Sitting of 16 May 1944

PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BILLS [Lords]

  STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table,—Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
  People's Dispensary for Sick Animals of the Poor Bill [Lords].
  Bill to be read a Second time.

  PETITION FOR ADDITIONAL PROVISION (STANDING ORDERS NOT COMPLIED WITH)
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table,—Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the Petition for additional Provision in the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:
  Derwent Valley Water Bill [Lords].
  Report referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  ITALIAN PRISONERS OF WAR
  Mr. Wakefieldasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that Italian prisoners of war have their boots collected by motor-cyclists, repaired within 48 hours and returned by motorcyclists; and is he satisfied that this is a desirable use of man-power and petrol.
  The Secretary of State for War (Sir James Grigg): The answer to the first part of the Question is, No, Sir. If my hon. Friend will send me particulars of the cases he has in mind, they will be investigated.
  Mr. Wakefield: I have given considerable notice to the right hon. Gentleman, and he has not even asked me for this information. Surely he ought to know what is going on in his Department?
  Sir J. Grigg: Yes, Sir; and I can find nothing that is going on that is reconcilable with the information that appeared in the "Daily Herald" on Monday.
  Mr. Wakefield: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.
  Mr. G. Straussasked the Secretary of State for War whether any special restrictions have been imposed on those Italian prisoners of war in this country who have volunteered to fight with the allied forces.
  Wing-Commander Hulbertasked the Secretary of State for War if he will consider the formation of non-combatant units of Italian prisoners of war in this country in order to relieve British troops for other duties.
  Sir J. Grigg: I would refer the hon. Member and the hon. and gallant Member to the reply I gave last Tuesday to my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. I. Thomas). These arrangements will enable Italian prisoners of war, who are anxious to do so, to join most effectively in the common war effort.
  Mr. G. Strauss: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why these volunteers should not be an integral part now of the Allied Forces and have all the rights and liberties of men in foreign units here, or Germans in the Pioneer Corps?
  Sir J. Grigg: Because at present co-belligerency is not precisely on all fours with Allied status.

  BRITISH ARMY

    Home Guard
    Colonel Burtonasked the Secretary of State for War whether he can indicate the equipment issued to nominated women in the Home Guard.
    Sir J. Grigg: I assume my hon. and gallant Friend refers to personal equipment. The answer, in that case, is, None, Sir.
    Colonel Burton: If these women are subject to the same risks as the armed Home Guard, should they not have tin hats?
    Sir J. Grigg: I would not admit, for a moment, that they are subject to the same risks as the armed Home Guard.
    Mr. Liddallasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that for the efficient carrying out of essential operations extra transport facilities are urgently required by the Home Guard; and will he consider the allocation to them of some of the heavier motor vehicles discarded as obsolete for general use, but which the Home Guard themselves could recondition and use effectively.
    Sir J. Grigg: The vehicles issued to Home Guard units are, I understand, in
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    general, adequate to carry out their duties. In special cases, they may call upon War Department vehicles or hire civilian transport. Arrangements have also been made to augment the transport of Home Guard units in the event of active operations. I do not consider that any further measures need be taken at present.
    Mr. Liddall: Is my right hon. Friend not aware that there is a very large number of men who are competent and anxious to carry out this work? Cannot they be given permission, as well as units of the Home Guard which require transport?
    Sir J. Grigg: I am well aware of that, but there are other activities going on in the country at the present moment for which transport is required.
    Mr. Liddallasked the Secretary of State for War whether, consistently with the national interest, he can make any statement as to the future role of the Home Guard.
    Sir J. Grigg: My hon. Friend will understand that at the present time, even if it were possible, it would be extremely unwise to make any such statement.
    Mr. Edgar Granvilleasked the Secretary of State for War if he is satisfied that agricultural workers who are members of the Home Guard and who are working long hours and will be expected to attend to special parades and invasion duties will be supplied with adequate rations in order to enable them to carry out these heavy and responsible tasks during the coming invasion period.
    Sir J. Grigg: I understand that the arrangements made are satisfactory.
    Mr. Granville: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that this satisfactory arrangement will apply, not to the allowances for rations, but to the actual rations; and will he bear in mind the fact that the agricultural worker has long hours, and has no N.A.A.F.I., or industrial canteen or British Restaurant?
    Sir J. Grigg: I understand that arrangements are made to provide rations in kind.
    Mr. Granville rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Mrs. Hardie.
    Mr. Granville: I beg to give notice that, in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply I will raise this matter again on the Motion for the Adjournment.
    Sir J. Grigg: I was not given an opportunity of replying to the supplementary question, but there is another Question on the Order Paper by another hon. Member, and perhaps the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Granville) will wait for that.
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that pieces of cheese weighing as little as a quarter of an ounce each have lately been issued to various Home Guard units in Essex, each piece to serve as rations for a dozen or more men; and if he will take steps to issue more adequate rations to Home Guards.
    Sir J. Grigg: The arrangements in force provide that Home Guard units may buy from their subsistence allowance one day's rationed foodstuffs on the civilian scale for each of their members for each day in which the member concerned is on duty for more than six hours. This of course is in addition to the rationed foods to which the man is entitled at home. The balance of the subsistence allowance is available for the purchase of unrationed foods. I have heard of some cases where, owing to a misunderstanding, these arrangements were not properly carried out but I hope there will be no difficulty in future.
    Mr. Driberg: If men are away from home for considerable periods of time, is it not rather unfair that they should be limited to these very meagre rations, and if I send the right hon. Gentleman one of these infinitesimal particles of cheese, will he nibble at it?
    Sir J. Grigg: Metaphorically, yes, but, as I have explained, the infinitesimal portion of cheese to which the hon. Member refers was issued as a result of a misunderstanding of the Regulations.
    Mr. Edgar Granville: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it absolutely clear that the Home Guard are not getting allowances, but rations?
    Sir J. Grigg: They are getting the normal rations; they are also getting allowances from which they can purchase additional food over and above their rations.
    Mr. Driberg: Without coupons?
    Mr. Loverseed: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if these rations were intended for mice or men?
    Sir J. Grigg: The hon. Member knows that as well as I do.

    Barbed Wire (Removal)
    Rear-Admiral Beamishasked the Secretary of State for War what steps are being taken, or are proposed, for the removal of barbed wire erected in private gardens in towns and villages early in the war and which is now unnecessary and a nuisance to the owners of the properties concerned, who have neither labour nor the capacity to remove the wire.
    Sir J. Grigg: When barbed-wire defences are no longer operationally necessary, the War Department notifies those concerned, and, in accordance with its liability under the Defence Regulations, agrees the compensation due under the Compensation (Defence) Act. I realise that it is difficult for those concerned to find the labour to remove the wire, but I regret that, owing to the general shortage of labour, the War Department would not, as a rule, be in any better position to do so. But in some cases, where the wire constitutes a serious obstacle to the production of food, special arrangements can be made to have the wire removed.
    Rear-Admiral Beamish: Will the right hon. Gentleman do something towards clearing up this difficulty of co-operating with the local authorities, so that they may be able to appeal to the War Office for the removal of this wire?
    Sir J. Grigg: As I explained in ria7 answer, I am doing my best about this matter, but it is a very limited best. I am very sorry, but I certainly cannot undertake to make any arrangements whereby the War Office can provide labour on application.
    Rear-Admiral Beamish: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I was referring only to such wire as is quite obviously a nuisance?
    Sir J. Grigg: Even that would require more labour than I could possibly provide at present.
    Mr. Reakes: Do the municipal authorities concerned know, definitely, that they

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    have power to remove this unsightly and dangerous barbed wire, if they are in a position to do so?
    Sir J. Grigg: I think they have power to remove it, only when the land has been re-requisitioned. Perhaps the hon. Member will let me have an opportunity of looking into the question of whether some sort of notification to local authorities is desirable.
    Mr. Thorne: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a good many children grow flowers in the gardens, and that the barbed wire will not keep them out? Personally, I think it is very dangerous.
    Sir J. Grigg: The wire was not originally intended to keep children out, but Germans.

    "Union Jack" (Mr. William Connor)
    Captain Longhurstasked the Secretary of State for War in what capacity Mr. William Connor, formerly writer of the "Daily Mirror" column signed "Cassandra," is now serving in His Majesty's Army.
    Sir J. Grigg: He is employed with the British Army newspaper unit in Naples, and works for the Army newspaper "Union Jack."
    Captain Longhurst: Does not my right hon. Friend think it rather extraordinary that a man whose writings Are described by a former Home Secretary as being subversive to the war effort, and which were the material cause of the "Daily Mirror" being warned in 1941, should he writing the same sort of thing in the Army?
    Sir J. Grigg: I think the whole question is begged by the last phrase in the supplementary. He is not writing the same sort of thing, and the senior officers on the spot have made no complaint about his work.
    Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Is Mr. Frank Owen still writing, in the Far East, the same sort of thing that he used to write in the "Sunday Express"?
    Mr. Bellenger: Has my right hon. Friend read the articles which Mr. Connor is writing in "Union jack," which are certainly not subversive, but quite the contrary? They help to improve the morale of the troops out there.
    Sir J. Grigg: I think that that is covered by my last remarks.
    Mr. Pritt: Will the right hon. Gentleman not get a few more journalists into the Army?

    Drowning Accident (Essex Regiment)
    Mr. Thorneasked the Secretary of State for War if he can give any information in connection with seven soldiers belonging to the Essex Regiment who were drowned while swimming in tidal water a few days ago; and can he say what was the rank of the soldiers.
    Sir J. Grigg: I regret that I have no information about this accident. Perhaps the hon. Member can give me some information which will enable me to trace it.

    Firing Practice (Safety Precautions)
    Rear-Admiral Beamishasked the Secretary of State for War if he will now report upon his investigations concerning the falling of machine-gun and other projectiles into an area of which he has been informed; and what action he is taking to prevent a recurrence of this danger to life and property.
    Sir J. Grigg: I much regret these incidents to which my hon. and gallant Friend has drawn my attention. I am expecting a full report about them shortly. From the information I have at present, it seems that the firing took place in areas where it was permitted to take place, but that some of the projectiles accidentally fell outside those areas. The safety precautions for all these areas are, however, now being carefully reviewed, to ensure that they are as strict and as foolproof as possible. Some alterations have already been introduced, and if, as a result of the inquiry into the Steyning incident, more prove to be necessary, they will certainly be made.
    Rear-Admiral Beamish: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that only the day before yesterday a man was seriously injured by a falling shell in Lewes, and that several other serious casualties took place within a few miles of Lewes? Cannot he hold out some hope that these incidents will be checked by the Council over which he presides?
    Sir J. Grigg: I understand that my right hon. Friend the Member for

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    Horsham and Worthing (Earl Winterton) has a Private Notice Question down about the later incident. I have said that I will do my best to stop these incidents.
    Later—
    Earl Winterton(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for War if he will order an immediate inquiry into the circumstances which resulted in casualties and damage to property in the town of Steyning, Sussex, by artillery fire, on Sunday, 14th May, and if he will cause a review to be made, as a result of this occurrence, of the regulations for ensuring the safety of the public from the consequences of military exercises in certain areas of which he has been informed.
    Sir J. Grigg: I very much regret that this tragic accident should have occurred and take this opportunity to express my sympathy with the relatives of the victims. A Court of Inquiry was immediately convened, but the results are not yet available. On the results of the Court of Inquiry, the safety regulations will be carefully investigated with a view to preventing any possible recurrence of such an unfortunate incident. As I said earlier in reply to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lewes (Rear-Admiral Beamish) some alterations had already been made which it was hoped would prevent such accidents.
    Earl Winterton: In view of certain information which I conveyed to my right hon. Friend, privately, does he not think it desirable before the Court has reported to consider the whole position of the safety of the public in these areas, and will he bear in mind that we in Sussex have been under considerable tension not only due to enemy action but to fatuous propaganda not encouraged by the War Cabinet, in that for the past eight months we have been told that zero hour is imminent and that invasion is coming?
    Sir J. Grigg: Certainly, I hope steps have already been taken, or are being taken, which will deal with the matter on an interim basis. As a result of the Court of Inquiry further consideration will be given to the matter.
    Sir Herbert Williams: Why was it impossible for the civil authorities to get in touch with the military? Was it due to unnecessary secrecy imposed in relation to telephoning?
    Sir J. Grigg: I did not know of that particular incident but I should have thought there was one fairly obvious explanation of it.
    Mr. Bellenger: Am I right in assuming that this will be a military Court of Inquiry held by military officers? If so, is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to receive information from civil witnesses, in view of the questions which have just been put from the Front Bench?
    Sir J. Grigg: It certainly is a military Court of Inquiry and I am certainly prepared myself to forward to the court any information that may be brought to my notice.
    Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward: Is it not a fact that several of these training areas are now unsafe owing to the long range of modern guns?
    Mr. Edgar Granville: When making the inquiries, will the right hon. Gentleman see that the regulations are tightened up in regard to red flag signals in the vicinity of battle centres, because this is not the first occurrence of this kind?
    Rear-Admiral Beamish: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the great difficulty which has occurred in the past month—during which he has had warning from me—is that, when these things happen, the local people endeavour to get into contact with the military authorities, and neither through the police nor the Home Guard are they ever able to do so, and the firing continues and so do the casualties?
    Sir J. Grigg: I hope that particular difficulty is not a lasting one. I will consider whether the regulations sufficiently cover that.
    Sir Irving Albery: Would communication with the Regional Commissioner be effective?

    Protected Areas (Cricket Matches)
    Flight-Lieutenant Teelingasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that professional cricketers can enter the restricted area of Brighton and Hove on their professional business, he will also allow amateur cricketers who are members of the same teams as professionals to take part in matches in the restricted area;

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    and whether he is aware that the difficulty of obtaining wholly professional elevens will force the Sussex County Cricket Association to abandon all fixtures unless some such relaxation of the rule is allowed.
    Sir J. Grigg: Among the classes of persons who are permitted to enter a protected area are "persons engaged or employed on necessary business which cannot be deferred, and which they cannot transact or carry on otherwise than by entering that protected area." The question whether any particular person comes within the terms of that permission depends on the individual circumstances, and could, in the last resort, only be authoritatively determined by a court of law. But, however the rule may affect individuals, I regret that I could not properly make a special concession in favour of cricketers as a class.
    Flight-Lieutenant Teeling: Surely voluntary workers assisting the Services, without being paid, are allowed to enter the restricted areas? Will my right hon. Friend not consider whether these cricketers, especially in first-class cricket, do not come within the same category?
    Sir J. Grigg: The interpretation of these Regulations is a matter for the local police, in the first place, and I certainly would not dream of making any general pronouncement on these matters.
    Mr. A. Hopkinson: Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that these regulations will not interfere with the activities of the dog racing racket and of the national black market, whose headquarters are in that area?
    Mr. Petherick: Will my right hon. Friend warn the cricketing authorities not to hold the Gentlemen v. Players match at Brighton this year, in view of the fact that the Players, apparently, are allowed to go down and the Gentlemen are not?

    Personnel, India (Return Home)
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Secretary of State for War what are the present arrangements for the return to Home Establishment of men serving in India who have been overseas for extended periods without leave.
    Sir J. Grigg: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) on 28th March. In, some cases, the men concerned are at present engaged in active operations, and it must be left to the discretion of the local military authorities to withdraw them when it is possible to do so.
    Mr. Bellenger: Has my right hon. Friend observed that, in the Royal Air Force, a much more moderate period of service overseas is required before a man can go home; and can my right hon. Friend at least equate the Army with the Royal Air Force in this respect, as the present difference causes considerable dissatisfaction in the Army?
    Sir J. Grigg: I will certainly try to make Army conditions at least as favourable as those in the Royal Air Force, but, for various reasons which have been given from time to time in this House, it is not possible to do it very quickly or at present.
    Mr. Mathers: In view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman dragged in India when I asked him about Middle East men getting leave, will he now add the Middle East to his observations and bring them up to date, and say what the prospects are for the men in the Middle East?
    Mr. John Dugdale: Will the Minister say that the difficulty of transport is one of the difficulties; and, if it is, will he consult the Secretary of State of Air with a view to sharing such transport as is available?
    Sir J. Grigg: That is one of the difficulties, but not the only one, and the number of people concerned in the Royal Air Force is very much smaller than that concerned in the Army.

    Medal Ribbons (Next-of-Kin)
    Major-General Sir Alfred Knoxasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in the case of a man killed by enemy action, pending the issue of a medal, the appropriate ribbon, with permission to wear, will be issued to the next-of-kin.
    Sir J. Grigg: This point was dealt with in the Debate on medals on 22nd March, when my right hon. Friend the Secretary

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    of State for Air explained that medals and ribbons would not be issued to next-of-kin of deceased recipients until after the war, but that the issue of an official notification as a memento is under consideration.
    Sir A. Knox: Is it not possible to reconsider that decision, as the gift of an award would be a great solace to these people?
    Sir J. Grigg: It was made quite clear that it would not be possible to give medals until after the war, but, in any case, questions of this sort concern all three Services, and possibly others as well, and I could not possibly make any sort of unilateral decision on the matter.
    Mr. Tinker: Could the Minister not consider the feelings of the relatives and give a little solace to them?
    Sir J. Grigg: I am sorry, but it is not for me to give any unilateral decision on this matter.
    Sir A. Knox: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that we are not asking for a medal, but for the ribbon?

    Confidential Reports on Officers
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Secretary of State for War if he will take the necessary steps to ensure that all officers should see and initial any reports submitted on them.
    Sir J. Grigg: Existing instructions make it clear that officers shall see and initial all confidential reports which are of an adverse nature or which recommend a change of employment. If my hon. Friend knows of cases where this has not been done, I will gladly have them looked into if he will send me particulars.
    Mr. Leach: Does this practice extend to non-commissioned officers??
    Sir J. Grigg: I would like notice of that question.

    Overseas Service (Age Limit)
    Mrs. Hardieasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that on 8th December, 1942, a pledge was given by the Minister of Labour that men serving in the Army would not be sent overseas below the age of 19 years; and why that pledge is now to be broken.
    Sir J. Grigg: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave last Tuesday to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for The Hartlepools (Colonel Greenwell). The reasons for this step were then set out.
    Mrs. Hardie: May I ask if the Secretary of State is aware that that reply does not cover the point I put in my Question, which was that the Minister of Labour, in bringing forward this legislation, stated that it was intended to give boys longer training, and definitely pledged himself that no boy would be sent overseas under 19 years of age? The question I want to ask is—Why should that pledge have been broken without the consent of the House?
    Sir J. Grigg: I certainly consulted the Minister of Labour before making the announcement which I have made, and also my other colleagues.
    Mr. Ballenger: Is the Minister aware that, as my hon. Friend has stated, a definite pledge was given that this House would be consulted on this matter, and is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in the last war, there was a great deal of dissatisfaction among the older soldiers at having young lads side by side with them in battle?
    Sir J. Grigg: This step, I can assure the hon. Member, was not taken lightly, and my last answer was intended to inform the House. If the hon. Member will look up the statement of the Minister of Labour, I think he will find that it is not in the categorical terms which he suggests.
    Mrs. Hardie: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that, on a previous occasion when the age was reduced, the Prime Minister came to the House and asked permission? Why was that not done in this case?
    Sir J. Grigg: I thought I was, in giving that last answer, consulting the House.
    Mr. Stokes: Gestapo methods.

    Discharge Certificates (Wording)
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Secretary of State for War whether the term "Services no longer required" is still being inserted in discharge certificates of soldiers leaving the Army with a clean conduct sheet; and, if so, why.
    Sir J. Grigg: Most soldiers discharged because their services are "no longer required for the purpose for which they enlisted" are those for whom no suitable employment in the Army can be found. Such a discharge carries no reflection as to the man's moral character.
    Sir T. Moore: Will my right hon. Friend agree that there is a certain stigma attaching to, or implied in, this phrase, that it did not apply to soldiers in the past, and that the civilian community do not understand that it means nothing? Will the Minister please reconsider it?
    Sir J. Grigg: In point of fact, at the instance of the hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth (Mr. Petherick) I considered this question at considerable length some time ago. All sorts of alternatives were explored, but objections could be taken to all of them, and I may say if it will be of benefit to the individual concerned, the cause for discharge is in fact amplified on his discharge document.
    Sir T. Moore: I agree, but will the right hon. Gentleman not consider excluding it altogether, and merely state why the soldier was discharged?
    Sir J. Grigg: That was one of the alternatives explored. It is not possible to adopt it without doing, in some cases, more damage than is done by the present practice.
    Mr. Pritt: Is it not a fact that this formula deprives a man of his post-war credit; and, if so, could not some steps be taken to alter it?
    Sir J. Grigg: I should be extremely surprised to discover that this formula has the slightest effect on a man's post-war credit.
    Mr. Bellenger: It has.

    Overseas Forces (Newspapers)
    Sir Richard Aclandasked the Secretary of State for War whether he can give an assurance that editors and staff of newspapers printed and circulating among the Forces overseas have full liberty to print what they believe will most interest their readers provided that they give no information to the enemy and discuss no matters that should be raised through normal military channels and that no instruction or advice to a contrary sense has been sent to such editors directly or indirectly through their superior officers.
    Sir J. Grigg: As I stated in my reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Chester (Major Nield) on 15th February I should desire to interfere as little as possible with these Army newspapers so long as this is compatible with the status of an official Army newspaper. Their editors are obviously and necessarily subject to the general control of the commands in which they are published, but this control is exercised as lightly as possible. No restrictive instructions have been issued on the publication of news. As regards the publication of views, editors have been told that they must avoid support of any political party and that on all issues every effort must be made in leading articles to present fairly and fully both sides of the question, and to leave judgment to the decision of the reader rather than to endeavour to lead opinion by a partial presentation of the facts.

    Middle East Forces (Political Discussions)
    Mr. Prittasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the Public Relations Department of G.H.Q., M.E.F., stopped war correspondents from sending any messages relating to the Forces Parliament on and for some time after 28th April; what reason there was for this behaviour; and whether he will instruct the officials concerned to deal more reasonably with such matters.
    Mr. Hugh Lawsonasked the Secretary of State for War how many meetings of the Forces Parliament in Cairo have been held since it was converted from a public into a private assembly; and what has been the average attendance at these meetings.
    Sir J. Grigg: So far as my information now goes the position is as follows: The so-called Cairo Parliament was organised at a recreational centre known as "Music for All." The primary concern of this centre is the provision of music but debates were also held. These debates were attended by British Services personnel and also by members of the U.S.A. and Polish Forces, and civilians of different nationalities. Although up to the final meeting in "Music for All" proceedings had been conducted in an orderly manner—[Interruption]—perhaps I ought to have said "harmonious"—there was always if not an actual breach, at any rate a continuing risk of a breach of King's

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    Regulations and it was certainly known that the Germans had used these meetings for propaganda purposes, suggesting that there had been mutiny. In view of these facts it was decided, in my view quite properly, by the local Commander that the discussions should in future take place under official military control in the same way as A.B.C.A. discussions invariably take place and that civilians should be excluded. The communication of this decision to the meeting of the mock parliament was received by protests led by a private in the R.A.P.C. and a member of the R.A.F. After full consideration of all the circumstances the local Commanders decided not to take disciplinary action against the individuals concerned. I regret that I have no information about the number of meetings or the attendances since these new arrangements were made. As regards censorship delays, I understand that correspondents' copy was held with their consent pending a final decision as to the future of the mock parliament. All copy has since been cleared.
    Mr. Pritt: Would the right hon. Gentleman tell the House why a cable to me from Mr. Worth Howard on the subject on 4th May was stopped, and why a cable to me on 29th April from an officer in the Army Education Corps, which did not deal with a matter of any military security, was also stopped?
    Sir J. Grigg: The hon. and learned Member is, I think, in error. The second telegram to which he refers—the earlier one—was certainly not stopped. On that, I am absolutely certain about my facts. I have no knowledge of the other telegram, and perhaps the hon. and learned Member will let me inquire into that.
    Mr. Loverseed: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the representation made to the senior officers concerned in Cairo was made in a proper manner through the "Music for All" committee; is he aware that it was freely reported in Cairo that certain personnel, who were named, were to be posted as a result of the activities of the parliament, and can he assure this House that their posting, which has now, in fact, taken place, has no political significance whatever?
    Sir J. Grigg: I can only speak for the Service over which I preside. It is perfectly true that one of the personnel concerned has been re-posted, but that,
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    I understand, was in accordance with a request which he had submitted before this incident took place, and was in accordance with his own wishes.
    Mr. Mathers: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it is rather derogatory to the dignity of his office and to the British Army that this action is decided by Goebbels?
    Sir J. Grigg: I think that in any military or quasi-military operations the effect on the enemy is one of the factors to be considered.
    Mr. Pritt: Is it correct that the parliament which had these instructions delivered to it voted a protest against it by approximately 600 to one?
    Sir J. Grigg: I cannot say what the formal procedure was. There were considerable protests, as I have said, and the local Commanders considered the question of disciplinary action, and, in all the circumstances, decided to take no such action.

  SCOTLAND

    Schools (Travelling Facilities)
    Mr. Leslieasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will consider the advisability, in the interests of the health of young children, to provide travelling facilities to school in country districts for a lesser distance than the present limit of three miles.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. T. Johnston): Education authorities have power to provide travelling facilities to school for children living in outlying parts of their areas. No minimum distance of three miles is prescribed, and if an authority regard a child's home which is less than three miles from a school as being in an outlying part, they may provide travelling facilities for the child to and from school.

    Fish Feeding (Experiments)
    Sir Murdoch MacDonaldasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has considered the Report on the experiments carried out in the sea-loch Sween in Argyllshire, where sodium nitrate and phosphates were distributed in the water for the purpose of increasing the food supply of fish; that these experiments were successful in increasing at a

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    phenomenally rapid rate the size of plaice and other flat fish; and whether he intends to have the experiments followed up by others with the same object in view of the importance of the subject.
    Mr. Johnston: I have been in close touch since the commencement with the experiments referred to in the Question, and I have read with much interest the preliminary report of the results, which indicates a remarkable growth-rate on the part of plaice and other flat fish. The initial experiments appear to show that the artificial feeding of plankton leads to an increase of about 300 per cent. in the rate of growth of these flat fish over the normal rate. Arrangements have been made for the experiments to be continued on an extended scale during the current year.

    Milk and Dairies (Scotland) Act
    Mr. Turtonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he proposes to introduce legislation amending the Milk and Dairies (Scotland) Act, 1919.
    Mr. Johnston: I presume the hon. Member is referring to the Milk and Dairies (Scotland) Act, 1914. The answer is in the negative.
    Mr. Turton: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with the present administration of the legislation upon it?
    Mr. Johnston: Yes, Sir.

  GAS AND ELECTRICITY METER RENTS
  Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he has now had an opportunity of completing his inquiries regarding the system adopted by American gas and electricity undertakings in connection with the charging of meter rents to the consumers.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Tom Smith): I understand that in the United States it is the general practice of gas and electricity undertakings not to make a specific charge in respect of meter rent. Gas and electricity undertakings must, however, recover from their consumers, in some form or another, not only the original cost of providing the meter, but
  20
  also the cost of its maintenance and reading. I understand that it is the practice in the United States to take account of these costs in the calculation of the fixed charges in the tariffs for gas and electricity which are in force there.
  Mr. De la Bère: Whilst appreciating the hon. Gentleman's inquiries into these matters, may I ask him whether he will endeavour to get something of this sort done in this country, in view of the great objection by the public to this quarterly meter charge?
  Mr. Smith: Yes, Sir, we are seeking further information on this, and the matter will then be considered.
  Sir Herbert Williams: Will the hon. Gentleman also consult the Postmaster-General on why he makes a charge for the telephone?

  DOMESTIC COAL SUPPLIES
  Mr. Mathersasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what prospect there is of householders receiving the restricted maximum quantity of 15 cwts. of coal during the months of May and June; and what is the weekly quantity per customer being received by merchants at present.
  Mr. Tom Smith: Subject to possible changes in the supply and transport position there is, in my opinion, a reasonable prospect that in the regions where the maximum quantity is 15 cwt. for the two months of May and June, the majority of the consumers who require coal for consumption or stocking should be able to obtain that quantity. Supplies to merchants vary in different districts, but for the regions concerned they average about 1.1 cwt. per week per premises.
  Mr. Mathers: Does not the Minister realise the impossibility of getting 15 cwts. in two months out of what he quotes as 1.1 cwt. per week? Is he further aware that in the majority of cases the merchants do not get sufficient supplies to enable them to deliver as much as 1 cwt. per week? In that case, is it not improper to give people the impression that they can get 15 cwts. in two months?
  Mr. Smith: I think not, Sir.
  Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the supplies of coal to merchants have been actually cut down

  21
  at a time when the public are led to believe that they are going to have more? This has resulted in very great difficulty in some places where merchants have not been able to supply even 1 cwt. a week.
  Mr. Smith: It is perfectly true to say that supplies were cut down owing to the limited amount available a couple of months ago, but the position has certainly improved since then.
  Mr. A. Bevan: In view of the fact that last year the House of Commons rejected a rationing scheme for householders in this country, would the hon. Gentleman ask his right hon. and gallant Friend to take an early opportunity of informing the House of Commons under what authority any of this rationing is done?

  SEVERN BARRAGE SCHEME
  Colonel Arthur Evansasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he has now considered the Report of the Technical Committee appointed to examine the conclusions of the Severn Barrage Committee; and whether he is yet in a position to make a statement to the House.
  Mr. Tom Smith: I have nothing to add to the statement on this matter which my right hon. Friend made on the 2nd May in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. Ellis Smith).
  Colonel Evans: Could the hon. Gentleman give any indication to the House of how long it will take to furnish the information?
  Mr. Smith: Yes, Sir, my right hon. and gallant Friend told the hon. Member for Stoke that he was treating this matter as one of urgency.

  HEATING (DISTRICT SCHEMES)
  Mr. Wakefieldasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if, in order to save fuel, and in particular the waste of heat which now takes place when generating electricity, he has considered the advisability of introducing schemes of district heating similar to those now being used successfully in the U.S.A. and in Russia.
  Mr. Tom Smith: Yes, Sir. This important question is receiving close attention by the Ministries concerned, and in
  22
  particular by a technical sub-committee of the Committee on Heating and Ventilation.
  Mr. Wakefield: While thanking the Parliamentary Secretary for his answer, may I ask whether he can give any indication when the conclusions of this Committee will be published?
  Mr. Smith: No, Sir, I cannot. No time has been stated.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Basic Industries
    Mr. T. J. Brooksasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of units of the following basic industries operating in the year 1937: collieries, ironstone mines, blast furnaces, steel producing plants, coke ovens and shipyards.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Dalton): As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    The numbers of collieries, ironstone mines, blast furnaces and coke oven were as follows:

    Description.

    1937.

    Collieries:

    Number of mines at work in Great Britain

    2,120

    Ironstone Mines:

    Number in operation in Great Britain

    37

    Blast Furnaces:

    Average number of furnaces in blast in United Kingdom

    125

    Coke Ovens:

    Number in use in Great Britain

    6,980

    The latest information available for shipyards and steel producing plants is for 1935. For that year the number of shipyards was 158 and the number of plants producing steel of different descriptions (as recorded at the 1935 Census of Production) was as follows:

    Description.

    No.

    Steel ingots:

    Other than of special steel

    …

    64

    Of special steel:

    Stainless and non-corrosive

    …

    21

    Other descriptions

    …

    56

    Steel castings, direct:

    Other than of special steel

    …

    30

    Of special steel:

    Stainless and non-corrosive

    …

    12

    Other descriptions

    …

    16

    International Cartels and Monopolies
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the President of the Board of Trade what precautions have been taken or are to be taken by his Department to ensure that all ties have been severed between German financial, industrial and similar concerns in this country which before the war acted as direct or indirect agents of such German firms.
    Mr. Dalton: Ample precautions were taken at the outbreak of war by the passing of the Trading with the Enemy Act under which all relations between United Kingdom and enemy firms are prohibited. This Act is being strictly enforced. If my hon. Friend can give me any evidence of infringements of the Act, I shall be only too glad to set the necessary machinery in motion.

    Russia (Post-war Trade)
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been directed to the agreement concluded between representatives of the U.S.S.R. and the U.S.A. business concerns which provides for a two-and-a-half billion dollars loan; that the U.S.A. concerns will export manufactured products which will be shipped as soon as war ends; and is any similar agreement being proposed by his Department.
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the President of the Board of Trade to what extent it is intended to encourage the use of the Export Credit Facilities; and if the Government's plan includes loans to the U.S.S.R. in order to facilitate the maximum trade with the U.S.S.R.
    Mr. Dalton: Yes, Sir, I have seen references in the Press to discussions between Soviet representatives and United. States manufacturers regarding post-war trade but I understand that the United States Government have taken no part in them. A number of manufacturers in this country have also, I am glad to say, been in touch with Soviet representatives about post-war business and I hope that other manufacturers will follow their example. At the present time no firm commitments can be made about delivery dates. But there have been conversations in Moscow between His Majesty's Embassy and the Soviet Government, and a desire has been expressed on both sides to expand Anglo-Soviet trade on a firm basis after the war.
    24
    Experts are now preparing lists of goods that each country will wish to purchase from the other. The question of export credits for post-war trade, both with Russia and other countries, is now being studied, and I am in touch with my right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the subject.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that between the two wars a large number of skilled engineers in the North of England were signing on, but the engineering shops were closing down while London financiers were facilitating German trade with Russia? Can he give us an assurance that, with comparable conditions in the future, Parliament will not be a party to a repetition of that sort of thing?
    Mr. Dalton: I have not had that experience, Sir.
    Mr. Benson: When the right hon. Gentleman says that the American Government are in no way involved, does he include in that statement the Import-Export Bank, which is a Government concern?
    Mr. Dalton: I mean exactly what I have said. I understand that there have been discussions with United States manufacturers.
    Sir H. Williams: So far as orders are now being placed by the British Government, on behalf of the Russian Government, could the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that all interested firms will have the chance of quoting?
    Mr. Dalton: That is not what the Question asks. War-time trade is being carried on under what is called the Protocol, and is entirely under Government auspices.

    Men's Suits (Unsold Stocks)
    The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Mr. ROBERTSON:
    61. To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he has taken any further steps to relieve retail clothiers of their unsold stocks of men's utility suits, jackets and trousers.
    Mr. Robertson: On a point of Order. I wish to ask Question 61, but before doing so I desire to correct a mistake in it and to substitute the word "austerity" for the word "utility."
    Mr. Dalton: The Question I am about to answer is that which appears on the Order Paper, and the answer is as follows: Measures to help retailers to dispose of any surplus stocks of these suits were indicated by my right hon. and gallant Friend, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, in the Debate on this subject on 6th April last, and, I am glad to say that the figures supplied to me by trade associations show that stocks have been falling steadily. I shall, however, continue to watch the position carefully.
    Mr. Robertson: Will the Minister take into account the fact that at the time of the Debate to which he refers his Department had not arranged to take over austerity style suits made of non-utility cloth, and will he take steps to have such stocks taken over?
    Mr. Dalton: The Ministry of Supply have since agreed, following consultations between themselves and my Department, to purchase, also for relief, non-utility suits.

    War Damage (Equipment and Furniture)
    Mr. Rostron Duckworthasked the President of the Board of Trade what sums have been paid out to business firms and private insurers, respectively, for war damage to equipment and to furniture.
    Mr. Dalton: Statements of receipts and payments for each financial year are laid before Parliament in accordance with the War Damage Act on or before 30th November next following the expiration of that year, except where, as in the cask of the Business Scheme, the Treasury have certified that it is inexpedient to do so. For the year ended 31st March, 1943, the amount paid out under the Private Chattels Scheme was £7,417,295 18s 11d.

  ARMED FORCES (SALUTING)
  Mr. Tinkerasked the Prime Minister if he is aware that all ranks in the Services are of opinion that saluting in the streets is honoured more in the breach than by observance and if he will consider an Order that did not make it a breach of discipline not saluting when off duty.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): No, Sir. A salute is an acknowledgment of the King's Commission and a courtesy
  26
  to Allied officers and I do not consider it desirable to attempt to make the distinction suggested by my hon. Friend.
  Mr. Tinker: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when regulations are made for discipline, unless they are respected by the majority of those concerned, they become irksome to everyone and soon fall into disuse? If the right hon. Gentleman will walk along Whitehall with me some day, he will find that everybody is trying to evade this, both officers and men. It is on account of that, I think, that saluting ought to be abolished.
  The Prime Minister: If my hon. Friend has an opportunity of visiting Moscow during the war, I think he will see the smartest saluting in the world. The Russians attach great importance to these minor acts of ceremony in the building up of armies which are capable of facing the worst rigours of war.
  Wing-Commander Grant-Ferris: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one never sees an American saluting?*
  Sir A. Southby: May I ask my right hon. Friend, should he consider walking down Whitehall with the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker), if he will explain to him that when people take off their hats, they are taking them off to my right hon. Friend and not to the hon. Member for Leigh?
  Mr. Thorne: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if I met him in the street I would salute him?
  The Prime Minister: I hope we should be walking arm in arm.

  AID TO RUSSIA (PUBLIC SUBSCRIPTIONS)
  Mr. Mathersasked the Prime Minister whether he will give particulars of the contribution made by public subscription towards Russia's war effort as apart from what has been done by His Majesty's Government.
  The Prime Minister: I am not in a position to give particulars of all such contributions, but as mentioned in my statement of 10th May, since October, 1941, more than £3,000,000 have been spent through charitable organisations, on surgical and medical items and clothing.
  * See OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th May 1944; Vol. 400, C. 347.
  Mr. Mathers: I understood that the Prime Minister wished for an opportunity to give further particulars. Notwithstanding the large extent of these subscriptions, will he urge that they should be continued, because the need still continues?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, they certainly should continue. One form of subscription is the penny-a-week subscription, which brings in a vast sum of money and embraces an enormous number of people. I certainly feel that the need continues and the ever-increasing severity of the fighting will make supplies of all kinds to Russia most necessary.

  MARRIED WOMEN'S NATIONALITY (DOMINIONS)
  Sir T. Mooreasked the Prime Minister whether he will include in his discussions with the Dominion Prime Ministers the advisability of altering our British law so as to permit a British woman married to a resident in the Dominions the right to retain her British nationality for purposes of divorce.
  The Prime Minister: As was stated by my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, in reply to my hon. and gallant Friend on 4th May, the question is not one of nationality law but of the law of domicile. The present meeting of Prime Ministers would not afford a suitable opportunity for consideration of a question of this kind. The possibility of legislation on the lines of the Matrimonial Causes (Dominions Troops) Act, 1919, is now being taken up with the Dominion Governments.
  Sir T. Moore: While thanking my right hon. Friend very much for that answer, may I ask him whether he will bear in mind that lifelong misery is caused to many innocent British women through the law as it stands at present and that this war will naturally produce many more cases?

  CIVIL AVIATION (MINISTERIAL RESPONSIBILITY)
  Mr. Edgar Granvilleasked the Prime Minister if he will now consider the appointment of a Minister for civil aviation or without portfolio to answer for this increasingly important subject of the Government's post-war plans in the House of Commons.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. Responsibility for civil aviation rests with the Secretary of State for Air under statutory authority. The Secretary of State for Air will, therefore, continue to answer for his Department. Responsibility for the co-ordination of Government policy under the War Cabinet rests with the C.A.T. Committee, of which the Lord Privy Seal is Chairman and the Secretary of State for Air a member. I should like to say, in giving this piece of information of a Cabinet Committee, that it must not be taken as a precedent.
  Mr. Granville: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his reply, may I ask him whether he will take into consideration the fact that important international discussions are going on and that the House of Commons has no direct contact with the Minister responsible? This is not only a matter of public policy. The public purse is also affected, as this is very much a spending Committee.
  The Prime Minister: That is the case whenever a subject is handled by a Member of the other place. We, naturally, do not have direct contact but we have our usual share of the offices and functions of State in this House; in fact, it is sometimes thought to be rather the other way. However, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air will hold himself entirely at the disposition of the House.
  Mr. Bowles: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Labour Party published a pamphlet of policy in regard to the future of civil aviation about a week ago? Was that considered by the Cabinet Committee and, if so, why was it dismissed in two sentences by the Lord Privy Seal in his speech last Wednesday in another place?
  The Prime Minister: It certainly shows that my Noble Friend has considered the matter, but I will draw his attention to the hon. Member's question. I feel that this matter is in very capable hands.
  Colonel Arthur Evans: Can my right hon. Friend say why the Lord Privy Seal used two words instead of one? [Laughter.]
  Mr. Bowles: Does not the Prime Minister think that the hilarity with which that last question was received shows the contempt with which the continuance of the

  29
  Coalition is held in certain parts of the House?
  Mr. A. Bevan: Is that indicative of the attention that the Government give to Labour Party proposals on policy?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Member must have it out with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South Cardiff (Colonel A. Evans).

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Interest-Free Loans
    Mr. Stokesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much money has been lent free of interest to the Government for the duration of the war; and how much for any defined period beyond the termination of hostilities.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Anderson): I fear that figures cannot be given since it is not a question of loans contracted for definite periods but of the varying intentions expressed by the lenders when they made their interest-free loans. As stated in my reply of 9th May to the hon. Member for Newton (Sir R. Young) the majority of the lenders have expressed their intention of leaving the money with the Treasury for the duration of the war. Further details are given in the reply referred to, a copy of which I am sending to the hon. Member.
    Mr. Stokes: Is the Chancellor aware that his predecessor stated that loans amounting to more than £50,000,000 had been made free of interest, and if his predecessor gave figures why cannot the right hon. Gentleman give figures?
    Sir J. Anderson: Figures were given in a reply the other day, to which I have just referred.

    Patent Royalties (Inventors' Expenses)
    Mr. Wakefieldasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that although patent grants state that a patentee will enjoy the whole profit of his invention, inventors are not allowed to recover their expenses; that if an inventor spent £100,000 in perfecting an invention it would be necessary for him to collect £4,000,000 in royalties within the 16 years' life of the patent merely to reimburse himself; and what action is he proposing to take to remedy this unsatisfactory position.
    Sir J. Anderson: As I mentioned in my Budget speech, the position of patents in relation to the assessment of trading profits is one of the matters that are receiving consideration in connection with the postwar taxation of industry, and I am quite prepared to examine, at the same time, the question whether anything can be done to meet the point raised by my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Wakefield: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask him whether he will take particular care to see that the personal position of individual inventors, which has been rather overlooked, will be borne in mind in the future?

    Shipping Directors (Income Tax)'
    Mr. Tinkerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been drawn to the fact that some of the directors of Lamport and Holt shipping lines are to receive a lump sum of money each to cover their salaries for a period of years; and if this will be subject to Income Tax as it would have been if paid as salary yearly.
    Sir J. Anderson: I am afraid it would be contrary to all precedent and inconsistent with the secrecy that governs the assessment of taxation to afford any information in regard to the taxation liability of particular businesses or particular individuals.
    Mr. Tinker: Could we have this matter explained more fully on the Finance Bill, if I put down the necessary Amendment?
    Sir J. Anderson: I am always anxious to give the House all the information I can, but my hon. Friend will realise that the obligation of secrecy is imposed by law upon those concerned for the assessment of direct taxation.
    Mr. A. Bevan: Has not this obligation been rather abused recently? Is it not a fact that information which the House of Commons ought to receive as to the disposal of public moneys has been withheld from us under this excuse of secrecy? A number of instances of the same kind have occurred recently.
    Sir J. Anderson: I should be very glad to have any instances which the hon. Gentleman has in mind, if he will send them on to me.
    Mr. Bevan: I will.
    Mr. Pritt: Will the Chancellor consider how the law operates now in respect of gentlemen who receive compensation in the nature of lump sums, on which they would otherwise pay tax as earnings; and will he amend the law, if necessary?
    Sir J. Anderson: That is a separate question which may well be debated; I was asked a Question regarding a particular case.

    Cigarettes, Beer and Whisky (Taxation)
    Mr. G. Straussasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much of the cost of 2s. 4d. for 20 cigarettes, 1s. for a pint of beer and £1 5s. 9d. for a bottle of whisky goes in taxation.
    Sir J. Anderson: The answer is 1s. 9d. on the 20 cigarettes, 7½d. on the pint of beer and 18s. 4½d. on the bottle of whisky.
    Mr. Strauss: I take it from that reply that the Chancellor welcomes all public expenditure on these goods?
    Sir J. Anderson: I am merely giving information.

    International Monetary Fund (Joint Statement)
    Mr. Stokesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the British experts who collaborated in drawing up the Joint Statement by experts on the establishment of an International Monetary Fund were Treasury officials; and, if not, from what organisations were they selected.
    Sir J. Anderson: Yes, Sir. Apart from Lord Keynes, the United Kingdom experts who collaborated in drawing up the Joint Statement were permanent Treasury officials and whole-time temporary officials who have been in the service of the Government throughout the war.
    Mr. Stokes: Can the Chancellor assure the House that the whole-time temporary servants who have been in the employment of the Treasury for the period of the war are not drawn either from commercial or banking interests?
    Sir J. Anderson: No, Sir, I do not think I could give such an assurance as that.

    Post-War Credits
    Mr. Mainwaringasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, having
    32
    regard to the anxiety felt by large numbers of workers who have not received for each year separately a statement showing the amount of post-war credits to which they are entitled, whether he will make a statement making clear their position.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Assheton): I am not clear to what circumstances my hon. Friend's Question relates. Every taxpayer who is entitled to post-war credit for any year is sent a separate certificate of post-war credit for that year. The certificates for 1941–42 and 1942–43 have already been issued: the certificates for 1943–44 will be issued during the current year.
    Mr. Mainwaring: Is the Financial Secretary aware that the Question relates to the failure to issue such certificates to large numbers of workers who regard their money as an investment in the British Empire and are anxious about its realisation?
    Mr. Assheton: If my hon. Friend will be good enough to let me have any case in which there has been delay, I will look into it.

  SWEDISH IRON ORE (SHIPMENTS TO GERMANY)
  Sir A. Southbyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Economic Warfare to what extent iron ore is now being exported from Sweden to Germany; and whether representations have been made to the Swedish Government to put an end to the supply to Germany of this vital war material.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Economic Warfare (Mr. Dingle Foot): His Majesty's Government and the United States Government have on various occasions made representations to the Swedish Government regarding the volume of iron ore shipments to Germany and the importance of Swedish iron ore to the German war effort. In particular, this subject was fully discussed during the Anglo-American-Swedish regotiations which took place in London last year. Following these negotiations the Swedish Government, as they have already announced, made arrangements to limit their exports of iron ore to Germany during 1944 to a maximum of 7,000,000

  33
  tons. This compares with over 10,000,000 tons in 1943. In addition there are small exports to other Axis countries.
  Sir A. Southby: Can my right hon. Friend say what proportion of the Swedish exports of iron ore to Germany comes from Granfesberg Mine and whether that mine is not owned by Wallenbergs, who came over to this country and conducted the negotiations here?
  Mr. Foot: I think that question ought to be put down. I should not like to accept the accuracy of this statement without notice.

  DANISH SHIPYARD (GERMAN ORDERS)
  Sir A. Southbyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Economic Warfare to what extent Germany is obtaining ships from the Danish shipyard at Aalborg; and whether this yard is constructing U-boats.
  Mr. Foot: According to my information at least two vessels have been delivered from this shipyard to Germany since the German occupation of Denmark. The first was a troop-transport ordered by the Chilean Government and which was confiscated by the Germans. The second was an ice-breaker. At the present time four merchant ships are under construction, of which two certainly and one probably are for Germany. My information is that no U-boats are being or have been constructed at this yard.

  AFFORESTATION, WALES
  Mr. Mainwaringasked the right hon. and gallant Member for Rye, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, if he will state the total acreage planted by the Commissioners in Wales; where the several plantations are situate; and what acreage of plantable land has been acquired.
  Colonel Sir George Courthope (Forestry Commissioner): 130,000 acres of plantable land have been acquired by the Forestry Commissioners in Wales and Monmouth and 77,500 acres have been planted. As there are a considerable number of forest areas I will, with the permission of the House, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list stating their situation.
  Mr. Mainwaring: Do they contemplate taking further acreage for planting in Wales?
  Sir G. Courthope: Certainly.
  Following is the list:
  County and Forest.

  Brecknock—Brecon, Coed-y-Rhaiadr, Giedd, Glasfynydd, Usk.

  Brecknock and Carmarthen—Crychan.

  Brecknock and Hereford—Hay.

  Brecknock and Monmouth—Mynydd Ddu.

  Cardigan—Brynmawr, Cwmeinion, Myherin.

  Cardigan and Montgomery—Tarenig.

  Carmarthen—Brechfa, Caio, Pembrey.

  Carnarvon—Beddgelert.

  Carnarvon and Denbigh—Gwydyr.

  Denbigh and Merioneth—Clocaenog.

  Glamorgan—Cwmogwr, Llantrisant, Margam, Michaelston, Rheola, St. Gwynno, Taironen.

  Merioneth—Coed-y-Brenin, Cynwyd, Hafod Fawr.

  Monmouth—Chepstow, Itton, Llanover, Monmouth, Tintern.

  Montgomery—Dyfnant, Hafren, Mathrafel.

  Montgomery and Merioneth—Dovey.

  Montgomery and Salop—Kerry.

  Radnor—Coed Sarnau, Radnor.

  CONDEMNED FISH, BILLINGSGATE
  Mr. Thorneasked the Minister of Food if he can give any information in connection with the many tons of fish which were thrown away at Billingsgate Market on Saturday, 6th May; and what action was taken about the matter.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Mr. Mabane): Four and a half tons of fish, representing about 1½ per cent. of arrivals, were condemned at Billingsgate on 6th May, most of it being of the less popular varieties unsold earlier in the week. To facilitate sales all restrictions on the purchase of these varieties by catering establishments have been removed for the summer months.

  MINERS' DISEASES (MEDICAL BOARDS)
  Mr. Mainwaringasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he can state the average length of waiting time, after notification, for a Medical Board by miners suspected to be suffering from silicosis and other chest complaints.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake): Normally the average time over all cases be-

  35
  tween an application to the Medical Board and the Board's decision is 3 to 4 weeks, but at the present time, owing to the very large number of applications received from miners in South Wales, the interval in this area is considerably longer. As my right hon. Friend explained in reply to the hon. Member for Neath (Sir W. Jenkins) on 11th instant, applications are dealt with as expeditiously as possible, but in present circumstances delay is unavoidable.
  Mr. Mainwaring: In the circumstances the right hon. Gentleman has just described, would it not be fair and just to these men to relieve their anxiety and provide additional facilities in order to reduce this waiting time?
  Mr. Peake: As the hon. Member knows, we doubled the size of the Medical Board in South Wales in July last, and we have experienced very great difficulty in finding any additional personnel, but we have been in consultation with the Miners Federation in South Wales on the question in order to try to solve the difficulties that have arisen.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Molson: May I ask the Leader of the House whether, in accordance with his undertaking, he has been able to arrange for a Debate on the hours of sitting of the House, and whether a free vote of the House will be allowed?
Mr. Eden: I have considered this. The House will understand that we have important business this week and next, and I think that the only opportunity there will be for a Debate on the hours of sitting will occur on Thursday of this week. Accordingly, at the beginning of Business on Thursday I propose to afford that opportunity and to get the Business already announced, after that discussion has taken place. I hope that that will
be agreeable to the House. Should a vote be called, the Whips will not be put on. I must warn the House that, for security reasons, we shall have to take the discussion in Secret Session.
Sir H. Williams: As we know the factories in which all the parts of German aeroplanes are made, does my right hon. Friend imagine that Hitler does not know at what hour we meet?
Mr. Eden: I do not know at what hour we shall meet.
Sir H. Williams: I mean the hour we now meet.
Mr. Eden: That is not the point. The point is whether there are to be any changes.
Sir H. Williams: Does my right hon. Friend think for a minute that within 12 hours of our making any change in the hour of sitting, the Germans will not know?
Mr. Eden: The hon. Gentleman may have more knowledge of these matters than I have. I am prepared to give my reasons in Secret Session. We are living in slightly exceptional times. I discussed this matter with the Minister of Home Security, and he asked me—and I am in agreement with him—to make the statement I have made.
Mr. A. Bevan: Is it the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to ask the House to extend the Sitting to-morrow for the discussion of Regulations? A large number of Members will want to take part in that Debate. It covers a wide ground and it has been discussed by Ministers in speeches in the country.
Mr. Eden: Originally, a full day was not asked for, and now we have given a full day, which is a larger ration than was at first applied for. In these circumstances we had better watch the position to see how we get on.
Mr. Bevan: The question of what was asked for is not the important point. The important point is that this is a matter of considerable interest which has been brought up on Bill after Bill in the House, and the House has expressed on more than one occasion a desire to consider it as an abstract principle. A very limited Debate to-morrow will be an inadequate vehicle to give Members an opportunity of discussing the matter. Will the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, consider an extension of an hour or two?
Mr. Eden: A considerable time is being allotted, and I cannot go beyond saying that I would like to see how things work out before giving a decision.
Captain Cobb: Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that he will not be sticky about extending the time, as many Members want to take part?
Mr. Eden: I should hesitate to define the word "sticky,"
Mr. Leach: There is a reference in the Press to the possible publication of a White Paper on the Beveridge proposals—
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member had better wait until Thursday.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS
  That they have agreed to—
  Connah's Quay Gas Bill, without Amendment.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]

  SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE OF CREDIT, 1944

    EXPENDITURE ARISING OUT OF THE WAR
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,000,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, towards defraying the expenses which may be incurred during the year ending on the 3rst day of March, 1945, for general Navy, Army and Air services and supplies in so far as specific provision is not made therefor by Parliament; for securing the public safety, the defence of the realm, the maintenance of public order and the efficient prosecution of the war; for maintaining supplies and services essential to the life of the community; for relief and rehabilitation in areas brought under the control of any of the United Nations; and generally for all expenses, beyond those provided for in the ordinary Grants of Parliament, arising out of the existence of a state of war."
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Anderson): I have to ask the Committee for a further Vote of Credit for war expenditure. In view of the recent Budget Debate and of the impending introduction of the Finance Bill, I trust that the Committee will allow me to confine my remarks to a few brief facts about our war expenditure. Although the sum of £1,000,000,000 which was voted by the Committee on 25th January last for the current year is likely to cover our requirements until the early part of next month, it is never possible, and less so than ever in the unpredictable circumstances of the present time, to say with certainty on what precise date money voted for war purposes will be exhausted. I am accordingly asking now for a Vote of a further sum of £1,000,000,000. On the basis of such information as is now available as to the probable rate of expenditure in the immediate future, this sum should suffice to carry us on to a date in August, before which I shall no doubt have to ask the Committee for a further sum.
    When I addressed the Committee on 25th January, I said that our war expenditure was then averaging about £13,250,000 a day, of which about £11,000,000 was on the Fighting and Supply Services. I said that those rates

    53
    might be expected to show some slight increase in the later months of the financial year. In fact, the rates rose in the last few weeks to £14,750,000 and £12,000,000 respectively. These figures, however, represent a seasonal rather than a permanent increase. The average rate of total expenditure over the whole of the financial year just closed was approximately £13,500,000 a day, including £11,250,000 for the Fighting and Supply Services. As regards the present financial year, the period that has elapsed is rather too short to provide an average rate of any real significance, but over the six weeks to last Saturday the total expenditure has been at the rate of about £13,250,000 a day, of which about £10,750,000 was on the Fighting and Supply Services.
    Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I think that there is only one sentence that I need say—"He who wills the end wills the means." That is a view of the House of Commons of this matter.
    Mr. Tinker: May I ask whether the recently improved allowances for soldiers are included in these Estimates, and if so, to what extent they will affect the amounts to be voted?
    Sir J. Anderson: The Committee will appreciate that this is not an Estimate; this is a provision of resources expected to last for the period which I indicated, that is, up to next August. Of course the money will be used to meet all expenditure which has been authorised, and the estimated cost of the additional allowances referred to was given, I think, in the statement which was made on the subject and is of the order of £50,000,000 a year.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: If this Vote of Credit is approved, it simply means that the Treasury is authorised to spend £1,000,000,000 on behalf of the war effort. I wonder whether Parliament gives serious consideration to the consequences of these repeated Votes of Credit. In due course this £1,000,000,000 will have to be met from one source or another. I estimate that approximately 53 per cent. will be provided from taxation and 25 per cent. from borrowing, and that approximately 22 per cent. will be found by the banking system. That means that the coun-
    54
    try is permanently put in debt to the banking system, and to that I object.
    Sir Percy Harris: On a point of Order. Are we justified in having a discussion on the way in which we raise the money for this Vote of Credit?
    The Chairman: No. That would be a matter for the Committee of Ways and Means.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: We are asked to give authority for a Vote of Credit for £000000,000, and I really do not understand the intervention of the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris), because I feel that, as a Member of Parliament, I am justified in dealing with the significance of this matter. I take exception to Parliament being asked repeatedly to grant these Votes of Credit when a large percentage of the money is raised by
    putting the country into debt to the banking system. I submit that the authority for making up any gap between borrowing and taxation—
    The Chairman: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but he is certainly out of Order in those remarks which apparently relate to the raising of the money.
    Mr. A. Bevan: Is it your Ruling, Major Milner, that the hon. Member cannot discuss how the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to raise this sum of money?
    The Chairman: That would certainly be out of Order. The question before us is how the Chancellor will spend this sum.
    Mr. Bevan: Would it be in Order to discuss the destination of the money or the source of the money? Which would be in Order at the moment?
    The Chairman: The destination of the money, clearly. We are in Committee of Supply.
    Mr. Tinker: In my view, the question seems to cover the whole range of how the money shall be raised. It must be a question for us how the money is to be provided.
    The Chairman: The procedure of the House on this matter is well known. It is the Committee of Ways and Means which decides upon the ways and means by

    55
    which money is to be raised, whereas the Committee of Supply is concerned with the propriety of its expenditure, and that is the matter which we are in process of dealing with at the moment.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: I am sorry that I am not keeping in line with our procedure. A few weeks ago, I asked a question as to the amount of the deficit on the Budget since the war started, and the answer was to the effect that we had a deficit of £10,900,000,000, up to 31st January last. May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the gap between taxation and borrowing—
    The Chairman: I am sorry, but I cannot permit that question to be asked in this Committee.
    Mr. Bowles: On a point of Order. You said just now, Major Milner, that hon. Members can discuss the destination of the money. Surely one of the most important questions is into whose hands it is going to be paid back at the end.
    The Chairman: Yes, but an even more important matter at the moment is the immediate destination of the money.
    Mr. Clement Davies: Surely any hon. Member can object to the Vote of Credit, and, in doing so, can raise the question of how that money is to be utilised, and say that it is not necessary to raise it in this particular way?
    The Chairman: This is not an occasion for discussing the raising of the money in the ordinary sense of that term. The Budget is the occasion for raising the money. This is an occasion for providing a Vote of Credit, on account of expenditure.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: While I completely agree that the Vote of Credit is as you have described it, Major Milner, I feel that the Committee should know what is the ultimate responsibility that Parliament will carry by granting this Vote of Credit. Therefore, I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the £10,900,000,000 which he said was the deficit on the Budget is the gap between—
    The Chairman: Again I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but we are not discussing the £10,900,000,000. We are discussing a sum not exceeding £1,000,000,000 which the Committee has been asked to vote on account.
    Mr. A. Bevan: In view of the fact that a portion of this money will be used to organise loan campaigns, would I not be in Order in resisting the Vote of Credit on the ground that that is an extravagant and useless way of spending public money?
    The Chairman: That would be in Order if the hon. Member desired to take that Line.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: What we are doing to-day will lay an additional heavy imposition upon the taxpayers of this country and that I do resist.
    The Chairman: I cannot hear the hon. Member further unless he has some other point to raise.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: Then I will record that I object to this Vote of Credit being granted.
    Mr. Stokes: I understand that it is in Order to discuss the waste of public money on the celebrations which take place throughout the country in order to raise funds for the Chancellor's gap. I wish to tell the Committee—I see the Chancellor has gone—that it is about time that the Government endeavoured to tell the truth to the country about where the money comes from. I know that we are not allowed to discuss that sort of thing at this moment, but I ask the Committee to bear in mind that the Chancellor has said that he does not keep any account of new money. He does not think that is important, though any business man would do so as a matter of elementary efficiency. On this question of waste: Up and down the country these celebrations are going on. I have come from a tiny seaport town which had a target of £25,000. The steels were all decorated with flags, the mayor and corporation were called out, and tanks and goodness knows what were put into the procession—and the joke of it all was that they lost the procession and the crowd never saw it. I want to put forward this matter in all seriousness. The target set for one of these ridiculous celebrations was of the order of £3,000,000. At 10.30 on the day the

    57
    subscription list opened there was a terrific demonstration at the town hall. The mayor and corporation were there in their robes, there was a guard of honour lining the streets up to the steps of the town hall, trumpeters were blowing a clarion call of welcome, and there was a ridiculous little man with a plush cushion and a top hat. And what was on it? The Ark of
    the Covenant? No. A cheque for £2,000,000 from the Prudential. I submit that that is really carrying the thing too far. It is time the Chancellor of the Exchequer set out upon a campaign of education in this matter instead of a campaign of deceit.
    Mr. Driberg: As it is the question of the destination of the money which is before us, should I be in Order in raising the matter of Service pay and allowances and various anomalies arising out of the recent White Paper?
    The Chairman: Yes, that would be in Order.
    Mr. Driberg: I want very briefly—and I do not expect any reply now from the Government—to draw attention to the fact that there has been considerable disappointment among serving personnel in the last week or two after the exhilarating and optimistic stories which they had seen in the newspapers about the increases in allowances. It happened in many units last week that the first pay day under the new scheme came round, and to their surprise and regret many of the men concerned found that they were having 25. or 4s. docked from their money instead of getting what they had vaguely, perhaps wrongly, expected would be an increase.
    Mr. Austin Hopkinson: On a point of Order. Are we in Order in discussing money which has not been provided?
    The Chairman: No, but the hon. Member's remarks were incidental to the money which is being provided.
    Mr. Driberg: I shall detain the Committee for only a moment or two to draw attention to another small anomaly, which seems very wrong to me, and which I hope will be looked into by the officials who are now examining these anomalies. I understand that the husbands of childless wives, who do not benefit under the new arrangement, are now being docked 6d. as well, although their wives do not
    58
    get any increased allowance at all. I should be very glad if this point could be borne in mind.
    Mr. Bellenger: I have listened to the remarks of my hon. Friend with a considerable amount of interest because, although I do not know that the Treasury can do anything, there is no doubt that there are a tremendous number of anomalies and inequalities in pay and allowances and war pensions which have not been dealt with in the White Paper. I do not think this is an occasion when the matter can be put right, but I urge upon the Government to keep an open mind on some of the proposals which we shall have to bring before Parliament in one form or another on a future occasion.
    Mr. A. Bevan: May I ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what proportion of the £1,000,000,000 is to be set aside for the relief and rehabilitation of the areas under the control of any of the United Nations? Has any estimate been formed of that proportion? We are asked to swallow a global sum of £1,000,000,000 and I should like to know whether it would be possible for the Financial Secretary to break it down from that indigestible figure and give the proportion which the Treasury proposes to set aside for the purpose I have already stated.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Assheton): I should like to say first, in answer to the point raised by the hon. Member far Southampton (Mr. Craven-Ellis), as I said in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) the other day, that that is a point with which the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or I, hope to deal before long. With regard to the points raised by the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) and the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg), those will be borne in mind.
    Mr. Stokes: We want action.
    Mr. Assheton: In regard to the question raised by the hon. Member for Ipswich, we did have a discussion on that on the Motion for the Adjournment. I am sorry the hon. Member did not take part in it, but there was the opportunity. I do not think the Committee would want to pursue that particular aspect on this occasion. As to the question raised by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), the House was informed at the time that the

    59
    estimate for U.N.R.R.A. was £80,000,000, and, of course, this Vote of Credit for £1,000,000,000 will cover whatever portion of that is necessary, during the time this £1,000,000,000 runs.
    Mr. A. Hopkinson: It seems to me that we should be in Order in discussing whether the Vote of Credit is really necessary for the conduct of the war during the period in question and that this is a subject which might very well be debated. It has never yet been debated whether the expenditure is necessary or not. I venture to say that no one who has had such an intimate acquaintance with these matters as I have, has any doubt but that, of the £1,000,000,000, at least £200,000,000 will be poured down the drain. Where there is no wages policy, no proper contract policy, for the supply of munitions, the waste is certainly not less than 20 per cent., and I do hope that, at some time, the House of Commons will pull itself together and realise what it is here for, which is not to go on voting enormous sums of money and preparing a time of the greatest privation for our people after the war, but to examine how that money is spent and what sort of control there is over the spending of it.
    May I put a small case in point to show the way our expenditure is run? One check upon expenditure on munitions by a certain Department is a system of cost accounting. What it amounts to is that an efficient firm takes on a contract for goods at, say, £1,000 apiece. The contract is also let out to other firms who, being inefficient, are charging £1,1000, Cost accountants are sent in by the Department. They discover that the efficient firm, charging £1,000, is making a considerable profit owing to its ing is not making any profit at efficiency, but the inefficient firm, chargall and, therefore, they reduce the price of the efficient firm to £900 and raise the price of the inefficient firm to £1,200. And that, incredible as it may appear to Members of this Committee, is the way this costing system works. This is the so-called check upon unnecessary' public expenditure whereby every inefficient firm in the country is favoured at the expense of the efficient ones.
    Another point is the method of payment by which the material and the wages costs are taken and then a per
    60
    centage on the aggregate wages paid is allowed for standing charges. We find, in one case, that the standing charges come to over 300 per cent. on the inflated wages already being paid. In many munition works, the wages paid are vastly inflated and out of all proportion to the value of the product received for those wages. When you get wages inflated on a job to the extent of, perhaps, 100 per cent. and then 200 to 300 per cent. is allowed on wages costs for the standing charges of the firm, you get a state of affairs which I can only describe as a scandal to this country and a disgrace to that Department which ought, really, to control national expenditure and see that the money is not, as I have said already, poured down the drain.
    Mr. Molson: May I ask the hon. Member a question? If he has all this information available, has he ever appeared before the Select Committee on National Expenditure with it?
    Mr. Hopkinson: No. We know from experience that if anybody takes up a scandal with that Committee, somebody in authority stops it.
    Mr. Lewis: I was rather sorry to hear the Financial Secretary say that he was going to take a note of what was said by the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes). I hope he will pay not attention to it. It is true that there are great popular misconceptions as to the effect of war savings weeks, but they do serve one extremely important purpose. They encourage people to save. They induce people to save who have never saved before and those savings will prove, in the future, one of the chief weapons in our armoury against inflation. Savings are of first-rate importance, and I hope the Treasury and the Government will not be deterred from encouraging these war savings weeks.
    Mr. Stokes: As my next door neighbour the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Lewis) has challenged me, may I say that I have never discouraged savings, but I have discouraged the humbug "put over" on the people that by saving their money, they produce new tanks. The hon. Member knows that is the case. My complaint is that the Chancellor will not set out on an expedition of truth to the people, explaining the importance

    61
    of saving and explaining that it does not make the slightest bit of difference whether they subscribe to these ridiculous funds or not, so long as they put their money on deposit in the bank and leave it there.
    I want to say a word in support of my hon. Friend the Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson) though, probably, he will not like my doing so. It is on the question of the shocking waste of public funds in manufacturing. The Committee will forgive me if I refer particularly to tanks. This is a straightforward statement of fact about which the country is not allowed to know. Those who know anything about the manufacture of these vehicles, know that, not £200,000,000, but at least £500,000,000 is wasted in producing tanks and, then, when we protest in the House, we are forced into a secret Debate so that the country shall not learn the truth. The only reason for the secret Debate was to defend the Government. I did not learn anything then I did not know before. I cannot refer to what happened in the secret Debate, but the whole object was to cover up the appalling fraud perpetrated on the people by the incompetence of the so-called technical experts in the Ministry of Supply. Those people are more fit to be in charge of perambulators than of tanks. The country should know that practically brand-new tanks to-day are being cut up for scrap. At the time they were made, it was known that they would never be used in battle. Recently, I visited a tank unit where a certain tank was still having mounted on it a particular gun mounting, which was never intended to take a gum. The gun mounting was solemnly put on to the tank and the tank was delivered to the unit, and the unit dismounted the gun mounting at once.
    Mr. A. Hopkinson: There is no need to confine that sort of thing to tanks. I know instances of aircraft being manufactured and then smashed up again.
    Mr. Stokes: I could keep the Committee entertained about many such things, but tanks are of much more general interest. I submit that the Government ought to agree to a full and proper inquiry into the wastage that has gone on behind closed doors. We ought to be told where the incompetents are and, as the soldiers say, "root out these inefficient devils and destroy them."
    Mr. Price: I do not wish to take up the time of the Committee, but I feel that I must say something in connection with the remarks of the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson). If I understood him aright, he made certain statements in regard to waste of public money in connection with contracts. I happen to be a member of the Select Committee on National
    Expenditure which has issued Reports
    from time to time and, I think, if the hon. Member had read those Reports, he would have seen that there is no very widespread wastage going on. The Committee has certainly set its face very much against the cost-plus method of accounting, which had been allowed in the early stages of the war and which led to a great wastage of money. Such contracts are now going on only in certain circumstances.
    Mr. Hopkinson: What is the essential difference between the cost-plus system and a fixed percentage on the wages?
    Mr. Price: Methods have been introduced, whereby provisional contracts are made and, meanwhile, costings are introduced, and if they are found to be lower than the original cost, they are reduced. If the hon. Member had read the Reports, he would have seen that that is going on on a very large scale. I do not think he has any right to make such wild statements.
    Mr. Hopkinson: The hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) is accusing me of making wild statements. I can give him chapter and verse in connection with my own concern, of everything I have said in my speech.
    Mr. Price: I object to the very wild statement that great wastage is going on. One other point. The hon. Member for Mossley intimated that war workers are earning excessive wages. That is not the case at all. On that, too, there have been investigations and I, personally, have been over a certain munition works where we specially asked to see the wage, sheets in order to find out whether there were any such cases of boys earning £10 a week which is the sort of thing we hear being said. Where large wages were being earned it was always due to long overtime work and Saturday and Sunday work and, generally, wages are not anything like what is suggested in the speech of the hon. Member. Those are the only points. I wish to make.
    Mr. Hopkinson: I did not say that wages were universally high. I said that in many instances wages in munition works are vastly inflated. The hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) said that he visited one munitions works and looked at the wages sheets. I would ask him what authority he is on the question whether wages are high or not?
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Resolved:
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,000,000,000, he granted to His Majesty, towards defraying the expenses which may be incurred during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1945, for general Navy, Army and Air services and supplies in so far as specific provision is not made therefor by Parliament; for securing the public safety, the defence of the realm, the maintenance of public order and the efficient prosecution of the war; for maintaining supplies and services essential to the life of the community; for relief and rehabilitation in areas brought under the control of any of the United Nations; and generally for all expenses, beyond those provided for in the ordinary Grants of Parliament arising out of the existence of a state of war."
    Resolution to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

  WAYS AND MEANS
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER. in the Chair]
  Resolved:
  "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1943, the sum of £1,000,000,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—[Mr. Assheton.]
  Resolution to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

  AGRICULTURE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): I beg to move "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
  This Bill which I am now asking the House to give a Second Reading to is the fifth agricultural miscellaneous Bill to be introduced in war-time. But unlike its predecessors which were concerned solely with minor matters immediately connected
  64
  with the prosecution of the wartime food production campaign; this Bill contains two provisions of major importance to the agricultural industry. They are the establishment of a National Advisory Service and the proposals regarding agricultural credit. Both proposals, though of a long-term nature, are included in the present Bill because we think that it is essential to provide for them in anticipation of the conclusion of the war in Europe. The Bill covers so many different items that perhaps the House will allow me to go through the Bill, Clause by Clause, and try to explain quite simply in a few words what the Clauses are designed to do. But before doing that I would like to point out that Clause 2, which deals with agricultural credits, affects private interests, namely, those of the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, and Clause 8 affects the private interests of the corresponding Scottish body. This Bill is therefore a hybrid Bill, and it must comply with the usual procedure and will, after Second Reading, have to be committed to a Joint Select Committee of both Houses before it is committed to a Committee of this House. Furthermore, in accordance with custom, I have to inform the House that I have a private interest in Clause 2. I have a mortgage in my private capacity with the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation.
  Clause 1 of the Bill provides for the establishment of a national advisory service for agriculture. This carries out the statement I made some little time ago concerning the Government's proposals for agricultural education. Before the war there was a dual system of advisory work, general and special, rather like a family practitioner and a Harley Street consultant. The general advisory services were
  run by the county councils as part of their agricultural education services and my department contributed 60 per cent. of their cost. The specialist services were run by the university Departments of Agriculture and agricultural colleges and the salaries of their staffs were paid wholly by the Exchequer. During the war the bulk of the staff who were serving on county and university units have been seconded to war agricultural executive committees. The unified direction of the advisory work we have been able to achieve has, in fact, played a conspicuous part in the food production campaign and

  65
  I hope that the establishment of a national service will consolidate that progress.
  The House will recall that the Luxmoore Committee which I appointed some Little time ago made two recommendations, one of which was that there should be a unified national advisory service, the other was that farm institute education should be taken away from the local authorities and placed under central control. We accepted the first recommendation about the national advisory service, but decided, despite the very great administrative advantages of putting farm institutes under central control, that in the interests of agriculture it is very desirable to try and integrate agricultural education with the whole educational system of the country. Therefore, we thought farm institute education should remain under the control of the local education authorities. No one will dispute, I am sure, the need for an adequate service of advice to agriculture. We want to try and ensure that everybody is in a position to know all about the latest developments in agricultural science. We also want to aim at this:—that the practice of the best farmers should become the practice of all. I have been encouraged in all this by the keenness of the farmers to take advantage of the additional advice that we have been able to give them, and also by their readiness to emulate the more progressive farmers and by that success which has attended their efforts. That provides a justification for the suggestion we are making that we should continue, in peace-time, what has proved to be so successful in war-time. My own personal view about which, I hope, I will be able to convince the House, is that this provision is right and that there will be no arguments raised against the proposal that we should have a national advisory service. For, if you are to have this national advisory service, it should be under the control of the Minister of Agriculture and should be paid for by the Exchequer.
  I know very well that some people may argue that on grounds of principle we should not do this because it is they say, an encroachment on the proper powers and functions of local authorities. But let me try to put the case to the House. There is widespread agreement in the country that agriculture, after this war, should not be allowed to sink into a position into which it descended after the last war. I hope and I also think
  66
  that there is agreement that we should take Measures which will involve some assurance of stability to the industry. There is also agreement that the nation, as a whole, is entitled to some guarantee of a measure of reasonable efficiency in the industry. Clearly, however, as long as the Minister of Agriculture is responsible to Parliament and also to the nation for the general welfare and efficiency of the industry the Measures which he regards as necessary to achieve that end should be his responsibility and must be on a national basis.
  In pre-war days, local authorities undertook advisory work as an extension of their ordinary functions in connection with agricultural education. Certain counties have, in the past, maintained an efficient service and it has been argued that if we only gave adequate additional money the same would be true everywhere. I would be the first to pay tribute to the work of individual councils in some parts of the country. But, unfortunately, they are in a minority. The proof of this is that there are only some dozen or so farm institutes in 62 counties. Past experience in this, and other fields, has shown that however generous Exchequer assistance is, it is almost impossible to ensure uniformity of standards. My experience of the last four years convinces me that for a national industry like agriculture we must have only one standard and that must be the best. Otherwise, I do not see how the Minister of Agriculture can come down, year after year, and ask the House for help. Moreover under a system of administration and assistance by separate county councils it is almost impossible to secure the necessary co-ordination between the general and the specialist advisory services. That was the position in the past.
  Now I come to the House and ask hon. Members to expand this service and to make it one of the major factors of our long-term agricultural policy. I am not, in any way, I hope, offending local authorities if I say that it is really not the function of local authorities to be concerned with the welfare of a great national industry like agriculture. I would like to stress a further point. We shall have, after the war, to meet increased competition for staff both from the Colonies and also from the great commercial firms and it is of the highest

  67
  importance that we should be able to attract to the service of agriculture the best of the technical and scientific brains that we have. I do not think any hon. Member, would disagree with me on that. Further, it is obvious that if you have a national service then there will be a very much better opportunity of fitting people in and making the best of any person's particular intellectual or practical qualifications and giving scope for promotion than if the whole thing were split into a number of tiny units. If it is organised on a national basis we can attract the best men.
  I had been encouraged to hope that I would have received the support of the County Councils Association, but in this I have been disappointed because the County Councils Association has not been able to make up its mind. But it is only fair to say that we have the support of a very large number of individual bodies comprised in that Association. The National Farmers Union is in favour of a unified national service and the great majority of individuals concerned with advisory work are in favour of the service being a national one rather than on a local basis. The House will see that in the Bill no special date is fixed for the establishment of the new service. I hope, personally, that we shall be able to bring it in very soon after the conclusion of the war in Europe, but, naturally, I do not want to do anything at this stage that will upset in any way the prosecution of the food production campaign by the dislocation of the present successful emergency arrangements. I am bringing the Bill in now so that we shall have the necessary power for the planning of the various conditions and details.
  I should like to be able to present a complete picture to the House of the sort of final set-up that we shall achieve. Again, hon. Members will realise that I cannot do that in detail at present. It is bound to be the subject of prolonged consideration. But it might be of some use if I tried to sketch, in brief outline, the sort of picture that I and my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education have in mind. First there will be an advisory service of a general nature on a county basis. Then, the counties will be grouped in provinces, and for each province, there will be a specialised ad-
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  visory service, and one officer at the head of the lot. It will be remembered that the Luxmoore Committee suggested that we should reduce the number of provinces from 13 to six. I think that is too drastic a reduction. We have not yet made up our minds on the final figure, but certainly we shall not reduce them on anything like so drastic a scale. It is my hope to be able to associate all sections of the industry with this advisory service at all levels, county, provincial and at Headquarters. Equally, the advisory work will have to be integrated closely with research work. We shall endeavour to do that through the Agricultural Improvement Council whose work is to make the results of research known to the ordinary farmer, and to suggest to the Agricultural Research Council subjects in which they think that research should be undertaken.
  I referred earlier to our decision to reject the Luxmoore proposal, in spite of the great administrative advantages it offered, that farm institutes should be put under central control. We did that because we want to keep agrcultural education closely integrated with the general body of education. It is equally important to ensure that agricultural education is not divorced from the service of advice and guidance given to the industry, and we shall be at pains to see that the agricultural education activities and the activities of the advisory service are not kept in separate watertight compartments. I hope that it will be possible in due course to provide for a steady interchange of teachers and personnel between the two services. Under the Education Bill, which has just received its Third Reading, the local authorities will be under compulsion to provide a service of agricultural education, and the most important feature of that of course will be a farm institute in every county. I hope in course of time we may be able to get more than one farm institute in the larger counties. Agricultural education will be grant aided by my Department, and with a system of differential grants I hope to make it possible for all counties to be in a position to provide the necessary educational facilities. Teaching will be a matter for the local education authority.
  Again, it is important that the teaching of purely agricultural subjects should be tied up with the practice of agriculture. Therefore, practical farm training and the

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  teaching of purely agricultural subjects will be subject to my supervision, as it will be subject to inspection by inspectors of my Department. I hope that local education authorities will make use of the members of the advisory service to teach in the farm institutes, because attach the greatest importance to the association of members of the advisory service with the teaching in the farm institutes. I am anxious that the young people should come to look on members of the advisory service as their friends and helpers in after life, and the sooner they get to know them by hearing them lecture in the farm institutes the better it will be. They will establish, at the start of their agricultural career, a close association in the farm institutes with the actual people, who will subsequently be responsible for helping them. I contemplate that each farm institute will be under the management of a management committee, appointed by the local education authority. I shall expect to be entitled to nominate some of these members. The head of the farm institute will also be appointed by the local education authority, but I shall expect to be consulted, and have a say in the choice of the man concerned. We are endeavouring, as far as possible, to integrate, and run the show jointly instead of separately.
  Apart from these major issues, Clause 1 and the Schedule to the Bill provide for the transfer of personnel to the new service, for the conditions of transfer and for the compensation of persons who might be adversely affected as a result of their post being abolished through the establishment of the new service. I believe that many of the officers engaged on advisory work felt doubts as to how they would be affected by the establishment of the new service. I hope that the provisions of the Bill will reassure them. Some of the officers eligible for transfer may still be wondering, however, after having read the Bill, at what rate of salary they will be transferred. I can only say that the grades and salary scales for the new service have still to be fixed. Some, doubtless, will gain, and I hope that no one will lose. I cannot give a binding undertaking, in every individual case, but I can say that it is our intention that no officer transferred shall enter the service at a lower rate of salary than that which he was receiving at the date of transfer. While I cannot give an absolutely binding guarantee, that
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  is my general intention. But I would add two riders to that. First, in the unlikely event of any question arising as to the implementation of this assurance, in the case of any transferred county council officers, we shall discuss the question with the National Association of Local Government Officers. Secondly, since I do not wish to be in the position of signing a blank cheque, I, for my part, shall expect to be consulted by county councils with regard to any increases of pay which they may contemplate giving to any officers coming within the scope of the transfer provisions between now and the date of transfer. I hope that, as guardians of the taxpayer, hon. Members will approve of that rider.
  One thing I should perhaps mention. I do not propose to include the provincial advisory economists in the new national advisory service. I think that the nature of advisory and investigational work in agricultural economics is very different from that of the ordinary advisory service. I think its members ought to be regarded as entirely independent and impartial. That is why they will be left out. I do not think it is a suitable function for a national advisory service to be called on to explain to the farmer how to keep his accounts or how to make money. We get into enough trouble now, as it is, and if I made myself responsible for telling every farmer how to make money, I should probably get into trouble with the farmer if he considered that the results were not in accordance with my advice.
  Clause 2 of the Bill deals with the second major proposal, namely, agricultural credit. This is a fairly complicated subject, and I apologise for going into some detail. I think the House will agree if I suggest that long-term credit is required in agriculture, to enable farmers to purchase their farms at reasonable rates of interest, and also to enable the modernisation of buildings, and the provision of capital equipment to be carried out. Modernisation of buildings, and the provision of additional capital equipment will, of course, be of the greatest importance after the war. Agriculture has been living on its capital for years before the war in the period of depression. Great arrears of maintenance are accumulating during the war. There is no doubt in my mind that a great deal of the improvement of livestock, to which I attach so much importance, and increased num-

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  bers of livestock, are dependent on better buildings. I am very anxious to see, as soon as labour and the necessary materials are available, a campaign for overtaking the arrears, in addition to the provision of things like water supply.
  British agriculture cannot obtain its capital in the same way as industry, by private borrowing from investors. It is essential, therefore, that there should be some national body which can raise money at reasonable rates of interest to which the farmer can apply. Such a body—the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation—was established by the Agricultural Credits Act, 1928. The object of the Agricultural Credits Act was to enable the corporation to make loans, to quote the terms of the Act,
  "on terms most favourable to the borrowers."
  The corporation obtained their funds by the issue of long-term debentures to the general public. If, therefore, the Corporation are to lend on favourable terms, they have to borrow on favourable terms also. This means that their debentures have to be secured and have the status of trustee stock. To attain this, the 1928 Act provided that a mortgage loan should not exceed two-thirds of the value of the property. The second safeguard is provided by the corporation's marginal fund, which consists of the corporation's share capital and reserves, together with a Government guarantee fund. Under the 1928 Act the Minister of Agriculture was authorised to make advances to this guarantee fund free of interest for 60 years up to an amount not exceeding the paid-up share capital of the corporation, and subject to a maximum of £750,000. The memorandum of association of the corporation provides that the total amount of the outstanding debentures of the corporation shall not exceed ten times this marginal fund.
  The share capital and the marginal fund together now amount to £1,300,000. The corporation is thus in a position to borrow and lend £13,000,000. The amount of debentures actually issued is £10,500,000. Up to 1932 the corporation was working satisfactorily. It was able to borrow at current rates and re-lend at rates which were considered favourable. In 1932 the situation was changed by the conversion of the Five Per Cent. War Loan to a 3½ per cent. basis. Unfortunately a con-
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  siderable amount of the debentures of the corporation were issued two months before this conversion took place. The new situation drastically restricted the activities of the corporation, because they could not lend to their new agricultural clients at lower rates of interest than that at which they had borrowed the debentures.
  They found themselves in this position, that they could neither lend the money they had obtained by their last issue of debentures, nor could they re-lend to farmers the money being paid back to them by people who had borrowed earlier, who now found that they could borrow from the banks at cheaper rates of interest. An attempt was made to overcome that in 1934, when the corporation reduced their interest on new loans to 4½ per cent., a rate which involved some loss. In order to meet that loss the Minister of Agriculture was given power in 1939 to make an annual contribution of £60,000 up to 1959, the date on which the bulk of the existing debentures can be redeemed. This held the position temporarily, but a rate of 4½ per cent. is, of course, too high today to enable the corporation to fulfil its primary purpose. Indeed, the volume of new business actually being done at present falls short of the amount that is being repaid by no less than £550,000 a year.
  It is considered that the rate of interest should be 3½ per cent. If the corporation were able to borrow from the public now, it could do so at a rate which would enable it to lend to borrowers at 3½ per cent. without making any call on public funds. But we have to deal with the existing debentures. In order to enable the corporation to reduce the rate of interest on future loans to 3½ per cent., the present Bill authorises me to increase the amount of Government assistance to £150,000 in any one year up to 1959. I hope that in this way it will be possible for the corporation to extend their business rapidly, to meet the urgent needs that I have just described.
  With this in mind, Sub-section (1) of Clause 2 enables me to make further advances to the guarantee fund, up to a total of £2,500,000. These advances will be made as and when required by the volume of business. The maximum figure will thus enable the corporation to lend up to £31,500,000 as against £13,000,000 hitherto, The total amount of loans out-

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  standing is a little over £7,000,000. That is about £24,500,000 new money that we are going to make available. I hope that, with this reduction in the rate of interest, we shall be able to get a considerable increase in the amount of business done. The benefit will accrue almost wholly to the agricultural industry. Dividends on the share capital of the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation were limited, under the original Statute, to 5 per cent., cumulative. We propose to make it 3½ per cent. per annum, non-cumulative, as long as any Government advance to the guarantee fund remains outstanding. We propose to increase the number of Government directors on the Board. Hitherto, there has been one director nominated by the Treasury; we propose to add two more, nominated by the Minister of Agriculture. I hope that this will make a substantial contribution to the re-establishment of the capital equipment of agriculture in the time to come.
  Mr. Turton: Will Clause 2 apply to existing loans, and will the farmer who is now paying 5 per cent. get a reduction?
  Mr. Hudson: My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will give a full answer to that; I think that those farmers will be entitled to pay off the loans, at a redemption fee. Clause 3 is intended to give effect to a unanimous recommendation of the Agricultural Wages Board, agreed by the three parties, the men, the employers and the independent members. It will give the Board power to fix a minimum time rate for piece-workers, and to give holidays with pay. Everybody wants to do that, but, for technical reasons, under the existing Act, the Board have not got the power.
  Clause 4 extends the lime subsidy for another three years. I do not think anyone would deny the great benefits that have accrued from the lime subsidy. There is no doubt that the increased amount of other fertilisers made available in the last four years would not have had the effect which they did have but for the application of lime. The amount of lime used has increased from 300,000 tons in 1936–37 to over 4,000,000 tons in 1942–43. We shall have to continue food production, on a very large scale for at least another four years, and I regard the extension of the lime subsidy as an essential part of the four-year plan.
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  Clause 5 deals with water. It implements one of the proposals of the recent White Paper. The present water supply arrangements, as the House knows, enable me to give a grant of 50 per cent. for laying water to farms and farm buildings. This enables a grant to be given for independent water-supply schemes, and for the tapping of water undertakers' mains to supply water to farms and farm buildings. More than 6,200 schemes, at an estimated total cost of £1,200,000, have been approved for grant-aid since 1941, and the number of applications for grant is increasing rapidly. No grant has hitherto been payable for a domestic water supply.
  Perhaps I might interrupt myself at this point to answer the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton), just now. The answer is that any borrower may repay the existing loans at a fee of 5 per cent. It is frequently natural and desirable to extend a water-supply scheme to cover the cottages and the farmhouses, besides the farm buildings and the farm itself. It will be possible to do that under this Clause. But it would not be desirable to approve a grant for an independent supply if there was a reasonable prospect of a public supply becoming available under the Rural Water Supplies Bill. Therefore, where it seems probable that the public water undertaking will bring water within reach in a reasonable time, the grant will not be paid under this Bill. The object of this Bill is mainly to supplement the proposals in the Rural Water Supplies Bill. The House will remember that we warned the public that it would not be possible to lay on public supplies to isolated groups of buildings or isolated farms; and where it will not be possible to obtain a public supply, it will be possible to obtain it under this Bill. This is a supplementary Measure.
  Sir R. W. Smith: Why is Clause 5 not in the Water Supplies Bill, instead of in this Bill? It seems unnecessary to have separate Bills dealing with exactly the same subject.
  Mr. Hudson: If the premise of my hon. Friend were correct, I should agree; but this Bill does not deal with exactly the same subject; it deals with a different subject. The Rural Water Supplies Bill deals with the provision of water by public undertakings. This Bill extends

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  existing powers which I already possess, to enable me to make good a deficiency.
  Mr. David Grenfell: Will the right hon. Gentleman make that quite dear as he goes on?
  Mr. Hudson: I am afraid I have been an unconscionably long time already.
  Mr. Grenfell: I have to speak after this, and I would like to know whether the proposal is to give to the farmer an opportunity of providing his own supply, with assistance from an undertaking now in operation in the area?
  Mr. Hudson: The Measure which I in-traduced-in 1941 was brought in because, going around the country, I found such a large number of cases where food production was being hindered for lack of water. There was no probability of the undertaking extending their mains, and no obligation on the water undertakings to provide water for agriculture. The only Ailing for me to do was to give a grant there water was laid on to the farms. We propose to remedy that, position now, by assisting in the laying on of water, not only to farmhouses and cottages, but, also for industry and agriculture, where it is reasonable. But there will be cases where it would not be reasonable to ask an undertaking to lay on mains for isolated groups of houses and cottages. Those are the cases which will not be covered by the Rural Water Supplies Bill.
  Mr. Clement Davies: This Bill deals with private supplies, and the Bill with which we shall deal on Thursday deals with public supplies; is that so?
  Mr. Hudson: Yes. I do not know whether it is in Order to mention a Bill which has not yet had its Second Reading.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Charles Williams): It is probably not in Order, but it would seem reasonable that, if this Bill covers one side of the question of water supply, the Minister should explain that side of it. But we must not enlarge that into a general discussion on water supply.
  Mr. Hudson: The Rural Water Supplies Bill, as hon. Members will find, provides only for the extension of mains, and
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  not for the connection between the main and the house.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is exactly the sort of question I think we must not go into on this occasion. But I think that the Minister, from a wide point of view, is right in explaining how water affects the farms under this Bill.
  Mr. Hudson: I am grateful for your Ruling Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I was doubtful how the Rule affected me, and that was why I raised the point. The Rural Water Supplies Bill provides only for the mains. This Bill provides for the connection between the mains and the farms, and, equally important, between the mains and the land—drinking troughs for cattle, and so on. This Bill provides for a 50 per cent, grant.
  Mr. Riley: The Minister, under this Clause, will have power to grant up to 50 per cent. of the cost of any approved extension. Will the other 50 per cent. be a liability of the occupier, or of the owner?
  Mr. Hudson: It will be a liability of the owner, but, in the majority of cases, I anticipate, the occupiers will be only too glad to get it, and, therefore, they will be willing to pay interest.
  Clause 6 extends the licensing of bulls to boars. I understand that that meets with the approval of all sections of the industry. Clause 7 deals with a purely technical matter, namely, the period during which betterment can be claimed from the owners of land where we have carried out improvements. We have found that, owing to the great complications in regard to valuations and so on, and the shortage of staff, this takes longer than we anticipated. The Clause is retrospective. That is somewhat unusual, but I hope the House will agree that it ought to be retrospective. The owner has had the advantage of these improvements all the time, and I think the taxpayer would justifiably complain if, owing to unforeseen complications, such as the shortage of staff, the taxpayer was stopped from recovering from the owner public money which had been spent to his advantage. Clause 8 applies this Bill to Scotland, with suitable modifications. Clause 9 provides that the Bill shall not extend to Northern Ireland, except in relation to the lime subsidy. I apologise for having dealt with the

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  matter for so long, but I think this Bill, despite its Title, does contain two provisions which will be of lasting and permanent benefit to agriculture and some other minor provisions which will be useful.
  Mr. Driberg: May I ask the Minister a question? Does Clause 1 of this Bill represent all that we can expect from the Government in respect of agricultural education for the present, and is it to be merely one of a number of miscellaneous provisions, or is there to be a comprehensive scheme embracing research as well as teaching and advice, nationally directed but locally administered?
  Mr. Hudson: I think the answer to that is that, together with the Education Bill, it provides me and my right hon. Friend with the necessary wide powers and I think they may be taken to cover all branches of farm work. It will be a matter of time, as we get the staff, to fill in the details, but I do not anticipate that there is anything we want to do, that we cannot do under the existing Bill.
  Mr. Driberg: But will research be integrated?
  Mr. Hudson: Oh, definitely.
  Mr. David Grenfell: I think it is incumbent upon me to say, on behalf of this side of the House, that we welcome this Bill in its general intent and particularly in its provisions. It is a very good thing indeed when we come to prepare for agricultural development, and the continuance of the wonderful record of agriculture during the war into the post-war period, to recognise that there are certain essential things to be done. I will not say that this Bill is comprehensive enough, I will not say that it is generous enough, and I will not say that it is a perfect supplement or complement to what has already been done. But we must recognise that, by the operation of machinery that is now being completed, and by the operation of war-time agriculture, an astounding thing has happened in our countryside, and no one will grudge a large measure of credit to the Minister, his Parliamentary Secretary, and also to those responsible in Scotland, for the organisation of this industry for its wartime task. We knew that we had a
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  wonderful site for farming operations, and that we were very fortunate people in that we possessed the best soil in Europe, and, perhaps, something else, which is now becoming to be appreciated more and more—a better disposition and distribution of the essential minerals for the growth and quality of the crops than other lands whose agricultural operations have sometimes been in competition with our own. We recognise that we have suffered because of a lack of national interest in this great national industry, and I welcome very much the proposals which are now being made.
  I am not sure that the Minister satisfies me in regard to Clause 1 of this Bill. He is proposing to set up, responsible to himself and more or less under his control, a national advisory committee, removed further from the county authorities which have hitherto maintained close contacts with, and a large measure of responsibility for, and control of, the work of the agricultural committees. I am not sure that that should be done without further consultation. I think it is important, because success in agriculture, above all things, depends upon carrying to the individual farmer, and not only to the individual farmer but to the organisations to which he belongs, the territorial organisation which has knowledge of the different problems of different kinds of agriculture, and a great deal of pride in its specialist knowledge of these operations. There is a tremendous difference between farming on one side of this country and farming on the other, between farming in the North and the South, and, while it may be an advantage to have some kind of national concert between authorities who play a part in agriculture, I think it would be highly advantageous—though I do not see any signs in this Clause of it—if the county councils were to retain the place they had in the past.
  I am also a little doubtful about the provincial authority. The Minister said he had raised the number of provincial bodies to a figure somewhere between six and 13. We have 52 counties in England and Wales, and about 30 in Scotland, and one would like to see the kind of provincial organisation which is to be intermediate between the national and the county council authorities. I am sure that great care will be required to decide what counties are to be joined together

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  in a provincial authority. The Minister said something with which I agree about the need for adding to the number and ensuring the proper development of the agricultural industry I think we have failed in the past largely because there was no instruction given in agriculture, and the fanner received instruction only from his own father, in a kind of traditional belief in the efficacy of methods which have now proved inadequate. We know now that farming has been raised immensely in skill and science in recent years, and I would like to believe that this development will become more marked still.
  I was glad to hear that the Minister's minimum is one for every county, but is not his maximum. I feel sure that there are areas where, with very great advantage, the numbers could be vastly increased. I remember that, 40 years ago, I was in one of the Dominions. I was not an agriculturist, but I was intensely interested in the work done on an experimental farm in Canada which I visited very often. I saw the immense value of demonstrations of the care of stock and the treatment of crops, and I saw the immense interest which was taken in them by the farmers. Farmers for miles around looked upon that experimental farm as their own class-room and testing ground, and as a place where soils and seeds were examined for the benefit of all the farming population. I believe that that is absolutely vital, and that this advisory committee should have regard, not only to food and agricultural practice, but to good scientific organisation and to a very minute scientific association with the various problems in all forms of agriculture. I am intensely interested in farming. I represent a large number of small farms and I know how much can be done, and how big a contribution these people are making, but the point of application must be that this kind of organisation for the maintenance of the industry must be a sympathetic and understanding control of agriculture. We must guard against mechanising it too much; a system of control that is intimate and by way of local contact is highly advantageous.
  Clause 2, we must confess, is long overdue. This Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, which we set up in 1928, 16 years ago, has failed. It has not car-
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  ried out our expectations. It is true that we have lent somewhere about £10,000,000 at a high rate of interest, having regard to agricultural returns, and on conditions not conducive to borrowing by the small man. We now find that it has come to an end. The fund, which amounts to £1,300,000—the right hon. Gentleman will correct me if I am wrong—multiplied ten times, has been the pool from which loans and mortgages could be made. The total extent of this great pool of resources was £13,000,000, but I understand that only £10,000,000 have been made use of and that borrowing has come to an end. We need now to start this borrowing process for the circulation of the money made available, and I think this is a very good thing. I did not catch the figure which the Minister proposes—
  Mr. Hudson: £31,000,000.
  Mr. Grenfell: That is a very large sum. I thought £10,000,000 to £13,000,000 was small, because of the very fact that if the importance of agriculture is to be maintained there must be a very considerable measure of recapitalisation of the industry. We are doing that in this convenient way by inviting the responsibility to be shared between the occupier and the owner of the land, and this corporation should provide sufficient guarantees that everybody will be fairly treated in these transactions.
  I am an enthusiast on the next Clause. I did venture to make a speech in this House many yars ago, long before the lime subsidy had been agreed. The backbone of England is lime. In Scotland there is an abundance of lime and in South Wales there is an abundance of lime, and this natural
  material which is so valuable for agricultural purposes has been neglected in the past owing to transport difficulties and lack of capital. I am very glad that the Minister was able to give the report he has given to-day on past consumption of lime, and I am sure that nobody in this House who realises the advantage of lime to agricultural land will grudge this additional provision. The lime subsidy, I understand, is £4,000,000 a year. It is a large sum of money to be spent in such a way but it will represent full value. I welcome this and I hope that the price will be made low enough—that is arranged for in this Bill—to enable a small farmer, and particu-

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  larly the distant farmer, who is far away from a railway station and sometimes far away from the lime, to have all his difficulties studied.
  Next, I want to talk about water. I have been a student of dairy-farming, in a small way, in the part of the country to which I belong. I know that the Minister was down in Pembrokeshire some time ago, and I was told that he was very favourably impressed with what he saw there. There is very good farming there, and there are natural conditions which make for health, but one of the things which has been found in that part of the country, where the soil is good, is that, even if you have, ordinarily, a generous rainfall, there are occasions when you may not have water enough for the use of the farmers.
  I am very glad to see this kind of thing. It is not a big thing. I think that the big thing will come on later, and I hope that it will be even larger than is expected. I hope that the Rural Water Supplies Bill will make a real job of it this time. If the Bill is not perfect we must try to improve it when it comes before the House. Here is something that is more local and on a smaller scale, but it is essential to farming. There is no possibility of having healthy stock unless there is an abundant water supply. Some of the revelations in the Press the other day of the shocking conditions in the countryside and the terrible hardships suffered by individual farmers staggered people in the towns. Even if there be water in a district, it is often too expensive for a farmer to provide a water supply for himself. This Bill gives a chance to a farmer who is a long distance from a water supply to obtain water for his stock. I was present at the Debate on water supply and I heard one of my colleagues describe his early impressions of carrying water. I too remember, when a boy, seeing women and children in summer-time carrying many hundredweights of water for a distance of a quarter or half a mile. I remember the drought year of 1893, when people in the whole of the countryside spent almost all their time carrying water. I must again congratulate the Minister upon bringing in this Bill. It may look like a collection of bits and pieces—it is a miscellaneous Bill—but they are all essential and have my full concurrence, with only one reservation regarding the position of local and
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  county organisations. I heartily welcome the Bill.
  Major Sir Derrick Gunston: I would like to join the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell) in congratulating the Minister on his speech and on the introduction of this Bill. This is not a very large Bill, but often the small Bills do much more useful work than the large ones. I was at a meeting the other day and heard a farmer say that the Minister of Agriculture was not very tactful. I replied that I would rather have prosperity than tact, and I think we would all agree that the Minister has played a great part, as has also the Secretary of State for Scotland, in bringing prosperity to agriculture. The Minister was lucky in that he went in to bat on a good wicket, when many other Ministers might have sat on the splice, but he kept the score board going all the time, and in this, and in other Bills, he has been successful because he is at the head of a very good team. I would like to pay a tribute to the right hon. Gentleman the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, who is the chairman of one of the sub-committees on which I happen to sit and does very valuable work. He and his Noble Friend the other Joint Parliamentary Secretary are a very fine team. They are not only interested in agriculture, but have a love of sport, and I hope that to-morrow they may find themselves somewhere in the Eastern Counties and have a successful time.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Charles Williams): I hope that the House will not wander into discussing that sort of thing, whatever the Minister may do tomorrow.
  Sir D. Gunston: I was just having a preliminary canter and I apologise. I was saying that the body
  which they have got together has done much in regard to agriculture. That brings me to Clause r, which sets up an advisory committee. The great success of the Ministry of Agriculture in this war has been to realise the value of modern scientific knowledge. This is largely due to the very good team work which the Minister of Agriculture has done in the country. As the hon. Member for Gower pointed out, there are many farmers who farm their land very well and have continued the tradition from father to son, but who do not always make the

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  best use of the latest scientific knowledge. But they are doing so during the war, largely owing to the drive of the Minister. One of the difficulties in the past was that scientific knowledge in agriculture was always looked upon as something to do with education. The Minister in this Bill is making a really big advance in setting up a national advisory service, because it is psychological change. Lots of farmers think that it is merely a question of agricultural colleges and so on. Every other industry in the country has scientific advisers, but not for education. The great value of this Bill will be the setting up of this advisory service; it is going to marry the practical and the technical sides. I do not believe it can be done in any way unless we get away from the old psychology of the past, on the part of farmers who, suspected what might be called college farming. That is why the Minister is right in setting up a national service, and it ought to be possible to bring in the county councils so that they can all work together.
  I congratulate the Minister upon extending the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation in Clause 2. I understand that it will apply to land owners and farmers. The greatest value will be to the farmer who wants to own his own land. Many farmers have become tenant farmers because they have not sufficient capital to enable them to own the land. The landlord, on the whole, does his best, but he cannot afford to put in all these improvements. He may not agree with the particular line of agriculture in which the tenant is particularly interested. If a tenant farmer, under the generous long-term loans scheme, buys his farm, he will be enabled to undertake the latest improvements to the land. I am very glad that the period for the lime grant has been extended. I agree with what the hon. Member for Gower said on Clause 5 with regard to rural water supplies. I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether, seeing that under the existing Act the grant is 50 per cent., the grant will still be 50 per cent. I suppose that one of the great advantages will be that it will fill a gap which is left open by the Rural Water Supplies Bill.
  In regard to Clause 6, which extends the Live Stock (Licensing of Bulls) Act to pigs, can the Minister say whether
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  boars and sows have to be pedigree or need not be pedigree? Under the present Act the animals have to be registered. I hope the Minister will be a little bolder and will say that bulls will not be licensed after a certain period unless they are pedigree. I have visited Newfoundland, and on the way there I met many American and Canadian farmers who had visited this country and were impressed with our farming but not impressed with our stock. They had always looked upon this country as the home of pedigree stock, as we had many fine herds, but the general stock throughout the country was a shock to them. I do not think that we shall remedy that situation until we tackle the problem in the right way. One day, when the time is ripe, the Minister will have to make an announcement that registration will only be given to pedigree stock. Will the Parliamentary Secretary say whether the same conditions that apply to bulls will apply to pigs or whether something is to be done to encourage the breeding of pedigree pigs? I think that this is a very useful Bill and it ought to be welcomed by the farmers generally.
  Major Sir Goronwy Owen (Carnarvon): The Minister mentioned that this was the fifth Bill of this kind that had been introduced during the war. That is a very good sign that this House and the country generally are taking a far greater interest in agriculture than has been the case for a very long time. I hope that these small Bills are an earnest that the Government will in future, after the war, devote far more attention to this most vital industry. I am in full agreement with all the Clauses of the Bill, except, perhaps, the first Clause. I welcome, as other speakers have done, the extension of the lime subsidy for another three years and the extension of the subsidy towards the provision of water, not merely for the land and buildings but also for the dwelling houses. The sum, unfortunately, is very small and, I am afraid, will cover only a very few schemes and will not bring about a supply of water to as many farmhouses and cottages as one would like to see, even in conjunction with the other Bill that is being introduced.
  I notice that Clause 8 excepts Scotland from Clause 1, which means that the national advisory service will not apply to Scotland. I should like a Clause in the Bill which also excepted Wales from this

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  provision. The conditions in Wales, the customs, climate and soil differ very largely from those in other parts of the country. Further, the people have their own language, and to many in the farming community the usual language is Welsh. Had we been fortunate enough to have a Secretary of State for Wales we should have been excepted from Clause 1. I appeal to the Minister to consider whether it is not possible to exclude Wales in the same way as Scotland is excluded, because we already have the nucleus for a proper advisory service in the three agricultural departments of the University Colleges of Bangor, Aberystwyth and Cardiff. I speak with a great deal of personal know; ledge of the agricultural departments at Bangor and Aberystwyth, the latter of which is well-known throughout the world for the work it has done in the production of grasses. I cannot speak with the same knowledge of the agricultural department of Cardiff, but I say without hesitation that the two agricultural departments of which I know personally are second to none in the country or the world.
  Some of our county councils have, in the same way, given a great deal of attention and valuable advice to farmers over a long period of years. They have established an intimacy and a contact which may very easily be destroyed by Clause 1 of this Bill. I am told that the suggestion in the Luxmoore Report is that Wales and Monmouthshire should be one province under this scheme. I am not sure that that would be a good thing from the point of view of the very South and the very North of Wales. We should have a council for Wales, with proper financial help, and it would, I feel certain, carry out this work far more advantageously than is likely to happen under this scheme. I feel doubtful about it not merely so far as it applies to Wales, but as far as it applies to the rest of England. It has been said to-day that the county councils have not been doing their work satisfactorily. That may be true, and the reason is that this work of giving advice to farmers was not an obligatory duty on the county councils but was a permissive task. If the truth were admitted, I am afraid that the Ministry of Agriculture has not been too helpful to county councils in this work, and it is not fair to blame them now for not having done something which they were not encouraged to do.
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  It is said in the Memorandum to the Bill that a good deal more advisory work has been done during the war. That is true, but how has it been done? In my part of the world the war agricultural executive committee, which consists of local farmers known to every other farmer in the county as being the leading farmers, have arranged what they call fire-side chats. They have done excellent service in this way. The chairman and other members of the committee have gone round in the winter nights accompanied by their officials, and have held meetings of anything from 20 to 50 in farm-house kitchens round the fire-side. Farmers have been encouraged to ask questions and members of the committee and the officials have given them the help they needed. I am rather afraid that this new body, which is to be set up with headquarters in Whitehall, will be too far away and will lose intimate contact with the farmer in his home and district. I fear that it will, too, hamper the initiative of the individual service officer.
  Who are the people who give advice to farmers to-day? They principally come from agricultural schools. We have one in my county at Madryn Castle, and there is another over the border at Llysfasi. The officials at these schools have been available to the farmers, who know them intimately. They can go to these officials and speak to them in their own language and ask them questions. I know most of the staff of the agricultural department at Bangor University College, and I know their readiness at all times to help the farmer in his difficulty in every possible way. What will happen under the proposed scheme? Under the existing scheme, if something extraordinary happens on a farm, it is reported to the specialist experts at the college in Bangor, and they can immediately make investigations. If it becomes a case for headquarters in London, it will take too long a time for anything to be done, and the farmers will lose the psychological advantage of having the thing done immediately when it happens. Another point is the adverse effect this scheme will have on the approach to farmers. Officials with the law behind them are not popular with farmers. Information given by farmers is not likely to be as full or even as accurate as when the investigator belongs to the county or

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  to a local institution like one of the universities. Such a man is regarded as a friend to every farmer in the area. Farmers as class are very conservative. They do not always vote Conservative, but they are conservative in their views and customs.
  It is doubtful whether farmers will repose as much confidence in Government officials as they have been prepared to give to officials of the county council and the staffs of the agricultural departments of the university colleges. Let me give an example. I was talking to a leading farmer this week-end and he was telling me that this would be one of the great difficulties. He has a very big flock of sheep, and he has neighbours also with big flocks. He told me that the veterinary surgeon stationed at Carnarvon had done a great deal of valuable service. I am giving this in favour of the Minister, for he is a direct official of the Ministry. He is very helpful where animal diseases are concerned. I asked him about the fatalities among lambs during this season. This farmer said that if an official asked a farmer about the fatalities, he would say there were one or two here and there. They are, in fact, far greater than that, and I would put them as high at 25 per cent. very often. If the farmer will not say to an official, whom he knows, who is a friend and in whom he has perfect confidence what the complete facts are, he is still less likely to do it to a Government official appointed by Whitehall.
  In the Luxmoore Report it is said that it will be possible under this scheme to transfer advisory officers from one province to another and that it will be a good thing for the officers. That may be true, but will it be a good thing from the point of view of the farmer? The essential question is not whether it will be good for the officer to give him a chance for promotion, but whether this scheme will make the farmer farm his land better, produce more food and give greater service to the country in wartime and in peace. If the Minister would allocate a proportion of the extra money which is to be spend on this service to appoint further officers attached to the universities and county councils in Wales, it would be a far more effective way of bringing about what we all desire to see. I think the aim of this country should
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  be to have clean land and clean cattle, by means of which we shall get a healthy stock population.
  Sir Ernest Shepperson: Like all others who have spoken so far in this Debate, I desire to commend my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture for bringing forward this Bill, and particularly to thank him for Clause 1, which concerns the setting up of a National Agricultural Advisory Service. I think it is very essential to the farmer to-day that he should have some organisation to which he can go for advice. But although I commend the Minister for introducing this service I regret the stoppage of the activities, in that connection, of the county councils and the agricultural colleges. I hope the Ministry will be able still to maintain those activities, particularly the activities of the universities. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Carnarvon (Sir G. Owen) has referred to the excellent work being done in the interests of scientific agriculture by a university in his part of Wales. I would like to tell him and the House that we have another university
  which has done excellent work in that respect, namely, the University of Cambridge. I should be very sorry, indeed, if, by this Bill, we stopped in any way the activities of that university, because I have been in touch with it for some years, as one who farms not far away from it, and I know its use not only to myself but to all agriculturists in the neighbourhood.
  I note that it is proposed to extend the lime subsidy for a further period of one year. The necessity for the extended use of lime for the land has been stressed today but I would remind hon. Members that not all land requires lime. We must know where there is a deficiency of lime in the soil and
  that can only be known by the farmer if he has his soil analysed. Therefore, I think it would be right for every farmer to have his land analysed before applying the various artificial manures and fertilisers. The bodies which do this analysis are the universities. Cambridge University has been analysing soil in that area for some time, and I beg the Minister not to do anything which would diminish that work. I welcome the Clause which deals with the increase of resources of the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, and I would like to ask a question with regard to the Clause which

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  deals with the recovery of expenses of drainage works or of improving ways over fen-land. If a farmer pays a contribution towards fen roads will that contribution
  be accepted by the Inland Revenue authorities as a farm cost? That is a point of importance to agriculturists in the fen country, where farmers are compelled to grow more and more potatoes and wheat and transport on good roads is necessary. If the contribution to these roads is to be regarded as a capital expense it will hinder the development of these fen roads and various drainage works. I would also like further information about what is meant by the Clause which deals with time rates and piece-work. I have read it two or three times but I have found it a little difficult to understand. In conclusion, may I once more whole-heartedly welcome this Bill?
  Sir Patrick Hannon: My hon. Friend spoke about the admirable activities of the Agricultural Research Committee at Cambridge University. Is there anything in this Measure which prevents such activities being carried on?
  Sir E. Shepperson: I am hoping that there is not, but if my hon. Friend will look at the Financial Memorandum he will see these words:
  "It provides an option of transfer to the service of the Ministry to persons employed in connection with advisory work by County Councils or by Universities and Agricultural Colleges in such a way as to safeguard the position of officers who might otherwise lose their employment as the result of the transfer of functions. …".
  Those words seem to mean that the functions of the universities are to be transferred. I hope that that is not so, and I should be pleased if the Parliamentary Secretary could state that the functions of universities in this direction will be maintained under the Bill.
  Mr. Turton: The Minister, in bringing in this Bill, seems to have feared that the House would regard it as an encroachment on the sphere of local authorities. Personally, I think there is a great difference between what this Bill is setting out to do and what other Measures that have been introduced by other Ministers, and, indeed, by my right hon. Friend himself, have set out to do. This advisory service is something which is much wider in its sphere than any ambit
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  of a local authority's area. It is centred on the universities, and in our part of the country we look for our advisory service to Leeds, though we never look to Leeds for any advice or guidance in the way of local administration. Therefore, I think the Minister is to be congratulated on setting up this advisory service and administering centrally this task of agriculture. It is, I believe, a foundation for this post-war agricultural policy, about which all of us are so eager to hear. My right hon. Friend is building up the men who will put into action that post-war agricultural policy and I think it is vital that he should be able to have full and free choice of selection of the best men to carry out that work. I hope that in carrying it out he will enlist the support of the local authorities. While the Minister is to be the central director there is certainly room, if he so directs, for him to have attached to his advisory committees members of local authorities who are engaged with the agricultural committees of the local authorities. I hope my right hon. Friend will consider that when he is carrying out the provisions of this Bill.
  I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us later how these advisory committees will work after the war, in the counties, with the existing county committees. Surely bodies known as "war agricultural executive committees" cannot exist under that name in peace-time. We have now come to the stage when we are thinking over the future of agriculture, when we ought to receive a little enlightenment about whom these advisory officials will work with in the counties after the war. I am sure that no Minister can give full details at the moment, because to do so would be a revelation of post-war policy. But we can, at this stage, be told whether the Minister thinks there should be some form of county agricultural committee under him or whether he would rather that they were retained under the county. I imagine the reply will be the former and not the latter. It seems to me that in advisory matters, where the Minister can be guide, philosopher and friend, he should have the officials and should be so regarded by the farmers. I think he is regarded by them as guide, philosopher and friend, notwithstanding certain little differences of opinion that there may be in Kent and other parts of the country. That is the

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  important function of a Minister of Agriculture, that he should guide the agriculturist—farmer and farm worker.
  That is where I would draw a distinction between the function of the central Government in advisory matters and in penal matters. The Government should not interfere too far with their executive powers and act as a policeman. You do not want the same man to come round and at one moment act as an adviser and the next as a policeman. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to say what are the plans of the Government in that respect. I think you can do a great deal more with your official if you regard him merely as a man who is going to tell you what the Government want and advise you how to carry it out. If you suspect that he is thinking out whether he shall deprive you of your farm, he immediately loses your confidence. I hope the Minister will avoid that pitfall in any plan that he has.
  Clause 2 seems to involve a very considerable sum by way of advance and guarantee, amounting to some £3,250,000, though it is not very easy to work it out. That is a very considerable sum when the total amount involved is, we gather, only £10,000,000. The attempt to make credit facilities cheap will, I am sure, be praised in all quarters of the House but it would be a great pity if the benefits were confined merely to the fortunate people who want to borrow now and excluded those unfortunate people who were persuaded by previous Governments to go in for this mortgage scheme in the past. There are a large number of farmers who, on the Government's advice, borrowed money, as late as 1934, at a rate of interest of something like 5¼ per cent. It is not easy to succeed in farming operations with that millstone round your neck. The Minister, in reply to a question from me, said he was going to ensure, under the Bill, that they could redeem their mortgages, if, I gathered, they paid the penalty to this Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, of 5 per cent. of the capital then outstanding.
  Mr. Hudson: I said a fee.
  Mr. Turton: I should describe the fee as a penalty, rather like the penalty under some of the old Rent Acts. If we are to pay up by way of advance and
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  guarantee such a large sum as £3,250,000, can we not be a little more generous to these men who have, for something like 10 years been paying such a high rate of interest? If the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation is being so favoured by the Government, cannot it reduce what the Minister described as a fee and I describe as a penalty from five to one per cent.? They borrowed money from the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation believing it was the Government's advice and encouragement that they should do so and that they were going to get cheap money because the Government were backing the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation. The truth is that they have not got cheap money from that corporation. The Government converted the War Loan directly after the last issue of debentures and, owing to the Government's action, these rates of interest have been unconscionably harsh. I hope the Clause will be looked at very carefully. It ought to be easy for farmers to borrow money at present, even without the help of the Bill, because money is cheap and the credit of agriculture, thanks to Government policy, is good. The value of the Clause should be to help those who are at present paying heavy mortgages and, what is far more important, to secure to agriculturists in the years to come, when money is no longer cheap, that they shall have cheap credit facilities.
  I should like to congratulate the Government on the Bill. With regard to the Clause that refers to the Improvement of Livestock Act, which will have to be renamed in its new form, can the Parliamentary Secretary's say whether the only pigs to be licensed will be pedigree pigs? It is important that we should know that. I believe there are sufficiently good pedigree boars and that you could confine the Bill to pedigree boars, but we must take guidance from the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary.
  Mr. Richards: I am sure the Minister must be feeling very pleased with the reception that the Bill has had. He told us this was the fifth that he had introduced during the war. I do not think we have any grounds to quarrel with the provisions which have been outlined, except perhaps the first. That will, possibly, be a, bone of contention. I entirely agree with the last speaker, who advocated a review of the position of farmers who

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  borrowed at a high rate of interest, in view of the fact that the farmers of the future are going to have so much better terms. It is encouraging to find that, in future, it will be possible, in any one year, to borrow up to a sum of £34,000,000, as compared with something like £10,000,000. There is no doubt that the re-equipment of agricultural premises particularly is a problem of very great importance from every point of view. The Minister is possibly interested in the animals on the farm, but some of are interested in the people too. I could never quite understand why cottages should be subject to some kind of control, while no control is exercised over farmhouses, which are scandalously dilapitated. We welcome very much the extension of the provision that has been made whereby farmers may in future borrow in order that they may put agriculture, from that point of view, on a better footing. We welcome, too, the extension of the lime subsidy, which has proved of real benefit. Anyone who goes about the country will be much encouraged to find it again presenting the appearance that it presented some 40 years ago, when there was regular periodical liming. One is very glad to think that this kind of encouragement is to be continued.
  With regard to Clause 1, which has been the subject of some adverse comment, I should like to understand the set-up as it
  was outlined by the Minister. I agree that there are considerable variations between county and county and I am not surprised that he has attempted to get the slow going counties to move faster and to bring them up to the standard of the better ones. One rejoices very much to hear that it is the intention of the Ministry at no distant time to have a Farm Institute in each county, and possibly more than one in some counties. Agricultural education in the counties has so far been indifferently carried on under agricultural committees. They are particularly proud of their powers but I do not know that they have always exercised them as wisely and extensively as they could. I presume that is one of the reasons why the old agricultural committees were not employed when the war began. New committees of an entirely different character had to be created and the old agricultural committees have gone into the background. They have generally appointed what the Minister referred to
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  as a sort of general adviser. In the
  first instance he was a lecturer, and in most counties he has continued to go round lecturing, particularly during the wintertime. Some have been very successful and others less successful. I do not know that the advice he has been able to give has amounted to a very great deal in many cases. He has had, of course, some training in agriculture but all his time was taken up with giving popular lectures on general agriculture, and I do not think that many farmers went to the county organiser, as we called him, for advice. It is true that in those counties where you have a Farm Institute you have a considerably higher standard, and you hive there an opportunity for giving advice, particularly to young farmers. I am not surprised that the Minister is very anxious that that kind of work should be much more thoroughly done by far better trained people on the whole and, of course, that kind of work in future is going to be intimately linked up with the educational work of the counties and that is all to the good.
  When I come to the next stage, namely, specialist advice, which the Minister outlines in his scheme, I do not feel equally happy. A friend of mine pointed out the work that is being done by the university colleges and by the universities in this respect. I would like to ask the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary what will be the exact position of these specialists with regard to research work, because I think that the great benefit of the close attachment there has been so far between the agricultural advisers and the universities is the very essence of the business.
  We must remember that through the universities and the university colleges, young farmers take their degree in agriculture. That will go on. In addition to taking a degree in agriculture under present conditions at the university and university colleges, there are these specialists of the Board of Agriculture engaged in research and in giving the benefit of their advice to the farmers. I cannot conceive of anything better than young farmers occasionally attending the universities to be lectured by people engaged in research. In my opinion that is the very essence of university life, and it is a great benefit to ordinary agriculturists that they should meet the specialist at his work, see him at his bench so to speak.

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  In the case of North Wales, at one of the colleges with which I am associated, research work is being done there very successfully on the question of diseases in sheep. Nearly all the farmers in North Wales know that at that university college there are one or two specialists intimately interested in sheep diseases, and consequently they go along to the college in order to see how the work is done. Are the new specialists—who, I presume, will be appointed for provinces, although we have not yet had details as to the extent of the provinces—going to carry on research in new laboratories away from the universities? Is it not really advisable to keep up this very vital contact which these people have established between the university, on the one hand, and the farming community on the other? I know my farmer friend will excuse my saying that it is not always the case that the farmer is very keen on "book larnin'." It has taken some time to persuade the people in my county to send their boys to the university. Though that change has undoubtedly taken place, some
  of the best work in the university has been done by the advisers to the Ministry who are attached to the university staff. Unless the Minister has a greatly superior system, I should be very sorry to see that link broken between the university and the farmer.
  There is another point which seems to me rather difficult. Am I to understand that, after a certain period of time, all those at present employed either by the county council on agricultural work, or by the university, are to be advised to apply for a post under the new organisation? Or am I misreading the Bill altogether? It is a very delicate matter because, as I think has already been pointed out, it may mean, speaking generally, that the standard obtained by the general agricultural adviser in some counties is not the kind of standard which the Minister is trying to achieve, and he would find considerable hesitation in re-employing a man who has been employed by the county council. I do not think that will apply in the case of the university, where the standard is generally higher, but it does leave upon my mind an impression of the possibility of unfair dealing. I know that compensation is being offered under the Bill but it is a very delicate matter.
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  I welcome the Bill very warmly. I have pointed out some of the things that cause me a little trouble but, apart from these, I hope that we shall see the Bill on the Statute Book, and that agriculture everywhere in this country will have at its service a most competent, capable advisory body which will always be at the beck and call of the farmer.
  Major Leighton: We all welcome any Bill which has for its object the benefit of agriculture, and I hope this Bill is a forerunner of others which the Minister will eventually put before the House and that, by degrees, he will be able to let the farming community know exactly what is wanted after the war. That, of course, is what we are all asking.
  As regards Clause 1, I understand the Minister to say that it has the good will of the National Farmers' Union and that, although he has not yet the good will of the county councils, he hopes to get it. As far as this Clause is concerned, I feel the first thing to look at is: what value will it be to agriculture? I am sure it will be of the greatest value if it has the hearty co-operation of the farmers. The one thing the farmer dreads is farming from Whitehall. I know that is not the intention, but the Minister, I think, said he was not out to tell the farmer how he should make his farm pay. After all, that is what a farmer is for. It seems to me that the advisory committee has not only to show the result of experiment and research, but also to show that it is a practical proposition. For that reason I hope there will be some method by which it will be possible to have, in the different counties, experimental plots where it can be shown that, by certain actions at certain seasons, farming is a practical proposition.
  I have come across an attitude that the farmer does not want to be told anything; that he is the best farmer in the world, and resents the idea that he is not efficient. I do not think the Minister ever implied in his speeches in the country that our farming is inefficient. It is not inefficient, but one is never too old to learn something and the whole point is, no matter how efficient a farmer is, he can always be more efficient, if he has the latest and best knowledge which experts and science can produce. I hope we shall see this Advisory Council

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  develop, and that it will have the cooperation of the Farmers Union, which I think it has, for I think the Farmers Union have heartily endorsed this Clause.
  As far as Clause 2 is concerned, I understood from the Minister that interest will be at the rate of 3½ per cent. Added to that, I presume, is the sinking fund. I would like that to be made clear. We should all like the rate to be lower; however, it is lower than it was before, and one must be thankful for that. An enormous amount of money will be required in the future to re-equip the farms and put them into a condition for postwar farming. Does this Clause mean that borrowing cannot take place until after the war? I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to make that quite clear. I think the Money Resolution says that it is to meet the requirements of agriculture immediately after the end of the war in Europe. Does that mean that if a farmer wants to borrow money now, he cannot do it? I should like to have an answer to that question. Of course, there are instances where people would like to put up new buildings now, although it is difficult to do so. Then, again, it is a question of whether it is wise to put up buildings now, when people do not know for certain what the farm is to be used for in future. It is no good putting up a new Dutch barn if, after the war, there is not going to be the same amount of arable on that farm. That, again, is a reason why I would like to know exactly how farms are to be used after the war. I should like to make one remark about Clause 3. The Minister did not say much about it, and I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to give us some more details on how we are to fix piece rates. I do not see how it will be possible to do that without the help of the local wages committee. It seems to me that piece-rates are extraordinarily difficult to deal with, because conditions vary so much on every farm. Would it vary on different fields on the same farm and between light land and heavy land? I am also puzzled about the question of "Holidays with pay." Who is to pay for those holidays? I sometimes employ a piece-work man to do hedging or ditching. Am I to provide his holidays with pay, if I employ him only for a short time? If not, who is to pay? He
  may be employed by a dozen different people in the course of a year.
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  I should like that point to be explained. Of course, one welcomes the extension along those lines.
  Another point about which I wanted to ask was the supplying of water to agricultural land and to farmhouses and cottages. I was not clear from the Minister's remarks exactly how far that went. He said that it was a question of supplying from the main to the farm or cottages. That is very wide. I have laid the water on to every cottage and farm which I own. I should be delighted to do something, but it is mostly done. If I had known this was coming along, I would not have done it. I should like to know to what extent this supply is to be carried out. Is it a question of distance from the main or what? I should like to have some further explanation of that point. I do not think I have anything more to say on the Bill except to express the hope that the Minister will give us some more Measures like it.
  Mr. Snadden: The right hon. Gentleman in his very able speech said that this was the fifth Agricultural (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. I feel we are becoming rather accustomed to dealing with agricultural affairs through these omnibus Measures. I should like to repeat, in connection with this Bill, something which I said on a previous occasion—that the time is now ripe, if not overdue, when we should have a consolidating Act which would tidy up all these miscellaneous provisions and Measures. With the many cross references and with so many miscellaneous provisions in Acts it is almost impossible to understand what the true state of the law is. I hope the Minister will consider that proposal sympathetically. A Consolidation Act would be of enormous help to all those interested in agriculture, including the Minister's own advisers in Whitehall and at the Scottish Office.
  To me, this Bill contains a number of beneficial changes for agriculture, both in Scotland and in England. I do not find myself objecting to anything in it, and I intend only to make a few very general remarks. There is a marked difference as between England and Scotland in the provisions of the Bill. In Clause 1, the Minister launches forth his ambitious scheme, setting up a national advisory service and bringing under his

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  control, as far as I am able to understaind it, all agricultural education in the area covered by his administration, whereas, we in Scotland, are content to carry on on the existing basis. I know of course, that our conditions in Scotland are somewhat different. I do not think it is any exaggeration to say that we have been in advance of England in the sphere of agricultural education. Our agricultural education is not administered through the local authorities, but that does not mean that there is not enormous room for improvement, and I would like to make the point that, alhough we are missed out of this Clause, we are equally anxious about the future structure of agricultural education in Scotland.
  I must confess that I am a little envious of the enormous jump—a very correct increase—from £300,000 to £1,500,000 for which the right hon. Gentleman provides under this Bill, and I would ask the Scottish Minister to be good enough to assure Scottish Members that a comparable effort to improve our Scottish system will be made without undue delay. I seem to recollect—not very clearly, perhaps, but the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—that he set up a special committee under Lord Alness for the purpose of inquiring into Scottish organisation curricula and external services, and I think it will be helpful in this Debate, in order to remove misunderstanding, if the Secretary of State could tell us something about the progress which has been made by that committee; when he expects it to submit its report, and whether he can give us an assurance that legislation will follow without undue delay.
  In regard to Clause 2, which I welcome, extending the credit facilities to the two corporations, I must say, as an agriculturist myself, that in pre-war days a could never find any real evidence that agriculture was denied reasonable and normal facilities when it wanted them. The real trouble was that the agricultural industry in general, and the farmer in particular, was not credit-worthy owing to depressed prices. We hope that the low prices he got then are going to be improved upon; that he will get better prices in the future. But even given recent prices, the
  conditions which, it would appear we are going to face after
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  this war, will be vastly different. If we are to continue with some form of supervision after this war, in the shape of agricultural executive committees, it is obvious that, if these committees are to have power to order or insist upon a man doing something regarding his land or property, then it is only reasonable that the Government should see that proper facilities are given to him so that he can borrow money on easy terms. Similarly, in Scotland it the recommendations of the Balfour Committee, not yet debated in this House, and those of the De La Warr Committee for England and Wales are to be carried out, ample credit on easy terms will provide the necessary lubricant for the smooth working of these schemes.
  There is only one other Clause upon which I wish to comment and that is Clause 6. The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) and, I understand, the hon. and gallant Member for Thornbury (Major Sir. D. Gunston) made reference to this Clause. Although perhaps it does not look very important, I consider this to be one of the most important Clauses in the Bill for the reason that after this war the predominance of livestock in the future economy of British farming is just about the only thing we can be certain of, and I hope that the Minister, in formulating future policy in connection with agriculture, will base that future policy on a just reward for quality production, I feel that if we do not get this into our minds now, that we have to produce something of the very highest quality after this war, we are in for a very difficult time. In order to secure that quality, it may even be necessary to adopt drastic measures. For example, we might have to impose a penalty upon a producer who constantly sells produce of inferior quality. Therefore, I consider that Clause 6, which aims at the improvement in quality of a very important industry, the pig industry, through the licensing of boars by adopting the provisions of the Improvement of Livestock Act, 1931, is an important and desirable advance. I would remind the House that this is not a new demand at all. In 1932 the Pig Industry Council and the Reorganisation Commission for Pig Products both recommended legislation on the lines contained in this Bill. Here I would like to support what has been put forward by the two hon. Members to whom I have

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  referred, that the Minister should consider, as soon as practicable, the restricting of licences to registered and pedigree boars as being in the best interests of the pig industry as a whole. Those who know the pig trade realise that, normally, a large proportion of pig keepers buy non-pedigree and mongrel boars at prices just a shade over the carcase value. We have, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, the same trouble in the dairy industry. Any old bull will do to put a cow in calf. It is the same in the pig industry. Anything will do to put a sow in pig. That is a serious situation. Mongrel boars, like mongrel bulls, may look all right. In fact, many commercial pig keepers do not seem to understand what the difference between the pedigree and non-pedigree animal is, but, believe me, the experienced breeder knows the difference. The mongrel is a hybrid and his capacity to transmit his qualities which outwardly appear good is extremely uncertain, whereas the pedigree animal has in its blood all that scientific breeding has been able to put there over generations—that indefinable something which comes from careful breeding based upon uniformity and performance.
  We have a great market in this country for both pork and bacon. It is, therefore, most important that boars of breeds suitable for each class of trade should be encouraged. To rely on the mongrel, even to a limited extent, is to delay that segregation of pork and bacon types, so desirable if we are to compete successfully with the carefully-graded produce of overseas countries.
  Mr. Price: I am glad that the Minister has taken as his text on this Bill that very important Luxmoore Report and has incorporated several proposals from this Report. I think he is right in adopting the line that, in all matters concerning general education in agriculture, the service must become a national service. The war agricultural executive committees of the counties have already superseded those advisory services which formerly were run by county councils, and what this Bill does is to fix what is to be the position in the post-war world, which has already become a reality in existing war-time conditions. As many other speakers have mentioned before—and one cannot emphasise it too much—if agriculture is to succeed after the war, in very different
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  conditions from those which obtain today, the hothouse conditions of war time, it will be even more necessary to demand that efficiency and the latest methods and scientific knowledge shall be applied to the industry.
  For that reason, I am a little disturbed to find that the economic side of the advisory service is not coming under the Minister's control. I understood him to say that this concerned too much the direct profit-making side of the industry, and that he could not be responsible for it. One of the most important sides of advisory work is economic work, particularly that of teaching farmers methods of costing and accounts-keeping, which have been adopted in the various universities and agricultural research stations. What I want to know is will that continue as before? I presume it will; in that case, that will remain part of what the right hon. Gentleman calls the specialist service and will not come under the general schemes which he is taking over under the national service.
  Mr. Hudson: There is a real danger in using technical terms in this respect. The new general service will be under central direction, and the universities will be given a grant of equivalent salaries. I should not like to be suspected of bringing any influence to bear in any way on this question of costing and accounts.
  Mr. Price: I am very glad for that assurance from the Minister. It sets my mind at rest. Now I know we can be assured that this service will continue and it is very important that it should continue, so far as local contact is concerned. The county councils do not like the idea of this service being taken away from them, and later in the week something is coming on in this House, in which the same principle is involved. But if this service is taken away from the county councils, their opportunities for expansion and work in other spheres will extend. That is my answer to those who fear central control in this one sphere. They will find that in other spheres their activities will be expanded.
  So far as Clause 2 is concerned, I welcome its provisions. Anyone who studies the possibilities of the post-war agricultural world will realise that very large sums will have to be invested in the industry to keep up the equipment, that

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  is the landlords fixtures, as opposed to the tenant farmers movable equipment. As things are to-day, however, taxation being what it is and with various expenses such as insurance and so on, there is little left for maintenance and upkeep. I should not be surprised if a great many properties are found to be in such a position financially after the war that they will not be able to borrow even under this Act. Clearly there are going to come, in many estates, dispersal and sale and taking over properties by public corporations, or the State. But I have no objection to using the provisions of this Bill for those properties that are financially sound, and that will be able to borrow on these very reasonable terms, to maintain the landlord's fixtures so that it will be possible for a tenant farmer to function, as is necessary in these times.
  I want to say a word about Clause 3, I am very glad that piece workers are being brought in under the same condition as time workers, even as far as making it possible for them to qualify for holidays. However I do not understand how it will apply in those cases—perhaps not so numerous to-day, when everyone is working, but which did apply before the war—in which there was a type of piece worker, usually an elderly man, who put in so many days of work a week, but did not necessarily work a full year. He might work at hedge laying, threshing, thatching, or providing water supplies, but he did not have a definite full-time employment. If he is doing that work in peacetime, I do not quite see how he can qualify for holidays; perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary can explain that when he replies. With reference to the application of Clause 5 to supplying water for remote rural districts, I understand the position is that a Bill will be introduced this week which will enable local authorities to extend, at public expense, the main water supplies, and that this Bill will make it possible for grants to be given for extensions from these mains to outlying farms and cottages, and a grant being given to the owner if he pays a certain proportion of the expenses. If that is not so—and it was not quite clear whether it was so from the Minister's speech—perhaps the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will comment on that.
  There is one other point concening Clause 6 on the question of licensing of
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  boars. That is extremely important and I am glad that the Minister is taking steps to do what was done in the Livestock Improvement Act of 1931. I was on the Standing Committee concerned with that Act, and I remember some of the discussions we had upstairs during the passage of the Bill. The feeling was then expressed that you should not be too careful to consider only show points of pedigree bulls. It was said then that one must consider the utility aspects of breeding as well. Many pedigree herds are not based on utility principles but have had brought into their qualifications too many points relating to winning victories in the show ring. I quite agree that we must take, as a basis, pedigree stock, but we must be quite sure what kind that stock really is. It must be the best utility that will bring the type of animal required and not just let it win prizes in the show rings. It must be for the best kind of commercial objects. In the case of boars we require an animal to produce a type of bacon wanted in the bacon factories, or a pig to produce the best type of pork required. That should be the main consideration. With these remarks, I hope this Bill will have a speedy passage through the House.
  Major McCallum: I realise that this Bill refers only in part to Scotland and as many other Members for English constituencies wish to speak I will not detain the House for more than a few minutes. I have listened to the greater part of the Debate and with interest to the many speeches regarding the difficulties in connection with agricultural education in England. I feel with the hon. Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden) that perhaps we in Scotland are slightly more fortunate in that respect, but if, at some future time, the Secretary of State for Scotland proposes to bring in legislation to improve our agricultural education, I should like to say here that the advisory work done by the agricultural colleges in Scotland, particularly those agricultural colleges in the West and North of Scotland, is extremely valuable to-day. I am sure that the
  advice given by the various executive officers and the staffs and lecturers sent out by those two colleges, are welcomed by farmers in the Highlands of Scotland. I only ask that we should not draw too strict
  a line between the areas worked by these colleges in say

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  the North and those in the West of Scotland. I remember on one occasion I was hoping to enlist the services of a very distinguished professor from one of these colleges but I was told "no," he cannot come to that particular area, because it is an area belonging to one of the other colleges. That is rather a narrow interpretation.
  Of the details of this Bill there are only two Clauses on which I would like to say a word, namely, Clause 4 and Clause 5. I would ask how they apply to Scotland. Farmers in Scotland, generally welcome the extension of the time for which a grant subsidy for lime is to be given, but so difficult is it in the Western Highlands, and particularly the Islands on the West coast of Scotland, to obtain supplies of lime that I feel the three years' extension may well be used up in solving the transport and supply difficulties, so that the benefits in this case will not apply to that part of the country. I hope my right hon. Friend will be able to do something immediately to solve those very difficult transport and supply problems in regard to lime supply.
  There is a question I want to put to my right hon. Friend concerning Clause 5, dealing with water supply, the assistance which is to be given in putting in water from the mains to our farms or agricultural cottages. I was not quite clear, and I gather that my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) and certain other hon. Members were not quite clear, on this point. I take it from the Bill that this only refers to local authority water undertakings. I am rather wondering, and many people in the Highlands of Scotland are wondering, what is the position regarding private estates. There are a large number of private estates in the Highlands of Scotland which have their own water supply. Will this Clause assist those Highland owners in putting water into some of the cottages that have not yet got it? Most of the farms have it, but not all the cottages. I rather gathered that that will be so, and I am sure that that assent by my right hon. Friend will be extremely welcome to many people in that part of Scotland. I am sure that this Bill will be warmly welcomed in Scotland in general.
  The Secretary, of State for Scotland (Mr. T. Johnston): May I for one moment intervene in this discussion with the
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  object of replying to two points raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Argyll (Major MacCallum) and the hon. Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden)? The hon. and gallant Member for Argyll asked whether these grants for water supplies will be given in cases where the water does not come from a public undertaking. The answer is, Yes. Indeed, that is what the whole of this is granted for. It is, as the Minister repeatedly said to-day, to augment, to fill up the gaps in the Water Undertakings Bill which will be coming before this House at a later date this week. The hon. and gallant Member for Argyll asked about land development, and whether there was a sufficient quantity of lime. The answer is, unfortunately, No. We will never have sufficient quantities of lime available, but my hon. and gallant Friend will be delighted, I am sure, to know that since the outbreak of war we have, in the United Kingdom, increased our lime supplies from 228,000 tons to 550,000 tons.
  Mr. Hudson: In Scotland alone. The total is about 4,000,000 in the United Kingdom.
  Mr. Johnston: I am speaking of deliveries to Scotland.
  Mr. Sloan: The Ministers had better go and have a meeting.
  Mr. Johnston: Production of lime in Scotland rose in the period between 1938–39 and 1943–44 from 137,000 tons to 365,000 tons. It is a splendid figure, and in the county of Argyll, which my hon. and gallant Friend represents, the grants-in-aid of what are really transport difficulties, which would otherwise make the use of lime almost impossible for many small farmers, are very substantial indeed, and enable the farmers in North Argyll to get their lime at about 21s. 10d. per ton.
  The hon. Member for West Perth asked about our agricultural education system. The reason why we are not including it in this Bill is that we have an inquiry now proceeding, under the chairmanship of Lord Alness, into the whole system of agricultural education in Scotland, particularly the relationship between the agricultural colleges, the universities, the farm institutes and the farming world generally. It would be wholly inappro-

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  priate to make any provision in this Bill for agricultural education until the results of that inquiry are known. Our system in Scotland is pretty much what is envisaged in this Bill. We now have three agricultural colleges, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen, each of them covering wide areas of territory, each with a county organiser within their area, and each of them with the widest and closest possible contacts with the agricultural community. We do not now, and have not had, agricultural education conducted under the aegis of the county councils in Scotland. Those, I think were the points raised by the Scottish Members.
  Mr. Snadden: Can my right hon. Friend say when that Report will be produced?
  Mr. Johnston: I really cannot say. I know they are very busily engaged taking evidence now. It will not be unduly delayed, but when a Committee of that kind is in session it is a great mistake to embarrass them.
  General Sir George Jeffreys: Intervening for one moment I would like to say that I welcome this Bill. It is only on one or two of its Clauses that I have any remarks to make. I believe that the advisory service as outlined in Clause 1 will be of immense value. I very greatly welcome it, but I wonder whether it could not be administered with equal efficiency by the county council, the Minister making regulations and setting standards for the work and the Ministry's inspectors seeing that the regulations are complied with, and the standards attained. Why not, in fact, have a similar arrangement to that which is proposed as regards farm institutes and agricultural education? I know my right hon. Friend said that he was not very pleased at having to accept a different system, but I do suggest it is a system which might work well, and has in the case of general education, for instance, worked extremely well. It is a different matter with agricultural education, I know, but is there not a very considerable analogy between the two? I do not see why what works well in the matter of general education should not work well also in the matter of agricultural education and the agricultural advisory services; that is to say, the county councils,
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  as in general education, administering by means of committees partly composed of county council members, partly of nominated and co-opted members with special experience, in this case of agriculture, all working under the instructions of the Ministry and working to given standards, and subject to inspection by the Ministry's inspectors.
  As regards staff, I suggest the analogy might be considered of the police forces, which, although they are locally administered, serve under conditions laid down by the Home Office regarding appointments, duties, pay and pensions, and are subject to inspection by Home Office inspectors. I would suggest, moreover, that local criticism in county councils is of value. I think it is an unfortunate fact, although I realise it is necessary in war time, that the war agricultural executive committees are not subject to any local criticism, or criticism in county councils. I believe that far from being embarrassed in any way by such criticism, they would very often be strengthened and helped. I know that my right hon. Friend is more than dubious on that point, but at the same time, I believe it to be none the less a fact. We all recognise that these war agricultural executive committees have done, and are doing, admirable work, but they would be something more than human if they did not occasionally make mistakes, and I think they would very often be helped by experienced local criticism if they were subject to it in county councils.
  I suggest that our local government system is too valuable a feature of our national life for us not to make the utmost use of it on all possible occasions. It seems to me to offer a suitable means of devolution of business, and it ought to be made use of in every possible way. Local conditions vary, and local agricultural conditions vary, and very often they can be dealt with more effectively locally than from the centre. For instance, it is a commonplace to say that there are different classes of land and different climates, with consequent variations of agricultural methods and cropping. I think they can very often be more suitably and easily dealt with locally than from the centre, but I do agree most strongly that there should be adequate central regulation and inspection I would agree, too, that under the present system, many councils have not dealt effi-

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  ciently with agricultural matters, agricultural instruction and agricultural advice, but I cannot see any reason why they should not do so under a proper system of regulation such as I have suggested.
  One more small point is whether there is any possibility of difficulties arising over superannuation contributions and conditions in the taking over of a large number of what are at present county council officials and servants. Is it proposed that county councils should continue to maintain any advisory staff, or is it suggested that the whole of the advisory staffs should pass to the Ministry and be entirely centrally controlled? My right hon. Friend mentioned in his speech that he contemplated frequent interchange of advisory and educational staffs with county council staffs. I wonder whether he would elaborate that and explain exactly how such interchanges should take place and what advisory staff, if any, there will be left to county councils?
  As regards Clause 2, dealing with the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation arrangements, it seems to me that these are entirely satisfactory in every way, and should be welcomed by everybody concerned. Clause 5, dealing with water arrangements, is, it seems to me, very much to be welcomed. I think that one or two hon. Members have read difficulties or intricacies into this Clause which in fact do not exist. It is, as I understand it, an extension of the system which already prevails whereby grants can be given for the laying on of water to agricultural land, but at present they cannot be extended to the laying on of water to agricultural houses and buildings.
  I have had some experience of that sort of thing. I was laying on water to certain fields, with the advice and concurrence of the war agricultural committee, and the pipe ran within, literally, a few yards of the farmhouse and adjacent buildings. I got a general contract for laying that water on to the house and to the fields. The amount for laying it on to the house was a very small proportion of the total, but, in applying for grant, that portion had to be very carefully eliminated. That seems very unreasonable, because the house is an important part of the farm, as are the buildings. It is a great improvement to provide that water may be laid on for the farm, whether it be for the buildings or for the fields.
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  With regard to the Clause dealing with the licensing of boars, I do not think that in the past the licensing of bulls has been sufficiently strict. Very often, when licences have been refused appeals have been successful, although the animals were quite unsuitable. I hope that the arrangements will be tightened up, and that, in
  the interests of our breeding stock, as few exceptions as possible will be allowed. I am only too painfully aware that my right hon. Friend does not share my view about the possible utility of county councils and their participation in these schemes, but I hope that he will consider the matter and see his way to allow the county councils to have a little more say under proper conditions.
  Sir Dymoke White: The Minister told us that the county advisory staff are to be taken over by his, Department, and that the farm institutes are to be transferred from the county agricultural committees to the county committees operating under the new Ministry of Education. I see some danger in allowing a certain amount of ordinary education to be carried on through the institutes. In some counties there is one farm institute, and in many counties there is none. It is suggested that in the larger counties we may have two—that is none too many. I hope that the Minister will see that what are commonly known as the three R's—or an extension of the three R's—are not taught in these farm institutes, but that the institutes are kept strictly to vocational subjects. At present a boy is liable to go to a farm institute at 16, and quite rightly, because, otherwise, he might lose the power of learning. But with the introduction of these continuation classes he should have his brain kept in such a state between the ages of 16 and 18 that he is receptive of learning still. We should concentrate on sending boys and girls to these farm institutes for a 12-months' course, from the age of 17 to 18. The question of continuation classes should not arise with the farm institutes. That would be just playing with the job. The lads and girls, having learnt part of their job—agriculture, horticulture, poultry-keeping, or dairying—on the farm, should then go to a farm institute for a 12-months' course, at a time when they would be in a condition really to benefit from the instruction. I want to

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  refer to the control of the staff under the county council. Clause 1 provides that
  "the applicant shall not be transferred under this Sub-section"
  from the county council to the Ministry's new service. That may cause hardship to some very good men. I have in mind one who before the war was headmaster of an institute, and who during the war has been doing excellent work under the county agricultural executive committee. If the county want to keep him, his line of action will be limited to farm institutes. I ask the Minister to consider that point very carefully. I want to refer to the provision, in Part I of the Schedule, that the county council are to be saddled with the payment of compensation to redundant staff. When the Minister puts up a new scheme, why should the county council carry the baby? We are not carrying out the scheme: the Minister is; and we object to paying compensation to staffs that are made redundant by the action of the Minister. Under Part II of the Schedule the Minister wants to make this new scheme fluid, from the universities to the research stations, and into the counties. He wants, I presume, to allow the staff to circulate between the universities, the research stations, and the counties But the superannuation arrangements will put a brake on easy interchange. I understand that the civil servants have their scheme. The men who are to be transferred from the county councils to the Ministry have another scheme, related to the Superannuation Act, 1935; and I understand that they are going to lose by that transfer. The university and agricultural college men come under another scheme, which I understand is called the Federated Scheme. I suggest that this matter should be looked into, in order to make the scheme a success.
  Sir William Wayland: I am rather concerned at the position which the war agricultural executive committees will occupy if the Minister is going to pinch most of their staff—that is, the county organisation staff. At the present time, the organisation staffs are the backbone of the war agricultural executive committees. They survey the farms and report to the committees, who act, generally speaking, upon their advice. If, for example, they have a complaint to make
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  about bad farming, then, perhaps, some members of the war agricultural executive committee may go and see the farm. It is the general rule, in my experience, that the committees rarely go near the farms, except when there is a complaint. Members of these staffs are very able and experienced men, and I have not the slightest doubt that the Minister would very much like to get them on his own staff, but I hope he will be merciful and not hold out too great a plum for them to pick, and that there will remain under the county committees an organisation staff sufficient to carry on their work. Another question comes into one's mind. If the Minister is going to organise this advisory service, where will the county council organising service come in? Will there be room for two? If not, and there is to be centralisation in Whitehall,
  that would be a mistake, in my opinion. I should like the Minister to consider this, because it is a very important matter. We rely upon the organising staffs of the county agricultural committees to give good advice, which the men are always able and willing to do.
  With regard to loans, of course, a loan is very welcome, and would be very welcome to the funds of the Corporation, but, naturally, it is only a drop in the ocean, and I hope to see it gradually raised to £100,000,000. The State would not always have to find £100,000,000. That would be repaid by the farmer, and I am glad to see that he will be able to borrow at 3½ per cent., and I am quite sure he would be able to repay that as long as we have fair prices for our farm produce. Concerning piece-work, there is very little piece work in the South, compared to what is produced. In the summer time no end of men used to come round asking for piece work. Now, if one comes wanting work, he much prefers time work and does not care for piece work. It is just the some with the gypsies, who used to like piece work. I found last year and the year before that I could not get gypsies to do piece work. They wanted time work, because they could work at their own speed.
  Concerning water supplies, I want to suggest to the Minister that he should give facilities for catching water, not by the ordinary catchment means, but such as we see in the hilly districts of the constituency which I represent and in the

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  neighbouring districts, where a considerable amount of corrugated iron—it would be much better if it were asbestos—is placed on the farm, with the proper apparatus for carrying the water away into a large reservoir. These hill farms need this catchment water. One sees this method mostly on the large farms, and I think it would be very helpful for small farmers in the hilly districts if they could be financed in order that these catchments might be built up.
  I congratulate the Minister on his decision about licences. I think the time is far overdue when boars should be licensed, and I agree with the hon. Member who spoke about licences being confined to pedigree boars. I was wanting to buy some piglets some months ago and had to go into the market for weeks. There were plenty of piglets there, but none which appealed to me or which might' e considered as strong young pigs. I think the sooner we are able to license only pedigree boars, which will take some time, of course, the better it will be for the pig and bacon industry. After all, we do not want to rely upon Denmark and Holland, as we used to do before the war, when we paid them millions of pounds for bacon and pork. We should try to keep that trade in our own country, and I believe we should be able to do it if we adopted a forward policy, not only in regard to licences, but in respect of the numbers of pigs.
  Lieut.-Commander Joynson-Hicks: I have been fortunate in hearing almost every speaker to-day, except those who spoke particularly in regard to Scotland, and I think everyone has extended a warm welcome to this Bill. I hope the Minister will not think that, because of the welcome which his Bill has received, interest in future legislation regarding agriculture is on the wane. I am quite sure that he will not be let off with a little Bill like this. What we are all looking forward to is the day when he really produces a charter for agriculture. There is one reason in particular why I welcome this Bill, and that is because it is particularly non-political. Almost every hon. Member who has spoken to-day has criticised the Bill in some respect or another, but not a single criticism has been directed upon party lines at all. I think that it is essential, for the future of agriculture, that we
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  should deal with it upon a national or non-party basis, and, in this respect, this little Bill certainly commends itself to me. I would call it a Bill of good principles, but I would not go so far as to extend my praise of it very much beyond that.
  If I might refer to one or two points which have already been mentioned, I should like to start with the licensing of boars, which is a very good principle, but which, as the hon. Member for Canterbury (Sir W. Wayland) said, does not go far enough. I beg the Minister to consider including a provision that boars should only be licensed if they arc pedigree boars. There is a great difference in this connection between boars and bulls, because, as we all know, the sow is a very much more prolific producer than the cow, and one can build up a pedigree stock of boars very rapidly indeed. If this provision is inserted in the Bill at the present time, and the Bill does not come into effective operation, as I understand it, until the Minister appoints a day, it will give the industry ample time to build up their pedigree stocks. I personally welcome the Clause as a further indication of the right hon. Gentleman's interest in the rehabilitation of the livestock industry of this country. I urge upon him the question of pedigree licensing. It has always struck me as being regrettable in this country, which is almost internationally regarded as the home of pedigree stock, and exports pedigree stock from which all other countries build up their herds, that we alone entirely disregard the importance of pedigree in our own normal production of livestock.
  I confess that I have become a bit more bemused over what the provisions of the Clause dealing with water supplies mean than I thought I was at the beginning of the Debate. Admirable as the intention is, and it is good in principle, the Clause does not avoid certain loopholes. I do not believe that, even taking any further methods already proposed into account, we shall still be able to ensure assistance for the laying on of a water supply to all agricultural buildings, cottages and land. I believe that is the object which the Minister has in mind, and I hope that it may be possible for us to have an assurance that that is to be achieved. I have in mind particularly one instance which, if I use it as an illustration, may make my point clear.

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  There is a case that I know in which water was laid on to a farm. It was in 1939, before the last Bill. It was laid
  on privately by the owner of the land From the main water supply. He wished that the water supply should be carried on to two farmhouses, 300 yards down the road, and the local supply company were prepared to do that and very glad to have their supply extended. It was going to be done, when they mentioned that it would cost the landowner £385. That put rather a different complexion on the matter, and these cottages are still not supplied with water. Would a case such as that come within the scope of this Bill? I do not think that it comes within the scope of any other Bill. There is a supply available from the farm, but it has not been laid on under any of the legislative provisions which have been made for the laying on of water to farms, and I believe it would not come within the scope of this Clause. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to reassure us that this Clause makes the laying on of water possible in the future, not taking into account other provisions that there may be in the offing.
  Mr. Loftus: Under the provisions for the housing of agricultural workers, many in my own county have been given substantial grants for the laying on of water to agricultural cottages.
  Lieut.-Commander Joynson-Hicks: That is one of the provisions I had in mind, but whether the cottages to which I have referred would come within such facilities I cannot say. I wish they did, as the instance I have quoted happens to be my own property. The next Clause to which I would like to refer is the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation Clause. We are all agreed that the additional facilities provided will be immensely beneficial. There is a point that I would like to make clear. We have talked about rather large figures. My right hon. Friend in his original speech, said that £31,000,000 would become available. It is most important from the point of view of farmers that it should not go out that that sum of £31,000,000 is a grant from the Government. I wish to emphasise that it is merely a loan and that the farmer is not gaining the benefit of any subsidy or anything of that sort in this connection. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Canter-
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  bury I do not believe that this total sum will be anything like sufficient to rehabilitate the industry as we should all wish after the war. We shall need much more money for this purpose. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget speech referred to the further appreciable financial assistance which it was proposed to give to agriculture through the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation. I understand that the whole of the intention that the Chancellor had in mind when making that speech is being implemented in this Bill. We ought to bear in mind that it is not an instalment of what we may hope to obtain in the future, but is the limit of our expectations in this regard.
  The reduction in interest is a matter
  which the farmer considers very important indeed. As has already been stated by hon. Members, many farmers have been crippled by the rate of interest they have had to pay to the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation. I have had great difficulty in working out the figures and I do not claim that they are necessarily correct. I hope sincerely that they are not, but, as I understand it, the aggregate sum made available for the reduction of the rate of interest represents a total sum, by way of interest, of about 10s. per annum per farm, if it is spread over the whole of the industry. I appreciate that every farmer would probably not avail himself of the facilities to borrow money from this source.
  Sir D. Gunston: Can my hon. and gallant Friend give the figure of how it would work out in regard to the farmers who have benefited under the Corporation?
  Lieut.-Commander Joynson-Hicks: No, Sir, unfortunately, I have not that figure. The Corporation is a private organisation and I have not seen any published figures which might cover the point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend. Possibly the Parliamentary Secretary might have such a figure and if he could give it I, as well as my hon. and gallant Friend, would be very glad to know how many borrowers there are who will share in this benefit in regard to reduction of interest. If we take the average figure, it represents an exceedingly insignificant amount to the industry. My feelings with regard to Clause r probably go further than those expressed by other hon. Members, but there, again, I believe the principle to be very good. As I understand it, the Clause

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  is intended to ensure that the results of the research carried out by the Government shall be made available to farmers. There is not the least doubt that farmers are now realising the value of research and the benefit which they have been obtaining from technical advice and from all the experiments which have been carried on. They are anxious to continue to receive advice, and the benefits of further experimentation.
  Where, to my mind, the Clause fails is in the way in which it is proposed to carry out the dissemination of advice and information. The only way in which it can be done effectively is for the results of the Ministry's research and advice to be conveyed to the county council authorities and not direct to the farmers. May I explain one reason why I think that should be the correct way? It is an acknowledged fact that agriculture has done very well indeed in the war. It is also acknowledged, I think, that a great deal of the improvement, of the success, which has been obtained by agriculture has resulted from close liaison and concentration of effort in the counties themselves. The spur has come through the county organisations under the direction of the Minister, who has contributed such very stirring appeals. In fact, I remember that quite early after I had the honour of being elected to this House I was informed by
  the Minister that the Ministry of Agriculture had not increased their technical staff during the war at all. That system has worked very well indeed, and I cannot understand why it should now be thought either necessary or desirable to scrap it and to inaugurate a new system whereby the Ministry concentrates in its own hands the whole of the national advisory service and cuts out the local concentrations of effort in the country.
  I have not been able to discover who wants this new system. I do not believe it is the county councils themselves. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned that they had not yet concluded their consideration of the matter, but, from what we can ascertain from the published reports of the County Councils Association, such recommendation to accept the schemes as was put forward by the sub-committee was a very half-hearted affair indeed, and even that was referred back. I think we can take it that the county councils as a whole do not want it; probably the only
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  ones that do want it are those who have failed to carry out any substantial advisory service at all—in fact the county councils which, in this respect, are the bad ones.
  Mr. Hudson: The majority.
  Lieut.-Commander Joynson-Hicks: The right hon. Gentleman says "the majority," but I do not think it will be found that the majority of county councils by any means desire this scheme. Certainly farmers do not want it. Farmers themselves have a horror of the "man from the Ministry." I was recently having a look at some small farms in my constituency and talked to one man who is doing very well indeed. He is not what you might call a conservative-minded farmer; he has only been in the industry for about seven or eight years, and is a foreigner to our part of the world, having come from the Tyneside. So, if anyone in the industry could be expected to be different from the ordinary run, it would be this particular man. We talked about this and about that, and we did not seem to be getting very far. Suddenly lie turned to me and said, "May I ask you a question?" I said, "Certainly." He said, "Who sent you down here?" I did not quite understand what he was getting at, and I replied, "What do you mean? Nobody has sent me down here." He said, "Oh yes, come on—which Government Department sent you down to see me?" If he was thinking that it was my right hon. Friend's Department, I was very flattered, though I do not know that my right hon. Friend would be.
  Anyhow, I laughed so heartily at the mere idea that I convinced him that I had not been sent down by any Government Department at all, and after that we got on famously. So long as he thought that I had anything to do with a Government Department he would not tell me a thing but, once convinced that I was not connected with a Ministry, he was perfectly prepared to show me everything that he had on the place and explain everything to me; in fact it was some time before I could get away. That is only an illustration of a point that is true, that a farmer will only respect and respond to advice from the local people whom he knows. He does not trust "the man from the Ministry," quite irrespective of who it may be.

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  In the light of this, let me quote to the right hon. Gentleman a few words, which I think are exceedingly relevant:
  "Power at the centre may be mischievous unless it is administered with understanding. Stir up laggard councils by all means, but let there be the very minimum of interference with the good local authorities, for they know the needs of their own districts better than officials in Whitehall."
  I think that is a singularly apt quotation. It comes from one of the leaders in this week's "Sunday Times," and I thought it was so apt to this particular proposal that I have ventured to quote it to the House.
  I was very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman emphasise the importance of continuity with regard to agricultural education, but I think that he will have great difficulty in ensuring continuity under this proposal. Agricultural education is, as we know, run by the local education authorities—the county council or the county borough council—and I fail to see how they are going to be able to run agricultural education if, in fact, the county agricultural advisers have been taken over by the Ministry, because all the lecturers, the specialists, the technicians whom they will want to teach agricultural education will no longer be their own people. The same point applies to our own experimental farms in the county. If the Ministry takes over our agricultural advisers, our technical farms will automatically be denuded of technical staffs, and I fail to see how the county councils can continue this very necessary and admirable function which they have been performing in the past.
  Mr. Hudson: I do not want to interrupt my hon. and gallant Friend but if he will do me the honour of reading my speech in HANSARD to-morrow, I think he will find that I explained this point.
  Lieut.-Commander Joynson-Hicks: I listened with the greatest attention to my right hon. Friend and it was because, after listening to him, the only way in which I could see he was going to do it was by ultimately taking over the schools and colleges himself from the Board of Education that I am venturing to ask if we may have further explanation.
  Mr. Hudson: I said I hoped and contemplated that the local education authorities, as far as agricultural educa-
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  tion was concerned—apart from the continuance or ordinary general education—would call freely on the services of my advisory staff.
  Lieut.-Commander Joynson-Hicks: That expresses a hope, but the local education authorities would, I think, feel very much happier if they could rely upon their own staffs, rather than on the hope of being able to obtain such lecturers and technicians as the Ministry of Agriculture are able to make available at any given time. To carry the matter still further, a youth graduates until he becomes a farmer and starts putting into practice the theories he has learned at agricultural and technical schools, farms, colleges and institutes. Surely, it would be desirable that the continuity should be complete and that he should be able to go back to the person who taught him his theory in order to obtain his advice in practice. So long as the county system obtains he can be sure of doing that, but if it becomes a national system, if these officers are switched from area to area, and are promoted and so on, then I suggest that the logical sequence of agricultural education will break down when applied in practice. I do not want to labour the point, but I wish to emphasise the importance, in applying the results of technical research in agriculture to individual farms, of filtering it through the local knowledge of local advisers. Any technical result which may be achieved by reason of experiment and so on will, if applied to Yorkshire, require an entirely different application from that which it will need if applied to Sussex, and the same is true of other areas of the country. Climate and custom go so much into agricultural production that it is absolutely essential, if this job is to be done successfully, that technical advice should be furnished by people with local knowledge and not by national advisers.
  Mrs. Beatrice Wright: I desire to raise a small point on Clause 5, which deals with the supply of water to farmhouses and cottages. Under this Clause provision for water supplies will not be made if water mains are likely to be extended, or local water undertakers intend to provide the necessary water. I want to ask my right hon. Friend whether he is satisfied that there will not be any unnecessary delay in the light of the new Bill dealing with water, which we are to

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  discuss later in the week? It is rather like two people going through a door simultaneously, each one bowing, to allow the other to precede him. I suggest that there might possibly be a hold-up, and I would ask my right hon. Friend to consider whether he should not step first through the door, rather than wait for the local authority to do so.
  I also want to ask the Minister whether he does not feel that this Clause might be the subject of a combined operation between himself and the Ministry of Fuel and Power. I have raised this question with him before, and in answer to a Parliamentary Question put by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member of Newbury (Brig.-General Clifton Brown) on 6th January, my right hon. Friend assured the House that he realised the necessity for extension of electricity for this purpose. My right hon. Friend has a limited amount of money with which to provide large numbers of isolated farms and cottages with a very necessary water supply, and those of us who represent rural constituencies, where the need for this water is very great, would like to see the money well and efficiently expended. It is cheaper to take electricity than water, and once having obtained electricity, you can make use of local water supplies efficiently, and I wonder whether it is not possible for this subsidy to be used to provide electricity to farms in order to pump water.
  Many Members have welcomed the Bill and I wish to add my welcome. This question of water is the only one I desire to raise, except to commend my right hon. Friend on his provisions to extend agricultural education in the country and to ask whether he will give every possible cooperative effort, through these advisory committees, to young farmers' clubs which, as he is aware, are doing very fine work. I would also be grateful to know what proportion of the 50 per cent. grant already in existence has been used to provide local bore-holes or local supplies of water. If I am right, that a large percentage of that money has already been expended in the provision and use of local water, then I would be right in asking the Minister to look into the possibility of extending this further by using it in relation to electricity, and not independent of electricity.
  Major York: My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chichester
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  (Lieut.-Commander Joynson-Hicks) made a strong attack, at great length, on the administration which the Minister of Agriculture proposes to set up. I was rather surprised at that attack, partly because I cannot believe that my hon. and gallant Friend knows the history of agricultural education as it has been in the past, and partly because it is quite untrue to say that the farmers of this country do not want this arrangement. If we can judge what farmers, generally, want, I think we should be able to take the word of the organised farmers of this country who are in favour of this arrangement. I think it is doing a disservice to the National Farmers Union and to farmers generally to disclaim this national advisory service on behalf of farmers.
  It is a fact that agricultural education has had a somewhat unfortunate career, mainly on account of the economic position of the industry. In Yorkshire, my own county, we had a disagreement which hindered agricultural education to some extent and although we are reasonably wealthy the amount of work which was being done was very small, except for the universities; and I would pay the highest tribute to Leeds University for the work which they have done in the agricultural world. The new service includes, I think, inspectors, teachers and advisers but I am not clear how each of these three classes of people will be used and how they are to link up with the farms. Several hon. Members have discussed the dissemination of information and I would like to ask: By whom is that dissemination to be practised? By the advisers, and if so, how, by the teachers, or by the inspectors, although, presumably, not the inspectors? If the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will allow me to cast this fly over him, I would like to ask him whether this is not the first Spring migrant to this country, in the form of the future administration of our agricultural industry.
  We have had a very great success with our war agricultural executive committees, and I think it is now accepted by the
  Majority in the industry that some
  form of committee will have to continue into the peace. Will these post-war committees have, as their permanent staff, some members of the national advisory service we are about to set up under the Bill? Secondly, in the technical develop-

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  ment committees, which are beginning to show signs of their usefulness, shall we there have a "second leg" by which the national advisory service will put over the information and the results of research to the farmer? It is quite useless to spend large sums of money on agricultural education and an expensive advisory service, if the industry is to be allowed to disappear in clouds of despondency and despair when the war is over.
  There have been references to a very serious omission in Clause 6 in regard to the selection, of bulls. The Minister has, for some time, been placing great emphasis on the improvement of livestock, and I had fully expected that the Bill would include provisions for the improvement of cattle in particular. We see that boars are to come under the scheme which at present applies to bulls, We are getting any boar which will pass the prescribed show test, but we are not getting the boars which are known by their breeding to be of use to the industry. It is the same with bulls. A bull can come before the inspector or referee and its pedigree has not the least effect on whether it becomes a registered sire. I feel that what the hon. Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden) said about boars should also apply to bulls, and that no bull should be registered unless it is a registered pedigree bull. It is far harder to breed dual-purpose cattle than normal dairy cattle, because not only have you to get confirmation of the constitution, but you also have to have the flesh-making and milk-producing capacity. Therefore, for dual-purpose cattle you have to have good breeding and, if dual-purpose cattle are well bred, they can produce a yield of 800 or 900 gallons of milk a year, and at the same time produce steers and fat and prime beasts at just over two years old. If you have constitution you have good health, and if you have good health you have longevity. If your population of cows live longer, that will have an appreciable effect on the cost of milk production. Bulls therefore need not only to be pedigree. They need to be progeny-tested. If we are to see any improvement in livestock, those are the two methods by which we shall get it. Many hon. Members who are food producers have been asking, that this should be made a pedigree business. I have no doubt that in the future the industry itself organized
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  through the Farmers' Union will be corning to the Ministry and demanding that the law be altered so that only pedigree bulls and boars are allowed to be registered.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (Mr. Tom Williams): I think my right hon. Friend can be well satisfied with the reception that has been given to the Bill. I cannot claim, of course, that he has won 100 per cent. of support, because there are one or two Welshmen present, but I think I can claim that, on the whole, the Bill has had a very sympathetic reception. My right hon. Friend has emphasised, and the various points of criticism have emphasised, that there are two provisions of major importance. They are for postwar purposes. I should like to see them applied now—to-morrow morning—but, in view of existing circumstances, they are preparatory to our post-war policy. There are several useful minor matters born of experience gained throughout the recent period and designed to help our food production campaign during the course of the war.
  Many speakers have referred particularly to Clause I, mostly sympathetically, though in one or two cases, doubts were expressed. Particularly did the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon (Sir G. Owen) express doubts as to the wisdom of a national advisory service and he went so far as to say that Wales ought to be excluded. He followed that up by asking for a few hundred pounds to help to carry on the existing services. He felt that to remove the duties hitherto carried out by the county councils might have an adverse effect. My hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell) generally welcomed the Measure but he also expressed a doubt about this national advisory service. He thought that whatever service existed ought to be intimate, friendly and sympathetic. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon said this national advisory service might, conceivably, destroy the intimacy, the friendliness and sympathy where it had been conducted by the
  county councils. The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) rather welcomed the national advisory service. My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Mr. Richards) asked what would be the position of

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  specialists with regard to research work. My hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) summed up the whole situation in a nutshell. He said we were simply consolidating for peace-time what has been so eminently successful in wartime.
  In 1940, when the present advisory service attached to the county war agricultural executive committees was established, farmers were rather suspicious. They were not quite happy about what some of them dared to call "persons roaming round the country in plus fours, teaching practical farmers how to farm." I am glad to be able to say that, as time has rolled on, that suspicion has slowly but surely been removed, and now the farmers on the whole regard the advisory service and those who provide it as the most intimate, friendly and sympathetic service that ever was. Indeed, instead of suspecting the man in plus fours, or plus sevens, they now regard him as their very best friend. If my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Carnarvon ever had any doubts about the initiation of a completely new service, the results of the past four years ought instantaneously to dissipate them, for there never was such a pleasant, happy, intimate and sympathetic service as the one we now have.
  Sir G. Owen: I admit that the service to which my hon. Friend now refers is a friendly and intimate service, but that is due to the fact that the county war agricultural executive committees are made up of local farmers who are friends of the farmers, and that the specialists who have been employed by the committees are the very men who were employed by the university colleges before.
  Mr. Williams: My hon. and gallant Friend is bound to agree that while the county councils performed such advisory services as may have been given in prewar days, it was a sort of an offshoot of their agricultural educational committees and was not nearly so complete, effective or efficient as the system we have to-day. I can say with truth, having spoken to all kinds of farmers, large and small, that they are extremely happy with the service they now obtain, and I think that anything less than the service they are now receiving would be viewed with dismay by most of the farmers who have
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  enjoyed the luxury of this guidance during the war.
  The Minister responsible to this House for the well-being of agriculture in postwar days and responsible for such efficiency as may exist, ought clearly to be responsible for and have under his control the advisory and specialist service which is to be provided for farmers. I heard my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Carnarvon and many other hon. Members in all parts of the House say that nothing short of guaranteed markets and fixed prices would ensure stability within this industry. The only quid pro quo that can be brought back to this House and the taxpayers by the farmers is maximum efficiency. My right hon. Friend feels—and I agree with him Low per cent., if there is such a thing—that only a national advisory service on the lines indicated in Clause r can give to the farmer the service he requires and to this House the satisfaction it is entitled to expect.
  Earl Winterton: May I ask my right hon. Friend, because it may help his argument, whether it is not as well that farmers and local authorities should realise that, if this House gives authority to the Government to ensure stabilised markets and proper prices for agricultural produce, it must retain some control over the methods by which agriculture is carried on?
  Mr. Williams: I quite agree with my Noble Friend. That was the point I tried to make a moment ago, when I said that if my right hon. Friend is to be responsible to this House for the industry, he must have charge of the advisory service rendered to the industry. It cannot be denied that during the war the service
  which has grown up has married research to field practice as never was the case before. One only needs to travel in any part of the country to see the wonderful transformation that has taken place in all parts of the British Isles. In order that field practice can be closely identified and related to research my right hon. Friend set up the Agricultural Improvement Council. That Council stands in the centre, and it sifts any problems that may be discovered on the farms. It transmits those problems to the Agricultural Research Council. This is a two-way traffic. It goes from the farm to the

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  Agricultural Improvement Council, and
  then to the Research Council. In the other direction it goes from the Research Council to the Agricultural Improvement Council and back to the technical development committees, of which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ripon (Major York) spoke. That system, I hope, will continue for a long time. To my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham, who asked what would be the position of the specialists in research work, I can, therefore, answer that they will have greater rather than less scope under the new regime. There will be an interchange between teaching and advisory work, but research work will, I hope, go on perhaps at an even quicker rate than in the past.
  No hon. Member will deny that the system built up during the war has been a unique success, and I hope that no hon. Member will wish for anything less in peace-time than that which has been such a unique success in war-time. It is true that there were some counties which had efficient advisory committees in the past, but they were very few and the services varied very widely. My right hon. Friend wants only one system for agriculture, and that the best system, and Clause r of this Bill is the best means by which we are likely to attain that object. I hope hon. Members will not feel that it is merely a desire on the part of a Government Department to filch from a self-governing part of our democracy some of the responsibilities they have hitherto held. The county councils, taken as a whole, do not think on these lines, and I hope that this House will not do so either.
  With regard to Clause 2, many questions have been put with regard to the rate of interest and about what is to happen to those who borrowed money in the past. My right hon. Friend said in his opening speech that he hoped the rate of interest in future, bearing in mind that this was largely a problem of post-war days, when labour and materials would be available, would be a rate of 3 per cent. There will be a slight addition for sinking fund, but it will be very small, and I hope that full advantage will be taken of the facilities accorded in this Clause.
  Sir G. Owen: Will the 3½ per cent. include anything for redemption?
  Mr. Williams: I said that there will be a small addition for sinking fund. With regard to old loans at a higher rate of interest, it is inconceivable that any Treasury would agree to an all-round reduction in the rate of interest or variation of any contract into which farmers have entered. There is, however, a way out, and most borrowers know that way. They can repay their loans if they pay a 5 per cent. fee for repaying prior to the due date.
  Major Leighton: Can they repay, and then borrow again?
  Mr. Williams: The moment funds are available, under the terms of Clause 2, they will be able to repay with a fee of 5 per cent. and then they can borrow later at the lower rate of interest that will then be charged. With reference to the Clause dealing with water supplies, my right hon. Friend made it very clear, I thought, that this Clause is merely supplementary to the Act of 1941 under which, should a farmer find a water supply suitable, and want to take water for his farm and farm buildings, a grant of 5o per cent. may be paid. Since then, it has been discovered that there is a missing link; water can be taken with the aid of a grant to farm and farm buildings but not to the farm house or cottage if there should be a cottage or cottages close by. This Clause simply extends the provisions referred to and enables a grant to be paid for taking a farm water supply to a farm house or to any cottage or cottages close by. I hope that will clear that matter up. In relation to the acceptance of this as a supplement to another Bill there will be a Bill before us later this week in this House.
  The question of Clause 6 relating to livestock has been raised by several hon. Members. My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton asked whether the new procedure would apply only to pedigree boars. The same question has been asked by other hon. Members. I am afraid I have to reply in the negative. It is true that we should all be looking forward to the time when only a boar or a bull should be licensed if it is known to be a pedigree animal. But at this moment it is an ideal to aim at. I doubt if we dare, at this stage, license only pedigree boars or pedigree bulls. We hope by this licensing system of boars that we shall

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  produce a better quality animal, and the good pork and bacon referred to may not be too far distant. If hon. Members are not careful in asking for better pedigree animals they will have to bear the brunt of the attack on my right hon. Friend when he asks farmers to become more efficient in certain directions.
  With reference to Clause 3, dealing with time rates for piece work, the answer is, very simply, that as the law now stands, only a person enjoying a statutory minimum wage can enjoy the benefit of the statutory holidays with pay. Therefore, while this Clause does not proceed to fix piece rates, the National Wages Board will have the power to fix a time wage for a job that is done on piece-rate terms, and as long as a time rate is fixed, for that particular job, then the person can enjoy the benefit of a holiday with pay. That is the only purpose and object of this Clause which has been agreed to by the National Farmers Union and the agricultural workers unions and will be welcomed by the Agricultural Wages Board itself.
  Sir W. Wayland: Is that including the seasonal worker?
  Mr. Williams: No, only the normal agricultural workers who would, in any circumstances, enjoy a fixed holiday with pay according to the legislation passed by this House.
  Major Leighton: Then the casual man does not come into it at all.
  Mr. Williams: An hon. Member asked me whether when a farmer, whose lands have been improved by fen roads or drainage schemes, makes his payment for betterment, that will be a charge against the farm costs or against capital costs. That is a question that the Chancellor of the Exchequer can answer better than I can and it might be addressed, I suggest, to him. The hon. Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden) raised the question of legislation by reference referring to the fact that this is the fifth agricultural Bill to be introduced during the war. I do not like legislation by reference which no ordinary Member can understand and the sooner the time comes when there can be a Consolidation Act the better. My right hon. Friend will welcome that moment if only to ease the difficulties of Members of this House.
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  The hon. Member for Fareham (Sir Dymoke White) asked me why the county councils are called on to pay compensation for any of their officers who happen to be put out of employment as a result of the national advisory service being taken over by the State. The simple explanation is that the county council will have to pay compensation for any redundant official but since the county council is relieved of the cost of running any advisory service, they get off cheap on the bargain, since they will only have to compensate a very small number of officers, while the State takes over the expense of the new advisory service. The hon. and gallant Member for Petersfield (Sir G. Jeffreys) asked me why should we think of taking over this service and turning it into a national service, when criticism in the county council was always a very good thing. He said that criticism brought into the daylight many problems. But the county councils, as a rule, meet only once a quarter, while the war agricultural executive committees meet once or twice a week, and the answer is therefore very simple.
  I have been asked about superannuation. This is dealt with in the Second Part of the Schedule, which I am sure the hon. Member has already studied and perhaps he will look at it again. The question was asked by
  the hon. and gallant Member for Ripon, What is to happen to the members of the war agricultural executive committees in peace time, and what would happen to the development of the committees themselves? I am afraid that no reply can be given at the moment as this concerns post-war policy and I do not know anything about it myself. The hon. and gallant Member referred to other questions which, like "the flowers that bloom in the Spring," have nothing to do with this Bill at all. I am sorry I could not give him any satisfaction on these matters at all. This, however, is not regarded as the last word in agricultural legislation, but we do think that the first two Clauses are a useful start for post-war reconstruction; and there are other minor Clauses which will help us to continue with our food production campaign during the war, so that the people of these Islands will continue to be fed decently, despite any shipping problems that may arise.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time.
  Mr. Hudson: I beg to move,
  "That the Bill be referred to the Examiners; that the Examiners do examine the Bill with respect to compliance with Standing Order 72A relating to Private Business."
  Earl Winterton: Is it in Order to ask to what this very obscure and abstruse procedure relates?
  Mr. Hudson: I understand that this is a hybrid Bill because it affects private interests in relation to the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, and has to comply with normal procedure. The Bill has to go to a Joint Select Committee before it can be referred to a Committee of this House.
  Question put, and agreed to.

  AGRICULTURE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) [MONEY]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.
  [Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS in the Chair.]
  Resolved:
  "That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the establishment of a National Agricultural Advisory Service, and for increasing the resources of the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation and the Scottish Agricultural Securities Corporation, and otherwise to amend the law relating to agriculture and matters connected therewith (hereafter in this resolution referred to as the "new Act") it is expedient to authorise

  (a) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries in connection with the establishment and maintenance of a National Agricultural Advisory Service (including the salaries and other remuneration and any superannuation benefits payable to persons appointed or transferred under the provisions of the new Act relating to the said service);

  (b) the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums required for making advances in accordance with the provisions of the new Act to the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation and to the Scottish Agricultural Securities Corporation, not exceeding—

  (i) in the case of the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, two million five
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  hundred thousand pounds together with the advances made to the guarantee fund of that Corporation under Part I of the Agricultural Credits Act, 1928; or

  (ii) in the case of the Scottish Agricultural Securities Corporation, four hundred and twenty-five thousand pounds together with the advances made to the guarantee fund of that Corporation under the Agricultural Credits (Scotland) Act, 1929:

  and the payment into the Exchequer of any sums paid by either Corporation by way of repayment of or interest on any such advances made under the new Act;

  (c) the increase to one hundred and fifty thousand pounds of the sums which may be paid to the Agricultural Mortgage Corporation, in the year in which the memorandum and articles of the Corporation are altered as provided by the new Act and any subsequent year, out of moneys provided by Parliament under section thirty-two of the Agricultural Development Act, 1939;

  (d) the payment to the Scottish Agricultural Securities Corporation out of moneys provided by Parliament, either by way of grant or by way of loan, of sums not exceeding thirty thousand pounds in the year beginning on the 1st April, 1944, and each or any of the succeeding nineteen years;

  (e) the extension to 31st July, 1947, of the period in respect of which contributions may be made out of moneys provided by Parliament under Part I of the Agriculture Act, 1937, as amended by any subsequent enactment, towards expenses incurred in acquiring and transporting lime;

  (f) grants out of money provided by Parliament towards expenditure incurred in carrying out schemes for the supply of water for domestic purposes to dwelling houses occupied or usually occupied in connection with, or by persons employed in connection with agricultural land in England or Wales;

  (g) grants out of moneys provided by Parliament under section sixteen of the Agricultural Act, 1937, as amended by any subsequent enactment to owners or occupiers of dwelling houses occupied or usually occupied in connection with, or by persons employed in connection with, agricultural land in Scotland in respect of expenditure on the provision of a supply of water for domestic purposes to such dwelling houses;

  (h) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any such increase in the expenses incurred under the Improvement of Livestock (Licensing of Bulls) Act, 1932, by the Minister within the meaning of that Act as may be occasioned by the provisions of the new Act extending the said Act of 1931 to pigs."—(King's Recommendation signified.)—[Mr. Hudson.]

  Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

  COLONIAL DEVELOPMENT AND WELFARE GRANTS
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Captain McEwen.]
  Mr. Riley: I desire for a few moments to take the House from the subject of agriculture to that of the Colonies. I want to do so by calling attention to the course of the expenditure during the last four years under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act, 1940. Hon. Members who were in the House during that year will recall that the then Colonial Secretary issued a White Paper entitled "A Statement of Policy on Colonial Development and Welfare." In a word or two, the reason for that statement arose out of a Royal Commission which was sent to the West Indies in 1938–39 to make inquiries into disturbances and conditions which had given rise to the disturbances over a number of years. As a result of the report of that Commission we had presented in June, 1940, what is now know as the Colonial Development and Welfare Act. The purpose of that Act, authorised of course by this House, was to place at the disposal of the Government certain sums of money in annual contributions for the purpose of dealing with the economic and social conditions, revealed, as I said just now, as the result of the Royal Commission's visit to the West Indies.
  It is lour years since that Act came into operation, and I want to remind the House what has taken place. The Minister is aware that on several occasions I have put questions as to what was going on. The Act of 1940 provided that a maximum sum of £5,000,000 per annum should be available in order to assist our Colonial territories to deal with the problems which had been revealed, and which were widely known. There was to be £5,000,000 per annum over a period of ten years, making a total sum of £50,000,000, The Act provided that of that £5,000,000 per annum to be devoted to the purpose, as I have said, of the social and economic improvement of the people of our Colonial territories, £1,000,000 per annum should be earmarked for the West Indies and £4,000,000 for the rest of the Colonial territories. That was in 1940. This the House authorised, having before it the
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  problems with which we are face to face in the work of Colonial improvement and the possibility that in four years' time there would be a possible expenditure of £20,000,000.
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Colonel Oliver Stanley): I am sure the hon. Member wants to be fair, but will he quote the words of paragraph 9 of the White Paper, in the full knowledge of which the House passed that Act?
  Mr. Riley: I do not know what particular words the right hon. and gallant Gentleman refers to in paragraph 9, but I will quote the words:
  "The intention is that the sums of £5,000,000 and £500,000 a year respectively should be specified in the proposed legislation as maximum figures."
  Colonel Stanley: Would the hon. Member read the next sentence?
  Mr. Riley: It reads:
  "It is not expected that, in either case, this scale of expenditure will be attained at once; indeed, it is improbable that conditions will permit of its being reached at any time during the war."
  I suppose that is sufficient for the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's purpose?
  Colonel Stanley: Yes.
  Mr. Riley: May I draw attention to another paragraph in the White Paper, the first paragraph, which says:
  "It has been assumed in some quarters that action on the recommendations would be postponed until after the war; but the Government purpose no such delay."
  I submit that that conflicts in a way with paragraph 9 to which the Minister asks me to call attention. I think I quoted fairly what was in the White Paper. I had arrived at the point that under this Act, according to the terms of the White Paper, there could have been made available in the four years from 1940 to March of this year, the sum of £20,000,000 for the improvement of the economic and social conditions of our Colonial subjects in all our Colonial territories.
  The fact is, as is shown by the answers to Questions which I have put, that, while we have sanctioned schemes, on paper, in these four years, involving a commitment of £8,500,000, we have authorised the expenditure of only £2,169,000, out of a possible £20,000,000 which might have been available under the Act. It is interesting

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  to consider how that £2,169,000, out of a possible £20,000,000, has been spent on the purposes of the White Paper policy. It was stated, in answer to a Question of mine last week, that, of that sum of £2,169,000, £1,246,000 was authorised for the West Indies, and £900,000 odd for the rest of the Colonial territories. What does that expenditure mean in relation to the population of these Colonial territories? It is well to grasp the fact that the £2,169,000, out of £20,000,000 amounts to 9d. per head of the 60,000,000 inhabitants of our Colonial territories during the last four years, or only 2¼d. per head per annum, in realisation of the objects of the White Paper policy.
  To go still further, that £2,169,000, which is the total expenditure, and the loss of over £7,000,000 which might have been spent in the four years, represent, in the case of the African Colonial territories, with a population of 57,000,000, an expenditure of a penny per head per year. I am not unmindful of the excellent work which has been done and which is being done in certain fields of Colonial administration, under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act. I appreciate, as much as the Minister does, what has been done, with the assistance of this Act, by the Colonial machinery, particularly in the West Indies, in the encouragement and assistance of the peoples of those territories to form trade unions, to establish minimum standards of living, with minimum wages, to do something about education, and to improve health and social services. But, in view of the figures which I have given and their relationship to the work which is involved, a great deal more ought to have been done.
  It is interesting to note the better work which is being done in the West Indies as compared with our African Colonial territories, with their much larger populations. There are 27,000,000 people under our rule in Africa, and fewer than 3,000,000 in the West Indies. In the West Indies we have spent something like is. 9d. per head of the population during the four years—a small sum, it is true, but much larger than the 1d. per annum which we have spent in the four years on the much larger population in our African Colonies. We have done much better in the West Indies because it was decided, as a result of the Royal Com-
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  mission which went to the West Indies, to establish a Commission to take charge of the work in the West Indies, to carry out the recommendations which the Stockdale Commission made, after six months' investigation. The Commission which
  was established has been at work for over three years. I want the Minister to explain why a similar Commission should not go out to West Africa and East Africa, to do the same kind of work as has been done in the West Indies. There is much greater need for it in Africa. The population of our West African territories is more than 10 times that of the West Indies. The tragedy of this slow expenditure is that, out of £20,000,000, we have spent only £2,000,000-odd, and, under the terms of the Act, unspent balances have to be returned to the Treasury each year. Therefore, we have lost £18,000,000.
  The Minister may reply that the labour
  and the material are not available to carry out the necessary schemes, and that, therefore, they have to go slowly. But that is only a partial reply. It is true that in certain Colonial areas there is, under war conditions, a great scarcity of labour, but in other areas there is an ample supply of labour, particularly in the West Indies. It cannot be the lack of labour in the West Indies. At the present moment, and for the last two months, we have, in Jamaica alone, recruited 15,000 labourers, not for work in Jamaica, not for the cultivation of land, not for the economic work of providing subsistence for the population, which is the foundation of the whole thing, but recruited to be sent away from Jamaica to do farm work in the United States. Why could not something have been done to utilise that labour in Jamaica? The same thing occurred last year and there has been a lag-over in Jamaica. In a statement only a week ago, I think, the Minister said there were only about 2,500 Jamaican labourers remaining over from last year in U.S.A., and now another 15,000 have been sent away. Side by side with that, it cannot be said that schemes of useful agricultural settlement could not be organised. On competent authority, it is said that in Jamaica to-day no more than 45 per cent. of the cultivable land is under cultivation, and that there is room there for any amount of well organised land settlement to make use of this money.

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  I submit, therefore, that there could have been a great deal more done than has been done. It is not only in Jamaica, but in Africa, too. The labour difficulty may be somewhat different there under war conditions than in the West Indies, but in Africa—in Kenya and East Africa —there is a great demand for land holdings and for the cultivation of land from people who have not got enough. What a tragedy it is. In the West Indian islands, we have Jamaica alone—a purely agricultural island—importing approximately £1,000,000 worth of foodstuffs every year. In 1937, there was imported into Jamaica no less than £189,000 worth of dried fish, grain and flour amounting to £398,000, rice £171,000, milk £119,000, making a total of £900,000. After all, and this has been admitted repeatedly in this House, in the long run, whatever remedial work we are going to do, under the Colonial Development Act expressly passed for this purpose, will have to be based upon improved economic efficiency in these Colonial territories. It is by improving the land and the subsistence of the people that you get the means whereby any assistance which is given under the Act may be of a permanent character.
  I submit to the Minister that any review of the slowness with which this work has gone on for the last four years, after it was authorised by Parliament following inquiries, must induce one to ask whether the right kind of machinery is there to carry it out, whether the men in charge of the Colonial Office and the officers into whose hands this work is placed are the right type. In the West Indies, where things have gone ahead much better than elsewhere, there has been a Commission at work for the last four years—the Stockdale Commission. I have asked why the same thing could not have been done in East and West Africa. I go further and suggest that, in connection with Commissions of this kind, if any achievement is going to be realised, some different kind of direction at headquarters, in the surveying and organising of all schemes, is called for by the failure to carry out the intentions of Parliament when it passed the Act.
  Captain Gammans: I shall not venture to try to anticipate what the Colonial Secretary will say, but, as I have just come back from the West Indies as a member of the Empire Parlia-
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  mentary Association's delegation, perhaps I might venture to comment on what my hon. Friend has said. I gather that his complaint is that, somehow or other, this money, which is voted by this House, should have been spent, and that, because it has not been spent, he fears that it may be lost to the purpose for which it was voted. I imagine that, on that second point, my hon. Friend's interpretation is not correct, and that the sum of money voted by this House will, in fact, be available for the purpose for which it was intended.
  Mr. Edmund Harvey: No.
  Captain Gammans: Well, perhaps the total sum will be available. While we were out there, naturally, one of the things that interested us most was to try to make up our minds on how the Stock-dale Commission were working and to what extent they were carrying out their plans quickly. My right hon. and gallant Friend knows quite well that I have always felt that the Colonial Welfare and Development Act was a poor substitute for a Development Council, but I will say this about it—it is very much better than anything we have ever had before. So far as the West Indies are concerned, I think all of us were impressed, not only by the personality of Sir Frank Stockdale, but by the comprehensiveness of the plans which he and his staff had prepared. Could those plans be carried out more quickly? What was perfectly obvious was that the trouble was not reluctance on the part of the Colonial Office to provide the money, or the ability of Sir Frank and his staff to spend it, but a shortage of stock and materials. Surely, my hon. Friend will agree with me that a new hospital cannot be built unless there are the materials to build it with, and unless there are the necessary engineers, foremen and technical staff. The same thing applies to water and agricultural stations. It is not the slightest use just spending the money for the sake of spending money. The position to-day in the West Indies is that they are literally at their wits' end to find staff for the ordinary services, and technical officers and raw materials are simply not available. That is the position as far as I can see in the West Indies. The plans are very comprehensive and excellent, but the limiting factor to-day is not just

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  unskilled labour but technical skill and the amount of raw material required.
  Mr. Riley: Material is very largely obtainable locally. For the building of hospitals and other constructions in the West Indies and other Colonies the labour is there, and the material can be found.
  Captain Gammans: I disagree. A certain amount of raw material is on the spot, but to build a hospital or to put in a water scheme needs pipes, pumps and many things which can only come from this country or the United States of America, and they are not available. The hon. Member talked about land settlement. I do not know whether he has had practical experience of putting people on to the land, but for five years I was doing it in this country and I have done it in other parts of the Empire. There is far more in land settlement than that. That is the easy part. The less people know about the land, the more they want to dump other people on to it. To put people on to the land without technical assistance and agricultural advisers to advise, and with engineers to build roads and waterworks and to provide other services, is not only a complete waste of money but condemns the whole scheme to failure before it starts. There is far more in land settlement than buying pieces of land and dumping untrained people on to them. I saw a lot of the land settlement schemes in all the West Indian Islands and I got the impression that they were starting under good auspices. One cannot be in a hurry; one has to build on a sound foundation if one expects good results.
  In some of the West Indian Islands there is a shortage of unskilled labour. In Trinidad the sugar production last year nearly halved itself, and that was due to the absence of unskilled labour. The reason for that is the American base, which has drawn off a large amount of the labour required. I was told that in Trinidad, for some weeks, they could not run the railway because they could not produce sufficient semi-skilled men to fire the locomotives and carry on the work of the railways. What is the good of pretending, in conditions of that sort, that one can undertake vast schemes for the provision of hospitals, water supplies, land settlement or anything else, unless the object is to spend money for the sake of
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  spending it? I came to the conclusion—and I think the hon. Member would have come to the same conclusion if he had been with us—that as much progress as could reasonably be expected had been made.
  We are all agreed on the necessity for raising the standard of living, comfort and health of the Colonial Empire. Upon that all parties in this House are agreed and, what is more, this House would be prepared to vote money for this purpose to a far greater extent than they have ever done before. But they will only vote the money if they are convinced it is being wisely spent. Nothing would do more harm to the cause that those of us who are keen on the Colonies have in our minds than for it to be shown that the £50,000,000 which has been voted had been wasted merely for the sake of spending it. In so far as we can show that it will be well spent, the House will be justified in calling upon the hard-pressed taxpayer to put up some more money. We have to get out of our heads the notion that you can solve every problem in the world if only you spend enough money and pass enough Acts of Parliament. Some of the problems in the West Indies are not soluble at all by any Act of Parliament passed in this House and they are not possible of solution in any way by our voting money.
  Mr. Sorensen: Such as what?
  Captain Gammans: Such as the population in Barbados. There is an island as large as the Isle of Wight, with double the population and increasing by 4,000 or 5,000 annually. The fertility of man is greater than the fertility of the soil. What is the good of pretending that that problem can be solved by Sir Frank Stockdale or anybody else?
  Mr. Sorensen: The hon. and gallant Member will appreciate that this country increased its population between 1881 and 1931 by 350 per cent., and its wealth increased by a greater rate than that.
  Captain Gammans: I would not like to take the analogy of two countries and drive it too far. This country has mineral wealth. There is no
  mineral wealth in Barbados nor any sign of it. It is an island which can grow one crop and one crop only, and that is sugar. There is

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  a danger, when we are trying to raise the standard of living in the West Indies or any part of the Colonial Empire, of imagining that all you have to do is to vote money in this House and it does not much matter how it is spent. There are problems in the Colonies which are completely insoluble by the spending of money. One of the great difficulties in the West Indies or in any tropical country is the vicious circle of the tropics. People rank leisure higher. The first thing that people do when they get more money is to indulge in leisure. It may be a good thing and there is a lot to be said for it, but it is difficult to raise the economic standard of living of the people so long as that viewpoint prevails. It is no good pretending that we can deal with that by spending money in this House. Many of the problems in the West Indies come down in the end to that. The intentions of the hon. Member are, I am sure, of the best—I share his viewpoint entirely on the desirability of spending this money—but I felt that having seen a little of the work on the spot, it was only fair to Sir Frank Stockdale and also to the Colonial Secretary to voice my own conviction that not only have very adequate and full plans been prepared, but, moreover, that those plans are being carried out as quickly as possible.
  Mr. Edmund Harvey: The whole House will very largely agree with the concluding remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Hornsey (Captain Gammans), and the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Riley) will agree too. No one thinks that the mere pouring out of money by itself can bring the changes for which we hope and the changes that are needed. But the hon. and gallant Member hardly did justice to the main contention of my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury, although he agreed with his object. He omitted to realise that the annual sum
  which Parliament has voted under this Act does not go to the benefit of the colonies unless it is spent within the year. The balance every year returns to the Treasury. That is the real difficulty. While we should all agree that it should not be the duty of the Colonial Office to spend every penny of this money, whether it was needed or not, yet it is lamentable, when the need is so great, as we all realise, and as my hon. and gallant Friend has pointed out as a result of his own
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  recent experience, that such a very large proportion should have remained unexpended.
  I think we are all in agreement that there are certain things which cannot be done in wartime. It is no fault of the Colonial Secretary, it is no fault of the Colonial Office or of local officials in the Colonies. It is not possible under war conditions, but there are surely certain measures that could be carried on in spite of all these difficulties. There is the question of land settlement which is so much needed. The purchase of land does not employ a large amount of labour that is wanted for war purposes. In certain cases, nothing can be done unless the land is purchased. Take the case of St. Kitts, where there are 60 land owners and the labouring population has practically no means of access to the land. All they have are tiny allotments on insecure tenure. The first thing to do, surely, is to provide a certain amount of land which can be developed, and that does not involve the employment of labour or materials not available during the war.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Is the hon. Member complaining that the 60 land owners have not developed their land, and are therefore to be bought out in favour of those who will develop it?
  Mr. Harvey: It would take too long to go into all the details, but in some cases the land is owned by companies. I believe there are only about 60 actual proprietors, and there is no doubt that there is an urgent need for small holdings with security of tenure. Indeed, I am sure the Colonial Secretary intends to go forward with the development of land holdings there. However, I give that only as an instance. Wherever you want to develop small holdings, and where the labourers have no holdings of their own, you must have some measure of land purchase prior to action, and that can be done now, even in wartime. That is what I want to urge, though I think there are cases, as my hon. Friend has said, where there is actually labour available. There is, for instance, the case of British Honduras to which a number of labourers have returned after war service in this country and are unemployed at the present moment. I have had reports of really unsatisfactory conditions owing to the return of these labourers from work in

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  Great Britain. It is true they have a grant for their services and they are living on that. It is not satisfactory that they are unemployed, and I believe the Colonial Secretary is engaged at present in correspondence on that point with the Governor with a view to the development of certain schemes. Would it not be possible there for these men to be employed in the provision of timber for use in such work after the war as the provision of small school houses which are needed in great numbers all over the West Indies? In most cases they will probably have to be simple wooden buildings. It will not need a great deal of engineering skill or specialist labour to provide the material which I believe might be prepared now.
  Those are just two instances of ways in which this money could be spent now for further development after the war. We know that the Colonial Secretary has all our good will on this matter and he is in earnest in trying to get a new development. If he could, with our good will, and with that insight and vision of his urge the Governors everywhere to do what they can in making preparations now for further development after the war, and think out ways such as I have mentioned in which the money could be spent now, we should not have the present lamentable result of this large sum of money which we hoped would have gone for the benefit, year by year, of our fellow subjects in the Colonies, whose need is so great, returning year by year unspent to the Treasury.
  Mr. John Dugdale: I found it rather difficult to follow the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Hornsey (Captain Gammans). I understood, first, that he did not want the money spent and that we would get no value for it, and afterwards that he did want it spent. What I feel about his speech is that if it had been a question of spending money on such things as preventible disease in Hornsey, we might have had rather a different speech. I will take up the time of the House only for a few moments. First, there is the question of lack of materials. We are told that there are no materials, that there is no possibility of getting on with any work even though the money is there. What concerns many of us, however, is that
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  this money which might be spent now and is not being spent will not, so I upderstand, accrue to a later date. If we could even be certain that sums of money unspent now would be spent after the war, then indeed there might perhaps be something to be said—though I do not think very much—for the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's case.
  Colonel Stanley: The hon. Member has not heard it yet.
  Mr. Dugdale: Well, at any rate I have heard the case put up very ably, if I may say so, by the hon. and gallant Member for Hornsey. Maybe the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will put up a wider, and possibly a better one, but that I do not know. I would like to state three propositions quite simply. They are these. First of all, that the Colonies have made and are making a very big contribution to the war effort. Secondly, that
  this contribution is being hampered very seriously by what I can only describe as a lack of strength in the peoples of some of the Colonies owing to the existence of many preventible diseases. It is impossible for the Colonies to make that contribution to the war effort which they might make if those diseases did not exist.
  Let me quote two cases. I understand that 60 per cent. of preventible blindness in Ceylon is attributable to an absence of Vitamin A. Now why can nothing be done about that? Cannot sufficient food containing Vitamin A be sent to persons in Ceylon to prevent this blindness? Then again, at the Hot Springs Conference, one of the Committees dealing with Colonial affairs said that in tropical Africa malnutrition aggravates many diseases, such as tropical ulcers, skin infections, and malaria. These diseases, in so far as they exit, hamper the war effort. I think it is a short-sighted policy to say that we should not spend this money in war-time because it is not being spent for the benefit of the war effort. I would maintain that, purely in the interests of the war effort, money spent on preventing and curing diseases throughout the Colonies is every bit as valuable as money spent on preventing and curing diseases in this country. If such diseases existed here we should have the Minister of Health coming down to this House and demanding vast sums of money to cure them, and saying that it was vitally necessary

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  even for the war effort alone, apart from all other reasons. Without any doubt he would get it, because hon. Members would know the effect of the diseases in their own constituencies and they would know the need for curing them. In fact, however, the diseases exist in places far away from our constituencies, and many of us have not seen their results. I would ask the Colonial Secretary to be as firm in his demand for money for the curing and prevention of such diseases as the Minister of Health would be if the diseases were in this country.
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Colonel Oliver Stanley): I am very glad we have at last been able to secure the time for this Debate. It refers to a Question which was asked when I was ill some time last February. I would like to tell the House that the reason for the delay is that although the hon. Member, at a much earlier stage, had the opportunity for the Adjournment, out of great courtesy to me, he let the chance slip, because at that time I was still convalescent. I am sure that the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Riley), who has had some good hits at me, will not mind if I point out a good many fallacies in his speech, which, I think, was a little partial and one-sided. He started by giving the House the dramatic impression of a House of Commons sitting here four years ago, in those dark days of Dunkirk, passing this Act of Parliament, certain that in four years' time £20,000,000 would be spent and now looking back and seeing how little has been spent. It was only on my suggestion that he read from the White Paper the quite definite warning conveyed to the House at that time that there was, no possibility of the total annual allocations being spent in war circumstances. I reinforced myself by looking at that Debate when the Act was passed and I found that that warning was repeated both by my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. MacDonald) and the right hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. George Hall), who was then Under-Secretary, and I could not find any record in the HANSARD of the day of the hon. Member having dissented at that time from that estimate of the possibilities.
  Mr. Riley: I read out paragraph 1.
  Colonel Stanley: Paragraph 1 is quite irrelevant. Paragraph 9 contains the
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  definite statement that whatever the intentions of the Government during war-time it would be found impossible to spend these annual sums. No one deplores more than I the fact that these difficulties are there. No one is more anxious than I, except, possibly, the Governors of the various Colonies, that the Colonies should be able to take the fullest advantage of this sudden manna from heaven which has descended upon the Colonial Service, which, until then, had had to depend upon the resources of the individual Colonies themselves.
  I do not think the hon. Gentleman helps the case by giving the impression that the Colonial Office and Colonial Governments, for some obscure reason of their own, are not just as anxious as he and everybody else in the House to see this money spent, and spent wisely. But the difficulties in the way are quite obvious. The hon. Gentleman, with dialectical skill, selected one of the difficulties and applied that to one of the Colonies where that particular difficulty did not exist. That really does not answer the case. There are three main shortages from which we are suffering. There is that of technical staff; the second is that of imported material; and the third is that of general labour. There are some Colonies that suffer from all three, but all Colonies suffer from some of them. The hon. Gentleman took as an instance the West Indies, following thereby his new leader on Imperial affairs, the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell), who had made some reference to them in a speech on Imperial affairs, which no doubt his follower listened to with very great delight and agreement. The hon. Gentleman said, as the hon. Member for Seaham did, "In the West Indies we have to take people from Jamaica and actually try to find them work in the United States." It is true that in Jamaica they do not suffer from a shortage of general labour, but they suffer very much from a shortage of imported material and technical staff. In Africa, you have a shortage of general labour—and I will come later to the difference between Africa and the West Indies —as well as the other two shortages, and it is no good blinking our eyes to these difficulties.
  I want to say frankly to hon. Members who try, as I think one hon. Member did, to pretend that there is no shortage of imported materials in the West Indies,

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  that they are doing me a very great disservice, because I have made a very earnest appeal to Mr. Taussig, a very helpful collaborator on behalf of the United States on the Anglo-American Caribbean Commission, to try and get the United States, as a matter of priority, to release at any rate some portion of the imported materials which are necessary in order that these schemes may make rapid progress. It will not be very encouraging for him to hear hon. Members say that there is no shortage of imported materials and therefore there is no reason for him to make this effort on our behalf.
  It being the hour appointed for the interruption of Business, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain McEwen.]
  Colonel Stanley: Hon. Members in this country, with all our natural resources, do not realise that in the West Indies, with no mineral resources, a nail is an imported material and every kind of tool is an imported material. That shortage is a reality. All over the Colonial Empire the impact of war has been very much the same as in this country. It has varied in intensity. The great difference between the situation in Africa and in the West Indies is that the impact of the war has been much more severe in Africa owing to its geographical position. In Africa you have hundreds of thousands serving in the Armed Forces and you have had a large flow of military material going through from West Africa and across to East Africa, and a great extra demand for that reason upon the resources of the Colonies. We can no more brush aside the impact of these war created shortages in the Colonies upon development plans than exactly the same shortages created in this country.
  It is only fair to say that within those limitations we have within the last year made a very considerable amount of progress. The £1,300,000 that we spent in the last financial year is nothing like as much as I should like to see spent if we could do it, but it is four times as much as we were able to spend a year before, and it shows that we are gradually becoming able to increase the amount which, despite these difficulties, we can spend.
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  I think hon. Members who look upon this question without bias or partiality will take the view expressed by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hornsey (Captain Gammans). I could not see any inconsistency at all in his speech. He said from his practical experience that he did not think all this money could be usefully spent but he wished it could and he would support any effort to spend more. I think it will be agreed that, in conditions of war, we cannot expect to be able to spend the full amount, and that we are limited in our choice of schemes which can be immediately put into effect. To my mind what is most important is that we should make all our preparations and have all our plans ready so that, as and when any shortage diminishes, as and when execution becomes a possibility, we should not be held up because we were not absolutely ready on the planning side. I do not want on a short Debate on the Adjournment to go into that in detail. Before long we shall have the Colonial Estimates debated, and I was hoping then to tell the House something of the plans and machinery now being set up to ensure that we shall be ready as and when conditions make developments practicable.
  Mr. Riley: Why cannot there be, in large areas such as West and East Africa, commissions similar to the Stockdale Commission in the West Indies?
  Colonel Stanley: I have already explained on several occasions that, because one particular type of machinery is the right one for one area, it does not necessarily mean that it is the right one for others. The Stockdale Commission is designed for a number of very small Colonies, most of which are poor and do not have on their normal staffs experts on every subject. It is not necessarily the right machinery for larger and richer Colonies, which have on their permanent staffs experts on these various subjects just as qualified as those who are now members of the Stockdale Commission. When we deal more fully with this question in the Estimates Debate, I hope to show that we are setting up in the various other Colonies machinery, which may be different from the Stockdale Commission, but which is better suited to the conditions of the various areas.
  I realise that the real fear of everybody in this Debate, even those who agree with

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  me, is that, whatever our efforts we cannot spend more than we are spending and that by not spending it we are somehow losing it for ever. If I believed that in future that would be the case, I should share hon. Members' anxieties. No mention has been made in the Debate—and I am surprised that the hon. Member for Dewsbury, who was anxious to bring out all sides of the question and develop an unbiased argument, did not refer to it—of the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for South East St. Pancras (Sir A. Beit) on 15th March; that was a few weeks after he had asked the Question on which this Adjournment Debate is based. The hon. Gentleman then raised exactly the point which is in everybody's mind, namely, what is the result of not spending £5,000,000 in a year when we know that what is not spent has to be returned to the Treasury? I explained in the answer that legally it had to be returned to the Treasury, but I went on to say that the White Paper issued at the time of the Act—
  "expressly stated that during the war it could not be expected that expenditure would reach the limit, but it also said that the limit would be subject to review and could be increased by Parliament. I can give an assurance to the House that a review will be undertaken before there is any likelihood of the annual expenditure reaching the maximum figure. Such a review would include not only the point raised in the Question, but the general adequacy of the provisions of the Act in the light of the experience gained since 1940 of the post-war requirements of the Colonies."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th March, 1944; Vol. 398, col. 224.]
  I deliberately answered the Question in that way. It would have been possible for me to say that I would take up the matter with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and that I was sure he would meet me in a helpful spirit. The question of the restoration of these balances which
  have been described as lost is to my mind not enough. I have not concealed from the House that a mere alteration in the Act, which made certain that the whole £50,000,000 was available over the period of 10 years, does not seem to me in the light of the knowledge we have gained in the last four years to meet the case at all. Therefore, I have expressly in my answer reserved the right to apply to the Chancellor and to discuss with my colleagues, not merely for the restoration of the unspent balance, but for a review of the original sum of £5,000,000 in the
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  light of the experience we have gained, and the doubts which our experience has thrown upon its adequacy. I sincerely hope that when the time comes hon. Members on all sides will support that view, that if we are to do our duty properly by the Colonial territories we should provide over a period of years—I am not asking this as a permanent dole, something which would make real self-government almost a farce—something that can give them the capital equipment and start them on the road which will develop their own resources out of which they can meet these permanent charges. I hope they will be behind it. The hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. John Dugdale), who spoke so bravely to-day, challenged the hon. and gallant Member for Hornsey—who has wilted under the challenge—that if he would be prepared to spend money for health services in Hornsey, he must be equally prepared to spend it in Jamaica. I hope he will be as good as his word, and that if a choice has to come to the people of this country and this House between spending more money in the Colonies and having some extra tit-bit at home, maybe in West Bromwich, the hon. Gentleman will be on the side of the angels.
  I am very glad that we have had this Debate. I hope it has given me the opportunity to remove some misconceptions, and I hope it will give me and the whole House a chance now to set at rest the malicious story which is being put around by people who cannot have the best interests of this country or the Colonial dependencies at heart. The story runs like this, that nobody had ever thought of doing anything to help the Colonies until Dunkirk; that in that dark moment when the Empire might have fallen away from us the Colonial Secretary came down to the House of Commons and introduced—[Interruption.] I am speaking quite seriously. It is a reaction that has been met by lecturers on Colonial affair in *the last few months. It is a story which I think hon. Members would like to hear, and that they would like to be in a position, when it came to their ears, to be able to refute it. Perhaps, if the hon. Member does not mind—
  Mr. lathers: May I say that I was asking my hon. Friends behind me whether they knew the origin of this story, and had they heard it? The re-

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  sponse I got was that it was a new one to them. We are glad to have the story and the refutation of it.
  Colonel Stanley: To continue, the story is that my predecessor came down with this Act of Parliament, this Colonial Development and Welfare Act, which was merely intended as some bribe to throw out in those dark days, and that now things have improved, now that victory is more assured, we have no intention of implementing the offer that was made then, and made with the knowledge that we would not be able to spend this money. I am sure the whole House will join with me in affirming that that is nothing but a malicious lie. In the first place, no hon. Member of this House who knows how Acts of Parliament are given birth to, thinks that the Colonial Welfare and Development Act could have been conceived in May and brought to birth in this House in June. It was, of course, the product of many months of thinking, starting from the time, as the hon. Member says, of the West Indian Commission. Secondly, I hope that I have given, to the best of my ability, an explanation of why it has been impossible, during these four years, to spend all that money; and, thirdly, I think that the whole temper of the House shows that we are quite determined that, in future, we shall not only stick to the terms of the Colonial Welfare and Development Act, but that we are prepared to face what I believe will be the bigger burden that we shall have to bear if we are properly to discharge our responsibility. I am sure that hon. Members will take every opportunity they have, if that story comes to their ears, of refuting it. For that reason, I welcome the opportunity that the hon. Gentleman has given us of this Debate.
  Earl Winterton: It would be contrary to the procedure of this House for me to take part in this Debate, because I have heard only the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's speech, but I think the Colonial Secretary will agree with me, although he and I
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  may disagree with the views which my hon. Friends hold, that the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Riley) and others have done good service in bringing forward matters connected with the Colonial dependencies. In the past we have gone through Session after Session, without Colonial affairs corning up. Now, under the Rules of the House, there is always an Adjournment Motion, of which we can take advantage, and I suggest that questions affecting the welfare of the Colonies and the dependencies might be brought up from time to time for Debate on the Adjournment. I am sure, as one who has some knowledge of the Colonial dependencies, that what most depresses the people in those dependencies is that their interests and their conditions, although occasionally mentioned in questions, are never raised in Debate. It is an excellent thing that these matters should be raised on the Adjournment by Members who are interested in them.
  Colonel Stanley: The Noble Lord will realise that a Debate of this character is based on the unsatisfactory nature of a reply given by me, and he would not, therefore, expect me to agree with him.
  Earl Winterton: I was just coming to that point. So far as I know, there is no reason, except a rather foolish convention, why matters should be raised on the Adjournment only after getting an unsatisfactory answer. Some of my hon. Friends may have noticed that when I want to raise matters on the Adjournment, I frequently say, "In view of the difficulty of dealing with this matter by question and answer, I shall raise it on the Adjournment." In view of the greater opportunity we have of dealing with matters on the Adjournment, we should, in this supreme Parliament of the Empire, take the opportunity to deal with Colonial matters in debate. I am grateful to my right hon. and gallant Friend for what I take to be an indication of his assent to that proposition.
  Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.

NATIONAL FINANCE
  Housing Loans (Local Authorities)
  Housing Loans (Local Authorities)
  Prices (Stabilisation)
  Prices (Stabilisation)
  Widows' Pensions (Taxation)
  Widows' Pensions (Taxation)
  Income Tax (Depreciation Allowances)
  Income Tax (Depreciation Allowances)
  Estate Duty
  Estate Duty
  Awards to Inventors
  Awards to Inventors
  BUILDING SOCIETIES (AMALGAMATIONS)
  BUILDING SOCIETIES (AMALGAMATIONS)
  AUXILIARY POLICE (WORKING CONDITIONS)
  AUXILIARY POLICE (WORKING CONDITIONS)
  HOUSING (PREFABRICATION)
  HOUSING (PREFABRICATION)
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (NATURAL LIGHTING)
  HOUSE OF COMMONS (NATURAL LIGHTING)
BRITISH ARMY
  Palestinian Regiment (Polish Jews)
  Palestinian Regiment (Polish Jews)
  Reservist (Arrest)
  Reservist (Arrest)
  Agricultural Land (De-requisition)
  Agricultural Land (De-requisition)
  Overseas Service (Age Limit)
  Overseas Service (Age Limit)
  CIVIL SERVICE CLERICAL ASSOCIATION (PALESTINE BRANCH)
  CIVIL SERVICE CLERICAL ASSOCIATION (PALESTINE BRANCH)
  WORKS OF ART (EXPORTS TO U.S.A.)
  WORKS OF ART (EXPORTS TO U.S.A.)
SCOTLAND
  Land Settlement (South Uist, Benbecula and Eriskay)
  Land Settlement (South Uist, Benbecula and Eriskay)
  Municipal Housing (Glasgow)
  Municipal Housing (Glasgow)
  Forestry Workers (Wages)
  Forestry Workers (Wages)
  Scottish Reconstruction Committee
  Scottish Reconstruction Committee
  FUEL ECONOMY
  FUEL ECONOMY
  TEACHERS' SALARIES
  TEACHERS' SALARIES
  WOMAN MEDICAL STUDENT (HOSPITAL STUDIES)
  WOMAN MEDICAL STUDENT (HOSPITAL STUDIES)
  DISABLED PERSONS (EMPLOYMENT) ACT
  DISABLED PERSONS (EMPLOYMENT) ACT
  DETENTION OF A MEMBER
  DETENTION OF A MEMBER
  COAL INDUSTRY (PRODUCTION)
  COAL INDUSTRY (PRODUCTION)
PUBLIC HEALTH
  Vaccination
  Vaccination
  Smallpox Diagnosis (School-teacher)
  Smallpox Diagnosis (School-teacher)
  POST-WAR OVERSEAS TRADE
  POST-WAR OVERSEAS TRADE
  MILITARY TRAINING AREAS (COMPULSORY EVACUATIONS)
  MILITARY TRAINING AREAS (COMPULSORY EVACUATIONS)
  INDIA (UNIVERSITY GRANTS COMMITTEE)
  INDIA (UNIVERSITY GRANTS COMMITTEE)
  ROYAL NAVY (INDUSTRIAL CIVIL SERVANTS)
  ROYAL NAVY (INDUSTRIAL CIVIL SERVANTS)
Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

Prayers.
The Earl Waldegrave—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
The Lord Glenarthur—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

CONNAH'S QUAY GAS BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.
EDUCATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.

REINSTATEMENT IN RETAIL BUSINESS PREMISES BILL. [H.L.]
LORD WINSTER: My Lords, I beg leave to present a Bill to make provision for the reinstatement in their trade or business premises of certain persons who are, or have been, in the service of the Crown, the Merchant Navy, or the Civil Defence Force, or who have been engaged in another trade or industry in consequence of a direction from the Minister of Labour and National Service or a National Service officer; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.— (Lord Winster.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

CAERNARVON GAS ORDER, 1944.
VISCOUNT CLIFDEN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Templemore, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name.
Moved, That the special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday last, be approved.—(Viscount Clifden.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

EDINBURGH MERCHANT COMPANY ENDOWMENTS (AMENDMENT) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Considered on Report (according to order).

PENSIONS (INCREASE) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, I do not think that your Lordships will desire any extended speech from me in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, which is a Bill to provide for the increase of certain pensions payable in respect of public service. I had, perhaps, better make it plain that this Bill has nothing to do with pensions payable for death or disablement in the Armed Forces. Those pensions have already been increased to the level of the last war, and the cost of living in the last war was higher than it is now. Neither has this Bill anything directly to do with Service pensions—I mean pensions paid to members of the Forces on their retirement, whether officers or men. I say that it has nothing directly to do with those pensions because the need for pensions of that sort is met by Royal Warrant and not by Act of Parliament, but it has been announced that it is the intention of the Government that, when this present Bill passes, the pensions payable under the Royal Warrant to officers and men leaving the Forces shall be adjusted to correspond with the provisions of the present Bill.
This Bill deals with different matters. It really divides itself into two parts. The first part is contained in Clause 1, with which has to be read the Second Schedule, and it is a general scheme for the relief of hardship when the pensioner has no considerable resources of his own and when his pension is small. It applies, as your Lordships will see from the First Schedule, to the lower range of the Civil Service, to teachers, to the police, to firemen, to members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, to local government officials and to certain collectors of taxes. The

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general scheme, which I need not ask your Lordships to go through with me, is to make, subject to the necessary conditions, percentage increases.
The second part of the Bill, which is in Clause 2, deals with a different matter. It contains a scheme of a special character, which is applicable to the pensions of certain classes of civil servants who retired after February 20, 1922. I had better explain the significance of that date. After February 20, 1922, Civil Service pensions were arranged to fluctuate with the cost of living, and that system continued for some time. In fact about that time the cost of living began to fall, and it fell steadily from 1922 until in 1934 both pensions and bonuses were stabilized. I think the cost of living figure at that time was about 150. Since then, as your Lordships know, the cost of living has somewhat increased, and the figure now stands at about 200. There is, therefore, manifest justice in making special provision in the direction of meeting that case, and the percentage addition to these pensions provided for in Clause 2 is designed to contribute to that end.
It is temporary provision; as provided in the Bill, it will end on December 31, 1945. We shall know better where we are then, and some matters which are still veiled in mystery may then have become somewhat plainer. This is, frankly, a temporary measure, though very acceptable, I am sure, to those who will benefit by it. The whole matter will have to be reviewed before the end of 1945. That is the nature of the Bill. It is a difficult subject, and. I hardly think that your Lordships will wish me to deal with it in more detail. There is no doubt that it will be welcomed by those who benefit by it. The Bill passed the House of Commons without a Division, and I commend it to your Lordships on this occasion and move that it be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

POLICE AND FIREMEN (WAR SERVICE) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, noble Lords who have read the Explanatory Memorandum attached to this Bill will have observed that the object of the measure is to amend the Police and Firemen (War Service) Act, 1939, in order to cover certain contingencies for which experience of its working has shown provision to be required. I do not think that there is any need for me to weary your Lordships by a full and detailed examination of the somewhat complicated clauses of the Bill, and I shall therefore confine my remarks at this stage to a very brief review of what the Bill sets out to do.
The object of the principal Act, which, as I have said, was passed in 1939, was to confer upon those men who joined the Armed Forces and were injured or killed (and also upon their wives) benefits similar to those which would have been received had they been injured or killed while serving as police or firemen. Many noble Lords will be aware that the Police and Fire Service pension schemes provide higher scales of pension in the case of men retired or killed as a result of injuries received while on duty than when retirement or death is due to ill health arising from other causes. The principal Act enables the police authorities in the case of war injuries to increase the pension to the appropriate amount under these higher scales, after taking into account, of course, the pension provided by the Ministry of Pensions. These principles were further extended by Defence Regulations to police and firemen who have been transferred to civilian war work of national importance.
This Bill has been drawn up to deal with certain anomalies which have arisen, but it does not in any way alter the principles of the Act of 1939. Under the terms of this Bill, the police authorities will no longer be prevented from giving their men or the widows of those men the generous treatment which they so richly deserve, and which the 1939 Act clearly intended that they should receive. At the same time, the opportunity has been taken to deal with other matters which might cause difficulty in future, so far as they can be foreseen. I think that at this stage the House may perhaps agree to read the Bill a second time, although

771
there may be noble Lords who desire to raise questions of detail which could be more appropriately dealt with at the next stage of the Bill. I may mention that the measure was agreed to in another place without discussion, after a statement made by the Minister. I therefore beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

POST-WAR ECONOMIC POLICY.
VISCOUNT BENNETT VISCOUNT BENNETT had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government, whether or not, having regard to the close relationship between monetary and economic policies, they would indicate their proposed postwar economic policy, prior to the discussion of the Joint Statement by Experts on the Establishment of an International Monetary Fund (Cmd. 6519); and to move for Papers.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I shall endeavour to compress my observations within a very narrow compass. When I placed this Motion on the Order Paper, I anticipated that at an early date an opportunity would be afforded to your Lordships to discuss the Joint Statement by Experts on the Establishment of an International Monetary Fund. Action has been taken in that direction, and a week from to-day the House will have an opportunity to discuss the matter. The Paper itself is described as a statement of principles affording a suitable foundation for improved monetary co-operation after the war. My Motion merely seeks to obtain from the Government such information as will enable your Lordships —at least, I speak for myself—to have an intelligent appreciation of the conditions under which the report was made. A report of experts is always interesting, but it is important to know to what extent it is based upon facts on the one hand or assumptions on the other. On many occasions great difficulties have arisen out of erroneous assumptions on the part of those who prepare reports. So far as facts are concerned, that is another matter entirely, and I take it that
772
the experts, in the preparation of the report, had before them certain facts; but they also made—must have made—certain assumptions; and it is with respect to those assumptions that I think your Lordships are entitled to some knowledge before we are asked to give our approval to the statement of the experts as a suitable foundation for such a discussion. That is the only position that I desire to make clear to your Lordships as being behind the Motion which I have on the Paper.
For instance, we know the close relationship between monetary and economic policy. It need not be argued in your Lordships' House, and the very terms in which the Motion has been put involve of course trade. They do not involve domestic trade: that is a matter which we regulate ourselves. But they do involve international trade, inasmuch as it is an international monetary system, and the primary object of providing for some measure of uniformity in values and exchanges and matters of that kind in international trade is to enable this country to maintain an export business and provide employment for our people. One has a right, I would submit with great deference to your Lordships, to ask the Government to indicate whether the experts, when they prepared this report, had before them knowledge as to whether for instance the McKenna duties were to be maintained. The McKenna duties are of vital importance with respect to monetary co-operation in the future. That is one question. We should, it seems to me, have some knowledge with respect to Imperial Preference: is that to be continued or disregarded? Some have suggested that the observations of the Prime Minister settled that question, but close examination of the words indicate that that has not been settled and we have no knowledge as to what the attitude of the Government may be with respect to it. Then there is the general question of tariffs. That is a vital question with respect to monetary policy for international purposes. I could name another, suggested to me to-clay in the discussion I had with one of your Lordships, which is the question of bulk purchasing and pooling.
It is true that the report of the experts makes provision for a three-year transitional period, but that is a matter which at the moment I do not propose

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to discuss. I do think, however, that we are entitled to have, as I say, some idea of the assumptions upon which the report is based. If the report is based upon the assumption by the experts that the McKenna duties are to continue, that Preference is to continue, that tariffs are to continue, there is still one further matter of the utmost importance—namely, what knowledge had the experts in the preparation of this report of the attitude of other nations with respect to tariffs and their effect on this nation? Are we to have freer access to the markets of other countries? Are the tariffs which have existed heretofore against the admission of our products into their markets to be lessened, or are they to be continued? We do know that, with respect to certain matters, power is given to the Executive of one of the great nations of the world to reduce tariffs by Executive action, but they cannot be reduced below 50 per cent. of the existing rate. Therefore that matter becomes important. What was the assumption in making this report as to the question of tariffs and of trade generally, and as to the trade of other countries in the world whose experts were present and took part in these discussions? That is all that I am seeking in this Motion—some information, before the discussion next week, as to the facts that the experts had before them and the assumptions upon which they produced the s report.
It will be observed that the report has, as a preface so to speak, an introduction by the experts from this Kingdom, as distinguished from the statement of principles which is made by international experts. Now it does seem to me that our own experts could without very great difficulty prepare a short statement indicating the assumptions which they made and the facts upon which they predicated their conclusions. Here is the statement of principles which they followed in the document, and they are, as your Lordships know, some ten in number. They are stated with great clarity, but they are of no value to you or me in arriving at a conclusion as to whether or not we should support the Motion which my noble friend Lord Addison will put before your Lordships next Tuesday. How can I arrive at a sound conclusion unless I know the facts and assumptions upon which these conclusions
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are predicated? It is for the purpose, if possible, of having a short Paper prepared and circulated by the Government—not a White Paper necessarily, but a short document that would give us some information with respect to the matters that I have indicated that I have raised this question to-day, in order that I may arrive at a conclusion as to whether or not there should be a continuance of discussions on these foundations. I should then at least know on what the foundations were built. I beg to move.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I hesitated about intervening because I thought the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, would perhaps follow the noble Viscount.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL VISCOUNT SAMUEL indicated dissent.
LORD STRABOLGI: I am sure the House will lose by that decision. May I with great diffidence congratulate the noble Viscount, Lord Bennett, on raising a matter the importance of which, I suggest, it would be difficult to exaggerate? I can think of no subject of greater moment to Parliament than that touched on by the noble Viscount. Like him, I do not propose to make any sort of examination of the question in advance of the debate which my noble friend Lord Addison is initiating next week on the subject of the White Paper on monetary questions, but I suggest to your Lordships that, in addition to the information asked for by the noble Viscount, Lord Bennett, there is another matter on which there should be some enlightenment, and that all discussions with regard to the White Paper and what it seeks to do are academic until the Government and the Governments of our great Allies in this war can say what is to be their future machinery for international consultation at the highest political level.
A year ago we had a debate in your Lordships' House illumined by the wisdom of my noble friend Lord Keynes and others on what were known as the White and Keynes schemes, the alternative proposals which have now apparently been married to a certain extent in this White Paper. I then made bold to suggest that if you set up any sort of international central bank, international clearing house or international currency control committee such as is described in the White Paper to be debated next week, that body

775
will be irresponsible unless you have some higher political authority representing the Governments concerned to which it will be answerable. Its immense power will be exercised by men who will have as little responsibility to the Governments and peoples concerned as, for example, the Bank of International Settlements had before the war. I suggest that the same considerations apply now—and this has a distinct and direct bearing on what has fallen from the noble Viscount in his speech introducing the Motion. My noble friend Lord Bennett referred to the need of some information being given to your Lordships on fiscal policy, tariffs, and so on, before we can gauge this matter. He mentioned also the very great problem of how long we may be forced to continue bulk purchases and the pooling of resources after the war. Until we know these things—I should humbly like to support what my noble friend said—it is very difficult to discuss the White Paper in a satisfactory manner.
May I carry your Lordships just a little further in this matter? Is it really supposed that we can settle these immense economic, fiscal, and financial questions in two or three years after the upheaval which has not yet reached its climax in Europe and the upheaval we are about to witness in Asia? I am sure that Lord Woolton would not commit himself to a transitional period of two or three years. I have heard much longer periods suggested by persons of great authority and knowledge. We shall have to have a working together of the principal Allies in this war, as they are doing now, for a much longer period than three years after the war if we are to make a satisfactory recovery from the confusion and chaos which will follow the armistice in Europe and, I dare say, the equally great confusion and chaos which will follow the cessation of hostilities in Asia. During that period, I suggest, the system of bulk purchases and the pooling of resources referred to by the noble Viscount will have to be continued, and all questions of tariffs and fiscal policy will have to be put into abeyance until we know where we are. All this, as the noble Viscount has said, affects most closely the very interesting proposals which are made in Command Paper 6519.
May I also suggest that some other information is required? The Government are
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committed, I understand, according to Lord Woolton and other spokesmen, to the policy of full employment and expansion. That is so; I have the assent of Lord Woolton. That may mean measures to assist exports. I do not think we can escape from that. In another place the Chancellor of the Exchequer has declared that it is quite possible that we can expand our export trade 50 per cent. above the pre-war figure. I was very glad to hear that. I do not see any difficulty at all if we go the right way about it. That means trade policies which affect other nations, and without discussing the White Paper I notice that the board of management or executive, or whatever it is going to be called, is not permitted to consider what are called domestic measures by a member State in giving its decisions regarding alterations in the value of currencies. Surely subsidies or assistance to the export trade are not domestic questions. They are extra-domestic questions. Therefore I go further than Lord Bennett and say we need to know a little more regarding the Government's proposals for bringing about full employment and their policy of trade and industrial expansion because these may be considered, in certain aspects, as extra-domestic matters and therefore to be taken into consideration by the board of management of the International Monetary Fund.
I know that Lord Bennett did not approach this subject in any other than a helpful spirit, and I wish to assure your Lordships on the other side of the House that I am approaching it in exactly the same spirit. I do not see any real difficulties ahead of us if we can only grasp the opportunities which will present themselves. This White Paper, representing the labours of these representatives of thirty-one nations, including the Russians, is one of many proposals for co-operation between the present Allies after the war. We have just had a remarkable conference of the International Labour Office at Philadelphia, and certain proposals have come from there for international collaboration. We had a very interesting discussion in your Lordships' House not long ago initiated by one of my noble friends on the future working of U.N.R.R.A. There is another example. If these hopeful examples of international collaboration can be knitted together and continued in some cases—above all, if the present machinery of international co-operation

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for war purposes can be kept in being for peace purposes—I can see a happy future eventually arising from the upheaval and sufferings of this war.
Therefore I am not supporting the Motion of my noble friend opposite in a different spirit from his own friendly approach, but I do think we need much more information on these matters as soon as it can be provided. It may be said that the future is too confused and too dark, that we have to wait for the outcome of the war, that we do not know how long it will last, that we have to wait for the Presidential and Congressional elections in America. That may be so, but we are entitled at least to a statement of principles. Until we can have such a statement of principles, we cannot really discuss the implications of the Command Paper with complete value.
LORD KEYNES: My Lords, I understand that the proposals of the White Paper are to be debated in your Lordships House next week, and I do not want to anticipate that debate in any way, but I would like to see whether I can help to answer Lord Bennett's question as to the usefulness of having that debate without more evidence on certain other matters. He is, of course, quite right, as they stated in their preface, that the experts conceived these proposals as part of a wider and more comprehensive scheme of international co-operation to cover other topics. I think it is quite a different thing to say that we can discuss one part of the plan first and to say that our post-war problems can be solved by that means alone without the aid of all the other schemes. For example, the stabilization policy of the cost of living will be very greatly facilitated if steps could be found to mitigate the fluctuation of international prices of primary commodities. The expansion of our export industries which is so vital to us would be much easier if obstacles to trade can be diminished or done away with altogether. The policy of full employment to which His Majesty's Government are committed would be immensely easier in practice if we could have a concerted policy with other countries, and if we all moved altogether and did not allow what is sometimes called the export of unemployment from one country to another.
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It is perfectly true we shall not know how to deal with our post-war problems as a whole until we have a complete plan before us covering all these subjects. That seems to me clear. But it is not so clear that we have, therefore, to postpone everything until we know the complete scheme, which may present great difficulties and for reasons that have been mentioned may have to be delayed for quite an appreciable time yet. To begin with, there is a logical reason for dealing with the monetary proposals first. It is extraordinarily difficult to frame any proposals about tariffs if countries are free to alter the value of their currencies without agreement and at short notice. Tariffs and currency depreciations are in many cases alternatives. Without currency agreements you have no firm ground on which to discuss tariffs. In the same way plans for diminishing the fluctuation of international prices have no domestic meaning to the countries concerned until we have some firm ground in the value of money. Therefore, whilst the other schemes are not essential as prior proposals to the monetary scheme, it may well be argued, I think, that a monetary scheme gives a firm foundation on which the others can be built. It is very difficult while you have monetary chaos to have order of any kind in other directions.
I see no particular reason why the understanding of the monetary scheme would be assisted by further knowledge on the other matters. In fact, if we are less successful than we hope for in other directions, monetary proposals, instead of being less necessary, will be all the more necessary. If there is going to be great difficulty in planning trade owing to tariff obstacles, that makes it all the more important that there should be an agreed orderly procedure for altering exchanges. Therefore I should say that so far from the monetary proposals depending for their success on the rest of the programme, they would be the more necessary if that programme is less successful than we all hope it is going to be. On the other hand, if we have firm ground on this particular issue it will be a great deal easier to reach a satisfactory answer on other questions. It is perhaps an accident that the monetary proposals got started first and are therefore more fully developed; but I am not sure it was not a fortunate accident for the logical

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reasons I have given. As we cannot talk about everything at once, let us talk about these first.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, Lord Keynes's intervention has been particularly fortunate because there must be many members of the House who would be a little perplexed as to what was the intention and what might be the advantage of the thoughts which Lord Bennett put forward. I cannot foresee what line Lord Woolton may feel he can take to-day in his reply on behalf of the Government. Most of us, I think, would associate ourselves with the aim of Lord Bennett in seeking something from the Government in advance of next week's debate. Before Lord Keynes spoke I had thought of intervening to refer particularly to one point which the noble Lord mentioned. He referred to the variations in the cycle of prices. My object was merely to suggest that if Lord Woolton finds it possible to conform in some manner to the suggestions of Lord Bennett he would not overlook sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 39 of Command Paper 6437, in which reference is made to the proposals with which Lord Keynes was associated—namely, action with regard to a Commodity Control.
Without forgetting that in these days everything must give way to winning the war, I may point out that encouragement from high quarters must be given to plans for the future. That indeed is Lord Woolton's main task. The question of what is to be the future of Government Controls in so far as they deal with raw materials, is exercising the minds of many and particularly the great industrial federations. Many think that, instead of time being spent on evolving schemes for dealing with particular commodities, there is need for reaching some general conclusions upon what is to be done in the case of commodity control generally. It must be the common experience of many that they are perplexed as to what is most likely to be suitable for different industries when they hear so many divergent views expressed as to the continuance of war Controls. The agricultural community recommends bulk purchase for prolonged periods with supervision of the activities of farmers in order to achieve good husbandry. Then we find that the non-
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ferrous metal industry is satisfied with the advantages given to it during control resulting in a stable market for the basic commodity of their industry. There are also other industries—for example, the tea industry—each of which deals with a commodity which normally is put into international trade by means of an auction procedure. Those engaged in such a trade desire to return to independent trade as quickly as possible. It is because of the confusion of aims in different spheres of national activity that I have ventured to underline the hope that Lord Bennett has expressed, and it is for that reason I support the aims which he has put forward.
THE MINISTER OF RECONSTRUCTION (LORD WOOLTON): My Lords, I ventured to ask Lord Keynes if he would be good enough to intervene in this debate, which was not his intention, because he can speak not only with his general authority but with particular authority, because he has been, as your Lordships know, one of the people who to the great benefit of this Government has been in the inner councils in all these exchanges of thought with various nations. I thought therefore he was in a better position than I was to speak to the noble Viscount. There are one or two points on which I can answer the noble Viscount with definition; on others I cannot. The first one is on the subject of Imperial Preference. It has been perfectly clear I think throughout that nothing has been said and no actions have been taken that render the present position regarding Empire Preference in any danger. You will have observed what the Prime Minister said on April 21 in another place. He indicated that throughout he had safeguarded the structure of Imperial Preference. Therefore it is clear that on that issue our delegates to the Conference in America were not in a position to give that up if they wanted to. Regarding the other duties, the McKenna duties and the agreements that we have with the Dominions and Colonies regarding sugar, those agreements remain. They were the basis, the status quo on which discussions took place. Your Lordships need have no fear that any of these Positions have been abandoned.
On the other hand, this was clear too, as was stated in the preface to Command Paper 6519, "Joint Statement by Experts

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on the Establishment of International Monetary Fund." It starts off by saying that it in no way commits the Governments concerned, and goes on:
"It is conceived as part of a general plan for international co-operation, the objectives of which, as a whole, would be the progressive development of international trade, active employment, reasonable stability of prices and the machinery for the orderly adjustment of exchanges."
Listening to the noble Viscount I realized that it would be much more satisfactory to him, and doubtless to others of your Lordships, if I could make a statement on behalf of His Majesty's Government saying that on these issues of tariffs we had come to quite clear and definite conclusions. I do not think I am going to make any apologies to your Lordships for the fact that we have not come to a conclusion on an economic policy dealing with these matters. You are dealing with a Coalition Government in which there are a variety of views on many of these economic problems, but one common view on the purposes for which they joined together as a Government. We thought it wise to pursue these questions with other nations regarding economic and monetary policy on the official level in order to see what opportunity might lie in the future for some basis of general agreement that would preserve the position of these nations and be to the common good.
We have not come to conclusions. I do not want to be platitudinous but obviously the problems are of a magnitude and of a complexity that I venture to think it is reasonable we should say that they have not occupied the attention of His Majesty's Government up to now or at the present time. The noble Viscount—if I may refer to a private conversation I had with him a moment ago—said, "But perhaps the Minister of Reconstruction has been considering these things." That is true, but these are matters that properly can only be settled by the War Cabinet and must be settled I think in the presence of the head of the Government of the day. For my part I say quite frankly that I would do everything I could to preserve the head of the Government to-day from having at this moment to deal with these highly contentious problems. We have for many weeks been engaged in the preparation of plans for great military operations. Those plans which we now see unfolding have quite properly occupied the attention of the War Cabinet
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and particularly of the Prime Minister. They are being pursued now with great vigour and fortunately with all the signs of success. It is on these martial issues that our future economic life will depend, and I find myself in complete agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, when he asked who would dare to prophesy in this indefinite period—indefinite both in time and circumstance—what will come from now on and follow the end of the war in Europe and perhaps the end of the war with Japan.
Therefore I say that we have not yet come to conclusions on these issues. But there are some conclusions to which we have arrived which I think must affect the consideration which you will give to this problem when you discuss the monetary side next week. Our economic policy must be based on realities. We must recognize our home needs, but very clearly indeed we must recognize, as perhaps we have never needed to recognize in the past, the economic strength of other countries. We have learnt something during this war. I think that, perhaps, many of us have learnt that if we are going to preserve peace in the future we must be prepared for war. Certainly those of us who have been associated either with agriculture or with the problem of feeding the people of this country have realized that our home industry is not only a matter of economics but a matter of defence, too, and that cheapness is not the only criterion of value. These seem to me to be economic issues of some considerable importance. During the last few months my colleagues and I have spent the major part of our time in trying to conceive and to prepare the sort of plans that will give us social and economic stability inside this country, better conditions of living, better medical provision for people when they are ill, greater security from personal, industrial and physical mischance, better houses to live in, and better security for our food supplies. But all these things depend for their fulfilment and their success on whether we can get trade moving in this country—and from this country to other countries—in sufficient volume.
I have, on two previous occasions, and at some length, developed to your Lordships the expansionist theories that my colleagues and I share, and on which we pin so much of our hopes for the future.

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The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, is right in saying that we are committed—and we are happy to be committed—to a policy of full employment. Full employment means something more than full employ-men in this country. It means full employment over wide areas throughout the Empire and, I think, over a greater area than that. We have been very considerably occupied during this last fortnight with meetings of Dominion Prime Ministers, meetings of very great importance, and these issues are before not only this country but the whole of the Empire too. I believe that it is through the development of that expansionist policy that we shall be able to get the very great benefits for which we are looking in the future. The conclusion at which we have arrived is that the Government are endeavouring to work on the basis of an expansionist policy; that they are working in concert with the Commonwealth and with foreign countries to establish world conditions that will be favourable to the development of our own export trade. I think we have reason for believing that other countries are recognizing the importance of our having a large export trade, hut, of course, whether we get it or not will, in the long run, depend upon one factor, which I regard as being probably more important than Government regulation—that is the efficiency of our own manufacturers in this country, and their ability to secure that trade.
We shall not be able to afford all these good things for which we are looking in the future unless we earn them. We shall not be able to earn them unless our manufacturers by their skill, by their enterprise and by the application of all the scientific knowledge which they have used so fully in war, for the preparation of weapons of war, produce, efficiently and in adequate volume, commodities that go to meet the needs of people in time of peace. If they use that scientific knowledge to which I have referred, with the same eagerness that they have shown in using it during these last few years, I believe that we shall be able to get that large increase of export trade on which the whole of the policy of full employment in this country, in the long run, will depend. My colleagues in the Government and I are looking forward to the debate next week on monetary policy in order that they may be fortified by the
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opinions expressed in this House on the subject (as on so many other subjects) by people who are highly qualified to speak. I assure your Lordships that we shall take great notice of the debate.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, the general attitude taken up by the noble Lord is not, I think, open to criticism. I am sure your Lordships will agree that the Government cannot be expected, at this juncture, to make any major declarations of policy on great economic issues that will confront the world at the end of the war. Such questions as those mentioned by the noble Lord who opened the discussion, and also by the noble Lord who has just spoken—questions of Imperial Preference, tariffs, and economic nationalism—cannot, at this moment, be the subject of decisions by Governments, and should rightly be kept to the expert level being matters for preliminary exploration and, if it is possible, for proposals.
I was made a little anxious, however, by one phrase which fell from the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, when, in an endeavour to reassure my noble friend Lord Bennett, he said that in the discussions which had taken place between the British representatives and those of other countries, the status quo in the matter of tariffs and economic matters in general had been safeguarded. No doubt that will be very welcome to my noble friend Lord Bennett, but to those of us who take somewhat contrary views to his on many economic matters this assurance that the status quo has been safeguarded does not give the same satisfaction. We think that the status quo should be changed. From the noble Lord's speech, however, I gather that his assurance was not that the status quo would not be changed, but merely that such steps had been taken as to keep policy entirely open, and that no matter of policy would be prejudged and no future action would be precluded. That appears to me to be the right course. I make these few observations only to register the point that we trust that the safeguarding of the status quo is not the purpose of His Majesty's Government.
VISCOUNT BENNETT: My Lords, my question still remains unanswered. If the situation were so difficult that the Government could not deal with the problems which arise out of trade, how is it that the much more intricate and difficult

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monetary problem is to be considered? That is the real question. There is no problem which is so fraught with far-reaching consequences to this island and to the world as the monetary problem. I think that that is generally conceded by those who have given thought to it. If I venture to think that that is influenced largely by trade considerations, I can only say that I read that into the White Paper which has been submitted, and also gathered it from what I have learnt as a student sitting at the feet of Gamaliel in the person of my noble friend Lord Keynes. We have all learnt much from him in his position as a leading expert.
He is and always has been a cautious man. He is the only expert I know of who has said in one of his books that a previous book which he wrote was not to be regarded any longer as being sound. It requires great courage and great ability to do that, but he did it. I did think it desirable, therefore, before we ventured to discuss this very important document on Tuesday next, that we should have some clear understanding and appreciation of the assumptions and the facts on which it was predicated. I am bound to say that the noble Lord, Lord Keynes, did not in any sense, for reasons best known to himself, endeavour to answer that. The noble Lord who spoke for the Government, Lord Woolton, did give the answer that regard must be had to it, but the discussion of the main problem of monetary policy is much more complicated and difficult, and, if the reason he gave for not making a pronouncement with respect to fiscal and economic policy is sound it is even more sound with regard to this matter of monetary policy.
I have no desire to cause the slightest embarrassment to the Government or to any member thereof in connexion with this matter. I thought, however, that it would be a simple matter to make certain statements. I am bound to say that Lord Woolton did clarify some of the difficulties which had been in my mind. It was obvious that the Government could not deal with finality with many matters affecting fiscal and economic problems at this time, and it is quite sound that the time and the mind of the head of the Government should not be diverted from the consideration of the problems with which he has to deal as Minister of Defence for The purpose of dealing with these
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other matters. I agree with what Lord Woolton said in that regard, and I know how difficult it would be to ask that that should be done.
On the other hand, there are certain very simple statements which I thought could be made—some of them have been made to-day—to clarify the situation and enable us to realize that Lord Keynes, in dealing with this problem as the expert representative of this country, did not do so from guesswork. He is not given to that sort of thing. It was in order that we might have some realization of the assumptions and facts upon which this Paper has been drawn up that I made the inquiry which I did. The Paper deals with the purposes and policies of the International Monetary Fund, and it will be observed from that that the question of trade was the paramount question. I noticed the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, making a note when Lord Woolton made the observation which he did, and I therefore anticipated the noble Viscount's speech. That, however, does not lessen the value of the whole debate.
I should like to repeat that I have no desire to place the Government in a difficult position or to cause them embarrassment by asking them to undertake something which they find it difficult or impossible to undertake at the present time. My assumption was that it would not be difficult for the noble Lord, Lord Keynes, to make a short statement regarding the assumptions and facts on which these conclusions were based. Apparently that is too difficult a thing to be contemplated at the moment, and therefore it only remains for me to thank the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, for the observations which he was pleased to make, in some of which I find, if I may say so to my noble friend Lord Samuel, great comfort, but in others of which I find less enlightenment than I had hoped to obtain. That is not on account of any lack of willingness to give the information, but because it is not feasible, at the moment, to secure it. The noble Lord's statement amounts to what a distinguished practitioner of the law used to call "a plea in confession and avoidance." There was a great deal of avoidance and not much confession. I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

WOOL STOCKS IN AMERICA.
LORD BARNBY LORD BARNBY asked His Majesty's Government whether in view of the statement made on the 5th April, and to avoid misleading conclusions from figures published in the United States if inaccurate, they will now publish accurate information on the stock pile of British Government owned wool lying in the United States. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the whole dry question of commercial statistics was discussed in this House on April 5 last, when emphasis was laid on the contention that the suppression of statistics was greater than could be justified on grounds of security. The noble Lord, Lord Templemore, in a very full statement, laid particular emphasis on the very proper need to avoid disclosure of information to the enemy, but, apart from that, he gave a good deal of information as to the guiding principles which governed decisions affecting the publication of this information. I gave instances, however, showing that the grounds of apprehension which were alleged did not exist, and in view of the unconvincing nature of the statement I implied that I would ask again. Since that date there has been a fuller publication of figures in the United States. These appear to support the contention that, since no question of any danger to security is involved, it is desirable that accurate information be now released by His Majesty's Government.
There can be no doubt that damage is being done by false deductions which are drawn. To put the matter in proper focus I would like to quote a statement of the Chairman of the Australian Wool Board, who is reported to have said that it may be contemplated that the end of the 1944–45 wool season may well see an accumulation of some 10,000,000 bales, of which 6,000,000 would be in Australia alone, and this would take no account of unshipped surpluses accumulated in South Africa and New Zealand. Taking Australia alone, on the basis of current issue prices, say £30 per bale, this represents an investment by the taxpayer of some £180,000,000. If say 2,000,000 bales only were added for other accumulations, there would be a total of £240,000,000. This represents property of the taxpayer. I quote these figures to show that the vigilance of Parliament is necessary in watching these matters.
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In normal times very complete and regular figures of wool stocks at origin are regularly issued by the Dominions concerned. These are now suppressed, doubtless at the request of His Majesty's Government. The whole procedure goes beyond any possible requirements on grounds of security. In the case of the stock pile owned by His Majesty's Government and held in the United States, to deny information here which is freely published in the United States tends to bring the whole procedure into derision.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I must first apologize to my noble friend for the unavoidable absence of Lord Portal, who is engaged at an important meeting, and he has therefore asked me to reply to the question. Lord Barnby referred to the discussion which took place in this House on the 5th April, a discussion on commercial statistics generally. My noble friend on that occasion referred to two figures recording the stock piles held in the United States of America and said that the figures of the stock piles had been published in that country. I understand that there has been no official publication at all of the wool stock pile figures held in America, and that the reference to which my noble friend refers seems to be to a figure which was published by a private firm in the United States. The situation has not really altered, and my noble friend has come to the conclusion that it is still not desirable to disclose our stocks of raw material, whether they may be held in this country or overseas, and he regrets that he cannot make an exception in the present instance.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, I would like to thank my noble friend for his answer and, with the permission of the House, to ask him to inquire more closely into the accuracy of the statement which he has made, because I have before me information from the United States which gives the exact figures, and this is a repetition of publication of these figures on previous occasions. It is on these grounds that I say that the Government's attitude brings the whole procedure into derision. I hope my noble friend will make the strongest representations in the appropriate quarters that it is regrettable that a course has been followed

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which is likely to endanger national assets owing to the false deductions drawn in the absence of correct figures.

MIGRATION WITHIN THE EMPIRE
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, I do not propose to ask the other question which stands in my name on the Order Paper with reference to migration within the Empire.
LONDON AND NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY BILL.
Reported with Amendments.

DERWENT VALLEY WATER BILL [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders have not been complied with in respect of the Petition for additional provision in the Bill.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

AGRICULTURE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL.
Report from the Standing Orders Committee that the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the Bill ought to be dispensed with.
Read and agreed to.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department extending Section 1 of the Act to the
Borough of Beddington and Wallington:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
Report by the Treasury on Clause 5 of the Bill presented to the House of Lords pursuant to Standing Order No. 79 and referred to the Committee on the Bill.
  MALARIA IN WEST AFRICA.
  MALARIA IN WEST AFRICA.
  MCLAREN HALL, KILLIN.
  MCLAREN HALL, KILLIN.