Sitting of 28 September 1944

Preamble
The House met at Eleven o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  NATIONAL WAR EFFORT Boiler-Scaling (Agreement)
  Sir Robert Rankinasked the Minister of Labour in respect to the agreement recently made between the Factory Department in his Ministry and representatives of employers and employees relative to the scaling or cleaning of ships' boilers, why no shipowners' representatives were consulted thereon, or asked to be signatories to the agreement.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Bevin): This agreement was the result of discussions between the Factory Department, various organisations of employers who undertake boiler scaling, cleaning oil fuel tanks and similar work in ships, and organisations of workers who are from time to time employed by such employers on this work. It relates to the safety and welfare of workers when so employed and to the non-employment of young persons. The shipowners are not the employers of these persons, but we did, however, in accordance with our usual practice, send the agreement to shipowners' organisations, with the object of securing their co-operation, which we were satisfied would be forthcoming.

  Factories (Labour Supply)
  Colonel Lyonsasked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the number of persons in factories where programmes have been modified who are not fully engaged in essential work; and whether, in view of this fact, he proposes to cease or alter the call-up of further personnel for industrial purposes.
  Mr. Bevin: The modification of programmes is bound to result on occasion in local and temporary under-employment, but in general the supply of labour remains and is likely to remain substantially below the numbers required for all essential purposes. In the circumstances, no substantial relaxation is immediately possible.
  Sir Herbert Williams: Has the Minister been around those factories where about 50 per cent. of the people are doing nothing to-day?
  Mr. Bevin: It is quite true that in certain cases, when production is being changed from one thing to another, or when there are cuts, there is slowing down, but I do not think that the extent of it ought to be exaggerated. I have to bear in mind that when you break up a labour force, it is very difficult to get it together again.
  Mr. George Griffiths: Has the Minister time to go prying around factories, like the hon. Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams), in order to find faults?

  Export Trade
  Mr. Colegateasked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to direct labour released from munition factories owing to the cancellation of Government contracts to firms engaged in manufacture for export.
  Mr. Bevin: In general, all labour released from specific war work is still required for other war work. I have made arrangements, however, in consultation with my right hon. Friends the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Production and my other colleagues concerned, for any such labour as is not required for war work to be submitted for employment on essential civilian work, including work for export.
  Mr. Silverman: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the factories on Merseyside controlled by Messrs. Rootes Securities, Ltd., large numbers of men have already been released and have been found no other employment, and that they are greatly concerned at the position?
  Mr. Bevin: If my hon. Friend will give me particulars I will look into the matter.
  Mr. Leachasked the Minister of Labour if, in view of the national urgency

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  of resuming export at the earliest possible moment and the imminent call upon exporters, particularly of raw and semi-manufactured materials, to be ready to trade with liberated countries possibly even before the end of the war, he will release from the forces key men and men trained specially for export by priority and defer the call-up to the forces of young men similarly trained from now on.
  Mr. Bevin: Although I appreciate the importance of restoring our export trade as soon as possible, the needs of the Armed Forces must, for the time being, remain the paramount consideration, and I am not prepared, therefore, to ask the Service authorities to release any considerable numbers of men for the purpose referred to in the Question at the present stage. My hon. Friend will now be aware of the provision made in the Government's plans for the release of key men required for urgent reconstruction work after the end of the war in Europe.
  Mr. Leach: Will my right hon. Friend take note of the need which is involved in this Question, as I am not asking for the release of these men now, but at the earliest moment?
  Mr. Bevin: Yes, we have that in mind, and the whole scheme is based on being able to deal with this problem. I would ask my hon. Friend to remember before I begin getting other people in the lower age groups out of the Army, Air Force or Navy, that the employers must consider first the re-absorption of the men they will get out in Class A.

  Directed Mine Workers (Resettlement)
  Sir Leonard Lyleasked the Minister of Labour, in view of the fact that the provisions of the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act do not apply to men who were directed to the mines, what steps will be taken at the conclusion of hostilities to enable such of them as wish to return to other civil employment to obtain protection similar to that given by that Act to men who were directed to the fighting services.
  Mr. Bevin: As I have previously informed the House, young men directed to coalmining will receive treatment as near as possible to that accorded to men called up for the Forces. Therefore, while the provisions of the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act do not apply to them,
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  they will have available all the facilities for resettlement which will be available to members of the Forces, including training, assistance in connection with interrupted apprenticeship and further education.

  Women Workers (Replacement)
  Mr. Reakesasked the Minister of Labour whether he will now free married women with children from compulsory part-time work in factories and other essential jobs and replace them by workers, particularly by the older men, now becoming redundant in industry and the Civil Defence services.
  Mr. Bevin: Compulsion has never been applied to women with young children of their own under 14 living with them to undertake work. Any such person in employment which she cannot leave without the permission of a National Service Officer is always given permission to leave if the reason for leaving is that she wishes to care for her children.

  N.F.S. Officer (Work Direction)
  Mr. W. H. Greenasked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the case of a company officer of the N.F.S. directed to be a dustman; and what steps he is taking to prevent this waste of a man's long and expert training in the management of men.
  Mr. Bevin: No, Sir, but if my hon. Friend will let me have particulars I will look into the case.

  War Reserve Police, Solihull.
  Sir John Mellorasked the Minister of Labour why 11 police war reserves of the Solihull division were, on 11th September, instructed' by the Small Heath employment exchange to report to the Birmingham Corporation Tramways and, later, 10 of these men directed to commence work on the tramways before notice of discharge from the constabulary had been given; and how many days were allowed for appeal.
  Mr. Bevin: By arrangements with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, policemen to be made available for other employment are not discharged until alternative work has been found for them. The normal period allowed for appeals against directions is four days, and in the cases in Question the directions were

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  issued on 15th September to take effect ten days later.
  Sir J. Mellor: Was the police authority consulted with regard to the strain upon the local police and the special constabulary consequent upon these directions?
  Mr. Bevin: That is a matter for the Home Secretary. The men are released and handed over to me as released men. It is my duty then to place them in other employment.

  Industrial Earnings (Statistics)
  Sir H. Williamsasked the Minister of Labour why the increased weekly earnings of all workers in January 1944 as compared with October 1935, as stated on page 126 of the "Ministry of Labour Gazette" of August 1944, show an increase of only 79 per cent., having regard to the fact that the increases for men were 79 per cent., for youths and boys 80 per cent., for women 96 per cent. and girls 85 per cent.; and will he publish the calculations on which the percentage of 79 for all workers is based.
  Mr. Bevin: I am assured that the calculations in the "Labour Gazette" are correct, and I will in due course send my hon. Friend an example of how they are worked out.
  Sir H. Williams: Having regard to the fact that the percentage for all is equal to the percentage of the lowest, what has happened to all the rest?
  Mr. Bevin: I think they are still there.

  INDUSTRIAL COLLABORATION (MACHINERY)
  Mr. Manderasked the Minister of Labour the present position with regard to his consultation with the Trade Union Congress and the Employers' Federation and other branches of industry with a view to arriving at proposals for the maintenance of the machinery of collaboration through joint production committees and works councils in the post-war period.
  Mr. Bevin: The consultation to which my hon. Friend refers is continuous, and is part of my general policy of encouraging collaboration between employers and workpeople on all matters affecting their
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  common interests, and at all levels of organisation. The particular methods of collaboration which my hon. Friend has in mind can best be developed on a voluntary basis, and their success will depend upon mutual confidence and understanding. The relationships which have been maintained and developed during the war have made a notable contribution to our industrial effort, and I hope that they will be continued into the peace.
  Mr. Mander: Can my right hon. Friend indicate that he hopes they will be continued, and that steps will be taken to encourage that?
  Mr. Bevin: I said that, in the first part of my answer.
  Professor Savory: On a point of Order. Will you give instructions, Sir, for a window to be opened, as we are breathing the same air as we did on Tuesday and Wednesday?

  DEMOBILISATION

    Employment Agencies
    Sir J. Mellorasked the Minister of Labour whether he will give an assurance that his Ministry's employment exchanges, including the appointments department, will not be given a monopoly in placing men and women in employment when demobilisation begins.
    Mr. Bevin: Yes, Sir. While the reallocation of man-power during the interim period following the defeat of Germany must involve in some measure a continuance of control over industry and labour, it is not part of my plans that my Department should be given a legal monopoly in placing men and women in employment.
    Sir J. Mellor: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that full scope will be given for the activities of the commercial fee-charging. agencies?
    Mr. Bevin: I cannot give any undertaking in respect of any particular form of interest until the war is over.
    Sir J. Mellor: Does the right hon. Gentleman not want the co-operation of every form of agency?
    Mr. Bevin: Yes, I shall need co-operation; but it must be remembered that the war is not over yet.

    Motor-Car Industry
    Miss Wardasked the Minister of Labour whether he is arranging for the appropriate categories of men to be released to assist in the immediate designing, preparation and manufacture of motor-cars, in order that this industry may be in a position to absorb the large numbers of demobilised men required to compete adequately in the world's markets.
    Mr. Bevin: Arrangements have been made, in consultation with my right hon. Friends the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Production, and my other colleagues concerned, for labour which is not required or available for vital war work to be used for important civilian production or services.
    Miss Ward: Are those plans in fact now operated by the Government, or are they for the distant future?
    Mr. Bevin: The plans for dealing with demobilisation began the day we started mobilising.
    Captain Strickland: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that in the motor industry it takes a long time to produce a car which is being designed, and will he allow priorities for that class of industry?
    Mr. Bevin: I would like to utter a warning, in view of this clamour for the release of men. The Government cannot take any step which will weaken the military forces with which to prosecute the war.

    Man-Power (Allocation)
    Mrs. Cazalet Keirasked the Minister of Labour whether he can now state the plans for the demobilisation of men and women in the Services, Civil Defence and industry; and whether any schemes for consulting those concerned have been undertaken.
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Labour if he can make a statement on the policy that is to be adopted in the re-allocation of people engaged in war industries after the termination of hostilities in Europe.
    Mr. Bevin: My hon. Friend will be aware that an announcement has now been made regarding the plans for release from the Armed Forces. Particulars of the substantial reduction in the Civil
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    Defence general services in the near future have also been published, and announcements of the plans for the final releases from these services and from the N.F.S. will be made in due course. As the House has already been informed, I am in consultation with representatives of employers and workers on plans for the reallocation of men and women employed in civilian work, and these will be announced as soon as possible.

    Building Trade Workers
    Mr. W. J. Brownasked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the conditions created by the shortage of housing accommodation and the importance of houses, either permanent or temporary, being available for the men and women who will be discharged and demobilised from the forces, he is taking steps to secure the immediate withdrawal from the Forces of all building trades operatives whose services as building trades workers are not required in the Forces.
    Mr. Bevin: No, Sir. It would not be practicable, at the present stage of the war, to secure the wholesale temporary release of building trade workers from the Forces for the purpose of building new houses, but they have been and are being released in considerable numbers for urgent work on house repairs.
    Mr. Brown: Does the Minister realise that unless our preparations for dealing with this matter are vastly greater than they show any signs of being at the moment, we may find ourselves confronted with a social crisis at least as serious as any military crisis?
    Mr. Bevin: Anyone who sees the casualties in the war must realise that one of my very important duties, as Minister of Labour, is to maintain the military forces until victory is achieved. I must make that the main consideration, and I must not be stampeded into action which would lead to disaster.
    Mr. Thorne: Is it possible to withdraw men from some other industries, where there is practically a surplus of labour, to help the building industry?
    Mr. Bevin: Yes, Sir, we are doing that. We are not only combing out building trade workers, but men from the munitions and other industries who are capable of doing repair work are being transferred at the present moment. But it must be

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    remembered that billeting in London is not easy at the moment, with the vast numbers of men that we are bringing in.
    Mr. Molson: While fully realising that my right hon. Friend cannot take men from the Fighting Forces, might I ask whether he is prepared to reconsider the calling up of men over 40 from the building trade in the last few months?
    Mr. Colegateasked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the changing circumstances of the war against Germany, and the serious housing position, he is now prepared to release more labour for the building trade, and for the brick, cement and other industries supplying materials essential for house building.
    Mr. Bevin: It is the intention of the Government, after the end of European hostilities, to augment as rapidly as possible the labour force of the building industry and of industries which produce materials required for building. In the meantime, with a view to the special problem of bomb damage repair work in London, considerable numbers of skilled building trade workers have been and are being temporarily released from the Forces for this work, and steps are being taken to bring back to the building industry skilled craftsmen who are now employed in other industries and to make additional labour available for the production of certain materials much in demand for repair work.
    Mr. Colegate: Does my right hon. Friend realise that one of the reasons for the slow start in building houses after the last war was that the building materials industries had not been got going in time, and will he bear that in mind?
    Mr. Bevin: During this war, as explained by the noble Lord in another place, practically all the brickworks and building material operators have been kept on a care and maintenance basis, so that, immediately the chance comes to give them labour, they can start off immediately.
    Mr. E. Walkden: Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman if the conditions which he has just explained to the House apply to the young engineering assistants in the employ of local authorities, and does he intend to review the maintenance staffs on
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    aerodromes and similar war stations, where there appears to be a surplus?
    Mr. Bevin: I must have notice of that question.
    Mr. Walkden: Will the Minister look into it?

    Apprentices (Training)
    Sir Robert Youngasked the Minister of Labour whether he is yet in a position to state what arrangements it is proposed to make to enable apprentices, whose apprenticeship has been interrupted by war service, to resume their training.
    Mr. Bevin: Yes, Sir, and I will, if I may, arrange for my proposals to be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Sir R. Young: May I ask the Minister whether his proposal will affect equally those who have not been apprenticed, because, as he knows, in the engineering and other trades there is an obligation to work a certain number of years without being bound to the employer?
    Mr. Bevin: Yes, the proposal is not limited to what are known as indentured apprentices. It has a wide definition which allows people to be dealt with who, by the practice of the trade, went up on scales of promotion.
    Colonel Greenwell: Is the Minister aware that negotiations in connection with this very important matter have long ago been entered into by the employers organisation and the trade unions with satisfactory results in many of these cases?
    Mr. Bevin: I dealt with it in conjunction with a large number of trades. I got their views and I finally discussed it with the British Employers' Confederation and the T.U.C., and I think the proposals have the merit of being unanimously accepted by both sides of the industry.
    Following are the proposals:
    APPRENTICESHIPS INTERRUPTED BY WAR SERVICE
    1. THE PROBLEM
    1. Men and women who were apprentices when they joined the forces, or when they were diverted to other work during the war, will have lost periods of training which may amount to as much as three years or more. Apprentices in certain occupations may have served at their trade while in the forces and

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    will thus have been able to continue their training; others will return to industry with no greater skill and knowledge of their respective trades than when they joined the forces; and many will have forgotten much of what they had learned; or, at any rate, will have lost the touch which is so important in some occupations. Experience has shown, however, that they will quickly pick up the threads of their training and readily re-adapt themselves to their former occupations.
    2. In the case of apprentices whose apprenticeship has been interrupted by war service, reinstatement is only one aspect of their problem. Generally speaking, on discharge from the forces the time would have passed at which they would otherwise have completed the original apprenticeship and qualified as journeymen. They will normally wish, to resume their training with a view to qualifying as journeymen as soon as possible. The industries to which they belong will need them and the country will not be able to afford to lose this potential supply of skilled workers. But if they are to complete their training. the apprentices will require during the period of renewed apprenticeship a wage commensurate with their adult status and responsibilities, i.e. a man's wage and not that of a boy; and that wage must be such as would attract the apprentice to resume training for his craft.
    3. In general the skill of the men will be at best that of apprentices. It is true that they will be older and, in many cases, improved in health, physique, self-reliance and adaptability and for this reason their industrial capacity will be greater than when they enlisted, but this will not be sufficient to compensate the employer for the increased wage which he must pay to the apprentices if they are to be attracted back to their former trades The gap between the industrial value of his services and what the apprentice will need must be bridged if apprentices are to complete their training and become skilled workmen. In this matter the State has a responsibility; it called the apprentice to the forces, or diverted him to other work, thus interrupting his training, and should share with the employer the cost of re-establishing him in his trade, but as the returned apprentice will be able to learn more quickly the period of renewed apprenticeship can be shortened. Proposals for dealing with the problem are set out below.
    II. THE SCOPE AND PRINCIPLES OF THE SCHEME
    Persons eligible
    4. The persons for whom provision will be made will be those whose apprenticeship to a skilled occupation has been interrupted by whole time service in:
    His Majesty's Armed Forces (including training under the Military Training Act 1939); The Merchant Navy or Mercantile Marine; the Civil Defence Services; the National Fire Service; the Police Auxiliary; the Civil Nursing Reserve; service in any of the capacities mentioned in the First Schedule to the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act 1944; or other work of
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    national importance, including industrial work, provided they were employed under arrangements made or approved by the Minister of Labour and National Service.
    5. The occupations concerned will be those in which before the war the practice was to require a person, as a condition of recognition as a journeyman or skilled workman, to undergo a course of training of not less than three years' duration for a definite period fixed in advance.
    6. The term "apprentice" will be interpreted in a broad sense and will include:

    (a) those serving under an indenture or other written agreement;

    (b) those serving under less formal conditions, e.g., under a verbal understanding between the parties or in accordance with the recognised custom or practice in the trade or industry concerned;

    (c) recognised learners;

    provided that in each case, before joining the forces, etc., the person was recognised as actually learning a skilled trade. Satisfactory evidence of this will be required.
    Time Allowance in respect of War Service.
    7. It is proposed that:

    (a) An apprentice who was in the last year of apprenticeship before war service shall he regarded as a journeyman on returning to his former occupation.

    (b) In the case of other apprentices the period of training to be served as the renewed apprenticeship will be determined on the following basis:

    The unexpired apprenticeship shall be reduced by one-third of the period of war service subject to a maximum reduction of one-third of the unexpired period of the original apprenticeship.
    (c) Any time served by an apprentice at his trade or at work comparable with that of his trade during his war service will be counted as part of the apprenticeship.
    Provision of State Assistance.
    8. It is proposed that allowances, as set out below, should be payable by the State during the period of renewed apprenticeship of those who Satisfy the conditions laid down:
    (a) A Wages Allowance in respect of apprentices receiving training in an em-plover's establishment after the date on which the original apprenticeship would have ended or the age of 21 (23 in certain cases in Scotland) whichever is the earlier.
    This allowance to be one-third of the recognised journeyman's rate, including war bonus, for the trade in the district concerned. It will not be payable until the apprentice reaches the age of 21 years (23 in some cases in Scotland) or until the date on which the original apprenticeship would have terminated if it had not been interrupted by war service, whichever is the earlier (see para. 9 (1) and (2) below).

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    (b) A Maintenance Allowance to apprentices receiving training in a technical institution or training centre (see para. 10 (1) below).
    (c) A Fees Allowance to cover the cost of the fees payable in respect of training in a technical institution or training centres.
    The above allowances would be payable up to a maximum of 104 weeks in the aggregate, and it will be necessary for the employer and the apprentices to enter into an agreement to comply with such terms and conditions as may be decided to be appropriate in any particular industry.
    Wages payable by Employer to the Apprentice.
    9. The employer will be required to pay to the apprentice wages as follows:
    (1) Up to the date on which the original apprenticeship would have ended or until he reaches the age of 21 (23 in Scotland in certain cases) whichever is the earlier:
    the wages (including war bonus) paid in that trade and district to apprentices in that year of training which the apprentice would have reached had his apprenticeship not been interrupted by war service.
    (2) Subsequently:
    not less than the fraction stated below of the journeyman's rate, including war bonus for the trade and district:

    (a) during the first half of the remaining period of training: ten-twelfths.

    (b) during the second half of the remaining period of training: eleven-twelfths.

    The wage so calculated will include the Wages Allowance payable by the State (see para. 8 (a)), and will be paid by the employer to the apprentice. The employer, on giving proof that the proper amount has been paid to the apprentice, will reclaim from the Ministry of Labour and National Service the amount of the Wages Allowance.
    Technical Training
    10.—(1) During the period of approved whole-time training in a technical institution or training centre the apprentice will be paid by the Minister an allowance at the same rates as may be fixed for the industrial training of new entrants.
    (2) Where an apprentice is released during normal working hours for part-time training in a technical institution or training centre, the wages payable by the employer as in para. 9 above will continue to rank for the Wages Allowance.
    (3) Where part of the renewed apprenticeship is served in a technical institution or training centre, such period will count for the purpose of calculating the amount of wages due to the apprentice in respect of that part of the renewed apprenticeship served in the employer's establishment.
    III. PREPARATION OF SCHEMES
    11. The Minister will invite the following bodies to prepare, in consultation with his Department a scheme appropriate to their industry or trade:
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    (1) National Joint Industrial Councils.

    (2) Trade Boards.

    (3) Other joint bodies which, in the opinion of the Minister, are sufficiently representative of the employers and work-people in their respective industries or trades.

    Where there is no such joint body the Minister himself may prepare a scheme to cover an industry or trade.
    12. Schemes will not become effective until they have been approved by the Minister, who will satisfy himself that each scheme complies with the minimum conditions and, in particular, each scheme should provide—

    (1) a definition of the occupations to be covered and the amount and character of training to be given in each case;

    (2) the arrangements for the administration of the scheme and for the manner in which applications for payment of allowances are to be made;

    (3) arrangements for dealing with any difficulties or disputes that may arise in connection with the application of the scheme to the particular industry or trade; and

    (4) a form of agreement to be entered into by the employer and the apprentice.

    13. It will be possible without legislation for the Minister to take the necessary steps to secure the proper observance of the schemes, and he will be able to suspend or discontinue allowances wherever that might seem necessary.

    Civil Defence Personnel
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to ensure that men and women who have rendered efficient service in the Civil Defence services and are no longer required there are found suitable employment.
    Mr. Bevin: Arrangements have been made for my Department to be given as much notice as possible of the discharge of such persons. My local officers will then do all they can to place them in the most suitable employment, having regard both to their skill and experience and the requirements of the war effort.
    Mr. Lipson: May I ask whether the local offices will be able to deal with men in more responsible positions, and, if not, what arrangements are being made for them? Could provisions be made for these men to be utilised by U.N.R.R.A.?
    Mr. Bevin: I cannot deal with the latter part of the question, because I have nothing to do with U.N.R.R.A., except that people come to me for personnel and I submit persons for them to select from. With regard to the first part of the supple-

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    mentary question, those in higher positions will be dealt with by the Appointments Department and the remainder through the normal channels.

    Equal Pay (I.L.O. Recommendations)
    Mr. Hyndasked the Minister of Labour what steps the Government is taking in pursuance of the obligations accepted in the Employment (Transition from War to Peace) recommendation of the I.L.O., 1944, towards encouraging the establishment of wage rates based on jab content without regard to sex.
    Mr. Bevin: In accordance with the usual procedure, proposals will be submitted to Parliament in due course with regard to the acceptance or otherwise of the Recommendations adopted by the International Labour Conference at Philadelphia.
    Mr. Hynd: In view of the fact that there is a provision that the recommendations shall be brought before Parliament in twelve months, and, in view of the fact that the Government are only now setting up their Royal Commission on this question, will the report be available for the House within the twelve months, so that we may consider these recommendations?
    Mr. Bevin: I am sure the hon. Member will agree that the war situation makes expedition difficult with these international reports, but I will do my best to keep it within the time.
    Mrs. Cazalet Keir: Was this question discussed at the I.L.O. Conference?

    Teachers
    Mr. Edmund Harveyasked the Minister of Labour what provision is being made for the demobilisation of teachers to meet the urgent need in the schools; and whether measures have been prepared to permit the return of lecturers and research workers to the universities in time to deal with the increased inflow of students which will follow upon a more general measure of demobilisation.
    Mr. Bevin: Provision is made in the Government's plan for re-allocation of man power after the defeat of Germany for the early release from the Forces of men and women required for urgent reconstruction work. I am now in consultation with my right hon. Friends the Minister of Education and the Secretary of
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    State for Scotland regarding the application of this provision to school-teachers. The re-allocation scheme also provides for the release of a strictly limited number of individual specialists and it is open to the appropriate authorities to apply for the release of individual research workers in this category.
    Mr. Harvey: Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that universities generally are in urgent need of a certain number of these lecturers to enable young officers and others demobilised from the Forces to go on with their educational work?
    Mr. Bevin: Yes, Sir, I am aware of the tremendous pressure from the universities, other educational authorities, and industry, in fact from everybody, to obtain the release of men, but I must keep in mind, as I stated earlier, that until victory is won, the need of the Forces must be paramount.
    Professor Savory: Will the right hon. Gentleman also consult the Minister of Education for Northern Ireland?

    CATERING AND TOURIST INDUSTRIES
    Mr. Martinasked the Minister of Labour when he expects the provisions of the Catering Act to be fully operative in London hotels; and whether he is satisfied with the progress made to date.
    Mr. Bevin: As my hon. Friend will see from the first annual report of the Catering Wages Commission, copies of which are available in the Vote Office, the Commission has reached a tentative view in favour of the establishment of a small number of wages boards which will cover, with isolated exceptions, the whole of the field. Since making this Annual Report, the Commission has announced its intention to recommend a wages board for unlicensed non-residential catering establishments and no doubt other proposals will follow shortly. I know that the Commission have proceeded with their investigations as expeditiously as possible, but, naturally, they have had to examine the facts thoroughly:
    Mr. Colegate: On a point of Order. May we have this window behind us closed, because of the draught?
    Viscountess Astor: I beg of you, Mr. Speaker, not to have the window closed, because it is terribly stuffy in here.
    Major Sir Edward Cado—anasked the Minister of Labour (1) whether, in view of the probable rush of tourists to England immediately after the cessation of hostilities in Europe, the Catering Wages Commission are taking any special steps to meet the requirements of visitors from overseas;
    (2) whether his attention has been drawn to a publication issued by Mr. R. G. Pinney, on behalf of the Travel and Industrial Development Association, entitled Britain, Destination of Tourists, drawing attention to the importance of developing the tourist traffic in this country; and whether he proposes to appoint an official national tourist organisation for this purpose.
    Mr. Bevin: I am aware of the publication referred to. Parliament decided that the Catering Wages Commission should be charged with the duty of enquiring into means for meeting the hotel and catering requirements of the public, including in particular, the requirements of visitors from overseas' and for developing the tourist traffic. Reference is made to this matter in the annual report of the Commission, which has been presented to Parliament, and I have asked the Commission to deal with this question as a matter of urgency.
    Sir E. Cadogan: In view of the millions spent by tourists in normal times in this country, and the loss of our useful exports, is the Minister still of opinion that the Catering Wages Commission is adequate, either in personnel or powers, to facilitate this all-important traffic?
    Mr. Bevin: They must investigate and report, and the decision will rest with Parliament as to the attitude to be taken on their report.
    Viscountess Astor: Will the Minister bear in mind that tourists want good food, good bathrooms, good coffeeg
    An hon. Member: And good beer.

    MILITARY SERVICE (BUILDING TRADE OPERATIVES)
    Mr. Molsonasked the Minister of Labour how many men have been called up from the building trades for service in the armed forces since 31st March,
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    1944; and how many of them are in the constructional companies of the Pioneer Corps.
    Mr. Bevin: So far as can be ascertained the number of men in building and civil engineering occupations who have been posted to the Forces since 31st March, 1944, is 10,371. These men were posted to the Navy, Army and Air Force, and I cannot say how many of them are now in constructional companies of the Pioneer Corps.
    Mr. Matson: Would the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the Secretary of State for War to see whether it would be possible for some of these men to be released for work in bomb-damaged areas?
    Mr. Bevin: I cannot do that. If I take these men out of the Army, I have to call-up an equal number from another strained industry. Most of these men are young men and essential to the Army. I must keep certain trade sections in the Services and I would have thought that my hon. Friend would have realised this during the advance through Holland.
    Mr. McEntee: Is the Minister aware that, at the present time, instructions are still with the local employment exchanges for the calling-up of slaters and tilers; and in view of the fact that we cannot provide cover for people who have been bombed out, does he not think that these people should not be called up?
    Mr. Bevin: I do not know whether I have any instructions for slaters and tilers, but there are no slaters or tilers to call up anywhere.
    Mr. McEntee: Well, there are, and they were being called up as recently as yesterday.

  EDUCATION

    Technical and Adult Education (Circular)
    Mrs. Cazalet Keirasked the Minister of Education whether he is aware of the deep concern caused by the decision in the first circular issued by his Ministry informing local education authorities that they would not be required to submit schemes for the provision of further education; and whether he will reconsider this decision.
    The Minister of Education (Mr. Butler): I am glad to say that the evidence I have from local education authorities does not confirm my hon. Friend's apprehensions. It seems to have been generally understood that this circular emphasises the vital importance in the national interest of the further development of technical and adult education and invites authorities to put forward interim proposals for such development. It would have been both unwise and unpractical to ask authorities to submit their complete schemes of further education under Section 42 of the Act at this stage. Apart altogether from the other burdens which the Act lays upon authorities, it has to be remembered that the whole technical efficiency of our country will depend upon the adequacy and suitability of these far-reaching schemes. They will need to be prepared not only in full consultation with representatives of industry but also with a knowledge of the post-war location of various industries. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
    Mrs. Cazalet Keir: In view of the large numbers of young men and women who will shortly be demobilised, does not my right hon. Friend think that it is vital and urgent that local authorities should have definite plans for further education at the earliest possible moment?
    Viscountess Astor: Is it not true that some local authorities are very much disturbed by this circular, particularly progressive ones; and is my right hon. Friend to give the non-progressive ones a chance to go to sleep?
    Mr. Woodburn: In view of the difficulty of finding material and labour for further education, is the right hon. Gentleman taking any steps to improve the quality of existing education?
    Mr. Butler: The answer to all these questions is in the affirmative. It is not my desire to see local authorities go to sleep nor is it my intention that they should do so. It is the intention that interim schemes shall be put into operation as soon as possible.
    Viscountess Astor: Is it not true that some local authorities are very much disturbed by this circular? My right hon. Friend said that authorities were not concerned but I assure him that it is so.

    School-leaving Age
    Mrs. Cazalet Keirasked the Minister of Education what new information became available during the 12 days between the passing of the Education Bill into law on 3rd August and the issuing of a circular by his Ministry on 15th August postponing the raising of the school-leaving age.
    Mr. Butler: If my hon. Friend will refer to Section 35 and Sub-section (3) of Section 108 of the Education Act, 1944, she will see that the effect of these sections read together is to require the Minister to raise the age at the earliest date from 1st April, 1945 and not later than 1st April, 1947, that is compatible with a sufficient supply of teachers and school accommodation to meet the needs of children between 14 and 15. I indicated to the House as early as 19th January last that it might be necessary to have recourse to the powers conferred on the Minister by Section 108. The need for reaching an early decision on the matter and for communicating it to local education authorities was accentuated by the disturbances to which we have been subjected this summer and the consequent increased burden on authorities in evacuation and reception areas. I should like to take this opportunity of stating that it is the Government's intention to see that the age is raised to 15 at the earliest moment that circumstances permit. Meanwhile, all the necessary steps are being taken to bring Parts II and IV of the Act into operation on 1st April next, and to remedy deficiencies in teaching power and school accommodation as far as war conditions allow.
    Mrs. Cazalet Keir: Whilst fully appreciating the reasons for postponing the date of the school-leaving age, why did not my right hon. Friend inform the House of Commons or move an Amendment before allowing the Bill to become law?
    Mr. Butler: The answer to that is that there was no need to move an Amendment. I have referred to a Section of the Act which was considered by Parliament and I informed the House as early as 19th January last that the use of this might be necessary.
    Mr. Greenwood: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that during the discussions on the Bill, although he gave

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    an indication of the difficulties with which he might be faced, continual pressure was brought to bear upon him at all stages; and in the last speech I made on the Third Reading, I referred to this question—[Horn. MEMBERS: "Speech."]—I am asking my right hon. Friend whether he really does appreciate how deeply the local authorities and organisations interested in education feel about this; and in view—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]—I am asking a question. I am asking my right hon. Friend whether, in view of the impairment and interruption of education of millions of children, intensified during this present period, it will not be possible for the Government to give urgent consideration to the question of the school; leaving age?
    Mr. Butler: I am aware of the disappointment caused, which I share myself, and it is my desire and the desire of the Government to see the Act implemented as quickly as possible. In answer to the right hon. Gentleman's request, 1 can say that the Government intend to do their utmost to meet the deficiencies of teaching staff and accommodation at the earliest possible moment.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is it not true that the right hon. Gentleman gave the general impression, in this House and in the country, when he was putting the Bill through, that it was intended to proceed next year with the raising of the school-leaving age? Is it not now the case that the Government are not in a position to make a firm and emphatic declaration, that they do not know when the age will be raised?
    Mr. Butler: The difficulties were referred to in the Section of the Act which was passed by this House dealing with accommodation and the provision of teachers. Those are circumstances governed by war conditions.
    Mr. Shinwell: The right hon. Gentleman ought to have said so then.
    Mr. Butler: I said so in the House on several occasions. I have no desire to deceive the House in any way. We have had Debates on this subject and the matter has been put from both sides of the House. One thing which I cannot control are the conditions to which I have referred. As I have said, it is my intention
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    and the intention of the Government to carry out this partcular part of the reforms as soon as we possibly can.

    Cyanide of Potassium (Theft from School)
    Commander Sir Archibald Southbyasked the Minister of Education whether his attention has been drawn to the theft from the science and chemistry cupboard of a school at Woolston, Southampton, of a quantity of cyanide of potassium; and for what purpose so large a quantity of this dangerous poison was being kept on the premises in such a way that it was possible for it to be stolen.
    Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. Schools providing courses in chemistry commonly carry a supply of cyanide of potassium which is used as a reagent. I understand that the quantity of this chemical kept at the school in question was not more than is usual and that reasonable precautions were taken to prevent access to it.
    Sir A. Southby: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it was stated that there was sufficient cyanide of potassium to kill 500 people, and that it was understood that the theft might have been committed by children? What steps is he taking to prevent this sort of thing happening in the future?
    Mr. Butler: I thoroughly investigated this case, and found that the precautions taken were as good as could be expected in the circumstances. The whole of the cyanide was recovered by the police intact, and nobody was poisoned.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: Is my right hon. Friend aware that had this incident been of such a nature that it ought to have been brought to the public notice, it would have been so brought by one of the Members for Southampton?

    Older Teachers (Income Tax)
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Education whether the Government will now consider the financial position of the older school-teachers who have some 35 to 40 years' service and who are now receiving some £40 per annum less, in hard cash, than they received in 1939; and whether he will take immediate steps to make suitable adjustments to alleviate these cases of hardship.
    Mr. Butler: I assume that ray hon. Friend has in mind the position of

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    teachers who, having reached the maxima of their scales of salary, have not benefited by increments of salary between 1939 and the present time. If so, the diminution of their net earnings as between the two dates must be due to the fact that the amount of additional Income Tax payable by them more than outweighs the benefits which they receive by way of war allowances. The incidence of Income Tax is a hardship shared in common with other classes of the community and there could be no justification for giving special treatment in this matter to teachers.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is my right hon. Friend aware that my Question also refers to uncertificated teachers, many of whom are undergoing great hardship? It is no use saying how sad it is. Why not do something practical?

    Camps (Control)
    Mr. Muffasked the Minister of Education the date on which he proposes to take over the various camps used by education authorities from Camp Corporations, Limited, and avoid the friction and inefficiency of dual control.

    England and Wales.

    Percentage of children present on a day in June, 1944, who received a midday meal and/or milk at school,

    —

    Meals.

    Milk.

    Free.

    On Payment.

    Total.

    Free.

    On Payment.

    Total.

    Public Elementary Schools …

    4·6

    26·1

    30·7

    8·8

    67·6

    76·4

    Meals.

    Milk.

    Grant-aided Secondary Schools

    52·9

    60·0

    No figures are available showing the numbers of pupils in secondary schools who received meals or milk free and on payment respectively. The cost of dinners varies somewhat between area and area and between school and school, but on the average amounts to about 9d. in public elementary schools and to rather more than 10d. in secondary schools. Of these amounts parents are normally charged approximately the cost of the food which at the present time is about 5d. in public elementary schools and rather over 6d. in secondary schools, the balance being attributable to fuel, staff and other overheads.
    Mr. Butler: The way in which the national camps can most effectively be used in future, after they cease to be needed in connection with the Government evacuation scheme, raises a number of points which are under consideration by the chief interests concerned; I am unable to accept all the implications contained in the last part of the Question.

    School Meals and Milk
    Miss Rathboneasked the Minister of Education what is, approximately, the average percentage of children in attendance in elementary schools and, separately, in State-aided secondary schools, who receive school dinners on any one school-day, now or at the latest date for which figures can be given; what percentage of the same groups receive school milk, whether free or paid for by the parent; what is estimated to be the cost per dinner; and whether it includes raw materials only or also cost of fuel, staffs and other incidentals.
    Mr. Butler: As the answer consists of a number of figures I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:

  PUBLIC HEALTH

    Maternity Cases (Accommodation)
    Sir John Wardlaw-Milneasked the Minister of Health what arrangements have been made for the provision of accommodation for maternity cases in the town of Redditch; and whether he is aware of the strong feeling in the town at the absence of a maternity home.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Willink): I am informed that maternity cases from Redditch for whom institutional confinements are necessary on medical grounds are being accommodated in maternity hospitals and homes in other parts of the

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    county and that conveyance by ambulance, with an attendant midwife has been arranged. I have received a letter from the urban district council as to the absence of provision in the urban district itself and I am sending to my hon. Friend a copy of the reply which has been sent to them.
    Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that this system of sending people from Redditch to places 10 or 12 miles away is causing great hardship? Is he aware that a number of confinements have actually taken place in the ambulance and that there is considerable resentment in Redditch about it where thousands of people, war workers who have been brought into the town, are living in extremely unsatisfactory housing conditions?
    Mr. Willink: I am sure my hon. Friend will appreciate that it is not possible to provide a maternity hospital within 10 miles of every expectant mother. The situation has been difficult throughout the war and is particularly difficult now, owing to the fluid state of the population during the last few months.
    Dr. Edith Summerskill: Is the Minister aware that this shortage of maternity accommodation obtains in every part of the country, and that the matter has been brought up time and time again in this House and no action has been taken?
    Mr. Willink: It is not the case that no action has been taken. In spite of all war-time difficulties the number of maternity beds has increased by over 50 per cent. during the war. The difficulties are now obvious to everyone.
    Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne: While everyone will realise that it is not possible to provide maternity accommodation always within 10 miles, is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that we are dealing here with a town which has probably doubled its population during the war and in which the demand for such accommodation is extremely urgent?

    Tuberculosis Maintenance Scheme
    Mr. James Griffithsasked the Minister of Health why allowances made to young persons under the Tuberculosis Maintenance Scheme cease after the lapse of six months; and if he will revise the scheme so as to provide for payment continuing whilst the patient is disabled.
    Mr. Willink: The general principle of the scheme to which my hon. Friend refers is that allowances are payable to eligible patients, so long as treatment which promises to restore working capacity is continued under the direction of the Tuberculosis Officer. If he will let me have details of any particular case which has given rise to his Question, I shall gladly make enquiries.

    Mental Hospital Nurses (Report)
    Mr. W. J. Brownasked the Minister of Health what his intentions are in respect of the recommendations of the Third Report of the Rushcliffe Committee.
    Mr. Willink: I assume my hon. Friend has in mind the Report of the Mental Nurses Sub-Committee presented to me by the Nurses Salaries Committee, and I would refer him to the reply which I gave on 3rd August to my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Mr. Foster).
    Mr. Brown: In those cases where conditions in mental hospitals are more favourable than those recommended in the Rushcliffe Report will the Minister assure the House that this Report will not be used as an instrument to lower the standard in those hospitals?
    Mr. Willink: I am answering a Question later on that precise point.

    Penicillin (Availability)
    Mr. Kendallasked the Minister of Health whether in view of the fact that penicillin is available to German prisoners, for wounds or diseases of all types in which this drug is effective, he will take immediate steps to make it available for British civilians in those cases where death would otherwise result.
    Mr. Willink: As my hon. Friend is aware, His Majesty's Government is required by the Geneva Convention to care for wounded prisoners of war, without distinction of nationality, equally with our own personnel. The bulk of the penicillin at present available is required for Service cases, and I regret that the amount which can be released for the treatment of civilians is not sufficient to enable penicillin to be given to every case which might conceivably benefit from it. It is necessary, therefore, to reserve this small amount for the treatment of cases in which it may be the only means of saving life

    409
    or of effecting recovery from grave illness and in which the prospects of recovery are high.
    Mr. Kendall: Is it not a fact that we are getting large supplies now from the United States of America? I want to ask whether or not it is more desirable to give British citizens a chance of liiving than the Germans?
    Mr. Willink: I have made it quite clear that His Majesty's Government are bound in this matter by the Geneva Convention.
    Mr. Bowles: When I tell my right hon. and learned Friend of a case in which five young women died within two hours in a hospital, will he perhaps believe that the supply of penicillin in that hospital is much too short?
    Mr. Willink: If my hon. Friend will give me details of such a case I shall be able to look into it.
    Mr. Kendall: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    Hospitals (Service Patients' Rations)
    Sir Leonard Lyleasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction which is caused by the present arrangement under which only those emergency service hospitals who have 20 per cent. or more Service cases can apply for an additional allowance of meat to enable them to give adequate rations to Service patients; and whether steps can now be taken to ensure that these hospitals are given the right to obtain full Service rations for their Service patients so that they will not have to draw on their civilian ration quotas in order to give adequate nourishment to wounded Service men.
    Mr. Willink: No, Sir. Apart from one or two individual complaints I have no evidence of dissatisfaction with the arrangement under which the increased allowance of meat is not given to hospitals with less than 20 per cent. Service patients. In such hospitals I am advised that the rationed and unrationed foods available should provide a proper dietary for both Service and civilian patients. This, however, is one of the matters kept under observation by my officers who inspect the feeding arrangements in E.M.S. hospitals.
    Sir L. Lyle: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether it is reasonable to ask hospitals to take Service cases and not give them Service rations, thereby forcing them to draw on the civilian ration for those patients? The hospitals are having a difficult enough time anyhow.
    Mr. Willink: This matter is very carefully watched, but I can assure my hon. Friend that there are in present circumstances a very substantial number of Service patients in the emergency service hospitals who are not ready to take or enjoy even the civilian ration.

    Water Supply, Tydd and Newton, Wisbech.
    Mr. Alexander Walkdenasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Wisbech Waterworks Company, which has the prerogative of supplying the parishes of Tydd and Newton but has resisted all applications from the inhabitants for a supply to be provided, is seeking to prevent an adjoining water undertaking from giving a supply to these parishes; and whether he will insist upon water being provided without delay in view of the loss of time and danger to health involved under present circumstances.
    Mr. Willink: I understand that the Wisbech rural district council have applied to the Wisbech Waterworks Company, within whose statutory limits of supply the parishes of Tydd and Newton are included, for their consent to proposals whereby the district council would supply these two parishes with water obtained from the adjoining rural district of East Elloe, and that the company have now invited the Council to discuss the matter with them. I am awaiting the result of this discussion. I propose in any case to direct a local inquiry to be held into the council's proposals before coming to any decision whether the scheme (which the council have already submitted to me) can be allowed to proceed at the present time.
    Mr. A. Walkden: Will the Minister be kind enough to urge expedition in this matter, in view of the fact that farmers have suffered a great loss of time and expense in carting water throughout the long period of drought?
    Mr. Willink: I am anxious to do so but the Council sent me their proposals only on the 18th of this month.

    HOUSING

      Rent Restriction Committee
      Viscount Hinchingbrookeasked the Minister of Health whether he is now in a position to say when the Rent Restriction Committee will present its Report?
      Mr. Willink: No, Sir. I understand, however, that the Committee has completed the hearing of oral evidence, and that its further meetings will be devoted to reaching decisions on principles and the preparation of its Report.
      Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman do his best to expedite the issue of the Report?
      Mr. Willink: Certainly, Sir. I am doing so.

      Small Dwellings
      Mr. Kirbyasked the Minister of Health whether the Government will include in their post-war housing programme the adequate provision of two and three-roomed flats and other dwellings suitable for persons of limited means such as old age pensioner couples, spinsters, and other persons living alone who require the minimum of accommodation at rents appropriate to their limited incomes.
      Mr. Willink: Yes, Sir. Suggestions for designs for such dwellings are included in Housing Manual, 1944, published on the 25th September, copies of which have been sent to all local authorities in England and Wales.
      Mr. Kirby: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman be good enough to circulate that pamphlet to all Members of this House?
      Mr. Willink: It is available in the Vote Office for all Members of Parliament.

      Flying Bomb Damage, London
      Mr. W. J. Brownasked the Minister of Health if he will state the total number of dwellings in the London Civil Defence region which, as a result of the flying bomb attack were destroyed, or so badly damaged as to need demolition; seriously damaged and not habitable; seriously damaged but inhabited; and less seriously damaged, respectively.
      Mr. Willink: The revised figures just received from local authorities indicate that the number of houses destroyed or damaged beyond repair is 25,511, the
      412
      number seriously damaged and not habitable 52,277, those seriously damaged but habitable 77,030, and those less seriously damaged 873,177.
      Mr. W. J. Brown: Arising out of that reply, will the Minister be good enough to pass those figures to the Minister of Labour and ask him to revise the reply which he gave to my Question some time ago?
      Mr. Willink: The Minister of Labour is fully aware of the situation in London in this matter.
      Mr. Thorne: Do these figures refer to the whole of the country? If so, the calculations are a long way out.
      Mr. Willink: No, Sir. The Question referred to the London Civil Defence Region.
      Mr. Thorne: You are a long way out with that; West Ham alone has as many houses down.

      OLD AGE PENSIONS
      Lieut.-Colonel Sir Ian Fraserasked the Minister of Health to what extent old age supplementary pensions are reduced in cases where a pensioner takes in evacuees.
      Mr. Willink: The usual rule is that billeting payments are disregarded in assessing supplementary pensions. Exceptional cases·for example, where a number of evacuees are billeted on the same pensioner or where some private arrangement is made between the parties —are dealt with on their individual facts; and if my hon. and gallant Friend has a particular case in mind I shall be glad to have inquiry made if he will let me have the details.
      Sir I. Fraser: Does my right hon. and learned Friend realise that the taking in of evacuees in substantial numbers is not really a normal way of earning a living, but is something like a national service? Since the whole thing will soon be over, or we hope it will, cannot he put his staff on to some other job?
      Mr. Willink: It is the case, and the very frequent case, that private arrangements, which lead to a considerable increase of income, are made in respect of evacuees, and I think the method of considering individual cases must be the right one.

      BOARD OF (TRADE CONSTITUTION)
      Mr. De la Bèreasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the development and extension of the matters dealt with by the Board of Trade, he will consider sub-dividing this Department into three, with someone at the head of each Department directly responsible to the Government, having regard to the impossibility of any one Minister being able adequately to control the expansion which has taken place since the outbreak of hostilities.
      The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): No, Sir.
      Mr. De la Bgre: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is urgent need for an overhaul at the Board of Trade? Is he not further aware that many of the systems want recasting now? It is impossible to cope with the various matters now under the existing system.
      Mr. Eden: My hon. Friend's suggestion, so far as I understand it, is that there should be three more Ministries. This might be a tempting point-of-view for the Government but not necessarily I think a judicious one.
      Mr. De to Bgre: What I am asking is that there shall be an overhaul.
      Mr. Shinvvell: Can we not expect that some of the existing Ministers may go as we are reaching the end of the wargfor instance, the Ministers of Production and Information?

      GERMAN INVASION PREPARA TIONS, 1940
      Sir Leonard Lyleasked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to state the facts of the invasion of this country attempted by the Nazis in 1940 and in 1942.
      Mr. Eden: As regards 1940, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has nothing to add to the reply which he gave to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leeds West (Major Vyvyan Adams) on 20th June last. As regards 1942, I know of no attempted invasion of this country by the Germans and I do not believe that they were then in a position to make such an attempt.

      OVERSEAS SERVICE
      Mr. Burkeasked the Prime Minister if he has given further consideration to the possibility of equalising the period of service overseas as between personnel in the Army and the Air Force; and with what result.
      Mr. Eden: I have nothing to add to the statement which I made to the House on 29th June last in the absence of the Lord President of the Council.
      Mr. Burke: Will the Minister bear in mind that these men are drafted into either Service not of their own choice but to meet national needs? Surely an effort should be made to find more equality of treatment?
      Mr. Eden: If my hon. Friend will remember that answer, he will also remember that the matter was gone into at very great length then, and all the circumstances set out, and they are very often circumstances over which the Government cannot have control in a time of operations.

      GERMANY (PEACE TERMS)
      Mr. Stokesasked the Prime Minister whether the Morgenthau proposal to destroy Germany as an industrial state was considered at Quebec; whether it had the approval of His Majesty's Government; and for what reason Mr. Cordell Hull and Mr. Stimson did not take part in the discussions.
      Mr. Eden: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is sure that it would be most undesirable to discuss the terms which are to be imposed upon Germany when she has been defeated, in a piecemeal fashion on Questions prompted by rumour and hearsay. Such matters are of the greatest consequence and must be the subject of agreement between the principal Powers.
      Mr. Stokes: But is my right hon. Friend aware that this report has been in responsible newspapers in this country and in America? Is he further aware that if the Morganthau plan is carried out, it will lead to the general lowering of the standard of living throughout Europe and, in the opinion of a great many people, another war will follow?
      Mr. Eden: I have seen reports in the Press but, on the whole, it is judicious in these matters perhaps not to found oneself exclusively on reports in the Press.
      Mr. Stokes: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether it is totally inaccurate that this matter was discussed at Quebec?
      Mr. Eden: No, Sir, I am afraid that my hon. Friend will not draw me out on that.
      Mr. Silverman: While recognising the inadvisability of discussing the matter piecemeal, when will the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to give us a complete account of what proposals are to be made?
      Mr. Eden: Clearly I could not be in a position to do that until consultation with our Allies has been made.
      Mr. Silverman: When will that be?
      Mr. Eden: I could not say.
      Mr. McGovern: Is it completely out of Order now for hon. Members of this House to ask about anything that has been discussed in any of these conferences?
      Mr. Eden: Subject to you, Mr Speaker, it is never out of Order for anybody to ask anything of that kind but it is still within the discretion of Ministers as to what they reply.

    AGRICULTURE

      Warble Fly Damage
      Mr. Saltasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that the annual loss from damage to hides by warble fly attack amounts to nearly £1,000,000; and whether he can now make arrangements for the compulsory dressing of cattle with suitable antidotes.
      The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): I am aware of the damage caused to hides by warble fly, but in view of the practical difficulties I am not at present proposing to re-impose a requirement of compulsory dressing.

      Disabled Service Personnel (Training)
      Sir I. Fraserasked the Minister of Agriculture what scheme there is to enable disabled officers and men to receive
      416
      agricultural training at universities or agricultural colleges; and if he will publish details.
      Mr. Hudson: Awards may be made under the Further Education and Training Scheme announced in this House by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service on 25th March, 1943, to enable suitably qualified men and women released from the armed forces or other forms of full-time war service to take degree or diploma courses in agriculture and allied subjects at University Departments of Agriculture and Agricultural Colleges. Applications from persons discharged through disability or on medical grounds are already being accepted and a number of awards have been made. Details of the Scheme, which was designed for full operation after the war, were published at the time of the original announcement, and an explanatory leaflet can be obtained by any interested person on application to the Ministry of Labour and National Service.
      Sir I. Fraser: Will my right hon. Friend consider this point? It has been the practice to put disabled men on to farms or into industry rather than to train them. It is much better for them, and ultimately for the nation, to get them trained. Will he see that that is done as far as his Department is concerned?
      Mr. Hudson: My hon. and gallant Friend's Question refers to men and women suitable for professional and higher technical posts to obtain the necessary training. I have answered that. Separate arrangements are being made for the training of those who intend to take up practical work on the land under the scheme announced a few weeks ago.

      Wheat Storage and Drying Plant
      Brigadier-General Clifton Brownasked the Minister of Agriculture whether; in order to ensure a six months' supply of bread being always available in this country in times of emergency and to have a weapon wherewith to control gluts and slumps in the home market, he will consider the erection of wheat storage plants in this country as part of his long term agricultural policy after the war.
      Mr. Hudson: The Government have erected during the war a certain number of wheat storage and drying plants which are now under the control of my right

      417
      hon. and gallant Friend the Minister of Food. I am not in a position to say whether further plants will be necessary as part of the Government's long term agricultural policy, but I anticipate that many of the larger wheat growers will wish to install storage on their farms in association with combine harvesters. Any such development would, of course, add to the grain storage capacity of the country in addition to the considerable amount of storage already in the hands of millers and merchants.
      Brigadier-General Clifton Brown: Will my right hon. Friend not take the advice of the late Lord Ernle, Minister of Agriculture after the last war, for the Government to build so many wheat storage erections?
      Mr. Hudson: Conditions at the end of the last war and after this one will no doubt prove to be very different.

      Wages
      Mr. Loverseedasked the Minister of Agriculture why the claim for an increase in the wages of agricultural workers has been adjourned by the Central Wages Board; and whether he will consult with that board with a view to the immediate reopening of negotiations.
      Mr. Hudson: The Agricultural Wages Board is a statutory body and I have no power to intervene in its decisions or procedure.
      Mr. Loverseed: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these men are getting less than half the average rate for workers? Does he not think it is time that some recognition was made of their work?
      Mr. Hudson: I have answered the Question on the Paper.

      Steel Sheets and Billets (Traders)
      Captain Stricklandasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the selected list of stockists issued for steel sheets and bolts, it is the Government's policy to encourage trade through the agricultural executive committees; and whether, in selecting traders, regard is had to the fact of whether or no such traders have previously handled these-types of goods.
      Mr. Hudson: I do not know what my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind in
      418
      referring to a selected list of stockists, but in any case the answer to the first part of the Question is in the negative.

      Post-War Policy
      Mrs. Beatrice Wrightasked the Minister of Agriculture when he will be in a position to make a statement on post-war agricultural policy.
      Mr. Hudson: I cannot say.

      Water Supply Schemes (Piping)
      General Sir George Jeffreysasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will, before approving of any grant-aided water supply scheme, make certain, in the interests both of the public purse and of the individuals concerned, that the piping used is of such a quality or is given such treatment with tar or varnish as will ensure for it a reasonably long period of usefulness.
      Mr. Hudson: Galvanised pipes have been available since the beginning of this year for grant-aided water supply schemes. The black iron piping which is all that was available in 1943 and earlier is liable to be less satisfactory; but if properly treated should have a reasonable length of life. The treatment that may be necessary depends largely on local conditions and is a matter for the applicant for grant who should look to the contractor undertaking the work and to any other persons concerned for advice.
      Sir G. Jeffreys: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in fact grants were approved but that the piping is only likely to have a reasonably long life if suitably treated? Was not that a very bad bargain for the public purse and also for the individuals concerned?
      Mr. Hudson: Failure in the particular case to which my attention was drawn is due first of all to the applicant not obtaining proper advice. Secondly, the statement by the, water companies concerned regarding the probable length of life of the black iron piping used in 1943 and earlier appears on the face of it to be very exaggerated.
      Sir G. Jeffreysasked the Minister of Agriculture how many grants of money towards installing piped-water supplies to farmhouses and cottages have hitherto been made under recent legislation; and how many applications for such help have been received.
      Mr. Hudson: This scheme was only recently instituted, and I regret that the statistics for which my hon. and gallant Friend asks are not available.

      Barley and Oats (Storage)
      Lieut.-Colonel Heneageasked the Minister of Agriculture if he will increase the proportion of barley and oats which the farmer can keep in cases where it has sprouted or been severely damaged in the field.
      Mr. Hudson: A farmer is entitled to keep all the oats he has grown. The percentage of tailings and screenings of barley which a farmer can retain without formality is being increased from 5 to 10 per cent. on 1st October next. Where damaged grain and tailings would exceed 10 per cent. of a threshing the grower can apply to a malting barley merchant for a certificate which would enable him to keep damaged or sprouted grain that is unfit for malting or the manufacture of human food.
      Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this damage is in some cases over 50 per cent. and will the permits cover these cases?
      Mr. Hudson: I should like to see that Question on the Paper.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Arthur Greenwood: May I ask what is the Business for next week, and will the Leader of the House also state the course of Business to-day?
Mr. Eden: The Business for next week will be as follows:
Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, 3rd, 4th and 5th October—Committee stage of the Town and Country Planning Bill.
Friday, 6th OctobergSecond Reading of the House of Commons (Redistribution of Seats) Bill, and, if there is an opportunity we hope to take the Second Reading of the Unemployment Bill and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
From conversations which have taken place, we hope the House will agree to take the remaining stages of the Housing (Scotland) Bill as first Order to-morrow.
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During the week we propose to take the Motion to approve the Milk Marketing (County of Moray) (Charges) Order.
As regards the Business for to-day, I understand, if you, Sir, are willing to give your approval, that it might be agreeable if there were a short Adjournment for the luncheon hour about 1.15.
Mr. Speaker: I am in the hands of the House but I am sure the House would not wish to impose an undue physical strain on the Prime Minister.
Mr. Shinwell: Before the Recess the Leader of the House gave some indication of a possible Debate on shipbuilding. Can he say anything about that matter now?
Mr. Eden: That is in our minds. It is one of the Debates we propose to have before the end of the Session.
Mr. Stokes: When is it proposed to give the House an opportunity of discussing the Bretton Woods Conference and, when that comes about, will the right hon. Gentleman consider allowing at least two full days?
Mr. Eden: I have not a date in mind at present, still less am I prepared to say two days until I know what the House as a whole would like.
Sir H. Williams: When will the Coal Charges Order be taken?
Mr. Eden: We have till 8th November before that need be taken. It is a little while yet.
Mr. Bellenger: The Prime Minister said earlier in the week that the House would have an opportunity of debating the Government's White Paper on demobilisation. Have they made up their minds when it will be possible to debate that important matter?
Mr. Eden: If there is a general desire, arrangements will be made for a Debate, but the matter had best be discussed through the usual channels.
Mr. Tinker: When will time be given for the Social Insurance White Paper? Will it be in operation before the end of the Session?
Mr. Eden: The answer to the second part of the question is "No." As to the first part, I think hon. Members would still like a little time to study the Paper.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS
That they have passed a Bill intituled, "An Act to provide for the adjustment and settlement of debts and liabilities arising in certain areas, and to amend the Liabilities (War-time Adjustment) Act,1941."
LIABILITIES (WAR-TIME ADJUSTMENT) BILL [Lords]
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 46.]

WAR AND INTERNATIONAL SITUATION
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—{Mr. James Stuart).
12.5 p.m.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): Little more than seven weeks have passed since we rose for the summer vacation, but this short period has completely changed the face of the war in Europe. When we separated, the Anglo-American Armies were still penned in the narrow bridgehead and strip of coast from the base of the Cherbourg Peninsula to the approaches to Caen, which they had wrested from the enemy several weeks before. The Brest Peninsula was untaken, the German Army in the West was still hopeful of preventing us from striking out into the fields of France, the Battle of Normandy, which had been raging bloodily from the date of the landing, had not reached any decisive conclusion. What a transformation now meets our eyes! Not only Paris, but practically the whole of France, has been liberated as if by enchantment. Belgium has been rescued, part of Holland is already free, and the foul enemy, who for four years inflicted his cruelties and oppression upon these countries, has fled, losing perhaps 400,000 in killed and wounded and leaving in our hands nearly half a million prisoners. Besides this, there may well be 200,000 cut off in the coastal fortresses or in Holland whose destruction or capture may now be deemed highly probable. The Allied Armies have reached and in some places crossed the German frontier and the Siegfried Line.
All these operations have been conducted under the supreme command of General Eisenhower, and were the fruit of the world-famous battle of Normandy, the greatest and most decisive single battle of the entire war. Never has the exploitation of victory been carried to a higher perfection. The chaos and destruction
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wrought by the Allied Air Forces behind the battle front have been indescribable in narrative and a factor of the utmost potency in the actual struggle. They have far surpassed, and reduce to petty dimensions all that our Army had to suffer from the German Air Force in 1940. Nevertheless, when we reflect upon the tremendous fire power of modern weapons and the opportunity which they give for defensive and delaying action, we must feel astounded at the extraordinary speed with which the Allied Armies have advanced. The vast and brilliant encircling movement of the American Armies will ever be a model of military art, and an example of the propriety of running risks not only in the fighting—because most of the armies are ready to do that—but even more on the Q. side, or, as the Americans put it, the logistical side. It was with great pleasure that all of us saw the British and Canadian Armies, who had so long fought against heavy resistance by the enemy along the hinge of the Allied movement, show themselves also capable of lightning advances which have certainly not been surpassed anywhere.
Finally, by the largest airborne operation ever conceived or executed, a further all-important forward bound in the North has been achieved. Here I must pay a tribute, which the House will consider due, to the superb feat of arms performed by our First Airborne Division. Full and deeply moving accounts have already been given to the country and to the world of this glorious and fruitful operation, which will take a lasting place in our military annals and will, in succeeding generations, inspire our youth with the highest ideals of duty and of daring. The cost has been heavy; the casualties in a single division have been grievous; but for those who mourn there is at least the consolation that the sacrifice was not needlessly demanded nor given without results. The delay caused to the enemy's advance upon Nijmegen enabled their British and American comrades in the other two airborne divisions, and the British Second Army, to secure intact the vitally important bridges and to form a strong bridgehead over the main stream of the Rhine at Nijmegen. "Not in vain" may be the pride of those who have survived and the epitaph of those who fell.

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To return to the main theme, Brest, Havre, Dieppe, Boulogne and Antwerp are already in our hands. All the Atlantic and Channel ports, from the Spanish frontier to the Hook of Holland, will presently be in our possession, yielding fine harbours and substantial masses of prisoners of war. All this has been accomplished by the joint exertions of the British and American Armies, assisted by the vehement and widespread uprising and fighting efforts of the French Maquis. While this great operation has been taking its course, an American and French landing on the Riviera coast, actively assisted by a British airborne brigade, a British Air Force and the Royal Navy, has led with inconceivable rapidity to the capture of Toulon and Marseilles, to the freeing of the great strip of the Riviera coast and to the successful advance of General Patch's Army up the Rhone Valley. This Army, after taking over 80,000 prisoners, joined hands with General Eisenhower, and has passed under his command. When I had the opportunity on 15th August of watching—alas, from afar—the landing at San Tropez, it would have seemed audacious to hope for such swift and important results. They have, however, under the spell of the victories in the North, already been gained in superabundance and in less than half the time prescribed and expected in the plans which were prepared beforehand. So much for the fighting in France.
Simultaneously with that, very hard and successful fighting on a major scale has also proceeded on the Italian front. General Alexander, who commands the Armies in Italy with complete operational discretion, has under him the Fifth and Eighth Armies. The Fifth Army, half American and half British, with whom are serving the fine Brazilian Division, some of whose troops I had the opportunity of seeing—a magnificent band of men—is commanded by the United States General Clark, an officer of the highest quality and bearing, with a proud record of achievements behind him and his troops. The Eighth Army, under General Oliver Leese, whose qualities are also of the highest order, comprises the Polish Corps which fought so gallantly under General Anders, and a Greek Brigade which in happier surroundings has already distinguished itself in the forefront of the battle. There are also fighting on this front a strong force of Italians, who are
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ardent to free their country from the German grip and taint. This force will very soon be more than double in strength, The Lieutenant of the Realm is often with these troops.
The largest mass of all the troops on the Italian front come, of course from the United Kingdom. Not far short of half the divisions on the whole front are from this Island. Joined with them are New Zealand, Canadian, South African and Indian Divisions, or perhaps I should say British-Indian Divisions, because, as is sometimes forgotten, one-third of them are British. The British Army in Italy includes also Palestinian units; and here I would mention the announcement, which hon. Members may have read, and which I think will be appreciated and approved, that the Government have decided to accede to the request of the Jewish Agency for Palestine that a Jewish Brigade group should be formed to take part in active operations. I know there are vast numbers of Jews serving with our Forces and the American Forces throughout all the Armies, but it seems to me indeed appropriate that a special Jewish unit, a special unit of that race which has suffered indescribable torments from the Nazis, should be represented as a distinct formation amongst the forces gathered for their final overthrow, and I have no doubt they will not only take part in the struggle but also in the occupation which will follow.
A very hard task lies before the Army in Italy. It has already pierced at several points the strong Gothic line by which Kesselring has sought to defend the passage of the Apennines. I had an opportunity of watching and following the advance of the Eighth Army across the Metauro River, which began on 26th August. The extraordinary defensive strength of the ground held by the enemy was obvious. The mountain ridges rise one behind the other in a seemingly endless succession, like the waves of the sea, and each had to be conquered or turned by superior force and superior weapons. The process was bound to be lengthy and costly, but it is being completed, has, in fact, been practically completed. At the same time, General Clark's Fifth Army, advancing from the Florence area, has pierced deep into the mountain ranges, and, having broken the enemy's centre, now stands on the Northern slopes of the

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Apennines at no great distance from Bologna, a place of definite strategic importance. General Alexander has now definitely broken into the basin of the Po, but here we exchange the barriers of mountain ridges for the perpetual interruption of the ground by streams and canals. Nevertheless, conditions henceforward will be more favourable for the destruction or rout of Kesselring's Army, and this is the objective to which all British and Allied Forces will be unceasingly bent. Further than that, it is not desirable to peer at the present moment.
I am now going to give a few facts and figures about the operations in Europe. These have been very carefully chosen to give as much information as possible to the House and to the public, while not telling the enemy anything he does not already know, or only telling him too late for it to be of any service to him. The speed with which the mighty British and American Armies in France were built up is almost incredible. In the first 24 hours a quarter of a million men were landed, in the teeth of fortified and violent opposition. By the 20th day 1,000,000 men were ashore. There are now between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 men in France. [An HON. MEMBER: "Good old War Office."]Certainly the progress in the power of moving troops and landing troops has vastly increased since the early days, when we had to plunge into the war with no previous experience. But the actual number of soldiers was only part of the problem of transportation. These Armies were equipped with the most perfect modern weapons and every imaginable contrivance of modern war, and an immense artillery supported all their operations. Enormous masses of armour of the highest quality and character gave them extrordinary offensive power and mobility. Many hundreds of thousands of vehicles sustained their movements, many millions of tons of stores have already been landed—the great bulk of everything over open beaches or through the synthetic harbours which I described when last I spoke to the House.
All this constitutes a feat of organisation and efficiency which should excite the wonder and deserve the admiration of all military students, as well as the
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applause of the British and American nations and their Allies. I must pay my tribute to the United States Army, not only in their valiant and ruthless battle-worthy qualities, but also in the skill of their commanders and the excellence of their supply arrangements. When one remembers that the United States four or five years ago was a peace-loving Power, without any great body of troops or munitions, and with only a very small regular Army to draw their commanders from, the American achievement is truly amazing. After the intense training they have received for nearly three years, or more than three years in some cases, their divisions are now composed of regular professional soldiers whose military quality is out of all comparison to hurriedly raised war-time levies. These soldiers, like our own from Great Britain who have been even longer under arms, are capable of being placed immediately on landing in the battle line, and have proved themselves more than a match for the so-called veteran troops of Germany who, though fighting desperately, are showing themselves decidedly the worse for wear. When I think of the measureless output of ships, munitions and supplies of all kinds with which the United States has equipped herself and has sustained all the fighting Allies in generous measure, and of the mighty war she is conducting, with troops of our Australian and New Zealand Dominions, over the spaces of the Pacific Ocean, this House may indeed salute our sister nation as being at the highest pinnacle of her power and fame.
I am very glad to say that we also have been able to make a worthy contribution. Some time ago, a statement was made by a Senator to the effect that the American public would be shocked to learn that they would have to provide 80 per cent. of the Forces to invade the Continent. I then said that at the outset of the invasion of France the British and American Forces would be practically equal, but that thereafter the American build-up would give them steadily the lead. I am glad to say that after 120 days of fighting we still bear, in the cross-Channel troops, a proportion of two to three in personnel and of four to five-and-a-half in fighting divisions in France. Casualties have followed very closely the proportions of the numbers. In fact, these troops fight so level that the casualties almost exactly

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follow the numbers engaged. We have, I regret to say, lost upwards of 90,000 men, killed, wounded and missing, and the United States, including General Patch's Army, over 145,000. Such is the price in blood paid by the English-speaking democracies for the actual liberation of the soil of France.
When this view is extended to cover the entire European scene and the campaigns both in France and Italy, it will be a source of satisfaction to the House to know that after more than five years of war, we still maintain almost exactly the same number of divisions, taking both theatres together, in full action against the enemy as the United States have, by all the shipping resources which can be employed, yet been able to send to Europe. Considering that the population of the Empire—of British race—is only 70,000,000, and that we have sustained many losses in the early years of the war, it certainly is a remarkable effort and one which was most fully and cordially recognised by our American colleagues, the Chiefs of Staff and others at the recent Conference at Quebec.
In thus trying to do justice to the British and American achievements, we must never forget, as I reminded the House before we separated, the measureless services which Russia has rendered to the common cause, through long years of suffering, by tearing out the life of the German military monster. The terms in which Marshal Stalin recently, in conversation, has referred to our efforts in the West have been of such a generous and admiring character that I feel, in my turn, bound to point out that Russia is holding and beating far larger hostile forces than those which face the Allies in the West, and has through long years, at enormous loss, borne the brunt of the struggle on land. There is honour for all. It is a matter of rejoicing that we, for our part and in our turn, have struck resounding blows, and it is right that they should be recorded among the other feats of arms so loyally performed throughout the Grand Alliance.
I must again refer to the subject of the campaign in Burma on which I touched in my last statement to the House. I was somewhat concerned to observe from my reading of the American Press, in which I indulged during my stay on the other side, that widespread misconception exists
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in the public mind, so far as that is reflected by the newspapers, about the scale of our effort in Burma and the results to date of Admiral Mountbatten's campaign. Many important organs of United States' opinion seem to give the impression that the British campaign in Burma of 1944 had been a failure, or at least a stalemate, that nothing much had ben done, and that the campaign was redeemed by the brilliant capture of Myitkyina—which I may say is spelt "Myitkyina" but pronounced "Michynaw"—by General Stilwell at the head of an American Regiment of very high class commando troops and with the assistance of the Chinese. That is the picture, but I must, therefore, set matters in their true light, It is well known that the United States has been increasingly engaged in establishing an air route to China capable of carrying immense supplies, and, by astounding efforts and at vast cost, they are now sending over the terrible Himalayas, or the Hump as it is called in the Army, I will not say how many times as much as the Burma Road has ever carried in its palmiest days, or will carry for several years to come; an incredible feat of transportation—over mountains 20,000 or 22,000 feet high in the air, over ground where an engine failure means certain death to the pilot—has been performed by a main effort which the United States made in their passionate desire to aid the resistance of China. Certainly no more prodigious example of strength, science and organisation in this class of work has ever been seen or dreamed of.
Along the Eastern frontier of India stands the 14th British Imperial Army comprising the main war effort of India, including some of the most famous Indian Divisions from the Middle East and a substantial proportion of United Kingdom troops and Divisions, together with some excellent Divisions from Africa—native Divisions from Africa, West Africa principally. This Army under Admiral Mountbatten—amounting to between 250,000 and 300,000 men, apart from rearward services which, in that theatre of extraordinary long and precarious communications, are very great—has by its aggressive operation guarded the base of the American air line to China and protected India against the horrors of a Japanese invasion. Once again, India and her vast population have reposed serenely

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among the tumults and hurricanes of the world behind the Imperial shield. The fact should sometimes be noted that under British rule in the last 80 years incomparably fewer people have perished by steel or firearms in India than in any similar area or community on the globe.
Mr. McGovern: Many perished of hunger.
The Prime Minister: As the population has increased by 50,000,000 in the last 10 years it is evident that the famine, which was caused by military conditions last year affecting transport, is by no means representative of the administration under which the broad peninsula and triangle of India has met an increase in population exceeding the speed of any increase in any other country throughout the whole world. I think it a very remarkable fact that India has received this shelter and has been this vast harbour of peace, protected by the arms and policy of Great Britain, protected also by the care and attention of this House. In this the brave fighting races of India have at all times borne a most honourable and memorable part.
I regret to say the fighting on the Burma front throughout the year has been most severe and continuous, and there were times when the issue in particular localities appeared to hang in doubt. However, the 10 Japanese Divisions which were launched against us with the object of invading, India and cutting the air line have been repulsed and largely shattered as the result of a bloody and very costly campaign which is still being continued in spite of the monsoon conditions. How costly this campaign has been in disease may be judged from the fact that in the first six months only of this present year the 14th British Imperial Army sustained no fewer than 237,000 cases of sickness which had to be evacuated to the rear over the long, difficult communications and tended in hospital. More than go per cent. of these cases returned within six months, but the ceaseless drain upon the Army and the much larger numbers required to maintain a fighting strength, in spite of this drain, in the neighbourhod of a quarter of a million may well be imagined. When you have a loss and drain like that going on, much larger numbers are needed to maintain your limited fighting strength. In addition, there were over 40,000 battle
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casualties in the first six months, that is to say, to the end of June, and the number has certainly increased by now
I think these facts ought to be known; I think they ought to be given wide publicity, as I am sure they will now that I have stated them, because the campaign of Admiral Mountbatten on the Burma frontier constitutes—and this is a startling fact—the largest and most important ground fighting that has yet taken place against the armies of Japan. Far from being an insignificant or disappointing stalemate, it constitutes the greatest collision which has yet taken place on land with Japan, and has resulted in the slaughter of between 50,000 and 60,000 Japanese and the capture of several hundred prisoners. The Japanese Army has recoiled before our troops in deep depression and heavily mauled. We have often, too, found circles of their corpses in the jungle where each one had committed suicide in succession, the officer, who had supervised the proceedings, blowing out his own brains last of all. We did not ask them to come there, and it is entirely their own choice that they find themselves in this difficult position.
We must expect, however, a renewal of the Japanese offensive as soon as the monsoon is over, and every preparation iS being made to meet it with the utmost vigour. Nelson said, "If in doubt, a captain cannot do wrong if he places his ship alongside one of the enemy." The engagement of the Japanese on the largest possible scale on land—and certainly not less in the air—is part of the official wearing down process which marks the present phase of the war against Japan, and this function our 14th Army has certainly discharged with the utmost fidelity and success in spite of the inordinately heavy toll of disease. I trust that this toll will be markedly reduced in future operations. We have discovered many preventives of tropical disease, and, above all, against the onslaught of insects of all kinds, from lice to mosquitoes and back again.
The excellent D.D.T. powder, which has been fully experimented with and found to yield astonishing results, will henceforward be used on a great scale by the British Forces in Burma and by American and Australian Forces in the Pacific and, indeed, in all theatres, to-

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gether with other remedies constantly improving, and these will make their effect continually manifest. The Japanese, I may mention, also suffer from jungle diseases and malaria which are an offset against the very heavy losses which are suffered by our Indian and white and African troops. These remedies will be a help to all the Allies; indeed, they have been a help. The eradication of lice in Naples by the strict hygienic measures taken may be held to have averted a very grievous typhus epidemic in that city and neighbourhood when we occupied it. I can assure the House that the war against the Japanese and other diseases of the jungle will be pressed forward with the utmost energy.
I must here note with keen regret that in spite of the lavish American help that has been poured into China, that great country, worn by more than seven years of war, has suffered from severe military reverses involving the loss of valuable airfields upon which the American squadrons of General Chennault were counting. This, of course, is disappointing and vexatious. When we survey the present state of the European and Asiatic wars as a whole, the House will, I am sure, wholeheartedly acclaim the skill and enterprise of the generals and the tireless courage and fighting qualities of the troops, and they may even feel disposed to view without any special mark of disapprobation the management, combination and design which it reveals on the part of the Allied staffs, and even on the part of the Governments concerned.
But we must not forget that we owe a great debt to the blunders—the extraordinary blunders—of the Germans. I always hate to compare Napoleon with Hitler, as it seems an insult to the great Emperor and warrior to connect him in any way with a squalid caucus boss and butcher. But there is one respect in which I must draw a parallel. Both these men were temperamentally unable to give up the tiniest scrap of any territory to which the high watermark of their hectic fortunes had carried them. Thus, after Leipzig in 1813, Napoleon left all his garrisons on the Rhine, 40,000 men in Hamburg. He refused to withdraw many other vitally important elements of his armies, and he had to begin the campaign of 1814 with raw levies and a few seasoned troops brought
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in a hurry from Spain. Similarly, Hitler has successfully scattered the German armies all over Europe, and by obstinating at every point from Stalingrad and Tunis down to the present moment, he has stripped himself of the power to concentrate in main strength for the final struggle.
He has lost, or will lose when the tally is complete, nearly 1,000,000 men in France and the Low Countries. Other large armies may well be cut off in the Baltic States, in Finland and in Norway. Less than a year ago, when the relative weakness of Germany was already becoming apparent, he was ordering further aggressive action in the Aegean and the re-occupation of the islands which the Italians had surrendered, or wished to surrender. He has scattered and squandered a very large army in the Balkan Peninsula, whose escape will be very difficult; 27 divisions, many of them battered, are fighting General Alexander in Northern Italy. Many of these will not be able to re-cross the Alps to defend the German Fatherland. Such a vast frittering away and dispersal of forces has never been seen, and is, of course, a prime cause of the impending ruin of Germany.
When Herr Hitler escaped his bomb on 20th July he described his survival as providential; I think that from a purely military point of view we can all agree with him, for certainly it would be most unfortunate if the Allies were to be deprived, in the closing phases of the struggle, of that form of warlike genius by which Corporal Schickelgruber has so notably contributed to our victory. There is a great deal more mopping up to be done in the Low Countries and in some of the French Atlantic ports, and the harbours have to be cleared and developed on the greatest scale possible before the winter gales. Problems of supply have to be resolved on the morrow of the prodigious British and American advances, and I deprecate very much people being carried away into premature expectations of an immediate cessation of the fighting. It is very hard not to be, when, each day, the papers are filled—rightly filled—with the news of the captures of important places and of advances of the Armies; but there is still a great deal to be done in the military sense.
Hitherto, as I have said, during the first four critical months in Europe, we

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have managed to be an equal, or almost equal, partner with the United States, but now, of course, the great flow of their well-trained divisions from across the Atlantic will, step by step, carry them decisively into the leading position, and, unless organised German resistance collapses in the near future, enormous additional United States Forces will be brought to bear in the final struggle. I shall certainly not hazard a guess—it could be no more—as to when the end will come. Many persons of the highest technical attainments, knowledge and responsibility have good hopes that all will be over by the end of 1944. On the other hand, no one, and certainly not I, can guarantee that several months of 1945 may not be required.
There is also a possibility that after the organised resistance of the German army and State is completely broken, fierce warfare may be maintained in the forests and mountains of Germany by numbers of desperate men, conscious of their own guilt and impending doom. These, of course, would, at a certain stage, deserve the treatment which the Germans have so ruthlessly meted out to guerilla movements in other countries. It may be necessary for the Allies to declare at a certain date that the actual warfare against the German State has come to an end and that a period of mopping up of bandits and war criminals has begun. No one can foresee exactly what form the death agony of Nazidom will take. For us, the important decision will be to choose the moment when substantial Forces can be withdrawn from Europe to intensify the war against Japan. We certainly do not consider that the declared date of the ending of the war against Germany must necessarily be postponed until the last desperado has been tracked down in his last lair.
There is no doubt that surpassing victories gained in common make a very agreeable foundation for inter-Allied Conferences like that which has just finished. It is really very much better and very much more pleasing to share victories than it is to share disasters. We have shared both, and I can tell the House that the former is in every way a more exhilarating process. I took occasion to associate Canadian, Australian and New Zealand representatives with our work. I have
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also, with our Chiefs of the Staff, attended a meeting of the Dominion of Canada Cabinet and have received both from Mr. Mackenzie King and Mr. Curtin the most cordial expressions of satisfaction at the manner in which our affairs were conducted and of agreement in the decisions taken. I have also been in very full correspondence, as I often am, with Field-Marshal Smuts and also with Mr. Fraser. Certainly when the President and I with our respective staffs met at Quebec, we had behind us a record of successful war which justified feelings of solemn satisfaction, and warmed the glow of our brotherhood in arms.
It is now two years almost to a day since Rommel's final offensive against Cairo was repulsed by the newly appointed Generals Alexander and Montgomery, a month before their decisive victory at Alamein, and since that time our affairs all over the world, and the affairs of our mighty Ally Russia, have proceeded without a single reverse of any kind, except only the loss of Leros and Cos in the Aegean, and even those will ultimately turn out to be a loss to Hitler rather than to the Allies. Such a long and mounting tide of victory is unexampled in history. The principal Governments of the Allies have every right to claim the confidence of the United Nations in the new efforts that will be required from all of us and in the further designs which have been conceived and shaped and have still to be unfolded in action. Complete agreement on every point was reached at Quebec by the Combined Chiefs of Staff. The President and I have both pursued a policy of making no changes other than those enforced by death, as in the lamented loss of Admiral Pound, in the Chiefs of the Staff charge: with the conduct of the war.
In this country there have been none of those differences between the professional and the political elements such as were evident in a large measure in the former war. We have worked together in perfect harmony. Our confidence in the Chiefs of Staff—British confidence and the confidence of the War Cabinet—has steadily grown. In consequence of the fact that there have been no changes, the men who met together at Quebec knew each other well, were united in bonds of comprehension and friendship, and had the whole picture and sequences of the war ingrained

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in their minds and in their very being. When you have lived through all these things you do not have to turn up musty files to remember what happened on particular occasions. Men's minds are shaped from day to day by what they live through; and the discussion on that level between these high officers is very very quick and swift.
Obviously, our discussions were concerned with the successful winding up of the war in Europe by bringing about the unconditional surrender of Germany at the earliest moment, and also with the new phase of the war against Japan which will dominate all minds and command all resources from the moment when the German war is ended. On behalf of His Majesty's Government, nearly two years ago, I assured the President that Great Britain would pursue the war against Japan with all her strength and resources to the very end. As I explained to Congress when I last addressed them, we have losses to repair and injuries to repay on the Japanese account at least equal to, if not indeed greater than, those suffered by the United States. We owe it to Australia and New Zealand to help them to remove for ever the Japanese menace to their homelands; and as they have helped us on every front in the fight against Germany, we will certainly not be behindhand in giving them effective aid.
Our perseverance in this quarrel is not to be doubted. I offered some time ago to embody this undertaking in a definite treaty, but the President made the courteous reply that the British word was enough. That word we shall certainly make good. Accordingly, we offered to the United States the fine, modern British Fleet, and we asked that it should be employed in the major operations against Japan. This offer was at once cordially accepted. A large portion of this fleet is already gathered in the Indian Ocean. For a year past, our modern battleships have been undergoing a further measure of modernisation and tropicalisation to meet the rapid war-time changes in technical apparatus. We have already, nine months ago, begun the creation of an immense Fleet train, comprising many vessels, large and medium, specially fitted as repair ships, recreation ships for personnel, provision and munition ships and many modern variants, in order that our Fleet may have a degree
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of mobility which for several months together will make them largely independent of main shore bases. A substantial portion of the vessels which we shall use for this purpose have been building in Canada, for it is found better and more economical to adapt new merchant ships while they are building to the exact purpose they have to fulfil than to convert existing vessels, although that process has also been carried very far. Thus we hope to place in the Pacific a fleet capable in itself of fighting a general action with the Japanese Navy and which, added to the far greater United States naval power, should give a naval command in all these vast ocean spaces and seas of the most complete and decisive character.
One must certainly contemplate that a phase in the war against Japan will be the severe, intense, prolonged and ever-increasing air bombardment to which the Japanese mainland installations and munitions centres will be subjected. In this also we shall bear our part to the utmost limit which the bases will allow. As for the land or amphibious operations which the British Empire will conduct, these must rightly be veiled in mystery. Suffice it to say that the scale of our effort will be limited only by the available shipping. In this however we may presently receive a magnificent addition. The end of the U-boat war, when it comes, will allow us to go out of convoy in the Western hemisphere, thus adding at a bound at least 25 per cent. to the efficient carrying capacity of our Mercantile Marine, and a larger percentage to the carrying capacity of tankers.
I must, however, add a word of caution about taking too optimistic views of the speed at which this great transference of forces can be made from one side of the world to the other. Not only will the Allied shipping, vast as it is and far greater as it is than at the beginning of the war, be a limiting factor, but the development of bases, the accumulation of stores and supplies and the construction and protection of airfields all impose restraints upon those vivid, imaginative strategists who carry fleets and armies across the globe as easily as they would help themselves to a plate of soup. The huge distances, the tropical conditions and other physical facts, added to the desperate resistance of the enemy, make the war against Japan an enterprise of the first

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magnitude, and it will be necessary to use to the full the resources of machinery and science to enable our Armies to do their work under the most favourable conditions and with the least sacrifice of Allied life. When all these aspects are considered the House may rest assured that the entire brain and technical power of Great Britain and the United States will be ceaselessly employed, and having regard to the results already obtained in so many directions, one may feel good confidence that it will not be employed in vain.
I have now reached the close of the military aspect of what I have to say, and it might be convenient for the House, it certainly would be an indulgence to, I must not say the speaker, but the orator, if we could have an interlude for lunch, and I would respectfully ask, I will not say the Leader of the Opposition but my right hon. Friend opposite, whether he would be in accord with such proceedings?
Mr. Arthur Greenwood: The House would be only too delighted to grant my right hon. Friend the facilities he needs at this stage.
Mr. Speaker: The Sitting will be suspended, and I will take the Chair again at 2 o'clock exactly.
1.7 p.m.
Sitting suspended.
On resuming—
2.I p.m.
The Prime Minister: When we were last assembled here I had completed a review of the military situation which, although not by any means complete or exhaustive, yet, I trust, gave the general outline of our position at the present time from the point of view of one who has special opportunities of seeing things in their broad perspective. The foreign situation has responded to military events. Never was the alliance against Germany of the three great Powers more close or more effective. Divergencies of view and interest there must necessarily be, but at no time have these been allowed to affect in any way the majestic march of events in accordance with the decisions and agreements at Teheran. One by one, in rapid succession, the satellite States have writhed or torn themselves free from the
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Nazi tyranny, and, as is usual in such cases, the process has not been one from alliance with Germany to neutrality, but from alliance with Germany to war. This has taken place in Roumania and Bulgaria. Already there is fighting between the Finns and the Germans. The Germans, in acordance with their usual practice and character, are leaving a trail of burnt and blackened villages behind them, even in the land of their unhappy Finnish dupes.
Hungary is still in the Nazi grip, but when, as will happen, that grip is broken by the steel hammer blows of war, or when it relaxes by reason of the internal lesions and injuries of the tyrant, the Hungarian people will turn their weapons, with all their remaining strength, against those who have led them through so much suffering to their present ruin and defeat. The armistice terms agreed upon for Finland and Roumania bear, naturally, the imprint of the Soviet will—and here I must draw attention to the restraint which has characterised the Soviet treatment of these two countries, both of which marched blithely behind Hitler in his attempted destruction of Russia, and both of which added their quota of injuries to the immense volume of suffering which the Russian people have endured, have survived, and have triumphantly surmounted.
The Bulgarian armistice terms have not yet been signed. The Soviet intervention in this theatre was at once startling and effective. Their sudden declaration of war against Bulgaria was sufficient to induce Bulgaria to turn her catiff armies against the German intruders. Britain and the United States have long been at war with Bulgaria and have now joined with the Soviets in framing suitable armistice conditions. The Bulgarian people have been plunged by their leaders in the last 35 years into three wrongful, forlorn and disastrous wars, and in this last war we cannot forget the many acts of cruelty and wickedness for which they have been responsible both to Greece and Yugoslavia. They have suffered nothing themselves. No foot has been set upon their soil. Apart from some air bombardment, they have suffered nothing. Some of the worst war criminals are Bulgarians. The conduct of their troops in harrying and trying to hold down, at Hitler's orders, their two sorely-pressed

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small neighbours, Greece and Yugoslavia, is a shameful page for which full atonement must be exacted. They may want to be treated as co-belligerents. So far as Great Britain is concerned, they must work their passage for a long time and in no uncertain fashion before we can accord them any special status, in view of the injuries that our Allies Greece and Yugoslavia have sustained at their hands. In the meantime, let them march and destroy all the Germans they can find in enemy lands. We do not want them in those of our Allies. This is the only path which will serve them and their interests. The more vigour with which they fall upon the Germans, the more they will be likely to draw the attention of the victorious nations in arms from their previous misdeeds.
It would be affectation to pretend that the attitude of the British and, I believe, the United States Governments towards Poland is identical with that of the Soviet Union. Every allowance must be. made for the different conditions of history and geography which govern the relationship of the Western democracies on the one hand and of the Soviet Government on the other with the Polish nation. Marshal Stalin has repeatedly declared himself in favour of a strong friendly Poland, sovereign and independent. In this our great Eastern Ally is in the fullest accord with His Majesty's, Government and also, judging from American public statements, in the fullest accord with the United States. We in this Island and throughout our Empire who drew the sword against mighty Germany, we who are the only great unconquered nation which declared war on Germany on account of her aggression against Poland, have sentiments and duties towards Poland which deeply stir the British race. Everything in our power has been and will be done to achieve, both in the letter and in the spirit, the declared purposes towards Poland of the three great Allies.
Territorial changes on the frontiers of Poland there will have to be. Russia has a right to our support in this matter, because it is the Russian Armies which alone can deliver Poland from the German talons; and after all the Russian people have suffered at the hands of Germany they are entitled to safe frontiers and to have a friendly neighbour on their
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Western flank. All the more do I trust that the Soviet Government will make it possible for us to act unitedly with them in the solution of the Polish problem, and that we shall not witness the unhappy spectacle of rival Governments in Poland, one recognised by the Soviet Union and the other firmly adhered to by the Western Powers. I have fervent hopes that M. Mikolajczyk, the worthy successor of General Sikorski, a man firmly desirous of friendly understanding and settlement with Russia, and his colleagues may shortly resume those important conversations at Moscow which were interrupted some months ago.
It is my duty to impress upon the House the embarrassment to our affairs and the possible injury to Polish fortunes which might be caused by intemperate language about Polish and Russian relations in the course of this Debate. It is my firm hope, and also my belief, that a good arrangement will be achieved and that a united Polish Government will be brought into being, which will command the confidence of the three great Powers concerned and will assure for Poland those conditions of strength, sovereignty and independence which we have all three proclaimed as our aim and our resolve. Nothing is easier than to create by violent words a prospect far less hopeful than that which now opens before us. Hon. Members will take upon themsleves a very grave responsibility if they embroil themselves precipitately in these controversies and thus mar the hopes we cherish of an honourable and satisfactory solution and settlement. We recognise our special responsibilities towards Poland, and I am confident that I can trust the House not to engage in language which would make our task harder.
We must never lose sight of our prime and overwhelming duty, namely, to bring about the speediest possible destruction of the Nazi power. We owe this to the soldiers, who are shedding their blood and giving their lives in the cause at this moment. They are shedding their blood in the effort to bring this fearful struggle in Europe to a close; and that must be our paramount task. Every problem—and there are many; they are as legion; they crop up in vast array—which now faces the nations of the world will present itself in a far easier and more adaptable form once the cannons have ceased to

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thunder in Europe and once the victorious Allies gather round the table of armistice or peace. I have every hope that wise and harmonious settlements will be made, in confidence and amity, between the great Powers, thus affording the foundations upon which to raise a lasting structure of European and world peace. I say these words on the Polish situation; and I am sure that our friends on both sides will realise how long and anxious has been the study which the Cabinet have given to this matter, how constantly we see representatives of the Poles, how frequent and intimate our correspondence is with Russia on this subject.
I cannot conceive that it is not possible to make a good solution whereby Russia gets the security which she is entitled to have, and which I have resolved that we shall do our utmost to secure for her, on her Western frontier, and, at the same time, the Polish nation have restored to them that national sovereignty and independence, for which, across centuries of oppression and struggle, they have never ceased to strive.
Turning to another difficult and tangled problem, the House will already have read the joint statement by the President and myself which we drafted together, embodying a very definite and distinct improvement and mitigation in our relationships with the Italian Government. During my visit to Italy, I had an opportunity of seeing the leaders of all parties, from the extreme Right to the extreme Communist. All the six parties represented in the Italian Government came to the British Embassy, and I had the pleasure of making the acquaintance of all the different Ministers who are working together, as well as they can, in conditions necessarily difficult and depressing. I had conversations with the Prime Minister, Signor Bonomi, and also talked with him and Marshal Badoglio together. They are friends. The Marshal has very faithfully observed the conditions imposed by the armistice a year ago. He has done his best to send all Italian forces, particularly naval forces, into the struggle against Germany, and he has worked steadfastly for the improvement of relations between Italy and Britain and between Italy and the Allies. His behaviour on leaving office, in giving cordial support to his successor, is also creditable. Finally, I had the advantage
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of an interview with the Lieutenant of the Realm, whose sincerity and ardour in the Allied cause and whose growing stature in Italian eyes are equally apparent. [Interruption.] I give my opinion, and I dare say it will weigh as much as a mocking giggle.
What impressed and touched me most in my journey through Italy was the extraordinary good will to the British and American troops everywhere displayed by the Italian people. As I drove through the small towns and villages behind the line of the Armies day after day, the friendliness and even enthusiasm of the peasants, workmen and shopkeepers, indeed, of all classes, were spontaneous and convincing. I cannot feel—I make my confession—any sentiments of hostility towards the mass of the misled or coerced Italian people. Obviously, no final settlement can be made with them or with their Government until the North of Italy and its great cities have been liberated and the basis on which the present Government stand has been broadened and strengthened. There are good hopes that this will be achieved, I might say soon, but it would be safer to say in due course. Indeed, it would be a miserable disaster if the Italian people, after all their maltreatment by their former Allies and by the Fascist remnants still gathered round Mussolini, were to emerge from the European struggle. only to fall into violent internal feuds. It was for that reason, on leaving Rome, that I tried to set before the Italian nation some of those broad, simple, Liberal safeguards and conceptions which are the breath of our nostrils in this country—so much so that we scarcely notice them—and which sustain the rights and freedoms of the individual against all forms of tyranny, no matter what liveries they wear or what slogans they mouth.
We were, all of us, shocked by the horrible lynching outrage which occurred in the streets of Rome a week or so ago. Every measure of precaution and authority must be taken to prevent outbreaks of mob vengeance, however great the provocation may have been, and, for this, responsibility rests, not only with the Italian Government, but ultimately with the Allied military power. Punishment for criminals who have committed most cruel, barbarous acts under the orders of the Germans, of

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men who have made themselves the agents of the betrayal of the 300 or 400 hostages shot en masse in the catacombs of Rome—punishment for them there must certainly be, but it must be the punishment of courts of justice, with the strictest adherence to the forms and principles of justice. This shameful incident has been a baffling factor in the Italian scene. Nevertheless, it has not deterred us from issuing the joint statement to which I have already referred, and which, so far as Great Britain is concerned, was, of course, approved by the War Cabinet before I gave my agreement to it.
I turn from the Italian scene. Nothing has given the British nation and the King's Dominions all over the world more true joy than the wonderful spectacle of the rescue of France by the British and American arms, of the rescue of France from the horrible oppression of the Hun under which she has writhed or languished for four hideous years. It is now nearly 40 years since I first became convinced that the fortunes of Great Britain and France were interwoven, and that their military resources must be combined in the most effective manner, by alliance and agreement and plan, and I think I can claim to have pursued this object through all the changing scenes we have witnessed, not only before and during the last war, but in the uneasy interval between the two wars, and not only in years of success, but during the period of blackest disaster, and also during periods when there was friction on other grounds between the two countries.
Bearing in mind some mistakes in our own policy between the wars; bearing in mind also the failure of the League of Nations, in consequence, largely, of the falling out of America, and other weaknesses for which other Powers are responsible, to give general security to the world; bearing in mind the withdrawal of the United States from the Anglo-American guarantee against German aggression promised by President Wilson, on the strength of which France relinquished her claims on the Rhine frontier; bearing in mind, above everything, the loss of nearly 2,000,000 men which France, with her small and declining population, sustained in bearing the brunt, as she bore it, of the last war, and the terrible effect of this unexampled
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blood-letting upon the whole heartbeat, the life heartbeat, of France; bearing all this, and much else, in mind, I have always felt the liveliest sympathy for the French in the years when we watched, supinely, the dreadful and awe-inspiring growth of the German power.
It will be remembered that we told the French Government that we would not reproach them for making a separate peace in the fearful circumstances of June, 1940, provided they sent their Fleet out of the reach and power of the Germans. The terms of the Cabinet offer to France in this tragical hour are also on record. I, therefore, have never felt anything but compassion for the French people as a whole who found themselves deprived of all power of resistance and could nit share the good fortune of those who, from our shores or in the French Empire, had the honour and opportunity to continue the armed struggle. What could a humble, ordinary man do? He might be on the watch for opportunity, but he might be rendered almost powerless. The Maquis have shown one way in which, at the end, and after much suffering, and having overcome all the difficulties of getting weapons, free men may strike a blow for the honour and life of their country; but that is given to the few, to the young and active, those who can obtain weapons.
For my part, I have always felt that the heart of the French nation was sound and true, and that they would rise again in greatness and power, and that we should be proud to have taken a part in aiding them to recover their place in the van of the nations and at the summit of the cultural life of the world. Long have we looked forward to the day when British and American troops would enter again the fields of France, and, regardless of loss and sacrifice, drive the foe before them from towns and cities famous in history, and often sacred to us for the memories of the last war and of the dear ones, whose memories abide with us and who rest in French soil. Often have we longed to receive, and dreamed of receiving, the gratitude and blessings of the French people as our delivering Armies advanced. This has been given to us in unstinted measure, and it has been, indeed, a glorious experience to witness and a glorious experience for the Armies to enjoy this marvellous trans-

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formation of scene, and for us to feel that we have acted up to our duties as a faithful Ally to the utmost limit of our strength.
I have repeatedly stated that it is the aim, policy and interest of His Majesty's Government, of this country of Great Britain, and of the Commonwealth and Empire to see erected once more, at the earliest moment, a strong, independent and friendly France. I have every hope that this will soon be achieved. The French people, working together as they must do for their lives and future, in unity of purpose, with sincerity and courage, have a great chance of building a new and undivided France who will take her rightful place among the leading nations of the world.
In my last statement to the House, I spoke of the importance of including representatives of France in all the discussions affecting the Rhine frontier and a general settlement of West Germany. Hitherto, by force of circumstances, the French Algiers Committee could not be a body representative of France as a whole. Now, however, progress has been made. Naturally, that body has new elements, especially amongst those who formed the Maquis and resistance movements and among those who raised the glorious revolt in Paris, which reminded us of the famous days of the Revolution, when France and Paris struck a blow that opened the path broadly for all the nations of the world. Naturally, we, and, I believe, the United States and the Soviet Union, are most anxious to see emerge an entity which can truly be said to speak in the name of the people of France—the whole people of France. It would now seem possible to put into force the decree of the Algiers Committee whereby, as an interim stage, the Legislative Assembly would be transformed into an elected body, reinforced by the addition of new elements drawn from inside France. To this body, the French Committee of National Liberation would be responsible. Such a step, once taken, when seen to have the approval of the French people, would greatly strengthen the position of France and would render possible that recognition of the Provisional Government of France, and those consequences thereof, which we all desire to bring about at the earliest moment. I close no doors
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upon a situation which is in constant flux and development. The matter is urgent, however, for those, of whom I am one, who desire to see France take her place at the earliest moment in the high councils of the Allies. We are now engaged in discussing these matters both with the French and with other Allied Governments, and I am hopeful that, in the near future, a happy settlement will be reached to the satisfaction of all concerned.
I should like to take this opportunity to express our gratification and pride at the part played by British troops in the liberation of Belgium. The House will have read of the tumultuous welcome with which our troops were everywhere greeted by the Belgian people. This also I regard as a happy augury for the maintenance and strengthening of the ties of friendship between our two countries. Many hundreds of thousands of our dead sleep on Belgian soil, and the independence of that country has always been a matter sacred to us as well as enjoined by our policy. I should like to acknowledge in this House the many agreeable things that were said about this country in the Belgian Parliament when it re-assembled last week. I trust that the day is not far distant when our Forces will also have completed their task of liberating the territory of our staunch and sorely tried friends and Allies in Holland—Allies in the war of the Spanish Succession and in all the struggles for the establishment of freedom in Europe. They are also very near to us in thought and sympathy and their interests at home, and also abroad, command British support and are largely interwoven with our own fortunes.
I have had to deal with these countries one by one. I now come to the broader aspect, as far as I can touch upon it today, which can only be in a very tentative and partial manner. Since 21st August conversations between representatives of this country, the United States and the Soviet Union have been taking place at Dumbarton Oaks, in the United States, on the future organisation of the world for preventing war. It is expected that similar conversations will follow between the United Kingdom and the American delegations with the representatives of China. These conversations have been on the official level only and do not in any way bind the Governments represented. There has, however, been

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assembled a body of principles and the outline of the kind of structure which in one form or another it is the prime purpose of the Allies to erect after the unconditional surrender and total disarmament of Germany have been accomplished. His Majesty's Government could have had no abler official representative than Sir Alexander Cadogan, and there is no doubt that a most valuable task has been discharged. The whole scene has been explored and many difficulties have been not merely discovered, but adjusted. There are, however, still some important questions outstanding. and we ought not to be hurried into decisions upon which united opinion by the various Governments responsible is not at present ripe. It would not be prudent to press in a hurry for momentous decisions governing the whole future of the world. The House must realise—and I am sure it does realise, I can see by the whole attitude of the House to-day that it fully realises—that it is one thing for us here to form and express our own opinions on these matters and another to have them accepted by other Powers as great as we are.
There is another warning which I would venture to give to the House, and that is, not to be startled or carried away by sensational reports and stories which emanate from the other side of the Atlantic. There is an election on, and very vivid accounts of all kinds of matters are given by people who cannot possibly have any knowledge of what has taken place at secret conferences. The United States is a land of free speech; nowhere is speech freer, not even here where we sedulously cultivate it even in its most repulsive form. But when I see some of the accounts given of conversations that I am supposed to have had with the President of the United States, I can only recall a Balfourian phrase at which I laughed many years ago, when he said that the accounts which were given bore no more relation to the actual facts than the wildest tales of the Arabian Nights do to the ordinary incidents of domestic life in the East. I may say that everything depends on the agreement of the three leading European and world Powers, I do not think satisfactory agreement will be reached—and unless there is agreement nothing can be satisfactory—until there has been a further meeting of the three heads of Government assisted as may be
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necessary by their Foreign Secretaries. I must say that I think it is well to suspend judgment and not to try to form or express opinions on what can only be partial and incomplete accounts. I earnestly hope it may be possible to bring about such a meeting before the end of the year. There are great difficulties but I hope they may be overcome. The fact that the President and I have been so closely brought together at the Quebec Conference and have been able to discuss so many matters bearing upon the course of the war and on the measures to be taken after the Germans surrender and also for the broad future, makes it all the more necessary that our third partner, Marshal Stalin, who has, of course, been kept informed, should join with us in a tripartite conference as soon as the military situation renders this possible. The future of the whole world, and certainly the future of Europe, perhaps for several generations, depends upon the cordial, trustful and comprehending association of the British Empire, the United States and Soviet Russia, and no pains must be spared and no patience grudged which are necessary to bring that supreme hope to fruition.
I may say at once, however, that it will not, in my opinion, be possible for the great Powers to do more, in the first instance, than act as trustees for the other States, great or small, during the period of transition. Whatever may be settled in the near future must be regarded as a preliminary, and only as a preliminary, to the actual establishment in its final form of the future world organisation. Those who try in any country to force the pace unduly will run the risk of overlooking many aspects of the highest importance, and also by imprudence they can bring about a serious deadlock. I have never been one of those who believe that all the problems of the immediate future can be solved while we are actually engaged in a life and death struggle with the German and Nazi power and when the course of military operations and the development of the war against Japan must increasingly claim the first place in the minds of those in Britain and the United States upon whom the chief responsibility rests.
To shorten the war by a year, if that call be done, would in itself be a boon greater than many important acts of legislation. To shorten this war, to bring it to an end, to bring the soldiers home, to

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give them a roof over their heads, to reestablish the free life of our country, to enable the wheels of commerce to revolve, to get the nations out of their terrible frenzy of hate, to build up something like a human world and a humane world—it is that that makes it so indispensable for us to struggle to shorten, be it even by a day, the course of this terrible war.
It is right to make surveys and preparations beforehand and many have been made and are being made, but the great decisions cannot be taken finally, even for the transition period, without far closer, calmer, and more searching discussions than can be held amid the clash of arms. Moreover, we cannot be blind to the fact that there are many factors, at present unknowable, which will make themselves manifest on the morrow of the destruction of the Nazi regime. I am sure this is no time for taking hard and fast momentous decisions on incomplete data and at breakneck speed. Hasty work and premature decisions may lead to penalties out of all proportion to the issues immediately involved. That is my counsel to the House, which I hope they will consider. I hope that the House will notice that, in making my statement to-day, I have spoken with exceptional caution about foreign affairs, and, I hope, without any undue regard for popular applause. I have sedulously avoided the appearance of any one country trying to lay down the law to its powerful Allies or to the many other States involved. I hope, however, that I have given the House some impression of the heavy and critical work that is going forward and will lie before us even after the downfall of our principal enemy has been effected. I trust that; what I have said may be weighed with care and good will not only in this House and in this country but also in the far wider circles involved.
2.45 P.m.
Mr. Arthur Greenwood: The House has listened, as is always the case on these occasions, with the deepest interest to the Prime Minister, and we have had to-day as on earlier occasions a comprehensive and very masterly analysis and survey of the whole of the military situation. As my right hon. Friend has reminded us, we are listening now under circumstances entirely different from those
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which prevailed when my right hon. Friend made his last statement in the House, and I think in all quarters of the House we may express our justifiable pride in the wonderful prowess displayed by our Forces over the water during recent weeks, and express our deep admiration for the great sacrifices so gladly borne by those airborne troops who, as my right hon. Friend says, have not died in vain.
I was glad also that my right hon. Friend paid a tribute to the Maquis, whose very existence proves there was a living spirit of freedom in France. I speak with no little interest and knowledge of the Maquis, because so many of them were part and parcel of movements with which I am associated, and I am glad that my right hon. Friend has recognised that as we march through to liberation of peoples we gain new Allies who, by their depth of feeling, their hostility to the German yoke, their rediscovery of the value of freedom, are valuable Allies whom we should cherish. In France, as in other countries liberated, we have had this magnificent spectacle of new reinforcements whose strength we did not gauge but whose aid we ought to be proud to enjoy.
I am glad also that the Prime Minister referred to Britain's worthy contribution. I have felt on occasions that we were suffering from an excess of modesty. I have thought occasionally that whilst we were being generous about the part played by our Allies, we were not doing justice to the people in the Forces in our own ranks. And Britain, as my right hon. Friend has proved to the world to-day, need not be ashamed of the contribution it has made to this war. It must never be forgotten that at least we declared war. As my right hon. Friend has said, we are the only unconquered nation in the world now which declared war and that act in itself was an act which was worthy of the best traditions of a freedom-loving people.
The Prime Minister paid a very generous and well-merited tribute to the part played by the Russian people. They have suffered grievously, they have fought magnificently, they have rescued their soil from the tyrant, and they are marching into enemy territory. May their campaigns prosper and prosper quickly.
I was glad that my right hon. Friend made the reference he did to the Japanese

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war. It would be sad if it went out from this House abroad to our Dominions or to our other Allies that we are not part and parcel of this titanic world struggle. This is our war as much as it is the United States' war and, so long as that struggle continues, so long, as my right hon. Friend said, must we throw into it all that is required to give early and confident victory.
The Prime Minister this afternoon turned to the more political aspect of the war situation. With what he said about Hungary I am in hearty agreement. Hungary, since the last Great War, has not been a worthy member of the comity of nations on the European mainland. I would myself unhesitatingly follow the advice of the right hon. Gentleman with regard to Poland. There are differences of opinion, as he has admitted, between the Powers great or small. There may be action taken which some of us may regard as unfortunate. We, my right hon. Friend pointed out, are bound by special ties to Poland. When her territory was invaded there was little delay before Britain declared her willingness to stand by her side. We are forever indebted to the great part played by the Soviet Union in this struggle. We are aware of the part that she must play in the future, and if this country can in any way heal any breaches there may be, any differences of opinion that may have arisen, any misunderstandings that may have occurred, I think it is our duty to do so, and I am quite satisfied myself that in recent weeks Britain has played a great part in working for the salvation of the Polish capital.
I am glad that my right hon. Friend went to Italy. I remember that when we had liberated Sicily there was some political difference of opinion in this House as to how we should handle these problems. But let this be said: the Allies have, as time has marched on, come to take a rather more reasonable and elastic view of the situation in liberated territories, and I am glad that they have done so in Italy. I am very glad that the Prime Minister referred to the changes in the Government of that country that will have to take place after the industrial cities of the North are free, if it is to he regarded by us as really representative of the liberated people. For it is entirely true that the great strength and power of
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democracy in Italy are in the North and not in the South, and as we get nearer those large cities, you may rely upon it that an Italian Maquis will be quite as vigorous and quite as determined as the people of France have been during the process of liberation, and I hope that the Italian people at the end of this struggle will get the kind of Government they desire and as good a Government as they undoubtedly deserve.
Then the Prime Minister referred to France. I think we all felt very deeply a sense of spiritual gratification as we saw British and American troops liberating France from the terrors of the last four years. A new France is being born to-day; it is being born out of the sufferings of the last four years. There is steel in its soul now which did not exist in many quarters in France, I fear, in the years before the war. A new France is being born, and I hope that the British and other Allied Governments will do all that is in their power to give it sustenance and to give it strength. I quite appreciate what the Prime Minister has said about the present situation in France but it is desirable, in my view, as soon as possible that there should be a Government in France responsible to France, trusted by France, and honoured and recognised by the British Government and the Allies.
Of Belgium my right hon. Friend spoke in terms of great affection. We are glad that the country is being liberated, and I am especially glad that so soon after liberation the normal processes of government are beginning to function. This gets rid of any idea of requiring A.M.G.O.T. in any democratic part of Europe. The same is true of Holland. Holland, we hope, will soon be released, and we know that she will rapidly restore all the democratic institutions of which she has been so rightly proud.
Now the Prime Minister, in referring to the Dumbarton Oaks Conference, expressed a view which I hold myself for two reasons: first, that for some, period after the war, security in the world rests in the hands of the three great Powers; secondly, that it would be a great mistake to hurry too quickly in coming to final decisions. I believe that Great Britain, the United States and the Soviet Union must agree sooner or later, and my right hon. Friend in an earlier dis-

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cussion said that ideological differences were ceasing to matter—
The Prime Minister: I did not put it quite that way. I said the world was becoming less ideological, but I did not say that ideological differences did not matter. They matter a great deal, and I hope they are being adjusted in the ranks of the Allies.
Mr. Greenwood: As long as the admission is that they do exist amongst the three great Allies—
The Prime Minister: Yes.
Mr. Greenwood: It really supports the point made by the Prime Minister, which I am trying to make myself, that adjustments of these different conceptions and outlooks of life do take time. But if we can gain the good will and the assurance that for some period after the war, if aggression raises its head again, these three great Powers will take over the moral and military leadership of the world, then we shall have accomplished something, although we shall not think in terms of an elaborate League of Nations for the next five years but of those three great Powers. At the same time I do hope we shall carry with us the smaller Powers. I do not think we ought to settle this, so to speak, behind their backs. I say that because, taking all the Allies on the Continent of Europe, they are looking to this country for moral leadership. They believe in us now in a way they have never believed in us before, and it would be an act of grace at least to carry the smaller Powers with us in any military proposals that are made by the great Powers.
My right hon. Friend referred to the importance of shortening the war, and explained that many decisions cannot be taken now. I think that is true but, on the other hand, the nearer we get to the end of the war the more insistent will many vital problems become—international economic problems, policies which are vital if we are to achieve the objectives which we have placed before ourselves, and which have been accepted by the vast majority of mankind. Full employment still remains a phrase. We have had a document about it but unless now we begin to increase the tempo of discussions and arrive at decisions on these great inter-
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national economic issues which affect all countries large or small, I am afraid that we may land ourselves in a very difficult time when the war is over.
I would myself say that one way to help to shorten the war is by giving those who are engaged in it increasing hope and greater faith in the future than they possess at the present time. There could be no better way of improving the morale, not only of our own troops but troops everywhere, than the knowledge that when they came back the real things for which they had fought were to be granted unto them. That would be so in connection with questions concerning the home front. We have been suffering from something like a tornado of White Papers recently—I think we have had three in about a week—but it is becoming increasingly important that there should be more action now on decisions with regard to the home front. We have these documents before us; I am aware of the enormous amount of time which must have been spent on them and the great amount of discussion that must lie behind the written word. That I fully appreciate. I can also appreciate the difficulty of translating the White Paper on Social Security into a Bill of five Clauses. I sympathise with whoever has to handle that particular job, but the problem may become urgent and, just as we have speeded up war production in the last two or three years, so, now, we must speed up the preparation of machinery to deal with the problems that we have to face after the war.
I am very apprehensive myself about the housing situation and its future in the next five years. I am also very apprehensive about the operation of plans for the transfer of plants from war to peace production. Something may have been worked out, but we know little about it. Once we begin altering the nature of production in this country we are entitled to know what are the steps to be taken to ensure full employment for all. I put these considerations forward because they are bound up with the stage of the war we have now reached. People who talked about the future two or three years ago were voices crying in the wilderness but it is now conceded that victory is ours, even although we cannot put the date on it, and it would be a sad misfortune, a tragedy and a crime, if, the war having been won, the subsequent peace were lost.
3.5 P.m.
Captain Alan Graham: I am sure all of us feel bound to express the highest sense of gratitude to the Prime Minister for having carried out that supreme direction of the war in a manner which has brought us to the very threshold of victory, and also to the heroic efforts of our own brave troops, and those of all the United Nations, without whose achievements we could have had no hope and no future. The forces of evil, embattled in war, have been already completely defeated. They can never in warlike might raise themselves to be a real menace again, but it does seem that we have to be on our guard against similar forces of evil raising their heads in peacetime. It is against those that it will be even harder to achieve permanent peace. In the settlement of Europe that will follow our victory it is essential that we should see that in the future might does not prevail over right, and that the prosperity of a nation should not cause its neighbours jealousy, or fear of aggression. In other words, it is essential that we should develop in Europe a community spirit among the nations of Europe. I fear it will be generations before either in Germany or in Bulgaria it will be possible for any such sense of a European community spirit to arise, but if only we give a firm lead in that direction to the rest of Europe I think we can have far greater confidence that there we may see it flourish.
It is in that spirit that we should approach the Russian-Polish problem. Both these heroic nations are Allies of ours, and both of them are publicly pledged, as we are, to recognition of the rights of small nations to independence and genuine self-government. But it all depends on us British. We cannot abdicate from our position as defenders of European civilisation; it depends on us to see that it is in that spirit of the European community that the Russian-Polish problem should be solved, since there can be no possible future peace for Europe if genuine Polish independence were to be crushed, directly or indirectly, by Russia. Russia's best security against any future aggression from Germany or the West is a friendly and independent Poland. Marshal Stalin himself has declared that he wishes for such a Poland, and it is devoutly to be trusted that those who carry out his policy will carry that into
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effect. Such a friendly Poland Russia can have for the asking if only she will abstain from interfering in internal Polish politics, and if she will not override the national feeling of all true Poles by imposing upon them the authority of, and lending Russian power to, the completely unrepresentative Council of National Liberation sitting in Lublin. Surely the martyred, heroic citizens of Warsaw have earned the gratitude and respect of all their Allies for their epic struggle in the last few months against the Germans. Have not such heroes earned the right, above all men, to be masters of their own destiny? What would the world think of Russia if, after the entry of Russian troops into Warsaw, such heroes as the defenders of that city were placed in concentration camps or deported to Kaluga or Siberia?
Russia now has the greatest chance she has ever had of solving this Polish question and of assuring herself for all time of Polish friendship by helping the Poles to rid themselves of their only real enemies—the Germans—and also by themselves abstaining from interference in Polishinternal politics. Ninety-nine per cent. of the Poles in this country and in Poland know that Russian friendship is indispensable to their own security, and the Poles are prepared to work for that end. But in return Russia must leave the Poles free to manage their own future. While His Majesty's Government deserve the thanks of the whole world for their unremitting efforts to try and resolve this problem I think we all must be on our guard against offending the Polish nation in Poland by appearing to pick and choose one Polish politician rather than another. If fate says that Poland is to dig her political grave let her by all means dig it herself, but let it never be said that we put our arm behind the spade. Let her also show her own capacity of achieving agreement with Russia. We cannot, however, escape our duty, as a Western Christian nation, of standing up resolutely for the ideals for which we have fought. Among those ideals is the right of a small nation to continue her own existence, just as in a democracy we stand for the rights of every individual, however humble or however small.
Finally, I would say with what eagerness we watch for the recovery of the strength of France. The future settlement of Europe needs both the experience and

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intellectual light of France, and we sincerely hope that she will be given her just share in deciding its future and especially in shaping the future of the Rhine frontier. But here again, as in Italy, it is not so much political aim or political direction as rather economic restoration which is so necessary. It is poverty and hunger which breed revolution and dictatorships. Sound politics and true liberty can only come out of settled economic conditions. It is, therefore, to the economic restoration rather than the intimate political direction of Europe to which, in my view, our best efforts should. be concentrated.
3.14 P.m.
Mr. Mander: I cannot help thinking that the Prime Minister gave some very wise advice to the House as to the spirit in which Members should approach some of the difficult questions facing us at the present time. First, I would like to say a word or two about Poland. I am convinced that the Government are doing everything they possibly can to resolve this difficult problem and bring the three great Allies into greater unity. The situation has undoubtedly improved, and there seems to be a real prospect, on the lines the Prime Minister suggested, that agreement may be reached. I think the wisest course, so far as Poland is concerned, is to trust in the wise, patient, far-seeing and statesmanlike attitude of the Polish Prime Minister, M. Mikolajczyk, to trust his cooperation with the three great Allies to bring to fruition the efforts that are being made to solve the Polish problem.
It is not disputed that unconditional surrender is the policy we desire to see imposed on our enemies, but I think there is a feeling that the moment might come when it would be desirable to make a declaration to our enemies in order to counteract Goebbels' propaganda, and to give some indication as to what the situation might be after the unconditional surrender. It should be made clear that it does not mean massacre or sterilisation, or anything of that kind, and I hope the Government, when the right moment comes, will not fail to take the opportunity of reassuring the German people and counteracting some of the extreme propaganda that is being put forward on that subject.
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May I say this word about Italy and ask whoever is going to reply to deal with the point? I rather regretted that the declaration made the other day by Great Britain and the United States was not shared in by the Russian Government. Could we have some explanation as to why that was the case? Obviously it is desirable on every occasion when important statements of policy are made that the three great Powers should share in them and I think it was a regrettable fact that Russia was omitted on this occasion. I hope that any policy that is decided about Italy will not mean that we shall go back on our pledge to deprive her of her overseas possessions. A pledge has been given to that effect and I think it should be adhered to. I hope one of the results of adjustments which may be made in Italy will be that Ethiopia will have free access to the sea.
Mr. Ivor Thomas: When was this pledge given?
Mr. Mander: It was given me on two occasions in reply to questions.
The Prime Minister dealt in a general way with the policy of Dumbarton Oaks. I think the kind of structure that it will be attempted to set up is quite clear. It follows a well known model, though greatly strengthened and improved, and we hope that, while the trusteeship must rest with the three great Powers for some period to come, France may be brought in at the earliest practical moment and that the smaller Powers may be given an opportunity in due course of playing their role alongside the great Powers who, possessing massive strength, must act as the policemen of the world for operative purposes. I know that there have been discussions as to what may be the most effective method of enabling the three great Powers to co-operate but I feel that no technical arrangement, no formula, can be of any value in making the three Powers co-operate unless there is the spirit of good will and determination amongst them to do so. The whole future of the world depends on that co-operation. If it fails, we shall have a third world war. That is the fundamental fact of the whole position of foreign affairs. We have to arrange in future that right shall be robed with might and that the policemen of the United Nations shall have ready in their hands, to use at any moment, a suitable

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weapon to deal with any aggressor. I am somewhat disturbed to notice that a society in this country—I have in mind one particular peace society—which is getting up a petition on the subject of foreign affairs makes no reference whatever to the use of force. If we are going to approach our post-war problems on the basis of leaving out any reference to force, we are building on a very unsound foundation. I hope that all who have influence with bodies of this kind will see that their policy is more realistic and is brought into line with the necessities of the world. The question is raised as to whether there shall be a hard or a soft peace. We ought to have a firm peace. I think that is the word to use. The German nation cannot escape their responsibility for what has been going on for the last five years. It is said that there are good Germans. I daresay there are, but where are they? They never seem to be in evidence. They never seem to do anything about it. They never seem to be willing to co-operate with the good people in other countries.
Miss Rathbone: How long does the hon. Member think would be the life of a German who under present conditions got up and protested and showed himself a good German?
Mr. Mander: I think the best answer I can give to that is what I was going to say, that the real difference between German and British is shown by this test. If you asked a British soldier to carry out some of the tasks that the Germans have willingly carried out, such as torture or murdering women and children, they would mutiny rather than do it. The Germans are perfectly willing to do these dastardly deeds. That is the difference between the German and the British soldier. We have to take care that in future Germany does not possess "the means to do ill deeds." I would lay it down—I hope this is the Government policy—that there shall never again be a German Army, a German Navy or a German Air Force. No doubt in due course their citizens may find their place in an international force which may be set up for the purpose of world security. That is their outlet in that direction. They should have no national forces. You may have an international force directly recruited, or perhaps a more immediate step
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is that each nation should set apart from its national forces certain elements which are earmarked to be used in co-operation for world purposes. German scientific research must be very strictly controlled and there should never be permitted again independent civil aviation in Germany. Of course, there must be civil aviation in Germany, but it should play its part to my mind in a generalised form in something covering Europe as a whole. If we were to allow them to build up a civil aviation of their own, they would certainly use it for the preparation of further attacks on their neighbours.
I read with some alarm in the Press suggestions about fraternisation between the Allies as they go into Germany and the German people. It is a very natural thing. The Germans are very well versed in methods of that kind. They know how kindly and sympathetic the British people are, how they very readily forget and forgive, and there are great dangers that, if we are not careful, great harm may be done in the way of building up in Germany the potentiality for a further war in the future. The situation is much worse than in 1918. You have this generation, 13 years of Hitler youth built up, educated to believe that the worst things in the world are the best, and it is going to take a very long time to get rid of that. That is the obvious danger, but there are other Germans who will come along with their smiles saying in a friendly spirit, "After all, we are relations. Let us be good friends." They tried that before the war with some success with Members of this House who were taken in and with others who were not. We remember the Link and the Anglo-German fellowship, which was nothing but a weapon of German propaganda and has now been exposed to the world. If they are given the opportunity they will do exactly the same kind of thing again.
Mr. McGovern: Is it not true that the leader of the Liberal Party, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), met Hitler and fraternised with him, and that many Liberal leaders have stayed in German homes fraternising with German capitalists in the past?
Mr. Mander: The leader of the Liberal Party is the Secretary of State for Air. I believe Germany has a great contribution to make to the future of the world but

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tier talents are wrongly directed at present. That is the trouble. She must receive the order to change direction and be reeducated. In the process of evolution great changes have taken place. We have advanced from the amoeba to man and in the course of evolution it may well be that we can make Germany a civilised nation. It may be thought that I am expressing to some extent harsh sentiments towards Germany but I am Thinking of the victims who have lived through five years of torture, torn from their homes and ill-treated in every possible way. They are the people who, we want to make sure, shall have a chance of breathing the air of freedom till in the course of time that shall be the lot of men and women the wide world over.
3.26 p.m.
Mr. Burgin: The Prime Minister had a very broad canvas to-day and on it was able to paint a picture which met with the general approval of the House. I want to pay to the Prime Minister, and through him to those behind him, a tribute for the gradual unfolding of the major plan of the strategy of the war. Very naturally we, as a nation of sea-going people, specialise in the Navy. We have had the lead in the air for years and at the end of the last war we possessed the most formidable Air Force in the world. The research work connected with the mastery of the air was, fortunately, continued and at the outbreak of this war there were two features of the Air Force which were very importantgthe immense development in fighter strategy and the decision to build the large bomber. The Army had never been intended to fight on a large scale in a Continental war. It had been intended very largely as a garrison force for outlying portions of the Empire with a necessary home element for defence and with a cadre which could be enlarged rapidly in the event of trouble. At no time has Great Britain, either by word or by treaty, promised so to enlarge her military Forces that she could be a Continental land Power.
At the outbreak of the war Great Britain, supreme in her Navy, with a fair defence Air Force and with a small highly trained Army, found herself physically incapable at any point of reaching the anatomy of the enemy. When war
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was declared as the result of Hitler's army invading Poland it was found physically impossible for the Navy, separated by the Kiel Canal, to reach Poland, it was found impossible for the fighter or bomber Air Force to reach Poland, and there was obviously no method by which a land Army could come directly to Poland's aid. The difficulty was geographical; it was the difficulty of a physical contact with the anatomy of the enemy at any point of the compass. The way in which the situation from September, 1939, to September, 1944, has altered is so dramatic that we now find Germany a beleaguered nation, with the Allies at or over her frontier at many parts, both East and West; we find her air completely dominated by the Allied Air Forces; and we find the Navy able to watch her ports and coasts. In other words, the Allies can bring their military power to bear upon the anatomy of the enemy at almost every point of the compass.
What I am at pains to call to the attention of the House is that that swing over from the impossibility of attacking Germany at any point to the possibility of attacking Germany at every point is not an accident, but is part and parcel of a general military strategic plan. I think it is time that tribute was paid in this House and by this House to the leaders of the countries and to those, named and unnamed, who are responsible for that master strategic plan. It was quite natural that, knowing the superiority of Britain in the Navy, Germany's No. 1 arm should in their opinion be the U-boat, a method of paralysing, neutralising and attacking the Navy. I think it will always be impossible adequately to state in narrative form, to use the Prime Minister's words, what the world owes to the combination of brain, mind, hand and body that has brought about the defeat of the U-boat, for it was said in the olden days that he who controls the seas can force his enemies to battle where he likes. It is literally true to say that the mastery of the seas was responsible, under the working out of a master plan, for the communication of the tanks via the Cape of Good Hape to the ports in Egypt, which resulted in the defence at El Alamein and the attack from El Alamein. It was mastery of the seas and the working out of a strategic

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plan which determined the landing in North Africa and the securing of at least one side of the Mediterranean, thus preserving Malta and preserving Egypt and making a jumping-off ground to the whole of the under-belly of the Axis. It was a combination of the sea power and the working out of a master plan.
Then, when we came to D Day it was quite obviously the mastery of the seas which enabled the 250,000 men to be landed within the first 24 hours and the 1,000,000 men within the first 20 days, to which remarkable achievements the Prime Minister has called attention to-day. I understand from those who took part in the landing that on the day following. D plus 1, merely by the hazards of the sea, there was a greater loss in landing craft in one period of a few hours through the rigours of the weather than ever was brought about by shelling from the enemy. I think it is pretty clear to all who take the trouble to read that if we had not been a nation of sea-going folk, D Day would have been impossible even with the mastery of the sea which the surface vessels of the Navy had already secured. I want to point out that the gradual unfolding of a plan, whereby the immense advantage of the mastery of the seas was secured and turned to offensive account, has developed; that the way in which the Air Force has been cumulatively strengthened so that it has been able to secure bases nearer and nearer to enemy territory, and by greater and greater engines and lifting power been enabled more extensively to overcome distance and bring its fighting power to bear upon the enemy; and that the way in which, through mastery of the seas and through mastery of the air, the landing Forces of the Allies have been successively landed, are all part and parcel, as I can see it, of a master strategic plan.
I go so far as to say that it would have been a mistake for that plan to have been hurried, and I say that its gradual unfolding and its gradual development have possessed enormous plus advantages for the Allies that were not always apparent to those of us who were waiting for the opening of some other front to counterbalance the Russian front. I think it will be found as time goes on and we look into the matter that the increased training of the American Forces, the battle experience gained in the Pacific, in their
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training camps and in their long period of training in our own country, culminated in the force that landed in France on D Day being immensely more powerful than a force that might have been landed in the autumn or summer of the year before.
I venture to say in simple words that I think thanks are due to those who conceived the master plan involving El Alamein, involving the North of Africa, involving the sustenance to Russia via the North Cape, and ultimately culminating in the experiment at Dieppe and the real thing on D Day—thanks to those who conceived it and to the Prime Minister and his personal friendship with the President of the United States and Marshal Stalin of Russia for the way in which all these plans were able to be worked out. A special word of thanks should be given to those people who managed to maintain complete secrecy as these plans developed. I think it will be found later on to be little short of miraculous that these plans for D Day—worked out, if plans ever were, down to the last gaiter button—were maintained in and surrounded by all the necessary attributes of secrecy in such a way as to have been a complete surprise so far as the enemy was concerned.
The House will have heard with tremendous interest of the capture of the intercepted telephone messages between the commanders of the German garrison behind the Normandy beaches and Hitler, Rommel and other German officers at some distance away. As an old intelligence officer of the last war who had something to do with intercepting messages and turning them to the advantage of the Allied account, I know the jam that every intelligence staff officer considered it to be if he got a really good intercept. I can appreciate the feelings of those fellows who captured headquarters and found from the headquarters tele-writer messages what the local commanders had been saying to the men behind Calais and Boulogne—"Send us reinforcements to Cherbourg," and the answer, "We cannot as the Allies are about to land in Calais and Boulogne." That shows that the secrecy in regard to the landing at Cherbourg had been completely maintained and that the Germans were led to think that the landing would be at various points, so that the defence was maintained at Calais and Boulogne too long to be of the slightest service to the men in real danger behind

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the Normandy beaches. Surely a word of thanks is due to those who maintained secrecy so that that immense potential of a landing on Normandy soil—a real Norman conquest if ever there was one—could be brought about. So I say, on behalf of myself and my hon. Friends who sit with me, or sometimes sit with me, on these Benches, thanks to the Prime Minister and, through him, to those behind who conceived this master plan of strategy, who gradually unfolded it, and, by their success in keeping their secrets, brought about the entire change to which I have called attention, of making the anatomy of the enemy vulnerable at every point of the 360 degrees.
Having said "Thank you" for the unfolding of the major strategic plan, I want to say a word about the consequences that follow liberation. We learned at bitter cost how not to begin after the liberation of Italy. There is undoubtedly a feeling that military government was not maintained long enough after the liberation of part of Italy. Too soon was handing over made to the Italian regime that was not able to hold the reins and keep order. Immense losses, immense bloodshed and immense trouble were sown for ourselves by the fact that we gave up government before there was any substitution for military government. In France we adopted the other extreme. We carried on military government in collaboration with General de Gaulle and his officers until it appeared clear from reports from surrounding districts that there was somebody effective, efficient and powerful enough to whom local administration could be handed over.
I am one of those who hope that Paris will shortly be free from being a military zone. I hope it will not always be necessary to secure permission from S.H.A.E.F. before visits to Paris on matters affecting post-war relations between France and Great Britain can be made. I hope that, inasmuch as civil administration is handed over to a French authority, to a French Government and to a French Parliament, so will it be possible for the control of visits to France, the control of commercial travellers and the control of those concerned with cultural relations between England and France, to pass back to our own passport office and Foreign
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Office and be removed from the military considerations which applied when S.H.A.E.F. was in command and Paris was a military zone. I express the hope that the measure in which local administration succeeds will be the measure in which we feel we can adopt ordinary external relations between this country and France, and no longer be obliged, cap in hand, to ask for military permission for any of our own nationals to visit that country.
What applies to Italy, and then to France, applies to Belgium, to Luxemburg and progressively to Holland, and will eventually, no doubt, apply to Norway, to Denmark, to Czechoslovakia and to the various Balkan countries as the effort succeeds. I hope that due attention is being given to the way in which the Allied Civil Government is confronting its tasks at Kornelimunster in Germany.
We must regard with interest the occasion of holding of the first Allied court on German soil to deal with infractions by German civilians of the Regulations laid down by the local commanding authorities. I hope that the people selected to take part in the conduct of Allied justice and administration in German territory will be wisely and carefully chosen. I hope some attention will be paid to a knowledge of the local language and local customs. I cannot conceive of anything which will be treated as the litmus paper of the sincerity of the Allied intentions more than the way in which their courts of administration act in the first days, weeks and months of the occupation of German soil. I beg the Government to take the greatest care in the selection of the officers in what is known as the Civil Affairs Section, to deal with the administration and order of essential services in those parts of Germany that are progressively liberated.
I have no wish to detain the House further, when large numbers of Members wish to speak. I desire to place on record that in my belief the changes in fortunes of the Allied arms are not due to any sudden, favourable turn of the wheel but are the gradual unfolding of a master-plan of strategy, carefully-thought-out and brought to bear, I believe brought to bear successively in the right quarter, and to be a matter upon which this House would tender congratulations.
Lord Dunglass: Like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Luton (Mr. Burgin) I was thrilled as the Prime Minister unfolded the tale of the prodigious feats of British arms, and like him I felt a sense of gratitude to those who had planned the higher strategy. Clearly, that has been masterly, and although it has been an international achievement I believe that to the War Cabinet here is due a great deal of the credit, and in particular to the Prime Minister, although, in his modesty, he did not claim it. If I might, by understatement, pay my tribute to him, I would say that as I listened to him I could not help feeling that he managed to combine the offices of Prime Minister and Minister of Defence quite well.
In the realm of foreign affairs there are, too, considerable successes to record. We have achieved the closest relationship with America. France has survived five terrible years and there seems a fair prospect that we shall be able to renew our friendship with her. The more I think about it the more I am convinced that, when we look to our own security in the future, a closely integrated defence policy with America and with France will be an absolutely essential element for the security of these islands. Perhaps I might follow the right hon. Member for Luton in his conception of bringing force to bear upon the anatomy of the enemy by saying that to this nucleus formed by America and France there should be added definite defence arrangements with the countries surrounding the North Sea. If there is that complete system, we shall be literally sitting on the top of a resurgent Germany and can bring the maximum of power to bear before she can do once again what she has done to us twice.
It is not with these matters that I mainly want to deal. In all this fair prospect there is one very black spot, and that is the political relationship between Russia and Poland. The Prime Minister made a particular appeal to back benchers to exercise restraint, and of course I shall try to respond; but I have had considerable experience of the Prime Minister as a back bencher. When he felt strongly upon matters he tried to exercise restraint and responsibility, and that must be my aim this afternoon. This matter between Poland and Russia cannot be left to be
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settled between the two countries without any intervention from ourselves. Not only from the wide point of view of the organisation of world peace has this matter to be looked at, for clearly it will be a test case of the relationship between a great Power and a weaker neighbour. Not only because we are the Allies of each of them, but also because, under Treaty, we have accepted not only definite legal, and moral, commitments to Poland. It is our habit to honour our treaties.
I remember very well the day when the guarantee was given to Poland by Mr. Chamberlain's Government. At that time the British Government and the Polish Government were thinking in terms of the frontiers which held the field in the summer of 1939. At that time they were unchallenged by any other Power except Germany. I was glad to hear the Prime Minister mention this point because we owe it to ourselves to make it clear that if it had not been for Russia's decision to partake in the partition of Poland this country would have fulfilled that Treaty in the spirit and in the letter; but equally we owe it to the Poles to recognise the situation as it is to-day. That situation is fundamentally changed. No one in 1939 could have foreseen those changes. No one could have foreseen that Russia, from being a potential enemy would become our Ally, nor the stupendous Russian military effort without which, I think it is admitted—so strong was Germany's strength in the field revealed to be—that Poland might never have been freed. No one could have foreseen that Russia, after her prodigious feat of arms, would determine to annex Polish territory in order to put the best possible strategic frontier between herself and the German people. Those things were not seen at that time. The question for this House, which has a real responsibility in the matter, is: Can we, in these new circumstances, fulfil our guarantee to Poland?
We must be absolutely frank and state the position as we see it to-day. To the Poles, I take it we should have to say that we cannot hope to restore the old Poland, and that our aim now must be to restore a Poland independent and free, and as nearly equivalent as possible in territory, economic resources and in international status to the Poland of 1939. If that is our intention and aim, the question inevitably follows whether in view of the

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Russian attitude, we can make that independence and that freedom into a reality. If, after the defeat of Germany, this gallant but unhappy people are still left in bondage, and if this country has failed to do anything that we ought to have done or might have done, then our national conscience will be uneasy for generations.
I believe we can succeed in this matter, but that success will elude us unless we realise two things. The first is that Russia operates under a code of ethics which is by no means the same as our own. For that I am not blaming the Russians. They are at a different point on the historical road. Let me give examples. When the British Government say, "We will promise to restore an independent and free Poland," they mean it in the unqualified sense of the words; but when Marshal Stalin says, "We will restore your independence and freedom," he says, in the name of the Russian Government, to Poland, "Yes, you may have your independence but Russia will dictate your frontiers, and you may have your freedom but Russia will choose your Government and, by implication, will control your policy." Those are two different interpretations and we must face them. Unless we face the fact that, at the present moment, this country and Russia operate under two different sets of standards, there will stretch before us a long vista of political difficulties, misunderstandings and disillusion.
The second thing which I think we have to realise in our political negotiations with. Russia is that we must not shirk plain speaking. To that and that alone will the Russians respond. If a criticism lies against His Majesty's Government—and I do not know that it does—I believe it is that they have used a sense of delicacy in negotiation which simply is not understood by a people whose diplomatic methods are, by comparison, crude and direct. May I give an illustration or two? I am afraid that while attempting to use restraint I shall have to pose a dilemma to the Foreign Secretary. I hope we shall get an answer from him tomorrow, although the matter is of some difficulty. Let me take the House back to Teheran. Months before the Prime Minister, President Roosevelt and Stalin met at Teheran, Russo-Polish relations had been in a state of acute tension. An
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expectant world, after the Conference, received an impression of harmony. "We are friends," said the communiqué, "in fact, in spirit and in purpose," and the reaction of the world to those words was not that this was an effervescent friendship such as naturally follows after good wine and good dinners, but was something more permanent.
What was Marshal Stalin's reaction? He went home, and within a few weeks there followed an ultimatum to Poland demanding territory, and declaring that this could not be, except for a few details, a matter of negotiation. It seems to me that this action is capable of only two interpretations; either Russia's reading of the Atlantic Charter is fundamentally different from our own, or Russia feels herself strong enough, when it suits her own purpose, to go her own way. [Interruption.] I am putting those two possible interpretations and I cannot see any other. Did the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary tell Marshal Stalin at Teheran that this question of the method of conduct of relationships between Russia and Poland would be looked upon as a test case in this country, or did they not? If they did not, then the mistake can be rectified. If they did, and in spite of it Marshal Stalin went his own way, it is time that this House knew about it in order that we might assess the implication.
Dr. Haden Guest: Will the Noble Lord deal also with the situation created by the Polish invasion of Soviet Russia in 1920—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh"]—which has a great deal to do with frontiers, and also with the Nazi reorientation of Poland in 1936?
Lord Dunglass: I will deal with those matters. Russia had a Treaty with Poland, which recognised the status quo as it was in 1939, but apart from that, I was arguing, not on the grounds of this or that frontier between Russia and Poland, but on the ground of the Atlantic Charter, which postulates the principle that questions of frontier should be settled by negotiation and not by force. One other illustration—and I shall cut these short because it is touchy ground. Many months ago, in the winter of last year, notice was given in the Moscow State-controlled Press, of the formation of a Union of Polish Patriots, a Committee of Poles to look after Polish interests,

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and it was perfectly clear at that time to anyone who understood the Russian technique that this was the first move towards undermining the authority of the Polish Government in London. Many weeks passed before the Foreign Secretary in this House perfectly rightly reiterated our support of the Polish Government. From that time on the Soviet Government have known that both ourselves and the Americans recognise the Polish Government in London but have refused to listen to our representations. Somewhere the machinery of co-operation has gone wrong.
Let me take this latest case. I am thinking of the support given to the Poles in Warsaw. We do not know the facts, but I think it is worth noting that very little account was taken by the Russian Government of the representations made in private, and it was only when public clamour reached such a stage in this country and America that it could not be stifled, that the Russians began to take notice and send in supplies. This is the dilemma which seems to me, all through this series of events, to face us. Either these incidents are a series of rebuffs from one great Ally to another, or there is genuine misunderstanding. I am willing to believe that, but if that is so it indicates something wrong with the machinery of co-operation which must be put right at once.
So that there will no longer be any doubt, I have a suggestion to make that we should make an immediate and definite approach to the Russian Government on this question of Anglo-Polish-Russian relations, and do it in this way: We should declare to the Russian Government that Great Britain has legal and moral commitments to post-war Poland, to secure for her independence and freedom, and that we expect Russian co-operation to make them a reality. Secondly, that we justify this expectation by invoking the three Agreements to which Great Britain and the Soviet Union have jointly put their signatures. First. the Atlantic Charter, the first three points of which cover exactly just such a case as this, and which upholds the principle of negotiation as against the principle of force. Secondly, there is the Moscow Agreement, by which the Soviet Government and ourselves both agreed to co-operate and consult at every stage in just this sort of political dispute. And,
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lastly, and more particularly, I would invoke the 20 years' Treaty of Agreement between the Soviet Government and ourselves which was signed in 1942. In the preamble of that Agreement, the principles of the Atlantic Charter are repeated. But may I read to the House some operative words of Article 5? After the first paragraph, in which the two Powers agree to work closely together, it reads as follows:
"They (that is, the High Contracting Parties) will take into account the interests of the United Nations in these objects, and they will act in accordance with the two principles of not seeking territorial aggrandisement for themselves and of non-interference in the internal affairs of other States."
That is a definite Clause in a definite Treaty, a Treaty by which we in this country set great store. We hope to make it the foundation of permanently good Anglo-Russian relations, but we shall never make it into a permanent instrument of good relations if either side connives at what it considers to be a breach by another. It is much better for us to call the attention of the Russian Government to this, and say where we think they are going wrong. Only on the basis of that kind of plain speaking can we possibly achieve these good relations.
In this country there is a great store of good will towards Russia, but I think we serve our friendship best by a plain warning now, that in her attitude towards her smaller neighbours she is doing much to forfeit and sacrifice the good will which her heroism has won. For myself, I have never looked upon the Anglo-American-Soviet association as a kind of moral rearmament society. It is a military alliance, and as such it is highly successful, but if these three great Powers wish to go further than that, if they wish to offer themselves to humanity as the founder Powers of a wider world organisation for peace, if, in addition to their undoubted ability to dispense power, they also seek to dispense justice, then there is an obligation upon each and upon all to agree, at least, upon a common interpretation of independence and freedom.
4.7 P.m.
Mr. McGovern: I desire to congratulate the Noble Lord on the speech he has made and for having stated sincerely and logically what he thinks should be done in present circumstances. I do not intend to pursue the

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arguments he has used in relation to this problem. All I would say is that I agree with him that Russia has a tremendous amount of good feeling in this country, which is just in the balance at this moment, and it will depend largely upon her attitude to her small neighbouring States whether that good feeling is to be "cashed in on" by the Soviet in an amiable form, or turned to hatred of a great Power's effort against smaller countries. In relation to Poland, we must remember that while it is fair to say, as the Noble Lord did, that Poland might never have been freed if it had not been for the military effort of Russia, it is also true to a large extent, that if it had not been for Russia and her pact with Germany, the whole Continent might never have been placed completely under the heel of Germany, and France might not have collapsed as she did in the military field. Therefore, without any recriminations, I should say that from the lessons to be learned from this war and the benefits to be obtained for humanity, Russia could build up in this world a tremendous amount of good will if she would restrain herself in her attitude towards those Powers on her own frontiers.
While I have appeared from time to time as being very antagonistic to the Soviet Union, I say that I am not antagonistic to the Soviet Union, to the Russian people, but I am antagonistic to the methods that are being thrown up by the bureaucracy of Russia. I wish it were otherwise. I would never attempt to dictate to Russia the line she should take in her own country, but I do say she must allow the rest of the world to determine, according to public feeling, education and reason, the developments they aspire to in their own logical manner. Therefore, I trust that this problem is capable of solution, although I have all the doubts in the world in relation to it, not from a superficial knowledge of Stalin but from a lifetime of experience. I would like to see it possible but just because of the methods in the working class movement of this country of those who espouse the cause of Russia I find they have a similar type of mind to that shown by the development going on in Russia to-day. Therefore, it is with regret, because I cannot see unity of pur
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pose in the working class movement with those forces which have a common objective, that I cannot see those forces pursuing different tactics as between Russia and this country. That was the cause of the estrangement between Lenin and Trotsky in the old days. Trotsky believed that if any change were effected in any country by force, the revolution must come from the bottom, and must be the desire of the people for social change. That, later, under the government of Stalin, was changed for government in accordance with the wishes of the top, and with blood baths. Freedom had to be exterminated with the physical extermination of those who opposed the regime. Seeing that, although I have no desire to dictate what line Russia should pursue in her own country, I thank God that I was born and live in Britain, rather than that I should have to live under conditions of that kind in any other country.
I turn now to the speech made by the hon. Member of the Liberal Party who represents Wolverhampton East (Mr. Mander). I think he is absent now. I congratulate him on having one day with the boys now and again, in opposition to the Government. He must have a hard time trying to convince Wolverhampton that, while he is pursuing the path of unity with the Government on the front, or behind the front, of the Governmental Benches, he returns to the Opposition Bench now and again and gives us the benefit of his advice and criticism. I noticed that to-day all the points he raised, he already knew about both from the Prime Minister's speech and from the general line in the Press. They were all in hearty agreement with Governmental policy. Therefore, he could express his opinions safely. He knew he need not cross swords in any way with his chief, the Secretary of State for Air, who is the Liberal representative in this great wide Coalition we have at the present time.
We have had thoughts and opinions from him which I think were shocking coming from any Member of this House. He went almost to the length of telling us that there was no such thing in Germany as a decent German. That is heard often. I want to ask Members of this House if they sincerely believe that. The Prime Minister told us to-day of the difficulties minorities have in arming them-

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selves, or opposing a Government, and he spoke of all the difficulties, even in France, which had never known under its own authority the terror and brutality imposed by the Gestapo and the Nazis. He spoke of the Maquis in the final onslaught, raising themselves from the underground and taking part in the open struggle. Therefore, I ask Members of this House whether they agree there are no good Germans. I know of at least one person whom I can claim to be a good example. Prince Bernhard, the husband of Princess Juliana of Holland, must be a good German [An HON. MEMBER: "He is a Dutchman"]. He is not a Dutchman. He has not been nationalised but naturalised. He is a German by origin and has moved about as a German through the world.
There are many groups, races, and classes of people in Germany. There are something like 23,000,000 Catholics in Germany. [Interruption.] It was put to me that officially there were only 16,000,000 recognised as being adherents, and that 10,000,000 had gone out by the backdoor, or the sidedoor. Does anybody say that among those 16,000,000 or 23,000,000 Catholics there are no good Germans? I met two of Pastor Niemoller's clergymen when I was in Berlin, and discussed things with them. Does anybody say that there are no good Protestants in Germany? Does anybody say that there are no good Communists in Germany? Do the Labour Party say that there are no good trade unionists and good Socialists, who are still compelled to hide their colours because of the Gestapo? Does anybody say that there are no good Jews in Germany? I met a considerable number of them, and I went to where they were actually practising colonisation, in the hope that they would get something from this country. It is a libel to say that there are no good Germans.
I said once that time would prove that all the theories of the Germans not being behind Hitler were quite wrong, and that there were 13,500,000 of the youth of Germany who were the real backbone of the Nazi movement; and I said, on the other hand, that there was a great contempt in Italy for Mussolini, and a crying demand behind the scenes in Italy from a large class of people of liberal professions, to have a Liberal democracy, of the type we had in this country. Time has proven
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both those theories to be correct. I said that large numbers of the Hitler Youth Movement were behind Hitler, but, against that, large numbers of people of mature age were looking upon the advance of war as a dreadful prospect and that they shuddered at what would be the result. Just as there are good Italians in Italy today, who loathe the thought of Mussolini, with all his amorous conquests in Italy, and who loathe the character of the man, so also was there an enthusiastic Hitler Youth Movement in Germany, because The other dictator had a personal character that was always cited as being good. History and time have proven that this country and America are prepared to accept every single State that has gone out of the war, and that they have found a section of the community whom they are prepared to entrust with either the administration or the running of the State. But the amazing thing is that the people who have been selected have always been those most closely identified with the Nazi and Fascist regimes in the past. Therefore we have little confidence in these people and their future purposes.
I also said, in a speech that I made in December, 1940, in moving an Amendment to the King's Speech, that, although I was opposed to the war, when you went into the war you should fight not only with the military weapon but with the psychological weapon. In my estimation, the psychological weapon has always been completely absent in this war. There has never been an appeal to the German people to get rid of their Nazi taskmasters, and they have never been told that after that you would be prepared to deal with the German people, to help them to set their house in order and to live decently with the rest of the world. You have gone along this road declaring that nothing but unconditional surrender and almost the persecution of the whole of the German people must occur as the result of the surrender that must take place at the end of the war. Remember the state of mind in this country at the period of Dunkirk. Even opponents of the war, like myself, would never have suggested at that stage that you should have met and discussed terms with Hitler, because it would have been only on the basis of complete surrender. You had no real power to bargain with at that moment. Therefore, I can conceive almost of Ger-

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mans in the German concentration camps volunteering for service to-day because of the attitude of this country and America. If we were faced with the prospect of prolonged overlordship of the German leaders in this country, every individual in this country would be roused to fury and would be prepared to fight to the last drop of blood to maintain his existence. Therefore I charge the Governments of the United States and of this country with being responsible, by their talk of unconditional surrender, for the prolongation of this war and for causing unnecessary suffering and blood-spilling. The policy should be reversed at the earliest possible moment in relation to the great mass of the German people. Not only that, but it gives Hitler ammunition at a period when he is in dire distress. I was shocked at the publication of that Morgenthau document in the United States and at the speeches that were made in another place by Lord Vansittart.
Earl Winterton: On a point of Order. Is it not a Rule of this House that there can be no reference to or criticism of speeches made in another place?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): I am not clear that the hon. Member has done so.
Mr. McGovern: I was referring to speeches made by Lord Vansittart in another place. I think they are diabolical.
Earl Winterton: On a point of Order. May I call attention to the fact that the hon. Gentleman has, on a second occasion, broken that Rule of the House?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It is certainly against the Rules of the House to refer to speeches made in another place. I hope that the hon. Member will withdraw.
Mr. McGovern: In withdrawing that, may I call attention to speeches made by Lord Vansittart in this country, and published in pamphlet form, and may I say that people like him are simply a menace to the people of this country and of the United States? I think it is diabolical that such speeches should be made in the pursuance of—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I must point out that the hon. Member is not entitled, even by inference, to reflect upon a Member of the other House.
Mr. McGovern: I will leave that then, and deal with the other gentleman.
Mr. Stephen: Surely a Member of this House is entitled to criticise the views of anyone, a noble Lord or anybody else, as long as he is not ascribing unworthy motives?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I gathered that the hon. Member was using rather strong language, which might be thought to ascribe unworthy motives to a noble Lord. The hon. Member has come very near to breaking the Rule.
Mr. McGovern: Lord Vansittart might be a very estimable individual. I was dealing only with the opinions expressed by him outside this House. Surely there is no harm in saying that the Prime Minister or anybody else has expressed views which I consider to be diabolical?
Earl Winterton: May we have a Ruling on this? I frankly confess, Sir, that I do not understand your Ruling. I have understood always that it was against the Rule to refer to or criticise speeches made in another place. The hon. Member has done that, and you said that he came rather near to breaking that Rule. He has just described a speech as diabolical. Is that or is it not a reflection on the Noble Lord?
Mr. Bowles: Is it out of Order to refer to a speech by a Noble Lord and pour glory on that speech, or is it only out of Order to reflect on such a speech?
Sir Percy Harris: Is it not the right interpretation of the Ruling, that one must not refer to the speech of a Noble Lord is another place, but that it is in Order to refer to any of a Peer's statements made in the country? Peers are no more exempt from criticism than Private Members of this House, or even Ministers.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is quite true, but criticism of speeches is one thing, and a personal and unworthy reflection on the individual another.
Mr. Bowles: Can we reflect worthily on him?
Mr. McGovern: I am not suggesting anything against the Noble Lord's character, such as that he had run away with somebody else's wife. That would be another matter.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The word "diabolical" may have many meanings, according to the context. I thought that the expression as used by the hon. Member was rather strong, and probably un-Parliamentary.
Earl Winterton: Is it, in future, to be ruled that if I describe the conduct of a Member of this House as being diabolical, it may have either of two different meanings?
Mr. McGovern: It is fantastic for anybody to suggest that I was imputing some unworthy motive to a Noble Lord. I say that the propaganda, not the individual, is unworthy, and that it is not contributing to a proper solution of the world's difficulties. The propaganda that is taking place in this country is, in my estimation, all wrong. I am staggered at the fact that the Prime Minister and the Government, if they can swallow Umberto, if they can swallow Badoglio, if they can swallow Darlan, and if they can swallow Franco, should see any difference between those people and some of the others in Germany. I am told that we must never talk with or have any association with the Germans; but I wonder with whom we are going to negotiate in Germany? Is there to be anybody left? Is it intended that there should be a complete occupation of Germany, with all local and national life of the population set aside, because that policy would not be endorsed by the people of this country or America? There must be some element in Germany with which this country intends to have discussion, some element which will try, in the pursuance of their ordinary duties, to maintain civil administration. Therefore it is wrong to go on talking in terms of there being no one inside Germany, with whom we can talk, and that we shall have to re-educate the German people. There are millions of people in this country who themselves want to be re-educated. I have never attempted to suggest that we should take on that task. I think that time and environment will play their part in making an effective foundation.
I see that a military man has been saying that, after the last war the settlement
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which we imposed on Germany produced mass unemployment, and the mass unemployment produced Hitler, and Hitler produced the conditions to bring about the rehabilitation of Germany and war. He says, "Are we going to produce the same process again?" Then we are told that we have to see that Germany has no means of making war and that she is to have no flying fields, unless under supervision, no army, no navy—[Interruption]. To say that there should be no company promoters would be going too far and the war would not be worth carrying on. Therefore, there is to be no force. I ask the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, East (Mr. Mander) if that means that there will be no industries either. It has been definitely suggested in the Morgenthau plan that we should take control of the mines and give them to France, and take all the heavy industries out of the country.
I commend to hon. Members Low's cartoon in the "Evening Standard" today, showing the parting of the ways and the two roads—war on the Nazis, and war on the German people—the soldier standing there, with his rifle, wondering which road to travel and whether it is a war on the Nazis, or a war on the German people. We are now arriving at the stage where the stiffening attitude in defence of the German people will bring about a tremendous loss of life and bloodshed in the struggle into Germany, if we intend to put into effect those declarations and demands that it is intended to break up Germany and her industry, break the will of her people and put them completely under the heel of the occupation army.
I think this country had enough lessons of armies of occupation in Ireland, India, Egypt, Africa and elsewhere, to know that that policy is not a peace policy. It is not an intelligent policy, and I say here that, as we make war on want and drive want out of the world, so we shall drive war out of the world. We shall drive antagonism out of the world, because it is based, in Germany and in other countries, on the fanatical belief of individuals that the road they are pursuing and contesting with other great Powers is the road that will ensure the elimination of want in their territory. They are fanatically behind their rulers in the belief that want is being eliminated and that the older capitalist bureaucracies are standing in

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the way and preventing that from taking place.
I see some grave dangers at this moment. One of them is that Russia may pursue a policy of her own that will produce another vast armed camp between America and Britain, that will engage in war against the Soviet Union. But, if the Soviet Union intends to play ball, and co-operate with Britain and America in exploiting and holding down the rest of the Continent, the Balkans, the Baltic and Central Europe, I can see a tremendous risk of underground armies arising in these territories, resentful of the methods employed to hold them down. From a Socialist point of view, I say, further, to the Members of the Labour Party, that I want to know what an army of occupation in Germany means. Does it mean that the ordinary people in Germany are not going to be allowed to throw up a Socialist Administration if they have learned their lesson and their Nazi taskmasters and brutal overlords have been disposed of? I say as a Socialist that I object to an army of occupation. I object to the masses of the German people being saddled with this liability, in the rebuilding of Europe, for the crimes of the Nazis, who have armed themselves in the most efficient manner, with S.S. guards, Gestapo and secret service and every means of holding the mass of the people in subjection.
Everybody knows the danger that the ordinary individual runs in Germany in declaring himself against the Nazi power. Therefore, I say that if Germany is defeated militarily and disarmed, if the Nazi gangsters are put to death or dealt with in a proper manner by courts of justice throughout the land, we are entitled to say to the German people, "There are the evil men who have misled you; we are prepared to give you an opportunity of retracing your steps back to decent society." If we were prepared to proclaim that to the world now, we could have a large mass of the German people with us instead of against us, we could shorten the war, bring the tragedies of this war to an end, liberate humanity throughout the world from want and oppression and bring justice and security for all human beings. By that means we could eliminate want and war at the same time.
4.40 p.m.
Lieut.-Colonel Wickham: With some of my colleagues, I have been absent from this House and the home atmosphere for some months, so I shall not attempt to follow the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, but rather address myself to certain aspects of the war situation as seen from the other side of the world. Two days after our arrival in Sydney, the news of the invasion aroused great excitement and a surge of patriotism which it was pleasant to witness. The cinemas were filled with pictures of soldiers; unfortunately, there were no British or Canadian soldiers. They were all Americans, and for the next four days, not one single British or Canadian soldier appeared on any screen in Australia. It would seem that the Ministry of Information made some arrangements for pooling the beam service, which temporarily broke down, and meanwhile, the American Army news service transmitted pictures with their own apparatus to their headquarters in Australia, and these were flown to every city in the country and so they "scooped the pool." Like many other of their military organisations, the American military news service is highly efficient and has been conceived on an immense scale. Like a powerful broadcasting station, it blankets out its weaker neighbours. It does seem highly desirable that our news service, whether it be under the Ministry of Information or the War Office, should be strengthened and, furnished with every sort of apparatus and brought continually up to date. I say that in no spirit of petty rivalry, but in order that a truer perspective may be achieved in the presentation of events, and this seems particularly important and urgent in view of the impending general assault upon Japan when the campaign in the West has been concluded.
Speaking of news in the reverse direction, I do not know how many hon Members appreciate the great part played by Australian Forces in the land fighting in New Guinea. Maybe the news service has been better since I left and more has been available, but, certainly, it was a surprise to me when I learnt that in this bush fighting, perhaps the most arduous and exacting of any form of warfare, the proportion of Australian Forces engaged was no less than six to one. The jungles in New Guinea have to be seen to be be-

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lieved. Great forest trees growing close together are interlaced with vines and creepers, while even open country is swampy and covered with kunai grass which grows man-high, has a sharp edge, and is infested with every kind of insect, including the dreaded typhus mite. The hot and enervating climate makes conditions more forbidding than ever. This is the type of country in which they have been fighting a crafty foe endowed with fanatical courage. In spite of all and often sustaining heavy casualties, they have outstayed and out-fought the Japs again and again.
To-day, our minds are fixed on great events. Greater developments loom ahead. Yet this seems to me to be the time and place to pay tribute to the achievements, courage and endurance of these gallant men. For wherever we went in Australia our kind hosts spoke of this House in the warmest terms of affection and regard. We found the three Services in New Guinea in great heart. Their morale was magnificent and everyone seemed convinced that he had got the best billet in the whole of New Guinea, even though they were putting out pots and pans to catch the water falling from the bomb-splintered roof. Even in the hospital tents, with their open sides, the men were remarkably cheerful, though in some cases suffering from painful skin affections. One sensed a friendly informality as between doctors, nurses and patients which must have been very soothing to a sick man. I do believe we have got something to learn there. On the other hand, medical discipline and precautions were strictly enforced and loyally observed. It is very irksome in that hot climate to wear long trousers and gaiters, to button the wristbands of one's shirt sleeves, to take regular doses of atebrine, which turns you yellow as a Jap in a very short time. But the results have been remarkable. Even in fighting conditions, the incidence of malaria has been reduced from 100 per 1,000 per week to two per 1,000.
There has been very close liaison between the Forces in New Guinea and the Forces in Burma, with exchange of officers and information, and the technique of jungle fighting has been intensively studied and developed. Tanks have been used with very good effect for blasting the Japs out of their jungle fox-
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holes. We were told that a slow-moving tank with the weight as widely dispersed as possible was the most suitable, When we come to turn our full attention to the Japanese, I have no doubt that once more the Churchill tank will came to the fore and that this modern pachyderm will be seen roaming in its ancestral jungle haunts. My colleagues who visited the Australian Forces on the mainland were very much impressed by their standard of discipline and training. These men find the inaction very galling. They are straining at the leash, but the campaign in the Pacific is going so well that I have no doubt they will soon get their opportunity, and I am sure they will make the most of it.
Time did not permit us to include in our programme a visit to the American Forces, but we were able to see something of the astonishing feats of construction which they have achieved in New Guinea. In a little over three months they built at Nadzab a vast aerodrome, with permanent runways, and connected it with the base at Lae, cutting through a swampy jungle a macadamised road 33 miles long as wide as Piccadilly, with bomb bays on either side. Two years ago Milne Bay was a fishing village inhabited by 20 whites and 1,500 natives. In the month of June last it dealt with shipping tonnage only equalled by New York and one other port in the U.S.A. When the centre of gravity shifted to Finchhaven there grew up almost by magic long lines of docks and quays and miles of storage sheds. The scale of everything was breath taking. When each base has served its purpose, it is scrapped. No time is wasted in salvage unless it is going to help General McArthur's Forces to drive ahead. One cannot but compare this with one's experience in a frontier campaign many years ago when an ingenious quartermaster, in order to placate the audit department, would cut a new tent in half, and enter it in his ledger as "Tents 2, unserviceable."
In Brisbane the delegation had the privilege of meeting General MacArthur, by whose courtesy and that of the acting Prime Minister and the Minister of War in Australia our visit to New Guinea was possible. I would not presume to comment on this distinguished personality except to say that he is a wonderful

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speaker. He gave us a most interesting description of the past, and anticipation of the future course of events, and everyone in military circles swears by him. Every operation carried out under his orders has been completed, not only up to, but well ahead of, schedule. Since the Japanese have been thrust on to the defensive, the New Guinea campaign has resolved itself into a series of battles for ports and airfields. The Allied Forces attack in enormous strength. They leave nothing to chance. They seize a port, throw a perimeter around it and construct the necessary air strips, and with command of sea and air, they leave the Japanese to starve and die in the jungle, with no source of supply other than an occasional furtive visit by a submarine.
Fortunately, from the military point of view, prophylactic measures are almost entirely omitted from the Japanese medical programme while they themselves are less resistant to tropical diseases such as malaria, dysentery and so forth than men of the white races. Scores of thousands of them have perished miserably in the jungle in New Guinea and in other Pacific islands, and many thousands more will suffer the same fate as the campaign proceeds. We were told, on the highest authority, that since the beginning of hostilities in that area, apart from the sick, wounded and shell shocked, not a Japanese officer or man has surrendered, and, in a nation of 90,000,000 people, that offers a very formidable prospect. It does not look as if that campaign is one that could be concluded in a matter of months. Furthermore, one heard the view expressed out there that a straightforward invasion of the Japanese mainland might involve a million casualties—a terrible prospect for civilised people, with a proper idea of the value of human life. It seems that when we have cut off the tentacles of the octopus and drawn a ring round the body, we shall have to undertake a prolonged process of bombing and blockading before the final assault is launched.
We spent three weeks in the United States on our way out, and in Australia and New Guinea heard the view widely expressed by our Allies that there is no room in the kind of world for which we are fighting for a nation like the Japanese imbued through the centuries with a religion and philosophy of domination and
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conquest. They are determined that they shall be utterly destroyed, and I am sure that our kinsmen in Australia and New Zealand share the same view.
I would like to make a brief reference to a visit paid on our way home to the New Zealand Division in Italy, occupying a sector in the front line to the West of Florence. I was delighted to hear of the spontaneous manner in which the Italian peasantry had welcomed my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, but I cannot help recalling the experience which a distinguished officer in Italy related to me. He was travelling in a jeep with a German officer as a prisoner. As they passed through a village they received a great welcome from the villagers who threw flowers into the car and he said to the German officer, "I suppose they did the same for you." He replied "Yes, Sir, and what is more, they did it in this village, yesterday!" I had the very pleasant task of handing over to the Maori warriors a number of letters given to me by their wives and sweethearts in Rotorua scarcely ten days before, and their pleasure was only equalled by that of their gallant commander, General Freyberg. It confirmed me in my impression that, if you want to please a New Zealander, the very best thing you can do is to pay a compliment or render a service to a Maori, such is the wonderful relationship existing in that little country between the two races. There is a strong desire, with which the Maoris associate themselves whole-heartedly, that on the conclusion of hostilities the New Zealand Division should be allowed to come "home to England"—that is how they put it—for at least a month before returning to New Zealand. This magnificent Division is highly mechanised and extremely mobile and it has the reputation of being second to none in exploiting a situation. Here is another situation they are ready to exploit. I have the assurance of General Freyberg himself that he is prepared to move the whole outfit, including the nurses, under their own power from Northern Italy to Calais in four days.
This war, unlike the last, has offered very few opportunities for contacts between our kinsmen in Australia and New Zealand and the people in the Mother Country. Here is an opportunity in part to repair the omission and I hope that it will be favourably considered by the

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Governments concerned. But there is another means of repairing this omission. When the mountain could not, or would not, come to Mahomet, Mahomet went to the mountain, and ever since I arrived in Sydney I have been waiting and longing to hear the news that British Divisions are going to be seen in Australia and New Zealand en route for the Pacific area. If training be needed, the Atherton tableland offers superb locations for training in jungle warfare under healthy conditions. And what a welcome our boys would get in the great cities, and indeed wherever they went. It would be necessary to take precautions to ensure that they were not killed by kindness before ever they reached the front. My colleagues and I tried to convey to our opposite numbers, and indeed to everyone whom we met, a message of good will, but in democracies such as ours nothing can replace large scale contacts between our peoples, for it is the people who rule. The British soldier has been rightly described as Britain's best ambassador, and over there I am sure he could accomplish something which nobody else could do. Apart from military considerations I believe the presence of our splendid men down under would help us of this Empire and Commonwealth to come to the peace table and to face the tasks and problems of the future more united than ever before.
4.56 p.m.
Mr. Ivor Thomas: The House will have welcomed back very warmly the hon. Members who have visited the other end of the world and I am sure we are all grateful to have had this early account of their doings. We have followed their activities and have been apprised that they were doing a good work of ambassadorship, and it has been very interesting indeed to have this firsthand account from the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Taunton (Lieut.-Colonel Wickham). Although there will be many discussions before the plans now being formed at Dumbarton Oaks can take final shape, it is clear that what will emerge from these discussions must be a Concert of the great Powers set in the framework of a revived League of Nations, no doubt under some other name and with some modifications. It would already appear that something of that sort is inevitable. I do not think that we need
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complain about that or attack anyone for it. In present circumstances, any attempt to get the United States or the Soviet Union to abrogate their sovereignty in any sweeping measure is sure to fail and would probably do more harm than good.
Although the objective which may be obtained from Dumbarton Oaks is extremely limited, it is the most that can be obtained in the general organisation of the peace of the world at this time. I have confidence myself in the delegation we sent out there and in the ability and desire of the Government to do all they can for the general organisation of peace. It would, however, be a great mistake if we rested content with that general organisation for peace. It can achieve much. Anyone with a knowledge of history will know how much was achieved by, the Concert of Europe, and we all know—the Prime Minister has himself borne witness—what could have been done by the League of Nations if only it had been supported; but we must go further.
The particular point I would like to make is that, in addition to the general organisation for world peace, the great Powers ought to take the lead in getting closer integration within specific local areas. The United States has already taken the lead in good neighbourliness over the whole American Continent; the Soviet Union clearly intends to give a lead in integrating the whole of Eastern Europe; China will certainly give a lead to the Continent of Asia when the Japanese have been overthrown and when she has recovered her strength. It is for us, in Great Britain, to give a similar lead in bringing to an end the Balkanisation of Western Europe; for in this world of super-States we can no longer regard such countries as Belgium, Portugal, Holland, or even ourselves in this Island, as having the potentialities and capacities of a great Power. Western Europe, which the hon. Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg) has called "an amazing power-house of thought and action and invention"— this corner of the world which has given so much to every other country, can be regarded to-day only as a congeries of small States, and it is for Great Britain to give the lead in bringing about some closer degree of integration in this wonderful part of our globe.

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It is my view that Europe is hungering for this unity; she has been hungering for it for a very long time. It has become perfectly clear that she will not accept unity from France—that was tried, and failed, under Napoleon. It has become abundantly clear, as a result of two world wars, that Europe will not accept unity from Germany. It should be abundantly clear that she will not accept it from the Soviet Union, for although the Soviet economy and form of society are looked upon with enthusiasm by millions throughout the West of Europe, any attempt to imitate it could only produce civil war. The fact has to be recognised. If unity is to come to Europe, that unity which Europe so abundantly desires, it can, in my submission, only come from and through Great Britain because Great Britain is the only Power baying the resources to achieve it, and having the moral position to bring it about; she is the only Power that is sufficiently disinterested and has shown herself sufficiently disinterested over the centuries. I appeal particularly to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary to-day to use all the influence that he has, in this great hour in the world's history, to bring about this measure of integration in Western Europe.
The noble Lord the Member for Lanark (Lord Dunglass) hinted that his own mind was travelling in the same direction when he spoke of the need for having close military agreements between this country, France and the United States, and I would like to pursue that line of thought. For it is clear that any closer integration in the world, if it is to succeed, cannot be based on mere sentimental considerations; it will not last if it is. It must be solidly based on a community of interest. Now have we between Great Britain and the nations in the West of Europe a sufficient community of interest to make us one society? I believe we have, and I will give several reasons for so thinking.
There is, in the first place, a sound military reason. We all have a common interest in seeing that Germany is never allowed again to become a danger to the peace of our Continent and, indeed, of the whole world, and that ought to make us get together. We all remember, I feel certain, the hesitations of the years before 1939, when, owing to the lack of any firm
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military commitments between ourselves and the nations of Western Europe, one country after another dithered in the hope of neutrality. Belgium is the outstanding example, but it was the same uncertainty about British military action that weakened the will of many in France. This uncertainty about our respective military commitments paralysed the action of Western Europe in those years. I hope we shall now see an end of it, and that after this war, we shall enter into the closest military arrangements with the nations of Western Europe, as a result of this common interest we have in seeing that Germany is never again a threat to us. We should enter into such close relationships with them that it would become clear to the whole world that an attack upon one is an attack upon all; in fact, that is bound to be the case. Surely, by now, we ought to have learned from two world wars that any military attack upon. these Powers is bound to bring us in sooner or later. Let us recognise that fact and, if we do so, we may be able to avert such happenings again.
There, then, is one good reason for thinking that we have a community of interest sufficient to make us one society. Again, we have a community of interest between this country and the West of Europe because, when Japan is defeated, we shall be practically the only Colonial Powers in the world, and this community of Colonial interests is another of the binding ties between us. If we can get such a closer integration as I desire, then we shall in fact have achieved what so many have asked for, an international pool of the Colonies, because we shall have achieved a pool of the countries that rule the Colonies. There is a great difference between countries having a Colonial policy and those that do not. We understand these problems in a way that other countries cannot, and it is bound to give us the necessary community of interests with such nations as Belgium, the Netherlands and Portugal. I would remark in passing—for it links up with my previous point—that it would be quite impossible for Belgium or Portugal or Holland to hold their Colonies for a single year if it were not for the protecting shield of the British Navy. We are bound up already, therefore, in a close community of interest.
Third among the points that give us a community of interest, I would place the

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fact that we all have a common seaboard. That is not merely sentimental, although I would not wish to under-estimate the strength of the sentimental ties that come from the sea; they certainly are very real. The sea gives us a community of interests, to put it quite bluntly, because the carriage of goods by sea is so much cheaper than the carriage of goods by land, and countries having the sea as their frontier are bound to have a community of interests with each other; it is that community which has made us such close friends in the past with countries so diverse as Portugal and Norway, and can be a solid foundation again for common action in the future.
Mr. Bowles: May I ask my hon. Friend a question? Had we not all these three interests between the years 1920 and 1939? We had the interest of keeping Germany down—that was something on which the League of Nations was run; we had the Colonies ourselves, and also the other community of interests which the hon. Member has just mentioned. Why should it be assumed that anything better is to happen from 1945 onwards than what happened before 1939?
Mr. Thomas: I am asking only that we should now recognise that community of interests and carry out its logical implications. Of course all these existed before, but it has needed a second world war to bring them home to a large number of people in this country. I am sufficiently old not to think that any startling new development is likely to take place in mankind at this late date. All the factors have been there, but we have simply not acted upon them, and I am asking now that we should do so and bring about that closer integration of the West of Europe with ourselves that is so very necessary.
I am not asking that we should all become one State—I think that would be unnecessary and it would frighten the more timid brethren. What I am asking is that we should have one foreign policy, one common defence plan, and one common plan for the major economic matters. I think that would give us the sufficiently close integration that we desire. I would like to point out, however, that we have in our own country achieved a much closer fusion than I suggest out of much more intractable matter. There is, in fact, a very close racial affinity between
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the people of England and the people of Holland, Denmark and Norway; in fact we very often pay them the compliment of thinking that they are ourselves. There is much less difference between a Norwegian and an Englishman than there is between an Englishman and a Welshman or an Englishman and a Scotsman. Yet, somehow in this country we have achieved the miracle of getting Englishmen and Welshmen and Scotsmen into a single community. What is the reason?
Commander Sir Archibald Southby: The Scots were absorbed into the English community.
Mr. I. Thomas: No, it is much subtler than that. The English have discovered a thing or two in the art of government, and when they conquered the Welsh they were wise enough to allow a Welshman to rule over them, and eventually permitted a Scotsman to rule over them. So I do not think it is simply a case of the Welsh and Scots being absorbed into England—the Scots at least could make out a strong claim to have provided more of the governing class of England than the English themselves. There is indeed a real integration in this country between the most diverse elements. How is it achieved? It is achieved by permitting in England, Wales and Scotland the fullest development of their local culture and religion. We get all sorts of diversities. For example, in Monmouthshire you cannot get a drink on Sunday; across the river in Gloucestershire you can. We get all sorts of those local varieties but we do not permit any varieties in the great matters of foreign policy, defence, and the major economic matters. I think a Scottish cheque for g is only worth 19s. 6d. in England, but these are only minor matters. The great desiderata are a common foreign policy, a common defence policy, and a common economic policy in all the major matters.
A great opportunity lies before us. There are certain occasions in the history of man that have to be seized or they will never recur, and I believe that this is one. The West of Europe is looking towards us. Those of us who have been privileged to see at close quarters their Governments in this country know that to be the case. For the Netherlands, M. Van Kleffens has made a public statement on

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this subject, and the other countries of Western Europe would like it also. It is to their interest we should do it, and it is to our interest that we should do it, and we can do it. Our prestige in Europe has never stood higher than it is at present. We alone, as is well realised in Europe, are the only country that entered the war in 1939 that has not been defeated, and they admire the way in which London and the other towns of this country have stood up to German bombing, never acknowledging defeat. Our prestige now is greater than ever before, and the personal prestige of the Prime Minister on the Continent, I would dare to add, is probably greater than that of any Englishman since Chatham. We have an opportunity now that will never recur, and I would earnestly beg the Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary to seize this opportunity. Europe is looking to them to give it something for which it has been yearning for centuries; they have it in their power to confer a gift on Europe greater than it has ever enjoyed for 2,000 years.
5,14 p.m.
Sir John Wardlaw-Milne: The House to-day has listened to a comprehensive and most interesting statement from the Prime Minister on the progress of the war, and I think it is only right that the House should have an opportunity of hearing and appreciating the tremendous change that has taken place in the war situation since we parted for the Recess. I think there is every reason for us to express our congratulations to the leaders of the Allied Nations who have borne the responsibility, and who are entitled to all that we can say by way of appreciation of the events of the last few weeks. Our thanks should certainly also be conveyed to, not only our Government but the Governments of the United States and Russia, for the great achievements of past weeks and for the improvement in the war situation which has taken place.
The Prime Minister made more than one appeal to-day to Members to be cautious in what they said about the foreign situation. I think we all appreciate that matters are very delicate and that it is desirable to be extremely careful in what one says. L appreciated what my right hon. Friend said in this connection
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about the Russian-Polish situation. I think it would be wise, although it may be against the feelings of some of us, to refrain from going into details, but I think that one matter which requires to be made public, or at least get more publicity than it has secured in the last few weeks is the tremendous effort which has been made by this country to try and carry out our obligations to Poland and to relieve Warsaw. In particular, I refer to the work of the Royal Air Force; I do not think it is known even in this country how desperate were the attempts we made and the losses we unfortunately suffered in trying to do our best for the beleagured people of Warsaw.
I do not want to go into the reasons which led the Russian Government to take up the attitude which they first adopted in this matter and, therefore, I will pass on to the wider aspect of affairs, to which the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Ivor Thomas) has just referred, namely, the results likely to arise from the deliberations at Dumbarton Oaks. There is a great deal in what the hon. Member opposite said with which I agree, but perhaps he will not mind if I say that I think he is a little too optimistic. I think there is a danger in too much optimism in these matters. It is very easy for any of us to say now how mistaken was the policy of isolation which we, and others, pursued previous to the war; it is easy for Members of this House to throw across the Chamber charges against past Governments, past statesmanship, charges that Governments should have been better prepared or that Oppositions should not have refused supplies and so on, but the real fact is that there was no nation in Europe that believed that war was likely to come about, excluding, of course, Germany. Certainly, we did not believe it. When I heard the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) speaking today I really wondered whether we had learned anything at all, whether we were not going to make the same mistakes all over again. People forget; their memories are very short indeed, especially in the tremendous events of these days.
I have had the experience, as no doubt have other Members, of talking to people. in London recently and I am amazed to find how quickly they have forgotten the early blitzes of the war. Of course, I am not referring to the people who have

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definitely suffered the destruction of their houses or have personally suffered in other ways, but the flying bomb has almost eliminated from their minds the effects of the earlier blitzes. When the flying bomb menace is finally removed, I have no doubt that a few months later a large number of people will remember it only vaguely. The same sort of danger will exist in all nations after this war. The hon. Member for Shettleston said that he objected to any occupation of Germany, and that if Germany was disarmed the evil men in that country would be dealt with by the Germans themselves. But if Germany is disarmed, how does he think she will be kept disarmed if there is no occupation? What does he think will be the condition of Germany? Nobody is so stupid as to say that there are no decent people in Germany. Of course there are, but the idea that you can trust the German people at the present time or in the near future is only laying up trouble for the future, and will mean that the same mistakes will be made again. The strongest course will have to be followed in Germany after this war. Although I do not want to-day to enter into details of what should be done—it is a matter which will require the attention of all the Allied Powers—it is clear that the main hope for the future peace of Western Europe, the first and main hope, is that the Powers of Western Europe should be agreed as to their treatment of Germany. If that is agreed, then we shall have made one step towards getting peace in the future. I said just now that it was easy to-day to say how mistaken our policy and the policy of the Western European nations was, but it was not only in Europe—
Mr. Cove: Could the hon. Member give us some idea of what he means by "Western European nations"?
Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne: When I said "Western European nations," I was taking the words from the hon. Member for Keighley. He went through them in detail, and I do not think it is necessary to go through them again. I want to emphasise the point that it is futile to believe that at one step you can achieve unanimity of ideals among the nations of the world or even in a small area like Western Europe. Nationalism is extremely strongly entrenched. It is difficult for nations, and especially those speaking dif
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ferent languages, thoroughly to understand each other in peace-time, let alone in war. We could not have a better example of that than the difficulty which the United States of America has to-day in understanding our problem in India, and, there, there is no language barrier. It has been a most difficult thing for the Government of this country to make clear to the people of the United States, who mean us well and are anxious to understand us, what are the real problems that we face there. That is an example of what is in front of us in the future. If we try to go too fast we shall make mistakes. If we try to start to talk about a union now, even of the Western European nations, I think we shall go too fast. If we can agree on fundamental matters, such as keeping certain national forces, not international forces—I do not believe we shall get that yet, although I hope we shall some day—to prevent further wars of aggression, and generally lay down the line on which we hope a future League of Nations can work then we shall have achieved something. I hope the hon. Member for Keighley will not think that I am disagreeing with him, but I fear that he is rather too optimistic in this matter.
I think we were all moved by the Prime Minister's references to France. We all want a sound, strong and self-reliant France. I cannot forget however—and I want to speak as plainly as other Members have done—what we have suffered as a result of France's defection in the early days of this war. That came about by political conditions in France which prevented unity, a strong and stable Government and a united people. That is why I want to see a strong Government now; I want to see something set up in France which will enable her to play her real part in the future settlement of the world and in that agreement between the Western European nations which we all desire to see established. Finally, I want national agreement at home, sa far as it is possible to get it, after this war. I do not believe that at this stage of the world's history a precise international setup of a lasting character to which we can put our signature can be achieved. It might be that even this country if we had to sign now might not be able to carry out her obligations when the time came for them to be fulfilled. In this matter let us go slowly, let us get agree-

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ment wherever we can and on that build something which, in the days to come, will give us that world-wide international understanding which wilt prevent wars in the future.
5.28 p.m.
Mr. Tinker: I do not intend to follow the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne) now in what he has said, but later in my speech I propose to deal with one of the points he has raised because it is part of my case. First, I would like to refer to the speech made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Taunton (Lieut.-Colonel Wickham). I think the House fully appreciated the statement he has given us about his visit to Australia. I appreciated it especially, because I know something of what is happening out there. I have a married sister in Australia who has three sons fighting in the Japanese war, and she has described to me, in her letters, the terrible things going on in the Pacific war, especially in New Guinea. I would like to support what the hon. and gallant Member said about the possibility of allowing an Australian or New Zealand regiment to pay a visit to this country when the war is over. Such a visit would enable us to show our full appreciation of what we thought about them. I had several letters from Canadians and Americans, who have expressed the wish that when the war is over they would like to come to this country again and thank us for the treatment which they have received here. Such visits would strengthen the bonds of friendship which we have made during this war.
I would like heartily to endorse the Prime Minister's statement that we shall continue with our Allies until Japan is finally beaten. I am glad he has made this public in such an important speech, because it will have an effect on the world, on America and especially Japan. When Japan knows that there is to be no let-up in our determination to carry on the war until the very end, it might bring her to her senses more quickly. The Prime Minister outlined what is likely to happen after the war, and when talking about the Dumbarton Oaks Conference said he did not want us to say too much about what we felt. I think now is the time to express our feelings on what we think ought to be done. It is no good waiting
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until what we call our leaders come to some understanding, and their pledged word has been given to some other people, and then they expect the House of Commons to follow them because they can rightly say, "We had no indication what you had in your mind, therefore we have given our word to the Allies and we do not like to depart from it." When they make that statement, one can understand the position, because those on a negotiating body make certain concessions to the other side in the hope that those for whom they speak will agree. Therefore, it is as well that the negotiating body should know what is in our mind.
It all bears on Article VI of the Atlantic Charter, which definitely states that we are bound together for two specific purposes—to free the world from want and to free the world from fear. A report has been issued from the Hot Springs Conference which says that, if the world is organised on a proper basis, there is no need of any fear for the future in regard to want. There is sufficient food in the world to give us a much higher standard of life than we are enjoying now. But if the fear of want is removed, and the fear of aggression remains, what good is it? The fear of want is always there. How is the fear of aggression going to be tackled? My views may startle some. When we have beaten Germany, I should put into that country a force sufficient to keep the Germans subjected until such time as we are satisfied that there is no fear of their rising in arms again. That force would be contributed by the United States, the Commonwealth of Great Britain and Soviet Russia. It would be of very great strength under one supreme commander, it might be Eisenhower or Montgomery—a great man with full power to act. When we have settled with Germany it would not take long to let them know their position, and put them in their proper place. I would then withdraw the force from Germany to some neutral place, and invite all peace-loving nations to join in this international body. I would ask them to contribute in equal proportions to this international police force. It would be set up for the sole purpose of dealing with any attempt at aggression from whatever country it might come.
For instance, imagine a difference between Russia and Poland. The United

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Powers might say to Poland, "You have to have this," though they might feel that Poland was badly treated, and Russia would go her way, as has happened in the past. Every big nation in the past has said, "This is what I intend to do and it is right, because I have might." The aggrieved nation has gathered around her a lot of other nations, who say, "That ought not to happen," and war inevitably follows. I would say to Russia, or to any other nation, "If you have a grievance and satisfaction is not arrived at, submit your case to the international body, which will say who is right." This international force will have full power to act and to determine what should be done. Britain in the past has always regarded herself as above everyone else, but other nations may not have had the same view. We should have to submit our case to the international body and take its decision. If we believe in peace at all, there can be no objection to that.
During this war America, Russia and Britain have made common sacrifices. If we trust each other, as we are doing now, why cannot we trust each other when the war is over, for the future of peace and for the good of the world? Unless we are prepared to do that, and join the common pool, and set up an international police force on the lines I have indicated, then as sure as night follows day, there will be another war—perhaps in the next generation. If we get away from this war for 12 months, without setting up something on these lines, there are the seeds of a future war. We have been told that London is already forgetting about the flying bomb and the blitz. We forget the horrors of war and we are getting ready for another. We should remember what this war has meant. Our National Debt has gone up from £8,000,000,000 to £20,000,000,000. If we get away from this war, we shall be setting up a defence force again to be ready for any sign of aggression. I believe that, unless we are prepared to make a common sacrifice now and put our trust in the other nations, that is the Allies, and set up an international force, war is inevitable. Now is the time to tackle the question, and that is why I have put my views forward in the hope that they will be examined, to see if something can be done on those lines.
5.38 p.m.
Commander Sir Archibald Southby: It behoves everyone who holds even the humblest public position to tread delicately when discussing foreign affairs, but that does not mean that, if a man's conscience impels him to speak, he should refuse to obey its dictates and remain silent. I believe it was Montaigne who said:
"A man must not alwaies say all he knowes for that were follie, but what a man speakes ought to be agreeing to his thoughts, otherwise it is impiety."
Not unnaturally, while our fate was hanging in the balance, military considerations were apt to monopolise our attention, but now that our final victory is, we hope and believe, secure, it is not only desirable but imperative that we should give proper consideration to our foreign policy, since what we do now will influence not only the future of other nations but affect for all time the reputation of the British people for honour and justice. That being so, it is of paramount importance that the nations of Europe should believe implicitly in the integrity of this country. There is, in this House, too often a tendency to postpone the consideration of important matters on the ground that for one reason or another the time is not opportune or that the situation is so delicate that public discussion might do harm. But an open Debate in this House is less likely to cause international misunderstanding than widespread and general discussion on the part of members of the public, who may well be either insufficiently or wrongly informed. Events inexorably force us to bend our minds to consideration of the future of Europe. This is no time for diplomatic casuistry. This is a time for plain and honest speaking between leaders and between nations and, above all, it is a time for adherence to the fundamental principles of justice and honour, no matter what such adherence may cost.
I intend to confine myself in the main to the consideration of the affairs of Poland and of the three Baltic republics, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania, so far as they concern us, because I believe our policy in respect of those States must colour the whole of our outlook as regards foreign affairs. It cannot be denied that not only Members of this House, but the general public outside, are seriously perturbed regarding the existing relationships between our two Allies, Russia and

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Poland, and between them and ourselves. It would, I think, be fair to assume three things. Firstly, that the British people consider that we went to war in the first instance to defend the independence of Poland; secondly, that Russia now desires to acquire by negotiation if possible but otherwise by force majeure, certain portions of Poland which she wants to add to Soviet territory; and thirdly, that it has been generally thought that we were, in some way, letting Poland down. I believe that both the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary are—
Earl Winterton: Who are the people in this country who believe that we are letting Poland down?
Sir A. Southby: The noble Lord's speeches in this House nearly always consist of interruptions of someone else, though he always resents anyone daring to interrupt him.
Earl Winterton: That means that the hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot answer the question.
Sir A. Southby: If the noble Lord will go to his own constituents, he will get a pretty good answer. I believe that both the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary are deserving of the utmost praise for their untiring efforts to find a solution of the Soviet-Polish difficulty, more particularly during the past few weeks and I shall try to heed the advice given by the Prime Minister in his speech to-day, but justice demands that although speech should be restrained it should also be plain. Everyone in the House, including the noble Lord, is entitled to have his own views.
Earl Winterton: The hon. and gallant Gentleman's graciousness and courtesy are most unusual.
Sir A. Southby: It is always a marvel to me that after the 44—or is it 54?—years that the noble Lord has sat in the House, his courtesy should remain so little as it is. I pay a heartfelt tribute to our Russian Ally, for her magnificent achievements in the field which have in conjunction with the efforts made by ourselves and the United States ensured the final defeat of Nazi tyranny. It would, however, be both wrong and unwise, for those who guide the destinies of the Soviet Union, to imagine that the fate of Poland and the Baltic
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Republics and the demarcation of their boundaries are no concern of ours or that the British people do not feel that their honour is involved. May I remind the House that after the Russo-Polish war of 1920 it was we who suggested to the Poles that they should retire behind what is now called the Curzon line, but that it was the Soviet Government who refused to accept the mediation of the great Powers and insisted upon negotiating direct with Poland alone? As a result of those negotiations- the treaty of Riga was signed in March, 1921. Article 3 of that treaty said:
"Russia and the Ukraine abandoned all rights and claims to the West of the frontier."
On 15th March, 1923, a representative conference of ambassadors passed a resolution recognising the Eastern boundaries of Poland as set out in the treaty of Riga, and that resolution was assented to by the United States of America on 25th April, 1923. In May, 1939, the Polish Foreign Minister received from the Soviet Vice-Commissar for Foreign Affairs an assurance that in the event of war between Poland and Germany Russia would adopt an attitude of benevolence towards the Poles. That event took place, and on 17th September, 1939, Russian troops invaded Poland. Eleven days later what is called the Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement was published under which each of the signatories took approximately half Poland. Anyone who reads "The Times," as most people do, and observes the way in which the Polish case is played down, must marvel at the change which seems to have come over that paper's point of view. This is what "The Times" said on 30th September, 1939, when writing of the Nazi-Soviet pact announced two days before:
" The Allied pledge to Poland stood irrefragable, fortified, if that be possible, by the valour and self sacrifice of the Poles themselves."
It went on to speak of
"freedom and independence for the Polish nation within frontiers as unchallengeable as that which Germany violated on 1st September."
It was not long before Germany turned on Russia, as the result of which the Soviet Government on 30th July, 1941, renounced the Ribbentrop Molotov agreement. Nothing could have been more categorical than the admission of the Soviet Government that the terms

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of the agreement with Germany regarding territorial changes in Poland had lost their force. On the same day our Foreign Secretary declared specifically that we did not recognise any territorial changes made in Poland since 1939. The following day a similar declaration was made by Mr. Sumner Welles on behalf of the United States Government. In January, 1943, it became clear that the Soviet Government intended to insist upon a Russo-Polish frontier, in effect the one laid down in the Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement which the Soviet had themselves renounced on 30th July, 1941. These are historical facts.
Russia's desire for a rectification of her frontier is quite understandable, but that rectification must take place by agreement and not by force. We could agree to the so-called Curzon Line only if the Polish Government and the Palish people agreed to it of their own free will and not under coercion.
Dare anyone deny that the Poles have scrupulously discharged all their obligations in the war against Germany? By sea, land and air Poles have fought alongside our own men with incomparable valour. Never for one moment has their spirit or their heroism faltered, Until the war is over and it is possible for the Polish people, unfettered and uncoerced, to express their views as to how they shall be governed and by whom, the Polish President in London, the Polish Prime Minister in London, and the Polish Government in London are the rightful rulers and leaders of Poland. Meanwhile, the present situation and, maybe, post-war harmony among the Allies are being imperilled by the activities of the organisation called the Polish Committee of National Liberation. Let us face facts. It is, in effect, a Government set up in Moscow in opposition to the lawfully constituted Government of Poland whose Ministers are here in London. Weeks ago the Polish Prime Minister put forward a memorandum which it was hoped would form the basis for an agreement between the Soviet and Polish Governments. In spite of that, the Polish Committee of National Liberation has taken upon itself to sign agreements with the Government of the Ukraine Soviet Republic and the White Russian Republic concerning the transfer of Polish and Soviet populations, which is surely a matter for the proper Polish Government.
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Answering questions in the House on 26th January this year, the Foreign Secretary reaffirmed the statement which was made by the Prime Minister on 5th September, 1940, namely, that we should not recognise any territorial changes which had taken place during the war unless they took place with the free consent and good will of the parties concerned. He also reaffirmed the categorical note which he had addressed to the late General Sikorski after the signature of the Russo-Polish agreement in 1941. The Prime Minister is constantly faced with situations of great complexity which would daunt a lesser man than he. I realise how difficult must be many of the decisions which he has to take, but I cannot believe that I was the only person in the House on 22nd February this year who felt some disquiet when I heard him say:
"I cannot feel that the Russian demand for a reassurance about her Western frontiers goes beyond the limits of what is reasonable and just."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd February, 1944; Vol. 397, c. 698.]
The Russo-Polish frontier which the Soviet Government now seek to establish is the same frontier established by force in 1939. The British Government in September, 1939, said regarding Poland:
"This attack made upon an Ally at a moment when she is prostrate in the face of the overwhelming forces brought against her by Germany cannot in the view of His Majesty's Government be justified by the arguments put forward by the Soviet Government."
That was endorsed two days later by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood), speaking for the party opposite, who said:
"There can be do doubt that the justification of it was a justification which reasonable people who had seen, as we have seen, previous acts of aggression, could not accept for one moment."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th September, 1937; Vol. 351, c. 984.]
Recent events in Warsaw have served to stimulate public interest in Polish affairs. On 1st August the heroic Poles rose against their German oppressors. It has been most unfairly suggested in some quarters that the rising was premature and unauthorised, but the fact is that the local commanders acted in accordance with general instructions, which had been submitted both to President Roosevelt and to the Prime Minister, and the Polish Prime Minister has stated that on 31st July this year he also informed M. Molo-

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tov, the Russian Commissar for Foreign Affairs. Quite apart from that, for months past from both the Soviet-sponsored wireless station, Kosciuszko, and in the broadcasts by the Union of Polish Patriots, appeals were being made for an armed revolt against the Germans in Poland, and attacks were being made on General Bor, who commands the Polish Army in Warsaw, on the ground of his alleged inactivity. In June the Moscow radio said that it was generally believed that the time to strike had come. On 29th July, a direct appeal was made by wireless to the Patriot Forces to the effect that direct armed action in the streets of Warsaw would hasten the time of final liberation. On 30th July another appeal went out by wireless. It said:
"Warsaw shakes from the roar of guns. The Soviet armies are pushing forward and are nearing Praga. The Germans when pushed out of Praga will attempt to hold Warsaw and will try to destroy everything. People of Warsaw to arms! Attack the Germans! Assist the Red Army in crossing the Vistula."
Two days later General Bor and his men went into action. Nobody could deny that the rising benefited the advancing Red Army, because it delayed the passage of German reinforcements on their way to the front. Unfortunately, the Russian advance was held up by very heavy German resistance from at least three panzer divisions. Surely one would have imagined that every effort would then have been made to assist the Poles in Warsaw. What they needed was arms, ammunition and food, and yet in spite of frantic appeals from General Bor and from the Polish Prime Minister and Government in London they were left to their own resources. It was not until 15th or r6th August that bombers, manned by British, Polish and South African crows, who had to fly a round trip of 1,750 miles, and who lost 21 out of 100 bombers, brought some succour to our hard-pressed Allies in Warsaw. Since then, thank God, assistance has gone to Warsaw from us, the Russians and the Americans.
Two questions demand an answer. First, we have been told repeatedly that Russia has virtual command of the air on the Eastern front. Why, then, should General Bor have had to write on 5th August that German bombers were active and were operating with no interference
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from the Russian Air Force? Why were Russian machines not dropping the arms and ammunition that Warsaw needed? It may well be that other military considerations were of so urgent a nature that no Soviet machines could be spared, but if that be true then the second question arises. Why did our machines have to fly this immensely long flight instead of being allowed to use Russian airfields which must have been in reasonably close proximity to Warsaw? They were denied the right to land on Russian aerodromes until fairly recently.
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): I am sure that my hon. and gallant Friend does not wish to put the case wrong and add to a difficult situation. There was never a question of our asking for facilities on Russian airfields. Ow flights were done from Italy direct.
Sir A. Southby: I of course accept my right hon. Friend's correction. I should have said United States aircraft were refused the right to land.
Mr. Woodburn: I gather that the hon. and gallant Gentleman is anxious to help Poland, as we all are. Is he not aware that one of the main troubles, as far as we can judge, is the Russian fear that Poland is being supported by people who are anti-Russian? Is not the tenour of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's speech such as to suggest that he is a friend of Poland and anti-Russian, and, instead of helping the situation between Poland and Russia, he is actually contributing to the misunderstandings that are causing the trouble?
Sir A. Southby: I pay my tribute, as I always have done, to what has been done by the Soviet Armies. I believe that the future of the world lies in an understanding between the Soviet Government, ourselves and the United States, but I believe with all my heart and soul that you will never get on with the Soviet Government unless there is plain speaking between them and us, and that no useful purpose is served by denying justice to Poland because you wish to put down the soft pedal with the Soviet Government. I am being scrupulously careful in what I have been saying and am anxious not to be led away by interruptions. On 29th

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August the R.A.F. did a 2,000-mile flight in bad weather in order to assist the Russian Army by bombing the Baltic ports of Stettin and Koenigsberg, and the operation cost us 41 aircraft. If we could do this to help our Russian Ally, surely they could have found some machines to fly the infinitely shorter distance which would have brought help to Warsaw. I have tried to state the Polish case moderately and fairly. It deserves in justice to be stated. What we do as regards Poland will colour the opinion of the whole of Europe so far as Britain is concerned when the war is over.
I wish now to say a few words regarding the Baltic Republics. War reports have deliberately used such phrases as "The Latvian Soviet Republic," and similar references have been made in B.B.C. announcements. It is being insidiously suggested that these three independent Republics desire to become part of the Soviet Union. There is no justification for any such assumption. and we owe it to our national honour that the true facts should be clearly stated and the British people, whom we represent in this House, should be made aware of them. These three Republics have at this time proper legally accredited representative Ministers in this country. I want to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has or has not received from those Ministers formal declarations to the effect that the Republics desire to maintain their independence and not to become part of the Soviet Union.
It is frequently said of enemy-occupied States that their Governments, or their Ministers resident in London, are not representative of the true feelings of their nationals at home, and that where National Committees of Liberation have been set up their views are the only ones which should be accepted. I wish to be as brief as possible, so I will take the case of only one of these Republics, namely, Lithuania.
The Red Army occupied Lithuania on 15th June, 1940. The lawful Government of Lithuania was replaced by a Government which, under the direct control of Soviet officials, held an election at which all existing political parties were proscribed, and only candidates of the newly-created Working People's Union, approved by the Soviet Legation in Lithuania, were allowed to stand for elec-
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tion. This so-called Parliament met on 21st July, 1940, and was forced to vote for the incorporation of Lithuania into the Soviet Union. On 3rd August, 1940, the Soviet Government declared Lithuania to be the 14th Soviet Lithuanian Republic of the U.S.S.R. Both the British and United States Ministers in Lithuania were resident in Lithuania at that time and can bear witness to what exactly took place.
Let the British people note that the Government of the United States of America publicly condemned the action of the Soviet. Mr. Sumner Welles, the acting Secretary of State in Washington, made a public statement on 23rd July, 1940, in which he said:
"During the past few days, the devious processes whereunder the political independence and territorial integrity of the three small Baltic Republics, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, were to be deliberately annihilated by one of their more powerful neighbours, have been rapidly drawing to their conclusion. The people of the United States have watched the admirable progress of these Baltic Republics with sympathy and interest and are opposed to predatory acts, no matter whether they are carried out by the use of force or by the threat of force. They are likewise opposed to any form of intervention on the part of one State, however powerful, in the domestic concerns of any other sovereign State, however weak."
On 15th October, 1940, the President of the United States, in the course of replying to an address which had been submitted to him by a delegation of Americans of Lithuanian origin, said this:
"It is stated here that Lithuania has lost her 'independence. It is a mistake to say so. Lithuania did not lose her independence. Lithuania's independence was only temporarily put aside."
He went on to say:
"Even the smallest nation has the same right to enjoy independence as the largest nation."
After Germany had attacked Russia, and when the Red Army had left Lithuania, the former members of the People's Parliament met, on 30th August, 1942, and passed a Resolution which said that the People's Diet. which was that Parliament. could not and did not express the will of the Lithuanian nation because the structure of the People's Diet had been decided upon in advance by the Communist Party in accordance with orders received from Moscow's representatives in Lithuania, and because the actual voting for incorporation into the Soviet Union was irre-

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gular, only 16 to 18 per cent. of the voting cards being valid.
I apologise to the House, but it is necessary to give this story in full. On 14th October, 1943, a joint declaration was drawn up by members of various Lithuanian political parties and combat organisations. It was signed by the Lithuanian National Union, the Peasant Populist Union of Lithuania, the Union of Combatants for the Liberty of Lithuania, the Lithuanian Nationalist Party, the Social Democratic Party of Lithuania, the Lithuanian Christian Democratic Party and the Lithuanian Front. Could anything be more representative, coming from an occupied country, than that? This declaration begins by saying that the Lithuanian nation desires the true voice of the Lithuanian people to be heard by the outside world, and goes on to point out that, in the Treaty between Russia and Lithuania on 12th July, 1920,
"Russia, without any reservation, recognises Lithuania as a separate and independent State with all the juridical consequences ensuing from such a recognition, and voluntarily renounces for all time the rights of sovereignty which it has exercised over the Lithuanian people and their territory."
It also records that, on 12th October, 1939, speaking of treaties with the Baltic States, the Soviet Commissar for Foreign Affairs said:
"We stand for the conscientious and exact observation of the treaties concluded, on the principle of entire reciprocity, and declare the idle talk about the Sovietisation of the Baltic States to be profitable only to our common enemies, and to all kinds of anti-Soviet provocateurs."
This joint declaration must be accepted as coming from the Lithuanian people, who make this definite statement:
"From the very beginning, the Lithuanian nation has held the Sovietisation of Lithuania and her incorporation into the Soviet Union to be null and void."
I ask the House to bear with me, while I quote from one other document. On 16th February this year, the Supreme Committee for Liberation of Lithuania addressed an appeal to the Lithuanian people. It is an appeal to all shades of political opinion in Lithuania, and it declares that the independence of Lithuania is an indispensable condition for the nation's existence and well-being. Let the House note that the three documents from which I have quoted, are not the state-
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ments of any one Minister, but of representative organisations of the Lithuanian people, which makes it clear, beyond all shadow of doubt, that the suggestion that Lithuania desires to become part of Soviet Russia is utterly false. I assume that all these documents are in the possession of our Foreign Office. If I am wrong, perhaps my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will correct me. The same overwhelming case could be made out for both Latvia and Estonia. I should like to conclude this part of my speech by quoting what Lord Halifax said in the House of Lords on 24th August, 1939:
"In failing to uphold the liberty of others, we run the great risk of betraying the principle of liberty itself and with it our own freedom and independence."
I hope the House, which has been very patient, more patient than I dared to hope, will bear with me, for one moment longer. There are just two things further that I want to say. The first is that I find every reason for disquiet regarding our attitude towards Italy. I read in the Press of 19th September that the Italian Government, under Signor Bonomi, has agreed with the big three—meaning the British Empire, the United States and Russia—to make a formal declaration renouncing all territorial claims made since Mussolini came to power. I think we are entitled to have a clear and unequivocal statement on this subject. Does this mean that Italy is still to retain Libya and Tripoli? If so, what becomes of the statement of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs made in answer to a Question in this House on 28th July, when he was asked whether it was the intention of His Majesty's Government and of Allied Governments to restore to Italy, following her honourable capitulation, all her former possessions in North Africa, and when he replied, "No, Sir."
Mr. Eden: If it will give any comfort to my hon. and gallant Friend, I can tell him that that statement still stands.
Sir A. Southby: Knowing my right hon. Friend as well as I do, I feel sure that that is so, but it is just as well to reinforce it. When the Prime Minister was speaking on the war situation, on 21st September, 1943, referring to the Italian people, he said:
"Their Empire has been lost, irretrievably lost."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st September, 1943; Vol. 392, c. 87.]

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In making that statement, he had the vast majority of the British people solidly behind him. We nearly lost this war because of our inability to dominate the Mediterranean by sea and by air. The heroism of the Air Force and of the Navy and above all the unspeakable heroism of Malta saved us. It was Malta that stood alone between us and defeat in the Mediterranean. We now control bases in ex-Italian territory in North Africa which would guarantee our security in the Mediterranean for all time. Surely we are not going tamely to surrender them, and, let them go back to Italy.
The other thing I want to say is: Let us set our faces against any return to that sloppy-minded internationalism which is a dangerous substitute for a just and honourable British foreign policy, based on principle. The British Empire is neither for sale nor will its people consent to any portion of it, however small, being run under any form of international trusteeship.
6.II p.m.
Mr. Vernon Bartlett: My hon. and gallant Friend who has just spoken will, I hope, forgive me if I do not follow him in his historical dissertation. There are three reasons. The first is that there is no part of the globe which so teaches us how little objective a study history can be as Eastern Europe. Another reason is that I do not want to complicate the already heartbreakingly difficult task in front of the Foreign Secretary. The third reason is that I have as great a respect for the Poles as any person in this House and I have as great a sympathy with the citizens of Warsaw as any one. In fact, only a few weeks ago, because I expressed my feelings rather pointedly, I was called "Fascist scum" by one of the principal Soviet papers. Nevertheless, I do not think these discussions can help the Poles at the present time, when we are all waiting to hear what is going to happen to General Sosnkowski and to the proposals put up by this Polish Government to the Soviet Government in Moscow. For those reasons I do not follow my hon. and gallant Friend's line to-day.
There is one other reason, which is that the Prime Minister covered such an enormous field that I would not like to take up the time of the House by trying
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to develop an argument on any more than one point that the Prime Minister made. Some years ago I was present at an international conference of agricultural experts in Paris. One of the German delegates had never visited Paris before, and the French went very much out of their way to make a good impression upon him. They took him and his fellow delegates not only all round the agricultural areas of France, but to Montmartre and Montparnasse, gave him the best champagne and the best Burgundy, took him to the best shows and all the rest of it. When they took him to the station to see him off and say goodbye, they asked him what had impressed him most in France. He hesitated, and would not express an opinion. One of them said: "Surely something about France must have impressed you." Finally, he said: "Yes, I was impressed by the small size of your pigs." When I take up one small point, therefore, considering the size of the available field of argument, I may seem to put myself very much in the same position as this German. I would have liked to follow the example of my hon. Friend above the Gangway (Mr. Tinker) who always speaks with such burning sincerity. I believe with him that however great the difficulties between Governments may be of reaching international agreement about the post-war settlement, it is important that we should have as much discussion inside this country as possible about the kind of post-war settlement we want, so that our delegates will not go to the conferences and pledge this country to agreements for which public opinion is not prepared.
That leads me to the one point I want to make to-day. In view of what the Prime Minister said about the difficulties of reaching agreement internationally, it surely is vitally important that we should re-establish, as soon as we can, the maximum facilities for the interchange of views and ideas. Europe is emerging from four years of black-out, and it is emerging, as far as we can make out, not with the timidity shown by us who live in London, who still look upon even a very faint light as though it were a moral crime; they are emerging from this black-out with an almost revolutionary enthusiasm. It seems that the people of Europe have never, in the whole course of their history, been more receptive of new ideas, more

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anxious to know what has been happening to the people in this country in these four years of separation. We have a wonderful opportunity for preparing for this international agreement about which the Prime Minister spoke to-day.
The Prime Minister mentioned the change of policy towards Italy. I gather from some of the speeches and some comments I have heard in the country that this change of policy has come to people as rather a shock, and especially to our Allies, the Greeks and Yugoslavs and the French, who have suffered from the Italians. It is not so long ago that things were said in this House about the Italians which would make it almost as logical to say, because we now say that the Italians were not responsible for Mussolini, that the German people were not responsible for Hitler. Nevertheless I personally believe this change is a wise one. I think the economic position of Italy is tragic and disastrous, and gives the German Government an excellent opportunity of really good propaganda against us by persuading the German people that surrender would be worse than to continue a war in which defeat is so inevitable.
If it has come as a shock to people it is because so little is done to re-establish this exchange of news and ideas. It is just four months ago that Rome was liberated. Even to-day no British correspondent can go to Rome to write about conditions there unless he disguises himself as a war correspondent. It is surely ridiculous that if I want to go to Rome to carry on my job as a journalist, I have to dress myself up in a uniform. [Interruption.] My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg)—honourable and gallant Member, since he has the honorary rank of officer—has been more successful than I have in working his way overseas. I congratulate him. As a matter of fact I have not tried to get abroad yet, but I do think it is scandalous that, four months after the liberation of Rome, no British correspondent can go there unless he goes as a war correspondent.
I would pay the warmest tribute to war correspondents. I think the job they have done in this war has been magnificent, but after all by the nature of their job and training they are not the best
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possible people to comment on social, economic or political developments in a country. I think if we are going to have newspapers at all—I am very glad that we have—there are some of us who to the best of our small ability have tried to follow the course of international politics and I should say we are probably fairly well entitled to comment on them. Also there are other people, economists and so on, who should be sent as soon as possible to France and to other countries which are being liberated to find out what the situation is in those countries.
If that had been done we should not have had, for example, those devastatingly dangerous reports from Normandy in the early days when one or two correspondents found there were masses of cheeses and so on in Normandy and did not realise that that was a sign of poverty because Normandy was the part of the country from which food was sent to France. It meant that no commerce was going on. People read that and concluded that the whole of France was very prosperous indeed. As soon as possible one should reopen lines of communication for ideas. Yet there are scores of journalists and writers and authors of one kind and another who cannot get permits to go to Paris because they are not given permits by S.H.A.E.F. [Interruption.] One cannot, as my hon. Friend has just said, easily get French newspapers in this country. I was shown a batch the other day as a great privilege. I think the Minister of Information is just beginning to get them.
The importance of this seems to me to be that there never has been a time when the French people and the Belgian people have been more curious about developments in this country, and by accounts one hears they have no idea what the people of this country have been through in the way of hardship in these last four years. Is it not vitally important they should be told that as soon as possible? In the only case I know of a distinguished writer who has gone over to France—I do not know if he had the consent of S.H.A.E.F., I rather think not—his account of the welcome he was given by the French people on his arrival in Paris is one of the most moving things I have heard. I urge that the Government shall take up this question as soon as possible. There is it is true the food difficulty but a

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lot of distinguished writers and historians and other people in this country could go to France for a few days and take army rations with them. I do not therefore think the food objection is a very important one. I would beg the Government to keep in mind that all these misunderstandings in different countries which we must remove will become much more difficult to solve if, in their formative weeks after their liberation, we do not develop the maximum number of contacts with them.
That brings me to a very short second consideration about the dissemination of news. There is a great movement developing in the United States and a growing movement here for a distinction between news and propaganda. We want to get rid of propaganda as soon as we can after the war, and we want to get as much as we can of free exchange of news. Both Houses of Congress in Washington have approved a resolution demanding equality of access to information at the source. In other words, they want an international agreement that news agencies shall be free to sell their services wherever they can in foreign countries. It is vitally important we should not get back to the pre-war situation when there was, for example, the Stefani agency in Rome and Havas in Paris, which filtered all the news which came from outside and only allowed their public to get the news they thought was good for them. Once a government can control the coming in of news and only allow the people to read what it thinks is good for them, it has surely taken a definite step towards Fascism and war. At the present time Reuter's Agency or the Associated Press of American may not distribute their news to the Italian papers. It is done by the Anglo-American Psychological Warfare Department. This is obviously reasonable for a while as a war measure, but the sooner we can get rid of that the better. I hope the British Government will give the fullest possible support to this movement to abolish the system of one government-controlled news agency in any country. I am convinced that every monopoly is a danger, but there is no monopoly more dangerous than a monopoly of ideas, views and news.
6.25 p.m.
Sir Edward CampbellWe have heard again to-day a very great speech from the Prime Minister, ranging
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over practically the whole world, and personally I was particularly struck, through my association with that part of the world, with the friendly remarks he made regarding the Dutch, which I am sure will be very much appreciated. ft was very appropriate, too, I thought, that a few days ago, while our troops were invading Holland trying to relieve Holland, His Majesty was pleased to confer the Order of the Garter on Queen Wilhelmina—a very gracious act, one showing respect and friendliness, all of which will be appreciated very much by the Dutch people, who think very highly of this country. I hope that when those of them who are here, as in the case of other countries, return to their own country the friendships they have made and the gestures made by our Ministers to them will be continued.
I was particularly pleased—I understand the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker), who is not in his place just now, referred to it—that at Quebec the Prime Minister made such a strong stand and insisted upon the British Empire having their rightful share in the defeat of Japan. It is an extraordinary thing but some people seem to imagine that, as they call it, the affair with Japan is merely secondary, and that as soon as Germany is beaten the thing is practically finished. I would suggest to such people that they forget that Japan, as Germany never did, has actually beaten us in war. She occupies to-day several thousands of miles of British territory, with a population of somewhere around 20,000,000 British subjects, some of them white, some of them black, but nevertheless all good British subjects. I hope the Prime Minister, equally, will see to it that the Dutch, too, have their share in regaining their Colonies and their possessions, a larger territory in fact than the British territory that has been lost, and with a population of not less than 70,000,000. I can assure hon. Members that the Dutch people have been very good to their native population, and the natives will be delighted to get back once again under the Dutch flag, in the same way as I am perfectly sure our natives will be glad to get back once again under the British flag.
These people in Japanese hands are suffering terribly. Only 10 days ago, I read in a newspaper that a cousin of mine, Colonel Sir John Campbell, who had been

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a great soldier in the last war, and who was in Penang and taken prisoner and was taken over to Sumatra, had died from starvation. I mention one particular person. There are hundreds more, thousands more, suffering equally, and if one is able to point to one person, I daresay other persons are able to point to many others. I would like those people who think this is but a secondary affair, to appreciate our prestige in the Far East, our future in the Far East, the fulfilment of our promise to China to assist her to the best of our ability as soon as possible. Unless there are British Forces capable and ready to hand to beat the Japanese our prestige, our future, our friendship with the natives, our promises to the natives—who naturally feel, as all of us would, that they have been let down—will be imperilled.
We have heard hon. Members in this House say that we have let them down. That is another argument altogether. Personally, I am satisfied that the Government have done all they can in the past, but I want to make sure that. when we are able to take it, we have our right share in the defeat of Japan. I do not think it will be a walk-over, even though we shall be fighting alongside the Americans, the Dutch, and the Chinese. Japan is a series of well-defended islands, the largest as big as France, not a little place like the Isle of Wight, as some people think, or even like the British Isles. The Japanese are just as much foreigners in the jungle as we are. There is not a lot of jungle in Japan. When I was in the jungle and the Japanese came there, I admit that I did not see them, because one did not know whether they were Japanese or some of those gentlemen who fly about in the trees, but they were just as much foreigners in the jungle as we were; nor did they like the mosquitoes or the bugs any more than we did. The only difference is that they do not need the same kind of food as we do; and that is an important proposition.
I might say that the houses in Japan are not made of wood or plaster; they are good, strongly-made houses, shock-proof, so as to withstand earthquakes, and I have no doubt that they will stand up to bombs much better than some of our own houses. The Japanese are, to my mind, only half-civilised, but, nevertheless, they are brave, clever, and fanatical, and are willing to
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die, as they have already proved, for what they believe to be the country of the gods. Of course, we shall beat them—that is a certainty—but it may be a long tussle. There is one thing that we have never understood, and that is why they did not allow us to send people to see our nationals who are prisoners. I understand that when a Japanese leaves his home to go to the war he is entirely divorced from his family. There is no letter-writing, no parcels, or anything of that sort. If he comes back, a la bonne heure; if he does not, that is that. Our boys abroad appreciate getting letters and parcels, but the Japanese get no such things. It will be difficult for the Allies to find a satisfactory solution of Japan's future, and, in the immortal words of an earlier Mikado, "to make the punishment fit the crime."
6.35 p.m.
Commander King-Hall: I hope that the hon. Member for Bromley (Sir E. Campbell) will forgive me if I do not follow him in detail in what he said, but I would like to make this comment, as one who spent two years in that part of the world, at the time of the great Japanese earthquake. What he said about the size of Japan is a fact that should be brought home to the people of this country. But he might take some comfort from the fact that Japan, like ourselves, is extremely dependent on sea communications, and there is no doubt that Japan is getting into increasing difficulty. Therefore, I am more hopeful than the hon. Member seems that once we are able to bring the full force of the American Navy—as to the size of which I think the figures, when they are revealed, will stagger the world—and of our own naval forces, there is some hope that we may fairly quickly isolate the main island of Japan and finish the war.
I would like to go back to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker), which I think the hon. and gallant Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) would describe as being a speech of sloppy internationalism—not that I have ever associated sloppiness with my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh. My hon. Friend, I think, would agree that his speech could be summed up as a "what is in my mind" speech. He thought that the time had arrived when Members could get up and tell the Government what was in their minds on certain matters. While the war was in an

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uncertain condition there was a natural, commendable, very proper self-restraint put upon themselves by practically all Members of the House, particularly in discussions on foreign affairs. I believe that the House is beginning to feel that the time has come to change from this voluntary mental black-out to a dim-out. We can afford to speak more freely on certain matters.
There is a danger in a prolonged blackout, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Bartlett) has said; people have become so accustomed to blacking out their houses that they are afraid to relax to some extent. There is some danger of our forgetting that, after all, this House is the place where Members should, speak their minds very freely, although I admit we have not got to the moment when we can be perfectly frank about everything. I would also say that Members should speak their minds, and not read their minds. One of the difficulties when a Member wants to speak on a very delicate question, such as the Polish question—about which I agree with the Prime Minister that at the present moment it is a difficult matter and the less said the better—is that he is so anxious not to drop a brick, that he writes his speech down and reads it all.
Mr. Cocks: It is worse when he reads other people's minds.
Commander King-Hall: Yes, that is even worse. I hope that the House will bear with me while I tell them what is in my mind on one particular point. But I have just remembered that I would like to support what my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater said about visits abroad, and to add this footnote. Members of Congress are permitted to move quite freely in France, and I think, it is important that British Members of Parliament should be allowed to go to France. Now for my main point. It has been the case for the last 500 years that world peace has been dependent on European peace. That will be true for the next 50 years at least. Europe is the critical spot of the world. We have a dual task. We have the short-range task of ensuring that the German nation cannot again disturb the peace of this critical area called Europe. That is the immediate and short-term task, but the long-range task, which we must not forget
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about, is of taking measures or preparing plans ultimately leading to a state of affairs in which no nation will be able, or, indeed, will wish, to disturb the peace of Europe. Therefore, I say that the task confronting our Government at the present day is to devise a policy which will satisfy these two requirements—that will satisfy the short-term requirements and yet will not be unsuitable for the longterm one. I think it is very important that it should be plainly stated that, when we are thinking of what we want to do for the short-term policy, we should not do anything which will become an obstacle to the long-term policy. To use an analogy, we must be careful not to put up a Portal house on a site which we shall want for a permanent residence, because we could not do anything while the Portal house is there.
I suggest that the long-term objective is not going to be solved very easily. Simple-minded people get the idea that once we have got the German State held down, that has solved the general peace problem. It is too easy to say that that is the reason for the existence of this phenomenon—of war—in human relationships. Let the House consider what would, in fact, happen if, by some fortunate miracle, Germans could be lifted out of this world and their country was left in the middle of Europe. It would he a highly. fruitful cause of international friction, as to who was to go into the area from which the Germans had disappeared.
We must beware of the temptation of sliding away from our difficulties by saying that, by solving the German short-term problem, we have solved the whole thing. German Nazism, Italian Fascism and Japanese militarism are all symptoms of a defect inherent in the present state of civilisation, and this defect is the ideological strength of national sovereignty in men's minds when it is applied to political and economic questions. The nationalistic spirit is quite admirable in cultural matters and cannot be too strongly encouraged. The hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Ivor Thomas) has pointed out one of the ways by which we have attained our present nationalisms in this island and yet manage to combine together in big questions, and that is that we have given free rein and freedom to all things of the spirit and the cultural attributes of three different races.

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I submit that, from a long-term point of view, this nationalistic spirit, in the field of politics and economics, must be rationalised and internationalised if civilisation is to survive. Bearing that in mind, I submit to the House that we must get peace in Europe as our first main objective, and you will not succeed in doing that unless you bring about, as a longterm objective, some form of European Federation, Union or Commonwealth. The House will not expect me to go into details. What I do wish to impress upon the House is that we must not pretend that that is impossible. It is ridiculous for any citizen at present a member of the British Commonwealth to say that it is impossible. It is ridiculous because we, in this Commonwealth, have given that freedom in unity to men of very different races, creeds and languages in all parts of the world. We are actually doing this thing and have been doing it in a remarkably successful manner, yet, when it is applied to Europe, certain faint-hearted people say it is impossible.
How shall we make a start? We must proclaim that it is our policy. I wish the British Government would say that their long-term policy is to see a united or federated form of Europe, and would work ceaselessly to bring our Allies to this point of view in so far as there are any objections to it. I could bring plenty of evidence to show that acceptance of the United Europe idea was considered possible by France and there is much evidence to show that France considered we were the obstacles to that kind of thing in the years between the wars. But that is not enough; we must take action. I go back to my short-term problem which we have in front of us, and the House will remember that I was trying to find an answer to the short-term problem of Germany which will not handicap us in moving on during many years to a solution of the long-term problem.
Here I come to the proposal to which I hope the Government will give serious consideration. I admit that it will sound rather novel, perhaps startling, but we should not be frightened of considering novel and startling things for peace, when we can achieve startling and novel things for D-Day. No great Power or little Power will voluntarily surrender its economic and political sovereignty. Germany has forfeited her political sove-
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reignty; she has done so on the battlefield and at the bar of history. She is not politically fitted and educated to use this political and economic sovereignty in a co-operative manner. In 1919, Germany forfeited her sovereignty, and a treaty was imposed on the German Government. I am not going into an argument whether it was possible to carry out that treaty. So far as all the reports published are concerned, there is not going to be a German Government this time There is going to be an Allied Government. It will be an international Government. I should like to say something about that fact and the fact that it does not seem to me to be a co-ordinated Government. The kind of administration to be set up reminds me of the coat of arms of the Isle of Man. But I have no time to develop that.
An Allied Government—that is an International Government—will follow on unconditional surrender. My proposal is this. I want it to be firmly declared that, for political and economic purposes, German citizens have lost German nationality, in the economic and political sense, and have acquired a new form of nationality—a new form of European nationality. Let the International Government of Germany be regarded, not as a temporary measure for five or 10 years, which will hand over to a fully sovereign German Government, but as the starting point which will develop, over a period of many years, into an all-European administrative body. By degrees, no doubt, German citizens will become associated with that international body, and at the same time, by degrees, a local democratic Government will grow up in Germany which will be the equivalent of other local Governments in Europe as federation takes shape. The armies of occupation will, gradually, become the European police force and the separate European Powers will gradually be merged into this all-European body.
I have done no more than point the general idea of the proposal, which I claim, when I ask the House to give it serious consideration, will satisfy all the requirements of the post-war needs of Europe against a renewal of German aggression, and thus will satisfy your short-term programme. But at the same time, it is a scheme which looks forward and leads into the permanent policy, which

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will provide the cure for the fundamental defect in Western civilization. It will also be using Germany as the laboratory in which to begin this great experiment, which, if it succeeded, would rank in world history in importance with the experiment of the British Commonwealth of Nations. It will give those Germans the opportunity of slowly working their passage back into a collection not of suspicious and possibly aggressive sovereign national States, but of working their way back into a common conception of a peaceful and united Europe, in which the abilities and energies of the German people will be harnessed to constructive elements and not to the destructive activities upon which they have been engaged twice in our lifetime.
6.51 p.m.
Mr. Hynd: The outstanding feature of the Prime Minister's discourse to-day will, I believe, be agreed to have been his references to the Free French Forces—the rising of the French people, not in the wake of the advancing Armies but in advance of the Allied Armies, which has contributed so tremendously to the success of the Allied Armies since this House went into Recess a few weeks ago. It is very striking, in view of the tenour of the Debate to-day, to note that fact and to remember that it is not many years ago that France, in relation to Great Britain, was in the same, or a similar, position to that in which Germany finds herself to-day. That throws a significant light upon the Debate. It is, incidentally, interesting to note that the Prime Minister waxed so enthusiastic about the great revolutionary uprising of the French people in the days of the Commune, which has been revived by the recent experience in Paris. That leads one to recall that on the last occasion when we had a discourse from the Prime Minister on the international situation, the bombshell which was dropped and resounded throughout the whole country was the phrase that:
"The war is becoming less and less ideological."
I would remind the House that the uprising of the French Forces of the Interior was accompanied to a considerable degree, I understand, by an uprising of Spanish Republicans who had been recently interned in French concentration camps, and I believe some also got over
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the frontier. That action, in relation to the less ideological development of the war, makes one think when one recollects that, on the other hand, we have had a very striking illustration of that ideological situation in the appearance of the Blue Division on the other side of France.
There has also been the very remarkable fact that no less important than the risings of the Free French people, the French partisans and the Forces of the Interior, has been the tremendous struggle that has been put up for many months by the Free Italian Forces in the North of Italy alongside the Allies. It is difficult to appreciate precisely on what grounds it is suggested that the war is becoming less and less ideological unless it is in the appreciation of the war and its implication in certain quarters in Government circles in this country. The Prime Minister made one very useful and very valuable observation in that connection when he drew attention to the fact that during the time of the German occupation of France these Free French Forces of the Interior had largely though not entirely—because we have evidence of their operations—a hypothetical factor. We had tremendous faith in the spirit of the French people but it was not until the opportunity was permitted them that they were able to rise in full strength and drive the invader from their country. The question which most immediately rises in my mind is why if that were the case in France and Italy it should not also be the case in Germany.
I do not want to go over all the ground covered so often in regard to this controversy about whether there are or are not good Germans or, if there are, how many there are and so on. It is highly desirable at this time that this question should be removed from the academic domain and be dealt with as a really urgent practical proposition because of the fact that we are already entering into Germany and have to face the situation on some basis or other. In spite of what the Prime Minister has said and the warning given to us not to be led away by wild rumours from the American Press or other quarters, the fact remains that this issue is being discussed by our Government. This country is being committed, up to a certain point at least, on this particular question. We may be permitted to discuss the question later on but we have already been committed to certain ideas in the discussions which are

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now coming on. Rumours and more rumours have been brought to our notice. Statements have been made in the Press. Interviews have already taken place between Press representatives and very high representatives of the American Government in this connection and it is very clear to the minds of some people that certain fairly clearly defined propositions have been put forward by important and influential sections in the American Government circles. It behoves the House to make itself as clear as possible on precisely what is going on.
There was an incident which occurred a few days ago when certain photographs appeared in the Press showing American soldiers fraternising with German people in some of the German towns and Members of this House have deplored these pictures. They were withdrawn on the instructions of the American authorities. There have been several expressions in the newspapers deploring this fraternisation but as was indicated by a speaker in the House to-day it is quite a natural thing. The point is that if it is natural for American or British soldiers to fraternise with German people as they enter Germany even in the midst of battle, what is likely to be the position in five or ten years' time? If, as I think is obvious, after the passage of time that tolerance for which the British people are so famous or even that natural impulse already referred to has gained the upper hand, I am wondering what will happen when we have withdrawn our occupation troops from Germany. Having vented our spleen on the German people for the evils that have been imposed on us and the whole world for the last five years, what is going to be the reaction among the less responsible elements in the German nation? That is one of the important factors that people who advocate the prolonged occupation and repression of Germany will have to face very definitely. If this fraternisation, even now or later on, is a natural thing, and therefore an inevitable thing, unless steps are taken to counter it, I am wondering what alternative policy we are going to follow if we pursue this hard peace policy after the war.
If we are to pursue a policy of retribution, reparation, destruction of German industry, German mines and the breaking
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up of Germany into separate States and so on, we have obviously to counteract this natural tendency amongst the ordinary people to fraternise with the German people. I do not see how we are going to do that unless we deal with our churches, because in our churches Sunday after Sunday we are preaching precisely the opposite doctrine. I am wondering whether the intention is that during this period of occupation, which I understand from responsible statesmen in this country may take two or three generations, we should close down our churches altogether or that we should at the very least ban the teaching of the New Testament and allow only the more bellicose teachings of the Old Testament as a basis of our social philosophy. We have to decide because, whether we like it or not, we are going to deal with the German people. Whether we like it or not, when we occupy any considerable portions of Germany, we are going to co-operate with the German people. We have found it already, inevitably, in the first two or three villages we have occupied in Germany. We must inevitably find that we will have to utilise the services of the German police forces. We shall have to find local Germans who can be regarded as sufficiently reliable to undertake local administration. We shall find it completely impossible to provide thousands of German-speaking teachers capable of running the new educational scheme in Germany when we cannot even run our own educational scheme here.
Sir Edward Grigg: Will the hon. Gentleman forgive me for interrupting? He seems to forget that we, are only one of a good many united nations, and that the future of Germany is of as much interest to them as to us. After all we have to consult the Russians, the French, the Dutch, the Belgians, and indeed, the Jews on this matter.
Mr. Hynd: Exactly, but whatever may be proposed there is the illustration I have just given of the teachers. I understand we have already had to suspend our own Education Act for 12 months because we cannot find enough teachers for our own schools, and I do not see where we are to get sufficient German-speaking teachers to take over the management of the German schools. If we consult our Allies, however, some of those who pursue

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this policy of vindictiveness and retribution are going to have a very sad shock because the Prime Minister himself has to-day paid tribute to the tolerance—I do not think that was his exact expression—but the magnanimity, or some such expression, which has been exhibited by the Russians in the countries they have already occupied. I think it will be accepted that the driving force in the new provisional French Government at the moment is a force of the Left in politics—largely the Socialists, Communists and Left-Catholic elements. I have here a copy of the statement of policy issued by the French Socialist Party in respect of this particular question. It emphasises especially the ideological nature of the present war and will never agree to a peace of revenge being inflicted on the German people who have been oppressed by Hitler and the Nazis. It proceeds to recite a policy for the suppression of the German Junker class, nationalisation of heavy industry and so on, and says:
"These reforms…can only be successfully carried out with the close and fraternal collaboration of the German democrats."
That will show my hon. Friend that we are not likely to get very much further in the line which I presume he advocates by relying upon the French or the Russians. But if we are, I submit that we must inevitably find Germans who are reliable and trustworthy as democrats for building the foundations of a democratic German State, and we have to find them pretty quickly. The hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) waxed very eloquent in asking if there are any good Germans; if there are any reliable democrats in Germany, where are they, what have they been doing, why do not they announce themselves? The answer to that is, where were the French Forces of the Interior before the rising? Where are the Spanish Republicans at the moment? Is the fact that they are not very vociferous or very active to be taken as evidence that the whole of the Spanish people are behind the present regime? Where were the Italian partisans during the last 20 years who are playing such a tremendous part in the fighting in Italy and the resistance in Northern Italy? Where was the Russian Revolution up to 1918?
Mr. Mander: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting—I hope it is true—that the Germans are working underground for the
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cause of the United Nations and will step in at the right moment?
Mr. Hynd: I am suggesting that there was a tremendous amount of wisdom and realism in the statement of the Prime Minister that in these conditions under which the German people are living at the moment, the ordinary, simple man is in an impossible position to demonstrate himself in any way, and I am submitting also that the historical fact is that into whatever country you may penetrate you will find forces which will be prepared to support democratic armies for the overthrow of any tyrant that may have arisen in their country. It has been demonstrated throughout history. I do not think for a moment that any hon. Member in his heart really believes that the attributes of democracy, of social decency, of courage and determination to struggle for freedom, are the attributes of any particular race or any particular country or any particular climate. The recital by the Prime Minister of the achievements of the Allied Armies during this war is sufficient evidence that these virtues are not the virtues of the British people particularly; they are to be found in the Indians, in the natives of our darkest Colonies, in the Chinese, in the Italian partisans and the French F.F.I., in Norway, Sweden and elsewhere, in every race, in every country, and in every climate. Any hon. Member who does not understand that is very much lacking in some of the basic requirements of a legislator of a country of this kind.
I want to mention one other point in regard to the report we have had about the American discussions. It is suggested, I believe, that one of the essential steps that must be taken in order to destroy the German capacity for war in the future is the destruction of the German heavy industries. The demand that I saw quoted in one of the responsible newspapers of this country was for the destruction of German heavy industry and the closing of the mines. Does anybody really put that forward as a serious proposition? We are very fond in Parliamentary circles—in Government circles in particular—of using high-sounding phrases about our ideals and about our principles. We go to our U.N.R.R.A. and I.L.O. Conferences, to Bretton Woods and others, and we make declarations in the most high-sounding phrases about our objectives, about our intentions in regard

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to this or that. One could quote many of these declarations which would seem to suggest that there is no question at all in any responsible political circles, either in America or in this country, about the inevitability—if we are to build any international peace structure—of collaboration between all nations, the establishment of social security, a high standard of living and full employment in all nations, the abolition of poverty and want in all nations. The I.L.O. Philadelphia Declaration states, and has the signature of our representatives, that poverty anywhere constitutes a danger to prosperity everywhere. The organisation arising from the Hot Springs Conference, the Food and Agricultural Organisation, says:
"As the name implies, it is a union of nations working together to meet the needs of mankind for the products of the soil and the sea for food, clothing, shelter and a decent livelihood."
It goes on to say that these fundamentals:
"Make for lasting peace among the nations fully as much as any political arrangements that can be devised…"
In the Government's Employment Policy White Paper it is declared that social security can only be Obtained if we can be assured of full employment. That applies to the centre of Europe just as much as it applies here. We are assured again in the strongest terms that peace depends on social security and a decent standard of living for all people.
Do we mean these things, or do we not? If we mean them we must mean that just as the existence of sweated labour or the existence of poverty in any part of the world including our own country may be a menace to international peace so, equally, must the existence of a poverty area in the centre of Europe. I suggest that rather than close the pits and destroy the heavy industries of Germany we must utilise them for the purpose of producing the maximum amount of goods for the consumption of the peoples of the world, and in order that we can raise the general standard of living. The German railways, heavy industries and mines are an invaluable asset towards that tremendous task which will face the United Nations and peoples of the world in rebuilding devastated Europe after this war. To destroy them would be as great a folly as the folly of
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pre-war days which we have since so often denounced so roundly, namely, the destruction of the food supplies of the world in order to maintain prices and the powers of monopolies.
I would have liked to deal with other questions, but other speakers want to take part in the Debate to-night and I will refer only to a definite and clear statement—which I welcome—made by the Prime Minister, which has been the best answer to the closing observations made by the hon. and gallant Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby), who said he hoped that there would, be no sloppy internationalism mixed up with the future security arrangements of the world. That struck me as a strange contradiction of his previous assurance, that he considered international peace and security in the future would depend upon the closest possible friendship between America, Britain and Russia. A reply was given by the Prime Minister in a letter, published recently, which he wrote to Lord Cecil, when he declared that the League idea would live. The Prime Minister has underlined that statement on several occasions in this House. If that is to be the spirit behind the present discussions at Dumbarton Oaks, and is to be interpreted in the decisions that will follow that Conference, I can assure the House that a very warm welcome will be given to them from every Member on this side. I deplore what has been said on the other side, that while the idea of the League may be good it is not the time now to think in terms of a new League of Nations. It was suggested that we would have to establish some kind of temporary security organisation, but that it was not desirable for a considerable time to get down to the details of any permanent peace structure. I recall now that it was the Prime Minister who said this. I suggest that that is taking the question right out of the sphere of reality. If we are not in a position to build this permanent peace structure now, and work out the details and the whole of the implications and requirements of such a structure, we shall miss the boat. Time, on this issue, is riot on our side.
I would remind the House again that in spite of the final failure of the League of Nations that League, established in 1919, without any precedent or previous experience, and a tremendously bold experiment- open to all kinds of mistakes

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and errors, was, nevertheless, successful in driving Mussolini's forces from Corfu and was responsible for suppressing war after war on the European Continent. It did have tremendous successes in spite of the difficulties under which it was launched. If, as a result of another war, if, following on the experience of some 25 years of the work of the League of Nations, with all its faults and potentialities, we have not the courage to endeavour to establish a permanent and effective organisation, I suggest that we are never likely again to have such a remarkable opportunity as we have at the present time. I hope the Government will be bolder than the observation of the Prime Minister suggests, and will follow rather the line he took in his letter to Lord Cecil, namely, that the League idea, given the necessary support, encouragement and confidence of the members who will participate in its work, will live. That is the only hope for the maintenance of international peace in the future.
7.17 p.m.
Mr. Quintin Hogg: I hope the hon. Member who has just addressed the House will forgive me if I do not follow him in the fluent and exhaustive argument which he has addressed to us. I believe that to some extent, at any rate, he was engaged in demolishing a case in which no serious person really believes. I have the misfortune to differ from some of my hon. Friends on the Conservative side in what they have been saying this afternoon and, having that misfortune, I feel that one or two things ought to be said to put in perspective what the attitude of this country should be towards the Soviet Union. I do not believe I shall be accused of being an advocate for Russia. Nothing in my upbringing or political or religious outlook could lead me to such a course, but I think the eloquent arid sincere speeches to which we have listened to-day—in particular from my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) and my Noble Friend the Member for Lanark (Lord Dunglass)—violated almost every canon of British foreign policy over the last 300 years. I doubt not that my hon. Friends are sincere when they believe that in giving vent to utterances of those kinds they are inspired by impartial, alert and Christian consciences and are not in any way prejudiced by their
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domestic political views. I should be more at ease on that subject were I able to reflect that their political views had been other than extremely hostile to the Soviet Union over a large number of years.
It is to my mind—and here I can claim that I have been completely consistent in opposition to both Left and Right speakers—utterly a mistake to think that you can govern the foreign policy of this country by reference to political or religious prejudices. We have been reminded that this is an ideological war. There have been ideological wars before but never, so far as I know, have our fathers, in their wisdom, pedantically followed a domestic, political or even religious bias in determining their attitude to foreign Powers. Under the Czarist régime the absolutist character of that monarchy proved no bar to Liberal and Conservative Administrations finding an Ally in the last war, nor should the Communist nature of the present Russian régime prevent all parties from finding an active Ally in this war. Nor does it appear to me that the religious argument will really bear examination. In the days when the Christian Czars sat on the throne of Russia it was the settled foreign policy of this country to support the Mohammedan Sultans against Russian encroachments even on the Christian Balkans. Religious and political prejudice are bad guides. I believe we should be well advised to remember that our fathers, even when they were a Protestant minority fighting against the great Catholic monarchies of Europe, allied themselves consistently with the Catholic Empire and proved themselves constantly at variance with the Protestant Dutch. We must find other tests for British foreign policy than domestic, political or even religious prejudice, and I suggest that we must observe certain canons which have been laid down for a very long time. One of those is that which was recently pronounced by Walter Lipmann, to which he drew the attention of his own compatriots. Power and commitments must be balanced with one another. There are limitations imposed upon British foreign policy alike by our geographical position and by our military resources. To go outside those limitations is not to put forward enlightened, independent, Christian, or moral views. It is to pursue a policy of political, military and moral bankruptcy and that, it seems to

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me, is the danger into which my hon. Friends are falling. I differ from them entirely and I differ from some hon. Members opposite in the degree to which they seem to me to underestimate the danger of the German problem in the years after the signature of peace. That problem will not be obliterated by the signature of any peace, however moderate or however extreme.
Some hon. Members have been very much afraid that the extremity of our measures might make the Germans bitter. They can reassure themselves on that point. The Germans are bitter. They have been at war with us for five years and the mere process of military defeat and the humiliation of occupation will be sufficient to embitter them to such an extent as to determine them to embark at any opportunity we may afford them on a war of revenge. That is the German problem in our time, and to start ignoring it is, to my mind, to ignore the ultimate factor in British foreign politics. Hon. Members on this side have devised ingenious schemes which they believe will keep the Germans down, schemes of partition, schemes of reparation, schemes of punishment. I agree that there is much to be commended in some of these documents, but it must be remembered that a peace that is dictated as the result of a victorious war will remain in force only so long as the victors remain united to enforce it. That peace will break, whatever its terms, the moment anyone succeeds in driving a wedge between ourselves and Russia.
That brings me to the point at which I differ from my hon. Friend. I do not believe that Members of the House are the judges of all the moral and political issues which divide the world, but I believe that this country would be well advised to pursue, in accordance with its power and with its conscience, a policy which is honourable in itself without necessarily condemning those with whom we are not always in complete agreement and a policy which we can, in fact, enforce by the resources at our command. That brings me to the question of Poland. I hope I shall not be thought to utter a word of criticism of the Poles. Even if I disagreed with them I should regard it as an impertinence in a Member of this House, a. British subject, who has not
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suffered anything comparable to what the least of these Poles has suffered, to utter a word of criticism of anything that they may have done. On the contrary, we should constantly remember our debt of gratitude to them, how in the hour of calamity they were a constant source of inspiration, their fidelity as Allies, their bravery as soldiers and their loyalty as comrades. We should seek to assert again and again that it is our purpose and our hope to restore a free and independent Poland wihch may one day, we trust, enjoy the prosperity which we so much desire for them and which we believe they so much deserve.
But if the events of the last five years have meant anything they mean that neither we nor any other Power in the world can enable the Poles to afford to antagonise both Germany and Russia at the same time. Nothing can save them if that is the result, however innocent, of their foreign policy. We should not be able to assist them even if it were consistent with our own independence and freedom to do so. To their eternal honour be it said that never during the whole of these difficult times has there been the slightest evidence that their differences with Russia have driven them to the slightest degree of collusion with our common enemy, Germany. But it must be said, surely, that if we were to let them believe that we were able to do that which our geographical position, the political framework in which we have to live and our military resources alike render impossible, we should, in fact, be committing that very dishonourable action of pretending that we were going to achieve for our friends more, in fact, than we were either disposed or able to do.
It is, I think, well to refer for a moment to the rather partial account which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Epsom gave to the House of the events in Warsaw. I have only followed the reports in the Press. He did not mention what appeared to be at any rate relevant and important facts. The Soviet Armies had advanced for upwards of 300 miles. They must have almost entirely outrun their communications; their forward troops must have been in a state of considerable exhaustion. I do not know and I should not attempt to resolve any issues of fact as to whether the Polish insurrection in Warsaw was opened with

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or without consultation with Russia. That appears to be immaterial. What is certain is that immediately after the insurrection began the Germans staged a counter-attack which, for the time being, drove the Russians back across the Vistula and undoubtedly gave them a military setback. There were malicious people here and people who were carried away by feelings with which one could only sympathise deeply who believed and allowed it to he said that the Russians did not give the Poles assistance because they desired the insurrection to fail. I do not believe that kind of slander. I can remember that for three years we were in the miserable position of not being able to invade the Continent at the very time that we saw the Russian Armies bleeding. I can remember how very strongly I resented the suggestion, from whatsoever source it came, from Russia or from this country, that we were doing this deliberately in order that our gallant Ally might suffer in the East. I think if we owe the Russians nothing else in this war it is to put the most favourable construction we can on anything they may do, and even if it were not a debt of honour by which we are bound by the terms of our Treaty of Alliance with them, I believe it would be the merest policy based upon the political framework to which I have referred.
If Russia and America quarrel there can be no possible bar to the re-emergence of Japan in the Far East as a menace to them both. If Russia and Great Britain quarrel there can be no possible step which will prevent the re-emergence of Germany in Europe as a menace to both Poland and the rest of Europe. That is the rock upon which we must build our foreign policy. It is a very difficult thing for a popular Assembly to carry on this tripartite nuclear alliance to which these considerations inevitably lead us. We shall be accused of truckling to America and bowing the knee to Russia, of appeasement and of doing the things which no honourable man would do. All these criticisms will be made of us if we refrain from what is called plain speaking, which usually consists in public insults and recriminations by people who had much better have remained silent.
There are three great Powers which will emerge from this war. I do not desire to suggest that the smaller Powers ought not to bear their full part in the post-war
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settlement when it comes, but I speak now of the three great Powers. It would be odious to compare the sacrifices which each has made, but each has made an individual, an incomparable and an inestimable sacrifice for victory. We need not under-estimate our own. We were in it from the first, as we shall be in it even unto the bitter end. But for us neither Stalingrad would have held nor would America after Pearl Harbour have found a single friend to whom she could turn. We need not under-estimate our own sacrifice, nor must we under-estimate theirs. But what makes the sacrifice more poignant is the knowledge which exists in most men in our three great countries that, if we had but known the course events were going to take, the calamity that has come upon us could easily have been avoided. I do not speak at length of the mistakes we have made individually or together, but who can suppose that, if the Americans had known in 1919 that Pearl Harbour was coming when Pearl Harbour came, they would have avoided collaboration with the rest of the world for so long at so great a price? If the Russians had known of the violation of the Russian frontier in 1941, would they have pursued the policy that began at Rapallo in 1923 and went on through a series of pitiful recriminations and mutual distrust for 25 years, until the two countries, ourselves and they, who had said so many hard words to one another, had to pay in blood for the mistakes which each of us had made? Can anyone doubt that we too could have avoided the calamity?
Are we to learn that lesson now, or are we to ignore it? Are we to be told that for one good reason or another the basis of collaboration which exists between us should give place to what is called plain speaking, which will inevitably mean the destruction of the mutual trust that is only with difficulty and stage by stage growing up? Can we not make our representations in private if we disagree? Must we proclaim it on the housetops if we have something to condemn in others? Or can we hope that wisdom and forbearance, those qualities that are the qualities of strength and not the qualities of weakness, will prevail in our councils, and that, although Great Britain will remain, as I pray God she will, the champion of small nations, she will at the same time remain

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in friendship and collaboration with those great forces in whose power alone it is placed with us to give the future of mankind a prosperous and peaceful life in the coming generations?
7.35 P.m.
Mr. Cocks: I was very glad to hear the very moving and wise speech of the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg), in which he insisted upon the very great importance of maintaining the closest and the most friendly relations between ourselves and the Soviet Union. I was going to touch upon that point myself, but I think it is very much better that it should come from his side of the House, in view of the one or two speeches that have been made from those benches this afternoon. The Prime Minister appealed to us to refrain from intemperate language during this Debate, particularly in reference to the question of Poland. I propose to follow that advice myself, bearing in mind that it is not absolutely necessary for an ordinary Member of Parliament to speak as though he were the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whose lightest word may convey infinite meanings to all the Chancelleries of Europe. We, speaking as ordinary Members of Parliament, have a little latitude, of which privilege I propose to avail myself as well.
In considering this Polish question, there is one thing we should first remember, and that is the extreme moderation of Soviet policy. The Prime Minister has told us to-day how moderate and correct they have been in their armistice terms to Rumania and the neighbouring States. In spite of what the Vatican or General Franco seem to think, I do not believe that Marshal Stalin has the least desire to impose the Soviet economic system upon the neighbouring States. I do not believe he has the least intention of doing so. I do not believe that Russia desires more than safe frontiers and friendly neighbours. To those she is entitled, as the Prime Minister told us, and in that light the Polish situation must be regarded.
The history of the relations between the Polish Government in London, the Soviet Union and the Polish National Council of Liberation is long and complicated. I have given it some little study, and, as
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Lord Simon used to say in this House, I think I have some grasp of it, complex though it is. I do not propose, however, to inflict that information upon this House to-night, but I think it is absurd for the hon. and gallant Member for Wirral (Captain Graham) to say, as he did, that the National Council of Poland, sitting in Lublin, or the Committee of Polish Liberation which is associated with it, are completely unrepresentative of the Polish people. If it were so, the Polish Prime Minister in London would not have entered into negotiations with it in Moscow, nor would the Polish Government in London have offered or suggested that members of that National Council should be associated with them in the proposed new Government to be set up in Warsaw after its liberation. They would not make any proposal of that kind to a Government or organisation which was entirely unrepresentative. It is also absurd for the hon. and gallant Member to suggest that General Zymierski, who is commanding a strong Polish Army in the field at the present time, has no support at all from the Poles who live in the liberated areas of Poland. There is no doubt there is a good deal of support for this organisation in the Eastern regions of Poland, whatever they may find in the West. If argument is based on these assumptions that the Polish National Council and Committee are not representative, it would make the resumption of friendly relations between the Polish Government and Soviet Russia and the National Council very difficult, even impossible.
I do not deny there have been faults and mistakes on both sides. But what country in the world can say that during the last 20 or 30 years they have been free from error? The fact must be faced that there are certain elements associated with, or surrounding, the Polish Government in London which are violently hostile to the Soviet Government. There may be historical reasons as well as social reasons for this, but the fact remains that these elements do exist, and they are at the present time centring round the personality of the Commander-in-Chief, General Sosnkowski, whose intemperate utterances recently have created great difficulties in the diplomatic field. The general attitude of General Sosnkowski was shown when the late General Sikorski entered into friendly relations with the Soviet Government.

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General Sosnkowski resigned from his position at that time as a protest against the action of General Sikorski. The position of the Commander-in-Chief of the Polish Army is a peculiar one. Under the Constitution of 1935, which was more or less, I would say, of a Fascist nature, the Commander-in-Chief of the Polish Army is appointed personally by the President of Poland.
The Cabinet, the Government, have no control whatever over the appointment, and they have no control over his actions. For example, the Commander-in-Chief can send, as he has done, public messages and secret messages to Warsaw without either consulting the Polish Cabinet in London or even without that Cabinet's knowledge. As a result the Polish Government here have asked General Sosnkowski to resign. He has refused to do so. That being the position they, by unanimous resolution last week, asked the President, who is the only person who has the power, to dismiss the Commander-in-Chief. Up to now no action has been taken by the President, who happens to be anyhow his close personal friend. It seems to me there is no chance of any improved relations between the Polish Government in London and the Polish Committee in Lublin or the Soviet Union as long as he remains in that position. General Sosnkowski has got to go. There are many other difficulties which will have to be solved even then, many difficulties and many complexities, but this is the first step which must be taken if better relations are to be established. That is all I intend to say to-night about the Polish situation at the present time.
We all welcome the warm and moving reference of the Prime Minister to the position of France. I feel the time is coming when the Allies ought to grant full recognition to the Provisional Government of France as the actual Government of France, and give her the position to which she would then be entitled upon the European Advisory Commission and other Councils of the Allies. It is said, of course, that the present French Government has never been formally elected by a ballot. But there are Governments which we recognise—the Polish Government, of which I have just been speaking, the Yugoslav Government, and the Greek Government—who have never been elected either. It seems to me slightly
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absurd that we should give full recognition to those three Governments and yet refrain from giving the same recognition to our great French Ally, whose popularity in France itself cannot be doubted by anybody who has been there.
A French correspondent of mine, who has written to me many times during this war, and who happens to be a great personal friend of M. Herriot, wrote to me the other day, "This Government has not been elected by pieces of paper; it has been elected by the blood of the patriots." Then he used what seemed to me a very striking phrase. "My catechism taught me that one can become a Christian by dying for Christ, even if one has never been baptised." With all deference to the Government of the United States of America, I would say that France is an adult political nation. From the soil of France had sprung a long line of saints and sages, warriors and statesmen, centuries before the creative genius that broods over Lake Michigan ever conceived the notion of spam. I think we can tell Washington that she need not fear that France requires any tuition in democracy. She has the light of liberty in her eyes and freedom in her soul—the soul of France. Let her take her rightful place, as soon as can possibly be arranged, as our equal in the councils of Europe and of the world.
I would like to support strongly the counsel of the Prime Minister that we should not allow ourselves to be hurried into decisions about the world-organisation which is to carry on after the war. Nor do I think there is any great need for hurry. I assume that Germany will be occupied for a considerable period. I assume that the occupation of Germany by the Allies might take as long as five years. I do not know what is in the minds of the Allies, but that is a period that I have always assumed. I assume, therefore, that a considerable time may elapse between the armistice and the drawing-up of the actual peace terms. I think it would be wise to allow a considerable interval. During the period between the armistice and the peace settlement, the lines of the future peace settlement will be drawn up, and the future of Western Europe decided for perhaps half a century. Look at the stupendous work, for example, that will have to be done directly Germany is occupied. There will be 20,000,000 or 30,000,000 men and

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women, who will have to be sent back to their own countries, where their homes probably will have been destroyed and will have to be replaced. Added to that, there will be 300,000,000 people in Europe, who wilt have to be fed, clothed, and restored to their civil occupations.
It is a gigantic task, but I believe the resources of modern science and industry are so great that the task can be accomplished successfully. I hope that, during this period, when all this is being done, we shall be acting in close co-operation with the popular democratic forces which are emerging now in every country—France, Italy, Yugoslavia and Greece—and I hope it will be realised that, in order to establish again those 300,000,000 people in Western Europe, they will have to be drawn together and sustained on economic lines. I hope these 20 or so absurd tariff walls, which were swept away by Hitler—one of the few good results that can be attributed to his policy—shall not be rebuilt. Industries should be developed on natural instead of national lines, and as far as possible I hope that Western Europe shall be a Europe with one tariff and one postal system, and, I should hope, one banking and currency system. I hope that is not impossible. The most difficult thing is currency, but it could be a most admirable thing. I hope this Europe will have the same system of communications, cutting across frontiers and soaring above them so that the frontiers of Europe in the future should be of the nature of boundaries of administration, like our county boundaries, rather than frontiers bristling with bayonets, dividing one country from another.
I also hope, of course, that Western Europe will be based on a Socialist economy. I believe it will be, but, whether it is or not, we should do our best to develop again in Europe that unity which it once possessed, which was destroyed when the Roman Empire was broken, and which must be created again, in my view, if Western Europe is to attain to her full stature and take her place as a partner in equal strength with Russia, China, the United States and the British Commonwealth in that new world now in process of being born.
Captain Plugge: It is very difficult, after listening to a speech so
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comprehensive as the one we heard from the Prime Minister to-day, followed by such an interesting Debate, not to embark on a discussion of the many points that arise on such an occasion. As I do not wish to detain the House for any length of time, I want to limit myself to one subject only. Before coming to that aspect, I would say that there are many other subjects to which I should have liked to refer, and I mention particularly that of Poland and Russia. I do not think we could have had the case regarding Poland and Russia better put than was done by the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Quintin Hogg) just now. To embark upon a subject which has been so thoroughly dealt with, as this has been by the hon. Member, is quite unnecessary.
While listening to the Prime Minister, I could not help feeling how very regrettable it was his speech was not broadcast on this occasion. Two years ago, I made the suggestion in this House to the Prime Minister that, occasionally, his speeches in this House should be broadcast. In reply he fully agreed, and a Motion to that effect was, in fact, put on the Order Paper for Debate on the following day. But, in view of pressure brought about by back benchers, the Motion was withdrawn by the Prime Minister himself. I could not help feeling, as I saw the Prime Minister speaking to-day, that he was rather like a soldier—for he is a soldier—but as a soldier deprived of one of the most modern weapons available to similar soldiers of other United Nations in a like position. There was the Prime Minister, speaking with the power of one man and yet, without any cost to ourselves in money, energy, or trouble, 600 broadcasting stations in America would have carried that speech. The speech which he made, instead of being a one manpower speech, would have been something like 100,000 horse-power. It could have been brought to the homes of people all over the world. Recently, in the House during Question time, many questions had been asked about our position in relation to the Americans, the relative value of our effort, and the general ignorance throughout America of that effort. The Prime Minister whilst delivering his speech was deprived by this House of the only method of reaching directly across the world by means of the most up-to-date and far reaching method

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of dissemination of news. Newspapers are made up to-day, more than half, of material they have heard on the air. This is a new weapon which, in this House and in this case, corresponds to the tank and aeroplane in the campaign. But the Prime Minister was deprived of that powerful weapon by means of which what he said could have been brought to tens of millions of homes. The occupants of those homes could have heard every word that was said, instead of extracts according to the paper available and the whim of editors.
The point I specially want to mention to the House now is the subject of the treatment of Germany after the war. The Prime Minister referred to the Dumbarton Oaks Conference, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks) said, there is no great hurry to take decisions. I am entirely in agreement with him but looking back into the last war—and I spent over a year in Germany on the Disarmament Commission—I would say that the moment Germany is disarmed and we have occupied it, there will be a tendency to withdraw our troops because of the cost of occupation and the non-necessity of English troops being kept away from home. What has been much discussed at the Dumbarton Oaks Conference is the series of old methods comprising an International Air Force, the occupation of territory by various United Nations, dismemberment, abolishment of heavy industry, and a League of Nations in modified form. What I am proposing after the disarmament of Germany and an occupation for a certain number of years, is a method which would be one step ahead of the International Air Force which would have to come into action and punish Germany after the breaking of any clause of a treaty. My suggested method could be thus defined. It is the granting by Germany to the United Nations of the exclusive concession of their means of transport and communications.
If the methods of transport and of communications were granted by Germany as a concession to the United Nations, we would be one step ahead of the International Air Force. My method would mean that, without the control of transport and communications, Germany could do nothing to create a hostile force.
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The United Nations would know at once what was happening and, therefore, there would be ample warning to take what steps were necessary before even a nucleus could be formed. In the granting of concessions of all means of transport and communications, I include shipping, airways, motorways, waterways, telephones, telegraph, postal services, newspapers, broadcasting stations and the like. There is no reason why these methods of transport and communication should not be operated by nationals, and by operational companies of the United Nations. We are a very tolerant nation and after the occupation of Germany for four or five years we would be so tolerant as to want to withdraw. To occupy and operate these means of transport and communications would not, in any way, be a hardship to Germany. When a man commits murder he does it in, say, half an hour, but it takes many years to pay for his crime. We do not punish Germany in intensity but we punish them in duration, in length of time. My suggestion is that these commercial concessions would be, roughly, for three generations or a century.
Mr. Hugh Lawson: What would happen after that?
Captain Plugge: I will come to that in a moment. It would, as I said, be no hardship to Germany. May I ask hon. Members why Spain and Rumania have much better telephone systems than we have in this country? Because they have both granted the concession of their telephones to the American Tel and Tel. They enjoy a much better telephone service than anyone else in Europe. That is what we should apply to Germany. There could be no complaint. Take the South American States. They have granted the concession of their airways to the Pan-American Airways of New York. The result is that all South Americans enjoy a very efficient air communication service. There is no hardship here and the U.S.A. derive revenue from the concession.
It being Eight of the Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Pym.]
8.1 p.m.
Captain Plugge: As I have mentioned, the countries in South America have granted the concession of all their airways to Pan-American Airways—the South American countries all have their airways run by this very efficient company. In the same way, if in Germany these telephones, telegraphs, airways and railways services were run by private companies or by the Governments of the United Nations, Germany would have very good systems and nothing to complain about, and it would be a way of getting a grip on Germany by means of which no other war such as this would ever start again. It would do more. It would also permit us to acquire sufficient money to pay reparations for this war. We often talk about reparations and we do not insist upon them, because we know that you cannot make nations pay during short periods sums large enough to cover the cost and waste of a war such as this because it upsets the economic balance of the world. However, over a lengthy period of time it is possible to be indemnified completely. There is no better payment from one country to another than the grant to them of the exclusive concession of the working of some of their important enterprises.
Parallel to this period of 100 years concessions we should naturally have to enforce some system for educating the youth of Germany. I said three generations, because when I was in Berlin after the last war, I heard the rising generation preach freely that they intended to wage a new war within 20 years. So education could cover this period and, as my hon. Friend who interrupted me, but who has just left said, then will be the time for Germany to reap her benefits of the Atlantic Charter. May I point out that the Atlantic Charter does not have any measure or indication of time; there is no reference in it to the fourth dimension? It is said that everybody will be freed from want and fear, but it does not say when each individual nation will be allowed to reap these benefits. Therefore, it is not necessary to give the Axis countries the liberty of the Atlantic Charter, until they have shown that they are deserving of receiving it. I put this at three generations or one hundred years.
That is the proposition I would like to put to the House as a method by means
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of which we shall ensure peace for all times. I would like this to be drawn to the attention of the Dumbarton Oaks Conference that, after the occupation of Germany, the first thing should be the granting to the United Nations of the concessions of all the means of transport and communication within the Reich. No German flag need fly the oceans or the skies. Goods can be carried in United Nations ships. In closing I would like to say that this is not an unusual thing because Monte Carlo—which many people think is an independent State—has already granted its concessions for telephones and telegraphs to France, and only French subjects are allowed to be employed in the telegraph and telephone services in Monte Carlo. We could apply that to Germany, and if all their telegraphs, telephones and methods of transport and of communication were operated and run by companies of the United Nations, we would have warning far ahead of anything that might happen and at the same time in addition to the payment of reparations in full be able to provide a very large amount of employment for all our soldiers and sailors and airmen who return victoriously after the successful conclusion of this war.
8.4 p.m.
Mr. Driberg: My excuse for endeavouring to speak to-day is that as recently as last Sunday I was with our troops North of Eindhoven towards the district from which, this morning, came that very poignant and grievous and also splendid message about Arnhem. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Bartlett) said, I went there in the guise of a war correspondent, a rôle of which I am not in the least ashamed—especially recalling that no less a statesman than the Prime Minister himself, in his earlier days, was a war correspondent also. Like the Prime Minister, I, in my brief and humble visit to our Forces overseas, was impressed above all things by the extraordinary mobility of this war and of the forces engaged in it. The movement, the transport, has been handled with astonishing skill. At one cross-roads in Normandy alone, a check of traffic that passed at that point was taken, and it was found that, in a period of 24 hours, no fewer than 19,000 vehicles went by. That is just one small illustration of the tremendous volume of

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traffic and movement that is going on all the time. The problem of supplying the front line has been Gargantuan and has been handled, equally, with immense skill—this front line which has swept forward with such astonishing rapidity in such a very short time. Second only to the tremendous admiration with which I have come back for the fighting men themselves—and in particular, perhaps, for the infantry and tank crews of the Guards Armoured Division—is my admiration for the movement and transport people, and for the Royal Engineers who have built with amazing speed the pontoon bridges across those difficult canals which have inevitably, among other factors, made our advance in Holland less rapid than that tremendous sweep up to Brussels.
I was glad to hear what the Prime Minister had to say about Belgium, and about the welcome the Belgian people have given our Forces and the Americans. It was, indeed, stupendous—perhaps even warmer than the welcome we received in France. In one city alone, the city of Liége, in which I spent two or three nights, I think there will always be the strongest links of friendship between the citizens and ourselves: that one city sheltered no fewer than 700 Allied airmen during the German occupation—airmen who had baled out on being shot down. That is a remarkable record for one place. When the full inside story of these operations can be written, I believe that one of the most dramatic and extraordinary chapters in it will be the story of the thousands of Allied airmen who descended, either by parachute on special missions, or because their aircraft were shot down, in enemy-occupied territory in France, Belgium and Holland, and the way in which the ordinary people of those countries helped them and saw them on their way to safety. I met many of these airmen myself. A friend of mine, an air gunner, who was shot down six months ago in Belgium, flew back in the same plane as I did on Monday from Brussels. He had moved around all that time, had been passed on from hand to hand in Belgium and France, had always been fed and looked after decently and warmly received. The most moving thing of all that he told me occurred once when things were getting a bit "sticky" because he had encountered two or three German
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officers who, fortunately, did not know French much better than he did and he was therefore able to persuade them that he was actually French or Belgian: after that, an elderly Frenchwoman gave him her son's identity card, and he was able to substitute on it his own photograph for that of her son. Her son had been about his age, 22 years old, and had been killed only a few weeks before in an R.A.F. raid. I think it was a fine gesture, that that old Frenchwoman should have handed over her son's identity card to another member of the Royal Air Force. It showed what I found everywhere in Belgium and France—that people did understand quite clearly the necessity for the R.A.F. raids on their countries.
As several hon. Members have remarked, British prestige stands very high indeed, in Belgium particularly, at present. At the same time I should like to endorse very warmly what the hon. Member for Bridgwater said about the necessity of opening up, as urgently as possible, more channels of information, more interchange of ideas and news of what is happening in this country. The people of Belgium admire the British tremendously. They are sincerely grateful for the efforts this country has made, for the sufferings we underwent in the blitz and since; but naturally they only have a sketchy, a skeleton idea of what life has really been like in this country during these years. Some of them, indeed, think we have been living, as regards food for instance, in comparative luxury, while some of them have been nearly starving. It is very difficult to understand what has been happening in another country when there is this great barrier that occupation imposes—even though every one I met had listened regularly to the B.B.C. I think the prestige of the B.B.C. stands pretty well as high in Belgium as that of Britain itself. The most honoured names, second only to that of the Prime Minister, are such names as those of Frank Gillard and the other B.B.C. commentators and speakers. People were constantly asking, with a note of fan-worship in their voices, if one had really met Frank Gillard. They all listened, including many of the Germans billeted on them, because they knew that they would get an absolutely objective, fair account of the day's news, and that the B.B.C. would give the bad news with the good. But, all the same,

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there is this great lack of real understanding of what life is and has been like in this country, and the more people who can be sent over there as soon as possible to meet and talk with them the better—Members of Parliament, economists, trade union leaders, all sorts of people could go over and meet their friends and comrades in Belgium and France and get international relations working once more at all levels and not only at the official and military level. I think also, if a little aeroplane space can be spared—I know how tremendously heavy the pressure of inevitably high priority stuff is—that it would be as well to send over regular consignments of British newspapers, periodicals, and books. At least half a dozen strangers in Brussels asked me if it were possible to buy a British newspaper anywhere. Of course it was not, but they were anxious to know what was happening in this country.
Besides visiting the front I had the great privilege of attending the reopening of the Belgian Parliament. It was rather a moving and momentous occasion—the first free Parliament to reassemble on liberated territory. I suppose I can describe myself as a general supporter of the British Government, though probably not one of the most devoted supporters they have. None the less, it was an agreeable, almost a thrilling thing to witness the tremendous applause when the Prime Minister's name was mentioned in M. Pierlot's speech, and to realise that that was our colleagues in the Belgian Parliament paying tribute to the people and the Parliament of this country. Incidentally they applaud by clapping their hands and not by "Hear, hear"-ing throatily as we do. They clap their hands and rise up in their places, and the ovations that the names of Churchill, Montgomery and Stalin got were tremendous. I wonder whether it would be presumptuous in me to suggest to you, Sir, through the Leader of the House, that some message of greeting be sent to the Belgian Parliament from this House. I throw out the suggestion and leave it to you or to the Leader of the House to decide in your wisdom.
There are two overwhelmingly important and urgent questions which the authorities in Belgium now have to deal with. The first is the punishment of
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traitors and collaborators, about which the Belgian Press of several points of view, and not only the Press of the Left, is becoming increasingly restive. The other is the food situation. With regard to the punishment of traitors and collaborators, it is difficult to know exactly what we can do. It is obviously an internal matter for the Belgians themselves to settle; but I feel that our people out there should refrain as far as they can from collaborating in a social way with the collaborators or people who are likely to have been collaborators. I was rather sickened by the sight one saw night after night, in the luxurious black-market restaurants that flourish in Brussels, of young British officers being plied with champagne by people who, without being definable strictly as traitors, have undoubtedly made large quantities of money and lived in ease throughout the occupation by selling the products of their factories to the German invaders. That goes on all the time. There are, of course, many gradations of collaboration, and it is difficult to draw an absolute line and say of those on one side of it, "These are collaborators," and of the other side, "These are innocent." The same problem occurred in the former Vichy territory in France. I think that the line has been drawn in Belgium hitherto rather too loosely, at rather too modest a level, and I am rather afraid that some of our influence has gone towards preserving that.
With regard to the food situation, I took as much trouble as I could to find out what was going on and what had been going on. It is difficult to work it out exactly and to find out the real facts, because the black market in Belgium has been organised on a scale far more widespread than anything we can possibly conceive of in this country, where it is trivial and contemptible and universally regarded as anti-social. In Belgium during the Occupation it was regarded—at any rate, this was the pretext, and I do not know how genuine it was—as a laudable and patriotic thing to buy food or clothes on the black market, because it was supposed to be helping to disorganise the Nazi economy. I am not sure how genuine that was, and I am not sure that the Germans could not have put down the black market drastically if they had wished to. As far as I can make out,

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the economic level at which buying in the black market began was quite a humble one. It was not only the very wealthy who bought in the black market, but, occasionally at any rate, all the middle class and professional people and right down to the quite modest petitbourgeois level, people would buy from time to time as they could afford to in the black market. So that, indubitably, the one section of the Belgian people who have been hit hardest by the shortage of staple foods throughout the occupation and now, are the industrial working-class in the towns. The poorer workers in the towns have really been hard-hit by the food shortage.
I would not say the same is true of the entire population of Belgium. Certainly, there was nothing that I could find out or see in Belgium that approached the actual starvation conditions which have prevailed in Greece. I was driven to the opinion that probably our Ministry of Economic Warfare had been correct in its refusal to suspend the blockade in favour of the people of Belgium, as it was constantly being asked to do in this House and elsewhere. All the same, the poor, undoubtedly, suffered very badly, and there is still, in Belgium, an acute shortage of staple foods such as bread, butter and meat.
Mr. Edmund Harvey: Did my hon. Friend make inquiries among the schools as to the effect upon children in the elementary schools? That is the vital thing.
Mr. Driberg: I quite agree. The children, especially the children of the poorer classes again, had undoubtedly suffered. I did not, to be quite frank, inquire at the schools themselves. I asked many dozens of people of all sorts of conditions and professions, and I am trying to sum up, as fairly as I can, the result of my inquiries. Sometimes one's investigations lead one to the conclusion that one would have wished to reach and sometimes they do not, but I think it is only right to say what I could find out, as fairly as possible. Undoubtedly, the lack of staple foods will have had a terrible effect on the children of the poorer people—although, as I say, black-market buying, perhaps not always taken into account in the discussions in London, did go down
602
to a much lower economic level than it would have gone in this country, for instance. The difficulty is that when they have for four and a half years had the habit of buying in the black market it is rather hard to cure people of it. That is one of the points about which the Belgian authorities will have to take pretty drastic steps fairly quickly, because, despite official and public disclaimers, the black market, although restricted and limited in its operations, is still flourishing.
One of the difficulties of the situation—and this is another matter of, so to speak, international public relations—is that our troops, in Brussels for instance, see a very gay city where they can get ice-cream in the shops and other things which Belgians do not believe we are not allowed in this country. The soldiers do not notice the shortage of staple foods so much, and they are apt to write letters home to their people here saying: "There is no shortage of anything over here. The Belgians are living in the lap of luxury," and so on, which is not true. That is the superficial impression that they get. There might be two long-term unfortunate effects of that impression. The first is that Nazi occupation might not be so bad after all, if the people can live as comfortably as the Belgians seem to. The second is that there is no need for us to go on with food-rationing after the war, or to stint ourselves at all to benefit these foreigners who are apparently having such a good time. I say that that is a purely superficial impression, but that is the impression which large numbers of our troops in Belgium are getting and sending home, and I think that something, if possible, should be done to offset it.
Mr. Woodburn: According to my information, one of the reasons why both the Belgians and the French were left with so much, was the difficulty of the Germans in getting transport to take it away.
Mr. Driberg: That is quite probably true. I do not want to give the impression that the Belgians have been left with much. That is a superficial appearance, because their cities are very clean and gay and because they are allowed little luxuries such as ice-cream; but they are still short of the main staple foods, such as bread and meat.
Mr. Woodburn: In the towns?
Mr. Driberg: Yes, in the towns, and in Brussels in particular. In Normandy, I agree, one was never short of cheese, for example, because of the difficulty of transporting it to Paris or to Germany when our invasion began.
Another impression to which I was forced—rather reluctantly perhaps—in Holland, Belgium and France, the countries that had been occupied, was that there was an almost unanimous feeling of intense bitterness against the German invaders, and a feeling that the peace should be a firm or even a hard one. I simply put that on record. I myself am not what is called a Vansittartite. I think that that doctrine is a misleading over-simplification, but at the same time I do not agree with the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Hynd), who seemed to think that the people of the formerly occupied countries would take a generous or charitable view of Germany. From what I have seen and What I have heard, from what they actually say to one, there is unanimous loathing and detestation of the Germans as such.
Captain Plugge: While in Brussels did the hon. Member on Sunday go to the English churches, either Christchurch or the Church of the Resurrection, or talk to any of the permanent British residents in Brussels during the occupation?
Mr. Driberg: No; on Sunday morning I went to Mass at Ste. Gudule. I was rather disappointed by the music. I did not, in fact, talk to many British residents who were there during the occupation. I talked chiefly to Belgians. I do not know whether British residents would confirm this, but I know the Belgians were unanimous in hoping for a rather Carthaginian peace for Germany. I put that on record without saying whether agree with it or not.
The hon. Member for Attercliffe also referred to the alleged American fraternisation in Germany. He said it was a natural process. I agree that it is natural
604
and will inevitably happen, later at any rate; but in the two or three German places that I visited it was not happening. The Americans were behaving in a correct, severe, aloof way and were not fraternising with the Germans. One of these places was Kornelimünster, about which, by a coincidence, there was a Question on the Order Paper this morning. I do not know what the answer was, because the Question was not reached. It was a Question alleging that the Allied Civil Affairs authorities had installed a leading Nazi as Mayor of Kornelimünster. By a coincidence I was in that place last week, and I talked to the American colonel in charge of Civil Affairs. He told me about the difficulty they had had to find an impeccable mayor. He said that they had eventually installed the principal of the high school, whose neighbours assured them that neither he nor any member of his family had ever given the Nazi salute. I was a little sceptical about that. I wondered how he had remained principal of the high school throughout the Nazi régime if he had not done so. But that was what they were assured. They backed up their choice by saying that he was also recommended by the priest.
I do not agree at all with Members who say we ought to "go slow" after the war in trying to put across the League idea, the idea of a community of nations in Europe. I think this is the dynamic moment. "Now is the acceptable time." I think the ordinary peoples of Europe are inspired by the achievements of Tito, the F.F.I., and the partisan movements generally as they are never likely to be inspired again by anything. I think we should go forward, with that kind of inspiration in our minds, to building up the post-war world.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine Minutes after Eight o'Clock.

  PENSIONS AND GRANTS
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Preamble
The House met at two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name.
  Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being dispensed with for the purpose of passing the Liabilities (War-time Adjustment) Bill through its remaining stages.—(Lord Templemore.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, before I put the question to the House I think it only respectful to explain that the Bill referred to, the Liabilities (War-time Adjustment) Bill, has since the Second Reading become more urgent than ever. That is due to the return of large numbers of persons, who had been evacuated, to the coastal areas in the South and East of England. They are returning to find that they have in many cases very considerable liabilities which have piled up against them, though it is quite true that under a moratorium those liabilities cannot for the moment be enforced by the creditors against them. The object of this Bill, as your Lordships may remember, is to provide a better service, in the course of which we hope to adjust the liabilities themselves—to get landlords, for example, to agree to reduce unpaid rents, and so on. As these people are now returning to the coastal districts, it has become a matter of the greatest urgency to provide the additional assistance which will be given by the passing of this Bill; otherwise we should not have asked for the remaining stages of the Bill to be taken together.
  On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

  LIABILITIES (WAR-TIME ADJUSTMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
  Order of the day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly:
  [The LORD STANMORE in the Chair.]
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Clause 2 [Powers of the court to settle moratorium debts and liabilities]:
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to add to subsection (3):
  "In this subsection the expression 'principal sum' means the sum actually lent and does not include any unpaid interest required by the terms of the charge to be added to that sum and charged on the premises."
  The noble and learned Viscount said: This is the first of a number of Amendments on the Paper, and I do not think that there will be any controversy about any of them. It is most important to get this machinery exactly right. The text of the Bill has been examined afresh since the Second Reading, with the help of various expert interests, and I believe that when these Amendments are made we shall have got it into very good shape. The first Amendment is merely to explain that when we provide that the principal sum owing on a mortgage is not to be altered under this machinery, we do not include in the principal sum the interest which may have accumulated. As your Lordships know, it is quite common in mortgage documents to provide that unpaid interest shall be treated as added to the principal lent. While we want to be able to adjust the interest payments, we do not suggest that we can do the same with the capital. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 2, line 40, at end insert the said words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR had given Notice of the following Amendment which he proposed to insert it the end of the clause:
  "(9) Notwithstanding Section fifteen of the principal Act (which provides for the application of that Act to private companies only)

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  an application under this section or the last foregoing section may be made by any body corporate, and the proviso to Section twenty of the principle Act (which provides for the exercise of jurisdiction, in a case where the debtor is a company, by the court or courts having jurisdiction to wind up the company) shall not apply to any application made under this section otherwise than in the course of adjustment proceedings."
  The noble and learned Viscount said: This new subsection which we wish to add will make it possible for a company to take advantage of this legislation for wartime adjustment even though the company is not a private company. Hitherto we have limited it to private companies but there are public companies, though not necessarily very big ones, in localities which have suffered like individuals owing to the conditions which have prevailed. The object of this Amendment is simply to secure that any company, public or private, whatever be the amount of its capital, may take advantage of the scheme and make application to a County Court for adjustment under this clause. With the permission of the House I propose to move the Amendment in a slightly different form from the form on the Paper. The clause on the Paper begins:
  "Notwithstanding Section fifteen of the principal Act (which provides for the application of that Act to private companies only)."
  The words are inserted between brackets in accordance with the modern method of drafting, a great convenience too, in which you give a short description of the section to which you are referring. Well, the description is not accurate because Section fifteen of the principal Act does not apply to private companies only; the Act applies to individuals, who are much more important than companies. Therefore I propose to move the Amendment in an altered form so that the words in brackets will then read:
  "(which in its application to companies provides for the application of that Act to private companies only)."
  Amendment moved—
  Page 3, line 30, at end insert:
  ("(9) Notwithstanding Section fifteen of the principal Act (which in its application to companies provides for the application of that Act, to private con panes only) an application under this section or the last foregoing section may be made by any body corporate, and the proviso to Section twenty of the principal Act (which provides for the exercise of jurisdiction, in a case where the debtor is a company, by the court or courts having jurisdiction to wind up the company) shall not apply to any
  218
  application made under this section otherwise than in the course of liabilities adjustment proceedings.").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 3 [Power to extend foregoing sections to additional areas]:
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment to the clause is of an unusual sort because, notwithstanding all the care that is taken by draftsmen and Government printers, they have succeeded in printing in the Bill wrong words—an interesting but rare illustration. If you turn to the clause you will see that in line 43 we apparently propose to enact a very odd provision, because the context is about orders. Where the clause says that the evacuation period shall be deemed to have ended or to end "on a date specified in that area" it ought to be "specified in that order". I hope your Lordships will not feel that this is a very controversial Amendment.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 3, line 43, leave out ("area") and insert ("order").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 4:
  Amendment of Section 3 of principal Act.
  4.—(r) The amendments specified in the following provisions of this section shall be made in subsections (1) and (6) of Section three of the principal Act (which relates to an application for the adjustment of a debtor's affairs), and accordingly the said subsections shall have effect as set out in the First Schedule to this Act.
  (2) For sub-paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of the said section three there shall be substituted the following paragraph:
  "(b) is in such a position that, if he were required to pay his accrued debts and to meet, as they fall due, any such future liabilities as aforesaid, he would not have sufficient resources to enable him to preserve or recover his business or other means of livelihood;"
  and paragraph (ii) of the said subsection (which allows creditors whose debts are affected by the Defence (Evacuated Areas) Regulations, 1940, to commence liabilities adjustment proceedings) shall be omitted; and for the words "the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, 1939," there shall he substituted the words "the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, 1943"
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to substitute "former" for "other" in paragraph (b) in subsection (2). The

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  noble and learned Viscount said: As the Bill is drawn, the assistance which it will give to people who are put in great financial difficulty owing to war circumstances is too restricted because the consideration has to be what it would be right to do to help a man to get back to the business which he had before. But there may be cases where the individual, though needing the help of the Bill, really cannot hope to get back to that business. He may have established a different one and it may even be that he has become too old to carry on the business but, none the less, needs to keep a little nest egg for himself and his family. Those considerations ought not to be excluded. The effect of this Amendment is to make sure that the adjustment officer and the County Court judge, if they think it is right to do so, may take that into consideration.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 4, line 9, leave out ("other") and insert ("former").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to add to paragraph (b) in subsection (2) the words "or otherwise to make reasonable provision for the future maintenance of himself and his family". The noble and learned Viscount said: This is the same point as the last.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 4, line 9, at end insert the said words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 5 and 6 agreed to.
  Clause 7:
  Amendment of principal Act in relation to mortgages.
  (5) Where any person has mortgaged any property as security for the performance of any obligation by the debtor, the court may by order direct, subject to such conditions as it thinks fit to impose, that the mortgaged property shall be treated for the purposes of Part I of the principal Act as if it were the property of the debtor, and accordingly the protection order shall extend to proceedings and remedies against that property and the powers of the court under the said Part I may be exercised in relation to the property.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (5), to leave out all words
  220
  after "that," where that word first occurs, and insert:
  "the protection order shall extend to proceedings and remedies against that property, and may by order provide for the remission or reduction of the interest charged or chargeable on the property in respect of any period before or after the making of the order, in like manner and subject to like conditions as in the case of mortgage interest payable by the debtor, and make such consequential amendments and adjustments of the instrument creating the mortgage as the court considers necessary; and, on the making of an order of discharge, the court may direct that any order made under this subsection shall continue in force for such further period as the court thinks fit."
  The noble and learned Viscount said: This Amendment is technical. It would take perhaps a little time to explain it in detail and I do not think the House would expect me to do that. It is enough to say that subsection (5) is intended to make provision for what is called a "third party security" a very common incident in mortgages and the like, where the mortgage is not given by the debtor, but is given by a third person. As we have drawn the Bill, it really would not work. This is purely for the purpose of securing that the thing is in proper order for that purpose. The result will be that you will get the scheme of the Bill under this clause applied to protect property from being sold up and it may be to reduce the rate of interest, even though you are dealing with a third party security.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 7, line 49, leave out from ("that") to the end of the subsection and insert the said words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 8 to 11 agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after Clause 11, to insert the following clause:
  Power to compromise claims.
  "12. The court may approve any compromise or arrangement, whether made by the debtor or by the liabilities adjustment officer or other person responsible for administering the liabilities adjustment order, with respect to any claim capable of resulting in a provable debt or any claim affecting any property of the debtor, but no such compromise or arrangement made while the liabilities adjustment order is in force as respects that debt or property shall he valid without the approval of the court."
  The noble and learned Viscount said: This is a very simple clause. There

  221
  appears to he some doubt whether a County Court Judge can confirm an arrangement which has been arrived at by compromise. No doubt he can sit there and deal out what he thinks is justice when the parties disagree, but there seems to be some doubt whether the Act enables him to approve an arrangement—if he does approve it—if it is come to by compromise. But compromise is better than litigation. Therefore we wish to make it clear that he can confirm an arrangement arrived at by compromise.
  Amendment moved—
  After Clause 11 insert the said new clause.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clauses 12 to 14 agreed to.
  Clause [Registration of protection order]:
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out Clause 15 and insert the following clause:
  Registration of protection orders and liabilities adjustment orders.
  "15.—(1) A protection order or liabilities adjustment order which provides for the appointment of a receiver of any land of the debtor or charges any such land or vests any such land in a trustee may be registered in the register of writs and orders affecting land kept at His Majesty's Land Registry under Section one of the Land Charges Act, 1925, and accordingly that Act shall have effect as if such orders were included among the writs and orders mentioned in subsection (1) of Section six of the said Act, and Section twenty-three of the said Act (which excludes writs .and orders affecting registered land) shall not apply to any such orders.
  (2) As soon as practicable after any such protection order or adjustment order as aforesaid has been registered under the Land Charges Act, 1925, the registrar shall enter an inhibition against the title of the debtor to any registered land appearing to be affected, and thereafter (without prejudice to dealings with or in right of any estate or interest having priority ever the estate or interest of the debtor) no dealing affecting the said registered lard shall, unless the court so directs, be entered on the register until the inhibition is vacated as to the land affected.
  Any such inhibition shall be vacated when the protection order or the liabilities adjustment order, so far as it provides for the appointment of a receiver of the land or charges or vests the land, ceases to have effect.
  (3) No fee shall be charged for the registration of any order or inhibition under this section."
  The noble and learned Viscount said: This is merely an order that the provisions of the Bill may be suitably fitted
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  to the provisions that already exist about the register in the Land Registry and matters of that sort. It is undoubtedly in a better form, and those particularly concerned—the office which deals with these matters and the associations concerned—are quite satisfied that this is the best way to express the clause.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 10, leave out Clause 15 and insert the said new clause.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 16 agreed to.
  Clause 17 [Proving of reduced debts]:
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is merely to make plain the intention of the Legislature.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 11, line 15, after ("reduced") insert ("from the debtor").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is also to explain what we mean.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 11, line 16, at end add ("or, in the case of a secured debt, by enforcing the security").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  First Schedule:
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: These are purely consequential Amendments and I beg to move.
  Amendments moved—
  Page 12, line 15, leave out ("other") and insert ("former").
  Page 12, line 15, at end insert ("or otherwise to make reasonable provision for the future maintenance of himself and his family").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendments agreed to.
  First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
  Second Schedule:
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The object of the first Amendment is to enable the Court to charge the debtor's property in favour of the liabilities adjustment officer for the benefit of the creditors instead of charging it in favour of the creditors direct. That is often the more convenient course. I understand it has been

  223
  already followed, but it is of doubtful legality unless we authorize it.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 15, line 29 at end insert ("In paragraph (b) of subsection (3) for the word 'creditors' there shall be substituted the words 'liabilities adjustment officer for the benefit of the creditors'").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is consequential.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 15, line 55, at end insert ("and shall be subject to any compromise or arrangement approved by the Court").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The object of the next Amendment is to enable the adjustment officer to apply to the Court to make an order of discharge where the debtor who is qualified to obtain such an order fails to make the application, otherwise the adjustment proceedings are not properly disposed of.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 16, line 27, at end insert ("after the words 'on his application' there shall be inserted the words 'or on the application of the liabilities adjustment officer' and for the word 'he' there shall be substituted the words 'the debtor'").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is consequential on the Amendment to Clause 4.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 16, leave out line 35 and insert ("to make reasonable provision for the future maintenance of themselves and their families").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment merely changes a singular into a plural because there are now going to be two paragraphs instead of one.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 76, line 46, leave out ("paragraph") and insert ("paragraphs").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This is the last Amendment. In view of what
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  I have said we must have two paragraphs.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 16, line 49, at end insert:
  ("(g) may provide for the investment of any money paid into court in the course of liabilities adjustment proceedings ").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I have it in command from His Majesty to acquaint the House that His Majesty, having been informed of the contents of the Liabilities (War-time Adjustment) Bill, has been pleased to give his consent as far as His Majesty's interests are concerned, on behalf of the Crown and the Duchy of Cornwall, that the House may proceed therein as they think fit.
  Then Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, Amendments reported; Bill read 3ª; Privilege Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

  JEWISH BRIGADE GROUP.
  LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I beg to ask the question standing in my name. In doing so I wish to thank the noble Lord, Lord Croft, for carrying out the undertaking he gave in this House to try to get this matter satisfactorily settled.
  [The question was as follows:
  To ask His Majesty's Government what classes of recruits it is proposed to accept for the Jewish Brigade Group; and whether it is proposed to accept Jewish soldiers who are not British subjects now serving in units of His Majesty's Army other than Palestinian battalions.]
  THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD CROFT): My Lords, it is intended that the Brigade Group shall be formed as far as possible from existing Palestinian units. We shall, therefore, look primarily for recruits from among Palestinian Jews. In general the answer to the second part of the noble Lord's question is in the negative. Strictly limited numbers will, however, be allowed to volunteer in order to provide the necessary cadres with specialized knowledge for the formation of certain of the units needed by a Brigade

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  Group. Only volunteers will be transferred and they will be almost entirely non-British Jews.
  LORD STLABOLGI: May I ask the noble Lord as to the position of Jews in neutral countries who wish to volunteer to fig it in the cause of the Allies? What happens in their case? Will they be considered?
  LORD CROFT: From my answer the noble Lord will realize it is intended primarily to recruit in Palestine. Others will be allowed to volunteer in limited numbers in order to provide the necessary cadres, but he will realize the impossibility, in the time, of collecting recruits from foreign countries even if that policy were desirable. Consequently I am afraid I must limit my promise to the answer I have made.
  LORD STRABOLGI: I thank the noble Lord, but I shall press this matter further because it is urgent.

  CONTROL OF LAND USE.
  2.30 p.m.
  Debate resumed (according to Order) on the Motion of Lord Balfour of Burleigh to resolve, That the decentralization, decongestion and redevelopment of our big towns do constitute a primary object of policy of His Majesty's Government.
  LORD LATHAM: My Lords, the problem of the decentralization, decongestion and redevelopment of towns depends almost entirely upon the proper control of land use, and that being so it seems to me that in discussing the White Paper on Land Use we are not so much out of order as the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, seemed to suggest in his speech yesterday. It is well that we should bear in mind that the proposals in the White Paper deal with only one aspect of the problem of the control of the use of land and of planning. It is, if I may say so, the negative side. The Compensation and restriction provisions are intended and designed to control development and are regulatory and the betterment proposals are designed to collect some of the benefits which may flow from the granting of permission. But the positive side of development and of town planning is not dealt with in this Paper. That positive side is the fundamental problem of the acquisition of land.
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  The proposals in the White Paper appear to me to be a compromise upon a compromise. The Uthwatt Committee's main proposals were submitted as alternatives to the nationalization of land, for one reason inter alia that such a subject would arouse keen political controversy, and the proposals in the White Paper are a compromise upon Uthwatt. There was a time when it was almost like sinning against the light to appear to criticize the proposals of Uthwatt and it was not perhaps exceptional that the most fervent apostles of the Uthwatt proposals were often those who had not read the Report. The proposals for compensation in the White Paper in my view are an advance upon the Uthwatt proposals. They first of all avoid unnecessary expenditure of State money in respect of development rights of land where no development is ever likely to take place. Secondly, save and except green land—that is to say, rural land—compensation is not to be paid until permission to develop is refused and the owner shows that he is in a position to carry out such development. That wise and provident proposal ought to diminish the otherwise swollen sums which would have to be paid out of the Exchequer in respect of compensation. In those respects the White Paper is a notable advance in my submission upon the proposals of Uthwatt.
  Lord Balfour of Burleigh, in his very admirable speech yesterday and in his notable endeavours to bring together as it were the advocates of nationalization and its opponents, suggested that a deal should be made on the basis of, say, 50 per cent. of the compensation for development values. My only difficulty in respect of that proposal is this—50 per cent. of what? Are we to assume as Uthwatt did that large areas of rural land possess development value? My own view is that development values will in practice be found to attach to not more than about 15 per cent. of the undeveloped land outside urban areas. Then there will remain the problem of establishing the sum upon which you would offer the landowners 5o per cent. Whilst I admit that uncertainty in planning is a serious handicap I think there is much to be said for the proposals in the White Paper that the level of compensation should not be settled and the payment for compensation should not be made for a period of five years. It is quite impossible for any

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  valuers to say to-day what lines development in this country will follow. We do not know yet what the Government's policy is as regards the location of industry. These values will very largely depend on the directions in which development may go, the extent of it, the area of it and the form of it. Until it is possible to discern those elemental features it would be quite beyond the range of anyone to assess the development value which resided in any particular land at March 31. Therefore I think the proposal to defer both the assessment and the payment in the Government's proposal is a wise one.
  Moreover, the White Paper proposals have a substantial advantage over the proposals of Uthwatt. Your Lordships will remember that Uthwatt proposed to impose a restriction upon development only upon undeveloped land in the rural areas. It left the developed land in the rural areas unaffected by restriction and it left all land in the urban areas unaffected by it, whereas the proposals in the White Paper do suggest a universal restriction upon the development of any land where-ever it may be situated. I think that is a substantial step forward and a substantial improvement upon the proposals of the Uthwatt Committee. It is to be borne in mind that the payment of compensation, except as to rural land, is based upon the owner not only showing that he is at a disadvantage in not being able to carry out development but that in fact he is able to carry out that development, and only when those conditions are satisfied will his claim to payment arise or be admitted.
  I come now to the betterment charge. This differs from Uthwatt in two respects, one perhaps a nominal respect. The White Paper proposes 80 per cent. whereas Uthwatt proposes 75 per cent. The Uthwatt proposal was a continuous one on annual site values and was not limited to the specific development of the specific site, as the White Paper proposal is, and it was unencumbered by the difficult condition that it must be for a different use. But the Uthwatt levy applied only to land within urban areas whereas the proposal of the betterment charge applies to all land. I have one serious criticism to make of the proposal of a betterment charge limited to the development of particular sites. It will allow the escape of much
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  increase in value which does not necessarily arise from redevelopment of the particular site but which flows from public expenditure and communal activities in surrounding areas, the increases of population, the movement of industry to a particular area, the projection of a road, the improvement in transport and railway facilities. These factors, which are communal activities, often operate to increase the value of land which may remain quite unchanged in its particular
  development. Under these proposals that increase in the value of land will
  escape. I would like the noble Lord, the Minister of Reconstruction, to tell us in his reply whether the proposed betterment charge is to be on capital site or annual site value and whether it is to be continuous—that is to say, whether it is to apply to successive redevelopment on a particular site area or whether its operation is to be limited to the first redevelopment? I cannot think any such limitation is in the minds of those who submit the proposal. Some clarification on that point would, however, be of assistance.
  Then I come to the "different use" condition. Paragraph 17 of the White Paper says:
  "The general intention, however, is to levy the charge wherever the owner is permitted substantially to change the nature or scale of his use, so that the value of his land is materially increased."
  What an intriguing collection of indeterminates. It will produce joy among the valuers and, if I may say so, among the lawyers, when the question has to be determined whether these conditions are satisfied. There are some very substantial social disadvantages in this condition of "different use." It will lead, in my view, to piecemeal adaptation and extension of buildings on land in order to avoid the redevelopment coming within the category of "substantial" and thus to escape the betterment charge. I think it is totally undesirable that anything in legislation should seek to put a premium necessarily on maintaining and crystallizing the present use of particular sites. It will, in my view, lead to the crystallization of the existing use of particular sites, because if the use is changed and there is increase in value the betterment charge will be attracted. To perpetuate in many cases, especially in the cities and towns of this country, the existing use of land is not

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  only to perpetuate wasteful use of land but to perpetuate a use which may be socially undesirable. Nothing should encourage that; and the escape of that kind of development from the betterment charge will encourage it. I hope the Government will pay appropriate attention to these social factors.
  I come next to the centralization of finance and I must say I view the proposals in the White Paper with serious misgivings. The White Paper says in paragraph 16 (i):
  "This proposal has been framed on the assumption that the control of the use of land will he so managed that over a reasonable period of years, and over the country as a whole, receipts of betterment charge will broadly balance the payments of fair compensation."
  Those words are bad enough, but when we cone to paragraph 29 we get this—and I am sure the Minister of Reconstruction will appreciate that this is a very important point. The White Paper says in paragraph 29:
  "The processes of planning and development in all their aspects will, therefore, be so managed as ultimately to secure such a balance."
  I want to ask the noble Lord, the Minister of Reconstruction, whether that means that planning is to be put on a receipts and payments basis. Is the basis to be not the merit of the particular plan but what it will coil in compensation? Inevitably the income which irises from betterment must lag behind, and in many
  cases must lag well behind, the compensation payment. At what point of time is the balance of these accounts to commence? Is it to be a regional account or a national account? Are there to be separate accounts for particular areas or not?
  In the course of very well-balanced and informed articles, if I may say so, which appeared in The Times, setting out points of importance for clarification, the writer in the second article asked:
  "Will the Commission, for equity's sake, have a private set of ledgers in which it will attempt a regional balance as well as a national one on the very probable assumption that the money will not go round?"
  That question goes to the very root of the finance of compensation and betterment, and indeed to the very root of planning itself. For instance, is the planning authority to be told that, although its proposals to restrict development of a particular site are admirable, are desir-
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  able, conform to the regional plan and are in accordance with the principles of the national plan, nevertheless the restrictions cannot be imposed because that would give rise to too much compensation? These are not theoretical questions I am asking. They are real questions which go to the root of successful planning. Is the planning authority to be told: "We are very sorry, but the fund is exhausted"? Some of us have recollections of the Road Fund in 1929–31 when many desirable projects were turned down because the Road Fund was exhausted and the money had gone to the first applicants. We want speedy planning but we do not want competition between planning authorities to see who can get to the Treasury first to get payment from the compensation fund.
  There is an even more important consideration. If, in fact, this Land Commission is to control the use and development of land in all its aspects, it will become, in fact, the Ministry of Planning. Plans may be approved by the local authority, proposals may fit in with the regional plan, they may be approved by the Minister of Town and Country Planning; but so far as they involve payment of compensation they will have to get the consent and approval of the Land Commission which of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Balfour, said, would be in fact the voice of the Treasury. That is a very gloomy prospect and local authorities are very anxious to receive some assurance on that particular point. In the past much good planning has been frustrated because the local authority had not the money to pay for imposing restrictions, but at all events they had the right to decide whether they would pay the money or not. Under this proposal there will be a national Commission divorced from the influence of the local authority but not divorced from the influence of the Treasury. It is essential that if these proposals are to find legislative expression this point should be cleared up and that no such financial control of planning on a basis of income and expenditure should be imposed on the country.
  Now I come to the other element of planning; that is, the finance of acquisition. As one who had the privilege of being the spokesman for the local authorities in the negotiations with the Minister of Town and Country Planning, I am not insensible of the defects of his Bill.

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  It was, when introduced, quite incorrectly named. It was not a Town and Country Planning Bill at all; it was a Bill for the speedy reinstatement of damaged areas. Not the replanning of damaged areas, but the reinstatement of damaged areas. It has undergone some considerable criticism, and it is likely—and I hope such will be the case—to undergo considerable modification in another place when it is considered next week. But it will still remain deficient from the point of view of planning; deficient in many respects. The principle defect is the failure to provide adequate financial assistance for the planning authorities. There is no provision in the Bill, nor is it intended to include any provision in it, for the blighted areas and even the financial assistance for the "blitzed" and overspill areas is quite inadequate to secure any proper redevelopment of those areas by many local authorities. Moreover, there is no financial assistance proposed for the provision of open spaces.
  Open spaces constitute the chief means of opening up present-day congested areas. They provide the main way in which we can let the air and sun into the dark and noisome parts of many of our big cities. Open spaces do not come within the category of grant-earning services. The local authority must not only buy the land but must maintain it for proper use as an open space. This inevitably involves a not inconsiderable maintenance charge from year to year. But there is no provision in the Bill for any grant in respect of acquisition of open spaces. The Minister, yesterday made a statement in another place that this matter was to be reconsidered. As I read his statement, the further consideration would appear to be limited to school playing fields. Desirable as is the provision of additional school playing fields that is not the only direction in which we want additional open spaces, nor is that the only purpose for which we want them. Moreover, playing fields in connexion with schools are already grant-earning. It is the other open spaces with which we are concerned. In the County of London plan, the authors put forward the proposal that London needs four acres of open
  space per thousand persons. We have been told by more than one Ministry that
  they think this proposed provision
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  is hardly adequate, and that we should consider increasing it. To provide four acres of open space per thousand persons in London in the places where such spaces are most needed would cost upwards of £50,000,000 at present land values in London—upwards of £50,000,000 of money. Relatively, the same burden would be cast on many other cities and towns. If we are to provide adequate open spaces—which is the best means of opening up our towns and cities and decongesting them—we must have more adequate financial assistance.
  I must say I entirely support the proposal of my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh with regard to the State acquiring land needed for local authorities. I think, if I may say so, that the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, did not appear completely to understand the proposal submitted by Lord Balfour. It was not that a Land-holding Commission should buy the land itself and say how it should be developed; it was that instead of local authorities buying particular parcels of land for housing spaces, or schools or other developments, including open spaces—buying it individually and holding it—the State through a Land-holding Commission should buy it and then lease it to the local authorities on appropriate terms, at a rental related to the use to which the land is to be put, and not at a rental at which it could commercially be let.
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: Which authority is to decide what land is to be bought?
  LORD LATHAM: The planning authority, or the local authority. I will if I may just amplify this. A local authority, in present conditions, decides that it must build a housing estate. It needs land for that purpose. It goes into the market to buy land, and I will, with your Lordships' permission, in a few moments, give you some details about the prices of land in London. In acquiring land in the past the local authority has frequently had to buy land for a housing estate in a place where the estate really ought not to be, because the price of land where the housing estate ought to be has been so high. On the other hand it has happened that if it has bought land at high prices, it has been induced, indeed, financially, has been almost compelled, to develop the estate at too high a density because of the cost of the land. The pro-

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  posal of Lord Balfour of Burleigh, as I understand it, is this—and it is one that I have advocated in other places—that, instead of the local authority buying land, once the authority has determined that it wants it and has determined what kind of development it will be used for, the Land-holding Commission acting for the Treasury or the Government should buy it.
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, if I may be permitted to interrupt for a moment, may I suggest that it is very important that this should be made clear so that we should understand the proposal correctly? Possibly I may have misunderstood is yesterday. I understand from what the noble Lord, Lord Latham, now says that it is proposed that the local authority shall, in any given case, declare what are the areas it wishes to acquire for purposes of development and so forth, and then thy Land-holding Commission must automatically accent the choice of the land and carry out the purchase.
  LORD LATHAM: I would not seek to put the limitation of acting automatically on any self-respecting Commission.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: May I intervene and say that the acquisition of the land would of course be subject to the declared principles of national planning?
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: What does that mean? Does it mean that the Landholding Commission is to say: "No, we won't buy this" or "Yes, we will buy it"? If the former, then the matter is taken out of the hands of the local authorities and put into the hands of the Commission.
  LORD LATHAM: My Lords, the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, overlooks the procedure which a local authority has now to follow before it can acquire land. A local authority does not say that it will acquire such-and-such a site, and instruct its agent to buy it; the location of a housing estate, as well is its development, must be approved by the Minister of Health. Presumably it will in future have to have the assent as well on planning grounds, of the Minister of Town and Country Planning. Once those two requirements are satisfied, there is no point in the Landholding Commission then inquiring into
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  the propriety or otherwise of taking over that particular site.
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: There is no financial control.
  LORD LATHAM: Financial control is exercised by the Minister of Health in respect of any housing estate, because the Minister pays two-thirds of the deficiency, roughly speaking. Financial control is exercised by the Minster of Education in respect of the site for a
  school, because the Ministry of Education pays half the grant in respect of it. If I may say so with respect, this suggestion that local authorities are not subject to adequate control of their activities and of their spending of money or incurring of debt is entirely fallacious. They cannot do what they like. If they want to make a street improvement of any size, they must get the consent of the Minister of Transport.
  These consents having been obtained, however, the issue becomes this: Is it
  better that the land should be acquired by individual local authorities for public purposes, or should it be acquired by the State? My view is that the State should acquire and let the land on an appropriate lease, at a rent
  appropriate to the use to which it is destined to be put. There is no commercial profitability in most of the land local authorities own. If an electricity undertaking is put on the site there is some commercial profitability. But there is no commercial profitability in housing; an enormous public subsidy is required from year to year in respect of housing. There is no commercial profitability in land which is held for educational purposes, or in land which is held or acquired for hospitals and so on. Therefore the rental would in most cases be nominal. Let us be perfectly frank about it.
  That does not mean, however, that the Treasury would necessarily lose that money. What happens now? If a local authority buys land upon which commercial development would otherwise have taken place, that commercial development will go elsewhere and take place on another site, and 80 per cent. of the increase in value arising from that will be caught by the proposals of the White Paper and will inure to the benefit of the Treasury. There will be a considerable recoupment, therefore, in that way. But there is a more direct method of

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  recoupment. At present, as I have said, the State subsidizes most of the social services of the local authorities—housing on the basis of a two-to-one grant, education roughly on the basis of 50 per cent., and so on. Hospitals, under the contemplated new health service, are going to receive a public grant, as part of the National Health Service. Every pound that a local authority saves in the cost of land acquired for these purposes goes to reduce the subsidy which the Government pay through the Ministry of Health for housing and in respect of hospitals, the National Health Service and the like, and through the Ministry of Education for education. The additional burden cast upon the State, therefore, would really not be very substantial over a long period of time.
  I should like now to point out the very serious situation in which many local authorities find themselves in connexion with the acquisition of land. Speaking to your Lordships in March of this year, I said that in London the average price of land was about £12,000 an acre. Quite a number of your Lordships seemed to assume that that was an exceptional figure. It is not. It is by no means exceptional; it is an average figure. I have details before me of the price of land which has been acquired, and these figures have been certified by the Ministry of Health in respect of the subsidy which is granted. The figures are: in Bermondsey, £22,000 an acre; in Bethnal Green, £22,000 an acre; in Lambeth, £29,000 an acre; in Holborn, £30,000 an acre; in Finsbury, £37,000 an acre; in Stepney, £33,000 an acre; in St. Pancras, £32,000 an acre. Even in a place like Stoke Newington, which is on the boundary of the county and which is one of those areas where the planners suggest that development should be on the basis of 100 persons per acre, upwards of £12,000 has been paid per acre.
  I can give some even more startling figures for land acquired by the borough councils. I do not suggest that borough councils are any more wasteful than the London County Council, because these valuations have to be approved by the Chief Valuer of the Treasury. There was a scheme in Holborn where the land was purchased at the rate of £45,000 an acre, and in St. Marylebone the figure was
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  £27,000. It will be seen, therefore, that £12,000 an acre in London is not an exceptional figure, and is not the price of land opposite the Bank of England either. We have had experience in connexion with the improvement of the Strand where the price of land asked was at the rate of £1,000,000 an acre. When people are inclined to think of the London County Council and the Metropolitan boroughs as large and wealthy corporations, I would beg them to bear in mind the liabilities which they carry because of the excessive cost of land in London. I hope, therefore, that the Government will consider the proposal for the acquisition of land needed for public purposes through a central organization such as the Landholding Commission.
  In October, 1943, the Minister of Town and Country Planning said quite properly that the Government took the view that the solution of the compensation and betterment problem is a necessary precedent to successful planning. That is the case, but it is equally true that we must solve this problem of the acquisition of land by the positive planners and developers—namely, the local authorities. The two things go together; the proposals for dealing with compensation and betterment are incomplete if they are not accompanied by proposals by which the planning authority can get the land necessary for positive development on reasonable terms and without an excessive financial burden.
  3.10 p.m.
  VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: My Lords, there are only a few things with which I need trouble the House, because I realize that a great deal of ground has already been covered. I think everybody is agreed that the Motion of my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh has been amply justified and has led to an excellent debate. It is plain, I think, that it was very desirable that it should be clearly shown as the result of this debate that the vast aggregations which the noble Lord called "million-mark aggregations" should be checked in future. I was very glad to hear that the Minister, my noble friend Lord Woolton, accepted the Motion. There is an advantage about debates in this House, where so much knowledge is to be found, that a general proposition may require and receive some qualification, and that came from my noble friend Lord

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  Astor, who pointed out in a most clear and able speech something which received support in a letter from the mayors of seven great cities which appeared in The Times this morning—namely, that you must not stretch your principle so far as to prevent cities such as Plymouth from acquiring some additional land for the purpose of reinstating people who have been bombed out. I think the remarks of my noble friend were exceedingly cogent, and I have no doubt that the Government will pay great attention to them. In particular, cities such as Plymouth and the others mentioned are cases which require the most careful attention.
  So much for the actual terms of the Motion except as regards its first line, which proposes to call attention to the White Paper, and we have all been invited to express our opinions upon it. I have this qualification for expressing an opinion, that for something over fifty years I have been engaged, either as a counsel or a Judge or a Lord Justice or a Lord Appeal, in dealing with matters closely analogous to the sort of matters we are discussing here. I really do understand, if I may say so, the general principles of the purchase and sale of land and the way in which people look at that matter, and I have also particular knowledge with regard to leases. I have considered with very great care the Reports of Mr. Justice Uthwatt, as he now is, and Lord Justice Scott. Both these gentlemen are intimate friends of mine, with whom I have been in association practically all my working life. I have the very greatest regard for their opinions, and I am the last person in the country who would scout anything they said. But the problems with which they were confronted were problems of the utmost difficulty and complexity, and I am quite sure that both those gentlemen would agree that it would be quite wrong not to submit what they have said in their respective Reports to the closest scrutiny.
  I want to say—and I do not believe they will hold it against me personally—that beyond all question the White Paper is to my mind a great advance on the Uthwatt Report, and substantially and, subject to one or two qualifications, I think it embodies a scheme which may well be adopted by the Legislature and which, subject to certain qualifications,
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  will represent a very great advance in the management of the land of this country. Therefore what I have just said is not intended in the least to depreciate the value of the labours of those who have been concerned with these two Reports, and of their careful analysis of the difficulties arising from the existing law. That has already been said in paragraph 7 of the White Paper, and I need not enlarge upon it.
  There is only one other general thing I want to say on that point. I believe, and I think most members of this House believe, that owners of land should be fairly treated, like owners of other forms of property. We are not here discussing a wide measure of expropriation without compensation. In this House we want all classes as far as possible to join, after the war, in an honest endeavour to reconstruct a system of civilization which will substantially
  benefit the position, the happiness and the comfort of all classes in the country. We have a most complex system now, and it is very difficult to improve it, but it can be done, and I have no doubt that in great measure this White Paper will help to do it. But nothing could be worse than to start these great measures of improvement of the position of the people by an attack on owners of land, singling them out for an attack and without attacking other owners of property. That would be unwise, and would lead to a very great feeling of hostility on the part of the owners of land.
  And I do think this should be pointed out. It has been to a great extent pointed out already in the very clear speech of the noble Lord, Lord Latham. The immediate vesting of all development rights in undeveloped land in local authorities would, in my opinion, have been a most unwise measure and it would, inter alia, have this disastrous effect that it would practically stop any private enterprise in the building of houses for the working classes. The idea that freeholders of land all over the cotta try should become lessees under this scheme would have been most unpopular in the whole of the country. I accept paragraph 13 of the White Paper as a fair statement of the difficulties inherent in the Uthwatt Report, and for my part I entirely accept what the noble Lord, Lord Latham, said in all the opening part of his speech—a very cogent and clear statement of the difficulties that

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  would arise in carrying out the Uthwatt Report, and of the advantages that will be obtained, so far as regards the matters he mentioned, in accepting the White Paper.
  In the old days it used to be said that an Englishman's home is his castle, but if the Report were adopted in all its particulars think it would be said in the future that the Englishman's home is the property of the local authority, subject to constant supervision on almost every conceivable point by paid officials of the particular body within whose area he was living. I think that would be a very unsatisfactory thing, and it would lead to a great increase in the number of paid officials. Like my noble friends Lord Balfour of Burleigh and Lord Addison, and I am glad to add Lord Latham, I would personally prefer "blitzed" areas to be acquired and held by a Land-holding Commission rather than by the local authorities. I accept, and I rather hope Lord Balfour of Burleigh accepts, the explanation of his proposal which has been given by Lord Latham. I think Lord Samuel to some extent misunderstood the proposal that the noble Lord put before us with regard to that. Planning, as I understood the proposal, will continue to be the duty of the local authorities or aggregations of local authorities in certain cases, but subject of course to the approval of the Minister. What Lord Latham said as to the real truth being that ultimately the Minister is the person to determine whether particular areas of land shall be purchased or not, must continue. We cannot have a new system under which local authorities or any other body can buy land and have the purchase money provided by the Exchequer without any qualification at all. That would be indeed an amusing but impossible proposal. Accordingly, in my opinion, Lord Balfour's proposal is a good one and should be most carefully considered by the Government.
  The next thing I want to say is a word on the subject of the suggested relation between compensation for refusal of permission to develop land and the betterment charge where permission is granted. I am unable to understand, and several of the speakers have also been unable to understand, what logical connexion there is between the two. They are completely
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  different proposals. It would of course be very nice if you could find that any sums which had to be paid out by local authorities for compensation for refusing permission to develop were balanced by the betterment charges coming in in cases where permission was granted; but supposing there would naturally be much greater sums payable for compensation for refusal than for betterment charges over a series of years, which might easily happen, why should then the whole system of planning come to an end or be hampered? I am glad to agree with the noble Lords I have named on that point, and I hope very much that that also will be considered.
  I shall say nothing as to the 80 per cent. Anything I might say has already been said by Lord Chesham, but what I greatly fear is that if the present scheme in the White Paper is adopted without any modification it will tend to prevent the building of houses by existing owners or by speculative builders. In saying that I wish to point out that we are not without some evidence as to what may happen in that direction. The provisions of the Finance Act of 1910 regarding land value taxation to a great extent stopped the building of houses for the working classes by private enterprise. There have been two Reports which ought to be considered in this relation. The first was the Report of the Departmental Committee on the cost of building working-class dwellings published in 1931 (Cmd. Paper 1447), and the second was the Report of the Committee presided over by Sir John Tudor Walters in 1918 (Cmd. Paper 9191). This matter seems to me so important that I commend to the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, what was said in the latter of these two Reports. Sir John Tudor Walters' Committee said that there was a consensus of opinion among the builders and land developers that the Act of 1910 which I have mentioned had seriously retarded the carrying on of their business.
  "The evidence given was that these Duties had arrested the development of building estates, led to the elimination or withdrawal of financial facilities, and retarded investment in house property."
  It is not my proposition that the people were right in the course they took, and it is not my proposition that here the provisions contained in the scheme would necessarily interfere if people had a proper

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  foresight of the probabilities of the betterment proposals. It is this, that uncertainty as to what charges may fall upon land which they are thinking of
  buying prevents people coming forward and buying. They are afraid of what may happen. Omne ignotum pro magnifico est. If you frighten them away you will not get the builders, many of whom are respectable and able men, to come forward and build houses for the working classes. I have taken some pins to ascertain the feelings of builders. I have read half a dozen accounts from the large builders of England, and my belief is that they one and all are of opinion—and certainly scum of them have definitely expressed it— that the Uthwatt Report, fully carried out, would have prevented any of them coming in and building houses. They would have been afraid of it. I am just a little bit afraid myself that if the scheme in the White Paper is adopted there sill be the same reluctance to come in. It is for that reason, and for no other, that I am so much in favour of the view that in order that these houses may be built the land must be purchased and the land must be planned land purchased in the right positions.
  I believe that most or a great number of the local authorities would be in great difficulty if asked to purchase these lands even at the reasonable price suggested in the White Paper. If I could properly shake a finger at the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, I would say to him, "Be very careful that it what you do when you frame your Bill you do not terrify the private builder.; who, as we know, were responsible for between two-thirds and three-fourths of the houses built during the period between the two wars." That is all I can usefully say to-day which has not already been and I therefore repeat my view in conclusion that the present measure is an extremely useful one and we ought to be very grateful to those who have brought it forward.
  3.28 p.m.
  THE EARL OF GLASGOW: My Lords, I shall not keep you more than a quarter of an hour. If I understand the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, aright, the Government have deliberately decided not to lay down a policy on the Barlow Committee's Report until they have had the opinion of Parliament. As Lord Balfollr of Burleigh said in his ex-
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  cellent speech, uncertainty is bad for everyone, and especially bad for the local authorities. I do not know that he used the word "especially" in this connexion, but I am sure he meant it. We have heard from my noble friend who introduced the Motion and from Lord Astor and others about the problems of decongestion and the spillover from the cities. Your Lordships listened to a very interesting speech from the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, on the problems of Plymouth. He rightly demanded that the Government should give some financial help. The problem of Plymouth is the same as the problem of Portsmouth and many other places. But I want to approach this matter from the point of view of county councils. Not very much has been said, at any rate in my hearing—it may have been said when I was out of the House—upon the point of view of county councils who throughout the country are responsible for the allocation of sites for housing schemes in their areas. They will naturally be affected by any policy of decentralization for the cities.
  But before going into that I want to say a word about compensation and betterment. In my opinion, and my opinion has been considerably fortified this afternoon, the whole idea of equating compensation and betterment over any period as short as five years is moonshine. If that were done it would stultify, or at any rate very much hamper, all planning. It is essential that the Government should even be prepared to advance a very substantial sum to the compensation fund or be prepared to say that the balance must be struck over a long period, perhaps over a period of fifty years. But I do not want to deal further with that and will leave that rather thorny subject.
  Now I will return to the difficult position in which county councils are placed by reason of the want of decision on the part of the Government. Local authorities are handicapped because they do not know whether the Government propose to encourage the decongestion of overcrowded areas. They have been asked to do the impossible. They have been asked to prepare sites for housing. They can get on with the routine business of overtaking the arrears of the housing of the population, but they cannot make a completed job because the location of many

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  housing schemes is dependent on the location of new industries. They must also know to what places the Government propose to direct the overspill from the cities, providing of course that decongestion is the Government's policy. The great city of Glasgow, the second city of the Empire, is only twenty miles from the northern part of the county in which I have the honour to live, and naturally we are very interested in this question of spillover. There is no indication whether a policy of decentralizing industry is to be undertaken, so that all that county councils are doing at the present time is to consult the principal industrialists in the areas concerned with a view to ascertaining what chances there may be after the war for the expansion of local industry. I am informed that the Scottish Development Committee have found it very difficult to make any headway owing to the lack of Government policy on industrial development, and this also applies to the Clyde Valley Regional Planning Committee.
  It appears to be Government policy that there should be some control of the location of industry after the war; but it looks as if this may take the form of what is called "negative control." That is to say, industry would not be directed to certain places but rather that any industrialists proposing to develop in certain areas might be refused the assent of the authorities if in their opinion it would not be proper for developments to take place in those particular areas. I should like to ask whether or not it is true that a scheme may be adopted whereby the Government might offer to industrialists certain tangible advantages in certain areas known as development areas, in which they consider it in the public interest that industrial development should take place in view of the unemployment which might arise unless such development occurs. These ideas are all vague and nebulous. We know nothing for certain. What local authorities want is a well-planned scheme for them to work on for the siting of housing schemes and for putting aside areas for future industrial development.
  I sympathize with the Government in their difficulty in coming to a decision on
  these points. Over and above the reason which the noble Lord has given it may be
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  that the Government have decided not to commit themselves to the Barlow Report as far as practical suggestions are concerned because of the expense involved. Perhaps they want first to see what the country's financial position will be after the war. In that I am sure they will have the sympathy of a great many people. But the point I want to make is that if each county has to depend entirely on its own initiative without any indication of planned policy by the Government, that should be known. Speaking for my own area, although we may not be quite satisfied, at any rate we shall know where we are.
  Finally I would like to tell your Lordships something. It is a small thing. In the area of Scotland where I live we want new industries, like everyone else, and we were sorry to hear that a new industry had been allocated to some other place in the North-West. I do not know whether it is the North-West of England, but it was allocated to somewhere in the North-West and not to the County of Ayr. This industry is to be set up for the manufacture of penicillin. It is rather interesting to the town planning committee in my county and also the county council members that the inventor of penicillin, Sir Alexander Fleming, is an Ayrshire man as is also the Minister of Supply, Sir Andrew Duncan. No one therefore can accuse these gentlemen of the misdemeanour of favouritism.
  3.37 p.m.
  THE EARL OF WARWICK: My Lords, we seem to suffer from a minor confusion this afternoon. I understood that the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, was proposing this Motion in order to give a blessing to the White Paper plus a few major suggestions which he himself had to make. We do seem rather as if we had reached the Committee stage of a Bill because we have been going into so much detail in the discussion to-day. Perhaps your Lordships will forgive me if I speak very shortly and very generally in support of the noble Lord. I think we may all avoid details till a later stage.
  We all should be very grateful to the noble Lord because he seems to have done something which I must frankly say I thought would take a very long time to do, which is to get everybody together. My noble friends on the other side of the House have brought this matter of plan-

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  ning up very often and I, and I am sure a lot of others who are called Tories I suppose, do not always see eye to eye with them. But Lord Balfour of Burleigh has succeeded in performing a miracle in that I think we are all agreed on the broad principle that the White Paper is an advance, and not only an advance but a very good advance. He has also shown us what I think are the only two remaining stumbling unlocks. One of them is the question of the actual authority in whom the ownership of land shall be vested. That I think was most profitably cleared up not only in his own speech but in the exposition of the noble Lord, Lord Latham. I fed that the recommendation of a Land-holding Commission is a very good plan.
  I will put the matter in this way. Our debate has been on a fairly high level. The noble Viscount, Lord Astor, has spoken of Plymouth and the noble Lord, Lord Latham, of London. There we have great civic bodies, with an enormous sense of civic responsibility, composed of very intelligent and capable people. But that is not the case by and large all over the country when you get to small towns and rural areas. I am afraid it has been said in more than one case of a man, "He did not get on very well until his brother got on the council." Only a little while ago a right reverend Prelate came to a town to which I live fairly near and he was very upset, and quite rightly, about some appalling slum property. When we inquired into the matter we found it belonged to four members of the town council and that one lot of terrible condemned houses, which had recently been put up for sale as derelict, had been bought by another member of the council as a pure speculation. Such a thing, I am sure, could not happen in London or a great city like Plymouth, but I think it will make us all happier if this Land-holding Commission is created so that we can feel, in dealing with the buying and selling of land, that there is a party which is a stranger to the locality.
  The other thing in which I thought the noble Lord did particularly well, was in getting over the question of compensation. That is a very difficult problem. I doubt whether we ever can be right to discard a financial obligation or to try and avoid paying in full. This country has always had the most remarkable reputa-
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  tion for financial integrity and before we do anything that is too arbitrary, I think we should remember that countries all over the world watch what goes on in the money market of London. However desirable it might be for some authority to secure a piece of ground worth £30,000 for much less money, the use of arbitrary power by Parliament or by a local authority to prevent a private individual or corporation from getting proper and full compensation might create an unpleasant feeling abroad when we have hitherto had so very high a standard. However, there it is. It would not be possible to finance—or to finance quickly anyway—the plans which all our towns have in store. If there must be some sort of compensation fixed at a rate that is not the rate of a free market, then I think the noble Lord's suggestions and the proposals in the White Paper, with the extension of the time limit, are as fair and equitable as they can possibly be.
  The time factor is surely the most important of them all. When the noble Lord, Lord Balfour, said, "Settle, and settle now," he said something with which large numbers of people all over the country will agree. The position may be very difficult. If your Lordships will forgive me relating something with which I was personally concerned, I think it would provide a good illustration. In 1934 it was proposed to make a new bypass road which would run through the middle of my kitchen garden. It was a very sensible thing to do and I was delighted that the garden should be used in that way. The project was not put through because of delays caused by the war. But what I want your Lordships to think of is the position that would arise if that kitchen garden had been carried on as a business. If the owner had been running it well and had spent money on it, he would be in a difficult position if, for years, he had hanging over his head the knowledge that it might be wanted for road purposes, because he would be left in uncertainty as to whether he would have to start afresh somewhere else.
  The noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, has pointed out how worried the building industry has been because of uncertainty. This readjustment period after the war is not going to be easy. It is not going to be an easy matter to get people back to business and to get busi-

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  ness back on a peace-time footing. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, will realize that if we can make business people confident that the Government are their friends and not their enemies it will help in getting jobs done. I will not detain your Lordships longer, but I would like, because I think it will carry a little weight, to say this. By nature I am an anti-planner. I do not like planning very much; I am rather frightened of it. I believe very much more in private enterprise than in the capacity of the local council. But I think that the majority of our fellow countrymen want planning and it would be to adopt a dog-in-the-manger attitude if any of us, once that has been proved, did not do our best to help. The suggestions in the White Paper, I feel, provide a good honest solution to a pretty thorny problem and I should like to give them my fullest help and support.
  3.47 p.m.
  LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I think that in discussing planning we must discuss details, and therefore I shall make no apology for discussing some details today. Before I go further, however, I should like to express gratitude to my noble friend who brought forward this Motion for his extremely fine speech and for giving opportunity for the expressions of opinion which we have heard from all quarters in your Lordships' House. I would like particularly to refer to the speech of the most reverend Prelate which we heard yesterday. I think most of your Lordships will thoroughly agree with him, and I should like myself to endorse what he said, with the exception of one small point. I do not entirely agree with him in his wholesale condemnation of the tenement house. I quite agree that for family life an independent house is superior, but I am a member of the Trades House of Glasgow, which very rightly insists on its members carrying out visitation of the houses. There are cases where tenement houses for old people or for young married couples are superior to individual houses, and I think that is a matter which will have to be considered in future.
  I can speak with some inherited experience of planning because next year will complete four hundred years since a predecessor of mine obtained a charter to erect a burgh of which my family has been
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  the planning authority up to very recently. I do not want to come before your Lordships as laudator temporis acti. I recognize that my day is over and I would like to draw a line and let future generations judge of our work. I think, however, that His Majesty's Government do not really realize the variety and complications of the problems which are going to present themselves when they undertake the planning of the whole country. I have referred to the experience of four hundred years, and I could talk to your Lordships for half an hour on the variety of these problems. I do not want to discourage His Majesty's Government. They are the young heirs succeeding to a new estate with a very low estate duty to pay, so far as I can make out. I wish them well, and I shall be very glad to help them in any way which lies in my power. But I do not think—and I am going to support the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham in this—that they have been exactly helped by the Uthwatt Report.
  In the first place, any drastic report on any subject, which the Government call for, is always bound to introduce a tremendous element of uncertainty into the business of the country, and they have suffered from that. I thought, also, that the Uthwatt Report took too superficial and cursory a view of the problems before them. They did not have enough information. I cite one case to show what I mean. In certain parts of the country, the system of development is for the proprietor to build streets fully equipped with sewers and everything else, and then to sell or feu the land alongside the streets. He receives from the houseowner the feu duty for the land or .the purchase price of the land, and, in addition, as the streets come to be occupied he receives back compensation for the cost of the street. That obtains over a very large part of the country. But you will see that in reckoning their compensation while the Uthwatt Committee were quite prepared to pay for ripe development land they said nothing about things like streets. That is only a detail, but these things require to be considered if you wish to have justice done.
  My noble friend Lord Addison made a point by saying that the situation to-day is due to the system of land ownership. I wish to challenge that, and I may say that I think it has been very effectively challenged already by the noble and

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  learned Viscount, Lord Maugham. The housing shortage was caused by the Budget of 1909, and the taxation of land values. I car illustrate that by giving you my own experience. At that time I was Dogsbody to a firm of surveyors who dealt very largely with land in London, and I was sent to examine the first £99 house that was ever built for sale in North London. I had to see if it came up to the requirements of the proprietors of the land for houses. I had to make a very careful survey of that house, and I recall that it corresponded as nearly as possible—it had a bathroom and fittings—with the kind of house that is to be put up by London Boroughs to-day at a cost of £850. Looking back now I think that it had ratter a better roof than the modern house. After a time, those houses ceased to be built, and the whole system under which those he uses were built has come to an end since then. It is safe to say that there has been no speculation in land in that way, aid to the great loss of the country. There has been a lot of money made out of land, but there has been no building of houses to take a chance. At about the same time as that of which I am speaking we in the north of Scotland built four houses at a cost of each. We have never been able to do that again.
  LORD LATHAM: Did those houses have bathrooms?
  LORD SALTOUN: Not our four houses, but the £99 houses did. I am not desirous of entering into controversy with the noble Lord. I feel rather like Principal Pirie in the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland when, after a very eloquent address by Principal Storey, he said: "You have listened to a very eloquent oration—now I will give you the facts." We have had some very eloquent speeches, and the speakers have, in a number of instances, sought to say that the trouble has always been due to the fault of somebody else. But surely all sides here want to get to a solution of these problems. If we can clear away the fog of debating oratory and get together I am sure that we shall be all very much happier. I am certain that other noble Lords here who have expressed other views have no wish at all to do anything that is wrong or unfair or unjust.
  A very strong point was made by the most reverend Prelate. He asked how
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  you are going to get a corporate spirit into your new boroughs, and he said that to do so would be a matter of great difficulty. I think that it is not going to be so difficult providing you do not accept the Uthwatt idea of putting everything on to leasehold. Not very long ago I was present at a meeting of the feuars at home—that is the houseowners—and one man said to me: "I have worked all my life to raise myself in the world, and one of the principal objects I had in doing so was to have a house of my own." That is one man's expression of view, and it is a view that is shared by many in quite humble positions in life. I venture to suggest that it is a view that should be noted by your Lordships because those are just the kind of people you ought principally to represent. To get a corporate spirit is in itself a tremendous thing, and I believe that house ownership would be a most important factor.
  Another point which came up in another place is of very great importance when we are discussing planning. I read that the Minister of Production stated in another place that the Portal house could be satisfactorily developed at a density of thirteen to the acre as against twelve to the acre for permanent houses. Such a suggestion from anybody who has anything to do with planning terrifies me. The Portal houses require drainage connexions, water connexions, electricity connexions. They require gardens—in fact I may say that probably the great solace of living in a Portal house will be your garden. And we are told that these houses are going to be developed at thirteen to the acre, but when they are replaced by permanent houses these are going to be distributed at the rate of twelve to the acre. I suggest that that is entirely impossible, and I sincerely hope that that is not the view of the planning authority. You must develop the Portal houses at a rate which is commensurate with that which you wish to maintain for permanent development.
  While on the subject of rates of development may I recall that you did me the honour to send me to sit on the Glasgow Housing Commission? The city wished to extend its boundaries and the various counties surrounding it were opposing that extension. We had before us experts appearing on behalf of both sides, and I

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  remember that the principal bone of contention was the proper rate of development for a big city. After about two days of it I began to see how one could get at the real bones of the matter. I said to leading counsel: "Will you please ask your witnesses this—'Supposing money to be no object, what do you say is the optimum rate of development for a great city?'" It must be remembered that with a development rate of one house to the acre the thirteenth man will have half a mile to go for his tram, and will have a worse tramway service. He brought his witnesses back the next day, and they said that the rate was about eight to the acre. I think that the representatives of the City of Glasgow, who were not asked that question, would have said about six to the acre. I hope that when the Government come to plan urban development they will take a very much lower rate than twelve to the acre; I think that eight is the highest average which should be used in the development of this country.
  On the question of compensation, I am very glad to see that the Government have dropped the proposal to have an assessment of betterment on developed land. Any such tax is bound to be a very severe tax on inflation, and all compensation, if based on supposed values at a date in 1939, is going to be a tax on inflation. If money becomes cheaper the values will rise, and we shall have a very heavy tax to pay to the Government not on the increased utility and the actual value of the property but on the rate at which it is assessed in a depreciated currency. That is a very serious matter, and it applies to any datum line for fixing compensation. It means either that the Government may be forced into a course which is essentially dishonest or that, in order to keep their honour, they may be forced to adopt financial measures which on other grounds they would not undertake. I entirely agree with what was said by my noble friend Lord
  Glasgow and others, that it is ridiculous to suggest that five years is the proper time to take when dealing with this question of compensation. In planning regard must be had to the future. I think that fifty years is the shortest possible time to take, and even fifty years would be low in a matter spch as this.
  4.2 p.m.
  LORD MESTON: My Lords, I wish to say only a few words about this very important and very interesting subject. The Motion refers to decentralization and decongestion, and therefore I hope that I shall be in order if I confine myself strictly to those words. I should like to draw attention to the remarkable growth of population and consequent congestion in the southern and south-eastern parts of England. Between 1801 and 1937 the population of London and the six Home Counties increased by 526 per cent. to 11,843,000. During that same period the population of the rest of Great Britain increased by 274 per cent. to 32,165,000. Let us consider for a moment what those figures mean. In 1937, the population of London and the six Home Counties was equivalent to the population of the whole of Canada, and was one-and-a-half times as great as the population of Australia. To take a more recent and narrower period of time, between 1931 and 1939 England and Wales increased in population by 3·77 per cent. to 41,460,000, and the fourteen counties in South-East England increased by 8·34 per cent. to 14,602,900. In 1939, therefore, the population of the fourteen counties in South-East England was one-and-a-quarter times the population of the whole of Canada, and twice the population of Australia.
  It appears to me, therefore, that the problem of decentralization and decongestion has very special reference to the situation which exists in the south and south-east of England. Whatever may be the attractions of being near to London, it is in my view essential that the drift of population to the south and south-east of England should be checked. One way to achieve this object is to prevent further industrial development in those areas. If I may make a suggestion to the Board of Trade, it would be that when they come to issue licences for factories after the war they should issue those licences for sites as far away from London as possible. I appreciate the fact that transport facilities are essential to the siting of factories, but it appears to me that the problem of transport is not likely to be made any easier by siting factories in parts of England which are already seriously overcrowded.
  In conclusion, I should like to say that I can never understand why the east

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  coast of Scotland is not made more available for industrial development. As your Lordships know, the climate there is very salubrious—for people who know no other. There is plenty of space, and the transport facilities are capable of considerable expansion. The point which I desire to make is that you will never obtain any real measure of decentralization and decongestion by the construction of sell-contained satellite towns and garden cities in the Home Counties. In my view, the only way to obtain any substantial measure of decentralization and decongestion is by inducing individuals and their families and their interests to go away from the congested areas of southern and south-eastern England to parts of the country which are at present under-populated. I hope that when the Government come to consider this question they will bear in mind the amenities and potentialities of the east coast of Scotland, and that they will do everything that they can to further industry there and to draw it away from the areas where it is already too heavily situated.
  4.8 p.m.
  LORD REITH: My Lords, when I first read this Motion I did not think much of it, and I do not think much of it now. It seemed to me just such a Motion as must automatically be accepted by the Government or automatically withdrawn—another pleasant afternoon, and a good time to be had by all. "That the decentralization, decongestion and redevelopment of our big towns do constitute a primary object" of Government policy—imagine the impression such a Motion would make on the citizen of any country where planning has been taken seriously for years. A pathetic declaration of the most banal and elementary obvious which might have been
  appropriate in 1894 but not in 1944. But the Motion was sponsored by Lord Balfour of Burleigh. There must be more in it than meets the eye, and from his speech yesterday—both from what he said and equally from what he did not say—there is much more in it than meets the eye. His asking the Government to accept the Motion is neither here nor there—the Government were bound to do so—but he said a great deal more which he hoped that the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, anyhow might accept, and for which Lord
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  Woolton might set himself to secure Government acceptance. I suspect that Lord Balfour of Burleigh has done a good deal of the Government's work for them in producing suggestions which he hopes, and perhaps has reason to believe, the members of all Parties might in fact accept faute de mieux.
  I cannot myself follow the obstetric metaphor employed by the noble Lords, Lord Balfour of Burleigh and Lord Woolton, yesterday, about this White Paper, without indelicacy. Let us, get another from Bluebeard. "Sister Anne, Sister Anne" we have called for years with increasing indignation and increasing despair. For "Sister Anne" read Brother Wyndham, Brother Shakes, and Brother Fred in turn. And Sister Anne has told us of clouds of dust on the horizon. We hazarded conjectures at the cause of the dust. But dust is excellent if from it emerges some figure of deliverance and salvation. Who arrives? Who is this whom Lord Woolton would have us welcome? Who is the figure of salvation and deliverance depicted there? He is certainly covered with the dust of travel and of conflict, but he seems to have visited places of refreshment and to have become involved in many a local brawl on his route. We feel that he is a sorry spectacle.
  After all these years, after all the travail of the mountains, what have we here? This is not a settlement, it is a pious aspiration to a settlement, and it is another deferment, another tribute to the irreconcilabilities of the political system. Five years—is that the clue? In five years a Conservative Government may be in power, which might compensate landlords 100 per cent.; or a Labour Government will be in power, which might give no compensation at all. So Lord Balfour of Burleigh comes along and, adopting the expedient so common in life, adds up and divides by two. Very well, let us have that. I come to support Lord Balfour of Burleigh. I support his fifty-fifty suggestion, but I am afraid I would support almost anything to have a settlement now.
  More than three years ago, as the noble Lords, Lord Latham, Lord Astor and others will remember, local authorities were told to plan boldly and comprehensively and, in doing so, not to be deterred by considera-

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  tions of finance or of local boundaries. It is a melancholy thought, but perhaps those local authorities who did not do so were wiser and more prescient than those who did. Anyhow, I submit that to-day we are apparently—perhaps two minutes from now when the noble Lord speaks one may change one's mind; I hope so—no nearer a settlement of these two fundamental problems of finance (particularly compensation and betterment) and boundaries. Vested interests —and in vested interests I include local authorities and Party politics—are apparently too strong even for the noble Lord, Lord Woolton. Are they? I have come here to-day to tell him that no vested interest of any sort need be too strong for him because he has the urgent good will of the country behind him in this matter. I hope he will not disappoint us by another deferment. We appeal to him to settle the boundaries issue and to settle the issue of compensation and betterment, either along the lines of Lord Balfour of Burleigh's suggestion or on some better scheme of his own devising. And we appeal to him to settle now.
  4.15 p.m.
  THE MINISTER OF RECONSTRUCTION (LORD WOOLTON): My Lords, I must once again thank the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, for having brought up this peculiarly worded Resolution. I am bound to admit to your Lordships that I never read a word beginning with "de" or hear a word like "decongestion" spoken without a sense of guilt because I had something to do with the origin of the horrible word "dehydration" and I would, if I had more ability and time, have liked to find a word which would not have started this dreadful practice. I accepted the Resolution yesterday because I did not want there to be any doubt about where the Government—as I interpret my colleagues' views—have stood on this general question of planning.
  The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, said that he was not quite sure that my intervention in the debate had been of any particular value—he said it eloquently and courteously, of course—because I had not expounded the White Paper. Well, I did not want to expound the White Paper. I realized that your Lordships had all read it, and that it was fresh in your minds. It had been prepared with meti-
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  culous care, so I thought it was unnecessary for me to burden your Lordships with any observations on it, except very general ones. But I repeat again what I said yesterday—and the noble Lord who has just spoken, and who always speaks of me much more kindly than I deserve, knows it from his past experience—that it is not any use trying to pretend that political divergencies do not exist. It is not any use condemning them. Of course, men will hold their opinions with great conviction and sincerity, and we have had divergence of view, as you are bound to have in a Coalition Government. I imagine that on this issue perhaps you might have had divergence of view even in a Government that was not a Coalition Government. I think we have made remarkable advance when we have got so far towards a basis of agreement. And, whilst I said when I first come into office that I would try to get that agreement, I am bound to say that half-way through that period of seven months I almost despaired of our being able to find this common plan. I submitted it to your Lordships, not asking you to agree to it, but asking you to criticize it so that we might, as a Government, try to benefit by the debate.
  I think this has been a very remarkable debate. The speeches that have been made have been of very great value. I am going, quite quickly if I may, to try to deal with as many of the points that have been raised as I can, and if I do not reply to some of your Lordships then I hope you will acquit me of discourtesy. The first complaint that was made yesterday, I think both by the most reverend Prelate and by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, was that the White Paper did not lay down any principles on which the Government think that planning should be conducted. What the White Paper and the Bill in another place seek between them to do is to sketch the legislative framework within which national planning can be worked in principle and in practice. Neither the White Paper nor the Bill attempts to paint the picture for which the framework is designed, but the Government have already announced, as I said yesterday, that one of the principles on which they propose to work is that of the balanced distribution of industry. They mean this principle to apply not only to so-called

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  development areas but to all parts of the country to which the principle may prove to be applicable. Further, certain general principles of town and country
  planning have already been announced by the Government. Let me give some examples. The recent Report of the Central Advisory Committee on the Design of Dwellings contains an appendix on lay-out which has been prepared by the Ministry of Town and Country Planning. The Housing Manual issued last Monday week covers questions of site planning and lay-out. It is intended to issue other manuals from time to time as general principles begin to emerge and—may I make this point?—as they begin to emerge from the local plans that are being sent in for consideration. A mass of opinion is being accumulated in this central Ministry—opinion which has its source, in part, in local opinion all over the country.
  I was a little afraid yesterday, in talking of a master plan, of appearing to be sarcastic, because sarcasm is terribly cheap, and it does not do any good to deride other people's opinions; but I am rather afraid of this idea of Whitehall creating a master plan for this country. There are many people who say—I have read it in the Press time and again "Where is the master plan?" It is a good phrase with which to attack the Government, but I do not believe it would be good Government policy to have such a master plan. Nevertheless there are principles which can be applied all over the country which are constituent parts of a master plan. The avoidance of overcrowding is one of these principles. In every plan for the "blitzed" cities so far examined—and my right honourable friend the Minister of Town and Country Planning has examined many—substantial decongestion has already been provided for. I agree entirely with the most reverend Prelate (the Archbishop of York) that it would be wholly wrong for us to attempt to build on congested areas which have been "blitzed." The most reverend Prelate feared that future housing would continue the pre-war tendency to destroy community life. I hope it will not. The necessity for preserving the sense of community, the desirability of planning in neighbourhood units, has been emphasized in every relevant manual and in every
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  relevant circular which has been issued either by the Minister of Town and Country Planning or by the Minister of Health.
  I gather from subsequent conversation with the noble Lord. Lord Balfour of Burleigh, that he was disappointed that I did not come out with greater emphasis on the subject of the size of towns. Let me see if this will satisfy him. I should like to express my cordial sympathy with the view put forward by the noble Lord that the tendency of big towns to become indefinitely bigger must be corrected, and that it would be a sound principle gradually to substitute balanced redevelopment with proper regard not only for the economic wisdom of broad-based industrial and commercial life, but also for the importance of people living in units of a size which makes a proper civic life possible. That is a cautious statement, but I hope it will leave the noble Lord in no doubt as to where I stand.
  I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Addison, for his speech and his concurrence. It is an important thing that the Leader of the Opposition should have spoken so favourably as he did with regard to this White Paper. He condemned it for some of the things which are not in it. He thought it was the duty of the Government to deal with agricultural methods, but that was not the business of the White Paper. The Paper never set out to deal with agricultural methods. But the White Paper would give complete power to local and central planning authorities to ensure that all land that ought to be reserved for agriculture should be so reserved in future. I hope that statement would satisfy the noble Lord if he were here that we do, at any rate, preserve agricultural land.
  The noble Lord, Lord Chesham, made a speech late last night, and I personally regret that so few noble Lords were here to listen to it. I found it a most valuable speech. I found it valuable on its own account, and valuable also because it came from the noble Lord. He gave support to this White Paper in principle, although I am bound to say that he showed a reasonable reticence when it came to the question of pounds, shillings and pence and how much the compensation should be. I make no complaint of that reticence. Many of your Lordships have commented on the fact that perhaps

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  there would be a five years' delay in settling the measure of compensation. I am afraid nobody has given any support to that particular clause in the White Paper and I think it is just as well that His Majesty's Government should recognize that there has not been any support for it, however much that may be regretted. I hope, however, that your Lordships will not exaggerate the position. One of your Lordships this afternoon, I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, said it would be ridiculous that planning should be confined to a period of five years. That is no part of the suggestion.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: May I interpose? That is not what the noble Lord meant. He was referring to the suggestion that the equation of betterment and compensation should be made during a period of five years.
  LORD WOOLTON: I am grateful to the noble Lord for what he has said. That of course is not the suggestion. The truth is that we have spent a very large amount of time with the Treasury and we should be a very bad Government if we did not keep an eye on the Treasury.
  LORD LATHAM: Hear, Hear. Both ways.
  LORD WOOLTON: We are asking for vast sums, millions of pounds day after day. First one Minister and then another goes
  to the Treasury with some proposal that is going to incur large expenditure. I have great sympathy with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in saying "No" very frequently. These schemes mount up the expenditure, and when anyone looks at the national bill that we are piling up as a result of the war and at all the things we are going to do to make a better world one sees that it is a very considerable bill indeed. We should be very unwise if we allowed our enthusiasm for any particular project to get out of balance with sound national finance. It was because of that feeling that the Government decided it would be a good thing if they could get a period during which they could estimate what the costs were likely to be and so they put in a period of five years. I rather gather that if a Bill comes before your Lordships with a clause to that effect in it, it will not meet with such a good
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  reception as many other clauses in such a Bill seem to have in prospect. Do not let us think that this uncertainty is going to apply to the whole of the land of England. Some 85 per cent. of the area of England and Wales is at present open country, and this 85 per cent. (or probably 90 per cent.) does not now, and did not in 1939, possess any development value at all. The whole of this large proportion of the area of land of the country will be totally unaffected by the proposal to postpone the assessment of payment of compensation. I think I realize that your Lordships wish the Government to give further consideration to that matter before they bring in a Bill.
  The noble Lord, Lord Astor, made, I thought, a most powerful speech yesterday. He based that speech on the immediate practical considerations of a man who has done noble work for the conception of using "blitzed" areas to make grander towns. As a result of his speech yesterday I have had further conversations with him this morning, to see if we cannot do something to meet some of the points that he raised. The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, asked how far the policy of federating local planning authorities had been carried out. Let me give him the information that has been sent to me by the Ministry since then. This policy has already been to a large extent accomplished under the Town and Country Planning Act of 1932. The total number of local authorities in England and Wales who can make plans is 1,441. Of this total no fewer than 1,021 have by now become members of joint planning committees which to-day number 179. Many more of these joint committees are in process of formation. I hope your Lordships will realize that these joint committees are not advisory but are executive bodies.
  I come now to to-day's most excellent debate. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Latham, for the very constructive speech that he made. He was good enough to place before us in a most reasoned way that vast experience that he has obtained from his association with local government in London. I will endeavour to answer almost categorically the questions he asked me. He asked whether compensation and betterment is to be run on a receipts and payments basis. The answer is "No." He also asked whether separate accounts were to

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  be kept for the regional areas. I think he was making fun there. The answer is "No." Then he asked, in what point of time will this balance occur? The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, raised this question yesterday. I have been rather surprised as the debate has gone on, that this point has been raised. It shows how even the meticulous language in which White Papers are printed sometimes fails to convey the meaning intended. The point arises on paragraph 29 of the White Paper:
  The processes of planning and development in all their aspects will, therefore, be so managed as ultimately to secure such a balance.
  That, I think the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, interpreted as meaning that compensation and betterment would be weighed in order that we might see when the balance was going to happen. The operative word is "ultimately."
  In fact what we had in mind is this. Here was a certainty of very heavy compensation being paid. Here was a prospect, a very hopeful prospect—I think I would buy it as an option in the commercial world—of betterment coming in. So, quite properly, the financial pundits said: "Yes, that is all right, we see we are going to pay out. When do we balance?" The reply is "Ultimately." I believe they would balance ultimately, that over a long period of time the amount of betterment will more than equal the amount of compensation. But our language has been at fault because so many of your Lordships have thought that the two things were going to be mutually dependent upon one another. In any legislation that will be—
  VISCOUNT SAMUEL: There is another passage in the White Paper to which the noble Lord has not referred. It is at the bottom of page 8, where it is said:
  "The payment of compensation and the collection of betterment charge will cease to be the responsibility of local authorities and will be centralized in a Land Commission. This proposal has been framed on the assumption that the control of the use of land will be so managed that over a reasonable period of years, and over the country as a whole, receipts of betterment charge will broadly balance the payments of fair compensation."
  Planning has got to be managed so that the amount to he paid out in compensation shall not exceed the amount expected to be recouped in betterment over a
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  reasonable period of years. That is the particular provision to which we have taken exception.
  LORD WOOLTON: I think the language justifies it, but I do not think the facts will. I think it was a proper precaution. I stand by that without any hesitation at all. I have seen plans produced in this country that were so excessive in their expenditure that I was perfectly clear that it would be unwise to expend so much money. Somewhere we must see that the amount of compensation must have some reasonable chance of balancing the amount we can get in betterment. I agree that the language may not be as explicit as it ought to have been, but I make this statement quite definitely that it is not our intention to allow planning to be determined by some outside financial body. That was the specific question that was asked. I make this statement also, that it will have to be conducted in a sensible manner and with proper regard to the economic factors that are involved. I knew I would have your Lordships' agreement on that. Let me point out another thing. This betterment charge is going to be accumulating indefinitely in point of time and because it is going to be accumulating the country can afford to take a long-dated view on the subject. That I am sure is what you would desire. I was asked whether betterment charge is to be continuous. The answer is "Yes."
  I do not know whether I am entering into a digression or not, but the noble Lord, Lord Latham, pointed out that we were not going to collect all the betterment by this means and that there was a great deal that arose from social activities that would not be collected at all. That is quite true, but the contrary also happens. Sometimes as a result of the movement of industry, sometimes as a result of the introduction of improved social services, the value of land goes down. There would be no compensation for that reason under this scheme. I think there we have done something towards rough justice.
  Then the noble Lord asked me whether the Land Commission would be the determining factor in planning. I wonder if your Lordships would allow me to refer to a statement made in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister of

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  Town and Country Planning yesterday. The noble Lord, Lord Latham, I think raised the question. I have a note here on the subject of open spaces. What it says is this:
  "Provision will be made in subsequent legislation that some form of financial assistance will be-made available for the acquisition by local authorities of approved open spaces in places where the provision of such open spaces would otherwise impose an undue financial burden upon the authority."
  It was suggested to me that it might help to clarify matters if I made that statement.
  LORD LATHAM: It certainly does.
  LORD WOOLTON: Another thing which many of your Lordships discussed was something that we have not proposed in this Paper; that is, that there should be a Land-buying Commission. I am most grateful for the debate on that. The fact is that we considered it at great length and we finally came to the conclusion that such a Commission would perhaps not be acceptable to local authorities. It is very interesting that the noble Lord, Lord Latham, much to my surprise if he will forgive my saying so, said to-day that local authorities would welcome it.
  LORD LATHAM: May I be allowed to interrupt? It really must not go out from here that I had expressed the views of other local authorities. I said I would welcome it. I was not speaking for other local authorities.
  LORD WOOLTON: I am very much obliged for the correction. But we pay great regard to the experience of the noble Lord in these matters. There has been great support throughout the debate for the appointment of such a Commission. I make no other statement about it than to say that so much support is something which His Majesty's Government must recognize. May I now turn to the speech which the noble Earl, Lord Glasgow, made this afternoon? I thought he was a little less than just to His Majesty's Government and to me when he said we would not give any opinion on the Barlow Report. Do not let us get these Reports bound too closely in their bindings. What matters is the principles that come out of these Reports. When I said it would be the policy of His Majesty's Government to apply the principle of getting a balance of industry all over the country and not
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  to confine it directly to the Special Areas, that was a statement which I think the authors of that Report would welcome and it is a statement that I make without any hesitation as expressing the views of His Majesty's Government. The noble Earl said that there was a feeling of uncertainty among industrialists.
  THE EARL OF GLASGOW: Not a feeling of uncertainty among industrialists; a feeling of uncertainty among local authorities with regard to the siting of housing schemes.
  LORD WOOLTON: Of uncertainty with regard to their housing schemes. I can assure your Lordships that we would be very glad to do anything we could to relieve their uncertainty. We have asked them to send in their plans, and to let us know what they want to do. They are the people who prepare the plans for housing, and we are most anxious to do everything that can be done to hasten the development of housing. As regards the location of industry our position is quite clear. We propose to say to industrialists who desire to carry out developments in towns in a manner which would he prejudicial to the interests of those places: "We do not want you to come here. Will you please find another and more suitable place for your purpose elsewhere?" That kind of negative control I think is going to be of great value.
  I was very grateful to the Earl of Warwick for again giving us substantial support for these proposals. Lord Meston made what I thought was an eloquent appeal, a sort of advertising appeal, on behalf of the East of Scotland. (How much some of us would like to go there now!) Lord Saltoun gave me a word of warning. He said that he had had four hundred years of experience in planning, and he asked dad not the Government realize the complications into which they were going? Believe me, we do not need anyone to tell us about the complications of the problems that are in front of us.
  I wish to finish—I have kept your Lordships for an unduly long time, but I had to reply to specific points which have been made—by expressing my great gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh. As Lord Reith has said, he has very often given me a great deal of personal help from his great knowledge of housing and of planning. I am grateful

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  to him for having brought this Motion forward in spite of the particular language that he used in the process. I am extremely grateful for the opportunity which the debate has given us at this comparatively early date of expressing an opinion upon this White Paper. The conclusion I draw from the debate is that the White Paper has met with a very good reception, that the principles of compromise have been recognized as being wise, and that it has provided us with a basis on which we might reasonably bring forward legislation expecting that it would meet with the support of your Lordships, always provided that we dealt in certain ways with one or two points in the Paper. I think that the outstanding feature of the debate has been that you have said: "Well here's a subject of very great difficulty, we doubt whether any amount of consideration will enable you to arrive at a perfect financial solution, and so, being good business men, let us settle now and settle quickly, and let us be prepared to accept whatever compromise is involved in that." I hope that I have interpreted your Lordships' expressions of views correctly and I again apologize for having detained you for rather a lengthy period.
  4.45 p.m.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I shall keep your Lordships for only a few minutes, but there are one or two points which I think must have a little more attention. My noble friend Lord Woolton has been very kind in many things, and I now desire to say one word on the question of the period over which compensation and betterment is to be equated. Attention has been called to two passages from the White Paper which gave rise to apprehensions—happily now declared by my noble friend to be unfounded—that the period of equation was going to be a short one. One further passage I think was bound to give rise to that impression. Will my noble friend kindly look at paragraph 32? This states:
  "An Expert Committee will be appointed before the end of the five year period, and will be asked to assemble and review the material on which to base recommendations to the Government for determining the right compensation to be paid, and to make recommendations. In the main, two sets of consideration will come before the Committee. On the one hand, they will need to make an estimate of the development likely to take
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  place within a foreseeable future and of the annual income in Betterment Charge that might be expected to accrue from it. In this task they will receive guidance from the actual development then occurring, and from the information that will be put at their disposal as to the future programme of public and private development and as to economic prospects in general. On the other hand, the Committee will receive all the valuations prepared by the Government valuers in accordance with the preceding paragraph. They will he asked to examine the possibility of classifying the individual valuations under appropriate categories in the light of the information regarding likelihood of development recorded by the valuers; and of graduating the formula for compensation accordingly …"
  That does tend to lead to the conclusion that, over the period of five years they are going to look at what betterment is coming in and settle compensation in relation to it. I am delighted to hear that that is a total misapprehension. The noble Lord has reassured me very much by the extremely favourable things he said about the need for a long view, and I am quite certain now that apprehensions to which I alluded can be very largely dissipated if the noble Lord can get his way. He said that we were not going to be influenced in our planning by any outside financial body. It was not the influence of any outside financial body that I feared—it was the dead hand of the Treasury. That is the financial body of which I am afraid, and that is the one which the noble Lord has got to persuade.
  LORD LATHAM: It is very much an inside body.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: There are just two other points which have been raised in the course of this debate to which I wish to allude. With regard to proposals which I made, I do not in the least object to being told that they were not included in my Motion. It would have been a very long Motion indeed had all the proposals which I outlined been included. There has, I think, been only one discordant note in the debate and that was struck by the noble Viscount opposite who I am very sorry to see has
  left the House before I have had the opportunity to say what I feel bound to say about his speech. His attitude is perfectly logical. He does not believe in national planning. He said that big cities were perfectly all right, and that
  after London has been reformed by the noble Lord sitting opposite, and after Birmingham has been reformed they are going to be perfect. I do not

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  agree holding the view that he does hold the noble Viscount is not interested in national planning, and his idea of planning is planning done by local authorities io preserve a bit of coastline or rural area. He is not interested in the principles of national planning which I am so much concerned to support. I can only say that his attitude is out of date.
  There is one other very small point to which I would like to refer. Lord Latham intimated that he does not approve of my suggestion of 5o per cent. because he said: "5o per cent. of what?" The answer is 5o per cent. of the estimated development value at March 31, 1939. He went on to say that a great deal of information will shortly become available as to the future trend of development. That is surely irrelevant. The noble Lord is deserting the principle of the basis of March, 1939.
  LORD LATHAM: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission I should like to say that the development value which any piece of land possessed at March, 1939, depends upon what were the estimates of its development, and the estimates of its development will be determined by such planning and reallocation of industry as may follow.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: That is not my understanding of development value at March, 1939. I thought that the merit of the March, 1939, value was that it disregarded profit and loss due to the war, and I think that that is fair. It is not possible to get absolute justice in this world, but I do not think that people should suffer by the war or profit by the war to a greater extent than can be helped. However, I do not want to quarrel with the noble Lord; he was extremely kind, and I am most grateful to him for the admirable way in which he dealt with the noble Viscount, Lord
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  Samuel. He did so much better than I could have done, and I propose on that point to let the debate speak for itself. I should like to thank all those of your Lordships who have supported what I said, as almost all of you have, and in particular to express my most grateful thanks to my noble friend who replied. Nobody could be kinder and more sympathetic. We know that his heart is in the right place, and we know that if it can be done he will produce a Bill which will give us what we want.
  5.1 p.m.
  LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, I should not like it to be thought that those of us in this part of the House fail to realize the immense advance which the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, has made in securing agreement on at least three vitally important principles on which we have never had agreement before. All of us on these Benches realize how important that is, and appreciate that after the miracle of getting agreement on religious education in the Education Bill we have here the even more remarkable miracle of getting agreement on the questions with regard to land in which the Liberal Party has been interested for so long. The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, has had to go to a meeting of scientists, but had he been here I am sure he would have agreed with me that we yield to none in our admiration for the work which the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, has done in securing agreement. The only thing we ask for now is what he promised us in his last words—action now. That is what we want.
  LORD WOOLTON: I am very grateful to the noble Lord.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  House adjourned at two minutes past five o'clock.