Sitting of 11 July 1944

PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
DEATH OF A MEMBER
Mr. Speaker: I regret to have to inform the House of the death of Ian Campbell Hannah, Esquire, Member for the Borough of Wolverhampton (Bilston Division), and I desire, on behalf of the House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relative of the honourable Member.

MESSAGE FROM UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Mr. Speaker: I have to report to the House, that I have received the following letter from the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives.
The Speaker's Rooms,
House of Representatives, U.S.,
Washington, D.C.
May 20th, 1944.
My dear Mr. SPEAKER,
I have received through you the most kind and generous invitation from the British House of Commons to the United States House of Representatives to send a delegation of our Members to visit you and your House.
Speaking for the whole House of Representatives, be assured of our deep appreciation which the invitation and the kindly sentiments expressed therein, and, at the first moment that is convenient, your invitation will be taken up and given friendly consideration. We realise, as we know you do, the great responsibility resting upon our two great democracies, not only now but in the years that lie immediately ahead. We must, and I am sure we will, work together in the fateful days ahead as we have in the past. The friendship and common interest existing between our peoples dictates this, and we in America wish you to know that it is our every desire to work hand in hand with your great democracy, for the peace and well-being of us all.
With best wishes to you personally,
I am, Sincerely yours,
SAM RAYBURN, Speaker.
Colonel Right Hon. D. CLIFTON BROWN,
Speaker of the House of Commons, Speaker's House,
Palace of Westminster, S.W. 1,
London, England.

PRIVATE BUSINESS
  GILLINGHAM CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
  LOUGHBOROUGH CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
  Read a second time, and committed.

  LONDON MIFLSND AND SCOTTISH RAILWAY BILL [Lords] [By Order]
  Adjourned Debate on Amendment to Second Reading (5th July).
  Further adjourned till Thursday.

  LONDON MIDLAND AND SCOTTISH RAILWAY (CANALS) BILL [Lords] [By Order]
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.

  COMMITTEE OF SELECTION
  Ordered:
  "That Sir Herbert Holdsworth be discharged from the Committee of Selection and Mr. Stanley Holmes be added to the Committee."—[Major Sir James Edmondson.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  BRITISH ARMY

    Directed Mine-Worker (Arrest)
    Sir Herbert Williamsasked the Secretary of State for War if he has any further statement to make in respect of the arrest as a deserter, on the instruction of the military authorities, of the man who had been directed by the Ministry of Labour to work in a coalmine.
    The Secretary of State for War (Sir James Grigg): No, Sir. I have nothing to add to the reply I gave my hon. Friend on 16th May.
    Sir H. Williams: As this man did everything that was necessary and disclosed to the Ministry of Labour that he was in War Reserve "W." as he applied to the Record Office, and to the War Office, and had no acknowledgment of any of these communications, can the Minister say why he was arrested when just about to start work in the Kent coalfield, on the instructions of the Ministry of Labour?
    Sir J. Grigg: I understand that he did not state the full facts when presenting himself for registration.
    Sir H. Williams: In these circumstances, can my right hon. Friend say why he has not answered the letter in which I set forth the full details?
    Sir J. Grigg: I will certainly give my hon. Friend the answer, but, in point of fact, the facts as set out are in conflict, and I cannot, whatever answer I give, add very much to my previous answer.
    Sir H. Williams: Can I have the original answer?

    Chaplain's Death, Normandy
    Sir H. Williamsasked the Secretary of State for War if he can make any statement in respect of the murdering by the Germans, in Normandy, of the Rev. George Parry, C.F.
    Sir J. Grigg: The circumstances in which this chaplain lost his life are being investigated.

    Civilian Workers, Italy (Wages)
    Mr. G. Straussasked the Secretary of State for War why an order made by Colonel Johnson, Military Governor of Rome, supported by Lieutenant-Colonel Lane, Chief Labour Officer for Rome, recommending an increase by 15 per cent. of the wages of civilians employed by the allied armies, bringing these up to the level paid by the Germans, has been rescinded by General Alexander.
    Mr. Dobbieasked the Secretary of State for War why the increase of wages to civilian workers in Rome decided upon by Colonel Johnson, Military Governor of Rome, on the recommendation of Lieutenant-Colonel T. A. Lane, Chief Labour Officer, was countermanded by General Alexander; by what authority General Alexander assumed this power; and, as this decision puts the wages below the rate paid to these civilian workers by the Germans, will he take steps to have the case investigated.
    Sir J. Grigg: I am making inquiries into this.

    Composite Units (Italian Officers)
    Miss Wardasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the criticism which has followed the announcement that members of His Majesty's forces are to salute Italian officers; and what action he proposes to take.
    Sir J. Grigg: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave the hon. Mem-
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    ber for Grantham (Mr. Kendall) on 27th June.
    Miss Ward: Is the Minister aware how very lucky the Italians are to be on the side of the Allies, and that we give them special facilities, as Allies, rather than as just co-belligerents; and is he also aware how badly this goes down in the country?
    Major Vyvyan Adams: My right hon. Friend, is, of course, aware that the Army will carry out any order that is physically possible. May I, however, as a Member of this House, ask the reason for this order? Have the Government, for example, already forgotten 10th June, 1940, or that these men, whom we are now expected to salute, were, less than twelve months ago, doing their feeble best to destroy us?
    Sir J. Grigg: I think that the hon. and gallant Member has misinterpreted what, in fact, the orders are. There are certain mixed units and it is enjoined on British ranks that they should salute the Italian officers in camp only. There is a discrimination or differentiation between the treatment accorded to British officers and that accorded to Italian officers.
    Mr. Reakes: Will the right hon. Gentleman withdraw the order and leave it to the discretion of members of His Majesty's Forces?
    Mr. E. P. Smith: Would it not be more appropriate if Italian officers were ordered to salute the members of His Majesty's Forces?
    Mr. Ivor Thomas: Is it not the case that if they were prisoners of war instead of co-belligerents they would have to be saluted according to rank?

    Battle School Training
    Sir John Graham Kerrasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the remarkable results obtained by the battle schools in the development of powers of observation and general mental alertness, he will take steps to secure that all entrants to the Army educational establishments in post-war years shall have received preliminary training in these during their school period.
    Sir J. Grigg: The training which is given at battle schools—excellent as it is for soldiers—is unsuitable for schoolboys.

    Conduct Sheets (Adverse Entries)
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Secretary of State for War whether entries on a man's regimental conduct sheet are expunged after a period; and whether, after a lapse of time with a clear sheet, a soldier is entitled to long service and good conduct pay without being penalised for earlier entries on his conduct sheet.
    Sir J. Grigg: The answer to the first part of the Question is "No, Sir." In order to qualify for the initial award of long service and good conduct pay, a soldier must have completed at least eight years' reckonable service with the Colours and must have been clear of an adverse entry in his regimental conduct sheet for a period of two years immediately preceding the award. In the calculation of reckonable service a soldier incurs a penalty of three months in respect of every adverse entry in his regimental conduct sheet, that is, if he has one such entry he must complete eight years three months reckonable service in all. Similar conditions apply to the second award admissible after 13 years' service.
    Mr. Bellenger: Is it not the case that a soldier, having committed a misdemeanour in the early days of his soldiering career and having paid the penalty for it, is followed throughout his military career by further penalties for the same offence?
    Sir J. Grigg: No, Sir, I would not have said that. I would have said, that the period he has to serve for the award of a special good conduct pay is prolonged.
    Mr. Bellenger: Would the right hon. Gentleman look at this again? Is it the fact, as he has stated, that for every misdemeanour committed early in his career, a man is penalised to the extent of losing three months' service in reckoning his good conduct pay?
    Sir J. Grigg: That is the position. I will look into it, but, quite frankly, it does not seem to be at all unreasonable.
    Sir H. Williams: Will the right hon. Gentleman represent to his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that the same principles ought to be applied to Ministers of the Crown?

    A.B.C.A. Bulletin ("Work For All")
    Mr. Hugh Lawsonasked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that
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    A.B.C.A. Leaflet, No. 71, dated 17th June, and entitled "Work for All," while purporting to examine suggestions other than those contained in the Government's White Paper as being alternative methods of securing full employment, ignores the proposals of that large body of persons who advocate a planned economy and the common ownership of industry as the only remedy for unemployment; and if he will issue an additional bulletin written from this latter standpoint so that Army personnel may hear both sides of the case and that healthy discussion may be promoted.
    Sir J. Grigg: The A.B.C.A. Bulletin on "Work for All" was designed to provide a background of simple economic theory against which the Army could discuss the Government White Paper on full employment. Views advocated by any political party as such were not included in this background material. As far as I am aware the bulletin is fulfilling its purpose and it is not intended to issue a further bulletin on this subject.
    Mr. Lawson: Is not the Secretary of State for War aware that the economic theory contained in the White Paper is that of the party opposite, and surely common fairness demands that the economic theory of my hon. Friends—which recent by-elections have shown is not without support in the country—demands that that should be included in another bulletin?
    Sir J. Grigg: No, Sir, I read the Bulletin myself before it was published, and I think that the description of it as consisting entirely of the economic views of people on this side of the House is completely inaccurate.
    Mr. Stokes: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why all discussion on monetary reform was specifically excluded by instruction, and that there was no discussion about money despite the "Salute the Soldier" week?
    Hon. Members: Can we see the Bulletin?
    Sir J. Grigg: They are all automatically placed in the Library.
    Mr. A. Bevan: If this document makes the unemployment policy of the Government clear, will the right hon. Gentleman make it available to Members of this House?
    Sir J. Grigg: It either will be or is already available.
    Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: Is it not the primary duty of the Army to fight and to learn to fight?
    Sir J. Grigg: They are also extremely interested in what is to happen to them after the war.
    Mr. Sorensen: If this new economic theory is not related to any existing party, is it suggested that it should provide the basis for a new party?
    Mr. Gallacher: In view of the character of the Government's White Paper, is not the title of this publication entirely misleading?
    Sir J. Grigg: No, Sir.
    Mr. Hugh Lawson: In view of the impossibility of continuing this discussion by question and answer, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Middle East (Amenities)
    Sir Henry Morris-Jonesasked the Secretary of State for War whether arrangements have now been made in Cairo and the Middle East to provide more amenities for non-commissioned officers and men; and, particularly, whether some of the many restaurants, etc., previously reserved for officers exclusively are now available to other ranks.
    Sir J. Grigg: A considerable programme of improvements to accommodation and amenities in Middle East Command is being carried out. All ranks will benefit from them. The matter raised in the second part of my hon. Friend's Question is under review and I am awaiting a report from the Commander-in-Chief.
    Sir H. Morris-Jones: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he asked me to send him certain particulars and that I sent him very detailed particulars three months ago, of which I have had no acknowledgment at all?
    Sir J. Grigg: As I say, I am awaiting the report. I will investigate the matter of my hon. Friend receiving no acknowledgment: it is a very unusual thing in my office and I will look into it.
    Sir H. Williams: Have instructions been issued in the right hon. Gentleman's office not to make acknowledgments?

    Discharged Hospital Cases (Travel Facilities)
    Mr. Hyndasked the Secretary of State for War what arrangements are made to ensure that men discharged from hospital are in all cases provided with food and money for the journey to their homes or units.
    Sir J. Grigg: Men discharged from military or E.M.S. hospitals are provided with sufficient haversack rations for their journey and are given a small sum of money with which to buy hot drinks.
    Mr. Hynd: What is the position in regard to men discharged from Red Cross and other hospitals who are not so provided with either rations or money?
    Sir J. Grigg: Perhaps my hon. Friend will put that question down, as I am not able to answer it on the spur of the moment.

  RUSSIAN PRISONERS OF WAR, GERMANY (TREATMENT)
  Mr. E. P. Smithasked the Secretary of State for War to what extent he has received reports from repatriated British prisoners of war of the German treatment of Russian prisoners of war who have, for a short time, shared their camps; and whether, in view of the proximity of Russian troops to German soil, he will transmit these reports to the Government of the U.S.S.R.
  Sir J. Grigg: British prisoners of war are in general confined in camps or compounds separate from those holding Russian prisoners of war and accordingly have little opportunity to obtain first hand information of their treatment. Such information as has been obtained is passed on to the Soviet authorities.

  FLYING BOMB ATTACKS

    Protected Areas (Access)
    Mr. G. Straussasked the Secretary of State for War whether a decision has now been made in regard to permitting the evacuation of certain types of cases, not at present in the schedule, to some part of the banned area; and whether, in exceptional cases, chief constables will be given authority to permit their entry into any part of the banned area.
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for War (1) if he will permit parents, particularly elderly persons living alone in Southern England, to visit their children resident in protected areas, even when the children are over 16 years of age;
    (2) if further consideration has now been given to problems arising from the provisions of the Protected Areas Order; and if he will grant permission to enter such areas to persons in other categories than those prescribed in the Order, or grant chief constables power of discretion in cases of exceptional hardship.
    Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for War whether the permission given to persons made homeless by bombing to live with relatives or friends in the protected coastal areas can now be extended to persons eligible for evacuation from the area attacked by flying bombs.
    Sir J. Grigg: The Government have considered whether any relaxation of the Orders governing the present Protected Areas is possible in order to allow persons from other parts of Southern England to enter these areas. They have decided in the first place to raise the ban on access to the areas in Cornwall, Devon, Dorset and a part of Hampshire consisting of Bournemouth, Christchurch and the rural district of Ringwood and Fordingbridge, as from to-morrow morning. For operational reasons the ban on access to the rest of the areas originally scheduled must be maintained but the Government have decided that permission to enter the areas should be extended to persons evacuated from London and certain other evacuable areas of Southern England, firstly under organised arrangements, i.e. unaccompanied schoolchildren, mothers with children under five and expectant mothers, and secondly, under private arrangements made by persons holding certificates issued by the local authorities in the evacuable areas. The private arrangements cover in addition to the above categories mothers with children of school age, infirm, invalid, aged and blind persons.
    Mr. Woodburn: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if there is to be any lifting of the restrictions regarding the banned areas in Scotland?
    Sir J. Grigg: The exclusions from the banned areas are those I have mentioned;
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    therefore, the banned areas in Scotland still hold.
    Mr. Keeling: Can the Minister explain why operational reasons continue to prevent access to certain areas of persons eligible for evacuation from areas affected by flying bombs, but do not apply to persons made homeless by bombing?
    Sir J. Grigg: Persons made homeless by bombing were included in the original Order.
    Mr. G. Strauss: Can the Minister say what procedure should be adopted in the case of infirm elderly persons, for example, who wish to go to a banned area? Should they give a medical certificate to the chief constable?
    Sir J. Grigg: I would be very grateful if that question could be addressed to the Minister of Health. I believe the Ministry of Health will issue special instructions where necessary. I am only giving a summary.
    Commander Sir Archibald Southby: Does the answer to the last supplementary question mean that people trying to evacuate themselves from the bombed areas should make application to the local authorities for entry into these prohibited areas, or should they go to the local police?
    Sir J. Grigg: I would be very grateful if my hon. and gallant Friend will get the precise instructions from the Ministry of Health. I understand they are contemplating the issue of a Press statement on this matter.
    Mr. Driberg: Can we take it from the right hon. Gentleman's very satisfactory reply that elderly people will be able to go at once and stay with their children, and will not be turned back if they should get into a banned area?
    Sir J. Grigg: I am afraid that the answer does mean—and I have said it quite specifically—that the arrangements have to be organised arrangements. Therefore, they must either be arranged under Government auspices, or the persons concerned must hold a certificate from the local authorities. I do not think there is any automatic access to them.
    Mr. Woodburn: May I ask whether the relaxation which is permitted in regard to Southern areas applies to the banned areas of Scotland, or whether the

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    complete restrictions still apply to the banned areas in Scotland; and whether the Minister holds out any prospect of lifting this ban completely or partly?
    Sir J. Grigg: I am sorry if I was a little obscure. The second part of the arrangements—the addition to the permitted classes—applies throughout the areas which are left. The ban is completely removed only from the areas I have specifically mentioned.
    Sir H. Morris-Jones: Can my right hon. Friend make representations with regard to travelling facilities, because, under present conditions, it is impossible to get on trains, and in that case these facilities are not going to be very much use?
    Sir J. Grigg: I should have thought my hon. Friend would have been able to make his own representations with at least as much vigour as I can.
    Mr. Thorne: Are not the local authorities responsible for the evacuation of women and children?
    Sir J. Grigg: I am afraid that is not in my portfolio. All I said was that there was an arrangement for the extension of the permitted classes, but this applies to organised evacuation, and not to sporadic ones.
    Mr. G. Strauss: Is the Minister aware that this relaxation will be very much welcomed?

    Service Leave
    Mr. Dribergasked the Prime Minister if he will encourage the Service authorities to grant leave, so far as military necessities allow, to Service men and women stationed in this country whose homes are in London and other areas attacked by flying bombs.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): I assume the hon. Member is referring to compassionate leave. This is afforded wherever possible to men and women in the Forces whose families or homes have suffered as a result of enemy action.
    Mr. Driberg: Is the Prime Minister aware that I was not actually referring to compassionate leave, which is what is chiefly granted at present? Would it be possible to allow a certain amount of leave to those whose homes have not yet been bombed, and who live in danger areas?

  GERMAN PRISONERS OF WAR (SEATS ON TRAINS)
  Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that his Department is ordering special trains for German prisoners on the basis of one seat per prisoner; and, in order that the British public and soldiers on leave may enjoy a fair share of the accommodation and locomotive power available, whether he will give instructions that in future accommodation is to be provided on the basis of one seat per two prisoners.
  Sir J. Griggg: I sympathise with the hon. Member's suggestion. But in order to maintain proper control of the prisoners with the minimum number of guards it is essential that they should all be seated, and I regret, therefore, that the hon. Member's suggestion is not practicable.
  Mr. Keeling: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that on the Continent British prisoners are satisfactorily guarded by the enemy in trucks—quarante hommes per truck—and will he reconsider this matter, which really is arousing considerable public indignation?
  Sir H. Morris-Jones: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his colleagues in this House have to stand in railway corridors for hours on end; and why is this preferential treatment given to German prisoners of war?
  Sir J. Grigg: It is in the interest of guarding them for the State.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Trade Associations
    Mr. Graham Whiteasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will consider the appointment of a committee to investigate the practices and functions of trade associations, having regard to the reference to this matter in the White Paper on Unemployment Cmd. 6527.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Dalton): I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which the Deputy Prime Minister gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke (Mr. Ellis Smith) on Thursday last.

    Children's Plimsolls
    Mr. Hyndasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the serious shortage of children's gymnasium shoes; and whether he will con-

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    sider relaxing the restrictions with a view to enabling reasonable supplies of such shoes to be obtainable through the schools.
    Mr. Dalton: The shortage of children's plimsolls is due to the scarcity of labour and materials for making them. I have been giving this matter my close attention, and I hope it may be possible to supplement the small home production by some additional supplies from overseas.

    Clothing Ration (New Period)
    Mrs. Adamsonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is yet in a position to state what the clothing ration will be after the 1st August.
    Mr. Dalton: Yes, Sir. As the House will realise, there can be no question at the present critical stage of the war of diverting labour and materials from the direct war effort, including the clothing and equipment of the Armed Forces, in order to increase the production of civilian clothing. But after a close study of prospective supplies, I have decided that it will be possible to maintain the basic ration at the present rate of four coupons a month for a further six months, that is from 1st August to 1st February, 1945. Twenty-four coupons in the new clothing book will, therefore, be valid as from 1st August. I am glad to say that I am able to continue in the next rationing period all the present supplements for children and also the present industrial supplements. All the clothing coupons in the current 1943–44 book and the 1942–43 book will remain valid.
    Mrs. Adamson: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his reply, may I ask if he will consider a revision in the interests of children, because mothers are having a terrible struggle to make the ration do?
    Mr. Dalton: It would give me very great pleasure if I could see my way to use more supplies, when they come along, to give increased allowances but at the present moment we must make do with what we have.
    Captain Duncan: Has my right hon. Friend seen a report in the Press of the statement by Mr. Donald Nelson that in America they are making arrangements for increased supplies to civilians? Will he see that England is not behind America in this?
    Mr. Dalton: Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will send me the report, or give me the reference, as I have not noticed it.

    North-East Coast (New Factories)
    Miss Wardasked the President of the Board of Trade the percentage of new factories which will provide peace-time employment which have been established on the North-East coast since the outbreak of war.
    Mr. Dalton: I hope that the answer will turn out to be a hundred per cent.
    Miss Ward: May I remind my right hon. Friend that "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"? What is the position up to date, because indications are not very good.
    Mr. Dalton: The position to-day is that all these new factories are being fully used, mostly of course, for war production. My hope is that after the war they will all continue to be fully used for various purposes of peace production. These new factories are very much better than the old factories and there should be no difficulty in their being fully used.
    Miss Ward: Then may I have an answer to my Question—what percentage of the factories have been put up on the North-East coast compared with the rest of the country?
    Mr. Dalton: That was not the Question put by my hon. Friend. She asked what was the percentage of new factories established on the North-East coast which would provide peace-time employment. I said I hoped the answer was that 100 per cent. would be used for peace-time employment.

    Development Areas (Shipbuilding)
    Mr. A. Edwardsasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he proposes to take in, connection with the ban on shipbuilding placed on sites purchased by Shipbuilding Securities, Limited, so that certain development areas could revive their native industries.
    Mr. Dalton: I am in consultation with my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty and my Noble Friend the Minister of War Transport on the future of shipbuilding with special reference to employment in the Development Areas.
    Mr. Edwards: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the action of Shipbuilding

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    Securities, Limited, apart from the damage it did in other parts of the country, completely blotted out the shipbuilding industry on the Tees and, in the national emergency, some yards had to be brought into being again? Will he give an undertaking that he will not allow that 40 years' ban to operate after the war?
    Mr. Dalton: I have already said that I am in consultation with my two right hon. Friends who are primarily concerned. What we must aim at, of course, is a large and stable shipbuilding programme after the war but it must be planned, having regard to geographical and all other circumstances.
    Mr. Edwards: Can the President of the Board of Trade give an undertaking that a ban of this kind shall not be allowed to operate in a specific district? I understood that he had already done that in a previous speech.
    Mr. Dalton: No pre-war bans would operate against a new decision of the Government taken after careful consideration with a view to getting a stable shipbuilding programme in this country. I have already said I am in consultation with my two right hon. Friends with that end in view.
    Mr. Neil Maclean: May I ask whether any programme of that kind which may be put into operation dealing with a ban placed upon shipbuilding in certain places by this Company will be brought before this House for discussion, and not be allowed to operate as a mandate from a strong body of shipbuilding owners?
    Mr. Dalton: I have no doubt that the future of shipbuilding will be the subject of discussion in this House at a suitable moment. I think it would be a very suitable topic for discussion, but the plans are not yet ready.

  CHILDREN'S ALLOWANCES
  Mrs. Adamsonasked the Minister without Portfolio whether he has considered the widespread view that children's allowances should be paid direct to the mother and if he proposes to include this in the Government's scheme.
  The Minister without Portfolio (Sir William Jowitt): I must ask my hon. Friend to await the publication of she promised White Paper.
  Mrs. Adamson: While accepting that answer, may I ask my right hon. and learned Friend whether he will make representations to the Government that these allowances must be paid to the mother, otherwise there will be resentment?
  Sir W. Jowitt: The Government are very well aware of that point of view.

  RESETTLEMENT ADVICE OFFICES
  Major Vyvyan Adamsasked the Minister of Labour whether any advisers from the Navy, Army or Air Force will be included on the Resettlement Advice Office; and whether he will organise this assistance on a regional or county basis.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Tomlinson): As regards the first part of the Question my Department is in consultation with the three Service Departments and no decision has yet been reached. As regards the second part of the Question, it is at present contemplated that Resettlement Advice Offices should be established in every town in which there is an Employment Exchange and should be controlled Regionally.
  Major Adams: Will my hon. Friend remember that Service representatives might well make a useful contribution? For example, is he aware that faculties of certain tradesmen often come to light during their war service which have been hidden during their previous civilian life?
  Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, that is the reason for the consultations.

  INDIA (OFFICERS, FAMILY ALLOWANCES)
  Mr. Leslieasked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that junior officers in India have not yet received increased family allowances nor received increases as a set off to the Indian Government income tax; and will he see that these matters are rectified without further delay.
  The Secretary of State for India (Mr. Amery): I have been in consultation with the Government of India on the question of applying the recent increases in family allowances to British officers of both the British and Indian Services in India. Action has now been sanctioned and I have no doubt the Government of India

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  will shortly issue the necessary orders. Orders regarding the special allowances which were recently approved were issued in India on 29th April and I have no doubt that the British Paymaster in India has already taken the necessary action.
  Mr. Leslie: Is the Minister aware that officers who have recently arrived in India from this country have already had their allowances, while officers who have been in India for some time have not yet had theirs? I have received a cable within the last fortnight stating that that is the position.
  Mr. Amery: It may depend on a particular station. These increases have not yet been universally effected.
  Miss Ward: Will these apply to our military missions in other countries on Indian rates of pay?
  Mr. Amery: If my hon. Friend will read the answer, she will find that the increases in family allowances apply to officers in both the British and Indian Services.

  HOTEL, NORTH-WEST ENGLAND (CHARGES)
  Sir H. Williamsasked the Minister of Food whether he will make inquiries into the complaint of a resident in Southern England who sought to send his wife and three young children to stay at a medium class hotel in North-West England and was asked to pay £3 3s. a day for board and lodging, to sleep out, with a condition that at least payment for one month had to be made in advance.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Mr. Mabane): Yes, Sir, if my hon. Friend will furnish me with the necessary particulars.
  Sir H. Williams: Having regard to the fact that I sent to the Department the other day the name and address of the hotel, and the name and address of the person on whom the proposed infliction was to be imposed, can my right hon. Friend say why he now asks me for information?
  Mr. Mabane: Because I have no knowledge of such a letter, and often I have found that suggestions are not in accordance with facts.
  Sir H. Williams: But having regard to the fact that I sent the letter last Thursday or Friday, surely the Department ought to have received it by now?
  Mr. Mabane: It has not been received by me.
  Sir H. Williams: I sent it to the Board of Trade.
  Mr. Mabane: I am not at the Board of Trade.
  Sir H. Williams: I tabled the Question to the Board of Trade as they are responsible for goods and prices. The Board of Trade transferred it to the Ministry of Food, but apparently failed to send on the necessary communication.

  ARCHITECTS (POST-GRADUATE COURSES)
  Mr. Bossomasked the President of the Board of Education whether he will cause to be started a series of postgraduate courses for trained architects who are already substantially informed on town and country planning so that there will be a force of able professional men available to advise local authorities on their town and country planning work.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education (Mr. Ede): I am informed that the majority of the facilities which my right hon. Friend enumerated in his letter of the 29th May, 1943, to the hon. Member are still in existence. Under present conditions it does not appear to me that the establishment of a new series of courses is called for.
  Mr. Bossom: Will my right hon. Friend convey to the Minister the fact that there are not sufficient of these to provide the men who will be absolutely indispensable to carry out the work?
  Mr. Ede: If applications are received for courses, we shall give the matter our most sympathetic consideration and endeavour to arrange them.
  Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Would it not be better to arrange courses for untrained architects who make themselves a perfect nuisance by dabbling in things they do not understand?

  SERVICE PAY AND ALLOWANCES
  Miss Wardasked the Prime Minister if he can make a statement regarding an increase in dependants' allowances and

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  the elimination of anomalies for members of His Majesty's Forces.
  Mr. Graham Whiteasked the Prime Minister if he is now in a position to state what action His Majesty's Government proposes for the removal of anomalies in pay and allowances of all ranks in the Services.
  The Prime Minister: Since the reply is inevitably long and detailed, covering a number of points, I propose to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Miss Ward: Might I ask my right hon. Friend, in view of this decision, whether there will be an opportunity of asking supplementary questions or, if the report is not satisfactory, shall we have an opportunity of discussing it in the House? Otherwise circulation of the answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT will be a disadvantage.
  The Prime Minister: If the report gives ground for other questions being put down, they can be answered on another day. When I see the lengthy answer, I think I would be wasting the time of the House, and it would be very unfair to other hon. Members who wish to ask Questions, if I were to read the reply.
  Following is the statement:
  As promised in the House, careful consideration has been given by the Departments concerned to the various questions raised in the course of the informal discussions which took place following the debate of the 2nd March. It has been decided to make certain further changes in addition to the major alterations in pay, family allowances and war pensions which were announced in the recent White Paper (Command 6521).
  Following a review of the present scheme of dependants' allowances, the conditions which govern eligibility for an allowance, and the amount of any allowance granted, have been modified. Hitherto no allowance has been payable if the household income, after payment of rent and rates, and after allowing for various "disregards," amounted to an average of 17s. or more a week for each member of the household (children under the age of 14 counting as half units). This rule has now been abolished. Moreover, no allowance has hitherto been payable which would raise the net average income for each member of the household, including the allowance, above 21s. a week.
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  This limit has now been raised to 23s. a week. In addition, payment of the maximum rate of allowance of 25s. a week will no longer be confined to cases where the dependant's household has no other income. The effect of these changes is to increase both the field of dependants eligible for an allowance, and the number of eligible dependants who will qualify for the higher rates of allowance, including the maximum rate of 25s. a week.
  In addition to the improvements in War Service Grants already announced, a relaxation has now been made in the rule (set out in Command 6318 of 1941) under which, in addition to the qualifying allotment, a soldier was expected to contribute to the support of his family four-sevenths of the amount by which his pay exceeded 4s. a day. This limit was later raised to 45. 6d. a day, and now it has been decided to raise it to 5s. 6d. a day. The broad effect of this change will be that no soldier below the rank of corporal will in future be expected, for the purposes of war service grants, to supplement his qualifying allotment from his pay unless he is on special or trade rates. The closer approximation of the schemes of qualifying allotment to a common pattern has enabled this 5s. 6d. point to be taken for war service grants purposes in the case of all three Services alike.
  The rates of ration allowance for women members of the Forces, when not provided with Service rations, have hitherto been at four-fifths of the corresponding men's rates, in view of the lower scale of provision in kind which experience shows to be suitable in the case of women. It has now, however, been decided that where women members of the Forces are under the necessity of buying their own meals, for instance in catering establishments, this distinction should no longer be drawn and the women's rates of ration allowance have accordingly been brought up to the rates payable to men in corresponding circumstances. It has moreover been decided, as a war measure to meet present conditions in this country, that where A.T.S. and W.A.A.F. officers are on the lodging list or billeted and unable to be dining members of a mess, a special supplementary board and lodging allowance of 2s. a day shall be granted. This increase in the allowances available for their board and lodging takes account of the considerations that while their expenses on

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  board and lodging are much the same as those of men officers, the pay of women officers is lower than that of men officers, that their normal contribution from their pay to their expenses when in mess is generally less, and that they are not eligible for servant allowance. The naval system of lodging and provision allowance is different, but a suitable adjustment will be made there also.
  The present rates of outfit allowance granted to officers on first appointment to a commission are £55 and £45 according to whether they are required to possess two suits of service dress or only one suit of service dress with one suit of battle dress. It has been decided to ease the position of newly commissioned officers by making an all-round increase of in these rates. This increase of £5 will apply also to A.T.S. and W.A.A.F. officers on first appointment. Further consideration is being given to the position of W.R.N.S. officers in view of the special circumstances of that Service.
  Sympathetic consideration has been given to the representations which have been made regarding some aspects of the present rules for the compensation of officers in respect of the loss of kit from Service causes. It is hoped to introduce certain improvements on the present provision in the near future.
  It has been represented that hardship is sometimes occasioned to personnel who are granted compassionate leave for urgent private reasons and who have hitherto had to pay their own fares through having exhausted their annual entitlement of four free leave travel warrants. It has now been decided that where compassionate leave is granted and the annual entitlement to free warrants has been exhausted an additional free warrant may be granted in suitable cases. This concession applies to junior officers as well as to other ranks.
  The rules under which officers relinquish acting and temporary rank have been reviewed. The general principle governing the grant of acting or temporary rank in the Army in time of war is that an officer should receive the pay of the rank in which he is employed. It follows that unless two (or more) officers are to be paid for the same job acting or temporary rank must be relinquished when the officer ceases to perform the duties of the rank in question. Approval
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  has nevertheless already been given for the retention by an Army officer of temporary rank, notwithstanding that he has been replaced in an appointment, on being posted overseas until he joins his new unit; or for a period of three months while absent from duty on account of wounds; or for a period of two months during other sickness; or on courses of instruction. In addition, acting rank may be retained during absence from duty on account of sickness up to 28 days, or on account of wounds, for a period of three months. Army officers will in future be allowed to retain paid acting or temporary rank for a maximum period of four months when absent from duty on account of either wounds or sickness. The rules in the Navy and R.A.F., which are not exactly the same as the Army rules, will be amended so as to ensure that officers of all three services participate equally in this concession.
  These changes complete the special review of service conditions which has just been undertaken, though, as indicated by the Secretary of State for War in the Debate of the 2nd March, conditions of service in general are kept under close study by the responsible Departments, and by the Ministers in charge of those Departments, with a view to making such adjustments as may appear necessary or desirable from time to time.

  SOCIAL INSURANCE (WHITE PAPER)
  Mr. Tinkerasked the Prime Minister when a Report will be given to the House on the Beveridge plan of social reform and the part bearing on old age pensions.
  The Prime Minister: The Government have completed the preparation of the White Paper embodying their proposals for social insurance generally, for a system of family allowances and for replacing the existing system of workmen's compensation by a new scheme. It is their present intention to publish the White Paper in time for it to be discussed when Parliament reassembles after the Recess.
  Mr. Tinker: Is there any reference in the White Paper to old age pensions, which is an important issue?
  The Prime Minister: Certainly. It is a gigantic scheme.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Floating Debt (Conversion)
    Mr. Stokesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of His Majesty's Government's declared policy to revert eventually to the system of fluctuating short-term interest rates, he will give an assurance that it is not his intention to convert, before that change of policy is effected, the Treasury's short-term indebtedness into long-term loans bearing higher rate of interest.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Anderson): As explained in my reply on 6th July to two questions by my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton (Mr. Craven Ellis), there is no such declared policy. In any case, it would be imprudent to start making declarations now as to the policy likely to be followed in regard to the conversion of floating debt.
    Mr. Stokes: That being so, does not the Chancellor think it most unwise to allow the banks to continue to divert their Treasury deposit receipts into long-term loans bearing higher rate of interest?
    Sir J. Anderson: No, Sir, I think it is a most prudent course.
    Mr. Stokes: In view of the most unsatisfactory nature of the reply, and other replies I have received lately from the Chancellor, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

    Share Sales
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer which official initiates prosecution under Sub-section (2) (a) of Clause 33 of the Finance Bill; who are the judges of innocent or guilty sellers of shares; to whom can an appeal be made; and who makes the final decision against which there is no appeal.
    Sir J. Anderson: The provisions of Clause 33 of the Finance Bill amend the provisions of Section 35 of the Finance Act, 1941, and if my hon. Friend will refer to Section 35 he will see that it rests with the Commissioners of Inland Revenue if they think fit to issue directions under the Section. Any person aggrieved by a direction is entitled to appeal to the Special Commissioners of Income Tax, who may cancel or vary the direction. The decision of the Special Commissioners on appeal is final and
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    conclusive except on a question of law, when it is open to either party to the appeal to require a case to be stated for the opinion of the High Court.

    Banks (Capital)
    Mr. Stokesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether new money created in the form of credit by the banks is regarded as capital employed in the business, and whether the interest thereon is, therefore, for the purpose of calculating profits, allowable free of Excess Profits Tax.
    Sir J. Anderson: In computing for Excess Profits Tax purposes the capital employed by a bank all assets and liabilities which are required under Excess Profits Tax law to be taken into account in computing capital are duly brought into the reckoning including the credits ma de by the bank; but the assets represented by these credits would be offset by corresponding liabilities. A growth in credits would not, therefore, result in any increase in the capital employed and the interest received by the bank would not be offset by an allowance for increased capital.
    Mr. Stokes: In view of the fact that the rate of interest allowable on increased capital employed in businesses is higher than the rate of interest received by the banks on their loans, does it not stand to reason that any increase of capital employed by banks is allowed free of E.P.T.?
    Sir J. Anderson: Any increase of capital is allowable but, as I have pointed out, no increase would be allowed in respect of the assets to which my hon. Friend refers in his Question.
    Mr. Stokes: Then the more new money the banks create the more profit they can get free of E.P.T.?
    Sir J. Anderson: I would ask my hon. Friend to ponder over the carefully phrased reply I have given to his Question. If any further question arises in his mind perhaps he would transfer it to the Order Paper.
    Mr. Gallacher: Will not the Chancellor seriously consider taking over the banks, nationalising them?

    Treasury Bills
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can indicate in what categories Treasury Bills are dis-

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    tributed among individuals, groups, institutions, foreign or Colonial Governments.
    Sir J. Anderson: Apart from those held by public departments and the Issue Department of the Bank of England, Treasury Bills are distributed mainly between the home banks, overseas banks and the discount market. Since the Bills are issued in bearer form and are subject to frequent changes of ownership, it is not possible to give figures for the different categories.
    Mr. Woodburn: Could the Chancellor explain how it is that in his Budget speech he said that banks did not hold Treasury Bills, if my recollection is correct, and why, according to this information, these Bills are held by the banks?
    Sir J. Anderson: What I said, or intended to say, in my Budget speech was that the Bills are not held in substantial quantity by the clearing banks.

    Loans to Local Authorities
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, under the post-war cheap money policy announced by the Government, he will give an assurance that the necessary loans for housing and other local government development will be arranged on the same low rates as have applied to the financing of the war.
    Sir J. Anderson: It will certainly be one of the objects of the policy of cheap money that necessary loans for housing and for other local government purposes should be raised as cheaply as possible.
    Mr. Woodburn: The Chancellor has declared on behalf of the Government that a cheap money policy is to be pursued after the war. Can he give any assurance to local authorities that in housing and other development plans they will have cheap money in the sense in which it has been used during the war?
    Sir J. Anderson: That was the effect of the answer I have just given.
    Mr. A. Edwards: Does that mean that rates of interest for housing loans will be no higher than for War Loan?
    Sir J. Anderson: I did not say that. I said they would have the benefit of the cheap money if there happens to be a
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    to enter into consultations with the representatives of local authorities in the immediate future.
    Mr. A. Bevan: Does the Chancellor intend to give special instructions to the Public Works Loans Board in this matter?
    Sir J. Anderson: It is quite likely, but I do not want to anticipate the discussions into which I am about to enter.
    Mr. A. Hopkinson: Can the Chancellor say whether it will be possible to have cheap money if there happens to be a Socialist Government?
    Mr. Stokes: Did not the Chancellor declare the other day that the Government's post-war policy for cheap money was limited to the immediate post-war period?
    Sir J. Anderson: No, I did not. If my hon. Friend will refer to what I said, he will see that it was not that.

  LIBERATED FRANCE (CURRENCY ARRANGEMENTS)
  Mr. Graham Whiteasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is now in a position to make a statement with regard to the currency arrangements in liberated France.
  Sir J. Anderson: I cannot at present add anything to the answer on this subject given on 5th July by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.

  OFFICER PRISONERS OF WAR, GERMANY (SHOOTING)
  Wing-Commander Jamesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, since the recent murders of R.A.F. and other officer prisoners by the Gestapo took place under circumstances that prove the compliance of the Luftwaffe, who were the responsible camp authority, His Majesty's Government will make it clear that, as well as the Gestapo, they intend to bring to book for this crime the appropriate Luftwaffe senior officers and that, if any outrages occur in connection with Wehrmacht or Kriegsmarine prison camps, they intend to hold the chiefs of those services responsible also.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Hall): The resolve of His Majesty's Government to

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  track down and bring to exemplary justice the perpetrators of such crimes applies to all persons, whatever their rank and whether or not they are members of the German armed forces, who may be found to bear responsibility for the crime either as instigators or as actual perpetrators.

  ARGENTINE RAILWAYS (BRITISH INVESTMENTS)
  Sir Frank Sandersonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the importance in the national interests of conserving our remaining overseas investments, he will give the utmost support to the British directors of the Argentine railways, who propose shortly to make a further visit to the Argentine, with a view to securing agreement on a national plan of reorganisation and giving a reasonable return on the British capital invested.
  Mr. George Hall: I would refer my hon. Friend to the replies returned by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary on 21st June to a Question and supplementary question by the hon. Member for the Central Division of Bristol (Lady Apsley). I understand that the boards of the companies have not yet completed their examination of the visiting directors' conclusions and it would, therefore, still be premature for any comment to be made on them. My right hon. Friend is, however, well aware of the importance of the financial interests involved which can, in general, count on the fullest support from His Majesty's Government.
  Sir F. Sanderson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the prime causes of the financial difficulties are their depreciation of their currency in 1932, and the imposition of a surcharge on remittances to this country? Does he not consider that with good will on both sides a more equitable adjustment could be made, which would ultimately prove to the advantage of both countries?
  Mr. Hall: A conference was held between representatives of the directors in this country and myself with the Foreign Office I think my hon. Friend will be well advised to leave the matter where it is, because they are well aware of the difficulties.
  Mr. A. Bevan: Is my right hon. Friend aware that an organisation, speaking for
  1578
  these directors in this country, protested at the higher rates in the Argentine being used to give higher wages to the railway workers, and said that higher dividends ought to be paid?
  Mr. Hall: I have no knowledge of that.
  Mr. Stokes: Are not the Argentine Government merely following the very bad example set by His Majesty's Government in Italy?

  BOMBED TOWNS (ANTIQUARIAN FINDS)
  Mr. Bossomasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, whether he will consider sending an advice to all local authorities, with jurisdiction over bombed towns of historic interest, asking them in their reconstruction work to instruct all contractors doing work locally to give any finds of antiquarian interest they may make to the local museum for safe keeping and take special care that such objects are not needlessly destroyed or stolen in the progress of the work.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Hicks): The Ancient Monuments Section of my Ministry is in close touch with all such local authorities, but I will certainly consider my hon. Friend's suggestion. Finds do not belong to contractors but to the owners of the sites unless the finds are treasure trove.
  Mr. Bossom: Might I suggest that file owners of these things should give them to the public and not keep them for themselves?
  Mr. Hicks: A very great deal of work is done by antiquarian societies in conjunction with local authorities. I can assure the hon. Member that the matter is being very closely watched.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Arthur Greenwood: Has the Leader of the House any statement to make as to the course of Business to-day and to-morrow?
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): It may be for the convenience of the House if I say now that the Government do not propose to take the Committee stage of the Money

1579
Resolution for the Town and Country Planning Bill to-morrow. We think the whole of the two days will be required for the Debate on the Second Reading, and therefore the Money Resolution will be taken at a later date.

PERSONAL STATEMENTS
Mr. Tinker: May I ask that a correction may be made in the report of the Debate on war pensions on Friday? When the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Lansdale (Sir I. Fraser) was speaking on parents' pensions, I intervened to make the following statement:
"We are not asking for a pension for all time. We are asking that it should be given up to the age of 26, or something like that."
The report in HANSARD reads:
"We are not asking for a pension for all time. We are asking that it should be given up to 26 weeks, or something like that."
I ask the House to allow the correction to be made.
Captain Cunningham-Reid: I desire to make a personal explanation. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Wellingborough (Wing-Commander James) is concerned, and I have given him notice of my intention. Last week the hon. and gallant Gentleman, while I was in a nursing home, without giving me notice, made a personal attack upon me. He asked you, Sir, if you were aware that since alerts had been sounded in Southern England the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for St. Marylebone had not been in his place. You, Sir, and other Members of this House were good enough to voice your objection to such defamation of a fellow Member. This personal attack, which was not only mean but, as I am about to show, also untrue, appeared in the Press throughout the country. This kind of damaging publicity, unlike the flying bomb, it is impossible to catch up with and destroy, especially as a denial has not the same news value as the original accusation made behind the privileged skirts of this House. Thousands of people will never get to hear that the accusation that they originally heard about, that ever since the arrival of the flying bomb I had absented myself from the House of Commons, was not only a lie but that it was
1580
said at a time when I was unable to answer back.
The following are the facts. Every week since the flying bombs have been over the South of England I have been in the House of Commons with the exception of the last seven Parliamentary days, when I was in a nursing home. You, Sir, will no doubt recollect my discussing with you in that very Chair, soon after an alert, the question of the Ministry of Information Vote which was coming on the following week. Incidentally, during those early weeks of the flying bomb I have no recollection of seeing in the House the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Wellingborough, but I for my part have no burning desire to do him an injustice and I feel that he must have been lurking somewhere in the House, as otherwise he could not, by throwing a stone at someone else, have drawn attention to his own gallant interpretation of "The boy stood on the burning deck."
Wing-Commander James: It is true that the hon. and gallant Gentleman gave me notice, about two minutes ago, that he was going to raise this matter. I do not desire to waste the time of the House at this juncture. I would suggest that the real procedure would be for him to seek one of his not infrequent Adjournment Motions——
Hon. Members: Apologise!
Mr. Speaker: There is always the danger in a personal statement, that personal recriminations come in and, unless the hon. and gallant Gentleman wishes merely to withdraw or not withdraw, he had better not say anything about it.
Wing-Commander James: In that case I may well have been misinformed in this instance and, if that is the case, I apologise.

VOTE OF CREDIT (SUPPLEMENTARY), 1944 (EXPENDITURE ARISING OUT OF THE WAR).
Estimate presented of the further Sum required to be voted towards defraying the expenses which may be incurred during the year ending on 31st March, 1945, for general Navy, Army and Air services and supplies in so far as specific provision is not made therefor by Parliament; for securing the public safety, the

1581
defence of the realm, the maintenance of public order and the efficient prosecution of the war; for maintaining supplies and services essential to the life of the community; for relief and rehabilitation in areas brought under the control of any of the United Nations; and generally for all expenses, beyond those provided for in the ordinary grants of Parliament, arising out of the existence of a state of war [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 92.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS
That they have agreed to:

Finance Bill

Parliamentary Elections (War-time Registration) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (North Lindsey Water Board) Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Warrington) Bill.

North-West Midlands Joint Electricity Authority Provisional Order Bill and

London County Council [Money] Bill, without Amendment.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled "An Act to amend the Government of India Act, 1935, in certain respects." [India (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill [Lords.]
Also a Bill, intituled "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the borough of Workington." [Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Workington) Bill [Lords.]

INDIA (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL [Lords]
Read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 37.]
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (WORKINGTON) BILL [Lords]
Read the First time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
BILL PRESENTED
  ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL,
  "to amend the law with respect to customs in the Isle of Man"; presented by Mr. Assheton; to be read a Second time upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 36].
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  The Minister of Town and Country Planning (Mr. W. S. Morrison): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  In opening this discussion I should like to try to put this Bill in its proper place——
  Dr. Haden Guest: In the wastepaper basket.
  Mr. Morrison: —in the picture of town and country planning. It is evident from the mirth opposite that hon. Members do not see it in relation to its proper background. Some of the criticism that I have heard arises from an honest failure to appreciate the objectives of this limited but still ambitious thrust into very difficult territory. It is called the Town and Country Planning Bill and is another in the series of Bills which have borne that Title. The first Bill of that name, it is interesting to note, was introduced in 1931 by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. A. Greenwood). Political events not connected with the Bill prevented him from seeing it on to the Statute Book. The same Bill, however, was introduced by the succeeding Administration, and became law as the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932. That Act, of 58 Sections and six Schedules, remains the foundation of the code of town and country planning. It provides an elaborate machinery for the making of planning schemes whereby the activities of private owners are organised, so as to result in a pattern of land use which is in the public interest. This time last year this House, at my invitation, passed the Act of 1943, also a Town and Country Planning Bill when introduced, which, while founded upon the Act of 1932, made the application of the 1932 Act mandatory over the whole country and gave increased powers to planning authorities, central and local, which are strong enough not only to prevent undesirable development but also to encourage desirable development. These two Acts together constitute the planning code.
  1592
  Under them planning authorities are set up with certain statutory powers and duties, and they have made and are making plans. On their activities, and on those of my Ministry, depend the future lay-out and pattern of town and country. We shall have to overhaul in due course the planning machinery proper, in the light of experience, and, in particular, we shall have to deal with the question of compensation and betterment, which is such an important feature in the whole problem.
  The Bill now before the House deals with a separate and limited, but a novel and formidable, problem. Hitherto, the planning code has provided for restrictions upon the use to which owners might put their land. Land might be zoned under the existing code for various purposes, such as residences at various densities, private and public open spaces, industry, shops, and so on. All these powers are now in the existing code and are being actively exercised by planning authorities. The machinery needs overhauling, and this will be the next step after this Bill, in the legislative programme. Meanwhile, the war has brought about the problem of the bombed city and the necessity for its reconstruction as soon as possible after the war. No one, I imagine, thinks that it would be good enough simply to rebuild things as they were. Everyone would like to see their reconstruction on a scale more gracious, with better buildings, safer streets, less crowding and better conditions generally for the health and happiness of the people. If this redevelopment on a new and better pattern in bombed cities is to take place, it is necessary that the land which has suffered very extensive war damage should be acquired by the local planning authority in order that it may be developed as a whole. In these devastated areas it is not possible to reconstruct properly unless the area is acquired together with the adjacent land necessary to make a good job of the project as a whole; also, it is necessary to acquire at the same time land which is needed to accommodate those whom the reconstruction may remove from the area.
  There are three main features in the task of reconstructing an area of this kind which the House should bear in mind. First, a great deal of the land will be required for public purposes if the full life of the community is to regain its natural

  1593
  momentum as quickly as possible after the war. The public purposes are open spaces, roads, car-parks, school sites and public buildings of various kinds. Second, the existing plots of land in the sites, would not fit into that development, in accordance with the new and better plan. They may be small, oddly shaped or unsuitably arranged in relation to each other, and the existing plots could not conform to the attempt to achieve a better and safer street pattern. Third, the long growth of our urban communities has led to a proliferation of interests in the bombed land which has to be seen to be believed. For example, in one part of a central district of Portsmouth, measuring only 30 acres, there are over 500 interests of all kinds involved in the land. The conclusion is that the proper redevelopment of the bomb-damaged and obsolete areas can only be achieved if the interests are amalgamated in one ownership and then redistributed in accordance with the approved plan. It has long been conceded that there are certain purposes of planning which cannot be achieved without this process. It was recognised in Section 25 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, and in the Housing Act, 1936, with its plan for re-development areas to relieve overcrowding. The bomb has added a new and challenging case to this whole procedure.
  So much is, I think, agreed, but the carrying out of the purposes which I have indicated demands legislation with the following objects in view. First, powers to acquire the land must be conferred, if necessary, by compulsion. Local authorities possess various powers to acquire land by agreement and by compulsion under various private and public Acts, but they have no powers adequate for this purpose. Second, the powers of acquisition must be expedited and simplified and brought into line with the novel purposes which they will have to serve. Third, there must be a direction as to the price to be paid for the land to prevent speculative values over pre-war values attaching to the land which is necessary. Fourth, there must be assistance from national funds to aid those cities which have been chosen by the enemy as his target. It is to these complicated and formidable tasks that the Bill is directed. There is one more that I have not yet mentioned, namely, the provision of powers to local planning authori-
  1594
  ties, not only to reconstruct bad development, but themselves to engage in creating good development. I think that this is a big enough mouthful for us to be getting on with to-day. The planning code and the powers of planning authorities rest for the moment on the Acts of 1932 and 1943.
  This is a Bill to empower local authorities to acquire land for certain planning purposes, in the main for the reconstruction of bombed sites and, as opportunity allows, for the reconstruction of those urban areas which have suffered, not from the enemy, but from bad lay-out and from the tooth of time. A great part of the Bill is directed to the new procedure to enable this to be done in a quicker and simpler manner. Perhaps I may help the House to understand what is a technical and difficult matter. It has been objected against the proposed new code in the Bill that it provides variants of procedure. Why not, it is asked, find out one form of procedure and make it generally applicable to all these transactions? That is a very natural question, but the attitude of mind behind it has failed to grasp the immense variety presented by our bombed cities and towns. We have cases where the need of action is clear, and these are provided for in Clause 2, Sub-section (2) of the Bill. From that extreme we get a shading off by imperceptible degrees to areas where the damage is less total and where by a corollary there is still, among much damage, property still in beneficial occupation. The property may consist of small freehold houses bought through the building societies, or under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act through local authorities. It is in those areas where complete devastation is diluted by blocks of such houses and buildings that the local authorities would like to set about the matter at a quicker pace than their present powers allow. It is a great mistake, in my judgment, to believe that we can confer any boon upon local authorities by giving them powers which look well enough on paper, but which, in their daily contact with their citizens, they are reluctant to use. Our experience of slum clearance legislation convinced me of that long ago. Some authorities have made use of that legislation. Others have not done so because it was too rigid and too drastic for them to enforce against fellow citizens. We have tried here to present to the House a code which is flexible

  1595
  enough to meet the varied facts of the situation while allowing a speed of acquisition which local authorities think with their local knowledge, they would like to, and can, enforce.
  To the question "Why not one procedure?" the short answer is that one procedure would either be too quick for some authorities to be willing to work it, in their circumstances, or too slow for the necessities of others. When we come to consider the new procedure which we should adopt, to make these powers speedily effective, we find that delays, in the present system, occur at two stages in compulsory acquisition. Those two stages are, first, the procedure for getting the order for compulsory purchase, and, if you have got the order, the second stage is the actual completion of the purchase. The Bill simplifies all this procedure. Let us take the first stage first, that of obtaining the order. If you look at that, you find that the delays occur through two causes. First is the process of referencing and, secondly, the necessity for public inquiry. As to referencing, the facts are that under the present law, before an authority can apply for a compulsory purchase order, it must compile a book of reference, showing the owner of each interest in the land affected. This is a very laborious task. It has, in certain cases, taken over two years to complete this book, and all this has to be done before the authority can even apply for its powers of compulsory purchase. I am indebted to the London County Council for an instance showing not only the time but the labour which is involved in this referencing process. They tell me that their experience is, over a wide range of cases, that referencing of owners requires six men for six acres for six weeks. Thus, to reference the owners in an area of 1,500 acres in six weeks, would entail a temporary staff of 1,500 men. It is hard to see where this staff can be found at the present time. The Bill recognises this difficulty. It recognises also that in the case both of war damaged and obsolete areas, this requirement has outlived its usefulness. By the First Schedule, the requirement is replaced by the duty to advertise the application in the "London Gazette" and locally. This must result in a vast saving of time and is justified by the purposes of the Bill.
  1596
  When we come to the second cause of delay, the stage of public inquiry, we ought, I think, to move with more caution than some critics of the Bill appear to consider necessary. I know that these inquiries are sometimes considered as a nuisance by local executives who are genuinely keen to get on with some project in which they heartily believe. They dislike both the publicity and the delay involved, but, in my judgment, we should remember the merits of these inquiries when we resolve upon their modification. The ordinary citizen of this country likes to know what his rulers are about.
  Commander Sir Archibald Southby: Likes to, but very seldom does.
  Mr. Morrison: He likes to form his own opinion about the merits of a proposal, and he likes to be able to have his say in public before his friends and neighbours and before an independent person. Speed is not worth purchasing by any undue frustration of these desires. Indeed, it is doubtful whether, in fact, a sense of grievance arising from the mistaken notion that there is something hole-and-corner about what is taking place, makes for speed in the end. It is better, in the long run, to carry the people with you in the open. You may get a better scheme as a result—as I hope to get a better Bill from the discussions in Committee stage. This is an excellent Bill, but I do rely, quite seriously, upon useful contributions from Members of Parliament who are in contact with their constituents, and I invite their help during the Committee stage to make the Bill, good as it, still better.
  Mr. A. Bevan: If we succeed in doing it, shall we be asked to vote against our own conclusions by the Prime Minister?
  Mr. Morrison: I do not think I should be disturbed by hypothetical considerations of that sort. Having said all that about public inquiries, I would add that it seems that, in this work of reconstruction, where larger areas are being acquired than were ever before undertaken by legislation, modifications of existing procedure with regard to public inquiries are both necessary and justifiable. What the Bill proposes in this regard is this. Under Clause 1, the authority applies for its area of extensive war damage, or several areas in the case

  1597
  of a large town, to be declared subject to compulsory purchase, together with adjacent land, whether blitzed or blighted or not, round about it, which is necessary to make a satisfactory unit of redevelopment. The land required for the so-called overspill, namely, the land required to rehouse the people who will be displaced by the proposal for redevelopment from the whole area, which was probably congested—as we regard modern standards—the whole demand for land, damaged area, adjacent land and land for overspill—can thus be considered as a whole together with the proposals for its reconstruction.
  Mr. MacLaren: Would the Minister not use the word "overspill" any more?
  Mr. Morrison: I will try to find a satisfactory alternative. It is an ugly word but a convenient one. If there are any objections to the whole project, these are heard at one public inquiry, where the question is whether the project for redevelopment is right or wrong. Anyone can object on the ground that a better project would exclude his land. Once the order is made under Clause 1, the land covered by it can be acquired in rapid and progressive stages without further public inquiry. That is the procedure laid down for the typical, mixed bombed area. An exception is made for those clear cases where the need for acquisition is demonstrable, whatever may be the proposed form of reconstruction. Under Clause 2 (2) a compulsory purchase Order can be made without a previous declaration under Clause 1, and without a public inquiry.
  Captain Strickland: Would the Minister state whether that also applies to Crown lands which come within an area where a local authority desires to acquire land?
  Sir Irving Albery (Gravesend): Can the Minister also say whether a local authority can, by this machinery, acquire land adjacent to, but outside, its own area?
  Mr. Morrison: The reply to the first question is that the Bill does not refer specifically to Crown lands but that an arrangement has been made with the Crown Lands Commissioners whereby they will fall in with any project of that
  1598
  sort, where an area requires redevelopment in accordance with the proposals of the planning authority. In reply to the second question, the Bill means that in a proper case, the local planning authority can acquire land for overspill outside, its own area, if it proves its case. There is a third variant introduced—and this is the end of them—in that the Bill provides for a middle course between the extremely rapid procedure of Clause 2 (2) and the process of declaration, and it enables local authorities to carry on contemporaneously an application for the area to be declared and an application for the compulsory purchase orders within it, so that when the area is declared under Clause 1, the necessary stages towards the order for compulsory purchase have already been completed. That is in paragraph 6 of the First Schedule.
  Now I come to the second stage, where delays occur. That is the stage after the order for compulsory purchase has been made and confirmed and between that point of time and the time when the land is finally vested in the local planning authority. These provisions are, as a matter of drafting, very complicated in appearance, because they must be grafted on to the Lands Clauses Act, 1845. It has been the universal practice for nearly a century to follow the precedent of that Act, and its operation has been worked out in a great body of case law. Words are given precise and definite meanings of a technical sort, and to try to frame an entirely new code would involve an enormous volume of work. Nevertheless, expedition at this stage is also necessary, and it has been secured by the Fifth and Sixth Schedules. When the compulsory purchase order has been con-finned it must be advertised locally, with an invitation to claim compensation and to furnish particulars. The order is then registered as a local land charge and the registration operates as a notice to treat en bloc. Twenty-one days are left for challenge in the courts and then the order becomes operative. The authority may then give notice of entry on the land, leaving the question of compensation to be duly settled thereafter.
  At the same time the older form of completion is retained as an alternative. The notice to treat in this case is served individually. That is for use in appropriate cases. For example, liability for com-

  1599
  pensation for disturbance is assessed as at the date of the notice to treat, and in the case of smaller and less urgent purchases the authority might well prefer to choose that date as near as possible to the time when they are to enter. Thus the procedure has been speeded up at both stages, and the resultant new method not only is quick where speed is essential but is flexible, with variants at both stages of the process making it readily adaptable to the variations in the actual physical problem with which it is designed to deal.
  It is to be remembered—and I ask the House to pay attention to this—that what counts is smooth working in practice and not a delusive simplicity in the print of the Bill. These details of procedure can well be considered in Committee. But I would like the House to have at this stage my general justification, for it is not an apology, for a method which must increase the difficulties of hon. Members but will ease the labours of those who have to put the legislation into practice. This power to acquire the bombed areas which is conferred by the first two Clauses of the Bill form part of the Government's reconstruction programme for the period immediately succeeding the Armistice. They are limited in general, and with exceptions, to a period of five years after the passing of the Act. I think it will be the desire of everyone that as soon as we can we shall set about healing the wounds which the enemy has inflicted upon our towns and cities, and it is right that a sense of urgency should be imported into the Statute. At the same time private enterprise has its own great part to play, and from that point of view people should know as soon as is practicable whether their property is to be acquired or not. The problem of the blighted areas or, as they are defined in the Clause——
  "Areas of bad lay-out and obsolete development"
  is familiar to every one of us. [An HON. MEMBER: "Due to private enterprise."] Not always. These areas are similar to the bombed areas in that they need redevelopment as a whole, but there is this important difference: The bombed land is dead and needs resuscitation; the blighted land is still alive, though squalid, and in need of attention as soon as we can get to it. Provision is therefore made for the acquisition of these areas and the land
  1600
  necessary for the resultant overspill which may be necessary.
  I understand that some of my hon. Friends fear that the provision for overspill may involve the consumption of agricultural land which otherwise would not take place. I think otherwise. There is a long-term problem here. Nothing can be worse for the preservation of the countryside than the process, which has gone on too long, of cities dying at the centre and spreading further and further on to green land outside. It is rather like the Mad Hatter's tea party, at which if you spilt the tea in one place, you moved on to a clean place round the corner of the table. It is similar to the dust bowls which have devastated large areas of the earth's surface as a result of people working on an area, exploiting it and then moving on to another area, leaving the first one a desert. There is no ultimate policy for the preservation of the countryside from building except that of making the interiors of our cities healthier and happier places to dwell in.
  Perforce owing to the war the problem has a longer range. We shall need all the homes we have for some years after the war, and instead of pulling down houses we shall be in general striving might and main to build more. We recognise the need for dealing, in a land acquisition Bill of this sort, with the powers of local authorities which are at present defective. Therefore, they are given power to acquire the land by compulsory purchase if need be as and when they feel able to redevelop it and a public inquiry is enjoined in each disputed case. In other respects the new, expedited and flexible procedure is applied to blight as to blitz. It is eminently desirable, in my view, that these new powers of acquisition shall not be exercised piecemeal and in isolation from each other. The safeguard against this is good town planning over the whole area of a town, the parts which are to be acquired as well as those which are not. Working to such a good plan and applying the planning powers as they exist at the moment, and as we hope to improve them, as well as those of acquisition, steady progress can be made in the improvement of the whole urban community.
  Additional powers to acquire land are given by this Bill and this is the land which they cover: bomb damaged land

  1601
  and the land necessary to make a reconstruction programme round about, and also the land necessary for the overspill; blighted land and the land necessary for providing alternative accommodation for persons displaced therefrom; and also the land necessary—and this is important—for the highways which are required for both these reconstruction proposals. There is one further category of land to acquire which powers are for the first time conferred by the Bill. It is mentioned in Clause 10. The purposes for which this provision exists are these, to give a few examples.
  Mr. Denville (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central): What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by "overspill?"
  Mr. Morrison: What is meant is the land outside the area which is being reconstructed which it is necessary to take in order to supply accommodation for people who are displaced from the area which is -being reconstructed. It is additional land which local authorities can acquire as mentioned in Clauses 1 and 9. The purposes for which the power in Clause 10 is given are these. The Clause is headed
  "Power to purchase land for certain planning purposes: authorisation under normal procedure."
  The purposes are: First, to secure balanced development, that is to say, the industrial or commercial development of a town which lacks facilities of that kind. The House will remember that the Corporation of Kingston-upon-Hull recently promoted a Bill seeking this power for themselves, and I said at the time that what Hull required in this direction was also required by all the bombed cities which have suffered and resisted so gallantly. This applies to all planning authorities. Further, this Clause may be used to provide for alternative sites where redevelopment should not take place on the old sites but should, in the public interest, take place somewhere else. For example, in the case of a hospital which has been bombed it might not be the best thing for it to come back to the old site, but a hospital will be needed in the area and power is given to acquire land on which to erect the hospital if it does not come back to the original spot. Generally, the Clause can be used to enable the planning authorities to smooth out the wrinkles due to planning, reconstruction
  1602
  and the war. As this land will normally be acquired in relatively small parcels, the non-expedited procedure is imposed by the Second Schedule.
  Sir I. Albery: May I ask one question before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that point? Under all this procedure would it not be possible for a town or an authority to acquire the whole of the land in its area?
  Mr. Morrison: They have to make out a case for everything, and all this is subject to Ministerial consent. The Minister is responsible to Parliament, and any consent of that sort which was given by him would be subject to the scrutiny of the House and to proper safeguards.
  Mr. Moelwyn Hughes: Referring to the example given by the right hon. Gentleman of the substitution of a new site of a hospital for the old site, may I ask what is the meaning of the words in Clause 10, Sub-section (1, b) "or of any other operation" which follow the words "the making good of war damage"?
  Mr. Morrison: I must ask the hon. and learned Member to leave that point to the Committee stage. I think I know the answer, but I would not like to give him an inaccurate one, and I have a lot to get through in presenting the Bill to the House. Next I want to come to the disposal of the land once it is in the hands of the local planning authorities, a question which is dealt with, in the main, in Clauses 15 and 16. There will be some land which a local authority will require for its own purposes—its housing programme, roads, open spaces, schools, public buildings and so on. Much, however, will be required for other developments which will be carried out, in the main, by private enterprise, for in this work of reconstruction we must enlist the whole energies of both public and private enterprise.
  Commander Agnew: When the right hon. Gentleman speaks of roads does he include railroads and also railway stations?
  Mr. Morrison: No, Sir, those are the property of statutory undertakings. The Bill assumes that, in the main, this development will be carried out by private enterprise, shops, banks and so on, and

  1603
  it provides that the authority may dispose of land acquired normally by lease. I would draw attention to one thing in the Bill. In Clause 15, Sub-section (6), there is an important point which hon. Members may wish to have drawn to their attention with regard to this question of disposal. Sub-section (6) says:
  "The powers conferred by this Section on a local planning authority in respect of the disposal of land thereunder, and on the Minister in respect of consent to such disposal, shall be so exercised as to secure so far as may be practicable to persons who were living, or carrying on business or other activities, on land which the authority have acquired for the purposes of this Part of the Act, who desire to obtain accommodation on such land, and who are willing to comply with any requirements of the authority as to the development and use of such land, an opportunity to obtain accommodation thereon on terms settled with due regard to the price at which any such land has been acquired from them."
  That, generally, enables a local authority to dispose of land, once it has got it, without being forced to sell it to the highest bidder. It can do so without risk of surcharge; it can have regard to the desire of those previously living on the land to come back and live on it again, and it can, in charging them rent, have equitable regard to the price paid for the land.
  Further to these methods of disposing of the land, Clause 16 contains a power enabling the local planning authority to dispose of its land in a new way. Although, as I have said, it may be anticipated that the main burden of rebuilding will be borne by private enterprise, it cannot be assumed that, in the disturbed conditions of the immediate reconstruction period, private enterprise will find its way quickly enough to meet certain public needs of that period. A reserve power is, therefore, provided in this Clause for the local planning authority itself to carry out development in order to crank things up and give a lead. It may be the starting, for example, of a shopping centre in the right place, or factory premises necessary to a proper location of industry in the area. A quick start with this problem is essential. If things hang fire, not only do the public go short of facilities, but the finances of redevelopment may be seriously prejudiced. There is no reason why these properties should be less remunerative to
  1604
  the planning authority than private properties to private enterprise.
  One particular object which I have much at heart can come into being by such means. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service also has this matter much at heart—the provision of "flatted factories." Let me explain what they are. Most of the great industries of this country started at some time with someone in a backyard with a lathe, a few other tools and an idea. [An HON. MEMBER: "The Duke of Westminster."] I think the original one certainly had a very bright idea. I should greatly like to encourage the man with the idea by putting him in good surroundings in order that he may develop it, because we shall need all the ideas available in the years to come. What we want is a well-designed structure of a few storeys where a man can rent space, for a modest sum, equipped with water and electricity. This will give him a chance and prevent the backyard growing into the workshop and factory with the consequent jumble pf property which we have seen in the past. I think this enterprise should be started early, and I seek power for the national planning authority to enable the necessary steps to be taken.
  Mr. John Wilmot: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that point, has he not limited his power to give such consent to the planning authority to cases in which he is satisfied that nobody else is going to do it?
  Mr. Morrison: That is so. If my hon. Friend will reflect, he will see that it is precisely the sort of development which, perhaps, would not occur rapidly through private enterprise, but can be done as a matter of conscious development by the initiative of the public authority. I pass to another point with which I do not propose to deal at great length because it is a complex one and not, perhaps, of the same general interest.
  Mr. A. Bevan: Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether, if some organisation came forward and said it intended to establish what are called "flatted factories," that would be any objection to such a project by the local authority?
  Mr. Morrison: That is a hypothetical question. It would depend upon the reality of such a statement. If, indeed,

  1605
  somebody were prepared to come along and put up these things and conform to the planning authority's scheme there would be no objection. But if it were merely an attempt to stop the local authority from going on, that would be another matter. The House will see that, throughout the Bill there are provisions regarding statutory undertakings which will have a most important part to play in the common task of reconstruction. For the quick provision of services in the new areas there is the possibility that land of statutory undertakers may be compulsorily acquired for some overriding need. There is the necessity for undertakers to conform to a planning control. All these matters raise difficult problems. These are dealt with in the Bill and, I believe, are dealt with to the general satisfaction of both the statutory undertakers and the local planning authority, which is no mean achievement. The main point to which I would refer on this matter is that statutory undertakers are the children of Parliament and provision is made for them to come to their parent both for new powers, and for protection by means of the Provisional Order Procedure. In this connection I would remind the House of what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said recently about proposals for modifying procedure with a view to expedition.
  I come now to the contentious, but very important, topic of money, which I divide into two parts. The first part concerns how much local authorities should pay for the land which they acquire under these extended powers of compulsory acquisition. The second concerns the question how much, and to what extent and in what manner, the Exchequer should be called upon to contribute to their expense in acquiring it. I should preface my remarks by pointing out that, throughout the Bill, where the compulsory acquisition of land is authorised, so also is it made legal for the local planning authority to acquire land by agreement. If the owner is not willing to sell he must be forced to sell, but what then? The House will recollect that the Government in 1941, when people were afraid that speculation in land values above the 1939 levels would defeat the object of planning, made a statement on this subject following a Report of the Uthwatt Committee which said that they
  1606
  recommended a general principle that compensation ultimately payable in respect of public acquisition of land, or of the public control of land, should not exceed sums based on the standard of pre-war values. By "pre-war value" was meant the value at 31st March, 1939. The Government accepted the principle of the following recommendation:
  "The Committee recommend that the compensation payable in public acquisition or control of land should not exceed sums based on the standard of values at 3rst March, 1939. The Government accept this principle, and legislation to give effect to it will be introduced in due course. The detailed application of the principle requires consideration. Adjustments may be needed to meet particular cases, and the principle must be open to review if circumstances arise which makes its application inequitable. It is contemplated that the principle will remain in force for a limited period during which long-term policy for the reconstruction of town and country after the war is being settled."
  We are dealing with the problem of what the local authority should pay for the land in the case of compulsory purchase. I do not intend at this stage to spend too much time on this for we shall hear a good deal about it on Committee, and the Financial Resolution on the Paper is purposely drawn wide, so that if anyone has a better solution than that proposed by the Government, he can put it on the Paper and let us all have a look at it, and consider its effect. We can then make up our minds which of the various proposals does, in fact, work more justly than those proposed in Clauses 45 and 46 in the Bill. Whether complete, absolute and abstract justice can ever be achieved in this matter is open to doubt. To every solution that can be advanced, some objection can be raised. Let us have the views of the House in the form of Amendments. The Government have given the most careful consideration to these difficult matters and the conclusions to which they have come, and which they submit to the House, are embodied in the Bill.
  The value of a piece of land in money is determined in the open market by what John Doe is prepared to pay for it, and Richard Roe is prepared to sell it for. It is an ordinary transaction between two bargainers, one willing to buy and the other willing to sell.
  Mr. MacLaren: Who creates it?
  Mr. Morrison: But when you come to compulsory purchase, the transaction is artificial, because Richard Roe is not willing to sell. He has to be compelled to do so by a Bill such as this. Therefore, we call in, in these cases, the great profession of valuers to our aid, and they, practising the mysteries of their profession, arrive at the price which is computed by law under Rule n in the Acquisition of Land Act, 1919, which says:
  "The value of land shall be taken to be the amount which the land, if sold in the open market by a willing seller, might be expected to realise."
  When you remember that the seller, in this case, is not really willing to sell, it is not surprising that valuers frequently differ widely in computing the proper sum, and that the arbitrator is brought in to decide where lies the golden mean. The point is that valuers have to refer to an open market and a willing seller. By an open market, I mean a normal series of transactions. The war has, temporarily, depressed values in areas such as those on the South East coast and raised the values of others through purely temporary causes, which will cease to have effect within a short time after the armistice. Such transactions as have taken place during this disturbed period do not afford an open market and where people have sold land for what it would fetch, it is doubtful how far, in justice, they can be considered willing sellers. What we propose to do, for five years only, since valuers must do their job and refer to an open market, is to direct them back to the most recent date when there was an undisturbed market in land, namely, the 31st March, 1939. Therefore, Clause 45 says that the value of land shall be ascertained by reference to prices current at 31st March, 1939.
  This, incidentally, is the formula agreed to by Parliament in Section 10 of the War Damage Act, 1943, under which many thousands of valuations have already been made, and there are great administrative conveniences in adhering to it, and great complications for the War Damage Commission in departing from it, especially when we remember that we are here dealing so largely with war damaged land. In two cases, so far, we have evidence that this rough justice might work harshly, where there seems to be strong evidence that a rise in value since 1939 has taken place, which
  1608
  is not due to the war but to social tendencies of a more permanent character. One is the case of the smaller houses and the other is that of agricultural land. To the owner-occupier in each case we ask for power to pay if he is dispossessed an additional sum calculated by reference to 1939 prices at what is called a prescribed percentage. The dwelling houses concerned are described as those with a rateable value not exceeding £100 in London and £75 in the provinces. These are the limits laid down in the Rent Restriction Act. This limit covers the whole or by far the majority of the homes of the people, and the object is, if the rise in price of these houses persists, to enable an award of such a sum as would roughly enable owner-occupiers to get a similar house. A like object lies behind a similar provision in the case of the owner-occupier of agricultural land.
  I come to the last chapter of this long story—assistance from the Exchequer for this great operation. The financial provisions deal with the issue of immediate urgency, namely, the areas of extensive war damage, but, as has already been said, the area for reconstruction will not be rigidly restricted in any way, should the proper needs of replanning require the designation of a wider space; and any overspill area for the reinstatement of those displaced is also included. What are the financial problems facing the local authorities of war damaged towns? I suggest there are four main problems. First, although this is a matter not strictly part of reconstruction, they may already be suffering a temporary loss of rates revenue serious enough to threaten a breakdown of essential services. This is a misfortune which they share in common with towns whose loss arises not from war damage but from evacuation. Relief is afforded by the Ministry of Health's wartime assistance scheme, and its continuation may be expected for as long as is necessary. Secondly, the amount of capital required for the purchase of the areas affected—many of them town centres in which the cream of site values will be found—will run to very large figures. The amount involved cannot be accurately estimated, but the Financial Memorandum to the Bill conjectures that the sum may be of the order of £575,000,000 in respeot of expenditure on acquisition and clearance. In order to

  1609
  assist local authorities provision is made, in Clause 38 of the Bill, to give them access to the Local Loans Fund.
  The third and fourth problems arise respectively in the short and long terms, but they are closely related. In both cases the question is "Will the annual income arising on the reconstruction scheme balance the annual outgoings in the form of loan charges?" Let us examine the two cases separately. The short term problem may extend for perhaps ten years, during which the immense task of physical reconstruction will be proceeding. There is a gap, a "dead period," during which inevitably receipts will lag behind outgoings, although towards the end of the period the amount of the annual deficit may, it is hoped, taper off and even cease. The general nature, although not the particular incidence, of the problem is forseeable, and a relief for it is wanted in some dependable form and knowledge that it is far a reasonable period ahead. The long term problem is of a different kind. When the buildings are up, when life has been restored to the town, the testing time for the ultimate success of the scheme will begin. The improvements effected may enable values to be reestablished at such a level that profits will mature. On the other hand it is not impossible—I do not gainsay it—that the requirements of a proper layout or other circumstances may prevent the scheme from becoming self-supporting even in the long run. But all this is to enter the realm of guesswork.
  How does the Bill provide for these two problems? To take the short-term problem first—the proposals, I suggest, march with the need. During the first two years after the purchase of land, when in the average case no or very little income may be coming in, the local authority will be relieved of all loan charges whatsoever—in other words during these years they would pay nothing in respect of the land which they have acquired—and this extends to overspill areas as well as to reconstruction areas. Next, for the ensuing eight years the relief is continued in so far as the land acquired is "incapable of being brought into use for any substantial purpose." Further this relief is "in special, circumstances" to be extended for a further five years. Accordingly both the extent and the terms of the relief are nicely
  1610
  adjusted to the circumstances of the individual case, and where special circumstances justify it the relief is available up to a maximum period of fifteen years. This strikes me as a practical and workmanlike way of dealing with the short term problem. Indeed the interpretation of what is "short term" may be deemed to be generous; and in regard to the administrative application of what should be considered "use for any substantial purpose," specific provision is made for consultation with the associations of local authorities before rules are made. It is, therefore, submitted that these grants satisfy the tests mentioned above, and afford relief in the short term period in dependable form.
  Mr. Wilmot: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that point may I ask whether I am correct in understanding him to say it is within the framework that an extension of time may cover the full loan charge beyond two years?
  Mr. Morrison: Certainly, Sir. If my hon. Friend will look at the Bill he will see that grants can be made in respect of any part of the loan charges incurred by the authority purchasing the land. If in fact a project for redevelopment properly is not bearing fruit that power is extended right to the end of the ten years, and in special circumstances to another five years. I think that is generous provision.
  Mr. Wilmot: Will that cover the whole amount?
  Mr. Morrison: Yes, except in so far as returns are coming in to the local authority. If they are getting returns it is quite right they should stand that themselves.
  I pass to the long-term problem. Let me say by way of preface that I hope Members and the local authorities concerned will look upon a reconstruction as a great opportunity as well as a weighty responsibility. It is an opportunity for the building of finer and worthier town centres and other war damaged areas. Nor need we preclude the probability of a satisfactory financial outcome if the opportunity is taken. Providing that during the first few years we nurse these towns back to convalescence, which we propose to do, financial recovery should, we hope, then set in. Accordingly, the Bill provides that in the long term period

  1611
  quinquennial reviews should be made in order to judge what has been the financial effect of the redevelopment. If the reviews show that a net profit has accrued,
  "the Minister … after considering any representations made by the authority may certify the amount thereof"
  and to that extent the grants previously made become repayable. I have seen criticisms on this point and it should be emphasised that the question of repayment only arises if a profit has been made on the scheme itself. Only the financial effect of the scheme, not the whole finances of the local authority, are taken under review.
  But I shall doubtless be asked to consider also the case where not only no profit accrues but a loss continues into the long-term period. It will be pointed out that the Bill says nothing specific about that contingency. The reason is not far to seek. As I have already said, we are here in the realm of guesswork; and you cannot prescribe in terms, and with financial commitments attached, for the incalculable. Let us see what in fact the local authority associations desire in this particular regard. They desire that the matter should
  "be subject to review in the light of the current financial results."
  That is a very reasonable request. No definite or impracticable commitment is sought. The associations merely ask that the door should be left open for review at the proper time. The Bill does not differ from this. Clause 8 makes provision for a quinquennial review. This review can have regard to losses as well as gains, and could be made the basis for appropriate action in the case of losses, should our successors at that time decide that circumstances call for further financial assistance.
  So much in regard to financial assistance far war damaged areas. The Bill makes no provision for financial assistance for authorities who acquire land in obsolete areas. The House may wish me to say a few words about this. The Government feel that first things should come first. In the early years after the war, when there is bound to be a shortage of labour and materials, the national effort should be concentrated on restoration and on new accommodation—new houses, factories and other essential needs. In
  1612
  this programme war damaged towns will rightly have prior claims. No effort should be spared in reconstructing devastated areas—with which, as I have said, will be associated any obsolete areas which form a proper part of the new layout. But to deal in general with the other overcrowded and obsolete areas in this period would mean an unwise distraction from the supremely urgent task of restoration, and to pull down rather than to build would moreover add to the lack of accommodation at a time when none of it can easily be spared. It is for that reason that no commitment is entered into in respect of finance for blighted areas but the acquisition powers are in the Bill.
  I would indicate one or two details in the provision for financial assistance to bombed areas. The assistance is towards the cost of purchasing and clearing the land. Clearing the land includes, by Clause 49, "preparing land to the prescribed extent for development, including the construction of any prescribed works in the course of so preparing it." "Loan charges" cover both interest and sinking fund. Clause 5, Sub-section (4) provides that if a local planning authority finances the operation out of its own money, this is treated as a notional borrowing, and the grant towards loan charges is payable just as if, in fact, they had borrowed it. These provisions are not ungenerous.
  Mr. Wilmot: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the financial provisions may I ask him this? He has drawn the Financial Resolution widely in the matter of compensation to allow of the possibility of some discussion. He has drawn the Financial Resolution on assistance very narrowly so that it is impossible during the Debate within the Resolution to extend a period beyond the two years. As that is one of the requests of the local authorities, would the right hon. Gentleman consider a wider Resolution on this point?
  Mr. Morrison: I will certainly consider it. In fact the Bill continues financial assistance over two years in so far as the land is not revenue producing. I do not think there is very much in that point, but if hon. Members feel that some Amendment in the Financial Resolution would help the Debate, in so far as I can meet them I shall be very pleased to do so.

  1613
  I have discharged my task of exposition to the best of my ability and I have attempted to make the main plan and purpose of the Bill clear. The Bill confers great powers on local authorities and I hope that they, with my Department and the public, will work in harmony and with zeal for the accomplishment of the task which lies before us all. As to future progress, I propose, if I get the Second Reading, to enter into consultations afresh with the local authorities between now and the Committee stage. I shall debar nothing from these consultations, and I feel sure that these consultations will be more fruitful at this stage if they are held in the light of the discussion which is to take place here to-day and to-morrow. This is a matter which concerns not only a Government Department and the Executive, and local authorities; it concerns vitally the general public, whom these bodies exist to serve. Parliament is the guardian of the general public. As a result, I hope that, with mutual good will, we can agree upon Amendments, which will improve the Bill and yet be agreeable to this House. Besides, I shall, on the Committee stage, look with sympathy, as I have said, and with impartiality, on Amendments put down by hon. Members on all sides of the House.
  This has been a difficult Bill to get to this stage. The ownership of land is a topic which, in the past, has aroused much controversy in the political arena. Ministers, as well as Members, have their own views. But my right hon. Friends and I have had before us the urgency of this work of reconstruction, and have agreed to present the proposals in the Bill to this House. We regard the reconstruction of our bombed cities as an epilogue to the national emergency which brought us together. May I ask for an equal degree of objectivity and mutual forbearance from the House, in order that this great work may be set on foot by this present Parliament?
  Mr. Arthur Greenwood: My right hon. Friend knows me too well to expect me to shower bouquets upon him now. On the statement made by the Leader of the House, with regard to the Money Resolution, I should like to say a few words. I am glad that the Government have decided not to proceed with the Money Resolution at present. In my view, it is drawn not so widely as to meet
  1614
  the discussions which will be undertaken shortly with the local authorities, but so narrowly as to confine it to one particular aspect only of the Bill. If the discussions were to take place—and we have the right hon. Friend's undertaking that they will be as wide as the local authority representatives think necessary—I should hope that, in the light of the Debate to-day and to-morrow and the following discussions with the local authorities, the Government will be prepared to come back to the House with, if necessary, a revised Money Resolution and with even far-reaching Amendments, which have come out of the discussions. My right hon. Friend thinks that this is just the right moment for the discussions. I may refer to that a little later in my speech. I myself think that it is rather late in the day.
  My right hon. Friend has reminded the House that I was responsible for introducing the first Town and Country Planning Bill, in 1931. It was in the days of a minority Labour Government. Therefore, I appreciate some of the difficulties which are facing the present National Government. I could not, as a Member of a minority Government, have hoped to obtain a Town and Country Planning Bill after my own heart, and when, as my right hon. Friend says, for reasons unconnected with the war, that Bill was dropped in 1931, and re-introduced in 1932, it was not the same kind of Bill. Members who were in the House at the time will recollect that it had taken on a much more true-blue Tory colour. That is inevitable when one is viewing questions of real property. That issue is the deepest issue perhaps between my hon. Friends and hon. Members on the opposite side of the House: it is where we definitely part company. Hon. Members opposite hold a political philosophy which, on this side of the House, we do not share. You cannot satisfactorily, in our view, deal with the problem of town and country planning unless you face up squarely to the issue of nationalisation versus private ownership. That, indeed, was clear to the Uthwatt Committee, for in their final Report, dealing with unification of private pooling schemes, they said, in paragraph 45:
  "The logical answer to the proposals for pooling ownerships is thus that they are theoretically sound in endeavouring by means of unification to eliminate the compensation

  1615
  requirements arising from shifts of value, but that as shifts are on a national scale so the pooling of ownership must result in a single pool comprising the whole of the land of the country. In a word, the only feasible system of pooling is nationalisation, which is the very result pooling is designed to avoid."
  In paragraph 47, the Uthwatt Report contains these words:
  "If we were to regard the problem provided by our terms of reference as an academic exercise without regard to administrative or other consequences, immediate transfer to public ownership of all land would present the logical solution; but we have no doubt that land nationalisation is not practicable as an immediate measure and we reject it on that ground alone."
  The Committee state their reasons. The first, and overpowering, reason quotes almost the words of the Prime Minister, that land nationalisation
  "would arouse keen political controversy."
  Mr. Molson: Will the right hon. Gentleman mention the other two objections, because they are very relevant?
  Mr. Greenwood: They are not relevant to my argument. [Interruption.] I am not called upon to read the whole of the Report. I am entitled to make my speech in my own way. I am simply pointing out that the major reason in the minds of the Uthwatt Committee was that a solution on those lines would arouse very keen and bitter political controversy. I have said before that I have no objection to keen political controversy. I do not believe that we are going to get the best out of any post-war plans unless there is freedom of expression in this House, on all sides. I can understand that His Majesty's Government, being composed as it is, could do nothing less than produce a Measure of this kind. The Bill and the White Paper both shirk that issue, because in a National Government it is incapable of solution. Therefore, from our point of view, we cannot get a satisfactory Bill. It may be amended more in accordance with our desires, but this Bill can never completely satisfy my hon. Friends and myself.
  The right hon. Gentleman tried to put the probem in its national setting. The great issue with which we are faced is as to whether, in future, our national development is to be directed to the governing principle of public wellbeing or left to the more or less undirected
  1616
  impulses of private ambitions for gain or power. I believe, and my hon. Friends believe, That the land of the nation ought to be a national asset, and not an aggregation of private interests, often conflicting, as they are. I am not going to devote time to discussing the advantages or disadvantages of public ownership. I merely affirm that our only standard, on this side of the House, in judging a plan for dealing with national development is that it must be based upon the national ownership of land. In recent years the need for directing our national life towards the fullest utilisation of the British soil and what is under it was widely recognised. The war has not removed that problem. It is still as urgent and as vital as ever it was. All that the war has done, in my view, is to make the solution of this problem of the utilisation of our resources more urgent and insistent. Consequently, the major question is not to deal with the blitz situation, although that is an immediate problem, but to use the destruction that we suffered at the hands of the enemy as an incentive to attack the wider problem. All we have before us to-day is virtually a blitz Bill. It has some of the trimmings, some of the frills, but the heart of the Bill is the blitz problem. I am not saying that that is not a big problem: all I am saying is that it is a simple problem compared with the major problem which we are going to have to face. My suggestion is that, unless you put it into the picture of general national development, you will fail in your object.
  We have had the final Uthwatt Report for nearly two years. We have now got the White Paper on the Control of Land Use and we have got the Bill, both published simultaneously. I want to make my protest about the proceeding which has been adopted in relation to this, before the Second Reading Debate. We cannot fully debate the Government's White Paper to-day, because of the Bill. If I could have persuaded the Leader of the House last Thursday to agree to a discussion on the White Paper, Mr. Speaker would, quite rightly, have ruled that the Debate, if we had it, could not anticipate the discussion of this Bill to-day, and to that extent my purpose in asking for a full Debate would have been defeated.
  I think that, in throwing at the House the White Paper and the Bill simul-

  1617
  taneously, it has treated the House very unfairly. Why has there been this new procedure? We have, during the time I have sat on this side of the House, for the last 2½ years, built up a procedure which I think has been acceptable on all sides. We have had a discussion on a White Paper, or on some Report, before legislative action has been taken by Parliament, and that seems to me admirably to meet the circumstances of a war-time Parliament and a Coalition Government. We did it with the Beveridge Report, to be followed by legisation. The national health service White Paper came out with a promise of subsequent legislation. We had an Education White Paper, followed by a Bill now going through its final stages in another place. On the rural water supplies White Paper we had a Debate, followed subsequently by a narrow, emergency Bill dealing with the immediate situation.
  If that procedure has been worked out and applied on half a dozen occasions, I cannot, for the life of me, see why the Government have treated the House in this fashion on this occasion, because we are dealing with one of the problems which is bound to arouse hostility on both sides of the House. We have been robbed to-day of an opportunity of discussing the White Paper, and have had forced upon our attention a Bill to be accepted or rejected. It is idle to say, as it is said, I understand, that the White Paper on the Control of Land Use deals with the long-distance problem and the Bill with the much more immediate problem. I believe the immediate Bill will produce a long-distance problem for us, because we are going to try to handle this thing out of relation to the wider issues. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is silly."]
  My next point is the treatment which the local authorities have received in these discussions. Two years is a long time, almost as long a time, I believe, as for an elephant to bring its young to birth, and yet, in spite of that long time, there has been discussion only of the most cursory kind, as I regard it, with the representatives of the local authorities. It is a cardinal principle, which I think must be admitted by all, that, prior to legislation, there should be full and intimate discussion with those who will be charged with carrying out the law when it is on the Statute Book. In this case there has been
  1618
  some discussion. I believe I am right in saying that, in the earlier stages, there was a meeting with the Minister, and that, more recently, there has been a meeting with the Minister, and in between, I believe, about four meetings with representatives of my right hon. Friend's staff. I do not, however, regard that as adequate consideration and discussion with the local authorities, and I hope that the discussions which have been promised to-day will be what has often been described as a process of "getting down to it," and that there will be intimate discussions between my right hon. Friend and the representatives of local authorities. I do not think that, in this matter, he ought to leave too much to the officers of his Department.
  It is clear, of course, that the whole range of the problem cannot be discussed. I think myself that there has not only been a little discourtesy to the local authorities but that there has been a short-sighted attitude. The only way we can deal with matters of this kind is by gaining the good will of those who have to administer and carry out the proposals. I am certain that if, in the 1929–31 Parliament, I had treated the local authorities as they have been treated on this occasion, I should not have been able to get through either the Rural Housing Act or the Housing Act. I did not put through the Town and Country Planning Bill, but I had all the preliminary discussions on it with the local authorities I suggest that the right method for the Minister is to live with these people and have them by his side, because they know all the snags and know what they want.
  I object very much to what the Minister said when talking about inquiries, his remark that we must go into them with more and more caution. My right hon. Friend spoke as the arch-priest of excessive caution, and took unto himself a superiority which I do not think squares with the facts. He talks about this longer procedure and so on, and says it will ease the labours of those who have to carry his proposals into effect, but that does not appear to be the case, because, as Members will know, here is a document of a kind which I have never seen in my experience, and I have a longish experience in local government of one form and another. I never have seen the Association of Municipal Corporations, the County Councils' Association, the Urban District Councils' Association, the Non-

  1619
  County Boroughs' Association, the Rural District Councils' Association, the London County Council and the Corporation of the City of London all in the same bed at the same time. Their view is that they want to simplify this matter. Their burdens are not going to be eased by the promises of my right hon. Friend. On the contrary, their view is that this new procedure, so far from simplifying matters, does, in some regard and in some parts of the Bill, add a fifth wheel to the coach. I would hope, therefore, that my right hon. Friend will think again. I am sorry that the discussions are to take place on the basis of the Bill now before the House, and I think they should take place on the basis of this document sent out by organisations of local authorities. If my right hon. Friend will listen to their argument, I think that, when we come to the Bill again, he may be' able to produce a better Bill for us.
  I want for a moment or two to pursue the question of the narrowness of this Bill. We need a Measure or Measures to deal with national development and with the problems of our land as soon as possible. It is imperative. All we have is a Bill of bits and pieces. My right hon. Friend thinks they are big bits and pieces, but, whether big or little, they are bits and pieces and cover what is really only part of the problem. When decisions are taken on this Bill, this House will have tied its own hands in trying to solve the far bigger and wider problem of development. We shall not merely, for a particular area of ground, have decided its policy, but we shall have prejudiced the larger policy on national development, and that is why I cannot believe that this backwards-way procedure is the best in these circumstances.
  We are not so certain yet that this Bill will get on the Statute Book, and it may be, therefore, that the general plan will not be forthcoming before the end of the European war, in which case this country will be in a sorry plight, with the local authorities hamstrung and harassed and discouraged, faced with grave problems far beyond their local resources, and without any guidance from a national plan. That, I think, would be calamitous. I hope my right hon. Friend takes my view on this matter—that redevelopment and development cannot be separ-
  1620
  ated really from restoration, and I think that, in the long run, he will agree with me that it would be folly to put back something rather like what Hitler has succeeded in destroying. It is shortsighted in the last degree, when Hitler has already done the work of demolition for us and is still continuing to do it, and when national pride in our heritage and hopes for our future are increasing, not to take advantage of this opportunity.
  Local authorities are entitled to know where they stand. Part of the case they make against the Government is that they do not know where they stand and cannot proceed on the basis and with the vision with which they want to proceed, until they know far more of what is in the Government's mind. After local authorities have been encouraged by many Ministers in the list year or two to produce their general plans for the Government to consider, those general plans should be considered as a whole, covering blitzed areas, blighted areas, "areas of bad lay-out and obsolete development" and imaginative plans for full development.
  The Bill throws very heavy financial responsibilities on the local authorities. I do not believe that the blitzed areas and their restoration ought to be a problem for the local authorities. A district bombed by enemy action is as much a war loss as a cruiser or a merchant ship sunk at sea, or a crashed aeroplane or, indeed, any other physical loss we sustain during the war, and it would, therefore, seem to me that war damage, whether you call it blitz or blight, should be regarded as a charge to be properly added to the cost of the war, an addition which would mean little to the nation as a whole, but, if borne by the local authorities, would be an intolerable burden. The assistance given to blitzed areas is too small to enable them to carry that burden. I do not believe that the more favoured, financially, local authorities in the country would object to the nation as a whole taking all responsibility of paying for the restoration of these damaged areas. Of course one has got to ask, Are they to be put back, more or less as they were, or to be restored as they ought to be according to the ideas of the middle of the 20th century? My answer to that is that they should be developed as well as they can possibly be developed.

  1621
  I believe that the taxpayers of this country would not grumble if, Phœnixlike, out of the ashes of Coventry and a dozen other towns there arose a memorial to which all the nation had subscribed—a memorial to nobler towns, bearing honour to those people who suffered most heavily from war action. As regards the other areas, the areas of bad lay-out and obsolete development, we deal with a problem which is neither that of the present Government nor that of the present local authorities. It is rather an old problem. Here the Government ought actively to encourage local authorities to undo the evils of bad lay-out and so forth and ought, in my view, to make some contribution to the cost. The evil of permitting bad lay-out to continue rests on the community and on Parliament and so on, and the removal of obsolete development would be an investment of great value to the nation as a whole. I would, of course, assume that in the redevelopment of these areas the local authorities would have to bear a substantial portion of the cost and to that I believe they would agree, because there is some return in amenities and in rateable value, and some return in human dignity if they got a town looking something like a town worth living in.
  I could deal with many points in the Bill but I know that many hon. Members wish to take part in the Debate and I will not, therefore, raise them. There is one particular problem I would like to mention, one concerning the relations between national and local finance. During the discussions on the Education Bill I suggested that the time had now come, seeing that new burdens were being cast upon local authorities, for a general review, in consultation with the local authorities' associations, of relations between State and local finance. With this Bill coming on, which will impose enormous financial burdens upon local authorities, it is indeed high time that such discussions should be begun, and without delay.
  My last word is this. If the Government would withdraw the Bill, I would be very pleased. I believe that the Bill has been drafted far too hastily even to carry out what is intended. I do not think that it meets the wishes of a substantial proportion of the Members of this House. It certainly does not meet the wishes of
  1622
  the local authorities who, after all, will be charged with the responsibility of administering it. If my right hon. Friend looks forward to the Bill becoming a monument to him when it is on the Statute Book, I can assure him that he will have to amend his Bill, amend his ways and seek the friendly collaboration of the local authorities.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I hope very much that the Government will not listen to the concluding words of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) and will not act on his request that the Bill should be withdrawn. I want to start by making an appeal to the House. I do not expect that my words will be so winged that they will fly so far as to the darkest and dustiest corners of this Chamber. In so far as there is any mention in the Bill of private enterprise, I do not believe that it could be acceptable to the hon. Baronet the Member for Barnstaple (Sir R. Acland)——
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: He is not here.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: —wherever he may be to-day. In so far as there is any mention in the Bill of public control, I do not think it would be acceptable to my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams). I regard this Bill as a test of the capacity of the nation to turn from the defeat of an external enemy to cope with the giant evils in our midst—the evils of squalor, disease and want. The leaders of all parties in the House of Commons produced this Bill. The White Paper associated with the Bill says:
  "The Government has made prolonged and detailed search for a solution which might prove broadly acceptable."
  Here in this Bill is a solution of the problems of urban life which cry out to-day for urgent treatment. What are these problems? They are the appalling devastation of war, the squalor of the slums——
  Mr. Gallacher: The Bill does not deal with slums.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Oh yes it does—the ravages of time on ancient and uncared for buildings, the unsightliness and inconvenience of ribbon development, the congestion of traffic and the mounting toll of road accidents, the

  1623
  lowered standard of health in congested areas, the non-provision of churches, schools and public buildings to raise communities to high standards of civic consciousness. I believe that the country wants to see these evils corrected, and the Government have produced a Bill——
  Mr. Moelwyn Hughes: Which will not do it.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: —which will see that they are corrected. The very reputation of Parliament is at stake if once Government and people are united in the aim and if this House seeks to deflect the aim on behalf of vested interests and established practices no longer founded in the national will or in public esteem. Therefore, it is of paramount importance not only to our present selves in this House, but to our successors in a future Parliament, that this Bill should be given a Second Reading and that we should enable the Minister to pursue his technical discussions with local authorities prior to the Committee stage. I think that I can speak on behalf of my hon. Friends sitting beside me—Members of the Tory Reform Committee—in saying that we shall do our utmost to give support to the Government and to see that the Measure is carried through as early as possible.
  I would like to make clear my attitude and that of my hon. Friends on some of the complaints and suggestions that have so far come up from local authorities. I hope that the Minister will set his face—and I think from what he said to-day it is clear that he means to do it—against any attempt to secure a uniform procedure for compulsory acquisition. It seems to me that the varying procedures embodied in Clauses 2, 3, 9 and 10 have the virtues of experimentation and empiricism. After all, local authorities are not the only entities to be considered. There are also the people with whom they have to deal. Simplification and expeditiousness may suit local authorities very well, but in all probability they will be harsh, arbitrary and unjust to individuals. On the other hand, variety, complexity and exact definition may displease local authorities; it may even befuddle us in this House—I for one find Clause 46, Sub-section (3), for example, quite unintelligible reading—but, nevertheless, it
  1624
  will be of great benefit, as the Minister said, to members of the legal profession acting on behalf of their dispossessed and about-to-be compensated clients. What we have to do is to find the happy mean and ensure that the approach is practical. It seems to me that the Minister has done this in the Bill and is to be congratulated on that account.
  There is complaint of too much advance publicity. But surely what is proposed in the Bill is very much better than the old method in which there was not only the fullest publicity but endless delay. The Minister has rightly shortened the procedure but retained the necessary elements of publicity. As he said, the public must be told what is happening. It is their land, their houses, their churches, their community which are involved. After all, some local authorities may not be above a little quiet nepotism. Under general conditions of secret planning that is an evil which is likely to swell to considerable proportions. It does seem important, therefore, that we should retain the local public inquiry and the procedure set out in Clause 1, recognising that celerity is not the only principle involved.
  I think that local authorities are on firmer ground when they ask for powers to acquire land for all their statutory purposes. Particularly is this important in the case of open spaces, churches and civic buildings. I would like to ask the Minister why it is that they are denied these powers, and I trust that the Bill will be amended in due course to ensure that local authorities are not constrained to develop land in such a way that direct financial return must and will accrue. It is very often the case that what are needed for the health, enjoyment and uplift of the population are land and buildings yielding little or no financial return. With regard to the financial conditions which must accompany these necessary extra powers, they obviously entail questions of difficulty, but I think the House should be generous in the matter and legislate for Treasury guarantee of loan interest on unproductive land and buildings up to fifteen years, or until redevelopment of the whole area is completed, whichever period proves to be the shorter.
  I now come to the contentious question of the March, 1939, values. These are taken as the standard for compensation,

  1625
  and I would say at once that I welcome the proposals in the Bill and am glad that the Government have rejected the Uthwatt principle. The arguments have been well put by the Minister, and the House does not require a restatement of them, but I want to say a word or two about the two classes singled out for special treatment. I agree to the "prescribed percentage" and to the method of its determination, but I want it to apply to owner-occupiers, whatever their size and whether they are residential or commercial. After all, why not? The classes that ought to be encouraged are those who have made, or are going to make, these cities their permanent abode, and have taken and will continue to take a pride and interest in civic affairs. It does not matter if they are rich or poor, commercial, industrial or retired, professional or private, so long as they are not speculators or in-and-out men. It seems to me that the determining principle in Clause 46 ought to be attachment to the place, and local patriotism on the part of the individual and his family, and not the character of the residence or any particular income qualification.
  Now if the owner-occupied Clause is to, be widened without including the speculator, I think that the agricultural class—which is the other exception—ought to be narrowed in order to exclude the speculator, because he is there now as the Clause stands. During the war speculators have bought up land outside towns hoping that development would take place their way. The open fields which they have bought are now being grazed—they have done nothing to improve them—and the owner, as I understand it, comes within the definition of Section 2 of the Rating and Valuation Act of 1928. I hope that we shall secure an Amendment to Clause 46 to enable the prescribed percentage to be withheld from those who bought land after 17th July, 1941, when the Government announced their policy on the pegging of land values, and withheld also from those who may very well have carried out improvements ordered by the war agricultural executive committee but have not done so out of their own resources.
  It seems to me that there are two omissions from the Bill. In the Education Bill nothing was said about the content of education or the curricula in schools. For
  1626
  all we know in this House the nation's children may be going to be taught some very strange things. For all we can learn from this Bill, local authorities may be going to plan in very strange ways; the Minister may be going to issue directions or withhold assents upon some strong personal or departmental predilection or bias. He has told us a little to-day about the "flatted factories" but we ought to know many other things—for example, whether he or his Department have a secret passion for multi-storey flats, or a powerful aversion to garden cities; what his views are on the optimum size of towns and, in general, in what way he sees the new England taking shape. The other omission concerns the inter-relation of overspill areas—to use an ugly term until a better one has been invented. I think the Minister ought to take power in the Bill to coordinate the requirements of local authorities for land for new satellite towns. Jupiter keeps his moons properly organised, and at a safe distance from one another; the earth does the same thing with her moon; the planets derive their wisdom and authority from the sun, but I do not see the Minister's beams reflected in the Bill in this particular regard, and I hope he will take powers to co-ordinate these requirements.
  There is one assurance I would like to exact from my right hon. Friend. Enormous new powers and responsibilities have been thrust on local authorities in recent years, and they will be considerably increased as the result of this Bill. Many of the local authorities are inexperienced and quite new to planning. I think there should be formed a pool of architects, surveyors, town planners, university lecturers in architecture, engineers and so on who would be available to local authorities, at a fee, to spend time with them and advise them on the complex problems with which they will be faced and in general, give them advice on current day-to-day business connected with planning. If that pool is already in existence, I hope the Minister will tell us something about its organisation and methods.
  In conclusion, may I say this? This Bill has been described as doing rough justice to all concerned. If we are to have slogans, I prefer "rough justice" to "safety first." Security in England is a very different thing from security for England. If I thought that our troops

  1627
  were coming back from overseas to pursue an inanimate existence in this country for the rest of their lives I would despair of my country. Our returning heroes must make their homes and not receive them on a plate as guilt-offerings from a safe and protected people which in this war we assuredly have not been. Our men will not return—they will not want to return—to an absolutely secure society. I cannot think of a more degrading and stultifying welcome for us to give them, even if it lay in our power to do so. Rough justice! That has been the lot and the life not only of our Forces but of the whole country for five years—rough in our methods against the enemy, justice in the cause for which we fight——
  Mr. Gallacher: Will the Noble Lord excuse me for a moment? Is he not aware of the fact that some of the lads now fighting will come back to guaranteed security but, unless something drastic is done, some will come back to guaranteed poverty, without a home of any kind?
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Hence this Measure. If the hon. Gentleman would help in its passage, he could be quite certain that the end he has in view would be brought about. This Bill rightly translates the nation's present mood into the governance of our affairs five, ten, and fifteen years from now. It is a provocative, enterprising, adventurous and satisfying Measure. The temper of it is suited to the temper of our people which, if I have any means of gauging it rightly, wants to see a notable advance made in internal public policy. I congratulate the Government on having introduced this Bill, and I urge the House to launch it upon a turbulent and successful career.
  Mr. Muff (Kingston-upon-Hull, East): The Noble Lord appeals to the House to give our men and women serving in the Armed Forces rough justice. I am all in favour of the justice, but because the men in the Armed Forces have proved themselves to be men, and the womenfolk have proved that they are not without moral courage, it does not mean that this House can imagine that they will continue a fight in order that they can win rough justice. Some of us who took part in the 1918 campaign foresaw rough justice to those who had served us
  1628
  so well, and I am certain that the then Prime Minister and many Members of his Cabinet, including the then Member for Oxford City—the hon. Member opposite was not a Member in those days, of course, and he knows I am not making an attack upon him. I believe it was Sir Eric Geddes.
  Mr. Pickthorn: I am afraid he was the Member for Cambridge Borough.
  Mr. Muff: I stand corrected.
  Mr. Pickthorn: It was not my fault.
  Mr. Muff: I am very glad of the correction because I do not like making mistakes if I can avoid them. The then Government promised flowery justice; they made promises galore—or rather, in great quantities, which is a little better English, but not much. I want to ask the House to discount the peroration made by' the Noble Lord. This Bill would not be opposed by such a combination of public authorities if it were not for the fact that they have serious misgivings as to what will happen when it becomes law. We dare not, as a House of Commons, once more disillusion those who are serving us in the Armed Forces. [Interruption.] I think the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge University——
  Mr. Pickthorn: Not learned.
  Mr. Muff: I will not have a competition about learnedness. I will get on with my speech. We cannot afford to have another four years of disillusionment, such as that which occurred between 1918 and 1922 and laid the psychological basis of much from which our people suffered for many years afterwards. I agree with the noble Lord when he repudiates the doctrine of safety first, enunciated by his party in 1922.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: 1929.
  Mr. Muff: I fought the 1922 election——
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Charles Williams): I think both elections are irrelevant to this Bill.
  Mr. Muff: I agree, Sir, so I will leave the past and come to the present, with hope for the future. The Minister or, rather, the Treasury have promised a guarantee for the paying for two years of

  1629
  loan charges to those authorities which have acquired land. They have then made so many complications that it will mean an indefinite period before most of those authorities can take advantage of this Bill. If I were a fairly wealthy man I would be ready to go to the Treasury and make a firm offer for the amount of money they would have to pay to help those authorities. I am hopeful that when the Bill goes into Committee the period of two years will 132 considerably extended, and that Amendments will be accepted which will simplify considerably the acquisition of land. I hope that we shall not have to knock at the door and play the old game of "passing the buck," which will lead to discouragement and make our people think that they are being ruled by bureaucracy. I also hope that the Clause dealing with the March, 1939, ceiling will be amended, so that if the value of the land has declined, the public shall have the benefit of any such decline, and not any vested private interest.
  The Noble Lord rather foreshadowed that this Bill would have a turbulent passage. I am sorry for the Minister; I have a great regard for him, because I remember rough passages which he has already had in his career. I was hoping that after the protracted gestation period, and the deferment of the confinement for about seven weeks, the infant the House would welcome to-day would have been well developed and that we should have been prepared to take it into our arms and nourish it. [Interruption.] I agree that the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) does not look like a wet nurse, but that is by the way. I hope this Bill, which is capable of amendment, will be amended and that the Front Bench will help us to amend it without bringing in questions of confidence. We must help those in the Armed Forces and those in the blitzed areas, which should have priority over the blighted areas. The Parliamentary Secretary could have been the putative father of a much better Bill—the Kingston-upon-Hull Development Bill, which this House rejected. But the Parliamentary Secretary is hard boiled, so I will ask the Minister to look at that Bill again, to realise the simplicity of its proposals for the acquisition of land and to say, "Here is a capital Bill, drafted by men who know simple English. We will base our Bill upon its provisions." I ask
  1630
  the Minister to expunge the legal aphorisms from the Bill now before the House and to make it a Bill which will work. If he does so, I shall rejoice with the Noble Lord in saying that this House must act as trustees for the Armed Forces.
  Mr. Hutchinson: It was not to be expected that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Town and Country Planning would be able to introduce into this House a Bill which was likely to meet with the enthusiastic support of all parties. It would not be possible for any Minister to introduce a Bill, dealing with the use and control of land, which would meet with the unqualified support of every section of the House. Therefore, we have to deal with this Bill on the footing that it is not a Bill which completely meets the desires of any of the constituent parties of the National Government. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood), at the beginning of his speech, made it plain that no Bill which dealt with the future control of land on any footing except that of national ownership would meet with the approval of himself and his party. I submit to hon. Members on the other side of the House that that is really the worst possible line of approach which we should adopt toward this Bill. This Bill deals with great, difficult, involved and practical problems. We ought to approach it from the standpoint of whether it deals with those problems in a practical fashion. If it does, and if it provides some solution by which the difficult problems involved in reconstruction can be adequately dealt with, then it ought to pass its Second Reading with the general support of all sections of the House. The hon. Member who spoke last suggested that in some way the Bill fell short of the promises which have been made to those who will be returning to civil life from the Armed Forces. I waited with patience for him to develop that argument and point out in what directions he considered that my right hon. Friend's proposals will not be a fulfilment of the promise of better conditions which has been held out to the returning soldier.
  Mr. Muff: My point was that the Bill was so complicated that we should have the old spirit of frustration, which some of us remember so keenly, and the old procrastination. I hope the Minister will

  1631
  make it so simple as to avoid that occurring again.
  Mr. Hutchinson: Perhaps I was misled by the hon. Member's original observations, because he went on to point out that the Bill treated the local authorities in a fashion which he considered was not quite fair. It seemed to me that the two things were not by any means connected with one another. But in view of the explanation which he has now given, I appreciate his difficulties and I will endeavour to deal with them.
  The Bill must necessarily be complicated and difficult, because the problems with which it deals are complex and difficult too. I should like to invite attention to certain aspects of it which, if they are properly understood, ought, I think, to satisfy the House that the Bill approaches these problems in an effective fashion. The problem of reconstruction of "blitzed" and obsolescent areas falls into two parts which are separate and ought to be kept separate. The right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) complained that this was really a blitz Bill. In one sense that is true; but that is nothing against the Bill. If it makes effective proposals for dealing with blitzed areas, it is not a ground for criticising it because it deals with other matters as well. Does the Bill make satisfactory proposals for dealing with blitzed areas, or areas of "extensive war damage," as they are called in the Bill?
  The difficulty of an area with extensive war damage seems to be that you have in one area both war damage and obsolescence. The two things exist side by side in almost every damaged area. If the Bill proposed that war damage and obsolescence, where they existed together in the same area, were to be dealt with in different ways, there might be some force in that criticism. But, as I understand the Bill, that is not the case. It will be open to a local authority which has extensive war damage within its area to deal with that damage and with adjoining or intermixed obsolescent areas—that is to say, with the obsolescence which exists mixed with extensive war damage—to deal with the whole area by a single procedure and under a single scheme. If that is the case, it is not a criticism of the Bill to say it is a blitz Bill. It is a
  1632
  good deal more than a blitz Bill if you give local authorities precisely the power they require to tackle those problems which will come first, that is to say the reconstruction of a war damaged area with a blitzed area comprised in it, to redevelop those areas first and to deal with other areas at a later stage. Is there anything wrong with that?
  In the period which will immediately follow the close of hostilities there will be a great shortage of building materials and of building trade labour, until the Minister of Labour has made progress with his scheme for recruiting the building industry. During that period the demolition of obsolescent property, in so far as it is not involved with the re-development of a war damaged area, will really hot be a matter which the local authorities will be able to undertake. In the first place the shortage of accommodation will be acute, and even that accommodation which is not up to the standard that we all desire to see will have to be used, and there will be no justification for demolishing it until we can provide alternative accommodation. Therefore, whether we like it or not, the problem of dealing with obsolescent areas is one which has necessarily to be postponed until conditions arise in which it can be dealt with more effectively.
  That is precisely what the Bill proposes. Where an area requires redevelopment merely upon the ground of obsolescence, the conditions under which the local authority is to proceed will not be the same as those which are applicable to the immediate problem of the blitzed area. That really is a most reasonable and practical line of approach to this problem of the obsolescent area. The Bill goes a little further than that. As I understand it, the "ceiling" standard of 1939 values which is applied to the re-development of the areas of extensive war damage intermixed with obsolescence is not to be applied to where obsolescence exists alone. It seems to me that there is a very good reason for that. In five years' time the standard of values all over the country may be very different from those that exist to-day, and even more different from those that existed in 1939. If the re-development of obsolescent areas is not to proceed for five or six years, with the best will in the world to make good the promises to which the hon.

  1633
  Member for Hull (Mr. Muff) referred, it really would not be practical business to say that we are to go back to 1939 and to the basis of the values that existed then. With all the skill and resource of the valuers' profession, I doubt whether it would be practical politics to say to a valuer, "You have not to value this property as it exists now, you have to go back ten years and decide what its value was in 1939." I hope, when the House have had an opportunity to consider the aspects of this problem of valuation and also the immediate problem of re-development that is involved in the Bill, they will see that the approach that my right hon. Friend is making, complicated though it is, is really the most practical approach, having in mind that this is an immediate, practical problem which we have to solve without reference to our preconceived nostrums of any kind.
  Let me say a word about the opposition that has come from local authorities. The local authorities not unnaturally look first at the financial proposals of the Bill. I do not blame them for that. They are the people who will ultimately have to pay, and it is natural that they should look first to the financial provisions and ask whether they are satisfactory. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield said the repair of war damage ought to be a national charge. Does the Bill fall short of that standard? What is proposed is that the cost of reconstruction represented by the loan charges on the capital expenditure involved shall be borne by the State first of all for a period of two years. But two years is not the "ceiling." After two years it becomes a question of the circumstances in each individual case whether the capital charges go on being met by a public grant or fall upon the local authorities. What is there unreasonable about that? Local authorities are going to be put in possession of very valuable property. Why is it unreasonable to say that the profits should be used for the purpose of defraying the original cost and that it should not fall on the central Exchequer? My right hon. Friend is not going to take a narrow view. All that the is going to do is to relate the assistance which will be forthcoming from the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the actual loss which will fall on the local authorities in the form of loan charges. When that is appreciated, the opposition which has developed
  1634
  to this part of the Bill may be substantially reduced.
  There may be certain reconstruction areas where, by reason of the form which reconstruction takes, the area will never be a profitable area to the local authority at all. There may be areas large parts of which ought to be properly laid out as open spaces or devoted to the provision of wider roads or something of that nature. I would invite my right hon. Friend to consider whether, in the event of a local authority replanning its war damaged area on those lines, and in that way subjecting itself to a permanent loss in respect of its re-developed areas, that loss ought not permanently to be borne by the Exchequer. A case of that sort stands upon quite a different footing from the ordinary re-development scheme. That is a state of things which can very well arise in certain parts of the country, notably in the East End of London. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield to this extent, that in dealing with a scheme of that nature the permanent loss which may arise from good planning ought not to be borne by the local authority.
  Sir Robert Tasker: Does the hon. and learned Gentleman realise that in London for the last 70 years in the whole of the land acquired by the London County Council and its predecessors, there was a profit on only one transaction and a loss on all the rest?
  Mr. Hutchinson: I realise that, and that is why I drew attention to it. I said that in London there will be areas where that state of things may arise, and if those areas are extensive, the permanent loss which arises from re-development ought not to fall on the local authorities concerned.
  This Bill, after it has passed through Committee, ought to be capable of dealing with those problems which will arise immediately the war is over. If the House should not accept it, it may well be that the war will come to an end before another Bill has been brought forward and has passed through all its stages into law. Although my right hon. Friend has been criticised for the circumstances in which this Bill was brought in, the House should recollect that he is dealing with a problem which is an urgent problem. He would have deserved criticism if we had debated

  1635
  the White Paper first, because the White Paper does not really deal with the matters with which this Bill is primarily concerned. I am inclined to agree with what was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield, that a little more consultation with the local authorities at an earlier stage would have sweetened the passage of this Bill and would, perhaps, have relieved Members of the obligation of reading a long but exceedingly well drawn document. But I do not blame my right hon. Friend for the circumstances in which this Bill has been introduced. I recognise that it deals with something that is urgent and vital. If the opposition which at one time looked like developing to the Bill in this House had actually developed, it would have involved the local authorities, who are, after all, responsible in this matter, in what might well have proved to be a grave disappointement and a serious disaster. For these reasons, I would invite Members on both sides to give this Bill an unchallenged Second Reading. When the Committee stage is reached, let us recognise that in its main outlines this Bill provides a solution for a difficult problem, and see whether we cannot find the means of meeting the criticism, some of it justified, which the Bill seems likely to encounter in the course of its Second Reading Debate.
  Mr. Pickthorn: I shall endeavour to be as short as I can, and I hope the House will not count the first two or three minutes against me, because, in them, I have one or two personal remarks to make which I hope will be forgiven. One is that I have some small personal interest in this matter, not quite direct, but still, I think, not so indirect that it ought not to be avowed. The second thing I ought to begin by saying out of courtesy to the House, is an apology for not having been present throughout the Debate, but that has not been, I beg Members to believe, my fault. And then I should like to refer to the speeches which I have heard. I have some sympathy with the peroration of the Noble Lord the Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke), who begged us to get away from the slogan of "securrity"; rather he begged us to get away from the slogan of "safety first"; I would remind him and his friends that they are going to find it difficult to get
  1636
  away from that slogan unless they also get away from the slogan of "security." He wound up his speech with a peroration about what the soldiers fighting at the front would reasonably expect to come back to when the war is over.
  I would, with all the seriousness I can command, invite the House not much longer to use that particular piece of common form. I always thought that the worst of all the insults to the women of my country was when at the end of the last war the vote was given them—which I thought on the whole probably a mistake—certainly on a mistake—upon the then alleged ground that they had behaved so well in the war—as if they were to be rewarded for not having betrayed their parents and their children, their husbands and their lovers, while they were away fighting. That seemed to me a most scandalous kind of line to take. Similarly it seems to me quite a gratuitous form of deceit to tell people that they are to be permanently treated indefinitely better for the rest of their lives, because they fought for their country. The world is not so arranged that it is possible to keep such promises. Nor would any country be worth belonging to in which such promises were necessary. It is not in the hope of such reward that men fight for their country, and it seems to me a quite unnecessary muddying of the waters of our Debate that we should continually have it said by whoever has the courage or the impudence to get in first, "You must accept my view of this particular Bill, because otherwise you will not be doing what is due to the men who are fighting for you." I hope that that particular kind of peroration may fairly soon be dropped,
  I wish to draw particular attention to what seem to me to be the two main features of this Bill, and here I would ask the indulgence of the House to waste one more minute in personal explanation. I do not pretend that I have understood this Bill as fully as, I hope, I have understood other, earlier Bills upon the Second Reading of which I have ventured to address the House. It is not an easy Bill to understand. My hon. and learned Friend who spoke before me may be right in saying that it is particularly well drawn, but, if so, the subject is one which makes elucidation impossible. We have not had very much time in which to study

  1637
  the Bill. We have now the advantage of a Cabinet Minister on the Front Bench, and I do not know if he could tell us how long it took the Cabinet to understand this Bill sufficiently to give it, so to speak, a pre-Second Reading. It is certain that we have not been given nearly as long as they were. Therefore, I hope that those of us who may betray incomprehension in the course of our remarks may perhaps have forgiveness. There seems to me to be an element of extreme paradox about this Bill. I will not disguise from the House that I am not very much in love with the word "planning," and certainly not in love with the use that has been made of it during the last two years. Most planners are, curiously, also evolutionists. That is to say, in half of any given sentence uttered by a planner he is assuming that everything can be arranged by previous deliberation on his part; and in the other half of the same sentence he is assuming that everything is settled by something that is called evolution, an inevitable concatenation. I believe that most of the planners have been wrong in the application of both these points.
  If we are to try to increase the proportion of human life which can be consciously controlled by the organs of the community, I ask, Mr. Speaker, what are the first factors for which Government must be responsible. I ask the question the more confidently because I intend to answer it. I think that whatever disadvantages this generation has, in the year 1944, on this question, we have an inestimable advantage. We cannot doubt what our fathers or our grandfathers, however much our intellectual superiors, may have doubted, what are the two primary requisites of Government, the two first responsibilities of Government: they are defence, and the maintenance of the currency. A man is permitted to hope if his Government will preserve the physical configuration of the territory of his State, so that it is not blown to bits from above, or invaded horizontally, or in other ways interfered with, if in that sense there is defence; and if on top of that the currency declines in value only gradually—because all currencies do decline in value, and do not decline precipitately and melodramatically—then the organs of Government, and also private persons and associations, may hope to be able to plan. If these two
  1638
  prerequisites are not provided by the Government, there cannot be any planning at all, except the mere day-to-day planning of individuals scratching about to get the best living they can out of the soil immediately under their feet, or out of their neighbours. These are the two primary responsibilities of Government. When we debated the other day the White Paper an employment, we talked about primary responsibilities. I do not know how many primary responsibilities there may be, but in our generation I do not doubt that of all the primary responsibilities these are the two first. [Interruption.] I am sorry to have missed the wit of hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  Earl Winterton: We were wondering how the hon. gentleman was going to deal with the flying bomb.
  Mr. Pickthorn: I could tell the Noble Lord about that too, but I do not suppose it would be in Order on the Second Reading of this Bill. If these are the two primary requisites, we are in the paradoxical situation that the Government have failed in these two duties. I do not say that it is their fault, I am not saying it is not the fault of each one of us or of the general public, but the fact is that our territory has been more invaded and knocked about and our currency has been more devalued in the course of the last five years than, so far as I know, ever before in history; and at this juncture His Majesty's Government come before us with a Bill to put these matters as right as may be.
  I would invite the attention of the House to the method which they propose, because it seems to me that there are two main things in this Bill: one is the distinction between blitz and blight, with which I do not propose to deal; and the other is what I am coming to, which comes, I think, in Clauses 42 and 43. The Government say, "We have failed in our first responsibility, about defence. We have failed in our second responsibility, about maintaining the value of the pound sterling. So now we are going to provide a Bill to remedy the resultant damage. How are we going to do it? We are going to begin by putting the first charge upon those people who happen to own real property where the bomb fell"—because those people are to have their real property taken away from them

  1639
  and the compensation which they are to be given is to be not more than the value, in terms of sterling, that might have been obtained in March, 1939. I am prepared to admit, if His Majesty's Government will argue it, and if the House will accept it, I am prepared to acquiesce, that, in all the social and political circumstances, that is necessary, and that, anyway, you can never get true justice in these matters. The most you can expect is so to rearrange things as to give the next generation a chance to get started. You cannot expect much more from Governments than that they shall not grind the faces of those whose faces have already been ground, and for all I would say to the contrary, it must be admitted that the owners of real property upon which bombs happened to fall are, all of them, undeserving chaps, that almost all of them have large incomes from other sourcse, that most of them are very patriotic and that, in all the circumstances, the best thing you can say is that the first part of the knock shall be taken by them. If that is the argument, let that argument be stated.
  Mr. Hutchinson: I am sure my hon. Friend remembers, in developing this argument, that one of things said against the Bill is that it is unduly favourable to the owners of the old properties.
  Mr. Pickthorn: Certainly, I do, and the Lord preserve me from my friends. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I never had much hope, but it is pious and proper to pray. I quite understand that. It is one of the oldest of tricks, which my hon. and learned Friend, with whom I have been boys together for some 30 years now, ought to know; it has been a commonplace of the last 30 years, that trick of multiplying by three the argument on one side, and then saying to the chap on the other side: "Let's boil the two things in together, and divide by two." That is not a good way, in my judgment, of arriving at truth.
  I do not want too much to repeat myself. I will, as shortly as I can, once again make clear what seems to be the point. It is required (a) to reconstitute the physical condition of this country; (b) the bits that most want reconstituting are the bits upon which bombs have fallen; (c) it is assumed that the people who own the real property upon which
  1640
  the bombs have fallen shall be the one section of the community whose values shall not be readjusted to the fall in the value of the £ which, like the falling of the bombs, is the responsibility of His Majesty's Government. I say that that is a gross piece of injustice. I have swallowed many gross pieces of injustice in my time and I shall swallow many more. For myself, I do not desire justice; mercy is good enough for me. What I do say is, that if a great public authority—perhaps we may without excessive jingoism, describe ourselves as the greatest public authority in human history—is to commit a public injustice like that, it ought to be aware of what it is doing, and to assert it, and it ought to be clear about what it is doing, and that the sufferers who acquiesce in the injustice without grumbling ought to receive credit for so doing.
  Dr. Haden Guest: I do not want to follow the last speaker.
  Mr. Pickthorn: The hon. Member has got to.
  Dr. Haden Guest: But I wanted to pursue him because what he has really been saying is that the Bill is not sufficiently wide in its terms. I want to say to the hon. and learned Member for Ilford (Mr. Hutchinson) that he did very little justice to the local authorities in saying that their chief—he did not say their only—preoccupation was a question of money. They make it clear in this very respectable list of practically all the local authorities in this country that their chief objection to the Bill is that the procedure laid down cannot fail to cause delay after the war. They say that local authorities have to reconstruct their areas at an enormous cost and that no ordinary administrative machine can cope with the work, if public acquisition of land on the scale needed is to be carried out by cumbrous and complicated methods. It is to those methods, which are the essence of the Bill, that the local authorities object.
  Captain Cobb: When the hon. Member says that the local authorities object, I take it that he is referring to that memorandum of the Association of Municipal Corporations? Is it not a fact that the memorandum was drawn up almost entirely by a small caucus of one or two authorities?
  Dr. Guest: My hon. and gallant Friend is quite justified, no doubt, in his own mind in levelling this accusation against this body of representative authorities of the United Kingdom, representing all the chief local authorities and in saying that, in his view——
  Earl Winterton: May I interrupt the hon. Member on that point, which is of great importance? Is it not a fact that hundreds of local authorities have never been consulted at all? In my constituency and in the whole of Sussex not a single local authority has been consulted. How can the hon. Member say that this trade union, run by a few Socialists, is representative of all the local authorities?
  Dr. Guest: I am very interested to learn on the authority of the Noble Lord that the City of London has now become Socialist. The City of London is represented on this Association. I am afraid I cannot accept the Noble Lord's statement that the Association of Municipal Corporations, the County Councils' Association, the Urban District Councils' Association, the Non-County Boroughs' Association, the Rural District Councils' Association, the London County Council and the Corporation of London are all run by a small junta of Socialists and that this is an entirely unrepresentative document. Is that really the opinion of hon. Members opposite?
  Hon. Members: Yes.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: It is true.
  Dr. Guest: Then the local authorities had better get into touch with hon. Members and give them a little instruction in the way local government is run. They obviously do not know the very serious and difficult task that local authorities have in front of them. It is because of their extremely serious and difficult task that local authorities—they are the administrative bodies who have to carry out the work of the Bill, if it is to be carried out at all—are protesting that, in their judgment, the work is not capable of being carried out in the way laid down in the Bill. The House should take that point very seriously indeed into consideration. I do not believe that the Bill ought to go through. I do not think it is big enough in its conception. It does not cope with the very great national tasks which are before the country.
  1642
  I am against the Bill. It is one of a series of very bad improvisations in planning. I agree with the hon. Member who spoke last in objecting to the word "planning," which is frequently used to cover very obscure thinking instead of elucidating thinking. The Bill is bad. It is one of a series of bad improvisations. It is not comprehensive enough. In the Government's planning proposals we have had a dab of rural housing, a dab of rural water supply, a little of town planning—an interim Bill, I think it was called—and a little of something on employment, very inferior and not very good. We have had White Papers galore, but we have had no one big master plan. There has been nothing big enough to cope with the emergency which faces the country, and particularly the local authorities who have to carry out these plans in detail. I suspect, and I regret to have to say it, that the idea in the minds of some people, perhaps of some other junta who have been concerned in framing this Bill, has been to get back to the good-bad old clays when the private profiteer in land had his own way, and to leave things pretty much as they are at the present time—or as they were five years ago.
  I do not think that the Government are going to get away with it. They have not the right approach in the Bill. The Government have never had the right approach to planning since the war began. In the very early days, a Minister, a man of great eminence, who distinguished himself very much in building up that very great organisation called the British Broadcasting Corporation, Lord Reith, was engaged in a pretty hopeless task when it came to planning. I wish the Prime Minister were here at this moment, as I would like to remind him of the admirable speech he made when he was in opposition and was criticising the Minister for Co-ordination of Defence in the Chamberlain Government, saying that he was a Minister with one secretary and one typist. Does the House know that when the Reconstruction Minister began, he had only that staff? He had no Treasury support, and could not ask for money, and at one time his staff had so little to do that they actually went to other bodies, and started what they called the 1940 Committee for the purpose of getting private money to do the public planning which was the Government's business. When Lord Reith was engaged on actually

  1643
  doing this particular work one day he received a telephone message and was told that his job had been terminated.
  The next unfortunate incident was when my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) was a Member of the Government charged with these duties of reconstruction. He did take the supremely valuable step of asking Sir William Beveridge to produce a report, but that finished him with the Government, I believe, because the Government did not want any big planning project, although they were not able to suppress Sir William Beveridge's Report. I regret that my right hon. Friend parted company with the Government not long after that. Therefore, I regret to say that I cannot take the Government interest in big planning proposals seriously. It is true they have planned the war and that after a large number of failures in the beginning, especially in the East, they are now doing it very well indeed. As a Coalition Government, that is what they were appointed by this House to do. But, in my judgment, they have failed in every approach they have made to the bigger planning which is necessary for the time of peace. We want very big ideas in staff planning for the peace. I agree with the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) that we do not want to talk sob-stuff about the soldier coming back. The soldier does not want to have sob-stuff talked about him either. The soldier wants justice. He wants those of us who are in the House of Commons, especially those who have some knowledge of Service conditions, to do the right and proper thing for the country as a whole. What the country as a whole requires is to have real plans made and not go back to the bad old days.
  In his opening speech my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield asked the Government to withdraw the Bill. I hope they will. It is a bad Bill and it is a small Bill. It will need a bigger-minded Bill and a much more comprehensive Bill to do the work. If we pass the Bill, even if we amend it very considerably, it will be an obstacle in the way, and not an advantage. It is supposed to deal with blitzing and blighting. I have recently made a very careful personal inspection of a large part of my
  1644
  own constituency and some part of adjoining constituencies in Islington. I do not know how it is possible to separate blitzing and blighting. I do not know how it is possible to define the money which is to be spent on the blitzed area and the money which is to be spent on the blighted area, and that is not sufficiently defined in the Bill. The Bill is really one which will make difficulties. It will, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield said, create a long-term period of difficulty.
  May I refer, in conclusion, to the larger aspect of this matter? We, as one of the four main nations in the world—the U.S.S.R., the United States, China and ourselves, the British Empire, the British Commonwealth of Nations—are the people on whom the supreme responsibility will fall of making our ideals practical realities in the post-war world, with regard to the prevention of wars and the raising of standards of life in the world in general. How are we to do those things unless we have our own life properly planned, and how can we plan our life properly, unless we have some instrument at our disposal, some big planning Measure, which will enable us to make the necessary demarcation between the land to be used for industry, the land to be used for agriculture and the land for the planning of cities?
  I think that we need something very much bigger-minded and very much more far-seeing than this trumpery Measure. In fact, I do not think that we can get very good results by debating this Bill at all. It will, no doubt, be said if it comes to a vote—if the Government do not take the advice of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield and withdraw this Measure, or if there is a large vote against it, or a very considerable number of abstentions from voting in the Division—that it might lead to the resignation of the Government and the fall of the Coalition. The fall of the Coalition cannot be very long postponed. We are now within sight of the end of the war and it is quite certain that when we are a little nearer to the end, a demand for the return to healthy party Government will be overwhelming in the country. It would not matter very much if the vote on this Bill did lead to the fall of the Coalition. When we formed this particular Government it was at the time of Dunkirk, or just before Dunkirk, a

  1645
  time of crisis and great danger. It might be a very good thing indeed at the present time to have a change of Government, so that we could really get down to the question of post-war planning and planning for peace with new eyes and new vision, and without the pre-occupations of those who have been concerned with this war up to the present time, many of whom, Ministers and Members of this House alike, have lost touch with the people of the country. They do not know what the people are thinking, or what they are feeling. They do not even know the extremely horrible conditions of housing under which many people are living, otherwise it would have been quite impossible for the Minister in introducing this Bill earlier to-day to have spoken in the way he did about the Measure, the blitzing and the derelict areas.
  How soon the Coalition comes to an end does not seem to me to matter very much now, but that it is desirable it should come to an end very soon is, I think, shown by this Bill itself. With this Bill the re-planning of the destinies of this country on the large scale necessary cannot be taken in hand. We are not going to try to re-plan in order to have sob votes or make sob appeals to the men and women concerned in the Fighting Services, but because we, in this country, do want to take the occasion at the end of this war to make a great change in the planning of our cities and the location of industry. Where, in this Bill, is there one Clause which will help in the re-planning of the location of industry? Where is there one Clause that will help with the depressed areas where there was no industry before the war and will not be after the war unless there is some kind of re-planning on a bolder scale? Unless there is a big planning Measure really worthy of the national ideals of this country, we are not going to be able to get on with the staff work and the reconstruction in peace.
  I urge the Government very strongly indeed to consider what my right hon. Friend said to-day, and to which I add any support I am able to give. To withdraw this Bill would, at any rate, enable the Coalition Government to go on for a short time until we come to a stage more convenient for a dissolution and an election. But if the Government will not do that and insist on a good many
  1646
  of us—for that is what it will come to—voting against this Bill, then I hope they will realise it is their responsibility for having produced a Measure which is entirely insufficient for the great national occasion which stands before us.
  Mr. Stokes: On a point of Order. May I ask, Mr. Speaker, whether you are going to call any of the Amendments standing on the Order Paper?
  Mr. Speaker: I have not thought about that yet. To-morrow I will give an indication of what I am going to call.
  Mr. Keeling: I support this Bill, but I do wish, along with other Members who have spoken, that it were a little easier to understand. I am not one of those who attribute the obscurity of Bills to the incompetence of the Parliamentary draftsmen. The Parliamentary draftsmen have a good deal to put up with at the hands of Government Departments and of this House, and they do their difficult task, on the whole, extremely well. I wonder, however, whether the Explanatory Memorandum which precedes the Bill could not have been a little more explanatory. The memorandum states, as did my right hon. Friend in introducing the Bill, that it provides a simplified procedure for acquiring land. Personally, I find the provisions anything but simple, and the complications of Clauses 1 to 14 are very great. I do not ask for the delusive simplicity which my right hon. Friend the Minister rightly refused to provide, but I make the suggestion that in order to explain the proposed procedure for acquisition we should have a chart showing graphically, like a sort of genealogical table, the different stages from the moment when the local planning authority applies for the order up to the moment when the land is vested in them. There are some 15 different stages of that process, and the understanding of them would be greatly simplified if we could have them shown diagrammatically. It is too late to have this in the so-called Explanatory Memorandum, but I want to ask my right hon. Friend, or the hon. Member who is to reply, whether he would place in the Vote Office such a diagram in time for the Committee stage. I also make the suggestion that in future Bills we should have a diagram or chart in the

  1647
  Explanatory Memorandum itself. I hope this suggestion will not give the Parliamentary draftsman a fit, but I would remind him that his predecessor recovered from the fit which he had in 1875, when the Explanatory Memorandum itself was re-introduced, on the recommendation of a Select Committee of this House. I ask that my suggestion should have careful consideration.
  Now I come to an entirely different matter. My right hon. Friend, in introducing the Bill, said that a great many buildings would have to be erected under it, but he said little or nothing about the destruction of old buildings. The Bill ought to say something about the destruction of old buildings. My right hon. Friend rightly referred to the necessity of making our cities pleasanter places. It is quite clear that large-scale demolitions will be necessary, and the sooner the slum property on the land which is to be acquired under this Bill is cleared away the better. But in our enthusiasm to build a better Britain do not let us sweep away the traditional Britain carelessly. An England which consists of factory-built and other new houses, complete with every modern convenience, may make a brave new England, but it will not make the new England we want or an England which is likely to attract visitors from overseas. It is within the knowledge of every hon. Member of this House, that every county in England contains squares, terraces, streets and individual buildings and groups of buildings, chiefly of the Georgian period, which are not only beautiful, but are so much an integral part of the town in which they stand that every effort ought to be made to avert their destruction. These buildings were in most oases not only erected but designed by local builders, without the assistance of an architect, and it should be as much a matter of local pride to preserve them as it is to preserve a beautiful church or an historic castle. Moreover, many of them are in otherwise unattractive towns, oases in the deserts of dull, utilitarian bricks and mortar. That is all the more reason to try and preserve them.
  Yet there are many such buildings of the 18th and early 19th centuries which, not having the magic name of Wren attached to them, are still not accorded
  1648
  by municipalities the respect given to older buildings which have inferior claims to preservation. I could give many examples of ruthless and unnecessary destruction, causing irreparable damage to a town's amenities. I will not give any examples as I do not want to take up a lot of time. But I will pass round, if I may, a few photographs showing what has been done which ought not to have been done. Of course it is absurd to suggest that a building is only beautiful if it is old, or that fine architecture is only a thing of the past. But beautiful modern buildings should not, if it can be avoided, be put up at the cost of destroying beautiful old ones. After all, new pictures are usually painted on new canvas and not on the top of old pictures.
  Many of these buildings which should be preserved, if possible, are in areas likely to be acquired by local authorities under this Bill. I therefore make some brief suggestions. I suggest that this Bill should require, and not merely permit as existing Statutes do, local authorities to make lists of all buildings, whether occupied or not, which are, in the words of one of the Planning Acts,
  "of historic, architectural, traditional, artistic, or archaeological importance or interest."
  They should make these lists of buildings which are on the land they acquire under this Bill or which they already own. It is very desirable to entrust the responsibility for this to local authorities, for two reasons. The first is that local authorities ought to be encouraged to take a pride in their inheritance. Many already do so. Fine examples have been set by the municipal authorities of Dagenham, Ilford, Leytonstone, Brighton, Chichester, Cheltenham, my own Borough of Twickenham, and many others. The second reason for entrusting the task to the local authorities is that there are buildings of local historic interest which would perhaps escape the eye of a Government recorder. But the Minister ought to have power to add to the list prepared by the local authorities. There are many local authorities with limited resources who cannot, perhaps, afford the services of an architect, who would be very glad of the help of the Government. There are also some local authorities not in that category, who have a very good reputation for preserving the beautiful, but who sometimes slip up, and who, I think, would appreciate a Government check.

  1649
  Secondly, local authorities should be required to advertise any proposal to destroy or alter a building in the list, so that no final decision may be taken behind closed doors, without the knowledge of the inhabitants, and without providing an opportunity for suggestions for obviating the destruction. While it is true that many local authorities have earned bouquets for preserving old buildings, the main credit is sometimes due to public opinion, which has prevailed on the local council to alter previous decisions. Lastly, if any objection is raised to the destruction or alteration of a building on the list, the Bill should provide for the approval of the Minister to be sought before it is destroyed or altered.
  The preparation of these lists will take time, and it is not easy at this moment to get the necessary staff. I therefore make this further suggestion, that pending the preparation of these lists, all buildings constructed before a certain date should enjoy the protection which the list will eventually give. The date which I tentatively put forward is 1850, because that is the date to which I understand the Historical 'Monuments Commission is seeking to extend its powers. The selection of a date temporarily should of course not prevent newer buildings being added to the list when it is prepared.
  In spite of the destruction during the last 100 years by Englishmen, and in the last four years by the enemy, of much that is beautiful in this country, England still has a splendid heritage of 27th, 18th and early 19th century architecture. I beg the Government and the House to incorporate in this Bill some provisions for preserving that inheritance.
  Mr. Clement Davies: May I add just a few words to what the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling) has said? Very rightly, he has claimed that this country has a noble heritage of fine buildings—so it has—of which we are inestimably proud. But, unfortunately, we have also a heritage of slumdom, of which we ought to be ashamed, a heritage of slumdom which has caused disease and suffering untold—more suffering, more pain, more disease than even the attacks of the enemy. Before I come to this Bill might I refer to a very interesting speech that we had from the Senior Member for Cambridge University
  1650
  (Mr. Pickthorn), who very often treats us delightfully to a philosophic discussion? He put the question to himself as to what were the main objects of government, and he answered it himself, and said there were two. The first one was defence. Might I agree with him, while widening the defence which I feel the Government must always undertake? Not only should it undertake the defence of the country as a whole against an external enemy, it should also undertake the defence of the people against internal enemies, a defence against the exploitation of any person, a defence against poverty, against privilege being exercised by the few against the many, a defence against disease and against suffering. Approaching the matter in that way the hon. Member for Cambridge University saw in this Bill the defect of picking and choosing. I see the same defect in perhaps another way.
  Before I come to that, may I congratulate the Minister upon the wonderful defence which he made of this Bill? One has often, in this House, witnessed a good man struggling with adversity. We have had an excellent example to-day. He says himself that this is a Measure to deal with one particular section, namely, the bombed areas. I agree that the Bill, incidentally, deals with what are called 'blighted areas, but the two are, obviously, in his mind, and in the minds of the framers of this Bill, linked together. He urges the House to give a Second Reading to the Bill because the problems presented by those areas are the most urgent. That is really his main argument. In a sense he apologised for the Bill, and said "I agree that this has to be followed by a much broader Measure, but there is not time to do that now: we must deal with this extremely urgent problem." Whenever any speaker has talked about the urgency of the problem, cheers have come from that side. Is the problem of the bombed areas really most urgent? Those areas have suffered grievously. Today they are largely empty. The bombs have levelled the buildings, and the people have moved. Great masses of people in this country are now in areas where they are adding to the needs of the production Departments. New factories have been erected, new industries are there; and same places are not only over-populated at the moment, but it is to be feared that when the war ends the people there will

  1651
  be under-employed. I should have thought that the most urgent problem of all would be, what is to happen to those areas, how the people are being housed there, and what the Government propose to do about them.
  All the time the Government are approaching these matters by piecemeal legislation, bit by bit. Never was the country more certain of its national entity than it has been since this war started. It wants to consider everything nationally. The only people who, apparently, still want to consider it in the old-fashioned way, parochially, are the Government. We have had instance after instance this Session. There was education. They talked nationally, but they threw the burden upon the local parishes. They talked nationally about the provision of water for everybody, but they threw the burden on the parishes. So they" do here. They pick upon certain areas, and say "If you do certain things, within the definition provided by this Bill, certain things will happen; if you do not, you must wait and see what we are going to do." Cannot we really consider this vast problem as a whole?
  What I am so much afraid of all the time is that a little patchwork done here this year will prevent the great national plan ever being brought into existence. We have had so much experience of that. May I take education as an illustration? There is not a part of the country now that does not realise how badly the people have been served in the past. They are anxious for new education centres; they will probably draw up plans for better education centres, and submit them to the Ministry of Education. Where conditions have been thoroughly bad, and nothing has been done, it is easy to draw up a plan. They will all agree that it is necessary for them to be passed through, but where they have done their best in the past, and have put up a building in the last 20 years, they will be told, "You must build around that now, and do the best you can; it is too expensive to destroy it." In regard to these matters, the policy is to plan parochially, for selected areas only, and the very fact that people are working on these plans now will prevent a broader, bigger, more generous scheme being brought in later on.
  1652
  What is the real remedy? It is perfectly obvious. It is the Conservative majority in this Douse and in the Cabinet who have had their way. [interruption.] Oh, yes, obviously. It is not a measure that any of us on this side would have brought in. [An HON. MEMBER: "Labour Ministers agreed to it."] Certainly, they are consenting parties; and I hope that they will have to answer for it some day. One thing that causes me more anxiety than anything else is the possibility that the people of this country, acting as a democracy, may lose faith in their leaders. Men who have made an appeal to the people of the country on a certain principle, and have been returned to this House as defenders of that principle, then stand at that Box and deny that principle. It is likely to arouse cynicism—as it already has done—and cynicism may arouse discontent.
  Mr. Woodburn (Sterling and Clackmannan, Eastern): There is a war on, though.
  Mr. Davies: Of course there is, and we are fighting for a principle. But that is no reason why we should abandon the very principles that we stood for on platforms when we asked for the votes of the people.
  Viscountess Astor: Who are "we"?
  Mr. Davies: All of us, I hope; everyone who was returned to this House of Commons. The Uthwatt Report, in my view, certainly did not go far enough. That was because that Committee found themselves, in the main, limited by their terms of reference. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) pointed out, they came to the conclusion that the logical, proper remedy to apply was nationalisation—and remember that they were men who had not taken a prominent part in any political controversy; and at least one of them would be the last man in the world that I should have thought would have said anything in favour of nationalisation, having been a valuer of all these big estates. But they say, "We dare not do it now: the matter is urgent; it will arouse political controversy." [An HON. MEMBER: "That is not what they said."] That is the main reason; that is undoubtedly the dominating reason. Are

  1653
  those political considerations to be the ones that shall weigh in the balance of what is right and proper for the people? Apparently they weigh more strongly as to what happens regarding the future. This Bill again preserves, except in certain instances, the sanctity of private property in land.
  Mr. Gallacher: Ancient monuments.
  Mr. Davies: I agree. The interests of the few are to be protected, whatever may happen, and in only a few cases are we to give the people authority to acquire the land, and then only just sufficient for the particular purpose of a particular area. I cannot help contrasting this Bill with the attitude of all the hon. Members of this House in May and June, 1940. In May and June, 1940, the Deputy Prime Minister brought in a Bill, which passed through all its stages in a few moments, transferring to the Government of this country full power over all persons and over all property.
  Mr. Tree: For the prosecution of the war.
  Mr. Davies: Certainly; when we were in danger all was being thrown in, but, let the danger pass, and the hon. Member would say, "Give back to us the private property of the few." You fight for the land, but it does not belong to you; you offer your lives for the land, but it does not belong to you. But when the war is over the attitude of hon. Members is not what it was in 1940, when they said, "All is at stake, take everything." To-day the situation has changed, thanks to the courage of our men and of our Allies, and the attitude of hon. Members changes also.
  Mr. Gallaeher: Out on the grab again. Terrible people.
  Mr. Davies: The Government say, "Let us throw this burden on the local authorities." All we are going to do is advance them a sum of money, free of interest, certain for two years, possibly for another eight, possibly for another five, and pay for the charges of buying the land and acquiring it. As for the rest—"do what you can." All the time, this Government are throwing more and more burdens upon the local authorities without any care as to whether they can stand the burden or not. It has been done with
  1654
  regard to education. More than half is thrown on the local authorities—and it is called a national system. It has been done with regard to water; six-sevenths of the cost is to fall on the local authorities arid one-seventh upon the Treasury. This is another instance of shirking the real issue—the issue which the country was so anxious about, which is that, after the war, we shall all try to regard ourselves as one nation, helping one another, wherever help is needed.
  I am surprised at this Bill. It is about the only Bill of its kind that I have ever seen backed by so many distinguished names. The Prime Minister himself is supporting it, the Deputy Prime Minister is supporting it, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Air are supporting it, and then come the others. Why? It was necessary to add these names because of statements that have been made in the past with regard to what is going to be done, and also, perhaps, because of a little recollection as to the attitude they used to adopt years ago. There used to be a song, sung to an American tune, one of the most lusty singers of which was the Prime Minister, and one rather mild tenor voice piping behind him was that of the Secretary of State for Air. The main point of that song was "God gave the land to the people." To-day, we are only giving it to those areas that happen to be bombed or blighted. Why cannot we deal with the land as a vast problem and nationalise it all? How are we to tackle agriculture in this way? The landlord cannot do it; he cannot possibly afford it. I was full of sympathy with him in the old days. After all, our agricultural landlords were always pretty content with 4 per cent. gross, 2 per cent. net. They restored half to the land in improvements, in better housing and better buildings, but taxation has been such for the last 40 years that they have been unable to do it. Are we to ask them to-day, out of their income, to put agriculture on its feet, provide proper houses and buildings, and do the drainage that is required in order to produce the food for the nation? They cannot do it.
  The owner-occupier already mortgaged to the bank—how can he do it? There is only one authority that can do it and that is the nation as a whole. We passed a Bill the other day with regard to milk, making stricter regulations concerning the

  1655
  purity of milk, and now the officers are to be the officers of the Ministry of Agriculture. What is the good of officers if the building and amenities are such that you cannot produce clean milk? It is just sheer nonsense. I terminate my speech with the remark that I regard this Bill as unworthy of a great people in their greatest period of history, and I hope the Government will withdraw it. If they do not, I, at any rate, shall be voting against the Second Reading.
  Mr. Tree: I have neither the eloquence nor the desire to follow my hon. and learned Friend in the very wide realm which he has just covered in his speech. Rather do I want to bring the House back to reality and in order that it may study the Second Reading of the Bill which we are considering to-day. Just as a Coalition is a compromise, based on the need for a common policy to meet a particular set of circumstances, either international or national, so is the Bill that we are discussing to-day a compromise, and we have heard, in two successive speeches, one by the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) on the one side, and one by the hon. Member for North Islington (Dr. Haden Guest) on the other, two perfectly good descriptions of their respective points of view. In other words, the Left want nothing short of complete nationalisation, while, on the Right, many hon. Members dislike planning and abhor the word "compulsion," The question therefore arises, as it always does in a compromise of this kind, whether so much of principle becomes emasculated that, to all intents and purposes, what is attempted becomes incapable of fulfilment. Are we, by attempting to satisfy all shades of opinion on both sides of the House, going to produce something in the nature of a sanitary inspector to do the jab that requires a first-class architect?
  Under the provisions of the Bill, are we to be able to rebuild with the least possible delay, consonant only with one consideration of fair play, the blitzed towns and cities of this country, not in the old way, without any form or shape or plan, but in a manner that will gain the applause of future generations, perhaps 100 years from now? Is it going to enable us to tear away those horrible eyesores which are known in this Bill as blighted areas but which we, for 20 years, have got to know
  1656
  as Depressed Areas? Finally, are its powers wide enough for starting on the necessary plans so that towns or cities designated as other areas may proceed with their interim plans?
  It is with a view to considering whether these things could be done under the Bill that I have examined it from every angle, and I have considered it, too, from the point of view of the landowner, because I happen to be one myself. If I emphasise this, I do so because many unfair things have been said about landowners in the past, and particularly in connection with this Bill; they have been accused of trying to hold up the passage of this and other similar Bills and of thinking primarily of their own pockets rather than of the ultimate good of the whole. Talk of this kind should be repudiated, if by landowners are meant those people who live on and enjoy their own lands and estates, and if we are not discussing speculators in land values. If hon. Members opposite will take the trouble to inquire, they will find it very rare for local authorities to have trouble with the first category of landowners about whom I have been talking.
  Mr. Stokes: Am I right in interpreting the hon. Member as distinguishing between the landowners of the countryside and the landlords of the towns?
  Mr. Tree: I was talking about the landowners and the speculators in the areas ripe for development around the big towns and cities. In many cases it may be very hard for a landowner who has lived perhaps for many years, or his family for centuries, on an estate that becomes ripe for development, but I think that it will be found that in nine cases out of 10 he bows to circumstances and comes to a pretty fair agreement with the local authority. But in most instances, long before his property has become ripe for development, it has been bought by the land speculator. In many instances he lets it out to the poorest type of tenant farmer and waits for the right moment to make an advantageous deal. We have all of us known cases of that kind and the particular type of land speculator that it produces. Therefore, speaking myself as a landowner, I welcome this Bill. I welcome the placing of development into the hands of the local authorities, the manner in which the financial side of it is

  1657
  to operate, and further, I am in agreement with the main proposals in it and I believe it to be a perfectly workable Bill.
  My hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) did bring up two specific points which we believe would improve the Bill and I will mention them very briefly again. They are the two points in connection with compensation to be paid to owners of land capable of improvement. The first one relates to a man owning residential property below the rateable value under the Rent Restrictions Acts and occupied by him and his family. It is felt—and I think rightly felt—that if someone's home is expropriated he should be compensated not on the 1939 level, but on something like its present-day value, We all realise that the cost of building and so on has very greatly increased after five years of war, but a hard and fast rule of this kind would produce a good many anomalies. We believe that these anomalies would be reduced to a minimum if, instead of doing what is suggested under the Bill, preferential treatment were accorded to all owner-occupiers irrespective of the size of the property and including commercial as well as residential property, provided the need of alternative accommodation was proved. If anyone whose home was expropriated could show need for alternative accommodation for himself and his family, he should receive a price equal to the cost of similar accommodation. This would have the added inducement that it would exclude giving the speculator any further increase in price.
  The second class of owner who, under the Bill, will receive more preferential treatment, is the owner of agricultural land and buildings, subject to certain conditions as to their occupation. This Clause could be substantially improved if it was confined to that class of owner who has spent money on improving his farm or his buildings. A perfectly good parallel is given in the case of the farmer-tenant, who, on leaving his farm at the expiration of his lease, is compensated by the owner of the land for the amount that he has spent on it during his tenancy. I do not see why any additional payment should be made to a land speculator who, having bought his land with the object of selling it in a very short time, lets it to a grazier,
  1658
  spends nothing on improvements and will get under this Bill something for nothing. Therefore—and my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset brought this up also in his speech—a definite date should be fixed. Lord Reith, when he was Minister for Planning, in another place, on 17th July, 1941, issued a warning as to prices that should be paid, and why should it not be possible to fix a date, and after that time allow no further compensation to be paid?
  In conclusion I believe that the majority of this House are anxious to see the main provisions of this Bill carried out. They are aware that for a long time past there has been a crying need for legislation of this kind. In almost every instance they have come across in their own constituencies a local authority which has been unable to get on with its plans for the future because of lack of knowledge as to the intentions of the Government. I would therefore appeal to hon. Members on both sides of the House to swallow their objections to this Bill, to realise that it is very largely an interim Measure—the best that can be reached at the present time—and to get on with the study of the Bill in its Committee stage in order that it may be passed into legislation at the earliest possible moment.
  Mr. Stokes: I would like to deal with one or two of the points which have just been put by the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Tree). Let me say at once that I was glad to see some signs of progress in his concluding remarks, when, so far as I understood him, he seemed to join with me in deprecating that anybody should be able to get something for nothing out of the ownership of land. If that is the declared policy of the Tory Reformers I feel a little bit better to-day for having heard it.
  Viscountess Astor: Come over here.
  Mr. Stokes: The Noble Lady knows where she gets her income.
  An Hon. Member: She does not.
  Viscountess Astor: Where does the hon. Member get his?
  Mr. Stokes: Earlier in his speech the hon. Gentleman remarked that he examined the Bill from one point of view and one point of view only, and that was

  1659
  to decide whether or not the Bill would enable us to get on. By that, I suppose he meant get on with reconstruction and development on the lines which have been so often discussed in this House and elsewhere before. I do not propose to go into a detailed analysis of the Bill, but we on this side of the House do not think this Bill is anything like good enough, and I am satisfied to base my judgment regarding that particular aspect of the Bill on the two greatest living authorities I know on the subject of town planning—Lord Latham, who sits in another place, and my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin), who sits below me. They are unalterably opposed to the Bill.
  Viscountess Astor: What about Lord Astor, the only mayor who has a complete plan for a blitzed town?
  Mr. Stokes: I understood that Lord Astor is shortly joining the Communist Party on this very issue. At any rate the Noble Lady will be able to speak for her family in due course. May I say this also to the hon. Member for Harborough that in the remarks I am going to make—and I propose to make some vicious ones—I am not blaming the landlords. I agree with the remark made years ago by the Prime Minister on this subject, that he did not blame the landlords, but blamed the law. It is the law which is bad. It is no use blaming the landlords for taking advantage of the law, and anybody who sets up to say that they are not going to take advantage of the law when they get the opportunity seems to me to be claiming for them an odour of sanctity which they will find it extremely difficult to maintain. Therefore, I am not complaining about the landlords, but about the power which their ownership of land gives them, and I will develop that argument a little more fully later on.
  My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), with his usual eloquence, said that one of the things of which he was terrified was that the people of this country should lose faith in their leaders—in their Government, in other words—and in that I join him. I want to remind my right hon. Friend the Minister, of the broken pledges on this subject. Time and time again, we have had promises from Ministers that, to all intents and purposes,
  1660
  what is termed the 31st March, 1939, ceiling should be the maximum price at which land should be bought up. I want to quote now an answer which the Minister gave me in this House on that very subject. On 2nd December last, I asked the Minister of Town and Country Planning:
  "In view of the recommendation contained in the Uthwatt Report regarding the land values ceiling at 31st March, 1939, why it is not possible to consider to-day's values as well; and whether he will issue instructions that purchases, if any, should not be made above the 1943 or 1939 ceiling, whichever is the lower."
  To which my right hon. Friend replied:
  "The adoption of the recommendation referred to would not entail purchases at prices above the market value at the time of purchase. The second part of the Question, therefore, does not arise."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd December, 1943; Vol. 395, c. 505–506.]
  If my right hon. Friend will tell me that no Member of the Government—the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Deputy Prime Minister or himself—ever gave people to understand that the intention, during all that period of discussion, was that the 1939 ceiling should be the maximum and not the minimum, I will give way for him to deny it now. No, he will not deny it, of course, because he cannot, and it is, absolutely, a broken pledge. No doubt a great deal more will be said about that point from these Benches in the course of the Debate.
  I think I am right in saying that a great number, if not all on this side of the House, consider that the effect of this Bill will be—if I can put it that way—to re-entrench the landlords in a still stronger position than they were before in what the Prime Minister described as "the mother of all monopolies." Everyone knows that we are up against the monopolies. If I had any doubt about whether that was not going to be the effect of the Bill, my opinion would be reaffirmed by the attitude which hon. Members are taking towards the Bill. I have high authority for saying that, because the Property-Owners Association made this remark, "Well, we have been working very hard." Of course, the Property-Owners' Association have been very much behind the scene in all the discussions. Had I been fortunate enough, Mr. Speaker, to catch your eye——
  Mr. W. S. Morrison: I deny that I have received any representations from the Property-Owners' Association.
  Mr. Stokes: But the right hon. Gentleman does not deny the remark that they have been working very hard.
  Mr. Morrison: I do not know anything about them to that extent, but I wish to resist the imputation, if my hon. Friend intended it, that I have been influenced in my presentation of this problem by representations from the Property-Owners' Association.
  Mr. Stokes: I was not imputing anything personal to the Minister. I was saying that responsible persons, known to himself and myself as the Property-Owners' Association, made the remark, "We have been working very hard."
  Captain Cobb: Does not the hon. Member ever work hard himself?
  Mr. Stokes: Certainly, I am not complaining, I am merely saying that the satisfaction with which the Property Owners' Association and the hon. Gentlemen opposite accept this Bill, only shows how completely satisfied they are that their interests will be safeguarded. I can leave it at that.
  Unfortunately I did not hear the whole speech of the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn). I wish he were here now. I did not like to get up at the time but I would have liked to have followed him. I want to say one or two things now about what he said. He declaimed that the Government had two responsibilities: one to maintain the country from attack—in other words to defend the existing state of things so far as they were physically concerned; the second, to maintain the value of money. He said that they had signally failed to do so in the past five years, and then went on to declaim that they seemed to have chosen one set of persons above all others on whom the unfortunate incidents arising out of the war should most heavily bear, namely, the property-owners. I fail to understand what he means. As I see it, if you are a property-owner in a blitzed city, you get compensated for the loss of your improvement. That, surely, is accepted. The only thing we are arguing about in this Bill is how much they are to be paid for the land, and the hon. Member for Harborough will agree with
  1662
  me when I ask, Why should they be paid for something whose value they never created?
  That is what this Bill is about. It has nothing whatever to do with the compensation for blitzed buildings—that is under a different provision altogether—and why the hon. Member for Cambridge University, who is usually so correct in his approach to these matters, should confuse the House—even if not wilfully—by saying that the property-owners have been badly treated, I fail to understand.
  On this question of the value of money, I have heard it argued—though I do not think I heard it here to-day—that one of the reasons why it would be a good thing to accept the 1939 valuation as a ceiling was that money had depreciated in value since 1939. We did not hear very much about that on the Education Bill. Is it proposed that when that Bill comes into operation all grants will be 33⅓ per cent. higher? It would be extremely interesting if that turned out to be the case, but it seems to be an entirely fallacious argument. When I put it to the Chancellor he turned it down flat. He said, "We all rise and fall together." But not the property owners. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Does anyone want to interrupt, because I like to be interrupted? What I want to say to the hon. Member for Cambridge University is this: He put his finger on the spot when he talked about amounts which have to be paid in order to compensate landowners. But what he did not say was that 1939 prices were already disgracefully high. I want to deal with that point, because it is à propos of the Amendment which stands in my name, and that of other Members, on the Order Paper to-day, and which I understand you, Mr. Speaker, in your wisdom, decided not to call. It is the pith of my whole argument on this particular matter.
  Since the beginning of the war there has been wild speculation in land values. Some of my hon. Friends who come from Scotland can tell how land agents in this country telegraphed to Scotland to buy vast tracts of the Highlands, without having seen the places, at double and treble the value of the land. Take my constituency and the borough of Ipswich. What has been happening there? I will give two glaring examples of land speculation in 1939. What happens when war

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  breaks out? People rush to buy land, because it is the safest place in which to put their money. Here is the case of a small farm on the outskirts of Ipswich, the rental value of which was £26 8s. 1d. in 1939. This farm was purchased for £3,600. The Minister would not dare to get up and say that here was an enthusiastic farmer who was out to invest £3,600 in a farm which, apparently, gave such a small return. Next door there was another farm, the net rental value of which was £126, for which £10,000 was paid. [HON. MEMBERS: "When"?] In the middle of 1939. Is any hon. Member opposite going to say that the land value On 31st March, 1939, was 20 times £126 and that on 3oth October, or whenever it was, it was £10,000? Of course he will not. When Ipswich wants to develop it will have to pay through the nose for the land which it requires. All along the line this Bill fails miserably because it fails to deal with the question of land values. It sets out to keep the property owners quiet. If there were not a Coalition Government now every Member of the Labour Party would be opposing the Bill. If we accept the Bill we shall compromise ourselves hopelessly for the future. I join with other Members of the party in asking the Government to take it back. We do not want to force anybody into an impossible position, but we shall not let the Bill go through as it is. When the Minister says it is his intention to accept reasonable Amendments on the Committee stage my mind goes back to the Education Bill. Are we to have a Vote of Confidence every time we pass an Amendment? We did not succeed in getting one really fundamental Amendment to the Education Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] No, we did not.
  Viscountess Astor: The hon. Member's were not fundamental.
  Mr. Stokes: We did not get a single Amendment through on the Education Bill, in any way comparable in its fundamental character, to what will be required to put this Bill right. I do not want to detain the House for long; Members know my views on this matter, and on money matters [HON. MEMBERS: "And tanks."] No, I do not think I can get tanks into this discussion to-day. But on this money issue we are in the ridiculous position that the country will be asked
  1664
  to pay interest on their own credit, not on the credit of the bankers. Why should it be required to do that? If the Government will not agree to letting local authorities have money interest free why not let the municipalities issue their own money? I see no objection to that. It might keep property owners on their property, because they could not spend their money elsewhere than in their own localities. In all seriousness, something ought to be done about this land in a very radical way. As others have said before me, people have gone out to fight for the land, and when they come back they will find they have not got it. They will not be satisfied with that. In my view, and in the view of a great many of us, something ought to be done to hand back the land to the people. I agree there are different ways of doing it. Some are in favour of confiscation. Personally, I think that is an injustice which the British public will not put up with. [Laughter.] I do not know why hon. Members are laughing. I think it is unjust to confiscate, although do not let us forget that the land was confiscated from the people in the first place.
  Viscountess Astor: What date?
  Mr. Stokes: If the Noble Lady will only read her history she will find out that God made the land for the people, land which she and her kith and kin have "pinched" from the people——
  Viscountess Astor: Stop blaming everything on God.
  Mr. Stokes: The Noble Lady may have her own way, but perhaps she will let me get on with my speech.
  Viscountess Astor: I thought the hon. Member liked interruptions.
  Mr. Stokes: I like interruptions when they are of a constructive and inspiring nature, not when they are couched in such terms as to need a heavy shake of a physical nature in reply, which would be altogether out of place in this Assembly.
  The second alternative is nationalisation. I know a great many people on this side of the House think that they agree with nationalisation. I have always made it clear since I have been in politics that I do not—I am talking about nationalisation of the land, and not of essential industries. I think it would be most unfair to the community and to posterity,

  1665
  because the value of the land of this country, free of all developments, is £10,000,000,000 and if we are to borrow that sum on our own credit you will have to pay £500,000,000 a year interest. I do not see why people should be asked to do that. So I put nationalisation out of it for a second and most important reason, that to nationalise the land relieves the robbers, because that is what I call the landlords, of the obligation of making the best of their land.
  My third alternative is the subject-matter of the Amendment on the Paper in my name. I want to put a tax on the value of all land whether it is used or not, and so put a penalty on idleness. I know that hon. Members will say they have all helped to create the value of the land. That is true. They have all helped in so far as they have done any work at all. But those who have not, have not contributed to its value. Value attaches to the land by the work of the community and of no one else—the work of all the community. Why should the community be made to buy back the value which it has created itself? We make roads out of London, and millions of pounds of land values arise, and go straight into the pockets of the landlords. If the community wants to spread outwards, you have to pay a rack rent to the landlords before you can get on with the job. The community are constantly placed in the position of creating obstacles for themselves, by their improvements, and have to buy at enhanced values before they can take the next step. I appeal to the Government to take the Bill back and to bring in a decent Bill, with a thorough-going scheme for the taxation of land values in it as well, and then we shall be satisfied.
  Commander Galbraith: The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) made a very eloquent plea to the Government to produce their master plan for the nation as a whole, but it seems to me that such a plan would fill a very large volume. I can see no objection whatsoever to the Government producing that volume chapter by chapter, as I believe they are doing, and this Bill is one of those chapters. The purpose of this Bill, which, I take it, is to enable local authorities to acquire expeditiously land which they require for the rapid rebuilding of their areas which have suffered war damage, together with
  1666
  that land adjacent to it which suffers from bad or obsolete lay-out and should be developed in conformity with it, is one to which I cannot conceive that anyone can take serious objection. Therefore, it seems to me that in principle the Bill should be given a Second Reading. But it is a Measure of such complexity and is so technical in character, and the time that has been given to us to study it has been so utterly inadequate, that my right hon. Friend, even after the very excellent résumé which he has given of it, must expect to be asked for further explanations. He must expect to satisfy hon. Members further before they give their assent to the Second Reading. There is no doubt that the Bill expedites procedure, and speeds up the process of land acquisition, but that, it seems to me, can be of very little value unless at the same time we speed up the physical re-development of the land so acquired. That is a matter on which naturally the Bill is silent, but in some respects it may operate to the opposite effect.
  Under Clause 1, the Minister, from the commencement of the Act and for a period of five years thereafter, can issue an Order that any area of land coming within the terms of the Bill shall be subject to compulsory purchase, and during that period he can authorise a local authority to purchase compulsorily the land within its area so designated. Once the local planning authority has purchased, it can only dispose of the land by leasehold unless it first receives the consent of the Minister, and that, from all the indications in the Bill, will only be granted under very exceptional circumstances. I will refer to that point later; the point I wish to make now is that over the period of five years land which comes under the head of extensive war damage, and areas adjacent to it, may to a considerable extent be frozen in so far as development is concerned. No owner is going to proceed to rebuild or re-develop his property, or even maintain it, unless he is assured that the Minister will not designate the area in which the property lies as one which will be subject to compulsory purchase. The matter does not end there, for the same fear will apply to areas of over-spill, so that over a very wide area development may be held up at a time when it is essential that industrialists, merchants and traders should be modernising their premises so as to obtain

  1667
  the most efficient production and distribution. The end of the five-year period does not end the period of uncertainty. If a local authority does not actually purchase within the period the Minister can in terms of Clause 2, Sub-section (4) extend the period of compulsory purchase to eternity. It seems to me, therefore, that there should be some machinery under which an owner who wishes to develop may be assured that he can do so with reasonable security. That is a matter which my right hon. Friend mentioned but he did not develop it.
  The procedure under Clause 1 is reasonable. It is reasonably expeditious, and the public inquiry which the Minister must hold if objections are lodged is a reasonable check on the local authority, who, after all, are not always the last word in wisdom, and it also provides a safeguard for the individual. But when I come to Clause 2 (2) I seem to find that a certain suspicion is thrown on the intentions of the Government. If they intend to use the power in that Clause other than in exceptional circumstances those who, like me, pin their faith on the procedure laid down in Clause 1 may very well be deceived. I should be disinclined to support the Second Reading if I thought it was the Government's intention to make a general use of Clause 2 (2). I would ask for an assurance on that point and for further explanation of the purposes to which it is to be put, for at the moment it throws doubt on the honesty of the intentions set forth in Clause 1. I very much welcome the provision of Clause 1 (4), which requires the local authority to present a statement to the Minister as to the manner in which it intends to use and lay out the land which it desires to be subject to compulsory purchase. I hope that statement will enable my right hon. Friend not only to apply a spur to those local authorities who are behind the times but also to check these local authorities with whom the planners have run away. I sometimes wonder, when I look at the extraordinary plans they produce, whether they have entirely forgotten the purpose for which most towns and cities exist—trade and industry. When I look at some of them I see the banks of rivers laid out in broad boulevards when, as a matter of fact, they will have to be devoted to
  1668
  warehouses, quays and docks if industry is to continue.
  I also find, or so it appears to me, that in some of these plans they have altogether forgotten the small man. The planners all seem to be concerned with providing large shops, large offices, and large warehouses. They seem to have neglected to remember that a very large proportion of the industrial activity of the country is carried on by small men in small shops, small offices and small workshops. I hope that my right hon. Friend will see that the small man is guarded, that ample provision is made for him, and that the local authorities do not cater only for large and wealthy concerns. In that connection I was glad that my right hon. Friend mentioned flatted factories.
  I have no doubt that many hon. Members will speak either for or against compensation being paid on the 1939 value. I am prepared to accept that as a rough form of justice. I am not one who views with any favour, but rather regards with contempt, persons who speculate in land for the sole purpose of holding the public to ransom. These people are financial sharks. They are not landowners at all in the true sense of that word, and we should endeavour to keep the two separate in our minds, because they are oceans apart. The 1939 value was introduced to prevent speculators from robbing the public. A speculator of this nature is a very obvious person and I should have thought could have been got at otherwise, for the 1939 value may quite well inflict hardship and injustice on others. Let us take the example of a developer who purchased an area of land in 1938 and who, to enable him to proceed with his development, raised a mortgage on that land. He went ahead with the preparation of his plans for development but was prevented from going on by the war. If such a person is to receive only the 1939 value he will to a certain extent be robbed. He will be robbed of the interest he has paid on his mortgage, which normally he would have recovered. He will be deprived of the interest on his capital, which again normally he would have recovered, and he will receive nothing for the outlay he has made on his plans. So far as I can see, Clause 45 allows only for the physical development which has taken place since 1939. I am certain that it is not the intention of the

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  Government to inflict loss on persons of this nature, but there is nothing in the Bill that allows for adequate compensation being paid in these circumstances. I would ask that that point should receive the consideration of my right hon. Friend.
  That leads me somewhat naturally to Clause 25, Sub-section (5). It is laid down there that the local planning authority, or such other authority as is mentioned in the Bill, may make a reasonable allowance, such as it thinks fit, to persons who have been displaced from their homes or their business premises in regard both to the cost of removal and the loss suffered by the disturbance to their businesses. I suggest that in equity that Clause is far too one-sided. It should be obligatory on the local authority to recompense such persons, and they ought to have a right of appeal against an arbitrary decision of the local authority as to the amount of damage due to them. As the Bill stands, such persons have no rights and are entirely in the hands of the local authority. That is a situation that should be remedied. I have spoken already of the small man. He should be protected in every possible way, and to that end Clause 15, Sub-section (6), to which the Minister referred, requires to be strengthened. The Clause deals only with people who actually own the land, as far as I read it. It should be extended to include people who have been in business on these old sites and who desire to continue on them, unless there are the strongest possible objections to that course. Otherwise, goodwill, which may have been built up over generations, will he taken from them.
  I made a reference earlier to the policy under which the local planning authority becomes the owner of the land within the ambit of this Bill. I appreciate greatly the advantages of leasehold from the local authority point of view. I know well the expense to which local authorities have been put when they have been required to buy back land they previously owned for purposes of further development, such as the widening of roads. I wonder, if we are to go ahead with a tax on betterment, whether that would not do away with some of the disadvantages of freehold from that point of view. I would suggest that leasehold has disadvantages also. It has disadvantages in relation to development; because people
  1670
  do not pull down their buildings and rebuild when they are getting towards the end of the period of their lease, whereas if they had the freehold they would do so. I suggest that there should be given consideration to the question of whether there should not be a further extension of freehold than that indicated in the Bill. In many circumstances it would be advantageous.
  I have listened to-day, and I expect we will listen to-morrow, to a good deal of criticism of the financial provisions. To my mind they are reasonable, adequate and sufficiently flexible. Of course, they will not meet with the approval of certain local authorities who desire completely to re-develop their towns or areas at the expense of the general taxpayer. That is not an expenditure which the taxpayer should be called upon to pay. Generally, I welcome this Bill as showing the determination of the Government to hasten the redevelopment of the devastated areas. I have little to complain of in regard to principle, but a Measure of this size and complexity must inevitably raise cases of hardship and inequity. It is for the House to see that these cases are met to the greatest possible extent and to endeavour to see that all are fairly treated. In detail, the Bill calls for a much closer scrutiny than we have been able to give it. It may be that it will call also for considerable amendment. In the belief that my right hon. Friend recognises these facts and that he will act, as he has suggested, with sympathy, I propose to support the Second Reading.
  Mr. Hugh Lawson: As I understand that the Amendment in the name of myself and my hon. Friends to the Motion in the name of the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) is not to be called I would like to make my observations on the Second Reading of the Bill. I would like to begin where the hon. and gallant Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) began his speech. He regarded the Bill as the first of a series of Bills which the Government are to bring forward to complete the master plan. I do not see anything in the Bill or in the White Paper to support that idea. Indeed, I think it is clear from paragraph 40 of the White Paper that the Government regard the Bill and the White Paper as all that is necessary to secure adequate planning in the future. Therefore, those

  1671
  of us who consider the Bill to be inadequate should take this opportunity of saying what things we would like to see inserted in the Bill. It is an unfortunate procedure to introduce both the Bill and the White Paper at the same time, because it makes it possible for the Government to play one off against the other. Once we have dealt with the Bill, the matters contained in it cannot be raised again, and in this Debate we cannot raise matters which are in the White Paper. Unless we are careful we shall be caught between the two procedures. It is all the more important that we should take this early opportunity of dealing as broadly as we can with the whole question. The problem that the Government must face at the moment is much greater than war damage. The necessity for town planning existed prior to the war, and, indeed, in paragraph ix of the Uthwatt Report, attention is called to that fact. Any plan which is regarded from the point of view merely of war damage is bound to be unsatisfactory. I want briefly to go through some of the things which I consider make up the problem. First, there is density of population. I do not think that the main trouble is that our country is populated too densely. The majority of the large towns have sufficient land within their boundaries to house adequately the existing population, if it is properly used. A large city like Birmingham has an average density of 20 persons to the acre. Properly used, the land could give a satisfactory house for all the people living in Birmingham. That represents the average situation for all our big cities.
  Secondly, we have the phenomenon that many houses are inadequate to-day. That goes very much further than the blight to which the Minister referred. One can see that the idea of what an ordinary house should be has altered very much in the last few years. Most of the houses built before the last war may be found inadequate within a very few years after this war finishes. Thirdly, there is a very great lack of open spaces. Our system has been to build up a city without any provision for open spaces. Fourthly, our towns have not been planned in communities. Much of what we have called town planning in the past has been to work in exactly the opposite
  1672
  way. Large estates have been built at one density with people of more or less one income group and type, in a sort of dormitory suburb, which is not a community at all, and this is of course the result of the unfortunate idea of density-zoning, which is one of the tendencies which we must reverse after the war.
  I shall not at any length elaborate the problem, because it is well known to all those who have lived or passed through our big cities. It is so obvious that it strikes one immediately, but it is quite capable of solution. I do not think anyone can doubt that we have the knowledge and the skill to solve the technical problems. If I say that, on a conservative estimate, probably at least 50 per cent. of the houses in Britain will be rebuilt within the next 50 years in some way or other, it means that within the next 50 years we shall go through a process of rebuilding the majority of our large cities. If we have a master plan we shall be able to rebuild them so as to get rid of the defects which exist at the present time. The challenge of the present situation is that the war has put a stop to the bad development which was going on before the war and that we now have a chance of starting again on right lines. To do that it is essential to have a master plan, but that cannot be left for five or ten years. It must be made within the very shortest possible time.
  I would like to refer hon. Members to the Uthwatt Report on this matter because the Report stresses it very considerably. In paragraph 7 it says:
  "The many problems involved"—
  that is, in real planning—
  "may not be capable of solution by a system of patchwork mending of existing codes of law or piecemeal adaptations of existing procedure."
  That supports my contention that a master plan is essential. I am not trying to minimise the size of the job. It is a fairly difficult job, so it is very right that every obstacle should be removed from the planners and the public. Planning is not a thing which should be done only by an expert in the office but it should be done also by the democratic method of first giving the whole people the proposals and letting them think them out and express their views, and then giving them an opportunity of taking their part in the plan

  1673
  ning. That is something which cannot be done in five minutes. It will take two or three years, but every difficulty must be removed. One difficulty which exists is that in planning over a large area you have to consider not only the suitability of each piece of land to the purpose to which you wish to put it, but also its price. The planner has to put a certain population in a certain area with a certain number of essential services and industries, and arrange them to the best of his ability, but he has also to-day to consider the ownership of the land. That is a very big obstacle indeed, and unless we remove it and give the planner and the public power to decide without considering ownership or value, we shall impede our plans very much.
  In passing, I would point out that the Bill does not provide for the acquisition by compulsory purchase of land for the use of open spaces. Surely one of the biggest faults in our planning before the war, whether it was in the building which took place during the last century or the so-called planning of this century, was the complete lack of open spaces. Unless we have power to devote land to open spaces it will be good-bye to any master plan, for instance, such as the county of London plan, which is modest and is by no means revolutionary.
  Does the Bill do any of those necessary things? First of all, does it introduce a master plan? No, it does not. It has nothing to say on that matter. Indeed, the White Paper, which is the other part of the Government's proposals, says specifically in the last paragraph that it rejects the idea of a master plan. That is sufficient to condemn the whole Bill and the Government in the eyes of any person who is really interested in town planning. Secondly, does the Bill allow the planner or the public to decide the use of land only on its suitability? The answer is that it does nothing of the sort. In the first place, it is not comprehensive. It provides for the acquisition of land for certain limited purposes—war damage, obsolete development, overspill and other limited purposes—and it leaves out this very important matter of open spaces. The Bill does not allow the planner to look over London and to say: "Here is the land I want for certain purposes." He is restricted to planning only for certain purposes. And, again, if the planner has
  1674
  to choose between two pieces of land which he can use, he has to take into account the value of that land and the price he has to pay. I am not going to say a great deal about the injustice, as I think it, of the 1939 ceiling, which has now turned into the 1939 floor, in spite of the pledges which have been given. I think it is quite clear that if the local authority, or the local government servant working for the local authority, is to think in terms of "who owns the land?" and "What is the price of it?" that is good-bye to the real freedom which the planner wants. The Government's White Paper suggests that this will be all right because betterment and compensation are to balance each other. I do not believe that can happen, and again I bring the Uthwatt Report to support me in that contention. The Uthwatt Committee examined this question and did not believe that there is a method of balancing compensation with betterment. In paragraph 27 they say:
  "No scheme has, however, yet been devised under which in actual practice, compensation and betterment can be equated in this way."
  I think that evidence of the Uthwatt Committee speaks for itself. As far as the Bill is concerned, that is what we are talking about now. The local authority has to bear the cost after two years, or after eight years in certain circumstances, or finally, in the last resort, after 15 years. That makes it quite clear and conclusive that if the cost of the land has to be taken into consideration the freedom of the planner to decide entirely on suitability 's gone for ever.
  The Bill therefore fails to do those things which are necessary for real planning, and the only solution, that is, the comprehensive use of land, and real freedom of choice, does lie in the public ownership of land. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) said in his speech, the Uthwatt Committee maintains that that is the logical thing to do. I do not need to remind the House of that quotation which comes from the Uthwatt Report. I think we can say it is the logical thing to do, considering this matter as an isolated and detailed matter. The second thing is that you can ignore the problem of betterment, shifting value, or floating values only if you have all the land under one ownership. That is really the whole point of

  1675
  the Uthwatt proposals, that if land is under one ownership the question of determining shifting value and so forth does not arise. I do not want to weary the House with too many quotations, but it is important that these matters should be put before the House. Seeing that this paragraph has not been quoted up to now I would like to quote it. Paragraph 38 (d) says:
  "It is only if all the land in the country were in the ownership of a single person or body that the necessity for paying compensation and collecting betterment on account of shifts in value due to planning would disappear altogether."
  That is an unanswerable argument for the public ownership of all land. There is a general case for this matter, to which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield referred. We are not making that case at the moment. We are discussing mire detailed matters. Apart from that case—the general case—for the national ownership of land, there is this detailed case which I do not think has yet been answered.
  Mr. Molson: The hon. Gentleman did attach some importance to the quotation he has just read from the Uthwatt Report. I have just looked it up myself. It, of course, refers to the time when compensation and betterment were dealt with by local authorities, and not nationally. Under the proposals put forward in the White Paper, they would be dealt with nationally.
  Mr. Lawson: I agree that that is the context of the quotation, but the fact that up to the present time, no scheme for the collection of betterment has been devised, which has really worked, tends to show that any such scheme would be likely to fail in the future. Indeed, the Uthwatt Committee having considered this matter, made proposals which are entirely different, which shows that, in their view, the policy of setting off betterment against compensation is not one which would work. I think that deals adequately with that point.
  The Uthwatt Committee, in spite of coming to the logical conclusion that the public ownership of the land is the only solution, rejected it for three reasons. The main and first reason, as has already been stated, is that it would arouse keen political controversy, but it is just as easy, I
  1676
  think, to fight the main issue as to fight this side issue. Secondly, they put forward as a reason for rejecting it that it would lead to complicated administration. I think those who have the task of carrying out the proposals of this Bill—the local authorities—are agreed that the proposals in the Bill are complicated too, so if it is a matter of choosing between one complication and another, I really do not think that that objection is a very strong one. The last remaining reason why the Uthwatt Committee reject on practical grounds the suggestion of public ownership of land is that it would entail financial operations that might be out of the question.
  I want to turn the attention of the House to the financial operations that might be necessary in the public ownership of land. The Uthwatt Report in paragraph 32 does have something interesting to say about the principles which underlie the compensation for land when it passes into public use, or when its use is restricted. Broadly speaking, they lay down these principles, that if land is taken into public use it is subject to compensation, but in the case of rights in land which it is deemed necessary in the public interest should be extinguished, unless there is some specific provision to the contrary, there is no claim there for compensation. I think we can put it in another way. The present position is that when a private right is no longer in the public interest, it may be extinguished without compensation, so long as something is done to prevent any real hardship to the person who enjoyed that right. That is the sense of the paragraph in the Uthwatt Report to which I have referred. I want to extend this principle to the two rights which ownership of land conveys to the individual.
  The first is the right of the use of land, and the second is the right to enjoy an income from land. I think I have said sufficient to show that my view is that the right of an individual to use his land exactly as he wants is so contrary to planning that it should now be extinguished. The community must take to itself the right to decide how land may be used—that is positive planning. I come to the second point, of the right to draw income from land. I am sorry that the Senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) is not here.

  1677
  [HON. MEMBERS: "Here he is."] He spoke largely on the question of justice. I wish to look at this problem, of the right to receive income because of ownership, from the point of view of justice, in a society which is rapidly moving towards a planned economy. I am assuming for the purpose of this argument that we have a planned distribution of income——
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Charles Williams): The planned distribution of income would be outside the scope of the Bill.Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Charles Williams): The planned distribution of income would be outside the scope of the Bill.
  Mr. Lawson: I have made my point on that, and hon. Members will know what is in my mind, although I cannot develop that point. In a society which really accepts the idea of a master plan, whether in the development of our land or in the development of other things, there are two factors to be taken into consideration. First, is the person owning the land in need of the income? In a planned society, the need of an individual must entitle the individual to income. Secondly, is the person owning the land doing any constructive work for society, which would entitle him to income? A person who is contributing something to society, in the way of management of land for instance, is entitled to income. But I do not think that, on a basis of justice in any planned society, it can be said that those owning land and doing nothing for it, should be entitled to income from it. I maintain that we can have a compromise between the two proposals to which the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) referred: a cross between compensation—[An HON. MEMBER: "Expropriation."] No, compensation, what the hon. Member called nationalisation—compensation of 100 per cent., in the form of Government bonds, of the value and confiscation. The compromise that I propose is this: A person who has a relatively small income from the ownership of land would receive no diminution of income when the land passed to the public, but a person who has a large income could, quite fairly, be given a small fraction of his previous ownership. [An HON. MEMBER "Where would the borderline be?"] The borderline would be——
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: This is where the hon. Member is trying to get past my Ruling. The question of distribution of
  1678
  income does not come within the scope of the Bill.
  Mr. Lawson: I do not wish to make a general case on distribution of income, but to apply it to the Bill, which provides for the purchase of land by the community from individuals. I think it is open to me to state the way in which the purchase should be made. The method should be a life pension of 100 per cent. for the person who had a small interests in land, and, for the person who had a large interest, a small proportion of that interest, in the form of a life pension. That would get round the third difficulty, which the Uthwatt Committee foresaw, of financial considerations that were on a very large scale. That is a proposal which I put to the House. It is essentially a practical one and a fair one, to which I and my hon. Friends attach some importance.
  Again, I would like to refer to the findings of the Uthwatt Committee. They review the work that Ministers and Governments have done in the past, with regard to town planning. Referring to the Minister, they say, in paragraph 13, that his function has been largely to secure fair play to the owners of property. If you want to sum up the attitude of the party opposite on the whole question of town planning, it is to secure what the Uthwatt Committee call "fair play to the owners of property." I should like to put it another way. They wish to put the rights of property before the rights of man, the rights of an individual in the community.
  Major Sir Derrick Gunston (Thornbury): Who are "they"?
  Mr. Lawson: The Conservative Party. That is what underlies the whole Conservative approach to town planning. On that basis, there never can be a satisfactory Bill. This matter is one on which coming generations will judge us very carefully. If we look back to a previous generation, we can see, to some extent, the sort of society they had, by the way they built their towns. Town planning is something permanent. Therefore, what we do now, will reflect on our society. Shall we be judged as we judge a previous generation? I have two prints in my hand—they are very small indeed, and I am sorry they are not larger. One shows a plan, which Sir Christopher Wren pro-

  1679
  duced, for the rebuilding of London after the Great Fire. The other shows how the city of London was actually rebuilt. We judge that generation, and say that they failed in a glorious opportunity. If we fail to take the opportunity which the present war has given us, we shall, very rightly, be judged to be men of no vision, as the men who did not carry out Wren's plan are judged. Therefore, I and my hon. Friends will most certainly vote against this Bill.
  Mr. Bossom: I want to congratulate the Minister on the very clear way in which he described a most complicated Measure, though I am not sure that everybody here will agree with every part of that Measure. But everybody will agree that very seldom do we hear a Measure explained so carefully that everybody can understand it. I think there are two other points on which everybody in the House will agree. The first is that the Minister should not have waited any longer before presenting the Bill to the House, and the second is that it would be quite impossible for any Minister to bring in a Bill on this subject with which every hon. and right hon. Member would agree, certainly the first time he presented it. I assume that many Members will speak on the difficulties of the local authorities, and will raise the problems of the private owner and the question of the financial arrangements. I will not deal with any of those points. But I will attempt to call attention, very briefly, to the planning difficulties which this Bill may encounter.
  The Bill describes how local authorities can get control of their land. It divides the land into several categories. This can hardly fail to cause many authorities to do much of their planning piecemeal. That is a great disadvantage. All experienced planners agree that it is important that they should not only know what they have to do in the way of planning, but also that they should know at the inception the area upon which they are going to have at their disposal. For that reason, I feel it very desirable for the Minister to ask all local authorities to think of this problem in the widest way they can, and not only as one of blitzed or blighted areas, to see what their requirements of land amount to but also what will be required to
  1680
  enable them to carry out their projects They should submit the whole of these, both the area of land needed and their proposed development of it, to the Minister at the one time, because, if they do not do that, the Minister's official planners will have great difficulty in making their comments and recommendations. Planners, with full information before them, can face their problems and analyse them thoroughly. There has not always been enough emphasis in the past that developments upon blitzed land might not in the future be more satisfactorily placed on blighted land and vice versa, but local authorities cannot do much about such improved arrangements until they submit their plans to the Minister and the Minister has approved the total amount of land for all purposes over which they are to have control. Until the whole series of processes required to get the land allowed by the Minister has been gone through satisfactorily, it is impossible for the local authorities' planners appropriately to prepare for all they have to provide for.
  Next as to the question—Have we actually got the planners themselves capable of doing the planning? That is, I think, a very serious question. This country has not seriously been a "town-planning-minded" country for a very long time. We have had a town-planning institute for some years and have trained a number of people, but the scale of the task to-day is so tremendous that I am sure—and I have inquired of a number of my informed friends and they agree—that we have not enough experts trained in town planning to do all the work required satisfactorily and speedily enough to get our reconstruction going at the great rate that we shall need. It would be unfortunate, too, if an attempt were made to give all local authority planning work to a few well known highly trained specialists. A few men, experienced, have been called upon by a great many authorities to do a vast amount of this work. It stands to reason that, as there are only 24 hours in a day, and planners, like anyone else, can only do a certain amount in a limited time, if too many authorities employ the same men they are either seriously overworked and cannot give their best or have to leave the work to assistants who, unfortunately, can only make a second-rate arrangement, instead of a

  1681
  really first-rate job that all would desire. I think all will agree that our planning must be not only imaginative—and not the heavy drab developments we have so often seen in our towns and cities in the past—but that this chance must produce a plan which is scientifically accurate and has an artistic quality about it. The importance of these matters cannot be overrated.
  How can we get this? There are many trained architects who have had no experience in town planning, but it would be an easy matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister, in consultation and association with the Minister of Education and the several learned bodies interested, to start a few special post-graduate town planning courses—I think even a short period such as six months would be enough—to turn many of our practising architects into expert town planners. If this is not done, I fear we shall not get the work of the high quality that we ought to have.
  Mr. John Wilmot: Would my hon. Friend say how that can be done under the various procedures envisaged by this Bill?
  Mr. Bossom: I believe that the way to do this successfully is to require each local authority to state its full requirements of land of all classes at once, and to make a thorough plan of each area all combined into one complete lay-out. The Minister said to-day that he would be willing to consider any constructive Amendments, and, with that in view, I am emboldened to make this suggestion that he should consider an Amendment if placed on the Paper which would require the whole of the land of an authority's area to be considered as a whole. The Minister may not think it desirable to grant full powers over all such land of the several categories right away, but there are not going to be either the men or the materials ready to carry out the necessary reconstruction work right away. Nor are there going to be all the financial arrangement ready right away, but if the Department could approve such entire lay-outs dealing with the full amount of land, and then, by stages, as it is fitting to do so, grant the local authorities the right to carry on with acquiring control and doing their work, I am sure there would be much
  1682
  more likelihood of a satisfactory arrangement than we may otherwise get. Many hon. Members may think that these matters are unimportant and that the financial arrangement is the one thing that matters. But we must not forget that the actual arrangement of the land, its planned lay-out as agreed upon new, will decide the face of our country for the next 100 years, and that it is literally a case of "now or never." We must do our utmost to get the right lay-out now, for once settled it can never be changed. It is not likely that there will ever be another case of the Germans corning over and being allowed to knock our towns down another time.
  Mr. Hugh Lawson: Will my hon. Friend not agree that, to get the sort of planning that he requires, the planner must consider the whole of the land in any town, or in the country, and not confine himself to the amount of land which the local authority wishes to acquire?
  Mr. Bossom: I did not say that. In my opinion it is not desirable for the Minister to make a general plan, to cover all arrangements, but it is desirable for the Minister to give a lead as to how the work should be done—where industry is to be carried on, where open spaces should be provided, and hospitals, schools and housing work generally located as a matter of principle, but it is not up to the Minister to plan completely the country. I do not believe anyone wants one man to decide in every way how England is to be fashioned; we want to get the benefit of a variety of ideas, the benefit of all our informed people. Each separate authority should state its own requirements and desires, but these should be co-ordinated by the Minister—not determined by him. I feel that we should face this situation with a very broad and open mind. I hope the Minister, when taking note of constructive and practical Amendments that are put down, will accept all that may be helpful. May I repeat that I am pleased the Minister has brought in his Bill, and I hope he will Make it into a great monument in the progress of our nation?
  The Parliamentary -Secretary to the Ministry of Town and Country Planning (Mr. Henry Strauss): I think it would be convenient that I should speak now, not,

  1683
  of course, to limit the length of the Debate, which goes on for another day, but in order to answer some of the questions raised, and perhaps to correct a few misconceptions. I think I have listened to every speech made in the course of the Debate, and I do not think I have ever left the House for more than two and a half minutes. I shall do my best to answer some of the points various Members have raised, but if I deal with certain general aspects, and answer some of the points raised by two or more Members together, perhaps without naming them, I do not think that I shall be held to be guilty of any discourtesy.
  In all the speeches that have been made there have been two points of agreement. The first is that this Bill is a difficult Bill to master, and is long and complex. The second point is that it deals with problems of vital importance on which every Member of the House hopes that a wise solution will be reached. If we are agreed on these two points, the first question that arises in our minds is this: Is the complexity necessary, or can the Bill be greatly simplified? Have the Government produced a long and complicated Measure from pure cussedness, or is its difficulty due to the difficulty of the subject matter, and is its complexity explained by the need for dealing with several distinct problems by provisions which are apt and suited to each? If, as I shall try to show to the House, and as my right hon. Friend and I will try to show on the Committee stage, this last is the true explanation, it may be found that the complexity of the legal provision for all cases means simplicity of working in each. If I may venture to draw a parallel from Bradshaw's Railway Guide, hon. and right hon. Members will find that a long, difficult and dull document to read through, but in time of peace it enables you to plan your journey quickly, with accuracy and precision.
  The matters with which this Bill deals have been summarised by my right hon. Friend, in a speech to which tribute has been paid in every quarter of the House. I am not going to repeat all the purposes of the Bill. Let me mention these however. The Bill enables areas requiring redevelopment to be acquired as a whole, secondly, it immensely expedites the process of acquisition, and, thirdly, it regu-
  1684
  lates the price. Since I believe that all hon. and right hon. Members realise that these objects are desirable objects, I would ask the House to treat this matter, as I am confident they will, with a proper sense of responsibility. We really must be practical. If this Bill is a workable Measure, it is quite useless for hon. and right hon. Gentlemen to say that they would have preferred a perfectly different type of Bill if to their knowledge the different kind of Bill which they would have preferred could not live for five minutes in this House.
  Sir Richard Acland: The Minister says we cannot have a Land Bill because the Tory Party disapproves of it.
  Mr. Strauss: That is true of a Bill of which the Tories disapprove, and it is equally true that we cannot have a Land Bill of which the Labour Party disapproves. This Bill was approved by the War Cabinet—the leaders of the Labour Party, the leader of the Liberal Party and the leaders of the Conservative Party. I agree that it has not got the approval of the leader of the Common Wealth Party. If it had, it would have carried no conviction whatever in any section of the country.
  The Uthwatt Report deals with the question of acquiring areas needing reconstruction as a whole, in paragraph 145 in the final Report, which hon. Members will find on page 61. The Town and Country Planning Act of 1932, in Section 25 (1, b) recognised the principle of purchase, in order to secure satisfactory development, but did not contemplate the purchase of whole areas. Moreover, it only contemplated such acquisition in pursuance of an operative scheme. The Housing Act of 1936, in Section 34, enabled whole areas to be acquired, provided that the need arose from over-crowding, but until this Measure was introduced to-day, never has there been any existing machinery for acquiring, in the interests of good planning, whole areas which needed reconstruction. Every enthusiastic planner who has studied the subject of planning—and I would mention my astonishment at the number of speeches that have been made by people who, admittedly, have not even read the Bill—knows that that in itself is a very great advance.
  Mr. John Wilmot: I apologise for interrupting the hon. Member but this is an important point. Can he give some idea what he means by "whole area"? Does he mean all London, the damage in one area, or a whole borough?
  Mr. Strauss: The hon. Member who has interrupted me, and for whose intervention I am grateful, raises a very important point. I refer to the powers in Clause 1 of the Bill. I am very sorry that in speakng to-day I have not the advantage of following my hon. Friend, which would have given me the greatest pleasure, just as to follow me may give him same pleasure. What I mean by acquiring an area that can be acquired as a whole is explained in Clause 1 of the Bill to which I may have occasion later to refer. I said that until this Bill was introduced there was no existing machinery for acquiring areas as a whole which needed reconstruction. The Uthwatt Final Report, in paragraphs 160 to 182, which hon. Members will find on pages 65 to 73, recommended that that defect in the law should be remedied, and the Bill, in its general outline, follows the principles of the recommendations of the Uthwatt Committee to which I have referred.
  If I may repeat what my right hon. Friend the Minister said to-day, we must distinguish two quite separate subjects—the authorisation of purchase, and the carrying out of the purchase. On the authorisation of purchase, I want to say a few words. I would apologise first to all hon. and right hon. Members in the House, who share my love of good English, for the really horrible terminology which necessarily occurs in some of these provisions of the Bill. It is really difficult to avoid this terminology because it is in constant use by local authorities and others concerned. I do not like "overspill" and I do not like "flatted factories" or "referencing" but all these terms occur, and I shall probably be wearying the House if, in the interest of good English, I avoid a terminology which I agree is not elegant. The maim difficulty on the first stage, the authorisation of purchase, has been the difficulty and length of time involved in referencing, that is to say, in compiling the book of reference of all owners, lessees and occupiers and of their individual holdings which is scheduled to the instrument by which authorisation is sought,
  1686
  and secondly, in serving notice of the proposal on each of them separately. This could cause a delay of two years or more. Under the procedure of the First Schedule, which is the procedure operative for the main provisions of the Bill, all that is swept away and replaced by full and speedy advertisement.
  Now as to the carrying out of the purchase. Here we provide a new procedure which will be found in the Sixth Schedule. The order itself operates as a notice to treat. Shortly after that the planning authority may serve on occupiers notice of entry, and on the expiration of that notice the land is vested in the acquiring authority. All compensation questions can be settled subsequently without delaying the reconstruction programme. All these provisions for completion have, for the reasons given by my right hon. Friend, had to be grafted on to the Lands Clauses Acts under which such an immense body of case law exists that had we attempted to have a new code and sweep all that aside, instead of producing a simpler Measure it would have produced a more complicated Measure and, instead of producing a Measure under which all persons concerned can ascertain their legal rights and obligations, it would have produced a novel Measure under which, unfit the courts had adjudicated, many matters would have remained uncertain for an indefinite period.
  There are great differences of circumstances in the areas with which we are now concerned. There are the completely devastated areas—I do not think I am offending against security in revealing that Coventry, Plymouth, Portsmouth and other cities have suffered blitz damage. These facts are now well-known, and there are areas that are completely devastated. I think it was the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) who suggested that the rebuilding of blitzed areas should have no priority whatever, but I am glad to say nobody else took that very strange view. The very curious speech which he made seemed to me, if I may say so, a mixture of Jeremiah and Mrs. Gummidge. Other areas are slightly damaged in some cases and they have this important quality, that most properties in them are still in beneficial occupation. As a result of these differences the problems can be handled at different rates according to circum-

  1687
  stances, but at some stage they become very urgent and therefore, at the moment at which they become urgent, new and expedited procedures become available. In the case of blighted areas, the urgency is mainly at the second stage, the stage of quick completion when it is once decided to go ahead with the reconstruction of the blighted area. May I express my agreement with the extremely able exposition of the situation by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ilford (Mr. Hutchinson)? He is quite right in saying that in areas of mixed blight and blitz—if hon. Members will excuse the phraseology—the whole of the area can be acquired under the Clause 1 and Clause 2 procedure.
  I now come to the question of the public local inquiry. Complaint has been made—not I think in this House to-day but in a Memorandum by the local authorities—that a public local inquiry is generally unnecessary and merely delays matters. They quote, to support their argument, a recommendation of the Uthwatt Committee in its final Report, paragraph 166:
  "that there should be no public inquiry in any case unless the Central Planning Authority or the appropriate Minister should, having regard to all the circumstances, think it desirable."
  Considering the way in which in this Bill we have faithfully followed many of the recommendations of the Uthwatt Committee, I am going to treat the Uthwatt Committee with great respect as I always do, but, on this particular point of whether we should have local inquiries or not, I believe the House of Commons is an infinitely better judge than the Uthwatt Committee.
  Earl Winterton: Or any committee.
  Mr. Strauss: Or, as my Noble Friend says, any committee. I agree with him. It is absolutely essential to avoid unfairness or the appearance of high-handed action. Experience under the slum clearance provisions of the various Housing Acts, which had to be frequently amended because of this very difficulty, shows that local authorities simply will not operate provisions which an important section of their public thinks are unfair. I am absolutely convinced myself that reconstruction proposals can be carried out with much greater ease if they are backed by a convinced public opinion. After all,
  1688
  people have a great deal of local patriotism. Are they not entitled to have some idea of what the local authority proposes to do with the land it is acquiring? Is there any Member in this House who really desires that a local authority shall be in general empowered to acquire land, without disclosing publicly to anybody any of its intentions, merely by approaching the Minister and getting his consent? I believe that such a proposal would be regarded with abhorrence by the people of this country, and I do not believe it would be passed by this House. I believe it would be opposed by hon. Members in every quarter.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: Since the hon. Gentleman has made reference to the arguments of the local authorities, is he not also of the opinion that all those organisations of every form of local government in this country which have condemned this Bill in their statement are not also equally capable of understanding or realising what public opinion wants and needs in this country?
  Mr. Strauss: No, I do not think that an association—I shall mention that document later, I am not going to run away from the argument—or all the associations of local authorities are so directly in touch with public opinion as hon. Members of this House.
  Mr. Davies: Some hon. Members are members of local authorities.
  Mr. Strauss: In some cases. We need not get hot and bothered about this. I have expressed my views and the hon. Member is entitled to differ from them. I say that the people of this country and Members of this House are in favour of some publicity by means of a local inquiry, and that normally a local authority should not be empowered to acquire land without giving any indication of what it proposes to do with it.
  Earl Winterton: Because we are not Fascist like the Association of Municipal Corporations.
  Mr. Strauss: I am tempted to agree with my Noble Friend, but I do not wish to engender more heat than is necessary. I should like hon. and right hon. Members in this House to consider the interests of the wide community which may be affected by these proposals for acquisition. I say that in general a public inquiry is

  1689
  justified from no less than three points of view. First of all, it is desired by the public. Some people speak as though the only people who appear at local inquiries to raise any objection to the scheme of the local authority are the owners. I think the owners have every right to appear and to criticise a scheme, but they are not the only people who appear—amenity societies appear, civic societies appear, and I say that constructive suggestions for a good scheme for the area do, in fact, arise at local inquiries. That is the experience of the Ministry of Health, our predecessors in the administration of the Planning Act, and it is our belief.
  Secondly, I believe that it is eminently desirable to have these public inquiries from the point of view of the planning authority itself. I do not wish to encourage the Naboth's vineyard mentality, merely because some local authority thinks it would like a bit of land and has not thought out in the least what it is going to do with it. In that case there is no ground whatever why it should have that land. The local planning authority will, in fact, produce a better plan if it has to give some indication of that plan to its own public at a local inquiry.
  Thirdly, it is desirable from the point of view of the Minister. Even the document mentioned by the hon. Member opposite suggests that the Minister should have power to hold a local inquiry in exceptional cases. Who has to decide whether the cases arc exceptional? What I am quite certain of is this: If, as the Uthwatt Committee recommended, he is to have discretion to order a local inquiry in every case, then I say that any Minister of Town and Country Planning, no matter to what party he belongs, will in fact in every difficult and disputed case order such a local inquiry. The Government took the view that it would be better to set out in the terms of the Statute that a local inquiry shall be the normal course so that the House should know exactly what was intended. If important projects were carried into effect without public inquiry, indignation would be aroused and obstruction would be provoked, quite out of proportion to any possible saving of time. It is, therefore, desirable that the objections anybody may have should be aired at a public inquiry.
  Now I pass to another part of the Bill, dealing with re-development after acquisi-
  1690
  tion. I will mention only two of the Clauses which have beer; referred to in speeches or interjections. I think the hon. Member for Kennington (Mr. Wilmot) referred to Clause 16, Sub-section (3), of the Bill which states:
  "The Minister shall not give his consent for the purposes of the last preceding Subsection as respects any operation if it appears to him that a person other than the local planning authority is able and willing to carry it out at such time and in such mariner as may be requisite for meeting the purpose for which it is needed"
  The hon. Member indicated that he might be tempted to criticise that Clause as leaving the local authority with too limited a class of case in which it could itself do the development. That is, of course, a Clause that will be fully discussed in Committee, but it may be well to remind the House that on this matter we are following fairly closely, and more generously from the hon. Member's point of view, the recommendation of the Uthwatt Committee. That Committee's recommendation on the subject will be found in Paragraph 150, on page 62 of their final Report, which says:
  "It may be that the necessary development or re-development is one upon which private enterprise is unwilling to engage."
  Now I come to the operative words, to which I would like to draw the attention of the House:
  "We therefore recommend that the authority should have compulsory powers to purchase land for positive development or re-development by the authority themselves, but only where this is essential to accelerate the carrying out of the planning scheme."
  I merely draw the attention of Members to that because the limitation in the Clause is, in different words, the limitation which is the recommendation of the Uthwatt Committee. The other matter in connection with these re-development Clauses was raised by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) in his able speech. It was in connection with the provision in Clause 15, Sub-section (5), which limits the disposal in ordinary cases to the grant of leases. That, again, is in accordance with the Uthwatt Committee's recommendation, which will be found in Paragraph 147. It is right that this matter should be fully discussed, but the reason for the preference for leases is that when once you get good planning you do not have the difficulties all over

  1691
  again years afterwards. The Uthwatt Committee says, in Paragraph 147:
  "We recommend, therefore, that once any interest in land has passed into public ownership it should be disposed of by way of lease only and not by way of sale, and that the authority should have the power to impose such covenants in the lease as planning requirements make desirable, breach of such covenants to be enforceable by re-entry."
  I have said that in order to cover the points that were raised in one form or another by a number of hon. Members.
  Now I should like to turn to some of the points which were raised in individual speeches, and to come, first of all, to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood). He welcomed the fact that the Financial Resolution would not come up for debate to-morrow, and I think that course has commended itself to the general good sense of the House. But I think the right hon. Gentleman can hardly have realised the implications of his admission that no Bill could be approved by the Labour Party unless it provided for nationalisation of land. If I misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman in any way I apologise, but my note of what he said says, "Judgment of the plan must be based on public ownership." However, if the right hon. Gentleman did not say that, I will pass on to those Members who undoubtedly did say it. I do not want to argue to-day whether universal public ownership is right or wrong. If hon. Members in any quarter believe in it, nobody is asking them to give up their beliefs and, equally, nobody is asking those who do not believe in it to give up their beliefs. But to demand that a Bill, produced by a Coalition Government, should involve nationalisation of the land is to demand that no Bill should be produced by the Coalition Government at all. Do not let any Member run away with the idea that there is any escape from that proposition.
  One hon. Member was foolish enough to refer to this Bill as a Conservative Measure. Indeed it is not. It may be that if the House proves incapable of accepting a Measure on which all Members of the Government are agreed, and wants to delay the matter until there is a party Measure, a party Measure there may eventually be and I think some may discover how little different such a Measure would be from a good deal which is in this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman said
  1692
  that the heart of this Bill is in the blitz problem. So it is, and we are not ashamed of that. First things first, in the opinion of the Government. Most important of the complaints which I wish to answer—because there is no foundation for it—was the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that the associations of local authorities, or the local authorities themselves—I am not clear which—had been treated with discourtesy by my right hon. Friend or by myself or by the Department. There is no foundation whatever for that complaint. It is true that my right hon. Friend and I, and our expert advisers, have frequently gone, not to the associations of local authorities, but to the local authorities of the blitzed areas themselves. My right hon. Friend has visited all the main blitzed cities in the country, and I have visited some of them and I do not believe there is anybody in the House who disapproves of that procedure.
  Mr. Silkin: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that these visits to blitzed areas are a satisfactory alternative to consultations with the local authorities on the Measure?
  Mr. Strauss: Certainly not, but they are desirable in conjunction with consultation. In 1931 the local authorities did not see any of the provisions of the Bill in draft. I am informed that when the right hon. Gentleman was at the Ministry of Health in 1931 there was no consultation whatever with the Associations on the draft Bill. They were consulted at an earlier stage. I will not say which procedure was the better but I think there has been no discourtesy whatever. If there is anything that the hon. Member believes to have been discourteous, that is the last thing that was intended and it is the first thing we shall seek to remedy.
  Mr. Silkin: I am not suggesting discourtesy. But does the hon. Gentleman suggest that there has been adequate consultation with local authorities?
  Mr. Strauss: It is very difficult to say. It is a matter of opinion. There are cases, I think, where it is desirable on some points to get the views of the House of Commons before negotiating with too many outside bodies. [Interruption.] I am only answering for my Department. The hon. Gentleman can say, if he likes, that I am wrong. I say it is a matter of opinion. I believe that on the whole

  1693
  the good sense of the House will say that we were wise on this very difficult and complex subject to get the views of the House of Commons. I hope I am a good House of Commons man, and I believe that success in this great endeavour to which we have set our hands, and in which all parties wish us to succeed, is more likely if we consult the House of Commons early and enjoy the collaboration of Members in every quarter.
  Mr. John Wilmot: The hon. Gentleman contradicted my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) but has now confirmed what my right hon. Friend said. There was not full consultation with local authorities, possibly for the reason the hon. Gentleman has given, but he will be aware that a very large number of important local authorities, as well as their associations, are complaining that they were not consulted in the final stages of the Bill.
  Mr. Stokes: Were the only consultations with local authorities these fleeting visits of the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friend?
  Mr. Strauss: I thought I had made it clear that that is not so. We had those consultations with individual local authorities and we had meetings with associations of local authorities. Whether or not those meetings were adequate is a matter on which opinion may legitimately differ. I do not believe that any lack of courtesy was practised and I assure the House that no lack of courtesy was intended. I also tell the House as a matter of fact that the local authorities associations were consulted on the Bill at least as much as, and rather more than, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield consulted them in 1931.
  I now come to my Noble Friend the Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke). He welcomed the fact, rightly in my opinion, that the Bill avoided a uniform procedure for quite different classes of cases, and generally he gave a welcome to the Bill. Since the point has been mentioned in various quarters, I think that the difficulty about the acquisition of open spaces has in fact been exaggerated, because open spaces can clearly be provided in the areas that are acquired under the Bill. But there may be, in our opinion, something in the technical point that, apart altogether
  1694
  from blitz and blight, there may be a lacuna in the powers to acquire an open space as such. If that proves to be the case, it can be dealt with by an appropriate Amendment to Clause 10, and such an Amendment will be considered.
  Mr. Stokes: Followed by a Vote of Confidence, no doubt.
  Mr. Strauss: I think we shall enjoy the confidence even without the hon. Member's assistance.
  Mr. Stokes: Is the hon. Gentleman unaware that whenever we carry an Amendment against the Government, the Prime Minister demands a Vote of Confidence, so that it cannot be done?
  Mr. Strauss: I should have thought that, if the Government were defeated, it was a matter of great importance to discover whether they do or do not enjoy the confidence of the House. But it does not happen very often. My Noble Friend also said, rightly, that of course a great deal depended, when we consider whether the Bill will produce the sort of Britain that we want, on how the local authorities in fact plan.
  Mr. Shinwell: As my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield has arrived, would the hon. Gentleman care to repeat his allegations?
  Mr. Strauss: I am afraid I am not responsible for the right hon. Gentleman's absence but we are good enough friends for him to take the trouble to read my speech to-morrow. If it is any comfort to the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shin-well), if I can get through in time, I shall be happy to repeat my remarks in the right hon. Gentleman's presence.
  I now come to the speech of the hon. Member for East Hull (Mr. Muff). He talked about the serious misgivings of local authorities. We hope to show that those serious misgivings are unfounded. He then talked about the risk of disillusionment of the gallant Forces who are fighting for this country. One of the ways to avoid the risk of disillusionment is to be sober in the promises that you make.
  Mr. Shinwell: Tell them the truth.
  Mr. Strauss: I agree, and I do not think that the hon. Gentleman, who has not visited my constituency lately, will

  1695
  find that I have ever held out any promise to my constituents, or in the House, in which I did not believe. The hon. Member for East Hull hoped that the Bill would get into Committee. That view coincides with the view of His Majesty's Government. We shall make no complaint of getting the Second Reading. But he made one statement of considerable inaccuracy. He remarked, rightly, that the provisions of the Bill were complicated, and he said we ought to take the Hull Development Bill as a model. I do not want to disappoint him or to make him unhappy by removing his illusion, but the Hull Development Bill did not contain any new procedure whatever for designating the area to be acquired or for expediting the acquisition. So, had we followed the procedure of that Bill, we should have been subjected to a far more formidable attack. We have given by general legislation something better than Hull asked for. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ilford made an analysis of the position with which I completely agree. I noted that he strongly supported the Measure. I noted also that he was President of the Non-County Boroughs Association who have added their names to the Motion for the rejection, if one can call it such. I do not wish to comment on the authorship of this document, but I rather think that fewer hands had anything to do with it than some Members imagine. My hon. Friend the Senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn), who made an amusing speech, criticised the provisions of Clause 45 and 46, which deal with compensation.
  Earl Winterton: I wonder why none of these hon. Members is present to listen to the reply. Why is the old rule broken, and people who make speeches go away without waiting for the reply?
  Mr. Strauss: I am certain there is a reason in this case. As regards Clauses 45 and 46, which deal with the price payable on the acquisition of land, I want to make it clear that it applies to the compulsory acquisition of all land for five years. These Clauses do not admit anywhere that there has been a fall in the value of the pound in relation to land. I also want to make it clear, on behalf of the Government, that the wish is that Clauses 45 and 46 shall achieve justice.
  1696
  Justice is desirable not only for its own sake but because, if there is not justice, planning will be prejudiced. Therefore, justice is the aim of these Clauses. I do not believe, as my right hon. Friend said in his speech, that absolute justice is attainable. I believe the problem is such that complete fairness in every case is probably more than the wisdom of this House can achieve, but justice is our object. Amendments designed to show how the provisions of the Bill can be improved will, of course, be properly considered and discussed, but I ought to warn the House that the subject is not an easy one. Hon. Members may have what appears to be a bright idea, but when it is put on paper they will find that it is not as simple as they thought. The hon. Member for North Islington (Dr. Guest) made a violent attack on the Bill and said he suspected that it had been drafted by a junta of property owners. That seems to me to be a serious attack on the Deputy Prime Minister and others of his party and I will leave that to be settled through the usual channels.
  Mr. Shinwell: My hon. Friend has now made a serious attack on the Coalition.
  Mr. Strauss: Oh, no. The hon. Member is far too intelligent to have thought that. He is not doing himself justice. The hon. Member for North Islington also said that no very good results would come from debating this Bill. Taking that view, he proceeded not to debate it. I now come to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Keeling). He raised an important point with regard to the gems of our architecture. My right hon. Friend and I could not sympathise more than we do with the point of view put by my hon. Friend. It would be a scandal if this country, with all the improvements in planning machinery, continued to tolerate the destruction of our architectural glories, which are as great as any in the world. I protested against their destruction as long ago as 1937, and I have done so fairly steadily ever since. As regards the computation of lists, we ask the planning authorities to compute such lists, and there is an immense amount of information in the Ancient Monuments Department—which is a slightly misleading name—of the Ministry of Works and in a body, on whose Council I serve, called the National Buildings Record which, at the moment, has an exhibition

  1697
  at the National Gallery. I am not certain how far the objects which my hon. Friend has in mind can be further strengthened by Amendments to this Measure, but if he will use his ingenuity to put down Amendments they will be carefully considered.
  Mr. John Wilmot: Will the hon. Gentleman consider altering the Financial Memorandum so that some financial provision can be made for this?
  Mr. Strauss: I do not want to be diverted from dealing with the points raised in the Debate. The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery said, quite wrongly, that my right hon. Friend had apologised for the Bill. The Government do not apologise for the Bill. They put it forward as a real contribution to our post-war reconstruction. They do not apologise for the Bill at all and they will welcome every genuine effort to improve it.
  Mr. MacLaren: I did not say it. The hon. Gentleman is looking at me as if I said it.
  Mr. Strauss: No. The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery said that the Bill was all wrong because it did not nationalise the land. I have already dealt with that point, but I noted with interest that the hon. and learned Member was returned unopposed to this House as a Liberal, and I did not know that it was part of the Liberal policy to nationalise the land. If the hon. and learned Member has changed his mind since he reached the House, he cannot expect all of us to do likewise.
  Mr. C. Davies: Surely it is part of the programme of the Liberal Party to nationalise rents, at any rate. In 1909–10 they tried to do their best to deal with the fundamental problem of the land.
  Mr. Strauss: I will not suggest what has happened to the Liberal Party since, except that its leader backs this Bill. The hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) used an argument which has already been dealt with. He talked about our soldiers fighting for the land. What an absurd confusion of terms. Of course, they are fighting for the country, but does any Member believe that our soldiers demand as a right, as a return for fighting for their country, that this House shall adopt a Measure which has been defeated
  1698
  by the electorate every time it has been submitted to them at a general election? I have not time to deal with the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pollok, except to reassure him that the position of the small man will not be overlooked. My hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom) raised a serious and important point about the shortage of good planners. One of the results of that shortage is the importance of my own Ministry organising a first-rate Department to advise the local authorities in order that we may have a worthy reconstruction.
  In conclusion, I want to say this. There is not a Member of the House who does not think that, if he had the handling of this Bill, he could draft something better. I hope, however, that the House will not throw away a Bill which, for the first time, does what planners have always wanted to have done, namely, to enable a reconstruction area to be acquired as a whole. Many Members have said that this Bill was piecemeal. Do not let them confuse planning and acquisition. Under the Act which we passed last year the whole of the land of this country is being planned. This Bill deals with acquisition. The whole land must be planned, but the right areas must be acquired and the areas which it is most necessary to acquire must be acquired first. I commend the Bill to the House.
  Ordered: "That the Debate be now adjourned."—[Captain McEwen.]
  Debate to be resumed To-morrow.

  RELEASES FROM FORCES (PROCEDURE)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain McEwen.]
  Wing-Commander James: As long ago as 25th May I gave notice that I was going to raise, on the Adjournment, this matter of the machinery of release of men from the Forces. It affects many Departments. Although I gave notice to the Minister of Labour, I am glad to see that my hon. and learned Friend the Financial Secretary to the War Office is here and will probably reply. Under the National Service Acts, the position of Members of this House was protected by the Man-

  1699
  Power Board and the Hardship Tribunals. I think it will be generally conceded that that machinery has worked extremely well. However, with the lapse of time, new circumstances have arisen, and, accordingly, hardship is inflicted upon individuals, and embarrassment is caused to hon. Members, while work is put upon Service Departments which could be avoided, if a simple piece of machinery and alteration were put into force. In my submission, there should be an impartial examination of claims for release, and Members should not have to press matters in respect of individual constituents.
  Broadly speaking, all Members have had experience of these difficulties. There are three different categories of case which I have in mind. The first is that in which release from the Forces would serve a public need. At present I have from my constituency two cases, not of young men but of men of a certain age, with professional qualifications. They joined up early in the war, but they are now urgently needed for the professional job which they left. In one case, other partners in the business have died. In another case, the sole partner has died. It is a confidential business, involving the intimate affairs of a number of businesses. It takes an appalling time to get anybody like that out of the Forces now. In the first of those cases we have been in communication with every Service Department and have been arguing for six months, and still the man is not back. If one more partner, an elderly man and unfit, should crack up under the immense strain of the work, goodness knows what would happen to a number of businesses which are dependent upon his help.
  The second category is the personal hardship case. Here, again, circumstances change rapidly. I will give a most pathetic and tragic case of a man, not young, who joined up immediately on the outbreak of war. He went overseas, leaving a wife and three small children. The wife then died, and there are no family relations. I do not know how long it will take to get this unfortunate man released, owing to the slow way in which the machine is working. I am in touch with the Service Department concerned. I had a letter from them about this case only this morning, in which the officer, the formation commander, says
  1700
  that he has now put in train the complicated machinery which has to be set in motion in order to collect the necessary data. The third type of case is where the calling-up papers arrive. Here, again, I have one case, which is strongly supported by the local authority, where call-up papers were served on a man who did not expect them, and had there been a little more warning this man would never have been called up. The Manpower Committee would certainly have supported this case. Once the notice is served the man has to go. He has gone now, and it will take months to get him back.
  I submit that it would be quite a simple way of saving a lot of misery to called-up people, a lot of embarrassment to hon. Members and an immense amount of trouble to the Service Departments if powers were given to one of the existing Committees to review appeals from men in the Services, so that an impartial examination of the facts may be made, and so that commanding officers do not themselves have to try to collect evidence. One of the existing authoritative Committees which have worked so well should be empowered to examine cases and make recommendations to the Services if a case is found to be genuine, either from the point of view of the needs of the individual or from the point of view of the community. To reduce the necessity of Members having to try to deal with this matter, and save the Service Departments from being bombarded by Questions in this House, there should be a regular liaison for tackling these difficulties. Liaison exists now, and works well, for filtering people into the Services. All it wants is a reverse gear. Surely it must be recognised that after nearly five years circumstances have changed in a great number of cases. Will my hon. and learned Friend regard this matter sympathetically, and will he not consult with the other Service Departments and the Ministry of Labour to see if what, on the face of it, appears to be quite a simple bit of administrative machinery cannot be devised and put into force soon to deal speedily with these cases?
  The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Arthur Henderson): The particular cases to which my hon. and gallant Friend has referred are not, of course,

  1701
  within my knowledge at this moment, and I am sure he would not expect me to be able to deal with the particular facts relevant to them. But as regards his final appeal, I think I shall be able to satisfy the House, and I hope my hon. and gallant Friend, in spite of the delays that may take place in particular cases, that by and large, and having regard to the very large number of cases with which the three Service Departments have to deal, week by week and month by month, there is very little cause for complaint in the vast majority of them. Perhaps I might be allowed to explain to the House the present procedure which is followed in applications for release, first in industrial cases, and secondly in compassionate cases. The employer approaches the Government Department which is interested in the man's work, and, if that Department is satisfied that there is a case for release, it makes application to the Ministry of Labour. The case is then considered in the light of the prevailing man-power policy, including the rules governing decisions fin deferment applications. The main consideration is whether the work for which the man's release is required is of vital national importance, and whether that work could be done if he were not released. In some cases the application can be dealt with centrally, at headquarters, without reference to the Ministry's local officers for a report. Where it is considered necessary, the regional officer is asked to obtain a report on the case by the district man-power board, and such reports are considered in the light of the circumstances.
  In a straightforward case, or on receipt of a report which shows that the release should be granted, the application is sent to the Service Department concerned, with a recommendation that it should be granted. The Service Departments take the actual decision, and the part of the Ministry of Labour is purely advisory. It may happen that a good case for a release fails because of purely Service requirements. For example, all Departments are extremely reluctant to release a man who is serving overseas, or who is earmarked for overseas service, and in all three Services there are certain categories of men who are too valuable to be spared. In the War Office, when it is considered that the Service aspect of the case should be considered, together with the industrial aspects, the case is
  1702
  considered by a small joint committee, formed of representatives of the Departments concerned. These committees, in the vast majority of cases, save a great deal of time and correspondence. In the case of the other two Service Departments, the applications for release, I am advised, are not sufficiently numerous to justify this committee procedure. At the same time, I would emphasise that industrial or national-importance release applications are, in fact, considered in the light of the new circumstances on which the application is based, and that, where there is insufficient information in the application to base a recommendation upon, the assistance of the district manpower board is invoked. The procedure described has been in operation, as my hon. and gallant Friend knows, for nearly four years, and, in our opinion, it has worked well. It is felt by the Government that it would be quite unnecessary to introduce any different procedure for these cases at this stage of the war.
  Wing-Commander James: Can my hon. and learned Friend give any idea of the average length of time that a release is expected to take?
  Mr. Henderson: I am dealing at the moment with industrial release cases: later on, I will deal with compassionate release cases. In the former class, where the matter may have to come before this joint committee in the case of the War Office, and having regard to the fact that local inquiries may have to be made by the representative of the local manpower board, it is very difficult to say that any given space of time elapses between the application being made and a decision being given. But, if I may draw on my own personal experience, because, as my hon. and gallant Friend knows, a large number of these cases pass through my hands at the War Office, I would say that a normal case takes on an average about four weeks. Disregarding special cases, such as coal-miners, release on industrial grounds is sanctioned in about 60 per cent. of the cases, and it may interest the House to knew that, during the period March to June inclusive, the War Office has granted 5,214 industrial releases.
  So much for industrial releases. Let me now deal for a moment with compassionate release from the Forces. Com-

  1703
  passionate release from the Forces is a matter within the discretion of the Admiralty, the Army Council or the Air Council, and any consideration that Hardship Committees may give to the personal circumstances of a serving sailor, soldier or airman could obviously result only in a recommendation to the Service authorities. All three Services have machinery by which a man's commanding officer can grant up to 28 days' leave on compassionate grounds in cases of emergency, and I think that in most cases there is very little time that need be lost. If a commanding officer considers that leave alone will not be sufficient, he can put forward a recommendation for a period of release. There is a well-established procedure for carrying out investigations through the police, welfare officers or the Soldiers', Sailors' and Airmen's Families' Association, and changes of circumstances since an individual was called up are fully taken into account. The period of release can be up to three months, with further extension in exceptional cases.
  I am not in a position to say what is the time that may be taken in the case of applications to the Admiralty or Air Ministry, but I will be prepared to say that the time they take is no longer than the time taken by the War Office, which, in these cases, is sometimes two days, three days or a week, and, in the vast majority of cases, well within the month to which I referred as perhaps the average period of time in cases of industrial release. The War Office could not accept any position, nor, I think, could it be accepted by the other two Service Departments, in which an outside body, such as a Man-power Board or a Hardship Committee, should have the final decision, either in industrial or compassionate release cases. It is obvious that release must ultimately depend upon the military. situation and on operational grounds.
  There is also a practical difficulty so far as the Ministry of Labour is concerned, because the personnel of military Hardship Committees will largely be required for the work of Re-instatement Committees, and I am informed by the Ministry of Labour that it would not be possible, certainly without more mature consideration on their part, to promise them for the purpose suggested. The Service Departments feel that such cases,
  1704
  if considered by the Hardship Committees, would not be dealt with any more speedily than under the present machinery. The Hardship Committees do not necessarily sit every day or all day, whereas a compassionate case, in which there is real urgency, can be, and is, dealt with by the Service Department concerned at almost any hour of the day or night. Each case is handled by an expert and an experienced staff, and when there is an exceptional degree of urgency it is met by the granting of compassionate leave or deferment from draft pending a decision as to temporary release. Again, I only have the figures as regards the War Office, but I am advised that during the four months from March to June, 21,000 compassionate leave cases were dealt with and compassionate leave was granted.
  It may be asked whether any general guidance can be given as to the type of case in which compassionate leave can be approved. The answer, broadly, is, that a period of release can be granted, provided that the man is serving in this country, and is not in a unit from which release is barred for operational reasons, in cases where it can be substantiated that there is severe domestic hardship for which the only possible solution is the temporary presence of the soldier at home. The essential in considering compassionate applications is that each case must be treated on its merits and it is not possible to lay down hard and fast rules on what should or should not be regarded as grounds for release. But the following are types of cases in which releases may be granted: (1) where the soldier's wife is seriously ill and there are no other persons available to look after her; this type of case is, of course, particularly strong if there are also young children; (2) where the soldier's parents are very old, or in such bad health that they need attention, and there is no other person available who could make arrangements for their care except the soldier; (3) where the soldier is an orphan with young brothers and sisters, and there is no other person who could make arrangements to look afer them. Those are examples of cases in which, subject to the exigencies of the Service—which must be the over-ruling consideration in all these cases—it is likely that application for compassionate leave would be, and is, very sympathetically considered to-day.
  Wing-Commander James: For discharge as well as for leave?
  Mr. Henderson: I do not think that it will be possible to grant discharge from the Army in such cases. This is not done by the War Office, though I am not sure what would be the practice in other Service Departments. In my own experience, the way in which we handle an extreme compassionate case, is to relegate the soldier to what is called the Class "W" Reserve for, say, six months, and then, if the circumstances persist at the end of six months, we sympathetically consider the granting of a further six months, but we do not actually discharge on compassionate grounds. The particular type of case in which compassionate release is granted, is where there is a business owned by the soldier in which he has a direct financial interest, and which is in jeopardy as a result of his absence in the Army and there is no one else to conduct it. In these circumstances, the soldier may be released temporarily from what is called the Class "W" Reserve for a short period of, say, two months in order to make arrangements for the management by someone else durign his absence on military service. In none of these cases can release be granted, nor a fortiori can discharge be granted, but only a strictly limited period to give the soldier an opportunity of making what arrangements he can.
  I have endeavoured to explain to the House the machinery which has been operating during the past four years for dealing with applications not only for industrial release but also for compassionate release. I have given figures which show the large numbers of successful applications that have been made to the War Office, and I am quite satisfied that, as regards the other Service Departments, proportionate to the numbers of men serving in those Services, the record of both will be found to be equally good. I have endeavoured to show that, whereas it is true in the case of applications for industrial release, so much time may be taken that it is impossible to arrive at the final decision until the lapse of anything up to four weeks whereas, in the case of compassionate applications, much less time is taken; we believe that this machinery has been working and is working satisfactorily and that there is nothing to be gained by changing it at this late stage of the war.
  Mr. Tinker: The hon. and learned Member mentioned 6o per cent. of industrial releases. Could he tell me what proportion of that represents the miners? For my own part I appreciate the general answer, and want to thank the hon. and learned Gentleman for it because it has cleared up many knotty points as to procedure. I feel sure that the statement will be much appreciated when it goes out to the public, because very few Members of Parliament thoroughly understand the position. The explanation given to-day has certainly satisfied me as to procedure and will be of help in the future.
  Mr. Henderson: I understood my hon. Friend to ask what proportion of the 60 per cent. of industrial releases was in respect of miners. I cannot say that but, of course, I gave in Committee on Estimates in April the round figures of releases in relation to miners. I said that 10,000 men were released from the Army, of whom about 1,000 have since rejoined the Army. That was under the first scheme, and, under the present scheme which started in October, 193, which I described in my speech and which is operating to-day, releases have either been authorised or carried out in some further 5,000 cases.
  Wing-Commander James: I agree that the hon. and learned Gentleman's explanation is a very gratifying one, but my experience has been that the operation of the machinery is nothing like as smooth as his Departmental chief naturally claims. Would 'he consider the issue of a simple circular to commanding officers making plain to them exactly what is their position? I have actually had a case recently of a commanding officer telling a constituent of mine that the only way for him to get out was to write to his Member of Parliament. That puts something on Members which is not intended. Could the hon. and learned Gentleman consider, with the other Departments concerned, making plain in a simple circular to commanders where they stand? There is one other thing. He said there was no such thing as total discharge when it comes to a question of professional men. For example, accountants and solicitors who are partners in key businesses, perhaps for a whole district, may hear that their elderly partners have died. It is not in the man's interest

  1707
  alone but the interest of the whole business community, that he should be discharged, from the Army. Surely there must be some procedure for all three Services whereby total discharge could be given in such cases?
  Colonel Clarke: May I ask one simple question? Does what has just been said apply equally to men abroad and to men at home?
  Mr. Henderson: As regards both industrial and compassionate release cases, the situation of men who are abroad is much more difficult because exigencies of the Service may obtrude themselves much more than they do at home. But, as regards the principle, subject to the approval of the local Commander-in-Chief, it is possible—and has been done
  1708
  in a number of cases within my own knowledge—to bring back men from abroad on the ground both of industrial release and compassionate release. As regards the other point, without in any way giving any commitment, I am quite sure that the suggestion made by my hon. and gallant Friend will be examined. But I really do not think it is necessary to do what he suggests so far as compassionate release cases are concerned, because every commanding officer should be well aware of the fact that he has power to give compassionate leave up to 28 days. If he does not, then he certainly does not know the extent of his powers as he should do.
  Mr. Tinker: Send him a copy of HANSARD.
  Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.

  OPEN CAST COAL SITES (RESTORATION)
  OPEN CAST COAL SITES (RESTORATION)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Exports
  Exports
  Safeguarding of Industries
  Safeguarding of Industries
  Bulbs (Prices)
  Bulbs (Prices)
  UNBALANCED AREAS (NEW INDUSTRIES)
  UNBALANCED AREAS (NEW INDUSTRIES)
  FACTORIES (OUT-WORKERS)
  FACTORIES (OUT-WORKERS)
  COLONIAL EMPIRE (CIVIL SERVANTS' ALLOWANCES)
  COLONIAL EMPIRE (CIVIL SERVANTS' ALLOWANCES)
  OLD AGE PENSIONS
  OLD AGE PENSIONS
  CAMEROONS (DEVELOPMENT PLANS)
  CAMEROONS (DEVELOPMENT PLANS)
BRITISH ARMY
  Hospital Patients (Pay)
  Hospital Patients (Pay)
  Northern Ireland Soldiers (Home Leave)
  Northern Ireland Soldiers (Home Leave)
  Youths (Training)
  Youths (Training)
  Soldier (Desertion Charge)
  Soldier (Desertion Charge)
  War Department Staffs, Palestine
  War Department Staffs, Palestine
  INDIA (WAR EXPENDITURE)
  INDIA (WAR EXPENDITURE)
PUBLIC HEALTH
  Smallpox
  Smallpox
  Goodenough Committee (Report)
  Goodenough Committee (Report)
  Non-pulmonary Tuberculosis
  Non-pulmonary Tuberculosis
  AIR RAID SHELTERS (CLEANLINESS)
  AIR RAID SHELTERS (CLEANLINESS)
  COALMINES (DIRECTED YOUTHS)
  COALMINES (DIRECTED YOUTHS)
  YUGOSLAVIA (BRITISH BROADCASTS)
  YUGOSLAVIA (BRITISH BROADCASTS)
  BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR (AIR MAIL)
  BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR (AIR MAIL)

Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers.

THE INVITATION TO CONGRESS.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, the House will recall that on March 14 a Resolution was passed on the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Addison, that this House desiring to promote a closer association between the British Parliament and the Congress of the United States of America, requests the Lord Chancellor on its behalf to invite the Congress of the United States to send a delegation of its members to visit Parliament at as early a date as may be convenient. Mr. Speaker was moved to make a similar communication from the House of Commons. Mr. Speaker and I have now received from Mr. Rayburn, the Speaker of the House of Representatives of the United States, a reply to this invitation. Mr. Rayburn's letter expresses deep appreciation of the invitation and indicates that, at the first moment that is convenient, the invitation will be taken up and given friendly consideration. The letter emphasizes the wish that we should know that it is the desire of America to work hand in hand with our own democracy for the peace and wellbeing of us all.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (WORKINGTON) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (NORTH LINDSEY WATER BOARD) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (WARRINGTON) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
NORTH-WEST MIDLANDS JOINT ELECTRICITY AUTHORITY PRO VISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
FOOD AND DRUGS (MILK AND DAIRIES) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and to be printed.

EDUCATION BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 2 [Transfer of property and functions to Minister and construction of Acts and documents]:
THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC WARFARE (THE EARL OF SELBORNE): The Amendment to this clause is merely a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 14, at end insert ("except where the context otherwise requires").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4:
Central Advisory Councils.
4.—(1) There shall be two Central Advisory Councils for Education, one for England and the other for Wales and Monmouthshire, and it shall be the duty of those Councils to advise the Minister upon such matters connected with educational theory and practice as they think fit, and upon any questions referred to them by him.
(2) The members of each Council shall be appointed by the Minister, and the Minister shall appoint a member of each Council to be Chairman thereof and shall appoint an officer of the Ministry of Education to be secretary thereto.
LORD ROCHE LORD ROCHE moved, in subsection (2), after the first "Minister," to insert "but as to one-third of the members the Minister shall make the appointments after consultation alternately with the President of the Board of Trade and with

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the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries." The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move this Amendment. I understand from a communication I have received that the noble Earl in charge of the Bill does not find himself in a position to accept it. I therefore will speak very shortly upon it. I think it is so good and so thoroughly sound that it needs very few words to commend it to the House. On the Second Reading of the Bill I thought it right to express my sense of the importance of technical education, and those who spoke for the Minister expressed the same view, as indeed did everybody else. I take it that we are all concerned with what is the best method of securing technical education. I said then, and I say again, that without technical education we cannot live at all, and if we cannot live at all we cannot learn how to spend our lives, either in the sense spoken of by the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, or in the sense that many other speakers have indicated. The question is how best to get it. My noble friend Lord Barnby desired to insert words in the Bill stressing the advantage of technical education. Whether that be right or wrong, there is nothing about curriculum in the Bill and the objection was raised that it is no good picking out one thing and making an exception of it. My method is to secure means by which it shall in fact be effected by machinery.
I very well remember meeting the late Lord Moulton, after he had discharged himself of his function of securing an adequate supply of explosives during the last war. They were very short and at the battle of Neuve Chapelle there were not enough to go on with. I asked Lord Moulton how he found things, and he said that the first thing he found was that a contract had been made by a civil servant for millions of shells with a firm which could not supply thousands. I asked: "What did you do?" He replied: "I pointed out to him that we wanted shells and not penalty clauses," because this civil servant, in apologizing, had said, "There is a penalty clause." We wanted shells and not a penalty clause, even if the firm in question had been able to pay the penalty. Lord Moulton added: "I saw to it that he did not manage that department any more." That is the method I desire to advocate. I desire to
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give assistance to the Minister of Education with regard to technical education and agricultural education because I deem that assistance is required. It is not an attack upon the independence or competence of the Ministry, but the fact is that they do not know as much about it as some other people.
It was said by the noble Earl that the Minister of Education would rely on his Council. That Council, which is mentioned in Clause 4, is to advise him about matters connected with educational theory and practice. I take it that curriculum will be the most important thing to start with in educational theory and practice. I am not going to lecture your Lordships, even if I felt qualified to do so, upon the proper curriculum for technical education. I am not so foolish as to think that it consists only in teaching pupils the job they do in factories. It consists of a new mixture of what may be called cultural education with scientific and technical education and a due mixture of the practice of the art or craft with the theory and science of it. That is a highly technical matter and with great respect to the Minister, who has the greatest enthusiasm I am sure for technical education, he is not in a position probably to know those who are best qualified to deal with technical matters. Neither, I suggest, are the people in his Ministry. As I have said before, Advisory Committees are often a collection of people deemed to be sensible mainly because they agree to a large extent with those who appoint them. A difference of outlook is highly important and I suggest that that can best be got if the Minister would consent to consult with his colleagues in the Government, the Minister of Agriculture and the President of the Board of Trade.
My reasons for thinking that the Ministry of Education is not best qualified to deal with these matters is simply that while they are men of great ability, no doubt, and men of unflinching honesty, they are, taking them by and large, the product of the old universities. They are not the product of the modern universities and technical colleges, and you must get that mixture. No doubt it will be said the Minister would attend to that matter, but Ministers, even Ministers of Education, do not abide forever. What abides is the Ministry of civil servants

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and, speaking for myself, I am not satisfied that they do not need assistance in managing the arrangements for technical education. Despite all the lip service that is rendered now to technical education, people are very apt to return to their old ways. We have seen what happened about the financial provisions of this Bill. The sums provided under the advice of the Minister's Advisory Committee had to be multiplied fourteen times because they had not thoroughly appreciated what technical education meant and how it should be carried out. With regard to agricultural education, looking about the country in which I have always lived since I was a boy, I see the whole countryside strewn with the products of secondary schools which have been managed by the Board of Education. We talk now about not wanting black-coated workers. The countryside is strewn with the products of the secondary schools—little shopgirls and clerks who ought to be in something much more useful and much better. Only the other day I asked a young woman what her friend was going to do. She replied: "Something clerical, I suppose, because she has secured her school certificate." It is that sort of thing in the country that I am afraid of and I would like the Minister to accept the assistance of his colleagues the Minister of Agriculture and the President of the Board of Trade in consultation.
In response to a suggestion made to me by my noble friend Lord Addison and by Earl De La Warr, whom I do not see in the House at the moment, I altered the Amendment which I moved in the Committee stage, from an Amendment that the Minister should appoint two-thirds of a Council and that the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Agriculture should appoint the other part. It was suggested to me that all appointments should rest with the Minister of Education and that he should consult as to part of those appointments with the President of the Board of Trade and as to part of them with the Minister of Agriculture. It would simplify matters if we could specify the actual numbers of the appointments, but I have not the least notion what the size of the Council is going to be. If we could be informed as to the size of these Councils we should easily make an alteration. I do hope
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that your Lordships will support and carry this Amendment because I submit that it is a proper one.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 18, after the first ("Minister") insert ("but as to one-third of the members the Minister shall make the appointments after consultation alternately with the President of the Board of Trade and with the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries")—(Lord Roche).
LORD AMMON: My Lords, I wish briefly to support my noble friend who has moved this Amendment on the same grounds that I have put forward many times at the Education Committee of the L.C.C.—namely, that it is essential that the status of technical education should be raised. Hitherto it has been the idea that secondary education refers only to what I would call, colloquially, white-collared education, and that has rather tended to promote snobbishness. One has found, for instance, that in a family where there are two boys, one of whom has been to what is normally described as a secondary school while the other has been to a trade school, the boy who has attended the secondary school thinks he is superior to the other boy. If the war has taught us anything it has taught us something different to that. One feels that anything that would help to break down that rather absurd barrier and lift the dignity of technical training is well worth while. I found in visiting, during the early stages of the war, some of the places where young people were being trained in technical matters that these young men and the young women who had won secondary scholarships and had originally gone into ordinary avocations, shop-keeping, dressmaking and so on, were absolutely thrilled with their new work and they felt that they were now being much more usefully employed. As I read Lord Roche's Amendment it goes very much in the right direction, and I, therefore, have very much pleasure in supporting it.
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, whilst entirely agreeing with everything that has been said by Lord Roche and Lord Ammon I would like to support this Amendment from yet another point of view. If I were President of the Board of Education I would wish to have a very strong Council to support and guide me in regard to the general trend of education. The noble Earl, Lord Selborne, no

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doubt will say that of course the Minister of Education will consult these colleagues in regard to matters of technical education, and will take advice from those best qualified to give it with regard to trade training and training for agriculture. I do not doubt that he will so consult his colleagues, but it is essential that these Councils should be thought to be, and should in fact be, expert. I am quite certain that it will increase their standing if they are nominated through the Minister of Education by the President of the Board of Trade in one instance and the Minister of Agriculture in the other. It will strengthen the position of these Councils and the Councils will be looked up to by the country as a whole. I should have thought that from the Minister of Education's own outlook the provision contained in this Amendment would appear a very wise one. Surely it is only right to put into the Bill that some of these representatives shall be nominated through those in the Government best qualified to nominate them. I think that this Amendment is well worth accepting from the Government's point of view and, as I said before, I wholly agree with the arguments put forward by the two previous speakers.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, I understand that the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, has indicated his intention to resist this Amendment. I ask eave of the House to occupy a few minutes in emphasizing some of the reasons why I submit that the Amendment should be supported. May I remind the House—if it needs reminding—that on the Committee stage of the Bill I supported the plea for technical education? Lord Roche was good enough to refer to that just now. I desire most warmly to support his plea, and I would point out that whatever the House may aspire to provide in the way of education under the Bill must be paid for from funds which can only be derived from trade prosperity. The House displayed some impatience with me when I spoke on technical education on the last occasion, but surely it is only commonsense to say that whatever is spent on education must be won through our trade success. The plea has been made that there is a danger that the arrangements now envisaged will not be sufficient to provide for the flow of teachers, scientists and research workers who will be needed.
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Many members in this House, and a very wide circle outside, are passionately interested in this question, which I suggest should take precedence over other considerations of minor importance.
I have indicated the lines on which I previously presumed to take up the time of the House, and my object now is to be brief. Lord Roche has elucidated the reasons which underlie his Amendment with an ability which I cannot hope to approach, but I ask the House's indulgence while I draw your attention to an Amendment which was proposed to be raised in another place but was ruled out of order, on Clause 30, on the ground that the matter should have been dealt with at an earlier stage. It was put forward by Sir Harold Webbe, a past member of the Ministry of Education, who knows intimately the circumstances to which Lord Roche has drawn attention to-day. I quote:
"In execution of the duties imposed upon him under this Act the Minister shall in particular make such arrangements as he considers expedient for securing that there shall be sufficient facilities for the training of an adequate number of technologists to meet the needs of all branches of industry and commerce."
I submit that that was not an unreasonable plea for an assurance from the Minister to an industrial nation like ourselves, whose welfare is dependent upon the prosperity of its industry. It is in that sense that I wish to support the plea which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Roche, has put forward for providing what he thinks will be the best means of securing that end.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, I desire to support the Amendment, not with any special reference to technical education, but from the general consideration of the weaknesses of human nature. If you have an Advisory Council their business is to give independent and sound advice. If their appointment is left to the Minister without any check upon him he will always be tempted to select those who are likely to give him the advice he wants. Therefore I suggest that there shall be an entirely independent appointment.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, you will have seen by glancing

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at the Order Paper that I have tabled a large number of Amendments, many of which are designed to meet the views of your Lordships expressed during the Committee stage. I mention that fact merely to bring out what no doubt is already recognized, that my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Education, with whom I have had the advantage of conferring during the interval, has been most anxious to meet the points stressed by your Lordships in the Committee stage, and has given them very careful consideration with his advisers. Therefore, it is in no unsympathetic spirit that I have to point out the reasons why the Government are unable to accept this particular Amendment. I confess that I am a little discouraged by the fact that I appear to have failed completely during the Committee stage to convince Lord Roche and other noble Lords that there is nobody in England who is keener on the subject of technical education than the President of the Board of Education. Technical education is a major feature of his whole educational scheme. It is he who has introduced the modern schools into our educational system, and he has proposed this Advisory Council for the express purpose of giving him that assistance which, as your Lordships have pointed out, he will certainly require.
Why, then, do the Government feel it would be unwise to put these words into the Bill? In the first place, there is a technical objection. I am told that it is contrary to constitutional practice to require in an Act of Parliament that one Minister should consult another. That has never been done, because the theory of the Constitution is that the Crown is one and indivisible and all Ministers are advisers of His Majesty. Of course, we all know that Ministers habitually consult one another, and the Cabinet exists for that purpose.
LORD ROCHE: My noble friend said last time that this had been done in the Agricultural Marketing Bill. It may be in deference to this constitutional theory that the words used there are that the two Ministers should act "in conjunction". I have no objection to using the words "in conjunction" if that would overcome the constitutional difficulty.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: That is the technical point. The point of substance is that if you require the Minister to consult particular authorities you tie his hand. For instance, why should the Board of Trade and the Minister of Agriculture be mentioned, and not the Home Secretary? Of course the President of the Board of Education will consult the Minister of Agriculture and the President of the Board of Trade; he will also consult the Home Secretary, because it would be desirable that there should be gentlemen on his Council who have experience of matters with which the Home Secretary has to deal. I also think it would be a mistake to tie the President to official channels. Let there be no mistake about this, the President and every Minister of Education will have to have upon his Council men who have technical standing and technical knowledge, and also agriculturists. But is it wise to say that they must necessarily be obtained through official channels?
My noble and learned friend showed so much distrust of the Civil Service in his speech that I am rather surprised that he should have framed his Amendment in such a form as would make Parliament say that the Minister of Education must ask for the nominee of the Board of Trade or the Minister of Agriculture in regard to technical experts and agriculturists. I do not think that that would necessarily be the right course. As I have said, he would of course consult his colleagues, but he ought to be free to go outside and to nominate on his Council an agriculturist, let us say, who was not persona grata at the Ministry of Agriculture if he thought he would be a valuable person on his Council. Therefore the short answer to noble Lords is that the President and the Board of Education are intensely anxious to get the best technical, agricultural and other outside advice in the administration of this Act. It is for that purpose that these Advisory Councils are being set up, and I do ask noble Lords to allow the Minister to have a free hand in the choice of his advisers. He must know—every Minister knows—that the whole success of his work depends on getting the right advice, and that advice must be sought not only in one or two directions, but in a large number of directions, and it will be for the Minister of the day to have a properly balanced Council, so that the best men from every angle from which

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he requires advice may be available and may work as a team to help him. Therefore I hope my noble and learned friend will not press this Amendment.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I am sure nobody must be more conscious than the noble Earl that his resistance to this Amendment is based on grounds that are rather thin. Everybody recognizes, when a Minister has to appoint a Council of this kind, that he will go out of his way to consult all kinds of people and institutions; and there is nothing in the noble and learned Lord' s Amendment to prevent that. The Minister would without a doubt be completely free to consult anybody he likes and no doubt he would consult a considerable number of people. At the same time none of us has any doubt as to the intention and outlook of the present Minister of Education. I am sure we should all have complete confidence if he were to be there for a long time, but owing to the accidents of political and Parliamentary life the Minister may be changed. This Amendment is to indicate the intention of Parliament as to the type of person to be consulted who would be more cognizant with the sort of problems the noble and learned Lord indicated. I think myself that it is a matter of first-rate importance that these people should be represented on the Council.
It is no affront to the Civil Service. I am sure that none of us is second to the noble Earl in his admiration of civil servants, but they happen to be, quite necessarily, influenced by their own training and outlook—the men at the Board of Education, Eke all the rest of us. We are all, instinctively and inevitably, influenced by our own training and outlook, and we cannot help it. It is a fact, and I hope it will never cease to be a fact, that the men on the permanent staffs of the different Ministries are men with specialized outlooks. This Amendment is to secure that the outlook of people associated with other departments of activity, which are particularly important in matters of education in the modern sense, shall be brought into consultation. Clearly the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Agriculture are the appropriate Ministers. There is no difficulty about consulting with your Parliamentary colleagues, I quite agree, and I remember a discussion we had when the Agricultural
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Marketing Act was going through. I do not remember what the words then adopted were.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: "In conjunction with."
LORD ADDISON: I dare say it is quite likely that the noble Earl opposite, who led the nominal opposition on that occasion, was responsible for pressing me to put them in. If so, he served a useful public purpose, as he has done many times. But I do remember that there was provision for consultation in some form with the Minister of Health. I cannot see any reason why this kind of provision should not be inserted in the Bill—I do not say in the precise form of words the noble and learned Lord has suggested. That is not the point. The wording could be altered on the Third Reading if necessary, but there should be provision in the Bill for this consultation with the Ministers representing these two Departments. I hope that the noble Earl will reconsider the matter. There is no reason at all why this should not be done.
LORD SOULBURY: My Lords, I do not wish to strike a dissentient note, but in this case I think my noble friend Lord Selborne is right in resisting this Amendment. It is common practice for Amendments of this kind to be moved in another place, and as far as I can recollect the Government have nearly always resisted them, and rightly so. If the President of the Board of Education is not really competent to appoint a Central Advisory Council without a provision of this sort, then he really ought not to be President of the Board of Education. If every Minister had the duty imposed upon him by Act of Parliament to consult with this or that person in appointing a Council of this kind, it would bring matters almost to a farce. I hope my noble friend will resist this Amendment because it is quite unnecessary. Of course the President of the Board will, in practice, consult his colleagues. If he has difficulty in finding suitable members of the council to deal with trade matters, he will get on to the Board of Trade and say "Whom do you advise?" On agricultural matters he will get in touch with the Ministry of Agriculture and say, "Can you please let me have the names of a few gentlemen suitable for this purpose?" To prescribe

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in an Act of Parliament, every time a council is to be appointed, that the Minister shall consult with this or that other Department is unnecessary.
LORD ROCHE: My Lords, the support that the noble Lord who has just sat down has given to the Minister confirms me in my view that it is very necessary to press this Amendment. The noble Lord has expressed the view of the Board of Education. It is not that I distrust the present Minister. I hold the view about him which Lord Addison so adequately expressed, but I may be permitted to add an expression of hope that he will not add to the chances and vicissitudes of political life, the chances and vicissitudes of climbing too many ladders! Neither have I
Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.
Clause 7:
Stages and purposes of statutory system of education.
7. The statutory system of public education shall be organized in three progressive stages to be known as primary education, secondary education, and further education; and it shall be the duty of the local education authority for every area, so far as their powers extend, to contribute towards the moral, mental, and physical development of the community by securing that efficient education throughout those stages shall be available to meet the needs of the population of their area.
THE EARL OE SELBORNE THE EARL OE SELBORNE moved to insert "spiritual" before "moral." The noble Earl said: My Lords, as the
distrust or dislike for the Civil Service. I have served in one capacity or another in too many Ministries for that; but I would like a due and adequate admixture of Ministries, and the Ministries that ought to be mixed with the Board of Education here are the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Agriculture. It is the sole, isolated, and too narrow view which I fear, and these general offers of consultation here, there, and everywhere leave me quite cold. I ask your Lordships to insist that the Ministry of Agriculture and the Board of Trade should be consulted.
On Question, Whether the said words shall be there inserted?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 21; Not-Contents, 20.

CONTENTS.

Brooke and Warwick, E.

Maugham, V.

Ammon, L.

Stanhope, E.

Sankey, V.

Barnby, L.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Bennett, V.

Birmingham, L. Bp.

Chatfield, L.

Elibank, V.

Chichester, L. Bp.

Rankeillour, L. [Teller.]

FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

Roche, L.

Hutchinson, V. (E. Donoughmore.)

Aberdare, L.

Southwood, L.

Addison, L. [Teller.]

Strabolgi, L.

Winster, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Simon, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Selborne, E.

Chesham, L.

Courtauld-Thomson, L.

Normanby, M.

Davidson, V.

Denman, L.

Samuel, V.

Mottistone, L.

Cavan, E.

Queenborough, L.

Lucan, E.

Boyle, L. (E. Cork and Orrery.)

Soulbury, L.

Munster, E. [Teller.]

Templemore, L. [Teller.]

Perth, E.

Cecil, L. (V. Cranborne.)

Teviot, L.

Willoughby de Broke, L.

noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, in whose name this Amendment appears on the Marshalled List, is not here to move it I would like to move it myself because it was one I had hoped to be able to accept. This is one of the Amendments that was debated during the Committee stage and one which the President of the Board and his advisers have considered very sympathetically. The Government feel they would be meeting the wishes of the House and the judgment of your Lordships if they inserted the word "spiritual" in line 32 of page 4. My noble friend Lord Rankeillour has an Amendment following, to insert the word "religious" instead of "moral." In the view of my right honourable friend the President the word "spiritual" is more appropriate to this clause. It is in effect a wider term.
It is the fact that there is no provision in the Bill for any religious education in young peoples' colleges,—county colleges—and, although my noble friend Lord Rankeillour had an Amendment to that effect on the Committee stage and has put down an Amendment to the same effect on this stage, it is the view of the President of the Board of Education that it would be inappropriate and a mistake to insert that Amendment in the Bill. The word "religious" would not cover the three stages of education sketched in Clause 7, but the Government do realize that in the view of your Lordships' House and, I have no doubt, in the view of a much wider public outside, it would be a mistake in Clause 7 of the Bill, which is really a declaratory clause to have no reference to the spiritual side of education. Therefore I have been asked on behalf of His Majesty's Government to accept the Amendment which stands in the name of my noble friend Lord Bledisloe.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 32, at end insert ("spiritual").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Earl in charge of the Bill for accepting this Amendment and only desire to explain that, the Amendment having been raised on Second Reading and again on the Committee stage, I understood it would not be acceptable to the Board of Education. I also did hear fall from the lips of the most reverend Primate on the Committee stage that he preferred the word "religious" to spiritual, and for that reason I was not prepared to move this Amendment, but was waiting for the following Amendment, in the name of Lord Rankeillour, to be moved. But in the circumstances I am perfectly prepared to accept this Amendment.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, I confess I should have preferred "religious" but "spiritual" is undoubtedly a great improvement, and I will not move my Amendment or make any further observations.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8:
Duty of local education authorities to secure provision of primary end secondary schools.
(2) In fulfilling their duties under this section, a local education authority shall, in particular, have regard—
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(a) to the need for securing that primary and secondary education are provided in separate schools;

(b) to the expediency of securing that, so far as is compatible with the need for providing efficient instruction and training and the avoidance of unreasonable expense to the authority, provision is made for enabling pupils to be educated in accordance with the wishes of their parents;

THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved to omit paragraph (b) from subsection (2). The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment is really consequential on an Amendment that comes later on, but I think I had better deal with the point now because that will make for lucidity. In the Committee stage my noble friend Lord Rankeillour pointed out that subsection 2 (b) of Clause 8 did not really cover the whole Bill and on examination I found that my noble friend was perfectly right. Therefore I have put down on behalf of the Government a new Amendment which will be found on page 7 of the Marshalled List of Amendments, to insert as a new clause:
"In the exercise and performance of all powers and duties conferred and imposed on them by this Act the Minister and local education authorities shall have regard to the general principle that so far as is compatible with the provision of efficient instruction and training and the avoidance of unreasonable public expenditure pupils are to be educated in accordance with the wishes of their parents."
As those words are so framed as to cover the whole of the Bill, subsection 2 (b) of Clause 8 is no longer necessary. That is the object of the Amendment that I now move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 19, leave out paragraph (b).—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER moved, in subsection (2), to insert after paragraph (b):
"(c) to the need for securing that the religious instruction given to all pupils, unless their parents otherwise request, is in accordance with the principles of the Christian faith."
The right reverend Prelate said: My Lords, on the Committee stage I moved an Amendment to insert the words "in accordance with the principles of the Christian faith" in Clause 26, and my Amendment was strongly supported by the most reverend Primate speaking on behalf of the Church of England and also of the Free Churches. In reply, the

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noble Earl said that nothing would be gained by the addition of these words, and he said that it was the intention of the Government that religious instruction should be Christian, but that he would re-examine the matter. He ended by saying that unless I could show a method by which what I desired could be achieved, without getting the Government into further difficulty, he hoped I would consent not to press the Amendment. I did not press the Amendment, but I pursued inquiries with the noble Earl's encouragement, and that is the reason why I bring forward this present more general Amendment at an earlier place in the Bill. If the Government accept the Amendment, of course it would not be necessary for me to move later Amendments to Clause 26.
This Amendment has certain advantages over the previous Amendment and I contend that it does not get the Government into further difficulties. Two objections to specific mention of the Christian faith were put forward by the noble Earl. The first is the need of provision for the Jews and the noble Earl acknowledged that in my former Amendment I did make such provision. I make that provision now in the words "unless their parents otherwise request." The other more difficult objection was the danger of litigation. The noble Earl said it would be very awkward if a particular syllabus were attacked in the courts on the ground that it was not in accordance with the principles of the Christian faith. In the Amendment which I now move I am calling attention to one of the duties of the local education authority and it is not connected with any question of an exact or particular syllabus. I suggest that reference to the Christian faith is very appropriate in this place giving a general direction, for in the earlier part of Clause 8 the duties of the local education authority are said to include providing full-time education suitable to the requirements of both junior and senior pupils and also providing opportunities for education "offering such variety of instruction and training as may be desirable in view of their different ages, abilities and aptitudes." Seeing that religious instruction takes a prominent place in the Bill, it seems very desirable to mention the need for securing religious instruction here in this clause.
I think that it is in perfect line with the general provision now going to be inserted in another clause in the Bill that pupils should be educated, as far as practicable, in accordance with the wishes of their parents. I attach, and many others attach, very great importance to the definition in this general terminology of the character of the religious instruction. It is quite true that the Government have declared their intention that the religious instruction shall be Christian, but the declaration of a Minister, unlike an Act of Parliament, has no binding force. Religious instruction is deemed by the Government and by Parliament to be important, so important that the Government for the first time make it compulsory. If it is to be compulsory, and I say nothing on that question of principle at this moment, the faith in which the religious instruction is to be given should be specified, otherwise it might be any faith and that faith need not be consistent with the Christian religion. This is a point of very great substance. We ought not be ashamed in a matter of educational reform of saying that we wish our children to be brought up as Christians, and in so important a matter it would be most unfortunate and misleading if the word "Christian" were not included in the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 24, at end insert the said new paragraph (c).—(The Lord Bishop of Chichester.)
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, this is a matter about which I have been deeply concerned. I only want to underline the fact mentioned by the right reverend Prelate that the Amendment I tabled earlier to another part of the Bill was put down at the urgent request of two bodies, the British Council of Churches, representing the Church of England and the Free Churches, and the Joint Conference of Anglicans and Free Churchmen, the leaders of which have so greatly contributed to the acceptance of the agreed syllabuses. That is the condition of affairs which has made possible the passage of this Bill by a great measure of agreement. By putting in this Amendment in a clause which says that a local authority shall have regard to so-and-so and not in one of the obligatory clauses, we escape the

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difficulty of reference to the courts. Therefore I trust that this Amendment will be sympathetically received.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, I need hardly say that nobody would be better pleased than I if it were wise to accept this Amendment. I recognize what the most reverend Primate has said, that a very wide body of public opinion, not by any means confined to any particular denomination, would be glad to see these words in the Bill, and I have no doubt my right honourable friend would also be glad if he thought it was a wise course and good legislation. Let us never forget that we are, in passing an Act of Parliament, fulfilling a technical operation. We must not be tempted to act as if we were bill posters advertising a particular cause which we wish to see promulgated. We must confine our efforts to producing that Act of Parliament which is best going to fulfil the wishes of Parliament and which is going to function most smoothly and lead to the least friction.
The right reverend Prelate has devoted particular attention to this point, which he has raised in other parts of the Bill and particularly in regard to what used to be the seventh Schedule and is now the Sixth Schedule. The Amendments I hope to move at a later stage do, I think the right reverend Prelate will agree, strengthen and improve the Sixth Schedule very much, and I am sure he and the most reverend Primate will agree with me when I say there can be no manner of doubt that all these agreed syllabuses will be Christian syllabuses, except those which are designed for the Jews. Nobody in any quarter of the House doubts that. Therefore, while the purpose of putting the word "Christian" in the Bill is, as I said on a previous occasion, to hoist the flag of St. George, an object with which I personally have every sympathy, we must ask whether that is good legislation.
The right reverend Prelate alluded to a declaration I made as Minister in charge of the Bill, that it was the object and purpose of the Government to provide that the religious education given under this Act should be Christian education. He said that was all very well as far as it went but it was not binding in the manner in which an Act of Parliament is binding. What does he mean by "binding"? He
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means something he can bring before the courts, and on which he can get a judicial decision enforcing the law. That is what he means by "binding."
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: I am sorry to interrupt but I mean nothing more than is applicable to every other sentence in the Bill.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Exactly. It is very important that every sentence in the Bill should be enforceable in the courts. It is precisely that issue that my right honourable friend wishes to avoid in connexion with the word "Christian." He does not think it would be profitable, in any event, that there should be debated in the secular courts, and decided in the secular courts, the question whether a particular syllabus was in conformity with the Christian religion or not. That difficulty might he created by the insertion of these words without there being any corresponding advantage. It is not as if the right reverend Prelate would gain anything by the insertion of these words. Nothing would be gained. The possibility of the Christian religion being taught would not be strengthened in any way, or perhaps I should say the chances of the Christian religion being taught would not be strengthened in any way. It is, as I have said, a mere flag, and a flag which could be dragged into the courts.
It is for that reason that the original Amendment put forward by the right reverend Prelate was not supported by the Government, and I am advised that the same difficulty applies to these words. They either mean something or they mean nothing. If they mean something then they can be argued in the courts. I mean that it could be argued that the local education authority in fulfilling their duty had not had regard to the provision that the religious instruction should be in accordance with the principles of the Christian faith. The petitioner in a suit might urge that the agreed syllabus violated the principles of the Christian faith, and that would at once bring the whole issue before the courts. Therefore, inasmuch as that the Amendment moved by the right reverend Prelate would not achieve anything towards the furtherance of Christian teaching under the Bill, and might conceivably have this unfortunate consequence, it would, in the judgment of my right honourable friend, be inadvisable to insert these words in the Bill.

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Therefore I hope that the right reverend Prelate will not press his Amendment.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: My Lords, I cannot help feeling that the noble Earl's reply is a very weak one, and inadequate to the realities of the situation. Of course, I should not have moved the insertion of the word "Christian" if it did not mean something. It does mean something. I cannot help wondering what it is of which the President of the Board of Education and the noble Earl are afraid. Is there something else which worries them? This business of passing a Bill is, of course, a technical operation, and nobody more than myself desires that the operation of working the Bill should be a smooth one. At this point let me say that I am grateful for the improvements made in the Sixth Schedule. I would like, however, to press my view on the insufficiency—from even the point of view of the courts, as I shall show in a moment—of the declaration made by the noble Earl. I am obliged to contrast his declaration with the declaration made by the President himself elsewhere. The noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, will not, I am sure, misunderstand me or doubt my great sympathy for the representatives of the Jewish faith whose wishes I desire to meet in every possible way. But this is a point where ambiguity should be avoided in everybody's interests, and even in the interests of possible litigation.
The President of the Board on the 10th of January made the following remarks in the course of an address to the Board of Deputies of British Jews. I am not complaining of anything he said about the Jewish religion, and I hope that I shall have the sympathy and belief of the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, when I say this. But what I am anxious to bring out is the great danger of ambiguity in a matter of this kind. This is what the President said:
"There is every reason why the Jewish representative should be called into the deliberations for framing a syllabus under the Bill. The fact that the syllabus will be worked out by a group of people belonging to various persuasions will mean that any marked bias peculiar to one denomination will be prevented: the syllabus should be genuinely interdenominational—a description which I much prefer to that of 'undenominational'. The Bill permits of different syllabuses being adopted for different schools or for different classes of pupils. There is no reason, therefore,
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to anticipate that syllabus instruction will be imparted which is unsuitable or insufficient whether one views the matter from the Jewish or Christian standpoint …"
I know that there are contemplated in this statement different syllabuses for different schools or for different classes of pupils. The point to which I would call attention is the looseness of the use of the word "denomination". The President goes on to say:
"Before all the denominations there lies therefore an enormous task"
In other words the President of the Board is speaking of the Jewish community as one denomination, and when he uses the word "denomination" in that sense I cannot help feeling that he is exposing himself to the danger of very uncomfortable litigation in the courts, seeing that under Clause 26 it is forbidden in county schools to give religious instruction which includes any catechism or formulary which is distinctive of any particular religious denomination. Now it is quite arguable that as the Jewish community is described as a denomination, the Christian community might be described as a denomination. There is an acknowledged ambiguity in the word "denomination". Does it refer to divisions of the Christian community or does it refer to different groups of religious people. While—and I think this is the real point—there is no governing direction to the effect that the general religious instruction should be of a Christian character, it does seem to me to open the door to litigation in the courts of a new kind, suggesting that the use of the Apostles' Creed, which is now lawful, implies the use of a formulary of the Christian denomination, and therefore that it should not be employed.
I should not have brought this matter up if the noble Earl had seen his way to give a favourable reply, because the ambiguity could then have been cleared away by the acceptance of my Amendment. I am bound to say that the reason which I have given does point to a very real danger, and I should regard it as questionable whether, without some reference to the word "Christian," it would be possible for the President to claim with real cogency that he gives effect to the first of the Archbishop's five points, which is that in all schools a Christian education should be given to all scholars except in so far as any parents may wish to

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withdraw their children from it. The President does claim to have met that point, but in my judgment it is not met at present. It would be met if a provision on the lines of or identical, with my Amendment were inserted. I should like to emphasize again that the words "in accordance with the principles of the Christian faith" are words which have been used for seventy years in schemes under the Endowed Schools Act, and have never led to litigation in the courts. I believe that the danger which the noble Earl indicates is an unreal one, and I hope very much that he will reconsider his opposition.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, with the leave of the House I will make one short comment on what the right reverend Prelate has said. I think that it is a mistake to put upon a speech which my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Education made at a prize-giving somewhere—
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: It was a very official speech, to the Board of Jewish Deputies.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I think that it would be a great mistake to try to put on that speech an interpretation which it will not bear and was never intended to bear. The very speech which the right reverend Prelate quoted was one in which the President pointed out that it would be possible to have two agreed syllabuses in a controlled school, obviously to deal with the case where there are Jewish pupils and Christian pupils in the same school. With regard to the right reverend Prelate's fear that the words used by the President of the Board of Education on that occasion would be held to be legally binding, I would remind him that the principle of Cowper-Temple teaching has been the law of the land for over seventy years, and any of the issues which he has raised might have been brought up during this period, but they never have been. I suggest, therefore, that the sensible thing is to let sleeping dogs lie. What undenominational teaching is, is a matter which is by now very well understood in this country.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I venture to ask the right reverend Prelate not to press this Amendment to a Division, because either
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he will be defeated, which would be very unfortunate, or he will be successful here and defeated in another place. Nothing worse could be said than that we pressed to a Division the question of inserting these words and failed to get them in. As it is, we have the assurance of the noble Earl as to the intention of the Government, and that can be quoted and will carry great weight, though not legally binding. On the other hand, if anyone could point to a hostile vote in Parliament on this question it might be exceedingly damaging. As there is grievous risk of the words, if once inserted, being removed again, I think it would be unwise to press the Amendment.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: My Lords, in deference to what the most reverend Primate has said, I shall not press this Amendment to a Division.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 9:
County schools, auxiliary schools, nursery schools, and special schools.
(2) Primary and secondary schools maintained by a local education authority, not being nursery schools or special schools, shall, if established by a local education authority or by a former authority, be known as county schools and, if established otherwise than by such an authority, be known as auxiliary schools:
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved, in subsection (2), to substitute "voluntary" for "auxiliary." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is an Amendment designed to meet the criticism of the noble Earl, Lord Stanhope, who said—I thought with a large measure of support from your Lordships—that he regarded the word "auxiliary" as unfortunate and as implying some derogation of the importance or status of the schools in question. That view, as I say, appeared to commend itself to a large number of your Lordships in Committee, but the alternative words which were then proposed did not seem, to the Government at any rate, to be any very great improvement. Therefore, having consulted my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Education on the subject, I should like to suggest that perhaps in the circumstances the best plan would be to go back to the old term "voluntary," which is well understood. Everybody knows what a "voluntary" school is,

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and throughout the Bill I suggest that we should use that term instead of the term "auxiliary" schools. If that meets with general acceptance, I shall move that the consequential Amendments be made. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 8, leave out ("auxiliary") and insert ("voluntary").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Earl who is in charge of the Bill for having met us in this respect, and I congratulate my noble friend Lord Rankeillour, who originally suggested the use of the word "voluntary."
LORD RANKEILLOUR: Thank you.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, I beg to move that the officers of the House be instructed to make the necessary consequential Amendments.
Moved, That the officers of the House be instructed to make the necessary consequential Amendments.—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Clause 15:
Classification of auxiliary schools as controlled schools, aided schools, or special agreement schools.
(3) The managers or governors of a controlled school shall not be responsible for any of the expenses of maintaining the school, but the following provisions shall have effect with respect to the maintenance of aided schools and special agreement schools:
(b) the managers or governors of the school shall not be responsible for repairs to the school playground or playing fields or to the interior of any buildings or for repairs necessary in consequence of the use of the premises, in pursuance of any direction or requirement of the authority, for purposes other than those of the school.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved, in paragraph (b) of subsection (3), after "buildings," to insert "forming part of the school premises." The noble Earl said: My Lords, I do not think that this Amendment was mentioned in Committee, but it now appears to be necessary to make it clear that the responsibilities of the local education authority in respect
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of repairs do not extend to the teacher's dwelling-house. The repair of the teacher's dwelling-house has always been the responsibility of the managers, who are able to charge the teacher an economic rent. In another part of the Bill the local education authority is made responsible for any kitchen which may be established for the purpose of providing meals for children, but otherwise their responsibilities only extend to the school building. The teacher's house is not part of the school building, and must be dealt with as any other form of property is. This Amendment is just to make that clear.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 31, at end insert ("forming part of the school premises").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 22:
Powers of local education authority as to use and care of premises of auxiliary schools.
22.—(1) The school premises of a controlled school shall be occupied and used in accordance with the directions of the local education authority, so, however, that the managers or governors of the school shall be entitled to determine the use to which the school premises or any part thereof shall be put on Saturdays except when required to be used on Saturdays for the purposes of the school or for any purpose connected with education or with the welfare of the young for which the local education authority desire to provide accommodation on the premises or on that part thereof, and the foundation managers shall be entitled to determine the use to which the school premises or any part thereof be put on Sundays.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE moved, in subsection (1), to leave out all words from the beginning down to and including "governors of the" and insert "The managers or governors of a controlled." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is the first of a series of Amendments designed to meet the point raised by the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Wakefield, and by the most reverend Primate during the Committee stage. It was pointed out by them that a good deal of friction might occur if the local education authority, which in country districts is the county council, have to be referred to every time the use of the village school was wanted for some non-educational purposes, some public meeting or flower show or what not. In order to meet the

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point the Government have drafted these Amendments, the effect of which will be that the governors or managers of a school will be able to decide the purposes for which the school is to be used, subject to any directions they may receive from the local education authority. I have got written out here how the clause would read if these Amendments were carried, and I could read it out if that would be of any assistance. But if noble Lords are satisfied with that description, I need not do so.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 37, leave out from the beginning to ("school") in line 40 and insert ("The managers or governors of a controlled").—(The Earl of Selborne.)
THE LORD BISHOP OF WAKEFIELD: My Lords, I should like to express my gratitude to the Government for incorporating the Amendment of the Bill in this form. I think it will achieve fully the purposes which we desire to attain.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 19, line 3, a after ("thereof") insert ("shall")
Page 19, line 3, at end insert ("but save as aforesaid the local education authority may give such directions as to the occupation and use of the school premises of a controlled School as they think fit")
Page 19, line 8, leave out ("require") and insert ("direct")
Page 19, line 13, leave out ("required") and insert ("directed")
Page 19, line 14, at end insert:
("(3) Subject to any directions given by a local education authority under the foregoing provisions of this section and to the requirements of any enactment other than this Act or the regulations made thereunder, the occupation and use of the school premises of any auxiliary school shall be under the control of the managers or governors thereof")—(The Earl of Selborne).
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 23 [Secular instruction in county schools and in auxiliary schools]:
LORD MOTTISTONE LORD MOTTISTONE moved to add to the clause:
"The secular instruction to be given to the pupils in every county school and in every auxiliary school shall comprise instruction as regards the duties of citizenship according to law, including the duty of defending their
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native land and assisting in the maintenance of law and order within the realm"
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I hope your Lordships will observe that the you is in a slightly different form from that in which I first moved it. The Amendment now contains the governing words "according to law", which I had stressed in my previous remarks on this subject, and that apparently was not understood, least of all by the noble Lord, Lord Addison, whose astonishing interruption in the previous debate I must be permitted to deal with. These words are added in order to clarify the issue and in order to make quite sure that this is the law of the land—a point to which I may venture to draw the attention of the most reverend Primate who, I think, until this moment had not realized that these things were part of the law of the land.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: I was fully aware of it, and rejoiced in the fact.
LORD MOTTISTONE: I thank his Grace for his words, but in a conversation I had with him I gathered that he was not aware of it. I may tell him, however, that a number of his flock, both Bishops and others, have expressed to me the greatest surprise that it was the duty of the citizen to defend the peace, even at the risk of his life. Very few people know it; his Grace is one of a small minority, as I shall presently show. This Amendment, as your Lordships see it on the Paper, was written by and was in the handwriting when handed in of an authority whom none will dispute, Lord Maugham, until recently the Lord Chancellor of this realm. I have reason to know from discussions I have had with other noble Lords—Lord Roche, Lord Sankey and others—that there is no dispute about this matter among those in legal circles and those who know the facts. And indeed the most notable contribution in clearing up this issue was made by the present Lord Chancellor himself, in a speech which I have quoted more than once. Therefore I think there can be no dispute that what I here suggest all children should be taught is the law of the land.
But before I come to the next question I shall touch upon, I must really ask the attention of the House to the astonishing statement made by Lord Addison on a previous occasion, when I had not the

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opportunity to reply. He said, speaking of the words that I then proposed to put in, which were the same as these, except that "according to law" was not in:
"I can understand that Hitler would have rejoiced in words like these—the very thing he has been doing for the last fifteen years with the children of Germany."
That is not only not the case, it is the contrary of the case. I have in my pocket a letter from a man well known to your Lordships, who calls it a "damnable lie." What is more, he adds that it has had a wide circulation throughout England and Scotland, and that it appears to be thought that I and my friends were proposing that we should teach our children what Hitler has been teaching his children for the last fifteen years. So I propose to tell your Lordships, and to prove it I am sure, that the exact contrary is the case, that what we are proposing is to teach the exact opposite of what Hitler has been teaching. We know what he has been teaching the German children because it has been announced constantly. Many members of the House have seen it being done. The children are being taught all the time these pages from Mein Kampf. I have here the latest unexpurgated copy, published by Hurst and Blackett but corrected up to 1939, which gives all the passages which are taught to the children in the German schools. Let us see what truth there is in "this damnable lie," as my friend calls it, but what I should call a misapprehension of the true facts of the case.
LORD LATHAM: What about terminological inexactitude?
LORD MOTTISTONE: That will do very well—a very good phrase. I always thought that that was another phrase for a "damnable lie." Thank you, sir, for "terminological inexactitude." I begin with what we propose to teach, and then I shall tell you what Hitler is teaching. The first thing, you will see, is the principles of English law—equality of sacrifice of all those living within the realm, if need be of their lives, in defence of the peace. That is an ancient law upon which the whole structure of our State is founded, though many people do not seem to know it. It is not that you can wait for a policeman. If you see some blackguard hitting a child it is not open to you to say, "I shall go and call the police."
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If you have the least prospect of success, you have to intervene even at the risk of your life. In the same way if two parachutists are seen endeavouring to smuggle my noble friend Lord Addison into an aeroplane—which may well happen—if the bystanders have the least possible chance of success it is their duty to go for them and save my noble friend. In spite of these unguarded words which my noble friend used, I do not think that Hitler would welcome him with open arms. He has said too many patriotic things to give him the chance of surviving when he got to Germany. So long as he can say "Help," and a man knows the law, help will come. That is what we teach, and that reverses what Hitler teaches.
Another very important thing is this. What we teach is that these rights and duties apply to all races, all people living in the realm, whether Jews, negroes, English, or Scots. What does Hitler teach in this book? Not just Aryans only, but men of his Party. They are the only people who have got to intervene on these occasions. I am going to leave these books with my noble friend (Lord Addison). The denunciation of the Jews is so frightful that I shall not quote it, but it is the fact that throughout the pages of this book—a chapter of which is read to every child in every school each day—the words used about the Jews are so frightful, so cruel, so unjust, that they must have an influence on them. They have had, and the horrible things that have been done, quite unknown to mankind before, if there is truth in what we hear, not only in the way of persecution but in inflicting the horrors of mutilation and murder upon the Jews, have only been made possible among the German people by dinning into them the words of this book. That is what has done it. We are not teaching them that.
What do we teach in this Amendment of mine? Respect for the Constitution and the law and for Parliament. What does Hitler teach? He denounces Parliament. I have a phrase here which I must quote. This is the kind of thing he says:
"In reality the Parliamentary institution never functioned except to the detriment of the country."
And here again, listen to this:
"What did Parliament do? Instead of crushing the head of the French Hydra once and for all with the mailed first, and granting

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Alsace-Loraine equal rights with other German States, Parliament did neither one nor the other."
That is what the German child is being taught—that what ought to have been done, what must be done now, is to crush the French Hydra. We are not teaching that. Finally, what does this teach all the time in every word of this book of the Constitution? I have chosen Dicey. The duty of defence against an aggressor. From the purely military point of view we knew that the best form of defence is attack. That is not in the Constitution. It is defence against an aggressor. What is there in Hitler's book? One long shout for Germany to be strong so that she can crush the Hydra-head of France and all those who dare to withstand the Aryan race.
I trust your Lordships will forgive me for speaking with some vehemence on this matter, but if it is true, as I believe it is, that this theory that some of us here are seeking to teach the children what Hitler has taught for the last fifteen years has a wide circulation, am I not entitled to ask that those who have spread his abroad should withdraw and apologize, as I frankly now ask my noble friend Lord Addison to do? I here give him—this is like a prize-giving!—this book which is the doctrine according to the English Constitution, which I trust he will read, and here is the doctrine according to Hitler. I make this offer to my noble friend because a complete withdrawal and apology are rather rare in Parliament, though they are good when they come. If he has any doubt as to the legal meaning of the words in the book, Dicey's Constitution, which I have given him, or in the interpretation of Mein Kampf—for interpretation is a matter of high legal authority—I refer him to the Lord Chancellor of the Government of which he was a member and who I understand belongs to his Party, Lord Sankey. I will abide by his decision, and if Lord Sankey says that the two things are not only not the same, but the exact contrary then I demand a complete and ample apology.
I pass from that to urge upon the noble Earl opposite to get us out of the dilemma as to whither this Amendment should be in the form of regulation or be a provision of the Bill. This Amendment which I propose includes within it all those suggestions made by Lord Chatfield, Lord Bledisloe, Lord Elibank, and others as
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to what should be taught by way of regulation. If every child understands that it is his duty to serve his country, to defend the peace in times of peace and of war, all these things follow quite easily. Some have said—it was said to me only this morning—"Let sleeping dogs lie. You will only stir up trouble if you put this in the Bill." That is how it was put to me. "All sorts of teachers, good worthy fellows with Pacifist leanings, will rebel against it." May I deal with that? I can claim to have some knowledge of what the teachers of this country think because for the last eighteen years I have been meeting them constantly in conferences all over the country. The foundation of the National Savings Movement is in the schools. The teachers began it and the enormous success of the movement is due in the first degree to the teachers. When I go round the country, as I do, addressing big and little meetings, I always meet the teachers and we talk about these things. I believe that if you say to the teachers, "This is the simple law of the citizen" —or if the noble Earl prefers it, I would leave out all the words after citizen in order to make it quite clear—"which proclaims the equality of sacrifice, which proclaims how wrong Hitler is, which proclaims that we English people have found a way of life in some ways different but in others like that of the Romans in the best times of their Republic, or it may be like the Swiss to-day," you will have their support.
Do not you see that it is vital that a child should know that he should intervene to help a poor little wretch being beaten to death? If he were asked to do that he would at once say "Yes." It may be said: "What we do not like is militarism. We do not want you bringing in your Cadet Corps all the time." But say to them: "This is the exact opposite, this just proclaims the irreducible minimum of duty of the citizen of an English State," and you will have their support. Questions as to what you shall teach boys afterwards have nothing to do with it. These are the elementary duties of the citizen and they are our glory and our pride. I guarantee that if I am addressing a hundred teachers I will get ninety-nine of them to agree with me.
Why not then grasp the nettle and put it in the Bill? Hitherto you have not, I know, put these mandatory things into

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Education Bills but here you have departed from that, I think most rightly and wisely. Not only have the wonderful skill of the Minister of Education and his zeal and integrity been evidenced in the wise and careful conduct of the Bill in this House, but we have managed to get it agreed that our duty to God should be taught in every school. Having once decided that, should we not as a natural corrollary also have proclaimed by teachers our duty to our country and the peace of the realm and have children taught what we all believe? We may well be proud that we have confided to the whole mass of the people, not to a class, not to a uniformed minority, but to the whole body of our people, the defence of the realm and the peace of the land. I beg the noble Earl to take a new view of this question and, having regard to what I have said and of the suggestion I make, to put it in the shortest possible form, perhaps that which Lord Maugham proposes. At any rate I strongly commend this Amendment to your Lordships and beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 6, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Mottistone.)
LORD KEYES: My Lords, I wish to support my noble friend's Amendment for the reasons which led me to support his original Amendment. I think it is important that every child in the country should be brought up to be ready to serve his country and, if need be, to fight for it. My noble friend Lord Mottistone has dealt with an interruption of the noble Lord, Lord Addison, much more correctly and good humouredly than I should have been able to do. But I want to refer to another speech the noble Lord made later in the day. I was much scolded by the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil, for mentioning the League of Nations' Union Peace Ballot and was told it was extraneous to the subject. I do not admit for a moment that to be the case because the League of Nations' Union was teaching the youth of the country all sorts of things contrary to the Amendment which my noble friend has moved.
At the time I thought that both the Oxford Union resolution and the League of Nations' Union Peace Ballot were harmless; it was the harm they did abroad to
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which I was referring. Since then I have had an opportunity of looking at the national declaration by the League of Nations' Union and the fifth question people were asked was this:
"Do you consider that if a nation insists on attacking another, the other nations should combine to compel it to stop by

(a) economic and non-military measures,

(b) if necessary, military measures?"

I have ascertained that four of the eleven millions did not vote for (b). That just shows how important it is that the children should be taught that it is part of their duty to the country to be ready to serve it in the Armed Forces or in other Services of the Crown. I say therefore this is not extraneous to what we are debating. It is very important.
I will now refer to what my noble friend Lord Addison said. I think we have crossed swords in another place on one or two occasions. He asked why we were so wretchedly fidgety about it. I am sure that "fidgety" does not express my feelings. I am coldly furious to think that the next generation may be asked to suffer like the last two generations. I am furious to think that my generation and my children's generation should be asked to suffer as they have done because the whole country has not been educated into quite a different spirit and quite a different outlook from that which is taught by the League of Nations' Union. I do not want to talk about personal matters, but in my own family, ten members of which are of my generation, ten brothers and brothers-in-law, five were killed in the last Great War. Already in this war eight of the next generation, sons and nephews, have been killed. A race of potential leaders is being wiped out, killed in its youth, too young to have become fathers.
Where is the next generation coming from before this struggle ends? I do not complain that men will not fight. The country is splendid. Look at what the miners in certain mining regiments have done? Their gallantry and valour in every field is second to none, but no one can be happy about what has happened in the mines, but if the men had been taught in their boyhood, from the outset of their youth, that they owed the duty of their services to the country we would not have had these inequalities of sacrifice. I feel so strongly about this that I hope my noble friend Lord Addison and his friends

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will realize that what they have been teaching and preaching between the wars, and which I have been trying to combat between those wars and Lord Roberts did before the last Great War, is wrong. It has resulted in the sacrifice of a great many young men because the country was not ready, because we had to hold the line inadequately supplied with weapons and munitions, and because it took a king time before the country could make the great effort which is now carrying us on to victory. For those reasons I support Lord Mottistone's Motion. When my noble friend Lord Selborne rejected the Amendment on behalf of the Board of Education he did it mainly on the ground of drafting difficulties. I cannot believe that those difficulties cannot be overcome, and I hope your Lordships will support Lord Mottistone.
THE EARL or SELBORNE: My Lords, may I intervene at this point to indicate the attitude of the Government? I personally would like to subscribe to every word the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, said in moving his Amendment. It is the intention of my right honourable friend, the President of the Board of Education, to take all necessary steps to secure that the children of this country are educated in the duties of citizenship, including the particular duty which my noble friend has in mind, but I am afraid when I spoke on this matter in the Committee stage I made a mistake which I should like to take this opportunity of correcting, not then having had the advantage of being able to consult my right honourable friend in the manner I might have been able to do in different circumstances. I then said that the President of the Board of Education would issue regulations enjoining that these principles should form part of the education of children, but the view of my right honourable friend is that a regulation would not be an appropriate instrument and that it should be done by a circular and also on his part by addresses to the teachers and to the local education authorities.
In the view of the President regulations are appropriate for defining the conditions under which monetary grants shall be paid and matters of that sort, but they are not appropriate for giving instructions in regard to the curriculum. The proper way to do that is by circular and also by general exhortation. Your Lordships
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must recognize that education in this country is, to a very large extent, in the hands of the local education authorities, which are bodies resting on popular support in the same way that Parliament does. I think my right honourable friend feels that we ought to be a little careful as to how far any instruction on any matter of doctrine, however universally accepted, should be, as it were, imposed by the President on the local education authorities. I mention that point because it would not be a candid picture of his policy if I did not do so. Subject to that, it is his intention to take every step to draw the attention of the local education authorities and of the teachers to the importance of making all children understand what are their civic duties in this respect. I entirely agree with what both noble Lords have said about that. I think it is very important in a democracy that these things should be clearly understood and that is certainly the view of the President of the Board of Education.
The objection to the Amendment is the one I gave before, that in this Bill we are erecting a piece of machinery. We are creating machinery and we are not dealing with curriculum. When we are legislating we must legislate well and in a workmanlike fashion. Nobody is more capable of advancing the principles he holds dear than my noble friend in the proper way and on proper occasions. He can speak here and on a thousand platforms in the country in favour of any cause that he holds dear and his words will always carry great weight. But to put a cause, however national, however sacred, however unchallengeable, into an Act of Parliament is just bad legislation. Therefore the Government are bound to oppose it. I hope your Lordships will not be carried away—it is very easy to be carried away—by the eloquence of my noble friend, but will look at the matter in a sane and sensible fashion, passing the Bill in a workmanlike form and refraining from decorating it with various flags to which we all owe allegiance.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, may I be permitted, in order to shorten discussion, to put a question to my noble friend? May I ask whether the machinery that he suggests will make it as certain that this particular doctrine will have the same authority and universal accept-

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ance as the doctrine dealt with in the clauses dealing with religious teaching? The local education authorities will have to see to it that there is corporate worship and religious teaching in the schools. Will the machinery be the same in this case?
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, you are well aware that for the past fifty years we have been trying to deal with the problem of providing for religious education in an Act of Parliament, and many a controversy and many a headache has it led to. We see the result of these fifty years' labours in this Bill. I cannot pretend that any circular issued by the Board of Education would have the same effect as an Act of Parliament, but in the teaching of patriotism and civic duties surely what is important is not what you can enforce by Act of Parliament but that you should carry the teaching profession, the local education authorities and the parents with you, and that they should all realize that this is a matter which should be explained to children and which children should appreciate.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, I must respond to the appeal of the noble Lord, but I am afraid not quite in that mood of repentance for which he was sanguine enough to hope. I would recall to your Lordships, and I would like to support very heartily, the plea of the noble Earl that we should legislate in a sensible and practical way. The Amendment to which I was speaking was in these words:
"The secular education to be given to the pupils in every county school and every secondary school shall include simple teaching as to the right and duty of every citizen to defend his native land."
In that Amendment the duty of the citizen was limited to defending his native land. In my speech the opening sentence was:
"I am sorry to introduce a jarring note. Let there be instruction in the duties of citizenship by all means."
Those were my words. The more that can be instilled into our children the better it will be, but it depends upon the interpretation we give to that kind of instruction. To-day it becomes your duty to your neighbour, but in my speech I pleaded that the duty of citizenship included duty to your neighbour.
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A friend of mine the other day spoke of the peril in which we stand by allowing ourselves to become slaves to science and perhaps our existence as a civilization to be endangered by the progress of science, to the neglect of other elementary and more vital things. He said to me: "What is the good of being able to get to London in half an hour by aeroplane if you do not tell the truth when you get there?" He was dealing there with a very elementary and important consideration. The point is, what do we mean by the duty of the citizen? There are a number of Amendments, with which I have myself the greatest possible sympathy, standing in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, about teaching the history of the British Commonwealth of Nations. But, of course, we here are not constructing a school syllabus. We are constructing an Education Act. We must expect the people who are in charge of education to educate, and to have a proper, growing and increasing apprehension of what they mean by education. You cannot put into the Bill this and that particular definition. I cannot imagine anyone teaching history, for instance, without teaching the history of the British Commonwealth. It is a great story, a story of sacrifice, of adventure and of fairness. It is a wonderful story, an immortal story, and it is a part of history. You do not take out particular parts of history, you expect history to be taught as a whole.
The same thing applies in respect of the duties of citizenship. I agree with the noble Lord sitting behind me to a certain extent. I deplore the events which he deplores. I do not think they can be accounted for by the reasons which he suggests, but I join with him in deploring them. But in this matter what is it that noble Lords are so apprehensive about? I think that never in history has there been given a more remarkable demonstration of national solidarity than we have been having in recent times. It is a wonderful demonstration, and it is due to the fact that people are fighting for something in which they believe. They believe in liberty, they are fighing for it, they are willing to die for it, and that is because they have the right motives in their souls, not because of something in a syllabus.
Now I come to the noble Lord's interpretation. I have spoken to him about

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this and I told him I wanted to know what he meant. The noble Lord has been kind enough to tell us something of what he does mean. He has quoted from previous utterances and I take the liberty of doing the same. This Amendment to which I have referred was designed principally to secure that there should be taught in schools the right and duty of the citizen to defend his native land. Hitler's interpretation is that the State is everything, that the individual must sacrifice his life and everything else—even truth, honesty and family—for the State. We all deplore that kind of thing, we hate it just as much as the noble Lord does and we are fighting it.
The noble Lord has said: "What I am proposing is to ensure that for the future teachers and taught alike shall have instilled into them the principles of the British Constitution." That certainly did not appear in the Amendment. He further said that it should be taught that "the defence of the realm and the keeping of the peace are the right and duty of each individual citizen." I am glad that the noble Lord has brought to us this copy of Dicey. I shall really have to make some inquiry about it though before I accept it from him. Some of your Lordships may remember that Mr. Gillie Potter, in a broadcast, described a hearth-rug at the hall at Hogsnorton, and mentioned that it had the letters "G.W.R." in the middle of it. I see that this book has got the word "Brooks's" upon it.
LORD MOTTISTONE: If the noble Lord will forgive me, I can give him a complete explanation. May I say in passing that in future he should pronounce that word "Brookses"? The facts are simply these. I went to the Library of the House of Lords, and I said to the Librarian: "Can I take Dicey's Law of the Constitution into the Chamber?" The Librarian said "I would rather you did not." Therefore as I was unable to get the book from our own Library I thought that the best thing to do was to go to a respectable club and ask permission to borrow a copy of the book from its library.
LORD ADDISON: There you are you see; that just shows you how important it is to get an interpretation from the noble Lord. I thought the noble Lord was giving me the book, and I believe the House thought so too. However we
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now know that he borrowed it from Brooks's. To go back to this question of mine about interpretation. The noble Lord in interpreting his Amendment went on to say that if the citizen sees a man in uniform beating a child to death it is his duty, if he has the least prospect of success, to go for the blackguard and stop him. When did mufti become a shield for a blackguard? You notice the noble Lord said: "If the citizen sees a man in uniform beating a child to death." What about it if he is not in uniform? My humble interpretation of the duties of citizenship is that whether the man were in uniform or not I would have a shot at him.
LORD MOTTISTONE: It should be in uniform or not, obviously.
LORD ADDISON: I am reading what the noble Lord said. I am entitled to take this as his understanding of what he means. You notice that he says that the citizen "if he has the least prospect of success" is to go for the blackguard and stop him. When we first stood up to Hitler we did not stop to estimate whether we should have any great prospect of success or not. We said: "We will fight him," and I think that any ordinary citizen who sees a man beating a child to death will go for him whether the man is in uniform or not, or whether he thinks that he is likely to succeed with his intervention or not. I suggest that my interpretations of the duties of citizenship are much better than those of the noble Lord. But, as I have said, all this shows how necessary it is to have proper interpretations. The noble Lord's speech to-day, I thought, bore extraordinarily little relation to his own Amendment; that again indicates how necessary it is to get something in the way of an interpretation.
I am apprehensive about putting words of this kind into an Act of Parliament. That is why I object to it. I do not of course object to any citizen doing his duty. The higher the ideals of citizenship are the better it is for us all. The British citizen has shown that he is willing to fight and to die for his country. No citizens anywhere have shown that spirit better, but you are not going to promote that spirit by putting into this Bill the sort of words which the noble Lord now recommends. An Act of Parliament is not the place for this sort of thing, and

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I am sure that the decision of the Government is the right one. I do not place myself second to the noble Lord or to anyone else in patriotism or in willingness to sacrifice myself for my native land, and that applies also to my noble friends. But that has nothing to do with our objection to an inappropriate Amendment being put into an Act of Parliament, and therefore these apeals to Dicey and to some hydra-headed creature of the French Revolution appear to me to have no connexion with this Amendment. That sort of argument leaves me completely cold. This is a bad Amendment, and I object to its being made.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: My Lords, I should like to say a few words on this topic. Everybody who has spoken with heat says that other things leave him cold. I hope to remain cold throughout, but it is my view that this Amendment is one of great importance and we have to make up our minds upon it. I do not think that it is a triviality at all. I am not for a moment suggesting that in this country people are not patriotic, and have not joined the Forces with alacrity, and are not fighting with the greatest courage and spirit; nevertheless, we are legislating now, I hope, for a very long period of years, and I do not think that it would be dangerous or improper—I shall give reasons for saying so—to insert in this Bill what my noble friend Lord Addison himself says is implicit in it—namely, that everybody should be instructed in the duties of citizenship.
The opinion of historians at the present time, so far as I have been able to understand it, is that the terrible state of affairs on the Continent is very largely due to the fact that the people there have not been instructed in the duties of citizenship and in their other duties to their country. In particular, those who have studied the history of France in recent years will say that no body of people in that country is so responsible for the unfortunate actions of France in the year 1940 as the teachers. I do not think that the danger here is nearly as great as it was in France, but this is a possible danger everywhere; and for my part I think it is in the highest degree important that something (not necessarily these words) should be put somewhere in this Bill (not necessarily in this particular
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place) to show that the duties of citizenship have to be taught in the secondary and county schools by the teachers. I have in mind a very able and remarkable book called Conversation with Lord Bryce by Mr. Gilbert Murray, which has just been published. The author there refers to the awful events which have taken place on the Continent as being largely due to the lack of effective instruction on matters of this kind.
The next thing I want to ask is this: Is anybody confident that this instruction is being given to children in the secondary schools of this country? Do the people concerned know that it is their duty to support law and order and, in certain conditions, to sacrifice their lives for their country? Have many of them ever heard that said? This is a matter on which it is difficult to be dogmatic, and I may be wrong, but my opinion is that a large proportion of the population have not the least notion that any of these duties apply to them. They think that for the protection of their country they can rely on the Army, the Navy and the Air Force, and with regard to other matters they can rely on the police, and they think that they have no duties whatever. If that is so, it is high time that they were taught the facts.
My noble friend Lord Addison has made some caustic observations and, as usual, with the greatest dexterity he has seized upon some matters here which he says lead to ambiguity. That is a false point altogether, because this Amendment has reference only to instruction in the duties of citizenship according to law. The Amendment does not profess to give a complete statement of the law on this subject, and the words which follow only state that there are certain duties with regard to national defence and the maintenance of law and order which fall on the citizen, without limiting the duties of the citizen to these things. It is a complete mistake to suppose that because my noble friend Lord Mottistone has referred to some specific duties he is attempting to define them all. This Amendment does not attempt to define them; all it says is that the instruction should be given "as regards the duties of citizenship according to law," and it mentions two of those duties. For my part I should be perfectly willing to accept what has already been admitted as something that

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should be taught, and to stop at the words "the duties of citizenship according to law," and then it will be left for those who are in charge of education to select those duties which ought to be taught to children. But that instruction should be given in the main facts I have no doubt at all; I think it is clear that it should be.
It is suggested that these words should not find a place in the Bill. That is a curious argument to put forward. In Clause 7 of the Bill we have the words "to contribute towards the moral, mental, and physical development of the community." I leave out "physical," because that is it a different category, but we have to teach spiritual, mental and moral duties; why, therefore, should we not teach the duties of citizenship in some form or another? What is the difference in principle between teaching a boy the ethical fact that he must not steal—which I suppose that he is taught—and teaching him that he has a positive duty to defend his country and to assist the police, subject to law? I myself am unable to sec the distinction between the moral duties of the citizen from this point of view and the duties of citizenship. It seems to me that they are closely allied, and I am unable to see why we should not insert some such provision as this in the Bill.
On the other hand, I do see at once that this is something apart from the ordinary syllabus which the local education authority will lay down. It is not like a proposition in Euclid, or a passage in Caesar's Commentaries, or whatever it is that they teach in the secondary schools. It is different from that. It is far more important, in my opinion, but it is different. If this provision is not made, I can quite imagine that there are cases where the local education authority will take the view, or may some years hence take the view, at a time of national strife that they do not agree that anything should be taught in schools which would assist the Government to get a satisfactory Air Force as a guard against some future dangers to this country. That would be dead wrong. That is the sort of darter that this Amendment might serve to prevent. I strongly urge your Lordships to regard this Amendment—and the same thing applies, if this one is rejected, to the Amendment to be moved by Lord Chatfield—as of great
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value, and I shall be extremely sorry if they are not accepted in some form or another.
LORD ROCHE: My Lords, with the greatest possible diffidence I am going to make a suggestion which may not be acceptable either to the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, or to the noble Earl, but I will try. Lord Mottistone quoted me as a legal authority. I am sorry he did so, but it is quite true that I told him that I thought his law was unexceptionable. He should add, however, than I told him also I was not quite sure about his policy, and that I thought he should accept the offer that I understood to be made to him to do this thing by regulation. But the position is now that that offer has been withdrawn. Where do we stand? My suggestion is this. A circular is a little nebulous, but this is the Report stage and we have got to do something soon.
If your Lordships will turn to Clause 4 you will follow my suggestion. Under that clause the Minister may consult his Council upon any question referred to them by him. The noble Earl says he accepts Lord Mottistone's doctrine in full, so does the President and undertakes to Lord Mottistone to refer to the Council not the question of what should be taught but how it should be taught. Is not that an ample assurance that attention will be given to what he desires, and does not the same thing apply to these other Amendments? Thus you would get rid of the difficulty which we are in. Leave all questions of how to deal with those matters to the Council, both in regard to military service and the British Empire. Ask them how it should be taught. The President undertakes to submit to them the fact that it should be taught and simply asks them how.
LORD KEYES: Would that instruction be in any way binding on the next President of the Board of Education? On the other hand, if the Amendment were inserted and it went into an Act of Parliament the Government would have to go to both Houses of Parliament to abrogate it.
LORD ROCHE: Of course the answer is No.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, I think I can assure Lord Roche that if it were the wish of this House the President of the Board of Education would

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certainly seek the advice of his Advisory Council as to how best this matter, together with other matters, should be handled. I can certainly give him that assurance.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, the matter stands thus, and I think we can bring it quite simply to an issue: if the President of the Board of Education, as we are told, accepts the principle laid down in this Amendment—clearly and lucidly expounded by Lord Maugham and more vigorously no doubt but less skilfully by myself—and if he says that he will see to it that such instruction shall be given in the same way as instruction is given in religious matters, then I accept Lord Roche's suggestion with the greatest pleasure. The only question is, is it "shall" or "may"? The matter has been brought to an issue now, for no less a newspaper than The Times, the respecable Times, referring in its Educational Supplement to the regulation which the noble Earl promised me should be issued, declared in effect, "We trust he will do no such thing, that he will issue no such regulation." We now know it is the wish of this House. Are we going to climb down before the leading article in The Times Educational Supplement, and is the Minister in charge of the Bill, who said "We will issue a regulation" when we come to the next stage, going to say, "Oh, sorry I spoke. No, we will issue a circular" which, I understand, like any other circular, will not be at all mandatory? Well then, we reject it. The issue is joined quite clearly. Are the children to be told that the rights of citizenship must be expounded to them in simple words or are you going to leave it to the local education authority? If you are to leave it to them, I am bound going to say I cannot accept such a falling away from a promise given in Parliament.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, with your Lordships' leave, perhaps I may answer that question. A circular from the Board of Education is, of course, a very familiar instrument. The noble Lord asks me whether it is binding, whether it is "shall" or "may." As I endeavoured to point out in my previous remarks, the education system of this country is to a very large extent decentralized, and rests in the hands of the local education authorities. What my
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right honourable friend has authorized me to say is that he will issue a circular drawing the attention of the local education authorities and the teachers to the importance of teaching the duties of citizenship, including this aspect of citizenship, and will urge them to give that teaching. That is not what my noble friend would call mandatory, but neither are the words, I suggest, that he wishes to put in this Bill. They would not be any more mandatory. What is necessary is to bring the local education authorities and the teachers along with us in this object, just as we do in regard to other matters in connexion with education. There is no cause to suspect either the teachers or the local education authorities of lack of appreciation of the importance of this matter, and therefore it would be inappropriate to suggest that anything beyond the normal procedure of the Board of Education is called for. I hope my noble friend will accept this assurance that I have given him.
LORD CHATFIELD: My Lords, may I interpose on a point of procedure? I have an Amendment on this very clause which is different from that moved by the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone. It is also an Amendment to insert a new subsection at the end of line 6 on page 20. What is my position if the Amendment of the noble Lord is agreed to by the Government? Am I then unable to move my Amendment at the same place?
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: If the Amendment of Lord Mottistone is carried, the Amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Chatfield, would not read; it would have to be redrafted.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, the view expressed by the noble Earl on behalf of the Government is the correct one, and I and my friends hope that the Government will not recede from the attitude my noble friend has indicated. Clearly a circular is the proper means by which the desire expressed in this Amendment should be brought to the notice of those responsible for the actual administration of education. I should however like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, and those who support him what is the mischief which this Amendment is designed to cure. Is it the case that in the past our people have been unwilling to maintain law, to keep the peace, to assist the police, or to behave themselves

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in a proper way in a civilized, organized, legal society, and therefore it is necessary to have this instruction put in the Bill? Is it the case that, for want of such a provision in earlier Education Statutes or in earlier regulations issued by former Presidents of the Board of Education, our men and women have shown themselves unwilling to defend this country? What is the mischief that this is intended to cure? What are the defects resident in our people which arise from an absence of such a provision in earlier Education Statutes?
I have no desire to import heat into this matter, but I must say I can quite understand men and women who have passed through our State schools regarding this Amendment and what has been said in its support, as well as what was said in support of the former Amendment moved by Lord Mottistone, as something of an affront to their patriotism. After all, the men and women who went through the State schools showed no lack of desire or willingness to defend their land in the first World War, and they have not shown any less willingness to defend their land in this war. I can see no grounds at all for altering the practice which has been in existence for a number of Tars. The noble Viscount, Lord Maugham, referred to the situation in Europe, and put it down mainly to the absence of recognition of the duties of citizenship in the various countries of Europe.
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: To a great extent.
LORD LATHAM: To a great extent. That may or may not be the case. We are not suffering from these defects in this country.
LORD CHATFIELD: Not at present.
LORD LATHAM: Is there any likelihood that we shall? After all, we faced the greatest crisis any nation in history faced in 1939 and 1940.
THE EARL OF CORK AND ORRERY: Quite unprepared.
LORD LATHAM: I am coming to the question of "quite unprepared" in a moment. It is not suggested that we are suffering from the defects of France. The defects which the teaching staff suffered in France were political rather than
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otherwise, into which it is not to-day appropriate to go. The noble Viscount said that it is the habit of the people of this country to rely on the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force. Who constitutes the Army, the Navy and the Air Force except the people of this country? Are they not entitled to rely upon themselves? They have done it hitherto with some success. The noble Lord, Lord Keyes, raised the question about this country being unprepared. It was unprepared. You cannot put that down to the business of teaching in the State schools. Oh, no! After all, it was not the products of the State schools who were the apostles of appeasement between the two wars. It was not they who were invited to Nuremberg to the Partei Tag celebrations and came back and assembled in country houses to discuss the virtues of Nazism. It was not they who approved the policy of Mussolini. So far as I know, no boy or girl issuing from a State school sent a telegram to General De Bono or approved the attack by Mussolini on Abyssinia, or found that Fascism was a desirable form of government because the trains ran more punctually in Italy. It was not the products of the State schools who adopted that point of view or adhered to that political philosophy. I shall not pursue my inquiries as to which schools the apostles of that policy emerged from.
LORD BARNBY: May I ask the noble Lord, without being controversial, from what schools those people came who fried to interfere with military tattoos, which aimed at instilling the very objects that Lord Mottistone is now recommending? The members of those city councils probably attended State schools.
LORD LATHAM: As regards being unprepared, after all it was not a Government composed of the products of the State schools who refused up to within a few months of the outbreak of war to establish a Ministry of Supply. It was not a Government composed of the products of the State schools whose Prime Minister had to admit that, because of political considerations in 1935, he hesitated to give this country the advice it ought to have had. I do suggest that, having regard to the unexampled efforts, courage, heroism, devotion, work, steadfastness that the people of this country

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—products of the State schools and other schools—have put forward, it is a little difficult at this time to justify the assumption that, in order that those who go to the State schools should in future be good citizens, it is necessary to embody an obligation of this kind in an Act of Parliament. That would be a grave reflection on the people of this country for which history finds and exhibits no justification whatever.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT CRANBORNE) (Lord Cecil): My Lords, I rise only to try to clarify the position a bit. I really think the discussion is getting a little wide. I do not want to go into what I consider the rather unnecessarily provocative remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Latham.
LORD LATHAM: The truth usually is.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: A good deal might be said about the attitude of all Parties before the war. None of us is entirely free from blame. I do not think that the speech which he has just delivered was inspired by that spirit of national unity which is characteristic of this country as a whole.
LORD LATHAM: Is this Amendment?
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: The noble Lord made a provocative speech and he will forgive me if I reply. What I did want to say in rising to speak to your Lordships is this. It seems to me there is some misapprehension among some of your Lordships both as to the position under this Amendment and as to the attitude of His Majesty's Government. I detected it, I think, even in the speech which such an authoritative and experienced noble Lord as the noble Viscount, Lord Maugham, made a few minutes ago. I got the impression from his speech—perhaps he did not intend it—that the question between us is "should the duties of citizenship be taught or not?" That was the impression his speech made upon me. That, in fact, is not the point at all. The Government have not found it necessary to oppose this Amendment because they think it undesirable or unnecessary. I think my noble friend Lord Selborne has already made it perfectly clear that he agrees with every word that was said by the noble Lord,
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Lord Mottistone, in introducing the Amendment. I should have thought there was clearly nothing more important than that people should be educated in the duties of citizenship and in particular in the duty of defending their native land. I think indeed we may say with some pride that it is characteristic of your Lordships' House that you immediately recognized this fact and devoted a considerable amount of attention to an aspect of education which you rightly regard as fundamental.
It is perfectly true, and I think it has been admitted this afternoon, that before this war there was a good deal of woolly thinking on matters of this kind. A good many people have, since 1939, changed their minds. Certainly, I should think that the war must have proved conclusively to everybody but the woolliest and the very silliest—and I hope they are not very many—that the defence of one's native land it inextricably bound up with the preservation of all those things which alone make life worth living. Therefore there is in fact no difference between the noble Lord and the Government on the object to be attained; none at all.
This, I think, is also clear from the answer which was given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education in another place on July 6. He said:
"It is the intention of my right honourable friend when the Education Bill becomes law to apprise local education authorities and teachers of the need for instruction in the duties and responsibilities of citizenship."
That is perfectly clear. He added:
"Such particular aspects of those duties and responsibilities as are referred to by my honourable friend"—
that is in the question he had been asked—
"cannot adequately be dealt with in regulations which prescribe the minimum conditions for the payment of grant. The precise manner in which the subject can most effectively be imparted to pupils of differing ages and abilities is at present engaging the attention of my right honourable friend."
What he meant was that it is a difficult question of machinery, but my right honourable friend the President of the Board is at present engaged in trying to find the most satisfactory means of satisfying what we all agree to be a desirable and necesssary condition of education.
In fact, really the question that is between us—if there is a question, and I

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hope there is not—is merely one of machinery: shall there be specific mention of this subject in the Bill or shall there not? That is the only question which is between us. The difficulty, as it has been explained before, of His Majesty's Government in this matter is that the Bill deals with the machinery of a public system of education and it does not prescribe toe subjects of the curriculum. Efforts have been made, as your Lordships know, during the debates in the Committee stage, and I think in Report stage, to introduce references to particular subjects which were of interest to noble Lords. There is the question of citizenship which has been introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone. There is the question of the Empire which was introduced by the noble Viscount, Lord Bledislce. They might easily have asked for the introduction of the subjects of history and geography, both of which are essential to citizenship and also to a knowledge of the British Commonwealth and Empire. But none of these things are in fact ruled out. On the contrary, nearly ill of them, perhaps all of them, will certainly be included in the curricula when the curricula are drawn up.
We have been told that the children of this country are to be educated spiritually, morally and mentally. I should have thought that the duties of citizenship arid the duty to defend one's native land were wholly covered by those words. Certainly they ought to be. I do think it is inappropriate to put these things in detail in the Bill itself. If you put in these things you will find that when the Bill goes back to another place there will be people pressing for the inclusion of other subjects, and ultimately you will probably get an immensely voluminous and still utterly incomplete and unsatisfying Bill, because there will always be people who have not got exactly what they want. I do therefore suggest to Lord Mottistone that he would be wise riot to press his Amendment at the present time. I would further repeat what my noble friend Lord Selborne has already said, that he is quite ready to undertake on behalf of my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Education that he will refer to his Advisory Council the question of how these difficult subjects may best be taught. I would have thought that that gives the House all they want because the Presi-
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dent of the Board will refer to his Advisory Council not the question of whether these things should be taught but how they should be taught. I suggest, therefore, there is no need for the House to debate this any longer and that we should come to a decision.
LORD CHATFIELD: My Lords, I should like to intervene, if I may, at this stage in view of the uncertainty as to whether my Amendment will come before your Lordships' House. I am not satisfied with the words of the Amendment moved by my noble friend. I think that the actual wording of his Amendment has been one of the causes of the stormy weather through which it has passed. As regards the question that has been just dealt with by the Leader of the House, I feel that the difficulty about how this regulation or law should be made is due to the fact that we have failed to put the security of the country on a high enough place. We, for instance, do not hesitate to put into the Education Bill religious teaching, yet we say we cannot put in anything about defence or about defending your country because it is called secular teaching. But why should you call the subject of the safety of the country secular teaching, like geography or history or some such subject? It ought to be on a higher plane. There is no controversy, or should be none, about the principle of the safety of the country any more than there is about the principle of religious teaching. I should have thought it would have been quite possible to have put into the Bill the safety of the country as you have put in religion because the two subjects are entirely separate from the ordinary secular curriculum.
To my mind the Amendment moved by Lord Mottistone does not go far enough. It does not touch the basic difficulties that have caused the controversies about which I addressed your Lordships some three months ago. You want to teach the young about their responsibilities and if you teach them that then you can be perfectly certain that when they have to fulfil those responsibilities they will not fail. I am not at all sure that it is wise at this time to put into a Bill, when our young men are fighting so wonderfully and when many are just leaving school to go into the front line, anything which implies that there can be any doubt at all about their being willing to defend their

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country, but I do feel that we can put in something which is quite uncontroversial, that it is our duty to tell the young of their responsibilities. For instance, I have suggested in the Amendment I have put on the Paper that they should be taught two things: that they should be taught, in the first place, something simple about the defence of their country, and secondly, that they should be taught the responsibilities for securing peace in the world that have been accepted by the British races.
As regards the first, surely the young should be taught that we live in a highly dangerous state in these islands, that we have got great responsibilities because we have a system which depends on a long line of communications all over the sea which are highly vulnerable, and that there are many people who would like to destroy them. We ought to be able to teach them the fact that the world is really not a very contented place, that there are many races who have grievances and who are dissatisfied with their position. If that is so, then it ought to be impressed upon the young because they are the factors which are the causes of war.
It is quite wrong to imagine that because you teach the young something about the duty of defending their country you are going to make them what is sometimes called, rather with derision, military-minded. The mistake we made in the peace years was that we believed love of peace and weakness went together and that aggression and strength were inevitably allied. That is wrong. We have to realize that strength should be in the hands of the peaceful and that the aggressor should not be allowed to be strong. Those are the kind of principles that we ought to teach the young, to my mind. But it would be quite insufficient to tell the young that all they need do is to be able to defend their country. That does not go far enough to-day.
The noble Lord, Lord Addison, said the other day that he would like them to be taught that a man has a duty towards his neighbour and that he should love his neighbour as himself. I think the young might wisely ask him: "Who is my neighbour?" That, you will remember, was the question asked by the young lawyer which led to Our Lord giving him
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the parable of the Good Samaritan. The Good Samaritan was not of the tribe of the man he helped and rescued. The teaching of the parable was that if anyone is in trouble it is your duty to help whether or not he is your brother or of your own race. There can be no doubt that that is the spirit which stood behind the League of Nations and it is the spirit which governed this country when we went into this war.
Although the cynic may say we went to war to defend ourselves, that was not the spiritual reason why we took up arms in defence of Poland or why we gave a guarantee to that country and to Greece. We must not forget that, and we must realize that the young of to-day are just as likely to have to fight for some brother in another hemisphere as to have to fight for their brothers in this country. Do they realize that? Do they realize that when we old men make laws and sign treaties they will have to honour those treaties when we have passed away? I do not think they do, and I am sure it is wrong that we should lay such heavy responsibilities on the young and not teach them that they have got those responsibilities perhaps one day to fulfil. I think we ought to teach them that the world is growing smaller every day, that they are no longer merely citizens of this country but citizens of the world, and that that is what gives them these immense responsibilities. If only you teach them that it will make their lessons in geography and history far more interesting. I agree with those who think that history should be taught the other way round, that the young should be taught modern history and taught their responsibilities, even if, at the end of their school days, they have not got further back than Ethelred the Unready. It is very important, if you teach youth about their responsibilities and about the dangers that this country is liable to suffer, that their knowledge should be tested when passing for their school certificate. If you do not do that you will not get keenness put by the teachers into the instruction.
The youth of to-day, as we all know, is the elector of to-morrow. He has to be taught that there are three things in our national life which have to be equated, the national income, the standard of living and our security. Those things ought to be equated in this way,

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that your standard of living is your national income less what you must expend on your national security. Unfortunately, we always put it the other way, and consequently in all democratic countries there has been the same failure, so that neither America nor ourselves, France or any other democratic country has been able to make themselves ready to fulfil their responsibilities. If you teach the young that they may have to fight for other countries besides their own on moral principles, then the end democratic weakness will be overcome, because youth will say: "If you have given us, you old men" (such as we who are here to-day) "these terrible responsibilities, will you give us the means of fulfilling them?" Then the political difficulties and the political hesitations in peace-time, in asking electors for money to defend the country, will gradually be overcome. Therefore I suggest that the wording of Lord Mottistone's Amendment should be changed, and that it should be changed into the words which I was to have moved in my own Amendment—the effect bring that we should teach the young t he responsibilities "for world peace and security accepted by the British races." If that is done there will be no doubt whatever that they will be as ready in the future as they have shown themselves to be to-day to defend their country.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, I am sure you r Lordships want a decision on this matter. I think I see daylight, a way out of this dilemma which is a very acute one. I believe that the most reverend Primate can quite easily be the agent of peace who will solve our problem. The dilemma arises because there are so many of us who think that it is so important that in all schools these things of which we have been speaking should be taught. We say that these duties are almost as important as one's duty to God, in fact they are in conformity with it. We know that failure to give this teaching did contribute to the great depletion of our Forces, a fact which my noble friend Lord Latham has quite forgotten.
LORD LATHAM: The politicians were responsible.
LORD MOTTISTONE: It is a fact that people were not anxious to serve. They did not think that it was necessary. But
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to revert to what I was saying, there is a way out of our dilemma. My noble friend the Leader of the House, in a speech in which he most generously accepted the substance of what I said, stated that he would have thought that what is to be taught in all schools—namely the "moral obligation"—would include what we have in mind. If the most reverend Primate would say, as I am sure he can, that in arranging for this moral instruction to be given in all schools there shall be included the teaching of one's duty to one's neighbour and the duties of citizenship, then I and my friends feel that we can easily withdraw my Amendment, for then we could rest assured that teaching of the kind to which we attach so much importance would be ensured.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, the noble Lord has appealed to me, and I am only too willing to do anything I can to help. But I do not know whether my influence will carry much weight in deciding what should be included in the word "moral." I should certainly desire that the moral teaching given in schools, and the moral influence exercised by them should tend in the direction of building up people to a full sense of their responsibility as citizens both for the maintenance of peace and for the defence of their country when subject to attack. I should also regard that as covering the points raised by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Chatfield. So far as my own personal influence might go, it would be exercised in this direction, but I cannot give any encouragement to the noble Lord to suppose that the decision in that matter will in any material degree rest with me.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: My Lords, may I add a word which I think might help my noble friends? It is ensured in the Bill that there shall be teaching of religion but what is to be taught is referred to a consensus of opinion between local authorities, the teachers, the denominations and everybody concerned as shown in conference. There is a whole schedule devoted to this. I think the word "moral" applied to teaching, without the slightest doubt includes obligations of citizenship. But as has been said you cannot proceed to define a syllabus in the Bill. To whom should it be referred? I would go back to the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord that the Central

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Advisory Council will consider the details of the matter and will discuss all teaching of this sort. The only final solution of the problem must be found in a consensus of opinion among the authorities, the teaching profession and anybody else concerned. The Central Advisory Council is an excellent body for exploring territory. The Bill contains requirements for religious teaching, teaching in the duty to God and moral teaching, and this certainly means also your duty to your neighbour. The Bill has special machinery for defining religious teaching and the Central Advisory Council is a vital part of the machinery.
Tim EARL of SELBORNE: My Lords, in view of what has just been said, may I make an appeal to my noble friend Lord Mottistone to accept the assurance that I have given that the President of the Board of Education will consult the Advisory Committee on this particular subject?
LORD MOTTISTONE: I am in the hands of my friends who are acting with me, but so far as I am concerned I think this debate has shown a determination on the part of the Government to further the views which we have put forward. That I think fulfils all that I have asked for. In view of what has been said, and especially in view of what has fallen from the lips of the most reverend Primate, I think we can rest content with the assurances that have been given and with your permission I will withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD CHATFIELD: In view of what has transpired I do not now propose to move my own Amendment.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: My Lords, I think that before the next noble Lord rises I ought to consult the House once more. We have not made nearly as good progress in this matter as I had hoped we should make, and there is a good deal more business on the Paper for to-day. In the circumstances, I would suggest that the wisest thing would be, after the long debate we have had on this clause, to adjourn the Report stage of the Education Bill now, proceed to the other business on the Paper, and start with Viscount Elibank's Amendment to-morrow.
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I would, in making that suggestion, plead with your Lordships for more expedition. If we can we must get on more quickly to-morrow. We must finish this debate on the Report stage to-morrow night, whatever happens.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LONDON: My Lords, is it possible to ask the noble Lords who are responsible for the next two Amendments to accept a similar assurance to that just given—namely, that their two Amendments would be referred to the Central Advisory Council? Everything which has been said on the two Amendments just dealt with applies equally to the next two Amendments. It has been agreed that we cannot construct a syllabus in this House and in this Bill. If the Government would consent to refer these two matters also to the Central Advisory Council I believe that the movers of the Amendment would best serve the interests which they have at heart, and would best assist the progress of the Bill by withdrawing.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I would like to accept the right reverend Prelate's proposal but before doing so I would like to hear a statement from the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, upon the subject because the Amendment I have put on the Paper has the effect of placing the whole onus on local authorities of making provision to enable pupils to acquire certain knowledge. I cannot accept a proposal to withdraw my Motion without hearing what the noble Earl has to say.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, I will certainly give my noble friend's words careful consideration. I suggest that we now ought to adopt the proposal of the noble Leader of the House that the debate on the Report stage of the Education Bill should be adjourned and should be resumed to-morrow with the Amendment of my noble friend Viscount Elibank.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I agree to that.
Further consideration of the Bill on Report adjourned till to-morrow.

VALIDATION OF WAR-TIME LEASES BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move the Second

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Reading of this Bill, and I wish to say a few words on the subject. It is undoubted law that an agreement to let premises for an uncertain period like "the duration of the war" does not constitute a valid lease. The reason is that at the date when a lease takes effect the date of its termination must be known, or at any rate capable of ascertainment. That is plainly not so when an agreement is made to let a house or other premises for a period such as "the duration of the war." A considerable number of agreements of this sort his been entered into, however, and, as your Lordships will readily understand, the question is what is to be lone, in view of the fact that it is now publicly known, by the decision of the Court of Appeal, that these leases are void and do not satisfy the conditions of a good lease.
This Bill is intended to deal with that subject, and it does so by three provisions, which perhaps I may be allowed briefly to mention. First of all, in Clause 1 it provides that where there is an agree rent which purports to create a tenancy for "the duration of the war" or the like, it is to take effect as an agreement for a tenancy for ten years, subject to the right, exercisable by either party, to determine the tenancy by notice if the war ends before the expiration of the ten years The notice will be a notice of at least a month. That is the first essential provision of the Bill—to take these agreements, which at present are unenforceable, the leases being void, and turn them into good leases for ten years, subject to the right to terminate them if the war ends before that time. Sometimes these leases are expressed as being for "the period of hostilities," "the period of military operations," and so on. Various phrases are used, and in a subsequent clause of the Bill these different phrases are dealt with. Your Lordships will see that if that is going to be done it is necessary to decide in the case of tenancy agreement s what is the meaning of "the war" or "hostilities," or whatever the phrase may be. There may be cases where it is quite plain that what is meant is the war with Germany; but unless there is something to indicate to the contrary, I think we must regard "the war" as meaning the whole war, and we should be wrong not to regard the
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war with Japan as being part of it. There may be other cases where the language used makes clear what is meant, but in Clause 2 it is provided that this phrase "the war," or "hostilities," or "the emergency," may be either war with all the States with whom His Majesty is at war or war with a particular State, and each agreement is to be construed as best it may, having regard to its terms in order to decide which it means, but with the provision that if there is nothing in the agreement to show one way or the other it must be treated as an agreement for the whole war.
There is one other essential provision. It is not easy to decide either legally or, it may be, in practice, the moment at which the war ends. Wars have a way of hanging on, and the date on which the war ends in the view of an international lawyer—the date when there is actual peace—is not the same as the end of hostilities. On the whole, people who make bargains such as leases for the period of the war possibly have not in mind the actual moment, which may be long hence, when complete peace is reestablished; they were much more likely to be thinking of circumstances in which their house was liable to be bombed, or they may be people who have retired to the country or who have been called up and who therefore cannot live in their own house. We therefore provide in Clause 2 (2) of the Bill that His Majesty may, by Order in Council, declare what date is to be treated for the purpose of any tenancy agreement as the elate of the end of the war, or the end of hostilities, according to whether the German war or the whole war is meant. I apprehend that this Order in Council fixing a certain date is likely to do so without too long a delay. To give people who have not a valid lease a lease which is good for ten years, subject to notice, is to do something for them, and I do not think that we ought to extend the period under this arrangement beyond what is reasonable. That is the object of Clause 2 (2). As to when the Order in Council will be made, it might be made when hostilities were manifestly dying down and the enemy was obviously on his last legs, but even so there would have to be a month's notice before it would be possible for the lease to be determined.
Those are the principal provisions of the Bill. They occupy rather more paper

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than one would wish, but the matter is both complicated and troublesome. In point of fact I had a Committee appointed which was presided over by a High Court Judge very well qualified to consider these matters, and who had the help of two or three others. They went into the matter with the greatest care and I feel confident that this Bill as drawn will be found to cover the ground. I shall be very disappointed if it does not. There is provision for its application to Scotland—which will save us another Bill—though not quite in the same terms. In Scotland the period of notice is to be not a month but forty days, which I gather is the more usual period in Scotland. Those are the terms of the Bill, and I move that it be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT MAUGHAM: My Lords, I should like to say a word with regard to this Bill, but not in any sense in a hostile spirit I must admit that I have not had time to study the Bill with the care which I should like to devote to it, having regard to my attempt to understand the Education Bill. There is only one point which has occurred to me which the able people who have assisted the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack in regard to this Bill may have forgotten, or of which they may not have thought. The point occurred to me because I have been a farmer, and I doubt whether the High Court Judge and the others who assisted him have had that experience. This Bill, as I understand it, will have this result, that if its provisions relate to a farm either party may terminate the tenancy by one month's notice in writing given after the end of the war. That may mean that the tenancy will not expire on a quarter day, and I know enough to know—and many of your Lordships who have been obliged to leave your homes know even better—that you make the most absolute hash of an agricultural tenancy if you are able to give notice which would make it expire not on one of the usual quarter days but on some totally different date. In some parts of the country the results would be terrible if the tenancy expired at any date except the September quarter-day, which would be the dale found in the original lease.
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I am not going to express any opinion other than that on this matter. All I urge is that the noble and learned Viscount should put the matter before people who are accustomed to deal with agricultural tenancies and see whether an additional clause is not needed to deal with that particular difficulty. I need not enlarge on the agricultural difficulty which would arise if you suddenly had a notice which determined your tenancy, we will say, on January 10. You may have sowings and reapings and all sorts of things coming into play in such a case and it is desirable that that matter should be considered.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I will take the advice of my noble and learned friend and I will certainly look into it again with those who assisted me. Without in the least giving a final opinion, I think it may turn out that the difficulty is overcome by the proviso (b) in Clause 1 (1). If in the first instance a letting has been for the period of the war and is an agricultural letting, it is hardly to be supposed that the agreement itself will not contain provisions that the premises are to be surrendered at the suitable time. Looking at it agriculturally, the persons concerned were making a bargain and the farmer who took the farm was taking an agricultural holding for the duration of the war, but of course he would not be so foolish as to overlook the difficulty that the noble and learned Viscount referred to. If he did not, he still gets under proviso (b) the advantage which, I agree, he ought to get. If the agreement provides for the termination of the tenancy by notice at the end of the war, that provision should not be subject to the provision in the Bill of a month's notice. So, if you examine this lease of a farm and find that it provides that the farm should be given up, let us say, at quarter day or perhaps on a particular quarter day after the end of the war, that provision is not altered at all. The one month is limited to cases where there is no set provision. But, of course, we will look into it again.
LORD ROCHE: My Lords, I hope the Lord Chancellor will do a similar favour in regard to another point which arises. These agricultural agreements are more common than one might suppose, for this reason, that the agricultural executive committee when they have to deal with

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an inefficient farmer are very fond of putting a farm into the hands of an efficient farmer. My impression is that it is for the period of the war and afterwards. That point is not dealt with by this Bill, but it probably should be, because for the purposes of this Bill I am not sure whether you should not have a provision for leases for the period of the war or for a term dependent on the period of the war. I have only just seen the Bill and I am not very certain about it, but I rather think that we need a provision other than that in proviso (a) to meet the point of the termination of a lease at some customary period. I should be glad if these points could be carefully looked into.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: They shall be.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

FINANCE BILL.
Order of the day for the Third Reading of this Bill read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT BENNETT: My Lords, I must ask your Lordships' indulgence for a few minutes while I say a few words on behalf of that almost forgotten man, the inventor. As the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack pointed out the other day, provision is made in this Bill for certain concessions to be granted to those who are engaged in research. Clause 27 provides that the Income Fax shall be reduced where scientific research is carried on and expenditure is incurred "not of a capital nature," and in the case of payments to research associations and universities it provides that the "expenditure incurred or sum paid, as the case may be, may be deducted as an expense in computing the profits or gains of the trade for the purposes of Income Tax," while Clause 28 makes provision for an allowance for capital expenditure on scientific research:
"A deduction equal to one-fifth of the expenditure shall be allowed in charging the profits or gains of the trade for each of the
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five years of assessment mentioned in the succeeding provisions of this section."
No provision is made, however, for the private investigator or inventor.
We have been talking a good deal about education, in the hope that we may be able to direct the attention of young men who have a bent in that direction towards invention, and invention becomes of the utmost importance under present conditions. It was pointed out by the Committee which sat on world trade and by the World Chambers of Commerce that it would be necessary to establish new industries in this country as a result of invention, and it has been pointed out on more than one occasion that invention has become of very great importance to the economy of this country. In fact, this country has always had a very tender regard for the inventor. I trespassed upon your Lordships' time last year to point out that the inventor secured a monopoly by reason of his invention, which we speak of as Letters Patent. The definition of that has been that it is a grant from the Crown of a monopoly in respect of an invention, and the grant of the Patent is a matter of the King's grace—something, I think, that is perhaps not always remembered. That attitude which Parliament has adopted towards the inventor is as old as 1623, when the Statute of Monopolies was passed. It was to restrain the exercise of the Royal Prerogative in granting undue monopolies to favourites and people of that kind. Now we have oar Letters Patent, and by an odd circumstance they still issue in practically the same form as they did in the earlier days before we had the existing Statute.
I say it is a very odd circumstance because the tenderness of Parliament to the inventor is illustrated by the terms of the Letters Patent. I will not trouble to read the whole text, but the basis of the Letters Patent is the beginning of the grant, and it provides—
"Know ye, therefore, that We of our especial grace, certain knowledge, and mere motion do by these presents, for Us, our heirs and successors, give and grant unto the said patentee our especial license, full power, sole privilege, and authority, that the said patentee by himself, his agents, or licensees, and no others, may at all times hereafter during the term of years herein mentioned, make, use, exercise, and vend the said invention within our United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the Isle of Man, in such manner as to him or them may seem meet, and that the said patentee shall have

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and enjoy the whole profit and advantage from time to time accruing by reason of the said invention during a term beginning on the date hereunder written of these presents and ending at the expiration of sixteen years from the date the sixteenth day of February one thousand nine hundred and forty: AND to the end that the said patentee may have and enjoy the sole use and exercise and the full benefit of the said invention, We do by these presents for Us, our heirs and successors, strictly command all our subjects whatsoever within our United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the Isle of Man, that they do not at any time during the continuance of the said term either directly or indirectly make use of or put in practice the said invention, or any part of the same, nor in anywise imitate the same, nor make or cause to be made any addition thereto or subtraction therefrom, whereby to pretend themselves the inventors thereof, without the consent, licence or agreement of the said patentee in writing under his hand and seal, on pain of incurring such penalties as may be justly inflicted on such offenders for their contempt of this our Royal command, and of being answerable to the patentee according to law for his damages thereby occasioned:"
There are provisions for the revocation of the Letters Patent, and provision also that the patent may be void for certain reasons. The document ends:
"Provided also that nothing herein contained shall prevent the granting of licences in such manner and for such considerations as they may by law be granted: and lastly, We do by these presents for Us, our heirs and successors, grant unto the said patentee that these our Letters Patent shall be construed in the most beneficial sense for the advantage of the said patentee."
This private investigator, carrying on research work, ultimately secures the patent in his hands, and this particular document confers certain privileges oh him to which I have referred. Yet if he sells his patent, as he may, for a lump sum, he pays no Income Tax because it is capital; and if he receives royalties, which include payment for his expenditure in getting his patent as well as the value of the sixteen years, he has to pay Income Tax, which of course makes the patent much less valuable than otherwise. Whether to that extent the exaction of Income Tax conflicts with the terms of the grant is a matter I do not propose to discuss, but I do point out to your Lordships that the inventor has some right to be considered as being in the same class as the man who makes a contribution to a university or a research bureau in which case the sum so contributed is deducted from the sum upon which he would otherwise pay Income Tax.
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The matter is of some importance, having regard to the future of this country and the necessity for assisting the inventor in every possible way, and that is my justification for bringing it to your Lordships' attention even at this late hour. There was no other occasion on which the matter could so suitably be brought to your attention for the reason that concessions have been granted with respect to expenditures made by companies for research work and also for payments made to others to do it as well as provision for capital. I suggest it is possible there might still be time to place the inventor in as favourable a position for carrying on his work and spending large sums of money, because in these days is is very difficult for inventors to devise new patents owing to the number that already exist and the difficulties with regard to specifications; but at any rate an opportunity should be afforded to look into the matter to ascertain whether the private investigator whom we wish to encourage, and who has always been encouraged for three centuries, should be placed in an equal position with those who carry on research work either as corporations or give assistance to others to do it, in consequence of which they get an allowance in respect of Income Tax.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, those of us who are here have been much interested to listen to my noble friend Lord Bennett. I should like to say just a word in reply. It is undoubtedly part of the finance law that royalties on a patent are subject to Income Tax. Undoubtedly in an ideal system you would draw a distinction between incomes which go on for ever and incomes which come to an end, as royalties on patents must do, in sixteen years; but as yet, at any rate, the Finance Acts have not drawn that distinction completely, though they have made some effort to adjust the position. The consequence is, as my noble friend implied, the owner of a patent receiving royalties in respect of it will find himself charged Income Tax on the amount of those royalties. There is a certain amount of logic in that arrangement, but it is part of a much larger question, which is the question of wasting assets. There are all sorts of incomes drawn from the ownership of property which in the course of time will be worked out and will exist no more, and

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in these cases, whatever the reason may be, the Finance Acts of this country treat the annual receipts as being all annual income.
There is one other thing that my noble friend may be interested to be informed upon. Quite recently the President of the Board of Trade appointed a Committee to advise him on the law of patents. It is presided over by a very distinguished member of the Patent Bar, Mr. Kenneth Swan, and I have no doubt that in due course it will produce a report and recommendations. When that report comes we shall see whether it is in any way proposed to amend the trying position which my noble friend has described to the House in such moderate and brief terms. As it is, I am afraid that the owners of patents must continue to pay Income Tax on their receipts.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

LAW OFFICERS BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
INDIA (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

PARLIAMENTARY ELECTORS (WAR-TIME REGISTRATION) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT BENNETT: My Lords, once more I must ask your indulgence to draw attention to a matter that I consider to be of some importance, though it may not commend itself to your Lordships. We are all familiar with the discussions which have taken place with regard to the failure of democracy as a form or system of government. Perhaps the strongest statement with respect to democracy in modern times was made by Professor Lecky in his book Democracy and
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Liberty. Yet Sir Henry Maine pointed out more clearly within the memory of many of us that democracy was bound to fail as a system of government for reasons he gave, indicating that the fact of the intelligent portion of the community being outnumbered by those not quite so intelligent or well-informed was bound to bring about a condition in which democracy would fail. In modern days at any rate the tendency has been to believe that as a system or form of government it has been to a very considerable extent a failure. Like all your Lordships, I have given some attention to try to ascertain the reasons why that is so. I am quite sure the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has given very much attention to it, as no doubt every member of this House has done.
I have arrived at the conclusion that the reason democracy has failed is that we have departed from the fundamental principle on which it was established. Originally action was taken by a clan or tribe only by unanimity. All steps had to be taken with unanimity—that is, every single chief or every single member of the tribe or clan could, for instance, prevent the tribe from going to war. They required this unanimity for action. That was the basis of it. Then as time went on it became clear that the accomplishment of that aim was very difficult. I remember that the late Lord Balfour pointed out on one occasion that the man who invented rule by majority had been the greatest politician of all time. The cold fact is that a change has occurred. The rule of democracy was that the majority ruled and that the minority accepted the will of the majority as their will and thereby made it unanimous. That was the theory of it. We had great success in that but by and by there came into existence more than two Parties in the State. In some Acts there was provision for a majority of two-thirds or three-quarters, especially on constitutional matters. This is so in the United States and in some of our own Dominions. That being so, the question then arose: What would happen when Parliament no longer consisted of only two Parties? The result was that instead of having the will of the majority we have more frequently the will of the minority imposed upon the majority. I submit to your Lordships that that is a negation of democracy, that the foundation of democracy is the rule

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of the majority and that any departure from that rule such as we now have is what has caused the failure of democracy.
I will put another branch of the subject to your Lordships—namely, what we call proportional representation. That involves minority membership in any legislative or other body and that too is a negation of democracy. Take, for instance, a constituency of 21,000 electors. There are three candidates at the election. Seven thousand and one votes may elect a candidate. Twenty-one thousand divided by three plus one means that 7,001 votes may enable a man to get a seat in the House of Commons or any other Legislative body. What is the net result? It is that the majority is not represented and you have government by a minority. I know that there are many who will be very shocked at any observations that there should be more than one polling day, but the truth is, as has been found in some countries, that in order that the principle of democracy may prevail there should be a second poll between the two highest candidates at the first polling day. That does secure for any legislative body a party that represents the majority of the people of the State or province or realm. It secures that Parliament represents the majority. A Parliament that represents a minority can never function successfully as a democracy because the majority will not be bound by the will or caprice of a mere minority. That is one of the reasons why in my judgment we have had the difficulties that have become so accentuated since there have been an increasing number of candidates at elections.
I think it worthy of consideration that in dealing with the future of representation we should make provision so that the old foundation principle upon which democracy has been founded is maintained—namely, that the majority must rule, that a strong Government or a Government that reflects the will of the people shall be a Government that is supported by a majority of the electors. At this late hour I will not elaborate what I bad thought might be said. I shall con-
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tent myself merely with the observations I have made for I believe that we must take some steps, especially in the future, now that we have universal suffrage of both men and women, to ensure that the principle of democracy is preserved. The cause of the discussions we have had today with respect to citizenship and with respect to all those matters which affect the welfare of the Realm and of the individual is to be found in the failure of democracy. This can only be safeguarded by the principle that the will of the majority must prevail in the Government of the country and must be embodied in any Statutes providing for the representation of the people of the country in the Commons House of Parliament.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I would wish, as a matter of courtesy, to assure my noble friend that those of us who have remained have been much interested in what he has said. There are one or two points on which I might on another occasion offer my modest contribution, but having regard to the hour I will put the question.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.

CHESTERFIELD AND BOLSOVER WATER BILL.
The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: the Orders made on the 29th of June and Thursday last discharged, and the Bill committed.
MIDDLESEX COUNTY COUNCIL BILL.
The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: the Orders made on Wednesday and Thursday last discharged, and the Bill committed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Leave was given to the Viscount Hutchinson (E. Donoughmore) to vote in the House during the present Session.
House adjourned.