Sitting of 30 November 1944

Preamble
The House met at Eleven o'Clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  TEMPORARY MODIFICATION OF STANDING ORDERS
  The Chairman of Ways and Means (Major Milner): I beg to move,
  "That, notwithstanding anything in the Standing Orders relating to Private Business during the present Session,—

  (a) Standing Order 242 shall have effect as if for the Proviso to that Order the following Proviso were substituted: 'Provided always that the provisions of this Standing Order shall not apply to an adjournment from a day in one week to a day in the following week';

  (b) where by virtue of any Order in Council any functions of any Minister have been transferred to some other Minister references in any Standing Order to the Minister from whom the functions have been transferred shall so far as the Standing Order relates to the subject matter of the transferred functions have effect as if for such references there were substituted references to the Minister to whom the functions have been transferred and references to any 'Ministry' shall be construed accordingly;

  For the purpose of this Order 'Minister' shall include any Government Department;
  (c) where by any Standing Order there is required to be deposited an ordnance map or a map published prepared or approved by the Ordnance Survey the deposit of a photographic copy of an ordnance map shall be sufficient compliance with the requirement;
  Provided that where the map to be deposited is required to be on a specified scale the photographic copy shall be on that scale;
  (d) where it is intended to make application for a Private Bill a draft of the notices relating to the Bill proposed to be published in accordance with the requirements of Standing Orders 10 and 11 shall twenty-one days at least before the 4th day of December be deposited at the office of the Ministry of Information.
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  If it appears to the Minister of Information that the publication of such notices in accordance with those Orders would be contrary to the national interest he shall not later than seven days before the said date so notify the Promoters of the Bill and the Chairman of Ways and Means and in that case those notices shall not be published and in lieu thereof such notices of the proposed Bill shall be published within such time and in such manner as the Chairman of Ways and Means may direct.
  Where the Minister does not issue any such notification the notices as published shall not differ from the draft deposited with him except so far as he by general or special direction may allow.
  In the case of a Bill for which the Petition is deposited or proposed to be deposited by leave of the House after the 27th day of November the provisions of this Order shall apply subject to the following modification that is to say for the reference to the 4th day of December there shall be substituted a reference to the date on which the Petition for the Bill is deposited in the Committee and Private Bill Office."
  It has been usual at the beginning of each Session during the war to obtain the approval of the House for the temporary modification of certain of the Standing Orders relating to Private Business. This Motion is identical with that moved in previous years, except that I am not proposing two of the paragraphs that were included last year. One is concerned with petitions on Private Bills and is unnecessary owing to the fact that the date formerly mentioned in it, namely, 27th November, is now past. The other one enabled the Committee and Private Bill Office to be closed earlier than the hours laid down in the Standing Orders. The relaxation of the black-out makes this also unnecessary and the office can revert to the normal time of closing.
  Question put, and agreed to.

PRIVATE BILLS and PRIVATE BUSINESS
Return ordered,
"of the number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders introduced into the House of Commons and brought from the House of Lords, and of Acts passed in Session 1943–44:
Of all the Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which in Session 1943–44 have been reported on by Committees on Opposed Private Bills or by Committees nominated partly by the House and partly by the Committee of Selection, together with the names of the selected Members who served on each Committee; the first and also the last day of the sitting of each Com-

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mittee; the number of days on which each Committee sat; the number of days on which each selected Member has served; the number of days occupied by each Bill in Committee; the Bills the Preambles of which were reported to have been proved; the Bills the Preambles of which were reported to have been not proved; and, in the case of Bills for confirming Provisional Orders, whether the Provisional Orders ought or ought not to be confirmed:
Of all Private Bills and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which, in Session 1943–44 have been referred by the Committee of Selection to the Committee on Unopposed Bills, together with the names of the Members who served on the Committee; the number of days on which the Committee sat; and the number of days on which each Member was summoned and on which each Member attended:
And, of the number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders withdrawn or not proceeded with by the parties, those Bills being specified which have been referred to Committees and dropped during the sittings of the Committee."—[The Deputy-Chairman.]

PUBLIC BILLS
Return ordered,
"Of Public Bills, distinguishing Government from other Bills, introduced into this House, or brought from the House of Lords, during Session 1943–44; showing the number which received the Royal Assent; the number which were passed by this House, but not by the House of Lords; the number passed by the House of Lords, but not by this House; and distinguishing the stages at which such Bills as did not receive the Royal Assent were dropped or postponed and rejected in either House of Parliament."—[The Deputy-Chairman.]

PUBLIC PETITIONS
Return ordered,
"Of the number of Public Petitions presented and printed in Session 1943–44, with the total number of signatures in that Session."—[The Deputy-Chairman.]

SELECT COMMITTEES
Return ordered,
"Of the number of Select Committees appointed in Session 1943–44, the Chairmen's Panel and the Court of Referees; the subjects of inquiry; the names of the Members appointed to serve on each, and of the Chairman of each; the number of days each Committee met, and the number of days each Member attended; the total expense of the attendance on witnesses at each Select Committee, and the name of the Member who moved for such Select Committee; also the total number of Members who served on Select Committees."—[The Deputy-Chairman.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  EXPLOSION, R.A.F. DEPOT, BURTON-ON-TRENT
  Mr. Gretton(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Air if he can make a statement to the House concerning the disaster which occurred on Monday, 27th November, at an R.A.F. maintenance unit near Burton-on-Trent.
  The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): The accident took place shortly before noon on 27th November, at an ammunition depot near Burton-on-Trent, when an explosion occurred in part of an underground storage depot containing high explosive and incendiary bombs. The depot includes a number of tunnels running into a hillside from various directions; the section where the explosion occurred is widely separated from the remainder. This section is very seriously damaged but the main part of the depot and the administrative buildings received no significant damage and issues of bombs to meet operational requirements are proceeding. The total loss of bombs is less than 4,000 tons no more than has been dropped in a single raid on Germany.
  I deeply regret that this disaster has been attended by severe loss of life and damage to private property. The latest information available indicates that 7 Air Ministry employees lost their lives in the explosion and that 20 more are missing and are presumed to have been killed. In addition, 10 have been injured and detained in hospital for treatment. I am informed by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Home Security that the casualties among other civilians living and working in the vicinity are as follow:

  Killed

  …

  9

  Missing, believed killed

  …

  23

  Missing

  …

  9

  Injured

  …

  3

  All possible assistance was immediately organised by the R.A.F. authorities in conjunction with the Regional Commissioner and British soldiers and airmen, American soldiers, contingents of the Civil Defence and National Fire Services and other helpers were untiring in their efforts to rescue the injured.

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  Steps have been taken to relieve the immediate distress caused by the accident and to convey help and sympathy to the injured and the bereaved. Repair to damaged houses will be arranged as speedily as possible. A court of inquiry has been ordered to investigate the circumstances of the accident, but there is no reason to think that it was due to enemy action.
  The House will wish me to express its deepest sympathy with the relatives of all who have lost their lives and with those who have suffered injury.
  Mr. Gretton: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, which I am sure will be much appreciated by those living in the vicinity of the disaster, may I ask him to give a definite assurance that those who have suffered loss will be treated, in every respect, as if the cause of the disaster was enemy action?
  Sir A. Sinclair: There is a technical difficulty in that matter. If the disaster was due to enemy action, the responsibility for compensation would not rest with me, but if the preliminary impression that it was not due to enemy action is correct, compensation to civilians for the loss of life and property will be the responsibility of my Department. In the meantime, officials have been sent down to give help, and payments, to those who have suffered, and who urgently require help.
  Mr. Manningham-Buller: May I ask my right hon. Friend to bear in mind the treatment which was extended towards those who suffered in the Bethnal Green disaster, even though that was not due to enemy action?
  Sir A. Sinclair: I cannot do more. I have sent officials down there with money in their pockets, and they will ensure that advance payment of compensation which is due is made promptly.
  Earl Winterton: Subject, of course, to security, will a full report of the inquiry be published as soon as possible after it is received, together with a clear statement of the Government's policy as to how compensation is to be paid to these people?
  Sir A. Sinclair: I think the statement is quite clear. Action has been taken
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  promptly to provide compensation to those who require it. As regards the publication of the report of the inquiry, I should prefer to wait until I see it.
  Sir Irving Albery: May I ask the Prime Minister whether this is in any sense a matter for a departmental reply as it is one which may concern any part of the population at any time? While appreciating that it may not be possible to give a detailed reply at the present moment, may we have some assurance that these people will be treated on the same level as any one who has suffered from enemy action?
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill)——
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  The Prime Minister: I thank the House very much for their courtesy and kindness.
  In answer to the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend (Sir I. Albery), it would seem in accordance with broad justice that, through whatever channel relief is administered, the result should be practically the same to the victims. I am not able to say straight away whether that is the way in which our existing Regulations will work, but we will go into the matter, and if there is a discrepancy between them, it will be for the House to express its opinion on it.
  Mr. Thorne: If the inquiry proves that workmen were responsible for the explosion, will not the Government be responsible?
  The Prime Minister: I do not know whether we should assume that anybody was responsible. These dangerous explosives sometimes have spontaneous action.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Arthur Greenwood: May I ask the Leader of the House to state the Business for this week and next week; and may I, at the same time, ask the Prime Minister whether he will regard the warmth of his greeting to-day as a sincere expression of our feelings?
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): The general Debate on the Address in reply to the King's Speech will be continued to-day and tomorrow. The Debate will also occupy the

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whole of next week, and will, we hope, be brought to a conclusion then. Subject to your approval, Mr. Speaker, it may be convenient for the House to debate specific subjects or Amendments next week. Perhaps you, Sir, will he in a position at the beginning of Business to-morrow, to inform the House of your suggestions.
The only other important matter to which I would like to refer, briefly, is that it has been represented to me that there is a desire to discuss at an early date the Polish situation, separately from the general situation. It seems to the Government that that is a reasonable request. I propose to make arrangements for such a Debate—although I cannot say this morning exactly when it will be—separate from the Debate in which we are engaged now. I think that will be for the convenience of the House and will meet the desire of hon. Members.
Sir Herbert Williams: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will arrange, when the Scottish Hydro-Electric Bill is reintroduced—it was formally introduced for information purposes in the last Session—that some explanatory memorandum will be attached to it, because it is quite unintelligible in its present form?
Mr. Eden: I would like to look into that matter, if I may.

GREAT BRITAIN AND UNITED STATES (FUTURE LEND-LEASE ARRANGEMENTS).
The Prime Minister: I ask the House to allow me to read a statement upon the future workings of Lend-Lease. This statement has been carefully agreed with our United States colleagues and friends, and I will now read it to the House.
I thought it proper to take this first opportunity of telling the House the outcome of the discussions which have been taking place in the last few weeks in Washington, between a British Mission headed by Lord Keynes and the American administration. The Mission has been occupied in examining the manner in which the continuation of the war, after the defeat of Germany, is likely to affect the best use of our joint resources, and in particular the changes in the programme of supplies which the American Administration feel that it is proper and right for
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us to have in accordance with the terms of the Lend-Lease Act, an Act which, we must remember, is for the defence of the United States, and is strictly limited to what is necessary for the most effective prosecution of the war by the United States and its Allies.
The end of the war with Germany will make possible large reductions of some of our requirements. We expect that our needs will be met by a programme at a rate not much more than half of what we have been receiving in 1944. All of those supplies and services will be exclusively for the joint war effort against the common enemy. The prolongation of the war, in what will be, for us, the sixth or seventh year, means that certain improvements are esesntial, if our national economy is to be as fully effective as possible for the prosecution of the war. Fatigue and abstinence carried too far, and endured too long, can impede the effectiveness of a people at war, at least as much as more sensational forms of privation. After the defeat of Germany, some release of man-power to increase the supplies available for essential civilian consumption must follow in due course, some improvement in standards and variety of national diet, some devotion of current resources to the provision of emergency housing and a serious effort to rebuild the export trade, which we deliberately gave up in the extremity of our emergency but without which we cannot live in future. Those are forms of sacrifice which it is both possible and right to make for a limited period, but become self-defeating if they are continued too long.
All these matters, both military and economic, have been jointly examined, supported with a wealth of detail, by our representatives in Washington with the heads of the American Departments concerned. We have put at their disposal every particular, and every relevant fact in our possession. One part of the relevant material which can safely be published has, moreover, been made available to the public here and in the United States, in the White Paper published a few days ago. During the recent brief Recess, our representatives in Washington have been in a position to make a full report to us. I take this opportunity to express our very great appreciation of the practical sympathy with which the realities of the position

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have been examined, and of the results which have been achieved.
Let me remind the House that it is no part of the Lend-Lease Act to provide general relief, or to prepare for post-war reconstruction, or to aid our export trade. That great Act has stood us and our Allies in good stead, and in recent conversations we have neither asked nor expected any assistance which is not strictly within its terms and provisions. Nevertheless, as the war proceeds, the nature of the aid which forwards its prosecution most effectively, though unchanged in major matters, gradually changes in detail. Accordingly, so that we can play our full part in continuing the struggle, a programme of Lend-Lease aid against Japan, after the defeat of Germany, has now been planned with the American Administration, to maintain our fighting power against Japan. Without any reduction in our proportional effort, we shall be able, along with the United States, to release some of our man-power to produce somewhat more for civilian consumption. Some improvement in the variety of the civilian diet will be made possible. We shall be able to do more to build temporary and emergency houses. We must, necessarily, for the most part, depend on our own efforts in this field, but, in addition to those efforts resulting from the planned and proportional programme, we anticipate aid from American sources, not only in materials but also in complete houses, to meet some of our needs for temporary and emergency houses for war workers in war areas.
These items are being closely examined, with the help of experts sent out by the Ministry of Works during the tenure of Lord Portal. It is too soon to say on what scale the possibilities of physical production and of shipping will allow this most generous assistance to be released in practice, but it is not too soon to say that the principle is recognised that the provision of emergency shelter for bombed-out war workers is an essential condition of a fully effective contribution to final victory, and, therefore, a war need eligible for Lend-Lease assistance.
Finally, we have been able to reduce the Lend-Lease programme, so that there will be no obstacle to the efforts which
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we ourselves must begin at once, and intensify after the defeat of Germany, to increase the export trade which will be absolutely vital to us when, at the termination of the war, the present system of Lend-Lease necessarily and properly comes to an end. This is a matter on which, I am well aware, hon. Members are anxious to hear, in some detail, what the position will now be. As I said, the defeat of Germany will make possible reductions in the Lend-Lease programme. In certain fields we have been able to anticipate those changes and to work on the basis of the new programme from the beginning of 1945. Thus, from that date, we shall no longer receive shipments to this country under Lend-Lease of any manufactured articles for civilian use which enter into export trade, nor of many raw and semi-fabricated materials, such as iron and steel and some non-ferrous metals. Consequently, in accordance with the White Paper of September, 1941, we shall then be free to export a wide range of goods made from those materials.
Naturally, we have not used in export, and do not propose to use, any critically scarce materials, except where the export is essential to the effective prosecution of the war, but till the German war is at an end, however, there can, of course, be no significant release of resources. The defeat of Japan must still continue to have the first call on our resources after that; but after the defeat of Germany, it will be both possible and necessary to turn over an increasing part of our resources to civilian production, including the export trade. As a result of the recent discussions with the United States Administration about our Lend-Lease programme, following the defeat of Germany exporters will then be subject only to those inevitable limitations dictated by the needs of the war against Japan.
There is not of course—and never has been—any question of our re-exporting in commerce any articles which we have received under Lend-Lease. Nor, in general, shall we receive in this country under Lend-Lease, finished articles identical with those which we shall export. Such articles will be paid for by us. Where we continue to receive any raw materials, the quantities supplied under Lend-Lease are limited to our domestic consumption, for the manufacture of munitions and the maintenance

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of our essential wartime economy. We shall pay cash for any additional supplies which we might wish to take from the United States for export purposes. Thus, one uncertainty about future conditions has now been removed. It should be possible for exporters, henceforward, to make plans with the assurance that they will be able to give effect to those plans with the least possible time-lag, when the defeat of Germany releases man-power, capacity and materials.
I should like to add one word. The White Paper on reciprocal aid lately published, and the President's last Lend-Lease report, provide vivid evidence of the extent to which the community and inter-dependence of effort between the two great Atlantic communities has now proceeded. Never, I think, has there been a more thorough understanding of the facts of the economic position, and the problems of Great Britain and the United States of America on both sides than we have now been able to reach. If men of good will start out from the same premises of agreed fact, they do not necessarily find it impossible to reach the same conclusion.
Mr. Shinwell: Whilst appreciating the great vale of this statement, may I ask my right hon. Friend to elucidate one point? He says that at the beginning of 1945, the usual Lend-Lease arrangements will not operate as regards the import of manufactured goods or semi-manufactured goods and raw materials which may be made available for export purposes from this country, and that a cash arrangement will come into operation. What exactly does he mean by that? Are we to pay for the goods and raw materials imported from the United States, by our foreign assets still available, or will the United States take, in return, goods exported from this country?
The Prime Minister: Everything in this statement, as I said, was agreed, almost sentence by sentence, with our American colleagues. I would be grateful if my hon. Friend would put that question, which is a perfectly valid question, to me after reading the statement, either to-morrow or the next day, because I would not like to give an answer offhand which might not correspond with the exact wording which was
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decided upon. I must add that I consider the statement I have made is one of a highly satisfactory nature, and gives real hope far the future and the smooth development of economic affairs between the two countries in the future.
Mr. Gallacher: I do not know whether the statement is to be discussed at any time, but there is one point in it, on which I should like to put a question. The Prime Minister said that early steps are to be taken to encourage and increase the export trade. I would ask him whether this is not starting off in the wrong way, as happened after the last war; and whether any development of export trade should not arise from, and be based on, a sound policy of social security for the mass of the people in this country?
The Prime Minister: That raises topics outside the limited character of the statement I have just made, and for raising which the hon. Gentleman may possibly have an opportunity during the course of the Debate on the Address.

ADJOURNMENT (ACCELERATION OF MEETING)
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): I beg to move,
"That, during the present Session whenever the House stands adjourned and it is represented to Mr. Speaker by His Majesty's Government that the public interest requires that the House should meet at any earlier time during the Adjournment, and Mr. Speaker is satisfied that the public interest does so require, he may give notice that he is so satisfied, and thereupon the House shall meet at the time stated in such notice and the Government Business to be transacted on the day on which the House shall so meet shall, subject to the publication of notice thereof in the Order Paper to be circulated on the day on which the House shall so meet, be such as the Government may appoint but subject as aforesaid the House shall transact its business as if it had been duly adjourned to the day on which it shall so meet, and any Government Orders of the Day and Government Notices of Motions that may stand on the Order Book for any day shall be appointed for the day on which the House shall so meet; provided also that in the event of Mr. Speaker being unable to act owing to illness or other cause, the Chairman of Ways and Means, or the Deputy Chairman, to be authorised to act in his stead for the purposes of this Resolution."
Perhaps I should explain to the House that this is a Motion in the customary form, providing for the recall of the House during an Adjournment, if the public interest so requires it. We would like to have this power immediately. The House is very familiar with the Motion, and knows that we have put it into operation several times.
Question put, and agreed to.

BUSINESS AND SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE
11.31 a.m.
Mr. Eden: I beg to move,
"That during the present Session—

(1) Government business shall have precedence at every sitting;

(2) The following provisions shall have effect as respects public Bills:—

(a) no Bills other than Government Bills shall be introduced;

(b) whenever the House is adjourned for more than one day, notices of amendments, new clauses or new schedules (whether they are to be moved in Committee or on Report) received by the Clerks at the Table at any time not later than 4.30 p.m. on the last day of adjournment may be accepted by them as if the House was sitting;

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(c) notices of amendments, new clauses or new schedules to be moved in Committee may be accepted by the Clerks at the Table before a Bill has been read a second time;

(d) a new clause may be moved on Report without notice, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 37.

(3) Whenever the House is adjourned for more than one day, notices of questions received by the Clerks at the Table at any time not later than 4.30 p.m. on the last day of adjournment may be accepted—

(a) if received before 4.30 p.m. on the penultimate day of adjournment, as if they had been given on that day at a time when the House was sitting, and

(b) if received thereafter, as if they had been given on the last day of adjournment at a time when the House was sitting.

(4) For the purposes of this Order the expression 'day of adjournment' means a day on which the House is not sitting, not being a Saturday or Sunday:

(5) Paragraph (2) of Standing Order No. 1 shall have effect as if all the words after "clock" were omitted and the following words were substituted therefor:—

"or, if proceedings exempted as hereinafter provided from the operation of this Order are under discussion at or after the hour appointed under paragraph (3) of this Order for the interruption of business, half-an-hour after the conclusion of such proceedings, Mr. Speaker shall adjourn the House without question put."
(6) The following paragraphs shall have effect in substitution for paragraphs (8) and (9) of Standing Order No. 1:—
"(8) A motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown, either with or without notice and either at the commencement of public business or at any time thereafter, to be decided without amendment or debate, to the effect either—

(a) That the proceedings on any specified business he exempted at this day's sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order 'Sittings of the House': or

(b) That the proceedings on any specified business be exempted at this day's sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order 'Sittings of the House' for a specified period after the hour appointed for the interruption of business.

(9) If a motion made under the preceding paragraph be agreed to, the business so specified shall not be interrupted if it is under discussion at the hour appointed for the interruption of business, may he entered upon at any hour although opposed and, if under discussion when the business is postponed under the provisions of any Standing Order, may be resumed and proceeded with, though opposed, after the interruption of business.
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Provided that business exempted for a specified period shall not be entered upon, or be resumed after the expiration of that period, and, if not concluded earlier, shall be interrupted at the end of that period, and the relevant provisions of paragraphs (3) and (4) of this Standing Order shall then apply.
(10) Provided always that not more than one motion under paragraph (8) may be made at any one sitting, and that, after any business exempted from the operation of the order is disposed of, the remaining business of the sitting shall be dealt with according to the provisions applicable to business taken after the hour appointed for the interruption of business."
The Prime Minister, in his speech yesterday, referred to the Government's intention to propose a Motion to take the whole time of the House for Government Business. My right hon. Friend then gave some of the reasons for doing so. I think this is a step which every hon. Member, wherever he sits, whether on the Government bench or anywhere else, ought profoundly to regret, because we have all—or most of us—sat on back benches, and most of us will probably sit on back benches again. Therefore, we ought to have a due sense of humility in these matters, and we ought therefore to be careful of Private Members' rights, even though, for the moment, we happen to be on the Treasury Bench. I would like to remind the House that certain special arrangements which were made for the convenience of the House, are continued by this Motion, certain rights about sending in Amendments and Questions when the House is not sitting, also the power to suspend the Rule without notice, and to suspend it for a limited period of time, to which the House agreed in 1942, as well as the arrangement about the half-hour Adjournment Debate.
This Motion safeguards the arrangements made last Session by which Members retained their right to raise matters during the half-hour Adjournment time at the end of Business. That was often lost in the past through the suspension of the Rule or other reason. We want now to continue the practice, which I think has been generally acceptable to Members, by which the half-hour is not lost, unless we sit very late at night. That is provided for in the Motion. I ought also to say, that though we are seeking to take this time from Private Members, we intend to continue the practice which we developed in the

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last Session, of giving opportunities for Debate on subjects in which the House is interested, and giving time for these, so that hon. Members are as free as ever—freer if they so wish—to criticise the Government and so that they shall have full opportunities of doing so.
11.33 a.m.
Earl Winterton: I agree with everything my right hon. friend has said, but I wish to raise one point. The right hon. Gentleman may reply that he cannot bind future Governments but if and when the pre-war arrangements as to Private Members' time are restored, I hope we shall not then be told that, in consequence, this most valuable concession we have been given, with the approval of the Chair, of being able to raise any matter on the Adjournment, when notice has been given, and having the half-hour Adjournment Debate in any case, will be taken away. I think it is the most valuable concession we have had, and in many respects is more helpful than the old arrangements under pre-war practice. I would like to put in a word now to prevent future Governments from taking away that right.
Mr. Eden: I think my noble friend is right to peg out that claim well in advance, but of course I cannot make that commitment. It would be for the House and the Government of the time to judge, in relation to Private Members' time generally.
Mr. Stephen: With regard to the provision in line 5, that
"no Bills other than Government Bills shall be introduced"
will there be a certain amount of modification with regard to that? I understand that the practice in another place is that Members there give notice of Private Bills——
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is anticipating an Amendment already down on line 5.
11.35 a.m.
Petty-Officer Alan Herbert: I beg to move, in line 5, leave out "introduced," and insert:
"set down for a Second Reading. No Bill shall be introduced under Standing Order No. 10."
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I feel rather a pig in moving an Amendment to a Motion standing in the name of the Prime Minister, on the Prime Minister's birthday, but I hope he will overlook it. My Amendment is a very modest suggestion. The effect of it is that we shall be able to give notice of Bills, get them printed and that will be the end of it. The second part of the Amendment is that no Bill shall be introduced under Standing Order 10, which relates to the operation of the Ten Minutes Rule. Therefore, if this Amendment is carried, no time will actually be spent on the Floor of the House in discussing such Bills.
I think it right and desirable that every year, when we surrender our rights, we should make some formal protest, if only to remind the House of what our liberties are. Since this Parliament began, 208 new Members have been added to this House, which is rather a commentary on the familiar assertion that this is the same old jaded Parliament which assembled in 1935. More relevant to this Amendment is the other figure that, since the war, 130 Members have been elected to this House. Many of these 130 Members have not the faintest idea or experience of what their rights are to move Motions or to introduce Bills on Fridays, in an attempt to be creative. Suppose we have some young Samuel Plimsoll, unsuspected among us, and he wishes to amend the Merchant Shipping Acts. He cannot do anything of that sort on the Motion for the Adjournment, or on Fridays. If this Amendment is passed, he will be able to get a Bill drafted, and go to the Public Bill Office, which will assure itself that the Bill is not hypothetical or obscene, or anything of that sort, and then he can get it printed. Then it becomes subject to discussion in the papers which are interested, and a body of opinion can be created in its favour.
Secondly, if it is a good Bill, and gets popular support, and is not too long, it may be that the Government will take it up. Thirdly, when the great day comes when our rights are restored, there will be a reservoir of Bills ready to proceed, and it will not be possible for the Prime Minister to tell us, as we were told last time, "We are not going to give you Private Members' time, because Private Members have no Bills ready". I hope that this Amendment will not be objected to on the ground that it will make labour

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for the staff, or use up paper, or anything of that sort. I do not suppose that many Members will want to take advantage of it, but I hope that I shall have the support of my hon. Friends in all quarters of the House in trying to establish, at least this relic of our rights, not merely to criticise but to create.
11.38 a.m.
Sir Herbert Williams: I beg to second the Amendment.
I cannot understand why there should be any objection to this proposal. We do not propose to take up any Parliamentary time. Many of us have had experience of passing Bills through all stages without one word of discussion in this House. I, myself, was responsible for the Electricity Meters Bill some years ago, when a crisis arose through the action of the East Ham Corporation. All parties agreed on that Bill. I also succeeded in getting through an Amendment to the Bills of Exchange Act, on which everybody was agreed. That was passed, "on the nod," at 11 o'Clock at night. It is true that some good Amendments were made in another place; and those also were agreed to, without discussion, at 11 o'Clock at night. I do not see why the Government should deprive us of the opportunity of bringing in non-contentious Measures, which may be of great value to the State, and I hope that consideration will be given to this Amendment.
11.40 a.m.
Mr. Eden: I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Oxford University (Petty-Officer Herbert) for the way in which he has presented this Amendment. I admit that it appears to have certain attractions on the surface, but I must look a little deeper than that. I recognise that his suggestion takes account of the Government's need for the time of the House, and I am grateful for that. But we must see where this is going to lead us. It is proposed that these Bills shall be printed, and my hon. and gallant Friend himself said that it may be that the House will like them, and that, eventually, some of them will pass into law without discussion, thereby not taking up the time of the House. I leave out for a moment the question of whether it is desirable that that should happen very often—about which I have some views of my own. Apart from that, all these
82
Bills have to be examined by the Government Departments concerned. They have to go into the merits of each of these Bills, and give hon. Members the reasons why they think that this is good, or that is not good. That is going to put a further burden on Government Departments at this time, when their energies must continue to be concentrated on the conduct of the war.
Sir H. Williams indicated dissent.
Mr. Eden: My hon. Friend shakes his head, but he must know that Government Departments are extremely hard-driven, and it is the very Government Departments that would have to examine these Bills that are most pressed at present, in preparations for the future.
Sir H. Williams: Ordinarily, the Government Department can decide in five minutes whether they ought to block a Bill or not.
Mr. Eden: I certainly will not accept that view. I hope that it is not the position. If Private Members bring in Bills, they are entitled to have those Bills properly examined by the Government Departments concerned. If my hon. Friend were right, I should deplore that situation. I have sympathy with the idea behind this Amendment, but I could not undertake that we would examine the number of Bills, dealing with a wide range of subjects, which might be put forward. I will say that, so far as it lies within our power, we will not make it a pretence for refusing Private Members' time, when hostilities are over, that Members have not had time to get their Bills ready, but I do not think that hon. Members should put upon Government Departments now this additional burden.
11.44 a.m.
Sir Percy Harris: I have been a very loyal supporter of the Government far five stormy years, and on every occasion I have supported them in getting the whole of Parliamentary time. I am sure that I was right, because the dominating need of the war must influence the affairs of this House, and our energies must be concentrated on that. But I think that this is a very reasonable request, and to object to it is a little pedantic. I cannot believe that 600 Members would all take advantage of this, to bring out of the

83
pigeonholes a great number of Bills. I have greater confidence in the common sense of the House. I think that if this very small concession is granted, Members will use it with discretion, and that the only Bills which are likely to be presented are those which will make a practical contribution to the solution of post-war problems or will deal with urgent questions that the Government have overlooked. I hope that this is not the last word of the right hon. Gentleman, and that he will not resist the very reasonable suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member for Oxford University (Petty-Officer Herbert).
11.45 a.m.
Mr. Stephen: When I anticipated the moving of the Amendment by the hon. and gallant Member, I was raising a point as to the right of Members to introduce Private Bills, equally with Members of the Government, and the Leader of the House, when replying to the discussion, did not deal with the point raised in my question. It seems to me that the elected representatives of the people should not be placed in a more unfortunate position, with regard to the right of introducing Bills. I think that would be quite indefensible. I hope the Leader of the House will deal with this question, because I understand that, in another place, Bills can be introduced by those who are not Members of the Government, and the House of Commons should certainly be jealous of its own privileges in this respect.
I think, after hearing the answer of the Leader of the House, that nothing which the right hon. Gentleman said showed any material or substantial reason why the Amendment should not be accepted. I go further and say that the rights of hon. Members to introduce Bills under the Ten Minute Rule should be granted to hon. Members again. If the Government afterwards find that this is putting a heavy strain on the Departments, then they could come to the House, and I have no doubt that hon. Members would be just as generous and sympathetic to them as they have been in the past. Like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris), I do not think that a Government Department should get into a state of excitement when some hon. Member introduces some small
84
Bill. A great deal might hapen in the few months remaining of the life of this Parliament, if we were allowed to bring forward certain questions which, up to now, hon. Members have been debarred by their own action from raising. I certainly would like a definite answer from the Leader of the House on the question of whether the House of Commons is going to allow certain people, who have not been elected by the people, to be in a privileged position in having the right to get Bills printed and brought before the House—a right which the elected Members of Parliament do not at present possess.
11.49 a.m.
Mr. Austin Hopkinson: I think the House ought to give rather more serious consideration to this Motion. It is one of a series of attacks by the Government on Private Members' privileges. Any civil servant may put forward what amounts to a Private Member's Bill. He can draft something which has the force of law, and which later becomes the law of the land, and people can be charged as criminals under that law. I say that, to allow any clerk in any Government Office to introduce Private Bills in that way, is an outrage on the liberties of this House. I hope the House will give really serious consideration to that point, because these encroachments on the liberties and privileges of this House have been going on continuously, ever since the present Government came into power. Unfortunately, at the time when the Defence Orders were passed, the House was rather hysterical and divested itself of an immense number of its prerogatives and privileges. Ever since, we have been getting continuous pressure from people outside—the electors of this country—who have been telling us that we ought to try to preserve the liberties of Parliament for the benefit of the nation, but, one by one, they are filched away from us. This is one more example.
If I may say so, the defence of the Leader of the House was not complete, and was rather disingenuous. The idea that a Government Department is going to spend days, and to be diverted from the conduct of the war, in looking at Private Members' Bills to see whether or not they are in general accordance with the policy of the Ministry concerned is, as I say, somewhat disingenuous. My own experience, as one who has taken an

85
active part in the conduct of the war, and the production of munitions for it, is that it would be a jolly good thing if some staffs of Government Departments were diverted for a short time to the examination of Private Members' Bills, instead of interfering with industry and lessening production. If hon. Members had been as actively concerned as I have been in the production of munitions, they would not think for one moment that there is any lack of time for Government servants to do this. These people are interfering with production, and surely it is monstrous to say that staffs may not be diverted for a few minutes, in most cases, to look into the draft of a Bill and advise the Minister whether it is in accordance with the policy of the Ministry concerned or not.
I hope the House will make its protest. We have gone much too far. I remember, when the Government came into power, reminding the House what happened in another period when it was being robbed of its privileges and prerogatives, one by one. That ended in a civil war, due to the fact that Parliament, in those days, allowed the Crown to assume more and more of the powers which belonged to Parliament. The resulting state of affairs was such that only by civil war could a solution be found.
11.53 a.m.
Mr. Gallacher: I am not so much concerned about Orders made by civil servants, so long as they are good Orders. If these people were able to make Orders freely, there might be quite a lot of faces missing from this House. But I would like to see hon. Members' rights given back to them at the earliest opportunity. After listening carefully to the Prime Minister, I want to put a question to the Leader of the House. The Prime Minister, speaking for the Government yesterday, gave a definite impression to this House and to the country that the time lying before us was going to be wasted, or not fully utilised. I want to ask the Leader of the House, before he invites the House to support this Motion, if he will give a pledge that the time that is being taken, will be utilised to rush through legislation and will not be played about with, as was suggested yesterday by the Prime Minister. That is the one thing with which I am concerned, and with which I am certain hon. Members of this House
86
and the people in the country are much concerned. Already there is a lot of discussion about what was said yesterday. We are concerned whether the time the Government have taken will be used for a good purpose, for the speedy carrying through of legislation. I want an answer to that question.
11.55 a.m.
Mr. W. J. Brown: It ought to be possible for us to discuss this matter here without attacking the civil servants, expressing our views on the merits or otherwise of delegated legislation and exhibiting passionate leanings towards the totalitarian States. We have in front of us a very simple proposition. The proposition made by the hon. and gallant Member for Oxford University (Petty Officer Herbert) is that Members should have restored to them the right of introducing—and I emphasise the word "introducing"—Private Members' Bills. That, and that alone, is the issue in front of the House. I listened with attention to the reply of the Leader of the House, and if there is an answer to the statement made by the hon. and gallant Member for Oxford University the Leader of the House did not produce it. It may be that there is a case against what the Senior Burgess for Oxford University said, but the Leader of the House did not produce it. He rested his case on one point, and one point alone—the argument that this would place an additional burden, which might conceivably be a heavy burden, upon the already over-burdened staffs of Government Departments. I know something about the staffs of Government Departments. It has been my job to speak for them all my life, and I can tell the Leader of the House that, speaking for them, they would be very happy to shoulder any burden which may be involved. The plain truth is that no burden is imposed upon the State. If it were the case of the hon. and gallant Member for Oxford University that we should have the right not only to introduce Bills but to discuss them, then, indeed, there might be some measure of work imposed upon public servants. It would then be necessary for them to examine the Bills and to advise Ministers as to the Departmental re-action to them. But the Amendment does not propose that the House should have the right of discussion at all. It merely proposes that we should have the

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right to introduce Bills. The only public servant upon whom this would impose any burden at all is inside this House itself, in the Private Bill Office. I agree with the hon. and gallant Member that Members who introduce Private Members' Bills can probably be counted on the fingers of one or two hands. No one is going to spend unnecessary time in drafting and introducing a Bill unless he believes that a very genuine public purpose is to be served thereby. While I cannot speak for other hon. Members. I would certainly claim this to be the case. There may be an answer to the Amendment but we certainly have not had it from the Minister, and unless we get a better reply, with great regret, with deep charity in my heart but with a definite purpose in my head, I shall vote in favour of the Amendment.
11.59 a.m.
Mr. Eden: I think that if the House will allow me to say a further word it may facilitate matters. I am sorry if I did not make myself clear enough and did not meet the point, but I do not think that the hon. Gentleman opposite put the case I have to meet. If I understand the right purpose of my hon. and gallant Friend—and it is a very reasonable purpose or would be in normal times, when, of course, it would be taken for granted—these Bills would be examined. There is no purpose in just printing Bills if no one examines them. My hon. and gallant Friend was good enough to make it plain that if the Government liked the Bills some of them would be passed into law. That is quite a reasonable point of view. Obviously a Bill cannot be passed into law unless the Government examine it. Therefore, Bills do require examination. The hon. Gentleman says they do not need examination and that all that is required is that they should be printed. That is not the purpose at all. The hon. Gentleman who was interested in the liberties he thought we were filching from the House said that we were getting into civil war. Surely he knows well that the last time this was done there was not a civil war at all. He is grossly and historically incorrect. The last time it was done was by Mr. Asquith in the last war, and the moment the war was over all powers were restored to hon. Members, and as far as this war is concerned they will be restored. The hon. Member need not get
88
out his blunderbuss or rapier. I will read a quotation, which is quite short, of what Mr. Asquith said on that occasion.
"The Government are less disposed than ever to curtail the liberties and privileges of this House, but under pressure of public duty they feel that the legislation of the House ought to be confined, in the conditions under which we live, to matters which are urgently necessary and considered necessary by those responsible for the effective prosecution of the war."
May I say one more general word to the House?
Mr. Hopkinson: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to imply that the filching of the liberties and prerogatives of Parliament and of the people now were anything like what they were in Mr. Asquith's time? And, further, I do not suppose that we would have civil war, because under the present conditions the dispute would be between the Executive on one side, and Parliament, the Armed Forces and the Crown on the other side.
Mr. Eden: I am very glad that my hon. Friend feels no apprehensions, but as regards the taking of powers, the powers taken in this respect in the last war are exactly the same as those which are taken now. I was saying that there is this difference. In this war, particularly, the Government have tried, and we shall go on trying, to meet the House in certain respects to enable subjects to be debated in which the House takes particular interest. That has been done this time which was not done during the last war, and that, I pledge myself, the Government will continue to do, and it is, I think, a real service to the House. This policy, which has been created in this war, is retained to meet the convenience of hon. Members. My hon. Friend grossly exaggerates the position when he says we are filching away the rights of the House. That is not our policy. These Bills, if presented, must be seriously examined by Government Departments. I would not think it right that Members should just produce Bills and let them lie about. That is not the way to treat Bills. They must be examined and that means considerable work. Private Bills, in my experience, have often come before the Cabinet. I cannot hold out any hope that we can do anything of that kind at this still serious stage of the war. I hope that the House will accept my view that this is not an attempt to whittle away

89
rights, and that they will be restored as soon as possible. As to the reference to another place, we have our own rules and act as we think best in our own way.
Mr. Stephen: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether Bills introduced by private individuals in another place are studied in some over-burdened Department?
Mr. Eden: I have not the least idea, but I can promise that they are not a burden to me.
12.4 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Lawson: I would not like the House to make a decision on the Amendment without at least one of those Members who have come in during the war rising to support it, and, therefore, I rise to do so. The hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment rightly said that those of us who have come into this House during the war have not had a full opportunity of using our privileges as Members. It may not be a very great hardship or loss to those of advanced years who have come into the House during the war to be deprived of these privileges, but yesterday the Prime Minister referred to the rising
generation in this House and the Members who come in young with great responsibilities for the future. Unless those of us who have come in at an early age have an opportunity of really serving a useful apprenticeship and getting to know how to use the machinery of the House, we shall not be able to fulfil the duties which the Prime Minister said will rest on us for some 10 or a dozen years from now. Although I do not want anybody to think that I am saying that I, as an individual, will necessarily as of mathematical certainty be here 12 years from now, it is certain that there are some of my generation who have come into this House who will be here 12 or 15 years from now. On their behalf, Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this Amendment so that we may have the opportunity of getting to know how to use our rights and privileges.
Petty Officer Herbert Petty Officer Herbert rose——
Mr. Speaker: The hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot rise to make a second speech.
Question put, "That the word 'introduced' stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 226; Noes, 33.

Division No. 1.]

AYES.

[12.6 p.m.

Adamson, Mrs. Jennie L. (Dartford)

Culverwell, C. T.

Grenfell, D. R.

Adamson, W. M. (Cannock)

Cundiff, F. W.

Gretton, J. F.

Agnew, Comdr. P. G.

Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

Albery, Sir Irving

Davison, Sir W. H.

Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

Apsley, Lady

De Chair, Capt. S. S.

Grigg, Rt. Hon. Sir P. J. (Cardiff, E.)

Assheton, Rt. Hon. R.

De la Berè, R.

Grimston, R. V. (Westbury)

Astor, Visc'tess (Plymouth, Sutton)

Douglas, F. C. R.

Guy, W. H.

Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G.

Hall, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Aberdare)

Baillie, Major Sir A. W. M.

Drewe, C.

Hall, W. G. (Colne Valley)

Barnes, A. J.

Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)

Hammersley, S. S.

Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

Beaumont, Hubert (Batley)

Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. (Kens'gton, N.)

Headlam, Lt.-Col. Sir C. M.

Beechman, N. A.

Dunglass, Lord

Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

Beit, Sir A. L.

Eccles, D. M.

Henderson, J. J. Craik (Leeds, N.E.)

Benson, G.

Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

Bird, Sir R. B.

Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

Heneage, Lt.-Col. A. P.

Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C.

Edmondson, Major Sir J.

Hepworth, J.

Boulton, Sir W. W.

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

Hewlett, T. H.

Broadbridge, Sir G. T.

Edwards, Walter J. (Whitchapel)

Higgs, W. F.

Brocklebank, Sir C. E. R.

Ellis, Sir G.

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Brooke, H. (Lewisham)

Elliston, Captain Sir G. S.

Hogg, Hon. Q. McG.

Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

Emmott, C. E. G. C.

Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.

Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

Horsbrugh, Florence

Burden, T. W.

Erskine-Hill, A. G.

Hubbard, T. F.

Butcher, H. W.

Frankel, D.

Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

Cadogan, Major Sir E.

Galbraith, Comdr. T. D.

Hulbert, Wing-Commander N. J.

Campbell, Sir E. T. (Bromley)

Gallacher, W.

Hutchinson, G. C. (Ilford)

Cary, R. A.

Gammans, Capt. L. D.

Hutchison, Lt.-Com. G. I. C. (E'burgh)

Chorlton, A. E. L.

Gibbons, Lt.-Col. W. E.

Hynd, J. B.

Clarry, Sir R.

Gibson, Sir C. G.

James, Wing-Com. A. (Well'borough)

Cobb, Captain E. C.

Glanville, J. E.

Jarvis, Sir J. J.

Colegate, W. A.

Goldie, N. B.

Jeffreys, General Sir G. D.

Colindridge, F.

Grant-Ferris, Wing-Comdr. R.

Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

Conant, Major R. J. E.

Green, W. H. (Deptford)

Jewson, P. W.

Cook, Lt.-Col, Sir T. R. A. M. (N'flk, N.)

Greenwell, Colonel T. G.

John, W.

Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

Jones, A. C. (Shipley)

Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A.

Pearson, A.

Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

Keatinge, Major E. M.

Petherick, M.

Studholme, Major H. G.

Keir, Mrs. Cazalet

Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F

Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)

Peto, Major B. A. J.

Suirdale, Colonel Viscount

Kimball, Major L.

Pickthorn, K. W. M.

Summerskill, Dr. Edith

Kirby, B. V.

Plugge, Capt. L. F.

Sutcliffe, H.

Lancaster, Lieut.-Col. C. G.

Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

Taylor, Major C. S. (Eastbourne)

Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Lawson, J. J. (Chester-le-Street)

Prescott, Capt. W. R. S.

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.

Price, M. P.

Teeling, Flight-Lieut. W.

Leslie, J. R.

Pritt, D. N.

Thorne, W.

Levy, T.

Procter, Major H. A.

Thorneycroft, H. (Clayton)

Lewis, O.

Purbrick, R.

Touche, G. C.

Liddall, W. S.

Pym, L. R.

Tree, A. R. L. F.

Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Ladywood)

Quibell, D. J. K.

Tufnell, Lieut.-Comdr. R. L.

Lucas, Major Sir J. M.

Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)

Turton, R. H.

Lyle, Sir C. E. Leonard

Richards, R.

Viant, S. P.

McCorquodale, Malcolm S.

Robertson, D. (Streatham)

Walkden, A. G. (Bristol, S.)

McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

Robertson, Rt. Hon. Sir M. A. (M'ham)

Ward, Col. Sir A. (Hull)

Magnay, T.

Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

Maitland, Sir A.

Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)

Watkins, F. C.

Manning, C. A. G.

Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

Wayland, Sir W. A.

Mathers, G.

Russell, Sir A. (Tynemouth)

Webbe, Sir W. Harold

Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

Salt, E. W.

White, Sir Dymoke (Fareham)

Mellor, Sir J. S. P.

Sanderson, Sir F. B.

White, H. (Derby, N.E.)

Messer, F.

Savory, Professor D. L.

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. (Blaydon)

Molson, A. H. E.

Schuster, Sir G. E.

Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

Montague, F.

Scott, Donald (Wansbeck)

Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

Morgan, R. H. (Stourbridge)

Selley, Sir H. R.

Windsor, W.

Morrison, Major J. G. (Salisbury)

Shephard, S.

Windsor-Clive, Lt.-Col. G.

Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

Shepperson, Sir E. W.

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

Shute, Col. Sir J. J.

Womersley, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

Mott-Radclyffe, Capt. C. E.

Sidney, Major W. P.

Woodburn, A.

Muff, G.

Silkin, L.

Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

Murray, J. D. (Spennymoor)

Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W. D.

Wootton-Davies, J. H.

Naylor, T. E.

Smith, E. (Stoke)

Wright, Mrs. Beatrice F. (Bodmin)

Neal, H.

Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

York, Major C.

Nicholson, Captain G. (Farnham)

Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir D. B.

Nunn, W.

Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:—

Oliver, G. H.

Strickland, Capt. W. F.

Major A. S. L. Young and

Parker, J.

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (Northwich)

Mr. Buchan-Hepburn.

NOES.

Acland, Sir R. T. D.

Hardie, Mrs. Agnes

MacLaren, A.

Barr, J.

Harris, Rt. Hon. Sir P. A.

Maclean, N. (Govan)

Bevan, A. (Ebbw Vale)

Harvey, T. E.

Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M.

Bowles, F. G.

Hopkinson, A.

Reakes, G. L. (Wallasey)

Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

Horabin, T. L.

Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham (St. M.)

Cove, W. G.

Hughes, R. Moelwyn

Stephen, C.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

Keeling, E. H.

Walkden, E. (Doncaster)

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

King-Hall, Commander W. S. R.

White, H. Graham (Birkenhead, E)

Dugdale, John (W. Bromwich)

Lawson, H. M. (Skipton)

Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.)

Foster, W.

Lindsay, K. M.

George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

Lipson, D. L.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:—

Granville, E. L.

McGhee, H. G.

Petty-Officer Alan Herbert and

Mr. W. J. Brown.

Main question put, and agreed to.

12.17 p.m.
Captain Cunningham-Reid: I beg to move, at the end of the Question, to add:
"(11) The House shall not be counted during the first half-hour of any debate upon a Motion for the Adjournment made between two Orders of the Day or after the Orders of the Day have been disposed of, or after the interruption of business."
Earl Winterton: On a point of Order. I beg to submit that this Amendment involves an Amendment of Standing Orders and to ask whether an Amendment of a Standing Order should not be put forward as such and not in connection with this Motion.
Mr. Speaker: I think the Amendment is in Order. The Leader of the House has
92
put down an Amendment to Standing Orders, and surely that Amendment can be amended at the discretion of the House, so long as it is relevant to the main Amendment.
Captain Cunningham-Reid: I should like in my remarks, and further to that point of Order, to point out that this particular matter does not appear in Standing Orders at all. I think that is an omission of which the House is not aware. The question of the quorum and the count is not laid down in Standing Orders, though I think it is something which ought to be dealt with in the near future. For that additional reason the Noble Lord's point of Order would fall.

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About this time last year I put down a Motion, which was supported by a considerable number of Members, that the daily Adjournment period should be certain, and not an event so precarious that the odds against getting that opportunity worked out at about five to one. The Government, as stated by the Leader of the House to-day, recognised the fairness of our request by altering Standing Orders so that the Adjournment could be taken whenever and however late Government Business was completed. Everybody was pleased and all went happily for a time, until it was made apparent that though practically the whole House desired that Private Members could use this, one of their few remaining privileges, any one Member, animated by frivolous, prejudiced or revengeful motives, could upset the whole apple-cart. Such power resting with one individual cuts right across the rights of Private Members as a whole and makes Parliament ridiculous to the outside world.
This Amendment, which stands in the name of myself and other hon. Members, though it does not exclude a count on the Adjournment under any circumstances, would, at least, ensure that the House could not be counted out for the first half-hour of the Adjournment period, and would enable a Private Member anyhow to state his case and receive a reply from the Minister concerned, and Members of the public who were interested in what was being debated could thus hear what was the Member's and the Government's view. If I could have the attention of my right hon. Friend for one moment, I would say that I feel that this suggestion, which is being put forward in the shape of an Amendment, should appeal to the Government's sense of justice, because, as they have taken away from Private Members most of their privileges, they should be anxious that the only worth-while one remaining should not prove to have a false bottom. As things are now, the Adjournment period can be made abortive by the count, and I would again emphasise that this count or quorum rule is not a rule except by usage. It has become a practice of the House and through some omission has been left out of Standing Orders. I trust that when this omission is put right and before a quorum rule is laid down, in black and white, in Standing Orders, there will be an opportunity for this House to
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debate it, because this rule by usage, as I say, has developed into something which is wrong as applied not only to Private Business but also to Public Business—though the latter point, of course, does not arise under this Amendment.
I would like to read these words at the end of the Amendment, because it has transpired that they may require explanation:
"made between two Orders of the Day or after the Orders of the Day have been disposed of or after the introduction of business."
Though care was taken in drafting this Amendment, I understand that official quarters are not quite certain as to our intention, and I wish to make it clear that so far as supporters of this Amendment are concerned, all we want is one clear half-hour per day. The Amendment does not mean, as I believe some thought it meant, that if, for example, the Business of the day ended at 4 o'clock, we would have a certainty of not being counted out between 4 and 4.30 and then, when at 6 o'clock the Adjournment Motion was formally put again, we would expect another half-hour. We expect only one certain half-hour per day; after that it can be free for all, and anybody who is sufficiently evilly disposed can have count-outs to his heart's content. We only want to have this half-hour assured to us when the Government Business, and that which concerns the public's pockets, is completed and there is, therefore, not the same necessity for Members to remain in the House to watch the public's interests.
On the completion of Public Business Members are, naturally, entitled to go home, and, in fact, the majorty do so, and it is rarely that on the Adjournment, 40 Members remain in the House, and 40 is the quorum necessary for the House to continue sitting should Mr. Speaker's attention be called to this deficiency by any one Member. If anybody in the House wanted to be really bloody-minded he would not have much difficulty under present conditions in counting the House out practically every evening. This could also be done if only for the purpose of demonstrating into what nonsense this rule has developed.
The quorum rule as it is now understood is wrong. As applied to Government Business, it does not have the effect for which it was originally intended, and I hope on some other occasion to have

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an opportunity of going into that aspect of the matter. As applied to Private Members' Business on the Adjournment, this rule is unfair. Anyhow, I ask the Government to improve matters by accepting this Amendment and not allowing to be counted out during the first half-hour of the Adjournment period the few stalwarts who remain in the House at the end of the day.
12.26 p.m.
Mr. Driberg: I beg to second the Amendment.
In doing so I should like to refer briefly to what I, personally, consider a rather regrettable series of incidents a few weeks ago. One evening on the Adjournment the hon. and gallant Member was counted out by an hon. Gentleman on the other side of the House, an hon. Gentleman who, incidentally, very rarely, I think, favours the House with his views or indeed with his presence. On the following day I equally regret that the hon. and gallant Member for St. Marylebone (Captain Cunningham-Reid) saw fit to retaliate in kind and deprive the House of the Foreign Office reply to a very interesting although rather impromptu Debate on the future of Germany I do not think either of those incidents was particularly good for the credit of this House outside, where the niceties of our procedure are not always fully understood. Therefore, I think that the hon. and gallant Member is really putting a very good and a very strong case for the prestige of this House when he suggests that it should not be counted out during this half-hour Adjournment period.
At a more modest level it may be argued that it is unfair to some backbench Member who has perhaps been waiting for weeks, or even months, for the opportunity to raise some purely local constituency grievance, which normally will attract only a dozen or two Members in the last half-hour of the day, if some hon. Member can just wander in from the smoking-room, and perhaps frivolously, or even vindictively, call for a count and get this purely local little grievance suppressed.
I mentioned that this does affect, to my mind, the prestige of Parliament. People outside do not always fully understand what goes on here. They see in the
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newspapers, unfortunately, that only 20 or 30 Members were present, when what looks like some tremendously important Debate was taking place on some subject which is intrinsically important, such as the future of Germany, or whatever it may be, and they do not understand that that was probably not, in fact, what I might call one of the full-dress Debates of this House. Then, when one goes to one's constituency or gives a lecture to some unit in the Army, one of the questions is almost always "Why is it that there are so many absentee M.P.s? How is it that only 20 or 30 people can bother to be present when the future of Germany is being discussed?" That does undoubtedly have a deleterious effect on the prestige of Parliament in the country and generally. For these reasons I have pleasure in seconding the Amendment.
12.30 p.m.
Mr. Eden: I have considered this Amendment and, in my view, this is not a matter upon which the Government, as a Government, should pronounce. It is a matter for the House entirely and, therefore, the very few observations I shall make I will make as Leader of the House and not as a Member of the Government. They will be purely personal observations which will not bind my colleagues at all. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is quite right. There is no Standing Order on the subject, but it is a very old practice, the counting-out, and I should have thought that the House would hesitate awhile before it makes any modification in that. What the hon. and gallant Gentleman is really suggesting is that Private Members should have a power which the Government have not got. At first sight the Amendment sounds attractive. But you never know. Later on, some much more sinister Government than this one might come along and then it would not be so good. I would commend great caution in the matter and my personal vote, for what a personal vote is worth, will be given against the Amendment. As to the point raised by the Noble Lord, whether a Standing Order should be considered, this is not a Standing Order but only practice. In my view, this is a matter for the House to decide for itself and, in my judgment, the House would be wise not to do this without further thought.
12.32 p.m.
Mr. A. Bevan: I, also, would like to suggest that the House should reflect before passing this Amendment. At first sight it sounds very attractive, but if we examine the consequence, it might well be that it would work in the opposite way to which the mover intends. For example, I see no reason why the first half-hour should be exempted from the counting-out. Why only the first half-hour? As a matter of fact, if the first half-hour is exempted, it would lead to the temptation to count the House out when that half-hour is over.
Mr. Driberg: There is already one modification of our practice—the normal luncheon hour, when, by Standing Order, no count can be called. But there is no temptation to call a count immediately the luncheon hour is over.
Mr. Bevan: That is an entirely different matter.
Mr. Driberg: Yes, but that is the psychological reaction that my hon. Friend was suggesting.
Mr. Bevan: Surely my hon. Friend would not try to press that as a parallel, because the reason why there is no count during the luncheon hour is that the House could be completely disrupted, and the Government would not be able to get their work through at all. The arrangement with regard to the luncheon hour is in order to reserve the right of the House to go on with the other Business of the day, as, otherwise, a very difficult situation would be created.
What I have pointed out has some substance in that it applies to Private Members. Another reason which occurs to me on reflection is, if there is no counting-out, what is going to happen is that the individual who has got the Adjournment is under no obligation to see that 40 Members are present, and the other Members who may want to speak afterwards are under no obligation to keep a House. It may be that only the Minister would be present. This would aggravate the matter to an enormous extent. After all, if an hon. Member is raising a matter of some importance, it is not difficult for 40 Members to remain to keep the House. Even if he is not raising a matter of importance to the House as a whole he would like
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to have same hon. Members listening to what he is saying, but if there is no counting-out—no necessity for 40 Members to be present—he would very probably find himself addressing empty benches except for the Minister. So, on reflection, the Amendment is not so attractive as it might seem at first sight.
12.35 p.m.
Mr. Pritt: I want to refer first to the one little argument put forward by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), who seems to have detached himself from the Government in this matter. I gathered that he felt, as an ordinary Member of the House, it was a little wrong to give a particular half-hour special sanctity as against other half-hours.
It is worth while pointing out that that does happen during the luncheon period. There are certain hours in the day, or certain half-hours, when a count cannot be called. To add one more period cannot matter very much. I suggest that the argument put forward by the right hon. Gentleman is not a very strong one. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) said that if a half-hour is made sacrosanct there is a strong temptation for some mischievous people to come in and stop the Debate at the end of that half-hour. I would hesitate to put my-self against the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale as to the working of a mischievous mind. Then, he said, there would be no House. Very often, in the literal sense, there is no House at any time during the Adjournment. I myself have discussed a few very important things on the Adjournment, and heard very many important things raised by other hon. Members on the Adjournment, when there were only about five people in the Chamber. That state of affairs has received publicity; it has appeared in HANSARD, and it has very often extracted from the Government some improvement.
It would be a matter of great regret that such discussion should be stopped. I do not think that the knowledge that there could be no count would make the attendance in the Chamber any smaller. I think the people who would attend would be those who wanted to hear the Debate at the time, and were not only interested in reading it in the newspaper the next morning. There is a great deal

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in the point. As the right hon. Gentleman, who was speaking for the Government, said, this half-hour in wartime is a matter of the utmost importance. It is the Private Member's only chance, and I am in favour of giving Private Members that chance.
Mr. Bevan: I have never counted the House out in my life; I do not believe in it.
Mr. Pritt: I am dealing with the general argument now. That half-hour is the one chance Private Members have got. It is peculiarly susceptible, too, because of the time of day at which it comes. If the opportunity to count out the House is to be given not only to the mischievous, but to those who seriously desire to prevent some particular point from being discussed, it provides a private weapon against a Private Member's only remaining chance. I have raised matters on the Adjournment which I have thought were important, and I have sometimes got very valuable public ventilation. I have sometimes even got something from the Government as a result, and I think if the House were to give this additional sanction to Private Members' rights it would be a great thing.
12.39 p.m.
Mr. G. Strauss: I was at first very much attracted by this Amendment, because I have always thought that the weapon of counting-out the House in order to gag either a subject or an hon. Member was a most unworthy one, and one which should not be tolerated by this House. However, when I consider this matter further, I am doubtful whether it would be wise for the House to accept the Amendment as it stands, because it appears to me to be exceedingly illogical, and I think we should hesitate before we accept an illogical Amendment in order to avoid an abuse which, in point of fact, rarely occurs. As far as I know, it has occurred only on two occasions during the last year or so, and on the last occasion—which I think was a quite outrageous one—I happened to be the victim. If this Amendment were passed, as worded on the Order Paper, it would not avoid a repetition of that abuse in the slightest degree.
May I remind the House what happened? I raised a matter which I thought
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was very important—naturally, every hon. Member who raises a matter on the Adjournment thinks it is important—on a Friday at about half past two. It affected the fate of, I thought, thousands of our Allies inside Germany, and it was a Debate which ranged over a wide number of important matters. In that Debate the hon. and gallant Member for Marylebone (Captain Cunningham-Reid) made a speech. When, later in the day, at about 5 o'clock, an official reply was being given by the Foreign Office representative, that representative had barely opened his mouth to make a few preliminary remarks when the hon. and gallant Member for Marylebone got up and counted out the House. I felt very angry that he should have taken that action, and I thought that it was quite outrageous that he should have prevented the Government making a reply in an important Debate in which he himself had taken part.
Captain Cunningham-Reid: What the hon. Member has been saying sounds very much like a "Tribune" article, because he has only stated one side of the case and has avoided mentioning that the hon. and gallant Member for Marylebone was himself counted out on the previous day on the same subject and, indeed, counted out four times previous to that.
Mr. Strauss: If some hon. Member does a silly and unworthy thing in counting out another hon. Member there is no reason why the hon. Member counted out should do the same thing, particularly in a Debate in which he has had ample opportunity of developing his own argument. The point I am making is that we would not avoid this abuse by adopting this Amendment, because the Amendment merely makes the first half-hour sacrosanct and, consequently, when a Debate on the Adjournment takes some time and the Minister who is replying for the Government winds up at the end, there will be nothing in this Amendment to prevent the hon. and gallant Member, or anybody else, getting up before the Minister has spoken and counting out the House.
Captain Cunningham-Reid: I want to explain that the hon. Member has misunderstood the purpose of this Amend-

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ment. We want to ensure that an hon. Member bringing up a matter for discussion on the Adjournment can have sufficient time to state his case and for the Minister to answer directly afterwards, as generally occurs.
Mr. Strauss: I do not see why this half-hour should alone be sacrosanct. The Adjournment sometimes takes three-quarters of an hour, or longer, and it seems to me quite illogical to suggest that that half-an-hour should be freed from the weapon of counting-out the House. As I have said, I dislike the weapon of counting-out. But I am perfectly sure that we should be making a mistake if we put in our Orders for the Session an illogical rule such as this, that the first half-hour of a certain type of Debate should he free from the abuse of counting-out. For that reason I suggest to the House that, whatever it may feel about the Adjournment and the weapon of counting-out a Member with whom there is disagreement or who is disliked, it should hesitate before inserting this illogical Amendment into our Orders for the coming Session.
12.46 p.m.
Commander King-Hall: I do not want to detain the House for more than a moment or two in order to put one point which I do not think has yet been mentioned. The arguments are nicely balanced on either side and there is a good deal of supposition as to what the result will be, but I personally think that we should try this proposal for one Session to see whether the fears expressed by the Leader of the House and my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) are justified. I suggest that we try this out for this Session in order to see what the result will be.
12.47 p.m.
Major Peto: I have listened to this Debate with great care, and I think we are inclined to split hairs on the question of whether the time should be half an hour, three-quarters of an hour or a little longer. I believe that something more fundamental is involved in this matter, and it is that back bench Members feel that their last privilege may possibly be whittled away. The half-hour customarily given on an Adjournment is a precious privilege, and in these times almost the last one we have.
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In saying that, I agree with the hon. and gallant Member for St. Marylebone (Captain Cunningham-Reid). I suggest that we safeguard the privilege of back benchers to the utmost limit of our power until happier times arrive and we are given back some of the powers we used to have.
12.50 p.m.
Captain Cunningham-Reid: In view of what has taken place, and as we have had an opportunity of ventilating our case, Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to withdrawn my Amendment. In doing so, I hope that in future after what has been said there will not be any countings out for purely vindictive reasons.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Ordered:
"That during the present Session—

(1) Government business shall have precedence at every sitting;

(2) The following provisions shall have effect as respects public Bills:

(a) no Bills other than Government Bills shall be introduced;

(b) whenever the House is adjourned for more than one day, notices of Amendments, new Clauses Or new Schedules (whether they are to be moved in Committee or on Report) received by the Clerks at the Table at any time not later than 4.30 p.m. on the last day of Adjournment may be accepted by them as if the House was sitting;

(c) notices of Amendments, new Clauses or new Schedules to be moved in Committee may be accepted by the Clerks at the Table before a Bill has been read a Second time;

(d) a new Clause may be moved on Report without notice, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 37.

(3) Whenever the House is adjourned for more than one day, notices of Questions received by the Clerks at the Table at any time not later than 4.30 p.m. on the last day of Adjournment may be accepted—

(a) if received before 4.30 p.m. on the penultimate day of Adjournment, as if they had been given on that day at a time when the House was sitting, and

(b) if received thereafter, as if they had been given on the last day of Adjournment at a time when the House was sitting.

(4) For the purposes of this Order the expression 'day of Adjournment' means a day on which the House is not sitting, not being a Saturday or Sunday:

(5) Paragraph (2) of Standing Order No. 1 shall have effect as if all the words after

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'clock' were omitted and the following words were substituted therefor:

'or, if proceedings exempted as hereinafter provided from the operation of this Order are under discussion at or after the hour appointed under paragraph (3) of this Order for the interruption of Business, half-an-hour after the conclusion of such proceedings, Mr. Speaker shall adjourn the House without Question put.'
(6) The following paragraphs shall have effect in substitution for paragraphs (8) and (9) of Standing Order No. 1:
(8) A Motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown, either with or without notice and either at the commencement of public Business or at any time thereafter, to be decided without Amendment or Debate, to the effect either—

(a) That the proceedings on any specified business be exempted at this day's sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order "Sittings of the House": or

(b) That the proceedings on any specified business be exempted at this day's sitting from the provisions of the Standing Order "Sittings of the House" for a specified period after the hour appointed for the interruption of Business.

(9) If a Motion made under the preceding paragraph be agreed to, the business so specified shall not be interrupted if it is under discussion at the hour appointed for the interruption of Business, may be entered upon at any hour although opposed and, if under discussion when the Business is postponed under the provisions of any Standing Order, may be resumed and proceeded with, though opposed, after the interruption of Business.
Provided that business exempted for a specified period shall not be entered upon, or be resumed after the expiration of that period, and, if not concluded earlier, shall be interrupted at the end of that period, and the relevant provisions of paragraphs (3) and (4) of this Standing Order shall then apply.
(10) Provided always that not more than one Motion under Paragraph (8) may be made at any one sitting, and that, after any business exempted from the operation of the Order is disposed of, the remaining Business of the sitting shall be dealt with according to the provisions applicable to Business taken after the hour appointed for the interruption of Business.'"

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  KING'S SPEECH

    DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS
    [Second Day]
    Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [29 th November]:
    "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, as followeth:
    Most Gracious Sovereign,
    We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Gt. Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."—[Captain Sidney.]
    Question again proposed.
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: After this long interlude between the Debate yesterday and its resumption to-day, I think I ought to say to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, who has been at the service of the House all the morning, that if he has to go off now to an engagement I shall quite understand. The present Parliament, we are told, is due to expire. The Coalition Government is coming to an end. Already the residuary legatees cast expectant eyes on the estate. It is evident that the parties will dispute the inheritance. That is a pity. It is not only for its services in the conduct of the war that the present Administration will be remembered; it came together for the purpose of destroying an enemy overseas, but it has performed more constructive services. In this King's Speech, following upon the White Papers and the legislation we have already had, we can already see the impressive ground plan of the new Britain. Future generations, it has already been decided, are to have wider opportunities of education. Our towns and cities are to be planned. Now comes the enlargement of national insurance, to cover not only one but all the sections of the population, and to bring relief in the most needful moments between birth and death. There are to be family allowances. Higher levels of nutrition are to be maintained, presumably by a continuance of the present Exchequer contribution. More houses are to be built with the aid of subsidies. All this adds to the edifice,

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    both in height and space, first erected by the Liberals of 1906.
    These items alone will add some hundreds of millions of pounds to the Budget. They represent an enhanced sense of social and neighbourly responsibility in the State. That is not all. For the first time in a democratic, as contrasted with a totalitarian, community, the State assumes an obligation to assure a high and stable level of employment. The community can only distribute what it creates. No attention has been directed to the source from which these improvements are to be financed. The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir W. Beveridge), who is such a welcome addition to this House and who has such a vast experience, when he drew up his insurance scheme postulated that full employment was a pre-requisite of the benefits being forthcoming. He postulated that as a condition. He has since written another Report—this time less officially—in which he has defined what he means by full employment. He stresses that he does not mean mere occupation, the mere provision of work for the sake of providing it. He means work of a productive kind which can raise the standard of living of the community. That is what is meant. Does it not behove us, therefore, to inquire in what respect the foundations of our economic strength are intact? That is not an academic question; it is a matter of fact.
    By what process did this small island, on the confines of civilisation, become transformed into the most thickly populated and richly endowed commercial community that the world had ever seen? To what was that attributable? And do the circumstances still prevail? To what is to be ascribed the great influence exercised by this nation at every juncture of modern civilised development? Whence, and how, did it derive its power? In the first place, there is the national character, the fibre of which emerges strengthened from this war, as we can see from that remarkable publication giving the statistics of our war effort. But there are more tangible considerations. There was the good fortune of our geographical position, which conferred upon us immunity from attack, and which enabled us to go peacefully about our avocations when Continental countries were being repeatedly ravaged and drained. There
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    was the station of this island on the main routes of Atlantic trade. There was the configuration of our coast, which has more safe harbours in proportion to its length than any country on the mainland of Europe. These ports acted as a magnet for trade, navigators preferring to come here rather than go to the Continent with their goods. Thus we became the carriers, almost in monopoly, of the whole world, and our permanent way, being the sea, required no upkeep. It was cheap.
    In the next phase coal was discovered, conveniently placed next to iron ore, thus enabling us to put to profit the inventions of the industrial revolution. We emerged not only as the carriers, owning the greater part of the shipping of the world, but as the manufacturers of the world, the suppliers of the world and the insurers of the world. Our bills of exchange were the currency of the world. The credit of the world was British credit. We were the emporium, the centre of gravity of the activities of the terrestrial globe. This position continued up till the last war and though it was impaired in some degree by the last war it remained effective until 1929. Then an important change occurred. The United States whose position had been transformed during the hostilities from a debtor to a creditor nation failed to manipulate the mechanism which in our charge had given abundance and wealth to the nations.
    The technique that we had applied was to accept payment for the debts owing to us in goods or by re-lending to the debtor the money in order that his production might be increased. The United States did no such thing. They instituted a high tariff, thus refusing to allow payment of the debts owing to them, which were then considerable, in goods and they recalled their loans. Having refused to take payment by any normal means, they acquired 10,000,000 dollars' worth of gold—almost all the gold currency in the world. They withdrew from the money market of the world in three years from 1929 onwards £5,000,000,000 worth of dollars. This shattered the whole structure of international trade. Prices fell calamitously. This simple cause, without our looking for involved explanations, is enough to tell the world why we had a depression between the two wars. What happened? At one moment, according to

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    a League of Nations publication, there were 100,000,000 persons thrown out of work and told virtually that their services were of no use to society. In addition to the privation caused, to the sacrifice of savings and to the dejection and misery came psychological effects of the most far reaching character. In this foetid economic atmosphere were incubated the germs of war.
    We were dethroned from our position as a creditor nation in the first world war. The deleterious effects upon our position of the second world war are even greater. Should we not crystallise our past experiences into a clear-cut national policy? What deductions are we to make? Surely the first is that the natural advantage of our geographical position is impaired. We, too, like the Continental nations previously, suffer the physical destruction of our cities, our factories and our homes. If in the first world war, originating in Europe, we lost our credit, and in the second world war, originating in Europe, we actually suffer physical destruction and find our manufacturing assets wasting and our commercial good will to some extent departed, does it not behove us as a primary consideration to have regard to our flank on the Continent? What is our policy in that matter? Is our policy, having fought this war, merely to reconstitute the nations of Western Europe as they were and say, "That is the end"? Do not our past experiences show that we cannot stand aloof from the organisation of Western Europe?
    I should be the last to wish to embarrass the Foreign Secretary by asking him to make a declaration. There has been an offer by Belgium to give us the same kind of strategic outposts, and economic outposts as well, in that country as we gave to the United States in the West Indies. There is an offer. It is a matter for consideration. It is sometimes suggested that any advocacy of an economic, political or strategic unity in Western Europe is a threat to Russia. There should be no such thought in our minds, and if that thought exists in the minds of Russians it can easily be removed. There is nothing more challenging in our desire to organise the strength of the nations on our flank than there is in Russia organising the nations on her flank. I derive that as the first of the lessons of our past experience.
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    The second lesson is surely that America from the first great war, and now Russia from the second, have emerged as great economic federations. This is the size of the modern unit—the United States and Russia. Britain is no counterpart to federations of that size but the British Empire is. It was the policy at the Ottawa Conference in 1932—there the bases were at any rate established by men who foresaw the development, men who were clairvoyant—there the policy was to make at any rate the beginning of an economic unity in the British Empire. What has happened to that policy? We go to Chicago for a Conference on Civil Aviation and the Empire speaks not with one, but with many voices. One voice would be decisive. Many voices are confusing. The subject matter of this Conference is vital to us. Communications are the life blood of the British Empire. We are cutting our own veins. Some compensation for the loss of our supremacy in shipping tonnage would be afforded if we at any rate secured our aerial communications.
    The next deduction is that our supremacy in shipping is challenged because the United States have built 30,000,000 tons. I accept what the Prime Minister has said with a full and grateful heart, and everything that can be said, about the generosity of the United States, but these matters have to be recorded, for another deduction from our experience is that the United States now have a productive capacity in excess of their consumptive capacity and must sell abroad. That is a very important and, in some contexts, a very disturbing fact. They have built up an artificial rubber industry, costing 750,000,000 dollars, which can supply 80 per cent. of the world's requirements, possibly at an increased cost, but we have relied hitherto on Malaya to give us the dollars that we need to make the payments to which the Prime Minister referred, but about which he did not at this stage desire to be precise. They have built up an aluminium industry, capable of producing more than was previously produced in the whole world. These are economic facts and there should proceed from them deductions of value in determining our future policy.
    Does it not follow that in future our industrial and commercial success will depend, not on natural advantages, as in

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    the past, but upon the pursuit of a clear conscious aim? What should that aim be? It must be to attain the greatest volume of international trade. You cannot justify a country of this size having 44,000,000 people except on a basis of international trade. We have nothing here in the way of raw materials in abundance except coal. Almost all the raw materials of our factories have to be imported. We have made a start with Lend-Lease. We are to use United States materials in the construction of our houses. Twelve per cent. of the content of our houses came even before the war from overseas. A fifth of our national income depends on our import trade. There can be no question of our eliminating the export trade. Its regaining and increasing is the first aim and it must be consciously pursued.
    What must be done? In the first place, manfacturers must be told at the earliest possible date what is to be the method of trading in the future. Are we going to trade by bulk purchase through Government agency, or are we going to rely upon the same mainsprings of private enterprise as in the past? The question is not only relevant, but urgent. With what countries are we going to be encouraged to trade? There is no use making warm shirts for hot climates. The manufacturers must be told. Then they can design and procure the plant. This brings me to an observation which has occurred to me many times. In the United States one notices that the manufacturers and industrialists are taken into constant consultation. One almost has the impression that they are not oblivious of the connection between the winning of the war and the increased prosperity of the United States. They are consulted. That is not done to the same extent here.
    For instance, in civil aviation, a policy which is vital to us, some of the principal shipowners who have experience of transport will tell you that they are not able to obtain from the Government any statement of policy. We should bring into closer co-operation those elements in the community on which our wealth must depend. Here one has the impression that the organisation is more bureaucratic. That is not a reflection on civil servants, because civil servants are told to discharge certain duties and they discharge them. But one has that imprestion, and the danger is that we shall
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    become too much entangled in bureaucracy. I say to those who call attention to the defects of capitalism, which has won great achievements in the past, that in no country where capitalism has been destroyed have the working-classes succeeded to power. It has always been the bureaucracy. That is the danger here.
    We should release the springs of enterprise and avoid every control that is not necessary and cannot be justified, whether it is by a cartel, a Government or a trade union, so that the maximum of enterprise can be freed for action. One respect in which the Government can help in particular is in the matter of taxation. I know that the Chancellor has made certain concessions in this respect. It is, however, interesting to read—because we are concerned here with comparative costs and with competitive industrial countries—these words in Spaulding's work on the Income Tax in Great Britain and the United States:
    "On the matters of depreciation, obsolescence and wasting assets the Americans began with an Income Tax law which was considerably more generous than the British. … British Income Tax law gives no allowance for depletion of wasting assets; but the rapid absorption of mineral deposits is a very much more important question in the United States than it is in Engand."
    The American system is to allow the maximum allowance. What is allowed in England is allowed after a great many queries, whereas the policy should be to encourage industry to scrap machinery.
    When one comes to consider what is the basis of success in industry, one finds it is productivity. The output per head is the test. The difference between the non-industrialised nation and the industrialised nation is that in the case of a nation like China, all the work is done by hand, and as industry and economic welfare develop, less and less is done by hand and more is done by machinery. We have much leeway to make up in this respect. The average output per head in an American factory or mine is twice what it is in a British factory or mine. That discrepancy is easily explained, but it must be attended to. The explanation does not involve the slightest criticism of British working men or industrialists. The explanation lies in one single word, and that is "machinery." A powerful sidelight is thrown upon this matter in the Platt Report. The President of the Board of Trade sent out this mission to America under Sir Frank Platt, who is

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    the Cotton Controller, and composed the mission of representatives of both sides of industry, to discover why we could not satisfy our requirements in textiles. This is the Report, and I have no doubt that it explains what is required to be done in a great many other industries:
    "There need be no hesitation in saying the U.S. industry is very far ahead of the Lancashire industry in production per man hour. At the same time it would be correct to say that there is no reason to suppose that the skill of the operatives of Lancashire is one whit inferior to that of the U.S.A. operatives."
    That is a very welcome encouragement of the services rendered by Lancashire industry.
    Mr. George Griffiths: It is true in the mining industry, too.
    Mr. Hore-Belisha: I have said so—it is probably universally true—and if I could say it myself in more emphatic language I would. The Report continues:
    "On the contrary every one of us felt that the ability of the Lancashire cotton operative remains unsurpassed."
    The Report points out that to put him on an equality with his United States counterpart very heavy capital expenditure would have to be undertaken. In the United States automatic looms cover 95 per cent. of the industry, while in Great Britain they cover no more than 5 per cent. The Report concludes:
    "Our feelings at the conclusion of this visit, and the considerable thought which has thereby been forced upon each one of us, are feelings of great concern. … The machinery employed is of a more modern type than that of Great Britain generally and the policy—not perhaps yet fully extended—is to let the machine do more work and the worker do less."
    Here is the policy to be pursued by the Government in respect of every industry, and I have indicated certain lines which it might follow. We have many assets in setting out to re-establish ourselves on the old, and even on a higher level. We have great purchasing power, which can control to some extent the markets with which we deal. We have our war record, which is unsurpassable, showing as it does, in regard to aeroplanes and radio equipment for instance, that where the demand is there and the machinery is there the output per head can exceed that of the United States. Our competitors in Germany and Japan will, as a by-product of this war, become pulp. We have cer-
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    tain assets and certain advantages, but it is important to bear in mind that, if the efforts which the King's Speech delineates to create a better Britain, and to raise the standard of living in Britain are to prevail and become effective, we must attend with equal insistence to the economic foundations on which alone they can be built. Perhaps the greatest asset of all that we have is what we have done and are doing, alike in the factory and in the field, and we can repose ourselves on the assurance that we, at any rate, were the only people in the world who formed the ultimate bastion of freedom.
    1.26 p.m.
    Mr. Ivor Thomas: No one will be more glad than I that my right hon. Friend the Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha) has lent his powerful advocacy to the cause of a Western association, in which Great Britain is bound with France to play a leading part. I would like to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary on the progress that has been made with this idea since it was last ventilated here. It has naturally brought forth criticisms, but these criticisms are due largely to misunderstanding. What is the real reason for the spontaneous desire—and we cannot emphasise too much the word "spontaneous"—on the part of the countries of Western Europe to get together? As I understand the matter, it is primarily to see that these countries in the West of Europe are never again overwhelmed by the sudden might of Germany. In the last 80 years or so France has been overrun by Germany three times, Belgium twice, Holland once, Denmark once, and we have ourselves been twice involved in war. Surely that is sufficient reason for us to desire to get together and see that it shall never happen again.
    This ought to be made abundantly clear both in the Soviet Union and in the United States in order that their criticisms may be met. My right hon. Friend the Member for Devonport has referred to the Russian criticisms. In the United States any scheme that is put forward will naturally receive some criticism, for that is the land of the freest of all speech. I would point out, however, that already many of the most responsible American leaders recognise the necessity for such a Western association. I would like to

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    refer in particular to the support given to it by that great newspaper, "The New York Times," which, after pointing out the dangers that are possibly inherent in such a scheme, said:
    "Such a bloc can easily become"—
    "bloc" is not the word I should use—
    "the nucleus for a new organisation of Europe, not only for mutual defence, but also for political and economic collaboration for the benefit of all."
    If I understand the Americans, I think that they have one characteristic which they share with the Deity; the Americans help those who help themselves. As this idea is expanded, I think they will come to realise that our getting together in the West of Europe for mutual security is something that should commend itself to all wise Americans. I do not wish to follow in any further detail the speech of my right hon. Friend, because there is a special matter that I desire to raise, and I might be led far a field if I followed him.
    I wish to refer to a somewhat unusual event which has taken place in the last few days. The world has been made aware that His Majesty's Government have interposed their veto on the appointment of Count Sforza as Italian Foreign Minister. This is a most unusual occurrence in the diplomatic world. I will not say that it is unprecedented, but the precedents are not very encouraging. The last that I can find comes from February, 1938, when Mussolini demanded the resignation of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and two days later that resignation was made.
    Mr. G. Griffiths: Made voluntarily, was it not? I think I remember it.
    Mr. Thomas: If we look a little farther back into history, hon. Members older than myself will remember the stir that was caused in 1905 when that distinguished French Foreign Minister, M. Delcassé, was dismissed on a German demand. Neither of those precedents is very encouraging. Few things have done my right hon. Friend so much good as the knowledge that Mussolini had demanded his resignation, while the Delcassé affaire was undoubtedly one of the factors making for had blood between Germany and France. The step that His Majesty's Government have now taken may have good reasons, but they are reasons that
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    ought to be given to the House, for this step, I fear, is one that will not promote those friendly relations between Great Britain and the new democratic Italy which I have understood to be the policy of His Majesty's Government.
    Let me say at this point that I feel no interest in Count Sforza as such. I know him, and I have had correspondence with him, but it is not on any personal grounds that I wish to speak to-day. The essential point, the only point that matters, is that the six parties constituting the Italian Government desire to have Count Sforza as Foreign Minister and that he cannot be appointed Foreign Minister because the British representative, Sir Noel Charles, has intimated that he would be regarded in an unfavourable light by His Majesty's Government. That is a most serious position. I am willing to be convinced that there are good reasons for it, but I have not yet seen any reasons sufficiently convincing.
    When I want to know the views of the Foreign Office I turn in the first instance to the articles written by Mr. W. N. Ewer in the "Daily Herald." Over a long period it has been their distinguishing characteristic to reflect the views of the Foreign Office more closely than the diplomatic correspondence of any other newspaper that I know; and what does Mr. Ewer say on this subject? He says that Count Sforza's ambition
    "has been a continuously disturbing factor."
    Ewer says he is ambitious; and Ewer is an honourable man. But what really does this question of ambition matter? Are the occupants of the Front Bench opposite going to say that ambition shall debar a man from office? I think it would be a case of persons in glasshouses throwing stones if they should take that line. I doubt very much whether Count Sforza is really as ambitious as is suggested. He is over 70 years of age now and there cannot be very much left in life for a man of that age.
    Hon. Members: Oh.
    Mr. G. Griffiths: He has another 20 years on top of that.
    Mr. Thomas: Well, shall I say he cannot have more than one or two decades of life to look forward to? I should have thought that legitimate ambition, kept within bounds, is a necessary ingredient in a political life. Mr. Ewer makes

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    another statement, which may get us closer to the heart of the problem. He says:
    "There has long been suspicion that Count Sforza has been working to whittle down Italy's armistice obligations and to weaken Allied control."
    What does that mean? It means nothing more or less than that Count Sforza is a good Italian patriot. Before we can judge of the accuracy of that statement we must know what the Armistice terms are. His Majesty's Government have not yet made them known, although they have been frequently requested to do so by the Italian Government and by Members of this House. Will they not now tell us what are the Armistice terms imposed on Italy which it is alleged that Count Sforza desires to whittle down? I am myself inclined to believe that if I were in his position I should wish to do the same. The reluctance of His Majesty's Government to publish these details lends colour to the view that the terms are such that they will not bear the light of day. If the Government deny this, will they let us have them to see what they are?
    When I cannot get guidance from Mr. Ewer on the views of the Foreign Office I turn in the second place to "The Times," although what I am now going to quote is not from their diplomatic correspondent but from their Rome correspondent, and there the reason given is this. Sir Noel Charles, it is said, told the Italian Ministers
    "that the constant wrangling among the six parties which professed to represent the Italian nation had caused much concern in London."
    I ask us to be practical and realistic about this alleged wrangling. At a time when we are envisaging the end of our own Coalition, can we throw stones at the six Italian parties for such disputes as take place among them? Whatever wrangling they may have there has never been any divergence of view on the one essential thing, that is, clearing the Germans out of Italy as quickly as possible. The main complaint has been that they have not been allowed to mobilise their full effort for that purpose. In fact, the unity that has been achieved in Italy, both on the political and on the industrial side, is remarkable. I would single out for notice the fact that, for the first time in Europe, the Christian Democrats, the Socialists and the Communists have come
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    together in the same trade unions. That is a phenomenon of the utmost importance, and it has been achieved in this Italy which is said to be the centre of so much wrangling.
    These are the theories given in the newspapers for this unusual action, but I have heard other allegations. I have heard it stated in very well-informed circles in London that the real reason is that a struggle is going on between the Soviet Union and Great Britain for the control of Italy and that Count Sforza has been too much inclined to the Communist side in this struggle. I do not believe that story for a moment. I think it is complete nonsense, but it is being stated in well-informed circles as an explanation of this unusual step. As far as my own letters with Count Sforza show—and there is no need for him to have concealed his thoughts in these letters, because I have taken precautions that they do not pass through the hands of the censor—he takes the view that the best antidote to Communism is a full-blooded programme of social reform, and that if the Allies should try to rivet the Monarchy, or any neo-Fascist elements, on Italy it would inevitably have the result of throwing Italy into Communist hands. But, as I say, I do not believe that that is the explanation.
    There is another explanation offered and I think it deserves some examination. This is not the first time that a ban has been put on this Italian Minister. I propose, with the leave of the House, to make a quotation from a paper which I have before me and which purports to give a shorthand report of the meeting between Marshal Badoglio, General Eisenhower, Field Marshal Alexander and other high Allied officers at Malta, on 29th September, 1943, on board H.M.S. "Nelson." In the course of that meeting, General Eisenhower asked Marshal Badoglio:
    "What do you think of Sforza?"
    Badoglio replied:
    "I know Sforza well and therefore I have a personal opinion about him, but I understand that His Majesty—"
    that is to say King Victor Emmanuel—
    "will not accept him, because it seems that in the past he has manifested anti-monarchical ideas."
    At that point, General Smith and Field Marshal Alexander passed a note to

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    General Eisenhower, who read it and went on thus:
    "It could be proved to me that Sforza has sent to Badoglio a message promising, with certain conditions, his collaboration. What do you think of it?"
    Mr. G. Strauss: The passages that my hon. Friend is reading are extraordinarily interesting, but I think the House would like to know their authenticity. My hon. Friend is reading what was apparently a private conversation but it will help the House very much to know exactly what it is.
    Mr. Thomas: I am very sorry. I should have done so before, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for pointing it out. The conversation appears in the paper "Italia Libera", which is the organ of the Party of Action, in the issue 15th March, 1944.
    Mr. G. Strauss: Was it a public discussion, then?
    Mr. Thomas: No. I will give the facts. The discussion, which is very long, opens with a note saying that
    "a high personality, full of indignation at what is happening these days, has shown to us, and permitted us to take notes of, an important document, the official report of the meeting between Badoglio, General Eisenhower, General Alexander and other high Allied officers."
    The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): You have got their word for it.
    Mr. Thomas: I am willing to show the paper to the Foreign Secretary in the course of the Debate. If he can say that it is erroneous I shall be very willing to withdraw. I have made my own inquiries, and I have satisfied myself that it is authentic, but the Foreign Secretary's sources are better than mine, and I am willing to be guided by what he says. I ought to add before proceeding that no such message was sent by Count Sforza as alleged. Marshal Badoglio went on:
    "I am aware of this message, but I must insist on the point that His Majesty will not allow that Sforza should be accepted."
    General Eisenhower is then stated to have said:
    "Italy will have need of American collaboration and aid and Sforza is sufficiently well viewed by public opinion in the United States."
    And so the discussion went on for a little while, until it came to the point when
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    drinks were ordered. When the conversation was resumed—
    Mr. Rhys Davies: Were the drinks ordered before or after the conversation?
    Mr. Thomas: The drinks were taken after the conversation I have related, and they went on to discuss military matters. We all know that the British and American Governments made many objections to Count Sforza's return to his native country. These objections were eventually overcome, and I was under the impression that the past had been forgotten, and that he would be allowed to take a leading part in his own country. Can it be the case that Count Sforza's attitude to the Italian Monarchy has made him persona non grata to His Majesty's Government? He has, since his return to Italy, used the most violent expressions about the Monarchy, far more violent than I should ever have used myself; but then I am not an Italian, and even the Welsh temperament is not quite so violent as the Italian. May it be that this objection still persists, and that although the King has now gone into semi-retirement, Count Sforza is still under a ban for the attitude he has taken towards the King since his return?
    It may very well be that there are many explanations of this step, and I am inclined to think myself—I wish to give the Foreign Secretary all the help I can in his reply, if he will be good enough to reply—that in a long public career such a diplomatist as Count Sforza has, naturally, made many enemies. I find them wherever I go. But that is not the point. What matters is not his standing in this country but his standing among his own countrymen. There is the essential fact that the Six Parties unite in their desire to have him as Foreign Minister, and opposition comes, not from Italian sources, but from His Majesty's Government. This need not be an abstract question, for we know the policy that Count Sforza would have pursued if he had become Foreign Minister. A very little while ago in the Teatro Adriano in Rome, on 20th August, he made a speech of which, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for greater accuracy I have obtained a copy.
    In this long speech, he lays down his main ideas on foreign policy. What are

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    they? The first—and I emphasise this—is that of the most loyal collaboration with the Allies. Indeed, he says that the history of the world will never record such a cordial, loyal and generous co-operation as that of the Armies which could have entered as invaders, but which instead presented themselves as brothers. Surely, there could be no more generous tribute to the Allies than that. The next indication he gives of his foreign policy is one which must surely commend itself to this House. It is that Italians will co-operate with courage and serenity in the solution of every international problem that concerns them, on one condition only, that there be no discussion of Italian problems as such, but only Italian sides of European problems. That surely is something which ought to commend itself to all of us. [Interruption.] Certainly, I think it is of general application.
    The rest of the speech deals with particular problems. There is a passage expressing abhorrence of the Fascist attack on Ethiopia. There is another expressing similar abhorrence of the attack on Greece, and saying that if the Dodecanese people desire to be under Greek sovereignty, the Greeks ought to have the Dodecanese. There is a similar passage of friendship towards Yugoslavia, all leading to the theme that frontiers ought not to be written in ink, but in pencil. There, surely, is a foreign policy that ought to be acceptable to us, and I am still left extremely puzzled to know why this ban has been imposed on such a Minister.
    Dr. Haden Guest: Will my hon. Friend be good enough to enlighten the House on whether, in that comprehensive statement, Count Sforza stated his position as to the return of Italian Colonies to Italy, and other matters of that kind, which are rather significant and important?
    Mr. Thomas: Yes, there is a long passage on Italian Colonies which I should be willing to show to my hon. Friend afterwards. The question of their return is left vague—deliberately vague, I imagine—but Count Sforza's attitude on that point is well known. He desires the return of the Italian Colonies to Italy. Perhaps that is the objection. If it is, I hope it will be
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    made known at the end of this Debate, because it ought to be made known.
    Dr. Guest: I hope my hon. Friend has made it clear that he is speaking for himself on this matter, and is not speaking for a representative number of Members in this House, or especially on this side.
    Mr. Thomas: At the moment, I am merely giving Count Sforza's ideas. I think the customs of this House are familiar enough for Members to know that I am speaking for myself alone. I think a case has been made out why the Foreign Secretary should tell this House the reasons that have induced His Majesty's Government to take this very grave step. Whatever objections may have been felt in Italy in the past to Count Sforza, this is quite certain to weld the whole nation behind him, as well as the Italian emigrants abroad. It is clear that it has already done so.
    If I had the leisure and the House the patience I could have filled my speech with quotations from my right hon. Friend during the period of non-intervention in Spain on the dangers of intervening in the internal affairs of another country. It may be that there is a perfectly good explanation. His Majesty's Government may have sources of information, unknown to the rest of us, which make it impossible for them, under the terms of the Armistice, to accept Count Sforza. But I am a little suspicious on this question. I think foreign countries often have a most exaggerated opinion of the British Intelligence Service. If my right hon. Friend will look up the files at the Foreign Office I think he will find a message saying that Ercoli was getting very jealous of the renown now being won by Togliatti, the writer being quite ignorant that they were one and the same person. I am afraid that is a typical kind of message received from agents abroad. I have given all the information known to me, and I am still left very puzzled. I hope that at the end of this Debate the Foreign Secretary will either be able to give us a very convincing reason why this grave step should have been taken, or will be prepared to wipe it out and remove the veto.
    1.54 p.m.
    Major Mott-Radclyffe: I hope the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. I. Thomas) will forgive me if I do not follow him straight away in his remarks

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    about the Italian situation, and into the very attractive field of discussion as to exactly at what stage in the proceedings of the conference between Marshal Badoglio and General Eisenhower, which he has just described, drinks were served. For the last 18 months, it has been my good fortune—because that is how I regard it—to serve with my regiment in the Eighth Army, in the Middle East and in Italy. The House will forgive me if I say that it would indeed be an under-statement, to describe by the word "welcome" the way in which the recent leave scheme for those who have long overseas service will have been received. Anyone who has had contact with the troops in that area must, at one time or other, have felt just a little anxious at the far-reaching effects produced by long separation from families and homes in this country. Any of us who may have commanded platoons, or companies, or even higher formations, must all, at one time or another, have felt a certain sense of helplessness in trying to advise upon or straighten out heartbreaking domestic cases, in which the individual concerned was unable to get home and deal with those matters himself. In this island we are a home-loving people, and I think we would do well not to minimise in our future national life the important place which the family unit will hold.
    I am well aware that the long service which the troops overseas have had to bear has been brought about by causes quite outside our control. In the earlier days it was due to lack of shipping plus geography. More recently, it has been due rather to the question of man-power. I am equally well aware that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War has done what he could to reduce that period of overseas service to a minimum. What I am not quite so happy about is that it seemed to me, from the other end, so to speak, that many of the statements made and the reasons given, certainly logical, watertight and adequate reasons, for being unable to reduce this period of overseas service have lacked just that one essential element which is required when dealing with what is essentially a human problem, that is the human touch. Logic couched in Civil Service phrases is apt to act as rather a cold shower on a man who may be faced with a most difficult domestic affair from a distance of something over 1,000 miles.
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    Under the new leave scheme I think that something like one out of every four men will be able to get home. But if I might make a suggestion, with all diffidence, bearing in mind my very junior status both in anno domini and experience in this House, it would be that, at an early opportunity, some member of the Government, in my own humble view preferably my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, because he alone could do it in his own inimitable way in the language of which he is alone the master, should send some message in a speech or broadcast, not of sympathy—that is not what is wanted—but of assurance to the many troops who just fail to qualify for the Python scheme, and who are unlucky in the draw for leave, that everything that can be done has been done to reduce their period of service, that we in this country recognise the extra burden of long separation from home which they have borne in addition to the normal strain that is inseparable from war-time conditions, and that we shall not forget them in the years to come. Such a broadcast by the Prime Minister would produce just the psychological fillip which is required.
    In Italy the Fifth and the Eighth Armies, under the leadership of that remarkable genius Field-Marshal Alexander, have liberated more than half the country. Closely behind them come another body of men, whose ranks, like the staff of Field-Marshal Alexander, are integrated British and American. Their task is, so to speak, to consolidate liberation. I refer to the Allied Commission. This body, often criticised, sometimes forgotten when bouquets are being handed out, frequently misunderstood, is the channel through which the economic life of the country is run. Their contribution will not be fully appreciated until the time comes when they will no longer be called upon to operate. Through the medium of Allied Military Government officers, in the forward areas the Allied Commission have to produce some order out of chaos. Their task is to take over a town or a district which has been recently liberated, to get public services going, to cope with innumerable refugees, to sort out and disarm any "patriots" who may come into the Allied lines, to decide which local authorities can or cannot be trusted, and, above all, to provide

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    food for the civilians. These things have to be done quickly, and "improvisation" is often their motto. They are the first Allied administrative officers with whom Italians have came into contact since the burden of Fascism, brought about by their own folly, has been lifted. By the standard of that administration, Italians will in retrospect judge British and American democracy.
    The two headaches of the administration are lack of food and transport. These two are complementary. As the Germans have been driven towards the North, the intensity of their scorched-earth policy has increased. Transport is urgently needed to bring food from the less spoiled areas to the more devastated areas. But the full result of the German scorched-earth policy will not be known until the whole of the industrial North is liberated and we see to what extent the factories and the plants in that area are devastated. In Italy, up to the end of July, less than 8 per cent. of the normal pre-war amount of wheat had been collected in many areas. Perhaps my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will tell us something about the food situation in Italy since July; whether it has improved, and whether we may expect U.N.R.R.A. to function in that country at an early date. The Italian people are working their passage home. That process is neither easy nor painless. They have only themselves to blame: and the birds have come home to roost. In addition to their country being devastated, the civilian population have suffered many atrocities at the hands of the German troops. What I have seen with my own eyes in Italy gives me little encouragement to suppose that it will be possible to draw a nice dividing line between the bad Nazis and the good Germans. I am convinced that the element of cruelty which, I suppose, is latent in some degree in all the human race is much closer to the surface in Germans, of all classes, than in any other people.
    In Italy Fascism has been removed, and a vacuum has been created. We may as well face facts, and admit that it is somewhat difficult to fill the vacuum that has been so created. During the last 20 years almost everybody in Italy of any ambition or ability gave either lip-
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    service or genuine adherence to Fascism, in order to acquire or to keep a job. We have knocked Italy out of the war, and liberated more than half the country. It is the duty of the Allies to encourage the Italians to cultivate, to a greater extent than before, a sense of individual responsibility and a capacity for thinking for themselves. But a balanced outlook and an empty stomach do not go hand in hand. Still less do an empty stomach and an unbalanced outlook produced by it bring about a stable Government. I hope that my right hon. Friend will bear that in mind when the whole of the densely populated North of Italy is liberated, and that great industrial area is free from German control. Sooner rather than later we must tell the Italians something about our own way of life. They are completely ignorant not only about the tremendous contribution that this country and the Empire have made in the war, but also of the great measures of social progress which have been passed by this House during the war. Let us tell them quickly about these matters. Let us send them films of London during the blitz, and let us have the recent White Paper about our war effort translated into Italian and put into every Italian newspaper. Let us try to infuse into that unhappy country something of our spirit of freedom and unity which they themselves in the past have so signally lacked, but which have been to us at once a source of pride and strength.
    2.9 p.m.
    Mr. Woodburn: In the Debate on the Address the House usually tries to concentrate on important issues which face the country. I do not propose, therefore, to follow the hon. and gallant Member for Windsor (Major Mott-Radclyffe) in the discussion which he has opened up, but rather to concentrate on one of these great questions. If they were to be placed in the order of their immediate urgency I think housing would be first of all; secondly, the provision of jobs and the rehabilitation of industry, so that people can earn their livelihood. But behind these immediate issues, in the heart of every soldier and of every person in this country is the desire that this shall be the last war, and that out of this war shall arise some machinery to prevent the recurrence of war and further disputes.

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    I would like to make one or two observations on this question of international peace. So far as we have a positive aim in fighting this war it is to preserve democracy. Democracy gives people the right to settle which Government they shall have, and to decide their legislation by vote, rather than by force of arms. On the Continent to-day we see signs that, arising out of the war, there are temptations to jump claims in the formation of Governments and to utilise arms, rather than intelligent, reasoned discussion and votes. We can sympathise to some extent with these underground movements, that have been fighting and risking their lives, in order to maintain some of their national rights. We can sympathise with their impatience when they have to give way to Governments which come back and which they consider, have not been in the forefront of their underground battles. But so long as people are to be given the opportunity of selecting a Government by reason and discussion, there can be no justification for attempting to seize government by force of arms.
    Our party have always taken the view that it is a step forward in civilisation to leave force for reason; and we still adhere to that, and deprecate anything which may disturb peace in these countries when we have liberated them from the enemy. Our Forces with those of the Americans and other nations have set Belgium and France free. Even now our men are risking their lives to preserve that freedom, and no one, however sympathetic he is to the impulses of youth, can justify the starting-up of a private war on the lines of communication of our troops, and so endangering the lives of the men who have restored liberty to those countries. Whatever disputes they may have internally we ought to ask them to restrain themselves from endangering the liberating armies, and to settle their disputes by some other means. On the other hand, there is some suspicion that in these countries there are men who have gorged themselves to the full by collaboration with the enemy who are still flourishing. That must be a terrible aggravation for people who have been fighting in the underground battle, and something should be done to bring them to justice. But these are incidents which are small in relation to the great human desire for settled peace among the nations of the world.
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    The problem of preserving peace depends, I think, almost entirely on whether the great Powers stand together in preserving the peace among themselves. If these great Powers can hold together, undoubtedly, by diplomatic pressure, by economic pressure, by blockade and boycott, and finally, if necessary, by armed enforcement of the law, they can preserve peace internationally. But permanent peace is unlikely if it depends on haphazard association and discussions. It must rest on some permanent system; otherwise it will break down. When we look for a permanent system we are faced with the necessity of establishing international law to eliminate the causes of war.
    The great cause of all wars is a struggle for power. Power takes a material form in the control of economic resources, of markets and raw materials, territory and populations. Mussolini, Hitler and then Japan, made no bones at all about the purposes of their wars, which were to get control of more territory, enlarge their economic power and dominate the peoples of the world. So far back as 1713, and perhaps far earlier, endeavours were made to solve this problem. The Abbé de St. Pierre, in 1713, formulated a way to avoid wars by "mutual security against foreign and civil war, and mutual guarantee of respective possessions and of treaties of peace," the "respective possessions" being a very important factor. Therefore, if we are to eliminate the causes of war, it has been a consistent conclusion of all consideration that there must be some organisation which will eliminate the necessity to use force in settling disputes.
    The last great attempt was the League of Nations. I have heard a great many criticisms of the League of Nations, but, in my own view, the League of Nations never really failed, so far as its machinery was concerned. The nations failed to use it. That is true, and, no matter how beautiful a machine you create, if the nations do not use it, it makes no difference at all. It reminds me of the story of the discussion between Americans, one of whom was accused of having no conscience. He said: "I can assure you my conscience is better than yours, for I have never used it." It all depends on whether you use machinery whether it is effective, and the

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    failure of the League of Nations was, in my view, the failure of the countries between the wars to make use of that machinery which could have performed great services in the prevention of war. The Prime Minister himself has said that the League of Nations machinery could easily have been used to prevent this war, and, looking back on the attempts that were made, I think we can all agree that, at the time of the Abyssinian campaign, there was a very narrow margin between complete and permanent success for the League of Nations and failure. When we introduced economic sanctions at the time of the Abyssinian campaign success just hung in the balance, but, unfortunately, it toppled backward instead of forward. I think that, if we had succeeded at that time, this and other wars would have been eliminated, and we should have secured a permanent new instrument for controlling aggressor nations without the use of armed force.
    Mr. Culverwell: What does my hon. Friend mean by "economic sanctions"?
    Mr. Woodburn: I am convinced that, if France and this country had stood together, and America had been with us, in economic sanctions, Mussolini might have climbed down. As a matter of fact, he nearly did, but, instead of that, there were people ready to blackleg, even on morality, and nations and organisations were actually supplying Mussolini with the very weapons he was using against Abyssinia. I do not think we should be disheartened because of that failure, because law in our own country was built up only after long centuries of trial and error. It took many years before we reached the stage when people naturally observed the law. The police are at most a last resource. Here, I think, we have the secret for peace.
    Peace can never be quite assured if it depends solely on its enforcement by an international police force. The first essential is that people and nations must accept and be willing to observe the law. If that is to be done, we must make laws which are generally acceptable. It is easier to enforce a law which is generally just. In this matter, I would commend the Dumbarton Oaks conversations on world organisation, which I think are a step forward based on the experience and
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    failures of the League of Nations and which can take us very far towards organisation for peace. But, if I may say so to our American friends, there can never be peace in the world if any country or group of people are going to declare economic war on the rest. When I read some organs of the American Press, which, I am very glad to say, do not seem wholly to represent the United States, it does alarm me to see how intent they are on preparations for commercial and economic rivalry and struggles for markets throughout the world. If that is going to be the approach, the peace organisation will not have a very sure foundation, and I would suggest that, in furtherance of the Dumbarton Oaks proposals, the nations should get down to a firmer and more specific basis of economic understanding.
    There are some moral principles that ought, in my view, to be observed. People ought to have a right to the nationality which they want. Poles should be allowed to be Poles, Germans should be allowed to be Germans, and Russians should be allowed to be Russians, just as we want to be British, and the settlement of the war should not force populations into other nationalities than those which they Want to have. That raises a very difficult problem from the point of view of frontiers, because frontiers economically do not always coincide with frontiers racially. There are countries where a racial frontier raises economic problems and an economic frontier raises racial problems.
    I would suggest a method to eliminate this. Would it not be possible to put certain aspects of administration such as education, culture, literature and the more cultural side of people's lives into a racial parliament, and to leave to the political government the administration of matters within the economic frontiers? I see no reason why, in the worlds of literature, music or the arts, the races should not each have their cultural parliaments, so to speak, quite apart from the economic problem which does not necessarily separate race from race. People could use their common language and books and not have this confused with political difficulties. That suggestion might be examined as one way out of the problem of minorities in Europe, which is a very big problem.

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    If we pass to the economic basis of peace I suggest that, further to the Dumbarton Oaks proposals, there should be more specific agreement on certain points. Firstly, we require an international law which deals with territorial and property rights—on what basis is territory to be transferred from one nation to another, and on what basis is property to be transferred. Without agreement on a legal method, sooner or later, people will take the law into their own hands. Secondly, I think there must be economic control and regulation of the production and distribution of vital products—food, coal, wool, petrol, rubber, cotton, tin and several others. These are very important, not only in regard to assuring fair play to the nations of the world, but also because, if we are going to use economic sanctions, there should be some organisation in control of these products.
    Thirdly, there should be principles upon which backward peoples should be helped to develop. It is an extremely difficult matter, in a world where people are struggling for markets, to distinguish between economic penetration and economic aid to another country. I do not think the world can continue to be divided into some nations who receive and some who give all the time. Backward peoples have to be organised to help themselves, and, therefore, there must be some international principles, upon which they can be given aid. Fourthly, there must be some world agreement on international labour conditions. If there is to be conflict between cheap labour and high standards of living, there are bound to be differences arising among the nations. Our country has built up a relatively high standard of life, and I think all will agree that our purpose should not be to depress our standards to the lowest, but rather to try and help other countries to raise theirs to ours.
    Fifthly, there must be principles for the payment of goods and exchange. If we are going to exchange goods, there must be an arrangement how these are to be paid for. Here again, if I may say so to our American friends, they appear to me to be in an impossible situation in thinking that they can sell to every country in the world and yet buy nothing from the rest of the world. That could only work for a very short time. One of the defects of the Bretton Woods Agreement is that it provides only for gold as
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    the ultimate form of payment. I think this should be altered to provide that goods of the value of gold will be accepted by the creditor nations. There will not be sufficient gold in the world to settle all the debts, and a creditor nation should be bound to accept goods to the value of gold, and we shall be able and willing to pay our debts in a form most suitable to international arrangements.
    We shall need also arrangements in regard to loans. I do not know if there are any real figures available, but, so far as I can gather, we have exported something like £10,000,000,000 to countries abroad on loan. Out of that, nearly £5,000,000,000 it is alleged has been lost altogether. For that we have got nothing in return. That has been a bad arrangement. There are some countries which have defaulted because they could not help it, but there are some defaulting because they know there is no machinery to compel payment. There must be some moral obligation on people, if they arc borrowing wealth from any country, that they should repay. This country, in the days when it was wealthy, poured out its wealth to the other countries of the world. In times to come, it may be that we shall not be quite so wealthy, and we are entitled to call upon those whom we helped to prosperity to repay, in some form or other, the debts that are due. In the future loans should be by international arrangement as part of a world system.
    After all these things have been established and accepted, there is the necessity of discipline to enforce the law. Enforcement comes last. A great deal of misunderstanding arises because some people think law starts with force—which, in my view, is the most futile way of getting progress. Force should always be the last resource of the law and of the new United Nations Council. If we get these foundations right, economically and politically, I am confident that we shall make progress.
    I have only one or two further incidental observations to make. One of the great evils between the wars, and even before the last war, was what was known as profiteering in armament manufacture. If great armament organisations are going to be allowed to intrigue it will still be a very dangerous element in our civilisation. One of the early steps of the United Nations should be to bring the

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    manufacture of armaments under public control and not allow private profiteering and exploitation of armaments. The second point is that we have spent thousands of millions of pounds upon war and yet, between the wars, our expenditure and that of other nations on the League of Nations was of the most grudging kind. To build a united organisation of nations, we should be prepared to spend sufficient money in order to make it effective. As an insurance against war and a guarantee for peace, that will be money well spent, and I hope, therefore, in this House of Commons in time to come there will never be any meanness towards the price of peace and that we shall be willing to pay generously. I cannot believe that peace can be made effective without publicity and I hope the further discussions with regard to Dumbarton Oaks will, if possible, be conducted in public, so that the peoples of the world may be able to understand what is happening and see the progress that is being made in one organisation we so much desire.
    Since I came to the House of Commons I have been very much impressed by the sensitivity of the House to public opinion outside. I hear people talking about the House of Commons being ten years out of date and out of touch with the public, but it has astonished me to see how quickly this House reacts to public opinion, which has been one of the safeguards of democracy in our own country. The world organisation should learn from that and the people of the world should stand behind the world organisation for peace. I took some prominent part in inducing the Conservative Party in West Scotland to take its part in organising the Peace Ballot. I do not think that there has been any greater referendum in history than the Peace Ballot. The vote of the people was almost unanimously in favour of the principles of law and enforcement which lie behind world peace organisation. They were prepared to impose economic sanctions and as a last resort, if necessary, they were prepared to use an international police force. I take it, therefore, that I am stating not only the views of our own country but of the peoples of the world when I say that one of the most urgent needs with which this House of Commons, this Parliament, this country and
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    the United Nations have to deal is the establishment of a world organisation for peace and the elimination of future wars.
    2.33 p.m.
    Major F. W. Cundiff: I welcome the pronouncement in the Gracious Speech from the Throne that we, with our Allies, are pressing the enemy on his own borders, and that, from the East and from the West, Germany is being invaded. This initial occupation of Reich territory is, for the Germans, the beginning of the end, and for us it is a pre-requisite of our victory to come. I am deeply conscious of my temerity and my unworthiness in addressing this House, but I am fortified in the knowledge of the traditional kindness which this House has always shown in the past to its new, to its unknown and its untried Members. For the very short period during which I have had the honour and privilege of being a Member of this House, I have listened with attention and with a very great feeling of pride to the Debates which have taken place and to the statements which have been made. I desire to say that no man could witness our procedure here, or could have listened to what has been said, without coming to the conclusion that every Member of this House, whatever his political creed or colour, is striving for one object—the betterment of his fellow men.
    It is right that it should be so, for here gathered in Westminster is the Mother of Parliaments. It is the Assembly to which all other democratic assemblies in all parts of the world turn for guidance, for example, and for precedent. There is a story which has been translated many times. It is the story of the young Indian recruit who turned to his company commander for advice on some trivial domestic affair, and when the advice had been given the company commander asked the recruit why he had turned to him for advice in the first place and the young Sepoy, answering very simply in Hindustani, replied, Ap main bap rai—"You are my father and my mother."
    I am going to suggest that the good work and the good endeavour which we witness here in this House might possibly all be lost, if in ten, 15 or 20 years' time this country is called upon to face another war. And so I would very respectfully ask this House to consider, for a few

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    minutes, the question of a long-term policy of peace and security. This is a question of such magnitude that in the course of a few minutes it can only be considered in the form of headlines. I suggest that we might consider this question under three headings: First, what are we, in concert with our Allies, going to do with Germany after the war, and secondly, and thirdly, what is our home policy to be and what is our foreign policy to be relative to this question?
    May we consider Germany first? I have always thought that one of our weaknesses at home has been the fact that so many people here fail completely to understand the German make-up and the German mentality. A very brief psychological survey of the German population would place those people into three groups. The first group is the Prussian Junker. They are the hereditary, military aristocrats of Prussia, born into, and brought up to glorify, war, with the belief that the end justifies the means. They are disciplined, courageous and efficient but they are also fanatical, ruthless, and, under certain military conditions, they personify the quintessence of brutality. The second group is the industrial group, who think along lines very similar to the Junker but with the difference that, whereas the Junker group desires military conquest, the industrial group desires commercial conquest. Nevertheless, they have very much in common. They appreciate each other's outlook with the result that, both in peace and war, they are able to work together, and so they are complementary to each other.
    The third group, and by far the largest, is the group of ordinary German people, who have never honestly sought the right of free political expression. They have been willing to lend themselves to fight and to work in any scheme of aggression which has been put forward by their leaders. Surely, the time has come when we should learn our Prussian lesson. It is a very true saying that "the leopard does not change his spots" and Prussia, the dominating factor in Germany, has not changed hers. She is the same to-day as she was when Brandenburg was first handed over to the Hohenzollerns, and later after the creation of the first King of Prussia, followed by Frederick the Second—who made a
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    most solemn Treaty with Maria Theresa of Austria and, when it suited him, broke it. So it went on until we had the Confederation of the German States. We had the 1870 war, with Bismarck, with further acts of aggression in the taking over of Alsace and Eastern Lorraine. Germany was basically responsible for the 1914–1918 war and she is basically responsible for this war, and if we allow Germany, as we know her and as she is constituted to-day, to rise again, we shall be buying a heritage of war for the children of this generation.
    The question arises what we are to do with Germany and I will offer the following suggestions, with very great deference, for the consideration of this House. In the first place, let us realise that we are not just fighting Nazi Germany. We are fighting the whole German nation, and when the time comes, either to mete out punishment or to impose obligations of any kind, the weight of these obligations must be carried by the German people as a whole. I consider it of the utmost importance that war criminals should be punished. Germany, as a nation, is peculiarly susceptible to propaganda, and when these war criminals have been punished, it is just as important that every man and woman in Germany should know what has been done. Nazi doctrines must be completely purged. Fourthly, and I think probably this is the most difficult of all, there is the removal of Prussian influence from the rest of Germany. Without mincing any words, this means splitting Germany.
    With regard to her war potential, I would say this: Germany cannot make war without ships and without planes, and for a period of at least 25 years she should be precluded from aeroplane manufacture, and she should be precluded from shipbuilding. There should also be a partial control of her chemical and heavy metal industries, and as a further safeguard, I suggest that there should be Allied control of of the German coastal and telegraph services. We cannot prevent the German war scientist from thinking, but we can prevent him from putting his views into practical application. The question might also arise; What is to happen to Germany after the war with regard to employment if we are to wash out shipbuilding and aeroplane manufacture? I suggest that Germany should become much more of

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    an agricultural country and much less of an exporter.
    When this war is over, we shall probably try to create a new League, and I think it is right and proper that we should do so, but let us remember that it is a new instrument and untried, and it would be morally wrong to put the safety of our Commonwealth into something which is still in an experimental stage. I hope that, never again, shall we indulge in the criminal folly of unilateral disarmament. This country, of all countries in the world, should be the very last to disarm. I hope that when our Service Estimates are presented, we shall be generous to our Navy, to the Army, and to the Air Force. I hope that after this war there will be no "axing" of Navy personnel. We have commitments and obligations of honour which stretch over the Seven Seas. I am not suggesting that we can maintain an enormous number of warships in full commission, but we can keep a very large number of ships "in cold storage"—that is, with very small maintenance crews—and, should the occasion arise, they could be very quickly placed in commission.
    Of our Merchant Navy I would say that in time of war all ships are necessary, and we cannot have too many. Those of us who have been privileged to serve with the Royal Navy in anti-submarine convoy duty, or in the air, appreciate the tragedy of the slow ship in convoy, and appreciate the tragedy of the merchantman torpedoed amidships when we see how quickly she sinks. I would suggest that a small subsidy should be paid to every merchant ship built over 500 tons dead-weight, in order that she might be built with collision bows, water-tight bulk-heads, specially strengthened decks to carry gun-mountings, and with a reasonable increase in our ideas of pre-war speed. It is a bad thing to lose a ship, but it is a thousand times worse to lose the gallant men who man the ships.
    My last point is this. It has been stated by responsible people on numerous occasions throughout the war that we do not desire to gain territory because of this war. I am thinking now of Malta, beleaguered and besieged for months on end, and it seems to me that the very least we can do for that island is to guarantee that never again shall she suffer as she
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    has suffered in the past. If a new naval base and a new air base are necessary in the Eastern half of the Mediterranean, and if Tripoli and Benghazi, or any other ports, will fulfil our requirements, we should, without the slightest hesitation whatever, take them, and when I say take them I do not mean take them as mandated territory, but take them "to have and to hold," for all time. Let us make our mind up that never again shall the Mediterranean Sea be closed to this country. We owe it to Malta, we owe it to Egypt, we owe it to Aden and our few scattered people in British Somaliland and, going East, we owe it to India and Ceylon, Australia and New Zealand. I hope that we shall uphold the high tradition of British justice, that we shall give justice to our enemies, but do not let us do what we did in the last war—grant justice, and then so temper the justice with mercy, that it ceases to be justice for ourselves.
    2.54 p.m.
    Mr. Hamilton Kerr: It is my fortunate privilege to congratulate the hon. and gallant Member for Rusholme (Major Cundiff) on his admirable maiden speech. He said that this House always extends its special indulgence to untried and unknown Members; after the speech my hon. and gallant Friend has just delivered, I am quite certain he will not long remain in that category. I feel particularly that he touched the heart of the House when he said how proud he was to be a Member of this Parliament, and I feel that all of us here deeply feel that privilege, to be Members of this great institution which has grown steadily through 900 years, and whose name is as good to-day as it ever was. Therefore, I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will be vouchsafed a long period in this House of Commons. In a recent Debate on foreign affairs my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Quintin Hogg) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Stafford (Captain Thorneycroft) made a point which my right hon. Friend the Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha) again made in his opening remarks to-day. It is this: that in the period after the war, this little island of 42,000,000 can only remain a great nation, if it works actively with the British Empire. He likewise instanced in his speech that whilst this should be the first principle of our foreign

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    policy, the alliance with our two great Allies, the United States and Russia, is equally important and, in fact, it is impossible to obtain a satisfactory or lasting peace in Europe without this supposition.
    I would like very briefly to transfer my attention from Europe—which is more likely to engage our attention—to the Far East. What sort of picture shall we see in the Far East at the end of this war? I think it is more than certain that Japan will resist in the most desperate and fanatical way. We are told that when the American Marines captured the island of Saipan, not only did every Japanese soldier fight to the last man, but every Japanese civilian man committed harakiri and the women drowned themselves in the ocean. If this is true of an outpost of the Japanese Empire, how much more desperate is the Japanese resistance in its homeland likely to be. I believe, therefore, that whilst Japan will be shattered and devastated to a tremendous degree by our final conquest, our conquest of Japan will not solve the main Japanese problem, the problem of the Far East, namely, the growth of population, for Japanese population is growing at the rate of something like 1,000,000 a year.
    I believe, to transfer our attention to the other centres of the Pacific, it will certainly be necessary for British prestige that Singapore and Hong Kong should be recaptured by force of British arms. I believe, likewise, that France will maintain its claim to Indo-China, and the House of Orange to the Dutch East Indies. I believe we shall find America, having spent much blood and treasure in the recapture of all those islands throughout the Pacific—we know them as Micronesia—will be intent on holding on to those strong points. I believe we shall find China exhausted but determined on its material recuperation. I believe we shall find, China intent on the return of Manchukuo to the motherland and possibly of Formosa, but she will be more intent on internal reconstruction than on Imperialist ambition. As for Russia, she will find herself extremely strong with the elimination of Japan, and possibly interested in the Chinese Eastern railway. As regards Korea, it is possible that some joint Allied administration will eventually give way to Korean independence.
    From this brief picture it seems to me that two problems emerge for the Allied
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    nations. The first is the question of security in the Far East, and the second and more difficult problem, because of future wars possibly, is the continuous rise of population in the Far Eastern countries. Now with regard to the Far Eastern security problem, it seems to me that our British interests centre in the South in a rough quadrilateral extending from Singapore to New Guinea in the North, to Australia and New Zealand in the South. American security interests centre from the Aleutians down to Formosa and possibly the Chinese Coast, the Philippines, the Pacific Islands, and to Pearl Harbour. These two spheres of security are vital to each other, for we know it was the capture of Indo-China by the Japanese which opened the way to Singapore, and it was the temporary disablement of the United States Fleet at Pearl Harbour, which gave Japan her mastery of the Pacific, and allowed her to sweep forward in a series of unchecked invasions. Therefore, we, and the United States, are vitally dependent on each other in the Pacific. So is China dependent upon us and the United States. Obviously, were Japan to rise again, China, with its vast resources of raw materials and man-power, would become an easy victim for Japanese aggression. Nor can Russia feel secure so long as Japan is a menace.
    The point I am trying to make is that, just as in Europe it is essential for an effective security scheme to have the three great Powers working together, so it is equally true, in the Far East, that China, Russia, the United States and the British Empire should have a working partnership. With regard to this difficult question of population, it seems to me that we should look at the picture of the Far East: Japan's population rising by 1,000,000 a year, China's by an untold figure, in spite of war, and India's by 60,000,000 in 12 years. We are going to be faced with a dangerous situation unless we take some steps. It seems that the only parts of the Far East which are fairly inhabitable and suitable for Eastern settlement are those areas round Borneo, Indo-China and the Indian islands, and I think we may be forced to the decision that in that area we should have something like the Caribbean Commission, which studies the whole question of the Caribbean as a whole and can deal as a

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    whole with that problem. Perhaps, therefore, we ought to create in that area something—to borrow a Japanese phrase—of a co-prosperity sphere, and try to settle the problems of the populations in the Far East.
    One other sector of the world, the Middle East, will remain as important to us after the war as it has ever been, not only because the Suez Canal runs through the Middle East zone but because of the future airways of the world, from East to West, and I think we can realise how important this sector is to us if we picture the disaster which would have befallen us had Rommel won the Battle of Alamein. Nothing could then have prevented the capture of the oilfields, and within possibly a few months we should have seen German forces joining up with Japanese forces in the plains of the Ganges. The Middle East is vital to us—it is the roundabout, so to speak, of Empire routes leading South, West and East. I am also convinced that this area is vital to us on account of oil. Since our battle fleet depends exclusively on supplies of oil we cannot afford to lose all those very valuable sources of supply in the Middle East.
    The United States has, likewise, obtained very important oil concessions in Saudi Arabia. The United States is therefore equally interested in the Middle East. What about the other great Power, Russia? I believe it is understood that Great Britain and Soviet Russia have undertaken to evacuate Persia within six months of the cessation of hostilities, and I believe that Russia hopes to see a belt of demilitarised nations running from the Baltic—Germany, Hungary, Rumania, and Bulgaria—past a friendly Turkey. Therefore it is in the interests of Russia, as well as ourselves and the United States, that no untoward development should take place in the Middle East.
    There is the difficult Palestine situation, and although Palestine is our particular Mandate, I should like to see a joint agreement on Palestine between this country and the United States of America. I am well aware that both parties in the United States have put in their election programmes what amounts to a pro-Jewish policy. At the same time, let us not forget that the United States has a
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    vital interest in the Mohammedan world with its big oil concessions, and so have we. We can only reach a lasting agreement if we can get some agreed policy on this vexed question of Palestine.
    In conclusion, I would like to say that I believe this country has a tremendous period ahead. As we look back on the Battle of Britain I think we all realise that it was one of the decisive battles of the war. It is an interesting fact in history that big victories have often heralded the greatest periods of national achievement. The defeat of Carthage preceded the great period of Rome. In our great history we find that the defeat of the Armada was the period not only of our greatest literature but also of expansion overseas. Trafalgar, by making possible the victory of Waterloo, not only established our own supremacy in the 19th century, but led to the development of democracy, not only in Westminster but in Washington as well; and we must ask ourselves whether the Battle of Britain may not herald, perhaps, one of the greatest periods in our history.
    If that is so, and if the opportunity is before us, I believe it would be a tragedy if this island continued to remain comparatively unknown to the peoples of the world. We are rightly told that it is a prime feature of our foreign policy that our Empire should be united. Do we realise that in our Empire there are many non-English-speaking peoples, Indians, Chinese and Malays, who may be interested to know about our institutions, about how Parliament works, or about our system of justice? We are told of the vital importance of our alliance with the United States and Russia. The fact is that many a Russian and many an American knows next to nothing about this country. We are told, again, that it is vitally important that we should work in harmony with the nations of Western Europe, but to many Frenchmen, Belgians, Dutchmen, or Scandinavians, this island is the unknown island. We should really let its virtues be known. We should make known our institutions, our social services, the discoveries of our laboratories, the best thoughts of our writers and thinkers, and I would say, also—although many hon. Members of this House dislike the Ministry of Information—that I think it would be a tragedy if the end of hostilities saw a complete disbanding of the machinery

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    created in this war for telling the world about ourselves. I think it is important that this machinery should not be immediately disbanded and that valuable institutions, like the British Library of Information, should continue for an interim period.
    In the meantime, I should like to see the Government thinking about plans for the future so that this country, if it be true that we can look forward to one of the greatest periods in our national history, will be given a position of leadership. Let us remember that Europe, overrun for four years, is looking to this country for leadership, and I believe we shall lose some of the great opportunities tins war and our unique victory in the Battle of Britain have given us if we throw away the opportunity of telling the world about ourselves.
    3.9 p.m.
    Mr. Chater: I believe it is not unusual, in discussing the contents of the Gracious Speech from the Throne, to call attention not only to the Speech itself, but to what it does not contain, and my purpose in rising this afternoon is to discuss the latter aspect of it. It is somewhat astounding to me that the White Paper issued by the Government, together with the commentary upon that White Paper, in connection with the proposals which arose out of the conversations between the four great nations for the prevention of future wars, has attracted no great measure of publicity in the Press, nor has it, up to the present, received any considerable attention in this House. Yet this document is perhaps the most vital of any of the White Papers which the Government have issued. I know that at the moment public attention, and especially the attention of Members on this side of the House, is intently focused on social security and social insurance problems, but if some machinery of an effective nature which will prevent another world war is not brought into existence we may find considerable difficulty in supporting in another 10 years, say, the social security measures which we hope will, before long, be brought into operation.
    The document concerned with conversations at Dumbarton Oaks puts forward, for the first time, proposals of an exceedingly practical character. The inherent defects and weaknesses which character-
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    ised the government of the League of Nations have been avoided, and a proposal has been put forward that there should be established a Council of Security which would have the right to take immediate action for the prevention of aggression. This is supplemented by the proposition that there should be a permanent military staff which should have at their disposal forces adequate to prevent aggression. One feature is the point that although there has to be a General Assembly it would not be necessary to convoke that Assembly, and wait until the different nations had arrived at a unanimous decision, before something could be done. On the contrary, the Security Council would be able to take whatever measures they considered necessary to prevent or punish aggression. I acknowledge that the proposals in this White Paper are tentative, and that none of the four Governments concerned in the conversations is definitely committed to any one of them. Nevertheless, it is a great step forward that four powerful nations such at Great Britain, the United States, Russia and China should have agreed among themselves to issue such a White Paper. If these proposals are to mature it seems likely that a great deal of criticism will centre on the enormous power that is to be placed in the hands of the Security Council. But I accept the giving of that power as a logical necessity if we are to have effective means of preventing world aggression.
    Let us remember that these four nations will have the power to prevent another world war, inasmuch as they will have to bear the great burden of preventing or punishing aggression. If it should be found impossible to obtain agreement among, the members of the United Nations—and it has been shown during the existence of the League of Nations that a small and comparatively obscure nation could put sand into the machine—then these four Powers could constitute the nucleus of an instrument which would be strong enough to prevent or punish aggression. There is no reason why other nations should not congregate around that nucleus. Nothing is agitating the minds of the people of this country more intensely than their desire that there should never be a repetition of this war. People are deeply concerned about social security and the economic conditions to be provided for our fighting men when the war

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    is over, but, above all, they are deeply and vitally concerned in their innermost beings that there shall be established by this Government, or any other Government, such measures as will guarantee to them the prevention of another world war. I sincerely hope that the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary and all those who stand in the forefront of British political life to-day will draw the attention of our people to the Dumbarton Oaks proposals. If this Government can shape those proposals into a practical machine for the prevention of war then they will have done something which will evoke a greater measure of gratitude from the people of this country than they could evoke by performing any other act.
    3.20 p.m.
    Sir Ronald Ross: The opportunities for raising matters connected with the reserved services in Northern Ireland are very few, and I owe my constituents the duty of expressing their views so that the Ministers who are concerned—and there are various Ministers concerned with what I shall have to say—may be able to give some attention to the arguments that I shall bring forward. It is to the credit of Ulster that just before the war no vote was given against the principle of National Service by any of the Members from the North of Ireland. That cannot be said of either England, Scotland or Wales at that time. But, although we were unanimous on the necessity of this service being applied to our constituencies, we were voted down by the combined forces of everyone else in the House, although I committed the political indiscretion not only of voting but of telling against my own side, and, the more I have seen, the more certain I am that I was right. But the situation in that part of the United Kingdom which, through no fault of its own, has got voluntary service should have more attention paid to it. It is quite different from the position where the National Service Acts apply.
    Many cruel cases have come within my knowledge recently which arose in the following way. In some small families the young people wished to go and serve their country as volunteers. Possibly it was a whole family of young people. The old man, who may have retired or may be on the verge of retiring, said, "Go and
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    fight and I will keep the show going until you get back." He had no idea, and neither did we, that the war was going on for six years. In many tragic cases the old people who gallantly shouldered this burden have died or are broken down in health. Then I am told that no distinction can be made between Northern Ireland and the rest of the country where the National Service Acts apply. None of the young people can be sent back. The competing firm next door, which is not patriotic—I am afraid we have a good many people who are in favour of neutrality scattered about the country—did not send anyone to the war. All their young people can go on serving in the shop or running the firm. They secure the business of the place from which the young people have gone to the front and the old man has perhaps lost his life in trying to keep the business going. I appeal to the Service Ministers to keep this kind of situation in mind and not ruin the business of those who have been prepared to make any sacrifice in their power, to the profit of those who have not done so.
    There is another and more important aspect which I should like to bring to the knowledge of the House. If there is one point on which we in Ulster are all agreed, which is the key note of all our policy, it is that we want better and closer relations with our brothers in England, Scotland and Wales, and, if there is one thing that has been done more effectively than another during the war, it is to blockade Ulster people from contact with their brothers in England, Scotland and Wales. We have been cast into the outer Stygian darkness with the neutrals across the border, because nothing as regards hindrance of communication with this island is applied to them without its also being applied to us. Practically all in the North of Ireland have been in violent disagreement with the policy which has made the Channel the boundary between the two islands. We say the boundary should have been between the United Kingdom and the neutral territory. There was no difficulty whatever in going to Antrim Head and seeing the great convoys setting out across the Atlantic, taking the next train to Dublin and informing a friend of the German Consul, who would doubtless know the best way to avail himself of the information.

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    We have always said that was wrong, but we have made no continuous complaint. Now the irritation is growing, very naturally, because although alleviations are coming to other forms of security control practically nothing has been done as regards Northern Ireland. We are not in 1940, 1941 or 1942, D Day is long past, restrictions on diplomatic bags have gone, the seaside lodging house keeper is brightening up at the thought of a good season next year, mines and obstructions are being removed, but we are still under practically the same restrictions as we have been for the last five years. The tourist trade in Northern Ireland, which was very considerable, has been completely and utterly ruined. That perhaps had to be. But it seems that a lot of restrictions in the nominal interest of security are still kept on because no one seems to think about taking them off. Surely the time has come when we may be allowed some of those privileges of which we have been deprived for the last five years. Charlotte Corday complained of the crimes committed in the name of liberty. I complain of the crimes committed in the name of security, because they are manifest and manifold, and they are more strictly applied to the respectable people in the North of Ireland than to almost anyone else. There are hundreds of people who have not been allowed to visit their old homes for five years and thousands who cannot meet friends and relations, because they can only get permits for very near relations in England.
    Violent traffic control has been applied to us, though no attempt was made to control the traffic of evacuees from London. They travelled as free as the air, paying scant attention to pathetic appeals by Ministers. Although in other countries such traffic has been controlled, it has never been controlled in this country, but we have been controlled and not allowed to go back and forth on grounds of security. Hordes of Irish labourers came back and forth, and some of them chalked up swastikas on the houses that they built. The entire cat was let out of the bag owing to the British Government being embarrassed by the presence of several thousands of citizens from Gibraltar, whom they did not quite know what to do with. Though they would not allow Ulster people to go to their homes, they shipped over thousands of Gibraltarians.
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    I do not make any comment on the citizens of Gibraltar, beyond saying that I do not know that they have ever had a reputation for discretion above the normal standard. They were brought from the heart of London and elsewhere, and those who were in my constituency certainly did not pay very much respect to the border of Eire, for they went over it whenever they felt inclined, and were rather difficult to stop. That shows that the security end was not so very pressing, but it was kept on us because, I suppose, we did not complain enough.
    The censorship still goes on. I cannot send a parcel to my home in Ireland unless I get a permit, but the process of getting a permit is so laborious that it takes most of a week to get it, and I might not get it in the end. Those deadly documents, parish magazines, are absolutely forbidden. If you attempted to send one to Northern Ireland, it would be at once returned. You cannot send photographs, and there is no attempt at discrimination. I have known an effort, in very doubtful taste, to send a photograph of a baby in a bath, but it was turned down on security grounds as it might give valuable information to the Germans, and it was returned to the sender. On grounds of delicacy, there may have been some argument for returning it, but it was returned on grounds of security. The utter futility of censoring letters from the North of Ireland to Great Britain is, I should have thought, apparent to the most infantile mind. There is to my mind good reason for not relaxing the security arrangements the other way. How any argument can be put up by any person, who is capable in the eyes of the law of making a will which will stand, that there is any purpose in spending £11,000 of Government money in employing people to censor the mail that goes from Belfast to London, I cannot understand.
    The people who are naturally wishing to send their relations presents at Christmas from Great Britain are not allowed to do so. I hear that the Minister of Food has hit on a brilliant counter-blast conception. He says that people who rear turkeys in Northern Ireland are not allowed to send them to their friends in this country. That seems to me to be an imposition on what is normally assumed to be the right of individuals to do what they want with their own property. I

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    have had something to do with raising turkeys, and I know it is a hard and watchful job, and people who rear them should be allowed to do what they like with them. This question of the censorship is a daily irritation. It slows up the post, and letters which used to come in 24 hours now take four, five or more days. I had one letter from constituents which had been delayed 20 days, because one of the censors sat on it and forgot all about it. It was from a number of infuriated fishermen who were writing about an urgent matter connected with the sale of fish. The normal delay is three or four days.
    The main difficulty may well be the lack of shipping. The service of cross-Channel packets has been cut to the bone. I cannot obviously deal with the matter in terms of individual ships, because that would not be a proper thing to do in war time, but by the modesty of my demands, it will be apparent how much has been cut. War transport probably doubles the normal amount of transport that would wish to cross from Northern Ireland to Great Britain. All I would ask—indeed, I would demand it, to use a phrase which is becoming more familiar on the Benches opposite—that we should be allowed to have 50 per cent. of the tonnage in cross-Channel traffic that was employed before the war. That is not unreasonable because it means that per passenger we would have only one quarter of the facilities we had then. The Minister of War Transport is sympathetic, but there is no prospect, as far as I know, of our reaching even this modest standard. I would not wish any Members to undergo the appalling conditions of some of these crossings which are experienced, even with the restricted amount of travel which is allowed by the Home Secretary. It is a shocking state of affairs at the present time, and for Northern Ireland, which has a population equal to that of New Zealand, to have its transport cut down in this way is rather an outrage.
    We have borne our share in the war. We would not require to have any rationing, if it were not that our food is going to the constituents of hon. Members in Great Britain. In eggs alone, we are supplying as many as will provide London with its egg ration every year.
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    Again, as regards air attacks, Belfast has had more killed than nearly any provincial town in England. I think that it has had more than Southampton. We have borne our share of the war, and we demand that we should be treated reasonably. We demand the rights that are common to every other person in the United Kingdom, of reasonably free travel through the United Kingdom and an end to censorship, unless it is justified by the facts. Whenever any fresh restriction is put on Ulster, there is always an allusion to our well-known patriotism. We are patriotic and we are proud of it, but the next time an allusion is made to our patriotism, I hope then it will be in response to what we have tried to do. I hope we shall have equal rights in these matters, and be let off some of the irksome and irritating restrictions from which we have suffered for the last five years.
    3.38 p.m.
    Mr. Gallacher: The Prime Minister yesterday made an intervention, in which he drew attention to the fact that we still have a great task lying before us of winning and finishing the war. That is something we cannot possibly ignore. All we hope to do is based upon the necessity of bringing the war to an end at the speediest possible moment. The people of the country recognise that need. The men in the field recognise it. Every effort that can be made at the front and in the factories should be now directed towards the earliest possible moment of victory. That is what the people of the country want. When, however, we discuss this question of carrying through and finishing the war we often find it made a pretext for holding off the speedy realisation of essential legislation. It is becoming more and more apparent, that the necessity of winning the war is being made an excuse on the part of reaction, for holding up various features of legislation that are necessary for this country—necessary not only in the sense that the people require their conditions, in different respects, ameliorated, but necessary as one of the most important factors in bringing the war to an early and victorious conclusion. That is something which is very often neglected, particularly by reactionary Members of the Tory Party. They will talk about winning the war, but they

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    never realise that the remedying of grievances by progressive legislation has a terrific inspiring effect on the soldiers at the front and the working men and women in the factories.
    Mr. Stourton: Has the hon. Member read the King's Speech? It contains plenty of references to progressive legislation.
    Mr. Gallacher: I will come to that in a moment. What I want to have understood is that we must not discuss progressive legislation as something that can be conveniently brought forward, if the winning of the war permits it. It is one of the essential factors in the winning of the war, and an early victory. The people of this country are deeply concerned about an early victory. No Tory reactionary should be allowed to do anything that hampers, in any way, the successful carrying through of the war to an early conclusion. To stand in the way of progressive legislation, shows that you are not concerned with the future of the people.
    What is the effect among the people? I have had many letters from soldiers—I handed some of them to the editorial board of the "Daily Worker" last night—expressing disgust at what is going on, and the opinion that there will be little hope for them when they come back, if things go on as they are now going. There is, certainly, in the King's Speech a mention of legislation but is there anything which can, in any way, inspire the people of this country or the soldiers? It says: Those things will he done "as opportunity serves." Does the King's Speech show any recognition that those things should be done and are essential to the carrying through of this terrible struggle? No, it does not. The hon. Member spoke of progressive legislation; did we not have an exhibition on the Town and Country Planning Bill? Why was the Prime Minister forced to come to this House on that Bill? Because of pressure from the Tories. It was not the Labour benchers, or the poor or small people outside, of whom there was so much talk, who forced him to come here. Everybody knows that it was Tory pressure.
    Yesterday, the Prime Minister spoke. Everybody is prepared to pay tribute to him. He took upon himself the national
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    leadership at a critical period for the country and he inspired the people and the soldiers of this country to carry through the war. Never does anyone miss an opportunity of paying tribute to that. All right; hon. Members heard the Prime Minister yesterday. I ask the hon. Member who just made the intervention, and any other hon. Member, whether the Prime Minister spoke yesterday as the national leader who inspires the people of this country, or as the Leader of the Tory Party. When he spoke yesterday, did he inspire anybody? Listen to the workers outside talking, last night or this morning. They got a feeling of depression—that progressive legislation was not to be treated seriously. That was the feeling created. There is not a Tory old or young who can deny that the national leader who inspired the people at the time of crisis, yesterday depressed the people of this country, when he spoke as Leader of the Tory Party.
    One of the biggest matters, that should be rushed with the greatest possible speed, is the solving of the housing question of this country. What an effect that would have on the soldiers and the workers. Thousands of soldiers are fighting who have no homes to come back to, yet the King's Speech says: "As opportunity serves." How is the King's Speech going to affect them? They cannot stand for that. No Tory on the other side, who has any sense of the fitness of things and is really keen about winning the war, can stand for "as opportunity serves." The housing problem must be solved, and for that we have to take over the land. That is an essential feature in winning the war. How many Tories are prepared to take over the land?
    Mr. Stourton: Would the hon. Member take it over without compensation?
    Mr. Gallacher: I want to take over the land so that houses can be built. The question of compensation can easily be a subject for discussion. The important thing is to take over the land, so that houses can be built. That is all I am concerned about—getting the land. I would not allow anything to stand in the way of taking the land to build houses, neither the Tory reactionaries nor any talk about compensation. If we got the Government coming forward and saying: "We are going to take the land of this country and use it in the interest of the

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    people to get houses built immediately," what an effect it would have on the Army.
    Major Vyvyan Adams: How would the hon. Member get the labour and materials to build those houses?
    Mr. Gallacher: We can get the labour for building houses, as we got the labour for supplying the soldiers with munitions. It is the spirit that matters. We have the labour; but to make a start, let us take over the land and take over the materials. Do not let us put "labour" in the way of that all-important principle. If we want to win the war at the earliest moment, we should inspire the soldiers and the people of the country, and that is how to do it. The mover of the Motion for the Address spoke for the soldiers, or as representing them. Very nobly he represented the soldiers. The seconder comes from the coal face. Hon. Members listened to him, but without any real appreciation, in many cases, of what that meant—the soldier from the fighting front, right from the valleys of death, and the young lad from right deep down underground, digging there and producing the lifeblood of the industries of this country.
    Why do not the Government come forward with a clear policy on this question of the mining industry? There is continual crisis on the coal question. Why not put an end to dual control and take over the industry, the lifeblood of every other industry of this country? Let them do that. What an inspiration it would be, not only to the miners and the workers as a whole, but to the soldiers. One soldier, a sergeant, who has been fighting in Burma from the beginning, wrote to me, giving some terrible descriptions of the life and conditions there. He told me that he is watching with eager interest for the development of a single miners' union in this country as it was vital, he said, for those of them who were miners, and he added:
    "We know what we shall have to face when we come back."
    It is terrible that he should have to write in such a way as that. How can we get the best fighting out of the men if they feel that when they come back they will be the victims of a body of private capitalists out for profit, as they were before the war? Let the Government face up to
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    its own promises, or the promises of its Members. I have heard the Minister of Labour talking, time and time again, about social security. Yes, we shall have social security, they say. Why do not the Government say in the King's Speech that they are going to provide the houses, not "as opportunity serves" but as an essential part of this mighty struggle? Why do they not say that they will produce a policy of social security, and guarantee to every man, woman and child in this country—as we can guarantee to them—that the days of poverty and disease and degradation will be ended, that the war against poverty and distress will be carried through as vigorously as the war against the Nazis and the Fascists?
    The Prime Minister spoke about the time when the war against Germany will be over and the continuance of the war against Japan. Surely every Member will recognise that an essential feature of the fight against Japan, or a factor that would greatly shorten the length of the fight against Japan, would be for the Government to liberate the Indian leaders, and solve the deadlock and bring about unity between the forces of this country and the Empire and the great masses of the Indian people. I know there are many Indian volunteers, but because of the failure to end the deadlock, because of the failure to recognise the just demands of the Indian leaders and the Indian people, we have a situation which is bound to hamper and hold back the possibilities of an early victory against Japan. Let us never suggest that there is a time for winning the war, and then a time for progressive legislation. Progressive legislation is an essential factor in bringing the war to the earliest possible end. It is essential, arising out of the King's Speech and the situation that now confronts us, that the progressive forces should somehow or other, be brought together, to ensure that the legislation will be carried through; that the soldiers who are fighting and the workers who are making the tools to enable them to fight, will get a fair deal from now to the end of the war, and security when the war is over, and peace has come again.
    3.55 p.m.
    Mr. Stourton: The hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) whose fiery eloquence always reminds me

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    of a raging torrent dashing over Niagara Falls, will perhaps forgive me if I do not follow him in the numerous subjects he covered, because I have other matters to raise. At any rate I look forward to being with him in the same Division Lobby when progressive legislation, in the various Government Bills to be brought before the House in the course of this Session, is laid before us. The Prime Minister, whom I am sure every Member of this House will have observed with so much satisfaction looking hale and hearty on his 70th birthday when he came down to the House this morning, declared in his speech yesterday, that there was more than a possibility that the war might continue into next summer. Be that as it may, I will venture an opinion myself. I would express it as a possibility, though not as a probability, that the war situation may well see the General Election postponed beyond the date of present expectations. Whether we take the longer or the shorter view of the war, the time has come when we should consider the postwar planning of the world, particularly in relation to the treatment of Germany, and our own methods of seeking security. I, therefore, propose to devote the few remarks which I shall address to the House this afternoon, to that particular subject.
    When hostilities have ceased in Europe the primary object of the Allies must be to make sure that Germany will never again be in a position to challenge the Powers for world hegemony either in our time or our children's life time. Should we fail in this object, the spoils of victory will prove to be no more than Dead Sea fruit. To reach our goal we must approach this problem with great determination. At the same time, we must try to follow what I believe to be the sane middle course as opposed to a blind policy of vengeance against the Germans, on the one hand, and weak sentimentality on the other. Unfortunately, in spite of the lessons of the past and the fact that we in Europe are now in the sixth year of the war, there are still a number of influential people who cherish the illusion that, when violence has ceased, the victor has only to treat the vanquished with clemency to ensure the establishment of good relations in future. To my way of thinking there can be no doctrine more false than that. The public memory is notoriously short, and therefore I pro-
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    pose to trespass upon the patience of the House to make a rather prolonged quotation from a speech made by a German Minister in the heyday of Nazi conquest of 1940, lest we forget the awful fate that would have overtaken our people had the Germans triumphed over us. The speech was made in May, 1940, by no less a Nazi than Richard Walter Darré, Germany's Minister of Agriculture, and it was delivered in secret before a gathering of high German officials. Speaking of Germany's war aims, he said:
    "We are fighting for the highest goal, struggling for the aim entrusted to us by God, struggling to master the world for our future generations and for time eternal."
    And again:
    "It will be our duty to organise economically the territories gained, which gradually will be included in the German area. We will introduce in our new 'living space' completely new methods. All soil and industrial property of inhabitants of non-German origin will be confiscated without exception, and distributed primarily among the worthy members of the party and soldiers who were accorded honours for bravery in this war. Thus a new aristocracy of German masters (called Herrenvolk) will be created. This aristocracy will have slaves assigned to it, these slaves to be their property and to consist of landless non-German nationals. England must be destroyed as once Carthage was destroyed; the centres of this perfidious plutocracy must be turned into ruins, so that this punishment might serve as a lesson to all who will attack our nation, and particularly the nations of the Western hemisphere who should be cognisant of the fact that should they stand up against us it would be their last role. Thousands of our planes will fly over proud Albion and the thunder of bombs and fires will shake to the very foundations this accursed island, which has hindered for centuries our development."
    Those are the kind of people with whom not a few in this country feel disposed to deal softly at the end of this war. If I have not read enough to emphasise the moral I am striving to drive home, I will make one more quotation, from a letter which a British general who read Darré's speech in the Press, sent to the "Sunday Express," giving an account of a conversation he had with a Nazi agent, competent to pronounce upon high Nazi policy, who declared:
    "As soon as we beat England, we shall make an end of you English once and for all. Able bodied men and women will be exported as slaves to the Continent. The old and weakly will be exterminated. All men remaining in Britain—as slaves—will be sterilised. A million or two of the young women of the Nordic type will be segregated in a number of stud farms where, with the assistance of picked German sires, they will be

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    during a period of ten or twelve years producing nearly annually a series of Nordic infants to be brought up to be in every way as Germans. These infants will form the future population of Britain. They will be partially educated in Germany, and only those who fully satisfy Nazi requirements will be allowed to return to Britain and take up permanent residence. The rest will be sterilised and sent to join the slave gangs in Germany. Thus, in a generation or two the British will disappear."
    I have read rather prolonged extracts in order that it may be realised how narrowly we escaped seeing our civilisation perish from this earth. For averting this calamity, England and her Empire may fairly take chief credit. To our imperishable glory, for a whole year, in 1940–41, we stood alone against the worst that the barbarians could do. We make up our minds, when we think of these things, that they are never going to happen again. If they are never to recur, then the following minimum precautions against future German aggression are vitally necessary. I have boiled them down under six brief headings. First, there must be total disarmament of Germany, and the destruction of all her war equipment and war plant. Secondly, there will have to be armies of occupation within her territories for many years. We must be practical in facing this problem, and realise that men weary of such tasks. It is not therefore inopportune to suggest to the Government that they might consider the proposal of training our soldiers on German soil, as a means of providing occupation troops in the years to come. Thirdly, I believe that one of the keystones to the future European edifice will be the creation of a new Austria, under a Hapsburg monarchy. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Have we not got a monarchy here in this country?
    Mr. Driberg: Surely the hon. Member is not comparing the monarchy in this country with the Hapsburgs?
    Mr. Stourton: I do not make any comparison at all. I was going to suggest that, included with Austria, might well be the State of Bavaria, and possibly Hungary. All these countries, incidentally, are Catholic, and it might be a means of bringing some stability into that part of the world, where it has been completely lacking since the breaking-up of the old Austrian Empire after the last war.
    Mr. James Griffiths: Is the hon. Member seriously suggesting that,
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    having broken up the Hapsburg monarchy in the last war, we should put it back in this war?
    Dr. Russell Thomas: Is it not a fact that the Austro-Hungarian hegemony was one of the greatest stabilising institutions in that part of Europe for many years?
    Mr. Stourton: I agree that that was the case. With regard to the other interruption from the hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) I would suggest that there were mistakes made in the Treaty of Versailles as well as in the Treaty of Trianon, and that that was one of them. The fourth point concerns East Prussia. I would hand that over, in its entirety, to the Poles, if for no other reason than that it is the cradle of Prussian arrogance and aggression. The French frontier I would shift farther Eastward, to the Rhine, and the solution of the Ruhr question could be best made by internationalising that area. Finally, I believe that the Germans should be deprived of all armed forces, on land, the sea, and in the air; moreover, in the light of past experience, the Germans should be allowed to retain no commercial air force either.
    Having dealt with Western Europe, I now turn to the question of future security for this country. The foundation-stone of security for Britain must be strong armed forces, to be the first charge on the Exchequer. I think that no one will quarrel with that in any part of the House. I often reflect myself that human nature has changed very little in course of two thousand years, but the English, broadly speaking, are a people who seldom study history. In support of my contention, I propose to quote no less a protagonist of armaments than St. Luke, who wrote these words nearly 2,000 years ago—words which are as applicable in the present age as they were when they were written:
    "When a strong man keepeth his court, those things he possesseth are in peace; but if a stronger than he come upon him and overcome him, he will take away all his armour wherein he trusted, and will distribute his spoils."
    In addition to maintaining a strong armed force after the war, we must base our security upon close alliances with the United States and Russia, who, alone with the British Empire, can guarantee the

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    peace of the world. Further, bearing in mind the annihilation of space through modern inventions and the power of modern weapons, we have to make up our minds to seek close alliances—and the sooner the better—with all these other States, France, Greece, Poland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, the Low Countries and Scandinavia. We must never forget that "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance." In framing these alliances, there can be no limited liability as there has been in the past. Each country must be called upon to contribute to the common pool in direct proportion to its wealth and population. Therein lies the secret of success of all future agreements reached.
    To sum up, in my view, we may do more, but can do no less, if we are to have peace in our time. If then we do these things, if, also, the mettle of our people remains sound, as I believe it will, if we never allow the fact to escape us that there is a standard of life as well as a standard of living, and finally, if our liberties are restored to us as soon as practicable, and the Government bear in mind the old and highly practical principle contained in the Chinese proverb that
    "great nations should be governed as you would cook a small fish,"
    that is, with a minimum of interference, then I am prepared to face the future of this country with considerable optimism.
    4.14 p.m.
    Mr. Leslie: I have no intention whatever of following the hon. Member who has just spoken in his peroration about the future of the German Reich. We know only too well what our fate would have been had the enemy overrun this country as he did so many other countries, with its following trail of brutality and martyrdom. We have listened to two very instructive speeches, one from the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Address, and, to-day, that of the hon. and gallant Member for Rusholme (Major Cundiff), who, I believe, has served in all three of the Armed Forces, and who revealed to us what the serving man has been saying. I believe he voiced the view of this House when he declared that war criminals should not be allowed to go unpunished. The King's Speech outlines fairly good ideas, but its vagueness as to possible early legislation is a matter of very deep
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    concern to many of us. If the social insurance scheme were not put on the Statute Book before Parliament dissolves, there would be a feeling of disappointment in the country. It would be assumed that the Government had at last yielded to the reactionary views of the hon. Member for Chislehurst (Sir W. Smithers), who, by his speeches and letters to the Press, has urged that there should be delay in dealing with the national insurance scheme. Then, again, the staffs of approved societies whose livelihood is at stake will be left wondering as to their fate.
    Further, workmen's compensation is a long overdue Measure which we all hoped would soon have been placed on the Statute Book. I notice also the following in the King's Speech:
    "Measures will also be laid before you making further provision for the regulation of wages and conditions of employment."
    May I ask if this means Joint Industrial Councils, and, if so, may I say that such a step should certainly be welcomed by the House, in view of the good work done during the war by these Joint Industrial Councils in the distributive trades? I hope they will be extended so as to cover both wholesale and retail. We must seek to prevent the possibility of what happened after the last war, when disputes occurred all over the country through lack of wage-fixing machinery, while, in the Armed Forces, the men had no knowledge of the cost of living at home. When they returned to civil life and found that wages offered were insufficient to make ends meet, there were disputes all over the country. I hope that is not to happen again.
    I know that some hon. Members have shown considerable concern about the position of small traders. I hope they will be equally concerned about the small traders' employees. In the past, with the small trader, it has too often been a case of long hours and low wages, and, therefore, any Measure to improve the conditions there should be welcomed. I sincerely hope that this wages question will be dealt with without delay. Again, I notice in the King's Speech that progress will be made in providing housing accommodation. Let us hope that that progress will be speedy and that the housing of the people will have a priority over everything else. It is unfortunate, I think, that no mention is made about pensions for the

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    old people. Let us hope that the old people will not be a forgotten army, and that something tangible will be done for them before this Parliament goes out of office.
    4.20 p.m.
    Captain Duncan: As one who has served in two wars, and is therefore most anxious to avoid any further wars in my lifetime or the lifetime of our children, I regard the second sentence in the Gracious Speech from the Throne as the most important. Without peace we can do nothing, and unless we can get a satisfactory solution all measures of national insurance or anything else will fall by the way. The sentence is:
    "They now look forward with greater confidence than ever before to those final victories which will give to the peoples of the world the just peace which is our chief desire."
    The words "just peace" are absolutely the correct words in this connection. I do not want to-day, because there will be many opportunities later, to deal with the future set-up of Europe, and the war is not over yet. I do not want, as the hon. Member for North-East Bethnal Green (Mr. Chater) did, to refer to Dumbarton Oaks, but as he has done so, I would just say that no form of international peace, international arrangement or international organisation can be successful unless it is based on the good will and good faith of the nations concerned. The Dumbarton Oaks proposal suggests a Security Council of the great Powers, but the great Powers themselves have to have the will, and to continue to have the will, and, above all, the ability to enforce their will, and nothing set up in the form of an organisation can succeed unless the big Powers in the world have the will to peace and the will to enforce it.
    I want to deal with this matter in a slightly different way. Foreign affairs—and this is a trite remark—are British interests abroad. What are the British interests? I believe, broadly speaking, British interests abroad, at any rate as far as Europe is concerned, are the interests of Europe itself. There is no conflict, because we want nothing from Europe except peace, between British interests in Europe and the interests of Europe. The first want is obviously a just peace, an unassailable peace, as is also mentioned in the Gracious Speech. But that must mean that the people who
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    agree to this peace must really agree to it and that it must be, more or less at any rate, by consent, and the people for whom the peace is made must be more or less content with the settlements that are made.
    Let us take one or two countries in Europe to-day and see if contentment and consent are really covered. I know that there is to be a further Debate on Poland and I will not labour the question now, but let me mention Poland in passing. Whatever settlement is come to in Poland it must be obvious from hon. Members' conversations with Poles in this country, from letters in the Press and the general knowledge of what the Poles are feeling in the Fighting Forces and elsewhere, that unless the Poles are given a reasonably decent peace they will never be content with a peace imposed either by the Lublin Committee or by Russia. It would not, in the long run, be in the interests of Russia herself to have a peace which is imposed and which creates such discontent among the Polish people abroad and Polish people in Poland that it may well be a festering sore in that part of Europe for the future.
    Let us take Jugoslavia, which again is a case where, unless the Serbian majority accept the peace, there will be no real contentment, or peace by consent of the people. The British Government have been backing Marshal Tito, who, besides being a Communist, is a Croat, and up to now the new Prime Minister of Jugoslavia and the Royal Jugoslav Government have failed to obtain any real representative Serbian to serve in that Government. Unless we can get the Serbian element, which is the majority in the country, to serve under that Government and to lead that country towards contentment we will never get the sort of peace that I would like to see in that country.
    There is one small point which it would seem requires the consideration immediately of His Majesty's Government. I understand that Marshal Tito has refused the services of U.N.R.R.A. for the people of Jugoslavia freed from the Germans. The Civil Affairs branch of the Military Forces, I understand, are feeding the people, but the effect of the refusal of Marshal Tito to have U.N.R.R.A. to come in behind the army is that Marshal Tito will feed his own people and leave the Serbs unfed. That seems to me to be a

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    matter for His Majesty's Government, with the American Government, to put right. You cannot get peace if you are going to starve to death the majority of the people of a particular country.
    Mr. Rhys Davies: The hon. and gallant Member made a statement a moment ago that the Serbs were in a majority in Jugoslavia. Does he mean that the Serbs are the largest single nationality in Jugoslavia or are they larger than Croats, Slovenes and Macedonians combined?
    Captain Duncan: I think I am right in saying that the Serbian people are more numerous than all the other nationalities combined. If there is to be peace, there must be contentment and consent among the people for whom the peace is made. That applies equally to the big nations as to the small nations.
    Mr. Silkin: Does that apply to Germany as well?
    Captain Duncan: No, of course not. I am talking in terms of the Allies and occupied countries. The hon. Gentleman will agree with me that Germany and Japan are aggressors and must be treated in an entirely different way.
    Mr. Silkin: I was taking the test which the hon. and gallant Gentleman applies, that any peace must leave the nation involved contented, and I wondered why that does not apply to Germany too.
    Captain Duncan: I should have thought that it would have been obvious that the Germans, by their history and by their character, do not deserve to be treated like a civilised Power and I am surprised that the hon. Member, in his quest of logic, fails to recognise the difference between Germany and the rest of Europe. That is the first point, that it is to the British interest and the interest of Europe that there should be the contentment and the consent of the people.
    The second British interest is, perhaps, not quite so morally strong, and that is that there should be British concern with trade. In these days, when we have sunk all our savings in the war, it is vital that we should retain and extend our trade. In this connection I think it is a little unfortunate that His Majesty's Government should have agreed to the Armistice terms with Finland. I only mention
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    this in passing, but I understand—my right hon. Friend will correct me if I am wrong—that the Armistice terms with Finland include provisions for reparations in kind which equal 10 years of the exportable surplus of Finland before the war. If that is so, all chance of our trade with Finland after the war goes. The hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) and I are equally keen on dealing with housing in London; for that purpose, one of the finest countries to go to for high quality timber is Finland. How shall we be able to get timber from Finland if reparations equal to the total exportable surplus from Finland must go to Russia for the next 10 years? Must we buy it from Russia? Surely, during the discussions on those Armistice terms, the British Government could have said, "You can deprive Finland of her total exportable surplus for 10 years if you like, but we want our share. We must stand up for our trade rights because, in this particular instance, it affects not only our trade but the housing of our people after the war."
    Then take another country, Rumania. I understand that the Rumanians have to hand over machinery, and various other things, to Russia as part of the Armistice, but in fact the Rumanians are handing over British oil machinery to Russia. Now that should never be allowed. We have British rights there, and one of the British rights are the British and American oil firms in Rumania. That is the sort of thing which the British Government should watch to see that it does not arise.
    I want to allude not only to Russia but to America, to the Civil Aviation Conference that is going on now. I am very glad that Lord Swinton is chairman of it, because I think he is the kind of man who can stand up for British rights, and I hope he will. It would be far better, in my opinion, to come back with no agreement rather than to subscribe to an agreement as the result of force majeure owing to the unfortunate situation in which we find ourselves as a result of the war regarding aircraft. We cannot get 100 per cent. always of what we want, but British interests should be frankly stated and, with a democracy, the people should understand that they have been frankly stated. I do not believe that the Foreign Office to-day in their operations in connection with these countries, par-

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    ticularly some of the smaller countries, have been strong enough in their representations or frank enough to a democracy. After all, we have a right to speak. Our prestige in Europe was probably highest in 1940 when we stood alone. It is lower, I think, now, because of what is happening, but we have a great opportunity to lead Europe towards the unassailable and lasting peace we all want. The foreign nations trust us. When they were invaded, I think all the nations of Europe came to us; their exiled Governments came to us, they did not go elsewhere, and we have fostered and cared for them during their hard times. We have a great opportunity of leadership, and we have a right to speak as leaders.
    What have we done? Not only did we save the world in 1940, we were the first to fight before we were attacked, and that goes for Russia and America. We have in the White Paper at last disclosed to the world some of the things we have done at great sacrifice to ourselves. It is a triumph of under-statement to call this White Paper, "Statistics relating to the war effort of the United Kingdom." It should be called "The Heroic Record of a Great People"—5,500,000 people in the Services, 7,000,000 women serving in munitions, 22,000,000 men and women serving in the war altogether. We have strictly rationed ourselves, and made our diet dull, if just sufficient. We have rationed our clothing. We have to have points and coupons for almost everything we need. We have built 722 major naval vessels, 25,000 tanks, and 102,000 aircraft. We have ruined our export trade—cut it to nothing—and we have to start all over again. We have given £1,000,000,000 in reverse Lend-Lease to our Allies, and this in spite of two long periods of heavy bombing by high-explosive or fly-bombs. Physically we may be small, but I believe we shall not be considered so small if we have close and even closer contact with our Dominions.
    Materially, our resources may not be so great as other countries', but morally I believe we are the greatest nation on God's earth. We have a right to speak and to speak as equals. We have put everything into this united effort of winning the war. We have had no thought for the future. We deserve to be listened to with respect. My plea this afternoon is that the British Government
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    should recognise that we are a great nation, that we have a right to be heard as equals, and that we should not be afraid, as the greatest democratic nation in the world, which has kept democracy alive here as a landmark and as a guide to the future, to state our minds frankly and clearly to the world. I believe that if we can get what we want, it will be in the interests of Europe, and in the interests of the unassailable peace that we all desire.
    4.39 p.m.
    Mr. Rhys Davies: I have listened to most of the Debate yesterday and to-day and have been intrigued with several statements made by those who have taken part. I was rather touched by what the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for North Kensington (Captain Duncan) said when he drew a distinction in the treatment to be meted out after this war to certain of the Central European States and that, of course, we must not give to Germany the same treatment that we give to other countries because Germany is the enemy. I will come to that point later on. Some of us have placed an Amendment to the Address on the Paper, in these terms:
    "But humbly regret that there is no indication in the Gracious Speech that His Majesty's Government, in conjunction with its Allies, intend making a declaration which would encourage the emergence within Germany of a new régime composed of democratically minded persons in whom the United Nations could have faith, so that a settlement of the problems which caused the conflict in Europe might be reached on the basis of the principles set forth in the Atlantic Charter."
    Those who have been good enough to read it, will see that it contains challenges on three points. The first thing our Amendment challenges is the policy of unconditional surrender; secondly, it challenges something that will interest the hon. and gallant Member, namely, the ridiculous theory of the good and bad nations. Finally, it challenges the British Government primarily, and their Allies, for having discarded all that is worth while in the provisions of the Atlantic Charter.
    Let me say on the first point, about unconditional surrender, that I do not know my history as well as other hon. Members, but I understand that these two words have been borrowed from the vocabulary of the American Civil War. I do not think therefore that they are at all

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    applicable to a war between nations. What the use of that slogan has done, has been to stiffen the German people behind the Fuehrer and turn his followers into fanatical fighters. Here, let me make it plain once again that I am as much opposed to Fascism as any Member in this House. Some may recall that a long time ago, I protested at this Box, against some Members of the House of Commons welcoming the coming of Nazism in Europe; they regarded it as something which would provide a sanitary cordon to prevent Bolshevism travelling West. Now, however, Bolshevism is travelling West very largely because Great Britain and America are helping it by providing Russia with munitions of war. I have said before that all that Great Britain and America will be doing in this war from now onwards is to make the Continent of Europe safe for Communism. In any case, unconditional surrender is an unworkable policy. All that has happened in Southern Italy is sufficient proof for the contention I have made. I very much doubt whether the Italian people will feel very well disposed towards us and the Americans, for imposing this policy of unconditional surrender on their country. I am told that the Italian people are actually suffering from want of food, and that there is political chaos among them. Without being prejudiced at all I am not so sure that the Italians who have been liberated feel that they are any better off than they were under the bondage of Germany, and that is a terrible state of affairs.
    Our Amendment challenges too the idea of the good and bad nations, and that is where I quarrel with the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for North Kensington. Surely, he, who is very much better educated than I am, does not seriously argue that nations are eternally divided into good and bad. If he does, let me remind him of the fable written by Æsop, one of the wisest men in history, and ask him to remember that it is not so long ago since the Russian people were thought of by the majority of the people in this country as the most wicked on the face of the earth. One fine morning, however, we awoke and found that all the Russians were saints, and Stalin ever since has been a very decent fellow. What nonsense! The fable I have just mentioned runs something as follows. This wise man Æsop was walking front
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    Argos, where he lived, to the city of Corinth, close by, when he met a traveller, who said, "You live in Argos. Tell me what sort of people live there." The wise man said, "Tell me first what sort of people are living in Corinth." The traveller replied, "I am leaving the Corinthians for good, because they are a lot of rogues, scoundrels and rascals." The wise man said, "Oh, you will find exactly the same type in Argos." He walked further on and met a second traveller who posed the same question as to what sort of people lived in Argos. The wise man said to him also, "Tell me first what sort of people are living in Corinth." The second traveller said, "I have lived there for a long time and have found them decent, straightforward, honest and clean folk." Then Æsop said, "You will find just the same type in Argos."
    Later on the two travellers met one another and began to argue how it came about that such a very wise man should tell two different tales about the same people living in the same area until one said, "What he meant was that you will find your own type of human beings wherever you go." Well, I have travelled large tracts of this world, and wherever I have been I, too, have found my own type wherever I have gone. That is the history of mankind throughout the ages.
    Captain Duncan: As the hon. Member challenged me, I want to say that, having fought the Germans in two wars, I do not now trust them one inch.
    Mr. Davies: But, if the hon. and gallant Gentleman had fought against the Russians, he would be saying exactly the same thing about them. I am sorry that the hon. Member for South Salford (Mr. Stourton), who, I understand, wants to put the Hapsburgs back on their throne, is not in his place at the moment. I want to tell him and those who think like him that there are two wars going on in Europe at present, the obvious conflict between the United Nations and the Axis Powers and the less spectacular war between the common people and those who rule them. Unfortunately—and I may be biased about this—I am very much afraid that before this war ends British working-class folk will be used to keep the workers in other countries in Europe in subjection. We see what is happening in Belgium now. British military power is being employed

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    to restrain the Belgian people who want a better Belgium to emerge from this conflict. The same applies to Greece too. I have no claim to speak on this next subject except as a traveller. I have seen the people of Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Hungary and elsewhere, and I want to say, with as much emphasis as I can command, as one who has lived longer than most Members in this House, that it makes me a sad man to see the Continent of Europe in the plight that now overwhelms it. I believe that this is the darkest of all the dark ages in the history of man; and here, in this Parliament, the freest in the world, and the freest spot in this island—freer than our political parties or churches—yes, in the darkest of all ages in history, there is not a glimmer of light or hope in the struggle to the death that is now proceeding on both sides. I was taught from childhood to believe that there are characteristics in the men and women of every nation which, if appealed to, can rise above the use of force to settle international quarrels. I am appealing to that.
    Some parts of the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for North Kensington however were sensible, and I thought he would be willing to apply his philosophy of peace to all countries alike, including Germany, when the war ends. What I cannot understand is how it comes about that people use in turn exactly the same vocabulary about every country fighting against us. We hear now that the Japanese are barbarians and scoundrels, whereas in the last war of 1914–18, when they were fighting on our side, they were the gentlemen of the East, and decent little fellows at that. God forbid, but I have heard it whispered that the Red Army is travelling a little too far West to please some hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House. I would not be surprised, therefore, that before this world conflict ends to see Great Britain, America, France, Germany and Italy combine to push the Red Army back to their own country. If that should happen, the Russian people, now regarded as saints, will then be called "blackguards" and "bloody baboons," as they were termed by the Prime Minister not so very long ago. Do hon. Members realise that new generations are born every day? Do they realise, for instance, that it is quite possible that 50 per cent. of the young men
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    now fighting in Europe to-day were elementary schoolboys when the war started?
    Captain Duncan: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that we are capturing 14-year-old prisoners, and we know what they look like?
    Mr. Davies: I respect the hon. and gallant Gentleman's views; indeed, I have always respected the man who volunteers and thinks he is fighting for a principle, and I also respect likewise the man who refuses to fight at all. The person I do not respect is he who wants the other fellow to do the fighting for him. The hon. and gallant Gentleman talks of security. I want therefore to quote from "The Times," 1st December, 1855. We were then at war with Russia in the Crimea; and, as far as I understand my history, both sides lost the war, but each Government convinced their people that they had won. That, of course, is the habit of Governments. I am a little surprised that people can be easily deceived by war-time propaganda. If the Governments that are at war decided to-night to wind up this conflict on a negotiated basis, as they might do without asking Parliament—they have done similar things before—I would give our own Government just one week by propaganda to convince 80 per cent. of the British people that Hitler is a decent fellow after all; and, in Germany Goebbels would need only three days to convince 95 per cent. of the Germans that our Prime Minister has never tasted whisky or smoked a cigar. That is propaganda, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman is I am afraid as susceptible to it as anyone. For instance, our Prime Minister paid a generous tribute to Franco, the Fascist, the other day, and hon. Members opposite said "Amen." Then, who would have said 10 years ago, that our Prime Minister would be eating caviare and drinking champagne in Moscow with Stalin? I am astonished that hon. Members who have been educated in colleges and universities are so susceptible to this propaganda clap-trap. Nice smooth things used to be said about the Nazis. I once heard a right hon. Gentleman opposite say what a grand thing it was that Hitler had arisen and he hoped that, if anything untoward happened to the people of these islands, a Hitler would arise here too, [HON. MEMBERS: "Who said that?"] The Prime Minister said it. It is on record and I will give proof if hon.

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    Members want it. This is what "The Times" said on 1st December, 1855, about the Crimean war. It is the hon. and gallant Gentleman's language in paraphrase:
    "Let us have security this time so that we shall not have the same bloody work to begin over again some 10 years hence. With what hope could the English Government face Parliament and the English people if they were to give us no other return for the blood of our soldiers and for the vast amount of treasure that we have lavished on this war than a peace which will leave us to begin again when another human crop was ripe for the sickle of the Czar?"
    How comes it therefore that we once hated the Greeks, the Turks and the Boers? We have hated the Russians, too. Now we hate the Germans. The only people we really love are ourselves, and we are not certain of that always. I am attempting here to debunk all this foul propaganda that gets hold of the people.
    Major Procter: Does the hon. Member realise that what he is saying is helping Hitler?
    Mr. Davies: I represent a seat in Lancashire and I expected more intelligence from another Member from my county. Because I stand in a free Parliament to criticise the institutions of my own country, and to debunk the hypocrisy of my own Government, the hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks that I must be a friend of Hitler. If our two minds could be properly analysed it would be found that I detest Nazism more than the hon. and gallant Gentleman does.
    Major Procter: Hitler does not have a chance of speaking as the hon. Member is doing.
    Mr. Davies: It seems, therefore, that if the hon. and gallant Gentleman had the chance, he would not allow me to speak.
    Major Procter: Of course I would.
    Mr. Davies: The English historian Stubbs once wrote this about the French nation:
    "How comes it about that the English and the Germans have always been the peace-loving nations of history?"
    He answered his own question by saying:
    "Because France showed herself to-day, as she has been through the course of a thousand years, aggressive, unscrupulous and false to a degree."
    Mr. Magnay: When was that written?
    Mr. Davies: In 1860. My point is that nations do not change like that in turn, so that you hate the Russians to-day and make friends with them to-morrow, hate the Germans to-day and make friends with them later. There is no such thing as good and bad nations in the world. Mankind is not divided fundamentally into German, British, American and Italian. Mankind is divided into good, bad and indifferent everywhere. I do not profess to be a saint, but that is what Christianity teaches. Hon. Members go to church on Sundays and contribute lavishly to keep the Christian Church going, then they come here and denounce the very basis of Christianity. Then we go to war and say we are fighting for the Christian religion. I for one am not having that hypocrisy, and this is the place to say it. I am glad that this place does exist, and let me tell the hon. and gallant Member for Accrington (Major Procter) that if there was a similar place in Germany and I were a German, I would say there exactly what I am saying here. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman cannot contain himself because he would probably like to shoot me. That is the spirit that apparently animates him. As we are now proceeding to a General Election the division of opinion on these issues will emerge in due course. It is beginning to come already in this House.
    Once again, I am very glad that we have a Parliament, for one of my objections to a totalitarian regime is that you cannot in that case change the Government without bloodshed. We can change it otherwise here. Let me conclude by saying that all my teaching and all that I believe in, is against the use of force to settle international quarrels. To that end I will do my part in assisting to bring forth and establish a durable peace in the world.
    5.2 p.m.
    Major Vyvyan Adams: The business of "debunking" must not be allowed to be the monopoly of the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies). I would ask him to remember that it is dangerous to seek to prove a case by proverbs and fables, with so many of which he adorned the passionate discourse which the House has just

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    enjoyed. I prefer history to parables. I would remind the hon. Member that twice within this century, the majority of the German nation have proved themselves to be a people that loves and glorifies successful war. They have shown themselves to be the greatest and the most brutal trouble-makers in the annals of mankind. Indeed, the Germans may well deserve the language deprecated just now by the hon. Member—"the dirtiest scoundrels on the face of the earth"—language that I would describe as more remarkable for its accuracy than for its elegance.
    Foreign policy, on which hon. Members have dwelt considerably to-day, is beyond question the most vital element in our affairs. It is a truism that in order to conduct our foreign policy most effectively, we need two circumstances—first, a healthy and harmonious British Commonwealth, and, second, sane and sound political conditions in the United Kingdom. The absence of either of these factors would gravely weaken that prestige on which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Kensington (Captain Duncan) laid such correct emphasis just now.
    In the Gracious Speech reference is made to our comrades in the Forces from the British Commonwealth and Empire. I want to touch on an aspect of this matter that has not yet been mentioned in the Debate and to ask this question. How is the British Commonwealth of Nations going to emerge from this struggle? What effect on its future will flow from the experience of the young men from Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa who have fought beside us? Those who have been here will each take home to his own Dominion a record of the treatment he received in Britain. I am glad my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is here because I believe he can help in this matter. There is a certain class of men whom, I hope, the Government will take especial care to handle well. I mean the repatriated prisoners of war, because they are now physically and directly concerned in this country, who come from South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. One can say from observation that the fact of having been a prisoner of war need not leave upon a man any permanent effect. It does not so deeply scar his spirit that
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    he is for ever a changed man. But, immediately after his release, his state of mind cannot be expected to be completely normal.
    I have known of a British soldier lately returned from captivity who—it sounds trifling, but it is symbolic—refused the offer of a cigarette-lighter, because he considered that the manufacture of such an article was an unwarranted luxury, and that the energy expended upon it should have gone into munitions. I know of another case, which has a pathetic aspect, of an officer ex-prisoner of war who always took the seat in a room furthest from the fire for the same reason. Fuel, he asserted, should go into the armament factories and not into the home. He was shocked after his own experience in Germany that we had left to us any domestic comforts.
    No doubt, in time, these men will recover the balance of which their sufferings and their narrowed outlook have for the time being deprived them. We in this country can look after our own, but I want to ask the Government to consider the vital importance of the men from the Dominions. There are thousands of them in transit from Germany to their homes. They are physically sick or at best weakened by their grim and unnatural experience. For years, they rightly regarded obedience to authority as wrong. That is the right state of mind for a prisoner of war; he ought to cause all the inconvenience he can to his captors. The result is that when they reach this country, some are inclined to take leave without its being granted, or to refuse leave when it is offered to them. They are critical of the open world into which they are suddenly projected and restored. These Dominion soldiers, too sick perhaps to serve again, cannot be shipped home at once, and vet each one of them is a potential ambassador of Empire.
    This is not a trifling point. We want, I am sure, no damage to be caused by avoidable negligence to the British Commonwealth of Nations, which is at once the greatest and the most successful large-scale political experiment in history. The accommodation in which these men have to be housed, while they are waiting to be shipped home, should be adequately staffed. I do not consider, to give an illustration of what I have in mind, that the rule that Australians should look after Australians, and that South Africans

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    should exclusively tend South Africans, should be observed so slavishly that there are too few men for the job. They should have the best and most sympathetic treatment possible from humane and experienced companions; it does not matter whether they are drawn from the Dominions or from what is called the mother country. In a word, I hope that the Government will agree that nothing but the best available is good enough for these men, who have been in captivity so long after having come to assist us from the sister Dominions overseas.
    There is one other matter which I wish to raise in the course of my brief remarks. I take leave to say that it is of general interest. It may be necessary to ask for the indulgence of the Labour Party before I say it, but I think it should be said, because political honesty demands it. Yesterday the Prime Minister said in the course of his speech:
    "Our tenure now depends upon the official end of the German war."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th November, 1944; Vol. 406, c. 34.]
    I do not know precisely what "the official end" may be, but if that is the factor governing the date of the General Election, I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend. It is difficult for one to take an objective view about something which most people dislike intensely, a General Election, but anybody who is able to do so will agree that the House of Commons should be renewed as early as possible, provided that it can be done without causing undue dislocation to our war energies. But, and these are the questions I wish to ask, what is to be the form of the Election, and what is to be its political sequel?
    It seems to be almost universally assumed that we are to have an Election conducted on what are usually called party lines, and very devious and misleading those lines may be. The proper consequence of a party Election should be a party Government. There is, I submit, no other honourable and logical result. If that does not follow, you deceive the public. If you deceive the public, you weaken and tend to destroy Democracy, because it will lose faith in itself. Yet, when you ask anyone whose judgment is deserving of respect, either inside Parliament or outside, whether a party Government should introduce the social legislation, which the passage of time on the one hand, and the ravages of the war upon the other, have made
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    abundantly necessary, or should conduct the war against Japan—I would remind hon. Members that Japan is much more insensitive and just as formidable as Germany—or should frame the guarantees against future German aggression, or should proceed to place upon a permanent foundation our future relationships with Russia and the United States—to mention only three or four of the most urgent problems which will face that next Government—that individual, whom one questions because one respects his judgment, will answer, spontaneously, speedily and automatically: "Certainly not. There must quite obviously be a Coalition. And the man at the head of it, so long as we are engaged in hostilities against Japan, must certainly be the present Prime Minister."
    I submit to this House and to the Government, and in particular to the leaders of the Conservative Party and the Labour Party—because they are the main factors in deciding this matter—that it would be dishonest and ridiculous to fight a party Election, as it is called, while the party leaders nourished at the back of their minds the firm intention of reviving the same Coalition just after the General Election. I suggest that that would be as unsavoury an arrangement as a trial divorce. I think trial marriages are unsavoury, but I believe that trial divorces are even grosser. If the Labour Party, taking the initiative in this matter, which I think is now a matter of fact, insist upon a party Election, and are then returned with a majority, it should be made quite clear to them now before the Election that they will have to struggle on by themselves so long as the country—at war be it remembered against Japan—is able to endure a régime of dim leadership and undiluted Socialism. If, on the other hand, the party Election on which the Labour Party seems likely to insist—although it is not too late for it to alter its intention—results, as it well may—I am not trying to predict anything in this matter—in a big majority for the Prime Minister's party and its associates, it should be made equally clear to our hon. Friends, or the hon. Members of the Labour Party, that the Labour Party will not share in the Government which helps to ensure the final triumph of the United Nations.
    It may be said that what I say is suggesting disunity, but hon. Members will

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    agree that the motive clearly underlying what I have been saying is the prevention of disunity. All these unpleasant disunities can be avoided, if we preserve our unity, and what has been a most fruitful co-operation, through and beyond the Election. I assure hon. Members of the Labour Party that there will be plenty of local opposition up and down the country to the co-operation of the great parties, and plenty of local conditions such as will ensure real contests. At such a juncture in our history, when, for all we know, we may be little beyond half-way through the war against the two aggressor nations, Germany and Japan [Interruption]—I said "for all we know." It is probable that we are about three-quarters of the way through the war against both of them—we cannot overemphasise that there is still Japan to be defeated, and that if her defeat is not so thoroughly accomplished as the overthrow of Germany, all the efforts we are now making will be historically futile.
    Mr. Ivor Thomas: Before my hon. and gallant Friend leaves that point, may I ask whether he is proposing that the Labour Party should be confined to contesting the 160 seats which we hold at present? If not, will more be given to them and which seats would they be? Would West Leeds be one of them?
    Major Adams: I am trying to avoid any personal references to one's own private electoral interests, but I am perfectly prepared, as soon as my hon. Friend likes—perhaps he will come and be my opponent himself—to fight an Election in my constituency. I am not as fearful of the result as he thinks I may be. The question he raises will, clearly, be a matter for the local associations.
    I see no objection in the Government as it now exists going before the country as a Coalition with what used to be known as a coupon, which is not a gambler's ticket so much as a certificate of the acceptability of the particular candidate to the existing Coalition Government. It is true that, owing to the very objectionable circumstances of the 1918 Election—circumstances which did not flow from the coupon so much as the Coalition cries which were then current throughout the country, of which the worst of all was "Make Germany Pay," which would have damaged the creditor nations more
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    than the debtor nations—the word "coupon," through its associations, has fallen into disfavour. After all, I imagine that any candidate of any party has, if not an actual coupon, at least a notional coupon, given to him by the headquarters of his own party at every General Election. Why a list of candidates considered acceptable to a Coalition Government should be more immoral than a list acceptable to some political party is beyond my comprehension. The hon. Member raises a practical difficulty, but I do assure him that the difficulties and damage of the alternative of having a party Election, and immediately afterwards, if you are to be honest men, insisting upon party Government, when we are still in one of the most critical periods in our history, will greatly outweigh any difficulties the hon. Member may have mentioned by way of interruption to my speech. In any case, I hope anyone will think a long time before he is responsible for disturbing that national unity which, undeniably, for the last four years has wrought so much, and is still, I submit, for two or three years still to come, of such urgent and vital importance.
    5.21 p.m.
    Mr. Naylor: The hon. and gallant Member for West Leeds (Major Adams) has raised an interesting question with which I would like to deal, but I hope it will be understood that in no way can I speak with authority on behalf of the Members of my party, although I think my views would coincide with theirs if the issue were raised. I would like to say to him that his appeal comes rather late in the day, when the political armies are actually in battle array.
    Major Adams: That is perhaps because I have been in another Army.
    Mr. Naylor: The stage is set for the battle, and even policies have been promulgated, which in the Army would be referred to as strategy. All that has been done following Debates in the House and outside the House, concerning the policies of the two great parties of the State. I wish to say something about the Prime Minister's speech yesterday. He is always very meticulous, when he proposes a question to the House, in dealing with every aspect of the question. That is to say the Prime Minister never shirks the case

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    of the opponent in his enthusiasm for his own case. But I listened to him very carefully yesterday, and I felt that he was not following his usual custom of considering more than one side of the case. He has told us, from time to time, just what he thinks will be the duration of the war with Germany, and he has led us from spring time to early summer, and yesterday he asked us to ignore the word "early," which means, of course, that the Prime Minister is thinking not only in terms of the war with Germany, but also in terms respecting a possible General Election. The Prime Minister, once upon a time, put his pen to paper and wrote a passage which, I think, applies to the present political situation as reflected in his speech of yesterday, bearing in mind the fact that he expected that the war with Germany might end in the summer, which would be July. This is what he said regarding General Elections:
    "July for General Elections is dear to the heart of the Tory organiser"—
    he then went on to add—
    "when democracy is supposed to be under the soothing influence of summer weather and before villadom has departed on its holidays."
    That seems to fit in with what the Prime Minister said yesterday as to the probabilities of a General Election coming in a month, or thereabouts, that is dear to the heart of the Tory organiser. I suggest, especially to the hon. and gallant Member for West Leeds, that even so——
    Mr. Magnay: Would the hon. Member mind telling the House the name of the author who talked about this being "dear to the heart of the Tory organiser"?
    Mr. Naylor: Surely the hon. Member does not expect me to keep in mind chapter and verse of all the books I have read, especially at my age. But he has disclosed the fact that apparently he has not read this book. Possibly other hon. Members cannot name the book in which these words appear. It happens to be a book that ought to have been read by every Member of the Conservative Party. I will give the hon. Member chapter and verse: page 461 of the second volume of the Life of Lord Randolph Churchill, written in the Prime Minister's own hand. As hon. Members may not have read that book I would recommend them to read it. It is one of the outstanding political biographies, especially as a biography
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    that has been written by a son of his father. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am glad to hear the approval expressed on these Benches. It is evidence to me that at least Members of the Labour Party have read that book.
    When I say that the Prime Minister did not show his usual meticulous care in considering all aspects of the question when the war with Germany will end, I want to suggest there is a possibility that the war with Germany will end suddenly, and at a much earlier date than suggested by the Prime Minister. We all hope so, and it may be so. None of us can prophesy with any accuracy or expectation of being believed when the war with Germany will end, but those who say that the war cannot end until next summer have no more right to their opinion than have I or any other hon. Member to the opinion that it is quite as likely to end in January or February next. I put that before the House as a possibility.
    That being so, what is the position in regard to what was said by the hon. and gallant Member for West Leeds? The Prime Minister will inform the House that Germany has offered unconditional surrender, and a few days, or maybe weeks, afterwards the House will be called upon to consider the position in the light of the statements that have been made by the Prime Minister. What statement is the Prime Minister likely to make in the event of an announcement being made, let us say, in the early months of the year, that the war with Germany is at an end? Is he coming to this House, with His Majesty's Gracious Speech in his hand, to tell us that all these magnificent promises of social reform can no longer be considered, because—and this is the important point—he has come to the conclusion that it is his duty to advise the King to dissolve Parliament? It is in the Prime Minister's hands to give that advice to the King whenever the Prime Minister pleases, with or without the consent of the Cabinet.
    That means, with the probability of an earlier ending of the war with Germany than was suggested by the Prime Minister yesterday, that there will be no opportunity to initiate the many Bills that will be necessary to carry out the promises made in the King's Speech. When that time comes the Prime Minister will have an alternative course open; and that al-

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    ternative, I suggest, might be considered by my hon. and gallant Friend who represents West Leeds. The Prime Minister has the power to advise the King to dissolve Parliament, but he is not compelled to exercise that power merely because the end of the war with Germany has arrived. He can consult the Cabinet and get them to agree that, whatever the opinion of the Conservative Party—who, like the Labour Party, have no reason to fear a General Election—rather than allow His Majesty's Gracious Speech to be outraged by its non-accomplishment, he should recommend an agreement between all parties to carry on with the work of Parliament until the social Measures outlined in the Speech have been put on the Statute Book.
    We on this side want these promises carried out before the General Election, for this reason. Under present conditions there is no possibility of this legislation being promoted unless we have plenty of time. Hon. Members with experience spread over many years know perfectly well that the legislative programme in this Speech—although, obviously, the Speech was composed with a full knowledge of the doubtful probability of its ever being carried through—would require much time and attention from Members in a wholehearted endeavour to carry the legislation through.
    It is true that the Government are proposing that Standing Committees may be brought forward again in the new year. I am not sure that we shall gain time by the appointment of Standing Committees in place of a Committee of the Whole House. I have vivid recollections of Standing Committees on controversial matters being very obstructive. Knowing, as we do, that there are Members opposite who will stop at no form of obstruction to prevent these Measures being implemented, I am sure that we shall get along much more quickly if these matters are entrusted to a Committee of the Whole House than if they are entrusted to Standing Committees. We are past the time when we can consider the continuation of the Coalition after the war, but when the Prime Minister is satisfied that the war with Germany is at an end, and when he is satisfied that he will get the support of Members on this side of the House for continuing Parliament until these
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    Measures are turned into Acts of Parliament, we shall then be in a better position to judge of the honesty and sincerity of every Member in desiring to carry through this business.
    5.37 p.m.
    Mr. Culverwell: Like other speakers in this Debate, I want to discuss our peace aims, or war aims, whichever one likes to call them. During the course of five or more years of war, some people seem to have become a little vague as to exactly why we declared war on Germany. I am afraid that many of our people, for instance, have fallen victims to our own propaganda, and think that this is a crusade for freedom and democracy, whatever those terms may mean—and they mean different things to different people—that the armistice will usher in an era of peace and prosperity, that everybody will be better off, and that we shall live a happier life under the shelter of the Atlantic Charter and other Sermons on the Mount which have been preached by various Ministers—although I would point out that the Sermon on the Mount at least applied to all men, whereas the Atlantic Charter excludes some 250,000,000 of the human race. Some hon. Members above the Gangway seem to have "gone haywire" about the benefits they expect from this war. They hope to see Socialism spring up everywhere, even to be imposed if necessary—their own particular brands of Socialism, of course. They expect to see unemployment abolished, and peace and plenty supervene. As the hon. and gallant Member for Oxford University (Petty Officer Herbert) wittily wrote, why do not we have bigger, better, and more frequent wars?
    We heard all this after the last war, all about homes for heroes and the world being made safe for democracy. But was the world safer after 1918? It was not even safe for democracy. We did not declare war on Germany for the sake of freedom and democracy, still less to promote Socialism. Sometimes I wonder why hon. Members above the Gangway opposed National Socialism before the war. After all, National Socialism and their own creed have much in common. I can only imagine that it was professional jealousy, because a corporal was able in peace time to put so many of their precepts into practice whilst they have had to wait for a war to push this country

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    along the road to serfdom. I think we have quite enough of our own difficulties—Palestine, India, Ireland and our own domestic troubles—without meddling in other countries' affairs unless they threaten our interests, and that is the first point I want to make. I am supported in this contention by William Pitt, who, in this House, on 10th November, 1797, spoke as follows:
    "I have no hesitation in avowing … that for the sake of mankind in general, and to gratify those sentiments which can never be eradicated from the human heart, I should see with pleasure and satisfaction the termination of a government whose conduct and whose origin is such as we have seen that of the government of France, but that is not the object—that ought not to be the principle of the war, whatever wish I may entertain in my own heart."
    Nor do I think that we declared war on Germany for the freedom or the rights of small nations and against aggression. If that is so, we have been lamentably unsuccessful and lamentably inconsistent, as in the case of Finland, the Baltic States and Poland, and the threats of many leaders of public opinion towards neutrals, all of which can be taken as meaning the failure of our object, if that was the reason why we went to war. But I do not think that we are fighting for any of these things, but simply and solely because the growing strength and aggressive policy of Germany appeared to threaten our security and existence. We are fighting for the very good and sufficient reason, which is the only reason why nations are willing to fight, for the defence of our vital interests, and I quote the Prime Minister in support of that view. He was under no ideological illusion when he wrote, in 1936:
    "British policy for 400 years has been to oppose the strongest Power in Europe by weaving together a combination of other countries strong enough to face the bully. Sometimes it is Spain, sometimes the French Monarchy, sometimes the French Empire, sometimes Germany."
    Stripped of all frills about freedom and democracy, barbarism and aggression, our fundamental aim is as it always has been, and as I hope it always will be, to defend our vital interests against any one Power gaining a hegemony of Europe. When that danger is removed, then our purpose is achieved.
    I have said that because I think many people do not recognise that that is the fundamental aim of the war. They have been tricked by oratory about democracy,
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    the freedom of small States and that sort of thing. Therefore, we should keep our minds glued to that point. If our intentions are fulfilled, Germany and Japan, after this war, will be and will remain disarmed, impoverished and dismembered, and, now that the Chinese bubble has been burst, and until France revives, power will rest in the hands of America, Russia and the British Empire. Germany can be repressed by any one of these Powers, or even by such a small country as Belgium. The real problem we have to face is not Germany at all, and all the talk about how to keep her powerless is beside the point.
    The real problem is whether good will and unity will inspire the victors, or whether mistrust, ambition and self seeking will prevail. If harmony prevails, then peace is assured. If there is discord, then any plans made for keeping Germany down will be destroyed. The problem seems to me to be exactly what happened after the last war. I remember that in 1919 I wrote that the League of Nations was an alliance of the Allies for the maintenance of the status quo, and I do not think I was far wrong. The Council of the United Nations is a precisely similar body though it makes less pretence about its purpose. The League failed, not because it had no weapons, but because it had no will. The armed and victorious Allies became disunited. When people talked about the teeth of the League of Nations, that was quite beside the point. No amount of teeth would have made it function except to coerce small Powers whose disputes did not affect the interests of any of the great Powers.
    It is the same to-day. Once Germany is disarmed, she can be kept powerless as long as the Allies wish, but, if the Allies fall out and Germany can play off one against the other and hold the balance of power between them, whatever precautions have been taken will be of no avail. If Germany is defeated and disarmed, the German problem ceases to exist, if we assume that the victorious Allies will remain armed and united. After all, that is the basis on which all these plans are being made and on which we base all our hopes; that is, that the victors will remain armed and united. If we are only seeking security, a Carthaginian peace therefore seems unnecessary. Only if we are seeking vengeance, punishment

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    or economic advantage can such a peace be justified and Germany converted into a vast Borstal Institution. But we should surely decide which policy we are following for this reason—that the demand for unconditional surrender and the fear of a harsh peace are undoubtedly prolonging the war by stiffening German resistance. If you are only offered blood and sweat and tears, whether you fight on or surrender, you may as well fight on, and, for that reason, I regard those who are in favour of unconditional surrender as doing a great disservice to our Armed Forces by producing a stiffening effect upon our enemies. In one of our most eminent journals the other day, the opinion was expressed that if Lord Vansittart had not existed at all, Goebbels would have had to invent him.
    I am encouraged in this view by Mr. Thomas Dewey's recent speech, in which he said that Allied lives were being lost and the war needlessly prolonged by the slogan of unconditional surrender, and that the Morgenthau hard peace plan had been worth at least ten fresh divisions to the Germans in stiffening their resistance.
    I therefore beg the Government to reconsider their attitude on this matter, although I know, of course, that they have to maintain an accord with our Allies and that we cannot blame the Government for everything. If we only aim at security, an Allied Control Commission could report any sign of rearmament in Germany, and this, backed up by the threat of bombing, could keep Germany powerless for as long as the Allies wish. Therefore all the elaborate schemes for re-education, the destruction or control of industry, the partition of Germany, and so on, seem to me unnecessary and impracticable, and undesirable.
    Captain Bernays: I do not understand the hon. Member's point. How is Germany going to be rendered harmless unless we first secure her unconditional surrender?
    Mr. Culverwell: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is confusing, I think, the application of unconditional surrender with Armistice terms and peace terms. In the last war Germany rendered herself militarily impotent when she signed the Armistice, but she only signed the Armistice on condition that the peace terms should be based on certain principles,
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    which were a condition of the Armistice. I am not suggesting for a moment that we should not insist on the complete disarmament of Germany at the Armistice, but what I am suggesting is that the fact that we are going to destroy and mutilate Germany and break up her industries, and so on, is likely to stiffen the German resistance.
    Mr. Ivor Thomas: I do not think that it should go out from the House that Germany did make peace on those conditions.
    Mr. Culverwell: I have studied the whole history of the last peace, and if I had time I could give the hon. Member the whole information. The Allies definitely accepted the Fourteen Points of President Wilson, and the Germans accepted them and the Armistice was signed on that understanding, and the evidence is in the Library of this House. I say that these elaborate schemes are impracticable and are also undesirable. They may prevent that harmonious co-operation and intercourse among the nations of Europe which alone may discourage aggression. It is not a question of being kind to the Germans. That is always the sort of cheap talk one hears when one tries to approach peace aims in a realistic way. It is not a question of being kind to the Germans and indulging in sloppy sentimentality but a question of what will work and go on working when passions have cooled and this war generation has passed away. I do not think that the hon. Member for South Salford (Mr. Stourton) faced that problem very successfully when he spoke. I cannot imagine anything less likely to prevent peace and security than the extension of France's frontiers to the Rhine, as he suggested. One might imagine that Germany would feel strongly the loss of Cologne, as France did the loss of Alsace and Lorraine. We know what a cancer that had been in the body of Europe for 50 years before the last war. I think that the extension of Poland to the River Oder, to within 100 miles of Berlin, is not going to make for contentment, which, the hon. Member said, was the only hope on which future peace could depend. Lord Castlereagh, in a dispatch to the Prime Minister during the Congress of Vienna in 1815, wrote:
    "The more I reflect upon it the more I deprecate the system of scratching such a

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    Power. We may hold her down and pare her nails so that many years shall pass away before she can wound us … but this system of being pledged to a Continental war for objects that France may any day reclaim from the particular States that hold them, without pushing her demands beyond what she would contend was due to her own honour is, I am sure, a bad British policy."
    We should try to diminish the causes of war and not to increase them, and I ask the Government not to commit itself on such vital matters as frontier rectification. I sum up what I have tried to say in a few words. This is not in essence an ideological war but a struggle to restore the balance of power. Already a new grouping of the nations is taking place, and indeed, has been encouraged by various Members who have spoken to-day; and only so long as those Eastern and Western European groups act in harmony can Germany's revival of power be prevented however elaborate and drastic are the peace terms. This country's policy should be first to rely on its own armed strength for its security, and, secondly, to build up a system of understandings and agreements with other sympathetic Powers for our mutual defence. Lastly, we should give wholehearted support to the United Nations Council without relying too much on its efficacy. Only then do I believe that we may successfully weather the storm which the defeat of Germany may well bring about.
    Ordered: "That the Debate be now adjourned."—[Captain McEwen.]
    Debate to be resumed To-morrow.

    PRIVILEGES
    Committee of Privileges to consist of Ten Members:
    Mr. Attlee, the Attorney-General, Colonel Sir George Courthope, Mr. Greenwood, Sir Percy Harris, Mr. Hore-Belisha, Mr. Lambert, Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew, Sir Hugh O'Neill and Earl Winterton.
    Power to send for persons, papers and records.
    Five to be the quorum.—[Major Sir James Edmondson.]

    PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
    Committee of Public Accounts nominated:
    Sir Irving Albery, Mr. Benson, Sir Edmund Brocklebank, Major Sir George
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    Davies, Mr. Douglas, Mr. D. O. Evans, Mr. Glenvil Hall, Mr. Jewson, Sir John Mellor, Mr. Peake, Mr. Pickthorn, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton-Pownall, Sir Frank Sanderson, Mr. Silkin and Mr. Touche.—[Major Sir James Edmondson.]

  KITCHEN AND REFRESHMENT ROOMS (HOUSE OF COMMONS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to control the arrangements for the Kitchen and Refreshment Rooms in the department of the Serjeant at Arms attending this House."—[Major Sir James Edmondson.]
  5.58 p.m.
  Mr. Driberg: Before the House agrees to the appointment of this Committee, I would like to raise one point briefly which I think would be in Order. It might happen—I do not think there is any particular secret about this—that some time within the near future, at any rate within the next year, this Committee might be called upon to appoint a new catering manager, to supervise the Refreshment Department of this House. If that were to happen, I want to suggest that the Committee should make only an interim appointment, pending the fuller demobilisation of the Forces. I want to suggest that, not only because it seems to some extent a matter of fairness to those now serving in the Forces who might be well equipped to fill this quite responsible post, but also in the interest of securing the most efficient man for the job. I am sure that there must be many thousands of people now serving in the Forces who could perhaps fill that job very efficiently, but who would not be considered if a permanent appointment were to be made in the near future.
  Mr. Bowles: I do not know what the procedure is, but I would like to oppose the appointment of this Committee before the House has had an opportunity of discussing the facilities and the services provided by the Committee. I think I am not alone in suggesting to-day that this Committee be not appointed.
  6 p.m.
  Mr. A. Bevan: I want to support that point of view. I know very well that people work under very great disabilities in war-time, but I do not see any reason at all why the House of Commons should submit itself to the pro-

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  longed masochism of the Kitchen Committee. I am going to oppose the re-appointment of the Committee on the grounds of general incompetence. We have raised this matter on several occasions and we have had no satisfaction. Now it is well known that these Committees are usually appointed by consultation through the usual channels, and over many years these quite worthy Members of the House of Commons, distinguished only by an absence of gastronomic imagination, have been in charge, and we have borne it. I do not see why we should continue to bear it any longer. The meals are bad, expensive, and dull. You can go into any British Restaurant in this country and get better food more cheaply than you can get in the House of Commons, and I see no reason at all why we should bear this any longer. Therefore, before we agree to the reappointment of the Kitchen Committee, I think the House of Commons ought to be given an opportunity of discussing the matter.
  It being Six o'Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.
  Debate to be resumed To-morrow.

  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (EXIT PERMITS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain McEwen.]
  6.1 p.m.
  Mr. Hamilton Kerr: The immediate occasion of this Debate is the refusal of the Home Secretary to grant exit visas to the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Tree) and myself. The story can be told in a few sentences. Our object was to attend the big debate on foreign affairs last week in the French Constituent Assembly, to contact leaders of the resistance movement in France and, in general, to instruct ourselves on the political situation. Under the present system it is necessary for a Government Department to sponsor anyone who wishes to leave the country. In our case, it was the Ministry of Information. The Ministry had, provisionally, booked two seats in the aircraft leaving on Wednesday, 22nd November. We had taken soundings in the various appropriate Ministries. Our passports had waited
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  some 10 days at the Home Office and on Thursday, 23rd November, the day after we were due to leave, we received a letter from the Home Secretary dated Tuesday, 21st November, which had taken some little time in transit.
  However, I wish to pass from the facts of this individual case to a question which is I believe of principle and which vitally concerns all hon. Members in this House—it is the relation of Parliament to the Executive. When we consider this problem of the relation of Parliament to the Executive, I believe we should try to form a clear picture in our minds of the duties of the individual Member of Parliament, and I suppose all of us here feel that, first and foremost, come the interests of our constituencies. If we could sum up our attitude in a few words, we would say that we seek to make our constituencies the best-served and the best-governed in the country, and in doing this, it is part of our task to educate ourselves, to inform ourselves of the facts, and tell our constituents about the many vital problems which come up in this House in the course of a year. Chief among these at the moment, I claim, are foreign affairs. This country is facing a tremendous task in the future. I remember being deeply touched by a letter written by a Frenchman under the German domination, describing his agony at listening, night after night, to the bombers going out over the coast-line in 1940, and how watchers on the coast-line saw the glow of fires from distant London. Europe has, for four years, been under German domination. I think we do not sufficiently realise how much Europe looks to us for leadership, and how the Debates in this House are carefully studied to give a lead in regard to the problems of the future, because, rightly or wrongly, this House is regarded as a model of political stability and of wisdom.
  Therefore I contend that we, in our task here, in performing our individual duties according to our conscience, resemble, if I may borrow an aircraft phrase, an operations room. Reports coming in from the various sectors to the officers in the operations room show the picture as a whole, and each problem in its just proportion. But to be a good Member of Parliament requires time and training, just as any other trade or profession. I believe it is because hon. Members,

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  throughout the history of Parliament, have given that time and energy to instructing themselves that our Parliamentary system enjoys the prestige it has. That is just as important to-day as it was in the past. We may be told that the Press has, to some extent, taken the place of Parliament. Having served on one of the great London daily newspapers for a year, until I was "fired," and on another for six months, I have a healthy respect for the Press and its efficiency, but nothing can replace the influence of the spoken word, so that hon. Members here have a vital task in instructing their constituents in the current problems of the day.
  I believe that Parliament and Members willingly surrender those powers and their privileges only under certain conditions. The first is that, in war-time, measures of security necessarily arise, and the second, perhaps also owing to war conditions, is that transport is difficult. The Home Secretary, in his letter of 21st November, referred to the difficulties of transport. Having worked for two years in the Air Ministry as Parliamentary Private Secretary to my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Captain Balfour) I was under the impression—in fact, I know—that transport is the province of the Air Ministry, of Transport Command, and I was interested to read of the refusal of our visas being due to transport difficulties. It is an open secret that planes leave this country twice a day, often half empty, and that Members of the United States Congress, 18 in number, have recently flown to Paris, and that three weeks ago another party, numbering 14, went by air. In addition, people like Professor Harold Laski attended the Trade Union Conference in Paris. I take that as natural and use it as an argument for all responsible Members being allowed to go to France.
  How do hon. Members' duties compare with those of the Executive? I believe it is clear in our minds that the Prime Minister appoints his Ministers, but the Prime Minister could not retain power if he forfeited the confidence of the House and thus, indirectly, or perhaps directly, the Ministers we see on the Front Bench are limited by our will. I consider that the primary function of the Home Secretary is to guard the security of this country. He must decide whether an individual is undesirable in the interests of this country,
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  whether he may enter or leave. If he considers that an individual is desirable in every way, then I believe he must grant that person an exit visa. Furthermore, he stands in special relationship to each one of us, as a Member of Parliament. If it is our duty to inform ourselves by every means in our power, so that we can carry ou efficiently our functions, then I believe that it is an infringement on the part of a Minister to stop a back bencher trying to do his duty, to the best of his ability. If it be true that these alleged transport difficulties are the main reason for stopping Members of Parliament from travelling to France at present, is it right that the Home Secretary should use this argument, because I am convinced that transport comes under the Air Ministry? Perhaps this point may be cleared up, and this small occasion may help the House to clear its mind on the rights of the Executive when dealing with those who form the Legislature.
  6.10 p.m.
  Mr. Tree: I rise to support the case which my hon. Friend has put. I want to make it quite clear that I am not bringing it up in any personal sense at all, but because I believe it involves an important and fundamental issue, affecting all Members of the House in carrying out their functions and duties. One of the many functions of a Member of Parliament is to inform himself on those matters in which he is particularly interested, and in which he speaks on the Floor of the House from time to time. Surely at this time in the history of Europe, when we are witnessing a veritable re-birth resulting from an occupation of four years, it is essential that Members of Parliament should visit other countries, in order to establish contacts with new figures that are arising and be able to tell Members, and their own constituents, what they have seen, whom they have talked to and what their ideas are. Certainly this view is shared by Members of the American Congress. Ever since the liberation of France, there has been a steady flow of Members of both the Senate and the House of Representatives to the theatres of war, and only this morning or yesterday, a party of 17 departed by transport plane for France and Italy.
  In 1939, owing to the overriding necessity of the war effort, and the fact that at that time, transport facilities were

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  severely limited, hon. Members, gladly and without any demur, gave up any rights that they may have had in the matter of travel. It was quite obvious that the war effort must always be the overriding consideration in all these matters, but is it true that that is the main factor in this incident and that at this stage of the war, the war effort could be in any way impeded by Members interested in any sphere of activity, Colonial, Empire or foreign, if they wish to go and study the position on the spot, not being enabled to do so? Why should it be the Home Secretary who is to decide on these matters? I can quite understand that it is necessary for a Member of Parliament desiring to go abroad to ask the Foreign Secretary if there is any objection to his going. Equally, anyone going to the Colonies or to the Dominions would ask the Dominions Secretary. It is also essential that they should consult the Ministry of War Transport as to whether there is accommodation on the ships or the planes, on which they want to travel. But why, in addition to that, is it necessary for them to consult with the Home Secretary?
  Mr. A. Bevan: Is it not a fact that this refusal had its origin in the Foreign Office, and that the Home Secretary is acting under coercion?
  Mr. Tree: The hon. Member is anticipating what I was going to say. In these cases, does the Home Secretary ring up the Ministry of War Transport and ask if there are any planes available, or does he ask the Foreign Office if they have any objection? I do not think he does. I think he merely gives a flat denial. At least, that is what would appear to be the case in this instance. Surely, the time has come when a system that was inaugurated at quite a different period of the war, to meet different circumstances, should be radically overhauled with the object of facilitating and assisting Members, instead of, as at present seems to be the case, frustrating and irritating them.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Herbert Morrison): I would say, in the first place, that the consideration of requests by Members of Parliament and the policy as to whether the requests should be granted or not, are
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  not matters which are, or in my judgment ought to be, settled by the Home Secretary individually. On the question of, I will not say privileges or rights, because that is putting it a bit too high—[HON. MEMBERS: "No"]. It has been stated in this House repeatedly that the Government must decide on consents to go abroad, and, in fact, they have upheld the doctrine for a considerable time that a Member of Parliament wishing to go abroad must, like any other citizen—this may be right or wrong, but it has been what has been done—show that it is to the nation's advantage that he should go. That has been the policy which the Government have applied. I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong, but that is the policy. There has been no secret about it; it has been confirmed and, on the whole, in war-time conditions, the House has accepted it.
  It would be wrong, because of the relationship between Ministers and Parliament and the respect that Ministers and the Government owe to Parliament, that the policy behind the granting or the non-granting of exit permits to Members of Parliament, should be settled by the Home Secretary, or, indeed, any other individual Minister. Therefore, from time to time, the Government, as a whole, consider what the policy ought to be, and whether revision should be made. Indeed, before this discussion came on to-day I consulted my colleagues in the Government about it, and I am speaking not only for myself but for the Government as a whole. Therefore, there is no need to be personal on the matter, because it is Government policy, as it ought to be, but neither I nor His Majesty's Government have any wish, in present circumstances, to impede Members of Parliament from going to France. On the contrary, I not only accept, but I affirm, the view that there is a great deal to be said for Members of Parliament going to France in present circumstances or in circumstances as they are likely to be in the coming times.
  The only thing I have to be careful about is that there must be equity between Members of Parliament and other citizens and between Members of Parliament and Members of Parliament. There ought not to be privileges for particular Members of Parliament. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about Ministers and their wives?"]

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  Ministers are another matter. [HON. MEMBERS: "And their wives."] Let us not get to the point of individual jealousy about this. I am dealing with Members of Parliament in the ordinary way, and I say that there must be equity and fairness as between Members of Parliament. If they are going qua Members of Parliament, and not because they have a special case of business of positive national advantage, and so on, then, whatever facilities are available must be made available to all Members in the House of Commons. That is our fundamental difficulty in the matter. So there is no unfriendliness about it and no wish to be awkward. Indeed, I think there is much to be said for such visits being paid. It is a question of when, and of ways and means whereby comprehensive facilities could be given to hon. Members.
  There is a misunderstanding as to the relationship between the Home Office and other Departments in this matter. The authority for preventing a person from coming into this country or going out is the Home Secretary. There is nothing new in that, so far as I know. That has been the practice for as long as I can remember, and that is why I answer on this Debate. I must take responsibility in this matter, nevertheless——
  Mr. Manningham-Buller: May I ask whether the Home Office had any power to stop people leaving the country before the war?
  Mr. Morrison: Yes, so far as I remember, and from coming into it. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I have got to cover a fair amount of ground, and the point is immaterial. I only say that there is nothing new about the Department affected being the Home Office. Necessarily it is the Home Office. It cannot very well be any other Department. Other Departments are interested. A private citizen or a Member of Parliament may wish to go to America or France, or some other country, on business, on legitimate business, to the advantage of Great Britain or the United Kingdom, or on business of urgent and pressing importance and so on——
  Commander Agnew: Will the right hon. Gentleman permit me to ask——
  Mr. Morrison: I have to cover a fair amount of ground and I think I ought to be permitted to continue. There is not much time and I have to finish my speech at half-past six. What do I do in that case? The Member of Parliament or the business man has been to the appropriate State Department, which may be the Board of Trade or the Department of Overseas Trade, has told them why he wants to go and has asked them to recommend to the Home Office that he should be permitted to go. If he has not, my people will ring up the Department concerned or see them and ask what their views are on this particular application. If it is an application in another respect and on other grounds, similarly the observations of the appropriate State Department will be obtained. That is how it works, but the decision must be, in my judgment, the decision of the Home Secretary or the Home Office. I do not see how else it can work. The trouble is that a Government Department from its own angle may say to itself: "So far as we are concerned there is no objection to this person going," and they may be quite right from their angle; but I have to weigh up priorities, fairnesses and equities as between one person and another.
  Mr. Bowles: The right hon. Gentleman is talking about business people?
  Mr. Morrison: I am talking about anybody. [Interruption.] I am very sorry. It is no good hon. Members getting excited. I have got this job to do and, believe me, I know how it is done and I will tell hon. Members. The Department then considers the application in relation to the general body of permissions in these respects, and the policy of the Government as a whole, and it decides. After all, it must be one Department that decides. Otherwise there would be conflicting policies all over the place. Trouble arises sometimes—it ought not to arise, but I quite understand how it does—when the Department which has to make its observations to the Home Office tells the person concerned what it is going to recommend. It is a little bit awkward if that happens, because if the Home Office takes another view, as the Department which has to decide, we get the situation in which it is alleged that one Department is willing for a person to go while the

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  naughty Home Office is not. It seems to me that the Department should hear the applicant, make its representations to the Home Office, and that the Home Office, in the light of the circumstances, must decide and take responsibility for the decision. That is how the machine works.
  In the case of the Members of Parliament, my hon. Friends not unnaturally went to the Foreign Office, because their application concerned a visit to a foreign country, and foreign affairs were the interesting angle. I do not complain that they should have done it. Quite a strong case can be made out for doing it. Nevertheless, it had to come to the Home Office in due course for the decision to be operated. This is our difficulty; here is a limited amount of transport. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Believe me, it is so.
  Mr. Bowles: Does the right hon. Gentleman claim to be responsible for transport?
  Mr. Morrison: I have to consider transport.
  Mr. A. Bevan: Nonsense.
  Mr. Morrison: I have to consider it in this respect, or the Government have to consider it. It is no use hon. Members losing their tempers. I am not going to lose mine and I hope hon. Members will not lose theirs. We are undoubtedly bound to consider it in that respect. First of all there is the policy which the Government as a whole have decided as to whether Members of Parliament can have a particular privilege or right to go abroad. We have not accepted that as a Government.
  Mr. Bevan: Well, we do.
  Mr. Morrison: Well, we do not.
  Earl Winterton: Who are "we"?
  Mr. Morrison: The Government.
  Earl Winterton: What about the House of Commons?
  Hon. Members: Divide.
  Mr. Morrison: In the end that can be done, but it cannot be put now, that is perfectly clear. The Government are faced with this situation. They must have
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  a general policy and a general line about exit permits. They are then faced with this situation, that the number of people who can go to France in existing circumstances is strictly limited. There was some surplus transport at the time when the French were not ready to give visas, but now they are there is a limitation. The number of business men with legitimate British interests asking for permits to go to France is considerably beyond the accommodation available, and, indeed, I am informed by the Minister of Production that at the present time even important industrial firms with large commercial and business interests in France have been unable to send their representatives over. We are bound to take this into account. The other people who wish to go are cases of compassionate nature, sometimes of a pretty serious and dramatic character——
  Captain Cunningham-Reid (St. Marylebone): Like Noel Coward?
  Mr. Morrison: —and French people who wish to go back. I could answer all these individual cases if there was time, but there is not. I think hon. Members should be fair. I am not having an easy time, and I have not much time in which to reply. There is this limited accommodation, and in regard to compassionate appeals of an urgent character we are having to say "No" to all of them.
  Mr. Molson: In which category did Professor Laski fall—compassionate or professional?
  Mr. Bevan: Who are you getting at—Noel Coward or Lady Anderson?
  Mr. Morrison: On the point of Professor Laski, he was treated in the same way as a Conservative person would have been treated. He was requested to go by the Socialist Party of France and was permitted, and if a responsible political party in France had asked my right hon. Friend for the hon. Members they would have been treated in exactly the same way.
  Mr. Bevan: Did not Lady Anderson take a maid and a detective?
  Mr. Morrison: I come to the point about Members of Parliament in general. If we are to say that Members of Parliament in general should be able to go we shall, if the numbers of M.P.'s correspond to what

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  we imagine they might be, have to exclude the business men with urgent business interests, and other urgent cases. We thought it right, and we thought that the House would be willing, that Members of Parliament would not as such claim special privileges over other persons, and would agree with the Government that, as things are, we have got to run the policy on those lines.
  Finally, may I say this, that it is the hope of the Government that the transport situation will be improved. As I said at the beginning, there is no wish that Members of Parliament should not go to France. It is a matter of ways and means, and the Home Office has to be equitable and fair, as between individual and individual. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is not."] We think it is, but that can be argued.
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  There is no public transport at the moment, only military transport; and on military transport no fares are charged. We think, in these circumstances, that we must hold the scales fairly as between one person and another. With regard to the American Congressmen, I have no responsibility whatever: they are sent by the American authorities. I understand that they are a delegation from the Military Affairs Committee of the American Congress, and they have gone under American military auspices. I hope that nobody is going to make the Home Office responsible for the American Government.
  It being Half-past Six o'Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

  BRITISH EXPORTS (PUBLICITY EXPENDITURE)
  BRITISH EXPORTS (PUBLICITY EXPENDITURE)
  OPEN-CAST COAL (PRODUCTION COSTS)
  OPEN-CAST COAL (PRODUCTION COSTS)
Preamble
The House met at two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

  EXPORT TRADE: GOVERNMENT MACHINERY.
  2.8 p.m.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK VISCOUNT ELIBANK had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government whether, in view of the proposals outlined by the Minister for Economic Warfare in the House of Lords under which the Economic Intelligence Branch of his Department will be handed over to the Foreign Office on the conclusion of the war with Germany, and of the proposals for the reform of the Foreign Service set out in White Paper Cmd. 6420/ 1943, they will make a statement regarding the post-war economic functions of the Foreign Office; and whether the arrangements will be such as will in any way curtail or affect the activities of the Overseas Trade Department; and whether their activities will be maintained on the same basis as before the war; to make certain suggestions; and to move for Papers.
  The noble Viscount said: My Lords, in the gracious Speech from the Throne yesterday it was stated that the Government would try to create conditions favourable to the expansion of our export trade. The Motion which I have on the Paper is directed to that end and relates to the Government machinery which is so necessary to assist in creating those favourable conditions. I therefore venture to suggest to your Lordships that the Motion I am moving to-day is moved at a most appropriate moment. It is perfectly true to say that the revival of our export trade will very largely depend upon the initiative and enterprise of individual traders and also upon the modern efficiency of our manufacturers and industrialists. But it is just as true to say that our traders and manufacturers cannot expect to obtain the best results from those efforts unless in addition they
  54
  have the assistance of Government machinery with a personnel specially trained and expert in foreign trade and assisted overseas by specially trained and expert official trade representatives located in the various foreign centres.
  It is further essential that our traders, manufacturers, and industrialists when they visit foreign countries in search of trade should be able to procure on the spot from these official British trade representatives all the best advice obtainable from them with regard to local trading conditions, business firms and individuals in those centres. Of the utmost importance also is it that these official trade representatives should be on the staffs and have the full backing of our Ambassadors and Ministers and of the Foreign Office. Unless this specialized form of Government machinery, which I have briefly outlined, is perfected and made available so soon as the war is over, our traders and manufacturers will find themselves at a serious disadvantage compared with the traders and manufacturers of countries such as, for instance, the United States of America, who have already gone out with both hands—and I do not blame them—to seize all the export trade they can in every part of the world. They have, for a very long time, had a form of machinery such as I have described to assist them and this no doubt will be improved upon.
  We must have a foreign trade policy and we must have an Empire trade policy. But it is with our foreign trade policy that I am particularly concerned to-day and I wish to address your Lordships upon it. I submit that a foreign trade policy can only properly be devised and revised from time to time by an ad hoc Department of the Government which has all the foreign strings in its fingers and is in constant expert touch with foreign trade matters all over the world. It is within your Lordships' recollection that in the debates on the 9th and 17th May last we were informed that the Economic Intelligence Branch of the Ministry of Economic Warfare was to be handed over to the Foreign Office after the war. As a matter of fact, there has been a public announcement quite recently telling us that this will happen on the 3Ist December. Seeing on the Front Bench my noble friend Lord Selborne, I wish to say that whilst I am sorry that De-

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  partment is being closed down so early in view of the war in the Far East—a matter which we discussed in the former debate—at the same time I do wish to congratulate him on the way that he has administered the Department during the time it has been under his care. In addition to the Economic Intelligence Branch of the Ministry of Economic Warfare, we were told in those debates that the Foreign Office is to be made responsible—and this is a very grave and tremendous responsibility—for the planning of many economic operations in connexion with Germany after the war, including the post-war economic disarmament and economic control of Germany.
  Since those debates I have carefully examined and re-examined the position both from a retrospective and from a prospective point of view, and I have come to certain conclusions which I venture to submit to your Lordships and the Government in to-day's debate. These conclusions, I admit, are not altogether along the line of thought which was indicated by me in those debates, but so far as I am concerned my only wish is to find a satisfactory solution of this very difficult problem which is so bound up with our economic future. The first result of my examination is that as the proposals for the reform of the Foreign Office have in principle received the approval and sanction of both Houses of Parliament, there is now no going back upon them. I accept that. What is also abundantly clear is that under the reform arrangements the Foreign Office are establishing a new sub-department which will contain the Enemy Branch of the Ministry of Economic Warfare, and to that sub-department apparently there will also be attached commercial, diplomatic and consular services. According to the Foreign Service Reform Paper, as I understand it, their functions will be to advise the Foreign Secretary upon all questions of foreign economic and commercial intelligence. What I am anxious to know, and what others are anxious to know, is how far the functions of this new sub-department of the Foreign Office will be executive as well as advisory, and how far they will be dovetailed with the functions of the Overseas Trade Department, and what the functions of the Overseas Trade Department will be.
  These questions are questions which require very careful answering because in them is bound up the effective and efficient regulation of the future specialized form of governmental machinery for assisting our trade in foreign countries. For nearly twenty years before the war the Overseas Trade Department was a balancing Department between the Foreign Office and the Board of Trade. It was responsible to both those Departments. This form of dual control was established at the time the Overseas Trade Department was formed, and it has been maintained and continued ever since as the result of the recommendations of the Cave Committee, which reported in 1919. Previous to the setting up of the Cave Committee the unsatisfactory position arising out of dual control was recognized and as a solution it was proposed by the Board of Trade that it should absorb the Overseas Trade Department. On the other hand the Foreign Office proposed that in order to do away with this dual control the Department should be absorbed into the Foreign Office.
  From the report of the Cave Committee, I quote this passage:
  "— that in the business community of this country there is a strong body of opinion adverse to this proposal—"
  namely, the absorption of the Overseas Trade Department by the Board of Trade—
  "on the grounds that business men attach great importance to being able to interest directly in foreign commercial questions that Department, namely, the Foreign Office, which has power to exercise diplomatic pressure in a foreign country, and that to divorce commercial from political work will be disastrous and that traders must have direct access to the Foreign Office."
  The Committee went on to say that they were unable to find agreement on this point between the Board of Trade and the Foreign Office, and so finally, with one dissentient, Mr. Dudley Docker—a very great industrialist and the only business man so far as I can see who was a member of the Committee—they recommended that the system of dual control should be maintained. This system has been continued to the present day, but it is just as unsatisfactory to-day as it was when the Cave Committee was set up in order to consider it. One of the main objections recently advanced in your Lordships' House against it was that the Foreign Office has now become a mere Post Office

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  for the Overseas Trade Department and has no direct control over what happens. Moreover, it has been submitted that the reasons given to the Cave Committee against the absorption of the Overseas Trade Department by the Board of Trade not only still hold good but are strengthened by the fact that foreign political and economic fields will after the war be even mere interconnected than they have been in the past. It is obvious therefore that the main bone of contention is still the Overseas Trade Department and its dual control. The problem is what to do with that Department in order to make it a more useful instrument for the promotion of our foreign trade interests. That is what matters, nothing else.
  So far as I am concerned, and I believe I can truthfully speak for the business community, my only interest is to secure a good set of governmental machinery which will help to start our foreign trade going again, to keep it going and to extend it materially. With this object I am going to suggest to the Government that they should do away with the system of dual control and that the Department of Overseas Trade should be completely taken over by the Foreign Office. Looking at the matter from all angles, the Foreign Office seems to me the most appropriate Department to absorb it. I do not suggest that there are not certain officials in the Overseas Trade Department who might go to the Board of Trade—those who have been more closely associated with Empire trade—but I submit as a general principle that the .Foreign Office should be the Department which should take over the Overseas Trade Department. I further suggest that for this purpose a new branch of the Foreign Office should be formed, to be called, say, the Commercial and Economic Branch, and that this new branch should take over in addition to the Overseas Trade Department both the Enemy Branch from the Ministry of Economic Warfare and the Overseas Commercial, Diplomatic and Consular Services. I would also suggest that the United Kingdom Commercial Corporation—I think that is the correct name—should be finally wound up, and that such of its staff as would be helpful in this new branch of the Foreign Office should be absorbed in the Foreign Office. A branch of the Foreign Office established in that way would, I believe, have a
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  force and unity of purpose behind it which has been sadly lacking in the past under the system of dual control, when these two Departments, the Overseas Trade Department and the Foreign Office, have individually and collectively attempted to carry out these duties in the way they have.
  There is no gainsaying that so constituted—and constituted as an executive Department, not as an advisory Department—it would help to promote and expand our foreign trade everywhere. Traders and manufacturers would be dependent upon it for advice and assistance here and abroad. It would also assume the very important responsibility to which I referred earlier in my remarks—namely, the post-war economic disarmament and economic control of Germany—and presumably the same would apply in regard to other enemy countries. This new branch would further have to co-operate and work very closely in policy with the Board of Trade, which presumably would still be responsible for our internal trade and our trade with the Colonies and Dominions and for formulating our Empire trade policy. It would have to co-operate very closely also with the Dominions and Colonial Offices and the Ministry of Agriculture, because the foreign trade of the Dominions and Colonies is likely to expand very rapidly after the war. It is only through co-operation between all these Departments that a satisfactory foreign trade policy, and I may add a satisfactory Empire trade policy, can be formulated and carried out.
  The activities of this new branch, therefore, would cover a very wide arena and would no doubt be subject not infrequently to public and Parliamentary criticism. This being so, I wish to make a reservation in regard to my proposals. I suggest that this new branch should not be made into just an ordinary sub-department of the Foreign Office under an Assistant Permanent Secretary. On the contrary, so as to add to it the weight it will require, it should, in my judgment, be given a very high status commensurate with its importance, and should have a Parliamentarian at the head of it of the status, at least, of a Minister of State, who should be second in command at the Foreign Office. He would be able to answer Parliamentary questions and to

  59
  formulate State policy in co-operation or in consultation with, and subject to, the Foreign Secretary. I would also suggest that that Minister of State should not only be a person of high standing in Parliamentary life but, if possible, should have commercial experience as well.
  These are the suggestions which I have to make for consideration of the Government, and, for the sake of convenience, as they may seem a little bit involved to some of your Lordships, I am just going to set out exactly what they are. Firstly, that in order to create satisfactory Government machinery for assisting and promoting our foreign export trade it is necessary to remove the existing unsatisfactory system of dual control by the Board of Trade and the Foreign Office over the Overseas Trade Department, and that, with that object, the Overseas Trade Department should be absorbed by the Foreign Office. Secondly, that a new branch of the Foreign Office, with executive functions, should be formed to be called the Commercial and Economic Branch of the Foreign Office. This branch should take over the Overseas Trade Department and also the Economic Intelligence Branch of the Ministry of Economic Warfare as well as the Commercial, Diplomatic and Consular Services. Thirdly, that this new branch of the Foreign Office should, subject of course to the Foreign Secretary, be directly charged with the formulation and carrying out of our foreign trade policy; that it should be assisted in all foreign countries by specially trained diplomatic, commercial trade representatives, who should be on the staffs of, and be directly responsible to, our Ambassadors and Ministers, and through them to the Foreign Office, thus ensuring local and Foreign Office expert backing in our foreign trade and its problems.
  My fourth suggestion is that a Parliamentarian of weight, high reputation and practical commercial experience, answerable to Parliament, should be placed in charge of this new branch of the Foreign Office with the standing of a Minister of State, second in command to the Foreign Secretary. Fifthly, that the Board of Trade should continue to be responsible for our internal trade and our trade with the Dominions and Colonies, and for the formulation and maintenance of our Empire trade policy. Sixthly and
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  finally, that in view of the expanding, foreign trade of the Dominions and Colonies, and to assist in formulating foreign trade policy—and I might also add Empire trade policy—there should, in future, be the closest co-operation in all trade matters between the Foreign Office, Board of Trade, Dominions and Colonial Offices and the Department of Agriculture.
  These then are the suggestions which I have to make to your Lordships and to the Government for the solution of this somewhat difficult problem. It is my hope that the Government will consider them in the same spirit as that in which I have submitted them, and that the War Cabinet will not allow themselves to be influenced by any Departmental differences or antagonisms, but will be governed only by consideration of the urgent need for creating the best specialized form of machinery possible for securing such Government aid for our foreign export trade as will breathe a new spirit into it and re-create it as a really vigorous entity in our economic life. I beg to move.
  2.33 p.m.
  THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I think we must be grateful to the noble Viscount for having raised, in a speech which showed much research, the question of the post-war economic functions of the Foreign Office, and of the position of the Department of Overseas Trade. In the debates which took place in your Lordships' House in March and July last year, about the reform of the Foreign Office and of the Diplomatic and Consular Services, the interdependence of economic and political problems was emphasized by various noble Lords who spoke with great authority and with considerable experience in these matters, and the need of a strong reinforcement of the Economic Branch of the Foreign Office was specially urged. We were, therefore, very happy to learn from the Minister of Economic Warfare, in May last, that arrangements were being made for the transfer of what was known as the Enemy Branch of his Ministry, in order to form a nucleus for the constitution of an Economic Intelligence Branch of the Foreign Office. The formation of an Economic Department of the Foreign Office with sufficient authority to advise the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is, to my mind, essen-

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  tial, if he is to be adequately equipped to deal with the very numerous world problems which will confront him after the war, and, indeed, may confront him even before that time. I therefore await with great interest, tinged with a Little anxiety, the reply which will be given by the Government spokesman on this particular point of the post-war economic position of the Foreign Office. I earnestly hope that it will prove satisfactory, but if it falls short of what a number of us desire then I shall take the opportunity of reverting to the subject when I have the honour of proposing to your Lordships the Motion which stands in my name, and which is on the Order Paper for December 13.
  I would like to turn for a few minutes to the second question raised by the noble Viscount—namely, the future of the Department of Overseas Trade. I fully recognize, and would wish to pay tribute to, the excellence of the work done in the past by the officers of that Department. But in doing so, I must not be held to imply that I consider that the existing arrangements are satisfactory. The Department of Overseas Trade is, as has already been pointed out, responsible both to the Foreign Office and to the Board of Trade, and everyone who has had experience of organization will realize that that is a situation which does not conduce to efficiency. It involves a duality of control and of allegiance, and though, by the oil of good will, the machine may function comparatively smoothly, yet the fact that it has two masters is likely to involve unnecessary friction in its working. I am therefore inclined to support the suggestion made by the noble Viscount that that part of the Department of Overseas Trade which deals with trade and commerce in foreign countries should be placed under the direct authority of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. As regards the remainder of the Department, it seems to me that its duties might well be taken over by the Board of Trade, as the noble Viscount has also suggested.
  It is true that if that happens the Department will disappear as an entity, but I see no advantage in the continuance of a Department or of a Ministry if the work which it performs can adequately and more satisfactorily be undertaken by other Departments. I realize that such a solution may disturb vested interests, and may therefore arouse
  62
  very stiff opposition. Noble Lords on the Benches on my left have sometimes inveighed against vested interests, mainly of individuals and corporations, but I can assure them that if an attack is made on the vested interests of a Government Department the trouble is infinitely greater. Nevertheless, I would remind your Lordships that an admirable example has recently been given us by the Minister of Economic Warfare, and that example seems worthy of emulation. It is true that his Ministry is a war-time one, but that in no way invalidates the argument which I have tried to place before your Lordships.
  Before coming to a final conclusion on this point, however, I should like to ask the noble Earl who is to reply for the Government two definite questions The first is whether the officers of the Department stationed at home and stationed abroad are interchangeable. It is quite clear that there are great advantages if they are interchangeable. I need hardly emphasize that point, because that advantage has already been recognized when the Foreign Office, the Diplomatic Service and the Consular Service all became interchangeable. I think the same advantages would be gained in this case. The second question is whether, if the officers are interchangeable, both those stationed at home and those stationed abroad are part of the Foreign Service. If they are not interchangeable, do the officers stationed abroad form part of the Foreign Service? I am inclined to suspect that the answer to the second question will be that the officers stationed in foreign countries constitute what is known as the Commercial Diplomatic Service, and that in its turn becomes part of the Foreign Service. If so, what is the position of officers stationed in countries overseas which are not foreign countries—the British possessions and so on? Are they a branch of the Foreign Service? I do not quite know what the position is.
  In any event, the Commercial Diplomatic Service is composed of a comparatively small number of officials; it is in fact almost self-contained. It is only loosely attached to, even if nominally a part of, the Foreign Service. That in itself is had, and it is especially bad because so small a body of officers has very little chance of promotion to the higher ranks of the Foreign Service. Not being direct servants of the Foreign Office, they will

  63
  have only a very slight opportunity of attaining the higher posts in the Diplomatic Service and in the Consular Service. I feel, therefore, that if the Department of Overseas Trade remains in its present position it is unlikely to attract men of first-class ability, and surely we need the services of such men in such a capacity after the war if we are, as was stated in the debate and in the most gracious Speech yesterday, to expand our export trade. I consider that to be essential. For these reasons I hope that the Government will give very careful consideration to the proposals put forward by the noble Viscount, because I think that they are based on two main principles—namely, the principle of sound administration and the principle of equal opportunity to the officers concerned.
  2.46 p.m.
  THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, the concluding words of the speech of my noble friend Lord Perth were that he hoped that the Government would give very careful consideration to the matters brought forward by the noble Viscount. I venture to echo ,that, but I hope that my noble friend Lord Listowel—whom I congratulate, because I think that this is the first time that he has replied for the Government to a Motion in your Lordships' House—will not give a definite decision. I do not think that a definite decision on this subject can be given now; we must wait until the war is over and see how we stand then. It must be perfectly clear to everybody, however, that in comparatively recent times the whole question of our relations with foreign countries and the importance of commercial, industrial and financial affairs in regard thereto, has very greatly altered, compared with what it was when I first joined the Department. Political considerations are still of the greatest importance, but they have become so much intertwined with commercial and industrial matters that one cannot but consider the question as a whole.
  I think perhaps it may be useful to recall the various arrangements which have been made in the last forty years or more in regard to the conduct of commercial and industrial affairs where they are interlocked with our foreign policy, and how they have been dealt with by
  64
  the Foreign Office and by the Government. When I entered the Service rather more than forty-three years ago, commercial matters were dealt with by the Commercial Department of the Foreign Office; and, although that Department has disappeared, I think that both my noble friend Lord Perth and my noble friend Lord Elibank have said that they wished to see the same kind of system brought back again. The Commercial Department of the Foreign Office, when I first joined it, was under the Parliamentary Under-Secretary, and I gather from the noble Viscount that that is a state of affairs which he would like to see resuscitated, or at any rate he would wish the same example to be followed.
  At first sight it might seem that the supervision of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary was an attractive proposal; but, speaking only from my own very limited experience, I am a little doubtful whether there are not certain objections to having a Minister of the Crown as the superintending officer of a Department. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary, and even more the new Minister proposed by the noble Viscount, would stand on the threshold of the Cabinet, and it would be only natural that he should expect to be translated to higher office in due course; and that due course might, and probably would, be a short one. In addition to that, a change of Government would mean that the Minister in charge would be changed, so that there would be a more or less constant change in the superintending official who would look after the Department, and this, I think, would not really be an advantage. It would be much better to have a man who would be there for some years and who would have had long experience and knowledge from the point of view of an official rather than to have a Parliamentarian who may not always be available (although the noble Viscount has qualified the kind of person he wishes to sec placed there) and who at any rate would be fairly frequently changed. I believe that the superintending Under-Secretary, or whatever you like to call him, to the new Commercial Department should be somebody who has long experience and knowledge of what has gone before.
  As I say, when I joined the Service many years ago the control of commercial

  65
  affairs was under the Commercial Department, superintended by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary, and that went on for a considerable number of years; but about 1912, I think, the change was made and the head of the Commercial Department, who was then a senior clerk, was promoted to be Controller of Consular and Commercial Affairs and given the same pay as an Assistant Under-Secretary. I think that was a very good change indeed, because not only did it give the Commercial Department an additional status but also it put it in much closer touch with the Consular officials, who of course in those days dealt mainly from their own point of view with trade concerns. Therefore this additional rank given to the head of the Commercial Department was, I think, a useful change.
  There is one other point to be noted about the control of commercial affairs. That is that we know now, as I have already mentioned, that commercial and economic policy is becoming more and more intertwined with political affairs than it was perhaps in the past. I think that in constituting such a new Department one must see that adequate provision is made for the consideration of the political importance of commercial matters. You do not want to see an intperium in imperio in the Commercial Department of the Foreign Office. The interrelation would have to be carefully considered, and I hope that that matter will be adequately dealt with. I have mentioned the arrangements that existed until the beginning of the war. Then a Very great change was made, the Directorship of Overseas Trade was started, and that is going on still. I am inclined to agree with both noble Lords who have spoken that it is not a satisfactory arrangement for the reasons which they stated—namely, that to have two authorities controlling the Department is bound to be unsatisfactory. I would reinforce that opinion by saying that, as your Lordships have admitted, and as indeed is admitted everywhere, the importance of our commercial and industrial relations in regard to foreign affairs has grown enormously. For that reason I think it is absolutely essential that the control of that Department should be in the hands of the Foreign Secretary. After all, the Foreign Secretary is, after the Prime Minister, the
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  most important Minister in the Government, because he controls our most vital affairs. Therefore anything which concerns his office must be under his responsibility.
  I entirely agree with what has been said in regard to the undesirability of dual control over the Overseas Trade Department. Perhaps I might, with great respect, offer a slight illustration of what I mean. Some years ago I had the honour of being appointed as delegate at Geneva to the Arms Traffic Conference, and I had with me various colleagues representing the Service Departments and the Board of Trade. That Conference was very largely concerned with matters appertaining to the Board of Trade, who, of course, were deeply interested. But the sole responsible official was the Foreign Office representative, and that is as it ought to be. We all worked together, but I reported to the Foreign Office, and I think that that is the right system. I do not think the Board of Trade should be responsible, and if the Foreign Office make mistakes it is they who must bear the blame. Therefore I entirely agree with my noble friend who has spoken in thinking that the Overseas Trade Department requires careful overhauling, and that the responsibility for all the matters which affect our foreign relations should be on the shoulders of the Foreign Secretary, subject of course to the Cabinet.
  2.54 P.m.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I must start by apologizing to the House for the fact that I was not here at the opening of the debate, so that I had not the advantage of hearing the beginning of the remarks of the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank. I had an official engagement, but though I made arrangements which I hoped would bring me here in time, in these matters man proposes and London traffic too often disposes. I am replying this afternoon on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, who had originally, as I think the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, knows, intended to be present himself. He has, very much to his own regret, been prevented by important public business, which he could not postpone or depute to someone else, from replying in person to the noble Viscount's Motion.

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  The noble Viscount has based his extremely interesting and valuable suggestions on the importance of reviving our export trade at the earliest possible moment after the war. Speaking for His Majesty's Government, I fully share his view that the maintenance and improvement of standards of life in this country will depend upon our exports. Indeed, your Lordships will have observed that our Ambassador in the United States said only a few days ago that our exports will decide whether we are able to eat and work. We also agree with the noble Viscount that the machinery of Government should be so organized and adapted as to serve this vital purpose. I think there is very general agreement nowadays, which will be shared in all quarters of this House—and there are many noble Lords who have had experience of the Foreign Office or of diplomacy—that diplomatic and commercial matters cannot be kept in watertight compartments. In the White Paper, to which the noble Viscount refers in his Motion, the Foreign Secretary has clearly stated, as one of the considerations underlying his reforms, that "economics and finance have become inextricably interwoven in politics." I do not (think that anyone would contest this statement or deny that the Foreign Service of the future should be properly equipped to deal with the economic as well as the strictly political aspects of diplomacy. One of the major tasks of our diplomacy after the war will certainly be the promotion of the export trade of the United Kingdom. And one of the principal objects of Mr. Eden's reforms has been to encourage the future diplomat to fit himself for the work of commercial diplomacy.
  In the future Service the pure diplomatist, unsullied by any taint of commercial knowledge, will no longer exist. In fact, he has not existed in practice for a good long time. It is far from the case, as I think has been suggested, that the Foreign Office has become something like a Post Office for the Department of Overseas Trade. This is one good reason for the amalgamation of the Diplomatic Service in the Foreign Office with the Consular Service and the Commercial Diplomatic Service, a far reaching organizational change which since May of last year—eighteen months ago—has been an accomplished fact.
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  While there is no clear line of demarcation between diplomacy and events in commerce or business, there is surely a very sharp distinction between commercial intelligence, which is relevant to the work of the Department of Overseas Trade, and economic intelligence, such as was collected by the Enemy Branch of the Ministry of Economic Warfare, lately transferred to the control of the Foreign Office. Commercial Intelligence is designed to collect and disseminate information which will assist our manufacturers and exporters to find a market for their goods and to help them so far as possible to expand the volume of their exports to existing markets. The Department of Overseas Trade, in order to serve exporters, must have a first-hand knowledge of the organization of our exporting industries, of their efficiency and ability to export and of the different marketing methods which they employ. By close and regular contact, such as already has existed for a number of years with trade associations, export groups and individual business firms, the Department of Overseas Trade has in fact already acquired a vast fund of information on these subjects. This Department must also—a fact that has been emphasized this afternoon—be able to obtain regular reports from markets overseas of opportunities for export, about suitable agents to handle products of particular firms, about the competitive power of local industries—the industries on the spot—and about the import duties which, in many cases (and I fear this will be one of the obstacles after the war) have to be shouldered by United Kingdom exporters.
  Now the Department collects this vital information about foreign markets through the officers of the Commercial Diplomatic and Consular Services which are now branches of the Foreign Service, and through the Trade Commissioners in the Dominions. The first duty—and your Lordships will notice this priority, which I emphasize—the first duty of the Commercial Diplomatic officers is to report direct to the Department of Overseas Trade, and they will not, as I think was stated by the noble Viscount, be attached to the Economic Intelligence Department of the Foreign Office. The Department of Overseas Trade naturally keeps in close touch with the Foreign Office and the Board of Trade, its parent Departments, as well as with such

  69
  external Departments as the Dominions Office and the Colonial Office. Many problems relating to our exports can only be solved by inter-departmental discussion, and the Departments most frequently concerned in these discussions are the Foreign Office, Board of Trade, and the Treasury. The Foreign Office will continue to confer with the Department of Overseas Trade, with the Board of Trade and with any other Department involved when our exports raise questions of trade policy as well as of political relations with foreign countries. The Department of Overseas Trade, with its intimate knowledge of day-to-day trading with foreign nations and Empire countries, should be able to contribute most usefully to discussions where politico-economic questions are at issue.
  But the Foreign Office has felt the need of having within its own organization—within its own four walls—a section that will concentrate its attention on the economic aspect of our relations with foreign Powers. It is hoped with the greater mobility of personnel rendered possible by the amalgamation of the Foreign Service, to secure throughout the whole Service, at home and abroad, wider experience and a more vivid interest in the domestic and overseas problems of our export trade. As one of the fields in Which such experience can be most easily acquired I rank high the two new Departments of the Foreign Office, the existing Economic Relations Department and the projected Economic Intelligence Department. I should like to give one simple illustration of the many different aspects of an ordinary economic event, similar to many others which might occur during the reconstruction period in Europe. The building of a new hydro-electric power station in Austria could affect British interests in a number of ways There is a financial interest if the undertaking is asking for British capital; if German capital is also competing for the business, politics and diplomacy immediately become involved. There is a commercial and exporting interest in supplying the power station with British machinery. There is a further political problem in the effort which Austria may at this future date be making to free herself from dependence on power which has hitherto been generated by German stations beyond the frontier. This is, of course, a purely hypothetical case, but it does show the
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  many economic and political facets of ordinary business events.
  In such a case as this, a typical case, I submit the Department of Overseas Trade has only a limited interest—to make sure that United Kingdom exporters obtain information that a specific contract is on offer and of the terms of the tender. It would naturally be anxious that a competent British firm should compete, because of the prospect of immediate sales of British machinery, of later replacements, and of the possibility of introducing simultaneously allied lines of business such as heating, cooking and lighting appliances. The Department of Overseas Trade is not interested—and this, I think, shows the dividing line between the Department of Overseas Trade and the Foreign Office—in the political issue arising between Germany and Austria or to the extent to which other countries, including Great Britain and in that case possibly also Russia, may be involved in this issue. This is a matter for the Foreign Office; and it is with such questions that the new organization of the Foreign Office is intended to deal. The Economic Relations Department will act as a liaison department inside and outside the Office—inside, to correlate economic questions arising in the different political departments of the Foreign Office, which are of course divided geographically according to the countries with which they deal; and outside it will act as a link between the Foreign Office and other Departments concerned with external economic policy, such as the Treasury, the Board of Trade or the Department of Overseas Trade.
  The Economic Relations Department—and this is another, a second, function—will also be responsible for advising the Secretary of State on the probable political consequences of any action taken in the economic field, and of the probable economic consequence of any action taken in the political field. Their estimate of the political consequences of economic events will be based on a synthesis of the views they will collect from the Foreign Office, and from other Departments of State concerned with the political aspect of economic relations, such as the Dominions Office, the Colonial Office and the India Office. Their estimate of the economic consequences of political happenings will be based on a synthesis of opinions they

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  will gather from the Treasury, the Board of Trade, the Department of Overseas Trade and from other technical, financial, or economic agencies or institutions such as the Bank of England and the Export Credits Guarantee Department. The branch of the Ministry of Economic Warfare lately under the auspices of my noble friend, which has recently been transferred to the Foreign Office, will form the nucleus of a new intelligence organization. The function of this organization will be to sift economic information received from abroad, which it will scrutinize not from a commercial but from a political and a strategic point of view. Our hypothetical power station, if I may refer to it again for a moment, has for instance considerable strategic importance and both the War Office and the Air Ministry would be keenly interested. But the Economic Intelligence Department of the Foreign Office will not collect or distribute commercial intelligence to United Kingdom exporters. This will remain after the war as it is now the responsibility of the Department of Overseas Trade.
  I think your Lordships will agree that the new lay-out of the Foreign Office is a remarkable achievement in war-time. Although, like other Departments, the main preoccupation of its members has necessarily been the conduct of the war, they have nevertheless spared time and energy to put through the most important series of reforms in this Department since the end of the last war. The Foreign Office is sometimes spoken of (not in your Lordships' House but certainly outside), as a last refuge of privilege, where minds are hidebound by tradition and impervious to new ideas, a place to which only the old school tie can gain admittance. But those who make these strictures are those living in the past. For the Foreign Office has responded with that ready adaptability so typical of our British institutions to the challenge of change, and by giving due weight to the economic factor in politics, it is adjusting itself with real youthful flexibility and resilience to the pattern of the modern world.
  I hope that what I have said will have removed some misapprehensions in the noble Viscount's mind about the extent to which His Majesty's Government are conscious of the vital importance of using
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  all the available resources of Government Departments for the promotion of our export trade. I hope too that I have been able to throw further light on the way in which our machinery of Government is, in one sphere at least, keeping abreast of the times, and what I have indicated rather sketchily will show the direction in which it is likely to evolve still further. This machinery is designed primarily to secure the closest possible co-ordination and co-operation between the activities of the Foreign Office and the Board of Trade and of the other Government Departments dealing with economic affairs. Provided this close contact and constant co-operation can be secured there should be no danger from dual control of the Department of Overseas Trade. I think this danger is what was feared by two noble Lords who have taken part in the debate and I hope they may feel that a proper co-ordination between the different Departments concerned will avert the risks inherent in dual control.
  Foreign economic policy is essentially the product of interaction between different and often diverging interests. What is needed is machinery for reconciling these varied claims and for co-ordinating them with other activities of the Government. To isolate the Department of Overseas Trade—and this is what I fear the suggestions we have listened to this afternoon would amount to—by putting it in a new Department under the Foreign Office would not, in my view, secure this object. It is true that the increase of our export trade is one of the principal aims of our foreign policy, but it also has an extremely close connexion with trade and industry in this county and with our commercial relations with the rest of the British Commonwealth. If the Board of Trade had foreign trade removed from their purview—and this is the consideration I would like to ask the noble Viscount if he would be kind enough to entertain—this would merely reduce by so much that effective co-ordination on which the success of our export policy after the war will largely depend. We greatly fear the consequences of isolating the Department of Overseas Trade from the Board of Trade and reducing its present contacts with business inside the country.
  The noble Earl, Lord Perth, was kind enough to give me verbal notice yesterday

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  afternoon that he intended to ask two questions in the course of the debate. The first of these is whether the personnel of the Department of Overseas Trade will serve abroad as well as at home and whether appointments in Whitehall and appointments at Legations and Embassies will be interchangeable, as they are in the case of the Foreign Office. The answer to that question is in the affirmative. That will be the case, and there is no reason why a commercial secretary should not rise to the rank of Minister or Ambassador. They have exactly the same opportunities as members of the Foreign Service and of anyone who is working at the Foreign Office. The second question is whether the personnel of the Department of Overseas Trade will form part of the Foreign Service. The answer to that question is also in the affirmative. It would extend, of course, to the lower grade. The whole of the personnel of that Department will link up with the new Foreign Service.
  3.15 p.m.
  VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, first of all I would add my congratulations to those of the noble Earl who has congratulated Lord Listowel on making his first appearance as Deputy Leader of the House answering in a debate which I regard as of some importance. I feel, however, that on this occasion he has entered into the shoes of his predecessor Lord Snell, who always said that he was put up to reply to unpopular cases and that he was one of the best counsel for the defence in the country. I felt that this afternoon, as I listened to the speech of the noble Earl. I admit that he has made, apparently, a good case in his reply. At the same time I suggest to him, from the point of view of the business man for whom I was speaking, that he made such a complicated case that I feel sure not one of your Lordships who listened to his speech would be able to say clearly and definitely what it meant. I reel that he evaded the principal issue, the question of dual control. I had sent notes of my remarks to the noble Earl and so he knew I was going to raise that question in a serious form, but all through his speech until the very last moment he evaded that issue altogether. I suggest that the question of dual control is still
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  as important after the speech he has made as it was before he made it. Twenty years ago it was a subject of controversy and difficulty, for twenty years it has remained the same and for another twenty years it will go on causing dissatisfaction unless something is done to remove it. Twenty odd years ago a Committee was appointed to consider this question and reported. Personally I do not think it was a very satisfactory report; I think the minority opinion was the best part of it.
  The machinery which has been outlined this afternoon by the noble Earl is so complicated that to whatever extent it may be understood in the Department there is no one outside who would be able to grasp all its implications. I feel that once more this subject has fallen between two stools—the differences of opinion between the Board of Trade and the Foreign Office. That is why in the concluding passages of my speech I ventured to suggest that the War Cabinet should take this question into consideration and not be influenced in any way by Departmental antagonisms or differences or by the vested interests to which my noble friend the Earl of Perth referred. It is a very curious thing that all of us who have had experience of foreign trade and its administration, both outside and inside this country, are of opinion that it should be administered and dealt with as one entity from the Foreign Office. We are only the consumers, if I may put it in that way, but as consumers we know what we like and what we believe we ought to get. I urge the Government not to continue along the lines outlined this afternoon without further investigation. I should like to see another Committee appointed to consider the whole question and see whether we cannot really get a practical solution. As the noble Earl admitted in his speech, and as we have urged, a great deal depends upon our export trade. The revival of our export trade means everything to us—our prosperity, our whole national life. If we are to be dependent on the complicated machinery outlined this afternoon for the revival and expansion of our export trade I feel very despondent about it. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
  Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

  L.C.C. REMAND HOMES INQUIRY.
  3.23 p.m.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH rose to call attention to the fact that the inquiry into the provision and administration of remand homes by the London County Council is to be held in private, and to suggest the desirability of the attendance of the Press in order that the evidence may be reported, subject to safeguards to prevent identification of children concerned such as are required in the juvenile courts under Section 49 of the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933; and further to call attention to the fact that the Secretary of the Committee of Inquiry is shown in the Civil Service List for 1943 as one of the Children's Branch Inspectors of the Home Office, the Department responsible for inspecting and approving the remand homes which are the subject of criticism, and to ask whether this is considered a desirable arrangement.
  The noble Lord said: My Lords, the question standing on the Paper in my name has regard to an inquiry which has been ordered by the Home Secretary and which I believe is likely to open within the course of the next day or two. The matter has therefore a certain urgency. I think most of your Lordships will be aware of what a remand home is, but I would like quite briefly to point out that a remand home has, I think I am right in saying, three classes of inmates. There are, firstly, children alleged to have been guilty of some offence who have been sent there pending inquiry by the magistrate. Secondly, there is a different class of children concerned in what are called "care and protection" cases—children, for instance, who may have been sent there pending some prosecution of the parents. Thirdly, there are children who have been guilty of offences, who perhaps have had more than one chance, who are to be committed by the magistrate to an approved home, and who are sent to a remand home pending arrangements for their transfer to the approved home. The remand homes therefore have as inmates innocent children, children not so innocent, children who are novices in crime, and children who may be called veterans and who are to be sent on to approved schools. Therefore it is very important that careful rules should be observed to
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  keep separate innocent children from novices and veterans in crime, and to keep separate novices and veterans. The homes in the County of London are, of course, provided by the London County Council, and they are inspected and approved by the Home Office.
  I mention that in order to sketch the background of this matter. My first question relates to the fact that the inquiry which has been ordered by the Home Secretary is to be held in private, and I raise that point because prima facie it seems undesirable that an inquiry of this sort should be held in private. One strong reason for observing privacy is the danger that there should be any identification of the children concerned. But I would point out that there is a provision in the Act of Parliament to which I refer in the Notice of my question that the public should not be admitted to juvenile courts but that representatives of the Press should be admitted so that the evidence can be suitably reported subject to safeguards to prevent identification. If it is thought that in this particular case, where one particular home has been referred to and one or more children have been referred to, there would be difficulty in preventing identification, I would suggest that there is no real difficulty. I understand that there have been thousands of children through half a dozen of these remand homes in the last ten years. Quite obviously if the homes were referred to as A, B, C, D, E and F, and the children were referred to by numbers, it would be impossible to identify child 53 from home F or child 175 from home A. Consequently I cannot really believe that there is any need to have the inquiry in private for the protection of the children.
  Having disposed, as I submit, of that objection, I would say that I think a public inquiry in a case of this kind is of the very essence of our democratic system in order that the public may be able to judge the evidence and in order that public anxiety may be allayed by the result of the inquiry. I believe that public anxiety would be better allayed by an inquiry at which evidence was given in public than by an inquiry held behind closed doors, only the report being published. My second question relates to the gentleman who has been appointed secretary of the Committee. Of course I need not tell your Lordships that nothing I say

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  can possibly cast any reflection upon this official or any other. The secretary has been appointed, no doubt, because he is familiar with the work, and, quite clearly, the Committee must have the guidance of some official who knows the ropes. But I do not think it is desirable that the official chosen should be actually a member of the branch of inspectors whose duty it is to inspect these homes. This is clearly a case in which, I submit, Caesar's wife must be above suspicion. In this instance, Caesar's wife is the Home Office, and, here again, it is very important to reassure public opinion, and to ensure that the public should be quite certain that the Home Office is not the accused and the judge and the jury, or has too great an influence, because, after all, the Committee is to be a Committee of inquiry. It is very important that the public should feel quite certain that the inquiry is impartial in every possible way.
  There is a third point, and as I only came across it this morning I was not able to put it on the Paper. But I did my best to give the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack notice by telephoning him immediately to notify him that I was going to raise this question. Reflecting on this matter I recollected what was known as the Hereford case which also concerned a children's court, and in which an inquiry was set up. I had the curiosity to look up what was done in that particular case, for it was also a case where there was a great deal of public anxiety concerning the issues involved. I found that, as required by the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, there was a Resolution by both Houses of Parliament, and as a result the body which was set up had the power to summon witnesses, call for the production of documents and take evidence. In this case, there has been, so far as I know, no Resolution of both Houses of Parliament, but a mere appointment by the Home Secretary. That raises the question in my mind whether the Committee which has been appointed will have power to do these things, summon witnesses, take evidence and so on. It is quite clear that, if they do not have the power, that is another grave defect in the constitution of the Committee, and it will I think give rise to a great deal of public anxiety.
  I cannot help feeling that, in the interests of everybody concerned, in the interests of the official who has been appointed as secretary, of the Department of the Home Office and of the L.C.C., the Government would be well advised to think again, and to make other and better arrangements. Above all, the people who are really concerned, and the people we are thinking about, are the children, the unhappy waifs in these homes, who are only in them—be they innocent or be they not so innocent—because they have not had good homes of their own. I do not think that you often find children who have had good homes finding their way into a remand home, whether it is a home which comes under the L.C.C. or one which comes under some other authority. It is in the service of the children that the whole of this apparatus is set up. And I am quite sure that I shall carry all your Lordships with me when I say that it is the interests of the children which we regard as of paramount importance. I sincerely hope that the noble and learned Viscount will be able to answer my question in a way which will relieve some of the public anxiety which I believe has been created.
  3.33 P.m.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, in the absence of any representative of the Home Office in the House, I will give to my noble friend and to your Lordships the reply which the Government would make to the questions which he has put. Let me first of all say—on my own behalf and, I feel sure, on behalf of everybody in the Government—that in any Court of Justice, or in any tribunal which is analogous to a Court of Justice, there can be no question whatever, under our Constitution and practice, that the proceedings should take place in public. No other method is even tolerable in our Courts of Justice. The only conceivable exception arises when the strongest public interest calls for privacy; as when, for example, the danger of disclosing important details in the course of the trial of a spy in time of war, or something of that sort, makes it absolutely necessary to depart from the rule. But if, of course, you classify this inquiry correctly, it is really an administrative inquiry, of which there are great numbers taking place almost every year in connexion with one Department or another.

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  My noble friend did not happen to mention it, but it is not irrelevant to remind the House that the inquiry is being conducted by Mr. Russell Vick, K.C., and by Miss Curtis. Mr. Vick, if I may be allowed to say so, is known to me and a great many other people as not only a distinguished lawyer but as a very firm-minded and determined personality. With my knowledge of him, I can assure the House that there could hardly be selected anybody in whom one could put more complete confidence that he will, whatever be the trouble, try to get to the bottom of the whole business, and will make an absolutely candid and impartial report. Miss Curtis is a lady who has vast experience connected with children, and is a most admirable second member of such a body of inquiry.
  It constantly happens in connexion with the setting up of an inquiry of this sort—and, as I have said there are a great many of them—that the question has to be decided as a preliminary by the Minister concerned whether the inquiry is going to be given a certain character and authority under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, or not. I happen to have had in my official life quite a considerable experience in having to decide which course should be taken. My noble friend is quite right when he says that the Hereford Inquiry, which some of us well remember, was given the status and authority which that Act offers. You have to have a Resolution of both Houses of Parliament—a much more elaborate proceeding, therefore, authorizing the inquiry—I think authorizing the inquiry being conducted by the person intended. In the Hereford case it was Lord Justice Goddard, now Lord Goddard, who conducted the inquiry. That being done, the Act gives to the tribunal certain special qualifications. In particular, it authorizes the administration of an oath to any witness whom it calls before it, and leaves to those conducting the inquiry the decision whether it should be in public or in private. That is the method that is followed occasionally, but I should doubt if we have an example of it more than once a year, or even as much as that, on the average. But it was done in the Hereford case and there are one or two earlier cases that I remember.
  But the more usual course which is adopted—and it is a course which in very
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  many cases has been recognized to produce excellent results—is the simpler course of the Department concerned appointing a person or persons to conduct the inquiry. The names are usually announced in advance. Those persons undertake that duty and make a report which in most cases—it will certainly be so in this case—is a published report. That report does not give merely the conclusions of those who inquire into the matter, but makes proper reference to the evidence, and sometimes even reproduces it. That is beyond all question the course which is usually followed. His Majesty's Government came to the conclusion in this instance that on the whole this second and more usual course was to be preferred.
  I warmly agreed with my noble friend when he asserted that the interests of the girls—some quite young, and some older, and almost young women; some of them, I am afraid, with not at all a good record, but others, I hope and believe, quite innocent—are the first consideration. Of course they are. It would be possible, although it is most unusual in the case of these Departmental inquiries, to have the inquiry in public. I have here a list, kindly provided for me by the Home Office, giving details of inquiry after inquiry in that Department alone in which I think almost without exception the inquiry has been in private. No doubt it could be provided that this inquiry should be held in public. I rather doubt whether it would be possible in the case of an inquiry of this sort to say that the Press shall be admitted but not the rest of the public. That was specially provided for by Statute in the case of the sitting of the juvenile courts; Parliament enacted in express terms that in that case the Press should be admitted, and it went on to provide that the Press shall not make any reference to the names of the children. I question whether it would be possible, by a mere edict from the Chairman or from the Home Office, to say "The doors are open in this Departmental inquiry, and the Press may come in, but nobody else." I have no doubt that if the Press gave an undertaking not to publish names they would not publish them, but there would be the greatest objection—would there not?—as I think my noble friend on reflection will agree, to letting the public generally into an inquiry of this sort.

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  Some of these girls, many of whom are quite young, have unhappily fallen into grave trouble in the past. They have been—to use a convenient periphrasis—"no better than they should be." An honest attempt is being made to give them a new start in life. I cannot think that it would be a good thing to let in members of the public, some of them perhaps prurient and inquisitive and uncontrolled, immoral people who, if one of these young girls who in the past has got into trouble is called, might say "I recognize that girl; that is the girl who used to be hanging about outside such-arid-such a public building." I cannot think that that would be a good thing, and; if I may express a personal opinion, it seems to me that the Home Office was right in saying that it would be better for this inquiry not to be in public.
  The inquiry is not likely to be very prolonged, because if Mr. Russell Vick and his colleague set to work they will get through this business very quickly, and I am sure that, having considered the matter, they will make their report with promptitude. The report will be published. I think that that statement has already been made, but I am so sure that I am right in saying that that I give the undertaking that the report shall be published, and published in extenso, so that the public shall know what it contains. But is it really right to say that while ex parte statements are being made day by day, and while, it may be, witnesses are called to whom very unpleasant questions have to be put—girls; it may be bad girls, but none the less girls—the principles of good government require that this inquiry should be in public? I must say that I do not agree.
  That was the conclusion to which the Home Secretary came, and I hope that my noble friend, whose desire for the public good in this matter I most warmly recognize, will weigh those considerations, which I believe are some of the considerations which led to this decision. It would have taken a little longer, no doubt, to get a Resolution through both Houses for an inquiry, although I do not suppose for a moment that it would have been opposed; but the cases in which there have been inquiries on some specific point, especially by the Home Office, the inside of which I know something about, which have been dealt with by appointing a
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  thoroughly responsible person and announcing the name in public, and following that in due course by the publication of the report, have been very numerous.
  My noble friend takes a further point, and it is a point which, when one hears it stated, impresses one, on the general principles of good government, as a point well worth thinking over. The civil servant who has been appointed to be the secretary of this inquiry is, I understand, one of the Children's Branch Inspectors of the Home Office. My noble friend will be the very last to seek to make a merely captious point, and I quite see the force of the suggestion, which is that this is a remand home which the Home Office inspects, and the secretary of the inquiry is to be a civil servant who comes not only from the Home Office but from that branch of the Home Office which is concerned. That is a perfectly fair point to raise.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: He may have inspected that very home.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Well, he has not. Whatever you may think of the Government, they do not do that! The real answer is this. It does not matter how well chosen the Chairman is; he must have, if he is going to do his work thoroughly, the services of a secretary who is under his direction and is completely subordinate to him, but who not only has a general knowledge of what the inquiry is about, but who really knows the machinery and where to get information about this point, and what is the class of inquiry to be made about that one. When the, Home Office arranged for an inquiry, as it did quite recently, about a particular incident in the Police Force, the person appointed as the secretary came from that branch of the Home Office which has to do with the police. It is a fallacy to suppose that everybody in the Civil Service knows everything; it is even a fallacy to suppose that everybody in a particular Department of State knows everything in that Department. And if I were to choose any Department which is so diversified and broken up into different sections of administration, it would be the Home Office. It would obviously be of no advantage at all if the secretary were not a person who was able to tell the President, "Those are the people whom you are seeking for, and that is the section of such-and-such a public administration

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  in which you will find the sort of person for whom you are asking."
  The secretary has nothing to do with choosing witnesses. The direction in that matter is given by the President of the tribunal, and the evidence may be offered from all suitable and authoritative sources so far as is possible. The secretary is a completely subordinate official and, if I may be allowed to say so, I never conceived him to be anything else. I am sure that, as my noble friend himself said, nobody has the slightest suspicion that this particular gentleman, whoever he is, is not going to discharge his duty with most complete candour and honesty. But, as a practical matter, if you want to get a thing investigated, well, there would be something to be said after all, even if you were inquiring into the morals of Cleopatra, for getting the help of a member of the household who knows how and when Cleopatra carries on. I have given an answer, and those are the considerations, as I understand them, which actuated the Home Secretary in coming to his conclusion; and while I recognize that my noble friend has raised points of administration of public interest, to which he is well entitled to ask for an answer, I hope he will feel that the answer has not been entirely eristic, but that it does contain some solid substance.
  LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I can only speak again by leave of the House, and I do so because I want to make a suggestion. I recognize that my noble and learned friend has given an answer which deserves very serious consideration, but I want to put this point to my noble and learned friend. He has made it quite clear that this decision is a matter of weighing advantages and disadvantages. I accept that entirely; I also accept entirely, of course, his description of the strong and impartial nature of the tribunal, and I notice that he described Mr. Russell Vick as a learned and determined personality who no doubt would be an experienced chairman. Would my noble friend not consider whether the Home Secretary could not give discretion to the chairman to let this inquiry be held to some extent in public or entirely in public, if he in his discretion, weighing the advantages and disadvantages, comes to the conclusion that that might be a good course? Would he consider that as a possibility?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will very gladly communicate that suggestion to my colleague the Home Secretary.
  House adjourned at ten minutes before four o'clock.