Sitting of 7 June 1944

PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  CIVIL AVIATION

    Services to South America
    Mr. Wakefieldasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will now assist shipping companies and other proved and substantial organisations to obtain the necessary facilities to enable them to operate air services between this country and South America as soon as personnel- and aircraft become available.
    The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): As the concerns mentioned by my hon. Friend do not yet possess the necessary aircraft and personnel, it would not now be a practical proposition to ask a foreign Government to grant the desired facilities to any particular company. I am, however, taking steps to intimate to South American Governments that His Majesty's Government trust that they will not make any exclusive arrangements that might debar British concerns from operating air services to their countries after the war.

    Trans-Atlantic Services (Solway Firth)
    Mr. Wilfrid Robertsasked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in planning the sites of post-war Trans-Atlantic airways, the advantages of sites in the neighbourhood of the Solway have been considered; and whether any decision has yet been reached.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): Yes, Sir. Sites in the neighbourhood of Solway Firth have been surveyed and their possibilities for Trans-Atlantic flying will receive full consideration together with those of other localities. No decisions have yet been taken.
    Mr. Roberts: Can the Minister say whether there are not some special advantages from the climatic conditions in this area?
    Sir A. Sinclair: That is quite true, Sir, but other sites also have special advantages.

    Proposed International Conference
    Mr. Edgar Granvilleasked the Secretary of State for Air where and when the proposed International Conference on Civil Aviation is to be held; and whether delegates from this country will attend.
    Sir A. Sinclair: In the recent discussions between my Noble Friend the. Lord Privy Seal and Mr. Berle, of the U.S. Administration, the hope was expressed that it would be possible to arrange for a full International Conference later in the year. No definite arrangements have yet been made. The answer to the second part of the Question, is in the affirmative.
    Mr. Granville: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that, before a delegation goes to a conference from this country, we have a policy on civil aviation, and will he see that the House of Commons is given an opportunity of discussing the results of the visit of Mr. Adolph Berle and also the discussion at the British Empire Conference?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Arrangements for discussions, as my hon. Friend knows, are not in my hands, but, certainly, before a delegation goes abroad, they will have to have authority.
    Mr. Shinwell: Will the Minister ensure that, when the delegation does proceed abroad, it will operate on the principle that we are not going to give too much away?
    Mr. Stokes: May I ask whether the Minister can assure this House that Lord Beaverbrook has not already sold the pass?
    Mr. Granville: The right hon. Gentleman has said that he hopes the House of Commons will have an opportunity of discussing this matter. Will he, as the Minister responsible, make representations through the ordinary channels?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I think it is usual for hon. Members who wish for discussions

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    to make their own representations through the ordinary channels and not to ask Ministers to do so. Regarding the question put to me by my other hon. Friend, I can give the assurance that Lord Beaverbrook has defended the interests of this country in the conferences he has held, and that it will be the intention of His Majesty's Government to do so in future.

    Personnel and Aircraft (Post-War Allocation)
    Mr. Wakefieldasked the Secretary of State for Air if the same facilities will be given to potential operators of postwar air transport services to obtain personnel and aircraft as and when they become available after the cessation of hostilities as are afforded to British Overseas Airways Corporation.
    Sir A. Sinclair: When the war is over, our resources in aircraft will be allocated in the way best fitted to promote -the interests of the country. No shortage of men and women seeking employment in air transport services is anticipated.
    Mr. Granville: Does that answer mean that independent operators will be free to purchase American aircraft the same as British Overseas Airways Corporation?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I can see no reason why independent operators, in times of peace, should not be able to purchase American aircraft.
    Mr. Wakefield: Does that mean that there is to be no monopoly for the British Overseas Airways Corporation having personnel and aircraft, over other operators?
    Sir A. Sinclair: No, Sir. It means nothing of the kind.

  OFFICER PRISONERS Of WAR, GERMANY (SHOOTING)
  Miss Wardasked the Secretary of State, for Foreign Affairs whether he can now make any report on the shooting of British prisoners of war.
  Mr. Edgar Granvilleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any fresh information to give on the shooting of 48 R.A.F. officers in a German prison camp.
  Mr. Eden: The Swiss Government was informed by the German Government, on 5th June, that a full report was being prepared, which should be in their hands this week. I am sure the House will agree that no further statement should be made by His Majesty's Government until this report has been received and considered.

  TANGIER

    German Agents' Departure
    Mr. Granvilleasked the Secretary' of State for Foreign Affairs whether the members of the German Legation staff and other German agents have now left Tangier.
    Mr. Eden: With the possible exception of one or two members of the clerical staff, all members of the staff of the German Consulate-General at Tangier have now left the Tangier Zone, and, in accordance with the terms of the recent agreement, they will not remain in metropolitan Spain or in any Spanish-controlled territory. Some German agents have already left the Tangier Zone. His Majesty's Ambassador at Madrid and His Majesty's Consul-General at Tangier are pressing the Spanish authorities to arrange for the early departure of such German agents as still remain in the Zone.
    Mr. Granville: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply; might I ask if he is satisfied that the rest of the Agreement with His Majesty's Government is being satisfactorily carried out?
    Mr. Eden: Yes, I think so. On this point, it is satisfactory that the consul-general and his staff have gone, but it is not quite so easy to identify German agents as it is to identify consular officials.

    Economic Situation
    Sir Herbert Williamsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any statement to make about the economic and social situation in Tangier.
    Mr. Eden: The economic situation at Tangier has, unfortunately, been seriously affected by war-time developments, which have included inter alia the suspension of the important tourist traffic, rapid fluctuations in the rates of exchange, and a fall in imports into the Zone. There has been a sharp rise in the cost of living, from which British subjects, like many other

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    inhabitants of the Zone, have suffered. The rights of His Majesty's Government and of British subjects in the Tangier Zone were safeguarded by the modus vivendi negotiated with the Spanish Government at the end of 1940, and I trust that Tangier will benefit from the general improvement in world economic conditions which should result from the forthcoming victory of the United Nations.
    Sir H. Williams: Does my right horn Friend not think it time that, we reasserted our rights in Tangier, and did away with the illegal Government now prevailing there?
    Mr. Eden: Our rights are safeguarded. As to what the future will be, I should-not like to determine it here and now.

  PORTUGUESE WOLFRAM (EXPORT PROHIBITION)
  Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is yet In a position to make a statement in regard to the export of wolfram from Portugal to Germany.
  Mr. G. Straussasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has now any statement to make about the negotiations with the Portuguese Government about shipments of wolfram to Germany.
  Mr. Eden: I am glad to say that the negotiations which have been proceeding for some, time past with the Portuguese Government regarding Portuguese wolfram exports have now been concluded. Basing themselves upon the special relationship between this country and Portugal, embodied in the Anglo-Portuguese Treaties of Alliance, the latest application of which was the Azores Agreement of October, 1943, His Majesty's Government requested the Portuguese Government to impose a total prohibition upon the export of wolfram. The Portuguese Government acceded, on 5th June, to this request, and the appropriate measures are entering into force immediately. His Majesty's Government, warmly welcome this further proof of Anglo-Portuguese friendship and of- the fidelity of Portugal to the ancient Alliance. This has long been of great benefit to both parties, and it is the
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  desire of His. Majesty's Government that 'this unique relationship, which has developed through the centuries, shall remain as strong a bond between the Governments and peoples of the British Commonwealth and of Portugal in the future as in the past. The recent decision of the Portuguese Government represents, in the view of His Majesty's Government, a service to their cause comparable with the grant of facilities in the Azores to His Majesty's Government last October, and one which should also prove an important factor in shortening the war. His Majesty's Government, who have conducted these negotiations on the basis of the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance, have, of course, been in close contact with the United States and Brazilian Governments, who have shared their desire that the Portuguese Government should see their way to take this important step.
  Sir T. Moore: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the warm appreciation that we all feel for the highly satisfactory results of this most successful agreement?
  Mr. Shinewell: Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware that it has taken the Portuguese Government a long time to stop these exports?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, but it is only fair to say that the Portuguese Government, in their action in respect of the Azores, also made a great contribution.
  Mr. Graham White: Are we arranging to take over the supplies of wolfram which used to go to Germany?
  Mr. Eden: As a result of this arrangement, exports of wolfram are stopped altogether, which was what we wanted.

  BRITISH CONSULAR SERVICE, UNITED STATES
  Mr. John Dugdaleasked the Secretary of State for Foregn Affairs how many British consulates in the U.S.A. have officers dealing with conditions of labour attached to them.
  Mr. Eden: No British Consular officials in the United States of America deal exclusively with labour questions, but His Majesty's Consular officers report on such matters to His Majesty's Ambassador at - Washington, who has on his staff a Labour Attaché, Mr. A. McD. Gordon.
  Mr. Dugdaie: Would not be advisable to have such officers attached at least to the larger consulates in the United States, particularly to deal with trade union matters?
  Mr. Eden: Mr. Gordon is our officer at Washington. I do not think that it would be practicable to multiply that representation in all the consulates in the United States. It would need a very large staff.
  Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: If it would not be possible to have labour officers in all the consulates, would the right hon. Gentleman see whether this admirable experiment, which has justified itself at Washington, may not be repeated in some other parts, at any rate, of the United States?

  ITALY (OVERSEA POSSESSIONS)
  Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will give an assurance that the various statements made during the war by the Government with reference to the former Italian over-sea possessions continue to represent the policy of the Government and our Allies.
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir.

  FREE GERMAN MOVEMENTS
  Sir T. Mooreasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what attitude he takes in regard to the formation of Free German Movements in this country, the U.S.S.R. and the U.S.A
  Mr. Eden: His Majesty's Government have not recognised, nor do they propose to recognise, any such movements, here or elsewhere.
  Sir T. Moore: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that these movements, which I am glad to hear he is not recognising, are not formed for the benefit of our Allies, but, possibly, for the benefit of the German people?
  Mr. Eden: It is a matter of assessment. I have stated our position.
  Mr. George Griffiths: Was not the hon. and gallant Member- in love with the German people in 1939; and did he not say so very often?

  FRENCH NATIONALS (ESCAPE FROM NORTH AFRICA)
  Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the circumstances in which M. le Maigre-Dubreuil and M. Rigaud escaped from territory under allied control in North Africa in order to make contact with Vichy representatives in Spain.
  Mr. Eden: I have no information in regard to this matter beyond what has appeared in the Press.

  VATICAN (BRITISH MINISTER)
  Mr. Hewlettasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs 'whether the British Minister to the Vatican is still exercising his functions where fie now lives; and whether he is able to keep in touch with His Majesty's Government.
  Mr. Eden: His Majesty's Minister to the Holy See has exercised his functions and kept in touch with His Majesty's Government without interruption. Thanks to the courtesy of the Holy See, he has lived within the Vatican City since shortly after Italy's declaration of war on this country. I should like to take this opportunity to pay a tribute to the services rendered by Sir Francis Osborne during a prolonged period of exceptional difficulty under conditions which must be unique in diplomatic experience.

  ENEMY-OCCUPIED COUNTRIES (FOOD SUPPLIES)
  Mr. McEnteeasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, if any negotiations have taken place between the Government of the U.S.A. and His Majesty's Government, following the recent resolution on the question of food relief to enemy occupied areas, which was carried unanimously in the Senate and in the House of Representatives of the U.S.A.; and what has been the result of such negotiations.
  Mr. Eden: I have nothing to add to previous statements on this question, but His Majesty's Government are of course maintaining close touch with the United States Government.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Training Depot (Messing and Pay Arrangements)
    Mr. Liddallasked the Secretary. of State for Air if he has inquired into the messing and pay arrangements at a R.A.F. training depot, particulars of which have been supplied to him, and will he make a statement.
    Sir A. Sinclair: Yes, Sir. The messing arrangements at the station referred to have been specially investigated. There have been no general complaints about the quality or adequacy of the messing and many airmen interviewed by the visiting officer spoke well of their diet. Certain minor improvements are however being made, and queueing for meals, which has been due mainly to limited accommodation, is being reduced. The pay arrangements have also been investigated. These are the same as at most Royal Air Force stations and afford no reasonable grounds for complaint.

    Pay
    Mr. Walter Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that able and leading seamen and equivalent grades in other branches of the R.N. are to receive an increase of 3d. per day in substantive pay and W.R.N.S., if they hold a rating equivalent to able seamen, and leading W.R.N.S. are to receive an increase of 2d. per day; and why the equivalent ranks in the R.A.F. and W.A.A.F. are not receiving any increase in substantive pay.
    Sir A. Sinclair: As the hon. Member is aware, the White Paper announced certain increases in the pay of non-tradesmen private soldiers and said that some, but not exactly corresponding, adjustments would be made in the pay scales of the other two Services. The adjustments in the pay scales and conditions of re-classification of airmen and airwomen, of which I informed the hon. Member in my reply of 24th May, secure broad equality between Air Force personnel and corresponding personnel of the Army and Navy. The new rates for non-tradesmen aircraftmen correspond very closely with the new rates for non-tradesmen private soldiers, but the adjustments in Naval rates of pay have not corresponded so closely, because the advancements to
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    higher rates of pay are not given in the Navy after the same periods of service as in the R.A.F. At some stages the airman gets more pay than the seaman; at others, the seaman is ahead of the airman, but taken as a whole the rates for airmen and airwomen resulting from the recent changes are fully equal to those of the Royal Navy and the W.R.N.S.
    I understand that in the Royal Navy adjustments have been made not only in the seamen's branch but in certain other branches also, some of which are on higher rates of pay than the seamen's branch. Here again the incremental periods are different from those of the comparable branches in the Royal Air Force but, taken as a whole, the revised rates which result from the increases granted in these other branches are not more favourable than those. payable in the comparable Royal Air Force groups.
    Mr. Driberg: Does all that mean that the Royal Air Force is being levelled down to the other two Services? If so, why not level up the other two to the Royal Air Force?
    Sir A. Sinclair: No, Sir, it does not mean that. It means that substantial advantages are being gained by the Royal Air Force from the new scales of pay, and, while I regret the length of the answer which I had to give to the House, I am sure it will convince my hon. Friend wheh he sees it in HANSARD.
    Mr. Edwards: Does it also mean that, in the Royal Air Force, there is no increase for any personnel serving less than three years, whereas in the Royal Navy they get an immediate increase of 3d. a day without three years' service?
    Sir A. Sinclair: No, Sir, I can assure my hon. Friend that it does not mean that.

    Air Crew Volunteers (Training)
    Mr. Dobbiéasked the Secretary of State for Air if he is aware that great dissatisfaction still exists amongst many of the men enlisted for air crew at the delay in their calling up and, when called up, the delay in continuation and completion of their training; and whether something can be clone to remove existing bottlenecks in this connection.
    Sir A. Sinclair: No, Sir. There is no bottle-neck impeding the flow of air crew into the squadrons. The squadrons of

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    the Metropolitan Air Force are all fully manned with air crew. The rate of in-take of volunteers for air crew training depends on operational and other factors which also affect operational and other factors which also affect the length, of training periods. Adjustments are, of course, necessary from time to time, and I would refer my hon. Friend to the detailed reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Shrewsbury (Mr. Arthur Duckworth) on 19th April last and of which I am sending him a copy. I have every sympathy with the desire of air crew volunteers to complete, their training, and I can assure my hon. Friend that there is no avoidable delay at any stage.

  BRITISH NANUFACTURANG AND RESEARCH COMPANY
  Sir Frank Sandersonasked the Minister of Aircraft Production if he has any Statement to make with regard to the acquisition by his Ministry of the British Manufacturing and Research Company Limited, and in regard to the proposed change of management; and whether he can state the respective costs of the products made by the British Manufacturing and Research Company, Limited, and by' the company whose management it proposed to introduce at the factory of the British Manufacturing and Research Company, Limited.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aircraft Production (Mr. Lennox-Boyd): My Department has agreed to acquire from the British Manufacturing and Research Company, Ltd., certain assets owned by the company, but this transaction does not involve a change of management. Discussions have taken place regarding the acquisition of all the assets of the company, but my right hon. Friend has decided not to pursue negotiations to that end. The last part of the Question does not arise.
  Sir F. Sanderson: Is it not a fact that this company under its present management has achieved outstandingly successful production results On a highly-specialised weapon, at a time when it was most needed?
  Mr. Lennox - Boyd:The financial negotiations certainly caused a good deal of difficulty, but from the, production
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  angle we are certainly satisfied with the gun we have got.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall:Has not the company agreed to the purchase of these assets, and would not the purchase be in line with the report of the Public Accounts Committee?
  Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Certain suggestions were made to the company some time ago, for the acquisition of the assets, but they proved unacceptable to the company.

  SERVICE PERSONNEL (TELEGRAMS TO RELATIVES)
  Major Sir Jocelyn Lucasasked the Postmaster-General if he will arrange that telegrams announcing the safety or otherwise of service personnel, including prisoners of war, shall be repeated or otherwise checked, in view of the distress caused by messages arriving with a completely contrary meaning.
  The Postmaster - General (Captain Crookshank): Telegraph operators are instructed and trained to take great care to ensure accuracy in the transmission of telegrams, and certain checks are made on all the messages, but I am afraid that Owing to human fallibility it is not possible to eliminate completely the risk of error. I am aware of the case which my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind, and I should like to express my sympathy with the parents in the distress which they suffered.
  Sir J. Lucas: While thanking my right hon. and gallant Friend for his reply, may I ask him if he is aware that in this case the local post office spread throughout an entire village and in local factories news which was erroneous? Are officials not supposed to keep these things secret?
  Captain Crookshank: I have no evidence of that, but if my hon. and gallant Friend will give me details about such errors I will certainly look into the matter.

  ROYAL NAVY

    Royal Marines (Voluntary Allotments)
    Mr. Walter Edwardsasked the First Lord of the Admiralty for what time after he is reported missing is a voluntary allotment paid to the parents of a Royal Marine.
    The First Lard of the Admiralty (Mr. A. V. Alexander): An allotment which is in issue to a parent at the time a Royal Marine other rank is reported-missing is normally paid for a period of 26 weeks. If death is reported or presumed during the last nine weeks of this period, however, payment ceases from the time of notification of death, or presumption of death.
    Mr. Edwards: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is most unjust, until a man is reported presumed killed, for the voluntary allotment to be stopped at all; and will he go into the question of the continuation of the allotment Until the casualty is announced to parents and allow for a provisional period afterwards?
    Mr. Alexander: I think that question applies to all the Services and' ought to be addressed to the Minister of Pensions.

    Reserve Officers (Permanent Commissions)
    Lieut.-Commander Hutchisonasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has in view the institution of a scheme whereby Reserve officers may transfer to permanent commissions in the Royal Navy.
    Mr. Alexander: Yes, Sir. An Admiralty Fleet Order has recently been issued inviting Reserve executive and Air Branch officers to apply for transfer to permanent executive commissions in the Royal Navy. The number of permanent commissions granted at this stage of the war will, however, necessarily be limited, since total requirements for permanent officers will depend upon more precise estimates of the size and composition of the post-war Navy than are at present possible.

  GIBRALTAR (REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE)
  Mr. Hugh Lawsonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) what is the present rate of Income Tax in the Colony of Gibraltar; what it was in 1939; and what was the revenue from this source during the year 1939;
  (2) what was the expenditure in the Colony of Gibraltar during the year 1939 on old age pensions, elementary education and other social services;
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  (3) how any persons resident in the Colony of Gibraltar in the year 1939 had incomes of £25,000 a year or over.
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Colonel Oliver Stanley): There is no Income Tax in Gibraltar and statistics regarding private incomes are not therefore available. Elementary education in Gibraltar was in 1939 almost entirely in the hands of Church schools, and Government expenditure took the form of grants-in-aid to these schools. It amounted in 1939 to £12,243. Expenditure on other social services amounted to £23,414. There is no system of old age pensions in Gibraltar. Proposals for postwar reconstruction in Gibraltar which include much extended education and medical facilities as well as provision for old age and disablement are now under consideration. In order to assist in financing these developments an Income Tax applicable to all except persons on low rate of income will be introduced in Gibraltar as soon as possible.

  MALAYAN RUBBER COMPANIES (WAR DAMAGE COMPENSATION)
  Mr. Hewlettasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what approach has been made for Government financial assistance in any form by Malayan rubber companies for compensation for losses suffered and for rehabilitation of Malayan rubber estates resulting from Japanese occupation.
  Colonel Stanley: The general question of compensation for war damage sustained in the Far Eastern territories was raised in 1942 by a Committee representing Far Eastern commercial interests in the United Kingdom generally, including the rubber trade. The correspondence which passed between the committee and the Colonial Office was published in the Press at the time, and I am sending my hon. Friend a copy.
  Mr. Hewlett: While thanking my right and gallant Friend for that reply, may I ask the Government to make an exhaustive inquiry into the large amount of money expended in London office expenses and directors' fees by these Malayan rubber companies, the directors having nothing to direct at the present time?
  Colonel Stanley: That would seem, in the first place, to call for an inquiry by the shareholders.
  Sir Richard Acland: Could they not he called up for essential service?

  SIERRA LEONE (WATER SUPPLY, FREETOWN)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware of acute water shortage in Freetown during February and March each year; and what steps are being taken to secure an adequate supply throughout that period.
  Colonel Stanley: I am aware that the water supply in Freetown has to be restricted during the end of each dry season. The steps that have been taken to improve the position include the construction of new reservoirs and the reopening of wells, and the Government are examining a project for the construction of a further storage reservoir with a substantially greater capacity than is available at present.
  Mr. Sorensen: May I take it that, if that is carried out, water will then be available, especially during the important months of February and March?
  Colony Stanley: That should solve the problem. When I was out there in the autumn, they had run into technical difficulties which were holding them up, but I have asked for a report up to date.

  UGANDA (AFRICAN REPRESENTATION)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what are the Government's intentions regarding representation of Africans on the Uganda Legislative Council; and whether any plans are in view to speed this development.
  Colonel Stanley: Buganda, the largest of the native administrations, has its own native ruler, native Parliament and administration. The remainder of the African administrations are on similar though less advanced lines. I hope that, when the time is appropriate, Africans will be represented in the Legislative Council, but I do not wish this to be introduced at the expense of the natural development of existing native assemblies.
  Mr. Sorensen: While appreciating the reply, may I ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman whether he can give any indication when Africans will be appointed to the Legislative Council, or does he feel that as yet they are not really able to fill such positions?
  Colonel Stanley: It is not that so much, but my impression when out there was that, in the peculiar circumstances of Uganda, they are far more interested in the native Parliament than in the Legislative-Council.
  Mr. Riley: Does not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman think it very desirable that they should be represented on the Legislative Council as well?
  Colonel Stanley: I have answered that question.

  MAURITIUS (PRISON SENTENCE)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the circumstances that have led to the imprisonment of Binoondyal in Mauritius.
  Colonel Stanley: Bissoondoyal was convicted in a Magistrates' Court in March of holding public meetings in contravention of the regulations on that subject and was fined and given time to pay. As he failed to pay the fine a warrant was issued for his arrest in May in the ordinary course of justice and he was sent to prison. I have no power to review the proceedings of Courts of Justice in Mauritius or in other Dependencies, but it was open to Bissoondoyal to appeal against his sentence to a higher court if he desired to do so.

  WEST INDIES

    Jamaica Welfare, Limited
    Mr. Thomas Fraserasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the nature of the activities of Jamaica Welfare, Limited; what Government support it is receiving; whether organisations of a similar character now exist in other West Indian Colonies; and whether they are also being Government assisted.
    Colonel Stanley: The activities of Jamaica Welfare, Limited, and the grants sanctioned under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act, I940, are shown in the latest Return of Schemes made

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    under that Act (Command 6532) of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy. Organisations of a similar character exist in Barbados and Trinidad. No grant is at present made to these two Organisations under the 1940 Act, but I understand that an application for a grant is likely to be received in respect of Barbados Welfare, Limited. So far as I am aware, no financial support from the Colonial Governments is at present given to any of these Organisations by the Jamaica, Barbados, of Trinidad Governments.
    Dr. Morgan: Is not the Jamaica Welfare, Limited, totally in the hands of the United Fruit Company?
    Colonel Stanley: Not at all.

    Trinidad (Sugar Industry)
    Mr. Fraserasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the extent of the subsidy now being paid to the sugar industry in Trinidad; and' what provisions regarding wages, working conditions and the welfare of the workers generally, are attached as a condition of the subsidy.
    Colonel Stanley: As the reply is necessarily long I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circular it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:
    After examination by a local Committee on the sugar industry, the Government of Trinidad decided to assist the industry by making a grant from local revenues of 800,000 dollars for three years ending in 1946, this being the sum required to meet interest and depreciation charges. It has also been, agreed that these two items should be removed from the formula for the calculation of the price to be paid for cane sugar and that all growers should be guaranteed that this price should not fall below 5.50 dollars per ton. The Colonial Government has, however, reserved the right to impose on all cane a eess not exceeding 50 per cent. of any increase over 5.50 dollars, the proceeds of which would be offset against the grant of 800,000 dollars. As a condition of this assistance, it is intended that the industry itself should assume the responsibility for encouraging the return of workers by adopting the principle of payment of an output bonus to those who complete a
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    specified number of tasks within a given period, as recommended by the local committee. In addition, His Majesty's Government have agreed to contribute towards the cost of rehabilitating the industry by meeting the cost, amounting to approximately 400,000 dollars, of continuing during 1944 the replanting bonus of 40 dollars an acre which was paid during 1943. No conditions were attached to this payment, a large part of which of course goes to small independent peasant growers.

    Bahamas (Secret Ballot and Income Tax)
    Mr. Fraserasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what progress he can report regarding the introduction of the secret ballot and the position of Income Tax in the Bahamas.
    Colonel Stanley: Legislation providing for the introduction of the secret ballot throughout the Colony will shortly be introduced into the Bahamas Legislature. No Income Tax is in force in the Bahamas.

  RAILWAYS

    Employees Pay Dockets
    Sir Reginald Clarryasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he is aware that the railway companies do not give their employees detailed pay dockets with their weekly wages, thus causing considerable dissatisfaction as it is difficult to keep an accurate check on wages, having regard to deductions for superannuation schemes, Pay-as-you-Earn, Income Tax, etc., and fluctuations due to varying rates and periods of overtime; and whether he is prepared to instruct railway companies to adopt this practice in accordance with the representations made to them by the Newport branch of the National Union of Ralwaymen.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker): With relatively few exceptions, railway staff who are paid by the week receive a pay check, which shows the amount of money due. These checks do not show the deductions which are made, but anyone who so desires can obtain full information about them from the pay clerk. My hon. Friend's proposal would entail a heavy additional burden of work upon

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    the railway clerical staff. For that reason, I think I would not be justified in giving the instructions he suggests.
    Mr. Robbie: May I ask my hon. Friend whether he has received any communication from the general secretary of the trade union referred to?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I believe that that is so, but after discussion we reluctantly decided it could not be done.
    Mr. Rhys Davies: Will the hon. Member be good enough to inquire, whether the failure of an employer to give these details is not a violation, in part, of the Truck Act?
    Noel-Baker: I will inquire.
    Sir R. Clarry: Will the Parliamentary Secretary tell the House why railway companies should not conform to the practice usually adopted by large organisations?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I am afraid that I cannot go into the, history of this matter, but, however desirable the system may be, we could not at present go into it because of the difficulty of man-power alone.

    Train Cancellations
    Mr. Rhys Daviesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he is aware of the chaos caused on certain railway stations consequent upon the failure of the companies to give adequate notice of the cancellation of trains; and will he take steps to avoid this.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I do not accept my hon. Friend's assertion that there has been chaos at railway stations. Warnings have been issued on several occasions that further reductions in the number of passenger trains would be required, and the public were specifically informed on 16th May that trains would be cancelled without notice. For security reasons, the Government have not allowed the railway companies to- publish the details of the cancellations that are made. Lists of the trains that will not run are, however, posted at the stations.
    Mr. Davies: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that women with' children in arms have had to sit at the stations for four
    1344
    and five hours waiting for trains and cannot something be done to avoid tat sort of thing?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I think that things are a great deal better, and that the public have accepted with great fortitude the hardships which we have had to impose. I would like to assure my hon. Friend that we did give very full consideration to the inconvenience that we knew we should be imposing on the public, but we, nevertheless, decided that our plans were necessary and right.
    Mr. Wootton-Davies: May I ask the hon. Gentleman why he did not adopt the suggestion made by the railway companies that they should keep their winter time-tables in being, as that would not have given, away any information and would have saved bitter disappointment later?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: There were the strongest possible reasons, as I shall be glad to explain to my hon. Friend if he will see me behind Mr. Speaker's Chair.

    Travel Permits
    Mr. Higgs asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport if he will introduce a permit system for train travellers forthwith.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: As I have said in answer to previous Questions, the introduction of a permit system for railway passengers would require the creation of a huge organisation, and an increase of staff out of all proportion to the advantages which would be obtained. For that reason, I regret that I cannot adopt my hon. Friend's proposal.
    Mr. Higgs: Is the Minister aware of the large amount of unnecessary travel which is taking place, and is he not going to take any steps at all to reduce it? Is-he further aware t other commodities far more difficult to ration than travel have beep rationed; and is not his Ministry as capable as other Ministries?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I think that very few people now travel for fun. No one has yet succeeded in devising a permit system for railway travel. If my hon. Friend can do so, I should be very glad to consider it.
    Mr. McGovern: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a permit system would add

    1345
    greatly to the duties of Members of Parliament, who would be inundated with requests?
    Sir H. Williams: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one of my constituents was told to go all the way back to his unit in order to be demobilised? Was his journey really necessary?
    Mr. Higgs: In view of the Minister's last reply, will he grant me an interview?

    Members of Parliament (Facilities)
    Dr. Russell Thomasasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport if he is aware that Members of Parliament travelling between their constituencies and the Palace of Westminster are finding difficulty in securing accommodation in trains; and what steps he is taking to see that Members are given travel facilities.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I am, of course, regretfully aware that the cancellation of trains without notice has caused inconvenience to many passengers, but I am glad to assure my hon. Friend that I have so far received no other complaints that hon. Members are finding undue difficulty in travelling between Westminster and their constituencies. As I have said in answer to the last question, it is not practicable to introduce a general permit system, but my Noble Friend has arranged that some seats shall be reserved on one train every day in each direction on a few routes where overcrowding is likely to be greatest. The seats will be available at terminal stations only; they will be given to persons travelling on urgent national business which cannot be postponed. They will be allocated in accordance with the priority scheme which already applies to berths in sleeping cars.
    Dr. Thomas: May I ask my hon. Friend whether he is aware that in long-distance trains, from my experience, whole first-class carriages are locked and reserved and marked "Not for public use"? Would he say for Whom this comfortable method of travel in these hard times is reserved, while Members of Parliament and members of the public have to travel under most trying conditions?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: There are very strict rules about the locking of compartments and reservations. If my hon. Friend will send me details of any case, I will look into it.
    Mr. Silverman: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that those very strict rules about the locking of compartments are -consistently ignored by the railway companies everywhere in the country?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: No, Sir. I have had certain examples brought to my notice and I have looked into every one. There have been occasional infractions but they are very rare.
    Mr. Silverman: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that station-masters inform inquirers that they are requested by the railway executive to lock first-class compartments on corridor trains in certain circumstances?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Perhaps my hon. Friend will give me details.
    Sir Herbert Holdsworth: Arising out of the original reply, would it not be possible for Members of Parliament to reserve seats? What it means at the present time is that one has to wait very often an hour and a half at the termini, and that could be saved by reservation.
    Mr. Noel-BakerI recognise the great difficulties, and I hope the proposal for reserved seats on some routes will perhaps help hon. Members. I am afraid a general system of reservation for hon. Members on any train would be impossible to work. I shall be glad to discuss it with my hon. Friend.

    Non-smoking Compartments
    Mr. Gledhillasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport if he will instruct the Railway Executive Committee to have those compartments where smoking is prohibited more prominently labelled; and the railway staffs to insist on this by-law being rigidly observed.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: The labels now used in non-smoking compartments were only adopted after experiments had been made with various other types. I think they have proved reasonably effective, but I should be glad to consider any proposals which my hon. Friend may care to make. My hon. Friend will recognise that the railway staff are now working in difficult conditions. I hope he will agree that they do their best to ensure that passengers who travel in non-smoking compartments do not smoke.
    Mr. Gledhill: Would my hon. Friend give due publicity to that answer in order to protect those passengers who, having a disability such as train sickness, cannot travel in a smoky atmosphere?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I will do my best and I hope my hon. Friend will do his best.

    Telephone Staffs
    Mr. Dribergasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport if he has made arrangements for temporary increases of staff to deal with telephone inquiries at railway stations in the present situation.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: As I said yesterday in answer to a written Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Eye (Mr. Granville), I regret that it is not practicable at present to provide additional staff or telephone facilities to deal with inquiries at railway stations.

  COMPANY MEETINGS (POSTPONEMENT)
  Mr. John Dugdaleasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport how many firms have consulted his Department as to the advisability of postponing their annual general meetings due to be held during May, June and July; in how many cases have they been advised to postpone them; and in how many has the Ministry's advice been accepted.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: So far as I am aware, no firms have asked for my Ministry's advice about the postponement of their annual general meetings.
  Mr. Dugdale: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that large numbers of companies have in fact held such meetings during the past few weeks, quite regardless of any consideration as to whether they might be interfering with transport for the Second Front?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I should be very glad to have from my hon. Friend details which involve irregular travel, but no doubt he will remember that some companies are under legal obligation to hold their annual general meeting at a certain time.

  1939–43 STAR
  Mr. Molsonasked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to state the Government's decisions regarding the 1939–43 Star.
  The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): No, Sir. Active consideration is being given to the whole subject, but His Majesty's Government are not yet in a position to make an announcement.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there have been no general awards to men who landed in Italy on 3rd September, 1943, and who have fought hard ever since? Will he commemorate the fall of Rome by giving early consideration to this matter and an early decision?
  Mr. Attlee: That question will be brought to the notice of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. My Noble Friend will realise that the Prime Minister has been very much occupied recently.
  Colonel Greenwell: May I ask the Deputy Prime Minister if his reply to the original Question is to be taken as meaning that the position of men serving in A.A. Command is also under consideration for this decoration?
  Mr. Attlee: I think "the whole subject" will cover that.

  EQUAL PAY
  Miss Wardasked the Prime Minister how the figure of £42,000,000 as the sum required to finance equal pay for equal work was arrived at.
  Mr. Attlee: The figure of £42,000,000 represents the estimated additional annual cost at the present time of giving equal pay to women teachers, civil servants, and members of other Services, for which the Exchequer is financially responsible in whole or in part. The estimate is a very rough one based upon such information as is readily available.
  Miss Ward: May I ask whether the figure of £42,000,000 includes equal pay for women in the Services?
  Mr. Attlee: I think perhaps if the hon. Lady will study my answer she will see what it includes.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Wrapping Paper
    Mr. Evelyn Walkdenasked the Minister of Production if he is aware that because of the shortage of cap paper, imitation parchment and wrapping paper, many butchers and purveyors of cooked meats are compelled to resort to the practice of wrapping meat in used or unsold newspapers, which is unhygienic and is resented by most housewives; and if he will consider a more generous increase in the supply of wrapping paper for the meat and provision branches of the food trades.
    The Minister of Production (Mr. Lyttelton): The present allocation of wrapping paper for the food trades is the maximum which can be made available, having regard to the paper position generally, and I can hold out no hope of an early increase. Supplies for this purpose are carefully planned in consultation with the Ministry of Food, to ensure that hygienic considerations are not overlooked. The food trades will have benefited from an increase in the supply of paper bags a short time ago.
    Mr. Walkden: Is the Minister aware that grave inconvenience is being caused in the food trades by the shortage of paper? Does he not think it is wholly distasteful to receive one's bacon ration or a pork chop stamped with "Jane," or some other comic cartoon; and is it not the case that many butchers are actually using newspapers to-day?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I am very much concerned about hygienic conditions but I am afraid we shall have to put up with the inconvenience.
    Dr. Morgan: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware that many of the oils used in printing have cancer-carrying properties? Is it not dangerous for food to be wrapped in newspapers?
    Dr. Russell Thomas: Rubbish.
    Mr. Lyttelton: The hon. Member is rather out of my depth.

    Jam Stocks
    Mr. Lewisasked the Minister of Food how many complaints he has received from traders of difficulty in disposing of any of the jam made in this country last year.
    The Minister of Food (Colonel Llewellin): I received complaints early this year that, owing to reduced demand for the less popular varieties, many traders held bigger stocks of jam than usual. No such complaints have been received for the past two months.
    Mr. Lewis: Has the right hon. and gallant Gentleman considered the desirability of releasing rather more soft fruit for consumption as fresh fruit in these circumstances?
    Colonel Llewellin: I am afraid we shall be very short of fruit this year.
    Colonel Greenwell: Would the right hon. and gallant Gentleman consider reducing the turnip content in jam?

    Flour and Sugar Sacks
    Mr. Rhys Daviesasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the fact that only older men are left to undertake the work and the physical strain involved on them, he will take steps to reduce the flour and sugar sack now in use from two hundredweight to one hundredweight.
    Colonel Llewellin: I should like to see the size of flour and sugar sacks reduced, but unfortunately packing materials, including jute, are still in short supply, and that and other factors make the reduction impossible at this time.
    Mr. Davies: May I ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman whether it is not possible, when new sacks are manufactured, that they shall be reduced in accordance with the suggestion contained in my Question?
    Colonel Llewellin: Of course, not all those sacks do originate in this country, and that is one of the problems.

    Tartaric Acid (Order)
    Mr. Gledhillasked the Minister of Food why, in paragraph 6 of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Food (Tartaric Acid) Order (S.R. & O., No. 539, of 1944), it is provided that the production of a document purporting to be a certificate signed by the Government chemist shall be evidence unless the court or other party asks for the party concerned to be called as a witness; and whether he will amend the Order so that parties involved can accept the document in advance.
    Colonel Llewellin: The provision to which my hon. Friend refers was approved by Parliament in the Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Act, 1926 (Section 22) and in the Food and Drugs Act, 1938 (Section 81). I should not be justified in amending the Order in the way my hon. Friend suggests as this would prevent a court, exercising criminal jurisdiction, from requiring the attendance of the person making the analysis in cases where, despite the agreement of prosecution and defence, the court might consider this to be necessary.

    Harvest Workers (Rations)
    Viscount Suirdaleasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the long hours for which they work and the heavy work involved he will consider granting extra rations to agricultural workers during the period of the harvest; and whether, in cases where farm employees have not the accommodation for pig keeping, he will make arrangements to permit farmers to sell a fat pig to their regular employees for their consumption, in a manner similar to that allowed through the channels of a pig club.
    Colonel Llewellin: Farmers may already obtain supplies of rationed food for the provision of meals for agricultural workers during harvest. Such workers are also eligible for the special ration of cheese at all times. In reply to the second part of the Question I hope to make an announcement on this subject in the near future.

    New Ration Books (Collection)
    Captain Pluggeasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the fact that the hours 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. for the collection of new ration books are quite inadequate for people who work all day, possibly some way from the district in which they live, he will extend these hours into the evening and thus avoid a Saturday afternoon rush.
    Colonel Limellin: Food executive officers in each locality have full discretion to arrange for offices to be open during the hours necessary to meet local needs. For example, those in Chatham are open from 9.30 a.m. to 8 p.m. on Mondays to Fridays and from 9.30 a.m. to 4.30 p.m. on Saturdays.

    Fruit
    Captain Pluggeasked the Minister of Food whether he will consider releas-
    1352
    ing more stocks of prunes to the shops, in view of the fact that since the final reduction in the price of rhubarb it is no longer for sale at the shops and the public is therefore without fruit of any kind.
    Colonel Llewellin: I cannot accept the statements contained in the last part of my hon. and gallant Friend's Question, but a substantial quantity of prunes will be distributed in the near future.
    Captain Plugge: Is the Minister aware that the Weald of Kent and the Vale of Evesham expect a very good crop and ought not supplies to be placed fully at the disposal of the purchasing public?
    Colonel Llewellin: I have already decided that, in regard to the Kent strawberry crop, the Ministry will not pre-empt any of it for jam.

    Coffee Stocks
    Mr. Hewlettasked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the great increase of the consumption in the U.S.A. of Latin-American coffee which will leave little for export to Europe, adequate supplies of this commodity for ourselves and for the activities of U.N.R.R.A. can be regarded as assured.
    Colonel Llewellin: Stocks of coffee in the United Kingdom are adequate for a considerable period at present rates of consumption. The world supply position is such that sufficient supplies should be available for relief.

    Subsidies (Cost)
    Mr. Wootton-Daviesasked the Minister of Food the principal foodstuffs now subsidised and the annual amount of subsidy in each case.
    Colonel Llewellin: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on 2nd February. The estimated current rates of subsidy show increases in respect of eggs, sugar and milk totalling approximately £15,000,000, thus bringing the total estimated cost of subsidies then given up to £221,000,000.

  ROAD ACCIDENTS
  Captain Pluggeasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport what proportion of the 10,497 road casualties in April were directly attributable to war conditions of traffic.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I regret that it is not possible to obtain information about the number of road accidents in which war conditions may have been the principal cause.
  Captain Plugge: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that road casualties would be much reduced if road congestion were relieved by the petrol tax being substituted for the horse-power tax on motor vehicles? Will he make representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this matter?
  Mr. Graham White: Can my hon. Friend give any explanation of this abnormal rise in road accidents?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: In part, it is due to the very heavy traffic resulting from operations which have now begun. Beyond that, I have no explanation.
  Sir William Davison: Can the hon. Gentleman not take action to make people more careful in stepping off pavements?

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY (MR. S. F. STEWARD)
  Sir H. Williamsasked the Minister of Supply whether Mr. S. F. Steward, the director of industrial electrical equipment, is resigning that position in view of his appointment as a director of Messrs. E. R. and F. Turner, Limited.
  The Minister of Supply (Sir Andrew Duncan): No, Sir. Mr. Steward's connection with Messrs. E. R. and F. Turner, Limited, is not incompatible with his official duties, and I am glad to say that we shall continue to have his full-time services.

  MINISTRY OF INFORMATION

    Book, "Your M.P."
    Mr. Beverley Baxterasked the Minister of Information if he is aware that a recent Gollancz production called "Your M.P.," written by an author who served a prison sentence for seditious activities, contains material which might disturb our relations with Russia; and if the book has been banned for export.
    The Minister of Information (Mr. Brendan Bracken): I know nothing of the record of the author of "Your M.P." This title is obviously inaccurate as the contents contain only a very few particu-
    1354
    lars about only half the number of hon. Members in this House. The quality of this book is well displayed by its venomous attack on the former Member for Hitchin who, with the greatest gallantry, gave his life for his country. The elaborate malice of "Your M.P." is unlikely to attract readers overseas. And so, even if I believed in banning the export of books, there would be no point in my doing so in this case.
    Mr. Baxter: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his spirited reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that many books of high scientific and literary value cannot be published at the present time owing to the shortage of paper? Is it not monstrous that this muck-raking publisher should waste many tons of paper on such scurrilous publications?
    Mr. Silverman: On a point of Order. Is it in Order, Mr. Speaker, to describe a record of Members of this House as "muck-raking"?
    Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of Order. I think it is a matter of taste.
    Earl Winterton: Would it be possible to give the House and the world the name of this ex-criminal who is such a "buddy" of the "News Chronicle"?
    Mr. Bracken: I have already told the House that I know nothing about his name, so it would be unfair for me to make any speculation. With regard to the Question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter) I think it is a pity that a publisher who has a great stock of paper should use it to try to lower the reputation of Members of the House of Commons at a time when we are engaged in one of the most vital military operations in history.
    Mr. Shinwell: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether it is part of his office to use that Box for the purpose of criticising publishers, or any particular publisher[HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"]—and whether it is necessary to make a fuss about this? Why should hon. Members be so sensitive? Will the Minister recall the virulent attacks made on members of the Labour Party in the past?
    Mr. Bracken: If I may say so, my hon. Friend is in too much of a hurry to become an elder statesman. It is my duty to answer any question put to me in this House.
    Mr. Shinwell: On a point of Order. Am I to understand, Mr. Speaker, that when a perfectly inoffensive question, a perfectly orderly and consequential question, is addressed to a right hon. Gentleman he is entitled, in his reply, to attack an hon. Member? Further, may I ask, will I be permitted, in due course of a Question accepted by the Chair, to attack the right hon. Gentleman?
    Mr. Speaker: I do not think there is any point of Order there; we all have to take the rough with the smooth.
    Mr. Gallacher: In view of the fact that a statement has been made in the Question about the writer of this book being imprisoned for sedition, surely it is permissible to state that this is not correct? [HON. MEMBERS: "Who is the man?"] This man was not found guilty of sedition. He was told that if he would leave the Communist Party he would go free. He refused, and got six months, not for sedition, but for refusing to leave the Communist Party.

    Members of Parliament (Fees)
    Commander Sir Archibald Southbyasked the Minister of Information how many Members of Parliament are drawing money payments from his Ministry for services rendered for work done; and whether such Members have been granted immunity under any Act of Parliament.
    Mr. Bracken: I find that since the establishment of the Ministry, fees have been paid to 13 Members of Parliament who have supplied feature articles, scripts and such like for publication. The Ministry has been advised that in such cases the question of disqualification under the House of Commons Disqualification Act does not arise.
    Sir A. Southby: Could my right hon. Friend say whether the articles in Service papers are arranged for by his Ministry and, if so, who selects the writers? Are any Members of Parliament among them, are they paid and, if so, how much?
    Mr. Bracken: I think the Service papers get their material from the War Office, but I cannot answer my hon. and gallant Friend's question because I have no details.
    Sir A. Southby: Have Members of Parliament in fact been paid by my right
    1356
    hon. Friend's Department for writing articles for papers?
    Mr. Bracken: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Granville: In view of the fact that we could not hear the original answer, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman said he Intended to publish the names in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
    Mr. Bracken: I am quite willing.
    Mr. George Griffiths: Has the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Baxter) received any payment from this source?
    Sir H. Williams: Surely an hon. Member who writes for this Ministry has a contract with the Ministry, and accordingly the Disqualification Act must apply.
    Mr. Bracken: I have been fortified by legal advice which I have read to the House.
    Mr. Shinwell: Shall we be permitted to inquire into the sources of income of hon. Members opposite?

    Yugoslavia (British Broadcasts)
    Flight-Lieutenant Teelingasked the Minister of Information what were the sources of information of the B.B.C. for their broadcasts in Serbian to Yugoslavia, on 24th May, that King Peter had accepted the resignation of M. Puric and his Cabinet which includes General Mihailovitch when this had not taken place.
    Mr. Bracken: Before my hon. and gallant Friend takes it upon himself to suggest that the B.B.C. have broadcast misleading information, he would do well to follow more closely the proceedings of this House. Had he done so on 24th May, he would have heard my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister giving the information which he now queries.
    Flight-Lieutenant Teeing: In view of the fact that most Members do not seem to know what is being broadcast, would my right hon. Friend have placed in the Library copies in English of what has been sent out since 1st May?
    Mr. Bracken: My hon. and gallant Friend has asked me a Question. He has attacked the B.B.C. for broadcasting a statement made by the Prime Minister in the House. If he cannot follow the Prime Minister's statements in the House

    1357
    I will send him an extra copy of HANSARD. His other question has nothing to do with that on the Paper.
    Mr. Shinwell: Cannot we keep the right hon. Gentleman in Order?

  HOUSE OF COMMONS REFRESHMENT DEPARTMENT (PRICES)
  Dr. Russell Thomasasked the hon. Member for Dulwich, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, if he is now in a position to say when he intends to reduce the prices of food in the catering establishments of the House.
  Mr. Bracewell Smith: The prices of meals in the Refreshment Department are based on the prevailing cost of food, renewal of equipment and present rate of wages. These factors prevent any immediate reduction in the present charges, which are practically the same as in 1938.
  Dr. Thomas: In spite of the hon. Member's reply and in view of the fact that overhead charges in the House are not comparable with those of restaurants outside, will the hon. Gentleman say whether he intends to continue to run the catering establishment on a commercial basis by exploring the pockets of Members, for a few days a week, for a limited number of weeks in the year, in order to pay the servants a pittance for the whole year?

  HOUSING

    Accommodation, Liverpool
    Mr. Kirbyasked the Minister of Health what progress has been made in Liverpool with the requisitioning of empty shops and other premises for the housing of bombed-out families since he issued his circular to local authorities authorising such requisitioning, repair and adaptation.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Horsbrugh): At 31st May, 1944, the Liverpool Corporation held under requisition 1,731 premises for homeless persons and 121 premises for families inadequately housed. Of these, 19 were shop premises which have been converted to living accommodation.
    Mr. Kirby: Does the hon. Lady think that is sufficient, in view of the fact that there are some 30,000 families in billets?
    Miss Horsbrugh: I think that is a matter for the Liverpool Corporation. They have the power in suitable cases.
    Mr. Kirby: Is it possible for the Ministry of Health to bring pressure to bear on local authorities if they are not doing what they ought to do?
    Miss Horsbrugh: Yes, but I am not aware that the Liverpool Corporation is not doing what it ought to do. If the hon. Member has any partcular cases where he knows of buildings which could be requisitioned, perhaps he will let me have the addresses.
    Mr. Kirbyasked the Minister of Health how many houses in Liverpool damaged by enemy action have been repaired, made habitable and occupied during the past 12 months, or other period during which statistics have been kept.
    Miss Horsbrugh: For security reasons I am sending my hon. Friend this information by letter.

    Prefabricated Houses
    Mr. Bossomasked the Minister of Health in the respects where the Government's proposed factory-built bungalow does not conform with his Department's model by-laws or the seven building Acts governing our large cities, what action he is taking to enable these and similar houses built by other than Government agencies to come within the law.
    Miss Horsbrugh: This is one of the many matters which are under consideration in connection with emergency factory-made houses.
    Mr. Bossom: Is not the absence of any positive action retarding the development of an important contribution to post-war building?
    Miss Horsbrugh: The Question refers to emergency factory-built houses. We are not stopping anything that has to do with emergency factory-built houses. Anyone can go ahead.
    Mr. Bossom: Will the hon. Lady answer the latter part of the Question?

  WOUNDED SOLDIERS (POSTAL SERVICE)
  Mr. John Dugdaleasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the introduction of a short cut mail

  1359
  service for relatives of men who have been wounded similar to that recently started in Canada.
  The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Arthur Henderson): Commanding officers of hospitals have instructions to forward to a soldier's next-of-kin, within 24 hours of admission, a postcard giving his hospital address and his state of health. To avoid interruption in postal communications, the hospital authorities send a similar card to the soldier's unit to enable the rapid redirection of any mail received. These cards are given priority of treatment in the Army Postal Service and despatched by the fastest available means, generally by air. The adoption of the Canadian system has been considered but I am advised that the present procedure is as satisfactory and expeditious as can be devised in the difficult conditions which exist in a theatre of active operations.

  POST-WAR BUSINESS PREMISES (CONSTRUCTION)
  Mr. Bossomasked the Minister of Health whether industrialists and owners of large commercial properties can instruct their architects to proceed with the drawings for their post-war premises, basing the designs upon modern systems of construction and employing new materials, which were not contemplated in existing building Acts or model by-laws; and, if not, what provision he is making to enable this to be done at the earliest possible date.
  Miss Horsbrugh: Yes, Sir.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm the construction by the Herts and Essex Waterworks Company Ltd. of certain existing waterworks; to empower the Company to construct a new waterwork and raise additional money; to alter and re-define the limits of supply of the Company; and for other purposes."—[Herts and Essex Water Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to provide for the vesting of part of the Wisbech Canal in the Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses of the Borough of Wisbech, and to enable them to pipe the water of part
1360
thereof and fill in the same and lay out other part thereof as a pleasure ground; to confer upon the Corporation powers of control over so much of the remainder of the said canal as is in or adjoining the borough; to authorise the compulsory purchase of lands by the Corporation; to make further provision with regard to the health, local government and improvement of the borough; and for other purposes."—[Wisbech Corporation Bill [Lords].

HERTS AND ESSEX WATER BILL [Lords]
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
WISBECH CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [9TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS in the Chair]
  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1944

  LOCATION OF INDUSTRY
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a further sum, not exceeding £40, be granted to His Majesty, towards defraying the charges for the following services connected with the Location of Industry, for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1945, namely:

  Class VI, Vote 1, Board of Trade

  £10

  Class V, Vote 8, Ministry of Labour and National Service

  £10

  Class I, Vote 24, Ministry of Town and Country Planning

  £10

  Class I, Vote 25, Scottish Home Department

  £10

  £40"

  The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Dalton): We had a Debate on 8th December on the subject of the location of industry in connection with the Debate on the Address. That Debate was initiated by Amendments put on the Paper, it is interesting to note, by Conservative Members from Scotland, from the North-East coast and from South Wales. I replied on that occasion for the Government. I gave some indication of the Government's policy regarding the Development Areas, as they are now very generally and very properly called. I note the fact that Amendments were put down on that occasion by Conservative Members because that illustrates the fact that this is now an all-Party interest. It is no longer Members of the Labour Party only, as it tended to be in days gone by, who draw attention to the importance of this subject. [Interruption.] That is a historical fact which can be verified by reference to HANSARD. I welcome the fact that this is now an all-Party interest. [Interruption.] I was hoping to give the Debate a harmonious start. A fortnight ago or thereabouts the Government published a White Paper dealing with their employment policy. I hope it will not cause inharmonious cries if I say that this White Paper has been received with remarkable friendliness in the Press—I
  1372
  hope this will be allowed to pass as a matter of fact—ranging from the "Daily Herald" at one end to the "Daily Telegraph" at the other, with all intermediate shades of opinion echoing general approval for the Government's policy. That is very encouraging to those of us who had something to do with framing the policy in the White Paper. There is, I understand, very shortly to be a full Debate on the Employment White Paper and I hope that that Debate will extend over several days. Many of my colleagues will naturally take part, in so far as their departmental interests are concerned. But I think it is convenient—and I welcome the opportunity of saying something to-day—to gather opinion from various sections of the Committee on the particular question of the location of industry.
  May I begin by clearing up with you, Mr. Williams, a question of procedure? We are on a Supply Day, and references to new legislation will be out of Order. On the other hand, although later on we shall no doubt need new legislation in order to implement a number of matters mentioned in Chapter III of the White Paper, "The balanced distribution of industry and, labour", yet I submit that there is no need for that reason to bar discussion on any of these proposals, because all the things proposed to be done can be done now under war-time powers and emergency legislation of one kind or another. Later on, when war-time powers will tend to lapse, it will be necessary to replace some of them by permanent legislation. As we now have the power to do these things, I submit that it is in Order for the Debate to range over the full field of this chapter in the White Paper without any limitation being imposed under the Rule governing the discussion of new legislation.
  The Deputy-Chairman (Mr. Charles Williams): This is obviously rather a difficult matter to decide now, and I think that I had better leave it to the general sense of the Committee. If on a Committee day such as this we allow any Member to bring up any details of legislation which he may wish to propose, the Rule about discussing legislation will become useless. I suggest that we should to-day discuss the White Paper with reasonable width of view, but that we should not go too far into what may be done after the

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  war by legislation. Some things can be done now by means of Orders. They can be discussed, but I hope that we shall not have long statements on post-war legislation.
  Earl Winterton: While I entirely agree with your Ruling, may I point out the difficulty in which the Committee is placed and which I have pointed out before? It is a difficulty about which a Ruling from the Chair is really required. The Rule about discussing matters requiring legislation is now almost out of date because everything can be done under Defence Regulations. When the Rule was first introduced no provision was made for that. I submit that the Prime Minister or Mr. Speaker should come to a decision to have some alteration of the Rule for the purposes of the war in view of the fact that anything can be done under Regulations.
  The Deputy-Chairman: No one realises that more than I do, but this is obviously not the occasion for me to give a definite Ruling on that matter.
  Mr. Buchanan: The Minister says that the White Paper can be carried out by Defence Regulations, but I would remind him that any such action would have to be connected with war policy. The Government are not entitled to make general legislation under Defence Regulations, and the policy in the White Paper raises questions of general legislation. The proposals relating to the location of industry may include places like Jarrow, and they will require legislation in the future. We cannot discuss such legislation without the widest Ruling as to the scope of the Debate. I suggest that one way out of the difficulty will be for the Government to get their Supply Day and then to move the Adjournment of the House. Another way would be for the Government to get their Supply Day and then to move a Motion confirming the White Paper. Either of these ways would enable us to have a wide Debate. If we are confined to the Debate on Supply it will be artificially stifled.
  The Deputy-Chairman: I said a few minutes ago that it would seem to be wise to allow a reasonably wide discussion on the White Paper without tying ourselves down too closely to definite matters of legislation which will be bound to come on later. May I put it in this way?
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  Would it not be possible for Members to give their ideas on the White Paper as to how it might be worked out without committing themselves too much to details of legislation? I appreciate the difficulty, but I suggest that we can probably get through the Debate in a fairly wide way in that manner.
  Mr. J. J. Lawson: It might be useful for the Committee and you, Mr. Williams, to remember that this matter applies to the Barlow Report as well as to the White Paper, because some sections of the Barlow Report deal with proposals for legislation to which we cannot refer unless we have the widest discussion.
  Mr. Dalton: I made my appeal to you, Mr. Williams, with the object of getting a wide discussion. My whole purpose was to seek to ensure, by getting your view beforehand, that Members who desired to speak on matters relating to the location of industry section of the White Paper would not be unduly restricted. This is the section which I shall explain and defend on behalf of the Government. I think that we can let the Debate proceed freely, and if at any point difficulties of Order arise, you will, I am sure, keep an eye on us. I appreciate your desire that the Debate should move freely, and I think that hon. Members may be reassured in the light of what you have said. The general Debate on the White Paper is not to-day. This is a Debate on the location of industry, and any spokesman for the Government would desire to explain and secure the approval of the Committee for the proposals in the White Paper, and receive guidance, assistance and suggestions from the Committee.
  Mr. David Grenfell: Would it not suit the convenience of the Minister if he chose his own line in introducing the matter to the Committee without linking it up with any particular part of the White Paper or with the White Paper as a whole?
  Mr. Dalton: I have said that we are not concerned to-day with the whole of the White Paper. I propose to speak about that section which begins in Chapter III on page 10, "The Balanced, Distribution of Industry and Labour," and the proposals of the Government which

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  are set out in paragraphs 20–30. I propose to defend the proposals, for which I am jointly responsible with my colleagues. The principal proposals which t desire to submit to the Committee, and to get their views upon, are those for securing that the Special Areas, or the Distressed Areas as we called them before the war, shall in future be removed from the map, and that Development Areas, as I myself have christened them, are properly developed by industrial reinforcements and additional developments, and are duly diversified as regards their industrial composition, so that they are no longer left dependent, as they have been in the past, on one or two or a small number of industries, like coal, shipbuilding, iron and steel, and so on.
  The Government's view is that in order to achieve full employment in these areas, as well as in the rest of the country, it is necessary to proceed along three lines of approach. The first is to do whatever we can to assist the basic prosperity and the full employment afforded by those industries on which these areas particularly depend. I do not speak of that today, because that is not the location of industry, but anything we can do to assist the coal, the shipbuilding, the iron and steel and other industries to achieve full employment, each in its own field, will help us in this problem. In the second place it is clear that the general policy of the Government to maintain the purchasing power of the community will have beneficial effects throughout the country, including these areas which we are considering; but that is general financial policy and I am not speaking of that today.
  What I wish to direct attention to is the third line of attack, intended by the Government, and found in Paragraph 25 of the White Paper:
  "By so influencing the location of new enterprises as to diversify the industrial composition of areas which are particularly vulnerable to unemployment."
  That is the essence of the whole matter, and it is upon that and upon the measures designed to achieve it, that I suggest the Committee should focus their attention. In Paragraph 26 are set out a number of separate proposals, and I will briefly summarise them and comment upon them. Here I may perhaps make a rather obvious point. When we talk
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  about "the location of industry" unfortunately, for good or ill, most of our industry is located already. It is only in the field of the construction of new factories, or extensions to existing factories, that the Government can influence the location of industry at all. Existing buildings, until they either fall down or become obsolescent, must remain located where they are now. The power of influencing location is confined to new factories and extensions, and the Government in future will expect industrialists who have any important schemes in mind—I am not now talking of small extensions to factories, but of large extensions or the erection of new buildings—to let us know beforehand what they propose. I hasten to add that so far we have not been disappointed and that industrialists are accepting this new attitude of the Government. The Government will expect industrialists to come and discuss in a friendly way with them what they intend, and the Government will be able in many directions to offer advice, guidance and suggestions as to the future location of their industries.
  Sir Granville Gibson: Does not the White Paper go much farther than saying they expect industrialists to inform the Government when they intend to extend their factories? At the top of page 12 it says industrialists "will be required," and that means compelled.
  Mr. Dalton: Yes. The Government will expect them to do it, and, if they do not do it, the Government will take other measures. I wanted to put it diplomatically. Industrialists will in future be required to tell the Government what they intend to do and to discuss it with them. What is stated in the White Paper can be read by any hon. Member. In the future the Government are going to take permanent power to prohibit the establishment of a new factory in any district where they consider that serious disadvantage would arise from further industrial development there. That power we have now. We have it under two heads: in regard to small areas we have it under the town and country planning powers, and particularly under the Act of 1943. In addition we have powers through industrial building permits, and of those I shall speak later. No industrialist can build a factory to-day, or make

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  extensions, without getting an industrial building permit which is granted by the Ministry of Works on the advice of the Board of Trade. Therefore, we have now this power which the Barlow Report recommended we should take. I will say more on the Barlow Report in a moment, but that will come in more conveniently later. On the other hand, when industrialists consult in a friendly manner with the Government as to their future plans the Government will be able to use their influence, which is of many kinds, to steer new factory development into the areas where, on a broad view of the national interest, new industrial development should take place. That is a most essential power which, in the past, has been lacking.
  Let me add this in relation to defence. In future we must never allow an area which is essential to the defence of the country to fall into a state of decay, misery and mass unemployment, an area on which we should depend in the event of further threats to our security. I refer to areas upon which we are dependent for shipbuilding, munition making, or iron and steel, or for coal, which is a fundamental munition both of peace and war. We must never allow such areas again to fall into a state of decay, unemployment and depression. It is stated in the White Paper that the Government, in deciding to which areas to steer new factory developments, will take account not only of industrial and social but also of strategic and defence considerations.
  Let me now run over briefly the further means by which the Government intend to assist these Development Areas. It is the intention of the Government that factories engaged in arms production in the Development Areas, where this arms production will be required as part of the permanent defence arrangements of the country, shall, so far as that is practicable, continue to produce munitions after the war. Evidently how much can be done under this head will depend upon the total armaments programme which it is necessary in the circumstances at the end of the war to set on foot and to carry on as a permanent part of the defence of the country; but, so far as it is practicable, we shall keep arms factories now in the Development Areas working to full capacity. I am not talking of keeping them on a care and maintenance basis or
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  of their working only to partial capacity, but, in so far as they can be kept working to full capacity as part of the permanent programme of arms production, a preference will be given by the Government to these areas in the planning of post-war arms production. Where, on the other hand—and this is important—it is clear that an arms factory in a Development Area will not be required as part of the post-war arms production programme, then the sooner it is released from arms production the better. The more quickly it can be turned over to production for civilian purposes, ahead of comparable arms factories in other areas, where the danger of unemployment is less the better it will be not merely for that Development Area but for the country as a whole.
  Therefore, in summary, our policy with regard to arms factories in development areas, in so far as they can be embodied in the arms production programme, is to give a preference to those areas, and otherwise to give them the quickest possible release in order to enable them to switch over to production for civilian purposes.
  Mr. Sloan: There are few in Scotland.
  Mr. Dalton: If there are none in Scotland then there is no problem, but as a matter of fact there are many there. For security reasons I shall not mention the names of factories in any particular places and I hope that hon. Members will recognise the wisdom of that. This is not the time when we should parade the names of factories, particularly of new buildings, which would be of as much interest to the enemy as to ourselves, and, therefore, I ask leave to be excused from saying anything about particular places. If my hon. Friend thinks there are not any in Scotland then his travels in Scotland have been limited in scope.
  The next point to which I wish to direct attention concerns the industrial building permits. So far as new building is concerned,
  "To the extent that existing factory buildings are insufficient to secure a proper balance of industry in the Development Areas the Government will give priority to these areas in the grant of licences for the building of new factories and extensions of existing factories."
  That will be found in Sub-section (c) of paragraph 26 on page 12 of the White

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  Paper. I repeat what I said on 8th December, that this is the most powerful lever which the Government dispose of with regard to the future location of industry—that no new factory can be established without a licence from the Government. We have a proposal under (d) regarding factory premises for smaller firms. This relates to the trading estates. The Government will continue the policy of erecting in Development Areas factories in individual or collective units for sale or lease. The trading estates were one of the developments of the inter-war period. In my view they were never carried as far as they should have been, but they afford great advantages, particularly to small men who do not want to sink a large part of their capital in bricks and mortar. The Government have put up in different parts of the country trading estates of varying sizes in which standard factories, modern, well-designed, well-lighted, have been built, and into those factories a number of new businesses have gone, and it is our intention that there shall be more trading estates in those areas and more widely-scattered trading estates. So far the tendency has been to have one for each area, but we do not think that is enough, and we shall aim at a larger number and a wider dispersion of trading estates.
  References are also made to the placing of Government contracts in those areas and to financial assistance for new businesses establishing themselves there. I need not dwell more on that at this stage. Detailed particulars of the financial assistance and the manner in which it will be furnished will be given to Parliament later. These are at present under discussion between my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and certain of my colleagues and myself. It would be premature at the moment to say anything further on this matter.
  Sir George Schuster: I would ask my right hon. Friend to develop the phrase "positive side of the Government policy". If I were assured that the matter of finance was to be raised later, I would not raise any further question at the moment.
  Mr. Dalton: I will have something to say about that later on.
  Sir Herbert Holdsworth: Can the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that, in giving this financial assistance to new firms just starting, he will also give countervailing assistance, by cheap loans, to businesses which are seriously menaced by these new competitors?
  Mr. Dalton: That is entirely opposed to the expansionist policy of the Government, but this is getting on rather wider ground and perhaps that can be debated when we take the White Paper as a whole. But I would leave no doubt in my hon. Friend's mind that this is a specific proposal for Government assistance for firms which show good prospects on a commercial basis and are set up in Development Areas. That does not mean that they will be set up at the expense of other people, and no one would think that, unless a very old-fashioned, pessimistic and restrictionist view of the position were taken. We have all, I hope, gone beyond that now.
  At this stage I wish to say a few words about the Barlow Commission's Report because they reported in the early days of this war, and there has been much discussion about their various proposals. I want to say, briefly, what the Government's attitude is towards the Barlow Report, but, first, I would like to pay my tribute to the work done by that Commission. They produced a great deal of very valuable statistical information and drew attention not merely to the narrow economic, but to the wider social and strategical, considerations in regard to the distribution of industry, and they made a valuable contribution to national thought on this matter. The Government accept—I use my words carefully here—the main ideas of the Barlow Report, but we shall apply these ideas rather differently from the manner suggested in that Report, for a very obvious reason. We are now dealing with quite different conditions from those which the Barlow Commission had to consider. They wrote their report in time of peace, although in the shadow of an impending war. We have now to act in time of war, though with a prospect of peace and post-war conditions. We have at our disposal to-day far more powerful weapons than the Barlow Commission could have contemplated would have been in the hands of the Government, for influencing industrial location. More than this, we are now working within a widely

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  different industrial pattern from that which the Barlow Commission had before them, inasmuch as a large number of Government factories have been built in various parts of the country since they reported, and these factories have considerably altered the balance of industry in the different areas.
  Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Could I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Barlow Commission was not mainly concerned with the redistribution of industry, whether the main idea of the Barlow Commission was the restriction of industry in particular areas, and whether that idea is only so far accepted to assist the development of the backward areas?
  Mr. Dalton: I will indicate to the Committee in a moment some of the ideas contained in the Barlow Report which the Government accept and intend to apply. I do not know how many of my hon. Friends have read the Barlow Report, but some, perhaps, read it some time ago and have not lately refreshed their minds with it. Others, no doubt, have read it more lately. The Barlow Report is not a unanimous Report. There was a majority Report by 10 of the members and a minority Report by three of the members. Of the majority of 10, three put in a separate note of reservation, and of the minority of three one put in a dissentient memorandum so that, in truth, it would be right to say that there is not one Barlow Report but four. The members were not unanimous, but none the less, there are certain matters on which they all agree.
  First of all, none of them believed that we had now got the best distribution of industry and population in the country that was possible. None of them took so complacent a view as that. In the second place none of them thought that we could get the right distribution of industry in the country without continuous and well-directed Government intervention. There is no comfort in the Barlow Report—in any section of it—for anyone who thinks that, if you leave things alone, all will come out for the best. That is rejected by all of them unanimously, whatever their other differences. The minority Barlow Report asks for a new Government Department to be set up to look after the planning of these matters. The majority do not ask for a new Govern-
  1382
  ment Department; they ask only for the setting up of a Board. I think the minority were right and the majority wrong. [An HON. MEMBER: "More jobs."] This new Department has already been created. The Ministry of Town and Country Planning is a response to the proposal of the minority on that matter, and let me here say that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Town and Country Planning and I, and our staffs—and I say this particularly to the right hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris), who raised this point at Question Time the other day—work very closely together, and I do not think there is any ground of divergency between his Department and mine as to what is necessary to be done in this field.
  The two main ideas in the Barlow Report were, first of all, what is sometimes called the "decongestion of congested areas"—the spreading out of those very congested areas over wider areas. The second main idea was the encouragement of a reasonable balance of industrial development as between the various regions in the country and the suitable diversification of industry within each region. These two ideas are accepted by the Government. The first is primarily a matter for the Minister of Town and Country Planning and he is dealing with it, and could give account to this Committee of what he is doing in the matter. But that is not primarily an industrial matter and, therefore, not primarily my concern. The second point is much more the concern of myself and some of my other right hon. Friends in the Government. It is the reasonable balance of industrial development in the country. How to establish industrial stability and steady employment is particularly the concern of the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Labour.
  The Barlow Report also proposed the imposition of a ban in certain areas. I have already spoken of that. We have powers to enforce that ban now and we reserve the right to use those powers, after proper consultation, as I have already indicated, by declining to give industrial building permits in any particular areas. These industrial building permits must continue for some time to come. It is idle for anyone to think that this particular form of Government Regulation

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  can be swept away over night, or can be swept away when we have merely got the surrender of Germany. It cannot, perhaps, be swept away even when we have the surrender of the Japanese enemy also. I would like, as clearly as I can, to put to the Committee why that must be so. For some time after the war building labour and materials will be in very short supply in relation to the immense demand there will be for new buildings of all kinds and, therefore, it is essential that we should have a national plan and be able to determine priorities in regard to the use of building labour and materials in the national interest. All over the country there will be an urgent need for new houses. That will be a predominant need in the minds of the soldiers returning from the war, and of their wives and relatives, and of many others, who have been living under cramped and miserable housing conditions for many years past. All over the country, in rural and urban areas, in Development Areas and other areas where industry is well diversified now, there will be an urgent need for new houses.
  But in many parts of the country there will be no such urgent need for new industrial development and the question we have to ask ourselves is, Where, in what parts of the country, can we justify the use of some of our scarce building labour and material for new industrial buildings? I think the answer to that is pretty clear. Generally speaking, we should, after the war, build new factories only in regions where they are not enough factories to furnish employment for the population. In those regions we should build factories as well as houses, but, elsewhere, where there is sufficient factory accommodation to furnish employment for the population, there, surely, we should concentrate on the building of houses and not factories. In those areas where there is sufficient factory accommodation to employ the population, the problem will be to secure, as munition work falls off, that in those factories already built and now existing, there shall be other work available. The problem there is not to build new factories, but to see that the existing factories are kept working at full capacity.
  Mr. Bowles: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain his statement
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  that there will be a shortage of building labour and materials after the war? Surely, he is speaking in terms of possible unemployment?
  Mr. Dalton: No, I am thinking in terms of building factories and houses in the right places. There will be a great shortage of new houses and, in some areas, of new factories. That, surely, is clear. There will be a shortage in relation to the demand which will be urgent and nation-wide.
  Sir Alfred Belt: I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there will be enough factory space in London to employ its population. I rather understand there is a tendency to forbid further development in London.
  Mr. Dalton: I am anxious not to get on to local instances, even in London, because that would incite all Members to rise and put questions. I have stated in connection with bans or restrictions on new factory development that that power would he used by the Government with great care and discretion. The Barlow Report recommended the prohibition of new factory development in London. We do not accept that as it stands. We shall consider each case on its merits, but I say, quite frankly, that London is not one of the areas where there is urgent need for factory development. The most urgent need is elsewhere. I would add that it is no solution merely to provide new houses for unemployed people. You must provide work for these people as well. Therefore, it would be wrong, in areas where there is need for factory development, to concentrate unduly on the building of houses and to ignore the need for new industrial buildings. I hope I have spent enough time on paragraph 26 of the White Paper—
  Mr. Buchanan: Am I to take it that the housing policy is to be qualified by all sorts of limitations and linked with this and that other policy? [Interruption.] I do not know why people speak as if Ministers were people descended from the clouds. No matter how hellish housing conditions are, unless the policy to build new houses is linked up with other policies, there are to be no new houses. That is what the right hon. Gentleman did say—that it was no use building houses for unemployed people. He pro-

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  ceeded to say that unless housing was linked up with employment, there would be no need for houses. The Government have clearly in their minds at what stage houses are to be built, but apart from whether they provide industries in the City of Glasgow, or not, I say that conditions there are so hellish that the Government must go on with housing.
  Mr. Dalton: I am not in the least bit touchy where my hon. Friend is concerned, but he did not hear what I said.
  Mr. Buchanan: I did, I listened to it.
  Mr. Dalton: My hon. Friend did not hear what I said, and therefore, I will say it again. I said that there would be an urgent need for new houses, everywhere, all over the country, in urban and rural areas, in Development Areas and in developed areas. In Glasgow, therefore, among other places, there will be a need for new houses. I said it, and I meant it. But there will not be a need for new industrial buildings everywhere, and where there is not a need for new industrial buildings we can concentrate on houses. Where there is a need for new industrial buildings, we can build houses and also build new factories. I said that it is no solution of our problem to provide good houses for unemployed men. I repeat that. You want good houses, and employment for those who live in them.
  Mr. Buchanan: I want good houses and I want employment, and I am not going to be fobbed off with housing being linked up with something else. The human demand for houses has to be solved and it must not be fobbed off for some other reasons.
  Mr. Dalton: I have said my say, and the Committee either agree with it or not. Nothing is to be gained by saying it a third time. The hon. Member can read it to-morrow in HANSARD, and he will agree or disagree.
  Captain Duncan: Will it be necessary to have a building licence, for an extension or an adaptation of a building?
  Mr. Dalton: If the extension is large, "Yes." If it is small, "No." It is a matter of practical commonsense. Now may I say a word on paragraph 27?
  Captain Strickland: Before the Minister leaves paragraph 26, will he
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  say whether he has in mind the compulsory shifting of labour from place to place? Just as he proposes to compel the manufacturer to put up his factory in a certain place, is he also prepared to take power to shift men from one district to another?
  Mr. J. J. Lawson: Is the hon. and gallant Member aware that the compulsory shifting of labour has taken place over long years, and that we know it very well, too?
  Mr. Dalton: I am not discussing that matter to-day. We are talking about industrial location. Questions concerning labour come under the Department of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, who will, no doubt, take part in the Debate later. I am anxious not to stray beyond the subject of the location of industry.
  I want to say a word about communications by road, rail and sea, to and through these Development Areas. Paragraph 27 is a useful one, to which I would direct the attention of hon. Members. Reference is made to many ways of stimulating development in those areas and of improving communications, including docks and harbours, as well as roads and railways. I myself, having studied those areas in the past in some detail, am convinced that one of the most necessary measures to be taken to get full employment and prosperity, in the areas of which we are speaking, is the improvement of communications by road, rail and sea, and through harbour development, and so on. I am in touch, particularly since this White Paper has come out, and I have had discussions with, my Noble Friend the Minister of War Transport, and I am asking him to give special consideration to these matters. He has promised to do so, and his officials and mine are in contact.
  The new bridge across the Severn has already been announced as having a high priority in the Government's post-war road programme—the new road bridge to be constructed well below Gloucester. I think that will have very great importance for South Wales and it will be a big new inducement for industries to settle in South Wales. It will help to break down that isolation which has necessarily existed in the past, for geographical reasons, between South Wales and England. This is a very important step forward. I will

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  give my Noble Friend my full support in pressing on that project. There are many other developments in communications, into which I will not go in detail, but I attach very great importance to them, and the Government will do their utmost to press them forward. There is also great need to improve communications between South Wales and the Midlands; there is too much isolation between them. I am not prepared to discuss the actual lines of roads and so on, but I am discussing with the Ministry of War Transport methods by which we can improve communications between South Wales and the Midlands and put each of them upon the other's map. I will not go further into the details beyond saying that each of the Development Areas has its own urgent problems for improving communications, and that this matter must be actively pursued.
  Sir R. W. Smith: The Minister said just now that he did not intend to deal with specific cases, but he has just referred to the specific case of South Wales. May I ask him what is to be the position about the proposed road bridge over the Forth?
  The Deputy-Chairman: The position is becoming a little difficult for the Minister. He said he was not going into details, but it is obvious that there are exceptions occasionally, in such matters as these. I suggest that it might be advisable now for the Minister to finish his speech and that hon. Members refrain from making interruptions with regard to their particular areas; otherwise, I am afraid we shall have very few speakers in the Debate.
  Mr. Buchanan: I want to put a point, arising out of what you have just said, Mr. Williams. One of the most valuable things in a Debate like this is to be able to interrupt and cross-examine a Minister. That is frequently of great value because, in essence, it is not the particular speech which matters so much as what the Minister means by it. One of our most important functions is that of frequent interruption, because the explanations we get of points as the Minister goes along are most valuable.
  The Deputy-Chairman: That is why I allowed the hon. Member to make a fairly long series of interruptions just now. I intended to suggest that we should not
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  have too many details of schemes affecting this or that area. The Minister has had a considerable number of interruptions, and I suggest, our time being limited, that it is a process which might go too far.
  Mr. Dalton: It is difficult to steer a way between being quite general and getting bogged in a great mass of detail. I was endeavouring, in this particular case, to give an illustration of general policy. That illustration, moreover, was taken from a public announcement that has already been made, as to the intentions of the Government to get on with the Severn bridge. I will endeavour not to excite too much localised cross-examination by not referring to particular localities. I would now draw attention to paragraph 28.
  Colonel Greenwell: I hesitate to interrupt the Minister, but there is a very important point in paragraph 27 on which he has not touched, and upon which, I am certain, many of us would like further information. It is with regard to the improvement of dock and harbour installations. I would like to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that certain docks are in the hands of authorities of various kinds, or of railway companies, and to ask him whether the improvements proposed will take place only at the actual request of the authorities concerned. It has been the practice of railway companies and others to neglect certain forms of communication in which they were interested, if they felt so disposed, and that practice has acted inimically to the interests of the populations living in the areas concerned.
  Mr. Dalton: That is, obviously, a matter of detail with which the Ministry of Transport is primarily concerned. I am merely concerned to improve communications to and through the areas in question. No doubt my Noble Friend will pay attention to what the hon. and gallant Member has just said. I was about to direct attention to paragraph 28, which indicates that the measures required in order to bring about full employment in the various areas concerned will vary, according to the character of the area, and from time to time. It is definitely stated here that there can be no final list of Development Areas, because areas which have regained their prosperity by the aid of the measures we are contemplating will

  1389
  be able to be removed from the list—and what a happy day that will be for all those concerned in those areas—while other areas which we have not thought of in the past, perhaps, as needing special stimulus and development, will come into the list for economic reasons, perhaps only for a short time, in order that a stimulus can be provided there. There can be no fixes and final list. The aim of the Government is to develop any of those Development Areas which, for the time being, is in need of additional stimulus. The test of the success of the Government's policy will be that unemployment in any particular area concerned shall be brought down to whatever is the national level for the time being, and that it shall not have abnormal unemployment, in excess of the national average, while that average must be reduced to the very lowest figure which the general policy of the Government can bring about. It is with this level that the Development Area will have its unemployment figures compared over a period of years.
  I will now pass on to answer a question which is sometimes asked by some of my hon. Friends, that is whether the policy set out in the White Paper is new, and whether there is anything in this policy which is different from, and better than, the policy pursued in the Special Areas, which achieved not very much, as compared with our hopes, between the two wars. That question is often asked. There were, as Chief Commissioners in the Special Areas, several very able and devoted men. Sir Malcolm Stewart said many wise, true and forceful things, and later on Sir George Gillett did his best, in the years before the war. Those Commissioners made appeals to industrialists—"appeals" is the right word—but they were only able to offer inducements which, to be quite frank, were of no interest to large firms employing large numbers of people. The inducements they offered were of more interest to small concerns, particularly on trading estates. In those years before the war, industrialists used to be able to put up a new factory anywhere they liked—that is the plain truth—in spite of all the appeals made by the Commissioners and Ministers in this House.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: And close them whenever they liked.
  Mr. Dalton: That is not the case to-day, and it will not be the case during the currency of the powers to which I have been referring. The situation, from that point of view, is completely changed. I would remind the Committee briefly of the trend of industrial development in those years during which Special Areas legislation was operative. I am quoting figures from the Board of Trade Annual Survey. In 1936, 551 new factories were built, of which only eight were in the four Special Areas, in spite of all the appeals that were made. In 1937, there were 541 new factories, only 17 of which were in the Special Areas, and there were 237 factory extensions in that year, of which only five were in the Special Areas.
  Mr. MacLaren: Could the Minister correlate two matters, and say how many of those factories were attracted to the low rateable areas—because many of the factories escaped from high rateable areas?
  Mr. Dalton: There are all sorts of reasons, but what I want to contrast is what was happening in the years before the war under the Special Areas legislation with what we are proposing should come about now, and are already bringing about now. I am quoting figures to show that, in fact, the vast majority of these new factories and extensions to existing factories were made outside the Special Areas, in spite of the inducements and in spite of the powers under the Special Areas Act. If I may quote from the Barlow Report a very striking figure, five-sixths of the new factories established between 1932 and 1936 were in Greater London.
  Mr. MacLaren: These were lower rateable areas.
  Mr. Dalton: I am only giving the facts. We can all debate the reasons. But that was a very bad state of affairs and I am sure that no one will defend the facts which I am now summarising.
  Sir John Jarvis: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the figures beyond 1937—say 1938 and 1939?
  Mr. Dalton: No. I have not come prepared with any more of these statistics. There was a very slight improvement in later years, but the broad trend was for new factory development to by-

  1391
  pass the Special Areas altogether. There was a tendency for an enormous concentration of new development in the London area, so that, if there is even now a shortage of factory accommodation in London, that must be due to the unnecessary entry of new labour to London from Special Areas. There is a vast difference between the situation between the two wars and now, in two respects. First, the Government are committed, in this White Paper, to a new far-reaching policy designed to secure employment not only for the country as a whole but in these Development Areas also. No Government previously has committed itself along these lines. In the second place, although I am not going to mention names, new factories are to-day being built predominantly in the Development Areas. That is where new factory construction is taking place and will continue to take place predominantly.
  We are seeking to weave all our new industrial development into a national pattern. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Production is here, and I wish to pay a tribute to him for the new policy he was responsible for instituting in 1942. He instituted it for war reasons, but it has great value also for peace purposes. My right hon. Friend found in his duties in connection with production for the war, that there was a very acute shortage of labour in a number of industrial areas in the Midlands, London and elsewhere, in spite of all the direction of labour that was taking place under the great powers of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. Certain areas were becoming congested with war production. There was an acute shortage of labour. On the other hand there were other areas—again substantially the old Special Areas, the Development Areas we are now speaking of—where there was labour available. Therefore my right hon. Friend gradually instituted a scheme whereby contracts, and such new industrial building as could be carried out at this time, should be steered towards these areas where there was, not a surplus, but a less acute shortage, of labour than in the older industrial regions.
  Sir G. Schuster: That was when the Government were placing all the orders.
  Mr. Dalton: Yes, but the turning of the tide, the change from feeding the
  1392
  fat and starving the lean, began in 1942. It began for war reasons under the impulse of my right hon. Friend, and I am paying my tribute to him for that important turning point. We are now going further along the same road and are going to carry this policy on into the peace. We are going to continue to steer new factory construction into areas where it is necessary to furnish employment for the people in those areas. That is the whole essence of the policy I am defending to-day in the Committee.
  Apart from the reasons you have given, Mr. Williams, for not mentioning particular places, there is another reason, that of security, why it is undesirable. I have a list here in order, to refresh my own mind, but it would be most undesirable for me to give names of places where new industrial development has been taking place under the scheme instituted by my right hon. Friend and myself, as that would be an indication of suitable targets for what is left of the Luftwaffe. But I will say this, and I say it with full knowledge of the facts, and with full knowledge of some facts which cannot be made public at present, that there is a steadily lengthening list of new standard factories, some of which have already been built and already in production, some of which are going up now on the sites, and others which have been quite definitely scheduled to go up on other sites. These standard factories are being built in accordance with the principles I have indicated to the Committee, of putting the factories in the places where it is most necessary to furnish a balanced and diversified employment after the war. This is where war interests and peace interests coincide. My right hon. Friend in the action he has taken in this matter was thinking of getting the maximum production of munitions in the shortest possible time, and getting the most effective use of available labour and productive capacity. The building of these new standard factories is part of our war effort. The location of these factories is part of our peace effort as well, and will have great importance in years to come.
  I have no doubt that these modern factories will be fully used after the war. They are very much more attractive for the purposes of modern industries than a number of the older factories situated in

  1393
  some of the older industrial areas. I have no doubt they will be fully used by industrialists in the future. I shall be working, or anyone who subsequently holds my office as President of the Board of Trade will be working, in close association with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Production, or any successor to him, and with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, or any successor to him, in the period when war production is tapering off, which will be a very delicate and difficult adjustment to make. The President of the Board of Trade will have to work very closely with the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Production, as I explained in the Debate on 8th December, in order to see that, when we get the releases of labour turning over from war production to peace production and of industrial capacity turning over from war production to peace production, we get those releases is those areas and trades which are most necessary in the national interests, having regard to employment as a whole, to civilian needs and to the needs of the export trade.
  Sir Patrick Hannon: In view of the necessity for making a very careful and accurate survey of the possibilities of converting munitions factories to commercial purposes, is any part of the machinery of the Board of Trade employed for that specific purpose?
  Mr. Dalton: Yes, indeed, and not in isolation at the Board of Trade, but in close consultation with the Supply Departments, who have very special knowledge of these matters. Very active work is going on at this time on this question. It is a co-operative job between Ministers and their staffs. None of us are working in isolation, but we are playing for the team as a whole, and for the country as a whole, and not in any narrow Departmental spirit.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: Are the principals in these big armament factories, some of whom are distinguished engineers and chemists, being consulted by the Department? I have reason for asking because I know that some of them are anxious to give their assistance and place their suggestions before the Department.
  Mr. Dalton: Some have already expressed views which are very valuable.
  1394
  We shall be only too pleased to hear their views on any of these subjects. We invite the fullest consultation and the pooling of ideas so that we may put to the best postwar use these very fine additions to the industrial equipment of this country.
  Mr. Mathers: To whom should Members of Parliament make representations on matters of this kind?
  Mr. Dalton: To me. It is laid down in paragraph 30 of the White Paper:
  "…There should be a single channel"—
  this is a rather painful passage, perhaps, looking forward to the future,—
  "through which Government policy on the distribution of industry can be expressed.…The Government therefore propose that the channel for the expression of Government policy in this matter shall be the Board of Trade.…The President of the Board of Trade will be responsible to Parliament for all the general aspects of the policy; and, on these, inquiries and representations from interested sections of the public will be made through the Board of Trade."
  Therefore, that is part of my responsibility [Interruption]. No, I cannot give way again. My hon. Friend has had two very good innings.
  Mr. Buchanan: I was not going to intervene—
  The Deputy-Chairman: If the right hon. Gentleman does not give way I am afraid that a question cannot be asked.
  Mr. Dalton: If my hon. Friend has any suggestions to make or questions to put I will be delighted to receive or answer them.
  Mr. Buchanan: I only intended to say, if the right hon. Gentleman had given way, that I have often made suggestions, and that there is never much attention paid to suggestions from Back Bench Members.
  Mr. Dalton: My hon. Friend is mistaken and pessimistic. Many of my brightest thoughts have come from my colleagues. Perhaps I may in conclusion say why I am speaking to-day, and why the Board of Trade Vote was put down. I was appointed to speak for the Government when the question of the location of industry was raised in December last. Therefore, it was supposed, I imagine, that my Vote had best be put down

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  to-day. It is clearly explained in paragraph 30 of the White Paper that no single Government Department can take full responsibility for this very complex and far-reaching policy. The main responsibility will rest with the Board of Trade, the Ministry of Labour and National Service, the Ministry of Town and Country Planning and the Scottish Office. Members will know that the authority of the Ministry of Town and Country Planning extends only to the Tweed. It has no authority North of the Tweed. There it is the Secretary of State for Scotland [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the Ministry of Agriculture?"]
  "The main responsibility—"
  I am quoting from the White Paper
  "—will rest with the Board of Trade, the Ministry of Labour and National Service, the Ministry of Town and Country Planning and the Scottish Office."
  I have also already indicated the great importance of the Ministry of Production in this connection, particularly in the switch-over from war to peace. But it is most desirable to limit the number of people who share the main responsibility, though a number of other Departments have lesser responsibilities.
  Mr. MacLaren: This would be a relevant matter for the Ministry of Agriculture, because when we take new land and sites the Ministry of Agriculture always come into it.
  Mr. Dalton: I have no doubt that the Ministry of Agriculture will not be backward in coming forward, when necessary. Although this responsibility is thus distributed, it has been laid down that it is the President of the Board of Trade who will deal with questions in Parliament on the general aspects of this policy. Therefore, it is right that I should to-day declare that I believe this policy can achieve its purpose. I have always believed that. When I spoke from that side of the House before the war on the depressed areas, I proclaimed my view that this was a soluble problem, given vigour, energy, and the national determination to solve it.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: And power.
  Mr. Dalton: And power. I believe that, with energy, intelligence and good will, we can wipe out this terrible reproach which rested on us before the war. If
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  such a policy is pressed forward with vigour, on the lines indicated in the White Paper, in the transitional period I am certain that it will give us, in a comparatively short term of years, a well-balanced and diversified industry in each main region in the country; and that will be a sure foundation for the employment of our people in the years to come. I must apologise for having spoken at considerable length, but during part of the time my hon. Friends have been helping me with questions and suggestions. I hope I have given the Committee a broad statement of that part of the White Paper which deals with the location of industry. I am sure that, if the Committee will give the Government its support on this matter, it will result in a great advance on the lines which we hope to follow.
  Mr. Daggar: My object is not to discuss the content of the White Paper—that will require two, if not three, days' discussion, in future—but I hope to make perfectly clear the extent to which I disagree and the extent to which I agree with the references made by the right hon. Gentleman to the White Paper. Were it considered necessary, we who raise this question of the location of industry would readily assure the Committee and the Government that we do so not to cause embarrassment or to create additional difficulties, but because we are convinced that there is a need for the Government to inform us of their policy on this important and urgent problem, not by a White Paper only, but in an Act of Parliament. No one, especially in view of what is now taking place on the Continent, could be actuated by any other motive. We are anxious to know what is proposed and what are the plans, if any. If there are none, when is it proposed to prepare them, and when can they be expected? We think that these questions are relevant and pertinent to the subject under discussion. They are the result of our anxiety, because of the experience that we had in the inter-war period. We put them to the Minister of Reconstruction and to the President of the Board of Trade, the former, in particular, because he appears to be experiencing much enjoyment—at least, we hope so—from over-indulgence in speeches, most, if not all, of which lack conviction and give no satisfaction. He himself would, in different circumstances, agree that talk is a

  1397
  poor substitute for action, and words a poor substitute for deeds. Neither is the recently-issued White Paper on Employment Policy a reply to those observations and questions, because that document is only a paper.
  Members have been reminded by the right hon. Gentleman that this matter was raised on 8th December, in an Amendment to the King's Speech, and, if further justification for again raising the matter is necessary, it is to be found in the Government's reply, which was made on that day by the President of the Board of Trade. He said:
  "I welcome the emotion and the interest which has been shown in the discussion of this subject, and I ask for the continued support and stimulus of all parties, so that we may find a worthy solution to this problem.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th December, 1943; Vol. 395, c. 1074.]
  I think that that was a very valuable suggestion, but it appears very strange that we should be asked to goad or excite the Government to action. It would be interesting to ascertain the limit to such goading. I suppose it would be said that we should set the limit at the entrance to the Division Lobby, because the question of a Vote of Confidence would then arise. In fact, we are asked not to employ censorious language in a Motion upon the Order Paper, because the Prime Minister has said that he would consider such a Motion a Vote of Censure. What can be done to excite vital action? We want a solution of the problem of the location of industry, in order to prevent the continuance of the Depressed Areas. That is our chief object.
  All the required information is with the Government. There are seven official Reports. There are also the recommendations of the Barlow Commission, which have been in existence since 1940. Another Report has been issued recently by the Welsh Advisory Council. It is true that there is not much in it which is new, but it is an important document, demanding consideration by the appropriate Departments. Also, there is the experience which some of us have had in these areas for the last 25 years, excluding part of the war period. Some of us decline to enter into competition with the Minister without Portfolio, whose Department has been described as the "Ministry of Stimulation." We claim that it is incumbent upon those who seek
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  to justify and perpetuate an economic arrangement which creates the problem to accept the responsibility for its solution. It is for those individuals who possess the power to remove the cause of these black spots in the country to take action, and not for them to ask other people to pursue a policy of goading or prodding the Government. In some respects the reports, the books, the pamphlets, the documents, and the discussions provided by those whose responsibility it is to discover a remedy for this admittedly serious social disorder have been too numerous. Lord Keynes once remarked that there is nothing that a Government hates more than to be well-informed, because it makes the process of arriving at decisions much more complicated and difficult. If that he true, knowledge appears to restrict and retard action rather than to release and accelerate it, which, unless it applies to the present office-holders only, I do not believe.
  In the speech to which I have referred it was stated by the right hon. Gentleman that the term "Distressed Areas" had been banned and washed out of their vocabulary, and that the words "Development Areas" and "Defence Areas" had been substituted. I wish it were as easy to wash out these areas, but you cannot aid them by changing their name; you cannot prevent the return of these areas by improving your choice of language. The absence of any definite plan, in the form of an Act of Parliament, for the location of industry leads me to the impression that there exists an attitude of fatalism and of awaiting some automatic, but undefined, movement to attain the desired result. Even spectacular palliatives appear to be without attraction. Everything appears to be subordinated to an anticipated, unaided post-war general improvement in the trade of the country. That opinion of mine was, to some extent, held by the Minister in December, when he told the House:
  "I say, with the utmost sincerity and conviction, that there must be, after this war, no more such impotence, and that in these distressed areas, as we used to call them, there must be, as in the rest of the country, food, work, and homes for all our people."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th December, 1943; Vol. 395. c. 1065.]
  Many of us are still convinced that, unless steps are taken now to decide this

  1399
  issue, "Food, work, and homes" will remain a mere slogan, a repetition of words which brings no relief. Those of us who have lived in the areas once distressed appreciate the undertaking given by the right hon. Gentleman on 8th December, but some of them are qualified by the words, "If I am still at that time President of the Board of Trade." It is because that may not be his position after the war that we now press for some definite policy. We ought not to depend on who is occupying a particular office at a particular time. The question is, What are the present proposals of the Government for dealing with this problem?
  Many Members are much concerned about this question from another point of view, its relation to town planning and housing, which again shows how extremely difficult it is to examine and discuss this question of location of industry in isolation. The Report issued by the Department of Health for Scotland, called Infant Mortality in Scotland, shows that, in the five years before this war commenced, Scotland had the highest mortality rate of 17 countries, and the Committee responsible for the Report desired, first, to record its conviction that the infant mortality rate in Scotland is high because a large part of the population, both in towns and rural areas, lives under poor housing conditions and in poverty, much of which was due to unemployment or was aggravated by unemployment. That, I submit, is ample justification, without any prodding or goading, of the demand we are making to-day.
  Much dissatisfaction is felt, and much apprehension is shown, with the unnecessary dispersion of power regarding this question. Some of us think that there are too many Departments fiddling with this serious problem. It seems to be the business of every Ministry and yet the business of none. There are the Minister of Reconstruction, the Minister without Portfolio, the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Town and Country Planning, to mention four only. To expect coordination is utterly impossible. We think there should be, as the Barlow Commission Report recommends, the formation of a central authority to undertake this task. [An HON. MEMBER: "Superior to any Government Department?"] Oh, yes.
  1400
  Here I would like to emphasise again the three points I have already made. Firstly, the difficulty of dealing with this problem in isolation, apart from general questions of planning. The location of industry implies planning, and planning implies deciding where industries, especially new ones, shall be established. Secondly, the impossibility of co-ordinating the existing Ministries or State Departments. Thirdly, because of this impossibility, the creation, as recommended by the Barlow Commission, of a central planning authority.
  During the right hon. Gentleman's speech no less than six questions were put to him affecting, to some extent, entirely different subjects. There was the question of housing, in which some hon. Members are interested, and the question of roads was brought up, as well as questions of bridges and even of docks. It shows how impossible it is for any effective action unless there is co-ordination amongst these Ministries or the creation of a central authority. I know I shall be told that it is possible for the existing three or four Ministries to undertake this task, but, to those who think so, let me commend this quotation from the "New Statesman" of 15th May of last year. It deserves a reply.
  "To plan for the future of, say, South Wales, involves considering, inter alia, the use of land, the location of industry, the building of houses, schools and other community buildings, the development of transport, electricity, water supply and other public utility services, the place of agriculture in the corning economy, and the prospects of population and labour supply in both a quantitative and a qualitative sense. These matters belong to the spheres of at least nine Departments, not counting the Reconstruction Secretariat, whose province it defies human wit to get clear. Use of land involves the Ministry of Town and Country Planning—"—
  Mr. MacLaren: He has no power over land.
  Mr. Daggar: The quotation goes on:
  "—location of industry the Board of trade, housing the Ministry of Health, school-building the Board of Education, transport the Ministry of Transport, electricity the Ministry of Fuel and Power, water supply the Ministry of Health and several others, agriculture the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, population the Registrar-General and labour supply the Minister of Labour."
  Mr. MacLaren: And Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all.
  Mr. Daggar: It does seem extremely difficult to ascertain to what extent the

  1401
  location of industry can be a success without involving the consideration by all, or by a majority, of these other Ministries. There is another phase of this subject about which we are entitled to know something, because it illustrates the point I have just made. It refers to the postwar use of Government factories. This property belongs to the nation. The persons engaged in these factories, or some of them, know what it is to live in Depressed Areas for six to 10 years without employment, and they desire to know what we propose to do with them after the war, and they want to know now. The cause of this inquiry is due to the nature of a reply recorded in HANSARD dated 23rd May. The hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Wakefield) asked the President of the Board of Trade:
  "What plans have been made for the utilisation of factories owned by the State?"
  The right hon. Gentleman replied:
  "It is not possible at present to say whether, or when, any of these factories will be available for transfer from war to peace-time production, but any firm desiring to apply for the use of any of them after the war should communicate with the Board of Trade."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd May; Vol. 400, C. 561.]
  We have been told by no less an authority than Professor A. M. Low about the wonders that are being done in our factories through the introduction of new tools, new methods and new manufacturing technique. He has informed us to-day rifles are made more than a dozen times faster by unskilled labour than they were by skilled labour in 1939, and that a new method of manufacturing certain, shells has resulted in a saving of 18,000,000 man-hours. What we want to know is, Are the benefits of these improvements, some of which must accrue to those who, after the war, will produce peace-time articles, to be conferred upon private firms? That appears to be the policy of the Government. We consider this matter of considerable importance. The Secretary of State for Air on 29th February informed this House that no, less than 1,000,000 new buildings had been created and the Select Committee on National Expenditure, and the Minister of Production, have informed us of the enormous sum of public money spent upon factories, plants, etc., during this war. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Production stated on 18th May:
  1402
  "The total of approved expenditure from public funds on war factory buildings since the beginning of the rearmament period is about £30,000,000."
  That was part of a reply given to my. hon. Friend, the Member for Stoke (Mr. Ellis Smith) who asked that this large outlay of public money should be utilised after the war in the best interests of the nation, on which the hon. Member for Swindon observed:
  "Is not the best way to utilise private enterprise?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th May, 5944; Vol. 400, c. 337.]
  Some of us do not think so. What enterprise was it that gave us an average annual unemployed army of 1,500,000 for 18 years after the last war? The hon. Member again wants to give it another opportunity of creating these infernal Depressed Areas. It is true all parties are interested in this question of the location of industry, but where we disagree is that most hon. Members opposite seek to perpetuate the system which creates these areas, while we, on this side, seek to destroy the system which makes them possible. I have great respect for the lion. Member for Swindon, whom I look upon as an authority, at least on football. He is certainly qualified to speak with a degree of authority on chemistry, and I am informed that he also has a knowledge of herbs, but I refuse to accept him as an authority either on trade or industry. The sum of £830,000,000 is a large sum, and the interests of the people to whom it belongs should be protected. Moreover, it should be a factor in deciding the location of industry. Some of us on these benches dared to suggest to the Government that they should take over the mining industry, but we were soon told by the Prime Minister that that would require a mandate from the people of this country. There is no mandate suggested now regarding the handing back of this £830,000,000 worth of property to private individuals, and I contend that Parliament has no right to dispose of this property, paid for by public money, to private individuals without the observance of the same procedure as was suggested to us when we sought, by tabling a Motion, to take over the mines of this country.
  On 8th December, the President of the Board of Trade stated, and he repeated it to-day and many of his statements are now embodied, to his credit, in the White Paper, that some Government factories,

  1403
  by reason of their lay-out, might be well adapted, with certain structural alterations, to be new centres of light industry, for the development of new processes and new materials in which, I hope, we shall take a definite lead after the war. I am not opposed to trading estates, but they are no solution to the unemployment problem in areas like my own. A trading estate in Pontypridd does not relieve unemployment in my division any more than an industry in London would relieve unemployment in Pontypridd. Is it possible to secure a number of small industries on a trading estate? In Heaven's name, what is there impossible about singling out a few small industries and bringing them into valleys similar to the one I have the honour to represent?
  What is being done now? I have three local authorities in my division who submitted plans regarding vacant buildings. Sheets and sheets of paper containing information was sent to these Departments. As a result the owner of an undertaking came into my division and had the site examined, levels taken and plans agreed to. He was immediately informed that there was a better site in another part of Wales, and his firm went there and we have had nothing since. The right hon. Gentleman cannot be expected to see that these small undertakings go to particular areas, but there should be a measure of compulsion imposed upon them to go to areas which have had no benefit as the result of the war.
  This brings me to my final point, and one which goes to the root of the problem of the location of industry—the question of offering inducements to those new undertakings as against a measure of compulsion. The method of discouraging the establishment of industries in particular parts of the country is being advocated, but I propose to ignore that method. To be effective, it must, to some extent, take the form of compulsion. In any event, we cannot afford to permit these industries to cluster and congest certain areas as we did after the last war. From 1932 to 1937 Greater London had no less than 1,400 of these new undertakings and the total number established in the seven other regions during that period was only 1,712, which included 125 for the whole of Scotland and 39 for Wales and Monmouthshire. The number of
  1404
  people provided with employment in these factories in Greater London was 111,700, against factories employing only 10,000 in the whole of England and a miserable 5,000 in Wales and Monmouthshire. General Ashmore informed us, through a letter he sent to "The Times" in 1937, that in London was centred at least a third of the total activities of England, and Sir William Beveridge also wrote a letter pointing out that the traffic round the docks was in an appalling and chronic state of congestion. In a peculiarly titled book, "Glass Houses and Modern War," the statement is to be found that:
  "In the ten years alone between 1921 and 1931 London grew by nine per cent.; it is growing still. London is not only vast but thickly peopled; the City and Administrative County in 1931 held 58 people to the acre, against Birmingham's 19 and Cardiff's 20."
  I hope that I shall not be misunderstood and give the impression that I am arguing that it is preferable to have factories in Wales as against factories in London. After all, the most that is achieved is a distribution of employment and of the employed. Whether the factories are in London or Wales, or Scotland or in any other part of the country, it simply means that you do not solve the problem of employment but rather that you assist in the process of distributing the unemployed.
  What about the inducement offered to the owners of these undertakings after the last war? We had the Special Areas (Development and Improvement) Act, 1934, and the Special Areas Reconstruction (Agreement) Act, 1936, which were operated and provided special financial facilities for firms prepared to establish new industries in these special areas. Over £2,000,000 was spent on trading estates to house these undertakings, but not with the success that some of us anticipated. According to the Surveys of Industrial Development, issued by the Board of Trade annually before the war broke out, owners of these undertakings were asked to give their reasons for the erection of factories in particular regions, and in the course of the six years already mentioned the reason given in 51 cases was that the undertakings were in close proximity to the residences of the owners. I am anxious to know whether that is to be an excuse when this war comes to an end and the remedy is not to be found in additional inducements.

  1405
  If it is right to conscript men and women to defend life and property, it is equally right to compel people to maintain life by the erection of property in the form of factories in areas where such property is required. If it is right to direct labour to industries, it is also right and reasonable to expect that we should take powers to direct industry to where there are unemployed people. It is well known, or it should be, that in 1939 there were in existence in this country 300 factories set up by refugees. The Home Secretary stated in the House of Commons in December, 1938, that whereas 11,000 refugees had been admitted in recent years, it was known that refugee employers had given direct employment to no less than 15,000 British workers. That figure, it is claimed, is an under estimate because Sir John Hope Simpson has estimated the total of British workers employed by German refugees in the autumn of 1938 to be no less than 25,000. I am indebted to a little broadsheet entitled "Planning" for this information and it illustrates the point I want to make. It is issued, as most hon. Members know, by an organisation known as "Political and Economic Planning," and it is dated 14th January, 1944. It says:
  "Britain benefited from the decline of Leipzig as an international fur market because refugees started as many as 50 new fur firms here with a capital of about £750,000 and an annual turnover of over £4,000,000."
  This is the question to which I want to ask Members to give consideration:
  "About one-third of these factories were in the 'depressed areas,' particularly in the Treforest and Team Valley Trading Estates. The Government's schemes for relieving distress attracted relatively few British, but relatively many refugee industrialists."
  What a splendid appreciation for having provided a home for these hunted people, and what a commentary on those British capitalists who lose no opportunity of parading their patriotism. These men must have been the same kind of men whom Johnson had in mind when he described patriotism as the last refuge of a scoundrel.
  It must be the policy of the Government not to increase the inducements to these people but to use a measure of compulsion. In view of what I have said, the latter method must be employed, unless the nation accepts responsibility for not only controlling the industries of this country but for owning them as well.
  1406
  Without that there can be no satisfactory and effective planning in this country. To refuse to solve this problem now will result in future mess, muddle and misery; it will cause disquiet, dissatisfaction and discontent. We need, as the right hon. Gentleman observed on 8th December, to be ashamed of what happened to the people of this country after the last war. If we fail our people again we deserve to be accused not only of cheating but of betraying all those who have died and whose sacrifice affords us an opportunity of doing the right thing, and that is, to take action now, not after the war, but long before this war comes to an end.
  The Chairman (Major Milner): I hope that the Committee will permit me to make an appeal. There are a great many Members, as on every recent similar occasion, who wish to take part in the Debate. As the Committee are aware, we have rather less than six hours' debating time and the Minister and the hon. Member for Abertillery (Mr. Daggar) have taken nearly one-third of that time. Unless some little self-denial is exercised by hon. Members, I am afraid that a number will be disappointed. The length of the speeches is not primarily a matter for the Chair at all, but I would venture to remind hon. Members that we are in Committee and that therefore the normal course is that speeches should be of usual Committee length. If hon. Members would be good enough to indulge in as brief speeches as possible it would help the Chair and enable the Chair to call upon many more hon. Members than will otherwise be the case.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Cuthbert Headlam: I can assure you, Major Milner, that I shall pay heed to your request and that my remarks will be very short. Any stranger from a less fortunate country than ours coming to this Committee today might be surprised that, at a moment such as this—one of the most critical moments in the war—we should be quietly discussing the location of industry after the war is over. Some people would consider this to be an example of British phlegm. I prefer to regard it as a sign of our supreme confidence in the result of the war that final victory will be ours and that we can plan for the future. I rather differed from the President of the Board of Trade when

  1407
  he said that no one from these Benches had hitherto taken much interest in the subject of the location of industry and that we should find this out if we looked into the pages of HANSARD. Let him look, and if he looks back he will find that for some years I, at any rate, have been talking about this subject for a considerable period of time and that other Conservative Members have been equally insistent. I am only one of many other Members of Parliament on this side of the Committee who have this matter at heart. No one who livid through the years after the last war in the North of England and saw the suffering that was entailed by the unemployment could not do all in his power to do what he could to prevent a similar state of things in the future. To bring new industries into the area is the most obvious thing to do. I am not going into facts and figures to-day, and certainly I am not going to quote "The New Statesman" or "Planning" or any other periodical that devotes itself to these matters. Anyone can read such papers for themselves and judge how good or how bad is their advice.
  I am going to try to put the case shortly, as we view it, on the North-East coast. We suffered after the last war. Our basic industries failed. Our population was too large for the work that was available and the result was that we had heavy unemployment or that our working population drifted away. We learned in these hard times that unless we had subsidiary industries we could not hope to tide over bad times. We were then faced with the difficulty that factories were not available in our part of the world, that we had not gone in for the lighter branches of industry in. the past, and that, unless we could provide factories and sites for factories, we could not hope to induce industrialists to come and set up their industries in our part of the world. We have to compete with London, with the Home Counties, with the Midlands, and they have had a long start. Now we realise that unless we can make up the lost time, unless we can provide requisite factories and sites for factories, we are not likely in the future any more than in the past to attract new industries to our part of the world.
  Therefore I welcome the White Paper, which shows that the Government realise
  1408
  our point of view. It might be criticised on the lines suggested by the hon. Member for Abertillery (Mr. Daggar). There seems to be too much sub-divided authority. There are too many Departments concerned. One had rather hoped that when the war was over we should get rid of what some of us have suffered from during the war. We have had to trapes round from one Department to another, for an answer to the simplest possible question. We had hoped that at least some of the war-time Departments would disappear, and I personally had hoped that one of them would be that recently created Ministry of Town and Country Planning. I cannot see what it is going to do, or why it has been brought into existence. I should imagine that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, with the assistance of the Ministry of Labour, and utilising the local authorities to the best advantage, could perfectly well have looked after this matter of the location of industry without the assistance of the Ministry of Town and Country Planning. His first task in the North-Eastern area, in my opinion, will be to see that a great many derelict spaces are cleared up. It is a matter of the utmost importance if we are to get new business men to come among us, and the local authorities cannot cope with it without assistance. While this clearing up process is going on I suppose my right hon. Friend will be busy negotiating with industrialists to bring new industries into our part of the world. If they all work happily together, if they do not try to do each other in—which is the habit of Departments—if they really sit down to the job, why then all may yet be well. However, I am, frankly, rather nervous of the plethora of Departments, and therefore I am glad to know that my right hon. Friend is to be the official channel of information. I trust that he will be an effective channel when the time comes.
  I should like to ask what are the intentions of the Government with regard to the commitments which have already been made in certain areas, certainly in my own area, by the Special Commissioners. Who in the future is to be responsible for these commitments? I should like an answer to this question because it seems to me of real importance. Unless these various undertakings, for which the Commissioner has hitherto been responsible, are taken up by the Government, what is to happen?

  1409
  Another question which is of material interest on the North-East coast is whether the South Tees area is to be cut off from the rest of the area. Surely the South Tees area is an important and integral part of the North Eastern industrial area; to cut off the Cleveland iron industry and all the industrial work that goes on in the South Tees from the rest of the North Eastern area would be a grave mistake.
  Then, although it is not directly concerned with the location of industry, I hope that the matter to which I am going to refer will be pardoned by the Committee. I want to draw attention to transference of industry. The White Paper seems to imply that there is to be a transference of industry as a normal process and as part and parcel of the Government's scheme. The taking away of people from their homes to work in other parts of the country, or because it is desired to develop industrially some particular area which has not been sufficiently developed before has been our experience in the North of England. Although, undoubtedly, it was necessary in the bad times that a certain amount of the population should drift away or be transferred to other parts of the country, it is not a practice which should be encouraged. Wherever you go in England one of the principal assets of our national system is the love of the people for their own parts of the country and I do not think that transference is likely to be popular or, indeed, politically possible. I hope, therefore, that a policy of moving great bodies of the population from one part of the country to another just to suit the economic conditions may be carefully reconsidered; that the Government will be careful to bear in mind the habits and inclinations of the people and be cautious in any action they may take.
  We shall I think in the North, as elsewhere in the country, be fully employed until some years after the war. Industrialists in the North, both employers and employed, are now sitting down together and trying to devise plans for the future development of the industries of the North. That is a very hopeful sign. We shall be all right, let us say, for a few years while reconstruction and renovation are being carried on throughout the country; after that, our industrial future depends—as the White Paper truly says—upon the revival of our foreign trade. In future we must depend upon our
  1410
  foreign trade even more largely than we did in the past and we must be prepared to be faced with competition. Therefore it is essential that we should get going as soon as possible and that our people should realise that we cannot have social security of any sort, unless first we can assure full employment for the people. If we can all work together with that object in view, forgetting for the moment our particular political persuasions whatever they may be—
  Mr. George Griffiths: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman do that?
  Sir C. Headlam: I am always endeavouring to do so; no man can do more than try. I have tried for 25 years of political life and I believe I have been more successful than most people, but that is by the way. We are now facing the real problem of the future, the revival of our industries and the successful negotiating of the period ahead. I welcome, therefore, the Government's White Paper and the speech made by the President of the Board of Trade to-day. I only hope that he and his successors will have the energy and courage to stand up to his task and that he will bear in mind, as a Member for a North Eastern Division himself, what we have suffered in the past and see to it that we do not suffer in the same way again.
  Mr. Kirby: Like the previous speaker I welcome this White Paper. On the other hand, I feel very doubtful whether we shall ever get a Government that will enforce the principles enunciated in it. It is quite true to say, I think, that the attention of all the various Government Departments at present is turned in the direction indicated in the Paper, but we have to remember that in the course of time the war will come to an end, the Coalition Government will cease to exist, and we shall, no doubt, revert to party Government. I can well understand that the vested interests on the other side of the Committee will make their presence felt here in such a way that it will be very difficult for any Government to force location of industry in the manner we should like to see it done. I am encouraged in that view by what was said by the right hon. Gentleman in his opening remarks, that industry was in fact already located, and, speaking on behalf

  1411
  of the Government, he would expect that the industrialists, in setting up new factories or bringing into being new industries, would expect the owners of these businesses to do this, that, or the other. I am satisfied myself that it is no good expecting people engaged in private enterprise, in free competition, to go exactly where the nation requires that their industry should go. They will only go where it pays them to go.
  That brings me to the point mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member for North Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Sir C. Headlam) in regard to fetching industries to the people, where they are required. We find that in some places such as the Everton Division of Liverpool, which I represent, the local authority, being wide awake to the full implications of unemployment, and its effect upon the rates, have used every encouragement to induce employers of labour to bring their factories and industries to Merseyside. They have even supplied them with buildings at special rates and easy payments, and with special rating arrangements so that they have not felt the burden too heavily. In spite of all that, the industrialists who were invited to take an interest in Merseyside always came to the conclusion that our volume of unemployment was so heavy, the rates for the maintenance of the body of unemployed and the poor generally so high, that it was not a paying proposition to come. It seems to me that if the Government really intend to put into effect the principles embodied in this White Paper, it will be no good inviting industrialists to come to Merseyside or any formerly depressed area; they will have to be told they must go there and carry on their job in the interests of the nation as a whole.
  I should like to remind the Committee of some of the things that happened before the war in the depressed areas. I have no doubt many hon. Members on both sides of the Committee will refer to their particular areas, and I will refer to Liverpool. In Liverpool I think it is true to say we had the largest single body of unemployment of any part of Great Britain in one solid block. For 10, 12, or 14 years before the war we had anything from 60,000 to 80,000 registered unemployed. During that period we always had in receipt of public assistance some-
  1412
  where between 80,000 and 100,000 persons.
  Mr. Denville: What was the percentage of unemployed in Liverpool?
  Mr. Kirby: It varied between 29 and 30 per cent. and, during that time, in the Birmingham area and some other areas it was about 6 per cent.
  Sir G. Gibson: Was the figure of unemployment in Liverpool affected to any considerable extent by the movement of passenger liners from Liverpool to Southampton?
  Mr. Kirby: Yes, that was so. I could give a long list of reasons why the volume of unemployment in Liverpool was so heavy and that was one of them—when it was decided to take a great portion of the passenger traffic of the Atlantic from Liverpool to Southampton. There were many others. In that connection perhaps I ought to say that in Liverpool we have had no great diversity of employment, so far as the spread-over of industries was concerned. We were mainly dependent upon our shipping, for both import and export trade, and with that was a small volume of passenger traffic. Arising from the shipping activity we had an extremely flourishing and large warehousing business, and general activities in regard to distribution which provided a good deal of employment in railway and road transport. In addition, we were the cotton market of the world. I would like to remind the President of the Board of Trade that the Liverpool Cotton Exchange, which has palatial offices, has been closed, and that there are now only one man and a boy there. So far as can be judged it seems that that situation will continue; that the control of cotton will continue after the war with the result that our Cotton Exchange will no longer employ many thousands of people.
  This great volume of unemployment not only led to an increase in rates in respect of direct employment, but meant that people were badly fed, clothed and housed because the Corporation, in the main, were unable to look upon unemployed people, receiving public assistance, as suitable tenants. All this led to poor health and low morale, to a great increase in crime, especially in housebreaking and stealing, and an extremely high rate of

  1413
  juvenile delinquency. It was quite common in my division, where about half the people were unemployed, to learn of boys, whom I had met on leaving school, ultimately being married while receiving public assistance. They were in that state from the time they left school for about 10 years, until the war came and they were called up for the Services, where they finally found themselves to be real men, receiving a man's income. That sort of thing cannot be allowed to go on.
  We must have direction in the location of industry done with a firm hand. For the reasons I have given, we cannot afford to leave it to private enterprise to handle the matter voluntarily. If we go on like we have done in the past then it is not worth while coming to this House to talk about the problem. The White Paper has been framed in the right lines. I want to stress the fact that we who were in the Distressed Areas before the war, and who are looking to brighter and a happier state of affairs in the future, expect the Government not merely to print White Papers, but sincerely and honestly to implement them, and carry them into actual effect as soon as possible.
  Mr. Furness: The President of the Board of Trade began his speech by making a little play with the fact that, before the war, it was hon. Members opposite who were interested in this question of the location of industry, and that, on the occasion of the Debate on the Address, it was hon. Members on this side. I think he was probably wrong in both cases. Members of all parties who have been associated with Special Areas, have always pressed for strong measures in regard to the direction and location of industry. That is something which goes back many years. However, I have really risen to say how glad I am that, at last, proposals of this kind have been made. So far as I have been able, in a humble way, to do so I have always urged this policy upon the Government. I have always regarded the direction and the location of industry as being the only policy that could really tackle the problem of the Distressed, Special, or Development Areas—call them what you will. These areas, through no fault of their own or of anybody in them, have not been capable of providing, in recent years, the necessary volume of employment for the people who live in them.
  1414
  As I read the White Paper, I found it a melancholy thought that it seems to take a war to drive Governments into taking effective action in these matters. It is a terrible thing that for so many years we had a great volume of unemployment in the country. In the Special Areas, there was a standing army of unemployed; the same people were out of work year after year, and we had not the wit, drive or energy to tackle the problem.
  The President of the Board of Trade, who is not slow in chiding other Members, said that it was in 1942 that, under the lead of the Minister of Production, the turning-point was reached and that industries were then put in places where the people were, rather than in places to which they could be directed. Surely it is a melancholy thought that that change was not made until so late in the war as 1942. I do not want to plead to-day on behalf of the people in my own part of the world, or speak about the terrible time they went through in the years before the war, because they have no need to plead for justice or gratitude. There is one sentence in the White Paper which, I think, should be corrected. On page 13 it says:
  "The Special Areas are not at present depressed, and experience during the war has shown that production there can be as efficient as in other parts of the country."
  There should never have been any doubt on that point. After all, in the shipbuilding industry alone 25 trades at least are engaged, skilled and highly technical trades. The people who can do work of that kind do not have to demonstrate their fitness to do other kinds of work. These people are not skilled labourers; they are people who have a long tradition, and in many cases a family tradition, of highly technical skill and training. The one fear of all the people who are working in the shipyards to-day is that when the war is over they will return to their previous state of unemployment. They say, "We are willing to do our best now, but do not let the Government forget us when the war is over." It may not be in our hands to keep up our shipbuilding at its present level, but if we cannot do that then we must provide alternative employment for the workers in the yards. We have tried other remedies without much success; now we are to try the remedy of saying that there shall be control over the

  1415
  places to which industry shall go, that so far as we can ensure it industry will go to the places where people are waiting, ready and willing, to receive it.
  It is very short-sighted to imagine that this question is a matter which concerns only the Special Areas. It concerns everybody in the country, because there is no human activity which can be carried out without the use of land. If you use land for one purpose you prevent it from being used for another. Therefore, dwellers in the most picturesque parts of the country are concerned with the location of industry, just as much as those in the places to which industry is going. I consider, as every other Member must consider, that the White Paper is, as it were, an invitation to do business. By itself it can do nothing. It has to be carried into definite legislative action. Even when that is done it will be administration, the making of the actual decisions, which will count. I am glad that this matter has been put under the Board of Trade. Some people are always wanting a new Ministry, but when you create a new Ministry to deal with a special problem, you soon find that it impinges on the work of another Ministry. The right hon. Gentleman's Department has a great and high-sounding title. It has great knowledge on these matters, and I am glad that it is to expand itself, and take this question of the location of industry under its wing. I have sometimes criticised the Government about this matter and it is only right that I should now express my gratitude that, at last, there is, at least, the promise of action. We confidently expect that that promise will be fulfilled very shortly by being translated into definite action.
  Mr. Norman Bower: There are one or two observations I should like to make about this vitally important subject. It seems to me that the need for the planning of the location of industry has became really urgent only in comparatively recent years. Up to 1914, or thereabouts, industry did, on the whole, go to the places where it ought to have gone, both from the point of view of industry itself and of the national interest. It would, therefore, be criminal folly to allow the vast amount of national capital thereby created to run to waste by allowing the old industrial areas to decay while
  1416
  new industries are allowed to wander all over the country at will.
  Secondly, I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that, whatever may have been the case in the past, this has now certainly become a question on which all parties are more or less in agreement. It seems to me that this problem emphasises the fact that the relationship, which should exist between the activities of the State and those of private enterprise, are really quite easy to define, and should be easy to agree upon, inasmuch as there is nothing contradictory about them. They are, rather, complementary to one another. As I see it, the actual executive function of running industry should be carried on for the most part by private enterprise. Whatever our political views on that subject may be, everyone would agree that, at any rate, that executive function is likely to be carried on, for the most part, by private enterprise for some considerable time to come, but the State must make itself responsible for an overall national plan. It must make itself responsible for deciding where industry is to be carried on, and to a considerable extent under what conditions it is to be carried on. I cannot agree with the hon. Member for Everton (Mr. Kirby). It seems to me that, if industry is to be run by private enterprise at all, it is impossible for the State to dictate to it exactly where it is to go. There may be many good reasons why a particular industrialist does not wish to go to a particular area, and you must permit people a certain amount of freedom of choice, as to where they are going to build their new factories.
  Mr. Kirby: That was exactly my point, that we should never get industry located where it is needed unless there was some force behind the Government's proposals in regard to it.
  Mr. Bower: I am merely suggesting that you cannot apply that force. If industry is to be run by private enterprise, as for the most part it must be for a considerable number of years—because not even the Labour Party are proposing to nationalise every industry and factory immediately on coming into power—you cannot dictate to every individual industrialist exactly where he will put every new factory. All you can do is offer inducements to people to go to the right place.
  Mr. Woodburn: The hon. Member says we can offer inducements. On the other side, is it not possible to impose a certain number of restraints?
  Mr. Bower: I was coming to that. I was dealing with the positive side and how far you can dictate where an industry is to go, and, in addition to inducements, have an authority responsible for planning the location of industry, which will make it its business to collect all relevant economic data and information and place them at the disposal of all industrialists. If, as a result, that authority enjoys the confidence of industry, it is unlikely that any intelligent and enlightened industrialist or business man—and there are quite a number of them about to-day—would be inclined to disregard that advice. I entirely agree with the hon. Member who interrupted me that, when you come to the negative aspect, of how far you can impose restrictions, you can and must definitely dictate to industries where they are not to go and, if they are not prepared to listen to the advice given them, an absolute prohibition can and must be imposed.
  It seems to me that this policy of the location of industry is fundamental to the policy of food, work and homes, and I am very glad to see that that has been so handsomely recognised in the White Paper on Employment Policy. It has taken the Government a long time to make up their minds on this subject but, at any rate, they now seem to have accepted the main principles of the Barlow Report and they have swallowed it, hook, line and sinker. If the location of industry is unscientific, it means that the efficiency of industry will be less than it otherwise would be. If that be so, it is going to be difficult for us to export as much as we require to export, in order to be able to import the food that we require. Secondly, if there is insufficient diversification, and a lack of balance between industries in any area, if any area becomes too dependent on one or two, and too specialised, you will, again, have the same old problem of Special Areas and pools of long-term unemployment with which we are so well acquainted. Thirdly, until the question of the location of industry has been decided, it is impossible to know where to build the houses for the people to live in, because there must be
  1418
  some kind of planned relationship between where people work and where they live.
  I agree with what my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Sir C. Headlam) said about the transference of population and I am very glad, as I understand the White Paper, that the Government say they do, not propose to indulge in wholesale transference of population. One of the great evils of the present day is that people are being compelled to move about much too much. If you want to give people an anchorage and the feeling of stability and security which it is essential they should have, it is vitally important that industry should be brought to the people and not the people to the industry except, as the White Paper says, in one or two small and isolated cases.
  Another disadvantage of the rapid unplanned development and growth of industrial areas is that it brings in its train equally unplanned development of residential areas, which grow up around the industrial areas, and you get huge dormitories, with no kind of planning, and no facilities for social and recreational activities. There is a conspicuous example of that, in my constituency, at Greenford, where you have a community of some 80,000 people which has been called into unplanned existence by the phenomenal growth of industry in the outer Metropolis. That sort of growth militates against the development of any kind of civic spirit and, consequently, against the attainment of what we all desire to see, an intelligent and educated democracy. I am very glad that the Government have now recognised, as I think all parties recognise, that this is a problem which cannot be left to solve itself. I am glad the Government have decided to tackle it in earnest and I think the general measure of agreement which the Debate has so far revealed shows that there is a growing realisation that we are still moving steadily away from the laissez faire conception of economics, and in the direction of a more orderly and consciously planned organisation of our national assets.
  Mr. Kirkwood: I want to thank the President of the Board of Trade for giving us this opportunity of discussing this very serious question at what I consider an opportune moment. I want to make a plea on behalf of my

  1419
  native land, though not with a view to any antagonism towards any other part of Britain, because I believe the British race within the last 100 years has been the greatest humanising force the world has ever seen. I say that, in order that I may not be misrepresented, as I have been many times all over Britain. The reason is that I speak for engineers all over Britain. Sir Walter Scott put into the mouth of an Englishman in "Marmion," the lines:
  "Breathes there the man with soul so dead,
  Who never to himself hath said,
  'This is my own, my native land'?"
  To-day we are dealing with work and not with the beauties of my native land, though it has a record which will at least compare favourably with the best parts of the British Isles. This is an engineering age, and engineering had its inception in my native land. John Ruskin said that Lowland Scotland was the cradle of this great engineering age. It was in Scotland that James Watt produced his separate condenser which made the steam engine of commercial value and which made this great engineering age possible. What happened to us after the last war? With all our great record in producing men and women to build up the British Empire, more so than any other part of Britain, the Highlands of my native land have been left derelict, and bonny Scotland is being depopulated. After the last war, after we had built the finest ships that ever sailed the Seven Seas, the place was left in wrack and ruin. There was no work and nothing to do. I stood up in the House of Commons and appealed for work. I saw men at that time, my own kith and kin, who would not go to the labour exchange and who considered it a disgrace to do so. I have since seen those men glad to go to the labour exchange, and I have seen men of my race reduced to the necessity of going to take public relief. That is what the Government of that day reduced my race to, a hardy intelligent race whose sires the Romans could never deface. But they were defaced then. As the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) reminds me, it was private enterprise that did it. The robber barons seized our land and they still have the land.
  At that time when we were appealing for work and for ships I tried to point out to the best of my humble ability that,
  1420
  unless we had ships, we would lose the British Empire, because of the world-wide nature of the Empire. The then Secretary of State for Scotland, who is now Secretary of State for Air, said that shipbuilding and engineering were finished. I said in reply, and the House stood by me, that if shipbuilding and engineering were finished, the British Empire was finished, and that I did not believe it. Who are the folk for whom I am appealing? What is their record? We built the finest ships that sailed the seas. I had to fight all parties in this House in order to get the "Queen Mary" built. Where would we have been to-day if we had not had the "Queen Mary" and the "Queen Elizabeth?" All the great liners have been built on the Clyde, and yet individuals try to create an atmosphere all over the British Empire—and they are at it yet—belittling the Scottish workmen and workwomen and talking about the "Red Clyde" which, on the least pretext, was ready to lay down tools and stop work. That is untrue. We have had no major stoppages of work on the Clyde since the war began. The representatives of the Ministry of Labour on the Front Bench will support me, in saying that.
  "Facts are chiels that winna' ding,
  An' downa' be disputed."
  When we appealed in this House at the beginning of hostilities for factories to be built in Scotland we got no support. The powers behind the Government at that time were determined to centralise industry, particularly in the Midlands of England. They then tore people from my native land, and tore the lassies away and brought them into England. What do the employers and managers now say about those girls? That no finer workers ever came into the factories and that they cannot get enough of them.
  We hear a lot of talk about the Scottish workmen and women being difficult to handle. Of course they are difficult to handle. As the Committee knows, I am difficult to handle myself; but it is that very difficulty, that independent spirit, that will crush Hitler and company. That is what Hitler and company are up against at the moment, and not only they, but any set of individuals who try to crush down the ever-rising urge in the workers to be free. I could give innumerable instances of English owners and employers who have praised Scottish workmen and women, but I will quote one or two names.

  1421
  There was a noted shipbuilder on the Thames whose firm is now on the Clyde. The head of the firm is Sir Harold Yarrow, and he tells me that no finer workmen in the world, and none more amenable to reason, are to be found than his workers on the Clyde and in my constituency. An English firm put down and supervised an aircraft factory in Scotland. An Englishman is in charge. [Interruption.] All over England it is Scotsmen who are in charge of factories. We have produced the finest aeroplanes in the Air Force today. We had difficulties for a time because everything was new, but the management tell me that, properly handled, as far as being reasonable is concerned, the Scotsmen are as good as Englishmen, and that for adaptability and excellence of work we in Scotland excel those in the English factories.
  I am saying all this to try to disabuse the minds of individuals who may not desire to set up factories in my native land. They can be assured of every facility in order to achieve success. I believe that Scottish workers, both men and women, are the finest raw material in the world. I hope that the House will deal more kindly with Scotland in the future than it has done in the past. Think of the tragedy of all these factories being erected in England and the workers in Scotland being brought down to them. We want all these workers back home in their native land. There are no braver fighters and no more patriotic race on earth than my race, and they expect when the war is over to get a fair crack of the whip. We do not ask any special concessions from anyone. We are prepared to stand on our merits and we are prepared to take
  "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune."
  We remember the conditions that appertained after the last war. Our people dread a return to them. They know the bitter experience they passed through then. I have done all I can to keep them from going on the street, even to the extent of making enemies, but I was never afraid to make an enemy when I thought I was in the right. My people know what happened after the last war, and they are terrified that the same fate will befall them after this war. We have, however, had no guarantee from the Government that those conditions will not be repeated. I want that guarantee and I will not be satisfied till I get it. I want a guarantee
  1422
  that, there will be no poverty and no starvation because I do not believe there will be any scarcity after the war.
  I believe that we can make the period after the war an age of abundance, of super-abundance. If the same spirit is abroad after the war, that has existed during the war, in order to win the war—if that same spirit could permeate the whole of Britain to win peace and plenty, we can accomplish it. That is what I honestly believe, and I appeal again to the Committee to let it go forth to-day that we Members of Parliament are banding ourselves together to win peace and plenty, just as we banded ourselves together to abolish Nazism. That would be a great thing. Our people are waiting to get a lead. It is the Government's duty to give that lead.
  Mr. Austin Hopkinson: I always think it well, in discussions in this House, to get back occasionally to the subject under discussion, and I venture, with all diffidence, to suggest that we have been wandering to some little extent, during the last 20 minutes or so. The subject under discussion is whether the Government know better than people themselves what people want. There are two political principles; one is Liberalism, and the other Socialism—or you can call it Nazism or Communism because they are all the same. The Liberal supposition is that men and women know best what they want. We call that idea laissez faire, and we say it is entirely out of date, that Government officials know very much better what people want than people know themselves, and the proposals of the Government, as outlined by the President of the Board of Trade earlier to-day, show clearly how far we have slipped back from what used to be the opinion of the vast bulk of the people of this country. Possibly, if only they could make their will felt that would prove to be their opinion to-day. That is the one thing that is going to save this country from the totalitarian State which is being erected by the present Government. Every day we get a little closer to the position existing in Germany, the position existing in Italy, and the position existing in Russia, and adopt one after another the principles of the totalitarian States. I think historians will say, if we go on as we are going with our present policy, that the enemy, even if he is

  1423
  defeated in the field, will have won the war because he will have forced us to adopt all those principles of his against which we are supposed to be fighting.
  Nor are we likely to succeed with such a policy. Dr. Schacht, a person of some prominence in Germany, was taken back into favour in the early part of 1940, and he remarked to a neutral in the spring of that year:
  "Germany is going to win in the end. Bit by bit, the so-called democracies will be forced into adopting the totalitarian system which exists in Germany—the State control of every activity of human life. War conditions will push them deeper and deeper into the mire, and at the end of the war they will not be able to get out again, just as Germany cannot. But mark this distinction between Germany and the democracies. Germany will have had the advantage of having practised that system for years and of having gained that experience which the democracies lack. Therefore, the democracies, when they become totalitarian States, will be at a great disadvantage and will go under."
  That was the opinion of one of the cleverest intellects in Germany and I am not sure that he is not right.
  These proposals, as they stand, are based upon the supposition that the State knows better what is good for the individual than the individual knows himself. That may be a perfectly sound and proper basis for the conduct of the Government of this country, but let the people of this country know what is being prepared for them, and, above all, let the Fighting Forces know what is being prepared for them.
  Mr. Gallacher: The theory is that the State can organise the resources of the country better than a series of individuals working against one another. That theory has been proved in the crisis of the war. Does the hon. Member suggest that the State should have no part in running the war?
  Mr. Hopkinson: That cannot possibly be true in the present war, so long as Germany and Russia are on opposite sides because the two systems are exactly the same. Supposing Germany beats Russia, does that prove that the totalitarian system of Germany is something better than exactly the same system which exists in Russia, or, if Russia beats Germany, that her system is better than Germany's? That does not give you any useful information at all because, as
  1424
  both sides are based on exactly the same principles, there is nothing to show which one is the better.
  Now let us get down to the practical part. [Interruption.] In considering these questions, despite the jeers from above the Gangway, surely it is only reasonable, first of all, to look at the principle of what we are doing and then see how that principle works out in practice. I venture to say that if the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) reads his speech and mine in HANSARD to-morrow, he will agree with me that my remarks probably contain a little more daylight than his do. Forty years ago I had to "locate" an industry. I was perfectly free to go anywhere in the country to set up my industry. And I think hon. Members above the Gangway, if they had been in a similar position, would have done what I did. My market was the collieries of Great Britain. I did the very thing that other Members would have done. I took a map of Great Britain and drew in the outline of all the coalfields. Then I made a calculation of the centre of gravity of the coalfields and thus found the most suitable spot from the point of view of my markets. On examining that spot, I found it was close to my birth place, a place I was very fond of. I knew the people and to some extent I think my family is favourably regarded there. In those days of local banking, if a young man was starting in business without any money, it was very desirable that he should start in his own district, because the bank there would not ask him for a lot of collateral security which he had not got. All they asked was whose son he was, and if the answer was all right, they said: "Give him a thousand pounds; he'll probably make good." That was a very good reason for starting up in one's own district. The area which I chose had, moreover, excellent transport facilities. Two main lines happened to cross there and made a junction where all the express trains stopped. It was an ideal situation for the industry.
  The President of the Board of Trade would never have allowed that. It was one of those areas where unemployment in my own industry was not at all bad, because it was the best position for that industry to be located. It was where many generations of skilled engineers

  1425
  had been brought up. Engineering works had naturally collected around that spot. For that is the way in which industry locates itself. If the Board of Trade had come to me and said: "This is a very good scheme of yours, but we think your engineering works for producing coalmining machinery had better be located in Cornwall," would they have made themselves responsible for seeing that I did not go into bankruptcy, owing to my works being placed in the wrong situation?
  Take another case. We have heard from the President of the Board of Trade about trading estates. Some years ago, owing to the extreme depression of the collieries in Durham, a great scheme was set up called the Team Valley Trading Estate where new workshops were established with every possible facility—at whose expense? Mine, and that of other industrialists in this country. One of the applicants for one of these new works happened to be the agent for a firm of German makers of the kind of machinery that I was selling. For many years he had been selling German machinery of this type in this country. When he saw these beautiful new works to be obtained at uneconomic prices, and with a hidden subsidy underlying them, he took some, to the great delight of the Government of the day. They said: "Here is a man who has taken one of our beautiful new works at the Team Valley estate in Durham's depressed area. He has put into employment 100 men." I suggested at that time in this House that he had, at the same time, put out of employment exactly 100 of my men. He was in competition with me, and all that the Government had done, by their marvellous expenditure of public money and of energy, had been to put 100 men out of employment in Lancashire, and put 100 men into employment in Durham. There is not a Member of this House who does not know that this is the only possible effect that can be produced by Government action in such matters.
  I respect the character rather than the intellect of hon. Members above the Gangway who sincerely think that there will be a Utopia if Government offices manage industry. How they can continue to hold that opinion, after having had 4½ years' experience of it, I cannot understand. After all, hon. Members above the Gang-
  1426
  way know the public conduct of industry has been carried on for a long time without the profit-motive and on the basis of losing something like £2,500,000,000 per annum from its operations. As a commercial concern, the Government trading has not been a very great success. I think I have succeeded in bringing the Committee back to the consideration of the points which we are really discussing. The first point is—is the principle of Government interference in the placing of industries theoretically sound; secondly, how would it work out in practice? The flap-doodle and cant, which constitute what the Government call policy, is in this case of the location of industry, as one might have expected from its authorship, a perfect epitome.
  Sir George Schuster: The hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) has brought us back to earth, and I feel that some of the practical examples which he gave in his speech were of great value and deserve the attention of hon. Members. At the same time I entirely disagree with the first part of his speech. I speak as a whole-hearted supporter of the general policy which is embodied in the White Paper on employment. That policy involves the idea that you shall have Government direction working together with free enterprise. I fully recognise the difficulties in working out such a policy but I believe that those are the lines on which we have to proceed. If, therefore, I say anything to-day which shows doubt about what has been said for the Government to-day, I want to make it clear that it is not because I disagree with the lines of this White-Paper.
  I consider it unfortunate that we are discussing this matter to-day before we have had a general discussion on the Government's employment policy. It is in fact not realistic to discuss the location of industry until we have considered what is to be the nature of British industry. I may be told that we know its nature and indeed we were told by the President of the Board of Trade to-day that a great part of British industry has already been located. But to be told that is not good enough. I hope that is not the Government's view. We stand on the threshold of one of the greatest periods in technological and scientific development that the world has ever seen. We must keep our place in that development and see that the

  1427
  natural resources of this country are used in new ways, to keep our place in the march of the world. We cannot afford to consider the structure of British industry as fixed, so I should have liked to have heard a great deal more about the Government's view as to what are to be the main foundations of that structure before we discuss the location of industries. What, for example, is to be our programme for the utilisation of our coal resources, for the development of the iron and steel industries, for transport, and so forth?
  Mr. Owen Evans: Does the hon. Member mean the Government's programme, or the programme of industry itself?
  Sir G. Schuster: I mean what is to be the British programme. And that I hope to see developed between the Government and industry—because I believe that we have to bring in the organising power of the community, working with and evoking the willing co-operation of all the skill that is available in private enterprise. Without that I do not think we shall achieve our best in this country. I said I would be very brief. I want to make only three points. That is the first one.
  My second point is this: I agree it is a sensible, it is even an obvious, idea that no industrial district should be dependent on one single form of outlet—with all its eggs in one basket. But I do hope that that sensible idea will not be interpreted in what I regard as foolish ways. Take South Wales as an illustration. I do not think that it would be a sensible interpretation, if artificial encouragement should be given to force upon South Wales the manufacture of lace or vacuum cleaners, or lipstick or fancy leather goods, or other light industries of such kinds, which already have their natural homes. What then does a sensible interpretation mean? It means that we should seek out what are the great natural sources of strength of South Wales, and we should make the most of those natural resources, and we should build upon the coal resources of South Wales a great centre of power stations, a great chemical industry, a great electrometallurgical industry and so on. I venture to submit to the Committee that
  1428
  you can, in a district like South Wales, build up on its own natural foundations, a varied industry which will be proof against all the chances and changes of fortune, and be a much surer basis of prosperity than any attempt to add the frills of a few light industries, which will be merely robbing Peter to pay Paul—taking something from Walsall and putting it down in Swansea. That, I say, is no solution.
  Mr. A. Hopkinson: Before the hon. Member leaves South Wales may I put this point? We have already been told by the Government that in order to encourage the coal industry of South Wales we are going to put up a Severn barrage, with a gigantic power scheme, right on the edge of South Wales itself.
  Sir G. Schuster: I hope the hon. Member will allow me to make my own speech and not the Government's. I wish to make my third point, which is, that I do hope that the Government, and I believe, contrary to my hon. Friend, the Government with the sources of information at their disposal can take views which no private individual can take—
  Mr. Gallacher: On a point of Order. Has an hon. Member who has just made his speech, the right to walk about the Committee talking to this one and that one, and trying to interrupt another hon. Member who is making a speech?
  Mr. A. Hopkinson: I submit for your Ruling, Sir Adam Maitland, that a Member has a perfect right, having made his speech, to walk about and sit down anywhere he likes and, if he wishes, converse with other Members.
  Mr. Leslie Boyce: Is it not in the best tradition of this House that a Member should show ordinary courtesy and consideration to another Member?
  The Temporary Chairman (Sir Adam Maitland): I think it is understood that so long as a Member does not interfere unduly with the Debate, he has perfect liberty to do as he likes.
  Sir G. Schuster: These interruptions make me feel, if I may use the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood), that my eloquence is suffering
  "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune."

  1429
  But I do not want to make an eloquent speech. I wish to conclude as quickly as possible.
  My third point is that I hope that the Government in considering their programme and policy will take account of the Position of the country as a whole. And here I should like to pick up the point made by the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson). We must guard against offering artificial inducements which will merely have the result of taking an industry from its natural home to areas where it will be fostered by artificial encouragement. I did not intend to talk unduly about my own constituency, but I may be allowed to mention it as an illustration. Take a town like Walsall, which I represent. Fortunately, it has not been badly blitzed; fortunately, it never suffered as part of one of the Special Areas or Depressed Areas. But it is a very important centre, and I want to ensure that it is remembered. Now to-day I see signs of all kinds of artificial encouragement being prepared in other areas. The President of the Board of Trade told us to-day of the number of new factories that are being put up and that he intends to have used for peace purposes. I understand, for example, that some very large new buildings are being put up for the reconditioning of clothing in various centres and that these are being specially designed so as to be suitable for developing as trading estates after the war.
  I ask myself, if, after the war, we find that priority is to be given to what were formerly Depressed Areas, and that priority is to be given to badly blitzed towns, if these new inducements are to be offered in other parts of the country, what is to happen to the ordinary, I might almost say the humdrum, districts of industrial England? Are they to find that all their people will be drawn away from them? If that is the result, I submit that the Government will not have achieved anything which is of benefit to the country as a whole. What I am asking then is that that point of view should be considered, and that in giving our attention to those things which have excited attention and popular imagination in the past, we should not forget the vast volume of ordinary business which has gone on in this country and which must be continued.
  1430
  I come to my final word. I have gained the impression in all this discussion that we have been saying to ourselves, "Look at what happened between the two wars. Let us avoid the repetition of such mistakes." Of course, we want to avoid those mistakes. But after this war, our vision must not be limited to looking backward on the past, merely thinking how we are to overcome those depressions in those areas which, incidentally, were due to very special causes, the loss for special reasons of export markets, and not to ordinary trade fluctuations. Rather must we cast our vision forward into the conditions of the new world, in which, as I said at the beginning, a whole new era of scientifical and technological advance is dawning, and in which this country has terrific tasks to accomplish. Of these not the least is somehow or other to achieve, as the Government admit, a 5o per cent. increase in the volume of our exports. If we do not take those things into account, if we do not fight our new war, if I might use that phrase, to make a success of our civilisation, after this real war is over, by methods and with conceptions different from anything we have conceived of in the past, then I think our country will be doomed to failure. I can see in this White Paper something to inspire a new hope—the hope that the Government are going to have the courage to be pioneers on a new course. But to be of real value they must convert their general ideas to practical plans as soon as possible.
  Lieut.-Commander Hutchison.: This has been a very interesting, and at times lively, Debate. I am glad of the opportunity to take part in it because it is one which, as the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) has said, has particular interest for us in Scotland. Before dealing with points affecting Scotland, I would like to refer to some of the general remarks which were made by the President of the Board of Trade in opening the Debate. I am sorry that he is not here, but I hope that my right hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will convey this point to him. I fear that the right hon. Gentleman is not up to date with the doctrine in which Members on this side of the Committee believe. I would like to commend to him the very able Report on the Future of British Industry,

  1431
  produced by the Conservative Party Committee presided over by my hon. Friend the Member for West Lewisham (Mr. Brooke), paragraph 97 of which begins as follows:
  "In accordance with the Reports of the Barlow Commission and the Scott Committee, we consider that a practical measure of control over the location of new industrial undertakings in Britain is desirable as a permanent feature of the post-war world."
  That, I think, should demonstrate quite clearly that we in the Unionist Party are no believers in the policy of laissez faire, and that we never were.
  Mr. MacLaren: What does the hon. and gallant Member mean by laissez faire?
  Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: My hon. Friend the Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson), I thought, demonstrated that there were two schools of thought, one of laissez faire, or unrestricted private enterprise, and one of complete State control. But, as in most matters, there is a third course, the one believed in by the Unionist Party, who take up a position between these two extremes, which is in accordance with our national customs and traditions. One other point, of a general nature, which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned was the fact that the Government of the day, in future, will require certain powers for the direction of industry. One must admit that there must be such powers in the hands of the State, but it is very important not to proceed in matters of this description with the mailed fist, but rather to proceed in a spirit of reasonableness. People in industry are only too anxious to be helpful to the Government of the clay, whatever its complexion may be, and it would be very unfortunate if it went forth that it was the intention of the Government to browbeat, or to interfere unduly with, the business community. The ordinary business man is anxious to do his best for the country, and he will respond in a very reasonable and helpful spirit if the Government will only meet him. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) put the case for Scotland with an eloquence which I, as a mere native of the East of Scotland, cannot attempt to follow.
  Mr. MacLaren: Edinburgh is not a part of Scotland, anyhow.
  Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: Edinburgh is a very important part of Scotland. Scotland, in industrial matters, has had a very chequered history, because, for a very long time, we have been dependent on the heavy industries, coal, iron and steel, shipbuilding, and so on, and these industries are very much bound up with our export trade, and subject to all the fluctuations that have taken place in world trade. They were particularly affected by the serious slump in our export trade in the years before the war. The White Paper on Unemployment Policy, very rightly, lays great stress on the necessity for our export trade being maintained, and, indeed, largely increased, but, as I understand that the White Paper is to be discussed in the very near future, I will not pursue that point now, beyond making the one remark that we in Scotland—and I think that this applies to the North East Coast and other places too—are all too conscious of the disadvantages of being dependent for our livelihood on any one group of industries, which may be subject to fluctuations in the international trade position. Therefore, I think the right hon. Gentleman was right in laying great stress on paragraph 26 of the White Paper, which deals with the necessity for developing new factories in those particular areas where there is a need for further diversification, and it is those areas, which have been dependent upon the export industries, which are in the greatest need of such new development. Scotland is pre-eminently a member of that group. I hope that the Government will act upon this principle when legislation is drafted.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: Are we to understand that the hon. and gallant Member is of the opinion that in Scotland also the heavy industries are played out, and that there is no more scope in them for development? What exactly is the Conservative view on that matter?
  Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: I do not quite follow the hon. Member. I am heartily in favour of diversification of industries, because where a group of industries entirely dependent upon one form of trade, like exports, is concentrated in one area and that group is brought to a temporary standstill by a slump in trade there will be poverty and suffering in that area. There should be some light industries mingled with the heavy industries.
  Mr. Kirkwood: Just as the Welsh want something else with their coal mines.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: The Welsh case is not a Tory case at all, so do not confuse it with a Tory speech.
  Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: I want to say a word about the development of industries in that part of Scotland from which I come. I do not want to take up time with what might seem a parochial matter, but my right hon. Friend said that new factories will be erected only where there is a surplus population to be employed. That seems to be taking a rather narrow view. I should have thought that other things should be considered, such as geological, geographical and transport considerations. I mention this point about the South East of Scotland particularly, because I understand that the coalfields in Lanark are in some danger of becoming played out in the not too distant future, whereas in the valley of the Esk there are large supplies of coal of very good quality, a continuation of the seam originating in Fife and passing under the Forth. It seems to me that when we are considering the development of industry, it is a very cardinal point that we should have our new industries somewhere near a good source of fuel. I would also point out, on behalf of the South Eastern area of Scotland, that we enjoy very good port facilities in the old-established and historic port of Leith, the management of which is very progressive and has schemes in hand for extensions and improvements, and that also we have a quite good secondary port in the smaller harbour of Granton, which is efficient and highly organised and of which increased use could be made after the war.
  The President of the Board of Trade has referred to the question of surplus employable populations. Just as in other parts of Scotland, one of our troubles during this war has been that large numbers of people have had to be sent from Edinburgh to the Midlands of England and elsewhere, to staff factories. This has led to a certain amount of discontent locally. It does seem to me to be proved beyond all doubt that we have in the south-eastern area of Scotland a surplus labour force of high quality, and I hope that note will be taken of this point when this question of the location of industry is being further considered. We in Scot-
  1434
  land are people of independent spirit and we are individualists, and we are not just sitting back and waiting for the Government to do something for us. We have many active industrialists and public men in Scotland who are working on the problems of the future of industry, especially that body established by the Secretary of State, the Scottish Council of Industry, and all we are asking from the Government is not to hand out to us anything which should not be ours as of right or in any way to give us preferential treatment, but merely to try to hold the balance fairly which, I am afraid, has not been held so fairly in the past, owing to circumstances certainly outwith our control and perhaps also outwith that of the Government. We hope that there will be a better era in future, and we trust that the Government will play fair with us.
  Mr. Owen Evans: I think the Government may be well satisfied with the reception given to the White Paper, speaking generally, except in very narrow quarters, but we realise on this side of the Committee that it deals with the location of industry on the assumption of the continuation, at any rate for the near future and for some years to come, of what is generally referred to as private enterprise. We cannot deal with it on any other footing except by understanding that industry is to continue as it is now being conducted. How it is to be conducted in 10 or 20 years' time I do not know, but we must examine this document on the understanding that it is to be conducted from the private enterprise point of view.
  Mr. Kirkwood: Tell us the difference between Liberals and Tories.
  Mr. Evans: There is a great deal of difference. My hon. Friend below me, who is extremely individualist, spoke of the industry which he started, I suppose about 40 years ago, in the place where he was living and where his family was known, and, where, obviously, he was geographically well placed for his market. I do not think that, even under this White Paper, if he started a new industry he would be called upon to do more than tell the Government that he proposed to establish an industry and build a factory, and place before the Government the considerations which justified him in putting it in a certain part of the country. I grant that this White Paper does not, in

  1435
  itself, increase the total amount of employment in the country, except in so far as it might increase the employment in a locality, and it may be that even the establishment of a new industry in another part of the country would employ precisely the same number of men as in a depressed area. All that will be done, as I understand it, is that an effort will be made to even out employment throughout the country so that we shall have no areas like South Wales between the two wars, where depression and a tremendous amount of unemployment prevailed.
  I make no apology for following the hon. Member for Abertillery (Mr. Daggar) in referring to the case of South Wales, and I agree that our memories, like the memory of the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood), may go back to the period between the two wars, and we know what happened then and of the enormous depression which prevailed. There were sad signs of that depression everywhere, and the consequences of it were seen in the people and were painful to witness. We remember the Welsh hymn-singers, cap in hand, in the streets of London, and passers-by, like the Levites, with their heads in the air, self-righteous, self-satisfied, living here in the lap of luxury, remarking, "What terrible people; why do they not turn to and earn their living?" The effect on the cultural life of Wales was something terrible. The South Wales collier and his family are keen on education, and I could give innumerable examples of scholars who came from humble homes, and of people who are fond of music, drama and art. There were the choirs of the great colleges of music, whom it was pathetic to see endeavouring to sing their way to joy in spite of adversity. We saw them with stark, staring hunger in their faces, their clothes worn out, suffering from a rationing of food and clothing due to compelling circumstances and not a Government scheme. Those were the conditions of that time and we do not want to see them return to South Wales.
  There were attempts, however, even at that time to bring new industries to South Wales. I happened to be connected with one of them. New and progressive industries came to these areas, and the men were prosperously employed, but they grieved for their less fortunate country-
  1436
  men in the immediate vicinity. The tendency was not to improve either the temper of the men or to increase efficiency. I am glad to note that the Government have accepted responsibility in the words of the White Paper, and that it
  "intends to check the development of localised unemployment in particular industries and areas."
  I trust that this is something more than a pious intention of the Government, that it means a determined resolution to act, and is not a mere flourish in the air. We want, in this particular case, a close connection between honesty of writing and speaking and vigour of action. How are the Government proposing to do it in the White Paper? I think it is right to give priority to basic industries—to coal and steel—and the White Paper says that the Government must help them towards the highest efficiency and to secure overseas markets. Those are the two things that are required for South Wales and its coal industry. The export trade has been going down for years—from 30,000,000 tons in 1929 to only 14,500,000 tons in 1938 of coal exported. The country should not forget that even 14,500,000 tons of coal is a substantial contribution to the export trade that we need to build up after the war. It is essential, we have been told, in order to pay for our imports of raw materials and food that we should increase the export trade by 50 per cent. There is a chance for the Government to assist the coal industry in South Wales to regain its export trade to the Continent and elsewhere. In the White Paper my right hon. Friend says that their aim is to help those industries towards the highest efficiency and to secure overseas markets, and I should like to know how the Government propose to implement that statement. How do they propose to help the basic industries in South Wales? May I ask for a little more information as to what the Government propose to do in order to carry out the declaration that they aim at securing higher efficiency in the coal trade in South Wales and to secure overseas markets? Coal is a wasting asset and that fact should not be forgotten. Where an area is dependent upon a wasting asset, there may have to be either a drastic removal of population or the old industry must be replaced by some new one. Which of the two alternatives is

  1437
  the policy of the Government? I refer again to the White Paper, paragraph 29 on page 13, where it says:
  "But where a large industrial population is involved, the Government are not prepared either to compel its transfer to another area or to leave it to prolonged unemployment or demoralisation."
  Do the Government contemplate that in certain areas there may be a complete stoppage of industry owing to the exhaustion of wasting assets, and a considerable population to be dealt with, housing, amenities and services? How do the Government intend to deal with a problem of that kind if it should arise, and it is bound to arise in certain areas within the next few years. I do not believe that the Government could bring compulsion to bear upon industrialists to put their factories in a certain place. I rather agree with the declaration of Sir Malcolm Stewart, who was at that time Commissioner for the Special Area in South Wales, that economic considerations must in the main determine the location of industry. I accept that as a broad principle. In the main, I do not think that economic considerations have determined the location of industry in the past. Economic considerations alone certainly have not determined it. If one looks at the history of the industrial development of this country, one can only come to the conclusion that, in the bulk of cases, it happened to be mere chance. My hon. Friend has described the foundation of his own industry. He spoke of his old friendship with his banker, said the place was his home. Therefore, one of the most important reasons why he established his industry near Manchester lay in his local associations. That is often the reason. Personal preference and other reasons are the primary reasons; from the industrial point of view there is often no marked advantage in the London area over the South Wales area.
  The onus should be put on industrialists to satisfy the Government that the site proposed by the Government would jeopardise the success of an industry, though we should not follow reliance on the Government too far. The Government ought to meet these industrialists, call them into counsel together, consult them, and draw their attention to the existence of specially designed factories in the country.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: Was not that precisely what happened previously?
  Mr. Evans: Not to the extent provided for in the White Paper. As regards South Wales, we should try to enlist the active support of leading industrialists who have established works in South Wales during the present war. It is a great advantage that we have had these new industries established there. The men in charge of them, the managers, the engineers and technicians have got into touch with the men and women working there and know their qualities. It is up to the people of South Wales, the municipalities and all the leading men in South Wales, to try to retain the industries that have been established there. I conclude by using the words of Rupert Brooke, who, speaking of young men fighting in the war, said they:
  "gave up the years to be
  Of work and joy, and that unhoped serene,
  That men call age."
  We are to-day, in our work, our thoughts and our prayers as said last night by His Majesty the King—in close fellowship with hundreds of thousands of young men who are performing prodigious deeds of valour on the Continent. Many of them will not return, but let us do our best to see that those who do return find their work their joy and joy in their work.
  Colonel Greenwell: I gladly avail myself of the invitation extended to the Committee by your predecessor in the Chair, Mr. Williams, and endeavour to make my remarks as short as possible. But I do not feel that I need apologise to the Committee because I have followed the habit contracted by my progenitors in getting myself born and brought up and having my being in one of those parts of the country euphemistically known as Depressed, Special or Development Areas.
  Now, "What's in a name?" I will just say that if the Development Areas are ever again to become Depressed Areas, the rose will certainly smell no more fragrant for that reversion. Coming, therefore, from such an area I have good cause to welcome the provisions in the White Paper dealing with the location of industry as have all those with whom I am associated and those whom I represent. I rather imagine that I see something of the hand of the Minister without Portfolio in the concoction

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  of this document, and he knows full well, being one of my predecessors in the constituency which I have the honour to represent, what being in a Depressed Area can be like. We have had in my constituency one of the highest rates of unemployment in the country—at one time running up to 46 per cent.
  While, perhaps, the White Paper starts a little platitudinously and may end rather sententiously, it is like a sandwich in that it has a good deal of sound food in the middle. I am pleased to notice that it lays primary stress on the necessity for looking after the progress of the heavy industries in the future. I think the President of the Board of Trade may take to heart the fact, that he gives twice who gives quickly, and if he can give us some of the details of the way in which he proposes to look after heavy industry in future, it will be very much welcomed and appreciated in the parts of the country where that type of industry has flourished in the past.
  I do not propose to give the Committee any historical review of the development of British industry, but it might be profitable to consider briefly one or two of the underlying facts which have made a small and in the main agricultural community become one the greatest industrial nations in the world. In the first place, the industrial revolution was due to the ingenuity of the people and, secondly, to the industry of the people; and the third, and perhaps inherently the most important, reason was that in this country we have abundant measures of coal and ironstone. Although we do not use the ironstone of this country to the extent we did and in ordinary times import most of it, coal is still a primary factor in the location of industry. I have no direct connection with the coal industry, but I have lived all my life in one of our great coalmining areas. Naturally I know intimately many workers and managers and owners engaged in that industry, and I realise the difficulties they have and what an arduous and unpleasant life it can be. I wish the mining community nothing but good, and the highest possible standards they can attain, but in the interests of the whole of the industry of the country, it must be borne in mind that coal has to sell at an economic price.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: What does that mean?
  Colonel Greenwell: If the hon. Member will allow me to develop my remarks for a moment, perhaps he will hear. By an economic price I mean this. Liquid fuel is most certainly much handier to use, it is easier to transport and to burn in the furnaces of industry, and if coal can only be sold against it by putting a prohibitive tariff on imported oil or by subsidising coal, you are introducing an uneconomic state of affairs which cannot exist for ever. If it ever became possible to use oil fuel, instead of coal, in industry in Britain, it might change the whole lay-out of heavy industry in the country, and that must be borne in mind.
  It is not unnatural that there are parts of the White Paper open to criticism, and there are some which seem to me to be contradictory. In the main, however, I am perfectly sure it will be widely welcomed up and down the country, and I hope its provisions will be studied and read by the widest possible number of people engaged in industry, workers as well as managers, because people should appreciate what the Government propose to do. In redressing the balance of industry in the future in those areas which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland (Mr. Furness) has stressed, only wars seem able to lift out of the slough of depression, everyone will hope that the necessity of leavening heavy industries with lighter industries will be effected by making the utmost use of the primary products of these areas. My hon. Friend the Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) pointed out the other day very succinctly how important it was to use the primary products of an area in helping it out. Where we have a great coal industry, the best method of leavening up heavy industries is not, in my opinion, to introduce, say, clothing factories, although they may be very useful to the people there. It has already been pointed out that that is only robbing Peter to pay Paul. But, if you can develop the nylon industry, one of the coming new industries, it should be developed, not in London or Birmingham, but where the coal comes from. There we have a real solution of the problem.
  I would suggest, too, for the attention of the President that, where timber is

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  imported in large quantities industries relying on plywood, wood pulp and light joinery industries might be set up. There was a time in the past when development of this kind would certainly have been helpful. Where heavy steel is manufactured, I tentatively suggest—knowing little about the steel industry although there is one of the largest steel mills in my constituency—that it might be possible to develop a lighter side to it where press work and so on might be encouraged. As far as the shipbuilding industry is concerned—and I am engaged in it myself, so I know a little about it—I would point out that there is such a diversity of trades employed in the building of a ship that almost any industry of a light nature set up in a shipbuilding area will inevitably be assured of plenty of skilled labour of the kind it seeks.
  In reading the White Paper carefully one appreciates that a certain amount of control and licensing will be necessary in the proper direction of industry after the war. It is quite obvious that the President will be unable to carry out his task without such control, but I beseech him to make that system of licensing, before factories can be developed or new ones built, as easy to work as possible and unlike what many of us have to suffer to-day. I will give, as briefly as possible, a small instance which came to my notice the other day. A firm, wanting to replace part of their buildings in a department of their plant which suffered damage from air attack, had to apply to the Admiralty for a recommendation before they could go to the Ministry of Works for a licence to put up the necessary building. The Admiralty official in London had to pass this on to an Admiralty official in Bath, and he, in turn, wanted information from a local man, who went to the firm and said, "Do you really want this?" It is going round in a vicious circle if you like, when it takes weeks and weeks to get away with that sort of thing. We shall have to get a move on in post-war development, and we shall not do it by having a licensing system which has to go from department to department and takes weeks to move.
  Paragraphs 26 (a) and 61 made me think quite a lot and I would like to know what the Minister who will reply to this Debate has to say about them. There are certain provisions in this Paper in regard to the
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  development of existing factories, and the laying down of new ones, which are rather vague and may play rather into the hands of big business in that it says that where serious disadvantage would arise from further industrial development in an area, the Minister could preclude development from taking place there. Who is to advise on this? Although I do not dispute the necessity for large firms in certain branches of industry, in the main it has been the moderate-sized firms which have always been the most efficient, because their managements have had intimate contact with, and control over, their workpeople in the day-to-day problems of the business. These firms have developed to the great industrial benefit of the country, and I trust that nothing the President may do in the future will be inimical to the interest of such firms.
  Lieut.-Colonel Dower: Surely the Minister will have power to restrict the extension of businesses?
  Colonel Greenwell: I was quoting from the White Paper which says:
  "Serious disadvantage would arise from further industrial development,"
  and I wanted to know who would advise to that effect. Obviously, the President must get advice from somewhere as to whether such a state of things is likely to arise. If this advice is pressed on him by large industrial concerns, then difficulty will arise.
  Some of the provisions of the White Paper deal with the possibility of the transference of labour from one part of the country to another. One of the proposals is that labour must be prepared to become more mobile in future, whereas in another part of the White Paper it suggests that the Government will not, under any conditions, transfer large sections of the people. That would hardly be possible, but it is difficult to know quite what is intended in the matter of the transfer of personnel. In the area I come from, the North-East coast—and I am speaking for this area rather than from the point of view of my own constituency—we consider, with justification I think, that we are an energetic and virile stock We have produced an exceptional degree of skill in our workers and in peace or war we give excellent service to the State. We have produced first-class fighting men, as

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  the 50th Division has shown in this war and in the last, and we have done much to keep the country going by means of the heavy industries centred in our area.
  No section of the population is more devoted to its own area than are the people in the part of the country from which I come. We give nothing away to Scotland in that respect. Our towns may be smoky and have other disadvantages, but we think that ours is a good part of the world and that it would be a disservice to the State if there were to be any attempts to get people to leave an area where facilities and communications exist to serve industry. We have roads, railways, housing, drainage and cheap power there, and we think it is far better to take the jobs to the workers than the workers to the jobs. But that does not mean that it might not be hi the best interests of all to have some redistribution within such areas. Over 2,500,000 people suffered in our area during the period of the last depression, and I imagine that with Clydeside and South Wales we must account for at least a quarter of the industrial population of the country. We have the services in these areas, and we want to see them put to the best use in the future. I want to ask the President to consider seriously the effect on the location of industry of the rates that are levied and of rateable values—
  The Deputy-Chairman (Mr. Charles Williams): We have had a very wide Debate, but rateable values are certainly outside the Debate.
  Colonel Greenwell: With great respect I suggest to you, Mr. Williams, that in the past the rates levied in an area were one of the most potent factors in the location of industry.
  The Deputy-Chairman: That may well be, but it does not come into this Debate. That is my Ruling.
  Colonel Greenwell: I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Williams, and I will pass on to refer to freight rates for carrying goods from one part of the country to another. This is a point of importance in connection with the future location of industry, and a matter which might well be taken into account. I will not raise other controversial points which may come under your ban, Mr. Williams, because
  1444
  they may be better raised in another Debate on employment policy only. I would like to say, in closing, that everybody on this side of the Committee will have been delighted to notice the reference in the White Paper to the necessity for the continuation of personal enterprise in industry. The proposals of the White Paper can only be carried out and the aim achieved by the co-operation of all—the State, local authorities, employers and employed. A well thought out plan, if it is resolutely implemented by such cooperation, will be readily and enthusiastically welcomed. This country will be happy when it is content and will, I hope, become contented when employment ceases to be spasmodic and becomes regular. We are all eager to help along the road to that happy state of affairs and I am sure we all wish the President good will in carrying out his task.
  Mr. W. A. Robinson: I am glad to welcome the White Paper, because I know the difficulties which have faced the Government. While one could debate the White Paper page by page, or even item by item, the fact remains that here is an attempt to give the country a considered policy in regard to employment. I want to call attention to a remarkable thing that happened in my division a few years ago. I had to handle the case myself. The Minister approached me and noted the fact that, because of distress after the war, a new company was to be promoted, with the best German brains behind it, who knew the trade—there is no secret about it; it is glass—from A to Z. There exist in Threadneedle Street big people who subsidise new companies, and I could name some of the people responsible. This company was finding its capital in Threadneedle Street. They came to see me, and I did my best to thwart the efforts of these financial gangsters and I succeeded in stopping the exploitation of this new company, with German brains and Threadneedle Street finance. But I was told by my people in St. Helens to do no more, because the Government had insisted on stopping this adventure and intended to instal glass producing plant in Wales, and I was called off the hunt.
  When all is said and done, the firm at St. Helens had no need to go to Wales to produce glass. Their plant is the best in the world. It is not a new industry and

  1445
  it is not improving output. If you are going to provide financial assistance, for Heaven's sake do not go to firms like this in St. Helens and say, "You must move part of your work." It is not the right thing to do. On the whole I consider that the Government are doing their best. It is an onerous job and a very sorry job. I say to the President, "Beware of Threadneedle Street. Beware of the Gold Standard fellows. They are after your blood. They will transfer industry for you and they will take control. They are the men you want to watch. Do not bother about me. I do not count. They are the people who count." I look on the White Paper as a laudable attempt to reach a solution of the problem.
  Sir Peter Bennett: I feel very much with my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall (Sir G. Schuster), that it would have been easier to discuss this question if we had had a Debate on the main White Paper and knew the Government solution of some of the other problems but, as we are taking this by itself, I should like to say that there is in it a considerable amount which I think will be helpful. I was one of those who gave evidence before the Barlow Commission some years ago and I agree with the President's summing up of the various majority and minority Reports, which agrees with the general view of the evidence which I heard at the time. He says that the Government's policy is to confer with industrialists before they start new enterprises and that the Government will steer industry into areas which need assistance, and today they have powers which they did not have in the years between the wars. They now have definite powers which will make more effective the expressions of good will which we used to get before the war, which did not take us very far. It will be possible to put a ban on congested areas instead of asking people to be good boys and keep away.
  It seems to me that we are beginning to feel our way to a solution of the problem. I do not know that trading estates, though they make a contribution, can be said to solve it at all. There is one thing I am glad not to hear and that is any suggestion that we ought to have satellite towns. My idea is that we have enough towns now. We do not want to take more of the rural districts and estab-
  1446
  lish satellite towns. I should be glad if the Ministry of Town and Country Planning would bear in mind that there are enough towns. The idea is that there are areas where there is a greater amount of employment than in others and that, as we expand, we should expand to areas where there is labour available, and not create more towns. That will only make the problem worse. The President promised that discretion should be used. I want to urge that he should bear that in mind very seriously because, in stating his views, I think he tended rather to over-simplify the problem. It is difficult, when you are stating a case and are thoroughly satisfied with your arguments, not to tend to do that, but it is not quite as simple as appears on the surface. You can have your houses and your factories and your plant but there is always the question what you are going to make in the factories.
  There is a common idea that industry is one of the forces in the world, that it exists and that people are going to cut the channels, and turn the taps on and off, and direct it. That is not a correct view of industry. Industry is a force which is created by personal endeavour every day, and if you leave it alone it will die. Therefore, a considerable amount of discretion is needed. I have had something to do with creating industries from the stage of the white-washed wall, and I know that it is a laborious process. If we look at the history of some of the mighty concerns of to-day, we find that they started in a very small way and were built up a brick at a time. Levers, for instance, started in a grocer's shop.
  The way in which industry is built up has to be studied in order to understand what industry really is. The reason I mention that is because in analysing the problem I am not satisfied that it is sufficient simply to re-arrange existing industries and to put a little more industry in other places. We have to see whether an industry which is dying at one end will fit up with industries which are starting at the other end. You cannot always be certain which will be the winners, but that is a risk which we industrialists take and for which we are paid. We have had considerable experience and we know more of what can be done by transfer than we did before, but

  1447
  we have also found out some of the difficulties. For instance, the tempo is different in different parts of the country. It is nothing to be ashamed of. I could not put my factory workers on the land and expect them to make successful agricultural workers in a few months. The tempo of the industry is different, and it takes generations to make a good agricultural worker. You cannot put industries into an area that has a certain tempo and expect the workers in that area to jump to the new tempo straight away.
  Mr. R. J. Taylor: Is it not a fact that war factories have been established in many places where there were no factories before the war, and that the workpeople who had no experience earned the greatest praise for the work they have done?
  Sir P. Bennett: That is agreed, but if you went into the costs, which we have not done in war-time, you would find that in some of these cases the cost of producton was higher in the new areas than in the old. We have been grateful for what has been done by the people who have turned from one type of work to another, but I am certain that the Supply Ministries would say that very often they have had to pay more for an article produced in one district than for a similar article produced in another. They have been willing to do it because they have had to have the double supplies. In industry run on commercial lines, however, the manufacturer will not be willing to pay extra because an article is produced in a different district, for there can be only one price in one market unless there is extra quality to justify it. We have been grateful for the assistance we have had from the new factories, but we would not say that it has been as economical, looked at from a commercial point of view, as if the production had remained in the original areas. It would be a slight on our own workpeople to say it had been, for it takes years to build up the skill which we see in the older factories. That is why I say that discretion is needed and that this thing must be done carefully.
  A great deal can be done, but it is not so easy 'as many people think, because industry is a delicate plant which grows by careful watering and attention. I
  1448
  admit that it is possible to take some big industries and have economical production in different districts, but when you come to some of the fabricated industries it is a difficult problem. We are often asked why the motor car industry is concentrated in one or two areas. In the early days, motor cars were manufactured all over the country, but, one by one, various concerns died out, because it was found that the most economical production was in certain areas. The industry settled down in those areas, and has remained there.
  Mr. Silverman: Surely it was not the only reason.
  Sir P. Bennett: I was in the industry. Economics always finds its own level, and the motor car industry remained in certain areas because not only was the skill of the workpeople there, but they were surrounded by ancillary industries. A manufacturer with whom I was discussing the question last night said that the background was essential and that when he had gone to other parts of the country he had found it difficult to transfer the background and the experience of the work-people. He also said that surrounding him were a large number of ancillary industries, which made it so much easier for him to run his industry there than in another district where those industries did not exist.
  I share the hope expressed by the President of the Board of Trade when he suggested that we must improve the transport between certain parts of the country. It will certainly make a great deal of difference if we can move our material and finished products about more quickly. We should not expect an industry to take the whole of a product and put it in one district; we should see whether we cannot arrange for certain parts, such as the machine work, to be done in one district, and allow the finishing to be done in the districts where the skill and experience in finishing have been developed. Much as I deplore the maldistribution of industry, there is one thing I should deplore more, and that would be its non-existence and if in our re-arrangements we lost something and found eventually that the country was worse off on the whole.
  Mr. Silkin: Most of the speakers to-day have expressed satisfac-

  1449
  tion with the policy adumbrated by my right hon. Friend. I want to take a different line. If the policy of the Government on the Barlow Report is set out in paragraphs 20–30 of the White Paper on employment policy, I must express profound dissatisfaction. The policy as set out there is a very disappointing result of several years' thought on the Barlow Report. My right hon. Friend, in setting out the Government policy on the location of industry, said that while he thought you could exercise control over new industry, and over substantial extensions of existing industry, you could do nothing with existing industry, because there it was and you could not do very much about it. To exclude existing industries is to ignore the whole problem. I doubt whether you could achieve any substantial success in the policy of providing industry for the development areas merely by directing new industries to them.
  The real problem after all, as the Barlow Committee discovered unanimously, was the over-developed conurbation in different parts of the country. If the policy of the Government is to leave that situation alone and merely to deal with new industries, they are, in my view, riding for a fall. When my right hon. Friend addressed the Committee I hoped that he was going to enunciate a policy for dealing with the very serious problem which the Barlow Report considered most urgent, of the large conurbations and particularly the London conurbation. No one was more eloquent than my right hon. Friend in the days before the war in deploring, particularly on strategic grounds, the failure to deal with that situation. I have taken the trouble to refresh my memory in regard to a speech which he made in 1936 or 1937, a most excellent speech, with which I agreed much more than I did with his speech to-day. Then he was really directing his mind to the problem, while to-day he seemed to regard it as relatively unimportant. I do not know how many new industries he expects will be created after the war, but I doubt whether the quantity will be sufficient to make a substantial difference to the Development Areas. Unless we can get a substantial amount of transfer of the Congested Areas to the Development Areas the whole policy will be a failure.
  I agree with a great deal that was said by the hon. Member for Edgbaston (Sir
  1450
  P. Bennett). I agree that you cannot deal with existing industries in the same way as you can with new industries. You have to deal with them by persuasion, by discussion and possibly by offering assistance to transfer. I agree also that you have to be extremely careful as to the type of industry that you transfer. There is industry with traditions, and if uprooted and put into fresh soil it might not flourish. At the same time, I should like to remind the hon. Member for Edgbaston of an experience which I had, in the course of my investigations for the Select Committee on National Expenditure. We were looking at certain armament factories and comparing their efficiency and costs. One was a private enterprise factory which had been in existence for many years. Another was a Royal Ordnance factory which also had been in existence for many years in an industrial area. The third was a Royal Ordnance factory newly created in Wales. Most of the women in the Welsh factory had been shop assistants or engaged in other forms of labour. If the Minister of Supply were here I think he would bear out what I say, which is that the most efficient of the three was the Welsh factory. It does not in the least follow that by transferring a factory from an established area to a new area, you necessarily lose in efficiency. It depends upon the area and upon the industry. I would like my right hon. Friend to tell the Committee of a policy which would have the effect of de-congesting the congested areas.
  Mr. Dalton: I do not want to take up the time of the Committee, but I would like to tell my hon. Friend, who sits for a constituency which I once had the honour to represent, that if he will read carefully what I said, he will see that it does not bear quite the interpretation which he has put on it. I said that the Government accepted the principle of decongesting the congested areas, but I said that it fell partly within the field of town and country planning.
  Mr. Silkin: I do not want to be unjust to my right hon. Friend, particularly as he is also my predecessor. I thought, however, he was not dealing with this matter as President of the Board of Trade but in order to explain the Government's policy about the location of industry. I felt that he dealt with it, I will not say in a half-hearted way, but in an incom-

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  plete way, and merely to ride off on the subject of the decongesting of congested areas by saying that this is 'a matter for town and country planning—
  Mr. Dalton: Primarily.
  Mr. Silkin: Primarily then—and to leave it at that, struck me as not an adequate method of dealing with the question. Again, I agree very much with the hon. Member for Edgbaston in saying when we come to deal with decongesting, "For goodness' sake do not let us have any more satellite towns, at any rate until there is no other method of dealing with the problem." The satellite town is one degree worse than the congested town. It is a less pleasant place to live in.
  There was another part of my right hon. Friend's speech with which I do not altogether agree, and that was the method of dealing with new industries. As I understood him, he was going to discuss and persuade, and if necessary even use the big stick by the application of the building permit, to get industry to go to certain places. After all, he is not going to have that big stick for long. He may have it for five, six or seven years after the war, but it will not be in his hands indefinitely, and I can imagine a good deal of pressure upon him after the war in this House, particularly if he uses that big stick effectively, to get it taken out of his hands. As my right hon. Friend himself stated, this problem will be with us for a long time. There will come times When a Development Area will no longer be so classified, while other Development Areas will arise. There is no reason to suppose that in the modified and developed system of private enterprise, which we shall enjoy, we are told, for a long time after the war, the condition will not constantly recur of places becoming Development Areas.
  My right hon. Friend will need some more effective power than that of the building licence. Moreover, I doubt very much whether he will find it possible to use the building licence as a means of forcing industry to go to certain areas. The purpose of the building licence is to ensure that priority is given to particular types of building construction. If a factory is needed it might be that the President of the Board of Trade, in his capacity as grantor of a building
  1452
  licence, could say where that factory ought to be built. Therefore I think that my right hon. Friend will have to face the question whether or not, in the last resort, industry is to be required or compelled to go to an area to which it should go in the national interest. After all, my right hon. Friend is only dodging the question. In fact he is getting the same result by another form of compulsion. To pretend that the use of the building licence is not compulsion is, of course, merely closing one's eyes or avoiding the use of an unpleasant word. It is compulsion, and I would not apologise for one moment for requiring new industries to go to areas where it is in the public interest they should go.
  I want to face up to the argument that the civil servant or even the President of the Board of Trade may not be the most suitable person to decide what is the public interest. I would be quite prepared to accept the recommendation of the Barlow Report to set up a Development Committee which could be manned by people of experience both as employers and as employees and people of public experience, who could be trusted to consider the relative merits of any application for the location of a new industry. To understand the problem thoroughly would require a certain amount of research, which I understand is taking place at the present time, by the Board of Trade, to show what kind of industry a particular locality can best serve. I do not altogether agree with the hon. Member for Walsall (Sir G. Schuster) that in Wales you can only have certain special industries connected with the coal industry. Research should be taking place now, and as soot), as possible a Development Committee should be created, with possibly regional committees who would be in closer touch with the needs of their area and could advise the central Development Committee.
  This is a proposal which, as my right hon. Friend knows, is recommended by the Barlow Report, and I think that it would be much more satisfactory to set up a body of that sort than to put the responsibility directly on the President of the Board of Trade, although, of course, he would, in the last resort, have to be answerable for the actions of such a committee. I feel that unless something more

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  is done along the lines I have suggested, the country will be doomed to disappointment; that the Development Areas will not be getting the industries which they need to give them full employment; that they will not get diversified industries; that, in short, matters will not proceed more satisfactorily than before the war. I strongly urge the Government to think again with a view to adopting a more courageous, more drastic and, shall I say, a more revolutionary policy over this matter.
  Lieut.-Colonel Oscar Guest: I wish to preface my few remarks by adding my meed of compliments regarding the White Paper we are discussing. I think it is a most remarkable piece of forward thinking in war-time. I am pleased to see that the Development Areas are to get their meed of priority in regard to planning. I would like to put forward this suggestion for the consideration of the Board of Trade. We have been told by the Ministry of Labour and several other Government Departments that we in these areas should try to help ourselves. In South Wales we have tried to put that into practice, and a very large proportion of the manufacturing industries there have formed themselves into an association with this object in view. We have, I think, the approval and blessing of the Area Board in what we are doing. We asked them to form in South Wales the opposite number in a triangle to tackle such a problem. If management and labour would put forward their local knowledge of a district such as South Wales for the help and assistance of the Government Departments concerned, it might be a solution of the difficulties which we face.
  The Debate to-day has been on the question whether the location of industry will be of increased advantage to the country, and whether the Government taking a more direct hand in industry will have a bad effect or a good effect. As an industrialist I should have thought that the answer lay in the word "efficiency." If we have industry where workers are situated, and if the industry of the country is co-ordinated by means of Government co-ordination, I think that does spell efficiency, I think we shall see greater employment in the country after the war than before. It is a question of the extent to which we can be organised as a country to achieve it. I do feel that
  1454
  these schemes for the location of industry in this White Paper, and the method by which the various areas are to be dealt with, are the right way to deal with the problem. I do not think we shall have to compel either industrialists or workers to go where it is wise to work. I hope that no Government will have to come to those measures in respect of either side in industry. As far as industry in South Wales is concerned more people want to go there than the Government can provide factory space for and that is an interesting indication of whether industrialists are willing to come to a Development Area.
  I would like, in conclusion, to say that the problems we are faced with are rather of a different nature. The question of factory space looms large in our part of the world. The difficulty is to know when we can get factory space, when munition factories will be freed for people to come there, in what order and in what time. Power is another big factor—the question of whether power rates are to be the same in one part of the country as those in another part. We need technical training in the new types of industrial development coming into an area which has been confined more to heavy industry. Above all, we need houses. We want more houses for the workers and we want them built where the factories are and not where factories are not. These are problems we as industrialists find ourselves faced with now in that particular area. If we can have some indication from the Government that what we are doing has their approval, and if we can have co-operation, as in South Wales, I believe a great deal can be done to overcome difficulties in that and other areas. I was glad to see that an area can cease to be a Special Area and become a healthy and ordinary area. If the three parties—the management, the men and the Government—work together I think we shall soon know the Depressed Area no longer.
  Mr. Henry Brooke: I welcome this White Paper and I am delighted that the Minister of Reconstruction has presented to Parliament a practical location of industry policy, which, in my opinion, is long overdue. My interest in this intensely important subject is certainly not of recent origin. If the Minister cared to look up in the Barlow Commission's Report the list of individuals who submitted evidence, he

  1455
  would discover the names of six past or present Members of this House, of whom four were Conservatives; so I hope we shall hear no more of the suggestion that his own party had, until recently, a monopoly of interest in this matter. If this Debate has served no other purpose it has, at least, proved that it is not only Members who represent areas which were hard hit by unemployment who are concerned over the problem with which we are dealing. One hot day recently when I was in an overcrowded London train in the rush hour, it struck me how fantastic it was that, in this modem civilisation, we accept as inevitable that people have to travel to and from their work in the traffic conditions which pervade all the big cities. That is connected with industrial congestion. I have a great deal of sympathy with my neighbour the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin), in the remarks which he made about the Minister's lack of interest in the congestion side of things. The Barlow Commission stated that there should be three objects of national policy. The first was redevelopment, the second was dispersal of industry from over-congested areas, and the third was the attaining of a proper balance of industries. Paragraphs 20 to 20 of the White Paper are concerned almost exclusively with the third of those. The Minister's speech was confined to that.
  The White Paper had to be confined to employment, because that was its subject, but one cannot restrict the importance of location of industry policy entirely within employment terms. One cannot neglect the permission that has hitherto been granted too freely to industry to spread over good, unspoiled agricultural land. It is not only the wicked industrialist, I would remind hon. Members opposite who has tended to do that in the past; it was only two or three years before the war, at the very time when the Ministry of Labour was doing all it could to attract work to the Special Areas, that the Air Ministry proposed to set up an aircraft factory in a place where there was no labour, in beautiful, unspoiled country near Maidenhead. All these matters have to be taken into account if our location of industry policy is to be comprehensive. London has been frequently mentioned to-day as the one and only sinner, but if hon. Members will look at the changes in the
  1456
  figures of insurable population in the years between the two wars, they will find that there was a growth of population in practically every large city. We heard the hon. Member for Abertillery (Mr. Daggar) mentioning the situation in his constituency, up the valleys. No wonder he did so; no one who was there between the two wars will be surprised at it; but all the time while the valleys of South Wales were being denuded of their people, Cardiff and Swansea, believe it or not, were growing. This magnetic tendency of the cities is another evil—at any rate, I think it is an evil—that has to be dealt with if the Government's location of industry policy is to be all-embracing.
  That is why I ask for a complete policy, and not one which looks towards employment only. I agree that we must take measures to secure a better balance of industries throughout all regions of the country, not only for the more obvious cause that otherwise the industrial situation in many areas will be unstable, as it was tragically proved to be between the two wars, but also because, otherwise, any general measures taken by the Government to stimulate industry throughout the country will very likely not stimulate it in the right places. If we can achieve the better balance to which this White Paper looks forward, stimuli applied to the general level of employment and industry may have a roughly similar effect throughout the country, and not only in those areas which are favoured. The paragraphs in the White Paper suggest a three-fold policy. Industrialists will be required to notify their plans for the siting of new factories or extensions.
  I agree with that. Secondly, there is to be some kind of prohibition on new factories or extensions of existing industries in certain overcrowded areas. I agree with that, and, frankly, I could not see the difference that the President of the Board of Trade suggested there was, as regards London, between the intentions of the White Paper and the policy recommended by the Barlow Commission on this point. Perhaps, if there is a difference, it could be explained to us. Thirdly, the positive part of the policy is this phrase, to which the hon. Member for Walsall (Sir G. Schuster) called attention: "To steer new factory development." What exactly does that word "steer"

  1457
  mean? If you are going to steer, you must have two things: you must have a steering instrument, and you must also have a chart. I do not think we have heard enough about the kind of chart by which the steering is to be done. It is essential to have, and to have continuously brought up to date, an intelligent economic survey of the local changes that are going on, Survey and research are the key to this matter. That type of survey work will be fruitless if it is not done competently and objectively. At that stage transient political issues should be kept right in the background.
  That is why I have some regret that the proposals do not include the setting up of what I might call a permanent Industrial Development Commission, though the name does not matter; the Barlow Commission recommended something they called a National Industrial Board. I want an impartial body studying the country, nationally and objectively, that should present to Parliament and the Government the essential facts. I know that hon. Members say that there have been enough reports already, but most of these reports have been documents indicating what has happened in the past. Where we have failed is in neglect of preventive measures against evils that could have been foreseen, and that we ought to have foreseen. The kind I have in mind is that, wherever you have an occupation based upon an extractive industry, there is a wasting asset there, and the mineral will one day be all extracted; sooner or later, you are going to have your special area problem there.
  After that objective survey has been carried out—and I visualise it as a continuing process—then comes the time for the Departments to make up their minds what action should be taken or recommended to Parliament, and there, it seems to me, the Board of Trade is as good an instrument to take the lead as any other. If that survey was properly done, there would be available to industrialists a more accurate picture, a more complete statement of all the considerations that should be prevalent in their minds when choosing sites. Though, on the whole, there have not been many cases of grossly misplaced industries, from the individual point of view, it has not been easy enough in the past for the industrialist, when considering the site
  1458
  for a new factory, to get a complete picture, because it is only the Government which has that picture. To provide that is the sort of service which the Government can render.
  We are relying, I should say, rather too much, when we come to action in the White Paper, on the power of a licensing system. Everyone knows that licensing has got to continue for a time after the war, but I have considerable sympathy with what the hon. Member for Walsall (Sir G. Schuster) was saying when he asked what is to happen to a constituency like his. It is not a development area; it is just an ordinary sort of place. Is it going to be left out of all these special plans and considerations? What strikes me as a practical, permanent method to aim at is that the national body, whatever it is, taking stock of the industrial situation throughout all the regions of the country, will make up its mind that rapid development is required in certain regions in order to create proper industrial balance—little further development, or none at all, in others. That should be translated into terms of industrial zones and of industrial sites in the areas concerned, with the ultimate result that, in each area of the country, there would be sites, not necessarily trading estates, but authorised sites, to which I should like it to be possible for any industrialist to go freely without having to go through the rigmarole of a licensing system which, as the hon. and gallant Member for The Hartlepools (Colonel Greenwell) said, sometimes takes far too long and which, in any case, may impose on the licensing authorities the almost impossible task of deciding whether refusal of a licence will so put up the costs of an industry, because it has to go elsewhere, that it will not be able to compete in export markets. I would like to try a system of authorised sites throughout the country. With that we might manage to build up a freer system of influencing the future location of industry.
  My last word is this. For years and years past, every Minister concerned with defence has had to keep in his mind's eye a map of the world-wide commitments of this nation and Empire. I want to see the production and maintenance of a similar economic map of the problem areas of this country, from which a loca-

  1459
  tion of industry policy could emerge in the same practical way as diplomatic and military policy ought to emerge from our world-wide responsibilities.
  Mr. J. J. Lawson: There was some doubt in the minds of many hon. Members whether this Debate should have been held to-day, in view of the fact that we have the prospect of longer Debates on the White Paper on Employment Policy. I think that those who have heard this Debate will agree that the course of the Debate has shown the extreme necessity of taking these subjects separately, because the Debate has dealt largely with the planning of industry, which is a different matter from the question of full employment. It seems to me that some of the criticisms of the White Paper, in so far as it deals with this subject, are rather well merited when compared with the recommendations of the Barlow Commission, but I want to say, quite frankly, that, even now, I am very pleased that, on the whole, the Government are taking what steps they can to direct industry now, and giving what promises they can, immediately, to direct industry into those parts which are what we call unbalanced.
  I make no apology for that. As a matter of fact—and I wish the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson) had been here, because he spoke about the artificial direction of industry and the damage it would do—the war itself has, actually, for many reasons, increased the lack of balance in industry in those particular areas that suffered before the war. Strangely enough, Scotland and the North, and I think it would be true of Wales, are actually worse off now, for diversified industry, by comparison with the rest of the country, than they were before. Anybody who wants to know how bad that was should read the Barlow Report. I took a lot of pains to read most of the evidence on which this Report was based, and I think that, if full value is not given to that Report, it will turn out to be one of the great tragedies of this country.
  In that Report, you have an inquest on the industrial and commercial life of this country, and it reveals a state of things which was really menacing to the country as a whole. If it had not been for the
  1460
  revelations of this Report, and the apprehensions which led to the Commission, this country was going towards a state of things which would have led, I think myself, to its physical and moral degradation.
  Of course, the authors of the Report draw attention to a good many things. They had to deal with the matter on which the Scott Report is based, for instance. If I may say so, I do not know who wrote the Scott Report, but, for a change, I should like to compliment them on understanding human conditions, on their style, and on their appreciation of those natural surroundings, which play as definite a part in moulding citizenship as even industry itself. But it revealed a very sad state of things indeed. The White Paper uses the word "conurbations." I hope we shall use a fresh word. It is a nasty word and it is not good enough. Let them use an old Yorkshire phrase, in the dialect of some of my friends and, in referring to a place which is not a village, nor a town, nor a city say, as the Yorkshireman says, "It is neither nowt nor summat." It has no social sense. A great city has a social sense. A town has a social sense. I do not know what kind of civilisation there would be if there were many conurbations in Europe.
  The hon. Member for Mossley talked about trying to drive these industries into threatened Depressed Areas by what he called artificial means. I wish as I say he had been here at the moment, but according to the principles he laid down, there would be no factory legislation or anything else. He wants industrialists to go just where they like, and to do what they like, just as industrial leaders took children of six into factories and workshops in the earlier industrial era. Areas in the North of England—and the same applies to Scotland—were declared to be vulnerable areas and because of that fact these light industries were prohibited from going into such areas. Is not that an artificial cause? The Government, however, discovered that they were wrong because of the course the war took, but in the meantime, even after the blitz, the Greater London area was being packed with factories. I wish I could tell the Committee some of the things I have heard from people in those areas which are now packed with factories, on the assumption, apparently, that there would be no further

  1461
  bombing. More factories have been established in Greater London, to say nothing of Coventry and other places, since the blitz in 1941, than there have been established in the North and. in Scotland put together. That is a very serious state of things.
  My right hon. Friend is dealing with the matter direct, but I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) and my hon. Friend the Member for Abertillery (Mr. Daggar) that that is not sufficient. My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade may not be in his office some years hence. The war might end and the Government of the day might forget all about this sort of thing. I am gratified that the Government have at last faced this problem ill a direct way and I do not want to under-value what they have done. There are the proposals of the Commission. They unanimously came to the conclusion that, in view of the nature and urgency of the problem, national action is necessary, and for this purpose a central authority, national in scope and character, is required. They go on to say that the activities of the authorities should be extended beyond the powers of any existing Government Department, and they say that there should be re-development and a lot of things of that description. The case is very strong for seriously considering, if not the shifting of some of these industries from the congestion, at least the closing of some of these factories in congested areas. Industrial planning should have some relation to town and country planning, and even inside some of the Depressed Areas there is need for considering the question of congestion.
  I take the Team Valley as an example. It has (lone very well on the whole, considering: all the circumstances, but I do not want to see it destroyed. It has natural beauties. It has North and South roads and the sea, and is a first-class place. I do not want to see indiscriminate development of that area without regard to its natural beauties. I want to see natural beauty preserved, and, above all, I want to see consideration given to the planning of communities so that they shall have a social sense rather than that there should be an indiscriminate state of things in which you have a feeling that nobody has any relation to anybody.
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  I want the Government to consider the establishment of a separate authority. The Board of Trade, I understand from the White Paper, is to have prior consideration in this matter and is to be the effective executive for the purpose of directing industry. That is good as far as it goes, but the Board of Trade has so many departments, and it is very wide in its range. I believe that this is too big a job for the Board of Trade. It may be able to do something in the meantime, during the war, but if the matter is to be considered from the point of view of legislation, ultimately there will be the question of the setting-up of a fresh Department. I think this is a subject which needs a separate Department, and not merely because of the growth of industry. I do not think there is any difficulty in directing industry into these areas. I think that some industries are special to particular areas but there is no particular reason why the engineering industry generally need be in a particular place and I do not think, on the whole, it will be difficult to direct it in accordance with the industrial planning which the Government have in mind.
  One thing is good to know. Some of the so-called reasons for industry going to certain parts in the last few years will not operate in the future, and I advise the Board of Trade—though I need not tell my right hon. Friend to—to watch these so-called reasons. For instance, why could Sir Malcolm Stewart hardly get a reply from thousands of employers when he sent out notices asking whether they would go to the Special Areas? They did not put the replies down on paper, but those who were responsible for leadership in Special Areas will tell you what some of those people said. Some of the reasons why they came to London were because their wives wanted to be next door to Oxford Street, because some wanted good golf courses, or because they wanted to be at Wimbledon. They came for the same reason that individuals have always given—as has been pointed out in this Report—and anybody who knows anything about human history knows that it is true. They came to suit their own convenience, and that is not good for any nation. For my own part, I hope the Government will not be altogether satisfied by the tentative proposals as they are set out in the White Paper. I hope,

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  with all due respect to many great industrial leaders, that they are going to take industry generally by the scruff of the neck and say, "You have to go where we want you to go, for the benefit and the convenience of this community which has served you well."
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Captain Waterhouse): I have been interested to see that the first note I made to-day on the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Abertillery (Mr. Daggar) was that there were too many Departments concerned in this particular matter. Therefore, I was a little surprised, as well as interested, to find that my hon. Friend opposite, speaking from the same Box, almost ended a most interesting speech by saying that he would like another authority or, possibly, even a new Department to deal with this particular matter. It just shows what a very healthy difference of opinion one can have on a subject as wide and as important as this.
  The Debate has been an extremely interesting and instructive one. It will be quite impossible for me to deal with more than a comparatively few of the points, which have been raised in a very large number of speeches, but I can assure the hon. Members who have spoken, that the various points they have raised will be considered. I would remind the Committee that this is a White Paper, and that the purpose of a White Paper is to make people think, and express their thoughts aloud. So, we are grateful for the expressions of opinion that have been given us to-day. It has been suggested from several quarters that it would have been better if the general Debate on the White Paper had preceded this particular Debate on location. I do not know whether that is so, or not, but, at any rate, it is not the Government who are to blame, because the Committee well knows that is a matter entirely in the hands of the House. Supply Days, and the subjects discussed on them, are decided, by ancient custom, by a certain rota of the parties, and in this case I think it was the Labour Party who, very properly, suggested that we should have a discussion on the location of industry to-day. There have been certain points raised, as there must be, which are outside the particular limit of the location. For example, one
  1464
  or two hon. Members spoke of the movement of population, and I was asked a question on the measures which would be taken for the rehabilitation of the heavy industries, which is mentioned in a particular section of the White Paper, it is true, but is really a matter which falls outside this precise subject.
  It is a happy thing to me and to my right hon. Friend that in this Debate we have left that purely restrictive war era, which none of us have much enjoyed at the Board of Trade and many of those in industry have not liked at all—but an era which the country has borne with extreme patience. It has been necessary to cabin and confine industry in every direction, to pile orders, regulations, directions one on top of another, and the way industry has responded to our requests is the best indication of their whole-hearted determination to follow this Government in whatever line they thought proper to bring victory to us at last. We are to-day in an era of scheming and planning. We are determined, when the war is over, to do our utmost to fit this country to live through the difficulties which must arise after five, six or seven years—whatever it may be, by the time we have finished it—of production merely for destructive purposes.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Walsail (Sir G. Schuster) spoke of the great impetus which has been given to invention and to scientific development. That is, happily, one of the good results of almost all major wars—they stir things up and, as a rule, one finds great social and industrial developments after a war. I have no doubt at all that history will repeat itself in this particular case. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Sir C. Headlam) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North-West Camberwell (Lieut.-Colonel Guest), who spoke a few moments ago, both stressed the importance of obtaining the highest industrial efficiency, and said that our duty was to re-equip the nation at home and, more especially, to get our export trade started abroad; unless we can get industry really moving in this country by one means or another, all the plans which we have formed for a better England are of no value at all. That is the formidable task which faces British industry and I agree completely with my hon. Friend the Member for

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  Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson)—who puts things with great clarity, considerable violence and a great deal of humour—and with my hon. Friend the Member for Edgbaston (Sir P. Bennett) when they said that no Government can solve these problems. Their solution must depend in the future as in the past, on the courage, the initiative, the genius, and the skill of every man and woman engaged in British industry. However, it is the responsibility of the Board of trade to do what we can so to till the ground that the seed of industry may prosper after the war.
  In the early stages of industrial development, we had no experience to guide us in the location of industry. We had, obviously, to learn by experience, and during the industrial development of the last century we have learned much. For instance, we have our code of factory laws, our rules for health and sanitation, and now we are taking a step in the same general direction, in the direction of indicating the location of industries in the future. I am not prepared to admit that the set-up of industry over the last century has been bad. Hon. Members have suggested that industries arose in a haphazard fashion; the hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Owen Evans) suggested that economic development in the last century came about by mere chance. I really do not think anyone could possibly support such a theory. To take extreme cases, it is not by mere chance that ships have been built on our seaboards, that steel works have been set up near coalfields, that cotton and wool have been centred in Lancashire and Yorkshire, where there is a humid atmosphere and water power, or that small industries have centred themselves among great populations. They are the effects of economic factors and when we are entering a period of control we have to realise that we are endeavouring to control economic factors, and not merely to control chance arisings of the past century.
  I think the Committee will agree that it would be impossible to attain a general level of prosperity throughout the country. All trades fluctuate from time to time; they all wax and wane over long periods, but we are now endeavouring to take steps to prevent the full weight of these changes falling on comparatively small and restricted areas of the country. I would like to remind the Committee,
  1466
  very briefly, of the general outline of the White Paper before I deal with the various points which have been raised. They are: First, the compulsory notification of all building. That is compulsory and must be done. Second, the grant of building priorities more freely in some areas than others. Third, the retention of munition factories in areas where their presence would be the greatest value. Factory erecting, where necessary, factory premises for prospective tenants. Fifth, placing Government contracts with an eye to the district in which they will be fulfilled. Sixth, adequate facilities for obtaining finance in proper cases and, last, the prohibition of the erection of factories in certain districts under certain conditions. That, I suggest, forms a well-rounded policy, and while it is possible to criticise it in one direction or another, I think the Committee will agree that, considered as a whole, it will prove a useful means of progress.
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Newcastle-on-Tyne asked what would be done about the commitments made by the Special Commissioners before this war. I cannot tell him exactly what the machinery will be, but I can give him the general assurance that these commitments will be worked into the new scheme and not be thrown over and disregarded. As always, in these Debates, Scotland has figured boldly. The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for West Edinburgh (Lieut.-Commander Hutchison), in very different ways, both put very strong pleas for their native land and I can assure them—if any assurance is necessary— that Scotland is not likely to be forgotten, at least so long as they are in the House.
  Mr. Kirkwood: What will be the result of the speeches which have been made today? What will Scotland get out of this Debate? I am all right; I want nothing for myself.
  Captain Waterhouse: Scotland will get the consideration which is her due, and I am sure that the hon. Member will be one of those who will put her due high. Scotland has one of the Depressed Areas. In the past, she has been in grave difficulties and anything that can be done for any part of the British Isles, will be done for Scotland under this policy.
  Mr. Kirkwood: Thank you for so much.
  Captain Waterhouse: My hon. Friend the Member for Mossley, who is not in his place, made a very sweeping attack on the whole of this policy, but I did not feel that his attack was as well-reasoned as many I have heard him make. He asked what was the good of setting up a factory in a depressed area, because if this was done and 100 men were employed, it would mean that another 100 men would be put out of employment in another area, say, Manchester. That argument is completely fallacious. When my hon. Friend first started his factory for producing coal machinery, did he put two or three hundred men out of employment somewhere else? Of course not; he was producing new machines which were in general demand, and by that means was increasing the general prosperity of the country and was tending to increase, not decrease, employment in other parts of the country as a whole.
  Mr. MacLaren: In fairness to the hon. Member I must point out that he observed that the demand must be present, before one started the supply.
  Captain Waterhouse: We are not suggesting that the Government will force people to set up factories. When anyone wants to set up a factory we will ask him to go to a certain place and we can take it for granted that he will not want to set up a factory unless the demand is already there.
  Mr. Kirby: Does the Parliamentary Secretary mean that literally? Will the Government merely ask? Is that to be their only function, or will they press and force?
  Captain Waterhouse: If the hon. Member will look at the White Paper he will see that the word used is "steer." That rather depends on the length of the rudder and how strong is the wind. We certainly intend to do more asking than forcing. Our experience during the war leads us to think that industry will probably respond better to that treatment than to coercive treatment. My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall raised two or three points, one of which was that we must choose industries to fit districts. We will certainly do that. We have taken a good deal of trouble to get the services of busness men in different parts of the
  1468
  country and, when industries suggest themselves for location, their adaptability for any particular district will most carefully be considered. My hon. Friend the Member for Edgbaston asked that we should use great discretion in any use of the ban. I can assure him that discretion will be used. We realise the importance of this innovation in our policy and I am sure my right hon. Friend will not use the ban without taking the fullest advice not only of the Government Department concerned but of all interests which he thinks it proper and useful to consult.
  Sir P. Hannon: Always remembering that discretion is the better part of valour.
  Captain Waterhouse: Remembering all relevant factors. The hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) made some interesting points. I thought he was rather pessimistic. He said he was afraid there were going to be so few new industries after the war that there might be nothing to locate at all.
  Mr. Silkin: The right hon. and gallant gentleman overstates it.
  Captain Waterhouse: I got the impression that that is the tendency the hon. Member fears. If it is true the chances of all the better things that we are hoping for are slender indeed. The hon. Member made another interesting point about satellite towns. He told us how averse he was to them, and I made a special note of that, knowing that he would be speaking with the full weight of his authority as chairman of the Planning Committee of the London County Council, and would be representing their views with accuracy. My hon. Friend the Member for West Lewisham (Mr. Brooke) asked exactly how one can steer industry. He said one needed, first, the instrument and then one needed a chart. The instrument, of course, is that in the White Paper. The chart is a matter of greater difficulty. My hon. Friend asked that a chart should be made out, that an inquiry should take place, and that we should set up a Committee to go into the various needs of industry in various directions. I do not think it necessary to have a separate Committee, but inquiries have been, are being and will be made into these matters in so far as appears to be necessary to disclose the various factors which should be considered.
  Mr. Brooke: Not in the development areas only, I hope.
  Captain Waterhouse: No. The development areas must be first considered, and in those areas more detailed inquiries have been made, but throughout the whole country we have an organisation with an expert in every region, practical business men who know both the industries and the district itself, and it is they who are giving the Board the local advice. At headquarters we are fortunate in having Sir Philip Warter, a man of wide business experience, who has done great service during the war, both at the Ministry of Food and the Board of Trade, and we may be confident that the organisation will work with the diligence for which the Board of Trade by now is so well noted. We have invited industrialists who might be able to set up in any district after the war, to get into touch with us, and we have on our list now, a large variety of possible enterprises—synthetic textiles, building materials, food containers, textile machinery, clothing, radios, batteries, plastics, domestic appliances, toys, motor tyres, hosiery and the like.
  In a few of these cases sites have already been bought. In others options have been taken. In many, surveys are being made by the prospective buyer of sites in the various areas. Our policy is not a coercive policy. We are prepared to use power, when and where necessary, but we believe that we can proceed by a policy of persuasion, and that that will be infinitely better than any policy of coercion. We are confident that the business men of the country are best able to judge the business needs of the country and we feel it to be our bounden duty to render all the help we can to them. After the last war, there were those who said our task was to make a home fit for heroes to live in. After this war I suggest that we should be well satisfied indeed if we could say we have reconstructed a land fit for a gallant people to work in.
  Ordered:
  "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—[Captain McEwen.]
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  ALIMONY PAYMENTS (ENFORCEMENT)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now a djourn."—[Captain McEwen.]
  Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: The subject that I intend to raise is the unsatisfactory procedure for dealing with the collection of arrears of alimony. This unusual and somewhat complicated legal subject is not one which has attracted much public attention, nor is it one, I imagine, that is known to very many Members of the House, but it affects the welfare of a considerable number of married women, and especially those with young children, and I therefore think it ought to be ventilated in the House. In raising this matter I labour under two distinct disadvantages. In the first place, I am not a lawyer and am not, therefore, competent to deal adequately with all the intricacies of the law of husband and wife in England and Scotland. In the second place, it is out of Order to make any suggestions involving legislation on a Motion for the Adjournment. That limits the scope of my argument to some extent, but, subject to these two limitations, I shall endeavour to make out a case to show that the present procedure for dealing with the arrears of alimony is unsatisfactory.
  It being the hour appointed for the interruption of Business, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."[Major Sir James Edmondson.]
  Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: I would ask the Attorney-General, the Lord Advocate and the Under-Secretary for the Home Office to look into this matter with a view to seeing whether something cannot be done to improve the present arrangements. I want in the first place to refer to the existing procedure for the enforcement of the payment of alimony and of arrears thereof. I have had no complaints about the procedure in Scotland, so I need not dwell on that point. I think that is due to the fact that the Scottish law of husband and wife is more clearly defined and less complex than the English law. In England the position is less satisfactory. On 26th April I put a Question on this matter to my right hon.

  1471
  and learned Friend the Attorney-General. It received a certain amount of publicity in one of the Sunday papers, and, rather to my surprise and embarrassment, I received a "fan mail" from ladies all over England who were complaining bitterly of the delays and uncertainties of the procedure for enforcing the payment of alimony. I want to quote one sentence from the Attorney-General's reply:
  "The existing methods of enforcement, including as they do, procedure by judgment summons, have on the whole proved sufficient in England."—[[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th April, 1944; Vol. 399, c. 779.]
  There is a qualification in my right hon. and learned Friend's reply inasmuch as he makes use of the words "on the whole," which seem to show that there is some doubt in his mind as to the efficiency and adequacy of the present practice. I am convinced that there are loopholes for evasion because, at the same time that I got this considerable fan mail from ladies, I got a number of abusive, fluent and mainly anonymous letters from gentlemen who are very much opposed to a change in the law, thereby showing that there are certain guilty consciences.
  However, whatever may be the position in England, the Attorney-General and Lord Advocate will agree, that the real trouble arises in those cases where one of the parties is domiciled in England and the other is located in Scotland. I think that unfortunately there are a large number of such cases. I would add as a rider that the difficulties of dealing with this type of case are accentuated by the fact that in England the system of legal aid for poor persons seems to be less highly developed than it is in Scotland and that the majority of alimony cases seem to concern persons of humble means. With a view to illustrating some of the practical difficulties that arise, I propose to quote, without mentioning names, a case of the mixed type where one of the parties is in England and the other is in Scotland. I have had a great deal of correspondence with various right hon. Gentlemen on the front bench about this matter during the past three years. I will give the history of it very briefly, for the information of the House.
  In this particular case, the parties concerned were separated by a decree of separation in December, 1937, the decree being given in Edinburgh. The husband
  1472
  was ordered to pay the wife alimony of 20S. per week. Some time after the decree was given the husband, who is an engineer by trade, left Scotland and took up work in Manchester where, to the best of my knowledge and belief, he has been in good and steady employment ever since. For reasons into which I do not intend to enter, he fell into arrears with the payment of the alimony. This bore very heavily upon my constituent, a lady who is in poor health and unable to do very much work, and is mainly dependent upon this alimony for a livelihood. In March, 1941, the payment of alimony being very irregular, my constituent found it necessary to take legal action, and she obtained a judgment summons in March, 1941, at the Salford Hundred Court, under which her husband was ordered to pay arrears of 15s. per week.
  However, payment continued to be irregular, and in August, 1941, shortly after I was elected to this House, my constituent came to see me and explained the difficulties which she was experiencing. As a result, I took up the case, and I have been grappling with it ever since and, as hon. Members will see, I have accumulated a pretty fair batch of correspondence, having written to almost every legal authority and organisation in both England and Scotland on the subject, without, I am afraid, having obtained as much success as I had hoped. Well, 1942 passed by with various vicissitudes, payment generally being irregular and my constituent being put in a position of considerable financial difficulty, until, at last, goaded beyond all measure, in April, 1943, she took further action in the same court, obtaining another judgment summons, which gave her an additional payment of 5s., over and above the payments of 20s. and 15s. This order was, however practically speaking, ignored by her husband. Last autumn, in desperation, she applied for a default summons and then came up against more obstacles, about which I feel very strongly.
  The position is that although the home address of my constituent's husband was well known to all the parties concerned, and although the place where he was working was well known to everybody concerned, the papers necessary for the hearing of the case could not be served upon him. The official process server was never able to serve the necessary writs or summonses upon him, with the

  1473
  result that although the case was down for hearing twice, first in January, 1944, and secondly in March, 1944, it had to be cancelled on each occasion, owing to the failure to serve the necessary papers upon the defaulting husband. I had another consultation with my constituent in April of this year, and I decided finally that, as all the channels for obtaining justice appeared to be blocked, the only advice I could give her was that she should go to Manchester herself. I am glad to say that the lady, being a woman of determination and character, so galvanised the authorities there into action that the case was heard on 23rd May, and judgment was obtained for another 10s. per week, in respect of the arrears; but this judgment summons covers only part of the arrears. My constituent has yet to obtain another judgment summons for another part of the arrears. Frankly I can see no end to this litigation, which I consider is highly unsatisfactory. I cannot refrain from pointing out to my right hon. and learned Friend that in Scotland, where arrestment of wages is permitted in cases where a decree for alimony exists, it is possible to arrest the entire wages of a defaulting husband.
  Mr. Kirkwood: Not the entire wages.
  Lieut.-Commander Hutchinson: Yes, for alimony. [Interruption.] There is a little dispute about that. Perhaps I might read a letter I received from the Lord Advocate which says:
  "There is a general provision that only the, excess of wages above 35s. per week can be arrested, but this limitation does not apply where the arrestment proceeds on a decree for aliment, and accordingly the whole of the wages can be arrested for such a decree."
  That is from the highest Law Officer in Scotland. If I may summarise the position I would say that here we have the story of a poor woman who has been put to very great trial of the spirit and mental worry, who suffers from ill health, and has been put to a good deal of expense, which she can ill afford, owing to the inadequate machinery and inefficient operation of the law. It provides my justification for bringing this case to the notice of the House.
  There is one other point. It is not my only reason for bringing it forward. I would not like it to be thought that I was taking a gloomy or pessimistic view of the
  1474
  future, but we all know that war has a very unsettling effect on people. Domestic life has been broken up and disorganised by what has been going on. One of the consequences of war, unfortunately, is that many people enter into hasty and sometimes unwise marriages, which may bring in their train an increase of court cases. I think it is our duty as Members of Parliament to make sure that adequate machinery does exist for dealing with these cases. which, I apprehend, may arise.
  Finally, I am not competent, of course, to suggest remedies, and indeed it would be out of order for me to do so now. But I do make this appeal to my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench—I hope they will not spurn the suggestion—that the Attorney-General, the Lord Advocate and the representatives of the Home Office should get together to see if something cannot be done in two directions, first to improve the existing machinery for enforcing the law, particularly in those cases where one of the parties is in one country and the other in the other country; and, secondly, I ask them to review the state of the law within their respective domains in regard to this subject to see whether further improvement is required.
  Mr. Burke: I would like to say a few words in support of what has already been said on this matter, because I have had a case somewhat similar to the one mentioned. I have had correspondence with the Home Office about it without getting any satisfaction. Briefly the facts are these: A woman in my constituency has an order for 30s. a week. The order is not paid and she goes down to the police station and gets a warrant. The warrant is sent to Birmingham. The people at Birmingham say they cannot find the man and send it back to Burnley with a note that they think he has gone to Durham. This man happens to be working for the Ministry of Home Security, and has to draw his wages from some place every week. They must know where he is. He must report from time to time, but six weeks go by and is owing. She takes out a warrant, but before the warrant is served and the money is paid another eight weeks have gone by, and there is £21 owing. As soon as she gets the first £9, she is still £12 in arrears. She takes out a warrant. That is going on continuously. She is a

  1475
  very decent woman doing her best to bring up her two children, aged 13 and 9. Perhaps I had better read her own words, which may count for more than mine. She says, in a letter:
  "I apply to the law for my rights, but nothing is done. All that is done is that they are helping him to evade his obligations."
  I feel that something should be done, either by speeding up the machinery, so that the police may get in touch with the husband, or, better still, by some method whereby the money can be paid to the woman, perhaps through the public assistance committee, to which she has to go. She has to perform her household duties, and she is not in good health. She has to pay rent of 10s. per week. She is always in debt and she is harassed by the fact that she does not know whether the money is coming or not. That case, I am sure, can be multiplied over and over again. There is a case for an alteration in the machinery, or perhaps in the law itself.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Donald Somervell): I am grateful, and so is my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate, to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for West Edinburgh (Lieut.-Commander Hutchison) for raising this point. I was, of course, familiar with the case which he has raised, and I am in a position to deal with it, I hope, to his satisfaction and that of the House. I had no previous knowledge of the case raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Burke), which deals, I think, with a different point. The real point which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for West Edinburgh has raised is the enforcement in England of orders obtained in Scotland and—although the case which he put did not raise the converse question—the enforcement in Scotland of orders obtained in England; in the first case where the husband has gone to England after the order has been made, and in the second case where the husband has gone to Scotland after the order has been made. The case raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley does not bring up that issue, but raises the general issue of the enforcement of these orders, and possibly some further question about the position of somebody employed under the Minister of Home Security.
  1476
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member. for West Edinburgh referred to the procedure on the other side of the Border, which I think is described as execution by arrestment of wages. That procedure we do not have South of the Tweed. It has been suggested sometimes, but there has been very considerable opposition to it, not only from employers, and not only from employed, but from both sides. There are arguments which have been advanced against it. I can tell my hon. Friend and others from North of the Tweed that, if that procedure were proposed in England, it would involve legislation and controversy, and I cannot at the moment hold out any hopes of the Government introducing it here. It might not be so effective as it may sound. There have to be arrears and they have to be due. If wages are paid promptly, it means that there is some difficulty in Scotland. I do not want to start a controversy about it, but only to make is clear. My hon. and gallant Friend did not press this.
  Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: It works very well.
  The Attorney-General: It may be. I have seen that stated. I am not in a position to hold out hopes that we are going to alter the law in England, by a method of enforcing orders of this kind, or, indeed, other orders and judgment debts, because this process applies generally. Where my hon. and gallant Friend has done a useful service is in drawing the attention of the Lord Advocate and myself, and of the Home Office, to the existing procedure regarding the enforcement of English orders in Scotland and Scottish orders in England. Although each country may decide to stick to what I call its own method of enforcement, it would seem to be right that, in cases of this kind, which, as has been pointed out, affect people of slender means, and, in some cases, maybe, their only resource, the procedure for getting the order made effective in one country or the other should be as simple as possible. If someone has got a good Scottish order, and comes to England, the general English procedure to enforce alimony orders should be at her disposal, with as little delay and expense as possible. Conversely, if somebody has a perfectly good English order for alimony, and the husband goes to Scotland, the procedure

  1477
  there should be as simple and expeditious as possible for putting at the disposal of the wife the Scottish procedure for the enforcement of alimony orders.
  I do not want to weary the House with references to, or details of, the existing legislation. I think it might be inadvisable for me to do so, for it might lead to inquiries on matters which might involve fresh legislation. But I will give my hon. and gallant Friend an undertaking, on behalf of the Home Office, the Lord Advocate and the Scottish Office, and on behalf of my Noble Friend the Lord Chancellor, and myself, that we will look into this point, with regard to the enforcement in Scotland of English orders and in England of Scottish orders, because I am bound to say that such investigations as I have made, do indicate that there are uncertainties in the procedure at present.
  Sir Joseph Lamb: The right hon. and learned Gentleman has said he is willing to look into the question of the enforcement of Scottish orders in England. Will he also look into the question of the enforcement of orders in this country? There is a great deal of hardship and, although I cannot suggest legislation, I will ask him to keep an open mind on this question so that we can, on some other occasion, bring particular cases before his notice. At the present time, a court order is nothing more than a request to a man to pay. If he refuses, the only resort the court has, is to commit the man to prison, which the wife does not wish the court to do because that takes away from the man the possibility of earning any money. If he goes to gaol, and it is worked off, the woman is deprived of the money. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to keep an open mind, and not to confine his inquiries to the question of one country or the other.
  Mr. Burke: Can nothing be done in a case like that to which I have referred where the woman is allowed to go on month after month being constantly in arrears? Is there no way in which the police can help?
  The Attorney-General: I have come here on the Adjournment, as I am sure the House will appreciate, to deal with the point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for West Edinburgh. The points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley and my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir J. Lamb)
  1478
  are concerned with the position where orders are obtained in courts of summary jurisdiction, and have nothing whatever to do with me as Attorney-General. It is entirely a Home Office matter. If that had been the point, I should not have been here. It is because my hon. and gallant Friend raised the general point as to enforcement over the whole field, including High Court orders, that I and my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate are here. I have been in touch with the Home Office, and no doubt what has been said by my hon. Friend will be considered by that office, but I do not think that I ought to give any pledge or commitment now, with regard to English procedure as such.
  Mr. McGovern: I have the utmost sympathy with those affected by the type of case that has been raised, but I would say to the Attorney-General that he should not be taken in too much when considering this matter, in regard to the procedure in Scotland when arrestment of wages takes place. It is a very sore point with a large number of workers in Scotland. Many women get into trouble through debt, and very cute sheriff officers try to enforce the decree in the courts by taking or poinding the wages of the men, and many innocent and good husbands, affected in that way, have lost good jobs because of wives who have failed in their duty in that respect. In considering the matter, I can understand that there would be trouble in England if they tried to put a case over. I have the utmost sympathy with those concerned, and speaking as a result of wide experience and having close touch, extending over 27 years, with many houses in Glasgow, I know it is a very sore point among industrial workers. The arrestment of wages can be used by unscrupulous sheriff officers with deadly effect against men. Sometimes men have been driven to drink, and have lost their jobs, through the policy of arrested wages in industrial employment.
  Mr. Mathers: I join with the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) in the point he makes, although my experience has not led me to believe that the fault is due to unscrupulous sheriff officers, but the thing works out sometimes in the way he mentions, especially in instalment payments which are often incurred by the wife un-

  1479
  known to the husband in many cases. This is a different thing entirely. In the question of the legal responsibility of a man to provide for a wife whom he is in the process of deserting a real case has been made out for special action to be taken in the matter. In matters of that particular kind the Law Officers of the Crown and the Government as a whole might be fortified by the knowledge that there would be unanimous support in this House for any action they cared to take, even the action which I am not allowed to mention to-night—the action of bringing forward legislation to deal with the matter. Even that would be supported by the House, to meet what is a crying scandal. The matter is not so limited as it appears to be by bringing forward here to-night only two isolated cases; it is much wider than that and deserves to be dealt with.
  Mr. Kirkwood: I would like to have one point cleared up. I understood the right hon. and learned Gentleman to say that they could arrest the whole of the wages. That is news to me. They used to get everything up to £1, but we have fought it here, since I came, and we have had it increased to £2. Does it mean that has gone, and they can arrest all the wages?
  The Lord Advocate (Mr. J. S. C. Reid): Originally one could arrest all wages for all debts. Then, 60 or 70 years ago, the limitation was put on, that for all other debts, except aliment, £1 must be left. That sum which must be left is now increased to 35s., but one can arrest the whole amount for aliment.
  It being the hour appointed for the Adjournment of the House, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER ajourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

  ENEMY-OCCUPIED COUNTRIES (VITAMIN IMPORTS)
  ENEMY-OCCUPIED COUNTRIES (VITAMIN IMPORTS)
  ROYAL NAVY (PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE)
  ROYAL NAVY (PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE)
  LAND ACQUISITION
  LAND ACQUISITION
  POST-WAR EMPLOYMENT POLICY
  POST-WAR EMPLOYMENT POLICY
  INCOME TAX (INVESTMENT INCOMES)
  INCOME TAX (INVESTMENT INCOMES)
  COURT OF INTERNATIONAL JUSTICE
  COURT OF INTERNATIONAL JUSTICE
  LEND-LEASE (REVERSE OPERATIONS)
  LEND-LEASE (REVERSE OPERATIONS)
  TRUNK ROADS (TEES DISTRICT)
  TRUNK ROADS (TEES DISTRICT)
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE)
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE)
  FOOD SUPPLIES (CATERING LICENCE, EDINBURGH)
  FOOD SUPPLIES (CATERING LICENCE, EDINBURGH)
  REPATRIATED PRISONERS OF WAR (FURTHER SERVICE OVERSEAS)
  REPATRIATED PRISONERS OF WAR (FURTHER SERVICE OVERSEAS)
  FOREIGN COUNTRIES (TARIFF AND INCOME TAX REVENUE)
  FOREIGN COUNTRIES (TARIFF AND INCOME TAX REVENUE)
  NORTHERN ITALY (RESISTANCE MOVEMENT)
  NORTHERN ITALY (RESISTANCE MOVEMENT)
  SPAIN (AGREEMENT)
  SPAIN (AGREEMENT)
  FLAG DAY (ANIMALS)
  FLAG DAY (ANIMALS)
  KENYA (AFRICAN LABOUR)
  KENYA (AFRICAN LABOUR)
  RAILWAYS (ANNUAL REVENUE)
  RAILWAYS (ANNUAL REVENUE)
  ROAD ACCIDENTS
  ROAD ACCIDENTS
  COASTWISE SHIPPING
  COASTWISE SHIPPING
  METAL SCRAP (RAILINGS AND GATES)
  METAL SCRAP (RAILINGS AND GATES)
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH (COMMITTEES AND STAFF)
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH (COMMITTEES AND STAFF)
  "MEDICAL HISTORY OF THE WAR"
  "MEDICAL HISTORY OF THE WAR"
  HOUSING (PREFABRICATION)
  HOUSING (PREFABRICATION)
MINISTRY OF INFORMATION
  Italy (French Troops; B.B.C. Reports)
  Italy (French Troops; B.B.C. Reports)
  Book, "Your M.P."
  Book, "Your M.P."
  DOMESTIC SERVANTS
  DOMESTIC SERVANTS
  GAS AND ELECTRICITY UNDERTAKINGS (ACCOUNTS, PUBLICATION)
  GAS AND ELECTRICITY UNDERTAKINGS (ACCOUNTS, PUBLICATION)

Preamble
The House met, The LORD STANMORE on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

HERTS AND ESSEX WATER BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
WISBECH CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

EDUCATION BILL.
Debate resumed (according to Order) on the Motion for the Second Reading moved yesterday by Lord Woolton.
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, I rise to support whole-heartedly the Second Reading of this Bill, and as a former President of the Board of Education I should like to say that I think the praise which has been given to my right honourable friend Mr. Butler, not only for his great ability but still more for his great patience, has been well and truly earned. It is extraordinary, when one comes to look back on the history of education in this country, that he should have been able to get so wide a measure of agreement as he has done in regard to the measure now before your Lordships' House. It covers a very wide field and in many respects is of great importance. I trust that my right honourable friend may be equally successful when it comes to the administration of this Bill. After all, the Bill is only the machinery by which we hope to get better education. It will depend greatly on his courage and on his firmness Whether we are able to obtain the full results which we hope and believe are possible under this great measure. What is it that we can expect to achieve by education? Is it merely the acquirement of knowledge? Is it not rather the development of character, the power of
70
concentration, and also, perhaps, as much as either, the capacity of a pupil to learn to think for himself? The great Lord Chesterfield in his famous Letters wrote this:
"Dear boy, you will seldom hear from me without an admonition to you to think. All you learn and all you can read will be of little use to you if you do not think and reason upon it yourself."
I turn to the first consideration of what we hope to achieve by education—namely, the development of character. The whole House will agree that the British people have won the admiration of the world by their patience, their fortitude, and their courage during the present crisis. Also, I should think, we can claim for ourselves to be the most law-abiding people upon earth. I remember a distinguished foreigner saying to me some years ago: "You need no police in this country, you keep yourselves in order." I am not quite sure that that is so true to-day of the younger and rising generation. From what we see in the Press a large number of cases come into court of children who have got into trouble. I suggest that in these clays teachers, and still more parents, are inclined not to rule children and to see that they do what they are told, but rather to let them run free and do what the children themselves please. I may be old-fashioned but surely it is right that the elders should exercise their experience and their knowledge and not leave children merely to do what pleases them best.
Further, is it not true that character must be founded upon religion? Those of us who believe that character and social improvement cannot rest upon a sure foundation unless it is founded upon religion will, I think, welcome this Bill, because for the first time it makes religious education a legal obligation in all schools. I share with the Bishop of Chichester some doubt whether that religion is going to be taught by teachers in controlled schools who in fact believe in it, but I share still more the doubts of the most reverend Primate as to whether in council schools teachers who really believe in religion are those who are going to teach it. Nothing is said about it in the Bill and, as was pointed out yesterday by the most reverend Primate, the McNair Report also says

71
very little about it. Of course I am not talking about denominational teaching, I am merely talking of the Christian religion as a whole. That is a point which, whether it be in the Bill or not, I trust that the Government will see is carried into full effect. Some hoped that the Government might have been able to go further in regard to denominational religion. There are others who think it has gone too far, entirely disregarding the fact that if the State had to buy or to reprovide those schools which have been built and maintained up to now by the churches and the chapels the task would be a very considerable one, and that the immense cost entailed would no doubt put off the provision of further schools and, still more, the raising of the school age.
I am glad to see that the President appears to be committed to a reduction in the size of classes, but I plead with him also for a reduction in the size of schools or, at any rate, that he should not build very large schools. I understand that many local authorities like what is called a "three-stream school"; that is to say, that each age group is divided into three, the bright children, the average children and the slow children. If you take a four-year, or later on a five-year period, that will give you somewhere round about 360 to 450 children in an ordinary school. I am one of those who believe that the influence of the headmaster on the character of the children in his school is very considerable indeed, and although there may be some few headmasters with the wonderful gift of being able at once to recognize a face and remember a name and all that is concerned with it—I envy them such a gift, which I certainly do not possess—the average headmaster cannot, of course, get to know the whole of 360 or 500 children in a large school. A child will only be under its teacher for a year. It will be in an age group, slow, medium or fast, and then go up to the next class, and you cannot expect the ordinary form master to have any real influence on that child when that influence only extends over one year. It is a different matter when you come to residential schools because there the house master does take the place of the headmaster and the objection to a big school when it is a residential one is of course very much less strong.
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I come now to the second consideration in regard to education. How often has it happened that a brilliant child, showing great promise, has, when one looks back at his career later on in life, failed to achieve the promise which had been hoped for and which there had been reason to expect? Is it not usually the case that that child is lacking in the power of application? He has never learnt to grind. How many people have been really successful in life unless they have learnt to put their noses to the grindstone and to keep them there? I am certain that none of His Majesty's Ministers will say there have not been many occasions when the flesh has been extremely weak but the spirit has enabled them to keep going because they have learnt the power of application. That indeed is true not only of politics but of almost everything else. Is it not also true that experience has shown, amongst other things, with regard to children who have been evacuated from the big towns and cities, that, while they have had a modicum of knowledge of a large number of subjects, that knowledge has not always been well and truly founded, in that the foundations were weak?
May I press the Government therefore to see that those much despised three R's are really properly learnt? It was said by the noble Lord, Lord Quickswood, yesterday, that no child should be allowed to leave school until he could read. He ought also to learn how to put his thoughts on paper. Moreover, somehow or other he will have to keep his family budget right, and if he cannot do that amount of arithmetic he is likely to find himself in a good deal of trouble. Therefore I trust that whatever else is taught we shall at least make them learn the three R's. I should have preferred that the White Paper did not lay quite so much emphasis on a happier childhood. I remember being under a master who drove both me and the whole class very hard indeed. At the end of the term when I got home I was completely through, but I have always looked back on him with gratitude, because at any rate he taught me to stick to a thing whether I liked it or not. That surely is the first thing we have to teach our children to do.
I turn now to the question of how to get the children to think for themselves—the key, as I think, of all further education and self-improvement. The most reverend

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Primate said yesterday that children were inclined to forget everything they had been taught before the age of fourteen. It entirely depends upon whether you have aroused their interest. If you have not made them think you have not aroused interest and what goes in at one ear is very likely to go out of the other. One of the best reforms in this great measure is the abolition of the examination at the age of eleven. That necessitated a child acquiring a large amount of hook knowledge. It was in many cases a pure system of cramming and the child did not develop the capacity to think for himself. It encouraged a parrot-like knowledge and it resulted in children being passed to secondary schools who were not capable of profiting by the education given them. As the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, said yesterday, it magnified the status of the black-coated worker at the expense of the artisan and the real craftsman. To quote paragraph 28 of the White Paper, in normal times, or in fact now, "the secondary school enjoys a prestige in the eyes of parents and the general public" and therefore all other schools are looked down upon. I think it was a stroke of genius for the President to arrange, not to abolish the term "secondary school" and to adopt some other term which would have continued that prestige, but to make that term apply to all other schools after the primary school. Now we shall have both the modern school and the technical school put on a level with the secondary school.
I am not quite clear either from the Bill or from the White Paper how children are going to be selected to go to these respective schools. I hope it is not going to be by the choice of the teacher in the school itself. After all, teachers are human and you may get a child who has made himself an intolerable nuisance and who has been very difficult, but who none the less has great capacity. It is only natural that the teacher should say it is quite useless for that child to go to a grammar school or a modern school and that the only thing is to send him to a technical school. That may be entirely wrong. Therefore, I trust that selection will be made by inspectors. I do not for a moment suggest that we should try to get a bureaucratic form of education entirely run from the centre and run on the same sort of lines as schools in autocratic countries such as Germany and
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Italy. That, as we know, has done an infinity of harm to the people of those nations.
I look on an inspector as being human and friendly and helpful to the school to which he goes. After all, not every teacher has the divine spark of being able to impart the knowledge he has and make it interesting to the children in his class. An inspector should be able to give him suggestions and hints. There are some local authorities whose ideas about inspection seem to be quite wrong. An inspector walks into a school, passes the time of day with the teacher, looks at the class and walks out. That is not an inspection. Nor should an inspector try to catch out the pupils. What is wanted is that questions should be asked of the pupils to see if they are ready with answers, if their answers are intelligent, and if those answers show that the instruction has been given in such a way that the child is able to think for himself. When I was President of the Board of Education all that we were allowed to do was to issue a book—a very good book incidentally—which was a handbook of suggestions for the consideration of teachers. I am glad to find that the President is going to be given more power than to issue a book with a title of that kind.
I rejoice to know that a great increase is forshadowed in the number of technical schools. There is nothing about that in the Bill, but I gather from paragraph 28 of the White Paper that that is going to happen. That is all right as regards secondary schools, but what is going to happen about further education? The only reference to that in the Bill is to young people's colleges—Clause 41—which are to give education including "physical, practical and vocational training." That does not convey to my mind skilled training for trades and craftsmanship. May I make a suggestion to the Government in regard to that? My suggestion is that they should bring in the heads of manufacturing businesses and people concerned with other vocations to help in the government of these schools and technical colleges. I remember visiting the School of Technology and Art at Leicester—a very good authority incidentally. Already that college was having its third extension. The governing body consisted very largely of people

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connected with the leading industries in the city. The reason was that many of them had themselves been through that college, and the result of their interest in that college was that a very large amount of machinery had been supplied by the members of the board of governors. They said it was no good teaching apprentices on particular machines because they were out of date and so they would supply new machines in order to keep instruction up to date. Not only did that save the taxpayers and the ratepayers a great deal of money, but it also meant that the instruction given was modern and in accordance with the requirements of the trades. May I plead also that apprenticeship schemes should be framed in consultation with manufacturers and others, so that their apprentices get training not only in technical matters but in regard to design and invention? I am quite certain that the country will profit very greatly if that is done. It is a really important part of education.
Now I will turn for a moment to one further point. I welcome the provision which is made in the Bill both for physical recreation and for the extension of school meals and the provision of milk for children. But why only meals in school? That accounts for only one meal in the day. There are other meals and the most important meal in the working man's home is high tea. Why is not cookery going to be taught? Or is it going to be taught, and just has not been mentioned? And why should not it be taught not only in the secondary schools but in the young peoples' colleges? I think it is known that we are bad cooks, and we are also the most wasteful nation in Europe. One of the greatest things my noble friend Lord Woolton has done is to compel a great many people to learn how to cook. Let us see that children, too, are taught to cook, because, after all, it is not only the health of the child that we are considering in regard to this matter; we have to think of the child eventually becoming a parent himself or herself and having to provide for the next generation. It is no good building good houses and hoping for better health in the country unless you make the housewife know how to keep the house clean and in good condition and how to cook good and nourishing meals for her family.
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Finally, I come to matters which I consider call for criticism in the Bill. I regret that the President of the Board of Education is no longer to be called "President." I do not quite know how officers of the Board are going to get on when they go to his room to see him and cannot address him as "President." But it is quite right, of course, that he should call himself "Minister" and I think that the change is inevitable. I only hope that he does not acquire the habit which I note that some Ministers have of talking about "my Ministry" and "my Department." It is not their Ministry, and it is not their Department. If we go on in that way we shall have the first Lord of the Admiralty talking about "my Navy." I am quite certain that the present First Lord would not do it, but I should very much like to hear the language of the sailors, and indeed of the Prime Minister himself, if he did. But what I have said applies to other Ministers too.
I think the terms "primary" and "secondary" schools are admirable and indeed brilliant, but why "young people's colleges." Do you really talk about having colleges for old people? If not, then why speak of "young people's colleges," Why not speak of "county colleges" in the same way as we speak of county schools. There are some, of course, that will be only county borough colleges but that is equally true of schools. Then why "auxiliary schools"? After all, the denominations who run these schools are doing more than giving an auxiliary education. You do not talk about a man who joins the Army for the period of the war as an auxiliary soldier. Why should not these schools be called "denominational schools"? It is true that some of them are not, but the great majority of them are. Why not call a spade a spade, and call denominational schools by that term? In Clause 14 we have "controlled schools," "aided schools" and "special agreement schools." Are not all schools controlled? Are not all schools aided? And what is to be said of a school which in the year 1945 makes a special agreement with the Government and the local authority, and is still to be called a "special agreement school" forty, fifty or a hundred years hence? Surely we can find better terms than those.
Why "instrument of management"? I do not know whether the noble

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Viscount, Lord Samuel, who thought that the Bill was so admirably drafted, can tell me the difference between a "rule of management" and an "article of government." I agree with him that, from the Parliamentary point of view, this Bill is admirably drafted, but, after all, although we are a democracy we do not all understand Parliamentary terms nor are we all Parliamentarians. Surely we can get something rather simpler than that. The answer to the riddle, of course, is to be found in Clause 16 which sets out the difference between primary and secondary schools. When you come to Clause 22 you get as a result mumbo-jumbo which, when you have read it with an experienced eye, you will understand; but I am quite certain that the ordinary man in the street will not understand it. Then there is the question of what the managers of the aided schools are responsible for in regard to finance. They read Clause 14 (3) and find that they are entirely responsible for the provision of the buildings and maintenance of the schools and all their extensions, but it is not until they turn to the financial clauses of the Bill that they find that the Minister is going to pay half. Why not say in Clause 14 (3) "subject to the conditions laid down in Clause 96"? At any rate it would make it more intelligible to the man in the street.
This is such a good Bill, and such a great Bill and it is going to apply to such a vast number of people, that I trust your Lordships' House will see to it that we make it intelligible to the ordinary man, so that he will realize how great a measure it is. I rejoice at the things that are being done. I think that the inspection of the independent schools is essential. I do not know whether everybody quite realizes that if they have two children of their own, and they ask three neighbours' children to come in for instruction, they incur all sorts of penalties unless they apply to become a registered school. That, however, is something which I think has got to be put up with. I remember reading some years ago about the inspection of Eton. I think it did Eton good and it certainly did the inspectors good also. They discovered a great many things that they did not know before. They learnt that public schools were not quite so behind the times as they thought they were, and, indeed, that they were in many respects a long way in front of those
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schools provided by the public authority. I think, therefore, that it is good for the schools and good for the inspectors that inspections should take place. I close as I began, by saying that I warmly welcome this Bill. I trust that in regard to minor matters which I have suggested we may be able to improve it still further. I hope, too, that it will have an easy and a quick passage through your Lordships' House.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I speak as a Roman Catholic, and do not in any way express the views of the noble Lords who sit on these Benches. Nevertheless, I feel that I may properly appeal for their sympathy, as my case is based on two great Liberal principles—namely, justice and freedom of conscience. To some of us, this present Bill is almost in the nature of a tragedy. There is so much that is good in it, and it is so nearly a great Bill—one which we could all welcome with enthusiasm. But, alas, some of us cannot do so because the Bill fails in one essential particular. It does not do justice to Roman Catholic parents and to Roman Catholic children. I should like to add my tribute to the appreciation expressed of the qualities displayed by the President of the Board of Education, the qualities of courtesy, tact, conciliation and patience which he has shown in a marked degree during the discussions and negotiations which took place on this Bill elsewhere; but among all these high qualities there does seem to me to be one which has been lacking. I think that there was a lack of courage when the Bill was first framed. The President, in spite of his youth, heard echoes of old, unhappy controversies and feared to face their renewal, and therefore certain injustices have been continued in the provisions of this Bill.
I have a greater faith in the sense of justice of my fellow-countrymen than it seems to me that the President has shown. I believe that the Government should have dared to say to the country that a loyal section of the community, which pays rates and taxes, like all their fellow-citizens, for educational and other purposes, had, because of the existing law, to find out of their own pockets during the last twenty-five years a sum of £3,500,000 in order to maintain schools where their children could be brought up in the faith of their parents, these schools being open as regards the standard of secular education to the full

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control of the local authority. It seems to me that the Government should have pointed out that, as this financial disability was solely incurred for the sake of conscience, it was right that it should be removed, and that the schools in question should receive for the future, as they do in Scotland, the same support from public funds as all other schools. I believe that, if the Government had done that, a sense of fair play would have prevailed and that argument would have been accepted. In such circumstances we could have welcomed the Bill wholeheartedly.
There is another powerful argument which can be adduced, and to which I should like to call attention. I would ask the noble Earl who is to reply to take particular note of this point, as I intend to ask him a little later on for a definite answer to two questions. In 1919, His Majesty's Government were a signatory of treaties with Poland, with Czechoslovakia and with certain other countries. These treaties established the principles which the British Government at that time considered should govern the treatment of religious minorities in educational matters. Perhaps your Lordships will allow me quite shortly to cite the latter part of Article 9 of the Polish Treaty:
"In towns and districts where there is a considerable proportion of Polish nationals belonging to racial, religious or linguistic minorities, these minorities shall be assured of an equitable share in the enjoyment and application of the sums which may be provided out of public funds, under the State, municipal or other budget for educational, religious or charitable purposes."
I am here only concerned with religious minorities and with educational purposes, but I am quite clear that, had the provisions laid down in that article been fully applied in the present Bill, Roman Catholic schools—provided, of course, that a reasonable number of children was available—would have been entitled to exactly similar treatment in respect of public funds as any other schools.
There are two objections to this thesis. They come from highly respected quarters, and, at the risk of wearying your Lordships, I feel bound to deal with them very briefly. The first is that I have taken no account of the preceding article of the Polish Treaty, Article 8. There is no force in this argument at all, because
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Articles 8 and 9 are in no way interdependent; they deal with two entirely different aspects of the minority position. Article 8 states that the minority shall enjoy the same treatment in law and in fact as other Polish nationals, and proceeds to give special instances of when such treatment shall prevail, with no reference at all to the funds provided by the State. Article 9, on the other hand, is concerned solely with funds derived from the State, and declares that minorities are to be assured of an equal share in the enjoyment and application of such funds.
So much for the first objection. The second objection is that as the educational facilities provided by this Bill are open to all citizens, there can be no discrimination against any particular minority. This thesis was sometimes put forward by a Government who wished to evade the provisions of the minority clauses of the treaty which it had concluded. The plea, however, was definitely rejected by those responsible for the supervision of the minority clauses, and the test which was applied was whether a measure did in fact impose a peculiar disability, financial or otherwise, on any particular minority.
Perhaps I may be allowed to sum up the position under these treaties. In certain respects—the protection of life and property, and equality before the law—the individual members of a minority were to be treated in exactly the same way as individual members of the majority; but as regards cultural and religious aspects, the minorities were to be treated differently from the majority. I do not know whether the noble Earl has any doubts as to the validity of my contentions, but, if he has, I would refer him to a judgment of the Permanent Court of International Justice in the matter of the Albanian schools, from which it is quite clear that the treaties bound the signatory State to treat the minority differently from the majority.
I would, therefore, put two questions to the noble Earl. The first is: Do His Majesty's Government maintain the principles of the clauses of the 1919 treaties as regards equal treatment of religious minorities? Secondly, if they do—and I very much hope that they do, since the principles represent a large measure of progress and tolerance—do they

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honestly hold that these principles have been fully applied in the case of the Bill now before your Lordships' House? It seems to me that the Government have definitely refused to religious minorities in this country the treatment which they advocated, and indeed insisted on, where certain foreign countries were concerned.
The point I have raised is by no means a purely legal or academic one. In England we are now approaching a situation which is similar to that in many European countries, where virtually all elementary education is provided for out of public money. Even here the minorities are unlikely, before long, to be able to afford to pay taxes for an education which they do not want for their children and, in additon, to find the large sums required to provide their children with an education which they do want and which, quite rightly, has to satisfy the technical standards set by the State. The ideal solution seems to me to be that adopted by the Netherlands Government since 1917. By Netherlands law any religious denomination which can in any commune fill a school with a specified number of children has the right to have a school wholly provided out of public funds, but under the complete control of the particular denomination, subject, of course, to the general regulations of the State as to proficiency and subject to State inspection.
I want to address a few words to my Free Church and Nonconformist friends, because I have been told that it is chiefly due to their attitude that our claims have not been met. I would in the first place like to remind them of the fact that they have been in the past staunch upholders of the minority treaties to which I have referred. I remember when I was at Geneva seeing numerous petitions and letters signed by Free Church leaders insisting on the fullest application of these treaties. Have they abandoned their previous generous attitude towards religious minorities. I do not believe it. I realize that they have a very distinct and real grievance as regards single-school areas, but we were and are fully prepared to meet them on this point. I ask them, therefore, whether they will not meet us now and in the future. I was much encouraged by an Amendment to the Bill which was proposed in another place by a prominent Nonconformist, in which it was proposed that where there was a sufficient
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number of parents who wished their children to be educated in the State-maintained schools the local authorities would be bound to provide such schools. That is the principle which the Roman Catholics would like to see applied all round.
I have tried to put before your Lordships the main features of our case. Perhaps some of your Lordships may ask why, if we believe our case to be so strong, we do not press it strongly, and why it was not put to the ultimate test in another place. I will try to answer that. Some little time before the introduction of this Bill for the first time the Prime Minister made a strong appeal for national unity in these moments of grave stress. We felt that we could not but respond to that call, particularly since we were fighting an enemy who would, if he were able to do so, utterly destroy the whole basis on which our Christian civilization rests. We therefore determined not to proceed to extreme lengths but to obtain by negotiation and persuasion such mitigations of the Bill as we could, and then to shoulder the additional financial burden—and it is no light one—without murmuring overmuch. We looked upon it as an extra contribution which we were called upon to make towards the preservation of unity. We still hope that in the Committee stage of the Bill this House will agree to certain alleviations. But however this may be, when the Bill becomes law we shall do our utmost to collaborate loyally in its working. Nevertheless it must not be thought that we are in any way abandoning our fundamental position. When peace comes we shall strive by all constitutional means in our power to secure such a change in the law as will afford complete justice to Roman Catholic parents and will allow our schools to be fully integrated in the national system.
THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC WARFARE (THE EARL OF SELBORNE): My Lords, perhaps this would be a convenient moment for us to adjourn for lunch for an hour.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.
VISCOUNT SANKEY: My Lords, permit me first to join in the congratulations to the President of the Board of Education upon a remarkable achievement. His Bill is not only a landmark

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in the history of education, but in the history of England. Further and more remarkable still, thanks to him, it has been reached without the ill-feeling and bitterness which characterised the 1902 settlement. Let us hope that this means a step towards a better understanding between the Churches, and the dawn of a new era in which they can co-operate in promoting many things, both religious and social, upon which there is no difference of opinion between them. From a secular point of view both the content and organization of education are immensely improved by the proposals now before your Lordships' House. If the Minister reduces the size of classes and raises the school age our cup will be full. The Bill is undoubtedly a compromise on the religious question, but a compromise which carries with it a large majority of our fellow-citizens. I do not forget, however, the minority who disagree with the Bill—a minority who have for so many years borne the burden and heat of the day in supporting in every possible way a system in which they passionately believe and to which they have devoted so much of their time and so much of their resources. I trust, however, that they will see that the substantial gains which the new Bill offers to religious education will compensate them for the loss of some of the privileges which it is difficult to insist upon in a community which has different ideas as to the method by which the Message of Christ is to be delivered.
What are the substantial gains in this Bill? To begin with, the White Paper which was issued last year, and which is the foundation of the policy in the Bill, declares in paragraph 4 that among other important features of the plan is the recognition of the "special place of religious education in school life." Further, in paragraph 126, it foreshadows an amendment of the existing law so as "to emphasize the position of religious instruction as an essential element of education." It is a great advance that it should definitely start with some idea of the type of character it wishes to produce in its citizens. There may be a few men who can be moralists without a creed, but to the great majority a creed is not only a help but a key to morals. Both religion and morals make their contribution to the security and stability of a State, and consequently
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to the happiness of its citizens. George Washington, in his farewell address to the American people in 1796, said:
"Of all the dispositions which lead to political prosperity religion and morality are indispensable supports."
The cardinal trouble of the world to-day is that it has lost faith and found uncertainty. Under this Bill, for the first time, each day's school work must be preceded by corporate worship. Under this Bill, for the first time, there will be a statutory obligation to provide religious teaching in every primary and secondary school. Under this Bill the machinery for such teaching will be improved. Religious instruction will not be limited to fixed periods in the time-tables—an improvement on the impossible position when all the forms had their religious lessons at the same hour. Under this Bill teachers who wish to train themselves in religious knowledge will be able, as hitherto they have not been able, to offer it as a subject which counts in their examination for the teacher's certificate.
Turning to other provisions, one of the most satisfactory is the effort it makes to deal in some measure and in some places with the injustice naturally felt by the Free Churchmen in single-school areas that their children have to attend Church of England schools. Considering the great number of Church schools, and the length of time they have been in existence, it was impossible entirely to abolish the dual system. But Clause 8 (2) (b), which enacts that a local education authority shall have regard to the expediency of securing that provision is made for enabling pupils to be educated in accordance with the wishes of their parents, and Clause 53, which makes provision for transport and other facilities, will be widely welcomed and should to some extent improve the situation in cases where a genuine grievance exists. Personally, I should have liked to see in the Bill some definition of Christian education, and perhaps those to whom is entrusted the duty of compiling a syllabus may attempt and accomplish this task. The passage of the Bill in another place and the public meetings throughout the country are evidence of the satisfaction with which it has been received.
But what of the future? No doubt the general success of the Act will depend upon wise administration, and we have

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no cause for thinking that it will not be administered in a wise and tolerant manner. So far, however, as religious education is concerned, the issue will be in the hands of the parents and the teachers. Probably it will be upon the parents that the main burden will rest, and they will have a double responsibility, first as citizens to insist that the fair prospect opened out shall not fade away, and secondly to see, as fathers and mothers, that religion in the home is not neglected. It has been said that the position with which we are faced is something like a landslide from organized religion. It is asked whether by Church standards the nation is becoming pagan. It will be a strange result if, after the child has been taught religion daily at school, the only day on which the child receives no religious instruction will be Sundays. It will be stranger still if, owing to the decline of organized religion, religious education will be taught for a short span in primary and secondary schools instead of for life in one or other of the Churches. Therefore it is of primary importance that the child should become a member of some worshipping community, and it is here that the parents and the Churches have a duty and an opportunity. Adult education centres of discussion as to religious education need not necessarily be confined to the members of one particular Church.
With regard to the teachers and speaking generally, their part will be a difficult one—namely, to relate educational organization, method, and purpose to the social and economic life which the pupils will afterwards lead. It may well be that the doors of primary and secondary schools will be opened wider as the years pass by. It may well be that new organizations and methods will be found necessary and desirable. The change from era to era which we are now witnessing will not leave the teachers' profession untouched. In the fabric of habit which they have hitherto built for themselves, they will remain no longer. The grievances which teachers undoubtedly suffered in the nineteenth century should be forgotten by them, but they must be given a proper standing in the community and take a just pride in their profession. Everything possible should be done to enhance the standing not only of the teaching body but of each individual teacher, for because they are teachers they are not shut out from their duties
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and privileges as citizens. This places them in a difficult and delicate position, for the teacher does teach, and must teach for good or for evil, a great many other things than his subject.
The Bill will leave this House with the best wishes of your Lordships that those who are called upon to administer it and those who are called upon to act as teachers may join together in a great effort to improve and enhance the standard of education in the country. We have spent, and rightly spent, large sums of money on the provision and upkeep of buildings. Let us also see that the status and salary of the teachers are equally generous and satisfactory. Let us remember, too, that this new Act is not to be the last chapter of an old system but the first chapter of a new one.
Before I resume my seat will your Lordships permit me to say a few words on the subject of adult education? My excuse must be that I have been for many years President of the British Institute of Adult Education and only recently have been engaged in presiding over committees dealing with the matter. Like many other movements in Great Britain, adult education sprang from the people themselves. The growth of our industrial system and the domination of the machine directed attention to the right employment of leisure, with the result that early writers tended to divide adult education into two parts—firstly, the vocational training which enabled the individual to work and earn his living; and, secondly, the liberal training in arts and kindred subjects by which he was to be able to free himself from the monotony and mastership of the machine and to spend satisfactorily his leisure hours. Gradually this distinction became less marked and it was realized that a training in citizenship was of vital importance in a State which was extending its franchise. Even to-day a man may be a profound scholar or a brilliant technician and yet know nothing of the aims and desires of his fellow-countrymen or of the conditions of life of those amongst whom he lives. He is not able to form a judgment on public affairs such as is rightly expected of a member of a democratic country. An educated democracy is the best form of government but to have an ignorant democracy is asking for trouble.

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Again referring to the White Paper of 1943, paragraphs 85 to 88 deal with adult education. Paragraph 85 says:
"Without provision for adult education the national system must be incomplete, and … the measure of effectiveness of earlier education is the extent to which in some form or other it is continued voluntarily in later life. It is thus within the wider sphere of adult education that an ultimate training in democratic citizenship must be sought."
I would, however, appeal to the noble Earl who is answering this debate, and through him to the Minister of Education, to remember that you cannot impose adult views upon children, nor will you be able to impose compulsory education on adults. The attendance of children at school must be compulsory. The attendance of adults at education courses can only remain voluntary. Adult education cannot be left entirely to the State. It has arrived at its present position by private enterprise and voluntary effort. Nothing must be done to dry up the resources which have so fruitfully watered this field of learning. No doubt the State ought to provide some funds towards this purpose and to make rules and regulations for their use and application. This is a course which has already been taken over a number of years, and it is most satisfactory to see that the policy is being carried out in the further education clauses of the Bill now before the House. Clause 39 provides that it shall be the duty of every local education authority to secure the provision for their area of adequate facilities for further education—namely, full-time and part-time education for persons over compulsory school age, and leisure-time occupation for any persons over compulsory school age who are able and willing to profit by the facilities provided for that purpose. Clauses 41 to 44 deal with young people's colleges and perhaps this is the most welcome and hopeful of all plans for the future.
This is neither the time nor the occasion to condescend upon the details which are being proposed and discussed to carry out this enactment. It is sufficient to say that the education services which have operated in the Forces and the interest in inquiry and discussion developed by the Army Bureau of Current Affairs and similar developments among Civil Defence personnel, are likely to produce a much
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larger public anxious to pursue a variety of subjects on informal lines. This must be for the advantage of the country, although the machinery by which it is to be reached will require careful examination and success will probably only be achieved by trial and error. Gratitude, it has been said, is a sense of favours to come and, while we thank the Minister of Education for the great services he has rendered to the country in launching and in piloting this Bill through very difficult waters, we hope that we may now have from him similar services in the cause of adult education.
VISCOUNT BUCKMASTER: My Lords, I fear my only claim to address your Lordships on this matter lies in this, that when the present Act of 1936 came before your Lordships I was one of those (and there were not many) who ventured to protest that the best use was not being made of a great opportunity. I am very glad, therefore, to see the promise of a sweeping advance on a broad front which this Bill holds out and which educationists have waited for so long and so patiently. I feel that I must pay a very warm tribute to the Minister and to those who have worked with him. This matter really transcends Party politics and I can only hope that some means will be found whereby the Minister may remain in his present office, at any rate for several years.
It would not be right for me to attempt to deal with this Bill in any detail, but I would like, if your Lordships will allow me, to say what I feel our purpose and aim in this matter of education should be and then to refer to one or two clauses of the Bill. In any matter of education we must of course make up our minds what we are going to teach. Too often we forget that many children are quite unable to absorb what we loosely call higher education. The mind is limited just as the body is. We have got then to give technical training and be prepared to teach a trade. We have to fit the child for the kind of life which it will have to live. But we must not stop short at material things. We must try and cultivate an independent outlook, and surely even the most limited mind can be taught, and should be taught, a love of beauty and of truth. I am reminded of something said by the late Sir Stanley Leathes. I cannot remember the exact

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words, but it was to the effect that to see a poet condemned to cart muck would be a tragedy but it would be a greater tragedy if he whose duty in life was to cart muck should not have something of the poet in him. I feel that this Bill, in doing much else as well, incorporates these aims and that the spirit of these aims pervades it. For that reason I welcome it.
But there are those who feel that the cost of this measure, when added to the many other measures of major social reform, is going to put too great a strain on the public purse. To them I would like to say that money provided for education is neither spent nor wasted; it is invested. It is an investment of capital bringing in a return greater than we can easily assess. I believe that a well educated community is one that is easily governed. I think history will support the view that such a community escapes the major social disorders. Nonetheless, this question of finance has got to be faced and I do not think that the Government have done that. We have to ask ourselves what it is that local education authorities are being asked to do. Even a preliminary survey shows something of the task that is put upon them. The expenditure which they will have to incur is something in the neighbourhood of £30,000,000 a year. We must ask ourselves whether a rather more generous contribution from the Exchequer will not be necessary.
I do not want to open up the question of local government finance but I would like to say a little upon this matter. The position at present, as your Lordships will be aware, is that the Government pay approximately 50 per cent. of the cost of education but this figure will rise in 1948–49 to 55 per cent. Of that, £900,000 will be allocated to the poorer authorities, some of whom are in very poor shape. In another place the honourable member for Pontypool gave some most startling figures which I will not quote except to say that whereas the education rate in East Sussex was 1s. 9¼d. it was 5s. 6½d. in Durham. When we look at figures like that it must be clear that those authorities which are poor, either because of a low rateable value and a high child population, or because although they have a higher rateable value yet they have higher demands on account of large existing
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commitments, simply cannot do what is being asked of them. This point really must be faced. It is fundamental and cannot be avoided. If local education authorities are unwilling or unable to play their part the whole structure will collapse and all our labour will be in vain.
One of the chief provisions in this Bill is the raising of the school-leaving age to sixteen, when practicable. If I understood the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, correctly, he is anxious to see that expedited. No one is more anxious than I am for raising the school age but attempts to accelerate it unduly might be disastrous. You have not got the teachers or the schools. You will sink the ship. The most reverend Primate said that there were cogent arguments for raising the age to sixteen. One was that you had children under control and with continued medical examination you could keep them fit. That of course is so, but, if I may, I would like to put still further reasons apart from the educational side. Surely we can hope by retaining children in school until the age of sixteen that some improvement in their character will result. Not long ago the question of juvenile delinquency was debated in your Lordships' House and one noble Lord then called attention to the fact that among girls in the age group fourteen to sixteen years there was an increase in delinquency of 122 per cent. One cannot help feeling that if children were kept under some control a little longer it would be a great advantage. I think there is a further advantage in connexion with the question of unemployment. I have not been able to get exact figures—I do not believe they are available—but probably something like three-quarters of a million children between the ages of fourteen and sixteen are gainfully occupied. That is a large number to take off the labour market. We shall have to face the question of unemployment again some time and that would be a very considerable contribution towards solving it.
Apart from that, it is really a question of humanity. I do not think that children should be pitchforked into life at the age of fourteen. I do not want to say things which distress, but in 1941 twenty-two children under sixteen years of age were killed underground in coal mines and one child in every three who worked underground in coal mines was

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injured. When this Bill becomes law, and if it carries out its promise, that will of course become impossible, but the part-time employment of children will still continue. It is true that Clause 57 empowers local education authorities to prevent this if it is against the child's interest but that is not enough. I do not think any person who is really interested in education, nor is there any schoolmaster I have ever met, who would not welcome the prohibition of the employment of children during school years. It is not right that the struggle to earn money should be added to the other strains and stresses of these early years.
We have heard a lot about young people's colleges. The name is not popular but I have none other to suggest. This, however, I would like to say about them. This Bill shifts the burden for nonattendance from the parent to the child. Now there are many children, both boys and girls, of sixteen who want to be clear of the whole thing. They are not anxious to have any more school. I am not saying that they are right but it will not be easy to make them attend. Nor do I think 44 days in the year allotted to the training in these colleges is enough to give the education that is needed. That is my opinion about it.
Now I should like, with your Lordship's permission, to say something about our public schools. These, as your Lordships are aware, have been attacked in no very moderate fashion by certain speakers in another place. I will not repeat what they have said because I have no desire to say anything which is inflammatory. I stand before your Lordships quite unashamed as one who believes that these schools have something of the greatest value to offer, something that cannot easily—if it ever can be—found elsewhere. I do not find it easy to define the essential qualities of these schools. Most certainly I am not the best or the proper person to do it. If I were to attempt a definition I would say that it is not a system of education they give you but a way of life. And never is the work of these great schools more abundantly justified than in time of war, because they foster a spirit of independence and of leadership, and encourage the acceptance of responsibility, but discourage that spirit of suspicion and that jealous insistence
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on rights, real or supposed, so often met with elsewhere.
I do not wish to introduce the question of corporal punishment, but I might perhaps be allowed to use it to illustrate the difference in attitude between those who have attended different kinds of schools. Take a boy at an elementary school, whip him for something that he has done, and in all probability he goes whining to his mother with the result that the teacher is prosecuted. Take a public school boy, flog him for something which, perhaps, he has not done, and nobody ever hears a word. Perhaps a slight disgression may be permitted, and in a debate on education a Latin quotation may be allowed although, it will no doubt be mispronounced. On the walls of one of the buildings in the school to which I had the privilege to belong there were inscribed these words, Aut disce aut discede manet sors tertia caedi. Roughly paraphrased that means "Leave or learn, your third fate is to stay and be thrashed." Perhaps if that had been more strictly enforced more members of my old school might, on their own merits, have found themselves in your Lordships' House.
One cannot in this matter of education omit the question of the teacher. If the teachers are too few, if their quality is poor you get nothing. There will be no vigorous or vital growth—you will merely have a pale, anæmic shadow. The number of teachers wanted is enormous—80,000 or so. Various proposals are on foot for recruiting them; for widening the basis of getting them. The McNair Report, of course, if accepted in full, will sweep away most of the grievances that now exist in the teaching world. Gone will be the difference in scales between one county and another, gone the salary upon which a teacher cannot live, gone the distinction between a teacher with a certificate and another, more able, who has not got a certificate. It will be an entire revolution in the teaching world, but it will take time to get these teachers. It is no doubt wise to recruit them from the Forces, but they have got to be trained and they must be suited to their task. I do feel that you cannot be either too wise in choosing them or too patient in training them. After all, it rests with them whether the abundant promise of this Bill is fulfilled. On them it depends—if I may be allowed to quote

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a line of Wordsworth—whether the child on leaving school will feel himself
"… the generous spirit who when brought Among the tasks of real life, hath wrought Upon the plan that pleased his boyish thought."
THE LORD BISHOP OF WAKEFIELD: My Lords, I feel that I must make some apology for speaking, as I am a very new member of your Lordships' House, and also because the only reason I can give why I should speak at all is that I have had some experience, over a period of forty years, of education in the North of England. I have had experience of administrative work and also—and I think that perhaps this does count—for at least twenty-live years I have given religious teaching in the schools for two or three days a week. I shall not, of course, attempt to deal with the whole wide scope of this Bill; it would be foolish and out of place for me to do so. But there are three particular issues about which I would dare to say a few things. Two of them, at any rate, have not yet been brought to the notice of your Lordships' House. The first is in the general question of administration. It has been said in another place, very truly, that this Bill is like a very fine architect's plan, but the building of the school system has still to be done—or, instead of building, should one say the rebuilding? What impresses me enormously is the great demand which will obviously be made on various classes of people if the provisions of this Bill are really to be carried out, and the high ideals that have been set before us are to be achieved. It will mean that there will have to be great demands on the general public, and particularly on those who have some special interest in, and special knowledge of, education, who hitherto have not been sufficiently enlisted to help in the great work of education.
I should particularly like to refer in that regard to the constitution of the two central consultative committees on education. I believe that they will fill a place which very greatly needs filling, and that if we are not to be content simply with regulations and building schemes and so forth, to have a body of men experienced in education at the centre to advise the Minister in regard to the lines on which development should take place is a very great gain—and it is secured in this Bill. Again I am very glad that in one clause
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of the Bill, that which deals with the constitution of the education committees, it is provided that they shall include persons of experience in education and persons acquainted with the educational conditions in the area for which the committee acts. We have suffered too much—and I speak from a fairly wide experience—from the fact that on some of our education committees often there are very few who are able to take a wider outlook on the needs of education, and education has, accordingly, been stunted and hindered rather than advanced. The fact that it will now be statutory for a committee to include people of experience in education will be a very great gain. But it will involve a demand for people to be ready to give their services. So also in the memorandum on the principles of government of secondary schools there is recognition of the important part which these governors—and, I suppose, in their degree, the managers of the primary schools—will have to play. As I see it, it will mean that there must be far more interest and far more self-sacrifice if these schemes are to be carried out and the right kind of education is to be given in the schools.
Let me now turn from this question of the committees and others whose help will have to be enlisted, and consider the need for a very much wider interest in education and in what it really means in the country as a whole and in the various localities. In this connexion I wish to refer to one point which was raised in another place, and which seems to me to be of real importance. If you are to enlist the interest of the public, you must also enlist the interest of the Press. In the educational provisions under the Act of 1908, it is open to the Press to attend the meetings of the education authority. A great deal of work will now be delegated, however, to the divisional executives. They may become practically the local education authorities for whole districts, and yet it may be that a divisional executive will not permit the presence of the Press. That seems to me a matter of real importance, for two reasons. There are sometimes dangers of unfair, as well as of unwise, decisions by these bodies, and one of the great safeguards of fairness is publicity. If it is known that the proceedings are to be reported in the Press, I think it will ensure

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greater fairness of treatment when important decisions have to be taken, as compared with decisions being made in private and then announced to the public afterwards.
I understand that the President of the Board of Education has suggested that it would be open to the divisional executive to allow the Press to be present, but that is not the same thing. I think that the Press should have the same right to be present as in the case of meetings of the local education authority. We owe a very great debt of gratitude to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, as well as to the President, for the very able way in which he has dealt with the various problems which have arisen, and for his sympathetic consideration of the different interests. Speaking in another place, he said that he found himself in hearty agreement with the suggestion that the schemes might very well provide that meetings of the divisional executives shall be open to the Press, unless they passed the resolution which has now to be passed in order to exclude the Press from meetings of a local authority or education committee. "I will undertake," he said, "between now and the Report stage to see whether in fact this is possible within the terms of the measure as drafted." That provision has not appeared in the Bill, and I suggest that that point might well be considered by your Lordships, because it seems to me to be one of considerable importance.
I should now like to turn for a moment to the question of the demand which is going to be made for teachers. The whole scheme of education as envisaged in this Bill will, if carried out, demand something of a revolution in the present outlook in regard to teachers and the schemes for the provision of teachers in what have hitherto been the elementary schools. In the McNair Report there are two provisions which seem to me to be of immense value. One is the proposal for unifying the teaching profession so as to ensure mobility, and so that teachers in secondary schools may move to primary schools, teachers from primary and secondary schools may move to training colleges, and so on. There will thus be a mobility and unity in the teaching profession which I believe will be of immense value. Secondly, in the proposals for the training of teachers
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there is a proposal not only to lengthen the course, which undoubtedly is essential, but also to provide a far more liberal and cultural training for those who are to teach the children. It is a commonplace to say that in the end the teachers are the key to the whole situation, and, if we can ensure a wider and more liberal training for the teachers, then indeed we are going far towards carrying out the ideals embodied in this Bill. Those two things seem to me to be of the utmost value.
In view of the proposals for an increased number of schools, for a reduction in the size of classes, which is so essential, for raising the school age, and so on, I find it difficult to see where we are going to get all the teachers who will be required. It will mean a tremendous recruiting campaign. I had occasion a few weeks ago to speak to the headmistresses of three large secondary schools with which I am connected. I asked them how many of their senior pupils were proposing to enter the teaching profession, and whether this great vocation was being brought before them. I found that certainly it was being brought before them, but in those three schools, which have some 300 girls, there were only three or four who at all contemplated going into the teaching profession. We shall need somehow or other—I confess that I do not know how it is to be done—to awaken the mind and imagination of the public to the greatness of this opportunity in the teaching profession, and we shall have to try to enlist the very best people that we can get. I cannot think that we shall get a great many from other professions; there will be a trickle, but no more. While enlisting public interest in the cause of education, therefore, we must try to bring young men and young women to see that there is no other profession in which they can better or more truly serve their country.
I have referred to the good things in the McNair Report, but there is what seems to me to be a most deplorable feature in it, and that is the complete ignoring of the need for teachers to be prepared to give the religious teaching which the nation is demanding for the schools. It is an amazing situation. I have studied with some care the main things which it is said that all teachers must know. What are they to know?

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They are to know some physiology, so that they shall understand the bodies of the children. They are apparently to study some psychology—I hope not morbid psychology, which too often it is. They are also to study questions of citizenship. There is in the Report, however, no recognition of the child as a moral and spiritual being, as a personality. If you are content with that, what have you better than the Nazi system? I do hope that the President of the Board and others responsible will turn on this matter not to the McNair Report but to the admirable Norwood Report, which has an excellent chapter on religious teaching which is full of common sense. It recognizes the real difficulties—and of course they are real—and at the same time puts forward practical proposals which might well be carried out. I hope that they will be carried out by the Board.
It is a strange thing that a Report which purports to examine the Whole field of the training of teachers omits altogether what many of us—I think the majority of members of your Lordships' House—regard as the most important thing of all, the training of the individual as a human being with a moral and spiritual nature. I think it is so well said in that admirable pamphlet which was issued I think by the Conservative Party. Looking Ahead which seems to me to have the best philosophy of education of any of the books which I have read—that what we need to remember is that in the whole of our education we must be training the child to learn how to work for the good of all as well as for his own good. If so, it means training the moral and spiritual side of his nature.
I shall venture to turn now to another matter, and I want to appeal to the noble Earl who is to reply for some guidance on this. I think there is considerable obscurity in the provision of the Seventh Schedule to which I shall refer in a moment. First about the agreed syllabus teaching, as it is called. Frankly, I do not share the, if I may say so, rather gloomy views of the Bishop of Chichester. I think there are great possibilities if this is carried out in the way which I believe is intended in this Bill. I do not think it is of any use now to go back to the question of the Scottish system, though if it were proposed I should oppose it, because I do not believe it would gain the
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point for which the Bishop of Chichester was pleading. In the White Paper on Religious Instruction in schools, presented to Parliament in February, 1943, it is said that in the great majority of the schools in Scotland—in over 2,900 of the 3,211 schools—the teaching was on an agreed syllabus. It is not really what we should call denominational teaching, and the only other schools were the 223 Roman Catholic and 18 Episcopal schools. I do not think the Scottish system would apply in this country at all.
However, that is not really the point. What I would like to say is this, that the reason why I for my part believe in the value of continuing the dual system—it is not a pis aller, it is not a something which I am ashamed of or deprecate—is that I believe it is one of the safeguards against a totalitarian system, a bureaucratic system in which everything is ironed out under your central or local authority. The very fact of those schools being there with their managers and local interests is itself, quite apart from the religious question, of real value in education; and again and again I found parents who preferred to send their children to some denominational school for two reasons, first, because they found the atmosphere so much more homely—and that is of real value—and secondly, because of the security for the full teaching of the Christian faith. The Bishop of Chichester suggested that it might be very difficult to carry on teaching under the agreed syllabus because, he said, there is no guarantee of the teachers being ready to give religious teaching. Clause 28 to which he referred is simply a safeguard for the conscience of the teachers, which I think is of immense value. There is nothing worse for religion than for a teacher to be giving this teaching perfunctorily when he does not believe in it, and unfortunately this is the case in some schools at the present time. I conceive it to be of the very greatest importance that a teacher should not be hindered or handicapped in his profession because he does not hold the Christian faith. Clause 28 safeguards that position.
I recognize that quite inevitably in a Christian country, when you really come down to the facts, if you are going to consider a head teacher to whom Christian teaching is not of supreme importance it will create a prejudice in favour of those who believe in the

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Christian faith. But if you are to appoint teachers to give religious teaching you are at liberty to ask them whether they are prepared to do it—why engage them otherwise?—and whether they are qualified to give it. There is a very common misinterpretation which has done a great deal of harm for many years past, according to which it is thought there is something in an Act of Parliament or some regulation of the Board which prevents you from asking a teacher whether he is able and qualified to give religious teaching. You can ask him that just as much as you can ask if he can teach history or geography. And there is nothing in this Bill which will prevent that. Therefore I do not share the Bishop of Chichester's apprehension that we shall not have teachers who are able to give that teaching.
There is one further point that I should like to make. I want to refer to the Seventh Schedule. There has been much praise given to the drafting of this Bill, but I confess that the Seventh Schedule seems to me quite extraordinarily obscure. The idea of these religious advisory committees is that they are to represent the authorities, the teachers and Christian denominations. Such committees, when formed, have met together and with amazing good will and harmony have agreed on what are the fundamental principles in the Christian faith and on the general lines of the teaching—with the help of the teachers there remember—which should be given in the schools. Now the Seventh Schedule reads as if there were going to be four committees—one Church of England, one of other denominations, one of teachers and one representing the authority—and that each of them is to draw up a syllabus and then there will be a conference and they will see what is the result. I cannot imagine anything that would more completely defeat the purpose of having an advisory committee. I should therefore like to ask the noble Earl if he can make that clear. I can only hope that if the meaning is as I have described it the Schedule will be radically altered; but if the reading is what we have always understood, that is to say, that it is to be a committee composed of the different denominations, of teachers and of the authority, that it will be made plain. The provisions certainly are extremely
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obscure as they stand. I quite understand that there may be sub-committees, but that there should be a joint committee of all representatives is essential.
The second point I want to make on that Schedule is this. If you are in earnest in saying that you want to have this religious teaching properly taught in schools it seems to me to be essential that this advisory committee should not simply meet and draw up a syllabus and then disappear, but should be a standing committee of the local education authority. May I quote authority on that? I have referred before to the West Riding. I have seen an extraordinary change in the West Riding and am thankful I was one of those who helped to negotiate the concordat which has brought peace and good will and better religious teaching in the schools under that great authority. They formed under the concordat a religious advisory committee. They have recently revived it, and its terms of reference are these: "That this Committee is to advise on methods of teaching and inspection, the provision of books and lectures for teachers, and generally as to religious instruction in all types of schools." It has done admirable work and, as I say, the committee is now being revived and will go on. If you simply had your joint committee drawing up the syllabus and then disappearing, there is nobody on the local education authority specially charged with seeing that religious teaching is carried on properly. What better, then, than that the advisory committee should continue in being and give its care and attention to the matter? I understand the Minister suggests that it is open to the authorities to do that if they wish, but it makes a very great difference if it is enacted in the Bill as the kind of thing they ought to do. I shall venture, if I may, when we come to the Committee stage—I do not know whether the Government will agree—to propose that it shall be competent for the conference to recommend to the local education authorities the appointment of standing advisory committees to advise on religious teaching, etc.
These are the main points that I wished to bring forward. May I just say this last word, which is only what others have said? Here, it seems to me, is a tremendous opportunity if it is rightly used—a

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wonderful opportunity for the good of our country, for the good of the children, and not only that, but, a wider issue still, in respect to our taking our right place among the nations of the world. It was asked yesterday what was the purpose of education. If I may quote the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, I think he was right when he said that the purpose of education is not only to teach the way of earning one's living but the right way to live. As I see it, these two aspects must always be included in true education. It was also asked, did education make us happier or more virtuous? I think the answers were rather pessimistic. As I see it, there is something inherent in the nature of man that he should use those powers which God has given him, that his body should be trained and well sustained, that his mind should be opened to this wonderful world in which we live, the world of nature and the world of history, the treasures of art and of music. He is a moral and spiritual being, and we must come back to these eternal laws of God, often difficult to discern and apply, but, as I believe, as much part of the constitution of this universe as natural law. If we can do something to give to the children their opportunity of entering on this inheritance and realize their duty to others, also their supreme duty and responsibility to God and dependence on Him—if we can do something to set forward that in the education of our country, we are doing a great work.
LORD AMMON: My Lords, my first words must be of apology to your Lordships for the fact that I have been unable to listen to the other part of the discussion on this Bill owing to my being engaged on a Select Committee upstairs. Next, it falls to my lot to express a word of congratulation to the right reverend Prelate who has just finished, and in that I am particularly qualified not by experience but by sympathy as this is only my second speech in your Lordships' House. Therefore the right reverend Prelate felt a little more at home, especially on this subject, than perhaps I do at the present time. Nevertheless, I am sure your Lordships have welcomed him as an addition to your already very large reservoir of wisdom and learning in the House, and also as a moral and spiritual strengthening thereof. I have not the slightest doubt that others of your Lordships
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have expressed their appreciation of, and congratulations to, the President of the Board of Education for having brought in this Bill, which will certainly place his name among those which stand out prominently in the history of education in this country. He will rank with Forster and Fisher who have done so much in that connexion. I noted that in his opening speech the Minister said this is the first of the Government's measures of social reform. That, as far as I can see, shows that post-war planning has started off on the right foot. It has laid the foundations on moral, spiritual, and intellectual lines, and I hope it is an indication that they intend to follow through in that direction in their post-war planning.
Having said that, may I add one or two points? I wish there were more "shalls" and fewer "mays" in the Bill, because I can foresee, when the present crisis has passed and the danger has disappeared, there will be opportunities for those who may not be so anxious to see these things come in, to obstruct further development. In that connexion I felt a little concerned when the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, gave a hint, which seemed to meet with some appreciation, that probably there would be a considerable delay before the higher school-leaving age was proceeded with. It is to me a melancholy commentary on Christian civilization that the last great Bill of educational reform came at the close of the last Great War. We have had to wait for another great war before getting this further step on the road to a higher and better civilization. I put it very much on a par with the commentary that we had to wait for a great war before everybody could be assured of a square meal and employment. I hope, anyway, that this Bill may put us on the road along which we should proceed and so make it more likely in the days yet to come that such reforms will be a natural phase of our development, rather than wait for great calamities like the present to drive us to promote such legislation.
The first thing that one appreciates, looking at the Bill from the angle that I take, which is probably different from that of the majority of your Lordships, is that we have got firmly fixed the recognition of the nursery schools and adult education. As one who was for a good many

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years connected with the Workers' Educational Association, I, at any rate, look upon this with very great satisfaction and expectation. It is also highly satisfactory that we are making the feeding and nourishing of school children compulsory. You cannot expect mental or physical development in under-nourished bodies. May I, as a matter of recorded history, and to do justice where justice is due, mention that forty years ago a member then of the other House, the late Mr. F. W. Jowett, was alone in the country in pleading for children to be fed at school? He was laughed at and derided. It is a case of poetic justice that a Tory Minister of Education should now bring in a Bill confirming what that member voiced many years ago.
I want to turn next to the question of the school-leaving age and to refer to one or two specific points. In his speech the Minister stated that the raising of the school-leaving age was to be postponed, if necessary, owing to a shortage of schools and teachers. That point was referred to by the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster. The financial provisions indicate that the new buildings are not likely to be provided until 1947 or 1948. That I think is really a gift to the reactionaries who wish to postpone the higher school-leaving age as long as possible and, judging from the debate which took place in Committee stage in the other House, the Government do not anticipate raising the school age to sixteen earlier than 1961. That does not look as if there were any intention to make any very great haste. I hope I am mistaken in saying that. I am often more pleased to be mistaken than to be right on some things. Then I would like to know what is going to be the position with regard to the secondary and grammar schools. Is a differential school-leaving age as between grammar and modern secondary schools part of the scheme for an indefinite period? Perhaps the noble Earl who is to reply will let us know.
The noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, paid a tribute to the work of the public schools. I appreciate the work that has been done by the public schools, but at the same time it is well to remember that the public schools are, after all, based on a different economic foundation. While we may pay tribute to the work of the public schools, and I have no criticism to make of public schools qua public
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schools, I think they should be made equally accessible to all members of the community. At present that is not the case. They are at the present time centres of class and money differences and are not open to merit alone. It has been said that the Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton and Harrow. I suggest that this great war will probably have been won on the playing fields of our ordinary secondary schools.
The first question I wish to ask the Government is in regard to the direct grant schools. In this connexion the Minister particularly asked the Fleming Committee for its views as a matter of urgency but when the Committee gave their views the Government refused to accept them. That reminds me of some of the questioners that we used to have when speaking on the hustings. The questioner was very much offended if you did not give him the answer he expected. That seems to be the case in this connexion so far as the Minister is concerned. As the Bill stands at present, this bids fair to defeat one of the objects that we desire to see accomplished in our educational system. In that regard I would like to ask this question which is put to me by a correspondent. Local education authorities are required by Clause 10 to make a development plan, and in making comprehensive plans for its area it must space out the various types of education needed for the children there. If there are, however, several direct grants schools in its area, all with legal rights to decline to co-operate, the whole character of its plans for the area might be spoiled. For example, in the county of Bedfordshire, according to List 60 of the Board of Education, there are eight schools on the grant list. Of these five are direct grant schools, four of which are in the town of Bedford. The fifth is at Dunstable and is the only secondary school at Dunstable. What is to be the position in the county of Bedford when the county council comes to frame a comprehensive plan if these two important urban centres are entirely occupied by schools upon which it cannot count for co-operation? That is a difficulty that is going to occur under the system as it is in the Bill.
The White Paper on which the Bill is based contains the following words:
"A system under which fees are charged in one type of post-primary school and pro-

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hibited in the other offends against the canon that the nature of the child's education shall be determined by his capacity and not by the financial circumstances of his parents."
There are objections to a continuance of the direct grant system, but if this form of public support is retained then no fees should be charged. The principle should be that no fees should be charged in any school which receives financial aid from the public purse, whether locally from rates or nationally from taxes. I hope that even now the Minister will take a definite stand and decide one way or the other. If they are receiving grants, then they should be treated differently to the way it is proposed in the Bill to treat them.
I come now to the question of priorities. What are contemplated in the development of the reforms envisaged in the Bill? Two will tax the resources of the country—(1) the reorganization of post-primary education and (2) the establishment of young people's colleges. In London, it will cost several millions to provide the buildings and labour and the teachers alone, to say nothing of the sites. I shall be grateful for some indication as to relative priorities to be assigned. Is the establishment of young people's colleges to be given priority over the reorganization of the post-primary system?
Another point I wish to raise has relation to Clause 46. This is causing a good deal of perturbation among some local authorities and in this respect I can speak for the largest authority in the country, the London County Council. This clause extends considerably the arrangements under Section 80 of the 1931 Act for medical treatment and it does it to such an extent as to bring it into conflict with the Public Health Act of 1936. The Public Health Act lays it down that where-ever possible the guardians or parents should contribute something towards the cost of medical treatment. This Bill seems to ignore that. Therefore the two would be brought into conflict and would be likely to bring the local education authority into conflict with the Auditor General. The Bill in fact introduces a comprehensive State medical service for children under cover of the Education Bill. The Bill indirectly subsidizes voluntary hospitals out of public funds through the agency of the local education authority.
Let us take an example of what may happen under the Bill. If a child meets
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with an accident or falls ill the expenses involved can be thrown upon the local education authority. In regard to domiciliary treatment, the child, when it is able to leave, may still require treatment at home. If he goes to a voluntary hospital and receives medical attention the charge for that can be thrown on the local education authority. Surely there is something which requires to be looked into. There has been considerable correspondence between the Education Department and some of the local authorities but the Minister does not yet seem to have grasped the position. What you are in fact doing is this. You are throwing the whole cost of the medical treatment of the child, no matter how the illness is caused or what are the circumstances on to the education authority, when the child may have met with an accident or may have been taken ill a long way out of the jurisdiction of the area itself. That can hardly be the intention. The Public Health Act, 1936, provides that the health authority may recover from the patient or from the person legally liable for maintenance the cost of treatment in hospital of other than infectious diseases.
One other point which I want to raise is of some importance, although it is not altogether a pleasant matter. Everyone must bear in mind the shock to the country by the revelation of conditions when evacuation took place from London and other large cities to the countryside. I refer especially to the question of personal cleanliness. That was a terrible indictment of our civilization. Speaking on the Report stage of this Bill in another place, the Parliamentary Secretary said it was a terrible comment on our civilization. Under this Bill local authorities will have taken from them the power to deal directly with such things. There is to be twenty-four hours notice given to the parent of the child requiring him to cause the person and clothing of the child to be cleansed, but the parent can object and can appeal to a court of summary jurisdiction. That will mean tremendous delay. Meanwhile the child will mix with other children and travel in public vehicles spreading unpleasant complaints. It is a definite weakening of the power of the local authority, which now has the power, as the noble Earl knows, to deal at once with the matter.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Is the noble Lord referring to Clause 52?
LORD AMMON: Yes, that hampers the local authority and increases the danger of the spread of disease. I hope the noble Earl will see that the matter is looked into. I know some medical men are very considerably disturbed that it should be proposed to take away powers which now exist of dealing with an unfortunate and indeed dangerous situation.
Now I would like to say a word about religious instruction and on this matter I speak for myself. I am one of those who believe that religious instruction should be a definite part of our educational system. I feel that the nation has suffered by the decline in the attendance at Sunday schools and by the lack of definite religious teaching. No one who has had anything to do with the Courts can fail to have been impressed by the great sexual laxity and the weakening of ordinary common honesty affecting all members of the community which has become widely prevalent. There can be nothing better than definite religious instruction to counteract that. Mr. Butler, speaking in another place, said:
"Let us hope that our children—to use the words found in one agreed syllabus—'may gain knowledge of the common Christian faith held by their fathers for nearly 2,000 years; may seek for themselves in Christianity principles which give a purpose to life and a guide to all its problems.'"
I am glad there has been some measure of agreement in this matter, although I regret the continuance of the dual system. It is a sad commentary on our Christian unity that we cannot somehow or other agree on a common method of religious instruction, but however that may be I am very grateful for the very great measure of agreement already obtained. I hope that everything will be done to see that we get persons best qualified to give this instruction. Apart from anything else that would justify the bringing in of this very great advance in our educational system.
There is only one other word I would say. In spite of its intrinsic merits, this Bill still falls short of giving us an all-embracing comprehensive system of education. It does not bring all our schools into one inclusive national system. So long as there are grant-aided schools and the anomaly of the public schools which are more or less influenced by monetary
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and social considerations, there will be differences between schools. I enter that caveat but I am grateful for what has been offered to us and I express on behalf of myself and my friends grateful appreciation of and congratulations to the Minister. If some of the points I have raised can be dealt with by amendment I think we can look forward to a better era of educational development and improvement in the physical, moral and spiritual standards of the citizens of this country.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, this Bill is so full of excellences that it is impossible for anybody to do anything but join in the chorus of praise it has received, but even this Bill may be improved. The noble Lord who has just spoken mentioned in the course of his observations playing fields, and it is upon that aspect of education that I wish to speak very briefly. I need hardly say that I share the noble Lord's opinion as to the importance of religious, or as I would like to say Christian education, but I want to confine my observations this afternoon to the one question of physical recreation or exercise. The provision of facilities for physical recreation was dealt with in the Fisher Act and Clause 51 of the present Bill, which relates to the question, is largely a reproduction of the provisions of Section 86 of the Act of 1921.
If we look at this Bill we find that in Clause 7 there is a very important declaration that the local education authority should contribute towards not only the moral and mental development of the community but also the physical development of the community. Somehow or other, however, after Clause 7 that aspect of education seems to disappear from the Bill until we get to Clause 51 which, apart from subsection (3) with which I propose to deal at length in a moment, reproduces Section 86 of the Fisher Act. I welcome anything in this Bill which deals with physical development, but I would call attention to the fact that, although Clauses 8 and 10 deal with the duty of local education authorities to make plans for education, there is no express mention of the duty of local education authorities to include in those plans plans for the physical development or education of the child.
Nobody concerned with the administration of justice can fail to be aware of the volume and the character, the disturbing

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character, of juvenile crime. The available records relating to these young offenders show that the great majority of the delinquents compare badly in physique and robustness with the average child. Physical defects in these cases are, no doubt, largely due to malnutrition or neglect in early years, but I think it is true to say that the provision of ample facilities for play and recreation has scarcely vet been tried. A beginning was made, as I have said, in the Fisher Act of 1921, in the section which made it a duty for the education authority to provide facilities for physical recreation; but I respectfully suggest that this Bill would be improved if Clauses 8 and 10, at any rate, were expressly to mention the duty of the local education authority to include in their arrangements plans for the provision of the equipment which is necessary before recreation can be carried out successfully.
When I come to Clause 51, I find what I cannot but regard as a serious blemish upon the Bill. Subsections (1) and (2) of the clause are, if I may respectfully say so, admirable, reproducing in an improved form—but they only reproduce in substance—the provisions of the enactment of 1921. When we get to subsection (3), however, I find, as I have said, what I regard as a serious blemish upon the provisions of this Bill. The Physical Training and Recreation Act of 1937 was hailed as a notable advance by everybody. It enabled the Board of Education to make grants towards the cost of providing various means of recreation, such as gymnasiums and playing fields, but it was not limited to the provision of recreation facilities for children or young people. It was an Act which, with universal approval, was intended to provide facilities for the recreation of the whole community, and no less a sum than £3,000,000 was set apart under that Act for these purposes. Seven hundred applications were received from local authorities for grant aid under this scheme, and, with the consent of the President of the Board of Education, these applications were referred to the National Fitness Council, who, in turn, delegated their duties to the National Playing Fields Association, for examination and report. I had the honour to be then, and I still have the honour to be, the Chairman of the Grants Committee of the National Playing Fields Association, and I can well remember the labour, the
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agreeable labour with which we went one by one through those applications for grants under the 1937 Act. We approved a large number of them; we approved something like four hundred and fifty of those schemes. Our recommendations were, in due course, almost as a matter of form, approved later by the President of the Board of Education. The extent of our schemes may be judged from the fact that the area of playing fields covered by the applications was just under 4,000 acres, and the value of the proposed grants may be seen from the fact that the cost alone of the land to be acquired was £346,000, while the cost of laying out and equipping the land was well over £1,000,000.
What happened upon the outbreak of the war, for quite intelligible reasons, was that the grants were suspended and all activities under the Act of 1937 came to an end. But the Act was not repealed, and many of us hoped that when conditions justified action the provision of grants by the Government for recreation for the whole community would be revived. I do not for a moment complain of the decision which was taken in 1939. It was, as I have said, a decision made for reasons which could not be denied. But I find in this Bill that in subsection (3) of Clause 51 the Act of 1937 which was passed with universal acclamation is repealed.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Only Sections 1 to 3.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: Well, Sections 1 to 3 constitute the important part. It is Section 3 which empowers the grants to be made by the Board of Education, and it is the repeal of that provision to which I take the greatest exception. It may be said that the reason for the repeal is that in subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 51 provision is made by which it becomes the duty of the local education authority to prepare arrangements for playing fields and kindred activities. The point I want to make is that the Act of 1937 was not limited to children and young people, it was intended to be for the benefit of the whole community, and it is far too late for anybody to say that these provisions should be limited to playing fields and so forth intended for children and young people. The necessity for physical development does not stop at sixteen or

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even at eighteen, and if my noble friend who is in charge of the Bill in your Lordships' House is going to say that provisions of the 1937 Act are to be cancelled because in subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 51 of the Bill provision is being made for recreation facilities for children and young people, I challenge that answer. It is not an adequate answer to the criticism which I venture to make that the 1937 Act is to be repealed by this Education Bill. The Act of 1937 had nothing to do with education in its primary sense. It was an Act passed for the benefit of the whole community, and I hope that my noble friend who is in charge of the Bill will see his way to reconsider the decision of the Government on this question.
A sum of £3,000,000, in the circumstances which obtain to-day, is not a very large sum, but it is at any rate a sum which, in fact, induced a large number of borough and county councils to incur expenses on the strength of the Government's policy to provide grants for the completion of these schemes. Many of those local authorities have spent money on acquiring land for this purpose in the hope that they would receive grants for the lay-out and equipment of those pieces of land. Those hopes have been blasted by this decision to repeal the Act of 1937, and I fail to understand how it is that in an Education Bill a provision is to be found which repeals a measure which, although it was to be administered by the President of the Board of Education, has little or nothing to do with the education of young children but was, as I have already said, intended for the benefit of the whole community.
Let me remind your Lordships that the Scott Report says that "the playing field is vital to a community life." I do not know what has happened or what is likely to happen to the Scott Report, but I do not think that anybody will contradict that statement by the Scott Committee as to the importance of the playing field in community life. It is important for adolescents and also for people from twenty to twenty-five years of age. If the Government repeal the provisions of the measure of 1937 to which I have referred, they will, for no apparent reason, have deprived a number of local authorities of the assistance which they felt entitled to
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expect from the Government to enable them to provide these most necessary facilities for recreation.
There is a wider aspect of this question to which I would refer. If local authorities find that the Government promise a contribution, which causes them to incur expense in the hope that the promise will be fulfilled, and then it is not fulfilled, it will be difficult to persuade some of them to restart their activities in this connexion. I beg the noble Earl to realize that what I am proposing will not interfere with any of his schemes for education; it will rather tend to increase their value. The opportunities for youth to use the grounds provided by the Minister of Education will not be in any way diminished by the fact that local authorities have the advantage of the grants which the Government would have to make under the Act of 1937. I hope that this is not too small a point to raise in a debate on the Second Reading of this Bill. I observe that my noble friend Lord Cork and Orrery intends to propose an Amendment which will strengthen Clause 51 by substituting "shall" for "may" and that will go some way to meet the point made by the noble Lord who has just spoken. Quite apart from strengthening the admirable provisions of subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 51, however, the question remains to be dealt with of whether this House will approve of a proposal in an Education Bill which would deprive the whole community of the advantages promised by the Act of 1937. I hope to return to this question on the Committee stage, with the sympathy of some noble Lords, unless the noble Earl is in a position to make some satisfactory pronouncement. Local authorities have made commitments on the faith of the Government's promises, and I am sure your Lordships will be averse from repealing the Act of 1937, which was not primarily concerned with education but intended for the benefit of the whole community.
LORD CLWYD: My Lords, we are discussing a Bill which relates to education in England and in Wales. As I have been closely associated with the public and Parliamentary life of Wales, and as Wales takes a very deep interest in education, I should like to refer briefly to one or two matters raised in this Bill which are of special interest to Wales. Before I do so, however, there are two preliminary

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points which I should like to make. The first is that I find myself in a very new atmosphere, and a very different atmosphere from that to which I have always been accustomed in connexion with debates upon education measures. I think that the noble Earl in charge of this Bill will remember the days which we spent years ago in another place on education proposals, and the hectic atmosphere, charged with bitterness, and the long sittings to which that gave rise. To-day, as I say, we meet in a very different atmosphere. It is a strange reflection that it has required a world convulsion such as this war to bring us to our senses in regard to this vital issue in our national life.
I do not think that I am going too far when I say that, however important the provisions of this Bill are in themselves, there is something else with regard to the Bill which is of equal importance, and that is that it is being passed with the general support of the community as a whole. Secondly, I have for a long time felt the importance of having preliminary discussions in the country in connexion with Bills of this sort, and I wish again to thank the President of the Board of Education, soon to be the Minister of Education, for coming to Wales and meeting there those mainly responsible in many directions for education in Wales, listening patiently to their views and acquainting himself with what they thought about the matter. I feel that he has contributed materially to bringing about the measure of agreement which now exists on this Bill.
There are certain matters in connexion with this Bill which are of special concern to Wales. Time is short, for me at all events, and I shall confine myself to two points. The first is this: How does this Bill stand in relation to the claim of Wales for special treatment in education? Wales, as many of your Lordships know, has for a long time held strong views upon this point, and Welshmen have pressed this claim frequently upon the attention of Parliament. I will go further and say that a recognition of the reality and of the strength of this claim is an essential condition of any right understanding of the problem of education in Wales. As to the general ground upon which this claim rests, I do not think that I can do better than read a very few sentences from the recent Report of the McNair Committee:
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"In general the … recommendations of this Report apply to England and to Wales equally, but certain features of the Welsh situation require special treatment. While both countries have shared in a common social life for many generations, within this wider sphere Wales has retained its own national character. The Welsh language is still the mother tongue of half the population."
Perhaps that is a moderate statement.
"Contemporary Welsh literature is virile, and the traditional institutions of the country are strong and active. These are facts which must influence the schools and teachers of Wales profoundly."
Those are not the words of ardent Welsh nationalists; they are the sober judgment of the very distinguished members of a most important Committee which has recently reported upon a vital matter.
When the White Paper was discussed in this House, I expressed the disappointment of Wales on account of the absence from that White Paper of any direct recognition of the difference of the educational conditions prevailing in Wales. I need not say with what satisfaction we in Wales have noted the provision in the Bill which sets up a separate Central Advisory Council for Wales and Monmouthshire, charged with the duty of advising the Minister as to the administration of the Act in Wales. As the Minister knows very well, that provision does not go as far as we want, but it is a step in the right direction, and I hope it will pave the way for a further measure of self-government in education in the future.
There is one other point bearing upon this question of separate treatment, and it again emerges from that very interesting Report. It concerns the question of the assumption of responsibility in relation to the training of teachers. Your Lordships who have read that Report will be aware that there is an acute division of opinion upon that question so far as England is concerned. But the Committee were unanimous in recommending that the University of Wales and its four constituent colleges should assume this responsibility in Wales. They rest their recommendation upon the ground that there are features in the Welsh situation which require separate treatment. That is the first point.
The second point is one of very great interest in Wales, and that is the decision reached so far as this Bill is concerned in regard to the continuance of the dual system in relation to elementary educa-

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tion. I think it will be understood that we in Wales feel keenly what we deem to be the unsatisfactory educational conditions attaching to this system and, as the House will know, there are circumstances in Wales which seriously aggravate the grievance, particularly in the so-called single-school areas. Let me very frankly tell the House what my views are on that point. I very much regret that it was not found possible to remedy this grievance in this Bill, but I am conscious that a new factor has by this time happily emerged—namely, a new spirit of agreement, of conciliation and of co-operation in all matters connected with education. In my view this new factor in the situation creates at all events the possibility—I would put it no higher than that—of an advance towards our goal in Wales along the road of a closer co-operation and a clearer appreciation of the true meaning of education.
May I mention one other matter of considerable moment to me personally? It is this. The introduction of this Bill has shown a widespread desire for a fuller measure of union in the religious life of the nation. As some of your Lordships know, that is a cause for which I have long striven in every possible way. I confess that I would deeply deplore the awakening again at this time of this old quarrel upon the question of religious instruction in schools. Anything that takes place now to mar the movement in many directions for a closer and more united religious life in the country is to be regretted. Before I leave this question of the dual system I want to inform the House of one development of, I think, considerable encouragement and importance in connexion with this question in Wales. About two years ago the governing body of the Church in Wales and the representatives of the four Nonconformist Churches in Wales constituted a conference for the purpose of considering the question of religious education in all its aspects, both educational and administrative, in the hope of arriving at an agreed policy for Wales. This conference has met from time to time under the chairmanship of the Bishop of St. Asaph. It is of course impossible for me to say what may be the final outcome of these consultations, but I am glad to be able to say that the discussions have been carried on in an atmosphere of the utmost friendliness and good will and with a
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sincere desire to reach an agreement. I hope that the meetings of this united conference may be continued. I hope further that they will come to an agreement as to a syllabus, and when that is done I would appeal to all those who will in the future be concerned with the policy and administration of the aided schools in Wales to do all in their power to secure that the agreed religious syllabus shall be accepted for all the children in those schools.
In concluding what I have to say upon the Bill let me say that there are three things which to my mind stand out in it. First of all, it sets before the country a conception of education new in character, in range and in purpose. Secondly—and this, if I may say so, gives me more pleasure than anything else—it involves, as no previous Education Bill has done, the recognition of the vital importance of the teaching profession. Thirdly, it creates vast possibilities of educational advance in the future. But, in saying that, I would like all here to remember that there are two sides to this question. The Bill no doubt gives, and gives much, but it asks much. It calls for greater sacrifice, service, and interest on the part of the public of this country than any Education Bill has ever done before. We are sometimes told in these days that we should be air-minded. It is still more important that we should be education-minded. The measure of the success of this Bill will depend not only on the new money and the new machinery which it provides. It will depend quite as much on the new interest and service of the people in town and country. Three hundred years ago Milton wrote his famous definition of education which will be remembered by some of your Lordships:
"I call, therefore, a complete and generous system of education that which fits a man to perform justly, skilfully, and magnanimously all the offices, both private and public, of peace and war."
This Bill has that great purpose as its goal. I congratulate the Government upon having the courage to bring this measure forward in the midst of the storm of war, but on the threshold of a momentous future, and I rejoice to know that within a few days' time it will find its way to the Statute Book of the Realm.
LORD ROCHE: My Lords, so great and profound is my respect for the Benches

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on which he sits that, except for old sake's sake, I should hesitate to add anything to what the noble Lord opposite, Lord Ammon, so adequately said in congratulating the lastcomer to the Bench of Bishops on the very admirable contribution which he made to our debate. I ask, however, to be permitted to do so for a reason your Lordships will appreciate—for old sake's sake. I hate to think it is a little more than fifty years since the right reverend Prelate and myself, in conjunction with the present Lord Chancellor and under the captaincy of a former Lord Chancellor of this House, Lord Birkenhead, played in one College football team together and in the one scrum. I can only say of the right reverend Prelate that he showed to-day the same obvious devotion to duty and the same resolution as he showed in those days of fifty years ago.
With regard to the Bill, it is a custom when a young man at the Bar recently called desires to join a circuit, he comes before a court of the circuit to state his pretensions—that is his claim to be admitted a member of the circuit. Similarly it would add to clarity if I indicated in a few sentences why I am addressing your Lordships at all. It is because for some years past, since I have had more leisure, I have been a governor or trustee of an independent school. Independent schools are often, in the mind of the uninstructed, believed to consist of public and private schools for the benefit of the rich. In the case of my independent school the sole qualification for admittance is that the children should be poor, and for that reason we not only educate them but clothe and feed them. It is quite inadequately appreciated that a very large number of independent schools in this country are in that class. There are all the schools for the children of the clergy, for example, of which there are fortunately so many, and I hope there will be more. It follows, therefore, that I associate myself entirely with the defence of the public schools by the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, may be for different reasons, though I share and agree with his reasons also.
There is nothing, fortunately, in this Bill to the detriment of independent schools. They have to be inspected, and quite rightly so. The school to which I am referring has, by voluntary arrangement, for some years been inspected by
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His Majesty's inspectors. They have done us no harm, and I am tempted to think they have done us some good. I hope we shall get more good from them in the future. At any rate we have nothing to fear and nothing to lament. In a school of that sort, one gets a very fair cross-section of the educable community of this country. Those who are poor are not limited to any class in particular. We take them as early as six sometimes—therefore, we have a preparatory or almost infant school—and we keep them, having certain training facilities, until they are sixteen and even eighteen, so we run into the young people's college element, about which I shall have a word to say.
That being the position, I now want to approach this Bill and say the little I have to say about it. I agree with the noble Viscount opposite, Lord Samuel, that this is a well-drawn Bill on the whole. It is a clear Bill with few exceptions. It is open to some of the criticisms addressed by the noble Earl, Lord Stanhope, to certain of its phrases. I hope he can better them in Committee, but he will have some difficulty in doing so. Some of these may not be very good, but it is none the less a well-drawn Bill. As has been said more than once, however, it is a mere machinery Bill. It has got to be clothed with flesh and blood. It is like the bones that the prophet Ezekiel saw in the valley. It has got to have flesh and sinews and the breath of life. Flesh, I suppose, has to be got from the Minister of Works—that is the schools. In the case of the sinews, obviously the person to refer to is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But the breath of life has got to come from the Ministry, from the local authorities and, above all, from the teachers. If you do not get that, this Bill will be nothing. It is a case of "By their fruits ye shall know them."
Good as the Bill may be, what will be the state of education in this country in ten or twenty years time? That will be the acid test. I am not pessimistic. I believe it will be radically improved. The rate at which it can be improved and the extent to which it can be improved will depend upon questions of priority in the first place, and it will depend to some extent on not trying to go too fast. There is an old saying that it is no good running before you can walk, and there is a good deal of wisdom in what Lord Buckmaster

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said on that point. The first priority is raising the school age to fifteen, but that involves 500,000 children more or less. The next thing I should like to see is the extension of further education. By that I mean compulsory continuation education between fifteen and eighteen, and the extension of adult education, which is purely voluntary. In this connexion I dare say many of your Lordships have read the works of the President of Corpus Christi, Oxford, Sir Richard Livingstone—the Future of Education and his other works. I am a whole-hearted Livingstonian in this matter. The President of Corpus Christi is a very modest man. He would not claim to have discovered anything very new, but he has presented a great truth about education in a very forcible manner. He would not claim to have been the discoverer of it because he fortifies himself by saying that Plato and Aristotle, for example, thought exactly the same thing. The principle as he states it is this: You can never teach a person till he has had some experience of life and most things you can teach him better when he has had that experience.
I can best illustrate the principle by quoting an example rather than by seeking to prove it, and in this way I can do it more shortly. I know that one instance does not make out a case but I could multiply this instance many times from my own experience. In the school to which I refer there happened to be a boy who had some natural parts but who was disinterested, dull and bored, a condition many boys get into. Someone had a bright idea of putting him to work under a very intelligent forester employed on extensive woodlands that formed part of our estate. The boy was so engaged for a year clearing up after the contractors who were felling certain woods and thinning out other woods and preparing nurseries for growing trees for replacement purposes when the felling had been done. In a year that boy was a changed creature. Although previous to this work he had had a first-rate physical instructor he slouched in all his ways, but at the end of a year at work he was on his toes and when his call-up for the Forces was approaching he asked to be allowed to return to school to improve his education in order that he might stand a chance of getting a Commission. That seems to me a strong example of
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what I meant when I said that it is very important that further education after the school-leaving age should continue after a lad has had some practical experience in industry, or agriculture, or life, and still more that adult education should be promoted as much as possible by State aid for the provision of lecturers and in every possible way. Thus we shall get a population that wants to be educated and then there may be a chance of raising the school age to sixteen.
I join with the noble Viscount, Lord Buckmaster, in thinking that you are inviting disaster if you try to raise the school age beyond fifteen at present. Before you do so you must satisfy the other priorities. What can be worse than trying to educate the disinterested children of unwilling parents, in inadequate buildings, with an insufficient staff of teachers? It is sheer folly to attempt to do so. I hope and believe it will come in due time, but it is an old saying found in Æsop's fables that the boy who tried to draw too many nuts out of the bottle at the same time got none at all. I hope the Minister will be as strong as may be with his colleagues and get as high a priority for all his aims as he can. I share the hope that the present Minister may be long with us. He has an enthusiasm for education and I wish it were possible to make him an All-Party Minister to hold office in successive Governments.
Now I want to say a word or two about two apparently dissociated but really connected matters. I desire to stress the importance both of classical education and of technical education. There are two external streams or sources which have done more to influence the life of this country than any other and those come from two countries, Palestine and Greece. Of those two countries incomparably the stronger influence has been that of Palestine. It is the culture of that country which culminated in the religion of Jesus Christ that has been, in my judgment, through the open Bible, the strongest influence for good among our people. That is a reason why in this country that horrible thing Anti-Semitism, the mark of cruelty and degradation in humanity, is almost negligible. Long may it be so. In my opinion the most reverend Primate and the Bishop of Wakefield are right in welcoming the syllabus education as affording a great chance of extending and

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deepening the tradition and influence of the Christian religion and I venture to acid my humble agreement with their views on this matter.
The other influence I have referred to is that of Greece. It is idle to think that the masses of this country can learn Greek but it is very important that a substantial portion of our people should learn Greek. If Plato's Republic and his Laws and Aristotle's Ethics and Politics had not been written and read in this country, neither the Fisher Act nor this Bill would ever have come into being at all, at any rate in the form in which we see them. The whole of our legislative life is instinct with the thought and philosophy and knowledge of Greece, and it is because the public schools and the grammar schools have played an important part in teaching the Greek language that I so profoundly disagree with the noble Lord opposite in wanting a uniform grey and level method of education in this country. Those are the schools which alone can keep alive the classical tradition which I think is absolutely vital to the educated life of this country.
I turn now to what is apparently a very different subject, the technical schools. Speaking for myself I am fairly satisfied that with the public schools and the grammar schools and the strong Oxford and Cambridge element on the administrative side of the Board of Education, the classics will have a fair deal, but I am not quite so satisfied about technical education. Without classical education we cannot think and we cannot legislate. Without technical education we cannot live at all, and it is for that reason that I am profoundly anxious regarding the future of technical education and its administration. I will not define what it is but an example is a good thing. I am rather surprised that during this debate nobody has called attention to a very striking instance of technical education existing in this country, I mean the education of the Navy. Technical education in the best sense, whatever its curriculum, is for or in connexion with a vocation. We have it at its very best in the Navy. Of course it does not always uniformly yield the same excellent results but speaking by and large it is singularly successful.
Here I may venture to differ from the noble Lord, Lord Quickswood. His speech
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was full of originality and thought, which we always expect from him, but it was full of those paradoxes which are half-truths and the merits and success of paradoxes depend upon whether you recognize them as only half-truths or are tempted to think them altogether true. One test of a boy's education which the noble Lord said you should apply is whether he could read a book written in good English and understand and explain it. I am afraid that education must be advanced beyond the age of sixteen to reach that standard because the English people, however sensible they are, are not in the main very bookish. Perhaps I may be allowed to give a personal reminiscence. I had a marshal on circuit who has since attained considerable success in life. I will not give his name of course, but I may say that he was a member of "Pop" at Eton, no doubt more because of his sporting than his intellectual merits. On the whole circuit he did not get through one book, but he was educated so as to become a most useful citizen. When I was joined by another judge, also a member of "Pop," I was satisfied that both were well educated in different ways.
The truth is that there are diversities of gifts. Surely where education is given we can, in the subject matter that is being taught, teach the scholar to know the reason of things. That is not a perfect definition of education, and it does not try to be, but I think it is a sufficient description of the important thing to be aimed at. That is surely that which differentiates man from the rest of the animal creation. That is what differentiates an educated man from an uneducated man. It is in technical education, given in the subject matter of the craft that the man is going to follow—in the subject matter, the theory of his craft—that that lesson may be learnt. I am not quite happy, as I say, about the desire of the Board of Education or its ability to envisage the importance of technical education. I know from his speeches that the President is, and I gather that the Parliamentary Secretary is also, but our very excellent civil servants sometimes need supplementing and assisting. I cannot forget that in the White Paper provision was made for about £2,000,000 to be spent on technical education, but when the matter was gone

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into it was found that that sum had to be increased fourteen times. If you start with a miscalculation like that, what does it mean? It means that the persons concerned have not the faintest conception of the importance or magnitude of the matter.
I wish the Minister would fortify himself in some way on his Advisory Council by a very strong representation of the technical side of education. What we have to do is to raise technical education to the full status of university education by the time it has reached the technical college. Then we shall finally do away with the false conception that the black coat is what is necessary. A black coat will never save us. The people in our ships, on our farms and in our factories will do that. My plea therefore is for full recognition of the importance of technical education. I would not like it to be thought because I am critical that I do not welcome this Bill. I do welcome it. It holds out glorious prospects, but they can only be fulfilled if there is real enthusiasm, particularly among the teachers. There is an old maxim "By their fruits ye shall know them." I hope that in the time of those who live longer than I the country will see those fruits.
LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, I think I may say that this Bill has so far received a large measure of approval from all speakers. I shall venture to put before your Lordships certain considerations of another character. When we last debated this matter I asked the Government whether it was expected that the large increase in expenditure contemplated would pay for itself and I pointed out that if it did not do so it would involve a reduced average standard of living for the whole country. We hear too a great deal about the importance of exports after the war and we are told that they must be sold at reasonably low prices to be able to compete in the world market. If any plan of social service does not pay for itself by cheapening production it does just as much to raise costs as do increased wages or increased prices of raw material. The noble Earl, Lord Selborne, speaking for the Government, was not a little hazy on the subject of educational reforms paying for themselves, but I understood him to assert that even if they did not do so the country was willing and anxious to
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have them at any price. I wonder what the noble Earl meant. Does he really think the working classes of this country have such enthusiasm for education for its own sake that they are ready to pay for it by accepting personal hardship? Obviously not. What they believe is that other people are going to pay for it and they are going to get the benefits. I do not doubt there will be whole-hearted enthusiasm for education on those lines.
There would appear to be a danger that the whole business is another step in the direction of plundering thrift for the immediate advantage of the majority of the voters, a movement which drove us off the gold standard, reduced our foreign investments, sent up the figures of unemployment by leaps and bounds, and left us unprepared for the present war. The great majority of the voters, so long as they are not themselves liable to taxation, think and always will think they are unaffected by the taxation of other people. It never occurs to them that the same money cannot be used twice over. If anyone's money is taken and used for purposes of relief which produce no material object of value, it cannot be used for the provision of tools and equipment to turn an unemployed man into a producer. I hope the Government will give us a complete account of their calculations.
This business of education is only one of the items of enormously increased national expenditure that our politicians appear to be contemplating. Its finance cannot be considered without reference to the finance of a whole row of other projects, many of which can by no possibility pay for themselves. It is pretty obvious that a first-class financial crisis is brewing. Before long, the working classes will find that if they want this Bill and all the other Bills to come which involve subsidies they will have to pay these subsidies themselves. Up to the present the politicians have had no difficulty in concealing from them the fact that when they vote for plundering their neighbours they are destroying their own prospects. A time is at hand when the only way of even attempting to finance all the new expenditure will be by a pretty stiff permanent Income Tax on wages. How long are the working classes going to stand that?
Coming to the provisions of the Bill, we find a complete lack of recognition of the facts of life. The world we live in is

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organized to correspond to that degree of civilization and mechanization which we have reached. We want so many bricklayers, so many electricians, so many sailors, and, though changed methods slowly modify the relative numbers required, there is no prospect whatever of rapid change. In all trades there is, in the same way, a pretty steady demand for a large proportion of men to do the manual work and a small proportion of men to exercise control. Here again, there is no prospect of rapid change. Yet we find in this Bill a proposal to give practically everyone an education that will qualify him to rise in the world; that is to say, get a better job than he otherwise would have had. All this improved education, therefore, will be useless for the purpose for which nineteen out of twenty people value it—that it promises them a better and more lucrative job. Better education may, no doubt, give certain individuals a chance, which they would not otherwise have had, of supplanting certain other individuals, but there is no reason to suppose that it will bring about any increase in the number of good jobs available. At the same time, it will bring about an enormous increase in the number of people qualified to become candidates for the good jobs, who, in the circumstances, are likely to form a hotbed of political unrest.
This Bill has given the cranks and faddists the chance of their lives. The whole of what has been is now to be swept away, and a completely new start is to be made on the basis of that hoary fraud, equality. In particular, the public schools are to be rooted out in spite of the fact that 90 per cent. of the rulers of the country have, for a couple of centuries or so, come from these public schools, and that it is the dearest wish of 90 per cent. of all those citizens who have made a success in life to send their sons there. Talk of levelling downwards; who can beat this?
LORD GRANTLEY: My Lords, the hour is late, and I shall not trespass upon your Lordships' time for literally more than two minutes. I was most struck by one thing that the noble Lord, the Minister of Reconstruction, said in presenting this Bill to your Lordships' House. He said that one of the effects of the provisions in this Bill would be more education for work of what he called the
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non-white collar type. That seems to me very good news, and it allays, to a certain extent, my fears that one hundred years from now we should have a population of white collars, with everybody in the land selling things to each other, if indeed there was anything to sell, as no one would be left to produce food or goods.
I only wish to draw the attention of your Lordships to one omission from this Bill. I can find no mention in the clauses dealing with ancillary services, nor indeed anywhere in the Bill, of any provision for the use of the cinematograph for teaching. As far back as 1913 the London County Council was considering this matter favourably, and in 1924 the Imperial Education Conference stated—I quote their words—that
"a strong prima facie case has been established in support of the view that the cinematograph can be of real value as an adjunct to present educational methods."
But little has been done, in spite of the gallant efforts of the British Film Institute, of which my noble friend the Duke of Sutherland is President.
For your Lordships' information, may I state that other countries have been much more progressive? In 1939, France had over 5,000 silent and 3,000 sound projectors mainly in the secondary schools. Germany had 10,000, and Russia is singularly well equipped in such facilities. Here, as a contrast, there are barely 500 sound projectors in the schools. That is a totally inadequate number. I am bold enough to suggest that we might have an initial grant to equip a minimum of 5,000 schools with projectors as soon as possible, and arrangements should be envisaged to turn over to educational use in peace time the many thousands of portable projectors that have been used for instruction in the Services and the factories during the war. I have heard that the Board of Education have already stated that they would be prepared to take over some 4,000 16 mm. projectors from the Services after the war. That is very much to the good.
If the supply of projectors in schools were adequate, I can assure your Lordships that there would be no difficulty in regard to the supply of films. The trade would welcome the opportunity of helping to furnish an ample supply of whatever quality and kind were required. It must be remembered—and I would like

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to impress this on your Lordships for your special consideration—that the correct definition of an instructional film is a piece of equipment in the hands of the teacher. The film does not really teach by itself, but it is a perfect instrument for instructing and learning. In the experience of teachers who have used films, the film does not add so much to the quantity of knowledge as to the quality. I have heard that one teacher, speaking of a class which had seen a film relating to an examination question, said these words: "They wrote with authority." I apologize to your Lordships for taking up time so late in the day on what may seem to be a less important subject, but I should like to ask the noble Earl who is answering for the Government to satisfy such of us as are deeply anxious about this matter by assuring us that somewhere in the Bill education by means of film is implicit or enabled, or else that he will soon set up a committee to study this question and advise upon it.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, the hour is very late. I will cut out a great deal of what I had in mind and race through what I have to say. There are a few points which I wish to make and I hope that the noble Earl who is going to reply on behalf of the Government will comment on them in his speech at the end of the debate, or that he will, perhaps, with his usual courtesy, reply directly to me before the Committee stage is reached. With many other noble Lords I heartily join in the chorus of approval and of welcome to this great Bill. I am glad to have the opportunity of adding my own tribute and also those of the Standing Conference of National Voluntary Youth Organizations and the National Association of Boys' Clubs. The Board has well and truly re-cast the national educational system, recognizing the principle that education is a continuous process, conducted in successive stages. The sentence in the White Paper called "Educational Reconstruction" which pleased me most is the following:
"It is just as important to achieve diversity as it is to ensure equality of educational opportunity."
My noble friend Lord Roche has expressed much better than I could the appreciation which I feel. I should like those words to be permanently inscribed in stone
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on the portals of the new Ministry of Education. I trust we shall find that this diversity will not impair the social unity within the educational system but will be found in fact to be a source of increased strength.
I am glad to find from Clause 1 of the Bill that the name of the Board is to be changed to "Ministry." I would have supported other noble Lords in moving an Amendment to that effect. I am hoping that by that change of title some effect may be produced on the minds of the present Prime Minister and of future Prime Ministers as to the importance of this great State Department. During the two-and-a-half years' life of the Fitness Council, I served under four Presidents of the Board: all of them were excellent choices. I trust that the Prime Minister in his four-year plan will consider the possibility of leaving Mr. Butler in charge of this Department, and that therefore this great Education Bill may have a real chance of being set in motion. I would next refer to Clause 4, and express my pleasure at the plan to set up Central Advisory Councils. All that I wish to say on this point is that I hope that representatives of voluntary organizations will be appointed to these Councils.
With regard to Clause 7, I should like to ask the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, whether in his personal capacity, if not in his capacity as official spokesman for the Board, he approves of the word "moral," which is the adjective used in conjunction with "mental and physical" before the words "development of the community." The National Association of Boys' Clubs, by its Royal Charter, has to cater for the physical, mental and spiritual well-being of its boys. I would ask the President of the Board to reconsider the use of the word "moral" before the Committee stage of this Bill. Do not your Lordships, and the President, wish to go a step further than is implied by the word "moral"? I would refer your Lordships to paragraph 36 of the White Paper:
"There has been a very general wish, not confined to representatives of the Churches, that religious education should be given a more defined place in the life and work of the schools, springing from the desire to revive the spiritual and personal values in our society and in our national tradition. The church, the family, the local community and the teacher—all have their part to play in imparting religious instruction to the young."

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In the inspiring speech of the noble Lord, the Minister of Reconstruction, I noticed that three times he used the word "spiritual," and in no case did he choose the word "moral." I feel that this word "spiritual" is the word which should be used in Clause 7, unless a better one can be found. The Bill goes so far as to make compulsory a daily collective act of worship, and religious instruction, and I feel sure that most of your Lordships desire to see the complete personality of the boy or girl developed. I do not feel that the word "moral" goes far enough or is consistent with what has been said, and I trust that the noble Earl will not be satisfied with it. If the spiritual side of religion is omitted, what is left? The Bill aims at greater opportunities for our children, and I believe that your Lordships will agree that the fullest and happiest lives have to be built on the rock of faith, recognizing that the spiritual side of our human nature is the most vital part.
I want now to refer to the young people's colleges, which are dealt with in Clause 41. I welcome, as often did my predecessor in the Chairmanship of the National Association of Boys' Club, Sir Hubert Llewellyn Smith, the materialization of the day continuation schools of the Act associated with the name of my friend and erstwhile tutor, Mr. H. A. L. Fisher. There is much that I should like to say about these colleges, but I shall limit myself to three points. First, if it is decided to offer facilities and amenities to voluntary organizations after school hours, I hope that the local education authorities will immediately contact the various voluntary organizations in their neighbourhood, in order that plans may be worked out as far as possible to suit the needs of the voluntary bodies. Secondly, if this offer is decided on, I hope that the colleges will be built as close as possible to the homes of the young people who, during half the year, will have to trudge home in the dark. Thirdly, I am very doubtful of the value of attendance for two half-days in the week, and I am not very happy about attendance during one whole day in the week.
Is it really impossible to lay it down that the attendance shall be at the rate of three days in the week? I cannot help feeling that employers in commerce, industry, agriculture and so on would find
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it much easier to arrange their work with two shifts of young people than if they always had a number of them absent from their work. I wish, too, that it could be arranged for more young people to attend as boarders, because I feel so strongly that the contacts made, especially out of school hours, are of very great help in the development of character and in learning citizenship. If attendance on more days were ordered, I feel that the Butler Act would avoid the criticism of many in years to come that there was no religious instruction given and no act of corporate worship arranged for young people after leaving school, so that the education of those young people was not as complete as possible.
I should also like to refer to Clause 46, which deals with medical matters. It is excellent to realize that medical inspection will continue until eighteen years of age. I should like to express the hope that there will be as much co-operation as possible with the voluntary organizations, so that leaders, who cannot always have the advice of doctors, may know more of the health of those in their charge. Perhaps they might even be allowed to see some general health report before allowing their young people to carry out hard exercises such as running or bathing.
As President of the Five Million Club, which I might call the younger brother of the Playing Fields Association, I should like to refer to the provision of facilities in Clause 51 for recreation and social and physical training, and to ask the noble Earl whether "play centres" include playgrounds such as have been recently planned by the progressive city of Leeds. It is astonishing to find how many cities and towns have provided their more elderly citizens with bowling greens, and have so neglected the provision of playgrounds for young children. Recently a long list appeared in The Times and at the same time a leading article, which especially called attention to the neglect to take action on the findings of an Inter-Departmental Commission on safety on the roads, which recommended strongly the supply of playgrounds for young children at a distance of not more than half a mile from their homes, in order to save many lives from being lost through playing in the streets.
May I next refer to Clause 51? For this purpose I am asked to speak for the

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Standing Conference of the National Voluntary Youth Organizations which, your Lordships should know, comprise representatives as members of seventeen organizations—the Boys Brigade, the Boy Scouts Association, the British Red Cross Society (Youth and Junior Departments), the Church Lads Brigade, the Co-operative Youth Movement, the Girl Guides Association, the Girls Friendly Society, the Girls Guildry, the Girls' Life Brigade, the National Association of Boys' Clubs, the National Association of Girls' Clubs, the National Federation of Young Farmers' Clubs, the St. John Ambulance Brigade Cadets, the Salvation Army (Youth Department), the Welsh League of Youth, the Young Men's Christian Association and the Young Women's Christian Association. Also they have as observers at their conference representatives of the Association for Jewish Youth, the British Council of the Churches (Youth Department), and the National Catholic Youth Association, and also observers from the Pre-Service Youth Organizations, the A.T.C., the B.N.C. Association, and the Sea Cadets, who alone number 450,000 boys. There is also the National Association of Training Corps for Girls. I have only read out that list to show what a strong body of opinion there is in favour of some reference being made to voluntary organization somewhere in this Bill of 107 pages.
In 1939 the Government gave the Board of Education the task of supervising the full education of youth, its school teaching, and the guidance of young persons in their leisure. This is made very clear in the Circulars Nos. 1486 and 1516, issued by the Board of Education in 1939 and 1940, from which I feel I must read three short extracts. The first is this:
"The Government are determined to prevent the recurrence during this war of the social problems which arose during the last. They have accordingly decided that the Board of Education shall undertake a direct responsibility for youth welfare."
Secondly:
"To-day a new beginning has been made, and the principle has been accepted that youth welfare must take its place as a recognized province of education, side by side with elementary, secondary and further education."
Thirdly:
"Now, as never before, there is a call for the close association of local education authori-
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ties and voluntary bodies in full partnership in a common enterprise; nor need this entail any loss of prestige or individuality on either side."
I stress specially those words "full partnership"—not a junior partnership—and that because of this some mention should be made in this historic Act-to-be of the words "voluntary organizations" in some way either suggesting collaboration or some form of contact with the local education authorities. This may be a convenient place to refer to the Board of Education's White Paper The Youth Service after the War published in 1943, in which among a mass of wise and useful recommendations there are many which are most encouraging to the Standing Conference.
I am also asked to speak on behalf of the National Playing Fields Association who are much troubled over certain future developments, but especially fearful that under the present. Bill they will not be able to see completed all that part of their work on which they started under the Physical Training and Recreation Act of 1937. That Act was set up not only to provide fitness facilities for young persons, but also for those of riper years, in fact, for the general public. I would heartily endorse all that has been said by the noble Viscount, the Lord Chief Justice, and to support him in all that he said. But I must correct him in one error into which he fell when, speaking of the consent needed to pass the schemes, he said they were passed through the National Fitness Council. They were in fact passed by the Grants Committee who were acting directly under the Board of Education. Surely it is not the usual practice under an Act of Parliament of this nature, that is to say, one dealing with the education of young people, to mutilate an Act of Parliament dealing with the people in general. Would not an amending Act be the ordinary and proper practice? I feel that we need Viscount Bertie of Thame here to correct the House in such matters. Surely the Board who sanctioned the playing-fields schemes are not going to allow local authorities and others to suffer from their promises?
My noble friend Lord Nathan referred to youth leaders. I think that phrase is likely to stay, we have used it so long now. I agree thoroughly with much that he said. I fear that it will not be

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possible to get the entire number of youth leaders we need for our clubs unless we pay a certain number. But I agree with him that if you can get youth leaders to come forward voluntarily that is the best. In any case it is quite clear that the organizers will have to be paid in the future. I am not so fearful of that term "youth leader" because it has a Nazi ring; it all really depends on what the leaders say and how they behave, and of course how they are trained on our courses. Taking up what the most reverend Primate of all England said yesterday, I hope that the Board of Education will consider the possibility of setting apart buildings for adult education, which might be developed jointly and used by voluntary organizations, because I feel that the young people should not necessarily be set apart in watertight compartments, but be allowed to join up a little more at times with the outside world.
I do not like to take up much more of your Lordships' time now, but I would not wish it to be thought that I was not interested in the general subject of religion, when I am a member of the Standing Council of the National Society for Promoting Religious Education. I feel, however, that the most reverend Primate and the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Sankey, have so admirably expressed themselves on this subject that I need say no more. I would only add that I am prepared to accept the compromise arrived at with regard to Church schools, and I would say nothing which would revive the old controversies. I will end as I began in praising this great Bill. I hope I may be permitted to congratulate the President of the Board and his Parlia-
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mentary Secretary on realizing that this is a free and tolerant country, and therefore giving us unity and not uniformity, and on realizing that Great Britain flourishes on variety and will not stand for regimentation. Therefore they have found themselves able to level up, and have levelled up, not levelled down, education. I trust that within reasonable time the necessary number of teachers of the right quality may be procured, school and college buildings built, classes made smaller, and that we may find that there is improved classroom teaching, which has the result especially, that the young people are taught how to live, and not only, as the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, said in a most able speech, to learn but to learn how to learn.
LORD NATHAN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Latham, I beg to move that the debate be now adjourned.
Moved, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Lord Nathan).
On Question, Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned accordingly.

ASCOT AND DISTRICT GAS AND ELECTRICITY BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee that the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition having been withdrawn.
Read and ordered to lie on the Table. The Orders made on the 16th of February last and the 24th of May last discharged, and Bill committed.
House adjourned.