Sitting of 15 March 1944

Preamble
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
NEW WRIT
For the Borough of Camberwell (North Division), in the room of Charles George Ammon, Esquire, now Lord Ammon, called up to the House of Peers.—[Mr. Whiteley.]
PRIVATE BILLS

  STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table,—Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
  London and North Eastern Railway.
  Bill committed.

PRIVATE BILLS [Lords]

  STANDING ORDERS NOT PREVIOUSLY INQUIRED INTO COMPLIED WITH
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table,—Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:
  Jewish Colonization Association [Lords].
  Bill to be read a Second time.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  DARDANELLES (MONTREUX CONVENTION)
  Mr. Purbrickasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what improve-
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  ment in shipping dues for cargo ships passing through the Dardanelles has been made by the Turks since 15th August, 1936, in accordance with the Montreux agreement of July, 1936.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): No change has been made in the scale of taxes and charges levied on merchant shipping passing in transit between the Mediterranean and the Black Sea since the date of entry into force on 15th August, 1936, of the Montreux Convention. The dues remain as set out in Annex I of the Convention. The Convention only provides that no taxes or charges other than those contained in Annex I shall be levied. It does not require the Turkish authorities to reduce them.

  ENEMY COUNTRIES (UNITED NATIONS POLICY)
  Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if consideration has been given to a post-war policy of restitution that will be imposed upon the enemy countries; can he make a statement upon it; is it intended to avoid the results of the Versailles settlement and have restitution carried out in such a form that the people will benefit and economic equilibrium be maintained.
  Mr. Eden: This matter has naturally received some preliminary consideration by His Majesty's Government, but I cannot at present make any statement on it. The policy eventually to be adopted will be for all the United Nations to settle, and a decision can hardly be reached until it is possible to appraise more definitely the economic condition and circumstances of the enemy countries at the end of hostilities.
  Mr. Smith: In view of the effects on our country of the policy followed after the last war, are not preliminary discussions necessary among the United Nations, in order to find a policy that will avoid an upest of the economic balance, such as then occurred?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir, there has already been an exchange of views on this subject. There was an inter-Allied declaration some time ago on the subject, and the work has been going on since then.

  BRITISH PRISONERS, FAR EAST
  Mr. Granvilleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if, as a result of recent inquiries, he has any further statement to make with regard to the ill-treatment of British prisoners in Japanese hands.
  Mr. Eden: Generally speaking, the position remains as described in my statement of 28th January last. His Majesty's Government have as yet received no replies to their representations regarding the provision of facilities for visiting the camps especially in the Southern area, and of particulars of our prisoners of war. The latest of these representations was despatched to the Protecting Power on 26th January.
  Mr. Granville: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the statement which he made several weeks ago caused a great deal of anxiety among the relatives of prisoners of war in the Far East, and that there is an impression that the Foreign Office do not follow through very well? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Can he get into touch with the Russians in regard to this matter?
  Mr. Eden: I do not in the least accept the suggestion in the hon. Member's question. I have myself seen representatives of relatives of the prisoners, and I do not think the hon. Gentleman should make those charges without some justification. We have been at immense pains to try to do something for these unhappy people, and it will only cause uneasiness where it is not justified, for suggestions of that kind to be made. It is not Within the power of the Foreign Office, or of anybody else in this country, to make a barbarous Japanese humane.
  Mr. Shinwell: Will the right hon. Gentleman recall suggestions which I ventured to make to him when he made his original statement on that matter, that he should try to use the good offices of the Russian Government?
  Mr. Eden: I have recalled it, but I would rather not make a public statement about it.
  Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: While dissociating myself from any criticism of the Foreign Office, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he has considered that some comfort might be brought to these
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  relatives, if reference were made to camps where conditions are known to be good?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir, and I did draw a distinction in my statement between the Southern area and the Northern area in that respect. If I can get any more information on the matter, I shall be only too glad to give it to the House.
  Mr. Sorensen: When is the right hon. Gentleman likely to receive some report from the Vatican regarding their activities?
  Mr. Eden: We are in constant touch with the Vatican. If the hon. Gentleman wants any information, I shall be very glad to let him have it.

  YUGOSLAVIA (POLITICAL SITUATION)
  Mr. Granvilleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if it is his intention to begin discussions in London with King Peter of Yugoslavia and M. Purich in the near future.
  Mr. Eden: We of course hope to have discussions on Yugoslav affairs with King Peter and M. Purich during their visit to this country.
  Mr. Granville: In order to secure a United Nations policy on the Matter, could not representatives of the Russian Government be invited to such a meeting, or be kept in close touch with the discussions?
  Mr. Eden: We keep our Allies informed of all phases of our policy, and I am in hopes that similar treatment will be meted out to us.
  Mr. Riley: Have the Purich Government any authority whatever in Yugoslavia?
  Mr. Eden: I do not think that helps us very much.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Pay Books (Transfers)
    Mr. W. J. Brownasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that members of the R.A.F. returning from North Africa and Italy experience as much as three months' delay in getting their pay books transferred to England,

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    during which time they are financially embarassed; and whether he will take steps to speed up this process.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Captain Harold Balfour): Airmen on returning home from overseas bring their pay books with them. I am aware that there were delays in payment in the past because of the time taken to reach this country of the pay transfer documents which contain essential particulars not included in the pay books. Arrangements have now been made for airmen on disembarkation in the United Kingdom to draw an advance of 75 per cent. of the balance of pay due to them as shown in their pay books, while extensive use is also being made of microgram facilities to secure the speedier transmission of the documents concerned. I hope that these measures will serve to eliminate avoidable delays in future.
    Mr. Brown: Can the Minister say when the arrangement to advance 75 per cent. of the pay books balance came into operation?
    Captain Balfour: On 10th January, 1944.
    Mr. Brown: Is the Minister aware that, as recently as last week, airmen coming from Africa landed with no advance of pay and have had to be helped out privately by their friends?
    Captain Balfour: I am not aware of that, and if the hon. Gentleman will give me particulars of such cases, I shall be very glad to look into them.

    Benevolent Fund (Pay Deductions)
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Secretary of State for Air what is the system by which deductions from an airman's pay to the R.A.F. Benevolent Fund are made; and whether such contributions are recognised to be of a voluntary nature.
    Captain Balfour: An airman who wishes to contribute to the R.A.F. Benevolent Fund may authorise the deduction from his pay of a subscription at the rate of half a day's substantive pay per annum. It is well understood by all concerned that this is a purely voluntary arrangement.
    Mr. Bellenger: Does my right hon. and gallant Friend realise the pressure that can be brought to bear by commanding officers who desire to see their units subscribe well to the Benevolent Fund, by making this something more than a voluntary contri-
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    bution? Will he do everything he can to discourage such action on the part of commanding officers?
    Captain Balfour: No suggestion has reached the Air Ministry that pressure is brought upon men by their commanding officers. If the hon. Gentleman has any information to that effect I shall be very glad to receive it.

  AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION (MAGNESIUM PLANT, COST)
  Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Minister of Aircraft Production what action has been, or is being, contemplated on the Report of the Select Committee on the £850,000 spent on a magnesium plant and on the discrepancy between the estimated cost of £300,000 and the actual cost of £1,600,000; and what disciplinary action is contemplated.
  The Minister of Aircraft Production (Sir Stafford Cripps): There was in 1940 an urgent need for additional magnesium producing capacity and the decision to build the magnesium plant was taken in the light of all other possible alternatives then open to the Department. It was considered by those then responsible as the most effective way of meeting the urgent need, and I see no reason to think that the decision taken was not justified. Accordingly, the last part of the Question does not arise. The other part of the Question, dealing with the discrepancy between actual and estimated cost of a magnesia factory is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply.
  Sir W. Smithers: Surely, in the interests of the taxpayer, when there is a discrepancy between the estimate and the actual cost, this kind of inefficiency should be punished in some way or other?
  Sir S. Cripps: The matter of the discrepancy is one for the Minister of Supply, as I have already stated.

  MERCHANT SHIPPING (GREAT BRITAIN AND UNITED STATES)
  Sir W. Smithersasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport the tonnage of merchant shipping owned by Great Britain and the U.S.A., respectively, in 1939 and the latest comparable figures.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker): The tonnage of sea-going merchant vessels registered at United Kingdom or Colonial Ports in 1939 amounted to about 22,000,000 tons in deadweight. The corresponding tonnage of vessels registered at United States ports was about 12,500,000 tons deadweight. I regret that it would be contrary to the public interest to give the corresponding figures of the tonnage registered at the present time.
  Sir W. Smithers: In view of the fact that we stood alone for one year, and in view of the fact of our losses in the Allied cause, will the hon. Gentleman see to it that consideration is given to these two factors in any post-war international arrangements?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir, certainly.
  Mr. Shinwell: Is my hon. Friend aware that the differences in the present figures between the British and the United States Mercantile Marine are frequently published in the shipping periodicals? Can he say whether any steps are being taken by his Ministry in order to reduce the leeway for the British Mercantile Marine?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: The figures which are published have no authority behind them. Of course, we are doing everything we can to build up our Mercantile Marine.

  RAILWAYS

    Underground Services (London)
    Sir Ralph Glynasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport if he will arrange with the L.P.T.B. for a more frequent service of trains on the various underground railways in view of the altered conditions since the present restricted services were imposed and the need to divert travel from petrol vehicles whenever possible.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: During the last two years, the train services of the London Passenger Transport Board have been substantially increased. During the peak periods, there are now the maximum number of trains that the lines will carry. The services at other times are a little less frequent than before the war, but the trains keep their full number of coaches, instead of being reduced in length, as they were then. Taken as a whole, the services now in operation are the maximum that can be operated with the present staff.
    Sir R. Glyn: Does the hon. Gentleman really indicate that the number of trains operated at the peak period is the same as the pre-war figure?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: That is what I am informed.
    Sir R. Glyn: I would like the hon. Gentleman, if he would, to visit a tube station in the evening when it is being used for purposes other than travel, to see the congestion and realise the risks which are now being run.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: That is after the peak period.

    Train Compartments (Inter-Communication)
    Mr. Wakefieldasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport if he will give an assurance that all new and renovated passenger rolling stock will contain suitable communication between the guard and every compartment in order that the guard of a train or other qualified train attendant may make announcements to passengers, such as arrival at a station, thereby avoiding the acoustic and other difficulties which at present exist when a train arrives at a station.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: My hon. Friend will appreciate that, with the shortage of labour and materials, it would be impracticable to carry out his suggestion at the present time, but I am glad to assure him that it will receive the fullest consideration when the renovation of passenger trains, and the construction of new rolling-stock, becomes possible again.

  LONDON PASSENGER TRANSPORT (RETURN TICKETS)
  Mr. Bartle Bullasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport if, in order to save paper and time, he will consider introducing return tickets on the services operated by the L.P.T.B. and a ticket which would be good for a specified number of journeys within a given time.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: The general introduction of return tickets on the Road services of the London Passenger Transport Board would greatly complicate the work of the conductors and conductresses, since they would have to carry many additional sets of tickets. For this reason, I think that

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  the balance of advantage is against the proposal made by my hon. Friend.
  Mr. Bull: What about the underground, and what about the answer to the second point?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: There are return tickets on the underground.
  Mr. Bull: If the hon. Gentleman can buy me a return ticket from Hyde Park Corner to Enfield West to-day or tomorrow, I will give him my next three months' clothing coupons.

  EMPTY LORRY JOURNEYS
  Captain Stricklandasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport how many toad-transport vehicles were sent by his Department from Hull to Manchester during the weeks ended 19th February and 26th February and the total number of unloaded miles covered on the outward and return journey.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: So far as I have been able to ascertain, 24 vehicles were sent by the Road Haulage Organisation from Hull to Manchester during the week which ended on 19th February, and 25 during the week which ended on 26th February. Forty-eight out of these 49 vehicles travelled with full loads in both directions; the forty-ninth returned light from Manchester, because it needed repair.

  PETROL PROSECUTION, TWICKENHAM (LETTER)
  Mr. Keelingasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he is aware that after a bench of magistrates imposed a nominal penalty on a Twickenham firm who had used petrol to send a lorry to have its tipping gear repaired, a Regional Transport Commissioner's chief assistant wrote to the defendants that the Commissioner took a serious view of the irregularity and would not hesitate to take the strongest possible action if any further irregularity occurred; and whether he will issue instructions that the practice of despatching a threatening letter after a conviction shall cease.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: As I have explained to my hon. Friend, it is the practice of the Regional Transport Commissioners to send a warning to operators of goods vehicles
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  who are convicted of misusing the fuel which they receive. I cannot agree with my hon. Friend when he describes this warning as a threatening "letter." The need to save petrol and rubber is still urgent, and I do not, therefore, think it would be right for me to forbid the Commissioners to warn those who have made mistakes, of what may happen if the mistakes occur again.
  Mr. Keeling: Does my hon. Friend think is right that after a man has been fined and has paid his fine, he should then receive such a letter from a civil servant?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: The firm has committed an offence. It was convicted and fined £2 and costs and the driver was fined. The defence was that they had not known what they ought to do. They ought to have known, and the warning was intended to make it quite plain that such a defence would not carry any weight again with the Commissioner.
  Captain Strickland: Had not the firm already been warned by the magistrates?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: The Regional Transport Commissioners carry very heavy responsibilities in the public interest. Even if sometimes they are a little over-zealous, I think it is better to trust to their discretion —[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—rather than hamper them in the execution of their duties.
  Earl Winterton: Are we to understand from the hon. Gentleman's two answers, that he suggests that these people have disciplinary powers?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: They are responsible for ensuring that the fuel which is issued to these operators is used for the purpose for which they get it. They must have the power to ensure that that is carried out. They are responsible to the Government for that.
  Mr. Keeling: I beg to give notice that owing to the obviously unsatisfactory reply I shall raise this matter on the Motion for the Adjournment.

  MINISTRY OF INFORMATION

    B.B.C. European Service
    Mr. Wilfrid Robertsasked the Minister of Information whether the decision to reinstate Torres in the European Service of the B.B.C. has been carried out.
    The Minister of Information (Mr. Brendan Bracken): Mr. Torres is being invited to return to his broadcasting duties at the beginning of next month.

    Journal, "Lettera Italiana"
    Mr. Ivor Thomasasked the Minister of Information why he has banned the issue of the "Lettera Italiana" circulated by the Free Italy Movement and the Friends of Free Italy to their members.
    Mr. Bracken: As my hon. Friend knows, the paper control regulations prohibit new publications during the war, and "Lettera Italiana" could not legally be published unless the Ministry of Supply issued a special licence to enable this to be done. This Ministry is constantly bombarded with proposals for recommending the publication by special licence of journals designed to serve foreign communities in this country. In our view we have gone to the limit already in making exceptions in favour of journals of this kind and we are unable to recommend a further concession in the case mentioned by my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Thomas: While not necessarily accepting the Minister's view that a stencilled sheet issued by an association to its members comes within this ban, would he be willing to issue a licence for the publication of the bulletin by the Friends of Free Italy, which is an English association of the highest standing?
    Mr. Bracken: Of course I cannot myself issue a licence. I could recommend the Ministry of Supply to issue such a licence, but I do not intend to do so because, as I say, it is quite impossible to start any more papers in foreign languages.
    Professor Savory: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will consider the interests of students of the Italian language in this country, who read every word of that valuable publication with immense profit? There is no other publication in Italian, so far as I know, in this country.
    Mr. Bracken: That is more an attack on the British Council than an encouragement of the Ministry of Information.
    Mr. Thomas: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Motion for the Adjournment.

    Ethiopia (Newspaper Article)
    Mr. Petherickasked the Minister of Information whether he has considered the article in the "New Times and Ethiopia News," a copy of which has been sent to him, suggesting that Ethiopia was reconquered solely by Ethiopian arms and that an intrigue is in progress by British military authorities to produce a faked plebiscite in certain areas in the country; and if, in view of the prejudicial effect on the Allied war effort, he will take action to stop this propaganda and counteract its effects.
    Sir Stanley Reedasked the Minister of Information whether he has considered the issue of "New Times and Ethiopian News" of 4th March, 1944, a copy of which has been sent to him, charging the British authorities with a gross breach of faith, intrigues to dismember Ethiopia and a plan for a faked plebiscite by British military authorities in reserved areas; and whether he will cease giving facilities for the publication of this paper.
    Mr. Bracken: I have read the article to which my hon. Friends refer. It is plain that the author is trying to champion Ethiopia by blackening the name of this country. But I think that the record of British military achievement in Ethiopia and of our subsequent dealings with that country can stand up for themselves.
    Miss Rathbone: Is the Minister aware that this paper, whatever its defects, has been a very useful watchdog in the interests of Ethiopia, and that if this particular article is unjustified, the best way to deal with it is to give a definite assurance that no such plebiscite has been arranged or is contemplated?
    Mr. Bracken: I am afraid I cannot agree with the hon. Lady. This paper contains attacks on England which are worthy of Goebbels. It has insulted the British troops who have rescued Ethiopia, and in my opinion it is a poisonous rag.

    Broadcasting Hours
    Mr. Magnayasked the Minister of Information whether, in view of the continued fall in the output of coal and the strikes in the coalfields, he will re-examine the question of the hours of broadcasting, with a view to closing down the news programme at 11 p.m. thus saving fuel, power and light.
    Mr. Bracken: The suggestion made by the hon. Member has been examined several times in the past two years, but it has always been found, after consultation with the Ministry of Fuel and Power, that its adoption would not result in any appreciable saving of fuel.
    Mr. Magnay: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a recent test from a London power station showed that the result would be an immediate drop in the load of 45,000 horse power, equivalent to a saving of 5,300 tons of coal?
    Mr. Shinwell: Instead of adopting these artificial devices to solve the fuel problem, might not the Government give a little time to considering their whole policy?
    Mr. Bracken: I, fortunately, have only one Department of the Government to represent. I dare say that the question will be read in the proper quarters. I did not quite understand the supplementary of the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Magnay), but if he will send his document to me I will look into it.

    Russia (British Publicity)
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Minister of Information whether he can give any information to the House as to the methods employed by the Soviet Government for making known to the people of Russia details of the material assistance we are giving to their war efforts, the achievements of the British Forces by land, sea and air, and also the war-time conditions of work and life of the people of Britain.
    Mr. Bracken: The Soviet Press and radio carry current news about the British war effort and the achievements of the British Forces, and information is also given in lectures to Soviet factory workers and the Red Army. The authorities there also undertake on our behalf the sale and distribution of "The British Ally" and "The British Chronicle."
    Sir T. Moore: Were the results satisfactory, and is there now closer and more understanding knowledge from our Russian Allies of what we are doing now?
    Mr. Bracken: I would not like to make such a great generalisation, but I can say that the sale of our papers in Russia is extremely good; in fact, we are constantly asking the Russians to provide us with more paper to meet the demands. I dare say that, by reading a paper for a long
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    time, people are helped to understand what we are doing.

    Meeting (Speaker's Absence)
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Minister of Information why no speaker was sent to a meeting, particulars of which have been forwarded to him; why no notice was given to the organisation concerned that no speaker would arrive; and what disciplinary action does he propose to take.
    Mr. Bracken: I understand that the speaker had been bombed out in a recent air-raid and had been sent to the country by doctor's orders. Unfortunately, the Ministry's London office were not informed, and they did not know that she was unable to keep her engagement. My hon. Friend will agree that in the circumstances, no action is called for and, in any event, the speaker was not a member of the staff of the Ministry.
    Sir W. Smithers: When the speaker was bombed out, why did not some official of the Ministry inform the organisation?
    Mr. Bracken: I thought I had explained that the official could not communicate with the convenors of the meeting, for the good reason that the official was not notified that this lady could not keep her engagement.
    Mr. R. J. Taylor: Did the right hon. Gentleman have any complaint from the audience?
    Mr. Bracken: None whatever.
    Mr. Rhys Davies: Would the right hon. Gentleman consider whether the attendance at these gatherings is sufficiently large to warrant continuing the work? Would he also consider the qualifications of these speakers?
    Mr. Bracken: That is rather a different question. All I can say to my hon. Friend is that these meetings take a great deal of organising. We certainly make no effort to thrust them on the community. As the Minister, I am always full of anxiety about what speakers or lecturers may say on platforms, because in the end some remark is brought to the attention of this House, and I have to justify my perambulating orator.

  BUILDING MATERIALS (COST)
  Sir R. Glynasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works what are the present day costs of timber

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  and bricks, compared with pre-war prices; and what percentage of these materials are used in the construction of the average type of council house.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Hicks): The cost of timber for building purposes has risen approximately 160 per cent. since 1939. At its present price it accounts for £130 of the present-day cost of a typical house, as against £50 pre-war, a difference of £80 per house, and represents over 25 per cent. of the cost of materials in a house. Bricks have gone up approximately 45 per cent. At their present price, bricks account for £84 of the present-day cost of a house as against £58 pre-war, a difference of £26 per house; this represents 17 per cent. of materials in a house.
  Sir R. Glyn: What steps are being taken to bring down the prices of timber? Is it really necessary that the prices should be so high, and what are the causes? Who is making the profit?
  Mr. Hicks: My Noble Friend keeps an eagle eye on the cost of all new building in this country, and is constantly examining the prices of the materials which go to make a house. Constant inquiries are being made about every section of the industry—bricks, sand, lime, cement, timber, and materials of every sort—and constant efforts are made to reduce the cost of raw materials.
  Sir R. Glyn: Is there any hope that prices will be brought down by Government action?
  Mr. Hicks: I think they will be.

  CAMP SITE, WELSH COAST
  Mr. Vernon Bartlettasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the contract entered into with Mr. Butlin to sell him after the war a camp on the Welsh coast, built for Admiralty use during the war, was drawn up in consultation with the Ministry of Health and the local authorities.
  The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Captain Pilkington): No, Sir.
  Mr. Bartlett: In view of the fact that quite a number of people are worried about this contract and the effect it might have on the amenities on the neighbour-
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  hood, could not a Paper be laid on the Table of the House?
  Captain Pilkington: This matter is to be raised on the Adjournment shortly, and I think that it will then be cleared up quite satisfactorily.
  Mr. A. Edwards: Is it not a fact that this site was owned by Mr. Butlin before the war for a camp, and that the Admiralty are merely using Mr. Butlin's own plans for their own convenience?
  Captain Pilkington: That may be so, but, as I said, the matter is going to be cleared up.

  COLONIAL EMPIRE

    Development and Welfare Grants
    Sir Alfred Beitasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) whether grants under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act, 1940, can exceed £5,000,000 in any one year if in any previous year, or years, they have fallen below that figure;
    (2) how it is intended that schemes which have been approved under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act, but not put into effect owing to war-time difficulties, shall be carried out, in view of the fact that unspent balances cannot be carried forward.
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Colonel Oliver Stanley): The Colonial Development and Welfare Act provides for expenditure on schemes for Colonial development and welfare up to a maximum of £5,000,000 in any financial year. Money not spent in any year cannot be carried forward, but can be reprovided in the subsequent year; of course, within the maximum limit. The statement of policy (Cmd. 6175) expressly stated that during the war it could not be expected that expenditure would reach the limit, but it also said that the limit would be subject to review and could be increased by Parliament. I can give an assurance to the House that a review will be undertaken before there is any likelihood of the annual expenditure reaching the maximum figure. Such a review would include not only the point raised in the Question, but the general adequacy of the provisions of the Act in the light of the experience gained since 1940 of the post-war requirements of the Colonies.
    Sir A. Beit: Does not that mean that it will be necessary to raise the maximum, in view of the fact that the Act expires in 1950, and that under present arrangements it will not have achieved what it was set up to do?
    Colonel Stanley: I stated in the House, in the Debate last spring, that, according to the experience gained in the last few years, it would seem that the maximum laid down under the Act was going to be inadequate for present requirements.
    Mr. G. Straussasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what expenditure under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act has been approved; and how much has been spent on Africa as a whole, the East African territories and Northern Rhodesia in particular.
    Colonel Stanley: As the reply necessarily contains a number of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Strauss: Does the Minister contemplate sending out a mission under the Development and Welfare Act, as the amount of money spent in these territories so far has been very small indeed?
    Colonel Stanley: No, I do not think that is the way to proceed. During my tour through these territories, I spent much time trying to see that appropriate machinery was set up in each Colony in order to prepare the plans. I do not believe that bodies in this country can really prepare detailed plans for a Colony of which they have no acquaintanceship.
    Mr. Strauss: Has not this action in the West Indies been very successful?
    Following is the statement:
    The total of commitments up to date under schemes approved under the Act is £7,590,995. The total of commitments in respect of till African territories is £2,058,957, of which £458,834 have actually been issued. The total of commitments in respect of East African territories is £413,238, of which £117,290 have been issued, and of Northern Rhodesia is £3,000, the whole of which has been issued.

    Disabled Service Men (Employment)
    Major Lyonsasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has
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    issued, or intends to issue, any recommendations or instructions to all Colonial Governments with regard to arrangements for the retraining and suitable employment of European and non-European disabled Service men.
    Colonel Stanley: Yes, Sir. I welcome the opportunity of making a statement on this matter. As it is rather long, I propose to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Major Lyons: I take it that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will see that his answer gets publicity in the required quarters?
    Colonel Stanley: It will be printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the statement:
    My purpose is to secure that, as far as the Government measures can prevent it, throughout the Colonial Empire, as in the United Kingdom, no disabled service man should find himself compelled by reason of his disability to subsist on charity. The resettlement in civil life of Colonial persons disabled as a result of enemy action (including their training to a new occupation where that is necessary) is an obligation of the Colony in which they live. The establishment of rehabilitation centres is likely to be a matter of considerable difficulty and expense in providing the specialised staff and equipment, and it is clear that the best results are likely to be achieved from the establishment of a few highly-efficient institutions, each serving as wide an area as possible, rather than relying on small institutions which can provide neither the specialised medical or surgical treatment, nor the training necessary in many cases to provide an alternative means of livelihood for the disabled person.
    Rehabilitation centres are being established in Accra, to serve Nigeria, the Gold Coast, Sierra Leone and the Gambia, and in Nairobi, which will accept disabled service men from all the East African territories, and also from Mauritius and Seychelles if required. At each of these centres the facilities provided will, it is hoped, include a vocational training centre (under a supervisor trained in modern methods), at which the men will be taught such trades as will afford them a reasonable prospect of earning a livelihood. The Palestine Government have

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    put forward specific proposals regarding the medical problems of rehabilitation and are now considering the problem of vocational training. In Malta also these problems are under close examination. I have addressed the Governors of a number of other Colonies with a view to ensuring that local arrangements are prepared in detail.
    Colonial Governments are being given particulars of the facilities provided for disabled men, both service and civilian, in this country, and are being asked to consider whether any special legislation is required locally, such as is contained in the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act. In considering questions of rehabilitation of Colonial persons, the fullest use is being made of the knowledge and experience of the Ministries of Health, Pensions, and Labour and National Service. The training of blinded persons for employment in the Colonies presents a special problem, on which St. Dunstan's and the National Institute for the Blind have been good enough to promise their co-operation. Colonial disabled service men who are brought to this country are eligible for all the facilities provided for British troops, and a few cases are now under treatment and about to start their training before they return to their homes.

    Social Policy (I.L.O. Conference)
    Mr. Edmund Harveyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the consideration of minimum standards of social policy in dependent territories by the Conference of the I.L.O., to be held in Philadelphia on 20th April, he can make any statement as to the attitude of His Majesty's Govment towards the draft recommendations; and whether the Colonial Office will be specially represented at the Conference.
    Colonel Stanley: This recommendation of 53 Articles has been drafted by the International Labour Office for discussion at the International Conference, at which representatives of my Department and a member of the Colonial Service will be included in His Majesty's Government's Delegation. Many of the principles contained in the draft recommendation are already being applied in the Colonial Empire, and the attitude of His Majesty's Government is generally favourable. I should prefer to avoid any detailed statement which might be regarded as limiting free discussion at the Conference.

    African Colonies (Rural Industries)
    Major Lyonsasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will now arrange for the selection and appointment in the early post-war period of an organiser with wide and appropriate experience, for the further development of cottage and rural industries in the African Colonies.
    Colonel Stanley: I am obtaining information from the East and West African Governments on the prospects and possibilities of the development of cottage and rural industries. Until I receive this information I regret that I can add nothing to the reply which I gave on the 28th October last.
    Major Lyons: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman expect the information fairly soon?
    Colonel Stanley: Fairly soon.

    East Africa (Trade Union Development)
    Mr. G. Straussasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the absence of effective trade union development in the East African Colonies, he will consider repeating the experiment which proved successful elsewhere of sending out British trade unionists to foster local trade union development.
    Colonel Stanley: Yes, Sir. As indicated in my reply to the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Riley) on 8th March, I am anxious to see this experiment widely extended, and was glad to note for example that considerable support was expressed for a departure of this kind in a debate in the Kenya Legislature in December last. I hope that this will be followed up.
    Mr. Strauss: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman making arrangements for sending out such a mission, or does he contemplate doing so?
    Colonel Stanley: It is not a question of sending out a mission. What the hon. Gentleman refers to is the appointment of trade unionists—people experienced in the trade union movement in this country—as Labour Officers in the Colonies.
    Mr. George Griffiths: Have not the trade unionists who were appointed Labour Officers in the Colonies in the past done very valuable service?
    Colonel Stanley: They have been very successful indeed.
    Mr. Griffiths: And they are still working there?
    Colonel Stanley: Oh, yes.

  TANGANYIKA (FOOD PRODUCTION)
  Mr. Harveyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the number of Africans in Tanganyika still engaged in enforced labour; whether he can given an estimate of the food prospects in Tanganyika, and what measures are being taken to safeguard and augment the production of food in the native reserves.
  Colonel Stanley: The number of Africans compulsorily employed is now 18,750. As the answers to the other parts of the Question are necessarily rather long, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Mr. Harvey: Has the situation improved now?
  Colonel Stanley: There is a slight improvement, but I am afraid that the general prospects must depend on the long rains, which are now nearly due.
  Following is the statement:
  No reliable forecast of food prospects can be made at present. Every possible means of encouraging production has been employed, including guaranteed prices. Abnormally large areas have been prepared for planting with foodstuffs, but it remains to be seen whether the rains, which have failed wholly or in part in many areas during the past two years, will be satisfactory in 1944. Given good rains and freedom from locusts, the harvesting prospects will be favourable, and food supplies should be sufficient for local needs. In the native areas minimum acreages have been insisted upon for each household, and special emphasis has been laid on crops least liable to drought and locust attacks. In the Central Provinces, the area most affected in the last two years, there has already been a fair rainfall and prospects have improved. Africans are being encouraged to build up reserves against inter-season shortage, and communal grain-stores are being erected.

  NORTHERN RHODESIA (ECONOMIC RESOURCES)
  Mr. Harveyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the Motion moved in the Legislative Council of Northern Rhodesia in favour of the appointment of a commission to investigate and report on the economic resources of Northern Rhodesia as a safeguard against the over dependence on copper; and whether any action is being taken by the Government with this end in view.
  Colonel Stanley: Yes, Sir. The Northern Rhodesia Government has arranged for a preliminary inquiry to be undertaken by an expert as to the possibility of developing secondary industries in the territory.

  KENYA (FOOD SUPPLIES)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that there is a grave danger of further crises and famine conditions in Kenya; if a statement on the Government's food policy can be given; and whether, in view of recurrent shortages, adequate attention is being given to the encouragement of agriculture in the reserves rather than drawing off native labour to work in the export trades.
  Colonel Stanley: Yes, Sir. I am well aware of the difficult food position, not only in Kenya, but elsewhere in East Africa, which is very largely due to repeated failures of the rains in the last two years. My latest information reports some improvement, but the position this year must depend on the long rains season now impending. Meanwhile the imports of foodstuffs already arranged to cover the deficiency are continuing. As regards the second part of the Question, while every effort is being made by the Governments to ensure maximum food production, it is one of my main anxieties at present to strike the right balance between the need for local food production and for the production of certain commodities which are of vital importance to the general war effort.
  Mr. Sorensen: Surely the right hon. and gallant Gentleman appreciates that the labourers in Kenya cannot possibly produce the articles required unless they are properly fed. Is not that, therefore, the primary consideration?
  Colonel Stanley: Of course it is, but they may be fed from food which they produce themselves, or, as was the case last year, with the assistance of imported foodstuffs, and it may be worth while to import foodstuffs which we can get elsewhere and go on producing things like sisal which we cannot produce elsewhere.
  Mr. Sorensen: Is there adequate importation of these foodstuffs?
  Colonel Stanley: Yes, so far, the programme is amply fulfilling the demands of the area.

  MAURITIUS

    Food Control (Administration)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that, despite the commission of inquiry now sitting in Mauritius, considerable discontent exists respecting alleged maladministration of food control; and whether, in view of strikes and disturbance, resulting in injuries and arrests, special investigation will be made through a Royal Commission or otherwise, on which there would be labour representation.
    Colonel Stanley: As regards the first part of this Question, wide measures of food control are necessary having regard to the isolated position of the island and its dependence on imported supplies. My adviser on Wartime Food Supplies has recently visited Mauritius to assist the local authorities with his expert advice on their problems of control and distribution. As regards the second part of the Question, the Commission of Inquiry was appointed by the Governor with my approval to report on the disturbances, and on the information before me I see no reason to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion for the appointment of a Royal Commission.
    Mr. Sorensen: Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman say whether we are likely to have a Report available to this House?
    Colonel Stanley: No, I am afraid I could not.
    Mr. Sorensen: Shall we have no information at all?
    Colonel Stanley: I did not say that. I said I could not, at the moment, say what information is likely to be available.

    Jewish Refugees
    Miss Rathboneasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Jewish refugees deported from Palestine over three years ago because they entered it without Palestinian certificates are still interned in Mauritius; and whether he will arrange for these persons, where suitable for employment, to be released for arms or civilian employment in Palestine or elsewhere and for their families to be sent back to Palestine.
    Colonel Stanley: There are some 1,400 Jewish refugees in Mauritius. Opportunities have been afforded for service with the Allied Forces to refugees who are suitable. Some 80 Czechs left the Island in 1942 for service with the Allied Forces but there were so many desertions from among those sent to the Middle East that the Czech military authorities cancelled the departure of further volunteers. These were given an opportunity of serving in His Majesty's Forces in the Pioneer Corps but they declined. It is open to any refugee in Mauritius to volunteer for service with the Pioneer Corps. In addition, eight Polish Jewish refugees left Mauritius in April, 1943, for service with the Polish forces in the Middle East. As regards the question of employment outside Mauritius these refugees are, in the circumstances of their transfer to Mauritius, precluded from entry into Palestine, and it has not been found possible up to the present to make arrangements for their employment elsewhere. As regards the last part of the Question, so far as I am aware four men who volunteered and were accepted for service with the Forces left their wives in Mauritius one has been admitted to the United Kingdom, and approval has been given for the admission of another.
    Miss Rathbone: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware of the circumstances under which these people originally tried to enter Palestine illegally and that the subsequent terror in Europe has fully justified their attempt; and that if they tried it on now they would have been admitted to Palestine? Is it not rather hard that they should be penalised for over three years for an attempt which would have been perfectly successful and justified if it had happened now?
    Colonel Stanley: The main thing is that in Mauritius they are in perfect safety.
    Mr. Silverman: Is it not a fact that a large proportion of these people are not qualified either by age or sex for service in any part of the Armed Forces, and is it not equally true that all these people have been kept in enforced idleness for three years in Mauritius, and is it not now possible to allow them to be engaged upon useful labour on the island?
    Colonel Stanley: They are engaged in useful labour on the island. They are not kept in enforced idleness, and everybody able and willing to work is working in the camp.
    Mr. Silverman: Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman say how long that has prevailed?

    Cost of Living
    Mr. Rileyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the unrest among the inhabitants of Mauritius due to increasing prices and a steep rise in the cost of living; whether he will consider the regulation of prices of essential commodities and also fix minimum wages in consonance with the increased cost of living.
    Colonel Stanley: The causes of the recent unrest in Mauritius are the subject of an investigation by a Commission of Enquiry. All possible measures of control of price and distribution of essential commodities are being constantly taken by the Colonial Government. Minimum wage rates for categories of monthly employed workers have been increased as recently as the beginning of this year.
    Mr. Riley: Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman say whether the increases correspond with the increased cost of living for workers in Mauritius?
    Colonel Stanley: If the hon. Gentleman will look at the very full answer which I gave on 19th January, he will find all the information.

  WEST INDIES

    Trinidad (Workmen's Compensation Ordinance)
    Mr. Fraserasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is the Government's intention to amend the Workmen's Compensation Ordinance in Trinidad; and when can legislative action be expected.
    Colonel Stanley: Yes, Sir. I am asking the Governor to inform me when legislative action can be expected.
    Mr. Fraser: Is the Minister aware that the workpeople have been promised this legislation for a very long time, and that they have been very patient, and can he assure tie House that this matter will be expedited?
    Colonel Stanley: I am trying to find out. The only difficulty is that there is to be a meeting later in the year of all the officers in the West Indies on the question of workmen's compensation, and the Government may think it better to hold up the legislation until after the meeting.
    Mr. Mathers: Is it not a fact that, 12 or 13 years ago, the Colonial Office provided a draft scheme of workmen's compensation recommended for adoption in all Colonies? Why should we still be waiting for information?
    Colonel Stanley: Perhaps the hon. Member will put that question down.

    Demerara Bauxite Company (Trade Unions)
    Mr. Fraserasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Demerara Bauxite Company in British Guiana does not allow their employees to be in membership of any kind of trade union organisation; and whether he proposes to take any steps in the matter.
    Colonel Stanley: My information is that membership of a trade union is not a bar to employment by this company. A full report from the Governor is, however, now on its way to me.
    Mr. Fraser: Is the Minister aware that, according to Press reports in this country, trade unions are prohibited by this company, and that workers in the bauxite mines are not allowed freedom of association?
    Colonel Stanley: I am not aware of that. On the contrary, a letter was sent to the labour union by the Commissioner of Labour, with the authority of the company, stating expressly that membership is not a bar to employment by the company.
    Mr. Petherick: Is it not highly undesirable, both in this country and the Empire, to force men to join a trade union if they do not want to do so?

    Jamaica (Constitution)
    Mr. Mathersasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what progress has been made with the introduction of the new constitution in Jamaica; whether the census returns on which the electoral roll is based has been completed; and when a general election will take place.
    Colonel Stanley: Good progress has been made in the preparations for the introduction of the new Constitution in Jamaica. The census returns on which the new electoral roll will be based are already in the hands of the Jamaican Government. It is not possible at present to state when a general election will take place.

    British Guiana and Trinidad (Franchise)
    Mr. Mathersasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the recommendations of the Franchise Committee set up in British Guiana and Trinidad three years ago have now been received and made public; whether census arrangements have been made in preparation for an extension of the franchise; and will he make a statement showing the present position and prospects.
    Colonel Stanley: I have received and am considering the report of the Franchise Committee in Trinidad. It will be published in the Colony together with Government's proposals for action on it as soon as these have been drawn up. I understand that a report signed by 11 of the 21 members of the British Guiana Franchise Commission has been submitted to the Governor, together with a minority report signed by one member. The Governor is awaiting the comments or signatures of the remaining members of the Commission. No special arrangements have yet been made for a census in connection with the possible future extension of the franchise in either colony.
    Mr. Mathers: Is the Colonial Secretary alive to the necessity for expediting this matter?
    Colonel Stanley: Yes, I am very much alive to it. I gather that it will be unnecessary to have special arrangements for a census. With regard to the position of British Guiana, the chief obstacle is that six members did not sign the Report, but said they would forward comments to
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    the Governor. These have not been received.
    Dr. Morgan: Can we have these Reports placed in the Library?
    Colonel Stanley: As soon as possible, I will lay them before the House.

  NIGERIA

    Official Appointments
    Mr. John Dugdaleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many official positions in Nigeria are held by the wives of British Colonial officials and traders.
    Colonel Stanley: Complete figures are not available here and the Governor is being asked for a report.

    Doctors (Salaries)
    Mr. John Dugdaleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state the salaries paid in Nigeria to European and African doctors, respectively, with the same qualifications.
    Colonel Stanley: There are two scales of salary in Nigeria for Government medical officers who are required to have similar minimum professional qualifications. Those not domiciled in West Africa and appointed by me to the Colonial Medical Service start at £660 and rise by increments to £1,200. Those domiciled in West Africa and appointed locally start at £400 and rise to £720.
    Mr. Dugdale: Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman say why there is this distinction, and whether it is not a fact that Africans domiciled in Nigeria have a definitely lower salary than Europeans who come to do the work now?
    Colonel Stanley: I dealt with this matter rather fully last week, in answer to a Question.

  ITALIAN FLEET (EMPLOYMENT AND DISPOSAL)
  Commander Sir Archibald Southbyasked the Prime Minister whether the Italian fleet which surrendered to the Allies is being employed under the Italian flag with the ships still owned by the Italian Government, or whether any number of them and, if so, how many, have been ceded to the U.S.A., Russia or Great Britain.
  Rear-Admiral Sir Murray Sueterasked the Prime Minister whether the Allied Governments have finally decided to transfer any portion of the Italian fleet to Russia; if so, what class of ships and how many will be transferred.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): I would refer my hon. and gallant Friends to the statement which I made on this subject on Thursday last to which at present I have nothing to add.
  Sir A. Southby: Can my right hon. Friend say whether we have transferred or contemplate transferring any British naval ships to Russia and, if so, whether their places in the British Fleet will be taken by Italian ships whether under the Italian or British flags?
  The Prime Minister: I do not desire to add in any way to the statement I made the other day.
  Sir A. Southby: Can my right hon. Friend say when he is likely to be able to make another statement on this subject?
  The Prime Minister: It is difficult for me to forecast the future in that respect.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS MEMBERS FUND ACT
  Mr. Glenvil Hallasked the Prime Minister if he will provide an opportunity for the House to consider the possibility of increasing the maximum allowances payable under the House of Commons Members Fund Act, 1939, at present limited to £150 per annum for an ex-Member and £75 for his widow and children, in view of the fact that as no grants from the National Exchequer are involved the matter cannot be raised in any Vote of Supply.
  The Prime Minister: I am advised that further experience is desirable before legislation to amend the House of Commons Members Fund Act, 1939, can usefully be considered. No confident estimate can yet be made of the number of Members who will retire, or will fail to secure re-election at the next General Election. At the end of a Parliament of unusual duration, a large proportion of Members will be qualified by length of service to apply for pensions. I would remind my hon. Friend that matters concerning the Fund were
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  discussed on 10th June last and I regret that, owing to the present state of business, I cannot afford a special opportunity for a Debate.
  Mr. Rhys Davies: Can the Prime Minister say whether we may take it, therefore, that a Fund like this is impossible of any actuarial calculation, so that benefits cannot be paid in relation to contributions on the usual actuarial calculations?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, I think that a Fund like this rests on the basis which was decided by the House. An exceptional strain may fall upon it, and no provision has been made yet to meet such an exceptional strain.

  AIR-RAID WARDENS (WAGES)
  Mr. Norman Bowerasked the Prime Minister if he is aware of the dissatisfaction existing among full-time air-raid wardens owing to the inadequacy of their present wage of £3 18s. 6d. per week; and if he will take advantage of the forthcoming discussions on service pay and allowances in order to consider the position of the Civil Defence services with a view to bringing them within the scope of any decisions which may be taken.
  The Prime Minister: The forthcoming discussions will be limited to Service pay and allowances, but, if any changes result, their effect upon Civil Defence will be considered.

  EX-MINERS (RELEASE FROM ARMED FORCES)
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Prime Minister whether he will now consider releasing miners from the services to that they may both produce more coal and also enlighten their comrades in the mines as to conditions in the services and their attitude towards unofficial strikes.
  The Prime Minister: Decisions as to the release of ex-miners from the Forces were taken some time ago, and releases are continuing in accordance with the arrangements described by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power in a statement he made on 22nd February. Releases under these arrangements began on 17th November,

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  1943, and up to 6th March some 3,160 men had gone back to the mines from the Army. There will be some further releases from the Navy and the Royal Air Force within the categories already eligible. It is not intended to broaden these categories of release at the present time.
  Sir T. Moore: In view of the rather parlous situation at the moment, does not my right hon. Friend think that this process of release should be expedited?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir, I think there are many competing claims.

  EIRE (SECURITY MEASURES)
  Professor Savoryasked the Prime Minister whether, as the residence in Dublin of Axis representatives is inconsistent with Eire membership of the British Commonwealth of Nations and in view of the refusal of Eire to remove these representatives, His Majesty's Government proposes to discontinue the supply to Eire of coal, petrol, tea and other commodities.
  The Prime Minister: I do not wish to add to-day to the statement which I made in the House yesterday.
  Professor Savory: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to try to realise the indignation of British seamen in being compelled to take these goods to Eire at the risk of their own lives, in view of the fact that Eire, by her refusal to place her ports at the disposal of this country, is responsible for the loss of thousands of lives of their comrades?
  The Prime Minister: I do not wish to add to what I said yesterday, and I do not feel that indignation is necessarily the most helpful element.
  Mr. Dermot Campbellasked the Prime Minister if His Majesty's Government has any evidence that, as suggested in the note delivered recently to Mr. De Valera by the U.S. Minister in Dublin, which was supported by His Majesty's Government, Axis diplomatic and Consular agents have been exploiting their position in Eire.
  The Prime Minister: It would not be in the public interest to discuss what information His Majesty's Government have regarding the activities of Axis agents in Southern Ireland.
  Mr. Campbell: May I ask the Prime Minister in the event of the answer being "Yes," to consider the provision of further personnel for the travel censorship at the ports from which ships sail to Ireland, so that the censorship might become effective and cease to be merely an intensely irritating formality?
  The Prime Minister: It seems to be rather difficult to discuss a question of this kind in the absence of the information for which my hon. Friend asked and which I was unable to impart.
  Professor Savory: In view of the immense difficulty of discussing these matters by questions and answers in the House, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this whole question on the Motion for the Adjournment.

  SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH
  Mr. Saltasked the Lord President of the Council to what extent capital grants for research enterprises have been made through the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research during each of the past 10 years; and whether he will consider the desirability of an extension of such grants in connection with postwar reconstruction, especially in connection with the rebuilding and extension of university and industrial laboratories.
  The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Attlee): With the exception of small grants for the purchase of equipment by scientists no direct capital grants have been made by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research in the last 10 years, although through its contributions to Industrial Research Associations, the Department has indirectly contributed to their expenditure on capital items. The making of grants for capital purposes is already under consideration as part of a comprehensive review of post-war requirements. The question of re-building and extending University Laboratories is a matter for consideration by the University Grants Committee in the first place.

  LOCAL PRODUCTION COMMITTEES
  Mr. A. Edwardsasked the Minister of Production what steps he proposes to take arising out of the protests of local

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  production committees that their services are not being utilised and their existence ignored.
  The Minister of Production (Mr. Lyttelton): I very much appreciate the excellent work which has been done by the great majority of the 78 District Committees under the Regional Boards, and should greatly regret it if one or two of them should have the feeling that their services are not fully used. I have no reason to suppose that such a feeling is at all general.
  Mr. Edwards: Is the Minister aware that the chairman of the local Tees-side production committee called on me the other day at Middlesbrough and said it was his intention to resign, because they were not taking the slightest notice of either the chairman or the committee; that he protested against the continued import of steel, of which they have very large stocks, which are causing men to be put out of work; and could not something be done?
  Mr. Lyttelton: There are a great many wide questions in that. The only complaint that I have had from the District Committee to which the hon. Member referred was last August. A great deal of correspondence took place with the Committee and I thought they were satisfied, but I am quite prepared to go into the matter with the hon. Member if he wishes.
  Mr. Edwards: Have they been consulted since that time?
  Sir Oliver Simmonds: Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of these committees do absolutely nothing, and would he consider suppressing them?

  DOMINIONS WAR PRODUCTION
  Mr. Granvilleasked the Minister of Production whether the recent figures given by him on war production include output from the British Dominions; and, if not, will he give similar latest available figures.
  Mr. Lyttelton: No, Sir. For reasons which the hon. Member will understand, it is not possible to give figures such as he desires. As I have previously indicated, the total contribution made by the
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  Dominions to war production has been very substantial, and amounts to more than 20 per cent. of our own.
  Mr. Granville: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the figures include partly manufactured munitions in the Dominions, and can he say whether the Joint British Canadian Production Board which he is setting up has any figures available?
  Mr. Lyttelton: I find it difficult to give details of production which have not been given by the responsible Ministers in the Dominions. The figures do not include raw materials.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Milk
    Brigadier-General Clifton Brownasked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that, owing to the new milk regulations being put into force in rural areas, many of the dairymen can no longer supply their customers with accredited raw milk and consumers must arrange for pasteurised milk which they do not believe in; and how he proposes to prevent any injurious results of the abolition of small dairymen in country districts.
    The Minister of Food (Colonel Llewellin): I regret that I am not sure what my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind, but I should be glad to investigate any particular cases if he will let me know of them.
    Brigadier-General Brown: While thanking my right hon. and gallant Friend for his reply, may I ask what is the good of having a standard of accredited milk, and then making it impossible for dairymen to sell it? Would it not be better to enforce the regulations?
    Colonel Llewellin: I do not think anything we have done makes it impossible for dairymen to sell accredited milk.
    Brigadier-General Brown: A man with over two herds can sell the milk from only one.
    Mrs. Tate: Is not the production of accredited milk often rendered farcical, as that milk is often ruined by pasteurisation?

    Jam
    Mr. Evelyn Walkdenasked the Minister of Food if certain accumulated stocks of home produced jams now in the hands of retailers and manufacturers are beginning to show signs of deterioration; and whether he will consider derationing unpopular varieties before they become unsaleable.
    Colonel Llewellin: I hope to make an announcement on this matter soon.

    Food Office, Liverpool (Staff)
    Mr. W. J. Brownasked the Minister of Food if he is aware that when two vacancies recently arose in the assistant grade at the Liverpool food office, women members of the staff were dissuaded by the deputy food executive officer from pressing their claims to be considered, so that all the posts in this office are filled by men, many of whom are of military age who have been seconded from local authority employment; and why it is inexpedient to employ in the Liverpool office women assistants who are employed in other offices of the Ministry.
    Colonel Llewellin: I am informed that the women members of the staff of the Liverpool food office voluntarily withdrew their applications for promotion when they were told of the nature of the duties attaching to the vacant posts. There is and will be no sex discrimination in the consideration of staff for promotion.
    Mrs. Tate: Will there be discrimination in pay?

    Catering Establishment Meals
    Dr. Haden Guestasked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that the serving of meals in private rooms at hotels and restaurants without restriction of price is a cause of black market purchases of offals, poultry, fish and shellfish; and whether he will extend the Order limiting the prices of meals to private rooms in hotels and restaurants.
    Colonel Llewellin: If my hon. Friend will provide me with any evidence he has in support of the statement made in his Question, I shall be glad to have it investigated.
    Dr. Guest: Is the right hon. and gallant gentleman not aware that I have already provided the Parliamentary Secretary with a large amount of evidence, and I
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    shall be very glad to provide him with some more? Unfortunately, there is a great deal.
    Colonel Llewellin: I shall be glad to have it. Of course, we want evidence on which we can proceed against anybody guilty of a black market offence.
    Dr. Haden Guestasked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that food served in certain luxury restaurants is suplied to customers in such quantities and bought at prices as do not give a fair margin of profit under the Order limiting the prices of meals and that, in order to compensate for this, the sale of wines at high prices is forced on customers; and whether he will consider the introduction of a Limitation of Prices Order, to include drink supplied at meals to prevent these abuses.
    Colonel Llewellin: The answer to the first part of the Question is "No, Sir," and to the second, that I have considered it and have come to the conclusion that it is not practicable to extend the present Order to wines.
    Dr. Guest: Will my right hon. and gallant Friend be good enough to look at the series of menus at luxury restaurants, which I can supply and have prices estimated on the quantities of food sold, from which he will see that it is quite impossible that these quantities of food could have been served within the limited price?
    Colonel Llewellin: I shall certainly be glad to look at any menus my hon. Friend sends me.
    Viscountess Astor: Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman go round and see for himself?

    Perishable Commodities (Points Rationing)
    Dr. Haden Guestasked the Minister of Food if he will ensure the fair distribution of offals, poultry, fish and shellfish by introducing a points rationing system for their purchase.
    Colonel Llewellin: No, Sir. I am afraid that it is not practicable to extend the points scheme to perishable commodities.
    Dr. Guest: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman not know that a points scheme for offals has already been put into

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    operation by certain butchers on their own volition and would it not be possible for his Department to do so? Does he not realise the feeling of intense indignation in the minds of millions of women shoppers, who have to queue for food, when they realise the enormous amount of good things which are being consumed by people, who ought not to be having them?
    Colonel Llewellin: It is not an easy thing to do. In the case of fish, the amounts are very variable. On the catches we get, we should lose quite a lot if they were put on the points scheme. The amount of poultry is not sufficient per head to put it on the points scheme.
    Dr. Guest: Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman be good enough to undertake an investigation into these matters, if I put him into touch with members of the catering trade who provided me with the information on which my questions were based?
    Colonel Llewellin: I shall be very pleased if my hon. Friend likes to bring some members of the catering trade to see me. I will certainly go into it with them, but do not let anybody think I have not already gone very fully into the matter.

    Fish Supplies, Merseyside
    Mr. Loganasked the Minister of Food if he has given consideration to the letter of 7th March, sent from the Liverpool food executive officer calling his attention to the disparity of fish supplies as sent to Merseyside; and is he now able to state if he can give Merseyside an additional port of supply.
    Colonel Llewellin: In view of the present demands upon transport, I cannot give Liverpool a second port of supply, but I am arranging for an increased supply of fish to be available in the Fleetwood zone.
    Mr. Logan: Are we to understand that in view of not being able to get transport we shall get a greater allocation in future?
    Colonel Llewellin: What will happen is that a ship will be diverted to the Fleetwood area to bring in more fish there, but the supplies for Liverpool will still be drawn from Fleetwood.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered:
"That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 14, Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before the hour appointed for the interruption of Business."—[Mr. Eden.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [3RD ALLOTTED DAY]
  Resolution [8th, March] reported:

  SUPPLY

    CIVIL ESTIMATES AND ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, 1944 (VOTE ON ACCOUNT)
    "That a sum, not exceeding £220,101,790, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the charges for the following Civil and Revenue Departments (including Education and Broadcasting, Pensions, Health Insurance, Unemployment Insurance and Assistance, Roads and other grants and Exchequer Contributions to Local Revenues) for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1945."—[For details of Vote on Account see OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th March, 1944; cols. 20782081, Vol. 397.]
    Resolution agreed to.

  WAYS AND MEANS
  [REPORT, 8th March]
  Resolutions reported:
  1 "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March. 1944, the sum of £3495,714 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  2. "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1945, the sum of £220,102,290 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  Resolutions agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in' upon the said Resolutions by the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Assheton.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 2) BILL,
  "to apply certain sums out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the years ending on the 31st day of March, one thousand nine hundred and forty-four and one thousand nine hundred and forty-five"; presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed. [Bill 17.]

  HOUSING
  The Minister of Health (Mr. Willink): I beg to move,
  "That this House, being concerned at the hardship caused by the stoppage of house building during the war and recognising the urgent need to provide for families without homes of their own, is of the opinion that all possible steps should be taken, consistent with the paramount needs of the war effort, to enable house building to be resumed at the earliest moment."
  Mr. Molson: On a point of Order. May I ask whether it is your intention, Mr. Speaker, to call the Amendment which stands on the Paper in the names of my hon. Friends and myself? Before you answer, Sir, may I give one or two reasons which might weigh with you in considering this matter?
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member cannot make a speech now. As a matter of fact, I can give him an answer straight away. I do not propose to call the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member and his hon. Friends because I think we ought to have a general Debate.
  Mr. Lipson: Further on that point of Order, may I ask if it is your intention, Mr. Speaker, to call the Amendment in my name?
  Mr. Speaker: I did not think of calling that Amendment either.
  Mr. Maxton: II I should happen to rise in the course of the Debate, Mr. Speaker, is it your intention to call me?
  Mr. Speaker: I would ask the hon. Member to wait and see.
  Mr. Willink: In the circumstances of to-day, no Member of this House and, I think, no member of any local authority, would venture to speak on the subject of housing without a sense of grave responsibility. Of no one should that be more true than of a Minister of Health with so short a period of official responsibility behind him as mine. To me and to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has been committed Departmental responsibility for housing policy at a time when the problems of housing policy are perhaps of more vital importance than at any previous date. I am glad to tell the House that my right hon. Friend will wind up this Debate. I have

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  no need to stress the point of the immense importance of housing policy in this, the fifth, year of the war but the Motion which I am commending to the House is so drawn as to tell those who are suffering great discomfort—and worse—at home, and those in the Forces and the Merchant Navy, that this House is alive to their needs and anxieties and that the House is insistent that all that can be done shall be done.
  Let not those who are serving in the Forces fear that we who are too old for this war forget what we learnt in the last. I, for one, as a Territorial officer, was very closely in touch in 1919 and 1920 with the men with whom I served from 1914 to the end of 1917, and the same is true of many members of the Government and Members of this House. In 1921–22 I lived in one of the worst housing areas in South London. We must do very much better this time than we did last. Moreover, as I have been twice reminded by my hon. Friend the Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell), I have given a hostage or two to fortune. Perhaps I may recall that 10 months ago I asked my right 'hon. Friend, who is now Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, whether he was satisfied that everything was, so far in train as it should be for speedy action when speedy action could be taken, but I little thought that I should to-day be attempting to answer my own question. I most genuinely welcome this Debate and such confidence as I have is derived from the fact that I know that of all social questions, and second only to the prosecution of the war with all our efficiency and vigour, this is perhaps tae question that interests the House most of all at the moment. The destruction of home life is one of the worst of all the war losses and its rebuilding must be a primary object in reconstruction. Nothing is more welcome to me that that I should be stimulated, encouraged and criticised in this field.
  During three years as Special Commissioner I saw the war-time conditions of this great city and during the last four months I have had constantly in mind how much the lack of a home must mean to those hundreds of thousands who have not been able to enjoy one during the war and who are looking forward to the day when they can begin or resume family
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  life. My main task in housing is to see that a home is available as quickly as possible after the war for every family that needs one. There are many right hon. and hon. Members of this House with long experience in housing and this is the first opportunity that has been open to me to obtain their views. May I say that in my statement last week I was seeking to acquaint the House in advance of this Debate with the broad lines of the policy which the Government have in mind for the first two years after the defeat of Germany, in order that the issues might be discussed before the submission of legislative proposals?
  Before coming to these particular points, however, I think the House will expect me to give some short account of my stewardship during these last four months. Just before my appointment my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in the House that my" Department does not, and cannot, in time of full war mobilisation, possess the facilities which are necessary for a satisfactory handling of the domestic housing problem. May I give one simple illustration of the truth of that fact? The number of men in the building industry to-day is, approximately, only 40 per cent, of the number in the industry at the outbreak of war. Not only is that so but, as in other fields, the men are, on the average, very considerably older. Thirdly, this very much reduced number is quite inevitably distributed and organised with a view to war needs and not to the social needs which are so close to all our hearts. We have to use it to meet the needs of building for war production as well as for the essential needs of civilian life and the building of new houses has become, to all intents and purposes, impossible.
  I hope to persuade the House that in these last four months we have been able, by using our limited resources as best we can, to make some contribution to the most urgent priority needs and to take the best preparatory action available to us. In all these matters I have been very closely in touch with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service, my noble Friend the Minister of Works and the Chairman of the War Damage Commission. What we have tried together to do is to concentrate available building labour on essential housing needs, on the repair of war damage—quite a lot of it in recent weeks—

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  on essential repairs to other houses, on making requisitioned houses fit for occupation, on converting and adapting requisitioned houses and on the completion of some unfinished houses. The House will remember that last July my predecessor extended the power of requisitioning, given already to local authorities, to a new field—to the field of requisitioning to meet the needs of families inadequately housed. Among that very wide class my right hon. Friend called particular attention to families including a father discharged from the Forces and to families consisting of the wife of a serving man and his children. Since November last we have been able to go a stage further with the policy of repair. I had discussions with the local authorities and on 29th January I issued a circular to them authorising them to spend up to 500 a house in this repair work—not only up to £250 a house as before. It so happened that earlier that month I had been to Manchester and to Liverpool, and there I found that the raising of the limit in this way was really the first point on the list of requests they were making to the Government, and it was most satisfactory to be able to give them that authority.
  We hope, and of course it can only be a hope, that during this year we shall really break the back of the outstanding repairs of war damage. And that is not only first aid repairs. First aid repairs have always had the highest priority, and always must. Speedy execution of first aid repairs after raids is an extraordinary encouragement not only to those who have been actually bombed out but to the whole community round them. I saw that for myself a week or two ago when I visited three Metropolitan boroughs. I made particular inquiry into the question how the cooperative arrangements between the various local authorities and between my officers and those of my noble Friend the Minister of Works and his emergency squads had worked; and from people quite unconnected with either of us I got the most encouraging reports of the flexibility of this organisation—in London at any rate, and that is the place of which I can speak from my personal knowledge, it is really most satisfactory. Scores and hundreds of men will come from one local authority to help another and I have no doubt that their aid is very valuable.
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  Now I come to a matter which was raised last summer, as I remember well, by my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton), and that is the use of labour no longer required for work on airfields. He raised the question whether that labour could not be used in the field of housing. That has occurred. The organisation, the labour and the plant used in the airfields programme is in course of being released from that work, and my Noble Friend the Minister of Works has arranged to make it available for the preparation of sites for housing.
  Earl Winterton: Since the right hon. and learned Gentleman has been good enough to refer to me, and I thank him for doing so, may I say that I very much hope that he will bear in mind the point that was put at the time that it should not only be available for public housing but for private housing in order to carry out the valuable interconnection that goes on between private enterprise and local authorities.
  Mr. Willink: I shall certainly bear that in mind and shall be saying something about it later. The work for which this organisation will be available is the construction of roads and sewers, in addition to the preparation of the actual sites for houses, and, where it is desired, electricity, water and gas services. The arrangements suggested by my Noble Friend have been discussed in my Department with representatives of local authorities, and I advised them on the 21st of last month of the action we suggested they should take in order to avail themselves of the offer of this labour and plant. The local authorities are working on this, under an elastic arrangement which involves the grouping of authorities for this special purpose, with a leader who will act for them all and enter into the contract. The sites which are to be prepared are substantial in number: and we hope they will be sufficient for somewhere between 200,000 and 300,000 houses. It is, of course, important that the sites should be properly chosen. On that point we have an established procedure under which consultations take place with the authorities responsible for planning and agriculture and we are taking as careful steps as possible to see that interference with food production, including, of course, allotments, is reduced to an absolute minimum. These two measures, the added range of

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  repairs and the preparation of sites, are both steps which might be called clearing the decks for action in the building of permanent new houses. The preparation of sites is something quite novel. Nothing of the kind was done in the last war and I believe it will be of most substantial advantage in getting a quick start.
  Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Has that work started?
  Mr. Willink: No, not yet, but we intend to use the early summer months for the purpose.
  Mr. Colegate: Have the sites been acquired? Are they in possession of the local authorities?
  Mr. Willink: I shall be dealing later in detail with the sites already in the possession of the authorities and with the further sites which I hope they will be acquiring shortly.
  I ought to say something now on the general size and scope of the whole problem as we see it. On a number of occasions there has been reference in this House to a programme of 3,000,000 to 4,000,000 houses. That figure is an estimate, an informed estimate, of the number of houses that will be needed over a period of 10 to 12 years. It is not, thank goodness, the number we need immediately the war is over. It includes the needs which we believe will accumulate during that period, and it includes the replacement over that period of a large number of houses w aid' we believe should be regarded as obsolescent, if not obsolete. But the immediate need is much less than that. We cannot give an exact figure but I think it is reasonable to put it in the neighbourhood of 1,000,000 houses. In that figure I include what we believe to be the number of homes needed for families without separate homes of their own, replacements of houses already marked for slum clearance, and houses required if statutory overcrowding—that is, overcrowding as defined 'by Statute—is to be abated.
  May I turn now in the direction of the specific proposals on which I hope shortly to introduce legislation? The first special problem is this: Subsidy is at present limited to certain special purposes—slum clearance, abatement of overcrowding and the housing of certain classes
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  of agricultural workers. Our problem after the war is going to be to see that normal families without homes of their own—and of course a very special and large category of such families will be the families of ex-Servicemen—have houses built for them; and consequently we feel that in the period immediately after the European war local authorities must be able to provide for these general needs in the same way as they were providing far slum clearance and overcrowding before the war. We therefore propose to introduce legislation to make this position.
  Mr. Logan: Will the subsidy be given irrespective of the heights of tenements as in the last Bill?
  Mr. Willink: I think my hon. Friend should wait for the It is rather a detailed point he has raised. This proposal will be for a length of time, in the first instance for some period of the nature of two years or thereabouts. That is the major question with which this proposed legislation will deal, the widening of the scope of subsidy to meet our special conditions. On all questions relating to subsidy I am advised that it has always been customary for a Minister of Health to have preliminary discussions with representatives of local authorities, not discussions which commit him, but it is a great help and the procedure is, I think, well known.
  Sir Herbert Holdsworth: Do I understand that this legislation, including subsidy, will be limited to municipalities?
  Mr. Willink: Yes. In these discussions we Shall have to try to frame the best estimate we can of the probable cost of building and the probable rents obtainable during the period to be covered by the subsidy; but I cannot help thinking that at present it will be very difficult to go so far as that and I rather think that we may all prefer, and in that word "all" I include the local authorities, to postpone legislation fixing the actual figures until a later date. I feel pretty sure that will turn out to be right. Let me return to the question of numbers. The figure of 1,000,000 to which I referred is roughly equivalent to three years' output at the height of our building activities before the war. And that output, somewhere be-

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  tween 300,000 and 350,000 houses a year, was achieved at a time when the building industry contained more than double its present strength—
  Sir H. Holdsworth: And mostly by private enterprise.
  Mr. Willink: Yes, mostly by private enterprise—and I cannot think that at the end of the European war it will be any larger than it was then. The danger is that it will be smaller. We all know from the White Paper which has been published that the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Works are going to try to work up the building industry to 1,250,000 men. That number is designed to cover the full programme of 3,000,000 to 4,000,000 houses in 10 to 12 years; but we shall not get a large increase during the period with which I am particularly dealing, the period after the end of the German war while we are still at war with Japan.
  Mr. Lipson: Is it not intended that of the 1,000,000 houses a very large number should be of the prefabricated type?
  Mr. Willink: No, Sir. I shall be coming to those later.
  Mr. Shinwell: It is not worth getting excited about.
  Mr. Willink: I stress the fact that there is no prospect of a building industry of the requisite size during the period with which I am dealing. We shall have to try to build it up, but I must put the immediate programme before the House on the basis that the building industry will have only a fraction of its proper strength and that out of that depleted strength we shall have to meet not only the claims of new house building but other new building of an essential kind. There will be, too, the claims of deferred maintenance and repair, and the House will no doubt think it right to bear in mind that maintenance and repair alone in pre-war days employed 300,000 men—something like the total we shall have available for all purposes. I should be delighted to come to the House with a larger programme of houses than that to which I referred last week, but I believe that I should be misleading the House and the country if I put forward any larger figure.
  Mr. Shinwell: Are you excluding the training of men?
  Mr. Willink: I am by no means excluding the training of men, but the training will not have reached very large proportions during the first year, or perhaps during the first two years, to which I am referring. May I remind the House of the figures I gave last week. We have looked at the position in the light of all the information that we can get and we have come to the conclusion that 100,000 built or building by the end of the first year and a further 200,000 built or building by the end of the second year is the most we can aim at. The number of houses my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State hopes to see building in Scotland is more, I am glad to say, than the proportionate figure of population; it is 50,000 out of the 300,000. Of course, if circumstances turn out better than we expect we shall review the programme. If anyone is disposed to suggest that these figures are less than the Government should be putting forward, may I ask him to recall what happened during the 28 months following the Armistice in 1918, a period when we were engaged in no major military operation? During that period of 28 months, the total number of houses built or building in England and Wales was about 100,000—as against my figure of 300,000 for a shorter period—and the figure for the first 16 months was less than 14,000.
  These figures I have given relate to houses of permanent construction. Bearing in mind the considerations I have put before the House, I feel convinced that the House will approve of the fact that the Government have, in addition, been reviewing a number of alternative ways of supplementing the supply quickly. In the first place, my Noble Friend the Minister of Works has been most actively engaged on exploratory and experimental work in a number of directions. He and his Department have been giving me much assistance. He has already started on the building of a number of demonstration houses, all of permanent construction but intended to demonstrate the use of different materials and methods and, most important, to ascertain comparative costs. When they are ready they will be available for inspection by Members of this House and by local authorities and I think the House would like a summary of what is being built. There are two pairs of brick houses, one pair with a narrower and one with a wider front. There are also two pairs of brick houses

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  on lines accepted for this purpose by Lord Dudley's Committee, one pair of an urban and one of a rural type. I think we are going to know more after this war about the distinct types of houses appropriate to different areas. Then there is a terrace of four brick houses, of which two are being planned in the matter of equipment by the electricity industry and two by the gas industry. Then there are four pairs of materials with which I myself am not familiar, one pair of foamed slag poured in situ and one of foamed slag precast, one pair of no fines concrete and one pair of expanded clay light weight concrete. There are three pairs of steel-framed houses of different types of design and with different panel in fillings and one pair of all-steel houses. All of these will be 85o superficial feet except for the two pairs built in accordance with the Dudley Committee proposals, which will be 900 feet. I should add that in Scotland the Scottish Special Housing Association are going to carry out similar experiments.
  There is one other experiment which is being made at my request, and in this I had the advantage of the advice of the sub-Committee of my Central Housing Committee presided over by my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mr. Lewis Silkin). During my work as Special Commissioner an ingenious speeding up in the production of accommodation was effected by the temporary horizontal division into two small flats of a normal two-storey house. The flats, of course, are small, but so will be many of the family units, as they are called, immediately after this war is over. Consequently, I asked the Minister of Works if he would be good enough to build a pair of houses in order to experiment with this horizontal division and to ascertain their cost Two for one will, of course, be of immense advantage if it turns out to be an economical proposition. I am told that the first of these experimental houses will be furnished and available for inspection next month and their eventual fate will be that they will be offered to the local authority for occupation in the ordinary way.
  I now pass to the second field of experiment. The Minister of Works is converting an industrial hostel into temporary houses to show what can be done there. I feel sure that nothing would be more irritating than for people to see accom-
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  modation of this kind and feel there had not been proper experiment or research into the way in which it could best be used after the war, and I understand that the experimental work of conversion is likely to be finished within the next few weeks. I shall look forward to seeing it and will arrange for any who are interested also to see it. The hostel accommodation provided for war purposes which may be available for housing after the war may ultimately give us accommodation for some 24,000 families, and if the experiment comes out well and if the conversion is satisfactory and economical that will be a very useful contribution.
  Thirdly, and at my request again, my noble Friend the Minister of Works, cooperating with a number of local authorities, is carrying out experiments in the conversion of large houses of varying types into flats. Large houses, very often, are not of much use as they stand, but it may well be that they, too, will be able to make a useful contribution. These are not the only experiments going on in this field. Other local authorities are making similar experiments on their own.
  Now I come to a question in which I know that the House and the public take a very great interest, the question of the possible use of a temporary prefabricated house. I think that if hon. Members accept for consideration the facts which I have already put before them, they will form the same view as I have and as the Government have as a whole, that anything we can do by way of permanent construction or by way of conversion which can adequately meet our needs during the period to which I am referring should be done. The essential point is, however, that we are doing everything we possibly can to shorten the period of waiting for those in urgent need of homes of their own and I believe that many newly married young people would choose the privacy of a temporary house rather than to go on living with other people, even their "in-laws." So we have been considering what can be done in this way, using methods which will not involve substantial interference with the supply of houses of permanent construction. It would be no good doing that. The investigation has been on the lines of inquiring in what way our present productive capacity in the war factories can be switched over to meet our housing

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  needs. One has to consider the suitability of the temporary house, the speed of production, the cost, the materials available and production capacity. The houses so produced will, essentially, be intended for use for a limited number of years and will be publicly owned and licensed for a period. There must he no more of temporary houses going on for 25 years, but we believe that there is a real possibility that a most substantial contribution can be made in this field until such time as permanent houses and flats can be provided in adequate numbers.
  Mr. Shinwell: Can the Minister say whether his Department has formed any estimate of the number of temporary houses they can provide during the first three years and whether, if they have, this number is included in the 300,000?
  Mr. Willink: On the first point I think it would be quite wrong, before one has the prototype complete and at a time when the switch-over of the factories is bound to be uncertain, to state any figure of that kind. On the second point, I thought I had made it clear that none of these prefabricated houses is included in the 300,000. Lord Portal's prototype will, we believe, be ready by April.
  Mr. MacLaren: Did the Minister say the Portal prototype?
  Mr. Willink: Yes, I said Lord Portal's prototype. When it is finished we intend that it should be made available for inspection by Members of the House, by local authorities and by the general public who were deeply concerned in this project and I am sure that there will be an opportunity for discussion of the matter in Parliament. I am in the fortunate position that the Sub-Committee under the hon. Member for Peckham is in being and is able to advise me on matters relating to temporary construction. I am sure that all of us should preserve an open mind until we have seen the result of the experiments. In another important field, not actually in the construction of houses, I should like to say that the Ministry of Works has, with the various industries and after consulting other Ministries, carried the standardisation of materials, fittings and equipment quite a long way. This will be of very considerable importance from the point of view of saving costs.
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  Now may I return to the question of sites? Sites are equally important, of course, for both permanent and temporary houses. I have already referred to the advance preparation of sites and we must make sure that we have enough land. I think the House should know what the position is. There are 300,000 houses in the programme and the general situation as regards the land for those house is not unsatisfactory. Local authorities already possess 16,000 acres, which is roughly enough for nearly 200,000 houses. Their proposals are to buy a further 14,000 acres, which would be enough land, approximately, for another 150,000 houses. An embargo was placed on the purchase of land at the beginning of the war. Now it is time that local authorities should be enabled to acquire land needed for their immediate housing needs and on the 8th of this month I issued a circular to local authorities asking them to take the necessary steps. I am of opinion that, taking into account the land in their possession and in process of being acquired, we should not be held up by the question of land purchase for this limited programme. But there is one other matter. We must not have any obstacles we can avoid in any individual case at the outset of the programme. We want to get a flying start and I am therefore going to propose that I should be authorised, as the Minister was authorised for two years after the last war, to confirm compulsory purchase orders without a public inquiry. It is a power which was given before and I want to make it clear that such a power would not affect, in any way, the compensation to be paid.
  I know there is anxiety about this question of price. It may be that in the large cities a part of the programme will be carried out by building on sites which have been acquired as a result of slum clearance action taken before the war, but the great bulk of the land required for the short-term programme will be undeveloped land, for one very good reason among others that it is on land of that kind that houses can be built most quickly. In my opinion it is unlikely that in these two years it will be possible or right to proceed on any substantial scale with the clearance of further areas involving the destruction of further houses. We shall not be able to spare existing houses. It is true that in a longterm housing programme there must be

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  clearance and reconstruction of these areas and the legislative basis for the acquisition of land for this purpose will be dealt with as part of the Government's proposals for the acquisition of land for public purposes. But housing, important as it is, is only one of the public purposes for which local authorities require and have power to acquire land.
  Earl Winterton: It is no use telling us that it will be dealt with when we come to deal with these matters. Of course, it will have to be dealt with. What the country wants to know is when my right hon. and learned Friend is going to make an announcement on it.
  Mr. Willink: My Noble Friend will hardly expect me to make an announcement of general policy on this matter. I have limited all my remarks to the consideration of the period of two years after the end of the European war, during which I was saying I did not anticipate difficulty arising on this point.
  Sir H. Holdsworth: The right hon. and learned Gentleman talks about this temporary programme but you have to make arrangements for years ahead. We want to know what the Government have in mind for a long-term policy?
  Mr. Willink: That is exactly what I was coming to. As regards the detailed application of what is known as the 1939 ceiling, the principle accepted by the Government is that compensation in respect of the public acquisition of land will not exceed sums based on the standard of pre-war values. To determine the best method by which the prinicple can be translated into legislative proposals has been an extremely complex task, as hon. Members who are acquainted at first hand with the subject will readily believe, but I am glad to be able to tell the House that the matter has reached the stage when my right hon. Friend the Minister of Town and Country Planning is at the present time engaged in drafting specific proposals. The legislation which it is proposed to introduce is intended to put the planning authority in a position forthwith to purchase and plan the whole of the land in reconstruction areas, together with any land required for the resulting over-spill of population, and to apply not only to the purchase of land required in connection with the replanning
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  of reconstruction areas but to determine the maximum amount payable for land required by public authorities for any public purpose. As the Bill will have to be considered against the wider background of the Government's general proposals about the future legislative basis of town and country planning, the Government will make the introduction of the Bill the occasion for a comprehensive statement of their policy in this field.
  These issues go much wider than the question of the acquisition of the additional land required for the short-term housing programme with which I am dealing to-day. So far as such additional purchases are necessary it is essential to take immediate action and for that action we must rely, for the moment, on the powers which local authorities already possess, supplemented by the steps for expediting temporarily the procedure of land acquisition to which I have referred. I have little doubt that it will be possible to acquire such land on terms which will not conflict with long-term Government policy. As with the preparation of sites, there will be full consultation with the authorities responsible for planning and for agriculture.
  Mr. Silverman: How can the right hon. Gentleman say that land for this extremely limited and inadequate purpose can be acquired on terms which are not in conflict with the Government's long-term policy if he does not know what the Government's longterm policy is to be?
  Mr. Willink: What I meant by that was that I believe this limited amount of land can be acquired without infringement of the principle of the 1939 ceiling and in view of the fact that the great majority of the sites have already been acquired and have been selected in accordance with the best planning practice I think that principle, too, will not be interfered with.
  Mr. Silverman: Then the long-term policy is the 1939 policy.
  Mr. Willink: No, Sir. Before house building can begin we also have to settle the kind of houses to be built, the general standards of accommodation and the equipment to be put into them; and I hope in the course of this summer, after consultation with my colleagues, to issue a manual for the guidance of local authorities—not to fetter their originality

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  but to stimulate them (Interruption.) I have seen much local authority housing, showing great originality and very great taste. We want to get the best brains we can and I am sorry that more architects have not in the past devoted attention to the problems- of cottage building which would provide many opportunities for the exercise of their professional skill.
  I should like, in connection with this manual, to tell the House about the work that has been done by various Committees. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster two years ago asked his Central Housing Advisory Committee to consider 'the question of design and I have now received the report of Lord Dudley's Sub-Committee. There were a number of women on the Sub-Committee and they took evidence from a large number of women's organisations. I have, as I said, received their report and I intend to publish it. In the course of the visits to Liverpool and Manchester I have mentioned and by visiting ten or 12 of the best and most recent London County Council properties, I have been endeavouring to inform myself on the question of standards. Nor have I failed to visit specimens of the war-time rural cottages.
  In addition I have recently received a very valuable report on rural housing from a sub-Committee under the Chairmanship of Sir Arthur Hobhouse. I am proposing also to publish that.
  I have described the limitations in the field of labour and I have hinted at the limitations in the field of materials. Success in our housing effort must depend on the financial effect of the operations on the Exchequer, the rates and the tenants of the houses. In 1920 houses were costing local authorities £1,000 each and between April, 1920, and March, 1921, fewer than 16,000 were built. From 1922 until the outbreak of the war houses built by local authorities averaged between £400 and £500 and the total output of local authorities and private enterprise for a number of years before 1939 averaged over 300,000 a year. As we know from the agricultural cottages built in the last few months, costs are on the 1920 level. If we are to be successful in our housing efforts the cost of building and the rents of the houses must be brought into relation with the general price level.
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  I cannot say more at the moment with regard to rents. It is a controversial question but a fundamental one. It is being considered by a Committee under the Chairmanship of Lord Ridley at the present time. Incidentally the Committee is considering the question of rents for furnished lettings, on which there is considerable anxiety. I get returns from local authorities with regard to this matter at nine-monthly intervals. Between July, 1941, and September, 1943, there were nearly 1,100 complaints of excessive rents and these complaints were investigated. In nearly 400 cases reductions in rent were secured and out of 94 prosecutions 63 were successful. At the moment local authorities concerned are specially investigating complaints that excessive rents are being extracted in this City in particular from Members of the Forces of our American Allies. Where these complaints turn out to be well-founded, local authorities will prosecute unless the rents are reduced.
  We shall look to many agencies to assist us in our great problem, not only to local authorities but to private enterprise, housing associations, building societies. There is a sub-committee under Sir Felix Pole considering private enterprise, and I hope to have their report soon. I understand that the building societies, two of whose leading representatives, Sir Harold Bellman and Mr. David Smith, are members of my own advisory committee, are considering what contribution they can make to the special problem of the provision of houses for letting.
  Mr. Silkin: How many of the 300,000 houses to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred does he estimate will be provided by private enterprise, and how many by local authorities?
  Mr. Willink: I anticipate that the vast majority will necessarily be provided by local authorities in the extraordinary difficulties of the two years we are considering.
  Captain Duncan: Is not private enterprise, which did an enormous amount of work before the war, to have a hand in this great task?
  Mr. Willink: I cannot go further at the moment. I am awaiting the report of Sir Felix Pole's committee, and it would be wrong for me to say more at the moment. I am, however, fully alive to the con-

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  tribution which private enterprise must make in this field.
  I have tried to cover the ground fairly and fully and to give the House the fullest possible information. It is not only my Department that is concerned. It is one of those questions which the Prime Minister described as of primary importance—food, work and homes. With the other Ministers concerned I can truly say that I am working as a member of a team, with my Noble Friend the Minister of Reconstruction to tell us whether the team is working properly and to help us achieve our goal. Each of us has his part to play, and we shall play our several parts as one team with the single object of providing as many homes as possible for those who need them at the earliest possible date.
  Mr. Greenwood: My heart goes out in sympathy to my right hon. and learned Friend. He struck me as a brave man struggling with adversity. The picture he has painted is a very bleak one, not only for the House but for a very large number of people in the country. I am not so sure that we really ought to have had this Debate At all to-day. I think that the House has been led up the garden. I think it is being very badly treated. The real reason is that the Government have not made up their mind upon the major issue. It is really absurd for us to be fiddling about with 300, 000 houses when the conditions governing the building and the disposition of houses in future are still undecided. One does not want to mention the names Uthwatt, Scott and Barlow—[An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] They sear the souls of right hon. Gentlemen on the other side. Suppose we get the 300,000 permanent houses in the first two years after the end of hostilities in Europe; that will not be the end of the story. We shall want schools, shops, maternity centres, local health centres, churches and transport. That represents a pretty big programme of building. We all agree that we want 300,000 houses, but where are they to be put? The right hon. Gentleman says that a large number of authorities have got the land, that others can get land, and so on, but who knows yet where the major roads are going through this country? Who knows whether or not the Ministry of War Transport will not determine that a road
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  shall go bang across a site which is intended for housing and has been so approved by the Minister of Health. One does not know and—
  Earl Winterton: On a point of Order. My right hon. Friend the leader of the Labour Party has been referring to matters which come very pertinently within the purview of the Minister of Town and Country Planning. The right hon. Gentleman has left the Front Bench. Are we not entitled to ask Ministers whose Departments are under review to be present?
  Hon. Members: He has come back.
  Mr. Greenwood: May I say to my right hon. Friend, "Welcome, little stranger"? It is, I think, perfectly clear that if we are to handle this problem in the way it should be handled, we cannot chew off a piece and call it a two-year programme. The two-year programme, inevitably and quite rightly, must merge into the general programme of the rehousing of the people. We cannot handle even the two-year programme on a basis of emergency measures. Until the Government make up their mind about Uthwatt, about Scott and about Barlow, we are simply beating the air in these discussions.
  What is wrong? I am tremendously impressed by the difficulties of the situation. The Government are overwhelmed by the difficulties of these problems, as I can very well understand. But why this enormously long delay in making up their mind? Is it because of the Prime Minister's dislike in war time of controversial discussions and legislation? At the end of Questions, Members of the House were invited to "wait and see." The late Lord Oxford made good use of that phrase. "Wait and see" on occasions is sound statesmanship, but there are occasions when, if you wait very much longer, you do not see at all. This is the situation in which we are now. I would rather have a bad decision than no decision at all. You can improve things afterwards, but the Government have dithered for over two years on this issue and it is beginning to exhaust the patience of many of us who have tried loyally to support His Majesty's Government. I hoped it would have been possible in this Debate to have a declaration of policy. My right hon. and learned Friend has some extraordinary side-stepping to do, which, as a distinguished lawyer, he is

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  able to do better than a poor dumb fellow like me could have done.
  This discussion to-day really ought to have been a discussion on the principles of the major policy to be adopted. I hope that the House will express itself emphatically, more emphatically than I am able to do, on the importance of the Government making up their mind. It is quite clear that they have not made up their mind. If they had they would have come down to the House, thrown their chests out, and said, "Here we are, these mighty decisions have been taken." They obviously have not reached decisions and we must ask the Government really to sit down, thresh the thing out, and come to some kind of set of principles which will govern the building of houses in the future. My right hon. and learned Friend referred to team work. There seems to be somebody off-side. Whether it is the skipper of the team, or the board of management of the club, I do not know, but it is obvious that there are rifts in the lute. I hope that that situation may very quickly be modified and remedied. We are proceeding by slow stages. My right hon. and learned Friend made a statement last Thursday; we are having a discussion to-day; and then at some time we are to have some legislation. That is three bites at one cherry. I do not mind two, but I think that this procedure is getting a little too involved. We do not know when this legislation will come. We do not know when the other vital legislation will come, and many of us are getting into the frame of mind expressed by the children's game, "This year, next year, some time, never." Unless we face up to these problems now, woe betide the country when the time for building arrives.
  On housing itself, the blitz presents a special problem. It is not a problem the cost of which should fall on the local authorities whose areas have been shattered. It is as much a war charge as any other kind of damage sustained in war time. It is an urgent problem, and the anxiety of the chief magistrates of blitzed towns and cities has been shown in a recent letter to "The Times" —not the first letter on the subject. These people are not without a certain measure of right on their side. One Dopes, therefore, that the blitz problem will be dealt with expeditiously. It ought to be used as a
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  magnificent opportunity for the replanning of many of those towns. Secondly, there is the time lag in building, now getting on for nearly five years. That represents a considerable accumulation of arrears. There is a real shortage which must be made up at the earliest possible opportunity. Then there is the larger problem. I would not accept the figure of 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 houses needed in this country. The number depends on the standard. If the standard is low, we would not need 300,000, let alone 3,000,000 or 4,000,000. I would say that on any reasonable standard England and Wales need alone 5,500,000 new houses. The North of England has still many semi-slums built three-quarters of a century ago when there were not any housing standards, and that problem has to be taken in our sweep.
  Difficulties there will be about labour and material. On the other hand do not let us forget that new materials are being made available now for all kinds of purposes. One of the most important developments that will grow out of the war in the industrial field is that of plastics, which can be used for a thousand different purposes. Therefore, while there may be shortages of certain materials and of labour, it is undoubtedly true that there are new opportunities opening for us.
  As to prefabrication, I agree with my right hon. Friend that it is an ugly word, and one that has several meanings. It opens the door, however, to a much swifter action than was possible before. The attempts at prefabrication at the end of the last war were, on the whole, a gloomy failure, but that need not be so now. The prefabrication of internal fittings could go a very long way towards reducing housing costs, with which the right hon. Gentleman is concerned. That does not necessarily mean that the inside of every house should look alike. As to the outside, I would be more cautious, in the absence of experience, before expressing a final opinion on the prefabrication of the shell of the house. If we have to put up temporary buildings, the whole of them may have to be prefabricated, but I would take a very conservative view of the life of those buildings. I would not like to think that they are to last too long. One point about prefabrication of internal fittings in the new houses, even the temporary ones, is that, when the time of the licence has

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  elapsed, all the internal fittings can be used in the new, permanent houses. There are ways and means of pushing the work on ahead.
  I am a little disturbed about this figure of 850 superficial feet for the experimental houses. Is that to be the new standard for the future? It ought not to be. We have to think about the standardisation of housing and to remember that when we put up more or less permanent houses, they may be there for three generations. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of houses in this country, which have lasted four or five generations, and therefore we ought to have regard to proper standards both as regards size and accommodation, and also equipment inside the houses in orde:7 to enable the housewife to live as a housewife and not as a drudge. These things can be done, and it is important that they should be done. It has been said that the body is the temple of the human spirit; the home is certainly the temple of our national life. The homes in which our people live ought to be among the greatest glories of our land.
  I have a fear that the Minister may be skimping the style by building houses too small, in his anxiety to save expenditure and also to put up experimental houses which seem a little shoddy. That is a mistaken policy. There are ways and means of reducing housing costs and of avoiding the extravagances of the building industry and of those who are concerned in the ancillary trades. We really ought to take a long view of this matter and not a short view, and certainly not only a 10-year view. The long view must be a standard of housing in this country worthy of people who have stood the stresses and strains and sacrifices of the war. Nothing we can do for the masses of our people in seeing that they live a decent, civilised and dignified home life, would be too much for so great a people.
  Mr. Molson: I should like to associate myself with the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman opposite and to express some sympathy with the Minister of Health that, on this first occasion that he appears before us as Minister of Housing, he has not anything better to put forward than he has been authorised to put by his colleagues. The House and the country have been awaiting
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  with increasing impatience some statement about housing, which is one of the biggest undertakings before the Government at the present time. The Government have to provide houses, not only for the increased number of married people, but to reconstruct the devastated areas according to a national plan. Here, on the first occasion when the Government come forward with a statement on this matter, it is obviously upon a most inadequate basis.
  The history of this matter goes back to February, 1941, when Lord Reith said that he was authorised by his colleagues of the Government to say "that the principle of planning would be accepted as national policy, and that some central planning authority would be required." The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. A. Greenwood) was in the Government at that time, and we are indebted, no doubt, largely to him for the decision of the Cabinet that a national planning policy was going to be adopted. It was on 17th July, 1941, that the attitude of the Government upon the interim Uthwatt Report was announced, and that the Minister then concerned said:
  "There are four main points in both the interim Report and the Government statement. The first is a standard of maximum values; the second a definition and appropriate special treatment, of reconstruction areas; the third, a general strengthening of planning control to safeguard the future, while plans for the full post-war planning system are being worked out; the fourth, a central planning authority "
  It may be claimed on behalf of the Government that, in the course of the last 2½ years, they have given effect to the third and fourth recommendations. I see on the Government Front Bench the Minister of Town and Country Planning. I suppose his presence there is an indication that the recommendations for a central planning authority have been put into effect. There was also the Interim Development Act, 1943, which could be said to have strengthened the planning control to safeguard the future, but, as regards the other two recommendations which were accepted by the Government in July, 1941, nothing has been done.
  In the King's Speech, we were given certain further promises. We were promised legislation dealing with the acquisition of land, and we were told:
  "You will be invited to pass legislation conferring special powers for the re-development of areas, which, by reason of enemy action,

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  overcrowding or otherwise, need to be re-planned as a whole."
  That was in November. The Minister comes to this House in the month of March in order, in a modest way, to begin his housing programme, but no legislation has yet appeared. The King's Speech went on to say:
  "My Government will lay before you the results of their examination of the reports which have been made, recommending the resumption of further powers to control and direct the use of the land of Great Britain."
  Of that there is still no sign, no sign whatsoever.
  In December, the Minister without Portfolio made a very plain and straightforward statement. It was a downright statement no doubt, because it repeated what had been said by Lord Reith two and a half years before. I have sometimes criticised the Minister without Portfolio because his statements are sometimes not as clear and precise as one might have wished, but, greatly venturing, he did repeat, in uncompromising terms, the statement that had been made by Lord Reith two and a half years before. What he said on 7th December was:
  "We will confer far wider powers to purchase the areas needing reconstruction, or which have become obsolete or out-of-date, to purchase them and deal with them as a whole. Finally, we have accepted the 1939 ceiling.''—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th December, 1943; col. 909, Vol. 395.]
  He was not the only Minister who, during the Debate on the King's Speech, was willing to take a great step forward. There was also the Minister of Production. He, weighed in too, and he was able to announce something else that had been recommended by the Uthwatt Committee, and which the Government had accepted. He said that the report proposed a number of easements. I am not sure that his choice of words was quite correct, but he said "easements,"
  "—in the procedure designed to make the purchase by local authorities of areas for reconstruction more speedy than it is to-day.… In the main, the Government accept the Uthwatt Report upon this procedure."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th November, 1943; col. 317, Vol. 393.]
  If the Government had by now fulfilled their promises, this House would be considering legislation, first, to enable local authorities to acquire, second, by a speedier and simpler procedure than now applies, and third, at prices not exceeding
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  those of March, 1939, the whole of any area which needs to be developed as a whole.
  Against those promises made by responsible Members of His Majesty's Government, I contrast the statement which the Minister of Health made last week. He is not proposing to simplify the procedure except by ending the preliminary inquiry. He is not proposing that the price to be paid for the acquisition of this land shall necessarily be that of 1939. He is proposing, as I understand it, that they shall pay the current prices obtaining in 1944. He only proposes that the land to be acquired by the local authorities is that which is to be required for the building of houses in the first two years. In case there is any doubt as to whether I am rightly interpreting my right hon. Friend's policy I proceed to quote from the circular which has been sent out to the local authorities. It says:
  "It is not the intention at the present time to sanction the purchase of the large areas of land required for a long term housing programme. These suggested purchases must be deferred pending decisions on the major questions of planning which are still under consideration. Local authorities will, however, now be able, without prejudice to these considerations, to acquire as much land as is required for proposals which they are likely to be able to put in hand for meeting urgent needs in the two years after the war."
  Lieut.-Commander Joynson-Hicks: May I ask the hon. Member the date of the circular from which he is quoting?
  Mr. Molson: The circular, which is over the signature of Mr. Hearder, Assistant Secretary, Ministry of Health, is 8th March, 1944 So I contrast the promises, I will not say the extravagant promises, I say the reasonable promises, that were made even as late as the end of last year with the performance of His Majesty's Government in this spring. Is it any wonder that we find a letter of protest in "The Times" signed by Lord Astor and a number of other Lord Mayors and Mayors? How is it possible under procedure of this kind for the local authorities to prepare any really adequate schemes for the rebuilding of towns under a circular of this kind, so narrow in scope and so myopic in vision?
  Mr. Silverman: Does not the circular go further than

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  that? Is it not a direct prohibition on the local authorities from making longterm plans?
  Mr. Molson: Yes, it is. It relaxes the previous restriction, which was to one year, to two years. Therefore by implication it does what the hon. Gentleman opposite says it does; it prevents them from undertaking these larger schemes. It says that they are not to undertake the larger projects, although at the same time it tells them they must bear in mind that what they do now is not to get into the way of what they may be allowed to do when the Government's long-term policy is announced.
  What is the immediate effect of this going to be? It is not going to be purely negative, it is going to be positively harmful. I was interested when the Minister of Health actually stated in his speech that he anticipated that the result would be exactly what I had anticipated it would be. He said what they would be doing would be acquiring undeveloped land instead of the developed land that had been blitzed in the towns and land which is occupied or, overcrowded by slums. What is the effect of this likely to be? Because the promise still apparently stands that ultimately local authorities will be authorised to acquire land at 1939 levels, although the legislation has not been passed or even introduced, the far-sighted local authorities, presumably, will not be anxious to begin buying land now if later they are likely to be able to buy it at a lower level. Therefore they would only tend to acquire undeveloped land outside. There are, I believe, a number of local authorities whose vision I may say is broader than that of His Majesty's Government at the present time, who are beginning to plan the great redevelopment of the whole of their devastated areas. They will be very reluctant to acquire in the middle of their built up areas those comparatively small areas which alone are permitted to be bought under the right hon. Gentleman's Circular, which is what will be required for housing in the next two years. They may very well take the view, when they have great and ambitious schemes for the re-development of their towns, that they are not going to spoil the prospect of them in order to use part of that area for this short two years' term of housing.
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  How many of us during the last few years, in London or elsewhere, when we have looked back upon the old built-up areas with all their squalor and their congestion and their darkness, have thought that out of all the sorrow and the suffering and the sacrifices of this war something good might come, that in the place of that we might have something noble and spacious and bright. The reason I speak with perhaps some slight asperity to-day is because it seems to me that this piecemeal way of approaching the problem will defeat and disappoint the expectations we have all had. My right hon. Friend confirmed my impression that the result of his policy and his Circular is likely to be that all these authorities will tend to acquire undeveloped land. That means to say that there will be a continuation of the sprawling development of our conurbations out into the sadly diminished agricultural land which we still have in this country, and that is the very negation of all planning. What does my right hon. Friend the Minister of Town and Country Planning say about a policy of this kind?
  Good planning is something which will use land in the general interests of the nation and all sections of the nation, and this unconsidered and unregulated and unplanned spread of our built-up areas out into the green belts, such as they are, round the towns, is not in the interests of agriculture. Far too much of our agricultural land has been taken and not taken for any good purpose either, but just wantonly destroyed—in saying "wantonly" I used the wrong word—but through lack of thought and lack of consideration, and in order to obtain a speculative advantage. What about the amenities? What about the real interests of the dispersed worker whose house is to be put out in the country far from the place where he works, and of the effect upon him of the long journeys up into the town, the effect of lengthening the hours he is absent from home, the additional cost of transport getting to and from his work? What about the economic aspect from the point of view of the town services, the sewers, lighting, roads and so on which will have to be developed? This Circular which is being issued, is a complete and absolute negation of everything in the way of town and country planning.
  I must say quite frankly that far worse than this is what I believe this policy, this

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  statement by the Minister of Health today. really portends. My right hon. Friend would not have wished to inaugurate his career as a Minister of Housing with anything of this kind if he could have got something better. He has found himself unable to get anything better, and I wonder what the explanation is? There was one explanation given in the "Observer" newspaper last Sunday, a newspaper which is ordinarily very accurate and very reliable. It indicated that the Government had first of all turned down the Uthwatt proposals and then had turned down certain alternative proposals which had been worked out by the Ministry of Town and County Planning during the last few months. What the "Observer" said was that what my right hon. Friend had worked out was an alternative proposal
  "that land-owners applying for permission to develop their land should pay to a central fund a levy taking account of the difference between the value of the land for its use at the time of the application and its developed value; and that out of that fund land-owners who were refused permission to develop should be compensated."
  That is a very interesting statement. I should like to put one or two perfectly plain questions to the Government, and I hope that before this Debate concludes we shall have an equally plain answer. Were proposals of this kind put forward by my right hon. Friend and have they been turned down? I must say that these proposals appeal to me very much. They bear a certain resemblance to certain proposals for which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Stafford (Major Thorneycroft) and I made ourselves responsible, which we circulated to some of our friends last week, and which have met with a substantial measure of support.
  Mr. MacLaren: Were the hon. Members' proposals put up as an invention of their own or did they derive them from a Government Department?
  Mr. Molson: The answer to that is that this is a matter to which my hon. and gallant Friend and I have been giving long and anxious consideration for a considerable period of time, and I have discussed these matters with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Town and Country Planning. I can assure hon. Members that he confined himself to saying what were his difficulties in accepting the Uthwatt proposals. I have never had
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  from him or from the Parliamentary Secretary the slightest indication at any time as to what their own constructive proposals were.
  Mr. MacLaren: Again, I persist in asking the question. I am not saying that the hon. Member got them from the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary. I ask him, as an hon. Member of the House, did he and his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Stafford (Major Thorneycroft) devise this scheme as their own original conception, or did they get it by way of inspiration from a Government Department?
  Mr. Molson: My hon. and gallant Friend and I have discussed this matter with many people who are interested in it. I have discussed it with Members of the Opposition, I have discussed it with Members of the Government, in the general way that Members of this House do; and we put forward certain proposals, which we thought might be regarded as reasonable and constructive proposals which might commend themselves to reasonable and moderate men in all parts of this House.
  Mr. MacLaren: The hon. Member refuses to answer the question.
  Mr. Molson: No, I have given way twice, and I have given a perfectly plain and truthful answer.
  Mr. MacLaren: I charge the hon. Member with plagiarism.
  Mr. Molson: The hon. Member gravely under-estimates the fertile imagination and constructive quality of the minds of my hon. and gallant Friend and myself. "The Times" to-day had a very remarkable article upon the whole of this matter. It said:
  "There is ground for believing that the core"—
  I think it must have meant "cause," if "The Times" newspaper ever does make a misprint—
  "of the delay"—
  which they have severely criticized—
  "is the difficulty of reaching an agreed decision on the compensation and betterment proposals of the Uthwatt Committee. These proposals involve fundamental changes in land ownership. They affect powerful and well-organised interests, and are of correspondingly great significance from the standpoint of public concern."

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  I should like to ask the Government, is it indeed the case that land-owning interests have defeated the proposals that were put forward by the Ministry of Town and Country Planning? If so, I would like to remind them of the promise that was made by them as recently as 8th December last, through the Minister of Reconstruction, when he said:
  "The proper development of the land shall not be prevented or delayed either by motives of personal gain or other selfish reasons."
  My hon. Friends and I believe in private ownership of land so long as the private owner regards his ownership as being in the nature of a trust for the public. It was Mr. Asquith, I think, who said that Free Trade could not be expected to carry the old man of the sea—dumping—on its back. We take the view that private ownership cannot be expected to carry on its back the old man of the sea of unearned increment resulting from the efforts of the general public.
  I am, I must say, frankly alarmed at the course of events. I regard the Minister of Town and Country Planning as being a good man facing obstructive and obscurantist colleagues. My only criticism of him is that I am not quite sure that he is a Minister of the resigning sort. I would say to him that I think there is no better stimulant to a declining political reputation than a well-timed resignation on a popular issue. I would like to see him come out and say, "I have resigned from the Government because my infant Ministry was hampered by the older-established Departments, in much the same way as in the earlier stages the so-called Ministry for the Co-ordination of Defence was hampered and handicapped by the old-established Departments, and my colleagues and the landlords were too strong for me, and rejected the proposals that I put forward."
  I confess that the Minister of Health is also a little disappointing to me. It is not so long since he left the back benches. In those days there was a certain community of outlook between him and my hon. Friends with whom I work. On 26th January, 1943, he made a very vigorous and constructive speech on the Second Reading of the Bill which 'brought the Ministry of Town and Country Planning into existence. He was a little anxious lest it should only set up a machinery, and should not achieve any concrete results.
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  He asked the Minister without Portfolio whether the new Minister's powers were.
  "intended to imply that purposeful, positive action which appears to most of us to be essential in this matter of town and country planning, or do they connote the continuance of a governmental policy which is merely regulating and restrictive."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th January, 1943; col. 436, Vol. 386.]
  My right hon. Friend went on:
  "The whole of this structure depends upon one essential condition—the framing of a national policy. One must emphasise that the time is overdue for a clearer pronouncement about the plans it has been decided to make, and on many of the main matters which must be decided in relation to such plans."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th January, 5943; cols. 436–7, Vol. 386.]
  If it was overdue on 26th January, 1943, it is still more overdue now; and he has now some measure of responsibility if that has not been done. I do not see the Minister without Portfolio on the Treasury Bench. I have criticised him in the past, and I think he might be described also as being not of the resigning sort. I should be insincere if I said that I was surprised to find that he has acquiesced in what is now happening. It was on 7th December, 1943, that he made the explicit statement which I have just quoted, that the 1939 ceilings had been accepted. On 8th March, 1944, the Minister of Health makes his statement, which in the words of "The Times" leader to-day
  "studiously ignored the 1939 ceiling, and seemed to contemplate the acquisition of land for housing at current prices."
  If these three right hon. Gentlemen cannot assert themselves, I feel inclined to make an appeal to somebody of greater authority than they, the noble Lord who was appointed to the War Cabinet in order to ensure that reconstruction was really undertaken. He is pledged more explicitly than any of them. It was on 10th December, 1943, that he made a statement on behalf of the Government. He said:
  "I agree that this is a matter of great urgency, and that until it is settled it will not be possible to proceed to specific development proposals…We will make a White Paper available that will give the full intentions of the Government on this matter immediately after Christmas…"
  I do not know what the word "immediately" means. He went on:
  "… legislation will follow the White Paper… The White Paper will cover the question of compensation and betterment in its widest sense, and will provide the back-

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  ground against which Parliament can consider the Bill when it is presented."
  If the Government intended carrying out these pledges, which have been given so frequently, by so many different Ministers, I think they would have had no difficulty in accepting the Amendment which I should have liked to move had the Speaker been willing to accept it. We should have liked an opportunity of dividing upon this issue, because that would have been—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Charles Williams): As the hon. Gentleman has not got the opportunity of moving it, he cannot discuss it. It is out of Order.
  Mr. Monson: I was only going to say that that would have enabled us to emphasise the point which I wished to make, that there is no hope for the Government of safety in adopting a timid policy, and certainly they are not likely to maintain the unity of the Conservative Party through adopting an attitude of subservience to speculative landed interests.
  Mr. MacLaren: Since the outbreak of war, I have tried to put myself in the position—I give this personal explanation—that I would not intervene in Debates if I could possibly avoid it. But the Debate to-day comes on the question of reconstruction, or, at least, it involves that; therefore, one must intervene. I have listened to this Debate so far, and what have I heard? Very much the old game that has gone on in this House for years, of one man quoting another man and telling him to resign because he said something on such-and-such a date. I notice that it is the young ambitious men who are telling the old ones to get out of the way. Does this really take us towards a solution of this problem? That is the issue. The country outside is waiting for solutions to problems, and surely it is the function of this House to solve economic problems.
  Never was the need for the solution of problems more pressing than to-day. This h not the time merely to go on playing the old Oxford and Cambridge debating society game across the Table. Things are too serious. We want to know what is the cause of these problems and how to resolve them. Now, we are faced with this question of how are we going to rehouse the people, not merely after the war,
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  but even before the war terminates. Last week, or the week before, we had a discussion on the Education Bill, and we see that millions are to be spent on new education. Ideal schools have to be built; the greatest care is to be taken to foster the growing mind and the development of public education, but there is not a Member of this House who will not agree with this—that you may have the most expensive educational system in the world, and yet it can be nullified or destroyed by the influence of the home. If our homes be defiled by poverty or slumdom, all our education is nullified. I should have thought that housing would have taken precedence over education. We have been dealing with education, and here we are now dealing with the things which, in my opinion, are clamant—the housing of the people. After all, it has been said here that the house is the temple of the family. It is the tabernacle of the family, for what your house is, will determine your nation. It is the house that inspires the mind of the child. It is the reflection of the circumstances of the house that finally determines the mind—and what are the housing conditions of this country, and how has this House behaved in tackling this problem?
  From the old Public Acts of 1848, and the two subsequent Acts—the Shaftesbury Acts—right down to the last Housing Act of 1936, this legislation has been a farrago of nonsense that has solved nothing, and the procedure that has been adopted today will solve nothing. It is most appropriate that the Minister, standing in the most pathetic position in which I have ever seen a Minister in this House, should have remembered the word "subsidy." Yet you cannot cure the housing problem by subsidies. What is the cause of bad housing? It has three causes. The first is low wages, the second is the rating system, which penalises you if you build your house, or improve it, and the third is land speculation. These are the three causes, and I want, in all seriousness, to put them forward and to impress them, not merely upon this House, but, by using this House as a sounding-board, upon the people in the country who are wondering what is the cause of bad housing. I ask any hon. Member in this House, irrespective of party: Does subsidising housing attack any one of these fundamental causes? What have we done? We have been shovelling out millions in subsidising

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  houses. Does a subsidy increase the wages of a man who wants a better house? Does a subsidy for housing remove the unemployed man who competes against the man who cannot get higher wages because of his unemployed competitor? Does subsidising housing remove land speculation, which confines people into these dens called cities and prevents them getting into better planned cities? I will tell hon. Members what it does. It inspires speculators to get hold of undeveloped land and hold it up to the community because there are subsidies coming for future houses. At the end of the last war, all housing was held up by land monopolists because Dr. Addison was handing out housing subsidies. Subsidies aggravate the housing problem, and yet, while we are handing out millions, we have the pathetic picture of a Minister standing at that Box and adumbrating a policy of more subsidies.
  I see in the Civil Estimates that, last year, housing grants amounted to £14,622,000, and, in the year before, £14,479,000. Year after year, we have been shovelling out these subsidies. I listened to-day to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. A. Greenwood) having a go at the present Minister. He himself has been Minister of Health, and what did he do about it? Subsidies. What did John Wheatley do before him? Subsidies. After all these millions have been poured out in subsidies, have we removed the cause of bad housing? Will any ion. Member of this House rise in his place now and say that, by squandering millions of public money, we have even touched the fringe of the problem of bad housing? No one dare say that these subsidies have affected the housing problem to the slightest degree, and yet it is clear that subsidies are again to be advocated.
  Let me come to the other point about the rating system. If a madman had been recruited and asked to devise some policy that would make housing an impossibility, he could not have devised a better scheme than our present rating system—and it is known to every hon. Member of the House. Our rating system penalises anyone who dares to build a house. If he has a family, and needs more house room—more rates. If he says "I will have a better bathroom
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  than I had before"—more rates. "Cut him down with rates, if he dares to improve his house" seems to be the idea, and, while all these blithering Ministers of Health were gabbling about subsidies, we have been operating a rating system that makes housing an impossibility.
  I used to think Glasgow was the place where one could find the worst slums in Europe, but I can say that places like Stoke-on-Trent can almost equal Glasgow. We had an area of the city where people were living in railway wagons and horse vans with no water laid on. I was a member of the Corporation at the time. These people were paying 10s. a week to live in places out in the fields. It was becoming a menace to Stoke-on-Trent, and anything that becomes a menace to the people of Stoke-on-Trent must be a pretty free operation! So I was asked to take the chair at a committee of inquiry into these conditions, and we had these unfortunate people before us. We asked them how long they had lived in these railway wagons or horse vans with no water laid on or any lavatory accommodation. We asked "How much do you pay per week?" The answer was "10s. a week." As all the members of the Corporation of Stoke-on-Trent at that time—most of them—were either subnormal mentally or Conservatives, and it was no use arguing with them, because they were beyond perceiving anything in the nature of an abstract idea, I thought the only thing for them was to take them through a course of experimentation.
  What I did was this. I got a couple of houses built, and I supervised them myself. I always do that if I want an honest contractor. These two houses were built, with three rooms, kitchen and bath. When they were completed, all I required to cover the interest and capital on my houses amounted to 10s. per week—and these people were paying 10s. a week for these railway wagons in the fields. But, when the rates came on—and the rates of Stoke-on-Trent were 19s. in the £—it knocked the rentals just above the mark for the sort of people I wanted to put in. So we came down to the Ministry of Health for a subsidy, a subsidy drawn from taxes collected at much expense by the Chancellor, and passed to us to make good the deficiency caused by the rates imposed on the houses. I challenge any Minister to solve this problem, if he leaves land speculation free in its operation, or

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  continues this rating law which makes housing an impossibility.
  There is another point that he cannot touch on. Low wages, as long as they are low, and other forces, are conspiring against your housing problem, which will drag on in futility to the bitter end. Until a person stands at that Box who is less concerned about his political career and more intent as idealist and a man of courage in solving this terrible problem—until such a person, imbued by the will to make man-made laws conform to God's eternal justice is there, little in civilised housing will be accomplished. Mere devices which make political careers leave devastation behind. I remember an occasion when it was said the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), who was an expert in devising expedients, would when passing out of life see little else than the ruins of his jerry built schemes on the horizon. There is this war dragging wearily on, but there will be an end to it. Is there an hon. Member of this House who will say that when these men come back they are going to stand and wait in this country for two or three years for a house? Are they? That is the challenge to us now? If we were going to work on the easy old way, we should use the old leisurely political methods, but now, there is the pressure of urgency that bids every one of us set aside the slow-going processes for something drastic, something that will cut through the scrubwood of precedent and open the path. I appeal to the House in all sincerity, not to offer something which is nothing more than a political compromise but to take this opportunity for dealing drastically now with the effects of land speculation and the rating system on housing in the country.
  Is it to be said that when the men come back from the Forces, they are to stump the highways and byways trying to find a pillow where they might lay their heads? Will the House rise to the occasion and cut adrift from all the old conceptions, and get straight to the task of opening up the land of this country for the housing of the people?
  I will not repeat the sorry story of what happened when in 1940 we appointed Lord Reith. But there is one detail which was extremely interesting. The Barlow Committee suggested that there ought to be a central planning authority. What happened? They appointed Lord Reith, who
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  was no sooner in office than it was discovered that he was not a planning authority at all. He could not move. If there is one man's memoirs that I would like to read later on, they would be the memoirs of Lord Reith of what he had to suffer when he was in the fortress on the other side of the river. He was not allowed to plan. He got his job on the understanding that he was going to plan, but suddenly, they found that he could get on better with works and buildings, and they converted the title of his Ministry. Meanwhile, he had a look at the very difficult proposition as to how to get rid of the landowners, so then they formed the Uthwatt Committee and handed them the great problem of how to get round the land difficulty. He was followed as we know, by Lord Portal. I would not mention the names of these gentlemen, except that they were involved in this problem. There is Lord Portal, sitting in his fortress with, I do not know how many million officials, and 50 or 60 committees, including the roof and tile committee, the cement committee, the committee for slates and tiles and the committee for this that and the other. Everything about the house has a committee sitting on it, but there is no house. If all the various committees were listed and put into the contractor's yard, we could build all the houses in London.
  What are they doing? They are deliberating—on what? I see the hon. Lady the Member for Anglesey (Miss Lloyd George) in front of me. She is on two committees. She will be able to tell us what goes on in these committees. There was the historic pressure of the landowners, and the Uthwatt Committee made certain recommendations, which to my mind, were fatuous in the extreme. Incidentally and in parenthesis, the Uthwatt Committee made two recommendations. One was that land should be taken for public purposes on the 1939 ceiling. Where is that ceiling? It does not exist. And what is more, a lot of hypocrisy has been let loose on the idea of the 1939 ceiling. There is no 1939 valuation, so that it is hypocritical for anyone to stand up in this House and talk about the 1939 ceiling, for you require a datum line and a valuation which do not exist. The thing to discover is that there is a floor. It was suddenly discovered that the 1939 valuation would not operate fairly because it would be too bad to take land for public

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  purposes under the ceiling of 1939 and allow private land sellers to get away with the speculative values.
  To-day there is a recession from the old proposition of the 1939 valuation. Be that as it may, they had to pass the difficulty on to some one else, not having solved the problem. In order to deal with the rent question, and having an involved statement handed to them by the Uthwatt Committee, they said, "We must get on with planning." Then they set up Town and Country Planning. I heard remarks today which were repugnant lo me. If there is one man that I would like to see making a success of a job, it is the present Minister of Town and Country Planning, but, like other Ministers, he is being hedged around by some unseen hand. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Hon. Members should not make it any more difficult for him as they have tried to do to-day.
  Town and country planning, as I say, was put into operation. These Ministries are literally packed with architects, as if this problem was an architect's problem or even a civil engineer's problem. It is nothing of the kind. The housing problem is an economic problem, and the last man on earth to whom I would submit an economic problem is an architect. The "Aribas" from Langham Place and associates of the Civil Engineers Institute are in every Department, in Works and Buildings, the Ministry of Town and Country Planning. The Associates of the Royal Institute of British Architects were scratching the ground and no seeds were coming up. That is to say, they had little or nothing on drawing boards and there was no chance of much work on buildings being done. The establishment of a Ministry of Works, Building and Planning was a virtual challenge to Langham Place. They forced a bridgehead right to the other side of the Thames, and when Lord Reith was on the top floor of the fortress they entered the basement and took it completely.
  Having learned of a coming change which would lead to the institution of another Ministry of Town and Country Planning they were immediately on the alert. Here would be a place where their æsthetic emotions would not be disturbed by the laughter of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works. When the facts became more definitely known the "Aribas" foregathered. Yes, there
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  is to be a Town and Country Planning Ministry! Professor Abercrombie immediately drew his sword from its scabbard and shouted "Charge." What happened? The "Aribas" made straight for St. James Square. In every Department Of the new Ministry we find an architect. The whole outlook, and the very fact that these Ministries are packed with architects, clearly indicates that those who appoint them do not as yet fully understand that this is an economic problem and not a problem which can be solved by architects. The assumption is that all you want for the problem of rehousing and planning the nation is an abundant supply of architects, drawing paper, inks, pens and brushes—
  The results of these architectural solutions in due course were appearing in books and exhibitions. These worthy planners took their masterpieces to the National Gallery. They covered the floor of the National Gallery with the future planning of London. I went to see it. I found a number of other competitors who had plans which they wanted me to see. When I had had a look at this mass plan on the floor, I met the promoter and asked, "Who did this"? He said, "Me." I asked, "Have you got the land yet in London" and he said, "No, that is your job." But they were being paid for this job. It is an old idea that because you can draw a map or plan you are solving something, and the House should take note that these maps and plans and architects are costing thousands a year.
  May I recall a statement, most appropriate to this occasion, which was delivered by a Member of this House away back in 1918? How appropriate it is. It reminds me that, shortly after the last war, there were the same circumstances and the same course of events and the same arguments, not lacking the clarity I am interjecting into this argument now. This prominent Member of the House in those days said:
  "We have Acts of Parliament running into hundreds of Statutes. We have had regulations that would fill a library. We have had the most effective pictures of model dwellings circulated, and we have had endless authority, but you cannot plough waste land with writing paper, you cannot sweep away slums with paint brushes; you cannot bind the gaping wounds of the people with red tape."
  That was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon

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  Boroughs. That is what he said in 1918. It still holds good, and much more so now, when we are being littered with architectural designs and architectural reports. There is not an architect who will not try to oblige you with a most exhaustive report if you want it at any moment.
  Were we not rather overshadowed by the fear of what is coming to us, we could derive much amusement from the fantastic efforts of the Government and its advisers in their preparation for the planned new world. But that would not get us nearer to the solution of this problem, and that is what is wanted. You must, first of all—and I say this to the Government, and some Members sitting over there used to jeer at me when I said it years ago—attack the present rating system before you can solve the housing problem. I would rather a thousand times relieve the people of £1,000 in rates than give them £1,000 subsidy. I remember in Glasgow when I was a boy—and the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Scotland knows this—the two great fears which haunted the working woman in Glasgow was rent and rates—sometimes a doctor's bill but more especially the rates—because she knew that if her husband was unemployed for a short time and could not pay the rates she was immediately daubed a pauper. It is the same now. The home is the place where the woman has to bring forth her children and the place in which the little children touch the knee and ask the first question and receive the first answer. It is the home, as I said before, that marks the beginning of the spiritual development of the race. How is it that the tabernacle of the family should be burdened with rates and taxes. I challenge the Government to take these rates off the houses of the people rather than run along this prodigal path of subsidies.
  Now with regard to land. Courage is wanted here. I would take the land by declaration of this House. Whose land is it? If the owners say "It is ours," good. How long would this war last, if you only had defended your own property? Who is defending it? The fighting men conscripted from slum factory workshops. They are there to-day, standing as a veritable barrier between the invading bands and those of us who are enjoying the privacy of our homes to-day.
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  Whose land is it now? Who is the landowner who would dare to say to me "This is my property, and after this war is over I will demand compensation from those who defended it"? I give this House fair warning—start that and I will start something else.
  I believe in constitutional progress. I believe in Parliament. I am not altogether oblivious of the fact that this great institution of ours, Parliament itself, in its toleration is allowing me to give expression to these ideas now. I wish to preserve that. God forbid that circumstance should conspire with accident and make it necessary for a person like myself to tell these men as they come back from the bloody battle-fields, "No, you shall not traverse England as the landless men you were before you went. You shall go and take the land you have inherited." Some hon. Members sitting on the Government Bench may feel "He is airing his old ideas; they are not really statesmanlike. He is not even expressing himself in a statesmanlike way." I do not give one damn about that. What I am concerned about is this: that when these men begin to come back, they will get a home and, what is more, I lay it on this House, because I have heard so much nonsense about the pensions of soldiers. I do not want to put soldiers on monetary pensions. I want them, and their dependants, to he a first charge on the land of this country. It is theirs. I want them to draw their own food from the land of this country rather than go about getting a halfpenny here or a penny there, from either a State charity or a personal charity. That these men shall inherit this earth is my demand, and I would ask the Government, "If you really mean business, declare this land to be the property of the nation, and to those who own the land or say they own it, give a life annuity so that they do not come by the same vicissitudes as an unemployed man had to come through before the war. But whatever you give the landowners, give it with reference to their existence and comfort but divorced entirely from any relation to the land value which they forfeit." I see no other way than that—a quick and determined policy to save this country from bloody revolution.
  I am sorry if I have said things that seem extreme. To me they are not extreme. Their extremity is in proportion

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  to the urgency of the circumstance facing us. As I said at the opening of my remarks, I did not wish to intervene in this Debate at all. I oftentimes see the Prime Minister sitting here and being subjected to criticism. I would not like to have his job. What is in front of him should make us a little careful in not plunging too far afield in purely domestic matters. But it was inevitable to-day, seeing that we had touched on this subject, for me to intervene in this Debate. My solution may not be acceptable to the Government, but, before resuming my seat, I say this. This war has uprooted men from all prejudices and forced them to look at fundamental ideas which heretofore they spurned because they had many possessions. But the necessities of the day are demanding that all of us shall face the basic realities of life and try to get our social actions into conformity with the eternal laws of God. That, indeed, is the real function of this House. It may be said that it is difficult because we have to compromise with old historic interests. Weigh these historic interests against the necessities of the moment, when these people come back from the war and, more, the necessities of the widow and the orphan who have been made such as a result of this war. Who is to defend her and her little children? We must do so. Therefore, is it not incumbent upon us to take bold action to cut away the undergrowth, and get a clear mind whereby we can, in some measure, help the building of a country worthy of the sacrifice that is being expended in its defence?
  Mr. Bossom: I think the House will thank the hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren) for the remarkable speech he has just made. He certainly called attention to a phase of our economics on which he is an expert. He touched upon the profession of architects and architecture in a way with which I do not believe everybody would quite agree. Architects have done a certain amount of helpful work in the course of the world's history but the hon. Member may have other ideas on that subject and is of course entitled to have them, and, in this democratic body, we rather appreciate hearing a man speaking as freely as he has just done. But the subject today is housing in the first two years after
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  hostilities have ceased in Europe and I do not wish to detain the House on the other point raised by the hon. Member. I want to thank the Minister first of all for calling attention to one most important point. That is, that we are having this Debate because we all want to get homes for the men and women when they come back from the Forces or from the fields or the factories, when the war is over. That is the reason for this Debate, which a good many of us feel is much overdue. But now that we have it let us try to make the most of it.
  There is to be a short-term policy for those first two years. I think we all agree that we would like to see the situation of the land settled. We have had three remarkable reports, with which we may or may not agree, but we would certainly like to see a pronouncement upon them from the Front Bench and get the land question behind us. But if we are to wait for that we shall certainly not be able to get the houses ready in time for the men who will want them when they come home. It would take a miracle to enable us to get results if we are to wait for all the uncertain points to be settled before we decided on the land policy we are to have in the first two years after the war. Instead we must get on with the question of the houses. I think it is absolutely imperative that we concentrate on them in every way we can, for it is one of the most vital issues before the country.
  I am sure the entire nation feels as I do upon this point, and a good many practical people believe that we have waited a little too long already to get all the houses that will be needed by the time the men will be ready to use them. I think we can have the houses, but to do so a certain number of practical steps have got to be taken. The Minister of Health promised to try to get 100,000 in the first year, and 200,000 permanent houses in the second year, either finished or started. He did not say he could get more, and I think he was very wise in not committing himself. The Minister of Works has promised that when the airfield runways are finished, he is going to turn over the heavy machinery that is available so that the roads on the housing estates can be created and the sewers along the sides of those roads can be laid. In addition he promised to provide temporary houses. I can assure hon. Mem-

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  bers that I have seen some temporary houses and they are quite satisfactory.
  Not many months ago I was in the Tennessee Valley Authority's area in the U.S.A. where there are a large number of individual temporary houses. I went to see where they were being made—at Lafayette in Indiana. They were constructed on a unit basis, 24 feet by 8 feet, and after manufacture were put on to carriers made specially for them and carried 480 miles to the Tennessee Valley. Two units were put together making a small house 24 feet by i6 feet containing a living room, sitting room, two bedrooms, a kitchen and a bathroom. It may sound rather curious to us, but they were making these houses with stressed skin plywoods, and they were complete with carpets on the floors, curtains in the windows, pots and pans in the kitchen, and plates on the rack when shipped to the Tennessee Valley to be put on foundations prepared for them beside the roads that had been provided. Two sections were placed together and a waterproof sheet put round the joint making the two units into one complete house. Within four hours of arrival the wife was inside cooking food for the husband. We can do something similar ourselves if we desire it. I would say definitely that these houses are of good standard, and we must make all of the post-war houses of good standard whether my hon. Friend is keen upon the work of architects or not. They must all be well designed. In spite of the fact that we have a lot to do nowadays we must have good houses. Satisfactory to look at, comfortable to live in, and healthy and fit places in which to bring up a family. They must not he just pictures to look at but real homes.
  If we have 100,000 permanent houses, what about the temporary houses? We shall need a good many of those. How can all this work be done? When hostilities cease in Europe, we must not, this time, leave the arrangement of these houses and their erection, to chance as was done after the last war. We cannot have a wild scramble in which the most energetic gets all the men and materials. We have to decide what we are going to do, where we are going to put these houses, when we are going to have them, and how they are going to be built. Those are fundamentals. With the 300,000 permanent houses, and a total of 1,000,000 houses altogether needed at the beginning
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  of that period, we must know where we are to put them, for they will not all be built in one place. How are we to settle this? It cannot be settled in a Whitehall office. We have to go right to the people who can give us the information where they are really needed. We must have the actual facts about the matter. That actual information can come only from people who can tell us where war damage has been done; how many people will come back to live in each particular area, who will come there into peace-time industry and will stay there to earn a living and what is the actual demand for homes existing at the present time.
  Only local authorities can tell us this and it is important they should be brought into the forefront of this settlement for post-war houses at the earliest moment. If all the local authorities are asked to make their own estimates, many of them may well be rather extravagant and ask for more than they can possibly have. Therefore all these estimates must be very carefully analysed by some independent authority and obviously the Minister or his representatives are the authorities to do this. Therefore I recommend strongly to the Minister to ask all the local authorities affected, if he has not already done so, to prepare their best estimates right away and submit them to him by a fixed date of the number of houses they each consider they must have in the first year and second year after the war. These figures can then be divided up into the number of houses we can build at a time, for we are only going to have a limited number of men and limited amount of material, and these must be allocated to cities and towns where they will be most needed in appropriate sequence.
  Viscountess Astor: Does the hon. Member think that the bombed areas should come first?
  Mr. Bossom: I think all local authorities must give their full knowledge, as I said, giving the best estimate they can, and then the Minister must judge as to what is the best disposition. He should be most careful about priority. Everyone will want priority but it is the men returning from the Forces who must largely be the deciding factors determining priorities. They have been away fighting; when they return they will want a home and are more entitled to

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  get it, and this is the point on which to concentrate.
  Once the local authorities have found out the number of houses to be allotted to them, they can then start to carry out their further arrangements. Once it is decided how many houses shall be built at each place, then there should be a national time and progress schedule so that we can use our building assets for the greatest benefit for all. If this is not done it will be impossible to prevent one local authority who is more energetic than another from getting more workmen and also trying to get more building material. Having the numbers of houses thus properly settled, on what sites shall they be erected? Most local authorities have already prepared plans. They know where they desire their new housing layouts to be. They no doubt have had conferences with the Minister of Health, and probably with the Minister of Works and the Minister of Town and Country Planning, and many of them have had all their proposals already examined.
  Mr. McKinlay: The hon. Member has left out the Minister of Reconstruction.
  Mr. Bossom: Yes, because I think the Minister of Reconstruction looks after his Department through these three Ministers. In spite of the absence of all decision upon the Scott, Barlow and Uthwatt Reports, upon new highways, green belts, and national parks, most local authorities are ready to designate at once the land they feel they will need. In the last two weeks I have been to half a dozen cities and towns, and always heard the same complaint, "Can we be authorised to go ahead and get the land we require?" Local authorities should, I agree with the Minister, be authorised compulsorily to acquire the land they will need. The Minister has told us this to-day and we all appreciate that it is an important step in getting forward. He should request that this acquisition should be completed by a fixed date. Having the numbers of houses, the land, and the sites decided upon—
  Mr. Ellis Smith: I wish we had the land.
  Mr. Bossom: If the Minister carries out the proposals, which he has itemised today, giving authorities the right to
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  acquire the desired land, progress can be made. A short time ago I asked the Minister of Town and Country Planning whether subsidies are to be charged later with retro-active benefits and whether authorities that do go ahead will not consequently be penalised? The Minister said that he could not commit himself that they should be retro-active. This matter is important, for if a local authority goes ahead and provides houses they must not be made to suffer due to progress before later arrangements.
  As to the arrangements of sites made in conferences with representatives of the Ministry of Town and Country Planning who were appointed some time ago, I take it the House is justified in assuming that they have talked with the local authorities and approved the lay-outs that have been put forward. Having hopefully anticipated that all other matters have been settled, how about the laws that will control the actual construction work? Members will realise that many buildings may be built of new materials and by new processes. But there are many anomalies in the present by-laws. I will give one simple example. If water pipes be made of copper, in one town they have to be of 17 gauge, and in the next town, 40 miles away, have to be 19 gauge. There is no earthly reason for such a differentiation. [An HON. MEMBER: "What should the gauge be?"] It is not for me to say what it should be; we have a Department for that purpose. That is not the only example of this trying situation. There is the trouble of carrying out the same by-laws in similar areas. It is not uncommon to find that when the same by-laws are applied by different officials, there were variations of costs in pre-war days that caused differences of £20, £30 or £40 in identically similar houses. This sort of thing should be stopped and I would urge on the Minister again to consult with the Minister of Works and with the local authorities and his own Department in order to cut out anomalies wherever they exist. Equally there are many improvements which can be made in the model by-laws and building laws generally to bring them up to date. As to the laws governing temporary houses, these certainly will call for many changes.
  These different interpretations are serious and cause trouble and expense. As hon. Members know, permits controlling building often have to be granted

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  by different Departments. All remember the unfortunate 3,000 rural cottages which were built, and which suffered delays due to difficulties of permits for several months. We do not want that kind of thing to happen with post-war housing. Permits must not be permitted to delay or needlessly to interfere with this short-term programme. To satisfy this emergency programme we shall need 300,000 temporary houses in the first year after the war and 400,000 in the second year. To handle this whole programme there ought to be only one general authority. The Ministry of Works controls all research—with much beneficial result. The same Department controls materials, and further, they know about all the blitzed areas where repair work has already been done.
  Viscountess Astor: It is not being done.
  Mr. Bossom: On the contrary, a lot of work has been done to remedy blitzed property. I cannot itemise all of this but if my Noble Friend will travel round the country she will see a lot that has been accomplished. But to return to the question of the control of this short-term housing programme. Would it not be better to have one Department only responsible for all this, with the full energy and drive of one Minister behind it. He would alone be responsible to Parliament. All these controls should not be left to the several Ministries of Town and Country Planning, of Works and of Health. It is quite easy for them to pass the responsibility from one to the other. Why not let one Department approve sites and lay-outs and the new forms of material and methods of construction. Let them also approve and introduce any new regulartions which we must have and further approve the allocation of materials and finally give all the permits required. I know this sounds like a great change of our old procedure but we have seen the Ministry of Town and Country Planning moved three times during this war, and I think all will agree that if any private organisation had this work to do it would put it into the hands of one man, make him solely responsible, that being the best and most businesslike commonsense and practical way of getting the work done.
  Mr. Craven-Ellis: That is the way to get it done.
  Mr. Bossom: I agree. If it is left to a number of Ministries there may well be the same kind of trouble as was experienced before. There may be a repetition of the confusion that followed the last war, when, between the end of 1918 and March, 1920, only 715 houses were completed. We cannot afford such a repetition this time. Other speakers have said there will be serious times ahead if we do not have ready within a reasonable time of demobilisation the houses that will be so vitally needed. I would strongly recommend the Government to consider putting all this work—may be only the short term programme—under the control of the Ministry of Works [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I know many will disagree, but it is in my judgment the best way to make it succeed.
  Before the war there was a national building army of approximately 1,250,000. Now we have approximately 5,000, many of them old and many slow. As the Minister said to-day, he does not anticipate much change in this force by the end of the war, and I think he is justified in that view. There is already an education plan for creating more building trade operatives. But I do not think we shall get more than 600,000 to 700,000 first-class men in the first year after the war, or 900,000 to or,000,000 on the average during the second year. If we get these we shall be very lucky. Realise what this force has to handle. Repairs must be done everywhere to churches, schools and business buildings. Roads and new business buildings will have to be built. When the school-leaving age is raised by one year it will require an addition of 20 per cent. more schools than we have to-day. In fact the amount of work that will have to be done is almost unlimited. We should endeavour to get the whole machinery of house production speeded up. It is dangerous, as I see it, to let the situation continue unamended as it has been in the past. We have had a lesson once, we have had it twice, and we cannot afford to have it a third time. We must make the effort this time, and I am sure we can succeed if we take this programme and put it into the hands of one Department, and I believe the best Department would be the Ministry of Works and make this one Minister directly responsible to this House.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: The hon. Member is associated with a very informative report that has been published as the result of a delegation that went to the United States of America. That report shows that the proportionate costs of materials in America are low compared with labour costs, whereas in this country it is the reverse. The proportionate labour costs in this country are higher in comparison with the material costs.
  Mr. Bossom: That is a subject which I do not think comes into this Debate, but I should be pleased to answer the hon. Member some other time. When the Mission recently went to America we took with us certain approximate prices of 17 large buildings built in this country and the cost worked out in the neighbourhood of 55 cents per foot cube. We asked the American authorities for particulars of their last 17 buildings. The cost of those was the same, 55 cents a foot cube as near as we could find comparable buildings. But in the U.S.A. they were paying their skilled operatives about 6s. an hour whereas we were paying only is. 6d. an hour. Thus they could build at about the same cubic foot cost and yet pay their operatives about four times as much an hour as we could. They have been able to do this by speeding up the tempo of their work; not by making their men work harder but by better organisation and simpler laws, more team work, by giving the workers all the mechanical facilities possible and fullest information at the start and by putting the work under one executive control. If we put our work of housing under one executive control I believe we should have a far better chance of getting it finished at the right time and at the best price possible considering all circumstances.
  Mr. Hynd: I think there is one aspect of the Government statement which will be welcomed by the House and endorsed by it in general. That is the recognition of the fact that this housing question is, indeed, one of first priority. Beyond that it is difficult for me, probably because I am a new Member, to appreciate exactly what the Minister has told us to-day that he did not tell us last week. It is quite obvious from the course of the Debate that whatever may be the difficulties of the Government, judging by those who have so far spoken from both sides, the Govern-
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  ment's statement is worth practically nothing. The whole position simply leaves a trail of misgivings that probably will not be exhausted in the course of today's Debate and I, as a new Member, do not propose to take advantage of my privilege to try to range over the whole housing problem.
  But there are one or two aspects that I should like to deal with as the representative of a constituency where housing is and has been for many years in a condition which can only be described as terrible. It has to be recognised, of course, and this will be appreciated by every Member, that the circumstances with which the Government have to deal and will have to deal in the first few years after the war, will probably preclude anything like a real approach to the main problem. We have heard about the shortage of material, labour and so on, and the Government have, of course, taken these factors into consideration. They have also, presumably, obtained returns from the various municipal authorities and have calculated the statistical position and, by those means,, have reached the figure of 300,000. But I think it is rather important to consider what relation this figure of 300,000 has to the real needs, not necessarily of a longterm programme, but to the real, immediate needs of the country at the present time and not necessarily two or three years after the end of the war, and how these first ioo,000 homes are to be allocated. I hope that the Government will be able to enlighten us on this aspect. They seem to have made some progress since last week and I would like to know what they consider to be the basis of allocation of these 300,000 houses among the various districts.
  Take my own district of Sheffield. If the allocation of the first ioo,000 houses is to be based, even broadly, on population, even taking into account the other factors of bomb damage, density of population and overcrowding, Sheffield, with a population of approximately 500,000, could not hope for more than 1,000 of, those houses in the first year after the war. The actual needs of Sheffield in 1939, however, were vastly in excess of 1,000 houses. Sheffield needed 10,000 or even 20,000 houses. The actual immediate needs of Sheffield to-day certainly represent no less than 30,000 houses. Obviously,

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  towns like Sheffield which have had their share of war damage, will be interested to know on what basis the apportionment is to be made of that first 100,000 Other towns have, presumably, also submitted their estimated requirements. They may have needs which they interpret as urgent and I hope that the Government, in assessing the allocation of these houses, will bear in mind that what might appear to be urgent needs in one district may have no relation to the immediate urgent needs in another.
  In the case of Sheffield, for example, the 30,000 houses which I have mentioned, and which are assessed as the immediate needs of the town, are only the most urgent, and to meet the real needs of Sheffield at the present time would mean not 30,000 houses but the demolition of five or six times that number. The actual position in Sheffield is this. In 1939, that is, five years ago, there were already 12,900 condemned slum houses. Of these 6,100 had already been approved and confirmed in Orders for demolition and for replacement. The remainder, the balance of 6,800, represents arrears. That was five years ago when the authorities were condemning houses in Sheffield at the rate of 3,000 a year. Since that time more houses have fallen into a dilapidated condition so that the immediate minimum need of Sheffield in slum clearance alone can be no less than 20,000 houses. Add to that 2,000 to deal with the worst aspects of overcrowding and another 4,000 estimated to be needed to cope with the most urgent demand of young couples married during the war period and then add the war-damaged houses and those that have been destroyed and you reach a figure of over 30,000 houses immediately required.
  I do not know whether the Government, or the House in general, appreciates exactly what that means outside the realm of statistics—what it means in real, stark, human misery. I have been in some of these slums. In one of them the family live in one room on the bottom floor and they have a bedroom upstairs. When you enter the living room the first thing that strikes you is the leg of a bed protruding through the ceiling. You reach the bedroom through a narrow staircase of rotted steps, on which you have to climb on all fours in case one of the steps collapses. The living room is also a scullery. It has a stone sink which was once a deep
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  sink. The edges have worn down flat, so it does not hold water and the floor is permanently wet. In another house the family are compelled to live in one room because they cannot get upstairs. The stairs disintegrated long ago. If you could get upstairs, the rooms would not be habitable, because from below you can see the sky in the gap between the ceiling and the walls. These houses are many hundreds of years old and they are only standing because they are propped up by beams. If you multiply that situation by 13,000 or 20,000, which is the minimum requirement of Sheffield for slum clearance, you have something like 23,000 or 25,000 families trying to exist in these conditions. The parents, where both survive, are coughing out their lives in front of the children, upon whom we place such great store for the future of the country. The most euphemistic description of the situation that I have heard was set forth in the words used by the Minister of Reconstruction yesterday when he said this kind of thing was out of harmony with our consciousness of national greatness.
  How do the Government propose to deal with this problem? That is the question to which the whole House is awaiting an answer. Every speaker who has followed the Minister has made that clear. It is also clear that the whole problem hinges on the question of land purchase. I wish it were as easy as is made out by the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom). He said the Minister had indicated that he has given instructions to local authorities to acquire this land, if necessary compulsorily, and, having got the land, we could then proceed on that assumption to say that this Debate is entirely redundant, because the Minister also mentioned that our needs after the war would be something like L000,000 houses. So we can say, having got the houses, "Why bother over the issue?" But we have neither the land nor the houses, and, though it is true that Sheffield, and other progressive authorities, already have enough land, not for Loco but for 3,000 or 4,000 houses, which they are prepared to build, not in two years but in one if they can be given the labour and the materials, I believe the Minister suggested that something like another 14,000 acres would have to be purchased—I should have thought much more. These authorities have to get that land, unless

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  the whole thing is an attempt to build castles in the air.
  The question which we are always asking, and which has not yet been answered, is: having told the authorities to acquire the land, having recognised that you cannot build houses effectively unless you have land, by what means is the land to be obtained? There is no burking the importance of this. Unless the land can be obtained on advantageous conditions, that is going to have an influence on the enthusiasm of local authorities for siting, the dispersal of housing estates, and so on. They are not likely to be very enthused at the idea of breaking up densely packed central areas with high noting values and buying expensive land on the outskirts on the best sites in order to erect low-rated working class dwellings, unless and until they know on what conditions the land is to be obtained.
  According to "The Times" yesterday the Government can be presumed to have rejected the Uthwatt proposals. Again, the question is asked "Why?" Is it for the same reason that the Uthwatt Report itself rejected the more satisfactory solution of complete nationalisation because it might arouse political controversy? In these days that means arousing the opposition of certain interests which are in support of one section of the Government. It is always very striking to observe that, immediately there is a question of reconstruction or anything else raised which might be opposed by certain groups of interests, the bogy is raised of national unity, but when there is any question of concession from the progressive forces we are at once asked to compromise, whether it is on health, housing or education. That is becoming quite a common thing. You will find the same thing when the health scheme is introduced. We shall be asked to make further concessions to the B.M.A. and voluntary 'hospitals. Whether or not the question of political controversy is involved here, whether or not it might frighten 'sections of Government supporters, we have to accept the fact that, if it is a priority, it is not only a priority in Parliamentary discussion but a priority in the real needs of the people and, if it is to be recognised as a priority as such, the steps to be taken for acquiring the land and solving the problem must also have priority. We are told that private
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  interests are not going to stand in the way of reconstruction but, when any reconstruction proposal comes forward, we find that they are barring the way all the time.
  The policy of this party is quite clear. It is nationalisation of the land and the letting out of the land by the State to local authorities or whoever else requires it in the national interest for national purposes. I know that the Minister of Production and others favour another system, which is based upon the earning of the maximum profit, in other words, a system which should be allowed under that philosophy to extract the maximum profit out of the needs and misery of the people. But if nationalisation as a policy is to be ruled out by this Government because of the war situation, or their desire to avoid political controversy, or for any other reason, what is their alternative? The proposition has often been put forward that the land should be obtained, not on any indefinite 1939 or any other ceiling—there is no 1939 ceiling—but on the basis of compulsory purchase at the assessed value for rateability and taxation. What is there against that proposition? I have not been a Member of the House very long, but I have studied the Debates, and as with the question of the acquisition of land for the 300,000 housing scheme, I have still to wait for the answer to that question.
  The question of prices and rents of the houses has also been mentioned in the Debate and was mentioned by the Minister. Here, again, we are left in the dark as to the approach that should be made in order to maintain prices and rent at a level which can be afforded by the working classes. Are we to understand that there is no alternative in the Government's mind to the perpetual policy of subsidies? Subsidies, in my estimation, represent very little more than subsidies to the maintenance of high interest rates. It will probably be recalled that in 1924 the Minister of Health, Mr. John Wheatley, analysed the rent of the working-class house or the house built at a cost of £500. He found that the cost of labour amounted to 13 per cent, or Is. 3d., the cost of material to 19 per cent. or Is, 10½d., and the cost of interest payments was no less than 66 per cent. I have made a calculation on the same basis for a house built in 1938 and costing £869. In that year the interest rate on

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  housing loans was appreciably lower than in 1924. I find that the interest charge in the weekly rent is still over 5o per cent. of it.
  This suggests to the Government a way in which houses can be made available to the working classes at a rent which has a relation to their incomes without the necessity for any subsidy. If interest rates cost 5o per cent. on a house the rent of which would clearly be £1 the rent would be reduced considerably if the interest rate was reduced by one half. If we could dispose of the interest charge altogether we could make the house available at an economic rent of 10s. Even if the Government themselves had to raise the loans in order to lend the money free of interest to the municipal authorities, and themselves had to pay interest at 2½ or 3 per cent., that would be a much cheaper proposition than paying subsidies to the local authorities and private enterprise. I have heard that there is in the mind of the Government the possibility that the local authorities can raise the money by borrowing from their existing reserves. This may be some advantage, but it must not be forgotten that some of these reserves are very old funds and are still paying rates of interest which are out of relationship to present day conceptions of interest rates. There are still some of these funds paying, 5, 5½ and 6 per cent., and if local authorities were to use them for this housing programme they would have to repay to the fund, not only the capital borrowed, but the interest rates to recoup them.
  I mention one or two of these points, not because I think I have anything particularly original to submit, but because they are among the points which are most pressing in the district I represent. Sheffield is in a fortunate position in regard to this 300,000 housing scheme because it has already the land on which to build the first 3,000 houses. It will not, however, be allowed to build the 3,000 in the first two years. It will probably be allowed to build 1,000, or 1,500, or possibly 2,000, over three years. There is no questioning the fact that it is quite appreciated that that may be an inevitable restriction imposed by the facts of the situation that will follow the war. There is one aspect of the obligation that the Government are seeking to impose on the municipal authorities that I would
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  like to mention. The Minister mentioned that a certain amount of labour, by which I presume he meant manual labour, has been released from work on aerodrome construction in order to assist in this new development scheme. There is, however, a grave shortage of technical assistance in the service of the local authorities. The great majority of the civil engineers, architects' assistants, surveyors, and so on have been called up for military service, or service with the War Damage Commission, or for some other direct war activity. I would like to ask whether the Minister of Labour has been consulted on this point and whether he has found it possible, if not to release some of these men, at least to curtail or to restrict in some way the termination of deferments which has caused a serious problem for local authorities. Unless the technical staffs are available local authorities will not be able to proceed with the preliminary work of surveying and so on, and when the skilled labour is released from work on the aerodromes they will not have much to do.
  I have said enough to endorse what has already been said by other hon. Members, that the Government's scheme, in relation to the actual immediate needs of the people, is meagre. It may be said that that is inevitable in the circumstances, but it is equally clear that the Government have not given the House to-day the slightest amount of satisfaction or the answer to any of those burning questions that are occupying not only the House but the country in relation to the housing problem. There is the question of how prices are to be pegged, because you will be up against the same interests that are making you side step and dodge on the issue of the purchase of land. There are also the questions of how we are to get the land, and of when houses are to be available, and so on. The country is just as interested as the hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren), even if they cannot be so expressive. I ask the Government to appreciate that not only on the Benches of this House, but throughout the country, there is a demand that not only shall an immediate programme of whatever may be found to be necessary be carried out in the first two years, whatever may be the restrictions, but that the real problem of housing shall be tackled by the Government in a way that represents a much bolder approach than we have seen today.
  Mrs. Tate (Frame): I am very glad that it should fall to me to congratulate the hon. Member upon his maiden speech. We all know what a terrifying performance, what an ordeal, it is, and I think that only the terrible housing conditions in his own area must have enabled the hon. Member to accomplish so successfully what is always a nerve-racking, undertaking. I hope that we shall hear from him on the subject of housing on future occasions.
  I feel that the Minister's announcement to-day falls into two parts and that a great deal of what he said on the actual policy of post-war housing has been forgotten, or largely overshadowed, because of the general and justifiable dissatisfaction in the House that there has been no pronouncement as yet on Government policy—if the Government have a policy —in regard to the Uthwatt, Scott, and Barlow Reports. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. A. Greenwood) said he thought there was a rift within the lute. I do not know whether he was referring to the Minister of Town and Country Planning as a lute. If he was, it was a most unfortunate comparison, because the Minister of Town and Country Planning never produces a tune. I very much doubt whether he ever will, because the Minister of Town and Country Planning, when he is faced with a difficulty, is very much in the same position as a jerry-building when faced with a bomb; he crumbles. I only wish it went a little bit further and that he would disappear.
  I am not one of those who are always complimenting the Government, but far too little praise has been given to the actual housing policy which has been announced to-day, and which shows very great imagination, courage, and constructive ability. The Minister of Health is one of the most generous-minded of men, and I am sure that he would be the first to agree with me that he owes a tremendous debt to the Noble Lord the Minister of Works. I agree with the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom) as to the desirability of having our whole housing policy under one Ministry. I should like to see it under the Ministry of Works. I should very much deplore any change of Minister, because I think the Minister is one of the ablest we have had, and one with the most drive, energy and imagina-
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  tion. No one in this House who is aware of conditions in his or her constituency does not know the appalling tragedy caused by the lack of accommodation and the lack of housing at the present time. There has been a great deal of talk about what women have done and have had to put up with in this war, but one of the main irritations that women have had to suffer has been the sharing of their homes and kitchens, and the hopeless lack of any form of privacy.
  We know that there is bound to be a terrible shortage of houses for many years, but surely this House will be sufficiently generous to acknowledge that, in view of the difficulties there will be with materials and labour, the programme of the Government is very generous. The Minister has promised us a large number of permanent houses and a large number of temporary houses, and also a large number of converted buildings, and that is leaving out any contribution which may be made by private enterprise.
  Mr. Silverman: We are all trying to pool our ideas on this subject. Surely the lion. Lady heard the Minister say that, on a conservative and moderate estimate, there would be an immediate need when the war had finished in Europe for 1,000,000 houses, of which he proposed to supply 300,000 in the fast two years. Is that a generous policy?
  Mrs. Tate: The hon. Member's hearing and mine are evidently not the same, but as I do not wish to think like the hon. Member in any way, I almost always differ from him. I still maintain that the actual housing programme is extremely good if it can be lived up to and I believe it can. The figure given by the Minister incidentally was not that which was mentioned by the hon. Member. Also the Minister left entirely out of account the temporary houses and the converted houses, and any houses which may be built by private enterprise. Anyone who goes forth and lets the country believe that we can produce the number of houses required immediately after the war is simply deceiving the public. There would be nothing more cruel or criminal than to pretend it is a problem which we can solve in a year or two, because that is not possible. Nevertheless some Members are too nervous as to the difficulties which will arise from the shortage of building operatives. We can easily have too little

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  imagination about the possibilities of modern methods. There are extraordinary inventions available to us if we have the courage to avail ourselves of modern scientific invention.
  For that reason, I should particularly like to congratulate the Minister of Health, and also the Minister of Works, on the experimental houses which are being built by private enterprise by the Government, for permanent houses, temporary houses and converted buildings. They are being built in war-time in spite of all the very great difficulties. In the course of a very short space of time, hon. Members will have an opportunity of inspecting them. I believe they will be houses of a quality to satisfy, and even more than satisfy, any reasonable requirements. All of us agree that, however great the need for houses, the very last thing we wish to see is shoddy and shabby building making for slums in the future. The imperative need, however, is for quantity in houses. The phrase "prefabricated house" has unhappily been most misleading to many people. I think it would be far better to say "Factory-produced houses." I believe that we can and shall and must have factory-produced houses not only for temporary buildings but for permanent buildings as well. I believe that there are excellent materials which will be available, that the exteriors of factory-produced houses can be suited to the localities in which the houses are built, and that they could be indistinguishable externally from the best buildings of the past. The cost need not be excessive. I believe that standardisation will be the main factor in reduction of cost. What is vital is that if we are to have experimental houses they should be seen by local authorities in the country and that, when they have been seen and approved, existing by-laws should be changed to conform to modern invention. It would be lamentable if new methods were to be hampered or impeded by by-laws which were applicable to buildings of the past. I would stress the point made by the hon. Member for Maidstone, that the by-laws should be nationalised and not localised as at present.
  I would support the tribute which the Minister paid to the building operatives of the country, for the magnificent way in which they have co-operated one with another, and for the great rapidity with which they have often turned out and
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  restored blitzed buildings. In regard to that, we again owe a great deal to the Noble Lord the Minister of Works because of the happy spirit he has engendered in the industry. I beg that this vital question of housing should be placed under one Minister, that the laws governing housing should be flexible and changed in accordance with modern invention and, above all, that the control of building, specification and byelaws should be nationalised and not localised.
  Miss Lloyd George: I think the Debate has shown clearly that there is a great deal of anxiety in the country on this matter of housing and that it has by no means been allayed, indeed will be increased, by the statement we have had to-day. There is no aspect of reconstruction which has such far reaching repercussions as housing. It has been said to-day by a great many hon. Members, quite truly, that failure to tackle it effectively will no doubt have very serious consequences. On the other hand if it is dealt with with imagination more employment will be provided than by any other single means we can think of at the moment. Estimates of all kinds have been put forward, both outside this House and in the Debate to-day, as to the number of houses that will be needed after the war. The Minister himself gave what he called an informed estimate of 3,500,000 to 4,000,000 houses. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) spoke of a figure in the neighbourhood of 5,000,000 houses. I should be inclined to think that the latter will probably turn out in the end to be the more accurate of the two. At any rate, the programme, whatever the estimate may be, will provide an opportunity to rebuild this country. It will give us the opportunity to arrest, as the hon. Lady said, the shoddy, slipshod development of our great cities, and it will give us another opportunity to protect the countryside which has been invaded and despoiled so largely by the vandals of this generation.
  I should have thought that we should take hold of such a chance as this which is rarely offered to any generation, and take hold of it gladly. What, in fact, are we going to do? It is quite obvious that the Government have come to no decisions on all the major questions which underlie this great problem. It seems to me that

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  the Government are in danger of throwing away this opportunity, are in danger of making all the same old mistakes again, because they will come to no decisions on the location of industry, which is fundamental, on compensation, on development rights, all matters which have been raised by many hon. Members to-day. The failure to come to these decisions is holding up local authorities in every way. How is it possible for local authorities to make any co-ordinated plans for their areas? They may make plans for a few houses. A number of houses for Sheffield was mentioned, but it is quite impossible for Sheffield to make any plan which will be of any use for the future. The local authorities do not know where they are to-day and they have no idea where they will be in a few years' time. The Association of Municipal Corporations sent specific recommendations to the Government in 1942, over 18 months ago, and nothing has happened as a result. The right hon. Member for Wakefield mentioned the letter that was in "The Times" only this week, signed by the Lord Mayors of 13 of the great cities of this country, in which they point out that the delays of days and months which will mean in the end a delay of years, because they cannot get on with the preliminary work which is essential before they can make their plans. I would like to read one sentence from that letter. They say:
  "Since 1941 the Government have repeatedly promised local authorities fresh legislation to enable them to prepare for demobilisation by planning towns without being held up to ransom when purchasing property or blocked by sectional interests or by cumbersome procedure."
  Nothing has happened. We have had no decision on that matter from the Minister to-day. He has told us that he will expedite the procedure in one or two particular cases. He said that local authorities were to have compulsory powers to buy land without inquiry, that is for the 300,000 houses and a little more besides. What is to happen after they have made these plans? The local authorities do not know. The only thing they can possibly do at the moment is to make their plans on the old r939 basis. They have no other information to go on. What will be the result? They will build their 300,000 houses. When they come to build the next batch the probability is that when they
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  want to buy the adjoining land they will either find it has gone up in price as a result of the development they themselves have been responsible for or that the land is no longer available.
  The local authorities have been told—I think this was the first stage of this process—that legislation was being foreshadowed. Now we have got as far today as being told that legislation is being drafted. But upon what assumption has the local authorities to work? Will the Minister, or the Secretary of State for Scotland, who is to reply, tell us on what assumption they can proceed? Is the Barlow Report to be implemented? Is London to be allowed to grow indefinitely, and Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Cardiff, all the great cities? Is there to be direction from the Government? Is there to be any control? Are we going to have even the negative control which has been suggested in the Uthwatt Report? The President of the Board of Trade said some time ago that there are to be more industries in distressed areas. Is that wishful thinking or is that a declaration of policy? We do not know. It seems to me, and as far as I can gather from the Debate, that Members in all parts of the House hold the view most strongly that unless we can get these decisions now we shall have the same overcrowding, the same scramble, the same chaotic and unregulated industrial and housing development which we have had for years and which we all wish earnestly to avoid in the future.
  There is no doubt that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will be faced with a very difficult and dangerous situation immediately after the war. He has spoken of some of the problems with which he will be faced, the rebuilding of blitzed areas, accommodation for returning Service men and their families, those who want new homes; also, might I add, the resumption of slum clearance and action regarding overcrowding. He is going to meet these demands by several Measures, but, first of all, there is the question of temporary housing. It is quite obvious that we shall have to try any and every means available. A great many views have been expressed in the Debate on the value of prefabrication. There are some who think that it is the new dispensation. On the other hand there are some who think it means wooden wigwams, as far as I can

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  make out. I think that the truth lies somewhere between the two. After all, prefabrication is nothing new. It has been tried extensively in Sweden for years. There are houses in this country which have been imported from Sweden, there are houses in Wales and in Scotland which have been there for years and have been most successful. Certainly in America prefabrication has been tried out on an extensive scale. We have an example in this country to-day of a very remarkable hospital belonging to the Red Cross which was prefabricated in America, brought over to this country and set up by British labour in the West of England. We must not close our minds. Prefabrication should be of immense value in the years after the war. I do not see why we should not adopt the Kaiser method for building houses.
  There is one suggestion, however, that I would urge the Minister not to adopt. I know it has been put to him. It is the suggestion that some of these new houses which we are going to build should be sub-divided into flats for two families. Even if the Minister adopts the recommendation of the Dudley Committee, which he mentioned, and those buildings are of the highest standard, the accommodation will still be far too cramped. It is said, "After all, you are going to put only small families into these subdivided houses; there is no need to worry"; but it seems to me a most dangerous proposal. To begin with, you do not know how long those families would be there. You would be creating new slums, new overcrowding conditions. I beg the Minister to set his face most strongly against such a proposal; it is far too reminiscent of the old Victorian houses, which have become some of the worst slums in this country. We know only too well that temporary accommodation will have to be resorted to if we are to meet the problems arising after the war. We have to face that. But if there is to be temporary accommodation, it must be made clear that it is to be the property of the State, and rigorous time-limit must be adhered to. I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will not divert too much labour from permanent to temporary accommodation, because I think that by so doing he would lose in the end.
  Materials will present difficulties, but the main bottleneck will be labour. What
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  is the Government policy with regard to this? I would like to say quite frankly —and I do not suppose it is a very popular theory—that I do not believe that if we are going to abide by the Minister of Labour's policy of "first in, first out," the right hon. and learned Gentleman will get his 100,000 houses in the first year, or his 300,0000 houses in the first two years. The rate of demobilisation, at any rate, is going to be slow, with the war in Japan continuing, with the occupation of Europe. The situation is going to be very serious. The age of labour in the building industry is very much higher than the average in other industries—that was the case before the war.
  Mrs. Tate: I am sure by hon. Friend will appreciate that there will be plenty of people who were not in the building industry. before the war available to help to construct the post-war houses.
  Miss Lloyd George: I am coming to that point. The building position will be very serious. Since 55,000 of the men in the building industry before the war were 65 and over, and they were skilled men, or most of them were. Unless we have an organised scheme of training in this country, it will be impossible to carry out this programme. I hope we shall have a great deal more drive and energy put into the training scheme than seems to be indicated at the moment. I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend will see that women are employed in the building trade. If they can be employed in building aeroplanes and guns, why, in heaven's name, cannot they be employed in building houses? There is another matter, which has been raised by, I think, only one hon. Member in the Debate and that is the question of rural housing. Rural housing is sometimes left out in the cold. It seems to me absolutely essential that the Government should make it clear that the people in the countryside must have as good comforts and amenities and as high standards as the people in the towns, and, in order that that may be achieved, the first need is obviously an extension of public services, electricity and water, and sewage disposal. I hope that the Minister will see that a housing survey is undertaken in the rural areas. May I also ask him to see that there shall be a fair allocation of materials and labour as between the town and the countryside immediately

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  after the war, so that the rural population does not suffer, and we do not get this drift from the countryside to the towns starting immediately after the war.
  A final word on standards. I am delighted to hear that the Minister is to publish the Report of the Dudley Committee. Great changes have taken place in this generation in the design and equip-merit of houses, and I believe that these amenities and comforts should be made available immediately to all. I cannot see why they should not be extended. There should be labour-saving devices, better cooking facilities, better arrangements for washing and drying and storing, constant hot water, and more efficient means of heating houses, as well, of course, as more living space. I hope that the Minister will accept the standards which have been set up by the Dudley Committee. And may I beg him not to be persuaded, cajoled or stampeded by temporary considerations into debasing those standards, because once he does that, it is going to be extremely difficult to regain the previous standards. The Government have a tremendous opportunity; they have a great responsibility; they have a chance to be the architects of a new Britain. I hope they will take that chance. If they do, they will earn the gratitude of their fellow-countrymen.
  Mr. Donald Scott (Wansbeck): We have listened to-day to a large number of very interesting speeches. Some of them have been somewhat long; I am going to set a new fashion by dealing with one or two points in 5 or 10 minutes. First, I would like to congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Health on his speech. At the same time, I must admit to a certain feeling of disappointment. I do not go so far as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood), who said that we were being led up the garden. Perhaps that does not matter so much, provided there is a house at the end of the garden. Nevertheless, the country as a whole has been looking forward to this Debate, and has been hoping, and still hopes, for a further statement on the subject. After all, we are dealing here to-day with one of the most fundamental, if not the most fundamental, questions of post-war life. In the past, we have been proud, and at times justifiably proud, of the progress of our social
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  services, and to-day we are planning vast changes in our health services, educational system and, indeed, in the whole set-up of the lives of our people. The danger is that, as so often in the past and, maybe, again in the future all our work and money may be wasted by bad housing conditions. No matter how excellent our schools, or the teaching therein, no matter how efficient the health services, part of their effect is lost and nullified owing to the fact that so many of our citizens have had "o pass their lives in those festering sores of civilization—the slums. This is not, however, merely an opportunity of paying lip service to decent housing, and therefore I am going to try to make one or two concrete suggestions.
  The Minister to-day mentioned the immediate post-war shortage, and the policy of overcoming it by means of temporary houses. I must confess that, in thinking of this policy in the past, I have been rather worried, because it seemed to me that it was going to be very difficult to work without some safeguards. The 'Minister has relieved our minds to-day to a very considerable extent, I believe, but we have to remember that these temporary houses will have to last for a year or two, and must be looked upon as temporary homes and not just temporary houses. In other words, we have to get away from the idea of providing just so many cubic feet of living space, and they must be considerably 'better built than was the case after the last war. One is tempted to think that, when the immediate urge is over, people will say, "These are good enough to last just a little bit longer." We may be afraid that people might say that, with a little alteration here and there, they could be made into permanent homes. In spite of the safeguards, I hope the main drive, from the word "Go," will be towards a new and permanent house. The essence of the whole matter, after the war, is going to be speed.
  I am quite sure the House was very interested, as I was myself, to hear of the interesting housing experiments which the Minister has caused to be carried out—experiments in prefabrication and steel houses—but I was a little surprised when he described these houses, that he did not say anything about the all-timber house as a permanent structure, because I feel that it is well worthy of exploration. In

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  the past, the all-timber house was often a very ugly construction. Again, there was a prejudice against it because of doubts as to its lasting qualities in our very uncertain climate, and there was also the danger of fire, which was, probably, very much exaggerated. But those who have studied the problem and learned from actual experience, as I have, know that ft is possible to build economic, artistic, convenient and lasting houses entirely by this method. So far as the question of fire is concerned, I would only remind the House that insurance companies offer insurance at the premium charged for a normal building of brick or stone.
  At the risk of wearying the House, I would like to give hon. Members my own experience of these timber houses. In 1934 I built a six or seven-roomed house of timber, prefabricated, in one of the bleakest parts of the country. It took exactly eight weeks to build, and, because there was no drying-out, which you normally associate with stone or brick buildings, the occupier (my mother) was able to move in on the very day that the workmen moved out. In the course of 10 years, in spite of a number of very bad winters and gales and all the rest, that house has not cost more than 2s. 6d. in external up-keep and repairs. I am excluding the actual painting of the window frames. I do not suggest that these houses are necessarily much cheaper to build than by the ordinary methods of construction, but I do submit that their great merit lies in the fact that they can be built extremely quickly, they are as good to look at and just as capable of lasting. I do not suggest that they are the answer to the problem of the town and the crowded areas, but I submit that they can make a contribution to the problem as it affects suburban housing, and, particularly, the country district.
  Here let me remind the House of some-think which has only just been mentioned to-day by the hon. Lady for Anglesey (Miss Lloyd George) and that is this problem of the country districts. Let me remind my hon. Friends who sit for town and industrial constituencies that we in the country have a housing problem just as acute as the towns albeit not so spectacular. It is time we realised that the agricultural worker has the right to a decent house. It is a thing we have not
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  seemingly realised before. If he cannot have, because of his vocation, some of the amenities associated with the towns, he must have a dwelling worthy of his high calling, and modern sanitation and an ample piped water supply.
  In closing, let me say to the Minister of Health that, in his plan for getting rid of this dragon of overcrowding and housing shortage, he will have the whole nation behind him, always provided that he is pressing and bold enough. When the people in the services, men and women, return to civil life, when those who have been bombed out return to their old homes, when we return to something like peace-time normality, there will be two righteous demands which we will have to meet. The first will be for a decent job, and the second will be for a home to which a man can return with pride after a day's work, in which a woman can exercise her womanly qualities and in which she can take a pride, and, above all, I think, a home in which future generations can be reared to a healthy, happy, responsible citizenship. It is a high aim, but this country will accept nothing less.
  Sir Herbert Holdsworth: I want to thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Minister of Health, and explain to him that all my criticism is not levelled at him personally. Nobody knows better than I do the difficulties he faces in his new office, but I am bound to say that, over a period of almost 13 years in this House, I have never been more disappointed than I was with the statement he made to-day. A lot of people have run away with the idea that there are to be 100,000 houses built in the first year after the war, and 200,000 in the next. Nothing the Minister said to-day, and nothing he said last week, justifies that assumption. What he really said is that they shall be built or be in course of construction.
  To imagine that in the first two years, even if there were the whole of the 300,000 houses completed, it would give any satisfaction to those interested in this problem means living in a fool's paradise. Housing is the greatest social problem of our time. The conditions of housing in this country, both in urban and rural areas, are disgraceful. They are a blot on our social structure. It is the need of every person to have a decent house in which to live; a

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  house with modern conveniences, labour saving devices and designed to give full advantage of air and sunlight. There is nothing which so contributes to good citizenship and good health as good housing.
  To my mind there are three partners in this problem of housing. First, the Government, second, the local authority, and third, private enterprise. When I criticised the statement made by the Minister, I should have said that I put the whole blame upon the Cabinet. Neither local authorities nor private enterprise can do anything at all unless this issue is made a major policy by the Government. There has been a good deal of criticism of certain Ministers, but I do not subscribe to it. They are absolutely circumscribed, because they can get no vital decisions from the Government on major policy. [An HON. MEMBER: "They can resign"] You cannot expect the right hon. and learned Gentleman, after being only four months in office, to resign.
  Mr. Silverman: Surely, the constitutional principle is that the Minister in charge of a Department, as long as he remains in his Department, is responsible to this House, and if the House does not like his policy, the remedy is to attack the Minister. If he is not personally but only nominally responsible, and does not want to carry that responsibility, then surely, his remedy is clear.
  Sir H. Holdsworth: I admit the constitutional position.
  Mr. Silverman: Have I stated it correctly?
  Sir H. Holdsworth: Certainly, I do not dissent from anything that the hon. Gentleman said on that particular point, but to-day we are discussing a Motion moved by the Minister of Health, and I would be the last to be unfair to him. He has not had sufficient time for us to start being too critical. I am sorry that there is not a member of the War Cabinet on the Front Bench so that I could ask what they are doing about the Barlow, the Scott and the Uthwatt Reports. I trust that the Secretary of State for Scotland, who, I undersand, is to reply to the Debate, will give us some information on that point and tell us if he has suggested to his colleagues that major decisions should be reached. How can municipal
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  or private enterprise plan unless decisions are made on these Reports? What is the view of the Government on the location of industry? Are great cities to be allowed to extend still further or is there to be some limitation? Another very vital question that has to be decided is, Are places where ordnance factories or any kind of factory for Government purposes have been built, to be developed after the war? Until this question is answered how can we plan for more housing? The siting of industry—which is very important—should precede the launching of a national housing programme. There are problems of transport which cannot be solved or formulated until decisions of the Government are known.
  Much has been said about land to-day. I do not want to be dragged into that particular controversy, but I want to make a factual statement. A good deal of exaggeration is talked about the difficulties and the price of land and its effect upon rent. It can be proved that the average price of land for the building of houses, from the end of the previous war to the beginning of the present war, was £25 per house. I think that we exaggerate that particular problem. I would like to know the attitude of the Government with regard to the acquisition of development rights in land as propounded by the Uthwatt Report. I have seen it stated that since the publication of the Uthwatt Report no house-building concern of importance has run the risk of acquiring in readiness for house-building immediately hostilities cease. How can either private enterprise or municipal enterprise plan unless the Government make decisions on these matters? No one recognises more than I do the difficulties of the Government in announcing a detailed housing problem, but there are decisions which can be made on the main problems which will govern that problem.
  I do not think that it is sufficient at this period to have a conception bounded by two years; we should be thinking of a long-term policy. Have the Government made any arrangements with regard to the imports of building materials, particularly timber? I am informed that one-fifth of the earth's surface is covered with forests and that there should be no shortage of timber after the war. That is not a mere problem of housing. It solves two

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  things. If we make arrangements to import timber there is the opportunity for the export of textiles or other manufactured goods and so provide employment for our people. It is a two-way traffic. It is very important to know whether there is to be any price control and, if so, for what period. One of the difficulties as far as private enterprise is concerned will be tremendous fluctuations in value. How are the finance institutions interested in providing loans for houses to know what to lend if, after the war, houses have doubled in price compared with pre-war days, and if in five, six or seven years' time they come down by £300? How are they to fix the loans and the security for them? Are we to have fixed prices, and if so, for how long? In my view, the price of houses is bound to be high after the war. But there may be a fall after a few years, and again, I repeat, there are tremendous difficulties involved in longterm planning if there are to be tremendous changes in values. This not only applies to builders but to those interested in financing the building of houses. Another problem on which it does not seem to me any decision has been made is the demobilisation of key workers and other workers in the building industry. Is there to be a priority, so far as building is concerned, in the building of houses after the war?
  I want to mention one particular subject, and I hope the Minister will give me his attention on this point, because I do not think it has been raised to-day at all and I am certain that hon. Members on those benches will not be surprised when I raise it. The Minister's statement last week, so far as I could understand it, related solely to municipal housing. When are we to have a decision on the building of houses by private enterprise? Building by private enterprise should start at the same time as municipal building. Since the last war we have built 4,000,000 houses in this country and 3,000,000 were built by private enterprise. There were 2½ million houses built by private enterprise without any assistance by way of subsidy from rates or taxes. The cost of building by local authorities is indicated by the fact that between the wars £270,000,000 was expended by the State in subsidies and a further £50,000,000 paid out of rates. These subsidies continue in some cases until 1974, at a cost of £4,000,000 per annum, and loans for
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  municipal houses have amounted since the last war to £750,000,000. Whatever our views may be about private or municipal or national enterprise no one can deny this. During the period between the two wars private enterprise was the biggest factor not only in the acceleration of house-building but also in bringing down the cost of houses. Millions of pounds were wasted after the last war in municipal housing, and I want to suggest to the Minister that the returning soldier ought not to be faced merely with accepting a municipal house. He should be able, if he wants to do so, to purchase his own house.
  Most of the finance for building by private enterprise was provided by building societies. As I always believe in being quite frank with the House, I should say here that I happen to be a director of one of the large building societies. There are large funds available for post-war housing and I want to remind the Minister of what he said in his speech to-day, that the building societies are prepared to co-operate in the provision of houses for sale and of houses to rent or to let. One of the leaders of this great movement only last week made it quite clear that there is a sum of £150,000,000 per annum to finance the building of houses either to let or to rent. Can I ask the Minister whether he is taking steps to see that these facilities are used? Is private enterprise to be allowed to have its full share in the provision of this great social need? Without private enterprise a sound and healthy move towards home ownership cannot be resumed, and I do not think there is an hon. Member here, of whatever party, who would challenge the statement that the great building societies have developed among people a great sense of proprietorship and a great sense of satisfaction in the possession of one's house. It is one of the greatest movements of all time. Are we to neglect this great incentive to individual thrift and independence? In the Prime Minister's speech last March he gave us the number of people who will possess certain amounts after the war. Millions of people will have post-war credits and war savings. What better way could there be than to use those savings in the purchase of a house? I should like to see everybody a property owner and a landed proprietor. That is the way of advance and it is the way of

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  security for old age, and we can achieve this by making full use of the great mutual self-help societies.
  Mr. McGovern: The hon. Member must not advertise.
  Sir H. Holdsworth: I have not mentioned the name of the particular Society with which I am connected, but if the hon. Member speaks to me in private I will tell him. I do not believe you are going to house the people of this country if housing is to be limited to municipal housing.
  Viscountess Astor: I know you will not.
  Sir H. Holdsworth: If I had time I could give the House the figures of the years between the wars and show how housing was accelerated when private enterprise had a chance to function. I do not want the Minister to limit his vision in terms of pure municipal housing. The great essential is speed, and that could be accelerated if there were fewer Departments to deal with and less red tape to unravel. I believe it is a fact that seven Departments have to be contacted before one can build a house. Many people have suggested they would like to see one Department, and so would I, and that would be the Ministry of Health. Having dealt with this problem for 20 or 30 years I cannot understand why it should have been taken from that Department. I could not but smile when I heard the right hon. and learned Gentleman say he was a member of a team. We know something about teams in Yorkshire, and we know how to play as a team, but in my view this is not a question of a team at all. I do not want to use that unfortunate word "dictatorship" but I would like to see one Minister with power—a captain if you like—who could say what is to be done. For the life of me I cannot see why we should surround a Department which has dealt with this problem for 20 years with what the hon. Member for Burslem (Mr. MacLaren) mentioned, the officials in the Ministries of Works and Buildings and so on. In my judgment, that is not going to help solve the problem. The more Ministers we allow to have a hand in this pie, the less result are we likely to get.
  I do appeal to the Minister not to be shoved down to the position of eleventh
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  man. If he is in the team let him bat first, because his Department has always had the first innings, so far as housing is concerned. I believe that the problem of housing our people in a worthy manner can only be solved by the Government, municipal authorities and private enterprise having complete confidence in each other. That confidence can only be achieved when the Government make it clear to those involved what are their plans and decisions on major policy.
  Mr. McKinlay: I do not intend to follow the hon. Member for South Bradford (Sir H. Holdsworth) because I am quite satisfied that in due course we shall get a pamphlet from the Halifax Building Society—
  Sir H. Holdsworth: I have no connection with that society.
  Mr. McKinlay: I understood the hon. Member to say that he was a director of the Halifax Building Society.
  Sir H. Holdsworth: No.
  Mr. McKinlay: Well, then, of some building society. I would rather he had spent more of his time telling us exactly what is meant by the term "private enterprise." It would appear that private enterprise is quite willing to co-operate, not with its own money, so long as somebody else puts up the money. Is a building society private enterprise? Is there a building society which has ever built a house? Is it not true that building societies have financed "spec" builders and that cases have come before the courts of people having been badly let down by private enterprise by paying building societies money for something they did not get?
  Sir H. Holdsworth: No, that is not true.
  Mr. McKinlay: I am prepared on another occasion to prove that it is true. I am prepared to prove that building societies have advanced money for houses for which three coats of plaster were specified but only two coats were put on. I am also prepared to prove a building society's connection with a house in Glasgow through the walls of which a boy, when asked by the foreman whether he could hear him, replied, "Yes, and your tie is squinty." The boy could not only hear the foreman but he could see him

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  as well. As I have said, what is meant by private enterprise?
  Viscountess Astor: Initiative and courage.
  Mr. Lipson: Cutting out red tape.
  Mr. McKinlay: Yes, I know, but what is meant by private enterprise in the building of houses? Do hon. Members opposite want an authority to plan areas and bear all the initial costs and then step aside for the private speculator, who is not risking his own money? The major aspect of this problem is in the provision of houses to let. Private enterprise has made a substantial contribution towards this problem, but I remember in 1931 being privileged to be in attendance on my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland who, with my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood), was in consultation with Sir Tudor Walters. If I mistake not, my right hon. Friend the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) was also there.
  Sir Percy Harris: No.
  Mr. McKinlay: Then a member of the party which my right hon. Friend represents. The conference was on rural housing, after which there was an agreed Measure. Those who are doing some of the shouting now about this problem were responsible for scrapping the only Measure ever placed on the Statute Book which provided decent rural accommodation at reasonable rents. [Laughter.] I do not know why there should be this humour. I know hon. Members in this House who substituted the Act of 1933 for the Wheatley subsidy. It was not the cessation of building caused by the war which created this problem. It was the deliberate policy of those who controlled the House of Commons between 1931 and 1939. They said "Leave it to private enterprise."
  Sir H. Holdsworth: And they did.
  Viscountess Astor: Is it not true that in this country more people were taken out of the slums and more houses were built during that time than in any other country in the world, including that paradise, Russia?
  Mr. McKinlay: When I want to choose a paradise I will choose it for myself. But
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  supposing I admit that what the Noble Lady says is true, it is in relation to the problem as a whole. Does she tell me that in her constituency, apart from bomb damage, the housing problem is something which has been created by the war?
  Viscountess Astor: Of course not.
  Mr. McKinlay: Is the Noble Lady trying to tell me that the houses which were built in the West of Scotland 100 to 125 years ago—
  Viscountess Astor: I am not responsible for that.
  Mr. McKinlay: No, but the Noble Lady is a fair example of the descendants of those who did create those conditions. I want to protest on behalf of Scottish Members that this Debate is covering England, Scotland and Wales. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I will tell you. The unfortunate English people have to deal with six different Ministries in connection with housing. We in Scotland have to deal with only one.
  Captain Duncan: No.
  Mr. McKinlay: The hon. and gallant Member can argue that with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.
  Captain Duncan: May I explain to the hon. Member—because I have had to deal with it—that if you want timber, you must get it from the Ministry of Supply in London?
  Mr. McKinlay: Yes, and I suppose that if I wanted screws from Nettlefolds in Birmingham, I would have to get a permit from the Iron and Steel Control. It is proposed, even during the war, to use a labour force created for the construction of aerodromes. There is something about this that I do not understand. Here are building trade craftsmen who were reserved because it was essential that not only aerodromes but hutments should be prepared for soldiers—to get soldiers out of the country. One would think the reverse policy would be to prepare some place for soldiers coming back. But by the end of next month there will be a redundancy of a very considerable number of men, including designated craftsmen, who are working on the roads, putting in drains and laying bricks. If the designated craftsmen are not needed in

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  the Fighting Services you are wasting their time and their skill in using them for the construction of roads. There is bound to be a considerable force of labour, normally employed on road construction, available for road construction and you can use your designated craftsmen in the work they are best suited to do, namely, building houses. I put forward this suggestion in the hope that, if the right hon. Gentleman cannot get agreement with the six Ministers responsible, he will go into conference with his Under-Secretary and agree to apply it to Scotland.
  I am satisfied that the "nigger in the woodpile" is going to be the same old nigger who was always in the woodpile—the Treasury. Everyone is agreed that building trade costs must be reduced. How are they to be reduced? By the usual methods—cost of production methods. On many occasions costs of production have been cut down by reducing wages, but there are one or two things the Government might do in the interim. Will they let us have any information as to the cause of the abnormal increase in the cost of timber? Surely it is not a question of saying that the supply is restricted. I understand that even the restricted supply is controlled, yet the figures given by the Parliamentary Secretary to-day would suggest that there has been a ramp in timber. I have received letters of protest over the week-end saying that it is not so. When the war broke out, bricks in the West of Scotland were priced at 34s. per 1,000. In 1939 the price jumped to 77s. The workmen's wages increased by about ⅛d.
  Mr. Wragg: Wages in the brickyards have doubled since the war.
  Mr. McKinlay: I am talking of the period between 1937 and 1939. The Government have the machinery to analyse the figures. We know that bricklayers in the early stages of the war entered into contracts which they never had any intention of fulfilling, because Government Departments were offering bigger prices than anyone. I do not think you can build a four-apartment house costing £950, plus £60 for roads and services, and let it to a member of the working class unless the Government have substantial financial proposals up their sleeve in the new housing legislation. On houses built in the West of Scotland
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  and completed last year the annual loss amounts to £54 odd per annum. What do the Government propose to do about it? Unless the local authorities know what their financial position is going to be, not only in the immediate post-war period but for a considerable number of years afterwards, I am satisfied that the optimistic estimates of even 50,000 houses in Scotland in the first two or three years will fall short of the output. Unless local authorities know where they are likely to be placed in connection with financial assistance, I say, as a member of a local authority with considerable experience in this line, that local authorities, who have to withstand the pressure of houseless persons even more acutely than Members of Parliament, cannot be compelled to go ahead with large-scale developments.
  Mr. Wragg: I do not often speak in this House. The last occasion was a coal Debate, when the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) congratulated me on coming forward and said that, though I had been in the House a long time, it was only when, like the silversmiths of Ephesus, my trade was in danger that I rose to my feet. Similar circumstances do not arise to-day. I have risen to express sympathy with the Government's point of view with regard to the housing problem. How can they decide what subsidies are to be given to local authorities and to private enterprise when they do not know what houses are going to cost? In my constituency there are agricultural cottages which cost between £900 and £1,000, apart from the little bit of land. There is much talk about the cost of land, but that is a fleabite. In agricultural parts of the world the land on which an ordinary cottage is built costs about £10. This is only history repeating itself. After the last war working class houses cost £1,000 under Lord Addison's Ministry of Health, and it was only when Sir Alfred Mond became Minister of Health that he said, in effect, "If cottages are going to cost £1,000 something has to be done or there will not be any." There will not be any houses if they cost £1,000, unless the value of money is going to be altered altogether from what it is now. Why are houses costing £1,000? Of course it is due to the war—demoralisation of values altogether and demoralisation of labour. See how bricklayers work to-day compared with the way they worked

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  before the war. See the way men mix concrete compared with the way they did it before the war. The reason is obvious. When the war started the Government, having learned nothing from the last war, began to make contracts on the basis of time and percentage, and that continued for a certain time. Naturally, if the contract was based on time and percentage it meant that the longer the contract lasted the more the contractor got out of it, and that is the reason why the Select Committee on National Expenditure found out that our ordnance factories and aerodromes are costing two or three times the estimate. It was then decided that there must be a sort of target for bricklayers, and a target even for contractors. Take the target for bricklayers. For 4½ inch work it is something like 225 bricks a day, or for 9 inch work 350. I was brought up as a civil engineer and I know how many bricks a man ought to lay.
  Mr. Quibell: How many should he lay?
  Mr. Wragg: In my opinion 600 or 700 a day on nine inch work on housing. Of course the retaining walls of railways or reservoirs is a different proposition. The amazing thing to my mind is that it is costing more to-day to lay bricks than it is to produce bricks. The hon. Member for Dumbartonshire (Mr. McKinlay) talked about 77s. per 1,000. I should be glad to supply millions of bricks at that figure, because the price to-day is 60s. and it is controlled. It is no use saying that the price of building materials is going up in every direction, because it is controlled. You cannot increase prices at all without the consent of the Ministry of Supply. [Interruption.] I do not know about timber. That is different, because it has to be imported. I am talking of building materials manufactured in this country. How is it that houses are costing so much? The reason is that it costs 100s. per 1,000 to lay bricks. All the processes of manufacturing bricks, including the transport and the burning of the clay, can be done for 60s., and bricklaying costs 100s. per 1,000, whereas before the war it cost 44s.
  Mr. Quibell: The hon. Member alas been telling us about the difference in the price of bricks and the cost of bricklaying; can he tell us why we used to be able to buy bricks at 22s. 6d. and you are now charging 70s.?
  Mr. Wragg: I thought that might arise. Before the war of 1914 bricks could be laid at 20s. per 1,000, and to-day it costs 100s., which is five times as much. Before the war of 1914 you could buy bricks at 20s. per 1,000, and to-day you can buy them for 6os. Therefore, owing to various war costs, the cost of bricks has gone up three times and the price of labour five times. All this shows the almost impossibility of the Government deciding what subsidies shall be allowed. It will be very difficult unless the price comes down. The price of a house came down from £1,000 in 1919 to £400 in 1924, and history will repeat itself. I hope that on this occasion it will not repeat itself by strikes or by unemployment, but by sweet reasonableness and compromise among people meeting together. The price is sure to come down, because I cannot see any substantial number of houses being built if the working-class house costs more than £600. That is about 50 per cent. over pre-1938 and is a reasonable price.
  I would like to make one or two suggestions with regard to contracts for housing in the future. Fixed contracts should be entered into and not contracts based upon quantities. The contractors would take out their own quantities and there should be specifications and a fixed price. The Government should use the opportunities they have to buy materials in bulk. They might save a considerable amount in that way. I would also suggest that the workmen in all the different departments should be paid by results, because there is nothing like paying people according to results. Then they can get the benefit of their own energies. I hope that what I have said may be useful, because it is to my mind essential that, apart from prefabricated houses, which may for a short time get over part of our difficulties, we should have substantial, well built houses for the comfort of our people.
  Mr. Silkin: Almost every speaker in the Debate has impressed upon the House the immense responsibility with which the Minister of Health is faced and the tremendous difficulty of his task. Various difficulties have been quoted indicating the size of the ultimate task with which he will have to deal, and it is difficult for an ordinary Member to make up his mind between the different figures that were given. My own impression is

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  that ultimately my right hon. and learned Friend will have to deal with an even higher figure than any of those that have been mentioned. If one looks up and down the country at the quality and condition of the houses, one will find that the vast majority, apart from those that were built after the last war, are really not up to a standard of which we should approve to-day.
  For instance, in one of the larger Metropolitan boroughs of London I had the opportunity of talking to the town clerk and various officers of the council, and I was told that, with the exception of a few hundred houses, every house in that area would be condemned as not up to modern standards. That is an indication of the size of the task. It is a tremendous task with which the right hon. and learned Gentleman is faced. Housing conditions have had a set back of, I should say, at least 25 years, as a result of the war. Conditions to-day are roughly what they were about 1914. That is an indication of the leeway the Minister will have to make up. I think he said that the public were probably more concerned about housing than about any other social service, and I believe that that is true. The future of democracy in this country may depend upon whether we can solve this problem of housing successfully, and show the necessary qualities of energy, efficiency and imagination.
  A great many speakers have complained of the lack of decision on the part of the Government in failing to arrive at conclusions in regard to the Uthwatt, the Scott and the Barlow Reports. I would associate myself with those speakers who complained, some of them in the very strongest terms, about the failure of the Government, particularly in relation to housing. I fully agree with all those who have spoken that it is difficult for housing authorities to make up their minds about their housing programmes until a decision has been come to by the Government and legislation introduced on the various matters dealt with in the Uthwatt Report. In passing, may I say that I read with very great interest, and a considerable measure of agreement, a document issued, to my surprise, by the Tory Reform Committee, in which they make a very strong case along the same lines?
  I do not want to labour that point, which has been put remarkably well by a
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  number of speakers, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. A. Greenwood) and other hon. Members. I hope that local authorities will not use what has been said here and outside on this point as a pretext for not doing all that they can to make preparations for carrying out such housing work as is within their power. I agree that it is essential that we should have a ceiling regarding the cost of land. One has to be fair in this matter. A great deal of land can be acquired for housing purposes at prices below the ceiling and in those cases the local authorities can have no complaint that the ceiling has not been fixed. There are other cases in which speculation has taken place in land, and in which local authorities may be in a difficulty, but, at a guess, I should say that, in the majority of cases, land can be acquired at prices below the 1939 ceiling.
  As has been pointed out, a good deal of land is already in the possession of local authorities. It can be said also with a great deal of truth that it is difficult for the local authorities to decide exactly on the siting of their housing until they know what is to be the content of the national plan and until such questions have been determined as the location of industry, the size of their towns, and what will be their requirements generally as to open spaces, roads and so on. I agree that there are difficulties of that sort. On the other hand, in a great many cases local authorities can determine where their housing operations shall take place, whatever the nature of the plan may be. I know London best of all, and I think it can be said that there is enough housing work to be carried out for two or three years at any rate, regardless of whether any particular plan is settled or not, because we know that, whatever plan may be settled and whatever may be done, even about the location of industry, we shall always require housing in certain areas and on certain sites which are already possessed.
  Therefore, while I do not wish in the least to derogate from the strong words which have been addressed to my right hon. and learned Friend—I am sorry for him, because it is really not his fault that he merely happens to be the target that presents itself at the moment, although any other target would be equally welcome—it is right to point out that local authorities must not make the failure of

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  the Government to arrive at an early decision an excuse for not proceeding as rapidly as they possibly can.
  Viscountess Astor: I know that the hon. Member speaks for a blitzed area. Does he mean that in London the authorities will get on with replanning, without waiting for the Uthwatt Report to be adopted?
  Mr. Silkin: I tried to make my meaning clear. What I said was that we could get on for a time. We should have no excuse for sitting back and doing nothing, merely because the Government have not adopted the Uthwatt Report. I should feel that we were strongly to be censured if we did that. My right hon. and learned Friend has given us an indication of what he regards as a short-term programme. He is in agreement with the Labour Party. We have issued a short-term programme and a long-term programme, and we have made it a condition of our short-term programme that it should fit in and harmonise with the long-term programme, and that nothing should be done in the short-term which would prevent the long-term programme from being carried out. I know that many hon. Members are somewhat disappointed with the number of houses which my right hon. and learned Friend has promised in the first two years after the war. I understand his promise as not necessarily meaning that all those houses will be completed. Personally, and with some experience of building to a programme of housing where there were very few difficulties and no problems of finance, I realise how difficult it will be to achieve even the figures which he gave. I do not say at the moment that we cannot do very much better than we did after the last war, but it is right to remember that it took us seven years after the last war to reach an annual output of 200,000 houses. That is not to say that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has not done well, but I should like to remind the House that 4,000,000 houses were built 'between the wars, by private enterprise and the local authorities, and of that 4,000,000, nearly 2,000,000 were built in the last five years before the war.
  Sir William Wayland: By private enterprise.
  Mr. Silkin: I will say a word about private enterprise later on. I am not going to burke that issue. I think we have to face it. As I say, even those
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  figures which my right hon. and learned Friend has put forward can only be attained by the most energetic action, and therefore I hope he will see to it that the sites really are cleared and made available and suited for housing, that plans are prepared—you have to be behind the local authorities, to be at their back all the time, to see that the plans are prepared—and even, so far as is possible, provisional contracts entered into, so that the moment the signal "Go" is given building operations can be commenced. I think if he does that there is a chance, at any rate, that his figures will be attained.
  The question arises, What part can private enterprise play in this short-term programme? My right hon. and learned Friend has assumed that they will not be in a position to play a very great part. I want to say here that the housing problem is so urgent that we ought not to let any political question stand in the way of housing people as rapidly and efficiently as possible. If private enterprise can do the job let them get on with it. I should not stand in the way. But private enterprise will in any case be carrying out a great deal of the work. The work will be contracted. The contractors are private enterprise, and to talk foolishly about private enterprise against municipal enterprise seems to me to be lacking in clarity. The work is really a partnership between private enterprise and municipal enterprise.
  As a matter of fact the great bulk of the housing that will be required in the short-term programme will be housing that will have to be let at low rents, at rents which are uneconomic, and of course private enterprise is not interested in uneconomic rents, and it is for that reason, I imagine, that my right hon. and learned Friend took the view that there was no place for private enterprise, as it is generally understood, in the programme of the early years. Private enterprise only comes in at the time when profits can be made, and I am afraid those will have to wait. But I would like to suggest to private enterprise, Why not come in and take a hand in this particular type of rehousing? Private enterprise would, of course, prefer in the main to build houses for sale, but the great demand will be for houses to let. Why should not private enterprise come in, have a good try, and build houses to let at rents which those

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  who inhabit them will be able to afford to pay?
  Sir Harry Selley: May I ask the hon. Member whether, if private enterprise came in to build houses to let, he would agree that they should have the same conditions, such as the subsidy, as the local authority?
  Mr. Silkin: I shall face all the issues. Let them come in and carry out their housing on the same terms as the local authorities, that is to say, let them charge the same kind of rents, let them be subject to the same strict methods of management, and carry out repairs and maintenance in the same sort of way. If they do this, if they are willing to be in the same position as local authorities are, I see no reason why they should not get the same subsidy as the local authority.
  Mr. Colegate: Would the hon. Member also include the right of compulsory acquisition of land which the municipal authorities are to have?
  Mr. Silkin: Municipal authorities do not fare particularly well from a financial point of view out of compulsory acquisition of land, but arrangements have been made in the past between local authorities and private enterprise to lease land to enable them to build. I should myself not oppose any such arrangement provided that private enterprise could deliver the goods. The predominant consideration must be the provision at the earliest possible moment of housing of the kind that is needed.
  I want to say a word about standards of construction. I think this is most important. On the next Sitting Day my right hon. and learned Friend will probably be telling the House of the great improvement in health that has taken place among the people of this country in the past 20 or 25 years, and I think we are justly entitled to be proud of that achievement. But I wish to claim that in a very great measure this improvement in health is due to improved standards of housing accommodation, and probably in another context my right hon. and learned Friend would be claiming the same thing. I think it is very true that housing standards largely determine the conditions of life in which people live, and therefore, whatever happens, I want an assurance from my right hon. and learned Friend
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  that we shall not lower our standards, whether in permanent construction or temporary construction. Indeed, great pressure will be put upon him to improve our standards, and I hope he will succumb to that pressure. There must be no excuse for compromise along those lines. The report of the Dudley Committee has been referred to. I do not think the Dudley Committee is the last word on housing, but at any rate this is a Report which was made by a large number of people representing all types of opinion. They unanimously arrived at the decision that considerably improved standards of housing are necessary. I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend will not lightly disregard the recommendations of that Committee.
  My right hon. and learned Friend has, since last November, given local authorities and private enterprise considerably increased powers of carrying out repairs and maintenance and adaptations and conversions of certain types of houses. I wish it were possible to carry out all the arrears of repairs and maintenance during the war, so that when the war ends we can go right ahead with the work of new construction. Unless we do that we shall be faced with an enormous burden of arrears, and to that extent the undertaking of new construction will be interfered with. I should like my right hon. and learned Friend to be energetic and approach the Minister of Labour, and see whether he cannot get the necessary labour, much more than he has got at the present time, to carry out this work of repair and maintenance and conversion and get that out of the way. Otherwise he will find himself with perhaps two years' work. I think the figure of two years' work has been mentioned as representing the arrears of maintenance and repairs.
  But when all that is done, when he has carried out all this temporary work during the war and made all the preparations for the 300,000 houses he proposes to build in the first two years after the war, he will still not have gone very far towards solving the problem which he himself has placed before the House, of providing 1,000,000 houses which he says are urgently needed during the short-term period. I think he has somewhat understated the requirements. If, in fact, the proposal is to provide every family that

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  needs it with a separate house during this first period, then these requirements will be substantially greater than 1,000,000.
  I should like to remind the House that in London alone two families out of three are sharing houses which in the main were built for occupation by single families. If the Minister is going to spread out these large numbers of people at present sharing houses in London—and I think these conditions are prevalent all over the country at present—he will need far more than 1,000,000 houses. So he is proposing to put up a certain number of houses with a limited life. I think it is useful to put it that way rather than to call them temporary houses, because a great deal of the other work that is being done, such as conversion, will be of a temporary nature. The Minister has asked the House to retain an open mind on this, subject. I want to ask him to retain an open mind on the subject, because I gathered from his remarks that the Government were more or less pledged to the provision of these houses with a limited life.
  While no one who realises the size of the problem will lightly reject any solution, we are entitled to set out certain conditions which must be observed if these houses with a limited life are to be provided. I would ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to bear these points in mind. First, these houses must not be sub-normal. They must be provided with the normal amenities, and the rooms must be of the normal size. In fact, they must be normal houses, but built less strongly with a shorter life than the normal life. I do not know whether you are going to get that type of house. My own view is that if you can get a house which will stand up to the normal wear and tear of houses for 15 years—and you have to reckon on 15 years, because you will not be able to dispense with these houses until you have an adequate supply of permanent houses—you will have a house which will stand up for 50 years. You have to find a house which will have a normal life of 15 years and not much longer, and it must be a normal, not a sub-standard, house. The second thing is that it must not be built on a site where permanent houses are to be built. I have been told that these temporary houses will be put on the sites of bombed dwellings. In so far as this will not interfere with longterm housing progress, I should have no
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  objection, but you must not put them on sites which will be wanted for permanent housing. That will limit your choice. I am told that these temporary houses will be built in one storey, and, therefore, they will take up more space than normal houses. Having regard to the fact that you cannot put them close together, because they are not insulated against sun, you can get only a few houses.
  Captain Duncan: Does the hon. Member think that in the London area there is really any scope for that type of house?
  Mr. Silkin: I do not close my mind to anything, but that is the way my mind is working. Thirdly, my right hon. and learned Friend must look at cost. It is a regrettable necessity, but I am told that these temporary houses will cost just as much as permanent houses, if not more. My right hon. and learned Friend may doubt it, but a short time ago I had a reply from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. He has been carrying out some experiments, turning Nissen huts into temporary accommodation. He has converted them into three-apartment and four-apartment dwellings, and the cost of converting a Nissen hut into a three-apartment dwelling was £790, and of converting it into a four-apartment dwelling £890. I want to be quite fair, as I hope I always am. My right hon. Friend did say that, as time went on and he did the conversion in numbers, he hoped that the cost would come down.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. T. Johnston): Did I not also say that it was a rush job, that double time had to be paid, and that there were other allowances of that kind which had to be made?
  Mr. Silkin: My right hon. Friend did not actually say, in the answer to the question, that it was double time, but I do not dispute that. If we are to spend money on that scale, I think the case for the temporary houses breaks down. It can be justified only on the basis that it is substantially less costly than a permanent house. Moreover, I am told that these houses cannot take the ordinary coal grate, and that heating and cooking have to be done by gas and electricity. In areas where the cost of electricity is high, that will be a very great burden on the people who have to live in them. Taking all these factors into account, it looks as if there is some doubt whether it will be

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  really practicable to adopt a policy on any scale of providing houses with a limited life.
  I want to say a word on building costs. That is a subject with which several hon. Members have dealt. It looks as if at the end of the war with Germany building costs will be 75 per cent. above pre-war —it may be 70 per cent. or 80 per cent., but I think 75 per cent. is roughly right. On the basis of letting such houses at existing rents in London—which I think is a fair example—the loss per annum will be £30 over a period of 60 years. That is the amount which will have to be made up out of public funds. In other areas where rents are lower the deficiency will be greater. I want my right hon. and learned Friend to face up to that fact. How long are we to carry on paying per £30 annum in respect of the houses that have been put up? Therefore, something must be done about building costs. I am not going to attempt, in the few minutes left to me, to apportion the blame for high costs, as between labour, the builder, and the cost of material. It is a technical question which requires a great deal more investigation than I have been able to give to it. In a normal house the cost of material represents 55 per cent. and the cost of labour represents 45 per cent., in the case of direct labour. If the cost of building is to come down, all parties will have to make a contribution; and I do not rule out the fact that labour will have to make a contribution. It is stated—and this will have to be investigated—that the output of labour is not altogether satisfactory. I do not deny that men who are guaranteed a reasonable week's work should be required to produce a reasonable week's output.
  I think it is a profound mistake to assume that, having got a reasonable output from labour, you have thereby solved the problem of cost. You have done nothing of the kind. You have still to deal with the cost of materials, and you have still to deal with the fact—it is, unfortunately, a fact, in spite of what has been said about private enterprise—that the t building industry is not altogether the most efficient industry. I can think of a great many industries more efficient than building, and the building industry has a great responsibility in this matter, too.
  I began my speech by referring to the difficulties and responsibilities of my right
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  hon. Friend, and I want to end it by referring to his great opportunity. He has an opportunity which many will envy. I hope he will seize this opportunity and take advantage of it and show courage. I think courage is probably the quality that is most needed. May I say to him that I believe he has shown it by coming to this House and not holding out glamorous promises of what he hopes to be able to do? He would have had a much easier passage in the Debate to-day if he had been able to tell the House that he had a proposition to build a million houses in the first two years, but these promises would have come back to him in the end. I think he has shown courage, at any rate, in facing the storm to-day and not promising to the House more than he can carry out. May I wish him, as this is the first occasion on which he has addressed this House on such an important matter, the very best of success?
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. T. Johnston): I am quite sure I am expressing the views of every Member of the Government who heard the speech to which we have just listened, when I say that we are extremely grateful to the hon. Member for it. It was a constructive statement and will be of very great assistance to us. I entirely agree with the hon. Member in the first proposition he put. The size of this problem is so great that no previous predilections should stand in the way of any honest attempt to remedy, at least partially, the difficulties with which we are faced. In Scotland, we have, according to the last census, 300,000 houses without separate lavatory accommodation. What that means can better be guessed than expressed. We have areas where there are 40 per cent. of our householders living in over-crowded conditions, and this state of affairs, unfortunately, has been accentuated and aggravated by the war. Building has stopped, repairs have had to be postponed, there were blitzing and bombing in particular areas, and the nation, the Government and all parties in the State must face up as best they can to remedying the present parlous state of affairs. My right hon. and learned Friend and I were in this dilemma. We could not afford to wait any longer in making the initial preparations for a mass attack, within the limits of our power, upon this housing problem. We could not afford to wait until all the

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  niceties and intricacies of the Barlow Committee Report, the Uthwatt Report—
  Viscountess Astor: We have waited for years.
  Mr. Johnston: The Noble Lady will allow me, I have listened to all this—
  Viscountess Astor: Not my speech.
  Mr. Johnston: We are in this unfortunate position that we had to decide whether or not we could afford to wait. That is what we had got to decide. [Interruption.] Perhaps the Noble Lord will permit me to continue.
  Earl Whiterton: I was cheering. Are not cheers now permitted by the Government as well as "ironical cheers"?
  Mr. Johnston: I always respond to a cheer but, in the limited time at my disposal, it is an embarrassment rather than a help. We had to face the fact that action within the limits of our power was urgent and we made up our minds that we would press forward at once with the servicing of sites in areas of the local authorities, particularly in the more blitzed and the difficult areas. We discovered that there would be a labour reserve force, with machinery, such as bulldozers and so on, available in the late spring of this year, and we asked that this force should be put at the disposal of the Health Departments so that it should not be allowed to be dispersed but would be diverted to the local authorities to ensure that drainage, water supplies, sewage, paths, roads, should be prepared this year for what possibilities of construction later on could be secured. No hon. Member, as far as I have heard to-day, has objected to that step, but hon. Members say, "What about the prices of land? What are you paying for land? Are you not going back on your pledges about Uthwatt?" To the best of our knowledge and belief, as my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) confirmed from his wide experience in the London area, we are paying now for land, substantially, March, 1939, prices, and in some cases we are paying less than those prices. That is the report given to me by the Chief Valuer in Scotland, and it is, I believe, the experience also even in the large industrial areas in England.
  The local authorities have now, by and large, one year's land in their possession.
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  We are urging them to double it and informing them that this can be undertaken and the land can be acquired without in any way violating the pledges of the Government about accepting in principle the Uthwatt, March, 1939, ceiling. Members to-day have expressed some considerable apprehension even on that point. They say, "What about land? What about these prices that you are paying?" I have no predilections in favour of paying high prices to landlords for land, but do let us get this thing in its proper focus. The hon. Gentleman the Member for South Bradford (Sir H. Holdsworth) said that the average cost of land per house, in the' period between the two wars, was about £25. In my part of the country that price is too high. The average price with us was about £20 or £200 per acre. May I put this to the House, without any desire to make a scoring or debating point, but simply to get the facts square.
  Two hundred pounds per acre, ten houses to the acre, means £20 per house, and the current Public Works Loan Board rate is 3¼ per cent. A 60 years annuity at 3¼ per cent. is £3 16s., giving a cost per house of 15s. 2d. per annum, or, including interest, 3½d. per week. I am not saying it is too high or too low. That is all there is in it, and even if it could be knocked down to 3¼d. or 3d. I, for one, would not allow that figure to stand in the way of making what immediate preparations I can to get some kind of large scale housing development.
  The hon. Member also referred to what might happen in the lowering of standards of these emergency houses. I put this to him—that he would do better to take to himself the advice he gave to the Minister, to wait. He will not have to wait long. In about another month we shall see the prototype house which the Ministry of Works have, after long negotiations and adaptations and discussions with various sections of the building industry, been able to prepare as their recommended type of emergency house. I believe that this will be ready for inspection by Members of this House, in London, in about a month's time. I have seen the first attempt. I have been inside that house, which struck me as splendid. The gadgets, the health conditions—everything is splendid. I thought some improvements could be made to the outside appearance, and I believe

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  the Minister is making them. I would strongly urge the hon. Member whose experience and knowledge of this problem is very great indeed, to await its inspection before he decides to criticise. If it be the case that these emergency houses can be rushed up at great speed—this is the point—then there will be a very considerable augmentation of the programme of which my right hon. Friend gave figures this morning. In my view, therefore, it is of the highest importance that we should use what labour force we have to secure the erection at the earliest possible moment of decent sanitary accommodation for our people.
  I will accept a great deal of what the hon. Member said about standards, but I do not accept it all. I think that if we can ensure, at all events, hot and cold water, separate sanitary conveniences, a bath, decent air space, living space and, provided that the accommodation is limited to tenure of occupancy by licence, provided that all these houses are owned by the community for that licensed period, then I am sure that the hon. Member will do the cause which he has so much at heart the very greatest service, if he will aid and encourage the early provision of the maximum number of these houses. What is the limiting condition to housing?
  Sir H. Holdsworth: What is it?
  Mr. Johnston: It is labour. It is not money. We can deal with that at other times and in another way.
  Viscountess Astor: The re-organisation of Plymouth depends entirely upon the power to acquire land.
  Mr. Johnston: It is only shortage of labour. What was the position pre-war?
  Earl Winterton: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman a friendly question? Surely he cannot contend that the question of the future attitude of Parliament towards land in built-up areas, such as Plymouth, is not the most considerable factor in the situation at this moment? Surely the Legislature must decide before we take action?
  Mr. Johnston: I intended to come to that point in a moment but in case the limitation of time prevents me I will try to deal
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  with it now. His Majesty's Gracious Speech, at the opening of this Session, contained the words:
  "You will be invited to pass legislation conferring special powers for the re-development of areas which, by reason of enemy action, overcrowding or otherwise, need to be re-planned as a whole. My Government will lay before you the results of their examination of the reports which have been made recommending the assumption of further powers to control and direct the use of the land of Great Britain."
  Viscountess Astor: Was that in 1941?
  Mr. Johnston: The Speech I hold in my hand was made in 1943.
  Viscountess Astor: But is it not true that Lord Reith said that in 1941?
  Mr. Johnston: I do not know what he said, or what Mr. Gladstone said; I am dealing with the King's Speech and with the pledge of His Majesty's Government. That pledge stands. Legislation will be introduced in conformity with that pledge but I submit that it does not arise on this discussion to-day. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] We were not asked to come to this House to-day with our proposals about the Uthwatt Report; we were not asked to come forward to-day with our proposals about the Barlow Report. We were asked specifically in this House to have a discussion on housing, arising out of a statement which was made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Health recently.
  Mr. Molson: As far back as the time of the King's Speech the Government made a promise that they would introduce legislation to deal with this matter on comprehensive lines. The point of the criticisms which have been made, and to which we would like an answer, is that it is putting the cart before the horse to deal with this on piecemeal lines, when there is a promise of comprehensive legislation.
  Mr. Johnston: I am trying to make the point that the pledge has been made and will be kept. What we decided to do was to see whether we should deal with the mass servicing of sites, have negotiations with local authorities and get what we could now until legislation following the Government's promises on the Uthwatt Report, the Barlow Report, re-development and the rest of it had been implemented. The hon. Member thinks we are putting the cart before the horse. [HON. MEMBERS:

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  "Hear, hear."] Well, we think otherwise. We think that the local authorities, so far as we have contacted them, will agree with us. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I said so far as we have contacted them.
  Sir H. Holdsworth: The local authorities have been pressing this matter for many months. I happen to be vice-president of the Association of Municipal Corporation and I know their attitude.
  Viscountess Astor: Is it not true that until the Government take these major decisions it will mean delaying the provision of houses?
  Mr. Johnston: I beg for a little courtesy.
  Mr. Buchanan: It is a Coalition Government; let us have a little coalition.
  Mr. Johnston: The point I am endeavouring to put, under conditions of some difficulty, is that in our judgment we decided, and we think rightly—and the Association of Local Authorities in Scotland think rightly, for I have discussed it with them—that we should, immediately, set about using the opportunities which will come to us this or next month, in the labour force which will be available for the mass servicing of sites; that we should not allow it to be dispersed and that we should not await legislation on the Uthwatt and Barlow Reports or anything else. The hon. Member for South Bradford (Sir H. Holdsworth) said that he wanted to await Barlow and the location of industry. I disagree entirely. I do not desire to await decisions about the location of industry.
  Sir H. Holdsworth: That is not what I said.
  Mr. Johnston: I beg the hon. Member to believe that that is how he will be reported to-morrow. This is a matter of considerable importance. If we had allowed the dispersal of this force nine-tenths of the Members of this House would have risen and shouted epithets at us and said, "You are ill stewards and have failed in your duty." We decided that we would not allow that chance to go. We have discussed with the local authorities the question of the mass servicing of the sites, and a large number of the major local authorities are in entire agreement with us—Glasgow, for example. This is
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  the first step we have to take. It meant taking the land and clearing the land. It meant doing it now, without waiting precise definitions and decision about Uthwatt, Barlow and the rest.
  Mr. McKinlay: My right hon. Friend will agree that it is the labour force we want?
  Mr. Johnston: It is the labour force you will get.
  Mr. Buchanan: We do not want to pay excess prices for the land.
  Mr. Johnston: You are not in Glasgow; you are getting it very cheap.
  Viscountess Astor: What about England?
  Mr. Johnston: May I say a further word about the emergency type of houses? We have been exploring, with the Swedish authorities, the question of the provision of timber houses. We are exploring also with the Canadian Government the question of timber houses. Experiments are being made about steel houses. Alterations and adaptations of war-time hostels are being made. One has been highly successful outside Glasgow at a cost of £206 per house—very much cheaper than the figure quoted earlier. There are any number of other possible adaptations, and I will cheerfully do my best to facilitate all of them. Like the hon. Gentleman, I would not allow any previous theories of mine to stand in the way of the immediate provision of some kind of decent sanitary dwellings. The needs are great, and the announcement by the Government in the House last week that we were in favour of producing legislation to amend the law regarding subsidies, so that they will be widened for general needs and not confined, as they are now, to the provision of houses to replace slums or overcrowded houses, will, I think, commend itself to all sections of the House. Hundreds and thousands of the troops will come back expecting to get a decent home. The young fellows cannot get a decent home if the subsidies are confined to the provision of houses to replace slums or overcrowding. Therefore, the Government have decided to promote legislation to widen the subsidy arrangements.
  Sir H. Holdsworth: Is the right hon. Gentleman going to say anything about private enterprise?
  Mr. Johnston: I understood that the point about private enterprise had been pretty fully and reasonably put in the statement that private builders and contractors will certainly be employed and used as sub-contractors during this two-year programme. I do not pretend to see a long distant future. I cannot see it. What we are dealing with here is the immediate programme for two years' provision of houses. If there are theories about private enterprise, I am not going to quarrel with them. I say, let them fit themselves into this proposal for the mass servicing of sites, the mass provision of houses and the greatest possible production of houses. More than that, I do not think it is possible for any Government honestly to say at this juncture. We have still very difficult months ahead of us, and I. submit that we are taking the only steps possible to us, to prepare the way for the large programme of housing—
  Mr. McKinlay: Will the new subsidy conditions be as indicated by the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom) and be retro-active for the authorities who are building now so that the subsidies will apply to houses completed during the war?
  Mr. Johnston: We hope to enter into discussions with the local authorities. There are two or three options that they may have. One is that they defer the question of the rate of the subsidy until prices are more accurately ascertained and stabilised. There were cases two months ago when we were presented with tenders for £1,650 per house.
  Mr. George Griffiths: Private enterprise.
  Mr. Johnston: They were by private enterprise. They compared with tenders for £950 in neighbouring counties, and we would not agree to them. They would mean inflation and a repetition of the disasters that befell the housing programme under the Addison Act, and we were not in favour of them.
  Earl Winterton: As I asked for this Debate, and have not taken part in it, I should like to make one observation. We are most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his speech, but I want to say to
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  him and to the Government, that no Government will survive for long if they come before the House with such an inadequate policy as they have presented to-day.
  Viscountess Astor: Can the Minister give any answer to the mayors and corporations of the blitzed towns?
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved:
  "That this House, being concerned at the hardship caused by the stoppage of house building during the war and recognising the urgent need to provide for families without homes of their own, is of the opinion that all possible steps should be taken, consistent with the paramount needs of the war effort, to enable house building to be resumed at the earliest moment."

  RAILWAY TRAINS (LOCKED DOORS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain McEwen.]
  Mr. Tinker: I put a Question down a few weeks ago to the Ministry of War Transport about an accident which took place on the London-Manchester express on 6th February. It was rather a serious thing, and it might have been worse but for one or two unusual circumstances. I received a letter from one of my constituents who happened to be on the train, and I passed the letter on to the Minister, for him to make inquiries into it. It was a well-written letter, and I think I ought to read it to the House. It was dated 8th February, two days after the accident, and it reads as follows:
  "You have probably noticed an account of a fire on Sunday last on the London-Manchester express. I was on this train in the coach immediately behind that in which the fire started. I had, with others, to quit the coach hurriedly, for smoke was pouring into it. I passed through the next coach, but further progress to the rear was stopped, as the door which is adjoining the first-class compartment was locked. Congestion at this point was avoided by passengers jumping out on to the track, and there was no serious danger. The locked door caused much annoyance. It was subsequently opened, too late to be of any use. I think it must be evident, to anyone as near to the burning coach as I was, that we owe our immunity to the fact that the number of passengers in the first coaches was comparatively few, for these days. Had these coaches been full, the tale would have been very much different.
  "From Servicemen who gave assistance, there can be no doubt that locked doors, again protecting first-class passengers, were respon-

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  sible in a great measure, if not wholly, for the casualties that did occur. I have written to you in the hope that if you think you can take any useful action you will do so. It does seem to me that some protest should be made by those who realise how near to danger we were and how materially that danger would have been increased if the train had been full. The locked doors which stopped progress down the train might have become a death-trap."
  It is evident to most of us who travel regularly that the locked door is becoming a source of danger. I do not care who it is that travels some distance, he will find at some part of the train a locked door, stopping communication between one part of the train and another.
  Colonel Sir Joseph Nall: Suppose there is no corridor?
  Mr. Tinker: Something should be done about this matter to see whether the danger can be avoided. It should be made public what doors aught to be locked. I had recent experience of this matter travelling up from Liverpool. I wanted to get into a first-class compartment, hut it was locked. I saw a porter and he unlocked it. When I got in he locked it again. I protested, but he said: "If I do not lock the door, other people will get in, and I shall have trouble to get them out." I had the thought in my mind that when I got to the next station the door might not be unlocked. I asked him to unlock the door and chance whether anyone got in. He did so. I have been on stations when trains have come in and passengers have been clamouring and making a row because doors were locked. It seems to me to be altogether wrong.
  On Saturday last I had a similar experience. I was travelling from Manchester to St. Helens. I got into the end part of the train, into a third-class compartment. The train was a long one and it had to draw up at several stations twice. At one station it did not draw up twice. The guard came along saying, "Anyone wanting to get out make for the front of the train" I thought I would make for the front of the train. As I went along I came to a locked door. I was rather anxious as to what would happen when the train got to St. Helens. The carriage I was in stopped just short of the platform on the slope. Many more people had followed me and they began to clamber out and had to drop about a yard. I followed the rest. I do not know
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  whether it was right. But here was an example, in my own experience, of the locked corridor door. The question I want to put to the Minister is whether, at a time like this, we could not have a proviso that no doors at all should be locked. There seems to be some trouble about first-class passengers not getting their seats unless the doors are locked, that is, that first-class ticket-holders will not get their seats.
  Mr. Bartle Bull: Surely, the only way to get a first-class seat is to hold a first-class ticket?
  Mr. Tinker: That may be so, but at a time like this, when trains are overcrowded and someone has to stand, is it too much to ask first-class passengers to take their turn?
  Mr. Bull: Then abolish first-class compartments. Do either one thing or the other.
  Mr. Tinker: We are in agreement on that. It is something I have been leading up to.
  Mr. Bull: Go straight for it.
  Mr. Tinker: I am putting to the Minister the danger and inconvenience caused by locked doors on trains. Why not have no locked doors and let everyone take their chance? It would be far better. I put it seriously, can he see his way to issue an order that no doors be locked either on corridor trains or non-corridor trains, and let us see how that works? If he cannot do that will he have a notice put up on doors that have to be locked saying that they have to be locked for a special purpose so that we know that it is an order? As the position is now we do not know whether it is done at the whim or the caprice of some official who has some friends coming, first-class passengers, to prevent someone else from getting their seats. No one seems to know the order. In the case I have mentioned it seems that those responsible had no right to lock the doors. Some action should be taken against those people. That is what I want to clear up to-day.
  I want the Minister to make it definitely known what power the railway companies have to lock doors. If they have power let it be known what doors shall be locked. Then, when we are standing on the platform, we shall not be wondering who is attempting to do this thing and challeng-

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  ing railway officials. That kind of thing is happening every time we travel by train. I want to remove that. The Minister has a big task here. If accidents happen and deaths occur, who is responsible? Is the man who has locked the door to be responsible, or the Minister who gives the order for locking the door? Fatalities could easily happen. On this express from London to Manchester there were only six casualties, none serious, but there might have been six deaths. Luckily the fire was seen and everyone was able to get out. It is our duty to stop this kind of thing. I call upon the Minister to make the position clear, and, if possible, to prevent any doors being locked.
  Mr. Tom Brown: In the first place I want the Minister to understand that I am not making an attack on him, on his Department, or even on some of the railway officials; some of them play their parts with magnificent courage and with very sweet tolerance. What we expect to-day, with all the difficulties which the war strain has thrown upon us, is a more accommodating spirit, not only from the railway companies but from the travelling public. Let us frankly admit that the Ministry of War Transport have done, and are doing, a splendid job of work, with limited rolling-stock, limited personnel, and the thousand and one difficulties that war conditions have thrown up. These difficulties have to be dealt with, but I personally desire that, in dealing with them, some consideration should be given—not for my own comfort, but for that of the travelling public—to the people who travel, and especially to the members of His Majesty's Forces. If there are any who deserve comfort and accommodation, it is the troops, who experience so much discomfort in other aspects of their life. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of War Transport said a few weeks ago, in this House, in answer to a question, that 80 per cent, of the people travelling to-day were members of the Forces. The locking of carriage doors, whether interior or exterior doors, creates added danger and added discomfort. One thing of which we can be sure is that at the port of embarkation for foreign service the doors of the carriages will not be locked—I say that in no sarcastic sense.
  May I tell what I myself saw a few days ago, when travelling from London
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  to the North? A train drew in at one of the Midland stations. Immediately the train stropped there was a rush by the troops for the carriage doors. I saw a man with a gold braid band round his cap—I presume that he was the assistant stationmaster or somebody else in authority—deliberately go to the carriage doors and lock them. The troops, scurrying from one end, of the platform to the other, could not get into that train at all. They tried the carriage door which had been locked. Eventually, when the train was on the point of starting, one of the men had to clamber through the carriage window to get his seat. There was that added danger. He knew that that was a violation of the regulations. Immediately he had got through the carriage window, another very humble servant of the railway company came along and unlocked the carriage door, and the remaining four members of His Majesty's Forces walked into the carriage. But that was not the end of it. At once the man who had locked the door had the audacity to take the name and address of the sailor who had got through the window, though he was himself responsible for that man's violation of the regulations.
  Mr. Bull: Does the hon. Member mean that he locked all the doors of the coach, or just one compartment?
  Mr. Brown: I mean what I say. He locked every compartment in the first-class carriage from one end of the carriage to the other.
  Mr. Bull: There are very few first-class coaches on any trains now.
  Mr. Brown: There was on this train, because I was sitting in it myself. What I want to stress is that if that railway servant had had the common courtesy to accommodate those troops, then that charge which was brought against that man would never have taken place. I went to the sailor myself and asked him what was the trouble, and he said "I was in duty bound to get through the carriage window in order to catch my train to get the boat at Stranraer."
  Mr. Bull: Well, he could have gone through another one.
  Mr. Brown: He could not get in. I hope the hon. Member opposite will not interject in that manner. I witnessed this a few weeks ago. I am pleading,

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  along with the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker), that something should be done in order to assist not only the travelling troops and the travelling public but the railway servants in carrying out their duties, which are very great at the present moment. Only last Friday, travelling from London to the North, I actually saw men who could not get into a first-class carriage, where there was accommodation, because the doors' were locked, and they had to undertake their journey from Euston to Wigan sitting on the luggage rack. If there is anything that grieves in these days it is to see members of His Majesty's Forces, maybe coming home on leave, sitting on racks when they ought to be provided with proper accommodation. That could have been avoided last Friday, and I am asking that steps should be taken, on the lines suggested by the hon. Member for Leigh, to see that, where carriage doors have to be locked for certain purposes, notices should be posted to relieve railway officials of the responsibility.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker): I am very grateful to the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) for raising this matter to-day. It certainly deserves discussion, and I hope that what I have to say will remove some misapprehensions which there may be. I am very grateful for the moderation and courtesy with which he puts his case, which the House appreciates very highly.
  Let me deal first with the facts about the train to Manchester on 6th February, which first drew the attention of my hon. Friend to the locked doors. On that train, the 10.15 from Euston, a fire broke out in the second coach behind the engine at Leighton Buzzard. The fire was caused by a cinder from the engine, which ignited the canvas cover of the gangway between the first and second coaches behind the engine. The second coach, which caught fire, was a composite coach, that is to say, it contained both first- and third-class compartments, and the door in the corridor between the first-and third-class compartments was, as my hon. Friend has said, locked. He said the fact that it was locked made it more difficult for passengers to get to the rear of the train and added to the danger of serious results. Moreover, as he said to me in private conversation, and as
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  other hon. Members have pointed out in private conversation with me, there were other doors on the train which were locked, and they have said, what other hon. Members have said outside the House, that no doors should be locked in corridor trains at all; that locking must increase the risk to passengers in case of accident or fire; that, in any case, it prevents the easy movement of passengers from one part of the train to another, and may cause needless overcrowding and discomfort in one part of the train, while there is ample space in another part; that, if these doors are locked in order to protect first-class passengers they ought not to be locked; that it would be wrong in peace-time to lock them, and that, in conditions of war, with heavy traffic, it is doubly wrong to lock them. With that case so stated, very few people would seriously disagree. But, with respect, it is not quite the whole, complete and accurate picture of the case.
  Let me deal first with the doors which which were locked on the Manchester train, which is a very good example. There was a door on the second coach which caught fire, the composite coach, the second behind the engine. That door was in the middle of the coach. The exit in front was blocked by fire and in consequence the passengers could not get to the coach in front and could not move back because the door was locked. What happened? How did they get out? The communication cord was pulled. There were two engines and both engine drivers acted very promptly and brought the train quickly to a stop. The passengers got out through the outer doors of the coach; there were 12 such doors, all of them unlocked. As I have said to my hon. Friend, the door in the corridor ought not to have been locked. It was a breach of the instructions which we have given. Three years ago, in April, 1941, there was a serious accident in the North in which a coach caught fire. The communicating door was locked in a composite coach and six Ampleforth college boys lost their lives. After that the instructions were changed and it was laid down that in no case should the door in the middle of a corridor in a composite coach between first- and third-class compartments ever be locked. Then there was the episode at Leighton Buzzard. I regret it. I have given instructions which, I hope, will ensure that that rule

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  will be rigorously observed in times to come.
  Does that wholly dispose of the safety aspect of the matter? Ought not all doors to be left open against risk of fire? Well, it has never been envisaged that the right system for passengers to escape from a burning coach was by passing right down the train to the rear or the front as the case might be. In fact, as has been pointed out before, there are still in use many passenger coaches which have no corridors. It sometimes happens that you have en route to slip part of a train at its destination and you cannot unlock the doors. Therefore, that system would not be a safeguard. What we always regard as the safety system was exactly what happened in this case. The communication cord should be pulled and the train stopped as rapidly as possible, and the communicating door between the compartments being open, the passengers would always have an exit in order to get down on to the line, and in this case they had many exits. That system, as amended in 1941, and as it is to-day, is really sound. We have never had an accident which has resulted from it. Our inspecting officers are unanimously of opinion that the safety provision it makes is adequate, and in view of their expert knowledge and of the immense trouble with which they make out their reports on accidents and the care with which they do their work, I think the House would be justified in accepting their opinion as decisive.
  I turn to other doors that were locked on the Manchester train. Why were they locked? There were on this train of 17 coaches, five which had brake compartments, what we call luggage vans. Three of them were loaded with passengers' luggage, mails and other valuable goods. The doors were locked. Why? Because the company had no spare guards who could travel in these brake compartments to look after the goods and because, in fact, all the companies are suffering every day grievous losses from the thefts which are taking place on these trains.
  I ask my hon. Friend to consider the scale and the gravity of the thieving which is happening now. Last year the L.M.S. alone had claims against them for £1,000,000 worth of goods which were stolen whilst in their charge, nearly £3,000
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  a day. We know that black market operators are at work. We know that there are highly organised gangs. Only the other day a gang of passenger train thieves were convicted at the Old Bailey and their work in wartime conditions, of course, is very much easier than it is in times of peace. Lack of lighting—the dim irreligious light which we are allowed in the corridors and the brake vans—makes it much easier for them to make away with the goods.
  The reason why these doors were locked was simply that, and I venture to suggest to my hon. Friend that there is no other way in which the passengers' luggage, and these other goods, can be protected except by locking the doors; there is no other way of checking the anti-social activities of these unpatriotic bandits who take advantage of war conditions and the difficulties of the railway staffs. The only doors which were locked on the Manchester train were locked for that reason; not a single door was locked in order to protect the privileges of the first-class passengers. I feel sure my hon. Friends will agree that it was right to lock those doors. I believe I am not overstating it if I say that in nine cases out of ten when doors are locked to-day on trains it is for that reason, to prevent theft. Of course, my hon. Friend is right when he says that the instructions do allow doors to be locked between first and third-class compartments in order to control the movement of third-class passengers into first-class accommodation. That is allowed, and it does happen, but, as I said, it is only in a very small minority of cases. I venture to say with respect that it is right, if you maintain first-class travel at all, to allow it.
  I have not the time to argue the case in favour of retaining first-class travel. I admit that the arguments against in wartime are very strong, but the Government think, and I think, that the arguments in favour of retaining it are even stronger. In any case, the Government have decided that it must be retained and, if it is retained, you must make it possible for the railway staff to do their job. It is hard enough in any case. Does this lead, in fact, to the unequal loading of which I spoke? Do you get great congestion in one part of the train, while there is empty space in another? I do not say that never happens, but I do not think it happens very often. I have to travel a great

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  deal for my sins and I have constantly seen guards and ticket collectors—
  Mr. Bull: Does the hon. Gentleman travel first-class or third-class?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I travel first-class. I constantly see train attendants, ticket collectors and guards asking people to go down the train, instead of standing in the corridor, to places where there are empty seats. Often they go and, of course, the guards always open the doors to pass them through, but sometimes they do not, and I have seen people prefer to stay where they are and stand. I have a letter here from a senior and responsible official, for whose opinion I have great regard, who travelled from Chester to Euston in a third-class coach, in which there were only four passengers. He had a four-place cubicle and table all to himself, while down the train in the luggage vans and the brake compartments and in the corridors, there were many Service people standing in great discomfort. He went and told them to come up to the empty seats, but they said they were all right where they were; they would not bother, and they travelled to Euston like that. That might very well lead my hon. Friends
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  to think this a grievance which must be put right. I think the railway staffs do, whenever they can, distribute the load as equally as possible. I hope I have satisfied my hon. Friend that the safety instructions as they stand are really all right.
  Mr. Tinker: What about putting up a notice about locking the doors?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I was coming to that. I hope I have satisfied my hon. Friend that the safety instructions are all right; that we must really lock the doors of brake compartments to protect the goods against theft, that if you have first-class travel, you must allow the staff sometimes to lock doors, and that they do not always do so by any manner of means. I will consider his practical proposal of putting up notices and see what can be done.
  Mr. Bull: I agree that it is most unpopular to discuss first-class and third-class travel but—
  It being the hour appointed for the adjournment of the House, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

HOUSING
  Demolitions
  Demolitions
  Post-War Houses (Standardised Fittings)
  Post-War Houses (Standardised Fittings)
  WAR PRODUCTION (MESSRS, DESOUTTER, LIMITED)
  WAR PRODUCTION (MESSRS, DESOUTTER, LIMITED)
  ECONOMIC WARFARE (SULZER BROTHERS, WINTERTHUR)
  ECONOMIC WARFARE (SULZER BROTHERS, WINTERTHUR)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Alarm, Clocks
  Alarm, Clocks
  Civilian Rubber-proofed Garments (Coupon Value)
  Civilian Rubber-proofed Garments (Coupon Value)
  Blankets and Bedlinen (Supplies, Cambridge)
  Blankets and Bedlinen (Supplies, Cambridge)
  Wholesalers (Licensing)
  Wholesalers (Licensing)
  MORECAMBE BAY (DEVELOPMENT PLANS)
  MORECAMBE BAY (DEVELOPMENT PLANS)
ETHIOPIA
  Administration and Development (British Aid)
  Administration and Development (British Aid)
  Reserved Areas (Plebiscite)
  Reserved Areas (Plebiscite)
  FIRE WATCHERS (CULTURAL AND RELIGIOUS BUILDINGS)
  FIRE WATCHERS (CULTURAL AND RELIGIOUS BUILDINGS)
  JAMAICA (RAILWAY ACCIDENTS)
  JAMAICA (RAILWAY ACCIDENTS)
PALESTINE
  Citrus Industry (Financial Assistance)
  Citrus Industry (Financial Assistance)
  Constable D. V. Maynard (Injuries)
  Constable D. V. Maynard (Injuries)
  ORANGES (IMPORTS)
  ORANGES (IMPORTS)
  WINES (MEDITERRANEAN EXPORTS)
  WINES (MEDITERRANEAN EXPORTS)
BRITISH ARMY
  Pay Issues (Restrictions)
  Pay Issues (Restrictions)
  Army Welfare Western Command (Hostel)
  Army Welfare Western Command (Hostel)
  Civil Trials of Soldiers (Officers' Attendance)
  Civil Trials of Soldiers (Officers' Attendance)
  Paymasters (Promotion and Pay)
  Paymasters (Promotion and Pay)
AGRICULTURE
  Sheep Rescues (Snowdrifts)
  Sheep Rescues (Snowdrifts)
  Agricultural Organiser, East Suffolk
  Agricultural Organiser, East Suffolk
  SCRAP METAL (SCHOOL RAILINGS)
  SCRAP METAL (SCHOOL RAILINGS)
  BRITISH COLONIES (OIL BEARING STRATA)
  BRITISH COLONIES (OIL BEARING STRATA)
  CRYSTAL PALACE SITE (PLANNING)
  CRYSTAL PALACE SITE (PLANNING)
  FIJI SUGAR INDUSTRY (INQUIRY)
  FIJI SUGAR INDUSTRY (INQUIRY)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Overseas Disinvestment
  Overseas Disinvestment
  Income Tax (Services Personnel, Reliefs)
  Income Tax (Services Personnel, Reliefs)
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Vaccination and Inoculation
  Vaccination and Inoculation
  Bombing Aircraft (Losses)
  Bombing Aircraft (Losses)
  POSTAL, TELEPHONE AND TELEGRAPH FACILITIES (GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS)
  POSTAL, TELEPHONE AND TELEGRAPH FACILITIES (GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS)
  CHEMICAL INDUSTRY WORKERS
  CHEMICAL INDUSTRY WORKERS
Preamble
The House met, The Lord STANMORE on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
  YORKSHIRE REGISTRIES (WEST RIDING) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed.
  INDIA (ATTACHMENT OF STATES) BILL. [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with an Amendment.
  BECKETT HOSPITAL AND DISPENSARY, BARNSLEY BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.

  FOOD FOR ENEMY-OCCUPIED COUNTRIES.
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government, whether they have any information to give concerning the supply of food for the peoples of enemy-occupied countries, particularly Greece and Belgium; and to move for Papers. The most reverend Primate said: My Lords, I rise to ask the question which stands in my name on the Notice Paper and to move for Papers. I should like in preface to say that I think the importance of our considering these matters is by no means limited to the particular response which the spokesman of the Government may find himself obliged to make. It is of the utmost importance that we should here give expression to the feelings of sympathy which exist very widely throughout the country and thereby to some extent, by keeping our attention directed to the sufferings of other peoples in the world, keep alive our own capacity for sympathy. One of the great perils in a time like this is that of necessity men's sensitiveness to horror becomes rather dulled. We read day by day of such appalling occurrences that if we had the same sensitiveness now as we
  30
  should have had concerning any one of them in the days of peace, life would be unendurable. And so there is no doubt a certain merciful Providence that arranges for this hardening of our sensibilities. But there is also in that a great danger, and especially for people like ourselves who, throughout the war, have been provided with the necessities of life in a most amazing degree, and who are perpetually grateful to the organization which has secured our being so well fed. We are under an obligation to turn our minds to those who, having the same enemies as ourselves, are suffering from that enmity in an altogether different fashion, and to let them know that we feel for them and are deeply concerned about their welfare.
  So my concern is partly to express these feelings in order that, by expression, they may be kept alive in us, and that we may avert that horrible state of things described in the line of Shakespeare, which haunts me every now and then in these days:
  "All pity choked by custom of fell deeds."
  The concern is very widespread. The letters that I have received since this question was put upon the Paper and the telegrams that have reached me yesterday and to-day from all parts of the country, show that there is a very deep and widespread concern, as indeed there ought to be, about this; not I think for the most part in any way condemning the Government, but only eager that we should press for the utmost to be done that can be done without damage to the war effort. And I am happy to know that the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, himself welcomes the putting down of this question, partly in order that the subject may be ventilated but partly in order also that the Government may have an opportunity of making their own statement with regard to the matter, their own policy and their anticipations concerning it.
  Now we all agree that the chief way in which we can help the people who are suffering under German oppression is to win the war as quickly as possible. That is common at the back of all our minds, and therefore none of us desires any step to be taken that could in fact have the result of delaying our victory in the war. But we are concerned about what is happening in the meanwhile. The state of malnutrition in many of the

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  countries occupied by the Germans is becoming very grievous. I am not going to enter upon that field. My noble friend Lord Horder is going to follow on that subject later, and will speak obviously with the highest possible authority on the basis of the information that is available. We are confronted with a real tragedy over a vast area, of which the effects will be apparent long after the war has ceased. The actual death-roll is becoming very high. The incidence of disease shows how much resistance is being weakened, and there is a prospect in the future of a German nation with citizens fully nourished, strong, and vigorous, surrounded by neighbours whose physical vigour and perhaps nervous stability and even moral constancy have been undermined by the malnutrition they are suffering in these days.
  Everyone will agree that whatever can be done without danger to the war effort, without danger of postponing our victory, should be undertaken. The point we want to ask is precisely whether there are not some steps that could be taken without any of these dangers. I shall only mention three countries. They are those which have been specially in our minds at earlier times when the subject has been brought forward. The suffering in Greece was quite appalling, and a great deal of help was given. We have set the principle, at any rate, of the possibility of giving help to enemy-occupied territory by what was done for the people of Greece, where it is likely that the lives of something like 2,000,000 people were saved by what was undertaken. The process has been continued, the relief is still being brought in, and I believe—the noble Earl will tell us—the evidence is still good that what has been supplied has reached the people for whom it was intended and that what else they might have received under the German regulations has not been diminished. That that is so is certainly stated by those mainly responsible for the administration. Another country that has been very prominently before our thoughts is Belgium, where, no doubt, the able-bodied men have been fed by the occupying Power in order that they may be able to work; but the suffering among women and children has been very great, especially in the country districts, where it is seen that the scheme of distribution works much less well than
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  in the towns, or perhaps there are fewer there whose labour is required and so less care is taken about it.
  The proposal that has been put forward in the past, and which I venture to mention once more, is not that we should try in any measure to supply what we regard as adequate to feed these unhappy people, but that we should supply what could fairly be regarded as their medical requirements for the mere prevention of serious deterioration of health in the present and in the future. The special suggestions were for the supply of vitamin tablets and dried milk. The total tonnage wanted for each of the two nations mentioned—Greece and Belgium—was 22,000 tons annually. We have been assured that there is neutral shipping unable to be employed now but available for use in this connexion, so that no shipping may be taken away from what is required for the purposes of the war. If that is so, then apart from some other considerations that may be brought forward, and which are not present in my mind, it would seem reasonable to urge that this shipping should be employed in order to make available a supply of vitamins and dried milk for these people. I confess I do not quite know what the position is at present with regard to vitamins except that I understand they are treated as medical supplies and that it is in principle, therefore, possible to obtain navicerts to pass them through, whereas dried milk is treated as food. But where what is suggested is a very small supply of what is essential, not for fullness of physical vigour but to avoid radical deterioration of physical health, it would seem to us reasonable that that also should count as medical supplies. In other words, our proposition is not that the blockade itself should be weakened in principle at all, but that this one article or these two articles if necessary should be entered on the medical list and so be regarded and admitted in limited quantities.
  In view of the facts that have recently been pressed upon me, I must say something about at least one other country. We all know that that country—Polandhas suffered as perhaps no other has through the German tyranny. It is plainly the hardest of all for us to help otherwise than by winning the war, but even here it might be possible to arrange—if the

  33
  materials were forthcoming and the shipping were available—for the ships to pass through. It would have to be under similar arrangements as for Greece, arid German consent would be necessary. What is happening in Poland in this respect would seem to be that children up to the age of three are being tolerably well fed. They are being fed up to that age precisely because it is thought that they are unable to realize that they are Polish children and that They can be removed in a state of physical vigour and promise to centres where they are then Germanized. They are, in fact, being kept in life and vigour in order that they may be German citizens in future. How far any such hopes can in fact be realized, how far the knowledge of their origin can be kept from them permanently, I do not know, but that they should be maintained for such a purpose only throws into relief the horror of the treatment of the rest of the population.
  We have witnessed in Poland also that where any food is supplied it does reach those who are concerned. The Polish General Welfare Council has not been closed down, as one might have anticipated, but is still at work and active, and so are sonic branches of the Polish Red Cross. From all the countries from which we get evidence the testimony is unanimous, first, that the goods supplied do reach the people for whom they are intended—they are not confiscated for the benefit of the Germans—and the supply to them under the German system is not reduced in any way to match. In other words, the food does go to those for whom it is desirel. The question may be raised whether, if the scale of operations be extended, that can still be ensured. I see no way of answering that question except by trying by those who are responsible, and especially the authorities of the international Red Cross. They believe it can be done. In any case it would possible to reduce any damage that resulted within negligible proportions by the determination that the supply should immediately be stopped if we found that it was in the smallest degree abused.
  So then, if I may trouble your Lordships with a very few figures, let us just see the vast scale of this horror. No doubt the scale is itself one of the reasons which makes the authorities hesitate to take action at all. Yet I would venture to
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  suggest that to do even a little in this field, however far it is from meeting the real need, is better than to do nothing. There are in Greece something like 1,800,000 children (it is nearly 1,900,000) in want of swift help. There are in Holland about 300,000 children in similar need. I have not the figures from Norway but I doubt not they are very large. In Poland there are no fewer than 3,500,000 children in such want; in Czechoslovakia 1,600,000; in Yugoslavia 2,100,000. Those figures are limited to young children; that is to say to children at a time of life when malnutrition is likely to have a permanent effect in damaging their physique and, it may be, also their nervous stability and with it their moral stability. It is the future of a population of a continent that is involved. The very scale of it, as I have said, seems to supply a reason why we scarcely dare to undertake any remedy at all, and yet I would still plead that, however true that may be, to do all that we can do for even a small proportion of these children, even if it spells disappointment for others, is better than inactivity.
  If, briefly, I may put together the points on which I wish to ask that we may have an answer, they are these. And I may say I know perfectly well that the spokesman of the Government feels all these points every bit as acutely as I do and that his sympathy is with us absolutely to the full. First, then, the Germans have not so far taken food by reducing the other supplies. Secondly, neutral shipping, at least up to a considerable amount, is said to be obtainable, which would not therefore reduce the shipping supplies needed and available for the war effort. Thirdly, a point I have not yet mentioned, it would seem suitable that we should make the most generous response we can to the unanimous Resolution of the Senate in the United States of America, asking the State Department there to work out in conjunction with this country, Sweden and Switzerland, a system for moving food supplies to the people of Belgium, Norway, Poland, the Netherlands, Greece and Yugoslavia. I do not know, of course, what the State Department has found itself able as yet to set on foot in that direction, but I only trust that so far as possibility permits we may do our utmost to co-operate with it in meeting a most clamorous need that makes the strongest possible appeal to our sympathy. As I have said, I know that the Minister of Economic Warfare shares

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  our feelings, but I think it is our duty in such a case to urge the claim of compassion to the very utmost in the hope that action may result, even though it is bound to be inadequate to the greatness of the need, and also as a proof that we are not unmindful of the suffering of those who with us are facing the tyranny of a common foe. I beg leave to move.
  LORD HORDER: My Lords, it is true, as the right reverend Primate has informed your Lordships, that I have taken some pains to sift the evidence as far as possible on the medical situation in regard to the food position in enemy-occupied countries. I have had the benefit of help from colleagues and I would like especially to mention the help of Professor Young. I think it is a fact that in the past some rather wild statements have been made relative to famine and hunger conditions. Famine is not a matter concerning which medical investigation can throw light; famine either kills or it is relieved. Prolonged undernourishment is a much more serious medical problem than famine because prolonged under-nourishment leads to diseases of low resistance, the chief one of which, as your Lordships know, is tuberculosis, and to a state of affairs in a race or in a nation which finds its remedy, not in that generation, nor even in the next, but possibly in the third generation. His Majesty's Government may of course have information more recent and possibly even more authentic than the information I propose to give to your Lordships. It is even possible that the more recent information, if the Government possess it, may be of such a nature as to relieve the anxiety which the most reverend Primate has mentioned and which is stirring the minds and hearts of many people in this country. I hope it may be so.
  Our evidence, if I may say so, has been brought to us through three sources. The first source is a small one but important. It is the clinical examination of such refugees as have reached this country or reached Lisbon, a neutral port, during the last few months. Then we have some knowledge as to the value in terms of nutrition of the basic daily ration in enemy-occupied countries. From that we are able to calculate fairly nearly the degree of health which is obtainable in people living upon that allowed quantity
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  of food. Thirdly, we have some reports, not many, of conditions in those countries upon which—such is the prestige and the expert experience of the rapporteurs—we can rely. About refugees I have little to say. They are few, and it is of course obvious that they are not amongst the poorest and certainly not amongst the least robust in the countries from which they escape. Were they poor and lacking in some degree of vitality they would not be refugees. But even they, as recently as August last year, showed conditions which we recognize quite clearly as being only produced by prolonged malnutrition, including one which is a rather striking and in this country quite rare clinical observation—what we term hunger œdema, that is, hunger dropsy.
  As to the calory value of the basic ration, we have the best information from Belgium. It is in respect of Belgium, I may say, that most of our convincingly reliable information comes. In September of last year the basic daily ration in Belgium was about 1,260 calories. We usually consider that the calory value of a day's food required for health is 2,480. That is a figure that most of us accept. Therefore the value of the basic daily ration in Belgium was just over half of the minimum required for health, and was about half of the ration in Belgium during the war of 1914–18. The most reverend Primate referred to certain selected groups, such as infants and workers, who received supplements to their basic ration. That is correct, but when we remember the poverty of the people in general and the non-availability of food we see that the calory value in the case of the mass of the people is, as I have mentioned, roughly half at most of that which is necessary to keep a person in health. In France it appears that the calory value at the end of 1943 was considered to be about 1,080, which is even lower than the Belgian. Passing to reports which we really can rely upon, we have had recently a very full and valuable report from Dr. Heymans, a Nobel prize winner and professor in the University of Ghent. So revealing was his report that he was threatened at once by the Nazis and had to escape.
  The condition of the children over six is very important. It is true that under six years the children in Belgium receive supplements. These supplements are withdrawn when the child arrives at the

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  age of six. Adolescents from fourteen to twenty-one form another group in which, growth being at its maximum and development physiologically also being at its maximum, proper nourishment is required. They are suffering most because they are neither infants nor are they engaged in hard work on behalf of the occupying enemy. It is true that an attempt has been made by the Ministry of Agriculture in Belgium and by the International Red Cross to supplement through Lisbon the food of these two groups, but even this additional help leaves the adolescents particularly in a very bad state. Adults, Professor Heynians tells us, from a large investigation on this point at the Liege Polyclinic, have lost between 20 and 30 lb. weight in populated areas, and the estimates of the protein substances in the blood, which are regarded as a very good means of testing malnutrition at the moment, show a fall in a large number of cases investigated of from 20 to 50 per cent. Pregnant women show a drop of 80 per cent. in the normal weight gain which should occur to them during pregnancy. Infants at birth show a drop in weight averaging 2.2 lb. Investigations carried out upon students nurses and hospital personnel reveal an equally striking evidence of malnutrition.
  Then there is the matter of tuberculosis. Tuberculosis in its incidence and perhaps in the severity of particular cases may be regarded, I think, as a very good measure of the state of nutrition in any country or group of people. It is par excellence the disease of lowered resistance. In this matter the position is very serious indeed in Belgium, in France, in Poland and in Greece. In Belgium the number of tuberculosis cases which were receiving supplementary rations on account of the disease rose sharply from 70,000 in December, 1941, to 110,000 in February, 1943. In the fifteen months between December, 1941, and February, 1943, the rise in the incidence of the disease, judged by this evidence, that is by the extra rations allowed to cases of active tuberculosis, was 58.5 per cent. But it is not only the number of cases which is the measure of under-nourishment. The fulminating of many of the cases, Professor Hewmans points out, is another aspect which has the same significance. We used to talk about galloping consumption—galloping consumption meaning
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  the fulminating feature of pulmonary tuberculosis—in this country as, I will not say a rare, but an uncommon disease, as it has been in most European countries for the last two generations. To-day fulminating pulmonary tuberculosis is experienced in Belgium, in France, in Greece, so that a disease which usually, if it is going to kill, takes years or at least months to kill, now frequently in these countries kills a patient in a few weeks. So as I have said, the fact of famine, terrible though that is, is far from being our main concern as doctors. We are concerned, as I have said, with this state of prolonged under-nourishment which leads to diseases like tuberculosis and to states of lowered vitality from which recovery can only occur in generations rather than in a lifetime.
  I have given your Lordships a few facts because I believe them to be true, authentic, credible, but also because there are still some people here who doubt that these cases are as bad as they are stated. They consider folk who have striven to get help to our stricken allies to be enthusiastic dreamers. Well, as a humanist, I am compelled to join with the Archbishop in this appeal that he has made to the Government, not, as he said, to do anything which is impracticable, not to do anything which will ease the situation for the enemy, but still to strain every nerve to see what can be done before these friends of ours find themselves in even greater peril than they are at present. I think that much credit is deserved by the Government for the efforts which they have already made, particularly in Greece. I understand that the Nazis have not prevented the food supplies sent to Greece from reaching the people for whom they were intended. Well, why not try elsewhere? We know the risk, but why not take the risk? The gesture itself, allowing the risk, would be, as the most reverend Primate said, very valuable. It is not, I understand, intended to send large ships with large cargoes of foodstuffs. It is proposed, very modestly, to send certain concentrates—powdered milk, certain vitamins which can, at most, be regarded as first aid nutritional relief.
  VISCOUNT LEVERHULME: My Lords, I do not wish to take up more than a small portion of your time on this occasion. The most reverend Primate has put before us a very clear outline of this

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  grave and difficult problem, and he has referred to the deep and widespread concern which it arouses both here and in the country of our great Ally, the United States of America. The noble Lord, Lord Horder, has spoken with great authority on the medical aspect of the matter, and, quite clearly, it would be an impertinence on my part to attempt to add anything to what he has said. My reason for wishing to add my voice to those of the two previous speakers, is that I have already had occasion to interest myself in this question of food relief in enemy-occupied countries. Last June, the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, very kindly received a deputation, which I had the honour of taking to him, from the Anglo-Belgian Union, of which I have the privilege at the present time of being President. The Anglo-Belgian Union is a society without any political affinities. It is solely concerned in fostering good relationship, understanding and friendship between this country and Belgium. We came away, after our visit to the Minister, if not entirely satisfied at any rate with a clearer perception of all the complexities of the problem.
  The Motion before us is a wide one. It speaks of the peoples of enemy-occupied countries, but it particularizes. It refers especially to Greece and Belgium. If I lay emphasis on Belgium it is not because my sympathies are limited, or because I am unaware that the same problem exists in a great many other parts of the Continent. In the case of Belgium, as we have been reminded, the request is for 2,000 tons a month of powdered milk and vitamins. We are assured, as the most reverend Primate has said, that the necessary supplies can be obtained and that transportation can be provided. I understand that there exists the machinery for distributing the supplies, under medical supervision, to the mothers and children who are so desperately in need of them. His Majesty's Government are only asked to issue the necessary navicerts. If it were found that the first consignment, or any considerable Tart of it, was seized by the enemy and used for his own purposes, further supplies could be stopped. At any rate, our friends in Belgium would know that we had made the attempt. It may not be possible to apply the same kind of scheme to all enemy-occupied countries, but if yon cannot do a good
  40
  turn to all your friends, is that a reason why you should not attempt to help some of them? All these occupied countries are not equally accessible; their circumstances vary. In the case of Belgium, let it be remembered that she is the most tightly-packed country in the world, with over 70o persons per square mile. The figure for Germany, I think, is about half that. Before the war Belgium imported 70 per cent. of her foodstuffs. These figures are an index of her present privations.
  The children in occupied countries are going to be the men and women of those countries in the future. Their health and vigour are going to be vitally affected by what is happening to them now. It should surely be the policy of the United Nations, in the interests of the future peace of the world, to see that, so far as it is in their power to prevent it, the stamina of the populations of countries adjacent to Germany is not, in the years to come, dangerously reduced below the stamina of the German population. In the course of a war circumstances change rapidly and frequently alter completely. Therefore the position now may well be different from what it was last summer. I earnestly trust that His Majesty's Government will again weigh the pros and cons very carefully in the balance and that they will be able to reconsider their previous decision.
  VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: My Lords, the dominant feeling that must be aroused in the mind of every one of your Lordships in listening to the very impressive speeches which we have heard must be wonder at the incredible wickedness of the small knot of Germans who govern Germany in plunging the world into the terrible horrors which we are now enduring. I quite recognize that this question, grave as it is, is only one of the many disastrous consequences of that step. An immensely impressive document was published, I think yesterday, by the Soviet Embassy, explaining that the horrors which have been perpetrated in Russia were not merely the casual horrors of warfare, but were deliberately planned by the German Government before the war began.
  I agree with the most reverend Primate that even if we can bring only a very small remedy to the evils which we are now discussing, and, of course, a still

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  smaller one to the total evils of war, I am sure the Government would be the first to say that that does not release us from the obligation to do everything we can to mitigate the horrors which are so prevalent. The question of whether we ought to do anything, and, if so, what we can do, is an extremely difficult one to answer. The case is very difficult indeed. I speak from personal knowledge gained in the last war, although, of course, I recognize the immense differences between the two wars. I know how tremendously difficult this question is, arid it is particularly difficult because, as so often happens in war, it is extremely difficult to be certain about the conditions of the problem. In this particular case they can scarcely be fully known, and that applies particularly to the conditions which make it difficult or impossible for us to take any steps to remedy the horrors which exist. But, though those thins are doubtful, the want of the children is undoubted. I am not going to attempt to add to what has been said by the most reverend Primate, by the noble Lord, Lord Horder, and by the noble Viscount, Lord Leverhulme. Nobody has ever disputed the case which they have made. There is no doubt that very grave suffering is at this moment being imposed on large sections of the population, and particularly on the children, and that that immediate suffering is but a very small fraction of the ultimate injury which may accrue to them. We shall not know, or even be able to guess, ail the injury which has been done until the war is over and the testing time of sanity arises, so that we can reckon up what it is that the war has destroyed and the evil that the war has done.
  Holding that view, which I am sure is the view of everyone of your Lordships, the answer is quite obvious. It is that by far the most effective remedy for which we can hope is the victory of our Forces and the consequent establishment of peace. Peace is the real answer to all these problems, and I most heartily agree with those who say that it would be an entirely false humanity to postpone even for a day the establishment of peace in order to minister to the terrible wants that exist as a consequence of war. To my mind—I do not know whether I am right—the whole question depends simply on this: Are the remedies proposed by the most reverend Primate—and by others,
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  but we are dealing with his proposals now—going in fact to postpone the re-establishment of peace? I think that that is the crucial question. If we take his advice, are we really going to add to the power of German resistance so that the enemy will be able to go on fighting a little longer and consequently postpone the advent of peace a little longer?
  I fully agree that the answer to that question is very difficult to arrive at, but obviously the Government have far better and fuller information than any of us can have as to the answer which should be given. If my noble friend, when he comes to reply, tells us that he is quite satisfied that any attempt to take such a step as the most reverend Primate has recommended would in fact postpone peace, or would in his belief postpone peace, then as far as I am concerned I should not wish to press the Government an inch further. I do wish very respectfully to say to the Government, however, that they must go as far as that. It is not enough to say that it might possibly do so. After all, risks must be taken in human life. Merely to say that possibly, conceivably, the adoption of anything which would diminish the sufferings of young children might help the Germans in their fight does not seem to me to be enough. That is the view put forward by some people, and, when one hears that said, one would like to ask: "You say that it might postpone peace. Does that mean real postponement, or is it merely a kind of suggestion that it might enable the Germans to go on fighting for another day?" It seems to me that it is on the answer to a question of that kind that the proposals of the most reverend Primate depend. If the answer is that what is proposed might conceivably postpone peace for a very short time, that is not necessarily a complete answer or a complete reason for not taking action immediately in order with certainty to diminish the frightful suffering which is being caused at the present moment. The evil is very certain indeed; let us be quite sure that the danger of the remedy is equally certain before we turn it down altogether.
  I should like to re-echo what was said by the most reverend Primate as to my noble friend's personal attitude in this matter. I have not the slightest doubt that he is as anxious as any one of us can

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  be to diminish the suffering of the children in this matter. I am quite sure he is, as indeed I hope and believe all his colleagues are likewise. I do not want to say anything that could possibly be regarded as offensive or combative, but speaking, if I may, from my own experience, which cannot affect anyone now living, as it refers to a time so long ago, I think there is a danger of being too much affected by official objections to a step of this kind. The natural bias of the official mind, rightly and properly, is against the trying of any experiment, however important and however hopeful a result it may seem to promise. I therefore venture to say that I trust the Government will in this matter act on their own judgment individually, without being too much influenced by official advice upon it.
  I am sure that if they arrive at a conclusion which will be a negative conclusion as far as this Motion is concerned, much as I should regret it and as many others would regret it, I should personally feel that there was nothing further to be said or done, but that no doubt the great probability was that their decision was the right one and that we must accept it, as it will be accepted. The Government would certainly wish to do something, and I only venture to urge the necessity of their being quite convinced that the danger to the war effort of this country against Germany would be seriously imperilled by taking the step mentioned. If they are of that opinion and have put aside the mere argument that there is a vague possibility that it would do so, then we must accept their decision, however disappointing it may be, and hope that the coming of peace will put an end to all these harassing difficulties and decisions.
  THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC WARFARE (THE EARL OF SELBORNE): My Lords, I am grateful to the most reverend Primate for having raised this question, not only on account of the generous way in which he did so, but because it gives me an opportunity of attempting to remove certain misapprehensions which, I have reason to know, are widely held in different parts of the country. I should also like to say that I am glad that it was the most reverend Primate who has raised the question. It
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  is, in particular, his part to bring the policy of His Majesty's Government to the bar of Christian principles and His Majesty's Government have no wish that their policy should be judged by any other standard. But when you are attempting to apply Christian principles in war-time you are faced with a continuous choice of evils, because the whole fact of war is proof of the failure of one party or the other to attain the Christian standard. And therefore the question is not whether the policy of His Majesty's Government is causing evil or not, but whether we are making the choice of the lesser evil. I should like to say that from the moment I took office I approached the question which your Lordships have been debating this afternoon from that angle, and, together with my advisers, have constantly re-examined it from that angle since. And may I say, in answer to my noble relative Lord Cecil of Chelwood, that whatever officials were like in my noble friend's day twenty years ago, I can assure him that my advisers in this matter are neither hidebound nor prejudiced. I can assure him that every change in the situation—and the situation is constantly changing—we try to take into full account, and to see whether it requires some adjustment of the policy of the blockade.
  May I ask your Lordships then to examine the central problem with which we are faced? In laying it before you I am bound to put the facts and figures in a somewhat dispassionate and cold manner, but I hope I shall not give the impression that I am anxious to minimize the extent of suffering which undoubtedly exists in occupied Europe to-day. In many parts of every occupied country the most dire suffering undoubtedly exists, and that is a terribly true fact that we must never forget. But the governing fact is that since 1940 Germany has controlled by far the greater part of Europe, and with systematic Teutonic thoroughness and power of organization she has been able to pool the food resources of Europe in such a way that she can deliver to every portion of the population in every part of Europe roughly what amount of food she considers to be in her own interest.
  When Europe was overrun by Germany and the blockade was applied, many people seemed to think that Europe would

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  starve to death, but they forgot the fact that before the war Europe was more than 90 per cent. self-sufficient in food supplies. The primary effect of the German control was to divert the channels of trade. The noble Viscount, Lord Leverhulme, reminded your Lordships that Belgium, prior to the war, used to import over 70 per cent. of her food supplies from abroad. How did Belgium pay for these imports? She paid for them by exports across the oceans. Now these exports all go to Germany, and in return Germany is bound to send to Belgium, or cause to be sent to Belgium from other occupied countries, sufficient food supplies to enable Belgian industry to function to the greatest advantage of the German State. Being in this position, Germany is also able to decide how much man-power shall be devoted to agriculture and the growing of food. She has, as a matter of fact, increased be man-power engaged in agriculture by several hundred thousands of people; and if we had not applied the blockade and prevented food coming to Europe, all these people would be serving either in the German Army or in munition factories.
  In applying the blockade we have endeavoured, as far as possible, to mitigate its impact on our unfortunate Allies in the occupied countries. For instance, we have not only allowed but facilitated imports of food from neutral countries within what we call the "blockade area"—that is countries like Spain and Portugal—because these countries are also within the purchasing reach of Germany. By giving exchange facilities and in other ways we have facilitated the dispatch of Portuguese fish, for example, to distressed cases in occupied. countries. Again, we have taken Vitamin D off the contraband list altogether because we felt that that could be done without seriously assisting the enemy, and also because it is a most important vitamin for growing children. We have also made it plain to neutral countries in Europe that if they were willing and able to receive children and other refugees from the occupied countries, Great Britain would make no objection to these neutral countries importing more food in order to sustain these refugees. In this and other ways we have tried to mitigate the effect of the blockade on the unfortunate inhabitants of the occupied territories, but otherwise we have had to enforce the blockade strictly for the reasons I have
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  given, and thereby have forced hundreds of thousands of people away from the German munition factories and army on to agriculture.
  As I have indicated, Germany now has all occupied Europe rationed and organized in her own interests, and is able to send food from one country to another, although both countries may be short of food, and so keep the level of supply at just what height in any country she wishes, just as the Metropolitan Water Board controls the levels of their numerous reservoirs, each at its appropriate level in relation to the amount of water the Board can command. In the case of Greece, the Germans made a calculation and came to the conclusion that they would lose more than they would gain by trying to preserve the economy and life of Greece. They came to the conclusion that it was not worth the extra effort because Greece was a large importer of foodstuffs and had very little to contribute to the German war machine. So they simply let Greece starve with the cold, calculated brutality which is characteristic of them. Sometimes we are reproached with treating Greece differently. It was not we who have treated Greece differently, it was the Germans; I shall speak of what the Allies have tried to do in the case of Greece later on. I ought also to make it plain that the Germans have also treated Poland, Russia, and Yugoslavia differently from the countries in Western Europe, principally because of the savagery of the fighting, the warfare on the Russian Front and on the Polish Front (which has never surrendered, but is continually maintained by the Polish underground army). The same is true of Yugoslavia. This has prevented the Germans from being able to utilize the territories of these countries which they have overrun for the benefit of their war machine in the manner they had expected. Therefore, they have revenged themselves in according them appreciably worse economic treatment than they have meted out to other countries.
  In Western Europe Germany has been engaged in extracting the maximum amount of war effort from the unfortunate people she has conquered while supplying them with the minimum amount of food required for the purpose. It is a mistake to think of Belgium as in a

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  different category in this respect from any of the other countries of Western Europe. In fact, all political boundaries in occupied Europe have temporarily ceased to have any significance. Occupied Europe is one economic unit and is worked by the Germans as such. There are of course within that unit individual differences but they are not differences dictated by political boundaries. There are differences of function. People get greater rations in accordance with their value to the German war machine. There are also the differences between the rich and the poor. But the greatest difference of all is between town and country. However efficient their machine, the Germans do not find it possible to extract as much food as they would like out of the country peasant, and the only respect in which Belgium is in any way different from any other country in Western Europe is that the urban population there is greater than in most other parts of Europe. The people of Lille are just as hungry as the people of Brussels, and indeed there are parts of Europe where hunger conditions according to my information are definitely worse than anything known in Belgium. Therefore I know of no reason why relief should be confined to Belgium, and I am quite sure it is the last thing our gallant Belgian Allies would ask.
  I think it was the most reverend Primate who spoke of the relative difficulty of getting food to Belgium or to Poland. I have had many interviews with beneficent people on this subject and I find there are many people who are under the impression that it is much easier to get food to Belgium than to Poland. That, my Lords, is an entire mistake. You could not send any food to Belgium without permission of the German Government, and if you had permission of the German Government there would be no transport impossibility in sending food to Poland. Therefore it is not true to say that the Belgians are in that respect in any different category. Certainly the conditions in Brussels are better than the conditions that exist in Warsaw.
  The Advisory Medical Council over which my noble friend Lord Horder so ably presides, recently published some very distressing figures about the conditions in Belgium and the noble Lord quoted some of them this afternoon. I am not unfamiliar with those figures
  48
  which are taken from the report issued by Dr. Heymans. That report was published in December, 1942, and referred mainly to the previous twelve months—that is to say, it covered the abnormally hard winter of 1941–42 and the very serious conditions that resulted in the next few months from that winter. Noble Lords will remember that that winter was particularly serious. The frost was so hard that millions of tons of potatoes were frozen in the clamp, the canals were frozen, and even railway engines and trucks would get frozen up at night, so that not only transport by canal but also transport by railway was seriously interfered with. Since then, I am happy to tell your Lordships, there has been some improvement in Belgium. For instance, the bread ration has been increased twice since the last harvest and the quality of the bread is better. The fat ration has also been increased and deliveries are more regular.
  There is one point in the most reverend Primate's speech to which I should like to refer. Other noble Lords also touched upon it. They warned us that the effect of this war may be to leave a Germany inhabited by healthy people whereas the countries that were occupied will be inhabited by emaciated and permanently weakened people. As I said just now, I do not wish to be taken as in any degree minimizing the terrible evils that do undoubtedly exist, but I think it is important that we should preserve a sense of proportion in all these matters. Therefore it is germane to remind your Lordships of what took place as a result of the last war. I can remember, and I am sure my noble friend Lord Cecil, as Minister of Blockade in the last war, will remember, that exactly the same fear was expressed in 1918 and 1919 about German youth. The hunger conditions existing in Germany in 1918 were prob. ably worse than anything existing at any rate in Western Europe to-day. I remember that many people in those days were afraid that one whole generation of the German race would be so emaciated of weakened by that hunger that it would be not until the next generation that Germany could recover. That is the generation of Germans which have fought this war, and I do think it is important to remember that fact because it enables us to hope at any rate that the physical injury to the young people of the

  49
  occupied territories may not be so great as some of us fear. I do not think anyone can say that the present generation of young Germans shows any physical deterioration compared to their fore-fathers.
  But, my Lords, in regard to the statistics given by the noble Lord, Lord Horder, concerning Belgium, I am able to give figures which I certainly find to some extent reassuring. They are the figures of the death-rate in Belgium. They also have the value of enabling us to make some comparison with the conditions of Belgium in this war and in the last war. In 1914 the death-rate per thousand in Belgium was 14.14. By 1918 it had gone up to 20.82. That was a very terrible increase. In 1939 at the beginning of this war it was 13.15, practically the same as it was at the beginning of the last war, and I wall give your Lordships the rate for every year of this war. In 1939 it was 13.15; in 1940 it was 15.08; in 1941 it was 14.37; and in 1942 it was 14.3. For the first half of the year 1943—I have not got the figures for the second half—deaths were at the rate of 13.0 per thousand. Those figures to my mind are remarkable for two reasons. Not only do they show that the death-rate in Belgium is little if any higher than before the outbreak of war, but we must remember also that a very large number of men of military age have been taken out of Belgium into Germany for forced labour. It is not pregnant women and adolescent children of 12 to 14 who have been deported by the Germans. They have deported what ought to be the strongest and healthiest section of the community. Therefore these figures would appear to be better than they really seem at first sight.
  My second comment is that these figures are a great deal better than the figures of the last war, and that in spite of the fact that during the last war there was a vast organization under the auspices of Mr. Hoover administering great quantities of relief in Belgium. General Ludendorff, in a book published after the last war, said that relief had been of considerable benefit to Germany. The figures I have just quoted to your Lordships seem to show that it was of very little benefit to Belgium.
  VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: May I ask whether the noble Earl could tell us where these recent figures he has
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  quoted of the death-rate in Belgium come from? Are they from the existing Belgian Government or from the German Government?
  THE EARL OF SELBORNE: These figures are the figures officially published in Belgium. My Department have no reason to believe that they are faked or that they do not represent the facts. We, of course, have to deal with great masses of figures and returns from all over occupied Europe which reach us in various ways, and we are also in touch with any person who comes from Belgium to this country. Therefore we have to make an estimate as to the reliability of all the figures which reach us. We have no reason to believe that these figures are in any way faked. They do strike me as being very significant. I have also the infantile mortality figures. Unfortunately I have not got them for the last war, but I have figures for some years prior to this war. In 1928 the infantile mortality rate was 87 per thousand, and it very curiously rose in 1929 and 1930, although those were years of great prosperity when the post-war boom was at its highest and before the slump reached Belgium. In 1929 the rate rose to 104 per thousand and in 1930 it was 93 per thousand. By 1939, just before the outbreak of this war, the rate had been reduced to 73 per thousand. It rose sharply in 1940 to 89 per thousand. I do not think that is at all strange when one considers the horrors of the German invasion. In 1941 it fell to 83, in 1942 it fell to 78, and during the first halt of 1943 infantile mortality was at the rate of 80 per thousand. These figures show that infantile mortality is definitely higher than it was just before the war but that the position is better than it was twenty years ago when national hygiene was not as good as it is to-day. I quote these figures merely to try to put the isolated statements which reach us into some perspective. A statement may be perfectly true in itself, but unless you can give it some statistical background it does not give the whole picture.
  For the reasons I have given it is impossible to treat this question of relief on a national basis. I would remind your Lordships that there are Norwegian, French and Dutch sailors in Norwegian, French and Dutch ships, as well as the sailors and ships of other Allies, who

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  are risking their lives every day in bringing food to this country. They are willing, and indeed eager, to do this because they recognize that these islands are the pivot of the resistance to Germany and the base from which their own countries will be liberated. What justification should we have in asking them to risk their lives in bringing food to the exclusion of their own countries to countries which are in no greater straits? Therefore I say that the only possible basis on which a relief scheme could be administered without manifest injustice would be relief to the most necessitous cases irrespective of locality.
  I think the most reverend Primate went some way to recognize that when he concentrated his plea on the nursing mothers and adolescent children. Nursing mothers and children of all ages already get supplementary rations in all occupied Europe, though I quite agree—no one can doubt it after the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Horder—that these supplementary rations, particularly in the case of children of twelve to fourteen, are generally inadequate. But I do assure your Lordships that the administrative difficulties of arranging a relief scheme for these individuals would be very formidable indeed. In the first place no sort of machinery exists for carrying out this work. People talk about the Red Cross, but the International Red Cross was designed for a totally different and much smaller and simpler task, that of transmitting parcels to prisoners of war in properly constituted prisoner of war camps. Outside prisoners of war camps, the International Red Cross is just a voluntary society, and voluntary societies are quite unable to exercise any control in the areas in which they operate.
  I do not think that the difficulties of travel and communication in German-occupied Europe are always fully realized. I would like to give your Lordships one or two cases to illustrate the sort of thing I mean. I recall a case in which a rather important consignment of medical supplies was sent, in 1942, to a certain destination in an occupied country. It was entrusted to the care of a society whose complete integrity and conscientiousness are undoubted. The supplies arrived at their destination in the middle of 1942, but it was not until nearly a year later
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  that we were able to obtain confirmation of the fact, and an inquiry regarding the subsequent distribution of these goods has remained unanswered until the present time. Again, at the end of 1942, a reputable and completely trustworthy society was charged, in another part of Europe, with the distribution of certain supplies which had been admitted through the blockade, but it was not until nine months later that we were able to obtain any account of the way in which the distribution had been carried out. I could quote many more instances to show that it is quite impossible for anybody in England, or in any other country, to control the distribution of food to necessitous cases in the manner which the most reverend Primate seemed to visualize.
  Even if you were able to establish control of the distribution so that the goods really did go to the people for whom they were intended, that would be perfectly valueless unless you could also control the basic ration. If you could not control the basic ration, the Germans, by reducing that basic ration, could nullify the supplementary ration. I gathered from the speech of the most reverend Primate that he was under the impression that the Germans have never reduced rations on account of food being taken into occupied countries from outside. What the most reverend Primate does not seem to take fully into account, is that the basic ration in occupied Europe is constantly fluctuating just as it is in this country. We open our paper, or we listen to the wireless, and we learn that the Minister of Food has reduced the cheese ration, and increased the butter ration, or whatever it is, and that so many points will buy something next month whereas to-day that number of points buys either more or less. That is going on all over occupied Europe just as it is in England, and it is the only way in which controllers can adjust their resources.
  Therefore, it would be impossible to say that the Germans had reduced the basic ration on account of the supplementary ration, but if the most reverend Primate thinks that they would not do it then I very respectfully beg to disagree with him on the point. When we realize how short of food Europe is, when we realize the dangers by which Germany is faced in consequence of the loss of the Ukraine and the peril to her other great granary in

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  Rumania, can any reasonable man doubt that the Germans would avail themselves of the amount of food going into a country in order manipulate the basic ration in such a way that the benefit of the imported food redounded to them rather than to the peoples of the conquered countries? The noble Viscount, Lord Cecil of Chelwood, said it was not enough for us to have hypothetical reasons—suspicions or fears, I think, were the words he used. But this is actually what happened in Belgium in the last war. As I have been able to show your Lordships to-day, there was this vast relief scheme going on for over two years—conducted by Mr. Hoover—in which millions of pounds were spent, and we had General Ludendorff boasting, at the end of the war, that that was of benefit to Germany. Surely the way in which that happened was that less food was sent from Germany to Belgium than would have been sent if those relief supplies had not been going in. That is what I believe in fact occurred, and, as I have been able to show your Lordships, there are vital statistics bearing on this. The death-rate was very much higher under that system than anything which has been experienced in this war. Therefore I say that it is not reasonable to suppose that the Germans would not avail themselves of any considerable quantity of food that was imported in this way. And I think it is very important that people should realize that the quantity of food must be considerable if it is to do any good.
  I am afraid that I have already detained your Lordships longer than I meant to do, but, if I were to trespass that much further on your Lordships' time, I could show you that some of the proposals put forth by the protagonists of relief will not bear mathematical examination. Some of those protagonists in one breath say that the people of such-and-such a country are not getting more than half the number of calories that they require, and in the next breath they say that it is only a question of sending 2,000 tons of foodstuffs a month or something of that sort. If you are going to make any impression on the most necessitous cases in Europe, very large amounts of food will be involved as well as great organization. If that food went into Europe, although those individual people might, and probably would, get those food parcels, the basic ration which they also get from the German authorities would in
  54
  fact have a corresponding amount knocked off it.
  The most reverend Primate referred to the Resolution passed by the Senate of the United States. I hope that everybody who reads that Resolution will do so carefully, because it is a carefully-worded Resolution. Your Lordships will naturally not expect me to comment on a Resolution passed by the Senate of the United States, but I will say that ever since the United States came into the war the United States Government and His. Majesty's Government have been daily collaborating on the policy of blockade, and it is a United Nations policy and not merely the policy of this country.
  The noble Viscount, Lord Leverhulme, said that if any scheme was tried and it was found that advantage was being taken of it by the Germans it would be possible for His Majesty's Government to stop it, It would be technically possible to stop it, and we could do so, but what do your Lordships think the result would be for the people in the occupied countries, who had become entirely dependent on the food which was coming in from abroad? If that were shut off, I have no doubt what the German reaction would be; the Germans would simply allow those people to starve, as they did the people of Greece, and we should then be told, and not without reason, that the last state of that house was worse than the first. I think that it is a most dangerous thought with which to comfort ourselves in this matter.
  In the case of Greece, it has been necessary to erect most elaborate machinery. There is a Swedish-Swiss Relief Commission under the auspices of the International Red Cross, and they are charged with the duty of seeing that the Germans do not steal the produce of the country, and also that certain food supplies come from German-occupied Europe as well as from abroad. The most reverend Primate challenged me to say that the Germans had broken their undertakings with regard to Greece. I must ask him not to press me on that point, but I will say this, that our experience in Greece has not been such as to encourage us to think that a system of control of that kind would be easy to administer in other parts of occupied Europe.
  The most reverend Primate asked me some questions about the food sent to

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  Greece. This, as many of your Lordships know, was originally 15,000 tons a month, but substantial additions have been made since the scheme began, with the result that the total monthly quantities allotted are now between 20,000 and 21,000 tons, and include 600 tons of milk every month, and vitamin concentrates as, well. Since the Greek scheme was started, over 300,000 tons of food have been imported into Greece-300,000 tons for a very small country with a population of 7,000,000. I ask those of your Lordships who think that small quantities of food would suffice to deal with the problem in other parts of Europe to calculate the sort of tonnage which would in fact be involved in attempting to deal with even the most necessitous cases for the whole of Europe.
  This food is very largely the gift of the Canadian and American Governments. It comes in ten Swedish ships specially released for the purpose. The most reverend Primate was quite right in saying that shipping is not a difficulty so long as Sweden is willing to release ships from the Baltic for the purpose. I feel that your Lordships would like to thank the Swedish Government for the invaluable help which they have given to the cause of humanity in this matter. They have organized the whole scheme, and they have never failed us at any turn. Our thanks are also due to the International Red Cross and to the Canadian and American Governments for the generosity which they have shown, and also to the Royal Hellenic Government, without whose initiative and persistence this scheme would never have seen the light of day, and who have readily incurred very heavy financial obligations under it.
  I have endeavoured to give your Lordships a picture of the hunger situation in occupied Europe and of the reasons which have governed the policy of His Majesty's Government in the matter. We have attempted to deal with the facts of the case; not dogma but common sense has been our guide. In so far as we have been able to mitigate the impact of the blockade, we have done so. We have permitted the import of food from neutral countries in the blockade area. We have permitted the import of Vitamin D. We have said that we would facilitate the migration of children to neutral countries. We have also made the great experiment of the
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  food relief scheme for Greece. Any other suggestions that can be made we will always examine with care and sympathy. I do not refuse any request that the most reverend Primate has made, because, as he has pointed out, the situation is constantly changing, and if circumstances ever permit us to mitigate the lot of our Allies without injuring our war effort, we should be very glad to take advantage of those changed circumstances.
  But there is one thing we will not do: we will not do anything that is going to prolong the war. The hunger conditions that prevail in Europe to-day are by no means the worst conditions that prevail. Daily the most appalling atrocities and outrages are being perpetrated—murders, tortures, blackmailing, imprisonments—all have been committed wholesale by the Nazi monster. The annals of history can show nothing worse than the calculated, scientific bestiality which is Hitler's New Order. Let us beware that in trying to save the health of the young people of the occupied territories we do not prolong by a single day the appalling degradations and horrors to which they are subject. Let us also beware lest by prolonging the war we sacrifice the lives of the thousands of young men who, from all the Allied countries, are marching to liberate Europe.
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I should like to express very sincere thanks to the noble Earl for the statement he has made and to say that I think it has been amply worth while to give an occasion for such a statement. It will allay anxieties in many quarters if you show—what members of this House would have known without that being done—how eager are the Government, and the noble Earl himself in particular, to relieve any suffering so far as that can be done compatibly with the maintenance of the war effort at its maximum. The area of agreement between those of us who had spoken before and the noble Earl is very great. I should like to emphasize how closely we are agreed over nine-tenths of the whole subject; and, for the rest, as the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil of Chelwood, said earlier, I shall—as I perforce must—accept his assurance that the Government are watching every opportunity and will take it as soon as it comes. I would only, if I might, offer a few reflections on what

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  he has said, inasmuch as he has kindly indicated that he will consider anything that is put forward.
  I was not greatly consoled by being reminded that those who were under-nourished in Germany at the end of the last war are the vigorous soldiers of Germany to-day, because they are also the hysterical people who made the Nazi movement. I do not think the present German youth is a good advertisement of the moral wholesomeness of what Germany was then going through. But the particular point that I wish urge quite strongly is that when the opportunity comes, if it is not here now, we should, at first at any rate, concentrate on this problem of the mothers and the young children who do affect the future, obviously, in a greater degree than anybody else, ark who can be relieved—so one is assured on medical authority—against the worst damage by a comparatively small amount of relief. It is a great thing that Vitamin D has been struck off the list of contraband, and it will be a great consolation to many people to know that that has happened. If it is possible also to increase the supply of dried milk for those categories it will be a great relief for the future.
  Everybody must recognize that the adequate feeding of the people suffering from under-nourishment throughout Europe now is quite impossible and cannot be contemplated. It is, as the noble Lord, Lord Horder, said, a matter of first-aid relief that we are asking for at the earliest possible moment. I do not think therefore that the Hoover scheme or the use the Germans made of it is at all necessarily a sound analogy. The amount of benefit the Germans could derive from this sort of supply of dried milk in addition to vitamin tablets would at, least be vastly smaller, if they could receive it. But having said that and submitted it for the noble Earl's consideration as the circumstances change, I wish to thank the noble Earl most sincerely for the statement he has made, and I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
  Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

  REORGANIZATION AREAS MEASURE, 1944
  THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON moved to resolve, That in accordance
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  with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Reorganization Areas Measure, 1944, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent. The right reverend Prelate said: My Lords, I have to move that the Reorganization Areas Measure, 1944, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent. When I introduced this Measure into the Church Assembly it took me an hour arid a half to expound its provisions. I could not imagine that your Lordships will wish me to repeat that performance here. Even the summary of the Measure which you will find attached to the Report of the Ecclesiastical Committee takes five closely printed pages, and really cannot be further abbreviated. I must therefore content myself with expressing the general purpose of this Measure, and that call be done very shortly by reading one paragraph of the Appendix to the Report:
  "In many of the large towns and cities which have suffered from attack from the air, the destruction of churches, parish halls, vicarages and other church buildings is very great, and in most of those areas it will not be desirable either to rebuild the churches or to restore the parishes exactly as they were before. In the same areas civil replanning is or will be taking place which may vitally affect the distribution of the population and its density. In these circumstances the church must be able to replan for its own purposes and have machinery to put its plans into effect so that church life may be restarted on a firm basis, with churches and other buildings sited in the right place, and parochial boundaries drawn to fit the new conditions."
  That process, which will begin immediately the war is over, cannot be met at all by small adjustments of parochial boundaries and so forth. A far more drastic treatment is called for. I could tell you of many areas in my own diocese which are so affected. One comes to my mind in which of six contiguous parishes only one of the parish churches stands at all at this moment. I could tell you of another area in which the population after the war, if one can assume that replanning will be carried through, will be reduced by one-half. In such areas all you can do is to take the whole area as a unit and replan it from the start, say which churches you wish to rebuild, where you wish to site them, and what parishes you need to deal with the pastoral supervision of that area adequately. But if you are going to do that, you will have to deal with every kind of consequent

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  detail, ranging from the number of clergy who are to be there employed down to what is to happen to the monuments in the churches which you are not going to rebuild. The Church has no machinery for dealing with such a process at all. Nor should it he expected that it would have, for conditions like these have never existed before.
  This Measure provides the machinery needed for this purpose. It applies only to such areas as I have described, which are certified as Ecclesiastical Reorganization Areas by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. It applies only for a limited time. Such areas have to be defined within seven years, and schemes have to be defined within ten years. But where and while this Measure applies it is both comprehensive and drastic in its powers—comprehensive because, as I have said, it has got to deal with every contingency which may arise, drastic because it is no good having a plan unless you can put it into operation. And we do desire and mean to see that as soon as possible after the war in these areas affected, dislocated whether by war damage or the changing population, the Church may start again its work fully equipped and provided with a firm basis. The Report of the Ecclesiastical Committee quite rightly says that such reorganizations inevitably involve widespread interference with existing rights "of parishioners, incumbents, patrons and others." It cannot be otherwise when you are dealing with such a problem, but the Ecclesiastical Committee are satisfied that proper regard has been paid to their rights. One cannot avoid a disturbance of them, but the Measure abounds in provisions to see that the fullest possible consideration is given to all interests.
  In the preparation of a scheme of reorganization there must be full discussion with incumbents, with parochial church councils, and with patrons. When a scheme is prepared objections may be lodged by all these interests and also, if desired, by any local or planning authority—that is to say, the civil side can come in if it so desires. If, after due negotiation, the objections are not resolved, there is an appeal to a special tribunal set up, one in each province. The decision of that tribunal is final. That is not to be quarrelled with, since
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  you must get finality somewhere, but it still remains to say that the scheme as thus finally approved has to lie on the Table of the two Houses of Parliament for twenty-eight days when once more, if necessary, a final objection can be raised. The Ecclesiastical Committee in its Report calls particular attention to one special way in which existing rights are disturbed. In the process of making these rearrangements you may find a group of four parishes and decide they must be replaced by three parishes better arranged. If one of these parishes happens to be vacant, the three surviving incumbents can go into the three parishes; but supposing there are four incumbents, one is left over, one is, to put it shortly, superfluous, and therefore loses his incumbency.
  What is to happen in such a situation? Quite obviously such a man must be fairly and equitably compensated for the loss of the benefice which he previously held. The Measure directs that every such dispossessed incumbent shall receive fair and equitable compensation. In presenting his own claim, he may be represented by a best friend, and if he is finally not satisfied he can appeal again to the special tribunal. Those responsible for the Measure are satisfied that in this way fair treatment and fair compensation will be secured. The point was specially brought to the notice again and again of the House of Clergy in the Church Assembly. They may be trusted to watch the interests of their own order, and on each occasion they accepted this proposal as properly meeting the needs of the situation. The Ecclesiastical Committee also endorsed that opinion that proper provision is made for that particular case, but it is right that your Lordships should have it in mind. It is the kind of thing one would not wish to happen, but it may have to happen, and we do wish it to be dealt with properly and fairly.
  There I think we can leave the Measure. It is full of interest in its fifty-seven clauses for those who like to study it. Its purpose really to re-start parochial life as efficiently as possible and as soon as possible in these dislocated areas. It is an unprecedented Measure, and so are the conditions. The Church has, if I may say so, shown great courage and great foresight in tackling this problem boldly and definitely, and so armed itself beforehand to be ready to act the moment the opportunity arises.

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  In our lighter moments we even think we are showing the way to the State, pointing the way they might go with equal courage and foresight in dealing with the much greater problems which face them. Five times in al the Church Assembly has debated the principles of this Measure and in every case has endorsed them. Its revision stage was long and thorough, and final approval was given to the Measure by what the most reverend Primate described as "quite an enormous majority." The Ecclesiastical Committee described it as urgently needed and expedient, and I submit it to your Lordships with every confidence that you will accept it.
  Moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Reorganization Areas Measure, 1944, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent.—(The Lord Bishop of London.)
  LORD HEMINGFORD: My Lords, I make no apology for a few very brief remarks on the subject which the right reverend Prelate has just dealt with towards the end—the special paragraph in the Report of the Ecclesiastical Committee. I yield to none in this House in my admiration—I do not think it is too strong a term—for this Measure and my sincere hope that there will be no difficulty raised whatever in passing this Resolution. What I am anxious about is this. The Ecclesiastical Committee found them selves in a position of some considerable difficulty in making what could be regarded as a thoroughly favourable Report. It was on account of a comparatively small matter, but a matter which is definitely one of their duties under the Act constituting the Assembly and giving it its powers. The Act provides that the Ecclesiastical Committee have to draft a report stating the nature and legal effect of the Measure and their views as to the expediency thereof, especially in relation to "the constitutional rights of all His Majesty's subjects." These are the important words to which I wish to draw your Lordships' attention, and which I hope will be borne in mind by the Church Assembly in future. In this case it did appear to a great many members of the Committee that certain constitutional rights were affected and that there was not that provision which Parliament probably would
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  have put in for compensation for the loss of these rights.
  I am not going into the matter in any detail, but it depends on the question of the right of an incumbent to a life interest in the income of the endowments of the benefice. It does not seem clear from the Measure, and certainly looks anything but clear from the debates which took place in the Assembly, whether the incumbent in such a case, if dispossessed, is going to get as compensation the full value of that life interest which is taken from him. Many people have asked, without getting a satisfactory answer, "What is the meaning of constitutional rights?" It is perhaps rather like the old story of the elephant: "I cannot tell you what an elephant is." I cannot tell you what is a constitutional right, but I think I can recognize one when I see it. I suggest that "the constitutional rights of His Majesty's subjects," at any rate, include the sort of rights which we all consider have been secured in this country by Magna Charta and in the United States of America by the Declaration of Independence. They are those rights which are claimed for the subjects of all free nations by the Atlantic Charter, and indeed are those rights for which we are fighting in this war.
  In these circumstances it becomes, to my mind, more important at the present time that we should see that nothing is allowed to pass which is inconsistent with the preservation of what is described, for want of a better phrase, as the "constitutional rights of any of His Majesty's subjects." The matter is really a technical point because there are very few who are concerned, or likely to be concerned. I do not propose to go into the argument whether the fair and equitable compensation, and the machinery arranged for obtaining it, is, or is not, sufficient. Having in view their anxiety not to interfere with the passage of the Measure into law, the Committee came to the conclusion (I think as a matter of what was likely to happen rather than as a matter of legal certainty) that there was not very much danger of any dispossessed incumbent suffering very much if at all under this. At the same time that technical point remained and the Committee felt bound to do as they have done—namely, call attention to it.

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  There are two things I want to say about that. The first is that this is not the first Measure from the Church Assembly which has aroused a certain amount of opposition in Parliament on account of some small incidental point, and I do hope that in the future, in its own interests and in the interests of the Church, the Church Assembly will watch very carefully what is likely to be the reaction of at any rate a good many members in the two Houses on certain points which may occur in a Measure. For instance, it would have done away with a certain risk to this Measure (which I think has been overcome) if this matter had been a little more carefully considered, and considered from the point of the difficulty which the Ecclesiastical Committee had in getting over those particular points.
  The only other thing I want to say about it is in regard to the real importance at the present time of watching these questions, which just before the war some members of both Houses of Parliament were inclined to treat as trifling. We now see—I suggest we do see in this case—that there is often a very important principle behind some of these questions of what are generally considered to be the constitutional rights of some of His Majesty's subjects. Those rights are indeed the real issue in this war. Therefore I hope your Lordships will not think I have been wasting the time of the House by drawing attention to this particular point. I would go so far as to suggest that in all cases of this kind the National Assembly, or their Legislative Committee, which I suppose would be the proper body, should communicate with certain members of both Houses of Parliament in regard to a Measure before it comes up to Parliament, with a view of ascertaining whether there is any point of this kind on which difficulty is likely to be felt in either House. That I think would facilitate the passage of their Measures and would make the working together of Parliament and the Church Assembly very much more satisfactory than it has sometimes been in the past.
  EARL GREY: My Lords, I think a third speech upon a Measure of the Church Assembly which is going to be accepted in a few minutes is creating a precedent in your Lordships' House which perhaps is not very desirable, but I should like to say a word or two on the subject both as
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  a member of the Church Assembly and as a member, like my noble friend Lord Hemingford, of the Ecclesiastical Committee. There are two points that I should like to mention. This is not the only method of compensating dispossessed clergy but it was by far the most popular with the persons chiefly concerned, the clergy themselves. The protagonists who fought the other case on the Ecclesiastical Committee were led in both cases by the same person, my noble relative Lord Quickswood, and the difference between his success in the two was that he received far less support from the clergy in the Church Assembly than he did from some friends in the Ecclesiastical Committee.
  I should like to say that it is constantly in the minds of those who work in the Church Assembly to maintain the best possible liaison between that body and the House of Commons and your Lordships' House. The late Lord Selborne introduced a new Measure about six years ago for that very purpose. It gave the House of Laity in the Church Assembly power to co-opt members who were not elected from any other source, and there are certainly two members of your Lordships' House who are co-opted. No later than last year I had the privilege of moving in the Standing Committee of the House of Laity that Mr. Willink and Mr. Henry Brooke, both distinguished Members of the House of Commons, should be co-opted for that very purpose. Unfortunately from that point of view the Government have since then taken possession of Mr. Willink and promoted him to a higher sphere, and he can no longer speak for us. But we have that matter very much in mind and it is more the difficulty of finding people who can spare the time than any absence of will on the part of the Assembly in this matter that stands in the way. But of course there is constant consultation between representatives of the Church Assembly and every Government Department that is concerned in any Measure that comes forward for consideration and the Government draftsman is also frequently consulted. I should like to assure Lord Hemingford that there is a really live effort to keep co-operation as close as possible.
  The only thing I would like to say about the Ecclesiastical Committee is this. I think Lord Hemingford goes a little far when he says the Committee had

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  a difficulty in finding a way of giving a favourable decision for this Measure. I think the Committee were really very much reassured by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Clauson, who, speaking with all his great experience and after having made a careful examination of this particular point, said he was satisfied it was a full and fair measure of compensation that was offered. If it had not been for Lord Clauson's assurance perhaps there would have been further examination, but he did reassure us on that point, and I do not think there was any difficulty in the minds of the majority of the Ecclesiastical Committee in making the Report that has been presented to your Lordships' House.
  THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I should like to add one word because naturally those of us who sit on these Benches are eager to avoid any suggestion that the rights of the clergy are being in any way overlooked. The particular problem that arose in this case was whether we should say that every dispossessed incumbent was to receive the full value of the benefice; but is this its value as it was when he was instituted to it, when there was a large income, or the value of the benefice at the moment of his dispossession, when it might totally have disappeared? In a great many of these cases the value of the benefice comes from the rent of property built on the glebe and because that has disappeared some of the best endowed benefices in the city of London are now providing no income for the incumbent at all. What he is dispossessed of, therefore, is a claim which cannot be met. It was necessary, therefore, to establish some form of equitable treatment for these men. It seemed more convenient and proper that all these cases should be met on a basis of equity rather than on a figure which depended to some extent on the action of the enemy which we cannot at present predict. That is the reason why we took this line rather than the line that a man is entitled to compensation to the full extent. It is no good saying that a man is legally entitled to a certain thing if that means that he will not have money to enable him to live.
  THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Hemingford, has drawn attention to this point because it
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  is an important point. We have always had in mind that we must have regard to the constitutional rights of His Majesty's subjects. When we approached this matter and in the course of the discussion upon it we did keep in touch with legal opinion and the fact that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Clauson, assured me personally that full constitutional rights were preserved in the Measure, especially by the final appeal to the Houses of Parliament, convinced me that we were not proceeding on false lines. This point was considered at every stage with very great care. We could not have been more careful if we had tried on this particular point. We tried every kind of formula and we found it impossible to produce one which would operate justly in every case. The most reverend Primate has just called attention to the fact that it is no use to say to a clergyman that his constitutional rights in his benefice shall he preserved if his benefice has lost its value. Throughout the discussions in the Church Assembly it was evident that this matter could not be dealt with by formula or arithmetical calculation but only by reasonable men trying to meet the situation.
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  SMALL-SCALE FOOD PRODUCTION.
  VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: My Lords, I beg to ask the question standing in my name on the Paper.
  [The question was as follows:
  To ask His Majesty's Government, whether they can furnish any estimate of the proportion of total home-grown food now represented by the produce of small holdings, gardens, and allotments and other areas of small-scale food production in Great Britain; what is roughly the percentage increase of their food output since the commencement of the present war; and how does it compare with similar small-scale production in the last war.]
  THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE DUKE OF NORFOLK): My Lords, my noble friend will appreciate that the subject of his question is one on which only approximate estimates can be given, since the class of

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  production which he has in mind is derived partly from land outside the scope of the agricultural returns. No estimate has been made of the production from small holdings over one acre in size. My reply, therefore, is concerned only with production from holdings of one acre or under, including gardens, allotments, and plots cultivated by the Services, etc. It is estimated that this class of land now contributes some 10 per cent. of the total tonnage of home-produced food; the percentage increase which has taken place during the war is estimated to be not far short of 50 per cent. Production from this type of land in the last war was on a similar scale, but the information in regard to that period is insufficient for any close comparison to be made.

  GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (DISTRIBUTION OF REVENUES) AMENDMENT ORDER, 1944.
  Report from the India and Burma Orders Committee, That they have examined the Draft Order as required by the Standing Orders of the House; that in their opinion the Order raises important questions of policy and principle; that the Order is founded on precedent; that in the opinion of the Committee the Order cannot be passed by the House without special attention, but that no further inquiry is necessary before the House proceeds to a decision on the Resolution to approve the said Order.
  Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  House adjourned.