Sitting of 8 November 1944

Preamble
The House met at Eleven o'Clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  FINLAND (BRITISH REPRESENTATION)
  Captain Duncanasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what diplomatic representation His Majesty's Government now has at Helsinki.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): Diplomatic relations with Finland have not been resumed, but Mr. F. M. Shepherd has been appointed British Political Representative in Finland.
  Captain Duncan: Will my right hon. Friend see that a commerical attaché gets to Helsinki as soon as possible, in view of the urgent need for timber for housing, which Finland can supply, and also in view of the fact that the reparations in kind that Finland has to pay to Russia will take an enormous part of the exportable surplus of timber?
  Mr. Eden: I should be glad if my hon. and gallant Friend will put that question down, but I can tell him that the question of timber supplies to us from Finland has already been taken up by us in Finland.
  Mr. Shinwell: Can we have some assurance that, both as regards Helsinki and other places that are accessible to us, we shall appoint commercial attachés as soon as possible?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir; I think that there is a commercial attaché there already, and I know that either he or Mr. Shepherd has taken up this question.

  PRISONERS OF WAR

    Exchange
    Major-General Sir Alfred Knoxasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any reply has been received from the German Government to the proposals for the repatriation or transfer to a neutral country of prisoners of war who have been long in captivity.
    Mr. Eden: I regret that I am unable to add to the reply given on 11th October to my hon. Friend the Member for Central Bristol (Lady Apsley).
    Sir A. Knox: Is there any possible means of pushing this matter, as many of these men have been confined in Germany for four and a half years?
    Mr. Eden: I share my hon. and gallant Friend's feelings. We put what we thought was a very reasonable proposition to the German Government, and we have done all we can to secure its acceptance—I am afraid without success. We are now examining whether there is any alternative proposal we can put forward which might have a better chance of acceptance, and if we find one we shall forward it through the Protecting Power. We shall certainly try all we can.
    Professor Savory: Will the right hon. Gentleman press for special consideration for doctors and men of the R.A.M.C. who, in accordance with the Geneva Convention, should be repatriated?

    Far East (Telegrams)
    Flight-Lieutenant Teelingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether telegrams from prisoners in Japanese hands are now being received; and whether he has any statement to make on how the arrangements are working or how many are coming through.
    Mr. Eden: Notification of acceptance of this proposal was sent through the Red Cross in September. No telegrams have yet been received from prisoners of war or civilian internees in the Far East. I will notify the House as soon as such begin to be received.

    Mail Service to Germany
    Sir A. Knoxasked the Postmaster-General what steps are being taken to speed up the prisoner of war mail service to Germany; and whether it is impossible to establish an air-mail service to Switzerland direct.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Robert Grimston): I am glad to say that means have been found to speed up the prisoner of war mail service to Germany and I much hope that an improvement will shortly become apparent.
    Sir A. Knox: Is there any chance of a direct air-mail service to Switzerland?
    Mr. Grimston: Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend would put that question down to the Secretary of State for Air.

  FOREIGN SERVICE (DISABLED EX-SERVICE MEN)
  Major Mott-Radclyffeasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many members of the fighting services invalided from wounds or other disabilities during this war are now employed, temporarily or otherwise, in the Foreign Service.
  Mr. Eden: Without counting regular members of the Foreign Service who have been or are in process of being invalided, 14 men invalided from the fighting Services have been recruited in this country on a temporary basis for the senior branch of the Foreign Service.

  AUSTRIA (UNITED NATIONS POLICY)
  Captain Alan Grahamasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will assure the House that His Majesty's Government does not support the policy of the Czecho-Slovak State Council, as expressed by their vice-president, that the precondition of future collaboration between Austria and other nations is that the Austrians should not deny their anschluss with Germany, contrary to the policy of the United Nations in continually urging Austria to rise against German Nazi tyranny.
  Mr. Eden: I have made inquiries, but have been unable to obtain any confirmation of the statement referred to by my honourable and gallant Friend. The policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to Austria remains as set out in the Declaration on Austria issued at the Moscow Conference in November, 1943.
  Captain Grahamasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Atlantic Charter applies to Austria: and
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  whether consequently His Majesty's Government will disavow governments of allied nations which proclaim their intentions to permit or forbid governments other than Fascist or Nazi to function in liberated Austria.
  Mr. Eden: I am not clear what my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind nor do I know to what statements by Allied Governments my hon. and gallant Friend refers. As I have stated the policy of His Majesty's Government towards Austria remains as defined in the declaration issued by the Conference in Moscow on the 1st November, 1943.

  DIPLOMATIC PRIVILEGES (U.N.R.R.A. EMPLOYEES)
  Mr. Manningham-Bullerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he intends to repeal the provisions of Sections 3 and 4 of the Diplomatic Privileges Act, 1708, so that the penalties in these sections shall not apply to proceedings against employees of U.N.R.R.A. who may be granted diplomatic privileges.
  Mr. Eden: No, Sir.
  Mr. Manningham-Buller: Does not my right hon Friend consider it desirable that persons and solicitors proceeding against employees of U.N.R.R.A. who are accorded diplomatic privilege, should cease to be regarded as "violators of the law of nations" and "disturbers of the public repose," and liable to "pains, penalties and corporal punishment"?
  Mr. Eden: I do not think that quite arose out of these Sections. As I understand it, the Preamble to the Act refers to
  "several turbulent and disorderly persons insulted in an outrageous manner the Ambassador of His Tzarish Majesty, taking him by violence out of his coach in the public street and detaining him in custody for several hours contrary to the law of nations and the rights and privileges which ambassadors and public ministers have at all times possessed."
  I am not apprehensive that that will happen again.
  Mr. Manningham-Buller: May I ask my right hon. Friend to look at Sections 3 and 4 of that Act, which are still in force, and which say that solicitors and others shall be liable to corporal punishment?
  An Hon. Member: Jolly good.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Food Regulations (Offences)
    Mr. Austin Hopkinsonasked the Secretary of State for Air whether the inquiry into food offences in No. 54 Group, Training Command, R.A.F., showed that the offences were known to Air-Commodore Critchley, then commanding the group, Group-Captain Wilson, chief air staff officer to the above, and Group-Captain Gilligan, commanding the unit.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): It was widely known to these and other officers on and outside the station that unrationed food produced at the farms which were run in connection with the Aircrew Reception Centre at Regents Park was distributed to outside customers. It was not realised that this was a breach of the Food Regulations. The responsibilities of the officers concerned were carefully reviewed, and disciplinary action has been taken against those who were directly responsible for the irregularities which occurred.
    Mr. Hopkinson: Are we to understand that the commanding officer of the unit and the chief air staff officer of the group were absolutely innocent parties and that no steps could be taken against them?
    Sir A. Sinclair: No, Sir.
    Mr. Pickthorn: If it was not realised, can my right hon. Friend tell us by whom it was not realised?
    Sir A. Sinclair: It was not realised generally. I explained, when it was debated a fortnight ago, that there was a deplorable failure to bring to the notice of those responsible the meaning of the regulations.
    Mr. Hopkinson: Why, then, were steps taken to conceal the transactions?
    Sir A. Sinclair: No, Sir.
    Mr. Hopkinsonasked the Secretary of State for Air at what approximate date the Treasury Solicitor was requested to advise the Commander-in-Chief, Training Command, R.A.F., whether a court-martial was warranted in the case of officers guilty of food offences in a unit of 54 Group; why the advice of the Deputy Judge Advocate General of the R.A.F. was not deemed sufficient in
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    a case involving no obscure legal point: and why reference was made to the Treasury Solicitor rather than to the Director of Public Prosecutions when it was found that persons not under military law appeared to be guilty of these offences.
    Sir A. Sinclair: The summary of evidence was sent to the Treasury Solicitor in June last. I have already explained to the House in the Debate on the Adjournment on 27th October why the Treasury Solicitor was consulted by the Royal Air Force Deputy to the Judge Advocate General. The Director of Public Prosecutions does not normally deal with offences against food regulations. The Ministry of Food has, I understand, its own enforcement organisation and a branch of the Treasury Solicitor's office is attached to the Ministry of Food. This branch undertakes prosecutions for that Ministry.
    Mr. Hopkinson: Seeing that the summary of evidence was completed long before June, why was there this delay in handing it over to the Treasury Solicitor for his opinion; and, secondly, the Food Ministry through its legal department, having disclaimed any responsibility in the matter by handing it over to the commanding officer of the training command, why—
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is giving information and not asking a question.
    Mr. Hopkinson: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Officer (Release)
    Mr. Hopkinsonasked the Secretary of State for Air what was the public interest served by permitting Wing-Commander Herbert Meredith to undertake the duties of managing director of Messrs. Philip Hill Investment Trust and Philip Hill and Partners; and why this officer was allowed to resign his commission during hostilities in order to do so.
    Sir A. Sinclair: The employers of this officer applied for his release from the R.A.F. because his services were urgently needed in connection with their post-war industrial activities, in particular those concerning employment and export trade. The Treasury were consulted and sup-

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    ported the application, and as the officer was approaching his sixtieth birthday he was allowed to resign his commission.
    Mr. Hopkinson: Are we to understand that the activities of Messrs. Philip Hill Investment Trust and Philip Hill and Partners are of such national importance that an officer can be released from the Service to undertake these duties?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I imagine that that is why the Treasury tendered to me the advice which it did. Perhaps it would be more appropriate for the hon. Member to address that question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I can say, however, that if any officer who is 60 years of age wishes to obtain his release I shall gladly agree to it.
    Mr. A. Edwards: Will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence to see that the same energy is expended on the production side of industry, to release men who are necessary?

    Bombers (Armament)
    Mr. Ralph Ethertonasked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in view of the fact that the enemy are now preparing the Luftwaffe for the defence of Germany on a much more formidable scale than hitherto, he is satisfied that adequate steps are being taken to prepare our heavy bombers to meet this threat by equipping them with heavier armaments.
    Sir A. Sinclair: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Etherton: Will the right hon. Gentleman give separate consideration to this matter to ensure that representations on the question of heavier armaments from those with operational experience in the R.A.F. are adequately considered?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I do not think that my hon. Friend can have any idea of the constant consideration which is given to every aspect of this problem.

    Disabled Personnel (Discharge)
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Ian Fraserasked the Secretary of State for Air if he will lengthen substantially the time during which disabled officers and men may remain in the Service so that they may enjoy the pay and status thus afforded and continue to wear uniform, thus minimising the invidious distinction be-
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    tween serving men and discharged men who are in the same hospital at the same time.
    Sir A. Sinclair: This is being examined, but I must warn my hon. and gallant Friend that his proposal involves many difficult problems.
    Sir I. Fraser: Is my right hon, Friend aware that there are—particularly in his Service, but, of course, in all Services—a number of most grievously wounded men who have facial injuries and burns, and that it is not just sentimental to say that the act of putting them out of the Service in the middle of their recovery of health, has a profound and undesirable psychological effect upon them? Will my right hon. Friend concert with other war Ministers to see whether they can extend this time to cover the majority of those cases, and thus help their recovery?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I do assure my hon. and gallant Friend that I entirely share his feelings, and I am glad that they have been expressed. That is why this question is now under examination.

    Flying Bombs (Air-Launched Attacks)
    Sir Oliver Simmondsasked the Secretary of State for Air the number of enemy aircraft engaged in launching flying bombs against this country which have been shot down; and the number of flying bombs which they are estimated to have launched.
    Sir A. Sinclair: I regret that it would not be in the public interest to give this information.
    Sir O. Simmonds: In view of the fact that from day to day these figures are announced, what possible objection can there be to giving the cumulative results so far obtained?
    Sir A. Sinclair: My hon. Friend may not have observed that these figures are not being announced now from day to day. If these figures were given, the information would, I am definitely of the opinion, give help to the enemy.

  GOLD COAST (CONSTITUTION)
  Captain Duncanasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any representatives of interests other than African were consulted when the recently

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  published proposals for constitutional reform on the Gold Coast were discussed.
  Colonel Oliver Stanley: I am asking the Governor for information on this point.
  Captain Duncan: Is it not advisable that the large British interests should be consulted?
  Colonel Stanley: My hon. Friend will realise that the main changes were in the African representation.

  COLONIAL EMPIRE

    Annual Reports
    Captain Duncanasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will instruct Colonial Governments that, when conditions make it possible to resume publication of Colonial Annual Reports, the first reports published should contain a short history of the events, progress and developments which have taken place since the publication of reports was suspended.
    Colonel Stanley: I am obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend for his suggestion, which I will certainly bear in mind when it is decided that the publication of these reports can be resumed.

    Broadcasting Policy
    Captain Gammansasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when he expects to be able to make a statement on post-war policy regarding broadcasting in the Colonial Empire.
    Colonel Stanley: The matter is receiving active attention but I cannot at present say when I shall be in a position to make any statement about it.
    Captain Gammans: Does my right hon. and gallant Friend not feel that, in view of the fact that broadcasting generally to the Colonial Empire is so bad, an expert committee ought to be appointed to make recommendations?
    Colonel Stanley: Of course, this is bound up with the whole future of broadcasting in the Empire after the war, and in the consideration of that matter I am getting great help from the experts of the B.B.C.
    Dr. Morgan: Will not the right hon. and gallant Friend recognise that there is really a disgraceful handling of Empire and Colonial broadcasting from the B.B.C. at the present time?
    Colonel Stanley: No, Sir, I would not admit that for a moment.

    Civil Service Pensions (Increases)
    Captain Gammansasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when he expects to be able to make a statement regarding increases in pensions of retired colonial civil servants to meet the increased cost of living.
    Colonel Stanley: A number of Colonial Governments have decided to grant allowances to their pensioners resident in the United Kingdom and Eire on a basis similar to the scheme prescribed by Section I of the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1944. Forms of application for the increases, together with a leaflet explaining the conditions of award, will be issued to pensioners concerned as soon as possible. Certain Colonial Governments have decided to award increases at different rates and the pensioners concerned are being informed separately. I am circulating with the OFFICIAL REPORT lists of the Colonial Governments to which this reply refers.
    Captain Gammans: Does that mean that pensioners under some of the Governments will get no increase at all?
    Colonel Stanley: No, Sir. I think my hon. and gallant Friend will see if he reads my answer that that is not so.
    Following are the lists:
    1. The following Governments have agreed to give temporary increases to the pensioners living in this country on the same basis as Section 1 of the Pensions (Increase) Acts and have stated that the scheme may be put into effect:
    Aden, British Somaliland, Cyprus, Falkland Islands, Fiji and Western Pacific, Gambia, Gibraltar, Gold Coast, Leeward Islands, Kenya, Nigeria, Northern Rhodesia, Nyasaland, Palestine and Trans-Jordan, St Helena, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Tanganyika Territory, Uganda, Zanzibar.
    2. The same arrangements will be applied to Malaya and Hong Kong pensioners.
    3. The following Governments have decided to award increases at the rates applicable to local pensioners. These rates are generally lower than those of the United Kingdom scheme.
    British Honduras, Jamaica, Mauritius, Trinidad.

  TRINIDAD (MEDICAL SERVICES)
  Mr. Rileyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the recent public agitation in Trinidad for increased medical services; and whether any application has reached him from Trinidad for assistance to promote improved medical services.
  Colonel Stanley: In response to a resolution passed by the Legislative Council in June last, a committee, under the chairmanship of Sir Alexander Russell, was set up to review the medical and health position of the Colony, to consider the reorganisation of the administration of the medical and health services, and to make recommendations. My latest information is that this committee is expected to report shortly. The answer to the last part of the Question is in the negative.
  Dr. Morgan: Were any representations trade from this country? When does the ight hon. and gallant Gentleman propose to receive a deputation on the matter?
  Colonel Stanley: Perhaps my hon. Friend would put that question on the Paper.
  Mr. Riley: Is there any intention of giving assistance from the Colonial Welfare Fund?
  Colonel Stanley: The hon. Member must be aware that Trinidad has, up to now, made no application for assistance from His Majesty's Government.

  JAMAICA (HOUSING CONDITIONS)
  Mr. Rileyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the public meetings which have recently been held in the western part of Kingston, Jamaica, complaining of the deplorable local housing conditions and the shortage of houses, and asking that a substantial grant should be made from the Colonial Development and
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  Welfare Fund to deal with the problem; and what action is being taken.
  Colonel Stanley: My attention had not been called to these meetings, but I am aware of the urgent necessity of improving housing conditions in Jamaica. I am prepared to make assistance available under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act for housing to the extent of a proportion of the cost as a free grant and of the balance as an interest bearing loan if the loan portion cannot be raised locally. Expenditure of £100,000, to be treated as a free grant, has already been authorised, and further substantial expenditure is contemplated.

  RAILWAY TRAINS (PASSENGER ACCOMMODATION)
  Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport if he will arrange for railway servants to give priority in service to women with children under five years of age, invalids, injured Service men and women; and that they shall have seats reserved for them on long distance trains.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker): I have every sympathy with my hon. Friend's desire to reduce the hardships of railway travel for women with young children, invalids and injured Service men and women. As I hope my hon. Friend will agree, the railway staff already do whatever they can to help those passengers who appear to need their help most, and I doubt, therefore, if any formal instruction is required. The railway companies already have authority to reserve seats for invalids and disabled ex-Servicemen and women who produce a medical certificate.
  Mr. Smith: Seeing that we have been fighting to preserve democracy, should not a few instalments of democracy of the kind suggested in the Question be adopted in this case; and, in view of the fact that porters look for substantial tips, will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his decision, in order that an instruction of this kind may be given?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: With all respect to my hon. Friend I must say that I think that the railway staff are very good in this matter, and if there are exceptions I

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  do not think that they would be put right by formal instructions.
  Mr. Smith: If my hon. Friend would make observations at any railway station, I think he would find that he has been wrongly informed in regard to this matter.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I have often done so.
  Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport the number of seats that are available on the average on the Manchester-Euston 9·52 a.m and 2·15 p.m. trains when they arrive at Stoke-on-Trent; and can he arrange for additional coaches to be put on at this station when required.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: During the last week in October, the average numbers of seats available on the 9·52 from Manchester When it arrived at Stoke-on-Trent were as follow: First class 31; Third class 80. On its departure, the average numbers were 11 and 17. I regret that I cannot give my hon. Friend any comparable figures for the 2.15 p.m. from Manchester. On certain days when the traffic is particularly heavy, however, a relief train is run, which leaves Manchester at 2 o'clock. I regret that additional coaches could not be added to either train at Stoke, for the reason that both trains are already up to the maximum weight which the locomotives can pull.

  DOMINIONS AND COLONIAL SERVICEMEN'S FAMILIES (REPATRIATION)
  General Sir George Jeffreysasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether, in view of the movement to bring Servicemen who have been overseas for years back to their wives and families in this country, it is possible to make some better arrangements to ship the wives and widows now waiting here back to the Dominions and Colonial countries of their origin, there to rejoin their families.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Owing to the heavy demand on our shipping resources for military needs, only a limited number of berths are available for the transport of the dependants of Servicemen to the
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  Dominions and Colonies. The berths available are allocated by my Department to the High Commissioners for the Dominions and to the Colonial Office, and these authorities decide, in accordance with an agreed system of priorities, to whom the berths shall be given. I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for calling attention to the matter, and I am glad to assure him that every effort will be made to increase the number of berths available in the early future.
  Sir G. Jeffreys: While thanking my hon. Friend for his answer, may I ask whether he is aware that a considerable number of these women are stranded in this country and that some are without means, their husbands having left them here? Will he do all he possibly can to increase the number of berths available for them?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir. When I received my hon. and gallant Friend's Question, I called for the numbers, and they were much larger than I expected.

  EMPTY LORRY JOURNEYS
  Captain Stricklandasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport how many of the 77 road vehicles despatched empty by his Department from London to Gloucester between 15th and 19th October were actually loaded at Gloucester with the fibre board for which they were despatched; and how many went sent away still empty from Gloucester to other destinations.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: My hon. and gallant Friend is in error in thinking that 77 vehicles were sent empty from London to Gloucester by the Road Haulage Organisation between 15th and 19th October; as I informed him last week, a considerable number of them carried loads. As I also informed him last week, some of these vehicles carried urgent and essential traffic for the Armed Forces of the United States. This traffic was part of a most secret movement; for that reason the drivers were told that they were to collect fibre board at Gloucester. In fact, the points at which they collected their loads were all within short distances of that city, Gloucester.
  Captain Strickland: Would my hon. Friend answer that part of my Question which asks how many vehicles left Gloucester empty on that date?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: None of them left empty in the sense that they returned to London or to the other final destinations without their loads. They went on from Gloucester to other points to pick up the loads which they were always intended to carry.
  Captain Strickland: Is the Parliamentary Secretary informing the House that it was necessary to send these empty vehicles to Gloucester to get them back to Chichester?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: This is quite like old times. I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that his case is no better now than it was before. These vehicles were sent at the request of the American Army. It was for the officer of that Army who was in charge to decide whether or not the men should be told where they were going, or what they were to carry. We only did what we were asked to do.

  BROADCASTS TO CHINA
  Flight-Lieutenant Teelingasked the Minister of Information whether our news and information broadcasts and general talks to occupied China are made after consultation with the Chinese Government.
  The Minister of Information (Mr. Brendan Bracken): No such broadcasts are made specifically to occupied China. On general broadcasts to China, contact is maintained with the Chinese Embassy and with the representatives of the Chinese Ministry of Information in London.

  POST OFFICE

    Air Mail Letters, India
    Sir A. Knoxasked the Postmaster-General how long air mail letters are supposed to take to reach India, as 14 letters addressed to an officer there with postmarks dated from 22nd July till 8th September took from 39 to 59 days to reach their destination.
    Mr. R. Grimston: The aircraft capacity available for mails is not sufficient to enable ordinary 1s. 3d. air mail letters for India to be conveyed by air throughout, and this relatively heavy type of correspondence has to be sent by sea to Egypt, where it is transferred to the air route: the time of transmission to the
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    Base in India by this sea-cum-air route has varied recently from 3½ to 6½ weeks. If my hon. and gallant Friend will let me have particulars of the dates of posting and receipt of the letters to which he refers, I shall be happy to have further inquiry made.
    Sir A. Knox: As these letters are not conveyed all the way by air mail, is it not a swindle to demand the fee under false pretences?
    Mr. Grimston: We have often considered that point, but there is a certain acceleration as compared with mail sent by the sea route all the way, and hitherto we have thought it right to give that advantage, for which we charge the. 1s. 3d.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that men serving in India are under the impression that letters can be conveyed all the way by air mail? Is it not necessary, in view of what the hon. Gentleman has said, to correct that impression or, at any rate, make it possible to send those letters by air mail?
    Mr. Grimston: There is an air-mail service all the way by the 6d. air letter or the airgraph. This other service is for letters of such weight as cannot be carried all the way by air.
    Sir A. Knox: Cannot the service be called "partial air service"?

    Mails (Losses)
    Mr. John Dugdaleasked the Postmaster-General how it was that air letters posted on 17th and 18th October for the Forces in S.E.A.C. and for the Forces and civilians in India, Ceylon, Australia and New Zealand were lost through causes other than enemy action.
    Mr. Grimston: I regret to say that the aircraft by which the air letter mails in question were conveyed was involved in an accident abroad and that salvage of the mails was impracticable, but the air-graphs have been rephotographed and forwarded in a subsequent despatch.

  SERVING OFFICER'S HOUSE (REQUISITIONING)
  Mr. Loftusasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works if he will reconsider, the proposal to requisition

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  the home of a serving officer, the name of whom has been communicated to him, for the purpose of housing German and /or Italian prisoners of war, in view of the fact that this house was commandeered and occupied by the Army in 1940 until recently it was derequisitioned and, as the owner who has been engaged the greater part of this period in active service overseas in Africa and Italy against German and Italian Forces, now requires his home for his wife and family of five young children.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Hicks): It is understood that the owner of the house in question does not require it for occupation until next May as he has taken other accommodation. If he then wishes to occupy the house himself, it would be in accordance with the policy of my Noble Friend to release it, even though, unless other premises can be found, there will be a loss of the labour of 150 men on agricultural work in the area.
  Mr. Loftus: Is the hon. Gentleman aware, first, that the officer requires the house for his wife and family, as soon as it can be made habitable? I have written evidence to that effect. Secondly, is he aware that there are hutments in the grounds which were used for British troops for years, and which are now empty? And, thirdly, why was there no interval between derequisitioning by the War Office, and requisitioning by his Department?
  Mr. Hicks: In answer to the first part of the question, my information is that the gentleman has been communicated with, and that he is not desirous of going into the house until after May next year. If he is then desirous of going into the house and living there himself, as against letting it to someone else, my Noble Friend would release it for him to occupy. I am not aware of the huts in the neighbourhood. Perhaps my hon. Friend will let me have further information on that point.
  Mr. Loftus: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that this man is a serving officer and cannot live in the house himself at present, but that his wife and family wish to live in it at once, as soon as it can be made habitable?
  Mr. Hicks: If this officer's wife and family wish to live in it at once, it can be made available for them.
  Sir A. Knox: Surely, an officer serving abroad has some claim for accommodation for his family?

  STANDARD FACTORIES
  Mr. Higgsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works how many standard factories are being erected for post-war production in Great Britain and Northern Ireland; how many are being erected in the mining districts; and from what Vote is he obtaining the necessary funds for this work.
  Mr. Hicks: The programme comprises 18 standard factories of which 14 are to be erected in mining districts. They are intended in the first instance for war-time use and will be available later for postwar use. The expenditure is being borne on the Vote of Credit.
  Mr. Higgs: Should not greater consideration be shown to owners of blitzed factories; and why are the new factories being erected in mining areas, from which for unknown reasons we cannot get sufficient coal?
  Mr. Hicks: The decision to erect the factories is a Government decision.

  MINISTRY OF WORKS STAFF (BIRMINGHAM)
  Mr. Higgsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works if he intends to erect a building to house his Ministry in Birmingham.
  Mr. Hicks: There is no present intention to erect a building to house the Ministry of Works staff in Birmingham.

  BRITISH EMPIRE (HONG KONG)
  Mr. Astorasked the Prime Minister whether Hong Kong or any other part of the Empire is excluded from his declaration that it is not proposed to liquidate the British Empire.
  The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): No part of the British Empire or Commonwealth of Nations is excluded from the scope of the declaration referred to.
  Mr. Astor: While expressing great pleasure that this declaration has come from the Leader of the Labour Party, may I ask him whether all encouragement will now be given to British firms to prepare plans for re-establishing themselves in Hong Kong, and getting on with British export trade in that area?
  Mr. Attlee: That is obviously so.
  Mr. Shinwell: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that Members of the Labour Party are as keen to advance the well-being of the British Empire as are Members of the Tory Party?
  Mr. Sorensen: Could my right hon. Friend say exactly how we acquired this particular part of the world?
  Mr. Attlee: I would refer my hon. Friend to any reasonable book of reference.
  Mr. W. J. Brown: Does my right hon. Friend recognise that whether the Leader of the Labour Party is right or not today, the ex-Leader of the Tory Party very nearly gave the British Empire away for a pound of tea?

  BRITISH INDUSTRIAL METHODS AND EQUIPMENT
  Sir George Schusterasked the Minister of Production whether, having regard to the important facts brought to light by the Report of the Cotton Textile Mission to the U.S.A., he will arrange for similar examinations to be made in regard to other important industries for the purposes of testing British methods, standards of equipment and productivity.
  The Minister of Production (Mr. Lyttelton): Examination of the efficiency of our war-time industries against the background of American experience has been a continuous process. I would point out that the Cotton Textile Mission, whose Report it proved possible to publish, was primarily concerned with the meeting of essential war-time requirements. If my hon. Friend is suggesting that the Missions should be sent out now for peacetime purposes I can assure him that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, and my other colleagues concerned with peace-time industry, will be ready to take any opportunities that may occur of encouraging the formation of such Missions at the appropriate time.
  Sir G. Schuster: Does my right hon. Friend realise that the distinction he has drawn between peace-time purposes and war-time purposes is quite unreal? Is he aware that this Report has come as a great shock to public opinion, and that the public want to know what is to be done about the Report, and the conditions of other industries?
  Mr. Lyttelton: My responsibilities in this matter are concerned with war-time production, and I have already answered that where appropriate occasions arise, we will take the opportunity of sending Missions.
  Mr. Buchanan: Would the Minister kindly give us the answers in the House of Commons, and not keep them for weekend conferences of the Tory Party?
  Mr. Shinwell: Why should the right hon. Gentleman be so diffident in his replies when answering back benchers, and so bold and audacious when he is speaking in the country?
  Mr. A. Edwards: On a point of Order. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that he is not responsible for post-war production, but is it not a fact that no one can build a factory for post-war production without the consent of his Department?
  Mr. Lyttelton: The point I was answering was that I was not responsible primarily for sending Missions on post-war subjects to the United States.
  Sir G. Schuster: In view of the important issues raised in my right hon. Friend's reply, which affect the responsibility of Government Departments, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

  ADVERTISING CIRCULARS (PAPER ALLOCATION)
  Mr. Burkeasked the Minister of Production if he will take steps to curtail the widespread distribution through the post of advertising circulars, which are unnecessary in the present national circumstances and are calculated to induce wasteful expenditure, in order that increased allocations of paper may be given for manufacturing and educational purposes.
  Mr. Lyttelton: No, Sir. I would not feel justified in reducing the quantity of paper available for advertising circulars. The amount is insignificant in relation to manufacturing and educational requirements.
  Mr. Burke: Is the Minister aware that there are organisations in this country which go through the directories, and compile registers of "suckers," whom they circularise regularly, and who can be expected to subscribe to any catchpenny scheme; and that, meanwhile, firms cannot get sufficient paper for brochures to send abroad?
  Mr. Lyttelton: That is quite another question. The total amount of paper used in advertising circulars is so small that if the total allocation was halved it would make a difference of less than one per cent. of the consumption for these other purposes.
  Mr. Burke: If the total is so small, is not that a reason for seeing that it is not wasted on useless circulars?

  INDUSTRIAL RECONVERSION (MINISTERIAL RESPONSIBILITY)
  Sir O. Simmondsasked the Minister of Production to what extent he is responsible for the change-over of production from war to civilian requirements.
  Mr. Lyttelton: My function is to coordinate the work of the production Departments, in order to secure that our war needs are fully and efficiently met. It follows that I have a general responsibility for planning and concerting the release of resources as these can be spared from war production. In so doing I shall, of course, be working in close consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and the Supply Ministers. Our object will be to ensure that resources are released in such a way as to meet, so far as possible, the requirements of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade and the other Ministers who will be responsible for making use of them in civil industry.
  Sir O. Simmonds: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a feeling of grave indecision in this whole matter; and could he give the House any idea of when
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  there will he a coherent policy on the part of His Majesty's Government, which industry can operate, for the benefit of both the morale of the workers and the export trade of the country?
  Mr. Lyttelton: My hon. Friend will realise that there are a number of uncertainties, which I cannot resolve, and that until they are resolved a very precise answer cannot be given. One of the uncertainties is when the war with Hitler will end.
  Mr. A. Edwards: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman help the industrialists? At present the position is that when one applies to the Board of Trade one is sent to another Department. Is it not a fact that the Minister of Production is responsible for allocating materials to people who want to get on with jobs of post-war production?
  Mr. Lyttelton: Raw materials for preparatory work on production and so forth are being released, on application to the Board of Trade. They are not the bottleneck for this type of work.

  STEEL CONTROL
  Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Supply if he can make a full statement on the administration of the Steel Control, giving the names and concerns with which the administrators were or are connected; what is the average cost of steel compared to 1939 prices; how does the average price of steel compare with world prices and U.S.A. prices in particular; and if it is intended to continue the present form of control after the termination of hostilities.
  The Minister of Supply (Sir Andrew Duncan): As the Answer is rather long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Mr. Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that the price of steel has a serious effect on the cost of production in industry, and if so will he have an investigation made into the steel industry?
  Sir A. Duncan: Perhaps my hon. Friend will look at my reply first.
  Mr. A. Edwards: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that British contractors seeking to obtain orders for post-war work abroad are losing contracts for steel to

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  America because America is selling steel £5 a ton cheaper than British steel? How does he propose to deal with that fact?
  Sir A. Duncan: I am not aware of any such case, but perhaps the hon. Member will let me have particulars.
  Mr. Summers: Will it be possible from my right hon. Friend's reply to determine the effect of the increase in the price of coal on steel prices?
  Sir A. Duncan: An increase in the price of coal is obviously an important constituent part of the increase in the price of steel.
  Following is the answer:
  The Iron and Steel Control, like the other Raw Material Controls, is an executive department of the Ministry of Supply, staffed in the main by technical experts. Policy is determined by the Ministry, acting through its Raw Materials Department, to whom the Control acts as an expert adviser. Import programmes, production programmes, expansion schemes and prices must be approved by the Raw Materials Department and, where necessary, the Ministry of Production. The Control is responsible for the day-to-day working-out of policy. The following list gives the names of the Controller and his principal officers, and of the concerns with which they were associated before joining the Control. They, in common with other members of the Control, are temporary civil servants, and are subject to the conditions of service and considerations laid down by the Treasury for this class of case.
  Controller:

  Sir John M. Duncanson—The Steel Company of Scotland.

  Raw Materials Section:

  Deputy Controller—Mr. C. R. Wheeler, Guest, Keen & Baldwins, Ltd.

  Directors:

  Foreign Ore—Mr. D. H. Kyle, Ferguson, Wild & Co., Ltd.

  Pig Iron Electrodes—Mr. N. Goodchild, Stanton Ironworks, Ltd.

  Supplies Section:

  Deputy Controller—Mr. A. G. E. Briggs, English Steel Corporation.

  Assistant Controller—Mr. K. G. Lampson, Dorman Long & Co., Ltd.

  Directors:

  Heavy Steel and Shell Steel—Mr. W. F. Prentice, Dorman Long & Co., Ltd.

  Tinplates and Electrical Stampings—Mr. C. C. Gilbertson, Richard Thomas & Co.. Ltd.

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  Tubes, Pipes and Fittings—Mr. J. N. B. Alexander, Stewarts & Lloyds, Ltd.

  Alloy and Special Steels—Mr. J. S. Ridges, Brown, Bayley & Co., Ltd.

  The changes in prices of individual products vary considerably, but, on the average, the cost of British steel to the consumer has increased since 1939 by about 50 per cent. This increased cost reflects to a considerable extent war-time abnormalities in the cost of freight and materials, and is about 25 per cent. above the average of published U.S.A. prices at the current rate of exchange. There is no general world price for steel at present. The precise form and extent of control must depend upon future circumstances, which cannot at present be wholly foreseen.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Oatmeal
    Mr. T. Hendersonasked the Minister of Food whether his attention has been called to the serious reduction in the output of oatmeal owing to shortage of supplies of oats; and if he will, as an emergency measure, release part of the Ministry's reserve stock of oats, in order that output may be increased and a serious shortage of oatmeal prevented from arising.
    The Minister of Food (Colonel Llewellin): I am importing oat products from Canada in order to meet this difficulty.

    Bread (White Flour)
    Mr. W. H. Greenasked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that the recent Order of his Ministry to millers, reducing the admixture of imported white flour from 12½ per cent. to 5 per cent., and the increase in the usage of home-grown wheat in the grist will more than offset the recently-announced reduction from 85 per cent. to 82½ per cent. in flour extraction from wheat; and if he will take steps to provide the promised whiter loaf.
    Colonel Llewellin: The proportion of imported white flour was purposely lowered from 12½ per cent. to 5 per cent. in order to ease the disposal of the flour which had already been milled at 85 per cent. extraction. The admixture rate has now been raised to 10 per cent., and the

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    home-grown grain forms only 40 per cent. of the grist, as compared to 60 per cent. in some areas last season.
    Mr. Green: Is the Minister aware that consumers of bread are blaming their suppliers for not producing a whiter loaf, because they were led to expect it by his Ministry's statement?
    Colonel Llewellin: I never led anybody to expect that there would quickly be a whiter loaf: I said that it would come gradually. But certainly the bakers and the millers are doing their best in this matter.

    Prosecutions
    Sir John Mellorasked the Minister of Food why a summons was withdrawn in June, 1944, against the Chief Food Enforcement Officer for London, who, as chairman, was nominally responsible for food offences, of which two members of the London Divisional Food Office canteen committee were convicted; and whether in future private traders will be allowed similar immunity from prosecution in cases where subordinates infringe food regulations without their knowledge or consent.
    Colonel Llewellin: This summons was withdrawn by the Westminster Food Control Committee, who had caused it to be issued. I am informed that this was done because it appeared that no criminal charge could have been proved. No question of immunity from prosecution arose.
    Sir J. Mellor: Will my right hon. and gallant Friend be very careful to see that prosecutions are not pressed more harshly against private individuals than they are against public officials?
    Colonel Llewellin: There was no question whatever of that here. In the cases which I believe my hon. Friend is comparing with this case, it has nearly always been a matter of master and servant, or principal and agent, but the common law has never yet gone so far as to say that the chairman or a member of a Committee is responsible criminally for what other members of the Committee may do.
    Sir J. Mellor: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that in a number of cases traders have been prosecuted for offences of which they had no knowledge
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    whatever, and for which they were only nominally responsible?
    Colonel Llewellin: I know that. In some cases it is very necessary to have that power in the background, but I hope that it will not be used unless it is obvious that the servant is really dealing in accordance with the instructions of the master.
    Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Is it not fair to remind the House that many local councillors, aldermen, and the like have been prosecuted for offences by their servants, and that nobody has ever complained about it? I have been prosecuted myself.
    Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Are we to understand that the procedure in these cases is the same as that followed in a case where the Secretary of State for Air was concerned?

    Milk Supplies (North-Western Area)
    Mr. Graham Whiteasked the Minister of Food if his attention has been drawn to the serious shortage of milk in Birkenhead and the North-Western Area; and if he can make any statement on the prospects of improvement in the situation.
    Colonel Llewellin: There was a temporary shortage of milk in this area, but now that the allowance for non-priority consumers has been reduced to two pints there should be sufficient milk to meet the decreased consumption.

  SHIPPING AND SHIPBUILDING (ADVISORY COMMITTEE)
  Miss Wardasked the First Lord of the Admiralty (1) whether the proposed Advisory Committee on shipbuilding and shipping will have powers to make financial recommendations;
  (2) whether he proposes to place in the Library of the House the advice tendered to him by the proposed Advisory Committee.
  The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. A. V. Alexander): If, in the course of tendering advice to the Minister of War Transport and myself, the Committee find it necessary or desirable to make recommendations involving finance, there is nothing to prevent them from so doing. Advice tendered by the Committee, like

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  the advice tendered to Ministers from other Governmental sources, will be confidential.
  Miss Ward: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Advisory Committee appointed by the Minister of Fuel and Power, on coal production, is going to put its report in the Library of the House? Will he follow that precedent, and not the other one?
  Mr. Alexander: The matters involved in the work of this Committee are not quite analogous.

  DISABLED NAVAL PERSONNEL (DISCHARGE)
  Sir I. Fraserasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will lengthen substantially the time during which disabled naval personnel may remain in the Navy, so that they may enjoy the pay and status thus afforded and continue to wear uniform, thus minimising the invidious distinction between serving men and discharged men who are in the same hospital at the same time.
  Mr. Alexander: I will have my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion examined, but, in view of the many difficulties involved, I can hold out no promise that this is possible.
  Sir I. Fraser: Will the First Lord consult with the other Service Ministers in this matter, and, in view of the answer given by the Secretary of State for Air earlier to-day, will he see if something can be done to meet a real need?
  Mr. Alexander: I will certainly consult with my colleagues in the Service Departments.

  ACCESS TO BEACH, EAST PRESTON (PROSECUTION)
  Sir Herbert Williamsasked the Attorney-General whether he intends to prosecute Captain Vivian H. T. Davison, staff officer, sub-district, including West Sussex, for having stated on oath, at Littlehampton Police Court, on 21st August, that mines were sown in the beach at East Preston, since it is now known that no mines were ever sown in this beach.
  The Solicitor-General (Major Sir David Maxwell Fyfe): A prosecution would have to be based on a wilful misstatement, and I am satisfied that there is no basis for any such suggestion. I have compared the report of the evidence, as taken by the clerk and as reported in the newspapers, and I have also seen a statement by Captain Davison. The newspaper reports confirm Captain Davison's recollection that he was referring to mines in the area and had particularly in mind the mines which were above high water mark on the stretch of East Preston beach which were not protected from the seaward side.
  Sir H. Williams: Having regard to the fact that the officer stated that the danger arose, owing to the fact that mines had drifted above the shingle, will the hon. and learned Gentleman reconsider his answer?
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: Is it not highly undesirable to make an allegation of perjury against an officer by name in this House where it is unsupported by the smallest evidence?
  Sir H. Williams: On a point of Order. As the evidence of the officer is in conflict with the statement made to the House by the Secretary of State for Air, and as 62 people, including a High Court judge, were fined as a result of this evidence, is it not desirable that these questions should be asked?

  PENSIONS APPEALS
  Mr. Shephardasked the Attorney-General how many appeals to the pensions appeals tribunals have been heard; and what number of such appeals have been granted pensions.
  The Solicitor-General: Up to 4th November, 10,319 appeals had been disposed of by the Pensions Appeal Tribunals in the United Kingdom; of these 2,820 appeals were allowed. In all ordinary cases, the allowing of an appeal determines the right to a pension. There are a very small number of cases in which this may not be so, namely, where, in certain cases, there is no present need, or where there is at the moment no assessable degree of disablement.

  LEGAL AID SCHEMES (CIVILIANS)
  Major Gatesasked the Attorney-General whether His Majesty's Government is contemplating extending the provisions of the legal aid schemes, now in operation in the three Services, to personnel recently discharged from those Services and who, since their return to this country and discharge, have discovered grounds for divorce, but that the present cost of divorce procedure is beyond their financial resources.
  The Solicitor-General: No, Sir, the scheme to which the hon. Member refers would not be appropriate to civilians. Members of the Forces, after discharge, may apply as civilians for the facilities provided by the Poor Persons Procedure. The question whether those facilities should be modified or improved is under consideration by the Committee now siting under the Chairmanship of Lord Rushcliffe.
  Mr. Astor: Can the hon. and learned Gentleman say how soon a decision will be reached, as the Attorney-General has agreed that cases have shown that there are people who fall between the Poor Persons Procedure Act and the normal procedure, and who cannot get any redress?
  The Solicitor-General: The Committee is sitting, and I cannot say how soon it will report, but the question of the income group to which my hon. Friend refers is very much in everyone's mind at the present time.

  INDIAN ARMY (DEMOBILISATION)
  Mr. Summersasked the Secretary of State for India if he is aware of the resentment felt by those who have joined the Indian Army, not as a career but for the war, many of whom are not volunteers, that they are not to participate in the scheme for demobilisation; and if he has any statement to make.
  The Secretary of State for India (Mr. Amery): My hon. Friend is, of course, aware that general demobilisation cannot take place until the total defeat of the Axis Powers throughout the world, and that, pending the defeat of Japan the question, as is clearly stated in the White Paper on the subject, is one of the reallocation of man-power. While the White
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  Paper does not itself apply to British personnel of the Indian Army, I can assure him that general principles laid down in it, e.g. release by age and service group and special release for urgent reconstruction employment, will be applied to the Indian Army subject to such modifications as the special circumstances of the latter may call for. But the clause in the White Paper which states that "military requirements must override all other considerations "applies to the Indian Army as well as to the British Army, and the special problem with which the former is faced is that officers who have received the training which fits them to command Indian troops cannot be released until trained officers are available to replace them. Subject to these overriding Considerations, the Government of India and I are determined that all practicable steps should be taken to secure that release of personnel from the Indian Army should, as far as possible, accord with the lines that are being adopted in the case of the British Army. I am in consultation with the War Office on the subject.
  Mr. Summers: Are we to understand from that reply that, apart from the exigencies of war, there would be no handicaps in respect of demobilisation to a man in the Indian Army, as compared with a man in the British Army serving with the Indian Army?
  Mr. Amery: That is a very correct summary of my longer answer.
  Mr. A. Edwards: Do I understand that it does not matter even if they are volunteers? If they are volunteers serving with the Indian Army, do I understand that they have not, in any way, prejudiced their right to demobilisation?
  Mr. Amery: No, Sir, subject to the exigencies of the Service, as I have said.

  SOCIAL INSURANCE (OLD AGE PENSIONERS)
  Mr. Gallacherasked the Minister without Portfolio if he has considered the telegrams from the old age pensioners of the Fife area, copies of which were sent to him by the hon. Member for West Fife; and will he accede to their demand that the old age pensioners' charter be included in the scheme of social insurance.
  The Minister without Portfolio (Sir William Jowitt): I have considered the representations referred to, but am unable to add to what was said on behalf of the Government in the course of last week's Debate.
  Mr. Gallacher: In view of the consideration which these old age pensioners deserve, arising out of their long service to the country, will the Minister agree to receive a deputation of old age pensioners, accompanied by a number of Members of Parliament, to discuss this matter?
  Sir W. Jowitt: I have received large numbers of deputations on this topic, and, though I am willing to listen to any hon. Members of this House, I do not think any useful purpose would be served by any further deputations.
  Mr. Tinker: May I ask the Minister whether, since this supplementary rate of 35s. for a man and wife, and £1 for a single man, is not sufficient, he will consider adding something to it, pending the proposals of the White Paper?
  Sir W. Jowitt: This matter was fully debated in a recent Debate, and I cannot add to the statement made then.

  GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS (FACTORIES AND STORES)
  Sir Granville Gibsonasked the President of the Board of Trade why it is considered necessary to incur an expenditure of £485,000 on a new building for dealing with surplus Government stores at a time of great housing shortage when there are 1,000 Government factories available and, after the war with Germany, further Government owned factories will be available for the purpose to which it is intended to devote the factory proposed to be built at North Shields.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Captain Waterhouse): The demand for factories for war production and buildings for storage greatly exceeds the present supply; and this is particularly true in areas such as North Shields. Many of the Government buildings suitable for factory purposes will not become available to industrialists till after the end of the Japanese war.
  Sir G. Gibson: How does the Minister justify the statement he has just made
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  with what the President of the Board of Trade stated—that there are i,000 Government factories available to-day—and how can he justify the expenditure of nearly £500,000 on new Government buildings, when there are so many Government buildings available and there is such a terrible shortage of houses in the country?
  Captain Waterhouse: My right hon. Friend has never stated that there were 1,000, or even 10, Government factories available to-day, but they may eventually be available. I think my hon. Friend would agree that, if we can build storage capacity, it will enable us the sooner to free industrial buildings, which is most desirable.

  NORMANDY HARBOUR (DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION)
  Sir O. Simmondsasked the Secretary of State for War if he will state the names of those principally responsible for the design and construction of the "Mulberry" port.
  The Secretary of State for War (Sir James Grigg): In a work of such magnitude, many persons were naturally engaged, in the Royal Navy, Army and Ministry of Supply, as well as outside consultants, contractors and their workers. I cannot, of course, speak for the other Departments concerned, and the only names I shall therefore give will be members of the War Office staff or outside consultants directly called in by them. Design was carried out under the superintendence of Brigadier Bruce White, K.B.E., Director of Ports and Inland Water Transport at the War Office, and his staff. Many Civil Engineers and consultants, notably Messrs. Gwyther, Iorys Hughes, Lobnitz and Kent, contributed to the design. Construction in England was carried out by the Ministry of Supply. The work in Normandy was carried out jointly by the Royal Navy and the Army. The Army officer in charge of the work was Brigadier A. E. M. Walter, Royal Engineers.
  Sir O. Simmonds: May I ask my right hon. Friend if, when it comes to the time to announce some of the other brilliant enterprises of this country in the invasion of Europe, he would consider making a similar comprehensive announcement,

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  rather than having various individual announcements in the Press which are garbled and wholly inaccurate?
  Sir J. Grigg: If my hon. Friend's suggestion is that, in future, we should blow our trumpet more loudly, I will certainly consider that.
  Mr. Turton: Is it a fact that the idea of these designs originated at Supreme Headquarters of Combined Operations?
  Sir J. Grigg: I said that the designs were carried out under the superintendence of Brigadier Bruce White.
  Mr. Turton: But did the idea of the designs originate from Supreme Headquarters of Combined Operations?
  Mr. George Griffiths: Do not tell them too much.

  BLACK-OUT REGULATIONS
  Mr. Summersasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will re-state the recent changes in the restrictions concerning the black-out in order to dispel the widespread ignorance on the subject and to enable people in the streets of London and other towns to benefit from the additional light from houses which should result therefrom.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Herbert Morrison): I am not aware of any widespread doubt of the nature and extent of the recent ohanges in the lighting regulations, which were given full publicity on their introduction,. The "half-light" or "dim out" relaxation for houses is in force throughout the country except for a few coastal districts.
  Mr. Summers: Has the Minister detected any improvement in the lighting of the streets, apart from the advantage which would follow from the lights in the houses?
  Mr. H. Morrison: I am sorry, but I could not hear the question.
  Commander Agnew: Is the Minister aware that, in Cornwall, there are a great many districts, other than coastal districts, which are still subject to the grim severity of the black-out; and will he review the position in that county and see if he can make some concession in the very near future?
  Mr. Morrison: Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend would communicate with me on that point. It would not be desirable that we should mention particular areas which may be subject to continued restrictions, but if he will communicate with me I will look into it.
  Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Does not my right hon. Friend feel that there is a lack of understanding on the part of local authorities and other undertakings in London of what he wants done to bring a little more cheer, light and comfort to London this winter? Has he got enthusiastic support from the local authorities or is he satisfied with the work of the local authorities at the present time in carrying out what he has suggested?
  Mr. Morrison: This has nothing to do with the local authorities at all.
  Mr. Walkden: Why not?
  Mr. Morrison: The local authorities have no jurisdiction. It is purely a matter for the ordinary citizen. It is John Citizen who is concerned. I patiently and carefully explained what he could do, and John Citizen came to his own conclusion.
  Mr. Walkden: Cannot street lighting be what is called "dimmed out" instead of blacked out?
  Mr. Morrison: The subject with which we are dealing is domestic lighting.
  Mr. Higgs: Will the Home Secretary agree to review the Order which compels factories to black-out and means that the workers are working in artificial light all day long?
  Mr. Morrison: We have given them a measure of discretion.
  Mr. Higgs: Not at all.
  Mr. Morrison: I beg the hon. Member's pardon. We have given discretion to get rid of permanent black-out. Whether there is something particularly static about Birmingham I do not know, but I should hope that that would not be the case in that city.
  Sir Percy Harris: Is it not commonsense, while danger from air attack is not completely over, to take the Minister's advice as the wisest thing in all the circumstances?
  Mr. Morrison: I think so, Sir. There is no finality about the business. We shall continue to review the matter from day to day and—who knows?—some better news might come along presently—or sooner or later.

WAR AND INTERNATIONAL SITUATION
Mr. Eden: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister gave the House a fortnight ago an account of our conversation with Marshal Stalin and M. Molotov in Moscow. I have nothing to add to that account but if the House would give me leave I would like to make a very brief statement of the work that it fell to me to do after the departure of my right hon. Friend. In Egypt I met the newly appointed Egyptian Prime Minister, who assured me of his Government's loyalty to the alliance with this country, which alliance, as the House will remember, is enshrined in the Anglo-Egyptian Treaty of 1936, an instrument which has well stood the test of time, emergency and war. In the three or four days that I spent in Cairo I also had the opportunity to discuss with Lord Moyne—whose brutal and tragic assassination is such a blow to us all—all the manifold political and administrative problems which were in the area of his responsibility.
On 25th October I left, with Lord Moyne, by air, for Athens. I should have explained that, at an earlier stage, our Ambassador to Greece had telegraphed to the Prime Minister and myself urging that one or both of us should visit Athens on our way home, to meet the Minister of the Greek Government and to see for ourselves the situation and the problems which to-day confront liberated Greece. The Prime Minister agreed that this should be my task. I do not believe that informed opinion in this country yet fully understands how complete, how merciless, how dastardly has been the devastation inflicted by the German armies in Allied lands as they are compelled to withdraw. The purpose underlying this systematic barbarity is clear enough. It is to bring to a standstill the whole life of the nation. That is what the Germans told the Greeks they would do as they left All communications, all bridges, all telegraphs are destroyed; all means of transport, lorries and even, in many instances, pack animals are removed; all harbours are
1370
mined, blocked, blown up, every crane in the Piraeus destroyed. The essential parts of factories are removed and stocks of raw materials are either taken away or destroyed. For instance, there is, in Greece, a small but important textile industry. There is no means of getting that to work because there is no. machinery left nor cotton.
In Greece, thanks to the heroism of the local defenders, the great power station near Athens was saved, but for the rest, one has to admit that the German plan was so thoroughly carried out that problems of immense complexity confronted the Greek Government, and of these vexed problems, the currency situation was by no means the least. Though much remains to be done, I am able to report to the House substantial progress in dealing with these problems. First and foremost, in respect to supply; as a result of most strenuous efforts on the part of the Royal Navy and the Royal Engineers, who sometimes do not get all the public credit they deserve, and of the civilian population in the Piraeus, too, that port has been got to work again, in part, at least. By the end of October we had reached a figure of supplies unloaded at the Piraeus alone almost of 3,000 tons a day—a truly remarkable figure in the circumstances. A substantial proportion of what is unloaded is foodstuffs for the civilian population and we are confident that that figure can be improved substantially as the port capacity is increased.
When the remaining obstacles are overcome, we expect to unload in Greece a monthly tonnage of over 130,000 tons and of that, about 60,000 tons will be foodstuffs and 70,000 tons will be clothing, medicine and relief goods. I must make it plain that the delivery of these very large supplies and the organisation entailed were only made possible by the careful work done in advance largely by all staffs of our military authorities and by those of the United States in the Middle East, so that when the emergency came we should be ready. It is also clear that an effective means of combating this inflation—though I do not pretend to be an authority on this matter—is to ensure tht import of supplies, and in connection with that the Supreme Commander in the Mediterranean, General Wilson, Admiral Cunningham, the C.-in-C., Mediterranean, Lord Moyne and my right hon. Friend

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the Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. H. Macmillan) and I have had many consultations, as a result of which, certain arrangements were made to bring urgently from the Middle East certain goods in addition to the previously arranged military relief.
I would like to give the House just two examples which may interest all. By air we arranged to bring some 200 tons of special supplies urgently needed, and the Royal Navy and warships brought over in addition some 600 or 700 tons in emergency passages. The arrival of these goods helped to restore confidence; and we tried to deal with the problem of transport in the same way. Admirable arrangements have been made by the military authorities, but owing to the complete removal of every means of transport inside the country, something further was needed, and we did arrange for several hundred further lorries to be brought from the Middle East to help to restore some economic life inside the country, for that was wholly at a standstill. For example, olive oil, which is the diet of the Greek people, is produced in large quantities, but owing to this complete removal of transport and destruction of bridges it could not be removed from the country places and in the towns it was not available.
In the last few days the first convoy has arrived in Athens bringing olive oil from the Peloponnese, and so progress is being made, and there is good hope for the future provided stable internal conditions can be maintained; but on this all successful organisation of relief must inevitably depend. I could not close this brief account of what we saw in Greece without saying how much moved were all ranks of the British Forces by the truly warm-hearted welcome given them by all sections of the Greek people. As we all know, our Greek friends are very politically minded, they have many parties, and I could find only one subject upon which they all agreed, a general and wholehearted welcome to the British Forces.
I should like also to say a very few words about my visit to Italy. The main purpose of this was to accept an invitation which General Alexander had kindly extended to me, to visit our Front in Northern Italy. I was unfortunate in that the days of my stay there coincided
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with those phenomenal storms, which the people of a country invariably tell you have never been known to happen since 1880 or some other date. As a result, all I could know was that the rivers were soon torrents, all low-lying land was a quagmire much more like Flanders than the Italy of the Florentine pictures, and all movement was a matter of the utmost difficulty. Even a day's hard work, in which we transferred ourselves from a jeep to a three-ton lorry in accordance with the depths of the flood at particular points—all the time slithering about and cursing and struggling a good deal—enabled us to cover only a very small percentage of the mileage we had planned to cover. Although this was naturally disappointing to anyone who wished to see much, it did enable me to understand, as I suppose nothing else could have done, the conditions under which our Allied Armies are living and fighting in Italy. No praise that we can utter can be too high for those men. They have had a prolonged struggle with a stubborn foe. They have had to contend not only with the fighting capacity of their enemies but with conditions of climate and terrain peculiar to Italy. Under the brilliant leadership of General Alexander and of his Army commanders, the United States General Mark Clark and General McCreery, who has succeeded General Oliver Leese, they have persevered undaunted.
I hope that in a comparatively short space of time it will be possible to arrange for some Members of this House to visit that Front. I know that such a visit would be welcomed there—I was so informed—and when hon. Members do go I am sure they will feel, as I do, that to meet those men, to see the conditions in which they live and fight, is to feel a deep sense of pride in our own people, a conviction of final victory and a confidence in the work we can all do together in the years that lie ahead.
Miss Ward: May I ask whether, at a convenient date, the right hon. Gentleman would publish in a White Paper details of the kind of devastation the Germans have caused in the countries which they have occupied? I think it would be very useful to have it on record.
Mr. Eden: I will see whether the information that comes to us can be collected in same form.
Mr. McGovern: Has the attention of the Foreign Secretary also been drawn to the "Evening News" of last Friday, in which it was stated that we are engaged in a policy of systematic obliteration of German territory?
Mr. Eden: What I am dealing with is a systematic attempt of the Germans, on being forced by military events to retreat from a country, to see that that country cannot live.
Captain Duncan: Can the right hon. Gentleman say anything about Northern Greece and whether Macedonia and Thrace are now free of Bulgarian troops?
Mr. Eden: Yes, all the Bulgarian troops have been withdrawn.
Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether Salonika, which is now understood to be free, will receive supplies of food as quickly as Athens?
Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir, plans have been made but I am sure the hon. Member will realise the particular difficulties of the approach to Salonika.
Mr. Arthur Greenwood: As my right hon. Friend mentioned the lamented death of Lord Moyne, can he inform the House whether any more news has been, received by His Majesty's Government?
Mr. Eden: No, Sir, I am not in a position at present to add anything to what the Prime Minister said yesterday. We have called for a full report and investigations are being made, and as soon as we have the report we will inform the House.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS

  LONDON MIDLAND AND SCOTTISH RAILWAY BILL [Lords] and LONDON MIDLAND AND SCOTTISH RAILWAY (CANALS) BILL [Lords].
  That they communicate that they have considered the Commons Message of Wednesday last and have come to the following Resolutions, namely:
  That the promoters of the Bills which have been introduced into this House in the present Session of Parliament and which have passed this House and been sent to the House of Commons, shall have leave to introduce the same in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Private Bill Office not later
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  than Three o'Clock on the day prior to the close of the present Session, and that all fees due thereon, up to that period, be paid.
  That such Bills be deposited in the Private Bill Office not later than Three o'Clock on or before the third day on which the House shall sit after the next meeting of Parliament, with a declaration annexed thereto, signed by the agents, stating that the Bills are the same in every respect as the Bills at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present Session:
  That the proceedings on such Bills shall be pro forma in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present Session; and that no new fees be charged in respect to such stages:
  That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply to the said Bills in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed during the present Session.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered:
"That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), for One hour after Six o'Clock."—[Mr. Eden.]

INDUSTRIAL INJURY INSURANCE
12.12 p.m.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Herbert Morrison): I beg to move,
"That this House welcomes the intention of His Majesty's Government, declared in the White Paper presented to Parliament, to replace the existing system of workmen's compensation by a new scheme of Industrial Injury Insurance."
This Debate, and the Debate of last week on Part I of the social insurance proposals of the Government, follow upon an earlier Debate on the Beveridge Report that took place quite a considerable time ago. It was my duty to wind up that Debate on behalf of the Government in somewhat exciting circumstances, followed by a Division, and I ventured then, and in some subsequent public speeches, to be reasonably optimistic as to the implementation of the proposals in that Report. Naturally it is a source of great pleasure to me that both Part I and Part II of the White Paper have, as I think the House agrees, substantially upheld the proposals in the Beveridge Report. In certain respects there are departures from that Report, and to these changes and modifications I will refer. But in the modifications and changes in workmen's compensation that we propose as compared with the present law and the proposals embodied in the Beveridge Report I am optimistic enough to hope—I cannot do more—that I will carry with me not only the House in general but in particular my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir W. Beveridge), to my debt to whom I will refer later.
In the big Debate some time ago I said there was usually considerable argument about workmen's compensation. Being fairly new to the subject, after having handled two Bills I had soon learned that workmen's compensation was an exciting subject. As I said then, it is complex and difficult, as I think the House recognises, and no Members more than many of my hon.
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Friends opposite who have had so much experience in connection with it. I did indicate that it would be wise to be cautious about it. Even at that time, as I made clear in the course of the Debate, from my own short experience of the Home Office in relation to this vast subject, I personally felt convinced that big changes would be necessary, but before getting down to the job of modernising the system, I hoped for some help and guidance from the House in the course of that three-day Debate.
As it turned out, the Debate, possibly inevitably, centred largely upon the social insurance proposals in general and, in fact, little or nothing was said about the workmen's compensation aspect of the subject at all. I deduced from that, perhaps rather boldly, that the Government was given a free hand to conduct its researches in relation to workmen's compensation, and the Government's proposals are now before the country and the House in the shape of Part II of the White Paper on the whole subject of social insurance. It is, of course, only part of the social insurance proposals but it is a big and important part. As indicating the magnitude of the problem as it affects our fellow citizens, last year nearly 2,000 persons actually lost their lives in factories and mines alone, and in addition nearly half a million more were injured. That is a measure of the casualty list of industry, and an indication of the importance of the subject to the great numbers of our fellow countrymen and women who are following industrial employments.
I think I am justified in making the claim that whatever may be said about details, even important details, the proposals embodied in the White Paper now before the House constitute a revolutionary advance in the whole structure of workmen's compensation administration. Part II is in one sense more revolutionary than Part I of the social insurance proposals. The social insurance proposals in Part I embody very important proposals which rationalise, extend, reorganise and improve the existing arrangements. But the industrial injury insurance proposals set out to substitute an entirely new principle for the principle upon which workmen's compensation has been based during the half-century since 1897, when it began. Under the 1897

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Workmen's 'Compensation Act, responsibility for the casualties of industry was placed upon the employer. In its day even this was revolutionary, for the 19th century had seen little legislation of this character, and certainly none of the social insurance legislation which the present century has seen, markedly beginning with the Liberal Government of 1906.
One revolutionary feature of the 1897 Act was that it imposed a liability upon the employer to pay compensation, quite independently of whether there had been negligence, not only on the part of the employer or of anyone employed by him, but also on that of the workman himself, even including wilful negligence, in the case of death or serious and permanent disablement. The scheme of 1897 preceded compulsory insurance, which came later, and it was natural at that time to place the liability on the employer, especially as neither Parliament nor Government had, up to that time, had experience of modern social legislation administration. In this connection I have a theory—it can be no more than a theory—that the placing of the liability directly on the employer was perhaps largely fortuitous. That impression is somewhat borne out by a contribution made to an earlier. Debate by Mr. Joseph Chamberlain. In the course of a very interesting and, if I may say so, very enlightened speech—at any rate for that time—on the Second reading of Mr. Asquith's Employers' Liability Bill on the 20th February, 1893, Mr. Joseph Chamberlain, who was advocating compensation for all cases except where the workman himself was negligent, said this:
"In dealing with compensation, I should be inclined to treat the employer merely as a convenient channel through which the compensation should be paid."
He thought that employers would insure to cover the cost and that, since all a workman would have to do would be to prove that he had not been negligent, you would get rid of litigation. But it seems from Mr. Chamberlain's observation that he was not suggesting the employer for any particular economic motive, or even to encourage him to be careful about accidents. Rather, in his own words it was merely that he proposed to treat the employer
"as a convenient channel through which the compensation should be paid."
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However, the position was not so simple as Mr. Chamberlain at that time thought. As my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed said in the course of his Report, the existing system
"was based on a wrong principle, and has been dominated by a wrong outlook."
I absolutely agree with what my hon. Friend said. First of all, a social question so important as the welfare of the workman and his family, should not be, in my judgment, a matter of argument between him and his employer, with litigation as the machinery for resolving disputes between them. Secondly, a system under which the responsibility for paying compensation is placed on an individual is necessarily complicated, and the already complicated Statute law has inevitably been overlaid by a substantial and complete complex body of case law. In the third place, the fact that every increase in benefit had to come out of the pockets of employers could not fail to retard progress, or to affect adversely the relations between employers and workmen. Fourthly, such a system could not be properly related to the other social insurance services and, what is most important, the vital problem of rehabilitation—which will be all the more important if we achieve full employment—under the old system could not be satisfactorily solved.
Improvements have of course, been made in the 1897 Act. There have been extensions over other fields of industry. The benefits have been substantially increased over the years as compared with what they were in the beginning, but the principle that I have indicated has stood throughout. During the war the process of improvement has been carried even further. My right hon. Friend the present Chancellor of the Exchequer supported by the present Financial Secretary to the Treasury, to both of whom I would pay my tribute—it is curious how these combinations recur in the course of Parliamentary history—brought in legislation in 1940 which made improvements in the provision for workmen's compensation. Again I, in association with my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary when he was at the Home Office, brought in legislation later which made further improvements and further extensions in the range of possible beneficiaries. These improvements in war time legislation taken together have meant a substantial move

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along the road, and they must be related to the White Paper proposals, to which, indirectly, they have made their contribution.
It may be well to summarise the wartime improvements. The pre-war maximum that could be paid for workmen's compensation was 30s. a week. That 30s. maximum has during the war been supplemented, so that the present position is that a single man gets 35s. as compared with 30s. before the war, whether married or single; the married man gets 40s.; after 13 weeks the single man gets 40s. and the married man gets 50s. and, a provision which did not exist at all before the war, there is a payment of 5s. in respect of each child. The proportion of compensation to average weekly earnings has been raised from 50 per cent. to two-thirds and, where there are children's allowances, the maximum has been raised to seven-eighths. We also introduced increases in fatal cases. Another change was that the income limit for non-manual workers was raised to £420 from £350.
I am very happy indeed as Home Secretary to have been associated, in conjunction with my predecessor and with my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, with these appreciable war-time improvements. However, as I have said in the House in answer to criticisms of these proposals, what was wanted really was a radical and fundamental recasting of the whole structure and the whole system. I do not deny that the old system served the country well in its time, but its reform, nevertheless, is overdue. Fundamentally, it is Victorian in its conception; it is out of keeping with modern ideas, and this is particularly true having regard to the developments of social insurance which have taken place during the present century. The old structure has been improved. It has been patched up by the war-time legislation and other legislation; it has had repairs, but now it needs to be pulled down and rebuilt on modern lines.
Indeed recognition that all was not well was shown before the war when the Royal Commission on Workmen's Compensation was appointed in December, 1938. In this connection I should like to pay my tribute to Sir Hector Hetherington and all his colleagues on that Royal Commission. They got so far with their
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investigations and they heard a fair amount of evidence, but then the inquiry of my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed came along and it was clear that we had to examine the problem as a Government, with the result that that Royal Commission have never finished their jab. Nevertheless, they have made their contribution and I am grateful to them for their work. Their natural disappointment at being unable to complete their tack is appreciated, but the evidence that they collected was none the less relevant and useful in the building up of the present White Paper scheme. And so also was the investigation carried out by my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed. It has made a material contribution. A number of his proposals survive in the White Paper, and although various modifications of some importance have been introduced, I should indeed be ungenerous were I not to express my grateful thanks to my hon. Friend for the contribution he has made to the unravelling of the problem.
In Part II of the White Paper, the Government have provided. Parliament and the country with their plans for the new structure. I want to make it clear that they are not final. The whole idea of a White Paper it that it should not be final; it is a basis far discusssion and debate, and we shall have criticisms, suggestions, additional proposals, and proposals for alterations, and I can only say for myself—and I am sure for my colleagues—that we shall not be unwilling to consider any criticisms and suggestions that may be made. I would only ask of the critics that they should enter into the matter in the right spirit and, on their side, make criticisms and suggestions in a helpful way. We, on our side, will try not to be unhelpful in the way we receive them. As I have said, the White Paper has been issued for the purpose of discussion and consideration in Parliament and the country, and by the many organisations who are vitally concerned. All we ask to-day is that the House should endorse the main provisions, and particularly the main principles upon which the proposals in the White Paper are based.
In addition to those of whom I have already spoken as contributing to this scheme, I would refer to the insurance companies and the employers, who have

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made their contribution, and the Trades Union Congress, who for many years have made proposals and criticisms in this field—and it was right that they should—mentioning in particular the helpful liaison work between them and my hon. Friends in Parliament, and my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke (Mr. Ellis Smith), and the present chairman of the Trades Union Congress, my hon. Friend the Member for North Southwark (Mr. Isaacs). All have made their contribution, and it would be only right and proper that I should pay a particular tribute to my right hon. Friend the present Financial Secretary to the Treasury for his work at the Home Office in connection with workmen's compensation. The policy was mine; these fundamental changes of principle were what I directed and what I wanted, and with the co-operation and support of my colleagues in the Government I now submit them to the House. But my right hon. Friend, then Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the Home Office, was exceedingly helpful. He is very expert on the subject, and probably the only man in this House able to answer adequately some of my hon. Friends opposite. That is why I have him here to-day. I always believe in the best advocates. He has been exceedingly helpful, enlightened and progressive. When I began to discuss these things with him I wondered how my right hon. Friend—as a Conservative and also having regard to his industrial origins—and I would get on together. Let me say again that on this subject he has really been most helpful and progressive, and I indeed owe a debt of gratitude to him. I would say the same of the able and very competent officers who deal with workmen's compensation at the Home Office. They have been dealing with this sad, rather dreary and technical subject for many years, and they threw themselves wholeheartedly into the task of reconstruction.
The main and truly revolutionary feature of the new scheme is that, for the first time, it transfers to the community as a whole the responsibility for the casualties of industry, and I think and hope that the House will agree that it is right that the responsibility for the casualties of industry should rest broadly and firmly upon the community as a whole. It is a complete change of con-
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ception, and workmen's compensation under its new title of "industrial injury insurance" will become, for the first time a social service administered for the community by the new Ministry of Social Insurance if the Bill now before the House is, in due course, passed. May I say that I will be sorry to lose this subject from the Home Office. It has been there a long time and as I think all sides of the House will agree good work has been done by the Home Office. It has not been an unpleasant Department with which to negotiate on the subject, and I have another reason for regretting the change. I am very anxious that the Home Office shall always keep some social problems within its compass and shall not be limited to problems relating to police and prisons. If the Home Office becomes purely a prison and police department, detached from the wider social problems of our times, it will be bad for it, and bad for the administration of justice in this country. We must never let the British Home Office become a Continental Ministry of the Interior.
Other changes flow from the central change of principle which I have mentioned. Workmen's compensation is now to become part of the general social insurance structure, though it will be a separate scheme with higher benefits than those provided for under Part r. We rejected the proposal in the Beveridge Report for a special levy on the hazardous industries for two reasons, and I hope that, on reflection, they may commend themselves to my hon. Friend. First of all, the more I thought about it, the more I came to the conclusion that it was wrong to put an additional, special burden on the hazardous industries. Some of them, including mining, are not easy industries, and to place an additional burden on them would be wrong. After considering representations from the industries and from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power, and other Ministers concerned, I came to the conclusion, as I have said, that it would be wrong to place a special burden on them. They are hazardous because of the nature of the industry, and not necessarily because of the particular carelessness of the people engaged in them. Secondly, I thought it right to have a complete pooling of risks, and that is why we have widened the scope of the

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people covered. The scheme is comprehensive; it applies to everybody over school-leaving age working under a con-contract of service or apprenticeship, and that should be remembered in relation to the financial basis of the scheme. It will provide sources of income which are much wider, and cover many more people, than before. That will improve the financial basis of the scheme.
It may be said that a number of people, including quite well-paid people, in non-manual employment, are never likely to claim under the scheme, and it may be that it is exceedingly unlikely that they will. But once we establish the principle that this should be a communal matter, is it not right that the financing of the compensation of those unfortunate enough to have accidents in the course of their employment should be widely spread? If people are to contribute who are very unlikely to benefit, well, it is very lucky for them that they are unlikely to benefit, and I am sure they will not mind contributing to help the unlucky people in other industries, some of which are exceedingly dangerous from the point of view of industrial accidents. Therefore, we start from the principle of contributions from everybody with a contract of service. The next principle is that there shall be flat rate benefits with supplements for family responsibilities. That is a departure from the Report of my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed who proposed to base industrial pensions on earnings. I was in two difficulties about this proposal. I have had the cases on both sides put to me and I admit the force of the arguments for his scheme. One case in point is that of, for example, the compositor, particularly if he is a linotype or monotype operator, who loses a finger and may no longer be able to do his job. It is a nasty thing to lose a finger, but, in the ordinary way, not serious. What am I going to do for him? A second case is that of an engine driver, a highly skilled and fairly well-paid worker, who may lose an eye, and to whom the railway company says, "You cannot drive a train any more, and you must do something else on the railway at a lower rate of pay."
I admit that these are difficult cases, but, of course, there is nothing in the proposals to prevent voluntary supple-
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mentary schemes of insurance being elaborated within the industries themselves, and on their own responsibility, if they so desire. But I did consider whether, while getting away from the evils of the system of relating compensation to earnings I could graduate the soldiers of industry into privates and sergeants, lower ranked commissioned officers and so on, perhaps, even up to general and field-marshal. I came to the conclusion that I could not. Administratively such a scheme would not stand up. I could not see how it could be worked. Either the grading had to be based upon the man's earnings, which are liable to change, or on his status in industry which, again, is liable to fluctuations. So I came to the conclusion that administratively it would not stand up, and, after examination, I put it aside.
The other question was whether we should go on relating compensation to the assumed estimated loss of earning power. Of all the difficult points in the administration of the existing Acts, this business of deciding, first, what the man was earning or what he might reasonably earn and, secondly, how his earning powers were affected, was the most difficult of all. If a miner loses an eye, for example, is his earning power affected? I understand from my hon. Friends from the mining industry that there have been cases in which it was held that the miner did not lose his earning power when he lost an eye. I can follow the legal argument. The poor chap has lost an eye, but his earning power has not suffered and it is just too bad if he does not get compensation. Moreover, there is the question of deciding what the man's earnings were, and I remember that, in a Debate on one of the Bills that I introduced, the argument was advanced that the basis of earnings upon which compensation had been paid was no longer realistic.
Then there is the problem of the man's future earnings. How are they to be computed? I would say that there has been more argument, more meticulous, and sometimes unhappy, discussion about the basis of estimating the loss of earning power than about anything else in connection with workmen's compensation. The more I saw of the working of the scheme, and the more I listened to Parliamentary Debates on the subject, the more I came to the conclusion that

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we should get rid of this method. I have no doubt that my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Ness Edwards), in the course of some of his eloquent and exciting speeches, may have made his contribution to my coming to that conclusion. I express my gratitude to him now, although I did not at the time, for a very understandable reason. I came to the conclusion that it must go, and that we must find a new basis. That new basis is that, if a workman, in the course of his industrial activity, loses an arm, a leg or an eye, or suffers some identifiable personal physical loss, a value should be put on what he has lost, for itself and of itself. Once it is permanently established that he has had that loss he must go on getting his industrial injury payment whatever his future earnings or economic position may be. He is being paid for a physical loss, and not exclusively for loss of earning power although it helps in that respect if there be such a loss. This big and fundamental change is one which I regard as essential to the whole of the proposals in this White Paper.
The next thing is how are claims to be paid? Up to now claims have been made on the employer or the insurance company and arguments have ensued. It is true that the arguments have often been pleasantly conducted, and that between the employers or the insurance company and the trade union officers a high proportion of claims have been amicably settled with good sense and good feeling on both sides. But they could, however, only be settled in the light of the ultimate remedy where there were disputes—an action in the courts, legal arguments and proceedings. I do not want the workman's position to be that he should have to claim from his employer or the employer's insurance company and that he should have to have an argument with them. I want him to have certain social rights conferred upon him because of his injury. I want him to go to a public office to state his claim, and I want the officer at that office not to regard the workman as somebody with whom he must contend and whom he must resist. I want the officer's attitude to be that he is called upon to adminster the law and regulations fairly. I want him, therefore, to give the workman all the help he can, and also freely to meet the arguments of the trade union officer and help him in any way that may be desirable.
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There should be a transformation in the whole relationship. We must get rid of the old standards and the old state of mind under which, in the last resort, litigation between the workman and the employer was always in the background. I think it is well that that should go. Claims will, therefore, be paid by officers of a Government Department—the proposed Ministry of Social Insurance. They will be settled administratively; there will be an end to the wrangles and disputes which were inevitable where the compensation of one individual came out of the pocket of another. These are big changes. Compensation will be based on the degree of disablement, instead of the estimated loss of earning capacity. I believe that this is the only method that is compatible with social insurance principles. It will remove a fruitful source of dispute on the extent to which earning capacity is impaired, and a workman will be encouraged to co-operate fully in the restoration of his health and earning capacity without fear that because of his restoration to health and earning capacity his compensation will come down. That will help us to get the cordial co-operation of the workman in his rehabilitation.
We considered the lump sum payment. I think it would be the general view of those who are experienced in this matter that there were many evils connected with the lump sum payment. First, there was the bargaining as to what should be the amount and, secondly, there was the question of what the person concerned would do with the lump sum when he got it. In some cases the, lump sum payment successfully put him on his feet in a little business, but there were many other cases in which, for example, people put the money into a business and failed, and a few cases in which they had a merry time until the money was gone. The lump sum payment was not only compensation for the workman; it was also compensation for his wife and family, and they had an interest in it. From all points of view, therefore, I think that the lump sum should go, and that the industrial injury pension should succeed it, except in the case of very small payments where, as a matter of administration, it is best and convenient to get the case out of the way.
Each of these things represents a substantial advance. Cumulatively this

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scheme represents a revolution. I do not need to go into the proposals in detail, and the House would not wish me to do so. Moreover, they are to be found in the White Paper. My right hon. friend the Financial Secretary will wind up the Debate, and my hon. and learned friend the Solicitor-General has kindly agreed to intervene in the Debate, either to-day or to-morrow, according to what is convenient, to deal with any points that come up and particularly to accord some reasonable degree of protection for myself against possible offensives from Members who are well versed in the legal aspects of the matter, and whose points of view will, no doubt, be heard. But it will help the House, I think, if I draw attention to the salient points which I have not already mentioned.
As to scope, the scheme will apply to personal injuries arising out of, and in the course of, employment, and to specified industrial diseases. I know that "arising out of and in the course of" has been subject to much criticism and to much legal argument. It has tended to expand as the years have gone on, and for that the courts and the lawyers can claim some credit. We considered whether we could get another definition, without prejudice or bias, but we could not, although any proposals that are put forward will be considered. The classical case is that of the workman who, if he has an accident within the factory gates, gets a certain benefit while if he slips on the kerb outside the gates, he gets a lower benefit. But you must have a line of demarcation somewhere. A similar point is whether the workman should be covered on his way to and from work. I follow that, so long as he goes straight to his work and straight back. But we are led into complications in relation to Part I of the proposals and, quite frankly, we have not found a better definition. I hope the new tribunals will not be less catholic-minded than the courts have been about the interpretation of the words. Conceivably, they may be more catholic-minded. In respect of diseases it is proposed to adhere generally to the present principles.
As regards finance, there will be a central fund from which all benefits and administrative charges will be paid. This fund will be maintained by weekly contributions of 3d. per man and 2d. per
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woman, from both employer and workman collected by stamp. Ordinarily, it will be the same stamp as that under Part I, and there will be an Exchequer contribution of one-sixth of the total cost. The rate of contribution for juveniles will be a half. We shall wish to have the collaboration of industry in the development and administration of the scheme. I have always thought, while I had been handling this matter at the Home Office, that the system of ad hoc consultations with employers and insurance companies and representatives of trade unions left much to be desired, and that if we could get a continuous review of the subject by a representative body it would be a good thing. Even if this White Paper had not been brought forward I should have proposed the setting up of an advisory council. It is proposed here that an advisory council should be set up, with equal representation for employers and employees, just as there are equal contributions. Similarly, there will be equal representation on the local appeal tribunals. In the first place, claims will be dealt with administratively by a pensions officer and, secondly, there will be a right of appeal to a local appeal tribunal, to which the pensions officer himself will also be able to refer cases. There will also be a further right of appeal on questions of law, or other questions which may be prescribed to a commissioner with legal qualifications, whose decision will be final.
The next important question is that of benefits. These are at a higher rate than those proposed under Part I of the social insurance scheme. One justification for that is history. Workmen's compensation has always had special treatment. If the workman is injured in the course of his employment he should, I think—because the nation needs him for its economic well-being—be entitled to more consideration than the ordinary citizen who has bad luck in the ordinary course of affairs.
Mr. Stephen indicated dissent.
Mr. Morrison: I see that my hon. Friend does not agree, and wants me to expound that. Well, I should have thought that the case was clear. It is essential that the workman should work and that he should go to his factory or place of employment. It is essential because the

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nation must live. For instance, coal must be produced, and mining is a dangerous occupation, and I should have thought that if you asked workpeople to face these special risks they should be entitled to special consideration from the community.
Mr. Bowles: Does not my right hon. Friend realise that the great majority of disputes in connection with workmen's compensation arise from the question whether the man is within the law or not? Surely, he must have been advised that at least 99 per cent. of the cases heard in the courts have turned on this question of entitlement?
Mr. Morrison: I am told that my hon. Friend is quite wrong in his belief. However, there will be an opportunity for him to put his point of view later. As I have just said, the benefits will be at a higher rate. My hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, in his Report, recommended that they should be the same for 13 weeks, which would have covered some 90 per cent. of the cases. Disablement cases will be dealt with at flat rates, with allowances for family commitments. First of all, there will be an industrial injury allowance for an initial period while the workman is incapacitated and at the end of 13 weeks, or when the case is determined, that will be replaced by an industrial pension where disablement is likely to be permanent or prolonged. That will be supplemented if the pensioner is unemployable. That is a new proposal. In both cases allowances will be given for family responsibilities, both in respect of the wife and the children. Where no wife's allowance is payable there will be provision for an equivalent allowance for one adult dependant, as under the general scheme, and that will be a new feature of workmen's compensation benefit. [AN HON. MEMBER: "Wholly dependent?"] I think it is wholly or mainly; however, the point will be dealt with later. Where the injured workman needs constant attendance on account of the injury, an additional allowance up to 20s. a week will be provided. That is new.
Mr. Harry Thorneycroft: In regard to pension rates, if an injured workman becomes unemployable he receives 10s. extra. That applies whatever may be the degree of disablement. If an injured workman whose degree of disability is less than 100 per
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cent., establishes his right to the 10s., is his pension rate raised to 100 per cent.?
Mr. Morrison: No, I should not think so. You might have a case where it is difficult to establish the 100 per cent. basis but where, nevertheless, the man is unemployable. I should not like to commit myself on the point. The case might be brought up for reassessment and reconsideration, but I should not like to commit myself to the statement that it would be automatic in both cases.
Mr. Thorneycroft: At present, under the Workmen's Compensation Acts, if it can be proved that a man is unemployable he is entitled to full compensation.
Mr. Morrison: We are bringing in a new factor, the factor of unemployability, and it would be unwise for me to commit myself to the view that this new concession is to determine the decision on something else, though I appreciate the relevance of the point.
Mr. Ness Edwards: If a workmen has a 90 per cent. disability pension and becomes unemployable, if you give him 10s. you are giving him more than 100 per cent. Is that the intention?
Mr. Morrison: Whatever the assessment of the degree of injury is, that will stand. If, in addition, he proves unemployability, he will get the 10s. in addition.
Mr. Edwards: Even if it exceeds 100 per cent.?
Mr. Morrison: Yes. In a good many cases where a workman is adjudged to be 100 per cent. incapacitated in fact he does work and earns wages. I am hoping that in the future that may increase. So it is not entirely a new principle. My hon. Friend has got this admission out of me. He is surprised that it is as good as it is, but I am glad that he should have it. The above allowances will be unaffected by subsequent earnings. Let the workmen go on earning. In administering a scheme of social insurance you have to be very careful about discouraging people from earning. We are encouraging people to earn, and we do not penalise the workman if he can find employment, whatever his compensation benefit may be. This is an important advance. Even where disablement is assessed at 100 per cent. I am told by

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the Ministry of Pensions that they find under their schemes that a considerable proportion of people are capable of earning wages, and in fact do so.
The commutation of pensions by a lump sum settlement will not be allowed. The industrial pensions, which will be assessed by a medical board, will be based on the degree of disablement resulting from the injury. The injured person will be compared with a normally healthy person of the same age and sex. That is an important improvement on the existing scheme. In cases of minor disablement there will be provision for a final settlement by a gratuity or temporary allowance at a special rate with or without a final gratuity. In fatal cases we substitute a pension for the lump sum payment. At the start widows and children will have temporary benefit as provided for under Part I of the social insurance scheme. Afterwards there will be a pension of 30s. a week for widows of 50 and over, and under 50 if they have dependent children or are otherwise incapable of self-support. There will be 20s. for widows under 50 without dependent children unless they are incapable of self support.
Mr. Buchanan: A widow of 25 or 26 will have a pension of 20s. if she can prove that her husband was killed as the result of his work. If he dies from some other cause, she gets nothing.
Mr. Morrison: She would come under the other scheme. There are good reasons why in the case of industrial injury we should be rather on the generous side, and I am not ashamed of that. There will be 12s. for an orphan and 7s. 6d. for the first child. Other children, of course, are covered by the family allowance proposals. There will also be provision for dependent parents and, where there is no pension for the widow, for one adult dependent member of the household. It is impossible to apply these proposals to past cases. We must start afresh with the new scheme, and we have come to the conclusion that the right course is to leave the liability in past cases on the employer in accordance with the existing Acts. I wish we could have done otherwise but it is impossible. The Temporary Increases Act, 1943, will be continued in
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force subject to any appropriate adjustment in respect of family allowances. In addition, in past cases a workman who is deemed to be unemployable as the result of an injury will be able to claim from the fund a personal supplement to the existing weekly payment of 10s. This will apply irrespective of the date of the injury. A point on which there has been some misapprehension is whether the scheme prejudices the right of the workmen to take common law proceedings. The scheme does not alter the workman's common law rights at all. There is a committee sitting under Sir Walter Monckton which is examining the whole complex problem of alternative remedies.
Mr. S. O. Davies: Will my right hon. Friend state the terms of reference to the Committee?
Mr. Morrison: My hon. Friend will see them at the end of the White Paper.
Mr. Davies: It is not clear in the White Paper.
Mr. Morrison: They are described in the White Paper and they ought to be clear, but my right hon. Friend will inform the House about that later on. There may be criticisms of detail but I think there is likely to be little dispute about the main principles of the scheme.
I may be asked whether in these new circumstances employers will be more negligent about the prevention of accidents. I think that employers as a whole have enormously improved over the last 50 years or so in respect of their efforts to prevent industrial accidents, and a great deal has been done by associations of one sort and another. The trade unions have played their part, and they are much more powerful now in watching these matters. I agree that there must be a particular effort to see that there is no slacking in this respect, but there is no need to apprehend any danger from this point of view. There will probably be criticism of the scales of benefit, particularly the 35s. a week allowance in the first 13 weeks for a single man. Judging by previous Debates, and what I have heard, we may hear about this.
I should have liked to go higher, but there has to be some relationship between these benefits and those under Part I. If we are not careful we shall have Part I

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and Part II chasing each other around. There has to be some relationship between the two. Naturally I should like to go higher but there must be some actuarial basis. Benefits must be related to contributions, and the Government could not increase these benefits without throwing out of gear the whole scale of benefits provided in the scheme and upsetting the relationship with the social insurance benefits. If the single workman's rate in the first 13 weeks is put up from 35s., this must have an effect on all the other benefits paid, unless we are to create an anomaly at the bottom. Thirty-five shillings happens, too, to be the rate for civilian war injuries, and I have not found it easy to make a case for a higher rate for industrial casualties. The scheme is an insurance scheme, and the 35s. rate can be regarded as not ungenerous for an insurance scheme for the interim period before the workman returns to work or qualifies for a pension. In any case after the 13 weeks the 35s. will go up to 40s.
I think I have now been over the ground covered by the White Paper. We have sought to review the whole history of workmen's compensation and to utilise all the practice and experience which the Home Office, employers, trade unions and others have acquired in bringing the system up to date. We believe that the Government's proposals represent a material advance in the organisation of workmen's compensation. That, I think, will be generally agreed, whatever else may be said. We shall welcome the contributions of hon. Members to the Debate, their views will be taken fully into account, and there will, of course, be discussions with outside interests of all sorts who must be heard and whose views will also be considered. I earnestly trust that at the end of the Parliamentary Debate and of the discussions outside it may he possible to introduce a Measure which will bring about great, far-reaching and beneficial changes in this important field of social administration.
Dr. Haden Guest: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the fact that he has mentioned rehabilitation and the way in which it is integrated with the whole question, it would not be desirable to have a representative of the Ministry of Health present on the Front Bench? The whole matter depends upon rehabilitation.
Mr. Morrison: I think that is a matter for the Ministry of Labour rather than the Ministry of Health, and I will see what can be arranged.
1.16 p.m.
Mr. David Grenfell: I feel that I ought to congratulate the Home Secretary on his very comprehensive statement, which enabled him to cover almost every point that arises in the series of changes proposed in this White Paper. He not only managed to give a full explanation of the various points, but managed to pass compliments to his Department, and to other people who had been engaged in the preparation of this scheme, and also to the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir W. Beveridge) for the contribution that he has made to this part of the social insurance scheme which the right hon. Gentleman now wholeheartedly recommends to the House. I am glad that the Home Secretary has invited Members who have criticisms to make to make them freely, and I hope they will avail themselves of the opportunity so that, when the scheme leaves the House, it will carry the imprint of the House of Commons on it and not merely the impression of people outside the House who have made their contributions in good faith towards a solution of this large problem of guaranteeing social security to our people. This is all a very important part of social security.
When I heard the Minister refer to the pre-1897 conditions, it occurred to me that I should say something about my first connection with this important problem. I began to work underground 51 years ago, when there was no workmen's compensation, and no liability on the part of anybody to pay compensation in respect of workmen who lost their lives or their health, or who were maimed or disabled in the course of their employment. I remember hearing the promises that were made in those days. These were then political questions which reached to the depths of the coal pits, and were talked about in the mining villages and in places where people foregathered to discuss their common problems. I remember, too, the names of the leaders in politics who were prominent on those questions. The great Mr. Gladstone was very present in the minds of the people in those areas, and there was Mr. Asquith, who made two attempts to change the law in regard

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to employers' liability, but found that neither would work satisfactorily. Then there was Mr. Joseph Chamberlain, who has been quoted by the Minister to-day, and who was quoted on many occasions in political discussions in my early teens. In his Radical days he was a political hero in my family, and I remember the great expectations that we had then. We lived in "Bleak House" in those days in regard to social security, and we had "Great Expectations" from Parliament.
I remember that one of the most promising things that came over the horizon into the gloomy recesses of the mines and the places associated with mining were the promises of Joseph Chamberlain, who held the view that the employers should have some measure of responsibility for the losses occasioned to men injured in their employment. I would trespass on time unduly if I recalled the time which I knew so well, when, as a boy, my mind received impressions, which have never been eradicated and never will be, of men injured in the course of their employment by my side and of the tragic scenes I witnessed. I remember men being maimed and carried out of the mine when there was no liability on the employers even to provide a stretcher. There was no ambulance service, and I remember the corteges that went from the far end of the mine, from the workings to the shaft bottom, and how, for miles from the pit-head, sometimes from one valley to another, the men carried their injured comrades. I took part in many of those processions. I sympathise with the Home Secretary in having to deal with this problem, for he does not know it well enough, even yet. Nor does his right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary. Neither of them knows this problem as it must be known, if full justice is to be done.
I remember the first Compensation Act of 1897. In those days the average wage of the industrial population was well below £2 a week, and the compensation provided was 20s. a week for the totally incapacitated person. It was the first recognition by employers and society of the people who produced the national wealth. That 20s. would be continued for the whole of a man's life if he was totally and permanently incapacitated. There was a scale of partial disablement payment, which was based on the same prin-
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ciple as for total disablement, which was that the workman would not lose more than half of his earnings or of the difference between his pre-accident and post-accident earnings. I remember men who were injured living on 20S. a week for many years. That scale did not change between 1898 and 1917, when, owing to the increase in the cost of living or the inflation of the currency, the benefit was raised to 25s. In 1919 it was raised to 35s. Then a shabby thing happened. In 1925 it was cut down again to 30s., the Government taking advantage of a temporary tendency to deflation to reduce the compensation nearly to the 1917 level. It was then felt to be vastly inferior to the 20s. of the original Act.
In the 45 years that have passed since that Act the pound has ceased to be a golden coin. Following the Boer War there was a partial inflation of 16 per cent. The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed will remember the discussions we had then. Then came the great war and a vast inflation, which we have now embodied in our current regulations for all these purposes, so that 100 per cent. increase on 1914, is now deemed to be the standard. There has been yet further inflation. You cannot get a war without inflation and without whittling down the value of money. After three wars and 45 years of progress, the value of money has declined from the 20s. of the original pound of 1898 to somewhere between 6s. and 6s. 9d. at the present time. The purchasing power of money has declined to one-third of the purchasing power of 1898, and the 20s. a week compensation of 1898 was equal in purchasing power to £3 to-day. If we are not to be retrograde and if we are to build up social security, why should we fix a level lower than that of 45 years ago? When we discuss this point the first thing that occurs to me is the problem of adequacy. Why should we make all these preparations; why should we rally to our aid all the various interests of this country; why should we discard so much of what is old, and substitute so much of what is new if, at the end of it all, the injured workman, whether his period of incapacity is short or long, is to be worse off than he was at the beginning of the century?
I would like to say a word about the right of the injured workman to a higher

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rate than anybody else. I was very fortunate in my career in the mines. During my 23 years' work there I had pride in my capacity to take the most dangerous jobs, as many men had, and I have gone through all these mining occupations without suffering incapacity. I have had many benefits of all kinds, but only two weeks' sickness and injury benefit during the whole time. My father worked 42 years in the mines and was then killed. I do not think he received any compensation throughout his life. My mother had to depend on the compensation paid to her on the loss of a good man, a man of whom the nation could be proud. For the remainder of her days she had only £300 compensation. The benefits for injury and death have never been good enough. In this White Paper if a woman is left a widow under 50, she may get 20s. a week until she reaches 50, when she can get a higher level. That means that if she goes on living in the house which she shared with her husband, for which they had to pay more than 20s. rent, she will not get, under these proposals, even the rent of her house.
It is not an accident that more men are killed in the mines than in any other industry. Next in order of risk and danger are the docks, and the next the railways. With hardly more than 5 per cent. of the insured employable persons working in the mines, the mines have at least one-third of all the industrial accidents and one-half of the fatal accidents. It is not right to ask men to go to work in those conditions without the prospect of higher compensation. Why did Parliament deal with workmen's compensation at all? If men wish to take the risk, and if they have a pride in their skill and capacity to overcome the dangers, we have no right to give them only the same compensation allowances as those paid to anybody who may have been careless and heedless and has played no part in building up national life and dies at the same stage of life as a man who has spent 25 years' in hard work underground. I do not think that that is arguable. I hope that this House will finally satisfy itself on this point by saying that the person who has been injured in the course of his employment, and the dependants of those killed while following their dangerous occupations in the mine or on the dockside, should not suffer for the whole of their lives thereafter in consequence.
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We start there. I would say something else. We are not getting in the present proposals the equivalent of the benefits we obtained in the first Workmen's Compensation Act, 1898. We are going back, and if we go back much farther we shall, at this rate, meet ourselves coming back one of these days. It is a great misuse of Debate in this House unless we say these things plainly. The compensation proposed is not related to the actual wages. The average wage for this country has gone up from something under £2,45 years ago, to more than £5 at the present time. Why have the wages gone up? Because of inflation, which the workman cannot control, and against which he must defend himself by his trade union organisation, which asks for more wages to meet the increased cost of living. The cost of living goes up through no fault of the workman. He is compensated by being given larger wages. When the workman ceases to work, the cost of living goes up round him like a wall, and he feels himself getting lower and lower in the circle of his circumstances, and he actually has to get less compensation, because no award will be possible, under the scheme, to grant additions to meet the increased cost of living.
We are now at the apex of inflation—are we? Suppose inflation goes higher, and we fix the rates now; what shall we do then? Shall we raise the benefits because the cost of living has gone up? That is a problem for Ministers on the Front Bench, and a question for them to answer. Is it proposed in their scheme that scales of benefits can be raised five years from now, if the cost of living has gone up 20 or 30 per cent.? I do not know, but I cannot be easy about this scheme. I do not think the White Paper proposals meet the case at all. We have to recast not only the figures but many of our ideas relating to this matter, before we take the responsibility of cramping down the standard of living for large numbers of our people in the years that lie ahead.
I have given the best years of my life to the mining industry, with which I am in consequence very familiar. I will never get such years again to give to anything. I remember people saying, back in 1898: "We cannot give more than £1 a week, and that will cost 3d. per ton." That was the argument, and newspapers, chambers of commerce and owners' representatives all said that the industry could not afford the benefits proposed in the original Act.

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From 1898 to this date, 6,000,000 men have been injured in the mines of this country. Sometimes men have been injured two or three times. More than 50,000 lives have been lost, of comrades, relatives and friends, whom we knew so well. Their dependants have been impoverished, while many of the 6,000,000 have been injured and disabled for varying periods, during which they could not get a proper scale of benefits, because that might cost 3d. per ton. Perhaps the House will be surprised to know that over the whole of this period the employers are assumed to have paid workmen's compensation at an average rate of a fraction under 3d. a ton.
The employers said they could not pay 3d. a ton. Here is another point I want to raise. The employer said, "I pay this," but who does pay this contribution? I would say that it is he who works and produces, whether it is coal, machinery, or food. It is production that pays the cost of insurance and of compensation. Although the employers say that they pay the 3d., when we came to negotiate with the employers a new system of apportioning wages we found that the owners always put the 3d. a ton for workmen's compensation as an item of cost and we had to acknowledge it. We found, from 1921 onwards, that although the owners nominally paid the cost of compensation, we had to pay even the lawyers and doctors employed by the owners. In that 3d. a ton was included not only compensation paid to men for personal injuries but payments to dependants of those who were killed and all the owners' costs even when opposing workmen's claims.
I never believe in using this House to inculcate class division or class hatred, but those are facts. In the whole of the period the compensation, which was to cost too much because it stood at a figure of 3d. per ton in the balance sheet, was paid, but never a word was said, even during the most lean years, about the 6d. a ton paid to a handful of royalty owners. Over the whole industry, more than £6,000,000 per annum was collected from owners over the whole industry, upon an average output of 240,000,000 tons a year. The time came when this House thought it was not good to go on paying royalties at that rate and decided that it should stop. What did this House do? In the full light of its knowledge of the details
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and the incidence of ownership upon working costs, this House took the burden largely away from the industry and paid, to 4,000 landowners, compensation in a lump sum of £64,500,000 and very little was said about it.
One cannot determine who has paid the cost here and who has paid the cost there, but certainly the workman who produces coal or who works in a dangerous and hazardous trade, has made his full contribution, and I resent the idea that the workman is to be asked for the first time to make a contribution in addition to the State contribution. I do not think there is a case for putting this heavier burden upon the men employed in the industry until there is at least a corresponding increase in benefits for those men. On the other hand, we are facing the prospect of paying him lower benefits.
I know many hon. Friends want to speak on this matter, and therefore I do not want to talk for too long, but I want the House to look at this matter fairly and squarely. If anybody believes that a substitution of legal processes by an ad hoc tribunal will solve the problems in this direction I must say that I gravely dissent from them. I warn the House against discarding the present arrangements. The House of Lords, sitting as a judicial organisation, as Law Lords, has played a very important part in the determination of those arrangements and of the point of difference that must arise in the administration of a service of this kind. I say without hesitation that in the 45 years from 1898 to this day, 90 per cent. of the verdicts and the findings of the House of Lords have been in the workmen's favour. The House of Lords has safeguarded the benefits, and made them more easily accessible and available; now it is proposed to take all that away. I know it is a dangerous thing to say in advance, but I want the Home Office to be very much on their guard against over-simplification in this matter.
Let me summarise what I am trying to say. The first point I want to make is that I want to remove the 13 weeks' disqualification, so that the workman will get his full benefit from the first week. Secondly, I want a rate of payment to the person regarded as temporarily disabled to be fixed at no less than the figure given in the White Paper, subject to a

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condition that his total receipts in compensation shall not be less than two-thirds of his weekly earnings, ascertained on the average of three years. I take into account children's allowances because, by and large, they make up nearly the other one-third, in large families. I want the family of the workman who is injured to live just as well during his injury as when he is at work. Thanks to the great effort of the hon. Member for the English Universities (Miss Rath-bone) we have to pay the workman an allowance for his children. The large family whose father is in employment will get additional income because of the addition of children's allowances. I want the person who has been injured to have the full advantage of children's allowances and to have, for himself, his wife and the first child, at least two-thirds of the average earnings within three years.
I want another thing. I want a real, definite entity to be set up. I do not know how the responsibility will be shared between the various Departments or how long it will take to build up a body to be responsible not only for compensation and for accidents, but for the prevention of accidents. Knowing the mining industry as I do, I say it is possible to cut down enormously the number of people injured or killed in the industry. A high proportion of people will suffer from silicosis and nystagmus. I remember the horror that nystagmus brought to the people in the industry. In those days we were working with a safety lamp showing one quarter of a candle power, but today we have lights which are 10 times as strong, and nystagmus is on the decline. I want lives and health to be saved by the efforts of a body appointed specially for that purpose. I want attention to dust conditions and the development of industrial hygiene in all industries.
My fourth point is that I want a medical service to be provided for the injured workman, whatever neglect may lie elsewhere on the part of the person himself or of those with whom he lives. When the workman is injured and becomes in-capacitated he should be taken to a hospital and treatment should follow of the right kind. My fifth point is that I want special industries to be set up under the auspices of the State where certain operations can be carried on by disabled men, to a far greater degree than is to be found in ordinary industries. Those five points
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will make a contribution to the kind of general picture we have to work out for the mining industry in the future. The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed is here. I will pay my tribute to him. I have known him, not in the flesh, for nearly 40 years. I know what good work he has done. I know what an impetus his Report has given to thought upon these problems. I know how much can be done if we harness that impetus. I thank him for what he has done, and I hope that his purpose and his plan will be promoted by what this House does on this subject.
1.46 p.m.
Mr. Colegate: I should like to re-echo the words of the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) and express the very great feeling of gratitude I have towards the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir W. Beveridge), for having brought up this question in such a form that there was no option for any Government but to legislate upon the Report which he produced. I welcome very much indeed the Government's White Paper on this subject. It is possible to take a different point of view, and when this matter first came forward I, with many other people, went very carefully into this matter. I had the opportunity of discussing the matter in a small informal committee, on which the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) gave us the benefit of a great deal of his excellent advice and experience.
Mr. George Griffiths: What committee was this?
Mr. Colegate: Just a small subcommittee of the Social Services Committee. It was a very good thing, and I am quite sure the hon. Member would wish to promote such social services committees, which do a great deal of useful preliminary work, before we debate these matters in this House. One of the main reasons why I have come down on the side of the Government scheme is that I think that it will help to promote the smooth working of industry. The accusations which could be brought against employers in connection with disputes about workmen's injuries were undoubtedly a source of friction. The fact that the vast majority of the employers contracted out, as it were, by the use of the insurance company was an advantage to the workpeople in many ways, because it provided a more secure financial back-

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ground, in the case of smaller and weaker firms, to ensure that compensation should be paid. None the less it led to a worsening of the relations between employers and workpeople, for this reason; whereas, and I am glad to say that this is so, the relations between employers and work-people in this country are on the whole very pleasant, and whereas in many cases which I might call hard cases, but which are not necessarily covered by the law, the employer would be perfectly willing to pay a reasonable compensation, whether it be called ex gratia or not does not matter, he would be prevented by the terms of his contract with the insurance company from so doing. This was so because the insurance company had to protect their funds and had to provide benefits for which premiums had been paid on a certain ascertained scale. Therefore, the insurance companies were bound, by their very conditions of existence, to adhere strictly to the law. Therefore, they disputed in the name of particular employers cases which those employers themselves would not have disputed at all. That is an inevitable result of insurance against workmen's compensation. It led at times to accusations which were ill-founded but which were very natural, and which most of the workpeople would certainly have taken to be evidence of lack of generosity on the part of the employers.
Under this scheme that will be done away with. The decision will no longer rest with the employer, or with an agent of the employer, to dispute a case. It will be decided by a national authority. In my opinion that will be of very great advantage to the smooth working of industry. Not only that, but the change is in keeping with the changed mentality that now prevails. A great many years ago, when this matter was started, there was a tremendous amount of argument and a great concentration of interest on whose fault an accident was. The question of fault was very much in evidence in the Victorian era. People had a great deal of regard to moral considerations, instead of thinking, as we do now, more about how the situation can best be remedied, and the man rehabilitated and got back to work, which I venture to think is to us of infinitely more importance than the question of through whose fault the accident arose. That is an indication of the change that has come over the scene. That, again,
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is clearly helped by this new scheme, for the question of fault is no longer in evidence, the question of the amount to be paid is not to be disputed between employers or their agents and workpeople, and we can get on with the work of caring for the dependants and rehabilitating the man in the case if industrial injury.
While I heartily welcome this scheme I have very considerable doubts on the question of benefit, and I want to approach that question from a point of view which was dealt with very largely by the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed in his Report, but which has not been discussed, except in a couple of sentences in the Debate last week, that is the question of rent allowances. Every scheme of this kind throughout the whole world provides for a varying rent allowance according to the rent paid by the injured party. That matter has been discussed extremely ably by the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed as one of three main special problems. I am surprised we have not heard more about it in this Debate. The whole question of benefit rate ought to be discussed, and in my opinion it ought to be related to some extent to the question of rent. In paragraphs 193 to 206 of the Beveridge Report it is very carefully and ably discussed, as one might expect, but curiously enough the provisional decision, and the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed admits it is only a provisional decision, is against a rent allowance, though I think any fair-minded person reading that Report would say that the arguments given are really in favour of some rent allowance.
Before I deal with that I wish to make a further point. When the Beveridge Report was written the housing situation, as I shall show in a few minutes, was nothing like so serious as it is to-day. The facts and figures in the Report are mainly based on the figures for rent given for the years 1937 and 1938 in the Board of Trade Report, and in Mr. Rowntree's Report on York in 1936. It is no use thinking that the rent situation for many working-class people to-day is anything like what it was in 1936. Let me run over the figures briefly. I will not detain the House for long, but this very important question has not been discussed to any extent so far. In the Report of the hon. Member the figure taken is 10s. to 12s. a week. Various averages are given. Mr. Rowntree's

1417
figures are slightly under 10s. I am quite willing to take 10s. or 12s, for the moment, but the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed points out that rent is a form of expenditure which even in normal times does not allow of very quick methods of adjustment, and not only that but when earnings are interrupted that is the one thing one cannot postpone, and cannot make any economy on in one's ordinary living expenses.
When one is unemployed and has not got as much money as usual one starts to make all sorts of economies. For a short period it is possible to make remarkable economies without serious interference with the standard of subsistence by postponing expenditure on clothing and things like that. But rent has to be paid. This is a very serious difficulty; especially as at present one cannot get alternative accommodation. It has been difficult for some years Ito do that, but it is very much more difficult to-day. This question of rent bears to a large extent upon the question of subsistence. The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed says:
"If benefit is to be related to needs, the case for adjusting it, if possible, to the actual rent paid, is very strong."
I take that as a very strong argument indeed for what I am going to urge, namely, that some additional rent allowance should be paid, at any rate during a certain period. I come next to this argument; I will not go through them all, but the hon. Member raised this argument. He said:
"Questions are raised as to whether rents above the average represent the wishes or the necessities of those who pay them."
If there was an ample supply of houses or even a slight margin, the rent paid would undoubtedly in most respects represent the wishes of the person concerned. If there was an ample supply of houses at 10s. or 12s. a week, and someone chooses to pay 15s. or £1 a week because they prefer a larger house, or wish to have a garden, it is up to them to do so, and they can have no complaint. My point is that that is not the position at the present time. The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed saw that, but his conclusions were that provisionally he was against a rent allowance for this reason:
"The real remedy is a concentrated housing drive."
1418
That is all very well. I think that a concentrated housing drive is wanted. Everyone in the House is pressing for that, but it will not deal with the present rent situation.
Let me give one or two instances. I give them because they come, not from London, not from a great industrial city, but East Shropshire. The position in a place like East Shropshire to-day is very largely conditioned by the position in London. Very large numbers of work-people have left London at the Government's request, partly for evacuation reasons, partly because industry had to be dispersed throughout the country, and it was necessary to house workpeople in different parts of the country other than those in which they were ordinarily accustomed to live. What is the position? In one case a man, his wife and child came to Shropshire, having been evacuated from London. They found it desperately difficult to get accommodation but at last got accommodation, with food, at £3 3s. a week. They can pay that at the moment because the man is, I understand, earning rather over £7 a week.
It may be said, "That is all very well; when that war work is closed down, the man will go back to London and pay his 15s. a week, or whatever the amount is." But he cannot do that. Will anyone tell me that at any time within the next five years a man will be able to come into London from the country, and find a house at 15s. a week? Not merely is the situation extremely bad in London, but that situation there has fixed rents all over the country at an extraordinarily high level, and the people will be powerless to do anything about it for some years. Let us take the case of a man paying 30s. a week—not £3 3s. I have scores of such cases in my constituency. What are they to do if they meet with industrial injury, and get the scale of benefit which is laid down here? They will not have enough to feed themselves.
The Minister Designate of Social Security alluded to this question. He said, "There is, of course, the Assistance Board." That is true; but if the whole rent situation is going to render nugatory a large part of the benefits under this scheme, why make those people go through the annoying business of having to appeal to the Assistance Board? Why not give a rent allowance now? I sug-

1419
gest that this scheme should be provisional for five years; at the end of that time we shall see whether the housing situation has improved. I suggest, secondly, that the rent allowance should be based on a proportion of the increase of rent over what we may take as the standard rent. Suppose we take the standard rent at 12s., and a man is actually paying 24s. I suggest that two-thirds of that excess of 12s., or some such proportion, should be paid, as a matter of right, in order that anybody who is landed in this difficulty should have, as a right, some reasonable contribution towards the extraordinary rent situation in which he finds himself. That, as the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir W. Beveridge) points out, would be a considerable advance towards making the rate given a reasonable subsistence rate, because it would get over the rent difficulty. Of course, I am talking of special circumstances.
People may say, "Why five years?" Is there anyone who thinks that within five years of the date of the commencement of this Act houses will be freely available at reasonable rents? I doubt it. We have an enormous building programme in front of us; and I do not want to exaggerate, but I think that hundreds of thousands of people will find themselves let in for high rents for houses which they agreed to take temporarily, when they were getting high earnings, but which they were unable to leave when their high earnings disappeared, because there were no vacant houses. I appeal to the Government to try to make some sort of addition in the way of a partial contribution towards high rents. It may be said, "Why bother? If there is any hardship, the people will go to the Assistance Board." But we know that a great many people do not like going to the Assistance Board. We were told by the Government that one of the advantages of this scheme was that it would avoid people having to go to the Assistance Board in a great many cases. Do not let all these people be distressed by this question of rent. Let us tell them now that, in addition to the scheme, there will be, during the first five years, or any period after that which may be fixed by this House, an allowance to compensate people who are placed in the position of having to pay exceptionally high rents,
1420
and who are unable to find alternative accommodation at a more reasonable rate. If that is done, it will give, for hundreds of thousands of people, the finishing touch to what is on the whole a very fine scheme. There is an old saying "Do not spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar ": do not spoil this scheme by failing to face the fact that there will be very serious difficulties about rent. Let us bring in a scheme now which will not only attack the problem of want, but which will reduce the anxiety of hundreds of thousands of people who should benefit under the scheme.
2.7 p.m.
Mr. Tom Brown: It is not my intention to follow the arguments advanced by the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Colegate), particularly in his advocacy of rent allowances. It has been admitted by the Home Secretary that the whole scheme is complicated and confusing, and if we begin to introduce rent allowances into the subject of compensation the confusion will become worse confounded. In the Debate last week the Government were given some very perplexing advice. The hon. Member for Chislehurst (Sir W. Smithers) advised them not to embark upon the march towards social reform. If I may say so, in passing, his was the most reactionary speech I have heard for a very long time. Then we had a speech from the hon. Member for Faversham (Sir A. Maitland) advising the Government, if they did embark on the march towards social reform, not to rush it. Then the hon. Member for the English Universities (Miss Rath-bone) said, "Be quick on the job, and get moving." Then there was the advice given by the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. G. White), who said that the Government had adopted the words of Robert Louis Stevenson, that it was "better to travel hopefully than to arrive." I was perplexed about how to reconcile the advice given by those four hon. Members. On the contents of this White Paper, if I may be permitted to give advice, in a very humble way, to the Government, my advice is, "March on; keep a bright look-out forward; and good luck to you." Those are the words of Charles Dickens. But, as we march on to a better state of affairs for the injured workman, we must be extremely careful that we do not leave any wounded

1421
by the wayside. We must face up to our obligations to those who have carried on industry for over a century. We shall have to play our part nobly and well in assisting to keep the wheels of industry moving.
Part II of the White Paper is now before the House. We have to see to what extent we can bring out of that White Paper greater benefits to our injured workmen than they have been given hitherto. It is true that the White Paper has novel features, and introduces new principles. The first new principle is the removal of employers' liability, under the existing Workmen's Compensation Acts. That is a very desirable thing, which we have been advocating for a very long time. The second principle is a direct contributory scheme. It is a matter of argument whether it should be a contributory scheme, and I have an open mind on the question; but, so long as we claim higher benefits for our men, we must apply our minds to the machinery which will be necessary. The third principle is that the scheme fixes the scale of benefits without regard to earnings. It would have been a good thing if that principle had been in existence when we were passing through the industrial storm between 1918 and 1926, when our men were on the rock bottom of earning capacity. The fourth principle is the assessment of industrial compensation without regard to the disabled man's pre-accident occupation. That is a very desirable principle, if correctly applied. The fifth principle is to abolish the heavy litigation costs which have characterised workmen's compensation cases. I have always held the view that the injured workman has been in the hands of two professions: the legal profession and the medical profession. I am glad to see the dawn of a new day, when these heavy litigation costs are coming to an end.
This White Paper is an admission by the Government that the workmen's compensation laws are out of date and require overhauling. That was said by the Home Secretary, in his opening speech. We welcome that admission, and we welcome the desire of the Government, which is shown in the White Paper and which I hope will be shown in subsequent legislation. I hope that the Government will pay due regard to the many suggestions which will be made from these benches,
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particularly those made from the standpoint of the mining industry. The Home Secretary said, and I believe he was serious, that there were many hon. Members on these benches who were experts on matters of compensation. Our expert knowledge has been obtained largely as a result of having so many thousands of cases to deal with, and it is in the light of that experience that, when legislation comes before this House, we shall be able to put points of view which will assist the Home Secretary in his desire to assemble, once and for all, a compensation law which will stand the test of time.
It is true to say that we are living in very momentous and eventful days, days when the social conscience of every individual should be awakened to a keen sense of responsibility. I was delighted to hear the Home Secretary say that, on broad principles, every man and every woman in the community should play their part towards the compensation to be paid to the injured workers. Let us remember, also, to-day and in the days which lie ahead, the fact that the way we act will either mould or mar the destiny of the rising generation. Let us remember, in our approach to this very important question, that individual responsibility is the corner-stone of democracy, and that if, by our actions, we dislodge that corner-stone, then the edifice of democracy will tumble down.
Perhaps I may be pardoned if I dwell for a moment on the importance of compensation of mine workers. Having spent at least 35 years of my time in the mines—I cannot go as far as the hon. Member for Gower (Mc. Grenfell)—and having had five or six years' practical, day-to-day experience in dealing with compensation cases, I hope hon. Members will excuse this reference. It is not that I want the mining industry to be singled out, but anyone so interested and engrossed in an industry does embark upon some references to it. One of the most burning grievances in the mining industry is the question of the payment and treatment of injured workmen. I hope I shall not be misunderstood when I make this statement. Compensation to the mine workers is almost as important as weekly wages. It is a remarkable and undeniable fact that, on the average, every man working in the mining industry is compensatable for accident every five years. We have a

1423
tragically large number of men disabled for life, and, year after year, our pits bear witness, amongst their workers, to the need for great reforms in the existing compensation law, which has been bad from every angle. I challenge hon. Members opposite, or hon. Members on this side of the House, to point me to a single case or piece of legislation which has given to the injured workman what he has been justly entitled to receive. The rates of compensation, right from the commencement, have been extremely low. The injured workmen have to go through a period of legal wrangling and successive examinations by insurance companies and their doctors, which, in my opinion, is not calculated to bring an injured workman back to health.
It is not my intention to weary the House with figures over many years of the mining industry. This ground has been amply covered by the hon. Member for Gower, but I want to remind this House that accidents in the mines are not diminishing. This may be due to war strain and to other factors, but the fact is that they are increasing. In 1939, there were 134,855 men injured in the mines, causing absence from work for a period of over three days. In the same year there were 783 miners killed. In 1941 there were 159,370 injured miners, and 925 miners killed. In 1942 there were 166,639 miners injured, and 877 miners killed. The Home Secretary, when he referred to the casualties of industry, alluded to the 2,000 men and women killed in industry during the last year. I want to submit that almost half the number of those killed were in the mining industry. I cannot leave this matter without making some reference to the colossal inroads which industrial diseases are having upon the personnel of the mines. Silicosis, pneumoconiosis, dermatitis, and that terrible disease known as miners' nystagmus—all these are factors which we must keep before our eyes in our consideration of the legislation which, I hope, will follow this White Paper.
I want to suggest to the Home Secretary and his Department that the rates now offered are far too low. That is the first point. Can we expect a man who mow may be receiving £5 a week, and who sustains an accident, to fall back from the standard of £5 to the standard of 35s.? Is that conducive to assisting that man's
1424
recovery? My next point—and if the Department do not deal with it in the forthcoming legislation, they will hear more about it—is that I could never understand why the first 13 weeks for an injured man should be on a lesser rate of compensation than the following weeks. There is no logic about it. I recall the time when I met with an accident and had a broken limb in the pit. I had to "play" three weeks before I could get one week's compensation. I could never understand it, but it was the law of the land. For three weeks, I had to exist on 13s., which was the rate of compensation in those days. I had to "play" three weeks before I could get a week's compensation, so that I had to live for two weeks on the air. The 13 weeks business, in my judgment, will not stand the application of logic, and it is about time the Home Office made up their minds that, when a man is injured, compensation should be payable as and from the day of the accident.
My second point is that the single man, with dependant's allowance, is to receive 43s. 9d. for the first 13 weeks. Almost throughout the whole of the suggested scale of benefits in the 'terms of the White Paper, there is before us this 13 weeks. May I appeal to the Home Office, and to those responsible for this White Paper, to get out of their minds this business of 13 weeks, or even three days, and to lay down that, if a man has had the misfortune to suffer an accident—and terrible some of them are—that man is entitled to a decent standard of life from the day of the accident onwards?
I want to put two questions to the Under-Secretary. In the course of his speech, the Home Secretary expressed his regret that it had not been found possible to incorporate in the White Paper what are known to us in the mining industry as the pre-1924 cases. I have been obsessed with the position of these men for a long number of years, and I want to appeal to the Home Secretary, even at this stage, to see whether it is not possible to bring them in. The right hon. Gentleman did say that they would be entitled to the 10s. pension. I ask the Under-Secretary: Will the injured pre-1924 man get the 10s., irrespective of age, of income and of means of income? A further question is: Will the injured workman get the 10s. without serving a qualifying period of 13 weeks? These are two very important

1425
questions which relate to the pre-1924 cases.
In conclusion, I hope that, as the days go by and legislation is presented to this House, we shall not have any animosity or bickering, but that the Home Office will respond to the pleas from this side of the House in order to obtain better conditions for our injured workmen. I think the concluding paragraph of the Foreword to this White Paper sums up what is the right atmosphere. It says:
"The new plan will avoid the main weaknesses and difficulties of the existing system. The Government believe that it will remove workmen's compensation from the atmosphere of controversy and conflict with which it has been surrounded and will establish it for the future on a happier—"
I like the word "happier"—
"—and sounder foundation."
Then the Government makes this declaration:
"It is their intention if the scheme commends itself to Parliament, to introduce and pass the necessary legislation as soon as practicable with a view to bringing it into operation at the same time as the general scheme of social insurance."
That is a remarkable conclusion to a very important Foreword, and I hope that, as we have in the past been tinkering with the business, we shall now go forward, and in the words of Dickens, "Keep a bright look-out forward, and good luck to you."
2.30 p.m.
Mr. Quintin Hogg: This House is commonly indulgent to those who have the misfortune not to agree with the opinion of the majority and feel it their duty to explain fully and frankly the difficulties which they feel. Hitherto the speeches in this Debate have come from hon. Members who, upon the whole, have welcomed this scheme and who agree in the main with the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary that this is a revolutionary advance. I regret to have to say it—for it would have been a great joy to me to welcome a scheme of this kind—but I have come to the conclusion that this is not an advance at all. It is a false step, and I do beg of hon. Members, before finally tying themselves to the scheme, to consider the grounds upon which I hold that conviction. I wish to say, since I have been privileged to speak from these benches
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so early in the Debate, that I speak for no one except myself. It is not, as far as I know, the view of my party or of the committee of which I am chairman. It is simply my conviction that this scheme represents a false step from which it will be impossible to step back.
To some extent I am fortified by the arguments which have come from the opposite side of the House. I refer in particular to the eloquent speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell) and to the speech of the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown) to which we have listened with very much pleasure and attention. They both seemed to realise that there is something wrong with this scheme, that they are not getting enough from it. But what they do not see is, that it is the principle of the scheme which makes the benefits insufficiently good. As long as the principle is accepted, the improvements for which they ask are incapable of being given. I want to say too, that I shall rely only on argument. There will be no adverse vote; there will be no obstruction or opposition. If my reasons prove inadequate and unpersuasive, no one will be more pleased than I, but if, on the other hand, hon. Members do think that there is something in it, I beg of them and of the Government to think again before pressing on with this scheme. I am wholly at one with those who maintain that the pre-war system of workmen's compensation was obsolete and had been obsolete for many years. There are many features of our law which give legitimate pride to lovers of their country. This was not one of them. Broadly speaking, in 1939 we were behind almost every other civilised country in the world. Nearly every civilised country in the world gave to the injured workman two-thirds of his pre-accident earnings, with, at any rate, a very generous maximum. We, almost alone, gave one-half and, almost alone, imposed a maximum of 30s. which, in comparison with other countries, was less than generous. In addition to that, other countries gave medical benefit, medical appliances and rehabilitation services, none of which was available under the terms of our scheme. For these reasons, I would welcome a change which really marked an advance upon what must necessarily be regarded as out-of-date and obsolete.

1427
I only ask: Is this a real advance; is it a step in the right direction? And I come straightaway to the core of the matter, which is, benefits. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, in introducing the White Paper, prided the Government upon the principle of administration which they had adopted, and other hon. Members have commended him for it. But I submit to the House this proposition. If it can be proved that this much-praised principle is responsible for the benefits being too low and that another principle will give better benefits, then the principle of the White Paper must go, and the benefits must be increased. What are the benefits proposed by the Government's White Paper? A workman who is 100 per cent. incapacitated is to receive not a proportion of his earnings, but 40s. a week. I am aware that should he be married before the accident, although not if he marries after the accident, he is entitled to a wife's allowance; that if he has a first child born before the accident, but not if he has a first child born after the accident, he is entitled to 7s. 6d. a week. I am also aware that, if in addition to being 100 per cent, incapacitated he is also unemployable, he gets an additional 10s. a week and he is allowed to marry and have a first child after the accident and thereby gain the benefits for them. But one is apt to fogged by these intricacies and complications. I, therefore, treat with the basic compensation of 40s. a week for a man, not married at the time of the accident who is 100 per cent. incapacitated. Is that an adequate compensation for a man?
I beg the House to consider that we are not dealing here with a temporary incapacity, like sickness, from which a man necessarily may be expected to recover and be able to work again. We are not dealing with a universal affliction like old age against which, in a period of full employment, he might be expected to make some provision in addition to that provided by the social scheme. We are dealing with a casualty—a thing which might happen to any one of us at any moment of our lives and which might prevent us from earning a living from that moment onwards, for 30 or 40 years to the end of our lives. Is 40s. enough for an unmarried man who suffers that disability? Nobody has really suggested that it is. What is the wage level going to be after
1428
the war? I am not talking now of what the hon. Member for Gower referred to as inflation, but assuming that it is perhaps £6 a week for a skilled man and £4 a week for an unskilled man, that would not be a very unfair distribution of wealth. If anything, it would err on the conservative side. What sort of compensation is £2 for a skilled labourer earning £6 a week? I submit to the House that, if this scheme is carried through, it will pauper se the injured skilled worker for a generation to come. And why should it be carried through? Compare the benefits which are now proposed under this magnificent principle of the Government with those which might be given under another scheme. Are they better or are they worse? Other civilised countries have related benefits to earnings—two-thirds of earnings, £4 for a £6 a week man. That is what other countries do. Almost every other civilised country, except certain States in the United States, Italy and Japan. It is two-thirds of earnings there. My hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Colegate) referred to a report which some of us have written. It is not a report coming from the Left. It is a report backed by some of the most responsible employers in this House. That proposes benefits which, rather to my surprise, without an upper limit, would have given to the injured workman two-thirds of his earnings, plus certain of his social insurance benefits, which is much more than is provided by the present scheme.
I am aware that we shall be told that there is a marked analogy between this and the scheme for war pensions, but there is this difference. What was the floor in the system of war pensions, becomes the ceiling for the casualties of industry. Forty shillings a week was the basic compensation for a private soldier but this rises step by step according to his pay and rank. It is not to be so in industry. That principle is now to be abandoned, and why? Because they desire to exclude the courts, and, I submit, for no other reason at all. Hon. Members opposite have asked for an increase of benefits under the present scheme. That is the very request, which I venture to predict will prove impossible. Some small adjustment may be made but it will prove impossible to grant an increase on a generous enough

1429
scale. By tying the administration of workmen's compensation to the administration of social insurance the Government have attached a millstone round the neck of the injured skilled workman which will prevent him from getting adequate benefit for a generation to come. Why? If a man loses both his legs, it does not very much alter his needs whether he lost his legs in an accident underground in a mine, or bicycling for his employer on an errand, or going on a pleasure trip to Llandudno. He has lost his legs. He cannot walk. He needs the same rehabilitation and the same medical benefit. He attends the same hospital. He is just as poor.
It may be true—and I am presently going to say it must politically be true—that the workman injured at his work shall receive a higher rate of compensation, but as long as he draws his compensation entirely from the same source as that other man, his compensation level is going to be depressed by the existing level of social insurance. As long as it is true that the man who has lost his legs in some other way, or suffered say, from infantile paralysis instead of silicosis and is thereby rendered incapacitated from work, receives 20s. a week or thereabouts as benefit you cannot greatly increase the benefit of the injured workman. For that reason when I hear hon. Members opposite ask for more than £2 a week for compensation, my heart goes out in sympathy with them, but I am bound to point out that, as long as the basic principle of the White Paper is accepted, they are certain to be refused. The only way in which you can relate compensation to earnings, which is what I believe human society all over the world has demanded for the injured workman, is to make the source from which the injured workman draws his compensation a different source from social insurance.
For that reason some of us proposed what was called, I believe, originally by the Home Office a "double-decker" scheme, under which the injured workman would receive from the State the full amount of the ordinary social insurance benefit the same as any other injured person would do; but in addition to that, he would be able to look to his employer for a sufficient sum to give him two-thirds of his pre-accident earnings. That was, broadly speaking, the suggestion. This scheme was referred to in the White Paper,
1430
and explicitly rejected for reasons which I submit to the House were wholly inadequate. The first reason suggested was that the scheme proposed by certain of my hon. Friends and myself involved the principle, described as vicious, that there would be in these compensation cases a continuity of the arguments between the man and his employer. I agree that that is an undesirable factor in these cases. It was for that reason we provided that without question that sickness benefit should be paid in any case and at once with the social insurance benefits of wife's allowance and children's allowance. But, let me remind the House of the principle to which I referred at the beginning. If it can be shown that, under the scheme proposed, better benefits are payable than are payable under the Government scheme, that is the principle of administration which the House ought to accept.
There was a second reason referred to in the White Paper why the "double-decker" scheme should be rejected. It was said that it involved a double kind of administration—first the State administration for the sickness benefits, and then administration by the employer and the insurance company for the workmen's compensation. Well, that is just, and true as well. But look what the present scheme does. Nobody suggests that this 40s. is adequate. I think it was the Home Secretary, this afternoon, who said, "Well, if for certain purposes it is not adequate, the workman can insure himself, he can rely on individual insurance." In other words, although it is not explicitly admitted, the Government really throw upon the workman exactly the same double administration which they reject themselves by giving him an inadequate basis of compensation. The only difference between the Government's proposal and the "double-decker" scheme was that in the case of the Government's proposal the protection is wholly unorganised and unprotected by any legal right whereas in the "double-decker" scheme the obligation is thrown upon the employer to insure and to pay the workman.
I leave that for another aspect of the case—the means of assessing incapacity. Under the existing law it is undoubtedly difficult to assess incapacity. It requires a difficult technical investigation in which witnesses are called and examination and cross-examination takes place. Therefore, the Government propose to abolish that

1431
system and to propose another whereby a doctor can just scribble out his certificate, and say what percentage of incapacity is to be granted. What does that mean in actual human terms? It means this. Supposing a barrister's clerk loses a hand, he can go on being a barrister's clerk. But supposing a miner loses his left hand—or anybody who uses a two-handed instrument of any sort—he cannot go on being a miner. Under the existing law, the judge takes cognisance of that fact but, under the White Paper, that will not be so. The doctor will take his pen, he will write "Loss of one hand, 20 per cent." Twenty per cent. of 40s. One-fifth of 40s. for a miner who loses his hand under the White Paper scheme. Why? What is the motive behind this? I am bound to admit, in fairness, that in view of what the Home Secretary said to-day he may perhaps get another 10s. if he is proved to be wholly unemployable, but what is behind it? Behind is simply and solely the desire to get rid of the courts.
I know that here I am on dangerous ground. I am a professional advocate, and it will therefore be said against me that I have an interest in diverting disputes into the courts. I have tried to empty my mind of any prejudice of that kind; whether I have succeeded or not, it is entirely for other people to say. However, I do say this, that if the object of excluding the courts is really to reduce the number of legitimate disputes, that is a fine and proper object to have; but if the effect, and if the intention, is to give people fewer rights, that is not quite so good. If the effect, and if the intention, is to get over some rather difficult and complicated phase of reality by imposing a totally artificial and wrong rule-of-thumb, that again is not so good, and if the fact be that in order to do justice you require a judicial inquiry, it is a poor kind of justice which tries to do it in a hole and corner fashion merely by means of administrative decision.
That leads me to my last criticism of the scheme, the system of administration. I believe it to be true that there is one canon of honour, to which all professions unswervingly adhere—the same man cannot advise two parties with divergent interests. However honest or sincere he may be he cannot serve two masters. Under this scheme, in place of the trade
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union perhaps, or in place perhaps of some scheme which we hope will be introduced by the Rushcliffe Committee, the person advising the subject is primarily a State official who is also advising the Treasury at the same time. Now he may, as the Home Secretary said, welcome the applicant into his office; he may ask him to sit down, give him a cigarette, behave to him with every kind of sympathy and courtesy, but behind that facade of perfectly genuine civility will lurk the reality that at the same time this man is advising and protecting the Treasury and advising and protecting the subject, and this is not a satisfactory method of administration. I believe that nothing will cure defects of that kind. From this little man—no doubt an excellent citizen in other respects—appeal is to lie to a tribunal composed of two laymen and a lawyer, presumably with a procedure which is simplified in order to avoid expense. From that tribunal, instead of the court of appeal with its open justice—and may I say that I was deeply impressed with what the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell) said about the courts of appeal in this country and the House of Lords—there is to be a commissioner with legal qualifications who will give decisions, presumably without argument and without assigning full or definite reasons, but at any rate without a judicial hearing in the true sense.
For these reasons, I have come to the conclusion that this scheme is irremediably faulty. I want to say, frankly, that there will be, on my part, no further opposition at all. It would not be seemly for me to try to hold up anything which either the great trade unions or the great bodies of employers agreed in saying was a desirable scheme, but I do beg that before they commit themselves to it, attention should be paid to these considerations. I should rejoice if I were wrong. I wish my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary every success in the prosecution of this scheme if I should prove to be wrong. But although I should be very glad to think that I am wrong, not one word which has been said to-day, either from the Government Bench or from any other source, has convinced me that my criticisms lack foundation.
2.55 P.m.
Sir William Beveridge: I hope that the House will not

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think it presumptuous of me to make another speech within so short a time of my maiden speech. I should not be doing so if it were not that this report which I laid as a baby on the doorstep of His Majesty's Government two years ago appears, in the invigorating air of Whitehall, to have become a twin, for, having discussed Part I last time, we are discussing Part II to-day. It is true that the twin is rather a Siamese twin; I shall do my best to make it rather more Siamese and less of a twin, and I hope that many other hon. Members will try to bring about a greater co-ordination between Part II and Part I. I shall have a few criticisms to make upon the Government plan later, but those will be minor criticisms. I should like—and I think I can speak for all the Members of my Party—to give cordial support to all the main principles of the Government White Paper, including those principles which differ from what is proposed in my Report, and including even the principle which has been attacked so vigorously by the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg). May I, before I proceed with a discussion of those principles, also associate myself with the gratitude expressed by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to the Royal Commission on Workmen's Compensation, to whose unfinished labours both he and I, as chairman of the Interdepartmental Committee on Social Insurance, owe so much?
What are the main principles of the White Paper? There are really five. The first is the form of the provision made for industrial injury. The Government propose that this provision in future should be a social service in place of resting on the individual liability of the employer, with ensuing insurance and litigation. I do not think I need say anything of the reasons for that principle. As far as I am concerned, they are all set out in paragraphs 79 to 80 of my Report, and they have been endorsed in the White Paper.
The second principle is the principle of placing the cost of this service not simply on the employer but adopting the tripartite scheme of contribution which applies to all other forms of social insurance. That is necessary, I suggest, if you want to take the administration of the scheme away from the employers; you cannot in that case leave the whole
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cost upon them. It is also necessary if you want to pool the cost of industrial injury, either wholly or largely between the industries. Since industries depend upon one another, it may be reasonable that the banking industry, or any other safe industry, should contribute to the cost of accidents in the mines. But there is no reason in the world why the banker only and not the banker's clerk as well should contribute, for the banker's clerk is as dependent as the banker upon the prosperity of his industry, which again is dependent upon mining. That is the answer which I would give to the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell). I think if you want pooling of risks between different industries, you must accept the contributory principle, and not leave the burden wholly upon the employer.
The third main principle of the Government plan is that of giving more for stoppage of industrial earnings through accident than for interruption through other causes, whether sickness or unemployment. Some people say that is unjustified, that a man's needs are just the same if he has sprained his wrist just outside the factory, as if he did it just inside the factory. There is something in that, but I suggest it does not really dispose of the need for a higher benefit for industrial injury. If I may again refer to my Report, the reasons are set out in full there, in paragraph 81. The essential reason is that the incidence of industrial injury varies greatly from one industry to another, and that if you want people voluntarily to go into a dangerous industry, you must make special provision for them.
Mr. Buchanan: Why not differentiate, then, between one dangerous industry and another industry that is not nearly so dangerous? Why not give a greater benefit in one case than the other? For instance, you put mining, for benefit purposes, on the same basis as another trade which might involve very little danger.
Sir W. Beveridge: I think the only answer is that this is an imperfect world, in which the perfect logic of my hon. Friend cannot be applied to all cases. I think you must give inducement to people to go into dangerous industry, not by giving higher wages, but by giving more money when a man is injured. Remember, it will be in the more dangerous industries

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in which a man is more likely to be injured. If you give him more money when he is injured, then I do think you give him the right attraction, the right justification for taking a dangerous job.
Mr. Buchanan: I wonder whether the hon. Member seriously thinks that by providing 5s. or 10s. a week for a miner when he is injured, you are going to attract more miners to the industry?
Sir W. Beveridge: I did not say 5s. or 10s.
Mr. Buchanan: That is in the Report.
Sir W. Beveridge: I say that much better benefits should be given for industrial injury than for other interruption of earnings. I say much better benefits, however, not for a man who just sprains his wrist and is laid up for a matter of three or four weeks, but for the man who is killed by an accident, or who suffers permanent disablement. Although I believe you ought to give higher benefits for industrial injury than for other forms of interruption of earnings, I am very doubtful whether you ought to give it for short interruptions. I do not see that there is very much difference between the man who has got a slight injury in the factory from which he is certainly going to recover in three or four weeks—from which he is just waiting to recover—and the person who has been injured outside
the factory. Why should he get more money during that interval than the person injured outside? I want to keep all the money I can for the cases that really need it. I hope my hon. Friends will agree that it is important not to give money where it is not needed, so that you may keep the maximum possible for the really dreadful cases of permanent disablement or of death.
I come now to the fourth principle, which is that of a flat rate of benefit, without reference to wages. In my Report, I suggested that that should apply to cases of injury of under 13 weeks, and that in all the other cases there should be benefit related to wages. Actually, about go per cent. of all cases last less than 13 weeks, so that you may say that I propose that in 90 per cent. of the cases there should be a flat rate of benefit, whereas the Government are now proposing that there should
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be a flat rate in 100 per cent. of the cases. That is all the difference, on that point, between what the Government propose and what is in my Report. I am prepared to accept the Government's proposal on this, subject to the introduction of the consideration of the subsistence level and the cost of living. I am quite certain that is necessary, and I hope before I have finished that I will have given them very strong reasons indeed—drawn from the discussion of Part II—for reconsidering their attitude as expressed last week on Part I towards relating benefit to the cost of living.
What is the reason for fixing this flat rate without reference to wages? If you are going to have benefits varying with wages in a contributory scheme, then you must, necessarily, go in for the complications of having different rates of contributions for different classes of the community. If, more than that, you are going in for pooling contributions with much higher rates of benefit accorded to the people who have high wages, then you are going to get into the position of people with low wages in one industry paying high contributions in order to provide benefits for the people of much larger wages than themselves in some other industry. I do not believe, as a matter of equity, that you can combine a compulsory contributory scheme with varying rates of benefits according to wages.
We come now to the fifth principle, which is entirely new and not in my Report. It is the giving of benefit for physical disability without reference to loss of earnings. That is a very new and a very important principle. On page 16 of the White Paper the Government say it is proposed
"to give benefit according to the degree of disablement due to the injury in the same way as is done under war pensions schemes, namely, through an assessment by a Medical Board of the condition of the workman resulting from the injury compared with the condition of a normal healthy person of the same age and sex."
That is an entirely new principle applied to workmen's compensation. It presents, obviously, very considerable administrative and practical difficulties. It makes everything rest ultimately on the decision of a medical board as to the degree of physical disablement. Often, particularly in cases of industrial disease, assessment in that way will be very difficult. But I very much hope it will be found to

1437
be practical because I am sure, if it is practicable, it is the right principle. It is the best, if not the only way of so adjusting the financial provision for industrial injury as to givé the injured workman what he needs most. What does the workman who is injured in industry need? He needs two things. First, restoration to health and earning power and, secondly, compensation in so far as he cannot be restored. I want to put these two things in that order, restoration first, and compensation for failure to restore second. Restoration is primary, and the greatest condemnation of the existing system is that though it has been in being for nearly 50 years it has done practically nothing for restoration and rehabilitation. That is its final condemnation. But compensation has hitherto been based upon inability to earn, and so long as compensation is so based it is a discouragement to earn. It is a discouragement therefore to return to earning power. Restoration depends ultimately upon the co-operation of the workman himself, and upon avoiding a Government system of compensation which makes him sub-consciously afraid of earning more lest thereby it cuts down his claim upon the employer.
The way to encourage the injured man to overcome his disabilities is to make him feel that however much he recovers or earns that will not affect the compensation for his injury. You cannot avoid reducing his compensation if and when he begins to earn again if you regard his compensation as being for the loss of earning. This new Government plan gets right away from that to basing compensation on assessment of medical disability. I hope this new principle of the Government will, in fact, be found to be completely practicable, and that it can be applied so that we can get away from any system which reduces the compensation a man gets when he is earning more because he has recovered his earning power. That is why I describe this new idea of the Government as an admirable one, and one which I hope will be found practicable. It is not in my own Report at all. I can only say that I wish I had thought of it.
Let me refer for a moment to what was said by the hon. Member for Oxford. There is not, I suggest, any necessary conflict between this particular principle and any scale of benefits. You can adopt
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this principle, and instead of writing 60s. you can write 80s. or 100s., or any number of shillings you like, into your scale. There is no conflict there, but once you begin to make your basic scale of benefit relate to previous earnings, you cannot avoid making the continuance of benefit depend upon what the previous earnings were, or what future earnings will be.
Mr. Hogg: I would like to understand what the hon. Member is saying, as he is making a criticism of what I said. I understand that the Government's proposal is to pay 40s. for 100 per cent. incapacity. Does it not follow from that that if there is 20 per cent. incapacity what will be paid will be 20 per cent. of 40s.?
Mr. A. Bevan: The 40s. is arbitrary.
Sir W. Beveridge: Yes.
Mr. Hogg: Does not the hon. Member agree that, as it is now an important point of the general social insurance scheme, it must bear some relation to invalidity?
Sir W. Beveridge: My suggestion is that having decided that your benefits for other forms of interruption of earnings should always be adequate for subsistence you should make your benefits for industrial injury at least 50 per cent. higher. That is the kind of principle that I should like to see adopted. I mean by that cases of serious industrial injury, because I am coming to the question of short-term injury in a moment. I do not want to say much about the actual scale of benefits. Whether you say 60s., 70s. or 80s. depends upon what the contributions are to be, how high you can put the contribution and whether you can get the money. As the hon. Member for Oxford has mentioned 40s. I would remind him that under the scale of the Government, the actual benefit for a man with a wife and three children would be something like £4 a week, and would be more than that if the Government adopted an adequate scale of children's allowances.
Now may I come to some of my doubts about the details of the Government scheme. Although I have disagreed with the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) as to the necessity for making benefits identical for all these forms of interruption of earnings, I hope he will agree with me—
Mr Buchanan: It will be for the first time.
Sir W. Beveridge: Well, everything has to be done for the first time. However, I hope my hon. Friend will agree that there is no need to differentiate between benefits rates in the cases of short-term disability. Instead of spending industrial injury contributions on higher benefits for slight accidents, I want to keep the money that otherwise I would spend on such cases for those who really need itgfor those who are permanently incapacitated or killed by industrial accidents.
The second point of criticism I want to make of the Government's scheme is the anomalous treatment of family responsibilities as between Part I and Part II. I call attention to the following figures. Assume that two men have sprained their wrists so that they cannot work. One has slipped down outside the factory and the other has slipped down inside. The single man who has slipped down outside the factory will get 24s., whereas if he has slipped down inside he will get 35s. Supposing the man had been wise enough to be married before his accident. The man who has slipped down inside the factory, will have 16s. for his wife, while the man who has slipped down outside will get 8s. 9d. I cannot understand that. Supposing the man has been even more thoughtful, and has had his first child. The man who has slipped down outside will get 5s. for that child, and the man who has slipped down inside will get 7s. 6d. What is the sense of these varying figures? I have no idea who is responsible for them, but I suspect that the origin of them is undue respect for the supposed vested interest of the single man who hitherto, if his wages were high enough, has been able to get 35s. for industrial injury in place of the 24s. proposed for sickness.
Mr. Grenfell: My hon. Friend seems to ignore the fact that even the unmarried person who has an accident, cannot pay his board for the first week unless he has his own resources.
Sir W. Beveridge: If you canot pay your board for the first week on 24s. when disabled by an accident inside the factory, no more can you pay your board if you are disabled by sickness or by an accident outside the factory. My proposal is a subsistence benefit for every-
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body whatever the cause that has stopped him from earning. But I do not see why a single man should get much more than subsistence for a short-term injury in one particular case. I am thinking only of future accidents, not of those who have been injured in the past and are already on compensation.
Mr. Ness Edwards: Does not the hon. Member's argument apply equally to the position at the end of the thirteenth week?
Sir W. Beveridge: Not at all. I have already argued that for prolonged industrial injury, for people who are permanently thrown out of work, there is a case for more than subsistence benefit, as part of the conditions of their employment.
Mr. Edwards: But the man who has slipped down inside the factory is, at the end of the thirteenth week, in the same anomalous position as the man who has slipped down inside the factory. Is not that so?
Sir W. Beveridge: I have tried to argue that there is a case for making better provision for serious industrial injury than for other forms of interruption of earning and I believe that will commend itself to the sentiments of most people. There are also other surprising anomalies in the treatment of family responsibilities under the two Parts of the Government proposals. Under Part I, as I understand it, a man gets an. allowance for his wife whenever he marries if she is dependent on him. The unemployed man, if he marries, will get an allowance if his wife is dependent upon him. If the man is on sick benefit and marries, he will get an allowance; if he did not get an allowance for his wife, he would not have enough to live on.
But under Part II a man must have married before the accident to get any allowance for his wife. I do not see why. At any rate, there is an anomaly which I should like the Government to explain. I suggest that they should reconsider both the rates of benefit and the family allowances in order to remove anomalies and, by cutting down on the short cases, and not giving the single man more than he really needs should make more money available for the needs of those who are incapacitated permanently. The hon.

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Member for Gower continually referred, not to the man who is out of work for three weeks with a sprained wrist but to the man who is killed or permanently incapacitated. What we do about the short cases is comparatively unimportant. We want a really good scheme for those whose lives or earning power are wholly destroyed.
I am still a little sorry that the Government should have rejected my proposal for a levy on dangerous trades because, although it is true that accidents happen in dangerous industries because they are dangerous, it is not true that you cannot, by taking care, reduce accidents, and it is not true that the taking of care does not cost money. If you remove from employers all financial incentive to care, and all financial reward for care, you are in the position that you are continually urging them to spend money on being careful when they can get nothing back of what they spend. [Interruption.] It is true that the main incentive to care must be through factory inspection but, if I were a factory inspector, I should feel myself on stronger ground in urging employers to take precautions if I could argue that if they did not do so they would have to pay more for accidents. The actual proposition in my Report was that part of the cost—not the whole of it—should be raised by a levy on dangerous industries, that there should be statutory associations of employers and workpeople in each dangerous industry and that the Minister of Social Security should say to the statutory association of a particular industry, "Your industry as a whole must pay an extra levy of £500,000 or £1,000,000. You can collect it from employers as you like," and I hope they would collect it on a system having regard to the care taken by the individual employer. [AN HON. MEMBER: "By what test?"] By their own test. [Interruption.] My proposition was to leave self-government in the matter to the statutory association of employers and workpeople in each industry. Possibly also the levy might be a way of reconciling the desire of the hon. Member for Oxford for a "double-decker" scheme with the plans of the Government as they stand. I do not believe in a double-decker scheme in which the top deck consists of the liability of individual em-
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ployers, but I hope that the Government will explore the possibility of a "double-decker" scheme with a lower deck of flat benefits provided by uniform contributions and an upper deck for higher industrial pensions provided by a levy on dangerous industries. I regret therefore the disappearance of my levy proposal and I rather hope the Government may be led to reconsider it as a way of meeting not only my criticisms but those of some others.
Let me conclude with two final points linking this Debate with that of last week on Part 1. First, to me the idea underlying the most novel proposal of Part II, that is to say the idea of giving a rate of benefit which is not related to or reduced by the actual earnings of the workman, is diametrically opposed to the philosophy of Part 1 in rejecting subsistense benefit and assuming a continuance on a large scale of assistance under means test. Every time you say that what a man gets from a common fund is to be reduced by taking into account his means, whether earned or saved, you discourage individual initiative. In Part II the Government see this and base their scheme—with its novel fifth principle—upon it. In Part I they ignore it and plan for a large scale continuance of assistance under means test.
Second, the substitution of fixed money rates for a percentage of wages is desirable in itself but it is indefensible unless the purchasing power of money is reasonably maintained. I hope the Government will stick to this flat rate of benefit irrespective of previous earnings, but they cannot do that unless they are prepared to relate their rates of benefit to the cost of living, and that ultimately means taking responsibility for stabilising a reasonable cost of living. Under the present system, with compensation related to wages, you get an automatic adjustment of the compensation to the cost of living. If the cost of living goes up, wages go up, or it may possibly be that because wages have gone up the cost of living goes up. At any rate, they follow each other. Therefore, the present system of Workmen's Compensation benefits, making them a percentage of wages, does automatically for this particular benefit what I want to see done for all benefits. I hope the Government, driven by the

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logic of what they want for Part II, will decide to fix a subsistence level related to cost of living for all the other benefits and will provide for industrial injury, at any rate for the long and serious cases, benefits which are at least 50 per cent. above subsistence level.
3.29 P.m.
Mr. Francis Watt: In the course of his speech the Home Secretary invited criticism, and he has certainly had plenty of it. The one feature which has emerged from what has been said today is that all Members are anxious to make as good a job as possible of the new Bill when it comes along. I feel, as I think every other Member does, that the existing workmen's compensation legislation is not satisfactory, and it would be a poor look-out if we could not improve upon it. I want to make a few remarks, first, on the subject of benefits, and, second, on the matter of administration. I think that we can all agree that in benefits the White Paper is a big improvement on the previous state of affairs. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg), I feel that, if it were possible, it would be better that benefits should be graded according to the workman's earnings. One can visualise that if there is a flat rate all round the highly paid workman who is injured will be forced, perhaps permanently, into a lower standard of living. That is something we should try to avoid. Whether it is a double-decker or any other kind of scheme, so long as it works equitably we should find a method of grading compensation according to earnings. The Government will, of course, say that under the present scheme everybody pays an equal contribution and, therefore, everybody should obtain the same benefit. If that is stated it is unanswerable, but, nevertheless, the Government should consider a change in this matter.
On the matter of administration, I am, like my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, a practising advocate and have acted many times in workmen's compensation for both the workman and the employer. I remember acting for a number of years for a solicitor who did a lot of work for a small trade union which had no funds, and when it came to arbitration and one had to employ doctors and wit-
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nesses, the workman was in a position of extreme difficulty. An hon. Member opposite made reference to the workman hitherto being in the hands of the doctors and lawyers. I can only say, looking back to those days, that so far as the lawyers and particularly the doctors were concerned, the workman was in good hands. Many a doctor gave up an afternoon and charged nothing for his services. If it had not been for the public spirit of these men workmen's compensation would not have worked as smoothly as it did. I am glad that the new scheme will do away with those difficulties and that the workman will not any longer be placed in that invidious position.
There are one or two points that one would like to know regarding administration. When a workman makes his claim he goes before the pensions officer. I wonder whether that officer will have any legal qualifications. What kind of man will he be? The questions will still remain whether the workman met with an accident and whether the accident arose out of and in the course of his employment. These are partly questions of law and partly questions of fact, and the second one certainly involves law. I do not think an ordinary civil servant would be a suitable person to hold such an office. It has to be remembered that, although the employer has dropped out of the matter, the parties are the workman on the one hand and the State on the other, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford pointed out, this pension officer will be in a peculiar position. While he is supposed to welcome the workman forward and hear his claim he has the additional duty of watching the funds of the State and seeing that unwarranted claims are not passed. So that he has the most singular task of having to make up his mind whether he will withhold money from people who are virtually his clients, and also withhold it from another set of people whom in a sense he also represents. I do not know how he is going to conduct his investigations, whether he will hear any evidence or make any record of what he does, because, after he has finished, the workman, if he loses, can go to a tribunal.
The tribunal is to have a legal president, but again we do not know how it will function. Is the tribunal to call evidence? The White Paper does not suggest that it should have any such powers. What docu-

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ments are to be put before the tribunal? Will the workman get a fair hearing? I put these points in all seriousness because we know that there has been a good deal of trouble in the case of wounded and disabled soldiers who have appealed against decisions of the Ministry of Pensions. We know the intense agitation there was to get some sort of independent tribunal to review those decisions. I am anxious, if this scheme is to be a success, that the local appeal tribunal should be a body with ample powers and facilities for thoroughly investigating a case and that it will not be bound by some sort of ex parte investigations by the pensions officer. The last appellate court is the most extraordinary one. It consists of one man, which is anomalous to say the least, and he is not a judge of the High Court, but a commissioner appointed by the Government. That is an entirely wrong principle. If we are going to have independence in the local appeal tribunal, we should preserve independence in the court of last instance. It is the last resort of the workman and it should be beyond question independent.
I feel that this complete exclusion of the courts of the realm, which have stood the workman in good stead in the past, is greatly to be deplored. I have had a long experience before the courts, and I can say, as I am sure will my colleagues in this House, that they have always given sympathetic hearings in these cases. At the present moment they are discharging their duties admirably and fairly, and I cannot understand why Government Departments invariably try to exclude the courts of the realm. It looks as if there is something they are frightened of and as if they are trying to keep everybody within their own preserves and limit the right of the subject to appeal. In this instance we are dealing with the workman who has met with an injury and who wants the fullest facilities for airing his grievance and having his case put before the people who have to decide it. The administration of the scheme will be completely unsatisfactory unless in some way access to the ordinary courts of the country and proper representation by skilled professional men are given to the workman should he desire them.
3.38 p.m.
Mr. Isaacs: The hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. Watt) mentioned that many a doctor had
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charged nothing for helping an injured workman. I wish he would give me the addresses of some of them. I know many a doctor who will come to court if he gets a thumping big fee, and I know that the doctor on the other side gets a thumping big fee too, and that, if the workman loses, he has to pay both of them. Another point he made was that men learned and skilled in the law, whose services on our side we freely and gratefully acknowledge, should be available to the workman before the tribunals. There are, however, many trade union officials skilled in workmen's compensation who could do that job, but the lawyers' trade union will not let him.
Mr. Watt: We have our trade union too.
Mr. Isaacs: And we know it. I feel that if the industrial commissioner has assessors sitting with him and he can collect evidence that will be presented to him by those who are skilled in the industrial side as well as the legal side, the workman will get at least as good a service as he has had previously. The hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg), whose sincerity in what he said we do not doubt for a moment, warned us of the possibility of taking a false step. That warning is worth taking notice of. There are several steps to be taken in this scheme. One of them may or may not be false and I would like to look at it for a moment.
Let me refer first to one thing which the Home Secretary said in his opening speech when he took up something which I said upon a previous occasion. I said then that workmen's compensation was a very patched-up garment, more patch than garment, and asked whether we could not have a new garment. Now we have a new garment, but it is rather like the lady's garment that was said to be not quite long enough to cover the subject but short enough to be interesting. That is the condition of these proposals. It is a step which may or may not be false; but we believe it is not false at all to make an end of the insurance companies. I want to quote one or two experiences I have had with insurance companies which are typical. I have been handling compensation business for 30 years in the printing industry. If there ever was a row between a trade union acting for the workman and an insurance company we could always count on the employer coming down on the trade union side and fighting the insurance company with us, and that was a

1447
very great help. First, the insurance companies were making a profit out of compensation, and they did not mind how they made it. I have one or two illustrations of their tricks. Here is a postcard, sent out not with a covering letter, but usually as a postcard. This one says:
"Date as postmark. Workmen's Compensation Act. You are hereby requested to submit yourself for examination to Dr. with respect to your reported absence from work. Important: if you are unable to travel, or should you have resumed work, it will not be necessary for you to attend, but please advise Doctor at once. Bring this card with you."
It does not say: "Your employer desires the examination." It does not say: "We, the insurance company, acting on behalf of your employer, want the examination." The card is dished. out as a matter of course. The card was sent out by one of our employers' mutual associations, although they knew that the trade union had given notice and although they were in possession of a letter that the union was acting for the man concerned. If the man did not go, at the week-end the employer would say to him: "I can't pay you. The insurance company tells me not to, because you didn't turn up for medical examination." If we rang up the employer and told him that he was responsible in law for paying the man his money, the money was usually paid.
My next illustration shows where the 'insurance company has gone a little further. Here is a somewhat crude sheet of notepaper, with a badge on top. It was sent out to a man living in Feltham, Middlesex, and was dated 30th December, not "date as postmark." It says:
"You are hereby requested to present yourself for medical examination to Dr. at Coldharbour Lane, Hayes, on Friday, 31st inst., at 10.30 o'clock. Please accept this as a notice under and in terms of the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1925.
Agent for your employer.
P.S. We have written to the employer for time off, and your travelling expenses will be paid at the surgery."
This man got his letter on the Friday morning, when he had already left home to go to work. The employer had already told him to get the time off. Prompt notice was sent to his employer to stop the man's money, because he had not turned up for examination. Those are only two examples of the experiences we
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have had of the methods of insurance companies. They send men round to see what the injured workmen are doing, and sometimes they dangle money in front of a man and their agent says: "Take this £10 straight away." The man signs for it. If he has no union behind him he will have sold himself for £10. If he has a union, the insurance company will denounce their agent and will say: "We have told that man off. He has no right to do any such thing. We will put the case back." How often has a bitterness crept into one's heart in dealing with an insurance company like that, and has sometimes bubbled over against the employer.
I happen to be able to cite quite another kind of instance. There is a very large group of newspaper owners with organisations in London and in the provinces who have said: "We have finished with insurance companies," and are handling the compensation insurance business themselves. We have got away in this case from insurance companies and from litigation, and the result is such a spirit of trust and confidence by both sides that it does not matter which side produces a medical certificate, the other side accepts it. Another result is that we get better settlements with no expense and no bitterness. If that will be the consequences of the Government's scheme we are prepared to take that step. We say that it will not be a false step but one that is worth taking.
I would now like to supplement a plea that has been made about the rates of benefit. They are not good enough. The Government must give us something better, and I hope to show that it is reasonable to ask for something better. For many years the great trade union movement, through their annual conferences and congresses, in association with their political party, have argued that an injured workman should get a minimum of 75 per cent. of his wages to maintain him while incapacitated. We are not going to try to wreck this scheme now by pressing for the last ounce, but we ask for something materially better than is proposed. The compensation that has been paid all through the years has been provided not by employers, but out of industry. No employer has suffered a penny reduction in his profits and no shareholder has lost a penny of his divi-

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dends because of the cost of the insurance premiums. The cost has been put on to the consumers, who have paid all along.
In the present case, a very splendid present will be made to the employers if I may judge from the Government's own figures. The White Paper says that up to now compensation has annually cost somewhere about £17,000,000, and it is expected that the new scheme will cost about £20,000,000 a year. It is proposed to collect from the workers about £8⅓ millions; they never paid anything before. It is proposed to collect a further £8⅓ millions from the employers. In other words, these proposal will hand back to the employers somewhere about £9,000,000. We know that the State is going to pay its percentage, but we suggest that that is not quite fair. I speak with a certain amount of confidence that employers generally throughout the country will be willing to meet a higher burden, spread over industry, if that will relieve bad feeling. We will not go so far as to suggest a definite figure for this purpose, but we ask that the Government should reconsider the matter with a view to a substantial advance on the amount that they propose.
The next very difficult question, which has been mentioned by several other Members, is with regard to invalidity pensions. I could not altogether follow the argument advanced by the hon. Member for Berwick - upon - Tweed (Sir W. Beveridge), as it seemed very involved. On this matter, the White Paper says:
"irrespective of earning capacity."
The Home Secretary mentioned the case of a linotype operator losing a finger. Consider such cases as an engine driver losing an eye or a bricklayer losing the thumb from his left hand. There are many cases like that, and they are completely incapacitated. Let us imagine that the ceiling falls down in the composing room of a printing office, and that one compositor receives an injury as a result of which he loses his leg below the knee, while another loses the top joints of two fingers. The man who loses his leg will get a pension based upon the medical assessment of the percentage of his injury.
He can go back to work; he can have either a peg leg or an artificial leg, or use a stool, whereas in the case of the
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fellow who has lost the top of two fingers, I ask anyone who knows about the printing industry, what is the good of a "comp." with the top of two fingers gone? He is finished. A highly skilled trade in which seven years of apprenticeship have been served, and technical education undertaken, is thrown away. Really the Government must do something in such cases. The words the Government use are:
"in association with another person of the same age or sex."
Is it impossible to add "or industrial status," or words to that effect, so that when the medical gentleman with, I hope, assessors sitting with him, considers the extent of the incapacity of that man, he must look beyond the top of these two fingers to what they mean and what they do for the man? We suggest there will be a really serious hardship if it is to be said, "Look at the man, see how much he has had chopped off and knock him down by a shilling."
Take the engine-driver who has lost an eye and is no longer able to drive an engine. He goes back to another job at a lower rate and gets half the difference between his old rate and the new one. If the loss of eye is to be assessed at 20 per cent.—
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Peake): The hon. Member will find that the loss of an eye under the war pensions scheme is assessed a great deal higher than 20 per cent.
Mr. Isaacs: Whatever it is, my point is that the skilled engine-driver of an express train who has served many years and loses his sight when a piece of coal blows out, would not be so well off on a percentage basis like this as under the old scheme. We know that in these things we are asked to take the scheme by and large. Some will be better off, and some worse off. No one will envy the man who is better off, and it will be poor consolation to the man who is worse off.
Not only are all employers who have not previously paid going to do so, but all their workers will pay, so that the man in the risky industry can say, "Not only am I paying 3d. a week to help towards paying my compensation, but my pal who works in the shop over the road, who will never have an industrial injury, is also paying 3d." We suggest

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that an increase of the employers' contribution from 3d. to 6d. would still leave them with a substantial saving as a whole, would not be an unreasonable burden on industry, and would provide the means to give this extra benefit and extra assessment—of taking into consideration the words "earning capacity." Call it anything you like so long as something is given for loss of earning capacity.
The only other matter to which I wish to refer has been referred to by other hon. Members. It is this final court of appeal, the decision of this final arbitrator. Do not let him sit alone. We are sick and tired of the industrial referee under the old Act. He sat alone and had more power than the House of Lords. He gave an absolutely irrevocable decision, and some of us who knew the man concerned by the decision, and who knew his condition before the injury, and knew his job, were all profoundly dissatisfied. If that general dissatisfaction gets abroad among the workers faith in the scheme will disappear altogether, and we are hoping that when the scheme is brought forward there will be provision for others to sit with the final arbitrator to give that final decision.
The Solicitor-General (Major Sir David Maxwell Fyfe): Did the hon. Member mean the medical referee under the Workmen's Compensation Act? He did not mean the umpire under unemployment insurance, he meant the medical referee, when he had power to decide? I want to be sure that that is his point.
Mr. Isaacs: I was referring to the medical referee under the Workmen's Compensation Act who sat alone and gave a final decision. We suggest that the final arbitrator should be the chairman of a Board of three. There are one or two minor points. We feel that although it might be argued that a lot of small book-keeping accounts would be necessary, payment should commence from the first day instead of after three waiting days. It is generally a week or so before the arrangements are made to pay the money, and that three days would mean quite a good deal. It is half a week's wages. I wish the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) had been right when he said that the average wage of an unskilled labourer was £4 a week, and of a skilled workman £6 a week. Even
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in the printing industry, with which I am proud to be associated, there are still some parts of this country where not much more than £3 a week represents existing wages—
Mr. Hogg: I was venturing into the future, about what I thought would be appropriate to the post-war period.
Mr. Isaacs: Hope springs eternal in the human breast, but it is the "bees and honey" in the "sky-rocket" that matter. We ask for the abolition of the three waiting days. One other thing for which we ask; although I think it is implied in the document it will be much more satisfactory if a member of the Government, in replying, would make it clear that in all these cases a man, from the beginning, right from going before the assessor or pensions officer, has the right to be accompanied by his own chosen representative, whether a trade union official or a member of the legal profession. This scheme, it should be remembered, is to cover the managing director as well as the sweeper-up downstairs, and the managing director might not have an appropriate trade union to which he could belong, or rather, there might not be a trade union willing to accept him. We want the full right to have the advice and assistance of the gentlemen of the legal profession if we wish to use them. Can we take them with us, or our trade union officials? Has a workman the right to say, "I want someone with me to help and advise me on this matter"?
I revert to the first point of a false step or a bad one. Subject to our claim for better benefits we accept the contributory basis, because it will give us the right to have a say in this matter. I think the employers will say "You have an equal voice for your threepence with us for our sixpence." We shall not go into a conference with an inferiority complex because we are paying 3d. and they are paying 6d. We never had that inferiority complex when we paid nothing and they paid all. In conclusion, we think there has been introduced the basis of a new principle that will remove the old bad feeling, not only between the workman and the insurance company, but between the workman and his employer, and between employers and insurance companies. We welcome the scheme, and when we see the whole plan we hope it

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will be a little more atractive than it is at the present time.
3.59 P.m.
Mr. Higgs: In common with most Members of this House I support social reform, but I am afraid I do not support this White Paper to any great extent. I must inform the House that I am an interested party, because I am a director of a mutual insurance company, not for what I get out of it. No doubt the House is aware that mutual assurance companies are responsible for 50 per cent. or more of workmen's compensation. Some of us who are interested in industry and insurance see this problem from both sides. The remarks that I have to make will particularly apply to industry apart from mining. I cannot refrain from saying a few words about what the hon. Member for North Southwark (Mr. Isaacs) said. He suggests that if we get rid of insurance companies, all will be well. Is he perfectly satisfied with all Government Departments? Is he satisfied with the rulings of the Minister of Pensions? Is he not aware that there will be difficulties of a different character if and when the Government take over workmen's compensation?
Mr. Isaacs: I have not yet had sufficient experience of those Departments or of this new scheme to give an opinion on that; but I have had sufficient experience of the insurance companies, especially the mutual, to give an opinion about them.
Mr. Higgs: I shall be glad if the hon. Member will tell me of any difficulty he has had with my company. He read two documents. One document arrived on a Friday, and the man had to see the insurance company on the Friday. He did not say what action the company took because the man did not see them on that day; he assumed the action of the insurance company. He referred to the employers considering the expense of an increase in insurance. If workmen were compensated to the extent of 100 per cent. of their earnings, it would not cost the employer 1 per cent. of his wages bill. At present I am under the impression that workmen's compensation costs somewhere between one quarter and half of 1 per cent. of the wages bill. Some industries pay considerably more and I know industries that pay as little as one-eighth of one per cent. The argu
1454
ment has never been brought forward by employers that they could not afford to pay for compensation in full—I am not advocating it, but it could be done. I consider this White Paper to be change for change's sake. The question of eliminating competition has not been referred to; but when one company is competing against another for an employer's insurance, those companies have to work as efficiently as they can, not by paying low rates of compensation, but by having efficient organisation. Competition contributes to efficiency. When the State takes over workmen's compensation we shall lose that efficiency, to a very great extent.
The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir W. Beveridge) is not likely to say that all is well when he is asked to present a report to the Government. He referred to the contentious and costly methods of settling disputes, and to difficulties of demarcation between industrial and non-industrial cases. Because the State is about to take the matter over, will problems of that description be eliminated? He refers to the necessity for provision to be made for lump-sum settlements. Whether the State takes it over or it remains in the hands of private enterprise, that problem can be easily settled. Will all be well when the State takes it over, if the principles of this White Paper are applied? I suggest that the authors of this White Paper, in general, have never had any practical experience in connection with workmen's compensation. I note that in one paragraph they say that the number of cases subject to litigation is small. Is the House conscious that only 14 cases in 1,000 are subject to litigation? Is it suggested that, when the State takes over, the dissatisfaction of those 14 cases in 1,000 will be eliminated? On page 12, the White Paper says:
"The result is that the heaviest liability falls on the hazardous employments, which include certain important industries such as mining and shipping, which have to face foreign competition."
The authors had forgotten that when they arrived at page 18, and used these words:
"Moreover, the whole charge in respect of industrial compensation is, and under the new scheme will continue to be, a comparatively small item in relation to wages and other costs of production."
Then, why suggest that the cost of insurance is going to be detrimental to the

1455
heavier and overseas trades? The Chancellor of the Exchequer is contributing. That is subsidy from public funds, subsidy from the employer and the employee, to the extent of —2,000,000 or £3,000,000. The relation of industrial pensions to earnings has been referred to by the majority of speakers, but generally in terms of a man who has lost a leg or who has had permanent injury. What is the position of a man earning £4 a week and that of a man earning £8 a week? If the compensation is satisfactory to the £4-a-week man, it is not satisfactory to the £8-a-week man. How is he to adjust his mode of living for the period of his injury to the relatively small income? It is exceedingly unsatisfactory. I am not disputing that it is very difficult at present to arrive at the right figure based on wages: I know the difficulties, but they will be infinitely greater if we adopt the proposals of this White Paper. Let me refer to the special levy on employers in hazardous industries. The White Paper says that the Government are not satisfied that merit rating based on the risks in particular industries would encourage employers to take measures to prevent accidents. But it has proved to be effective. If the insurance rate is altered on any particular company, the alteration is invariably brought to the notice of the directors, and inquiries are made. I have known many cases, in my own firm and in other firms, where the rates have been altered, investigations have been made into the cause of the increased rates, and protection devices applied. That will disappear if the ideas contained in this White Paper are put into an Act. There is no suggestion in the White Paper that advantage should be taken of existing organisations, and the knowledge and experience they have gained in 50 years. Are we to throw it all down the drain?
Mr. G. Griffiths: We hope so.
Mr. Higgs: If advantage is taken of this White Paper and it becomes law, I suggest that that inside knowledge will not be used. I do not agree with a woman being compensated at the same rate as a man. Either the men are not getting enough, or the women are getting too much. One of the most important lines in this document is:
"Assuming that the rates of wages are about 25 per cent. in excess of the level of 1938."
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It is well-known that wages to-day are of the order of 70 per cent. to 100 per cent. higher than 1938. After the last war we had a National Debt of something like £8,000,000,000. It looks as if we shall have a National Debt of something like £30,000,000,000 after this war, and as long at that debt increases and as long as our Budgets are not balanced, wages will increase. If they are now up 75 per cent. to 100 per cent. over pre-war days, is it not quite safe to assume that that is likely to be the permanent figure after the war? The whole White Paper is based on the assumption of an increase in wages of 25 per cent., which is ridiculous. The Government do not intend to take any precautions at all for the prevention of accidents. At least one or two insurance companies have an organisation from which they send inspectors to give advice to the assured after serious accidents have occurred, and it is to be hoped that the Government may follow the same example.
Mr. G. Griffiths: May I put this to my hon. Friend? He is talking about indemnity societies. Do they not send word to employers that they are not to employ certain men after they have been hurt? Will the Government do that?
Mr. Higgs: I am not aware of that information.
Mr. Griffiths: I could give my hon. Friend hundreds of cases in South Yorkshire.
Mr. Higgs: They have nothing to do with any company with which I am connected.
Mr. Griffiths: They are in a brother company to that of my hon. Friend.
Mr. Higgs: With regard to the rates, the improvement is only 8½ per cent. under 13 weeks, and 4½ per cent. in cases over 13 weeks, and I say there is no material improvement. There will be no opposition from the employers if improved compensation is given considerably in advance of that which the law permits at the present moment. We have got a fixed rate of contribution suggested, with a fluctuating currency, which, again, will make any legislation ineffective in a few. years' time. The present cost of a domestic servant to the employer is 2s. 6d. per annum, including common law. If this White Paper becomes law, the new scheme will cost the employer 8s. 8d. per

1457
annum, in addition to the same amount to be paid by the worker. Common law has not been included. That is just one experience if this White Paper becomes law.
There is just one other remark I wish to make, and that is that my hon. Friends opposite are probably very familiar with "The New Dawn," and I hope they have read an article recently published in this paper which cannot say a good word for the White Paper. This paper is the official organ of the National Union of Distributive and Allied Workers, and when papers of this description have nothing good to say for the White Paper, and when it is supposed to be a paper in favour of the workers, then I think it is a mistake that we should continue to bring before the House legislation based upon that particular document.
4.16 p.m.
Mr. Oliver: The hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Higgs) appears to be the only hon. Member who has spoken to-day who is satisfied with the existing workmen's compensation, and, although I think it is quite true that there are criticisms which could be levelled against the White Paper, I think the points made by my hon. Friend do not appear to be among the contentious matters which will interest, generally, the people who are affected by any subsequent Statute. One thing has evolved and that is that there appears to be no regret that the insurance companies are at long last to take, their departure from workmen's compensation and that the whole scheme is to be transferred to a social security scheme which will give a right to injured workmen to receive benefits. I do not think there is any difficulty about that, because employers themselves are quite satisfied that the time has arrived when a change should be made, and I appreciate that the employer himself will be very delighted, in view of the fact that employers to-day who have been spending approximately £17,000,000 in respect of this liability will be relieved for a lesser figure approximating to something like £8,000,000. There will be general unanimity among workmen and employers that the old scheme should go and that something new should take its place.
The hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) said that he spoke for himself in the sug-
1458
gestions which he made. I was very much in sympathy with much that he had to say. because I believe that, until there is an alteration in the basis of the assessment in the White Paper, some of the gravest injustices will be done. I cannot dissociate the granting of pensions from the nature of the occupation in which the workman sustained his injury and the remuneration which he obtains for his employment. The hon. Member for North Southwark (Mr. Isaacs) expressed the point in regard to the compositor who had lost the tips of his fingers. Assuming, for example, that the loss of the tips of the fingers was assessed at 20 per cent., the injured workman would receive, under the existing scales of the Ministry of Pensions, a sum of 8s. per week. For a man who has lost his earning power, that would, indeed, be a great hardship, if his compensation had to be fixed on that figure, and, as the scheme is at present before the House, I beg to say that, until we hear something from the Home Secretary that more generous provisions are to be made, the compensation for the loss of the tips of his fingers in the case of a compositor will not represent the compensation he ought to have. That is a very much worse position than the position to-day.
It is necessary that some alteration should be made to make the workmen's compensation approximate more to the loss a man sustains. I had in my own experience one day last week a case where a workman's hand was cut across the back, which deprived him of the use of his fingers. The other hand was also similarly affected. He told me that his left hand had been affected by a war injury in the last war for which he received 8s. per week pension, that being 20 per cent. disability. If the man had been a miner, engineer, compositor or following any occupation which required the use of both hands he would have been totally incapacitated for the particular job and would have been compelled to seek employment in some other industry. That position cannot be the last word in a matter of this kind. The hon. Member for Oxford was right when he said that the basis of assessment stands on the medical assessment, as we understand it, of this White Paper and the whole scheme requires re-investigation. It must be stepped up but I doubt whether we can step it up unless we change the basis from the one contemplated in the

1459
White Paper to one that is different.
All the speakers from this side of the House have complained about the smallness of the compensation. The figures are so small that, if the proposals were placed before many trade union branches and members were told that, in the event of meeting with certain accidents, they would receive the amount contemplated in the White Paper, I am sure the trades unions would be instructed to oppose the whole thing. I am not unmindful that there are injuries for which pensions are given and that the injured man can go and earn as much money as he earned before the accident. In London that frequently happens, because there is a wide field of diversified industries. Men with one eye or one arm or one leg can get positions as lift attendants, messengers and jobs of that kind, but in the normal provincial towns if a man is incapacitated from following the industry in which he was trained, there is not the diversified type of industry in which a man with 100 per cent. pension could get a job and earn the same amount of money. Once a man is incapacitated from following the job in which he has been trained he goes down the social scale and must take up whatever job he can possibly obtain. I am sure that it will not fall on deaf ears when I ask the Home Secretary to have another look at this matter in the hope of making some improvement in the scheme.
There is one other aspect of the matter about which I would like to say a few words. I observe that the highly contentious words "arising out of and in the course of his employment" will be retained in the new scheme and also that ćompensation will not be allowed when injury is attributable to serious and wilful misconduct of the workman. These are two highly controversial and contentious reasons, and while one must realise that this is a contributory and social scheme and the profit motive will have been removed altogether, there must come occasions when the pensions officer will say, "This accident did not arise out of or in the course of the man's employment." The man is then entitled to go before the tribunal, consisting of a legal gentleman, and two lay persons, one representing the employer and the other the worker. We do not know very much about the procedure of the tribunal and whether the work-
1460
man will be entitled to be accompanied by someone who can state the case for him, or whether he will be precluded from having any assistance from anyone who knows anything about the subject.
The issues are highly contentious and when the pensions officer rejects a claim, it will not be because he wants to save money but because he will thoroughly believe that the injured workman's claim does not come within the four corners of the scheme. It is necessary, therefore, that the tribunal should be of the highest possible kind to hear and determine whether the workman comes within or without the scheme. It ought to be a much more important body than appears to be visualised in the White Paper. There is a further appeal, in the event of the workman not being satisfied, to an industrial injury insurance commissioner. Will there be an opportunity for the workman's case to be presented to the industrial injury insurance commissioner? Will the hearing be open and in public and will the commissioner give a decision and the grounds of his decision, so that it may be known, instead of the matter being discussed and determined behind closed doors, with the industrial commissioner saying, "Yes" or "No" without any explanation whatever?
Furthermore, it will be interesting to know whether the reasons, if any, will be tabulated, so that they might be some guidance—as case law is some guidance to-day—for decisions which might have to be taken in the future. In replying, will my right hon. Friend say whether the workman will be entitled to be legally represented before the tribunal? I say that because I realise the great importance to the workman that he should not find himself at a disadvantage, if decisions have been reached which exclude him from this scheme. I believe some further information should be given before a final conclusion is reached.
When those two points are dealt with, I think it will be generally agreed that this can be made into a good scheme. There is every element in the White Paper to make it a good scheme. At the moment, it is unsatisfactory because it fails to explain many of the points which appear on the surface. Last but not least, the benefits offered and the method whereby those benefits will be ascertained are in my view unsatisfactory, and after the Debate I hope the Home Secretary

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will take all these points into consideration so that, when the Bill is introduced, we may have a degree of unanimity.
4.32 p.m.
Lieut.-Colonel Marlowe: This proposal of the Government has really been attacked on one basis, namely, that the rates of benefit are inadequate. It has also been attacked by the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) on' a somewhat different basis, but I think I shall show the House that he came back to inadequacy of benefits. I want to put before the House the view that that is not a proper way to approach these proposals at all, and I suggest to hon. Members opposite that they should not damage the proposals by attacking them on that score. It is, if I may suggest it, an unstatesmanlike way of approaching the matter. The rates of benefit as they stand at the moment are quite an unimportant part of these proposals. I assure hon. Members opposite that nobody is more anxious than I am that the rates of benefit should be materially stepped up, but I believe the way to do that is to get the basic scheme through first. It would be deplorable if we were to condemn the scheme merely on the ancillary aspect of it, that is to say the question of rates of benefit.
The proper way, I think, to approach this White Paper is to consider the two basic principles involved. The first is the change-over, so that this shall be a liability of the State rather than of the employer. I support that first fundamental principle wholeheartedly. I think it deserves our support, and I believe it to be important for us to achieve this. Nothing could be more deplorable than the bad relations which have been created between employer and workman on account of the employer's liability. It has very often been a most unreal fight, the real contestants not being the workman and his employer at all, but very often the trade union on the one hand, and the insurance company on the other—quite unreal fighting, and yet bad blood is caused between the workman and the employer. I think that does damage to industry.
Whether the result of these proposals will be to cause disaffection between the workman and the State is difficult to know, but one can only hope that if the rates of benefit are made adequate, that
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will not happen. I am glad that the hon. Member for Oxford has returned to his place because my view is that his condemnation of these proposals was fallacious. He attacked the whole scheme, but based his argument on the rates of benefit which, he said, went to the core of the matter. He argued that so long as the rates of benefit were as they are, then the principle must be unsound. I do not accept that argument. It seems to me that the principle and the rates of benefit can be divorced from one another, and my hope is that we shall be able to establish the basic principle of making the liability that of the State, and then we shall be able to turn our attention to increasing the rates of benefit.
The other basic change put forward is the payment of a flat rate of benefit. On that aspect of the matter, while I am in agreement with the principle, I understand that this discussion is afforded so that we may make suggestions to the Government for improving their proposals, and I do not believe that this particular proposal is not capable of improvement. I accept, as I say, the principle, but the Government must remember that they have prayed in aid the parallel of war casualties, and they have based their principle on the assumption that all war pensions are at a fiat rate. Of course that is not true in effect, because the war pension is based on the rank which the soldier holds at the time he incurs his injury. It is not therefore true to say that there is any analogy between the. two at all. This matter is dealt with on page 16 of the White Paper, in the last paragraph of which the Government have said that they have explored the possibility of the benefit varying according to compartments of earning, and the objections to dealing with it in that way are set out.
I can see that there are administrative difficulties in taking wide ranges of compartments, but I do not believe it is impossible to have a fairly limited range of compartments. To take a rough example, I believe it would be possible for every workman who normally earns, say, £4 a week to be put in category A; that any workman who had, say, for six months or more been paid between £4 and £6 a week to be put in category B; and any workman who had earned, say,

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for six months or more over £6 a week to be put in category C. I suggest something of that kind, which would keep the matter within fairly narrow limits, would not become administratively out of hand, but yet would enable a situation to be created in which a man who had earned very good wages at one time, and had then been injured, would not be placed when he came to be paid compensation on precisely the same level as the man who had earned very low wages.
Mr. Ness Edwards: Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman indicate to the House how the average rate of earnings would be calculated under his proposal to arrive at the £4, £6, and so on?
Lieut.-Colonel Marlowe: I do not think it would be very difficult, I am only putting forward a broad principle and I am not attempting to deal with the matter in detail. I believe it would be possible—though obviously you could not do it if a man earned £10 one week, and £2 the next week. There would be difficulties there. That is why I suggest that a man should be certified by his employer to have continuously earned, say, £6 a week over a period of six months or so. He should then be put in a higher category. I would add, in answer to my hon. Friend, that once in that category the man would remain in it permanently. That would get over any question of alterations in his rates of wages. Once a man had reached a certain wage level, he should thereafter be regarded as a man capable of earning that wage.
Sir Ernest Shepperson: If a man is in the lower category, would my hon. and gallant Friend agree that he and his employer should pay a lower contribution?
Lieut.-Colonel Marlowe: That would be a matter for consideration. I have no doubt that the man who would be in a higher category would probably be prepared to pay a little extra for it.
Mr. Tinker: The difficulty in the past has been that where a skilled workman has not been able to get a good average wage, his compensation has been based on what he has been getting. Under what the hon. and gallant Member is now proposing, the same anomaly would prevail.
Lieut.-Colonel Marlowe: I am assuming that conditions in the post-war world will not be as unfavourable to workmen as they have been in the past. However, I only put out that idea for consideration. It retains the principle which the Government have put forward in their proposals, and yet allows some elasticity without introducing administrative difficulties. There are one or two other matters in the White Paper I wish to deal with. I want to refer, first, to the payment of the lump sum. I entirely agree with the abolition of this, in the normal fatal cases—
Dr. Haden Guest: The normal fatal cases?
Lieut.-Colonel Marlowe: Yes, the fatal cases are normally dealt with by payment of a lump sum.
Dr. Guest: What about the other cases?
Lieut.-Colonel Marlowe: I was coming to the case where weekly payments are commuted by the payment of a lump sum. The Government proposals are to abolish that altogether. I agree, again, in principle. I think they have been a bad thing, and have led to a great deal more trouble than they were worth and a great deal of unhappiness for many people. Nevertheless, I hope the Government will not shut the door completely. I believe it would be possible to keep open the principle in cases which were considered appropriate. There must be cases in which receipt of a lump sum would make all the difference between an injured workman being able to set up in business of his own, and not being able to get a livelihood of any kind. Of course, I know it is a dangerous thing, because people put money into businesses which they think are good, but which turn out to be unprofitable.
I, therefore, suggest that redemption of the weekly compensation by a lump sum payment should be permitted only under the guidance of the officer responsible. It should be his responsibility to examine the business, and to be sure that before the payment was redeemed in this way the workman was having proper advice, and not putting his money into something which would result in his losing it in a few weeks. I think it would be possible for the officer concerned with the administration to act as a welfare officer to a workman in this regard, and be able to

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give him the necessary advice in order to ensure that, if a lump sum were paid, it would not be lost in a hazardous undertaking within a short time. I put that forward, because I think it would be unfortunate if it were made absolutely impossible for anyone to set up in business by redeeming his weekly compensation.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford on the question of ousting the jurisdiction of the courts. I accept the view that this matter is best dealt with by the local appeal tribunal, and I am content with the appeal which is also set up in the White Paper. But I believe it is necessary that decisions should, eventually, be canalised into a common channel, otherwise there will be divergent opinions all over the country. There will be no established principles, no precedents, to which a tribunal can turn to see what is a governing principle, and I think it would be of benefit to get uniformity in this matter. It would be disastrous if one principle were adopted in one part of the country, and another principle in another part of the country. I am always reluctant to oust the jurisdiction of the courts in any way, and prevent any man, in the final resort, being able to go to the courts. I do not believe there would be a great number of final appeals. The number of appeals at the moment does not represent a great proportion of the number of arbitrations which take place in the county courts, and I believe it would be possible to obtain that final jurisdiction in the courts for these two purposes, so that there would be no possibility of injustice in the end.
Mr. S. O. Davies: Is it not obvious that one case going to appeal could decide hundreds of other cases, that might go to arbitration, via the county courts? That has been our difficulty.
Lieut-Colonel Marlowe: I accept that; it seems to be a good argument for keeping on the courts. I am not attacking the principles set out in the White Paper, because I do not think that county court arbitration has been a great success. I prefer the methods now proposed, but I would like to see some final safeguard so that a workman might be able to go to the courts in the last resort, if necessary.
I would particularly like the Solicitor-General to tell me whether any provision
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is made for interim payment immediately, between the happening of the accident and the decision of the person responsible for dealing with it. I have not been able to find, in the limited time at my disposal, any reference in the White Paper to payments of this kind. As my right hon. and learned Friend knows, under the present system it often happens that whether liability ultimately falls on the workman or not, and whether the insurance company is going to indemnify him in the end, the injured workman is paid right away. There is no reference to that in the White Paper. As this scheme is mainly to be administered by civil servants, it would ill become me to animadvert upon them in any way, but I have known civil servants take a long time to deal with some questions. It is not helpful to an injured workman to be told that the matter will be dealt with in due course. What he wants is his weekly money. I hope that interim payments will be made, and that they will not be recoverable where it ultimately transpires that there is no liability for compensation. It is necessary, for the difficult time following an accident, to be covered.
I want to ask the Government—as a general proposition when dealing with matters of this kind rather than in relation to this White Paper—to refrain from using the expression, "contribution from the Exchequer." It would be much plainer to everybody concerned if it were made clear that this is a general contribution from the taxpayer, because such an expression only perpetuates the false idea that there is a Treasury chest in Whitehall, into which people can dip when they want money. It would be much better to point out that the balance of contributions is to be met by the general body of taxpayers. I do not claim to be expert in mathematics, but on my calculation, the balance required, after payment of contributions by the employer and workman, works out at about twopence per week from each individual taxpayer who is not in the scheme at all. We are only too glad to pay it but it would he as well to say so rather than to say that there is some benevolence coming from the Exchequer when what is coming comes from the general body of taxpayers.
There is also missing from the White Paper any reference to what is known as a declaration of liability under the existing

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scheme. I believe that there is room for such a thing and that it is quite a salutary procedure. It may be that a man may not get compensation at the time, but he may incur an injury which will subsequently entitle him to compensation and it is as well for him to have that protection of a declaration of liability against future contingencies. The Bill, when it comes, may make it plain that it is unnecessary, but at the moment I am not entirely satisfied as to that and, if it is necessary, I hope it will be borne in mind.
It is, I think, quite wrong to condemn these proposals on the question of the rates of benefit. That will get us nowhere. I am not satisfied with the rates of benefit—I do not suppose any of us are—but the really important part of the scheme is the change-over from that atmosphere which has created bad feeling between employer and workman in the past to an entirely different principle. That is the first thing one has to consider, whether one accepts it or not. If one wants to achieve that purpose, as most of us do, it would be a fatal mistake to wreck the whole scheme on the question of the rates of benefit. I think the House will be well advised to accept these proposals, recognising that they are capable of improvement. Let us put before ourselves this choice. The old scheme has many defects. The new scheme has also many defects. I have come to the conclusion that, in a matter of this kind, it is impossible to achieve perfection, but we have to make the choice whether we shall have the old scheme with its defects, or the new scheme with its defects. I come down on the side of the new scheme, with the reminder that, once we have got it, we shall have to be very vigilant to see that the Government lose no time in increasing the benefits.
4.54 P.m.
Mr. Foster: Any criticisms that may come from this side, of any of the details of the scheme, are made not because we desire to destroy it, but because we want to improve it. None of us would be prepared to wreck it if we do not succeed in getting our own way on details. I welcome the scheme, having had many years' experience of the present compensation law, and I believe it will be a tremendous improvement upon the present position. It is a big step forward and those responsible for its authorship,
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whether the Ministers or the Department, ought to be given credit for bringing it forward. The history of workmen's compensation since the Act of 1897 has been one of continued struggle and strife between the workmen on the one hand, and the employers and the insurance companies on the other. The employer has done everything possible to save his costs by reducing the amount of the compensation that he has to pay, because the cost of compensation is an item in his costs of production. He may be able to pass it on in the price of the commodity that he produces, but there are many industries in which he is not able to do so. The injured workman has been the victim throughout all those years. He has been harassed and driven from pillar to post by doctors and lawyers engaged by the employers and insurance companies, who have taken advantage of any flaw in the Compensation Acts to deprive the workman of his compensation.
The insurance companies have been the worst sinners in this respect. They have made millions out of this form of insurance, and have been worse than the employers in hunting and pursuing the injured workman in various ways. The workman has been harassed so much that eventually he has become "fed up" and has been driven to accept a small sum by way of compensation (or lump sum settlement) in order to get rid of the employer and the insurance company and to become a free man again, able to seek such employment as he may be able to get. He has been bewildered by the forces arrayed against him. His future has been no concern of the employers, the doctors, the lawyers and the insurance companies. All they have been concerned about is trying to save the cost of compensation and to avoid payment.
The Acts which have been passed since 1897, instead of simplifying the position, have made it more confusing and complicated and have resulted in a spate of actions in the court. The weaknesses in the present compensation law can be summarised in this way. First there is the basis of entitlement in respect to injury by accident arising out of the employment. Those words are not wide enough in their scope to entitle the' workman to compensation in thousands of cases in which he is justly entitled to it because his condition has either been caused or

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aggravated by the conditions of his employment. The weekly payments are inadequate. There is no provision whatever for any liability on the employer to provide medical and surgical treatment. The workman has been left to obtain it in the best way he can, either by becoming a contributor to a voluntary hospital or through his own panel doctor, or in some other way, or become crippled for life. Again, there is no provision in the present Workmen's Compensation Acts for the rehabilitation of the workman. As an hon. Member on the other side said, that is a very important aspect of this question. I live in a village where a bankruptcy took place in 1931 which left 156 workmen suffering from multifarious injuries, and one can see them to-day walking about the streets, most of them crippled for life. If there had been a proper system of rehabilitation many could have been restored to their original physical condition and most of them could have been made much better. There is no provision for the resettlement of the workmen in industry after rehabilitation. All these factors are important and are related to each other, and unless we can in a compensation or health scheme provide for all of them, we shall not have solved the problem of the injured workman because all these factors are contributions to his recovery and his return to employment.
Mr. Bowles: Does not my hon. Friend, therefore, agree that the first of the points he has referred to depends on the question of entitlement?
Mr. Foster: I do not agree with the assumption that my hon. Friend makes. I intend to say a word or two on the words "arising out of and in the course of the employment." I welcome the scheme because it is a big step forward and will go a long way towards resolving many of the troubles, difficulties and friction which have existed in the past. I accept the scheme, not because it is perfect, for it is not perfect, but because it lays down a general structure which can be improved upon and will have its foundations on to-day and not on 50 or 60 years ago.
I would like now to deal with the question of entitlement to compensation, which is covered in paragraph 33 of the White Paper. The Government say that they propose to retain the words
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"by injury arising out of and in the course of employment." They say that they have given consideration to many other suggestions, but they cannot find any better words. Although there have been a large number of cases which have arisen in the courts out of the interpretation of these words, I do not want to deal with the matter from that angle. There have also been thousands of cases in the county courts and the House of Lords arising out of the interpretation of many other sections of the Compensation Acts. I do not think that there is any other Act of Parliament that bristles with more difficulties. Nearly all the so Sections of the 1925 Act are contentious, and thousands of cases have been taken in the courts on the interpretation of one or another of them.
I want to ask the Minister whether he has looked at the basis of entitlement in the Royal Warrant for War Pensions. Hon. Members will remember the Debate that took place on the basis of entitlement for war pensions and how we got an improvement as a result. I suggest that if we had in a Workmen's Compensation Bill the words that are in the Royal Warrant setting out the basis for soldiers' pensions, there would be less difficulty. I will not say there would be no difficulty, because there will be some difficulty whatever words are used. But if we could have the same basis of entitlement for workmen's compensation that soldiers have for war pensions, it would remove a great deal of trouble. The entitlement in the Royal Warrant lays down the principle which governs the payment of war pensions not only for injury due to war service, but for injury which is aggravated by war service, and also for any condition which may have been aggravated by war service. The Royal Warrant states that the disablement or death of a soldier shall be accepted as due to war service provided it is certified that
"(a) the disablement is due to a wound, injury or disease which (i) is attributable to war service; or (ii) existed before or arose during war service and has been and remains aggravated thereby; or (b) the death was due to or hastened by (i) a wound, injury or disease which was attributable to war service; or (ii) the aggravation by war service of a wound, injury or disease which existed before or arose during war service."
Thousands of cases arise in the mining industry. I refer to that industry for no other reason than that it is a hazardous

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industry, with conditions that do not apply in any other industry owing to the fact that the men are working in the bowels of the earth extracting coal from the strata. There are thousands of cases of men who have to play off work owing to rheumatics, boils, colds, arthritis and all sorts of troubles which can be attributed to the conditions in which they work.
There are any number of men in the pits to-day who are working in water and in conditions where the ventilation is such, due to heat and other things, that a man is not getting the oxygen that he requires to put out his full vigour. He is working in a bad atmosphere. He may be kneeling in water, or having to lie down with his buttocks in water, or to haul coal in water. Because of those conditions, it is easy to have a number of men suffering from rheumatics. The same thing applies to men who are suffering from arthritis due to having to kneel in water. There are different kinds of these troubles. I could name other conditions which are brought about by the nature of a man's work. In some cases a man was suffering from some ailment before he was employed in a particular seam or mine, and the ailment has been aggravated by the conditions under which he has since been working. If such a man had joined the Army or had been conscripted for the Army, and had had a touch of arthritis in his knee before, and, as a result of war service or training, perhaps in Burma or some other country where conditions are very bad, the arthritis was aggravated by conditions there, he would be entitled to pension, under the entitlement to war pension. Why should not that principle apply to men working in the pits or in industry, if the conditions of their employment have caused or aggravated a disability?
I do not want to drive that point any further. I had not intended to speak for so long, but I do ask the hon. Gentleman to look again at the basis of entitlement in the Royal Warrant, to see whether he can agree to something being done, perhaps not just in the words I have suggested, but to apply the principle of the same interpretation for the purposes of paying compensation. I end as I began. I do not believe that the mere fact of paying benefits for injury will be a solution of the compensation problem. I
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believe that we shall have to find a proper basis of entitlement, that there will have to be adequate benefits and that there must be proper medical and surgical treatment. There must also be a proper scheme of rehabilitation. I am glad to say that we have commenced a scheme of this kind in the mining industry. It is doing great work. Last, and not least, once we have rehabilitated an injured workman, we must see to it that employment is provided which is suitable for him. If we can do those things, I believe that we shall have done a great job for the injured workmen.
5.14 p.m.
Lieut.-Colonel Lancaster: I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Foster) on the very helpful contribution he has made to the Debate. Earlier in the day my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) said that he approached this matter with considerable diffidence, in view of the fact that he was opposing in great measure the Government's White Paper. I approach it in no less diffident a manner because I realise that I am confronted from the opposite benches by hon. Members who have had a long and wide experience of matters connected with the old compensation law. On this side, I realise, are hon. Members with legal experience of an equal nature. I would like, for a few moments, to deal with this matter as an employer of labour, anxious to see the best results from the money which it is proposed to lay out in this scheme. I should like to say straight away that I welcome the White Paper and the two principles that industrial insurance should be taken out of the hands of the employers and dealt with by the State and that there should be fiat-rate benefits, at any rate in the first instance.
I have detected a slight degree of variation in regard to what is assumed to be the employers' attitude in this matter. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan) suggested that employers were not concerned with the question of insurance, because that was passed on to the consumer, while the hon. Member for Wigan said that employers were very concerned about it and had, in the past, beaten down the workmen. Whether either hon. Member is precisely accurate in what he said I will not now attempt

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to decide, but I suggest that the real interest of the employer has always been, and will always be, not the question of payment of indemnity to an injured workman, but the fact that a good workman has been lost to his work. Our whole attitude must be to get that workman back to his work at the earliest possible moment. In that connection I would Stress the importance of the scheme of rehabilitation which the hon. Member for Wigan spoke of towards the end of his speech. If rehabilitation is to be valuable and satisfactory it must as far as possible be linked not only to individual industries but connected with training of a type which is not dissimilar to the work of the main industry with which it is linked.
Might I, in his connection, instance coal mining? It is obvious that all men injured in the course of their work in the mines cannot return to work in that industry. It should be possible to connect with the particular rehabilitation scheme to which miners will go something in the nature of light engineering for which the great mass of skilled, and even unskilled, miners may in the course of time be trained. Rehabilitation seems to me to afford an opportunity of recognising at the earliest moment the necessity of some differentiation in compensation paid to different types of labour. I agree that in the first instance, during the period of industrial injury allowance, it can be argued, and I think justified, that two men receiving precisely the same injury and suffering, anyhow in the first instance, the same degree of pain, worry and discomfort, can reasonably be compensated similarly, because that should tend to do away with the extremely anomalous position which has too often occurred in this connection in the past. I equally believe that at the earliest reasonable moment a man's degree of skill should be recognised and that, quite apart from his disability pension, it should be possible to work out some scheme whereby, during his rehabilitation, when we must assume he is undertaking training commensurate with his pre-accident ability, allowances could be paid to him which have regard to his ability.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Tomlinson): May I interrupt the hon. and gallant Member a moment to say that that is already in operation, and that where an
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individual has been injured in the mine or in any other industrial undertaking, and has been rehabilitated, he is sent to a training centre, and gets at the present time allowances and dependants' allowances during training, in addition to what he is getting in the way of compensation.
Lieut.-Colonel Lancaster: I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman, but that does not quite deal with the point I am trying to make. What I am trying to suggest is that there should be maintained at that rehabilitation centre that differentiation between different types of skill. Surely a scheme could be evolved whereby a man undertaking training at that rehabilitation centre could be paid an allowance commensurate with the training he is undertaking. I am not doubting that allowances are paid, but they do not have regard to the varying degree of skill of the men undertaking that training. Where the anomaly arises at the present time is that a skilled man, after a period of loss of work due to an injury, finds his standard of living being depressed below that of the unskilled worker. I make this suggestion with a view to being helpful in regard to a matter which is most important, that is, the review at the earliest reasonable moment of the differentiation between various types of skilled employment.
One other aspect with which I should like to deal is the desirability of linking with this scheme, so far as is possible, a medical service at the mine or in the factory. I believe quite a number of accidents and a good deal of industrial disease, and indeed a certain amount of absenteeism, could be obviated if a man who arrived at his work feeling rather off colour, or indeed who was commencing the symptoms of some industrial disease, was able to have the advantage of being able to apply for medical advice at once, and if the medical organisation was in a position to advise the management, either that day or in the next few days on the employment of that man to make reasonable suggestions for his employment on some lighter work or some alternative work. If we could inaugurate a scheme of that nature it would tend to cut down both the number of accidents and also the proneness to industrial disease.
Colonel Greenwell: Has not such a scheme, with works' doctors, been introduced during the war under the aegis of the Ministry of Labour?

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It has in large areas in connection with one industry with which I am concerned.
Lieut.-Colonel Lancaster: I desire universal application for something which has already been started in different parts of the country. I am advising its universal application as a means of helping the general purposes of this White Paper.
That really is the sum and substance of what I wish to say. I welcome this White Paper. I think it has its defects, and I think it can be improved upon, but the principles to which I have referred, and which have been referred to in greater detail by other hon. Members, particularly the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir W. Beveridge), are sound principles, and if in course of time we can improve both the scale of these allowances and benefits and rates, and introduce some scheme such as that to which I have referred, whereby differentiation can be resumed at the earliest reasonable moment, I feel that it holds out every prospect of being to the general advantage of workpeople and the community as a whole.
5.26 p.m.
Mr. Stephen: I think that with the exception of the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) every Member who has taken part in the Debate has welcomed the scheme. I have heard practically everything that has been said in the Debate, and I have noticed that while all the other Members welcomed the scheme they had about as little to say for it as had the hon. Member for Oxford when they really got down to its consideration. There has been very general criticism of its defects. I would go a little further than anyone else in criticism, and in objecting to the scheme, because I think it is a gross imposition on the working people of the country that they should have this charge imposed upon them to provide for accidents which may happen to them when they are being exploited in the workshop for private profit. I think it is well that that should be said.
I recognise that hon. Members above the Gangway are inclined to accept this scheme because of dissatisfaction with the Workmen's Compensation Act, under which the workers have suffered for so many years. I fully sympathise with that.
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Quite evidently if the Government are to get on with this scheme it will be largely because of the fact that the working-people of the country are so discontented with the treatment they have had in the past with regard to workmen's compensation. I very much doubt, if this scheme becomes a Statute, and is put into operation, whether working people will be very much better off than they are under the present scheme. I notice that there is great satisfaction in the fact that, as was stated by the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton. (Lieut.-Colonel Marlowe), the liability is being taken over by the Government. What is being taken over by the Government is not the liability, but the administration of a scheme in which the workers, as well as the employers, have to contribute the largest proportion of the money that will be necessary for working the scheme.
Then for the carrying out of this scheme we go to the Ministry of Pensions. I have been in this House since 1922–with the exception of a short period from 1931 to 1935 after the hysteria of 1931–and in all the years I have been here Members of all parties have been fighting battles with the Ministry of Pensions in every district of the country. Go where you like, and in almost any street you will find records of the administration of the Ministry of Pensions, working on the procedure that is now outlined for the treatment of the people who will become industrial accident cases in the years to come.
I admit that there is great need for a radical change in the present system: I have joined with hon. Members above the Gangway, year in and year out, in pressing for the reform of the Workmen's Compensation Acts; but I do not think we are getting anything like what we desire in Part II of this scheme of social insurance. It is the old story, so far as the workers are concerned, of feeding the dog on its own tail. I agree with the hon. Member for Oxford in many of his criticisms. The allowances are utterly inadequate. The hon. Member for North Southwark (Mr. Isaacs) takes the case of his compositors, and everybody says, "We will take the scheme, but in the future we will make it something different. If the Government administer this, we shall get something good for the workers in the sweet by-and-by." But, in the

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meantime, the workers will not be satisfied with the treatment that they get when they are injured, while being exploited for profit. The approach is all wrong.
I have never been able to see why a person should be called upon to suffer financial loss, in addition to all the suffering and pain that he endures for months or years, because he has been the victim of an injury for which he is not himself responsible but which arises out of, and in the course of, his employment. To my mind, the only sound basis of compensation is that the injured person should receive full pay while unable to continue his employment. To that, I would add only this qualification. Supposing a man loses a leg or an eye, he should not only get full pay, but also an allowance for the additional expense that he and his family have to meet. Instead of having his income cut down, he should have it increased. That is the only moral basis. I would also say that if the country takes over the responsibility of providing for people who suffer accident in the factories and workshops, should not the country obtain a bigger proportion of the dividends that are earned in the factories and workshops?
During the Home Secretary's speech I questioned him, courteously I hope, and he answered my intervention courteously. I asked him to expand his doctrine that the person who is injured while at work should get a bigger payment than the person who is out of employment. Anxious to win the support of the House, he took the case of the worker who has to endure probably the hardest conditions of any of our industries, the miner. He said that one would not say that the miner who has been hurt in an accident in the pit should not get more than somebody gets under Part 1 of this scheme. But, apart from the additional payments which have to be met during the sickness of the miner, the political philosophy of Members above the Gangway and of my own party is that all should be treated alike.
That is part of the basic Socialist philosophy, which, I thought, was the philosophy of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary. I know it is not the philosophy of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury; he has shown a very different philosophy in dealing with various questions relating to workmen's compensation, during all the years in which I
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have battled in the House with him about them. But what I have indicated is the philosophy for which we have fought, year in and year out. John Smith, who is getting benefit under Part 1 because he is unemployed, is getting that benefit because he is out of work throught no fault of his own. If he is out of work through his own fault, he does not get the benefit for so many weeks. He is out of work because society is not able to provide him with employment. Why should he be penalised? Why should a man who has had an accident have to make this additional contribution, when he was not responsible for the accident? I hope the Government will think again in regard to this question of the form of workmen's compensation.
There is another point. I notice that the hon. Member for Ilkeston (Mr. Oliver), who has, I think, a good deal of experience in connection with workmen's compensation, is a little worried about the words in the Act "arising out of, and in the course of, employment." Other hon. Members also are worried about this. I propose to make my confession, as did the hon. Member for Oxford, that I, too, am a professional advocate, though I have not had so much experience of workmen's compensation as with certain other branches of the law. But I have sufficient experience to know something about the number of cases which have arisen in connection with the interpretation of those words. I remember that, a little after I was called to the Bar, I went to look up something in connection with advising in a case, and I was horrified at the amount of work one had to undertake. I think the idea in the minds of hon. Members in the House, and probably also in the minds of members of the Government, is that we will make this change-over, and then we are going to be free from all that sort of thing.
What is the position? The Government have decided to retain those words. If those words are retained, the insurance officer having to deal with the case has to get down and say "Does this arise out of, and in the course of, employment?" He has to look up the case of So-and-so v. So-and-so, and see whether it comes under this heading or that. It will be obvious that this insurance officer has to be a very highly skilled lawyer if he is to have knowledge of all

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those cases. I wonder if the Government would not have saved themselves a lot of trouble if they had decided to accept the suggestion of the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Foster) to drop those words and avoid reference to the decisions come to on them. Then, probably, under a new procedure, it would not be possible for the same body of case law to grow up around the new phrase. I do not know that it will be an advantage to a person who has an accident. I am doubtful, because I do not like the machinery at all. It is a cross between the procedure of the Ministry of Pensions and that of the Ministry of Labour. I think the industrial commissioner has to act more like the umpire under the Ministry of Labour —the final court of appeal. As regards those decisions on points of law in connection with these unemployed men, I have come to the opinion—from a legal point of view, and even from the point of view of safeguarding the interests of the working people—that the decisions fall a long way short of the decisions of the House of Lords or even of the Court of Session.
Some hon. Members have had different experiences from mine, and I would not be the least dogmatic, but at the same time I cannot see how the new scheme is to work with the industrial officer having to carry all the burden of these hundreds of cases that have been decided in the past in connection with workmen's compensation and arising out of these words. That interpretation will be the interpretation he has to follow. He cannot give a new interpretation. I put it to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury and to the Solicitor-General that they will probably be wise to think again about retaining those words. If this scheme becomes an Act of Parliament, people will be called upon to pay these contributions who have never before paid for workmen's compensation, and, if they find their fellows, who have been injured in factory or workshop, suffering the same kind of treatment that disabled soldiers and sailors have suffered from the Ministry of Pensions, the working classes will turn and rend us. After all the workers have once more contributed in the days of the agony of the country, in this great war surely they are worthy of something better than this. Surely they are worthy of real social security; but they do not
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get it by this scheme put before us in the White Paper.
5.48 p.m.
Mr. Craik Henderson: I must disclose to the House that I am a director of an insurance company, a small proportion of whose business is in workmen's compensation, but I think the House will realise that what I have to say is made without any regard to that. This White Paper is one of a series and one begins to wonder exactly what are the objects of these White Papers and what attention is paid to them. The Home Secretary held out a very flattering picture of what happens after a Debate, following a White Paper, and indicated that the Government would study very anxiously anything said in the House. I think that is, perhaps, looking a little on the bright side, and that it has not been altogether our experience in the past. I think sometimes that the Government feel it is a good thing to provide an opportunitiy for a Debate which does not do the Government any harm, and allows the House to work off steam. We have had, I think, a very knowledgeable Debate so far. I think the speeches have been characterised, on every side, by hon. Members trying to work out the best solution they can. I do not think anyone would pretend that the existing Workmen's Compensation Act is at all satisfactory. It is an Act which, as is admitted on all sides, requires amendment.
There is one point with which I want to deal before I come to some of the other matters mentioned to-day: it is a point which I think no one has mentioned so far. I would like to say something about common law liability. This is a very important right and a Committee is now considering the matter. My hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir W. Beveridge) in his Report makes a suggestion against which I, personally, want to enter the strongest protest as I think it is unfair to the workmen. He said, in paragraph 260:
"But if the alternative remedy proves … to be available, he should not in the end get more from the two sources together than he would have got from one alone."
Supposing a man is injured and the injury arises out of and in the course of his employment and he also has his common law remedy for some negligence on the

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part of the employer which caused the accident; he would be entitled normally to his compensation under Part II of the scheme, but he would also be entitled to proceed against the employer for damages in respect of the negligence. My hon. Friend suggests that if he has both remedies he should be limited to receiving the larger one only. I think that is rather unfair. The workman has contributed his share of the Social Insurance Scheme to the extent of five-twelfths. Two-twelfths have been contributed by the State and five-twelfths by the employers. It is right that when the employer is called upon to pay under the common law remedy he should be entitled to deduct the value of his contributions to the social insurance. The State might be entitled to get another two-twelfths back from that sum. I am convincd that the workman, however, ought not to have five-twelfths of the value of the social insurance claim deducted from his common law compensation. I think that where a workman succeeds at common law seven-twelfths only and not the whole of the value of his social insurance claims should be deducted. I do not think that because you set up a contributory scheme you should thereby take away from the workman another right which he has had for so long. I wanted to make that point because I think it has not been made so far.
Another point on which there seems to be general agreement in the House, is in regard to lump sum payments. No doubt there have been some cases where lump sum payments have been to the advantage of the worker, but the evidence is clear that, in the majority of cases, it is a dangerous procedure, and I think the Government will have the full approval of the House in deciding to withdraw lump sum payments. The point which I was going to make, and which has been made so very much more brilliantly by my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) is how to relate compensation to earning capacity with regard to the tribunals, and the handing over of the administration to the Government. My hon. Friend opposite also had doubts whether this is going to usher in such a marvellous new world, because of the fact that it is being handed over to a Government Department. It probably will go through in that way, and I hope it will be a success, but there is a great deal of delusion, which some of our hon. Friend
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shave done their best to clear away, in imagining from the speech of the Home Secretary that everything now was going to be beautifully simple. The injured man goes to the officer; he is given an easy chair and handed a cigar, and he goes away with the payment in his pocket and the promise of a pension and everything is beautiful in the garden. But the officer who, as far as one knows, will have no particular knowledge, is faced right away with the question that, unless you make the scheme apply to the whole community, there must be some rule laid down to say who is entitled and who is not.
Mr. Stephen: The solution is to make it apply to the whole community.
Mr. Henderson: That is not the solution of the White Paper, and I am dealing with what is in the White Paper. I think my hon. Friend will agree that, as long as it is on this basis, there must be a rule laid down, and whether it is arising "out of and in the course of employment," or some other words, you have to apply legal rules to this question. You will have the same difficulty as you had in the past. Very difficult questions may arise, You go first before an officer and then before a tribunal, presided over by a chairman, with some legal knowledge. There will be local tribunals all over the place and unless there is some co-ordinating body, such as an appeal court, you will have great differences of decision between the tribunals. I look with considerable anxiety upon this proposal. It may be worth while trying the tribunal as a court of first instance but there must be an appeal to a court of law. It is in the interest of the workman that the final decision should not be in the hands of a nominee of the Minister, but in the hands of an impartial and unbiased court. I hope that the Solicitor-General, when he replies, will give a little more information about the local tribunals. I have read carefully paragraph 36 but it does not lay down exactly the qualifications of the representatives of the employers and employees. Is the chairman to be a whole-time man? I would also like to know a little more as to procedure before the tribunal.
The biggest problem under the White Paper arises with regard to the rule laid down in 29 (ii) as follows:
"The Government have come to the conclusion that the only satisfactory solution is

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to abandon the principle of awarding compensation in respect of loss of earning capacity, and to adopt two completely new features for the assessment of industrial pensions. These features are:
(a) To provide, in accordance with the general accepted principle of social insurance, uniform flat rates of pension without regard to pre-accident earnings, but taking account of family responsibilities."
That seems to me a most confused subparagraph. I quite agree that family responsibilities should be taken into account, but in this White Paper the Government solemnly say, in the one sub-paragraph, that according to usual principles of social insurance, uniform rates should apply, and then. immediately they proceed to depart from it by bringing in family responsibilities. It is quite right that family responsibilities should be brought in but something more must be brought in as well.
On all sides of the House the view has been expressed that it is completely unfair to the workman to have no regard to the skill of a particular workman or to what he has been able to earn in the past. It would be quite unfair in the case of the two men working side by side, one of whom has been earning £10 and the other £4, to give them the same compensation. There is an injustice, say what you like, to the man who has been making good wages, who is a craftsman and has served an apprenticeship. He deserves something more in compensation than the man who has not taken the same trouble, and I am sure it will cause great indignation if nothing is done to recognise that. There is the point made by so many hon. Members that, if you do. not relate compensation to earning capacity, there will be tremendous hardships. Many examples have been given but I will take a simple one, the commissionaire and the man who has to use two hands to a machine. If the commissionaire loses an arm, his earning capacity probably is not affected in the slightest, but the other man may be unable to earn at all in the future. Some way must be found to meet this difficulty.
I am sure we will welcome this White Paper as an honest attempt by the Government to improve workmen's compensation—there are differences about benefits and so on—but I would say to the Government, in view of the speeches
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which have been made to-day, that there are two points at least, apart from benefits, to which they should apply their minds anew. One is to give a right of appeal to a court of law, and the second is in some way or another to relate compensation for injury to the loss of earning capacity.
6.3 p.m.
Mr. Moelwyn Hughes: I would remind the House that the system we are seeking to displace, if we adopt the proposals in the White Paper, is one which was devised with the intention of being simple to understand and easy to apply. Statements to that effect were made at the time of the introduction of both the first and second Workmen's Compensation Measures. The earlier Bills were specifically drafted with that object in view, and the administration contemplated was a simple form of friendly arbitration. What has evolved out of that can be ascertained by reference to the standard book on the subject which runs to over 1,400 pages and contains references to 3,400 decided cases. When I remind hon. Members that these are almost all decisions involving judgments in the Divisional Court of two, in the Court of Appeal of three, and in the House of Lords of five learned judges, the House will appreciate that there are in the neighbourhood of 10,000 speeches delivered from the Bench of this country available and effective in the Law Reports to-day, in order to elucidate our system of workmen's compensation.
That system is complicated. It is also costly. From the figures given in the White Paper for the pre-war period, it appears that the cost of its administration was somewhere in the neighbourhood of £3,000,000. I do not know how that figure is to be properly divided up, but I have been told that the proportion which may be allocated to the legal profession and to legal costs, is of the order of £1,000,000 per annum. The system is also dilatory, as everyone who has been engaged in testing workmen's compensation cases very well knows. That is, in itself, a sufficient criticism, but there is the further point that the existing system is based on the principle of ascertaining rights by conflict, by a fight between the insurance company and the trade union. They do not fight as such, of course; they do not appear, they are not even mentioned. The lay figures which move are,

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in fact, the employer and the workman, and it is not conducive to the best relations in industry that workmen and employers should fight this matter out in a court of law.
I heard with some amazement the queer praise for insurance companies that came from the hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Higgs). He seemed to imply that competition among insurance companies led to the best of service in the administration of workmen's compensation. The only competition that these mutual insurance companies understand is competition for business, and the business will go to the company that offers the lowest premium, and the concern that offers the lowest premium can only afford to do so by paying the least possible number of claims. If the hon. Member was right, then insurance companies ought to be going around with placards saying, "We charge no more than the firm next door but we pay far higher claims."
The other condemnation—and this I will not develop because it has been mentioned by many others—is, to my mind, fundamental. The present system is completely unrelated to rehabilitation. Indeed, I go further. The present system stands against rehabilitation. There is nothing that retards a man's recovery more than waiting in uncertainty about how his rights are going to be worked out. Indeed, when it comes to deciding that right as between varied degrees of incapacity, the man is faced with the prospect that if it can once be demonstrated that he could swing his leg a little further last week than the week before, he will be deprived of a few shillings' compensation. Nothing could militate more against the result we all desire.
This is going to be replaced, not, I suggest to the House, as the Home Secretary said, by an advance, but by something entirely new. It is a new system and I welcome it as such. I regret that the new system means taking this work away from the courts of law, and I can base my regrets, not on the ground that the legal profession is going to lose a certain amount of practice, but on the same grounds as those on which the Home Secretary expressed regret for losing it from the Home Office. I think it a pity that courts of law will be deprived of the work of adjudicating upon a matter
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which comes so close to the social life of the community as compensation for injury. But the proposed system is better than the one which it is to supersede.
The Home Secretary threw bouquets to his predecessors, to his colleagues, to the the Royal Commission, and to his officials, and I noticed an expectant look on the face of the Solicitor-General, not in his personal capacity, but as representing the legal profession. My hon. and learned Friend sat expectant but when all the distributions had finished not so much as a petal fell upon his brow. I am sorry that the legal profession, which, after all, in the general administration of workmen's compensation under the existing law, knows more than anybody, has not had a greater share in shaping a better system. I would assure the Home Secretary—and I am sure I shall be borne out in this by the Solicitor-General — that there is a great body of informed and enlightened opinion on the Bench, at the Bar, and among solicitors, which has, for a long time, been in favour of a much better system of workmen's compensation than that which we have to-day. I welcome the scheme because it does, as the White Paper says, bring rehabilitation to the forefront. Paragraph 36 says:
"It will be the concern of the Ministry to see that the workman receives any medical treatment or course of training appropriate to his case."
That is one of the most important aspects of this matter, an aspect which the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) did not mention at all in the course of his attack on the White Paper. This fundamental provision, that it is the duty of the Ministry to see that proper medical attention, treatment and rehabilitation is given to the man, is—
Mr. Hogg: If my hon. and learned Friend will read HANSARD to-morrow he will find that he is wrong. I mentioned rehabilitation and medical services in my opening remarks.
Mr. Hughes: If I have misrepresented my hen. Friend, I apologise.
Mr. Buchanan: Does one great lawyer do that to another?
Mr. Hughes: Under this scheme we are taking the claim to the industrial pensions officer. That removes the conflict of the past. I know that this officer has the

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duty of seeing that there is no extravagance in connection with the funds, but surely the applicant going to the pensions officer is in an entirely different position from the same person seeking compensation from a mutual insurance company. After all, he will be advised and instructed, and there is no need for this pensions officer to be a first-class lawyer, because there is provision in the White Paper to enable him to refer any case he desires to the appeal tribunal. If he is in doubt at all—and he will have fairly elaborate instructions—he can refer it to the tribunal. You can have the human sympathetic touch, quite apart from those arid qualities which one usually associates with a vast knowledge of the law. No phrase has given rise to more litigation than the phrase, arising out of and in the course of his employment." No doubt the draftsman who first drafted it, flattered himself that it was the most comprehensive phrase he could devise, but hundreds of cases have turned on those few words. You do not carry all that burden into this administration. The sum and substance of it can be set out in a pamphlet which will be a good deal smaller than the White Paper we have to-day. These will be instructions to the pensions officer, and he can administer them simply, straight away.
Mr. Bowles: My hon. and learned Friend started his speech by saying that there had been simple and friendly arbitration before county court judges with a further right of appeal. Is he assuming that the new appeal tribunal will not get into the same kind of mess?
Mr. Hughes: Certainly it will not get into any such mess. I commend to my hon. Friend the study of the administration of the Unemployment Insurance Fund.
Mr. Buchanan: Is he aware that umpires have quoted thousands of decisions on workmen's compensation?
Mr. Hughes: It appears that I am in direct conflict with some of my hon. Friends on these Benches, but I was for some time the chairman of a court of referees, and I happen to know something about the system of umpires and the decisions given and published.
Mr. Buchanan: Not always published.
Mr. Hughes: A selection of those which contain any guidance to a court of referees are published in very understandable form. They are available to all courts of referees. I know persons who are still chairmen of courts of referees, who have never made any complaint about any difficulty in understanding or complying with the rules laid down by the umpire and published for their benefit. You have not got, in this administration, anything approaching the complications of workmen's compensation law.
Mr. Buchanan: Nonsense.
Mr. Hughes: The system suggested in the White Paper will lead to a greater simplification, and not to the complications which we have now. In addition, there will be power by regulation to vary and summarise these conditions. They can be collected, put into a regulation, and clearly understood. That is a much simpler system than litigation and perpetual appeal.
I want to say a word on the question of the relation of compensation to wages. I will not deal with amounts, but we have had the curious combination of the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) and the hon. Member for Oxford in this matter. They have both joined in condemning a system whereby compensation is unrelated to wages. The hon. Member for Oxford quoted special cases, as did the hon. Member for Camlachie. So did my hon. Friend the Member for North Southwark (Mr. Isaacs). But they are special cases. There are many miners who have lost a leg. I can take hon. Members to a woodworking shop where you will find that four out of five of the men at work have lost fingers, or parts of their hands. But every one of them is working at the same job as before the accident, and not one is getting a penny of compensation. These exceptional cases mentioned as special pleading bear no relation to the actual total benefit that would be obtained by working people under the system advocated in the White Paper. It is not a question of physical disability alone. It is the loss of amenities. The woodworker who has lost the forefinger of his right hand is still as good a woodworker as he was before. [HON. MEMBERS: No."] To my certain knowledge there are any number suffering from that disability who are

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earning the same wages that they did before, and have kept their jobs for many years. But a man may be fond of cricket, and now he cannot bowl; or he may have played the violin, and is no longer able to do so. This loss of amenities ought to be compensated for. Although some special cases are likely to get less than they otherwise would, working people as a whole will get more compensation under this system than by a system related to wages. Therefore, I welcome its introduction.
Turning to administration, I should like to urge upon the Minister to consider the constitution of the appeal tribunals. In order that it may have the respect that such a tribunal should have, it should be presided over by an independent, full-time chairman, appointed by and removable by the Lord Chancellor and not the Department. I know the criticisms directed against the courts of referees and pension appeal tribunals that exist now. I suggest that the Government should make the position of chairman of an appeal tribunal a more responsible job than either. I think they ought not to consider anything less, putting it on a cash basis, than making it a four-figure job. If that is regarded as being extravagant, the functions of the appeal tribunal can very well be married to those of other tribunals, such as courts of referees and pensions tribunals. The suggestion that a tribunal of this kind is a hole-and-corner method of administering workmen's compensation, passes my comprehension. What is there hole-and-corner about a responsible legal chairman, with two assessors?
Mr. Hogg: It does the man out of a judicial hearing.
Mr. Hughes: Justice can be applied in courts of referees, and in pensions appeal tribunals, as well as in the ordinary courts of law. From that appeal tribunal there is to be a final appeal to a commissioner. I suggest that his position should be even more responsible than that of the chairman of the appeal tribunal. If the system is to command respect, he should be of a status approaching that of a High Court judge. I agree that he should not sit alone. He should be assisted by appropriate assessors. After all, in our judicial system we start off by going before one judge, in the Court of Appeal you have three, and if you go to the House of Lords you have five. I am not suggest-
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ing that we should be tied to these figures but the supreme court of appeal for this system ought to be assisted by some others sitting with him. For these reasons I welcome the scheme suggested in the White Paper.
6.27 p.m.
Mr. Sexton: After listening to the Debate and hearing all the arguments for and against these proposals, I find myself in a quandary. Workmen's compensation has always been a bone of contention and I find now that the bone has been left to me. We have had all the experts, including the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir W. Beveridge); he and various legal Members have been chewing the bone, and now they have thrown it to me. The question of workmen's compensation has always been a burning one among the workers of the country. When I entered the House in 1935, there used to be ballots for Private Members' Bills, and many Members tried to bring in Bills dealing with workmen's compensation. Sometimes they succeeded in the draw, and Bills were introduced, but none of them reached the Statute Book.
The White Paper itself shows how complicated the situation is, under the present system, and how it has grown up from 1897 to the present time. It is not an easy question to tackle, and we are glad that the Government have produced this White Paper, not because we all believe in the principles enunciated in it, not because we believe that this is the final word to be said, but because, in the words of the Motion, the existing system is to be replaced by a new one. That is leaving it open. I take it that what has been said in the Debate will influence the Government to some extent when they introduce the legislation. No pledge is being given by the Government or by anybody else that the terms of the White Paper will be the terms of the Bill to be introduced, and we look forward to the Bill showing some relation to the Debate on the White Paper.
We are now introducing a new scheme and it will be based on a new principle. What we shall have to do is to try and weave a new Workmen's Compensation Act into the equally new fabric of a comprehensive social security system. That is the problem with which we are faced, and it will be a very difficult one, needing all the energy and intelligence of this

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House. We are to set out a workmen's compensation scheme, not isolated, but woven into a greater and more comprehensive scheme of social insurance. Because it is a new scheme based on new principles, we need not be afraid of it. We must consider carefully whether the new methods will be an improvement on the old. Where they are an improvement, they should be adopted, and where they are not, they should be rejected. Up to 50 years ago nothing was done for the injured worker. All through those 50 years there has been growing a social conscience that something must be done for him. We have reached the stage when we are going to make a State scheme combined with a general social insurance scheme. There is need for more awakening in the social conscience even yet. In the early days of workmen's compensation the cases were few compared with the numbers now.
Figures have been given to-day, and I would like to repeat them. Take the mining industry. I have in my division thousands of miners, who will be interested to know whether I have taken part in this Debate. In 1942 there were 837 miners killed and 158,445 injured and disabled for more than three days. These are appalling figures. The last Report of the Inspector of Factories shows that for the same year, 1,363 persons were killed in the factories and non-fatal but reportable accidents numbered 313,267. That makes a total—I will not say a grand total, for it cannot be described as that—of 2,200 killed and 471,712 injured. What a procession, what a colossal parade. What a tragedy. We cannot realise it. That is not the whole picture, however, for there are the dependants who are also victims of accidents and death. As many more can be added, so that we get nearly 1,000,000 persons affected by accidents in 1942. We are inclined, when we deal with such large numbers and when they are so far from the House of Commons, to treat them impersonally as figures. We want to introduce what some people call "sob stuff" into this matter. It is necessary sometimes, when we are considering social reforms, to bear in mind the sobs and tears that are represented in the tragedy of workmen's accidents.
We want to consider the human aspect more. To do that I want to imagine that
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there is an injured person at the Bar of the House. If one were there, we would be able to deal with him as a person, and say to him, if these figures in the White Paper stand, "You have earned £5 a week. You have been injured and you cannot work. Accident has reduced your earning capacity. An Act of Parliament will now accentuate the position and rub it in, by saying that you shall have 35s. per week." It is sometimes said that, prior to these proposals, the workers did not make any contribution, but the workers have always made a contribution. Under the old workmen's compensation arrangements they contributed in mutilation and disfigurement and, financially, in an, indirect way, by loss of wages. They have always paid their contribution and they have paid a bigger contribution than anybody else.
So I ask, Is this House of Commons going to be so callous and hard-hearted as to say to a man who has been earning £5 a week, if he has a wife and no children: "You have to live on 43s. 9d, a week, for both of you, which means a trifle over a guinea each, far so many weeks. Then it may rise to the magnificent sum of 50s."? The benefits are totally inadequate. When the Bill comes to be introduced, it will be the work of Members in all parts of the House who have at heart the workers, their accidents and the tragedy of their homes, to see that those rates are considerably increased.
I notice in the White Paper that the Government have a very pretty phrase. They emphasise that the basis of benefits should be:
"for whatever he has lost in health and strength, and the power to enjoy life."
There is a pretty phrase, "the power to enjoy life." Think again of the man and his wife standing at the Bar of the court of justice here, and of our saying to them: "We are giving you 43s. 9d. per week. You may have all the enjoyment of life you can possibly get out of it." What can they get out of it? Not a bare means of subsistence. I know that the Government have rejected the idea of subsistence, but in this case they have not done so. In the last resort the couple can always go to the Assistance Board, have the means test and get subsistence in that ignoble and degrading way. No, this House must see to it that the mathematicians and the lawyers not only have their say but that they must never be allowed

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to forget that there is a human problem at the basis of these proposals, and a human tragedy which has to be viewed from a human point of view.
6.39 p.m.
Dr. Haden Guest: I welcome the White Paper, not on account of the details, subject to criticism, but because it is a turning away from the old system of workmen's compensation associated with litigation and the insurance societies, to which my hon. Friend the Member for North Southwark (Mr. G. Isaacs) made scathing reference. The old, existing system of providing for the payment of compensation through the insurance societies has led to abuses which I do not think are sufficiently known to Members of this House or to the general public. It is a bad system. It is a niggardly system. One who, like myself as a doctor, has worked in connection with these workmen's compensation insurances cases and workers' insurance societies, knows that the object of the insurance society is to pay the least possible amount of money to the insured, and that it results very frequently in very serious injustice. There are, certainly, companies who actually employ doctors for the purpose, we can only say, of bullying their clients into accepting payments which are unfair.
I was interested when my hon. Friend was speaking about a society and giving certain evidence of its activities. I knew those postcards. I had for a short time to send them out myself. I was one of the doctors employed by the organisation, and I was expected to make the people who came to consult me return to work at the earliest possible date before they were, in my opinion, really fit to do so, and to accept lump sum compensation when, in point of fact, it was not the right thing for them to do so. Quite naturally, I fell out after a very short experience of this company, and we parted company. I have been told they have improved since that time. My hon. Friend the Member for North Southwark hardly agrees that that is the case. Some of these companies are really scandalous institutions, and I am extremely glad to know they are to be put out of business because of this scheme. If it was only for that I should rejoice that this scheme has been brought in.
I shall not deal to-night with the rates of benefit to be paid. I will leave that question to my trade union colleagues on
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this side of the House, because they know from intimate personal experience the details of large ranges of occupations, and they will know how to criticise and how to amend this scheme when, in the form of a Bill, it comes before the House. But I do beg the House to look a little beyond that, because this White Paper, when it is implemented in a Bill, will enable us to look on this whole question of industrial insurance from an entirely new point of view. It will not any longer be primarily a question of paying people money and arguing about whether it is to be much or little. It will be a question of seeing that the man or woman can as early as possible be made fit, and then. by rehabilitation, return as far as possible, and it is possible in a large proportion of cases, to the full functioning of their arms or legs—in fact to exactly the condition they were in before the accident took place. I believe that a great deal more can be done by medical treatment and rehabilitation than is known even by my hon. Friends on this side of the House who are themselves trade unionists experienced in these cases.
To those who wish to pursue the matter further and see how much can be done, I would suggest that some of them go to see, as I have recently done, the Emergency Medical Service hospitals, where medical treatment and rehabilitation are carried out for the Army. It is really a revelation of what can be done. It is not only the percentage of cures, in the ordinary sense of the word, from wounds that is very high indeed, but the percentage of people returned to 100 per cent. capacity of what they were pre-injury is great. I took the opportunity during the Parliamentary Recess to spend about a fortnight touring round the country seeing a very large number of hospitals. I will not weary the House by describing all the things I saw. I merely state that because what I am now saying is based on that very recent experience of what is going on at the present time. What can be done is first-class. What is being done is first-class, but I must warn the House that at Lite present time there is more talk about the value of rehabilitation, and more interest expressed in rehabilitation as an idea, than in fact there is rehabilitation being applied, outside military establishments. I will not go into details about the Army and the Air Force and other institutions, but I will

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go so far as to say that if it had not been for the improved medical treatent and the improved rehabilitation that we have got in our Army medical service and in the medical services of the other Forces, it would not have been possible for us to fight this war to a successful conclusion, as we are doing. It has meant an enormous reinforcement of our Forces. It will be just as important after the war for us to have those who are wounded in industry rehabilitated, in order that they may carry on and contribute to production.
I make this point, not merely to stress the medical aspect of this problem—because we have heard a great deal of the legal aspect—but because I believe that in the Bill to implement these workmen's compensation proposals of the Government's social insurance scheme, there should be a Clause giving the workman, or the workwoman, a definite right to medical treatment and rehabilitation. That will make a great difference. Speaking as one who has actually done work of this kind, and speaking from recent Army experience also, I know that there are not sufficient medical and rehabilitation institutions in the country to deal with the industrial situation. We have heard something of the very excellent place at Mansfield, and there are one or two other places, but they are very few indeed. We need more of them. We cannot carry out the excellent intentions of this White Paper without improved arrangements for medical treatment and especially for rehabilitation. Let me again say that rehabilitation is not a thing that can be turned on with a tap, not a thing that can be mass-produced, not a thing that only means doing exercises for the arm or the leg. It is a question of the whole mind and the whole body. The patient has to be put into the right frame of mind.
I recently had the opportunity of seeing a place called The Derwen, at the village of Gobowen in Shropshire. It is under the charge of Dr. Rhaiadr Jones, who is the adviser on rehabilitation to the Ministry of Health. In that place there were something like 400 officers and men, doing all kinds of different work which interested them—weaving, making ties, repairing and making boots, metal work, and all
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kinds of things. There was an extremely happy atmosphere in that place. That institution, of which I have spoken to the various Ministries concerned, should be taken as a pattern. It is doing extremely successful work for the soldiers and airmen who are there. I stayed there for two days, and visited all the parts of the institution frequently, and I never saw any people there who were not happy the whole time. It is not often that is the case in a hospital. I mention this, not for the purpose of paying a tribute to the institution, but in order that the advice of Doctor Rhaiadr Jones may be taken by the Government, and that they may establish big-scale rehabilitation services in this country. If there is in this Bill a right to rehabilitation and to medical treatment, and the Government take measures to set up a rehabilitation service on a big scale, we shall not only get a workmen's compensation scheme, which will be an excellent thing in itself, but we shall open a new chapter in industrial rehabilitation in this country.
6.50 p.m.
Mr. Tinker: What I want to say I can say in 10 minutes. With the general scheme itself, I agree. I think it is a big step forward to improve workmen's compensation. It falls short of many things that I would like to see, but, in matters like this, it would be unwise to condemn a scheme which has so much in it. While giving our agreement to it, however, we want to point out many of its defects. I have listened carefully to practically all the speeches made. We have had both the lawyers and the doctors on the job, but the best part of all is the contribution from workmen who have been through accidents themselves and know what is taking place. Those are the people to whom the House of Commons ought to pay close attention. It is the knowledge we have of the actual work in the mines and factories that we can bring to the service of this House, and, in giving any help we can in that direction, to try to alleviate the sufferings of men and women who meet with accidents, we are doing our duty and a good job of work.
The hon. Members for Wigan (Mr. Foster) and Ince (Mr. T. Brown) have given a graphic picture of what takes place in the mines in Lancashire. I want

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to impress upon the House the need of trying to give something higher by way of compensation awards, when the Bill comes before the House, than is now contained in the White Paper. I think the present rate is too low. If we are not bringing in what I call the "letting-up" on the rise in the cost of living, we ought to make it a decent standard now, though I agree that if the Government, by some means or other could keep prices stable, that would be the best thing. If they cannot do that, then at least while discussing this White Paper, I want them to bear in mind that we are not satisfied with the amounts offered as payments for accidents.
I want to put forward a point on behalf of the workmen. Hitherto they have never paid directly for workmen's compensation. It has never come out of the earnings of the workmen, but we should not lose sight of the point that they have paid to it by other ways. Take the conciliation boards and the wages agreements, particularly in regard to the item of costs, other than wages. Indirectly, they have paid for it in the past; in fact, the worker always pays for everything, though it does not come directly out of the wages packet. Now this does come out of the wages packet, and the workmen will ask us whether they are not to get something better from this scheme than they did under the other.
This is to be a contributory scheme, and the Government should recognise that the men will first ask themselves "What are we getting that is better than we got before?" Unless we can satisfy them on that point they will look upon this proposal, great as it is, as unsatisfactory. The fund will be maintained by weekly contributions of employers and workmen, with a contribution from the Exchequer. I could never understand why the whole of this payment did not come directly from the Exchequer. In the past it has been said that the employer, having to pay for the compensation, took very great care against accidents and looked after safety methods. We are now taking the matter from the employer. The safety methods will be looked after by the State, and the general feeling that prevails is that we should put the whole of the cost on the community through the Exchequer. Men in industry, wherever they are employed, are creating wealth for the community,
1498
and all the cost of that ought to come directly from the Exchequer. It could be got by the Income Tax method. That has not been done up to the present time, and we have been led away by the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir W. Beveridge) who set up this insurance scheme, and we have not been able to get away from it.
Sir W. Beveridge: I did not invent social insurance. That was done by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George).
Mr. Tinker: The hon. Member will excuse me when I tell him that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) put it into his hands, to get this scheme going, and the hon. Member set about it on an insurance basis. He got the trade unions to say that they would accept it, and since that time we have not been able to get away from it. I am told that we had some kind of agreement with the hon. Member and we cannot get away from it. We told him that we would agree to the insurance basis. It has been followed step by step, and I want to tell him that he is the villain of the piece. I do not mean that in an offensive sense. The hon. Member has done a great work in this matter, and I want to give him credit for it. If he had got away from the insurance basis he would have been more welcome in the House of Commons. I can never understand, in times like these, when we recognise that this is a social problem, why the whole matter cannot be dealt with directly by the State.
We on these Benches will support the White Paper. We are agreed on that because we see good in it, but in supporting it we are hoping that the Government Benches will not be deaf to our appeal on many points which we shall put forward. If they will say when the final reckoning comes that they are convinced by our arguments that some increased compensation ought to be paid, I believe that the scheme will be acclaimed throughout the country. I hope that they will weigh that up and carry with them the good wishes of our side for a successful scheme.
Ordered:
"That the Debate be now adjourned."— [Mr. Beechman.]
Debate to be resumed To-morrow.

PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE (SERVICES REGISTER)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Beechman.]
7.0 p.m.
Sir Richard Acland: I would like to take the opportunity to ask the Government one or two questions, and perhaps to make some suggestions of my own on this issue of what steps can be taken, to make as sure as we can that serving soldiers overseas feel that they are participating, as fully as possible, in the General Election which we are promised will be held in seven or nine months' time, and, in particular, what steps are being taken to let them know the constituencies in which their proxies are voting, the issues before the electors, the candidates standing, and so forth. I reserve the right, of course, on future occasions to criticise the scheme as a whole but, for the purpose of this half-hour, I accept the general outlines of the scheme and I would like the Minister to tell us what is to be done within it. I am sure that the Minister will agree that the scheme, as it is, cannot achieve perfection. I will not say we are trying to make the best of a bad job but we are trying, within the scheme, to do the best we can, in a situation Which of itself rules out an absolutely perfect solution, to allow the soldier, sailor and airman to appoint a relative or friend as a proxy to vote in this country on his behalf when he is overseas. That is all very well as far as it goes, but even if there were to be 100 per cent. registration and 100 per cent. appointment of proxies we might find, if the Government took no very definite steps, that, in effect, what was happening was that the proxies were getting two votes and that the soldiers overseas were not really getting a vote at all.
I can see a situation in which soldiers stationed overseas, while certainly they will know a General Election is pending from such newspapers as trickle out to them and circulate in the different camps, and may know, in a general way, a certain amount as to what the election is about, will not know in what constituency their proxy has to vote, what candidates are standing, and will not necessarily have any correct knowledge of the issues being discussed in this country at the time.
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I might leave it at that and ask if the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Ernest Brown) will tell us as much as he can but, having raised this issue, I think it is up to me to try to make one or two suggestions. I might preface them by saying that I am only too well aware they are very inadequate and do not meet the case. I would like to feel that other people will have suggestions to make, and that the Government has bigger and better ideas. Let us take the first question. The soldier serving overseas very often will not have any idea in what constituency he lives. Of course, if a man lives in Exeter, he know his vote is in Exeter, but a man who lives in Bristol may not know in which part of Bristol his proxy has to vote. A man who lives at Ottery St. Mary may not know whether he votes in the Tiverton or the Honiton division, and so on. I suggest to the Government that it would be a wise decision now to print and send out to the various theatres where soldiers, sailors and airmen are likely to be stationed, rather detailed constituency maps of this country, because I think that is the only way of doing it. A soldier can then go to the place where these maps are to be found and can say, "My proxy lives at such a place; please tell me in which constituency I live." We might not get 100 per cent. results but, in most cases, the soldier would know in what constituency he has to vote.
The next thing he might want to know is what candidates are standing. That, I appreciate, is a pretty difficult question, because nomination day comes so very near to polling day—I think there are only nine days between the two. To wait until nomination day is hopeless and, therefore, in this matter I am sure there will not be anywhere near 100 per cent. results. But I think a great deal can be done, because it seems that a reasonably long time before polling day, within a fortnight or so of the date when the General Election is initiated, a very large number of bona fide prospective candidates will be in the field. Their names will be announced, and it will be possible, within a fortnight of the initiation of the election, to telegraph, to the places where members of the Forces are stationed, a list of the candidates. The candidates might be charged £10 each for that service, and the receipt might be taken as part payment of their deposit, which

1501
they might only get back if they safeguarded their deposit.
As to the issues on which the election will be contested, the practical point seems to arise now that there are certain printing facilities in the various theatres of war where the "Eighth Army News," "Trunk Call," and various other newspapers are printed. These facilities could be used provided, of course, adequate supplies of paper were at hand when required. It would be no use granting facilities if steps were not taken to make sure that the necessary paper was at hand at the right time. I should have thought that it would be possible to cable out, from the representatives of the different political parties concerned, a rather full statement of what the issues of the election really were. Of course, the argument as to the allocation of space might come in here, and some independent Members of Parliament, for instance, the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), myself, and the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) and his friends might not get so much. But I am not arguing on these grounds at all. In the same wav as there is an allocation of wireless time at an election, I think it would be possible to put before a considerable number of Service men and women a fair and balanced picture of the issues which were being discussed in the country at the time of the election.
If that were done there remains one last thing. The Serviceman abroad, having found out what constituency his proxy lived in and, with luck, the names of the candidates who were standing, then has to direct his proxy to which candidate his vote shall go. There needs to be thought out in advance the possibility of there being a heavy load on the cable, air mail and airgraph services just around the time of the election. I would like to think that the Government Departments concerned were making sure that they would not run the risk of communications being delayed, because it would be a great grievance if many proxies received instructions a week after the election had taken place. These are the ideas that have occurred to me. I am only too well aware of their inadequacy but I hope the Minister will be able to add to them, and I suggest that this aspect of the scheme is, possibly, a subject on which it would be useful to have
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discussions between the Ministers concerned, a number of interested Members of Parliament, and perhaps the agents or servants of the main political parties to see how the thing could best be handled so as to be sure that the intention of bringing these soldiers in as much as possible shall be fulfilled.
7.11 p.m.
Mr. Turton: I do not feel that the hon. Baronet has got to the root of the trouble. It is something wider that we have to look at. I do not think Servicemen are satisfied that the system will be workable in the Election after the German war is over. I should like to ask how far the Government have made investigation into the system adopted by the Dominions After all, it is some time since the Government made their decision that voting was to be by proxy. There has been a great change in the situation and it looks as if it might be possible to improve matters, especially for troops serving on the North-West European front. I feel that we should give the serving man every opportunity of taking his part in what will be the decisive election after the German war. I fully share the hon. Baronet's view that the soldier should be told the names of the candidates, and it would help if the Service Departments would print a constituency map at an early date, because the more the soldier is made aware of the facts of the election the better will be the result achieved in securing the verdict of the democracy.
7.13 p.m.
Mr. John Dugdale: I think the hon. Member who has just spoken has made a very important point. I have been very worried about the whole system of proxy voting. It may turn out all right or it may not. It may be that a man will give his proxy a considerable time before the election and, when the election comes, he may have quite different ideas. I would suggest that we look not only at the system that they have in the Dominions but into the American system. I understand that during their election registration officers were dropped by parachute and they collected the votes, and in that way men actually serving in the front line, and isolated from the main body of troops, were able to record their votes. I think it is worth while looking into it to see if we could not get some

1503
system by which electors could register their votes directly instead of by proxy.
7.14 p.m.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Ernest Brown): I think it will be agreed that the hon. Baronet has done a great service by raising this issue. It is one on which the House will be agreed as a whole, that members of the Forces, whether serving at home or abroad, should have not merely the fullest opportunity of making their vote effective in the first General Election after the war, but that they should take, as far as possible, a living and active part in that election. At the moment we rest do the Act of 1943. Those Members who look back upon the Debate on that Measure will realise that the atmosphere of a year ago was different from that which we have now. A year ago a General Election seemed to the House a very long way away, and my hon. Friend the Member for Barnstaple (Sir R. Acland) was much more concerned about incidental by-elections than about the long trend. I do not state that by way of complaint, but merely as a fact. It was clear in those Debates that the weight of argument in favour of that Measure was largely influenced by the fact that another system in the previous war did not seem to have achieved the best results for the troops. I have in mind a speech delivered by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) on that point. I cannot discuss alternatives save as they have been alternatives in the past, because any alterations in the Act of 1943 would require legislation.
I want to point out what the situation is. Under the Act of 1943 preparations are now going forward to make arrangements for Service voters, and they are going on in every theatre of operations. The various Service Departments, with great energy, and the Ministry of War Transport, which is responsible for merchant seamen, are doing their best to get two things in the simplest way. The first is as complete a registration of Service voters, both men and women, as can be got, and the second is the appointment of as definite proxies as can be obtained to vote for our Service men and women. That is being done with great energy, and the various returns that have been made in answer to questions by my right hon. colleagues will show the progress
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that has been made from time to time. My hon. Friend raised three separate issues and made certain constructive suggestions about them. I have noted that he reserves his right to challenge the whole basis of the Act of 1943. I have no doubt that he will do it or that other Members may care to imitate him, and that my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton, who took the other view in 1943, will doubtless do the same.
The other alternatives are a system such as we had last time, partly voting by post and partly by proxy, and a vote on the field, which, of course, is a very different thing. I would say a word about the American and Dominions arrangements, because I do not think that they should necessarily be taken as guides for us. Our Forces are scattered in literally thousands of units in many fields of operations, in a much more complicated and varied way than the forces of our Dominions; and our system of elections under the present law affecting 640 Members of the House means a much more complicated and difficult problem of distribution and arrangements than the problem set to our friends in the various Dominions.
I do not, of course, raise this in objection to any other form, but as pointing out two things. The first is that the problem they are set is not the same as ours, and that any solution wanted will be a solution which fits our particular set of circumstances. It is clear that, whatever we do to carry out the law of 1943, we want to make sure that it is effective, so that we get what everyone wants, the fullest participation by the Serviceman, in the great decision which is to be made at the end of the German war.
Having said that, I would not care to draw a comparison or a parallel with the American system, because its whole basis is so different from ours. The joining together of the election for the President and for representatives is so different, that I do not think we could usefully adapt it to our own needs; but it is very important—I agree with the hon. Baronet—
that Servicemen, especially those abroad and afloat, should be able to keep abreast with the more important political and social developments at home. It is for that reason that, throughout the whole of the war, in contrast to what happened during the war in which some of us took part in

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1914 to 1918, there has been a perpetual, factual system of education, on a scale never yet undertaken by those who have been responsible in this country for the Forces of the Crown. All those who have taken part in it will agree that every attempt has been made to be utterly fair and to be factual, and to give our friends the members of the Forces the basis of making up their minds on the principal issues of the day as these have been thrown up from time to time.
Sir R. Acland: That is exactly the trouble. It is because these lectures and the rest have been so fair and have been so careful not to offend either Left or the Right opinion that, so far from showing the issues involved in the Election, they have concealed them. For instance, there has never been a single leaflet containing a single argument in favour of Socialism.
Mr. E. Brown: My hon. Friend interrupts me a little too early. I was not dealing with the point he was making, but with my own statement that there had been a factual and fair attempt at providing all Servicemen and women with the basis for arriving at their own conclusions. My hon. Friend is rather inclined to underestimate the capacity for making up their minds on controversial issues of those who receive these factual leaflets. It is a little habit, and it may cause a great deal of amusement in the barrack-rooms of the troops. The second thing that has happened has been that we have done our best to facilitate to the troops, and with a great deal of success in North-Western Europe, the maximum distribution of our own national newspapers, so that they might get a clear idea of current affairs. I have no doubt whatever that when the German war ends and we get to that period where war is no longer peril, battle, valour and risk, but boredom, it may be possible to make a very great extension of those facilities.
The real issue is how far the Government themselves, in carrying out their own plans, can devise schemes for doing three things. The first is to make sure that the voter knows his own constituency. This is not as easy in detail as it sometimes seems in general, especially if he happens to be a voter in a very large city, where the lines of demarcation of the various divisions are not easy to be defined, even if one has lived in the city all one's life. The second is to see they get
1506
a fair representation of the candidates for whom votes are to be cast; and the third, that they get an idea of the actual issues on which the election is being fought. There is a great variety of fighting units, and the seven seas of the world to be covered—thousands of units and hundreds of ships. I will only say this to my hon. Friend. The Prime Minister has said:
"No one is more anxious than I am that every facility possible and practical, having regard to the fact that fighting is still going on on an increasing scale, should be given if possible to the troops, to understand what are the policies for which the opposing candidates stand and for recording their votes on the largest possible scale. That is our intention. It would be disgraceful if, through any lack of forethought on our part, these men … were deprived of their opportunity to do so. I say all this under the reservation which may be imposed by the force of physical events."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd October, 1944; Vol. 403; c. 742.]
That is how the Prime Minister himself stated his outlook and the outlook of the Government. I promised my hon. Friends who have spoken in this Debate to-day that the detailed and constructive suggestions that have been made inside the present plan of the Act of 1943 will be conveyed not only to the Prime Minister, but to all the Departments concerned. There are many Departments concerned in this matter.
I can assure the House that the Government will do their best, when the time comes, to see that the objectives we all have are fully realised, so that those who have, by their valour, their sacrifice, and some of them with a long service overseas, won the right to a definite voice in the choice of who is to govern them in the period when the German war is over, and the first General Election takes place, shall feel that the scheme is an efficient scheme, that they have had a fair chance of participating in it.
Mr. Driberg: Could I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question on one point of detail? Could he say what happens in the case of a man who does not know which his constituency is, who has no domicile and who does not know where he will live after the war?
Mr. Brown: At present the system is that there is a buff card which is at the unit headquarters. Wherever the man may be it is presented to him. He is then asked to state his address.
Mr. Driberg: And if he has no address?
Mr. Brown: If he has not an address he is asked to say where he thinks he would have been living but for his service or other circumstances ancillary to his service. He has then a choice of stating what that address will be, so that his name can go on the register for that particular constituency, and of doing the second job at the same time on this little buff form, which is a very simple and clear one, of naming, if he so desires—there is no compulsion about it—the proxy he desires to act for him in the event of a General Election taking place.
Mr. David Eccles: Surely the way to get this information to the troops is by wireless? Could I ask the Government to make sure that a real plan of broadcasting is laid on, and that all these units have receiving sets so that
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they can receive the information when the time comes?
Mr. Brown: There are two great differences between this war and the last to which I did not refer in my speech, but which have not been overlooked by the Government and those concerned. They are very great differences and very great advantages for the troops—
It being half an hour after the conclusion of Business exempted from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order, as modified for this Session by the Order of the House of 25th November.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine Minutes after Seven o'Clock.

AGRICULTURE
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Preamble
The House met at twelve of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
The Viscount Long—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his nephew.

H.R.H. THE LATE PRINCESS BEATRICE: MESSAGE FROM THE KING.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, I have to convey to the House the following Message from the King, signed with his own hand:
"I thank you sincerely for your loyal and dutiful Address expressing sympathy with me in the loss I have sustained by the death of my great-aunt, the Princess Beatrice. I greatly appreciate your affectionate interest in all that concerns myself and my family."

THE LATE LORD MOYNE.
12.10 p.m.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT CRAN-BORNE) (Lord Cecil): My Lords, during recent months it has been my melancholy duty to express the sorrow of your Lordships on the death of many distinguished members of this House. But in other cases, with the exception of those Peers who have fallen in action, those of whom I have spoken have all been men who have died full of age and honour. To-day, we mourn one who has met his death, in the plenitude of his powers, at the hand of an assassin. The fate of Lord Moyne is not unparalleled in our history, but such events are fortunately rare, and when they occur they come on us with a, sense of horror and shock.
I do net intend to speak this morning of the detestable crime which ended his life, its occasion and its motive. This is not the time for that. To-day, we think of Lord Moyne himself, the loyal and courageous colleague whom we have lost.
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He was a man, I think, of very uncommon qualities. It is not merely that he was brave. Many men are brave; but Lord Moyne was more. He had, in the highest degree, that spirit of daring which delights in danger. And, what is even rarer, he combined this adventurous spirit with a wide scientific outlook, and a mature and sober judgment on public affairs. These are qualities which, in modern times, are seldom seen in combination. When one thinks of him one is reminded of one of those soldier statesmen who made the Elizabethan era one of the shining periods of our history. Finally, he was, in the fullest sense of the word, a modest man. With all his outstanding and varied abilities he never thought highly of himself. As the Prime Minister said in another place yesterday, when he was asked, early in the present war, to return to the Government as Under-Secretary in the Department in which he had been the Minister, he did not hesitate. He put himself at the disposal of his country, in whatever position he might be useful. This, my Lords, was typical of his whole life.
Many of us came to know Lord Moyne best as Leader of your Lordships' House. We shall not forget his quiet thoughtful speeches and his constant courtesy and kindliness to all who came to him with their problems. He was a brave and patriotic Englishman, an able and devoted public servant, who has been taken from us at a time when he was doing work of vital importance for his country. These things are difficult to understand. But at any rate we can be sure that he died as he would have wished to die. He leaves to us a gracious memory and a glowing example. We shall not forget him, and we send to his family our heartfelt sympathy in their irreparable loss.
12.15 p.m.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I feel myself in the same difficulty as that mentioned by the noble Leader of the House, in his opening sentences, in rendering a fitting tribute to our colleague in this House who has been the victim of this senseless assassination. As the noble Viscount said, on different occasions, during recent weeks or months, we have had to pay tribute to those of our colleagues who have either died fighting in action or, as he says, have died full of years and honour. In this case we are paying tribute

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to one whom many of us have known personally as a friend for many years; one who gave an example, I think, of self-denying public service which was consistent and conspicuous all his life. He was a man to whom his wealth made no difference, except that it provided for him fuller opportunities of service.
I would like to associate myself with what the noble Leader of the House has said of his modesty and his retiring disposition. I remember very well his record of bravery in the last war on many occasions. The noble Leader has also mentioned a fact which I myself have noted: that was the conspicuous example of the quality of Lord Moyne's character which was manifested when he took, at the beginning of the war, the post of Under-Secretary at the Ministry of Agriculture, where he had previously served as Minister. We all remember, too, how, when he was Leader of this House, he continually extended to us his tactful and friendly help, and I know that he was a Leader who had the respect and, I may say, the affection of members of all Parties. To all of them, as I have said, he was ever helpful.
There was another side of Lord Moyne which some of us knew—I myself knew it fairly well—and that was his great interest in natural things, which he extended as a traveller. In between the periods of his public service he seemed to welcome opportunities for extending his travels, and improving his very great contributions to knowledge of natural things. He might have had leisure, but he continually denied it to himself. I always had the impression, when talking to Lord Moyne, that behind his quiet exterior he had in his conscience a feeling that it was his duty to render public service. He rendered it without intermission, and he used every opportunity of doing so. As the noble Leader of the House has said, he lived and died in the service of his country.
12.19 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, as the Leader of the House has said, sadly too often, in these years of war, have we had the melancholy occasion to pay our tribute of respect and gratitude to men of leadership who have passed from among us, but never before to one who has met so tragic an end as Lord Moyne.
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He was at the height of his powers. He had spent his life in a succession of services to the State and to the public. He occupied a key position of great importance in the world situation with conspicuous success. He had the right to look forward to a future prospect of further usefulness. And now he has been suddenly cut off by the hand of murderers. It was indeed a wicked and a dreadful crime.
We are glad to know that the crime cannot be laid to the account of Egyptians, in whose country it took place. On the contrary, members of the Egyptian Police showed the highest courage and devotion to duty in the face of great danger, and I feel sure that this House would welcome any action which might be taken by His Majesty's Government, with the approval of the Egyptian authorities, to show their appreciation of the courage and efficiency of the members of the Egyptian Police in effecting the arrest of the desperate assassins of a British Minister of the Crown. Those murderers have not yet been identified, but your Lordships will understand the distress that I feel, having given five years of my life, as High Commissioner of Palestine, to the building of a new State there, and to aiding a movement inspired by an intense idealism and hating every kind of violence, priding itself on its humanitarian spirit, to think that it may be possible that these murderers have come from the Jewish Palestinian population. If it should prove to be so, that population, I feel certain, will see that it is vital to extirpate from their midst this hateful group of criminals.
Lord Moyne touched life on many sides. He had interests in science and in art; as a soldier in the last war he was three times mentioned in despatches, and won the Distinguished Service Order and bar. In politics he served for very many years in the House of Commons and in various high offices in the Government. He was active in the service of this House, and attained the highest position in its gift, that of Leader, in which he won a universal popularity. Such is the man whom we mourn, and such is the memory which his family amid their sorrow may always cherish.
12.23 p.m.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF YORK: My Lords, I should like in a word or two

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to associate myself with the speeches which have just been made. Five years of totalitarian warfare, with a growing record of suffering and cruelty, sometimes threaten to benumb the emotions of indignation and pity; but when we heard of this wicked crime there arose in us a deep sense of indignation against the men who had committed this murder and against those who had instigated it. Even greater was the sense of our sorrow for the loss which this has meant for the nation. Lord Moyne has occupied many positions in the public service; in all of them he has served conscientiously and faithfully. He was a man of many interests and of great personal generosity. At the moment that he was struck down he was holding a post of quite exceptional importance. He has died in the service of his country. To his family—and I understand that his children are now on active service—we tender our deep sympathy in the sudden blow which has fallen upon them. I am sure we also feel deep sympathy with the widow of the young chauffeur who was murdered at the same time.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: My Lords, as a very old friend of Walter Moyne, and as his Government partner at the Ministry of Agriculture, I should like to add my humble tribute. Nobody who served with or under him could fail to be deeply impressed by his ability, his modesty, his courage his transparent integrity and his great personal charm. Reference has been made from both sides of the House to his modesty, and it is surely no exaggeration to say that seldom has any man entrusted with tasks of grave responsibility discharged them with greater modesty and self-effacement. He was a great Britisher and a truly white man.
THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: My Lords, I should like to add a short tribute to the words which have been spoken in memory of Lord Moyne. His official activities are well known to your Lordships, but I was associated with him in another capacity. On the death of Lord Lloyd, Lord Moyne, in spite of all his other duties, assumed the Presidency of the Seamen's Hospital Society. He did not allow that to be a sinecure in any way; he attended all our meetings and grasped the problem very quickly, so that in a very short time we had the advantage of his acute and clear mind in solving our problems. He found time during his last
910
visit to England to come to us and refresh his knowledge of what was going on in that hospital, and also in the voluntary hospital world generally. I speak not only for the society to which I belong but also for the whole of the voluntary hospital movement when I say that by the death of Lord Moyne that movement has lost one who would have proved a true friend and a very wise counsellor in the difficult years that lie ahead.
12.27 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, I would ask you to allow me in a few sentences to add an observation. I hesitate to do so, because what has been said by the noble Lords who have already spoken has been so admirably said, and I think, taken together, these speeches present a very just picture of the man who has gone. But the relations between the Woolsack and the Leader of the House are necessarily close and special, and I had the experience, when Lord Moyne was our Leader here, of having many opportunities of estimating his real character, his deep and single-minded integrity, and his complete selflessness in any discussions one had with him.
I think that from his life there is a lesson to be learnt, and one which it is right to point out now for the consideration of others. He was a man, as has been said, of great wealth. He was a man who had a wide range of interests and tastes. He was devoted to exploration and travel, and he had the most genuine interest in natural history and nature generally. He was one of those wealthy men who showed a real interest in beautiful architecture. He was devoted to yachting. It would have been very easy for such a man to have abstained from the daily burden of public life; and certainly he never entered public life with any ideas of ambition or personal advancement. Yet here we have a man who deliberately chose to render the service which he was called upon to give with cheerfulness, with modesty and with efficiency, and, as has been pointed out, quite indifferent to whether the duty he was asked to undertake was one which would be regarded in the world as of the greatest importance or not. That has a lesson for us all. Lord Moyne's life is an example of the truth that public spirit is the salt of democracy, and as long as

911
this country contains men who are willing to make that contribution in the spirit in which Lord Moyne made it this country will continue to be respected and loved.

PROLONGATION OF PARLIAMENT BILL.
Brought from the Commons; and read 1ª.

AMERICAN COAL MISSION'S REPORT.
12.30 p.m.
LORD SOUTHWOOD: My Lords, I beg to ask the question standing in my name.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government, whether they propose to secure permission to publish in full at an early date the American Coal Mission's report on the coal-mining industry in this country; and, if not, will they supply the reasons for not so doing.]
LORD TEMPLEMORE: As my right honourable friend has stated in another place, the report of the United States Coal Commission to the Combined Production and Resources Board has not been published either here or in the United States but a summary of the main findings of the report was issued as an official release to the Press in both countries on the 23rd August. Full consideration was given to the proposal to publish this report but the Government have decided not to do so because much of the information contained in it was made available on the understanding that it would not be published. Furthermore it would be undesirable to set a precedent of publishing confidential joint reports to the Combined Productions and Resources Board.

TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING BILL.
12.32 p.m.
House again in Committee (according to Order):
[The LORD STANMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 21:
Power to extinguish highways over land acquired for purposes of this Part.
21.—(1) The Minister may by order extinguish any public right of way over land which
912
has been acquired or appropriated and is for the time being held by a local planning or highway authority for the purposes of this Part of this Act, or which has been acquired by a Minister thereunder and is for the time being held for the purposes for which he acquired the land.
(3) Where on the application of a local planning or highway authority an order is made under this section extinguishing a public right of way, and at the time of publication of the notice required by the last preceding subsection there was under, in, upon, over, along or across the land over which the right of way subsisted any telegraphic line belonging to or used by the Postmaster-General,—
(a) the power of the Postmaster-General to remove the line shall be exercisable notwithstanding the making of the order.
LORD WOOLTON LORD WOOLTON moved, at the end of paragraph (a) in subsection (3), to insert:
"so, however, that the said power shall not be exercisable, as respects the whole or any part of the line, after the expiration of a period of three months from the date on which the right of way is extinguished unless before the expiration of that period the Postmaster-General has given notice to the local planning or highway authority of his intention to remove the line or that part thereof, as the case may be;
(b) the Postmaster-General may by notice to the local planning or highway authority in that behalf abandon the said line or any part thereof, and shall be deemed, as respects the line or any part thereof, to have abandoned it at the expiration of the said period of three months unless before the expiration of that period he has removed it or given notice of his intention to remove it."
The noble Lord said: This clause has been discussed with the Post Office and with the County Councils' Association. I do not think it need take up very much of your Lordships' time. The effect of the provision of the Bill as it now stands is that the Postmaster-General retains permanently the right to remove a telegraph or telephone line on the stopping up of a highway under the clause, and moreover that he is entitled to recover the cost of the removal from the local town planning authorities or the highway authorities as the case may be. The effect of the Amendment is this. In the first place there is the limit of a three-month period in which the Postmaster-General may decide whether to exercise his powers. Secondly, if the Postmaster-General does not exercise those powers of removal, the apparatus vests in the local planning or highway authority and any obligation under the Telegraph Act shall cease to apply. Thirdly, the costs which

913
the Postmaster-General is entitled to recover are limited to those incurred in providing a line in substitution of the old line and any necessary connexions that may be required.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 36, at end insert the said words.(Lord Wooltom.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD WOOLTON: The next two Amendments are consequential. I beg to move they be agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 29, line 39, leave out from beginning to ("in",) line 43 and insert ("providing, in substitution for the line and any telegraphic line connected therewith which is rendered useless in consequence of the removal or abandonment of the line, a telegraphic line").
Page 29, Line 44, at end insert
"(d) where under paragraph (b) of this subsection the Postmaster-General has abandoned the whole or any part of a telegraphic line, it shall vest in the local planning or highway authority, and the provisions of the Telegraph Acts, 1863 to 1943, shall not apply in relation to the line or part in question as respects anything done or omitted after the abandonment thereof."—(Lord Wooltom.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 21, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 22 agreed.
12.36 p.m.
Clause 23 [Extinguishment of rights of way, and, rights as to apparatus of statutory undertakers]:
VISCOUNT FALMOUTH VISCOUNT FALMOUTH moved, at the end of the clause, to insert:
"(10) Where by reason or in consequence of the extinguishment of any right or the imposition of any requirement under this section, or of the operation of any provision of this Act, any apparatus used for the purpose of the carrying on of a statutory undertaking, or the whole or part of any asset or property used for that purpose and not purchased under the powers or for the purposes of this Act, is rendered useless or unavailable or unsuitable for use for that purpose, the provisions of subsection (8) of this section shall have effect as if the apparatus or asset or property or part thereof were apparatus of which the right of continuance or maintenance had been extinguished under this section and, in addition, the person carrying on the statutory undertaking shall be entitled to recover from the authority or Minister at whose instance or for whose benefit the right was extinguished or the requirement was imposed, or such other provision was put into operation, compensation to an amount equivalent to the cost of the provision and laying down or erection of the apparatus or of the provision of the asset or property or part
914
thereof, less a reasonable sum in respect of depreciations of the apparatus. Any difference between the said person and the authority or Minister as to the amount of such depreciation shall be determined by an official arbitrator under, and in accordance with, the provision of the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919."
The noble Viscount said: The object of this Amendment is to deal with the position in which the statutory undertakers will find themselves under the Bill. The object of the Bill is to replan "blitzed" areas. Many of your Lordships will have seen the plans which are proposed dealing with these areas. The areas will be entirely different in lay-out to what they were originally. Many of the streets have been entirely obliterated and indeed many of the areas are designated for entirely different purposes to those for which they were used before they were "blitzed." The public utility authorities under old arrangements have laid down many miles of gas, water and electricity mains at very great expense. Those who have incurred that expense will lose the value of it under the Bill. One of the great problems in connexion with the supply of these utilities is the cost of distribution. No matter how cheaply you may generate your product, whether electricity, gas or water, the cost of distribution always remains very high; in fact one might say that the difference in cost between the laying of the cable and the electricity generated at a power station is doubled almost by the time the light reaches the consumer owing to the fact that the undertakers have to bear the enormous cost of this great network of distribution.
The object of this Amendment is to enable the utility undertakings to recover from the authority or Minister at whose instance these alterations are brought about a sum of compensation equivalent in amount to the cost of laying down or erecting apparatus or the provision of the asset or property or a part thereof, less a reasonable sum in respect of depreciation. The Government have been very generous in the way they have treated public utility undertakings in the various transactions that have taken place in connexion with this Bill, and I hope when the noble Lord in charge of the Bill comes to reply he will treat this Amendment in the same way as other proposals have been treated and consider it favourably.
Amendment moved—
Page 32, line 13, at end insert the new subsection.—(Viscount Falmouth.)
VISCOUNT MERSEY: I would like to support what the noble Viscount has just said. The expense of re-laying gas mains at the present time and no doubt electric cables also is very great indeed. Your Lordships will readily understand what the large alterations the Bill proposes will mean in cost to the public undertakers.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think your Lordships will appreciate that the point raised by my noble friend behind me supported by the noble Viscount opposite is an important and a very far-reaching one. It is not by any means peculiar to this particular Bill. Before statutory provisions are made it is necessary to consider very carefully the terms in which they are expressed. For instance, direct compensation for direct loss may be one thing, and if you are not careful you may use language which will let in claims of a most indirect kind. That cannot be done without our being sure what it is we are doing. There was, as no doubt noble Lords know, a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons in 1939 which discussed the breaking up of streets by statutory undertakers, and they made a Report which pointed out the difficulty, but at the same time indicated that in future something ought to be provided. I believe that since then the Solicitor-General has been good enough to take part on behalf of the Government in a conference with various interests about this matter before this Bill was introduced.
I am prepared to say on behalf of the Government that there is undoubtedly a serious claim to be considered here. On the other hand, I do not think it would be possible for us to accept this Amendment. I think certainly it would be quite wrong to provide for it in this special Bill. It is a wider thing than that. I would venture to ask my noble friend who has moved whether he would not feel that the best course, having in mind my assurance that we realize there is a difficulty here that has to be properly met, and met by some general legislation, after very full consideration of the proper provisions, would be to withdraw the Amendment and rely on that assurance.
VISCOUNT FALMOUTH: In view of what the noble and learned Viscount has
916
said, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment. It is a most important point to which he has drawn attention. It is most desirable to reduce the coat of these various services as much as possible.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 23 agreed to.
Clause 24 agreed to.
Clause 25 [Relief of statutory undertakers from obligations rendered impracticable by exercise of powers of this Part]:
LORD WOOLTON: The next is a drafting Amendment, which I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 36, leave out ("they think") and insert ("he thinks").—(Lord Woolton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.
12.42 p.m.
Clause 26 [Provisions as to burial grounds]:
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON moved, at the beginning of the clause, to insert:
"(1) Any consecrated land, whether or not including any building, which has been acquired or appropriated by a local planning authority for the purposes of this Part of this Act, or which has been acquired by a Minister thereunder, may, subject to the provisions of this section, be used in any manner, whether or not involving the erection, construction or carrying out, or maintenance, of any building or work—

(a) by that authority or by any other person, if that use conforms with planning control, or

(b) in the case of land acquired by a Minister, by him or on his behalf for any purpose for which he acquired the land,

notwithstanding any obligation or restriction imposed under ecclesiastical law or otherwise as respects such land:
Provided that the provisions of subsection (4) of this section shall have effect to the exclusion of the provisions of this subsection as respects consecrated land being or forming part of a burial ground.
(2) Any use of consecrated land authorized by the preceding subsection, and the use of any land, not being consecrated land, acquired or appropriated as therein mentioned which at the time of acquisition or appropriation included any church or other building used or formerly used for religious worship or the site thereof, shall be subject to compliance with the prescribed requirements with respect to the removal and re-interment of any human remains and the disposal of monuments or other memorials, and of fixtures and furnishings, and, in the case of consecrated land, subject to such provisions as may be prescribed

917
for prohibiting or restricting the use of the land, either absolutely or until the prescribed consent has been obtained, so long as any church or other building used or formerly used for religious worship, or any part thereof, remains on the land.
(3) Any regulations made for the purposes of the last preceding subsection—

(a) shall contain such provisions as appear to the Minister to be requisite for securing that any use of land which is subject to compliance with the regulations shall, as nearly as may be, be subject to the like control as is imposed by law is the case of a similar use authorized by an enactment other than this Act or by a Measure or as it would be proper to impose on a disposal of the land in question otherwise than in pursuance of an enactment;

(b) shall contain requirements relating to the disposal of any such land as is mentioned in the last preceding subsection such as appear to the Minister requisite for securing that the provisions of that subsection shall be complied with in relation to the use of the land; and

(c) may contain such incidental and consequential provisions (including provisions as to the closing of registers) as appear to the Minister to be expedient for the purposes of the regulations."

The right reverend Prelate said: I rise to move a very long Amendment, but I think I can introduce it in a very few words. The clause with which we are concerned deals with burial grounds, whether consecrated or unconsecrated. It is quite clear that if a burial ground is compulsorily purchased, some special steps have to be taken to safeguard the decencies in such a case. I pointed out on the Second Reading that for the first time, I think, a wide general power has been given by Parliament in this Bill to purchase by compulsion churches and church sites. There, again, it is quite essential that there should be safeguards, where such a purchase takes place, that the decencies, if I may so call them, shall be observed. It is very rare for a church to be purchased. It has been passible in the past, Jut every denomination has been perfectly free to make its own conditions in selling a church, and in the Church of England a consecrated building could be sold only on certain conditions which are laid down by Statute, which require that the building shall be demolished or, if not demolished, shall be restricted in its use, and so forth and so on.
The purpose of this Amendment is simply to insert in this Bill the normal safeguards that are taken by Statute law in the case of the private sale of a church, and the Amendment is so drafted that it
918
refers not only to the buildings of the Church of England but to any religious building, and I speak on behalf of all denominations who are equally interested in this particular case. What it secures is that where the church is thus purchased the dead shall be properly removed, the furniture and fixtures shall be properly cared for and, if the denomination so requires, the building itself shall be demolished, or otherwise shall be used only for certain specified purposes. I think I need say no more than that. I think the Committee will agree that this is an obviously right Amendment and that it is necessary to avoid the possibility of some improper use of a consecrated building taking place.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 45, at beginning insert the said new subsections.—(The Lord Bishop of London.)
LORD WOOLTON: I shall be glad to accept it.
LORD LATHAM: Might I inquire of the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of London, whether, under this clause, if agreement could not be reached—I am willing to admit that that may be an unlikely circumstance—there is any procedure provided in this clause or otherwise so that the impasse can be resolved?
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: Does the noble Lord mean if agreement is not reached about the purchase of a church?
LORD LATHAM: About the conditions to which you refer.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: I ought to have pointed out that, under the Amendment, the safeguards are secured by regulations of the Minister. That is what the Amendment requires, and the Minister, in making those regulations, shall see that all the proper safeguards are therein contained, including any required by Statute or Measure; and he is governed by those. There can be no failure to agree because the final word about what is to happen to a consecrated building which is to be purchased must remain with the denomination. It cannot stop the sale of it but, if it is purchased, it can say: "The church must now be demolished."
LORD LATHAM: Would that be the case if purchased under the compulsory purchase procedure?
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: That is what I am trying to make clear, that if a consecrated building is purchased compulsorily by a local authority, they cannot then do what they like with a consecrated building. They must be restrained from doing anything which is repugnant to the nature of the consecrated building and to the associations gathered round it. It may be that the denomination would say: "We are willing for this to be used as a public library;" but if they feel any insecurity that it might be used for a funfair, a meat market, or what-not, then they have the power to say: "It must be demolished when bought."
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD WOOLTON: The next is purely a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 5, at beginning insert ("in the case of land acquired or appropriated by a local planning or highway authority")— (Lord Woolton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: The next two Amendments are consequential on the previous Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 35, line 19, leave out ("the proviso to the") and insert ("subsection (2) of this section and the proviso to the last").
Page 36, line 15, leave out ("the reference") and insert ("references").—(The Lord Bishop of London.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD WOOLTON: This is merely a drafting point. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 36, line 22, after ("planning") insert ("or highway").—(Lord Woolton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: The next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 36, line 27, leave out from ("such") to ("of") in line 28 and insert ("obligation, restriction or enactment as is mentioned in subsection (1) or (4)").—(The Lord Bishop of London.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 26, as amended, agreed to.
LORD WOOLTON LORD WOOLTON moved, after Clause 26, to insert the following new clause:
Authorization of use and development of open spaces, etc. acquired for purposes of this Part notwithstanding statutory restrictions.
"( ).—(1) Any land being, or forming part of, a common, open space or fuel or field garden allotment, which has been acquired or appropriated by a local planning or highway authority for the purposes of this Part of this Act, or which has been acquired by a Minister thereunder, may be used in any manner, whether or not involving the erection, construction or carrying out, or maintenance, of any building or work,—

(a) by that authority or by any other person, if that use conforms with planning control,

(b) in the case of land acquired by a Minister, by him or on his behalf for any purpose for which he acquired the land, notwithstanding anything in any enactment relating to land of that kind, including any enactment, whether public general or local or private, by which any such land is specially regulated.

(2) In this section—

(a) the expressions "common", "open space" and "fuel or field garden allotment "have the meanings assigned to them respectively by Section thirteen of this Act;

(b) the reference to conformity with planning control shall be construed in accordance with subsection (3) of Section twenty of this Act, with the substitution for references therein to anything done as therein mentioned of references to any use of land, whether or not involving the doing of any such thing.

(3) Nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing any act or omission on the part of a local planning authority, or of any body corporate, in contravention of any limitation imposed by law on the capacity of such a body by virtue of its constitution, or as authorizing any act or omission on the part of any person that is actionable at the suit of any person on any ground other than contravention of any such enactment as is mentioned in subsection (1) of this section."
The noble Lord said: I understand there is some doubt as to whether land that is now an open space and has been acquired can be used by the planning authority on condition that elsewhere they provide another open space, and the purpose of this clause is to make it quite clear that such is the case.
Amendment moved—
Page 36, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Wooltom.)
LORD LATHAM: I wish to enter a caveat: I assume that the acceptance of this new clause will not prejudice the reconsideration of an Amendment which has

921
been handed in and which is to be dealt with on the Report stage in regard to the Green Belt.
LORD WOOLTON: No.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 27 and 28 agreed to.
12.50 p.m.
Clause 29:
Control of development carried out by interim development authorities and responsible authorities.
(5) The Minister may make regulations with respect to the manner in which applications for consent may be made under this section, and with respect to the granting of consent thereunder, and in particular provision may be made by any such regulations—
(a) for dispensing, in relation to any such development as may be specified in the regulations, with the necessity for such consen
LORD WOOLTON LORD WOOLTON moved, in paragraph (a) of subsection (5), to leave out "specified in" and insert "determined by or under." The noble Lord said: Under the subsection as drafted the regulation must specify the development for which the dispensation from the need to obtain the Minister's consent is granted. Whilst such dispensation as regards my particular class of development might normally be justified, particular instances within a class might arise where the Minister's consent would be desirable. By this Amendment we hope to give directions to secure that result.
Amendment moved—
Page 39, line 31, leave out ("specified in") and insert ("determined by or under").—(Lord Woltom.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 30 [Power to suspend planning schemes and reimpose interim development control]:
LORD WOOLTON: The Amendment to this clause is a drafting Amendment to secure that the "material date" for the purpose of a revoking or varying scheme shall be consistent with the date on which the interim development provisions come into operation on the suspension of the scheme which is being revoked or varied. The importance of the "material date" is that if development is carried out thereafter without permission, compensation is
922
not payable if it is removed or altered thereafter in contravention of the planning scheme.
Amendment moved—
Page 4o, line 31, leave out ("of the order") and insert ("on which the order was registered as aforesaid").—(Lord Woolton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3o, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 31:
Obligation to purchase war-damaged land where development permission refused.
(2) Where notice is given to a local planning authority requiring them to purchase an interest in pursuance of the preceding subsection, the authority shall as soon as may be notify to the Minister that the notice has been given, and also whether in their opinion the conditions precedent to the valid giving of the notice are fulfilled, and thereupon the Minister—
and subject to any direction given under this subsection the notice shall take effect at the expiration of the said period of two months:
Provided that if the owner in question or the local planning authority or the interim development authority (if that authority is not the local planning authority) so desires or desire the Minister shall before deciding whether or not to give a direction under this subsection afford to the owner and the authority or authorities an opportunity of appearing before and being heard by a person appointed by the Minister for the purpose.
(10) References in this Act to land which has been acquired and is for the time being held by a local planning authority for the purposes of this Part of this Act include references to land acquired by such an authority under this section which has not for the time being been appropriated by them for any such purpose as is mentioned in subsection (3) of Section seventeen of this Act.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to insert after paragraph (c) in subsection (2):
"(d) if he is satisfied that, having regard to the probable ultimate use of all or any part of the land as respects which the notice is to take effect, it is expedient so to do, may direct that as respects the said land or part thereof the authorization to purchase and notice to treat referred to in the preceding subsection shall be deemed to have been given and served respectively to and by such county council as may be speciefid in the direction in lieu of the local planning authority;"
The noble and learned Viscount said: The reason for the decision of the local planning authority, on an application for permission to carry out development in the case of a war-damaged property, may be some requirement of the county council; for example, where the war

923
damaged building is on the lines of a proposed new road the county council would not wish the building to be restored. This Amendment has been put down really in view of the representations of the County Councils' Association. They pointed out that it really would be better in such a case that the county councils should acquire direct, and that is what the Amendment provides. I think that is not open to challenge.
Amendment moved—
Page 42, line 13, at end insert the said new paragraph (d).—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD LATHAM: I take it from what the noble and learned Viscount has said that this casts no additional obligation upon a planning authority, but gives them apparently an additional right.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes, I think that he is right.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in the proviso of subsection (2), to leave out all words after "Provided that" and insert:
"Where the Minister proposes to give a direction under this subsection he shall give notice of the proposal, with such particulars as appear to him requisite, to the persons concerned, that is to say,—

(i) as respects a direction under paragraph (a), (b) or (c) of this subsection, the owner in question, the local planning authority and the interim development authority (if that authority is not the local planning authority),

(ii) in the case of a direction under paragraph (d) of this subsection, the local planning authority and the county council in question,

and if any of the persons concerned desire to make representations with respect to the proposed direction the Minister shall determine whether or not to give the direction until he has afforded to the persons ,concerned an opportunity of appearing before and being heard by a person appointed by him for the purpose.
Where the Minister gives a direction under paragraph (d) of this subsection he shall as soon as may be give notice thereof to the owner in question."
The noble and learned Viscount said: This proposal partly improves the machinery and partly it is consequential on what we have done. It provides expressly for notice of the proposed directions under paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of Clause 31 (2) as well as for notice of the
924
direction under the new paragraph (d). The proviso to subsection (2) will not require the Minister to communicate with owners or authorities unless he thinks he is going to give a direction. The owner and the interim development authority are not to be entitled to a notice of direction under paragraph (d), as they are not concerned in that matter. Otherwise we should have unnecessary notices given to people who are not interested.
Amendment moved—
Page 42, line 27, leave out from ("that") to end of line 23 and insert the said proviso.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD WOOLTON: The next Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 44, line 1, leave out ("planning ").—(Lord Woolton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after subsection (9), to insert:
"(10) A county council may contribute towards the expenses incurred by a local planning authority under this section, and Section forty-nine of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932 (which provides for the manner in which expenses of county councils under that Act are to be defrayed and confers on county councils power to borrow), except the first proviso thereto, shall apply to expenses incurred by a county council under this subsection as it applies to such of their expenses as are mentioned in the said Section forty-nine."
The noble and learned Viscount said: This is a useful Amendment, and again I think the suggestion came from the County Councils' Association. The effect will be that a county council will be empowered to contribute towards the expenses incurred by a local planning authority under the clause and to borrow money for the purpose. Where the ground of the decision on the interim development which made a contribution necessary was for a purpose of the county council, the local planning authority might very often be unwilling itself to bear the cost. So the proposition is that the person who calls the tune shall pay the piper.
Amendment moved—
Page 44, line 7, at end insert the said new subsection.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is only drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 44, line is, leave out ("for the time being been") and insert ("be disposed of by them, or").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 31, as amended, agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to transfer Clause 31, as amended, to follow Clause 10. The noble and learned Viscount said: It is thought better to move the clause back in the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Transfer the clause, as amended to follow Clause 10.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 32 to 39 agreed to.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, if it suits your Lordships' convenience, I suggest that we should adjourn for our luncheon interval and resume the sitting at two o'clock.
House resumed.
House adjourned at one o'clock and resumed at two o'clock.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: My Lords, I think before we proceed it might be to the convenience of the House if I consulted your Lordships about the further business with regard to this Bill. As your Lordships know, our original intention was to get through the Committee stage by this evening, and in that case the Bill as amended in Committee would be in the hands of your Lordships by to-morrow night. There would then be enough time to consider any Amendments which you might wish to put down in time for us to take the Report stage on Monday next. Then we should have taken the Third Reading on Tuesday next. We have made quite satisfactory progress so far, but it is just possible that we may not get through the Committee stage to-day. In that case the Bill as amended in Committee would not be in your Lordships' hands until Friday, and that would hardly give enough time for noble Lords to put down Amendments for the Report stage on Monday. In that event, I would suggest with all deference that the best course would be to cancel the meeting of the
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House on Monday and to meet on Tuesday at 12 o'clock, and to take the Report stage and Third Reading on the same day. We have to get the Bill through by Tuesday, and it would be impossible, if we do not sit on Monday, to allow two days for Report and Third Reading. I do not wish, by anything I have said, to give noble Lords any encouragement to prolong the debate in Committee. It would be much more satisfactory to all concerned if we could get through the Committee stage this evening and I hope that will be done. But if we are unable to complete the Committee stage to-day, I suggest that we must cancel the Monday sitting and take Report and Third Reading on Tuesday.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I anticipated that the noble Viscount the Leader of the House would make this suggestion, and as far as I and my friends are concerned we will do our best to fall in with his views.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: Might I ask when it is proposed to take the Prolongation of Parliament Bill?
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: That I understand will be taken to-morrow. If the Committee stage of the Town and Country Planning Bill remains over, that must take precedence, but of course if the Committee stage is completed to-day that will make the situation very much easier. It will be taken to-morrow.
LORD ADDISON: Might I ask another question? Is it proposed to take the Bill for the establishment of a Ministry of Social Security this Session If so, perhaps the noble Lord would tell us when.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: It will be taken next week, but I would not like to go further than that to-day. It is suggested that it might be taken on Tuesday, but we have already got the Third Reading of this Bill for that day and it might not be possible, in addition, to complete so important a measure on Tuesday. I would like to consult the Labour and Liberal Leaders about that.
LORD ADDISON: The noble Lord will realize that I have no desire to make difficulties at all but the Report and Third Reading of this Bill might take considerable time. Of course the Prolongation of Parliament Bill does not greatly

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concern this House and discussion of it might not take long, but the other measure is a matter of considerable importance and should not, I think, be passed without at all events a reasonable amount of discussion.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: Your Lordships will remember that that measure has not yet come to us from the other place and the date when we can take it is dependent on when it is sent up to us.

TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING BILL.
2.7 p.m.
House again in Committee:
[The LORD STANMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 40:
Designation of buildings of special architectural or historic interest.
(2) As soon as may be after any list has been compiled or approved under this section, a copy of so much of the list as relates to the area of any local planning authority (or, if the list is a list approved subject to modifications, a copy of so much of the list as modified as relates to their area) certified by or on behalf of the Minister to be a true copy thereof, shall be deposited with the clerk of the local planning authority, and also, where that authority is not the council of a county borough, with the clerk of the council of the county in which the area is situated.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The first Amendment on the Paper is to enable the Minister to amend any list of buildings of special architectural or historic interest compiled under this clause. The proposed words are a necessary addition to the clause. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 29, at end insert ("and may amend any list compiled or approved under this section").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 31, after ("section") insert ("or any amendments of such a list have been made").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT ESHER VISCOUNT ESHER moved, in subsection (2), after "section", to insert
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"such list shall be published and", The noble Viscount said: I am hopeful that the noble and learned Viscount will look with favour on this little Amendment. Although these lists will be made primarily for the guidance of local authorities they are of interest not only to local authorities. They concern firstly the general public, secondly, to an even greater extent, the owners of the properties in the lists, and thirdly, all those bodies who are perpetually interested and engaged in preserving buildings of architectural and historic importance. I think the noble and learned Viscount would agree that it is only democratic to give these lists as much publicity as can be given. These voluntary societies of all sorts are accustomed to act as watch dogs not only against the developer and exploiter, but also against the carelessness and ignorance of local authorities and the carelessness and ignorance even of the central Government. There should be no atmosphere of secrecy about these lists.
There is a precedent for the publication of lists of this character under Section twelve of the Ancient Monuments Act, 1913, which provides that the Minister of Works shall from time to time cause to be prepared and published a list. I am not quite sure in my own mind whether it is necessary actually to legislate on this point, or whether the noble and learned Viscount would consider that an assurance would meet the case. If he could give some form of assurance that administrative action of this character would be taken, that would satisfy me. But surely the Government cannot be averse from the public being told what is going on concerning a matter of such wide interest and importance. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 31, after ("section") and insert ("such list shall be published and ").(Viscount Esher.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Government are in sympathy with the object that has just been explained by the noble Viscount but, anticipating the course which we should recommend, I suggest that we should not legislate about this. Once you legislate on a matter of this sort you create a mandatory duty, and there are changes in the lists, deletions and additions of all sorts, and the question arises as to how often ought publication to

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take place. I will gladly give an undertaking on behalf of the Ministry of Town and Country Planning that there will be publication from time to time as far as is reasonable and convenient, because we entirely agree with the noble Viscount that alike in the interest of informing the public of what is going on—and the public is interested in the preservation of these buildings—and for the sake of informing people more immediately concerned, it is right that there should be reasonable publication from time to time. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend will see fit to withdraw his Amendment.
VISCOUNT ESHER: In view of the assurance given by the noble and learned Viscount, I beg to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 34, after ("area") insert ("or so much of the amendments; as relate thereto, as the case may be").— (The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is also consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 39, after ("compiling") insert ("or amending").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF WARWICK THE EARL OF WARWICK moved to insert at the end of subsection (3) "and shall obtain the approval of the Minister of Works." The noble Earl said: This small Amendment needs very little comment. In the past under three Acts—the Ancient Monuments Consolidation Act, 1913, the Ancient Monuments Consolidation Act, 1931, and the Minister of Works and Planning Act, 1942, power with respect to buildings of architectural and historical interest was exercised by the Commissioner of Works and then, after the alteration, by the Minister of Works. I think that this Amendment would regularize his position. In effect, if an order is made under the existing Act I think that the work which has to be carried out, the laying of the bricks and mortar, the giving of architectural advice and so on, would always come under the
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Minister of Works. I feel that it would regularize his position if it was laid down that he ought to be consulted.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 43, at end insert ("and shall obtain the approval of the Minister of Works").—(The Earl of Warwick.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The position of the Government about this suggestion is much as it was in relation to the proposal of my noble friend Viscount Esher. There is what I think may be properly called a constitutional objection to putting in the Statute Book mandatory provisions that one Minister shall consult another. The theory of the Constitution, and indeed it is more than a theory, is that the Ministry is one, and although it is quite true in the past there have been such clauses inserted—I could find them in the Statute Book—the modern view and the correct view is that it is better not to make stipulations that one Ministry shall consult another before it does something. We are all responsible for what happens, and it may be assumed that proper consultation takes place. To satisfy my noble friend Lord Warwick I will give him the assurance that it is not intended by the Ministry of Town and Country Planning to compile and approve and publish a list without consultation with the Ministry of Works. I hope that he will not insist on putting it in the Bill because really it is thoroughly bad practice to insist that one Minister shall consult some other named Minister. Indeed it is not in accordance with a proper constitutional principle.
THE EARL OF WARWICK: I entirely agree with what the noble and learned Viscount has said. The only difficulty which seems apparent to me is that we are every day getting legislation more and more involved and difficult for the simple man to understand. I quite see that there is no constitutional principle for making it mandatory for one Minister to consult another, but I always believe in striving—and I feel that many noble Lords would agree—to make Parliamentary Bills as easy for the simple man to understand as possible, and it was on this ground that I made the suggestion contained in the Amendment. But, if there is strong precedent to oppose it, I beg to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
2.18 p.m.
THE EARL OF WARWICK THE EARL OF WARWICK moved to add to the clause:
"(4) The Minister shall before including any building in any list compiled or approved under the authority of this section cause notice in writing to be given to the owner and occupier of the building of the intention to include the building in the list."
The noble Earl said: I hope that the Government will not oppose this Amendment because, as far as I can see, very little delay will be occasioned to the Government Department concerned by giving notice. It seems fair and proper to me that before anybody should have his house or other property listed he should be given reasonable opportunity for stating grounds, if he has any, for objecting. It might be maintained that it does not hurt you very much to have your name put on a list because, although it may be put on a list, it may be some time before anybody takes action because it has been put on such a list. But it seems to me that once you are on a list you have no possible means of getting off it, and being on the list you can then have an order of some kind made against you. It seems to me only ordinary justice that if you are to have your name on a list you should have reasonable opportunity to object. As the Bill is framed at the moment there is no provision for the Minister having to notify you of his intention. You are just put on the list. Unless you happen to discover it in some other way beforehand, you have no opportunity to tell him that you would like to argue his decision.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 43, at end insert the said new subsection.—(The Earl of Warwick.)
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: I hope the Government will be prepared to accept this Amendment. It seems to me that it really is not right that a person who is in the position of owning a house which may be on the borderline between being one of historic and architectural interest and an ordinary dwelling-house, should not have an opportunity of knowing that the house is going to be placed on the special list which, presumably, is going to give the local authorities special powers to do all sorts of things, or to prevent all sorts of things being done. It is mere justice that he should have notice of it and be ready to object.
LORD CHESHAM: I support this Amendment, because the Minister of Works, under the Ancient Monuments Acts, also compiles lists, and under those Acts he has to give the owner notice. In this Bill there is a difference in the buildings concerned, in that as the Bill stands at present the buildings which may be concerned include dwelling-houses. I know that there is an Amendment on the Paper to make an exception in that case, but as the Bill stands at present it does include dwelling-houses. It is only reasonable that if, under the Ancient Monuments Acts, the Minister of Works has to give notice to owners, so under this Bill the Minister should give notice in compiling a list both to the owner and to the occupier. I support the Amendment, and I hope that the Government will accept it.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: I hope that the Government will accept this Amendment for yet another reason. If your building is put on the list under Clause 40 you automatically, if you alter it without permission, become liable to considerable penalties under subsection (4) of Clause 41. It seems to me, therefore, that it is only reasonable that proper steps should be taken to advise the owner that he is so liable.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I find this rather a difficult question to answer. I should like to make it plain at once that when we are dealing with a monument of architectural or historic interest I do not recognize that the owner is entitled to do what he likes with it. We have to preserve such a building as a national possession, and private ownership, however important it may be in all proper ways to protect it, does not extend to the right to object to a building being put on this list. The question is whether the Bill deals fairly with the individual interests. We all want to do that. There are cases where it may be a complicated business to give notice to the owner; the building may be half a ruin and the owner may be far to seek.
As a matter of fact, I am not quite persuaded what is fair here. The Committee will see that, quite apart from any Amendment which is put forward, before any house can be put on the list the Minister, under subsection (3), has to consult

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"with such persons or bodies of persons as appear to him appropriate as having special knowledge of or interest in buildings of architectural and historic interest."
I think we may assume that nobody wants to do anything unfair here, and that the Minister is not going lo put any building on the list until he has really ascertained that in the view of those who have the best right to speak with authority it is a building which ought to be listed. On the other hand, I speak frankly and say that I do see the pinch of the argument on the other side. We do not want to catch anybody at a disadvantage. If the idea was that the owner could, by objecting, in some way improve his position with reference to the list, I should not agree to it at all, because it has nothing to do with his private inclination; it is something of public and national interest which we are engaged in protecting here, and that consideration must come first. At the same time, I am frankly in a state of some doubt about this Amendment, and in any case I do not think the wording is quite suitable. If my noble friend would be good enough to withdraw the Amendment now, I would undertake to have it looked at most candidly between now and the Report stage, bearing in mind what several of your Lordships have said. I think that that would be the most satisfactory way of dealing with it.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: This is one of the rare occasions on which I find myself side by side with the landowners, and I should therefore like to seize this opportunity of supporting their plea. It is not only a question of insisting upon the public interest where a building of historic or architectural interest is concerned, but also a question of fact as to whether any particular building ought properly to come within this class or not. It is to me not unreasonable that an owner who thinks that it is, rather unfair that his building should come into this class, and thinks it unfair that certain restrictions should be put upon him on account of some very remote or subsidiary historical interest, should at all events have art opportunity of having his case heard, and should know what is in prospect. The movement (which is a very proper and highly desirable one) to preserve for all time, or for as long as human foresight can stretch, these buildings of historic and national importance, is one which must necessarily
934
impose certain restrictions and disabilities upon those who are the occupiers of and in residence in certain of these buildings, which frequently their families have occupied for generations, and sometimes even for centuries. It is desirable that this process of establishing public control over such buildings should be carried forward with the good will of those persons and families; and therefore, if they ask that they should receive specific notice when it is intended to put any particular building on the list, it seems to me the claim is a wholly reasonable one.
LORD LATHAM: I would not wish to do anything to disturb the temporary and limited partnership between the noble Viscount and the representatives of the landowning interests, but I should like to draw the attention of the noble and learned Lord Chancellor to what appears to be a gap in Clause 40—namely, that there is no provision in Clause 40 that the owner of a building which is put on the list shall be made aware of it.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: Precisely; that is the whole point.
LORD LATHAM: But that is not the point of this Amendment. This asks for notice of an intention, which is different from the point which I am making, which is that there is no provision in Clause 40 that after the Minister has put a building on the list the owner shall be so informed. The owner, therefore, does not know whether he ought to give the notice required under Clause 41 (3). I draw the attention of the Committee to that.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Perhaps the Committee will forgive me if I add a word about that. I have endeavoured to show my attitude towards it. The Committee must remember two things. The first is that the time when the owner may be affected is when an order is made. The fact that you put some building on the list produces no result whatever.
THE EARL OF WARWICK THE EARL OF WARWICK rose.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Is not that right?
THE EARL OF WARWICK: Once a building is put on the list. If you are not on the list because you have objected to being included in it no order can affect you, because it cannot be made.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I quite agree, but it must be borne in mind that what may prejudice any owner, as he thinks, is when an order is made. There is provision that before an order can be made objections have to be heard, and everything that the owner has to say to show that though his house looks like a Gothic fifteenth-century building it was in fact put up only three years ago by a speculative builder may then be said.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: I am sorry to interrupt the noble and learned Viscount, but in Clause 41 subsection (4) says "or if any person contravenes the provisions of the last preceding subsection" and the last preceding subsection begins:
"No person shall execute, or cause or permit to be executed, any work for the purpose of demolishing a building to which this subsection applies …"
If the owner does anything of that kind, he is liable to the claims and penalties in subsection (4). Is not that so?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am quite confident no order can be made at all except after considering the objections that are raised. I do not think that is conclusive but that is the point at which the thing becomes serious. The remaining point is this—and I take your Lordships completely in my confidence, there is no prejudice about it. Those who instruct us are very doubtful as to whether or not any administrative work would in particular cases fulfil what the noble Earl, Lord Warwick, is proposing. You have a number of cases of buildings which it may be are largely ruined and in regard to which it can be a tremendous business to find out who is the person to receive the notice. It is that kind of difficulty which induced the draftsman not to include what is now suggested. I have no objection in principle to conceding that it is a convenient course to take and if my noble friend would he good enough on my assurance to withdraw the Amendment I will look at it again and we will between now and Report see whether we cannot devise a clause which will meet his wishes. But I do not feel disposed, unless the Committee presses me, to accept it now. The Ministry do not know in how many cases they could administer this and I should like another chance of looking at it again.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: The point might be met by inserting appropriate words. An Englishman's home is his castle but a castle may also be his home and he ought to receive consideration.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: As long as he lets down the drawbridge.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: The difficulty could also be met in the way which perhaps the Lord Chancellor could accept quite easily—namely, to confine this proposed rule or direction to a case where the building is in occupation. It is quite true that it may be a ruined old house with only one room in it and there is no particular point in giving the notice, but if it has been occupied previously I think that notice should be given.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: You might be much more likely to demolish it if it were a ruin. But here you are to be subjected to claims and penalties if you do demolish it. I do not think what has been suggested meets the point.
THE EARL OF WARWICK: I am not at all satisfied, nor do I think many of your Lordships are, that we have really had a proper answer to this question. I always feel when answering the noble and learned Viscount like David without his sling, but I have had a charming assurance both from him and the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, that an Amendment of this nature will be included in the Bill and, subject to doing my worst against them if it is not included, I shall be glad to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 40, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
VISCOUNT MERSEY: Before this clause is agreed to I should be glad if the Lord Chancellor would indicate briefly exactly what is the position of what are called national buildings. I understand that Crown lands apart from the palaces are protected by Common Law. What I am thinking of more particularly are buildings like the Inns of Court, the British Museum, the National Gallery, buildings which need not necessarily be of any particular architectural value but which are important assets to the country. Would it be possible for a local authority to

937
pull down some portion of the National Gallery if it wished to do so or some part of the Tower of London? I have taken extreme cases but I think those who are not conversant with the full meaning of certain words would like to know exactly what is the position of that class of building and that class of land.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think I can answer my noble friend in two or three sentences. The Bill does not bind the Crown and Crown lands. You need special and exceptional provisions to do so. Crown property would not be governed by this though I am far from saying that, if a good case was made for applying a plan which did touch Crown property, any unreasonable objection would over be raised. I am quite sure it would not. But as a matter of law the Bill does not bind the Crown. Then the instances which my noble friend Lord Mersey has given are, as he says, extreme instances such as the Inns, of Court. No doubt that lard is not Crown land. I do not remember how it is about the British Museum. It is very likely held by trustees and is not Crown land. There the Bill would as a matter of principle apply. I do not think you could possibly draw a dividing line as to where it was to begin if you did not say that "Crown lands are not covered, other lands are within the scope of the Bill." I hope my noble friend has not so far got an impression of the Bill that any and every local authority in its zeal for planning will take any building of the kind he has referred to, and if it proposed to do so there is this machinery before that point is reached. I think my noble friend may be safe in assuming that, say, the National Gallery or the British Museum will not be necessarily pulled down to the ground, not even to impose a gradiose plan of the London County Council.
Clause 40, as amended, agreed to.
2.36 p.m.
Clause 41:
Preservation of buildings of special architectural or historic interest.
41.—(1) The power of a local authority under Section seventeen of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, to prohibit the demolition of any building of special architectural or historic interest shall include power to make an order directing that without the consent of the authority the building shall not, in any way prohibited by the order, be altered or extended.
(2) In accordance with the preceding subsection the power of a local authority to vary an order under the said Section seventeen shall include power as respects any order made under that section (whether before or after the commencement of this Act) by a subsequent order thereunder to vary the order by adding thereto such a direction as is mentioned in the preceding subsection; and subsection (3) of the said Section seventeen (which provides for an appeal to the Minister in certain cases) shall have effect as if the reference to the demolition of a building included a reference to the alteration and to the extension thereof.
(3) No person shall execute, or cause or permit to be executed, any work for the purpose of demolishing a building to which this subsection applies, that is to say, a building included in a list compiled or approved under the provisions of the last preceding section, not being a building. as respects which an order under the said Section seventeen is for the time being in force or a building falling within subsection (5) of that section (which relates to ancient monuments and certain other buildings), or for the purpose of altering or extending a building to which this subsection applies in any way which would seriously affect the character thereof, unless at least one month before the work is executed notice has been given to the local planning authority of the proposed demolition, alteration or extension:
Provided that nothing in this subsection shall render unlawful the execution of any such work as aforesaid which is urgently necessary in the interests of safety or otherwise to deal with an unforeseen emergency, so long as notice is given as aforesaid as soon as may be after the necessity for the work arises.
(6) A local authority having power to make an order under the said Section seventeen as respects any building—

(a) may, with the consent of the Minister, acquire by agreement the building and any land comprising or contiguous or adjacent to it which appears to the authority and the Minister to be required for maintaining it or the amenities thereof, or for affording access thereto, or for the proper control or management thereof;

(b) if an order under the said Section seventeen is in force as respects the building and it appears to the authority and the Minister that reasonable steps required for properly maintaining the building will not be taken unless the powers of this paragraph are exercised, may be authorized to purchase the building and any such land as aforesaid compulsorily, by means of an order made by the authority and submitted to the Minister and confirmed by him in accordance with the provisions of Part I of the Second Schedule to this Act.

(7) A local authority shall have power, as respects any land acquired by them under this section, to repair, maintain and insure any buildings or works on the land and generally to deal therewith in a proper course, of management, and may with the consent of the Minister dispose of any land so acquired in

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any manner which appears to the authority and the Minister expedient for, or consistent with, securing the object for which the land was acquired.
Subsections (9) to (11) of Section seventeen of this Act shall apply in relation to the disposal of land under this section as they apply in relation to the disposal of land under that section.
THE EARL OF WARWICK THE EARL OF WARWICK moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert "and the local authority shall not less than twenty-eight days before making an order under Section seventeen of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, as amended by this section give notice in writing to the owner and occupier of the building of their intention so to do". The noble Earl said: This is another of those small Amendments seeking consideration for the individual which sometimes we are not able to obtain owing to the overriding demands of the Ministry. Under section 17 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, and this clause which is before us now there is no provision for notice to be given to the owner or occupier of the buliding. It is quite true that the Minister is required before approving an order to consider any representations made to him but I think it would be more satisfactory to the owner without undue inconvenience to the Ministry if this Amendment were adopted. I think it would be more convenient if the owner were given some warning. I remember a little while ago in another place a certain Minister saying that man must come before buildings. There is perhaps in the last Amendment which I moved some question of the building coming before the man. I hope your Lordships will consider this Amendment favourably.
Amendment moved—
Page 49, line 6, at end insert the said words. —(The Earl of Warwick.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My noble friend uses such well-chosen language that he reveals the undercurrent of his thought. I do not think he expected me actually to accept his Amendment but I will briefly explain why I think it would be a mistake to do so. Under the law as it now stands and under regulations now in force the local authority has to give notice of the submission it is making to the Minister for his approval of a preservation order under Clause 17 and it must serve a copy of the proposed order on the owner and
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occupier of the building and give fourteen days' notice in which objections may be laid or representations made. There at any rate you do get the owner or occupier brought in.
THE EARL OF WARWICK: Is not that only in the case of demolition, not of extension or alteration?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It is modified in the Bill and here I think I am right, but I will gladly be corrected if I have not quite understood it. I think that is the position as it stands at present.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: I think my noble and learned friend is wrong and Lord Warwick is right. The power of the local authority under Clause 17 may be in regard to demolition. Subsection (1) of Clause 41 says that that power to prohibit demolition shall include power to make an order directing that the building shall not be altered or extended. That does not necessarily provide that the same notice must be given in the case of alteration or extension. It is very desirable that it should be clear.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I quite agree. I find it a little difficult to state the argument if those doubts are so pronounced that they must be stated at this moment. I will inquire into that. My impression is that I am right, and that the draftsman has not been so clumsy as to forget that in Clause 41 he is extending the cases in which an order may be made. But may that be assumed for the moment? The real point here is: What would be the effect of my noble friend's Amendment? It would be to require the authority to give notice to owners and occupiers not after the order has been submitted, but twenty-eight days before it has been submitted. That would be the effect of it. What are the risks? I have no doubt that many owners, if they were given that warning, would simply wait and see what the order which the Minister made was; but you might have an owner who would say, "I have twenty-eight days; there is no time to waste, so I will pull down this building quickly"—and that is a position which we do not desire to make even possible.
Subject to the point taken by my noble and learned friend Lord Maugham, which I will look into—but it is my strong impression that the clause was adjusted to the provisions of the earlier Act—that is

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the objection. Provision is made in the law as it stands for giving notice. No owner or occupier ought to be put in jeopardy without having notice that the order is being applied for. There does not seem any good reason why he should be given twenty-eight days before any order is applied for. That is the full extent of the difference as I have understood it in this particular Bill, but I speak subject to correction by those who have looked through it. I will make inquiries as to the other point. I hope my noble friend will be good enough to accept that explanation because we cannot have the Bill in a form in which the owner or occupier of a building which may be of some historic or architectural value is given the opportunity, if he is so minded, to pull to pieces what remains of the building or the ruins before ever the Minister has had a chance of having an application made.
THE EARL OF WARWICK: I am not going to press this, but I do think that here we reach a point of fundamental principle. The noble and learned Viscount's answer to me was that there was some danger of some horrible owner destroying a building because he had received a notice. You cannot legislate always to cover all criminal actions. I do not think, either, that you can have happy legislation in this country unless the administration is able to pursue the ordinary lines of common courtesy which we all use between each other. I agree that there may be some technical hitch by which a man on receiving notice could tear his house down very quickly. I have no doubt the noble and learned Viscount could quickly amend that so that it was impossible. But my intention is surely a very honest and simple one. It is, if nothing else, simple courtesy if somebody is going to enter your property and tell you what you may or may not do with it, that you should have some reasonable time in which to know about it.
The noble and learned Viscount carried it a bit further, and I think he was very arbitrary—highly arbitrary—by saying that this was a matter of national interest and, therefore, the order had to come in and it was nothing to do with the owner. These are largely questions of artistic appreciation, about which many of us have very different views, and I am not at all certain that the people whom the Minister
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may consult before making that order would be always the right and proper people. I am certain that there is a sufficient question of doubt on that matter for it to be fair for the owner to be able to receive notice so that, if he does not agree or if other authorities on objects of art and beauty do not agree, he can prepare a case which they take to the Minister and say: "We have a lot of expert advice, too. We have the Chairman of the Birmingham Museum and the President of the Fine Arts Society. You have simply consulted the National Portrait Gallery." I use terms just figuratively, because the noble and learned Viscount presented it to me rather quickly. I think there is a sufficient doubt on all questions of an artistic nature for an owner to be allowed fair time to oppose an order if he wants to do so—not to have an order delivered to him by the Minister who must be, whatever his other abilities, arbiter eleganliarum.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If I may be excused for interrupting my noble friend, I know he is the last to wish by accident to misrepresent the position. He says it surely is only fair that the owner should be given notice of what is contemplated to be done before he is presented with the order. I do not think my noble friend can have appreciated that under the existing law, before any order can be made and when the authority applies to the Minister in respect of a building which is on the list, there has to be notice of the submission which is being made to the Minister for his approval. It is not in this Bill because it is in the existing law. That is so. It happens at this minute, and it has to be notice which is at least fourteen days before any order is made in order that the individual, if he likes, may object. If he objects—he can object within fourteen days—and says "I do not take this view at all; I have much better advice than you. My building is not, as a matter of fact, a building of this character; you are wrongly advised," he has every opportunity of arguing it out with the Ministry. That is all the existing law. The only thing for which my noble friend is asking is that he should get this notice for twenty-eight days before any application even is made to the Minister. That is a thing which I must dig my toes in about because it manifestly gives the opportunity of, not the sort of owner we are talking about

943
but a particular kind of person saying: "I have the opportunity now of fetching in a contractor and selling the stuff as rubble before anybody can stop me;" and surely common sense requires, and every honest and decent proprietor will agree, that that ought not to be allowed. That is the only reason why I object to this proposal.
LORD HEMINGFORD: Does not the existing law give the owner the opportunity of fourteen days in which to pull down?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes, it certainly does. I do not see how that can be avoided if you are going to give the owner notice, but I do not see any reason why you should extend the period three times.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: There are two separate questions here which make it a little confusing. Section 17 of the Act of 1932 enables the local authority under certain conditions to prohibit the demolition of any building of special architectural or historic interest. Another question, which is so different a question that one almost wonders why it is put in the same subsection—except as a matter of drafting, and from that point of view it was reasonable to put it there—is the question whether there shall be power to make an order directing that without the consent of the authority the building shall not be in any way prohibited by the order from being altered or extended. That may mean some quite trivial alteration, but for all time after that order the owner of the house would have a house which he cannot touch in any substantial manner unless he goes first to the authority. If that order cannot be made without full notice to the owner, personally I am content. I think it is arguable, and the noble and learned Viscount has already told us that he is in doubt, whether it is so or not. I also am in doubt whether it is so or not, but if the noble and learned Viscount is willing to consider it, as he says he is, and to satisfy himself that the order (which, as I say, sterilizes the powers of the owner of the property altogether) shall not be made without full notice to him, I am content, and I shall be quite willing that the matter should be disposed of on Report.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: That shall be done.
THE EARL OF WARWICK: I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
2.52 p.m.
THE EARL OF RADNOR THE EARL OF RADNOR moved to insert in subsection (2):
"Provided that the Minister, in giving his decision upon any appeal under the said subsection by the owner of a building against a refusal by the local authority to vary or revoke an order directing that the building shall not, in any way prohibited by the order, be altered or extended or to grant their consent to the alteration or extension thereof shall, if his decision is adverse to the appellant, furnish to him a statement of his reasons for such decision."
The noble Earl said: I am afraid I do not like Clause 41 at all, for a number of reasons which I will not develop now. I will develop them later on another Amendment. This proviso comes at the end of subsection (2). Subsection (2) deals with the question of the orders, and by inference, and by reference to Section 17 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, with an appeal to the Minister. My proviso only asks that in the event of the Minister giving an answer contrary to the wish of the appellant, he should explain in writing to the appellant why he has refused his appeal. As the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, said just now, in this clause we are dealing with the Englishman's castle, which is his home, and the clause has extended certain provisions of the Act of 1932 so as to cover alterations and additions to that home. It does not specify large or small ones. It means to say that any alteration that a man has to make to his house—it may be for his convenience, it may be for the economical working of his house, it may be to enable him to live in his house—has to go before the local authority and, on appeal, to the Minister, who may turn it down and there is no provision for the Minister to let him know why he has turned that appeal down. I think it only fair and right as between a Government and a member of the public that the Minister should in this case be prepared to let him know why he has refused his appeal.
Amendment moved—
Page 49, line 16, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Earl of Radnor.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My noble fiend, as he has indicated, has later on the Paper a further proposal that the whole of Clause 41 should be omitted. The greater necessarily includes the less, but I would like to make an effort—and I think it will shorten proceedings on this clause—an effort which really also covers the difficulty expressed by my noble and learned friend Lord Maugham just now, to indicate the sort of change which I think ought to be made in this clause. As it stands the clause is open to the objection which Lord Radnor has indicated, that an unreasonable or foolish authority might raise objection to internal changes in a building of this character which were purely a matter of internal structure—putting in an extra bathroom, substituting a lift for stairs, or what you please. I confess that might be, if it was unreasonably worked, most oppressive as well as futile. What you want is to preserve those characteristics of the building which really make it valuable in a national or public sense, so that inside the Englishman's castle he may make arrangements which are suitable, without having at any moment to go and ask the local authority whether it approves.
The sort of change I want to make in this clause—it may come a little earlier than the point we have passed—I believe would meet my noble friend, and I think it would meet my noble and learned friend Lord Maugham and a number of people, with whose feelings I sympathize. I would like to put it in on the Report stage. It would come after the first subsection, the subsection which provides that the local authority may make an order, and that includes an order that the building shall not in any way be altered or extended. I quite see the difficulty of those wide words because they might be used quite unreasonably. I want to put at the end of subsection (1) this:
"Provided that such a direction shall not be given by the authority or approved by the Minister unless the authority or the Minister as the case may be are/is satisfied that the alteration or extension of the building in the way prohibited would seriously affect the character of the building."
That is what we are really after, and we are not interested in anything else, and I think it would meet the spirit of my noble friend's Amendment. It was really Lord Maugham who called my attention to this first of all. I believe that is a much better way than tinkering with the
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various subsections here. The result would be that the whole subject matter of the clause would be limited to orders or directions so far as alterations or extensions of the building in the way prohibited would seriously affect the character of the building.
I have asked myself whether there is any means of deciding in a borderline case, and it is very difficult to see how that can be finally decided, because it is all-important that the decision should be made before the work is done. It is not very satisfactory to have the work done and then have the prosecution. But I think one might reasonably assume that the Minister and his advisers would act on the lines I have indicated, and I am perfectly prepared to put that in. I venture to think that is what Lord Radnor and others want, and may I say that it meets his desire better than by a series of small Amendments?
THE EARL OF RADNOR: I am very grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for what he has said, and I think it does meet the point of the Amendment I have put down in an endeavour to improve the clause, in the event of your Lordships not agreeing to delete it from the Bill. It does not cover my main argument, however, which I will develop when I move later on, but I will withdraw the Amendment.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: May I ask a question in reference to the suggestion which has been made by the noble and learned Viscount? I am not quite sure whether its effect would be that there would be some machinery for determining whether the proposed alteration or extension of the building is likely or calculated to interfere with the character of the building. And who is going to determine that? Because that is the point which we want to know. We do not want to leave it open, we want it determined in some way without being left to the local authority. I am not quite sure whether what my noble and learned friend has suggested covers that question or not. If there is machinery for determining that vital question then I should he myself disposed, without pledging my friends in any way, to assent.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This draft will have to be brought in on Report so there is time to get the advantage of

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any suggestions. I have puzzled my head over the question put to me and I should be very grateful for any suggestions. My noble and learned friend Viscount Maugham suggested an Amendment which would limit the restriction to cases where the building is occupied. His point was that it is only if such a building is occupied that you need have regard to this, but I do not think myself that it is right or necessary to limit it in that way. If you have an alteration internally which does not affect the character of the building, who cares? The less we interfere in these things the better. I shall put something down on Report and I hope that that will have the effect of shortening this discussion.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: I rise only to protect myself from the view that the Amendments I have put down are the maximum Amendments I should like. They are the maximum I think I may possibly be able to get. and I should heartily welcome any improvement to my Amendment which the noble and learned Viscount can suggest.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.2 p.m.
LORD AMMON LORD AMMON moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "one month" and insert "three months." The noble Lord said: This clause deals with the preservation of buildings of special architectural and historic interest, and as has been already pointed out the preceding clause deals with the compilation of lists of such buildings. The subsection with which we are now dealing stipulates that the owner of a listed building must give a month's notice to the planning authority of his intention either to alter, extend or demolish the building. I think one month's notice of the owner's intention to alter, extend or demolish a building is not adequate for the planning authority, and subsequently the Minister, to be given, having regard to the work that will have to be undertaken. The question whether or not the building is of such a character as to make preservation a desirable thing, the question whether there will be interference with proposed replanning in the neighbourhood, and the question of what compensation if any should be paid because of prohibition to demolish would be points which might have to go
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before one or more committees. Therefore to allow only one month does not seem adequate. If the extension which I propose is accepted I think it might help the noble and learned Viscount in other matters.
Amendment moved—
Page 49, line 27, leave out ("one month") and insert ("three months.")—(Lord Ammon.)
THE EARL OF RADNOR: I feel that this Amendment is a most remarkable example of inconsistency, or if you like of favouring the local authority as against the unfortunate individual. Yesterday on Clause 1 the noble Lord who moved this Amendment moved to cut down the notice which a local authority has to give to the public from two months to one month, but now he suggests that the notice the public have got to give to the local authority should be three months instead of one month.
LORD AMMON: May I be permitted to point out that it is much easier to find the person concerned in this case than in the other?
LORD LATHAM: This Amendment is not put forward to make matters consistent but to make it administratively possible to do what is intended by the subsection. I would point out that if the later Amendment standing in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, is carried, and only one month's notice is to be given, the local authority will not be able to comply with the provisions in the Bill. If Lord Woolton's Amendment is adopted the local authority must send a copy
"to the Minister and except where the authority is the council of a county borough, to the council of the county in which the area of the authority is situated, and in either case to such other persons or bodies of persons as may be specified by the Minister either generally or as respects the building in question."
If it is desired that this machinery of notice should operate effectively it is no good limiting the period to a month. I cannot see that the extension to three months would in any way prejudice the owner. It will merely enable the local authority to examine the position satisfactorily and give the notice which will be required if the Amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, is adopted. The Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, contemplates two months' notice in this kind of case.

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I would like to say that Clauses 40 and 41 were not inserted in the Bill at the instance of avaricious local authorities who went to take half the National Gallery, plus the whole of the British Museum, and then if they are not satisfied have a go at the Inns of Court. They were inserted in the Bill in another place at the instance of persons and associations concerned with preserving buildings of architectural and historic importance. The London County Council were asked whether they would support these provisions. We indicated that we thought they were not unreasonable and that as far as we were concerned we had always tried to conform with them. These clauses do not give any additional power to a local authority to do anything except to restrain a private owner from doing something to the detriment of the preservation of buildings of historic or architectural value. I ask your Lordships to agree to extend the period, not as any penalty upon the owner, nor as any advantage to the local authority, but to give the local authority sufficient time properly to discharge the additional obligation which this subsection would impose upon them.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Can we across the table make a bargain? I am prepared to agree to two months. That was the precedent cited by Lord Latham.
LORD AMMON: In the true British spirit of compromise—
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will write 5o per cent. if the noble Lord will sit down quickly.
LORD AMMON: Then I will move my Amendment in that form.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment moved—
Page 49, line 27, leave out ("one month") and insert ("two months").—(Lord Ammon.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is simply to provide that notice must be given in writing. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 49, line 27, after ("notice") insert ("in writing").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT ESHER VISCOUNT ESHER moved, in subsection (3), after "notice," to insert "in
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writing in such form as may be prescribed by the Minister." The noble Viscount said: I do not wish to press this Amendment but I would like to know from the noble and learned Viscount whether he considers the wording of this subsection is clear and precise enough so that it will not be left to the court to decide what is or is not sufficient notice within the meaning of the subsection.
Amendment moved—
Page 49, line 27, after ("notice") insert ("in writing in such form as may be prescribed by the Minister").—(Viscount Esher.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will look at it if I may. I think it is all right, but I will have the matter looked into and if it seems that an Amendment is required I will put it down on Report.
VISCOUNT ESHER: In view of that assurance I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF RADNOR THE EARL OF RADNOR had given Notice of an Amendment to insert in subsection (3):
"Provided that if within one month after the giving to the local planning authority of a notice under this subsection of the proposed alteration or extension of a building the authority make no order containing such a direction as is mentioned in subsection (1) of this section they shall be deemed to have decided not to make such an order and nothing in this section shall prevent the person by whom the notice was given from proceeding with the work to which the notice related."
The noble Earl said: In view of the statement made by the noble and learned Viscount that he proposes to insert on Report words to confine orders under this clause to major operations rather than minor operations inside a house I think there is no particular point in moving this Amendment now.
3.10 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to insert after subsection (3):
"(4) Where a local planning authority receive a notice under the last preceding subsection they shall as soon as may be send a copy of the notice to the Minister and, except where the authority is the council of a county borough, to the council of the county in which the area of the authority is situated, and in either case to such other persons or bodies of persons as may be specified by the Minister either generally or as respects the building in question."
The noble and learned Viscount said: This is a proposal to add same words

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after subsection (3). Would the Committee allow me just to say that I am not myself convinced that the language of the proviso from lines 3o to 34 is quite correct? I do not ask for any discussion about it now, but I wish to indicate it. I doubt very much whether those words "to deal with an unforeseen emergency" can be very easily construed. We are dealing with buildings, the preservation of which is desired in the national interest and the fact of the emergency being foreseen by the owner—he may be quite sure that in another six months the place will fall down—would not seem to me sufficient reason why he should not be assisted about emergency repairs. I am going to look at it with a view to recasting it when we come to Report. We need not discuss it now.
Amendment moved—
Page 49, line 34, at end, insert the said new subsection.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: Would the noble and learned Viscount allow me to say that the words are necessary on the Bill as they stand, are they not? An order might have been made by the authority that the building shall not be altered in any way. Or again there might be an order, under Section 17, prohibiting demolition. Or yet again there might be a storm and the owner might afterwards be told "If you do not pull down the house it is going to fall into the street and may fall upon some people, and you would consequently be liable." That is the sort of emergency that might arise.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am obliged for the warning of my noble and learned friend, but we will not discuss this point now. My doubt is as to whether the word "unforeseen" is wide enough. It might be that there would be an owner who would say: "Let the place fall down," but even if that were his attitude it might still be necessary to help him about emergency repairs. The object, as set out, is to secure that:
"Where a local planning authority receives a notice under the last preceding section they shall, as soon as may be, send a copy of a notice to the Minister and, except where the authority is the council of a county borough, to the council of the county in which the area of the authority is situated, and in either case to such other persons or bodies of per-
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sons as may he specified by the Minister either generally or as respects the building in question."
May I suggest that under the definition of bodies of persons who may be specified the National Trust would come as a very good example? The Amendment has been designed to meet a point of criticism which I think was just.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 49, line 39, leave out ("last preceding subsection") and insert ("subsection (3) of this section").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF RADNOR THE EARL OF RADNOR moved to omit paragraph (b) in subsection (6). The noble Earl said: This subsection provides that, if an owner does not keep his building in repair, the local authority can purchase it compulsorily, and I think I am right in saying that there is no limit of time in years to this. Therefore they can purchase compulsorily for all time at the March 31, 1939, price. I think that is a correct interpretation. My noble and learned friend Viscount Maugham raises a very technical point on which he has an Amendment later on which in part meets my objection, but what this paragraph, in effect, means is that if an owner who is unable to keep this house—a house which has been scheduled—in the kind of repair which the local authority thinks necessary, they can dispossess him. Well, that may or may not be a good thing. Possibly it may be a good thing for the owner. But I submit that it is not quite reasonable. Equally, I do not know that it is such a good thing for the local authority. It may be a big house, and when they dispossess the owner they cannot compel him to go on living there. They cannot compel him to be their tenant. Are they going to get another?
I think that my noble friend Viscount Esher may be able to tell us something of the difficulties connected with large country houses taken over by public authorities. They are apt to be a burden on the local authority. Therefore, there are two points here. First the paragraph gives power to dispossess a man of his own home for no real fault of his own and to dispossess him at an arbitrary price. Fur-

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ther it may well be that the place will become a burden on the local authority which I do not think they ought necessarily to have to bear. I would also suggest that if anybody is turned out under this, or is dispossessed and leaves the house, there may well be a large and empty building on the hands of the local authority for ever and ever—a building for which they have no use. I beg to move.
Amendment moved:
Page 50, leave out lines 14 to 23.—(The Earl of Padnor.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Your Lordships will, of course, observe that this provision which my noble friend wishes to omit is not a compulsory provision. It is not a provision saying that the local authority must buy any white elephant in the country which will not otherwise be kept up. Not at all. It is merely a facultative provision and the simple question is this: The building in question having been decided to be a building of historic and architectural importance, is it to be left to its fate and allowed to fall down merely because the building cannot be preserved by private effort? There are cases in which some of your Lordships would prefer that private effort should prevail over public effort. But, at any rate, if private effort fails I should have thought the provision that public effort might be employed would be generally accepted. The simple point here is that in the last resort there may be no other means by which the preservation of the building can be secured. I fully appreciate that the local authority would think twice before it took over some of these buildings, but it is not required to do sc unless it wishes. If it is in the public interest that a building of historic and national importance should not be allowed to fall into ruin and the Minister is satisfied that private efforts cannot possibly maintain it, then I think your Lordships will agree that it is right there should be power in the local authority to acquire it.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: In reply to the noble and learned Viscount, it is quite true that this is only a permissive provision, although in years gone by I have very often been told when I wanted a clause altered to be mandatory that "may" means "must."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It does not here.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: It has been said to me quite often in your Lordships' House. I do not think it does mean "must" here. But equally his argument, so far as the local authority is concerned, is almost self-destructive, in that if the local authority is not going to operate this, what is the use of having this subsection? If the local authority is going to operate it, it may well find itself landed with a burden. In view of the fact that I have a later Amendment of greater importance, I shall not pursue the question further, but I do think that this is a provision which is very hard upon the owner of houses. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.21 p.m.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM VISCOUNT MAUGHAM moved to insert after subsection (6):
"Provided that in the case of a building which is the subject of a settlement within the meaning of the Settled Land Act, 1925, if it appears to the authority that reasonable steps are required for properly maintaining the building the expenses rendered necessary by taking such steps shall he included in the improvements in Part 1 of the Third Schedule to the Settled Land Act, 1925, and accordingly may be carried out by the tenant for life without any scheme for the execution of the improvement being first submitted to the trustees of the settlement or the court out of capital moneys arising under the Act."
The noble and learned Viscount said: The object of the Amendment which stands in my name and in that of the Earl of Warwick is to deal with the position which I am afraid is generally occupied now throughout the country by tenants for life, and it refers simply to cases where buildings which are the subject of the present provisions happen to be included in a settlement, which I have defined in legal language. It seems to me that the position is generally this, that the owner of a house who owns the freehold will keep up the house so long as he can, and he will provide the money out of his own means for the purpose of doing so; and, as we know, many of these magnificent houses have been maintained for hundreds of years by their owners at the cost of very great deprivation with regard to the ordinary amenities of life, they regarding the upkeep of the house as a sort of sacred trust.
What, however, is the position of a tenant for life? Before the war, and perhaps going back earlier than that, the

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tenants for life of these houses had as a rule substantial means, and they were able to keep up the historic mansion, a typical example of which we are being asked to consider. Since the war, however, and since the enormous increase in taxation, tenants for life all over the country, if they are the tenants for life of substantial properties with a great mansion house such as we are considering, are absolutely without any income at all after they have paid Income Tax and Surtax and rates and the necessary charges for insurance. They have nothing left, and if the local authority should come to them and say, "You must keep up this building or we will take it from you by compulsory purchase," their case is very hard indeed, because often they have little enough out of their own means for looking after and educating their children and providing for the upkeep of the house and the ordinary expenses of living, probably in the very house with which I am concerned.
What I am submitting to the Committee is this. If you are going to insert, with regard to properties of this kind which happen to be in settlement, a provision to enable the local authority compulsorily to acquire the building because they find upon inquiry that the building will not be repaired (which will mean the expenditure of some thousands of pounds unless the powers of paragraph (b) of subsection (6) are exercised) it seems to me that something ought to be done; and what should be done is that for the benefit of the tenant for life and of the remaindermen, who are probably his children, it should be open to the tenant for life to effect the necessary repairs at the expense of capital. I cannot argue this at full length, because the sections which would have to be referred to in the Settled Land Act of 1925 and the Schedules are so long that it would be impossible to go into them here, at any rate in present circumstances; but I would assure the Committee that there are many things authorized at the expense of capital under the provisions of the Settled Land Act which are by no means so essential to be done in the interests of a family as the carrying out of an order which the local authority thinks is necessary, and in default of which the property is going to be compulsorily
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acquired. It is for that reason that I have put down this Amendment. Unless any noble Lord would like me to explain it further, I do not think that I need add anything. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 23, at end insert the said proviso.—(Viscount Maugham.)
3.25 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am impressed by the argument of my noble and learned friend, and I think that others of your Lordships are also impressed by it. My own view is that something of this sort ought to be included in the Bill; but my noble and learned friend, who is very precise in these matters and knows them exceptionally well, will, I think, show sympathy to weaker brethren. I should like to be sure that the form of the proviso satisfies those who are advising me and others whom I shall consult. If I may ask for time, I will consult my noble and learned friend before putting down the final wording, and I hope that this may be remitted to the Report stage.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: I am quite content, and ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM VISCOUNT MAUGHAM had given Notice that he would move to add to the clause:
"(8) This section shall not apply to any building which is occupied as a dwelling-house by any person (other than a person employed as the caretaker thereof) or his family. Provided always that if any alteration or extension is proposed to be carried out to any such building which will seriously affect the character of the building the same shall not be carried into effect without the consent of authority.
(9) If any question shall arise under this section as to whether a proposed alteration of extension to a building is such as seriously to affect the character thereof such question shall be submitted to and decided by the Minister."
The noble and learned Viscount said: I am not quite sure how far I shall need this Amendment if the suggestion made by my noble and learned friend with regard to some words to be added to subsection (1) of Clause 41 is carried out.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I do not think you will need it.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: I do not think that I shall, because my Amendment was intended to prevent the clause from applying to dwelling-houses unless the altera-

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tion or extension would seriously affect the character of the building, in which case I do not think that I ought to object to the proposal in the Bill. I am, as are my friends, very anxious that the question of whether a building will have its character seriously affected is one which will be settled either by the Minister or, it may be, by .some other body, if the Government can propose some other body to do it, and shall not be decided by the local authority. Subject to that, I do not propose to move the Amendment.
3.28 p.m.
THE EARL OF RADNOR THE EARL OF RADNOR moved to leave out Clause 41. The noble Earl said: I wish to move the deletion of this clause from the Bill. It will not affect the Bill as such to any major extent; in fact, I am not certain that the clause really has any place in this Bill. There is a matter of considerable importance and principle involved in this clause, which extends the power of the local authority over what a man may do in his house or with his house. In some of the earlier discussions on it, the noble and learned Viscount who is replying for the Government seemed rather to emphasize the question of pulling down a building and the question of ancient monuments, but in fact this must affect a large number of houses which are at present being occupied by human beings, and not only large houses but often sir all houses as well.
There is here a question of sentiment. On the one side there are those who wish to preserve these buildings in the condition they are in to-day and on the other side those who are living in them and wish to continue doing so and to fulfil their part in the life of the countryside. It is true that the Lord Chancellor has met objections that might be raised on the question of minor alterations, or rather he proposes to do so, but even so many of the buildings which will be concerned, probably the larger number of them, are houses built in a more spacious age, very large houses—houses which are, and have been in many cases for a number of years, the centre of a community. It may well be that -the owners of these houses in the years alter the war will have demands for major alterations that will take the form of gulling down a large part of these houses, involving very definite alterations in the character of the houses, and it may be that only by pulling clown parts can they continue to live in their homes. Is
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it not better that that house should be preserved in its entirety as it is with the family who have lived there for a very long time, rather than the family having to go away because they cannot continue to afford to live there, thus, if I may so put it, removing the "eye" from the community, removing the good influence in the countryside? Is it right that bricks and mortar should be given precedence over the community life of this country?
There is one other argument which I would use and about which I feel very strongly. I know that a great many people feel strongly that these buildings should be maintained as they are and should not be altered. These people have a sentimental liking for old buildings. But the character of a great many of these buildings lies in the fact that in the past generations the owners have altered them very considerably. There are, it is true, a certain number of perfect examples of architecture which have been unaltered, but a great many of the most lovely houses in this country to-day have been altered very considerably. The great, joy of them is that they are homes; they are not merely examples of good architectural construction. The clause if it is persisted in means to a very large extent sterilization. It will stop progress in the direction of those houses. I do beg your Lordships to consider that very carefully before you allow the clause to remain in the Bill, and to bear in mind the human side that will lie behind refusals to make alterations which may be necessary to enable families that have lived in these houses to continue to live in them.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 41.—(The Earl of Radnor.)
3.33 p.m.
THE EARL OF WARWICK: For a variety of reasons I would like to support the noble Earl who has just spoken. I think the noble and learned Viscount who answered the Amendment put down by Lord Maugham and myself was most generous to us and, subject to certain qualifications, I shall be much less worried than I was. Much of this, as the noble Earl, Lord Radnor, says, seems to hinge on sterilization of future art. We have no judge mentioned. Is it to be the Minister? Is it to relate to the few houses in England of great historic interest that have been built in one age? Most houses have been altered in sub-

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sequent periods—a bit built by a great grandfather in Edward the Third's reign, someone else making an addition later, interior decorations done in the Stuart period, other alterations made in the Georgian age, and a collection of pictures made in Victorian days, and so on and so forth? That is the true history of all the old English country houses and it cannot be got away from.
It may be the opinion of a great many of us that there is no great movement of art at present and that we must keep the status quo, but that is not to say that in the years to come after this war there may not be a period of British art that will equal anything there has been in our history. It has been traditional always of the charm and character of English country villages and houses, and even of London, that the Englishman's home has been an adaptation to beauty. Not only do we have to put the future of this artistic development before a committee, but we do not even know who the committee is to be. We have got no further than the Minister and the local authority. With the greatest respect in the world to the noble and learned Viscount who answers for the Government I have a suspicion not only of the artistic power of judgment of the local authorities but also of the Minister. How can we be assured that the correct decision will be taken? The whole thing is de gustibus. It is a most difficult and complicated matter.
I would like to support the noble Earl also on a purely moral ground. It is perfectly true that we would like to see these ancient buildings preserved but at the same time we must remember that the pioneer in the wool industry in the Cotswolds built some of the early lovely manors there not because he intended the general public to enjoy them. He built them for the benefit of his children; he built them to live in himself, and after him his children. I admit the right of the nation but surely it is only a secondary right. I maintain that so long as the primary right, the right of the builder and of his heirs exists, the right of the nation must be a very secondary one. I do not know whether the noble Lord would be prepared to agree to an Amendment of that nature. Where you have a long series of stepping stones of artistic development, of artistic documentation of our country's progress, it is a
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terrifying thing to contemplate removing people.
I think this Bill is calculated to protect those buildings which are not properly looked after; but there are an enormous number of houses which are properly looked after. How much is it going to encourage a man who lives in his house and has always been devoted to it? He is not very keen on forms and is not very tolerant, say, of ill-advised criticisms. How is it going to affect his whole attitude to the charge which he has inherited? I do not think it is going to affect him favourably. He will say: "I have kept up this building, I have not done it any harm, and here is a Bill brought in that orders a lot of things to be done. What is it all about?" I think this will seriously prejudice the sense of responsibility which has existed for hundreds of years. I maintain that the majority of the houses are occupied and it is only a minority that are not properly looked after.
Passing on to one other little aspect of this matter, how does this affect the people who own these properties? I recollect that in the earlier discussion of this Bill my noble friend Lord Maugham, addressing the noble and learned Viscount who has been answering for the Government this afternoon, said that they both of them well knew the difference between freehold and leasehold property. An unrestricted freehold has a value which exceeds a leasehold. We all know that. To what extent do restrictions on freehold as imposed under this clause affect the freehold value of property? Might it not be very arguable for somebody who has purchased my house which, we will say, comes under Clause 40 of this Bill, to say: "I do not think I could pay you the full freehold price because, after all, it is a very restricted freehold. I may be called upon at any time to do this, that, or the other. I am not altogether sure that I ought not to have a little bit off for accepting this liability." I do not think that is a big point, but it is a point which, as compensation does enter into this Bill so much, might be investigated before the Third Reading.
The noble and learned Viscount who suggested an Amendment to take the place of the one Lord Radnor had made, and which the noble Lord, Lord Maugham, and I suggested, I think made

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a very good one, but he spoke rather as ii the oily alteration to a house which could damage the house was an external one. Of course, a great many of the things which we would wish to preserve if this does go through, or in any case, are inside. There are frescoes, mantelpieces, staircases, and all sort of things, and I do not think it is so simple as the noble and learned Viscount envisaged. Perhaps he will be good enough to remember that when the actual phrasing goes through. I am sorry I have been rather long, but I feel strongly on this and it does impinge on an Amendment which we have already dealt with.
3.42 p.m.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: Before a final decision is taken upon this clause 1, for my part, would like to know whether subsection (3) of Clause 40 applies to the alteration or extension of buildings of special architectural or historic interest. There is a provision there that
"the Minister shall consult with such persons or bodies of persons as appear to him appropriate as having special knowledge of or interest is buildings of architectural and historic interest"
with a view of putting them upon a register. If I may say so, it would appear to me of particular importance if it is sought by a local planning authority to extend of alter such buildings, that there should be some really competent body to whom reference can be made as to whether in the public interest such extension or alteration is desirable. I should have thought that there is no one more competent as a knowledgeable curator of a building of historic or architectural interest than the actual owner with all the traditions that are handed down by his forebears and all the natural instinct he has to preserve unimpaired such a building. I happen to be president in my own county of a branch of what is known as The C.P.R.E. (The Council for the Preservation of Rural England) and that county happens to possess quite a considerable number of old country houses and other buildings of historic and architectural interest.
Unless the best of all curators, the owner, is going to find it possible in days to come to live on the premises, how are those buildings, at any rate without some competent authority advising the Minister, going to be preserved in the best interests
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of the public—at any rate of those who have any aesthetic taste? May I say in passing that there are no people in the British Empire more concerned about the disappearance of these ancient buildings of historic and architectural interest, than those living overseas in our own Dominions and I, for my part, would venture to express the hope that some authoritative body should be available to the Minister when an appeal is made to him to guide him as to whether it is or it is not desirable to allow those buildings to be altered or extended.
I would make reference to one instance. I do not know exactly how Berkeley Castle stands in this connexion, but opposite to me across the estuary of the Severn stands one of the most historic, one of the most interesting and architecturally beautiful buildings in the whole of England, where Edward II was done to death. Only a fortnight ago a large proportion of that estate was sold simply because the present owner could not afford to pay Death Duties without its being put upon the market. No one to-day knows what is going to be the future of that historic building. Surely that is a very good illustration of what may happen unless the owner for the time being finds it possible to live on the premises and with all his knowledge of past history and family tradition, is able to do with it in the matter of extension or alteration as he himself thinks desirable. I do hope that some further consideration may be given by the Government to this appeal.
3.47 p.m.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: I very much want to support my noble friend's Amendment because it seems to me that you cannot legislate for good taste. You cannot send people to heaven by Acts of Parliament though you can send them to the other place. It is really a standard of values and tastes which will preserve our buildings and not legislation, and there has probably never been more interest in the upkeep of ancient buildings by voluntary societies and voluntary effort at preservation than there is to-day. If one is going to do as both Lord Radnor and Lord Warwick suggested—fix forever one particular standard of what is going on at the moment without any chance of growth on to the countryside—then you are not

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going to succeed in producing anything better in the country than before, but what you are going to do is to prevent a living thing going on. You are going also to prevent what is the only reason for a good many ancient buildings existing at all—people living in them. You are going to prevent them ultimately living there, and you are going to have vast masses of empty shells in due course standing about the countryside being preserved and shellacked over from time to time to prevent their falling in and to see that the roof is kept on. There will be no more use and no more life in them than anything in a museum.
But what really matters is that there is a principle in ownership of estates and lands, in most country houses, and it is a very wise principle, the owner always being brought to grief when he does not observe it; and that is if you overbuild your house to the size of the estate and your pocket it always comes to grief and the family with it. The land suffers, the family suffers and the estate suffers. A great many houses to-day are badly overbuilt in comparison to the land. The land cannot reasonably support them. They are a drain as much on the cottage as on the owner, and a great many of those buildings should come clown or in part at any rate he made smaller. You cannot have it both ways. The rating authorities to-day, if you make a large house smaller, put your rates up at once because they say it is more valuable. Here you are proposing to make it impossible really for a person to go on living in his house because you say "You shall not touch it—you shall not make any major alteration."
If there is going to be any real country life both the manor and the mansion, which are generally fairly historic places, must be .made a living part of a village community. It may be possible without pulling them down to devote a wing to some aspect of village life, which could not probably be done if you are not allowed to make any major alterations. You might be able to have a local industry, you might be able to use it for entertainments or a village club. All that might very owell be prevented if this clause stands part of the Bill.
3.51 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: The noble Lord made out a strong case for one point of view, but there is another aspect to consider. The Amendment proposes simply the omission of the clause. Suppose Parliament were to agree to that course and the clause were omitted, what would occur in such cases is this. We know that, owing mainly to the pressure of taxation, a number of houses of the character now under discussion may come upon the market. The family which has long possessed such a house may be under an obligation, purely for financial reasons, to dispose of a house of historic or architectural interest. The executors, when the next generation comes into possession, may feel constrained to do that. Some new owner comes forward with ample means, purchases the house and, perhaps having more money than historic sense or good taste, pulls it about, destroys its character and, to the scandal of the locality, commits outrages such as have been suffered in many cases, and which may surely be repeated. Then everybody would say, "How is it that in this age Parliament should allow such things, should remain callous and indifferent and see this vandalism going on, and these wealthy millionaires doing this and that to our old historic houses?"
What does the noble Lord who proposed the omission of this clause suggest? I think before the Committee agrees to that omission it ought to know what alternative is proposed to prevent precisely that state of things arising which I have just sketched as possible, and which everybody agrees may be possible. Now Parliament has to legislate, not for the normal case but for the exceptional case, and we are not considering the case of an old family which carefully safeguards its heritage and which gives no cause for complaint to anybody. On the contrary, there is a national gratitude for the way in which they have maintained these ancient possessions of England, which are among its greatest attractions and most valuable heritage. But what we are concerned with is to prevent abuses, and where legitimate changes are proposed in the character of a house we can assume that other people will be quite .well aware that some valueless wing of an old building which makes it far too large had much better be pulled down; because if it

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cannot be pulled down the family may have to give up living in the house altogether. The county council is well aware of all these facts and is not likely to do anything so unreasonable as to put the owner to that loss and under that penalty. And if the county council were unreasonable there is always provision for an appeal to the Minister, and the Minister is well advised by officers of State Departments, who are most careful and have proved their skill and capacity in dealing with these very matters. Consequently, while on the one hand I am inclined to think that the fears expressed are not likely to he realized, on the other hand if the Amendment is accepted there may come dangers of another kind, the incurring of which everyone would profoundly regret.
3.55 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think it will be agreed that this Amendment of Lord Radnor has raised a very interesting debate, and if we had not got other business to do I should be very willing for my part to see it continued for some time. There was a great deal which was said in support of the Amendment with which I felt the warmest sympathy. For example, it is certainly true that much that: we have in this country of historic and architectural value owes its quality to the fact that changes have been made at different times. Anybody who has ever shown a visitor round the Houses of Parliament omits to say what he ought to say when he goes to Westminster Hall if he does not point out that the walls were built in the time of William Rufus, the windows go back to Richard the Second and the roof is older than Elizabeth. A man who takes an interest in ecclesiastical architecture knows perfectly well how the interest in the finest church buildings depends on the fact that the lady chapel is Early English, the nave is Decorate I and the chancel is that or that. That is quite true, and there is a danger of sterilization, because we are dealing here with the subject of taste, and about taste nobody can be sure. Unless I recollect wrongly, the word "Gothic," which is now applied to church architecture in order to describe some of its greatest splendours, was originally applied, in the time of Queen Anne or thereabouts, as though it were a sort of substitute for Vandal—people thought it to be a most
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inferior form of architecture and that it was much better to go in for the Renaissance style.
All that I admit, and it certainly is not a matter which any instructed man who is advising the Minister is ever likely to overlook. But as Lord Samuel has said, what would you have? Here is the Town and Country Planning Act of 1932, which has stood, I think, with general approval. It provides in Clause 17 power to make orders for the preservation of ancient buildings, but it contains a limitation which, when you look at it, is really quite absurd. The only power under the Act of 1932 was to make an order to prevent a building being destroyed. You might knock it about as much as you pleased. My noble friend behind me said that the best guardians of many of these houses are the ancient and traditional possessors, but after all, sometimes these houses do pass into quite new hands, and I do not always guarantee that the new purchaser has all the traditions of the old. Is it not quite ridiculous, when Parliament has decided in the interests of the community to enable orders to be made which will prevent the destruction—mind you it is only of buildings of special historic or architectural interest—that you should make no provision for the case in which what is proposed is alteration or extension?
You can injure a building just as much by wicked pulling about, in substitution, as you can by pulling it down, Therefore it does appear to me that while my noble friend has raised a most interesting question—and I am all on the side of admiring the way in which our architecture has developed—at the same time I do not really think that we could possibly contemplate omitting this clause. The working of it is another matter, and I would join with anybody who can prove that this clause is worked in a wooden stupid way, simply attaching value to something as it is without regarding the possibility of its being made better, and not worse, by suitable changes. That is why I am myself much affected by what was suggested by Lord Bledisloe. I know that there are objections, but it seems to me a very interesting proposal when he suggested that the consultation which the Minister is required to have in Clause 40 (3) should also be provided for in the case of the exercise of his duties under Clause 41. I think that is very proper if

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it can be done. The only difficulty I can see at the moment is whether it is administratively possible.
There is one further point. I think myself that the cases which need to be checked under this Bill are quite as likely to occur in country towns as they are in the countryside. There is great and well justified respect for fine mansions. Nobody is likely to pull about some of those magnificent houses in the countryside—at least I hope not—but consider the provincial towns. In the main street there is a beautiful building which because there is no possibility of controlling it is eviscerated, turned into a cinema or a garage, to the scandal of all people who really feel in their bones some devotion to British tradition and what is best in British architecture. I cannot help feeling that when we review this matter we shall not be sorry that we joined the House of Commons in putting this clause in the Bill and I ask your Lordships to reject the Amendment.
4.1 p.m.
LORD LATHAM: I hope this Amendment will be rejected. I again wish to correct the impression in the minds certainly of some of the speakers in favour of the Amendment that this clause is designed to enable a local authority itself to carry out work upon a building. The noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, definitely assumed in the early part of his speech that a local authority would carry out certain alterations. As I understand it this clause merely adds to the present law the power to control or prohibit alterations or extensions. There is no new principle introduced in this clause as regards powers possessed by local authorities. Local authorities can only act under it by and with the permission of the Minister.
I was glad the noble and learned Viscount referred to the situation in towns and cities, because only a few days ago the London County Council were held up to some modest—I will not say unfair—criticism and rebuke for what they had not done, it was alleged, in Berkeley Square. I then ventured, charging my recollection, to say that it was because the London County Council had not the appropriate powers. Since then I have checked up my information and I find that I was right and that in fact the London County
968
Council had no effective power. That statement is based upon a circular issued by the Ministry of Health in 1935—Circular 305—in which local authorities were told that the exercise of their powers under the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, should be limited to preventing what may be reasonably regarded as outrage buildings—the word "outrage" is used—out of keeping with their surroundings, and an offence to the neighbourhood. We were advised in the light of that circular and after consultation with the Minister that we had no powers to enable us to prevent certain things being done in Berkeley Square. Early last year when the Town and Country Planning Bill of that year was under consideration we made representations to the Minister that the situation should be clarified in this respect, but we met with no success.
I hope that those members of your Lordships' House who, if I may say it with every respect, seem to have a jaundiced view of local authorities as a whole, will remember that the domestic administration of this country has been carried on by local government, and carried on very successfully by local government, both in peace and in war. There are no grounds for imagining that if this additional power is given to local authorities, subject to the proviso that it can only be exercised by and with the permission of the Minister, there are likely to be many abuses.
4.5 p.m.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: My Amendment has produced, as the noble and learned Viscount said, an extremely interesting debate, but in the arguments of those who opposed the Amendment I think there is very little of great substance. The noble Lord, Lord Latham, said there is no new principle in this. The provisions of the 1932 Act dealt only with the destruction of such buildings and this clause deals with alterations. But as I tried to point out when introducing the Amendment, refusal of permission to make alterations may well mean that the individual who lives in a house will not be able to continue to live there. That is in its way a new principle. It must be presumed that if he wants to destroy the house he does not want to live in it, but he may want to alter it in order to be able to live in it. There is therefore rather a new principle. The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, pointed out

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the case of an individual who might buy a historic house and alter it in an outrageous way. That raises the point touched on by the noble and learned Viscount. Who is to say what is outrageous? There are things to-day which no artistic body would allow you to destroy but which when first built were looked on as the most appalling outrages. It may well be that the outrageous alterations of to-day will be looked on one hundred years hence as something that ought to be preserved in the national interest.
There is one other point I would like to make. So far as I can see in this clause cases that may come before the local authority or before the Minister must be judged—the Lord Chancellor will correct me if I am wrong—on artistic merit and on no other merit. The whole burden of these two clauses is artistic merit and not the necessities which may compel an owner to put forward sug-
Resolved in the affirmative and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
4.15 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after Clause 41, to insert the following new clause:
Appeals in respect of design or external appearance of buildings.
" .Where, in accordance with paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of Section twelve of the
gestions for radical alterations to his house. Therefore the human side, as I tried to point out when I moved the Amendment, will necessarily be neglected. I would remind your Lordships once again of what I said and of the remarks of my noble friend the Earl of Portsmouth. There is very definitely a human side. In many cases these houses are the centre of the community and the home of a family who perform an extremely useful function in the national life. It may be made impossible for them to continue to live in the house and the choice may be whether you are going to favour bricks and mortar or human beings. I feel so strongly that I feel compelled to put the matter to a Division.
On Question, Whether the clause proposed to be left out shall stand part of the Bill?
Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 48; Not-Contents, 15.

CONTENTS.

Simon, V.(L. Chancellor.)

Hampden, V.

Clwyd, L.

Margesson, V.

Cottesloe, L.

York, L. Abp.

Maugham, V.

Croft, L.

Mersey, V.

Denman, L.

Norfolk, D. (E. Marshal.)

Samuel, V.

Faringdon, L.

Devonshire, D.

Hare, L. (E. Listowel.)

Exeter, M.

London, L. Bp.

Hindlip, L.

Reading, M.

Holden, L.

Addison, L.

Jessel, L.

Cavan, E.

Ailwyn, L.

Latham, L.

Fortescue, E. [Teller.]

Ammon, L.

Luke, L.

Jersey, E.

Balfour of Burleigh, L.

Meston, L.

Lucan, E.

Boyle, L. (E. Cork and Orrery.)

Southwood, L.

Lytton, E .

Stanmore, L.

Strafford, E.

Bruntisfield, L.

Templemore, L. [Teller.]

Vane, E. (M. Londonderry.)

Cecil, L. (V. Craborne.)

Wemyss, L. (E. Wemyss.)

Chesham, L.

Wolverton, L.

Astor, V.

Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

Woolton, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Abingdon, E.

Bledisloe, V.

Denham, L.

Brooke and Warwick, E.

Long, V.

Hemingford, L.

Portsmouth, E. [Teller.]

Wimborne, V.

Latymer, L.

Radnor, E. [Teller.]

Remnant, L.

Ilchester, E.

Bingley, L.

St. Levan, L.

Onslow, E.

Town and Country Planning Act 1932, provision is made by a planning scheme for enabling the responsible authority to regulate the design or external appearance of buildings, any appeal under that subsection from a decision of the responsible authority shall, if the scheme so provides, lie to the Minister instead of to a court of summary jurisdiction or a special tribunal, and accordingly the said subsection shall have effect as it, after the words summary jurisdiction' there were inserted the words 'or to the Minister'."
The noble and learned Viscount said: I beg to move a new clause to be inserted here dealing with appeals in respect of design or external appearance of buildings. The object of this new clause is to ensure that where, in accordance with the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932.
"provision is made by a planning scheme for enabling the responsible authority to regulate the design or external appearance of buildings, any appeal under that subsection from a decision of a responsible authority shall, if the scheme so provides, lie to the Minister."
I think it is pretty clear that it is to the Minister that the appeal should go, and not as now arranged, for I believe that now it goes to the magistrates. Amongst other things, this will assist in the maintenance of some sort of standard by which to proceed. Apart from that, I think the Minister and his skilled advisers will deal with this matter more appropriately. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, insert the said new clause.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
4.18 p.m.
Clause 42:
Extension as respects war period of protection for existing buildings and uses.
(3) Where, at any time during the war period (whether before or after the commencement of this Act) the existing use of any building has been discontinued—

(a) by reason of the occurrence to the building of war damage;

(b) by reason of possession of the building having been taken in the exercise or purported exercise of emergency powers, or by an authority by whom, at a time at which, and for a purpose for which, possession of the building could have been so taken; or

(c) in consequence of any arrangement for the concentration of production approved, or of any order for that purpose made, by the Board of Trade in the exercise or purported exercise of such powers;

no account shall be taken for the purposes of proviso (i) to the definition of "existing use" in Section fifty-three of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932 (which provides that no subsequent use of a building is to be deemed to be an existing use if the existing use has been discontinued for a period of eighteen months) of any time during which the resumption of the existing use of the building is or has been prevented either as mentioned in paragraph (a), (b) or (c) of this subsection or by reason of the refusal by the Minister on appeal of an interim development application for permission to resume that use.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after paragraph (c) in subsection (3), to insert:
"(d) by reason of the entry of the occupier of the building into whole-time service in the Armed Forces of the Crown or in the Merchant Navy or the Mercantile Marine or in a Civil Defence Force within the meaning of the National Service Acts, 1939 to 1942, or, in the case of a woman, in any of the capacities mentioned in the First Schedule to the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act, 1944; or
(e) by reason of such other circumstances as may be prescribed."
The noble and learned Viscount said: There is, I believe, an Amendment by Lord Chesham to this, and I think something might be said for taking the two matters together. The object of the Amendment which I now move, and which stands in the name of my noble friend Lord Woolton, is to secure that where the existing use of a building has been discontinued because the occupier has been called up into the Armed Forces, or has volunteered, or has been directed to other employment, compensation rights attaching to the building, as an existing building, are preserved, as they plainly ought to be, and as they are preserved by the subsection as it stands in the cases there mentioned. The new paragraph (d) deals with the cases to which I have referred, and it is clear that often other cases are likely to emerge besides those dealt with which ought, reasonably, to receive similar treatment. I propose that we should add paragraph (e) also to enable the Minister to make regulations to extend subsection (3) to any such cases. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 51, line 29, at end insert the said new paragraphs.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD CHESHAM LORD CHESHAM moved to add to the proposed Amendment, in paragraph (e), after "prescribed," the words "including closing of shop or trading premises owing to the inability of the occupier to obtain sufficient stock to enable him to carry on or to his deprivation of adequate access to markets which have prior to the war been available to him." The noble Lord said: I want to say now that I do not consider that either the Government Amendment or my own goes far enough. We have a list of exceptions in subsection (3). The Government now wish to add two more, and I wish to add another. As the noble and learned Viscount has said,

973
there are many other reasons, and there are many other classes of person (the small shopkeeper, for example) who should be excluded. I do not quite like the vagueness of the proposed paragraph (e)—" by reason of such other circumstances as may be prescribed." I am not at all clear who will prescribe them.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Minister.
LORD CHESHAM: Or in what manner they will be prescribed. Anything that I have to say is based on concrete cases of hardship which have arisen not under this Bill, because it is not yet law, but under the Act of 1932. We have had several cases, and my suggestions are based on them. There are people who have been unable to carry on their business owing to lack of trade through war damage in the area. They are not provided for. There are people who have been prevented from carrying on business through lack of trade due to evacuation. There are various other reasons in addition to those already put down of which account should be taken. I notice that in Clause 10 of the Bill, subsection (1) (d), there is an expression which may cover all the exceptions which have been envisaged here. It is "by reason of war circumstances." It is an extremely wide expression, but it is in the Bill in another clause, and I should like to suggest to the Government that they might on the Report stage consider leaving out all these paragraphs lettered (a), (b), (c) and so on and putting in the one phrase "by reason of war circumstances." I do not know whether I have made myself dear, but that will cover everything, in my view, in a better way than will he done by vague prescribed provisions. If the Government are willing to consider that, I shall not press my Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved—
In paragraph (e) after ("prescribed") insert the sail words.—(Lord Chesham.)
LORD LATHAM: I hope that the noble and learned Viscount will agree to look at this matter between now and the Report stage. I cannot agree, speaking for one large local authority, that this Committee should seek to make these exceptions as wide as possible, because it roust be remembered that somebody has
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to pay. I do not know whether the Committee appreciate what this clause is about. This clause is in connexion with what are popularly known in planning circles as nonconforming buildings. Under the Act of 1932, continued by the Act of 1943, if a building which did not conform to the building lines and the planning scheme were pulled down, and a new building were erected within not more than two years, that new building could be put up in precisely the same nonconforming way as the former building. It is proposed in this Bill, and I think quite properly, to extend that period of two years so that the war years should not, as it were, run against it; that is to say, the owners of the building should not be at a disadvantage because of the war years, when it has not been possible to carry-out any rebuilding of a destroyed or demolished building.
I cannot think what kind of hard cases my noble friend Lord Chesham can have had experience of in connexion with this provision. Certainly they cannot have arisen during the war, because nobody has been able to rebuild during the war except under licence and for national purposes, so that there cannot have been any cases of real hardship during the war. In any case Parliament decided that the period should be two years. I think that there is something to be said for widening the scope of the exception, however, but I think that it must be done with reason and with care, and regard must be had to the fact that to the extent that you widen the exceptions you do cast potential compensation upon the local authority, and therefore upon the ratepayers, whose interests are from time to time, even as regards planning, entitled to some consideration.
4.26 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think that the Committee can probably dispose of this matter quickly, because I am very willing to do what is suggested by Lord Latham and by Lord Chesham—namely, to give an assurance that I will have this matter looked at with a view to making sure that a sufficiently wide provision is made. But we have to be careful about this. I do not want to spend time in needless criticism, but my noble friend Lord Chesham will see at once that the test, for example, of "the inability of the occupier to obtain sufficient stock to

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enable him to carry on" is capable of being interpreted as meaning that he had not enough money.
LORD LATHAM: Or that he could not get into the "black market."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It might be that. Moreover, "deprivation of adequate access to markets" might mean either that there were transport difficulties or that the markets had disappeared by reason of war circumstances. There are all kinds of unexpected developments which might occur and of which it would not be possible to approve, but I will gladly undertake that between now and the Report stage we will consider whether there is anything more that we can say. In cases of this sort, where we all really want to do the fair thing but it is very difficult to visualize in detail exactly what the circumstances are going to be, there is a great deal to be said for adding a paragraph such as (e), "by reason of such other circumstances as may be prescribed," because then the Minister, when he finds a kind of case which ought to be met, is able to make a regulation. Generally speaking, it is better to have these things in an Act of Parliament, but this is not the sort of case in which it is possible to be sure that that is the best way of doing it. If my noble friend will withdraw his Amendment now and let me have my new paragraphs, I will undertake to see that this is studied afresh, so as to be sure that it covers the cases which ought reasonably to be covered.
4.29 p.m.
LORD CHESHAM: I shall be pleased to withdraw my Amendment, but I should like to answer Lord Latham's objection that there can be no question of hardship. What I was referring to was the "existing use" of a building, which expires in the normal way after eighteen months. Suppose the building has been empty and not used for a certain purpose for eighteen months, that "existing use" is not considered to exist. The list of exceptions that we are trying to make relate to cases where the existing use is not due to the fault of the owner or of the trader in any way. It has nothing to do with the building. It is a question of existing use. I beg to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 51, line 37, leave out ("paragraphs (a), (b) or (c)") and insert ("paragraphs (a) to (e)").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 42, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 43 agreed to.
Clause 44 [Provisions as to borrowing for purposes of this Part]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This Amendent is really necessary in view of an Amendment we have made in an earlier clause. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 53, line 9, after ("authority") insert ("or a county council").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 53, line 9, leave out ("the authority") and insert ("them").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 44, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 45 to 48 agreed to.
4.33 p.m.
VISCOUNT ASTOR VISCOUNT ASTOR moved, after Clause 48, to insert:
Provisions for extension of boundaries of certain county and non-county boroughs.
".—(1) Within two years of the coming into force of this Act any county borough or borough which has suffered material damage as a result of enemy action shall have the right to make representations to the Minister stating that without a revision of the boundaries of any such county borough or borough, it is not possible to carry into effect an adequate scheme for the planning and redevelopment of the said county borough or borough.
(2) Upon receiving any such representations the Minister shall transmit a copy thereof to the Minister of Health, and the Minister and the Minister of Health shall each appoint a representative to hold jointly a public local inquiry within the area of the county borough or borough council making the said representations, and Section two hundred and ninety of the Local Government Act, 1933, shall apply

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to may such inquiry as if the said inquiry were held under that Act.
(3) After considering the report of the persons holding the said inquiry and all representations made thereat, the Minister of Health shall, if he is satisfied that it is not possible for the said county borough or borough council adequately to plan and redevelop their area without a revision of the boundaries of the said area, make an order altering the boundaries of the said county borough or borough in such manner and to such extent as he may think fit in order to enable adequate planning and redevelopment to be carried out.
(4) A county borough or borough council making representations under subsection (1) of this section shall at the same time that the representations are sent to the Minister, send a copy thereof to the council of any county and of any county district which would be affected if effect were to be given to the said representations.
(5) An order made by the Minister of Health under subsection (2) of this section shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament and shall not come into effect until approved by a Resolution passed in both Houses.
(6) The powers conferred in this section shall be exercisable by the Minister of Health notwithstanding any provision in Part VI of the Local Government Act, 1933, to the contrary; and the said powers shall be in addition to the powers conferred by Part VI of the said Act and shall be exercisable without prejudice to the rights conferred by the said Act upon councils ether than the councils of the county boroughs and borough mentioned in subsection (1) of this section.
(7) For the purposes of an order made under this section, there shall be deemed to he incorporated in this Act, Sections one hundred and forty-eight to one hundred and fifty-five inclusive and the Fifth Schedule of the Local Government Act, 1933, and any order made under this section may include such provisions for any one or more of the purposes provided fur in Sections one hundred and fifty, one hundred and fifty-one and one hundred and fifty-two of the said Act as may appear to the Minister of Health to be just.
(8) Any revision or alteration made under this section of the boundaries of any one or more of the county boroughs or borough referred to in subsection (1) of this section shall have effect as if the said revision or alteration had been made under the powers conferred by the Local Government Act, 1933."
The noble Viscount said: I move this Amendment at the request of the planing committees of seven cities—Hull, Sunderland, Bristol, Portsmouth, Dover, Great Yarmouth and Plymouth. This Amendment was before another place in three forms. It was first put down by the members of those seven cities; in slightly alternative phraseology it was put forward by independent Back Benchers who took a particular interest in this Bill and who had no particular interest in
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those seven cities but were convinced of the rightness of the demand; and a third form was put on the Order Paper (although it was not actually discussed) by an ex-Minister of Health who realized the danger to the seven cities if we had to wait for the promised legislation which has been adumbrated. During the debates in which I have taken part here I have spoken not as an expert but as one who has been in direct contact with the question of planning. It is only little by little that the local authorities who have to deal with the problem of planning appreciate the problem before them and its implications. I can assure your Lordships that in the localities themselves there is still disagreement because the whole problem is so vast and many of the issues are new.
The Minister in charge of the Bill on the Third Reading received many congratulations. I want him to be in a position to receive similar congratulations and messages of good will in six months' time, but unless an Amendment such as this is added to the Bill I am confident, from what I have heard from the other cities and also from the city with which I am particularly associated, that we shall he forced to tell him that the Bill which he has passed to help us to plan has not got the necessary power; and far from cheering the Minister, we shall all be condemning him for having failed to incorporate in his Bill the necessary power. I will not deal with the fact that a large number of people still mix up the issues of rehousing and planning. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, the other day explained what was meant by planning. Even in the city with which I am concerned we have on the council people who do not want to plan but who want to rehouse. This is a Bill to introduce modern standards and new principles into the planning of cities. I shall naturally be talking mainly in terms of Plymouth. But I have received sufficient information from the other six cities to know that their problem is exactly the same as ours—the problem of overspill, the problem of an inadequate amount of land in which to house their people.
In Plymouth the problem is more acute than it is in many other places because the Admiralty have indicated their intention of extending and modernizing the dockyard. They propose to take 240 acres which before the war housed 22,000 people. These people have to be dis-

979
placed. We are quite willing to do all we can to assist the Admiralty with the extension of the dockyard but that does create a very serious problem. Plymouth was, I regret to say, an overcrowded city. Our programme visualizes in the next few years—I will not say exactly the number of years, it depends on so many factors, the availability of labour, materials and other things—the housing of 64,000 people. And it is the fact that by our plan we can only rehouse 24,000 within the city boundaries. If our plan goes through and is maintained as far as Plymouth is concerned, there will be an overspill of 40,000 of the population.
We are the first city I believe that is trying an experiment which I think ought to appeal to your Lordships. We are the first urban council who in their planning have deliberately gone out of their way to try and look after agriculture. We got an expert down to examine all the soil and we are proposing that land within the city boundary, which I admit was originally brought into the city in order to house, should be reserved for agriculture because we are advised that it is good agricultural land and that there is other land not so good for food production over the border. We have suggested—and this we have had to do with humility because we were making suggestions for the area outside Plymouth—that there should be zoning for agricultural purposes. We have also suggested that the overspill should go into the villages and hamlets, not that we should acquire one large site and have a sort of satellite city. We have suggested that the character of the neighbourhood should be preserved, that we should prevent sprawl, that districts should be zoned for agriculture. That which produces our problem is our inability, if we try to help agriculture as we want to do, to house within our boundary all the people who have to be housed. Looking ahead I feel that it is in the national interest to try and blend rural and urban interests so that those interests should not be kept so much divorced as they have been in the past. What a snub it will be to other cities if the first time that an urban community tries to protect agriculture it is turned down; if, instead of preserving this land which we are advised is very suitable for food production, we are told that we must cover it with houses.
It is a very serious problem for a city like Plymouth with a population of roughly 200,000 if it is expected to fix its maximum future population at eighty per cent. of what it was before the war; if it is to give up the prospect of growing; if it is to disfranchise twenty per cent. of its citizens—that is what it means—and if they have to live outside. And this is important: if four-fifths of the ratepayers have to carry a burden of past debts the future government and administration of the city will impose an intolerable burden. It may be too much to expect a city to undertake such a scheme as Plymouth proposes if its financial powers are reduced.
The Amendment on the Paper is lengthy, but I venture to suggest that we should not discuss it in detail, but should discuss its purpose. If I can persuade your Lordships and others who support me that this is a right clause to add to the Bill then questions of detail and drafting can be left for amendment. We certainly in Plymouth, and others, have experienced legislation by Private Bill. It is expensive, it is cumbersome and it is slow. We had a borough boundary Extension Bill in Plymouth before the war which cost us £30,000. That sort of thing deters local authorities. We suggest machinery which will be more expeditious, cheaper and less cumbersome. If your Lordships will study the Amendment you will see that it applies only to certain cities—cities where the problem of planning is an urgent one. It is really an emergency problem. That is why we limit the time to two years.
We do not ask that our plea should necessarily be adopted for a boundary extension. We merely ask for an opportunity of stating our needs, of stating the case before an impartial tribunal. There cannot be anything to object to in that. We merely ask for an opportunity to state our problem. The Minister must be satisfied before anything is done that our scheme is a good scheme. The tribunal must be satisfied that our proposals are fair and reasonable. Here is a further safeguard, that both Houses of Parliament have to give their approval. Can there be anything more conservative than this proposal here? If the Minister of Health succeeds in the proposal which he, I belive, has in hand of introducing later on a Bill for a general survey of legislation of local authority boundaries, the experience

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gained in these seven cases here ought to be of inestimable advantage to him. The tribunals which we suggest should be set up ought to be able to work out principles that should be of great help.
What are the main arguments brought by the Government in another place against our proposal? First of all it was "Wait and see; we are going to deal with all borough boundaries." The Government are two years—three years—late in considering a measure of that character. I agree that it ought to be done. It ought to have been done a year ago, two years ago, three years ago. How long is it going to take before there is public discussion of the White Paper which we are promised, and then before it gets through Parliament? Anybody who has anything to do with local government knows that anything touching the boundaries of local authorities is highly controversial. If it is controversial to ask Parliament to enable seven "blitzed" towns to deal with an urgent problem, how much more controversial is it going to be to pass an omnibus Bill providing for the survey of the boundaries of all local authorities? I wonder whether we realize the congestion that is going to face Parliament when the war is over. What is going to happen on the Continent? Starvation, unemployment. The Houses of Parliament are gong to he busy with all kinds of international as well as domestic and social affairs. The Government have admitted the need for tribunals surveying boundaries. I do venture to urge them and to urge your Lordships not to gamble with the prospect of the planning of these seven cities by waiting.
The next argument which was brought was that loss of population would not necessarily mean loss of rateable value. The Minister of Health made a great point of this. There is great confusion between the rateable value, the assessment value, the capital value of buildings and property, the rate paid per pound and also the rate per head of population. I will only put before your Lordships a comparison of two cities taken quite deliberately in order to show how difficult this problem is. They are Blackpool and Merthyr Tydfil. The rateable value of Blackpool is £1,678,000 and of Merthyr Tydfil £226,000. The rateable value of Blackpool is seven times greater than that of Merthyr Tydfil. What are the rates
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paid per pound? In Blackpool 10s. in the pound and in Merthyr Tydfil 30s. 6d. In Merthyr Tydfil it is three times that in Blackpool, but the real point is: What is the taxation paid per head? What are the rates paid per head in those two cities? If you take that test—and I suggest that is the right test—you will find that in Blackpool the rate per head is £63s. 6d. and in Merthyr Tydfil it is£419s. That is to say that in Blackpool the ratepayers pay £1 per head more.
There are three facts which are inescapable: One is that a definite sum has to be found to finance a city; the second is that this sum has to be found by the ratepayers, and then—and this is the point I want to put before your Lordships—is the total sum of money which has to be found going to be found by zoo per cent. of our ratepayers or by 80 per cent.? The Minister in charge of the Bill seemed to be quite satisfied that 80 per cent, of the ratepayers could bear the burden provided the rateable value went up. I am going to appeal to the noble Lord, Lord Woolton. He has not a legal mind. I value a legal mind, but I am going to appeal to him as a business man. As a business man would he like to be one of four-fifths of the ratepayers to bear the burden of financing the city or would he not like to he one of five-fifths of the ratepayers? That is to say would he not like to have the other fifth, the other 20 per cent., of the ratepayers to assist him in bearing the burden?
This is a very serious problem because one cannot compel industrialists or shopkeepers to remain in a city, and if the rate per head which they have to bear is unduly high they may go elsewhere. Take, for instance, this question of the dockyard extension. A dockyard is a derated hereditament. Pre-war the acreage of the dockyard was 325 and the rateable value was £41,457. The rateable value in the past of the 240 extra acres, which it is now proposed to include in the dockyard and to convert into a derated hereditament, was £53,000. One cannot juggle with these figures. At the moment, as I have told your Lordships, we are living on a subsidy given by the Treasury. We are very grateful for that help. It is an annual subsidy. We do not know how long that is going to be continued. We do not know when we

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are going to be able to rebuild our shopping community. It is a question of priority. Obviously the first claim will be for housing, but until we can get our shops built we cannot begin to pay our way. It may be five years or it may be ten years. This is what I want to put before your Lordships, that in the near future there is going to be moved an amendment in the City Council of Plymouth for an alternative scheme. There are always people who are opposed to anything which is new or big in vision; but we are going to have a movement for an alternative scheme because in the opinion of those councillors and aldermen the Government assistance is inadequate.
What a lamentable failure if each of these seven cities is unable to go ahead with their plan which has been universally acclaimed as being good because the powers contained in this Bill are inadequate. Most cities do not have to face this problem. It is only a certain number of cities which, because they are "blitzed," have to consider now whether to recast their lav-out; it is only a certain number of cities which are short of land if they want to carry out modern planning. I venture to urge your Lordships to assist these cities, for whom this Bill, I understand, is largely intended, and to give us sufficient powers to carry out the object and intention of this Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 54, line 38, at end insert the said new clause.—(viscount Astor)
4.51 p.m.
LORD DENHAM: In rising to oppose this clause 1 do hope that the noble Viscount opposite will acquit me of any personal desire to postpone, impede, or hinder the grand schemes they are making in Plymouth or any of the other six cities. My objection to this clause goes far deeper than that. Indeed, I would almost venture to suggest that in another place this clause would not strictly he in order. My first point in opposition to the clause is that the noble Viscount has chosen the wrong Bill in which to insert it. There are three main objections which I see to the new clause. In the first place, it tries to deal with the most complicated question of the extension of county boroughs in a Bill which really has no general relevance to the question of the extension of boundaries at all. The noble
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Viscount has said that only seven cities are affected, but I think that if this new clause is passed, not only will it be a very dangerous precedent but, as I will show in a minute, there are much graver things that will happen, because the whole future of Private Bill legislation is threatened.
My second objection to the clause is this. The Minister of Health on the 3rd August made a very definite statement as to the intention of the Government in dealing with the alteration of boundaries. Let me refer first to what the Minister of Town and Country Planning himself said in another place so recently as the 9th October. He said that the Minister, when asked whether he was in a position to define the attitude of the Government in the matter of local government, said the Government did not consider that a case had been made out for any disruption of the existing structure of local government or for the abandonment of the main features of the county borough system in favour of some form of regional government. He then proceeded to quote what the Minister of Health actually said, which was this:
"The Government are satisfied that within the general framework of the county and county borough system there is need and scope for improvement, and in particular for amending the machinery of the Local Government Act, 1933, relating to adjustment of status and boundaries. Before putting detailed proposals before Parliament I propose to take advantage of the experience and knowledge of the local government associations, and for that purpose to open discussions with those bodies as soon as may be. My intention would be, in the light of those discussion, to lay before Parliament a general outline of the Government's proposals before submitting actual legislative measures."
Now there are two definite promises there: (1) to open discussions with the associations, the Urban District Councils' Association, the Rural District Councils' Associations and other like bodies; and (2) that a White Paper would be laid on which there there could be discussion not only in the country but in both Houses of Parliament. It would almost be breaking faith with what the Minister of Health said on the 3rd August if this new clause were to be added to this Bill.
My third objection is a little more technical. The whole question of county borough extension was the subject of

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prolonged discussions by the Royal Commission on Local Government, whose recommendations were embodied in the Act of 1926, called the Local Government (County Boroughs and Adjustments) Act, the provisions of which were subsequently embodied in the Local Government Act, 1933. The main principle has always been that so far as the extension of county boroughs is concerned 'here shall not be any extension unless the local authorities concerned agree, and there shall not be any extension of the local authorities' boundaries without the express authority of Parliament. Therefore, a local authority which desires to oppose any proposed extension of boundary has always been able to submit its case to the Private Bill Committees of both Houses, and many an urban district council and rural district council has successfully opposed schemes by borough councils to seize either all or part of their area. What does this new clause propose? It proposes that the order, when made by the Minister of Health, should have no effect unless approved by Resolution of both Houses. But—and this is the gravamen of the charge I bring against the new clause—the very fact that the Minister of Health has made an order at all is bound to weigh heavily against any urban district council or rural district council who may want to come to Parliament and ask Parliament to vote against the Resolution confirming the older. It changes the whole scheme of Private Bill legislation, and the opposing local authority will have the dice loaded against it if the principle of Private Bill legislation is changed in this matter.
So, if I may sum up what I wish to say, this new clause ought not to be accepted by the Government for the three reasons I have given: (1), that it has been included (if I may say so with great respect) in the wrong Bill; (2), that it would be almost a breach of faith after the undertaking given by the Minister of Health in another place; and (3), that it would have a very serious effect upon the future of Private Bill legislation, and must indeed affect the whole future of local government. I hope therefore that the noble and learned Viscount will not accept the new clause.
5.0 p.m.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: I am quite unprejudiced in this matter. It is well
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known to all of us that any suggestion that the boundaries of a district should be extended—such a district as Plymouth, or the cities which the noble Viscount has mentioned—not only will be hotly opposed, but will lead to violent opposition. I start with the conviction that the existing boundaries of Plymouth and of the other six towns, so far as I know their circumstances, have got to be extended if this Bill is to have any real beneficial effect on those particular cities. It is not all the towns or cities that are affected. When a vast number of people have been bombed out and a great number of houses have been destroyed in such a city as Plymouth it is perfectly plain that if these people are to be given suitable accommodation there must be what is described as an overspill which will go beyond the existing boundaries. I have not heard anybody either in this House or outside it suggest that there is anything wrong if it is considered necessary in such cases to have an extension. Then the only question that arises is how the extension should he legally provided for. It is said by my noble friend Lord Denham that the Amendment is out of place in this Bill, but the Bill provides for an overspill and makes it necessary for Plymouth to make such a provision. If that is to be done, and it follows from that that there has to be some extension of the boundary if Plymouth is to carry out this planning scheme, in what Bill should my noble friend Viscount Astor put Ins Amendment? In effect he is being told, "You have got to do this" and the consequence is that the boundary has to be extended. I should have thought that nothing was more reasonable than that he should attempt to get power, speedily and by not too expensive a means, in this Bill.
It is said that the Minister of Health has given a pledge. I do not know what pledge he gave and I do not know how he construes it. We are not altering the law here. We are only hoping to pass an Amendment to a Bill which has to go back to another place, and if the Minister says it would be contrary to his pledge to accept this the whole thing will go by the board. What I imagine the noble Viscount is saying is simply that this Amendment is necessary for his city to carry out the duties which it conceives Parliament is going to put upon it. It cannot be said

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that this particular Amendment is improper. There are advantages in a Private Bill. I am not against Private Bill legislation where it is necessary, but I cannot see that it is necessary, if the premise is agreed to that an extension of the boundaries is necessary. If noble Lords think it is not necessary that is a reason for opposing the Amendment, but if the view is accepted as correct, that there has got to be an extension of boundaries, that is the main point which has to be determined in a Private Bill.
The noble Viscount has put into the subsections of the proposed clause a number of safeguards which make it certain that no improper extension of boundaries will be permitted. There is to be under subsection (2) a public local inquiry by representatives appointed by the Minister of Health and the Minister acting under this Bill. Then in subsection (3) it is provided that the Minister may make an order. It is for him to say whether he will make an order for the extension if he is satisfied that it is not possible for the county borough or the county council adequately to plan and redevelop their area without revision of the boundaries of the area. If people think there ought not to be an extension they will make representations and perhaps the Minister of Health will not take that view. Provision is made in subsection (4) for making representations and then there comes a subsection to which reference has already been made providing that an order made by the Minister shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament and shall not come into effect until approved by a Resolution passed in both Houses. Then there is provision that all sorts of safeguards which are to be found in Sections 148 to 155 and the Fifth Schedule of the Local Government Act, 1933, shall be incorporated in this Bill. I am quite unable to understand how this clause can be strongly objected to on the ground of principle by any fair-minded person who sees that if it is not assented to a grave evil will follow and some of these cities will be unable to plan properly. I beg therefore to support the amendment.
5.6 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: There is a certain disadvantage in a series of speeches being made on an Amendment of this kind if the Government view is not stated. I was naturally willing to
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give way to my noble and learned friend Viscount Maugham, but having heard his speech I am sure he will take it kindly if I say that I rather wish I had pointed out one or two things before he spoke. But he is so fair minded that I am sure he will listen with equal impartiality. He said that he started with a conviction. It is bad to start with a conviction. You should reach a conviction after hearing arguments. He said he did not know what was the promise of the Minister of Health, but it is extremely important that we should know because upon the knowledge of what he promised this proposal was withdrawn in the House of Commons after full debate, and withdrawn by Mr. Storey, who is Member for Sunderland, one of the seven cities concerned. It was withdrawn after discussion which I think was very full and after the Minister had stated very dogmatically what his assurance was, and it was withdrawn by a representative of the "blitzed" cities.
I hope I may be allowed to say before I go further that I share very fully the admiration which we all feel in this House for the zeal and devotion of my noble friend Lord Astor in this matter. It is really perfectly splendid. I was sorry to hear from his speech that he does not think he can carry his city council with him unless he gets this clause or something like it. I hope they will be open to persuasion. The real point is that, however much one may concentrate one's attention on the urgency of the need of a great city like Plymouth, in the matter of boundaries you cannot get any more unless somebody has The shaping of boundaries involves just as important a question for county councils and rural district councils, on behalf of whom my noble friend Lord Denham made his attractive speech, as for towns. To be fair you have to look at it from both sides. I have no doubt that for the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, it is very difficult when, very understandably, he is so terribly in earnest and so terribly eager for the city. It is a most complicated question. There are arguments which may be very validly advanced in favour of the view that where there is going to be movement of a large part of a city's boundaries, because of the damage suffered, into areas outside, a change of boundaries is needed. There may be such cases. It does not follow, unless I entirely misunderstand this matter. The London

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County Council is not asking to increase the boundary of the County of London though it has got a very great scheme.
There, is not, in fact, any complete or logical connexion between the two though I quite agree in some cases they may be thought more naturally to go together. The provisions of this Bill which give great cities the power to plan to move their populations outside and to acquire land outside. proceed on the assumption that these two things will not march together. Nor need they. It is not true, for example, to say—I think I shall be corrected if I am wrong about this—that the removal outside a city of a portion of its population necessarily reduces its total rateable value.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: Almost inevitably it does.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: As we know, long ago when a large part of the population of the City of London moved itself outside the result was that greater and finer buildings were set up, and the rateable value of what was left was increased. I do rot think it is universally true that the rat cable value is reduced. Whether it is true in the case of Plymouth I do not know, and I should hope that as regards Plymouth my noble friend Viscout Astor will be able to overcome the anxieties of his council on that point.
It is a fair argument on his side that it may be the case that rural authorities, in sore cases small authorities, have not got either the experience or the ability at their disposal to deal with these matters within their areas satisfactorily. It is really a mistake, if I may say so with great respect co anyone who thinks otherwise, to believe that because you have a fine plan by which you seek to move people outside it follows as a matter of course that you have to follow that with your boundary. In the case of Plymouth—and I would not say one word to discourage a fine plan—let us understand what appears to be involved. As I understand it, it is proposed not to create one satellite settlement to which a portion of the Plymouth population is to go, but to create half a dozen such settlements in different parts of the county of Devon. And these satellite areas are not to be contiguous to the boundary of Plymouth in all cases. I think in some cases they are to be as much as ten miles away.
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No doubt, you may say, all that will be thrashed out at a public inquiry, but we must appreciate that what is aimed at in this clause, at least in the case of Plymouth, is to increase the area of Plymouth ten times—well perhaps eight times or something like that. You cannot have discontinuous areas, you must have continuous areas. The plan as I understand it is to draw a circle large enough to include all the satellites and to take a Green Belt in between.
VISCOUNT ASTOR: No.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: No Green Belt? I thought, in view of the observations of my noble friend Viscount Astor as to the interest which the good citizens of Plymouth were showing in agriculture, that they were looking forward to the acquisition of a Green Belt. But this is a very big scheme, which I would have thought does require the careful consideration which Parliament itself has always been disposed to give to these questions of alterations of boundaries. The argument which my noble friend advances is that he wants it done quickly, and it is because that is a very important issue that I call attention now to what the Minister of Health has said in the House of Commons. The date on which he spoke was October 9. My noble friend sitting behind me has already quoted something of what was said on that day, but though he read a portion of the Statement he did not read the one which, I think, followed, and which really was the conclusion of the matter. If we were simply leaving the old machinery alone and saying, "As has been in the past so let it be in the future, and we will have this, possibly, slow and creaking inquiry and not attempt to hurry things up at all," that would be another thing. But what the Minister of Health said was this; and I think that my noble friend Lord Woolton has been closely concerned, so he will correct me if I do not state accurately the effect of the Minister's words.
He said it was realized that there must be an overhaul as soon as possible of the machinery by which the shifting of boundaries as between one local government and another was brought about. He said that he had taken into counsel with him the organized representatives of the different classes of local authorities, such as the great organizations of the county councils and the district councils' associa-

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tions, and so forth. He said, moreover—and this was an interesting revelation—that as a matter of fact he was very much gratified to find what a high degree of unanimity there was as to how improvements should be made. He said that a White Paper was being prepared which would be placed before Parliament as soon as possible. He further said—and I quote his actual words—"It is my earnest hope and belief that the White Paper will be published this side of Christmas." In addition, he said he believed that legislation would follow in the next Session.
The modern method of producing White Papers first and legislation afterwards has its advantages. There is not undue delay, and this I should have thought is a very proper case for the employment of it. The question is whether, in the face of that explanation and assurance, and having regard to the extreme gravity of this matter, not alone to the county of Devon but to all the other counties involved, we should really be well advised to insert in this Bill what my noble friend Viscount Astor now proposes. That declaration was made in the House of Commons after full debate. I turn over the pages of Hansard and I find Mr. Storey saying:
"The assurance which my right honourable friend has given us"—
he was speaking, of course, not for himself alone—
"has gone a very long way to meeting the worst fears from the point of view which we have put forward to-day. In the hope that the phrase 'at the earliest opportunity next Session,' will not be too elastic, and so as to expedite the passage of the Bill, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause."
Well, of course, it is entirely within the power of the House of Lords, if it thinks fit, to reach a separate conclusion. But I would most respectfully suggest that there were very good and solid reasons for the view that was taken in another place, and I would submit to your Lordships that we really ought not to depart from it.
The subject of changing the boundaries of local government areas is no doubt an immensely important subject. It is important in the case of Plymouth and in the case of Sunderland, but surely with a prospect of what I have mentioned being done and done promptly, and by the steps which I have indicated, it would be wrong
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to put into this Bill these special provisions. I could make some comment on the actual proposals in more detail, but I think that my noble friend Lord Astor has, if I may say so, served the interests of the House by saying that he wanted to raise the question broadly, and I have endeavoured to answer him broadly. My submission—and I trust that I may be supported in this—is that greatly as we do respect and sympathize with my noble friend's efforts in the case of Plymouth, we really ought to follow the same course as was followed in the House of Commons.
5.20 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My name was put down to this Amendment, but I thought that it was no use repeating the arguments which my noble friend Lord Astor put with such force. Consequently I reserved my remarks until I had heard what the noble and learned Viscount in charge of the Bill was going to say. I suppose that I ought to refer to the two noble Lords in charge of the Bill, because I take it that the noble and learned Viscount is in the role of the professional driver who handles the ribbons down this rather steep hill, while my noble friend the Minister of Reconstruction is in the position of the owner of the coach, whom we are delighted to see on the box seat. The last thing that I want to do is to hurt my noble friend's feelings, but I had hoped that, with his great interest in reconstruction and planning, we might have had just a toot on the horn from him, as the owner, when on this Amendment we reached what is rather a hairpin bend on the road.
My noble and learned friend made great play with the fact that this proposal was withdrawn in another place by Mr. Storey after he had heard the explanation of the Minister of Health. I will tell the Committee quite candidly that I think that Mr. Storey was a great deal too easily satisfied, and I am not at all prepared to consider the matter as closed because of the assurances which were given by the Minister of Health. My noble and learned friend said very truly that in a question of boundary extension nobody can get any more unless somebody gets a little less. I quite agree, and I can accept the validity of that right away; but in this particular case I think we have to consider a little bit about the little more and the little less.

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In the particular case of Plymouth there is the question of a very large transfer of Plymouth population which, when it goes outside into the open spaces of the county, will create a great deal of rateable value. Plymouth, I believe, has had two experiences of boundary extension. As the Committee knows, there is always compensation on these occasions. On one occasion, if I recollect rightly, Plymouth took in a fairly large area of land where there was not much rateable value, and on that occasion I believe that Plymouth received compensation and did not have to pay it. In the other case, Plymouth having already overrun its boundaries a good deal, there was a good deal of rateable value, and Plymouth had to pay, or still has to pay, compensation to the extent of about £500,000. I do not think that the position of the county council really deserves quite as much consideration in this matter as the position of Plymouth. The attitude of the county council appears to be that it wants to wait until, through the action of Plymouth, its rateable value has extended into the county area, and the county council wants to profit by that at the expense of Plymouth. Is it quite certain that one person has to get what another person loses? Would not it be reasonable, if it is in the national interest (as I suggest that it is) that this planning scheme of Plymouth should be carried out, that the rateable value should still accrue to Plymouth, whose citizens are creating it? I cannot accept for a moment the doubts thrown by the noble and learned Viscount on the theory that population creates rateable value. It really does. If it were not for that fact, I do not think that we should have had such an eloquent speech from the noble Lord who represents the county councils.
LORD DENHAM: I do not represent the county councils at all, but I happen to have been for twenty years or more the President of the Urban District Councils' Association, which is not the same thing. I was speaking on behalf of the smaller local authorities. I should not have ventured to speak on behalf of the County Councils' Association, although I dare say that they would agree with me.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I accept the correction, but that does not alter the fact that the noble Lord made an extremely good speech and a very eloquent plea from the point of view of
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people who are anticipating that if Plymouth does not get this extension a good deal of rateable value will come to them. Is not that right?
LORD DENHAM: No. What I am really seeking to do is to try to protect those local authorities in two respects. There are authorities who may not agree to have parts of their districts taken away by Plymouth or any other big town of a similar kind. Secondly, I want to safeguard the rights of the smaller local authorities under the present system of Private Bill legislation before Parliament.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I quite appreciate my noble friend's point, and it is a strong one. It is not the point I was talking about.
LORD DENHAM: I never mentioned rateable value.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My noble friend did not mention rateable value, but I think that the county councils who are troubled by these proposals of Plymouth are thinking of rateable value. My noble friend is not representing the county councils, and I withdraw what I said about that. I thought he was, but I was mistaken. I do not think, however, that it can be denied that the county councils bordering on Plymouth, in the efforts which they have made to counter this proposal, have rateable value very much in mind, and I do not think that it is fair, if this rateable value is created by the citizens of Plymouth, that Plymouth should not derive advantage from it. If it is to be created by the citizens of Plymouth, then justice is on the side of Plymouth and not on the side of the county council. There have to be boundary adjustments at some time, and we have to be fair. I agree that we want to protect the small local authorities, but they cannot all continue to exist for ever in a state of independence, and under this proposal they would have an opportunity of making their case.
My noble and learned friend mentioned the case of the London County Council, but the case of the London County Council is not comparable at all, having regard to the vast population of the London area compared with the small numbers which go outside. In the case of Plymouth, it is a question of losing 40,000 out of 220,000 inhabitants—25 per cent. of the rateable value, or

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something of that sort—and in that case the difference in magnitude distorts the whole value of the comparison. My noble and learned friend also said that removal does not necessarily reduce rateable value, and that he did not know whether it would in this case. My noble friend Lord Astor does know; he knows the position intimately, and he tells the Committee that it will mean a very serious loss of rateable value to Plymouth. My noble and learned friend spoke in accents of horror of the proposal to create half-a-dozen satellites, some of which were going to be ten miles away from the city, as though that were an appalling proposal. It is in fact one of the chief merits of the plan. He seemed to think it dreadful that these satellites should not be contiguous to the main town of Plymouth.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I hope that my noble friend will allow me to interrupt him and to correct him. He seems sometimes to take a slightly prejudiced view of what I say on these subjects. I said nothing of that kind. I said that before we agreed to .adopt the particular procedure of this clause it was well to realize the sort of case to which it was going to apply. I can well understand that satellites are most excellent arrangements. I do not object at all to their being at a distance from the central city, but in order to judge whether we should adopt this proposal it is well to know that is the nature of this plan and that therefore it involves a very serious invasion of the present county.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I beg my noble and learned friend's pardon if I misrepresented him. I really did not mean to do so. I thought he really was indicating to us that the proposal was one which ought to be most strongly resisted because the satellites were at a little distance from the town and because the surplus population was not to be so contiguous to the town. If that is not what my noble and learned friend said I of course withdraw and apologize. I think the fact that this population has to be decanted somewhere away from the town is the very reason why your Lordships ought to welcome the proposal, and it is the answer to my noble and learned friend's first question. Why is it in this
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Bill? Because it is a Planning Bill and this is the national plan. This is helping Plymouth to plan in the way which great cities ought to be replanned in the future. Plymouth has acquired in the past, as my noble friend opposite said, 4,000 acres of agricultural land and had there been no war, had there been no change in public opinion, Plymouth would have expanded its boundaries to that extent. Now we have got a chance through the war to do something better and Plymouth under the guidance of my noble friend opposite has had the initiative and the energy to produce this plan which I have yet to learn anybody has said is a bad plan. Do my noble and learned friend and noble Lords on the Front Bench say it is a bad plan? Their whole argument is that it does not fit in with the existing arrangements about local government.
They want us to delay. Why cannot we delay? We cannot delay because the matter is urgent and it is on the plea of urgency that I want to press this amendment on your Lordships. The whole Amendment is based on the plea of urgency. It says:
"Within two years of the coming into force of tins Act any county borough or borough which has suffered material damage as a result of enemy action shall have the right to make representations to the Minister stating that without a revision of the boundaries of any such county borough or borough, it is not possible to carry into effect an adequate scheme for the planning and redevelopment of the said county borough or borough."
It is urgency due to the war. It cannot he allowed to wait on the passing of some large new Local Government Act. The Minister of Health said in another place that he is talking with representatives of the local authorities and that he is going to produce a White Paper. Talking with representatives of local authorities is one thing, producing a White Paper is another thing, and producing a Local Government Act is a third thing and a very different thing. Legislation is not going to be passed next Session. The Minister of Health talks about producing legislation next Session, but he is a very young Minister—
LORD WOOLTON: No, no.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Well, I withdraw that if that is insulting to the Minister of Health, but he has not had an enormous amount of experience of dealing with local authorities and I am

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entitled to place on record my opinion that that legislation will not pass both Houses of Parliament in the next Session of Parliament There is no reason therefore to prevent this permissive clause going into the Bill. Just look at it. The clause is an emergency measure limited to two years. It leaves complete control under the Minister of Health. It is permissive. It requires the assent of both Houses of Parliament and by some extraordinary reasoning my noble friend behind me made that a fault. I did not follow him in that. I think the fact that it has to have a permissive Resolution of both Houses of Parliament is a great thing. I certainly think the clause ought by all means to find a place in this Bill and if my noble friend opposite goes to a Division I shall certainly support him.
5.35 p.m.
THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: I rise to support this Amendment because it takes into account, which the Bill does not. I think, the desperate condition that some of the "blitzed" and blighted cities find themselves in. They have already built up over all the area that belongs to them. The noble Viscount, Lord Astor, and other speakers have put forward what in my opinion were irrefutable arguments for inserting this clause in the Bill as a matter of urgency. The noble Viscount below me told us about that city for which so much been done by himself and his family. I am going to speak on behalf of Portsmouth which, in common with Plymouth and Southampton, suffered so much damage. Perhaps no city has suffered such damage as have these great naval ports. The position of Portsmouth is exceedingly difficult because the major part of the city studs upon Portsea Island. Old Portsmouth was a fortified town surrounded by walls and in the course of time, with dockyard extension and the like, it naturally became overcrowded and remained so for many years. When it was a walled and fortified city there were great restrictions on building in order to preserve a clear field of fire. Outside the ramparts the city could not extend and with the enlargement of the dockyard a great many people came into that small city and had to live within it because there were no facilities outside such a there are to-day. Since the restrictions I have referred to were removed Ports-
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mouth has extended in all directions and the main land area within the city boundary has already been built over.
Portsmouth is now built up to its boundary with the exception of one small estate of about 200 acres. The old parts of the city remained and in spite of the efforts of an enlightened municipality these gradually carne to be, in Lord Latham's graphic words, overbuilt areas, slum areas, decaying areas, and obsolete areas. Now these are all blended in heaps of rubble. The silver lining to the cloud of suffering endured by the citizens of Portsmouth is the opportunity created to rebuild their city in a fashion worthy of the fortitude of its people. The need to rebuild is acute because a large number of the citizens are at present homeless. The city council is now ready with its plan which has been approved by the Ministries concerned. This plan provides in full measure for all those social amenities which the Minister enunciated as being necessary to an up-to-date city. The pre-war population of Portsmouth was 260,000 and the accepted plans provide for 200,000, so that there is an overspill of 60,000 to be provided for elsewhere. To accommodate this number the city council has already acquired two sites, one situated well outside the boundary, the other at the small town of Waterlooville. It is proposed to build a new town of 35,000 inhabitants at Leigh Park which will have all the arrangements necessary for a happy and healthy community life. At Waterlooville, which will be known to many of your Lordships who drive into Portsmouth, there is already a population of 15,000 largely dependent upon Portsmouth for their living.
That is how the matter now stands. Portsmouth is an outstanding example of "blitz" and blight and it is ready with an approved plan with which it cannot proceed, urgent as the need is, because financially the city authorities cannot see their way clear ahead. You cannot ask a city to rebuild itself on modern lines and at the same time develop two satellite towns for its surplus population unless those towns are enclosed within the city area so as to secure the financial future of the city. That cannot be done if Portsmouth has to get rid of thirty per cent. of its population and settle them in districts where the rates go to other authorities. If that is to be the case you cannot

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ask Portsmouth to carry out its plan. The need is urgent and unless the city can see its way ahead financially how can you expect the city authorities to proceed? They cannot do so.
This Bill is presented to the House with a plea for urgency. Conditions as they stand prevent this urgent situation being dealt with in these special cases. The noble Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, said that you have to take away from one and give to another. But this is a question of seven particularly afflicted cities. Of course you have to take away from the people who are not so afflicted and give it to those who have borne the affliction. You do that in the case of everything. If you pension a man you take the money out of somebody's pocket to give it to him. This Amendment does provide a means of dealing with a very urgent situation. It shows how the matter can be dealt with and the means of doing so, and I sincerely hope your Lordships will accept it.
5.41 p.m.
LORD LATHAM: There will be few of us who will not be appreciative of the difficulties facing the "blitzed" cities, and I especially so, because one of them, Norwich, is my native city. I am as acutely aware of the extent of the damage that has been done to that city as I am of the extent of the damage that has been done to other cities, including the city of Plymouth. But I really doubt whether this is the best way of solving this problem. Heavy as may be the load cast upon the "blitzed" cities, that of itself is really not a reason why you should, without proper consideration, deal with the alteration of local government boundaries. Nor is it proper if you are to get a tidy set-up of local government in this country—and nothing is more necessary than that we should get it—that you should proceed to adjust boundaries by reference to seven particular cities. I observe also that the clause is to be limited to county and non-county boroughs. It is true that the seven cities referred to are county boroughs. As the result of the flying bomb activities in the last few months there are many urban district councils in or near bomb alley which have suffered severe damage and have large areas of devastation, but, under this Amendment, they would have
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no claim to have their boundaries adjusted.
I do not wish to go in detail into the finance of moving people from one district to another. We are not without some experience of moving people from London. Courageous as we may have been in many respects, we have never yet had the courage to ask that because we moved them to Dagenham we should bring Dagenham within the area of the County of London. I do venture to offer this comment, that whilst it may well be, on a long view, that taking people from one area to another results in the receiving area getting rateable value, it cannot be contended, from our experience, that it is profitable to the receiving area for many years. I remember before I was on the County Council, but when I was a member of the Hendon Borough Council, the building of the Watling Estate by the London County Council. They brought some 20,000 people to Hendon. It was not profitable to Hendon. One of the first results was that it doubled their education rate. On the footing, as was the case, that the assessable value of the average house on the Watling Estate—and there were between 4,000 and 5,000—was £26, and on the footing that the rate was about 10s. in the pound (which was the case at that time), the rate income from each of those houses was £13 a year. So if there were two children in a house going to school the education authority of Hendon spent the whole of that £13 on their education with no contribution at all to any of the other services—the maintenance of roads, the lighting of streets, the provision of medical inspection, the provision of clinics, and all that kind of thing. To those services there was no contribution at all; and it used to be the standing complaint of one area of Hendon that it was paying for the support of the Watling Estate in the other area—and there was some justification for that statement, although not always for the epithets accompanying it.
So when you are judging whether the coming of a population to an area creates rateable value—which obviously it does—you must take into account, in measuring that rateable value, what the social services will cost you to provide for the additional population. I myself really think—and Lord Astor will I am sure admit this; I indicated it to

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him privately—that this Bill not the appropriate Bill for dealing with the adjustment of boundaries. The adjustment of boundaries is a matter of local government, and if there is to be any adjustment—as I hope there will be from the pronouncement of the Minister of Health—it will have to be by amending the existing law of local government and not by the inclusion of a clause of this kind in this Bill.
I do beg my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh to remember this, as I am sure he will, that it is no good having this clause or any other clause in this Bill or any other Bill unless you can get the general consent of the various authorities, especially those who have got to concede territory. It is easy to get the consent of those who are to receive it. It is less easy to get the consent of those who are to concede it. I hope that within a short time the Minister of Health will be able to bring into existence an effective, fairly speedy machine, which will permit of a general adjustment of local government boundaries which is so urgently necessary for the proper functioning of local government. I much regret that on this occasion I cannot support the Amendment moved by my noble friend Viscount Astor.
5.49 p.m.
LORE WOOLTON: I would like, if I may, to say a few words. The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, said he would like to hear, I think he said, a "toot" from me. I do not know that I am capable of anything more than a "toot" at the moment. I have been so interested in this problem that I would like to tell you the conclusions at which I have arrived. I like, whenever it is possible—because it does your credit good and it makes you feel better—to be on the side of the angels, and therefore I always like to support Lord Astor when I can, as it seems to me that he almost invariably is on the side of the angels. If he will forgive ray talking of a private conversation, he came to see me one day some time ago and he told me of this position regarding Plymouth. I have heard that one story is good until another is told, and the truth is that I was carried away by the sincerity of the noble Viscount and by his obvious desire (which I share) to get this Plymouth plan through, and I committed myself
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to paper quite extensively on his behalf. Then I heard the other side of the story. I have come to the conclusion that the noble Viscount is probably wrong, and I have come to that conclusion for one or two reasons.
Let us be quite clear about this. We are not discussing whether the Plymouth plan is a good plan: that is all right. What we are discussing, I think, is whether the noble Viscount is going to be able to persuade the Corporation of Plymouth to carry this plan out if they cannot go and take in a lot of other places that do not want to he taken in. Now those places have a right to be heard. They have made considerable protests about this enforced extension of Plymouth. This is precisely the situation that is happening in a very large number of places in this country at the present time. County boroughs have decided that it would be a very useful thing for them to take in rural district councils. Rural districts are protesting against it, and it is because His Majesty's Government have had these considerable demands of local authorities to be allowed to grow bigger, sometimes, as in the case of Plymouth, for the most excellent reasons and sometimes for reasons that are not quite so good, that my right honourable friend Mr. Willink, after a long consultation with his colleagues, decided that this was an issue that we had better not face in a patchwork manner. I am sure that that fact at any rate will appeal to the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh. That we should have national planning in arranging boundaries is surely a good thing. That is what my right honourable friend proposes.
The issue that you are faced with is whether the urgency of the replanning of Plymouth and the other places mentioned is so great that it is going to be held up. But all virtue does not rest on your side. We too are anxious about this; we are anxious that these places should be replanned, we are anxious that there should be no delay. I hesitate always, and I always shall, to make any promises about what will happen to a White Paper. Once is enough. This I can say: I have seen the White Paper. I can say that my right honourable friend is most anxious to get it through his colleagues in the Cabinet (in which I shall help him) and to get it published this year. He is also

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very anxious that legislation should be forthcoming with great speed, and I do not think it will be heavily contested legislation. I have one other thing to say. When that Boundary Commission is formed it is our intention, and I give you this assurance, that these particular towns in which you are so interested shall have preference; that the Boundary Commission shall be instructed to deal with them first. But let us deal with this great question of local government as a whole. Do not let us deal with it in a patchwork manner, and I believe in point of fact that the amount of delay that will be occasioned will be very small. I say again that I should regret to find myself going into another Lobby from Lord Astor, but in view of the assurances that the Government have given in another place, and which my noble and learned friend and I have given here, I hope we shall not go into any Lobbies at all.
5.55 p.m.
VISCOUNT ASTOR: I find myself in a very difficult position. When in another place on a Government statement of policy a promise of future legislation was made, those who put forward a somewhat similar Amendment to this withdrew it. My difficulty is that the seven cities concerned have all considered that promise and have the fullest desire and hope that the Minister will carry his promise into effect; but they are faced with the fact that they have to take commitments, that however good the intentions of the Government may be other things may happen, legislation may be held up. And it was after consideration of the statement in another place that the planning committees of all these seven cities unanimously asked me to move this Amendment.
I am very sorry in some way that so much of the debate has turned on Plymouth. I explained that it was easier for me to illustrate the matter by the case of Plymouth, though I had materials from the other places. The most reverend Prelate the Archbishop of York was going to speak on behalf of one of the northern cities, but unfortunately was unable to do so, but I am glad to say that the noble and gallant Earl, Lord Cork, spoke on behalf of another city. We do not in any way question the good intentions of the Minister of Health; but I believe there is
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a White Paper about land: was not that intended to be implemented by legislation? The debate to-day has indicated that there is a certain amount of controversy associated with boundary revision. Publication of a white Paper, however good the intentions of the Government may be, does not necessarily mean that we shall immediately have a Statute, and it is a Statute, not a promise, which these local authorities require if they are to take commitments. I have explained that whenever I have taken part in this debate I have tried to speak from the point of view of someone who is a member of a local authority trying to plan. It is all very well for noble Lords to tell us that we shall not lose anything. All the men who are responsible in these cities take an entirely different view from the Government. The noble Lord, Lord Latham, spoke on behalf of the London County Council, and so did a noble Lord opposite. But the problems of a provincial city stand in an entirely different category from those of London.
LORD LATHAM: I did not speak on behalf of the London County Council. I expressed, as I am entitled to do, my own personal view in your Lordships' House.
VISCOUNT ASTOR: I am very sorry. Well, some noble Lord opposite quoted the case of London. In the case of London, with its millions of population, if a few people are taken from the poorer districts that is entirely different from the case of a city with 200,000 or 300,000 inhabitants, which loses something like 20 per cent, of its population. So I do not think it is quite fair to put forward what happens in London in order to negative a proposal from a provincial city. What I want to emphasize is that if you extend the boundary before you carry out the development you do not have to pay compensation, whereas if you try to develop and then extend the boundary afterwards you have to pay heavy compensation. And it is because the city treasurers of these cities are compelled to visualize an extension of boundary that they have urged us to press this Amendment. I am in the hands of your Lordships. If it is obvious that there is going to be an overwhelming majority against us I do not think it is worth while pressing the Amendment to a Division.

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But I do venture to tell the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, who is interested in reconstruction and replanning, that it would be a calamity if the plans, which are admittedly good plans, cannot be implemented because adequate legislation does not follow.
6.0 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: As the noble Viscount has said that he is in some doubt whether to go to a Division I would venture to urge him not to go to a Division on this occasion. If he did it would put many of us in considerable difficulty. For my own part I have been advocating the urgency of an adjustment of boundaries to enable great cities to plan for an area which will fulfil the needs of present-day life, and I have also been as active as I could in protesting against delay and in urging that, to use the shocking jargon which has come into use, a great city ought not to "decant" the "overspill" into the "sprawl." For the Plymouth plan, which I have studied, I have the greatest admiration, and I
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would not like it to be thought that any vote of mine was given in hostility or was detrimental to that plan, but I think the arguments of Lord Latham and others are conclusive that this is not the way to achieve the end in view. The Government have once more hoisted the White Paper and perhaps they might be allowed to retreat under its cover.
VISCOUNT ASTOR: The Government have really granted our case—namely, that there ought to be revision of boundaries. I have the noble Lord's promise and I earnestly hope he will see that it is implemented. Therefore I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: My Lords, I should like to say that the House will meet at twelve noon to-morrow.
House adjourned at three minutes past six o'clock.