Sitting of 23 February 1944

Preamble
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  UNITED STATES CLAIMS COMMISSION
  Sir John Mellorasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now make a statement with regard to the United States Claims Commission in the United Kingdom.
  The Minister of State (Mr. Richard Law): I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on 3rd February to the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger). As my right hon. Friend has already informed the hon. Gentleman, he hopes to be able to arrive at an early settlement of this question.
  Sir J. Mellor: How much longer is this matter to remain undetermined? The American Forces have been driving vehicles about this country for a very long time, and is it not most unfair that people who are injured by American Army vehicles should be in a worse condition than those injured by British Army vehicles?
  Mr. Law: My right hon. Friend hopes to get a very early settlement of this matter. I hope there will not be very much longer delay. This is an extremely complicated question, and it is important that we should get a comprehensive settlement. That is the reason for the delay.
  Mr. Moelwyn Huģhes: In view of the comparable nature of the jurisprudence of the United States of America and this country, is it not possible to set up an acceptable impartial tribunal for the adjudication of these claims?
  Mr. Law: As I have said, negotiations for a settlement of this matter are already in progress, and I hope the settlement will not be long delayed. When this has been arrived at, my right hon. Friend will make a statement, and I think the House will be well advised to await that statement.
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  My right hon. Friend is fully conscious of the urgency of the matter.
  Mr. Silverman: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the House is to have any opportunity of knowing in advance along what lines negotiations are proceeding, or are we to wait until agreement has been reached, to be faced then with its acceptance or rejection?
  Mr. Bowles: Will any such agreement cover the question of the criminal law as well?
  Mr. Law: We must follow our usual practice in these matters and await the final negotiations.
  Captain Strickland: Is my right hon. Friend aware that we had a similar reply on 10th November to the effect that the matter was under discussion; and surely it does not take all this time for the American Forces to realise their moral responsibility in these matters in this country?
  Mr. Law: This is an extremely complicated question, and that is the reason for the delay. As I have said, I think there will be a very satisfactory settlement soon.
  Captain Stricklandasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to an accident which occurred, on 21st December, 1943, at Mount Sorrel, Leicestershire, when an American army lorry collided with a stationary motor car causing considerable damage; and whether he has anything to report on the progress of negotiations to secure a proper recognition of liability in such cases.
  Mr. Law: Yes, Sir. My attention has been drawn to this accident and inquiries have been made about it to the United States Claims Commission. As regards the second part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Sir J. Mellor).
  Captain Strickland: But can my right hon. Friend explain why it was that after an application to the American authorities, no reply whatever was made?
  Mr. Law: I am afraid I am not familiar with the details of this case. As I have said, we are doing everything we can to expedite a solution of the matter.
  Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward: Is my right hon. Friend aware that police patrols are very active in stopping British cars driving at an excessive speed and will he do something to slow down American traffic?
  Mr. Silverman: Is it not true that, under a recent Act, our police have no jurisdiction to interfere with American drivers?

  SPAIN

    Neutrality
    Mr. Ivor Thomasasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is satisfied that, as a result of the recent Anglo-American protests, the Spanish Government is now pursuing strict neutrality.
    Mr. Butcherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Italian vessels detained by the Spanish Government have yet been released.
    Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can make any statement about the stoppage of oil or other supplies to Spain; and if he has any information which indicates an abatement of activities in Spain hostile to the cause of the United Nations.
    Mr. G. Straussasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any progress has been made in discussions with the Portuguese and Spanish Governments about the shipments from those countries of wolfram to Germany.
    Mr. Law: I would ask my hon. Friends to await the statement which my right hon. Friend proposes to make in the Debate to-day.
    Mr. Ivor Thomas: Will my right hon. Friend consider that if the Foreign Secretary follows that course, it will not be possible to ask questions about it except by the undesirable method of interruptions? Would he consider the alternative course of making a statement at the end of Questions, especially as these Questions have now been on the Order Paper for a long time?
    Mr. Law: No, Sir. These matters are of some delicacy and complication, and it would be better to allow the Foreign Secretary to deal with them in his own way.

    Letters to British Subjects (German Censorship)
    Mr. Martinasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that letters to British subjects in Spain are subject to a German censorship; and whether he can give any reasons for such action.
    Mr. Law: Yes, Sir. I am aware that a number of letters sent from this country to Spain have been censored in Germany; but I have no evidence that this is due to other than accidental mis-sorting. In response to inquiries made by His Majesty's Ambassador, the Spanish Government have undertaken to take all possible steps to prevent such mistakes.
    Mr. Martin: Would my right hon. Friend say where the sorting takes place?
    Mr. Law: As far as we know, this sorting must take place in Spain.
    Mr. Shinwell: But if the sorting of the letters takes place in Spain of letters sent from this country, surely it is not the Germans who are responsible but the Spanish authorities?
    Mr. Law: No, Sir. I think the hon. Member has misunderstood the tenor of my reply. The mis-sorting is that letters which should be delivered in Spain are sent to Germany. The hon. Member must realise that everything is not as efficient as the General Post Office here.
    Mr. Martin: I am sorry to pursue the matter further, but could the right hon. Gentleman say where mis-sorting takes place? Is it in this country, in Portugal, in Spain, or where?
    Mr. Law: As far as we know, the mis-sorting takes place in Spain.
    Mr. Woodburn: Surely it is strange that, letters going from this country, certainly not addressed to Germany, should be delivered to Germany by the Spanish authorities; and is this mis-sorting accidental or on purpose?
    Mr. Law: As I have said, we have no evidence to show that it is anything but accidental. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes, indeed, and the Spanish Government have undertaken to take all possible steps to prevent a recurrence.
    Mr. Shinwell: Can we be assured that if that undertaking is not respected in the near future, and if any more accidental mis-sortings take place, we shall take prompt action with the Spanish Government? Can we have that assurance?
    Mr. Law: I can give the hon. Member the assurance that we shall, of course, take any action that is open to us.

  PRISONERS OF WAR
  Major-General Sir Alfred Knoxasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any progress has been made in negotiations with Germany with a view to an arrangement, under paragraph 72 of the Geneva Convention, for the accommodation in neutral countries of prisoners of war in good health who have been a long time in captivity; and whether, under such an arrangement, British prisoners might be sent to Eire and German prisoners to Switzerland or Sweden.
  Mr. Law: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the statement which my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State made on 18th January, pointing out the necessity of collecting full particulars on the basis of which a proposal might be made to the German Government. These particulars are not yet available for the reasons which he then gave. There have not, therefore, up till now, been any negotiations either with the German Government or with other Governments. I am obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend for the suggestion in the second part of the Question, which will be carefully considered.
  Sir A. Knox: Would the right hon. Gentleman state what particulars are necessary? Surely we know all our prisoners who have been a long time in captivity?
  Mr. Law: German prisoners of war are distributed over the length and breadth of the British Commonwealth, and we have to get particulars from other parts of the Commonwealth before we can proceed any further with this matter.
  Sir A. Knox: But surely, after four years, the right hon. Gentleman's Department ought to have those particulars?

  FOOD AND AGRICULTURE (HOT SPRINGS CONFERENCE)
  Mr. Priceasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps have been taken towards the implementing of the decisions of the Hot Springs Conference.
  Mr. Law: The Interim Commission which was set up in accordance with Resolution II of the Hot Springs Conference, has now completed the task of preparing a draft formal declaration of principles and a draft constitution for a Permanent Organisation of Food and Agriculture. These drafts have been referred to the Governments concerned for further consideration.
  Mr. Price: Will the Foreign Secretary take every opportunity to impress upon the Governments concerned the great importance of the decisions of this Conference from the point of view of world food?
  Mr. Law: I am sure that my right hon. Friend will do everything possible to press the matter.

  FOREIGN SERVICE (MISSIONS AND EMBASSIES)
  Mr. Ivor Thomasasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the number of missions abroad which have now been raised to the status of embassies and, in view of the danger that a country to which an ambassador is not accredited may feel slighted, he will convert all missions into embassies.
  Mr. Law: His Majesty's Government do not at present contemplate such action.

  ITALIAN NATIONAL CONGRESS (TELEGRAM)
  Mr. Vernon Bartlettasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the text of the telegram despatched by the Bari assembly of Italian democrats to this House has been delayed in transmission.
  Mr. Law: My hon. Friend will probably be aware that, owing to military requirements, no facilities as yet exist for the transmission of ordinary telegraphic and written correspondence,

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  other than Press messages, between Italy and the United Kingdom. The message to the House from the National Congress of Liberation held at Bari was, nevertheless, as an exceptional measure, accepted for transmission through official channels. In view of the heavy burden placed on our communications at the present time, I feel sure that my hon. Friend will agree that any complaint of undue delay would be unjustified.

  PENICILLIN (BRITISH COUNCIL PAMPHLET)
  Mr. Shinwellasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the medical panel of the British Council have issued a pamphlet on penicillin for circulation abroad; and whether he will make it available to hon. Members.
  Mr. Law: The document to which the hon. Member refers is the latest number of a monthly periodical, the "British Medical Bulletin," which is produced by the British Council. The purpose of the Medical Bulletin is to keep medical circles abroad informed of important medical research work done hi the United Kingdom. Owing to the paper shortage only a few copies of each number are available for distribution in this country, but in view of the special interest taken in penicillin, several hundred copies of the number dealing with this subject have been printed for distribution to members of the medical profession in the United Kingdom. I am arranging for copies to be placed in the Library of the House.

  POST-WAR REQUIREMENTS (INTER-ALLIED COMMITTEE)
  Mr. Bartlettasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what action the British Government have taken or propose to take on the Report of the Inter-Allied Committee on Post-War Requirements issued in June, 1943.
  Mr. Law: This Report was presented to the Council of the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration at its first session at Atlantic City by the Chairman of the Inter-Allied Committee on Post-war Requirements and is now under consideration by the Director-General
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  and the appropriate Committees of the Council. Action by His Majesty's Government will depend on their recommendations.
  Mr. Bartlett: Will my right hon. Friend do what he can to speed up the operation of U.N.R.R.A.? Is it not a fact that this Report does require urgent decisions on such matters as the financing of supplies and so on; and is it not of the greatest importance that action should be taken as soon as possible?
  Mr. Law: Yes, Sir. His Majesty's Government will do everything possible to expedite it.

  UNITED STATES AND JAPAN (DOCUMENTS)
  Major Lloydasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will approach the Government of the U.S.A. with a view to securing a copy of the documents, recently published by the State Department, exonerating this country from any breach of faith over the Manchurian crisis of 1931, and then making it available in the Library of this House.
  Mr. Law: I presume my hon. and gallant Friend is referring to the documents recently published as "Foreign Relations of the United States, Japan, 1931 to 1941." As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary informed my hon. Friend the Member for West Bristol (Mr. Culverwell) on 26th January, a copy of volume I has been placed in the Library. A copy of Volume II is being obtained and will be similarly made available for Members.

  BRITISH PRISONERS, SINGAPORE
  Sir Arnold Gridleyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any information regarding the intention of the Japanese Government to remove elsewhere one-third of the civil population of Singapore; and particularly, whether both civilian and military prisoners of war are included.
  Mr. Law: I regret that I have no information on this subject.
  Sir A. Gridley: In view of the great anxiety of those who have sons and other relatives in Japanese hands in Singapore, will my right hon. Friend prosecute inquiries actively in any way open to him?
  Mr. Law: Yes, Sir. These inquiries are being prosecuted.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Requisitioned Airfield (Compensation)
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Secretary of State for Air what is the position regarding an aerodrome, particulars of which have been sent to him; what is the reason for the delay in coming to a decision; and what steps are being taken to compensate the company concerned for disturbance and loss on their farming operations.
    Captain McEwen (Lord of the Treasury): I have been asked to reply. This airfield was released from requisition by the Air Ministry on 7th April, 1941. A sum in respect of compensation assessed under the provisions of the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, was paid to the owners in March, 1942.
    Sir W. Smithers: As I could not hear that reply, and in view of the unavoidable absence of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister, will my hon. and gallant Friend convey to him the desirability of coming to decisions as quickly as possible about aerodrome sites so that disturbance to farmers and other private individuals can be avoided?
    Captain McEwen: Yes, Sir.

    Wives' Allowances
    Mr. Hutchinsonasked the Secretary of State for Air if any decision has now been reached as to whether, in cases where an airman claims to be no longer responsible for the support of his wife and to withdraw his allotment, local inquiries or attempts at reconciliation will be made before the wife's allowance is withdrawn.
    Captain McEwen: Yes, Sir. It has been decided that when an airman and his wife are estranged and the airman seeks to withdraw his allotment, attempts at reconciliation will be made before the wife's allowance is withdrawn unless the circumstances render such action obviously undesirable.
    Miss Rathbone: Is it right that even if an attempt at reconciliation fails, the wife's means of livelihood should suddenly be withdrawn without any effort being made to find out whether she is deserving of an allowance?

  HOUSING

    Building Costs
    Wing-Commander Jamesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works if the costing section of his Department is now working; and if he can now explain the considerable rise that has taken place in the cost of house building, giving an analysis of its cause.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Hicks): Yes, Sir. As my Noble Friend has explained in another place, one of the purposes of the erection of demonstration houses is to obtain comparative costs of house building on an accurate basis. I shall be pleased to let the hon. and gallant Member see the results after the houses are completed.
    Wing-Commander James: Can my hon. Friend say how soon I can put down a question in order that other Members may also see the results?
    Mr. Hicks: Provided that we do not get any unusual disturbance in the country and that the labour is available, I should say in about six weeks.
    Mr. Shinwell: In so far as the increased cost of house building may be attributable to the increased cost of material, haw does that square with the Government's policy of preventing inflation?
    Mr. Hicks: To give a detailed analysis of the rising costs of building materials, transport and other things would require a long time indeed. Of course, any one thing that is inflated, tends to increase inflation.

    Discharged Servicemen.
    Mr. Bossomasked the Minister of Health whether he will give an assurance that arrangements will be made definitely permitting discharged Servicemen to regain possession of their homes and that they will not be prevented from doing so by virtue of any provision in the Rent Restriction Act.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Horsbrugh): I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Renfrew (Major Lloyd) on 10th February, of which I am sending him a copy.
    Mr. Bossom: Is the hon. Lady aware that inability to regain the use of their own houses is causing a lot of worry to men in the Forces? Will she see whether anything can be done about it?
    Miss Horsbrugh: If my hon. Friend will look at the reply I think he will see that those people can apply to the courts for an order. I would remind my hon. Friend that, at the present time, a Committee is sitting particularly to look into the Rent Restrictions Acts.
    Mr. Bossomasked the Minister of Health whether he intends making it obligatory upon local authorities and landlords to give priority in leasing their houses to ex-Servicemen even though their financial position, on account of war-time activities may not be the same as that of the civilian.
    Miss Horsbrugh: As my right hon. and learned Friend has informed my hon. Friend in correspondence, the points raised are receiving careful consideration and he is not at present in a position to make any further statement on them.
    Mr. Bossom: Would the hon. Lady tell me when I could put down a Question and get an answer on this very important matter?
    Miss Horsbrugh: Of course it is a very important matter, and further consideration must be given to it. Perhaps I can inform my hon. Friend what would be an advantageous moment for him to put down a Question.
    Mr. R. C. Morrison: Does the investigation which the hon. Lady is conducting include the possibility of giving power to local authorities to compel estate agents and house agents to notify their vacancies to local authorities, so that they can give priority to the most deserving cases?
    Miss Horsbrugh: The whole question is being looked into, and the point raised by my hon. Friend will be borne in mind.
    Mr. Mathers: Is it the practice of local authorities to lease houses to tenants, as stated in the Question?

    Demonstration Houses (Grates)
    Mr. Keelingasked the Parliamenmentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works whether it is intended that the grates in the experimental houses at
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    Northolt shall be either of the new non-smoke-producing type or suitable for burning smokeless fuel.
    Mr. Hicks: As my noble Friend has explained, in another place, the houses referred to are for the specific purpose of demonstrating alternative methods of house construction and ascertaining comparative costs. It is considered, therefore, that all questions of heating and cooking should be studied and dealt with separately, in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power.
    Mr. Keeling: Does not the hon. Gentleman think it is a pity that in these demonstration houses there is no sign whatever of any progress in smoke abatement, in spite of all the money which has been spent on research? Will the hon. Gentleman consider representations on this subject?
    Mr. Hicks: I cannot agree with the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, but in regard to the second part, the answer is, "Yes."
    Mr. McGovern: Has not the time come when houses all over the country should be all-electric?
    Mr. Hicks: I do not think that that would be universally accepted.
    Mr. E. P. Smith: Can the hon. Gentleman say what is the use of erecting experimental houses which do not experiment?

  MALTESE CIVIL SERVANTS (ALLOWANCES)
  Mr. W. J. Brownasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the proposal to exact from Maltese civil servants on loan to Italian bases the sum of 2s. daily for messing repayments absorbs practically the whole of the £40 allowed to them to meet the cost of extra expenses due to temporary transfer; that, owing to the inadequacy of the rates proposed, volunteers are not forthcoming; and if he will consider increasing the amounts to be paid.
  The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Captain Pilkington): The allowance of £40 per annum is that payable to an unmarried Maltese clerk, temporarily transferred for service in Italy, in respect of the

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  extra expenses incurred by such service. The rate was fixed in November last on the basis that such men would be provided with free accommodation, and as it is more than sufficient to meet the messing charge mentioned by the hon. Member, there is no obvious case for increasing it. No representations have been received from the local naval authorities that volunteers are not forthcoming because of the inadequacy of the allowance, but, as has already been explained, departmentally to the Civil Service Clerical Association, the rate is provisional and subject to review, and this review is now proceeding.
  Mr. Brown: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say when he expects this consideration to be completed?
  Captain Pilkington: No, Sir, but the naval authorities there have been asked what is the position, following the hon. Member's Question.

  PALESTINE

    s.s. "Patria" (Compensation for Losses)
    Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is now able to make a statement with reference to the possibility of giving compensation to those who lost their luggage in the s.s. "Patria."
    The Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (Mr. Emrys-Evans): I have been asked to reply. No, Sir. I regret that my right hon. and gallant Friend is not able to make a statement, as there are at present two cases arising out of these matters which are sub judice before the Palestine courts of justice.

    Potash Cartel
    Sir A. Knoxasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the prewar agreements between Palestine Potash Limited, and the German-controlled European potash cartel as to production, prices and quota will be allowed to function at the end of the present war.
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: I am afraid that I can add nothing to the Prime Minister's reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) on 22nd July last, to the effect that the question of the
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    participation of British firms in arrangements or cartels with British or foreign firms or associations for the purposes mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend is already receiving consideration.
    Sir A. Knox: Will my hon. Friend take into consideration the fact that potash is a fertiliser and that all food production must be increased after the war?

  MAURITIUS (JEWISH REFUGEES)
  Mr. Martinasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many European refugees are now interned on the island of Mauritius; of what nationalities are they; how many are known to be sympathetic to the Allied cause; and how many have professional or technical qualifications of recognised standing.
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: There are some 1,400 Jewish refugees in Mauritius. They include Austrians, Czechs, Poles, Danzigers and Germans. I have no reason to believe that they are other than sympathetic to the Allied cause. I have no data on the last part of the Question.
  Mr. Martin: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some of these people have excellent technical qualifications and that the Allied cause should make some use of them, instead of keeping them in internment, doing nothing year after year?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: A certain number have already been released and are in the service of the Allies.
  Mr. Astor: Are these refugees doing nothing, or are they engaged in some useful occupation to help the Allied cause?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: I have said that a certain number have already joined the Allied Forces.
  Mr. Silverman: Is it not the case that those who have not been released, those who are still in camp—which is the greater number—are compelled by the Government to spend days in idleness when they are capable of doing useful work and are anxious to do it?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: I should want notice of that question.
  Mr. McGovern: Are these Jewish refugees being imprisoned at the same time as they are asked to do something useful for the Allied cause?

  WEST AFRICA (PRODUCE PRICES)
  Mr. Wootton-Daviesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the prices paid to native producers in British West Africa for palm oil, cocoa and ground nuts, respectively, now and in June, 1939, respectively.

  Price 1939 (per ton).

  Price 1944 (per ton).

  Palm Oil, Nigeria

  …

  …

  …

  Grade II naked ex scale port of shipment £7 12s. 6d.

  Grade II naked ex scale port of shipment £12 19s. 0d.

  Cocoa, Gold Coast

  …

  …

  …

  Equivalent to naked ex scale port of shipment £15 17s. 4d.

  Equivalent to naked ex scale port of shipment £15 0s. 0d.

  Cocoa, Nigeria

  …

  …

  …

  …

  Naked ex scale port of shipment £16 10s. 0d.

  Naked ex scale port of shipment £12 0s. 0d.

  Groundnuts, Nigeria

  …

  …

  …

  Naked ex scale Kano £5 6s. 3d.

  Naked ex scale Kano £9 0s. 0d.

  Groundnuts, Gambia

  …

  …

  …

  Naked ex scale port of shipment £5 0s. 0d.

  Naked ex scale port of shipment £8 13s. 6d.

  The basis on which prices are fixed has since 1939 been altered in favour of the producers, so hat the figures given above for 1939 and 1944 are to that extent not strictly comparable

  COLONIAL DEVELOPMENT AND WELFARE ACT (GRANTS)
  Mr. Rileyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) the total approximate sum approved for grants for schemes, under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act of 1940, for all the Colonies eligible for grants; and the approximate total amount actually spent on such approved schemes;
  (2) the total approximate sum granted for approved schemes under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act of 1940 in the British West Indian Colonies and African Colonies, respectively; and the approximate amount actually spent on such schemes in each case.
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: The total commitments under Schemes approved under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act to date amount to £7,408,746. Issues in respect of these schemes are £1,300,951. The figure of £7,408,746 also includes schemes amounting to £4,056,591 for the West Indies and £2,046,147 for Africa, for which issues of £638,600 and £447,851 have been made.
  Mr. Riley: Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that under the Colonial
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: As so many figures are involved, I am, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulating a statement with the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Following is the statement:
  Precise figures for June, 1939, are not available, and in this statement the figures for 1939 are those which prevailed when the purchase of cocoa, groundnuts and palm products became subject to control shortly after the outbreak of war.
  Development Welfare Act, 1940, £20,000,000 ought to have been available; and is £4,000,000 in the West Indies satisfactory progress?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: I think, if the hon. Member reads the reply he will find that over £4,000,000 have been available to the West Indies.
  Sir Alfred Beit: Does not the reply imply that the far greater part of the sum has been earmarked for the West Indies and the African Colonies? Are any amounts being made available to other parts of the Colonial Empire?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: Under Section 4 of the Act a Report with all details will be laid before Parliament as soon after 31st March as possible.
  Mr. Shinwell: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that it is impossible to develop the Colonies as we desire to develop them with such a miserably inadequate sum?

  SEYCHELLES (FINES)
  Mr. Rileyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that labourers in the Seychelles are being fined as much as half a month's wages

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  for failing to produce their pass badges when requested by a policeman; that if they fail to pay the fine within one month they become liable to a week's imprisonment with hard labour; and will he have consideration given to this harsh administration.
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: I have ascertained that during 1943 seven labourers were fined Rs.5 and one Rs.10 for failing to produce their registration badge. The rate of imprisonment in default of payment of these fines would be five and ten days respectively. With regard to the last part of the Question my right hon. and gallant Friend is consulting with the Governor.
  Mr. Riley: Does the hon. Gentleman think it satisfactory that a labourer receiving only 16s. 6d. a month should be fined half his monthly wages, for not being able to produce his pass badge when asked?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: My right hon. and gallant Friend is consulting the Governor on the point.
  Mr. Stephen: Do white people have pass badges?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: That is another question.

  MERCHANT NAVY (BOOKS)
  Sir A. Knox asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport when the promised booklet will be published on the work of the Merchant Navy.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker): Two books about the work of the Merchant Navy are being prepared. The first deals with ocean-going ships; the text is finished, and the Ministry of Information hope to issue it, with a number of illustrations, during the summer. The second book deals with coastal ships; the work on the text is well advanced.
  Sir A. Knox: The hon. Gentleman promised these booklets a year ago. They are long overdue.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: It takes a long time to do the work. I hope the books will be in time to let the public understand what magnificent work the Merchant Navy has done.

  RAILWAYS

    Accident, Ilford (Inquiry)
    Mr. Granvilleasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport if he can now make a statement on the findings of the inquiry into the causes of the railway accident at Ilford on 16th January.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: No, Sir, I regret that the Report on the railway accident at Ilford is still in course of preparation. It will be issued as soon as possible.
    Mr. Granville: Can the hon. Gentleman give any indication when the Report is likely to be received by his Department, and when he will be able to make a statement?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I wish I could. Apart from technical difficulties, our officers often have to wait until injured passengers have recovered.
    Mr. Granville: In the near future?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I hope so.

    Coal Rebates
    Mr. Thorneasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport the amount paid over to the Minister of Fuel and Power under the Railway Freight Rebate Act of 1943, in connection with the coal rebates and other information coming under the schedule.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Nine hundred and one thousand and thirteen pounds have so far been paid to the Minister of Fuel and Power under the terms of the Railway Freight Rebates Act of 1943. The Railway Rates Tribunal have made the following estimates in accordance with the Schedule to the Act:
    For the period from the suspension of Coal Rebates in July, 1943, to 30th September, 1943, £604,500.
    For the year beginning on 1st October, 1943, £1,184,853.

    Reserved Compartments
    Captain Bernaysasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he will state the circumstances under which the railway companies, on long-distance trains for London, may be requested to label carriages "Not for public use," other than in the case of the Admiralty courier, or official troop movements.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Among the other circumstances which are held to warrant labelling a compartment with the notice "not for public use" are the conveyance of prisoners and certain other special journeys about the nature of which I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend not to press me for particulars.
    Mr. Keeling: Why could not such compartments be reserved for Overseas Airways passengers, so as to avoid running special trains for them?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: That is another question, which my hon. Friend would have to put to the Secretary of State for Air.
    Mr. E. Walkden: Would the Minister assure us that he will keep a close watch on these labels, as certain privileged persons seem, for a good-sized tip, to be able to obtain the use of the labels unlawfully?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir, I will watch the matter, and if my hon. Friend will give me any evidence of abuse I will go into it.

    Unnecessary Traffic
    Mr. Rostron Duckworthasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he intends to intensify in the coming months his warning against unnecessary rail traffic.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: The need for economy in the use of the railways is greater than at any previous period of the war, and this is being emphasised, and will continue to be emphasised, as seems desirable.
    Sir Herbert Williams: Will my hon. Friend urge on the Service Ministers that they might send troops about the country on unnecessary journeys to a diminishing extent?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: We are in constant contact with the Services and we must meet their operational requirements.

  ROADS

    Empty Lorry Journeys
    Captain Stricklandasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport why, under the instructions of his Department, road vehicle 5 S. 10/50 was sent empty from London to Wisbech, on 5th February, to fetch potatoes and carried a total of 16½ tons
    824
    in two journeys which occupied the whole week to 11th February at a cost of £3 per ton as against the standing charges of 17s. 6d. and 22s. 6d. per ton under private enterprise and ran 188 unloaded miles in the two journeys.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Between 5th February and 11th February Lorry No. 5 S. 10/50 lost one and a half working days owing to unloading difficulties, for which the Road Haulage Organisation was not to blame. It carried, however, loads amounting not to 16½ tons, but to 35½ tons. Besides potatoes, the loads included paper and cement. The loaded mileage was 243. The rate charged by the Organisation for the transport of potatoes from Wisbech to London is 17s. 6d.
    Captain Strickland: Has the hon. Gentleman endeavoured to compare this cost with the actual cost involved; and what steps did the Department take to provide a load to Wisbech?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: They took every possible step to provide a load. On the question of cost, I have made inquiries and I am afraid the hon. and gallant Gentleman's intelligence service has let him down. Allowing for demurrage and overheads, the cost per ton was not £3, as he alleges in his Question, but 18s.
    Captain Strickland: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the owner of the vehicle asked the controller whether he could send a load and was told, "No"?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will give me the information, I will make inquiries.
    Mr. James Griffiths: Can my hon. Friend give any indication whether the number of empty journeys run now is greater or less than before the war?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: It may be greater than before the war because now we have to carry out urgent war jobs which are essential in the national interest. During peace time there are many empty journeys. Every operator knows the phrase "a lost journey."
    Mr. A. Edwards: Is my hon. Friend not aware that many hauliers throughout the country are complaining of wasted journeys and that a haulier carrying loaded cases from Liverpool to Scotland,

    825
    is not allowed to pick up available empty cases for return load, while at the same time empty lorries are sent from England to carry these crates to English ports? There is a tremendous waste of transport hours and will the hon. Gentleman inquire into it?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I am inquiring into it every day. It is not in the public interest to carry goods by road if they can better travel by rail or canal.
    Captain Stricklandasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he is now in a position to explain the uneconomic use by his department of seven lorries sent empty from London to Warrington on 5th February, involving 1,500 unloaded vehicle miles and of two six-ton lorries sent from London during that week on a round journey involving 822 unloaded vehicle miles.
    Mr. Nod-Baker: On 5th, 6th and 7th February, about 150 vehicles were sent from London to Warrington to help in clearing a heavy congestion of traffic. Outward loads were not available for all the vehicles; each of the six vehicles, belonging to O.N. Transport Company, Limited, and A. E. Taylor and Company, ran about 200 unloaded miles. One vehicle was loaded from Warrington to Birmingham with heavy packing cases, at the request of a Government Department. This movement was wrongly represented as urgent; arrangements have now been made for such packing cases to be dumped locally until they can be sent as back loads or by rail. The two six-ton lorries sent to Widnes were also engaged on urgent clearance work, and no outward loads were to be found. On their return to London they were sent to Cambridge; in their subsequent movements there was some avoidable empty running, due to the misunderstanding of instructions.
    Captain Strickland: Is the Minister aware that these vehicles were sent to Cambridge on urgent business, and were expected to be packed up at Cambridge? How was it that they went from Cambridge empty, on to Bishops Stortford and afterwards to Epping empty? Is there not a telephone in the Department to see whether there was a load for them?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: They went to Cambridge, in accordance with the usual practice, to collect potatoes. In Cambridge, owing to a misunderstanding, the driver went to the wrong office, and the office did not know that the vehicles had come from London and thought they were on ordinary business, to be operated in the ordinary way. We are carrying thousands of tons of potatoes every week from Cain-bridge, and occasionally a slip-up of this kind must happen.

    Warning Signs
    Sir Richard Wellsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether, in view of the fact the notice of "Major road ahead" is, owing to the high speeds of modern lorries and motor-cars, not sufficient protection to the public, he will instruct local authorities to erect warning signs on main roads where they cross a secondary road, especially where the crossing is blind.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I regret that I do not think it would be wise to adopt my hon. Friend's proposal to erect warning signs on main roads where they cross a secondary road. Accidents at such cross-roads will be most effectively prevented if drivers entering or crossing a main road from a secondary road remember that it is their responsibility to exercise all necessary care in so doing, and where "Major Road Ahead" signs exist, to comply strictly with the directions which the signs give. The drivers' sense of responsibility might be weakened, if the right of way of main road traffic were not fully maintained.
    Mr. Stokes: Will my hon. Friend have the attention of the military authorities particularly drawn to what he has said?

    Haulaģe Scheme
    Major Lyonsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (1) in view of the complaints that have been made in connection with the operation of the Road Haulage Scheme of his Department, what steps have been, or are being, taken to consult with the road haulage industry through the Standing Joint Committee of the national organisations so as to effect improvements;
    (2) what action he has taken in consequence of the representations of the Standing Joint Committee of the National

    827
    Hauliers' Organisations alleging waste and inefficient running in the operation of the Government Road Haulage Scheme.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Soon after the road haulage organisation began its work, the Standing Joint Committee, acting on the suggestion of my Noble Friend, set up consultative panels which are available for the discussion of any matter connected with the organisation. The panels meet at the request of either party. In addition, a local representative of the Standing Joint Committee attends a monthly meeting of the road haulage organisation officials in each area and division of the country. In these meetings the local working of the organisation is discussed. Useful discussion covering a number of matters, including methods of operation, have recently been held under these arrangements, and action has followed on the points raised.
    Major Lyons: Is it not a fact that the trade organisations themselves have given case after case in which there has been waste of money? Is the Department taking any steps to meet this position?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: No, Sir. As I understand it, the organisations have made general allegations, such as are too frequently made in this House. When the details are given we always inquire, and usually we find a perfectly satisfactory explanation.
    Major Lyonsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport, how many persons now or formerly connected with the firm of Transport Services, Limited, are, or have been, in positions under the Road Haulage Scheme of his Department and the number salaried thereunder; and what number are in receipt of remuneration from that firm whilst holding such position in the scheme.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I am obtaining the information for which my hon. and gallant Friend has asked, and will write to him as soon as possible.

  OXFORD LAUNDRY ZONING SCHEME
  Mr. Hoggasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport to what other areas the principle of the Oxford Laundry Zoning Scheme now
  828
  applies and what are the schemes concerned.
  Mr. Bowles: On a point of Order. As I gave notice to raise this matter on the Adjournment, is it in Order for the hon. Member to ask a Question about it?
  Mr. Speaker: The Question has passed the Table and is therefore in Order.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: The principle of the Oxford Laundry Scheme, namely, that only one laundry serves each zone, is applied in Swansea, Cardiff, Newport, and many smaller places. In a number of other places, for example, Tamworth, Lichfield and Rochester, the laundries make no deliveries at all.

  ARMED FORCES (POST-WAR RECRUITMENT)
  Mr. Bellengerasked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government have given consideration to the recruitment of personnel for the Armed Forces in the post-war period; and whether he has any statement to make.
  The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): These problems are being closely studied and the necessary measures will be announced in due course when it is clearer what our requirements and what the conditions of service in the Armed Forces will be after the defeat of Germany and Japan.
  Mr. Bellenger: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Army Council are asking for volunteers among officers and other ranks at the present time without giving any indication of the post-war conditions and terms of service, and does he realise that if the Government want a post-war Army they must disclose their proposals very quickly, for the National Service Act will not be sufficient after we have defeated Germany?
  Mr. Attlee: I do not know the point my hon. Friend has made. Perhaps he will put it to the Secretary of State for War.

  ANTI-AIRCRAFT FIRE (CIVILIAN CASUALTIES, COMPENSATION)
  Sir W. Smithersasked the Prime Minister to which Ministry application should be made for compensation in the case of a British civilian killed by an anti-aircraft shell.
  Mr. Attlee: If the fatal injury is caused by an anti-aircraft shell fired in combating the enemy or in repelling an imagined attack by the enemy, application should be made to the Ministry of Pensions, and in other cases to the Service Department concerned.
  Sir W. Smithers: Is it the policy of His Majesty's Government to pay compensation for civilians who are unfortunately killed by our own anti-aircraft shells without paying regard to the responsibilities of the individual and without judging each case on its merits?
  Mr. Attlee: Compensation is paid under the Personal Injuries (Emergency Provisions) Act.

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY

    Copper (Empire Production)
    Sir H. Williams asked the Minister of Supply what percentage of the copper supplies of the United Kingdom were drawn during the year ended 1943 from Empire countries; and what is the estimated percentage during 1944.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. Peat): The proportion from Empire countries in 1943 was 62 per cent. and it is estimated that the proportion in 1944 will be between 70 and 73 per cent.

    Convalescent Homes (Requisitioning)
    Mr. Rhys Daviesasked the Minister of Supply why his Department requisitioned certain premises, of which he has been informed; whether he considered, before doing so, the beneficent work done there; and when they will be returned to their owners.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. Sandys): In order to accommodate workmen engaged on certain very urgent work, it was unfortunately necessary to requisition for a short time the two convalescent homes to which my hon. Friend refers. One of these has now been released. The other will likewise be handed back before very long.
    Mr. Davies: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the excellent work done by convalescent homes in restoring people to health?
    Mr. Sandys: I fully appreciate that it is generally undesirable to requisition premises of this kind. It was only done because of urgent necessity.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Fish Distribution
    Mr. Leslieasked the Minister of Food whether he has considered the petition from the Heighington Women's Institute and others, drawing his attention to the fact that there has been no fish in Heighington since Good Friday 1940; and what action will he take to see that this village of over 1,000 people shall be no longer deprived of fish supplies.
    The Minister of Food (Colonel Llewellin): Yes, Sir. The only supplier in in the village closed through lack of support early in 1940 and I presume that between that time and September 1941—the end of the qualifying period for allocation to fishmongers and fish-friers—fish was obtained from nearby towns. I doubt whether I should be justified in depriving traders in these towns of a part of their supplies to enable a shop to be re-opened in this village.
    Mr. Leslie: Is the Minister aware that the reply given to the people of the village was that it was because the man who formerly supplied fish had died? As a man is now available, why should the people of this village have to go to Darlington and other places for fish? Surely when a man is available he ought to get the available supplies.
    Colonel Llewellin: The allocation of fish is made in sub-zones throughout the country and this village is in the Darlington district sub-zone. It is quite true that if there had been a fishmonger or a fish frier there at the datum period the village would have got its supplies of fish. If my hon. Friend would like to discuss it with me and there really is a good case for opening a fish shop in this village, Which will mean depriving other traders of some of their supplies, I will look into it.
    Mr. Hiģģsasked the Minister of Food if he is aware of the shortage of fish supplies in the Birmingham district; and what steps he is taking to increase these supplies.
    Colonel Llewellin: I am investigating this matter and will write to my hon. Friend shortly.
    Mr. Hiģģs: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that the fish famine in Birmingham is more acute than ever and that the zoning system acts very unfairly?
    Colonel Llewellin: I would not call it a fish famine. Unfortunately in the last month Birmingham has not got its full allocation, and I am looking into it with a view to remedying it. In November, however, it got 2 per cent. more than its allocation.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Is not the situation due to the fact that the Government have pursued the wrong industrial policy and have transferred hundreds of people to Birmingham instead of bringing work to the people?
    Mr. Bowles: What is a fish frier supposed to do with his fat, when he cannot use it owing to fish not being available?
    Colonel Llewellin: That is a different question.
    Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Does not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman recognise that it is now necessary to reorganise the zoning scheme in view of the fact that many areas cannot get supplies of fish and that advantages obtain in other areas? Cannot the scheme be related to mouths to be fed?
    Colonel Llewellin: That is what the scheme is based on. The supplies are distributed on a population basis according to the number of sugar registrations in each district. It is impossible with the pressure on our inland transport to get rid of the zoning scheme.
    Mr. McGovern: Is the Minister aware that almost every month Glasgow Health Department give a list of hundreds of tons of fish destroyed in Glasgow, and will he look into it?
    Colonel Llewellin: I would certainly like to look into that and perhaps my hon. Friend will give me particulars.
    Sir William Wayland: Would it not be better to return to distribution by the wholesalers who, before the Food Ministry undertook this work, were efficiently distributing fish all over the country?

    Palm Oil Imports
    Mr. Wootton-Daviesasked the Minister of Food what prices f.o.b. are paid by his Department for palm oil imported into this country from British West Africa, French West Africa and the Belgian Congo, respectively.
    Colonel Liewellin: I regret that I do not consider that it is in the national interest to disclose the particulars asked for by my hon. Friend.

    Oranges, Distribution (Ration Books)
    Mr. Thorneasked the Minister of Food if he is aware of the manner in which oranges are being distributed; that the food offices are being given a lot of extra work because people tear off the back pages of their books and then call for another voucher; and if he can stop this practice and prevent some people getting more oranges than they are entitled to.
    Colonel Llewellin: A number of applications have been received by some food offices for replacement of the back pages of ration books. Unauthorised defacement of a ration book is an offence under the Food Rationing (General Provisions) Order. Replacements are not made automatically. Applicants are required to sign a declaration giving details of the loss and, as far as possible, these are verified before replacement. A replacement fee of one shilling is charged.
    Mr. Mathers: Would it be possible for the Minister to allocate some sugar to Scotland in order that the marmalade oranges available could be made into marmalade?

    Rationed Foods (Catering Establishments)
    Mr. E. Walkdenasked the Minister of Food whether he can provide an estimate of the percentage ratio of each of the rationed foods which are consumed by the public off the ration in all catering establishments as distinct from the normal domestic supplies issued through a ration book.
    Colonel Llewellin: As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Walkden: While thanking my right hon. and gallant Friend for the information he is about to give, may I ask whether it will include food provided for school feeding, Civil Defence canteens, and, in fact, every form of catering provided off the ration?
    Colonel Llewellin: Yes, Sir, every form. It includes all industrial canteens, British Restaurants, ordinary restaurants, and even the dining room of the House of Commons.
    Following is the statement:
    The approximate percentages are:

    Per cent.

    Bacon

    …

    6

    Preserves

    …

    7

    Cheese

    …

    7

    Butter

    …

    7

    Cooking Fats

    …

    9

    Margarine

    …

    10

    Meat

    …

    10

    Sugar

    …

    10

    Tea

    …

    11

    Points Foods

    …

    13

    The figures include food consumed by residents in hotels, etc., who have to surrender their coupons, but it is not possible to estimate the proportion of the above percentages which is accounted for in this way.

    KENDAL-PRESTON CANAL
    Mr. J. Hendersonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether, in view of present transport difficulties, he will give an assurance that he will not allow the Kendal to Preston canal to be closed.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: My Noble Friend does not propose to close this canal during the present emergency.

  MEDICAL POLICY ASSOCIATION (PAMPHLET)
  Mr. Manderasked the Minister of Information whether his attention has been called to a bulletin issued by a body calling itself the Medical Policy Association; and whether he will take steps to counter this defamatory form of propaganda with its anti-Semitic views and personal attacks.
  The Minister of Information (Mr. Brendan Bracken): Yes, Sir. The complaints in this pamphlet against individuals said to be in control of international finance might have been lifted from a speech by the German Führer, But as the anti-Semitic ravings of the latter have never made any impression on the British people, I think that the Ministry of Information may be forgiven if they regard the bulletin mentioned by my hon. Friend as requiring no counteracting propaganda from them.
  Dr. Morgan: Will the Minister also consider the desirability of asking the Home Office once again to see whether the four medical rats using this organisation cannot be prosecuted?
  Mr. Bracken: I do not know what the meaning of "four medical rats" is, but I daresay that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will read HANSARD tomorrow and will pay proper respect to my hon. Friend's suggestion.
  Dr. Howitt: Is the Minister aware that this association in no way represents the medical profession?
  Mr. Bracken: I am certain that this association does not represent such an honourable and distinguished profession. I think it is a great pity that some action cannot be taken to prevent these people prostituting the name of a great profession.

  ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS (GROUND RENTS)
  Sir H. Williamsasked the hon. and gallant Member for New Forest and Christchurch, as representing the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, what increase has taken place in the income of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners derived from ground rents in the last 30 years.
  Major Mills (for Ecclesiastical Commissioners): Comparison of the Commissioners' Accounts shows that the amount received by them in ground rents had increased, from 1912 to 1942, by 127,953. The accounts for the year, to 31st October last, are not yet complete. This increase arises from new building development during the period, and from the purchase of further ground rents as an investment.
  Sir H. Williams: May I ask whether the ecclesiastical members of the Commission, who sometimes make speeches on ground rents, are familiar with those facts?
  Major Mills: I do not think my hon. Friend will expect me to answer that question, in regard to speeches which I have not read or heard.

  ITALY (LOCAL LABOUR)
  Mr. Bartle Bullasked the Secretary of State for War if he will approach the Italian Government in that part of Italy already occupied by the Allies with a view to mobilising man-power for the purpose of road building and other work which is essential for the prosecution of the war in Italy and some of which is now done by British and American troops.
  The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Arthur Henderson): As no doubt my hon. Friend is aware, Italian territory occupied by the Allies falls into two parts, that portion which is under the control of Military Government and that portion which, since 11th February, 1944, has been administered by the Italian Government, and where the Allied Control Commission functions. In the area of Military Government, the head of the Allied Military Government has authority to make the necessary arrangements for the use of local labour for suitable military purposes. As regards the latter area, the Supreme Allied Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean Theatre, is also the President of the Allied Control Commission and in that capacity he has authority to make the necessary arrangements with the Italian Government for the utilisation of Italian man-power for suitable military purposes. According to such information as has been received, labour is being so obtained.
  Mr. Bull: Is the Minister aware that the troops are not fully cognisant of what he has just said because, to use an Army phrase, they see dozey idle Italians standing around while British and American soldiers do the work? Will he see that the Italians do a little more?
  Mr. Rhys Davies: In view of the fact that we are supposed to bring freedom to the Italian people, may I take it that His Majesty's Government will not use
  836
  powers of compulsory labour? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]
  Mr. Henderson: I can assure my hon. Friend that anything that is being done by His Majesty's Government is justified by the provisions of international law.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Arthur Greenwood: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he has any statement to make about the course of Business on the next Sitting Day?
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): On the next Sitting Day we shall ask the House to consider an Amendment, which is expected to be received from another place, to the Supreme Court of Judicature (Amendment) Bill—I understand that it is not an Amendment of very great substance—and the Motion relating to the Coal (Charges) (Amendment) (No. 1) Order.
Perhaps I might also mention that at the end of the Debate to-day on the War and International Situation, we shall ask the House to take the Report and Third Reading of the Income Tax {Officers and Employments) Bill.
Mr. Georģe Griffiths: Are we taking the Education Bill also on the next Sitting Day?
Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir, we are.

NAVY (SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1943)
Estimate presented, of the further Sum required to be voted for the Navy for the year ending on 31st March, 1944 [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 48.]
NAVY ESTIMATES, 1944
Estimates presented, for the Navy for the financial year 1944 [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 49.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS
That they have agreed to—
Supreme Court of Judicature (Amendment) Bill,
Disabled Persons (Employment) Bill, with Amendments,
That they have passed a Bill, intituled "An Act to render legal the attachment of certain Indian States to other Indian States." [India (Attachment of States) Bill [Lords].

SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (AMENDMENT) BILL
Lords Amendments to be considered upon the next Sitting Day.
DISABLED PERSONS (EMPLOYMENT) BILL
Lords Amendments to be considered upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed [Bill 14.]
INDIA (ATTACHMENT OF STATES) BILL [Lords]
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered:
"That the Proceedings on the Income Tax (Offices and Employment) Bill be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[Mr. Eden.]
Mr. Bowles: On a point of Order. May I move the following Motion:
"That the proceedings on any Motion for the Adjournment of the House moved by a Minister of the Crown be exempted at this day's Sitting from the—"
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member cannot move a Motion as a point of Order. This is not the place for moving it.
Mr. Bowles: Before the Patronage Secretary moves "That this House do now adjourn" may I not move this Motion?
Mr. Speaker: No, it is not on the Order Paper and I could not accept such a Motion at short notice.
Mr. Bowles: On a point of Order. I am sure it is within the recollection of the House that the Leader of the House, if he thinks in the course of the Debate that it might be desirable to extend the Debate for two hours, does so without any notice to the House at all and without any notice on the Order Paper.
Mr. Speaker: That can only be done by a Minister of the Crown, not by a Private Member.
Mr. Bowles: Will the Leader of the House see his way to move a Motion similar to that which he moved yesterday to extend the time for two hours?
Mr. Eden: We have already passed the Motion on the Paper which deals with the Business for to-day.
Mr. Silverman: Is there anything in the Motion on Business which we have passed, which necessarily prevents the Leader of the House, if he should think fit, now, or at a later stage, from moving to extend for two hours the time devoted to consideration of the war situation?
Mr. Speaker: Only one such Motion may be moved each day.

WAR AND INTERNATIONAL SITUATION
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. James Stuart.]
Sir Edward Grigg: The Debate to-day and yesterday has a double-barrelled character. It is dealing both with what is called strategy and with what is called grand strategy. By strategy, I mean simply the operations of war, by grand strategy our policy in international affairs, both as regards the war and as regards the settlement we have in view after the war. The Prime Minister covered both very extensively in his speech yesterday and I should not have much to say upon the course of operations—since I do not think this House is really in a position to judge—were it not for two speeches which were made yesterday, and on which I should like to make some very brief comment. The first was by the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) who is not in his place to-day. He complained that the Prime Minister had not given us any idea of the plans by which he proposed to win the war. That really seemed to me an impossible demand to make to any Prime Minister or Minister of Defence in war-time. In the first place, the House of Commons has not the technical equipment to deal with operations. In the second place, it must be obvious that discussion of any plan would not only be in the presence of this House but in the presence of the enemy. So that seems to me a quite impossible demand to make. The Duke of Wellington, I think, would have been very much surprised if the House of Commons, at the time when Napoleon escaped from Elba, had asked him how he proposed to deal with the situation. We are facing quite as critical a situation at the moment and I suggest that operations are best left in the hands of those responsible for them.
It is true that this House is responsible for the character of the Government and the system of the higher direction of the war which the Government sets up. That is the business of the House. I gave my opinion on that subject two years ago, and neither the Prime Minister nor the majority of my friends in the House agreed. It is no use going back to that now that two years have passed. I wish only to say that events in the course of these two years have not given

855
me any reason to alter the opinions I then expressed. We must face the facts that conditions have changed entirely. Planning is now an inter-Allied business. We are combining our plans with two great Allies, one in America and one in the East of Europe, and also with another in the Far East and a number of other Allies. Immensely complex machinery has been set up, and I do not see how this House can do very much to criticise or improve that machinery, which, so far as one can see, is working admirably. There is only one thing I would like to add on that point. I am sure every Member in this House welcomed what the Prime Minister said about General Eisenhower and General Alexander. The way in which the staff work of the two great Allies has been not only combined but interwoven, is a very remarkable achievement. It reflects enormous credit both on General Eisenhower and General Alexander, and, for my part, I believe the Rouse may have confidence in the fact that operations here and in the Mediterranean are being conducted at the very top by generals with such a record behind them.
There was one other speech dealing with operations on which I should like to comment. It was the speech of the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson) who also, I am sorry to say, is not in his place to-day. He is the elder Cato of this House, the moral censor, and for my part I always welcome the outspokenness, candour and single-mindedness of his interventions in Debate. But I really think that he was confused in what he said yesterday. He seemed to be balancing military maxims and moral principles. He said, for instance, that it was a military maxim to attack the armed forces of the enemy. That is quite true but he seemed to forget another military maxim which is as important and as firmly established. That is to attack the rear communications and supply lines of the enemy. That is precisely what we are doing in this attack on Germany, her centres of production and centres of communication.
But I find myself very much in disagreement with him on the question of moral principle. He passed, by a transition which I do not quite understand, from the military plane to the moral plane, and said that the bombing of Germany
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was, in his opinion, not justified morally. He developed that theme at considerable length. It is true that the distinction which civilisation has tried to draw for many centuries between combatants and non-combatants, between armed forces and civilians, has become very thin indeed, and indeed is almost obliterated. I remember early in the last war, when the Germans first began to bomb London—in the very mild way of those days—being very much puzzled on reflecting that if the Germans dropped a bomb on the War Office and killed Lord Kitchener they were conducting a legitimate operation of war, but that if the bomb hit Downing Street and killed Mr. Asquith that was an atrocity. I am bound to say that I did not see that that distinction was quite easy to maintain, since both were equally active in making war on Germany. I also reflected, and I think the House will agree, that it is very difficult to maintain the view that the blockade, which is our historical weapon, makes any distinction between armed forces and civilians. It attacks civilians first. Indeed, it has all through the history of war, and, unfortunately, as war becomes more complex, more totalitarian, it is a terrible fact that the line between combatants and non-combatants is obliterated altogether. That is a terrible fact about modern war. But what is the moral principle to be drawn from it? Surely, the moral principle is to end the war as quickly as possible. That is the most humane course, the only right course, and I would say to my hon. Friend if he were here that I do not think that in the weapons which this country is using to defeat its principal enemies it has any reason whatever to fear the moral judgment of the nations.
The Prime Minister paid a tribute to the part which all the men of these Islands have been playing in this war—to the Navy, which has had a marvellous record, to the Merchant Navy, which is really now a combatant force, to the Army which, after all, has shown that it is better than its German enemy in many fields already, to the Royal Air Force, which, in conducting the assault on Germany, is showing military superiority to the enemy and upsetting his military operations. I do not think that tribute could have been better timed. I regret one other thing about the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Mossley. He

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revived the legend that the German Army was not really beaten in the last war. That has always been Hitler's speciality—always—and it is simply not true. It is the legend on which the whole of this ghastly war-machine has been reconstructed. To prove that it is not true, no more true than most of the other legends on which Hitler bases his astonishing view of history, I would quote what the leaders of fie German Army said at that time. Hindenburg, writing at the beginning of October, 1918, to Prince Max of Baden, who had just become German Chancellor, said:
"The gravity of the military situation admits of no delay."
I underline those words, "the military situation"—not be it noted the situation on the home front in Germany. Ludendorff said—
"I want to save my army."
To save his army from what? From the home front in Germany? Certainly not, It was to save his army from better armies that were knocking it to pieces in the field. That is the truth about the last war. I agree with my hon. Friend that we have to prove ourselves, man for man, the equals of the Germans in fighting, and I do not believe any race in the world will ever prove better. We have to prove ourselves the equal in fighting quality, and the better in organisation and equipment, and I believe that all our forces are doing that at the present moment. Surely at this moment, when our forces, and the nation as a whole, are facing one of the most critical and momentous periods in our war history, when we have before us a task far more serious, I think, than most people realise—surely this is a moment in which we should do nothing but bid "God speed" to our splendid lighting men and feel confident that they will show the quality which they have always displayed in our past history.
So much for operations. I now come to the broader subject of what I call grand strategy, by which I mean our international policy both in the war and in dealing with the peace settlement towards which we are working. A brilliant speech was made, among others on that subject, by my hon. Friend the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn). I think everybody will agree that his speech was an argument for university representation, which I hope
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will not be thrown away upon those who are now considering that question. A Member who can make a speech of that kind is a tremendous asset to the House of Commons, and it is quite possible that Members of that type might not find it so easy to get into the House of Commons if we abolished university representation.
I fully accept the three principles which he laid down in regard to our foreign policy. He said, in the first place, that we must assert ourselves to the utmost to ensure that we had the trust of other nations, to prove that we were trustworthy. The second was that the whole Empire must be behind us in our foreign policy. The third was that we must maintain an equal status with Soviet Russia and the United States of America. I could not agree more, since with the help of some friends of mine inside and outside the House, I had the temerity last year to publish a book which really consisted largely of that argument. I do not believe the world has much doubt about our good intentions. I do not believe it ever had. I do not believe it has much doubt about our devotion to high principles. I do not believe it has any doubt about the liberal aspect of our policy, that is to say, that we want to stand for progressive and liberal movement so far as we can do so in the world without interfering in the internal affairs of other countries—which is an essential part of liberalism, and without which there cannot be continuous or sound foreign policy. The difficulty is not that the world believes that our intentions are not good. Moral reprobation, moral exhortation, have been our greatest exports over the past 25 years. When all other exports were falling, they rose every year.
Mr. Boothby: Was it not the Liberal policy of this country during the nineteenth century, to foment rebellion against tyranny in many countries in Europe?
Sir E. Griģģ: No, Sir, but I am not going to be drawn away into historical argument on those lines. I am quite prepared to argue the point with my hon. Friend, but I do not want to keep the House too long, and it would be really going off my present point. What has been our difficulty? Our difficulty has been lack of principle in

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making sure that our power was equal to the engagements which we undertook. That has been one of our besetting sins—adopting in international procedure the habit, which is condemned in private life, of issuing "stumer" cheques which will not be honoured when they are presented at the bank. The other condition in this country which has certainly militated against continuity in foreign policy, and, therefore, against the trust of foreign nations in us, is the fact that more and more in recent years foreign policy has been drawn into the arena of party discussion, and that each of the parties seems to be anxious above all, in addition to their domestic controversies, to prove that it has a better foreign policy than the others. Let me deal, in the first place, with the question which I have described simply as issuing a "stumer" cheque. Does the House remember—this is a very recent issue—that we guaranteed Czechoslovakia after the Munich surrender? What use was that to Czechoslovakia? We proceeded to guarantee Poland and Rumania. What was the use of that to Poland and Rumania? High principles, certainly; but a "stumer" cheque all the same. Let us bear that in mind as we proceed into a still more difficult era.
I remember a Debate in this House in July, 1939. The only possibility of our honouring engagements we made in that spring was for us to come to terms with another great military Power in the East of Europe. Russia offered us a military alliance. The House debated that subject in July, 1939. I remember the Prime Minister getting up in his place in our old Chamber, and arguing strongly and eloquently, as he can, for the acceptance of that offer. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary also made a speech in the same terms in that Debate. How did we come not to accept the offer? I think for two reasons. First, we were perplexed and embarrassed by the difficulties made by the States neighbouring on Russia. The other thing was the suspicion of Russia, which could not be overcome. I remember an hon. Friend of mine—whom I shall not name—getting up and saying that the offer was a trap, set for us by Russia, which we should at all costs avoid. Looking back at what has happened since, I wonder whether it would not have been wise to be more realistic and
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to avoid making engagements which we had no prospect whatever of honouring.
The Prime Minister and many Members have spoken about Poland. I agree that Poland in this matter is the test case. Like, I am sure, all other Members, I feel that we cannot pay too high a tribute to Polish endurance and heroism in this struggle. The Poles have done magnificently in the underground resistance movement in Poland—I do not believe there has been a single Polish Quisling—and they have done magnificently fighting by our side elsewhere. There is nothing that could be said that would be too high praise for the gallant Polish people. But the Polish people, like another great people nearer home, have one great fault, an inveterate historical memory. They have much excuse. Their history is a terrible history: all the same, I think it would be wise for them to remember at the present time that history is many-sided; that every nation has its own version, and is quite convinced that that version is the only right one. It has been said that you can prove anything from statistics: you can also prove almost anything, if you set about it, from history. We, who have some experience of difficult international questions, inside these islands and inside the Empire, have shown a wise capacity for forgetting. Take our relations with Scotland. Two hundred years ago, at the time of "the 45", our relations with Scotland and our treatment of Scotland were nothing of which we had reason to be proud, but we have managed to forget and harmonize them. [HON. MEMBERS: "Scotland has not."] Scotland is one of the small countries with an inveterate memory. The English people have been more tolerant and more ready to forget, not only the harm which they have done to other peoples, which is easy to forget, but also the harm which other peoples have done them. The same is true of Canada; the same is true of South Africa. We have been wise in forgetting these things, and in cultivating friendly relations.
We have, just across the Irish Sea, another nation with an inveterate historical memory. I do not think anybody can say that that nation stands higher in the world at present because of its insistence on those memories. From all this, I should say that Eire and Poland are both a proof that too clear, too vivid, too intense a memory for historical events

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is fatal to its possessors. That is a thing to be borne in mind at the present moment, especially in regard to this matter of frontiers. I am not going to talk about frontiers in detail, because in many cases I do not regard frontiers as the main issue. History will prove almost anything in regard to frontiers, as in everything else, and on this matter, if you are going to get a suitable settlement compromise between people who really want to get on together is indispensable. That is essentially the course we have to pursue in many parts of the world.
On frontiers, I would most warmly endorse what was said by the Prime Minister, who spoke words of wisdom. What matters is not frontiers; what matters to us is a question of principle. It is the independence of Poland. That is what we guaranteed. By independence, I mean a country being strong, conducting its own affairs, choosing its own form of Government, able to look to the future with security, and based on really strong foundations, which Poland has never yet been in all its history. There is no question whatever that it is our duty to make perfectly plain to the Russian Government where we stand on this principle—the independence of Poland and the independence of all small countries who have been, and wish to be again, nationally independent. I cannot believe that in this matter we are really fundamentally divided from Marshal Stalin. It is remarkable that in the papers to-day there is published a message of his to the Red Army, in which he used these words—important and remarkable words at the present moment:
"It is this community of fundamental interests which leads to the cementing of the fighting alliance between the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics, Britain and the United States of America."
What is the most fundamental interest that, in fact, unites us? Surely it must be to work on the same principles in regard to the independence and status of the smaller nations. The most fertile cause of trouble between great Powers is the way they behave to smaller Powers. All history shows that. There is no interest uniting us and Russia more fundamentally than that of arriving at common principles on this question of the treatment of the weaker Powers. I said that I could not believe that Marshal Stalin was guided by any different
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principles from ours. This is what he said himself, with his usual clarity of language, in his report to the meeting held an the 26th anniversary of the Soviet Revolution:
"Russia, together with her Allies, must grant the liberated peoples of Europe the full right of freedom to determine their own form of Government."
On his own part, that was no new declaration. At the 25th meeting of the anniversary of the Soviet Revolution, he said:
"The programme of action of the Anglo-Soviet-American coalition includes the right of every nation to arrange its own affairs as it wishes."
That convinces me that on this matter we need not fear a fundamental difference of principle. I hope that that is the case. We owe very much to Marshal Stalin. I, personally, am convinced that victory in this war would have been impossible for our cause but for the part which Russia has played. I am also convinced that Russia could not have played her part but for the supremacy established from 1929 onwards by Marshal Stalin. Had he not, through the method of terror, liquidated many of his enemies Russia would have been reduced to impotence at this period. It was Marshal Stalin's five-year plan, the development of natural resources, the development of factories, the development of mechanisation, in which millions of Russians have been trained, which have enabled Russia to roll back the German Armies and to achieve what she has done. I believe that he will crown that great achievement by showing that he is absolutely at one with us on this principle of freedom and independence for the smaller States of Europe.
I spoke about the danger of issuing "stumer" cheques and the great importance of making certain that our engagements did not run beyond our power to honour them. That, I think, is absolutely fundamental. After all, since we are not, and do not seek to be, a dominating Power, since the basis on which we work normally is diplomacy, the endeavour to harmonise the interests of nations—a process which I think has been unduly denigrated as appeasement—we can achieve those things only by trying to get our Allies and friends together on a basis of principle. That is our great rôle in Europe. There is one other thing that

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we must remember, and that is that we cannot have a continuity of the trust and confidence of other people unless what we say in one year we honour in another, or if our foreign policy comes into the arena of party dissension in this House.
I would ask the House with great humility to let me tell them of an experience of my awn in this matter which goes back 23 or 24 years, but which, nevertheless, has the virtue of being a first-hand experience. I became private secretary to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon (Mr. Lloyd George) in the spring of 1921, and I continued to be his private secretary until the fall of the Coalition in October, 1922. My duties related entirely to imperial and foreign affairs, and in the course of them I was naturally thrown into very close and continuous contact with the Foreign Office and particularly with Sir Eyre Crowe, the Permanent Under-Secretary, one of the wisest of those who have held that most responsible position. I went to every International Conference that was held by the right hon. Gentleman, the Father of the House. My business was not to take any part in the Conferences, as hon. Members will understand; it was to keep in touch with all the foreign members attending, not only with the principals but with the smaller ones, and I got to know most of them extremely well. In this capacity I think I was able to know what they really felt about this country. One thing that was very marked was that as from the spring of 1921 to the autumn of 1922 the influence of this country grew smaller and smaller and, what this country said at international conferences mattered less and less.
Why was that? The reason was that its foreign policy was constantly being discussed with the utmost dissension in this House, and foreign nations were being told by a very large number of Members of this House that the Government in no way represented the opinion of the country. That was my experience. An hon. Member opposite shakes his head, but let me give him the example of the Cannes Conference held at the end of 1921. At that conference we renewed our guarantee to the French of their eastern frontier and we managed to achieve a settlement of the reparations question, which was accepted not only by the
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French but by the Germans. The conference collapsed. Why? It collapsed mainly because the French had been persuaded that the Government of this country would not be able to carry out its guarantee. [Interruption.] That is exactly what I complain of. It is always one side which is right and the other which is wrong. I beg the hon. Member to remember that his historical memory may possibly be extremely misleading.
After that conference M. Briand fell and the affairs of Europe went to another conference at Genoa, where relations were still more strained, and in spite of every effort to arrive at a settlement the only understanding that was reached as the result of this conference was one between Germany and Russia. That was the only achievement of the Genoa Conference. The assassination of Rathenau followed shortly afterwards.
Let me give hon. Members an example of a case of dissension in this House which led to what I regard as an absolute breach of faith to a very gallant Allied country. In the autumn of 1922, when Turkey, under her great leader, Kemal Ataturk, denounced the Treaty of Sèvres, the Greeks came to France and to us and asked whether they would be allowed to defend Constantinople. They said: "We have lost our possessions in Asia Minor, but we can hold Constantinople. We have good divisions at Chatalfa, and if you will allow us to hold Constantinople we can stop the Turks and arrive at a solution on the lines that the Allies have been backing all the time." We consulted France, and the French pointed out that under the terms of our agreement with Turkey, Constantinople was in the occupation of Allied troops and was neutral, and therefore we could not allow one of the combatants to take over its defence. That seemed to be an unanswerable argument, and we had to present it to the Greeks. The Greeks, in reply, simply said "We accept that, but we assume that the same condition applies to Turkey?" We assured them that the same condition applied to both combatants in this quarrel. But what happened? The Coalition fell and the Government in this country was changed. I do not know how it happened, for I had ceased to have any knowledge of what was going on, but it is a fact that a very few weeks after we had given that solemn undertaking to the Greeks the

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Turks were in Constantinople. That is a terrible example of the way in which you may betray the trust which your own friends and allies place in you.
Mr. Huģh Lawson: Is the hon. Member suggesting that this House is not the right place in which to discuss the foreign policy of the country?
Sir E. Griģģ: I will answer that question if the hon. Member will give me time. It is perfectly clear that we are entering upon a period of very great dissension and controversy in domestic policy. I do not know how matters will turn out, but I think the House will agree with me that we are not going to escape very intense controversy on all kinds of domestic policies. Who knows what the effect of such controversy will be on the Government? At the present moment I am only concerned with the effect on foreign policy. In that connection we recall the terrible story of our relations with France in a similar period, 22 or 23 years ago, and I sincerely hope that we shall not repeat the mistakes which we made at that time.
Speaking of France, I think the whole House will agree that a strong France allied to us is an indispensable factor for European stability. I am sure that we all admire the sacrifice and gallantry of those in the maquis who are now fighting. I sometimes listen to the French broadcasts and I must say they impress me very much. We are also glad to see that the Committee of National Liberation and the institutions set up in Algiers are going from strength to strength and establishing their authority with the resistance movement in France, which is essential. I shall be grateful if the Foreign Secretary will tell us, later in the day, something about the progress of our relations with France and of the new French set-up in Algiers. It would complete the very broad review of international affairs which was given by the Prime Minister. Foreign affairs must be discussed by this House. It is part of its responsibility to discuss them, but it must discuss them with a sense of responsibility, and not with the object of simply trying to prove that one party has a good foreign policy and another has a bad one, or of regarding foreign policy as a stick with which to beat the Government.
Let me remind the House of the achievements of this country. At the beginning of this century we suddenly undertook a tremendous change in our
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foreign policy. Up to the end of the 19th century we had been splendid isolationists and our spendid isolation was based on naval superiority. But at the beginning of this century we entered an entirely new period of ententes and alliances. Those ententes were directed solely towards security. We did not endeavour to tell the nations with whom we were making agreements for the sake of security how we though they ought to conduct their own internal government. We were careful to avoid that because, otherwise, it would have been impossible for us at that time to have had an understanding with Russia and Japan. I think it is very remarkable that during that period, an immensely critical period in our foreign relations, all parties agreed, broadly, on the main lines of our foreign policy. The Liberal Government which came to power in 1905 had been consulted about the foreign policy by the Conservative Government, and took it over. The Conservatives thereafter backed Sir Edward Grey consistently. There was no dissension, and but for that and but for the sense of responsibility shown by the parties and by Members of this House at that time, our position would have been very grave indeed in 1910. I have given the House that example and I hope it will bear it in mind. This House has an immense responsibility for helping the Government to retain the trust of foreign peoples, for helping the Government to promote friendly relations between nations, and for adhering to the principle of non-intervention in other countries' internal affairs. I hope that in the future, when we are entering a period of even greater difficulty, this House, or any House that succeeds it, will rise to the height of its great responsibility.
Mr. Mack: Whatever one may think of the political views of the hon. Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg), I think it will be conceded that we have listened to a very interesting speech both factually and as one giving us considerable food for thought. I would like, if I may, to draw attention to a remark made by the Prime Minister in his speech yesterday in which he warned us, in effect, not to indulge in easy optimism. Generally speaking, I think it would be agreed that whilst two or three months ago there was a general feeling in this House and throughout the country that the war was likely to be

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finished within a reasonable time, there is to-day a hardening of opinion and, those who are au fait in the affairs of this country and of the United Nations seem to think that the war is going to be considerably harder in future than it has been up to now.
A month or two ago there appeared in some of the papers an article giving an account of a statement made by Major General George Strong, chief of the United States military intelligence, in a report sent to Congressmen in America. Reviewing the potential strength of Germany, he issued a very grave warning to this country and to America in regard to that strength. It is significant that only yesterday allusion was made, in the Press, to new rocket guns which the Germans are likely to use, and to which on this occasion General Strong referred as weighing less than a ton and being equal to six field howitzers weighing nine tons a piece. That valuation has not been contested. It may be true that we are faced with a weapon of very considerable potency which may exercise some effect upon the immediate outcome of the war. Secondly, General Strong stated that Germany has raised more than 60 new Divisions in 1943, each with 600 machine guns and 300 heavier guns. Germany has new tanks and guns equal to, or better than anything the Allies possess. He pointed out that the Air Force of Germany, in spite of immense losses was actually stronger than it was in 1939, and, but for the fact that Russia was in the war, it might have been as much as four to five to one against us.
He proceeded to draw a striking contrast of potential labour power by adding that, whereas in 1939 there were 23,000,000 workers engaged in war industry in Germany to-day that figure had been augmented to 35,000,000. The raw material position of Germany was good. They were nearly self sufficient in rubber, there was enough high octane petrol for their Air Force, the food position was better than in the last war, and their heavy industrial rations were greater than in 1939. He concluded that, in spite of the bombing of the Ruhr, in May and June, 1939, the amount of German output which was more or less put out of action was not more than three per cent.
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I would not, with my very limited understanding of these matters, presume to say to the House that this was anything like a correct figure, but I would say to those people who have indulged hitherto in easy optimism, that this "gives us seriously to think." The recent air attacks on this country, though not by any means as formidable as those delivered by us against the enemy, are an indication that the enemy is still powerful and that all our powers of recuperation must be brought to bear, in order to bring the war to a quick and successful conclusion. Personally I believe in the old adage which says: "Pray for sunshine, but always be prepared for rain." I would purposely make the mistake of over-estimating the strength of our enemy, and go so far as to say that, in this war, as the Prime Minister himself indicated, the enemy is still united at home. There seem to be no schisms or cleavages in his internal policy and the various sections of the Army and of the ruling element in Germany are united. If that be so, I think it will be agreed that we cannot, for a single moment, under-estimate the fact that he will fight with tenacity, perhaps even greater than that which he has displayed up to now.
Yesterday, we were treated to a speech by the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern). I regret the hon. Member is not in his place. I was, indeed, very sorry to hear that speech, made by an hon. Gentleman presuming to call himself a Socialist, who in attacking the Nazi system of dictatorship attacked with equal strength the dictator system of Soviet Russia. It is an amazing thing, and one of those old tricks indulged in by people who wish to cast aspersions on the great Soviet Republic. I remember when I was a little boy playing with other youngsters, including some of the little girls of the neighbourhood. One little girl aimed a brick at another child and the brick, unfortunately, went through a window. I happened to be in the line of fire and I bowed so that the brick went over my head. It pays sometimes to be polite. The mother of the girl came to my mother—she was very worried about it—and said, "Your John and our Liz broke a window." I had nothing to do with the breaking of the window, though I was blamed, with the young lady, for that somewhat unconstitutional act. In the same way, the hon. Gentleman couples

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the innocent with the guilty, as if both were parties in the same enterprise. I think it is very wrong in this House to do so. I can only describe the party to which the hon. Gentleman belongs, or at least some Members of it, as political hermaphrodites. They are neither fish, flesh, fowl, nor good red herring, and certainly do not do justice to a party which was, at one time, an important factor in our political life. It is a sad reflection that from those benches we should hear such reactionary utterances.
May I say another word about the attitude of some of the politicians in this House towards Russia? They damn Russia with faint praise. I was at a meeting in the provinces at which a member of another political party stepped on the platform and alleged that I had paid too much regard to the effort of Russia, and intimated that I had, by inference, neglected the great efforts of this country, which of course was not true. He walked out of the meeting with a gesture of contempt, in spite of the fact that the meeting was non-political. I make these statements because there are men, not very friendly to Russia, who are anxious to use their position, so that after the war they will be able to perpetuate the present system of exploitation.
Take the situation of Poland. The Minister of Information has told us that, as far as Poland is concerned, some of their literature and newspapers are not conducive to the successful prosecution of the war and the friendly relationship of our Allies and as a consequence had to be banned. I happen to know, and some of the Press also know, that the Polish Army makes very considerable racial discrimination among their men in this country and a great deal of suspicion must fall upon those responsible for that disgraceful state of affairs. The Polish emigré Government said there certainly had been difficulties, and, as a result certain contacts had been made with military chiefs, but in spite of this, the state of affairs which I have indicated exists, and there are members of the Polish forces in this country who have literally threatened suicide because of the cruel discrimination that has taken place. Do we want to support a country with a Government of that nature? I most certainly would not. Believing, as I think every hon. Member should believe, in the freedom of all nationalities, I would
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say with great deference, that that freedom cannot be rightly granted, unless the Governments of these countries give an indication that they are prepared to act in the spirit of the United Nations and Atlantic Charter.
Far too much solicitude has been shown to that type of Government, just as was the case in the Government of Finland during the early stages of the war, when the Russians were described as barbarians. This remarkable turn of attitude and state of mind cause us to think seriously whether we are actually fighting for the things we say we want. I do not want to use phrases which may perhaps sound allegorical or metaphorical, but we want to dispel some of these warm zephyrs of optimistic illusion and get back to the icy blasts of reality. Take the case of Spain. Here is a Government which is impertinent to Britain and which shows unduly favourable treatment to the Germans. Had they the power, courage, and strength, they would have thrown in their lot against us. Why, now should we manifest to Spain such a tender regard? We should rather take a drastic course and say that Spain should toe the line, and accept all the obligations of strict neutrality.
Some time ago a certain number of articles appeared in "Pravda" and other Russian newspapers which were circulated throughout the world. Many of us said we were alarmed and perturbed by the attitude of Russia, because doubts had been cast upon the veracity of statements made in this country. The Prime Minister is a most fascinating politician. I have always supported him because he has done a fine job of work, and I would not be so churlish, as to take from him because of political differences the great credit which is rightly his due. But persuasion tips his tongue whenever he speaks. Every time he speaks I am almost subdued because of the atmosphere of adoration that surrounds him. When I turn from his almost unrivalled position as a war leader, and pay regard to his post-war mentality, I am somewhat alarmed because I do not believe that pounds, shillings and pence, as the Prime Minister once said, will necessarily condition the amount of post-war reform.
I believe that if this war means anything to us, it is that by the united effort of the nation we can meet the needs of the people of this country. If people

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have the will and the desire they can ensure that money will be a medium of exchange and the servant and not the master of man. But in the present prosecution of the war, when back-benchers get up to speak they are in a very difficult position. After all, we like to know something about the subject of a Debate in which we take part and for very obvious reasons, it is not always possible for the Government to supply vital facts which are withheld from us because they are euphemistically stated to be "against the National interests." When we seek to attack the Government or offer a criticism which is constructive, whether in regard to the prosecution of the war or the social legislation that we feel should be introduced we are handicapped because we are not given all the facts. But within the limit of our somewhat restricted knowledge, I am perturbed. I wonder why this much-vaunted second front has not been given more publicity. The appointment of big military chiefs; their names and various details of their careers have been given, and yet, we have received from the Government benches no clear unequivocal statement of intention as to the second front.
It is obvious that we cannot indicate the location or even the time of it, but I believe that we could re-affirm to the world the fact that we are determined not to regard bombing, effective as it undoubtedly is—and no one appreciates its effectiveness more than Members on this side of the House—as a substitute, nor was it ever meant to be a substitute, for the land operations which must inevitably follow. No one who is wise or intelligent, or even presumes to a little understanding, would under-estimate the enormity of the task which confronts us. The preparations have been made, and every effort should be made by Members of the Government to assure the U.S.S.R. that our intentions are as firm now as ever and, above all, that we respect their great effort. If I may ruminate for a moment and forget the very difficult atmosphere of this House—I always feel terribly impressed by it; I wish I could shake it off but, unfortunately, cannot—I would say that if we think for ourselves, in the spirit of true patriotism, loving our country and believing that, potentially and intrinsically, we are second to no other people in the world, in the character and courage
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of our citizens, we must also never fail to forget the magnificent and unparalleled heroism, over a long period and a wide area, which is being displayed by the Russian people.
Mr. de Rothschild: Since 1941.
Mr. Mack: Coming from the hon. Member, that remark savoured of ill understanding. He of all people should have appreciated the wonderful effort made by Russia for the liberation of, the persecuted peoples of all countries. Even though it were belated, I still think that their action was magnificent. Although Russia did not come into the war at the very beginning—they had to play for time—and although the political heads of this country smelt badly in the nostrils of the Russian leaders at that time, Hitler stank. They always realised he was their most formidable enemy, not only because of his political power, but also because he was infinitely more powerful in arms and could deal, if necessary, a potent blow against Russia. Whatever may be said about that, the fact remains clear for everybody to see that, having entered the war, Russia threw everything into the struggle. She gave of her very best and this House should always pay tribute from the bottom of our hearts, to the undying glory of that great country. After the war I trust, and indeed believe, that, if we approach the U.S.S.R. in a spirit of understanding and broadmindedness, we can build up a great and enduring friendship which will serve us well for the future.
I do not wish to take up more of the time of the House, but I would say to hon. Members opposite that we on our side, have made very great political sacrifices for the sake of the war. It is common knowledge and relevant to this Debate to say, that we could have augmented our numbers very considerably if we had not subdued ourselves for the primary purpose of giving support to the Government. It is true that there are difficulties in respect of that; maybe the future will decide and we may have to alter our electoral truce policy. But this I would say, that when it comes to the question of sacrifice, members of my party are second to no other party in this House. We believe that the foreign policy of this country is open to grave review and this. Debate should give us an opportunity to strengthen our line

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in certain directions and take the necessary firm action against Governments who are not responding in the way they should. If we do that, I believe we shall to a large extent have helped the cause of freedom in this war.
Sir Geoffrey Ellis: During this Debate a great many personal opinions have been offered on foreign affairs. There stand out in the Debate the speeches of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg) and that of the hon. Gentleman the Senior Burgess of the University of Cambridge (Mr. Pickthorn). I do not propose to try to add anything to those two historical expositions. They will stand for a very long time in this House as speeches which were listened to very intently and they will be repeated outside.
I want, first, to direct myself to opinion in the country to-day. We have dealt pretty largely with foreign affairs and it is about time that something was said to the House concerning the opinions held by ordinary men in the country. I do not propose to offer my individual opinion at all but rather to record the opinions which I have experienced not only among my own constituents in Yorkshire, but among my own workpeople and my own administrative staff. The outstanding thing is the support given to and the belief in, the Prime Minister. They are a support and a belief such as very seldom come to pass in our history, but when they do, they take quite an odd form. The Prime Minister having gained their opinion and their confidence, there has succeeded almost a kind of friendly affection for all the work that he has done. That has been very much added to by the appreciation of our people of what the Prime Minister has given both in measure and in health, to this country. The same applies in lesser degree—because the responsibility is not as great—to the work done by the Foreign Secretary, or perhaps I should say, the work done by the two together in that sphere. That has been of more importance during this war than perhaps in any other war, in which our nation has ever taken part.
The Prime Minister has very justly pointed out to the people, the great share that is being taken by our own troops, both Colonial and home troops, in the war. That needed to be said, because the attention given to other troops—
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whom we all agree are most deserving—had seemed to take away some of the merit of what our own troops have done. Perhaps it would be fair to say that the work done by our own troops had got a little out of perspective, in relation to that done by the troops of other nations.
Something has been said in this House and in another place about bombing. The people with whom I have discussed the question, are pretty much of one opinion. They hold the view that that is a question, the details of which can be known only to the Higher Commands, and that people who take certain views have something up their sleeves. That, of course, is another question. What I did hear very definitely expressed in all quarters was that the policy of "willing to wound and yet afraid to strike" was perhaps about the most stupid thing advanced in any war that had ever been fought.
Perhaps the most interesting thing to all of us on this side of the House, as it is to hon. Members opposite, has been the attitude of the ordinary man to Russia during the war. I have had many talks with my workpeople on this subject, some of whom one would call extremists, others of a middle mind and others of our own side. I have not heard on any one occasion, that what Russia and the Russian troops are doing to-day is in any way related to the particular form of government which Russia has at present or had in the past. The kind of expression one heard was, "This is something new. We have certainly to take account of this country in the future." That was the prevailing spirit throughout all the opinions expressed. One might put it in another way. It was said, "I do not know what makes these Russians fight in the way they do, but it seems to me that, if we had had our own country overrun, our people murdered and treated as these people have been, we would feel the same way as they do. "I believe that the strength of the Russian fighting to-day is largely due to the brutality which has been shown by their enemy. Whatever questions we may have to decide with Russia hereafter, they are quite other matters. The American troops are with us. The interest taken in them is quite different from that taken in Russia. I believe that their experience here will make our people understand

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the United States of America very much better than they did before, and that it is going to make the United States understand us a very great deal more than they have done before. At any rate, one hopes that the mixing is all to the good.
A good many expressions of opinion have been given in this House as to the way in which Europe should be re-integrated in the future. I have taken some pains to discuss with people with whom I have been able to get into touch the basis of their views about—to put it frankly—our interference in Europe in the future. I have found a very interesting feeling—perhaps it is rather an insular mind—that we ought to interfere as little as possible; and that if we do interfere, it should be no part of our duty to tell any European nation what government they ought to have. I have never heard it go any further than this, "If their Governments have to be changed, we hope that there will be freedom for their people to think, say and do what they like, more or less, so long as they play the game with one another." I do not think that I heard an expression go further than that, among those who are vaguely called the common people. I can find nowhere any belief among the people with whom I have discussed this question—and it has been a pretty broad discussion—that there is any prospect of, or any desire for, the reconstitution of the League of Nations. A view I have found very strongly expressed is this, that the Allies have this job to do, and it should be for the Allies to decide in the end how Europe should be re-integrated, having full consideration, for all the opinions and feelings that may come to the individual nations concerned.
Last, on the home front I find—and it is somewhat disquieting—that people appear to be in a kind of split mind, a mind which looks towards the war, and also looks towards the future of this country, without any reference of one to the other. I am quite sure there has been, and is still, a spirit of complacency which very dangerous, both for the future of the war and for anything we may be able to do in this country after the war. Unless we can get people's minds back to the main purpose of our lives at present, which is to win the war, there will be very little prospect of anything worth while to follow the war. The Prime Minister referred
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to that in opening the Debate, and I do hope we shall get some support from the Press in that respect. Latterly we have had far too many banner-head notes about "rapid progress" and the "smashing" of this, that, and the other. It is a pity we cannot have from the B.B.C. a more reasoned exposition on these subjects, in which the dangers can be pointed out as well as the advantages. If we had, I think it would tend to keep minds a little more in perspective on this very difficult question.
It is going to be difficult to keep the minds of our people on Great Britain's share in Europe after the war. A duty has been imposed on this House, not only to debate here but to lead opinion outside this House. Happily, our foreign policy during the next few years—and I say this advisedly—cannot possibly be any question of controversy between parties in this country, for the simple reason that we have set out hands to the plough to go a certain way, and whatever party may be in power, whatever may be the results of General Elections, we have to implement the policy with which we entered the war. That means, obviously, that after the war we have to police Europe, until Europe recovers sufficiently to run on its own account. How it is to be done is quite another matter. From what I hear going about among people, I think a tremendous amount of education is needed on that subject, and the burden of giving this education is going to fall on the leaders of parties and Members of this House.
May I say a few words about the future of those countries in Europe which it will be our business to build up again? I respect the spirit of non-interference, and I am not going to suggest any desire to interfere in any way. But I would suggest that the reshaping of those countries is not altogether and, indeed, not mainly, a question of politics. The future success of anything we may do in Europe, will probably be found to be in the economic basis on which we choose to set Europe up again. It is easy enough, working from a political centre, to suggest that this, that, or the other frontier should be drawn here or there, according to the desires of politicians to make countries larger or smaller. That is an easy matter. But what really matters to the ordinary man, living his ordinary life and, more particularly, to the peasantry

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of Europe—with which we are most concerned as these questions run throughout the Balkan States—is, what is his life? What does he do for a living? Where can he market his produce? Therefore, in settling any frontiers, and doing anything of that kind, it is not the mere expansion of a country that you have to consider. You have to be very careful indeed, when you separate any section of people from another, that you have given them a market where they can sell their produce.
There is just one other point worthy of mention. At the end of the last war, when Europe was set up again, there was a good deal of the spirit of erecting as many nations as possible. Many small nations were set up, but what was not carefully enough considered was, how those small nations were to govern their own affairs or, rather, whether those small nations, composed again of diverse elements, were going to establish a unitary government and centralise everything, or whether the elements might fight one another, or whether we should try to govern them by an extension of local government. The House appreciates what happened in Czecho-Slovakia and Yugoslavia. In Yugoslavia to-day, the failure of central government is reflected in the two contending sections who are fighting first on one side and then on the other. Whatever is done in the future, I hope some regard will be paid to that kind of thing. We cannot dictate, but what we can say is, "It seems to us from what has happened, that your form of government has not yet been particularly successful, and since, according to the charter, or to the principles on which we govern ourselves, we believe in as much local government as possible and as little interference from the centre as possible, then it might be worth while, as a condition of our help in the future, that you should try a form of government which will at any rate not cause revolution among yourselves with possible repercussions throughout the whole world."
During this Debate we have not said much about the future of things at home. I think the time has come when we might ask the Prime Minister to give us some general outline of his feelings about the future—I do not say go into any detail at all—and in giving us that general outline, to remember—as it was put to me by one of my phrase-making industrial friends—that it is not much good erecting
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a dens ex machina and putting him up in a kind of aloof Olympus. What will have to be done if the Government want the confidence of the people about the future, is for the Prime Minister to tell us, generally, what he has in mind. The confidence of the people is with him—not with his Government. Let me say quite plainly, and do not let me be misunderstood, that he is the driving force of the Government—he and the Foreign Secretary. If he would only give us, in a general way, what he feels about the future and what, in detail, he has delegated his Ministers to do, I am sure it would steady a great deal of the feeling that now exists. I am sure, still further, that it will enable a great many of us in industry and trade, to get some indication of the way in which the shape of things to come, is to be regulated, and enable us to get on with our work in a way we cannot otherwise do to-day.
Captain Grey: For some considerable time now observers of the British scene have come across a curious yet incontrovertible fact, the paradox that in spite of over a year of almost unparalleled military successes, such as have hitherto in this war not fallen to Allied arms, our people have nevertheless been growing progressively more frustrated, progressively more dissatisfied. As the Prime Minister himself said yesterday, on the very eve of the second front—itself the most grandiose and most formidable military operation in the whole history of warfare—this feeling of frustration is still growing. I do not believe this feeling can be wholly explained away by the mere fact that after 4½ years of war we are not so fresh as when we began, or even by the further reason advanced recently in certain newspapers when discussing the results of recent by-elections, that it is merely general disquiet in regard to social reform—although obviously both those reasons have their part to play. I believe there is a third and main reason, and I think that the Foreign Secretary, in replying to us today, could do something to allay it. Fundamentally, I believe, people in this country are getting worried and anxious as to our position in the world after the war. They are beginning to realise that even if they get a progressive government after the war, unless Britain not only retains her old position in the world but can establish it on even firmer ground,

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any hope of building up a finer life for our people is absolutely impossible.
It seems to me that, on the eve of our return to Europe, there are certain questions asked by our serving men, and by the people of Europe to whose help we are going, which should be answered by the present administration and never have been. I would ask the Foreign Secretary what, in his view, is to be Britain's position in Europe after the war? Throughout this war we have heard a great deal about the intentions of the United Nations. We have had the Atlantic Charter, and the very concrete achievement of a 20-year treaty of alliance with the Soviet Union. But when we return to Western Europe, the men and women of Western Europe know that the United States are 3,000 miles away. They realise, too, that even our Soviet friends are farther from them than we are, but they know that we are on their very doorstep and, what is more, they know from the history of the past 20 years that we have constantly shirked our responsibility to them. When we go into Europe, we are expecting these men and women to come out into the streets to fight Germans. I believe that they will come out in the streets to fight the common enemy, but they will come more willingly if they are given concrete assurance that Britain is going to resume its traditional role as the leader of progress in Europe and will do its best to help them.
I believe that the time has come when we must consider that the concerns of Western Europe are the concerns of our country. We do not begrudge the Soviet Union considering her own affairs; it is obviously of vital importance that she should have safety on her own frontiers, but the same surely applies to us. There is a tendency, when we consider this return to Europe, to use the phrase "fortress." I suppose it derives from the way the Germans talk the whole time about the "fortress of Europe." But I think we would be entirely wrong if we considered that in returning to Europe we were merely entering a Bastille, whose prisoners will flock out, cap in hand, delighted with what we have done. We are not returning to a fortress but to fortresses—fortresses whose garrisons have not surrendered but have gone on fighting for over four years, men and women who have been fighting incessantly for the way
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of life they wish to build up in Europe. We know that their ideas are radical ideas, and it is of the very greatest importance, if we are to continue to influence the thought of Western Europe, that we should, once and for all, state that we are interested in their concerns. It is one thing to decide that we are interested in the affairs of Europe; it is another thing to get our ideas carried out and, unfortunately, we have seen, through no fault of the Foreign Secretary—indeed he resigned his great post over that issue, and all honour to him for doing so—the breaking up of the League system of collective security which disaster has, unfortunately, struck a deep blow at the cause of international amity.
We have seen built up in this war, as our Allies have gathered around us, an unfortunate system of power politics. We may not like that phrase, but I do not think anyone will deny that at the present moment international relationships are built on that basis. We have been given the examples of the "Big Four"—the Soviet Union, the United States, China and ourselves—who will, it is said, lay down the rules for the conduct of Europe and the Far East after the war. It is an illusion to imagine for one moment that we shall succeed in doing that. Four nations alone cannot do it. The only way to influence these people is, as Pitt said, having saved ourselves by our exertions to save Europe by our example.
Historically, Britain in the world has always been the leader of its liberties and the pioneer of progress. The question whether we influence the world after the war depends solely on whether we present to them the example of an efficient working democracy. I am concerned that we shall have the power to get what we say listened to; I think there is general anxiety in the country on this point. But the "Gloomy Dean" school of prophecy in our country is a small one; very few of our countrymen take such a pessimistic and irrational view of our future as Dean Inge. Throughout the past centuries, if you took the population figures of a given country and gave it adequate leadership and courage, you could be certain that that nation would be one of the leading countries of the world. Progressively with the passage of time those population figures have necessarily increased. When Hitler announced before the war that he needed living room, and we pointed out

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that he did not on existing population figures, the reason he demanded it was because he was planning a much larger country and population. He thought that in the centuries to come it would be the large nations in the world which would rule, with populations much larger than European nations possess to-day. I hope we shall try to build up again a system of collective security, indeed, it is vital that we should. But the fact remains that in any conference we attend in the world, to-day or in those early formative years of the new world to-morrow, it is of vital importance that we should not only have a good policy but the power to carry it out.
How can we assure Europe that we in Britain possess that power? For some reason which I have never understood we have constantly underplayed our own contribution and I was glad to hear the Prime Minister point out yesterday instances of the great contribution which we have made in this war. There are other concrete signs we can show immediately. What is the average European saying now about our robustness as a nation? Take the five neutral countries in Europe at the moment. It is a curious fact—and I have not seen it commented upon—that there are only two who are playing satisfactorily our way, who are cutting down their supplies to Germany and are helping us all they can. Yet these two nations are those surrounded by Germany, Sweden and Switzerland, whose Governments are real democracies. Look at the other three neutrals. There is no need to mention Spain—indeed, the state of affairs there was foreseen before this war, which was why Members inside this House and many people outside were anxious that Franco should not win the civil war. Take the other two neutrals; you have a remarkable situation. You have our oldest Ally, Portugal, which is being constantly praised and with whom we have an alliance dating from the 14th century. Indeed, we are greatly indebted to Portugal for her gift of air facilities in the Azores, but if you look on the reverse side of the sheet she is, so far as I can see, the main source of supply for Germany for wolfram and tungsten, which goes into German armour-piercing projectiles. After Portugal's gift of air facilities comments were made in the Press that it was remarkable that Germany took no action, but Germany is
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getting a lot of help from Portugal too so why should she? Our other Ally, Turkey, is in a similar position. Whereas the projectiles which hit our tanks are tempered with tungsten from Portugal the actual armour plate for German tanks is probably tempered by chrome from Turkey. So, when Europe considers our future in the post-war world, she witnesses that Spain has been able to treat us with contumely and she sees our own Allies able to supply Germany with impunity. Therefore, it is not unnatural that one of the greatest doubts in the mind of the European is whether we will be sufficiently robust. It would be well, I think, if we behaved with greater firmness.
There is a further aspect. I wish to assume—and I think it is fair to do so—that in the same way as Englishmen and women in our Alliance with the Soviet Union and the United States desire those Allies to be strong so that they can be of help to us, they, in their turn, wish us to be strong too. We discovered to our own cost when we gave a protective assurance to Rumania, for instance, before this war that there is no greater embarrassment than to make an alliance which you cannot support yourself with people who cannot help you themselves. I see nothing to conflict with the desire of Russia or America in our hope that there should be a more powerful Britain after this war. If we regard Britain as a small island off the West coast of Europe then Britain will not be powerful. Lord Halifax raised an issue in Canada about some alteration in Dominion status which caused some controversy and I would like to suggest to the Foreign Secretary, when such matters come up for consideration, whether it is not possible to give a new structure to our Commonwealth which can lead it to become a new League of Nations? It is now quite obvious to Dutchmen for example and other small countries, after four years' occupation, that they never had sufficient economic resources to be able to defend themselves on their own and that it was no good to rely merely on their innocence to save them. It is ridiculous to assume that Marshal Stalin would be offended at the thought of a strong Britain. He might, it is true, dislike the thought of a strong reactionary Britain, but it will be up to

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us to see that we become a working and progressive democracy.
I disagree with the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Mack) when he said that insufficient publicity has been given to the launching of the second front. I sometimes wonder, when I read the newspapers and speeches of responsible statesmen and other people, whether we will not eventually even publish the map references and the time and date of our landings. In 1940 the "Voelkischer Beobachter" did not say that General Deitl and so many divisions intended to arrive in Norway in so many months' time. We did not know in advance that Hitler would invade Belgium on approximately a certain day. I think that such publicity is dangerous. As a consequence the Germans are filling France with troops—I think some 50 divisions are now garrisoned there—and this has been one of the main factors in the Russian advance in the East.
Mr. Stokes: We are not going to have a second front yet.
Captain Grey: The hon. Member had better not tell anybody in the Forces that we are not to have a second front. We who are in the Forces know only too well that we are. This campaign will make demands and sacrifices on the nation such as it has never had to face before. Things will be much worse than in 1940, when we regarded ourselves as gallant because everybody told us we were, though we had more food, clothing and houses and were much more comfortable than we are to-day, and casualties were then small. When we consider the casualties which will occur when the second front opens we can indeed see that there will be need for a guiding spirit and purpose to help the nation support the coming burden. There is little sign of such a spirit and purpose at the moment, and we must present something of an enigma to Europe.
I hope the Foreign Secretary will make it quite clear that when we go abroad we shall do so not only in the belief that we are trying to help our own position but that we are trying to build a better way of life for others. On the subject of our own Commonwealth the only statement the Prime Minister has made, so far as I know, on that subject was a somewhat
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unhappy one. He said—I cannot remember the exact text—"I have not become the King's first Minister to preside at the liquidation of the British Empire." With that sentiment we are all in agreement, but those words gave the impression to the outside world that like Metternich we intend to "govern and change nothing." Although we have no intention of abandoning our leading position in the world we have every intention of altering and improving our method. We shall move with the times and I hope the Foreign Secretary himself at the end of this Debate—or perhaps the Prime Minister on another occasion—will make some such statement. If he did so I am sure it would save lives when we go into Europe and allay a great deal of anxiety both at home and abroad.
Major Morris: In connection with the campaign in Burma, from which country I have recently returned, I am pleased to inform Members of the House that I have very little criticism to make. Indeed, if I do, I will be most careful not to say anything that would in any way add to the existing difficulties confronting the people who are charged with running the war in that country. Considering the conditions of climate, lack of roads, the jungle and jungle diseases, I am more than satisfied that the war in Burma is being conducted with the maximum efficiency. If anyone thinks otherwise, I would advise him to go out for himself and find what conditions are like in that country. Neither do I wish by any careless talk to give information to the enemy. I have discovered since I arrived back in this country that there has been much unfounded criticism of the strategy of the war, not only in Burma but on all fronts, regarding the efforts of those who have to make important military decisions. This has not sustained the morale of the troops.
But that is not to say that every aspect of the organisation of the Army in Burma has been perfect. There have been mistakes: much has been learned by trial and error. If anyone expected otherwise, he shows a lamentable lack of appreciation of the ramifications of an army in a country such as Burma. I have a message from the troops in Burma. They have had a long spell in the jungle and they would like to be told that they are not the

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forgotten souls of the British Army and that, when the war is won and plans are being discussed and demobilisation priorities arranged, that fact will not be lost sight of. I know I shall not be betraying any military secrets when I call attention to the magnificent work performed by the tea planters of India and Assam in making the mountain track from Assam to Burma into the present first-class metalled road, which can now take three lines of traffic and without which our Army in Northern Burma would be in grave danger. I hope the Government will show appreciation of that magnificent work.
The main reason why I desired to participate in the Debate was to register an emphatic protest against the unwarranted criticism in previous war Debates levelled at the Government in general, the War Cabinet in particular and the Prime Minister in a three-starred particular, regarding the central direction of the war. The people who indulge in that criticism are the same people who did their best to reduce this country to a state of military impotence and who now say that our comparatively happy position is due to the military genius of Russia and her fighting qualities and leadership—with which I agree. They are the same people who, between 1930 and 1939, had we displayed this same tendency, would have been the first to condemn us.
Mr. Stokes: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman recollect the statement of Lord Baldwin about the way he deceived the country?
Mr. R. J. Taylor: Does the hon. and gallant Member remember the present Lord Chancellor, when Chancellor of the Exchequer, boasting that he had not spent the money that was allocated for defence?
Major Morris: I remember many things. If that was our condition of unprepared-ness then it would have been worse if those hon. Members had been in power.
Mr. Mathers: Does the hon. and gallant Member by that statement seek to absolve those who were effectively in power all the time?
Mr. George Griffiths: And did not spend the money after they had got it.
Sir Patrick Hannon: Would it not be better if the hon. and gallant Member were allowed to make his speech?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Charles Williams): I do not think three questions are over-much.
Major Morris: I was amazed to find that the main centre of attack of the people who criticised the direction of the war was the Prime Minister. I am jealous of the rights of Members, but I am certain in my own mind that they betrayed a great lack of proportion in their utterances on that point. They fail to realise what harm they have done to our war effort, both in Allied and neutral countries, by attacking and criticising the one man who, in 1940, saved us from defeat. I shudder to think what would have happened had he not been on the bridge during that period. There is an old saying that no one is indispensable, but when that phrase was coined this country had not experienced a war like this or the one of 1914–18. In the case of the Prime Minister that adage is out of date. He is indispensable, and he is the only man in the country who could inspire the people to the endeavours necessary for the successful prosecution of the war. In so far as operations on land, sea and air and the grand strategy of the war are concerned, I am satisfied. There is a good team running the war, and what has commended them to my notice is their refusal to bow down to the clamour and storm of misinformed public opinion on the question of a second front. They have not been too precipitate. They have waited until there can be no mistake as to the result. That confirms me in my opinion that they are entitled to the utmost support of all of us.
I want to make an appeal to hon. Members for conciliation, unity and a return of the spirit of 1940. That spirit is just as necessary now as at any time since Dunkirk. I have been amazed at the complacency of our people regarding the end of the war. There will be frightful battles and terrible carnage before the war is won. Every attack upon the Government, every seat lost at a by-election, recurring labour disputes and strikes, with consequent loss of production, are most harmful to the war effort. I make this plea for the men who served under me and worked with me in Burma.

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They are much more concerned in a quick and victorious termination of the war and a speedy demobilisation than in any plans or discussions on future reconstruction. Their England is the England they left, whether it is the house in a small street of Salford, a country cottage, a suburban villa or a country mansion with broad acres—
Mr. Driberg: Or the slums.
Major Morris: Yes, or the slums. They want to get back to their wives and families, and the young men want to get back to their parents. Any one who has had the job of censoring their letters for over two years, will realise that that is their constant thought. I know that it is prudent to think of the future but in my opinion there has been too much talk of the future at the expense of the war effort. Winning this war remains our paramount job. All schemes of post-war reconstruction, no matter how grandiose, are nothing compared in importance with that paramount job. I know there are certain people who are thinking more of their political reputations than of the future of the country when the war is over and the men return, but to them political reputations do not count. No serving soldier cares a hoot about or is in any way interested in the ambitions of certain politicians. Their concern is to get back when the war is won to the England that they know and love. We are now on the eve of a mighty military enterprise. Does anyone believe that the men who are training for it, by hardening their muscles and strengthening their sinews, are concerned at the moment with post-war problems? Let us set an example in rededicating ourselves to the firm resolution to win the war as early as possible and set out soldiers, sailors and airmen an example of unity. I am grateful to the Prime Minister for his conduct of the war. If his work can be measured in terms of men, he has not only a division. He has an army of many divisions. I trust he will be spared to lead us to a victorious and early conclusion of the war and to give us a lasting and beneficial peace.
Mr. G. Strauss: I intend to resist the temptation to reply in detail to the many provocative and extraordinary points the hon. and gallant
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Gentleman has made. I would only say that I am amazed at the poor view he takes of our people, because he has solemnly told us his conviction that, if it were not for one individual, the Prime Minister, the people of this country would have collapsed in 1940. I am sure the Prime Minister would not take that view and I look upon it as a gross insult to the people of our cities, who stood up to the blitz, to suggest that their courage and spirit are so poor that they depended on the existence of one man to stop them from collapsing. I will resist the temptation to go on but I really think the hon. and gallant Gentleman deserves it for the way he spoke. I am absolutely certain that he was betraying the hopes of hundreds of thousands of our soldiers and their relatives here when he said that all that our soldiers abroad are concerned about is when they can return to this country, and that they do not mind the sort of country to which they return. I am sure every one will agree with me that they are most anxious that we should be conducting our affairs in Parliament and in the country so that they can be assured of a better country to return to than the one they left, of decent houses, and that they will not have to suffer from long periods of unemployment. Their major wish is to finish the war, but they are desperately anxious to come back to decent conditions. They are looking to us to see that we shape those conditions along the lines that they would desire.
I want to make one or two comments on the speech of the Prime Minister. I found that the most impressive part was the catalogue he gave of the contributions of the people of this country to the war. I thought that it was right that he should give us those facts and figures. It was an exceedingly valuable contribution to the knowledge of the peoples of the whole world. There are elements in some Allied countries who try to belittle the sacrifices and services of the people of this country. They are wrong in doing so, and the more it is known how much our people have sacrificed themselves, the louder and stronger and more effective will be our voice in European and world affairs. My complaint is that our voice to-day is not as effective as it could be, as it ought to be, and as it should be, because, while we have a military policy, we do not appear to have a foreign policy which the peoples of Europe can understand and appreciate.

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We do not appear to have any clear-cut attitude on European affairs which will appeal to the peoples of Europe. That is a serious matter, because we risk losing the confidence and leadership of those European democratic, progressive and, maybe, revolutionary forces that will emerge at the end of the war and dominate the European scene. It is essential both to the future of Europe and to our future that we should have the confidence and friendship of those peoples.
There are three points which strike me forcibly, and two of them were omitted from the Prime Minister's speech. I hope that the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will be able to say something on those matters which the Prime Minister omitted and which are of general interest to the House and the country. The first is Turkey. No doubt the situation there is one of delicacy, but, according to reports which have come to this country, there has been a very unfortunate turn of public opinion in Turkey against this country. In view of the hopes that were raised after the Teheran conference about our relationships with Turkey, the House will be interested to know, as far as possible, what are our present relationships. I would particularly like to know whether the large supplies of chrome are still going from Turkey to Germany in the same quantities as before, because chrome is a vital war material and it helps Germany's war industry. The other omission, which I understand the right hon. Gentleman is to repair, but about which, unfortunately, we will not be able to cross-examine him, is our relationships with Spain and the situation in regard to the supply from Spain to Germany of wolfram.
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will also talk about the supply of wolfram from Portugal to Germany. A great deal has been said about this matter, but, as far as I can see, nothing has been done. The fact remains that to-day wolfram is an absolutely essential war material for Germany, more essential now that Nikopol has been captured by the Russians and Germany is not able to get the magnesium. Yet go per cent. of Germany's wolfram requirements are coming from Spain and Portugal. That is the figure given by the Ministry of Economic Warfare. I understand that certain negotiations are going on with Spain, and perhaps we will be told something about them. I would like to know, however, what is happening with
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Portugal, which is supplying the major portion of the wolfram. Have the Government made energetic representations to the Portuguese Government during the last few months? Have the Portuguese Government been made conscious of the impatience of the people of this country that the Portuguese people, our Allies, should be continuing to give such substantial aid to our enemies? I ask the Foreign Secretary not just to give us an answer saying that things are proceeding, but to give us either some substantial assurance on the matter, or take steps to stop this scandal continuing.
The other matter I want to deal with is the statement of the Prime Minister concerning the difficulties which have arisen between Poland and Russia. I do not want to say anything of the contributions to the war of these two countries or of our admiration of their people. That is not my purpose. I want to comment upon the two declarations made by the Prime Minister. One was that Russia needed reassurance against future attack by a readjustment of her frontiers. The second was that Poland should be compensated by having some part of German territory in the north and the west. There may be excellent reasons for readjustment of this or the other boundary, excellent ethnographic reasons. In this case there is such a reason. To suggest, however, that the alteration of boundaries can possibly create any reassurance to any country against further aggression is extraordinarily dangerous. To start with, it is nonsense.
Never in history has any boundary, however strategically favourable it may be, prevented a country from being attacked if another country wanted to attack it, and that is less likely to-day than ever since the aeroplane has come to play such a major part in war. Therefore, it is ridiculous to suggest that we should alter any boundaries in any part of Europe on strategical grounds so as to prevent a further outbreak of German or other aggression. I hope that that principle will not be accepted by His Majesty's Government or by any other member of the United Nations. If it is, it will lead to demands from all over Europe for boundary readjustments which are completely unjustifiable. Some such demands are already being made. The net result will be the creation of groups within new boundaries which are more likely to

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lead to further unrest and war than to a pacification of Europe.
Mr. Bartle Bull: Suppose East Prussia were a part of Poland; does not the hon. Gentleman think that that would be a solution?
Mr. Strauss: I am coming to that in a moment. The statement by the Prime Minister that East Prussia is to become part of Poland is a very important new declaration of policy. May I read what the right hon. Gentleman said, referring to his conversation with Mr. Stalin:
"I also spoke and agreed upon the need for Poland to obtain compensation at the expense of Germany both in the North and in the West."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd February, 1944; col. 698, Vol. 497.]
The Prime Minister agreed that a part of Germany—I assume that he meant East Prussia—should go to Poland. This is an important matter of principle, and it is a proposal with which I totally disagree. I would like to know whether he was speaking for a united Government in this matter, whether the Labour leaders in the Government agree to this proposal, and whether it may be assumed that the Labour movement is committed by it. It has never been before the House and never agreed among my colleagues that Germany is to be cut up after the war. This proposal is wrong for a variety of reasons. It is not likely to lead to any settlement of European affairs but will lead, if carried out, to a grave deterioration of European affairs. Moreover, it will be a piece of gross and stupid injustice. Let us consider the situation of East Prussia. By all tests it is a German territory inhabited by German people. By tests which have been made 97 per cent. of the people speak German.
Mr. Bull: All Poles speak German.
Mr. Strauss: German is the native language of 97 per cent. of the people. Of the plebiscites made by the League of Nations after the last war, one showed that 92 per cent. and another that 98 per cent. of the people of that country wanted to remain with Germany. It will not be denied that by history and culture the area is German. I have no sympathy for a moment, and nobody in the House will have, with the Prussian landlords who have dominated that country for far too long. By their behaviour and outlook
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they have been the major enemies of European peace for a long time, and I want to see them uprooted and driven out. To suggest, however, that these German people, 2,500,000 of them, should be taken over by Poland, and that that will lead to any betterment in the European situation, or to permanent settlement, seems to me to be quite wrong in justice and to be bound to lead to the opposite result.
Mr. Boothby: This is an important matter, and I would like to ask the hon. Gentleman one question. Does he regard Bismarck's Empire as sacrosanct, and does he want the future of Europe to be constructed on the basis of Bismarck's Empire?
Mr. Strauss: I do not think anything of the sort. I do not consider any boundary sacrosanct. I am prepared to change any boundary which can be shown to be bad from the ethnographic, historic and cultural points of view, but to change a boundary as the result of some other reason in the case of Poland because another bit of Poland is going somewhere else, and to do that for alleged military purposes, is a change to which I am wholly opposed.
Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Would not a transfer of population solve the problem?
Mr. Strauss: Even if we desire to contemplate moving millions of people, there are no Polish populations in Germany which can be transferred.
Mr. Bull: There are many working in Germany.
Mr. Strauss: We want to know how far this proposal goes. It has been suggested by the Polish Committee in Moscow that not only East Prussia, but Lower Silesia, Upper Silesia and the Danzig Corridor, comprising 7,500,000 people, should be transferred. It is true that these proposals have not been endorsed by the Russian Government or anybody else, but these demands are being made. We should have some clear declaration of policy from the Government at this stage because this matter is obviously urgent—about the breaking up of Germany, or any other territory, not for the sake of appeasement or the readjustment of unsatisfactory boundaries, but

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as plunder to other nations. Has that been agreed to, and if so, to what extent?
Major Woolley: Would the hon. Member apply the same two tests to Austria that he has applied to Poland, of the percentage of the people who speak the language and the, other regarding bad landlords? If there were the same results, would he then say that Germany had a right to Austria?
Mr. Strauss: I cannot see the hon. Member's point. If the people of Austria speak German and the people of Germany speak German—as of course they do—and by some voluntary, democratic investigation they decide that they would like to have some economic or political union, that is one thing, but the hon. and gallant Gentleman must know that it is an unfortunate fact that the Poles and the Germans have never got on well together. They have always been at daggers drawn. To put under Polish domination a large, real German population would be quite wrong. It certainly would not accord with the principles of the Atlantic Charter, and would be bound to lead to disaster and future war. When it is suggested that some steps such as these are desired, in order to prevent Germany attacking Europe again and taking aggressive action, I am amazed at the lack of confidence of the United Nations in the actions which they are able to take to this end.
It does not seem difficult, if the United Nations are agreed and determined, to prevent another outbreak of war from Germany. It is, partly, a very simple technical problem. One has to deprive Germany of certain raw materials, and prevent any aeroplanes, military or civil, from being built in Germany, and the training of any German air crews. If you take those simple technical precautions and are prepared to see them carried out, it is quite possible to prevent Germany from attacking another country. If there is determination by the United Nations to do that, then there will be no war, but if there is no agreement among the United Nations on this matter, you can readjust your frontiers how you like, and you will achieve nothing. It may be asked whether Poland is not to be compensated for the loss of territory which may go to Russia for very good reasons, by being allowed to take under her domination some German territory.
Mr. Pickthorn: May I interrupt the hon. Member for one second, honestly not attempting to be unfriendly, but because I am not quite sure that I am following his argument? I did gather a few minutes ago that the one reason for redrawing a frontier which was always wrong, was the strategic reason but that you could have an ethnographic reason. I understand now that the redrawing of frontiers on the Russian side may be right. Is that for strategic reasons, or for what sort of reasons?
Mr. Ivor Thomas: The latest form of the proposal includes a suggestion that Koenigsberg should be in the Soviet Union. Does my hon. Friend's censure apply to that proposal also?
Mr. Strauss: Certainly. I am not an expert on these matters and I would not like to give a decisive answer, but there appear to be ethnographic grounds for accepting something like the Curzon line.
Mr. Pickthorn: Are we not getting rather dangerously near to racialism? How do we distinguish between racialism and ethnography?
Mr. Strauss: I would most strongly oppose the transfer of Koenigsberg, which is a wholly German city, and a stronghold of Social Democracy by the way, to any other country, unless the people of Koenigsberg were willing. To insist upon it for strategic grounds would be wholly wrong.
I am sorry that I have been so long over my speech, but I have been interrupted very much. I only want to make one more point. What is fair compensation to the people of Poland, for being deprived of some of their previous territory? What the people of Poland want is prosperity. They want employment and peace and to be able to live a decent life.
Mr. Pickthorn: They want to be Poles, as the English people want to be English.
Mr. Strauss: The Polish Government may want something different, but it seems to me that ample compensation for the people of Poland would be to see to it that they got all the materials needed by them, in the way of machinery for their agriculture and industries, fertilisers, and electrical development facilities, to build up a prosperous economy. Poland

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has been poor and restless in the past, largely for lack of those things, and for lack of credit and other facilities which would enable her to build up a prosperous economy. Provide those facilities for Poland and make Poland a prosperous country. Insist, if you like, that the Germans supply that machinery and materials, and I do not think that Poland will have any grievance whatever. In fact, she would be a far happier country than she has ever been before.
Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: How would the hon. Member arrange for her to have access to the sea?
Mr. Stokes: It is not necessary.
Mr. Strauss: That is a matter of arrangement and of having railway facilities and leasing dockyards. With good will, that could be done. Switzerland, one of the most prosperous countries in Europe, has no port.
Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: That would re-create the Corridor.
Mr. Strauss: I believe that it is along the lines of promising, not only to Poland but to our other Allies, that the United Nations will do their utmost when the war is over, not to readjust their boundaries, but to see that they are given facilities to build up a prosperous economy—and will see to it that they have them—so that they can increase, and may be to double the fertility of their soil, to set up small industries and enable them to trade and carry on their work without restrictive customs barriers, that peace can be secured in Europe. It is not along the line of redrawing boundaries.
It is along those lines that the Foreign Secretary, on behalf of the Government, should declare our policy for Europe. It is not enough to talk about the establishment of independent countries or the re-establishment of democracy. That is alright, but is largely words. Moreover, it may conceal the fact that we must bring about such an economic reorganisation of Europe as will bring prosperity to its countries. We must tell the people of Europe that it is our firm intention, not only of Great Britain but of the United Nations, to assure them security and prosperity, not through frontier re-adjustments, but by devising
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such changes in their economic structure, whatever private interests may have to be uprooted in the process, as will make freedom from want for those people not just a slogan but a reality.
Captain Longhurst: I should like, with all those uneasy emotions which older hon. Members will recall having experienced when they first addressed this House, to draw attention to another, and I hope not so controversial, aspect of our foreign relations, which seems to be in urgent need of review. I suppose it can best be described, though inadequately, as "national public relations." I mean the setting of Britain's case about British achievements, Britain's way of life and Britain's purpose, before the rest of the world. Salesmanship was never one of our strong points. I think we have always felt ourselves to be rather above that sort of thing—which is perhaps a legacy from the days when we could afford to. "Publicity" and "propaganda" are words which are discredited with us, and even the newer and more respectable "public relations" still carries with it a faint aroma.
It is widely admitted that successful partnership in war and, more emphatically, successful partnership in the uneasy days that will follow, must depend very largely on good will and understanding between what we call the man in the street, the average citizen, of the nations involved. Good will and understanding can be based it seems to me, not on high pressure propaganda or, as is our way at the moment, on low pressure understatement, but on plain, honest, blunt, straight, hard facts. That is what people want. I do not ask that we should go trumpeting round the world that Britain won the war, or any such nonsense. I only ask that when the time comes for other nations to make their assessment of us, that that assessment should be made on the basis of a knowledge of the truth and the facts about us. I do not want to go and plead with anybody to make a favourable estimate of us. All I ask is that they shall have the facts before them before they make any estimate of us.
What worries me at the moment is that we do not appear to realise that, while the responsibility for reaching the verdict is other people's, the responsibility for laying the facts before the jury, so to speak, is ours. We do not expect the average Englishman to spend his leisure

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hours in informing himself about the war efforts of our friends the Russians or the Americans. He expects them, by the usual methods of publicity—newspapers, radio, newsreels, and such like—to bring such knowledge to his attention. In the same way, I do not expect the average citizen of other countries to go out of his way to investigate the part played by Britain or the Empire in the war. We have to carry the facts to him. From the facts which are set before him he will consider his verdict and form his opinion. He will not, I venture to emphasise, give consideration to facts which are not set before him. It seems to me that this has a doubly unfortunate result. Not only does he miss half of the story about us, but he may accept cunning falsehoods and unsavoury suggestions from the enemy which the missing facts would have counteracted, if only he had known them; but we did not tell him.
What I ask is: Can we honestly say that we have done everything in our power to put before the rest of the world the truth about Britain and the Empire, about our performance in the war and our intentions in the peace? Or are there still a few countries where our case is liable to go by default? We can only judge by results in these matters. We may be told that we are spending more money upon this sort of thing than we have ever spent before, but results are still what count. I hope that we are spending more money. We may be told that we have a new system of such propaganda—call it what you will. I hope we have, but the acid test is still, does it work? It seems to me, in all humility, that, judging by results, we are entitled perhaps to say that it does not. A monumental ignorance about Britain and the British Empire prevails, not only among neutrals, which is quite unnecessary, but among our friends, which is unforgivable.
What, for instance, is the opinion of the average Russian about Britain to-day? I hope that I am misinformed but I believe his opinion is that we are the people—I am talking about the Russian man-in-thestreet—who declined to launch a large-scale, and incidentally unprepared, land offensive in Europe last year. Not the people who pushed 19 vast convoys through the Arctic to his aid, to say nothing of those which perished in the attempt; not the people who sent equipment
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for 20 amoured divisions, 3,000,000 pairs of boots and 111 aeroplanes for every 100 we promised and other supplies too vast and varied to be chronicled—and no "cash and carry" basis either; not the people who in the dark days when his country had a peace pact with what is now the common enemy, took the decision to build the bombers and train the crews which, even now, as the Prime Minister told us, are drawing four German fighters out of five from the Eastern front. If the average Russian does not take these things into consideration when he makes his assessment of us, whose fault is it? Certainly not his. Probably he has never heard of these things. I suggest the responsibility must be ours and only ours.
I do not want to catalogue the whole sorry list of misconceptions about Britain and the Empire in various parts of the world but I think one or two more should be mentioned. I refer particularly to those which exist among the Americans, who by mutual desire as well as mere expediency are our natural Allies. I am assured that tens of millions of American citizens to-day are under the impression that the British Empire is a series of possessions held in dictatorial subjection by England, and that the Middle East campaign was fought by us predominantly with Empire troops. I am assured that many millions of others have no idea that, in the dark days when we stood alone, we sold out nearly all our foreign investments, and that vast aircraft plants in the United States to-day, which will come in so handy after the war, were conceived and financed by Britain. And many millions of others, I am assured, are under the impression that we might let them down in the Japanese war. How surprised they would be if they ever came to realise that we have lost far more in the Far East than they ever dreamed of possessing.
A distinguished traveller who is a friend of mine came back from the United States the other day from a lecture tour and told me how he was approached in one town by two school-teachers. They said, "We are friends of Britain, we are well disposed towards you, but there is one criticism which honesty compels us to make. It is about your administration in India." My friend braced himself for the assault, and very earnestly they said, "We cannot agree with your caste system there."

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Whose fault is this shattering ignorance about Britain? [An HON. MEMBER: "American education."] Certainly not the Americans'. Never in history was there a race of more eager searchers after knowledge, more ardent accumulators of facts, than our friends the Americans. The fault is ours and ours alone. It seems to me that our whole system of public relations, call it what you will, upon which the future must so much depend, needs overhauling and perhaps completely reshaping. I think we ought to have some organisation calculated to detect, track down and refute any lie or misconception published or widely held about Britain or the Empire in any part of the world. I should like to say to people, "We do not in any way seek to make up your minds for you. That is your business. But we do respectfully ask, before you come to any conclusion about us, that you will have before you the following indisputable facts. That is all." I suggest that our case is one to be proud of. I say that it will bear examination by anybody. It never fails to make an impression on those who hear the truth of it, and personally I am very grieved when I see it, as I Think, in danger of going by default.
It is not my place at the present time to offer more detailed suggestions on this matter. It may be that hon. Members will feel that I have exaggerated the position and that things are not as bad as I have tried to make out, and that everything is being done to put Britain's case before the rest of the world before they form their opinion about us. Or it may be felt that perhaps the whole matter is not as important as I try to make out—in which case I shall be much relieved. But if hon. Members do agree with the point of view I have tried to outline, that if we do not put our case to the rest of the world certainly nobody else will, then I hope that they will agree with me in trying to press the Government to take more vigorous and more militant and more active measures to spread abroad in the world the truth about Britain and the British Empire.
Mr. Stokes: It is my privilege to offer the congratulations of the House to the hon. and gallant Member for Acton (Captain Longhurst) on his maiden speech. May I congratulate him on getting
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off the tee with such confidence, in keeping with his world wide reputation as a golfer. Particularly I congratulate him on the long shot he took down the middle when he emphasised the importance of making clear to the world what we have done in the war and more particularly what proposals we propose to make as our contribution to the peace. I am sure we look forward to hearing from him again in the future. I want to look back to three of the speeches in this Debate, one of which I can pass over quickly, that of the hon. and gallant Member for North Salford (Major Morris), who came back from Burma and complained of the critics who have been complaining about the central direction of the war. My difficulty was that I did not understand how he knew the grounds of complaint as he had not been at the centre.
I want to deal with part of a speech made by the hon. Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Griģģ). I took no exception to what he said, except that I think it lacked reality. I wondered whether I was really alive when I listened to some of it, as, for example, when he said we have the reputation of being Isolationists. It seems to me that for the last 300 years we have done more than anybody else to put our fingers into someone else's pie. That is why that statement to me lacked reality. He complained in particular that we had not entered into a Russian Alliance in 1939. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will tell the facts about what did happen in 1939. It seems to me that it is time the White Paper in relation to what is known as the Strang Mission was given some publicity, but on the question of Poland I more or less agreed with him—and with the Prime Minister for once. It seems to me that the recommendation that the Poles should now willingly accept what their friends wanted them to accept in 1920 is probably the best solution of a very difficult problem. But I join issue with him at once when he gets back to the old issue of power politics, as, for instance, when he ended by saying it was essential that we should have a strong France. He thought that we must not discuss foreign policy in this House, and he was prepared to hand over the control of our affairs to practically a dictatorship and leave foreign negotiations to be conducted behind the scenes. I support my hon. Friend the Member for North Lambeth (Mr. G. Strauss), who made an

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excellent speech as to what might be going on behind the scenes of the Moscow and Teheran Conferences with regard to the partition of Germany, about which I will speak later.
I want to refer to the Prime Minister's speech, because I think it was the Senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) who said that this Debate is really a debate between the House and the Prime Minister. May I say at the outset I took a gloomy view of his speech? It seemed to me to lack any ray of hope or any real inspiration as to the future for the peoples of the world. There seemed to be a lack of any statement of real principle, economic or otherwise, and it seemed to me that after five months' absence it was really a great opportunity lost when all the world was waiting for something much more constructive and indicative of the future than he was able to give. He emphasised a thing that I have realised all along—I have thought that the war would not start until Easter, 1944—that we were quite wrong to think that there is going to be a sudden collapse and an end of the war in a very short time. I remember his statement in 1942 when he told us "the ridge was in sight." It may be that we mounted that ridge and toppled over it and found some more ridges ahead of us. It seemed to me that his metaphor was not as sound as it might have been. [Interruption.] War is like that, it might be. His policy appeared to me, to summarise his speech, to be back to monarchy in Europe and Imperialism, the tearing up of the Atlantic Charter, a dictated peace and another war in the future. I listened in the greatest gloom. I say to the Deputy Prime Minister that the tearing up of the Atlantic Charter indicated in the Prime Minister's speech is entirely contrary to the opinion he himself has stated and which the Labour Party stands for. The right hon. Gentleman himself said on 18th November, 1939:
"There shall be no dictated peace. We have no desire to humiliate, crush or defeat the German nation. All idea of revenge or punishment must be excluded. Peace, to be lasting, must result from the agreement of all, and not from the dictation of a few nations."
With which sentiment I entirely agree, and I trust he still holds it. He went on, on 9th February, 1940:
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"We are opposed to any attempt from outside to break up Germany. We do not seek the humiliation or dismemberment of your country. . We wholeheartedly desire to welcome you without delay into the peaceful collaboration of civilised nations."
I did not read the Prime Minister's speech as conforming in any way whatever to these sentiments. He talked, as did my hon. Friend the Member for North Lambeth, about the agreement with Premier Stalin to cut up Germany. That is entirely contrary to what all of us on this side of the House stand for, and I should like the Prime Minister to know that a great number of us will resist it absolutely to the death. We are not going to have anything of the kind. It will lead to a great deal of trouble if anything of that kind is attempted. The Prime Minister went on to re-emphasise again that very foolish and unwise cry "unconditional surrender." So far as I can understand what he said, it meant and means the complete negation of the Atlantic Charter, which is the only positive declaration we have had given to us since this war started. Clause 2 of the Charter says:
"They (the signatories) desire to see no territorial changes that do not accord with the freely expressed wishes of the peoples concerned."
But the Foreign Secretary told us the other day that the Atlantic Charter does not apply to enemy territories. Then whom does it apply to? It is obvious we shall not give up our territories. It becomes a farce, and it means that the Government are running out of their declared policy of standing by the Atlantic Charter. My view of the Charter is that it is not good enough and ought to go a good deal further, but certainly it must not be abandoned. The fourth Clause refers to enemy territories specifically. This article says that the contracting parties
"will endeavour, with due respect for their existing obligations, to further enjoyment by all States, great or small, victor or vanquished, of access on equal terms to the trade and to the raw materials of the world which are needed for their economic prosperity."
If those points had been emphasised in the Prime Minister's speech, more would have been done to make use of that invaluable propaganda weapon of which we have made so little use up to now. I approach the subject entirely from the point of view of the fighting soldier. In the last war, I remember the three years I spent in France, wondering what the

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war was about and where we were going to. The average soldier does not want war to go on: he wants to get it over as soon as possible, to get a satisfactory peace; but he looks to the politicians at home to see that the peace is satisfactory. He believes that if the peoples in the enemy territories really knew the kind of peace to be offered them at the end of the war, that would do a lot to make it easier for him to overcome his enemies from the military point of view.
It seems to me that the cry of "unconditional surrender" is most unwise. Historically, it has proved futile. You have only to look back to the South African War to see what happened there. Lord Milner declared for unconditional surrender, and two years later Lord Kitchener had to abandon that position at Vereeniging when he made peace with the same Boer leaders. If we turn to the Italian front, we can see what happened there as the result of declaring to the Italian people that we would accept unconditional surrender and nothing else. We missed the bus. We spent six weeks talking about the conditions of unconditional surrender, and, as a result, we have not got so far militarily as we hoped to get. That "soft under-belly" is proving very much like a bristling porcupine. As my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) said, in an admirable speech on the subject, we continued to bomb the revolutionaries after they had given in, and after the appeal of the Prime Minister, who told them that they had one man and only one man to blame for what had befallen them, and that that man was Mussolini. Then, after they had unconditionally surrendered, we turned them over to Badoglio and the King. That simply reduced to farce any assurances given by this country. I do not want to delay the House by quoting reams of paper in support of my claim that unconditional surrender is an unwise cry; I leave it there, pointing out that history has proved it so in the past, and I am sure that when we look back in future on that declaration my view will be endorsed.
It would seem to me essential that we should make it quite clear to the German people what attitude we are going to adopt as and when any kind of occupation of Europe by us takes place. My mind goes back to the ridiculous rate of
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the lira in Italy. A.M.G.O.T. fixed the rate at 400. In consequence, food has become so dear that the Italian people cannot buy it, and we have to feed them. Food has to be bought, with borrowed money, shipped to Italy, and given to the starving people. It would have a tremendous effect on the enemy peoples if we make it clear to them what their economic set-up is going to be in the event of complete military defeat, and if they were told that they were not going to be the victims of that appalling inflation which they experienced after the last war. Since we assured the Italians that, if they gave in, everything would be all right—and here let me remind the House that President Roosevelt assured them that accepting unconditional surrender did not mean that their country was going to be ravaged and everything knocked down—may I ask, do we really intend to go through Italy, on a voyage of destruction? It may be that some of these beautiful monuments were bound to be bombed to pieces. I do not complain about the destruction in the front line, which is inevitable in a war, such as happened to the monastery at Cassino—and here I would like to put on record my admiration of the fine words of the Abbot of Downside—but, when it comes to area bombing in the rear, we should take thought. We are told that bombing is very precise, and that there is no difficulty whatever in hitting military targets, but I beg our Government to take thought before destroying wonderful places like Florence. If our bombing is really so accurate, it is just as easy to hit a railway line outside the town as to hit it inside the town; and, as an engineer, I would point out that it is a darned sight more difficult to repair it outside the town.
As I have now got to the bombing question—and my views on this are well known—may I say that I listened with some astonishment to the Prime Minister talking about "the honour of bombing Berlin"? The dictators all use the same language: not long ago Mussolini talked about "the honour of bombing London." It may be that it has to be done, but, although mine is not a popular view, I have a fear in my heart that the flattening out of these towns of Germany is going to stand as a lasting disgrace to our name; and the people of this country are very much concerned about the methods which

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are used. It is all very well for the Prime Minister to go, as he did the other day, to bombholes in London and say, "It is quite like old times." I do not find that to be the point of view of the average person. It is all very well for the Government, with dugouts costing a couple of million pounds to which they can go, but I think His late Majesty King George V best expressed the view of the people of this country on this subject. The story is told that the present Prime Minister—I think he was then First Lord of the Admiralty—in an interview with the King, in 1917, said, "You know, Your Majesty, I think it would have a most stimulating effect on the population if the Germans bombed London." To which His Majesty replied, "That may very well be, Mr. Churchill, but it would have a most depressing effect on me." The truth is that the mass of the people in all countries finds it extremely depressing. The important thing that makes it so vitally serious is that, as the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson) said yesterday, it opens up the whole question of the principles for which we are fighting. Let us not forget the contents of a Note handed to the British Ambassador in Moscow on 25th October, 1939 So far as I know, this attitude of the Russians has not been revoked since—I do not know. The note said:
"It is known that the universally-recognised principles of international law do not permit the air bombardment of the peaceful population, women, children and aged people."
It would be interesting to hear whether the Russians have changed their attitude. I am not complaining of the immediate territory in the neighbourhood of the front line being destroyed. That cannot be helped. I have myself seen the most horrible and ghastly sights. But I protest against the awful stories which we read of these mass bombardments, of children on fire and people roasting by the hundred in the shelters, while we are claiming all the time that we are not going in for indiscriminate bombing. We are going in for indiscriminate bombing; and we should tell our people so, in order that they may know what is done in their name.
I agree with the hon. Member for Mossley in questioning whether it is strategically sound to divert for this purpose equipment which is needed for the military prosecution of the war. He talked
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of the absence of long-distance fighters. Presumably he meant that the whole position in Italy might have been different if long-distance fighters had been available. I am thinking also of the absence of dive-bombers in the Pacific. One day there will be a terrific battle in the Pacific; and what shall we do then for our men on the ships? Whatever we say about the accuracy of our bombing, the only really accurate bombing is dive-bombing. If we go into that naval battle without carriers with properly equipped dive-bombers, I tremble to think of the effect on our gallant men and the loss of ships. I remember the struggle some of us had to get sufficient bombers to protect our Western Approaches. I would like to say to the hon. and gallant Member for North Salford (Major Morris) that the critics had a great deal to say about ships in convoy being left unprotected while this indiscriminate bombing of German towns was going on. The critics have been greatly justified in many of the criticisms that they have aimed at the Government. The House may not like it—it will probably laugh—but it is true that I had an overwhelming letter of praise the other day—which one day I will read to the House—saying how gratified the soldiers who battled all the way from El Alamein to Tunis have been at the action of those of us who were fighting the Government about the inadequacy of British built tanks.
It seems to me that we are now at a vital point. The Prime Minister, as I understood his speech, has thrown all principle to the winds. All the ideals for which we started this war have gone. We started off to defend Poland; we are now going to cut her up. We are now giving lumps of Germany away to Poland. That way lies war !
It is about time that some positive declaration of aims was made. I and some of my hon. Friends have said for weeks and months and years that we should do something to make the population on the other side disintegrate from their leaders, instead of, by the parrot cry of "unconditional surrender," reinforcing them behind Hitler. The Prime Minister, in 1941, used these words:
"I said the other day that four-fifths of the human race were on our side. It may well be an under-estimate. Just these gangs and cliques of wicked men and their military or party organisations have been able to bring these hideous evils upon mankind."

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I wonder how many of those four-fifths are still with us as a result of our complete lack of policy. He did not yesterday hold out one glimmer of hope to the ordinary people of the world. I wish we could have some declaration from the Government which would tell us, friends, neutrals and enemies alike, what contribution we are going to make when the conflagration comes to an end.
I and a great many of my hon. Friends here and millions of people outside are extremely suspicious of the Government. My own point about it is that the Government have not got the same aim as the people. They do not want the peace that the people want, and they do not dare to say positively what kind of peace they are contemplating or reveal to the country the secret negotiations now going on. I urge that we should have some constructive statement soon, and I warn the Prime Minister that the country is on its toes about this matter. There is a feeling of frustration. Ideals have been dropped. The Prime Minister said yesterday that we must not think of ideology. Ideals, in my view, should be clung on to in war. What are we fighting for? Will the Foreign Secretary tell us that it is not only unconditional surrender and the carving up of Germany which is the aim of the Government, but that a statement will be made soon on economic post-war policy which will help to bring about peace earlier than at present seems likely.
Mr. Boothby: I should like at the outset of the comparatively few remarks which I propose to make to the House to make it plain to hon. Members, and particularly to the hon. Member who has just sat down, that I do not claim any privilege of being a Front Bencher. I have taken the view that when a Debate is taking place of minor importance, or in Committee, it is permissible for an hon. Member to sit on the Front Bench who is not a Member of the executive of the Labour Party; but I would like to assure my hon. Friends that I claim no right to do so on important occasions, unless of course, I am elected a Member of the executive of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
Mr. A. Bevan: Is the hon. Member speaking as a back bencher?
Mr. Boothby: As a back bencher, yes. This Debate has covered a very wide field. It has now been turned into a Debate on foreign policy. It started as a Debate on the whole conduct of the war, on strategy, and on home politics; and I confess I think it is very difficult to separate foreign policy from home policy at the moment, or indeed from the actual stratigical conduct of the war. The whole thing is interlocked and interlaced, so I am going to make an attempt to touch very briefly on each aspect; and I want first to deal with what my hon. Friend who has just sat down said on the matter of bombing. I believe, on the strategical side, that the two decisions taken by the Prime Minister for which he deserves great credit, and which we can now see to have been at the highest level of strategical thought were, first of all, the decision heavily to reinforce our forces in North Africa at a time when this country was in a position of considerable weakness and even of danger; and secondly, the decision taken in 1941 to give a high priority to the construction of heavy 4-engine bombers which have produced the Bomber Command we have to-day. It is above all, to these decisions, and to the resolute determination with which he waged the war against the U-boats—at one time our most deadly menace—that the Prime Minister will ultimately be judged as a War Minister. I believe they are of far greater importance than the more spectacular political speeches of 1940, when he acted merely as the inspired interpreter of the nation's will to survive.
So far as the bombing policy is concerned, we have seen something of what happens when you saturate the enemy's defences. We have yet to see what will happen when, as I believe is possible, the fighter strength of the Luftwaffe is completely destroyed. Then, I am convinced, Germany could be subjugated, and we could win the war in two or three months, without invasion. I recognise the sincerity of the views held by my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes), who has just expressed them very forcibly; and I appreciate to the full what they mean to him. But I must say that I was very sorry to read this morning the observations made yesterday in the Debate by the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson). I have sat in this House for many years with the hon. Member for Mossley,

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and I have seldom known an occasion on which his political activities were not mischievous, and injurious to the interests of this country. One of the first, and worst, efforts was when he persuaded the Mining Association of Great Britain in 1926 to defy the Government, and to defy this House, and prevented the present Prime Minister from coming to a reasonable agreement with the miners at that time. The results of his policy are with us to this day. He has pursued with relentless and malignant hostility the only two contemporary statesmen of authentic genius that this country possesses; and I venture to say, even now, that had either the present Prime Minister or my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon (Mr. Lloyd George), or preferably both, been members of the administrations which, according to the hon. Member governed this country with so much vigour and vision between 1931 and 1939, we might not have fetched up on the beach at Dunkirk.
The hon. Member for Mossley is always looking for some method of chastising himself, presumably for the goad of his soul. I have no objection to that, but I do strongly object when he tries to introduce his private masochism into our public life. What worries him now, he says, is not the effect of the war upon the Germans, but upon ourselves; and he goes on to suggest that we regard revenge as, itself, a creditable thing and rather enjoy the thought of bombing open towns and women and children. That is merely untrue. What seems to me to be much worse than untrue, is when the hon. Member says that we have put the young men, who are now conducting our bombing offensive against Germany with a courage unparalleled in the annals of war, on the wrong side in this war.
The hon. Member for Ipswich never said anything like that. I think it was a wicked thing to say. The hon. Member for Mossley said he had knocked about among members of the R.A.F. I had the honour to serve as adjutant of a Bomber Squadron in the R.A.F., and I would like to say that these young men feel, and I think feel rightly, that they are the spearhead of the attack upon Germany by this country. If it were not for them, we should be leaving the Russians to do practically the whole job at the present time. They also feel, and I think
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rightly, that they are doing more than anyone else to bring this war, with all its slaughter and misery, to a speedy end. And I think it is monstrous for anyone in this House to say of these young men that they have been put on the wrong side in this war. I think it is necessary for some one to repudiate that statement emphatically.
I would like now to revert for a moment to the general question of strategy. Since Tunis and Sicily it has seemed to many of us that the politico-strategic decisions of the United Nations have fallen somewhat below the level of events. It is too early to give final judgments, but I would like to put one or two considerations forward to the House. First of all, the system of combined staffs has been much praised. I think we have also to recognise that it has its defects. It lacks the pervasive authority, the singleness of purpose, the driving power and the flexibility of a great individual commander, such as we see behind the great Russian offensive. What happens at these innumerable inter-allied and inter-Service staff meetings? None of us know; none of us can be told; but I think it reasonable to assume that every possible objection to a particular course of action is cogently advanced, and that the dangers of such a course are not overlooked. The result that must often follow is a compromise decision, a lack of flexibility, and slowness is action. [An HON. MEMBER: "Coalition."] Well, there you are. I am not suggesting the system should be replaced, but I do think that its defects should be realised.
What has taken place in the Mediterranean in the last few weeks and months? I should like to tell the House of a very interesting talk I had the other day with a young officer who has just escaped from Italy. He speaks fluent Italian, and got away from the Germans in the north of Italy at, and following, the time of Mussolini's collapse. He told me that at the time of the collapse the whole population of Northern Italy thought the war was over; and all came out in procession, and went to look for Union Jacks and United States flags. What happened? The next night we gave Milan the biggest bombing it ever had. I am in favour of the bombing policy, because I think it is the way we shall win the war; but I am not in favour of that. What worries me is that, whoever gave

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permission to carry out that raid could have had no conception of using the civilian population of Italy to liberate themselves from the German oppression.
The next thing he told me was that, for several weeks, the Germans had no forces at all in Northern Italy; and that, instead of dropping bombs, we should have been dropping arms. Even if we dropped a battalion or two it might have done some good. I feel that, when all the arguments are concluded, we missed a great political opportunity in Italy immediately after the request for an armistice. I agree with a great deal of what the hon. Member for Ipswich said about unconditional surrender. Technically, unconditional surrender is impossible; but here we come back to the Staff talks again. The Casablanca Conference decided we must have unconditional surrender, so unconditional surrender it had to be; and we went on arguing about it for eight weeks, when we should have been taking over Italy on any terms we could, and exploiting the tremendous political opportunity provided by the unexpected fall of Mussolini. May I remind the Foreign Secretary of two aphorisms of the late Lord Fisher, who was something of a military genius? The first was "The essence of war is speed"; and the second, "Prudence in war is imbecility." His Majesty's Government might well take those two observations into serious consideration.
I want to turn now from strategy to politics. The mood of 1940—when none were for a party and all were for the State—is fast disappearing in this country, and we have to face the fact. Why? Is it because the will to beat the enemy is less? The answer is an emphatic "No." Is it because the Government are not in possession of a policy or a theme? I think the country does feel this, to a considerable extent. Is it because the United Nations no longer appear to have a common purpose beyond the immediate defeat of the enemy? I think there is also some truth in that. I think Europe feels it, and many people in this country feel it. I believe the mischief began in this country when it was laid down that no measures were to be taken by the Government that might affront or upset either of the main political parties. That seems to me to be nonsense. It is the business of a Government
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to have a policy, and no Government can expect that everybody will agree with that policy. Nobody talked like that after Dunkirk, when the Government were accorded complete power over all property and persons in a few hours. [An HON. MEMBER: "For the prosecution of the war."] All right, for the prosecution of the war.
Now where has this policy led us? It has certainly led to many months of paralysis on the home front, where widespread speculation in land has gone on for months, unchecked by the Government to this day. It has led to what I maintain is a series of uneasy compromises in the coalfields, which have led to no good results; and, finally, it has led to the frame of mind which directs the civil servants not to speak to Sir William Beveridge because he is preparing a report on full employment after the war. That seems to me to be ludicrous. It seems as if the Government were afraid, or almost afraid, of having any kind of positive policy. Or do they think it does not matter? That is not the view of the men and women in the Forces. There was an excellent paragraph in a leading article in the "Observer" a fortnight ago—
"This is the first age in which it has been openly regarded as wrong for a nation, a Government, a party, or even a newspaper to have a policy. First, the fear of war, and then the war it caused, have been used to justify this denial of responsibility. Five U.S. Senators accused Britain of having a world design; and we are shocked, not, as we should be, because it is unhappily quite untrue, but because it is even suggested."
There is a very great deal to be said for that point of view. You cannot wage war without a policy, or without politics. War is politics; and, in the final analysis, an instrument for executing political policy. Unless you fight for political principles, and are convinced that there are no other means of making those principles prevail, it is madness to go to war at all.
The speech of the Senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) fascinated and interested the House yesterday. The hon. Member analysed our faults of omission and commission before the war in a most interesting manner. But I want to suggest that our supreme fault before the war was a reluctance, an almost invincible reluctance, on the part of the Government, the House, and the public, to face unpalatable facts. I think that

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was the worst thing of all. Perhaps the most unpalatable fact is that politics is, in fact, an exercise in power; and that you ought not to enter into commitments that you cannot implement, if necessary by force. Without power, you cannot achieve anything. The hon. Member went on to say that the main objective of our foreign policy should be to be trusted by the states of Europe. I agree. But what is, and always has been, the main ground of European mistrust of this country? I think it is that a great many people have always thought we were humbugs and hypocrites, and very often did not mean what we said.
I take, as a brief illustration, the Darlan affair, which, I think, lends colour to this view. When we gave him political power in North Africa, the faith in us of the underground movements in Europe was temporarily shattered; because they knew then, what we know now, that Darlan was a double-dyed traitor. [HON. MEMBERS: "We knew it then."] Well, we were not so sure. I come now to the question of Poland. I must say I find it very difficult to listen with patience to those who supported the Munich agreement indulging in a fit of morality about Poland. In the words of a very great man, "Let us clear our minds of cant upon this subject." At Munich, Hitler compelled Britain and France not only to sacrifice Czechoslovakia, but also their alliance with Russia, which was the only thing that could have saved Poland from subjugation, and the only thing that could have saved the world from war.
Mr. Pickthorn: Is the hon. Member suggesting that we had an alliance with Russia?
Mr. Boothby: I am suggesting that it was the Munich Agreement that definitely prevented us from having it, and that the way Russia was treated at that time made it inevitable that we could not have it. That was the first major victory of the aggressive Fascist States. We ordered the Czechs to hand over territory that did not belong to us, "for the sake of a quiet life." That may or may not have been an act of political expediency, but it was certainly an act of cynical political immorality. I go so far as to say that it is sanctimonious humbug to suggest that it was anything else.
With regard to our guarantee to Poland, it is very relevant, and not in the least
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impolitic, to consider the question of frontiers, from which the hon. Member for Lambeth, North (Mr. G. Strauss) ran away so hard, showing a lack of realism and a reluctance to face up to the facts characteristic of this country. Frontiers are relevant.
Mr. Bevan: My hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth North (Mr. G. Strauss) did not say that frontiers were of no consequence. He said that frontiers could not become a strategical defence of security.
Mr. Boothby: He also mentioned heavy machinery, economic well-being, and a good many other things, as being of greater importance than frontiers.
Mr. Bevan: I beg the hon. Member's pardon—
Mr. Boothby: That was the impression that he conveyed, and I will leave it to the OFFICIAL REPORT. I want to ask this question, which is frightfully important. When we guaranteed the independence of Poland in 1939, did we, for example, guarantee Vilna and Teschen? I hope we did no such thing. We strongly opposed the annexation of Vilna, in defiance of the Supreme Council, in 1919. I do not think that we could have agreed to the annexation of Teschen after Munich, when the Czechs were on their backs. I therefore deny that we are tied to any particular frontiers of Poland, and it is a mistake to think that we are. I agree that many hon. Members do not think so; but hon. Members on both sides, in this Debate, have maintained that we are bound to the present frontiers of Poland by the guarantee of 1939.
Mr. Lipson: The Prime Minister said that what we guaranteed was the independence of Poland.
Mr. Boothby: I agree. I cannot understand the attitude of hon. Members who were shocked by the Prime Minister's attempt to get agreement between Poland and Russia on the basis of the Curzon line in the East, and compensation for the Poles from Germany in the West. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will deal with this matter. Are we going into a Peace Conference regarding Bismarck's Reich as sacrosanct? It was a mushroom empire, founded on the most ruthless use of force. The people of

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Prussia, of Saxony, of Bavaria, of the Hanseatic towns, and, of the Rhineland, differ profoundly from each other. It was merely because Bismark "pulled a fast one" in 1870.
Mr. Bevan: Is the hon. Member proposing to separate some portions from Germany, in the interests of Germans? Will he ask the Germans, or will he act over their heads?
Mr. Boothby: On the question of separation, I would be in favour of asking Germans. I have long thought, and thought after the last war, that if Bavaria had been given the chance of separating from the rest of Germany, it would have been a good thing for Bavaria, for Europe, and for the world. I come back to the question of power. The victories of the Red Armies will liberate the peoples of central and Eastern Europe, and constitute the title-deeds of the Soviet Union to play a major part in the settlement of this part of the world, and also to security from attack in the future. Any peace in Eastern Europe which is not underwritten by Russia will be no peace at all.
Major - General Sir Alfred Knox: Is that because Russia is a destructive aggressor?
Mr. Boothby: No, it is because Russia has power. Let me quote Mr. Walter Lippmann on this point:
"A settlement which was such that it could be maintained only by aligning American, and also British, military power against Russia ill Europe would set the stage inexorably for a third world war."
I come, in conclusion, to the question which has dominated the Debate, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary: What is our foreign policy to-day? We have not yet had an answer to that question. Are we afraid of revolution in Europe? As against my hon. Friend, who made such an interesting speech, I do not think it is in accordance with British traditions to be afraid of revolution in Europe. At any rate it is not in the tradition of Fox, Palmerston or Gladstone. I can see the argument in favour of retaining Badoglio, for the time being. He has delivered the goods. [An HON. MEMBER: "Has he?"] By goods, I mean battleships and cruisers. But I can see little that can be said for retaining, even for the time being, that King
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who has delivered nothing but slavery and misery to his people for the last 20 years. Let me quote what the great Jefferson said:
"Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence and deem them like the are of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment. Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
The Prime Minister referred the other day to the "old cause of freedom and progress." It is a good cause. Let him base the policy of his Government upon it. Let him allow the people to argue and vote about domestic issues if they want to do so, as they clearly do. Let the twin planks of Government policy be reconstruction at home, and rebellion against Fascist tyranny abroad wherever it can take place; and let us help wherever we can. If the Prime Minister will do these things, he will become again a national and not a party leader, and he will restore the national unity for the testing days that lie ahead.
Mr. Hore-Belisha: My hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) has spoken, as always, easily, fluently, controversially and comprehensively. On to some of the fields upon which he travelled, I shall be obliged to follow him, but not, however, on to the strategic terrain which he surveyed. The trial of strength in Italy is, if one may borrow a metaphor, sub judice and, therefore, exempt from detailed examination and comment. The fighting on the Nettuno beachhead affords an opportunity for the trying out of methods which will be exploited by both sides on a wide scale in the forthcoming second front. Meanwhile, whatever questions may be in our minds, whether about the meteorological or geographical conditions, or why we did not advance after our initial success, can be left in suspense. General Alexander, from his past record, is entitled to the full confidence and trust of this House and the country.
Whatever may be the tactical lessons, or the strategic lessons, whether there may be advance or retreat, the doom of Hitlerite Germany is sealed. What is interesting to examine is not the past but the future; what use are we to make of that victory which, we have been told, may surprise us at any time? The effort of this nation is without parallel in the

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long story of human endurance and striving. We reached, perhaps, the highest point of our moral prestige when our physical strength was at its lowest. It would be a perverse fate, indeed, it, our unstinted efforts having made victory for the other United Nations possible, we were to have a vision less clear than theirs of what the nature of the peace should be. I propose to lay my reflections, such as they are, before the House and to point tentatively—for none may speak with confidence in these matters—to certain conclusions.
Our two great Allies with whom we share the responsibility for shaping the new world, strong as they are, are each determined to become stronger. Both are following an expansionist policy. I have not regard to words but to facts, and these, I propose to examine cursorily. Even before the United States entered the war, she was pushing the shield of the Monroe Doctrine further Eastwards, and, fortunate indeed it was for us, that that was the case. First to Greenland and Iceland—[HON. MEMBERS: "Eastwards?"] Eastwards from America. First, I should have said to the Caribbean—to the West Indies—then to Greenland and Iceland, and ultimately to Suez, to the Red Sea, and Eritrea. Since she entered the war, the inexorable requirements of her defence have dictated that she spread a network of outposts and stations to the Far East. Is it conceivable that the aerodromes so elaborately constructed, and the ground staff of a connection which enables the world now so conveniently to be circumnavigated, are to be disrupted at the end of the war? Is that conceivable? Is the whole system, necessary for the security of the United States and the discharge of her responsibilities, to be uprooted? Is the United States going to pick up her marbles and go home? If anyone were tempted to reach that conclusion, he would find a corrective to it in the permanent stake which is being inserted in Arabia and the neighbouring countries. This is the natural biological urge which drives all nations forward. A pipeline is to be constructed by the United States Government 1,250 miles long at a cost of 160,000,000 dollars from the Persian Gulf to the Mediterranean, and the declared official purpose—there is no concealment in these matters—is to sustain the United States Navy and Air Force not only in
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war but in peace, and to support the United States foreign policy. America is following in the 20th century the policy which we followed in the 19th century. That is very fortunate for us if the tendencies are frankly realised.
What of Russia? Parallel with the military growth has gone an enlargement of the foreign policy. It has been stated in Moscow that the Soviet Union intend to exert in peacetime on world affairs an influence corresponding to the investment which they have made in war. Who can complain of that? It is, however, an expansionist policy. There is a policy towards neighbours. My hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg), in his most interesting and suggestive speech, stated that the policy of Russia towards her neighbours had been defined in some speeches from which I think he read extracts. I am going to look at the facts because the Russians know what they are doing, and they are quite candid about it. Some of Russia's neighbours have been incorporated in Russia already. The other neighbours are to enjoy independence, but the crucial question is, What does independence mean in this context? That is the crucial question. Independence can be enjoyed on three precisely defined conditions. The first is, that these independent nations do not group themselves together in such a way as to form what is called a cordon sanitaire. The second condition is that their frontiers correspond with the requirements of Russia's strategic security. The third is that they have Governments which are well-disposed towards Russia.
There is no concealment; that is the policy of Russia towards her neighbours. The illustration of it is now being afforded in the case of Poland. It was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham that we went to war to preserve the independence of Poland. I do not think we went to war for any such reason. We went to war to substantiate the principle of negotiation. We were not adhesive to any particular Polish frontier. Was that frontier to be revised by the free consent of the peoples concerned or was the solution to be imposed by force? That was the issue. I take it that my right hon. Friend's opportune restatement that His Majesty's Government will not consent to any territorial adjustments, except by way of a freely negotiated settlement with the peoples concerned, still holds, and

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must hold. I think my right hon. Friend showed wisdom and courage in restating that proposition.
Mr. Riley: Who restated it?
Mr. Hore-Belisha: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, the other day. I hope what we heard yesterday about the Curzon line is not to be taken as prejudicing in advance that freely negotiated settlement. It would, indeed, be paradoxical and unjust if, having assisted Poland to protect her western frontier from a slight revision, we were to press her contrary to her own intentions and the powers of her Government to sacrifice one-third of her country in the east. I quite agree—and I think the House must agree—that it is desirable that a working accommodation should be reached between these two countries. I have no doubt that under the experienced and impartial handling of my right hon. Friend the conditions will be created in which such an accommodation can be reached. But what I want to assure myself of is this: that we stand were we have always stood in this matter—in favour of the principle of negotiation. If that principle is sacrificed in any particular then there is no assurance that the new world will be any better than the old. I only pause to make that observation because I think hon. Members should speak their minds on this question in order that there may be no mistake about what British public opinion might be.
There is the wider Russian foreign policy. There is the constitutional revision. Whatever the internal implications—
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): I hope my right hon. Friend will allow me to interrupt so that there shall not be any misunderstanding. He was not implying, I am sure, in what he said, and in his remarks about what I said—by which, of course, I stand—that His Majesty's Government themselves would not be entitled to have an opinion, and express that opinion to their Allies.
Mr. Hore-Belisha: I have no desire to suggest that His Majesty's Government should not have an opinion. I want to assure myself on the statement that during the war no territorial rearrangements will
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be recognised unless they are freely negotiated.
Mr. Stokes: From behind the scenes?
Mr. Hore-Belisha: The Polish Government are in a difficult position. Being an emigré Government, they suffer from certain inhibitions which might not govern other Governments.
Mr. Mack: Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that the present Polish emigré Government rightfully represents the people of Poland?
Mr. Hore-Belisha: I suggest that they do in the sense that other emigré Governments represent their people, as, for instance, Dr. Benes' Government represent Czechoslovakia.
Mr. Stokes: They are not.
Mr. Hore-Belisha: Well, they are the only Government with whom it is possible to deal. A treaty was made with the Polish Government, not only by ourselves but by the Russians. I feel satisfied with what my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary says if he reiterates that declaration. I have confidence in the impartiality of his judgment and I wish that the Poles also shall have that confidence. Therefore, I hope that the reference to the Curzon Line is not to be taken as prejudging that case. If it is to be so taken, then the good offices are, in some sense, compromised.
Before I leave this question of Poland may I say—because I think it is one's duty at this juncture to say what one thinks in these matters—that there is a proposal to compensate Poland for an adjustment of her boundaries on the East in favour of Russia by a gain of territory at the expense of Germany on the West. None of us in this House can have any tender feelings towards Germany, nor can anybody be so narrow as to hold the opinion that frontiers can never be adjusted. Of course they can be adjusted. I only want to enter this caveat. If it is proposed to resort to the uprooting of a great bulk of the German population and its transference somewhere else, then I think there is a risk that you will create another irridenta in Europe.
Sir Malcolm Robertson: What does my right hon Friend mean by uprooting of Germans? From what part of Germany?
Mr. Hore-Belisha: I say that if there is a proposal to uproot a bulk of the German population—
Sir M. Robertson: From which part?
Mr. Hore-Belisha: From East Prussia. If that is the proposal I say that we must be careful about the creation of a new irridenta. I do not wish at this stage to say any more on that point.
To come to the wider Russian policy, whatever is the constitutional revision, whatever effects it may be intended to have internally, it will also have an external effect. It is directed to the remedying of the essential weakness of the Treaty of Versailles, namely, the proliferation of small independent sovereign nations which cannot defend themselves or protect their economic entity. It offers to such small nations the possibility of protection within the Soviet system, within the Soviet Union. That is bound to have a transforming effect in Eastern Europe.
Mr. McGovern: What nations is the right hon. Gentleman talking about?
Mr. Hore-Belisha: The small neighbours of Russia are invited to enter the Soviet Union upon the terms announced under the constitutional revision. That is bound to transform the framework of Eastern Europe.
Mr. McGovern: When the right hon. Gentleman talks about free negotiation is he aware that one of the greatest dangers is that the Soviet Union will reject the emigré Governments and will select and train Governments of their own for these territories and proclaim that as free negotiation?
Mr. Hore-Belisha: I have passed that point and I do not desire to add to what I have said upon it. The framework of Eastern Europe is going to be altered. There is no alternative before these nations. If they wish to enjoy protection, they must join the Soviet Union. There is no alternative scheme. I want to suggest that we also should have a policy in regard to Europe. I suggest that it should be an alternative policy and, if possible, one propounded in complete agreement with our Ally. The institution of small sovereignties in Europe has no roots in the traditions of Europe. It is a modern conception, although from the bitter
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memories and experiences we have of the wars caused by it we must think that it is almost a law of nature. It is not. It is modern. After each war in Europe—the Thirty Years' War, the wars of Louis XIV and the Napoleonic Wars—there have been revived projects for bringing unity to Europe, for restoring the conception of Europe as a single family. Even in the Anglo-Russian treaty of 1805 there was a provision for the establishment of a federative system in Europe and it was laid down in a Clause that except under such a system there could be no protection for small nationalities. Owing to other developments, thought was diverted from this hopeful proposal.
In 1919 President Wilson dominated the peace settlement with his conception of autonomous and unqualified sovereignty, and 13 new such sovereignties were created, but it was quickly apparent that the system would never work. M. Briand in 1930 put forward a scheme for federative union which would give to Europe the same solidarity as exists in the United States. The proposal was widely supported. It was put forward by the French Government, supported by Belgium, Poland and other countries and widely supported in Europe, but broke down upon the question of whether the Soviet Union and Turkey should be incorporated within it. The ground is in good condition to-day for the replanting of this seed. There are only two possibilities for British policy in Europe. One is political federation and the other economic federation. If you cannot achieve the political federation then for heaven's sake let us have economic federation, the outline of which I laid before the House recently. Unify the services of Europe which are common to every country in Europe, namely, the railways, the post office. Institute a central bank with a single currency, and regionalise or perhaps continentalise electricity and other services. But we must have a policy for Europe, otherwise the Russian proposal holds the field.
There is no alternative for the small nations of Eastern Europe except to incorporate themselves in this great multilateral Soviet State. Far from complaining of the Soviet's proposal, I think it should stimulate us to act upon the same lines. General Smuts has proposed that Britain herself should become involved in Europe. He wants to fill in our moat.

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I think that is a very dangerous development, which would not be necessary if we had a federative system in Europe, either political or economic. Britain has everything to lose by unsettlement on the Continent. It diverts her efforts. She cannot enjoy prosperity while there is unsettlement in Europe. She has already lost much of her strength through two great wars. She must not run the risk of a third. Therefore, she must have a positive policy equivalent to the Russian policy in the East of Europe.
Again, this Russian constitutional reform should be noticed by our Empire. It is strange that, at a time when we are finding it difficult to get any unitary principle in our Empire, the Soviet Union should feel itself centrally so strong that it can devolve some of its powers. It is to be noted that, whether at Moscow or Teheran or anywhere else, this country goes to the council chamber as Britain and not as the representative of the Empire which she is entitled to lead. It becomes pressing, if we are to play our full part in the world, to bring about some articulation of this Empire. The minimum requirements are that there should be a single foreign policy and a single defensive policy. This is sheer commonsense.
In the world of to-day events move too swiftly for improvisation to take the place of forethought. We must unify this Empire for a material reason also. Why should this Island bear the whole cost, as it did in peace-time, of Imperial Defence? Some criticism has been made to-day of the hesitations which have occasionally characterised our foreign policy in the past. Is it realised that at each stage the Government must endeavour to make sure that the Empire will agree? When Mr. Chamberlain is criticised for not having brought this country into war earlier, is it realised that he might have endeavoured to save Europe but might have lost the Empire? It is urgent that this Russian example should be followed with appropriate modifications both in Europe and in the Empire. I know that these are questions of great perplexity. They are problems which baffle human minds. The Government have great cares. Ministers bear them as lightly as may be. It is easier to propound solutions in these matters than to apply them. The spirit in which I put these proposals forward is, therefore, one of understanding. I
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advance them in the hope that we may be able to play in peace, that high and pre-eminent part to which our efforts in this war have entitled us.
Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I should like at the outset of my remarks to echo what was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) in welcome to the Prime Minister in his review of the foreign situation which he gave us yesterday. My right hon. Friend the Member for Devonport (Mr. Hore-Belisha) will forgive me if I do not follow him into the very important but specialised points to which he devoted his interesting speech. I want to come back to what I conceive to be the three major points in the speech of the Prime Minister. The first point which struck me as being of the greatest importance was the growing preponderance of the Allied Forces over the forces of the enemy. The striking facts which he gave us, including the great part which Britain has played in the past and the increasing part which will obviously be played by all the three Allies in future, demonstrated unmistakably that any hope in Germany of their victory in the war must be finally laid aside. It may be that they can still inflict injury upon our fighting forces and upon our civilians at home. Grievous as that may be, it will not alter the fact that the possibility of turning the scales once again in their own favour has gone for ever. That does not, of course, mean that victory for us is in any sense already within our grasp.
We have exceedingly difficult problems to face in the future that will exercise all our capacity, all our man-power and all our courage and determination. The country has had some misgivings in the matter of the Anzio bridgehead and some feeling that the unexpectedly favourable opening was not exploited to the fullest possible extent. It hopes that the lessons which that invasion has taught will be fully borne in mind in the much larger problems of the invasion of Europe known as the second front. This House would welcome an assurance from the Foreign Secretary that in that dangerous and hazardous enterprise, to which we are necessarily committed, there will be no rigidity of design or fixity of time-table which will prevent us taking advantage of any favourable opportunity which the hazard of events may bring about.

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The second great point which emerged from the Prime Minister's speech was the growing strength of the weapons of destruction. Since the war began the power of destruction on both sides has enormously increased. Every day that the war continues new, more powerful and deadly weapons are being brought into play. This cannot but be a very alarming thought to the minds of all people who love their fellow-men and the material constructions that their civilisation has created. We have already seen in Italy a considerable part of that fair land destroyed by war. We do not know how much more will be destroyed before the war comes to an end. When we come to the countries which are liable to be over-run in the future, to the fair land of France and to the Low Countries, our minds are sensitive to what is likely to take place. I do not give these facts in order that we may be deterred from whatever military action may be necessary, but I think that the House must brace itself to face them. They will have a bearing on what I propose to say in the later part of my speech.
The third essential fact in the Prime Minister's announcement was the complete uncertainty as to the length and further duration of the war. If I, in a position of far greater ignorance, may venture an opinion, it would be that the date on which the war will end will depend on the character of that end. It may be that the war will end owing to a definite defeat in the field and the rout and retreat of the German military forces. It may be; on the other hand, that it will arise from a collapse at the centre of the whole Hitlerite State. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson), in a thought-provoking speech, stressed the importance of military defeat on the future mentality of the German people. I cannot imagine that even he would regret a coup d'état inside Germany if that had the effect of shortening the war. In any case, the German armies have already been beaten in Russia, in Africa, in Sicily and in Southern Italy, and the degree of defeat inflicted on them in other theatres of the war will not radically alter the facts or for that matter the power of some future German statesman, if he be so minded, to misrepresent them as has already been done with regard to the events of 1918.
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Seeing that Germany has not now any real chance of staving off defeat it is not merely in the interest of the Allies but in the interests of the German people themselves that they should overthrow Hitler and bring the war to an end at the earliest possible moment. It is, of course, this that Hitler is most concerned to prevent. Only the other day he told the German people that the only choice before them was victory or annihilation. If that were really true it is a pity that he did not enlighten the people on this point at the time when it was still open to Germany, in peace, to hold an honoured place in the councils of the nations, before he let loose the catastrophe which has already devastated great parts of Europe and which is now beginning to devastate the German Reich itself. In fact, his statement is a lie, as many statements that he has made in other fields have been. He is once more endeavouring to mislead his people. The choice before them is not victory or annihilation. It is true, of course, that he and other war criminals who are responsible for inflicting this great wrong upon mankind and for the brutalities which have been an integral part of it cannot be allowed to go unpunished. It is true that the victims of his aggression cannot be expected to restore Germany to the position she held before the war, or to leave open to her the possibility of repetition of those horrors at some future time, but the Allies do not contemplate the annihilation of the German people. The suggestion is inherently impossible, and has in fact been explicitly repudiated by every one of the major Allies.
So far as Russia is concerned, I will take a quotation from an order of the day by Stalin, given on 23rd February, 1942, on the occasion of the 24th anniversary of the Red Army. In that Order Stalin said:
"Sometimes, the foreign Press engages in prattle to the effect that the Red Army's aim is to exterminate the German people and destroy the German State. That, of course, is a stupid lie and a senseless slander on the Red Army. The Red Army has not, and cannot have, any such idiotic aim. The aim of the Red Army is to oust the German occupationists from our country and liberate Soviet soil from German Fascist invaders. It is very-likely that the war for the liberation of our Soviet Land will result in the ousting or destruction of Hitler's clique. We would welcome such an outcome, but it would be ridiculous to identify Hitler's clique with the

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German people and the German State. Experience of history shows that Hitless come and go, whereas the German people and the German State remain."
He confirmed this on 6th November, 1942, when, on the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the Soviet State, he said:
"We have no such aim as to destroy Germany, for it is impossible to destroy Germany, just as it is impossible to destroy Russia."
As to the United States, President Roosevelt said in the course of a radio fireside talk on 12th February, 1942:
"We have made it entirely clear that the United States seeks no mass reprisals against the population of Germany, or Italy, or Japan, but the ringleaders and their brutal henchmen must be named and apprehended, and tried in accordance with the traditional processes of criminal law."
In this country, and in this House, hon. Members will recall a speech in which the Prime Minister, referring to any such idea, spoke of, "not staining our victorious arms by ill usage of the vanquished people." Only yesterday, in his speech in this House, he used these words:
"Unconditional surrender means that the victors have a free hand. It does not mean that they are entitled to behave in a barbarous manner nor that they wish to blot out Germany from among the nations of Europe. If we are bound, we are bound by our own consciences to civilisation. We are not to be bound to the Germans as the result of a bargain struck. That is the meaning of unconditional surrender.'"
In making that quotation I should like to make a passing reference to a few previous words in the speech. In that same speech, the Prime Minister said:
"There will be, for instance, no question of the Atlantic Charter applying to Germany as a matter of right and barring territorial transferences."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd February, 1944; col. 699, Vol. 397.]
I think it should be clearly realised that when the Prime Minister is speaking of the Atlantic Charter not applying to Germany he is referring to paragraphs 2 and 3. In order to make that point clear I will read them. Paragraph 2 is:
"They desire to see no territorial changes which do not accord with the freely expressed wishes of the peoples concerned."
Paragraph 3 is:
"They respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live."
Then there is a further sentence. As I understand it, the Prime Minister did not mean to exclude from applying to Germany
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paragraph 4, which reads as follows:
"They will endeavour, with due respect for their existing obligations, to further enjoyment by all States, great or small, victor or vanquished, of access on equal terms to the trade and to the raw materials which are needed for their economic prosperity."
The Prime Minister clearly did not intend to indicate that paragraph. The same applies to paragraphs 5, 6 and 7, which are expressions of wish.
In my submission it is clear from those utterances that a German people content to live in peace with their neighbours will have a right to share the economic heritage of mankind; but so long as the German people sustain their leaders in aggression and brutal onslaught on the liberties of other nationalities, the Allies have no alternative but to destroy their armed forces wherever they may be found and to destroy in Germany the means by which she wages war. It is for the German people to decide whether they will be annihilated in war or take their share in building up a peaceful and prosperous world.
That brings me to my final point, as to what constitutes a prosperous world. Without world prosperity, reaching down to the common people in every land, there can be no chance of stable peace. It is worth recalling to this House that this war is in some remarkable respects a repetition of the war in which this country was engaged over 100 years ago, against another dictator, Napoleon Bonaparte. Like Hitler, he had subjugated a considerable part of Europe and claimed that he was going to defeat this country and carry it out by invasion. The point I want to make is that it was the misery of the French people, the way in which they were held down and deprived of the heritage of mankind, that started the French Revolution. It was the French Revolution that threw up Napoleon Bonaparte. He was defeated only after a long and hazardous struggle, in which the greatest part was played by the people of this country at that time.
I am in no doubt that it was the presence of 6,000,000 people unemployed in Germany, which situation he falsely laid at the door of the Treaty of Versailles, that enabled Hitler to secure power. Without those 6,000,000 angry and determined people, Hitler would never have had the chance to get ascendancy and to bring the

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present disasters upon Europe and mankind. That is true, whatever legend as to the invincibility of the German Army there may have been, and whatever other myths and lies he may have succeeded in spreading in his country.
Germany cannot win the war. Our own tasks will be heavy in the future, but the day will come when we shall have won the war, when Hitler will have disappeared just as Napoleon Bonaparte did 130 years ago. And shall we then have permanent peace? Shall we have banished the spectre of war for ever? What guarantee is there that some other clever demagogue might not arise perhaps in Germany, or it may possibly be elsewhere, and wish to throw the dice of war? If there are in his country misery and a degraded life for a large section of the people very likely he may be successful in raising his people behind him. He may rouse them to some such awful enterprise. By that time, 20 or 30 or more years after the end of this war the powers of human invention will be much greater even than they are to-day. It will be possible for nations in those days to create engines of destruction compared with which even the fearful things of the present time will seem small and insignificant.
Is it too much to say that if another war breaks out between great nations which are anything like equally matched the whole visible material signs of Western civilisation will be swept away? Therefore, I say that our one hope is to see to it that in the future the rich heritage of mankind becomes the property of every class in every country of the world. On that sure and broad foundation and on that alone can the peace of the world be enduringly established.
The Secretary of State for Foreiģn Affairs (Mr. Eden): The right hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) has contributed to this Debate, as he always does, a thoughtful examination of our problems. I would like straight away, if I might, to reply to one of his points which is of military consequence. He asked whether we had, if I understood him aright, learned the lessons of the Anzio bridgehead—he put it more politely but that is what he meant—and whether we could not make sure that there would be no rigidity in operations elsewhere whenever they might come about. I can tell the right hon. Gentleman and
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the House that one of the advantages, one of the great benefits we shall derive from these operations, is the lesson they are now teaching us in that most difficult of all forms of warfare, amphibious warfare, I can assure him on that point that he need have no anxiety as to our willingness to learn. For our ability to learn I do not pledge myself.
This Debate has ranged wide. If I may be allowed to say so without impertinence to hon. Members in all parts of the House, I think the speeches that have been delivered from all parts of the House have been of a quite exceptionally high standard and I think hon. Members generally have that impression. I shall not try to single out all the remarkable speeches that I consider have been made in this Debate. I have jotted down a list but I came to the conclusion that it would be impertinent of me to read out a catalogue. I think there has been throughout the discussion generally a desire to contribute to an examination of our manifold problems. The question is, what should the Government spokesman do at the end of such a two days? I think, if it is convenient to the House, that I will spend the first part of my time in answering a number of detailed questions that have been put on various points of policy. If I hop about from point to point with the abruptness but without the agility of the kangaroo I hope the House will make allowances. Then I would like, in the concluding part of the time at my disposal, to venture on that field, so instructively examined in the last two days, of the general foundations and principles of our foreign policy, and try to answer some of the questions put on that subject. I feel a little nervous about that with so many historians about, but I will do the best a layman can.
Before I answer some of the questions I would like to extend on behalf of the House our congratulations to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Acton (Captain Longhurst) on the admirable maiden speech he made to-day, and the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton (Flight-Lieutenant Teeling) on his maiden speech yesterday. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) asked me about the Far East, and earlier to-day a speech was made—I am sorry that the House was not then so full as it is now—by my hon. and

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gallant Friend the Member for North Salford (Major Morris), who is just back from an active part himself in the war in Burma. Part of his speech led him into controversy with hon. Members above the Gangway. It is not to that I want to refer because I think the controversy merely concealed some valuable things he had to say which were not controversial at all. He spoke of the troops there, and said he brought a message from them as to whether we could assure them that they were not a forgotten Army. I think this House can give that assurance. I think the House can say that they understand only too well what are the exceptional demands that have to be made upon our troops in that theatre of war.
I think if any of us had a choice we would say that of all the ordeals to which military forces can be put warfare such as our troops are now engaged in on the Burma frontier is perhaps the toughest job of all. We do think of them, and what I have to say in answer to the right hon. Gentleman is also an answer to them. He is right when he says that there is no distinction in the mind of His Majesty's Government between our enemies. We are determined to continue the struggle against Germany and Japan until both are utterly defeated. That should need no emphasis, because what hope of durable peace could there be if either one of them was free to start again his attacks of vengeance and tyranny upon neighbouring States?
We understand only too well how long drawn out has been the agony of China, cut off as she is to so large an extent from contact with the outside world. But we pledged ourselves, in the words deliberately used at the Cairo Conference, "to persevere in the series of prolonged operations necessary to procure the unconditional surrender of Japan." May I say that when we think of China we think also of our Ally the Netherlands, and the many millions of loyal subjects of the Netherlands Empire in those Far Eastern lands. I have often thought that, broadly speaking, the story of the administration of those territories by the Netherlands before the war was one of the proudest examples of what can be done in that way.
Now I come to my first kangaroo hop nearer home. One or two hon. Gentlemen
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referred to France. The reason why my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister did not deal with that yesterday was simply that we decided on a certain division of labour: he could not cover the whole field, and he asked me to make some reference to-day to the French situation. I think I have an encouraging report to give to the House in this respect. The French Committee of National Liberation set up in North Africa, is steadily broadening its scope and adding to its authority. General de Gaulle is the outstanding figure, but he is surrounded now by a Committee of authority and supported by an Assembly which has also acquired a collective sense, and which, I observe, has already inaugurated debates even more heated than those which we have in this Chamber. The functions which the National Committee are now exercising are very great. They administer the whole of the former French overseas empire save only Indo-China, and they are financially independent. They have powerful squadrons at work in the closest co-operation with us. Afloat, they have one of the most powerful battleships in the world, the "Richelieu," which is at this moment working with the Allied Fleets. The French Army in North Africa is already formidable, and is to play a notable part in our future operations. Even now the French Auxiliary Corps, which has been fighting so valiantly and so powerfully against the Germans, has won distinction.
There is great comfort in all this. I think it bodes well for the future. The military contribution of the French National Committee, and of the French Empire over which they preside, increases, and before this conflict is at an end their military contribution—and I use the word "military" in the widest sense—to the Allied cause will be great. There is no doubt that the French people—every report that we get shows it—are waiting eagerly for the hour of liberation. No statement in this House about France could be complete without saying, in one sentence, that our thoughts are with the French patriots who are to-day harassing the Nazi oppressor by all the means at their disposal. There is a movement there which is steadily growing. We are doing, in conjunction with the French Committee, all that we can to support it. One word about the future in connection with

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France. When Europe has regained her freedom, France has a notable part to play. We shall all need her. Do not let anyone think that there can be a vacuum there, or a weakness there, which will not be felt throughout the whole structure; so we shall do what lies in our power to help her, now and always. When France has regained her freedom we shall work with her as loyal friends and partners in an enduring friendship.
I turn to another country, Spain, about which I have been asked some questions. We have never asked for anything from Spain but strict and honourable neutrality. In the dark days of the war—the very dark days of the war—when we were alone, the attitude of the Spanish Government, in not giving our enemies passage through Spain, was extremely helpful to us. It was especially so at the time of the North African liberation. But as time has passed, we thought it right to draw the attention of Spaniards to certain practices by which they were helping the Germans. In view of the way the war has turned against Germany, in view of the falling out of Italy, we considered, in full agreement with our American Allies, that Spain could not any longer plead alarm at German concentrations on the Spanish frontier as a reason for endeavouring to placate Germany by lapses from neutrality. Therefore, as Spain was now in a safe and strong position to preserve the integrity of her soil from any form of invasion or undue pressure by Germany, we considered it time to ask her to take a stricter view of her obligations.
This we have done. We have made, in conjunction with the United States, a series of requests to her. We hope that Spain will consent to our requests. There is no intrusion on Spanish sovereignty in making these requests. We are certainly under no obligation to part with our limited oil supplies unless we choose to do so. The attempt that German propaganda is making to suggest that this is an affront to Spanish honour or dignity, is, of course, entirely beside the mark. Far from having towards Spain, our desire is to see her prosperous and peaceful, and the words that the Prime Minister used at the Mansion House, 18 months ago, in that connection, still stand. Conversations are now proceeding in Madrid, and I will report further to the House as soon as I am in a position to do so.
Commander King-Hall: Do they cover Tangier?
Mr. Eden: The German espionage system is one of the points which has been raised, and that is active at Tangier. If my hon. and gallant Friend will forgive me, I think I should be wiser not to list now all the points that are raised in the negotiations.
Reference was made to wolfram supplies from Portugal to Germany. It is true that conversations are proceeding now with the Portuguese Government on this subject, and we have left them in no doubt of the importance we attach to this question. We feel that we are justified in asking a country which is our Ally to take urgent steps in connection with traffic in a metal which is vital for war munitions.
I turn to one or two of the wider considerations raised in this Debate. To my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Wirrall (Captain Graham), I must say that I am not sure I can travel all the way with him in the principle, which he seemed to announce, of legitimacy. I thought—and here I am getting into historical trouble again—that it was more than 200 years since a foreign monarch tried to tell us that that was the principle which we should accept, and we said, "No." My impression is that we have always in our history taken the view that we would not fight a war to impose a certain form of Government on another country. Therefore, I am not in entire agreement with my hon. and gallant Friend when he asks me to adopt the principle of legitimacy. Our position is rather that the peoples of Europe should be free to choose, and when we have come into a war in history it has always been, surely, because one man, or one State under the leadership of one man, has sought to impose this particular system upon the whole of Europe. It is the story of the Napoleonic wars, the story of the German wars and it is the reason why we are at war now.
I submit to the House that that position be accepted as being our position, and as being the position of our Allies, including, let me say, the exiled Governments here, because each single one of them, I think, has made a declaration that, when they get back to their countries, they are at once going to subject themselves to the will of their people. They are aware that, however closely representative an exiled Government may have been, it must have

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lost some contact with its people. From what I have heard said about some of my poor right hon. Friends, who have been away a year or two, I shudder to think what might be said about even this Government if we were away for five. The hon. Member for North Lambeth (Mr. G. Strauss) said we were afraid of revolution. Everybody thinks His Majesty's Government are afraid of something. I do not known why. We are not afraid of revolution; we are just not revolutionaries for its own sake. We try to see which method is going to get us the victory. Will the hon. Member bear with me while I read a passage in a speech in which I indicated the principles on which we are working?
Mr. G. Strauss: I did not ask that question. I think the right hon. Gentleman must have confused some other hon. Member with me.
Mr. Eden: I apologise. I want to explain what our principles are, and I may say that I laid them down with the assent of my colleagues in the Cabinet. People sometimes say "Does this represent only you?" This represents the view of the Cabinet. There are three rules. First, to give all the practical help in our power to those elements in all countries which are actively resisting the enemy. Can anybody take exception to that? Rule 2 is to make clear that, as far as we can exert any authority it shall be used to ensure that these countries shall be free to choose their own Governments when they are liberated. What is the exception to that? Rule 3 is to work in the closest possible accord with our Allies. Those are the principles that we seek to apply, but it always happens, if I may be allowed to say it, in the conduct of foreign affairs that people are apt to say, each critic from his own point of view, that you are not applying a principle accurately at all. I tried to show clearly that we are applying these principles with the greatest impartiality, and I can tell the House that I am not really much interested in the politics of Marshal Tito at this moment, or the particular hue or colour of them. In a war, the activities of our armies, and the fighting in the field—are all one. You cannot separate them even if you would. The hon. and gallant Member for Wirral was inclined to question the numbers of the forces
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behind Marshal Tito. Well, I may say the more there are the more Germans they will slay. I do believe that the principles I have laid down are the only ones you can follow, and that, if you depart from them, manifold troubles will arise.
Let me say one word about Poland, and it will only be one word, because the House will understand that the Prime Minister's words which he used yesterday were very carefully chosen, and that we are still in negotiations, the outcome of which all of us have very much at heart, and I may only too easily say something which might make our task harder than it is. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister said:
"Marshal Stalin and I also spoke and agreed on the need for Poland to obtain compensation at the expense of Germany both in the North and in the West."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd February; col. 698, Vol. 397.]
The hon. Member for North Lambeth said that he took exception to that because of the action which he conjured up of a possible large transference of German territory to Poland and so on. I am not going into that at this time, and quite obviously, whatever is done or is agreed, if agreement is reached and when it is reached, it will come before the House, but I do want to put this consideration before the House. The hon. Gentleman was speaking as though the position in that part of Europe could bear some parallel to the position at the outbreak of the war. It bears hardly any. An enormous and horrible transformation has taken place, for instance, over the whole of what was formerly Western Poland. Germany has removed populations wholesale from vast tracts of territory, millions of people, and in many cases they are now dead. The position is, as the Prime Minister said yesterday, and, I ought to add, said with the knowledge and approval of his colleagues, that he and Stalin spoke and agreed upon the need for Poland to obtain compensation at the expense of Germany in the North and West. That represents the position of His Majesty's Government.
Mr. Stokes: Does that then mean that His Majesty's Government have abandoned the principles of the Atlantic Charter?
Mr. Eden: The hon. Member is always just a little quicker than I am. I was

937
just coming to the Atlantic Charter myself. I think it was very well dealt with by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) a little while ago. What I am about to say does not mean that we wish to try to claim some strained or unilateral interpretation for the Atlantic Charter, All the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister intended to convey, as indeed he clearly said, was that Germany would not, as a matter of right, be able to claim to benefit from the Atlantic Charter in such a way as to preclude the victorious Powers from making territorial adjustments at her expense. There are certain parts of the Atlantic Charter which refer in set terms to victor and vanquished alike. Article 4 does so. But we cannot admit that Germany can claim, as a matter of right on her part, whatever our obligation, that any part of the Charter applies to her.
Mr. Stokes: That is not the point.
Mr. Eden: It may not be the convenient point for the hon. Member. May I refer to one other matter in that connection? I ought now to say a word about foreign policy in general and to try and meet the criticisms which have come—I admit it frankly—from many parts of the House, pointing out that such and such a country has got a foreign policy and asking "Where are you?" I will try to explain where I am. First of all, I must say that I find it hard to conceive a clearer definition, or explanation, shall we say, of our position to-day in these very uncertain times than that given by the Prime Minister yesterday. I make no secret of the objective which we have set ourselves, and do set ourselves, in foreign policy.
May I explain this matter again, as I see it, and see whether I can carry the assent of the House with me? I say, first, that the maintenance of peace, after this conflict is over, depends upon a close and intimate understanding between the nations of the British Commonwealth, the United States of America and the Soviet Union. If we can achieve this understanding, then all our problems, however difficult, can be resolved, and if we cannot achieve it, I say to this House, there is, in my judgment, no hope for lasting peace. This seems to me to be fundamental. When I say that, I must not be taken as meaning, and I hope the House will not take me as meaning, that on that
938
account any of the three great Powers would have any justification for ignoring the rights of smaller nations. Each people has a just claim to lead its own life. But it does mean, that, unless we three can reach a common understanding and accept common principles for the guidance of our foreign policy, all Powers, great and small alike, are going to suffer.
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Captain Grey), in the course of a very remarkable speech, said, what my hon. Friend the Senior Burgess the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) and my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham (Sir E. Grigg) said, that many people in Europe were looking to us to see whether we would be good Europeans; and that they feared that after this business was over we would draw back again. I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend that there is support for the fear, to a much greater extent perhaps than we understand, that we may go back into some form of semi-isolation. It is good that it should go out from this House that there is no body of opinion in this country, no body of opinion in this House, that does not clearly understand that we have to play the full part we can in Europe commensurate with our strength.
May I say a word about the object of our work at Moscow and Teheran? What we sought to do there was to get this understanding and this foundation for common policies between us, and, as a result of those meetings—I do not for a moment pretend that a great part even of our difficulties were resolved—if you compare the position now between the three great Powers with the position before that meeting took place our policies are more closely related than they were at that time. One of the results of that Conference, the House may remember, was the setting up of the European Advisory Commission in London. That Commission is working now, not, I am thankful to say, with publicity, because this is the sort of work which is better not done in the full glare of publicity. But they are at work on the problems which are going to confront us the moment the military might of Germany is broken, and that work is making good progress. There the representatives of Great Britain, the United States and

939
Russia are meeting very frequently to do their work.
I am not trying to underrate the magnitude of the work we have to do. There are many difficulties in reaching even a broad basis of understanding and still more difficulties when you come to interpret that basis in the province of parallel foreign policies. With thousands of miles separating the great nations, geography imposes some very stern limitations. But there are, I believe, certain influences which help us in our task. All three of these great Powers—and China too—are fundamentally interested in the preservation of lasting peace when this conflict is over. My right hon. Friend the Member for Devonport (Mr. Here-Belisha), in the remarkable speech he made just now, spoke of the expansionist policy of the United States. I am not worried about that.
Mr. Hare-Belisha: Nor am I. I welcome it.
Mr. Eden: I did not think that my right hon. Friend was worried. I am pleased when I see the United States—and it is perhaps rather impudent for a representative of this Government to say—interested in world affairs, because that is a partnership which, even if we argue or disagree about it, is infinitely, as the right hon. Gentleman agreed, preferable to the United States not taking such part. And equally so with regard to the other great Powers, I do not believe it would be to the lasting advantage of the peace of Europe that Russia, after the conflict, were to say, "I retire into my fastnesses. I go back into isolation. I am not going to play my part in the reconstruction." So we have these things in common.
There is one assurance that I would like to give before I sit down, because I think that it is perhaps the most important matter that has been raised in the Debate. I think as I listen, particularly to many hon. Friends on this side of the House—I do not think that I am wrong—that they have a suspicion, or an impression, that in some way or other, either at Teheran or at Moscow, we committed ourselves to limit or exclude our interest in certain parts of Europe. I can assure the House that there is no
940
foundation or truth in this at all, absolutely none. We have not agreed to any spheres of influence. We have not been asked to agree to any spheres of influence. We have accepted no barriers. We have not been asked to accept any barriers. We are absolutely free to interest ourselves in the affairs of Europe and the nations of Europe and no spheres of influence have been agreed to by anybody. There is the account which my right hon. Friend gave yesterday of Yugoslavia. I am not discussing whether our action has been right or wrong, but one thing is quite clear, we were there first. That was because of physical reasons; but because we got there first there was no question of anybody suggesting to us or inferring that we were wrong in taking any action. We were there first, but that does not prevent us from discussing with other Powers the problems there and elsewhere. There is the problem of Greece and of aiding the guerrillas. We have had the help of both the American and the Soviet Governments in trying to reach a settlement of the differences between these bands.
A final word and I have done. Europe in these last four years has suffered deeply and our task is going to be infinitely harder than it was after the last war. I do not think that we should disguise that fact from ourselves at all. My right hon. Friend made a plea for unity with foreign Powers. If I may interpret that, it was not that we should cease to debate them or criticise them, but that we should all have a sense of the responsibility of this country and of the events which are taking place around us, and that, as far as we could, we should shape our arguments to create unity in the events of the world rather than otherwise. Now you may say, what are we trying to do? We shall try to use our influence and our authority to bring about friendship between Allies where friendship is indispensable to the further continuance of peace. We shall do our utmost to use our influence so that Europe may regain its corporate life and so that individual nations in Europe may regain their individual life. That is the policy upon which His Majesty's Government are engaged. I can only promise plenty of difficulties, plenty of disappointments, in the times that lie ahead. I do not, in my experience, remember a period when foreign policy was so difficult to

941
conduct as it is just now. I can only say that we shall use all our strength to pursue the object which I have laid before the House and I trust that we may not fail.
Motion, "That this House do now adjourn," by leave, withdrawn.

INCOME TAX (OFFICES AND EMPLOYMENTS) BILL
As amended, considered.
INCOME TAX (OFFICES AND EMPLOYMENTS) BILL

  CLAUSE 6.—(Discharge of outstanding tax for years before 1943–44 in certain cases.)
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Assheton): I beg to move, in page 3, line 35, after "Crown" to insert or railway."
  This Amendment, and the Amendments which follow it, carry out the undertaking which the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave on the Committee stage during consideration of an Amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for the Park Division of Sheffield (Mr. Burden). They give a similar measure of relief to the salaried employees of railway employers in respect of arrears of tax for 1942 to 1943, and earlier years, on what one might call their pre-railway earnings—the same relief as is given by Clause 6 to Crown employees. Since the Committee stage the Board of Inland Revenue have been in consultation with the Railway Clerks' Association, and also with representatives of the railway companies, and I understand that both parties are satisfied that the Amendments proposed meet their case.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendments made: In line 40, after "Crown," insert "or railway."
  In line 42, at the end, insert "or railway."
  In line 44, after "that," insert:
  "(a) where—

  (i) on the said sixth day of April the person in question was in railway employment; and

  (ii) that railway employment was of a class where income tax (other than surtax) for the year 1942–43 was ordinarily collected by deduction over a period part of which fell within the said year and part of which (hereinafter referred to as 'the period of overlap') fell within the next year;

  942
  this subsection shall have effect as if for reference to the date on which that person entered Crown or railway employment there were substituted a reference to a date later than that date by a period equal to the period of overlap;
  (b) in any case."
  In page 4, line 1, after "Crown," insert "or railway."
  In line 4, after "Schedule E," insert:
  "and all railway employment; the expression 'railway employment' means all offices and employments which fall or, but for the provisions of this or the principal Act, would fall, within Rule 7 of the said Rules."
  In line 17, after "Crown," insert "or railway."
  In line 18, after "Crown," insert "or railway."
  In line 21, after "Crown," insert "or railway."—[Mr. Assheton.]
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  Mr. Assheton: I should like to thank the House very much on behalf of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the way in which it has helped him in this rather difficult Bill. I should also like to pay a tribute to the Board of Inland Revenue, who handled an extraordinarily difficult matter with very great ability. Finally, I should like to make an appeal to all taxpayers, whether employers or employees, to do their best to make this difficult task of the change over from one system of taxation to another as easy as possible.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

AGRICULTURAL HOLDING, CHESHIRE (TENANCY)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain McEwen.]
Mr. Loverseed: Some time ago I raised with the Ministry of Agriculture the case of a farmer in my constituency, Mr. Thomas Hughes, of Gorse-field, Broxton, involving certain principles on which I would like the opinion of this House. Mr. Hughes has been farming at Broxton for a good many years, and his father before him. He is a tenant on the Egerton Estate, an estate on

943
which many farms are in a disgraceful state of repair, and he has been farming under exceptionally difficult circumstances. Some three years ago he was anxious to produce accredited milk, and he approached the landlord with a view to getting him to erect on the estate shippons in order that he could do so. The estate agent entered into a verbal agreement with him that these shippons would be erected in consideration of the payment by Mr. Hughes of an increased rental of £18 a year. This was a verbal agreement, and it is noteworthy in this particular case that the agreements of every tenant on the estate mentioned are verbal agreements. In no case have I been able to find a tenant who has a written agreement with the landlord.
Mr. Hughes has honoured his part of the agreement faithfully by the payment of that increased rental of £18 per year. He has proved himself a good farmer in that he has received from the Minister of Agriculture certificates for increased milk production of over 20 per cent. Despite that, within the last three years, he has not had built on that farm the shippons for which he paid the increased rent. Thereupon, early this year, he intimated that he would not pay any further rent until those shippons were erected. I believe that on this particular point he was ill advised in the course he took, but that is unfortunate. Nevertheless it is a fact that the agreement, from the point of view of the landlord, had not been honoured, and Mr. Hughes had been paying this increased rental for three years without effect. The landlord thereupon took a case against Mr. Hughes and obtained an ejectment order.
I took the case up with the Minister of Agriculture and my case is this, that since the Minister of Agriculture has the power to evict a farmer who is guilty of bad husbandry, then equally so he should have the power, through his war agricultural executive commitees, to prevent the eviction of a farmer who has been doing a good job of work.
Mr. E. P. Smith: Did the landlord take action of ejectment without previously asking for payment?
Mr. Loverseed: I believe that a request was made that the rent should be paid, but Mr. Hughes, as far as I remember,
944
clung to his part of the agreement and refused to pay until there was some evidence that the landlord intended to honour his agreement. That was not done, and I therefore wrote to the Minister of Agriculture and suggested that he should exercise the powers which he possesses under Defence Regulation 51 to take over that farm and to let it back again to Mr. Hughes. The Minister replied that he could only do so if he was satisfied that such action was necessary or expedient in the interests of the public safety, the defence of the realm, the efficient prosecution of the war, or for maintaining supplies and services necessary for the life of the community. My case is this, that the disturbance of a provenly good farm, in order to place in the tenancy a farmer who is unknown, is likely to prejudice the supplies and services necessary for the life of the community. The insecurity of tenure which Mr. Hughes has experienced during the last two or three months has already resulted in the interruption of those supplies of milk and dairy products which are so vitally necessary today, and I feel that any further disturbance would further prejudice the flow of those supplies.
There are other points which should be raised in this case. The landlord, throughout the term of Mr. Hughes' tenancy, has not spent a halfpenny on the farm or buildings. I myself have seen the farm, and my first inclination on doing so was to send for the sanitary inspector and have the whole lot pulled down. Had it not been for the fact that Mr. Hughes himself has spent some hundreds of pounds on the farm and buildings they would have fallen down themselves some time ago. Mr. Hughes has been doing a grand job under simply terrific difficulties, and the fact that he has, despite all this, been able to increase his milk production by over 20 per cent. is itself a tribute to the efficiency with which he has conducted his business.
Mr. Hughes also owns a few acres—I think about 17—of land on which it might be suggested he could carry on milk production. Unfortunately, he has no farm buildings at all on that land and there has been difficulty in getting any because it comes under the provisions of the Town and Country Planning Act. I understand that it is now possible for Mr. Hughes to get the authority to erect all the buildings

945
he requires on his own land, but, here again, another point arises in that whereas those buildings some three or four years ago would have cost about £500 to put up, the present estimate from the builder amounts to something like £11,00. I feel it is grossly unfair that Mr. Hughes should be called upon to provide this amount and I would be grateful if the Parliamentary Secretary could give some undertaking that any claim by Mr. Hughes in respect of new buildings which it is proposed to erect would be looked upon sympathetically and that perhaps some assistance would be given to him.
The present position is that the landlord has taken possession of the farmhouse itself, but that Mr. Hughes has possession of his farm buildings and the land until the 28th of this month. I feel that it is still not too late to ask for a direction to be made under Defence Regulation 51 to retain Mr. Hughes in his tenancy by taking over the farm and reletting it to Mr. Hughes. On that I rest my case.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (Mr. Tom Williams): This is an ordinary tenancy under the Agricultural Holdings Act where, of course, either the tenant can give 12 months' notice to the landowner or the landowner can give 12 months' notice to the farmer. In neither case has the Minister any power to intervene except, of course, as has been said, under Defence Regulation 51. Apparently, the landlord served notice on Mr. Hughes on the ground of arrears of rent, but it is also true to say that he was very dissatisfied with the way that this land was managed by Mr. Hughes. The Minister, I repeat, has power to intervene only under Defence Regulation 51, and in that case could only intervene if he were satisfied that it was necesssary to do so for maintaining supplies and services essential for the life of the community. That means that the Minister must ask himself this question: Is this notice to quit likely to result in any material impairment of the food production campaign? On such a question the Minister must necessarily take local advice. This was sought and given and it was found that the local war agricultural executive committee have been extremely anxious from time to time about the 17 acres which were under the tenancy of a Mr. Hughes, junr. They were not, in
946
fact, satisfied that he was farming the land to the best advantage or that a great improvement would not take place by putting in another tenant.
Mr. Loverseed: If that is so then, despite the fact that in the opinion of the war agricultural committee the land was not being used to the best advantage, how is it that Mr. Hughes was granted a certificate for an increase of 20 per cent. in his milk production? Further, would the Parliamentary Secretary accept my assurance that Mr. Hughes himself was not consulted at all, and that presumably the war agricultural committee made inquiries only from the landlord? The District Land Commissioner, a Mr. Rowell from Liverpool, came down and consulted Mr. Hughes for rather less than five minutes. He came in, said he had a train to catch and that he must be off, and did not make any inquiry from Mr. Hughes.
Mr. Williams: If my hon. Friend will contain his soul in patience for a few moments I intend to refer to the milk certificate. I do not want to say anything that would be injurious to the tenant farmer. As I was saying, the war agricultural committee had been anxious about this particular farm and my hon. Friend will remember that the landlord gave the tenant notice in February, 1942. He did so so that he could replace him by a new tenant, who was known to be a very good farmer. In the meantime the 12 months' notice expired in February, 1943, but still the tenant persisted in carrying on. The war agricultural committee, not wishing to intervene between tenant and landowner, allowed the law to take its course. The landlord went to court and secured a verdict in his favour for the dispossession of the tenant farmer. As regards the milk production it is true that the tenant farmer did secure a Ministry certificate for an increase of 20 per cent. in his milk production, but my hon. Friend must know that it was a 20 per cent. increase on an extremely low, production.
Mr. Hughes has, in fact, eight cows. He declares that his present production is seven gallons per day, which includes the 20 per cent. increase for which he has obtained his certificate. I am sure my hon. Friend would not suggest that with eight cows, seven known to be of a very inferior quality, an output which,

947
with the 20 per cent. increase, only reaches seven gallons is really anything to write home about. That production surely could be and ought to be increased, whoever the tenant farmer happens to be. It is distinctly low, and I do not think any reference to the certificate is helpful to him. The war agricultural executive committee, composed mainly of practical farmers, have examined the farm and considered it very carefully and they see no reason at all why the Minister should interfere with the course of events between landlord and tenant. The Land Commissioner also saw the farm buildings and the eight cows, and he was not at all convinced that it was the best farm in the world.
This is rather a complicated case. The son of Mr. Hughes is the nominal tenant of the 17 acres, but he actually works full time as a farm labourer on another farm and displays little or no interest in these 17 acres. The father has Gorsefield farm, of 40 acres, and cultivates the whole 57 acres, but even then the father is dependent upon a son-in-law who lives two miles away for all cultivation and harvesting of the crops of these 57 acres. There seems no evidence at all, therefore, that if the sitting tenant departs at the end of this month and a new tenant, known to be a good farmer, takes possession, food production will be decreased. The chances are that it will not only not be decreased but will actually be increased. In any case the Minister would not be justified in taking any step under Regulation 51 to preserve the present tenant on that farm, and I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will see that to magnify the value of a certificate is not to do the tenant farmer any good, because to increase production from, it may be, six gallons to seven per day, is no gigantic undertaking and, indeed, to advertise those figures at all is really not to help the tenant farmer but to have an adverse effect upon him. The actual tenant is an agricultural labourer who has no interest in the 17 acres at all but works full time on another farm. The son who has been given notice to leave the tenancy is a person who does not farm at all. There is nothing to prevent the father from taking away any of the barns or buildings, which he erected himself, to Gorsefield farm, if he feels disposed to do so. With regard to the verbal agreement into which
948
landlord and tenant had entered, the Minister has no power to interfere with that. With these facts in mind I think my hon. Friend is bound to agree that the Minister would not be justified in using Regulation 51 to interfere in a case of this kind.
Mr. Kendall: How long has the father been farming?
Mr. Williams: I have no means of telling exactly how long the father has been farming these 17 acres.
Mr. E. P. Smith: Is it a fact that the tenant paid this £18 a year extra rent for two years? Was this denied by the landlord and yet the landlord never put up shippons?
Mr. Williams: The tenant declared that some sort of agreement was entered into verbally, but the landlord's present agent denied any knowledge of it. In the meantime, apparently, the landlord's previous agent has passed away.
Mr. Granville: We have all had cases similar to this in our constituencies. What we are concerned about is whether there is any real contact between the Ministry and the local war agricultural executive committee. I think there is a tendency for the Ministry to take for granted every report they receive from every committee from every remote district. The members of these committees are themselves farmers, but there is no real right of appeal behind all this. Has the Ministry of Agriculture ever received complaints from its local committee that this farmer was not fit, in the interest of the war effort, to continue farming the holding? Also, is the right hon. Gentleman really telling us that under these various Regulations, including 51, the Ministry of Agriculture takes all these powers to dispossess tenant farmers but has no power at all to preserve in his holding a tenant farmer who has carried on production under the war programme if the landlord comes along and says he wants the holding? If that is the case, the sooner this is raised in the House of Commons and it is made fair to tenant and landlord the better.
Mr. Williams: I have stated that the Minister has no right to interfere with a contract between landlord and tenant unless it is proved to his satisfaction that food production is bound to suffer. In

949
this case he has no proof, either from the war agricultural committee who are on the spot, or the Land Commissioner who visited the place to satisfy him that food production would suffer if this tenancy were determined. The war agricultural executive committee do not periodically report to the Ministry of Agriculture what they think of every farm in the county. If a farmer is not making the best use of his land he is warned and directions are issued to him The committee keep a note of every farm which they think is not pulling its full weight, and it is only after a year or two of warnings anti directions that the committee take action and report to the Ministry.
Mr. Loverseed: Is it not a fact that the increased rent was paid for two years and that it was only because the agent who entered into the verbal agreement died that this dispute arose? In view of the statement which the Parliamentary Secretary has made about the low production of milk from this farm, is it not a farce to issue certificates of merit if production is so low in the first place? May I take it from the right hon. Gentleman that Mr. Hughes will be in order in. moving the buildings which he has erected at his own expense to the 40 acres which he owns?
Mr. Williams: I can only say, in reply to the latter question that, so far as we are informed, the agent acting for the landowner has no objection to the farmer removing what actually belongs to him in the form of any wooden buildings he may have planted on that 17 acres.
Mr. Loverseed: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that there are certain difficulties under the Town and Country Planning Act with regard to the erection of buildings on the 40 acres?
Mr. Williams: I am afraid that I am not conversant with the legal powers under the Town and Country Planning Act as applied to a case of this description. I can only say that, as far as we understand, the attitude of the agent is that he
950
has no objection to the farmer taking away any wooden buildings he may have erected.
Mr. Jenninģs: I was struck by two things in the description given by my right hon. Friend of the buildings in which the cows are housed, and also by the fact that the farm is to be let to a new tenant. Has the Ministry no power to force a landlord to bring his buildings into a decent condition, so that decent cows can be housed in them? If I were a farmer I would not take any good class cows into the buildings described by the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Williams: That is the sort of observation I used to make frequently when I sat on the other side of the House.
Mr. Kendall: Is it a fact that this farmer has farmed the land for 50 years, that during the war-time period the executive committee has never complained about him, and that the thing only came to light because the landlord wanted the land? The committee has made no complaints about him and a certificate of merit has been awarded.
Mr. Williams: I think that discussion of the certificate of merit ought to be dropped. If the Ministry are appealing to dairy farmers to increase their milk output and grant certificates of merit to those with a certain percentage increase, they are bound to issue them on a uniform scale. In this case the person who increased his milk production from perhaps six gallons a day to seven did increase it by 20 per cent., but it is really not the sort of thing that would convince anyone that that milk output was on a large scale. The other question—
It being half an hour after the conclusion of Business exempted from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order, as modified for this Session by the Order of the House of 25 th November.

  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (DENTISTRY)
  NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (DENTISTRY)
  AERIAL TARGET PRACTICE (DAMAGED BUILDINGS)
  AERIAL TARGET PRACTICE (DAMAGED BUILDINGS)
FOOD SUPPLIES
  Rationed Foods (Gifts)
  Rationed Foods (Gifts)
  Welfare Foods (Vitamins)
  Welfare Foods (Vitamins)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Industrial Supplementary Clothing Coupons
  Industrial Supplementary Clothing Coupons
NATIONAL WAR EFFORT
  Requisitioned Factories {Release)
  Requisitioned Factories {Release)
  Factory and Storage Premises Control (North Wales)
  Factory and Storage Premises Control (North Wales)
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Wooden Palings
  Wooden Palings
  Salvage (Needs)
  Salvage (Needs)
ROYAL NAVY
  Vessels (Immobilisation) Orders
  Vessels (Immobilisation) Orders
  Commissions
  Commissions
CYPRUS
  Animal Breedinģ
  Animal Breedinģ
  Sheep (Epidemic)
  Sheep (Epidemic)
  Aģriculture and Fisheries (Report)
  Aģriculture and Fisheries (Report)
  BURUTU (WEST AFRICAN DOCKERS)
  BURUTU (WEST AFRICAN DOCKERS)
  NIGERIA (NATIVE COMPENSATION CLAIMS)
  NIGERIA (NATIVE COMPENSATION CLAIMS)
  LOCAL LOANS FUND (LOSSES)
  LOCAL LOANS FUND (LOSSES)
  MINERS, ARMED FORCES (RELEASE)
  MINERS, ARMED FORCES (RELEASE)
  BROADCASTS (MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT)
  BROADCASTS (MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT)
  FOOD SUBSIDIES AND WAGES
  FOOD SUBSIDIES AND WAGES
SCOTLAND
  The Minch (Fishinģ Restrictions)
  The Minch (Fishinģ Restrictions)
  Housing and Small Holdings (Outer Hebrides)
  Housing and Small Holdings (Outer Hebrides)
  ARGENTINA AND GREAT BRITAIN
  ARGENTINA AND GREAT BRITAIN
  SUEZ CANAL
  SUEZ CANAL
  GREECE (BRITISH SUPPLIES)
  GREECE (BRITISH SUPPLIES)
  GREAT BRITAIN AND RUSSIA (SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION, EXCHANGES).
  GREAT BRITAIN AND RUSSIA (SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION, EXCHANGES).
  RAIL PACKAGES (LIMITATIONS)
  RAIL PACKAGES (LIMITATIONS)
  GLASGOW AND EDINBURGH (AIR IMPURITY)
  GLASGOW AND EDINBURGH (AIR IMPURITY)
  HILL SHEEP SUBSIDY
  HILL SHEEP SUBSIDY
  BRITISH NATIONALITY (CERTIFICATES OF NATURALISATION)
  BRITISH NATIONALITY (CERTIFICATES OF NATURALISATION)
  WOMEN POLICE
  WOMEN POLICE
  DEFENCE REGULATION 18B (DETENTIONS)
  DEFENCE REGULATION 18B (DETENTIONS)
  ROAD CASUALTIES (MOTOR VEHICLES)
  ROAD CASUALTIES (MOTOR VEHICLES)
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (DEPENDANTS' ALLOWANCES)
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (DEPENDANTS' ALLOWANCES)
Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being suspended for this day's sitting.—(Lord Snell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932:
  RURAL DISTRICT OF PENYBONT (PARISH OF PYLE) ORDER.

    BOROUGH OF SUNDERLAND ORDER.
    LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the noble Earl, Lord Munster, I beg to move that the motion standing in his name be agreed to.
    Moved, That the Orders made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, and laid before the House yesterday, be approved.—(Lord Templemore.)
    On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE FILM INDUSTRY.
LORD BRABAZON OF TARA LORD BRABAZON OF TARA rose to call attention to the position of the film industry in this country with special reference to the action of the Board of Trade in the matter; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have put down on the Order Paper a Motion with regard to the film industry. I cannot help reminding you that the film industry throughout the world is a very big one, and indeed a very complex one. It will be difficult to hold the attention of the House while I go through some of the ramifications of the industry
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and its condition relative to this country to-day. I should like to start, as is only proper, by disclosing to your Lordships exactly where I stand personally in the matter. I am interested in films from the point of view of being a director of the Kodak Company, but the Kodak Company does not interest itself in production or theatres or in any way, so to speak, in the showing side of films. All it does is to sell films to anybody who wants to buy them. Therefore I have no prejudices, no feelings, no interest in this larger question of films at all—I am quite unbiased.
It would be almost a waste of time to try and emphasize the power of the film throughout the world to-day. It is part of our lives. We all go to the films. It is part of our daily hope that we shall go to more. The film brings us a message and it has great entertainment value. At the beginning of my remarks I would pay tribute to the American industry for the remarkable way in which it has produced thousands of films for a world thirsty for them. I do not say they have all been super films—far from it—but the demand for films is enormous, and Hollywood has risen to the occasion and supplied that demand. It is, of course, lucky and interesting that the Americans and ourselves should speak the same language. Consequently our films are interchangeable, and all over the world English-speaking films, which of course include the American ones, are predominant. That is having a most healthy effect in spreading the English language throughout the world. I do not suppose there is anything more important for the future peace and understanding of nations than that we should get a common language. The film is helping in that regard more than any other agent. If the Americans have a genius for anything in particular over and above us I should say it is for mass production. In the mass producing of anything, I suppose, the Americans stand in a class by themselves, but film production is not mass producing in any way. It is an expression of art, literature, imagination, and technical skill, and there is no reason at all why we should not be able to hold our own in this and to produce as good films as the Americans, or better. But, so far, we have not done it. The time is coming when this sad defect in

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our national effort should have attention drawn to it. It is an extraordinary thing that the flow of films is one way from America to this country. America today occupies no less than 80 per cent. of our screen time.
There is a financial point on which I wish to speak briefly to start with. The earnings from American films during the war were frozen and not allowed to be exported. Then the Treasury allowed the money to go out. In 1939 £11,500,000 were passed to America; in 1942 £17,000,000 were sent to America; and now, I should imagine, the figure is round about £20,000,000. That goes entirely un-taxed. It is on that particular point I would like to say a word. Of all imports into a country I suppose a film is economically the poorest type for the reason that it has no physical advantage. You bring a plough into the country and you can plough with it; if you bring machinery you can manufacture something with it; but the importation of a film is different. Although the film certainly has an entertainment value and may have an uplift or a down drag, it is ephemeral, and consequently stands in a very different category to ordinary imports. The procedure to-day is that the negative of a film is brought into the country and has duty paid upon it as celluloid, quite irrespective of its entertainment value after it has been printed from and shown. When we as citizens of this country know how the Treasury helps us and attracts every possible penny out of our pockets, it seems extraordinary that they have not devised a method whereby some of this vast amount of money should be taxed on some different basis.
At present, usually, a subsidiary company operates for the American company and sends them the gains that they get, or it may be that the film is assessed for its earning power and then the rights are sold and the money passes to America in that way. But the fact remains that at present about £20,000,000 is going to America for films. And here I want to draw your Lordships' attention to a very curious thing, which is that when the money was frozen, when we had, so to speak, a whip hand on America, we were allowed to show English films in America, but from the moment the money was unfrozen not another film has been shown in
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America. Having dealt with the financial point, to which I hope the Treasury in conjunction with the Board of Trade will give attention, I want to try and explain the organization and the method under which the film industry operates. Like Gaul, it is divided into three parts.
THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC WARFARE (THE EARL OF SELBORNE): Gaul was divided into four parts.
LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: Well, in Caesar's book it is in three parts. First of all, there is the producer. Of course his is an imaginative game, a risky game, a game of great technical skill, a game of great imagination. His is a world almost of its own and exceedingly difficult. Then there is the renter, who, so to speak, is the middle man between the producer and the theatre. His job is to sell the film, to place it in the theatre, to advertise it and to get out all those articles you see in the many papers up and down the world about the amazing film that is always arriving next week. That is part of the renter's job. Finally, we come to the exhibitor, and the exhibitor is what we know as the ordinary theatre owner. I am going to speak of them afterwards as theatres. You may have people who produce and do nothing else. There are two outstanding examples of that in America—Univcrsals and United Artists, although they are tied up with the rent people at the same time. Then there are renters and independent renters who have got together in a very strong organization about which I will say a word later. And then there are the exhibitors owning the theatres. In America there are 16,000 of them and in our own country about 5,000.
I want to draw your Lordships' attention to the organization of this industry in America. There are open and vertical trusts having organizations—big companies—that not only produce but rent and own theatres where they show their own films. It is just as well your Lordships should know what the five are. There is Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, there is Paramount, there is R.K.O. which stands curiously enough for Radio Keith Orpheum, Twentieth Century Fox, and Warner Brothers. They, as I have just said, produce and rent. They have between them certainly 50 per cent. of the most worth-while theatres in America.
Now we pass to the English side. On the English side there is a vertical trust in

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the original Gaumont-British block. They produced, rented, and distributed, and had their own theatres. Then Mr. Ostrier, one of three brothers who controlled it, went in for production, and from that day, instead of gaining money, they lost money. It was a very sad thing for English films when that occurred, because subsequently a company was floated, Odeon, and it was laid down in the prospectus that it would be no part of their business to produce, showing that people had lost heart in the ability of this country to produce, a very sad thing indeed. Apart from those two, Gaumont-British and Odeon, there is the A.B.C. That was a result of the activities of Mr. Maxwell. Besides that there are, of course, countless independent theatres. It is here that the figure of Mr. Arthur Rank looms large. I have met all these people, and I am not here to plead the cause of Mr. Rank or anybody else. I am trying to put the situation, as I see it, as to what is best for the film industry. But it is a curious tiling that, although many people disapprove violently of what may be called the Rank policy, I have never heard one single word in the film world against Mr. Rank personally. That is a very remarkable thing, and I think it is a great tribute to him.
I believe that underlying all his activities—because after all he started as a rich man, who was not out to accumulate money—is his desire not only to see good British films produced but that those films should go overseas and into America. I believe that that is in the heart of all of us too. We want to know why that is not happening. Mr. Rank centrals Gaumont-British and he controls Odeon, so that he has by that control no less than 600 out of 5,000 theatres in this country. The only rival he has is A.B.C., Associated British Cinemas. They have 350. Here I want to put a question to the Government. They are now telling people what they ought to buy and what they ought not to buy. How was it, then, that they allowed a. quarter share of the A.B.C. company to be sold to Warner Brothers, one of the American leading vertical trusts, when it would have been better if it had been sold to some English industry? No doubt the Minister will say a word on that in reply.
The Rank group, if I may so call it, speaks with great power to the Americans.
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Mark you, there are some people who think Mr. Rank has approached this subject from a very curious angle. They put the analogy that if you were trying to set up a big motor business you would not first buy all the motor car shops in London, and produce a motor car afterwards. It is not quite analogous, but I think a good deal of the animus against Mr. Rank is due to the number of theatres he owns. I want to say that that is not so vicious as many people imagine, for this reason, that nobody would be wise or business-like to buy all the cinema theatres in England, because if he had too many he would put himself in the hands of the Americans. They would then be able to dictate the price he should pay for films, because people will have American films, they will have the best films, and if he had to get them and there were no other theatres he would have to pay the price the Americans wanted. The danger of a monopoly from the point of view of theatre control is therefore more imaginary than anything else.
But the Board of Trade have taken up a most singular attitude in the matter. They have—I think without any powers— got him to agree not to buy any more theatres without their consent. It looks as if that action can only have been taken because the Board of Trade think there is a monopoly. Having made up their minds that they think there is a monopoly, and having taken this attitude relative to Mr. Rank, they then set up a Committee to inquire into the question, if there is a monopoly, what should they do about that monopoly—a most extraordinary situation. It is rather as if you sent a man to gaol first and tried him afterwards. That is the sort of attitude that the Board of Trade have taken up and I see they have now extended their activity to A.B.C. Only this morning it is said that A.B.C. are not to buy any more theatres without their consent, a very curious action which I think wants explanation, especially as it is taken before the Committee they have set up has reported.
Now I want to impress this point on your Lordships. Shakespeare once said "The play's the thing." And it is the same in the film industry. The film is the thing, nothing else. You or I and the people of England do not go to cinema theatres because they are big buildings or

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because they are very magnificent to look at. People go to see films that they wish to see. You may find one of these great palaces empty one day and then, perhaps the next day, because there are notices outside that a certain film is being shown, that theatre is crowded. That is because, as I say, people go to see films, and I maintain that no combine or monopoly will ever stop the people seeing the film they want to see. If the big circuits try to bar a film there are still the independents, and if the independents bar it, then people will go and see that film in a tent in a field. They will see the film they want to see. For that reason I do not think there is anything like the danger people envisage in the acquisition of many theatres in one block. After all, if you have a theatre, what is your business? It is to get clients to enter the theatre. Why should you ever want to bar any particular film?
I pass now to the renters. Here a very curious situation arises. The renters have combined themselves into an organization called the K.R.S., the Kine-matograph Renters Society. It is a curious body because they are all bound by the decision of the majority, and on the council of this body the American vertical trusts have a majority. Their object, of course, is to try and squeeze as much money out of the exhibitor as they possibly can. It is curious to note that their success is such that the amount paid for films in this country exceeds what is paid in America on a percentage basis. In America you have to pay 35 per cent. of your takings and here you have to pay 42 per cent. This combination of vertical trusts in America was held by the Government to be a restraint on trade, and the great combines were put into the Courts. After a long argument an agreement was come to without anybody being sentenced. A consent decree was agreed to in America and Clause 5 of that decree forbids conditional selling. Conditional selling is rampant here. Conditional selling means that if you take one film you have got to take another. If you take a film that is not A class you have to take a film of A class. That was held to be in restraint of trade in America, and I urgently put before the Board of Trade that the situation in that regard wants looking into now. Instead of that, it
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is allowed to drift on and many people are exceedingly unhappy as to how that particular organization of renting works.
Now I want to try to show how very little national we are in this matter and how exceedingly international. There is a gentleman—I do not know him; I know nothing against him, and he is probably a most charming and excellent man— called Eckman. Mr. Eckman is the managing director of Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer in this country, a representative of one of the biggest of the American vertical trusts. He is a very prominent member of the K.R.S. and dominates it, I suppose, as much as anybody can. His interests are, of course, American, but we find him on the Films Council. The Films Council is an organization set up by the Board of Trade to advise the Board about British films and how the British film industry may be made more healthy. Yet upon that organization we find this protagonist of America—a most extraordinary situation.
There is also an organization called the Hays organization, about which I should like to say a word. Mr. Will Hays is an ex-Postmaster-General in America, and is head of an organization which combines all the American industry. It is true to say that in America these big firms fight against each other, but outside America they speak with one voice, and that voice is the voice of the whole organization. Its name is the Motion Picture Producers and Distributors of America, and in this country they have as representative a Mr. Fayette W. Allport, about whom one never hears. He is ill at the moment. He is always in the background, and he is the power behind the American film interests in this country. The American organizations outside America speak with one voice. What have we in this country? We have no organization whatever which can speak for the film industry in this country—nothing at all. It is high time that the Board of Trade used their good offices to try to get the British film industry together to speak with one voice. It may be a voice crying in the wilderness, it may be a small voice, but at any rate it will be a voice; and that voice we do not hear to-day.
While we are talking about the Board of Trade and its investigation into the power of monopoly, I should like to ask the noble Earl who is to reply whether

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the activities of the Hays organization in this country will be looked into by that Committee, because: if that is not a mono- poly I do not know what is. To look into Mr. Rank's activities and not into the American activities is to prick a mouse and to leave an elephant wandering about the country. I find—I do not know whether I am right here—that there is in the Board of Trade a desire to keep the English industry in small pieces rather than in big organizations. It may well be that when you have reached a position from which you can talk to America on equal terms there may be parts of your organization that you can reorganize, and take away production from theatres, or something of that kind; but it is highly inadvisable at present. From the point of view of national policy nothing is being done, and when a man like Mr. Rank emerges, who may be strong enough to fight the Americans, he is worried with pinpricks. I do not believe that that is wise.
I have never been to Hollywood—I should like to go one day—but I have the greatest admiration for that community with its. difficulties, its imagination, its aspirations, its failures and its successes. I am certain of this, that when they have a very depressing time somebody has only to propose—of course within closed wall? —the health of the President of the Board of Trade to bring back hilarity to them. I do not know whether your Lordships realize that thirty per cent. of the net revenue of the film industry in America, the fifth biggest industry in that country comes from this country. I do not in any way complain about that; what I plead for is that there should be trade both ways. It is intolerable that so many films should be sent here and that we should not be able to send films to them. I am not saying for a moment that they are trying to stop us illegitimately. It may be that we have not films worthy to be put on their market, although that seems difficult to believe when we see some of the lower-class American films; bat it is true to say that we must produce good films before we have a right to expect them to go all over the world.
I now come to what is far and away the most important part of the film industry, and that is the production side. Here the whole situation is very tender. There is a great gambling element in it,
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and unless you have the money to ensure continuity and to carry on you will always fail. A great firm like Metro-Goldwyn will produce about forty films in a year, and out of those some six will net ninety per cent. of their money; the other thirty-four will bring in only ten per cent. If that is true of that great organization, with its enormous experience, it will also be true of people who are starting in the film industry. That is why it is exceedingly dangerous to go into production unless you have the wealth and the experience 1o carry on through difficult times until you get a "winner," because only when you get a "winner" will you be able to go forward.
It is, however, through production, and not through owning theatres or through renting, that the film industry is worth while, because it is only through that production that we can express ourselves in other countries. If we have anything to show the world about our own way of living or about anything which is peculiarly English, it can be done only by ourselves. The enormous propaganda importance of production to this country is not, I think, appreciated by the Board of Trade at present. On the production side we have been through a very tiresome time. When we were being "blitzed" every day, production fell to almost nothing. The great Sir Alexander Korda went to America—quite rightly; nightly bombing and the production of films do not go hand in hand—but Mr. Rank carried on: a very meritorious action. It is now said that he has a monopoly of production space. Times are better from the point of view of bombing, and back comes Sir Alexander Korda. He comes back from America this time as a representative of Metro-Goldwyn, who have formed a company in this country of which two-thirds is American, and he wants space to produce films. If Mr. Rank was really a monopolist at heart, this is the one man for him to stop. Did he stop him? Not at all; he got all the space he wanted to produce British films. One of the troubles of the production side is this lack of space, which is largely due to the fact that the Government have requisitioned studio space. That is a thing that wants very serious investigation because some of the space he used for most trivial pur-

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poses. If it is true, as I am sure Lord Grantley will agree, that there is a shortage of studio space, it is high time that the Government co-ordinated the situation and released more studio space for production.
I do not resent Sir Alexander Korda coming back, in spite of the fact that it is an American company, and for this reason —we are still young in skill of production. We have got a lot to learn. When you have got a great company like Metro-Goldwyn behind you, you have continuity of policy. You may have six or eight failures but you can build up in this country an organization which will know about film production—its artists, its scenario writers, its technicians, its camera men, and that sort of thing. You would get a community of people from whom at any time, if another company wishes to start and try its luck in producing, the personnel can be drawn and from which you will be able to get, not amateurs, but really skilled people.
What I have said will, I hope, impress your Lordships that in the matter of production you have got to be big. If you are in a small way of production the odds are you will probably fail. What has Parliament done in this matter up to now? The 1927 Act laid down that as all our screen time was occupied by American films there must be a quota and 20 per cent. of the time on the screen must be devoted to English films. That sounds grand, but you never know what the effect of Acts of Parliament is going to be. The classic example is the Act of Parliament which exempted graveyards from local rates; within three years the whole of England was declared a graveyard! You never know what is going to happen. What did happen under the Quota Act was that Americans came over to this country, and produced their 20 per cent. here. They made, deliberately, the worst films that have ever been put on the screen on purpose, so that English films stank throughout the country and everywhere. Was that a very friendly act? Is that the sort of thing we are advised to do by representatives of our Films Council? It was a most unfriendly thing to do. Then came the Act of 1938, when it was realized that these tin-pot films which fulfilled the quota were doing immense harm. The quality test was
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introduced, so that any film upon which you had spent more than £22,000 ranked for double quota, and if you spent over £37,000 the film ranked for treble quota. I have talked to Mr. O'Brien, who leads the great trade union of cinema photographers and other operatives, and I find him a man who really redounds to the credit of this country. He is a great trade unionist who not only looks after his own particular men but has the imagination to look after and think about the industry as a whole. He considers that it would be possible to have a reverse quota in America—a quota of their screen time in relation to the screen time of this country. Personally I think that is a very difficult thing, but it might be done and the suggestion does warrant investigation.
I should like to put the point of view of Mr. Michael Balcon. Mr. Michael Balcon is a very great opponent of the American ascendancy. He is a talented producer, a charming man. He produced the "San Demetrio" film. I do not know whether your Lordships have seen it, but it is extremely good. He takes the view that as a small producer, when there were three great circuits—A.B.C., the Odeon and Gaumont-British—he had a chance of selling his films, but when he sees there is only going to be one he considers he has no chance. I cannot follow that argument at all. It assumes that the owners of these big theatres are going deliberately to show their own films even if they are bad and lose money on them. I have tried to point out before that the exhibitors will always want the best films. If they do not make them they must get them from somewhere else, and I cannot see why they should take American films rather than English films. I hope that that attitude of defeatism will not be followed.
We are going to have the great privilege of hearing a speech from Lord Grantley later in the debate. I know your Lordships will welcome him here because not only is it his first speech in your Lordships' House, but he has had a vast experience for many years of this industry. He has always ornamented it and is generally looked up to.
In conclusion I want to say this. First of all to the trade. Cannot something be done to get them together, to bury their extraordinary animosities towards each other, so that they speak with a

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voice that means something for this country and can organize themselves in some arrangement in which only English interests are represented and not foreigners? To the Board of Trade I say this: In these clays when the Government meddles and muddles with everything, if you must meddle try to be constructive and not destructive; build and do not pull down; help and do not be a hindrance. There is, I am confident, a partnership between America and this country under which one day the film world must be better balanced than at present to teach the world many things. We do not resent American domination in any way. We are lucky indeed that the domination of our screen is by a great Ally and not by one of the Axis partners, which might very easily have happened. But the time has come to see. that this industry, so important for propaganda purpose, for the spread of prestige of this country, should grow in strength and vigour and take its share side by side with America as a great picture-producing country. I beg to move.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I am sure we are all exceedingly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, who speaks on this subject with a really exceptional fund of inside knowledge and long personal experience, for having focused the attention of the House to-day on the film industry. The cinema in these days follows close behind the wireless and the daily Press in the shaping of public opinion. It is therefore right and proper that Parliament should keep a watchful eye on the changing conditions in this young and growing industry. We all hope—I am perfectly certain the hops is shared by everyone in the House—that this industry will reach maturity at the highest level of technical and financial efficiency, strong enough to stand on its own legs in the face of any competitor from overseas, and offering to the public the widest possible range of choice in high-scale entertainment and even occasionally instruction.
The question really is whether the film industry will ever be able to reach this stage of development by the sole agency of those engaged in its operation and without any help or guidance from public authority. I believe that the history of its growth in recent years is pretty convincing evidence that, if it were left
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alone to follow its own devices, there is a real danger that it might sail straight from the Scylla of unlimited and uneconomic competition to the Charybdis of private monopoly. So long as the industry here was made up of a large number of small firms and companies, too impecunious to do anything much other than undercut one another, there was little prospect of the improved efficiency essential to large-scale film production. A happy combination of bankruptcy and amalgamation by purchase gradually eliminated the weaker brethren, but at this point it may be fairly said that the remedy began to look almost as dangerous as the disease. A single financial interest, to which the noble Lord has already referred, acquired two of the great cinema circuits, including half of the cinemas in London, the largest distributing agency in the country, and half of the studios available for film production.
It was at this juncture that the Board of Trade stepped in, and it did not do so unasked. The Cinematograph Films Council, of which half the members represent this country, and not merely the trade from another part of the world, requested the Department to take whatever action might be considered necessary to prevent the absorption of the whole industry by one financial giant. The President of the Board of Trade acceded to this request. He asked Mr. Rank to refrain from purchasing a controlling interest in the third and last of the main cinema circuits, and to consult him before adding further to his already substantial collection of film studios. This public-spirited gentleman did not hesitate to give the required undertaking. It is not a little remarkable that we have heard no complaints from Mr. Rank, who has the largest single interest in the film industry. He does not share, apparently, the noble Lord's dissatisfaction with the action of the Board of Trade. From first to last Mr. Rank has shown a keen desire to co-operate in a scheme considered by the Government to be a safeguard from the public point of view as well as in the best interests of the film industry.
It is hard to see how exception can be taken to the action of the President of the Board of Trade by anyone who takes a completely impartial view of the problem, whether it is seen from the angle of the film-going public or from the angle

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of the cinema owner and cinema producer. So long as we attach our present value to the free circulation of opinions of all sorts as a necessary condition of democratic government, we cannot allow one man, however wise enlightened or progressive he may to establish sole control over any of the present organs for the dissemination of ideas and information among the public. We must, at all costs preserve the independence of the Press, the wireless, and the cinema. These are the three key points for the exercise of a wholesome influence on public opinion, and their independence of monopolistic control is an indispensable safeguard for democratic institutions. What has happened already over a number of years in totalitarian States shows the intimate connexion between control of publicity and political power. But if an independent and reasonably competitive industry is desirable for a healthy state of public opinion, it is no less important if a high level of efficiency is to be reached and maintained by the film industry. I cannot imagine any industry less suited to the standardization and mass-production methods of a giant monopoly, whether the owner of the monopoly be a business magnate or the State. A film that grips the public owes its success, as the noble Lord has already said, to the inventiveness of film technicians, to the imaginative conception of a first-rate producer, and to the willingness of business men to risk their money in order to put something really original on to the screen. The vitality of the cinema depends wholly, just as much as the vitality of the stage, on its independence of Government Departments and multiple theatre owners. I cannot conceive anything more likely to kill it than a form of control that would tend to discourage experiment, to stifle originality, to cut out risk-taking, and to standardize whatever picture has the greatest commercial success.
It is for these reasons that, in contradistinction to the noble Lord who preceded me, I welcome the action of the Government in preventing what is obviously a healthy process of rationalization from degenerating into a malignant monopolistic growth, but I greatly hope that they will not rest on laurels so easily acquired. The stand-still agreement may
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freeze the film industry until the end of the war, and it has been taken a step further by the recent undertaking from the A.B.C. circuit to which the noble Lord referred. But the partnership on which the whole relationship is based between industry and the State is one along many that will be strained to breaking point with the return of peace. I cannot see any prospect of long-term security for the public, unless the Government can devise some form of statutory safeguard against a resumption of the trend towards monopoly. The only effective safeguard is one that comes in time, and I hope that action will be taken during the current year. I sincerely trust that the Committee of inquiry that the Board has appointed will report as soon as possible, and that its Report will not have the fate of many others and be put immediately into pigeon holes. What I should like to be certain about is that the Government are in fact already turning their minds towards the future, and I hope the noble Earl who replies will have something to say on that subject. I trust that they will not hesitate to do whatever they feel should be done to encourage an independent and successful film industry in this country, and at the same time to protect the public from the serious constitutional dangers inherent in this type of monopoly.
LORD GRANTLEY: My Lords, in prolonging this debate I will try to give you such experience as I have of this tempestuous business in which I have been engaged for some fifteen years. I feel that what we have heard from my noble friend Lord Brabazon is so well informed in general that he might well have been engaged in the last fifteen years in the battles that I have had. Before I make any further remarks to your Lordships, it will be proper, I think, to say that I am not like my noble friend Lord Brabazon of Tara only slenderly connected with the business. I am very closely connected with the film business, and with Mr. Rank's various interests (particularly D. & P. studios) during the last six years. I feel that the general public, and indeed perhaps your Lordships, are unaware what an enormous business this is, and what a colossal industry it is. It is a curious thing that some of the industries which do not sound important and are not perhaps worthy of

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continual leaders in The Times, are indeed from the point of view of turnover greater than some of the heavier and more important and serious industries that so frequently engage the attention of your Lordships' House. I am credibly informed that the Box Office receipts in this country of the cinema industry, which now is the turnover of the cinema industry, show a considerable increase to £100,000,000 per annum. The importance of the industry in America is very considerable. They talk about it as if it were a desperately serious thing. I do not think we do so here.
We have, heard, and my sympathy is very much with the speakers, a great deal about the American domination of this industry. It is there and I frankly cannot see why we should persuade the Americans for love to stop trying to dominate the industry. I think that if we dominated any industry in this great Empire of ours we should try to stick to that domination. At the same time I do not see why we should not struggle, or why the Government should not help us to struggle to better it in a more practical manner than they do at present. We did not do for the industry what we should have done after the last war. How lucky we are, as Lord Brabazon said, that the film industry with its immense propaganda potentialities is dominated by Americans and not perhaps by some enemy country. How lucky we are that when we were joined in battle with our enemies we had a friendly neighbour with the power to assist us with propa- ganda in the British Empire. How grateful we should be that our Allies the Americans have consistently made films which show quite rightly the grandeur of the traditions of this country. In this connexion I may mention such films as "Lloyds of London" and "Mrs. Miniver." How lucky we are to have had this help. But I do not think the industry can fight its battles entirely alone, as it is doing at present.
I feel less concerned at the moment with what I may call the fiscal or trade angles than I am with propaganda angles in the film industry. There are three main channels of propaganda in the world, the newspapers, broadcasting and films. I have heard the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, speak of independence Films are always bound to be independent pro-
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paganda because they are bought. You pay 3s. 6d. to go and see a film you like, and the public will never be dictated to; they will go to see the film that they want to see. I would like to point out to your Lordships something that may not have struck you about films. From the point of view of domestic propaganda, everyday-life propaganda, it seems to me they are the most important medium of propaganda and of education that exists. If I may for a moment mention something i that sounds perhaps frivolous, what has made little boys throughout this country say "O.K." instead of "Yes"? What has made ladies do whatever they do to blacken their eyebrows, not by the thousands but by the millions? The film business. The simplest method of propaganda to the millions is a picture. I myself, when I go into a club, am inclined to pick up an illustrated magazine rather than a written one, because it is so much easier to see something with your eye.
I admit that the Government were far-sighted in 1927 when they made an attempt to protect the industry with the 1927 Bill. What puzzles me is that, when that legislation came up for review in 1937 and 1938, they persisted with the formula that has proved itself a failure. That has only resulted, as my noble friend Lord Brabazon said, in encouraging quick pictures, as we used to call them, cheap pictures which did not redound to the credit of the British film industry. Although many suggestions were made both of a fiscal character and otherwise, that we should depart from a quota system with small qualitative alterations, it is true that the 1938 Act and the admirable Report on the industry presented by my noble friend Lord Moyne, did help the industry from 1938 onwards. The bad pictures decreased by means of the quantitative restrictions that were imposed under the Act and good pictures came on to the screen. But it is still the wrong system and I would like to see the Act taken off the Statute Book.
I have to-day drawn out a little memorandum with a friend of mine, who I think is more knowledgeable than any other human being in this country about the history of the films, and I am going to ask your Lordships' indulgence to read it:
"Prosperity in the film industry depends mainly on the maintenance or improvement of

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the present economic conditions in it. Those conditions require an improved export trade and this in turn in the last analysis means an improvement in our film exports to the United States. In order that those aspirations might not be obstructed or affected by the exchange situation, it should be noted that an improvement in film exports would probably have the effect of an improvement in our film imports from that country. This would mean a higher grade of film imported and a higher level of prosperity in the British cinemas. The linking of these two factors cannot be over-estimated. A practical proposal for giving effect to this policy does not necessarily involve negotiations between two Governments. What could be attempted, and the Government might promise their good offices in bringing them into being, would be conversations between the representatives of the trade of the two countries. Only if these conversations prove abortive need we consider any direct conversations between the two Governments.
One other condition of prosperity is peace in the industry. Far too much time and effort have been spent in the past over squabbles or civil war between the different departments of the industry. This is a natural result of the eternal struggle between the producer (or renter) and the exhibitor, and nine-tenths of that struggle centres round the perennial question of prices for films or the charges made by the renter to the exhibitor for the films shown. In my opinion, this struggle should be brought to an end as soon as possible and the history of the recent past has made it clear that arbitration tribunals (if necessary compulsory) should be introduced into the structure of the film trade. The perpetual conflict about film rentals, grading, bars, etc., and other similar questions, will thereupon come to an end and economic and equitable participation of the revenues of the industry between producer and exhibitor will be finally settled.
I must apologize to your Lordships for being a little technical in that last part.
Pictures can only be made by writers and directors, and means to keep them in this country can only be obtained with money. Mr. Rank is the only man lately who has attempted to do so. I am the last person in the world to wish to see any monopoly in the film industry. But I personally, so far from worrying about the so-called Rank monopoly or about the fear that Mr. Rank might become a Colossus of the industry striding over it, would like to see one or two more like Mr. Rank to help us, because money is the only thing that puts pictures on celluloid. Mr. Rank did not forget the importance of improving the quality of English pictures in this country. But, however good may be the pictures that are coming along, they will be of no value if they cannot be
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marketed well. It is no good having good commodities if markets are shut against you by arbitrary factors. Good marketing can only be achieved by what Mr. Rank has tried to do, by setting up large vertical structures with a dominant position in foreign markets such as ownership of theatres. This can only be achieved with ample finance and with all possible assistance from the Government.
I myself feel that assistance from the Government is suffering because of a body called the Films Council. I do not feel that the Films Council set up under the 1938 Act has achieved any good or that it has the right composition. I myself was a member of it for two years. I have to speak with great discretion, the Council being a statutory Committee and its proceedings secret, but as far as I can make out the record of the Films Council is an annual factual survey of the industry and the setting up of one Committee lately, a Committee to examine into the possible danger of monopolistic tendencies. The Films Council, broadly speaking, was set up to advise the President of the Board of Trade regarding the administration of the Act and to keep the President of the Board of Trade well advised regarding trends in the industry. I do not think it has done that and I feel inclined to quote to your Lordships a criticism of the Films Council made to me by a colleague of mine on the Council. He said he did not think useful advice could be given to the President of the Board of Trade on the subject of the film industry by twenty just men and a statutory woman. That is just exactly what I feel about the Films Council.
I would like to point out one other fact about the Films Council. The setting up of that Council had for its object, as I understand, the furtherance of British film making, and I hope subsequently the marketing of films. The composition of the Films Council is twenty-one people, of whom eleven are distinguished laymen outside the trade and ten are members of the film trade. Of the ten members of the film trade two, I think, are concerned with or represent film making. The other eight are divided, four being concerned with film distribution and four with film exhibition. You can take it that in this country all those concerned with film distribution or film exhibition live on and draw their life blood from American films.

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It is no good ray offering simply destructive criticism of the present Act without making some constructive suggestions. I think the simplest thing during the war would be to try and draft some legislation, which if Parliamentary time can be given could be quickly passed without any controversy, to enable a smaller Council to be set up with no trade members and carrying with it a high odour of national interest—I repeat national interest. I would like the Committee to be a whole-time Committee, in constant touch with trade associations and Government Departments. With great humility I suggest to your Lordships that it might include an expert on education, and at this point I would like to inform your Lordships that either I am blind or there is no mention of the word "films" in the new. Education Bill now before another place. That seems astonishing to me. My second member would be an expert from the Foreign Office, and I think there should also be an expert from the industries and manufactures department of the Board of Trade and an expert from the Ministry of Information. I think the Chairman, perhaps, should be the only member not in very close contact with the Government, perhaps a man of immense financial experience, perhaps, if you like, a Member of Parliament.
My last word to your Lordships would be to repeat that this debate will have been useful if it has impressed upon your Lordships, and in so far as possible upon the public, the really enormous propaganda value of the film business. I am willing for the moment during the war to forget the industrial importance of it, but I am not willing to forget the propaganda importance of it.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I am sure I shall carry the whole of your Lordships with me in congratulating my noble friend Lord Grantley on his maiden speech in this House. Not only because of the manner and the brevity of its delivery, but because his speech was packed with moat valuable information. I am sure your Lordships will regret with me that we had not the privilege of his presence in this House when the various Film Acts were before us. I think we might have put them into better shape if we had had his intimate and expert knowledge. As one who has been inter-
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ested in the progress of the British film industry for many years I offer the noble Lord congratulations from this side of the House, and I am sure all your Lordships will join in those congratulations. If he will allow me I should like to make some comments on his speech and I would venture most strongly to support his suggestion that there should be an advisory council composed of eminent persons not connected with the trade. That is a most valuable suggestion and I agree that it should be a small body, although I think it ought to include one statutory woman. I should also like to support him in his plea for some assistance from the Government, especially after the war, for the industry. He did not specify exactly what he meant, but I will specify what I have in mind and I hope to carry him with me. My noble friend the Earl of Listowel has already thanked the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, for having brought this subject up again. We have discussed it several times in recent years, but I think it is valuable in changing circumstances that there should be another debate now.
First of all I would like to deal with the action taken by the President of the Board of Trade with regard to Mr. Arthur Rank and the A.B.C. circuits. He has been defended already by my noble friend the Earl of Listowel, and I am willing to defend Mr. Dalton also despite the fact that Mr. Rank was a constituent of mine when I was in another place and I have known him for many years. It is perfectly true to say he has not a monopoly. My noble friend Lord Brabazon gave figures to your Lordships but he omitted one factor. He pointed out that Mr. Rank has about half the studio space not taken by the Government—I think that is what he meant by available space—and about 600 theatres. The A.B.C. circuit has about 400, I think, not 350 as stated by Lord Brabazon. Those are the two biggest groups of theatres. What the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, omitted to remind your Lordships of is the fact that they are mostly very large supercinemas and that the other 3,000 or 2,500 cinemas include all the smaller ones, even village halls only showing films once a week. But it is the super-cinemas, the prestige theatres, which are owned or controlled for the most part by these two great groups. Nevertheless it is wrong to say that Mr. Rank has a monopoly at

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present. But what obviously influenced Mr. Dalton and, I think, would influence any Government in their senses, was the danger that a monopoly might be created. After all Mr. Rank is a human being and one day somebody will inherit the cinematograph empire he has created.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Only fifty per cent. of it.
LORD STRABOLGI: I have discussed this very matter with Mr. Rank himself quite recently and I put that point to him. I suggest that his trustees would be faced with heavy Death Duties and might have to sell. I must not say what he told me, but I believe the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, is entirely wrong. He can so arrange matters that the organization he creates will not be broken up and the Government will not get fifty per cent. of the film empire as I call it, unless they accept payment in kind for Death Duties, which I have long advocated in regard to land. There is a danger, I think, of its getting into other hands. In any case—I am going to speak perfectly frankly—the political influence of the films can be enormous, and particularly the influence of the news reels. Selection of news is what really gives a newspaper proprietor his power and the selection of the news in the news reels will give whoever controls them their power. I am sure no member of my Party nor anybody with the interests of democracy at heart would willingly and without a qualm see this immense power over the minds of the citizens and on the education of the young pass into the hands of a small group. That would be a very dangerous thing. We should be very alarmed if there was any suggestion of all the great newspapers getting into the hands of one group, and I am sure my noble friend Lord Southwood would have something to say about it at once if any such thing seemed likely. Any monopoly of theatres, production, studio space, technicians, skilled writers and workers and the rest, in this vast intricate industry would, we believe, be harmful and dangerous. I cannot understand why my noble friend Lord Brabazon should come here and make a gratuitous attack on the President of the Board of Trade for acting in what I believe the majority of people would say was a perfectly proper manner. He
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wanted to safeguard the position, and without using the cudgel of a Parliamentary Bill he spoke to the owners of these two great groups of cinemas, was met immediately and handsomely by them, and the immediate danger was averted.
LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: Why did he set up a Committee afterwards?
LORD STRABOLGI: Because we have to think of the future. I think it was a perfectly right thing to do. He did not punish Mr. Rank and we have heard no complaints from Mr. Rank or the Maxwell interests about the President's action. As to the future, your Lordships have heard a very authoritative statement about playing time as it is called, that is screen time, in the United States. It is tremendously important to have a certain share of this if we are to be able to produce the high quality films in this country without losing a great deal of money. It must be remembered that America means Canada in this connexion, and it must be remembered also that the most important theatres in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa are almost completely controlled by the American cinema magnates. The Australian and New Zealand situation is very bad from our point of view. Those two countries are too small in population to support a large film producing industry, at present at any rate, and yet all the important theatres in Australia and New Zealand are controlled by the American interests and it is most difficult to have British films shown in them.
We shall be in a very strong bargaining position after the war. The British market is the second largest English-speaking market for films in the world. As I think Lord Brabazon reminded your Lordships—but I shall put it in a different way—the profits on the American superpictures are made in this country. They "come out even" in their home country, where there is a great deal of competition, and the profit comes from this country. That is a very great bargaining asset; but we must be able, if the worst comes to the worst, to supply British films for our own theatres.
What can the Government do? I should have thought that diplomatic action was justified later on. I think that we have a right to bargain with the Americans on this matter. I am not

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taking up an anti-American attitude at all. We shall have to bargain with America in a friendly way on other great matters, such as civil aviation and foreign trade; why not bargain with them, on the highest level, on this question of reasonable playing time for suitable British films? It has not been attempted in the past because we have been in a weak position in many ways, and not least diplomatically; but after the war we shall have immense prestige, and we should have a much more friendly feeling with America, as comrades in arms. I think, therefore, that reciprocity could be obtained by friendly arrangement.
I have another suggestion to make. I think that whatever happens to the Ministry of Information after the war—I suppose there will be an outcry to abolish it immediately—the Film Division of the Ministry should be kept in being. It has accomplished a very remarkable task during the war. I do not want to trouble your Lordships with more than one figure, but in the third year of the war 18,000,000 people saw non-theatrical showings of Ministry of Information educational films produced for various Ministries, such as the Ministry of Agriculture, Home Office, War Office, and for the Home Guard and so on. These films were shown outside ordinary theatres; and the sponsored films have been on the whole very successful also. They have done excellent work in the war. We have a nucleus there, I believe, of a very valuable department which any Government will require in the future. The easiest way to introduce a new Government policy to the people, such as a new agricultural policy, is by means of a film. We are doing it in the war; why not continue to do it in time of peace when the need will also be urgent? I hope that that suggestion will be adopted. I also hope that the studio space which the Government have taken—I am not referring to the studios used for storage but the fully-equipped studios—should be retained under the control of the Government after the war for renting to reputable producers, so preventing any monopoly on the production side.
Thirdly, I hope further study will be given to the idea of a Government-controlled corporation to finance suitable films. A hint of this was given in Lord Grantley's admirable speech. This is not
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a wild Socialistic idea; a scheme for it was carried a great distance forward by Sir Andrew Duncan, when he was President of the Board of Trade. I am told from disinterested sources with knowledge that it would be of very great value to have something of that kind. The difficulty is to get people who understand the business to administer this film finance corporation; such people do not grow on gooseberry bushes, but they can be found. I hope also that part of the finance for this Government film backing may be provided by an ad valorem tax on foreign films. Such a tax is a very great bargaining weapon. I think that those suggestions arc worthy of some attention, and with great humility I put them forward, once more thanking the noble Lords who have spoken, and especially Lord Grantley, for what they have told your Lordships to-day.
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: My Lords, I want to say only a few words in order to reinforce the plea made by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, that after the war the Government should go into the film-making business from the educational side. When I was in the United States some years ago I was very much impressed by the scientific films which were then being shown in the universities and in some of the schools. They were very clear and well done. Like Lord Grantley —whom I should like to congratulate very much on his eloquent speech—I would express great disappointment that nothing is said in the Education Bill about films. It seems to me that in the future the possibilities of instruction by film must be enormous, yet so far the Government seem very little aware of those possibilities. I suggest that all those organs of the Government which are now used for making motion pictures—the Ministry of Information, which has done some magnificent work, the War Office and others—should be collected together and made into a Government film-producing unit which should turn out educational films for our schools, and also educational films which might be exchanged or sold abroad to the Empire and to the United States. I feel convinced that there is a great future in this form of education, and at the same time it would fulfil the need of giving our own ideas and our own (to use an unpleasant word) propaganda to the world, our own English

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ideas on many different matters. I hope most sincerely that the Government will consider that, and will enter as a partner in the film-producing business.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, I should like to make another appeal for the British point of view on this question. This is a field in which so many non-British interests and personalities intervene that I think your Lordships will agree that it would be right, if time permitted, for many voices to be raised here to support the representations which I am sure the noble Earl who is to reply will make to the President of the Board of Trade as to the points emphasized in this debate. This is a large industry; Lord Grantley has called attention to the volume of its turnover, and Lord Brabazon has emphasized the high percentage of the revenue of the American producers which is represented by the British market.
This has been in some ways a unique debate. Lord Brabazon has done a great service by examining this industry carefully, and not hesitating to mention by name personalities in the industry and to examine their operations. He has thus shown what an intimate acquaintance he has obtained with an industry in which he has no direct interest. That is a precedent which might well be followed in the case of other industries, which, with the exception of the coal trade, the rayon industry and parts of the chemical industry, have not often been dealt with in your Lordships' House. It would be serving a good purpose if these industries were discussed here, where we are without the handicap of discussions in another place, where votes are considered necessary, so that Ministers may be guided by the opinions expressed.
The film industry is a great industry, for one thing by reason of the amount of money which it represents. I think we should emphasize the contribution which the Empire makes to the profits of American producers. The amounts involved from a commercial point of view are great, and have a substantial influence on the exchange problem, directly or indirectly. It has also a cultural side, and it has been said already how important it is from the British point of view that wise guidance should be given by the Government, so that the British point of view may be reflected through-
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out the world and so that the culture and prestige of the British Empire and its achievements may be made more widely known. I feel that the noble Lord, Lord Grantley, did great service in emphasizing that that aspect of the matter perhaps exceeds in importance the financial aspect. Whatever it may be, I appeal to my noble friend that he should emphasize to the President of the Board of Trade that there are very strong feelings in this country that wise action by the Government should produce something which will result in greater opportunity for British enterprise.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords: we are indebted to my noble friend Lord Brabazon of Tara for the eloquent and well-informed speech that we expected of him and in which he introduced this most interesting debate. His Majesty's Government welcome the debate because it gives them an opportunity of removing certain misapprehensions which appear to exist. I profoundly agree with my noble friend and with other noble Lords who have spoken on the very great importance of this subject. It has been a disaster that the British film industry suffered such a severe blow in the last war when its growth was paralysed through this nation being mobilized, while for three years America was still a neutral country. The American industry then obtained an ascendency which it has never lost. The years after the last war were years in which the British industry never really recovered from the blow it then suffered.
As your Lordships are aware, Parliament has twice passed legislation to try to assist the industry, the first time in 1927 and the second in 1938. I confess I was very sorry to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Grantley, to whose very important and interesting speech we were so delighted to listen this afternoon, strictures upon the Act of 1938, because in this matter he speaks with an authority which no one can deny. To hear such discouraging words from so high an authority is depressing. It is however not quite fair to judge the Act of 1938 by results up to date, because no sooner was that Act on the Statute Book than this war supervened, and the industry, certainly the production side of the industry, was exposed to exactly the same factors that had nearly crippled it in the last war. Although the Quota Act lays

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down certain quotas of British footage that have to be shown, it is impossible to realize these figures under present circumstances because, as Lord Brabazon of Tara pointed out, a large number of the studios have been requisitioned for national purposes and a very large number of the artists are engaged in one type or another of war service. Therefore it is impossible to hope that the industry can go ahead in the way we wish to see it go ahead until after the war. During the war, however, the industry has shown that it is very much alive in producing some notable films—films like "In Which We Serve"—which are as good as any films produced anywhere in the world. I agree with my noble friend Lord Brabazon of Tara when he says that there is nothing to prevent this country turning out as many first-class films as any other country in the world.
As noble Lords have said, this country owes a very great debt of gratitude to Mr. Rank for the services he has rendered to the film industry. I hope your Lordships do not think that the President of the Board of Trade or the Government arc in any way antagonistic to Mr. Rank. On the contrary, we should like to see several Mr. Ranks. He is just the type of man that industry requires, particularly the film industry. Organization and resources are most necessary in the film industry. I entirely agreed with Lord Brabazon of Tara when he said that you cannot go into the production side of the industry without great experience and great capital resources.
We ought to beware of loose thinking on the subject of monopolies. It is fashionable to condemn monopolies just as it is fashionable to demand rationalization of industry. I have heard people condemn monopolies and demand rationalization in the same speech! In recent years the State has gone to considerable lengths to help forward the rationalization of great industries like the coal industry, the steel industry, and various sections of the agricultural industry, by creating organizations which lay themselves open in certain respects to the charge of being monopolies; but, as Lord Strabolgi pointed out, there is no charge against Mr. Rank of having acquired a monopoly in this industry. The prominent position that he has attained has been due to the 600 or so theatres that
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he controls and which number among them many of an important nature. My right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade took the view that in a cultural industry such as the film industry it was undesirable that any one interest should have too great an influence, in the same way as has been said this afternoon we should none of us like to see all the newspapers owned by one person. Even in the case of the B.B.C., which is a Government monopoly, we are all aware of the inherent objections there are to any form of monopoly in a cultural industry. My right honourable friend would welcome four or five Mr. Ranks, just as we have five big banks and four great railways. We want to strike that happy mean between chaos and monopoly which is summed up in the word "rationalization."
Capital, knowledge, experience, and integrity have been brought to the industry by Mr. Rank, and we want to see several more men of that calibre assisting in building up this great industry, which is of so much importance to the whole Empire. In the view of my right honourable friend, with which I am sure your Lordships will agree, there must also be room in the industry for the small man. There must be means by which the small man can have his share in the industry and also the opportunity of getting a bigger place by his own exertions and his own ability. That is the reason why my right honourable friend entered into this perfectly voluntary understanding with Mr. Rank that he would not increase his interests without the prior consent of the President of the Board of Trade. That agreement includes the production side as well as the exhibiting side, in so far as studio space is covered by it. My right honourable friend entered into a similar agreement with the A.B.C. group for exactly the same reason, so no question of any sort of discrimination against Mr. Rank arises. On the contrary, His Majesty's Government are deeply indebted to Mr. Rank for all he has done.
My noble friend Lord Brabazon of Tara criticized the President of the Board of Trade for taking this step first and, as he put it, appointing the inquiry afterwards. That is not quite an accurate presentation of the facts. In the first place the whole question of whether Mr. Rank's influence in the industry was suffi-

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cient or not was raised before the President of the Board of Trade by the Films Council, and it is the Films Council who are conducting the inquiry. What the President of the Board of Trade has done is to enter into an agreement with Mr. Rank and with the A.B.C. group which does not prejudice any future legislation or any future decisions, but which stabilizes the position for the moment while this inquiry is proceeding.
LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: My noble friend may be quite right, and I am sure he is, in what he says, but if the Press is wrong in its announcements perhaps the Government might correct them. The Press definitely mentioned the Committee set up by the Cinematograph Films Council "at the invitation of Mr. Hugh Dalton"; that it was he who asked for it and the Council who set it up, not the other way round. If that is wrong, it should be contradicted in the Press.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: That is not contrary to what I said. It was the Films Council who drew the attention of the President of the Board of Trade to the question of so-called monopoly, and the President of the Board of Trade then invited the Films Council to hold an inquiry into the matter. Meanwhile he entered into this agreement with Mr. Rank, which was followed by a subsequent agreement with the A.B.C. group, which, as I said, stabilized the position pending that inquiry. Then Lord Brabazon made an attack on the Government for having allowed American interests to acquire half of the Maxwell interest in the A.B.C. group. That was in 1941, and I must ask your Lordships to carry your minds back to the circumstances of that time. My information is that there was no firm British offer at that moment and I would also recall the fact that the dollar position in 1941 was very difficult. But it is somewhat difficult to disinter in 1944 a matter that occurred in 1941. After all, my noble friend Lord Brabazon was a member of His Majesty's Government in 1941 and I was not, so I should rather expect that he should be able to give me information than that I should give him information. I cannot believe that with his great knowledge of the film industry he in that position would have allowed any illadvised step to be taken by the Govern-
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ment at that time. Lord Brabazon also criticized the Government because an American gentleman named Mr. Eckman was appointed a member of the Films Council. He is the only foreigner out of the twenty-one members of the Council. It is perfectly true Mr. Eckman, who is a very highly respected gentleman, is an American citizen, and I would say again in reply to my noble friend that that appointment was made in 1941 by the President of the Board of Trade in response to strong recommendations from the section of the industry with which Mr. Eckman is connected, and the statutory obligation is laid upon the President by the Act of 1938 to appoint on to the Films Council people who are representative of the industry.
My noble friend also raised the question of what he termed the danger of monopolistic tendencies of American companies. I think he mentioned the Hays organization. I would like to assure him that that matter, together with the whole question that I have been alluding to is under the careful consideration of my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade, and he hopes very much to learn the exact facts of the position from the forthcoming report of the Films Council. Then my noble friend, as did Lord Grantley, raised the vitally important point about the export trade from this country. I agree with them that the British film industry can never be in a really healthy condition until we have a much bigger export of British films than exists at the present moment.
My noble friend raised the question of the reciprocal quota system—that is to say the arrangement under which the proportion of American films shown in this country is affected by the proportion of British films shown in America. That principle was recognized in the 1938 Act, but my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade has extended the principle in the Defence Regulations which he issued in 1942. An American who acquires the foreign rights of British films can now count them against his quota in this country, and this can be made cumulative. That is very desirable because the principal factor which is limiting exports at the present moment is the shortage of output caused by the war conditions to which I have referred. Therefore if there is an unfulfilled quota

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of exports waiting for the industry after the war when the industry is in a position to take advantage of it, it will be of great benefit to the industry. I think my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade is entitled to the gratitude of those who have the welfare of the film industry at heart for what he has done by his Defence Regulations in this matter.
Then Lord Brabazon complained about the release of the sterling balances in 1942. I think, my Lords, I ought to give you the history of that matter. In 1939 it was impossible for the Government to allow all the money that was paid in cinemas here to flow freely to America, as it did in peace-time. We could not possibly afford it. The dollar position did not admit of it. Therefore, by agreement with the companies, a large portion of that money was retained here. But you really could not justify that arrangement indefinitely after the advent of Lease-Lend, and therefore the system was ended in 1942. My noble friend is mistaken in thinking that Income Tax is not paid on these profits. It is paid just as much as Income Tax is paid on any other profits in this country; but I will draw the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what the noble Lord said on this matter. It is quite true that in calculating these profits the cost of the film to the American renter or exhibitor has to be taken into account, and it is possible there is a loophole there that requires filling up. It is possible, also, that the release of the sterling balances may have led to a diminution in the number of British films that have been exported abroad. But the factors working in the other direction which I have mentioned will, I hope, tend to redress the trend,, especially when the British industry is in a position to take advantage of them.
The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, suggested that the Foreign Office might take a part in helping to promote the export of British films to America. I agree with him that this is a matter not only of commercial but also of political importance. I think it is just as important that Americans should understand the English as that the English should understand the Americans, and the more interchange of national films that there is between our two great nations the better, I think, it will be to our mutual understanding of
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each other Therefore, when the appropriate time comes, I am sure my right honourable friend, if he is still President of the Board of Trade, will not forget the noble Lord's suggestion. Lord Strabolgi urged that the Ministry of Information Film Division should be maintained after the war. I agree with the noble Lord that that division has produced some very notable films during the war. It has, indeed, done some very notable work. I understand that the matter is at the present moment under consideration, and I will see that what the noble Lord has said is brought to the attention of the appropriate authorities.
It has been suggested during this debate that if a representative organization of the industry could be created it would be of great help to its development, and the Government have been urged to take a more active part in that direction. Everything your Lordships have said will be brought to the attention of my right honourable friend, but I cannot help feeling myself that if an organization is to be really representative of an industry it has to be spontaneously generated, and While the Government can help or the Government can hinder it is very difficult for a Government to do in a matter of that sort what the industry ought really to do itself. But I can assure your Lordships that the Government, and especially my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade, are most anxious to do everything that can be done to help this great industry. We agree with what has been said this afternoon as to the importance of the industry politically as well as industrially, and we believe that the industry has a great future after the war. Any help the Government can give to this industry, as to others, I am certain my right honourable friend will be only too glad to give.
LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: My Lords, I must thank my noble friend the Earl of Selborne very much for his reply. It is rather interesting that we should have had two replies, one from the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, who replied for the President of the Board of Trade, advocating practically a State monopoly, and a reply from the Minister who has just said he would like more Ranks. It is a little difficult to steer between these rather narrow, opposed policies. I must say that I think the noble Earl, Lord Selborne,

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really did noble work when he pointed out that people who complain about monopoly advocate State control with the same voice. I cannot imagine anything more frightful happening to the film industry than that it should be run by the State. It is a terrible thought. I never envisaged this debate bringing up such a dreadful thing. However, there it is. I was delighted to hear from my noble friend that this new Committee is going to view monopolies as monopolies and is going to investigate the Hays organization. If it is going to do that useful piece of work this debate will have been worth while. I thank my noble friend very much for his reply. In regard to this question I am not going to follow the example set by Lord Londonderry in relation to civil aviation, but I shall raise the matter every six months to ensure that the President of the Board of Trade has not only started to wake but will really be awake on this very important question. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (AMENDMENT) BILL.
Amendment reported (according to Order).
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, Bill read 3a, with the Amendment.
Schedule [Amendments of 15 & 16 Geo. 5, Cap. 49]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): Before this Bill is passed I have a very small Amendment to propose. It is to insert in the Schedule of the Bill, which enacts what repeals and amendments are to be made, the same Amendment that your Lordships adopted yesterday. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
In the Schedule, page 2, line 45, after ("may") insert ("with his consent.")— (The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

DISABLED PERSONS (EMPLOYMENT) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 12 [Appropriation of vacancies in certain employments to registered persons only]:
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, there is one small Amendment to be made to this clause. It is a drafting Amendment consequential upon the Amendments which your Lordships accepted on the Committee stage of this Bill yesterday. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 27, leave out ("reinstatement") and insert ("taking a person into employment in pursuance of a statutory or contractual obligation.")—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

INDIA (ATTACHMENT OF STATES) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a(according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
House adjourned.