Sitting of 29 June 1944

PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  LONDON MIDLAND AND SCOTTISH RAILWAY BILL [Lords] [By Order]
  Second Reading deferred till Wednesday next, at the hour appointed for the consideration of Opposed Private Business.
  LONDON MIDLAND AND SCOTTISH RAILWAY (CANALS) BILL [Lords] [By Order]
  Second Reading deferred till Wednesday next, at the hour appointed for the consideration of Opposed Private Business.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  DISCHARGED SERVICE PERSONNEL (RESETTLEMENT)
  Miss Wardasked the Minister of Labour how many men and women discharged from His Majesty's Forces are registered as unemployed at the employment exchanges.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Bevin): I regret that the information for which my hon. Friend asks is not available.
  Miss Ward: In order that we may see whether the machinery for absorbing ex-Servicemen and women into employment is effective, will the right hon. Gentleman see that a special register is kept of these men and women, otherwise we shall have no chance of making any comments about the machinery?
  Mr. Bevin: I will consider that, but I am against too much segregation of the people who use the employment exchanges.
  Mr. Walter Edwardsasked the Minister of Labour whether he intends to
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  make any special provision for advising men and women released from war service at the conclusion of hostilities about matters relating to their resettlement in civil life.
  Mr. Bevin: Yes, Sir. The Government have decided that a special service, under the control of the Ministry of Labour and National Service, shall be set up for this purpose. I am accordingly making plans to establish Resettlement Advice Offices, as an extension of the existing service given by the Department in all parts of the country. The function of these offices will be to give advice and information to all men and women released from the Forces or from other forms of war service, and to render every possible assistance to them in dealing with their resettlement problems. By providing these centres, at which such persons may seek assistance whatever their requirement; may be, we intend not only to help them to solve their difficulties but also to save them avoidable journeys and inquiries. The work of these offices will be dovetailed in with that of my outside Welfare Officers and will be co-ordinated with that of the voluntary organisations.
  Mr. Edwards: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware how much his action will be appreciated by the people concerned?
  Mr. Mathers: Will my right hon. Friend bring this organisation into operation as quickly as possible, to meet the needs of those who are now being discharged from the Forces?
  Mr. Bevin: Yes, Sir, steps have already been taken towards that end. I propose to deal with the matter in this way in order that men can be helped by whatever Department may be affected.
  Mr. Henderson Stewart: Is it my right hon. Friend's intention, in scattered areas, such as Fife, for instance, where there are many small burghs, to have an adviser in each of the main towns, and not simply an adviser at one centre, such as Kirkcaldy?
  Mr. Bevin: The organisation is being worked out, and I may be able to make a further statement later.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: Will my right hon. Friend consult the representatives of the various organisations which have great

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  experience in this matter, in order that the machine may function as efficiently as possible?
  Mr. Bevin: I said that I proposed to co-operate with the various agencies.

  NATIONAL WAR EFFORT

    Employment Exchange, Walton, Liverpool
    Mr. Kirbyasked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the lack of lavatory accommodation for women at the Employment Exchange, Church Road, West, Walton, Liverpool; that some of the women registering there are unwell and some of them pregnant; and will he take early steps to remedy this state of affairs.
    Mr. Bevin: These are temporarily hired premises at a Methodist church hall and there is difficulty in providing lavatory accommodation there for the public. Efforts are being made to overcome this difficulty, and I will write to my hon. Friend in due course.
    Mr. Kirby: Will my right hon. Friend look upon this matter as one of some urgency?

    Essential Work Order (Steel Works, Sheffield)
    Mr. Dobbieasked the Minister of Labour if he will make a statement about the position of Mr. A. Thomas, of Rotherham, in regard to his dismissal from a steel works in Sheffield, details of which have been supplied to him; whether he will have an inquiry into the circumstances of his dismissal; and why he has been unemployed for two years, although a proficient man in the industry, whilst other workers in the district have been sent to prison for absenteeism of days only.
    Mr. Bevin: I understand that in September, 1942, the employment of Mr. Thomas as a departmental manager with Messrs. Arthur Lee & Sons of Sheffield, was terminated without the permission of the National Service officer, Mr. Thomas having, on request, tendered his resignation. There was thus apparently an infringement of the Essential Work Order but the circumstances were clearly such that proceedings could not be successfully instituted against the firm. With
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    regard to the last part of the Question, there have been difficulties in connection with finding employment for Mr. Thomas, which I would like to discuss with my hon. Friend.

    Trainees (Billeting Payments)
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Health if he is aware that billeting officers are prevented from securing first-class accommodation for boys being trained for the mines and other industries in many cases because of the effect on supplementary pensions; that people cooperating in the war effort have accepted such boys after which their supplementary pensions have been reduced, in one case to 1s. a week; and will he take steps to restore the pre-billeting payment and cancel the operation of the regulation in cases of this kind for the period of the war.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Willink): I understand that some householders have been unwilling to provide lodgings for mining trainees for the reason mentioned by my hon. Friend, but no serious difficulty has been experienced. I am informed by the Assistance Board that payments made by the trainees for their lodgings are treated in the same way as payments made by any other boarders, the normal rule being to regard as a resource of the pensioner one half of the amount by which the payment made by the boarder exceeds 18s.

  SCHOOL SURFACE SHELTERS
  Mr. Kirbyasked the President of the Board of Education if he will issue instructions for the strengthening of school surface shelters, as has been done in relation to public shelters by the Minister of Home Security; such instructions to carry with them the customary Government grant in respect of such work.
  Captain McEwen (Lord of the Treasury): I have been asked to reply. The local education authority in consultation with the local Air Raid Precautions authority, is primarily responsible for determining the arrangements for protection of school children which are appropriate to the circumstances of the area. The existing instructions provide that school surface shelters may be strengthened, with the customary grant in respect of such work, where local cir-

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  cumstances justify such work at the present time.
  Mr. Kirby: Is it not a fact that the Minister of Home Security has issued instructions in regard to surface shelters, whereas up to now, so far as I can find out, the President of the Board of Education has failed to issue such instructions and applications made by local authorities have been turned down by the Board, which has "passed the buck" to the Ministry of Home Security?
  Captain McEwen: I will convey the sense of my hon. Friend's remarks to my right hon. Friend.

  HOUSING

    Advisory Committee (Reports)
    Mr. Henderson Stewartasked the Minister of Health what reports he has received from the four sub-Committees of the Advisory Committee on Housing; which of those Reports have been published; what further Reports are likely soon to be in his hands; and if he can give a summary of the recommendations made by each of the four sub-Committees.
    Mr. Willink: Final reports from the sub-Committees on rural housing, the design of dwellings and private enterprise, have been accepted by the main Committee and passed to me. The report on rural housing has already been published and I hope to publish the other two very shortly. Interim reports have been made by the sub-Committee on temporary construction and I understand that they expect to complete their study of the problem shortly. If the final report is accepted by the main Committee, and passed to me, I shall consider the question of publication.
    Mr. Stewart: In connection with the last part of the Minister's answer, in view of the action which the Government have taken in committing themselves, as it were, to a special type of temporary house, will my right hon. and learned Friend assure us that the Committee's Report will be published?
    Mr. Willink: I think it would be wrong in advance of a report being made to give an assurance that it will be published, but I have undertaken to publish, or have published already, the other
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    three and I shall consider the question of publishing any final Report of this sub-Committee.

    Sites, Preparation (Technical Staffs)
    Mr. Harry Thorneycroftasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that, notwithstanding the adoption of all the suggestions made in Circular 14/44, the ideal authorities are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the necessary technical staff to enable them to carry out the work which is required before employing contractors upon the advance preparation of housing sites; and whether he will, in conjunction with the other Ministers affected, make the necessary arrangements for the requisite technical staff to be made available.
    Mr. Willink: Yes, Sir. I am consulting with my colleagues as to possible arrangements.
    Mr. Thorneycroft: Is the Minister aware that it is quite useless for local authorities to make an application to the Appointments Board of the Ministry of Labour, because the majority of qualified men are now in the Royal Engineers? Should not these men be released for service with the local authorities on this important work?
    Mr. Willink: I am aware of the difficulty in regard to technical officers, but it would be quite wrong for me to say that it would be useless to apply to my right hon. Friend's Department.

    Local Authorities (Programmes)
    Mr. Harry Thorneycroftasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the housing authorities are experiencing difficulty in connection with their first and second year housing programme in the absence of any indication on the part of the Government as to the method which it is proposed to follow in allocating amongst the various housing authorities the Government's programme of 300,000 permanent houses in the two years after the end of the war in Europe; the part which private enterprise is expected to play in connection therewith; and the method of allocation amongst housing authorities of the Government's programme of temporary houses and the obligations of the housing authorities in connection therewith; and if he can yet make any statement on these matters.
    Mr. Willink: I have not received any general representations on the point raised in the first part of the Question, and I do not think that any difficulty ought to arise at present. Local authorities have already been advised to base their short-term programmes on their annual output of houses before the war. On the second and third parts, I hope to make statements at an early date.

    Prefabricated Houses
    Miss Wardasked the Minister of Health when he will announce his plans for the allocation of prefabricated houses.
    Mr. Willink: I hope to be able to make an announcement shortly on this and other matters regarding the factory made emergency house.
    Miss Ward: Will the statement be made before the House rises for the Recess?
    Mr. Willink: I hope so.
    Mr. Buchanan: Will it cover only the Ministry of Health or will it be a joint statement to cover Scotland as well?
    Mr. Willink: I will discuss that with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. It may be that there will be two.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: Will the statement be of such a kind that it can be debated, in view of the great interest in the matter?
    Mr. Willink: That is a question for the Leader of the House.
    Mr. Stewart: May I ask the Leader of the House to consider whether the statement cannot be made in such a way that we may debate it?
    The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): I think we had better see the statement first.

    Sites (Grouping Scheme)
    Mr. Astorasked the Minister of Health whether he intends to allow authorities, who have grouped for the purpose of preparing sites for houses, to split up their group and obtain tenders in the normal manner.
    Mr. Willink: As indicated in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Sir L. Lyle) on 15th June, this scheme is a voluntary one and no local authority can be compelled to join
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    a group against its will. The Government believe, however, that in present circumstances, grouping is the most efficient and economical method of doing this work, and that the tenders when received will demonstrate that it is to the financial advantage of local authorities to participate in the grouping scheme.
    Mr. Astor: My right hon. and learned Friend has not answered my Question. I asked whether they would be allowed to split up their groups again if they want to.
    Mr. Willink: I thought I answered that part of the Question by implication when I said the scheme was a voluntary one. It is voluntary both in regard to going in and to coming out.
    Mr. Astor: If they exercise their option to split up, will they still be able to obtain priorities for machinery and labour?
    Mr. Willink: That depends on whether the particular proposal is one which is both efficient and economical.
    Mr. Bossomasked the Minister of Health how many local authorities have protested against the group system proposed for the preparation of post-war housing sites; and how many have asked to withdraw from this scheme.
    Mr. Willink: The scheme, as I indicated in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth on 15th June, is a voluntary one. 73 groups have now been formed in England and Wales comprising over 500 authorities.
    Mr. Bossom: Is my right hon. and learned friend aware that this group scheme carried out on smaller housing sites will be quite extravagant and very undesirable if pushed far in that way?
    Mr. Willink: I was not aware that I had referred to pushing it in any way. This is, of course, a scheme for larger sites. The whole question is the use of labour in this very difficult year in the most economical and efficient way possible.

    Vacated Military Premises
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Health if he can now report the conclusions reached at the conference on premises occupied for military purposes but likely to be made available for civilian accommodation.
    Mr. Willink: No, Sir, but in view of my hon. Friend's special interest in this matter I will communicate with him as soon as a decision is reached.

    Small Builders
    Mr. Bossomasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that a large number of operatives in the building industry gained their experience by working for small builders; and will he for this reason support the principle that smaller builders be given maximum consideration for post-war building work, to help to develop our building trades army at the earliest possible moment.
    Mr. Willink: Yes, Sir, and I anticipate that as soon as it is possible to resume house-building there will be ample scope for the small builder.
    Mr. Bossom: Will my right hon. and learned Friend make a great effort in this direction, because small builders train the new workers more than the larger films and it would be very valuable if we could get the smaller builders working as soon as possible?
    Mr. Willink: I have said repeatedly that I place very great importance on the work of the small builders.
    Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Is not the right hon. and learned Gentleman perfectly powerless in these matters, inasmuch as the Ministry of Works and Buildings has absolute control of the material required?
    Mr. Willink: No, Sir.
    Mr. Buchanan: This is a matter of great urgency and we want to get the best machinery in order that houses shall be built quickly. Is it not the fact that in some cases that can only be done by a large movement of organisation?
    Mr. Willink: At the moment we are busy with other matters than house-building.

    New Construction Methods
    Mr. Bossomasked the Minister of Health when he proposes to give definite approval or rejection to the new forms of construction illustrated in his interdepartmental Report on post-war building studies for house construction and to other new forms of house construction, so that local authorities may consider them for their post-war building programmes.
    Mr. Willink: I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the circular I have already sent to local authorities in which I have pointed out that the report will be a valuable guide to them in regard to experiments or demonstrations or to the adoption of particular methods in postwar housing schemes.
    Mr. Bossom: Will my right hon. and learned Friend augment this statement by framing model by-laws so as to enable this to be done?
    Mr. Willink: You, Sir, and the House has heard my hon. Friend refer to bylaws again and again. On the last occasion I invited him, as an experienced architect, to give examples of what he had in mind.
    Mr. Bossom: I should be pleased to do this but I will also call my right hon. and learned Friend's attention to an answer he gave me which is in direct contradiction to one by his Parliamentary Secretary on the same subject.

  PUBLIC HEALTH

    Emergency Hospitals (Military Patients, Service Rations)
    Commander Sir Archibald Southbyasked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been drawn to conditions obtaining at Horton Hospital, Epsom; ant what steps have been taken to improve the catering and feeding arrangements, particularly as regards the military patients under treatment in the hospital.
    Mr. Willink: Yes, Sir, and I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for the interest he has taken and the help he has given in this matter. As the answer to the second part of the Question is rather long, I will, with permission, give it after Questions.
    Later:
    I have been giving close attention for some time past to the feeding arrangements, not only at Horton but in E.M.S. hospitals generally. For this purpose the staff of my Department was increased early this year by the appointment of two qualified hospital dieticians to enable a more systematic inspection of hospitals to be made. The inspections show that in general feeding arrangements are good. In the few cases where improvements have been shown to be needed they are

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    being made. Complaints have been received about the feeding at Horton. My officers visited Horton under the new scheme of inspection in February and a further visit was paid in company with officers of the Ministry of Labour and National Service on 30th May. On the second visit the arrangements were found to have been much improved but certain additional steps were decided upon. A catering administrator has been appointed. The Steward, who had given many years of good service and whose health is no longer robust has retired and a new Steward has taken up duty.
    Athough the feeding difficulties which had occurred were not found to be due to shortage of staff, the nursing and domestic staff have been augmented to meet certain new responsibilities. Improvements are being made in the equipment. In all these matters I have had the cordial co-operation of the London County Council and I think we may be satisfied that there will be no further cause for complaint.
    As my right hon. Friend, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, informed my hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Higgs) on 15th June, arrangements have been made to enable hospitals with a substantial proportion of Service patients to obtain an additional allowance of meat, if this is shown to be necessary.
    Sir A. Southby: May I ask whether it is not the case that, apart from defective organisation in this or any other case, the difficulty in an emergency hospital is that military personnel are given civilian rations, and would it not be possible to arrange for them to have military rations, as they would have in a military hospital?
    Mr. Willink: That is, of course, a question for the Minister of Food, but where the main Service population of a hospital are recently wounded, it is really not necessary that there should be Service rations for the whole number—indeed, it was found earlier in the war that it was very difficult to justify military rations for every Service man in hospital in comparison, for example, with injured Civil Defence personnel or other civilians. I think the arrangement which has been made by which the meat, which Servicemen miss particularly, will be increased
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    whenever there is a sufficient number of Servicemen in the hospital, will meet the case.
    Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Is the Minister aware that the difference between Service rations and civilian rations in these hospitals is so very slight, that it would not make all the difference that has been complained of by the Service personnel, who have been patients in the hospital for a long time; and is not antiquity in regard to the administration of this particular hospital causing more trouble than the shortage of rations?
    Mr. Willink: I do not think there is antiquity now. It is the extreme difficulty of the arrangements in the hospital, which is now being used for a very much larger number of patients than it was designed to accommodate.

    Water Supplies (Reservoirs, Wales)
    Mr. Higgsasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the severe local shortage of water in various parts of the country, he can state the general position of the reservoirs in Wales.
    Mr. Willink: The amount of water now in storage in the majority of the impounding reservoirs in Wales is satisfactory.

    Tuberculosis (Special Allowances)
    Mr. Rhys Daviesasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the wife of a serving soldier giving up work of national importance, suffering from the incipient stages of tuberculosis, is not entitled to any of the benefits of the special scheme of his department because she has no dependants; and if he will consider extending the scheme to cover this and similar cases.
    Mr. Willink: Payment of special allowances would not be justified when, as in the case to which my hon. Friend refers, an individual is already in receipt of an allowance from Exchequer funds which enables him or her to undertake treatment without hardship.
    Mr. Davies: Will not the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider revising the scheme, especially in view of the adverse effects on the soldier when he knows his wife is suffering from tuberculosis and is not entitled to the benefits of his scheme?
    Mr. Willink: I am sympathetic with those who see difficulties in the scheme

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    but it is one designed to do the very best we can and to give the greatest help we can in present circumstances.

    River Tyne (Pollution)
    Miss Wardasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the polluted state of the River Tyne; and what steps he is taking to deal with it.
    Mr. Willink: Yes, Sir. I am aware that pollution of the Tyne by sewage is substantial and of long standing. It is evident from information in my possession that to remedy these conditions must involve a very large expenditure of labour, materials and money and I regret that I cannot hold out any hope of speedy remedial action.
    Miss Ward: Why was not the matter tackled when Sir Malcolm Stewart, as Commissioner for the Special Area, made his report?
    Mr. Willink: That is not a question for me.
    Miss Ward: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman kindly look into it, because it is very dilatory action for it not to be put into operation?
    Sir Herbert Williams: I understand that this will cost labour, materials and money. What is the money for apart from labour and materials?
    Mr. Shinwell: As this is a matter not merely of local but of national interest affecting many other parts of the country, have the Government any plans for after the war, when material, labour and presumably money will be available? Is not this desirable in connection with reconstruction after the war?
    Mr. Willink: I have information in my Department as to what should be done. The advice I have received, however, is that this is a matter which will not be of first priority in the immediate after-war period, important though it is.

  AEROPLANE ACCIDENT (WIDOW'S PENSION CLAIM)
  Mr. Edgar Granvilleasked the Minister of Pensions of he is aware that Mrs. Clark, The Priory, Stradbroke, Suffolk, whose husband was killed by an aeroplane crash in November, 1943, is still without a pension; and what steps he proposes to grant this in the near future.
  The Minister of Pensions (Sir Walter Womersley): Two days after the death of her husband, Mrs. Clarke received the first payment of the special temporary allowance of 50s. a week which is paid for ten weeks to the widow of a gainfully occupied civilian who dies as the result of a war injury. Before the end of the ten weeks Mrs. Clarke was sent a pension order book for 26s. 8d, now 32s. 6d. weekly, to take effect from 20th January. She has declined to draw this pension.
  Mr. Granville: 1s 32s. 6d. the maximum pension that this widow is to receive for the loss of her husband through the crashing of an American aircraft?
  Sir W. Womersley: It is the amount sanctioned by the House.

  INDIA

    British Personnel, Indian Army (Home Postings)
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Secretary of State for India whether officers and other ranks of the Indian Army are eligible for repatriation to England after extensive tours of duty in India.
    The Secretary of State for India (Mr. Amery): I assume that the hon. Member refers to British personnel of the Indian Army. The War Office scheme of cross-posting to the Home Establishment is by its nature not applicable to the Indian Army but as soon as shipping conditions made it possible I arranged for the opening of a leave scheme for Indian Army personnel. British Service personnel attached to, or serving with, the Indian Army are, however, eligible for consideration under the War Office scheme.
    Mr. Bellenger: Do we understand that the personnel of the Indian Army will be on the same terms as regards leave as British personnel attached to the Indian Army?
    Mr. Amery: I understand that they come under the same general scheme.

    Indian Federation of Labour
    Mr. Dobbieasked the Secretary of State for India whether he can inform the House for what purpose 13,000 rupees per month is paid to the Indian Federation of Labour.
    Mr. Amery: In March, 1942, the Government of India invited the Indian Federation of Labour and the All India Trades Union Congress to co-operate in measures to support the morale of labour in order to defeat potential enemy action and maintain production. The two bodies were invited to submit schemes, the cost of which Government would be prepared to meet. The Federation submitted a scheme which the Government of India approved and agreed to pay for and the monthly grant referred to is in fulfilment of this arrangement.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that this has been condemned very severely in many quarters in India?
    Mr. Amery: It was open to the Trades Union Congress in India to accept the scheme and to work it.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does not that indicate that the Trades Union Congress of India has shown a greater sense of political integrity by refusing that financial subsidy?

    British and American Canteens
    Mr. Astorasked the Secretary of State for India what machinery is used by the Indian Canteen Board in making purchases outside India.
    Mr. Amery: For food items demands on the United States of America are placed by the Indian Canteen Stores Department on their own buying agency in Washington which is linked to the Indian Supply Mission. Demands elsewhere are placed on my office in which a buying agency is located. For non-food items the arrangements are similar except that demands on my Office are made only for goods manufactured in the United Kingdom. Other demands are obtained direct, normally through the trade commissioners in India of the supplying countries concerned.
    Mr. Astor: Is it not a fact that this organisation duplicates and competes against the N.A.A.F.I. purchasing organisation, and would it not be more efficient and economical to amalgamate the two?
    Mr. Amery: No, Sir, I do not think so.
    Mr. Astorasked the Secretary of State for India what are the comparable prices of specimen items of beer, tobacco and spirits, sold in Indian canteens and
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    in American canteens in India, respectively.
    Mr. Amery: I understand that American canteens are dry in regard to spirits, but American and British messes are supplied with whisky and gin by the Indian Canteen Stores Department at the same price. I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the prices of beer and tobacco in British canteens in India. I am asking the Government of India to supply the corresponding prices in American canteens and will communicate with my hon. Friend when I have received them.
    Following is the information:

    Imported beer: Rs.1/6 per quart bottle, plus any local excise duties.

    Indigenous beer: Varies according to brand from As. 14 to Re.1/- per quart bottle, plus any local excise duties.

    Capstan Medium (local pack, part indigenous part imported tobacco leaf): Rs.2/10 per ¼ lb. plus local taxes.

    Imported tobacco: Max. Rs.4/4 per ¼ lb.

    Woodbines: As.2½ per 10.

    Players: As. 3½ per 10.

    Wills: As.3½ per 10.

    Missionaries (Travel Facilities)
    Dr. Littleasked the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the need for missionaries in India at the moment, he will respond to the appeals of the missionary societies and arrange for passages, not only for the return of missionaries now at home, but also for sending out new missionaries to India.
    Mr. Amery: I am aware of the difficulties experienced by the missionary societies in regard to passages to India, and I am consulting the Viceroy to see whether the situation can be alleviated in any way once the present special restrictions on overseas travel are relaxed. The difficulty is the scarcity of passages for all needs and I fear there can be no marked improvement until the shipping position becomes easier.
    Dr. Little: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the number of missionaries who are waiting to return and of others who are waiting to go out, and would not their presence be very helpful to us in India at the moment if the necessary arrangements could be made?
    Mr. Amery: I entirely agree with the hon. Member.
    Mr. Quintin Hogg: Does my right hon. Friend agree that there are other people, including officers' wives, who are also waiting to go out?

    Bombay and Baroda Railways
    Mr. Graham Whiteasked the Secretary of State for India the reason for the delay in the winding-up of the Bombay and Baroda Railways; what the present position is; and if the procedure is being carried out under the Companies Acts.
    Mr. Amery: The delay is, I am informed, mainly due to difficulties in ascertaining the company's share of profits for the final period during which they managed the railway and in determining the company's final tax liabilities both in India and the United Kingdom. It is hoped to complete the winding-up in the course of the present year. The dissolution of the company is being carried out under the provisions of the Bombay Baroda and Central India Railway Act, 1942, not under the Companies Acts.
    Mr. White: If my right hon. Friend's anticipation of an early settlement of this affair is not reached, would it be possible to issue an interim statement?
    Mr. Amery: I will look into that, but it may be difficult.

    Food Situation (Commission of Inquiry)
    Mr. Graham Whiteasked the Secretary of State for India when the Commission of inquiry into the causes of food shortage and consequent epidemics in India is expected to begin its duties; and if he is satisfied that steps have been taken to offset the prospective shortage due to the damage to the wheat crop in April.
    Mr. Amery: Until the names of the members have been announced I cannot give the actual date. I do not think it will be long. The damage to the wheat crop is not so great as was at one time feared; but the resulting loss is being taken into account in the measures adopted by His Majesty's Government, the Government of India and the Provincial Governments for the supply and distribution of foodgrains.

    Sterling Balances
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the disquiet expressed by the Committee of the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and by other public bodies and
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    public men respecting the liquidation of Indian sterling balances, he will give an assurance that India will be free to decide its own policy in this respect in the interest of Indian welfare and not have to submit to external decisions detrimental to Indian interests.
    Mr. Amery: I appreciate the importance of the matter, to which the hon. Member draws attention, but at this stage I can only refer him to the replies given by my hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Craven-Ellis) on 22nd June.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the disquiet in regard to this matter is deep and extensive; and in view of the fear in some parts of India that these sterling balances will be liquidated, not by them but by us, can he give some assurance on the matter?
    Mr. Amery: Those suspicions are not well-founded. In any case, it is not a matter that can be discussed by way of Question and answer.
    Mr. Sorensen: Will there be an opportunity of discussing the matter at an early date?
    Mr. Amery: That is a matter for the authorities of the House.

    News Censorship
    Mr. G. Straussasked the Secretary of State for India whether he has considered the many examples submitted to him by the hon. Member for North Lambeth of censorship of news from India on purely political grounds having no possible relationship to security interests; and whether he will give an assurance that the possibility of not applying censorship on political grounds is now being carried out.
    Mr. Amery: I understand that the hon. Member has in mind certain examples cited in a recently published article, which are stated to have occurred between June, 1943, and February, 1944. As regards the general policy under which censorship of outward messages is exercised by the Government of India, I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Wallsend (Miss Ward) on 8th June.
    Mr. Strauss: May we take it from that reply that there has been some change in policy since these examples of political censorship occurred?
    Mr. Amery: The answer I gave was framed in consultation with the Viceroy and it represents the present position of the Government of India.
    Mr. Strauss: Can I press the right hon. Gentleman again? The examples I gave showed clearly that there was a political censorship in the early part of this year. Can we take it that there has been a change in policy and that there will be no such censorship in future, because the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman on 8th June did not indicate any change of policy but merely stated what the policy of the Government of India was?
    Mr. Amery: I do not think it can be said that there has been a change in policy.

    Viceroy and Mr. Gandhi (Correspondence)
    Mr. Edmund Harveyasked the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the publication in the Press of extracts from the correspondence between Mr. Gandhi and the Viceroy, subsequent to Mr. Gandhi's fast and, for the sake of accurate information, the full text of the correspondence will now be issued in this country.
    Mr. Amery: Yes, Sir. The pamphlet containing the correspondence in question, which has been published by the Government of India, has not yet reached this country, but I hope shortly to be able to make it available to the Press and to place copies in the Library.
    Mr. Harvey: Will it be possible for the public to secure copies of this pamphlet?
    Mr. Amery: It will be given to the Press and also laid in the Library of the House, so that it will be generally available.
    Mr. Sorensen: Will the whole correspondence be published?
    Mr. Amery: Yes, Sir, and I believe it covers a great volume of paper.

  IRELAND (TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS)
  Dr. Littleasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, under the changed conditions now prevailing and in the public interest, he will fix an early date for the removal of the travel ban between Great Britain and Ireland
  788
  and the restoration of telephonic communication.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Herbert Morrison): As my hon. Friend is aware, the restrictions in question were imposed for military reasons, and I am not at present in a position to make any statement.
  Dr. Little: Does my right hon. Friend recognise how urgent this matter has become to thousands of people in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and in view of this, will he, having due regard to public security, remove the ban on travel and telephones at the earliest possible moment?
  Mr. Morrison: I can only ask my hon. Friend to subordinate his local considerations to his undoubted loyal sentiments, and to the security of the State.

  AIR RAIDS (FLYING BOMBS)
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in order to counter the propaganda from Germany, he will consider authorising the issue of weekly figures of casualties in Southern England caused by flying bombs; and if he can also give the total casualties since this indiscriminate form of bombing was started, to date.
  Mr. H. Morrison: I appreciate my hon. and gallant Friend's point, but I have also to take into account the question whether the publication of figures will give useful information to the enemy. I can only say at present that I will give very careful consideration to the question of publishing figures of casualties.
  Sir T. Moore: While appreciating my right hon. Friend's caution, may I ask whether the Government have any other plans to counter this lying propaganda?
  Mr. Morrison: I can only say that I have made two statements and I do not think I have anything further to say at the moment. I do not necessarily rule out my hon. Friend's point. I only say that it wants thinking about from all points of view.
  Sir Hugh O'Neill: In view of the fact that casualties from air raids have been published regularly each month, would it

  789
  not give a wrong impression and lead people to believe that the damage was far worse than it is, if suddenly the publication of casualties were stopped?
  Mr. Morrison: That is certainly a relevant consideration which will be fully taken in mind.
  Mr. G. Strauss: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that if the figures are not published there is a tendency to exaggerate the damage and casualties caused by any incident, and that it is desirable to correct that by an official statement?
  Mr. Morrison: I will keep that in mind, but I do not want to give particular incidents and localities. I got into trouble with Clydeside about that once, and I have been careful ever since.
  Commander Locker-Lampson: When an alert is sounded are workmen paid if they stop work?
  Mr. Speaker: That is another question.
  Captain Longhurstasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is now in a position to relax the censorship on the localities mainly affected by flying bombs.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Information (Mr. Thurtle): I have been asked to reply. The answer is "No, Sir," My right hon. Friend is satisfied that there is at present good reason on security grounds for maintaining the existing rule.
  Captain Longhurst: Is the Minister not aware that public morale is very much, I will not say undermined, but lowered, not so much by the bombs themselves, as by the secrecy which prevails about them, and that the public are not by any means satisfied because of this secrecy and absence of fair comment as to whether the character of the arrangements is adequate for the time which the Germans promise us may be coming shortly?
  Mr. Thurtle: I would like to assure my hon. Friend that before the decision was reached every factor was given full and careful consideration. I would add that the position is not final and irrevocable. It may be that it will be reconsidered frequently, and the decision may be changed.
  Sir H. Williams: What is the point of the policy of prohibiting the publication of the localities when every local newspaper at the week-end will have photographs of incidents which everybody knows are local? Is it not a complete farce?
  Mr. Thurtle: I do not wish to enter into an argument on the matter, but there are very valid reasons for the present policy.
  Sir Alfred Beit: Would not public morale be further stimulated if the percentage of bombs destroyed were given?

  HAWKERS AND STREET MUSICIANS (IDENTITY CARDS)
  Mr. Rostron Duckworthasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will empower the police to examine the identity cards, with a view to subsequent detailed inquiry, of hawkers and street musicians claiming to be penniless disabled ex-Service men.
  Mr. H. Morrison: Under Defence Regulations the police have this power, and exercise it in the manner suggested.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    State-owned Assets
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total capital assistance made to contractors, capital commitments other than assistance, the amount of expenditure allowed for extensions to private firms, the amount on agency schemes; has an inventory been made of State-owned assets and has consideration been given to the Sixteenth Report from the Select Committee on National Expenditure, Session 1942–43, that dealt with State-owned assets; and what action has or is to be taken.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Anderson): My hon. Friend will find full details of capital expenditure over the range covered by his Question in the reply of the Minister of Production to him on 9th February last, and that of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry, of 18th May. I do not think that a central inventory of State-owned assets would be either practicable or useful, but

    791
    consideration has been, and is being, given to the question how such assets can best be utilised at the end of the war.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Are the Government considering utilising these assets as far as possible, in order to carry out the policy of State ownerhip and in order that industry will be efficient and able to play a bigger part in the post-war world than would otherwise be the case?
    Sir J. Anderson: I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that the Government are considering how best to use this property in the public interest. I can say no more at present.

    Overseas Investments
    Mr. Thorneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of overseas investment up to the most convenient date; and if he intends prohibiting any more money being invested overseas.
    Sir J. Anderson: In reply to the first part of the Question, I would refer to the reply given to the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Lipson) on 22nd June. In reply to the second part, it would not serve the national interest to go so far as to impose a total prohibition on all overseas investments.
    Mr. Thorne: Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer not aware that the interest on these overseas investments has to be paid for, either by goods or services which come into conflict with home production? Is he not aware that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord Snowden, prohibited investment overseas?
    Sir J. Anderson: My hon. Friend has opened a wide subject. I do not agree with his general view and as regards our overseas position, the fact is that our investments are at the moment far more than offset by credits which have accumulated here in favour of overseas territories.
    Mr. Shinwell: Surely the right hon. Gentleman will agree that it is not the prohibition of foreign investments which matters but their proper direction?
    Sir J. Anderson: I do, of course, entirely agree. There is machinery for regulating foreign investment. We are in danger of falling into fallacy, if we talk just of "overseas investments," because these include all sorts of investments, in-
    792
    cluding investments in other parts of the Commonwealth, and so on. The matter cannot be dealt with just by a few figures.
    Mr. Petherick: Is my right hon. Friend aware that all the investments over the last 100 years have fallen into default, and will His Majesty's Government therefore direct investments, so far as they can, to Empire countries?
    Sir J. Anderson: No doubt that point will be taken into account.

  POLISH GOVERNMENT (MILTARY SUPPLIES AGREEMENT)
  Major Studholmeasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what financial arrangements he has made to cover the supply by His Majesty's Government of military equipment and stores to the Polish Government.
  Sir J. Anderson: The Military Supplies Agreement signed to-day between His Majesty's Government and the Polish Government makes a change in the financial arrangements covering the provision of supplies, stores, equipment, material, services and facilities, etc., for the maintenance of the Polish Armed Forces. Since 3rd June, 1940, payment for these military supplies has been provided out of a military credit opened in favour of the Polish Government. Under the new Military Supplies Agreement, these articles will in future be supplied on a lend-lease basis; His Majesty's Government will not claim reimbursement of the cost, and the Polish Government will, if we so request, return to us such of the articles as still remain under their control at the termination of the hostilities in which the Polish Armed Forces are engaged. This arrangement is similar to those already reached with the Greek Government, the Czechoslovak Government and the French Committee of National Liberation in Algiers.
  At the same time, we have agreed with the Polish Government to give the new Military Supplies Agreement retroactive effect from 3rd June, 1940, the date on which the Polish military credit was opened. This means that His Majesty's Government have agreed to cancel that part of the indebtedness relating to military supplies and services which would have been provided free of cost to the Polish Government if the Military Supplies

  793
  Agreement now concluded had been in force on 3rd June, 1940. For their part, the Polish Government have agreed to forgo any claims for compensation which they may have against His Majesty's Government for similar services, facilities, and other material benefits which the Polish Government have provided since that date. I will inform the House of the amount of indebtedness which His Majesty's Government have cancelled as soon as the figure has been agreed with the Polish Government. It will be seen that the arrangements made conform to the principle of avoiding the creation of war debts in respect of military supplies between the Governments united in the common cause.

  AERIAL WARFARE
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Prime Minister whether, to prevent future destruction of civilisation by aerial warfare, he will initiate proposals to the United Nations to consider after the cessation of hostilities the total abolition of aerial warfare and to establish with all peace-loving nations the means of supervising this abolition; and whether this intention will be immediately disseminated among all peoples both friendly and enemy.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): In the view of His Majesty's Government, our peaceful and humane intentions need no new declaration in the House at the present moment.
  Mr. Sorensen: Does the right hon. Gentleman then appreciate, as I am sure he does, the frightful potentialities of this form of warfare and that, in fact, unless it is controlled, it will destroy civilisation? In view of that fact, will he not begin to consider an effective means of bringing consolation to a war-weary world?
  Mr. Eden: I think the world is rather more concerned with actualities at present.
  Mr. Sorensen——
  Mr. Speaker——
  Mr. Sorensen: Am I not allowed to make this statement—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I want to explain that, in view
  794
  of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter at the earliest opportunity.

  ARMED FORCES OVERSEAS (HOME TRANSFERS)
  Mr. John Dugdaleasked the Prime Minister whether he has now any statement to make on the question of leave for men serving overseas.
  Major-General Sir Alfred Knoxasked the Prime Minister if he has now considered the possibility of assimilating the period of service abroad of men of the Army and R.A.F. in order to qualify for leave.
  Mr. Eden: I would ask my hon. Friends to be good enough to await a statement which I propose to make at the end of Questions.
  Later—
  Mr. Eden: As promised, my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council has looked very thoroughly into this matter, and owing to his unavoidable absence to-day has asked me to report the result of his inquiry. In the Army there is no fixed rule or regulation about the period of service overseas which, in time of war, must, in the last analysis, depend on operational requirements. It is, however, obviously in the interests of the efficiency of the Army that the period should not be unduly long, and my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for War, has consistently aimed at keeping it as low as possible. It will be understood that, during the period of gravest shipping shortage when the Mediterranean was closed, little could be done. Since then, however, considerable progress has been made. First, all those who had been abroad for six years or more were brought home. More recently, it has been possible to start bringing home those who had served abroad for between five and six years; the bulk of these have already returned. My right hon. Friend would naturally wish to improve on this. Indeed, a start has already been made with bringing home men with between four and a half and five years' service abroad. Much will, however, depend on the progress of the war. The process of bringing men home and sending out replacements inevitably immobilises large numbers of men and reduces the impact

  795
  of our army on the enemy; and there is a limit beyond which this reduction cannot be accepted without endangering the vast and critical operations now in progress. It is now essentially a question of manpower rather than of shipping.
  The Army has greater difficulties than the R.A.F., in connection with return to the Home establishment because a larger proportion of the Army is serving overseas. Further-Abe proportion of older and less fit men is larger in the Army and the bulk of these men must, of necessity, be retained at home and cannot be utilised as replacements overseas. Moreover, the R.A.F. are able to carry out offensives from this country. The Army, to carry out an offensive, must be located within the theatre of operations. In the case of the Royal Navy, the return of personnel from foreign stations is governed principally by the necessity for bringing ships home for re-fit. In view of the different conditions obtaining in the three Services, comparisons on this question are impossible. No alteration in the arrangements regarding the period of service overseas in the Navy or the Royal Air Force would make any real contribution to the solution of the very serious problem with which my right hon. Friend is faced.
  Mr. Dugdale: While fully appreciating the difficulties involved, might I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will give special consideration to the case of married men, many of whom have been out for a very long period, as both they and their wives at home are feeling the strain considerably?
  Mr. Eden: I know that my hon. Friend himself feels that that question itself raises certain other questions at once. We have been into this very carefully, with a desire to meet the situation, and, within the limits imposed upon us by military operations, I really think we are doing all we can.
  Sir A. Knox: Is it not the case that there is a so-called qualifying period for the R.A.F. at the present time, and would it not be better to do away with this so-called qualifying period, and to give leave to all hard cases?
  Mr. Eden: I understand that the Royal Air Force position is not so difficult.
  Mr. Bellenger: While appreciating the operational reasons which underlie the difficulty of effecting reliefs, I would ask whether my right hon. Friend will bear in mind that the longer the war goes on the more necessary it will be to effect these reliefs, in order to get the highest morale among the troops? Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are considerable troop movements going on; and would it not be possible to bring home some men on those empty troopships?
  Mr. Eden: I think that the Government understand that the longer the war lasts the more urgent will this problem become. I would invite the House to pay particular attention to one sentence in my statement, where I said that the problem is not one of shipping, but of man-power.
  Major C. S. Taylor: Is there any guaranteed period of home service for the man who has been brought back after five years' overseas service?
  Mr. Eden: I should like notice of that Question.
  Mr. Mathers: Have the investigations which have resulted in the right hon. Gentleman's reply made it clear that the five years' maximum will be capable of realisation?
  Mr. Eden: I can assure my hon. Friend that in some respects the position is better than that already. We do all we can.
  Mr. Astor: Is my right hon. Friend aware that when Army personnel are ready to go home they sometimes get less favoured means of transport than do quite junior naval and Air Force officers? Often, quite a senior Army officer is sent home round the Cape, while a naval or Air Force junior officer gets air transport. Will my right hon. Friend see that there is no such discrimination in this matter?
  Mr. Eden: I do not know about that, but generally, in my experience, the three Services get on very well together.
  Mr. Buchanan: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that in this matter men are not dealt with as individual cases, but rather by categories of years of service abroad, because if we start the process of singling out one man against another, we may get into trouble? Also, will he see that men are not merely brought home and sent abroad again, but are given a reasonable time at home when they arrive?
  Mr. Eden: As regards the first part of my hon. Friend's question, I am in entire agreement. We must stick to years rather than go by special cases. As regards the second part of his question, that is the general practice, and men do stay at home unless there is some emergency reason.
  Mr. Hogg: While recognising the very full consideration which has been given to this matter, might I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will bear in mind the hardship which has been caused to the Army as a result of these operational considerations, and whether, when the manpower situation alters, he will try to make up for that hardship in some other way?
  Mr. Driberg: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that men who have been serving in Africa and Italy and are now at home wounded are wondering anxiously whether they are going to be sent to fight against Japan when the war against Germany ends? Will he consider giving them some assurance that they will be given some priority in demobilisation or at least home service?
  Mr. Eden: No, Sir, I could not give that assurance. I think we are getting a little wide of the original questions.
  Captain Plugge: Will my right hon. Friend consider allowing men to receive money which they have put aside when serving overseas? I have had cases, which I have brought to his notice, of men who have put aside money, and have not received it.
  Mr. Speaker: That is another question.
  Mr. Molson: In view of the importance of my right hon. Friend's sympathetic reply, will he arrange to make it known to the Fourteenth Army, who are particularly affected?
  Mr. Eden: It will be given wide publicity.

  NATIONAL PRAYER
  Dr. Littleasked the Prime Minister whether, now that the invasion of the Continent has been entered upon auspiciously, a day will be set apart, preferably a week-day, when the nation shall be called to prayer and dedication.
  Mr. Eden: No, Sir. The Government do not propose to adopt this suggestion. My hon. Friend will no doubt remember
  798
  that in his broadcast message on 6th June, His Majesty The King called his people to prayer and dedication.
  Mr. Rhys Davies: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Christian clergy in Germany have been praying for victory for German arms and that our own clergy in this country have prayed to the same Almighty for victory for British arms; and will he therefore do all he can to prevent this descent to Paganism among the Christian Churches.
  Mr. Granville: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to suggest to the Prime Minister to consider composing a prayer himself, as has been done by the President of the United States?

  CROWN PROPERTY (SIGNBOARDS)
  Sir T. Mooreasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will consider introducing legislation as a war-time measure to alter the law which forbids the erection of signboards on Crown property, which, in the opinion of near-by residents, disturb the amenities of the property.
  The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): No, Sir.
  Sir T. Moore: Because of the noise I did not catch the reply.
  Mr. Hudson: The answer is "No, Sir."
  Sir T. Moore: Why this discrimination between the Salvation Army signs on their hostels about which I have informed my right hon. Friend, and defeatist signs "To let" and "To sell," which are permitted on property?
  Mr. Hudson: I understand that signs can be erected but certain conditions have to be complied with. In the case quoted by my hon. and gallant Friend the conditions had not been complied with.
  Sir T. Moore: Why this objection to the amenities being disturbed by these signs, while Hitler is destroying amenities every day?
  Mr. Sorensen: May it not be because the Salvation Army sign is that of "Blood and Fire?"

  RURAL LAND UTILISATION
  Mr. Vernon Bartlettasked the Minister of Agriculture what steps are to

  799
  be taken to assure that good farming land near towns will be reserved for agricultural purposes.
  Mr. Hudson: My rural land utilisation officers, and the regional planning officers of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Town and Country Planning, are in constant consultation with local planning authorities in regard to the exercise of their powers under the Town and Country Planning Acts in the matter referred to. My hon. Friend will understand that the object must always be to determine the best use of land in the national interest, taking all needs into account.
  Mr. Bartlett: Is the Minister aware of the very great uneasiness among all people interested in the future of agriculture from the fact that that problem is entirely left out of the Government's White Paper?
  Mr. Hudson: I do not think I could accept that. On the contrary, if my hon. Friend will read the White Paper more carefully he will see that this is dealt with particularly in paragraph 8, page ii.
  Mr. Bartlett: Very superficially.

  PILOTLESS AIRCRAFT (POST-WAR USE)
  Captain Pluggeasked the Secretary of State for Air whether the pilotless plane is being considered in connection with post-war activities; and whether plans are being made for developing it for the purpose of despatching mail over long distances at high speed and frequent intervals on regular routes.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Air (Captain Harold Balfour): Pilotless aircraft were developed and used some years before the war for certain purposes. The possibilities of such aircraft for commercial use, including the carriage of mail, are certainly not overlooked by my Department.
  Captain Plugge: In view of the knowledge we have acquired in the use of explosives, will my right hon. and gallant Friend consult with the Postmaster-General over the result of the experiments of sending mail by rocket?
  Captain Balfour: I think there is some confusion in the mind of my hon. and
  800
  gallant Friend. Flying bombs of the kind now in use by the enemy are an entirely different proposition. They are not expected to land safely at a particular destination, and they cannot be used more than once. Commercial aircraft are expected to land at their expected destinations, and are expected to do so repeatedly.
  Mr. Denman: Would it not be unfortunate if mail addressed to Switzerland arrived in Sweden?

  JOINT PRODUCTION COMMITTEES
  Mr. Manderasked the Minister of Production to what extent joint production committees or works councils are now functioning in industry; whether the results achieved are regarded as satisfactory; and if it is proposed to retain them as a permanent feature of our industrial organisation.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Production (Mr. Garro Jones): My information is that 4,565 firms have Joint Production Committees or equivalent bodies. These Committees have been a valuable feature of industrial collaboration between managements and workpeople. They were established in the engineering and allied industries by an agreement between the Engineering and Allied Employers' National Federation and the principal trades unions concerned. That agreement terminates at the cessation of hostilities but the organisations concerned will no doubt give careful consideration to the question of its continuance after the war in the light of experience gained.
  Mr. Mander: Can my hon. Friend say what percentage the figure he gave is of the total number of firms affected by the agreement?
  Mr. Garro Jones: I do not know that I can work out the arithmetic. It might be possible to get it, if my hon. Friend will put that figure down. I have not got it in my head.
  Mr. Mander: I beg to give notice that owing to the importance of this Question, I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

  WOMEN LAND WORKERS (SHOES)
  Mr. Kirbyasked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that many

  801
  females desirous of working voluntarily on the land during their holidays hesitate to do so because of their need for strongly-built shoes to procure which they have to surrender clothing coupons; and will he try to make special arrangements for shoes in such cases to be obtained free of coupons or by the issue of special coupons to such volunteers.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Captain Waterhouse): I regret that, in view of the very limited supplies of footwear available, coupon-free shoes cannot be provided for women who volunteer for work on the land during their holidays.
  Mr. Kirby: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware of the very severe disappointment that reply will cause to the Minister of Agriculture, who is sitting alongside him?
  Captain Waterhouse: I am aware that this answer will not be popular. Unfortunately such concessions could not be confined to women, and the available supply of footwear is not sufficient to make it general.

  SCOTLAND (HOUSING APPLICATION, GLASGOW)
  Mr. Buchananasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that Robert Wallace, 438, Crown Street, Glasgow, occupies, with his wife and four children, a one-roomed house; that his name has been on the list for a house for 12 years; that his wife is an expectant mother; that his present house is overrun with rats; that he pays full rent and the authorities have advised this man to have beds constructed in the walls; and if he will cause inquiry to be made.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Westwood): As the hon. Member has been informed in the correspondence in this case, it is before Glasgow Corporation who have, however, no trace of any application by Mr. Wallace for a new house prior to February of this year. They are also unaware of any advice given to him about the construction of beds in the walls. I understand that the factor of Mr. Wallace's house had already been notified of the suspected presence of rats and that action is being taken to deal with them. Glasgow Corporation will consider Mr. Wallace's
  802
  application for a new house at the earliest possible moment in view of the overcrowded nature of his present accommodation but it is unfortunately the case that they already have on their list the names of many other families whose needs are at least as urgent and whose applications are of longer standing.
  Mr. Buchanan: Can nothing be done, not only in this case but in many others in the city of Glasgow, where children aged a few months are almost being bitten by rats, and their food destroyed? It is really a terrible thing. Will the Minister ask that something shall be done to protect these people and their food?
  Mr. Westwood: We are doing all we can in the light of the labour difficulties with which we are faced at the present time. What we have been doing is, we admit, only interim action as regards dealing with what is one of Scotland's, as well as Glasgow's greatest problems.
  Mr. Buchanan: Is there any reason why, in the meantime, young children cannot be protected against rats? Surety that can be done more effectively than is the case now?
  Mr. Westwood: I have already intimated we have taken the necessary action to deal with this particular case, so far as that aspect is concerned.
  Sir A. Beit: How does one suspect the presence of rats?

  CASUALTIES, FRANCE (HOSPITALS),
  Mr. Higgsasked the Secretary of State for War whether, as soon as possible after wounded men from the Second Front have been treated in the most accessible hospitals, they are transferred to similar institutions in the vicinity of their heroes and friends so as to make visits by the latter easy and frequent.
  The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Arthur Henderson): For the time being casualties from Normandy will have to be treated in the hospitals which can be most conveniently reached from the port of disembarkation, but as soon as circumstances permit wounded men will once more be sent to suitable hospitals as near their homes as possible. Patients requiring treatment in specialised

  803
  hospitals will continue as before to be sent to those hospitals wherever they are located.
  Mr. Edgar Granville: Is any choice given to wounded men, as was the case in the last war?
  Mr. Henderson: I should like notice of that Question.

  PROTECTED AREAS ORDER
  Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for War if be will make it possible for chief constables to exercise discretion, in cases of exceptional hardship, in the interpretation of the provisions of the recent Protected Areas Order.
  Mr. A. Henderson: As stated by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in answer to a Question on 27th April last by my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Mr. Parker), permission has been granted to certain categories of persons to enter the Protected Areas, and the police have been instructed to administer the provisions with reasonable latitude. It is not open to the police themselves to grant permission to other categories of persons in addition to these prescribed in the relevant Order, but the question whether any addition should be made to the existing categories to cover grounds of hardship not already provided for, is under examination.
  Mr. Driberg: Could the hon. and learned Gentleman say how soon the results of that examination are likely to be made known?
  Mr. Henderson: No, Sir, I cannot.
  Mr. Petherick: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that at the moment there are a number of very hard cases of persons who wish to get into these areas, and, in anticipation of a decision being reached by the Government, will he in the meantime issue instructions to chief constables that such hard cases may be sympathetically, though temporarily, dealt with?
  Mr. Henderson: I would prefer that particulars of those cases of hardships should be sent to the War Office in the first place.
  Captain Plugge: Does my hon. and learned Friend not agree that it is very difficult to frame such regulations? May I recall the case I brought to his notice of one of my constituents who was not allowed to return to her own home as a result of this Order?
  Mr. Driberg: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman not aware that if the hard cases are sent to the War Office, as he advises, the War Office say the administration of the Order is left in the hands of the chief constables, and the chief constables say that they have no discretionary powers? So what?
  Mr. Henderson: I think that if the hon. Member would follow my advice it would help matters, because it would enable the War Office, in consultation with the Home Office, to see whether it would be possible to afford facilities.

  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
  Sir Hugh O'Neill: Before the Minister of Health gives the answer to Question No. 10, which has been deferred to the end of Questions, may I raise a point of Order? Is it now to be taken as the accepted practice of this House, that any Question involving a long answer can be answered specially at the end of Questions instead of being, as used to be the case, circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT? Of course, in the case of any question of Government policy, or a matter concerning the whole country, the practice is, I think, desirable, and in that sense it has been accepted by the House. In this case however, although, no doubt, this point with which the Question is concerned is of considerable importance, it is only a local matter arising in the constituency of the hon. and gallant Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby).
  Sir A. Southby: May I point out that it is not a local matter only, but one which concerns the treatment of military personnel in any hospital?
  Mr. Speaker: So far as the point of Order is concerned, it is not for me to make any Rule. It is a matter for the discretion of the Minister concerned.
  Earl Winterton: On the point of Order, Sir. May I ask if your attention has been called to the fact that, especially during the truncated hours which we are now

  805
  sitting, important time which would otherwise be available for debate may be taken up for three-quarters of an hour or so by this habit of having long statements at the end of Questions, followed by supplementary questions? It may be a good thing, but I think your attention should be called to it.
  Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members know that I am all in favour of short speeches, short Questions, and short answers from Ministers.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Arthur Greenwood: May I ask the Leader of the House to state the Business for next week?
Mr. Eden: The Business for next week will be as follows:
Tuesday, 4th July—Supply. (15th Allotted Day), Committee. The Estimates for the Department of Agriculture for Scotland, and Public Education, Scotland, will be considered.
Wednesday, 5th July—Second Reading of the Herring Industry Bill and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Thursday, 6th July—Report and Third Reading of the Food and Drugs (Milk and Dairies) Bill.
Friday, 7th July—Supply (16th Allotted Day), Committee. The Ministry of Pensions Vote will be considered.
Mr. Buchanan: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman which Minister will be in charge of the Herring Industry Bill?
Mr. Eden: I understand it will be the Secretary of State for Scotland.
Mr. Buchanan: Would it not be convenient for someone from the Ministry of Food to be present during this Debate, because certain issues which some of us think desirable should be raised affect that Ministry? Will the right hon. Gentleman consider that the Herring Industry Bill has wider implications than the position in Scotland, and that somebody from the Food Ministry should be present?
Mr. Eden: I will certainly consider that.
Mr. Edgar Granville: Will the right hon. Gentleman say if Tuesday is to be a Scottish day?
Mr. Eden: We shall take Scottish agriculture and Scottish education on that day.
Mr. Reakes: Will the right hon. Gentleman say why such an important matter as pensions should be relegated to a Friday for discussion?
Mr. Eden: I do not understand what my hon. Friend means. Friday is a Parliamentary day.
Major Thorneycroft: May I ask a question on the Town and Country Planning Bill? Could my right hon. Friend give us an indication when it is proposed to take the Second Reading; and whether it is proposed that a day should be allotted to that Bill, between now and the end of the present series of Sittings?
Mr. Eden: I do not know that I want to commit myself. We certainly will not take the Bill before the week after next.
Mr. McNeil: Does my right hon. Friend intend to suspend the Rule on Tuesday?
Mr. Eden: If there is a wish expressed to do so, we will take soundings through the usual channels.
Mr. Molson: With regard to the Town and Country Planning Bill, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman realises that local authorities are hoping to get this Bill before the Summer Recess?
Mr. A. Bevan: Is my right hon. Friend aware that they have expressed no enthusiasm for the Bill?
Mr. Silkin: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that local authorities do not want this Bill, and are pressing for its withdrawal?

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS
That they have passed a Bill, intituled "An Act to authorise the Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses of the Borough of Loughborough to construct additional waterworks, and to confer further powers in regard to their water undertaking; to make further and better provision for the finances and the good government of the borough; and for other purposes." Loughborough Corporation Bill [Lords].

PALACE OF WESTMINSTER (ACCOMMODATION)
That they have appointed a Committee consisting of seven Lords to join with a Committee of the Commons to inquire into the accommodation in the Palace of

807
Westminster, and to report thereon, with such recommendations as appear to them desirable, pursuant to the Commons' Message on Thursday last.

AGRICULTURE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL
That they have appointed a Committee consisting of five Lords to join with a Committee of the Commons to consider the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, pursuant to the Commons' Message of yesterday; and they propose that the Joint Committee do meet in the Chairman of Committees' Committee Room on Wednesday next at Eleven o'clock.
Ordered, That the Committee appointed by this House do meet the Lords Committee as proposed by their Lordships.—[Major Sir James Edmondson.]
Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

LOUGHBOROUGH CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
Read the First time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP B).
Mr. DOUGLAS COOKEreported from the Committee on Group B of Private Bills, That, at the meeting of the Committee this day, a Message was received from the Rt. Hon. William Whiteley, Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, indicating that Mr. Ritson, one of the Members of the said Committee, was unable, on account of illness, to attend the Committee yesterday and this day.
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [14th Allotted Day]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1944.

    MINISTRY OF INFORMATION
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a further sum, not exceeding£50, be granted to His Majesty, towards defraying the charges for the Ministry of Information, Broadcasting, Propaganda and Censorship, for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1945, namely:

    Class X., Vote 8, Ministry of Information

    £10

    Class IV., Vote 12, Broadcasting

    £10

    Class X., Vote 10, Postal and Telegraph Censorship Department

    £10

    Class II., Vote 1, Foreign Office

    £10

    Class II., Vote 2, Diplomatic and Consular Establishments, &c.

    £10

    £50"

    The Minister of Information (Mr. Brendan Bracken): The Ministry of Information has been sadly neglected by this House. I think two years have gone by since its Estimates were discussed here, and I feel like a wakeful Rip Van Winkle. I hope to give the House a rather short account of the work of three large organisations for which I am responsible to Parliament. The largest of these organisations, the Postal and Telegraph Censorship, which employs four times the staff of the Ministry of Information, will be dealt with by my colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary. I shall hope to say something about the home and overseas divisions of the Ministry of Information, and, subject to security considerations, I shall have something to say about the Political Warfare Executive. Admirers of the B.S.C. will not forgive me if I fail to give some account of that august corporation.
    I begin by dealing with some of the home duties of the Ministry of Information, of which I can only pick out a few. Let me once again explain that, at home, the Ministry of Information is the servant of all Government Departments. Nearly all Government Departments have to use publicity campaigns to tell the public what they would like them to do and
    822
    why; for the Government have a good deal of explaining, appealing and persuading to do in wartime. Obviously it would be wrong if there were "free-for-all" competition between Government Departments 'for the attention of the public, and for the very limited advertising space available in the Press. What the Ministry of Information does besides executing the greater part of these campaigns is to co-ordinate the Government's publicity as a whole and to give priority to the most urgent campaigns. Our object is to make the best use of the restricted means of advertisement, to keep the various campaigns running at the right temperature, and to make sure that the public is not confused by too much exhortation. All this work is done in close co-operation with the Public Relations Officers of the various Ministries and with the advice of the experts of the advertising profession. I do not intend to say much about the Ministry's regional organisation, because hon. Members are familiar with its work in their constituencies. All I wish to say is that in these home front campaigns we rely largely on our regional offices to carry the campaign message into every home in the country.
    I turn to the pleasant subject of books. The Ministry of Information has invented a new technique in publishing, and when our bodies lie mouldering in the grave I hope that fact will not he forgotten. Our official war books are a new kind of book. Like documentary films, they present in print and in picture a conspectus of the many sides of Britain's war achievement. The home sales of these books exceed 23,000,000 copies. Overseas these books have also had their successes. There is time for only one instance. Our book on Combined Operations sold 350,000 copies in the United States in the last year, and it is being translated into twelve languages. The work of producing these books is vast and complicated. The texts are written, checked and re-checked in collaboration with the Government Departments concerned, sometimes twice, and with several Government Departments and with several branches of them, and with an infinitude of security and similar authorities. I want to make it clear that we do not neglect the opportunities that private publishers offer. We have published

    823
    many books of our own, but we have also, since the war began, placed twice as many books with private publishers. Among the many forms of private enterprise to which the Ministry is indebted I wish to put on record that publishers have been our faithful friends and allies.
    Let me turn to the subject of films. During the past year the Ministry's Film Division has arranged for the production of no fewer than 160 films for English-Speaking audiences. The public reception for most of those films belies their dreary designation—"documentaries." It is worth while recording that the so-called documentary film is a peculiarly British development. Years before the war, a few far-seeing Government Departments encouraged the work of a handful of pioneers in the making of documentaries. The Ministry of Information took over their work in 1939, and nowadays we are beginning to see how important a contribution their work has been to the conceptions and technique of commercial film production. I think that many people in the British film industry would agree that in the past four and a half years the Crown Film Unit has played an essential part in the development of a recognisably nation-style of film-making. No fewer than 338 foreign language versions have been made in the past year out of 96 films. These versions have amounted to a total length of over 50,000,000 feet. The Ministry of Information Central Film Library has lent more than 100,000 films to borrowers at home and abroad during the last year.
    I am going to say a word about that small development, which I hope will grow. A small staff comprises the Colonial Film Unit, which has produced in the past year 28 one-reel films and 20 news-reels. With the help of the Colonial Office this Unit has taken on the task of training resident officers to add filmmaking to their multifarious labours. They have been supplied with cinecameras and with quantities of 16 millimetre raw stock. So long as the war lasts we have to look to these part-time film makers to provide films with an African background, but I believe that when the war is over this Unit will, under the benevolent eye of the Colonial Office, greatly increase its activities. It is highly desirable that the British Empire should be given more news of what is happening.
    824
    Finally, a brief word about the preparation of films for liberated Europe. The Ministry is ready to provide each country, as it is liberated, first with films which will show the part played by Britain in the war since Goebbels' blanket of darkness spread over their heads. Secondly, we shall supply them with their own versions of a large number of British entertainment and feature films. The first batch of French films has already been sent into France, and films in fifteen other languages are awaiting distribution. I do not wish to give the House the impression that the Ministry's film-making activities have been carried on in competition with the industry. That would be entirely wrong. On the contrary, with great good will the British film industry have in the past year made four full-length films at our instigation. In return, we have done our best to help them in one way or another with the production of 38 commercial films.
    I should like to spend a great deal of time in discussing other home activities of the Ministry of Information. Were there no other speakers to-day I could go on for quite a long time, but, as I believe the B.B.C. and many other aspects of my Department are to be discussed, I must leave the home side and turn to a bigger part of the Ministry's work. I refer now to our foreign activities. The Ministry has altogether some 120 outposts overseas, including 49 established missions, and there are about go other centres, mainly in the Dominions and Colonies, to which the Ministry regularly send publicity material. Through newspapers, broadcasts, films, books, photographs and exhibitions our staffs abroad have secured in most countries adequate publicity for Britain's war effort. London has, of course, to supply them with a vast amount of material, and to provide immediate answers to their incessant inquiries about every development in the war or in home, imperial or foreign affairs. I am often staggered by the variety of the needs of our servants serving overseas. For instance, a Ministry of Information representative in a country that has many newspapers may wire for photographs of the latest Spitfire or the latest big gun or tank; but from a representative in a primitive country, or, I might say, a country not yet contaminated by mechanioal knowledge, we are asked not to send photographs of aeroplanes or guns. They say: "Send us some photographs of big British horses and big British cattle."
    Mr. Messer: What about British asses?
    Mr. Bracken: We are coming to that later. The hon. Member has no monopoly. The people in those countries say they want to see big animals because it strengthens their feeling that a country which produces such fine beasts must win the war soon. Our overseas representatives need no reminding of the wisdom of Lecky's remark that facts and arguments, however true, which are not suited to the "climate of opinion" in which they are produced may have no influence on the course of events or ideas. That is the motto written over the humble offices of all gentlemen connected with foreign publicity in the Ministry of Information. They take the mass of background facts and stories with which we provide them and, through their many contacts, this mass is given the right shapes and right colours which the local Press and radio require.
    It is wrong to imagine that our posts abroad are engaged in distributing news red hot from the battlefields. That is done by the great news agencies and by the Press and radio of the world. It would be equally wrong to think of our representatives as doling out the raw meat of propaganda. It is their job to present a steady picture of British life and British achievements. They provide the British background to the news, the British comments and the British angle on every event of importance in the war. The life of a British Press attach— in a foreign capital is a hard one. He is a man of all work. He keeps in contact with local editors and broadcasters; and anyone who has had any experience of keeping in contact with editors and broadcasters knows that that is a pretty exacting occupation. He sees that British news gets a fair showing; he arranges the distribution of feature articles, of photographs and of films; he supervises the work of sections and outposts under him which are often scattered over hundreds of miles of territory; he keeps in constant touch with the British Ambassador or Minister and with the local British community, whose cooperation is of the greatest value to him.
    I would say a word about British communities in connection with this war. In the darkest days of the war, when, first of all, the battle was going badly and the Ministry of Information was being much
    826
    criticised—I cannot say which tragedy was the worse—British communities in various parts of the world put up large sums of money to enable us to do our work properly. Just as Parliament was stingy our patriotic overseas communities were generous, and that has been a great advantage to us.
    Sir Henry Morris-Jones: Could the right hon. Gentleman name some of them?
    Mr. Bracken: Later on. All this is done according to pattern. It is based upon a long-term publicity plan for each foreign country drawn up in London in co-operation with the Foreign Office. The Press attach—'s many activities amid the hurly-burly of his foreign capital always carefully follow this broad detailed plan prepared in conjunction with the Foreign Office. In the days of Germany's succession of tremendous victories our representatives abroad had the hardest of tasks in persuading people dazed by German triumphs that Britain would stand fast against the greatest military machine in history In those days German propaganda was formidable. It had the agreeable ingredient of victory, garnished, of course, by lies and boasts. Our representatives abroad now dwell in the sunlight of Britain's victories, but their work is still exacting. Britain's bearing under terrible blows, her successes against apparently hopeless odds, have evoked such an interest in our people and our institutions that it is often beyond the power of Ministry of Information representatives abroad to satisfy the demand for English books, films, newspapers and journals. I wish that I could give the Committee a full account of the work of each of our branches abroad, but that task would occupy too much of the time of the Committee.
    As I have been told that many Members are very interested in the doings of our staff in the United States of America and in Russia, I shall begin by dealing with the work of the British Information Service in New York and in Washington and in the often lonely outposts where our people work. Britons often solemnly lament the American ignorance of our Constitution, institutions, and way of life. Most of those worthy lamenters are equally ignorant of American affairs, and though I think this mutual ignorance is deporable, I do not see how the small

    827
    staff of the British Information Service in the United States can ever redeem the failures of more than a century of neglectful or biased historical teaching on both sides of the Atlantic. I am often told by people who pride themselves on being publicity experts that we should buy a lot of time on the American radio and have a lot of advertising space in American newspapers in order, to use their own verbiage, "to keep putting it across."
    These advocates of high-pressure salesmanship know very little about the United States. The American radio, Press and public are allergic to crude foreign propaganda, indeed, I think to all foreign propaganda. It has been suggested to me that the British Information Service should prepare a weekly "write-up" of Britain, for circulation to the American Press. I know what would be the fate of such a "write-up." American editors have outsize waste-paper baskets. The British Information Service is more of a reference office than a propaganda machine. Its New York office alone answers hundreds of questions every week from journalists, broadcasters, university professors, and clubs and societies. These inquirers can do more with the answers they get than thousands of official British propagandists in the United States could do. Notes and papers and other printed material about Britain's war effort are now supplied on request by the British Information Service at the rate of 4,000,000 copies a year. I have read criticisms of the American Press that they give little space to Britain's affairs. All I can say in answer to that criticism is, that for many years before the war I have been a careful reader of the American Press, and in those days, when newsprint abounded, it was quite clear that the American Press gave far more news about Britain, than British newspapers gave about the United States.
    American newspapers have always maintained a large number of correspondents in London, and these journalists, who are trusted by their readers, are able to present a far more effective picture of Britain than the whole race of propagandists put together. When people indulge in large generalisations about American newspapers and magazines they are, obviously, unaware of the fact that there are more than 25,00o newspapers and perioicals of one sort or another in the United States. A great number
    828
    of these papers publish little about foreign affairs, and neither the British Information Service nor any other institution can persuade them to do so. But the American magazines and newspapers which do give up a fair part of their space to foreign affairs give a fair, and, I might say, a generous, share of it to publicity to Britain.
    There are 925 licensed radio stations in the United States—remember those figures. Thank goodness there is only one B.B.C.; if I had to answer in this House for the doings of 925 radio stations, I should long since have gone to another and a better world. Of those 925 licensed radio stations, to which some 90,000,000 people listen regularly, material provided by the British Information Service is regularly used by over 700. The most gratifying feature of the British Information Service work is that an ever-increasing number of editors, journalists and radio commentators ask for information. The best way in which the British story can be told in the United States is through these friends, who are practical men and know what their public wants. And finally, I wish, once again, to pay the best possible tribute to the splendid work of the British Information Service in America. When this war is over, and people have an opportunity to examine their work in the light of history, they will give them, tremendous praise. Not a single one has made an indiscretion in the United States, and remember, publicity people are supposed to be indiscreet. On the contrary, they have set themselves out to tell the story to the United States and they are most respected by every element that is worthy in journalism, in the radio industry, and in the film industry.
    Having finished with the United States, let me turn to Russia. The Ministry's work in the immense territories of our other great Ally, Russia, has presented us with an entirely different set of tasks. It would be platitudinous to recount the differences of language, of custom, of forms of government and—what affects our work most of all—of news and information arrangements. I am not making an exaggerated claim when I describe the Ministry's staff in Russia as real pioneers. No body, private or official, has ever before had this chance of telling the people of Russia about life in Britain and about British achievements. Our Press Depart-

    829
    ment has been greatly encouraged by the intense Soviet interest, I might call it curiosity, about Britain. Our weekly paper, "The British Ally," grows in popularity and it is estimated that it has 12 readers for each copy. It is "the most dog-eared paper in the world." Its editor receives a large and appreciative postbag, which would rejoice the heart of many an editor in England. By a new agreement with the Soviet Government, we have recently doubled the number of copies printed. They allowed us to print up to 25,000, and we asked for 10 or 15 times that number, and the Soviet Government have said that we can double that number. Now we have 50,000, which is believed to be a small circulation but which, if you know how it is read in Russia, is a very creditable achievement. It is only at the beginning of its development. Our people have only recently got away from the atmosphere of Kuibishev to the business atmosphere of Moscow.
    The Committee will not wish to be burdened with details of the newspapers, feature articles, books, photographs and films which we make available for distribution in Russia. I will mention only that our Russian versions of the films "Desert Victory" and "In Which We Serve" have been received with applause by an immense number of cinema audiences throughout the Soviet Union, and that our recent publication, "The British Chronicle," which is a sort of digest of speeches, official documents, and articles printed in the British Press, has been warmly welcomed. We -take the trouble to include a number of speeches by Members of Parliament, for which we do not pay, and that greatly interests Russians, who are far more serious than any people of whom I have ever heard in the history of mankind. It would be foolhardy to claim that our small staff in Moscow, in the course of three years' work, has succeeded in undoing the misunderstandings of a generation, but this I will say; In arduous conditions and in surroundings entirely new to it, our Press Department has made a highly praiseworthy beginning in telling our Russian Ally the facts about Britain and Britain's war achievements.
    Mr. A. Bevan: Is the Minister able to say anything about Russia's reception of our library of war photographs?
    Mr. Bracken: I think that all the photographs we have sent out to Russia have been very well received.
    Now I turn to the non-controversial topic of the B.B.C. The B.B.C. reached the age of discretion—or at any rate celebrated its 21st birthday—this year. Friends and critics, for the B.B.C. has an embarrassment of both, have agreed on one thing. The accident of scientific invention has laid on the B.B.C. the responsibility of carrying the British idea of things into the homes of a large part of the world. That is why any British Government must watch the B.B.C., but not all its doings should be watched. One large part of the B.B.C.'s business is to provide entertainment, and that is not my business as a Minister of Information. Supervising entertainment, from grand opera to crooning—the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham and Worthing (Earl Winterton) is interested in that subject—is not a matter of State, and whether the B.B.C. does it well or badly, I think nobody will dispute that its entertainment programmes are better left to the ordinary give-and-take public criticism. News and views are another matter. About them the Committee has a right to know that the B.B.C. is running on right lines. I maintain that those lines are being followed. They are common-sense ones. The B.B.C. has its own correspondents; it has the same access as does the Press to official reports and so on, and its bulletins are prepared from these sources by journalists without axe to grind. The best way of making sure that the truth is told in a newspaper or in a broadcast news bulletin is to leave the job to experienced journalists, whose sole duty is to see that the public get the facts. Any attempt to suppress or distort the truth would, in the long run, simply discredit the B.B.C. The one brake that obviously has had to be put on it is that of security, which, of course, applies equally to the Press. What the Censors believe would help the enemy cannot be said.
    The importance of this way of handling broadcast news is best brought out by remembering how completely the B.B.C. is a world service. At home we naturally tend to think largely in terms of the nine o'clock news bulletin. We are apt to forget that after "God save the King" at the end of the midnight bulletin the B.B.C. is very far from going to bed.

    831
    Within half-an-hour of the close-down at home, another bulletin is on the air to America, and so on, at close intervals, all through the 24 hours. Every part of the English-Speaking world hears bulletins from the B.B.C. in the same way as we do at home. And those bulletins reach audiences who are under no obligation whatsoever to listen to a British presentation of the news. They have only to switch their sets in order to hear half-adozen rival presentations. All the evidence shows, however, that the B.B.C. is heard with belief and is, without exaggeration, regarded as the most truthful news broadcasting service all over the world. Since D-Day there has been a widely favourable reaction to this service from all parts of the world. The B.B.C., in fact, began planning its system of war reports more than a year ago, and I suggest that its arrangements have more than justified themselves.
    Now I come to that very mysterious organisation called the British Political Warfare Executive. Every day that takes us nearer victory has shown an increase in British political warfare activity, both on the radio and in leaflets. One of the chief developments of the past year has been a very close co-operation with the United States. An American broadcasting station in Europe has been set working closely with the B.B.C., but expressing American policy. Our American Allies have been given greater opportunities for relaying their programmes on British wavelengths, and they, for their part, give us facilities on their station here. Our combined efforts have overcome Dr. Goebbels' attempts to stop the ears of the peoples of Europe by jamming our broadcasts. The European service of the B.B.C. to-day transmits 179 programmes a day in 24 languages. Against this barrage, the Germans have been forced to extreme measures. Not only do they inflict savage penalties on listeners in Europe, but they also confiscate radio-sets, and in some areas cut off the whole supply of electricity. In spite of their efforts, the Voice of London is still eagerly listened to. When sets were seized, listening groups were formed which listen in with secret receiving sets and pass the word round. The underground movement everywhere is dependent for its information and for the news which it prints in
    832
    its clandestine Press on what it gets from here—and I think the Committee will agree with me that the underground Press in Europe is a heroic and splendid thing.
    Broadcasting has been supplemented by an ever-increasing number of leaflets and some of these leaflets are like miniature newspapers. A year ago the dropping of leaflets was done entirely by the Royal Air Force. It amounted to 54,250,000 leaflets a month including those which we dropped for our American Allies. To-day the Royal Air Force in conjunction with the United States Air Force drop 73,500,000 leaflets a month. These leaflets are dropped over France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Norway and, of course, over Germany itself. During D-Day and the night before over 12,000,000 leaflets were dropped. All these leaflets are produced in this country and are printed on British presses. The resources of our broadcasting and leaflet organisations are at the complete disposal of General Eisenhower, the Supreme Commander. He has made liberal use of them, and the highest tribute I can pay to the staff of the Political Warfare Executive and of the B.B.C. is to say that the Supreme Commander has every reason so far to be pleased with their zealous work.
    I have already told the Committee that the Ministry of Information has enough work to do; in fact, I think we have far too many responsibilities. When, a few weeks before the first convoy of American troops came to this country, the Ministry of Information was asked to become responsible for arranging hospitality for them, I knew we had neither the time nor the man-power to undertake such an important task. I also knew that we had no accommodation for a vast new bureaucracy to undertake this work, nor had we any desire to add to our staff, but the task was forced upon us. How did we set about it? We asked the help of all the great voluntary societies in this country who have branches in all our towns and in many of our villages. And here is something that will shock our hon. Friends opposite. We sought the help of the City because, as the Committee knows, the big banks have branches in every town and village in the country and our bankers responded with alacrity.
    Mr. Messer: They take an interest in everything.
    Mr. Bracken: I will make another confession to the Committee. We then sought the aid of the Brewers' Society for, as the Committee will understand, they maintain far more establishments throughout the country than even the banks do, and they are even more popular.
    Mr. Ivor Thomas: And with considerable liquid assets.
    Mr. Bracken: They, too, showed the greatest zeal and generosity. All these organisations, working through their representatives in all parts of the country, were able to see that out of the limited hospitality resources in Britain the Americans were treated as they deserved to be treated—as honoured guests. I need hardly say that, from the earliest days, the American Red Cross was at work in this country providing the fine clubs which you see everywhere for American officers and men. Our work supplements theirs, and in every aspect of it we enjoy their co-operation.
    Now, regular meetings of all the voluntary societies, to which the American Red Cross and the British Army Welfare Department send representatives, are held in the Ministry of Information in order to ensure that all offers of hospitality are co-ordinated and that cases of neglect are remedied. The Ministry of Information staff for this tremendous job of work consists of exactly seven persons. Our experience in this matter of arranging hospitality for the Americans is one that I commend to the Committee. It proves that if the British public are asked to do a job in the national interest, they can do it better than a new recruitment of thousands of State employees. Through the Council of Voluntary Societies and the other organisations which have been set up, the Ministry is better qualified than any other body to answer a small number of vocal and unjust criticisms of the conduct of American troops in this country. There was, of course, a very small proportion of misconduct, but if we were to send hundreds of thousands of British troops to the United States I doubt not that there would be some criticism of the behaviour of a small proportion of them. Speaking with the fullest information provided for me by the voluntary societies I can say that the United States Army has made a splendid impression on our people. Their gaiety and
    834
    kindliness will never be forgotten by the millions in Britain who have had the honour of meeting them.
    As many hon. Members obviously wish to speak in this Debate, I must not take up much more time. I shall have to answer, I suppose, a sizeable measure of criticism. But before I sit down I think the Ministry's staff deserves a word of acknowledgement. They have worked long hours without. thought of official time-keeping, and they have done it with enthusiasm and a toleration even for each other's shortcomings that, frankly, has surprised me. There is combustible material about, when a large force of professional publicists is banded together in one Department—for I am afraid that I must be so unfair to our critics in this Committee, as to admit that the Ministry of Information is not any longer a nest of amateur singing-birds. Moreover, even when, by chance, they agree among themselves as to what ought to be done, they are little likely to be able to carry it out without a harassing course of discordant instructions from those more directly inspired in other Government Departments or the public outside. I do not think that our staff would have held together and done good work under such conditions if they had not been animated by a real belief in the value of the work they are doing for the country, and, as I see it, they have been justified in that belief. We need not argue whether the evasive word "propaganda" is a proper description of what we have been trying to do, but those who have honestly devoted their energies and their talents to the task of illuminating, by all modern devices of publicity, the majestic panorama of the British at war, the British at home, and the British overseas, have no reason to be anything but proud of their own work and service.
    Mr. Burgin: I am sure the whole Committee will feel that the Minister has made a substantial contribution to the war effort by his speech to-day. Surely, we shall all be agreed that the story of achievement, in making known to the world Britain's part in the war, to which the Minister has called attention, has been well worth hearing. I hope that the Committee will share the view of my hon. Friends that it has been both useful and convenient that this Vote should have been put down to-day, and

    835
    perhaps the Committee will feel that that is especially so, in view of the number of Votes that have been put down so that the discussion may be as general as possible. I shall, if I may, call attention to several specific matters. I have had the advantage recently of travelling widely on the American Continent. I shall be able to pay my personal tribute to a number of those to whom the Minister has himself paid tribute, and I wish to tell the Committee what it means to live in a country controlled by military dictatorship, where there is complete and absolute censorship over the spoken and the written word. Almost all the Republics of Latin America are complete instances of Nazi or Fascist control——
    Earl Winterton: Surely my right hon. Friend does not mean to suggest that Brazil should be included in the Fascist States?
    Mr. Burgin: I am being very careful in my words. I am saying that in almost all the Republics of Latin America there is military dictatorship, complete and absolute censorship, and immense restriction on either the right of public speech——
    Earl Winterton: It is not true; it is an absurd statement.
    Mr. Burgin: —or the rights of the Press. If the noble Lord will allow me to make my speech in my own way, I will deal with Brazil when I come to it. I have used the expression "almost" and I have a knowledge of geography.
    The Minister showed by his reports the immense width of the work of his Department, and he rightly judged the tone and temper of the Committee by giving many facts on that side of the Ministry's work, which is concerned with informing the world what happens. I understand that another Minister is to deal with that work on the side of restrictions and of censorship. I propose, with the approval of the Committee I hope, to speak for a few minutes on the elementary rights of freedom of speech and freedom of the Press, rights hardly won on the Floor of this House, and in the law courts, for the last 300 years, and rights of such value that the British public is determined to cause them to be restored just as soon as that can possibly be done. The first part of my
    836
    remarks—in part historical, in part analytical—will therefore be devoted to the need, as I see it, for the restoration of the freedom of the Press and the abolition of censorship at the earliest possible moment.
    Many glorious pages of history are being written to-day, but I venture to think none is more glorious than that which depicts the daily doings of the ordinary member of the British public, man, woman and child alike. What a splendid contribution is made by those setters of public opinion, the office-cleaner, the milkman, the postman, drivers and conductors of public service vehicles, and people behind bookstalls. What a wonderful part is being played by the women of Britain, of all classes, and throughout the whole country. What are the features of the life of the average British to-day in our midst? What would impress an ordinary impartial visitor? There is a certain quiet pursuit of a dogged purpose; there is a robust common sense, a healthy trust in the leader of the Armed Forces, and in the leaders of the nation; a trust in the common sense and the normal reaction of their neighbours; and a quiet confidence in the righteousness of their cause. On all sides there is a determination on the part of the average man and woman to see this thing through to the end once and for all. May I paraphrase Shelley:
    People of Britain, heirs of glory,
    Heroes of unwritten story,
    Nurslings of one mighty Mother,
    Hopes of her, and one another.
    How rare are the instances of bad behaviour on the part of the average member of the public. How rarely do you hear any unfortunate, and still more rarely any reprehensible, comment in a bus, or train, or street. Is it not the experience of most of us that when any such thing occurs the other people in the train or bus or street can safely be left to put the wrongdoer right? No advice is needed in these things. The heart of the British public is sound, is politically well-informed, and asks only to be given the truth and the reason. It may then safely be left to conjugate the verb of how to live soundly and sanely, and how to go about its daily task.
    Where else in the world can the people be taken into confidence to the extent that is our daily experience in the United Kingdom? Where else are the lives of those in authority so perfectly preserved

    837
    by the populace itself? Where else are the police less armed and more understanding? Where else is there anything like the same confidence in the sanity and the sensible behaviour of the crowd? But these attributes, to us who know, are no accident; they are effects, the causes of which were hammered out in Parliament and the law courts three centuries ago. The British public requires no Ministerial advice, nor any other instruction, to tell them what is good for them to know or hear or learn or read or discuss. The British public requires no education as to the horrors of censorship, or as to the value of the freedom of the Press and freedom of speech. The British public knows the importance of the inlet valve of information being open and free, and knows how to dispose of such useless elements as hot air. The British public is not in the infant class of constitutional law and reform; they are post-graduates in the liberties—of some of which they are now temporarily deprived, as they are persuaded, for a good reason—which they have enjoyed uninterruptedly for 300 years, since the time of the Stuarts, and the quarrel of King and Parliament. Let us see the matter in its right proportions. For five years of war we have been deprived of liberties which were enjoyed for 300 years. The proportion is one in 6o—deprivation for one minute, and enjoyment for 59 minutes of every hour. It is vital for us to-day to bear that thought in mind and to realise how much we are trustees of these hard-won liberties of the past, and how much the world looks to us to preserve and maintain intact those liberties for future generations.
    I make these opening comments as a prelude to the examination of the question of the future of the Ministry, once the emergency has passed. In the last war, as the historian puts it, the march of events slowly forced the Government to appreciate the efficacy of propaganda and some serious effort was begun at a late stage on the British side. For far too long, says the historian, the British Government neglected propaganda, both as a defensive and offensive weapon, gravely under-estimating its effect. The first approach in the last war was the Department known as Wellington House, under the late Mr. C. F. G. Masterman, a Member of this House. Then a Department of Information was set up in the Foreign Office with Sir Edward Carson
    838
    (later Lord Carson) as Minister, and Mr. John Buchan, as he then was, as head of the Department, and, later still, Crewe House, with Lord Northcliffe, to deal with propaganda in enemy countries.
    It was only in February, 1918, nine months before the end of the first world war, before the Armistice of 1918, that a Ministry of Information, so-called, was set up under the present Lord Beaver-brook. Hon. Members will forgive me if f remind them, for political memories are proverbially short, of how the matter developed in the present war. After the occupation of Prague by Hitler in the spring of 1939, preparations on all sides were very accelerated, and, on 15th June, 1939, as reported in HANSARD, questions were answered by the then Prime Minister as to the Ministry of Information. The right hon. Gentelman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. A. Greenwood) asked what was intended, and the information was given by the Prime Minister that a Department of the Foreign Office was being set up, and that if this country were engaged in a war, a full Ministry of Information would at once be established. There were interesting questions and answers as to the duration of the Ministry. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield asked:
    "Will the Prime Minister see that the activities will be confined in peace time pur6.y to foreign information; then there will be no attempt, in time of peace, to interrupt the work of the Press or any legitimate activities in this country."
    The Prime Minister replied:
    "With regard to peace, this would be concerned solely with overseas publicity. There will be no interference with the Press of this country by the Department."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th June, 1939, Vol. 349, c. 1499.]
    It is interesting to recall that that series of questions was answered practically three months prior to the outbreak of the present war.
    Apart from these early indications, the Ministry of Information, as we now know it, derives its legal existence from the Ministry of Information Statutory Rule and Order, 1939, No. 1189, and that Order, in turn, derives its validity from the Ministers of the Crown Emergency Appointments Act, 1939. The interesting thing for the Committee to realise is that the Ministers of the Crown Act is a permanent Act, which does not come to an end with the emergency, but the Ministers

    839
    to whom power is given under that Act are dealt with by Orders in Council. I remind the Committee that the Act says:
    "His Majesty may, by Order in Council, direct that this Act shall apply to any Minister of the Crown appointed for the purpose of exercising functions connected with the prosecution of any war in which His Majesty may be engaged."
    You have a permanent Act to give the power, and the power springs into existence during, and only during, the continuation of a war, and it is under that Section of that Act that the Statutory Rule and Order, bringing the Ministry of Information into existence, was made.
    It is wise to begin at the beginning. Almost every matter that comes within the range of the Minister's restrictive powers involves this question of constitutional law, and I thought it worth while to recall this matter to the memory of the Committee. There is no constitutional right, as we understand it in this democratic Britain, of greater importance than the freedom of speech. The regulations, of which there are so many and with which this Committee is so familiar, are all made under another Act of Parliament, the Emergency Powers Defence Act, 1939. That is an Act which endures only until the emergency is determined by Order in Council. The curious thing about that second Act is that it is extra-territorial. It applies to British ships, aircraft, and so on, wherever they may be, instead of, as is usual with an Act of Parliament, applying only to the territorial limits of the country in which the law is passed. Are there, then, any functions of the Ministry of Information, as we understand it, which ought to extend beyond the lifetime of the emergency? Censorship? Certainly not. Control of the Press? Certainly not.
    Mr. Bracken: May I interrupt the right hon. Member to say that we have no control over any part of the Press?
    Mr. Burgin: I am grateful to the Minister for his observation. It was a careless remark of mine, and what I should have said was the control of the material reaching the Press. It was merely elliptical and I am sure we are entirely at one on this matter. I have made a slip and I have made a correction. Ought there to be reasonable regional organisation after
    840
    the war? I should have thought not. Ought there to be committees for the collection of information, snoopers for the Ministry? I should have thought not. Ought there to be a headquarters administration? I should have thought not.
    I am giving my own opinion, but, with the preliminary history of the Ministry being based upon questions and answers to the effect that there should be no censorship in time of peace, a case is made out for the greater part, if not the whole, of the activities of the Ministry of Information coming to an end with the emergency itself. There are some hon. Members in this Committee who attach very great value to the Propaganda Department of the Foreign Office, and I want to make clear at once that no one who is jealous of the reputation of Great Britain, in the vanguard of democratic countries, can fail to estimate the enormous importance of the story of Britain's achievements always being told. But the point that I am trying to make is that that does not come, as I understand it, under the functions of the Ministry of Information in time of peace, but is an adjunct of foreign policy and ought to be dealt with, in my respectful submission, by a Department of the Foreign Office in the way which has been done hitherto. I want the Committee to hear my point of view that, when the safety of the State is at stake, the robust politically-minded citizens of Britain are prepared to forgo many of their peace-time liberties in the interests of a still greater freedom, the freedom of their country from defeat. But, once the safety of the State is assured—and to that safety it is the common people, the robust politically-minded citizens, who make the greatest contribution —there is no reason why those peace-time freedoms should not again be placed in the people's hands. There will be an immediate demand after the war for a restoration of as many of the peace-time freedoms as possible, and to as great an extent as possible. As I see it, in the fifth year of the war, the three Ministries which come nearest the home and heart of every citizen are the Ministry of Food, the Ministry of Fuel and Power and the Ministry of Information. To be comfortably fed and reasonably warm is the right way in which to receive good news, because then it seems even better and also to receive bad news, because then it does not seem so bad.

    841
    What I should like to do now would be to prepare some sort of balance sheet of the Ministry of Information's activities. In my judgment, encouragement to well-doing in any walk of life is more effective than criticism of shortcomings, so I would like to start on the credit side. I think the Ministry must be credited—besides much else that other speakers will bring out—at least with certain practical achievements. It has achieved an immense performance of which the country knows nothing, and suspects less, a performance which, one day, when it is capable of being disclosed, will reaffirm the confidence the British public has in the way the nation's affairs are conducted. For reasons of security there are many things which the Minister has been unable to tell the Committee. I suspect their existence and I give credit in advance for all that volume of necessary work which, for security reasons, cannot be disclosed, but of the existence of which I am profoundly assured.
    In the second place there has been a prodigious amount of thoughtful and well-planned hospitality shown to visitors, to Members of both Houses, to countless deputations, missions and similar travelling bodies, which has contributed to the better understanding and knowledge of Britain in the front line. One of the first sub-divisions of the Ministry of Information set up in the last war, in February, 1918, was the hospitality section. The Government of the day realised the enormous importance of giving access to distinguished visitors to our armament works, our aeroplane factories, our ports and harbours and our normal method of carrying on the State's life. In this war there has been an immense volume of that Government hospitality extended through the Minister of Information. No doubt a great many Members of the Committee have enjoyed visits to factories and other places by invitation of the Minister.
    Thirdly, there is the matter to which the Minister himself called attention, the publication of certain books. I think that the great number and variety of these excellent descriptive booklets of Britain's contribution to the war, wonderfully illustrated and superbly produced, has made an incalculable effect. It has reinforced the world's opinion of Britain as a country of quality. Time and time again, from the tip of Canada to the
    842
    South of Brazil, I was asked, "Where do you get the paper? Where do you get the technical information? Where do you get the photographic material? Why have you kept this in the background for so long? Why are we not getting more of these marvellously produced booklets which are such a great delight to receive?" I think that in some of these booklets there is something even more than technical superiority; there is the actual touch of vision, for the story is told in the medium of the cold and printed word, in a way which has excited the admiration of the world.
    As number four, I would put the making known in a vast number of languages, over a well-integrated and boldly-conceived wireless programme, not only Britain's case but the Allies' performances. As the Minister will realise, it is by no means only Britain's case which is put forward over the B.B.C. network; it is the Allied case and that has a great impression on the minds of countless millions of people. In drawing up the balance sheet of the Ministry, we should pay the Ministry a tribute for the stimulating effect on production caused in workshops by the simple expedient of bringing the armaments-worker in the factory, and the user of that armament in the field, into contact. Such visits have been organised on an immense scale by the Ministry's officials. I have found myself, and no doubt Members of the Committee have, too, in going to explosives factories to see what the Minister of Labour has called "the back-room boys," or women, that a great deal of encouragement could be given by letting these people know that they were as essential to those in the firing line, as the firing line was essential to their own protection. I think a definite tribute ought to be paid to the Ministry as a means of stimulating and increasing production in the armament workshops of our country.
    On the debit side I would say to the Committee that there are two fields of knowledge which, in my judgment, are imperfectly developed. When so much has been achieved, it seems almost ungenerous to suggest that there are sonic fields which are not fully developed, but I think there are two great chapters to which the Minister and the thoughtful heads of the Department might give more

    843
    attention. I refer to knowledge of our enemies, and knowledge of our friends. I think there is abysmal ignorance on the part of the average Britisher, about the real character of Germany and the Germans, and Japan and the Japanese. Whether you call it "the evil we fight," or "our enemies," I think there is need for education of our people in the Machiavellian designs which are still held by the German and Japanese leaders. If things go against these two countries, as they are so obviously going against them at the moment, I think you will find longer-range plans and longer-range schemes in progress and it is essential that some organ of instruction to the British public should be actively at work to counter-balance the study of future possibilities, which we know to be going on.
    In one of the comments made by a B.B.C. speaker from Normandy in the last day or two, there was a reference to the instruction of 10,000,000 of the youth of Germany in Nazi doctrines, and, in the speaker's view—and he was a prisoner—they would make better soldiers, even than Germany's present Army. A whole chapter awaits the Minister's attention as regards the instruction of the people of this land in the real German and Germany and in the real Japanese and Japan. Much requires to be done in getting this over to our population, partially tired, partially indifferent, partially separated by the accident of geography. Many of them are not keen readers or students and most of them are rather inclined to believe that mankind cannot sink to the depths, to which we know the leaders of Germany and Japan are capable of sinking.
    Earl Winterton: In this war, and in the last.
    Mr. Burgin: Yes, and I thank the Noble Lord for that intervention. It is surprising how quickly the lessons of the last war have been forgotten.
    The Minister dealt at some length with the position between the United Kingdom and the United States of America and said, with great force, that for many years the Press of the two countries had failed to enlighten their peoples upon the habits and peculiarities of the companion race on the other side of the Atlantic. I am
    844
    shocked at the lack of knowledge in our own country, about the workings of the United States Constitution. I find very few people who are aware that the members of the Cabinet of Mr. Roosevelt's Administration are not members of either House, are not responsible to anybody other than the President himself, are not liable to be called upon to account for anything they do or spend, or for any advice they give, or for any executive action which they take. It is an astonishing conception to British Parliamentarians, when Speaking on the American Continent, to find that the words they use in reference to a democratic institution have not only dangerous implications but are completely out of place in reference to the Government of the United States. So I say, contenting myself with it as a chapter heading for the Ministry, that I hope that, besides knowledge of our enemies, we may open up a big chapter of instruction in the knowledge of our friends.
    Commander King-Hall: Presumably the right hon. Member would not wish that to stop after the war, in which case it would have to be done by some other Department.
    Mr. Burgin: I tried to explain just now that the interpretation of the British case to the world, which is so essential a part of our national prestige and of our export trade—for trade and public opinion follow the flag—ought to be done by the Foreign Office, and not by the Ministry of Information, which, as I understand it, is, on the books of the Constitution, regarded as a war-time expedient and a war-time Ministry.
    I endorse the Minister's tribute to the British Information Services in the United States of America. There is no one who goes to the United States in any capacity, however humble, who does not, at once, come into contact with Mr. Aubrey Morgan and thousands of willing people whom he can, in some measure, control and cause to spring into activity. We all know that New York is not the centre of the United States but it is the home of most of the big industries and Mr. Morgan, travelling between New York and Washington, seems to have his finger on the pulse of the two great cities—Washington as centre of the Government, but otherwise an almost provincial city, and New York, not the home of the Government, but, admittedly, the home of most

    845
    of the big industries. Not only does one receive the greatest courtesy but the greatest ability is shown and the best possible contacts are arranged by Mr. Morgan, who is the centre from which similar facilities are accorded in Canada. The Minister paid another tribute to the British Attaches attached to the Diplomatic Embassies. I would like to say that in many of the Latin-American Republics the Press Attach— to the Embassy has a very difficult time. The conception of Press Attach— does not go with a controlled economy and a controlled State, and in many of those countries the. Press Attach— is under a necessity to constitute some company in accordance with the laws of the local country, because the Press Attach— would not be regarded with approval by the Government of the day.
    These Attaches, for the most part connected with publicity in their own civil lives, are doing most valuable work. They seem to succeed in selling the stories which they receive from the United Kingdom—"selling" only in the sense of people wishing to take them, and not of receiving payment—so that immense repetition of the message appears all over the country to which they are accredited. We here, with our large daily newspapers which are country-wide, have something in the nature of a national Press but in those countries the conception of a national Press does not exist. The Press is a local, regional and a parochial organ and it is of the greatest importance not only that the information should appear in the best-known newspaper but that it should be widely distributed, and appear in the columns of newspapers all over the place. I would like to pay that tribute very widely.
    With regard to propaganda the Minister mentioned the Political Warfare Section of his Department's activities and sketched out a very interesting account of what was being done. I do not think that any student of British affairs would be inclined to give us very high marks for propaganda, as the meaning of that word is generally understood. We are not good at shop-window dressing; we do not display our goods very well. We are masters of under-statement and sometimes, that habit is not understood by countries which are flamboyant and prefer to exaggerate. I am sure that no well-wisher of our country would desire that our habit of under-statement should
    846
    be suddenly reversed overnight—I think that would be disadvantageous—but there is a middle line, and we ought to see that Great Britain, as part of her foreign policy, should definitely attach more value to seeing that her case does not go so frequently by default, and is better put with a greater expenditure of money. The Minister knows from communications I have had with him that in many parts of the world our own people are not housed in the best offices, in the right street or the right building and that we seem to have rather a flair for choosing places which, in election terms, would not be selected for committee rooms. All these things are features which can, with advantage, no doubt be improved.
    I would conclude with a personal reference to the Minister. In my judgment the great features in the present holder of the office of the Minister of Information for which we are indebted are his commercial experience, his contacts with life in Fleet Street and the breeziness and friendliness with which he addresses us from time to time. It is very refreshing to find that a number of words in our own language which are short and simple, are so explosively used by the Minister rather than some of their longer synonyms, winch do not always have the same effect on the people to whom they are addressed. When these short words, with plenty of punch and explosive power, are used frequently in their right place, the effect is all to the good. I hope the Minister will feel that the putting down of this Vote has given him an opportunity of telling the Committee, and the world, many important facts concerning matters for which in the office that he holds he is responsible.
    Mr. Montague: I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will pardon my reference to one remark that he made. I think it is necessary that that reference should be made at once. I think he will see, on reflection, that it was rather unwise, and perhaps in its effects mischievous, to say that all the South American Republics were Nazi.
    Mr. Burgin: I hope I did not say that. What I endeavoured to say was that almost all the Latin Republics in South America were militarily controlled, on Nazi or Fascist lines, that in, those countries there was complete censorship, com-

    847
    plete control of the Press, and absence of freedom of speech and freedom of the Press. I meant neither more nor less.
    Mr. Montague: I do not want to press the point except that we must remember Brazil and Chile.
    We have had a speech from the Minister of Information characteristically buoyant, and such as we might expect from him, and I hope he will not mind if I take a tone of sobriety about the matters he has raised. I do not follow all that he says with quite the same amount of enthusiasm as he has shown, although, assuming that the Ministry of Information is really necessary and that British morale, and the good opinion of other nations, 15 to 20 of them, might have of us requires to be stimulated constantly by official dope, I do not think anyone would dispute that the Department has done an exceedingly good job of work under its present Ministerial head. I pay that tribute at the beginning but should like to make one or two criticisms, not so much of the work as of the attitude of mind which seems to be behind the Minister's statement and its reception by the majority of Members. Whether it is necessary or desirable as a propaganda machine may be doubtful even in time of war—propaganda and announcement; they are two different things—but certainly to carry on the Ministry of Information as a propaganda machine in peace-time, seems to me a humiliating proposition. The "Daily Telegraph" referred the other day to the Minister of Information as a cock that would not fight, because it is understood that the Minister wishes to wind it up at the end of the war. I believe he has expressed that point of view on more than one occasion.
    There is a great amount of activity behind the scenes with the object of continuing the foreign publicity side in an extended news service under the Foreign Office, or to divide overseas publicity between the Foreign Office and a reorganised British Council. Perhaps a little more might be said about that when the Minister replies if that is the idea, as indeed I hope it is. While there might be a case for the perpetuation of the commercial side under the Department of Overseas Trade, or even an extension of its activity, there is no doubt that we are going to become a competitive world. The first
    848
    test has been civil aviation, and I think we know now where we stand in respect to the great principles of the Atlantic Charter and the development of private enterprise in civil aviation. If we are to become a competitive world we shall have to do what the Gilbert and Sullivan hero did:
    "Stir it and stump it.
    And blow our own trumpet.
    Or, trust me, we have not a chance."
    But there is little justification for the continuation of what might be strictly called propaganda. The Minister has said there are 180 outposts of the Ministry of Information in foreign countries. That is a kind of thing that might work both ways. I do not know what would be said if other countries, at any rate in time of peace, had i8o outposts in this country for purposes of pure propaganda. I have an objection to propaganda both in politics and in advertising. My objection is based upon the view that I think people do not, or ought not to, exist for their minds to be played upon by others. I would rather encourage people to use their own minds and judgment. Let us have facts. Let us disseminate facts. On 10th May the Minister answered a Question about British Information Services in New York and he said our representative there issued an enormous amount of material, so much that to bring samples of it over to this country would overburden our Library at the House of Commons, and transatlantic transport aeroplanes and shipping would be overburdened, if samples of each publication issued on behalf of this country in the United States were brought over for the information of Members. I am sure that statement must have been an exaggeration. It is extraordinary, anyhow, in view of the fact that there are only fifteen officials at the Ministry required to handle publicity to the whole of the Dominions. He has referred to the Colonial Empire but he told us nothing at all about the Dominions.
    Mr. Bracken: The Ministry of Information was never allowed by its pious founders to operate in the Dominions. We have no branch office in the Dominions. It would be a good thing if we had, but the architect of our wonderful foundation forgot that.
    Mr. Montague: It is interesting that I have been able to bring out that remark-

    849
    able fact. In any event I should imagine that the Dominions would be served better than foreign countries if not in respect of propaganda, in respect of well put-out information about British activity, and it would not be open to the misunderstanding and misrepresentation to which, possibly, propaganda to foreign countries might lead. The Minister turned down the word "propaganda" but the right hon. Gentleman who followed him referred to it as legitimate enterprise on the part of this country. If that is so, ought we not to know what it is that we find it necessary to say to the United States and how we say it? For, if the publication of literature in the United States is so enormous that we cannot spare the shipping, or room in the Library for samples of it, is there not the possibility that we protest too much? It might be necessary at times to correct distortion of fact, but channels which are less open to the charge of special pleading should be chosen. The word "sell" has been used. We do not want to "sell" the British Empire, like a box of pills or a bar of soap. I feel a prejudice against that whole attitude of mind, and that is why I object to the idea of propaganda being carried on after the war is over.
    I should like to ask a question with reference to the Press attaches connected with British Embassies abroad. What method of distributing films to foreign countries is now adopted, and what are our relations to the Press attachés? The question was dealt with in extenso in the Eleventh Report of the Select Committee. Do they report regularly about the use of British films, and their success or non-success individually? Further, are the services of the British Film Institute now utilised according to the recommendation of the Report to which I have referred?
    I come to one more reason why we should look at this question of propaganda a little more closely and in relation to fundamentals. The Minister told us that, as far as the B.B.C. was concerned, he did not want to deal with entertainment at all. It had nothing to do with the Government, he said. That does not seem to be true, if we look at the Report, because it expresses the view that entertainment-cum-propaganda films are of doubtful advantage in war-time, but must have their place in a long-term
    850
    policy. I should like to know what that means.
    Mr. Bracken: What is the hon. Gentleman quoting?
    Mr. Montague: From the Eleventh Report of the Select Committee on National Expenditure, which dealt fully with the question of films to foreign countries. We want to know pretty closely what aspects of national life would be selected after the war, with what object, and by whom directed. The Report goes on to say:
    "The aim should be not only to enhance the patriotic spirit but to direct it so as to break down psychological barriers to the ful-filment of particular national requirements."
    I do not know that I am aware what that means. It sounds rather like Goebbels. The meaning is obscure, but if there is to be any breaking down of psychological barriers on the part of the Government —and we are talking about Government activities—there will be Labour Governments in the future which might have some psychological barriers of their own that would require to be broken down. I imagine that hon. Members opposite are not very friendly to the idea of ideological politics, but if they go in for it by means of the Ministry of Information, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Labour Party will have to have a hand in it. With regard to the B.B.C.,the Minister toned down a good deal any reference to the question of entertainment. The Minister has the souls of millions of people of this country in his hand——
    Mr. Bracken: I hope not.
    Mr. Montague: —when he answers for the B.B.C. in this House, and we are entitled to discuss it even on the entertainment side. So far as the B.B.C. is able to mould the character, intelligence and soul of the general public, he said that it had reached years of discretion and that entertainment was not a matter for the State. As a matter of fact, it is. In answer to a Question on 17th May, the Minister said he had no intention of putting pressure to enable various political parties to explain their post-war policies on party lines. I do not know what other lines than party lines could be adopted to explain a party's post-war policy. He said that there was an Advisory Council on which all parties were represented, and to which questions about political speeches

    851
    could be referred. There is a Talks Advisory Committee consisting of the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir I. Albery), the hon. Member for Anglesey (Miss Lloyd George), the hon. and gallant Member for Oxford University (Petty Officer Herbert), and the hon. Member for North Southwark (Mr. Isaacs). The Minister said a week after that it had not been found necessary to call upon its services during the war, partly because there had been no talks on party lines. In answer to a supplementary, the Minister said that if those who took a minority view were anxious to impede the war effort, the B.B.C. would not give them any time whatever. That was one of the bright young answers that we expect from the Minister of Information and for which he is famous. I suggest, however, that it is rather disingenuous for him to refer the House to a committee one day and a week later blandly admit that the committee had ceased to function.
    Mr. Bracken: I was not disingenuous at all. I said that the committee existed, and it is solely a matter for the B.B.C. whether they decide to use it. I am not concerned with their advisory committees.
    Mr. Montague: All the same, the House was led to believe that there was a Committee to which questions referring to political speeches could be referred. As the Minister has admitted the case for more lively controversy, what does he mean by party lines? I am not afraid of discussion on party lines. Who are going to impede the war effort? The Minister, after all, virtually licenses 22 Czech newspapers in Britain, 18 Polish, eight Belgian, five Austrian, two Chinese, two Danish, seven Dutch, II French, six German, seven Norwegian, four Soviet and four Spanish. Is it argued that political differences do not exist among the countries of the peoples represented by these newspapers in this country? Of course they do, and we know that they have been expressed. Can it be argued that only British people cannot be trusted to express different shades of opinion without impeding the war effort? No one wants to impede the war effort. After all we, in this House, are passing legislation and discussing White Papers and the future of the country. We are discussing what is to be done with the people after the war and with institutions, economic
    852
    and otherwise, when the war is finished and we have to lay down the foundations for the post-war world. I suggest that these things cannot be discussed except on party lines by Members representing parties in the House, together with full expression of views through the newspapers, the B.B.C. and other means of reaching the public.
    The B.B.C. succeeds in giving an objective character to its news, but "The Week in Westminster" is not always so objective. It varies a great deal. Very often we feel a measure of complaint and grievance when we find that some Members of the House take advantage of "The Week in Westminster" in order to press home some of their particular points of view about which we would have other things to say. That is unfortunate, because "The Week in Westminster" could be a valuable thing and useful to the cause of democracy. It is about time that people outside learned more about the way they are governed and the way this House is conducted. They have hitherto been misinformed to a great extent, to the discredit of democratic principles.
    Mr. Beverley Baxter: The hon. Member complains that some Members press their points of view, but is it not openly known to their hearers that they are Members of the House and members of parties? To make them completely neutral, stating no point of view at all, would make "The Week in Westminster" even duller than it is now.
    Mr. Montague: If that was understood to everyone there might be something to be said for enriching "The Week in Westminster." My hon. Friend is a professional journalist and he knows that we could get sufficient colour and liveliness into a descriptive account of what happens in this House without any particular political colour.
    Mr. Baxter: Then it should be done by a Lobby correspondent or someone like that, but if you are going to use a politician let him speak within reason as a politician.
    Mr. Montague: I will leave the matter for hon. Members to decide. I have expressed my opinion that some of us on this side think there is often undue bias on one side without an opportunity of replying upon the issues referred to. It

    853
    would be useful for the Minister to tell the House exactly how the speakers are selected.
    Mr. Bracken: I have told the House many times that I have such complete confidence in the Governors of the B.B.C. that I am willing to take the heroic line that whatever they do I shall defend them in the House.
    Mr. Montague: I am asking the Minister to explain certain aspects of the B.B.C. and I do not know what he is objecting to.
    I want now to raise the subject of the Brains Trust. A lot of people think that the Brains Trust is wearing rather thin. I am sure that there are not 50 per cent. of people who tune into it now as compared with a year or two back. The liveliness of it has gone, and I think I know the reason. It is less stimulating than it was, and that is due, in my view, to the desperate anxiety of the directors of the B.B.C. to woo the lowest common denominator. The lowest common denominator is entitled to its say on the B.B.C. because the B.B.C. is an institution that caters for everybody and there must not be too much high-brow, medium-brow or even low-brow. That is, however, the tendency in the case of the Brains Trust. After all, it is a Brains Trust and there is plenty of the other stuff on the B.B.C. The idea is that some of the best brains of the country shall be got together to answer questions that members of the public put. Much depends on the kind of questions that are selected. I have frequently sent questions that I consider have been intelligent and useful, but they have not been taken any notice of. The questions are tending to the level of the Sunday newspaper "Quiz." That is not good enough. They waste the time of men like Joad, Huxley and the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot), who could use their brains to better advantage than answering some of the questions that are now asked. I wonder whether the B.B.C. agree with Schopenhoner:
    "A man must still be a greenhorn in the ways of the world if he imagines that he can make himself popular in society by exhibiting intelligence and discernment. With the immense majority of people, such qualities excite hatred and resentment, which are rendered all the harder to bear by the fact that people are obliged to suppress—even from themselves —the real reason for their anger."
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    I do not think that that is as true as it was when it was written, but, if it is true, I suggest that the Brains Trust exists to improve the situation. It is the purpose of the Brains Trust to deal intelligently and vitally with intelligent questions. Sometimes we get very good questions and good answers. I heard Joad answer a question the other day in which he put the whole philosophy of Plato in two sentences. It was really very wonderful.
    It is good to hear that the Forces enjoy the programmes that are dished up for them. I hope they do, but I would like to know how the opinion of the Forces or of anybody else is obtained as to what they want and do not want. Is there a questionnaire, or a report from battalions, or something in the nature of a Gallup poll, which so misinterprets democracy in this country and America in a way that is dangerous to the cause of democracy? It has been said, for instance, that soldiers are showing a partiality for classical music. I hope they are, but how is it known? One remembers the history of the music halls in this country. The commercial impresario used to think that all the public wanted was vulgarity and plenty of it. Some enlightened people thought that perhaps the public could stand a little less vulgarity and a little more art in the music halls. That policy was adopted generally and very suddenly in my own recollection, and the people responded to it. I am sure that the lowest common denominator is not altogether a measure of what ought to be done. I hope it is so, although one sometimes thinks that the Directors take lessons from the Refreshment Department of the House of Commons in the preparation of curried tripe.
    To come back to the Brains Trust for a moment, Joad's "bladders of philosophy"—that is really a quotation from the 18th century—enable us all to float upon the surface of deep waters. Still, there are many of us like the young man in "Patience," who traded on the fact that people would say:
    "If this young man expresses himself
    In terms too deep for me,
    Why, what a most particularly deep young man
    This deep young man must be."
    Joad's own opinion about the B.B.C., when not
    "Getting up the germs
    Of the transcendental terms,"

    855
    is a rather interesting pointer for the B.B.C. itself. He has said:
    "We have forgotten how to talk. We put on the radio, enjoying the cheap, standardised pleasures which are provided for everybody, instead of providing individual pleasure for ourselves. Science has multipled our wants and increased the complexity of our lives. Increasingly we demand that everything should be done for us. Increasingly we live a press-the-button existence. A drastic simplification of life would improve our health, our minds and our characters."
    Finally, there is a matter which is not usually dealt with in discussions of this character but which seems really important to a large number of people. I refer to the question of religious broadcasts. I have to make a rather cautious approach to this subject, so as not to offend anybody, and I put a point of view which is perhaps not usual but which is worth putting and should be considered. I remember my first introduction to an officers' mess. I was the only "ranker" in the battalion. It was carefully hinted to me that it would be bad form to introduce politics or religion into the mess; although they are the two most interesting subjects in the world, they were barred. I found, as a matter of experience, that the assumptions behind the question of what was controversial or not, were all the time highly controversial. Hardly anything was said that I did not find to be matter for controversy and I had to keep my mouth shut.
    I will give an illustration of what I mean. I remember there was a question being discussed in the mess after dinner one night of some slight alteration in the time of dinner. The colonel made a remark that everybody back in England—we were in Egypt then—dined at eight o'clock. I could not for the life of me refrain from suggesting to the colonel that perhaps quite a number of people dined at one. You could have cut the silence with a knife. What the colonel meant was that all the people who mattered in England dined at eight. That was an assumption about the structure of society, which is always made by people who talk about non-controversial discussion.
    It applies to religion as well and to much of the religious broadcasting that is being done. I am not condemning it as a whole, because some of it is very good. There have been Debates recently between Dean Grinstead and Dr. Evans that have
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    been admirable of their kind, although they do not go the whole way. George Bernard Shaw's "Adventures of a Black Girl in Search of God" was radioed recently. The B.B.C. were immediately criticised for being out of touch with the mood of the country, as that was religious controversy and was out of place and offensive, while millions of people wanted not controversy but religious consolation. That statement and others of a similar character were made in various newspapers in the country. Is Christianity such a fragile thing as all that? I do not think it is. Vulgar attacks on cherished beliefs are one thing, but sincere discussions about religious beliefs are another. These are aspects of religion which millions of people know about and to have them properly and sincerely discussed would do true religion no harm.
    What do we get instead? Very often some hand-picked parson is told off to deal with the religious difficulties of an equally hand-picked group of young men. Assumptions are always there on both sides. I recognise that there are plenty of young men and young women in this country who could put the parson through his paces when it came to a question of religious difficulties, but you never get anything of that kind. I am suggesting that this could be done respectfully and sincerely, without vulgarity or offence to anyone. Let us remember that there are more than 1,000,000 people—never mind about those who are rationalists—who belong to the spiritualist churches. There are probably another 2,000,000 who belong to organisations of Christian Scientists. There are all sorts of people who resent the thrusting of this formal, cotton wool religion down their throats at every opportunity. At any rate, if they do not resent the services being broadcast, as they should be, the proportion being right, do resent that it is always a coward's castle; no one has an opportunity of putting the other point of view. Higher or lower criticism is never allowed to be handled by unorthodox authorities.
    There is always plenty of broadcasting of religious services, to which I do not personally object, but I plead for a really grown-up and intelligent attitude of mind to questions of this kind. Why should not the fine intellects of Chapman Cohen or Professor Hogben be called upon to contribute, as well as that of the Bishop of Lichfield—and a fine intellect, too? We

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    get the bishops and the parsons, but people are aware that there are other points of view which can be put, in as reverent a fashion as may be required. I am sure that if Bradlaugh were living to-day he would be thrown out of Broadcasting House just as he was thrown out of the House of Commons. That justifies my saying that there is not a grown-up attitude of mind, and that there should be a more intelligent approach to religious broadcasting. Some people would object to real discussion of religious problems. You can always find people who object to any discussion on any subject. The B.B.C. would receive thousands of complaints. Of course they would, but they get thousands of complaints now. There are societies all over this country who pass resolutions deploring the surrender of the B.B.C. to the Scarlet Woman, because they broadcast Roman Catholic services. What of it? You will always get that kind of thing, but there is no reason why something a little more intelligent should not be adopted in this matter.
    It is much the same in politics. I do not know whether I look at this matter from a party point of view. I suppose I do. I have lived with a party for the whole of my life and perhaps that does make a difference to one's outlook. After all, there is a lot of generalisation and commonplace blah-blah on political questions. The soldiers are to vote by proxy. Now it seems that they are to think by proxy; but they will not. The soldiers are thinking far in advance of the public upon political questions, believe me. We are supposed to agree upon fundamentals. We are all at war, we are told, and we must not have controversy. We must not express disagreement about political questions, yet we have disagreements. Disagreements are there and they ought to be there. Disagreement is the spice of life. I disagree with my wife. Of course, I do not tell her. Why should slight differences make any difference to the morale of the British nation, simply because we are at war? We shall not be at war when the Ministry of Information comes to be discussed in this Committee again. I suggest that, in both politics and religion, health means opening windows.
    I congratulate the Minister upon his record of work and upon his zeal in performing it. He has presented a very fine
    858
    picture of work, on the whole necessary work, although I do enter a caveat about so much propaganda. It is undesirable that we should stress the idea of propaganding ourselves so much to other nations. In war-time, however, all the world should know of the things we do. Let the propaganda be as objective as possible. I hope also that the Minister will appreciate the fact that large numbers of people in this land are jealous of their freedom, and that includes intellectual freedom. They are anxious that the human soul, which I have said is so much in the hands of the Minister and in the Minister's keeping, shall be safe, as much from the deadly effects of dominant nit-wittery as from the assaults of those who would drag it down to perdition.
    Mr. Beverley Baxter: The speeches that we have heard to-day have reached a very high level of erudition. I particularly congratulate the hon. Member who has just spoken upon his very scholarly and broad-viewed contemplation of the B.B.C. But it shows how difficult a task the B.B.C. is, and that the more you start to criticise it the more bewildering the subject becomes. At one moment the hon. Member was denouncing controversy in "The Week in Westminster" and in the next moment he was pleading for controversy in the realm of religion.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: It is one-sided controversy.
    Mr. Baxter: Controversy starts with one side saying what they have to say. This is a strange Debate. In fact, the Ministry of Information from its beginning has been a strange institution. We have heard already something of its origin, but not all about the founding of this dynasty. The first Minister of Information was Lord Beaverbrook. Why was he appointed? Because, in the early years of the last war, he took on the task of publicising the Canadian war effort. He was the official Canadian "Eye-witness" and representative of the Canadian Government. He mobilised artists, sculptors, poets, journalists and a battalion of photographers. He did his job so well that he almost convinced the world that the Canadians were fighting the entire war, with some odd assistance from the British here and there. I myself came over to serve with the Canadian Army and when I got

    859
    to France I was astonished and a little hurt to find that we were not holding the entire line and that there were British Divisions, quite a number of them, on either of our flanks. Gradually we got a sense of proportion about the matter, but there is no question that Lord Beaver-brook did his job thoroughly and that it did raise the morale of the Canadian Forces. We read so much about ourselves that we thought we were good.
    After he had done that, Mr. Lloyd George realised that the balance had to be redressed, so he called in the same man to put the British war effort on the map, which Lord Beaverbrook did. When the war ended, the Ministry was disbanded, and Lord Beaverbrook retired to the more peaceful pursuit of being a newspaper proprietor. I think hon. Members will agree that the Ministry, from its beginning, was born in sin. What subsequently happened is an odd story. At the time of Munich, when it looked as if there might be war, a shadow Ministry was created, a shadow Minister was secretly warned to be ready. And who was the Minister chosen for this complex task? Lord Stanhope. Why Lord Stanhope? The only explanation that I can offer is that in this great and lovable country there is a reverence of inexperience which is a little beyond belief. We love the amateur, and in appointing men to high place very often the first thing looked for is inexperience, and is often successfully found. Only the other day a prominent Member of this House said to me, "The first qualification of a Secretary of State for War is that he should be a gentleman." I may say that we were not discussing the present incumbent. It was a purely personal and philosophical discussion. I said to him, "I see no reason why the Secretary of State should not be a gentleman, but I do not quite think that I would put that first. There was the case of Napoleon, who was not exactly a gentleman. In fact, at times he was quite a cad."
    Mr. Quintin Hog g: He lost the war.
    Mr. Baxter: Until he lost the war he did make a pretty successful war effort, and contrived to show some capacity for it. My hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) must not talk too
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    much about the end of things, because Napoleon—I do not suppose he needs any justification from me—did show considerable aptitude for making war, at any rate, up to a point.
    When Munich did not result in war Lord Stanhope was at that time assigned to other duties, for which he probably had special qualifications. But when the war came there was again a search for distinguished inexperience, and it was found in Lord Macmillan, a learned judge. It was a strange appointment in many ways; this man of cloistered knowledge, splendid record and fine character was placed in charge of the brass band of propaganda. That did not last very long. We then had Lord Reith, an engineer and something of a Czar. No doubt there was a lot to be said for appointing a Czar as Minister of Information, but it was not a job for an engineer. He in turn was followed by my right hon. Friend the Member for St. George's, Westminster (Mr. Duff Cooper). He had some qualifications; he was a man of letters, and did not do so badly until unfortunately one night he read a poem in place of the nine o'clock news. That poem was his epilogue because in this country poetry is rightly looked upon with suspicion —[Interruption]. My right hon. Friend says it is not looked upon with suspicion so I shall leave it as a fact that he read a poem, that that was his epilogue, and he went out on that performance.
    After these appointments, a new Government was formed in 1940. And who was appointed to succeed the right hon. and gallant Member for St. George's? The present Minister was chosen, not at all on the basis of inefficiency but on his extraordinary capacity. He has shown showmanship, arrogance, ability, eloquence, humour and industry. The cult of the amateur was at an end. He has been a tremendous success in the newspaper world. He has managed to be blunt and tactful at the same time, and for a man of strong character we have the spectacle of a Minister who speaks his mind, takes strong decisions and has practically no enemies. That is a great tribute to my right hon. Friend. The only thing is that he has done his job so well that we must see to it that this Ministry does not survive one day longer than we can help when the war is over. If anything he has done his job too well.

    861
    What is the real essence of the Ministry of Information? It is censorship. That is the great task that Ministry has. What is censorship? It means the concealing of inconvenient truth. The Ministry is not to be blamed; it is a war-time necessity, but it does become ingrained into the life of the people finally that it is not getting the truth. The public realise they are not getting all the truth, and after a while the appetite for truth itself lessens. That is one thing we have to be afraid of, that the people are already becoming accustomed to their thoughts being dominated and their emotions dragooned and regimented——
    Mr. Bartle Bull: Does my hon. Friend suggest that we would get the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth if there was no censorship?
    Mr. Baxter: I think that under our system of a free Press, in which cases can be argued, and a free Parliament and free debates in the public houses and parks, and everywhere else, truth will out, maybe a day or two late after publication sometimes, but truth will out. As long as there is censorship at work——
    Mr. Rhys Davies: Does the hon. Member suggest that any intelligent person in this country believes what comes from the Ministry of Information?
    Mr. Baxter: The suppression of truth is an insidious thing. The very fact that truth does not come out is what I object to, and the people are becoming intellectually less responsible because of that.
    I turn for a moment to the question of publicity for the nation, national publicity or national propaganda, whichever you like. There are those who believe that when the war is over we should still proclaim to the world our virtues. I think that virtue that requires a Press agent does not go very deep. This whole business of publicity at this moment has got out of hand. I remember a few years ago in this House some trouble that occurred when the late Six Laming Worthington-Evans was going to bring in his War Office Estimates. On that day the Lobby correspondents found a neatly typewritten page dealing with the record of the Minister, where he had gone to school, and other important items of that character and all of a favourable nature to the
    862
    Minister. There was a great outcry about it. The House was angry, and Sir Laming, as my memory goes, apologised to the House for it. What a falling off there is now. In Whitehall at this moment there are massed battalions of public relations officers whose duty is not merely to publicise the Ministries for which they work but the Ministers for whom they work. I rejoice, as every one does, to see in the newspapers a Minister tasting a new pie, or congratulating an ancient farmer on a turnip, or doing all the things Ministers do. We see the photographs of them. It is agreeable and pleasant but the organisation behind it—the photographers, the write-up men, employed by the Government and paid for by the State, all to popularise and make popular the Ministers—that is not a good thing.
    Mr. G. Strauss: Why then do the newspapers publish these hand-outs? Surely that is a responsibility of the newspapers.
    Mr. Baxter: Their responsibility in the matter does not come into the question at all. They publish what they think would be of interest to their readers. It is not for then to say "Has this been engineered or not?" If it is of public interest it is acceptable to them. I am going to the source of the crime, not to those who take the results of it. [Interruption.] I think it is a crime for any Minister to use State funds to popularise himself, and I think this matter should be taken seriously by the whole Committee. The only popularity that a Minister should have is from the good deeds which he does, and he should not employ men either to publicise those good deeds or to shelter him from the bad deeds which are committed by him. I think that that system of public relations officers is a very bad one. I hope among the things that will disappear after the war will be, not the legitimate publicity of Departments, which we recognize——
    The Deputy-Chairman (Mr. Charles Williams): I have listened to this for rather a long while, and I must point out that we are dealing only with a limited number of Departments to-day. We must not deal with departmental publicity as a whole, extending to every Department.
    Mr. Baxter: I had thought this came under the general policy of propaganda, but I will not press it any further.

    863
    As a matter of fact I have now only a last word or two to say because there are many other hon. Members who wish to speak. We in this House acknowledge the splendid work the Minister and his staff have done in propaganda directed against the enemy, and in occupied territories of Europe. Propaganda is a necessary weapon and one of the curses of war. I do not think we need it after the war. I think that the Ministry should be wound up as soon as possible, and when the emergency is ended we should give back to the University of London the building the Ministry occupies. We might even write over its doors "Here dwelt the harlot propaganda. Now there dwell knowledge and the eternal truths."
    Captain Gammons: The Minister has given us a very full and convincing account of the work of his Ministry in the immediate present and during the past year. I feel that that account is to be looked at, not only as an account of work done but also in relation to the prestige which that Ministry enjoyed at the beginning of the war. I suppose few Ministries have started under worse auspices than the Ministry of Information. I say that advisedly because I myself spent the first year of the war in the Ministry of Information. Its functions were certainly ill defined and its staff was not perhaps as well chosen as it might have been. I always remember that one of the most prominent civil servants came from the Lunacy Commission, and he often doubted in which Department he was. It is an historical fact that many of the messengers in the early days of the Ministry of Information were spare keepers from the Zoo. A few months ago, when I was going round the Zoo with a small niece of mine, a man rushed out of the parrot house—I thought very appropriately—and reminded me that he used to be a Minister's messenger at the Ministry of Information. He told me that he was looking after the hippopotamus, and that he found the hippopotamus less temperamental than the Minister.
    I was very glad that my right hon. Friend made such a spirited defence of the British Information Service in the United States. I have had the good fortune to see something of that service,
    864
    on more than one occasion since the war started, and I think that many of the criticisms which have been levelled against the size of the staff in Washington, New York and other centres, and pf the work that they are doing, are very unfair. I do not think that the staff is large enough to do the work which it has to do. The staff of the British Information Service for the whole of the United States is less than the crew of a sloop in the Royal Navy. My right hon. Friend pointed out, very truly, that it is not the slightest good our trying to do crude propaganda in the United States. That would certainly defeat its own ends. The job of the British Information Service is to supply facts. We might remember that the Information Service do not invent facts: all that they have to do is to pass on the facts supplied to them by the Service Departments. The British Information Service is primarily a pipe-line.
    I was especially interested with what my right hon. Friend said about the work of his Ministry in Russia. I feel, as I imagine most hon. Members feel, that one cannot exaggerate the importance of our understanding the Russians, and of the Russians under-standing us. To-day that may be a little one-sided, because there are in this country many organisations, some frankly propagandist and some which purport to be non-political, which aim at presenting to us a more or less accurate account of the position in Russia. We have Anglo-Soviet friendship societies and many organisations of that sort, and we have the Communist Party, which does not merely advocate a totalitarian form of government, but presents us with a picture of Russia. Our handicap surely is that there is no comparable organisation in Russia to the Communist Party here. I imagine that the Russians would not welcome a political party which was advocating Parliamentary democracy. Therefore, a special burden rests upon the Ministry of Information, to see that, within the powers which they are granted by the Russians, they give us as full a picture as they can. The Russians are broadcasting in English from Moscow. I wonder whether we have been able to secure reciprocity to broadcast in Russian from London. The Minister, on more than one occasion, has made it clear that, as soon as the war ends, he proposes to commit honourable hara-kiri. I do not

    865
    know that anyone proposes to prevent his doing so, but I hope that all the work and all the experience which has been gained by this Ministry during the war will not be entirely lost.
    There are some functions which certainly ought to end after the war. One is crude propaganda, in the ordinary sense, either to Europe or in this country. Certainly the whole of that home division of the Ministry will fade away when peace comes. But there is another job which somebody has to do. As the Minister, I suppose, is now considering these matters, I wonder whether he could tell us of any conclusion that he has reached. It is what I would call, for want of a better term, the presentation to the world of the British way of life. I have been very struck, as I suppose most hon. Members have been, with the attitude of the average American soldier who has come to this country and has had an opportunity of seeing something of our family life. He came over with many prejudices. He was brought up on a distorted history book. He thought of this country as being class-ridden to a very great degree. He had no idea of our range of social services and of our ideals. He has a very different picture to-day. That, surely, is an indictment of our inability to present to the world our views on life and our ideals. It is all the more important when it comes to the British Empire, because the Colonial Empire to-day is no longer something around which we can put a ring fence. The whole world is going to take an interest in the Colonial Empire of this country—and I hope in the Colonial Empires of other countries as well. It is very distressing to realise that not one American in 10,000 has ever heard of the Statute of Westminster. Every American believes that our Colonies pay tribute to us, in some mysterious way. They do not realise that the Statute of Westminster not only defines the status of the Dominions, but is the goal to which all our Colonial territories are aspiring, and which they will reach.
    Mr. Pritt: Surely the hon. and gallant Member does not suggest that the Statute of Westminster has anything at all to do with the Colonies?
    Captain Gammans: I do. My whole point is that, although the Statute of Westminster legalistically refers only to
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    the Dominions, it is the ideal to which this House hopes that the Colonies will attain. Therefore, it seems to me essential that, if we are to carry the United States with us on Imperial affairs, they should understand what our hopes are, and what ideals are behind them. We are an Imperial Power, and we mast remain so.
    Mr. Cluse: The hon. and gallant Member has just said that we are an Imperial Power. He said before that our Colonies can become Dominions. Suppose we add them to our present Dominions, where is our Imperial power?
    The Deputy-Chairman: If they become Dominions they go outside this Vote. So we had better leave that point.
    Captain Gammans: I will not argue with my hon. Friend on his rather narrow interpretation of the word "Imperial.'' Unless we are going to have misunderstandings in future, it is surely the job of some Department to present a wider aspect of our ideals and aspirations. Whose job is it? Is it the job of the British Council? I feel that it is not. They are doing a very useful job of work, but in a rather more limited sphere than that which I am trying to outline. I hope, therefore, that, before my right hon. Friend burns himself up on the funeral pyre at the peace celebrations, he will give some indication of how that important work will be carried on.
    I would like to say a word about the B.B.C. I imagine that it must be the responsibility of my right hon. Friend, in the light of all the experience he has had in the past two Or three years, to indicate to the Government what is to be the future of broadcasting in this country. The present position, I suggest, is an almost impossible one, because, if you tackle my right hon. Friend in this House about the deeds or the misdeeds of the B.B.C., all he does is, like Pontius Pilate, to send for a basin of water and wash his hands, and then dry them in the Charter of the B.B.C. I am not blaming the directors or the staff of the B.B.C. Under the Charter, they are a monopoly. My hon. Friends opposite often say hard things about monopolies in commerce and in trade. I would join them. I detest monopolies in every shape and form. But I go a little wider. I equally dislike monopolies in trade unionism, and in

    867
    public utility corporations. We have an idea to-day that all you have to do is to turn some trade into a public utility corporation, and automatically all its problems are solved. But are they? Straightaway you have this very difficult and interesting constitutional point, as to who in this House is responsible for a monopoly of that sort. In the case of the B.B.C. or of the London Passenger Transport Board, you cannot discuss their operations, or even policy, except in the most remote fashion. There is a responsibility on my right hon. Friend to sort the thing out in some way or another.
    I am quite frank about my views. I hope that after the war we shall not restrict broadcasting in this country to the B.B.C. I do not want to do away with the B.B.C., but I want to see some form of commercial broadcasting in this country as well. [An HON. MEMBER: "For whom is the hon. and gallant Member Speaking now?"] I am Speaking for myself. I know that it is a popular view in this country that American broadcasting is very inferior to our own. I do not know whether people who hold that view have any experience of American broadcasting. I have found American broadcasting extremely good. One of the methods worth considering is that of Canada, where there is a mixture of the two systems: one is equivalent to the B.B.C., and has a charter and draws licence fees exactly as the B.B.C. does here; and in addition there is a commercial broadcasting system, which gives the element of competition that my hon. Friends opposite always want to see in other directions. Without some form of competition you are not going to use broadcasting to the utmost effect and with the efficiency which it merits. Take the point of my hon. Friend's interjection just now. We are going to get commercial broadcasting in any case. You cannot put a tariff against the waves of the air. We had broadcasting of that sort before the war from Normandy and Luxembourg, and what is to prevent it after the war? With the improvements resulting from the war, the number of stations on the Continent, and perhaps in America, which can be heard here, are going to increase rather than to decrease.
    Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Does my hon. and gallant Friend mean by competition something similar to that
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    which obtains in Holland, by which the Catholics would have a broadcasting system, the Protestants would have a broadcasting system, the Nonconformists would have a broadcasting system, and the Conservatives and Liberals would each have a broadcasting system?
    Captain Gammans: No, I do not suggest that Transport House should have its own system, or that the Conservative Central Office should have one. I suggest that, before Members lightly condemn the method of the United States, they should study it, and they should understand the very strict conditions under which commercial broadcasting is allowed there. I believe that, if they did study it and had an opportunity of listening to it, many of the objections which they have in their minds to-day would, in fact, disappear and they would see the great advantage which results from having something more than a mere monopoly in this important service.
    Mr. A. Bevan: Has the hon. and gallant Member not met his own case? He has told the House that, from other countries, there will be commercial broadcasting competing with us here, so that his conditions will be satisfied without any exertions on our part at all.
    Captain Gammans: I do not regard that as a solution at all. I think it is far better for us to allow commercial broadcasting, not for the reason my hon. Friend suggests, that he objects to someone making money out of it, but for the reason that you will get that element of competition in broadcasting which, in my opinion, is essential. I want to finish on this point. I feel that, when we come to review the work of this Ministry in its wider sense, more credit should be given to my right hon. Friend than, perhaps, has been given him. I believe we started this war by talking a lot of nonsense about propaganda. A lot of people suggested that all you had to do was to mutter some magic formula over the air, and Germany would at once collapse. That is simply not true.
    The Germans are a resolute people and they went into this war with their eyes open, and they are not likely to be deterred from that purpose by some "Open Sesame" from Broadcasting House. The only thing which, in the long run, can make propaganda successful is success in

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    war, and only so far as you have got victories to back you up, is your propaganda likely to be worth while. There is one test against which we can measure the work of the B.B.C. and the Ministry of Information. My right hon. Friend, all through this war, has stuck to one cardinal principle and that is that, whatever comes from this country, whether in the form of a leaflet or pamphlet, or from the B.B.C., it must be the truth, and I think that it is in achieving the result, that the world has learned to rely upon the accuracy of the information coming from this country, that the efforts of the Minister have been so successful.
    Commander King-Hall: There are several reasons why I wish to raise a voice against the point of view that, as soon as the war is over—and exactly what is meant by that is never very clear —this Ministry of Information should be wiped clean off the slate. I am in agreement that certain aspects of its work, described under the heading of "Censorship," should stop, although I think there is some misunderstanding of what the censorship arrangements are. The facts are that any newspaper may print anything it likes, irrespective of what it is told by the Ministry of Information, and it takes the risk of prosecution in law if it does. The Ministry advises newspapers that, in its judgment, such a thing should not be printed. There are, I believe, cases where newspapers have not accepted the judgment of the Ministry, and there have not been prosecutions afterwards. I do not think it should go out that there is a censorship by the Ministry, in the ordinary strict legal sense. It is rather a triumph for us that we have succeeded in getting through this war without that kind of thing. I would ask the Committee to be rather careful about sweeping statements on abolishing the Ministry at the end of the war.
    I would like to refer to what the hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) said about the Brains Trust. I noticed that he had the assent of the House when he said that the Brains Trust had got less interesting and less controversial, and I think the Minister himself, in his speech the other day, encouraged or told the Governors of the B.B.C. not to be frightened but to go out and be controversial. The fact is that the people of whom the B.B.C. are frightened are hon. Members of this House. I have been
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    invited to speak on the Brains Trust from time to time. Before Speaking one is given a free lunch by the B.B.C.—I hope that acceptance of this meal does not infringe any rule of proper conduct of an M.P.—and at that lunch I was asked to make a few suggestions about questions for the Brains Trust. I will mention two I suggested. The first was that there should be a discussion in the Brains Trust of the future of the Charter of the B.B.C. Their reply to that was "That will be very tricky." Clearly, from the speech we have just heard it does arouse strong feeling, and l feel pretty sure that the Minister would have to take very strong evasive action from the deluge of Questions if the Brains Trust had a discussion on the future of the B.B.C. I am convinced that the Governors would be delighted to have it, if it could be made clear to them that the House will not get too upset about it. My second suggestion was a discussion on what to do with Germany after the war, and that was ruled out because it is not yet a subject, apparently, which we are able to discuss in this House.
    I will now give my reasons why we must not talk in a sweeping way about doing away with this Ministry. One reason which made me rather suspicious was that I noticed the Beaverbrook Press howling for its closing down. It was that Press which, in 1938 and 1939, was telling us, "There will be no war this year, or next year, or any year," and its judgment on these matters always leads me to suspect it. It is not that I have any personal feelings against it; in fact, it once did me the great service of starting one of its leading articles in the "Daily Express" by saying that the whole energy of that paper would be directed to preventing me getting a seat in this House. I need hardly say that it was a very valuable statement from my point of view. I only wish they would say it again. When, therefore, I see the Beaverbrook Press howling for this Ministry to be wound up, lock, stock and barrel, it makes me suspicious, and I think we must be rather careful of accepting such advice. I think we use the phrase that the Ministry must disappear as soon as the war is over rather loosely and carelessly in this House.
    Apart from the obvious legal difficulties in determining when the war is over, I am one of those who feel that the war

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    began a long time before 1939 and will go on in its widest sense long after the actual shooting stops in Europe, and, therefore, I think that we have adopted many measures in the conduct of this war—and, to me, it is still an ideological war, and I am sorry the Prime Minister referred to it as becoming less ideological—and we have done many things which we shall not be able to stop doing when the war has stopped. It is a continuous process, this fight against evil, and, even when the fighting is over in Europe, there will be political confusion and economic confusion all over Europe. I think there is growing agreement in this House that, after this war, we have got to make certain that peace is going to be preserved by the use of strength on the part of the United Nations. If we have not learned that lesson, we are fighting the war in vain, and all I would like to submit to the Committee is that I think that we should not lose sight of the conception that, in total war, strength does not consist solely in the use of the weapons of the Armed Forces of the Crown.
    I have studied war for a good many years at staff colleges and other places, and I am convinced that we must recognise that total war is not only material but psychological in its actions, and we make a profound mistake if we think that peace is only to be preserved by being surrounded with tanks and planes and guns. The Committee should recognise that the roots of all wars lie in psychological situations. All wars are rooted in ideas. Nothing was more deplorable in 1936–39 than the absolute inability of democracies to defend themselves in the psychological field against the dictators. The most disgusting insults were hurled by the dictators about the decadence of democracy, and Goebbels himself, in 1938, was spending£20,000,000 a year on this propaganda. The hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down made the remark that the Germans went into this war with their eyes open. I do not wish to say anything to detract from the fundamental responsibility of the German people for the actions of their leaders but I do say that Goebbels was wise in 1936, when he had control of the German Press and broadcasting, and he pumped his stuff into Germany. He was not wasting his time.
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    We have heard a bit from various speakers to-day on the early history of this Ministry, and perhaps I may be permitted to add a little footnote. When I came back from Poland and Berlin in 1939 I was very much depressed by the fact that certain Germans, who I believed were fundamentally anti-Nazi, had got it into their heads that Hitler was doing something desirable in going into Czechoslovakia, because he was preventing Germany from being encircled. A young German whom I once held in respect—he was educated in this country—tried to defend Hitler going into Czechoslovakia by saying that he had done, without a war, what they did in 1914, when they were encircled and broke into Belgium. I returned to the Foreign Office and reported that a very big effort ought to be made to put counter-propaganda into Germany, because the people there were absolutely being led up the garden path. At that time there was a shadow organisation in existence, with Lord Perth as Director. A few friends, whose names I should not, perhaps, mention, helped me to get together the sum of£4,000, with which we sent letters into Germany, in German, and the first letter was based on the speeches of the Foreign Secretary of those days.
    I thought it right to tell the Foreign Office before those letters were sent out, and I said I hoped to send them to Nazi addresses and prominent people in Germany. I was told by the Foreign Office, by Lord Perth, "Of course, it is a great waste of money, and nothing will happen." Within a week I was asked not to go anywhere near the Foreign Office because there was a first-class uproar going on in Germany, but I got details to show that I had disturbed the Nazis very much. Extraordinary efforts were made to prevent the letters getting into Germany and suggestions were made to me that these things should be stopped. I said that if the Prime Minister of that time would write to me a letter I could publish, telling me that it was not in the public interest to send letters to Germany, based on our public statements of policy and exposing Hitler's lies, I would desist. That little effort was much too late, and we should have done it much earlier. They simply did not believe that we had a story to tell them.

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    Something might have been done about it. I suggest that the lesson should not be forgotten. It should not be done in a cheap sort of way after this war, but we cannot take it for granted that the Continent of Europe has that inborn feeling, which we have, that democracy can deliver the goods and is the only really possible way of life. I realise that I am getting on to rather controversial ground here, and I shall leave this point simply with the remark that I hope some Department, or some agency, in this country will have as its function the preaching of the gospel of democracy outside this country and, especially, of counteracting the attacks which, undoubtedly, we shall live to see made on our democracy.
    In conclusion, it seems to me that there are three functions at present being carried out by this Ministry which, as matters of practical politics, will have to go on. It may be arguable that they can be carried out by existing Departments, farmed out among them, or that some smaller, more compact and less diffused Ministry such as the Ministry of Information now is, should be set up to do it. On the domestic side there is the difficult question of the Public Relations Officer. I agree that it is not the business of the Public Relations Officer to act as a private Press advertising adviser to his Ministry, and I think most Ministers would deprecate that. No doubt the Public Relations Officer sometimes does things which his Minister does not want him to do.
    Sir Patrick Hannon: The hon. Gentleman who made that statement to the House did not produce any evidence in support of the statement he made that Public Relations Officers had been doing anything of that kind.
    Commander King-Hall: It is a difficult thing to prove and, as was pointed out, the Press are not obliged to publish these stories of Ministers eating cakes and so forth, and the fundamental responsibility lies with the Press. What we cannot get away from is that the complications of modern life are such that the more factual information which the different Ministries hand out to the public the better——
    The Chairman (Major Milner): The lion. and gallant Member will appreciate that
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    Public Relations Officers and the propaganda of individual Ministries is not a matter for the Ministry of Information, but for the particular Ministry concerned.
    Commander King-Hall: With respect, Major Milner, I will put it this way. From my own experience in the Ministry of Fuel and Power, it is the business of the Public Relations department there to prepare the material and send it to the Ministry of Information, which puts it out. However, I will leave that point. All I will say is that I believe we should look into the possibility of centralising the publicity which Government Departments wish to do, and when it is a question of getting out facts this should not be left to the particular Ministry, the Ministry of Food, the Ministry of Agriculture and so forth. There is a great deal of overlapping at present.
    The second point I wish to make is that of giving information of our way of life to the United States of America and the Dominions. I agree with every word spoken by my hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter) and my hon. and gallant Friend who has just sat down, on the need of a better understanding between Americans and ourselves about our respective countries. When I was over in the United States the other day I was taken out to dinner by 78 anti-British Americans and they asked me a great many questions. The first one was "Well, Commander, whose stooge are you?" I was able to answer that I believed I was one of the few Englishmen that night on American soil who had paid his own fare to get there, and that made a great difference. We have to be very careful in our dealings with Americans. We must convince them that we are not putting over a propaganda story, but that we are simply supplying the facts which they want to know, and that is what our Ministry of Information is doing over there notwithstanding what is said to the contrary. It was suggested by the right hon. Gentleman who followed the Minister that this job should be done by the Foreign Office. I very much doubt whether that is going to be possible. It is equally important that we should understand the American way of life.
    Earl Winterton: According to the hon. and gallant Gentleman, it would seem that the only country in the world which

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    should understand us and which it is necessary for us to understand is the United States of America. I think it is equally important that Russia should understand us and that we should understand Russia.
    Commander King-Hall: I think I can answer the Noble Lord. I said, having dealt with the domestic side, the next point was the making known of the British way of life to the United States of America and the Dominions. The third point is the making known of the British way of life to foreign countries.
    Mr. A. Bevan: I would like to find somebody who could interpret that way of life to me.
    Commander King-Hall: If I may give my hon. Friend a brief answer to his question, I would say that anybody who wants to know about Parliament should read HANSARD.
    Mr. Bevan: I should have thought the most effective way of learning about our way of life, would be through normal communications and not by self-conscious propaganda.
    Commander King-Hall: Unfortunately, we cannot all get across the Atlantic, and I think it is desirable that in this country and over there, there should be centres where facts about the British way of life and the American way of life can be obtained. Finally, there is the point that I have already dealt with, the question of getting information about the facts of the British way of life and, particularly, what is meant by the free and democratic way of life, into foreign countries. That cannot be neglected, but I doubt whether these things can be carried out by the Foreign Office. There may be occasions when the Foreign Office would say that they cannot do a certain thing because delicate negotiations were going on in a particular country.
    Mr. Gallacher: Why is it necessary to have a certain method of approaching America and the Dominions and another method for dealing with foreign countries? Americans have always objected to the attitude adopted by Britons in America that everybody in America is a foreigner except them.
    Conunander King-Hall: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's interruption because
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    I was not conscious of having said that. What I said was that in both cases the Foreign Office was not a suitable body to do that.
    Earl Winterton: What about Russia?
    Commander King-Hall: I am all in favour of finding out all we can about the facts of life in Russia, and I hope the Russians want to know about our way of life. Both these things seem to be desirable and, therefore, I conclude by pointing out to this Committee that this phrase "The end of the war" is a very nebulous one and not to be regarded as the end of hostilities. At the end of hostilities, these activities which have been so ably and practically described to us to-day by the Minister, must be carried on by some body or agency, but the only suggestion I have heard so far is that they should be transferred to the Foreign Office. I do not think that would be useful.
    Mr. Vernon Bartlett: My hon. and gallant Friend insists that this ought not to be done by the Foreign Office. May I ask whether he does not think that if we are, in fact, going to maintain a centralised propaganda department after the war, there will be very great distrust among all the foreign journalists trying to cover this country? I think he wilt agree that the ordinary foreign correspondent who works in this country would rather deal with the Foreign Office News Department than with the Ministry of Information, although I do not in any way want to cast aspersions on the work of that Ministry in general, which I think is admirable. On that particular point you would have great distrust among foreign correspondents if you took that matter out of the hands of the Foreign Office and put it under the control of a centralised committee.
    Commander King-Hall: I think that there really are two functions there. I am suggesting that there will have to be, after the war, a way of providing factual information about the ways of life of this country and a publicity of policy, and naturally I would expect the Foreign Office to interpret the British policy to foreign Governments.
    Sir Malcolm Robertson: Would my hon. and gallant Friend say a word about the British Council?
    Commander King-Hall: I was proposing to say a word about the British Council, although I have been interrupted several times, which has made me take more time than I meant to do. I know the work the British Council is doing. I do not think that the Foreign Office, as at present constituted, is quite the nest where I should lay this egg of interpreting the British way of life, and perhaps the British Council would be a more suitable place, but not as it is constituted at present.
    Dr. Little: The different aspects of the Ministry of Information are being very freely dealt with, and there is only one matter I wish to bring to the notice of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Information. I want to congratulate him; he has done his work well since his appointment to the Ministry. Like a true Celt, he is kind and approachable and ready to respond to every, reasonable request. My right hon. Friend does not set himself up as infallible. He knows that to err is human. He has made a few mistakes, as have other Ministers in this House. He has done his work wisely and well and he deserves the thanks of the whole country. I want to bring to his notice a letter which I received a few days ago. It is a letter which he and I, and, in fact, all of us, should lay to heart. This constituent of mine writes:
    "About a fortnight ago, two amorous, inane actors gave a show on the B.B.C. and every few minutes one or other used, in a flippant and irreverent manner, expressions like 'good Lord,''good God,''by God,''for God's sake' and so on. I think it's monstrous that the national radio permits the Holy Name of God to be introduced into passionate, stupid, voluptuous scenes. How can we expect the blessing of God when this blasphemy is permitted? "
    This was written by a man who is well known in my constituency and does a good deal for the Press. He is not alone in being offended by this sort of thing. He and a great many others in the country have expressed to me their deep regret that in this Christian country the name of God should be used in such a light, flippant and irreverent way. In this country the name of God is honoured. The Jews would not use even the name "Jehovah"; it was so sacred to them. They used another Hdbrew word. We in this country should protest very strongly against any dishonour of the name of God or against using it in this flippant way in any act on
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    the B.B.C. This has given great offence to hosts of our people, and I make a strong appeal to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Information to use his influence with the B.B.C. to have such uncalled-for expressions put out of the programme. They should never be allowed in a Christian country. There is no need for such use of the holy name of God in any programme of the B.B.C. The name of God is very precious to me, and, I believe, to every Member of this Committee. The more we honour God, the more He will honour us, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will make such a protest to the B.B.C. that all this sort of thing will end and that we shall have our programmes freed from the use of the holy name of God in any irreverent way.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Information (Mr. Thurtle): The Committee will be aware that my right hon. Friend is going to deal with the various points that have been raised in this discussion, but, as he indicated, he wanted me to tell the Committee something about the operation of the Postal and Telegraph Censorship, which is the largest department under the control of the Ministry. I propose to do that now, but I would like to permit myself the luxury of making one reference to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Luton (Mr. Burgin). I was struck by the sympathetic and understanding way in which he suggested that the Ministry of Information should go out of business, at the end of the war. I could not help feeling that there was a reason for that. He was a member of the Liberal Party, and it must be within his knowledge, as it is within my own, that many callous-hearted people have from time to time applied this doctrine of out-lived usefulness to that once great Liberal Party.
    Mr. Edgar Granville: Is not that what Communists are saying of the Labour Party?
    Mr. Thurtle: As from April last the Postal and Telegraph Censorship was entirely separated from the Ministry of Information. Since then it has worked as a separate organisation under a separate director-general. Nevertheless, my right hon. Friend has responsibility for that work and for that reason, because of its very wide activities, and because of the fact that it employs some 12,000

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    staff and has a budget of nearly£3,5400,000, he thinks the Committee is entitled to some information about its work, and I propose to give that information now. The censorship started at the beginning of the war under the control of the War Office, and early in 1940 it was handed over to the Ministry of Information. But even then it was never part and parcel of the real Ministry but worked as a separate organisation. In the end that diversion of function was recognised, and last year it was formally separated from the Ministry and became, as I said, a separate organisation.
    The censorship of letters and telegrams is one of the unpleasant necessities of war. Nobody likes it, least of all the British citizen, because it means the intrusion of the official prying eye into his private affairs, and in ordinary times there is no doubt at all that this would most properly be very strongly resented. However, in the essential interests of the war our British people have suffered all sorts of disagreeable things in order that the war might be effectively pursued, and, for the same good reason, they have agreed to acquiesce in the censorship of letters although it is naturally repugnant to them.
    I want to tell the Committee something about the achievements of this Department. Unfortunately, even now it is not possible to tell the whole story, because the enemy is listening and we should be giving him some useful tips, but it is a fact that this censorship system has increased the effective prosecution of the war and has saved many thousands of lives of British and Allied seamen. I think I can say enough to show that it has produced much more good than the evil we have suffered as a result of it. Let me add that there is full recognition in the Ministry of Information that the operation of this letter censorship would not be justifiable in peace time, and there is every intention of bringing it to an end at the earliest possible time.
    Now the post and telegraph censorship has two main objectives. The first is to secure that no information of value goes out to the enemy. A very recent illustration of the importance of this work is to be found in the part which the censorship Department had to play in protecting the secret of the Normandy invasion. A vast amount of detail and carefully considered work was undertaken
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    in this respect, and there can be no doubt that that work contributed substantially to the measure of surprise achieved. In this connection the Department has received the thanks of the Vice-Chief of General Staff, General Eisenhower's Staff and the American Navy. The second objective of the Department is not so obvious to the public. It consists of frustrating the enemy's attempts at communication with the outside world, and might be described as a communication blockade. Very naturally, the enemy has throughout the war consistently attempted to use the mail and cable facilities for the purpose of his war effort and, just as consistently, we have contrived—with success, I hope—to frustrate his knavish tricks. Activities which he has sought to carry out by that means include propaganda, espionage and evasion of economic controls, such as the Navicert system. There is also smuggling, and turning into foreign exchange assets looted from occupied Europe.
    All these activities are conducted by our enemies by means of a centrally-controlled system. We found that the only effective counter to this enemy activity was a centrally-controlled communication blockade. This has been achieved by an Allied controlled network of censorship throughout the world. The component parts of this network consist of stations established by the Department in many places overseas, of censorships operating in the great Dominions and in the Colonies, of censorships established by the United States of America and by the French authorities. It has been built up steadily as an effective check against operations of the enemy in this field. There is, in fact, a perpetual battle going on between the enemy and the censorship organisation. I think it is not overstating the case to say that we are getting the better of that battle. The Committee might like to know that in conjunction with the British and American security authorities, the British censorship has been instrumental in bringing to light the activities of most of the spy rings in the United States and Central America. It has also played a large part in the uncovering of the enemy network of espionage in South America. The extreme measures taken by the enemy to conceal their communications is the measure of respect in which he holds the British censorship organisation.

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    Prior to the entry of the United States into war, one of the main enemy activities was his attempt to turn into dollars various forms of property used by him in Europe. These included not only money but also bonds of various descriptions, diamonds and other forms of property in conjunction with the American Foreign Funds Control. The censorship has been instrumental in largely preventing the success of these German efforts to obtain badly-needed foreign exchange with which to pay for their urgently needed war material. In particular, the work of the censorship in unravelling the activities in neutral countries of such organisations as the I.G. Farben industry—the great aniline dye trust—has been favourably noted by our American colleagues. The tracking down of all these enemy commercial transactions has been a particularly delicate piece of work.
    This part of censorship activity is, of course, closely linked with the Ministry of Economic Warfare. The blockade, as the Minister of Economic Warfare pointed out recently, is largely operated by means of the Navicert system. For this reason we find the enemy is constantly making arrangements whereby apparently innocent transactions to neutral countries are submitted in order that Navicerts may be granted to cover the transaction. It is the censorship which is largely reponsible for finding out the true nature of these transactions and thereby preventing the enemy from achieving success.
    Mr. Granville: May I ask the hon. Gentleman if all this very important, useful and interesting information has been submitted to the censor?
    Mr. Thurtle: No, because the censor has absolute confidence in the discretion of the Minister of Information.
    Mr. G. Strauss: On a point of Order. What the Minister is saying is very interesting, but he is reading it out from a document and is not making a speech at all. I submit, Major Milner, that there has been an increasing anxiety in the House recently that we should have less read documents and more speeches.
    Mr. Thurtle: I am sorry that an hon. Friend of mine should seek to make distinctions between a junior Minister and another Minister——
    Mr. G. Strauss: I did nothing of the sort.
    Mr. Thurtle:—because it is frequently the practice of Cabinet Ministers to read out statements of this kind——
    Dr. Russell Thomas: Essays.
    Mr. Thurtle:—and I think on matters of this sort, where it is essential one should be quite accurate, it is desirable to have a very full note. I am sorry that my hon. Friend should find it necessaiy——
    Sir P. Hannon: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps he will turn round to this side and put a little life and spirit into it, instead of confining himself to the text before him. Why does he not make his speech loudly and brilliantly to the Committee?
    Mr. Thurtle: I must say I am getting a good deal of encouragement. There are what we call cloak transactions, that is, transactions which are, in fact, different from what they purport to be. This is a common device of the enemy in order to obtain essential materials. In hundreds of these cases we have turned the cloak absolutely inside out. With regard to the smuggling of diamonds, to which I have already referred, many of the arrangements for this purpose have been detected by the censorship. In addition, the censorship itself has intercepted very large quantities of diamonds——
    Sir P. Hannon: That is better.
    Mr. Thurtle:—which have been sent through the post under some sort of cover or subterfuge.
    Mr. Driberg: What do they do with them? Do they give them to their secretaries?
    Mr. Thurtle: I have not seen any of them yet; anyhow, one can always hope. So far as transactions in looted pictures are concerned, it is censorship which, in the main, has been responsible for detecting these—and it is a very difficult business. Perhaps the most striking assistance censorship has been able to render to the Ministry of Economic Warfare is in regard to a fiendish scheme to get dollar exchange, which was devised by the Nazi

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    Government. This scheme was to arrest wealthy Jews in Holland and elsewhere in occupied Europe and hold them to ransom by their rich friends in America. This scheme failed, and the policy pursued by the Government in defeating it was largely based upon information supplied by the Censorship Department.
    I am sorry that I have had such a frosty reception in presenting the little story which I have to tell. There is much else that could be told about the work of the Postal and Telegraph Censorship; it is a remarkably interesting story, but it cannot all be told now because it would give great advantage to the enemy. When the full story is told, as no doubt it will be at the end of the war, it will make good reading for the British public. In the meantime, I hope that in spite of certain observations which have been made the Committee will be content with what I have told them, and will feel that the letter censorship, dislike it though we may, deserves well of the country.
    Mr. Tree: I make no apology for wishing to take part in this Debate, because I spent three out of five of these long years of war at the Ministry of Information. I first went there at a time which Evelyn Waugh described extremely well in his book "Put Out More Flags," during which archimandrites used to wander in marble halls not quite knowing who they were looking for or what they would say when they got there. I remember one occasion when a civil servant called a conference of American correspondents in order that he might tell them how to be good, if careful, correspondents. I saw Ministers come and go, and I would like to congratulate my right hon. Friend on the reputation he has made in that unenvious post. As the close of the war draws near my right hon. Friend must feel not unlike Catherine Parr when she saw Henry VIII gradually sinking away into oblivion. The other Ministers I served under certainly disappeared with their reputations a little more threadbare than when they arrived, and I think hon. Members will remember the time when Adjournment Debates on the Ministry of Information were the principal sport of those who had nothing else particularly to do, and when we were very lucky if we escaped with one a week.
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    Despite all that, I watched at the same time a 'body of devoted men and women, working unbelievably long hours, with very little to gain and much in reputation to lose, gradually building up a network of world-wide publicity, very often with inadequate directives and at a time when British arms were suffering a series of shattering defeats. Let us be under no misapprehension. Publicity is far easier to deal with when you are victorious than when you are militarily being defeated. But, finally, the Overseas Section of the Ministry established itself as an efficient and well organised piece of machinery, doing an extremely good job in many parts of the world. If I refer specifically to the Overseas Section of the Ministry, I do so not because I think the Home Divisions are doing any less good work, but because I wish to confine my remarks to the overseas publicity of His Majesty's Government in the post-war era. I am in complete agreement with my right hon. Friend the Member for Luton (Mr. Burgin) and many other Members in saying that the Home Divisions of the Ministry should be wound up as soon as possible when the war is over. With this I include censorship. The work they are now doing should be left to the efficient British Press, but I am equally certain—and I am in complete agreement with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hornsey (Captain Gammans) and the hon. and gallant Member for Ormskirk (Commander King-Hall)—that some form or another of overseas publicity must be maintained in very much its present form when the war ends.
    It is clear that we must have a policy of national publicity, and that it must be based on truth in peace, just as it has been based on truth in war. In the days of high pressure salesmanship in which we live, if confidence is to be maintained in Britain and in our economic and political policies, then the peoples of the world must be kept informed as to what those policies are. The system which prevailed up to the beginning of the war, in which the whole of the foreign publicity of this country rested with the News Department of the Foreign Office, a Division of eight officers, a few clerks and a certain number of scattered Press attachés—it was not until -the summer of 1940 that we sent a Press attaché to Washington—is clearly inefficient and out of date. After the war we shall have a

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    story to tell the world, a story that will be just as exciting and interesting as the story of the war, a story of people united to eliminate unemployment, disease and poverty, a story of improvement of the lot of the peoples living under our flag.
    Mr. Montague: Surely that is a story that tells itself, and ought to be left to tell itself.
    Mr. Tree: It was not told in the period before the war, and there was a tremendous amount of misapprehension abroad about it.
    Mr. Montague: Why not let an up-to-date advertising agency tell it?
    Mr. Tree: It is a story that we should not be ashamed to tell, a story which the world would be extremely interested to hear. But we must be quite sure that we tell it in the best possible way.
    What is the best method? It seems to me that there are four possible alternatives. I should like to enumerate them and then put my own interpretation upon each. The first is that the overseas sections of the Ministry of Information, with the addition of all Dominion publicity—because in the terms of reference of the original setting up of the Ministry of Information Dominions affairs were specifically excluded from it—should be reconstituted in a separate Ministry of Information with its own Minister in charge of it. The second alternative is that it should be handed back to the Foreign Office. Thirdly, that a sort of equivalent to the Department of Overseas Trade should be set up under an Under-Secretary of State, whose function it would be to service the various Departments which needed publicity abroad. Fourthly, that it should be taken under the Cabinet Secretariat. As I understand it, at present the Cabinet Secretariat has no executive functions. There would have to be some sort of reorganisation in order that they might take publicity under their wing. As far as the Foreign Office is concerned, undoubtedly very strong arguments have been advanced to show why they should have it returned to them at the end of the war. It will be said that foreign policy must be the root and branch of all our publicity and that, therefore, they must be responsible for it; that the Foreign Secretary and his Ambassadors abroad cannot be subject
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    to irresponsible people over whom they have no control, making statements which may endanger our relations with those foreign countries. But, with due deference to the Foreign Secretary, I do not agree with that argument. The training of diplomats—nearly all the diplomats I have ever come across—certainly does not include publicity in its curriculum. Not only do they dislike it intensely but most of them have a very supreme contempt for it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] It is part of their training to dislike it.
    Mr. Vernon Bartlett: On most questions the hon. Member and I agree, but on this we differ considerably. The hon. Member said the whole staff of the Foreign Office News Department before the war was eight.
    Mr. Tree: I said eight officials, with a certain number of clerks under them.
    Mr. Bartlett: It was an extraordinarily small department. I have had 25 years' experience of the Department and I should have thought, considering the meanness of the Treasury towards it, and the attitude of the diplomats towards it, it had done an amazingly good job of work. Perhaps the hon. Member will bear in mind this very small staff.
    Mr. Tree: I have no doubt that that small section did an extremely good job of work, but it seems to me that it was confined to the diplomatic correspondents in this country and a small section of the foreign Press. It did not give an over-all picture of Britain, and one only had to go to the United States in the years before the war, to see the woeful amount of misapprehension that existed about the institutions and the policies of this country. Moreover, future British publicity has got to include a far wider field than that covered by foreign affairs. It has to cover the Dominions and our relationship with them. As someone said earlier, there is in the United States a complete misapprehension of the meaning of the Statute of Westminster. It has to give a true picture of our Colonial development, which has also been woefully misrepresented abroad, and it has to give, in the years immediately after the war a true picture of our relations with India, which may well be a cause of acute misunderstanding with foreign countries. It must further cover the vast new field of economic policy which is now entrusted to the Board of

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    Trade. I agree that the Foreign Office is deeply interested in these matters, but equally so are these other Departments which I have enumerated.
    For these reasons I do not believe that overseas publicity should reside exclusively with the Foreign Office. For other reasons I reject the idea of setting up an equivalent to the Department of Overseas Trade. My own experience in the early days at the Ministry of Information was that one of the chief difficulties that it encountered was that the Minister did not attend Cabinet meetings himself and was unable to give sufficient directive to his staff. I can remember well in the early days of the Ministry a War Cabinet Minister holding a conference of representatives of the Press, and, as far as I can remember, the then Minister of Information was not even asked to take the chair. He was an extremely angry man. The success of our publicity depends largely on the man who will be placed in charge of it and the closeness of the touch that he has with the fountain-head, the Prime Minister and the War Cabinet. That could not happen if you merely had an Under-Secretary in charge of it.
    We come, therefore, by a process of elimination to the two other alternatives, either of retaining the Ministry of Information on a reorganised basis or of putting it under the Cabinet Secretariat. It does not greatly matter to me which one is chosen, because I believe either will be capable of doing a good job; personally I favour the retention of the overseas section of the Ministry with a Minister responsible to the House and able to answer for it. I think it would be a neater kind of job. But, if it is considered in the public interest, and if the House wants to see all war-time Ministries, no matter how important, abolished at the end of the war, I should be quite content to see it go to the Cabinet Secretariat.
    Some hon. Members have questioned what should be the role of the British Council in future British publicity and what part it is to play in giving a picture of Britain to the world. I believe the British Council has a very considerable role to play but that it should be limited to those countries where culture and art are the main objects of our publicity in countries where we already have an Institute, like, for instance, Portugal, or
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    Italy as it was before the war. I believe that the Council has a considerable role to play throughout the Middle East and in certain countries in South America. But in countries like the United States and the U.S.S.R., where a positive interpretation of all aspects of our life must be attempted and facts given, as well as the countering of actual misrepresentation which is always being made by our enemies, the British Council should be definitely excluded. It should act in the closest touch with the publicity department that was chosen, but it would be highly dangerous if we had two branches of publicity working in the same country, and it would make that country legitimately ask questions as to what was being done.
    I would like to say a word about the future of the B.B.C. If I make any criticisms of that body I hope they will be taken in the spirit in which they are meant, a desire to be constructive. I recognise the fine work that the B.B.C. have done throughout the war, sometimes in difficult circumstances. I always found during the three years I was at the Ministry of Information that they gave me every co-operation and help. Nor do I intend to discuss the overseas programmes because I believe that, with the exception of the Empire programmes, they should become part of the functions of the publicity board about which we have been talking. I believe that they have a large part to play in painting a picture of Britain to the world. I shall confine what I have to say to the home programmes. I think that it was the general opinion of most people that before the war the home programmes were not up to standard. During the war the news bulletins have been extremely good, but there has been little improvement on the entertainments and other sides. The question is, therefore, what can be done to bring them up to the highest possible degree of excellence so that audiences are not forced through sheer boredom to turn on to foreign wavelengths and listen to gramophone records relaying from foreign stations. I think that this is an opportune time to discuss this matter because I understand that the Charter of the B.B.C. comes to an end in 18 months. Therefore, I hope that the Governors are giving this matter their earnest consideration and that they will take cognisance of what is being said in this Debate.

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    There is one recommendation that can be made now. That is that the charge for licences should be raised from 10s. to£1. One of the greatest difficulties that the B.B.C. has been under during past years has been the inability to pay for the best.
    Mr. A. Bevan: Only last week the House discussed the White Paper on Employment Policy, which said how desirable it was to leave more spending-power in the hands of the people. Now the hon. Gentleman wants to take more from them.
    Mr. Tree: The people would also like to have the entertainment on the B.B.C. improved.
    Mr. Bevan: Give it to them free.
    Mr. Tree: One of the difficulties of the B.B.C. has been to pay for the best, whether script writers, artistes or orchestras. We all remember how, in the years before the war, the best people one by one slipped away and got employed elsewhere. Unless the B.B.C. pay the best and highest prices they will not be able to get the best people. In the United States the radio chains derive their income from advertising. Consequently they get very large sums and they hire the very best. I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. and gallant Member for Hornsey (Captain Gammans) when he said that the average programmes in the United States are on a very high level. They most certainly are. I believe however that this country and this House would be against the use of advertising in broadcasting. Therefore, the B.B.C. have to look to other directions for increasing their revenue.
    Mr. Ivor Thomas: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that for many years, and possibly at the present time, the licence revenue produced far more than was needed by the B.B.C. and that large sums were paid to the Treasury?
    Mr. Tree: And also for technical research, and I am sure that there will have to be more research at the end of the war. I am certainly against the Treasury receiving any of that money. I am trying to show means whereby the standards of the B.B.C. can be raised. If they need more funds they have no alternative but to raise the price of the licence and then they could spend money more generously than they have in the past on those they employ.
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    With regard to the general set up, too much attention has been paid in the past to the national programmes and not enough to the regional programmes. If you turned on your radio and you did not like the national programme, the chances were that if you turned on to a regional programme it was a very trashy one. The first thing to be done is to raise the general standard of all programmes to the same level of excellence so that there should be no difference no matter what wavelength you tuned in to. There are two ways of achieving this. One is by sticking to the present system of national and regional programmes and, by effecting the greatest measure of decentralisation possible and appointing directors who should be charged with improving the regional programmes, and giving them adequate grants, to bring their programmes up to the same level as the national programme.
    The other alternative is that there should be four or five wavelengths each devoted to a particular field of endeavour. For instance, that one should be responsible for culture, music, talks and so on; another for light entertainment; another for adult and youth education; another for Empire talks; and so on. I believe that either of the two suggestions I have made is feasible, and that they should be considered by the Governors of the B.B.C. The people of this country after the war will demand, and they will deserve, the best that can be given. I am certain that unless the B.B.C. give them the best, they will turn for their entertainment to broadcasts from other countries, which will be, to say the least, a most unfortunate development.
    Mr. Horabin: I do not propose to follow the hon. Gentleman in discussing the future of the Ministry, of Information. I intend to stick to one short point with reference to the B.B.C. which was raised so admirably by my hon. Friend the Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague). That is the question of the intellectual freedom of the B.B.C. I fully agree with everything he had to say about the religious programmes of the B.B.C. The point I want to make concerns the necessity for having party politics on the air to-day. I believe that the Minister also stands with us on this question, because on two occasions he has gone out of his way publicly to give the B.B.C.

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    what I consider really sound advice about how they should conduct their politics on the air. Last December he said:
    "The charge was constantly being made that the B.B.C. was being timid, and this failing was ascribed to Government influence. Knowing that democracy thrived on argument, the B.B.C. should encourage discussion on all vital issues. Calling impartially on all sides, it should be a great public forum."
    He repeated this advice at the beginning of this month. Although the Minister, has, on several occasions, and again today, offered to take all the kicks for the B.B.C. if only they will show a certain amount of originality, the B.B.C. still suffer from sheer downright timidity. They are afraid of what I call real, honest-to-goodness controversial politics on the air.
    Unless politics are controversial, they are dead, they cease to exist. It is very important that we should have red-hot politics on the air. Otherwise our Parliamentary democracy is in the greatest danger of extinction. Our pre-war practice of ventilating our politics and our points of view in the Press has been somewhat curtailed because of shortage of paper, and also because the Press to-day is in so few hands and our political organisations are so thoroughly dis-organised. It is impossible to get vital points of view adequately ventilated before the electors of this country, and therefore I believe that the B.B.C. has a great responsibility in this matter at the present time. When we get among the people in the country, in the factories and in the Services we find that they are absolutely cynical about politicians of all political complexions. They do not believe that any party or politician is out to look after the interests of the common people. I believe that the only way to put that right is to allow politicians to show what they stand for by talking freely on the air on B.B.C. programmes. The B.B.C. should be impartial, but it does not show its but partiality by emasculating politics, as it does at the present time.
    Politics is not a matter for experts. Far too many learned professors talk politics on the radio to-day. They talk about the technical aspects of political programmes. Surely politics, if they mean anything at all, are a question of ultimate aims. The only people who are capable
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    of dealing with ultimate aims are the politicians who are fighting about those ultimate aims in this House and in the country. Those are the people who should be talking and expressing their opinions fully and openly on the air. The B.B.C. has what it calls political programmes, but whenever I have listened to them I have found that they were politics in the abstract. People talk learnedly about Socialism, Liberalism, or Toryism in a way that does not mean anything to the people at all and does not touch their lives in any shape or form.
    I beg the Minister to get the B.B.C. to take the advice that he has given them at least twice during the last six months. It is ro years since we have had a General Election in this country. For five years there has been no real political controversy outside the House, and even that in the House has necessarily been suppressed due to shortage of paper and other causes. A new generation of electors is coming along to take part in the next General Election, and they know very little about the political questions with which they will be faced. Before very long we shall have a General Election in this country, and young people in the Services or in the factories, who have never seen a General Election before and who have been reading newspapers in which political controversy has been largely suppressed, will have to exercise their political judgment. How can they exercise it soundly if the B.B.C. does what it has done in the past, allow political controversy for just three weeks before the election?
    I am pleading at the present time, when we are getting down to post-war reconstruction, for Heaven's sake let the people of this country learn what their political leaders on all sides of the House are fighting for. Let them get some understanding of the problems as we see them in this House. I admit that if we have political controversy on the air the Government will be involved, but I would give the Government exactly the same privilege on the air as they have in this House. I would like them to reply to any Debate that they want to, on the one condition that all vital points of view are expressed as fairly on the air, with adequate time for doing so, as they are in this House.
    Mr. Reakes: Then we should never get any music.
    Mr. Horabin: We should be able to get all the music and all the entertainment that we wanted. More than that, I think we should find that the people of this country would listen far more to the B.B.C. if politics were given an air of living reality, instead of being turned, as they are to-day on the B.B.C., into a corpse that is being dissected by a lot of learned professors who look at the matter from a scientific and not from a humanitarian point of view.
    Mr. Ivor Thomas: I do not wish to follow the general argument of the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Horabin), but I feel constrained to suggest to him that an examination of the B.B.C. programmes would not bear out his contention that its politics lack liveliness. Look at the list of hon. Members who have spoken in recent weeks—the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter), the hon. Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams), the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles). They are some Members of Parliament who have spoken in recent weeks and—
    Mr. Horabin: Is is quite true that my hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Miss Lloyd George) and other Members of this House report the proceedings of Parliament on the B.B.C., but I quarrel with that very much. What they are doing is to report, and they have to attempt to be neutral instead of doing what I want, which is to express the views for which they stand. They are not expressing their party point of view. I am appealing that the B.B.C. should no longer just give us this kind of neutral and colourless politics but that we should get the real blood and bones of politics.
    Mr. Thomas: The hon. Member was so anxious to refute my argument that he did not allow me to complete the list, which I would have done by the addition of the name of the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell). These are the hon. Members who have spoken on the B.B.C. in recent weeks, and they are among the most controversial Members in this House. The hon. Member for Sea-ham spoke in the Brains Trust and therefore with every latitude. I did not rise, however, with the object of Speaking about the B.B.C. I want to speak more particularly about the Ministry of Information and oversea propaganda.
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    I am not certain whether we have come to bury Cæsar or to praise him to-day. For my own part I want to do both. I will praise him first and bury him after. I think the right hon. Gentleman who spoke second in the Debate was somewhat in the same frame of mind. I saw him likened in last night's "Evening Standard" to Balaam's ass. It seemed to me that he was more like the rider than the mount. Like Balaam he was called to curse but remained to bless. There has undoubtedly been a great improvement in the Ministry of Information since those early days of which the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Tree) has spoken, when:
    "There were ninety-and-nine who safely lay
    In the shelter of the fold."
    I served in the Ministry of information myself for some time in 1940, and can confirm what he said. My own impression can be judged from the fact that after a few weeks I asked to be returned to my regiment. I served afterwards in the Political Warfare Department. In the past I have criticised both Departments, but I think an extraordinary transformation has come over them. It is almost unbelievable, even when one allows for the fact that propaganda is much easier in days of victory than in days of defeat. I think a great tribute is due to those who have brought this situation about, not least the present Minister of Information. It is the duty of a Minister of Information to be shot at. We can give this comfort to our own Minister of information that, unlike the Vichy Minister of Information, the bullets will in his case be metaphorical only; and, as his bright and breezy speech to-day has shown, when shot at he will not be in bed to receive the bullets.
    Let us look at the work of the Ministry of Information in its various sections, because I do not think we can settle this question by saying that the Ministry of Information as a whole ought to remain or be abolished. There are many different types of work done by it. Clearly when the war comes to an end much of the home work will disappear. There is its admirable Public Meetings Section, one of the sections not referred to by the Minister. The Ministry of Information meetings in the early days were a joke—there is no other word for it—but the Ministry officials have now developed a technique that is

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    really magnificent. I hope that in the political parties we shall learn something from it. When the war comes to an end we shall wish to resume our own political meetings, and clearly that side of the Ministry's work must disappear.
    There is the admirable work being done on films by the Ministry of Information. I do not think that praise can be too high for the level now reached by the Films Section of the Ministry, but clearly that is another aspect of its work which we hope will come to an end. I say that with some reservation, because if the British film industry turns out the rank rubbish we have had from it almost since its inception, there would be a strong case for continuing the Films Division of the Ministry of Information. That will remain to be seen. It may be that we shall have to take a similar line with films as we have done with the radio. I assume that aspect of the Ministry's work will disappear when the war comes to an end. Then there is the Press and Censorship Bureau, the largest part of the Ministry's domestic work. Clearly that must come to an end. No one agrees more heartily with that than the Minister himself, as we know from his public utterances. I want to add, as an old member of the Press, that that throws a great responsibility on the Press.
    I do not feel as happy about the Press as does the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter). If the freedom of the Press means the freedom of Lord Beaverbrook and Lord Kemsley to put out what views they please, I do not feel so satisfied with it, nor can I feel very happy about the reporting from overseas by our newspapers before the war. Too often an editor sent abroad persons quite unfitted for the work. They had no knowledge of the country's language, customs or institutions, and very often they sent back, not the truth about the country to which they were accredited, but what they thought the editor wanted, and the editor put in what he thought his readers would like to read. I suggest that this throws a great responsibility on the Press when the war comes to an end. I take the liberty of saying that as an old member of the profession who loves it still.
    These are some of the main aspects of the domestic work of the Ministry. I must mention one other, because it involves a problem, and that is Government
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    publicity as a whole. I have never been very happy about the relations between the Ministry of Information and the Public Relations Officers of the various Departments. The Public Relations Officers came first in point of time, and it seems to me that they are the proper persons to do the publicity of their own Department. No one else can, in fact, do it, and in practice the Ministry of Information to-day is a bill-posting agency for those Departments. Obviously the publicity of a great Department must be done in that Department itself. No one else can possibly do it. I do not think we should be put off with such words as "co-ordination"; they mean very little in practice. I would like to say in passing, again referring to the speech of the hon. Member for Wood Green, that I thought it very unfair both to Public Relations Officers and to Ministers, when he suggested that one of their main objects was to boost their Minister. I think he would find in practice that it is very often the Public Relations Officer who urges the Minister to take part in some public function and the Minister rather reluctantly agrees. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster had an unfortunate experience of publicity of this nature. He will remember the unfortunate episode about the two cottages. That is the kind of thing into which a Minister may be pushed by a too zealous Public Relations Officer.
    The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Ernest Brown): On the contrary, it was the desire of the Minister to help a rural district council which had done a very good job of work, and to pay a little tribute to them.
    Mr. Thomas: It bears out my contention that a Minister does not seek these things for his own advantage, but in the public interest, and that if it were left to his own decision he might avoid it. I think I have covered the main aspects of the domestic work of the Ministry.
    Mr. A. Bevan: How long does my hon. Friend suggest these Public Relations Officers have existed? The first in my recollection was at the Ministry of Transport. It is a purely modern development.
    The Chairman: In any case they do not exist at all for the purposes of this Debate.
    Mr. Thomas: I have only mentioned the subject in so far as there is overlapping with the Ministry of Information. I realise I would be out of Order in going further than that. The B.B.C. might be counted as one of the domestic activities of the Ministry of information. Clearly there must be someone in the House responsible for the activities of the B.B.C. I do not think it would be suggested that we should set up a Minister solely for that purpose. The work could be done, if necessary, by the Lord President of the Council or the Lord Privy Seal, or one of the Governors who is a Member of this House could answer on its behalf, as in the case of the Forestry Commission. That does not establish a case for retaining the Ministry of Information when the war is over.
    Having touched on the main domestic activities of the Ministry, let me turn to its oversea activities and to our oversea propaganda generally. It seems to me as clear as daylight that the national interpretation of Great Britain, to use a phrase of the British Council, is so dependent on policy that it must in any circumstances come under the control of the Foreign Office.
    Even if a Ministry of Information were retained, the Foreign Secretary must still have the general oversight of that Department. I can see that, if the Haldane reforms were carried out and we had a group of Ministries under the Foreign Office, there might be a case for retaining a Ministry of Information, but my own predilection would be in favour of creating a powerful section inside the Foreign Office, and probably having a special Under-Secretary in charge of it, just as there is an Under-Secretary in charge of Overseas Trade. That appears to me the obvious machinery for carrying out this work.
    Mr. Tree: Does the hon. Member believe that the Foreign Office, in its present state of mind, would do a good job in giving a true picture of Britain to the world?
    Mr. Thomas: I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Bartlett) in the high tribute he has paid to the News Department of the Foreign Office. The work that Mr. Rex Leeper and his successors have done there is very good indeed. If necessary, the Foreign
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    Office could take on to its establishment journalists and publicity officers, just as well as the Ministry of Information. I do not think there is any evidence of inhibition in this matter on the part of the Foreign Office, and I speak not without some knowledge of the subject. My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater has a great deal more knowledge than I have. There is the theoretical case for it. Clearly propaganda is so closely bound up with policy that the Foreign Office must have the last word on it.
    Propaganda is so important that it must become a direct responsibility of the Foreign Office. What is the reason for it? In old days Governments negotiated with Governments, and the peoples of the respective countries took no notice of foreign policies, until they became involved in war. That is so no longer. Peoples speak to peoples, and it is absolutely essential that the British case should be put before the peoples of other countries, and not simply before the Governments. I think that the conduct of foreign affairs has changed its nature, as a result of compulsory education, almost the whole world over. That is why diplomatists must acquire this technique of propaganda—a word that nobody likes, but that we are all forced to use. I have completed the summary of the main activities of the Ministry of Information, and it appears to me inevitable that the Ministry must come to an end with the war, or at a reasonable time afterwards.
    There are certain other activities which might be carried on by being assigned to different Government Departments. One, which has not been mentioned by the Minister—possibly for reasons of discretion—is the War-time Social Survey. I believe that that is an investigation of great value. It is the application of a new technique in finding out the opinions of the people, and there may well be a strong case for retaining that activity. It might be desirable that it should be made available not only to the Government but to Members of Parliament as well. That could be debated. But at any rate it should be continued, possibly under the Cabinet Secretariat. It came under a cloud in the early days, because a journalist could not resist the headline "Cooper's snoopers." I understand that temptation fully, but, if one examines it coolly, one is bound to realise the great

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    value of this technique, and it should continue as a peace-time survey.
    Then there is the Reference Division of the Ministry, which is acting at present as a general library for a large number of Government Departments, and which might also continue, possibly, under the Cabinet Secretariat. Whatever the machinery, this work of national interpretation is of the utmost importance to the country. We cannot in the future, as in the past, allow the British case to go by default. That was recognised with the setting up of the British Council. That Council had not long enough to find its feet before the war came. When the war ends, that work of national interpretation, whatever the machinery adopted, will be one of the most important aspects of the work of the Government.
    Sir Edward Grigg: As the first Parliamentary Under-Secretary to the Department whose Vote we are discussing I should like, enviously, to congratulate my right hon. Friend on the halcyon Parliamentary weather which the Ministry now enjoys. I remember very well when the late Prime Minister, Mr. Neville Chamberlain, sent for me, and told me that it was my duty to undertake that task. I undertook it with the greatest reluctance, feeling that I was going to face very dirty weather—and I certainly got it. At that time whatever the Ministry did was wrong. It had to encounter not only dirty weather, but mines, torpedoes, gunfire, air attack, everything which can be used in a hostile way against a ship on the ocean. But all that time I felt conscious that, while the case which I was trying to make to this House did not receive undue approbation—although the House was very kind to me personally—the Ministry had a real job to do, and that there were men and women in it who were capable of doing that job admirably.
    Inasmuch as I have been associated with the Department, I should like to say how glad I am that that excellent staff has come into its own, that the ship has found itself, and that under the guidance of my right hon. Friend it is receiving its reward in due recognition. That I think is partly due to the qualities of the staff, and also to the qualities of my right hon. Friend. He has got the common touch.
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    He has brought the Ministry into much closer relation to the whole world, which is its business. I should like to thank him for another thing. That was his speech today, which was a model of directness and compression. I hope that the Front Bench will give us many more speeches of that character. He told us the things which we really wanted to know, simply and most effectively. There was an absence of the Front Bench verbiage to which, unfortunately, we are very much accustomed.
    I do not want to enter into the thorny general question of the B.B.C., but the Committee, and the House generally, are apt, I think, to be a little unreasonable on this question of the control of the B.B.C. When was at the Department the Minister was supposed to be directly responsible for the B.B.C.; and Parliament complained bitterly of that arrangement, and said, "Why do you not once more appoint an independent board of directors? It is quite wrong that the Government should have anything to do with the control of the B.B.C." The Government gave way, and a board of directors was appointed; and the House now says, "Why is it that the Minister does not control the B.B.C.?" There is no satisfying this House in certain matters.
    Although I have great sympathy with my right hon. Friend opposite in his desire that there should be red-hot politics on the B.B.C., I think, as a matter of fact, it is better to leave all these questions to the Directors of the B.B.C. themselves. After all, statements about what this House of Commons wants are read by the Directors; if we keep on saying those things I think we shall probably get what we want and I think that is the best way. Quite definitely, I think the House was right when it said that no Government Department should have direct control over the B.B.C. I hope it will stick to that contention.
    There is the question, raised in many speeches, of what is called propaganda—I agree with the dislike of the word which has been expressed, so let us say the presentation of facts—about this country in other countries and how that is to be carried on, more particularly in the United States. I think that the present arrangement is admirable, and I should not like to see it altered. The Information Office

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    in the United States seems to me to be carrying out exactly the function which is desirable, that is to say, it gives information to everybody who wants it, about anything connected with this country, but does not try to force anything down anybody's throat. I am sure that if we want the Americans, who are deeply suspicious of propaganda and particularly suspicious of British propaganda, to understand this country rightly, it is much better to leave the presentation of facts about this country and of the achievements of this country to the admirable American correspondents and broadcasters, who are, as a matter of fact, doing very great service to Anglo-American relations in that respect.
    It is perfectly true that great ignorance prevails in this country regarding the institutions of the United States, and it is equally true that great ignorance prevails in the United States regarding the institutions of this country. But it is not the business of the B.B.C. or the Press, it seems to me, to conduct programmes of elementary education. That is the business of education. After all, if there is too much elementary education in a newspaper, people will not buy it. If there is too much elementary education in a broadcasting system, people will simply turn the switch. Broadcasting systems and newspapers, on the whole, will give people what they want to get, and, therefore, you must go behind them, to your educational system. It is really the system of education on which this depends—on whether or not you think it worth while to educate your people to understand foreign countries and the other nations of the British Commonwealth. I think that is vital. Our slackness about it and even antipathy to it has been a great flaw in our education, and I should like to see it corrected. I am sure it cannot be corrected at a later stage, because, when people have once grown up ignorant, they will refuse education at a penny a copy or in any other form in which it may be presented.
    My only criticism in regard to Anglo-American relations is broader. I think we want plainer speaking, because I think the American people appreciate it. I would have no nonsense about the British point of view. I think we should speak out in the clearest possible terms and as forcibly as we can to the Americans, from whatever level or angle we present our views to them. After all, the Americans do it
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    to us, and I think they would like us much better if we did it to them. I think we ought to be less mealy-mouthed in the way in which we state our point of view on certain difficult and controversial questions.
    I think, on the other hand, that the B.B.C., the radio and the film can be of enormous importance, pictorially, to make people more familiar with the facts of the Colonial Empire. That, I think, is a very special role by which a great function of education can be carried on more easily than by any other method. My hon. Friend opposite, the hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague), said the presentation of facts about the Empire might be left to private enterprise. It was. It was, unfortunately, left very largely to people who thought it their conscientious duty to disparage the British Empire, and we have suffered quite terribly throughout the whole world by disparagment of our own work and our people and our predecessors. I think that deplorable, I think that, in future, people should become much more conscious——
    Mr. Montague: I must correct my hon. Friend. I must not be misunderstood or misinterpreted. I regard private enterprise in the sense of an advertising agency doing things like boosting the British Empire as humiliating, as far as the nation is concerned, but low enough for private enterprise.
    Sir E. Grigg: My hon. Friend said that boosting the British Empire was so low a business that it should be left to private enterprise. By using terms like "boosting" you can make anything sound revolting, but to speak the truth about the services of the British Empire is not to boost. It is due to ourselves, to our country and to our predecessors, who, after all, created this system in which we live, that that kind of enterprise——
    Mr. Montague: The hon. Member does not realise that there are vastly different points of view about the British Empire. For instance, our relations with India are a matter on which hon. Members have very different ideas from those of my hon. Friend.
    Sir E. Grigg: I am fully conscious of differing views about the Empire and I was deploring them, but I suggest that the

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    country is now turning very much more favourably to the ideas which my hon. Friends and I on this side represent. One more point. It is about the future of the Ministry of Information. The hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Tree) made a powerful argument against leaving it to the Foreign Office, and he suggested, as an alternative, that it should be left to the Cabinet Secretariat. I was once remotely connected with the Cabinet Secretariat and I very much doubt whether that body should be made an executive body of any kind. It is a recording body. If you are going to give it executive functions, you will change its whole character. Quite apart from that, it is clear to me that our external policy, as a whole, has been suffering for decades past from undue fragmentation. It is true that our diplomatists have been at times rather slow to realize that the world has changed, but that does not alter the fact that diplomacy now depends, not only on the relations between Governments and Governments, and on the personal relations between Ambassadors and Secretaries of State, but on the understanding of peoples by peoples. The atmosphere in which foreign policy is conducted is surely the business of the Minister responsible for our external relations, and if you divide those responsibilities you will immensely weaken the influence and understanding behind those responsible for your foreign policy. I hold very strongly that the external activities of the Ministry of Information should, at the earliest possible moment, be transferred to the Foreign Office, because that is the right Department to control them.
    With regard to internal activities, I am sure the Minister will agree that the sooner they cease the better. This country does not want people perpetually taking its temperature or reporting to Ministers how it feels about things. Many activities which are recommended to us in war-time are regarded as insulting by the people of this country, and quite rightly. A great deal of the idea that this country requires all kinds of moral stimulus to keep it doing its job and realising the grim character of the necessities which face it may be left to its leaders. Fortunately it has had great leadership in this war, and does not require an army of paid Government representatives going about trying to make the people feel better about themselves. They are quite capable of doing their duty,
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    and of doing it valiantly, without official assistance of that kind, and I am sure they will welcome an end of it with many other war activities.
    Captain Plugge: We heard a very clear and detailed rendering by the Minister of Information of the work of his Department, and I would naturally like to touch on many of the points which he has raised, among which are films, publications, our Washington office as well as propaganda abroad, but I think it would be unfair for me to detain the Committee for that length of time as so many other hon. Members wish to speak. I will therefore limit myself to some wide considerations of the B.B.C. and future policy the country may adopt in the field of broadcasting as a result of the Charter coming up for review within the next year. Before passing on to that point, however, I ought, I believe, to make a disclaimer and remind the Committee that I was founder and am chairman of the International Broadcasting Company, the only other British Broadcasting Company in England who with the B.B.C. shared the task of entertaining the great British public. I have consequently had, in the past, an interest in this field. The International Broadcasting Company, as it could not use the wavelengths allotted to Great Britain, utilised facilities, quite legally afforded, in other countries where those facilities were provided and available. There has never been any question of using pirate- stations or pirate wave-lengths, because all the I.B.C. transmissions took place on wavelengths legally granted at international conferences at which the Governments concerned as well as our Government gave their sanction.
    In reviewing over a wide aspect what might be the future of the B.B.C. and of broadcasting generally in this country, we might analyse five different aspects—the aspect of monopoly, that of control, which my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg) touched upon, the question of expansion, the aspect of revenue and also the consideration of the position of broadcasting in this country within the framework of broadcasting as a whole throughout the world. Monopoly carries certain advantages but also certain disadvantages. A monopoly in the field of broadcasting might have been a very good thing at the beginning of a big change of outlook like the advent of radio

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    where the country no doubt wanted to feel that a certain amount of control was necessary over a medium which could and would greatly influence public opinion. I do not want in anything that I say to-day to appear to be a harsh critic of the B.B.C., I would in fact like to say that the B.B.C., within its framework and within its limitations, has done very good work. It had to start at the very beginning. It was entering a new field, and to be a pioneer is no easy task. In that respect, the B.B.C. was up against great difficulties and at the beginning, and subsequently, the B.B.C. overcame a good many of them. We owe a great debt of gratitude to the B.B.C. for taking up television, as it did, when there was no revenue in sight. Before the war, we were well ahead of other countries, and this including the United States of America. The coming of war has been a great setback, for us, and I would like to see to it that we should rapidly regain our lead the moment hostilities cease.
    The B.B.C. has certainly established a standard for news throughout the world which is quite unequalled when compared with the news of broadcasting systems of other countries throughout the world. But, none the less, news is a very small point indeed in broadcasting when viewed on the large scale it occupies. We have heard that news is such that everybody chooses to tune into the news regularly. That may be a point of view, but to radio as a world instrument, the news is as much an important item as newspaper headlines are to the printing press. Newspaper headlines are certainly a very small percentage of what the printing press does. I give this as a comparison of what radio news means within the great field of radio. If we grant monopoly we have to have a certain measure of control, and I am not quite sure that such a control is still necessary. If you do not have a certain amount of control, when a monopoly exists, then the public, who after all pay for the service, have no occasion whatever of making their desires felt. Take a recent example. The B.B.C. stopped the Forces Programme and substituted their General Forces Programme. The Minister told us at the time that this was done without consultation with him whatever. I am shocked to hear this. To put it mildly, a veritable deception was perpetrated on the British paying public, when suddenly the ordin-
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    ary Forces Programme was substituted by a General Forces Programme when this should have been for the past four years an additional programme on one of the available medium waves. For four years they had paid for that programme and were not allowed to hear it if they wished.
    The third point is that of expansion. Our broadcasting system is extremely small. The Minister mentioned some 900 broadcasting stations in America. We have, compared with the United States, in effect two stations as against their 900.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Is it not a fact that there are at least 200 of these American stations linked up together?
    Captain Plugge: My hon. Friend is correct. They are linked up, but in a very special and limited way. Certain of them are linked up, but they have an independent status and for quite half of the time on the air they are transmitting independent local programmes. Companies like the Columbia Broadcasting System have some 15 to 25 stations actually belonging to them, but the remainder of their 100 strong chain are locally owned and operated stations working on an arrangement. There is great room for expansion in this county, and that is where the monopoly of the B.B.C. has utterly failed. The B.B.C. has utterly failed internationally. Before the war Germany had 36 medium wavelengths when we had 12, and France, not much larger than us either in the number of inhabitants or area, had 25 wavelengths. After this war we shall have to, acquire for our own use a good many of the wavelengths which the Germans have been having, and if we provide, as this will do, for greater expansion the B.B.C. will require more revenue, to give us at last a real broadcasting service, that is to say, one with a great number of alternatives.
    I thus come to the question of advertising. The Committee, as always when any new subject is brought up to their notice, approached it with a very open mind. I would not like to think that the Committee would adopt the attitude of the Victorian father, who when his son made a suggestion, replied, "I will not hear of it," before he had heard any of the arguments for it. The very aged chairman of the North Eastern Railway, some

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    40 years ago, I am told, replied when a suggestion was made to him at a directors' board that the engines should be painted in brighter colours, "I do not care what colour the engines are painted so long as it is black." I want to think that the Committee will avoid that dogmatic attitude to a policy adopted in every part of the world. Suppose, for example, that the Cologne wavelengths were to become available for distribution, would hon. Members prefer German spoken all the time on that channel or an additional English alternative programme, with some advertising to pay for it? We must consider whether we should adopt the system practised in all our Dominions, in Canada, Australia and South Africa, of having two groups of distinct wavelengths, the one used by the chosen instrument, in our case the B.B.C., where there is no advertising, and another group of wavelengths on which advertising would be allowed. Those listeners who do not approve of advertising need never know of it.
    Earl Winterton: On a point of Order, Mr. Williams. I would like to know what is in Order. I understand that the B.B.C. has a Charter which is in an Act of this House, and is it in Order to discuss a matter in regard to which fresh legislation would be required?
    The Deputy-Chairman (Mr. Charles Williams): This Debate is very wide on the subject, but I do not think we ought to lay down too precisely the future of the B.B.C.
    Captain Plugge: I thank you, Mr. Williams. I understood it was in Order to discuss the revision of the B.B.C. Charter, but if that is not the case I will leave that point.
    The Deputy-Chairman: I think I had better add that the hon. and gallant Gentleman can give his ideas as to how the B.B.C. might be made better, but he ought not to discuss details of revising the Charter, as that would entail legislation.
    Captain Plugge: I thank you for your Ruling, Mr. Williams, and will act upon it.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Ian Fraser: Further to that point of Order. The Charter does not require legislation; it is a Royal Charter.
    Captain Plugge: In that case, does my hon. and gallant Friend's statement change your Ruling in any way, Mr. Williams?
    The Deputy-Chairman: I did not quite catch what the hon. and gallant Member said; I wonder if he would mind repeating it.
    Sir I. Fraser: I merely said it was a Royal Charter, but I am told by the Noble Lord that it would still require legislation.
    The Deputy-Chairman: I think probably it is a very technical point, and I had better keep to my original Ruling that we had better not run any risks of talking about legislation.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: May I point out that one of the items on the Order Paper is broadcasting and surely it is in Order to discuss that?
    The Deputy-Chairman: That is exactly what I have said. We have had a full discussion. I have no objection to anyone saying how he thinks he can improve broadcasting but hon. Members cannot go into a discussion of future legislation or Royal Charters.
    Captain Plugge: I thank you for that Ruling, Mr. Williams, and I will certainly do my very best to keep within the framework of what you have laid down. I pass on, therefore, to the fifth point, the position of broadcasting from this country within the world framework of radio. We must realise that broadcasting and radio are very different from anything else we have tackled before, because it is not limited to our country—it goes all round the world and it happens in every part of the world. If we restrict the activities of our national system we shall come to the same position as allowing a foreigner to open a shop in Piccadilly while forbidding an Englishman to do so. Our radio is not limited by the frontiers of our or any country. Therefore we must visualise the relationship of what is happening in other parts of the world, in terms of what is happening to ourselves. I am very fond of America and would not like in any way to criticise their activities, but I do not think we should admit of a home policy such as that while a large manufacturing country like America may allow its citizens to use

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    radio in every part of the world to talk at large about their goods and the qualities of those goods and yet our citizens are not allowed to use that valuable medium. If we do, then all over the world consumers will know about American products only and not British. This is a matter for the Prime Minister and the Department of Overseas Trade. It is very much the same as if you said suddenly that no Englishman should be allowed to advertise in a newspaper when other countries do. Radio is world-wide and not limited by frontiers. Therefore, we must consider the relative position of broadcasting in a world framework as a whole and follow, if we wish to live, the practice adopted by the majorities and not deprive our nationals and hamper them in their struggle.
    The war has provided very great opportunities. I do not suggest for a moment that America has taken undue advantage of these opportunities, but at the beginning of the war I urged most forcibly in this House the large expansion of our broadcasting and was not successful in persuading the Government to do so. We could have done it with ease then—no cost, no man-power, just foresight was required. In the meantime, America has taken advantage of our slackness and has built up world-wide chains which I wanted us to own in the first few years of the war. They have chains in Africa, in China, in Burma, and wherever their Armies are. They have an American Army Network where advertising of American products will be naturally and rightly carried on, on a large scale. Is the Minister going to adopt the policy that because we are British we must not utilise facilities granted to nationals of other countries? In our Colonies and in our very own country—radio penetrates everywhere. It would, I submit, be against the national policy of our country to prevent British subjects doing what other nationals are allowed to do in our countries and in other countries all over the world.
    I am sure the Minister did not mean to say, as he said in reply to a question, that the stations utilised by the company which I direct were pirate stations, because if it were so, the American station over here would be one too. Like the American station, broadcasting was always carried out with the sanction of the country where the operation took place, and on wavelengths of their own. I wanted
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    to make just a few general remarks in order to make the Committee realise that there is a lot more than they can possibly imagine in the world-wide field of radio. It is a very big change in our life and concept. It is much more than news and entertainment. We have the radio universities to consider. As I explained in another Debate, it is the transport of thought, of the soul, without the transport of the body around the world at the speed of light. There is a tremendous field of thought and progress for the next thousand years to come and we must not limit ourselves to this trifling annual turnover of£15,000,000—in, America the radio turnover is£150,000,000. Therefore, when the Charter comes up for review, I think a full Debate on that subject in this House would be useful, and I would like to ask the Minister to consider that when the time comes.
    Mr. A. Bevan: I am astonished at the extent to which hon. Members opposite have spent the day depreciating this country and deprecating our behaviour. I understand from them that there never were worse salesmen in this world than the British; that we have sold our case so badly in the past that we now have to make special efforts to put it right. I remember Speaking to a very eminent industrialist who was on a visit to this country some years ago. He said he thought that the British were the best salesmen the world had ever seen, and that though they had a dud case to sell they sold it. The idea that we ought to take special pains after the war to sell the British case to the world is the strongest sign of decadence that I have heard in this Chamber for many years. The hon. Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg) spent some time, as have many other hon. Members on that side of the Committee, asking for the continuation of the overseas section of the Ministry of Information, or some body connected with the Foreign Office, or a Cabinet Secretariat, or some such instrument, charged with the job of interpreting the British way of life to the rest of the world. That is the argument that has been put up from the other side of the Committee and I think that is an appalling point of view.
    I believe that the most effective way of making our way of life known to the rest of the world is by establishing the easiest communications between the people of

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    this country and the people of the rest of the world. In 1940 I paid a visit to the American section of the Ministry of Information and I suggested not that we should send a large number of lecturers and propagandists to America but that transport facilities should be made available for people of different professions to visit their opposite numbers in America, and to bring their opposite numbers in America here. The great failure during this war has been the fact that it is very difficult indeed for doctors, for educationists, for librarians and for politicians to cross the Atlantic and exchange views with their opposite numbers. Nothing could be worse than for large sums of public money to be spent on a self-conscious exertion to make the British views known to the rest of the world. Nothing would make us more suspect and nothing indeed would put the imprimatur of a small decaying country upon us than that self-conscious application.
    Sir E. Grigg: I particularly said that I deprecated propaganda in foreign countries. I went at some length into that matter and said it was entirely the wrong attitude for this country to adopt. What I was Speaking about was education, about facts in regard to the British Empire, not to the education of foreign people, but to the education of our own people, which the hon. Member also seems to require.
    Mr. Bevan: I do not know what the hon. Member meant by his last sentence. When he talked about education, about facts, that was simply a bromide. Talking about education merely conceals a desire to put certain ideas across as facts. We have heard that nonsense from the other side before. The hon. Member went so far as to say, in reply to an interruption from this side, that he was very glad to find that large numbers of people were now beginning to accept our point of view about India. If he reads the American Press, he will realise that, so far from that being the case, our relations with India at the present moment are a great source of pain and anxiety to many of our friends in America.
    My hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Horabin) suggested that we ought to have very much more forthright political controversy on the B.B.C. I can see many difficulties. It is quite
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    true that you can put party leaders on to speak, but there would not be much controversy now between the present party leaders. But there may be certain technical developments which will come to our rescue when the war is over. I understand that the development of shortwave radio may make it possible to provide a special wavelength for Parliament. I think that along those lines our salvation will lie. The House of Commons is not being properly interpreted by the newspapers to-day. As a matter of fact, British newspapers, since the war and immediately before the war began, have done more than any other British institution to undermine the prestige of Parliament. Indeed, some Parliamentary reports are disgraceful. Our Constitution depends upon three main supports—a free Press, a free Judiciary and a free Parliament. We have a free Judiciary, but we have not a free Press by any means, and some way will have to be found to enable Parliament to get across to the people. We must consider seriously the technical possibility of a wavelength for Parliament. I know there are objections to it, but I think they are far less great than they were, and in order that we might be able to appear as intimately to listeners as we appear together here there is no reason why we should not have television.
    Mr. Baxter: In a Debate which lasts for hours, how could anybody get an idea of what was going on, unless he spent the whole day listening?
    Mr. Bevan: That rests entirely with the listeners. They cannot get an idea now of what Parliament is discussing. If the Prime Minister makes a speech it is printed verbatim; no reply from anybody else is printed at all.
    Earl Winterton: It is a new feature of Parliamentary reporting.
    Mr. Bevan: I admit that the editors of the B.B.C. have had a considerable task to do in trying to broadcast Parliamentary Debates. Anybody who has listened to those broadcasts knows how impossible it is to try to put five or six hours' Debate into five or six minutes on the radio. The B.B.C. cannot be expected to do it; they do not do it and they do not pretend to do it. What is the way out? To ask the Government to put robust political controversy on the radio? It would mean

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    that they would select the speakers. I, as a critic, would never have a hope of broadcasting if the Government were allowed to select.
    Mr. George Griffiths: Not even on a Saturday night, at 7.45.
    Mr. Bevan: I said I would not speak long, and I must draw to a close. We must face the technical difficulties of broadcasting Parliamentary Debates on a special Parliamentary wavelength. When people read in the newspapers the matters that are coming before Parliament, they can then turn the wireless on when they like. If our Debates were listened to by large audiences outside, the reputation of Parliament would be enhanced. I think it is a great mistake for the B.B.C. to allow its activities to be confined by the revenue they obtain from the 10s. licences. It would be much better and more sensible if Parliament abolished the 10s. licence as a complete anachronism and made radio a free service to the British people.
    Sir Patrick Hannon: I intervene for only a few moments to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister on the successful activities of the Ministry of Information during the past year. I happen to be associated with various associations concerned with the expansion of British trade in various corners of the world, and I wish to express the indebtedness of the industrial and commercial community of this country to the Ministry for making the productive capacity and quality of our export trade known widely throughout the world. From time to time speeches are made in this House which may create very serious misunderstanding abroad. Hon. Members make speeches, with the best intentions in the world, in their anxiety to promote the interests of this ration and the Empire, but it must be remembered that there is a great variety of communities all over the world to which these speeches go by radio and Press. I am sorry I was not here to hear the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Luton (Mr. Burgin) but I understand he made a statement about the Latin-American Republics. I am President of the British and Latin-American Chamber of Commerce; I am in constant association with the whole of the South American Republics and I would
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    like the Committee to understand that we have had in this country, with one exception, the most complete sympathy and support from the South American peoples in this war. I know that my right hon. Friend the Member for Luton has been through the South American countries, and that he gave us a very interesting account recently of his experiences, and I am sure that he would be the last person in the world to say anything which might be misinterpreted or misunderstood in South America.
    I would like to emphasise the fact that in all my associations with the South American Republics, through diplomatic channels and industrial and commercial organisations, we have had, with the exception I have referred to, generous and outstanding support from the whole of those Republics. If my right hon. Friend's speech is reported in the South American Press, and it will be, I hope it will be made perfectly plain that in the House of Commons there is the fullest appreciation of the services which the South American Republics have rendered to us during this war.
    Earl Winterton: They are our Allies.
    Sir P. Hannon: The other matter I want to refer to is in connection with what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter), for whom I have a touching affection. He said, or it was implied in his speech, that Ministers used their public relations committees to "boost" themselves. I use that vulgar expression with great diffidence. For example, the Minister of Information would use his Public Relations Officers to show what a beautiful, handsome, attractive personality he is and what a high level of intellectual vigour he brings to bear upon the administration of his high office. The subject ought not to be discussed in that way here. Foreign commentators will say, "Here is a Member of Parliament, a journalist of outstanding importance and vitality—[An HON. MEMBER: "Who is 'boosting' now?"] My hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green, who has done work in Canada of immense service to this country——
    Earl Winterton: He said some rude things about a great many of us. He said my hon. Friend behind me and I were the biggest political failures in the House.
    The Deputy-Chairman: That matter would not be in Order on this Vote.
    Sir P. Hannon: We ought not to make speeches here which would lend themselves to misunderstanding in foreign countries, and some of the speeches might be interpreted in that way. I apologise to the Parliamentary Secretary for interrupting him when I said he ought to stand up and face us, and tell us, in his brilliant and bubbling way, the story that he had to convey to us. I am an old Member of the House—I have been here a quarter of a century—and I hope he will forgive me for having intervened.
    Mr. Lionel Berry: The Minister indicated that he thought the Debate would revolve on three separate subjects, the B.B.C., propaganda abroad, and the censorship department at home. Anyone who has listened to the Debate can be certain that that is the line it has taken. I should like to make a few remarks on the subject of the censorship, particularly the Press censorship, of which I have some personal experience. In the first place, I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Ormskirk (Commander King-Hall) that the censorship of the Press is a purely voluntary one. That is not altogether realised and I was glad to see it brought out so early in the Debate. Going back to the early days of the war, when the Ministry of Information first started, I think it could only be described as complete chaos. In those days it was quite a common occurrence for two editors to submit virtually the same story for censorship purposes and one would be rejected as unfit for publication and the other passed as quite in order. That was possibly because there was not the same control over the different censors and one took the line of least resistance and said, "I am not quite sure about this. I had better stop it," and the other, being more broadminded, said, "I do not see any harm in it," and let it go.
    That was the position at the beginning of the war. I draw a veil over what happened after that. My personal experience is limited to that period, because I was subsequently engaged in military duties, and it was not until two years later that I came back to see what was going on. I found a completely different state of affairs. There had been a com-
    916
    plete transformation. The octopus with its tentacles out, trying to grasp everything and control everything, had disappeared. The obstructionists who seemed only too anxious to prevent any enterprise of any kind had gone and that spirit of intolerance which seemed to discourage anyone trying to get on, had also disappeared. In its place was a businesslike organisation working precisely, efficiently, and effectively—perhaps not perfect but, compared with the previous state of affairs, very near perfection. The one person, to my mind, responsible for that transformation is my right hon. Friend the present Minister, and great credit is due to him, not only for effecting that change, but also for carrying throughout the whole of the Department the spirit which he instilled into it and which went right through the Ministry and right through the censorship department. I should like to pay a special tribute to the censors and particularly to the chief censor, Admiral Thomson, who has had a very difficult job to do, and I think I can speak on behalf of all newspaper people when I say we owe him a deep debt of gratitude.
    There is one other point, the question of the Service Departments' Press Bureaux and their relationship with the Ministry of Information. There has been a certain confusion at times with different stories emanating from two sources, and as a result a rather more optimistic or more pessimistic view of a situation has been presented in the newspapers due to their information from the Army or Air Force Press Bureau. I think this was particularly so in the case of the Anzio beachhead. After these landings were first effected everyone got optimistic about it as a great achievement, as it undoubtedly was, and one assumed it as going to be full steam ahead, and the stories which emanated from various sources seemed to confirm that. Then there was a swing round and things did not go on fast, so the newspapers were blamed for having been too optimistic, and subsequently they were blamed for being too pessimistic when things started to go right again. I cannot imagine anyone better suited than my right hon. Friend to supervise those different sources of information and put out a considered statement so that there is no confusion at all. I should like to assure my right hon. Friend that I,

    917
    for one, would not wish to join any party such as we saw in France yesterday had liquidated the gentleman who occupied the same position in that country.
    Mr. Edgar Granville: I think this is one of the most interesting Debates we have had on the Ministry of Information Vote and in some respects it is rather a pity that it could not be broadcast, as has been suggested. I agree with the criticism that in the news bulletin the B.B.C. does not report a Debate as such and that what often happens is that the speech of the Minister opening the Debate or replying at the end is reported almost as a pronunciamento, and that all other speeches are taken in his stride in the Minister's speech. There is a good deal to be said for giving the House of Commons its own wavelength and broadcasting these Debates. We might start with a Ministry of Information Debate itself, which might give us an opportunity to criticise the B.B.C. to a wider audience. This has been tried in New Zealand with considerable success. If you do not want to listen you turn off the radio.
    But I would like to pay my tribute to the Minister of Information. The right hon. Gentleman inherited a difficult position. He is one of the successes of this Government. His friendly critics are in Fleet Street and his relations with his House of Commons critics continue to be friendly. It is true that occasionally at public luncheons he pounces upon the critics, and sometimes he handles his facts a little flamboyantly, but he does it with a saving grace because he has flair. Not only has he flair, but he has power. He is fairly close to the top of the tree. He took the precaution to hitch his wagon to a star. He chose a pretty good star, and he is enjoying his stratosphere success. The whole House recognises that the right hon. Gentleman has made good on his own two feet. Because of that flair and the considerable power that he enjoys, he is in a democracy of to-day what we consider the white hope of the world of truth. I am not going to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman, in a very difficult office, is a sort of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, or that there is a kind of secret tunnel between the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting House in which no critic ever gets an illuminating light. However, I do not accept the
    918
    point of view of my right hon. Friend the Member for Luton (Dr. Burgin) that the Ministry of Information should be abolished, for that would have nothing less than chaotic effect.
    The Minister of Information has absolute wartime control of the B.B.C. He appoints the Governors. He has the Charter vested in his own name. He has control of the censorship, which was referred to by the Parliamentary Secretary in his interesting speech. He is the voice of national security. He is often the voice of the Prime Minister as well. It is said that he and the Lord Privy Seal are the Prime Minister's closest advisers. If that is not power in that responsible office, I would like to know what power is. A nod from the right hon. Gentleman to the B.B.C. is as good as a rocket on the studio. I submit that if some of these powers, which are bound to be associated with the tremendous development in the authority and influence which are exercised by broadcasting, were handed over to a monopoly we might set up something which in the world public opinion would be a rival to the Government Front Bench.
    I do not think the House of Commons fully understands the tremendous power of radio in the world. A leader in "The Times" may upset foreign relations and may do similar things, politically; and it is probably read by 300,000 people. I am told that a nationwide or worldwide hook-up of the Prime Minister's Speech can be listened to by 20,000,000 or 30,000,000 people. If the B.B.C. is to remain a monopoly and a powerful engine of propaganda and education, we must keep the control of it in this House where at least we have the opportunity of criticising it in speeches and questioning the Minister. This tremendous power is something new in our public and political life, and it has created new problems in our democratic practice. The relations between the Government and monopoly broadcasting must be defined in the future either by a Royal Commission or by a Speaker's conference.
    Meanwhile, we are approaching some time in the future a General Election. The Government's election policy is of course going on the air day by day. The Prime Minister has already broadcast his Four-year Plan. It will not be any good giving the usual 30 minutes during the election

    919
    to each of the leaders, although I am told that Viscount Snowden's broadcast during the 1931 election did more to influence that result than anything else. It will not be any good giving the leaders of the Labour or Liberal Party 30 minutes to state their policy during the election. The whole of the Government's coalition policy will be put forward by then, and they know it. If we are to remain a democracy and not a single-party or coalition State, I would ask whether the time has not now come to open the doors of the B.B.C. to honest straightforward political talks and discussions. I regard the problem of monopoly broadcasting and the relationship of the Government to the control of that monopoly as one of the most important issues we shall have as a democracy to face in the future. I would like to see an all-party or representative Committee set up by the right hon. Gentleman to go into the question of how much time and opportunity should be given to the various parties in this House to put over to the British people who are fighting for democracy the various policies that are discussed in this House. This Committee could report to the House of Commons on the suggested arrangements for the immediate future.
    Mr. Bracken: We have certainly had a most interesting Debate. Let me begin by dealing with the various points which have been raised. My right hon. Friend the Member for Luton (Mr. Burgin) made some remarks about the censorship. I can give the Committee the assurance that the British censors, who are undoubtedly the most sensible, and at the same time the fairest, censors in the world, are like mules. The reason why they are like mules, is that they have no pride in their ancestry and they have no hope of posterity. Let me say in passing how pleased I was to hear the tribute paid to the censors by the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Lionel Berry). It is the most harassing and dreadful life that ever could be taken on by human beings for their occupation. They are shot at by the security people and by the Press, and I consider that our Censorship Department, which I might point out was originally reformed and put into its present order by Sir Cyril Radcliffe, the Director-General of the Ministry of Information, is doing exceptionally good work. It was later inherited by Mr. Francis Williams,
    920
    a member of the party opposite, an extraordinarily wise and shrewd guardian in his capacity as Controller of the Press and Censorship. Then there is Admiral Thomson, who has been praised so highly. I have often said to the Admiral: "You spent the whole of your life in submarines; why didn't you stay there rather than take on the job you have now?"
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Luton also referred to our tours. It is true that in a small way the Ministry of Information, as a sort of by-occupation, has set up this business, which is not as big as Thomas Cook's although it is certainly no less efficient. The gentleman who runs them is well known to hon. Members of this Committee. His name is Mr. Jobson. Many people who have experience of his efficiency have referred to him as a killer, and when I have asked them why they apply this uncharitable designation to him they have said: "He insists upon showing us every aspect of the war effort and when we go home we have to go to bed for a month to recover." I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for bringing his name before the Committee.
    As to the suggestion that the Ministry of Information are lacking in eagerness to describe the German character to the British people, I can only say that I think my right hon. Friend ought to listen to Mr. Sefton Delmer and one or two other gentlemen employed to broadcast every night. He would then see that we are under no delusion whatsoever as to the German character or as to the intentions of the German General Staff when this war is over. No doubt, one of these days, when our victory has been won, the German General Staff will fish out Pastor Niemoller from his concentration camp and say: "Here is a great Liberal statesman who will lead the Germans." Lead them to do what? Those are the things which the British public should take great interest in. There is no reason why the British Ministry of Information should go about rubbing this matter in too often. We have far too much respect for the intelligence of the British public than to think that stress is necessary in this connection. I believe that the publication by the Foreign Secretary in the House last week of the facts about those 50 officers of the Royal Air Force who were murdered in cold blood is the best possible

    921
    method of bringing home to the mass of the public the diabolical nature of the enemy whom we are fighting.
    As to the Japanese, in my opinion, it is not necessary for the Ministry of Information or any other publicity institution to do anything but call them savages. They are savages, brutal savages. They are Eastern Prussians. They are worse than Prussians, and they will have to get the most exemplary punishment ever inflicted on a nation in history. When that has been done, the world will be a better place for us all to live in. But do not let me get too deeply involved in foreign policy lest the Foreign Secretary should feel that I am trespassing on his domain.
    I was pleased with the remarks made by the right hon. Gentleman about the quarters given to Ministry of Information representatives and to diplomats in various parts of the world. What has always struck me as a perfect example of ineptitude is the way in which we have handled the housing of lour diplomats abroad. Maybe the diplomat has been a poor man who has had to find his own furniture. If he has been a rich man he may have said: "This is pretty crude stuff, bought from Maples during the reign of Queen Victoria. I would rather have something different." That kind of thing is out of date. All our Embassies and our Legations abroad and Government offices should be properly furnished and this should be done with a certain amount of taste and judgment. Whoever is the occupier for the time being should be put to no expense whatsoever. That is one of the many good points raised by my right hon. Friend's tour overseas.
    My hon. Friend the Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) certainly did make a tremendous speech to-day. When he gets to talking about stimulating British morale, let me tell him that the one thing for which the Ministry of Information is not particularly qualified is to stimulate British morale. It is no more qualified to stimulate British morale, than I am to take on, for the sake of argument, the duties of the Pope. Nor would we be so impudent. British morale wants no strengthening from any quarter of the world. The one thing which depresses the public is even to talk about British morale. My hon. Friend asked me a number of questions. He did not like the word "propaganda." Most people do not like
    922
    it. Mr. Baldwin—Lord Baldwin, I beg his pardon—talked about the evil name of propaganda, but it is a perfectly respectable name, attached to one of the most profoundly religious institutions in the world. It is really too respectable a veneer to put upon a thing like the Ministry of Information. I do not mind the use of the word "propaganda." In fad, I welcome it. There is nothing wrong with the name except that it connotes to certain minds something they do not really quite understand.
    Now as to "The Week in Westminster"; it is a good opportunity for Members of Parliament to broadcast. I think I am one of the few Members of this House who have never broadcast. So I can speak without fear. "The Week in Westminster" has been interesting. The Whips are no longer consulted on the choice of speakers. This is done entirely by the B.B.C. and if they liked to run the risk of asking the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan) to broadcast, does the hon. Member think for one second that he would let the B.B.C. persuade him to put on a sort of innocuous bromide——
    Mr. A. Bevan: I would not dream for a single moment of accepting an invitation to broadcast in "The Week in Westminster" if I had to give an impartial account of the week's Debate.
    Mr. Bracken: That was what I said, only the hon. Member has said it in longer words. If you want an impartial account of the week's work in Westminster, in my judgment a Lobby correspondent should be asked to do it. We should not expect Members who belong to a party, and hold very strong political views, to lose their reputations for political controversy when they approach the microphone. The hon. Member for West Islington also said that the Brains Trust was addled, and he then proceeded to give a long series of quotations from Dr. Joad, one of the principal contributors to the Brains Trust. I am not sure that when Dr. Joad reads HANSARD to-morrow he will feel very complimented. If the Brains Trust is addled, it is a matter for the Governors of the B.B.C. One of the most useful things they could do is to investigate this for themselves. I never listen to the Brains Trust.

    923
    My hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter) spoke, and I was sorry to miss his speech. It was certainly far too kind to me. He listed the names of my predecessors in their exact order—Lord Macmillan, Lord Reith and the right hon. Member for St. George's (Mr. Duff Cooper). Let me tell my hon. Friend two things. The first is that none of my predecessors had any victories to work on. It is very hard to be a Minister of Information, or of propaganda, if you do not have a victory. The second point is that all Ministries of Information in every country have begun badly, and in the case of one a quisling Minister has ended badly. It is crystal clear that every country that has started a Ministry of Information, an Office of War Information or whatever they call it, has looked for trouble and has found it.
    Those points must be remembered. I say that Lord Macmillan, who is one of the greatest lawyers at the Bar, a public servant of great distinction, Lord Reith, a man of tremendous ability, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's, now serving as our Ambassador in Algiers—these men were far superior in every way to your humble. The only reason the Ministry of Information has settled down to its present position is that the House of Commons as time passed has lost its curiosity and its original energy in chasing the Ministry of Information around. The hon. and gallant Member for Hornsey (Captain Gammans) asked me about Russian reciprocity. I must say they are showing extraordinary reciprocity. I am very grateful indeed to the authorities in Russia for helping us so much in doubling the circulation of the newspaper we publish there. He asked me if there would be an examination of the Charter of the B.B.C. I say, yes. I think there ought to be. I think that the time has come for an examination. As a matter of fact the Reconstruction Committee are having a preliminary look at what can best be done for the B.B.C.'s future.
    The hon. and gallant Member far Ormskirk (Commander King-Hall) said it was proposed that the B.B.C. should put their institution under the fiery trial of a Brains Trust. I think that is probably a good idea and I cannot understand why the Governors should refuse. He made some remark about
    924
    the Beavenbrook Press not liking the Ministry of Information. I am bound to tell him that almost all the Press share the opinion of the Beaverbrook Press—[Interruption]—except the "Daily Worker." Newspapers do not like any institution which in their judgment can sift news or can prevent newspapers, through censorship, from dealing with the news. I do not blame newspapers at all. I was the only Member of the House of Commons who opposed setting up a Ministry of Information, so I speak with great authority on it. The newspapers do not like the Ministry of Information. I think if you went to the most respectable newspaper proprietor—[An HON. MEMBER: "Which one?"]—the hon. Member asks me to choose between so many—he would say the same thing, that they do not like the Ministry of Information. I do not object in any way. It is not my business to cultivate their favours or their thanks. I do not suppose that the House will be over-influenced by the Press, just as the Press is not over-influenced by the House.
    The hon. and gallant Gentleman mentioned some of the things that happened before the war. I think he was quite right. There was that trashy man Ribbentrop, who sent an official protest to the Foreign Office because of an article in the "Strand Magazine" by the present Prime Minister. But the impudence of the Hun was tremendous then. I think that in future there will be greater toughness in foreign policy and that if an Ambassador goes again with such a complaint he will be told to go back and he will be warned not to disfigure Carlton House Terrace. When Ribbentrop was Ambassador here he removed all the amenities of two houses in Carlton House Terrace, thereby taking away a little of our architectural inheritance. [An HON. MEMBER: "He was well feted when he was here."] Not by me. [Interruption.] The so-called Cliveden which has so often been mentioned would need to be bigger than the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel ink New York to hold all the persons who are supposed to have crowded into the place.
    Let us go on with the hon. Member for County Down (Dr. Little). I realise that he is a strong Evangelical churchman. I will bring his point of view to the attention of the B.B.C. I am not very much shocked by the language he quoted,

    925
    but I know there are a great number of people who are, and I will bring it to the attention of the Governors of the B.B.C.
    Earl Winterton: The right hon. Gentleman does raise rather an important point. The hon. Member does not object, for example, to plays where the name of the Deity is brought in—in so far as I could hear what he said. What I think he really objected to was to the use of the name of the Deity as a swear word. The right hon. Gentleman is surely not going to suggest that he will curtail entertainment activity, to please the hon. Member for Down (Dr. Little)?
    Mr. Bracken: I said I would bring it to the attention of the B.B.C. It is for the Governors to decide. [Interruption.] The medical adviser to the Labour Party really ought to——
    Dr. Morgan: May I inform the Minister of Information that he is wrong again? I am not the medical adviser to the Labour Party.
    Mr. Bracken: I apologise very much. The hon. Member is medical adviser to a much tougher and stronger authority, the T.U.C. He has also the advantage of being one of my constituents.
    The hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Tree) should really be called the Casablanca of the Ministry of Information, because I think he served all four Ministers as Parliamentary Private Secretary. He did much more than that. In the darkest days of the Ministry of Information the hon. Member for Harborough worked and kept the team together in the most splendid fashion. I cannot acknowledge sufficiently in this Committee the help I have had from my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough. He rendered the most splendid service to the Ministry of Information, and to its staff, in the darkest hours. I shall take a lot of notice of what he said to-day, and I think I may say that the Prime Minister will do likewise. He has great respect for my hon. Friend for the services he rendered to his country without any Ministerial ambition, and without any desire for any other recognition for doing his duty.
    The hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Horabin) made a very sweeping invitation to me. Let me begin by telling him that I am in favour of controversy on the B.B.C. Of course I am. Argu-
    926
    ment is the basis of democracy. But controversy is much bigger than just political-party controversy. There are a great many other subjects just as interesting as politics. I do not think controversy stops with debates between Liberals and National Liberals, Tories and Tory Reformers or with debates between the two great B's of the Labour Party who add so much to the controversial life of this country. I wish to make it quite clear to the hon. Gentleman that I wish there should be violent political controversy, but not just that. I would like to see the B.B.C. become a forum, and that both sides should be allowed to state their case.
    Mr. Montague: The right hon. Gentleman has not referred to the issue I raised—the question of religious controversy.
    Mr. Bracken: I am quite willing to refer to it. I have no intention, at any time, of asking the Governors of the B.B.C. what their policy is in allowing religious discussions. My hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg) raised the point——
    Mr. Montague: The right hon. Gentleman's words are not so brave after all.
    Mr. Bracken: Perhaps the hon. Member will listen a moment. What qualifications has anyone who occupies the post of Minister of Information to ask the Governors of the B.B.C. to ask their religious advisers whether they are proceeding on the right lines? First, I have not the time to do it and, secondly, I have not the qualifications to do it; and, as I am a politician, it would be indecent if I attempted to do it. The hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. I. Thomas) has been engaged in dividing up the carcase of the Ministry of Information, and he has offered parts of it, for instance, to the Cabinet Secretariat. I happen to know the Cabinet Secretariat very well, and I can tell the hon. Member that they will look that gift horse in the mouth. The Cabinet Secretariat cannot adopt any executive function. I think that too much work has already been placed on their shoulders. In my judgment, it would be very foolish indeed to ask them to take over what the hon. Member described as a Gallup poll. I am not so very keen on Gallup polls. I think that they can be made to prove any proposition. Even if run by the respectable officers of the Cabinet Secre-

    927
    tariat, I think that a Gallup poll would not carry very much of the hall-mark of truth.
    Mr. Ivor Thomas: If the right hon. Gentleman holds those views, he has no alternative but to discontinue the Social Survey.
    Mr. Bracken: On the contrary, you can have the assistance of those gentlemen provided that you do not take their conclusions as ranking with the Ten Commandments. My hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg) is a pioneer of the Ministry of Information: he was the first Parliamentary Under-Secretary; and he gave us a lurid account of his experiences. I quite agree with what he said about the desirability of educating Britons to understand more about American history—though I think there ought to be some reciprocity—but that is a job for the President of the Board of Education, certainly not for the Minister of Information, especially in view of the fact that he is shortly going to be sent to the knacker. On one point I disagreed with my hon. Friend. He talked about the Ministry of Information's temperature-taking. We have steadily resisted at all times any attempt to take the temperature of the public. My view is that the British public are so fundamentally sensible that I shall not put my ear to the ground to find out what they are going to do—if I did, I should soon be deaf. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chatham (Captain Plugge) has made a number of technical suggestions, which will be carefully considered by the Committee which has been set up to consider the whole future of broadcasting. I have an open mind on the subject. I have no doubt that the Committee will examine the suggestions of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, because he knows a great deal about the subject; I do not. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale was, indeed most unfair to the Press. I do not know what has become of that milk of human kindness which flowed from him so much in this House in the last few years. Now he gives the Press a good beating-up, and says that they do not give any report of what happens in the House of Commons. I am a reader of the "Tribune." It consists of 32 pages, and what does it give of Parliament? One small stick—just a couple of paragraphs.
    Mr. Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman obviously does not read it. There are two whole columns.
    Mr. Bracken: Why does the hon. Member not devote most of it to this business of popularising Parliament? The hon. Gentleman, in the capacity of editor, is a tremendous autocrat. He treats his Parliamentary correspondent much worse than Lord Camrose, Lord Kemsley, and Lord Beaverbrook do theirs.
    Mr. Bevan: There are 20 pages in the "Tribune," and more space is devoted to Parliament than in any other paper.
    Mr. Bracken: The hon. Gentleman cannot get away with that; he must study his own paper. The hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Granville) made an assertion that I appoint the Governors of the B.B.C. That is quite wrong. I do not. The Governors of the B.B.C. are appointed by the Prime Minister, not by the Minister of Information. He also made some remarks about hitching my wagon to a star. I remember that when the Prime Minister and I were a party of two, there was no stardom.
    Earl Winterton: It was a case of Man Friday; was it not?
    Mr. Bracken: I should think so. I could not imagine a better description myself, but I am bound to tell the Committee that Lord Baldwin, in one of the few witty remarks he made in this House, gave an even better description, when he described your humble servant as "the faithful chela."
    We have had a very interesting Debate, and I want to make a sort of summing up. The Ministry of Information has been much over-criticised in the past, and is much over-praised to-day. The future of the Ministry of Information will be, of course, decided by the Cabinet. But also the staff of the Ministry of Information are going to have a say about their future. They enlisted for a war job. They have done it very well indeed, but they are not seeking Government posts. I have had to borrow from their professions and businesses some of the ablest men in this country. I regard it as a piece of arrogance when people say, "These people must be dismissed after the war." But do not be so sure that the Ministry of Information has any desire to live for a long time. I imagine that they would

    929
    agree with me when I say that I have not come to the House of Commons to bury the Ministry of Information: I have not even come to praise it. I have merely told the facts about the Ministry of Information; and I leave it to the historians, if they have a column or two to spare in their histories, to say whether the Ministry have done a good job in this war or not.
    Ordered:
    "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—[Captain McEwen.]
    Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  COALMINES (DIRECTED YOUTHS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain McEwen.]
  Major C. S. Taylor: On 25th May last I asked the Minister of Labour a Question about certain aspects of the scheme, which has been brought into being, of a ballot for the coalmines. I do not much like having to raise this matter to-day, when military operations are progressing with such vigour and such good effect, but, for a country that has resisted so long all ideas of national or State lotteries, I believe that this ballot scheme is, to put it mildly, very unwelcome. All of us, perhaps, like a little bit of a flutter or a small gamble, but in this case those mostly concerned are not entering the gamble because they want to do so; they are not in any way staking their worldly goods. They are merely the chips of the party, by Government decree, and they are being gambled with to decide whether they shall be allowed to play their part in winning this war in the way they would like to do it or be sent underground to the coalmines.
  It being the hour appointed for the interruption of Business, the Motion for Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. Pym.]
  Major Taylor: In war-time, some people may say that this is not particularly harsh, as I think everybody throughout the whole country has had to suffer some
  930
  hardship or inconvenience due to wartime conditions, but the case that I want to put to-day is the case of the boy who has joined the A.T.C., or some other pre-Service organisation, and who, having fitted himself for a Service life, and perhaps a Service career, having trained himself and become enthralled with the idea of the Service into which he hoped to go, is debarred, by the unlucky draw of a ticket from a hat, and is sent down a coalmine. He is no longer a possible recipient of the V.C. or some other lesser decoration for gallantry, about which he has so often dreamed. He is sent away to do a job for which he has no training whatever.
  I do not think anybody will accuse me of being a snob, and I am not making a special appeal for any class of boy in this matter. I believe that all those who go into pre-Service organisations should have the same chances and opportunities, and I and some of my hon. Friends feel that those who prove themselves willing and fit by training for modern warfare, those who aspire to be parachutists or glider pilots, or even the ordinary, plain infantry soldier, should not be sent forcibly down coalmines. I believe there are a number of miners in the Services now who would only be too ready and willing to return to their pre-war occupations and to their wives and families, and I would like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary whether any suggestion has been made to these ex-miners. They know, of course, that a miner gets very much more pay than, a soldier, but I want to ask if they have been invited to return and if it has been explained to them that they would come back to their wives and families and their pre-war occupations. Has the suggestion been made to ex-miners who have had three or four years abroad? I feel that many of them would welcome the opportunity to return if the suggestion were put forward in the proper way. I want to know why it is that, when you have these skilled workers in an industry who are, or could be made, available, you should take skilled workers or men who are training to become skilled workers, from another industry, the Army, because there is no more skilled workman than the private soldier in the Army in these days.
  We know there has been a serious coal shortage, and I am afraid it is very largely due to weakness on the part of the

  931
  Government. I am not going into the merits or demerits of private enterprise or State control, but I must say that the miner, who has a very unpleasant job to do, deserves fair and good wages, but he has not got the danger, and has got far better pay than the man in the Army. [Interruption.] I wish I had time to read a number of letters which I have received about these boys who have become known as Bevin boys. I want however to read some extracts from one of them. It came from a sergeant in the Royal Engineers, who writes about his younger son being ordered down the mine. He is a sergeant who was evacuated from France and went all through the North African campaign. He has five brothers, all volunteers in the Services, and the whole family is proud of the record. At the age of 17 the youngest son volunteered for the Navy and was accepted, but there was no vacancy, so he volunteered for the Army. He passed all his tests and he was told to go home and wait until he was called up, and he eventually was not allowed to join the Army but was sent to the pits.
  Some of the Bevin boys have done a grand job and they have not reasoned why, but because the letter must be observed I should like to know how many potentially brave soldiers have been perhaps sent to prison because they refused to obey the Minister of Labour's directions to go down the pits. It would be interesting also to know how many, if any, of the men who joined in unofficial strikes in various industries have been sent to prison for disobeying Government orders. I do not believe that the boys who disobey the order are cowards. Everyone admits the need in these days for conscription for National Service, but we still like to believe and think that we are a free people. The scheme of the ballot is something quite different and is taking away a little too much of our freedom. I believe now that poker has been made an illegal game. We should stop using chaps as chips. The fate of these boys is not decided by merit, by their training or their desire to serve but more or less by the spin of a wheel.
  I urge the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary to get together and reconsider this very undesirable system, and if they are still convinced that it must
  932
  remain, I urge them to consider exempting those who have shown themselves specially fitted for a Service career. The hon. and gallant Member for Oxford University (Petty Officer Herbert) wrote a poem on this subject, and I make no apology for reading it to the House before I sit down:
  "Yes, Yes, my boy, by all means train for war:
  Do knots and splices, morse and semaphore; And learn to drill, and how to use a gun, To sail the ocean, and destroy the Hun.
  Study the stars, the secrets of the sky, And fix your dreams upon the day you fly. And then, when you're proficient, keen and fit,
  We'll raffle you, and put you down a pit.
  Science prevails. The more that we advance The fewer things we like to leave to Chance. See how the racehorse, from the age of two, Is fashioned for the job he has to do.
  We do not train the falcon or the hound And then decide to send them underground. But when we want our boys to give their best
  We use a hat—and Fortune does the rest."
  Mr. Glanville: The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just finished his marvellous oration has talked about the mining industry as though it were something to be despised and about the Army as a glorious career.
  Major Taylor: No.
  Mr. Glanville: The hon. and gallant Member has talked about the dangers of the men in the Forces and about the high wages of the men in the mines. He thinks that our right to work in the mines is the heritage of those of us who are born miners. The hon. and gallant Member may shake his head as he likes. I commenced work in a coalmine at twelve years of age. I only finished it six months ago when I came to this House. I feel that the whole of my life I have followed an honourable occupation and worked among heroes. Every man among them is a hero. Where are our young miners? After the capitulation of France the coal mines in our areas were closed down. These men were not allowed to remain idle and draw the dole; they were drafted to the factories all over the country to assist in supplying munitions of war. From there they were automatically transferred to the Services at calling-up age. That is where all our young miners are. We have many young miners at this moment who would return to the mines

  933
  to-morrow but the unfortunate thing is that they are soldiers who are really necessary in this war. They are out on the various fronts going through hell—as they have done all their lives in the coalmines. You cannot bring them back and send these ballotees out to take their places.
  The man-power problem of this country is surely a difficult one, and any man at the moment ought to go wherever he is directed, realising that every job is important. What is wrong with the ballot? The hon. Member says it is a lottery—a lottery in human beings. Well, in the mines we put what is called a "cable" in every three months. We have good places and bad places in the pit. The name of every man goes into the "cable" every three months, so that if he gets a bad "cable" one quarter and has to work under wet, low, and difficult conditions, he has a possibility, in three months' time, of getting a good one. What is wrong with that? All our lives we have been balloted—we have come out of the hat. It is not a new experience for us, but now it is affecting other people.
  Let me say this. Stop talking about these lads as boys—they are not boys, they are men. They are 18 years of age, the youngest of them. I went down a coalmine when I was twelve, and I was a developed, experienced man by the time I was 18. Why instil the spirit of fear into these lads? Why not accept it as a "cable" which is drawn only for a temporary period? As soon as we have reached the successful conclusion of this war our own boys will come home, and they will supply all the coal that is necessary. Surely if the right hon. Gentleman has said that so much man-power is available, so much is needed here, so much there, so much in the Forces, so much in the mines, under a system of conscription of man-power, every man, no matter where he draws his "cable," ought to be prepared to shoulder his responsibilities. The miners invariably go wherever their "cable" takes them; they always face up to their responsibilities.
  Let me say this in conclusion. The young fellows who are going up there to train will get every encouragement and assistance from the men already in the industry. We welcome them. We understand that the job is new to them. We understand that it will be strange, but
  934
  why terrify them before they come, and why seek these subterfuges and dodges to take them away from their responsibilities? Why not say, "Well, boys, it is the luck of the ballot. Go that way." But hon. Members opposite seem to think that we are the only people, that we were bred and born to be miners and we have no right to expect to be anything else; that we are a sort of underground rats for you people; that we were made to ferret in little holes, while you glory on the surface. It is quite a horrible view, and it says very little indeed for the patriotism of the people who occupy those benches.
  Major Taylor Major Taylor rose——
  Mr. Glanville: I am not concerned with interjections. I do not talk much in this Chamber but when I do, I know what I am talking about. I say again that we accept as inevitable that there must be conscription of man-power when there is a shortage. That was accepted as a general principle. But as soon as it comes to the point where your sons have to enter the horrible occupation of coalmining, you are immediately up in arms and you say, "Oh, but we did not mean them to go down the mines at all." Hon. Members opposite will not be able to forget that, and when miners apply for increased wages and shorter hours after the war, they will not be able to say that that application should not succeed.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. McCorquodale): I think it is a good thing that we are having this brief Debate today. The hon. Member for Consett (Mr. Glanville) will not mind if I do not follow him into the matter of wages and hours after the war, otherwise I should not have time to say what I really want to say. The House has accepted the principle of the ballot, as being the fairest and most impartial method of recruitment of a special class of young men to the mines. I say that definitely because I, at any rate, have not heard of any other solution of the problem which could be compared in fairness to that. I do not believe any other solution has been forthcoming from any other quarter. I will not take up the time of the House by re-arguing the case of the ballot, but there are two things I would like to say about it: I agree with the hon. Member for Consett in saying

  935
  that there is nothing wrong about going to work in a coalmine. There is no indignity in it, and I hope that that idea will never become widespread.
  It is said that it is very hard for a young man who had been keen to go into the Services to be sent to the mines. Well, it is, but there are not very many thousands of boys who have been directed so far, whereas hundreds of thousands of women who have wished to go into the Armed Forces have been directed into industry, often dangerous, dirty and heavy work, in explosives and filling factories and the like. I have heard no complaints from the women at all, and I suggest to the young men who are making this fuss—there are only a few, thank goodness—that they should consider what their sisters have done in industry and what they are doing. They are doing a splendid job. There are exceptions to the ballot; there are special exceptions for certain military duties which had special treatment before the ballot was ever invented. The main exemption from the ballot is for those who volunteer and are accepted for flying duties, either in the Fleet Air Arm or the Royal Air Force. All those are exempted from the ballot. Before the ballot in many trades where they were not allowed to volunteer or enlist for other service they could volunteer for flying, and that is why we made that exception. Then those under the conscription age can volunteer, and there are one or two highly skilled categories who are always treated exceptionally.
  If we make new categories of exemption from the ballot of boys who have been in one of the pre-Service training corps, we are making a breach in the impartiality of the ballot, and the breach would widen until the whole thing was swept away. An essential feature of the ballot is that all classes of the community are within the field of selection. Now boys from public schools, secondary, grammar and boarding schools almost all join one of the pre-Service training corps. In many places it is more or less compulsory. If we said that those who had been in the pre-Service training corps had exemption from the ballot, it would mean that we should remove those classes altogether, and I cannot believe that that would be acceptable in the light of the principle that all classes must come within
  936
  the ballot. Therefore, if we are going to maintain this principle of the fairness of the ballot, we must not have any more exemptions, and I am afraid I cannot agree to any suggestion that boys who have been in pre-Service training corps should be exempted from the ballot. There are many boys who would like to join pre-Service training corps who have not had the facilities or opportunities to do so owing to the nature of their work or to where they have lived. If we are to be fair, we must not open any more exceptions. The ballot is working at the moment, admirably. There is very little trouble with it. The scheme is working very much better than we expected and I do not want to tinker with it, and possibly mess it up altogether.
  The field of the ballot from the medical point of view is this. The ballot is confined to men under 25 and medically graded Grade 1 or Grade 2a (feet). Medical Grade 2a (feet) means Grade 1 physique but with some deformity of the lower extremities. If a boy who has passed in these Grades claims that he is unfit for mining, he is re-examined by a Medical Board. If he contends that he is suffering from claustrophobia and this is not accepted by the Medical Board, he is kept under observation at the training centre. If it is accepted, he is marked as unfit for coalmining. When men enter the Government training scheme they are inspected by a medical officer once more to see that there has been no obvious deterioration in their health. We allow all sorts of appeals to be heard to see that no exceptional hardship will be caused by the men being directed to the mines. Immediately after each ballot men whose numbers have been picked are sent a letter saying that they are selected for underground duties and that it is proposed to direct them to a training school for courses of training. The letter states that the man may appeal against his direction if he con-skiers that there are special circumstances. He has already had an opportunity of appealing on general hardship grounds when he has had his medical examination. Incidentally even after he has been accepted for the ballot and before he has received his direction, he can still volunteer for flying duties. If he is accepted he is excluded from the ballot.
  When he gets to the Government training centre where he remains for a month,

  937
  we endeavour to give him a short acclimatisation course. Emphasis is laid on very good physical training. I went round on a short inspection of some of our training centres with my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel, and I was much impressed with all I saw, especially with the physical exercises and training getting the men fit for the special strains they will have to undertake when they go down the mines. Lectures and cinema shows formed part of the training, together with a course on underground work and on a prepared tram above ground. We have found that wherever these young men have gone they have been welcomed wholeheartedly by the miners in the district. I cannot pay too high a tribute to the miners and their wives and families for the way they have accepted these young men. They have been billeted on them, and wherever I went in Yorkshire, Durham and Northumberland—and I am told it is the same in other parts—there were no complaints from our welfare officers that there has been any lack of warmheartedness in the welcome the miners have given to these boys. I should also like to thank the managements who have co-operated with the Government training centres and the training managers for making the training as efficient as possible.
  I was told everywhere I went that the young men, in arriving at the training centres and going down the mines for the first time, and generally entering into the
  938
  life of the coalmining industry, have been one and all agreeably surprised at their welcome. They find that the life is not nearly so bad as they had been led to believe, and, indeed, a great number of them have taken to it with something akin to enthusiasm. The reports we have received on all hands show that the many thousands of those who have gone out of the training centres and into the pits are pulling their weight. We have had very few cases of young men who are not pulling their weight. In the overwhelming number of cases they are doing exceptionally well, and the mining industry is delighted to have them. I wish them luck.
  Now the idea of training centres for the mining world is a new one and an interesting innovation, and I believe it will have far-reaching effects. I suggest that during the Recess hon. Members might pay a visit to one of the centres or one of the admirable hostels that have been put up by the Ministry of Works for housing some of these young men. I am sure they would be impressed and encouraged by the spirit in which these young men are going into the mining world. If hon. Members accept that invitation, I would like to suggest that they do not regard these young men as exhibits, but that they will go to see a decent lot of young Englishmen and Scotsmen doing a job of work which is the best they could possibly do in the interests of the life of the nation, at the present time.
  Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.

  KENYA (PYRETHRUM CROP)
  KENYA (PYRETHRUM CROP)
  EDUCATION (BRITISH EMPIRE INSTRUCTION SYLLABUS)
  EDUCATION (BRITISH EMPIRE INSTRUCTION SYLLABUS)
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Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.
The Marquess of Linlithgow—Took the Oath.

ANGLESEY COUNTY COUNCIL (WATER, &c.) BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.
CHESTERFIELD AND BOLSOVER WATER BILL.
Read 2a, and committed: the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

AGRICULTURE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the Commons Message of yesterday.
THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC WARFARE (THE EARL OF SELBORNE): My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Duke of Norfolk, I beg to move the Motion standing on the Order Paper in his name.
Moved, That a Committee of five Lords be appointed to join with the Committee of the House of Commons to consider the said Bill as mentioned in the said Message, and that the Lords following be named of the Committee:—

E. Carlisle,

V. Buckmaster,

L. Luke,

L. Southwood,

L. Hemingford.

—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Ordered, That such Committee have power to agree with the Committee of the Commons in the appointment of a Chairman.
Then a Message was ordered to be sent to the Commons to inform them of the appointment of the said Committee by this House.

EDUCATION BILL.
House again in Committee (for the sixth day):
[The LORD STANMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 93:
Powers of Minister in default of local education authorities or managers or governors.
(2) Where the performance of any duty imposed by or for the purposes of this Act on a local education authority or on the managers or governors of any county school or auxiliary school is thereby made contingent upon the opinion of the authority or of the managers or governors, the Minister may nevertheless require the authority managers or governors to perform that duty if in his opinion the circumstances are such as to require the performance thereof.
LORD RANKEILLOUR LORD RANKEILLOUR moved to leave out subsection (2). The noble Lord said: In moving the deletion of this subsection, may I say that I do it on general grounds and not in the interests of any particular body? This clause has been alluded to in a discussion on another Amendment, and it was there treated as an appeal clause, but I submit it is not an appeal clause at all. It gives no new right of appeal—no formal right of appeal for one thing—and, if there are informal representations, it does not give the slightest security that they will be considered. This clause is a monstrosity. It was my duty for a number of years to scrutinize practically all the clauses in Public Bills in another place, and with the exception of clauses in Defence of the Realm Acts, where it is excusable, I have never seen anything worse.
Just consider, my Lords. This is a balanced Bill. Over and over again in argument we have been told that this is a carefully balanced measure giving various rights and duties to different classes of people—local authorities, minor local authorities, managers and governors of schools, and so on. It has been a difficult Bill for those concerned to grasp the significance of, but after study and following the debates people do know more or less what appear to be their statutory rights. But these rights do not exist at all in practice They may be

541
entirely set aside under this Bill. If the Minister does not approve of the line taken by either local authorities or managers, he may set them aside and do what he pleases about it. I really do not know where to find a parallel unless it be in Herr Hitler's circular to the Judiciary of Germany, wherein he told them that in their findings they were to consider solely the interests of the State and not pay any attention to the words of the existing law. This appears to be on very much the same lines.
I expect that the noble Earl in charge of the Bill, or the noble and learned Lord Chancellor, will say, "You must have some security against unreasonable conduct on the part of local authorities or managers." If that be so, surely it could be found. Many Acts of Parliament use expressions like "any unreasonable exercise of this right or power," or "any unreasonable use of this section," shall have a remedy provided for it, and it may be that something of that sort is required. I suggest that if that be really necessary it can be found in Clause 104. Clause 104 gives powers to make orders or give directions, and I think if it be really necessary to have anything of the kind an order might be made under that clause, but subject always to this, that a set order is liable to be rejected—I do not say to be confirmed, but liable to be rejected by Parliament in the same way as the Regulation is. I cannot understand how this came in. I imagine it must have been per incuriam, but anyhow I submit that the words as they stand ought not to appear in any Act of Parliament short of a Defence of the Realm Act. I therefore beg to move it be deleted.
Amendment moved—
Page 68, line 1, leave out subsection (2).—(Lord Rankeillour.)
LORD SOULBLTRY: I should like very briefly to reinforce the argument of my noble friend Lord Rankeillour. He said that he was not quite sure how this section had arisen and suggested it was per incuriam. It appears to have been the result of a Government Amendment in another place, a species of afterthought or, in the words once used by Lord Randolph Churchill, "an inspiration but
542
not from above." In moving it, the President of the Board said:
"I think it would be wise to have this power so that the Minister may in fact override an authority or body of managers if his opinion is contrary to theirs."
It was pointed out to him in debate that its terms were very sweeping and he went on to say that he required them in the case of the dismissal of a teacher by a body of managers on grounds that might cause dissatisfaction; that was to say, a disputed case that depended upon the opinions of the managers. He said this might seem a large power but it had to be put in the Bill in order to have an overriding opinion in doubtful cases.
As Lord Rankeillour pointed out, this is an all-embracing power. It is perfectly true that it does include the dismissal of teachers. On that point I think the President of the Board may be asking for trouble, because amongst the duties imposed for the purposes of this is, of course, the dismissal of a teacher. Hitherto the President of the Board of Education has not had the right to dismiss a teacher or indeed to prevent his dismissal. I personally think it is very dangerous and would be very embarrassing for him to obtain that right. In short it seems to me there is very little that has to be done under this Bill that will not fall within the powers of the Minister under this sub-section. It enables him, as it were, to draw up all the fish in the sea at one cast of his net and so secure the particular species he desires without any regard to the fact that the whole genus would be trapped.
The local authorities are old-established and very valued organs of democratic government but, if I understand this section aright, almost every duty of a local education authority under the Bill can be prescribed or reversed by the Minister of Education. There really is not a very great deal of local democracy left. The relationship between the local education authorities and the Board of Education used to be, and still is, a relationship or partnership, with the Board no doubt the senior partner. But the junior partner in this case would be practically a cypher and rather something in the nature of an apprentice. I suggest that the Government should think again in regard to this subsection and do what they can to preserve, as far as it ought

543
to be preserved, a reasonable amount of autonomy to the local education authority. As this clause stands it seems to me the autonomy of the local authority is very gravely impaired.
LORD ROCHE: Unless the noble Earl is going to accept the Amendment, perhaps I had better say what I have to say in respect of this matter from a legal point of view before he replies. I am not going to repeat the arguments that have been so well advanced by noble Lords beside me but I am going to look at the matter from a legal point of view. I think one wants to look first at subsection (1) of Clause 93. That deals with the cases where a local education authority, or managers, or governors have an absolute duty, and goes on to provide that if they do not perform it the remedy is by mandamus. In another place there was a considerable discussion of the matter. The President of the Board said he desired to give a resort to the courts in such a serious matter as overriding the action of a local authority and so he provided for it.
Then comes subsection (2). I cannot help thinking that the legal advisers of the President may have had some other reasons besides those mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Soulbury. I think they may have said to him: "Well, what about going by mandamus in a case where there is no absolute duty but a duty which is contingent upon the discretion of the local authorities or the governors?" Although I have not had any opportunity to look at books, I think it is correct to say that in such a case the court, with a motion for a writ of mandamus before it, might say: "We cannot enforce this; it is contingent upon the discretion of the authority; let the Minister override." Just see where that brings us to. Where Parliament has laid down an absolute duty you have to go to the courts. Where it has added a discretionary power in governors or local authorities, the Minister, by his mere fiat, may do it.
I do not think the noble Lord beside me used language that was too strong. I doubt whether this has been thought out or if this was really intended. That is why I urge that it should be more seriously looked into again to see whether it meets what is required and what was thought of—namely, that if the discretion has really not been exercised (that is, the
544
test in the courts) or has been perversely, or as we say injudicially exercised, then the President may intervene. He could then use his discretion and leave it to the court. He could turn the contingent duty into an absolute duty and then the local authority or the governors would be in default of an absolute duty. Then it could be left to the court. That would be a fair, and as far as I know, a satisfactory provision, but to treat a discretionary duty as more liable to be roughly overruled by the whim of a dictator than an absolute duty is really something I think that this House should not allow. If it is persisted in I think this clause should be deleted and the Government should be set to make a better clause.
There is another matter already mentioned by my noble friend Lord Rankeillour that requires consideration. It is the question whether this clause provides a right of appeal. In the case of Clause 21 certain right reverend Prelates—I think both the Lord Bishop of Truro and the Lord Bishop of Wakefield—had Amendments concerning the use of premises of controlled schools. The schools, of course, are the property of the managers. They were concerned to see that in the division of use between the local authority and the managers there should not be unreasonable action by the local authority and that there should be a right of appeal not to the court but to the Minister. The noble Earl, advised no doubt by somebody, declared with some satisfaction that that right of appeal was to be found in subsection (2) of this clause. The simple answer is that it is not. I speak with diffidence because the Lord Chancellor may have something to say about this, but I do not think any lawyer could say that subsection (2) deals with anything but what lawyers call nonfeasance. It does not deal at all with cases where somebody has done something wrong. We do need some right of appeal where persons are aggrieved by the action of this authority or the other. I submit that these points deserve further consideration.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: I only wish to say that I quite agree with the speech which has just been delivered.
LORD AMMON: I would ask the noble Earl to reconsider this. I had already thought it somewhat authoritarian but after hearing the weighty speech of the

545
noble and learned Lord, Lord Roche. I look at it with great alarm. Some of us have been concerned about the gradual whittling down of the authority of local bodies, but it now seems that there may be overriding even of the authority of the courts.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): I have been asked by my noble friend Lord Selborne to say a few words about this matter. I most sincerely and whole-heartedly agree that the point raised, and particularly the way in which it has been developed by my noble and learned friend Lord Roche, is really important. His suggestion that it should be considered afresh may very likely be right, but I do not want it to be assumed that the view of this matter is all one way. I think it is possible to illustrate from the Bill instances in which this intervention by the Minster may be justified. The Minister is not an autocrat. He is responsible to Parliament, and it is a question of important policy whether there may not be a point at which he ought in the discharge of his duty defined in the Bill to intervene. It really is not very useful in a Bill so complicated as this to deal with a clause in completely general terms. One has to see the sort of instance in which this matter might arise.
I will take one case in which my noble friend Lord Rankeillour will be interested. If your Lordships turn back and look at Clause 31 (2) you will see that it provides that
"The arrangements made by a local education authority for the special education treatment of pupils of any such category shall, so far as is practicable, provide for the education of pupils in whose case a disability is serious in special schools appropriate for that category …"
There is also provision in another clause where the requirement made is that children for whom special arrangements are made should be put together with other children of similar faith. That I think is in Clause 48. That is the sort of instance I have in mind. As my noble and learned friend Lord Roche said, you cannot get a mandamus to compel a local education authority to do something which it is not the local education authority's absolute obligation to do. You might get a mandamus directing it to consider a matter if it had not considered it, but if instead of being charged with an absolute duty they are left to do something as
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far as is practicable or as far as in their judgment it is practicable you must face this situation. No doubt there are great local education authorities, such as were probably in the mind of my noble friend Lord Ammon, who are to be completely trusted, but we have also to provide for the case of small authorities all over the country. If a local education authority on quite inadequate grounds said a proposal was impracticable and that as they were not compelled to do a certain thing they were not going to do it, then I think there might be a case in which it was right for the Minister responsible for education to intervene and say: "I have had the whole matter looked into and I must insist that this is a case where you can quite clearly do what you have refused to do." Either you must agree to that or you must say that, whenever a local education authority is not compelled by mandatory words to do a thing but is given authority to do it, the local authority—which I think perhaps it is not improper to suggest might occasionally be composed of people not of the most impartial temperament—must have its will, although it is quite contrary to the needs of the case and the proper promotion of education in that part of the country.
I agree it is an unusual provision and I do not know that I am prepared to challenge my noble friend Lord Rankeillour in his statement that it has never appeared in this form before. But that is no reason why it should not be put in and I have rather more sympathy with it than some who have criticized it to-day. It appears to me that when you have a great Department of State which deals with the education of the children of the country and does it largely through the instrument of local education authorities, which in some cases may be not very skilled, there is nothing unreasonable in saying that there may be cases in which it is right that the Minister should intervene and say: "It is true you have an option but you have exercised it unreasonably, with so little regard to this or that legitimate interest, that I must in these circumstances require you to do it." If there had been a provision that the local authority should have discretion but that when the Minister considered the discretion had been exercised unreasonably he might order it to be done, I do not think anybody would have objected. Whether as drafted here it is

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right or wrong, I do not think it is so unreasonable a thing as it appears at first sight to some people.
On the other hand, I have the authority of my noble friend who is responsible for the Bill to say that whether or not these criticisms are valid he will look into the matter again. I would strongly urge your Lordships that we should not strike out of the Bill an important provision which I am sure was put in for reasons not altogether without weight, but that there should be an examination of the matter further so that it can be dealt with if necessary on the Report stage.
EARL STANHOPE: Surely, as I think my noble and learned friend agrees, this clause is obviously faulty. The right thing to do, I suggest, is to leave the subsection out, and give the Government an opportunity before the next stage of putting in a clause which meets the point raised by my noble and learned friend. I hardly think it is necessary to remind them that although this says "the Minister" of course it is not, in many cases, going to be the Minister, it is going to be some officer at the Board of Education. Many of the officers of the Board of Education are my friends, I hope, and I have a great admiration for them, but not all of them are always wise. Not all the officials of every Ministry are always wise. This is a power which you are going to give in perpetuity, or at any rate until this Bill is changed by some subsequent Act. I suggest that the right thing to do is to leave out the subsection to enable the Government to put in something else at the next stage.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am not sure that that would be a very convenient course to adopt. It is not one that has been pursued hitherto. I should like to put before my noble friend Lord Rankeillour, in addition to the cases which have been cited by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor, another case in which I suggest something of this sort will be necessary. If he will turn to Clause 48 (2) he will see that it deals with the provision of board and lodgings otherwise than at boarding schools, and it is there provided that the local education authority may board children out at approved homes in order that they may receive education. It says in subsection (2):
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"In making any arrangements under this section for any child or young person a local education authority shall, so far as practicable give effect to the wishes of the parents of the child or to the wishes of the young person, as the case may be, with respect to the religious denomination of the person with whom he will reside."
That is a matter to which, I know, the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England attach very great importance because it is very desirable that children who come from a religious home should be boarded out in a religious home. But it is conceivable that you might get a local authority which took a very narrow view, and took the line—which the Bill enables them to take—that, in particular circumstances, this was not practicable. You could not, as the noble and learned Lord Chancellor has shown, proceed by mandamus against the local authority in a case like that. It would surely be reasonable that there should be an appeal to the Minister, because, of course, it is admitted that the exercise of these powers by the Minister would be a very grave step for him to take, and he would have to defend himself in Parliament.
Surely that is a great safeguard in providing that the Minister may override a local authority. Having done so, the Minister has to justify himself before the House of Commons or your Lordships. That, I think, is a point that my noble friend should weigh. The problem arises because you have got a great many authorities, a great many governors and a great many managers in the country, all of whom have numerous decisions of discretion to take under this Bill. Are you sure that they will always be wise, always be reasonable? Are you sure that the Minister never ought to have the power to override? We can be quite certain that if the Minister did override any local authority he would have to justify his conduct in Parliament. Therefore I suggest to my noble friend that there is a strong case for something of this sort. As the noble and learned Lord Chancellor has said, in view of the criticisms that have been made it may well be that these words require modification. But I think it would be a mistake to leave this subsection out of the Bill, because the question of Amendment could be dealt with on the Report stage.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: Neither I not any of the speakers who have supported

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me deny that local authorities or managers or governors may act perversely, and may need to be corrected, but what we do say is that they ought not to be corrected by such an extraordinary omnibus clause as this. My noble and learned friend Lord Roche has suggested one modification. I, personally, with diffidence, have suggested another. But with regard to what the noble Earl has just said I must really suggest to him that the mere remedy of attacking a Minister in Committee of Supply is not enough. What you want is some definite power of Parliament to override his acts, just as he may require some definite power to override the acts of local authorities. The noble Earl has had plenty of experience of another place, and he must know how very difficult it is, unless you have something like procedure by prayer, really to bring a Minister to book. When education estimates come on one particular matter is simply snowed under by others so that you cannot get a definite decision ad hoc. If a Minister is to have such extraordinary powers he ought to be allowed only to exercise them subject the discretion of Parliament or of a court, I do not care which. But I do suggest that these words ought to go out, and I am certain we shall not be unreasonable in meeting the noble Earl on the Report stage if he thinks that some revision is requred.
LORD SOULRURY: There is a point upon which I am not quite clear, and I should be very grateful if the noble Lord can assist me in clearing it up. What will be the position of the Minister under this clause in regard to the appointment and dismissal of teachers? As I understand it, if a local authority, or a body of governors or managers, dismisses a teacher and the President of the Board of Education disagrees he can reinstate the teacher. Similarly, I assume that if a local authority or body appoints a teacher and the President disagrees he can cancel the appointment. I should very much like to know if that is so. If it is so, it is an immense departure from the previous procedure of the Board of Education. The local education authority has been the employer of teachers for years, and that has always been their relationship. I should be somewhat anxious as to the future relations generally of teachers and the President of the Board of Education if my interpretation of this section were correct. Perhaps the noble
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Earl will let me know precisely how he reads it.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I do not think that my noble friend Lord Soulbury is correct, but, if the Minister found it necessary to take such an unprecedented step as my noble friend visualizes, he would have to justify himself before Parliament, and not merely in the fashion Lord Rankeillour suggests. At once there would be questions in Parliament. It is no good saying that questions in Parliament have no effect on Ministers or on Ministries; those of us who have experience inside a Ministry know very well that the limelight of Parliamentary questions is a very powerful instrument. In a free country we have to take account not only of what happens in the Chamber but of the discussion of the matter in the Press up and down the country. As experienced politicians, therefore, we can surely say that no Minister would exercise this power unless he had a really good case, because otherwise he would be getting himself into very severe trouble. I think that my noble friend Lord Rankeillour has not attached nearly enough importance to what I may describe as the searchlight of Parliament and to what can be done by Parliamentary questions or by moving the adjournment of the House, which, as the noble Lord knows better than anyone, can always be done.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: No.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: If it is a matter of urgent public importance. The matter can always be raised on the adjournment.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: For half an hour.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: And it can be raised every night on the adjournment; I have known matters raised time and again. I am sure that my noble friend will agree that these things do exercise a very great influence on the action of Ministers, and if a Minister had a bad case he would, be in an uncomfortable position. I suggest, therefore, that this power will not be exercised unless the Minister has very good reason to exercise it. I hope that my noble friend will not press for this subsection to be deleted at this stage, but will agree that the Government should consider the criticisms which have been made by noble Lords,

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and that on the Report stage we should see whether words cannot be inserted which would allay the fears which have been expressed.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT CRANBORNE) (Lord Cecil): I should like to make a small intervention on a technical question before noble Lords decide to go to a Division. I would remind the Committee of the terms of Standing Order XXXIII of this House:
"If, on a Division upon any stage of a Bill it shall appear that thirty Lords are not present in the House, the Lord Speaker shall declare the question not decided, but the debate thereon adjourned to the next sitting of the House; and if such Division takes place when the House is in Committee, the Chairman shall declare the question not decided, whereupon the House shall resume, and shall be again in Committee at the next sitting of the House."
If your Lordships decide to press this matter to a Division—I do not say that on behalf of the Government I wish to dissuade you—all that can happen is that the Committee must adjourn, and further discussion will have to be adjourned until the next sitting next week. Noble Lords will have in mind the great embarrassment under which this would put all of us, and will therefore, I hope, agree with the proposal that this matter should be considered on the Report stage. I do not wish to discourage the Committee from coming to a decision.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: As there is this division of opinion, His Majesty's Government would agree to leave out this subsection at this stage of the Bill, on the understanding that on the Report stage we must have a subsection which really does deal with the problem. My noble friend will recognize that this is not a matter which can be dealt with by mandamus. It is not a question of enforcing an order but of providing that where a local authority or body of managers acts in an unreasonable manner there shall be some effective method of providing that the matter is reviewed. If that is understood, I think that in the circumstances it would be better to leave out this subsection.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: I thank the noble Earl very sincerely for meeting us on this point. I am sure that we shall greet his new draft with sympathy, and I hope with approval.
LORD ROCHE: I should like to ask two questions. The noble Earl has met the Committee very generously. Would he consider the point of the appeal which I mentioned, and which he said arose under Clause 21, and the desirability of having a real appeal section? I should like an assurance that that will be considered in conjunction with the matters which will have to be considered under this clause. Secondly, as the noble Earl knows, I made a suggestion some time ago with regard to mandamus, as to whether that was quite the best remedy and whether it would not be better to have a resort to a single Judge appointed by the Lord Chancellor, for which there is ample precedent. I have not put any Amendment down, because the noble Earl communicated with the President of the Board of Education on that point, and the President asked me to see him and discuss the matter; but unfortunately he fell off a ladder, and the discussion has never taken place. I should like to ask the noble Earl whether that matter can be considered. I think he knows the point; if not, I can send him another copy of the letter, and perhaps the noble and learned Lord Chancellor would assist him.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Both those suggestions will be considered. With regard to the last suggestion of my noble friend, I well remember the point about which he spoke and wrote to me, and which I laid before the President of the Board of Education. I was fully expecting my noble friend to move an Amendment at this Committee stage on that point.
LORD ROCHE: I thought that it might be rather lacking in courtesy to do so.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 93, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 94:
Grants in aid of educational services.
(3) Any regulations made by the Minister or the Minister of Health under this section may make provision whereby the making of payments by him in pursuance thereof is dependent upon the fulfilment of such conditions as may be determined by or in accordance with the regulations, and may also make provision for requiring local education authorities and other persons to whom payments have been made in pursuance thereof to comply with such requirements as may be so determined.
(4) Where the Minister is satisfied that the persons responsible for the management of any school or other educational institution are, by reason of the provisions of any trust deed or other instilment relating to the management of the school or institution, unable to fulfil any condition or comply with any requirement imposed by regulations made under this section he may by order make such modifications of the said provisions as may be necessary for the purpose of enabling them to fulfil that condition or comply with that requirement; and any such trust deed or other instrument shall, during such period as may be specified in the order, have effect subject to any modifications so made.
LORD RANKEILLOUR LORD RANKEILLOUR moved to leave out subsection (3). The noble Lord said: I move the deletion of this subsection in a spirit of inquiry rather than of hostility. I should be glad to know what is contemplated under this clause. Subsection (3) says:
"Any regulations made by the Minister or the Minister of Health under this section.."
What is it expected that the Minister or the Minister of Health would be likely to put out as the conditions? On the face of it I do not quite see the necessity of it. Turning back to Clause 14, it is quite clear that the persons who wish to have one of their schools maintained will have to satisfy the Minister as to the type of premises and so on. That, of course, is well understood, and, though many people are very much afraid of the cost involved, they would try to meet it. But, when that is done, are entirely new conditions to be proclaimed by one Minister or the other, and, if so, why? Of course, a great part of the earlier provisions of the Bill will not come into operation for some considerable time, and the present President may not be there when they do. It is difficult to understand why it is necessary to have such a very general provision when the matter seems to have been pro vided for earlier. In order to elicit some statement on the subject, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 69, line 26, leave out subsection (3).—(Lord Rankeillour.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am not quite sure that I appreciate the reasons of my noble friend but perhaps it would help him if I said that this subsection (3) merely reproduces in slightly different words Section 118 of the Act of 1921. That is to say, in making the grants that
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the Minister makes under our education system to local authorities and to managers he can specify certain conditions that have to be fulfilled. That has always been the law. These conditions will be embodied in regulations and those regulations will have to be laid before Parliament under Clause 105, so that Parliament can be satisfied that the regulations are not unreasonable. No departure from previous practice is intended by these words; they merely embody what has always been the law.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: I do not press the matter.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
EARL STANHOPE EARL STANHOPE moved, in subsection (4), after "may," where that word first occurs, to insert "subject to the consent of such persons." The noble Earl said: Here again is a subsection which seems to me of a very extraordinary character and much of the same character as that of the subsection which we have been discussing earlier. Your Lordships will see, if you look at this clause, that the Minister may make any kind of regulation he likes, and then if he finds that the trust deed blocks his action in the matter, without any consultation with the trustees of that deed or with the managers or anybody concerned he can tear it up and abolish it. Did anybody ever hear of such a provision in a public Act of Parliament? It is the kind of thing you expect in a bureaucracy and the kind of thing we are accustomed to in time of war, but when we have won this war one thing that many of us want to do is to get rid of bureaucracy—certainly I do and I think many of your Lordships do as well. Therefore to put in a provision of this kind seems to me a most extraordinary thing. I suggest that we should put the matter right by saying that before the Minister can alter or tear up a trust deed he should get the consent of those who are responsible for seeing that its provisions are fulfilled. That seems to be logical, fair and right. I hope therefore that my noble friend will at once agree that this is a matter which has been overlooked and should not be put into the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 69, line 39, after ("may") insert ("subject to the consent of such persons").—(Earl Stanhope.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I think I can meet the noble Earl but possibly not exactly in the way which he has proposed. Subsection (4) says:
"Where the Minister is satisfied that the persons responsible for the management of any school or other educational institution are, by reason of the provisions of any trust deed or other instrument relating to the management of the school or institution, unable to fulfil any condition or comply with any requirement imposed by regulations made under this section he may by order make such modifications of the said provisions …."
Let us just visualize the circumstances under which this problem would arise. The managers would be applying for a grant. Under the clause we have just been discussing the Minister will have laid down the conditions under which that grant will be receivable. Those conditions will have been approved by Parliament. The managers of this particular school find that their trust deeds prevent them from fulfilling those conditions that Parliament has approved. Therefore the Minister is given power to alter the trust deeds. I agree with my noble friend that the managers certainly ought to be consulted as to the extent to which and the way in which the trust deeds should be modified. Perhaps he would consent to move his Amendment in a different form so that the subsection would read that, where the managers under the trust deeds are unable to
"comply with any requirement imposed by regulations made under this section, he"—
that is, the Minister—
"may after consultation with them"—
that is, the managers—
"by order make such modifications of the said provisions as may be necessary…"
I think that would put it in a better way than that which my noble friend proposes.
My noble friend's words would mean that the Minister would have to accept the exact wording of the alteration that the managers preferred. When the situation is that the Minister is making a grant that the managers wish to receive, I do not think it is quite fair to put the Minister in that position. The Minister should be obliged to consult the managers, and the managers should have the opportunity of making representations and of saying how they think the trust deed ought to be altered; but I think in this case it is only reasonable to let the Minister have the last word, because after all the managers are
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coming to him and asking for a grant. I would remind your Lordships that similar provisions occur in the Act of 1921—I think in Sections 121 and 35. Both those sections enable trust deeds to be altered where such alteration is necessary in order to qualify for the Government grant.
EARL STANHOPE: I agree with my noble friend to some extent. There must, of course, be a power to alter trust deeds, but I am not quite happy about saying that they shall be altered only after consultation, because that means that the Minister can override the trustees who are responsible for seeing that the trust is carried out. Of course the Minister always has the whip hand in this matter and the last word, because if managers are unreasonable all he has to do is to refuse to pay the grant. Therefore he can always get them into line if they are unreasonable. But what I am thinking about is that some official, perhaps in some quite small school, will override a trust deed and tear it up, and the Minister will hear nothing whatever about it until it has been done. Then it comes before Parliament and the Minister has, of course, to support his Department. Ministers have to do that very often, not always with a very clear conscience in the matter but naturally they have to do it. We want to avoid that. I think it is wrong from the departmental point of view and wrong from the national point of view. Therefore I suggest that the Minister should get the consent of those responsible for the trust deed first and then, if necessary, withhold the grant. It is not the same thing to consult them and then do nothing more.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I do not think there is any danger of the trust deeds being altered without the Minister hearing anything about it because the managers, finding themselves at variance with the Minister on this point, would at once appeal to their Member of Parliament, who would ask a question, and the matter would be brought to the Minister's notice. That is a constant experience of Members of Parliament. When a local authority are at variance with a Government Department the first thing they do is to appeal to their Parliamentary representative, who either introduces a deputation, or asks a question, or writes a letter to the Minister. As my noble friend has admitted, the

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Minister has the whip hand. It is a question of the terms on which public money should be paid over to the managers, and I think, if we put in the Bill that the Minister is bound to consult the managers, we are going as far as previous Acts have gone. Therefore I hope that my noble friend will consent to move his Amendment in the form I have suggested, and I would then accept it at once.
EARL STANHOPE: If the noble Earl will not accept my words I am afraid I must accept his, but I think that on the whole I am right and he is not.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: The form in which I propose to put the Amendment therefore is as follows: Page 69, line 39, after ("may") insert ("after consultation with them ").
Amendment moved—
Page 69, line 39, after ("may") insert ("after consultation with them").—(Earl Stanhope.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 94, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 95 [Special financial provisions relating to Wales and Monmouthshire]:
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: The next Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 70, line 6, leave out ("this Part") and insert ("Part II").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 95, as amended, agreed to.
Committee adjourned during pleasure.
Committee resumed.
Clause 96:
Maintenance contributions payable by the Minister in respect of aided schools and special agreement schools.
96. The Minister shall pay to the managers or governors of every aided school and of every special agreement school maintenance contributions equal to one half of any sums expended by them in carrying out their obligations under paragraph (a) of subsection (3) of Section fourteen of this Act:
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved to insert, after this Act," "in respect of alterations to the school buildings and repairs to the school premises." The noble Earl said: Clause 96 provides for
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the payment by the Minister to the managers or governors of every aided school and of every special agreement school maintenance contributions of the amount therein specified. The contributions are payable towards the expenses of managers or governors in maintaining their schools. It was never intended that the Minister's maintenance contributions should be directed to any expenditure on the establishment of any such school. As the clause is at present drafted it extends to any sums spent by the managers or governors in carrying out their obligations under Clause 14 (3) (a), and this Amendment is really necessitated by an Amendment which was made in another place to Clause 14. In order that there should he no doubt that an authority's maintenance of any such school should not extend to the assistance of expenses of establishing the schools, Clause 14 was amended to exclude such expenses from the responsibility of the authorities. This Amendment, therefore, is in fact mainly drafting and consequential on the previous Amendment made to Clause 14.
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 12, at end insert ("in respect of alterations to the school buildings and repairs to the school premises.")—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 96, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 97 [Power of the Minister to make grants in respect of aided schools and special agreement schools transferred to new sites or established in substitution for former schools]:
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: In Clause 15 we made Amendments to increase the elasticity of the Bill so as to enable more than one school to be provided in substitution of a previous school. This Amendment is consequential on that.
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 20, leave out from ("school") to ("is") in line 22 and insert ("or schools proposed to be established shall be established in substitution for a school or schools to be discontinued, then, if the school to be transferred or any school to be established in pursuance of the order").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: The next is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 46, leave out from ("exceeding") to the end of line 30 and insert ("one half thereof").—(The Earl of Selborne).
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: This is also drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 41, leave out from ("any") to ("take") in line 42 and insert ("such grant").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 97, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 98 [Power of the Minister to make grants in respect of aided schools and special agreement schools established for the accommodation of displaced pupils]:
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: The two Amendments to this clause are of a drafting character which clarify, without altering, the intention of the definition of "displaced pupils". The subsection as amended will read:
"The expression 'displaced pupils' means, in relation to any such proposed school as aforesaid, pupils for whom education would in the opinion of the Minister, have been provided in some other aided school or special agreement school if that school had not ceased to be available for them in consequence of its having ceased to be used for providing both primary and secondary education or in consequence of a substantial reduction in the number of pupils for whom education is to be provided in it."
I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 72, line 26, leave out from ("of") to ("its") in line 28.
Page 72, line 29, after ("education") insert ("or in consequence of a substantial reduction in the number of pupils for whom education is to be provided in it").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 98, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 99 [Power of Minister to make loans to aided schools and special agreement schools in respect of initial expenditure]:
THE EARL OF PERTH THE EARL OF PERTH moved to insert at the end of subsection (1):
"Provided that such terms and conditions shall be not less favourable to the borrowers than those obtaining under any Local Loans Act for the time being in force."
The noble Earl said: My noble friend Lord Rankeillour has asked me to move this Amendment on his behalf. It flows
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from the statement made by the President of the Board of Education on the Committee stage of this Bill in another place. The President then said:
"The local authorities are permitted to borrow on certain terms, and I do not see why a poor local authority should obtain certain business terms under the Local Loans Act and denominations should be unable to obtain similar terms. I came to the conclusion, and my colleagues agree with me, that the most equitable manner in which to work this scheme would be to place the denominations on the same sort of basis as the local authorities in the matter of raising money."
This Amendment really renders that assimilation proposed by the President of the Board of Education closer than it is at present in the Bill.
There is another and further reason why these words should he inserted. Your Lordships will see that the consent of the Treasury has to be obtained to the terms and conditions of the loan. I have a very great admiration for the Treasury as the watchdogs of national finance, but it is just possible that in their zeal to secure advantages to the national finance they might say, "Well, in this case we propose to charge the managers or governors of a particular school a higher rate of interest than a local authority is charged," and there will be nothing to prohibit them from doing so. It would be wise, in my view, to remove that temptation from the Lords of the Treasury and to insert the words which are suggested. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 72, line 43, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Earl of Perth.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I can give the noble Earl an unqualified assurance that the pledge given by the President of the Board of Education in another place will be carried out in the spirit as well as the letter. I am advised that this Amendment simply would not work because it is not appropriate to the machinery of local loans. The Treasury operates, as the noble Earl is aware, under the Public Works Loans Act, and under that procedure the Treasury is empowered to fix the rate of interest from time to time having regard not only to monetary conditions but also to the duration of the loans. Each application for a local loan is considered on its merits and the same will be the case, under Clause 99, with loans to the denominations. Every case

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will have to be considered on its merits, and the terms will be fixed by the Treasury. The Treasury will deal with the matter in exactly the same spirit as a public trustee, without any bias, as it does in the case of local authorities. I hope, therefore, my noble friend will not press his. Amendment because I am advised it would be quite unnecessary and inappropriate.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: This particular Amendment may be inapplicable, but surely you do want some statement in the Bill to carry out the intentions of the present Minister. It was argued the other day that these loans would not be needed for a considerable time ahead, and that it would be a long time before the burden would be felt by those who borrowed and had to repay. Surely something ought to be said to implement that undertaking. After all there may be another Minister and another Chancellor of the Exchequer by the time the loan has to be made and surely it is not good enough merely to be able to refer to statements made in another place in debate or statements made privately when the conditions and persons concerned may be entirely changed. I hope the noble Earl will give attention to this point between now and Report.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I will certainly give attention to it, but I do not see how you can get any formula which would fit into the procedure of the Public Works Loans Act. If my noble friend can make a definite suggestion I should be very glad to consider it with him between now and Report bat I am definitely advised that this formula now suggested simply would not work.
THE EARL OF PERTH: In view of the assurance given by the noble Earl that he will consider the matter in conjunction with my noble friend, I withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 99 agreed to.
Clause 100:
Contributions between local education authorities.
100.—(1) Where a local education authority provide in any school maintained by the authority for the primary or secondary education of any child or young person who belongs to the area of some other local education authority, then if a claim therefor is made within the prescribed period, they
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shall subject as hereinafter provided be entitled to recover from that authority such contributions as may be determined by agreement between the authorities concerned, or in default of such agreement by the Minister, to be equal to the cost of providing for the education:
Provided that if in the case of any child or young person the Minister is satisfied that there was no sufficient reason why the education provided for him should net have been provided by the authority for the area to which he belongs the Minister may, on the application of that authority, direct that no contribution shall be recoverable in respect thereof under this subsection.
LORD RANKEILLOUR LORD RANKEILLOUR moved, in that part of subsection (1) which precedes the proviso, to leave out all words after "Where" down to the last "authority" and insert "any child or young person belonging to the area of any local education authority is receiving education in any school within the area of and maintained by some other local education authority or in any young people's college established by some other local education authority any such authority shall be entitled to recover from the first-mentioned authority."
The noble Lord said: The point of this is that in many cases the most convenient school, the most acceptable school, is in the area of another local authority. It may be merely a matter of where the boundary is or where some natural obstacle exists and it is easier for children to go outside their own area, but in a case like that, and there are many of them, one local authority is relieved to some degree at the expense of another and surely there ought to be some power of recouping which at present I understand is purely a matter of arrangement, with no obligatory power. I think the question, at any rate, is worth raising and I therefore move.
Amendment moved—
Page 73, line 33, leave out from ("Where") to ("such") in line 38 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Rankeillour).
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My noble friend is right in saying that the Bill contemplates arrangements between local authorities in respect of young persons living in the area of one authority who find it convenient to attend a college in the area of another authority. That is provided for by the Bill but, as my noble friend has said, on a voluntary or agreed basis. I think in a matter of this sort

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it will be a question of routine administration. There will be, for instance, so many pupils living in the area of authority A who, for their own reasons, wish to attend school in the area of authority B and vice versa. I do not think there is any reason to contemplate any need in the Bill of coercion by the President of the Board in order to come to agreement. It is contemplated that the authorities will deal with this as a matter of routine. Therefore the Amendment of my noble friend is really not necessary and I hope he will not press it.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: I see the difficulty and I do not press it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD AMMON LORD AMMON moved to add to subsection (2):
";and
(b) where immediately before the date of the commencement of Part II of this Act a former authority had been required under the Education (Institution Children) Act, 1923, to make payments to another former authority in respect of any child and was liable to make such payments, then, so long as the first-mentioned former authority would have remained so liable if that Act had not been repealed, the child shall be deemed to belong to the area of the local education authority responsible for the liabilities of the first-mentioned former authority."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment deals with children under the Institutions (Children) Act, 1923, who are the responsibility of a local authority and who, in some circumstances, have to be moved to an area of another authority from the authority to whom they formerly belonged. This provides that the latter authority shall continue to bear the expense. I had an Amendment down at an earlier stage which, on examination, I was advised would refer only to children who were in institutions, but there are some children whom local authorities board out and this Amendment is substituted for the former one. I do not think it needs much arguing. It is simply to make those who are responsible in the first instance continue to bear that responsibility.
Amendment moved—
Page 74, line 8, insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Ammon.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My noble friend is quite right. This Amendment does cover a small gap in the Bill and
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therefore I have great pleasure in accepting it and should like to thank the noble Lord for moving it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 100, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 101 and 102 agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved, after Clause 102, to insert the following new clause:
"Power of Minister to authorize local education authorities to provide temporary assistance for auxiliary schools.
. If upon representations made to him by any local education authority the Minister is satisfied that by reason of difficulties arising out of war conditions or out of conditions occasioned by the coming into operation of Part II of this Act temporary accommodation for children who are, or whose parents desire them to be, registered pupils at any auxiliary school is required until permanent accommodation can be provided for them by the managers or governors of the school in accordance with the development plan for the area, the Minister may authorize the local education authority to provide, or assist in providing, such temporary accommodation in accordance with arrangements approved by him, so, however, that any such authorization shall be withdrawn as soon as there has, in the opinion of the Minister, been sufficient opportunity for permanent accommodation for such pupils to be provided by the managers or governors of the school."
The noble Earl said: This clause gives power to the Minister to authorize education authorities to provide temporary assistance for auxiliary schools. This is intended to cover situations that will arise immediately this Bill becomes an Act. As the various stages come into force it may be quite impossible owing to the shortage of building labour and the like for the managers of an auxiliary school to make immediately the alterations they would ultimately be required to make under the Bill. Therefore there will be a period of hiatus and difficulty in which the expenses might well be considerable to any one school, and the Government propose to treat that period as altogether exceptional and to enable the entire cost of providing temporary additional accommodation for auxiliary schools to be met from public funds so long as this temporary period lasts. I hope, therefore, this clause will receive general consent.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 102, insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 103 agreed to.
Clause 104 [Revocation and variation of orders and directions]:
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: The Amendment in my name to this clause is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 75, line 46, leave out from ("given") to ("shall") in line 97 and insert ("there-under").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
LORD RANKEILLOUR: What is the difference between an Order and a Direction and in virtue of what Statute has the President the power to make this? Is it a recent Statute or an old one?
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I think I am right in saying that these orders are made under the 1921 Statute. If I am in error in that I will correct myself later. It is laid down that certain things are appropriate to orders, certain things appropriate to regulations, and certain things have to be done by direction. That is why Clause 104 provides for them. I think that the orders are provided for in the Act of 1921, and I believe I am right in saying that an order by the Board of Education is a very familiar instrument to all local authorities. But I will make further inquiries.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 104, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 105 [Regulations to be laid before Parliament]:
LORD RANKEILLOUR LORD RANKEILLOUR moved to insert:
"(2) No regulation in force in pursuance of this section shall be revocable save under the same conditions as those under which it acquired validity."
The noble Lord said: I am sorry to have to return to this matter of regulations, but I am afraid the position is still very obscure. I have had three opinions on this matter as to whether a regulation can or cannot be withdrawn without coming to Parliament to ask for withdrawal. In the first instance I was told that it was not necessary to come to Parliament; in the second instance I was told it was necessary; and in the third case I was told that it was not but not for the same reason as that first given. What exactly would happen if a regulation, say, for the teaching of British history from the patriotic standpoint should be made as proposed by my noble friend Lord Mottistone? Suppose Parliament
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consented to such a regulation, but the local authority took no notice of the regulation and the Minister took no action but remained quite passive in the matter. Could the court be appealed to? Could my noble friend Lord Mottistone by himself, or by asking some parent to make a test case of it, appeal to the court? If so, could the court issue a mandamus or not? It is by no means a simple matter, and I put the question with no thought of dogmatizing or putting forward my own opinion. I leave that to my legal friends. If a regulation can be allowed to drop without the consent of Parliament then all the assurances that my noble friend has given to my noble friend Lord Mottistone, for example, and to other noble Lords amount to very little. If a regulation can be just withdrawn or allowed to die and there is no remedy at law, the assurances do not come to much and the hopes founded on those assurances may be easily brought to naught.
Amendment moved—
Page 76, line 13, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Rankeillour.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I make no complaint of my noble friend raising this matter again because it is of great importance. The Amendment lie has put down deals with a most important point, but I think in his speech he dealt with a point equally important but somewhat different. If I understood him correctly he raised the question of what would happen if a local authority ignored a regulation.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: The argument would apply if the Minister withdrew it by order.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: There I think I can reassure my noble friend, but if he asks me what would happen if a local authority ignored the regulation made by the Minister then I think the answer is that it depends on the nature of the case and the nature of the regulation. That is a much wider point than the one covered by the Amendment. I think my noble friend put down his Amendment to clear up once and for all the question whether provisions made by the Minister by regulation can be altered by the Minister otherwise than by regulation. That matter is very important, because regulations have to be approved by both Houses of Parliament. I told the

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noble Lord last time he raised this question that a regulation would have to be revoked by another regulation, and that is the correct answer. He then asked me whether that was because of some particular Act or because it was the custom of Parliament. There I confess he stumped me, and I gave him the wrong answer when I said it was the custom of Parliament. It is the Interpretation Act of 1889 which establishes the sanction. Section 32 (3) of the Interpretation Act, 1889, provides that:
"Where an Act passed after the commencement of this Act confers a power to make any rules, regulations, or by-laws, the power shall, unless the contrary intention appears, be construed as including a power, exercisable in the like manner and subject to the like consent and conditions, if any, to rescind, revoke, amend, or vary the rules, regulations, or by-laws."
That means that power to vary or revoke or rescind a regulation must be exercised in the way and subject to the like consent and conditions that brought it into force. In this case the condition is the consent of both Houses of Parliament. That I hope will satisfy my noble friend's fears on the matter.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: That is quite satisfactory, but I still have a doubt how this can be enforced. The regulation will have the force of law, but could a private individual take action in case of default so as to secure that the purpose of the regulation would have to be carried out?
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I think the answer to that question must depend on the circumstances of the case. I would remind my noble friend that he took vigorous action this morning to try to curtail the power that the Government had taken in the Bill in order where necessary to compel a local authority who had decided to act one way to act in another way. That my noble friend strongly objected to, and he received so much support that the subsection was removed and we are going to bring up another. I do not think the problem of relations between the Minister and the local authorities is susceptible to any simple formula. The whole of our education system is based on co-operation between the Minister and local authorities. That system has been in force for some seventy years and I am not aware of any case where a regulation or order issued by
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the Minister has been defied by a local authority. If the noble Lord has any particular sort of case in mind and would be kind enough to give me notice I would apply my mind to it, but I do not think the question can be answered by a simple formula.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: It is not a question between the Minister and the local authority but whether a regulation has the force of law and could be enforced by any application to a court. That is what is still puzzling me, but perhaps I shall get enlightenment between now and the Report stage.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My noble friend must bear in mind that every local education authority is in receipt of grants from the Ministry, very important grants, and the Ministry may attach conditions to those grants. That is the lever that has been applied in the past to induce reasonableness on both sides.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: I will not press my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 105 agreed to.
Clause 106 agreed to.
Clause 107:
Interpretation.
107.—(1) In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them, that is to say:—
"Agreed syllabus" means an agreed syllabus of religious instruction prepared in accordance with the provisions of the Seventh Schedule to this Act and adopted or deemed to be adopted thereunder;
"Foundation managers" and "foundation governors" mean, in relation to any school, managers and governors appointed otherwise than by a local education authority or a minor authority in accordance with the provisions of the trust deed for the school; and unless the context otherwise re-requires, references in this Act to "managers" or "governors" shall, in relation to any function thereby conferred or imposed exclusively on foundation managers or foundation governors be construed as references to such managers or governors;
"Medical treatment" includes treatment by any duly qualified medical practitioner or by any person registered under the Dentists Act, 1878, but does not, in relation to any pupil other than a pupil receiving primary or secondary education otherwise than at school under arrangements made by a local education authority, include treatment in that pupil's home;
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON moved, in subsection (1) to leave out the definition of "Agreed syllabus" and insert:
"'Agreed syllabus' means, subject to the provisions of the Seventh Schedule to this Act, an agreed syllabus of religious instruction in accordance with the principles of the Christian faith prepared in accordance with that Schedule and adopted or deemed to be adopted thereunder."
The right reverend Prelate said: The right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Chichester asks me to move this Amendment on his behalf. The purpose of it is to introduce into the definition of an agreed syllabus a direct reference to the fact that an agreed syllabus is one of religious instruction in accordance with the principles of the Christian faith. This is a matter which has been discussed at earlier stages. It was discussed on the Second Reading and at an earlier point in Committee, and the most reverend Primate stated very fully the reasons which made it desirable to state explicitly in the Bill—what is in fact the intention—that religious instruction means instruction in the Christian faith. I do not think it is in the least necessary for me to cover that ground again or to try to restate the kind of reasons which make it desirable to have it explicitly in the Bill.
On the earlier occasions to which I have referred complete sympathy was expressed on behalf of the Government with this desire to get an express reference to the Christian faith into the Bill. But it was stated that the Government were aware of certain difficulties, chiefly, I think, of a legal kind, and that they would undertake to consider the matter further. I do not know at all whether the Government are inclined now to accept this Amendment of the right reverend Prelate. I think it is most desirable that it should be in the Bill and that it should have the effect of settling that particular point once and for all. But it may be that the Government, in the interval, has thought of some different place or of some particular form of words which would be more suitable, which would avoid legal difficulties and would satisfy the particular point. If the Government are in that position I should have no desire at all to press this Amendment and I really move it on behalf of the right reverend Prelate in the hope of hearing that the Government have got a solution of the problem.
Amendment proposed—
Page 76, leave out lines 21 to 24 and insert the said new definition.—(The Lord Bishop of London.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I hope that the right reverend Prelate will not press this Amendment. When the matter was previously raised I gave an undertaking that I would consult my right honourable friend between the Committee stage and the Report stage, to see if we could not find a form of words which would achieve the object which he and the most reverend Primate and, indeed, I think, all your Lordships very much desire without involving us in certain difficulties. I am advised that the words proposed by the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Chichester for insertion in the Seventh Schedule would create some fresh difficulties with which I need not trouble your Lordships but which appear to me certainly to have some substance. But the matter is under consideration. My right honourable friend is still in bed in the country and access to him is not easy. Therefore I hope that the right reverend Prelate will not press this Amendment. I should like to make it clear, however, that I think it should be understood that there is no sort of obligation on the part of the Government to amend the Bill in this particular way. Up to now we have always doubted if it was possible without incurring the difficulties to which I have alluded, and that may still be the case. I hope that the right reverend Prelate has not got the impression that I promised that we would find a form of words. That I was not able to do.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: I was very grateful for what the noble Earl said on this matter on an earlier occasion and I have already intimated that I shall not move the Amendment to this same clause standing in my name. Those of us who are concerned in this matter have again reason to be grateful to the noble Earl for what he has said to-day. Obviously neither he nor the Government can be pledged to propose a formula that will be free from serious objection. But there is a promise given that the matter will be further considered, and perhaps we will consider it ourselves to see if we can propose a form of words which looks hopeful. If we succeed no doubt we can propose that form of words later. We

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shall look forward hopefully, if not perhaps very confidently, to a suitable formula being produced by the Government.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: On behalf of the right reverend Prelate I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON had given Notice of two Amendments to the definition of "foundation managers" and "foundation governors," in subsection (1)—namely, to insert "auxiliary" after "any," and to leave out "in accordance with the provisions of the trust deed for the school" in order to insert "for the purpose of securing, so far as is practicable, that the character of the school as an auxiliary school is preserved and developed, and, in particular, that the school is conducted in accordance with the provisions of any trust deed relating thereto." The right reverend Prelate said: The first of my Amendments is purely drafting. No school except an auxiliary school can have foundation managers or foundation governors, therefore in line 43 that ought to be stated.
Amendment moved—
Page 76, line 43, after ("any") insert ("auxiliary").—(The Lord Bishop of London.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: The next Amendment contains a rather more substantial point. By the words which I propose to omit it is laid down that foundation managers and governors are managers and governors not appointed by a local authority or a minor authority, but, in the words I propose to omit, "in accordance with the provisions of the trust deed for the school." There are two objections to these words. First, they are not wholly accurate since, in fact, in Clause i6 of the Bill managers and governors are appointed by an order of the Minister. But more substantially as the words stand they are perhaps unduly restrictive. It is often the case that the existing composition of managers and governors in accordance with the trust deed is rather out of date and needs adjustment to new conditions. Since the time when the trust deed was drawn up such things as parochial church councils, diocesan, education committees and the like have come into existence, all of which might very well find place or representa-
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tion on the body of managers or governors. Therefore some departure from the provisions of the trust deed in such directions might be desirable. The words as they stand might be held to impede such a modification.
The essential thing is that the body of managers or governors shall continue in suitable form the original trust and where that is a denominational trust shall represent that denomination. The words I propose do secure the essential thing. The purpose of my Amendment is to secure, so far as is practicable, two things. The first is that the character of the school as an auxiliary school is preserved and developed, the second is that the school is conducted in accordance with the provisions of any trust deed relating thereto. The essential thing is to be preserved and at the same time there will be a sufficient degree of flexibility in the constitution of the board of managers and governors.
Amendment moved—
Page 76, line 45, leave out from ("authority") to ("and") on page 77, line 1, and insert ("for the purpose of securing, so far as is practicable, that the character of the school as an auxiliary school is preserved and developed, and, in particular, that the school is conducted in accordance with the provisions of any trust deed relating thereto.")—(The Lord Bishop of London.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I think the Amendment proposed by the right reverend Prelate really is necessary. As he pointed out, the words as they are at present are inelastic and do not cater in every case for the changed circumstances of the times in which we live. Therefore I am very much obliged to him for having brought forward this point and I have much pleasure in accepting this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD AMMON LORD AMMON moved, in subsection (1), to add to the definition of "medical treatment" the words "or at the private surgery of a duly qualified medical practitioner or registered dentist." The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to add these words to the definition so that a child can, if necessary, be taken to a local medical practitioner or, should the child be suffering from bad toothache, he can be taken to a nearby dentist, when it is not possible to attend at the place provided by the authority.
Amendment moved—
Page 78, line 11, at end insert the said new words.—(Lord Ammon.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I do not think that the Amendment would have the effect which my noble friend suggests. In a number of cases arrangements have been made by local education authorities, with the approval of the Minister, for various forms of treatment—dental, X-ray and so on—to be carried out at private surgeries. If these words were inserted I think that that would have to be discontinued. It should be noted that the authority would pay for treatment at private surgeries only where the arrangements have been approved by the Minister under Clause 74; authorities would have no duty or power to pay in cases where the parents took a child to a private surgery outside the scope of the approved arrangements.
LORD AMMON: I ask leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: I do not move the Amendment standing in my name.
Clause 107, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 108 agreed to.
Clause 109:
Saving as to person's of unsound wind, inmales of penal establishments, etc.
109. No power or duty conferred or imposed by this Act on the Minister, on local education authorities, or on parents, shall be construed as relating to any person who is the subject of an order or inquisition under the Lunacy and Mental Treatment Acts, 1890 to 1930 … or to any person who is detained in any penal establishment.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved to leave out "any penal establishment" and insert "pursuance of an order made by any court." The noble Earl said: Clause 109 is designed to exclude from the duty to educate children or young persons imposed by the Bill certain classes of person's who are either ineducable or are otherwise not fit subjects of such a requirement. Among these classes are the children or young persons who are educated in approved schools under the purview of the Home Secretary. It is obvious that persons detained in any approved school by order of any court must remain in that school, and not be subject to the requirements of this Bill. The words "detained in any penal establishment" are not the correct ones to describe persons detained in approved
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schools, and that is the reason for this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 81, line 36, leave out ("any penal establishment") and insert ("pursuance of an order made by any court.")—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 109, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 110 [Application to London]:
LORD AMMON LORD AMMON moved to insert after subsection (1):
"(2) Subsection (4) of Section fifty-two of this Act shall, in relation to the County of London, have effect as if for references therein to the council of a county district there were substituted references to a sanitary authority for the purposes of the Public Health (London) Act, 1936."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment harks back to Clause 52 of the Bill. The authorities mentioned in that clause do not operate under the same Act as operates in London. The Bill authorizes the local education authority in cleansing verminous people to use the apparatus of the county district councils in their area. In London there are no county district councils; their place is taken by sanitary authorities, and Section 124 of the Public Health (London) Act, 1936, requires every sanitary authority to provide facilities for cleansing verminous persons. This Amendment is simply moved to make this provision operative in London. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 81, line 43, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Ammon.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: What my noble friend says is quite correct, and I have much pleasure in accepting the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD AMMON: The Amendments which follow are all consequential.
Amendments moved—
Page 82, line 7, after ("eighty-four") insert ("eighty-seven").
Page 82, line 14, after ("sixty-five") insert ("two hundred and ninety").
Page 82, line 17, after ("one hundred and eight") insert ("one hundred and eighty-nine").—(Lord Ammon.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 110, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 111 and 112 agreed to.
Clause 113 [Amendment of enactments]:
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: These two Amendments are consequential on a previous Amendment, to which the Committee agreed, dealing with the compensation of displaced officers. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 83, line 31, at end insert ("and")
Page 83, line 32, leave out from ("ninety-one") to the end of line 33.—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 113, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
FIRST SCHEDULE.
LOCAL ADMINISTRATION.
PART I.
Joint Education Boards.
3. An order constituting a joint education board:
(c) may provide for securing that where in consequence of the establishment of the board as the local education authority for the area of any council any person who was an officer of that council suffers direct pecuniary loss by reason of the determination of his appointment or the diminution of his emoluments …
PART II.
Education Committees.
5. Every education committee of a local education authority shall include persons of experience in education and persons acquainted with the educational conditions prevailing in the area for which the committee acts.
PART III.
Delegation of functions of local education authorities to divisional executives.
8. Every scheme of divisional administration shall—
(g) make provision for the submission to the local education authority, by every divisional executive thereby authorized to exercise functions, of estimates of expenditure intended to be incurred by the executive on behalf of the authority and of accounts of expenditure so incurred; and for requiring such estimates and accounts to be subject to the approval of the authority.
Provided that no such scheme shall authorize any divisional executive to borrow money or to raise a rate.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved, in sub-paragraph (c) of paragraph 3 in Part I, after "council," to insert "immediately before the date on which the board became the local education authority for the area thereof." The noble Earl said: This is also consequential on what has been adopted with regard to the compensation of displaced officers. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 85, line 38, after ("council") insert the said new words.—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD RENNELL LORD RENNELL moved, in paragraph 5 of Part II, to leave out "persons" and insert "men and women." The noble Lord said: I should not have moved this Amendment, because it really follows on one which I moved to Clause 4 and withdrew, but for the fact that the assurance given by the noble and learned Lord Chancellor on June 20 did not go quite as far as I understood it at the time to go in saying that the word "persons" includes men and women. The Amendment which I now propose would make the inclusion of women mandatory whenever they have sufficient experience. The point seems to have a certain importance in view of the fact that the Bill does not provide for co-opted women, and under the old Act elected women are in many cases conspicuous for their absence on a number of education authorities.
Amendment moved—
Page 86, line 43, leave out ("persons") and insert ("men and women").—(Lord Rennell.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I should be very sorry if what I said when Lord Rennell moved an earlier Amendment to the same effect was not clearly expressed or in any way misled him. What I said was that there could be no doubt at all that the word "persons" in an Act of Parliament included both men and women. He seems to have thought that I said that whenever the word "persons" was used there must be some women included in the body referred to. I did not say that and I did not mean it. The question is whether such a mandatory provision (as he rightly calls it) should be put into this Bill. I should advise the Committee not to take that course.

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He is referring to paragraph 5 at the bottom of page 86, which reads:
"Every education committee of a local authority shall include persons of experience in education and persons acquainted with the educational conditions prevailing in the area for which the committee acts."
It is not a proposal, therefore, that we should alter the general scheme of appointment or election, which rests with the local education authority, and the local education authority in its turn is appointed without the direct intervention of Parliament.
I do not want to imagine a far-fetched case, but it is not difficult to suppose that there might be a case in which there might not be two women on the local education authority who satisfied this condition and, of course, if you say "men and women" there must be at least two women. The practice has been to rely won the judgment and good sense of the local education authority, and I do not think that experience goes to show that in modern days at any rate they have excluded women. It would certainly be remarkable if suitable women who were available were not put on a committee which deals both with girls and boys.
LORD RENNELL: There is a large number of education authorities on which there are no elected women—a considerably larger number than would be covered by the point made by the Lord Chancellor; so that there does appear to be, in present areas at any rate, a need for mandatory powers for electing women to certain committees. Surely it is the intention of the Minister that women should be included, and it was with a view to clearing up that point that the Amendment was moved. I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD SOULBURY LORD SOULBURY moved, after subparagraph (b) in paragraph 8 of Part III, to insert:
"(c) provide that the selection and admission of pupils to schools maintained by the local education authority shall be in accordance with regulations made by the local education authority."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment and those that follow it relate to the schemes of delegation of the county councils to the divisional executives referred to in paragraph 8. This particular Amendment seeks to provide that the
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selection and admission of pupils to schools maintained by the local education authority shall be in accordance with regulations made by that authority. There seems to be no mention in this paragraph of any such provision in the scheme. I think such a provision is very important, if not essential, on account of the potential existence of what are called in the Bill "excepted districts." The area of these divisional executives will very often not coincide with the normal "catchment area" of the school. In the past the provision of secondary and technical schools in a county has always been on a very wide basis, without any regard to local government boundaries and in most cases all admissions to secondary schools have been arranged centrally. It has been usual to provide for the equitable distribution of school places. But under this Bill it may well be that the excepted district may have in its area less or more than its share of secondary schools. Therefore I should have thought it would be advisable to have some central control, to ensure that the excepted district is on the one hand not deprived of, on the other hand not given an undue share of, the places available in the county secondary schools. It may be that my noble friend will satisfy me that this is unnecessary, but it occurred to me in reading the details of this paragraph that it might be advisable to make such a provision.
Amendment moved—
Page 89, line 19, at end insert the said subparagraph (c).—(Lord Soulbury.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am obliged to my noble friend for raising this point, and of course when he put the Amendment down it did receive very careful consideration in the Ministry. I am advised that the Amendment is not really necessary, and would in fact lay down too rigid a procedure, and compel local education authorities to make regulations which they might not wish to make. In so far as the authorities think it desirable that conditions of this sort should be imposed, they can either propose to do so under Paragraph 8 (c) in any scheme that they themselves prepare, or, in the case of an excepted district, make representations in that sense to the Minister, who under Paragraph 6 has to approve any scheme of divisional administration. It may well be that in certain cases conditions of this sort will have to

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be laid down in the scheme. In a great many cases the point would not arise, and I think my noble friend's words would mean that a lot of quite unnecessary regulations would have to be made. Therefore I suggest it is better to leave the Bill as it is in this respect.
LORD SOULBURY: I do not propose to press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD SOULBURY LORD SOULBURY moved to insert in paragraph 8:
"(c) provide that the regulations and conditions of service prescribed by the local education authority for its employees shall be uniform throughout the area of that authority."
The noble Lord said: The regulations and conditions of service which I have in mind in this Amendment are the duties of the teachers or other officers of the authority, the notices to be given on either side, the provision for hearing of a teacher or a representation of a teacher before his dismissal, sick pay regulations, and so forth. I think it really is desirable that these regulations should be so far as possible similar and uniform all over a county. If there are different ones in the area of a divisional executive to whom the powers have been delegated within the county I can conceive of very embarrassing situations arising. It is perfectly true that under Clause 6 (4) of the Bill this Amendment may be unnecessary as regards existing officers, but that clause does not seem to cover future appointments. When I raised this matter on the Second Reading my noble friend told me that each case would have to be considered separately and on its merits by the scheme. That seemed to be a somewhat vague and unsatisfactory way of dealing with the matter, because unless there is some objection which is not apparent to me, I should have thought it would be desirable that in a county area the conditions of the teachers and the details I have mentioned in regard to provision for hearing, representation, sick pay and so forth, should be uniform, so that all should be treated alike.
Amendment moved—
Page 89, line 19, at end insert the said subparagraph (c).—(Lord Soulbury.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I do not think it is really necessary to provide in an
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Act of Parliament that the regulations and conditions of service prescribed by a local education authority for its employees shall be uniform throughout the area of that authority. We shall all probably agree that in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred they will be. The local education authorities, after all, are popularly elected bodies, and I think my noble friend, who has great experience in these matters, will agree with me when I say that it is extremely difficult to justify a disparity of treatment of one's employees even in private affairs, and still more in public employment. Therefore if any local education authority wishes to be on good terms with its employees and to have contented employees, which there is no doubt local education authorities will, it will in most cases have a scheme which is of uniform application throughout its area. But it is rather difficult for us here to be sure that that will always be the case and that there may not be special circumstances in one particular area. Therefore I suggest this is a matter we could well leave to the local education authority.
LORD SOULBURY: I am much obliged to my noble friend and I do not propose to press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD SOULBURY LORD SOULBURY had given Notice of two Amendments to sub-paragraph (g) of paragraph 8 in Part III—namely, before "estimates of expenditure," to insert "estimates of income and," and to leave out "of accounts of expenditure so incurred; and for requiring such estimates and accounts to be subject to the approval of the authority" in order to insert "for requiring such estimates to be subject to the approval of the authority; and may, in the discretion of the authority, authorize the keeping of accounts of income and expenditure on behalf of the authority."
The noble Lord said: It is not very clear to me what paragraph (g) means. It may authorize and compel—because the paragraph starts off with the word "shall"—a divisional officer to set up a staff for the purpose of preparing its estimates and keeping its accounts. This might well involve quite unnecessary multiplication of financial processes, a waste of money, and a decrease of efficiency. All the necessary payments in the accountings

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could be done by the central fund of the local education authority without imposing on the divisional executive the need to engage additional staff. My Amendment is designed to secure that the local authority shall decide whether the keeping of accounts and the payment of bills shall be carried out locally or centrally. As your Lordships know, it will often be the case that the county offices are in the same town as the meeting place of the divisional executive, with its staff and all the facilities ready to hand. I should have thought it would be generally desirable for the accounts to be kept in a common form, thus avoiding the need for reconciliation if kept separate. The delegating authority, which has the final financial sanction, should have the right to adopt whichever system is more convenient.
Then again the estimates referred to in the scheme should be estimates of income as well as estimates of expenditure. Considerable duties may be delegated by the county conned to the divisional executive, involving receipts of money, and that should be specifically dealt with in the Bill. Generally speaking, my Amendment is designed to secure that the local education authority shall have the final word in the matter of accounting. If that were made clear a great deal of dispute and possible litigation might be avoided. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 89, line 33, after the first ("of") insert ("estimates of income and").—(Lord Soulbury.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Paragraph 8 (g) applies only in those cases where the scheme of divisional administration provides for the disbursement of money by the divisional executive as agents on behalf of the local education authority. There is nothing in paragraph 8 or in any other provision of the Bill to prevent a scheme of divisional administration providing that the local education authority themselves shall disburse the money and account for it without the agency of the divisional executive. In cases where the local education authority themselves undertake these functions of disbursing and accounting, paragraph 8 (g) would not apply. The submission of estimates of expenditure and income by divisional executives could be provided for under the scheme of divisional administration, under paragraph 8 (c). In other words,
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the Bill is very elastic in this respect. My noble friend's Amendment would be more rigid than was wise, and for that reason I cannot support him.
LORD SOULBURY: In view of my noble friend's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD SOULBURY LORD SOULBURY had on the Paper an Amendment to insert in paragraph 8:
"provide that the divisional executive shall order its representatives of the Press to its meetings unless the said executive by resolution excludes the Press from any particular meeting."
The noble Lord said: This is a matter to which, your Lordships will remember, the Bishop of Wakefield referred in his speech on the Second Reading. He would have moved it to-day if it had been possible for him to be here.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: May I interrupt my noble friend? Is there not a misprint in the Amendment? I cannot make it read—"the divisional executive shall order its representatives of the Press."
LORD SOULBURY: It should be "the representatives of the Press." I do not propose to recapitulate the argument of the right reverend Prelate, but your Lordships will remember that the President of the Board of Education in another place appeared to agree with the suggestion, or at any rate to have considerable sympathy with the proposal, that meetings of the divisional executives should be open to the Press unless they pass a resolution specifically excluding them. The President's words were:
"I shall undertake between now and the Report stage to see whether that is possible within the terms of the measure as drafted."
Nothing, as far as I am aware, has appeared in the Bill to deal with that, and I hope it is not too late to provide that the Press should have the same right to be present at meetings of the divisional executives as it has to be present at meetings of the local education authorities. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 89, line 40, at end insert: ("provide that the divisional executive shall order the representatives of the Press to its meetings unless the said executive by resolution excludes the Press from any particular meeting.").—(Lord Soulbury.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Under the Local Authorities (Admission of the Press) Act, the Press has a right to be admitted to proceedings of education committees where they are dealing with matters upon which the committees have the final decision. If the authority so determines, the Press may be admitted to other proceedings of the education committee, and this is in fact done in many areas—for instance, in London. The provisions of the Act of 1908 are unaffected by the Bill. They do not, however, apply to divisional executives since the latter are neither education authorities nor education committees. I have consulted with my right honourable friend in this matter, and we came to the conclusion that it would be inappropriate to insert in the Bill a provision giving the Press a prescriptive right to attend meetings of these bodies.
There may be general legislation on the subject in the not far distant future, and it is felt it would be inappropriate to make any general alteration of the law simply in regard to education. It would be possible under the Bill as it stands for a provision in regard to the Press to be included in the scheme of divisional administration by agreement between the parties concerned, but the President of the Board of Education could not undertake to require the inclusion of such a provision in a scheme of divisional administration. It would be improper for him to use his administrative powers to impose conditions on the divisional executives in a matter which has, in the past, been governed, in respect of local authorities and their committees, by Parliament. In other words, it is not proposed to alter the general law on this subject in this particular Bill. My right honourable friends think that it the law is to be altered it ought to be altered in a Bill of general application.
LORD SOULBURY: Do I understand my noble friend to say that he anticipates there will be a Bill of general application in the near future and covering the point at issue?
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I did not say that. In the view of the Government, if the matter is to be dealt with, it should be dealt with in a Bill of general application.
LORD SOUTHWOOD: May I ask the noble Earl if he can see any reason why the Press should not be admitted to any of these meetings? Could anything occur to keep the Press out? Why should they not be admitted?
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: That is the general question. At present a local authority has power to admit the Press if it wishes, but sometimes it does not exercise that power. The law at present is that it is within the discretion of the local authority, and that is quite a separate question. If the law is to be altered it ought to be of general application and should not apply merely to education.
LORD SOUTHWOOD: Would it not be wise for these divisional executives to admit the Press to their meetings?
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: There might be circumstances where it would not be wise. Publication of a debate might, for instance, inflame denominational or sectarian animosity at a moment when it would be very inopportune or injudicious to do so. Speech is silver, but silence is sometimes golden.
LORD SOUTHWOOD: Freedom of the Press!
LORD SOULBURY: I understand that at present the Press has a right to be admitted to the sessions of the local education authority unless specifically excluded by resolution. I do not quite follow why the same condition should not apply to the bodies receiving the delegated powers from the local education authorities. It is difficult to see the distinction.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: Perhaps it is the word "order" that is causing the difficulty. I am quite sure what the framer of this Amendment wrote was "admit," not "order its." I do not know if it will make any difference if the word were "admit" but I should be rather glad to have it put in.
LORD SOULBURY: Something appears to have gone wrong. I am quite sure my manuscript was not put into print.
EARL DE LA WARR: I think it natural this point should have been raised. I cannot help thinking the Minister has dealt properly with the point. It is difficult for Parliament to tell local authorities how they should conduct their busi-

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ness in an affair like this. I hope therefore the Committee will not press the Minister.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD SOULBURY LORD SOULBURY moved in the proviso in Paragraph 8, after the first "to," to insert—
("(i) appoint or dismiss a teacher without the consent of the local education authority. (ii)"
The noble Lord said: This Amendment refers to the question of the appointing or dismissal of a teacher without the consent of the local education authority. As I understand it, under this scheme, an excepted district would have the power to appoint or dismiss a teacher without referring the matter to the local education authority. When I raised that on the Second Reading my noble friend told me that the answer was that the circumstances varied and added:
"Some of these divisional executives will be very experienced authorities who have been engaging and dismissing teachers for forty years whereas other executives may not have the same experience. Therefore it would be absurd to say that no divisional executive should exercise these functions. Each case will have to be dealt with separately on its merits."
In effect that answer means that some Part III authorities may get the powers to dismiss or appoint teachers and other Part III authorities or other delegated bodies would not get those powers.
I raise this point because I think it would put upon the President the task of making invidious exceptions. Without doubt every excepted district will take this power. That is a certainty. But I do not know if every excepted district will have the necessary experience such as my noble friend laid down in his answer to me. If the President of the Board thinks a district has not got the necessary experience, presumably he will have to strike that power out of the district scheme. There is certain to be very considerable soreness over any such action and the stricken district will immediately complain that such and such a delegated body of such and such a district has got the power while another district has not got it and ask why should it not have it. The' President will be compelled to say: "You have not had enough experience." Very few Part III authorities have had much experience, certainly not as much as the Part II authorities. Then,
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as the scheme is at present, we get this curious position. The county councils, as I understand it, remain the employers of the teachers but they have no right or may have no right either to appoint or dismiss the teachers they employ.
We have been told, I think in another place, that the local education authority would be responsible for the schools and have the right to inspect them and see if the education is efficient. At the same time the local education authority will not have the right to appoint or dismiss a teacher or consent to the dismissal of a teacher, although that teacher may be responsible for the inefficiency of the school. The divisional executive itself is not the employer but it has the right of dismissal and the right of appointment. I doubt whether the divisional executive will always feel quite the same degree of obligation to the teacher in regard to his professional future as the employer would do. If the teacher is dismissed by the regional executive, where can he look for further employment in the area of the local education authority if the divisional executive in the area has the absolute power of appointment of the teachers in that area. At present a teacher employed by the county council has a wider field for promotion and transfer, and there is a greater opportunity for him if he is unsuitable in a particular school, or is redundant to the staff of a school, of obtaining employment in the same area. He may be absorbed into a school in some other part of the county. The chance of absorption elsewhere in a county is greatly diminished if the county is carved up into divisional executives which have the sole power of appointment. Therefore I suggest that the local education authority should have some control over the dismissal and appointment of teachers. They may have some control by consent in a case of dismissal or some power of confirmation in cases of appointment.
In that connexion I might refer the noble Earl to Clause 92 which provides that compensation for dismissal shall be payable by a local education authority although the local education authority may have no say whatsoever in the dismissal of the teacher they may have to compensate. We get this position. The county council employs, the county council cannot appoint, the county council cannot dismiss, but is liable to pay compensation in case of dismissal. I

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suggest this is a case which the Government might well consider and see whether it is not possible to provide that in the case of the divisional excepted district the appointment and dismissal of teachers should be subject to the consent of the larger body, in this case the local education authority who employs the teachers. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 89, line 42, after the first ("to") insert—
("(i) appoint or dismiss a teacher without the consent of the local education authority.
(ii)").—(Lord Soulbury.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I think my noble friend is quite right when he says that the terms of the Bill as they are at present will impose a heavy duty on the Minister of Education, not only an onerous duty but one that may be sometimes embarrassing. I think he is also probably right when he says every divisional executive will want to have the power of appointing and dismissing its teachers, but my right honourable friend has come to the conclusion that however much work is involved in this it is a burden that he and his successors will necessarily have to shoulder, for the simple reason that the circumstances in the different parts of the country are so very different and you cannot equitably or wisely lay down a rule that is of universal application. My noble friend raised this matter, as he has reminded your Lordships, in the Second Reading debate. I then had to say to him that this problem would have to be dealt with in every scheme separately and I believe that to be the case. If my noble friend's Amendment is accepted you would have the case of a body which, for forty years, has been engaging, appointing and dismissing teachers and would be putting them under the tutelage of another body. That might cause an enormous amount of friction. I am afraid I cannot accept my noble friend's Amendment. In spite of the arguments there are in favour of it, in practice I am afraid it could not be applied all over the country without very great friction.
LORD SOULBURY: I am sorry that in trying to help my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Education and to save him from trouble the answer is really "save me from my
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friends." I foresee the possibility of a great deal of trouble to the President as a result of this but I shall content myself by saying later on, "I told you so" and shall not press my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
SECOND SCHEDULE.
Transfer to a local education authority of an interest in the premises of an auxiliary school.
7. Where any person other than the managers or governors of the school has a right to the occupation or use of the school premises or any part thereof for any particular purpose, no provision of any agreement made under this schedule shall affect that right unless he has consented thereto.
EARL GREY EARL GREY moved, in paragraph (7), after "unless," to insert "after his attention has been called to his right." The noble Earl said: This schedule deals with the transfer to the local education authority of the interest in the premises of auxiliary schools. On page 91, paragraph 7, says:
"Where any person other than the managers or governors of the school has a right to the occupation or use of the school premises, or any part thereof for any particular purpose, no provision of any agreement made under this schedule shall affect that right unless he has consented thereto.
I understand that in ninety-nine cases out of one hundred "any person other than the managers" means the incumbent of the parish. It has been pointed out to us that it is quite possible that an agreement might be made just after a new incumbent has been appointed. He might not know his right and therefore it is only fair that his right should be pointed out to him before he is asked to consent to a change in his right of user. Another point which occurs to me is that there might be a vacancy in the living at the time. For some years to come it is likely to be extremely difficult to find incumbents and six months may elapse between the one who goes out and the one who goes in. If any agreement is made in that time I do not quite know how the right of the incumbent is going to be protected. I hope the noble Lord will give attention to that aspect and that he will be able to agree to the insertion of these words.
Amendment moved—
Page 91, line 29, after ("unless") insert ("after his attention has been called to his rights").—(Earl Grey.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am advised that this Amendment is not really necessary. My noble friend is quite right in saying that where the Bill says "person" what is really meant is "parson." His consent is needed. How can you obtain his consent without his knowing that you are asking for something? If the parson's consent is required it must be asked, and if it is asked and he gives consent, presumably in writing, surely he must be aware that it is necessary to obtain his consent. I will look into the matter again, because I confess I had not contemplated the case my noble friend visualizes where there is a vacancy in the living, but even in that case it seems to me consent would have to be given by somebody and therefore I do not think my noble friend's Amendment is necessary.
EARL GREY: I will not press my Amendment but I may say it was suggested to me by a very distinguished Parliamentary draftsman.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Second Schedule agreed to.
THIRD SCHEDULE.
Special Agreements in respect of certain auxiliary schools.
3. No agreement shall be made under this Schedule after the expiration of six months or such extended period as the Minister may in any particular case allow from the date upon which the local education order for the area of the local aducation authority first comes into force.
7. Any agreement made under this schedule may provide for the giving of religious instruction in the school in accordance with the provisions of the trust deed relating to the school, or, where provision for that purpose is not made by such a deed, in accordance with the practice observed in the school before it became an auxiliary school, and for the employment in the school, for the purpose of giving such religious instruction, of such number of reserved teachers as may be specified in the agreement.
THE EARL OF PERTH THE EARL OF PERTH moved in paragraph 3, to substitute "twelve" for "six." The noble Earl said: My noble friend Lord Rankeillour has asked me to move this Amendment on his behalf. Experience of the working of the 1936 Act shows that the agreements referred to in this schedule often took a very long time to conclude. We therefore feel that the period should be extended from six
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months to twelve months. I realize that the schedule as drafted does give the Minister power to extend the six months in exceptional cases, but we think that if he adheres to the six months the power would not become exceptional but customary, and would give a good deal of extra labour. If the period is twelve months, then the power to extend would remain exceptional.
Amendment moved—
Page 92, line 22, leave out ("six") and insert ("twelve").—(The Earl of Perth).
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am afraid I cannot accept the Amendment, the purpose of which is to increase the period within which special agreements in respect of certain auxiliary schools may be made. The purpose of the time limit is to ensure that there shall not be undue delay in the work of reorganization and reconstruction which is one of the main aims of the Bill. Since orders would not be made until eighteen months after April, 1945, the six months' limit from that date would give two years which should be ample for the preparation of agreements. It must be remembered that most of them were put forward by March 1, 1938, or September 1, 1938, at the latest. It should also be noted that in any particular case if there is good reason for extending the period the Bill gives the Minister power to do so. I do not think the Amendment is really necessary. In nearly every case I understand the managers would have something like two and a, half years to make this agreement. Therefore I hope my noble friend will not press the Amendment.
THE EARL OF PERTH: I only referred to the experience we have had of the working of the 1936 Act, but I do not intend to press the Amendment. I can only adopt the attitude of the noble Lord, Lord Soulbury, and say I am afraid I shall have to say "I told you so" later.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD GORELL LORD GORELL moved to substitute "shall" for "may" in paragraph 7. The noble Lord said: By the present wording of the Bill any agreement made under this schedule "may" provide for the giving of this instruction. I thought one of the main purposes of the Bill was not that religious instruction should be permissive but mandatory. The word "shall" is used in several other para-

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graphs of the schedule, and it is also used in Clause 27. It seems to me that the use of the word "may" here is inconsistent with that. For instance, the proviso in subsection (1) of Clause 27 says "arrangements shall be made for religious instruction in accordance with that syllabus. …" My Amendment is designed to bring the schedule into accord with the body of the Bill and I think it is necessary.
Amendment moved—
Page 92, line 42, leave out ("may") and insert ("shall").—(Lord Gorell.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: This Amendment is an Amendment to paragraph 7 which reads as follows:
"Any agreement made under this schedule may provide for the giving of religious instruction in the school in accordance with the provisions of the trust deed relating to the school, or, where provision for that purpose is not made by such a deed, in accordance with the practice observed in the school before it became an auxiliary school, and for the employment in the school, for the purpose of giving such religious instruction, of such number of reserved teachers as may be specified in the agreement."
There is nothing in the Bill to compel the employment of reserved teachers in special agreement schools. The word "may" is therefore the proper one.
If the noble Lord will look at Clause 27 (1) which deals with special provisions as to the local education in aided schools and in special agreement schools he will see that it reads:
"The religious instruction given to the pupils in attendance at an aided school or at a special agreement school shall be under the control of the managers or governors of the school and shall be in accordance with any provisions of the trust deed relating to the school, or, where provision for that purpose is not made by such a deed, in accordance with the practice observed in the school before it became an auxiliary school:"
That is where my noble friend will find the compelling power. This paragraph in the Third Schedule must be read in conjunction with that, and I am advised that, "may" is the proper word to use in the schedule.
LORD GORELL: That was my whole point; that the two are not quite consistent. I have carefully studied Clause 27 subsection (1), and I notice that the word "shall" was used. That was the very reason I put down this Amendment. But if the noble Earl is quite satisfied
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that they are consistent I have nothing more to say, and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Third Schedule agreed to.
Fourth Schedule agreed to.
Fifth Schedule [Supplemental provisions as to powers of courts for enforcing school attendance]:
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved to leave out the Fifth Schedule. The noble Earl said: This is a consequential Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 94, leave out Schedule 5.—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Sixth Schedule agreed to.
SEVENTH SCHEDULE.
Procedure for preparing and bringing into operation an agreed syllabus of religious education.
2. For the purpose of constituting such a conference as aforesaid the local education authority shall appoint committees consisting of persons representing respectively—

(a) such religious denominations as, in the opinion of the authority ought, having regard to the circumstances of the area to be represented;

(b) except in the case of an area in Wales or Monmouthshire, the Church of England;

(c) associations representative of teachers in the area; and

(d) the authority:

11. The body of persons so appointed:

(a) shall give to the authority, the conference, and every committee constituting the conference, an opportunity of making representations to it, but, save as aforesaid, may conduct the proceedings in such manner as it thinks fit;

(b) shall, after considering any such representations made to it, prepare a syllabus of religious instruction;

(c) shall transmit a copy of the said syllabus to the authority and to the Minister, and as from such date as the Minister may direct, the syllabus so prepared shall be deemed to be the agreed syllabus of religious instruction adopted for use in the schools for which, or for the class or description of pupils for which, it was prepared until a further syllabus is prepared for use in those schools, or for pupils of that class or description, in accordance with the provisions of this schedule.

THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON moved, in paragraph 2, to substitute "panels" for "committees." The right reverend

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Prelate said: This proposal is to substitute the word "panels" for the word "committees," and I move it entirely in the hope of saving some people from a misunderstanding. The four committees are quite clearly intended by the schedule to constitute one conference. The committees have a separate existence for two reasons. First so that each of the four parties may have proper representation. There is, of course, no need for committees to be the same size as each other. The second reason is that when it comes to voting each committee shall have only one vote so that any disparity of numbers in the committees does not mater. But the whole conference will do the work as one body, and when they appoint a subcommittee they have to see that at least one member of each of the Committees is upon it.
It has been represented to me that some persons have misunderstood the use of the word "committee" and they think that the intention of the schedule is that each committee shall be a body with its own particular responsibility, which will sit separately and draw up its own syllabus, and, when it has drawn up its own syllabus, will sit in conference with the other committees in order to see how far the various syllabuses can be reconciled. I cannot for my part believe that that is the intention of the schedule or that the committees would work like that. I think that, possibly, to call them panels instead of committees makes clear just precisely what their function is. No doubt, if they wished it, each panel or committee could meet separately to discuss some particular point. The panel is merely a device for getting representation of the various interests concerned. I venture to put this forward in order to prevent the misunderstanding which has, I know, taken root in some people's minds. I suggest that to call these bodies panels is to make the thing perfectly clear. Four panels are drawn up; each panel votes as one and has only one vote, but the work is done by the four panels sitting in conference together.
Amendment moved—
Page 96, line 9, leave out ("committees") and insert ("panels").—(The Lord Bishop of London.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This is to a certain extent a linguistic point, though I appreciate what has just been said by the right reverend Prelate that it
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may also involve something more important. I am looking at it for the moment purely as a drafting matter, as a matter of convenience. Really and truly "panel" does not—with great respect to the right reverend Prelate—represent what is here created. A panel is a list of people out of whom you may draw one or more to serve some purpose or other. The jury panel, for example, is a list of people qualified to act as members of a jury, but they do not in fact all sit in the jury box. That illustrates the proper meaning of the word panel.
Might I remind the Committee that we have just passed the Sixth Schedule and in that schedule the word "panel" is used in its right sense. If we turn to page 93 we there read
"For the purpose of enabling independent schools tribunals to be constituted as occasion may require there shall be appointed two panels, that is to say—

(a) a panel (hereinafter referred to as the 'legal panel') appointed by the Lord Chancellor, of persons who will be available to act when required as chairman of such tribunal; and

(b) a panel (hereinafter referred to as the 'educational panel') appointed by the Lord President of the Council, of persons who will be available to act when required as members of any such tribunal."

That is the proper use of the word, and it strikes one, if I may say so with great respect, that it would be rather unfortunate if one should turn over the page to the Seventh Schedule and find again the word "panel" but this time meaning a whole body of persons, and not simply a source, a well, out of which individuals might be drawn.
I think that deserves a moment's attention. Undoubtedly that is the meaning of "panel" in England. In Scotland, of course, this Bill does not apply, but it happens that in Scotland "panel" means "prisoner at the bar" which is still more unfortunate. But I do understand the point which the right reverend Prelate makes. He is anxious to secure that there should be no doubt on the face of the Bill that the conference should be a single body which is built up of certain elements, and should not be regarded merely as a body on which four different elements meet for the purpose of a round table discussion. I may say, so far as it is for me to express an opinion, that I thoroughly sympathize with much that the right reverend Prelate says, and I

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suggest that unless the House takes a strong view to the contrary, we had better look at this and, it may be, insert a third word if we hit on one. I do not myself take the view on reading the Schedule that these committees, as they are called, would never meet separately. Take for example the third one composed of people from associations representative of teachers in the area. I can imagine before a conference the members of such a body saying: "We had better have a little meeting among ourselves beforehand to see whether we can agree on this particular matter." That would be a meeting of the committee by itself—quite a legitimate and proper thing.
The substance of this is, I am certain, as the right reverend Prelate has said. The idea is not to create a meeting of four bodies, each of which is pushing its own interest and joining in a confabulation, whether round a circular table or on the four sides of a square table, but that this thing will be created and forged by the good will and the joint efforts of everybody concerned. That is the conception, and I most thoroughly appreciate that fact. If, therefore, the right reverend Prelate will agree to withdraw his Amendment for the moment, we will see whether there is some other and perhaps neutral word which will not give so strong an impression as does "committee" that these are self-contained bodies with a life and soul of their own.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: I gladly accept that offer. I am not in the least wedded to the word "panel." The noble and learned Viscount has expressed precisely what is in my mind—the need to get away from the idea of four separate entities, each with its own life. I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON moved, at the beginning of sub-paragraph (c) in paragraph 2, to insert "all." The right reverend Prelate said: This is quite a different point. The Bill says that on this conference there shall be represented "(c) associations representative of teachers in the area." That is obviously right and proper, and it never struck me that the words there could be anything but sufficient and satisfactory; but my attention has been drawn to a matter
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which I think is of such great importance that I am bound to raise it here, because it shows that these words provide a loophole for very serious abuse. My evidence comes from a completely reliable and unimpeachable source, though I cannot quote it.
A certain local education authority of importance and standing has already acted in anticipation of the Bill and constituted a conference on the lines of the Seventh Schedule to work out an agreed syllabus. That is a very proper thing for it to do. It has appointed to the committee of teachers three persons—two teachers representing primary schools and one teacher representing secondary schools—all of whom are members of the National Union of Teachers. So far there is no harm done, but what follows is notable. The Headmasters' Association, the Headmistresses' Association, the Association of Assistant Masters and the Association of Assistant Mistresses—four bodies who play a greater part in secondary education than any other educational bodies—finding that they were not represented on the conference, made application to the local education authority to have such representation given to them. The reply which they received was that under the Bill they could not claim any representation, and that if they were represented then other associations would have to be given representation also; and therefore they were turned down.
I expect that most of your Lordships know the kind of standing in the educational world which is possessed by the Incorporated Association of Headmasters, the similar body of headmistresses, the Assistant Masters' Association and the Assistant Mistresses' Association. It is quite unthinkable that when an agreed syllabus is to be constructed which applies not only to primary but also to secondary schools those teachers, who have had far more experience of secondary education and of religious education in secondary schools, the teaching of sixth forms and so on, than anybody else, should be refused representation on the committee representing the teachers. Paragraph 3 of this Seventh Schedule requires the local education authority to "take all reasonable steps" to assure themselves that a teacher appointed to represent an association shall really represent it, but that paragraph does not offer any help here. I have no doubt whatever that the three

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teachers who have been appointed in this way fully represent the National Union of Teachers; the trouble is that other associations of very high standing have been refused representation altogether.
I cannot think that there are very many local education authorities in this country who would dream of doing such a thing; the astonishing thing is that one local education authority has, inadvertently no doubt, revealed its capacity for doing such a thing by doing it in advance of the Bill. If there is even one local authority in the country who can so act it must be made impossible in the Bill, for I think the Committee will agree that this is a state of affairs which cries out for remedy in order that the teachers may be properly represented. I therefore move this Amendment to insert the word "all." I do not know whether that is the right way to do it, but here is a problem which must be met and solved in the Bill, and I move this Amendment to ask the Government whether they know of any better way of solving it than that which I have proposed. I have not the slightest doubt that they will agree with me that a course of action such as I have described ought to be made absolutely impossible under the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 96, line 16, at the beginning insert ("all").—(The Lord Bishop of London.)
LORD GORELL: Before the noble Earl replies, I should like to say that it is with extraordinary interest that I have listened to the words which have just fallen from the right reverend Prelate. I wish very much that he had been able to be here yesterday to support my Amendment, because this is an exact exemplification of the difficulty in which the Board of Education are placing themselves by refusing to recognize the Teachers Registration Council, which is the only body which does represent all teachers. That was precisely the point which I made. There will be, I have no doubt whatever, continual difficulty unless some use is made of that one body which does represent them all. I was particularly interested, therefore, in the right reverend Prelate's Amendment.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I think that the right reverend Prelate has added to the debt which we already owe him for his help on this Bill by drawing attention to what is possible under the Bill as it has been drafted, though this
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is certainly not what was intended. It is quite clear that paragraph 2 (c) of the Seventh Schedule means a committee which is really representative of the teachers of the area, and not merely of one association of teachers. I agree with the right reverend Prelate that something must be done to meet the point which he has made. He proposes to add the word "all," so that paragraph 2 (c) would read: "All associations representative of teachers in the area." Here we are faced by the fact that there are over fifty associations of teachers. My noble friend Lord Gorell triumphantly said that if the various people concerned would only adopt his plan that difficulty would disappear, but I am afraid that the various people concerned include all the teachers in the country, and the fact that the Teachers Registration Council does not command more support from the teachers is really a matter which is beyond the control of the Board of Education and primarily concerns the teachers themselves.
The situation with which we are faced is that there are over fifty teachers' associations, although some of them are very much bigger and more important than others. I do not think, therefore, that the word "all" quite meets the case. The right reverend Prelate asked me what remedy the Government had—had not the Government thought of such an eventuality, had they made no provision for it in the Bill? Well, we had made provision for precisely this sort of eventuality, but that provision was found in subsection (2) of Clause 93. Now my noble friends Lord Rankeillour, Lord Roche and Lord Stanhope, having destroyed subsection (2) of Clause 93, have gone home and are no longer in their places and we are left here faced with this difficulty without the help of those noble Lords and without the help of subsection (2) of Clause 93. That particular subsection would have met the point of the right reverend Prelate, but in view of those circumstances I must of course give an undertaking to the right reverend Prelate that this matter will be examined before the Report stage, and we will insert words which will prevent the occurrence of the sort of incident to which the right reverend Prelate referred.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: I am perfectly willing to accept that. I never imagined that the insertion of the word

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"all" would be a satisfactory solution, but I am more than content if between now and the Report stage the matter is examined and is dealt with on the Report stage. I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY moved, after paragraph 9, to insert:
"10. It shall be competent for the conference to recommend to the local education authority the appointment of a standing religious advisory committee to advise on methods of teaching, the provision of books and lectures for teachers, and generally as to religious instruction in all types of schools."
The most reverend Primate said: On behalf of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield, who is unable to be here to-day, I am glad to move this Amendment because I think it is most desirable that there should in most places be a continuing body capable of watching religious instruction and capable of receiving recommendations from teachers for the revision of the syllabus. These syllabuses have been improving at a great pace since they first began to be introduced some twenty years ago, and a great deal of experience has been gathered. It is extremely important that no syllabus, once it has been drawn up, should be regarded as final. It should be capable of being revised in the light of experience, and it would be useful to have a permanent body which could receive suggestions, debate them, and bring before the authority the results of their consideration. This is of course a purely permissive clause. I dare say we shall be told it is not necessary. I should have thought it would have been an advantage to make a suggestion, but that is improper in an Act of Parliament. I shall not press the point, I merely raise it.
Amendment moved—
Page 97, line 14, at end insert the said paragraph.—(The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am advised that statutory authority is not required to enable the conference or anybody else to recommend anything to a local education authority. I quite sympathize with the object that the right reverend Prelate had in putting down this Amendment. The actual form of the Amendment would not do, however, because, as worded, it would entitle the
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Committee to give advice on instruction in Roman Catholic schools. I do not suppose that any religious advisory committee would wish to do so, as the Roman Catholic Church would not be represented upon it. But this committee would be purely advisory. It would be without any statutory powers, and there is nothing to prevent such committees being set up or the conference created by the Bill being continued if all the parties agree. If all the parties do not agree, then I do not think it would function even though this Amendment were put in the Bill. Therefore the Government are inclined to think that no useful purpose would be served by putting this Amendment into the Bill. But if the matter is pressed by those who are primarily concerned, that is to say the most reverend Primate and others, I would certainly undertake to consider it. But my answer to the most reverend Primate is that no legislative change would be effected by this Amendment. It would not have any effect, and therefore it is not thought that a useful purpose would be served by putting it into the Bill.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: I am very grateful for the assurance of the noble Earl, to which reference can be made if necessary, that there is nothing that hinders the making of such an advisory body a permanent feature in the administration of a local education authority. I think my best course would be to consult the Bishop of Wakefield as to whether he would wish to press for further consideration. So far as I am concerned I am content but if he sees any reason, from his great experience of these matters in local education authorities, for pursuing it further, I have no doubt that what the noble Earl has said will mean that suggestions put forward will be carefully and sympathetically reviewed. I beg to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: The Bishop of Chichester asked me to move the next Amendment—[in paragraph 10, after "conference" to insert "or if any question arises concerning the character of an agreed syllabus which in the opinion of the Minister ought to be considered"]—but I really do not know precisely what he had in his mind, and therefore I think I had better not move it.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON moved, in paragraph 11, to insert:
"(a) shall consist of persons representing respectively the Church of England and other religious denominations, associations of teachers and local education authorities,"
The right reverend Prelate said: I am prepared to move this Amendment on behalf of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chichester without any particular conviction, but the point is clear. The body of persons appointed is to consist of representatives of the same categories as are represented on the committees. The body having experience which is charged by the Minister to prepare a syllabus when the local authority fails to adopt one is to consist of representatives of the Church of England, other religious denominations and associations of teachers and the local authorities. In this matter I am entirely in the hands of the House and of the Government. If they think it is an advantage to define in this way the body which the Minister is to appoint, and to see that the same categories are represented upon it, well and good, but I cannot myself feel that it is a matter of urgency, and in such a matter the Minister could, I think, exercise his own discretion.
Amendment moved—
Page 97, line 21, at end insert the said subparagraph (a).—(The Lord Bishop of London).
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am anxious that there should be no doubt on this matter, and therefore I am willing to accept the Amendment on the understanding that if, on reconsideration, the words are found to require modification it would not be regarded as a breach of faith if I moved an Amendment to them on the Report stage.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD GORELL LORD GORELL moved to insert:
"12. Notwithstanding anything in this schedule a local education authority which adopted a syllabus of religious instruction before the passing of this Act may continue to use that syllabus unless and until they have decided to establish an agreed syllabus in accordance with the provisions of this schedule and unless they so decide the syllabus so adopted shall be deemed to be the agreed syllabus."
The noble Lord said: I see that the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Chichester, has a similar Amendment on the Paper, not in precisely the same words, but to the same effect. It is a matter
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of indifference to me which may be found more correct. The only purpose of this Amendment is to facilitate the work where syllabuses have already been prepared. It is in the nature really of an interim measure to allow those syllabuses to be adopted unless hereafter it is found desirable to prepare an agreed syllabus in accordance with the provisions of the Schedule. Until that is so resolved, the syllabus now in use shall be deemed to be an agreed syllabus. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 97, line 36, at end insert the said new paragraph.—(Lord Gorell.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am advised that this suggestion would not work because it leaves it open to a local education authority which has already adopted an agreed syllabus not to convene a conference in accordance with paragraph 1. This would not do because some of the so-called agreed syllabuses have not in fact been agreed to by the accredited representatives of the teachers. The word "preparing" in paragraph 1 might be held to preclude a conference from adopting an existing agreed syllabus. It has also to be remembered that the present agreed syllabuses were designed for use in public elementary schools and are not necessarily suited to older children in grammar schools, who may stay there up to nineteen and for whom, under the Bill, religious instruction will have to be provided. Therefore the answer to my noble friend is that the President of the Board of Education does not favour the idea that the agreed syllabuses should be automatically continued because it is desirable that they should all be reviewed. We all hope that the tremendous foundation stone of mutual understanding and trust that these agreed syllabuses achieved will be a most important factor in the new settlement. For the reason I have given, it is inadvisable to make the adoption of an agreed syllabus, which has hitherto been used, automatic under the Bill.
LORD GORELL: I thank the noble Earl for the clarity and the courtesy of his answer, which is satisfactory to me, and ask leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON moved to insert as a new paragraph:
"12. Notwithstanding anything in this schedule where any local education authority

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has adopted a syllabus of religious instruction before Part II of this Act came into operation they may continue to use that syllabus until they resolve to prepare an agreed syllabus in accordance with this schedule, and, until they so resolve, that syllabus shall be deemed to be an agreed syllabus."
The right reverend Prelate said: I move this Amendment on behalf of the Bishop of Chichester. It is not exactly the same as the one we have just been discussing to which objection has been expressed by the noble Earl. This Amendment simply says that until the new agreed syllabus has been drawn up the conference may authorize the existing syllabus if it thinks fit. If the conference so recommends, the present syllabus may continue to be used until the agreed syllabus has been prepared. The advantage of this Amendment over that moved by Lord Gorell is that it puts the onus on the conference. There is no question of dodging the task of preparing a new syllabus or merely letting the old one run on. The conference must meet, but it would be perfectly legitimate for it to say, "It will take six months to prepare an agreed syllabus, and during those six months we as a conference accept the syllabus hitherto in use by the local authority." It is merely giving a carryover power. Failing such a power, presumably there would be an interval when possibly there was no agreed syllabus in existence and the Act could not operate. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 97, line 36, at end insert the said new paragraph.—(The Lord Bishop of London.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am advised that the difficulty about this is that there are some local education authorities which have no agreed syllabus. Clause 25 requires that on and after April 1, 1945, religious instruction in county schools shall be in accordance with an agreed syllabus. If by that date an agreed syllabus has not been specially prepared in accordance with the Seventh Schedule, the conference will, as an interim measure, need to recommend the adoption of the existing syllabus. Where there is a syllabus already in operation it will no doubt be continued during the interim period, but, as I have said, there are some local education authorities which have not yet adopted an agreed syllabus. I do not quite see how this Amendment would work in these circumstances.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: I agree that it does not meet that situation, but it does meet the situation where there is an authorized syllabus and one which it is desired to continue for the time being. Where no syllabus exists, normally the conference will have at once to adopt some already prepared syllabus as an interim measure. I do not wish to press the point if it is regarded as unnecessary and if it is assumed that the conference can continue the use of an existing syllabus.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I shall gladly look into the matter again, but I am disposed to think that this Amendment is not really necessary.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Seventh Schedule agreed to.
Eighth Schedule agreed to.
Ninth Schedule [Amendment of Enactments]:
LORD AMNION LORD AMNION moved, in Part I, in the reference to the London Government Act, 1939, to insert:

"Section sixty-four.

After the words 'mental hospitals committee of the county council' there shall be inserted the words 'or of a subcommittee of any such committee'; and the words 'aided, provided or' shall be omitted."

The noble Lord said: This really follows on an alteration already made in the Bill following an amendment of the Local Government Act, 1933, which not only enables teachers to serve on education committees and committees dealing with mental defectives and so on, but also to serve on sub-committees of those committees. That Act does not apply to London, but there are similar provisions made in the London Government Act, 1939, and this Amendment brings the Bill into line.
Amendment moved—
Page 103, line 12, at end insert the said new words.—(Lord Ammon).
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am much obliged to my noble friend. What he says is perfectly true, and I have great pleasure in accepting the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Ninth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

TENTH SCHEDULE.
  ENACTMENTS REPEALED.

    PART I.
    Enactments repealed from date of commencement of Part II of this Act.

    1 Edw. 8 & 1 Geo. 6. c. 46.

    The Physical Training and Recreation Act, 1937.

    Sections one to three and Section six and in Section eight in subsection (1) thereof the words "including any grants paid or payable under or by virtue of this Act," and subsection (2).

    1 & 2 Geo. 6. c. 40.

    The Children and Young Persons Act, 1938.

    Section three; in Section four, in subsection (1) thereof, the words "or under Section forty-five of the Education Act, 1921, as so amended," and in subsection (2) thereof the words "and Section forty-five of the Education Act, 1921."

    LORD GORELL LORD GORELL had given Notice of an Amendment to insert in PART I:

    "7 Edw. 7. c. 43.

    The Education (Administrative Provisions) Act, 1907.

    Section 16."

    The noble Lord said: It is necessary to say one word, but only one word, about this in view of what fell from the noble Earl a few moments ago. He referred to the Teachers Registration Council as though it were my plan. It is necessary for me to emphasize that I am the representative of a movement which began long before I was born and which has had statutory authority for a generation. This particular Section Sixteen of the Education (Administrative Provisions) Act, 1907, is in fact the statutory authority under which Sir Robert Morant acted when he drew up the memorandum on which the Teachers Registration Council came into existence in 1912. I have endeavoured, in the coarse of these debates, to elicit from the noble Earl whether the Government were, or were not, prepared to make any use of the Teachers Registration Council, but, with that singular blend of courtesy, ability and agility he has dis-
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    played throughout this debate, he has evaded my question. I gathered that the whole policy of the Government on this matter can be summed up in the lines:
    "Thou must not kill but need'st not strive
    Officiously to keep alive."
    I personally would prefer that something which is not going to be used should be brought to an end, but I have no mandate from the teachers' council to say on their behalf that they wish an end put to their statutory existence. This Amendment was put down in conjunction with one that I hoped would be accepted but as it has not been accepted I have no alternative but to refrain from moving this Amendment.
    LORD ABERDARE LORD ABERDARE had put down an Amendment to omit the reference in Part I to the Physical Training and Recreation Act, 1937. The noble Lord said: I put down this Amendment before your Lordships reached the discussion on subsection (3) of Clause 51. In the light of the answer the noble Earl gave to my suggestion about an Amending Act, it seems to me quite unnecessary now to move this one. Moreover, I see that the noble Earl is moving an Amendment himself which will enable me to achieve the object I have in view.
    THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved in the reference to the Physical Training and Recreation Act, 1937, to leave out all words after "Sections one," and insert "'and two'; in Section three; in subsection (1) thereof the words from 'recommendations' to 'with' and the words 'after considering a recommendation of the grants committee', and in subsection (3) thereof the words 'after consultation with the National Council for England and Wales' and the words 'on the recommendation of the grants committee and'; Section six; and subsection (2) of Section eight." The noble Earl said: This is consequential on a previous Amendment. I beg to move.
    Amendment moved—
    Page 106, line 33, leave out from ("one") to the end of line 40, and insert the said new words.—(The Earl of Selborne.)
    On Question, Amendment agreed to.
    THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved to add to the reference to the Children and Young Persons Act, 1938, "in Section six, in subsection (1) thereof, the words 'or by virtue of subsection (2) of Section

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    three of this Act', and in subsection (2) thereof the words 'or under subsection (2) of Section three of this Act'." The noble Earl said: This Amendment corrects an omission. Schedule ten of the Education Bill, among other things, repeals Section three of the Children and Young Persons Act, 1938. Accordingly, any other references in that Act of 1938 to Section three therein should also be repealed. I beg to move.
    Amendment moved—
    Page 106, line 50, at end insert the said words.—(The Earl of Selborne.)
    On Question, Amendment agreed to.
    Schedule Ten, as amended, agreed to.
    House resumed.

AGRICULTURE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL.
Message from the Commons that they have ordered that the Committee appointed by them to join with the Committee of this House to consider the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill do meet the Lords Committee as proposed by their Lordships.
House adjourned.