Friend ensure that if the £250,000 is not sufficient a further sum will be available?
  Sir J. Anderson: I know, having been in personal touch with the vice-chancellors, that the universities are giving serious consideration to the demands likely to be made upon them. In the event of the £250,000 to which I have referred, and which is really not much more than a token sum, proving insufficient, the possibility of its being increased within the financial year will certainly not be ruled out.
  Mr. Salt: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the increased grant will enable British universities to provide the greatly increased number of science and technology graduates, who are essential to ensure the efficiency and prosperity of the country in the post-war world, and, if so,
  38
  is he aware that his answer will give great satisfaction to the members of the Parliamentary Scientific Committee?
  Sir J. Anderson: The development of scientific teaching has been very much in the minds of the University Grants Committee in making their recommendations.
  Sir Joseph Lamb: Do the medical schools to which my right hon. Friend referred include veterinary colleges?
  Sir J. Anderson: I would like notice of that question.
  Mr. John Dugdale: If the universities have to purchase any land for their extensions will they be able to acquire it at 1939 prices, or will they have to pay much inflated prices?
  Sir J. Anderson: That question does not arise out of my statement.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: Is the grant of £2,000,000 for general university purposes considered to include any allowance for the subsistence or tutorial fees of students who may have had their university courses broken by the war, or will there be a separate grant for that purpose?
  Sir J. Anderson: This is a grant towards expenses falling on the universities. It has nothing at all to do with any assistance that may be provided to students.
  Mr. Edmund Harvey: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his reply, which will give great satisfaction in the universities, may I ask whether his Estimates for the forthcoming year will permit of increased scales of salaries to the existing staffs, many of whom are seriously underpaid?
  Sir J. Anderson: That question also, to my knowledge, has been taken into account.
  Dr. Edith Summerskill: What period of grace does the right hon. Gentleman propose to give those medical schools which now admit only men, to allow them to make arrangements for the admission of women before he withholds grants in those cases where they refuse to do that?
  Sir J. Anderson: I am glad to say that that particular question has not so far come within my jurisdiction.
  Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: In the distribution of the money, will the right hon.

  39
  Gentleman bear in mind the much higher proportion of university students in relation to population in Scotland?
  Sir J. Anderson: I am always alive to the interests of Scotland.

  AIR SERVICES (SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1944)
  Estimate presented,—of the further Sum required to be voted for Air Services for the year ending on 3rst day of March, 1945 [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 34.]
  AIR ESTIMATES, 1945
  Estimates presented,—for the financial year 1945 [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 35.]
  CIVIL ESTIMATES (SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1944)
  Estimates presented,—of further Sums required to be voted for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1945 [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 36.]
CIVIL AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS (ESTIMATES, 1945)
Estimates presented,—for Civil and Revenue Departments for the year ending on 31st March, 1946, with Memorandum [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 37.]
CIVIL AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, 1945 (VOTE ON ACCOUNT)
Estimate presented,—showing the several Services for which a Vote on Account is required for the year ending on 31st March, 1946 [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 38.]
BILL PRESENTED
  MINISTRY OF FUEL AND POWER BILL
  "to make further provision with respect to the appointment and functions of the Minister of Fuel and Power, and for purposes connected therewith"; presented by Major Lloyd George, supported by the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Bevin, Mr. T. Johnston, the Attorney-General, Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd and Mr. Tom Smith; to be read a Second time upon Thursday, and to be printed.—[Bill 25.]
  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Proceedings on Government Business exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), for One hour and a half after Six o'Clock.— [Mr. Attlee.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  REQUISITIONED LAND AND WAR WORKS BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  12.16 p.m.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Anderson): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  I realise very well that the publication of this Bill has caused a certain amount of concern, and even disquiet, among my hon. Friends in this House. I think such an attitude is to a considerable extent based upon misunderstanding, which is very intelligible, I am bound to confess, having regard to the complicated nature of the Bill, to its very technical character, and to the fact, which I freely admit, that it would be very difficult for anyone on reading the Bill through to gain a clear picture of the manner in which it was going to be worked. But I am not here to apologise. I do not share the view that this is a bad Bill. On the contrary, I think, and I hope to be able to persuade the House, that it is a very good Bill. It is certainly the result of very prolonged consideration and consultation among all the Ministers—and they are many, many more even than those named on the back of the Bill—who are concerned. I think

  65
  it is wisely conceived and skilfully drafted, and that it will be found that those responsible for framing the Bill have been remarkably successful in reconciling the public purposes which make the introduction of the Bill necessary with all those varied interests—interests of amenity, of agriculture, of planning, of private ownership—which we ought to be vigilant to protect.
  I think it will best suit the occasion if I devote myself, in this introductory speech, mainly to the general structure and the broad purposes of the Bill, leaving to a later stage the many details that arc embodied in its numerous Clauses. I want first to try to convince the House, if indeed the House needs convincing on the point, that a Bill of this kind is really necessary. Then I want, and this may perhaps be more difficult, to persuade the House that the approach to the problem in this Bill is a reasonable one. Finally, I want to establish my contention 'that all the interests involved will have due consideration in the working of the Bill.
  As to the background of the Bill, all hon. Members, 1 am sure, know that under the stress of war, and particularly in the early days of the war,, extensive works were carried out at the public expense on requisitioned land or on land which remained in the possession of its private owner. Those works included factories, airfields, camps, hostels, defence works of all kinds, and so forth. The expenditure involved in the works which are within the scope of this Bill amounts, although I cannot give a very precise estimate, to something probably of the order of £700,000,000, of which probably about £60,000,000 represents the cost of factories alone. Much of that heavy expenditure must, I fear, be- regarded as having served its purpose when the war comes to an end and will prove to be irrecoverable, Nevertheless, a not inconsiderable part of the expenditure is represented by valuable material assets, valuable either for use or for disposal.
  I invite hon. Members to ask themselves what the position would Abe in regard to all those works if we had no Bill, if we left the existing law to take its course. The position can be very simply stated. It is this: The land, with the buildings and works on it, subject to such reinstatement or adjustments as might be
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  practicable, would have to be handed back to the private owner with, so far as reinstatement had not been carried out, compensation for damage. In the case of requisitioned land the compensation for damage would be limited only by the value of the land at the time of requisition. In the case of works carried out on land not requisitioned, but which remained in private ownership under Defence Regulation 50, the statutory limit of compensation which may be paid is the amount by which the land has depreciated in value as the result of the work done on it. As I say, the land with the works on it would have to be handed back with compensation for damage, and there would be no assurance at all that the sums paid in compensation, which might be very large sums, would in fact be used to restore the land, to remove eye-sores or whatever it might be.
  That is the position as the law stands. Moreover, the Government would have no right to keep, subject to an exception to which I will refer in a moment, any of the works which had been provided at the taxpayers' expense, nor would they be entitled to claim a single penny from the owner of the land, to whom the works would revert, in respect of their value. The one exception is the case of works required for defence where, under the existing Defence Acts, the Government would have the power, as the law stands, to acquire the land; but in that case, under the existing law, the Government would have to pay compensation to the owner of the land not merely for the land as it was when the Government entered upon it arid started erecting the works, but for the land with the works—the factory, the airfield, the hostels, the houses, whatever it might be—on the land. The Government would, as the law stands, have to pay the owner for the work that had been carried out on the land, so far as it had a value, at the public expense. In view of what I have said I do not think that any hon. Member in any quarter of the House will question the need for legislation of some kind.
  That is the first point, and the easiest, that I have to make. As to the approach which the Bill makes to an admittedly difficult problem, let me say in the first place that I have no doubt whatever that in the case of the vast majority of the works that have been carried out on re-

  67
  quisitioned land the land will, in fact, be returned to the owner, and it will be the policy of the Government to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, in one way or another—and I will deal with this point in detail later—that any works which are unsightly and a disfigurement are removed when the land reverts. I referred a moment ago to the case of works needed for defence. These defence works will not be acquired under this Bill. In so far as they have to be acquired on the land on which they have been constructed they will be acquired under the ordinary law—under the Defence Acts, going back to 1842 but kept up-to-date by a series of amendments the last of which passed in, I think, 1935. The only difference this Bill makes so far as defence works are concerned—and they are a very important category of works—is that the basis of compensation to which I have referred will be altered.
  Colonel Sir A. Lambert-Ward (Kingston-upon-Hull, North-West): Will the right hon. Gentleman explain exactly what is meant by defence works as opposed to other works?
  Sir J. Anderson: I wish I could explain exactly what is meant by "defence work." In the event of dispute that would be a matter for the courts, but I do not believe that, in practice, very much difficulty has arisen. Land has been acquired under the Defence Acts right back to the year 1842 and I do not think that there has been serious difficulty. The ordinary works that are acquired by the Defence Departments for the discharge of their responsibilities are, I am sure, defence works. On the other hand there may be some borderline cases, and there are other cases of works which may have been provided by the Defence Departments during the war which are not going to be required in the future for defence purposes but which may be needed for other purposes, and those, if they are to be acquired, will he acquired under this Bill.
  As I was saying, the only material respect in which this Bill affects the position as regards defence works is in the matter of compensation; under the Bill compensation will be assessed by reference to the state of the land at the time when the Government entered upon it to carry out the work and will not include anything either by way of addition or by way of
  68
  reduction in respect of the works carried out by the Government at the public expense.
  As regards the works other than defence works, which are the main subject of this Bill, three categories are specified in Clause 5. There is the case in which the Government may wish to acquire the it lid in order that it may have for its own purposes the continued use of the works that have been carried out on the land. A clear example is the case of an airfield which is not required for a defence purpose, but may be required for the purpose of civil aviation. Another case is that of a hospital, which may be a well-equipped establishment which it will be desired to make available for the use of the civil authorities. Many other instances will occur to hon. Members, such as hostels, day nurseries, and so on. That is the first category. It actually appears third in the Clause. It is in Clause 5 (1 c).
  The next category is that of works which the Government do not expect to require to use after the war for their own purposes, but the use of which they think it essential that they should be able to control. One simple illustration is the case of the deep shelters that have been provided in connection with the underground railway system, and the use of those, obviously, must be controlled. They have been constructed on land which is not the property of the Government. Another very good case is that of a factory not likely to be required after the war for Government purposes, but which has a definite war potential, the use of which the Government will wish to control. The third category, and perhaps the most important from the point of view of hon. Members, in the case where the ground for desiring to acquire the property is to turn to account, so far as is practicable, the expenditure, which has been incurred at the expense of the taxpayer, on the land. Those are the three separate cases which are recognised in the Bill. The Bill also provides, in Clause 6, for the acquisition of land which has depreciated in value as the result of the work carried out on the land. I mention this only in passing at the moment. I will refer to the point a little later.
  This brings me to the important question of the powers and the constitution of the Commission, for which provision is made in Clause 1. The right of reference

  69
  to the Commission in the cases where that is provided for, does, in the view of the Government, in fact represent a most important safeguard for the interests that may be affected by action taken under the Bill. The position as regards reference to the Commission can be stated quite briefly thus: works required for defence are outside the operation of the Bill; in the case of all other works, with one exception dealt with in Clause 8 (5), which is so important that I must deal with it separately, there has to be reference to the Commission if objection is made, after due notice, to what the Government propose to do. Where the purpose of acquiring the land is the third purpose to which I have referred, to save money, or where the land is being acquired under Clause 6 because it has depreciated in value, and in every case, irrespective of the purpose of the Government in acquiring the land, where the land in question comprises a dwelling-house, the finding of the Commission is to be final.
  The cases where it is not to be final, are cases where the Government wish to acquire the land, not being land in which a dwelling house is concerned, either for their own use, or in order that they may control its use. In those cases, there is a right of reference to the Commission and to a proper hearing. But power is taken by express provision of the Bill, to the Government, to over-rule the findings of the Commission in those cases. That may seem to hon. Members, at first sight, to represent a very substantial weakening of the important safeguard which the existence of the Commission provides. Let us look at the question, and see how far the safeguards of the Bill are, in fact, weakened. The cases in which the decision of the Commission is not to be final, will all be cases in which Government policy is involved. They will all be cases in which the Government propose either to use the works for public purposes or to control the use of the works in the public interest.—[An HON. MEMBER: "Or to sell them?"] No. In those cases where the purpose is to recover the cost, the decision of the Commission is to be final.—Where public policy is involved, is it really desirable that final control should be handed over absolutely to an independent Commission? I put that question to the House. I venture, with very great respect, to think that it is not. I sincerely hope and indeed expect
  70
  that the number of cases in which the Government will find it necessary to disagree with the Commission will be very few.
  Let me illustrate the argument I am going to put to the House by a simple case. Suppose, and it is not an extravagant assumption, that the Government have a scheme for the development of civil aviation, involving aerodromes at suitable places up and down the country. Each of those cases—and every case has to be dealt with individually under the Bill on its merits—can be referred to the Commission, and objection can be taken on a variety of grounds. I will come to this point later. The Commission might be swayed by argument, and decide against the acquisition of a particular aerodrome. If their decision is final, the consequences may be very serious. From the point of view of any Commission dealing with a matter of this kind where Government policy is involved, I suggest that it is not quite fair to throw the final responsibility on the Commission. Let the Government take it, and let there be Parliamentary safeguards. Let Parliament have the last word. After all, the consideration, inquiry and investigation by the Commission will have taken place, and Parliament will have the advantage of having before it the report of the Commission as well as the Government's reasons for disagreeing with the report, since these have to be submitted to Parliament.
  Mr. Turton (Thirsk and Mahon): Would my right hon. Friend allow me?
  Sir J. Anderson: I would ask my hon. Friend to wait a moment. It may be said, "That is all very well, but what is the good of providing that the report of the Commission should be published and that the Government shall state their reasons for disagreeing, if the matter ends there?" If hon. Members take the view that some further safeguard is necessary, I am perfectly prepared—I speak on behalf of the Government—to say that we will agree to an amendment of the Bill to make it impossible for the Government to act in conflict with the view of the Commission if a Prayer is moved against such action. I think that would be a very valuable additional safeguard. I am not reluctant to provide safeguards. I am anxious to provide all reasonable safeguards in a matter of this kind.
  Mr. Turton: Would my right hon. Friend explain to the House exactly how airfields come under the Bill, when they are already covered by the Air Navigation Acts and, I understood, were removed from the scope of the Bill?
  Sir J. Anderson: They are not removed from the Bill. There are reasons why they should not be removed from the Bill. The powers of the Air Navigation Acts, as will be shown when we come to committee on the Bill, are not adequate for the acquisition of airfields in' the circumstances I have been describing.
  Earl Winterton: May I call the attention of my right hon. Friend to a statement which he has just made in a form in which I do not think he wished to make it? He said that he would be ready to make it impossible for the Government to act in conflict with the view of the Commission if a Prayer had been moved. I imagine he meant to say "until the Prayer had been disposed of."
  Sir J. Anderson: I meant, of course, if a Prayer had been moved and carried.
  Earl Wintertan: It is a very important point.
  Sir J. Anderson: Of course, I did not mean it as my noble Friend puts it. What I meant was that when a Motion is put down, obviously until it has been disposed of—it is exempted Business, as my noble Friend knows—the Government are estopped from acting, and the House then has the last word. I am very much obliged to my noble Friend.
  I have dealt with the powers of the Commission, and I have explained just how the Commission should operate to safeguard the interests that may be affected. May I now say a word about the standing of the Commission? It is contemplated in the Bill that the Commission should be appointed by the Treasury. I have seen suggestions rather reflecting upon the status of any body which has the misfortune to be appointed by the Treasury. I need hardly tell the House that I do not entirely agree with such views. I think that the Treasury, in the circumstances, is the appropriate body. What do we want? We want a body of people of high standing, not all lawyers, although I hope the legal element will be well represented—[An HON. MEM-
  72
  BER: "Why?"]—because I think it necessary that the body should hear evidence, and should proceed at certain stages of its work in a strictly judicial manner. There would be great advantage in haying a carefully chosen lawyer in a prominent position on the Commission. We want a body of men who will command confidence, and whose experience and standing are such that the public are willing to believe that they will be competent to weigh all the considerations that ought to be taken into account before a decision is taken.
  The fact that the Commission will be appointed by the Treasury, will not mean that it will be in any way subservient to the Treasury when it has been appointed. It will be an independent body having a statutory duty to discharge. I, personally, see no disadvantage, but a considerable advantage in having that body appointed by the Treasury. I should hope, if the Bill is read a second time, that before we come to Committee on the particular Clause affecting the Commission I might be able to indicate who is likely to be the first chairman of the Commission. I do not think it would be proper to say anything more specific at this stage.
  Having dealt with the Commission from the point of view of the safeguards it provides and with the status of the Commission itself, I would like to pass to a closer consideration of the provision which the Bill makes for safeguarding the various interests that may be affected. I take first the question of protection for the original owner of the land. If hon. Members turn, either now or later, to Clause 10, they will see how it is proposed to deal with that. The original owner may object to what is proposed. The Commission have to hear the objection and they may then, if they think proper, make a conditional recommendation, a recommendation, that is to say, that the purpose of the Government in seeking to acquire the land should not be proceeded with if the owner is willing to pay such sums as may be considered reasonable in respect of the works upon the land. That seems to me to be a very important provision, which would provide a background for fruitful negotiation and discussion between the Government Department concerned and the owner of the land. [An HON. MEMBER: "It may be hard on the owner."] Let us discuss in detail and see whether

  73
  it is likely to be hard. I want to confine myself to the more general aspects of the matter. But while I am on the point, there is another provision in the same Clause to which I should like to call attention, because I think it of very great importance. It is to the effect—it is Sub-section (3)—that where the Government propose to acquire land, for example, as under Clause 6, with a view to its rehabilitation, the Commission may, again, make a conditional recommendation, which would make it possible for the owner to recover the possession of his land on his giving an assurance that, on receiving the compensation, he would apply that compensation to the purpose of restoring the land, removing disfigurements and so on.
  Commander Agnew: Who would have to be satisfied in that case, that rehabilitation had been completed satisfactorily?
  Sir J. Anderson: It is a little difficult to deal with all these points as they are raised but I can assure my hon. Friend that an appropriate provision exists. I cannot give the exact reference but it provides that if after a promise has been given it has not been carried out, the process can be reversed and the Government Department concerned can take steps to re-enter the land and proceed with the rehabilitation. The point has been thought of, as indeed most points have in this most complicated Bill.
  May I pass to a very important matter, the protection which is given by the Bill in the case of dwelling-houses. I have always found, in dealing with matters of this kind, a very great sensitiveness—I think quite properly—in regard to any action affecting a person's dwelling-house or home, whether large or small. Dwelling-houses are the subject of a separate provision in Clause 11 (5). I have already explained that in every case of a dwelling-house, whatever the purpose for which the land is being acquired by the Government, the decision of the Commission is to be final in every case. Bat hon. Members will see that in Clause 11 (5) there is embodied a proposed direction to the Commission, It is to the effect that the Commission shall report that the carrying-out of the proposal ought not to be proceeded with, unless, in their opinion, one or other of three
  74
  conditions is satisfied. The first condition is that
  "the carrying out of the proposals is necessary in order to preserve something which is of substantial value to the community."
  For example, a dwelling-house might have been involved in extensive works on an airfield, and it would be absurd not to give powers to acquire that dwelling-house permanently, in such circumstances. But in every case unless that condition—or one of the other two in the Clause—is satisfied, the Commission have to say "No." The next condition is that
  "the dwelling-house has been damaged to such an extent that the cost of restoring it to the state in which it was before the occurrence of the damage, would exceed its value when restored."
  I ask the House to pay special attention to that condition. I know that some hon. Friends of nine are rather apprehensive lest that condition should import the implication that where the cost of restoring the dwellinghouse would exceed its value at the time of requisition, the Commission should always report in favour of the acquisition. That of course is not intended. It is the intention that the Commission should have an absolutely free hand, subject only to this, that they must report adversely to the Government's proposals unless the Commission is satisfied that one of these three conditions is present. I only want to say that if there is an objection to this condition being included because its does import an undesirable implication, the Government are perfectly prepared to consider dropping this second condition, and, in this case, the position would be that the Commission would have to report against the acquisition of the land unless, first, it was necessary in their opinion in order to safeguard something which is of substantial value to the community, or—coming to the third condition which I have not yet specified-unless they can report that the acquisition of the land
  "would not seriously affect the amenity or convenience of the dwellinghouse in question."
  Lieut.-Colonel Dower: Could the right hon. Gentleman say how the value would be ascertained? Would it be on the Schedule A assessment?
  Sir J. Anderson: I should like to stress that there is no obligation on the Commission, in any circumstances, to report in favour of acquisition. The only obligation on tile Commission is to report against

  75
  acquisition in certain circumstances. I am not aware that there is any question of value based on the Schedule A assessment. The value is in the value of the land in the condition in which it was at the time of requisition. As I have said, if on the Committee stage of the Bill it would appear better that the second of these conditions should be dropped the Government, as I have already said, are perfectly willing 'to consider it; but I thought it right to try to explain as clearly as I could why this provision had been put in.
  I would pass now to another question altogether, the question of the preservation of amenities. I have seen letter after letter in the newspapers and I have listened to hon. Friends of mine who have talked as if this Bill had been framed with the most reckless disregard of amenities, of orderly planning, and all that sort of thing. I am going to try to persuade the House that the exact opposite is the case. First let us look at Clause 11, which defines what the Commission has to consider. Clause 11 says that the Commission shall have regard to "all relevant considerations." That was intended to include the question of amenities, planning, agriculture and all the rest as well as the primary purpose. [An HON. MEMBER: "Defence works."] Defence works are outside the Bill, but the interest of the country is important. The Clause was drafted, with the deliberate intention that the Commission should have regard to all those considerations which I have specified, and I have not the slightest objection, if hon. Members think that there would be advantage in being more specific, to improve the references to amenities, agriculture, planning, etc., during the Committee stage. In that connection let me say—and here I have to confess for the first time what I think is a blemish in the Bill—that the Bill provides specifically for the class of persons who should be entitled to raise objections to anything proposed under the Bill, but it refers to those persons in a way which I think would practically limit it to persons having an interest in the land in the ordinary sense. I think the Bill ought to be improved here. I think we ought to put in references to the recognised societies who are concerned, for example, the Commons Preservation Society. I think we ought to put in specific references to local autho-
  76
  rities, and to local planning authorities. and I think when we have done that, the Bill, really, would be very nearly perfect. Anyway, I think it would be, from every point of view, an improvement to make that change. Still in connection with the question of amenity, let me refer to Clause 6, which is concerned with the cost of depreciated land. There are two provisions. In the first the Government may enter upon land where:
  "the cost of restoring the land to the condition in which it was before the work was done or the damage caused is likely to exceed the amount by which the value of the land, together with any adjoining or neighbouring land held therewith by any person interested in the land, has been diminished."
  I think hon. Members have felt a little anxious lest that provision might be used to acquire open spaces or commons. That was not the intention at all. The intention of that particular provision can best be illustrated by reference to a case that I have in mind, where a substantial building was taken over by the Government, converted by the use of prodigious quantities of steel and concrete into something resembling a fortress, and then taken in occupation by certain people, in whom the Government were interested. If that building had to be handed over to the owner, under the ordinary provisions in regard to compensation, he would be entitled to the cost of removing the works that had been carried out on the land, subject only to the limit of the original value of the building, which happened to be a pretty expensive building. That is the sort of case that this particular provision had in contemplation, but the number of cases to which the provision would be applicable, in the form in which the Government intended to apply it, is I believe strictly limited, and I think there are other ways of dealing with the particular problem that I have described. If there is any apprehension, I am going to say, here and now, that that particular part of Clause 6 may go if that is desired. The other part of Clause 6 deals with the case where:
  "it if desirable in the public interest that the land should be dealt with in a particular manner with a view to the total or partial rehabilitation thereof and the land is only likely to be dealt with in that manner if it is acquired by virtue of this Part of this Act."
  Who will object to that? That is a provision put in for one purpose only, the

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  preservation of amenity, and that we intend to retain. Let me, while still on the same point, refer to the provisions of Clause 47. I doubt whether there is any precedent for the provisions of that Clause. What it says is that if the amount payable in compensation under the law, as I have described it, on the return of land to the owner, would not be sufficient to restore it to its previous condition, the Government may pay still more money to the owner to provide for such restoration.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Cuthbert Headlam (Newcastle-on-Tyne, North): Will that apply to land turned up for open-cast coal?
  Sir J. Anderson: I am glad to have an opportunity to refer to that matter. Greatly to my surprise, I have been told by several Members that there is an impression that this Bill is to be used when it is in operation to enable the Government to abstain from restoring the surface of land from which open-cast coal has been acquired. I wish to -say, in the most categorical terms, that I know of absolutely no foundation for that suggestion. There are two departments concerned in this matter, the Ministry of Fuel and Power and the Ministry of Works. I have inquired of them both, and I am assured that there is no intention whatever of departing in any way from the very high standard, which I can say from personal experience has so far been followed, in regard to the restoration of land from which open-cast coal has been recovered.
  Mr. Graham White: I think the apprehension, or the feeling, in the minds of hon. Members is this: Why should this arrangement, which has been carried out so well, not be applied equally to the restoration of sites, of commons, or whatever it may be, in which there is a public interest? Why not do in those cases, what is done in the case of open-cast coal?
  Sir J. Anderson: I am sorry, but my hon. Friend could not have been listening to what I have said. I have explained that the purpose of Clause 6 is to enable the Government to take possession of land for the purpose of restoring it. The case of open-cast coal is rather a special case, because the appliances are all there, ready to hand, and the restoration of the
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  surface can be carried out as the work proceeds. I mentioned it only because I know that that particular case has troubled hon. Members. I have been at great pains to get to the bottom of what I know is a complete misapprehension, and I think the action that has been taken in regard to open-cast coal is a good indication of the general attitude of the Government towards this question of amenity.
  Before I pass from amenity, there is one other thing I want to say. It has been suggested that the Bill is lacking in that it does not provide, specifically, for consultation between the Ministers directly concerned in the land which is to be acquired—for example the Minister of Agriculture or the Minister of Town and Country Planning. That omission does not in the least mean that there will not be the fullest consultation. There will be the fullest consultation, but there are objections, which I believe have great force, to attempting in any Bill, whether of this kind or any other, to regulate the relations between various responsible. Ministers in the same Government. [An HON. MEMBER: "It has been clone many times."] It has not been done very often, and the best precedents are against it. I have taken some trouble to look up the facts. There are some cases where it has been done, but it tends to lead to confusion, because some Ministers who might be interested are inevitably left out, and they are apparently in a position of disadvantage; and it is inconsistent with the general doctrine of the collective responsibility of Ministers. But there will be the fullest consultation. In the case of commons, for example, or cases in which agricultural land is concerned, the -Minister of Agriculture will be kept informed and consulted, and in general, the Minister of Town and Country Planning, who was consulted at every stage in the drafting of this Bill, will be taken into consultation when planning considerations arise.
  Sir Frank Sanderson: Can my right hon. Friend state whether land and buildings purchased under this Bill will be subject in all respects to the local planning scheme?
  Sir J. Anderson: I really cannot give any such assurance. In different localities the position differs widely in regard to the

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  state of planning schemes. I will repeat what I have already said, that in every case the local planning authority will be included among the authorities entitled to make representations. They can take their representations to the Commission, or to the Minister of Town and Country Planning, and so, I think, the interests of orderly planning will be adequately safeguarded.
  I referred to commons in connection with Clause 6. I would like to refer, in passing, to Clause 26, which deals with lands that are being acquired for use by local authorities—it may be the health authority, or the education authority. I would point out that Clause 26 contains a provision attracting the provisions of the Local Government Act, 1933, and that has the effect of preserving the position under which, without the express confirmation of Parliament, common land cannot be diverted for the use of a local authority unless equivalent land is provided elsewhere. I mention that only to show how very solicitous the Government have been in the interests of common land, of amenity, and of planning.
  I now come to what I believe is the most difficult part of this Bill, Clause 8 (5). It provides that where a certificate in a specified form is issued by the President of the Board of Trade, the land may be acquired without reference to the Commission. That is the exception, to which I referred at the beginning, to the general provision that all acquisitions under this Bill have to go to the Commission. The provision is, in a sense, inconsistent with the general structure of the Bill, and I must explain to the House quite frankly how it comes to be in the Bill. When the Government were considering, some little time ago, the arrangements which could best be made for the disposal of the considerable number of factories that will become available after the war for the ordinary purposes of industry—and in that connection they attached, I am sure the House will think rightly, very great importance to the systematic and orderly disposal of these factories—they came up against this very serious practical question.
  In a high proportion of the cases the factories which will become available are on land which the Government do not own, on requisitioned land in most cases.
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  or it may be in a few cases on land upon which the Government have merely entered. How is a clear title to be given in those circumstances to anyone who might wish to acquire a factory? If every case is allowed to go to the Commission, and be dealt with on its merits, after adequate notice, due consideration, the hearing of all the interests concerned, possibly a public inquiry, surely that must be wholly inconsistent with dealing 'with this particular problem in speedy and orderly fashion. The Government saw no way out of the difficulty, other than to take this particular limited class of works out of the purview of the Commission.
  The provision is hedged round. The Board of Trade must certify that the land which is to be acquired is, or is part of, industrial premises. That is the first condition. The second condition is the premises must in substance owe their existing character, so far as the buildings and structures on them are concerned, to Government war work. The third is the one I have already indicated,
  "that in the interests of an orderly transition from war conditions to peace conditions it is expedient that the ability of the Crown to dispose of the premises …should be established forthwith."
  The only advice I can give the House is to let the Bill go forward with this Clause in it, and let us see, when we get to the Committee stage, whether there is any way, other than by reference to the Commission—which I think is impossible —in which the matters about which so many hon. Members are concerned can be safeguarded. I give that advice. I think it is essential in the national interest that these factories should be released and made available for our ordinary industry speedily, and in an orderly manner, as they become available, and I do not think that many hon. Members will disagree with me in that.
  Sir 'Edward Campbell: Is there any appeal to anybody?
  Sir J. Anderson: There is no appeal.
  Mr. R. Morgan: One can imagine a case in which some of these requisitioned factories are producing large sums in the shape of educational trusts, or Chancery trusts, running into thousands of pounds per year. Will there be a right of public inquiry and adequate compensation before they can be acquired?
  Sir J. Anderson: I have just said most frankly to the House that this provision is an exception to the provisions in the Bill, which otherwise provide the fullest possible safeguards, with the right of hearing and so on. I wish to ask the House, when the Bill reaches the Committee stage, to look at the matter with the Government, and see if we can strengthen the position in any reasonable way. I want the help of hon. Members in this matter.
  I desire to say this: It has been suggested that the Bill might be used to override existing binding agreements entered into with the owners of land at the time of requisitioning, to the effect that the land would be restored, or would be dealt with in a particular manner. There is no intention, I need hardly say, of using any powers in a Bill of this kind to override an agreement which is binding on the Government. I am perfectly ready, if that point is a matter of concern, to agree to a redrafting of the Clause which will make perfectly clear that it is not the intention of the Government to do anything of that kind.
  I said at the outset, greatly daring, that I hoped I would be able to persuade the House that the Bill is not such a bad Bill, and that, so far from disregarding questions of amenity, agriculture, common rights, arid so on, care has been taken at various points to introduce safeguards for these matters. If I have suceeded I hope the House will be content to let the Bill go forward to the Committee stage. I have given a quite clear indication that the Government are perfectly ready to consider, in Committee, amendments which would not in any way hamper them in the action which they, in fact, contemplate taking under the Bill, but which will make it quite clear, for the benefit of this Government and any succeeding Government, that action of the kind they have never contemplated will not be possible. The Ministers will be very ready to co-operate with hon. Members in that task in Committee. That is all that I have to submit to the House at this stage, but I confidently ask hon. Members to agree to the Second Reading of the Bill.
  1.15p.m.
  Mr. Key: With the main purpose of this Bill we here are in complete accord, but I have to admit that with some of the methods that are pro-
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  posed, and with some of the machinery suggested, we are not satisfied. While we shall willingly give the Bill a Second Reading, we shall reserve freedom of action on Third Reading, and determine our attitude by what changes are made on the Committee stage. For a Bill which has been claimed to be almost perfect, it seems that the Committee is to be kept pretty busy in making alterations.
  It is all to the good that we should devise machinery and provide powers for preserving for the community what can be preserved of the value of buildings and works which have been carried out on requisitioned land during the war, but it would be wrong to maintain such as were brought into existence in the stress of the war, because of the dire necessity of national safety, at the sacrifice of public rights, social amenities, cultural wellbeing, or the beauty of the countryside, merely because restoration would involve considerable expenditure of money, time, and labour. I still think that what is wrong with the Bill is not that it aims at the preservation of works and buildings, but that it seems to make money the only measure of merit, and to sacrifice public rights of way, the beauty of our commons and open spaces, the proper planning of our countryside, and the beneficial use of our land, to a mere cash calculation of the cost of restoration. We have spent freely, and rightly so, to preserve our powers of democratic development and freedom of speech and movement, and it would be a tragedy if one outcome of the money so spent were the robbery from the common people of their rights of access to common lands and footpaths, which they have struggled through the centuries to secure.
  If ever there was a problem in which one would have thought that the Minister of Town and Country Planning would be called upon to play a predominant part, this is such a problem. We have recently set up that Ministry. Alas, so far it does not seem to have done very much. But not only is the Minister's name, very significantly, omitted from the imposing list of backers of this Measure, but, so far as I can remember, he is not once mentioned in the Bill. A Commission is to be appointed, to inquire into the proposals for the exercise of the powers which the Bill will give; but the Commission is to owe no allegiance whatever to the Minister of Town and Country Planning. Its

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  attention will not even be called to the fact that such a Ministry exists. The Commission is to be appointed by the Treasury. I feel that, being appointed by such an organisation, this body will consider that its main purpose is the protection of the public purse, even at the sacrifice of public welfare.
  That seems to me to be no exaggeration. As I read Clause II, the people who are to make this inquiry are to have their particular attention drawn to certain aspects, to which they must give the greatest attention. For instance, in the acquisition of land on the ground that the value of the work on it should be preserved, they are definitely charged to go into the question of the cost of the works, the financial advantage to the objector or the degree of loss that the objector would sustain, but nothing is said in the Bill about whether or not the situation of the works violates a local planning scheme, or whether it fits in with a scheme, provided that one is being worked out, for the wiser location of industry. It is gratifying that we have been told this morning that Amendments will be accepted by the Government, on the Committee stage, to make it necessary that attention should be given to that matter. But I still feel that since the Commission is being called upon to operate on these principles, it is very' likely that the wellbeing of the local community and the wise planning of our countryside may be sacrificed.
  What disturbs me more than anything else in this connection is that the Minister is not only in a position to ignore any decisions which the Commission may make, but the Commission may be precluded from giving any consideration to the proposals at all. Unless I misread the Bill entirely, the Commission is to have no power to initiate policy, but is merely to consider objections. The things that are to be done are those which in the opinion of the Minister ought to be done, and the Commission has no power to restrain him. The Commission comes into operation only when persons having an interest in the land raise objections. We have been assured this morning that the possibilities of amendment have been considered in order that local authorities, local planning committees, and organisations of citizens may be among those
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  whose objections can be taken into account. But at present, unless my reading of the Bill is all wrong, they have no standing in the matter. The Minister of Town and Country Planning has no status, and even the Minister of Agriculture, the person who has the statutory duty of protecting commons, is brushed on one side. If the Minister concerned comes to terms with those who have got an interest in the land, no Commission, no other living soul at all, has anything to say with regard to the proposals.
  Another objection regarding the operations of the Commission is that they can be carried out in conditions of complete secrecy. By Clause 8 (3) any inquiry which the Commissioners shall make may, at their discretion, be held in private. The position regarding the Board of Trade has already been mentioned. I sincerely hope that in Committee some means will be found of securing that questions of town and country planning, the preservation of amenities, the proper ordered location of industry, and the wiser distribution of our population, will have to be taken into account before the President of the Board of Trade can operate independently in this matter.
  There are two subjects upon which I wish to say a few more words. The first is with regard to the great apprehension which is being felt as to the possible dangers to the commons and open spaces of our countryside. Not unnaturally, in the urgency of war, camps and training grounds, aerodromes and hutments, even factories and hospitals, were widely constructed on our commons and open spaces. Being unenclosed and uncultivated, these spaces offered natural attractions for such development. While it may have been regretted at the time, surely, in the circumstances, no objection could have been taken. There has always been a feeling in the minds of those of us on local authorities who are interested in commons and open spaces that restoration would follow at the end of the war. But by this Bill those hopes have been largely diminished. Not only what is commonly regarded as common land, but also land which has been acquired by trusts and such bodies for playing fields and recreation grounds, may be acquired by one of the Ministers concerned, and afterwards sold by him for purposes far different from those for which they were first designed.

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  We have in the last 3o or 40 years done a great deal to preserve the public open spaces, and we have made it a condition of the use of any part of them for other purposes that compensation shall be made by the provision of equivalent areas of common land elsewhere in the locality. In this Bill, there is no such provision. Common rights may be swept away. Even the Minister of Agriculture may not sanction the enclosure of common land, unless he is satisfied that it will be for the benefit of the inhabitants at large, but in this Bill neither he nor anyone else is empowered to prevent such a thing being done. If one of these eight Ministers makes up his mind to acquire. common lands, he can do it without further provision of any equivalent open space elsewhere. There will be a great temptation to do so, for land of this kind can be acquired, naturally, at a cheap rate, and then, by the very 'act of abolishing commoners' rights and closing up footpaths, it can be re-sold at a greatly enhanced price—a financial gain to the Treasury, it is true, but irreparable loss to the common people in the areas concerned.
  With regard to the point of cross-country footpaths, I feel that there is a great danger. Large numbers of these footpaths have been closed during the war years, and this Bill, in Clause 20, continues the closing of these paths for another two years after the lapse of the powers given under the Defence Acts. This, it would appear, may be done even though there is no reason why, for war purposes, the footpaths should be closed, and even, indeed, after the land has actually reverted to civil ownership and control. Worse still, in my opinion, is the power that is to be given to the Minister of War Transport to close a footpath permanently, if he thinks fit. The object is, presumably, to increase the saleable value of the land so that the Treasury can get a greater profit out of it in the end. It is gratifying that the possibilities of objection in this part of the Bill are wider than in the other parts. But there is still a power of the Minister to ignore the Commission's recommendations if he so desires.
  We have been given the assurance that the Government will be willing to deal with, and remedy in Committee, a goodly number of these difficulties, and, on that assurance, we are prepared to give this
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  Bill its Second Reading. But we urge that questions of the preservation of amenities, and of the proper development and lay-out of our countryside, shall have precedence over the mere money value of any proposals which may be put forward.
  1.34 P.m.
  Mr. Turton (Thirsk and Mahon): I beg to move, to leave out "now," and, at the end of the Question, to add "upon this day six months."
  I want to be perfectly candid with the House and say that I am in a great quandary. When my right hon. Friend the Chancellor began the first half of his speech to-day, I was reminded of a proud and effusive mother describing her firstborn child to a visitor. It was a very good child, a sweet-tempered child, which had nothing wrong with it, except for one or two little blemishes that would come off with hot water and soap. In the second portion of his speech, the right hon. Gentleman took off his coat, put on an apron and began to take some of these blemishes off, until, at the end, I was not quite certain that I could recognise the child. It was a very good speech and a great Parliamentary performance by the Chancellor, but it places those who come after the right hon. Gentleman in this Debate in a very difficult position.
  This Bill has been in the possession of hon. Members and of the Chancellor for something like two months. Now, a great many of its provisions are scrubbed away because it is agreed that they are not what this country desires. I say that this Second Reading stage should be delayed until we have an opportunity of seeing exactly what changes the Chancellor desires to make in his Bill. It is, I would submit, an abuse of the Parliamentary system, especially in war-time, when we are allowed to put down Amendments prior to Second Reading, if no alterations can be put down to the Bill until the Second Reading Debate, when it is known that some hon. Members take violent exception to certain provisions of the Bill. We are hampered by that difficulty. While it was a great Parliamentary performance on the part of the Chancellor to-day, I remember that, in the early days of the war, I learnt that it was the right thing, if the enemy was going to attack, to withdraw your forward defence line, so that the preliminary barrage would fall on empty trenches, and you could prepare for a

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  counter-attack to drive the enemy back. I think we are hampered to-day by the skilful Parliamentary tactics of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  We are all agreed that a Bill is necessary for this purpose, but I cannot tell what is left of the scrubbed child at this moment. Let me put forward what I believe to be the view of the country on what kind of Bill required. First, for defence purposes, we require to secure a speedy method of obtaining the land which the country requires for defence purposes. Secondly, for factories, we require a method by which requisitioned land can air used for factories without delay, where this is in conformity with the plan for full employment. Thirdly, we require a Bill, as the Chancellor has made quite clear, to restore the land of Britain, where it has been ravaged or damaged by war.
  Listening to part of the Chancellor's speech, I could not see that there was very much division between my view of what the Bill should be, and his view of how this Bill which he has introduced should be altered to gain these three objects But let me say this. First, on the question of land required for defence purposes, I think that some hon. Members, and perhaps some right hon. Gentlemen, still do not appreciate that only 8 Clauses of this Bill—Clauses
  31 to 38—deal with this problem of land required for defence purposes. What I should like to see inserted in that part of the Bill, is a recognition that food production is an essential part of the defence of this country. That point has, I think, been made on public platforms and at farmers' gatherings up and down the country, and it has a real relevance to this matter. This country is confined to a limited acreage. To-day, I think it is a fact that some 600,000 acres or more of agricultural land has been taken for defence purposes. The problems of the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Food in feeding this nation have been made more difficult by that large acreage which has been taken out of potential food production, and I wish to make the point that, before land is taken for defence purposes, it is essential that the Minister of Agriculture should always be consulted. I know of cases in this war where land has been taken and where consultation has not taken place, and where, as a result, less food has been
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  produced than would have been done if other land had been taken. But I will say no more on that point about land for defence purposes, which this Bill hardly touches, and on which the whole House, I think, is in pretty fair agreement.
  Let me now turn to the question of land for factories. It is quite true that we require that factories built on requisitioned land shall remain, in certain cases, as factories. We do not want to see a waste of opportunity for employment on demobilisation, but we do require to see that these factories are located in accordance with good planning, and that they will be sited where the local authorities want them to be sited. What happens under this Bill? Clause 8 (5), I gather from the Chancellor's speech, is still in suspense, and the decision whether a temporary factory shall be continued in the post-war era is to depend upon the planning, not of the local authority, not of the Minister of Town and Country Planning, not of the War Works Commission, but of the President of the Board of Trade. I have a very great respect for the right hon. Gentleman who adorns the Board of Trade, but I can think of no right hon. Gentleman on that Government Front Bench to whom I would less like to entrust the planning of England, than my right hon. Friend. He is the wrong Minister to plan Britain. He has got his job. which, no doubt, he does very adequately, concerning clothing coupons and all the rest of it, but the planning of the factories of Britain is a job that I want to be done by the Minister of Town and Country Planning, or any other high Cabinet Minister, like the Minister for Reconstruction, who has no Departmental cares.
  This is an important matter. I would like hon. Members for North-East coast constituencies to consider what will be the effect if Clause 8 (5) is kept in the Bill. The North-East coast has, in this war, been regarded as a vulnerable area, and no factories have been placed there. Rural England, away from the North-East coast, has been used for temporary factories. If this Bill becomes law, and the President of the Board of Trade can give a certificate by which he can condemn rural England to be the permanent rival of the North-East coast, then I think a great disservice will be done to that part of the country. I beg the Government, and the

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  Attorney-General, who is in charge at the present time, to reconsider very carefully this Clause 8 (5). It has been said that the reason why we leave this solely to the President of the Board of Trade is that there must be no delay, but you can plan too quickly. A lot of the unemployment that was caused after the war was, I believe, due to hasty decisions. I ask that in this case the authority in Clause 8 (5) should be changed from the President of the Board of Trade to the Minister of Town and Country Planning. If that point were granted it would make a great difference to this Bill.
  My third point was that we all wish to seen the land of England restored where it has been damaged or ravaged by the war, and that is my chief objection to this Bill as printed. Goodness knows, seeing how it has been scrubbed about now, what is the effect of it, but the Bill, as printed, put, as my hon. Friend who preceded me said, the financial aspect in front of the aspect of the restoration of the land of England. This country will never stand for that. The Chancellor, in describing Clause 5, seemed to me to be making out that where the Crown has placed on the land extensive works which should be preserved, it was meant to deal with works that were in some way connected with war needs, and not under the Defence Acts. That has not hitherto been my understanding of the Bill, but if that is the type of land which is to be acquired—land which is on the margin for defence purposes—I would have no objection to that part of Clause 5 at all.
  I will give the House the type of picture I have contemplated under Clause 5 where the Crown is trying to preserve the value of its works upon land. I know of a house in my own constituency, an old-fashioned 17th century house, where the annual value was under £l00. An armoured division came along and wanted to have headquarters made of it. They put hutments all round, put in tank standings and made a now drive, and, as they were not very good at working the electric light engines that we have in the country, they smashed up five electric light engines. The cost of that house at the time when the armour moved out and they had to use it for other military purposes connected with prisoners of war, came to £25,000—and that was the house with an annual value of less than £100.
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  Is it the intention of the Government to try and acquire that land because it has been so expensive to them? It certainly, in my view, could be so construed under Clause 5, but as we are to have a legal explanation, the position can be made clear. I am sure that this country does not want the Government to have power to acquire that land and also to have power to sell it, and that also is not clear from the Chancellor's speech. When the Government acquire this land under Clause 5, will they have power to sell it to other people? I believe that what hon. Members in all parts of the House are most fearful about is lest the Government, in order to save money, shall trade this victim of war with land speculators, holiday camp makers and all that black market that always exists in damaged goods. That is the great danger that we see and, as I read the Bill, I cannot see that any word that the Chancellor of the Exchequer uttered this morning has removed that danger from the land of England.
  I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer—and this is where I must now revise my approach under Clause 6—whether the position is clear under Clause 6 where the Government through the Service Departments have in the course of their training destroyed the countryside. I will give an example so that the House will understand the case of which I am thinking. In the whole of the North of England, the moors—it is no secret now—were used for training the armour which was so successful in the gallop from Falaise to Ghent. In the course of that training the moors have suffered considerable damage. The walls and the fences are down and the roads which provided access to the small farms have been badly damaged—one I know, has dropped four feet—and the House will appreciate the result. Sheep farming, which before the war was the life of that rural community, has disappeared as a result of this damage to the moorlands. The cost of restoration is far in excess of the value of the land whether you use the phrase "the 1939 value" or "the 1945 value."
  Do we understand from the concession that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has announced, that the Government will see that that land is restored? It must be remembered that when we talk about the value of land, it is not Schedule A value, 1930 value or 1945 value. The

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  value I attach to this land is the cost of the improvements that our ancestors put into the land. If you go back over the last 300 years, and on any acre of Britain, you will find that nine times the annual value has been spent in improvements on such land. This land is a permanent asset to the people of England and England will never tolerate that asset being left derelict as a result of the war. I would ask the learned Attorney-General when he comes to reply to make it clear that, in respect of these moors and similar cases, the land will be restored.
  I, perhaps, feel personally about this matter because early in 1940 my battalion, in which I was then serving more actively, was stationed South-West of Amiens, and we found ourselves in a curious country quite unlike the battlefields of France after the last war. The country was deserted and derelict. It had not been restored after the last war. When you went to Lens or La Bassee you saw great new buildings, but that little rural area South-West of Amiens had been left because it was not of such economic advantage to the French nation to restore the countryside as it was to restore the more industrial areas. That area was without soul and without spirit and I vowed that after this war, if I could help it, we would never let the same thing happen to rural England. I believed that this Bill, certainly before the Chancellor of the Exchequer began to scrub it in a washing process, was going to do the same to rural England as was done round that area near Amiens.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer talked a great deal about airfields. Nobody is better qualified than the learned Attorney-General to satisfy us about this point. I understand that defence works are excluded from this Bill except for Part VII. I ask the learned Attorney-General, as I asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Are not airfields also excluded by the operation of the Air Navigation Acts of 1920 and 1926? I am going to weary the House by actually referring to these Acts. Section 15 of the Air Navigation Act, 1920, lays down that:
  "the power of the Secretary of State to acquire land under the Military Land Act shall include power to acquire land for the purposes of this Act and generally for the purposes of civil aviation."
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  Section 25 of the Act of 1936 lays down that:
  "The Secretary of State"—
  the Secretary of State for Air—
  "shall have power to manage, sell, let or exchange any land vested in him for purposes of civil aviation whether acquired under the Military Lands Act or under any other Act."
  Under my construction—and I hope I am wrong—the Secretary of State for Air can, for war or for peace, buy any land whether it is requisitioned or not, and having bought such land, if he bought it for purposes of civil aviation, he can sell it for war, for peace, for pleasure, or for profit. I do not think that that is right. If I am correct—and nobody will be more glad than I if I am wrong—it is for Parliament to amend that decision. Aerodromes are very important matters to all. I do not deny their importance in peace but we must not let these great vistas of cement mar our rural industries and our local planning, or run counter to the convenience of the local authority. If I am right, the Secretary of State for Air—and I am glad to see that the Under-Secretary has just come into the Chamber—can bypass this Bill. Is that the position? Does he intend to? Can I get an undertaking from the Under-Secretary, who has now approached that Box, that the Secretary of State for Air will refer these matters in all cases to the War Works Commission? If we can get that undertaking, I can assure the House that neither I nor my hon. Friends would want to divide the House on the issue of this Bill. If we cannot get that answer, and if the Secretary of State for Air has powers which will mean that all this great acreage of agricultural land at present under cement will not be even referred to the Wax Works Commission, then I feel that I must prosecute my hostility to this Bill.
  Service Departments have not a good reputation in this matter. There is one other Clause in this Bill which concerns the powers of the Secretary of State for Air but it is not a good Clause and it is one of the few which was not washed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That is Clause 7 which gives the Minister, when he has power to acquire land, a right that he may
  "discharge wholly or partly or modify any restriction as to the user of that land.…"
  Again, I merely try to construe this simply, but so far as I can see this would

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  allow the Admiralty to carry on with their plans in the Lleyn peninsula. May I remind the House of the story of the Lleyn peninsula? There, the Admiralty have a project on the most beautiful part of the coast in Wales, and it is their intention, having got their war works there, to sell that land to Mr. Butlin for a holiday camp. They are one of the Service Departments to which Clause 7 gives this provision. The local authorities have protested, the planning committees have protested, yet the Admiralty have kept on insisting that they shall have the power to sell that beauty spot for a holiday camp.
  That is what we fear will happen, if this Bill becomes law, all over rural England and I am not satisfied that my right hon. Friend really appreciates the danger of some of the provisions of this Bill. Quite clearly it would be wrong for me to raise points of detail on Second Reading. If I did so, I would beat the record of Mr. Joe Biggar, who talked for 6¼ hours. I hope I have sketched out what I believe to be the objects we should have for a Bill of this kind, and the dangers that still lie, even after we have lost the noxious Clause 6 (a), even after we have what we have fought for and asked for—the right for Parliament to determine those cases where the Minister overrules the War Works Commission; even then, so long as the Crown has power to sell land or to modify a restriction, and has power not to insist that land is restored, I see a very grave danger through this Bill.
  I am not asking to-day, and I have never asked under this Bill, for more compensation. What I do ask for, as a principle that Parliament should lay down, is that where the war has damaged land or buildings, either the Crown will restore that damage at their own expense, or they will allow the owner, if he has restored it, to be recouped the cost of restoration. The Chancellor said, where a promise had been given, that the land would be restored. That concession does not go far enough. I know certain Government Departments which can always take refuge under Defence Regulations 50 and 52. When land was requisitioned there was an implied promise by the State that after the land or the buildings had been used for war purposes, they would be handed back restored to their pre-war condition.That
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  was an implied promise. I was very glad to notice that a leading Sunday paper had a leader on that point. Unless they give that pledge, this Government is making a breach of that implied promise.
  This is no party issue. Actually in my own constituency, constituents of all three parties have asked me to vote against this Bill. Whether I do so or not, now depends on the reply I get from the learned Attorney-General. May I say this, however, that this Bill means a great deal not merely to the lawyers, not merely to the citizens of this country, but principally, I find, to those who are serving overseas. When I was serving overseas I often thought why I was fighting. I did not think just of vague ideals, or even merely of hatred of the enemy, but principally of my vision. Of England—the commons, the cornfields, the moors and woodlands, old houses. Having talked to people, I think that is a very common attitude of the man abroad. He wants to get back to those things to that England he knows, not to a great army of hutments, not to long vistas of cement and cold, scarred billets that once were houses. That is the message, I think, that the men fighting will give to Parliament to-day—Restore England, whatever the cost, whatever the Treasury says.
  2.8 p.m.
  General Sir George Jeffreys (Peters-field): I beg to second the Amendment.
  I must confess, that like my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) I was very much impressed with the conciliatory tone of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who certainly made what appear to be very considerable concessions and those, presumably, will be put into the Bill at a later stage. The Chancellor referred to the complications of the Bill and the difficulty of understanding it. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in introducing a Bill, makes such a reference, I think we may take it that there is some excuse for the feeling, which I believe is in the mind of almost every private Member, and certainly throughout the country, that the Bill is incredibly difficult to understand and is appallingly complicated. That is a real fault in the Bill. We all agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that a Bill is necessary, but, to ordinary mortals, it would appear

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  that that Bill should be much simpler, much clearer, and more comprehensible than the one which is now before the House. Is it really necessary for the long ago Defence Acts of 1842 and 1854 to be referred to? And also later Defence, and other Acts, and the Compensation (Defence) Act of 1939? What is not referred to is the Air Navigation Act, which is in the thoughts of a great many of us and which, so far as we can make out, does and will affect the agricultural and common land of this country taken over for aerodromes and for other air purposes.
  One can understand hasty, untidy legislation being passed in a period of emergency when the country was in imminent danger. But that is not the case now. The emergency is over, and the object of this Bill is to effect a resettlement of the land and property of this country which have been so grievously disturbed by Government action, even though it be agreed that in many cases it was necessary Government action. What is required now is a settlement which is fair to all, which can be easily comprehended by ordinary people, and which will fully implement the obligations of the Government. Could not a Bill have been framed—cannot a Bill now be framed—which would repeal these old and obsolete Defence Acts, and lay down a new procedure comprehensible not only to trained lawyers, but also, and without undue study, to laymen, particularly those affected by the Bill? I still hope that the Government may see fit to act on these lines, rather than further to complicate and further to patch up this Bill by haphazard alterations to it. In a Bill of this kind, I suggest that two things are necessary; first, simplicity of its framework and expression; secondly, justice and fairness to all the interests concerned, whether of individuals or of the public, or of commoners in the case of common land. Judged by those two tests, I suggest that even with the amendments to which the Chancellor expressed himself as being not opposed, this Bill is very unsatisfactory.
  My remarks, like those of my hon. Friend the mover of the Amendment, will be concerned principally with agricultural land, and dwelling-houses in the country, and with common land and land
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  over which the public have rights. I would say that at this stage the main object—I know of my hon. Friend and myself, and I believe of many who think like us—is to get land and dwelling-houses rehabilitated by the Government and then restored to their original owners. The Chancellor said that in the vast majority of cases—he used that expression —land would be restored, would be given up by the Government. I fully realise, and I am sure we all do, that some land will have to be retained which is still required for national purposes—for air purposes or otherwise—but it is with the land which is to be given up and which is not absolutely required, that we are principally concerned and as to the fate of which we are certainly apprehensive. We are apprehensive that land will be acquired where it is thought that by acquiring it, the Government can to some extent cut its losses. That is what we are afraid of, and that is what my hon. Friend was referring to when he spoke of areas of concrete being left about the country and put up for sale to anybody who would buy them after the Government had acquired them. That is what I really think—if it is in the mind of any Government Department, and I have some reason to believe that it has been in the mind of the Air Ministry, at any rate—would be a most immoral proceeding which could not be justified.
  Owners have put up with much during the national emergency. They have been turned out of their houses at short notice; they have had great difficulty in storing their goods and chattels. They have been put to financial loss and inconvenience, but they put up with everything because it was a time of national emergency, and their land or houses were required for national purposes. But they cannot be expected to put up with injustice, injury and even undue inconvenience when the emergency is over, and it is a case of making some sort of reparation for the losses they have suffered and the inconveniences to which they have been subjected. They are definitely not seeking to make great sums of money out of the Government. All they are seeking is to get their property restored to them, and the damage done to it by the Government made good by the Government.
  Even if the full cost of rehabilitation were paid by the Government—and nothing less could possibly be justified—

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  private individuals would seldom be able to obtain the labour and machinery, or facilities, to carry out restoration on a big scale, for instance, when dealing with miles of concrete on aerodromes and so forth. But the Government can command the labour and the machinery and, what is very important these days, the priorities to carry out the work of restoration and replacement, and I hope very much that the Government will shoulder their responsibility in that way and not try to fob off owners with a cash payment, even if that payment is on a liberal scale. Camps and aerodromes have been constructed over a great area of land, some of it common land which ought to be restored to the public. Most of the constructions, I do not hesitate to say, have been on agricultural land, the estimated area being not less than 600,000 acres. I feel certain that the Minister of Agriculture would wish to see these acres restored to agriculture, and I hope that in all such cases he will be consulted. I do not know to what extent he is being consulted, but I am quite certain that he ought to be. I believe that the area involved is possibly greater than the 600,000 acres, which is a conservative estimate. Rehabilitation will be expensive, no doubt, but the Government Departments, which laid the land waste, should themselves restore all of it that is vacated.
  Another criticism which was made of the Bill, and which was discounted by the Chancellor, was that it appears completely to ignore considerations of planning, and does not appear in any way to fit in with the Town and Country Planning Act of last year. The Chancellor gave a definite assurance, which we should be very glad to see in the Bill, that the Minister of Town and Country Planning would be consulted in all appropriate cases, and' that local planning committees would also be consulted when cases come before the Commission. That goes a considerable way towards disposing of the objection that planning considerations had been left out of account.
  May I now turn to one or two of the Clauses? Part I of the Bill deals with the setting up of the Commission, and I am sure we were all very glad to hear to-day from the Chancellor that that Commission must be independent and impartial. But I do think that a Commission, appointed by the Treasury, has consider-
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  able defects, because that Commission will be thought of as one which would give undue weight to financial considerations. It has been suggested that the chairman should be an eminent lawyer, appointed by the Lord Chancellor, and that the members should be representative of agriculture, trade, planning and amenities. But whatever the composition of the Commission, so long as Clause 9, Sub-sections (1), (2) and (3), stand—and on this I do not think the Chancellor has convinced us—the Commission must have a great deal of its value discounted. Clause 9 gives power to Ministers to override the findings of the Commission. That is wholly unacceptable, and it is difficult to see the object of appointing a Commission at all if Ministers are to be free to discard its recommendations and override them. The decisions of that Commission, I suggest, should be final, with one exception which I, personally, should like to see, namely, that there should be the right of appeal to the High Court. The Chancellor referred to Clause 8 (5) as being the most difficult in the Bill, and an exception to the rule as regards safeguards. This Clause deals with the disposal of factories. I think that we have, to some extent, been reassured by the Chancellor in this case, in that this particular class of work might be taken out of the purview of the Commission. My right hon. Friend said he would consider possible alterations in Committee. I hope he will go further than "possible," and make definite alterations, and will take away the power, particularly, of the Board of Trade in this case. Why should the Board of Trade be the Department selected to certify that particular properties should not be dealt with?
  As regards Clause 5 (2) and Clause 6 (2), they give power to the Minister to acquire adjoining and neighbouring land. This is far too wide a power. I suggest that if the Commission consider that works cannot properly be used or maintained only then is it necessary to consider that adjoining land may be acquired. It should be very exceptional at this time of the war for adjoining or neighbouring land to be acquired. If it is necessary why was not this adjoining land taken originally? Now that it is more a question of closing down works, rather than building or increasing them, it seems to me that it is unnecessary to give this power to

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  acquire adjoining or neighbouring land. If it is to be given it ought to be entirely on the recommendation of the Commission, and not at the will of the Minister.
  Clause 9 (5) is the one bright spot in the otherwise murky prospect of this Bill. This Clause deals with dwelling houses, gardens, parks, etc., which, if the Commission find that they ought not to be acquired, seem to be protected. But they are qualified by Clause II (5) which almost nullifies Clause 9 (5), particularly Clause II (5, b) to which the Chancellor referred, which deals with dwelling-houses damaged to such an extent that the cost of restoring them to the state in which they were before the occurrence of the damage would exceed the value when restored. In other words, the Government, as the Bill stands, can take a man's home, do wanton damage to it, build excrescences or additions which may make it useless as a private residence, and, when the emergency is over, instead of rehabilitating it, can acquire it at the 1939 price—
  Lieut.-Colonel Dower: The Chancellor definitely said that he would take care to omit that.
  Sir G. Jeffreys: Yes, he said that, but I wish to emphasise that until it is definitely omitted this is a very bad Clause. My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton quoted the case of a house 'within his knowledge. I would like to quote one within my knowledge. It is a country house, which was taken over as a Civil Defence training establishment. An immense amount of money was spent upon it. Shortly after the Civil Defence had taken it over, it was found that the water supply, which was perfectly adequate for a private house with a limited number of inhabitants, was quite inadequate when there were 200 people in the house. Huts were built near the house, and semipermanent additions were built on to the house for extra kitchens, canteens and so forth. The garage was turned into a cinema, at great expense. A great deal of money was spent on the water supply which might be considered to be an improvement, but for this sort of private house is no improvement. There was an adequate water supply before, and to put a water supply for 200 people into a house which, in normal times, is not meant to accommodate more than about
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  one-tenth of that number, is, to my mind, entirely unnecessary. For the purpose of training Civil Defence rescue parties it was thought right to create a model ruined village and, by contract, lorries from Southampton—which was a considerable distance away—brought large quantities of broken bricks, stone and rubble, and within 100 yards of the house there was created a series of ruined houses in which cellars were dug. No doubt that was useful for training the rescue parties, but it will cost a great deal of money to take those ruins away, and if a Clause such as this is to be taken advantage of by the Government, who could say that the cost of restoring the house and garden to the condition in which it was before it was taken over would be more than it is worth, then it will be a very serious state of affairs.
  A common in my part of the world has been taken over for an aerodrome. To restore it to a state in which it would be of any use to the public, involving the removal of acres of concrete, would be a very expensive procedure. I hope it will be undertaken but it should, be clearly stated in the Bill that in such cases the land will be restored, that no lump sum will be given to the local authority or anyone else, but that the Government will do it with their own labour, their own machinery and their own priorities. There is another common on which armoured forces were trained. The constant pressure of tracked vehicles consolidated the soil and formed a hard pan some inches below the surface, with the result that the natural vegetation, such as it was, was very greatly interfered with and was dying away and, worst of all, the porousness of the soil was completely upset and adjacent buildings have been flooded by the rain, which was unable to get away, rushing over the land. I quote that as another case in which there would be a very considerable bill for restoring the drainage, which will be a difficult thing. The land at present is not only not much use to the public but is positively a menace to a considerable number of people who live at the bottom of the hill close to it.
  Clause 47 is another bright spot in the Bill, but even that ought to be to some extent amended. It lays down that "if in the opinion of a Minister, it is expedient in the public interest that the land should be dealt with in a particular manner. the Minister may undertake,"

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  and so forth. I submit that "the Commission" should be substituted for "the Minister" and the word "shall" should be substituted by the word "may." In spite of the concessions, which we all welcome, and my right hon. Friend's conciliatory tone, which we immensely appreciate, the Bill is still so complicated and difficult of comprehension that it is really incapable of satisfactory Amendment. It would be better to withdraw it and completely recast it, embodying the improvements to which the Chancellor adverted.
  2.34 p.m.
  Mr. Graham White: The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken said, in a speech which everyone who heard it will agree was able, exceedingly able, made what seemed a somewhat ambitious claim. He said that he hoped to express the opinion of the people with regard to the Bill and those parts of it which seemed designed to perpetuate desecration of the countryside, brought about under duress of war, when he spoke of the desire to save the country from this situation and of the sentiment of the people towards the growing desire of those not familiar with the countryside to preserve what I think Robert Lynd described in very touching language as the common heritage of the beauty of the countryside, saying "the land belongs to someone but the landscape is everybody's." When the hon. and gallant Member spoke in those terms he was speaking the voice of the country, and it is for that reason that his speech met with so much agreement. Here we have a Bill presented to the House for financial reasons, for the purpose of preserving our finance, for compensation and for purposes connected therewith. It is a Bill one would hesitate to criticise, which it is no pleasing task to criticise. When we have a Bill like that presented to Parliament it is a strange thing that no single voice has been raised in its favour, nor has any pen been put to paper in support of it.
  I have been at some pains to have the Bill examined and to find out the state of opinion with regard to it. The people of this country have stood in war whatever they were asked to do. They have seen without murmur or complaint places in which they have passed their existence, the background of their existence, built
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  over and disturbed, believing that these places would be restored. It may be that those who work in the Treasury and in Government Departments may have been misled by the acquiescence of the people in this matter in war time; because, as they proceeded to their work in the morning and returned home at night, they have seen on one of the most historic sites in this country, one of the most beautiful pieces of parkland, a tawny monster of immense size and strength, a building described as a temporary structure but made of such material that no known human agency can possibly destroy it. It may well be that those who have been engaged on the Bill, seeing this monstrosity put on that great historic site in a beautiful position, may have said, "The people will stand anything, we can do what we like." Again, it is no bad thing that there should be some memorials of this war, but we do not want to spread them regardless all over the country. It is no bad thing, and indeed this generation of English men and women who have been scarred and seared physically and spiritually are not likely to forget war and its consequences, but with regard to that building I have just mentioned I should hope that it will remain. I think it will always he a suitable momento of a horrible period in our history, and if that were embellished with suitable statues of Hitler, Mussolini, Pierre Laval, "Lord Haw-Haw" and others whose names will readily occur to hon. Members, it might well serve as a permanent monument and a warning for all time against the horrors of war.
  The financial object of the Bill has the purpose of saving the State money and securing something like orderly procedure with regard to the immense works which have been constructed. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said £700,000,000 in all had been expended, and of this sum about £6o,000,000 or £70,0oo,000 on actual factories. He did not tell us what was the actual amount of land included. I understand that the Treasury have no information on that point. They do not know what the extent of the national asset is, but, in order that there may be some orderly development in these things, we recognise that there should be a Bill. It may well be that these things, the objects of the Bill, can be done without injustice, and without doing permanent injury to the long-term interest of the British

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  people. All I can say is that the terms on which this can be done are not in this Bill. I came here to say that it was a disorderly Bill, retrogressive in character, and should be condemned. I find myself at the moment in the same state as the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite. We do not quite know where we stand. I was going to suggest that it might be a good thing if the discussion of the Bill were regarded not so much as a discussion on a Bill as a discussion on a White Paper, and that the Government should adopt the procedure followed in other respects with great success—take it away again in the light of the opinions that have been expressed and bring back a Bill which would be simpler to understand and, at least, let us know what the actual purposes of the Government were. I am inclined, on the whole, still to think that that might be the best procedure. I do not think any Parliamentary time would be lost by it. Indeed, it might facilitate the business of the House. I make the suggestion for what it may be worth.
  Hon. Members who have preceded me have spoken in some detail about various aspects of the Bill and of some of its provisions, about the special position of the Board of Trade and of the Minister of Town and Country Planning, who is not able to be in his place during the discussion of a Bill which vitally affects all his plans and responsibilities in very great detail. My own feeling as an orderly Member of the House of Commons is that it is definitely contrary to the trend of legislation which the people of the country and the House of Commons have been setting their minds on since the early days of the war, namely, a determination to take thought for tomorrow and to secure the orderly development of our affairs. It has taken us ten years in Parliament to decide to get rid of that chaotic process by which a whole series of Ministers acting in compartments concentrated their attention on the subject of social insurance in such a way as to develop a system in which it was possible to have five or six means tests operating in one household for very much the same purpose. That we have got rid of. We have been giving our minds to town and country planning. We have appointed a Commission to consider the utilisation of rural land and the loca-
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  tion of industry. They have done all these things hoping to plan our future in co-ordination and good order.
  But to-day we come to this disorderly incursion into the trend of thought and legislative purpose. On no ground except the general ground of its purpose has anyone been able to find any reason for the Bill at all. It is for that reason that it seems to me the Bill is a mistake. I do not think the word "disorderly" is at all too strong. It is contrary to our national sentiment and the current trend of thought. There has been a great feeling aroused with regard to the rights of commoners, the closing of rights of way, the despoiling of natural parks, in the minds of all lovers of countryside, by the display of advertising. An important discussion took place within the last fortnight, and the Minister of Reconstruction, speaking in another place, said he welcomed the Motion on that subject but that it did not go far enough, or words to that effect.
  What will be the effect of this Bill on public opinion? The Bill is misplaced. I will not detain the House by dealing with any special aspect of the Bill. The Chancellor has made some important concessions or suggestions and has given certain undertakings. We would like to consider them. Some of them seem to go a very long way. We would like to consider the absence from the Bill of any right of entry for the Minister of Town and Country Planning, who is only indirectly referred to, and also the position of the Minister of Agriculture. There is also no right of representation of interested parties who are concerned with the preservation of commons and the countryside, such as ramblers' associations, who have been so active in this matter because they are deeply moved. I freely recognise the ability with which my right hon. Friend has dealt with these far-reaching proposals and met the views which have been expressed, but I still think that it would save Parliamentary time if the Bill were treated as a White Paper and were re-introduced with the proposals of the Chancellor embodied in it.
  2.47 p.m.
  Brigadier-General Clifton Brown: I agree very much with my hon. Friends who moved and seconded the Amendment. I think that this Bill has

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  been introduced in the. wrong way. Everyone admits the necessity of liquidating some of the commitments which the Government have necessarily had to make during the war, but I am sure the Chancellor will agree that the people who have been hurt perhaps more than anyone else are those who are contented in country life, such as landowners and farmers, and local authorities who own common land and have spent money and time in developing it. They are the people who will in so many cases suffer very seriously through this Bill. It is very difficult to argue about this Bill because the Chancellor has given us. different variations of what his intentions are, and they seem to me to be quite different from what is in the Bill. I am reminded of the old saying about good intentions leading us to a place where we do not want to go. We have to argue our points on the Bill as it is written. As it is written, there are a great many injustices in it which affect many classes, especially in the country.
  I suppose that Berkshire is one of the most beautiful counties in England. [Interruption.] At all events, the commons in Berkshire are more numerous and beautiful than in most counties, and the people of the county are very interested in keeping them as beauty spots. The Berkshire County Council have three criticisms to make of this Bill. They consider, first, that insufficient regard has been paid to any public interest other than that of finance. That is a very common criticism and the Chancellor should particularly look into it. When we come to a question of altering the whole outlook in the English countryside, there are a great many other points of view besides that of finance from which it should be regarded. The Chancellor said at the beginning of his speech that the Bill fulfilled all three points, but the Attorney-General will agree that when we come to deal with land and land legislation, there are not three points, but more like thirty-three which have to be considered. This Bill will interfere with various Acts dealing with land which have not been thought of, and in many of the cases that have been and will be brought forward the Bill will do nothing except to make things worse.
  I agree with the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White), that a White
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  Paper should first have been brought in, and other Ministries should have been consulted beside the Treasury and the three Service Ministries. As an old soldier, I know what it means for the Army to be dumped down on a place. They have not much idea of production, but only of destruction. They dig trenches and knock down walls in trying out their new mechanical contrivances. It is always destruction, as is shown in dozens of places in the countryside. There is no one on the proposed Commission who will represent the town and country planning interests or agriculture or any of the different aspects of the countryside. I should like to read a little letter from the Mayor of Newbury, which appeared in "The Times," about one of the most beautiful commons in Berkshire, comprising 88o acres just outside the town, in which he said:
  "During the war the whole of the land (together with a large area adjoining) has been requisitioned and an aerodrome, with numerous buildings and runways, constructed thereon. Unless the land is returned to the council, the public—and particularly the inhabitants of Newbury and district—will loose a common which for countless years has been one of the beauty spots of this part of the country. Some drastic amendment of the Bill is needed to ensure that this kind of thing shall not happen."
  I do not see why the people of Newbury should not be as much entitled to a park and a beauty spot as the people of London with their Hyde Park. Under this Bill, whether it is the intention of the Commission or not, many of the buildings that have been erected at Newbury may be left, and all the time, trouble and money that have been spent to help the workers in the factories at Newbury will have been wasted.
  It is not only the common lands that are affected. I want to consider some of the difficulties of farmers and landowners of neighbouring lands. Clause 5 (2) talks about giving power to the Government to take neighbouring lands. Whatever the Chancellor says his intentions are, I would like to get this clear. There are many farmers, both little and big, occupying land outside commons and aerodromes, who are threatened by this Measure. They want to make their plans now, and, as soon as they are allowed to get the material, to carry out work on water and electricity supplies in order to bring their farms up-to-date. I have a pathetic letter from an owner near one

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  aerodrome who is in this position. The position under this Bill of land outside aerodromes will make it impossible for the farmers and owners to produce for the next two or three years. How long are Government officials going to be in making up their minds whether they want to take neighbouring land? In the meantime, all such land will go derelict after four years of hard work on the part of farmers and owners in trying to keep it up. This Bill will hinder production just at a time when the whole of Europe wants more food grown here.
  The second point of objection which the Berkshire Council Council put forward is that the proposal to constitute the Commission in the manner proposed by the Bill is not calculated to command confidence in its complete impartiality and independence. I have already referred to this point, but I think it is a matter of vital importance that we should have a Commission on which are represented agricultural as well as town and country planning interests. Otherwise, it will do more harm than good. We have also to remember such industries as forestry. There are quite a number of places where the Government have camps in forests, and if they are not removed it will very much hinder forestry, which we want to encourage, because it will give employment to many men who come back from the war and because the industry is of vital importance to the future of the country. The third objection of the Berkshire County Council is that there should be more secure Parliamentary control over the powers to acquire land, especially land which is subject to agreements or restrictive covenants entered into or imposed in the public interests, and that any proposal to acquire such land or to release it from such agreements or covenants should, if objected to, proceed only if approved by Parliament. When public authorities, such as local authorities and Electricity Commissioners, want to do certain things which affect public rights, there has to be a public inquiry and the matter may go upstairs through the Private Bill procedure. Any person who objects has a right of stating his objection and having it properly heard and considered. The matter then comes down to the House and can be discussed. I know that it is a lengthy procedure, but when binding legal covenants, such as
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  settlements and trusts, are to be interfered with, the best way to deal with them is by some such procedure as that of our Private Bill legislation.
  In war-time such legislation as this might very likely be necessary, but this is a peace-time Measure, and it is wholly unfair and unjust in peace-time to impose war-time restrictions and commitments on those who have already suffered a great deal to help the country through, and who have done so without any grumbling and have been only too glad to do it. If the Government want to build in peacetime a happier and more contented England, they would do better to encourage landowners and farmers to produce, and not to hinder them by destroying their freedom of action as this Bill will do. If the Government want to keep the character of the people in the countryside and keep faith with the local authorities who are owners of common rights, if they want to enable workers in the factories to have beautiful places to go to near their homes, they must do more to preserve amenities than this Bill does and have on the Commission representation of the Minister of Town and Country Planning. I look upon the Bill as a Fascist Measure, and I would ask the Chancellor to withdraw it and replace it with one which gives more freedom to the individual.
  3.0 p.m.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: The Bill has met with a good deal of criticism from more quarters than one. The only criticism with which I am not in agreement, is the demand that the Bill should be made simpler and more intelligible to the ordinary man because I think it is asking for more than can reasonably be required. It is impossible to legislate about land in such a way as not to arouse passionate feeling and to avoid complication. Land affects the activities of the country at every stage, and the complication of the subject is due to the fact that the human society upon the land is immensely complicated in structure. Apart from this the criticisms which have been put forward are largely well-founded. I could have regretted that it was not possible at an earlier stage to withdraw the Bill for recasting, as the Committee stage might then have been considerably shorter, and a great deal of the feeling which has been engendered by the way in

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  which the Measure has been presented to the House might have been avoided.
  Nevertheless, I could not help feeling, as the Chancellor spoke this morning and as we heard the various learned and eloquent speeches that were made after him, that the gulf separating him from his critics had grown smaller as a result of what was said. I think he convinced us of one thing; he showed that his heart is in the right place. It is true that that is not quite enough. He persuaded us that his conception of public policy is the right conception, but very difficult questions of application and of drafting must arise in regard to the Bill. We must not, every time we pass a Bill, erect two systems of law, one which has to he applied by the courts and is contained in the Measure as printed, and the other contained in a jungle of assurances, concessions, interpretations and Ministerial directions which give a totally different complexion to the legal instrument. It is not that we doubt that the Chancellor will keep his word or fear that a Chancellor of another party complexion will greatly misuse his powers but that it is a fundamental principle of good legislation that it should say what it means, and mean what it says. Nothing short of drastic amendment in Committee stage will be required if we are to put into the Bill words embodying the assurances which we have received.
  The Bill is rather like a bad novel. Having got to the point on the last page of the book where the hero is united with a totally unsuitable partner for life, most of us then want to know what he is going to do when he leaves the church. This is a Bill for the public acquisition of land and rights in land. One thing that the Bill does not say is what is going to be clone with the land when it is acquired. Some of it, we learned from the Chancellor, is to be disposed of, some of it to be used and some kept. I cannot help agreeing whole-heartedly with the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) that a White Paper ought to have accompanied the introduction of the Bill telling us the policy which was to be pursued after the Bill had been agreed to by Parliament. Otherwise we are being asked to agree to something very much in the nature of a blank cheque.
  In the Committee stage we shall insist on the insertion of words to give greater precision to the circumstances which ought
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  to weigh with the Government in the exercise of their powers, and which must affect the Commission in the control they will exercise over the proceedings of the Government. It was not altogether reasonable for the Chancellor to complain of the very wide feeling of dissatisfaction at the weight which appears to have been given in the Bill to the purely financial aspect of the matter. The complaint has arisen spontaneously in many different quarters, and drastic amendment will be required if the complaint is to be wholly removed. Take, for instance, only the complaint of the Council for the Preservation of Rural England. Their general comment is that the Bill, coming from the Treasury, is designed to make as much money and, to save as much money as possible in respect of lands requisitioned for purposes arising out of the prosecution of the war. It seems to find its reflection in the language of the Bill. It is not only that the Commission is to be appointed by the Treasury on such terms as the Treasury may think fit and without further definition, but that when one looks at the circumstances in which land may be acquired and at the principles on which the Commission may act, one finds a totally disproportionate weight attached in the language of the Bill to purely financial considerations.
  Clause II appears to be the governing Clause. It says:
  "The Commission, in considering any proposals referred to them, shall have regard to all relevant considerations and, subject to the provisions of this Section, shall recommend what in their opinion is in all the circumstances reasonable."
  The provisions of "this Section" thereupon set out the various considerations to which particular regard shall be had in any particular case. In the first of these we find the cost of the works coming first, the financial advantage which would accrue coming second, aril the degree of loss or hardship coming third. I cannot but believe that, properly construed, the effect of that provision would be to subordinate the general phrase "all relevant considerations" to the particular phrases which the relevant Sub-sections introduce. Whether or not that be so, and whether that was what the Government intended or not, I believe the House will demand a much more precise and clear statement from the Government in regard to the language which is ultimately to appear in the Measure.

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  What should our dominant consideration be? It is true that the financial aspect is legitimate and important, but it must be subordinate to the public interest in the broadest possible sense. It must take into account the location of industry and the preservation of amenities, as well as the need for the restoration of agricultural land to its pre-war state of productivity. It must also remember the rights of the public in the enjoyment of open spaces and commons, and of features of national beauty. I believe that this House will demand that Clause II should be drastically amended so as to include language of that kind. I believe it will also demand that, where commons are acquired, a totally new procedure will be necessary before the House will give the Bill its Third Reading.
  I turn to one or two considerations about the composition and powers of the Commission. I thought that the Chancellor did not wholly understand the criticisms when he suggested that the complaint against the Commission was simply that all commissions appointed by the Treasury were subordinate to Government control. Of course, that is not so. The Treasury appoints Commissions for various legitimate purposes. The broad point is that this is not a Commission of the kind which is used by the Government to inquire into questions of fact which might legitimately be considered an instrument of the Executive. It is to be a quasijudicial body, and, therefore, in our opinion, it should be under the patronage of the Lord Chancellor. According to our Constitution, the Lord Chancellor is the proper vehicle of judicial patronage, because he is the bridge between the Executive and the judiciary.
  We go further. We do not believe it is sufficient to ask Parliament to state, in broad terms, that the Commission should consist of a chairman, and such other members as the Treasury may think expedient and for such a term as the Treasury may determine, without further definition. Words should be added to the Bill which indicate broadly the kind of experience which shall be demanded, and will be represented on the Commission when set up. As regards their authority, I must confess I was much attracted originally by the proposal put forward by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Petersfield (Sir G. Jeffreys) that the decision of the
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  Commission should be in all circumstances final, but on consideration I cannot go as far as that. Questions of town planning and location of industry, which will undoubtedly come within the purview of the Commission, must affect national policy, and therefore must ultimately be within the control of this House. We shall insist that the Minister shall not be free to override the Commission and simply report to this House without a provision in the Bill whereby some Resolution of this House will ultimately be the determining factor.
  Finally, there was a great deal of force in the point put by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton). The powers of the Secretary of State for Air, and it may be other Defence Ministers, are too wide, independently of the Bill, to escape further definition within the scope of the Bill. If we are going to set up this elaborate machinery with the kind of safeguard which is either in the Bill or which we shall put in before the Third Reading, we must demand, when a suitable case arises, that that machinery shall be used. My hon. Friend said that the Secretary of State for Air would be under no obligation to use it at all, his powers going well outside the ambit of defence and covering airfields required for civil aviation. We should get some assurance that where an airfield has been requisitioned by the Secretary of State for Air it will not first be brought under Section 26 of the Air Navigation Act, and then disposed of to some speculative aerodrome proprietor, without regard to the provisions of this Bill.
  These criticisms appear to me to present a formidable indictment of this Bill. I am not myself without hope that, on the Committee stage, these criticisms can be removed by drastic Amendments. I do not want it to be thought that we are seeking to refuse the Government power for the speedy restoration of this country to a decent and orderly aspect after the war. I certainly shall not oppose the Second Reading, but equally I hope that the Government will show themselves as conciliatory on the Committee stage, when we come to alter the phraseology of the Bill, as they have shown themselves generous in assurances when they were asking for a Second Reading.
  3.16 p.m.
  Mr. Moelwyn Hughes: I am one of those who do not believe that

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  this Bill requires any very drastic amendment at all, after the Chancellor's explanation. This Bill is founded on a principle, in which I and my colleagues wholeheartedly believe, the principle that when public money has been expended upon the improvement of property, as far as possible, the benefit of that improvement should inure to the public who provided the funds.
  Mr. Colegate: What about the deterioration?
  Mr. Hughes: The major aspect is in relation to improvements. As the Chancellor said this morning, we are not concerned with defence works, and it is in the sphere of defence works that most of the deterioration is found. Where the community has acquired, under acquisition, a piece of land worth £20,000, and has erected upon it a factory at a cost of £500,000, without a Bill of this kind, when the powers of requisitioning cease, arid the land must be returned, the fortunate owner of the land will be presented with a factory worth £500,000. Surely there is no one on either side of this Chamber who will differ from the view that some legislation is necessary to deal with a situation of that kind. With that as its basis, I wholeheartedly support the Bill. But I also have some suggestions to offer for its improvement, not in the direction which has been indicated from the other side, but in the direction of making more land acquirable for public use than will be acquirable under the terms of the Bill as they now are, and within the limitations laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  The procedure under the Bill is that acquisition is imposed upon requisition by the requisitioning Minister. The hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) has referred to the needs of agriculture. We have in this country literally hundreds of aerodromes, most of them built by using good agricultural land. When this Bill comes into operation, the question will arise of restoring these aerodromes for agricultural purposes. Who is the Minister charged with the duty—I beg the pardon of the House—not charged with any duty, but given the power, if he thinks fit, to acquire the land on which the aerodrome is built? Is it the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries? He knows what could be done with the land if it were restored; he knows the best use to
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  which it could be put, he knows the form in which it should be restored to agriculture. But he does not appear in the Bill at all. He is not mentioned in the Clauses; his name does not appear on the back of the Bill. And yet, in the course of this war, under the powers of requisitioning and otherwise, we have taken something like 800,000 acres of agricultural land out of use.
  The authority which is to decide about this matter is the Secretary of State for Air. With all respect to the right hon. Gentleman, I would ask, What does he know about agriculture, except that possibly between the huts upon his aerodromes there are a few rows of potatoes and cabbages, and that under his aegis various other forms of agricultural activity are carried on? I suggest to the House that he is not the right authority to decide whether and how the land of these aerodromes should be restored to agriculture. And we shall need these acres after the war. In the century which, in this country, saw the biggest advance that agriculture has ever seen, in the 18th century, all the enormous advances made under the guidance of "Turnip" Townsend and Coke of Norfolk, when agriculture was going up by leaps and bounds, it took a whole century to add 2,000,000 acres to the agricultural land of this country, and in five years the amount of agricultural land that has been taken out of use—
  The Attorney-General (Sir Donald Somervell): A figure has been mentioned both by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Petersfield (Sir G. Jeffreys) and my hon. and learned Friend who is now speaking, with regard to the land under aerodromes. Those figures are very much in excess of reality. The figure is more in the neighbourhood of 300,000 acres. I thought my hon, and learned Friend would like to know.
  Mr. Hughes: I certainly accept the figures given by the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but the figure of 800,000 acres which I gave earlier was not limited to aerodromes. It was the total amount of agricultural land which has been taken for war purposes. I propose to deal with some of the other types of land later, but 300,000 acres for aerodromes is a very serious figure in itself.
  Just look at the possibilities. Nobody in his senses would imagine that the right

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  thing to do with an aerodrome, when its use has ceased, is to hand it back, marked out in white lines, with fields, paddocks, coppices and lanes as they were before it was requisitioned. Here is a large area of land which has been cleared and drained. It requires, in the first place, restoration to its condition of agricultural land, and we have the assurance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer this morning that it is the intention of the Government to use their powers to restore such land, and that indeed is the only possible solution. It is no use handing it back as it is. It will require the same vast machinery of bull-dozers and other equipment to tear up these concrete runways, as it took to build them. The land must be restored, and I accept the Government's assurance that when the aerodromes are not needed any more the land will, in fact, be duly restored. Having restored it, here we have a large area of drained and excellent land. We are giving power to the Minister—why should it not be, I suggest to the House, a duty upon the Minister—to acquire such a magnificent piece of, land. What an opportunity to experiment in large scale farming, an experiment which this House has once approved, and which would have been in operation to-day had not another place taken a different view from this House upon the matter. Here are great opportunities, and the possibility of using them is not sufficiently emphasised in the Bill we are considering.
  Let us turn to other possibilities. Take the case of other land. The Chancellor of the Exchequer mentioned this morning with pride the protection that was given to dwelling houses. We on this side of the House will join with him wholeheartedly in seeking to protect the interests of those who dwell in the houses. As the Bill now stands, the protection for dwelling houses extends for the benefit not only of those who dwell in them, but those who own them as well. For my part, I am not prepared to see the special position afforded to the dwelling house extended to those who do not dwell in them. Let me take two types. Take the houses that were requisitioned for A.R.P. and other purposes in London in the early days of the war. A great many of them were, in fact, large dwelling houses, but nobody was living in them. They were too big for the tastes at that time. They were
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  waiting for a favourable opportunity to be turned into flats, or for restrictive covenants to be lifted to enable businesses to go there, and the A.R.P. service took them over for offices. Under the Bill as it now is, the owner can go along and say, "This was a dwelling house, and I want the special position given under the Bill to dwelling houses." There ought to be protection against that kind of imposition.
  Take the other type. The Bill refers to dwelling houses and the lands round them, and to parks. Why should parks be specifically mentioned—not the kind of parks to which the public go; it is the parks from which the public are excluded which are mentioned in this Bill? A great many of the large houses of the countryside have, in the course of the war, been requisitioned in order to provide camps. The old houses themselves are ideal places for the regimental headquarters and the officers' mess, and the adjacent parkland provides useful ground for the hutments. Why is it that large houses of this kind, that were scarcely lived in at all, that were falling to pieces, should secure special protection under this Bill?
  I know that the Minister of Education would be only too glad to have many of them as summer camps and summer schools. There are already two difficulties: the protection of the alleged dwelling house, and the fact that the authority to acquire requisitioned property is the Secretary of State for War, and not the Minister of Education. There is nothing in the Bill to enable the Minister of Education to set the machinery in motion. I suggest that another way in which this Bill can be improved for the acquisition of requisitioned land for public purposes is to qualify the definition of a dwelling house.
  There has been considerable comment upon the composition of the Commission which is to adjudicate upon the claims of the various Ministers who acquire land. I agree with the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) that their terms of reference are not specific enough. We on this side believe also that their composition is not suitable to ensure that other considerations than financial ones are sufficiently borne in mind. But their composition is clear. I am glad to see that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ilford (Mr. G. Hutchinson) is in his place, because I

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  should like to take tins opportunity to cure some of the misapprehensions that he must have unwittingly created in the public mind in a contribution of his to the columns of the national newspaper "The Times." He went out of his way to point out to his colleagues on that side that they had better not be too critical of this Bill, because they would find in it a Commission which had been given more powers, by implication, to prevent the public acquisition of land than has been given to inquiring bodies under other similar forms of legislation. But he quite misled the readers of "The Times" in discussing what their function was. He compared their function with that of an inquiry held—as they used to be held before the war—by the Minister of Health, into town and country planning provisions. He said:
  "Parliament would do well to insist in every case on the right of an owner of property sought to be compulsorily acquired, whether large or small, to a proper judicial determination of his case, such as that which this Bill seems to contemplate."
  Mr. Geoffrey Hutchinson: Does my hon. and learned Friend object to that statement?
  Mr. Hughes: I certainly do; and so, I think, will other Members when I have explained to them what exactly is the function of a tribunal of inquiry in relation to such matters as town and country planning. This House saw fit to pass, more than once, Acts to secure that the towns of this country should be properly planned. It authorised local planning bodies, popularly elected, responsible to their electorates, to look into all the circumstances, and to prepare proper plans for the development of their areas. That having been done, Parliament said, "These plans shall become law if they are approved by the Minister, and if there are objections the Minister shall have regard to those objections."
  What does the Minister do? He has the plan brought before him by the local authority. There are objections. He goes down himself—that is what it amounts to, although in fact he sends an inspector on his behaIf—and, with the plan in front of him and the objectors before him, he sees whether the plan is one that he can approve. The Minister is not on his trial: the planning authority is not in the dock. The Minister is carrying out the functions enjoined upon him
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  by Parliament. To suggest—and this is what would happen if the principle set out by the hon. and learned Member were followed—Ahat every planning scheme, or scheme for the acquisition of a site for a school, is to be subject to some form of judicial inquiry, would, I have no doubt, please the hon. and learned Member, and would, I have no doubt, please most Members on the other side of the House, because it would mean the hamstringing of the whole plan. It would hang it up indefinitely. That is precisely what is being sought in this Debate by hon. Members on the other side. The protests about commons and footpaths, and all the complications that are raised, are, in essence, I am sure, nothing but seizing a grand opportunity to try to prevent the passage of a Bill which achieves the magnificent objective of bringing more of the land of this country under the control of the people of this country.
  3.38 p.m.
  Major Sir George Davies: I suppose it is a long time since a Bill was presented to this House which aroused so much criticism, anxiety, and apprehension, not only inside the House, but in wide circles outside. In the very b ingratiating speech of the Chancellor so much was admitted, because he made in prospect so many concessions to those criticisms, to those anxieties, and to those apprehensions. Many of my fellow-Members have come down to-day prepared to debate what is in this Bill, and, having listened to the Chancellor, with his indications of how much shall be modified or taken out of the Bill, they find it difficult to deliver the speeches over which they have spent so much time and care. It has been suggested by the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) that it might have been desirable either to regard this Bill as a White Paper or to follow the White Paper technique, so often adopted by the Government recently, and get the general feeling of the House before the Government were committed to the introduction of a Bill for Second Reading. I believe that this Bill was not by any means the first draft presented to the Government for consideration, and that this Bill has met with their final approval. Therefore, it would probably be useless to add to those appeals which have already been made, that the Government should withdraw this Bill, and think again, in the light of the

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  criticisms made in the Debate, and particularly in the light of the concessions adumbrated by the Chancellor.
  There is no doubt, even with those proposals which he says may be made in Committee, that this Bill, if it is to receive the general approbation of this House, will have to be very drastically amended. The ordinary Amendments of a Bill on the Committee stage are generally matters of detail, of greater or lesser importance, but here it seems to me—and I am reinforced by some of the indications given by the Chancellor—there will have to be major surgical operations. That seems to reinforce the plea for a reconsideration and the incorporation of those Amendments which the Government propose to make, so that we may have a coherent Measure, embodying their second thoughts. That is, however, probably too much to expect; so we are faced with the Second Reading today. It would be ungracious not to admit that the Chancellor has made many concessions, Therefore, I have no doubt that the Bill will have, if not an unopposed, at least a nearly unopposed, Second Reading. For myself, I do not propose to go into tie Lobby against it. But just hearing what the Chancellor has had to say to us is not quite the same thing as studying those proposals in black and white. It is difficult to imagine exactly what those proposed changes mean. But I should not like the Chancellor to imagine that, because he may get an unopposed, or practically unopposed, Second Reading, that means that those criticisms, anxieties, and apprehensions of which I have spoken have been altogether relieved, and that he is going to have an easy passage for this Bill through the Committee stage. That is another argument in favour of reconsideration, and of not pressing this Measure in its present form.
  I was saying that a good many of the criticisms and speeches which have been prepared for the Debate have been rather interfered with by the speech of the Chancellor. I would like to concentrate on three considerations, with regard to the future amendment of this Bill or of those features of it which, even if amended along the lines which the Chancellor indicated, do not, to me at any rate, give complete satisfaction. First, I will speak of the composition, the powers, and the
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  terms of reference of the proposed Commission. The Chancellor has argued why it is desirable that this should be a Treasury-appointed Commission. I find his arguments unconvincing. It may be quite true that there is no intention that the Treasury should override anything, but I want to emphasise, in one or two minutes, that the provision for the Treasury to appoint this Commission is symptomatic of the atmosphere which runs through the whole of this Bill—that is, that the economic considerations are more important than those of justice and fair play.
  It has been suggested, with good argument, by my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) that the Lord Chancellor is the proper person to appoint anyhow the chairman of this Commission. I would like to endorse that suggestion, because I believe that that is the very thing which is not going to cause a great deal of difficulty, but which will allay a very great deal of this apprehension which is so widespread. The Chancellor himself has indicated that he was prepared to widen very much the personnel of the Commission. A great deal of the criticism was concentrated on the complete omission of the Ministers of Town and Country Planning and Agriculture, and, though the Chancellor has indicated that it was an omission, I would ask why it needed a Second Reading speech by a Minister of the Crown to find out that it was an omission. Surely it should have been known before this Measure was presented to us? It is only reasonable that those who are concerned with these important considerations of the user of land should be disturbed at the provisions which they find actually in the Bill.
  With regard to powers, no doubt, in the majority of cases, the decisions of this Commission will be final. I myself believe that the decisions of the Commission should be such as will arouse a complete sense of trust and confidence in the country and a feeling that the personnel of the Commission can be relied upon to give a correct and final decision. I think it would be most objectionable if the decisions of the Commission could be overridden, as it were, by the Minister of any one, Department. If the findings of the Commission are considered by the Government, or by any Department of it, to be inconsistent with the interests of the

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  nation as a whole, particularly from the point of view of defence, then, surely, in some form—and I do not think the form of a Prayer, which really looks all right on paper but very seldom works out, is suitable—the Government should bring the matter to this House of Commons, which, as the Chancellor himself has said, is the final court of appeal. They could put their case to us, on any occasion when they thought the Commission had erred, and ask the House of Commons to give them authority to override that decision. This procedure would get rid of a large amount of the anxiety now felt. In regard to the terms of reference, the Chancellor has already indicated that they could be widened, and they surely should be, to include all these particular matters to which I have alluded and which have caused so much distress to people who think that so many interests which should be vital have been overlooked.
  That is my first objection to the Bill. The second, which I have touched upon, is the provision that there can be an overriding decision by Government Departments. I do not press that matter now, because it is covered in what I have already said, but it is necessary that something should be put into the Bill to allay these fears. My third and final point is that this Bill smacks of a cheeseparing economy. Although the Government assure us that that is not the case, it looks as if the main consideration had been how to save the State money in various directions in compensation which it would normally be incumbent upon the State to find. It is true that we here in this House of Commons are the guardians of the national purse, but we are also guardians of something which, I think, is of infinitely greater importance. This old country of ours is carrying the scars of years of war, many inflicted by the enemy and many inflicted by ourselves owing to the exigent demands of war time. It is up to us, as trustees of that heritage, to do all that we can to eliminate those scars and replace the conditions that existed before; to do what is right and proper, even if it costs money; to reinstate those rights and privileges which our people have uncomplainingly given up, because they felt that every effort should be made to bring the war to a successful conclusion. That principle, I maintain, and not the economic one,
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  should be the thread upon which this Bill hangs; otherwise, we shall find ourselves selling our heritage for a mess of pottage.
  3.51 p.m.
  Lady Apsley: I will not detain the House for long, for I appreciate that a large number of Members wish to speak on this highly controversial but very important Measure. Many hon. Members who have already spoken have criticised this Bill from the point of view of agriculture, and, though I endorse nine-tenths of what they said from the point of view of the countrymen and the countryside, I would like to say a few words from the equally important point of view of the townspeople. With due respect to the hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hughes), who spoke as if this Measure was. opposed because it was getting in the way of private interest, I would like to point out that the great populations in the towns are rightly concerned about what is going to happen in future to the countryside, which is daily, from their point of view, getting smaller and smaller. They feel very strongly that rights of way, access to mountains and other remaining rights in the countryside will be very severely curtailed if this Bill goes through in its present state.
  I have a letter here from a ramblers' association representing the whole of the West of England, most of whose members are congregated in the towns and who are very seriously perturbed. They have written me a long and carefully considered argument complaining that
  "agriculture and general amenities, public recreation and access have been almost completely omitted from the scope of the Bill. In their narrow terms of reference, we feel that the Commissioners will be at the whim of Service Departments and unable to give, consideration to broad national interests."
  That is what the townspeople fear—that the Commission suggested under the Bill will not give proper consideration to broad national interests, and we have an example, which no one so far has mentioned, practically under our noses in the Slough trading estate. To establish vital war industry, some of the best wheat-growing country in South Bucks was taken arbitrarily during the last war, and, instead of it being given back to agriculture, it was instead included for distribution in a sort of national jumble sale to private enterprise. I believe two or three people went bankrupt because

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  the final effect—that some light industries were arbitrarily brought to the South of England which would have been very much better placed in the Northern part of England where unemployment had became rife. I am sure hon. Members on both sides of the House do not want that sort of thing to happen again after this war.
  Next, I would like to refer to the serious perturbation on the part of townspeople in regard to land belonging to or under the control of local authorities. For the hon. and learned Gentleman who has just spoken for the Labour Party does not appear to appreciate that this Bill refers equally to land requisitioned from public ownership as from private individuals, and of which nothing has been seen in the Press. I refer to the large amount of land requisitioned in the early days of the war and belonging to the city councils, such as is the case in my own constituency, where, being a very up-to-date and modern-minded local authority, they built a large and expensive airport, which was requisitioned at the outbreak of war and on which the Government have erected various buildings. What is going to happen to those buildings at the end of the war? Will the local authority in my constituency have to pay a very high price for them, or will they be put in the market and sold to private enterprise over the head of the local authority? There are other such sites which have been taken over, and we, in my constituency, are greatly concerned about as to what will happen to the Government buildings which have been erected in, for instance, dock areas. The city of Bristol owns its own docks, but Government buildings have been put up during the last four years, and we are much concerned about the cost of betting them back as well as requisitioned buildings and sites.
  In conclusion, on behalf of the people who live in blitzed and blighted cities, I would like to say that we are gravely concerned about what will be the effect of this Measure, which I suggest with respect is a glorified "white elephant sale" and at least may be said to be very arbitrary in the way in which it concerns individuals and the people as a whole. Therefore, I want to associate myself with those hon. Members who are pressing that this Measure should be taken back for further and more detailed consideration.
  3.58 p.m.
  Mr. Price: I think some Measure of this kind is necessary to deal with the existing situation. The question, however, is whether this Bill is able to meet the position. I take the view that the Bill, when certain changes are made, can meet it. I think, however, that it will have to have certain quite important alterations in it in order to meet what is necessary. In general, I think it will be agreed by everyone that the State has the right to dispose of its war-time assets in the best ways possible in the interests of national finance, but that, of course, is not the whole consideration, and my fear is that the Bill does not appear to take any other considerations into account at all. It seems to show a complete lack of imagination. It proceeds as if the Scott and Barlow Reports had never existed at all; as if there was no such thing as a public interest in planning and development of sites. It is pure financial interests and the disposing of property of the State in the best possible way. It savours of utilitarianism and Victorian laissez-faire on almost every page, and the outcry which has been caused in the country by the production of this Bill would not have taken place if these considerations had been thought of and had appeared in the text of the Bill. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has to come to the House and try to explain away certain passages and assure public opinion that it is not as bad as all that.
  The public interest is not solely concerned with war-time assets but is very much concerned with the development and the planning of our cities in future, with industrial zoning, housing and all that. It is possible to consider that all these might be left out of consideration if we take solely as the criterion the disposal of war-time assets in the best possible way. The Noble Lady the Member for Central Bristol (Lady Apsley) has given a very good example from Slough. There are others up and down the country of a similar kind which are a terrible reflection on our lack of understanding of how to preserve the beauties of this country and its amenities. It would have made our far-off ancestors in the 18th century turn in their graves, and it is a terrible reflection on what has happened as a result of 150 years of industrial revolution that we have completely killed all sense

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  of artistic values and amenities. This generation, I hope, is going to do something to try and acquire again the spirit of the 18th Century which made England beautiful and prevented it from becoming ugly, while at the same time allowing a certain degree of economic and industrial development. All these things must be considered.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us that in Clause 11 the words "all relevant considerations" will deal with this and make it possible for amenities, town planning and common rights to be considered. I have read through that Clause carefully since he said that; I may not have a sufficiently legal brain to understand it thoroughly, but I am not satisfied. It does not seem to be enough. We must have in that Clause something much more specific that what is there now. The kind of alteration I wish to see would enable local authorities to continue with their planning without having specific war-time sites or aerodromes disposed of which would cut across their plans. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that it will not be so, but I wish to see it made quite watertight. I agree with the general point of view held by my hon. Friends on these benches and particularly referred to by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. M. Hughes) that the State should have the right to acquire land as and where necessary for public developments. I am not concerned with private interests. A great deal of criticism is directed from the benches opposite in the direction of private interests. I think that they will be well looked after in this Bill—perhaps too much looked after—but I am very much concerned with the public interest. There seems to be provision in the Bill to prevent anything in the nature of profiteering in site values. I take it that compensation will be paid to private owners of these sites on the basis of the 1939 value; somewhere along the lines of the Town and Country Planning Act of last Session which provides that kind of compensation. That Act is not mentioned in this Bill, but I would like whoever replies for the Government to give an assurance that that is going to be the general basis of compensation, so that there will be nothing in the nature of profiteering by private interests out of the war-time activities of the State.
  Again, I agree with the principle of the setting up of the War Works Commission,
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  with power to adjudicate and recommend on the disposal of properties. This Commission is to be a kind of special tribunal with, at least in part, judicial powers. I am also in agreement with the Chancellor's argument that where high policy is involved the last word should not rest with the Commission but with the responsible Government executive. But where there is a purely financial question and no other consideration comes in the Commission might well be allowed to decide and its decision be final. I would not agree to the tribunal deciding on matters of high policy, which it seems some hon. Members opposite wish. That is quite wrong. This House has the right to have the last word, which is again contained in the Bill, either in the form of a Prayer or Resolution. This House can say "Yea" or "Nay." We should strike a reasonable balance between the public interest on the one hand, the rights of the Executive and the rights of this House as the supreme legislature on the other.
  On the whole, the Government seem to have struck the right balance in this, but my criticism is rather over the composition of this Commission. It should not consist only of nominees of the Treasury. The fact that that is in the Bill has been responsible for much of the outcry in the country because it creates an impression that no interests other than financial will be considered, but will be pushed on one side. We want Treasury nominees, most certainly, but others as well, those who will understand not only the interests of the national finances but also consider the preservation of amenities, town and country planning, common rights, and so on. All these should in some way or other be represented upon this Commission. I hope that in Committee the Government will consider this matter.
  Then there comes finally the question of commoners' rights. This is a very serious matter. I know something about this, because my constituency has probably the oldest common rights in England. In the Forest of Dean and the New Forest a large number of people have common grazing rights which extend back to the time of the Norman Kings, and are protected by our Common Law and by various judicial procedures. They cannot be interfered with except under due processes of law. We have a Verderers' Court which hears the claims and rights of the commoners.

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  It all goes back to the time when the Norman Kings used the Dean Forest as a hunting preserve and the commoners were given these rights in order to compensate them for damage done by the King's deer. Those ancient rights are protected. Right through this Bill one would seem to see a complete lack of understanding that these rights exist. Quite likely a site might be sold which had originally a commoners' right on it, and no adequate compensation given. I am not satisfied even now that that will not be the case.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to Clause 26 and said that that would cover common rights. I have read through Clause 26, and I cannot see anything in that except very complicated wording and a good deal of reference to previous Acts, or, in other words, legislation by reference. That, again, is the cause of so much of the outcry in the country. Anyone reading this would not understand it. Common rights are not mentioned. I want to see that very definitely altered and an Amendment along those lines. I hope that it will at least be laid down that where common rights must be extinguished in the public interest, there will be adequate compensation either in cash or in the provision of other grazing rights. That is the law as it stands now. All those who have to deal with the acquisition of land for public purposes know about that, and we of the Forestry Commission know all about it too. If we want to acquire land on which there are common rights, there has to be a full inquiry and if one person objects to the acquisition of the land, the whole thing is held up. I do not want to see these old rights done away with but, at the same time, we must have means by which developments can take place in keeping with modem times. I wish to see this Clause amended in this way.
  Therefore, if the Government will do it—and the Chancellor of the Exchequer has indicated a reasonableness on the part of the Government to meet these criticisms—the Bill should certainly be given a Second Reading. Its general principle is sound and is one which the House must accept, provided always that it avoids any conflict with the needs of to-day, namely, the systematic planning and development of our national heritage.
  4.14 p.m.
  Major Mills: There is much in this Bill in respect of which my right hon. Friend in his speech to-day relieved my mind a great deal, but there is one very important question that I want to put to him or to whoever is replying for the Government. It troubles constituents in the New Forest a great deal, and I am very glad to follow the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) in his speech. The New Forest is Crown property, subject always to the commoners' rights over it. It is also a great national park. Will it be possible under this Bill to purchase compulsorily those commoners' rights, and for the Crown thereafter to sell, or otherwise deal with this land as if it were freehold? It is a big question, because some 7,500 acres at least of the New Forest are affected, and if their alienation from commoners and the public is possible I should be compelled to vote against the Bill unless I could get adequate assurances that this would be put right on the Committee stage. Can the Government answer that question?
  4.16 p.m.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Petersfield (Sir G. Jeffreys) and the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) called attention to the complexity of this Measure. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Yeovil (Sir G. Davies) said that he thought the speeches to-day had been greatly interfered with by the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement. Those two matters are very closely connected. If, in the last three or four weeks, the Press and the public had been made aware of what was in the mind of the Chancellor in regard to this Bill, I think the country might have been saved a great deal of confusion of thought and uncertainty. It is quite true that the speech of the right hon. Gentleman today has gone a long way to allay our fears, but I would like to make a suggestion to the House. It is not an original contribution. I have already heard it canvassed in various quarters. It seems to me that there is a growing case, When we are confronted with these numerous and complex Measures, for the Government's introductory statement on Second Reading—which cannot be seriously and

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  intelligently debated by a workaday House of Commons immediately after it is delivered—to be printed and circulated as an annexe to the Bill when it is presented for a First Reading. That practice has been adopted recently with great success by the chairmen of important public companies before the annual meeting. The shareholders come to the meeting knowing what it is about, and I see no reason why we should not imitate the practice. The real Debate would then begin when the Orders of the Day are called.
  Mr. Mckinlay (Dumbartonshire): We could all leave after lunch.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: The Minister concerned would wind up the discussion, and a great deal of time would be saved. I agree with those hon. Members who have said that a Bill of this kind is necessary. I listened with a great deal of attention to what my hon. Friend the Member of Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) said, and I particularly noted and welcomed his simple and effective description of the war aims of the fighting soldier. I think, however, that those who are opposing this Bill wholesale are in danger of falling into a trap, and the trap is this: It seems to be their fundamental conception that the State can do no right and the individual can do no wrong. They think that the individual is the personification of culture and enlightenment, and that the State is the embodiment of decay and dissolution. They think that factories and their surrounding fields in the hands of the entrepreneur will flourish upon high standards of amenity; and they think that what might be an industrial garden city would, under State acquisition, inevitably be transformed into a wilderness. But that is not so, and the Bill itself—much fault as I shall presently have to find with it—disproves that contention. As the Chancellor pointed out to-day, it is sprinkled with references to the public interest and to considerations of amenity, though I consider those references should be amplified. The Ministers and the Commission are expressly required to observe certain values. The rights of commoners are meant to be safeguarded, though I think the assurances should be made doubly sure, and it is clear from more than one reference in the Bill—notably in Clause 8 (5) and in Clause 10—that acquisition is for the very
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  purpose of facilitating a subsequent sale. Surely the general charge that the land once acquired by the State will be allowed to lie derelict is groundless and, if it is not groundless, then the same charge lies very well against private landlordism.
  Having said that much, I would like to proceed with my criticisms of the Bill, and I will deal first with what might be called the Treasury aspect. The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton said that our country would never stand finance as a governing consideration in its affairs, and I entirely agree with him. It is not only the tribulations of taxation which have imbued people in this country with a hearty and healthy dislike of the Treasury and all its ways, and I say that in spite of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer's kindly and progressive administration at the Treasury. The three public relations officers whom he has appointed might take note of this. The long-standing failure of the Treasury to get its story, if it has a story, across to the public is most marked. In the years before the war, when the Service Departments were sorely in need of a friend at court, the whole weight of Treasury influence was piled into the scales against them. The Treasury was pruning and cutting down long after this House had expressed itself overwhelmingly in favour of a large measure of rearmament, and now in this Bill, at the end of the war—
  Mr. De la Bère: Is the Noble Lord talking about the Bill?
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Yes, I am. In this Bill, at the end of the war, when the entire country wants war works areas to be converted to peace-time use, houses to be restored to their owners, agricultural land to revert to the farming community, and common lands to be reinstated for public enjoyment, the Treasury appears again as a mysterious influence, ranging itself this time with the Fighting Services against the citizen, dominating what ought to be an independent Commission, and infusing this whole Measure with narrow, catch-penny ideas of financial advantage. I think there is an excellent opportunity for the House to teach the Treasury a lesson in public psychology, and I hope that in the course of the passage of this Bill through the Committee stage we shall succeed in relegating the Treasury to its proper place among the more important

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  Government Departments concerned. I would add this, that if the Treasury is to be the main co-ordinator of other Government Departments and the chief economic planning entity in the State, it is fully time that it applied itself more to matters affecting human rights and values, and less to the technique of banking and accountancy.
  Hon. Members must really forgive me for entertaining strong feelings on this subject. A very large part of my constituency has been requisitioned for war purposes. Many hundreds of people have been uprooted. Farmers have been dispossessed and have been unable to till their fields. A whole village, complete with church and houses dating back to Tudor times, has been engulfed. Billeted troops have liberally discharged their firearms through windows and into old panelling. Tanks have torn up roads and crashed through fences and gateposts and into the walls of buildings. Hutments and establishments of every sort and kind have sprung up like mushrooms, pock-marking the downs and valleys. The fever of military destruction and improvisation has settled upon a tranquil corner of England famous to lovers of Thomas Hardy and beloved by holiday makers for the view of sea and coast.
  What is to be the future of this kind of area under this Bill? Let me recall to the House the smooth words in Clause 5 (1):
  "Where there are Government war works on the land, the power of acquisition shall be exercisable if those works were constructed wholly or partly at the expense of the Crown … and, in the opinion of the Minister, either—
  (a) the value of any of the works ought, by the acquisition of the land to be preserved … for the Crown …."
  The fatal phraseology continues in Clause 9 (1):
  "Subject to the provisions of Sub-sections (5) and (6)"—
  provisions which are insufficient for the purpose—
  "… where proposals involving the acquisition of land are referred to the Commission and the Commission report that the land or any part of it ought not to be acquired, the Minister may, if the ground, or one of the grounds, of the proposed acquisition was that the right to use or determine the use of works ought to be preserved or secured by the acquisition of the land, nevertheless proceed with the acquisition on that ground if he thinks fit to do so.…"
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  It is quite clear that there is no appeal from a War Office decision that these areas must be retained for military purposes. Clause 11 as drafted, gives no powers to the Commission to hear evidence other than on the extent of pecuniary hardship of the owner where the ground for acquisition is that the value of the works ought to be preserved, and that is the ground in this case. The interest of the individual owner in reclaiming his land would be as nought compared with the interest of the War Office in retaining what amounts to scores of square miles of good tank country. Even this House has no redress. We are merely to be informed. In that connection I would like to welcome what the right hon. Gentleman said today, and I hope that we shall get an affirmative Resolution of this House as a necessary safeguard against a Government decision. However, as things stand, no representations can be made to any independent authority to move the mind of the Director of Military Training away from the idea that it would be a good thing for him to hang on to this land. He is judge in his own cause; there is no one to say to him, "Think again. The Dorset farmers want their land back. The coastal fishermen want their fishing rights restored. Exhausted factory workers want to hike again through villages and over the downs. Take your training establishments to the wilds of Scotland, to the North German plains, to France, to the Colonies, to India." There is no independent authority, under this Bill, which has the power, or is charged with the duty, to take evidence, even in secret, as to whether such propositions are or are not feasible.
  We ought to amend this Bill to ensure that there is some appeal from the whims of the military mind. We all recognise the need for powerful armed forces in this country for many years to come; if that were not so this Bill would be rejected out of hand. But the civilian has his claims, too, and the Ministers for the great Civil Departments must be imported right into the body of this Measure to give due weight to the hopes and plans of the ordinary man, who is, after all, entitled to reinstatement in his home and occupation if only as a reward for the willingness and nobility of his sacrifices. I think this is a necessary Bill, and that it can be made a good Bill. There have been suggestions, notably that from the hon.

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  Member for East Birkenhead, that it should be withdrawn. Having regard to the fact that there are at least 100 Amendments on the Order Paper, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made large concessions to-day, it might be convenient, on the whole, to consider such a course, but if the Chancellor thinks otherwise, and explains his reasons to the House, I, for one, shall not vote against the Second Reading.
  4.32 p.m.
  Colonel Clarke: My name is among those on the Order Paper in support of the Amendment by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) for the rejection of this Bill. I believe that the reasons why I put my name to that Amendment were sound when I did so, and that they are sound now, but before giving them I would like to make one or two general comments about the Bill. I think everybody will admit that this is a necessary Measure. A great deal of valuable work has been done all over the country, some on private land and some on common land, which should not be lost to the country, and it is out of the question that a private owner should be allowed to make any profit out of that work or from the war generally. But this Bill is not one which really deals with the winning of the war. It is not a vital Bill in that way. It is not a Bill like the Town and Country Planning Bill, which we discussed here before Christmas, and on which much of the comfort and welfare of our people depended, because until it was passed we could not begin our housing planning. In fact, the only side of this Bill which appears to me to be of immediate and vital urgency to our reconstruction is that part which deals with the transition from war to peace, of our factories. To some extent the Chancellor modified the fears we had about that matter, and has promised to keep the door open for further discussions.
  As regards the question of the transition of factories, I think we should bear in mind that although it may profit our industries generally it represents, nevertheless, a very great threat to one of the greatest, if not the greatest, of our industries, namely, agriculture, which will be prejudiced at the expense of the others. Further this Bill shows a complete disregard for the modern doctrines of the location of industry, and jettisons the
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  Barlow Report on that subject entirely. There are other Reports which bear on this subject, and which have been asked for by the Government—the Scott and Uthwatt Reports—and we have only to read the letters in the Press and our postbags to know what the country thinks of them and the way this Bill cuts across their recommendations.
  This Bill seems to be mainly concerned with the transition from war to peace. There seems no reason why there should be haste or friction and why every consideration should not be given to the various interests concerned. On the other hand, there appears to be only one really fundamental basis that lies behind the provisions of this Bill, and that is economy. Coming from the Treasury I do not know whether we should criticise that, because for the Treasury economy is perhaps the first virtue. But that being so, were the Treasury really the party to undertake the framing of this Bill? I have at home a Bill which deals with rural water supplies, by means of which the Minister of Health wishes to construct certain things which will very much affect the Minister of Agriculture. I see on the back of that Bill the names of both those Ministers, and if, to the names of the Service Ministers backing the Measure we are discussing to-day, there could have been added the names of the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Town and Country Planning, who would thereby have had a hand in framing it, a great deal of criticism would have been avoided.
  This Bill cuts across all modern ideas of town planning. The 80 years of work put into preserving open spaces in this crowded island seems to have been disregarded altogether. It proposes to use Acts nearly a century old, dating back to the time when we had no idea of the preservation of commons and open spaces and things of that sort. I would like to give one or two examples from my own county. The first is an area known as Ashdown Forest. This is a large common in the centre of Sussex, which has been zoned as a private open space. During the war it has been a training area, and is now scarred with trenches and other things. Two areas of between 70 and 80 acres have been taken over for camps and other necessary operational structures. Before we came back from the Christmas Recess the Conservators

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  of which I am one had a meeting to consider how we could get it back as soon as possible to its former condition for the use of the commoners and the enjoyment of the public, and we all agreed that, if possible, we should try to get the Army themselves to restore it to its former state, because they have the bulldozers and other necessary equipment and, not least, the finance.
  Now we have this bombshell, which looks as if the very existence of common rights will be threatened. Whereas a few years ago a small area was taken in order to widen roads and an equivalent area was bought by the County Council and added to the forest to make up for it, at the present time a large area of something like 150 acres might be taken, together with other forest land around that area, and there appears to be no intention, or power, in the Bill as it stands at present for it to be replaced with an equal amount of equally useful land for the public. Again, in another part of Sussex, on the South Downs, between Brighton and Eastbourne, we have 28,000 acres of land which has been sterilised by the County Council against building. Over £70, 000 has had to be paid in compensation for parts of that land, mainly near the towns, while other large areas have been sterilised free of charge by the generosity of landowners. During the war that land has been a training area, and is now covered with ranges and the like. There are ruined farm houses and things of that sort, all of which will be extremely expensive to repair.
  It is possible under this Bill—I am not saying that it will be done—that that land might be sold and the restrictions removed, that it might be bought by a speculative land-butcher and divided, and that we may see fresh Peacehavens arising in those open spaces. Anybody who knows the Sussex coast, or Peacehaven, will know what that threat is. I do not say that it will be done—I am sure the intention is that it shall not be done—but those powers are in writing in the Bill, and until we see written in the text of the Bill something effective to deal with that position we shall not be very happy about it. One does think sometimes that this requisitioning might have been an opportunitiy for increasing amenities in-
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  stead of threatening them. Again, a great area of agricultural land, some 300,000 acres, which is part of a very limited and irreplaceable quantity of our total land is threatened. That land will be dealt with from a purely financial point of view, and not from a food production or amenity point of view. The value of agricultural land is to-day being realised, as is seen in the Scott Report, and, in fact, before houses are built the Minister of Health has to consult with the Minister of Agriculture. All that doctrine is totally disregarded in the Bill. Further, adjacent land is also included. Farms which are at present divided by the formation of airfields are threatened with more division. Farm roads are blocked, and the economic structure of the country, which has suffered during the war by being arbitrarily divided, will remain impaired. That is a most serious thing.
  Again, surely it would have been better if, instead of the Bill being presented, as it has been, complete, we had had something in the form of a Debate on a White Paper, when the Treasury could have found the reactions of people to the Bill and to the questions in it. I should like to see the Bill withdrawn and recast. I believe that is the solution, and I 'believe that before the pages of Amendments on the Paper are dealt with, a good many other people will agree with me. It will take a very long time.
  I feel that the power to override the decision of the Commission is a mistake. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has qualified that, and I hope it will be still further qualified. I think it is essential that proper notification of proposals should be given. I see no reason why there should be the hurry over this Bill that there has been over some recent Bills. I think that public bodies like the National Trust and others interested in the preservation of open spaces should have power to object. The threat to footpaths and other communications should be gone into and, if possible, minimised. The power to acquire adjoining land is an exceedingly dangerous one and opens a wide vista of highly contentious cases. I agree, however, with the provision that, if cash is given, it should be seen that it is spent on putting the land in order. All the same, I believe it would be much better for the Government to do the work themselves.

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  There are three main things that we want—the return of open spaces, not only commons, but National Trust properties and land zoned as public or private open spaces by local authorities. As soon as possible and, where it is possible, they should be restored to the condition they were in when taken. Secondly, where they cannot be restored—no one expects highly expensive camps to be pulled down and the land turned back to common—an equivalent area should be given as under the Local Government Act, 1933. Lastly, I hope that much of the agricultural land involved which I believe was largely taken over for more airfields which are redundant either to the Services or to civilian aviation will be cleaned up and handed back as soon as possible for its original use, the production of food. In Sussex we regard it as bad enough to take a goose from a common but to take the common from the goose is a great deal worse. I feel that the Bill is threatening a good many of our open spaces.
  4.51 p.m.
  Mr. Pickthorn: This is for me as much as for anyone else a constituency matter and there is very much that I could say, both as the representative of what I suppose is if not the largest at any rate corporately the most widely extended of all land owners and there is also much that I could say from the point of view of a town and university hemmed in by industrial or suburban buildings on three sides, where private individuals and corporations have made great sacrifices to protect the fourth side, but where under war, time necessities, or what were considered as such, factory buildings have been put up, and the Bill seems not to give the safeguards that we might reasonably expect. But I think that most questions of the function and procedure of the Bill which might be discussed under the two heads that I have mentioned have been already indicated, and especially I would express agreement with my hon. and gallant Friend who immediately preceded me. I should like, not any longer to insist, as almost all who have spoken have insisted, upon the over-riding desire that when the fighting is over open spaces should be as great as they were before the fighting began, and that the proportion of cultivable land shall have been permanently reduced as little as possible
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  —those I think are the two practical objects which we have all agreed upon—but I should like to turn from that practical aspect to some constitutional considerations about the nature of the Bill and the way in which it has been introduced. I am inclined to agree with the last speaker that it would have been wiser that the Bill should be withdrawn and recast and brought in a new form before us for Second Reading. It seems to me that the House is placed in a very unfair position when it is treated as it has been to-day, no doubt with the best intentions in the world. When a Bill is put before us and the Minister says, This is very nearly a perfect Bill; of course I am going to alter Clauses 5 a lot and 7 a good deal and 9 a great deal, and so on, it really makes a Second Reading Debate very difficult indeed for those who necessarily are not so familiar with the Bill as the Minister in charge, not having lived with it from its gestation as Ministers have.
  I should like especially to give a word of warning about ministerial "assurances," without the least reflection on my right hon. Friend or any other right hon. Gentleman; but we have had experiences of these assurances. We had the experience of the Town and Country Planning Bill, where an assurance was given and, no doubt through some sort of muddle and not with any dishonest intention, it was found necessary in another place to nullify that assurance. The House must not allow itself to proceed. upon the basis that assurances to amend are effective. There is another kind of assurance, a still more deceptive kind, that you may let the Bill go through as it stands and you may be sure that the Minister will work it this way or that, and will not use it for a purpose for which it is not designed. We had an illustration of that to-day. Some considerable time ago, we passed a Bill and there was not the least doubt in anyone's mind that its purpose was to prevent trading with the enemy, and that any confidential information obtained by the Minister was to be used for that purpose only. Now that information is to be used for quite other purposes. It does not matter to my argument whether the new use is wholly right or wholly wrong; but when I asked my right hon. Friend, "Did you make sure that no assurances were given at the time that the information should be used only for the purposes specified in the Bill?" he

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  could not answer. He had not made sure, he does not know whether there were assurances or not; and when the House refuses too easily to accept assurances as likely to be remembered, it is not a reflection on the good intentions of these transitory phantoms on the Front Bench, because in the light of the history of the House and the country transitory phantoms is what they are—it is not critical of them but of the way in which practical business is done.
  It is not possible that such assurances should be always recalled and checked in time. Therefore I have all the more regrets that it has not so far been indicated to us that the Bill is to be withdrawn and reintroduced. For this reason also: the Chancellor told us that he hoped that after these assurances the gulf would be smaller. I hope it will be smaller—unless his assurances are meaningless it must be—but it is also more difficult to measure. The only question for us to decide on any Second Reading, for there are only two lobbies, is whether the gulf between us and the Government is just wide enough or not wide enough to make us go into the "No" lobby. I feel certain that in normal times it would be right to divide against the Bill. I do not yet feel quite certain about it to-day. Let me explain why. There was a time when we were told that there was to be no controversial legislation. That time has long gone past. I do not know who issued a dispensation to right hon. Gentlemen to break those bonds of honour, but they have long been burst asunder. So long as the Government were believing, or even only pretending, that they were introducing no controversial legislation, it was the business of Private Members to facilitate Government business. But now, I think it has been publicly stated by a Minister that we had done more by way of social changes in five months than in normal times would have been done in five years. Anyway, something of the sort is often said and is not denied. When that sort of thing is said, and when this kind of Bill is brought before us, the Front Bench must get it in its head that thereby the House is legibus solutus, that we are freed from the war-time laws of Parliamentary football and that we must again be allowed to play the game according to peace-time rules. It may for this one last time be right to exercise our war-time
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  tolerance on the Second Reading of the Bill but at the time when we come to look at it in Committee it will be really quite different.
  I noticed especially this time the right hon. Gentleman's insistence upon the sacredness of house property which is lived in. I feel that this is a very dangerous argument. Of course, in a sense the home is peculiarly sacred, just as the right to personal safety of a little girl of six is a peculiarly sacred right. We should all think it peculiarly wicked to beat up little girls of six, but when the argument is used apparently, in such a way as to subsume that it is quite right to beat up big girls of 16, then this argument of the peculiar sacredness of dwelling houses does seem to become very dangerous. I now see that I have before me no less than six Members of the Socialist Party displaying some interest in a Bill which goes deep to the roots of property. I would beg them to consider that they might be right or wrong in supposing that property must be destroyed, and that only by that destruction can you get political freedom or social security, but there are some people who take the opposite view that, if you destroy property, there will be no security and no liberty. The Chancellor argued to-day about the peculiar sacredness of dwelling-house property, as though, somehow or other, that dispensed him from treating all other property as sacred, but, as I say, I think that is an extremely dangerous argument.
  The main point is that there is appearing a rapidly hardening doctrine, which Ministers have picked up—I do not quite know where, but I could make a very good guess—about the wickedness and unconstitutionality of instructing by Bill one Department to consult another Department. If I might, in this respect, quote the words of Mr. Henry Ford, who used them about something quite different, "This really is bunk." And what is more it is new bunk. There was once a tendency to base it on some mystical nonsense about the oneness of the Crown but lately the theory was tied to a ludicrously excessive assumption of the solidarity of the Cabinet. I would undertake to cross-examine any one of the Members of the present Cabinet on how many knew which of the others was in the Cabinet or not. When the Chancellor told me that he had looked into all the precedents—I am

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  not at all sure, but I hope he meant that he had looked into them per alios and not per se—I do not know quite what he means because there are so many of them, they are scattered all over the Statute Book. I would undertake if it were in Order to do it to bet that it is only within the last 10 years or so that this doctrine has come into existence, and yet even since this doctrine came into existence it has been broken by more than one Bill on the Statute Book. They are trying very hard to harden into one of the conventions of the Constitution what, when you get down to it, merely means an increasing of the power of the Executive over this House.
  The kind promise of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor that all these things should come before us for a negative Resolution means what? What does it really mean in the circumstances? It will be ex hypothesi a matter of policy. It merely means that if we vote against any one of these things it would involve turning out the Government. We are continually getting the Government pretending to decide, as a matter of policy, things which are really matters of rights and wrongs, matters of justice between individuals and corporations. To get more and more of such things under exclusive Governmental decision as matters of policy is dangerous, and any regime that goes far in that direction, I will undertake to prophesy, will "bust."
  5.8 p.m.
  Squadron Leader Sir Gifford Fox: My name is one of those to the Amendment for the rejection of the Bill, moved by the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton). I have listened to most of the Debate, and I have been unable to find anyone who is really happy about this Bill except the hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen (Mr. M. Hughes). I was surprised at the hon. Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) thinking that public apprehension about this Bill would have been allayed if the Chancellor, in presenting it for the First Reading, had issued with it a statement. That would have been on 20th December, and if the Chancellor had issued a statement then it would have been very different from what he would have said to-day. He has changed his heart and he is much more conciliatory to-day than he would have been then. What amazed me
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  is the mentality of the Government in introducing a Bill like this and expecting to get it through this House of Commons. Everyone is amazed that there is no mention in the Bill of the Minister of Town and Country Planning, and that when the Government has been urging local authorities to get on with their planning and to prepare for the post-war period local planners have had no opportunity of putting their case. In the same way, local authorities have been unable to raise any objections unless they have a legal interest in the land. I notice the Minister of Agriculture is completely out of the picture, although some 600,000 acres of agricultural land are involved.
  The whole basis of the Bill is finance. There is no question of fair play or of giving a fair deal to the people who have been affected by the various requisitioning notices. In my Division there are a number of large houses which were requisitioned at the beginning of the war. In many cases they were offered to the Government as hospitals. Since then large hutment camps have been built round them, chiefly by the Americans. Many thousands of pounds have been spent on these camps. The houses are very valuable and the families lived in them in peace time. As I understand the Bill there is nothing to stop the Government turning the people out of their homes and taking over the whole place to run it as a holiday camp. The hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen, who is the only supporter of this Bill, seemed to take a great delight in this. The fact remains that whether people have got small homes or large homes, those are their homes and where their affection is. I do ask for fair play for these people who, in many cases, were the first to offer their homes for hospitals and have afterwards, owing to the exigencies of the war, found that there have been great extensions.
  Another problem which is seriously alarming my constituents is that of commons. On two of these commons, large hospital hutment camps have been built, costing something in the neighbourhood of £200,000. We demand that these camps should be removed and the commons returned to the people. They destroy the whole amenity of the district. In one district large sewage works have been erected in the middle of good residential property. It is only right that these Commons should be restored. I

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  hope that the Government, even at this late stage, will consider withdrawing this Bill and recasting it. I am certain it will save the Government, and Ministers, a very great deal of Parliamentary time, for there is no question that in the Committee stage the Government will have a rough road. What we have heard from the Chancellor to-day has made the Bill entirely different. None of us knows exactly the full implications of it, and I am sure it would be very much wiser if the Government listened to the Members of this House who have urged withdrawing the Bill and starting afresh, when they would be able to pass it through all its stages very much more quickly and much more easily. We all recognise that some legislation is necessary, but let us have a Bill which is going to be fair to all.
  5.13 p.m.
  Commander Galbraith: After the outstanding performance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer today, after the House has witnessed the pride with which he introduced this child of his, and after listening to the many assurances he gave as to its good conduct, it seems to me to be almost unseemly to criticise the Bill at all. Yet criticisms have been forthcoming and I intend to continue them, even if only in a mild way, because I believe it is all to the good that we who sit on the back benches should say exactly what we think of this Bill, and perhaps remove some of that rosy light which the Chancellor shed upon the picture to-day. Of course, it is universally recognised in this House that legislation of some kind is essential to regularise the position which has arisen as a result of Government works having been set up on requisitioned land during the war. But whether that legislation should take the form of this Bill is another matter altogether, and one on which, I am sure, the Government now know there is a great diversity of opinion in this House. No Member of the House desires that anyone should make a profit out of Government war works, but many of us consider that some of the powers given in this Bill may operate against the public interest and be not only unfair, but unjust to private individuals. The Bill is purely a financial Measure. It is designed to enable the Treasury to recoup itself to the largest possible extent, which, in the interests of the taxpayer, is a very
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  proper consideration, but, as other Members have said, it should not be the overriding consideration.
  In this matter is seems to me that three different and perhaps conflicting interests are involved. There is the national interest, there are local interests, and there are the interests of the individual citizen. In those circumstances it is most desirable that the tribunal which is to be set up to decide as between these different interests should be absolutely impartial, not only in fact but in the opinion of the country. Therefore, my first objection to the Bill, as it has been that of many other Members, is that the Commission is to be appointed by the Treasury. The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought that that was a most appropriate body to appoint the Commission, but I cannot agree with him, because the Treasury is one of the most interested parties. The Chancellor said in that connection that, although the Commission was appointed by the Treasury, it might nevertheless be, and would be, both independent and impartial. I do not believe that that will be the view of the country as a whole or of those individuals whose objections are overruled by the Commission. These latter might well consider that the scales of justice had been unfairly weighted against them, and it will create in their minds feelings of injustice and a sense of grievance. If these feelings are to be avoided—and it is important that they should be avoided as far as possible—it is essential that the Commission should be set up by some completely impartial authority and not by any interested Department.
  I presume that the real object of setting up a Commission is to protect the interests of all concerned, and, perhaps more than others, those interests which are other than Government interests. If it is really to perform that function adequately it appears to me that its findings should be, in practically every case, final and binding upon the Government. The Chancellor said that if such powers were given to the Commission it might well be deciding matters of policy which was the province of the Government. Against that I would say that if the Government find it necessary to acquire property or land in order to carry their policy into effect, they should surely come to the House, state what their policy is, and ask for

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  powers to carry it out instead of obtaining these powers more or less surreptitiously under this Bill. I do not consider that the Commission provides adequate protection.
  I should like to refer to the case, which the Chancellor quoted, of the dwelling house. In Clause 9 (5) it appears that the dwelling house is completely protected, but when you come to Clause 11 (5) you find that there are considerable doubts. You discover there that, in considering proposals which involve the acquisition of a house, the Commission has to make up its mind on three different points. One is whether the acquisition is necessary in order to preserve something which is of substantial value to the community. I contend that that instruction very much modifies the safeguard contained in Clause 9. Many houses have been requisitioned during the war and put to a use which is undoubtedly of value to the community, and many Ministers might well wish to continue that use; but surely the fact that a house has been requisitioned and used during the emergency for a purpose of value to the community is no reason in justice why it should be appropriated by the Government. The house may well be the owner's home. Have we really reached a stage in this country when the home of any man can be taken to suit the Government's convenience? If so, I suggest that at least a measure of our vaunted freedom no longer exists, and that we are beginning to approach that system of dictatorship on which for nearly six years we have been expending our utmost efforts both to defeat and to abolish.
  I was rather interested to discover that my right hon. Friend considered that Clause 10 was one which gave great protection. To my mind it has many objectionable sides to it. The Clause deals with land which it is proposed to acquire because, in the Minister's opinion, the value of the works on it ought to be preserved; and it empowers the Commission to report that the land ought not to be acquired if some person who is interested in the land is prepared to make a payment in respect of that value. I suggest that that Clause is capable of being used most unfairly. Take the example of the military authorities or some other Department who have made alterations to requisitioned property to suit their own convenience, alterations which are of no
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  benefit to the owner and which, indeed, may be a bugbear to him. I heard the other day of a good example of this. I do not vouch for the facts, but I give them as the House may be interested. The War Office caused a certain large house with stables attached to be requisitioned. For their own purpose the War Office gutted the stables and erected a cinema instead. Now they no longer have use of the building and have asked the owner how much he is willing to pay for the improvements they have made to his property. Under this Clause there is no doubt that the owner can be called upon to pay for something which is of no value to him whatever. As for many years after the war buildings of all kinds will be in short supply, I feel that this Clause may also be used as a species of blackmail, because the owner in these circumstances will be willing to pay almost any price to get his building back, knowing that it is impossible to get alternative accommodation.
  I was going to say a word or two as to the narrow area from which objections can be made, but the Chancellor dealt with that matter this morning. I understood from him that he is prepared so to amend the Bill as to widen the area from which objections can be lodged. Therefore, I do not propose to say anything more about that point. I feel that the matters to which I have alluded point increasingly to the need of the Commission being entirely impartial and being given wider powers than those proposed.
  May I turn to the powers which are conferred on the Board of Trade under Clause 8 (5)? The Chancellor stated that they were probably the most difficult problems in the Bill. That Clause and Subsection remove from the review of the Commission land where the Board of Trade is prepared to certify that the land is part of industrial premises which owe their existing character to Government war work and that it is expedient in the interests of an orderly transition from war to peace conditions that the right of the Crown to dispose of the premises should be established forthwith. These are very wide powers. Depending on the legal interpretation that may be placed on the words "in substance owe their existing character to Government war work," they might enable the Government to acquire industrial premises where some slight alterations had been made at Government

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  expense and enable the Board of Trade to take from their present owners similar premises and to place them to such use as they thought fit. That might apply to almost any factory which had been requisitioned during the war.
  The extraordinary thing is that there is no right of appeal for the owners. That is a most extraordinary omission. It denies one of the fundamental rights of the individual, rights which have been possessed by the people of this country for centuries. I very much doubt the wisdom of giving powers to the Board of Trade to decide what use is to be made of requisitioned factories without any check whatever. Surely this House has not reached the stage when it is prepared to empower the Board of Trade to seize any factory it sees fit to seize and to put it to any purpose it sees fit, without any control or machinery through which the owners can be assured that reasonable consideration will be given to their rights and objections. Unless some machinery of that nature is set up, the Board of Trade will become the dictator of British industry, and that is a position which I am certain it will be unable to occupy either to the satisfaction or to the benefit of the people of this country.
  There are many other points which arise from this Bill. There is the extent to which land can be acquired, to which there appears to be no limit under the Bill. We want some clearer definition on that point. There are the interests of agriculture and other amenities, which receive scant consideration, unless they are covered under Clause 11 (1), where the Commission is instructed to pay regard to all relevant considerations. That general instruction is not adequate, particularly as it is followed in the succeeding Sub-sections by detailed instructions on matters to which the Commission has to pay special regard. It would be interesting if the Attorney-General informed us from the legal point of view what weight will be given to the general as against the particular instructions by a body such as this Commission. There is, too, the matter of compensation, which I understand is to be on the 1939 values. That is quite inadequate in many cases. Where buildings have been taken over or destroyed in the interests of the war effort there is only one adequate measure of compensation, and that is replacement
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  value. Where is the justice in offering a man compensation on 1939 values when he has to replace it at 1945 values? I cannot see any logic or justice in such a proposition.
  One other point to which I would like to refer arises on Clause 6, about which the Chancellor spoke. In the terms of that Clause, it is provided that where the value of the land has been diminished to such an extent that the cost of restoration is likely to exceed the amount by which the value has been diminished, the Government may acquire. There will be many cases, and the Chancellor gave us examples, where the cost of restoration will be so considerable as to be quite impracticable, but there will also be many borderline cases. Is the Commission to have no discretion in this connection other than that laid down in the Bill? It seems to me to be somewhat unmoral that the Government, having requisitioned property and having allowed it to be damaged during their occupation—and where troops have been billeted there has in many cases been much needless damage—should turn to the owner and say: "Because we have succeeded in damaging your property to such an extent we propose to take it from you or to ask you to surrender your claims for compensation." It is an extraordinary proposition and I suggest that the Commission should have a very wide discretion in cases of that nature.
  The Bill will require drastic, important and far-reaching amendment. My attitude towards the Bill will depend on the willingness of the Government to take into favourable consideration the many important points which have been raised in the Debate, and in particular on its willingness to amend the Bill so that the Commission will actually be impartial and independent, that the powers of Ministers to overrule the findings of the Commission are very materially reduced and a reasonable limit placed on the certifying powers given to the Board of Trade.
  5.32 p.m.
  Sir Joseph Lamb: My name is attached to the Amendment for the rejection of the Bill. I speak for the County Councils' Association, who take a great deal of interest in these proposals. Anyway, after listening to the Chancellor, I feel there is a necessity for a Bill, but that is not saying that this is the right Bill. I have never in my long experience heard

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  a Minister make such a conciliatory speech as did the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I appreciated that. Consequently, I think we should do better to allow the Bill to have its Second Reading and to rely upon the statement which the right hon. Gentleman has made that he will give full consideration to the various points which we shall make on the Committee stage.
  I have, however, one question to put to him. Can he give the House an assurance that when he has given full consideration to the Bill we shall have full power to accept or reject the Amendments when they come forward? I have the unfortunate experience of knowing that when we take Bills in Committee on the Floor of the House and not in Committee upstairs there is very little power to make Amendments. When an Amendment has been argued very soundly by both sides on the Floor of the House, all that the Minister in charge has to do is to call for a Division. The Whips will stand at one end, and certain intimations will be given to Members. Members who do not know what they are voting about will come in. I am not giving any show away, because we know how many Members come down here and say: "What is this?" and vote according to their instructions. I want to know whether we can be given an assurance that, when the Amendments which have been foreshadowed are voted upon, the House will have a fair opportunity of expressing its will as against the decisions of the Minister.
  5.35 p.m.
  Major York: I think my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb) has put a point that the Government will find it difficult to answer. The real solution is for the Standing Committees, which we all understand are likely to be set up in the near future, to celebrate their reappearance by operating on the Bill.
  Mr. A. Bevan: "Operating" is the word.
  Major York: Like my hon. Friend the Member for Stone I signed the Amendment for the rejection of the Bill, but like him I believe that the Chancellor should be allowed a run, although it is on sufferance, on the Second Reading of the Bill. He certainly did appear to give way on a large number of very important subjects, but his conciliation was of such a charming nature that by the time he
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  had finished I was not at all sure what the shape of the Bill really was. I am wondering whether it might be of interest if I dangled over the Chancellor of the Exchequer certain flies in the shape of principles which I hold to be essential in dealing with a matter of this kind.
  It is clear that the Commission will be a body independent of the Government. That principle has been accepted, but it is in the terms of reference that the principles which I am going to state must be expressed most clearly. I do not believe that the Chancellor is prepared to go as far as that, even if it is legally possible to do so. Also in the limitation placed upon the binding decisions of the Commission those principles can be endangered and maybe broken. It is these limitations about which the House is still very doubtful and I am sure that nothing the Chancellor said in his speech in any way allowed those fears. One of the principles is that the Government must prove their case in every particular instance. Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether that principle is accepted by the Government? I do not think they can say it, because in the case of factories under Clause 8 (5) they certainly are not required to prove their case. If they will accept that principle they must include factories within the terms of reference of the Commission.
  The second principle is that all the blemishes of the war must be removed, and I think it has been thoroughly and completely accepted in principle—but not in the Bill. The Chancellor says that this is the intention of the Government and I have no doubt it is. We shall have to incorporate into the Bill far more clearly than is stated at present words which will include those cases where the Government have to prove their case for a permanent retention of the land. There ought also to be provision where possible that the term of Government occupation, though long, may not be permanent but limited in the number of years. There ought to be provision for compulsory leasing rather than for acquisition. At a later stage I shall endeavour to move an Amendment to that effect, and I hope it will receive a sympathetic hearing from the right hon. Gentleman.
  I accept the Government's contention that if the only way to obtain restoration of the land is by acquisition, acquisition

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  is justified, but I would go much further and say that, in every case of damage if this is possible, and certainly in every case where compensation greater than that which can be obtained under the Compensation (Defence) Act is paid, there should be conditions making it compulsory for the money to be spent upon restoration. Once the Government have acquired land with the express intention of restoring it, local authorities and other interested bodies should have the power of seeing to it and of making the necessary arrangements to have that land restored. I see the possibility of the Government having a very great number of acquired sites on their hands which they intend to restore but which may in future economy drives be forgotten. I should like to see some power in the hands of local authorities or other local interests to insist upon the Government carrying out the terms of their purchase.
  The next principle is that where the property has been taken from a public or private owner it must be returned. The Chancellor said that that was his intention in the vast majority of cases. I accept that, of course, as meaning that he accepts that principle but I see dangers attaching to it. It may well mean that where there is to be a big expenditure on restoration the Government may decide that they will acquire, in order to do only partial restoration. It may be necessary for the Commission to decide that because of the unreasonably prohibitive cost of restoration, total restoration is not practicable—but only partial restoration—tidying up and limiting the area of damage—can be done. But whatever the circumstances, full compensation shall be paid; I feel that the owner should be allowed to do this, or the Government should do it for the owner, rather than that the Government should acquire. Why should not the work be done over a period of years and the compensation paid over a period, say, 10 years? In this way the work could be done bit by bit and the financial burden would be lightened.
  The Chancellor has accepted the principle that a man's home is of very definnite importance. I was rather surprised to hear my hon. Friend the Senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) expressing surprise that so much emphasis was placed upon a man's home
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  being taken. I consider it to be essential, where a man's home has been taken, that the house should be rebuilt or in appropriate cases the damage made good. The Chancellor spoke very sympathetically about this matter but I do not see it mentioned in the Bill.
  Sir J. Anderson: There will be compensation up to the value of the house.
  Major York: Up to what value of the house? The value of 1939? In almost all cases that would only build a very small part of the original property in these days. In the case of a private landowner it would be no defence for him to say to his tenant: "I am sorry that the Air Ministry has knocked down my house in which you lived." It is his duty to rebuild that house. It is equally the Government's duty to see that the owner can carry out his job properly. The fourth principle is one which, as far as I can gather, the Government have not accepted. It is that it is not the normal function of government to acquire compulsorily any property and sell it to a third party. This is surely an abuse of the functions of the Executive. I can see that there may be some small justification for it in the case only of factories, and then only when it applies to factories in urban areas. There may be some justification for it under those circumstances, but certainly to apply that principle generally is to alter radically the rights of property, and it is not the purpose of this Bill radically to alter those rights. The sixth principle follows from that, that in no circumstances whatever can a Government Department be justified in acquiring compulsorily adjoining or neighbouring land to that which they have under requisition, and selling it to a third party. If they acquired in order to sell it would open opportunities for grave malpractices, and I hope this House will never allow the Executive such a power. If third parties want adjoining land they can go into the market, and use the normal marketing methods, but to use this Bill, which is a war-time Bill, arising out of the effects of the war, is to my mind almost an outrage.
  I wish to say one word on the question of compensation, because the Minister has power, under Clause 47, to grant greater compensation than what he could grant under the Compensation (Defence) Act. But I do not follow why it is not possible for the Commission itself to recommend,

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  or rather to report upon, compensation provisions. If "restoration" is to be the key word, and we believe it to be so, then surely they must have directions to recommend terms of compensation; it is rather strange to see that the only mention in the Bill where the Commission has power to determine the terms of compensation is in those cases where they may require or accept abrogation of rights from the owner. This is a "miniature" of the spirit which pervades the whole Bill.
  The final point, and it conditions everything else in the Bill, and everything said in the Debate to-day, concerns the Defence Acts. If we are unable in this Bill to modify the provisions of the Defence Acts, if we are unable to obtain some degree of control over the Service Departments during this process of transition, this Bill will be practically inoperative. My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Mahon (Mr. Turton) has produced. chapter and verse to show that the Air Ministry can do certain things. It will be for the Attorney-General to disprove my hon. Friend's contention, but he will have to go further than that. He will have to show that the Service Ministers cannot get out of their obligations to restore land through using the process of acquisition under Defence Acts, and I feel that if the Attorney-General, in his answer, can give a categorical assurance that the Defence Acts will not be used by any Service Department in allow the ravages of this war to remain unrestored, that will assure him of at any rate a practically unopposed Second Reading of the Bill. When we come to the Committee stage, I shall watch the implementation of the assurances that my right hon. Friend gave during his speech, and I shall restrain my opposition until that time.
  5.50 p.m.
  Mr. Keeling: As I intend to equal and even outstrip in brevity the many speeches made already against the Bill—there have been hardly any in favour of it—I shall deal only with one matter, that is, the effect of the Bill on commons and open spaces. The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave certain concessions on this matter, and I wish he had put them on the Order Paper before to-day's Debate. But he did not altogether reassure me, or, I think, most of the hon. Members on this side of the House. Hon. Members, almost without exception, have mentioned their own con-
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  stituencies. Therefore I may be allowed to say that I represent one of the most famous commons in England, Hounslow Heath, which long ago ceased to be the resort of criminals. I have been asked by the Commons, Open Spaces and Footpaths Society, of whose executive commitee I am a member, to put their case against this Bill.
  As hon. Members may know, that society was founded 80 years ago, when it effectively opposed the destruction of the commons then remaining. It fought and won the battles of Hampstead Heath, Wimbledon Common, Berkhamsted Common, and in the constituency of the Prime Minister, Epping Forest. Nominally, these battles were fought in aid of the vanishing village commoners, but actually, and, in fact, they were fought because of urban needs for air and exercise. That society, in the battles it has won during the last 80 years, has really introduced a new era, and I beg this House not to put back the clock. Does the House appreciate the extent of the commons and open spaces which have been acquired by the Government during this war? It is no exaggeration to say that hundreds of commons and open spaces have been taken, and the aggregate acreage is very large indeed. Not only have commons and open spaces been taken, but in my own constituency, in Heston and Isleworth, even land which had already been acquired by the borough council for housing and school playing fields has been acquired.
  What was the position of commons before the war? It was decreed by many Acts—Housing Acts, Local Government Acts, Town and Country Planning Acts, and Small Holdings Acts—that even if this common land was required for public purposes, it must not be enclosed or alienated except on two conditions. The first was that an equal area of common must be substituted. The second condition was that Parliament must specifically assent, under the Provisional Order procedure. There was another safeguard before a common could be enclosed. The Minister of Agriculture must give a certificate that this was in the interest of the inhabitants. What was the principle behind those provisions? It was that an adequate supply of open spaces for public recreation was a matter of national importance, and that their existing area ought not to be diminished. The present Bill, even if it

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  be amended in the manner promised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, gives no recognition to that fact.
  A rather remarkable letter in this morning's "Times" drew attention to the fact that the Water Bill, at present before this House, contains in Section 24 a provision that an order for the compulsory purchase of land forming part of a common or open space shall not have effect until it has been confirmed by Parliament. If that could be put in a Bill for such a vital matter as water supply, why could it not be put in this Bill? The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that we shall find salvation in Clause 26, but I find that this is part of Part 5 of the Bill, which deals with the acquisition of land by local authorities. How can the Attorney-General assure us that Clause 26 is any protection against the alienation of common land acquired by the Government? There is no guarantee, as I read this Bill, that any open space taken from the public during the war will ever be restored, or any equivalent amount of land provided by the Government.
  The powers and duties of the Minister of Agriculture, who is, under all previous legislation, the official guardian of common land, seem to be ignored. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that he would be consulted. It would have been very much better had that been put into the Bill. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) that there are any number of precedents for saying in a Bill that another Minister must be consulted. I find there is a precedent as lately as the Housing Act, 1936, which deals with this very point of consultation with the Minister of Agriculture before a common is acquired. Again, the Minister of Town and Country Planning is not mentioned. I think it would have been better to have mentioned him in the Bill, and better had he been here during this Debate.
  Clause 5 of this Bill enables the Government to acquire and dispose of commons on which war works have been executed, and to acquire adjoining and neighbouring land. My right hon. Friend said it was not intended, under Clause 6, to dispose of any common land which had been so acquired. Will my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General give an assurance that it is not intended to dispose
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  of any common land acquired under Clause 5? Will he also give us an assurance that he will exclude from acquisition by the Government any commons which have been acquired by local authorities or by the National Trust, or which have been regulated as public open spaces, or to which the public enjoy a statutory right of access for air and exercise under the Law of Property Act, 1925? I hope my right hon. and learned Friend will deal with that point. In the absence of any such assurance, it appears that without the sanction of Parliament, against the wishes of the local authority, and without the approval either of the commoners or the public, commons may, under Clause 5, as a financial expedient, be enclosed and converted to freehold. I think this House will be false to its traditions if it does not reject this proposal. Whatever happens to other land, common land which has been preserved as an open space, ought to be exempt from this provision.
  Much of this common land is of low value just because by Statute it cannot be cultivated or developed or enclosed. Much of it has been bought and vested in the National Trust at as low as £1 an acre. This common land embraces much of the most beautiful country in England, some of which is suitable for inclusion in the proposed national parks. I suggest that it will be disgraceful if this House gives the Government power to buy such land for a song, to strip the owners and the public of their rights, without recognition of the principles which have been laid down for many years by this House for their protection, and re-sell it as unencumbered freehold. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor gave lip service to amenities, but we want to see his assurances in the Bill. I echo the hope of my hon. Friend the Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White), that, even now, this Bill will be taken back and redrafted. If the Government are not prepared to do that, I hope that those—and there seem to be a great many—who feel as strongly as I do, will vote against the Second Reading of this Bill.
  6.1 p.m.
  Commander Sir Archibald Southby: I have no desire to detain the House for more than a very few moments, but since I am one of those whose names were put down to the Amendment for

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  the rejection of this Bill, I have some observations to make. Four things emerge from to-day's Debate: first, that a Bill of some kind is necessary in the national interest; secondly, that this Bill is not the Bill, because it is a bad Bill; thirdly, that nobody likes the Bill—I think only one speech has been made in support of the Bill; and, fourthly, that in view of the concessions which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made, he would have been much better advised had he done what he was asked to do, namely, withdrawn the Bill, inserted the concessions that he has made to-day, and let the House see it before Second Reading took place. I think Members would agree that, if there is one place above all others where the advice given in the Latin tag "Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" applies, it is on the Treasury Bench "Beware of the Greeks when they bring gifts"—I translate for the benefit of any non-Service Member in the House. But if there is any one Minister above all others to whom it applies, it is to the Chancellor of the Exchequer—not this Chancellor of the Exchequer only, but any Chancellor of the Exchequer. Bitter experience has taught us that the concessions given by a Chancellor of the Exchequer may sound very good, but careful examination has very often proved that they are not quite so good as the House was led to believe.
  I do not wish to recapitulate the arguments which have been so ably put by other Members, but I would like to reinforce what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling) on the question of commons and open spaces, more particularly because I represent a common which is perhaps the most widely-known, and on one day of the year at any rate, the most popular, in the world, namely, Epsom Downs. It is a serious matter that it should be possible, under the guise of a war necessity, which nobody denies, for a large hospital, for example, to be built on a common, and that then the Government should acquire that common—which ought to be retained as an open space—because it would be so expensive to do away with the hospital, and because it was desirable, in the national interest as it might well be, that such a hospital should exist somewhere. One Member said to-day that this House was the guardian of the public purse. I say that it is the guardian of
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  something much more important, the national honour. It is the duty of a Government to be most scrupulous in their dealings with those whom they govern. Let me remind the Government and it is perhaps time that it was said—that the Government are the servants of the people, and not their masters. This country is not as yet a totalitarian state. Yet if ever there was a Bill brought into this House which was designed to increase beyond all reason the power of the Executive, this Bill is it.
  I admit that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made many concessions, but it remains to be seen on the Committee stage, to which this Bill must now go, what the results will be. I think it would have been better if the Bill had been redrafted before the Second Reading Debate took place. I wish the advice and the suggestions made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) had been accepted by the Government. If it is not too late, and if they are not too stony-hearted, or too thick-headed, it would not be a bad thing if, even now, they reconsidered the matter, and adjourned the Debate, so that we might see the Bill brought in and discussed with all these Amendments included. It is very hard to see how they will affect the structure of the Bill when we can only consider them as they have been mentioned on the Second Reading. When this Bill comes before Committee, and these Amendments are brought forward, let the Chancellor of the Exchequer understand quite clearly, that there will be other Amendments brought forward by back-bench Members. With past experience to guide us, it is not unfair to say that we are a little afraid that when some Amendment comes forward which the Government do not like, we shall be told that it is a criticism of the Government's conduct of the war, and that it is going to be made a Vote of Confidence. Fresh in our memories is the time when we were told that a Debate on education was not the proper occasion to debate the question of equal pay for teachers—it is difficult to understand what would be a better occasion, but there it is.
  No Bill recently has stirred popular feeling in the country quite so much as this one has. Let the Government understand that the people are beginning to be very critical of the grasping of power by the Executive. Men fighting overseas are

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  not fighting to come back to a country in which no liberty any longer exists. They want their open spaces; they do not want to see Marlborough Down almost obliterated by some building which the Government say must remain there. They realise the sacrifices which had to be made by everybody in this country for the successful prosecution of the war but they believe that, where it is possible, it is the duty of the Government to honour its implied pledge, and to hand back to the owners, whether public or private—because it is not only private owners who are concerned in this matter but the public itself, those who, in effect, own the open spaces, for example—what they took in order that the purposes of the war might be fulfilled, as nearly as possible in the same condition in which it existed before the war began. On the Committee stage many Amendments will be moved, and I hope that they will be pressed, if necessary, to a Division. If to-day this Bill has a Second Reading, it is on the explicit understanding that the Government will expect criticism and amendment when the Bill comes to the Committee stage. I hope it will not be said then, "This is a criticism of the whole conduct of the war by the Government." It will be nothing of the sort; it will be a question of whether, on the Committee stage of this Bill, certain things should be left out of the Bill or certain things should go in.
  I hope that the Government will not finally close the door to the suggestion made by my hon. Fiend. It would be far better to adjourn the Debate to-day and let us have a new Bill, with these Amendments printed in it. That would shorten the Committee stage, and allay many misunderstandings and fears, if misunderstandings and fears exist, and it would be not only to the Government's advantage, but to the advantage of the House of Commons as well.
  6.10 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Cuthbert Headlam (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, North): I did not intend to say anything in this Debate, particularly after the concession by the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to the matter of open-cast coal working, but I feel a little nervous after listening to the Senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) and other hon. Members who have emphasised the fact that, because an assurance was given
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  in the House, it does not necessarily mean that it will be implemented in the Bill. I represent Newcastle-on-Tyne, and as other hon. Members have said that they are representatives of certain commons and places of that kind all over the country, I feel that I must say one word to emphasise the importance of the Town Moor to Newcastle.
  It is a very large area of open land in the hands of freemen, who are there by legislative sanction, and have been there for a great number of years, and have guarded this open space very carefully throughout this period, even against the Corporation of Newcastle. During the war, a certain fraction of the moor has been devoted to war service, and, since the necessity arose for more coal, a large area of its surface has been used for coal working, on the definite understanding that it would be replaced and the soil put right after the end of the war. I understood from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that that was the Government's intention, and I take it from him that that is the case. I hope that the Attorney-General, when answering for the Government, will make it clear that something will be put into this Bill, before it becomes law, to show that the intention of the Chancellor is being carried out. I have implicit faith in the Chancellor. I am not so certain that I have confidence in his Bill. It is not a Bill that commends itself to me. It is an ugly little thing, and I thought so when it was introduced. It may have a heart of gold, as the Chancellor told us, but it will have to go through a close examination and a good deal of alteration before it becomes the law of the land.
  6.13 p.m.
  Wing Commander James: The withdrawal by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of Sub-section 1 (a) of Clause 6 means that we know even less than before where we are on the question of restoration, and I would like the Attorney-General, when he replies, to tell us the Government's intentions on that subject. I want to put what is really a Committee point—an extreme case which is within my personal knowledge. In the centre of a very large and particularly well-managed farm, there is an avenue of trees. This avenue of trees has, for a long time, been used as a lorry park, and, in order to carry the lorries over a day soil, a concrete bed has been put down. What is the position

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  owner of that farm? I estimate that the cost of removing this concrete, unless it is done, as it should be done and as I hope it will be done, by German prisoner labour, will be enormous and quite beyond the capacity of any private individual. Here is one large field in the middle of a large farm. Obviously, it is no earthly use to the Government if they acquire it, because it is no use by itself, yet its remaining in its present condition is highly detrimental to the farm. That is an extreme case, but, all over the country, you get instances of that sort of work where the restoration of the land, unless done by German prisoner labour under Government supervision, would be quite beyond the power of the owner. I can find nothing in this Bill which gives any indication how that particular situation will be met.
  6.15 p.m.
  Mr. Ralph Etherton: The Chancellor of the Exchequer was this morning in a most conciliatory mood, but the Bill for which a Second Reading is asked to-day is a very different Bill from that outlined by the Chancellor. The Chancellor gave us many and varied assurances, and he tried to explain away the Bill by promising far-reaching Amendments, which, in point of fact, transform the Bill. There are already on the Order Paper several pages of Amendments, and those proposed by the Chancellor will occupy another considerable volume of space. Almost every speaker to-day has appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw the Bill for further consideration so that we can have before us a Bill which can more readily be understood and properly appreciated at its Second Reading. I, therefore, appeal, even at this late stage, to Members of the Government front bench to consider whether it would not be the decent thing now to withdraw this Bill and to bring it forward again in an understandable and workable form, because we are all agreed that some Bill of this nature is necessary.
  The Bill, I think it is fair to say, has been most indifferently handled. It has caused great confusion up and down the country, and, indeed, it is not an exaggeration to say that it is, throughout the country, one of the most unpopular Bills which the Government have yet presented, certainly it has shown the Government to be entirely out of touch with public
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  feeling. May I therefore again appeal to them to show themselves at least in touch with the feeling in this House, which has been expressed by almost every speaker, by withdrawing the Bill for further consideration?
  Seldom, in my submission, has a Bill been presented when fewer of those directly affected have previously been consulted. I do not want, at this late hour, to go over the fact that neither the names of the Ministers of Agriculture nor the Minister of Town and Country Planning appear on the back of the Bill, and that none of the planning authorities or corporate bodies interested have been consulted, nor any of the various bodies which represent those interested in commons and open spaces. The Bill, as it stands, shows that the Government are prepared to go back on the most solemn promises which they made at the beginning of this war, when public lands and private lands were taken, The Bill, in its present form, is fundamentally bad.
  After all, what have we to consider to-night? We have to consider whether this 'Pill as drafted is worthy of Second Reading, and the only manner in which we can properly address our minds to that is, in my submission, to ask whether the principles of the Bill as now set out are good. The principles of the Bill before the House are thoroughly bad. It may well be that the principles of a Bill such as that which the Chancellor indicated he would like, might be good, but the Bill before us now is a bad Bill. I do not propose to go through the various fundamental objections to it, to which attention has been drawn. The War Works Commission which is proposed inspires no confidence. It is to be neither impartial nor independent, and incidentally, its deliberations are to take place in secret. The principles upon which the Commission is to act, as outlined in Clause 10, are abhorrent.
  As the Bill is at present drawn, it is. proposed to take power to acquire not only land on which works have been built and land which is adjoining, but it is proposed to take neighbouring which may mean quite distant land. There again, I understand that the Chancellor is prepared to offer some concession. Why did not the Chancellor table some of these concessions before the Second Reading so that we could see them and then we could

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  have addressed our minds, with proper time for fair consideration, to the proposals which are before us this evening. Further, contrary to all previously established practice, which steadfastly refused to allow private owners to profit from suppressing rights of way and common, the Government, as the Bill is drawn, propose to make a profit by suppressing these rights. Nowhere in the Bill is there any direction or obligation to consult a planning authority; throughout the length and breadth of the Bill planning is wholly ignored.
  When one looks at the proposals of the Bill in regard to open spaces, they are exactly as indicated by my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling). What is the yardstick by which the Bill, as it is before us, is to be measured? Simply this, the only yardstick which is in fact in the Bill itself, namely finance, with the public interest wholly ignored and with planning ignored, too. It is agreed on all sides, and in all quarters of the House, that some Bill is indeed necessary but this Bill is an ill-conceived and mischievous Bill in its present form. I once more appeal to the Government to show that at least, if they are not in touch with feeling in the country, they are conscious of the feeling in the House to-day as expressed by every Member who has spoken and urge them to withdraw the Bill and reintroduce it in amended form in due course.
  6.23 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Hutchinson: I find myself in rather a singular position. I take a less unfavourable view of this Bill than any Member who has spoken hitherto on either side of the House. That does not mean that I regard this Bill as a perfect Bill. I accept the position which the Chancellor put to the House this morning that the Bill will certainly require very extensive amendment on the Committee stage before it becomes wholly acceptable. But it is conceded on both sides of the House that a Bill of this sort is necessary. It is, I suppose, possible to take the view that matters might be allowed to take their course. But no Member has hitherto expressed that view. Therefore, we seem to be agreed that some Bill of this sort is required.
  The question is whether this Bill is such a bad Bill that we ought to reject
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  it altogether. My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) says that we should. He says "Restore Britain whatever the cost may be." That is the view which will find fairly general acceptance on both sides of the House. Or is this such a bad Bill that it ought to be withdrawn now and re-introduced, with the Amendments which the Chancellor said are required.
  I invite the House to approach this Bill from a rather different standpoint; to disregard the detailed criticism of the Bill and to examine the principles upon which it is based, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford (Mr. Etherton) referred. I take a different view of those principles from the views which he has expressed. I find in this Bill something which I regard as a very great advance on the procedure for the compulsory acquisition of property which is usually adopted in legislation conferring upon Government Departments rights of compulsory acquisition. This Bill marks a valuable advance in the view which the Government take of the rights of individuals to a proper and a judicial determination of their case before their property is taken from them by compulsory acquisition.
  I, for my part, welcome the provisions that I find in this Bill. It is proposed to set up a War Works Commission. That body appears to me to be intended to be an independent body and of a semi-judicial character. Hon. Members have expressed considerable dissatisfaction with the constitution and with the procedure which it is proposed that this War Works Commission should follow. I must say that I feel a good deal of sympathy with much of the criticism which has been expressed. But it remains plain that the intention of the Government is that this body should not be an administrative body but a body having a semi-judicial character. That marks a notable advance in our ideas about compulsory acquisition in the House of Commons.
  I confess that I find it difficult to understand the view expressed by the Chancellor this morning that, because questions of Government policy might be involved in the cases which come before this Commission, therefore cases involving such questions ought to be withdrawn from the Commission altogether. Why is it that Government Departments are so reluctant

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  that their cases should be brought before independent or judicial tribunals? It is not a new feature. I see no reason why a semi-judicial, independent tribunal such as is contemplated under this Bill should not be able to determine whether questions of Government policy are involved in the cases which come before it or whether they are not and I should have thought that that question was a very proper question which might have been left to the Commission.
  There is one other thing which I desire to say about the procedure for this intended Commission. It is not intended that the Commission itself should hear the cases which would be brought before it. It is to have recourse to that system which has usually been adopted of holding a public local inquiry, not presided over by one of the commissioners but by an inspector whose duty it is to make a report to the Commission. I hope that on the Committee stage my right hon. Friend will be prepared to agree that this Commission should be so constituted that at least one of the commissioners will be present and will preside over the hearing of the cases which will be brought before it. This system of inquiry by a person who has no power to give any decision and whose duties are limited to making a report to some other person, who does not see the witnesses himself and depends for his knowledge of the case entirely on what is reported to him by a third party, is not a proper or suitable judicial proceeding.
  I am sure that my hon. and learned Friend will agree with that. One of the essential elements of a judicial proceeding is that a person should have the right to appear before the individual who has to give the decision in his case, and the right to be heard by him. I hope that at the Committee stage we shall see that this War Works Commission is a body which will deal with the business which comes before it in that way.
  There is one other point to which I desire to refer to briefly. I welcome this Bill because it recognises that different considerations apply to the acquisition of dwelling houses from those which apply to other forms of property. That difference was recognised very clearly by this House in the Town and Country Planning Bill of last Session. My learned Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hughes)
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  made some reference to it at an earlier stage in the Debate. He was prepared to agree that some distinction should be drawn between the powers of acquisition of a dwelling house and of other forms of property. But he asked that the definition of a dwelling house should be qualified. The reason why it has not been qualified is probably because it is very difficult to determine who is to be regarded as the person who is to be protected by this special provision. Therefore, I think that the Bill is right not to attempt to limit too precisely the persons who are are to be regarded as the owners or occupiers of the dwelling house or the persons entitled to enjoy this special protection.
  My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hughes) was good enough to refer to some contribution which I have ventured to make to the public discussion of this matter. I was astonished to hear him say that he was not prepared to agree that persons whose property was to be taken by compulsory powers ought to have the right to a judicial investigation before their property was taken. It seems to me that the great merit of this Bill is that it takes the opposite view. This Bill, whatever its shortcomings, seems to me to recognise clearly the proper approach which the Government ought to take to this matter, and it is for that reason that I welcome it and, if it goes to the Division, I shall vote for it.
  6.34 p.m.
  Lieut. - Commander Joynson - Hicks: As one of the Members whose names appeared on the Amendment for the rejection of this Bill, I was firmly of the opinion that the Bill should be rejected until after I had heard the Chancellor's speech. Ever since then, I have been asking myself what is left to reject in the Bill. There must, I feel, be something, and undoubtedly there is the Title. The Title is a bad one. I sometimes wonder who selects the Titles of the Bills because I find it difficult to conceive a worse selection of Bill Titles than those which are usually presented. However, because the Title is bad, I do not myself consider that that is sufficient reason for voting against the Government on the Second Reading of the Bill.
  What is the primary object of this Bill? As I understand, it is to regulate the restoration of the requisitioned land, and

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  land which has been used by the Government during the war and to do so in an orderly and proper manner. The emphasis as I see it is upon the word "restoration." That I believe is the Bill's primary object and intention. It is an amenity intention, but what we really have is a financial Measure. I understood that it had been decided not long ago, in fact I think it was during the last Debate upon the Finance Bill, that finance was to be the servant and not the master of our policy, but clearly I think this Bill shows that the matter has got out of hand again, and that finance is once more becoming the master of policy and not its servant.
  There is another matter in which I differ from the hon. and learned Member who has just spoken, and that is on the fundamental objects of this Bill, which I consider to be the over-riding of private rights. I have no doubt it is proper that public interests should be supreme where they clash with private rights, but it is not proper that private rights should be supplanted and taken over by the Government, when it is not essential for public policy and public interests. I feel that this fundamental point is a grave one. It goes to the root of the whole question, and I cannot see how it is possible to amend this Bill, and shape it into satisfactory form in the Committee stage. But I feel that the assurances which we have had from the Chancellor go such an extraordinarily long way, that it may be possible, even now, to implement the steps which will be necessary, if we are to reinstate what this Bill does away with—the general effect, as the hon. and gallant Member for East Grinstead (Colonel Clarke) pointed out of the Barlow, Uthwatt and Scott Reports—and if we are to restore the principles of civil rights, and, finally, if we are to put the Treasury in its proper place. That is going to be a very big undertaking on the Committee stage.
  There is another point about which I am rather anxious. I have the greatest respect for the integrity of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and we all know that when he gives assurances, he will do everything in his power to see that those assurances are carried out. Only last week we were, in this House, taking a rather strong line against this principle which is creeping in of Government by Ministerial assurance. I share the view
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  already expressed that it is essential that the assurances we have been given should be implemented in the Bill by Amendment. It is not right for any Government Department to hold powers which are vastly more extensive than those which it is intended for them to use.
  The Chancellor mentioned this morning that in the vast majority of cases the works would not be handed back. All that is needed is a comparatively small Bill for a minority of the works. What we have is a very big Bill for the majority of the works which will be handed back, and for which a Bill will not be required. All that superfluous power which is placed in the hands of the Department in question is contrary to all principles of government, and I urge the Government to recognise that point of view and not retain powers which it is not intended shall be used. It is upon the assumption that Amendments will be accepted which wilt fundamentally alter the whole conception of the Bill, and incorporate the assurances we have been given, that I, for one, will not oppose the Second Reading.
  6.41 p.m.
  Captain Duncan: The Attorney-General, who is to reply to this Debate, at any rate cannot start his speech by saying, as Ministers so often do in replying to Debates, that the Government are gratified by the reception which this Bill has received, because practically every speech to which I have listened has been highly critical of the Bill. I believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a grave mistake on political and procedure grounds, and if this Bill has had a bad reception to-day it is the Chancellor's own fault. He knew quite well, he had had representations made to him from various quarters, he had been told the points that were to be raised, he had been given opportunities of withdrawing the Bill and rewriting it with the Amendments to which he has referred, or even of introducing the Bill and placing the Amendments on the Order Paper, as we are allowed to do nowadays, so that Members could see in advance what the Minister's intended Amendments would be, but he took none of those courses.
  Mr. Turton: If I may interrupt my hon. and gallant Friend, I would point out that the Chancellor also had the opportunity

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  of adding his name to the Amendments already on the Paper which deal with the very concessions he has promised to-day.
  Captain Duncan: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for mentioning that other course which the Chancellor could have taken. However, he took none of those courses, and if the Bill has met with a bad reception to-day, it is entirely his own fault. On the merits of the Bill, at this late hour, I will not say very much, but I ought to say a few words about the Commission. If the House will look at Clause 1, which deals with the setting up of the Commission, and the Clause dealing with the terms of reference, it will be seen that the Commission is set up by the Treasury, and the terms of reference, except for the words "relevant considerations" are mainly financial. That may be all right to us here in this House, but to the public outside it would appear to be purely a financial transaction, and in legislation to-day, when we have an intelligent public watching our actions very closely, I feel that not only must legislation say what it means but it really must say what the public want it to mean. It is no good misleading them, and I submit that there is a mistake in the public mind, which is a very reasonable mistake to make, that this Bill is purely a financial Measure. I do not believe this is primarily a financial Measure; it is not intended to be, but it is intended to take into consideration the question of agriculture, town planning, and all the rest of it, and the words "relevant considerations" are intended to cover it. We must amend the Bill on the Committee stage to see that that view is fully met. It is that sort of misunderstanding which the public have got into their heads and it will take a long time to get it out of their heads.
  One other word on the setting up of the Commission. As the Bill is drawn now—I know there are to be certain Amendments—it seems to me that insufficient publicity is given to those who are interested in the land or the works concerned. There ought to be adequate publicity about the sittings of the Commission, and there certainly ought to be rights of being heard not only for those having an interest in the plan, but those who are likely to be injuriously affected by any decision of the Commission. I hope therefore that an Amendment on
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  those lines will be moved by the Government. Those likely to be injuriously affected include not only such societies as the National Trust and the Council for the Preservation of Rural England but local authorities, who are very greatly interested from the town and country planning point of view.
  Another thing about this Bill which has been cleared up to-day, but was not clear before, was the fact that the vast majority of these works, and the land concerned, are in defence areas. It covers, as I understand it, not only barracks, military hospitals, gun sites, searchlight sites and so on, but every form of defence work which it is proposed or may be proposed to maintain. Under the Defence Acts the Government already have complete power to do what they like—acquire, sell, exchange or anything else—and I am hoping in the course of the Committee stage that we shall amend certain of the provisions of the Defence Acts so that the Government shall not have such tremendous power to sell and exchange—although they may rightly have the power to buy for security reasons—land which they have been using for defence work but which they no longer intend to use for that purpose.
  I want to ask if there will be sufficient delay between the Second Reading of this Bill and the Committee stage to allow local authorities to be consulted. I know there have been certain consultations, but there is still a good deal of misunderstanding by local authorities as to the implications of this Bill. Therefore, I would ask the Government to delay the Committee stage until those consultations have taken place in order that the local authorities really know where they stand, not on the Bill as written but as the Bill is written plus the Amendments about which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has given so many assurances to-day.
  I will end on this further point. The Bill, as drawn, makes it possible for the owners of land to come to arrangements with a Government Department whereby they get their money back on condition—I think it is implied—that they reinstate, but in cases where the Government acquire the land there is no guarantee by the Government that that land will be reinstated or restored. I should like to see some provision in the Bill not only to make owners restore or reinstate their land

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  but in cases where the Government acquire the land, that they will carry out the reinstatement forthwith. Otherwise there will be thousands of acres in this country left derelict, and I think it is not in the interests of town planning or anything else that the scars of war should remain on the land for years and years to come.
  6.50 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel Marlowe: The main difficulty which I think the House is in at the moment is that it is endeavouring at one and the same time to discuss two entirely different Bills. One is the printed Bill which we have before us, and the other is that which the Chancellor of the Exchequer expounded to-day. They bear no relation to each other, and it makes it a little difficult for us to determine exactly what it is we are talking about. I think that the Attorney-General may have received a little chill comfort from the speech of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ilford (Mr. Hutchinson), whose voice was almost the only approving voice which has fallen upon his ears during the last three hours. I want particularly to refer to that speech, because my hon. and learned Friend dealt with the matter of the functions of the Commission, which are referred to in the Bill which is in print, and not the Bill which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was talking about this morning. My hon. and learned Friend explained that this would be a semi-judicial body, and also told us of various matters which, he said, he had always been brought up to believe. I feel sure that one of the things he was brought up to believe was that a tribunal which has to determine rights as between different parties must be a judicial body. I do not know what he means by "semi-judicial." This tribunal either ought to be a judicial body or not. To be assured that it is half a judicial body does not warm my heart towards it any more than it did when I first read of it in the printed Bill.
  Regarding the general approach which this Bill makes towards the functions of this Commission, Clause 2, subsection (3) states:
  "… the commission shall … cause such inquiries to be made, and give to such persons such opportunities of making oral or written representations as the Commission think fit. …"
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  Those words are symptomatic of the whole attitude of this Bill. Why should not people, who have objections, have their considerations taken into account? Under the Bill as it stands they can only be heard if the Commission thinks fit. It does not appear to matter whether the objectors think fit or not. Similarly, under Clause 9 the overriding power which is given to the Minister is exercisable merely if one of the grounds is that which is specified in the Clause. It means that it does not matter whether the Commission reject on another ground. If the Minister has originally claimed on the overriding ground he can reject the advice. So he has only to include that ground among others to be able to override the Commission every time.
  Many speakers who have taken part in this Debate have referred to the open spaces in which they are particularly interested. Each one has been notable for its loveliness, its fame, its spaciousness, or for some other reason. I want particularly to defend one which has all the qualities which have been referred to in excelsis. I am particularly interested in the effect of this Bill on the South Downs of Sussex. They have been used for war purposes, and so far as I can see there is not the slightest reason, under the powers in this Bill as it exists, why they should not be taken away from us for ever. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chichester (Lieut.-Commander Joynson-Hicks) referred to private rights. I am not concerned at this moment to defend private rights; I am dealing with public rights, the rights of the public to have access to that lovely bit of country in the South Downs, and I hope this Bill will not be left in such a form as will deprive us of that loveliness. In conclusion, it seems to me that it would have been far better if the Chancellor had committed to paper the Bill which he outlined this morning. If he had done so it would have been considerably easier for us to have known precisely what we were debating.
  6.55 p.m.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Donald Somervell): The speech of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has, on the whole, received more commendation in the course of this Debate than the Bill which he introduced this morning. I had better do my best with the latter. The first point I wish to make

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  is directed to the suggestion which has come from a good many speakers—and I hope Members will forgive me if I do not mention them all by name, but I have done my best to pick up the various points which have been made and my right hon. Friend will, of course, study very carefully everything which has been said in the course of the Debate—that my right hon. Friend's statement this morning, together with the modifications, alterations and omissions to which he agreed, has, in effect, altered the principles of the Bill. I repudiate that completely. I wish to he as conciliatory as possible to all the suggestions which have been put forward, but, believe me, it is a very difficult problem. This Bill has been described by one speaker as a relic of the Victorian laissez faire, by another as totalitarian, and by my hon. Friend the Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. G. White) as a disorderly incursion, I assume, into an otherwise well ordered universe.
  The fact is that the war, and the pressure and necessities of war, have compelled the Government to take property and spend the taxpayers' money on factories, buildings and works of all kinds, at a moment's notice, without, of course, the inquiry and consideration which would be devoted to such matters in peace-time. We are faced with vast areas where works have been put up, and it is necessary to do our best to see how the various interests affected—owners, public and financial—can be safeguarded and dealt with. My right hon. Friend agreed first of all that Clause 6 (1, a) should go, but that is not a question of principle. He explained the special class of case to cover which that Clause and Sub-section were inserted. There were a limited number of cases in which it was thought that it might be proper to have this power, but I think we can probably deal with them in other ways, and we are quite content that it should go. With regard to Clause 11 (5, b) which provides for direction for the Commission with regard to dwelling houses where they are entitled to take into account the fact that damage to the house has been of such extent that the cost of restoring it would be greater than the value, there, again, that is not a point of principle. A misapprehension existed in the minds of some speakers in regard to Clause 11 (5). Unless (a), (b) and (c)—now it will be (a) and (c)—exists the Com-
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  mission have got to recommend that the dwelling house be cut out.
  They have to address themselves to the question, Aye or No, Should it be cut out if (a) or (c) exists? That is a minor though a very important point in dealing with the question. Then there is the fact that there should be something in the nature of a negative resolution when the Minister disagrees with the Commission. That is not a great question of principle. It is important, but it does not alter the main structure of the Bill. Again, the right of societies, such as the Commons Preservation Society, and local authorities, to go to the Commission is very important, but it does not alter the whole construction of the Bill. Therefore, I would suggest, respectfully and conciliatorily, that really the main outline of the Bill remains as when my right hon. Friend asked the House to give it a Second Reading.
  What is the main outline of the Bill, and is there any justification for the suggestion that we should withdraw it and redraft it? Everyone agrees that there must be a Bill of this kind and that it is a matter of some urgency. My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) said the Government undertook not to bring in controversial legislation, but I do not think the Government ever undertook that they would not bring in legislation which was necessary in the circumstances in which the country found itself, and a Bill dealing with the acquisition of land is necessarily fairly urgent and, I am sorry to say, is bound to be controversial. Of course, as my right hon. Friend explained, the broad picture which the Government and the House have to face up to is that a very large amount of money has been spent and buildings have been erected on land which does not belong to the State. That is the big problem with which we have to deal. In those circumstances, something very much in the nature of 5 (a) is very necessary. Let me take the most unpopular one first. There is perhaps waste land, or land of very little value, which has been requisitioned and there has been built on it a factory, or some other building, worth £200,000 or £300,000—if it is worth nothing, there is no point in acquiring it under 5 (a)—which it is proper to leave there. There is no objection, planning or otherwise. Every one will say it must remain. As the law

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  stands, it would go back as a present to the owner of the small amount of land that has been requisitioned. There must be power to preserve that value. Under this power it goes to the Commission and their decision is final. It is said that there ought not to be powers similar to those set out in 5 (1, b) and (1, c). Factories have been put up which it is not necessary should be 100 per cent: ordnance factories but which should be under such control as to be available, if necessary, for shadow factories. The taxpayers have paid for them and there must be proper safeguards. The right to use any works, or to determine the use to which they are put, should be in the Government representing themselves, whose money has built the work. I believe that is right in principle.
  I come to Clause 6. This is the other side of the picture—not the financial but the restoration side. I ask those who say this is purely finance to reconsider their views. If the taxpayers have put up a factory and it is necessary in the public interest that it should remain either for use or for control, surely they have a right to say the Government must have that power. As my right hon. Friend explained, at present the amount that we can give by way of compensation for restoration is limited by the value. Clause 47 enables us to go beyond that. No one objects to that. But that is not the Treasury trying to pick up odd pounds here and there. The Bill enables us to give greater compensation than we can give at present, provided that we are satisfied that it will be used for restoration. There is another affirmative amenity provision under 6 (1, b) by which land can be bought if it is desirable in the public interest that it should be dealt with in a particular manner, with a view to the total or partial rehabilitation thereof, and the land is only likely to be dealt with in that manner if it is acquired. There may be cases where the owners are not prepared to give the necessary assurances under Clause 47. There may be a case where there is a multiplicity of small owners and it is difficult to get them all to come in. There may be cases where the use of the land makes it impossible to restore it but where it may be put to some other use. I was told by one hon. Member that certain types of land cannot be used for agricultural purposes after
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  there has been tank training. I was informed that shingle is found on top and the only thing that can be done is to afforest the land and that it cannot be restored to its original purpose. Although I am not complaining of people saying this is financial, when we come to look into it we find that, although it deals with financial considerations and with the public aspect of the question that it contains positive provisions to enable the Government to have the money and to spend it on restoration. My right hon. Friend said that it is the Government's policy wherever practicable to effect restoration. I have been asked one or two specific questions on that which I will deal with later.
  I pass from that general bird's eye view of the Bill to one or two other questions. A good many speeches have been directed to the Commission. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newbury (Brigadier-General Clifton Brown), my hon. Friend the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Key) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Brighton (Lieut.-Colonel Marlowe) referred to it. My hon. Friend the Member for Bow and Bromley referred to the financial side, and suggested that it was too largely a financial Bill. What I have said about that was very much directed to the criticisms he made. I would strongly repudiate the notion that because a Commission is appointed by the Treasury, it is not an independent and impartial body taking into account all proper considerations. We have the War Damage Commission, which has functioned to the general satisfaction of the House, of the public and of those with whom it has had to deal. It is not intended that the Commission should be a wholly judicial body. From the point of view of this House, the fact of it being appointed by the Treasury is that, if you do not like its composition, you can shoot at my right hon. Friend, and I should have thought that was an advantage. Indeed, in this Debate suggestions have been made as to the type of people who should be on the Commission. That is a very relevant question to address my right hon. Friend if he is going to appoint it, but such questions could not be raised if that power were taken out of his hands.
  This is a matter which will be discussed in Committee, and I do not want to take too long about it. There is a great deal

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  to be said for leaving it as it is. My right hon. Friend has explained his intentions, with which I think the House agrees, and we shall be able to discuss the way the Commission does its work. This is where my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ilford (Mr. G. Hutchinson) comes in with the suggestion that there should be a Commission to deal with these matters over a very large area of the ground. The appointment of the Commission is another principle in this Bill which we ask the House to affirm on Second Reading. There has been some difference between the critics as to whether the Commission's findings should be absolute on questions of policy. My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) made a very well informed and deeply felt, and also a well reasoned, speech. It was a very fair speech in facing the difficulties which this problem presents. In the things that he said he agreed it was necessary to have a Bill, and I felt that the gap between us was not a very great one, He took the view, and I agree with him, that there were constitutional objections to saying that the Commission should have the last word where questions of policy are involved.
  This is one of those questions which goes backwards and forwards. One of the first Bills in the discussion of which I was ever asked to take part on this bench, was the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1934. The great apprehension there was that the Unemployment Assistance Board was to be independent of the Minister. Therefore people did not like it. I agree that each case has to be considered on its merits. In some cases it is a good thing to have an independent body whose word is final. In some cases that would be wrong, for it would take away the control of this House over the Executive and would delegate the power to have the final word to a body appointed once and for all. We have drawn a line in this Bill, and we believe we have drawn it in the right place, but this is a matter for discussion later. The Commission's word is final under Clause 5 (1, a) on finance; it is final on the amount of compensation under the highway Clause; it it final under Clause 6 (1, b) dealing with purchase for rehabilitation; and it is final on the dwelling house. It is not final under Clause 5 (1, b) and (1, c) and in certain other
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  matters where the Minister says, "I think this power ought to be exercised in the public interest" and then disagrees with the report. There is then the possibility of control by this House, and the responsibility has to rest, ultimately, on the shoulders of those who sit on this bench and not on the shoulders of the Commission.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton referred to the powers of the Secretary of State for Air under the Air Navigation Act. The position, as I understand it, is that if any existing aerodrome is desired to be purchased for a civil aerodrome or for handing over to a local authority for use as a civil aerodrome, the powers under this Bill will be used, for the very good reason that, if the Secretary of State used his powers under the Air Navigation Act, he would have to pay the owner for the aerodrome that he himself has set up with State money.
  Mr. Turton: Supposing he wanted to get land to use for other purposes, he could use his powers under the Air Navigation Act, or he could buy an aerodrome under that Act without using the protection of this Bill at all.
  The Attorney-General: This Bill does not cut down his existing powers under the Air Navigation Act. All I was saying was that if he was proposing to buy for civil purposes an aerodrome which he has provided during the war, he would use. this Bill. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the New Forest (Major Mills) asked about commoners' rights. Those refer to Crown land, so that the main purpose of the Bill does not arise. I am told, and I think it is right, that there is no power under this Bill, it being Crown land, to buy out the commoners' rights. There are certain powers under the Defence Acts which are left untouched, under which commoners' rights may be bought out, but I do not think that this Bill places those rights in any jeopardy.
  Mr. Price: What about commoners' rights on land which is not Crown property?
  The Attorney-General: That is a different thing. My right hon. Friend has understood from those who are particularly interested in this problem of common rights and open spaces that their

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  main apprehension arose under Clause 6 (1, a). That was, as he explained, the reason which led him to say that he was willing to delete that provision, which he certainly never intended for that use and which he was satisfied was not essential to the main purpose of the Bill. It has been suggested that there are other Clauses under which common rights might be affected. That question to a large extent depends on the nature of the work that has been done. I can assure my hon. Friends that if there is such a danger under other Clauses, my right hon. Friend will give the most sympathetic consideration to suggestions which may be put forward.
  Colonel Clarke: Can the Attorney-General say whether, if common land is taken, an alternative piece of land will be given?
  The Attorney-General: Under the Bill at present, there is no statutory provision unless the land is bought by a local authority. I àm not quite sure in how many cases commons have beeen used in a way which would be likely to give rise to that situation. The main commons cases are those which have been used for training and so on, and the main apprehension was that they might have been brought under Clause 6 (1, a) on the ground that the cost of repair—
  Colonel Clarke: There are large numbers of camps on them, and hospitals.
  Mr. Edmund Harvey: Would the Attorney-General say whether the Government are willing to make an Amendment to provide, where necessary, that commons shall—
  The Attorney-General: I must interrupt my hon. Friend. I am afraid I cannot do so. I hope my hon. Friends will listen to my arguments on this very complicated question. I can say on behalf of my right hon. Friend that he will give the most sympathetic consideration to any suggestion that may be made where common rights are or might be jeopardised under the Bill. I cannot now deal with all the points which were emphasised with his usual vigour by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pick-thorn), but we shall discuss them at a later stage.
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  The reason why the Minister of Town and Country Planning, and planning itself, were not mentioned in Clause 11 was twofold. We believe there is some constitutional objection to saying that one Minister must consult some other Minister. There was considerable discussion on the point a few years ago. We put "all relevant considerations" into Clause II and we certainly—is my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) here? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] I see; he is hiding behind Cambridge. I was saying that we certainly shall look again at those words, and I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. Once you start making a list, however, you tend to suggest that what is not in the list, does not matter. That is the real danger. My right hon. Friend is quite willing that there should be an extension of Clause 11. There are many things which the Commission ought to consider. As to puting in any reference to the Minister of Town and Country Planning, that is a matter we shall discuss, although the Minister has been consulted at all stages of the Bill. There will be further discussions in the course of all the action which is taken under it—and I include the Minister of Agriculture. Whether it is right to mention them in the Bill is a matter that I cannot discuss in a minute.
  I have endeavoured to give the House a fair view of the Bill. I believe it is on right and necessary lines and I ask hon. Members to give it a Second Reading. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Mahon will see his way to withdraw his Amendment. We are very anxious to deal on the Committee stage with all legitimate points. There is a problem here to be dealt with. It is difficult, but we shall endeavour to get it done in such a way that nobody can say that the power will be used in any circumstances in the way that has been objected to.
  Mr. Turton: I do not want to spoil the Attorney-General's peroration but I would ask him whether he can give us an assurance that the position under the Air Navigation Act, 1936, can be dealt with at a later stage.
  The Attorney-General: I am not at all clear what my hon. Friend's point is on this matter. That is my trouble. The powers under the Air Navigation Act remain, and I do not suppose that anybody

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  at the moment wants to alter them. Under the Bill, an aerodrome which comes within its main lines can be dealt with. If it is desirable to use an aerodrome constructed during the war as a civil aerodrome, I think the powers under the Bill would be used, because otherwise the Air Minister or the Government would be paying for it twice over. I do not wish to make a peroration. I commend the Bill to the House and I hope we shall get our Second Reading without a Division.
  Mr. Turton: In view of the concessions that have been made by the Chancellor, my hon. Friends and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment. We shall fight the Bill on the Committee stage.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House.—[Mr. Beechman.]
  Committee upon Tuesday next.

  REQUISITIONED LAND AND WAR WORKS [MONEY]
  Considered in Committee, under Standing Order No. 69.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]
  Resolved:
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to authorise the acquisition of certain land used or dealt with for war purposes and to make other provision as to such land, to remove doubts as to the powers of certain Ministers to acquire land under the Defence Act, 1842, to amend certain of the enactments relating to compensation in respect of land, and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid, it is expedient to authorise the payment or repayment out of moneys provided by Parliament—

  (a) of the remuneration and allowances of the members, officers and servants of any Commission set up under the said Act of the present Session and any expenses incurred by any such Commission with the approval of the Treasury;

  (b) of, or of contributions in respect of,—

  (i) the cost of doing any work required to be done by any order made under the said Act of the present Session authorising the stopping up or diversion of a highway;

  (ii) any increased expenditure to be incurred which is ascribable to the doing of any such work or to the provision or improvement, before the making of the order, of any highway as a substitute for any highway stopped up under any such order; or

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  (iii) any compensation paid by the highway authority in respect of restrictions imposed under Section one or Section two of the Restriction of Ribbon Development Act, 1935, as respects any highway stopped up or diverted under any such order;

  (c) of any expenses incurred under or by virtue of the said Act of the present Session by any Minister (except so far as they are payable out of the Road Fund under any other Act);

  (d) of any compensation payable under or by virtue of the said Act of the present Session by any Minister;

  (e) of any increase attributable to the said Act of the present Session in any compensation payable by the Crown under any other Act; and

  (f) of any such increase in the sums payable into the Road Fund out of moneys provided by Parliament as is attributable to the passing of the said Act of the present Session;

  and the payment into the Exchequer of any sum paid under the said Act of the present Session to any Minister.—(King's recommendation signified.)—[Sir J. Anderson.]
  Resolution to be reported upon Tuesday next.

  FORTH ROAD BRIDGE
  Motion made, and Question proposed; "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Beechman.]
  7.28 p.m.
  Mr. Woodburn: In view of the extended Business which has been before the House I would gladly have postponed this Adjournment Debate but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that it would have been most undesirable, because since he gave his answer to me in the House regarding the Forth Road Bridge, there has been continuous uproar in Scotland on this question and that of the Prestwick airport. It has become necessary to put the matter properly to the Minister in order that some definite declaration might be obtained of a more prompt character than has so far been the case.
  Scotland welcomed the implied decision in the Minister's answer that the Government have agreed that a bridge is to be built over the Forth at Queensferry. If the answer does not mean that, we had better be clear about it after the Minister has replied. I shall proceed on the assumption that the Government have accepted the principle. What is unsatisfactory about the Government's reply is the suggestion

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  that some day in the future they will consider whether the preliminary arrangements can be made for going into the question of preparing plans and designs. That aspect of the matter has raised a great deal of feeling in Scotland and it is believed that there are influences that, somehow or other, want to delay the building of the bridge. There seems to be also an implication that the Severn Barrage and the Forth Bridge are alternatives. I would like to make it quite clear that we in Scotland are not considering the Forth Bridge in relation to priority over the Severn Barrage. We cannot see any reason why there should be conflict between these two propositions. Indeed, we see no reason why they cannot proceed simultaneously, and in whatever order may be expedient at the time.
  Scotland's own industrial resources could build this bridge. We have steelworks, we have engineers, we have heavy industries, and we have labour, and therefore, we ask nothing, so far as the material resources of the South are concerned, to build the bridge, except the Government's decision to go ahead. Indeed, I am prepared to go so far as to say that, if necessary, Scotland itself could provide the money. Since this matter has arisen, two people have approached me quite spontaneously, and suggested that they would provide some money to start a fund, which would become a national fund, for the building of this bridge. I suggest that if the Chancellor is prepared to allow Scotland to use its savings for this constructive purpose, instead of using them for the general national purpose, the money itself could be raised in Scotland, if that is the only way to build this bridge.
  The question is not as to the principle of the bridge being built, but one of urgency. If I mention one or two arguments on the matter of urgency, I hope they will receive serious consideration. The first is that this decision of procrastination, if there can be such a decision, has struck a blow at the whole planning which is in preparation in Scotland. The planning authorities both in the East and West are considering what are to be the economic conditions in which Scotland is to develop. Both in regard to Prestwick in the West, and the Forth Road Bridge in the East, these are vital considerations. I hope it may be possible
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  for Mr. Speaker, in the discussion tomorrow on the Scottish Town and Country Bill, to allow some questions to be raised with regard to the position of the Forth Bridge in relation to that planning. I would like to say to the Minister quite frankly that the position in this matter has almost brought to a standstill all the plans that were under consideration in the East of Scotland, and indeed for Scotland as a whole. The second point is that the Government have intimated a policy of full employment. Scotland sees no possibility of that full employment policy being successful if the heavy steel and iron industry of Scotland is to be denuded of the kind of work which this bridge would provide. It is true that immediately after the war it might not be possible to have steel and iron available, but it is a question not of immediate use of iron and steel, but of the intimation that it could be used when the time comes.
  The third point is that the bridge would save from 25 to 44 miles from the South at Edinburgh, to the North in Fife and right up towards Aberdeen. Even taking this at its most reasonable, a delivery van, for example, would save about three gallons of petrol each way, and two hours of time. At 7s. an hour it would mean a saving of 20s. each way in the case of a lorry. Against the actual waste of a driver and a lorry to go round the distance at present entailed by the journey, the lorry could go across the bridge in a matter of a quarter to half an hour. There are 200,000 vehicles licensed in the area affected. I am taking as an example right up the coast, that is, the places to which these vehicles might run. I am not saying that all these 200,000 vehicles will be running backwards and forwards across the bridge, but in 1936 there were 200,000 vehicles in the area affected.
  The next point is in regard to the policy of full employment after the war. This bridge would have a great effect on the mobility of labour, because in the past it has been found difficult, from Rosyth to the south of the Forth, to use the housing in one part of the area for labour for the other part. In the last war and in this war much of the labour has had to travel from Edinburgh to Rosyth. That is not a convenient journey, where the railway is so taken up with other kinds of traffic having greater priority. The population in the two districts on both

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  sides of the Forth is approximately 1,000,000. To suggest that there is no urgent need for a bridge, with 1,000,000 people affected on both sides of the Forth is fantastic.
  Scotland resents very much the fact that whenever anything in the way of a bridge is suggested for Scotland, economic justification must be proved. We never hear anything about economic justification for the making of great main roads, or in the case of many other projects before the Ministry. But let us assume that the economic question is important. It is estimated that there would be 1,000,000 crossings of vehicles over that bridge per year. At 3s. a head, that would bring in over £300,000. If money is available at the rate which the Chancellor says will be charged for public purposes, that would be enough to provide a £6,000,000 road bridge—because the new bridge will be much more expensive, with the wider crossings, than the one proposed before the war.
  Mr. McKinlay (Dumbartonshire): My hon. Friend is not suggesting a toll bridge?
  Mr. Woodburn: We are prepared to pay tolls if necessary in order to have a bridge.
  Mr. McKinlay: What about having tolls for Waterloo Bridge?
  Mr. Woodburn: In Scotland we are prepared to pay tolls if they have to be paid. We do not want that made an excuse. The Scottish Coal Report has just been published. On both sides of the Forth there are great coal seams to be developed. The next major point is that Edinburgh is the capital of Scotland, and its routes approach it only from the south and the west. It is barred on the east by the sea, and on the north by the Firth of Forth. It seems quite unjustifiable that this great main road, the A.1 road of this country, should come to a sudden stop at that point, and make a 44-mile detour around the Firth of Forth. It is true that a new bridge has been started, but it has made little contribution to that main problem. The Forth railway bridge was an economic proposition 50 years ago, and everybody realises that if, in the first great raid of this war, that bridge had been destroyed, it would have had to be rebuilt, so vital is it. There is a suspicion that the railways are acting in a dog-in-
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  the-manger manner in regard to this road bridge. There have been so many red herrings that there is a suspicion that there are some obstacles behind the scenes, which prevent full consideration of the scheme. If the railways have an objection they ought to let it he known, and if they have no objection they ought to make their position on the matter clear to the public.
  I want the Minister to get from the Government a decision that the plans can be started at once, unless it can be shown that the civil engineers to whom we have been referred for plans are not available and able to plan the work. If they are available there is no justification for not proceeding with the plans immediately. The second point is that the necessary preliminaries should be organised in industry. There should be a survey of where the work is to be done, the necessary firms should be asked to tender, and it should be ascertained what preparations can be made in the meantime, so that, as and when the actual work becomes desirable, in the national policy of full employment, the actual manufacture of the goods could be commenced without delay. Immediate attention should also be given to the necessary road connèctions, because all local authorities will have to be associated in helping the Ministry to plan the roads to and from this bridge.
  So far as I am aware, all Scottish Members of Parliament of all parties are behind the policy that I am putting forward to the Minister. Scottish people regard the air services at Prestwick and the construction of the Forth Road Bridge as symbols of the Government's sincerity in developing Scotland after the war. Scotland itself is prepared to contribute to this work, and we ask that the Minister should take an early opportunity of consulting the Government again and asking them to make a further decision. I understand that, so great has been the agitation in Scotland, even our friends in another place are likely to raise this matter direct with the Minister. In any case, he can take it that what I am saying now, so far as the Press, the local authorities, the Scottish Council of Industry and all the representative bodies of Scotland are concerned, is the view of the Scottish people.
  Someone, before this Debate began, was kind enough to hand me a quotation from Hazlitt, which runs:

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  "There are two things an Englishman understands—hard work and hard blows. Nothing short of these, generally speaking, excites his attention or interests him in the least."
  Well, Hazlitt was an Englishman and he ought to know, but I do not propose to indulge in either. I hope that reason may still prevail with the Government, and I ask my hon. Friend to do his best.
  7.42 p.m.
  Lord Douglass: I detain the House only for a moment to make it evident, in a physical sense, that my hon. Friend's claim that this is an all-party matter is the fact. On this side of the House, I think we feel that there is a very strong case for going ahead with the plans for this bridge. The hon. Gentleman has made his case, and I understand that there is a population of something like 1,000,000 to be served on either side of the Firth of Forth. On the economic side I think it is perfectly clear that, for those industries which use the roads in order to carry their goods, it would mean an immense saving in expense and especially in coal, and although I speak with reluctance as representing a Lanarkshire constituency, I think the fact that the Lanarkshire coalfields are on the decline, while the coalfields in East Lothian and Fife are going to be the coalfields of the future in Scotland, reinforces to an immense extent the case for having this bridge ready to serve both areas. I hope the Minister will listen with sympathy to the claim advanced from both sides of the House, which represents the universal opinion in Scotland.
  7.44 p.m.
  Mr. McLean Watson: I do not expect the Minister to make an adequate reply to the case put by my hon. Friend, but I wish to add my voice to those already raised in favour of the Government going on with this bridge. I have never seen public opinion in Scotland so stirred as it has been since the last reply which the Parliamentary Secretary gave to my hon. Friend the Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn). Public opinion in Scotland has been deeply stirred. Not only the newspapers, but public opinion generally, was most resentful of the statement made on the last occasion. For 20 years we in Scotland have been "diddled" over this question. It is 20 years since we had a Minister of Transport
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  who looked at this matter in a realistic fashion. At that time we had a Minister of Transport who recognised the advisability of taking some steps to ascertain whether or not a road bridge was an engineering possibility, and he in conjunction with the local authorities in the immediate neighbourhood, came to an agreement that £10,000 should be spent on a survey of the Forth in the neighbourhood of Queensferry to see if a bridge was a feasible proposition. A report was made and presented to this House, and although every Minister of Transport since that time has been approached by Scottish Members interested in this matter not one of them has given us the slightest hope that a road bridge would be constructed at Queensferry. I do not want my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to ride off on the fact that in Scotland we have different ideas as to where the bridge should be built. I hope that he will not let that go forward as an excuse for the Government not doing anything. There is not one of us who does not know that, if the Government make up their mind to build a bridge, they will get their engineers to say just where the bridge is to be built and to decide the type of bridge. We may have our own ideas where the bridge should be built but I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will not take the slightest cognisance of the fact that we have various opinions on this matter. There is one other thing I want to say. I will allow the Minister 10 minutes in which to reply.
  Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: He has not To minutes available now.
  Mr. Watson: The other thing I want to say is that, in addition to a road bridge, there is a proposal that there should be a combined road and rail bridge. The present rail bridge cannot take the whole of the traffic that ought to be passing between North and South. I hope that the Government,- when they are considering the question of a road bridge, will take into consideration the possibility of a rail bridge being constructed and a joint arrangement between the Government and the railway companies. I want to give my hon. Friend time to reply.
  7.48 p.m.
  Mr. Francis Watt: I think that I can say in less than one minute all that is necessary in this

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  matter. I am a representative of one of the Divisions of the city of Edinburgh and I can say for the whole city that it stands solidly behind the hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) in the speech he has made to-night. The bridge is a very vital thing for Edinburgh—I do not merely speak for myself but, I believe, for the whole of Scotland—and I hope that the Government recognise the gravity of the situation and that this matter will not be postponed.
  7.49 p.m.
  Captain McEwen: I will confine what I have to say to one minute. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary realises as an Englishman that, in contrast to olden times, when the dividing line in Scotland ran horizontally from East to West between the Highlands and the Lowlands, now the line runs North and South, and that these two problems—the Prestwick Aerodrome and the Forth Road Bridge—being definitely concerned one with the East and the other with the West of that country require to be considered as one. I trust we may have an opportunity, as the hon. Gentleman has said, to discuss this at greater length on another occasion. Time is too short now, but I hope to get to-night from the hon. Gentleman some statement which is not hedged about with "perhaps" and "may be's" as we have had already. The other day, when the Minister of Aircraft Production wound up and we were all full of hope that we would hear something of value, all we heard was that perhaps Prestwick would perhaps be one of the aerodromes that would remain after the war. It is on those grounds and for the reasons which have been given by hon. Gentlemen this evening, and many others if we had time to give them, that I trust we may hear some good news from the hon. Gentleman to-night.
  7.51 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker): The hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) who opened this Debate kept his promise not to use hard words and hard blows, but even an Englishman who follows the Scottish Press is able to understand that there are people North of the Border, who would like, if they could, to use both hard words and hard blows upon this subject. I hope the
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  House will not think I am guilty of discourtesy, and I hope the critics of my Ministry in Scotland will not think I have treated the matter in a cavalier way, if I fail to say anything to-night that is very new or very pleasing to those who want a firm decision that this bridge shall be built. I hope at least they will acquit me of any charge of having thought the matter less deserving of serious study than they think it is. In fact, I have done everything I can to understand it. I have examined memoranda and reports and plans and estimates and drawings. I have discussed it with high authorities. I have visited the site to try and envisage, as well as a non-technician can, the problems which it involves. No doubt I have done so in part under the stimulus provided by my hon. Friends who have asked me Questions and who have raised the matter on previous occasions on the Adjournment. But I had, in fact, begun to do so before they applied that stimulus at all. I hope that, as a result, I understand the arguments they use.
  I do understand that the local authorities are agreed on what they want and how they want it, and I would like to assure my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline (Mr. Watson) that I do not at all want to ride off, nor does my Noble Friend, on the fact that there is a rival plan to that of the McIntosh Rock which the local authorities have put up. I do think there is more work to be done on the basic planning before decisions can be made. I raised some points on the last occasion when we debated the matter which have not yet been taken into consideration. I do understand what has been urged by the Noble Lord to-night, that those who are planning Eastern Scotland want to know if there is to be a bridge. I do understand that they think the matter is greatly affected by the probable, perhaps the certain, development of the Eastern Fife coalfields in a relatively early future. I do understand the argument put forward by my hon. Friend who raised the matter about the saving in transport. Certainly, if the figures which he gave proved in practice to be right, they would mean beyond dispute—
  Woodburn: They represent the minimum.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I am not challenging the hon. Member at all. I only say, if they proved in practice to be right they

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  would mean a very considerable saving of imported fuel and imported rubber and a great saving of time and labour on the transport of goods and passengers across the Forth. I hope I understand all that. I am not sure, however, if I have made my hon. Friends understand my Noble Friend's position. No doubt if this bridge is built, a great sum of money will be asked for from Parliament by my Department. We have to answer for it as part of the general economic plan which the Government will have to carry out when the war is over. There will then be an immense diversion of our resources in, man-power, in raw materials, in industrial plant back to peace-time industry. There will be an immense programme of absolutely vital public works, deferred maintenance, new construction on existing works, the development of new works which do not exist at all but which are indispensably required. There is a great housing programme. There will be an immense programme of rehabilitation and new construction on the railways, new developments of a different kind. There will be municipal enterprises of many kinds. My Department will have an immense amount to do on the roads. The sum of £35,000,000 is required for deferred maintenance on roads alone, and the bill will not have been made less by the hard weather we have had this year. There will be great pressure on man-power, raw materials and industrial plant for some years after the war, and the Government will have to choose the public works which must be done first. Then we will have to consider the various crossings of the various estuaries which have been asked for. There have been demands for crossings over virtually every estuary around the coast. It is not only a question of the Severn Bridge, but also the Severn Barrage. Three crossings of the Tyne have been asked for, and Dundee presses
  192
  strongly for a crossing of the Tay, and so on.
  My hon. Friend opposite said that we should not listen to arguments about economic justification. Of course, from a long-period point of view, economic justification, in the old sense, is a very debatable matter, but in this immediate postwar period the Government will have to consider what works will most strengthen the general economic position of the country. That will be the basic principle. The Government will have to look for economic justification in that sense. I do not desire to prejudge or prejudice any of the arguments which have been used to-night, and I am not going to try to answer them. Maybe when the Government come to settle what public works they can do after the war it may be possible to do all kinds of things which at present seem most unlikely to be possible at once. But I am sure that the Government cannot pledge themselves to any general programme of works at the present time. It is not reasonable to ask them to do so at the very crisis of the war; and if they cannot decide the whole programme they cannot decide individual items. It is true that they have decided about the Severn, but I am sure my hon. Friend will not dispute the fact that the industrial rehabilitation of the South Wales region is perhaps the first of all the economic problems with which this country must deal. We do not think of the Severn as an alternative to the Forth. We say we cannot now decide the general programme or priorities, and I cannot go to-night beyond what I said in my answer to my hon. Friend's last Question on this subject. I will, of course, report this Debate to my Noble Friend, and he will consider what has been said.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Three Minutes before Eight o'Clock.

COAL INDUSTRY
  Statistics
  Statistics
  Household Coal (Quality)
  Household Coal (Quality)
  Point of Ayr Collieries
  Point of Ayr Collieries
  Directed Labour
  Directed Labour
  Mines Production Directors
  Mines Production Directors
  BRITISH FORCES (POST-WAR MEMORIALS)
  BRITISH FORCES (POST-WAR MEMORIALS)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Income Tax
  Income Tax
  Surtax
  Surtax
  Leases (Premiums, Taxation)
  Leases (Premiums, Taxation)
  Leap Year
  Leap Year
  Foodstuffs (Tax Receipts)
  Foodstuffs (Tax Receipts)
  WAR DAMAGE ACT
  WAR DAMAGE ACT
  OLD AGE PENSIONS
  OLD AGE PENSIONS
  EX-SERVICE PERSONNEL (WAR GRATUITIES)
  EX-SERVICE PERSONNEL (WAR GRATUITIES)
  SPANISH SUBJECT (DEPORTATION)
  SPANISH SUBJECT (DEPORTATION)
  FORESTRY (NORFOLK)
  FORESTRY (NORFOLK)
BRITISH ARMY
  Wounded Soldiers (Discharge)
  Wounded Soldiers (Discharge)
  Occupied German Districts (Police)
  Occupied German Districts (Police)
  Middlesex Yeomanry (Badges)
  Middlesex Yeomanry (Badges)
  Leave Trains (Refreshment Charges)
  Leave Trains (Refreshment Charges)
  Requisitioned Hall, Evesham
  Requisitioned Hall, Evesham
  Sapper (Sickness)
  Sapper (Sickness)
  M.E.F. (Postal Censorship)
  M.E.F. (Postal Censorship)
  Mails, Italy
  Mails, Italy
  Home Guard Training Officers
  Home Guard Training Officers
  Army Newspapers
  Army Newspapers
  Vaccination
  Vaccination
  Burma (Recuperative Leave)
  Burma (Recuperative Leave)
  Compassionate Telegrams
  Compassionate Telegrams
  BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR
  BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR
  FRANCE (BESIEGED GERMAN FORCES)
  FRANCE (BESIEGED GERMAN FORCES)
  ITALIAN PRISONERS OF WAR (BIRD SNARING)
  ITALIAN PRISONERS OF WAR (BIRD SNARING)
  SCOTLAND (PIER, PORTNAGURAN, ISLE OF LEWIS)
  SCOTLAND (PIER, PORTNAGURAN, ISLE OF LEWIS)
  DOMESTIC HEATING APPLIANCES (TESTS)
  DOMESTIC HEATING APPLIANCES (TESTS)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Tinplate Works, South Wales
  Tinplate Works, South Wales
  Rubber Teats
  Rubber Teats
  Distribution of Industry
  Distribution of Industry
  Ex-Food Traders (Licences)
  Ex-Food Traders (Licences)
  Educational Books (Paper Allocation)
  Educational Books (Paper Allocation)
  PARCEL POST, FRANCE
  PARCEL POST, FRANCE
  ALLIED AND LIBERATED COUNTRIES (RELIEF APPEALS)
  ALLIED AND LIBERATED COUNTRIES (RELIEF APPEALS)
INDIA
  British Forces (Income Tax)
  British Forces (Income Tax)
  Officers, Indian Army (Transfer)
  Officers, Indian Army (Transfer)
  ROYAL NAVY (PRIZE MONEY)
  ROYAL NAVY (PRIZE MONEY)
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (EXPLOSION INJURIES, COMPENSATION)
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (EXPLOSION INJURIES, COMPENSATION)
ROAD TRANSPORT
  Reflector Studs
  Reflector Studs
  Village Footpaths
  Village Footpaths
NATIONAL WAR EFFORT
  Vacancies (Advertisements)
  Vacancies (Advertisements)
  Directed Labour (Accountants)
  Directed Labour (Accountants)
  Printers
  Printers
  Higher Appointments
  Higher Appointments
  TEMPORARY HOUSING
  TEMPORARY HOUSING
  SOAP SUPPLIES, SOUTH WALES
  SOAP SUPPLIES, SOUTH WALES
  PUBLIC HEALTH (MIDWIVES)
  PUBLIC HEALTH (MIDWIVES)
Preamble
The House met at two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
  EXPORT GUARANTEES BILL.
  Brought from Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911, and read 1a.

WAGES COUNCILS BILL.
2.4 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, the Bill which I am now commending to your Lordships is one of the most important pieces of social legislation presented to Parliament during the war. It goes a long way towards ensuring that every low-paid wage-earner will receive either a legal or a moral guarantee of a reasonable weekly wage, and in so doing it carries a step further the important obligation of the modern State to provide a minimum standard of welfare for all its citizens by means of social services or by the statutory regulation of conditions of work. But apart from discharging an obligation that has long been accepted and implemented by all Parties and by Governments of all political complexions, it will do much to stabilize industrial relations during the difficult transitional period between war and peace. Your Lordships will remember the epidemic of strikes and lock-outs that followed the last war. We cannot afford another period of acute industrial unrest, for our livelihood will depend very largely on the capacity of our basic industries to compete at world prices in a world market, and their efficiency would be fatally impaired by widespread and recurrent wage disputes between employers and employed. Hence the vital importance of preventive action to expand, as
982
far as possible, the range of employment covered by collective agreements, to ensure against a temporary or permanent breakdown in existing negotiating machinery, and to leave no wide gaps in our industrial system that cannot be quickly covered either by voluntary collective agreements or, failing that, by decisions taken by a statutory body.
The Bill may be divided, for convenience of exposition, into three main divisions. These divisions do not, of course, correspond to the Parts of the Bill. The first brings up to date legislation relating to trade boards by giving these bodies the full significance they have acquired in practice and in law since the first Trade Boards Act was passed in 1909, a Bill which stands to the everlasting credit of the Liberal Government of that time. Trade boards in that Act were limited in scope to fixing the minimum hourly wages—6d. an hour for men and 2¾d. or 3¼d. for women—in certain sweated industries that had, at long last, aroused the conscience of Parliament. Since those early days, their activities have been increased and their potentialities have been realized, so that they now have responsibilities over a very wide field of industrial welfare, and are competent, among other things, to fix rates of overtime, to guarantee a minimum weekly wage, to provide for holidays with pay, and to advise on many subjects connected with the efficiency and well-being of industrial employees during their working hours. To mark the change that has come over trade boards in the last thirty years, a change that reflects a new attitude of society to the working man, it is proposed that they should henceforward be renamed "wages councils."
The second feature of this Bill provides additional procedure for establishing wages councils as a preventive measure when it is found that negotiating machinery is likely to break down and, as a result, a reasonable standard of wages will not be maintained. Hitherto the State has not been able to intervene to prevent voluntary machinery from falling to pieces, even when it was clear that the conditions resulting from the breakdown would make intervention inevitable in the long run. The State has been obliged to stand aside until a collapse in the wage structure has actually taken place. This Bill introduces an entirely new principle. It will enable the Minister to appoint an independent

983
commission of inquiry, either on his own initiative or on a joint application, when the first signs of disintegration of joint machinery begin to appear; and if this commission recommends the appointment of a wages council as the only way out of a deteriorating position, he will then be able to step in with a statutory body.
The third important feature of the Bill is that which makes temporary provision until 1950 for the observance by all employers of a fair wage. It will be obligatory for employers engaged in any trade or industry in which the standards of wages and conditions are not subject to statutory regulations but are settled by voluntary agreements entered into by representative organizations of both sides, to observe terms and conditions not less favourable than those agreed in the district. This will ensure that during the difficult years following the war industrial agreements concluded between trade unions and employers' organizations representing a substantial proportion of the employers and workers in a trade or industry in the same district, are accepted as a fair wage by all concerned. This will prevent the standards of the good employer from being undermined by newcomers seeking competitive advantages from low wages. I commend this Bill to your Lordships as a valuable addition to our code of social legislation and as a contribution at any rate to industrial peace after the war. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
2.12 p.m.
LORD SOUTHWOOD: My Lords, may I say that this Bill has the whole-hearted support of those sitting on these Benches. In our opinion it satisfies a very great need and we believe that it will hearten those who are at present serving in His Majesty's Forces. In saying this, however, we must not be regarded as giving unqualified approval to every clause as there are certain details in Clause 13 which may give rise to an Amendment in the Committee stage. None the less, we regard this as a good Bill and we hope the Second Reading will receive the full support of this House.
2.13 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, the noble Earl who has introduced this Bill
984
did not exaggerate when he said this is one of the most important social measures that has been introduced into Parliament in the course of this war, and to my mind it is strange that it has aroused so little attention in the public at large as well as in Parliament. That may be because it is not, happily, a controversial Bill. Another measure, which embodies very much the same principles limited to the catering trade, aroused very intense opposition but this Bill, which applies to a vast variety of industries, is going through Parliament almost unnoticed. It is, of course, none the worse for that. It seems to me an admirable measure.
The noble Earl mentioned that it was founded upon the precedents of the existing trade boards, which were due to an Act passed in 1909 by the Liberal Government of that day. That was a complete departure from the old laissez faire tendencies which had prevailed in the Liberal Party in the previous century. An Act of this kind for abolishing low wages in the sweated industries and to bring in the power of the law to do the work which in other trades had been done by
the trade unions was indeed a vast departure from previous tendencies. Again, in 1928, the Liberal Party appointed a special inquiry which resulted in the publication of a book Britain's Industrial Future which presented a policy for that time. Included in that policy was a principle very much like that which is now embodied in this Bill—namely, a much more wide extension of the measures adopted in the case of the Trade Boards Act of 1909. In those circumstances it is hardly necessary for me to say that this Bill receives the cordial support of the Liberal Party and is welcomed by noble Lords on these Benches.
2.15 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I would like, by permission of the House, to thank the two noble Lords who have spoken on this Bill both for their support of it and for the support of the important Parties which they represent. I should particularly like to thank my noble friend opposite, Lord Southwood, for drawing the attention of the Government to Clause 13 and for the need for altering it in the light of criticism that has been expressed. I should like to assure him that the Government intend to amend Clause 13 during the Committee stage of

985
the Bill. We take the view that, so long as the protection given to employees by the Truck Acts is in no way interfered with, certain deductions customarily made from a worker's pay at his own request should be included among the various deductions for the purpose of this clause.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

TEACHERS (SUPERANNUATION) BILL.
2.16 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC WARFARE (THE EARL OF SELBORNE): My Lords, this Bill can be described as a consequential Bill—consequential on the great Act which your Lordships passed last year. Its main purpose is to bring the superannuation legislation of teachers into conformity with the lay-out of the education system and with the new nomenclature adopted under the Education Act. For instance, under the Education Act "public elementary schools" and "certificated teachers" will cease to exist, but these terms are used in the existing superannuation legislation.
At the same time the Bill makes one or two small changes and improvements in teachers' pensions to which I ought to draw your Lordships' attention. One improvement that it makes will I am sure be welcome to many of your Lordships. It enables the full-time services of persons employed in running Youth Service clubs and community centres—and youth services conducted by grant-aided voluntary associations are included—those who give whole-time service to this admirable work (which is quasi-educational), to be treated as pensionable. Clauses 3 to 6 of the Bill are very involved and difficult for a layman to understand, but their effect is to enable all supplementary teachers to qualify for pensions. At present, through some extraordinary anomaly, only some supplementary teachers are eligible for pension. This Bill rectifies what is an obvious injustice.
The Second Schedule of the Bill enables teachers to be seconded for other work for a period of up to five years and yet to retain their pension rights. That I
986
think is a feature which will commend itself to my noble friend Lord Trenchard, for it is in conformity with some very interesting suggestions which he made to Your Lordships not long ago. There was no opposition to this Bill in the other House and I hope that your Lordships also will be willing to give it a Second Reading. The additional cost of the pensions and the changes made by the Bill is represented by a capital sum of £650,000 spread over a period of years of which about £550,000 will fall on the Exchequer. In addition the annual charges that will fall on the Exchequer will ultimately amount to a sum of about £58,000. I hope your Lordships will agree that this is not an undue price to pay for the remedying of anomalies in the present pensions system for teachers and I therefore commend the Bill to the House.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Selborne.)
LORD SOUTHWOOD: My Lords, may I say that this Bill also has the unqualified support of my noble friends on these Benches?
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

FOREIGN POLICY AND RECONSTRUCTION.
LORD DERWENT LORD DERWENT had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government whether, in view of the high prestige with which this country will emerge from the war, they will have special regard, in framing their foreign policy during the period of reconstruction, to the general expectation abroad that this country will play a leading part in that reconstruction. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I expect many of your Lordships will not be surprised to hear that, in view of the momentous announcement giving the results of the Crimean Conference, I have decided not to proceed with this question to-day. I have done so not because I think that the announcement invalidates what I had intended to say but because I think this moment is unwise and unsuitable for pursuing the matter. Therefore I propose either to insert what I have to say in any debate that may take place in the near future on foreign affairs or to put down my question again before long.

MAINTENANCE OF PEACE
2.21 p.m.
VISCOUNT TRENCHARD VISCOUNT TRENCHARD rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether any progress has been made in considering the best means of strengthening the armed forces in Europe with a view to preventing war before it breaks out, and in particular whether they have considered the part air can play; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, when I read the communiqué dealing with the great Crimean Conference and decisions taken I considered whether I ought to postpone my Motion, but after taking what advice I could I decided that I would venture to continue with it. I want to ask the Government whether any progress has been made in considering the best means of strengthening the power of the armed forces in Europe to keep the peace with especial regard to the part that the Air Forces can play. It was said quite recently that the fear of military aggression after this war must be eliminated at any rate in Europe or else all the great political developments that we have been discussing in many debates in your Lordships' House and in another place will fall to the ground. The preservation of peace I feel is the key to many of the other problems. In the course of a recent debate on a Motion brought forward in your Lordships' House by the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood, I made a suggestion—a very simple proposal, though to my mind a very important one—but in the reply by the Government spokesman no reference was made to it. I am not complaining of that or making any criticism, because I failed to inform the noble Viscount the Leader of the House that I was going to put forward a definite proposal. As I am of the opinion that it is an important suggestion, I venture, in order to clarify my suggestion, once again to bring it before your Lordships' House. It is really the same point which the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood, made in his remarks when he said:
"Are we, I wonder, moving quickly enough in making air defence agreements, both in the East and the West, that will make it hopeless for any German to contemplate another military aggression? I have a feeling that we may be losing the present atmosphere of common effort and of comradeship that has grown up between the various Allied fort's."
988
I will be as brief as possible. The underlying basis of my suggestion, which is a very modest and simple one, is the friendship that has grown up in this war between our Royal Air Force and the Air Forces of our Allies. There is no doubt that this friendship is sincere. These young men are only boys to-day but they will be the leaders of their respective nations in the future. They have fought together, flown together; they have had those long flights over Germany, over the Atlantic and over the North Sea together—Norwegians, Dutch, French, Belgians, Poles and Czechs. It is more than ordinary friendship. Without allowing sentiment to take too great a place in my remarks I feel that your
Lordships must realize that this friendship is a friendship which will endure and which should be encouraged. It was the same in the last war. The friendship between ourselves and our American Allies—as it is to-day—was closer in the Air Services than between any other service, any other profession or any other walk of life.
Only last night an American broadcasting over our system after the nine o'clock news used this expression:
"If the British Tommy and the G.I. Joe are second cousins once removed, the British and American pilots are half-brothers. In fact after a time it is very easy to forget there is any distinction at all."
There is something in the air which brings airmen together when they fly together. In the vast open space of the skies there are no national boundaries. Nationality loses a certain amount of its influence. They become friends in the air in all its intricacies, dangers and delights. Therefore this natural association is worth cultivating, encouraging, maintaining and developing. Do not let us throw it away as we did after the last war. My suggestion is that we should make arrangements now—not treaties, but arrangements with our friends and Allies. I feel we should make sectional arrangements which come within and under, if necessary, the auspices or control of the proposals or agreements that come into being as outlined at Dumbarton Oaks. I ventured to say in the last debate on the same subject:
"Neutrality is dead, and there will be no such thing as neutrality in the future in European wars."
These local arrangements should be made broadly on the following lines: In

989
order to ensure that the Air Force is available, then the organization must be such that the force can be used at once to prevent war. I would like to repeat that I want an organization to prevent war instead of waiting until war breaks out and then organizing. I want to see friendly arrangements made by this country with the Western Powers of Europe, such as Norway, Holland, Belgium and France, to have their Air Forces organized on similar lines as ours. The squadrons should be organized on the same line in these countries and equipped with the same sort of machines—not necessarily the same machines, but the same types such as fighters, bombers, fighter-bombers, equipped with the same type of weapons such as bombs, rockets, torpedoes, etc. The aerodromes should also be organized on similar lines in these countries with the same landing orders, the same airfield rules and the same types of wireless communication and codes. It is done now. Why cannot it be continued? Surely this is the time to consider arranging that the present similarity should be continued in peacetime so as to be ready for war. In this war we have had squadrons composed of men from France, Belgium, Holland, Czechoslovakia and Poland, sometimes commanded by an Englishman sometimes by an officer from the Dominions, and sometimes a
British squadron has been commanded by a foreign officer. I do not ask that we should go as far as that in peace-time—I do not think it would be practicable—but we should have our Air Forces similarly organized. I am not asking anything that would be controversial such as interference with national sovereignty. My proposals do not interfere with that in any way.
Now I come to my most important point. I would like to see it arranged between Britain and the countries of the Western Powers that I have mentioned and will repeat—France, Belgium, Holland and Norway—that squadrons from these different countries can fly to certain selected aerodromes—I repeat selected—in any of these countries for practice for training purposes or even for friendly visits or functions of sport and stop there for a day or two or three days. In these days of flying these countries do not want to be circumscribed to their own boundaries. It is no practice to fly up and
990
down a little country when a couple of thousand miles is no distance in flying. The squadrons of these countries ought to be able to do this without having to obtain permission each time from Governments, Ambassadors or Foreign Offices. It should be a matter of course, by friendly and amicable arrangement between the commanding officers of the Air Services in the different countries, just as our commanding officers now in our own country move squadrons from one Command to another. I suggest that we should choose, say, twenty aerodromes in this country and perhaps the smaller nations should have five each or more. At these aerodromes should be at least one—if not more—squadron always stationed, and accommodation for one or two visiting squadrons. There should be hangars, huts and, generally speaking, everything that is needed to give the visitors a proper welcome. As to the smaller nations Norway might perhaps have five of these aerodromes, Belgium five, Holland five, and France a certain number. I feel that just as civilians can go to other countries with only their passports, so our squadrons and the squadrons from friendly Powers should be able to visit each other's countries with simply their uniforms and their commanding officers' signatures as passports. Let the officers and men of these visiting squadrons go freely about amongst our men. Surely visits conducted on these lines would make for the formation and maintenance of most valuable friendships.
In making these suggestions, I have not left out of account our great American Ally. Their organization and ours are practically the same to-day, and I feel that similar friendly arrangements should be made on the same friendly lines as I have suggested with regard to other nations, between the Air Services of our two countries. Surely this sort of arrangement could be made between our Royal Air Force stations in the Far East—in Singapore, Malaya, Burma and Hong Kong—with our American Allies in the Pacific and with the great Dominion of Australia. They want to be able to fly at will to pay us visits, and we want to be able at any time to drop in and see them. In spite of the vastness of their own country, the Americans will want to fly the Atlantic and so shall we, and it should be almost taken for granted that we can land on certain selected aerodromes in

991
each other's countries. I am not wanting to make a combination of West against East—far from it. Russia can, and most probably will, make arrangements locally with the Eastern Powers. Could we not connect up with the Russians in the same way in the Middle East and even in parts of Asia. In the same way, surely, we could have a friendly arrangement between our Air Force in the Far East and the Dutch in the Netherlands. Is this all beyond the bounds of possibility? I do not think so, and I feel that it would add to our friendship.
I consider that these proposals of mine have two advantages. One is that if really friendly mutual arrangements are made, whereby visits between squadrons and other units of one nation to another are promoted, it will maintain and increase the friendship between our nations which is particularly what we want. The social meetings between the air crews of the different nations would lead to a permanent link of understanding amongst themselves, and also amongst their relatives and their friends. Our air crews would meet their friends and relatives and their air crews would meet ours. Secondly, the organization of the Air Forces of the Western Powers on similar lines to ours would ensure that a force would be ready at any time, should a crisis arise, to come immediately into action to prevent war.
I am one of those who would rather plant a small seed and watch it grow into a great tree than carry out the great task that is performed frequently by other people—and often fails—of planting a grown tree with all its branches and support it with props. It was the planting of small seeds such as those to which I refer that made England and the British Empire in the past, and I believe that we should make that our policy in the future. I believe that at the same time these great and important conferences are going on the more humble work of planting these tiny seeds may also be performed I hope that it will be performed and that mighty trees will grow from those seeds. Do not let us lose the chance of keeping that friendship which I have mentioned—the friendship that is inherent in airmen who have fought together in the air, in the intimacy of the skies in cloud, mist, rain, snow,
992
fog and sunshine. That friendship will last when all others die. Is it too much to suggest that at the next great conference between the three Great Powers our Prime Minister, President Roosevelt and Marshal Stalin should issue a joint statement to the effect that the informal and friendly arrangements already in existence between the different Air Forces of the United States, Russia and the friendly Western Powers and ours, shall continue after the war in order to ensure that an adequate force is always ready to prevent war in the future? I know that a simple statement on those lines would be welcomed by all in the Air Services, and would do much towards keeping the peace, which, as I have said, is the key to all future problems. My Lords, cannot the Government give us some measure of assurance that these proposals are not lost sight of? I beg to move.
Moved, That there be laid before the House Papers relating to the best means of strengthening the armed forces in Europe with a view to preventing war before it breaks out, and in particular to the part which air control can play.—(Viscount Trenchard.)
2.36 p.m.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I rise to say a few words in support of the Motion which has been put forward by the noble and gallant Viscount. I do so as a firm believer in the proposals emanating from the Dumbarton Oaks conversations, though those proposals I hope may be somewhat amended in certain respects. They are, I consider, capable of improvement. As your Lordships are doubtless aware, Chapter VIII of the Dumbarton Oaks Charter sets out various methods to be employed to deal with a potential or actual breach of international peace. Under these arrangements certain quotas of national forces are to be made available in order that the military sanctions may be applied if necessary. In particular, so as to enable urgent military measures to be taken, there are to be held immediately available national Air Force contingents for combined international enforcement action. It seems clear that if these international air contingents are to function effectively, the Governments concerned must arrange in normal times for such co-operation as will

993
enable the contingents to act speedily and adequately should an international crisis arise.
The noble and gallant Viscount, who speaks with such very high authority on matters of this kind, has put forward certain suggestions to provide for this co-operation. I earnestly hope that these suggestions will be not only carefully but favourably considered by His Majesty's Government and by the Staff Committee
which is to advise the members of the organization created by the Dumbarton Oaks meeting about such matters. It may be that the noble Viscount suggested perhaps a somewhat over-simplified procedure for the purpose which he has in mind, but, if adequate co-operation is to be established, clearly something more than formal visits by the national Air Force contingents is desirable and necessary. I assume that proper co-operation between international air contingents requires knowledge of certain national aerodromes, landing arrangements, ground forces and so on, and, as the noble and gallant Viscount has pointed cut, joint training and practice should be assured. I cannot but think that His Majesty's Government will welcome the proposals put forward by the noble and gallant Viscount since they have already given general approval to the principles which underlie them. That being so I should not feel justified in taking up your Lordships' time in expatiating on the advantages of these suggestions, because as I say, they have already been indicated very clearly in the speech with which the noble Viscount introduced his Motion, and I cannot but believe that they will be accepted by His Majesty's Government.
2.40 p.m.
VISCOUNT TEMPLEWOOD: My Lords, any observations made by the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, on air matters are worthy of attention in this or any other assembly. When the history of this war is written it will be found that his pioneer work for the Air Force and the imagination that he instilled into it have been one of the great assets upon which we have most depended during these five difficult years. His suggestions are made out of long experience. He and I were together in the years immediately following the last war, and the lessons of that period have some applicability to the present state of affairs. We then had
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scarcely any Air Force left. I hope that that situation will never arise again. Very soon, moreover, we got out of touch with the Air Forces of our former Allies. I remember particularly the case of the French Air Force, which at that time was the predominant Air Force in Europe. Whether as a result of divergent policy or different organization or the fact that we were so weak in the air, we did lose contact with the French Air Force, and we never fully regained that contact in subsequent years.
The noble Viscount has made proposals to prevent a repetition of that situation. He has proposed, first of all, that the Allies in this war should attempt to agree upon a common basis of training, types of machine, types of equipment and types of aerodrome management. That need not imply uniformity, any more than the agreement which he and I made, now nearly twenty years ago, with the Dominion Governments meant uniformity. At one of the Imperial Conferences immediately following the last war, we came to a general agreement very much on the lines that the noble Viscount has just advocated for Western Europe. The result was that when this war started we found that we had a substantial community of sentiment in the field of training, in the field of operations, and in the general comradeship between the Dominion Air Forces and our own. That, I imagine, is what the noble Viscount wishes to see repeated now amongst the Allies generally, and particularly among the Allies in Western Europe.
His second proposal is that every possible obstacle that now stands in the way of frequent contacts between the Allied Air Forces should be removed. I think that that is an excellent idea. On no account must we lose this wonderful common esprit de corps which has grown up in the last five or six years. I would venture to make a concrete proposal in this connexion. I would ask the noble and learned Lord Chancellor to consider whether a definite instruction should not be given to the Committee of Imperial Defence and to the Chiefs of Staff to organize ways and means for obtaining this contact. The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, has made certain suggestions with reference to the visit of one squadron to another. That is an excellent idea, but

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it seems to me that something more precise may be needed, and I suggest that this is essentially a question for the Chiefs of Staff, but for the Chiefs of Staff with a direction from the Cabinet that they should do their utmost to carry these suggestions into effect.
Let us remember that we are to-day the great European Air Power. It is for us in Europe to take a lead in these matters. During these last five years it has been the strategy and the tactics of the Royal Air Force which have given the lead to the Air Forces of the Allies. I wish to see the great influence and the good will which we have created now made full use of, and one of the uses which we should make of them is to encourage, on the lines suggested by the noble Viscount, this contact and this common organization which are so necessary not only for good feeling in time of peace, but for swift action in time of danger.
2.47 p.m.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, I can naturally not claim to speak with the Service and technical knowledge of the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, or with the official experience of the other two noble Lords who have spoken, but, though it may be merely as a civilian and a layman, I do wish heartily to support what the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, has said. I do so on two grounds. First of all, I think that something of this kind is an absolutely necessary complement to what the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood, put forward on a recent occasion—a very partial complement, but a very real and necessary one all the same. To enlarge upon that, however, would not be fitting on the present occasion. The other thing that I feel is that this is a real, immediate and, as far as it goes, effective measure for security.
What do we mean by security? Do we mean absolute security for the whole Empire? If we mean that, I cannot but remember what Mr. Joseph Chamberlain said just after the conclusion, if I remember aright, of the South African War. He said that we never had been and never should be completely secure, having regard partly to our own Constitution and partly to the far-flung boundaries of the Empire. That was thought to be a hard saying and it shocked many people at the time, but I believe that it is profoundly
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true. The unpredictable is continually happening. Who could have prophesied what took place at Singapore? The situation there, apart from the more technical matter of air cover for the Fleet, was caused by two events, neither of which could have been expected and the conjunction of which would have seemed impossible. I am referring, of course, to what happened at Pearl Harbour and—what is perhaps even more important—to the bloodless surrender of Indo-China. The latter, I think, was the more important and tragic event of the two, and one which, I cannot help thinking, should induce a little modesty in the comments we get sometimes from abroad. But in the past—and in the long past—we have always made the home front safe, though sometimes, in my reading of naval history, the margin, in 1797 for instance, was none too great. But that has always been a steady policy, whatever variations there may have been in the strength of the Army and in foreign policy. Now the need is the same, only it is needed in two spheres instead of one, and I have no doubt we can rise to the occasion. It is not an impossibility, it is no more an impossibility than it was found to be in the past, for the Navy to make our shores and the approaches to them safe, only we have to build up the Air Force and have it ready for quick and immediate action, and that I believe would be largely achieved by the proposal that the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, has made.
Another advantage is that it can easily fit into much larger proposals without, so far as I can see, any friction and without departing from the basic idea of the scheme. Of course, we must have complete co-ordination, and co-ordination in the past we have not had. I do not know what truth they had, but I have heard most unpleasant stories of what happened in 1940, when squadrons sent out for the common cause were met at Allied aerodromes with the answer that they had no orders to co-operate or to do anything for us. That of course is completely impossible. Air co-operation is the more necessary and must be the more precise because we have seen what difficulties there are in real land co-operation. In both the two wars we had very narrow escapes; not only in this one, because anybody who reads General Spears's books will see how very narrow was the escape in 1914. It arose in the last war, some say with a

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certain cynicism, because there was not unity of command, and in this war because there was. However that may be, it all means that the air co-operation must be firm, effective and precise. Of course this plan will not do everything; it will not do everything diplomatically, it will not provide for everything from a strategic point of view; but it has the two great merits that it will fit into larger schemes, and it will give us time to protect the vitals of the Empire, if it should be necessary again, while we develop our resources.
2.52 p.m.
THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: My Lords, the principle underlying my noble friend's question must be supported by everybody who wishes to see not only the national forces occupying enemy territories efficient but all the various parts in very friendly relations with one another. I think that the news we received this morning makes it all the more necessary, and if the Royal Air Force can add international friendliness to their marvellous achievements during this war they will put us under an even greater debt of gratitude than we owe them already. I am rather sorry that the noble Viscount, Lord Templewood, as a past First Lord of the Admiralty, when he quoted the close relationship between the Dominion and the British forces, did not also mention that for many years the Royal Navy and the Dominion Navies have been one, and that any officer or man can step aboard any ship at any time. I think it was during his occupancy of the Admiralty that we had an Australian Admiral commanding British battleships. I hope that will occur again and again. I think the suggestions of the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, even more important since we heard the news this morning, and I had hoped we should be told this afternoon not only that the occupying forces would be international but that there would be an international authority in Berlin. That would mean that everything undertaken by those forces would be carried out internationally and that there would be no room for the jealousies which existed in the last war between the zones occupied by the various nations.
At the present moment we are all in a glow, as some of us are after a good dinner, and I have no doubt the same feeling pre-
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vails in the Crimea. We see peace ahead of us, peace with all the world, and we are very amicably inclined. But in the morning you sometimes have a reaction, and you have to remember that Lloyd George, Wilson and Clemenceau, sitting together, were just as earnest in believing that they were going to sow the seed of international peace as Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt are to-day. Yet a very short time after the last war the United States had withdrawn her Army of Occupation, and three years afterwards we saw the French and the Belgians going off one way while we stood back and did not go with them. If we had one international force and an international authority in Berlin it seems to me we should avoid the possibility of that sort of friction. The bonds will get weaker as we feel safer and safer, and therefore I question the practicability of visits being paid by air to various countries and aerodromes and the uniform of an officer being a sufficient passport. I presume there will be landing places for the various occupying armies to which they can all go. I suggest that if it were properly handled the organization and everything of that sort which the noble Viscount mentioned would come about naturally because it is the line of least resistance.
Among all the Air Forces which he mentioned and which have been trained by the Royal Air Force, there is a wonderful friendship. But visits are not everything. We in the Navy have sometimes paid friendly visits to foreign ports. There was a very friendly visit to Kiel in the summer of 1914, and some noble Lords who are interested in small boat sailing may remember a visit paid to Kiel in August, 1939, when a star boat (some noble Lords will know what I mean by that) carried off in an international race a cup presented by the German Admiralty and brought it home—the first naval victory of the war! I am sorry to say that the officer who did that lost his life in a submarine. I may be accused of being a pro-German, but before the last war we made many visits to German ports and met the Germans there, and we always got on extremely well with them. So I do not think that these visits have quite the effect that they might be supposed to have. They are very pleasant to those who take part in them, because we have the sea in common as a subject of interest. The Royal Air Force have the air to talk

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about and they get on very well. But it is only the fringe; it does not go very deep.
I question whether this is a matter to raise—the visiting of these aerodromes in various countries. It was easy enough to arrange visits to ships; it was easy enough for local authorities in the ports visited to ensure that the officers of the ships did not see too much. But with the power of observation in the air and the means of recording what is seen, I should think that very soon after the war we shall find foreign nations saying: "No, we do not want these visits; they will know too much about the country." Having said all that, I do wish to support the principle of the Motion. The greater the friendship we can establish, the better. I have not a very sanguine outlook on the future, however. I believe that we shall very soon find that we are getting back somewhat to the position we were in during 1923, 1924 and 1925.
3.2 p.m.
LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: My Lords, the noble and gallant Viscount who addressed us this afternoon chose a very narrow angle on a Motion which could give rise to a very extended and wide debate. I have served under him and known him for many years. He is always wise, and it is a great pleasure to see that your Lordships' House have agreed and do agree generally with the proposal that he puts forward that squadrons in the various Air Forces should visit one another. The only blot on the debate has come from the noble Admiral who says that these visits do not do any good.
THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: No, a limited amount of good.
LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: Well, a limited amount of good, and I can quite see that a visit to Germany to talk about how you fought against each other would not be so binding as a visit to people with whom you fought together. Consequently these visits might have a better effect than that which resulted from the visit to Kiel. I am a realist in this matter, and we have to realize that after the war there are going to be three Air Forces in the world, and three only—the Russian, the American and our own.
LORD STRABOLGI: What about the French?
LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: I am going to speak about that, if I may be allowed to go on in my own way. Those are the three great Air Forces in the world—the American, the British and the Russian. Now I sincerely hope that we shall be able to visit not only America but also Russia, and that she may be able to come and see us, as Lord Trenchard says. But there is another curious thing which is happening before our eyes but which we have not noticed, and that is the building up to-day of a European International Air Force—our own Royal Air Force. In it you will find all the small nations of Europe, actually serving, with their names on their shoulders. It is curious that they had first thought they wanted separate squadrons within that force, but they did not want it finally; they just wanted to be individuals in that Air Force. If, in the stress of war, we can run an Air Force composed not only of our own people but of citizens of these other countries of Europe, it would be, to my mind, a most desirable thing that, instead of having small Air Forces in small countries, we should perpetuate that amalgamation and allow foreigners of friendly Powers in Europe to serve with ourselves, so that we may be able to build up together at least the first part of a real International Air Force.
Viscount Trenchard spoke to us on this particular point which is, as I say, a very narrow one, but the Motion really has to do with future peace. For that reason I would like to put one or two questions to the Government which I understand are to be answered by the Lord Chancellor, as to this new development in the air, the man-less aeroplane. We know, of course, that VI has to be answered by the Royal Air Force and the Artillery, but I am not clear at all as to whose duty it is to make VI's if VI's are wanted. The Royal Aircraft Establishment had all the technique for making VI, except the pulsating, jet motor. All the technical ability was there but it was not thought to be and indeed it is not for us a military weapon of much use, whereas from the German point of view, of course, to be able to hit a big, straggling city like London certainly had military advantages. But here is a projectile which has wings. Whose business is it to study it and to decide whether to develop it or not to develop it? Is it that of the Air Force, of the Artillery,

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or of the Navy? The Ministry of Supply, of course, is going to disappear one day. It can wry easily be said that it is their job at the present time. The general directing of policy in regard to that particular type of weapon, however, seems to me to be extremely obscure.
Then we come to the even more difficult position of the V2. To ward it off seems to me to be the business only of the electricians, but who has the task of developing this thing? Rockets have shown an immense advance during the war. The launching of the 14-ton projectile by a rocket seemed almost impossible at the beginning of the war, but these things are being done to-day. Are we going on with this technique? Whose job is it to study it? Here is a projectile which has scarcely anything to do with the Air Force—it has not even got wings. Is it the Garrison Artillery's job? Is it therefore within the province of the Army, or is it the new long-range gun for the Navy? These are all problems wrapped up in the future and about which I do not think there is any clear thinking, but they are problems in the prevention of war. A Government could secure a valley in their own country and set up a range of rocket-launching devices which would hit any city. What are we going to do to see that that sort of blatant attempt on neighbouring countries is not made? It seems to me a most important point to deal with from the point of view of future peace.
I know, indeed, that these are dreadful thoughts. We cannot, as is so often done by the professional, think of the next war in terms of the last one. That is the mistake which is always made. Here we have technical developments frankly of a most unwholesome type which are a cynical reflection on the misguided ingenuity of man. But these inventions have occurred. They loom large into the future and seem to me to project very great danger. I should like to know from the Lord Chancellor what machinery, what thought and what organization are being given to the elimination of such threats now and in the future.
3.9 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, apart from the most interesting speech just delivered by my noble friend Lord Brabazon, the debate to-day has kept itself more precisely than is sometimes the case within
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the bounds of the initial Motion and the speech of the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Trenchard. I would willingly do my best to reply to the question just put to me by my noble friend Lord Brabazon, but I have an inherent objection to attempting to answer questions without being first sufficiently informed of the answer. I could hardly expect that at the last moment he would produce this new variety of the latest bomb and insert it under the Woolsack, intending me to produce a completely informed, absolutely technical and wholly authoritative reply out of my own head. That really I cannot do. While I think it very useful, if I may say so, that he should mention this matter and call attention to its great importance, I am sure that what he really desired to do was to put that on record in a public way and call attention to it in order that on a suitable occasion the matter might be discussed or at any rate carefully considered. I therefore excuse myself from now dealing with that specially inserted topic.
As regards the actual subject of debate I am very glad indeed that Viscount Trenchard did not follow his first impulse and withdraw his Motion in view of the announcement from the Crimea this morning. On the contrary, I should have thought, and I rather think your Lordships generally will think, that what the noble and gallant Viscount has brought before us is the more timely because of the Crimean announcement, and I am very glad to be the one who has to reply to him as well as I can because on a previous occasion, last December, when he made a speech on much the same lines on I think the second day of the debate on Lord Templewood's Motion, I had the duty of replying and he is quite correct in saying I was not at that time able to give him an answer to the matters which he brought forward. Since then, thanks to the Notice he has given, I have done my very best to inform myself, and I hope to give him and the House a reply which will be felt to be really satisfactory.
The noble Viscount's question touches very directly one aspect, the air aspect, of the arrangements to assist in the development of post-war organization for securing peace. That is, of course, one of the features of the striking and comprehensive declaration issued this morning in the Press and coming from the Crimea Conference. Let me quote one paragraph

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of that communication for it will show how closely the question now raised is connected with those matters that have been under intense discussion and analysis between the three great leaders of the three great Allies. I extract this passage from the declaration:
"We are resolved upon the earliest possible establishment with our Allies of a general international organization to maintain peace and security. We believe that this is essential both to prevent aggression and to remove the political, economic, and social causes of war through the close and continuing collaboration of all peace-loving people. The foundations were laid at Dumbarton Oaks."
My noble friend in the course of his speech said he liked to plant a seed in the hope that it would develop into a tree. Well, somebody planted an acorn and it developed into a Dumbarton Oak. But there is, of course, a great deal to be done with the propositions of a general character that were advanced at Dumbarton Oaks before the achievement of what I have just read from the declaration of the Crimea Conference can be practically secured. My noble and gallant friend asks whether we could not make arrangements now (for now is the accepted time) with our neighbours and Allies for the better development of their post-war Air Forces—arrangements which would fall within the general scheme of Dumbarton Oaks and would help to secure such an organization by mutual agreement as would promote and make ready a combined Air Force to be used at once to prevent war if occasion arises. He has illustrated this idea, and has been reinforced with the authority of my noble friend Viscount Templewood, by asking whether friendly arrangements could not be made, for example, with Norway, Holland, Belgium and France, to have their post-war Air Forces organized on similar lines to our own. Well, having taken counsel on the subject I am able to assure the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, at once that His Majesty's Government are entirely at one with him in approving the spirit of that proposal, that they realize its importance and that his technical suggestions are most welcome and will be further studied. To a large extent, as I will show in a moment, this general conception is being pursued.
Let me put in here the acknowledgment which I must make to the suggestion which Lord Templewood put forward. He
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asks whether the Chiefs of Staff Committee, or some other suitable body, might not receive directions from the Cabinet to take these suggestions into consideration and to work out how they might be carried into effect. I naturally have no express authority to make a reply to what was said a short while age, but I am perfectly confident that the proposals made here and pressed upon us this afternoon are proposals which will be regarded by the War Cabinet as well worthy of their own attention, and I feel confident in my own mind that the suggestion that they should be thus pursued is one that is likely to be taken up.
Something has been said—and I suppose most of your Lordships are already acquainted with the facts—of the assistance which we have given ever since 1940, and are continuing to give, to the Air Forces of our neighbouring European Allies. That assistance will certainly count as an important contribution towards the re-establishment of their national Air Forces in the post-war period. See how far it extends. This assistance which we are giving includes the supplies of British equipment, of all possible help in training, and the supply of technical and other information necessary for successful co-operative work. His Majesty's Government hope that the very close links between the Royal Air Force and these Allied Air Forces will be maintained and developed during the post-war period and that we shall be privileged to continue in the future to help our Allies in these ways. By this means the really remarkable association which has developed between the Royal Air Forces and the Allied Forces will, we hope, be perpetuated. It may take many forms, and various forms, I am informed, are under close consideration at this time. In view more particularly of what was said by my noble friend Viscount Templewood, I would say this. I can give a definite assurance that this matter is already in train, both in our own forecasts for training and plans for manufacture in the future, and that it is a subject of talks with some of our Allies already.
His Majesty's Government consider that this co-operation is a most important contribution to the World Organization sketched out at Dumbarton Oaks. That was a point made in the debate more particularly by my noble friend the Earl of

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Perth. It is in course of further development as a result of more recent conferences. It is worth while perhaps putting on record in a few sentences what has actually happened. Allied air units are at present serving with the Royal Air Force fully integrated with the Royal Air Force. They are organized, they are trained, and they are operated on an almost identical basis. Poles—and they make most gallant airmen—Belgians, Dutch, Norwegians, French, Czechs, Greeks and Yugoslavs all take advantage of this friendly contact in various ways. I think nothing corresponding to this has ever happened in the history of warfare. These people are friends. They are flying British machines or, sometimes, American machines. Their national squadrons and training units use our British aerodromes in the closest and friendliest co-operation with the Royal Air Force. In some cases—for example, in the case of the Poles who have supplied a surprising number of pilots—they have their own aerodromes in this country with their own station commanders acting in co-operation, it may be, with a British station commander.
Therefore my noble friend Viscount Trenchard was no whit exaggerating when he emphasized the nature of the opportunity which is now before us. The question is how far that close integration in its present form—of course they will get back to their own aerodromes in their own countries—can be made a common object of our policy and contribute to the carrying out of projects for securing peace after the war. His Majesty's Government are in the fullest agreement with my noble friend Viscount Trenchard as to the desirability of continuing the close co-operation with all our Allies which has grown up during the war as a means of preserving peace and encouraging mutual understanding. It is right to say that the principles underlying that conception are generally accepted by the Air Staff, particularly this technical but essential matter of securing common practice and mutual understanding in such matters as airfield control and communications.
I wish in the description I am trying to give to set the matter within its proper limits. It is not, of course, essential, and indeed may not be practicable, to aim at identical organization and identical types of aircraft. As my noble friend Viscount
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Trenchard pointed out, precise similarity does not exist to-day in many cases. We all know that the organization and types of aircraft of the United States Air Force and the Royal Air Force are not identical. Yet it has proved possible for these two Air Forces to work in the closest co-operation, and for their formations to be detached from the parent Air force and to work in association with others under the control of commanders of either nationality, as was so very interestingly explained to us in the course of the debate. The matter really stands thus, and I hope this assertion and this assurance will give satisfaction in the quarters which have raised this most important matter for inquiry.
The details for future inter-Allied co-operation between Allied forces under the aegis of a World Organization are the subjects of immediate study. They spring, as I have said, out of the Dumbarton Oaks Conference. There, I would remind your Lordships, certain proposals were discussed for the provision of national quotas—my noble friend the Earl of Perth referred to them—to constitute some form of international instrument at the disposal of the Security Council. Perhaps some of your Lordships will like the reference to the document. I will not read it all. Chapter VIII (B) of the Dumbarton Oaks plan, particularly the paragraphs (5) to (9), and again Chapter VIII (C) contain the relevant passages. For example, in Chapter VIII (B) (5), you will find these words:
"In order that all members of the Organization should contribute to the maintenance of international peace and security, they should undertake to make available to the Security Council, on its call and in accordance with a special agreement or agreements concluded among themselves, armed forces, facilities and assistance necessary for the purpose of maintaining international peace and security."
Further details follow and in paragraph (6) it is stated that
"there should be held immediately available by the members of the Orgnization national Air Force contingents for combined international enforcement action"
See, my Lords, what a great step will have been taken towards securing the working of such a plan, which we have been able to follow with our neighbours and Allies, the plan of close association after the war which will make our respective Air Forces, already active comrades,

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acquainted with one another's ways following common training and technical control. Instead of having, as it were, to call out in an emergency forces which have not had previous experience together, you would be calling upon a body, a combination it may be of several of the Allies, able at once to take the air in unison. Your Lordships will notice that these proposals contemplate that the member States of the Organization shall make the necessary agreements between themselves to make available to the Security Council of the World Organization the necessary armed force with facilities for maintaining international peace. The Military Staff Committee, as it is called by the Dumbarton Oaks Conference, the "General Staff" of the World Organization, will advise the Security Council from the technical point of view upon the arrangements necessary, and will be responsible for the strategic direction of national armed forces placed at the disposal of the Security Council.
Now the point which I have endeavoured to bring out, and which I wish to stress, is one which will, I believe, appeal to any one who has been good enough to listen to me. The close association that has grown up in battle between our own and the Allied Air Forces will form a most valuable foundation for arrangements of this kind in the future. Again, the association between those Allied Air Forces may prove very valuable when the time comes to consider the formation of regional arrangements which are contemplated and, to some extent, provided for in Chapter VIII (C) of the Dumbarton Oaks proposals.
My noble and gallant friend has referred specifically to the necessity for a unified signals and flying control procedure amongst these Air Forces. All our Allies are, of necessity, well acquainted with our flying control system owing to the familiarity which they have gained during their period of operations under our control. We have also trained numbers of Allied officers in airfield control and flying control—generally, I believe, at the Central School of Flying Control—and I might add that negotiations are now in progress for a number of French Air officers to come from France to be trained in flying control in this country. This applies to some other Allied airmen also.
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We have already had a visit from a French Signals Mission which has had every facility for inspecting our Signals organization. In an endeavour to ensure that the Air Forces of our neighbouring Allies have the same broad basis of organization as the Royal Air Force, we have allotted in this country Royal Air Force stations to various Allies to enable them to train, under their own commanders, the necessary personnel to rebuild their Air Forces. These stations, of course, are run on Royal Air Force lines, although I think I am right when I say that Royal Air Force assistance is only given so far as it is asked for and required.
Your Lordships will see, therefore, that we have actually at work in this country, a system which, as it seems to me, Lord Trenchard is very well entitled to regard as the seed of some permanent and equally close arrangement between us when the war is over. All the matters of which I have spoken which are outside my own personal knowledge, are matters on which information has been supplied to me by the proper authorities and that information may therefore I think be taken as authoritative and, I hope, exact. I trust the answer which I have given will go far to satisfy my noble and gallant friend and others that his own thoughts on this subject follow the same lines as those which are being adopted by His Majesty's Government. I will not discuss particularly—I am not qualified to do so—the details concerning the protocol for visiting aerodromes in a friendly country, especially as the noble and gallant Admiral at once begins to think of the visits paid on occasion—ceremonial visits perhaps—by the Mediterranean Fleet in its summer tour. But, even though arrangements do not turn out to be quite so simple as might appear from Lord Trenchard's speech, our spirit in the matter is perfectly willing. It is essentially a matter of negotiation and agreement, and, as I say, our spirit is perfectly willing. Our resolve to pursue what is essential in this project, and to achieve it in every possible way, is firm.
At this stage in the debate the question begins to arise as to what would be the better way to deal with the Motion. I must say that, for my part, I do not see why the noble Viscount should be asked to withdraw his Motion. I think

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it would be perfectly proper for the House to adopt it, and for the Government to support that course. We shall not be understood by so doing to undertake to follow every detail of every plan which may have been outlined in my noble and gallant friend's speech, but, so far as the Motion is concerned, I consider, that it expresses in the most admirable terms what I believe we are quite united about. The Motion is moving for Papers, and asking His Majesty's Government "whether any progress has been made in considering the best means of strengthening the armed forces in Europe with a view to preventing war before it breaks out, and in particular whether they have considered the part air can play." I hope that your Lordships will think that I have given a straight answer
to a straight question, and that the answer will be favourably received by the House. If the noble Viscount who moved would prefer that his Motion be treated as adopted, the Government raise no obstacle of any kind.
3.38 p.m.
VISCOUNT TRENCHARD: My Lords, it only remains for me to thank the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack for his reply. I accept what he has said most gratefully, and I feel that, from my point of view, the course he has suggested meets what I have asked for. I
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am glad to hear that attention is to be paid to these ideas, and that we are going to go ahead with them. I will only add just this one word. I hope that, when the war comes to an end, this delicate plant may not suffer, as delicate plants sometimes do, from inattention. I hope that the Government will watch over it as a mother would watch over her child, and that it will be allowed to grow up in a healthy, strong and simple way. That is all I have to say on this matter.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (FAMILY PENSION FUNDS) (AMENDMENT) ORDER, 1945.
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the India and Burma Orders Committee.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (GOVERNORS' ALLOWANCE AND PRIVILEGES) (AMENDMENT) ORDER, 1945.
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and referred to the India and Burma Orders Committee.
House adjourned at twenty minutes before four o'clock.