Sitting of 21 June 1944

PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  INTER-AMERICAN DEVELOPMENT CONVENTION (REPORT)
  Mr. A. Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make available to Members, in the Library, a copy of the Report issued after the Convention of Commissions of Inter-American Development, recently held in New York.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): Yes, Sir. A copy of the Report has been obtained and is now available in the Library of the House for the use of hon. Members.

  YUGOSLAVIA
  Mr. Rileyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether His Majesty's Government or the Allied military command has been presented by Marshal Tito or his authorised officers with documentary evidence charging General Mihailovitch with having collaborated with German or Quisling forces in Yugoslavia and also with having opposed the forces under Marshal Tito's command, which are attacking and resisting the common enemy in Yugoslavia;
  (2) whether he can make any statement regarding the efforts now being made to form a united Government for Yugoslavia.
  Mr. Eden: I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State on this subject yesterday, to which I have at present nothing to add.
  Mr. Riley: That reply does not cover Question 2. Could I have an answer to that Question?
  Mr. Eden: I think it does. The position is that we have received a number of charges from various Partisan and other sources. That is the answer to Question 2.
  Mr. Rileyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Allied authorities have received any request from Marshal Tito to place the Yugoslav naval units, now under Allied protection, at the service of the Yugoslav liberation command for use against the common enemy.
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir, and I have reason to believe that this is a matter which may be discussed between the Yugoslav Prime Minister and Marshal Tito arising out of the conversations which they have already held.

  OFFICER PRISONERS OF WAR, GERMANY (SHOOTING)
  Miss Wardasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to make a full statement on the shooting by the Germans of R.A.F. officers in a prison camp.
  Mr. Eden: A preliminary report has been received from the German Government and His Majesty's Government are now in consultation with the Dominion Governments on the matter. I would therefore ask the hon. Lady to await a statement which I hope to be able to make very shortly.

  TERRITORIES LIBERATED BY RUSSIA (U.N.R.R.A.)
  Miss Wardasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any countries liberated specifically by the Forces of the Soviet Union are to be serviced by U.N.R.R.A.
  Mr. Eden: The position as regards Allied territories liberated by the Forces of the Soviet Union will be governed by sub-paragraphs 1 and 2 of Resolution No. 1 adopted at the first session of the Council of the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration. As these sub-paragraphs are somewhat detailed, I will, with permission, circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Miss Ward: Could my right hon. Friend say whether the Soviet practice is the same as our own, or is going to be the same as our own?
  Mr. Eden: I think that broadly speaking the answer to that is "Yes," but, as I say, it is a little complicated. That is why I would like the hon. Lady and other hon. Members to look at the full statement.
  Following are the sub-paragraphs:

  (1) In the case of a liberated area in which a Government or recognised national authority does not yet exercise administrative authority, the Administration will operate from such a time and for such a purpose as may be agreed upon between the military command and the Administration, and subject to such control as the military command may find necessary. The Administration shall, so far as circumstances permit, seek the advice of the Government or recognised national authority concerned;

  (2) in the case of a liberated area in which a Government or recognised national authority exercises administrative authority, the Administration will operate only after consultation with, and with the consent of, the Government or recognised national authority concerned regarding the form of activities to be undertaken by the Administration within the whole or part of such area.

  ARGENTINA (BRITISH-OWNED RAILWAYS)
  Lady Apsleyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the importance to the nation of British investment in Argentina, he has received any communication from the mission comprising three chairmen of British-owned companies who recently visited Argentina to discuss the problems facing the companies with the Argentine Government; and, if not, whether he will ascertain from them the nature of their conclusions.
  Mr. Eden: The three visiting directors of the four British-owned broad gauge railways in Argentina called upon my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary on 14th June and discussed with him certain conclusions which they have reached, and which are embodied in a report prepared for their colleagues on the
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  boards of the railways, who now have it under consideration.
  Lady Apsky: May I request that my right hon. Friend keeps the matter under his personal consideration?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir, I certainly will, but I think it would be improper for me to comment until the boards have had a chance of considering the position.

  PRISONERS OF WAR AND CIVILIAN INTERNEES, FAR EAST
  Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any further proposal has been made to the Japanese Government for the despatch of relief supplies to prisoners of war and internees in the Far East.
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir. On 8th May a proposal for the despatch of Red Cross relief supplies to the Far East by a western route was communicated by the Swiss Minister at Tokyo to the Japanese Government on behalf of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Government of India. The Japanese Government were asked to permit one freight steamer, manned by a neutral crew and operating under the auspices of the International Red Cross, to carry from an agreed port, to a port or ports on the perimeter of Japanese-controlled territory, foodstuffs and medicines for British, United States and Netherlands prisoners of war and civilian internees. It was suggested that on the return journey the ship could carry special supplies to interned Japanese nationals in Allied hands. The Japanese Government were asked to specify the port in the Far East to which this ship should proceed and the routes to be followed. A second ship would be placed at the disposal of the Japanese Government for the onward carriage, under safe-conduct, of the relief supplies delivered by the first ship, to those areas where prisoners of wax and civilian internees are held. No reply has yet been received from the Japanese Government to this proposal.

  ITALY (PROVISIONAL GOVERNMENT)
  Sir Richard Aclandasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement on the

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  recent changes in the Provisional Government of Italy.
  Mr. Eden: Soon after the capture of Rome the head of the Italian Government, Marshal Badoglio, went to Rome, with the permission of the Allied authorities, to discuss a further broadening of his Government with those leaders of the Democratic parties who had stayed in Rome. However, these leaders were unwilling to serve under the Marshal. A Government was, therefore, formed under Signor Bonomi, a former Prime Minister of pre-Fascist Italy. This Government, having given the necessary guarantees of collaboration with the Allies, has now assumed office.
  Sir R. Acland: Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether this Government is now functioning as a Government, and can he comment on certain statements that it has, so to speak, evaporated and is not really functioning as a Government?
  Mr. Eden: As far as I am aware, it has not evaporated. Certain undertakings of collaboration were, of course, required. These, I understand, have been given.
  Mr. Ivor Thomas: Is it proposed to increase the territory under the control of this Government?
  Mr. Eden: That depends on the progress of operations and matters of that kind.

  DARDANELLES (GERMAN SHIPS)
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to make a further statement regarding the passage of German naval ships through the Dardanelles by permission or with the acquiescence of the Turkish Government.
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir. The Turkish Government have given orders that passage of all K.T. and Ems type vessels through the Straits shall be refused in future. Furthermore, all German merchant vessels which arrive in the Straits will henceforth be carefully examined to establish whether they are in fact merchant vessels. Assurances to this effect have been given both to His Majesty's Ambassador at Angora and publicly in an official Turkish communiqué. I should like to take this op-
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  portunity to express the satisfaction felt by His Majesty's Government with this action by the Turkish Government.
  Sir T. Moore: While congratulating my hon. Friend on his further success, may I ask him whether we may assume that our Ally and others now recognise that an alliance with Britain is a privilege, but involves fulfilling obligations as well as receiving benefits?
  Mr. Eden: That is a wide definition which I should rather like to look at. On the face of it, it sounds rather good to me.

  FORMER AUSTRIAN LEGATION, ROME
  Mr. G. Straussasked the Secretary of Sate for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information about the hoisting of the Austrian flag over the Austrian Legation in Rome by Baron von Berger-Waldenegg and the taking over of the legation by this gentleman; and whether this was done with the support or approval of the Allied authorities.
  Mr. Eden: I understand that the report that Baron von Berger-Waldenegg has occupied the former Austrian Legation in Rome and hoisted the former Austrian flag is correct. This occurred without the knowledge of His Majesty's Government and has not their approval. Steps have been taken to bring the views of His Majesty's Government to the notice of the Allied authorities on the spot.

  PRISONERS OF WAR (TRANSFER)
  Mr. Lipsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what progress has been made in the negotiations for transferring to neutral countries men who had been prisoners of war for three years or longer.
  Mr. Eden: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend, the Member for Bournemouth. (Sir L. Lyle) on 3rd May to which I have at present nothing to add.
  Mr. Lipson: In view of the fact that information about these negotiations has reached the men in the camps, and they are anxiously wondering what progress has been made, can my right hon. Friend say when he hopes to make a statement?
  Mr. Eden: Unfortunately, I cannot, because it does not depend on me. It depends on the other parties in the negotiations.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Disembarkation Leave
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Air what are the difficulties of accommodation which make it necessary to grant officers longer periods of disembarkation leave than non-commissioned officers who have been on the same training courses in Canada.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): Officers and airmen arriving in this country from training in Canada cannot always be accommodated immediately owing to shortage of space at the reception centre, which is particularly acute in the case of officers. When this happens it is necessary to extend disembarkation leave which, in normal circumstances, is the same for both officers and airmen. Further accommodation, with larger officer accommodation, has recently been provided and will, I hope, result in easing the difficulties to which I have referred.

    Pay and Allowances
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Air if consideration has been given to the anomalies arising from the recent revision of pay and allowances; and if he can now make any further statement.
    Sir A. Sinclair: I presume that the hon. Member has in mind the various minor points which were left over for examination following the recent discussions with certain hon. Members on the subject of Service pay and allowances. A statement on these matters on behalf of the Government will be made shortly.
    Mr. Driberg: Before any final decisions are taken on the particular anomalies in the R.A.F., will the right hon. Gentleman consider the arguments which will be put to him in the Adjournment Debate which is being initiated next week by the hon. and gallant Member for Darwen (Captain Prescott)?
    Sir A. Sinclair: That, I think, deals with a different question, but of course any argument brought forward will be taken into consideration.
    Captain Prescott: His duties permitting, will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to be present at that Debate?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Yes, duties permitting.

  PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE (MERCHANT SEAMEN)
  Sir R. Aclandasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport if he will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the steps which have to be taken by an individual merchant seaman who wants to be registered and/or to appoint a proxy under the Parliament (Elections and Meetings) Act, 1943.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker): Yes, Sir, I will gladly circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the information asked for by my hon. Friend.

  OMNIBUSES ("PAY-AS-YOU ENTER" SYSTEM)
  Mr. Ivor Thomasasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he is aware of the system in use on the Cardiff trolley-buses known as "Pay-as-you-enter," whereby passengers put one penny into a transparent container on entering the vehicle as prepayment for any journey; and whether, in view of the saving of time, tickets and temper involved, he will consider an extension of this system to other areas.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I have noted with interest the form of the "Pay-as-youenter" system of collecting omnibus fares which is in use on certain routes in Cardiff, and to which my hon. Friend refers. The method of collecting fares, however, is settled by each undertaking for itself, and I have, therefore, no power to secure the extended use of this system.
  Mr. Thomas: Could my hon. Friend draw the attention of the various authorities to the advantages of this system?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Frankly, I doubt whether it is capable of any wide extension. It would profoundly affect the economic basis of any undertaking which adopted it, and, in many cases, it might Co so adversely.
  Colonel Sir Arthur Evans: Has the hon. Gentleman received any official complaint in reference to the system in Cardiff?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Not that I am aware of.

  MINISTRY OF INFORMATION

    Operations, Europe (German Propaganda)
    Mr. Tinkerasked the Minister of Information if he will consider, either by leaflet or broadcasting, making it known to all other countries some of the statements made by Germany about the impossibility of the United Nations making a successful invasion in Europe, and compare it with what has happened since.
    The Minister of Information (Mr. Brendan Bracken): I can assure my hon. Friend that we rubbed this point in, in every way we could.

    Members of Parliament (Fees)
    Commander Sir Archibald Southbyasked the Minister of Information whether he has further considered the undesirability of Members of Parliament drawing money payments from his Ministry for services rendered; whether he is prepared to discontinue such payments; and will he publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of such Members as have, in fact, been so paid.
    Mr. Bracken: I am grateful to the hon. Members who have contributed articles for the use of the Ministry of Information. Their remuneration has been austere, as is expected of a Government Department. However, I have decided that no further invitations will be issued to Members to write for the Ministry. The House is rightly jealous of its independence of the Executive. And, although it was perfectly legal for hon. Members to provide the Ministry with articles, I feel I should embarrass them were I to continue calling on their aid. In reply to the last part of the Question, I must correct the answer I gave my hon. and gallant Friend on 7th June. A search of records right back to the beginning of the war shows that payments for such services have been made to 29 Members in all. I am circulating the names in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Sir A. Southby: Can my right hon. Friend say whether any of the Members who received payment from the Ministry of Information, took part in Debates, or
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    voted on questions concerning the Ministry of Information; and, if so, did they then disclose their interest in the Department?
    Mr. Bracken: In all the Debates on the Ministry of Information in this House, every Member showed great interest in the Department; but I cannot answer the question without notice.
    Mr. Driberg: Is it not the case that among the hon. Members concerned are some who have been most critical of the right hon. Gentleman's Ministry?
    Mr. Bracken: There can be no question about that. If I may adapt the words of Gibbon, "I sigh as a Minister, but I obey as a Member."
    Mr. Bellenger: Is not the hon. and gallant Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) one of those who shared in the Ministry's largesse?
    Mr. Bracken: The word "largesse" does not really describe the situation, but the hon. and gallant Member for Epsom did not honour us with his services.
    Mr. Ivor Thomas: Is there any difference between Members receiving payments from the Ministry of Information and Members who have retired from the Navy receiving payment from the Admiralty for services rendered?
    Mr. Bracken: Yes, there is a very great difference.
    Following are the names:

    Major S. V. T. Adams.

    Right Hon. A. V. Alexander.

    Lady Apsley.

    Vernon Bartlett.

    A. Beverley Baxter.

    Captain F. J. Bellenger.

    Aneurin Bevan.

    A. C. Bossom.

    Commander R. T. Bower.

    Right Hon. J. R. Clynes.

    T. E. N. Driberg.

    Right hon. Walter E. Elliot.

    Colonel Sir Ian Fraser.

    L. D. Garnmans,

    Miss Megan A. Lloyd George.

    James Griffiths.

    A, P. Herbert.

    Hon. Quintin Hogg.

    A. Creech Jones.

    Commander Stephen King-Hall.

    The late Right Hon. George Lansbury.

    J. J. Lawson.

    Kenneth M. Lindsay.

    Hon. Harold G. Nicolson.

    Major Right Hon. Sir Archibald Sinclair.

    Dr. Edith Summerskill.

    Ivor Thomas.

    Miss Irene M. B, Ward.

    Arthur Woodburn.

    Italian Patriot Activity (Publicity)
    Sir Richard Aclandasked the Minister of Information whether he will take steps to secure wider publicity in this country for the part played by regular and irregular Italian forces operating behind the German lines in Italy, and particularly for the communiques issued on this subject by or through General Alexander's headquarters.
    Mr. Bracken: The Press are well aware of the value of these activities, and can be relied on to give them their fair share of publicity.
    Sir R. Acland: I appreciate that the Minister cannot compel anybody to give such publicity; but he has certain influence, and will he try to influence the Press to give greater prominence to these communiqués?
    Mr. Bracken: I am not going to try to influence the Press. In the first place, they would be foolish to accept suggestions from me, and, secondly, editors can run their papers without outside interference.

    American Troops (Visits to Government Departments)
    Mr. John Dugdaleasked the Minister of Information whether arrangements can be made for parties of American troops on leave to visit Departments under the control of the Government or local authorities.
    Mr. Bracken: At the present time operational and security requirements prevent our arranging tours of the kind suggested by the hon. Member. We shall bear his suggestion in mind when tours again become possible, but we have no intention of shepherding American troops round Government Departments unless they are keen to go.
    Mr. Dugdale: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, strange though it may seem to hon. Members, some of the American troops are very interested in Government Departments, and that, although operations are going on, there are many American troops, not now in Normandy, who are on leave, and who might like to go round Government Departments?
    Mr. Bracken: I am aware that many American troops are in London on leave
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    at present, but I have not heard of any who want to visit Government Departments. At any rate, I do not know of any who want to go to the Ministry of Information.

  TELEPHONE SERVICE (POST-WAR PLANS)
  Viscount Hinehingbrookeasked the Postmaster-General whether he will make a statement on his post-war plans for an improved telephone service; and whether such plans include automatisation of the trunk services and the provision of radiotelephone links to air, railway and coastal shipping services.
  The Postmaster-General (Captain Crookshank): The post-war reconstruction plans of the Post Office comprise all the items mentioned in the Question. Generally, it is hoped to secure a substantially increased development of the telephone services in this country after the war, but during the initial post-war years the rate of development will necessarily be governed by the availability of building accommodation for new exchanges, and, to some extent, by priorities in regard to the supply of labour and materials.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS CHAMBER (MICROPHONES)
  Mr. Petherickasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works if he is satisfied with the loud speakers which have been installed experimentally in the Chamber; and whether he proposes to issue instructions that they shall now remain.
  Mr. Hicks: From inquiries I have made, the experiment appears to have been considered satisfactory, but, before the installation is made permanent, I should be glad if Members could let me have any further comments.

  PREFABRICATED HOUSES (FILM)
  Mr. Donald Scottasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works if he will consider the production of a documentary cinema film showing the prefabricated temporary steel house, which could be shown, with a suitable commentary, to large sections of the community throughout the country.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Hicks): Films of the house have been shown on the news reels, with commentaries, but I am grateful to the hon. Member for his suggestion of a special film, and the matter is being given consideration.
  Mr. Scott: While thanking my hon. Friend for his very satisfactory reply, might I ask whether he will consider doing the interior "shots" in technicolour, if possible?
  Mr. Hicks: I will consider that.

  ROYAL NAVY

    Statistical Officer (Dismissal)
    Mr. Craven-Ellisasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the reason for the dismissal of a statistical officer, whose name has been furnished to him, who was appointed to organise a statistical section of A.M.R. department of the Fleet Air Arm.
    The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. A. V. Alexander): It became clear early in this officer's probationary period that he was unsuited to the duties for which he had been entered, and his appointment was terminated at one month's notice, in accordance with his letter of appointment.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the officer in question was never given any statistical work, which was the job for which he was appointed?
    Mr. Alexander: I am not aware of that.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the matter, so that this officer may have a square deal?
    Mr. Alexander: I have no reason to suppose that he did not.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that——
    Mr. Speaker: We cannot spend all this time on one individual case.

    Salvage Operations, Bristol Channel
    Mr. Neil Macleanasked the First Lord of the Admiralty if the salving of the ss. "Bobie," which was sunk in the Bristol Channel by H.M. minesweeper "Andelle," was undertaken or authorised by the Admiralty; how long
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    the salvage operations lasted; what was the cost of the operations, and how much was realised from the sale of the scrap; and whether he is satisfied that the work was carried out in the shortest possible time.
    Mr. Alexander: The removal of the wreck of the "Bobie" was undertaken by the Admiralty, acting as contractors to the Great Western Railway Company, who, as the harbour authority, with jurisdiction over the area in which the wreck lay, decided to have it removed as an obstruction to navigation. The operation lasted 33 days, including II days lost owing to weather conditions, and I am satisfied that there was no avoidable delay. The cost was£13,470 135. 6d., in addition to which there were expenses incurred directly by the railway company. I regret, however, that I have no information regarding the latter expenses nor as to the sum realised by the Great Western Railway Company by the sale of the wreck.
    Mr. Maclean: Does the First Lord not consider that this is a very excessive price to pay for the salvaging of a small ship, and that it could have been done very much more cheaply by an expert firm of salvage operators? [HON. MEMBERS: "Private Enterprise."] Those who were doing it for the Admiralty were doing it in a private enterprise manner, which caused a lot of delay.
    Mr. Alexander: I do not share the view put forward by my hon. Friend. In fact, the very great experience of the Admiralty, which has resulted in the salvaging of hundreds of hundreds of thousands of pounds' worth in this war, proves the contrary.

  COLONIAL EMPIRE

    Annual Reports
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will consider the issue of an annual statement, covering the work of his Department and the developments and progress made in the Dependencies.
    Sir Robert Rankinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the changed war situation in relation to most of the Colonial Empire territories, whereby increased attention is

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    being given to social, economic and political development, and as there are now information officers in many of the Colonies, it will in future be possible to arrange for the issue of a statement to accompany the Estimates, as provided in 1937–38; and whether publication of the Annual Colonial Reports and the Economic Survey of the Colonial Empire can be resumed, in order to provide more up-to-date information.
    The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Colonel Oliver Stanley): I agree with the hon. Gentlemen in wishing that as much information about the Colonies should be made available to the public as is practicable in present circumstances. I have, therefore, arranged for the publication in the last year of a considerable number of documents. Colonial Governments are, however, still preoccupied with numerous and urgent war tasks, particularly in regard to production, and the shortage of staff in the Colonial Services is very critical. There is the utmost difficulty in finding the staff to carry out central planning for social and economic development, and I regret that I cannot at present see my way to laying upon Colonial Governments the additional burden involved in the collection of the information and statistics which would be required for an annual report by myself, or for annual reports by Colonial Governments.
    Mr. Creech Jones: May we have an assurance that, in the least possible time, such reports, and particularly a review of the Colonial Office, will be made available for the House, because they will increase interest in the work of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's Department, and meet some of the pressing needs which have been expressed in the House?
    Colonel Stanley: I am glad to give that assurance.

    Defence Regulations (Detentions)
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will give a list of persons detained without trial in the Colonial Empire on grounds of security, but not including alien nationals of Axis countries; whether periodic returns are called for by his Department; and whether periodic reviews as to continued detention are made.
    Colonel Stanley: It would be contrary to the practice of His Majesty's Govern-
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    ment to give a list of the names of persons detained under Defence Regulations in the Colonial Dependencies equivalent to Defence Regulation 18s of the United Kingdom. All cases are reported to me as they occur, and also as they come under review by the Advisory Committees and the Governors from time to time. Governors have standing instructions to review all cases at intervals of not more than twelve months except where the weight of evidence of subversive activity or disposition of the detained person is such as clearly would require his detention for the duration of the war despite any change in local conditions, and to render therefore reconsideration nugatory. The procedure for annual review does not, however, preclude a Governor from reconsideration at any time of any cases in which the acquisition of new evidence, or a change of circumstances, or the existence of special hardships seems to warrant exceptional treatment. I will obtain from Governors a statement of the number of persons detained at the end of June, 1944; and I will make this available to the House.
    Mr. Sorensen: Could the Colonial Secretary also give particulars of those who were detained and have now been released—the total number since the war began?
    Colonel Stanley: I will certainly look into that.
    Viscount Hinehingbrooke: Will these cases come up before my right hon. and gallant Friend for consideration and review?
    Colonel Stanley: The question of review rests with the Government. The idea is to ask the Governor to reconsider the matter, but the power of review is in the hands of the Government.

    Cocoa Prices
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the prices paid to West African and West Indian cocoa growers in 1938 and 1943; the respective quantities available and purchased from those sources and for those dates; to which markets bulk supplies were allocated; whether any was destroyed in 1943; and whether any developments or changes in control are likely to take place now, or at the end of the war.
    Colonel Stanley: As the answer to the first four parts of this Question involves a number of figures, I shall circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I am not at pre-

    West African and West Indian Cocoa, 1938 and 1943.

    West Africa.

    West Indies.

    1937–1938.

    1942–3.

    1938.

    1943.

    1st October to 31st Sept.

    (1) Prices—

    (a) Gold Coast: Average£14 5s. 0d. per ton naked ex scale port of shipment.

    £13 1s. 4d. per ton naked ex scale port of shipment.

    Not available

    46s. 6d. to 66s. per 50 kilos f.o.b.

    (b) Nigeria: Average£17 10s. per ton Grade I,£17 0s. 0d. Grade II naked ex scale port of shipment.

    £13 per ton Grade I,£2 10s. Grade II naked ex scale port of shipment.

    (2) Quantities available—

    (a) Gold Coast: 230,000 tons

    207,000 tons

    26,088 tons

    Figures not available.

    (b) Nigeria: 85,000 tons

    110,000 tons

    (3) Quantities purchased—

    Total available

    Total available

    Total available

    Total available

    (4) Allocation of exports—

    About 1/3rd to U.K. and Dominions; under 1/2 to rest of Europe and other markets; remainder to U.S.

    About 3/5ths of quantities shipped to U.K. and Dominions nearly 1/3rd to U.S.; balance to other destinations including U.S.S.R.

    Approx. 1/3rd to U.S. 1/4 to Canada; 1/8 to U.K.; balance to Europe, S. Africa and Australasia.

    Bulk to U.S. and Canada; small quantities to U.K.

    (5) Quantity destroyed—Nil

    Approx. 60,000 tons

    Nil

    Nil

    Nutrition Policy
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether further action is being taken by his office in the matter of malnutrition in the Colonies; and whether he can make a statement on plans and policy.
    Colonel Stanley: Yes, Sir. For some years now Nutrition Committees have been functioning in a large number of Colonies and many of them have done valuable work. Following on the resolutions of the Hot Springs Conference I communicated further with Colonial Governments as to their nutrition policy. Also the Medical Research Council have recently formed a Human Nutrition Research Unit which, under the direction of Dr. B. S. Platt, is engaged in investigations on Colonial nutrition and is offering hospitality for study and research to nutrition workers from the Colonies. The unit will also be ready to advise Colonial Governments on technical questions and its formation is a first step towards a wider organisation which, it is hoped, will in-
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    sent in a position to make any statement regarding the last part of the Question.
    Following are the figures:
    clude both teaching and research in its scope. I hope also that in the near future Dr. Platt will again visit certain Colonial territories for the purpose of investigating the position and advising on future plans.

    West Indian Conference
    Mr. John Dugdaleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether His Majesty's Government intends to implement any of the recommendations of the West Indian Conference and, if so, which.
    Colonel Stanley: I have no doubt that it will be possible to implement many of these recommendations, but an answer to the second part of the Question must await first the receipt of the views of the British West Indian Governments with which Sir Frank Stockdale, as Chairman of the Conference, is in communication on this matter and, thereafter, consultation with the United States Government, since many of the recommendations involve joint action in or covering British and United States territories.

    Hot Springs Conference (Resolutions)
    Mr. John Dugdaleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what action has been taken within the Colonial Empire to carry out the recommendations of the Hot Springs Conference.
    Colonel Stanley: His Majesty's Government undertook to commend the resolutions of the Hot Springs Conference to the Governments of the Colonies, Dependencies and Overseas Territories. This has been done and replies have been received from nearly all the Governments concerned. The general sense of the replies is that the Governments accept the broad aim of the resolutions and the obligation to give effect to them in so far as they are applicable in local conditions. I am afraid I could not enter into details within the scope of a reply to a Question, but I may mention that the implementation of the resolutions of the Conference, is being considered in many of the Dependencies in connection with plans for post-war development.

    Motor Cars and Bicycles (Duty Free Import)
    Mr. Turtonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies in which African Colonies motor-cars and bicycles can at present be imported free of duty.
    Colonel Stanley: In the Gold Coast, all cars and bicycles are admitted free of duty; and in Sierra Leone cars only are so admitted under the British preferential tariff.
    Mr. Turton: Will my right hon. and gallant Friend encourage other Colonial Governments to admit motor cars and bicycles free of duty owing to the high cost of transport to the African authorities?
    Colonel Stanley: That certainly is rather a matter for them to consider and / will bring it to their attention.

  TRINIDAD

    Sugar Industry (Subsidy)
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) what is the total amount of the subsidy given this year to the sugar industry in the island of Trinidad; and what proportion of the total amount will go to the II big sugar companies and to the 14,000
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    small cane farmers, respectively; and (2) whether, in view of the heavy exependiture incurred from public revenue to subsidise the sugar industry in the island of Trinidad, the industry will be made to pay the wage increase demanded by the sugar workers' trade union.
    Mr. Thomas Fraserasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will consider attaching conditions to the payment of financial assistance to the Trinidad sugar industry to ensure adequate minimum wages for the workers, to limit the hours of labour and to require the big growers to provide improved housing for resident workers.
    Colonel Stanley: As the answer is necessarily long, I am circulating a statement in the UFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Gallacher: While I agree about reading the answer in HANSARD, I would ask the Minister if, instead of financing these companies, it is not time the Colonial Government took them over and ran them, not in the interests of profit-makers, but in the interests of the people of the area?
    Colonel Stanley: I think the hon. Member should have a talk with his hon. Friend behind him on the merits of private enterprise.
    Mr. Neil Maclean: Will the Colonial Secretary inform the House whether this is not a case of the Government having to finance private enterprise?
    Following is tire statement:
    Particulars of the subsidy payable to the sugar industry in Trinidad this year were given in the answer to the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Thomas Fraser) on 7th June. I regret that I have no information as to the proportion of the total amount of this assistance which will go to the sugar companies and to the small cane farmers respectively but I will ask the Acting Governor to furnish these details. The whole object of this assistance is to improve the efficiency of the industry, which has been affected by war conditions, and to encourage the return to it of workers to meet the present urgent demand for increased production. The industry is being required to adopt the principle of payment of output bonuses to workers as a condition of the grant of assistance; but to compel them to grant a

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    wage increase would not necessarily achieve the object in view, since experience has shown that there is a general tendency amongst workers to reduce the number of days worked if higher rates are paid. The report of the local committee called attention to the need for improved housing and suggested that the output bonus might be issued in the form of housing certificates, to be used in purchasing houses in a subsidised housing scheme. In present circumstances the Government of Trinidad were not able to make this a condition of the grant of assistance.

    Employment
    Mr. Thomas Fraserasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware of the deep concern in Trinidad at the growth of unemployment following on the completion of the work on the American bases; and whether plans are afoot to absorb the labour becoming redundant.
    Colonel Stanley: The Government of Trinidad is fully aware of the need to deal by all available means with the situation resulting from the release of labour from the United States base. Over 3,000 workers have been absorbed by local food production alone and the process continues. Agriculture generally, and the sugar industry in particular, are still in a position to offer employment. The number of workers who have so far registered as unemployed has been small. The Government have a considerable works programme in hand which should meet demands for employment which are expected later. That programme depends on supplies of material and equipment which the Trinidad Government are making every effort to obtain.
    Mr. Fraser: Do I understand the Minister to say that the unemployment problem in Trinidad is not giving cause for alarm?
    Colonel Stanley: I said that the number of workmen who have been registered was so far small. The hon. Member will realise that they have behind them a continuous period of employment at good wages and, for that reason, they have not registered.
    Sir A. Evans: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that sugar production in the island of Trinidad has fallen by approximately half, owing to the shortage of labour, and that, even
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    to-day, they are short of about 12,000 or 15,000 for the production of sugar alone?

  WEST AFRICA

    Patent Medicine Advertisements
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what control exists in the West African Colonies respecting the advertisement and sale of drugs for which misleading and extravagant claims are made and high prices charged; and what was the value of patent medicines of all characters imported into West African Colonies in 1942–43.
    Colonel Stanley: Legislation exists in Nigeria, the Gold Coast and Sierra Leone which prohibits the holding out, or recommendation of cures for venereal diseases or of aphrodisiacs, under penalty of six months imprisonment or a fine of 5o or both. As regards the second part of the Question, separate figures are not available for patent medicines, but the value of medicines and drugs imported into West Africa during the years 1942 and 1943 was 299,279 and£394,398 respectively.
    Mr. Sorensen: May I ask whether any steps have been taken in regard to such advertisements, a copy of which I sent to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, regarding brain powders and other noxious things of that kind?
    Colonel Stanley: Yes, Sir, as I informed the hon. Member, I have taken the case up with the Governor to see what can be done. We must be very careful to see that no action whatever is taken to interfere with ordinary political freedom.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the Minister aware that this is a very obnoxious kind of private enterprise, and, at least, in this respect, does he not agree that some action should be taken?
    Colonel Stanley: Yes, I agree with the hon. Member that advertisements of this kind, to ignorant people, can be very harmful indeed, and I will discuss with the Governor what action can be taken.
    Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward: Are not the vast majority of the drugs for which there is a keen demand in the West African Colonies, produced locally?
    Colonel Stanley: That is so.
    Mr. Sorensen: Are not the brain powders produced here?

    Nigeria (Dismissed Students, Conscription)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why eight of the boys of King's College, Nigeria, who were unsuccessfully prosecuted by their headmaster for a breach of the peace, were conscripted for the Army; if he will state the cause of the death of one of these boys; and why the senior boarders have not been readmitted to the school.
    Colonel Stanley: As the answer is necessarily rather long, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman sure that he has not given the wrong reply to the Question? Surely, Question 37 does not require a long reply?
    Colonel Stanley: I thought the hon. Member was interested in the case and therefore I am giving him a full answer.
    Following is the answer:
    The eight boys in question were dismissed for refusing to obey the orders of the principal. Although of military age and liable for conscription, they had not previously been considered for military service in the interests of their studies. When they were dismissed it was decided to conscript them, as the Army was in need of literate recruits. The prosecution was not of course for refusal to obey the orders of the school authorities, but for alleged subsequent disorderly conduct in a public thoroughfare. Notices to report for Army medical examination were served before the court procedure started. With regard to the second part of the Question, death was due to peritonitis. The answer to the third part of the Question is that, having considered all applications for readmission on their merits, the education authorities decided that, in the interests of discipline, readmission of the senior boarders could not be allowed. They have, however, arranged, with the co-operation of the principals concerned, for deserving students to be admitted in small groups to other secondary schools.

    Kumasi Town Council (Election)
    Mr. Turtonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many people were eligible to vote at the first election to the Kumasi Town Council that was held
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    on 21st September, 1943; and how many actually voted.
    Colonel Stanley: I am asking the Governor for the figures and will forward them to my hon. Friend.

    Gold Coast (Social Services Department)
    Mr. Turtonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what are the Junctions of the new Social Services Department which is to be set up in the Gold Coast; and what will be the duties of the seven specially selected men from the Gold Coast who are now undergoing a course of training in the United Kingdom preparatory to being posted to this Department.
    Colonel Stanley: As the Social Services Department in the Gold Coast is only just being established, its precise scope and organisation must be a matter for experiment, but the principal function of the Secretary for Social Services is to ensure effective co-ordination of the work of the different Government Departments and other agencies concerned in social welfare. A senior welfare officer has been appointed and this officer with the seven Gold Coast officers to whom my hon. Friend refers will be engaged in day to day work in such fields as probation, juvenile delinquency, youth activities, village betterment societies, and the welfare problems of rehousing schemes.
    Mr. Turton: Was this Social Services Department set up as a result of Sir Alexander Paterson's visit, or did it arise in another way?
    Colonel Stanley: No, Sir. It was no doubt discussed with him during his visit, but the Governor talked it over with me when I was out there last August.

  KENYA (NATIVE WAGES AND CONDITIONS)
  Mr. Edmund Harveyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Central Wages Board of Kenya has now fixed the minimum wages for natives employed in essential undertakings under the provisions of the Regulations; and whether he will state the wages to be paid and the conditions of service determined by the Board.
  Colonel Stanley: The Central Wages Board of Kenya has fixed as minimum

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  wages for African labour for essential undertakings 14s. for 30 standard tasks of heavy labour and 10s. for 30 standard tasks of light labour. Ration scales of carbohydrates, animal proteins, fats and sundries have been laid down for the two classes of labour. Other conditions of service such as housing and medical facilities are in accordance with the provisions of the Employment of Servants Ordinance.
  Mr. Thorne: May I ask whether the natives have a trade union so that they can protect their own interests?
  Colonel Stanley: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put that question down.
  Mr. Creech Jones: Will the Minister turn the attention of his Economic Advisory Committee on to the whole problem of race regulations in the Colonies, and, particularly, to the standards of living, and how they can be built up, because it does seem that these wage rates are pretty scandalous?
  Colonel Stanley: It is not only a matter for the Economic Advisory Committee, but the plain task of everybody connected with the Colonial Office and the Colonial Service, to see that the standards are raised, as they are admittedly low.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: Seeing that the Minister admits that the standards are low, is not that an indictment against private enterprise, which the Minister has largely supported?

  GIBRALTAR CITY COUNCIL (POWERS)
  Mr. Hugh Lawsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, by whom the powers of the city council of Gibraltar are being exercised at the present time; when it is proposed to restore these powers to the members of the council; and what proportion of this council is elected and on what franchise.
  Colonel Stanley: I understand that the powers of the city council are at present delegated by the Governor under the City Council (Suspension and Transfer of Powers) Ordinance, 1940, to one of the members of the council at the time of its suspension. No decision has yet been made regarding the date of restoration of these powers to the members of the
  188
  council. Of the nine members of the council, four are elected. A qualified elector is a male British subject of full age, not in arrears as to payment of rates, who has, during a period of not less than six months prior to 15th July in the year in which the register is prepared, occupied any land or premises in Gibraltar as owner, tenant or lodger. Persons in the service of the Crown are not entitled to be registered by virtue of occupation of free quarters.
  Mr. Lawson: While thanking the right hon. and gallant Gentleman for his reply, may I ask that, when his Department considers the powers of the council, he will see that the franchise is on a rather wider basis and that a larger proportion of members are elected?
  Colonel Stanley: I have the whole matter of the future constitution under consideration.

  WORLD PEACE PLAN (DISCUSSIONS)
  Mr. Rhys Daviesasked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government and the other Allies have been consulted by the Washington Government in framing the plan for world peace recently suggested by Mr. Roosevelt; and whether he will give an assurance that the British Parliament will have the opportunity of discussing the plan before any final decision is reached.
  The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): Ideas have been exchanged with the United States Government on this subject from time to time, and more particularly during Mr. Stettinius' recent visit to this country. Proposals on the lines indicated by President Roosevelt have been under discussion, but we have not yet reached the stage for decisions on the many questions involved. The answer to the second part of the Question is in the affirmative.
  Mr. Davies: Can my right hon. Friend say whether it is intended that all the Allies should consult together for this kind of world peace after the war is over to arrive at a joint decision which is then to be laid before the Parliaments of the several Governments? Is that the intention?
  Mr. Attlee: Perhaps my hon. Friend will put that question down.

  RAW MATERIALS (SUPPLY POSITION)
  Mr. A. Edwardsasked the Minister of Production whether he has considered the second Annual Report of the Combined Raw Materials Board, a copy of which has been sent to him, regarding an easier raw materials supply position; and if he will increase allocations of certain raw materials to manufacturers of goods for civilian consumption.
  The Minister of Production (Mr. Lyttelton): When drawing attention in its second Annual Report to the easier supply position of certain important raw materials, the Combined Raw Materials Board pointed out that this did not necessarily permit of any increase in consumption in view of other limiting factors such as man-power, shipping and plant capacity. Where circumstances permit and it would clearly not be detrimental to war production, I am always prepared, in consultation with my colleagues in other Departments concerned, to consider allocating additional material for the manufacture of goods for civilian consumption and for export. But I must point out that in present conditions no substantial increase in such manufacture can be expected.
  Mr. Edwards: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what raw materials connected with the building industry are short in supply for private building?
  Mr. Lyttelton: I must have notice of that question.

  COTTON INDUSTRY (BRITISH MISSION TO UNITED STATES)
  Sir Douglas Hackingasked the Minister of Production why the leader of the British Textile Commission returned from the U.S.A. ahead of other members; if he had made further inquiries as to whether the elimination of the cotton merchants was discussed during the visit; and when it is expected that the full Report of the mission will be received and made public.
  Mr. Lyttelton: It was not possible to provide air transport for the whole Mission, but only for two. The leader and one member, therefore, came by air ahead of the others. I am assured that the Mission did not discuss the matter referred
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  to in the second part of the Question. In reply to the last part of the Question, I have asked that every effort should be made to complete the report by the middle of next month. As my hon. Friend has already stated, I will consider the question of publication in consultation with the other Ministers concerned as soon as the report is received.

  BRITISH RESTAURANTS
  Mr. Wootton-Daviesasked the Minister of Food whether it is the policy of his Department that British Restaurants which cannot pay their way should be closed down.
  The Minister of Food (Colonel Llewellin): Yes, Sir, but only after every effort has been made to place the restaurant concerned on a self-supporting basis.
  Mr. A. Edwards: Can the Minister say what proportion of these restaurants are not self-supporting?
  Colonel Llewellin: In the last year the net number closed down was eight.
  Mr. Hugh Lawsonasked the Minister of Food if he is aware that the Skipton Urban District Council has decided not to establish a British Restaurant; if he has been informed of the reasons for this decision; and if he is satisfied that the reasons are adequate.
  Colonel Llewellin: Yes, Sir. I have been informed that the Skipton urban district council has decided not to establish a British Restaurant. As the hon. Member is aware, this responsibility rests with the local authority concerned, and I do not consider that I should intervene in this case.
  Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Has it not been the policy of the Minister, when a local authority has refused, for reasons best known to itself, to open a British Restaurant, to hold an inquiry and to establish one himself in certain areas?
  Colonel Llewelhn: No, Sir, that has not been the policy.
  Mr. Hugh Lawsonasked the Minister of Food who bore the cost of transporting the parts of a sectional hut to Skipton for the purpose of erecting a British Restaurant; and who bore the cost of their removal.
  Colonel Llewellin: The costs both of transporting the parts of the hut to Skip-ton and of removing them will be borne by the Exchequer.

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY

    Newspaper Distribution, Scotland (Public Holidays)
    Mr. Neil Macleanasked the Minister of Supply the terms of agreement made between the Circulation Managers' Committee of the Scottish Daily Newspaper Society and the retail newsagents in Glasgow regarding the handling of newspapers on all Scottish public holidays.
    The Minister of Supply (Sir Andrew Duncan): This is not a matter in which I have any responsibility, but I understand it was agreed that the newsagents in question should distribute on public holidays newspapers ordered through them.
    Mr. Maclean: Is it not the case that this committee insisted that certain newsagents in the Glasgow area who close on Scottish statutory holidays, must remain open to take in the papers; that the only holidays they permitted were Christmas Day and Good Friday; and will he see to it that no newspaper is going to lay down terms upon a body such as the newsagents and insist upon them taking papers when the whole of the town is probably on holiday?
    Sir A. Duncan: No, Sir, I have no responsibility in the matter.
    Mr. Maclean: Then who is responsible? May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has not the responsibility for the issue of newsprint to newspapers, and in that case could he not withdraw supplies from newspapers if they act in this dictatorial manner?
    Sir A. Duncan: This is entirely a local question between the newsagents and the newspaper proprietors in this area. We have responsibility, of course, for the issue of newsprint, but no responsibility at all so far down the line as this. If the hon. Member will discuss with me the point he has in mind, I may be able to guide him as to who is responsible.

    Paper Supplies (Book Publication)
    Sir T. Mooreasked the Minister of Supply what quota of paper is authorised
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    annually to each book publisher; and whether any restrictions are imposed as to its use.
    Sir A. Duncan: Publishers are allowed to acquire 40 per cent. of their consumption in the pre-war year. The only restrictions as to use are that it must be used for books and may not be transferred to another publisher without permission.
    Sir T. Moore: Is the quota really maintained if the paper has been used to disturb our political unity and so hamper our war effort?
    Viscountess Astor: Or to disturb our moral and social outlook by publishing filthy pictures?
    Sir A. Duncan: The House is aware that it is not the function of the Ministry of Supply to be censors.
    Mr. Gallacher: Can the Minister tell us why Tory Members are so anxious to advertise "Your M.P."?

  FIRE; FALKLAND ISLANDS (MAILS)
  Captain Pluggeasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what were the circumstances under which the mails from Graham Land, South Shetlands and South Georgia, were accidentally destroyed by fire in the Falkland Islands; and what arrangements are being made to enable another such mail to be collected.
  Colonel Stanley: A fire occurred in the town hall, Port Stanley, Falkland Islands, on the night of 17th April, 1944, which completely gutted the post office; and I regret to say that correspondence posted in Graham Land on 23rd March, in South Shetlands on 26th March, and in South Georgia on 4th April, 1944, lying in the post office awaiting despatch to this country, was destroyed in the fire. I am in communication with the Governor in the point raised in the second part of the Question.

  STATUTES (CONSOLIDATION)
  Mr. Keelingasked the Attorney-General whether he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the recommendations of the Statute Law Committee as to the priority in which different groups of statutes should be consolidated.
  The Attorney-General. (Sir Donald Somervell): The Statute Law Revision Committee has no authority to lay down a programme of consolidation. It did in 1938 consider what in its view were suitable subjects for consolidation. I am publishing this list in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The Statute Law on three of these subjects has since been consolidated. Although some preliminary work has been done by draftsmen during the war it has been impracticable to make any real progress with this very important work. After the war I hope it will be possible to undertake this work in a more extensive and systematic way than has been done hitherto.
  Following is the list:

  Air Navigation.

  Bastardy.

  Births and deaths registration.

  Burials.

  Church buildings and new parishes.*

  Corrupt Practices.

  Court of justiciary (Scotland).

  Court of Session (Scotland).

  Criminal Law Amendment Acts (1885, 1912, 1922, 1928).

  Crown Lands.

  Cruelty to Animals.

  Customs.

  Dangerous Drugs

  Death Duties.

  Defence Acts.

  Diseases of Animals.

  Documentary Evidence.

  Education, Scotland.

  Excise.

  Gold and Silver Plate.

  Highways, England.

  House of Commons Disqualification.

  Inclosures.

  Income Tax.

  Indictable Offences (procedure before justices).

  Juries.

  Justices.

  Limitations.*

  Local Government (Scotland).

  London Government.*

  Lunacy (England).

  Lunacy (Scotland).

  Marriage.

  Merchandise Marks.

  Merchant Shipping.

  National Debt.

  Pharmacy (the unconsolidated part of the Pharmacy and Poisons Acts).

  Police.

  Post Office.

  Prisons.

  Public Health (Scotland).

  Punishment.

  Roads and Bridges (Scotland).

  Savings Banks (Trustee and Post Office).

  Sheriff Courts (Scotland).

  Summary Jurisdiction.

  Superannuation.

  Supreme Court of judicature.

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  Supreme Court of Northern Ireland.

  Waterworks Clauses.

  Weights and Measures.

  *Consolidating Acts since passed.

  RED CROSS CIGARETTES (SALE, LISBON)
  Mr. A. Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to make a further statement on the sale of Red Cross cigarettes in Lisbon.
  The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Arthur Henderson): I have received a report about this incident and I am circulating a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following is the statement:
  Some time last year 1,750 packets of To cigarettes each, despatched by the British Red Cross War Organisation, were inadvertently included by the Portuguese Customs authorities amongst some 30,000 packets of tobacco and cigarettes forming part of a sale of apprehended goods. The packets had no outside marking indicating their British Red Cross origin. They eventually found their way into the local tobacconist shops and were placed on sale to the public. As soon as the Portuguese authorities heard that there were Red Cross cigarettes on sale they took immediate steps to recover those as yet unsold. The number of British Red Cross cigarette parcels involved was less than a quarter of one per cent. of the weekly supply sent out by the Red Cross. The publicity given to this isolated incident may have created a false impression in some quarters regarding the care taken to safeguard the Red Cross traffic by the Post Office or the Portuguese authorities. Losses of British Red Cross parcels owing to pilferage or similar causes are insignificant and I would like to take this opportunity of expressing the gratitude of His Majesty's Government for the immense amount of trouble and care exercised by the Portuguese Customs and Post Office officials in handling the enormous quantities of Red Cross supplies of all kinds passing through Lisbon.

  BRITISH ARMY

    Discharged Personnel (Insurance Benefit)
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Secretary of State for War what provision is made for the maintenance of a soldier and his

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    dependants when he has been discharged on grounds of ill-health not attributed to his military service and when he is too unwell to follow any employment.
    Mr. A. Henderson: Soldiers on discharge are credited with full contributions for the purposes of the National Health Insurance and Contributory Pensions Acts and the Unemployment Insurance Acts in respect of the period of their Army service, and if, after discharge, they are unfit for work owing to ill-health, they are eligible for benefit subject to the statutory provisions of those Acts.
    Mr. Lipson: May I ask my hon. and learned Friend to consider, with his right hon. Friend, whether, in the circumstances mentioned in the Question, pay and allowances can be made for a period of 13 weeks, as happens when a soldier has been killed, to enable his dependants to tide over a difficult period?
    Mr. Henderson: That is another question, but I will certainly examine it.
    Mr. Bellenger: Might I ask my hon. and learned Friend whether he intends his answer to convey that soldiers discharged as medically unfit come into full insurance benefit when they leave the Service?
    Mr. Henderson: What I said was that they were entitled to benefit, subject to the provisions of the Act, and that of course depends upon the circumstances.
    Mr. Belltenger: Is it not the case then that soldiers do not come into full benefit, but only receive partial benefit when they leave the Service as medically unfit?
    Mr. Henderson: I was under the impression that soldiers, in view of the fact that their contributions are kept up throughout their Service, were entitled to full benefits under the Act.
    Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Does it not mean, reduced to£ s. d., that a soldier under existinc, arrangements can receive only roughly£1 a week for himself, nothing for his wife or children, and that he must fall back on public assistance for other essential needs? Is that not the financial position?
    Mr. Henderson: The financial position is that he is in exactly the same position as any industrial worker who is in the same position as he is.

    Divorce Proceedings (Financial Help)
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Secretary of State for War what financial help is provided for men in the Forces who are compelled by circumstances to institute divorce proceedings against their wives.
    Mr. A. Henderson: No cash payments are made to these men but my hon. Friend will appreciate that the benefits of the Army Legal Aid Scheme are available for them.
    Mr. Lipson: But is my hon. and learned Friend aware that a private soldier, who found that the Army Legal Scheme functioned too slowly so far as he was concerned, has obtained a divorce, but has been asked to pay£60? As that is quite beyond his means, and most of the money goes in legal fees, could not some of those legal charges be reduced for his benefit?
    Mr. Henderson: My hon. Friend is referring to a particular case which he states is not within the Legal Aid Scheme. Perhaps he will let me have particulars.
    Mr. Lipson: I have sent them to my hon. and learned Friend.
    Mr. Turton: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman make it quite clear that no soldier is compelled to take divorce proceedings?

  SCHOOL CHILDREN (WAGE-EARNING EMPLOYMENT)
  Viscountess Astorasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, if his Department has conducted an investigation into the effect of wage-earning employment on the health and stamina of schoolchildren; and will he ask for a report from school medical officers of appropriate selected areas.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake): My right hon. Friend has asked all local authorities for full information, including their views on the effect of employment on the health of the children. I have no doubt that local authorities will consult their school medical officers on this point.
  Viscountess Astor: Would the local authorities consult the teachers in the schools as well as the medical officers?
  Mr. Peake: I have no doubt that they will do so. We have issued a most compendious circular asking for information upon all aspects of this problem.
  Mr. Edmund Harvey: Is it proposed to issue a White Paper dealing with the result of the information obtained?
  Mr. Peake: I think we had better see what the information is, before we decide what further action to take.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (APPOINTMENTS)
  Mr. Bellengerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish a list of all whole-time or part-time appointments which are made on his nomination from outside the Civil Service or on which he must be consulted.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Assheton): I have been asked to reply. My right hen. Friend is not clear as to the nature of the information which my hon. Friend wants. Perhaps he would explain to my right hon. Friend what he has in mind.
  Mr. Bellenger: May I take this opportunity of explaining to the House, by asking my right hon. Friend whether he will supply in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of those individuals, outside the Civil Service, who have to be appointed or nominated by the Chancellor for positions analogous to those undertaken by civil servants?
  Mr. Assheton: I will certainly consider that.

  OCCUPIED TERRITORIES (CURRENCY)
  Miss Wardasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the financial arrangements made for the population in the countries which have been occupied by the Allies since the outbreak of war; and whether there has been any variation of the policy with regard to France.
  Mr. Assheton: Special military currency is being used in Italy, Sicily and certain of the ex-Italian colonies. It was used for a short time in French North Africa, but was thereafter replaced by local francs. As regards Metropolitan France, I would refer the hon. Lady to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave yesterday to my hon. Friend the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander).
  Mr. Graham Whiteasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the arrangements which have been made for the redemption of the military franc notes now being issued and to be issued in French liberated territory.
  Mr. Assheton: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave my hon. Friend the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) yesterday on this matter.
  Mr. Graham White: May I ask my right hon. Friend, without wishing to anticipate the statement promised yesterday, whether he would now like to assure the House that financial commitments were not entered into, before arrangements were made for the redemption of the notes?
  Mr. Assheton: I am afraid I cannot add anything to what was said by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  Mr. Edgar Granville: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the military franc notes are now being issued in France?
  Mr. Assheton: I have already given my hon. Friend the only answer I can give.

  BRITISH OVERSEAS INVESTMENTS (IMPORT POLICY)
  Mr. Wootton-Daviesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will instruct his financial and economic advisers to consider the adoption of procedure under which imports into Great Britain from countries which have defaulted on British investments or which endeavour to liquidate British organisations on unfair lines, will be proportionately restricted until improvement in their methods is manifested.
  Mr. Assheton: It is the policy of His Majesty's Government to give full support to British holders of overseas investments, but, generally speaking, I think that our import policy has to be decided primarily on the basis of other considerations. At present, imports into this country are limited to those essential to the successful prosecution of the war.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I would like to ask the Leader of the House whether he has considered the question of extending the time for to-day's Debate on the White Paper on Employment? There is a very large amount of interest in this question and possibly he might consider whether to-morrow—the middle day of the Debate—he could allow an extension of time, in order to give an opportunity to a very large number of Members to take part in the Debate who otherwise will not be able to do so?
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): I am always ready to consider these matters but I rather hope it will not be necessary. We have allotted three days to this discussion, and there is only one Ministerial speech on each day, which hon. Members who are conversant with our peace-time habits may consider to be an innovation, perhaps even a welcome innovation. There is a great deal of time allotted and I think we should see how we get on to-day, and then I will consider the matter.
Mr. Tinker: On our side especially, the question of unemployment is important. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why your side? "] Because it has been our chief interest for a long time. Other people have not been affected like we have.
Mr. Kirkwood: Unemployment means starvation to our people.
Mr. Tinker: Will the right hon. Gentleman give due consideration to satisfying as many hon. Members as possible who want to speak?
Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: Will the right hon. Gentleman not commit himself against the proposal at the moment, until he has taken advice through the usual channels?
Mr. Eden: I said I would like to see how we get on to-day. I fully understand that hon. Members, on all sides of the House, are very deeply interested in the subject, none more than another.
Mr. Shinwell: Does my right hon. Friend realise that this is not like a Bill presented in the House, which goes through various subsequent stages?. We have been assured that the Government are anxious to ascertain the views of the
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House on the important proposals, contained in the document. Will he therefore give the matter very careful consideration?
Mr. Eden: Certainly, Sir. It was with that in mind that we gave three days and arranged that there should be only one Ministerial speech each day. It is not like a Bill, and we want the views of the House on this matter.
Mr. A. Bevan: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the special practice now of calling a Minister, then a person from this side and then a person from the other side, so that each day, although we have no Amendment on the Order Paper except one, we have in fact three people each day, who can only be described as making Ministerial statements?
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member appears to be making a reflection on the Chair.
Mr. Bevan: No, Sir. I beg pardon, but I think I am within the recollection of the House. I was referring to what, in fact, has happened on previous occasions, and when the right hon. Gentleman says that only one Ministerial speech is to be made each day, as there is no Amendment on the Order Paper it is difficult to see where the opposition is coming from. I was hoping that perhaps some consideration could be given to back benchers.
Mr. Gallacher: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he would get Members to study yesterday's OFFICIAL REPORT and base their speeches on the length of time taken yesterday? In that case, all Members who wish to do so will have an opportunity of speaking.

PERSONAL EXPLANATION
The Minister of Production (Mr. Lyttelton): Mr. Speaker, may I with your permission make a brief personal explanation? I feel that an explanation is due to the House of some words that I used in addressing the American Chamber of Commerce yesterday. I was trying, in a parenthesis, to make clear the gratitude which this country feels for the help given to us in the war against Germany, before Japan attacked the United States. The words I used, however, when read

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textually, and apart from the whole tenor of my speech, seemed to mean that the help given us against Germany provoked Japan to attack. This is manifestly untrue. I want to make it quite clear that I do not complain of being misreported, and any misunderstanding is entirely my own fault. I ask the House to believe, however, that the fault was one of expression and not of intention. I hope this apology will undo any harm that the original words may have caused here or in the United States.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Derwent Valley Water Board to construct new waterworks and to acquire lands; to make provision for the protection of the gathering ground of the new waterworks; to confer further powers upon the Board; and for other purposes." [Derwent Valley Water Bill [Lords.]
And also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Ascot District Gas and Electricity Company to acquire certain lands compulsorily; and for other purposes."[Ascot District Gas and Electricity Bill [Lords.]

AGRICULTURE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL
That they concur in the Resolution of the Commons, communicated to them yesterday, namely: That it is expedient that the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill be committed to a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons.
ASCOT DISTRICT GAS AND ELECTRICITY BILL [Lords]
Read the First time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
DERWENT VALLEY WATER BILL [Lords]
Read the First time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

EMPLOYMENT POLICY
The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Bevin): I beg to move,
"That this House takes note of Command Paper No. 6527 on Employment Policy and welcomes the declaration of His Majesty's Government accepting as one of their primary aims and responsibilities the maintenance of a high and stable level of employment after the war."
I think that this Motion is one of the most important that has been debated in this Assembly for many years. It embodies the most important principle that has come before the House for a very long period. In laying down that it is the primary responsibility of the Government to maintain a high and stable level of employment, we are turning our back, finally, on past doctrines and past conceptions and looking forward with hope to a new era. Unemployment has been the subject of many Debates in this House. We have had many marches of the unemployed.
Mr. Gallacher: And good marches, too.
Mr. Bevin: The hon. Member may have enjoyed them but the unemployed have not. We have had these marches of hungry men, demonstrating their poverty in a highly civilised society, during a century in which wealth has accumulated at a rate unprecedented in the history of the world. From 1886, when the late John Burns led the London unemployed through Pall Mall, onwards to the Northampton bootmakers, right down to the miners, between the two wars, we have had this horrid spectacle of unemployed men, not refusing to work, but asking that society should so organise itself that work might be provided and their families maintained. During that period, all through the end of the 19th century and the first part of the 10th, there were tremendous agitation and disturbance. It is difficult to convince a great many people that, prior to the introduction of the employment exchanges and unemployment insurance, unemployment did not exist to the extent that it did afterwards. It did, but it was not known. Statistical knowledge was not available, and the public was not aware of the intense suffering that ensued. But during that period the House of Commons and the country became conscious, and realised that the
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State could not be inactive when faced with the evils arising from mass unemployment.
If we take the period from the seventies right up to the outbreak of this war, we have only had really full employment under three conditions—the making of armaments for impending war, during war, or on the discovery of more gold fields and the expansion of credit. On other occasions, unemployment in cycles has arisen from time to time. The problem became so acute that the State had to decide to introduce social services, and an attempt was made, following on the work, which I am sure the House has been pleased to see honoured, even late in the day, of Sidney Webb and Mrs. Webb in the break-up of the Poor Law, to regularise assistance in its various forms. It was followed by new measures, which were tried out during the, depression. There were a tentative public works policy, training, transference schemes and, lastly, the Special Areas. But all these were merely measures to minimise the effect of unemployment, not a recognition that unemployment was and is a social disease, which must be eradicated from our social life. The State's job up to this date has been to deal with the after-effects of the disease, and not to take active measures itself to promote and maintain economic health. This Motion is an assertion that, while there will still be difficulties to contend with, and the social services must continue to play their part, the first consideration must be the way to remove the cause. Having tried relief in all its forms, we now propose to diagnose, and we hope to cure.
The Government welcome the fact that Parliament is—I hope irrespective of party, and with widespread agreement—at last facing this problem as a fundamental issue. We are, indeed, grappling with the problem which is uppermost in the minds of those who are defending the country to-day, at home, overseas, and in those bitter fights across the Channel. With my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, I had an opportunity of visiting one of our ports and seeing the men, of the 5oth Division among others, going aboard ship—gallant men, brave men with no complaint. They were going off to face this terrific battle, with great hearts and great courage. The one ques-

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tion they put to me when I went through their ranks was, "Ernie, when we have done this job for you, are we going back to the dole?"
Mr. Pickthorn: For you?
Mr. Bevin: Yes, it was put to me in that way, because they knew me personally. They were members of my own union, and I think the sense in which the word "Ernie" was used can be understood. Both the Prime Minister and I answered, "No, you are not." That answer of "No" to those brave men, going aboard those ships to fight, was an answer which, I hope, will be supported by the House, and I hope that policy will be directed towards making that answer a fact, not only for them but for future generations. There is an obligation on all of us to bend our abilities and our energies to finding the right solution, and not to dissipate energy merely in destructive criticism.
The Government have come forward not only with a statement of their objective, but with an outline of the practical measures for attaining it, which, with the support of Parliament, they intend to operate with full vigour. I am convinced that although of course Governments may change and, I hope, will change—I should not like this job for ever—any party which faces the people of this country at a General Election and refuses to accept the principle of full employment, will not be returned to this House. It may be argued that we ought to have laid down a carefully-designed blue-print, a plan worked out for every phase which might conceivably arise. But I suggest that, in a changing world, such a course is impracticable. It is in the attitude of mind, the direction of Government policy, in the whole of Civil Service, as well as Ministerial, support, that this problem must be faced with a view to adjustments being made, from time to time, in order to achieve the objective.
The Government do not claim that the White Paper is the final solution of this problem. The proposals do not raise the question, for instance, of whether industry will, for ever, be privately or publicly owned. Some say that all benefits of enterprise arise from private industry, and some say they arise from public ownership. Well, I have seen a bit of both. I have seen enterprise absent from public
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ownership and I have seen enterprise completely absent from private ownership. Therefore, the question of how you can give effect to decisions as to who will own industry, is not prejudiced by this White Paper. The proposals of the White Paper will operate, whatever the ownership of industry may be. There are those who have gone "cock-a-hoop" in certain parts of the Press, because they think that we who represent the Labour Party in the Coalition Government—and I do not apologise for it—and who have made our contribution to this White Paper, and to all the other great social changes which have come before this House, have abandoned our principle concerning what we think the right ownership for industry ought to be. What we have tried to do, is to devise a plan which, however you may decide the ownership of industry by adjustments which may have to be made, seeks to attain its objective.
The main purpose of the White Paper, and the Motion, is to declare war on unemployment, and to indicate how our resources should be harnessed for that purpose. Our monetary system, our commercial agreements, our industrial practices, indeed, the whole of our national economy, will have applied to them the acid test—Do they produce employment or unemployment? Under the system which governed our economic life from the industrial revolution onwards, unemployment and deflation were regarded, in the main, as automatic correctives for the lack of equilibrium in our financial and economic position. Incidentally, it was just 100 years ago, after the passing of the Corn Law Act and the Bank Act, that that automatic control was introduced. This meant that industry and human beings had to adapt themselves to the working of the financial system, instead of the system being adapted to the needs of the individual. The need for adjustment was thrown at industry. Revisions of rates of wages or production had to be made from time to time, very suddenly, and as a result the two sides in industry were set in conflict. Strikes and lockouts followed, there was lowered production and the national income was cut down still further. We had, moreover, to buttress the old system with our social services, as I have already indicated, and directly this was done, the automatic adjustments which were the basis of the old system could not

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be made in the way intended under the doctrines of laissez-faire. The stronger the trade unions became the more the resistance to change in money wages. With the buttress of the social services, the weapon of starvation and bankruptcy did not operate at all quickly enough to make the old system work, and it was doomed from the day when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) introduced his social services into this House.
It is worth while briefly to call attention to what had to be done between the two wars, leaving out the temporary boom, and beginning with the time when the first adjustments under deflation were made. These are very striking figures. From 1922 to 1939 we lost 250,000,000 days of production, through strikes and lock-outs alone. Over 6o per cent. of those disputes arose from the need for adjustments due either to deflation or Gold Standard adjustment, and were outside the control of industry. Therefore, you set two parties to settle a dispute that someone else had created but which they had no power to settle. That is a most unfortunate situation to create, and the way things work in arriving at it, is unjust.
I may be forgiven for referring to the General Strike, for which I have never apologised. What happened? In 1921 there was an adjustment of 40 per cent. Many of us trade union leaders had to spend three solid years in making new agreements and, when we had made them, within a year we were thrown out by 12½per cent. No industrialist in this House will get up and say that you can adjust industrial efficiency to make up 12½ per cent. in one year. No one can do it, however he may try. Yet that was thrown at us. And how was it proposed to deal with it? It was sought to take 2s. 6d. a ton off coal, which meant so much off steel, and so much off other things, all the way up through industry. And so, the people who suffered were one class of the community. I make the assertion, and this is a basic principle of this White Paper, that if either exchange or financial adjustments have to be made, they must be made over the community as a whole, not singling out one particular industry or class. [An HON. MEMBER "And by this House."] And by this House, certainly; but if the House had understood
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it, we should never have had the General Strike.
What happened? With all that loss of 250,000,000 days, wages went down, wages went up, went down again and went up again. What was the net result at the end? The change in money wages over the whole field of sheltered and unsheltered industries, which I admit did not suffer equally—the unsheltered trades suffering more than the sheltered trades and professions—was only five points. In the 17 years from 1922 to 1939, we had all these fights and struggles going on throughout the country, with all the consequent difficulties, and the adjustment was five points. I suggest that the House ought to find some better remedy than that. There will be strikes, there will be disputes, but they ought not to be on this issue, which those concerned cannot settle of themselves. In that same period of 17 years, we had an average of 1,700,000 unemployed, and we paid out a total of£1,260,000,000 in unemployment benefit and assistance. That payment helped to keep the consuming market going and, to that extent, probably prevented unemployment from being worse, but we had not a single pennyworth of production for all that expenditure. I do not think that that was good for the country. That state of affairs reflected itself in sickness. There cannot be long periods of unemployment without malnutrition and a weakening of physique; and then what did we get? During that period just over a week in every year for every man and woman in industry was lost owing to sickness. That is a terrific loss. I do not know how much of it could have been avoided, if there had been good employment, good health and a reasonable standard of living, but all of us with experience know how the one thing reacts on the other.
Another very difficult thing arises from this awful business, which I would ask every hon. Member who has had a reasonable income during all his lifetime to remember. One of the most demoralising accompaniments of unemployment is that people run into debt, which becomes a millstone around their necks. Further, if there is an average of 1,700,000 unemployed people there are not far short of about 6,000,000 people who are suffering from unemployment. The 1,700,000 are not always the same people. Therefore, over a wide area of our social life, this

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difficulty is constantly recurring, and the total loss of production and national income is incalculable. We shall be facing a very difficult situation at the end of this war, and apart from all sentiment that one might impart into this proposal, we cannot afford loss of production this time. It would be unsound economically. We shall have to carry the aged on the new pension scheme—good luck to them. We are raising the school-leaving age in order that our children may have a better chance in life. That is right, but if we are to do this, then we must employ every able-bodied man to the full and under decent conditions during the best productive part of his life.
Therefore, we are dealing with the situation through the education proposals, the health proposals, the policy of this White Paper and the housing policy, and I want the House to view it as a concerted attack, and not as being dealt with in isolation by this White Paper alone. The coming of the State into the arena, full-blooded, as is now proposed, must mean the writing of a new code of conduct for industry, a new set of rules in our economic life, which must be respected and respond to the will of Parliament, if the problem is to be solved. Let me say, in passing, that no one can look at the astonishing variety of products which we have produced during this war, without realising that they are far more varied than our production in peace, and our technical development has far outstripped anything we had done previously. What has done it? The pressure of all towards a common objective—to win victory. I ask the House whether a common objective, nationally, cannot be adopted to carry us, not only through the transition period, but into a better economic state after the war.
Mr. Gallacher: They do not like that over there.
Mr. Bevin: I am not without hope.
Dr. Haden Guest: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean a continuous Coalition?
Mr. Bevin: No, not even if my hon. Friend were a member of it. In industry there are certain standards that are accepted, and I think a new code, a wider code and a better code will have to be written for the conduct of industry generally in this country.
Mr. Bellenger: Code of what?
Mr. Bevin: A code of conduct and relationships in carrying on the business of this country. We have made great strides in this war in the way of production committees and all sorts of things. The whole thing is growing up, but it is really only beginning. It has been introduced under the pressure of war.
Now I would like to turn to the basic features of the White Paper itself. The White Paper naturally draws distinctions between the measures proposed for the aftermath of war, and those for application later when we have arrived at more stable conditions. The basic problem of the post-war period will not be the maintenance of demand and a high level of employment, but the orderly change-over of our productive capacity. There will be an enormous demand. It will outstrip supply for a time. To this I shall refer later. I propose, in the first instance, to deal with the long-term side and return to the transition period. It may be an advantage if long-term proposals are looked at with minds attuned to a normal period, because that brings out more clearly the approach to the problem on the whole economic front. It will be seen in paragraphs 39 and 41 that the Government wholeheartedly accept the proposition that total expenditure on goods and services must be maintained at the level necessary to prevent, general unemployment. This involves a complete reversal of the policy of the years between the wars, when it was held that the onset of industrial depression must be met by cuts in public expenditure and economies in all directions. Diminished purchasing power was diminished still further, and the depression thereby accentuated, with results which are only too familiar.
In future the Government's policy will be to meet the onset of any depression at an early stage by expanding and riot contracting capital expenditure, and by raising consumption expenditure and not reducing it, by such means and devices as may be found most effective. Paragraph 62 declares that this is a policy directed to the deliberate ironing-out of the slump and the boom, but that it will involve more economic control by the State than has hitherto been experienced. There are three elements to be considered in this matter; there is capital expenditure, both

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private and public; there is consumption expenditure, both private and public; and there is the foreign balance. In the case of private investment, one has to admit that this covers the greater part of the field at the present moment, because it is the most subject to fluctuations and is, admittedly, the most difficult to control. Various devices, such as variations of interest rates and that kind of thing, have some effect, but we cannot rely on that, because the policy of the Government is to maintain our policy of cheap money. That must be the set purpose and direction of our efforts. I will leave that to the Chancellor to deal with to-morrow. It is impossible to see very far ahead, but, in any case, as at present advised, cheap money is our policy.
Mr. MacLaren: It will not stop a slump.
Mr. Bevin: Nothing, by itself, will stop a slump. It is necessary to have a combination of activities to stop slumps. Private enterprise will be encouraged to follow the Government's line in timing investment. Then we want submitted for further consideration, a proposal of deferred tax credit, or similar devices. I do not object to an equalisation of Budget finance. It is not an uncommon thing to-day, in every business in the country. The practice hitherto in local authorities, and in the Government, has been to reduce taxation when we are doing well, and to increase it when we are hard up. I would rather pay it when I am doing well, than when I am hard up. There is nothing wrong in that, surely, and the fundamental principle behind this is to use every possible device, in order to check any possible slump. The public investment is more easy of control and it can be more easily organised, but if we are to encourage local authorities and public utilities to submit their plans in advance, that will involve a change of procedure in this House. One of the great troubles hitherto when these things have come upon us, and public works and other things have been advanced, has been that the procedure is so long, that the effectiveness of the thing is lost before you have your Bill through to remedy it. I submit, therefore, that in considering this matter and encouraging local authorities and
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public utilities to advance their plans and have them ready to be turned on, Parliament must adjust itself to some new procedure in order to be effective.
The idea is that these plans will be coordinated and that a target will be set each year for performance in the following year. This is not to be regarded as a public works policy, as understood in the old sense. I well remember when Ministers sent round to the Departments to show how few people could be employed in public works. The works then envisaged were either the building of a dock or the cutting of a road, but this is intended to include the whole range of public activity, using developments of all kinds—just as, when there is a slow down in industry, every wise management turns on the maintenance for the next turn of the wheel and improves the productive capacity of its undertaking. This sort of thing is being translated into this public works policy—to turn on national capital at the right moment to improve our country, and improve our health and efficiency for future developments. It is in that sense that we should use the Public Works Fund, and we want to adjust it in order to meet those ebbs and flows which are, to a very large extent, outside our control.
Mr. MacLaren: What?
Mr. Bevin: The ebbs and flows of overseas trade, harvests and such things are very largely outside Governmental control. We cannot control the harvest failure in the Argentine, or something of that kind. The Coalition can do a lot of things, but not that. Past experience has shown, however, that speed is essential, and we want to urge the House to help in carrying out this programme in that sense, and to be parties, with the local authorities, the utilities, and the Cabinet of the day, in giving effect to it. The other advantage is that it will be a continuous process. It will not be sporadic. The State will know what is needed, and will have available the plans for development which I have already mentioned. It does not mean, however, that we shall hold back every kind of public building, waiting for the slump, or waiting for the fall. Schools, hospitals and similar amenities and all urgently-needed work following the war,

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will have to be tackled, together with certain housing. I cannot enumerate every item, but there are wide developments of public enterprise far beyond these.
The second line of defence is consumption expenditure. If we are not successful in preventing a decline in capital investment, purchasing power for consumers goods will inevitably decline, and we must avoid the vicious downward spiral. It is important, at this moment, to realise that the various methods of adjusting money wages and production which have obtained in the past were very uneven in their application. I have already mentioned the effect on the export trades, when adjustments are made in coal, and it is worth repeating that the method of avoiding a fall in consumption, is one of the vital things which has a bearing on many problems, including the distribution of industry. When people tell me that there is a great population in London, with a great purchasing power, what they are really saying is that between the two wars there was not the purchasing power in certain other areas with an equal population. Therefore, the adjustment of these things, on a vast scale, has a very big effect, from the point of view of purchasing power, and a greater equilibrium over the whole area.
We venture to suggest that there might be a variation in social insurance contributions. In the past, when these events overtook us, the only way has been the cutting of wages, which affects the whole family. Contributions under the social services, as we have seen from the Beveridge proposals, will be raised, and spread over the whole community universally. After further study, it may be worth while making an actuarial calculation of which carries the greater load in good times because, if you can work it successfully, it has the effect of lowering the cost on the employer's portion, and increasing the consumption on the man's portion, by leaving greater purchasing power in his pocket. That is a device well worth studying and I hope the House will give it careful consideration. There are, of course, variations of other arrangements, which I will leave to the Chancellor tomorrow, because he is the expert on these things. I want to express very sincere thanks to the much abused Treasury officials. No one has been more helpful
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than they, in trying to evolve the plan of the change-over we are now proposing.
Mr. Shinwell: It is a change for them.
Mr. Bevin: I believe in giving credit where it is due. If we had not had the help and experience of these men who, for years, have never had very much kudos, I doubt if the papers could have been produced. Therefore, I pay my tribute to them. Of course, there will be turn-over of labour, and I hope, in the future, to devise a method which will distinguish between the ordinary turnover of labour and unemployment. I think the two things need to be segregated. I do think—and I will refer to it again in a moment—that in the social services plan, in connection with unemployment, the method of using social service benefits as a subsidy to wages, and as an excuse for inefficiency in industry itself, is wrong. It should be designed for the special purpose of unemployment, and industry must undertake the other obligations. We must treat our economy as a whole. Whatever we do internally, we cannot leave out the foreign balance and export trade. This element of our economy is largely dependent on the policies of other countries. The importance of restoring and expanding our export trade to make up for the loss of our overseas investments, is generally recognised, but Government action to this end cannot be taken in isolation I have said publicly before, that if the creative ability of the State is really brought out now, and we act as firms and individuals, governed by the great objective that I mentioned just now, the worry that might arise from the loss of overseas investments and living on interest may well be limited. I think, there is a great future for this country. It is not only going to survive in war; I believe it will survive well in its economic life.
The amount of production entering into what is called the foreign trade of the world is not a very large proportion of the world's total production and consumption. It is very small in comparison with the total production and consumption. We must have foreign trade, because the raw materials are outside our country. We must buy them, and other countries must buy goods from us, if we are to have the raw materials, and we must do so under conditions which will

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ensure that our internal economy is not brought near disaster with every storm that blows. Before the war, the number of people actually employed on what are called exports in this country, was about 2,000,000 of our total working population. Unless there is a method of insulation, there is always the danger of the whole economic structure being upset by this comparatively small number. Therefore, in association with other countries, we must try to agree on measures which will prevent the appalling fluctuations in the international price level, which characterised the years between the wars and which, if there is a reasonably stable international price level, make for expansion all over the world and give security and confidence. I am hoping that the negotiations now being carried on throughout the United Nations will lead to that end. We have wholeheartedly committed ourselves to this in the Atlantic Charter, the Mutual Aid Agreement and the Hot Springs Conference. We welcome the initiative taken in the employment field by the International Labour Organisation. Attention should be particularly directed to the resolutions passed at Philadelphia on the economic policies for the attainment of social objectives, which are broadly in line with the policy of this White Paper. Therefore, international discussions will proceed on a wide range of subjects and Parliament will be informed of their progress as in the case of the monetary proposals. There is one great field that must call for special attention, and that is the development of the Colonial Empire. It must have a proper place in our expanding overseas trade. It must be systematically organised and have as its objective the raising of the standard of life of the 66,000,000 people in the Colonies. They can gain and we can gain. It is a common effort achieving a common purpose. Success in maintaining a high level of employment at home will in itself assist the export trade. The more products sold on a good home market the more they carry the overheads and assist in a reason- able price to meet competition.
All these efforts will be nullified unless industry itself concentrates on raising its efficiency. I have noticed in the public discussions that everybody's mind turns on the efficiency of the workers. Effi-
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ciency must be meant in a broader sense than that. It is not even efficiency in the finishing end of industry or part of an industry. If you take the metallurgical industry as an example, and want to study efficiency, you must go from the raw material, coal, right up to the finished product, and see whether in each stage you have an efficient and well conducted operation, just as much as on the horizontal basis you study the product at a particular stage. When we discuss efficiency we cannot have somebody just butting in with a lot of out-of-date selling price arrangements, carrying redundant capital, paying each other levies and all the rest of it, and adding them on to the price and creating a moribund attitude to the whole development of their industries. That is not efficiency. While efficiency will be applied generally, there is the difficulty of localised unemployment. It may develop in particular industries for particular reasons. Last week there was a long discussion in the House on the distribution of industry, and I do not propose to refer to it, but perhaps I may be allowed to refer to the distribution, transfer and training of labour. Large scale transfer of labour is not, in my view, the answer to localised unemployment. Certain grave social disorders arise from it. One is that it denudes the areas concerned of their most valuable resources, their young man-power, and results in appalling waste of social capital which would be better spent on developments.
We do not, therefore, regard large scale transfers as the solution. At the same time, we must have mobility of labour; that is an essential condition. An expanding economy entails a certain degree of mobility of labour as well as of industry. I have not found in the war, given the right conditions, much difficulty in transferring labour [Interruption]. I know that difficulties have arisen from those I have taken, but there has not been much difficulty. If I had to direct people to jobs that were inferior, they very properly objected, but where the conditions have been pretty good I have not had very much trouble. There are other reasons why they may object—home reasons, and so on. I do not regard the transfer of women as I have had to do it in the war in the same category. It is a different problem altogether. One of the first things we must do is to establish training under Government auspices and no longer regard

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it as remedial action for long-term unemployment. It must be part and parcel of our economic system. It must be part of our permanent arrangements, and industrialists or anyone establishing an industry can help in this respect. I have seen works going up, and I have seen the unemployed standing about in the neighbourhood, but nobody has thought of beginning to train the unemployed while the works were actually being built. In very few cases have facilities been there, and my predecessors have had to go to the employers and say, "I have 10,000 unemployed and you must give them a preference in this area," or they have had to use persuasion, and all that kind of thing. There has been no organised attempt to have training programmes arranged in advance so that no time would be lost when the equipment and premises were ready to start up.
There will be an enormous lot to be done in that direction, and there must be a scientific approach by employers and trade unions. We must pay the trainees better than unemployment pay. It must be a step up to the full wages they will get in industry. We must have full co-operation with both sides of industry. I know how hard craft prejudices die, and there are good economic reasons for them all. If the State comes in in the development of full employment and the fears that have helped to produce these prejudices are removed, I think it is possible to get greater flexibility than we have hitherto had. One great trouble is that of housing. If a person has to move from one area to another and the only way he can get a habitation is to take up a mortgage and get his furniture on the hire-purchase system, it acts as a dead weight round him. Therefore, houses for rent are enormously important in order to get mobility of labour.
The White Paper also makes it clear that the Government's policy for maintaining expenditure cannot succeed unless there is reasonable stability of prices and wage rates. The fundamental issue is simple. It is little use injecting purchasing power to keep up the volume of employment if the additional money all goes in profit. It is equally useless if it all goes in wages and you get no production for it. If the effect of making more money available, for example, for housing, is simply to put up the price of houses and not to get more houses and more workers
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employed, the Government's policy will fail. The adjustment of wage rates must go on through the ordinary processes, but the general level ought to be related to productivity. I do not object to that principle. If we had had through the nineteenth century a rise of wages comparable to the productivity of the working people, the standard of living in this country would have been about double. The people were not organised then.
Mr. A. Bevan: This is one of the crucial points in the Whole matter. What instrument does the right hon. Gentleman intend to use to raise wages to the index of production?
Mr. Bevin: We have to discuss it with the parties and work out the methods, just as Parliament, I hope, will work out the legislation as we go along. I have not worked out the precise methods, but I have asked my trade union friends, industry and everybody to realise that this is an essential thing that must be done. If it is to be done, we have to alter the old catch-as-catch-can methods that we have had in the past. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am glad my hon. Friends behind me cheer. No one has had more throws in the wrestling system with wages than I have had, but the catch-as-catch-can method was rot always on one side. I would like to see that old system in wages go. We want to relate wages to efficient production. There are many industries which I have had the honour to represent which were on this basis. The result was that our wages came out of the sweated level up to a decent standard. The adjustment of prices will also go on, but there must be no action on the part of any sectional interest to force prices to an artificial level. The test of good management and distribution, if this scheme is to work and consumption is to be maintained, is how near the cost of production the producer, when he comes home and becomes a consumer, can buy his own goods.
We want to get rid of casualisation of labour. I will not elaborate that point now. The House knows enough about it and how demoralising it is. The less casualisation there is, the more efficiency you get in industry. As one great industrialist once said to me, "Keep a steady pressure up; by a steady pressure on wages you will make the man on top use

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his head." Nothing promotes efficiency more than a steady pressure on organised industry. Another matter that enters into this problem is the hours of labour. This, again, will need to be very carefully and scientifically studied. The growth of mechanisation makes for the right use of the organisation. If I may offer a predilection of my own, it is that if I had a choice between a few minutes off a day, or an extension of the annual holiday, I would prefer the annual holiday.
Mr. Barstow: Why not both?
Mr. Bevin: Sometimes you cannot get both.
Mr. Barstow: Certainly you can.
Mr. Bevin: That depends on the industry. When you are reducing on the one hand, you must not reduce to a point which makes it difficult, whereas longer holidays give an opportunity of bringing your maintenance up to date and rejuvenating your industry while your main productive workers are off. That may be a real economic asset, while serving two purposes. That is the point I want to make. I am open to argument and conviction but these are points, I think, in the new economic adjustment. Indeed, the new responsibility of the State develops important machinery at the centre. We must have the analysis of a great deal more information about our economic life. I hope there will not be too much talk about forms. We must have the information, in order to arrive at a right judgment. There must be a systematic review of our resources at home, so that we can use them, with our exchange position, to the absolute maximum, both material resources and human.
It is proposed to establish a small central staff of experts, which will not be like the old Economic Council, of which I used to be a member and which met once a month. It never knew what it decided, or perhaps did not decide anything. We shall need continuous examination of evidence, papers and statistics, upon which the Ministers can come to their conclusions, not from some outside body, but with Ministerial responsibility. There are five broad categories which we shall need. There is the financial survey—and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer
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will deal with that side of the matter in his speech. There is a very important survey which will be charged to my Department in future, called the Man-power Budget. This proposal we regard as absolutely vital. The Ministry of Labour hitherto has come in after the event, and paid the benefit. It was a misnomer to charge the Minister of Labour with responsibility for unemployment. He can only persuade. It is now proposed that there shall be supplied to the Ministry of Labour all the information necessary, so that the Minister can predict pretty well where employment will rise or fall, and it is not difficult to do. There are the credit position of the various industries, the forward bookings, the rise and fall of markets and so on. I would say to the employers of the country that I really believe if they have to sit down and make for us this forecast of their forward orders, that it will make them think what their forward orders really are, and it may cause a different approach altogether to this problem. When the information is in, and the Budget is prepared, it will be for the Minister of Labour to hoist the danger signals at once to his colleagues in the Cabinet.
Mr. Shinwell: The trouble is that it is voluntary.
Mr. Bevin: No, the returns of the human budget will be compulsory. We did not put down compulsion of this and that in the White Paper, but we have projected it for the Debate. The intention of the Government is that this kind of return, with the Census of Production, should be obligatory. You must have it or you cannot work the system, just as we get returns of people who are discharged, and the rest of it, at the present time.
Before the war, we had about 15,000,000 people insured against unemployment, of whom I have already said 1,700,000 were, on an average, unemployed. This total of 15,000,000 will be affected in a variety of ways at the end of the war. The raising of the school-leaving age will affect it, and so will increasing longevity. We have talked about the sixty-fives hitherto, but all the evidence goes to show, thank heaven, that we sixty-fives are much younger than we used to be. One cannot tell exactly what the numbers will be, but I estimate, taking the same categories that were

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insured before the war, with the women who will remain in industry and in the professions, that the number will be about 16,000,000. It will be almost sure to go up about another 1,000,000, representing those who will be looking for employment or going into the Services. We shall have to estimate what the basic industries, such as agriculture, coal, cotton and so on, need and can carry; they are the staple industries. We shall have to estimate how many will be absorbed by those industries, in relation to the increase in consumer goods.
The main purpose of the human budget is to be looking to the future all the time, and not merely registering facts that have occurred. We have gained great experience about this during the war. This long-term policy will, as I have said, depend upon stability and the right adjustment of taxation and insurance and all those complicated but co-ordinated needs. I join with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in saying, particularly at this period, that the Budget should be balanced over a period of years. I have seen some criticism in some of the weeklies because of this statement. I am not myself going to depart any more than he is, from the principle of reasonably sound finance. I think all these other measures can be supplementary and contributory to it, but I do not believe in using the wrong instrument for the purpose. After all, our credit position in the world will be a very important factor at the end of the war, and I would not like to pass this point, or to let it be assumed that any other colleague—the Chancellor of the Exchequer or anybody else—is not, like I am, a party to this proposal. I should like to hear the views of hon. Members upon it during the Debate.
Now I turn to the special measures for the transition. As I said at the outset, the transition is an entirely different problem. We shall have to exercise extraordinary care in the transition period. If we do not adopt the right measures then, we may not be able to adopt them at an early date. One must feed into the other. That is vital. To do it, there has to be national discipline. I do not suggest that we shall need all the controls that have operated during the war, but let me mention one or two. Let us assume for a moment that everybody is agreed that the export trade has to be revived. The home market
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Will be clamouring for goods; are we to start on the export trade when we have satisfied the home market? I suggest that if we wait, we shall have lost our export market. Therefore, we shall have to ration supplies for the home market, to reserve a proportion, and to begin building up goodwill and trade for our exports. It is no use people turning this thing into a political conflict. It is a question of absolutely essential measures.
The same thing applies in the home market. One of the things that have carried us through this war is that people accept the view that if we have not always been fair we have done our best to be fair. This deferred buying means a pent up purchasing power. Millions of women will still go to work while lots of others will have time on their hands when they are released. If you want to keep peace in this country and not have disturbance, the woman who goes to work and has not the same advantage in shopping must be able to get her sheets, blankets, and other domestic utensils on exactly the same terms as those who have plenty of time on their hands. These are simple domestic things, and some form of rationing will be absolutely essential until the market is full. We do not know what the food situation will be in Europe for a considerable time after the war. No one can foresee it. There may be a great strain on the foodstocks of the world. Who, then, would be foolish enough to say, immediately the balloon goes up and the Armistice is signed, "Away with controls." You must keep order by maintaining these things, and a sense of fairness right throughout the community.
Then we have to make a selection, according to our use of raw materials for home production of the industries we can start up and develop. We have not foreign investments from which to buy anywhere. We have to get from abroad things that we can turn into finished products which will maintain our purchases of foreign materials. Therefore, control of raw materials is absolutely vital for a considerable period after the war. In that, there may be difficulties about patches of unemployment, but I can assure the House that we shall utilise all the experience we have gained during the war in order to get over them. I have been asked whether this will involve the direction of labour. It may not, but I do not

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believe I should have any difficulty, if it takes a long time to re-tool an industry in a given place and if I have an industry 20, 30 or 40 miles away, in making temporary arrangements, to develop where I can develop, during this interim period. The working people of this country are not unreasonable. They have common sense like everybody else, and I am certain that, handled properly, this thing can be got over without any very great difficulty.
Mr. Loftus: Not as a permanency?
Mr. Bevin: No, purely in the transitional period. You cannot switch over. There will be co-operation among all parties to maintain stability and order while we get on to a more stable level and can see where we are. Another very important thing we must do during this period is to keep up the savings effort, to maintain the surplus savings of the country. That must be done. We must control the use of capital and access to the capital market. All these devices are intended to give the Government of the day a stable, steady position during the transition, so that they can devote their minds and attention to working out by an ordinary method, the more permanent conditions.
I conclude by commending the Motion to the House, with this word: It is not final, it is pioneering, it is blazing a new trail. It is turning our backs on the old system. It is introducing, as against automatic control, conscious direction. It places a great responsibility upon Parliament and upon the Government of the day, and the integrity of its action: to have in its hands the direction of the economic life of the country as it wills, is not something to be taken lightly. But having taken on that responsibility, then with the great standard that has been built up in our Civil Service, with the standard of our public conduct in dealing with these affairs, and with our great traditions in public life, both local and national, we can with safety start out on this road this week and begin to say that we have left the old vexed disease of unemployment behind us.
Mr. Henry Brooke: The House has appreciated the lucidity and sincerity of the speech to which we have just listened. I want to welcome
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this White Paper. I want to congratulate the Cabinet on it, and particularly to congratulate Lord Woolton, whose name it bears. I think we should all wish to join with the Minister of Labour in paying our tribute, as a House of Commons, to all those civil servants and economists who have worked hard to compile this document, which strikes me as the promising offspring of a not unhappy marriage between permanent and temporary civil servants. We shall have, in these three days, many points of constructive criticism raised. I am under no illusion that there may be destructive criticism too from extremists in various directions. But to my mind the virtue of this White Paper is that it affords a starting-point, on which all sane-minded people should be able to agree, a starting-point for the further exploration of this great subject. We in this House, irrespective of party, surely ought to see how far we can go forward together along the lines on which it points, and not pour our energies into theoretic and unrealistic controversies, whether about the nationalisation of every industrial undertaking in the country, or alternatively about the breaking of every link between Government and industry. Rather, as I see it, we have to play our part in creating a practical partnership between Government and industry. The Government needs to create conditions in which the natural genius of the British race can flourish. If we agree on that, and if we agree that the aim of full employment must be given high priority, then at any rate we shall all be working on the same puzzle, and we may have good success in fitting its various pieces into place.
One criticism I have heard brought I against this White Paper is that the against have not committed themselves to the words "full employment." I cannot take that particular criticism very seriously. The object of the policy is set out to be
"a high and a stable level of employment without sacrificing the essential liberties of a free society."
That is not a bad definition, and as between the man who promises and fails to perform, and the other man who promises not too much but delivers the goods, I know which I should choose. My aim is that no man, except through his own fault, should ever have to be many days without the prospect of a job.

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If a man is out of work for a short time but knows that a job will be available quickly, that means an entirely different state of mind for him from the situation of the thousands of men in places like Maerdy in South Wales, or those poor derelict villages in South-West Durham—or indeed on Clydeside—where one saw that tragic sight of men sitting on their haunches at street corners knowing that industry there was dead, and not knowing if there was any chance of it reviving again. That is what the House of Commons has to kill.
The Minister, in his speech, referred to the long-term policy first and the transitional policy afterwards. As regards the transitional policy, dealt with in Chapter 2 of the White Paper, can there be any serious criticism of the aims and principles there set out? It strikes me that all of us can agree on Chapter 2 virtually without exception, and that our business as regards this transitional period, the business of Parliament, is to see that the Government's arrangements for carrying out those aims and principles are well and efficiently made in good time. If hon. Members will look on page 8 of the White Paper they will see a list of six objectives there. To take examples, the Government say they are making preparations to assist firms to prepare to switch over their capacity, are finding out in advance where the skilled labour available will be most urgently required, and are arranging that the disposal of surplus Government stocks shall not prejudice re-establishment of the normal trade channels. One matter on which I hope information will be asked for in speeches from back bench Members and will be given by Government spokesmen in this Debate, is the manner in which the Government are tackling these preparatory measures. Though I am sure it is the case that the work going forward, the ordinary Member of this House can have but little knowledge so far of what is being done, and the ordinary member of the public still less. There is need in all these matters, of the transitional period and beyond, for an accurate survey of the situation, and for the essential knowledge not only to be piled up in Civil Service files, but to be transmitted to the general public, to be transmitted to the key people in industry and the trade unions and else-
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where and to be passed on by them to all those whom I may call their constituents.
Of course the public recognises and accepts that the most urgent needs must be met first, so long as supply is short. The public, I am certain, can be brought to understand the need for special priority for export needs in the transitional period. What we must watch to see is that these various transitional measures, many of winch, as the White Paper says, will undoubtedly be unpalatable to many people —some perhaps unpalatable to the whole nation as individuals—are clearly explained to the whole nation so that they will be willingly accepted. That brings me to ask whether the Government have any publicity plans for this, their own, White Paper? I cannot help contrasting the relatively small amount of public attention so far given to it with the tremendous explosion with which the Beveridge Report first burst upon the world. Without in any way decrying the importance of that Report, this is infinitely more important as a pioneering document, and people ought to be enabled to know more about it.
Turning to the permanent policy, this White Paper necessarily has to be somewhat sketchy on the question of overseas trade. That, as the Minister says, cannot be wholly under our own control, as internal affairs and internal trade can be. There is a need here too to educate the public. The ordinary person, even the ordinary worker in exporting industries, has nothing like the full knowledge he ought to have of the extent to which this nation has to live by selling its goods abroad—by producing those goods of the right quality and at the right price so that people overseas will buy them when they are in competition with other goods offered from other sources.
Mr. Gallacher: Is the hon. Member not aware that in that connection one big factor during the period between the wars was the question of managerial functions? The employers in industry considered that the workers had no right whatever to know anything about the industry, but that they were just there to work as they were told?
Mr. Brooke: With great respect I do not think that was generally true. It would certainly be a wholly undesirable state of affairs. In any case, let me beg

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the hon. Member to look forward with the majority of us to the future, instead of always harping on the past. What we have to do in this country is to realise we must build our export trade on goods which we can make better than other people, and on goods which we can be the first to make. We shall not achieve prosperity or stability in our overseas business if we count on continuing to be able to export the commoner goods on which our export trade was first built up. One of the weaknesses of our policy between the two wars—and the electorate is as much to blame in this matter as the House of Commons or any Government—is that we all somehow went on hoping that the old export trades would revive to their old fulness, and were not quick or bold enough to recognise that many of them had been permanently reduced, and that special action had to be taken to transfer their capacity and their workers to new and more progressive lines of production.
In this connection it would not be out of place again to stress the need for the Government to train their own officials in first-hand knowledge and experience of the difficulties under which British goods have to be sold abroad. I hope that the report of the Committee on the Training of Civil Servants will receive further attention in this House. It has some useful suggestions on these lines, and the House ought to press the Government to go forward. Indeed, I should like to see in connection with the export side, on which, as I say, the White Paper is bound to be somewhat sketchy, the House asking the Government for further and more detailed statements about their ideas for the co-operation of the Government with industry and the whole British people's export effort.
Now as to home policy, that part of the policy which should be under our own control. In my view the White Paper is entirely right in concentrating, as the most important feature, on maintaining private capital expenditure steady at a high level. The first need of all for achieving that is political security, national and international. The second need is economic security; and by economic security, I mean, in this context, a responsible Government economic policy, which everyone can understand, and which is seen to be based on principles,
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and not on political opportunism. Beyond that, we have to give study to the various techniques, some of which are suggested in this White Paper, for ironing out fluctuations. The plan of encouraging private industry to make five or ten year plans of its future capital investment policy is right, but private industry can do that only if it is assured that the Government are giving it the maximum of political and economic security.
There are other measures—variation in tax incidence or in depreciation allowances; another which might have been given greater prominence in the White Paper is the possibility of influencing variations in stocks. In all these matters the Government must take the business world into their confidence. They must enable the business world, and the whole people, to co-operate with them because their own policy is understandable. In that way they may help to remove what has been an undesirable element in years past, and that is excessive speculation. Economists of old have praised speculation as a means of evening out minor fluctuations. Well and good; but speculation is also liable to give rise to major fluctuations, and I miss any adequate reference in this White Paper to measures to control financial speculation after the war. A point I would like to submit is whether the line of definition in the White Paper between public and private capital expenditure is right. It does not seem to me to matter so much whether the ownership is public or private. Surely, the important distinction is whether it is a business carried on according to ordinary economic laws, whether it has to be economically remunerative over a period, whether it has to cover its costs, or whether it is that other type of investment, like the building of roads or schools, which is not amenable to the profit and loss account in the same way. If we could seize hold of that as the true distinction we might be able to sidetrack the arid controversy about nationalisation, which I am afraid some people will try to drag into the discussion of this White Paper.
As to the proposal for offsetting fluctuations of employment by varying the social insurance contribution, that is an exceedingly interesting and original idea, which needs a great deal of further thought. It may be objected to by people at first

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sight. It may be objected to by those who, when they are out of work, say that the first thing the Government propose is to decrease the contributions which are being made each week for their upkeep, by those in work and by their employers. There are, obviously, psychological difficulties; but it is well worth following further. I hope that the Chancellor, when he speaks, will indicate his mind on the possibilities of arranging similar fluctuations with some of the taxes which enter into the national Budget. The virtue of making the social security contribution fluctuate is that it would be easy to turn the tap on and off—it may be, as the White Paper says, thermostatically controlled. But that might also apply to other taxes; taxes on articles of personal expenditure; the Income Tax, indeed; and I should not like it to be found that the social insurance contribution had been chosen for variation simply because that was the one item which did not enter into the Budget. We must not allow our outlook to be restricted to those items which we can alter without affecting the annual balance of the Budget. I am entirely with the Minister and with the Government that, over a term of years, the national Budget must be balanced, but there is a great deal more that might be done in introducing flexibility into our taxation system as it enters into the Budget from year to year.
In all this, it is not only what the facts are that matters, it is what people think the facts to be. For an illustration of that, think how any attempt to put into force a policy of full employment may be hindered by restrictive practices which have grown up. I cannot help hoping that, just as restrictive practices or demarcation rules have really been insisted upon by trade unions in the past as safeguards against unemployment, so, if this House shows itself, irrespective of party, determined to adopt a policy of full employment, trade union leaders will respond in their psychology to that, and will be ready to go with us all in getting rid of restrictions which dearly undermine the efficiency of industry. It affects not only the trade union side; on the employer's side too there are monopoly practices which are undesirable. Monopoly abuses are not nearly so common as a great deal that one reads in the popular Press would lead one to think. I want to bring the facts to the public. There is too much
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suspicion; there is a great deal of smoke, but I want to see how much fire there is. I would support any reasonable proposals which the Government put forward for having allegations of restrictive practices brought up to a tribunal which could objectively examine them, and submit its findings and its recommendations to the House of Commons.
I wonder whether there is any more important part of this White Paper than its proposals 'for a better information service. The war has brought into existence the Central Statistical Service, and we all ought to agree that that should be carried on and perfected. One of the things which this country has lacked is a first-class industrial intelligence service. It cannot all be done at the centre; it has to be done out in the country, too. It has to be based on regional services, finding out what is in people's minds locally about the economic situation, as well as analysing figures at the centre. This information, if it is asked for in the right way, can be obtained. Some Government Departments have learned, much better than others, how to send out forms and questionnaires in a way which enables the recipient to understand what is being got at, to sympathise with the purpose, and to respond to the invitation to give the information on which the Government can found a policy which will be helpful to all concerned. That, again, is a technique which is capable of great improvement.
A great deal of all the controversy about Government control is sterile. The Minister spoke about all this White Paper involving more economic control by the State. I hope that there is another side to that, and that, besides more economic control by the State, we can count on more understanding by the State. One without the other would hardly be acceptable. The objection of the ordinary person is not to regulations as such, but to arbitrary and unpredictable regulations. Nobody objects to the rule of the road, or traffic lights, or policemen on point duty, or one-way streets. What is upsetting is if one morning the one-way street labels have all been changed the other way round, and you find yourself in the police court for having committed an offence which you could not possibly have guarded against. There must be power to criticise regulations, to bring

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objections against them; there must be, as it were, no overnight changes: and they must not be designed to help certain interests against others. It is uncertainty which kills business and kills employment, because those who are responsible for the planning of business have to take everything they can foresee into account, and if there are complete unknowables which may enter in, they are bound to play for safety—every man is. That is why we need to have the principles of State action understood, we need to be sure that it is kept under the eye of Parliament, and we need to take measures to see that it is not misused for sectional ends.
Behind all this I would put the building up of a real constructive partnership between the Government and industry. There was an unkind story of the Board of Trade in old days, that its members, if dealing with a big business man, always suspected him, on the ground that he could not have become a big business man unless there was something crooked about him, and that, if dealing with a small business man, they always despised him, on the ground that if he had been any good he would have become a big business man. That, let us hope, is a thing of the past. Equally, there has been need for better understanding, on industry's side, of the things which Government Departments can perform. The passwords to full employment are unity and efficiency. Anyone who connives at action which leads to inefficiency, anyone who, by word or by deed, stirs up suspicions and ill-feelings between one section of the community and another, is a creator of unemployment. The Minister spoke of his experience in seeing men in the Army embarking for France. What the men and women in the Services want to see, what men and women in every branch of war work want to see, is Members of Parliament with a white-hot determination that there shall be work, as well as homes and food, for all in the years after the war. It depends on us in the House of Commons. But it also depends on them—the men and women who are looking to us —and we Members of Parliamnet ought to be bold enough to say so.
Mr. Graham White: I certainly would be bold enough to say to the men in the Forces that the future lies with them to a very great extent, and that the world will not right itself, as we
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hope it will, unless they are prepared actively to engage in and take responsibility for the conduct of the affairs of this country when they return to it. I have had letters from men overseas who say "What is going to happen to us when we come back?" I hope this is not going to be the spirit which dominates the men when they do come back. They must come back to the country with a full opportunity for responsibility in the conduct of its affairs. Work, food and homes is not enough for these men. We do not want a spoon-fed population here. They must take their responsibility, with the rest of us, for the conduct of our affairs and of their own affairs.
I pass now to the speech of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. He has rendered great services to this country and very great services to this House, but I very much doubt whether he has rendered any greater service, in the Parliamentary sense, than by his speech to-day. He brought us from the somewhat rarified atmosphere of the White Paper right down to human needs and human realities, and he presented it to us, not in isolation, but as part of a great social objective which the people of this country have made up their minds to secure—the doing away with squalor and want, ignorance and the wretched evils which have faced us in the past. He presented this White Paper policy to us as a challenge to Parliament and a challenge to the people. I say without hesitation that neither this Government nor any other can carry out this policy, or anything which begins to look like it, unless, it can ensure the co-operation of the people of the country. When the war is over, the testing time of democracy will come. Democracy has shown in war-time that it is afraid of nothing and that there is no test of organisation that cannot be overcome. The critical days will come at the end of the war, when we shall have to see whether we are, individually and collectively, democratically organised for the purpose of building up the country and making it fit for human habitation, and whether we are prepared, for a policy such as this and other policies, to make such a sustained effort as the Germans have made in their country for the purpose of destruction and loot. That is the testing time, and the Minister is quite right to say, in presenting these proposals, that

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they are a challenge for discussion, because if we have a Government, after the war, which does not care about these things, then nothing will be done. The people, I think, will see to it that these things are done.
My friends and I welcome these proposals because they contain two revolutionary ideas. The first of them is one which the Minister emphasised in his opening remarks, and is the first sentence in the foreword to the White Paper, namely, that the Government
"accept as one of their primary aims and responsibilities the maintenance of a high and stable level of employment after the war."
I do not know about acceptance as a primary aim, but the people of the country would be glad if the Government had accepted it without qualification at all and have accepted it as a responsibility. The White Paper does not say "full employment." The two words do not come together in it. Certainly, there is no programme here for full employment, and there is no pledge. It is a policy, as is rightly stated, for maintaining a high and stable level of employment. That is a great thing and the Government are assuming that responsibility. Those of us who have, like myself, sat in this House for 15 or 20 years will know what a revolution it is. I shall never forget a Chancellor of the Exchequer, at a time when unemployment was at a very high level, and there was a procession of unemployed, to which reference has been made to-day, saying to this House:
"I must warn hon. Members that this winter, next winter and perhaps for many winters to come, there must he many men, perhaps a million or more, for whom we shall be unable to provide work."
When one goes back to that, and remembers the efforts then made for the control of evils of that kind, one is thankful for the revolution which has taken place and be much more hopeful to set out on this great adventure. The other revolution, which is no less important, is the realisation and acceptance by the Government that if you do anything at all about unemployment you must prevent it. Unemployment has been described, I think by Mr. Seebohm Rowntree, as a prairie fire which goes sweeping forward destroying everything before it. This is a vital principle and it has been recognised, I am glad to say, and very important provision is made for it in this White Paper.
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Regarding the Minister's proposal for an economic general staff, the whole of this proposal would be, in effect, meaningless if it were to be just a small central general staff. We want to raise the dignity of that central staff to a very high level in our transactions. Incidentally, I may say that the proposals in the White Paper —and it is interesting to look back historically—are almost precisely the same in detail, and, in fact, the same language is used, as in the argument for an economic general staff which was inserted in "Britain's Industrial Future," published in 1929. It is true that the evil was as great then as it was in 1939. The unfortunate thing is that the proposals were not adopted then. I am not trying to make a party point; I am only pointing out the similarity. We claim no copyright in that argument, and if the Goverament propose to adopt it, we shall have no objection. We are glad to note that the speech of the Minister had that ringing note in it, and the conviction that something can be done.
The Minister did well to remind us of the great difficulties that will arise in the transition period. We must not forget that all these things have to be related in practice to the human needs and modes of rife of 20,000,000 to 25,000,000 human beings. In the transition period we shall have in fact a considerable number of men dealing with priorities, for export and home production and the like, and men may have to change their jobs three, four or even five times. These problems will call for a very high order of responsibility and administration; and there are others which are more serious than that. When one thinks that, in the last 2½years, 50 per cent. of our school-leavers have gone into the light engineering trades though, in the future, the industry will not require them in any such numbers, one sees arising problems of a human character of the most serious kind. I find satisfaction in what the Minister said about dovetailing arrangements. The training schemes of the Ministry must be so organised that they will take out of an industry people who can he no longer employed, though they had been directed into it in the exigencies of the war. We may hope that some parts of the building trade may take over some of the surplus from the engineering industry. It is a terrible thing to think that 50 per cent. of our school-leavers

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have gone, in the most formative years of their lives, into an industry and into work which is not going to be their life's work. This problem is terribly important.
It is difficult to find cheerful and encouraging features in looking forward to this post-war period, but I think there are two which are encouraging in relation to the problem we are considering to-day. The first is that, if the war ends, as we hope it will and as we know it will, in abolishing the fear of war, which had retarded the general development of industry and economics and caused catastrophic movements of capital and led to a general damping down of industry, which were among the most potent causes of unemployment in the world, the world will be free, for the first time for 25 years, from the most serious factor which has been clogging the wheels of industry. If the House of Commons can succeed in persuading people that we are determined to carry through a policy of expansion and a policy of abundance, as opposed to a policy of scarcity which has existed since the first German war, we shall have removed from their minds the belief, which was widely but wholly wrongfully held, that there was only a certain limited amount of work to be done, from which conviction there had sprung up practices of all kinds which were perfectly understandable. The Minister knows what they are—questions of demarcation and of spreading the work. If we can succeed in doing this—it is a great aim and a great ambition—it will make things ever so much easier.
We want this country and its people to have a greater sense of awareness of what is going on. They are not aware of it yet. It is greatly to our credit, and, indeed a marvellous thing, I think, that, in the midst of this colossal conflict so much of our time, both as a Government and as individuals, can be directed to the processes of peace and reconstruction. I am not sure that all of it is going in the right direction, but I hope that our discussions in this House may perhaps lead it into the right direction, In the many communications which reach me—resolutions from trade associations, proposals for planning from professional associations and the like—I notice that nearly all of them demand something from the Government; also many of them are quite
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prepared on occasion to denounce the Government for all their works. It is good that associations of all kinds—trade unions, trade organisations, professional organisations—should be planning for the future and should be sharing their views —such is the way to work—but do not let them ask what the Government are prepared to give without saying what they propose to contribute themselves. I hope that that tendency will be overcome in the light of the discussions proceeding in this House.
I do not wish to deal in any great detail with the actual proposals in the White Paper, but there is one matter which I hope will receive further attention from the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he speaks in the Debate to-morrow. I refer to the proposals with regard to central finance which are embodied in paragraphs 74–79 of the White Paper. I have read these paragraphs several times and am still unable to make up my mind just exactly what they mean. The opening sentence in paragraph 74 says:
"None of the main proposals contained in this Paper involves deliberate planning for a deficit in the National Budget in years of subnormal trade activity."
I should like to know what is meant by "deliberate". If it means that we are to have a casual or a chance Budget deficit what becomes of the plan? By the time you get to a deficit in the Budget your plans will have gone very far awry. It disturbs me personally; other people may be more fortunate in the way they can read it, but I do not know what is meant. Do the Government mean that it will be necessary to unbalance the Budget and meet the fluctuations in the supply of private and public capital by creating a deficit, or do they not? If they are not prepared, upon occasion, to borrow for the purposes of supplying expenditure to increase the consuming power of the country, they cannot do what they claim to be the object set 'before them in this White Paper. I certainly hope that the Chancellor will give some little time to explaining exactly what is meant by these proposals. It cannot be expected that the Government will be able to deal with the fluctuations in public expenditure unless they are prepared, upon occasion, deliberately and not by chance, to unsettle the Budget.
The proposals for central finance seem to be the least satisfactory of the pro-

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posals and consequently a part to which I hope Parliament will give a good deal of attention. There was no reference made directly to proposals for a double Budget—a capital Budget and a revenue Budget—which has had a great deal of support in many quarters. I doubt whether anyone knows what the capital assets belonging to the Crown and the State really are, and if they do not, I suggest that it is high time that somebody finds out. There is a psychological point in connection with the continued growth of the National Debt. The National Debt, I suppose, is of the order of£20,000,000,000, but I do not think that there is anybody in the Government who can tell me or the House what amount of capital assets stand behind that£20,000,000,000. I inquired from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury recently the amount of land held by the Crown and by local authorities in this country, excluding the land now held by Service Departments for war purposes. He reproved me gently, but firmly, and said that to get information of that kind would involve an amount of work which it certainly was not worth, and he hoped that I would not insist upon getting it. I thought that he ought to have apologised to me for not giving a piece of information which the House and the country ought to have. If we have to increase our borrowing to deal from time to time with the unemployment problem, and even fluctuations of capital expenditure of all kinds, it is desirable that we should have a double Budget—a Revenue and a Capital Budget—and it is absolutely essential for the peace of mind of the people of this country that we should know what are our national assets. I would ask my right hon. Friend opposite now whether he will ask the Chancellor to say whether he will in fact set an inquiry on foot to enable a future Minister to come to this House and let us know what the capital assets of the country are worth. It would make our burdens easier to bear and easier to understand.
We welcome these proposals as far as they go, and they go a very long way. They start on roads along which there is further to travel than any proposition that has ever previously been put before the House. How far we shall get will depend upon the enthusiasm with which
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they are pushed by the Government and the responsibility with which they are undertaken by the country. They are a challenge to the House of Commons and a challenge to the country, which I hope the country will accept.
Mr. Tinker: I cannot follow the ramifications of the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. G. White) into finance, what the National Debt represents arid what the national assets are. In my opinion it does not matter very much. We have to carry on the country, and to me the national assets are the human beings in the country. They are the assets, arid they have to be looked after. I am pleased that the spokesman for the Government has been my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. There had been some doubt as to who would move the Motion, but to me he is the embodiment of the employment policy. We on these benches regard him as being the chief man in anything of this character, and I was very glad indeed that he was chosen by the Government to put the case for the White Paper and I appreciate fully the way he has dealt with it. He has done his work very well indeed. I agree that it was a somewhat difficult task, but at a certain point in the White Paper I shall have to criticise. I am glad of the recognition of the fundamental principle under-lying the White Paper that, for the first time, all the chief orthodox political parties have come down on to a common basis that this country must recognise that a fundamental policy of employment must comprise employment for every able-bodied man and woman in the land requiring it. No longer should we tolerate unemployment in a country like this. If that is the policy of all Governments who take office, the country will be on a fair way to getting something like what it ought to have had many years ago.
My criticism is with regard to the policy of allowing private enterprise a lot of play in the reorganisation of employment policy. Everybody who examines the White Paper will find running through it the idea that for a time there will be no unemployment. As time goes on, and we have covered the various requirements of society there will be a slackening somewhere; some industries will fail and other industries will be wanted elsewhere. I find, according to the White Paper, that it is proposed to approach private enter-

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prise and find out exactly their position. In the meantime the Government will have examined different parts of the country where employment is necessary—the distressed areas—and will say to the private enterprise people, "We want a different kind of work introduced into this part or that part of the country. Are you prepared to take it there?" That means that there is to be an inducement. It must be profitable before private enterprise will go anywhere at all. If they refuse to go, the Government will make certain overtures to them in the matter of financial aid in order to persuade them.
Where are we getting? The practice of private enterprise in the past has been "To get all you can; make the best out of the labour you have regardless of the consequences; make profits wherever you can, and when profits cannot be made, the industry must close." We have had examples of that in my time in the various collieries where employers had worked a rich seam of coal. When they exhausted it, they went to a worse seam, and when it was realised that there would be a loss of money they departed and left the mine altogether. That is how private enterprise expresses itself. It is driven to make profits or it has to get out—or cut the wages of the workers. The Government will now say, "We want you to go to some other area and we will see that you are adequately financed." That is the inducement they will get. What does that mean to us? It means that we are going to put employers in a safe position; they will never lose at all at any time. In my opinion we are going to make those in private enterprise glorified middle men.
We have already attempted to cut out the middle man because we have said he is of no use to anybody. The middle man gets prospective buyers for the commodity, markets it, and makes a good thing out of it. We have always recognised that the private employer had to risk something, and the consumer has to chance what he can get. Now, in this White Paper we are creating glorified middle men, the employers Of private enterprise who will never have to run any risk at all. All they will say is, "We cannot carry on in an area where you may want us to take our work without having help from the Treasury."
I claim that that is the wrong way to look at what I term the employment
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policy of this country. I want private enterprise to have its chance, but, if it fails, the Government should have no qualms at all but should step in and say that the time has come when they must control industry because private enterprise has failed. It is often argued that private enterprise has all the brains. Why cannot these men of high capacity be taken into the service of the State and use their brains in that direction rather than be allowed, as this White Paper suggests, to make whatever they can out of private enterprise with Government backing? It would be far better for them to be servants of the State when that position arises. That, to my mind, is one of the implications of the White Paper which is detrimental, especially to our side, because we have always asserted that unemployment is bound to follow our present system. Nothing can stop it, and unless the Government are prepared to step in and take over heavy industries such as coal, I do not see how unemployment can be prevented. Here is a grand opportunity for the State to step in and do it now. We have laid down the fundamental principle that employment must be for every one. When we feel that private enterprise is tottering, then the Government should have no hesitation in taking over all kinds of private industry for the benefit of our people.
Mr. H. Brooke: May I ask a question? I have always understood that the policy of the hon. Member's party was that the State should take over certain basic industries. Now the White Paper policy, as I understand it, is that the Government should get the industrial economy of different regions in the country more diversified, by inducing all kinds of smaller industries to grow there. Is the hon. Member arguing that the State should take over all those smaller industries too?
Mr. Tinker: Yes, I am arguing somewhat on those lines. If the Government have to look after a distressed area, they offer an inducement to a firm, saying that they want some factories put down in that place. The firm may say, "But we cannot go on an ordinary business basis. We want from you some subsidy or some help by way of loan." When that time arrives, when the private employer cannot go voluntarily but has to be induced by the Government to do so, then I say

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the time has come for the Government to take over that particular industry and finance it and control it. If you do not, if you tell these people that they will not suffer any loss by going, that will lead to incompetence because they will know very well that they have the Government behind them. When that time arrives, I say the State should take full control as they ought to have done years ago.
Sir Granville Gibson: Might not reluctance to go to a certain area be due to the fact that it would be disastrous for the undertaking? In my own industry it would absolutely murder any firm to take it to a place where the water is not suitable. Therefore a firm might refuse, not because it did not want to go, but simply because it would be disastrous to do so.
Mr. Tinker: I am arguing that if it is necessary for an industry to go to a certain area the Government should not say, "We will see you do not suffer any loss at all." To my mind that is only putting middle men in to control industry, and when private enterprise cannot go on its own initiative, then the Government ought to take over control. That is one thing in the White Paper with which I do not agree. I am not blaming the Labour representatives in the Cabinet. The Cabinet at the present time is composed largely of private enterprise, therefore there has to be some compromise to get a White Paper before the House. The Government representatives have said, "We cannot at this moment throw over private enterprise," and therefore certain points have been insisted upon, but it is for the House of Commons now to express how they feel on this matter, and, especially from our side, to warn the Government that we cannot accept this wholeheartedly, although we do agree that the employment policy is something which ought to be carried out.
Now I want to turn to a happier point. During the early part of the war I went to some of the training centres in Manchester where I saw attempts being made to do something for the derelicts of industry. Men unemployed for a long period, owing to the necessities of the war, have been advised by the employment exchanges to take up training. It was a revelation to anybody who went to those training centres to see men and women appreciating that they were getting recog-
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nition, and applying all their skill and industry, vying with each other to mace a good return. To the men and women I said then, "When the war does end, I hope that what is being done now will be recognised by the State, and that no one will be allowed to waste his energies by standing unemployed at the street corners." If there is no employment for them, they should be trained ready to take whatever may come along later.
Another good point in this White Paper is the creation of a research department to find out about fluctuation of trade and to be ready for it. That is another step towards the right way of getting to work, but when industry is showing any signs of failure—and as we know in modern times various kinds of industry cease 'to be wanted—then we have to provide means to establish another. The training scheme to my mind is essential in that direction. On that point I want to say something to the Minister of Labour. It says in the White Paper that they will not receive unemployment benefit but something higher. I want that something higher to be equal to the wages of an ordinary man or woman in any other industry. When a man or woman is sent to be trained, I want the Government to say to them, "You are an asset of the State," and they must not be paid something lower than ordinary wages. I believe humanity will show its very best if it is trusted and given a sense of security. I have always thought that it is the sense of insecurity which has caused much of the prejudice and petty jealousy in our people up to the present time. So I ask the Minister that when he sends anybody to be trained, their wages shall be comparable to whatever wage will be earned in the industry they are to follow. If he can do that, I believe it will be hailed with great satisfaction.
I shall not take long because, although there are many other points to be covered, I am an advocate of short speeches. I want to say how glad I am that at the time of the greatest war in industry the Government of the day can come forward with an employment policy to be examined so that the House of Commons can give some lead on what we want. I look upon this White Paper as a charter for the British people.
Captain Prescott: I consider myself extraordinarily fortunate to have

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been able to catch your eye at this time, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and to have been allowed to take part in this Debate which, after the actual prosecution of the war, is concerned with the most vital matter before the British public to-day. I am sure that every hon. Member will agree with one thing: that whatever measures are necessary to ensure full employment, those measures must be taken. If the measures which have just been adumbrated by my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) were necessary to ensure that every man and woman in this country were set to work, and if this House and the country were so satisfied, then I am quite certain everyone would agree that those measures would have to be put into effect. But I, and some of my hon. Friends on this side of the House, do not share the conviction which my hon. Friend has just uttered. However, one thing is absolutely certain, and that is that the millions of human derelicts which existed in this country, between 1930 and 1940, can never again parade our streets.
I am concerned, by virtue of the constituency I represent, with cotton, and I thoroughly appreciate that this Debate is on full employment as a whole and is not necessarily concerned with any particular industry. I feel, however, I should be entitled to-day to deal shortly with this particular industry, and to bring it forward as an illustration in regard to the policy of full employment. The first observation I want to make with regard to the cotton industry is that, so far, this Debate has proceeded entirely upon the assumption that one has to find jobs for men and women who will be only too eager to take those jobs. But in the cotton industry I would venture to say to my right hon. Friend that that does not entirely represent the situation. I need not go into the history of the industry. It is one of our oldest industries, and it is the industry to which this country owes possibly more than to any other industry. It has been going for centuries. Its mills are old, some of its machinery is also old, and a position has now arisen—and I think this House and the Minister should face it—in which it is very difficult to persuade young men and young women to go into the cotton industry. It has a history, over a long period, of insecurity of employment. The facilities in the mills are
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not always of the best; there is not always opportunity for promotion among adult operatives. These and some other matters, cumulatively, have undermined the confidence of the young people in the Lancashire cotton towns, and to-day it does not follow that, because mother and father went into the mill as lad and lass, the child will also go into the mill. The children have developed a wider vision, they have developed greater knowledge and a greater wish to explore than were ever known by their parents. Therefore, something more must be offered to them; and they are entitled to expect that their wishes should be considered.
So I would say to my right hon. Friend that, with regard to the cotton industry, consideration must be given to how employment in that industry can be improved—the conditions of the workers and also the mills. I fully appreciate that is a very difficult question. The industry, over the years, has passed through very difficult times, and not all the miseries which it has suffered could have been avoided. Many of those miseries were the result of affairs overseas, which were beyond the control of the Government and the people of this country.
The fact remains that the industry has been through very bad times, and that unless something really effective is done those times might recur. In considering all these matters, one also has to take into account how one can improve the conditions in the industry, while, at the same time, trying to restore it to its former greatness. Yesterday, I addressed a Question to the President of the Board of Trade because I hoped that I might be fortunate enough to be able to take part in this Debate. I asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he had considered a recent Report made by the Cotton Board Committee on the future of the cotton industry, and whether he could make any statement on that Report. The right hon. Gentleman replied that he was not yet in a position to do so, and that he was still engaged in, conversations with other Departments and representatives of the industry and trade unions on that Report. I most fully appreciate the complexity of the matter, and would be the last to press the right hon. Gentleman unduly to make a statement, unless and until he thought every possible avenue had been explored. But it is rather diffi-

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cult to take part in a Debate on full employment in relation to Lancashire, when not a word has been uttered by the Government on the Report which was made to the President of the Board of Trade by the Cotton Board Committee.
Many industrialists in Lancashire are opposed to the major recommendations of that Committee; others welcome them. Many operatives and representatives of organised labour in the industry favour the Report more than the employers but I had hoped that before this Debate started we should, have had some statement from the President of the Board of Trade. As we have not, one is rather in the dark on this matter. I speak as a layman who knows nothing about cotton, save that for six months I have represented a cotton constituency. What I have to say in regard to that industry has been gleaned from my wanderings in -the mills and my talks with the people concerned, and I think it also applies to industry as a whole. Very effective and violent action will have to be taken with regard to the cotton industry, and it will not be the slightest use for methods of production or organisation in that industry to be retained, merely on the ground that they have been in existence for many years. I would hazard the suggestion—the industry is organised on a horizontal basis—that it may be necessary to cut out a large part of the dead wood, and put the industry, as a whole, on a sounder and more economic basis than that which has existed in the past. While supporting the thesis of private enterprise, as the basis for our national life, I sincerely hope that the Government, and the President of the Board of Trade in particular, will not hesitate to take such action as is considered right and proper, in order to increase the efficiency of the cotton industry, and to provide better facilities for the hundreds of thousands of men and women who work in it.
Before I turn from cotton may I mention one other point in connection with another Question which I put to the President of the Board of Trade yesterday, about the possibility of furthering the entrance of young people into the cotton trade? Again, on that point, the right hon. Gentleman replied that he was in consultation with various Government Departments, including the Ministry of Labour. He said that everything was
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being done that could be done, but he could make no pronouncement on the matter at the moment. Again, I appreciate the complexity of that matter, but I hope that, soon, Lancashire and her cotton people will be given some guidance on both these matters, which are very pressing. We have heard to-day the suggestion of an economic council. I hope the Government Departments will most fully take into their confidence Lancashire Members of Parliament on these matters, so that, if necessary, they may form a nucleus to discuss these great issues with the Ministers concerned. If the Government are to be in possession of more information from industry, then individual Members must also be in possession of more information from industralists arid workers in their constituencies. I hope that all those in our constituencies will take us into their confidence in these matters, and thus enable us to play a fuller and more useful part in this House.
I do not wish to keep the House much longer. I conclude with a slight repetition by saying that in the comparatively small town of Darwen, which has a population of about 30,000, there were 10,000 people unemployed in 1931. Out of 5o mills, over 25 were closed, and the misery, want and poverty which were experienced there were indescribable. Whatever our political views may be, I hope that a message will go forth from this House to-day and in the ensuing days of the Debate on this White Paper, that will make it clear that those conditions will never be allowed to return. I was not in the House then, but I remember being told when I was in the Services how, just before the outbreak of war, when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) rose to speak, a Member who is now my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State far India said, "Speak for England, Arthur." I hope to-day that everybody in the House will speak for the working men and women of England, and that they will give of their best and treat this House as a Council, so that the policies expressed in the White Paper may be brought into operation. I believe that private enterprise and public enterprise must march side by side. I hope each one of us will welcome this White Paper and will see that, so far as we can, it is made effective for the benefit of all in the country.
Mr. Silkin: I rise to give general support to the policy and principles laid down in the White Paper, and to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour on the remarkable statement he made to-day, and also the Government—it is quite a change to be able to congratulate them—on the fact that they have been able to produce a document which will have momentous effects. I am able to say this the more readily because my right hon. Friend himself referred to the fact that the issue as between private enterprise and public enterprise was not prejudiced by anything in the White Paper. That document lays down a number of general principles which progressive economists and the Labour Party have advocated for many years, and which we are now delighted to see have been accepted in principle by the Government. But, of course, unemployment is not relieved merely by laying down principles, and I should be very interested to know what the Government are actually doing to prepare for the time when we shall be faced with unemployment, unless preventive measures are taken in time.
A great deal of importance is attached, quite rightly, to the question of the export trade. On the extent of that trade, depend not only employment but also the standard of living of our people and, therefore, we must do everything we can to foster as great an export trade as possible. The White Paper, quite rightly, recognises that fact, but I should be glad to know what steps the Government are taking now to ensure that we do get a proper proportion of the export trade of the world. It is no good blinking the fact that, unless something is done now, when the war is over, our American Allies will be in a position to capture a large proportion of the export trade of the world, it is an open secret that America is making extensive preparations for securing a large export trade, whereas we in this country, possibly for very good reasons, are not in a position to carry out the necessary planning and research to enable us to get our share of the export trade. I happen to know a number of manufacturers who desire to secure the services of one or two men and a small quantity of steel with which to carry out experimental work, with a view to preparing for future export trade. Their applications have been refused. I do not
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challenge the fact that, possibly, there have been good reasons for that refusal, that the war effort must come first, but we shall be greatly handicapped unless something of that sort can be done as quickly as possible.
The White Paper declares that negotiations are taking place with the United States of America, and with our other Allies, for the purpose of securing international co-operation. It is along those lines that our most hopeful channel for securing a fair share of international trade lies. I shall be glad to know whether any statement can be made as to how these negotiations are progressing. Unless we can get some success in these discussions we shall be thrown back to the scramble and chaos which faced us before the war and we shall come out very badly in the fight. It is, therefore, of the utmost importance that we should get down to discussions and to agreements, so far as possible, and should make the necessary plans. The White Paper forecasts legislation. It does not specifically state upon what points legislation will be required, but undoubtedly a good deal of legislation is involved in the carrying out of the proposals of the White Paper and I should like to know whether it is contemplated that any legislative Measures will be brought forward in the near future.
In the transitional period we shall undoubtedly have a shortage of labour and, consequently, an inadequate supply of goods. That will be general throughout the country, but it is quite possible—and the White Paper contemplates that possibility—that in certain areas there will still be unemployment, particularly in areas which during the war were provided with war work and which, before the war, were Special Areas. To remedy that position, the White Paper contemplates that key industries should be encouraged to go to certain development areas where it is necessary to obtain diversity for the purpose of securing employment. In my view the method laid down in the White Paper will be inadequate. Unless it is possible to direct industry to go to areas where it is necessary, I doubt very much whether the desired object will be secured. I do not think you are going to get your object merely by using persuasion.
The White Paper lays down the general doctrine of maintaining the spending power of the nation and attaches con-

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siderable importance, in times when unemployment appears to be threatened, to being able to secure capital expenditure on the part of public and private undertakings, local authorities and public utilities. My right hon. Friend said that the power of securing capital expenditure by private undertakings was a very difficult one. I agree that it is, and I am very doubtful how far it will be possible to secure agreement generally on the part of private undertakings to expend capital moneys at the time when it will suit the Government. After all, a private undertaking exists for the benefit of its shareholders. The time when the nation would prefer that it should incur its capital expenditure is not necessarily the time when the undertaking itself would wish to incur that expenditure. I foresee considerable difficulty and conflict between the two interests, and I am a little doubtful whether my right hon. Friend will get the required result. Take, for example, railway companies. I do not know what control the Government will have over their capital expenditure, but, if the railway companies were publicly owned, there would be an enormous opportunity for timing correctly the capital expenditure they will inevitably have to incur in bringing railways up to date, electrifying them and making them more useful to the country.
Mr. Bevin: I classified railways in the same category as public utilities for this purpose.
Mr. Silkin: If the public utilities are in private hands my argument still remains. My right hon. Friend will not have the same control over their capital expenditure as if they were publicly owned. That is one of the reasons why we, at this time, advocate the public ownership of these large undertakings and public utilities.
Mr. Alexander Walkden: And have railways on the same plane as London Passenger Transport.
Mr. Bevin: I tried to explain, without attempting to set out what we describe as public utilities, that certainly railways, docks and that kind of thing all come under the term "public utilities."
Mr. Silkin: So long as railway companies are privately owned my right hon. Friend will not be able to control the timing of capital expenditure in the
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national interest. It will be incurrred at the time when it will suit the railway companies. It is natural that it should be so. I should like to know what powers it is proposed, in default of the public ownership of the railways, to secure in order to ensure that capital expenditure which is so vital a factor in the success of the scheme will he incurred at the time when it is most in the public interest. The other method of capital expenditure is by agreement with local authorities and public utility undertakings. My right hon. Friend admitted that it would be very difficult to control the expenditure of local authorities. If the object is to secure capital expenditure rapidly when he can see the danger of unemployment, I am very much afraid he will not get it through local authorities with their existing powers, because from the inception of a scheme until someone is actually at work an it may well take several years. In the case of the London County Council they have to bring forward a Money Bill and get it passed by this House. I wonder whether the House would like to give the London County Council power to spend capital money without coming to the House.
Sir Percy Harris: As I understand it, the idea is to give powers for a particular purpose, and for the Government to encourage the use of those powers only in time of unemployment and trade depression. Is not that the idea?
Mr. Silkin: It may be so, but the fact remains that the capital expenditure of all local authorities is controlled, quite properly, year by year, and they have to come either to Parliament or to the Minister to get it approved, and it is a fact, with all the machinery involved, which I admit can be speeded up, that it takes a very long time before you can begin on the project. Then many objects which it might appear would provide a great opportunity for labour do not in fact do so when you come to look at them closely. I remember the Charing Cross Bridge Scheme, which was to cost£12,000,000. It was encouraged by the Government because it was regarded as a very desirable and important traffic improvement, and also because it was thought it would provide work on a considerable scale. When we looked into it we found that it would provide work for 730 people on the spot, though it would also

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have repercussions on employment in the provision of material. You might double or treble that number but, if you trebled it, you would only have employment for 2,000 people for an expenditure of£12,000,000. It is very disappointing.
Probably my right hon. Friend is relying on the speeding up of such things as housing. I visualise that for many years to come local authorities will be engaged right up to the hilt in providing housing and carrying out other duties, such as providing new schools, which they will be under an obligation to do under the Education Act, new hospitals in connection with the extended medical service and so on, and it will be very difficult at short notice to get them to do any more. Moreover, it is asking the local authorities to embark upon considerable increases in their rates at a time when conditions are beginning to deteriorate. That is, of course, the time when people draw their horns in and retrench, and it will be very difficult from the public point of view to justify increasing the burdens on people just when things are beginning to go badly. It would require a good deal of political courage to face the ratepayers with that position. Local authorities will be unwilling to jeopardise their public influence by imposing additional burdens at a time when the public will need to be relieved of them.
I should like to say a word about the social insurance scheme. Of course, that is a very quick way of pumping in a certain amount of consumption expenditure. It can be done at very short notice, this reduction of contributions. It will have its effect in increasing spending power, but on any basis, certainly on the example given in the White Paper, it will be quite inadequate to do anything substantial. While it will be a move in the right direction, I doubt whether it will do as much as my right hon. Friend hopes. I should have thought you could do very much more by juggling, if I may use the term, with Income Tax. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is very favourably situated for doing this with the Pay-as-you-Earn scheme. He can regulate changes in Income Tax at short notice and, though it may be heterodox to contemplate the possibility of having changes in the Income Tax during the year, nevertheless it has been done during the war, when we
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have had two Budgets in one year. I see no reason why the right hon. Gentleman should not have a second Budget during the year if it should appear to be desirable to bring about changes in Income Tax for the purpose of securing greater expenditure.
I have made these observations because they strike me as showing possible weaknesses in the White Paper; nevertheless I give general approval to the principles laid down. It is obvious that, as the scheme proceeds, there will of necessity be changes in detail. Weaknesses will be discovered and they will be strengthened. Nevertheless, I hope the House will give its general blessing to the scheme and give directions to the responsible Ministers to get on with the preparations for carrying it out as quickly as possible and, if they do, I am sure that, regardless of political complexion, they will have earned the gratitude of everyone in the country.
Sir Granville Gibson: I feel that I must congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his statesmanlike speech. Though I do not agree with him politically, I hold very strongly that, no matter whether he pleases one side or the other, he says what he thinks is right and fair, and I honour him for it. There is no doubt that all sections of the House desire to see prosperity after the war, and the White Paper is tangible evidence of the Government's desire to help. But one cannot close one's eyes to the fact that all that is in the White Paper is purely speculative. There is very little in it that is based on experience of the past. Therefore, many of those points which are dealt with in the Paper may not, in days to come, come to fruition. My right hon. Friend dealt at some length with the importance of the export trade. As an industrialist I feel I should like to spend a moment or two on this point. The White Paper attaches very great importance to export trade and says that it is of paramount importance and necessary for maintaining our standards of life. I have been asking myself what positive steps the Government intend to take to increase our export trade. My right hon. Friend partly answered that question by saying that there should, first, be a steady home trade which keeps the overheads down—no doubt that is a sound policy—and that if we have not a steady home trade, it will be all the more difficult to produce goods

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for export at competitive prices for the remainder of the world.
The Minister said that the question of export trade must be dealt with immediately, or as soon as possible. I must say that I do not think the outlook is as bright as he painted it to the House, or as he thought it was, with regard to the future of the export trade. It is going to be a very difficult task. It has been estimated that, as the result of the decline in our overseas investments, we must, after the war, increase our exports by roughly£200,000,000 from what they were in 1938. That is a tremendous, a herculean task. We have also to put this point to ourselves, that you can only export if there are buyers. But buyers abroad, to a far greater extent than in the period of the last war, have become manufacturers in increasing numbers.
There is a delegation from the United States Government in this country at present to discuss the question of the allocation of certain primary products in my own industry between this country and America. The greatest difficulty with which we are faced is that in some countries, in India and South Africa, the consumption of these primaries has gone up at such an alarming rate that there is a definite shortage for the United States and this country. [An HON. MEMBER: "What are the articles?"] I do not mind saying what the articles are, but I always understood it was not considered good taste to mention one's own particular business in this House. As a matter of fact they are goatskins. Brazil, which exported 2,500,000 skins a year, is now only exporting 1,000,000. The same thing is happening in the Argentine where consumption has gone up, and Africa and Australia have become greater manufacturers.
We shall have to face these difficulties after the war and, therefore, I ask the House, How is this export drive to be undertaken? Despite what the Minister said about the necessity of exports being attended to as soon as possible, I feel that there is not the slightest encouragement for the export trade in this country to-day. It sometimes seems to me that every possible step is taken to prevent export trade. During the last 10 days, I have come across two cases in my own constituency, where firms which were in a position to export second hand material to
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various parts of the world, were refused licences to export, because of an agreement with the United States. The House knows perfectly well that that agreement was arrived at when Lend-Lease became operative. The United States then, rightly, asked us not to export goods into which entered these primary commodities, which we purchased from the United States. In the meantime, Lend-Lease in reverse has come into operation to an enormous extent, and it seems to me that that is one of the reasons why we should consider the desirability of terminating that particular Agreement, in order to allow us to export our goods to the various countries of the world. The United States is pushing ahead in many markets in the world and is getting her foot into these markets, which will make it very difficult for us after the war.
Mr. Silverman: Will the hon. Member explain how the export of machinery, which is designed to assist the country buying it, will help the export of manufactured goods in this country?
Sir G. Gibson: Even if we do not sell them our machinery, the firm that wants it will get it from somewhere. If you do not sell them yours, they will get it from somebody else.
Mr. Silverman: I represent the Lancashire cotton trade whose workers have had a bad time. When we try to persuade the employers to pay better wages they say that they have to compete with the Japanese trade, which pays very low wages. But who taught the Japanese how to do the work? How does that help our cotton trade?
Sir G. Gibson: If my hon. Friend would speak to the textile machinery manufacturers who are centred in Lancashire, he would find out how this country has benefited from the sale of those machines, although it does not follow that the cotton trade might. If Lancashire had not exported that textile machinery, it would have been bought from the United States, or from France or Germany. You cannot adopt the kind of policy suggested by the hon. Member, because it does not land you anywhere.
I will give another another case in point. It does not affect me personally, but many firms in my own industry have, at this moment, large quantities of goods

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in stock in their warehouses, and cannot get export licences to export them to any country of the world. There is no opening of any description for the sale of those goods in this country, because of the quota system operating at the moment. I say it is a wrong policy to stand in the way of export trade, when, in every direction, that trade is helpful to this country, and I have felt many times recently that, if the licensing department of the Board of Trade tried its best to murder export trade, it could not be more successful than it is at the present time. The only way to obtain maximum results from export trade is for industrialists to have their hearts in the work. At the moment, industry is actuated by patriotism and the desire to see this war brought to a successful conclusion. When the war is finished, the incentive in industry will be profit, because anybody who goes into industry knows that success in industry is measured by the profit one makes. After the war, it will be necessary for the Chancellor of the Exchequer very seriously to consider a reduction in taxation because, unless there is a reduction in taxation, it is not reasonable to expect industrialists to make an effort to extend their businesses.
When a man is in his fifties and sixties and has lost a little of the urge of youth, he will not want to lock his money up in bricks, mortar and machinery if taxation is so penal that there will be nothing left for him except simply work. Therefore, I suggest that the Chancellor should bear in mind that in normal times new enterprise will not spend large amounts of capital if taxation is so penal and harsh as to leave no profit.
With regard to the location of industry, I agree that a one-industry area is a misfortune in bad times, because if the industry is depressed the whole area is depressed. The White Paper says that steps will be taken to prohibit the establishment of new factories wherever they desire to be established. That is a dangerous policy to pursue. The direction of industry will not only be dangerous, but Government pressure might result in compelling a firm to go where from practical experience they know it is bad policy to go. I will give A personal experience. I am glad that
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the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell) is in his place, because it refers partly to him. I remember sitting in the House some years ago when, time after time, there were warm Debates on the question of the movement of a tin-plate firm of South Wales to Lincolnshire. The hon. Member will remember how he pleaded vehemently for the retention of the works in Wales, and said that it was not right or fair to build new works in Lincolnshire, and leave thousands of unemployed in South Wales. What happened? Richard Thomas & Co. had their iron-ore supplies in Lincolnshire, and they had the coal on the spot. Although I have no proof, I have always felt that either political pressure or financial consideration entered into the matter, but eventually they built their new works in Wales. I was informed at that time by a director of the company that every ton of iron-ore which was taken from Lincolnshire to Wales, cost 10s. to carry. That is not the way to run an industry economically. It is in such a case where the transference of labour might become operative.
At the end of the White Paper, there is a plea for co-operation between industry and the Government. There is no doubt in my mind that industry will respond to this appeal if they get a square deal and encouragement to face the tasks of the future. I hope that when the various provisions of the White Paper are placed before the House in the form of legislation, those of us who are connected with industry will do our best to play our part, in order that there may be a more amicable relationship between employers and employed than there has been in the past, and a more happy and contented people in this country.
Mr. Pethiek-Lawrence: In common with the hon. Member who has just spoken, and with other hon. Members and, I think I may say, the House as a whole, I listened with the utmost interest to the notable speech of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour in opening this Debate. He made us realise his life-long experience on this subject, and the great sincerity that he brings to bear upon it. I feel that it is a great privilege to take part in this historic Debate, and to be entrusted by my party not only to speak for myself, but, as far as I am able, to express their point of view. We support this Motion whole-

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heartedly, because, without reservation, we welcome the assumption by the Government of responsibility for employment. This attitude on the part of the Government is not wholly new, because they and the country as a whole have been moving for a long time past away from pure laissez faire in this matter. Looking back as I can do over 5o years of political experience, and remembering the time when Keir Hardie first came to the House, and was derided for suggesting that Parliament should interest itself in employment, I realise the immense distance that public opinion and the House of Commons have traversed since that time.
While according this welcome to the basic assumption by the Government, and finding a great deal in the White Paper with which we are in hearty agreement, we must make it quite clear that we do not accept the whole of its contents with the same unmixed satisfaction, and this for two reasons. In the first place, while there are many sentiments which are un- exceptionable, the positive proposals in the Paper are often nebulous and, to some extent, inadequate. We cannot, of course, complain of that, because this is a very large field, and it is natural that the Government should not be able, as my right hon. Friend himself said, to give us a blue-print at this stage. Further, we recognise the mixed parentage of this White Paper. It is all the more incumbent on us, holding the views that we do, to make quite clear where we stand on these matters. I shall not have time to detail it in full, but no doubt in the Debate it will be put forward by other speakers on this side. In the second place, we remain unconvinced that under a system largely of private enterprise, unemployment can be completely cured. I shall have other points to make with regard to that later in my speech. I may say at once that we are not so foolish as to imagine that, if we could socialise industry over-night—which, of course, we cannot, for one cannot socialise even a single industry except with considerable delay and forethought—there, is some magic about public ownership, that would turn a depressed industry into a prosperous one, or bring back into it a large number of those who had become unemployed.
What we do maintain, however, is that there is a vital difference between employ-
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ment created by private enterprise, and that created by the State. To the former, a man turned out of employment is one less burden on the wages bill. The private employer has no obligation, apart from the general obligation to pay his contributions to unemployment insurance, to keep a man thrown out of work, or his family, for one day after his employment contract runs out. Therefore, he is able to disregard entirely what happens to a man who leaves his employment. That is riot the case with the State. The State has no such easy way out. If a man is dismissed from his employment, the State must put on the debit side of the account, the cost of looking after that man and his family. So much for the position of the State, with regard to unemployment generally.
When you come to local unemployment and the location of industry, at the best the State can offer inducements or some form of direction to an enterprise, to establish itself in a distressed area. That inducement may be inadequate and private enterprise may say: "If I can only go to that certain place, I will not go at all." When it comes to public enterprise and employment, the State, if it is proposing to start something, can, of itself, directly, start in the place where it thinks it is important that activity should be commenced. In consequence, we are not favourably impressed with the
proposal that is mentioned in paragraph 14(f) of the White Paper, which states that factories, which have involved the State in the expenditure of many hundreds of millions of pounds—altogether well over£800,000,000 or something approaching£1,000,000,000—shall be handed over after the war to private enterprise, to use for its own purposes.
There is one other point to which I should like to address myself before I come to the main part of my speech, which I propose to devote to the general financial position. This remaining subject is the question of exports. I quite recognise the great importance of re-establishing the export trade of this country, not because I think exports are anything particularly desirable in themselves, but because we desire imports. We cannot have imports unless we have exports, arid we must have imports because in this country we neither grow all the food that we need to consume, nor, what is equally

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important from the point of view of industrial employment, do we grow the raw materials which are essential to our industry. I recognise to the full the value of exports, but there is a tendency in some quarters to exaggerate their importance. Some people talk as though exports were the only real trade, and that all the production and work inside a country meant something in the nature of taking in one another's washing and could not increase the real income of the country as a whole. Of course, that is nonsense, and only needs to be stated to be put in its proper place.
Foreign trade can only be successfully carried on, and our requisite supplies maintained, if we do not abandon at the end of the war the policy of bulk purchase which has [been so successfully pursued during the war. I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will endorse what I am saying on this point when he speaks to morrow. Bulk purchase and possibly bulk sale are the means by which the fundamental difficulties of price levels can be overcome. To take the most simple illustration: We want to buy our food from abroad in the cheapest markets. We want to give to our own agriculturists a price sufficient to enable them to give us such proportion of our food supply as we think it is necessary to grow in this country. It may well be that those prices are not identical. During the war we have realised that fact. I do suggest that one of the essentials in post-war development will be the continuance, and possibly the expansion, of bulk purchase, which seems to me the natural method of conducting this very important aspect of our economy.
I come now to the main thesis of this White Paper. As I see it there are several different kinds of unemployment. There is, in the first place, what I think the White Paper refers to as general unemployment, or mass unemployment, which broadly affects all trades and all localities. Then, in the second place, there is structural unemployment, which means that while some trades may be expanding, other trades are contracting, and that while you may have a general level of employment, you may have bad unemployment in a particular industry. Then there is local unemployment, by which employment may fall far below the general level in a particular locality. Finally, there is seasonal unemployment.
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Other hon. Members will, no doubt, address their remarks to different parts of that list. I shall confine myself to the first category, that is, to general or mass unemployment. Apart from that, there are two periods which the Government have rightly separated in this White Paper, the transitional period and the later period. I do not propose to say anything about the transitional period but shall confine myself wholly to the later period. I want to consider the responsibility for different parts of the social organism towards unemployment defined in that way.
First, with regard to finance. Finance has had, in the past, a double responsibility for unemployment. In the first place, it has, on occasions, actively promoted it. In the period after the last war, it deliberately pursued a policy of deflation. This was, primarily, the policy of the Bank of England, but the Government and the Parliament of the day acquiesced in it. The White Paper definitely repudiates this policy and undertakes that, after the present war, it will not be repeated. In particular, we are promised cheap money and stable prices. This is a great step forward, and it is one to which we give our full support. I may mention, incidentally, that the White Paper brackets stable wages with stable prices. If this merely means the prevention of the ups and downs to which the right hon. Gentleman referred in his opening speech, I take no exception to it, but if there is any suggestion that the share which labour will get from industry is not to rise appreciably above the pre-war level, then I, and I am sure those who are behind me, violently dissent from it. We believe that the share of labour in the product must and should increase, because that is the only means by which the standard of life can really go up.
Apart from promoting deflation deliberately after the first great war, financial authority has pursued, all down the last century, a negative attitude towards unemployment, which my right hon. Friend accurately described in his opening speech. It recognised no responsibility for counteracting the disastrous cycles of booms and slumps, with their terrible repercussions on employment. Perhaps I can best express the matter by using a word with which we have become familiar in another connection, the word "gap." During

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the war we have used this term, "the gap," to express the apparent excess of expenditure for war production and civil production, over the annual resources of the country as a whole. It was the object of the White Paper which Sir Kingsley Wood brought out, helped by Lord Keynes, and which the present Chancellor has extended, to show what the nature of the gap, if any, really was. In the later period after the war we shall have to face the possiblity of a gap of the opposite kind, the excess of productive capacity over the spendable income of the country, or, to put it in a different way, the attempt on the part of the community to save more than is being absorbed by physical new investment. This gap, if it occurs, as it did occur after the last war, produces automatic deflation. In the past, when this has arisen, finance has washed its hands of this problem. It is an essential part of the White Paper we are discussing to-day that instead of this negative policy, the Government for the future have the positive determined intention to close the gap.
Before coming to consider how this can be done, let us consider the part which private enterprise has played in the past. Confronted with falling prices, private enterprise not unnaturally tried to pull out of full production. It reduced employment and it reduced production. It abandoned capital construction, waiting for prices to fall still further. In this way it reduced purchasing power and aggravated the slump. Just as during the war, if expenditure exceeds potential income, the gap creates inflation, so in the post-war period, if potential income tends to exceed actual expenditure, potential income will not be earned, and deflation will ensue. That is one thing that private enterprise has done, and not unnaturally. But in some instances, private enterprise has gone further than that, and in order to raise prices and boost profits, combinations have restricted production. This is a criminal conspiracy against the community. How do the Government propose to tackle these two activities, or lack of activity in some cases, of private enterprise? I take the second matter first. If hon. Members look at the White Paper, in paragraph 54, page 19, they will find these words:
"The Government will therefore seek power to inform themselves of the extent and effect of restrictive agreements, and of the activities
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of combines; and to take appropriate action to check practices which may bring advantages to sectional producing interests but work to the detriment of the country as a whole."
I presume this means legislation, and fairly early legislation. If that is so, all I have to say in regard to it is that I hope such legislation will be adequate. If the combines are to continue to exist in their present form, I hope the powers will be adequate to control them and prevent these unsocial practices. In some cases, at any rate, I hope the Government will find it desirable to step in and take the place of the combines themselves, particularly if the restrictive practices are riot checked at the instigation of the Government.
Mr. Molson: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that point, may I point out that the beginning of paragraph 54 deals with the restrictive practices of trade unions and so on. Would he care to define his attitude to this matter?
Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I do not wish to occupy too much time on that point, but if the hon. Gentleman wants an answer, I suggest that he should turn to a paper called "Labour," in which there is an important article by Sir Walter Citrine on this White Paper, and he will see that Sir Walter Citrine quite frankly says that if there is co-operative action all round, the trade unions will have to consider practices which have been restrictive in the past, and will be quite ready to make their contribution to the social results.
Mr. J. J. Lawson: They have had to protect themselves.
Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I do not object to the interruption at all. It was an important point.
Having dealt with that point, I turn to the issue of general unemployment. In the first place, if the Government propose to intervene in this matter, the White Paper specifically suggests that they will need much fuller statistics. They will need, in fact, a barometer which will tell them the economic weather, in relation to which they have to take action. Therefore, I hope that the Government will be forthcoming in providing statistics for their own use and for that of the general

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public. Having got the barometer, and having decided what the economic weather will be, the Government are to take action to fill the gap and create the expanding economy for which the country is looking.
How do they propose to do this? In the first place they propose to give inducement to private enterprise and local authorities. My hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) made some very interesting points in that connection, and spoke of the local authorities who were induced to take action finding the money out of rates. I recall the remarks that the Treasury made some years back about the finding of public employment only taking away money that would have been spent on private employment. I do not think the action of the Government in inducing local authorities to undertake public work for which they are going to pay by increasing the rates would cure unemployment. If they are to do anything effective, they must borrow the money—that is the essence of the solution to the problem—and pay it back later on.
In the second place, the Government propose to undertake public works. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour showed in his speech how inadequate in the past, both the time of application and the amounts paid to cure unemployment by public works, had been. He said there were to be public works of a different kind in future. Some cross-current of conversation went on between him and my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) on that point. I am not very clear about what precisely the Government have in mind, but I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he speaks to-morrow, will extend the remarks of my right hon. Friend, and tell us a little more of what they have in mind. Personally, I see great difficulties in having a public works programme on a really large scale, which can be started in a hurry or stopped in a hurry. It is exceedingly important to have public works, housing, and all sorts of things, but it takes some time to start when there is a slump, and it will be exceedingly difficult to stop after the barometer goes up to "set fair" I shall want a lot of convincing that a public works programme can have quick results in a time of industrial slump, and that it can be stopped quickly after a boom. What I said about rates, applies equally to taxa-
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tion. If public works were to be paid for out of taxation, I do not think it would help employment.
The third Thing that the Government propose is to assist consumption and to encourage private enterprise to engage in capital expenditure. The method which they propose is to alter the insurance contribution. It is quite a bright idea on the part of the Government, and it has its advantages, because the immediate loss falls on a separate fund and not on the Exchequer, but I do not really think that it would go very far. I agree with what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham on that point. It is a very small amount: I think something like£25,000,000 a year. I may be wrong about that, but it is of that magnitude. What is wanted is not a matter of tens of millions, but, if the thing gets at all out of hand, hundreds of millions, to put it straight. The Government will have to think on a very much larger scale, if they want seriously to influence the unemployment situation. In that respect, it has been pointed out to me that there is a danger in saying that the better the employment, the higher the contributions should be. I do not know that that would seriously influence a big firm adversely. I agree that it may promote a little more employment than would otherwise be the case. With regard to the Government intervening to fill what I call the gap, so far as public works are concerned, it will have to be much more in the nature of the Tennessee Valley experiment than the public works to which we have been accustomed.
I come to the strictly financial point. Do the Government contemplate, or do they not, putting the Budget out of balance in the course of the year? The relevant quotation from the White Paper is in paragraph 74:
"None of the main proposals contained in this Paper involves deliberate planning for a deficit in the National Budget in years of subnormal trade activity."
I do not know whether hon. Members have read the article in this week's "Economist." If they have, they will recognise that if there is one section which betrays the mixed parentage of the White Paper more than another, it is this section on central finance. It is hardly too much to say that a definite statement—or a nearly definite statement—in one paragraph, is either entirely reversed, or seri-

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ously modified, in the one which follows it, and that goes on more or less through the whole section. I quite recognise that the Government, in starting out on this proposal to close the gap, are embarking on an uncharted sea. I appreciate that the Government cannot be too definite about it, and that there will be different shades of opinion, in the House and in the country, about it. Therefore, I do not complain about the contradictoriness of different sections of the White Paper, but I think it desirable to call attention to it, because the Government clearly have to make up their mind a little more definitely, on what they have in view.
Modern economic thought really comes to this: that, unless you definitely and deliberately unbalance the Budget in a time of depression, you will not do anything material towards creating employment by Government action, and closing what I call the gap. I admit that that is a very serious proposition. So long as the Budget must be definitely balanced every year, you had a strict rule, which you could obey or disobey; and if you disobeyed it you were held up as one who broke one of the established rules of finance. The moment you throw one of these rules overboard, you are like a person who has broken a moral code there is a danger that you may go entirely to pieces. I appreciate the perilous sea on which the Government feel they would embark, but it is no good saying, "We are going to teach people to swim; but there is a danger that if they go into the water they will get drowned, and, therefore, they must stay all the time on dry land." The Government must determine what rules, if any, they are going to impose in this matter. They must realise that it is necessary to have an expanding economy. An expanding economy means expanding finance, it means expending credit, and, I think, more than possibly it means expanding the public debt. That is not necessarily evil, provided it is watched and carefully guarded against abuse.
As I said on a previous occasion, a prosperous company is not one which does not expand its debt; it is one which does expand its debt. It is not a necessary evil for the Government to expand their debt. The question is—Are you going to set any limit to that expansion? If you do not, you may get into very serious trouble, and I commend the sug-
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gestion put forward in the "Economist," in which it is stated that there is no harm in expanding debt, provided that it is not expanded out of proportion to the growth in the national income. That may, or may not be, the right answer to the question, but it is one to which I ask the Government to address themselves. I ask them to tell us whether they do or do not agree with the dictum of the" Economist.' Do they, in spite of a good deal of talk, really come down on the side of unbalancing the Budget, not only for a single year, but for a period of years, and, if so, what limit do they propose to adopt?
I have dealt with this question at considerable length because I think it is of fundamental, basic importance in relation to the whole of this White Paper. I have not attempted to cover other questions, with which many of my hon. Friends are far more capable of dealing than I am. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when replying to-morrow, will say, with such caution as we know he will adopt, what the answer is. I will only say this in conclusion. I regard this White Paper as a milestone, but a milestone on a road is not the terminus of the road. It is a point to be reached and passed, and it is in that sense, that I welcome the introduction of the White Paper.
Sir George Schuster: There are very many points in the speech to which we have just listened to which I should like to reply, but I wish to raise another issue, and I will only put one point to my right hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. PethickLawrence). I cannot believe that he would not agree with the statement made by the Minister in opening the Debate to-day that he stands for reasonably sound finance. I am sure my right hon. Friend will agree that behind what can fairly be described as sound finance there lie realities which cannot be disregarded, and it would be disastrous if this country were to disregard these realities to the ruin of the country's credit or public confidence.
Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I have always taken the view that economic realities cannot be disregarded, but the principles of finance have been too rigidly interpreted.
Sir G. Schuster: I only wanted to clear up what was in my right hon. Friend's mind, because I think if he were to stand

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before the country as a supporter of deliberately unsound finance, it would be a very serious matter. The whole question is how we are to interpret the rules of sound finance. Obviously, they have been too rigidly and narrowly interpreted in the past, and we all recognise that we shall have to have a more liberal interpretation in the future, but I put it to him that it would be a somewhat disastrous doctrine to-day to advocate working deliberately for an unbalanced Budget as something good in itself. I think the words of the White Paper, if I interpret them rightly, had that in mind and proceeded to show how the main measures which it proposed do not involve the "deliberate" unbalancing of the Budget. I do not think I am in disagreement with my right hon. Friend on this, and I was very glad to hear the Minister of Labour say to-day that he did stand for reasonably sound finance. We have got to bear that in mind, although we recognise that a new interpretation is necessary.
I want to join with those who have given a cheer to this White Paper. I regard it as an epoch-making document. It is something which cheers my heart in that the Government have had the courage to declare their faith in a document of this kind. Further, I think the speech made by the Minister to-day was worthy of the White Paper. Like other hon. Members, I recognise, as the Government only too well recognise, that it is only a sketch, or perhaps I might call it a "mock-up", which has got to be developed into a working model. It is, in fact, all in the doing. If, then, I raise certain questions and want to know more as to how the doing is to be carried out, I do not do so as a critic of the Government, but merely as one wanting to strengthen the arm of those who have inspired this White Paper.
The White Paper, in paragraph 86, talks about strategy and tactics. That is quite a useful analogy, because I think that the methods of military thought, in appreciating a situation, are of considerable value and helpful to straight thinking. This analogy brings to my mind Lord Wavell's lectures on Generalship, in which he said that where the amateur strategist goes wrong is not in failure to appreciate the principles of strategy, which can be apprehended in a short time
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by any man with average intelligence, but in his ignorance of what he calls the "logistics" of war—the sense of what is practicable, knowledge of the mechanism of war, of movement, topography and supply. These are apt words as regards some of our economic planners. And I have some doubt about the "logistics" of the White Paper plans—whether they will get our forces to the right place at the right time, whether, in fact, we shall know what the right time is, and whether, in any case, the forces proposed are going to be adequate to deal with the situation.
I should have liked to have talked on that, but I want to deal with a second and greater doubt in my mind, and that is this—Does the White Paper show the right conception of the strategic task? Through all that I have to say there runs this very urgent plea—that it is time that we got away from general economic thesis to a realistic study of the British economic structure and of what is going to be the British problem. What will that be? An immensely formidable one—as was well appreciated in what the Minister told us earlier to-day. It is the problem of satisfying the demands which our people will make at home, and of keeping our place in export markets. That means higher standards for all workers in production, and a greater allocation of man-power than ever before to non-productive purposes, which we all accept, such as defence and education as well as more generous allowances to the old and infirm. And all this greater productive effort will have to be achieved in circumstances of difficulty never paralleled in our history. It is common knowledge now that imports are vital to us, and that, to support the volume of imports we had before the war, we need to increase our exports in volume by 50 per cent.—even if we can retain the same favourable "terms of trade" as before the war, which we may not do. That, I put it to the House, is a task which can only be fulfilled if we make the very best possible use of our resources, human and material, and if we can develop the highest possible industrial efficiency.
This then is my chief comment on the White Paper. It concentrates too much attention on levelling out ups and downs, too little on raising the whole level of efficiency in production. Too much on stabilisation: too little on progress. I

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recognise of course that there are several passages in the White Paper, which emphasise the need for efficiency—particularly the final paragraph, which says that
"the aim can only be achieved if the whole productive power of the nation is employed efficiently; it is not enough that it should be employed."
I welcome those words, but I want to see them not thrown in by the way at the end; I want to see them blazoned on every page—the leit motif of the whole composition. And I want to see practical recognition of their meaning in the measures that are being prepared. I cannot find it in the White Paper. Let me select a few passages to reinforce the point that I am making—which is, I repeat, that the one crucial task over-riding everything else is to work up the standard of British industrial efficiency and to make the utmost use of our resources, and that this is not fully recognised in the White Paper. First, then, I would take a matter which was referred to in a very good and highly commendatory article in the "Economist", which after saying that it would be unreasonable to expect more than a generalised sentence or two on the matter of industrial efficiency in a White Paper of this sort, since other reports are promised, went on to say that the Paper raises doubts "whether the magnitude of the task is appreciated" and that it is a little disturbing to see the Budget proposals for the amendment of taxation put forward as the main constituent of Government policy. I cordially welcome those proposals. They represent a very important step but we certainly cannot safely regard them as the only weapons in our armoury for stimulating the increase of efficiency.
Secondly, I find it somewhat disturbing that, in paragraph 18 dealing with the priorities in a transition period, an export drive is put first, civilian necessities second, and only after these comes the production of capital goods needed for restarting and re-equipping industry. An exact order of priorities may be difficult to work out precisely in every case—and we must of course devote something to the immediate supplying of our export markets, or we may lose them for ever. But I would like to have seen some sentence in the White Paper saying that while all these three things have to be considered together, nevertheless, there is one thing we are not going to neglect and
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that is allocating a due portion of resources to secure the first-class capital equipment of our industries.
Thirdly, I am disquieted at some of the things said in Part II dealing with local unemployment and the location of industry. In paragraph 25 there are three ways given in which the Government propose to tackle the problem: first, influencing the location of new enterprises; secondly, removing obstacles to the transfer of workers; and, thirdly, providing training facilities to fit workers from declining industries for jobs in expanding industries. But where is the justification for assuming that there are going to be any industries expanding sufficiently to absorb them? I get the impression from this whole section that the matter is being regarded too much as a reshuffling of an old lot of cards. That will not do. What we shall need is not a mere "New Deal" of the old lot of cards, but a new set of cards and a new game.
Mr. Evelyn Walkden: And a new team.
Sir G. Schuster: As a fourth point I had intended to draw attention to the significance given to the distinction between the period of transition and the long-term policy.
Sir P. Harris: My hon. Friend has used the word "game" and some hon. Members seem to misinterpret what he means by "game." Will he clear that up?
Sir G. Schuster: It was obvious to me that certain hon. Members might be interpreting my words to suit their doctrines, but that did not really worry me. We do want a new "game" in the sense that I intended and thought was clear to everybody. Our industry needs to be conducted in a new spirit appropriate to the era of epoch-making scientific and technological change that we are approaching, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend will agree, too, that we are approaching one of the most critical periods of the whole history of this country. I was, lastly, going to draw attention to the distinction drawn in the White Paper between the transition period and the ultimate long-term programme and I had wanted to emphasise that, although that distinction must obviously be drawn, the years of transition will be

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our years of opportunity to prepare for our long-term policy. I was going to plead that we should not have to look back on them hereafter as years which the locusts had eaten. But my right hon. Friend speaking earlier on recognised to the full the urgency of making the most of that time, so I need say no more.
Now, it is in line with all that I have been saying if I express the matter in another way and, using the jargon of economists, say that in my view the White Paper concentrates far too much on cyclical unemployment and too little on structural unemployment, with special reference to changes in external demand. I should be the last person to argue that we ought to shape our future policy merely with an eye to avoiding the mistakes of the past. But it is of value to look back on the lessons of the past, and it is certainly necessary to test the proposals in the White Paper by asking ourselves, How would they have worked in the conditions that we had to face in the years between the two wars? I maintain that it was the dislocation produced by the last war, the mal-adjustment of the economic structures of various countries, which meant to us the loss of some of our main export markets—I maintain that it was that which, added to the normal effects of cyclical fluctuation, brought unemployment to a degree which has now been recognised by people in all parties as intolerable—an evil intolerable in a Christian society. But it was that special additional margin which really made the difference.
And we must keep the significance of this in mind. If I take only three industries—coal, shipbuilding, including marine engineering, and textiles—I find—and the figures are well known—that just under 1,250,000 workers lost their employm4nt—that means to say, they had either to leave the industry or become unemployed—between July, 1924, and July, 1934. Now that was almost entirely due to the loss of foreign markets which our industry was not elastic enough to refill with other goods. When Lancashire's exports of cotton piece-goods dropped from 7,000,000,000 to 3,000,000,000 yards, when we lost half of our exports in coal, would any of the proposals of the present White Paper have found employment for the 334,000 textile
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workers who lost their jobs, or the 621,000 coal miners who had to look elsewhere than to coal mining for employment? Where would have been the "expanding industries" to which to go? Nowhere. And where will they be in the future? Nowhere, unless we reorganise our industries and take the lead and get right into the forefront of industrial advance in what is going to be an era of epoch-making change after the war.
Doubtless I shall be told that we shall not again have anything like the same concentration of structural unemployment in special areas—areas with all their eggs in one basket. That is true, but I put it to my right hon. Friend, that spread over the whole country, the combined effect of structural changes on our export markets will not be less. And our need to offset that effect will be much more urgent. We can only meet that need if we are prepared boldly to scrap old methods, and make the best possible use of our national resources—chief of which is coal, coal as a source of power or as a basis for chemical and other industries.
That leads me to another point. The key-note of the White Paper is that Government policy should be directed to bringing about conditions favourable to the maintenance of a high level of employment. "Conditions favourable"—that is certainly a vague phrase. How is it going to be interpreted? That is one of the questions I ask myself, and I put this to hon. Members opposite. Do not let us get into political controversies about private ownership or State ownership. Let us ask ourselves this question, a question which I believe would bring many of us together: First, what are the purposes required in the national interest which can be best achieved or only achieved by bringing in the organising power of the State? And secondly, what are the points at which it is best to decentralise if you are going to have effective execution? I believe, if we look at our national economic problem in that way, we shall find a very great measure of agreement and a way to go forward without sacrificing the essential liberties of the people of this country.
For the present I want to put this question to the Government: If it is found that the existing sectional interests of private enterprise do not fit in with the pattern which is needed for the opti-

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mum use of national resources by modern methods, that they cannot afford to scrap old plant and make new combinations, that they cannot afford to risk the millions required for pioneer plants in new processes, what then? Are the Government going to step in to mobilise the credit of the whole community, to stimulate pioneer work, to back new ventures in the pattern and on the scale required? I want an answer to that question. I do not ask for it at once, but I do ask to be satisfied that we are moving towards the right answers on the points that I have raised.
I can sum up quite shortly what I want at this stage from the Government. I want a review of the main foundations of the structure of British economy. I want a national inventory and an appreciation of the problems and of the possible courses ahead. It is no use saying that we cannot plan because we do not know what world conditions will be. We do know what we have got in our own resources, and it is on those that we shall have to live. If I know that British coal is going to be raised and utilised with maximum efficiency; if I know that the British iron and steel industry is to be brought into the forefront of modern progress; if I know that our power supply and transport are to be properly organised, then I should feel that we have a sound foundation for "conditions favourable" not only to full employment but to a rising standard of living. If on top of that, I knew that we had a ten year housing programme for 4,000,000 houses and all that that means, and a proper target for agricultural production, then I should feel that, without getting involved in the bureaucratic planning of all the details of our consumption and personal activities, there would be a solid foundation for progress, stability and activity. I want Government pronouncements on these matters, and over them all hangs that major question of how we are to keep our place or rather improve our place in export markets.
The Chancellor told me the other day, in replying in the Debate on International Monetary Policy, that the Government were confident that we could achieve a 5o per cent. increase in the volume of our exports. But how? I want to know. I want to know the basis for that confidence. I want to know it, not as a
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matter of inquisitiveness, but so that a lead may be given to our British industry from this knowledge and confidence of the Government as to what are the hopeful lines for expanding exports. What are the things on which they ought to be concentrating? So I repeat that I want an inventory of all British resources, a study of the British economic structure and the preparation of definite plans by Government working with industry to make the best both of our resources and our structure. I have little doubt that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Production if he were to reply would tell me that it is unreasonable to ask the Government, occupied with all their great cares, to prepare such things. It may be unreasonable, but that is no answer, because somehow or other it has got to be done. It has got to be done if we are to succeed in the task that lies before us.
There are many more subjects I would like to have covered, but I have taken too long. I believe we can on these lines find a way of progress which, as a Liberal, I could accept, because it would involve no sacrifice of essential personal liberties. I believe it is our duty, not only as Members, of this House, but in every walk of life where we influence our fellow men or carry responsibilities, to try to get together and find a way. I have told the Government to-day that I want to see more than is in this White Paper, but that is not because I do not support this White Paper. I want to pledge myself to support it and everybody who has had a hand in preparing it. I pledge myself as a Member of Parliament, I pledge myself in my position of responsibility for business undertakings, to co-operate in every possible way. If we all pull together and really face up to our problem, then I think we shall truly be able to say, as my right hon. Friend has said to-day, that we have set our feet on a new road of progress in civilisation.
Mr. Craik Henderson: I think that the House will appreciate the speech we have just heard and there are many points in it which it is well should be considered. I think it may be said however that the White Paper is limited to trying to find a remedy for unemployment. Undoubtedly we cannot find employment for people unless industry itself is efficient but it may be that

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this Paper has a more limited scope than my hon. Friend has said. However, I think this House will approach this Paper, as he said, as an epoch-making event. It is the first time that a British Government or, in fact, any other Government, have deliberately gone out to tackle the question of the lack of employment as a policy by itself.
Mr. MacLaren: The Labour Party did in 1929.
Mr. Craik Henderson: I am sorry then, and I withdraw my statement. I have always felt that this question of gross unemployment was one which must be tackled—or attempted to be tackled because it is not a problem for which it will be easy to find a solution—and I think the hon. Member for Walsall (Sir George Schuster) has certainly rendered a useful purpose in pointing out that the solutions in the White Paper will be useless unless we achieve at the same time greater efficiency in industry and proper methods of developing our industry.
I want to raise three or four questions which I think the White Paper leaves slightly obscure. I heard practically the whole of the speech of the Minister of Labour but I was out for a few minutes and during that time he may have mentioned the question of women. During the time I was here I did not hear him refer to them. What is the Government position with regard to this matter? Is the employment they have in mind to secure employment of the numbers engaged in industry just now? Obviously, after the war there will be a great many women who will want to go back to their homes—married women and so on. What exactly have the Government in mind with regard to the employment of women? Is it part of their policy that considerably larger numbers of women should be attracted to industry after the war than were employed before the war, and does the scheme contemplate finding employment for a greater proportion of members of the community than was employed prewar? These are points on which we should have some enlightenment. I would have liked to have dealt with the transfer of labour, the suggested power to direct industries to certain localities and the restriction of private capital investment, which are very important questions, but I want to be brief so I will turn to the
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points which I think most important in the White Paper, and ones on which I would like some elucidation.
Public works expenditure is undoubtedly essential if we are to attempt to overcome periods of depression. I wonder whether, under the scheme adumbrated in the White Paper, there would not be too much of a time lag through working it through local authorities. Would it not be better that such expenditure should be arranged and carried out by the central Government, otherwise it seems to me that there would be considerable delays? The whole point of any such scheme must be that you act promptly. If depression and lack of confidence develop you get to the stage when it is too late to act properly. Therefore, you must be prepared to act quickly, and I should have thought that it was absolutely necessary that powers should be retained by the central Government. I think we all feel that one of the most important things in connection with public works expenditure is that it should be on useful work. Nothing is worse for the country and for workmen than that men should dig a hole, and subsequently have to fill it up. It is soul-destroying and bad for everybody. Schemes should be worked out in advance by the Government. We should have schemes to assist our industries and make them more fit to meet competition. These schemes should be pigeon-holed in readiness to be pulled out when emergencies arise.
I welcome very much the proposal of deferred credits. I urged this in the Debate on the Budget Resolutions, because I believe that this method is the simplest solution—although it may be only a partial solution of the problem. The idea that when trade is booming a certain sum of money should be retained which would be released at the appropriate time is a good one. There is, however, one danger in the scheme, to which I will refer in a moment, but, as I have said, I welcome the proposal, as holding out great prospects of helping to solve this difficult problem by increasing spending power at the right time.
Mr. Bowles: Does the hon. Gentleman think that the State can save money?
Mr. Craik Henderson: I do not quite know what the hon. Gentleman means by

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that remark. At any rate, it has nothing to do with what I am saying, that to withdraw a certain proportion of spending capacity at one time and use it later to increase spending capacity is a good idea. I am a little perturbed about paragraphs 81 and 83 of the White Paper. Paragraph 81 states:
"The Government intend to establish on a permanent basis a small central staff qualified to measure and analyse economic trends and submit appreciations of them to the Ministers concerned."
In paragraph 83 there are suggestions as to the sort of statistics that will be required. Well, if previous history goes for anything that small central staff before long would be an enormous staff, and the number for forms which industry will be required to fill up will develop into a flood of paper. We all know the saying about taking in each other's washing. I hope the Government does not mean to give employment by asking people to fill in forms. That is not the sort of employment that any of us what to see, and I hope that the desire for form filling will be kept under control. I hope the House will watch both the small central staff and the kind of information which will be required.
I should like to have some sort of assurance about paragraph 44, because, as expressed, it seems rather dangerous. It states:
"Public expenditure on current services, including national defence, will also be fairly constant as a rule, unless the Government decide as an act of deliberate policy to vary expenditure on some items in order to compensate for swings in other parts of total national expenditure."
I hope the Government will not treat our national defence as a factor in dealing with unemployment. Our national defence must be treated on its merits. It would be a very serious proposition indeed, if we started to call men to the Colours, or dismiss them, or spend or did not spend money on armaments merely for economic reasons and not because of our defence requirements. There is another point on which several Members may be out of sympathy with me, a point on which the Government seem to have realised the danger. Paragraph 86 states:
"…the restraining measures appropriate to a boom may meet with opposition unless they are seen and understood as part of a continuing policy for maintaining employment, and accepted as the price that must be paid
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for the success of that policy over the long period."
I have a high regard for Front Benchers—I do not mean only this Front Bench; Ministers generally have as high a standard of integrity as any other body in the country, but in this White Paper we are placing political power in the hands of the Front Bench which I should not be prepared to leave to a choir of angels. Can you imagine any Government which would be willing to collect from the taxpayers a certain sum of money with the object of preventing them having too much spending power in their pockets being willing to leave it to their successors to disburse it? Can you imagine any Government facing a General Election in a year or so, being willing to withdraw money from the public and allow their opponents to spend it? Can you imagine that Government in the year of a General Election, being willing, if they find it necessary—I am not dealing with the question whether it is good or bad—to transfer labour from one part of the country to another, or can you imagine that Government being willing to increase contributions at such a time under social insurance? [An HoN. MEMBER "That would wait until after the election."] And before the election the tendency would be to reduce the contribution whatever the circumstances were.
It seems to me that questions like that —I could enumerate others—are very dangerous to entrust to any Government. It is worth consideration whether those powers should not work on a fixed basis. It is suggested in the White Paper that contributions should vary with the amount of unemployment. I do not think it would be a bad thing if it was laid down that, with a certain increase or decrease in employment, there should be a certain rise or fall in the contribution, so that it is taken out of the hands of individual Governments. It is a very difficult thing to ask any Government to deal with as an abstract question of right or wrong. Actually, of course, it would be an advantage, if that power of deciding when a sum that had been held back, should be paid out, was placed in the bands of some nonparty body. This is a matter which requires very careful consideration.
Our puzzlement over paragraphs 58 and 59 has been increased by the Minister's statement. Paragraph 58 says:

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"In ordinary times the volume of capital expenditure is influenced by movements m the rate of interest. If the cost of borrowing money is high, some projects which are not profitable at that rate will be held back. When it falls again, those projects will be brought forward and others will also be taken in hand."
Paragraph 59 says:
"For some time after the end of the war it will be necessary, as explained in Paragraph 16, to maintain a policy of cheap money. Thereafter, the possibility of influencing capital expenditure by the variation of interest rates will be kept in view."
That seems to contemplate a departure from low interest rates and cheap money which has been the policy of the Government for some time. The Minister stated categorically that it was the intention of the Government to continue the cheap money policy. What is the policy of the Government with regard to this matter? I should have thought there was no question that a cheap money policy for ten years after the war would be absolutely essential. There will be hundreds, if not thousands, of millions of pounds of war loans falling in during that period, and, if we are not careful, we may find ourselves, as after the last war, paying interest at 7½per cent. We could thus add enormously to the interest payable on our Debt. I think this is a very serious point which will require careful consideration. I think also that the whole scheme has to be considered in relation to international monetary control. We have already seen the reaction from some of the New York papers. This policy cannot be taken in a vacuum. It has to be considered in relation to many other points as well and particularly the International Monetary Scheme. I think we should get a little more enlightenment on the subject.
I welcome this Paper perhaps even more for the fact that it is an attempt to deal with the problem than for the actual terms. Some of its proposals are, without question, admirable. Some others want more explanation. We are entering on this voyage on unknown seas and we must be prepared to run up against difficulties and dangers, but I am convinced that, if the country is united in desiring to find a remedy for the problem, and is patient, some solution can be found I wish the Government all success in their endeavours.
Mr. Moelwyn Hughes: The House welcomed the contribution of
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the hon. Member for Walsall (Sir G. Schuster), and so did I. The House will like it even more, when I tell hon. Members that he raised two major queries on the White Paper which I wanted to raise myself, and that I will not repeat them. In general terms, I welcome the document. Before the Government produced it, we had all thought about other documents, and those that I studied were "Full Employment and the Financial Policy of the Labour Party," a document published by a group of Fabians. It is true that you will find in those documents, a certain emphasis on expanding the sphere of public ownership in industry, and a certain emphasis on the re-control of our financial system but, if we leave those two items aside, I am astounded to discover that the White Paper bears distinct traces of having been decidedly influenced by hese documents, or by thoughts upon parallel lines. I should be interested to know whether the Fabian Missionary was the Minister of Labour, or the Deputy Prime Minister, or even the Prime Minister himself, reverting to his more Radical days. Such is the coincidence, that I find little difficulty in accepting the main lines of the White Paper.
It appeals to me too, because it is an explosive document. It is surprising how many explosions there are in it. It explodes Tariff Reform completely. Here we are set with the task of trying to create employment in this country and of obtaining the material which is to come in to the extent of the consumable market here. Coming from the source from which it does, a Government overwhelmingly supported by Tariff Reformers, it is astounding to find that there is not a single suggestion in the White Paper that this instrument, which has been blazoned for years as the cure for unemployment and as a proper method of controlling trade and imports, does not even receive a gentle pat on the back. The document very delicately avoids the question of interfering with such tariffs as now exist.
It also explodes Free Trade completely. It proposes, for the regulation of our economy after the war, to retain the controls which are necessary in order that we may have the raw materials and food that we selectively require. It does not propose to allow anybody in this country to go abroad and buy anywhere he likes,

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what quantity he likes of what raw material or food he likes. The controls are still to be retained. If the White Paper went to its logical conclusion, it would say in terms what it says by implication that the last temples of Free Trade in this country have gone completely out of business, and will never be opened again. The commodity exchanges of this country have gone. The Cotton Exchange, the Atlantic, the Baltic and other exchanges will never have room to function in the economy of this country, if the policy of the White Paper is accepted by the House. It is true that we are employing their staffs and their operatives, at a fairly remunerative level, but all that can be said is that we are giving them a prolonged and bounteous breakfast on the morning of execution.
The White Paper is also somewhat explosive of Socialism. One of the major difficulties which the Paper envisages in controlling the economy of this country in order to secure full employment is the field of private investment. It says so in more than one place. It is the largest section of economy and it is the one which is the most intractable and difficult to control. One would have thought that when it is accepted that public investment is controllable, the logic of the situation would be to reduce as much as possible the intractable and to expand the sphere of public investment and, therefore, reduce the sphere of private investment. The White Paper rejects the logical conclusion of Socialism. There are one or two incidental matters about which the White Paper is explosive. It has ruined nine out of ten of the speeches made in support of war savings up and down the country. It says, in definite terms, not that people should subscribe money and save in order to buy aeroplanes, warships and tanks, but that the call of the Armed Forces for munitions is limited only by the availability of labour and other physical resources. Nine-tenths of the propaganda used for war savings has thus been exploded. It is worth drawing attention to one other minor explosion. The Paper explodes the very platform which brought hundreds of Members on the other side to this House.
Mr. Kirkwood: They will never come back again.
Mr. Hughes: Not on the same footing. They came back here in 1931, by telling
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the world that the reason for the slump was the failure of the Labour Government. I advise them to turn to the White Paper, where they will find this sentence on page 18:
"In 1929 the depression in British industry was transmitted to this country from abroad."
It was not, then, the invention of the Labour Government of the day. I welcome the document because of its explosive contents.
That is not enough, however, and it is on the constructive side that we should lean. I am sorry to say that in the introduction to the White Paper the Government appear only to contemplate or to think that their scheme only contemplates a very small measure of legislation. In truth, a close examination of this scheme indicates clearly that a considerable mass of legislation is urgently necessary if its terms are to be implemented. Speaking for my colleagues on this side of the House, I say frankly to the Government that the test of their sincerity with regard to this policy will be patently revealed by the extent to which they implement it in legislation. I go even further, and say that the Government must not rely in their employment scheme upon the use of wartime Regulations. I will give the House an example. In the Debate on 7th June, upon the location of industry, the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade said:
"We reserve the right to use those powers … by declining to give industrial building permits in any particular areas. Those industrial building permits must continue for some time to come."
I would remind the House that those building permits arise under powers given to the President of the Board or to other Departments under Defence Regulations, and they are given for war-time purposes. He went on:
"It is idle for anyone to think that this particular form of Government Regulation can be swept away overnight, or can be swept away when we have merely got the surrender of Germany. It cannot, perhaps, be swept away even when we have the surrender of the Japanese enemy also."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th June, 1944; Vol. 400, c. 1382–3.]
These Defence Regulations, and the Orders published under them, were authorised by this House only for the period of the emergency. Are the Government going to rely on these Regulations, and so continue the period of the emer-

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gency, rather than face this House with specific legislation to enable them to carry out what they want to do? The Government must make up their minds. They will need these powers—the Minister and his successor will need them—beyond the period of the emergency. They must be based upon Acts of Parliament passed in this House.
The White Paper promises certain definite legislation. I need not repeat it, but it deals with the control of trusts, combines and trade associations. In specific terms, the Government say that they will ask this House for powers to deal with them. I ask them to do it quickly. They must have these restrictive agreements registered and examined, and try to control them if their object is anti-social. That is all we can do. I am glad that the Government did not try what was unsuccessfully tried in America, a form of anti-trust legislation, because you can use compulsion to make people not compete but there is no form of compulsion known to man that will make people compete when they do not want to. You cannot introduce competition by law among people who do not want to compete. It must be done by positive Regulation, and the powers must be sufficient to cover not only the combine but must extend to every type of monopoly.
A combine is not the only form of monopoly. You may have the monopoly of one single individual. Powers to examine must be directed to monopolies of every shape and kind, and the powers which the Government seek must include power to legislate for prices. After all, the Government have had plenty of experience. They have had no difficulty with price regulation committees and examination of costings. Government contracts through the Ministry of Supply, the Ministry of Aircraft Production and the Admiralty, all have clauses in them making it possible for the Government to fix fair prices, but, to judge from the reports of companies in the financial columns of the newspapers, that method of assessing prices and profits has not been too harmful. Beyond the immediate legislation that they have promised, I ask the Government: Do you really know enough about the extent to which these combines, cartels, rings and price-fixing arrangements exist? "The Times," in
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an article on 15th June, dealing with the subject of price-fixing associations said:
"Probably no one knows, and none but a much-needed official inquiry could elicit the extent to which associations do temper the 'competitive process."
That means that all these arrangements are able to exact from the public higher prices than they should.
These combines are a definite danger to the public. Though the White Paper says that they are not necessarily so, experience goes to show that whenever discoveries are made about them there is always an anti-social element. They are against the efficiency of this country. We want to be able to use all the brain power and technical skill of our people, but how can we do this when thee rings and associations buy up good ideas and then lock them up so that nobody can use them? What happened to the three-penny incandescent lamp that would last almost for ever, or the endless match that you could strike 150 times? Those and other inventions have been bought by the rings and locked up in a safe so that the public should not have them.
I will give one example of the way combines operate. The other day, in one of the biggest research laboratories in the United States, the Dupont laboratory, the scientists discovered a new pigment. They were researching for a pigment for paint, but they found, for the first time, a pigment capable of colouring not only paint but textiles. What a wonderful achievement. What a great advance. There was a certain price-fixing arrangement governing pigments for paints at a somewhat low level, while another ring controlled colourings and pigments for the colouring of textiles, at a considerably higher level. Suppose someone bought pigment for paint and then went round the corner and used it for textiles. The result would be cheaper clothes for everybody. The textile combine turned to the scientists and said: "Go back to your laboratory and put something into it that will make it impossible for textiles. We won't touch it, unless it is to be used only for paint." That is an authentic instance. How can we have the best productivity from industry in this country if inventions and discoveries are to be wasted by those who control combines and cartels? Let us clear the way for the export trade by giving brain-power some of its freedom of action.

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I am going to give the Government a challenge on this matter of exports, and a specific suggestion whereby they could produce an extremely valuable export which would make some part of the£400,000,000 that they want. When the war is over, there will be only two countries in the world with sufficient capital to make motor cars, ourselves and the United States. [An HON. MEMBER: "And Canada."] For this purpose, Canada is very largely subsidiary to the United States. There is an enormous post-war market—for what? Following the best advice I can get, I believe that the kind of motor car that could be sold all over the world after the war would be one from 15 to 20 horse-power. What are we building in this country? Before the war 62 per cent. of our motor cars were of 10 horsepower or under. They were not cars that we could sell outside this country at all. If my information is correct, motor manufacturers are busy experimenting behind closed doors to devise a 6 horsepower motor car for after the war. In all seriousness, where do we think we are to find an export market for these automatic perambulators?
The responsibility is the Government's. We can produce the best cars and the best technical skill in the world. The Battle of Britain was won by the pilots and the designers of the engines. We have the finest engineering skill in the world, but we also have the horse-power tax and the weight tax. Imagine the designer of the Merlin engine producing up to 1,500 horse-power. Suppose he said: "With a slight alteration of the cylinders I can get this Merlin engine from 1,500 to 1,800 horse-power." Standing at his elbow would he the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who would tap him, and say: "Mind you, if you do, that is another£300 on it." A tax has to go on the nose of the Spitfire. Designing a new type of wing, designing a new fuselage, the best streamlining, the best equipment, a little bit of additional armament—and "Weight," says the Chancellor. "Put it on the weighbridge. Let us see whether it is more than 2½ tons. If it is, up it g9es to another grade of taxation." Could we have produced these machines under those conditions? Yet those are the very conditions under which we are asking the motor industry of this country to produce one of the most valuable exports we can have.
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I expect the Chancellor to-morrow to tell us what his programme is with regard to the one specific item of the possibility of increasing our exports. In this regard, before I leave motors, I would reinforce the argument about combines by quoting to the House one or two figures. Over two-thirds of the cost of a British motor car is made up of materials, semi-fabricated and otherwise, which are controlled by rings, combines and cartels. Look at the result. You can buy a steering wheel in America for 3s. 8d. They have not a ring there. Under the ring in this country it costs 6s. 8d. A manufacturer wants a dynamo. In America, where there is no ring, it costs 15s., as against 23s. 11d. here, where we have the advantage of a ring. In America a starter for a car can be obtained for 13s. 13d. Under the ring price in this country it is 285. 6d. To come to bigger components—steel body sheets for making the body of a motor car—the American price is£13 10s. a ton. In this country, with the advantage of the Iron and Steel Confederation, the motor manufacturer has to pay£21 a ton. I could go on with these figures. What encouragement are they to our export trade? We should control these rings and cartels to give this section of the export trade a proper chance to function. There are numerous other instances, but I will not weary the House.
That is one instance where the Government ought to state what it is proposed to do about the export trade. It is only one facet of this vast programme. I shall not deal with any other aspect, but I want to reinforce what was said by the Minister of Labour to-day. Why is it that twice in my lifetime I have seen plenty of work for everybody, more work than men can be found to do? Each of those two periods has been during a war. It is no good telling me that we cannot get full employment under a capitalist system. Give them a war and there is full employment. What gives full employment? It is what the Minister of Labour said, that there is a common objective. Everybody is agreed that we have to put every effort we can into defeating the Germans, subduing the Nazis. The same is true of this policy of the Government for solving unemployment. We must pledge ourselves to a common objective, not to give a man work, not to provide him with something to do, but to lift the whole status of our people. Give to the full extent everything

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we can produce; if we cannot sell it, give it away. That is what is done in wartime, either to ourselves or the other peoples of the earth. That is an objective—raising our own people, raising the peoples of the earth where we can. Inspired by that objective, this policy can go a long way towards solving the problem of unemployment.
Sir Cyril Entwistle: I do not know who drafted the White Paper, but its diction does not seem to bear the imprint of the regular civil servant mind. I expect that Lord Keynes had something to do with the drafting. I think we are all agreed it is a brilliantly written document, and much more interesting to read than the normal White Paper. To my constituents when I have had to declare my viewe on industrial policy, and what I thought were the future prospects of post-war trade, I have always called myself an expansionist. By that I meant that the future standard of living must depend on the total that the country can produce. That has been limited in the past by faulty distribution and the inability to adjust consumption to production. I am very glad indeed to see that the White Paper uses the very word "expansionist," and that the Government are committed to an expansionist policy. That, I think, is the main reason why it has been so welcomed in all parts of the House.
I shall delay the House only for a very short time, and the point I want to deal with is Chapter 1, which refers to the export trade side of our policy. The White Paper quite candidly admits that it has no specific practical proposals to put forward on the expansion of our export trade. It points out how essential is the expansion of exports. We are told we have to increase our exports by at least 50 per cent. over what they were before the war. The measures mentioned in the White Paper as having been taken up to the present by the Government in looking after the export trade are: Entering into the Atlantic Charter, the Mutual Aid Agreement with the United States of America and the Hot Springs Agreement. All of these are admirable so far as they go, but the White Paper admits quite frankly they are only a statement of general principles and intentions, which are admirable, but which
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will bear no fruit until they are actually implemented in some practical form. What surprises me about the White Paper—and it is chiefly to make this point that I have got up to speak—is that it does not mention one achievement which I think is one of the best to the credit of this Government, and that is the International Wheat Agreement.
The International Wheat Agreement is a practical measure for carrying out the very thing which is stated in a general form in the principles of the Atlantic Charter, the Mutual Aid Agreement, and the Hot Springs Agreement. It tackles one specific commodity, wheat. It estimates the total productive capacity of the world and the total consumptive capacity of the world, and provides for the whole of the wheat-producing countries to share, in certain percentages, that production, which is to be adjusted, as needed, to the consumptive capacity of the world. In my view, for the future prosperity of the world, the whole of foreign trade will have to be carried out, at any rate as regards the basic commodities, on lines similar to that.
I suggest that there are practical measures, which the Government could institute straight away, to attain the principle to which they have adhered, with other Governments, of fostering the mutual interchange of the maximum quantity of goods between nations. That is being done with regard to wheat; and why should it not be done with regard to other basic commodities, all the main commodities? I do not say that it would be suitable for every specific article which enters into international trade. There will have to be a certain balance and margin for changes of fashion, invention, and so on; but that should be subject to the principle that no country, in the long run, can sell more than it is prepared to buy. That principle is acknowledged in the White Paper on Monetary Policy. I know that the White Paper has been criticised, because it accepts gold as the basis of money, but there is one cardinal point—and the important thing is that the United States has agreed to it—that certain practical measures immediately come into force when one country is attaining the position of being a permanent creditor country and others are becoming permanent debtor countries.
We must have practical measures for arriving at the desired end that each coun-

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try must be prepared to sell only as much as it is able to buy. We cannot just say, "We will have a general formula on those lines"—although that would go a long way. We must have practical measures for seeing that there is a maximum interchange of goods. We should take each basic commodity in turn, and have negotiations between the industrialists and the Governments of as many nations as possible, starting with the United Nations, and allowing any other nations which are willing to come in. Then there should be agreement on how the world's production of that commodity should be shared out between the different countries, The objection might be raised that all this would take a long time; but we could have negotiations about all the commodities taking place simultaneously, because not the same people have to negotiate for each commodity. There would be an industry, concerned with one commodity, negotiating with the corresponding industry in another country, exactly as the negotiations with regard to wheat were carried on.
I have spoken on this matter twice before. I do not often speak in the House, but this is one of the subjects on which I have laid very great stress. I think it is the most important of all subjects for the future prosperity of the country, and of the world, and I suggest that the Government should immediately initiate negotiations, to be undertaken by the industrialists in this country, having Government representatives with them, and the consumers' interests being thoroughly represented—I am not suggesting anything to the contrary. Those various negotiations should take place simultaneously. The trouble in the past has been that however much you might desire a particular system of internal economy in your own country, you were not at liberty to introduce it because you were dependent on your foreign services. We all know that we have to import a certain minimum quantity of goods in the form of food and raw materials, and that, in order to pay for them, we have to export a certain quantity of goods. Hitherto, we have had to compete for those exports in the markets of the world, and we have had to reduce prices to a level that foreigners were prepared to pay. The cotton trade knows how impossible that was when it had to compete with such countries as
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Japan. We know that highly-paid labour, although generally more efficient than lowly-paid labour, is not so commensurately more efficient than lowly-paid labour, where equally good machinery is available in both cases, as to enable us to compete with countries that pay sweated wages.
I am glad to think that the hon. and learned Member opposite, although he said that the White Paper exploded Tariff Reform, admitted that it equally exploded Free Trade. The doctrine of Free Trade is antipathetic to the whole policy of the White Paper. Hitherto our internal economy was dictated by the conditions of our foreign trade. Where a country had an adverse balance of trade, it had no alternative but to take restrictive measures and to drag down its prices, to enable it to compete in foreign markets, and, as the main element of cost was considered to be wages, the attack started on the wage level. Unfortunately, the method that had to be adopted to create lower wages was unemployment first. That was the only method available to us for correcting an adverse balance of trade. It is recognised that that should not be the case. The White Paper on Monetary Policy lays down, as a condition, that no country shall be forced to keep to the exchange rate that is fixed, if that means that that country cannot pursue its own domestic policy and keep up the standard of living at which it is aiming. That cannot be done if we are dependent for our export trade on the old-fashioned method of competing in foreign markets. Our foreign trade will have to be got by agreement, on bulk lines, quantitatively. We have shown the way with the Wheat Agreement. I suggest that we should follow that example with all the other commodities which enter into foreign trade. I hope that the Government will take measures to enter into as many agreements, on the lines of the Wheat Agreement, as they possibly can, before the war ends.
Mr. Gallacher: I am very glad that this White Paper has been introduced. As the Minister says, the White Paper is important for the fact that this is the first time the Government have taken upon themselves the responsibility for seeing that the citizens of the country are provided with continuous employment. I am not so satisfied that the con-

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ditions as presented in the White Paper are capable of doing the job. In the first place, I would like to say a word upon what is in the minds of very many hon. Members on the other side, the question of exports. One great export market has not, so far as I have heard, been mentioned. It is a terrific market—the Soviet Union. In the past every conceivable obstacle was placed in the way of an export market in the Soviet Union. There was every provocation; the most difficult terms were imposed against getting a free supply of goods between this country and the Soviet Union. Yet it is obvious that on the basis of the 20 years' agreement, ail kinds of mutual understandings can be arrived at in regard to a variety of commodities. It is also certain that, if we are to get anywhere after the war, there will have to be not only these agreements with the Soviet Union, but agreements with the United States, and that brings in all the others. Between these three outstanding nations, there must be understanding of some kind. The first part of the White Paper deals with the international and industrial background, and, in connection with the international situation, those observations will have to do, though there are wide implications to be worked out.
I come to the all-important question of full employment. Hon. Members on the other side have insisted that they want to see full employment. But they also want private enterprise. I want the hon. Members on the other side who spoke on this question to tell us openly which they put first—full employment for the citizen or private enterprise. All the time they have at the back of their minds, the idea that private enterprise must come first. If it does come first, you will never get full employment.
Captain Prescott: While not necessarily accepting the deduction of my hon. Friend, may I say that if he had heard my speech earlier I think he would have found that his question had been answered?
Mr. Gallacher: As a matter of fact, it was the hon. and gallant Member's speech that first raised the question in my mind. I listened very carefully to him, and he was for full employment and private enterprise. I ask him to say now that
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he is prepared to put full employment before private enterprise.
Captain Prescott: If necessary.
Mr. Gallacher: Well, that is a concession, but there are other hon. Members who put private enterprise first, and who will say that it is not possible to get full employment unless you have private enterprise, despite the fact that, between the wars, private enterprise gave us millions of unemployed? The Minister said to-day that, hitherto, we had sought to treat the disease after it had started, but that now we intended to deal with the cause and to prevent the disease. That is very desirable, if the Minister and the Government are in earnest, but on page 16 of the White Paper, in paragraph 41, I read:
"The Government are prepared to accept, in future, the responsibility for taking action at the earliest possible stage to avert a threatened slump."
Not to stop unemployment, but to "avert a threatened slump." When we have got to the stage when the disease will spread all over the country, the Government will take steps to try to avert it. Is that the attitude to adopt? Is that giving a guarantee of security to the citizens of the country? Is that how you are going to treat them?
Mr. Quintin Hogg: Although the hon. Member has quoted, rather appropriately, a sentence from the middle of the document, I cannot believe that he has read the first sentence of that document, which says that the Government accept, as a primary aim and responsibility, the maintenance of a high and stable level of employment. If the hon. Member had read that sentence, I cannot believe that he would make the point he is now making.
Mr. Gallacher: I think the hon. Member was here when I started my speech. Obviously, the hon. Member's mind is unfortunate; it has blank spaces in it. The first thing I said was that I welcomed the White Paper because, for the first time in the history of this country, the Government had taken upon themselves the responsibility of providing full employment for the citizens. Then I added that I was not satisfied that the proposals in the White Paper were sufficient to meet that obligation. That is what I said. Every hon. Member heard me, except apparently the hon. Member for Oxford

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(Mr. Hogg). Maybe a term at the university would not do him any harm. It is quite clear that it is not my language, but the mind of the hon. Member, which is at fault, and the minds of some of his associates among the young Tory Progressives. The White Paper is not getting at the cause of the disease. That is what I want to deal with. Take another remark in the White Paper, which is obviously in the grossest contradiction to the Introduction. The appendix, in paragraph 4, says:
"Should it occur that, in a period of difficulty, average unemployment changes by four points from 8 per cent. to 12 is per cent."
If unemployment goes from 8 to 12 per cent., what does it mean? It means 2,500,000 unemployed. What do you make of that? How does that square with the Introduction? Two and a half million unemployed—and they visualize the possibility of that. When we are dealing with the transition from war industry to peace, shall we take into account that millions of lads are coming back from the Army, millions of men and women who will have to be transferred from war to peace industry? How is it to be done? I have put this point before to the hon. Member for Oxford, but he did not answer it. I would like to know if some other hon. Members could answer it. If I say that every one of these lads who have been defending this country has the right, when he comes back, to a home and a decent standard of life, is there anyone who will object to that? No, everybody will agree with that, but we have to recognise the fact that, unless a man has a right to a job, he can have no right to a decent standard.
We have seen much unemployment, poverty, the selling of furniture, of people being thrown out their houses because they could not pay the rent. The home and a decent standard of life depend on the first fundamental right of all—the right to work. I ask hon. Members opposite who are associated with the Government, representing the people of this country: Will they get up and say that our people are to go back to the dole? The Prime Minister and the Minister of Labour say, "No." Do they mean it? Is any Tory Member prepared to say that we as a House of Commons want these lads, when they come back to this country, to have the right to work in the
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country for which they are fighting? Not one of them dare answer that question, because private property comes first.
We have had said to-day, what was said yesterday in the Scottish Debate, that we should all pull together. Yes, provided we accept the right of the privileged few to get everything and the masses of the people to get nothing. Not one of the hon. Members opposite will pull together, to do justice to these lads who are fighting for their country at the present time. It is a question of asking not for privileges for soldiers, but for rights for soldiers. This Government and this House of Commons, representing the people of this country, should say to the lads who are now fighting—and this I put to every Tory—"We are going to give you the right to work, which will guarantee you the right to a home, and a decent standard of living." But before we can give that promise, we must ourselves have the means of providing it. We must not leave it to the speculators on the Stock Exchange. Is the Stock Exchange to carry on after the war, with men speculating and making millions of money while millions of people suffer and go short of the necessaries of life? Is it that for which the lads are fighting?
I like the White Paper because of the Introduction and because of the spirit, which, I feel, is behind the Introduction, but I say to the Government and to this House of Commons, "If you are going to do justice by the lads who are fighting and the people of this country—a, great people who have proved themselves a great people—the Government, backed by the House of Commons, representing the people, must take possession of the land, and the principal industries of this country, and so organise and direct our resources, as to ensure that the whole of them will not be drawn away by a privileged few, but will be expanded, so that the mass of the people will be able to enjoy what they are entitled to—a healthy, a happy and a peaceful life."
Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: Wonders will never cease, for the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) has just said the very thing that I wanted to say myself.
Mr. Gallacher: I am very pleased to hear that.
Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: Possibly I would not say it in quite the same way as he said it; but lacking his force and precision, too, the very same thought was running through my consideration of the White Paper as was running through his. But I come to different conclusions about it. The same thought has been running through quite a number of speeches we have heard today from both sides of the House. A number of speakers have mentioned the dramatic interest of the opening words of the White Paper:
"The Government accept as one of their primary aims and responsibilities the maintenance of a high level of employment after the war."
That was one of the most important pronouncements from a Government we have ever heard, and one which I welcome, when it is made by the British Government; although secretly I congratulate myself that I am not a Member of the Government who have made that commitment. Apart from that, the White Paper does appear to me as being complete in itself. It is an admirable production, an admirable lay-out of the problems and difficulties with which the Government who have made this commitment will have to deal. As I read the opening chapters, I made notes, wondering whether or not the Government would have thought of this point or of that point. I was very interested to find as I read through the document, before I got to the end, that every one of these points had been met; I will not say dealt with, I will not say solved, but they had all been acknowledged. The Government are to be congratulated on having produced a first-rate treatise on the problem of unemployment.
I would like to propose a general proposition which really is almost the same as that which the hon. Member for West Fife raised in slightly different words. I myself am intellectually convinced of its truth, and still more so after listening to speakers on both sides of the House; but, oddly enough, I may be wrong; so I would like the problem to be examined by better minds than my own. My proposition is that it is only an authoritarian Government which can deal effectively with unemployment. If we examine the nature and causes of unemployment it can be shown in theory that the only effective technique in the prevention of unemploy-
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ment which a Government can employ is interference with individual freedom of choice—that is to say interference with private enterprise—and not only can we show it in theory but also we have seen it in practice in the last 10 or 20 years. In those countries which have for a time made a success of dealing with unemployment the technique which they have employed for that purpose has been interference with freedom of individual choice. In Germany the Nazi Government took away from the people the right to make their own decisions. In this country we voluntarily gave our Government, for the purpose and period of this war the power to interfere with our freedom of choice. In Russia, a paternal Government took over the running of the whole nation, and interfered with freedom of choice. In America, they tried to deal with unemployment, but so long as they refused to interfere with freedom of choice, they failed; and it was only when war came along and the Government gat the powers to interfere, that unemployment was effectively dealt with. So I think I am saying, in a slightly different way, exactly what my hon. Friend the Member for West Fife said, that we cannot have private enterprise, and deal effectively with unemployment at the same time. I think that is true. It is going to be a question of choosing between the two. Which is, in the long run, the greater end in itself? Freedom of individual choice or dealing effectively with unemployment?
Mr. Bowles: May I ask the hon. Member a question? He has used the phrase "freedom of choice" very often in the last few minutes. Does he mean freedom of choice to sack other people, or freedom of choice to employ them?
Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: I am afraid I do not quite understand.
Mr. Bowles: The hon. Member hasused the phrase "freedom of choice" over and over again. Does he mean freedom of choice on the side of the employer to employ or to discharge labour, or freedom of choice to get a job where a worker wants to get a job?
Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: I meant much more, the freedom of the individual to say "I will—or will not—go to Brighton"; "I will—or will not—buy this particular hat"; "I will—or will not—start, or go into this particular business." All those

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things, in respect of which we are to-day limited in every way, are different aspects of what I meant by freedom of individual choice. I meant private negotiation, the idea of a man negotiating for his own advantage. That is private enterprise, a man negotiating for what he conceives to be his own advantage. I think therefore that what we have to consider is: Are the Government to continue to hold all the powers of interference which we have granted them for the period of the war? Are they to continue to hold their powers of rationing, licensing, control of production and supply and distribution? Are they to hold their power to direct labour of all kinds to what they shall work at, at what wage, and where it will be? That is the question we have really to decide in choosing between dealing effectively with unemployment on the one side, and the maintenance of what I call freedom of choice, or what my hon. Friend opposite called private enterprise, on the other side.
Now without myself saying which I think is the better end of the two, I think it is possible to forecast which is most likely to find favour in this country. I doubt very much whether in this island, inhabited by 45,000,000 people, each of whom is rather the counterpart of an island in himself, or herself, we will continue indefinitely to grant those powers of interference to the Government. I do not think these powers of interference which we have given to this Government during the war will stick to the Government indefinitely. That is merely an expression of opinion. Without saying whether they ought or ought not to have it, I say I do not think they are going to, as a matter of business judgment.
There is another aspect of this, which is really the same thing stated in another way. As I read through all the proposals in this White Paper, this thought struck my mind, that it would not be possible to put them through except by means of a Coalition Government. They involve so many compromises between different political philosophies that I believe the White Paper could only be made effective by a Coalition Government. What then? How are we to regard this? Is this a bid of the present Government to continue in office? Can we look at this as an election address?
Mr. Bowles: Of course it is.
Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: I rather thought so myself. I am glad I am able to mention these matters from the position of security of a Private Member who has no responsibility. [An HON. MEMBER: "Freedom of choice."] Exactly. Then my comment on that is that if this is an election address, I think one may surely forecast that, during the period of postwar readjustment, it is very probable that the people of the country will grant to the Government those powers of interference which are necessary. But the problem with which the Government will have to deal during that period of readjustment will not be unemployment; the danger is very much more likely to be over-employment—the difficulty of dealing with runaway price markets, of commodity and money markets—and during that period I believe that we shall still be prepared to put up with the controls and the rationing and the licensing and so on. But, at the end of that period, I do not think the country generally will allow the Government to retain those powers. In other words, when we reach the period, when we really want those powers for dealing with unemployment, I do not think the Government of the day will have them, for free citizens only grant such powers to their Government when they believe that the existence of the nation is at stake.
Turning to the methods of the Government's proposals, there are a good many aspects which one would like to discuss but there is one in particular which should be mentioned. The key note of the policy in practice, as I see it, is to be found in the central phrase on page 26, section 80:
"To-day, the conception of an expansionist economy and the broad principles governing its growth are widely accepted by men of affairs as well as by technical experts in all the great industrial countries."
That confident phrase might have come straight out of a leading article in "The Times." It might almost have come from one of those thoughtful speeches on finance by my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby). I am not absolutely certain what it means, but I know what it connotes to my mind, and I have had that impression confirmed by what every hon. Member has said in speaking of it. It connotes to my mind the pressure of equal suffrage on taxation, a continually expanding National Debt, and a steadily if slowly depreciating

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currency. I may be wrong but I think that while, unquestionably, some such methods will be necessary as part of the general scheme of dealing with unemployment, one may be forgiven if one looks upon the acceptance of that phrase with a certain amount of misgiving. For what does it mean put another way round? What does it really amount to? It is stated in an affirmative, confident, positive way. But what it really means is that, under the pressure of suffrage on taxation, the horses of national debt have already begun to run away, and instead of pulling a long face about it, we have decided to look pleasant and say that that was what we had really meant them to do all the time.
Mr. Shinwell: Surely it does not mean that. Is the hon. Member not stressing the point unduly? Surely it means that an attempt is to be made—whether it succeeds or not, or whether the appropriate machinery is organised—to meet unsatisfied demand? Surely that is the point.
Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: I do not think it is intended to say that, but that is what it represents to my mind—the acceptance under pressure of something which is unquestionably—after a long period of time —pointing to disaster. I think we are entering on a period when it will be politically impossible to oppose the idea of an expansionist policy. It must run its course, it must work itself out, and it is only when it has worked itself out that we shall realise to the full what are its defects. To-day I was talking with a very wise friend of mine on this very subject, and this was his comment. He said, "I wonder why it is that at this particular moment in history the idea should have become so prevalent that everything was done in the wrong way in the past, and that therefore it is to be done differently from now on." He said, "Is there not something crazy about that idea, is there not something almost conceited about the idea that only now, in this epoch of history, we find that everything done in the past was wrong and that we ought now to do it in a different way?"
Mr. A. Edwards: Does the war mean nothing to the hon. Gentleman? Has it taught him nothing?
Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: This central phrase is largely a business of making a virtue of necessity. There are various
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minor aspects of the plan which I should like to mention, in particular the social insurance contribution suggested in Appendix II. There is no question, now we are in the field of considering palliatives, that that suggestion is in the right direction. I agree, however, with others who have said that it is not on a scale large enough to be effective but, nevertheless, it is a step in the right direction. There is little doubt that the effects of unemployment have been far less severe in Great Britain than in other countries, largely on account of our system of social insurance. Anything that tends to even out swings is a move in the right direction. But a shortcoming of it is that it is a quantitative remedy for a maladjustment that is qualitative and local, rather than quantitative. To increase general spending power will be a palliative to the effects of unemployment, and not a prevention of its causes.
Another suggestion in the White Paper which I welcome is contained in Paragraph 73, where it is stated that the Government will continue study of the problem of building up stocks in times of plenty in order that they may be let out in times of scarcity. When I was speaking the other day in the Debate on Monetary Policy I put that suggestion forward, and I hope that it may receive consideration both in this country and in America. It may possibly be approached from a different angle, such as that which was in the mind of my hon. Friend who spoke just now with regard to the Wheat Conference. What are generally regarded as times of great prosperity are, in fact, almost invariably times of great shortages of commodities. High prices generally mean shortage, and what we need to do, stripping the whole problem of all its complications of money, is, when there is an abundance of things, to store them and let them out again when there is a shortage. I am reminded of Pharaoh's dream of the seven fat kine and seven lean kine, when he took advantage of the times of plenty, to store up for times when there was a shortage of goods. I hope very much that both in this country and in America these problems will receive consideration and may result in joint Governmental action.
Mr. Kirkwood: We are living in a different age. Thousands of years have

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passed since the time when Pharaoh's lean kine came out of the river and swallowed up the fat kine. It did not make the lean kine any fatter. We are living in an age of superabundance, a time when we are able to meet all demands.
Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: I do not quite understand the relevance of what the hon. Member has said. While we are living in a different age, many of our problems are just the same. We are clouding and fogging our minds by the complications of modern industrial structure.
Mr. Kirkwood: The lean kine were not fatter after they had swallowed the fat kine. The hon. Member cannot apply that analogy now, because we are living in an age of superabundance, an age of machinery which will enable us to produce everything we want.
Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: I still do not quite understand the relevance of what the hon. Member has said, but I shall be glad to discuss it afterwards in order to try to understand him better. There are two or three minor suggestions I would like to make, all in the realm of palliatives to unemployment, which I hope the Government may find opportunities to study. I hope very much that it may be possible to keep in existence after the war the main fabric of the national salvage organisation. Salvage is something which is not economic, but it is economical and at a time of general unemployment, when we have to pay people anyhow, they may just as well be employed on the many aspects of salvage, which serve to maintain the general fabric of our living, and helping the general structure of saving. Another suggestion which I hope will receive consideration, is that we may gradually get a larger proportion of industry paid on monthly, rather than weekly, wages. If wages are paid on a monthly basis, over a wider range, there would be infinitely greater balance in the swing between boom and depression.
Mr. George Griffiths: It might be possible in Eastbourne, but we would not have it in Hemsworth.
Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: I conclude by saying that I regard the White Paper, as a whole, as a most genuine attempt to solve a problem which appears to me, as it seems to appear to the hon. Member for West Fife, to be practically insoluble.
Mr. Driberg: Arising out of the interesting passage in the hon. Gentleman's speech about control, does he not assume rather too readily that all controls and interferences, as he call them, are of one character? Are they not of three characters—those like Regulations 18B and 2D, which will go immediately the war ends; those which may last two or three years, such as food rationing; and those, like the location of industry and town and country planning, which should be permanent?
Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: The hon. Member's Question is too long for me to attempt to answer it.
Ordered:
"That the Debate he now adjourned. — [Captain McEwen.]
Debate to be resumed To-morrow.

STATUTORY RULES AND ORDERS
Ordered:
"That a Select Committee be appointed to consider every Statutory Rule or Order (including any Provisional Rule made under Section 2 of the Rules Publication Act, 1893) laid or laid in draft before the House, being a Rule, Order, or Draft upon which proceedings may be taken in either House in pursuance of any Act of Parliament, with a view to determining whether the special attention of the House should be drawn to it on any of the following grounds:—

(i) that it imposes a charge on the public revenues or contains provisions requiring payment to be made to the Exchequer or any Government Department or to any local or public authority in consideration of any licence or consent, or of any services to be rendered, or prescribes the amount of any such charge or payments:

(ii) that it is made in pursuance of an enactment containing specific provisions excluding it from challenge in the courts, either at all times or after the expiration of a specified period:

(iii) that it appears to make some unusual or unexpected use of the powers conferred by the Statute under which it is made:

(iv) that there appears to have been unjustifiable delay in the publication of it:

(v) that for any special reason, its form or purport calls for elucidation."

Committee nominated of Captain Crowder, Mr. Denman, Mr. Owen Evans, Mr. Fraser, Sir Herbert Holdsworth, Mr. Moelwyn Hughes, Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew, Mr. Molson, Mr. Petherick, Mr. Ellis Smith and Mr. E. P. Smith.
Ordered:
"That the Committee shall have the assistance of the Counsel to Mr. Speaker."
Ordered:
"That the Committee have power to sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House, and to report from time to time.
Ordered:
"That the Committee have power to require any Government Department concerned to submit a memorandum explaining any Rule, Order, or Draft which may be under their consideration or to depute a representative to appear before them as a Witness for the purpose of explaining any such Rule, Order, or Draft.
Ordered:
"That Five be the quorum."
Ordered:
"That it be an Instruction to the Committee that before reporting that the special attention of the House should be drawn to any Rule, Order, or Draft the Committee do afford to any Government Department concerned therewith an opportunity of furnishing orally or in writing such explanations as the Department think fit."—[Mr. Herbert Morrison.]

PALACE OF WESTMINSTER (ACCOMMODATION)
Resolution of the House (25th May) relative to the appointment of a Joint Committee on Palace of Westminster (Accommodation), which was ordered to be communicated to the Lords and Message from the Lords (14th June) signifying their concurrence in the said Resolution, read.
Ordered:
"That a Select Committee of Seven Members be appointed to join with a Committee to be appointed by the Lords to inquire into the accommodation in the Palace of Westminster and to report thereon with such recommendations as appear to them desirable."
Ordered:
"That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records; to sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House; and to report from time to time."
Ordered:
"That three be the quorum —[Major Sir J. Edmondson.]
Message to the Lords, to acquaint them therewith and to request them to appoint an equal number of Lords to join with the Committee appointed by this House.
Committee nominated of Mr. Anderson, Sir Cyril Entwistle, Mr. Harvey, Mr.
Mander, Mr. Raikes, Sir Stanley Reed and Mr. R. J. Taylor.
The Orders of the Day were read, and postponed.

DOMESTIC WORKERS
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Captain McEwen.)
Mr. Edgar Granville: I desire to raise the problem of the supply of domestic servants at the present time. I do not apologise for raising again the question which was raised by the hon. Member for Denbigh (Sir H. Morris-Jones), myself and others. The case that we made out on the previous occasion was that it was wrong for one private household to have four, five or six domestic servants while others, whose need was the same, were unable to get any at all, and we referred particularly to the case of old people bed-ridden and infirm, and particularly maternity cases, as well as the shortage in the supply of servants for hospitals and institutions. Since we raised this question we have received hundreds of letters. Fortunately or unfortunately, on the occasion I refer to I mentioned one Member of Parliament, who was looked upon as a future Prime Minister, who had to get up and do his own chores and get his own meals. That has added, I am afraid, considerably to our correspondence, and there were an alarming number of volunteers who were ready to come forward and assist one who they thought was a future Prime Minister. Some of them thought I referred to the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell), others took him to be the Foreign Secretary, and others thought the reference was to other equally good looking aspirants in the House of Commons. I have no intention of reading quotations from this mass of correspondence. These letters do show a very strong feeling in the country about serious difficulties owing to the shortage of domestic help.
I will give at random three cases. One is the case of an old infirm couple unable to cook their own meals, to look after their small house, to make their bed and to get any domestic help through the agency of the Ministry of Labour. They must depend upon visits by relatives.

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The second case is that of the wife of a gallant man in the Royal Navy who has been turned out of her lodgings because she was about to have a baby and was able to secure alternative accommodation of a sort, but who is completely unable in these circumstances to get any help while he is at sea. Another case is that of a large family in a village; all the members of it are engaged on war work, but they are unable to obtain any assistance, though in a house of considerable size near by, with two in the family, they are able to maintain four domestic servants. I must repeat the question I have asked before—Where is the equality or fair play if we allow conditions of this kind to exist? One reads in the newspapers as recently as yesterday that it is possible for an attendant at a night club in London to make as much as£18 a night in tips.
There was some suggestion on a previous occasion that the newspapers' advertisements were not authentic, but I have one in my hand which gives the name and address of the advertiser. It says:
"Experienced house or house-parlour maid for small convenient house, two in family, three maids kept, good wages and fare."
Then follow the name and address.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. McCorquodale): Has the hon. Gentleman checked that?
Mr. Granville: No, I have not checked it. It is hardly my responsibility. Everybody hoped that in 1940 the Government, having taken tremendous emergency and temporary powers, would conscript everybody, private individuals, property and all the rest of it. That was not done. Even at this stage I am pleading that the vast administrative experience and influence of the Minister of Labour should be used as effectively as possible to endeavour to iron out the serious social inequalities in these various cases of which I have given examples.
I asked the right hon. Gentleman a question, and I make the suggestion again now. In necessitous areas where there is some supply available, it should be possible to arrange for a pool of domestic servants. I understand that Finchley Social Service Club runs a pool of this kind very successfully, and that the local authority have been asked to
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provide funds to help those who cannot possibly afford to pay the wages of domestic servants.
If that can be done—and T believe it is done largely through that really magnificent organisation the W.V.S. and with the help of the Red Cross Committee—surely the right hon. Gentleman's Department could initiate some kind of pool on a national basis, particularly where there is a supply of domestic servants available, both alien and others. Secondly, it should be possible, again in areas where there are a considerable number of domestic servants, to take a census of these domestic workers. I do not want to place any more work upon the Ministry of Labour, such as form-filling and so on, because I know that they have heavy responsibility, but I think this suggestion could be carried out without much trouble. I should like my hon. Friend to give us some sort of hope that it may be possible in those districts to have a census and then to make some arrangement for a pool to be available, particularly for the very bad cases, such as those of old or infirm people who are literally unable to get any help at all.
I have read the Green Paper which the Minister of Labour has issued. It is a good Paper but it says:
"All domestic work to which women are now sent by employment exchanges is priority work of a high order. It is essential for it to be performed if the sick and wounded are to recover, if the rising generation is to have the good start we want them to have, if mothers in childbirth are to regain strength, if war-workers are to be well fed and cared for, and if the old and invalid are to be properly looked after."
This leaflet is well written, but the question still remains: How do you get a domestic servant? The Minister has stated his case and then made an appeal. He has asked for volunteers but as far as I can see there is no really effective administrative machinery behind that appeal to enable anyone who wishes to get a home help or domestic servant.
There is one more side to this matter. Now is the time, and it is not too soon to begin, to consider the whole question of raising the status of the domestic worker. It involves questions of raising wages, reducing hours and improving conditions. The State, the employers and the employees must agree upon a scheme to raise the standard of the important workers in this country by improving the

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conditions of their profession after the war. If that is to be done, it should be begun now. We ought to try to get a domestic workers' charter now. I noticed that at their annual meeting charwomen do not like being called by that name; their organisation said so. They think their status is that of office cleaner or domestic cleaner. The hon. Gentleman is in effect the Parliamentary representative of Mrs. Mopp. I want my hon. Friend, who has shown such good sense and helpfulness in all these matters, to recognise the importance of this problem and to give us some hope that he realises the unfairness as well as the social suffering which is being caused in the cases to which I have referred. I understand that the Government have been putting their thinking cap on and that the matter has been considered; is it too soon to hope that the right hon. Gentleman can make some sort of statement on the Government attitude on this question to-day?
Mr. Evelyn Walkden: I will not detain the House for more than two or three minutes but I want to underline or emphasise one aspect of the case that has been made out by my hon. Friend the Member for Eye (Mr. Granville), who has just presented the argument so ably to the House. I do not agree with all he says, but I do feel, on the question of a local census in certain areas, that much good could come, and great advantage could be derived in regard to the needs of those particular areas. I would not burden the Ministry officials, for example, with a census throughout the whole of my division of Doncaster, or say Hemsworth, because we would not find many domestic servants in areas like that. There are some parts of most towns where big houses are situated, and I want the Minister clearly to understand that owing to the experience of some of us—this is not all newspaper prattle nor are they ill-founded suggestions—it is well known that the Ministry is not getting a record of all the servants who operate in many of those big houses.
One may be able to find here and there a case where a servant has been sent to people who need a servant or where a servant has been left in the home because the people needed one, but in the town in Surrey where I reside I know of two
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or three good sized houses where there are two, three and in some cases more, servants. The master of the home, or the man in the homestead, or the husband, or whatever designation he may have, has his car waiting for him in the morning with a chauffeur. He has, indeed, all the help one can possibly expect or need in a home. The Minister dissents from that——
Mr. McCorquodale: Does my hon. Friend know a single case where, in a house like that, any one of these domestic servants is within registerable age?
Mr. Walkden: The registerable age is the trick they all know, and of which they take advantage. They are very artful in making use of, shall I say, the means of evasion which are often provided by the Ministry. I admit that if you were to question them about their ages some would say that they are 63. I am not so sure of that; I would doubt it in some cases I know. What I want to put to the Minister is that if he would send out only two clerks in almost any town of reasonable size for a couple of days during the next two or three weeks, he would be able to discover the kind of evidence the hon. Member has just referred to as having been extracted from the correspondence. I believe it is wrong that the Ministry should sit back and content itself with issuing a document, content itself with setting up a committee. After all it is a waste of time for the ladies who sit on the committee to allocate servants to those who need them. I do not exactly support the hon. Member in regard to the voluntary organisation of a pool of servants. I think it is the local authorities' responsibility to provide household helps. Surrey attempted it before the war. The scheme was going well, but, unfortunately, through shortage of personnel or shortage of servants, they had to drop it. I appeal to the Minister to co-operate with the local authorities, and to place the responsibility on them for household help. Let us make a fresh start to solve the problem which has been so ably stated by the hon. Member.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. McCorquodale): I am afraid that I have very little to add to the rather full statement that I made very recently to the House on an Adjournment Motion, raised by my hon.

317
Friend the Member for Denbigh (Sir H. Morris-Jones). If the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. E. Walkden) had been here, and had listened to my remarks on that occasion, he would have found that a number of his queries had been answered.
Mr. E. Walkden: I was here.
Mr. MeCorquodale: Then I hope the hon. Member will look it up, because I do not want to repeat it all again, in the few minutes that are available to me. I have no complaint about this matter being raised by the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Granville), especially on such a very appropriate occasion as to-day, when we have been discussing post-war employment. The whole matter is one of very great importance in regard to employment, especially to the female section of the population. As has been already stated in this House, we have set up at the Ministry of Labour a special inquiry, under the direction and guidance of Miss Violet Markham, into the question of employment in domestic work in the post-war years. I should estimate that it is quite possible to find employment after the war —because this industry has been combed to the uttermost during the war, and cut down to very small proportions—for up to i,000,000 extra persons in the whole range of domestic work, both public and private, if the conditions are favourable. Therefore, I agree most wholeheartedly with what the hon. Member said about raising the status of the domestic worker, as a valuable and respected member of society. Anything that hon. Members can do to that end will be welcomed by the Ministry of Labour.
I would like to take the opportunity of putting before the House the present position with regard to the placing of domestic workers in priority services, domestic workers in hospitals—to which the Ministry and indeed the whole House attach importance—and where we can and where conditions are suitable, in priority households. We cannot direct them there, because it would not be proper, in our opinion, and I think the House will agree, to force, with penal sanction, any girl to go into private domestic work where we cannot guarantee the conditions. We have found that there has been a net increase in the hospital sphere, during the first 15 weeks of this year, of 3,200 nurses and midwives, and 2,200
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domestic workers. This is not bad, at this time of the war, and that process is continuing. We have also placed in the last four months, as home helps and in priority private households, where there is no direction, as I said, over 6,000 women. That, I think, shows that the Department attach importance to trying to meet the demands of priority households.
The hon. Member talked about setting up a pool in places where there is a surplus of domestic workers. Incidentally, we do not know anywhere where there is a surplus of domestic workers, of an age at which the Ministry of Labour can direct, or require to go anywhere. We have been in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, who has been most co-operative in this matter, and, with him, we have been opening discussions with the Standing Joint Committee of the Metropolitan Boroughs and with other local authorities, because I quite agree with the hon. Member for Doncaster that if we are going to run any form of home help services, for special cases of illness and the like, the local authorities should, if possible, be the people to run them. I do not claim that we have any cut-and-dried scheme. We have had preliminary discussions, though not to the point of committing local authorities, but I think we are justified in saying that we hope that those authorities whose representatives we have approached may be able to undertake this work if we can provide the necessary facilities, and, most important of all, the borne helps themselves.
With regard to the other matter which the hon. Gentleman raised, that of taking as ay from present households domestic servants of over registration age, where they are outside normal direction and control of the Ministry of Labour in any other walk of life, I think various considerations arise. We have reviewed households with domestic servants in the registerable ages, from 18 to 51, and, where there are domestic servants over that age in these households we would normally withdraw the younger ones. I asked, the last time we had a Debate on this subject, for cases to be sent to me. I have had remarkably few, and when the hon. Member for Denbigh raised one case with my Minister, my right hon. Friend in answering him is pointing out that the conditions were very far different from what he had been given to understand.

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If we did what the hon. Members want, we would have to say to domestic workers "You are in a special category. While the State does not call up, register and direct other classes of the community in these age groups, you are going to be called up, registered and directed up to the age of 65." I do not believe the House would tolerate that. Up to the age of 51, domestic workers, with all other workers in this country, have had their position reviewed. I do not believe the House, which only gave us permission to go up from 45 to 51 with a good deal of criticism, especially from the hon. Member for Denbigh, would be prepared to give us further powers to register, control and direct these ladies up to 6o or 65. I am afraid I cannot put before the House any justification for such a step. According to my information, from the manpower point of view, the numbers of domestic servants above the registerable age in households is negligible, and our experts throughout the country, who have been consulted, have advised us that the number of people who would be regarded as a placing proposition and who could be obtained by any step like that proposed would not justify the labour and expense and the time that would be taken by the Ministry in registering them and calling them up for interview and the rest.
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I therefore say that I could not possibly justify on national grounds our coming to the House to ask for a special census or order for these people above military age to be registered and then directed. If we did not direct them, but only registered them, as the hon. Member suggested, what would happen? We may be able to say "You do not stay at house X," but we would not be able to say, "You go to house Y" or "You go to a hospital." We could merely say "You shall not work there, but we cannot compel you or require you to work elsewhere." Some of these elderly and middle-aged ladies would be lost to employment altogether. Therefore, I cannot come here and justify any steps which would mean that we were treating domestic workers as a special class by registering them up to 65.
I have endeavoured to show that while we are giving attention to the post-war position and to the hon. Member's suggestion with regard to home helps, what he calls pools—I do not like the term "pools," because there is no pool of reserve labour about and we shall have to draw it from other occupations—we cannot meet him on the suggestion of carrying out a census.
It being the hour appointed for the Adjournment of the House, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Aircraftman Leo Abse
  Aircraftman Leo Abse
  EQUAL PAY (ROYAL COMMISSION)
  EQUAL PAY (ROYAL COMMISSION)
  ARMED FORCES (OVERSEAS SERVICE)
  ARMED FORCES (OVERSEAS SERVICE)
  MINISTRY OF WAR TRANSPORT (ESSENTIAL WORKS LIST)
  MINISTRY OF WAR TRANSPORT (ESSENTIAL WORKS LIST)
FOOD SUPPLIES
  Kippers (Rural Workers)
  Kippers (Rural Workers)
  Herrings (Dehydration)
  Herrings (Dehydration)
  BULGARIA (OPPOSITION MOVEMENTS)
  BULGARIA (OPPOSITION MOVEMENTS)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Patents and Designs
  Patents and Designs
  Price Regulations (Revised Order)
  Price Regulations (Revised Order)
  Director-General of Civilian Clothing
  Director-General of Civilian Clothing
  WOMEN'S VOLUNTARY SERVICES (POST-WAR)
  WOMEN'S VOLUNTARY SERVICES (POST-WAR)
  POST OFFICE (APPOINTMENTS)
  POST OFFICE (APPOINTMENTS)
  ARMED FORCES (RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS)
  ARMED FORCES (RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS)
  BRAZIL (BRITISH INVESTMENTS)
  BRAZIL (BRITISH INVESTMENTS)
  NORTHERN RHODESIA AND TANGANYIKA (AFRICAN REPRESENTATION)
  NORTHERN RHODESIA AND TANGANYIKA (AFRICAN REPRESENTATION)
  TURKEY (CHROME PRODUCTION AND EXPORTS)
  TURKEY (CHROME PRODUCTION AND EXPORTS)
  DOMINICA (SCHOOL TEACHER, DISMISSAL)
  DOMINICA (SCHOOL TEACHER, DISMISSAL)
  PALESTINE (CITRUS INDUSTRY)
  PALESTINE (CITRUS INDUSTRY)
  KENYA (LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, AFRICAN MEMBER)
  KENYA (LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, AFRICAN MEMBER)
GIBRALTAR
  City Council
  City Council
  Constitution
  Constitution
  GERMANY (PEACE TERMS)
  GERMANY (PEACE TERMS)

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

DERWENT VALLEY WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
ASCOT DISTRICT GAS AND ELECTRICITY BILL.
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons
NORTH-WEST MIDLANDS JOINT ELECTRICITY AUTHORITY PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT CRANBORNE) (Lord Cecil): My Lords, before we pass to the further consideration of the Education Bill, I should like to make an appeal to noble Lords to assist the Lord Chairman as far as they possibly can in expediting business. As your Lordships are aware, there are twenty-six pages of Amendments on this Bill, and yesterday, with all our efforts, we got through only three of them. It was arranged yesterday that we should have an extra day for the consideration of the Committee stage, but even so, I am afraid, we are sadly behind schedule. The only result of long delay would be to prejudice discussion of other Motions because we must get this Bill through and send it back to another place. Therefore I hope noble Lords will assist in any way they can to hurry things up.

EDUCATION BILL.
House again in Committee (according to Order):
[The LORD STANNORE in the Chair.]
Clause 14:
Classification of auxiliary schools as controlled schools, aided schools, or special agreement schools.
(3) The managers or governors of a controlled school shall not be responsible for any of the expenses of maintaining the school, but the following provisions shall have effect with respect to the maintenance of aided schools and special agreement schools:

(a) the following expenses shall be payable by the managers or governors of the school, that is to say, the expenses of discharging any liability incurred by them or on their behalf or by or on behalf of any former managers or governors of the school or any trustees thereof for the purposes of establishing or carrying on the school any expenses incurred in effecting such alterations to the school buildings as may be required by the local education authority for the purpose of securing that the school premises should conform to the prescribed standards, and any expenses incurred in effecting repairs to the school premises not being repairs which are excluded from their responsibility by the following paragraph:

(b) the managers or governors of the school shall not be responsible for repairs to the school playground or playing fields or to the interior of the school buildings or for repairs necessary in consequence of the use of the premises, in pursuance of any direction or requirement of the authority, for purposes other than those of the school.

(4) If at any time the managers or governors of an aided school or a special agreement school are unable or unwilling to carry out their obligations under paragraph (a) of the last foregoing subsection is shall be their duty to apply to the Minister for an order revoking the order by virtue of which the school is an aided school or a special agreement school, and upon such an application being made to him the Minister shall revoke the order.
LORD RANKEILLOUR LORD RANKEILLOUR moved to insert at the end of paragraph (a) in subsection (3):
"Provided that the liability of the managers or governors under this paragraph shall be limited to a sum not exceeding by more than thirty-five per centum the amount which would have been incurred in discharging such liabilities or effecting such alterations or repairs calculated on the basis of the average cost per school place of the provision of additional school places on the three last occasions on which such provision was made in the area of the local education authority concerned previously to the first day of July nineteen hundred and thirty-nine."
The noble Lord said: I shall endeavour to comply with the request of the Leader of the House, but it is not easy to be very short on some of the most important parts of this Bill. The Bill is very complicated, and some of the points are very important. I am afraid I must take a few minutes to develop my argument now. The Amendment I have to propose is of importance to all managers of schools and of the first importance to those of my own community. I am not going to repeat what I said on the Second Reading, but what we feel is that if we cannot get full justice, as we have in Scotland, we ought not to be subject to a burden which it is very doubtful, even now, that we can bear. The special point is the complete uncertainty of the liability that will be thrown upon us. My noble friend in charge of the Bill said he would speak to me in private as to why we could not know the reason the building regulations already in draft were not given to the House. Unfortunately, at the end of business yesterday, I found his attention absorbed by others, and I was not able to attract it. I confess I cannot see why what is in the mind of the Board of Education should not be known to Parliament and, if necessary, modified in consequence of Parliamentary debate. It seems to me altogether a wrong method of procedure. However, I await, before the Report stage, some further explanation which my noble friend cannot give it in public.
As to the cost of the necessary alterations, etc., to our schools, there have been the most varying estimates arising from the original Government estimate of 15 per cent. above the 1939 costs up to some 75 per cent. over these costs in the view of the officials of the London County Council. The latest Government estimate is 35 per cent. over 1939, and it is on that assumption that I framed this estimate, taking the Government figures as the best they were able to arrive at. With regard to 1939, I am rather fortified in my Amendment by the Government themselves, because only yesterday or the day before they introduced a Bill to make provision for the acquisition and development of land for planning purposes and for assessing, by reference to 1939 prices, the compensation payable and so on. Therefore, they do admit that 1939 is a standard year after which increases are
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practically certain. For that reason they are taking it upon themselves to acquire land for these other excellent purposes by reference to 1939 prices. The point of the Amendment is to restrict the manager's liability to this. In any Amendment of this kind I am in a constitutional difficulty. If I were able to move what is entirely in my mind, I should seek to put any increase over the 1939 prices either on taxes or rates. To put it on taxes is impossible, even for a Private Member in another place, unless there has been a Resolution authorizing him to do it. To put it on rates, though I believe perfectly in the competence of the House, would probably be strongly resisted in another place. So I am constrained to relieve the managers of their liabilities. In this connexion I would ask your Lordships to refer to page 12, subsection (2), where it is laid down that the managers are to satisfy the local authority that they are able to continue the school as an aided school. It is quite possible they might satisfy the authority that they will be able to carry on the school on a 35 per cent. increase, but not on a 50 or 6o per cent. increase.
What I am suggesting is that the figure of increase should be put at a point at which it might be possible for them to carry on. I am quite aware that this may lead in certain cases to unfortunate results—that is to say, we might have a type of school of lesser standard than the rest, which of course would be deplorable, but I see no other way than to accept that possibility. On the principle that the life is more than the raiment, so the schooling is more than the building. I was myself educated in Birmingham under Newman in the last decade of his life, and I am quite certain that the premises would have been condemned, from the point of view of the sanitary arrangements, in an elementary school, but none of us suffered any harm. I suppose we prize the education we received there beyond almost anything we can look back upon. I would just add an explanation of the latter part of the Amendment. I am not taking the average figures all over the country because obviously they would differ in rural parts from what they are in towns. I am taking the best average that can be found. It is said that it does not matter what the increase may be because wages will rise with costs, and therefore there would be

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more to draw upon. It may be that wages will rise to some extent with costs, but it does not follow that wages all round will rise in the same degree as building costs. These will be forced up by the competition of other public works, whereas, as likely as not, the wages of shipwrights and miners will fall. Therefore I submit that is a false argument. This proposal is put forward not as the best but as an alleviation. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 47, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Rankeillour.)
EARL GREY: My Lords, I should like in very few words to give strong support on behalf of those with whom I am associated to the Amendment that has been proposed. The discussion on the financial burden in mother place centred upon the Roman Catholics, but it would be a great mistake to think that the Church of England was not involved to an even greater extent. As compared with the number of Roman Catholic schools, there are 9,000 schools in the Church of England and they also have to decide what action to take under this Bill. I was extremely curious to discover that, whereas the President in another place gave £10,000,000 as an estimate of the cost to the Roman Catholic Church, no one on behalf of the Church of England has yet succeeded in obtaining any estimate of any sort or kind of what the cost will be to the Church of England. It has been my duty to present the annual budget to the Church Assembly for consideration and therefore I naturally have been most anxious to get some idea of the sort of amounts that may be involved for us, but in spite of repeated attempts I have failed to get any estimate at all from the President of what the cost is likely to be for the Church of England.
I should have thought that it was not in accordance with the best Parliamentary practice to discuss charges unless you can give some indication of the amount to the people who are to bear those charges. They surely ought to know what those charges are likely to amount to. I agree that the Government have attempted to ease the position by the introduction of loans (which will be discussed at a later stage of this Bill) but in doing so I thought their argument in another place
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was peculiar. It was suggested that too much should not be thought of the total sum because you would be able to get loans in repayment which would mean only a small payment year by year. I recall that it is not so long ago that the Government appointed a Royal Commission to inquire into purchase by instalments in this country. Yet here we have the Government getting up and saying it is quite easy to find this money because you can spread the payments over a number of years. The position may very well be that before the period of the repayment of the loans has expired we shall be faced with new demands. I beg the noble Earl to realize that the whole financial position is one of the utmost seriousness not only to Roman Catholics but to the Church of England and we are most anxious to have any way pointed out that the Government can devise by means of which we shall be able to meet our difficulties.
THE EARL OE SELBORNE: My noble friend Lord Grey is quite right in saying that this is a matter which affects the Church of England just as much as, and even more than, it affects the Roman Catholic Church. I think both my noble friends realize that I should be very pleased to be in a position to accede to the request that they are making in this Amendment, but I do not think that either of them would have expected that I could have replied in that sense because this Amendment, whatever its merits or demerits, does cut at the root of the settlement that has been so elaborately, laboriously and skilfully built up by the President of the Board of Education. I recognize that the settlement is not an agreed settlement in the sense that it is accepted 100 per cent. by all the denominations and other interests concerned. That I think would be beyond the bounds of human possibility, but I believe we all do recognize that my right honourable friend has very brilliantly framed what he calls a compromise solution. Other people may not accept it entirely but it is a solution which has commanded a very wide measure of assent among the Churches, the teachers, educationists, and the local authorities and other bodies who are primarily concerned in this great problem. My noble friend is here trying to pull away one of the pillars of that settlement, a pillar that he particularly dislikes. The pillar is this, that the State

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shall defray half the cost of bringing denominational schools up to modern requirements. My noble friends complain that it puts the denominations in a very difficult position because they do not know what the requirements of the President are going to be, and they do not know what the cost of making these alterations will amount to.
In regard to what the noble Lord, Lord Rankeillour, said about the building regulations, there are two points which I would like to present for his consideration. In the first place I do think it is difficult to ask the President to publish regulations that he proposes to make under the Bill when it is an Act before the Bill is in fact an Act, because the regulations must be affected by the terms of the Act, and if at a later stage in the consideration of the Bill the Bill was altered in some important respect, it might affect the regulations that the President would draft. Therefore until the Bill has become an Act there can only be draft regulations and if there are such drafts in being at the present moment that surely is merely because the proper people to be consulted can be consulted about them and that those drafts can be amended at any time in the light of further reflection by the President.
I must also point out to my noble friend that, before these regulations can have effect, under Clause 105 of the Bill they have to be submitted to both Houses of Parliament and therefore not only the noble Lord's co-religionists but also others in another place would have an opportunity of challenging the Government if in any respect those regulations are deemed to be unfair to the denominations. I do not think it would be only the denominations who will have something to say about the regulations. I think my noble friend will recognize that there are eager educationists who will desire to see the buildings and the schools so improved as to afford the best facilities for the children. There quite well might be pressure brought to bear upon the Government both in the direction of expense as well as in the direction of economy. I think this is a point that should be borne in mind by everybody. Therefore my reply to the noble Lord about publication of the building regulations is that those regulations will be published at the proper time and will be laid before both Houses of Parliament. If either House disagrees
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with them they will cease to have effect. They will be kept entirely within the control of Parliament.
My noble friend's second point was that he could not tell what the expense of any given alteration will amount to. That is of course perfectly true, but neither can the President. There are these considerations to be borne in mind. Under the scheme of the Bill no expense will fall on the denominations for about three years from the passing of the Act. Then the expense that starts will be of a very minor character. It is not anticipated, I am advised, that any serious expense will fall on the denominations until about five years after the start of the Act. That will give the building industry time to get back to normality. We know that at present building costs are excessively high, but I do not think there is any reason to believe that these very high costs will continue very long after the war.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: May I interrupt for a moment? These estimates which were given by various authorities were not based on expenditure now but on what expenditure might amount to in, I think it was the first five years, or at any rate in some appreciable period after the war.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I said I did not think any heavy expenditure would start to fall on the denominations until after the first five years. We all agree that there will be an increased cost of building and the figure of 35 per cent. has been quoted. I do not think the President ever said that in his view there would be a 35 per cent. increase in the cost of alterations, but he gave 35 per cent. as being—I think the phrase used was—the overall increase in costs and prices, and this would no doubt include building costs. It is impossible to put into an Act of Parliament, or to give a firm estimate of, the exact figure by which building costs will be raised.
Then there is the question of loans of which the noble Earl, Lord Grey, spoke. Those loans are offered as an alleviation and I think a very important alleviation. If a school is called upon to spend £1,000 it is clearly a very important matter that that money can be borrowed at cheap rates and repaid over a period of 30 or 40 years. That eases the burden enormously. Therefore I think I can claim that my

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right honourable friend in that manner has gone as far as he can to alleviate the burden that will necessarily fall upon the denominations. As my noble friend Lord Rankeillour will, I think, recognize, if this Amendment were approved by the House questions of privilege would inevitably be raised in another place.
LORD QUICKSWOOD: Why?
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Because it would involve an appreciable increase in the burden on the taxpayer.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: No.
A NOBLE LORD: On the ratepayer.
LORD QUICKSWOOD: The ratepayer is not protected by privilege to anything like the extent that the taxpayer is protected. It has been decided by the Speaker that expense which involves an incidental charge on the ratepayer is not necesarily a matter to which the House of Commons could not agree without waiving its rights.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: If I have put the matter too strongly I apologize and I defer to my noble friend Lord Quickswood who is very learned in these matters, but apart from that it would be in my right honourable friend's view a fundamental departure from the settlement to which the Free Churches and those who object to denominational education are parties and by which they are affected. Therefore he could not accept this Amendment without raising a storm which I am afraid would very much endanger the success of his whole scheme.
EARL STANHOPE: I understood my noble friend to say that no heavy expense would fall on the denominations for five years. Surely that is an amazing statement. It would mean that no black list school is gong to be improved for five years. That surely is not the intention of the Government.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: No, but I am speaking of aggregate figures. If the noble Earl follows the processes of the Bill he will see that they work out something like this. Part II comes into force on April 1, 1945. Then the local education authorities have to make their development plans, the schools have to be consulted and they have to elect whether they are going to be aided schools
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or controlled schools. Then the scheme has to be worked out, and of course in a great many cases new secondary schools will have to be established. It is the intention of the Government to facilitate the provision of temporary buildings to cater for the raising of the school-leaving age to fifteen. That will be done at public expense. Moreover, reorganization would of course immediately free a great many school places. It is not anticipated therefore that the demand for structural alterations to the primary schools would be very important until about three years after the war. I said there would be some expenditure for three years, but that it is not anticipated that there will be heavy expenditure until after about five years. My noble friend must bear in mind that schools will not be the only buildings to be erected. The building industry will be in a tremendous bottleneck and schools will have to take their share of building labour with houses and other buildings that are required. Then, of course, there is the problem of training teachers. If my noble friend would like further details I could give them, but I am advised that there will be no serious expense to fall on the denominations for about five years after the passing of the Act, though there would be a commencement of expenditure after about three years.
EARL STANHOPE: If my noble friend thinks that schools are on the black list merely as a result of overcrowding he will find that that is far from being the case. I wish it were true.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: There is a great deal that my noble friend has said that I cannot accept but I only want to refer to two things. First he used the words I think "agreed between the leaders of the Churches." It was only agreed that they would do their best to work it.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I did not say that. If my noble friend thinks I did I feel sure he is mistaken.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: All that they did was to agree under protest that they would do their best to work it. That cannot be called agreeing to the terms. But really this Amendment does not involve even ratepayers' privilege. In order not to allow that point to come up I expressly

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put it as relieving the managers of a certain liability, and thereby it may be, unfortunately, they are acquiescing in a lower standard. There is really no question of privilege on this Amendment as it stands. I know, as Lord Gorell said yesterday in another connexion, that if the Government do not accept an Amendment it is no use dividing the House upon it at this stage. But I certainly will not withdraw it. I will allow it to be negatived.
On question, Amendment negatived.
THE EARL OF PERTH THE EARL OF PERTH moved, in paragraph (b) of subsection (3), to insert "alterations or extensions" after "repairs." The noble Lord said: My noble friend Lord Rankeillour has asked me to move this Amendment on his behalf. I shall be able to be very brief. The Amendment is obviously of very considerable importance to the managers of certain schools. I do not think that there is any question of principle involved because the principle has already been admitted by the Government in saying that the local authority would be responsible for repairs. That being so, they are doubtless willing that it should also be responsible for "alterations and extensions." This is of great importance because a large number of schools are situated in towns, and it may be extremely difficult, and indeed impossible, to acquire land for the extension of playgrounds in those large towns. Even if it is possible the expense would be very great. We feel that the burden which would thus be thrown on the managers and governors might become intolerable and lead to the school not being able to continue to function because it would have to comply with those particular regulations. I hope the noble Earl will be able to accept the additional words which I propose. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 49, after ("repairs") insert ("alterations or extensions").—(The Earl of Perth.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am advised that this Amendment is unnecessary because the Bill already effects what the noble Earl desires and what indeed the Government also desire. As I understand the Amendment it is designed to secure that the cost of alterations or extensions to school playing grounds or playing
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fields in aided and special agreement schools should not fall on the managers or governors. By subsection (3) (a) this is secured. It contains a requirement that managers or governors shall be responsible for alterations, which by definition includes enlargements which do not amount to the establishment of a new school, to the school playground or playing fields, required in order to secure that the school premises comply with the required standard. That is, responsibility for alterations to the school, playgrounds, or to the playing fields is not placed on managers or governors but falls upon the local education authority.
THE EARL OF PERTH: I am very glad to have that assurance from the noble Earl, but I would like to call attention to an important point. When this question of repairs was discussed in another place the Parliamentary Under-Secretary stated that the question of repairs to the playground did not include the alteration and improvement of the playground. I find it a little difficult, therefore, to reconcile the two statements. Consequently I do hope that these words can be inserted ex abundanti cautea.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: May I ask the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, on what words in subsection (3) of Clause 14 does he rely in support of his contention? Is not the effect that buildings do not include playgrounds and therefore playgrounds fall to be dealt with by the local authority? I hope I may take my noble friend's words as law, but, of course, this is a matter of interpretation, and I may have to ask him at a later stage to make things a little clearer to the lay mind.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: May I point out that the noble Earl has referred in this connection to the Interpretation Clause, 107. In the Interpretation Clause the word "repairs" does not appear at all. The noble Earl, if I understood him aright, has referred us to the definition of the word "alterations." "Alterations" is the very term which I understood the noble Earl opposite desires to insert. The word "repairs" standing by itself is not to be found. It would appear to me that the explanation given by the noble Earl in charge of the Bill is not altogether relevant.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): I think that perhaps my noble

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friend who has just spoken may be under a slight misapprehension. The reference which is made to Clause 107, which is the Interpretation Clause, is not to the definition of "alterations" in subsection (1) of that section, but is a reference to sub-section (2) at the bottom of page 79, which defines the duties of a local education authority. I cannot claim to have looked into this matter minutely, but I think I follow the argument quite clearly and that the Bill as it stands is right. I will look into it and make myself satisfied. I am quite clear that the reference is to the bottom of page 79 and not to the definition.
THE EARL OF PERTH: In view of the statement of the noble Earl, I am of course prepared to withdraw this Amendment, but I would ask him if, in view of the quotation given from the statement made by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary, he would verify the whole position at the Report stage.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I shall be very pleased to do that.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved, in paragraph (b) of subsection (3), to leave out "the school" ["the school buildings"] and insert "any." The noble Earl said: This is simply a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 1, leave out ("the school") and insert ("any").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD AMMON LORD AMMON moved to insert at the end of subsection (4):
"And if at any time a local education authority represents to the Minister that the managers or governors of an aided school or a special agreement school have failed to carry out their obligations under paragraph (a) of the last foregoing subsection and the Minister is satisfied that the education of the children attending tae school is in danger of being prejudiced thereby, the Minister may, after due notice to tire managers or governors and after consideration of any objections made by them, make an order revoking the order by virtue of which the school is an aided school or a special agreement school and directing that it shall be a controlled school."
The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Nathan, who is ill and in hospital, I beg to move this Amendment. Subsection (3) deals with the maintenance of aided and special agreement
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schools. Paragraph (a) lays it down that certain expenses shall be payable by the managers or governors of the school as required by the local education authority for the purpose of securing that the school premises shall conform to the prescribed standards. But it seems to me that under subsection (4) a way is provided in law whereby that might be avoided, and it is to meet that situation that my noble friend has tabled this Amendment. Subsection (4) reads:
"If at any time the managers or governors of an aided school or a special agreement school are unable or unwilling to carry out their obligations…it shall be their duty to apply to the Minister for an order revoking the order by virtue of which the school is an aided school or a special agreement school, and upon such an application being made to him the Minister shall revoke the order."
It seems to me that that is simply providing a way out for what has already been stipulated, and it will undoubtedly be taken advantage of in order to prevent proceedings when these necessary repairs are required to be made in order that there might be a decent school.
It is also stipulated that in the event of the managers being unable or more particularly unwilling to carry out the repairs, then the school should become a controlled school and should come under the local education authority which would have power to carry out the necessary repairs. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 13, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Ammon.)
THE LORD BISHOP OF WAKEFIELD: May I just say a word on this Amendment? I canot help thinking that it is not really necessary. There are two sides to this question. This Amendment very rightly desires to make sure that the managers of the aided schools and the specially assisted schools shall carry out the repairs which they undertake to do. But it is worth remembering that we have suffered a good deal from certain local education authorities in the past in this respect, that repairs and alterations to schools have been demanded, and then what has happened is that the managers have been unable to undertake the heavy expenditure involved, sometimes amounting to £1,000 or £2,000. The consequence is that the school has been handed over to the local education authority, and then, over a period of perhaps ten or fifteen

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years—I could quote such cases—the education authority has done only a few necessary repairs and has never carried out those things which were originally demanded of the managers. There is very grave apprehension on this matter in the part of the country from which I come—the West Riding of Yorkshire—that the managers of schools may hand over those schools as controlled schools, and that then it may be found that instead of the alterations being carried out there will be a similar delay to that to which I have referred. That is what has occurred in the past. Therefore it is not fair to managers of denominational schools to suggest that all the fault is on their side.
I notice that the Amendment now under consideration states that—
"… the Minister may, after due notice to the managers or governors and after consideration of any objections made by them, make an order revoking the order by virtue of which the school is an aided school or a special agreement school and directing that it shall be a controlled school."
The main point I would make is this: that in Clause 93 (1) of the Bill there is a provision that if the Minister is satisfied that any local education authority or managers have failed in their duty he may make an order declaring them in default and giving directions for the purpose of enforcing the execution of such order as appeared to him to be expedient. Therefore I submit that the Amendment which is now moved is quite unnecessary.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: The Government cannot accept my noble friend's Amendment. In passing I desire to say how sorry we are to hear that the noble Lord, in whose name this Amendment was put down, is ill and in hospital. Subsection (4) of Clause 14 lays it down that if the managers of a denominational school are unable to comply with the necessary improvements to the building they should inform the Minister and the Minister then issues an order making the school a controlled school. By this Amendment it is sought to give the Minister power in effect to say to the managers of the school who fail to solve this problem that the school must become a controlled school. I think that is very undesirable. The question as to whether the managers of an auxiliary school have failed in their duties under this Act or not is really a question that ought not to
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be left to any Minister, but one that ought to be tried by the Courts, and the procedure that the Bill contemplates is that if the Minister is of opinion that the managers of an auxiliary school are failing to carry out their obligations under this Part of the Act, he should proceed against them eventually by mandamus. It would then be decided by the Courts whether the managers have fulfilled their obligations or not. That, in the opinion of the Government, is a much more satisfactory method of dealing with this particular problem.
LORD AMMON: I am rather alarmed at the statement just made by the noble Lord, for it seems to me that he is envisaging that this Bill is going to give rise to a good deal of Judge-made law. I gather from the right reverend Prelate that there is a plea for the continuance of schools that are unfit and that ought to have long since been discontinued. However, I see no use in pressing the matter at this stage and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved, at the end of the clause, to insert:
"(6) In this section the expression 'school buildings,' in relation to any school, does not include any buildings required only for affording facilities for enabling the local education authority to carry out their functions with respect to medical inspection or treatment or for affording facilities for providing milk, meals or other refreshment for pupils in attendance at the school."
The noble Earl said: The purpose of this new subsection is to remove a possible in- consistency between Clause 14 and Clauses 46 (5) and 47. The new subsection puts it beyond doubt that the local education authority must pay for such parts of the school buildings as are required solely for medical inspection and treatment and for school meals. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 27, at end insert the said new subsection.—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 15:
Transfer of county and auxiliary schools to new sites, and substitution of new auxiliary schools for old ones.
(2) Where any proposals submitted to the Minister under subsection (2) of Section twelve of this Act include a claim that the school

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thereby proposed to be maintained by the local education authority as an auxiliary school should be maintained by them in substitution for another school at the time being maintained by a local education authority as an auxiliary school or for two or more such schools which is or are to be discontinued, then, if the Minister is satisfied that the school will be so maintained, he may, if he approves the proposals with or without modifications, by order direct that the school shall be deemed to be in substitution for the discontinued school or schools, and where such an order is made the provisions of this Act relating to the discontinuance of auxiliary schools shall not apply with respect to the discontinuance of the school or schools to be discontinued.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved, in subsection (2), to leave out all words after "Where" down to and including "them" and insert
"in connexion with any proposals submitted to the Minister under subsection (2) of Section twelve of this Act it is claimed that any school or schools thereby proposed to be established should be maintained by the local education authority as an auxiliary school."
The noble Earl said: There are two other Amendments which are consequential. They are all part of the same proposal. The object of the Amendments is to introduce a greater measure of elasticity in the new arrangements that are contemplated under the Bill. The present Clause 15 contemplates that one new school may replace two old ones, but it does not envisage the situation in which two new schools will replace in whole or in part one or more old ones. The Amendments in my name on the Paper are simply designed to remedy this defect and to enable new schools to be in replacement of old schools in the various circumstances which may be possible. I hope that I have made my point clear. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 41, leave out from ("Where") to ("in") in line 45, and insert the sail new words.—(The Earl of Selborne.)
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: Can the noble Earl tell us definitely whether in these cases a school which is set up in substitution does or does not count as a new school? We have received information from two quarters on this in opposite directions, but either quarter would normally be held to be decisive. We should prefer that the school should not count as a new school but as a substituted school, and I take it that that will be clearer under the Amendment than it would be otherwise.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Yes. The Amendment is designed for that purpose, but there is one point which should be made clear and borne in mind. A new school might be held to be in substitution for an old school in respect of a certain number of the latter's pupils but not in respect of all of them, and the financial assistance that the Government gave would of course be affected by that consideration. That is the only qualification which I should like to make to the statement which the most reverend Primate has just made.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 48, at end insert ("or schools proposed to be established").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 2, leave out from ("that") to ("and") in line 4, and insert ("the school or schools proposed to be established shall be established in substitution for the school or schools to be discontinued").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, That Clause 15, as amended, be agreed to—
LORD RANKEILLOUR: Following on what the most reverend Primate has just said, I should like to ask the noble Earl in charge of the Bill how the site is to be provided. Will the compulsory powers proposed to be given to the Government under another Bill now introduced be used to provide for the site, or how otherwise will it be provided? As the most reverend Primate has said, on this as on other points we have had sonic rather contradictory semi-official opinions by way of interpretation. The latest one, I think, is quite satisfactory, though it seems to proceed by an extremely intricate process of relating one clause to another. I do not know whether the noble Earl can do anything to clear this up at the moment; if not, I invite him to consider it.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am now able to answer the question put by my noble friend. The Government are taking powers, I think by this Bill but also by another Bill, to enable the sites that are required for denominational schools as well as those for county schools to be acquired compulsorily. That answers the first part of my noble friend's question.

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It will be no more difficult for a new auxiliary school or a substitute auxiliary school to be built than for a county school. If I understood him correctly, he also asked me whether the cost of the site would be included in the cost of the school. I have not consulted my right honourable friend on that point, but I imagine it certainly would be, because the cost of the site in this case would necessarily be part of the cost of building the school, and I think that it would inevitably be reckoned as such. I would remind my noble friend that if it was a school in substitution of a school which was closed, before the Government paid to the governors the moneys due to them under this Bill they would deduct or take into account any sums that the governors realized by selling the old premises. The value of the premises given up would be part of the transaction and be taken into account; and, as that is so, I think that certainly the cost of the new site would also have to be borne in mind.
Clause 15 as amended, agreed to.
Clause 16:
Constitution of managers and governors and conduct of county schools and auxiliary schools.
16.—(1) For every county school and for every auxiliary school there shall be an instrument providing for the constitution of the body of managers or governors of the school in accordance with the provisions of this Act, and the instrument providing for the constitution of the body of managers of a primary school is in this Act referred to as an instrument of management, and the instrument providing for the constitution of the body of governors of a secondary school is in this Act referred to as an instrument of government.
(4) Where it appear to the Minister that any provision included or proposed to be included in the instrument of management, rules of management, instrument of government, or articles of government, for a county school or an auxiliary school is in any respect inconsistent with the provisions of any trust deed relating to the school, and that it is expedient in the interests of the school that the provisions of the trust deed should be modified for the purpose of removing the inconsistency, he may by order make such modifications in the provisions of the trust deed as appear to him to be just and expedient for that purpose.
EARL STANHOPE EARL STANHOPE moved, in subsection (1), to leave out all words after "school," where that word occurs for the fourth time, and insert "or of the
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governors of a secondary school is in this Act referred to as the articles of association." The noble Earl said: This is really a drafting point. Frankly, I do not see any adequate reason why a difference should be made between the managers of a primary school and the governors of a secondary school. Your Lordships will see that under the Bill they are given different terms in regard to what are called "instruments." That really means articles of association, by which the managers or governors come into relation with the local authority. It seems to me that "articles of association" describes what is meant rather better, and I hope in a not less legal form than at present under the Bill. My noble friend yesterday promised us a handbook in order that this Bill should be elucidated for the benefit of the public. I do not envy the officials of the Board when they have to elucidate this clause and Clause 22. It seems to me that if this Amendment is accepted that task will be very much simplified, and it will be much easier to understand both these clauses. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 23, leave out from ("school") to the end of subsection (1) and insert ("or of the governors of a secondary school is in this Act referred to as the articles of association").—(Earl Stanhope.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am afraid that I disagree with my noble friend; I do not think that "articles of association" would be a happy phrase in this connexion. It is, after all, a well-known phrase in company law; we all know what "articles of association" means in connexion with limited liability companies. That is surely not an appropriate analogy. It seems to me that "instrument of management" is quite an appropriate and adequate term, and I hope that my noble friend will not press us to alter it.
EARL STANHOPE: I ask leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD GORELL LORD GORELL moved, in subsection (4), to leave out "just and". The noble Lord said: This is a small Amendment, but I think it is a desirable one. We have been told on a number of occasions that the drafting of this Bill is superlatively good; nevertheless I cannot help feeling that in some cases, of which this

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is one, it can be improved. We are giving under this Bill very great powers to the new Minister, and I think that it is rather cynical to suggest that he would do something that was not just on the grounds that it was expedient, or that he would decide that if something was just he could not do it because it was not expedient. Either these words are tautologous or else there is some distinction between them which is not apparent. The Committee will observe that in line 7 the word "expedient" alone is used, and I think it would be clearer that if in line it that were done also. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 11, leave out ("just and").—(Lord Gorell.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My noble friend Lord Selborne thinks it would be more appropriate for me to deal with this than anybody else, and I feel much flattered. By the phrase "just and expedient"—surely quite an appropriate phrase here—we are authorizing the Minister to make a modification. One would have thought that it was quite right to authorize him to make such modifications as appear to him to be just and expedient. That he would make an alteration which was unjust, merely because he thought it was expedient, because of improper influence or other corrupt motive nobody would believe. If there were such a person he ought certainly to be prevented from doing that by being told he must be just. On the other hand, it is not always the case that what is just is expedient at that particular moment. We have to use common sense about it, and I think realty the phrase is one which we should keep in the Bill, though I quite agree the question is whether it is expedient in the interests of the school. But that really is a different case. Therefore I myself in this case stand for justice.
LORD GORELL: I cannot say that I do not also stand for justice, and therefore I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause i6 agreed to.
Clauses 17 to 20 agreed to.
Clause 21:
Powers of local education authority as to use and care of premises of auxiliary schools.
21.—(1) The school premises of a controlled school shall be occupied and used in
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accordance with the directions of the local education authority, so, however, that the managers or governors of the school shall be-entitled to determine the use to which the school premises or any part thereof shall be put on Sundays and on Saturdays except when required to be used on Saturdays for the purposes of the school or for any purpose connected with education or with the welfare of the young for which the local education authority desire to provide accommodation on the premises or on that part thereof.
(2) If the local education authority desire to provide accommodation for any purpose connected with education or with the welfare of the young and are satisfied that there is no suitable alternative accommodation in their area for that purpose, they may require the managers or governors of any aided school or special agreement school to provide free of charge accommodation for that purpose on the school premises or any part thereof on any week-day when not required for the purposes of the school, so, however, that the managers or governors shall not be required to provide such accommodation on more than three days in any week.
THE LORD BISHOP OF TRURO THE LORD BISHOP OF TRURO moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "on Sundays and." The right reverend Prelate said: Under Clause 17 (3) only one-third of the managers of the controlled schools will be foundation managers. On the new body of managers, therefore, the old denominational foundation will be outnumbered by two to one. Clause 21 as it stands gives the new body of managers the right to determine the use to which the school premises shall be put on Sundays, and on Saturdays with the qualification mentioned. My Amendment accepts this regulation for Saturdays but asks that on Sundays the right to determine the use of the schools shall be given to the foundation managers, as representing the original foundation, rather than to the body of managers as a whole, on which the foundation managers are outnumbered. An illustration will make my plea clearer. Take a Church school which, becomes a controlled school; what I have to say applies to other denominations as well, but I take a Church school as an example. Suppose there are six managers, on the governing body: only two will be-foundation members representing the original church foundation; the other four, appointed by the education authority, might be, let us say, members of no, Christian denomination at all, and a difference of opinion might arise between them and the foundation managers. In that case, the four other managers could outvote the foundation managers and pre-

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vent the building being used on Sundays for the Church Sunday school.
The Church of England, especially in the country, is often ill-provided with buildings other than the Church itself. I was in a parish a Sunday or two ago which did not even have a vestry. Church people have, therefore, often to rely on the buildings of the Church schools to provide accommodation for the Sunday school on a Sunday. I hope this provision will be secured, and not left in doubt under this clause. I think this modest concession is important because, under financial stress, a good many of the Church schools may have to become controlled schools, even when the managers would much have preferred them as aided schools. This little concession would, I think, be not unfair, and would go some way to relieve the anxieties of the managers, which I have in mind.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 47, leave out ("on Sundays and").—(The Lord Bishop of Truro.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I think the right reverend Prelate has laid his finger on a weak point in the Bill and one which is really inconsistent with one of the fundamental principles of the Bill. It is one of the primary features of my right honourable friend's settlement that the school buildings remain the property of the denomination, and the foundation managers should therefore certainly have the right to decide what should be done with those buildings on Sunday. I have therefore great pleasure in accepting the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD BISHOP OF TRURO: The next Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 5, at end insert ("and the foundation managers or foundation governors of the school shall be entitled to determine the use to which the school premises or any part thereof shall be put on Sundays.")—(The Lord Bishop of Truro.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WAKEFIELD THE LORD BISHOP OF WAKEFIELD moved to add to subsection (1):
"Provided that the consent of the local education authority to the use of the school premises by the managers or governors at any other time when not required for school purposes shall not be unreasonably withheld."
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The right reverend Prelate said: My Amendment is in line with the Bishop of Truro's and based on the same principle. The point is that very often the village school is the only place where there can be meetings in the evening, and what we want is to see that if the school is not needed for educational purposes under the authority, leave should not be unreasonably refused by the managers to use this for a village meeting—which is often not a Church meeting but a meeting for the whole village. It may be said that this is not necessary because no doubt there will be good will and there will be no difficulty about the authority allowing this. But I think, though we ought to base our claims on good will, that it is exactly when that fails, and where there may be a somewhat unsympathetic authority, that we want some safeguard. I suggest that if this is inserted in the Bill it will ensure that the leave will not be withheld on unfair and unreasonable grounds.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 5, at end insert the said words.—(The Lord Bishop of Wakefield.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am glad the right reverend Prelate recognizes that the percentage of cases in which the circumstances contemplated by this Amendment would arise is likely to be very small. I cordially agree with him there; I think that in the vast number of cases in our parishes the difficulty which this Amendment contemplates will not arise. We all know that the school is constantly used for village functions, and I cannot believe that any local education authority, still less the managers of the school from the village or the locality, who are appointed by the local education authority, would be likely to take that unreasonable attitude in this matter. Therefore, the right reverend Prelate proposes in his Amendment that these facilities shall not be unreasonably withheld. I also recognise that in employing that phrase he has employed a phrase that is very well known to the law and occurs in quite a number of Acts of Parliament. That phrase does not however occur in this Bill. This Bill goes upon the assumption that everybody will be reasonable, and my right honourable friend cherishes the hope that he will be able to maintain that position.
The right reverend Prelate would ask me then how the Bill proposes to resolve

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such a difficulty if it did occur. I can direct his attention to Clause 64. That clause lays it down that if any dispute arises between the managers or governors of a school and the local education authority it shall in the last resort be referred to the Minister for settlement. That really would be a better method of dealing with a difficulty of this sort than taking it to the Courts. The effect of the right reverend Prelate's Amendment would ultimately be a law-suit. If you say that permission "shall not be unreasonably withheld," then it has to be argued before the Courts whether consent has been unreasonably withheld or not. Surely in the comparatively rare number of cases where this local friction would occur, the matter would be much better settled by the Minister, always remembering that the Minister would have to justify the decision in Parliament, where he can be cross-examined on the subject. I hope that, with that assurance, the right reverend Prelate will not press his Amendment.
LORD ROCHE: May I say, in support of the right reverend Prelate, that it is hardly correct to say the Amendment would involve any resort to the Courts whatever? If permission to use the school were unreasonably refused, that would be the very dispute which would go under Clause 64 (1) to the Minister. All that the right reverend Prelate proposes is that, whereas the clause does seem to leave everything to the local education authority, attention should be called to the well-known fact that a school may be required for other purposes. It merely accentuates that, it is perfectly harmless, and certainly should give rise to no litigation.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: I should like warmly to support the contention of the right reverend Prelate in moving this Amendment, and for this reason. There are a large number of rural villages in which not only is the village school the sole premises available for social activities, but until we have a village club or community centre established, as some of us hope, not only in the towns but in all our villages, it will be perpetually occurring that school premises will be used for social and not exclusively for educational purposes. Representing, as I do, the National Council of Social Service, which has done a very great work during the last few years in trying to develop a communal spirit in the village, and en-
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couraging people of all denominations and all political sects to come together as citizens in order to promote the social and recreational enterprises of the village, it seems to me that to refer such a matter as this to the Minister of Education is not merely inconsistent with the proper communal spirit in a properly conducted village, but it is attempting to use a sledgehammer to crush the proverbial nut.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My noble friend in charge of the Bill allows me to make a suggestion. I am impressed by the observations made by my noble friend Lord Roche. It seems to me very possible that, instead of having the issue of a writ or anything of that kind, if words like these were inserted the matter would be dealt with by the Minister under Clause 64. I would be very willing to believe that the Amendment would so work out. I think myself that the thing wants to be looked into a little more closely. The Amendment speaks of the use of school premises by the managers out of school hours. There is a little more in it than that. In the village school which has been referred to, apart altogether from the use of the school premises by the managers for purposes other than conducting the school—for prize-giving or demonstrations—there is all over the country the use of these small country schools because they have been borrowed by some respectable association which is going to give a dramatic entertainment or to hold a political meeting or whatever it may be. I am not quite sure that the Amendment would cover all that because it says
"provided that the consent of the local education authority to the use of the school premises by the managers or governors at any other time when not required for school purposes shall not be unreasonably withheld."
My suggestion would be, if the right reverend Prelate agrees, that he should withdraw the Amendment on the undertaking by the Government to look into the points, which are very important points, to see that we have got the Bill quite right. I am not quite sure that we have.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WAKEFIELD: I am very glad to withdraw my Amendment on that understanding.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD SOULBURY LORD SOULBURY moved, in subsection (2), after "accommodation," where

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that word occurs for the second time, to insert "in county or controlled schools." The noble Lord said: I can briefly explain the purport of this very small Amendment. Subsection (2), as I understand it, will enable the local education authority, if it is short of accommodation in its own area, and is satisfied that there is no suitable alternative accommodation in its area, to require the managers of an aided school or special agreement school to provide accommodation on certain days of the week, limited to three. Nobody could object to that requirement, but it seems to me that the words in the clause, as far as the local education authority is concerned, are too restrictive.
It means, as far as I understand it, that before a local education authority can require the managers of an aided or special agreement school to provide alternative accommodation, it must be satisfied that there is in fact no alternative accommodation in its area at all. That does not only mean in the county schools and controlled schools; it means that there is no suitable accommodation anywhere in its area. The result of such a requirement may well be unreasonably onerous to the local education authority. There might perfectly well be suitable alternative accommodation in an aided school or a special agreement school that could be provided cheaply and quite conveniently, but none the less, as I understand the subsection, before the local education authority could require the use of this accommodation it would have to search the whole of its area and be satisfied that there was no suitable alternative accommodation—not a barn, not a hut—to be had. I cannot think that Parliament intended that. It seems to me, as I say, to place a very onerous burden on the local education authority. I bog to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 9, after ("accommodation") insert ("in county or controlled schools").—(Lord Soulbury).
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I think my noble friend has exaggerated fears on this score. The subsection enables the local education authority to call on the governors of aided schools for accommodation for purposes that are no part of the duty of the governors of the aided schools, and all that these words to which my noble friend objects mean is that
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before making this request or calling upon the governors of an aided school to give this facility the local education authority shall satisfy itself that there is no other accommodation. I do not think that is an unreasonable condition and certainly I am not aware that my right honourable friend has received any representations from local authorities objecting to this condition. Therefore I hope very much my noble friend will not press his Amendment.
LORD SOULBURY: I am not entirely satisfied with the explanation which my noble friend has given me. Perhaps some of the local education authorities have not yet woken up to the peril in which we are placed by this clause as drafted. I agree that in nine cases out of ten by arrangements between the local education authority and the aided schools no trouble is likely to arise, but I think that where difficulties occur or where there are disagreements this section places a very unfair burden upon the local education authorities if it is going to be interpreted strictly, as indeed it would be in the case of disagreement. However, I do not propose to press the Amendment and with your Lordships' leave I withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 21, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 22:
Secular instruction in county schools and in auxiliary schools.
(3) Save in so far as may be otherwise provided by the rules of management or articles of government for the school the power to control the secular instruction provided in any county school or auxiliary school shall include power to determine the times at which the school session shall begin and end on any day, to determine the times at which the school terms shall begin and end, to determine the school holidays, and to require that pupils in attendance at the school shall attend any class not conducted on the school premises for the purpose of receiving instruction or training included in the secular curriculum of the school.
LORD MOTTISTONE LORD MOTTISTONE moved, at the beginning of the clause, to insert the following new subsection:
"(1) The secular instruction to be given to the pupils in every county school and in every auxiliary school shall include simple teaching as to the right and duty of the citizen to defend his native land."
The noble Lord said: In moving this Amendment I realize that I raise an issue

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of supreme importance and I do hope I shall hive the support of the most reverend Primate and the Bench of Bishops. I also venture to hope I shall have the support of my noble friend Lord Addison and his friends and of noble Lords in other parts of the House. I propose in effect that the words of the Amendment should form part of the pith and substance of this Bill; in other words that the first thing a child should be taught is its duty to the State and what is called the individual duty of each citizen to defend his native land. I hope that the noble Earl in charge of the Bill will not dismiss this matter as one of those subjects which should be left to the local authority. I implore him in all seriousness if he is not willing to accept the words of the Amendment, to accept the view that it is our bounden duty in this House of Parliament, trying to pass an Education Bill at a moment when we are engaged in mortal fight with a tyrant, to say that the first thing a child shall learn is his duty to the State. It is apparent that, should we lose the war, as we so nearly did, the plans of the Bishops and clergy of all denominations would vanish. When I spoke to your Lordships previously I quoted the Bishop of Winchester who had lent me a book proving conclusively that the present tyrant who assailed us, Hitler, has utterly destroyed the Christian faith in every country he has occupied and that tens of thousands of clergy have died sooner than submit to him. I submit to your Lordships that all tyrants must do this. There can be no Christian teaching if a tyrant rules this land. He very nearly did.
Now comes this question: if we do what I ask your Lordships to decree, with the assent of His Majesty's Government, shall we make it less likely for the tyrant to overcome us? There are two arguments and I think they really are conclusive. There is first the positive argument. It has been tried out over and over again. Where the citizens have been taught from their youth up that it is their duty to die for their country, the States so teaching their citizens have survived, while others have fallen. Before I conclude the few words I have to say I will quote something which I think will appeal to everyone, not least to the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel. History proves it even at this day. You may ask Russians, as I asked
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M. Maisky, what has helped them to withstand this tyrant. (Without the help of Russians we should have been overwhelmed.) They tell you in answer to such a question, as they have told me, and it will not be denied, that it has been the foundation of the whole of their heroic defence and now of their offence against the tyrant that every child in Russia has been taught that it is his duty to sacrifice if necessary his life in defence of his country.
It may be asked whether that has not been done here. This brings us to the negative side. No, indeed, it has not. Between the two wars, the last Great War and the one we are now waging, in many, indeed in the majority of schools, the children were not taught what appears in Dicey's Law of the Constitution, that it is the individual duty of every citizen to die in defence of his native land. Far from it. They believed, many of them genuinely believed, that if you wanted to keep order you left it to the policeman and if you wanted to defend the land you left it to the soldier. But that is not the law of England, the law which has enabled us since the conquest to defy the invader. The law of England is that the defence of his native land is the duty of every individual. I say to my noble friend, he has either got to say we will make the children, through the schools, know this as they have not known it up to now, or the Government must bring in legislation to reverse the Common Law and the Statutes which my noble friend Lord Roche and others have pointed out to me lay down that it is the sacred duty of every citizen to defend his land.
I therefore implore the Government to accept the view I now venture to put forward. It is not as if no harm had been done. Everyone will remember the ignorance that prevailed and which culminated in what we call the Oxford resolution, in which the young gentlemen or young persons at Oxford resolved by a majority that they would not fight for King and country. They had not the least idea, I am sure, that they were defying the law of the land. People said that it was just a "rag" and that it was not meant, but that is not true. It was meant, and throughout the length and breadth of this land people thought it was a sound

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doctrine to propound. When I was discussing this matter with the Prime Minister, not in reference to this Bill, I asked if I could quote him, and he said certainly I could. This is what Mr. Churchill said to me: "The effect of the Oxford resolution was shattering on the continent of Europe, shattering to our prestige. We have actual proof now that Mussolini was so affected by it that he definitely came to the conclusion that Britain might be counted out and it is probable that it had a decisive influence on his decision to bring in Italy on the side of Germany." May I claim—certainly no one who was in Malta or in the Middle East will deny the claim—that the young men at Oxford who passed that resolution very nearly decreed the downfall of Britain and her Empire? By their foolish act they did this thing. Surely it is possible that if we start at once to teach every youth his duties to the State this mad folly will not be perpetrated again. When the Prime Minister made his famous speech saving that we shall never surrender, he did not mean in this war but in all time.
I asked another ecclesiastical mentor of mine, a canon residentiary of Winchester, whether I was right in thinking that in the Bible there was some phrase which summed up the whole argument. He said "Yes, I think I can find it for you." I have it here. In that Great Book which contains the sum of human wisdom you will find these words:
"Now, therefore, my sons, be ye zealous for the law and give your lives for the Covenant of your fathers. Call to remembrance all the acts our fathers did in their time. So shall ye receive great honour and an everlasting name."
These were the people who by common consent were the bravest men the world had ever seen. We have got to be like them if we are to keep our empire. I plead with your Lordships and I plead with the Government to accept this Amendment so that we shall follow the words of the Prime Minister and the words of the Bible which appeal to us to sacrifice all, if need be, for our country. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 32, at the beginning insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Mottistone.)
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE had given Notice to move to amend the proposed Amendment by adding the words "and
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the British Commonwealth and Empire." The noble Viscount said: I do not propose to confuse the issue by moving the Amendment which stands in my name. I would like to say with what delight I listened to the inspiring and eloquent speech which my noble friend Lord Mottistone addressed to us at this critical period in our national history. I certainly endorse the view that every child destined to enjoy the abounding liberties and privileges of this great democracy—and how few there are who realize how relatively abounding those liberties and privileges are!—should be taught that it is his duty in the life that lies before him to do his part in defending and safeguarding those liberties and privileges. The reason why I, perhaps rather impetuously, put down my Amendment was that I feel the time has arrived when the unit for this is the British Empire and not this small kingdom in which we live. I want to ask noble Lords to bear this in mind, that immediately the Mother Country entered this war, every single part of the Empire, with one unfortunate exception, at once sprang to arms and so far as I know in no other part were there conscientious objectors.
LORD KEYES: I would like to support the Amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Mottistone, because I think it is vitally important that this Education Bill should include some reference to the duty of the citizen to defend his native land and, I would add, the British Commonwealth and Empire. It is all the more important because in the interval between the last war and this war there was a marked tendency to teach the children in a good many schools a pernicious form of what was called pacifism. In fact, it was regarded as an incitement to war if one pleaded for re-armament or national military service. My noble friend Lord Mottistone referred to that apparently most disastrous action of the young men at Oxford but I do not think they only were to blame. I would remind your Lordships that eleven million men and women signed what was called the Peace Ballot, which had no reference to the realities of the situation in this wicked, unchanging world of ours. I quite agree that it did not mean much but like the Oxford resolution it encouraged the gangster nations to think that we were a decadent people unprepared to defend our great liberties and our great possessions.

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An Amendment was moved in another place that
"every local education authority shall secure that part-time education is provided for all male persons over compulsory school age in the essential work and duty of the Armed Forces of the Crown and the Civil Defence Services."
The honourable and gallant admiral who moved the Amendment quoted from a Board of Education pamphlet issued in 1940 the following passage:
"Opportunities for service must therefore be afforded to young people as well as opportunities to equip themselves for that service. At a time like the present when the nation is fighting for its life the preparation of our youth for full participation in the life of the nation assumes a new significance."
It is indeed significant that it is not until the nation is in dire straits that the education authorities recognize the obligation of every citizen to serve or defend as country. Twice already in this generation thousands of our young men have paid with their lives because we were utterly unprepared for war when war was forced on us. In declining to accept the Amendment Mr. Butler agreed that it was a perfectly legitimate request but he said it was not suitable to put in the Bill the clause referred to. He did remark however that there was quite enough lack of preparation last time and that we must be fully prepared on another occasion. He said the way to achieve this was to continue on the voluntary basis of associating boys out of school hours with Cadet Corps and organizations.
Once again when this was is over service to the country is to be left to individual inclination, and preparation for defence of the country is to be left to the voluntary Cadet Corps. Memories are short. It is only a few years ago that a Socialist Government not only suppressed the Cadet Corps but suppressed the celebration of Empire Day in our schools. Only a few months ago the Minister of Labour struck a grievous blow at the Cadet movement, on which the President of the Board of Education relies, when he included trained cadets of 18 in the ballot for the mines. He declined to make any exception for cadets, and he took boys who had spent as much as three years in Cadet Corps. It could not have affected the coal shortage at the moment, which was due mainly to the lack of education of young miners in their duty to the
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country. What guarantee have we that this sort of thing will not happen again? We cannot afford to leave this important matter of the education and upbringing of our children to politicians, local authorities and schoolmasters who may be in office in years to conic. I do beg your Lordships to make it perfectly clear that in the opinion of this Committee these vitally important matters, in connexion with the bringing up of the nation's children, should be embodied in the Bill.
When rejecting Lord Bledisloe's Amendment with reference to the teaching of Commonwealth and Empire matters in the schools, the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, stated that this Amendment could not be embodied in the Bill because of drafting difficulties, and he warned Lord Mottistone that he would have to give him a similar answer. I think too much is made of these difficulties of drafting, and that in this case it could be overcome as it was in the Disabled Persons Bill, when it was declared that drafting difficulties made it impossible to give preference to men and women who were disabled in the service of their country, although it was the intention of the Minister that this should be done. These matters really cannot be left to the Minister who may be in power at the time. In that case strong pressure was brought to bear in another place and the drafting difficulty was very soon overcome, as no doubt it could be here. I hope that my noble friend will not withdraw his Amendment and that your Lordships will support him in his effort to have the vital principle of duty and service to the country embodied in an Act of Parliament so that in future our children will look upon it as their duty to defend and serve the country which gives them their liberties and their education.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: I do not desire to intervene for more than a moment, but I feel that there are two matters in the speech of the noble and gallant Lord who has just spoken to which I must refer. I have no objection to this Amendment. It is entirely a matter for the Government to say whether it is suitable for introduction into the Bill at this stage and in this place. But two extraneous observations have been made. With respect to one, I am forced to explain that there is a complete misapprehension in the mind of the speaker as to what the facts of the case really were. The first matter

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to which I refer is the vote of the Oxford Union to the effect that the voters would not fight for King and country. It was a very unwise vote no doubt, and nobody, I suppose, has ever defended it except those who enjoyed it. But it certainly did not mean that those young men would not fight for their country in any circumstances. All it meant was that they would not regard the mere statement that it was for their King and country that they were asked to fight as excluding their right to consider whether the war was a just or unjust one. But I have nothing to do with that particular incident. I was quite unconcerned with it.
The noble and gallant Lord who has just sat down said something similar about the Peace Ballot. I really am surprised that anyone with any information on the subject should have made a statement such as he made. The noble Lord appears to regard all those who voted or took part in that very striking demonstration of the opinion of the country as pacifists. Nothing could be less true. It is utterly, absolutely and entirely untrue. A number of questions was set out and people were requested to vote on them one way or another. In substance, what was asked was: "Are you in favour of the maintenance and enforcement of the provisions of the League of Nations?" I have no doubt that the Prime Minister is quite right in saying that if the League of Nations had been supported, in accordance with the desire of the 11,000,000 people who supported it in the Peace Ballot, this war would not have taken place. As to the suggestion that all who voted to answer those questions in the way that the great majority of voters did were pacifists, in the sense of being against war in any circumstances, that is absolutely untrue. On the contrary, a very large majority voted that, in the circumstances, not only were they in favour of the other provisions of the League of Nations, but they were also in favour of those provisions which required members of the League to go to war in defence of that instrument.
LORD KEYES: I think perhaps I may be allowed to reply to the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil of Chelwood. I made no attack on the people who signed that Peace Ballot. I merely referred to the effect that it had on gangster nations, and
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I suggested that it had a similar effect to that of the unfortunate Oxford declaration.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: If a bad effect was produced it was because a very large number of people chose to misrepresent the Peace Ballot.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Possibly I can shorten this most interesting debate by bringing this Committee to Clause 22, page 18, line 32. We have strayed from it into paths to which, I think, we were led, possibly, by the eloquence, the very great eloquence, of my noble friend in moving his Amendment.
LORD MOTTISTONE: May I point out that my Amendment was put down by the officials of the House here as being the proper place in which, so far as they could see, it should go? It is nothing whatever to do with me where it stands. The proper officials thought that this was a good place to put it and there it is.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I was not suggesting anything to the contrary. I was merely suggesting that the great eloquence of my noble friend had produced such a feeling of exaltation in the Committee that we had strayed from the strict purpose of his Amendment. I would like to say that I think the whole Committee listened with very great admiration to the eloquent words with which the noble Lord brought this matter forward and I quite agree that it is a fundamentally important point.
I think that the Government will certainly wish to give effect to the wishes of the Committee in this respect so clearly expressed in the speeches to which we have listened—speeches which quite clearly commanded the unanimous assent of the Committee. But, as I pointed out yesterday, an Amendment of the Bill would not really be an appropriate method of doing this, and I feel sure that my noble friend Lord Mottistone would not insist on the letter of his plans to achieve his object. His object is that the secular instruction to be given to the pupils in every county school and every auxiliary school shall include simple teaching as to the right and duty of the citizen to defend his native land, or, as we might put it, instruction in the elementary principles of citizenship.

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This Bill, as I have pointed out before, does not deal with the secular curriculum in any part, and therefore I am advised that it would be very inappropriate, however desirable in many ways, to put this into the Bill. As my noble friend suggests, the right way to secure what he and indeed we all desire is that the Minister of Education; exercising the authority conferred upon him by this Bill, should issue a regulation to that effect. I would remind my noble friend that any regulation so issued by the Minister has to lie on the Table of both Houses of Parliament and either House can disagree with it if it desires to do so. Therefore the matter is still within Parliamentary control. I am prepared to give an undertaking on behalf of my right honourable friend, the President of the Board of Education, that he will include in the regulations that he will issue as a result of this Bill instructions to the effect suggested, and in view of that promise I hope my noble friend will not press his Amendment.
LORD ADDISON: I am sorry to introduce a jarring note, but I should like to know what it is that the Minister is pledged to do. Let there be instruction in the duties of citizenship by all means. The more that can be instilled into our children the better it will be. But it depends on the interpretation we give to that kind of instruction. I am second to none in my enthusiasm for the principles of liberty represented by the British Empire, but I am very doubtful as to the form of words here suggested and what they might be made to mean. I can understand that Hitler would have rejoiced in words like these—the very thing he has been doing for the last fifteen years with the children of Germany, according to his interpretation of it. Therefore I do want to know what kind of regulation the Minister is going to make. I rejoiced when my noble friend Viscount Cecil corrected the impression given with regard to the Peace Ballot. So very much depends upon the interpretation, and I hope that the Minister will enlighten us further on that point.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: What I said with regard to my noble friend Lord Mottistone is equally applicable to my noble friend Lord Addison. This has nothing to do with the Peace Ballot whatsoever. What I have promised is that
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my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Education will include in the regulations that he makes certain regulations providing simple teaching as to the right and duty of the citizen to defend his native land. That is what I call elementary citizenship, and I hope that my noble friend will take the same view. But in any case if this regulation should prove unacceptable to the noble Lord when it comes before this House he will have an opportunity of debating its terms.
LORD WINSTER: May I ask whether the instruction in the rights of citizenship will include instruction in those matters and principles upon which the defence policy of this country is established? It will be within the recollection of your Lordships that the noble and gallant Admiral of the Fleet Lord Chatfield recently moved a Motion in your Lordships' House the object of which was to ensure that the defence policy of this country should in future be framed and determined in a rather more serene and impartial atmosphere than has usually been the case in the past. In the course of his remarks Lord Chatfield pointed out that this would certainly involve some education being given in these matters—education which is not given at the present moment. I have taken part in a great many elections, and I can safely say this, that where questions of defence policy or armaments have been concerned the electorate have certainly voted upon them in a state of practically complete ignorance. I hope that this instruction which is to be given will include instruction upon those matters on which our defence policy is founded, for whatever have been our views about the rights and wrongs of these questions, none of us would wish that they should be decided by the electorate in a state of ignorance and consequently without any due sense of responsibility.
LORD TEVIOT: I should like to detain the Committee for one moment by recalling a conversation which I had with the first Lord Kitchener. Lord Kitchener said to me when he had returned from Australia that he had found no adequate military organization at all. He put this question to them, "Do you not think that it is necessary and the duty of every citizen so to prepare himself in military equipment and

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knowledge that he is able to protect his home?" I wish heartily to support my noble friend's Amendment.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: With regard to this regulation which is contemplated, it would require to be laid before Parliament by the Minister, but would it be possible for it to be withdrawn by another Minister without the consent of Parliament?
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I do not think so.
LORD ROCHE: Will the noble Earl, before he vetoes putting this into the Bill and proceeding by regulation, consider the terms of the Bill itself? In Clause 41 (1), providing for the establishment of young people's colleges, the local education authority is directed to establish and maintain such colleges for young persons who are not in full-time attendance at any school. Would it not be possible in these colleges as a matter of education to teach the young people such things as would prepare them for the responsibilities of citizenship? A great deal too much is being made, in my opinion, of the difficulties of this subject. There is no difficulty in putting such an important provision in its proper place in this Bill, and I rather tend to advocate this course.
LORD MOTTISTONE: I think we can solve this problem quite easily. First of all, may I definitely ask the Leader of the Opposition if he supports the principle expounded in my Amendment, which has been accepted in principle by the noble Lord opposite? Quite apart from the Peace Ballot, which has nothing whatever to do with it, and quite apart from any other extraneous matter, does he agree that it is the bounden duty, by the law of the land and the Constitution of England, of every citizen to be prepared to fight, and if need be to die in battle, as they have done in Russia and elsewhere, in defence of his native land? If he does agree, that solves one problem.
LORD ADDISON: I am willing to say at once—and I think that this war has proved it—that we are quite ready to die in the defence of our country. I cannot imagine what it is about which the noble Lord is complaining. I cannot imagine a more magnificent demonstration of
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national solidarity than this war has produced. What in the world is he so nervous about? I am not nervous about my fellow-countrymen; they will rally to defend their country at any time, and thank God it is in their nature to do so. I cannot imagine why the noble Lord, and the noble and gallant Admiral behind me, are so wretchedly fidgety. I am not fidgety; I have complete confidence that my fellow-citizens will defend their country when necessary. One of the first duties of the citizen, however, is to be a good citizen to his neighbour, and I should like to hear some reference to the great Second Commandment—"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." That is an essential duty of citizenship, as well as fighting somebody else. I have no use in an Act of Parliament for such words as are suggested. We want the right spirit in our people, and we have it; they have responded to the national need, and they will do so again.
LORD MOTTISTONE: That does not carry us much further. We all want to love our neighbour as ourselves, but we do not want to show our love for him by letting him do the fighting for us while we remain safely at home. As that is what some of the teaching did evolve into between the two wars, it is just as well to make sure this time. However, I have the assurance of my noble friend that he does agree to that thesis, and that gets rid of that difficulty. It is a fact, however, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Roche, points out, that it would be much more sensible to enshrine this in the Bill itself. Lord Roche is no mean authority on this matter. To proceed by regulation has advantages, but it also has drawbacks. To save time, I should like to say that I shall be glad to withdraw my Amendment in consideration of the promise given by the noble Earl that he will proceed by regulation.
I should like to ask him whether between now and the Report stage he will not only provide us with the words—which I think should be quite simple—embodying the principle which we all seek to establish, but also tell us whether it cannot be brought, as Lord Roche suggests, within the four corners of this Bill. Before we leave the question of Oxford, and in deference to the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil of Chelwood, I may say that,

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having had a little to do with landing us in this war, they did try to make up for it just before the war by voting for conscription, but that was a little too late.
THE EARL or SELBORNE: If my noble friend would be so kind as to help the Board of Education by suggesting a form of words for a regulation, I can promise him that it will be carefully considered at once. No regulation could be published, of course, until after the Bill became an Act. With regard to the second point, I shall certainly consult my right honourable friend between now and the Report stage, but I cannot give him any promise.
LORD MOTTISTONE: In view of the very satisfactory reply, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WAKEFIELD THE LORD BISHOP OF WAKEFIELD moved to insert in subsection (3):
"Provided that the consent of the local education authority to the closing of the school by the managers on occasional days or half-days shall not be unreasonably withheld."
The right reverend Prelate said: This is a very pedestrian matter compared with that which has just been discussed, but the Committee will realize that there are times when it is most desirable that the school should be available for local purposes. A distant local education authority is not always aware of those needs, and therefore this Amendment provides that the consent of the local education authority to the closing of the school by the managers on occasional days or half-days shall not be unreasonably withheld. It may be said that this is already provided by certain by-laws and by certain authorities, but I would suggest that, even though that is so, it is a very good thing to have it in the Bill, so that it may be brought to the notice of every authority, and so that there may be this right of appeal. I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Roche, for his intervention on my previous Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 8, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Lord Bishop of Wakefield.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Clause 22 (3) entitles the local education authority to determine the school holidays. That power, however, is subject to what may be otherwise provided by the rules of
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management or articles of government, so that under such rules or articles the managers or governors may be given the power of selecting an occasional day or half-day holiday. In so far as the matter pertains to articles of government it can be settled by the Minister at the stage when those articles are approved; but, if the matter is not dealt with in the articles of government, the Minister would still have power, under Clause 64, to settle any dispute between the managers and the local education authority. I am advised, therefore, that this Amendment is really not necessary; but, in view of the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord Chancellor in the case of the previous Amendment dealing with unreasonable withholding, I can promise that this matter will be further considered before the Report stage. I cannot, however, give any promise as to what will be done. I am advised that the Amendment is not necessary.
EARL STANHOPE: My noble friend just now found the wording of the Bill such that he could not commit it to memory. That difficulty would have been avoided if the suggestion which I made earlier in the proceedings with regard to the use of the phrase "articles of association" had been adopted.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WAKEFIELD: In view of the statement which has been made, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 22 agreed to.
Clause 23 agreed to.
Clause 24:
General provisions as to religious education in county and auxiliary schools.
24.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section the school day in every county school and in every auxiliary school shall begin with collective worship on the part of all pupils in, attendance at the school, and the arrangements made therefor shall provide for a single act of worship attended by all such pupils unless, in the opinion of the local education authority or in the case of an auxiliary school of the managers or governors thereof, the school premises are such as to make it impracticable to assemble them for that purpose.
EARL STANHOPE EARL STANHOPE had on the Paper two Amendments to subsection (1)—namely, after "collective," to insert "religious," and after "school," to insert "and shall be conducted by a teacher professing that religion." The noble Earl

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said: The present situation is that in a very large number of county schools the proceedings each day start with an act of worship. That has been stated by my noble friend who is in charge of this Bill, and it is our common experience. It is now to be the law of the land that every school is to start the day with an act of worship. The only schools—they were not many—where the proceedings did not start in that way were those where the headmaster was either an agnostic or an atheist. What is to happen in those cases in future? It may be that another master will conduct the service. But it might be that a headmaster himself would take it and would then rush through the service and scamp it, or deal with it in a way which all of us would dislike. I think everybody in your Lordships' House would agree that in those conditions it would be far better to have no act of worship than one which is done in the wrong way. Therefore in this and the following Amendment I want to make it obligatory that whoever does conduct this act of religious worship shall believe in that worship.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 4, after ("collective") insert ("religious").—(Earl Stanhope.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I have two comments to make on the Amendment proposed by my noble friend. The first is that he proposes to alter the term "collective worship" to "religious worship." Of course, he will remember that the collective act of worship was one of what were known as the Archbishop's five points, and this is the place where that point is embodied in this Bill. I think that is probably why the phrase which appears in the Bill is used. At any rate that is what is meant—the whole school worshipping together. I submit to my noble friend that the term "religious worship" is repetitive. Worship is religious and can only be religious. An act of worship is an act of religion. Therefore in this connexion if you use the word "worship" you do not want the word "religious": what you do want is "collective," because you want a collective act of the whole school, except such members of the school as are obliged to avail themselves of the conscience clause.
EARL STANHOPE: I may shorten this by saying that these two Amendments go
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together. You cannot say that somebody shall believe in "that religion" unless you have already got the word "religious" in, and therefore I think it will be seen in regard to the next Amendment in my name, that it is necessary to have the word "religious" put in here.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am afraid that the next Amendment would be interpreted as a violation of the pledge, "No tests for teachers." The noble Earl asks me how this matter will be settled. Well, let it be settled in the future as it has been in the past. I think there has been considerable misunderstanding on this matter of the collective act of worship. I am informed that in nearly every school in the country the day's work starts with a collective act of worship. That has been achieved without any friction, without any tests for teachers; and I suggest to my noble friend that it is much better to leave it like that. We do not want to try to force men to act hypocritically, or against their consciences, and therefore I think the matter should be left in the future as it has been in the past. By that method we can really get the best results, by which I mean collective worship in a free spirit.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: We are here dealing with one of the most delicate things in the whole Bill. As I ventured to remark in the course of the Second Reading debate, it has been a matter of some surprise that there has not been more public notice taken of the declarations of the teaching bodies on this subject. They have passed resolutions objecting to making compulsory what is already universal. I certainly do welcome the bringing into the Bill of the collective act of worship, though at the same time I sympathize with the object with which the noble Earl has put down his Amendment. But if it were introduced here I think you would be rather rubbing a sore place, and it is of the most vital consequence that we should to the utmost extent carry the good will of the teachers with us. They are a little anxious, and if this is left open we should have more prospect of securing their hearty co-operation than if we attempted to legislate about it. It is a balance of judgment whether you get the best result one way or the other, but, knowing what I do for instance of the feeling in the Incorporated Association of Headmasters, I feel

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sure we should achieve our object better by leaving it alone.
LORD LATHAM: I think it would be unfortunate if it went out from this House that in the majority of cases where a collective act of worship did not take place, it was due to the fact that the headmaster or headmistress was either an atheist or an agnostic; because it is a fact that in a large number of schools where the collective act of worship did not take place, the main determining factor was the absence of adequate accommodation in which to hold the collective act of worship. It would be unfortunate if the teachers thought it had been said here that in many cases where a collective act of worship did not take place it was due to the absence of religious faith on the part of the headmaster or headmistress.
EARL STANHOPE: Of course I did not say at all that where religious worship did not take place it was solely due to the views of the headmaster, but I do bow to the views of the most reverend Primate. I quite see his point. I am afraid I do not agree with my noble friend in charge of the Bill, whose argument would have been entirely correct if we had not made it obligatory to hold religious worship in schools, as we do in this Bill. But in view of what was said by the most reverend Primate, I beg to withdraw the Amendment. I think he was right, and I was wrong.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD QUICKSWOOD LORD QUICKSWOOD moved to insert at the end of the clause:
"(7) It is hereby expressly declared that it is part of the duty of every teacher giving religious instruction in any county or any auxiliary school to teach his pupils, at such times and opportunities as he may think convenient, that each pupil has a religious obligation to attend public divine worship, in normal circumstances, at least once a week, in accordance with the wishes of his parents and with the teaching and customs of that religious denomination which his parents may approve."
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to draw attention to a truth which I think would be almost unanimously held by your Lordships and indeed by all reasonable people, that in educating the young in religion it is even more important to cherish and encourage the devotional side of the religious life than it is the theological side. To be sure, all devotion rests on certain obvious
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theological beliefs, but the ordinary approach to religion in a child, and indeed in an adult, from day to day and in ordinary life, is devotional rather than theological. People in general, in practising religion, practise it by way of worship, by saying their prayers, they do not practise it by engaging in reading manuals of theology or reciting Creeds. Therefore, though the Bill does in a very wonderful way recognize the necessity for religious education, and provides machinery by which in every school, by some agreed syllabus of religious teaching, the main content of the Christian religion will be offered to all Christian children, it does not provide any machinery, except the collective act of worship at the beginning, by which children will be instructed that their religious life will depend on the degree in which they from Sunday to Sunday practise the rites of religion.
I may say that this is an entirely super-denominational issue. All denominations are agreed upon it. It is a very remarkable fact that the religious observance among Christians of Sunday dates from the times of the Apostles and has been almost universal, amid all the various divisions of opinion that have taken place and is to this day absolutely unanimously accepted by all Christian teachers from the Pope of Rome down to some little independent minister of a small congregation, in one of our great towns. There is not a single person professing to be a minister of the Christian religion who would not inculcate the duty of observance of Sunday unless it be that interesting little body the Seventh Day Adventists who say that the observance should be on the seventh day.
The weekly observance of religion by public worship, which is all that is contained in my Amendment, is absolutely unanimously inculcated by all Christian denominations and all Christian ministers. It is often said that if Christians were all agreed, and if there were not these unhappy divisions that divide Church from Church, the testimony in favour of Christianity would be so overwhelming that the world would be converted. I am afraid that this particular example does not encourage that sanguine belief, because here we have an absolutely unanimous Christendom. There is no exception as far as I know from the inculcation of religion by the practice of weekly worship in church or

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chapel, and yet during my lifetime the observance of that duty has very much decayed. It is practically the most important thing in what I suppose the Government and those who support them in the various religious bodies in the country have at heart—the revival of the religious life of the nation.
I believe it to be the most important thing you can possibly do to encourage the weekly observance of Sunday by public worship in one denomination or another. The wording of my Amendment is absolutely impartial as between denominations. I have left it entirely to the decision of the parents to express a wish to the child, or to inform the child what denomination it ought to be guided by. It would produce the effect that every child would come back from school having the impression he ought to go, week by week, to some place of public worship. I believe that in the overwhelming number of cases parents, however negligently they might have performed the duty in the past, would approve, and it would revivify the religious life of the nation more than anything else. The Amendment falls far short of what I should like to see. I should like it to be part of the purpose to attach a child to a particular denomination. I think that ought to be. I entirely agree with what the Bishop of Chichester put before your Lordships on the Second Reading in principle. Whatever machinery be adopted, really efficient religious education would always attach the child to some denomination or other. This Amendment unhappily falls far short of that, but it does ensure that every child shall be taught that part of the religious obligation which he is recommended to recognize is the obligation to attend some form of public worship week by week in accordance with the wishes of his parents or of the denomination of which the parents approve. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line to, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Quickswood.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I need hardly say that I subscribe to the general principle laid down by my noble friend at the commencement of his speech. I personally agree with practically everything he has said in that connexion, but
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I do not think it would be at all advisable to insert these words in an Act of Parliament. I have had possibly more personal experience of inducing children to go to church than has my noble friend—especially young children. It is quite true that, from the age of thirteen to eighteen, he has had very great experience in compelling them to attend church, but that is not really the problem. My experience certainly is that the only argument that will cut any ice with the infantile mind is example. It would be deplorable to enjoin in an Act of Parliament that teachers, whom you do not necessarily require to attend church weekly themselves, should be instructed to tell the children it was their duty to go to church. In fact the self-respecting teacher who did not attend a place of worship every week himself would have very great objection to doing anything of the sort. That is not the way the problem should be approached. My object, and the object of every one of your Lordships, would be the same as that which my noble friend has in view; but to put it in an Act of Parliament that teachers, whether they are giving denominational instruction or syllabus instruction, should concentrate on this particular point would be most dangerous.
I should like to say this to my noble friend. A great deal of harm can be done by driving children to church too early and for too long. As I have said, I believe the only thing that really influences them is example. It is much more desirable, if you really want to get a child to wish to go to church, to start by not allowing him to go to church. You should only allow him to go to church on great occasions such as Christmas or Easter. The child then grows up with the idea that this is one of the things he can do when he is a man. To start off by driving children to church, and especially when that is done by people who do not go to church themselves, would produce exactly the contrary effect to what my noble friend desires. Therefore I suggest to him, in the first place, that his policy here is mistaken. Secondly, it is open to exactly the same objection as I have had to make to noble Lords who have wanted particular causes of great excellence to be specially mentioned in the Bill. For these reasons I hope my noble friend will not press his Amendment. If he desires to raise the matter of church going in a

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deliberative assembly, I suggest it is in the Church Assembly that this matter should be ventilated rather than in Parliament. I certainly could not support the suggestion that this would be a wise Amendment of the Bill.
LORD QUICKSWOOD: My noble friend has made a rebuttal which will cause the greatest possible alarm in the minds of all religious people. He contemplates that the teachers who are to give religious instruction in the schools will be people who themselves do not practise religion. What a miserable sham the whole Bill then becomes! Are you going to say you are promoting the religious life of the nation by teaching a nominal syllabus to which it is perfectly clear, the teacher by his own life and example attaches not the smallest value, and does not even practice religion himself, for all the world knows le never goes near a place of worship? Is such a person to be entrusted with the religious instruction of the young? What a miserable sham the Bill is by my noble friend's account. How can he believe that the Church of England or the Roman Catholic Church will accept such an outrage on the religious sense, through having people practising irreligion and giving a nominal syllabus of religious instruction. Such a pretence of religious education would be a sham indeed and a scandal from one end of the country to another.
It is the plain truth that if you are going to have religious people, as I hope you are, to give religious instruction they will go to church themselves. If they do not they are not fit to give the religious instruction and they will not be able to give by example as well as by precept the leadership which my noble friend justly thinks is necessary. My noble friend's defence cuts at the root of all education. If children are not to be in the least influenced by what they are taught in school why take them into the school at all? If the way to influence a child is by way of repulsion you had better keep children outside the school and then they will wish to go in. Such arguments are really farcical. As to the suggestion that this might come into the regulations, if my noble friend will give me a promise that it will come into the regulations that might be something of worth. But the point is that religious education which does not lead people to
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go to church or chapel is an unreality. If you are not prepared to do this you are not prepared to do anything worth doing. The religious life of the child will certainly perish, whatever you teach him in school, if he does not form the habit as an ordinary rule of going to church or chapel on a Sunday. Unless that be the result the whole thing will become a complete unreality and it will be of no worth whatever. As to whether I shall press the Amendment that depends on what sort of support I get from the House, but in any case I shall not withdraw it but I shall leave to the Government the disagreeable step of having it negatived.
THE LORD BISHOP OF ST. ALBANS: I do not make any apology for speaking on this Amendment, for it seems to me to be the central part of the whole question and I think it is very fortunate that it has been brought again to the notice of your Lordships' House. If we think that we are really going to attain the object with which this Bill is brought forward, to make religious teaching the foundation of education—that is to say the Christian religious teaching—we must face the fact, and it is a fact agreed to by every single Christian denomination I believe, that if you want to teach children in a classroom, however good your teaching may be, and do not somehow bring that teaching into close touch with the living church fellowship to which their parents belong, your religious teaching tails of its true purpose. We have to face the reality that there are a variety of Christian denominations, but unless that close touch with the church of their parents is maintained and fostered after the children leave school they will not belong to any fellowship in which they will be able to practise what they have been taught in the classroom. I do not think anybody wants to force children. This is an instruction to teachers and if it can be put into regulations better than into the Bill, well and good, but the point is that so far as Christian religion goes I do not believe there is any serious division of opinion concerning how you are to do it. Up to date that idea has really not percolated into the minds of the teachers and it certainly has not percolated into the minds of the general public. I do not think it has really got into the minds of the Government as represented in the Board of Education.

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I welcomed this Amendment at once when I saw it and do welcome it now whether it be passed or not. It will have done something at least to bring to your Lordships' notice what is a vital principle of Christian education, as I believe it is of all religious education. But I am really concerned with Christian education and if it is really, as I believe it is, the honest desire to see that our education is based on Christian principles and that it shall go on after the boy or girl has left school with a view to producing Christian character, then it seems to me we must bring home to the teachers that this attendance at a place of worship is fundamental to the teaching of the Christian faith. I cannot imagine a better way to do it than that your Lordships should pass an Amendment of this kind or that the Government should agree to put it into the Bill, not with a view to compelling either teachers or children to go to church but to make it perfectly clear that this is the opinion of the Government of this country and of this House. Without it the provisions which have already been made for religious teaching in schools will not attain their object.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: I should not like it to be supposed that everybody on the Bench of Bishops is in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Quickswood. We all agree as to the end and believe most firmly that the only completion of religious education is in membership of a worshipping community, but for my own part I regard the means proposed in this Amendment as quite ludicrous and impossible. Certainly impossible because, as has been suggested in relation to another Amendment, it touches teachers on what is already a very sore point and is apparently to apply to them compulsion in a matter in regard to which they are most resistent to compulsion. More than that, Lord Quickswood's Amendment demands that every teacher of religion shall teach his pupil that it is an obligation to attend divine worship at least once a week. There are many perfectly good teachers in schools who are Christians and have an entirely Christian standpoint who do not in fact conform necessarily to the standard of attending divine worship once a week.
I know something of the public schools of this country. I know many teachers of divinity in public schools and I know
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of my own knowledge that not all of them attend divine worship every Sunday throughout the holidays. If the Provost of Eton inquires of his own staff I am not sure he would find that those who teach divinity there would be able with a clear conscience to teach elder pupils that it is a religious obligation to attend divine service once every Sunday. It is really impossible to impose an obligation of this kind on the teaching profession. They cannot be driven in this matter. We may indeed trust as time goes on and as the relations between the Churches and the teaching profession draw more close that what we desire will be reached, but to put this into an Act of Parliament would I think cause a rebellion in the teaching profession. If it remained there I cannot conceive that it would have any useful result.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON moved to add to the clause the following subsection:
"(7) Where the parent of any pupil who is a boarder at a county school or an auxiliary school requests that the pupil be permitted to attend worship in accordance with the tenets of a particular religious denomination on Sundays or other days exclusively set apart for religious observance by the religious body to which his parent belongs, or to receive religious instruction in accordance with such tenets outside school hours, the managers or governors of the school shall make arrangements for affording to the pupil reasonable opportunities for so doing and such arrangements may provide for affording facilities for such worship or instruction on the school premises, so however that such arrangements shall not entail expenditure by the local education authority."
The right reverend Prelate said: This Amendment is designed to secure to pupils who are boarders in county or auxiliary schools suitable facilities for denominational worship and instruction. Under other clauses of the Bill local authorities are enabled and indeed are encouraged to provide boarding accommodation either in boarding schools or hostels for pupils for whom such education is desired by the local authority and their parents. For my part I trust local authorities will make the fullest possible use of these powers. I believe there is great need for such extension of the provision of boarding school accommodation, I believe there is already demand for it and I believe that that demand will grow very much in the future. Be that as it may, if local authori-

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ties do in fact provide boarding schools a problem arises which ought not to be left unnoticed in this Bill. Generally speaking, local authorities in the past have been concerned only with day schools, primary and secondary, and in the day schools a pupil spends his evenings, his week-ends and his Sundays at home. It is on that supposition that the religious provisions in this Bill rest.
We have just been saying, with obvious truth, that no religious education is complete unless it attaches to a church or denomination. The county school cannot in itself forge, or even greatly strengthen a church attachment. On the other hand, it does not, in itself, impede any such attachment. In a clay school the pupil on Sundays and at other times is at home under the influence of his parents and his church and can therefore gain opportunities for training in church membership and church worship but in a boarding school the position is completely different. For three months at a time and for three-quarters of the year the pupil is wholly in the charge of the school. During term-time it is both his home and his school in which he lives and moves and has his being. If in such a boarding school there is no religious worship except in the words of the Bill worship which is not "distinctive of any particular religious denomination," if there is no religious instruction except in the words of the Bill instruction which "shall not include any catechism or formulary which is distinctive of any particular religious denomination," then not only is the pupil in a boarding school being not encouraged, but he is being actually debarred altogether from training in doctrine, church membership and worship of the denomination to which he and his parents may belong. That would be a quite manifest injustice.
When a local authority provides a boarding school its managers or governors become practically in loco parentis and must provide at least facilities for every thing which good parents would provide. The Bill as now drafted does not make it impossible to provide denominational facilities such as my Amendment suggests, but that is only an inference from the fact that it is not excluded by the Bill. This is a matter far too important to be left to rest on a possible inference. Therefore my Amendment makes it perfectly clear that where a parent desires
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that a pupil at a boarding school shall have facilities for denominational instruction and worship the managers shall afford it. I do not know at all whether I have to defend this, but I should maintain that it is not a new principle. In Section 64 of the Education Act, 1921, it is required that a pupil boarded at a special school under the meaning of that Act shall have facilities for receiving religious instruction and attending religious services conducted in accordance with the parent's persuasion, and that such persuasion shall be duly registered on the child's admission to the school. The same principle already exists in the Home Office approved school regulations. That which is being provided for children in special and approved schools can hardly be denied to pupils in these schools.
My Amendment may be criticized indeed as not going far enough. It does not enter into any details and it leaves it to the parents to take the initiative, while in the section of the Act to which I have just referred it is laid down that the denomination of the parent shall be ascertained when the child enters the school and the initiative shall rest upon the school. But for myself I am content to leave the Amendment in its present very general form. No one can see how the principle could be best worked out in practice. We shall need to experiment to find that. There are many different ways in which it may be applied. In any case the relation between the headmaster or the headmistress and the parent will be so close that a matter of this sort will not be forgotten, but it is the principle that I wish to see contained in the Bill.
I ought to draw attention to two further points. My Amendment ends by saying that opportunities may be afforded for such worship or instruction on the school premises. It will be understood that that does not interfere in any way with the preceding sections of the Bill and the restrictions there laid down. My Amendment refers only to extra arrangements made out of school hours for providing instruction in preparation for confirmation or denominational service for those who desire it. This, my Amendment says, may be made where suitable on the school premises. I have consulted some Free Church friends of mine and they are in general sympathy with the Amendment. Some of them did say that they thought

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possibly some of their friends might be suspicious even of this degree of denominational activity on the premises of a county school, but I cannot believe that they really understand the situation.
If you have a boarding school almost ex hypothesi in a country district, fairly remote and with wide spaces around it, and if there you have one hundred or two hundred, or even four hundred pupils of many denominations, it is ridiculous to suggest that if out of school hours provision is to be made for their denominational instruction and worship, it should take place somewhere else than on the premises. The Church of England would be the least affected by such a provision because every place has its parish church, but my Free Church brethren would find it extremely difficult if they had to cope with fifty or sixty or one hundred children in a village where they have no chapel if the children have to be turned out of the schools to go somewhere else to get denominational instruction. I think it is desirable, right and proper that such facilities should be provided on the school premises.
I have one last comment. My Amendment ends with the words "so, however, that such arrangements shall not entail expenditure by the local education authority." I think it is probably right and necessary that these words should be included in an Amendment moved in this House, but I should like to make it clear on my part that I regard them as quite indefensible if you consider the facts of the situation. If it is the duty of the good parent to attach his child to a religious denomination, if at least some parents most earnestly desire that, if in a good boarding school there would be facilities for sharing in worship of the denominations and if the local education authority builds a boarding school and puts pupils there, becoming in loco parentis, it seems to me that the local authority should meet, whatever expense is involved in providing the denominational facilities. What in a day school is or has become difficult, controversial and impossible, seems to me in a boarding school to be an obvious duty resting upon the authority. I dare even to hope that these simple truisms have penetrated the minds of the Government, and that they may be so bold in another place as to remove these last words
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from my Amendment. However, I merely throw that out. I move the Amendment as it stands because it seems to me that the arguments in support of it are so overwhelming, and I trust the Government may be able to accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 10, at end insert the said new subsection.—(The Lord Bishop of London.)
THE EARL OF PERTH: I should like to support this Amendment. I am not going into the arguments so admirably placed before you by the right reverend Prelate. I would only remind your Lordships and the Government that this Amendment helps to carry out the pledge given by the President of the Board of Education that the wishes of parents should pervade the Bill. I therefore have much pleasure in supporting it.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I think that your Lordships will agree that the right reverend Prelate has made out an unanswerable case for his Amendment. I have only to say that I have much pleasure in accepting it, and that I should like to thank him on behalf of my right honourable friend for having drawn his attention to the point.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 24, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 25:
Special provisions as to religious education in county schools.
25. Subject as hereinafter provided, the collective act of worship required by subsection (1) of the last foregoing section shall not, in any county school, be distinctive of any particular religious denomination, and the religious instruction given to any pupils in attendance at a county school in conformity with the requirements of the said subsection shall be given in accordance with an agreed syllabus adopted for the school or for those pupils and shall not include any catechism or formulary which is distinctive of any particular religious denomination:
Provided that, where a county secondary school is so situated that arrangements cannot conveniently be made for the withdrawal of pupils from the school in accordance with the provisions of this Act to receive religious instruction elsewhere, then, if the local education authority are satisfied:—

(a) that the parents of pupils in attendance at the school desire them to receive religious instruction in the school in accordance with the tenets of a particular religious denomination; and

(b) that satisfactory arrangements have been made for the provision of such instruc-

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tion to those pupils in the school, and for securing that the cost of providing such instruction to those pupils in the school will not fall upon the authority;

the authority shall, unless they are satisfied that owing to any special circumstances it would be unreasonable so to do, provide facilities for the carrying out of those arrangements.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My first is purely a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 11, leave out ("act of").(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: The next is also a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 16, leave out ("the said subsection") and insert ("subsection (2) of the said section").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER moved to omit all words after the second "shall" in that part of the clause which precedes the proviso and insert "subject to the provisions of the Seventh Schedule, be in accordance with the principles of the Christian faith, shall be given in accordance with an agreed syllabus adopted for the school or for those pupils and shall not include any catechism or formulary which is distinctive of any particular denomination." The right reverend Prelate said: The two Clauses 24 and 25 are among the more important clauses of the Bill and it is obvious that much care has been expended upon them. Clause 24 deals with the general provision of religious instruction and 25 begins to deal with the special provisions with regard to religious instruction. There is one rather vital point which I suggest it is important to make clear. In what religion or in what faith is the religious instruction to be given? Accordingly, the new words which I propose to insert in my Amendment direct that the religious instruction shall be given in accordance with an agreed syllabus, that is to say should be in accordance with the principles of the Christian faith.
It is somewhat strange, if one considers it seriously, that the conditions in this clause with regard to religious instruction are, first of all, distinctly neutral—"agreed syllabus" is a neutral term—and, secondly, that they are negative.
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They require that the teaching shall not include any catechism or formulary which is distinctive of any particular denomination. In other words there is no positive description of the religion in which the instruction is to be given. I scent danger in the negative clause which says that it shall not include any formulary which is distinctive of any particular denomination. That word "denomination" in itself is not a very clear word. The Oxford English Dictionary gives this definition of it: "A religious sect or body having a common faith and organization, and designated by a distinctive name." It does not say that the denomination should be a section of a particular, well-understood religion, and indeed your Lordships will remember that during the discussions on the agreed syllabus mention has been made—T think by the President himself—of the Jewish denomination. So I cannot help thinking that those responsible for the drafting of the Bill might well look carefully at the present phraseology in case there might be litigation in the Courts which succeeded, if any catechism or formulary which is distinctive of some particular Christian denomination were to be included. I do not think that is an altogether exaggerated hesitation or an altogether idle point, and I suggest that it requires looking into.
But leaving that on one side, the point I wish to make is that there are many great religions in the world—there is Christianity, there is Judaism, there is Mahomedanism and all the well-known religions of the East. There are also other religions—the old religion of the Roman Empire focused in the worship of Caesar, and the modern religion of the German Empire which is focused in the worship of the State. I do not think it was at all inappropriate when the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, in his striking speech on the Second Reading, spoke of the rebirth of paganism. Paganism itself is a religion, and, indeed, this is in a very real sense an age of religions. The ideologies which secure the fanatical devotion of our enemy are really religions. It is of course generally understood that the religious instruction to be given under this clause is instruction in the Christian religion. I am well aware that that is the full and positive intention of the Government. But I do believe that, in these extremely uncertain times, if religious instruction is to be made compulsory the faith in which

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instruction is to be given should be specified. After all, Governments and circumstances change. There is a well-known educational book about other times; it is well-known in the Board of Education and it is entitled "What is and What might be." That book dealt with a different situation and a different problem, but the title does bid us consider what might be as well as what is.
The noble Earl mentioned a few moments ago one of the five points made by the three Archbishops about two years ago and it was obvious that he attached very great importance to the implementing of those five points. The first of those points begins in the following way: "In all schools a Christian education should be given to all scholars, (except, of course, in so far as any parents may wish to withdraw their children from it). The religious instruction should be entrusted to teachers willing and competent to give it." In other words, there is in that first point a very clear designation of the Christian faith as the faith in which religious instruction is to be given. The noble Earl, in reply to some remarks of a general kind on this point on the occasion of the Second Reading, said that he felt that the provisions in the Seventh Schedule protected the schools from any syllabus which was not agreed, and he pointed out that the conference set up under the schedule has to report unanimously and that no conference which contained representatives of the Church of England would report in favour of a non-Christian syllabus. I, of course, accept that, but I do not think it is sufficiently appreciated what unanimity in this conference really involves.
It is a conference of four voters. There are four committees, one representing the Church of England, another representing other religious denominations, a third the teachers, and a fourth the local education authorities. Each of these committees has to make up its mind in which way it desires its voter to vote, so that there must be a majority on each of the committees directing its representative to vote in a certain way. I cannot help thinking that so far as this requirement is concerned the fact that the conference has to report unanimously, while it may secure freedom from a non-Christian syllabus, will certainly give no guarantee that a syllabus will be approved which is satisfactory
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from the Christian point of view. In any event, the Seventh Schedule, in paragraph 10, makes provision for cases in which a conference does not report unanimously, so that the lack of unanimity in that restricted form is fully recognized.
I therefore press that a direction as to the nature of the religion should be given in the Bill. There are, I am told, two difficulties, one of them not very serious, and the other a larger one. The first difficulty is with regard to the Jews. It is significant, I think, in this connexion that the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, speaking of religious instruction, said that it was ideas embodied in the Christian ethic which could alone supply the moral law for European civilization, and he went on to urge that the system of British education, with due regard to conscientious objection, gave full recognition to that fact. Therefore, a very leading representative of the Jewish religion clearly contemplates the Christian religion being the religion in which all, with conscientious exceptions, should be instructed.
But, apart from that, it is worth remembering that the Jewish population is a very small population indeed. There are, according to Whitaker, only 300,000 Jews in England and Wales, the greater number of these, 234,000, are congregated in London, and 38,000 in Lancashire, leaving a very small dispersion over the rest of the country. Of that 300,000, 45,000 are estimated as children under 16, of whom 5,000 are provided for in special schools outside the ordinary State elementary and secondary system. What are 45,000 children of the Jewish community in comparison—so far as numbers are concerned, not quality—with 5,371,000 children of the age between 5 and 14? That difficulty is a very small one indeed. It is a difficulty, however, which we admit and in an Amendment which I am suggesting to the Seventh Schedule, for the instruction of Jewish children in the Jewish faith, we are endeavouring to meet it.
The other difficulty is a more serious one. It is the difficulty of putting into an Act of Parliament the requirement that religious instruction should be in the Christian faith. It is asked whether we can, in an Act of Parliament, define Christianity in a sufficiently effective way to satisfy those who desire the specific

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inclusion of Christianity, and also avoid litigation in the courts. It is urged that a dispute before the courts as to whether a particular agreed syllabus is really the teaching of the Christian religion would be most undesirable. I think that the possibility of such a dispute before the courts is remote, but it is certainly a real possibility and it ought to be considered. Therefore I have asked myself whether there is any precedent under previous legislation dealing with educational establishments, for the inclusion of some phrase of a general kind concerning the principles of the Christian faith. I have in my hand an extract from a scheme which is the common form in numberless schemes made under the Endowed Schools Acts from 1869 to 1908. These schemes have been drawn up for endowed schools, and with regard to religious instruction the provision reads: "Subject to the foregoing provisions" (dealing with teachers) "religions instruction in accordance with the principles of the Christian faith shall be given in each school under such regulations as shall be made from time to time by the governing body of such schools." I do not know of any case in which the character of the religious instruction given in an endowed school working under such a scheme has been challenged. I do not press for the rigid following of those specific words, but at any rate they give an indication of what is possible and what has not been found hitherto to be a target for litigants.
But if it is really objected still that there is a danger in a new move of this considerable character, and that some aggrieved person might object to an agreed syllabus as specific to the Christian faith, on Fundamentalist or Modernist grounds, mud were to bring a suit before the courts, then I wonder whether it would be possible to meet the difficulty in another way. In the present Bill under Clause 64 there is a provision for dealing with disputes. It is provided that where any complaint is made with regard to religious instruction in denominational schools—I will read the subsection—
"(3) Where any trust deed relating to an auxiliary school makes provision whereby a Bishop or any other ecclesiastical or denominational authority has power to decide whether the religious instruction given in the school which purports to be in accordance with the provisions of the trust deed does or does not accord with those provisions, that question shall be determined in accordance with the provisions of the trust deed."
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I suggest that it is reasonable that another subsection should be added to that clause which would provide a way of determining whether the religious instruction given in a county school or a controlled school in any area is in accordance with Clause 25 and Clause 26 (6) of this Bill.
It ought not to be beyond the wit of the draftsman to devise a tribunal or council on religious instruction in county and controlled schools to which a case of difference of opinion on the contents of the syllabus could be referred and by which it could be determined. I cannot help thinking that a small body of persons representing the local authorities, the religious denominations and the teachers might well be given the power to exercise what, after all, really amounts to common sense as to whether a particular syllabus against which complaint is made is a proper agreed syllabus or not. I do press that the point I have raised should be regarded as an important one. If religious instruction is to be compulsory in all schools, we ought to ensure that it is given in the faith in which it is, I submit, intended that it should be given. We have to think of the future, as well as of the present. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, leave out lines 17–20 and insert the said new words.—(The Lord Bishop of Chichester.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: The object of the Amendment is to lay it down in so many words in the body of the Bill that the religious teaching given under this Bill shall be Christian teaching. I can assure the right reverend Prelate that it is the intention of the Government and of the Bill that the religious instruction required to be given shall be Christian instruction, and that the corporate act of worship shall be an act of Christian worship; though no doubt he would agree that where there is a large number of Jewish children a syllabus based on the Old Testament only should be prepared for them, and they should be given the opportunity of Jewish worship; in fact, he has said so much.
The Bill does give effect to that intention, which is not only the intention of the Government but also the intention of Parliament. The Bill gives effect to it in the Seventh Schedule, which we shall discuss in detail at a later stage. It is there

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set forth that there must be a conference between four panels, of which one represents the Church of England, another the other denominations, the third the local authorities and the fourth the teachers. They have to agree unanimously on the syllabus, and that at any rate ensures that it will be a syllabus which the Church of England can accept, and the Church of England is not going to accept a syllabus which is not in accordance with the Christian faith. I think that the right reverend Prelate will and does recognize that the Bill gives practical effect to what is the intention and the desire of Parliament, and puts it beyond any manner of doubt.
He then asks me this question: he says: "In that case, why do you object to saying so in the Bill itself?" It has been borne in upon me, in listening to these most interesting debates, that what we are doing in this Bill is creating a piece of machinery. We have a number of noble Lords here each of whom has a certain excellent cause at heart and wishes to pin the flag of his cause on to the Bill. There has been Lord Mottistone, who has wished to pin the Union Jack on to the Bill; Lord Bledisloe, who wishes to pin the flags of the Dominions; Lord Barnby, who wishes to pin the flag of technical education (which perhaps might be represented by a hammer and sickle!) In the same way the right reverend Prelate would like to hoist the flag of St. George. I have every sympathy with that, but it does not easily accord with the creation of a piece of machinery.
We may get into all kinds of difficulties, and in this case the difficulty into which we might get is that if we put in an Act of Parliament that a syllabus has to be in accordance with the Christian faith, it is open to any one of His Majesty's subjects to bring before the secular courts of this country the question of whether a particular syllabus is in accordance with the Christian faith or not. There was a good deal of trouble—to put it mildly—caused in the nineteenth century by ecclesiastical causes being tried before secular courts, and I think we should be well advised in not adding to the possibility of further trouble of that nature, because there is nothing to be gained by it. What the Government and Parliament desire is already provided for in the Bill, and
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therefore to introduce words of this sort would achieve nothing and might conceivably land us in the future into difficulties and controversies. We might find one learned Judge saying that this or that was, or was not, in accordance with the Christian religion, and other learned and good people violently disagreeing with him. I do not think, therefore, that there is anything to be gained by this proposal.
The right reverend Prelate said that in the deeds of a number of endowed schools the term "Christian faith" was used. I should imagine that that was open to exactly the same criticism, and the fact that no case has yet come before the courts does not settle the question. The formula which he quoted was, however, slightly different from that which is in the Amendment. The right reverend Prelate made a number of very helpful and ingenious suggestions as to how the Seventh Schedule could be improved, suggestions which in his view would get over the difficulties to which I have alluded. If he will not press his Amendment this afternoon I am quite willing to re-examine the matter with my right honourable friend between now and the Report stage. I should, however, like to make it clear that there should be no sort of doubt that it is the intention of the Government and the intention of Parliament that the syllabus teaching to be given should be Christian teaching and that the worship should be Christian worship. There must be no doubt about that; but I also wish to claim that the Bill does ensure it. And unless the right reverend Prelate can show a method by which what he desires can be achieved without getting us into further difficulties I hope that he will consent not to press his Amendment.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: This is a matter about which very many people have felt very strongly. When I put down my own Amendment to the Interpretation Clause it was at the instigation of the British Council of Churches, representing the Church of England as well as the Free Churches, and the Joint Conference of Anglicans and Free Churches, which has done much in the direction of helping us towards agreement in the matter of religious education. Both of them were most eager that something clear should be stated that would be held afterwards to be decisive. I should like first to thank the noble Earl for the

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very fair statement he has made of the intention of the Government and of the Bill upon the point. There is something that can be quoted, and I hope it will be decisive. I cannot be quite happy about the reference to the Seventh Schedule as it stanch; because of what might happen in the Event of disagreement. I grant that that is rather a secondary point but it is a matter of some anxiety. You might fail to get agreement and then, except the declaration just made by the noble Earl, you would have nothing to fall back upon to ensure definite Christian teaching. But we have that declaration. I have no doubt the right reverend Prelate will continue, as I shall also, to explore the possibility of an Amendment to the Seventh Schedule. In view of what the noble Earl has said I shall not move my Amendment to the Interpretation Clause, but if we can find a method of bringing it up on the Seventh schedule which will not be open to objection I shall be glad to take that opportunity. I should like to thank the noble Earl again for the statement he has made.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: I also would like to thank the noble Earl for the friendliness of his concluding words. There is some difference between hoisting the flag of St. George, as he put it, and the other things that have been mentioned to-day, because religion is such a very large and vague subject. But I also echo all that he says about the undesirability of bringing these questions before the courts. I am, however, very much encouraged by his invitation to pursue inquiries as to whether some other way could be found which would secure
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what I feel sure he and I equally desire. With the leave of the House, therefore, I will act on the lines of the invitation and withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved, That the House do now resume.—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed accordingly.

AGRICULTURE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL.
Order of the day read for the consideration of the Commons Message of yesterday, namely, that they have come to the following Resolution to which they desire the concurrence of this House: "That it is expedient that the Bill be committed to a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons."
VISCOUNT CLIFDEN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Duke of Norfolk, I beg to move the Motion which stands on the Paper in his name.
Moved, That this House do concur in the following Resolution communicated by the Commons, namely, "That it is expedient that the Bill be committed to a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons."—(Viscount Clifden.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.
House adjourned.