Sitting of 2 February 1944

Preamble
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  MIDDLE EAST SUPPLY CENTRE
  Mr. Astorasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he intends to continue and extend the activities of the Middle East Supply Centre and to associate the local governments more closely with it, with a view to its work being maintained after the war.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): The local Governments are already closely associated with the Middle East Supply Centre, and this association is continually being strengthened by means of technical conferences and other methods of collaboration. While it would be desirable to continue after the war some part of the very useful work for which the Middle East Supply Centre has been responsible, I should not be prepared yet to pronounce finally on the best machinery for doing this. But the experience which is continually being gained by the Centre will certainly be valuable in this connection.
  Mr. Astor: Can my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that its activities will not be seriously diminished or wound up without the matter being discussed in this House?
  Mr. Eden: Whatever we do we shall make known, and hon. Members will have the usual opportunities of raising the matter. There is no question at present of winding it up: on the contrary, I hope we can make use of what we are learning.
  Sir Granville Gibson: Has any decision been made to continue the activities of the Middle East Supply Centre after the war?
  Mr. Eden: That is precisely what I have been dealing with. If my hon. Friend will look at the answer, he will see that I have covered that point.

  WAR CRIMINALS (PUNISHMENT)
  Sir Geoffrey Shakespeareasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the record of gross atrocities which puts Japan outside the community of civilised nations, he will consult with the United States Government with a view to issuing a warning that the procedure agreed at the Moscow Conference for the trial of German war criminals after the war will be applied to Japan.
  Mr. Eden: The Policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to war criminals has been declared, and applies just as much to Japan as to all our enemies. His Majesty's Government are, of course, in close touch with the United States Government on this, as on all similar subjects.
  Sir John Mellorasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will issue repeated warnings to all enemies that obedience to orders of superior officers will not be accepted as any excuse for offences against British or Allied subjects or any reason for mitigation of punishment for such offences.
  Mr. Eden: I do not myself feel that repeated warnings of this description are likely to produce the result which my hon. Friend and myself equally desire.

  ITALIAN ADMINISTRATION (DINO PHILIPSON)
  Mr. Ivor Thomasasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will ask for the removal of Dino Philipson from any position of influence in or over the Italian Government at Bari, in view of his anti-British attitude and his introduction of Fillippo Naldi into the Press Bureau.
  Mr. Eden: Inquiries are being made about Dino Philipson, and until they are completed I have no statement to make about him.
  Mr. de Rothschild: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that from the beginning of the Mussolini era, Dino Philipson was a strong opponent of Fascism, and that he spent many years in prison?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir, I have had some information to that effect, but I thought I ought to check up on all the information.
  Mr. Ivor Thomas: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Dino Philipson took part in the March on Rome, and that he has been a most frivolous character ever since, changing his opinions according to the circumstances?
  Mr. Eden: There seems to be a clash of opinions on this matter. What I heard was that he was at one time a Liberal member of Parliament, which is, in all respects, a most respectable occupation.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Aerodromes (Civilian Workers)
    Mr. Purbrickasked the Secretary of State for Air in view of the fact that the ordinary wage of civilian workers at aerodromes is, in many instances, as high as that of a bomber captain in operations and higher than that of pilots, gunners and those of lower rank, who are constantly risking their lives fighting, he will take steps to remedy this disparity.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): I would refer ray hon. Friend to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister to the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. J. Brown) on 20th January.
    Mr. Purbrick: In view of the fact that that answer was given to a supplementary, that the Question referred only to the difference in the rates of pay of the British Forces and the American and Colonial troops, and that it is as long ago as 6th May that any definite answer was given on this point, would my right hon. Friend not give further consideration to the matter, in view of the small amount of money that would be involved?

    Pay and Allowances
    Commander Galbraithasked the Secretary of State for Air the total amount of pay and allowances receivable by an officer of squadron-leader's rank while serving at the Air Ministry.
    Sir A. Sinclair: The pay of a squadron-leader serving in the Air Ministry depends on many factors, such as the branch of the Royal Air Force to which he belongs and the length of service in his rank, but is not less than £529 a year, together with an additional allowance for staff posts of £90 a year, and the usual Service allowances.
    Commander Galbraith: Is there consultation with other Service Departments in fixing these amounts, to ensure uniformity?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Yes, Sir. These allowances have been fixed only as the result of the findings of Cabinet Committees which have been established since the last war.

    Central Mediterranean Force (Uniforms)
    Rear-Admiral Beamishasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware of the difficulties confronting officers of the R.A.F. in the Central Mediterranean Force in purchasing articles of uniform, clothing and footwear, which do not confront military officers; and will he therefore co-operate with the Secretary of State for War in providing the necessary facilities for the R.A.F. officers, through the Army organisation.
    Sir A. Sinclair: Yes, Sir. I am informed that there has been a shortage in the supply of uniforms for Royal Air Force officers serving in the base areas. Action has been taken and adequate supplies should be available at an early date.

  JET-PROPELLED AIRCRAFT (WHITTLE INVENTION)
  Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Aircraft Production (1) how many existing firms, or their representatives, were approached by Group Captain Whittle, or by the Air Ministry on his behalf, with a view to securing their participation or co-operation in the experimental development of the jet-propelled airplane; in how many cases were such approaches unsuccessful; and in hew many were the conditions proposed unacceptable;
  (2) the nature of the advice given to Group-Captain Whittle as to the procedure he should follow with a view to securing

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  the development of the jet-propelled airplane; and at what date he was advised to approach aircraft companies;
  (3) whether, in the case of inventions, such as that of Group-Captain Whittle, the policy of his Department is to regard the reactions of firms interested in analogous developments as the best indication of the potentialities of an invention or an idea.
  The Minister of Aircraft Production (Sir Stafford Cripps): Group Captain Whittle was permitted to dispose of his invention subject to certain conditions, which included obtaining the consent of the Secretary of State for Air to any disposal of his rights and free Crown user if required. The Secretary of State was not asked by Group Captain Whittle for consent to any disposal of his rights until Power Jets, Limited, was formed in January, 1936. Group Captain Whittle received no advice to approach particular aircraft companies, but consent was given to his application to form Power Jets, Limited. Further, facilities were accorded him for the development of his invention by extending his stay at Cambridge University for a year, till June, 1937, in order to permit him to continue his work on the invention, and later by relieving him of his normal Air Force duties, in order that he might concentrate on this work, which he has done from that time onwards. The potentialities of inventions are assessed by technical officers of the Department, with the advice of independent experts if necessary. In the case of the Whittle invention, a recommendation to explore the possibilities of encouraging the development of Whittle jet propulsion systems was received from the Aeronautical Research Committee in May, 1937.
  Mr. Austin Hopkinson: While recognising the admirable work done by Group Captain Whittle, is it not a fact that as soon as this invention promised to be a success, ample facilities were provided for him?
  Sir S. Cripps: That would depend on what the hon. Member considers ample.

  SHIPS' TONNAGE (MEASURE MENT)
  Sir Robert Rankinasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of
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  War Transport whether, in view of the widely-held opinion that existing rules for the measurement of ships' tonnage should be altered and a new and simple rule evolved, he will consider the setting up of a committee to draft proposals for international agreement.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker): As my hon. Friend is, no doubt, aware, the rules for the measurement of shipping tonnage have recently been the subject of discussion by experts in the shipping Press. In this discussion, a wide divergence of opinion has appeared. It is plain, therefore, that any change in the present rules would necessitate elaborate inquiries by both shipowners and shipbuilders, as well as an international agreement with other maritime nations. For these reasons, as I think my hon. Friend will agree, it would not be opportune to undertake so long and difficult a task at the present time. I have, however, given instructions that his proposal shall be considered as soon as opportunity permits.

  RAILWAYS

    Passenger Service, London-Doncaster
    Mr. Quibellasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport what steps he proposes to take to improve the passenger train service to and from Doncaster and King's Cross.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: As my hon. Friend is aware, the passenger traffic on the railways has greatly increased since the war began, but it has been necessary to reduce the passenger train mileage by 30 per cent., in order to carry traffic which is essential to the war effort. As a result, trains in many parts of the country are often crowded. I have, unhappily, no reason to believe that the conditions between Doncaster and King's Cross are exceptional, and I regret that it is not at present possible to increase the number of trains.
    Mr. Riley: Is it possible to do anything to minimise the long delays that take place on this line?
    Mr. Noel Baker: Nobody regrets the delays more than we do; it means a great strain on all concerned; but with sickness, fog, shortness of staff and the immensely heavy traffic, I can only say that the railways are doing their best.
    Mr. Quibell: Is my hon. Friend aware that a train for Doncaster left King's Cross 2½ hours late?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I am afraid there is a good deal of late running. The Government are putting every possible measure into effect.

    Accident, Ilford
    Mr. Hutchinsonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he can make any statement with regard to the railway accident, accompanied by loss of life, which took place at Ilford on Sunday, 16th January.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: This tragic accident occurred after dark during a dense fog, when one passenger train overtook and collided with another travelling in the same direction. I regret to say that nine passengers were fatally injured, including three members of the United States Forces, and twenty-eight other passengers were detained in hospital. Prompt assistance was rendered by rescue parties of the local Civil Defence Services, and I want to say how greatly we appreciate what they did. The chief inspecting officer of railways has held his inquiry, but until his report has been received, I am unable to say anything about the cause or causes of the accident. I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my deep sympathy with the relatives of those who lost their lives, and with those who were injured.
    Mr. Hutchinson: Will my hon. Friend be able to make a further statement when the Ministry of Transport's inquiry has been completed?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir, if my hon. and learned Friend will put down another Question, I will certainly give him an answer.

  ROAD HAULAGE (CONTROLLED UNDERTAKINGS)
  Mr. McKinlayasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport what qualification must be fulfilled before a road haulage firm can become a controlled undertaking under the Road Haulage Organisation.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: The Road Haulage Organisation requires the vehicles to carry, and the office and accounting staff to organise, the long-distance traffic which
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  my Noble Friend has taken under his control. My Noble Friend has, therefore, selected for control undertakings which can provide the vehicles and the office staff at the places where he needs them.
  Mr. McKinlay: Is it not a fact that the controlled undertakings have just as much power over the hiring companies, who are not masters of their own households and have to comply with their instructions?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir. But the controlled undertakings have to comply with our instructions.
  Mr. McKinlayasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport the number of road haulage firms in Scotland which are controlled undertakings; the number of vehicles operated by each firm at the commencement of the scheme and the number being operated by such firms on the last available date; and the number of hired firms acquired by controlled undertakings during the same period.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: There are 53 controlled haulage undertakings, the head offices of which are in Scotland. When these undertakings came under control, they operated a total of 1,916 vehicles. They now operate 1,953 vehicles. Three undertakings which had vehicles on hire to the Ministry have been acquired by a controlled undertaking since the control began. If my hon. Friend so desires, I will send him particulars of the vehicles operated by each individual undertaking.
  Mr. McKinlay: That is the information I want, and which I asked for in the Question. Is there any reason why we should not get an answer?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: No, Sir, but it would involve a great number of statistics and figures, and I should have to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I will do that if the hon. Member wishes.
  Mr. McKinlay: In giving that information, will my hon. Friend give the circumstances concerning the acquisition of hiring firms by controlled undertakings? And is it not a fact that the hiring people are being pushed out of business and getting nothing for it at all?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: As a general proposition that is certainly not true, but I will gladly look into any cases that my hon. Friend cares to send me.

  FORTH BRIDGE PROJECTS.
  Mr. Mathersasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether his departmental engineers will consider, in conjunction with the local authorities and others concerned, the relative merits of the projected bridges over the Forth at the Mackintosh Rock and Inchgarvie sites, respectively, taking into account navigational and other problems, and thereafter come to a decision regarding this link in the Scottish trunk-road system.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir, I will gladly consider the merits of any schemes which may be laid before my Department by the responsible authorities.
  Mr. Mathers: Is it not possible for the Minister to take the initiative in seeking to obtain the information and to make the necessary surveys?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I believe that some of the local authorities now have inquiries going on and that they would not regard it very favourably if we tried to take them out of their hands.
  Mr. Mathers: If the local authorities ask the Minister to come in, will he do so?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I will consider it when the request is received.

  ROMAN ROAD, PIERCEBRIDGE- JEDBURGH (RECONSTRUCTION)
  Colonel Greenwellasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport, if, in connection with the Government's plans for post-war main road development, he will consider reconstructing the Roman road from Piercebridge through Corbridge to Jed-burgh as a means of shortening greatly the distance from London to Edinburgh by road and of avoiding the congested industrial area of the North-east.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir. I will certainly bear in mind the proposal made by my hon. and gallant Friend.
  Colonel Greenwell: Does my hon. Friend appreciate that this does not involve the building of an entirely new road, but merely the adaptation of roads which at present exist but which are not suitable for carrying large volumes of heavy traffic?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir, and I can tell my hon. and gallant Friend that we have actually already considered this route in connection with the extension of new trunk roads.

  MINISTRY OF INFORMATION

    Bombing Policy (Publicity)
    Mr. Purbrickasked the Minister of Information, whether, in view of the fact that our losses in bombing Germany's war industries are microscopic in comparison with the amount of damage they do; that the loss of life is small compared with that of land army campaigns and with those which would result from an invasion of Western Europe, he will intensify the publicity of these facts to the public here and in America.
    The Minister of Information (Mr. Brendan Bracken): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his assistance in disseminating this valuable doctrine.

    British Civil Administration, Italian East Africa (Booklet)
    Mr. Astorasked the Minister of Information when he intends to publish the booklet on British Civil Administration in Italian East Africa?
    Mr. Bracken: We hope to publish this booklet in the early summer.
    Mr. Astor: In view of the fact that on 29th July the Parliamentary Secretary said that it would be published without any avoidable delay and as quickly as possible, will the right hon. Gentleman produce a glossary of the meaning of words used by his Ministry?
    Mr. Bracken: I would also like to make a glossary of the sentence just expressed by the hon. Gentleman, but all I can tell him is that, if he could realise the shortage of printers and the lack of means of production in London, he would understand that it is not possible, unless the Government alter their policy about labour, to produce pamphlets as quickly as he expects.
    Mr. Astor: If the expression "as quickly as possible" means the delay of a year, would it not be more honest towards the House if the right hon. Gentleman would say so frankly at the time and not raise false expectations?
    Mr. Bracken: I do not know what my hon. Friend means by criticising my colleague the Parliamentary Secretary as saying that he would produce it "as quickly as possible." That is the situation. Some of these books take not a year but a year and a half to produce. When the hon. Member understands the printing conditions here in London, he will realise that everything possible is done to speed up publication.
    Viscountess Astor: If that is the situation, how was it that we have been getting hundreds upon hundreds of pamphlets about the Education Bill?
    Mr. Bracken: I am not responsible for the issuing of those pamphlets, but I am surprised that the Noble Lady should object to pamphlets on the Education Bill.
    Viscountess Astor: The Noble Lady objects to procrastination on the part of the Government.

    Broadcasts (Irish Language)
    Lord Fermoyasked the Minister of Information whether the B.B.C. under-takes any broadcasts to Ireland in the Irish language.
    Mr. Bracken: No, Sir.
    Lord Fermoy: Is the Minister aware that broadcasts are made to Ireland from Germany in the Irish language?
    Mr. Bracken: I am well aware that broadcasts in Irish are made from Germany to Ireland, but I think that Dr. Goebbels does not realise that the majority of the people of Ireland understand English.

    Pamphlet
    Mr. Manderasked the Minister of Information if he will arrange to make available to Members copies of the new edition of the pamphlet, "What Britain has done."
    Mr. Bracken: Yes, Sir; I have arranged for this pamphlet to be available to hon. Members at the Vote Office.

  MAILS, SOUTH AFRICA
  Mr. Hewlettasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that letters from South Africa take two to three months to reach this country; and whether he will take steps to accelerate transport.
  The Postmaster-General (Captain Crookshank): I am aware that letters from South Africa sometimes take over two months in transmission but the average time recently has been 45 days. The South African Post Office which is responsible for the homeward service takes advantage of every suitable opportunity for despatching the mails.
  Sir Alfred Beit: Can my right hon. and gallant Friend say what is the delay in the air-mail from South Africa?
  Captain Crookshank: This refers to ordinary letters and not air-mail.

  HOUSING

    Construction Methods
    Mr. W. J. Brownasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works whether he will give an assurance that every encouragement will be given to firms and industries developing new methods of house construction, such as prefabrication of houses, with a view to speedy mass production when the war ends.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Hicks): Yes, Sir. A Controller of Experimental Building was appointed last summer with the special duty of assisting private enterprise and local authorities to develop new methods, materials and fittings for house construction by advice and by arranging for the issue of licences and other facilities where the proposal appeared likely to be of value. The Controller works in close contact with the Burt Committee which, as I informed by hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McKinlay) on 26th January, had already considered 249 suggestions and had recommended that facilities be granted in 36 cases.
    Major Petherick: Will the hon. Gentleman say whether full advantage is being taken of the experience in prefabrication of houses in the United States of America, particularly in the State of California?
    Mr. Hicks: As my hon. and gallant Friend is aware, my noble Friend sent a deputation to America to inquire into the methods of building in America and that report will be available at the end of the week.
    Mr. Mathers: Will the co-operation of the building trades be assured in connection with the prefabrication of buildings?
    Mr. Hicks: I do not quite understand my hon. Friend's question.

    Nottingham
    Major Markhamasked the Minister of Health whether he has now considered the housing position in Nottingham; and whether he has a statement to make.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Horsbrugh): Yes, Sir. My right hon. and learned Friend is aware of the serious housing shortage in Nottingham, which, I am afraid, can be equalled in many other areas. Owing to the overriding demand for labour and materials for war purposes, we are not yet in a position to start any general programme of house construction, but the Government are considering whether it may be possible before long to initiate preparatory work, so as to expedite building when the time comes.

  ROYAL NAVY

    Pay and Allowances
    Commander Galbraithasked the First Lord of the Admiralty the total pay and allowances receivable by an officer of lieutenant-commander's rank while serving at the Admiralty.
    The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. A. V. Alexander): I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for East Fulham (Mr. Astor) on 17th December last.

    Officers (Promotion)
    Captain Cobbasked the First Lord of the Admiralty (1) whether flying time counts as sea-time for purposes of promotion for naval officers;
    (2) whether war-time executive staff appointments count as sea-time for purposes of promotion for naval officers.
    Mr. Alexander: All service in a ship of war at sea as defined in King's Regulations and Admiralty Instructions, including employment on flying duties, counts as sea-time for the purposes of promotion of Executive Officers. In the case of Executive Officers who, owing to essential war requirements, are retained for prolonged periods in shore appointments,
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    the Board of Admiralty has given an undertaking that such service will not adversely affect their chances of promotion to Commander or Captain provided that they have the minimum periods of sea-time laid down in King's Regulations and Admiralty Instructions.

    Hospital Ships (Enemy Attacks)
    Sir John Mellorasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of unlawful enemy attacks upon illuminated hospital ships, illumination will be discontinued.
    Mr. Alexander: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Granville).
    Sir J. Mellor: Will the right hon. Gentleman publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT references to the relevant International Conventions referred to in that answer?
    Mr. Alexander: It is rather long, but I will consider that.

    Malta (Dockyard Staff)
    Mr. W. J. Brownasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is prepared to extend to the locally-entered staffs employed in His Majesty's dockyard at Malta a uniform amount of war bonus regardless of the amount of basic pay up to £850 per annum, as has been agreed on the National Whitley Council for British civil servants.
    Mr. Alexander: The scheme of war bonus applicable to the locally-entered staff in H.M. Dockyard, Malta, is that in force for the corresponding staffs of the Malta Government and of the other Service Departments. This scheme represents the results of exhaustive examination given to the subject as recently as last autumn and based upon local conditions in Malta.
    Mr. Brown: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a great deal of indignation in Malta both about the amount of war bonus and about the way it operates, and ought not his Department, as the biggest employer on the Island, to set an example?
    Mr. Alexander: I am aware of the extent of employment given by the Admiralty in Malta but it is obvious that these local persons must be considered,

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    through the Colonial Office, in relation to all the conditions of employment in the Island.

    McLeod Steam Turbine Unit
    Commander Galbraithasked the First Lord of the Admiralty what steps have been taken to try out, under seagoing conditions, the McLeod steam turbine unit, which successfully passed its bench trials in May, 1939.
    Mr. Alexander: The possible utilisation of this type of engine has been considered on a number of occasions. Owing to certain features of the design, it has not, however, been considered desirable to fit an experimental engine into a sea-going ship, in view of the risks which would be involved in the event of a failure under existing conditions at sea. No application has been made by any private ship owner for such an engine to be fitted, either in new construction or in an existing vessel whose engine requires repair or replacement.
    Commander Galbraith: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, since then, the invention has been received very favourably by eminent professional men and marine engineers and also by technical officers of Government Departments; and would he not consider the advisability of trying it out at an early opportunity?
    Mr. Alexander: I have had a great deal of advice from people in the profession and industry about this matter, but it is almost impossible to deal with the subject by Question and answer. If the hon. and gallant Member is particularly interested, I should be glad to discuss it with him or refer him to the naval authorities concerned.
    Mr. McKinlay: Is it not a fact that a ship was made available, but it foundered before reaching port and there has not been any offer since then?
    Mr. Alexander: I would like to have notice of that Question. I have no recollection of it.

  PALESTINE (LAND TRANSFER)
  Mr. Astorasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Palestine Government have investigated the petition of Ramadan Mohammad Al Alami regarding the alleged transfer of land at Hamama, near Gaza, in violation
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  of the Land Regulations; and what decision has been reached.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Dominion-Affairs (Mr. Enuys-Evans): I have been asked to reply. My right hon. and gallant Friend has not received any information concerning this petition from the High Commissioner, but he is asking for a report.

  WEST INDIES CONFERENCE (PROCEDURE)
  Mr. Rileyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the West Indian conferences which are now being arranged by the Anglo-American Caribbean Commission will be held in public; and whether after each conference a public report will be issued.
  Mr. Emrys-Eyans: The Conference will be left to settle its own procedure, but my right hon. and gallant Friend understands that the present intention is to invite it to agree that it should start with a general meeting, open to the Press, for discussion of the whole of its agenda, and that, after recommendations have been prepared by sub-committees, normally in private sessions, on items requiring detailed studies, the reports of those bodies should be considered at another public meeting. Subject to the agreement of the Conference, its report would be published.
  Mr. Riley: May I ask the Minister whether, in view of the importance of these conferences, and in view of the fact that both the British Government and the United States Government, through the Commission, have declared that these conferences must envisage a democratic approach to the problems, it is provided that they should be public conferences and report publicly?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: I said in my answer that they will be public. A very full reply in regard to the whole position was given to the hon. Member for Moseley (Sir P. Hannon).

  UGANDA

    Sugar Supplies
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware of public complaints that retailers of sugar in Uganda have refused to supply this

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    foodstuff to Africans although it was in stock; what legal action has been taken, to avoid such discrimination; and whether sugar is still in short supply.
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: My right hon. and gallant Friend has received no report that sugar has been refused to Africans in Uganda, but he is making inquiries in the matter and will communicate with the hon. Member in due course. With regard to the last part of the Question, sugar is in short supply in East Africa, owing to the greatly increased local demand, the needs of neighbouring territories and a reduction of production last year owing to mechanical breakdowns at certain factories in Uganda.
    Mr. Sorensen: What steps are being taken to see that a larger quantity of sugar is being produced to provide for local needs?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: There is no evidence, so far as I know, that there is any unfair discrimination, but, of course, this is being watched by the Government at the present time.

    Migrant Labour
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what action is being taken to provide accommodation for African labourers working on the main road from Uganda to the Belgian Congo; and whether he is satisfied that adequate provision is being made for their welfare.
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: So far as my information goes, there is at present no constructional work in progress on the main road between Uganda and the Belgian Congo, but I presume that the hon. Member is referring to the movement of migrant labour between these two territories. The Governor of Uganda has recently forwarded comprehensive proposals to provide for the welfare of such labour and work has already started on a two-year programme for the construction of rest camps, hospitals and first aid posts, from the Congo Border to Kampala. Food will be supplied when necessary free-of-charge to labourers moving along this route in search of work.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the Minister aware that until recently, apparently, quite a number of these labourers were unable to find accommodation, and is that disability now overcome?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: I think the hon. Member will see from my reply that every effort is being made to overcome that difficulty.

  WEST AFRICA (RENTS, ACCRA AND KUMASI)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is satisfied that the Rent Assessment Committee in Accra is effectively preventing the charging of excessive rents; how many complaints have been made over 12 months and in how many of these was action taken; to what extent rents have risen in Accra and Kumasi; and whether the committee will investigate complaints without public disclosure of the identity of the informant.
  Mr. Erarys-Evans: The Acting Governor is being asked for information about the working of the Accra Rent Assessment Committee and also about the other points raised in the hon. Member's Question. My right hon. and gallant Friend will communicate with him further when the necessary information is received.

  MALTA (GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES)
  Mr. W. J. Brownasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will publish the Report of the Admiralty official recently sent to Malta to investigate the cause of discontent among staffs in His Majesty's dockyard there; and what action he proposes to take on the matter dealt with in that document.
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: This investigation was not confined to the staffs of His Majesty's dockyard in Malta. The investigating officer was sent to inquire into and advise upon the situation resulting from the dispute last year between the Government of Malta and the Service Departments and certain of their employees in Malta, and upon the establishment of standing machinery for consultation between these employing authorities and their employees on matters of common interest. His report, which was made to the Governor of Malta, will be published in the Colony. A proposal made in it for an increase in the war bonus payable to certain grades of

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  employees has already been approved. Other recommendations are under consideration.
  Mr. Brown: Will a copy of that report be placed in the Library or made available to us?
  Mr. Emrys-Evans: The Government of Malta, I understand, are being asked to send a copy to the Crown Agents and it will be available.

  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING (BRIDLE PATHS)
  Lady Apsleyasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning whether he is yet in a position to state what action he proposes to take to implement the proposals in the Scott Committee's Report, that provision should be made for including bridle paths in planning maps; that wherever possible such paths should be put on the field side of hedges rather than on the road side; and that the marking, supervision and upkeep of bridle paths should be a statutory obligation on the part of the local authorities.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Town and Country Planning (Mr. Henry Strauss): These recommendations are under consideration, but I cannot at present add to the statement which my right hon. Friend made on 30th November, 1943, in answer to the hon. and gallant Member for Penryn and Falmouth (Major Petherick), of which I am sending the Noble Lady a copy.
  Mr. Edmund Harvey: Is the Minister taking any steps to get local authorities to mark bridle paths and footpaths in accordance with the recommendations of the Committee?
  Lady Apsley: Will the Minister bear in mind the large number of paths which have had to be closed because of operations?
  Mr. Strauss: Attention has been given to these matters, which are important. I am afraid I cannot add to the detailed statement to which I referred in my original answer, but perhaps hon. Members will look at what is said at the beginning of paragraph 12.
  Mr. Sorensen: Is the Minister not aware that some county councils and local authorities have been trying very carefully to preserve all bridle paths in their area, and cannot the same procedure be adopted by all local authorities?
  Mr. Strauss: I cannot answer detailed Questions without notice, but I agree that a great deal of work of that kind has been done by many local authorities.
  Mr. Sorensen: Could not the Minister recommend the same principle to all local authorities?

  CLOTHING COUPONS (EXPECTANT MOTHERS)
  Lord Fermoyasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider increasing the number of supplementary coupons allowed for expectant mothers from 60 to some higher number in the case of a first baby, in view of the considerably greater strain on resources in the case of a first baby than is experienced with additional children.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Captain Waterhouse): I am glad to say that the coupon rate for babies' napkins has recently been reduced from 12 to 9 per dozen. This should be of great help to mothers with their First baby.

  EIRE (BRITISH COMMONWEALTH OF NATIONS)
  Mr. Shinwellasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the trend of a section of Irish opinion that Eire should become a permanent member of the British Commonwealth of Nations, recently given expression to by General Mulcahy, he will consider entering into consultation with the Eire Government on post-war economic policy of mutual interest.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): My hon. Friend will note that the speech to which his Question refers was made, not by a member of the Government of Southern Ireland, but by one of the Opposition leaders. I am not aware of any alteration in the standpoint of the Southern Irish Government. So long as the attitude of that Government remains what it is as regards the war, our relations

  1267
  tions with them in all matters must take account of that dominating fact.
  Mr. Shinwell: While fully appreciating the substance of the right hon. Gentleman's point, in view of this recent trend on the part of those in opposition and among a fairly large section of opinion in Eire, would it not be desirable in some way to encourage it, and will the right hon. Gentleman take note that the suggestion of concentration on post-war economic policy was only made in order to find a line of approach?
  The Prime Minister: The situation there is well-known to the House, and I should hesitate to make a statement about it, because of the many elements of gravity which it possesses, without having an opportunity of considering my words very carefully.

  TANK PRODUCTION CAPACITY
  Mr. Hammersleyasked the Minister of Production what steps he is taking to transfer surplus tank production capacity to the manufacture of essential textile machinery.
  The Minister of Production (Mr. Lyttelton): Complete arrangements have been in operation for some time for transferring any capacity which has been surplus to current requirements on to other products, with first preference for those which are necessary for the prosecution of the war.
  Mr. Hammersley: Is the House to understand that my right hon. Friend does not approve of the use of much-needed materials and man-power, to convert unnecessary and useless tanks into equally useless towing vehicles?
  Mr. Lyttelton: That is a different question.

  IRON ORE DEPOSITS (SURVEY)
  Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Production if there are iron ore deposits within the vicinity of Millom and Asham; are there any under the River Duddom; has a recent survey been made of the country; and if he is taking notes of the deposits that the war needs demand.
  Mr. Lyttelton: A survey of this area was made by His Majesty's Geological Survey
  1268
  in 1937–38, a summary of which was published in 1941. Certain of the deposits in the area have been sampled during the war by the home ores department of the Iron and Steel Control and the Geological Survey, as part of the intensive search made in this country for iron ore to meet our war-time needs. The available evidence shows that the working of any known deposits, at present unworked, would not justify the time and labour involved.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Prosecutions (Local Authorities' Powers)
    Major Sir Jocelyn Lucasasked the Minister of Food if he is aware that his Department will not allow proceedings to be taken by local authorities under Section 6 of the Food and Drugs Act without his permission; and whether he will now amend this decision.
    The Minister of Food (Colonel Llewellin): Section 6 of the Food and Drugs Act, 1938, has been suspended so far as it relates to food as from 1st January, 1944, by Regulation 1 of the Defence (Sale of Food) Regulations, 1943. So far as proceedings under the new Regulations are concerned, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Foster) on 10th January.
    Sir J. Lucas: As, unfortunately, I do not know that answer may I ask my right hon. and gallant Friend if he would allow some latitude to local authorities?
    Colonel Llewellin: The point, I gather, is that before this Order is enforced the consent of my Ministry has to be obtained. That is necessary. These are prosecutions in regard to general labels and it would be unfair if traders who used them were prosecuted successively in different areas for the same offence.

    Bacon (Canadian Supplies)
    Mr. Thorneasked the Minister of Food if he can give any information in connection with the 20,000,000 lbs. of bacon that is being sent to this country by the Canadian Meat Board and how it will be distributed.
    Colonel Llewellin: I am much indebted to the Canadian Government and to producers in that country for all they are doing to maintain our bacon supplies.

    1269
    As such supplies become available in this country they will be distributed in the normal way.
    Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Although that figure appears to be enormous, is it not a fact that it will not necessarily mean any likelihood of an increased bacon ration for domestic consumers during the next three or four months?
    Colonel Llewellin: No, it will not. This is the time of production of the biggest part of our supplies of bacon, and this figure, although it looks large, will not do anything more to help us and I hope it will do that—to maintain our present ations.
    Mr. Thorne: But it will be in readiness when the war is over.
    Colonel Llewellin: I think we shall have eaten it before then.

    Oranges, Allocation (Eire)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Minister of Food how many of the oranges lately imported from Spain have been or are about to be forwarded to Eire; and why they were not released for hospitals or for domestic consumption in this country.
    Captain Ganunansasked the Minister of Food why approximately 10,000 cases of oranges, which are being brought from Spain in British ships, are being allocated to jam manufacturers in Eire; and if the necessary arrangements could be made for their use in this country.
    Mr. Molsonasked the Minister of Food why Seville oranges imported from Spain have been made available to Southern Eire; whether the benefit of specially low freights was passed on to the Irish purchasers; and whether any steps have been taken to ensure that the marmalade they manufacture will be re-exported to this country for the benefit of the British consumer.
    Sir William Davisonasked the Minister of Food why approximately 5,000,000 oranges which could not be used by British marmalade manufacturers were supplied to Eire jam manufacturers; why a portion of this consignment was not made available to British housewives for making marmalade with their surplus sugar; whether the oranges supplied to Eire were brought from Spain to this country in British ships at special
    1270
    rates and are also being conveyed to Eire in British ships; and what payment is being received from Eire in respect of fruit and shipping respectively.
    Colonel Llewellin: No oranges now being imported from Spain have been or are going to be sent to Eire. The other parts of the Questions do not, therefore, arise.
    Mr. Driberg: Could the right hon. and gallant Gentleman say whether the decision to send these oranges to Eire was in fact taken in his Department and later countermanded as a result of Press publicity and the putting of Questions on the Order Paper?
    Colonel Llewellin: No, it was not that way at all. There was an idea in my Department that that might be a good thing to do—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—but before it was published in the newspapers at all, it came to my notice and I thought differently.
    Viscountess Astor: Could the man who had that idea be reprimanded?
    Earl Winterton: May I ask whether my right hon. and gallant Friend will have regard to the rule that what goes on in a Department is not a matter about which a Minister can reply at Question Time? May I have an answer?
    Colonel Llewellin: If I went beyond the bounds, I apologise to the House.
    Sir W. Davison: How came it that such a very important matter as this was suggested, at a time when the whole feeling of the House and people in the country is very strong, and that it required my right hon. and gallant Friend's veto to stop it? Will the Minister answer that question?
    Colonel Llewellin: I am, of course, fully responsible for what happens in my Department. I would have taken the responsibility if, afterwards, I had altered it the other way, and it had been done. I was explaining to the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) how this actually occurred and I think we had better leave it there. I think the Departmental decision is now the right one.
    Several Hon. Members——
    Mr. Speaker: I think these oranges are too explosive.

    Colonial Sugar (Government Purchase)
    Mr. Thorneasked the Minister of Food whether he can give information in connection with the announcement that he is to buy all the Colonial export of sugar up to the end of 1946; and can he say how it is to be distributed.
    Colonel Llewellin: In reply to the first part of the Question I have nothing to add to the statement made on 26th January by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies. In reply to the second part, the purchases mentioned will represent only a small part of the United Nations' requirements, and so long as the present international and national distribution arrangements continue these supplies will be distributed through that machinery.

    Butter (Dominion Supplies)
    Mr. Thorneasked the Minister of Food whether he can give any information in connection with the 7,000,000 tons of butter sent to this country from the Dominions and how it is being distributed.
    Colonel Llewellin: I am afraid that the amount is 7,000,000 pounds not 7,000,000 tons. Had it been the latter, I could have discontinued the rationing of butter; as it is, it will be distributed in the normal way to meet the domestic ration.
    Mr. Thorne: The newspapers are responsible for the figures. I must apologise for being wrong.
    Colonel Llewellin: The error did not start with my hon. Friend; it was an error in some of the newspapers.

    Restriction on Dealings (Regulation)
    Mr. Pickthornasked the Minister of Food under what statutory authority he has included in the Emergency Powers (Defence) Food (Restriction on Dealings) Regulation (S.R. & O., No. 1769, of 1943) paragraph 4, subjecting the provisions of the Order to any directions given by him; and if he will give an undertaking that any such directions shall be published and presented to Parliament.
    Colonel Llewellin: The authority is Regulation 55; the directions may be either general in which case they are printed and published as statutory rules and orders or they may, in rare cases, be individual, in which case they are served on the individual concerned.
    Mr. Pickthorn: Is it not a fact that paragraph 4 is putting the whole of this great nation under emergency administrative authorisation, without any possibility of Parliamentary attention?
    Colonel Llewellin: No, Sir. In practice, any general direction given under it is issued in exactly the same way as the Order itself was issued. It is laid on the Table and treated as a Statutory Rule and Order.

    Wine (Imports)
    Commander Sir Archibald Southbyasked the Minister of Food what quantities of port and sherry have been imported into Great Britain from Portugal and Spain, respectively, during the last 12 months; and what proportion of these imports were for distribution to British citizens and what proportion to members of the United States Forces.
    Colonel Llewellin: It is not in the public interest to publish details of importations during war. In reply to the last part of the Question the answer is that 70 per cent. went to British citizens.
    Viscountess Astor: Would it not be more conducive to the health and happiness of both British and United States troops if we imported oranges and lemons instead of port and sherry?
    Colonel Llewellin: We are importing both.
    Sir A. Southby: Will my right hon. and gallant Friend bear in mind the excellent addition to our war-time diet which these products provide?
    Mr. E. Walkden: As the wines and spirits are purchased on Ministry of Food account, can the Minister give us any undertaking that there will be any control to see that consumers do receive these wines and spirits at fair prices?

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY

    Director-General of Supply Services (Speech)
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Supply if he sanctioned Major-General Gilbert Szlumper, his Director-General of Supply Services, addressing the Engineering Industries Association on Tuesday, 25th January.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. Sandys): No, Sir.
    Mr. Smith: Can we be informed what action has been taken by the Minister in view of the fact that this man took part in political controversy? Is it the practice of civil servants to indulge in political controversy and, if so, what happens?
    Mr. Sandys: I agree that the speech in question did touch upon certain matters of a highly controversial nature and that it was the kind of speech which should not have been made by a civil servant. However, I think hon. Members will appreciate that temporary war-time Government officials, who previously have held responsible and prominent positions in business and public life, are liable on occasions to forget that as civil servants they are now expected to hide their light under a bushel. I have spoken to this official and he fully appreciates the position. He is rendering valuable service to the Ministry, and I propose to leave the matter there.
    Mr. Smith: Had this man been a Socialist or a working man, some other action would have been taken, and in view of the fact that action is regularly taken against our people who are responsible for indiscretion, what action does the Minister contemplate taking against this well-placed man?
    Mr. Sandys: I have explained to the hon. Member that I have made the position clear to this official, who fully recognises that he has infringed the regulations, and I think that this question and answer will have the effect of bringing this matter to the notice of other officials similarly placed. It is a difficult position for these people who have only just come into the Government service.
    Sir A. Southby: Does my right hon. Friend not agree that this gentleman is and always has been one of the hardest working individuals in the country?
    Mr. Smith: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this civil servant stated at the meeting that he had great experience in Government Departments; that he prided himself on having served in at least six of them, and used that experience for political purposes?
    Mr. Sandys: If so, he must have served in each of them for a very short time.

    Esparto Grass (Importation)
    Major-General Sir Alfred Knoxasked the Minister of Supply whether, if it is impossible at once to resume the import of esparto grass, he will help in the preliminary reorganisation necessary to that import such as arrangements for leases from the French for the collection of the grass, the re-establishment of transport and the restoration of facilities at the ports which will require months to reorganise.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. Peat): Inquiries are being made in North Africa on the arrangements necessary for a resumption of the importation of esparto grass when the shipping position renders this possible.

    Labour Supply (Small Firms)
    Sir George Schusterasked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware that a firm, of which he has been informed, is being forced to close down by the withdrawal of its labour; whether, in the interests of war production, he will see that this case is reconsidered with due regard to the facts that the firm's total staff amounts to nine men and two women; that they are specialists in the design of a particular type of equipment which requires to be adapted to the needs of each particular case; that the products of this firm, although small in volume, represent a matter of key importance; and that it is desirable to preserve specialist undertakings of this kind as an important factor in British industry.
    Mr. Sandys: The decision to discontinue the issue of licences for materials for the manufacture of trailers at this firm is in accordance with the general policy of easing the load in areas where labour is scarce. However, in view of my hon. Friend's Question I am looking into the circumstances of this particular case.
    Sir G. Schuster: Will the Minister give us an assurance that he is jealously watching the interests of small firms of this kind, so characteristic of business, and that he will not allow global labour allocations to overwhelm him?
    Mr. Sandys: I am very glad to give my hon. Friend that assurance. I entirely agree with him as to the value of these small firms, and I am just as anxious as

    1275
    he is to see that they are fairly treated. I am going into this particular case and will get in touch with him afterwards.
    Mr. McGovern: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a large number of these small firms are being closed down and the available labour is being transferred to larger firms?
    Mr. Sandys: That is just the point in question.

    Penicillin
    Mr. Robertsonasked the Minister of Supply why his Department is obstructing the visit to the U.S.A. of Mr. Gormley, of international Chemical Company, Limited, London, whose associated companies in Canada and the U.S.A. rank as the largest manufacturers of penicillin and who are prepared to put all their knowledge and experience at the disposal of the British company so that large-scale manufacture of penicillin can be commenced at the earliest moment.
    Mr. Peat: Mr. Gormley has sought the support of the Ministry of Supply for his application for an exit permit to visit North America for the purpose of investigating penicillin production and for certain other purposes. In the absence of evidence that his visit would be likely to increase supplies of penicillin, I do not feel able to support his application. Technical experts are already visiting penicillin plants and mould culture establishments in America and the information they obtain as to processes and equipment will be made available to any manufacturers in this country who satisfy the Ministry of Supply that they are in a position to undertake the production of penicillin.
    Mr. Robertson: Is it not a fact that my hon. Friend's Department have granted a virtual monopoly of penicillin to three or four firms only, that their output is disappointing—not 1 per cent. of the demand—and, with thousands of lives in jeopardy in the near future, why should this American and Canadian offer be refused?
    Mr. Peat: We have not granted a monopoly to three firms. The production of penicillin at present is in its infancy and is at the experimental stage. Patent rights and any other developments which may occur during the war, have been
    1276
    pooled and will be made available to any manufacturer who is in a position to make penicillin.
    Sir Herbert Williams: Who are the employers of the people already sent to the United States?
    Mr. Peat: That is another question.
    Sir H. Williams: But the hon. Gentleman said that certain experts had gone and we want to know who they represent.
    Mr. Peat: I should like notice of that question.
    Mr. Craik Henderson: Is the Minister aware that the production of penicillin in the United States is far ahead of our production, and will he realise the importance of taking every possible step to increase the production in this country?
    Mr. Peat: The production of penicillin in the United States is ahead of the production in this country but it is not adequate to the demand in the United States. We are making every effort to get information from the United States for use in this country.
    Mr. A. Edwards: Does the Minister not think that in view of the great advantages offered by penicillin, every possible avenue should be explored and not a moment be lost?
    Mr. Peat: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, and the Ministry of Supply are taking that action.
    Mr. Robertson: In view of the unsatisfactory answer to this Question, I give notice that I will raise the matter again at the first opportunity.

  FOOD SUBSIDIES (COST)
  Major-General Sir Alfred Knoxasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can give a list of the different articles of food subsidised by the Government showing the present prices and what that price would be if there were no subsidy; and the total cost to the Exchequer in the year of the subsidies to each article.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Assheton): As the answer

  1277
  contains a number of figures I will, with my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Dr. Russell Thomas: Would my right hon. Friend consider extending the subsidy to a few essential household articles

  Present Price.

  Unsubsidised Price.

  Cost of Subsidy in £ million.

  s.

  d.

  s.

  d.

  Bread

  …

  …

  9 per 4 lbs.

  1

  2

  60·4

  Flour

  …

  …

  1

  23/4 per 6 lbs.

  1

  9¼

  Oatmeal

  …

  …

  31/2 per lb.

  5

  Meat (home killed)

  …

  …

  1

  13/4 per lb.

  1

  5

  23·1

  Meat (imported)

  …

  …

  83/4 per lb.

  9¼

  Potatoes

  …

  …

  63/4 per 7 lbs.

  10¼

  28·6

  Eggs

  …

  …

  2

  0 per doz. (large)

  3

  9½

  11·3

  Eggs

  …

  …

  1

  9 per doz. (small)

  3

  6½

  Sugar (domestic)

  …

  …

  4 per lb.

  5½

  10·5

  Milk

  …

  …

  9 per quart

  9½

  10·5

  Cheese

  …

  …

  1

  1 per lb.

  1

  3¼

  3·7

  Bacon

  …

  …

  1

  101/2 per lb.

  1

  11

  1·6

  149·7

  Other subsidies

  …

  …

  56·1

  Total

  …

  …

  205·8

  The item "Other Subsidies" in this list includes small subsidies on imported egg products, rice, canned fish, butter, and milk products. It also includes larger amounts for fertilizers and for animal feeding-stuffs, and an estimate of the operating loss incurred by the Ministry of War Transport in the carriage of imports of food to the United Kingdom. In addition it includes a sum of £20,000,000 which represents the subsidies needed to supply the cheap and free milk available under the National Milk Scheme and Milk in Schools Scheme, and to provide vitamins for children and nursing mothers.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Price.
Mr. G. Strauss: On behalf of my hon. Friend, I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall call attention——
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member has balloted himself, so I fear that he cannot, therefore, act for another.

EDUCATION OF NAVAL PERSONNEL
Mr. John Wilmot(for Mr. Price): I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee
which, I believe, many consider would have the effect of pegging prices of household articles generally?
Mr. Assheton: I am afraid that is quite another question.
Following is the answer:
of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall call attention to the Education of Naval Personnel, and move a Resolution.
Captain Strickland: On a point of Order. Is the method which is now being followed in accordance with the custom of the House?
Mr. Speaker: An hon. Member on behalf of another hon. Member, may give notice in his name, but it always has to be assumed that he has been asked to do so.
Captain Strickland: Will you exercise your authority, Sir, by asking whether the hon. Member has been given that permission?
Mr. Speaker: An hon. Member may act for another provided he has not balloted himself. The strict rule is, of course, that the hon. Member should have been requested to do so by the absent Member. In this case, the strict letter of the law may not have been complied with, but I think it would be against the spirit of the situation not to allow the hon. Member for Kennington (Mr. Wilmot) to give notice of Motion.

RESEARCH AND SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE
Sir Granville Gibson: I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall call attention to Research and Scientific Knowledge, and move a Resolution.
SERVICES (PAY AND ALLOWANCES)
Mr. Kendall: I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Army Estimates, I shall call attention to the inadequate Pay and Allowances of Serving Men and Women, and move a Resolution.
TANKS
Mr. Hammersley: I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Army Estimates, I shall call attention to the British tank position, and move a Resolution.
CIVIL AVIATION
Mr. Bowles: I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Air Estimates, I shall raise certain matters in connection with the future of Civil Aviation, and move a Resolution.
ROYAL AIR FORCE TRANSPORT COMMAND
Mr. Emery: I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Air Estimates, I shall call attention to the importance of the development of Transport Command of the Royal Air Force, and move a Resolution.
HOUSING AND HEALTH, SCOTLAND
Lieut.-Commander Hutchison: I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee or Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall call attention to Housing and Health in Scotland, and move a Resolution.
DISTRIBUTION
Mr. Gallacher: I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall call attention to the question of Distribution, and move a Resolution.
NAVAL RESERVES
Wing-Commander Grant-Ferris: I beg to give notice that, on going into Committee of Supply on the Navy Estimates, I shall call attention to Naval Reserves in War and Peace, and move a Resolution.
SELECTION (PROVISIONAL ORDERS) (SCOTLAND) (PANEL)
Sir CHARLES MACANDREW reported from the Committee of Selection, That they had discharged the following Member from the Parliamentary Panel of Members of this House appointed to act as Commissioners under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936; Lord William Scott, and had appointed in substitution: Lieut.-Commander Clark Hutchison.
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  ELECTORAL REFORM
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [1st February].
  "That this House welcomes the proposal of His Majesty's Government to set up a Conference on Electoral Reform and Redistribution of Seats and to invite Mr. Speaker to preside:"—[Mr. Herbert Morrison.]
  Question again proposed.
  Mr. Greenwood: I should like, in the first place, to express the satisfaction of the House at the knowledge that you, Mr. Speaker, will preside over the Conference which is to deal with this question. It will add further to your onerous duties but I am quite sure the House shares my view that you will carry out the duty with distinction and dignity, and with a desire to secure the maximum of agreement on a large number of highly controversial issues. Leading statesmen have made it clear that this is a war for democracy. Here we have an opportunity to make our Parliamentary democracy more effective than it has been in the past. Hitler's challenge was a challenge to our Parliamentary institutions. I have said before that Hitler hates the British Parliament, as being the symbol of an order of democracy, which he loathes and despises.
  We are now in a new situation. The last General Election was held in 1935; there has been no election register made up since 1938; there are millions of people in the country, who are now carrying heavy strains and stresses and burdens, who have never had an opportunity of casting a vote, and it is right that we should have this new generation of citizens especially in mind during this Debate. They have been taught that this is a fight for democracy, and they are entitled, when the opportunity arises, to be able without let or hindrance, or undue influence, to make their contribution to the future of our nation. There are provisions in our electoral law which seem to me to defeat the true ends of political democracy. I think we have long passed the time when we should retain the system of plural voting, whether it be the business vote or the university vote. Citizenship, and the rights of citizenship, are not based either on wealth or—[An HON. MEMBER:

  1289
  "Brains."] The hon. Member who interrupts has said so, not I. What I say is that citizenship is not based on either wealth, or social position, or educational advantage. Citizenship is based on a common heritage. Those who are members of the community are entitled to share in its life and in the decisions which affect its life, and it seems to me now, that there can be no justification whatever, for the continuance either of the business vote or the university vote. I do not believe that political wisdom is doubled in the case of a business man or of a university voter. We have had many illustrations in this House of people who possessed neither of these additional qualifications and yet have made a great contribution to the work and activities of Parliament. Similarly, I think the time has passed when we should not tolerate any longer double-Member constituencies. They may lead and, indeed, in the past have led, to rather questionable deals between two political parties. I am not saying that my own party has been altogether free from discussions of that kind, but double-Member constituencies do tend to lead to hack-stair arrangements which blur the edges of political principle and may result in a number of Members in the House of Commons trying to play in two camps at the same time.
  The Speaker's Conference ought to give some consideration to expenditure in Parliamentary elections, not merely to the expenditure of candidates, but to what may be a far more important and far more sinister influence, the expenditure of political parties as such and of organisations not avowedly established for political ends but using their resources during an election in order to achieve political ends. Here again we ought to tidy up a matter which may prevent the full and unfettered expression of the opinion of the people. A smaller matter, but still one which is important, is the use of vehicles during General Elections. I speak as a Member of a party which has been ill supplied with vehicles in General Elections——
  Mr. A. MacLaren: Is that why the right hon. Gentleman is against it?
  Mr. Greenwood: I am against anything which limits the possibilities of any political party. This question of the use of
  1290
  vehicles really ought to be examined. I am not against the use of vehicles. There is a case for them in the widely scattered rural areas and for the sick and crippled, but I would like to see an educated democracy which will prefer to walk rather than not vote at all. If we have to make provision of this kind, as we must, the provision that is made ought not to depend on the wealth of the candidate or of the party for which he stands. As it is to-day, in this and some other respects into which I will not enter, the dice are loaded against the free expression of the people, because wealth now—it is an undeniable fact, and it may be pleasant for the Conservative Party—plays a far bigger part than it ought to do in political warfare.
  What is the basis of politics in this country? Broadly speaking, there are two types of mind—the adventurous and the cautious. I will put this as objectively as I can. [Interruption.] It is extremely difficult, but I have been under suppression for four and a half years and the day may come when my mind, thought and expression may be freer than they are today. There are people who are desirous always of marching forward. There are those who, cautious in mind and temperament, prefer to conserve and maintain what has been achieved and fear to risk further advance. My party represents the spirit of the forward march. The Conservative Party has always represented an excessive caution and an unwillingness to move. Let it be said that the Conservative Party in days long past has on occasion done things which have been for the credit of this country. The adventurous spirits are an essential element in any progressive community. The conservative spirit, the cautious spirit, is equally essential. It can apply, and rightly applies, the brake to the wheel. That is a function which is essential in any democratic institution. I would, therefore, prefer to keep the two-party system. A complication of parties tends to confuse political issues, and the strength of our position, as against that of certain continental countries, has lain in the fact that we have been primarily a two-party system country. We have, I think, now arrived at the time when the people outside the two predominant parties should make up their minds under which umbrella they will come. It is in the interests of political controversy that

  1291
  issues should be as clearly defined as possible, and the two-party system, if it can be achieved, is obviously the best system. I speak as one who represents a party that was an interloper in the hegemony established by the Liberals and Conservatives, but we are in a stronger position now and we can take a rather more independent view.
  It is because that is the broad situation as I see it that I think Proportional Representation would be a national danger. It would result in a good deal of misrepresentation and the establishment of groups whose interests were narrowly divided on one particular problem out of all relation whatever to the broad sweep of national problems that must come before Parliament. I cannot think that it is an ideal situation to freeze the population on election day and take a still picture of it, and say, "That represents the mind of the nation" because I do not think that is the case. It is important that broad trends of opinion on the major questions of politics should, if need be, be exaggerated in accordance with the predominant trend of the time. I am not much concerned about the mathematical accuracy of the representation of parties. If the tide is with the Conservative Party, if the trend of the country's thought is in favour of caution, there is no harm in that being somewhat exaggerated. If, on the other hand, the mood of the nation is in favour of a forward march, I see no reason why that trend of thought in the ballot result should not be somewhat exaggerated.
  Sir Herbert Holdsworth: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he felt that way in 1931?
  Mr. Greenwood: I do not see how that applies.
  Sir H. Holdsworth: Was there not a great exaggeration in the 1931 election?
  Mr. Greenwood: I am prepared in political life to take my licking when it comes to me. You cannot have a system which works in favour of one party all the time and against another party all the time, and if we suffer in consequence of an exaggeration of voting that is our misfortune and, maybe, the country's. There have been occasions when this party has been slightly over-represented,
  1292
  though I do not believe that was a national disaster. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend and his colleagues only nearly escaped disaster.
  Mr. McGovern: We have survived, though.
  Mr. Greenwood: Yes, but only just.
  Mr. Maxton: We are still here, anyway.
  Mr. Greenwood: I do not feel that the system of Proportional Representation is suited to the political conditions of this country, and I should hope that quite definite conclusions to that effect will emerge from the Speaker's Conference. I am interested really, in making our political system as effective an instrument as we can for the expression of the minds and the wills of the people, and I appeal to hon. Members opposite to support this broad case: that in the interests of the fulfilment of Parliamentary democracy, and in the interests of those millions of young people on whom heavy responsibilities will fall after this war is over, we should do everything at the Speaker's Conference to end this subtle pressure of wealth and privilege, do everything we can to ensure that men and women can speak freely their own minds, vote as they wish and stand for Parliament if they wish, without being required to possess enormous resources, either personal or corporate. If we can do that we shall have done a very good piece of work for the country, and I look forward to the results of the Conference with a certain amount of hope. I think hon. Members opposite realise that many of our practices are now outworn and do not fit the needs of a new and developing democracy, and that they feel that in the interests of justice and decency and freedom we should reorganise and reform our electoral system so that the mind of the people can be properly represented.
  Sir Percy Harris: I should like to be allowed to reiterate, and we cannot do so too often, how much we all appreciate your willingness, Mr. Speaker, to take on the additional burden, with all your great responsibilities, of presiding over this Conference that is to inquire into the whole system of elections. It is a guarantee that the Conference will do its work, under your guidance, in such a way that every point

  1293
  of view will be heard, considered and weighed on its merits. This Conference has a special responsibility, perhaps a bigger responsibility than that of any Committee that this House has set up. We are an old Parliament, nine years old. We were elected for five years, but owing to the exigencies of war we have year by year renewed our life, As the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) very well pointed out, there are vast sections of the electorate who have never had an opportunity to express their views or exercise votes. Those who voted in the General Election of 1935 were at least 21 years old. That means that there are few men and women under 30 who have had an opportunity to vote for this House of Commons except at by-elections and who can feel they are represented in it. There is this significance about that fact, that they are the very section of our people that have borne the main brunt of the fighting in the war. Many of them, I know, have a feeling of frustration and are wondering what will become of them when the war is over. It is therefore vital that they should have confidence in the Parliament that will be elected when this one is dissolved, and that they should feel that there are Members in that Parliament who will express their point of view.
  There is bound to be discontent after a great upheaval like this war. I was in the last war Parliament though I was out of the post-war Parliament, but I remember there was very severe criticism of the character and quality of that postwar Parliament. It was, rightly or wrongly, and I believe rightly, regarded as reactionary and not representative of the nation, but the war Parliament, to do it justice, did make drastic reforms, did make a gallant attempt to bring that post-war Parliament more into line with modern conditions. It set up a Speaker's Conference, and, incidentally, I would remind the Home Secretary that it was not in the fifth year of the war but in the third. He has been an unconscionable time in making up his mind. It has taken a great deal of pressure and persuasion, in the fifth year of the war, to bring about this step, but we are thankful for small mercies and only hope that when this Conference is selected it will be an impartial one, and that it will approach its problems without prejudice and with a
  1294
  desire to do what it can to improve Parliament.
  The last Speaker's Conference did some very drastic things. It recommended adult suffrage and the extension of the franchise to women, which in those days was regarded as a very revolutionary proposal. It was an issue of burning controversy, which had divided parties, and yet that Conference did introduce that most revolutionary reform. Thirdly, and I want to emphasise this, because it is sometimes overlooked, it made recommendations for an experiment in the method of elections. Some of those things did not come off, however. During the last quarter of a century many anomalies have been revealed. As my right hon. Friend so well said, the cost of entering Parliament is too great. It has been proved that unless a Member has private means, or has a powerful organisation behind him, it is almost impossible to enter the House of Commons.
  The last quarter of a century has also shown that elections are very much of a gamble. The fluctuations and changes in public opinion have been much more violent, whatever the causes, in the last 25 years than in the years before the war. We are rather inclined to forget that we had three elections in three years, in 1922, 1923 and 1924, which imposed a great physical strain upon candidates and was a terrible drain on their purses. Here I run counter to the right hon. Member for Wakefield who suggests that minorities are adequately represented. In many parts of Great Britain there are vast numbers of Liberal and Labour voters who are not represented in this House of Commons. What is more serious, the public know there is no chance of their getting representation, and that discourages candidates from standing. In a very long speech yesterday the hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) supported my right hon. Friend who has been speaking to-day for the Labour Party. He thinks it is a good thing that minorities should not be represented. He is against third parties. I put it to them that there was a time when the Labour Party was a third party. In the gamble of politics, partly by cross voting and partly from other causes, they have now become the second party, but there is no guarantee that either the Conservatives or the Labour Party may not some day be the third party. Is it

  1295
  to be suggested that because they are the third party they are to be completely snuffed out by the electoral system, not because the electors do not want to see them in Parliament but by the weakness or faults of the machinery of elections? That is a travesty of democracy.
  New parties are coming up. I do not want to give them undue publicity, but there is a great growth in Communism, though it is true that up to the present we have had only one Communist Member. Another party is also coming into existence and has representatives here. It is possible that during the next few years there will be a sweeping change in the country. I do not like to make prophecies, especially in the House of Commons, where they are recorded, but I suggest that in the next five or six years the Conservative Party may have a very rude awakening. They had a very rude awakening in 1906, and I am convinced that in the next few years they will have a severe struggle for existence, and may—it is more than likely—in the gamble of politics find themselves as the third party and much regretting their opposition to any change in the electoral system. The Liberal Party made that mistake. We were largely responsible, through our own folly, for cutting our own throats. With the majority which we had in 1918 we voted against any change in the electoral system.
  I resent profoundly the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman and his colleague the Member for East Stirling, it is an undemocratic idea, that we should force the electors to vote for either one party or the other and that minorities have no rights of representation. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for South Bradford (Sir H. Holdsworth) that that is the doctrine of Hitler, of a totalitarian State. The two parties might get close together and collaborate and form a Coalition Government. After this war we might have a close marriage between the Conservatives and the Labour party, to set up a permanent National Government, with letters and coupons being sent to candidates, and with terrific pressure from powerful organisations like the F.B.I. and the great Trades Union Congress to prevent minorities being represented. The country will not stand for that. The electors do not want to have Members
  1296
  dictated to them by powerful organisations. There was the Skipton election recently—
  Mr. Hugh Lawson: Is the right hon. Member suggesting that the electors of Skipton did not vote for a policy, but had their Member dictated to them?
  Sir P. Harris: What I am pleading for is that the electors should be entitled to express their views, that they should be represented in any way they like, and that the electoral machinery should be such that minorities have a fair deal. As a matter of fact, the Labour Party has been a sufferer in the past from the weakness of our electoral system. In 1931, we were deprived, for a very considerable period, not only of the presence of my right hon. Friend, but also of the most distinguished leaders of his party. In 1929, the Labour Party with 8,000,000 votes, got 288 seats and they were in office. In 1931, only two years afterwards, with 6,500,000 votes they were reduced to 46 seats. That is a travesty of representation. Then, again, in 1935, they got as many votes as in 1929, when they were in office, but they only got 146 seats.
  I think everybody who followed the agricultural Debates last week noted the lack of balance in the system of elections, the significant absence of agriculturists on the Labour side, of Members who could claim to represent rural constituencies. In the rural areas there are vast numbers of both Liberal and Labour electors. In the area south of Thames and Severn that includes the Home Counties. In 1924, although Labour polled very nearly 500,000 votes they got no seats; the Liberals polled 445,000—and got one seat, while the Tories, who polled less than 1,500,000, secured 84 seats. Obviously, there is something wrong; it is not healthy. Conversely the same applies to some of our industrial areas where there are a large number of Conservative and Liberal electors who are not represented, such as South Wales and West Durham. Besides, the present electoral system is such a gamble. We had an example of this in Cornwall in 1924, where all five seats were Tories but, in 1929, with a comparatively small turnover, all these seats went Liberal. There were many electors in both cases who did not feel

  1297
  they had a voice in the discussions and in the Debates in this House. I think we all agree that there is nothing sacrosanct in our present electoral system, the system of single-Member constituencies. I am not in love with any particular alternative, but what I do care for and what I want the Speaker's Conference to examine impartially, is the question of making the House of Commons more representative for various points of view. I ask them to approach the problem, as far as possible, without prejudice. We are in the age of invention, the age of the aeroplane and wireless. We are making all kinds of progress in various ways, in our industrial, social and economic life, and it ought not to be beyond the wit of man or the wit of the Speaker's Conference, to find a satisfactory solution. That is all I ask and, I think, all I have a right to ask.
  There are many methods. There is the list system which is general on the Continent, a system which I, personally, dislike. There is the alternative vote system, which I believe is used in Australia, and then there is this system of Proportional Representation which apparently raises so much controversy between its advocates and its opponents. When this system was discussed yesterday, one would have thought that it was some new invention, although the Home Secretary was able to say that even Mr. Gladstone had heard of it. There was a Debate on that system as long ago as 1885. A kind of Proportional Representation has worked in Scandinavian States, but on the list system, but I want to make it quite clear that the list system is not the same as Proportional Representation as advocated here. This sort of system operated in Switzerland and in Belgium, and, in case anybody should say that these are foreign countries, I would point out that a system of Proportional Representation has been in operation in Tasmania for 30 years where it has not produced a great number of parties.
  We are a peculiar Parliament in many ways: we are sometimes charged with being hypocrites. When we are dealing with another country, whether it be India or Ireland, we do not say then that this single constituency basis is the right one, but insist, as a condition of self-government, that they should have Proportional Representation. They had it in Northern Ireland for five years and dropped it, but the right hon. Member for Antrim (Sir H.
  1298
  O'Neill) yesterday showed that it was quite easy to work and that there were few spoilt ballot papers. In Southern Ireland it has been in operation now for 20 years, and there has not teen a multiplication of parties. On the contrary, there are fewer parties in Southern Ireland than there are here. We must not forget that there are eight parties in this House. They may be of varying size, but there they are. In Southern Ireland, under this system there has only been a reasonable number. While the system has given representation to the minorities, you have greater stability there than in any other part of the British Commonwealth. They have only had two Governments in the last 20 years, the Governments of Mr. Cosgrave and Mr. De Valera. I do not ask the Speaker's Conference to favour any one particular system, but to examine all proposals without prejudice.
  We have had France trotted out as an example. I think it was my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams) who produced France from his sleeve, as a trump card. The system France had just after the last war was described by a Committee which examined it as a travesty, a caricature of Proportional Representation In France you have four-year Parliaments in which the Prime Minister has no power to ask the President to dissolve it. The consequence was you had constant changes, uncertainty and lack of responsibility of members. That is the reason why it is generally admitted that the Parliamentary machinery in France did not work, but I might add the Gallic spirit also had something to do with the situation, with the breaking up into a number of groups.
  What I want to emphasise is that the Speaker's Conference in 1917 recommended, with no uncertainty, that 100 areas should have a system of Proportional Representation applied to them and it was embodied in an Act of Parliament. If hon. Members will look at the Representation of Peoples Act of 1918, Section 20, Sub-section (2, a), they will find that provision is made for its application and that commissioners were to be set up to select 100 suitable seats. Incidentally, Clause 41 defines and explains the system of the single transferable vote.
  The Commissioners were duly appointed, and they selected a number of

  1299
  towns, after careful examination and inquiry. It was this list of towns which was not accepted. The Act of Parliament was carried, but it was the vested interests of various Members which threw over the actual list. Proportional Representation was again recommended by the 1930 Committee, which was not, as has been suggested, a Speaker's Conference. It was the Ullswater Committee. Lord Ullswater is one and the same person as Mr. Speaker Lowther, and he presided over another Committee which, by a majority only, again recommended a change in our electoral machinery for part of the country.
  In conclusion, I plead that when the Committee comes to deliberate, it should examine the whole electoral machinery. I am grateful to the Home Secretary for keeping the terms of reference as broad as possible. I have a shrewd suspicion what his approach is to the problem. It was very statesmanlike to give this Conference, which I hope will represent all that is best in the House of Commons, a free hand. The Committee will have a great responsibility. We know that a very strong case is going to be made for a continuation of national government, after the war, and I think there is a feeling, not confined by any means to one party, but general throughout the country, that the problems of peace will be so difficult and complex that, at any rate immediately after the war, a national government should be kept in existence. On the other hand, and let us be frank with ourselves, Liberals and Labour—and I believe that I am speaking now for both parties—will not be prepared to stabilise the House of Commons on the present basis. No one has said this from the Labour benches. The impression made on my mind by the hon. Member the Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) is that he wanted to keep things as they are. I believe that the feeling of the Liberal and Labour Parties, and among the Independents is, that they are not prepared to stabilise the present basis. When we come to the General Election, a coupon system, which was so unfortunate in the last post-war Parliament, should not be repeated.
  Mr. Woodburn: If the right hon. Gentleman is in any doubt about the matter, may I say that neither this party, nor the country itself, would stand for a
  1300
  repetition of what happened after the last war?
  Sir P. Harris: That strengthens my position and makes my case very much stronger. I thought I was speaking for his party in this matter. That, post-war experience was very unfortunate and I think there is an overwhelming feeling against any system of coupons. If we are to have a national Government, and if the two minority parties in this House are dead against any pact or any attempt to stop candidates standing, it will be vital to devise some machinery so that there can be a free run, while at the same time supporting for the moment the continuation of a national Government. I believe that can be done by some system of Proportional Representation. The Speaker's Conference may find some other way out, but, if it really does its duty and justifies its existence, it must face the fact of the difficulty of a post-war election.
  It would be a tragedy to have the ordinary cat-and-dog political fight just after the war, but if there is to be reasonable representation of various sections of public opinion there must be some fundamental change in the machinery of election. I press that point, which is a strong case for an investigation of various systems or methods of election. I believe that the next Parliament will have appalling problems. It will have to devise a system of maintaining peace. The right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) has disclosed in his autobiography how difficult it was when he was Prime Minister, and how he was handicapped at Versailles by the pressure groups, unrepresentative as it proved, from this House of Commons. We know the kind of Parliament we want after this war, representative of all that is best in the country, to help the Government to build peace on firm foundations. There will also be appalling economic problems to solve. I am not one of those who believe that those problems will be simple, that there will be plenty of work and no unemployment. We shall need all the skill of the Government and of Parliament after the war, if we are to avoid civil war and revolution—I do not mind saying it—and economic upheaval. Only if we have a Parliament which is truly representative of all that is best in the country, and if—and I insist upon this point as perhaps the most important of all—minorities

  1301
  can express their opinions in the House of Commons through duly elected Members and will not feel that, because of the crudity of our electoral machinery, they are prevented from being heard and have to resort to revolutionary methods, can we hope to rebuild our country in the postwar years on sound, democratic political principles.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton Pownall: It is usual, if one has a personal interest of a financial nature in a matter under discussion, to avow it frankly. I happen to have a very substantial financial interest in this question, by reason of the fact that I have for some time represented by far the largest constituency in the county of London, and also by the fact that my election expenses have been appreciably larger in the consequence. There has for some time been an interesting report in the Library, from part of which we are not at liberty to quote. I was amused to see that it was referred to as an electrical report and not an electoral report. Apparently this vigorous report is of such a nature that it galvanised the Government into activity and gave rise to dynamic repercussions throughout the country, in the way of changes not from the electricity point of view but from the electoral point of view.
  I propose to give a certain number of figures to the House. They will be related to the 1939 electorate, and we are, of course, at liberty to mention them as they were published before the war, and not any other figures that may be in that Report. The hon. Member for Hendon (Sir R. Blair) was speaking yesterday of the anomalies, of which we are all aware, in county boroughs. In the county of London, we also have one very considerable anomaly, which I will just mention. East Lewisham happened to have 96,300 electors in 1939, which is about twice the size of the normal constituency. I have been at pains to look up other 1939 figures, and I find that we had more electors in that one constituency than the five boroughs of Bethnal Green, Bermondsey, Paddington, Hammersmith, and Poplar. Those five boroughs, each with two Members of Parliament, had double the representation of East Lewisham, which had appreciably more electors. An even greater anomaly is to be found in Southwark, which has three Members of
  1302
  Parliament, and an appreciably smaller electorate than East Lewisham. The reason is a simple one and is because of two housing estates put up after the last war. I am wondering how many Members have found their electorates more than doubled. So, I have a considerable financial interest in redistribution.
  The broad position is practically agreed upon. It is hardly necessary, after yesterday's speech by the Home Secretary and other speeches, to argue in favour of redistribution, but I should like, as a town Member, to make one point. I want to see a certain amount of weighting given to agricultural seats. I never sat for an agricultural seat, but I know the great difficulties of contact caused by geography and a scattered population. My suggestion would be a weighting of roughly one quarter, or some figure of that sort, given to seats which are mainly agricultural, say two-thirds town, and one-third agricultural. Where the seat is mainly agricultural a figure of 40,000 for the electorate would seem to be sufficient, and 50,000 seems to be the right level for a purely urban seat.
  On that basis I have ventured to work out a sum with regard to the future membership of this House. The electorate in 1939 was slightly over 31,000,000. Assuming that the electorate after redistribution would be in the neighbourhood of 32,000,000, if you gave 50,000 electors per seat, you would have 640 Members in this House. That excludes Northern Ireland and the universities. I am going to assume that their representation remains unaltered at 24. Then I take about 100 agricultural seats. I cannot say off hand whether the number should be 90 or 110, but I think that 100 is roughly the number that the Commissioners would find were entitled to a weighting, as I have just suggested. I count those seats as returning not 100 Members but 125, having weighted them, in order that the 40,000 electors in a seat of an agricultural character should have the same representation as a town constituency of 50,000. We should get 689 Members on this plan as the membership for the next House of Commons. In prewar days, when I used to discuss redistribution with my friends, they rather took the line that we could not have more than 615 Members, for seating and other reasons. Very few people realise that

  1303
  before the last war there were 670 Members of Parliament and that after the last war the conference of Mr. Speaker Lowther put down 707 as what they thought would give a fair representation.
  Since before the last war, our electorate has, roughly speaking, quadrupled. In round figures there were over 7,000,000 electors. In 1939 there were a little over 31,000,000. I do not think the addition of 20 or 30 Members unfair to represent a more than quadrupled electorate. I. do not think the country could say, as the electorate has been more than quadrupled, that it was not in proportion to the increase in population, apart from the increase in the electorate. I am very anxious that there should be periodical readjustments. Had there been such adjustments it may be that I should not now have the privilege of representing 96,000 electors. In Canada, and I think Australia, it is done at regular intervals. It would seem to me that we could make some definite provision that this readjustment should come in intervals of not more than ten years. The years I suggest would be the census years. It would be very easy indeed for there to be automatic consideration of these questions by the statutory boundary commissioners in a census year, unless it was thought that on the figures as shown by the census it was not necessary, or of course action could be taken in one of the intervening years. This thing should not be left for the Government to have to take the initiative as has been taken now, and as was taken in the last war. It is a very difficult initiative to take which causes all sorts of political passions to rise. I think it ought to be taken right away from party politics and should be at regular intervals, I suggest not less frequently than every ten years.
  My right hon. Friend dealt with Proportional Representation which he believes in. I happen not to, but I will not go into that at any length. My right hon. Friend mentioned Cornwall. I agree that Cornwall had five Liberal seats in 1929 and that they all went in 1931, but if you are to have Proportional Representation you must surely have very much larger units both in population and distance. It would probably mean a five Member constituency in Cornwall, which would mean that an unfortunate individual would have to
  1304
  canvass the whole county of Cornwall and then sit for the whole county. Between elections his public duties would entail going round the whole county. The strain on a Member of Parliament is sufficiently severe in these days. Do let us try to concentrate our activities rather than increase them fivefold. I am tempted to twit my right hon. Friend by pointing out that in 1906 my friends were grossly under-represented here. We had about 150 in the Opposition, while on the other side there were in round figures 500. Obviously we had far more than a quarter of the votes. Surely this was the time for the Liberal Party to bring in a measure of Proportional Representation.
  Sir P. Harris: May I say that the Liberals are largely themselves to blame. The Liberal Party, I agree, through their own folly in not seeing the weakness of the electoral system, are now suffering. What I am suggesting is that my hon. and gallant Friend and his party may find themselves in 1948 or some other date in a similar position.
  Sir A. Pownall: As my right hon. Friend has mentioned the folly of the Liberal Party in the past I will not pursue that subject further, but it shows how difficult these things are that these two different views have been held by the Liberal Party.
  There are two other points I want to make with regard to the facts given yesterday. I have been at pains to look up the Scottish position. A certain amount of anxiety was displayed by my Scottish friends with regard to the position of Scotland in a measure of redistribution. Taking the 1939 figures I find that in the case of Scotland there would be four or fide fewer Members if it was on a strict mathematical basis, but of these three would come from Glasgow where, presumably, there has been a movement outwards in the same way that there has been from the inner boroughs in London. There are Caithness, the Orkneys, the Shetlands and the Western Islands. No one wishes to disfranchise these large scattered electorates and these would come under my theory of weighting agricultural seats, and I think if three Members were taken away from Glasgow our Scottish friends' anxieties would be considerably relieved, because for the reasons I have given the numbers of Scottish

  1305
  candidates would be maintained and Scotland would have only three Members less and not a large number as was suggested yesterday.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Sir D. Hacking) spoke about polling cards and suggested that they might go out officially and not be sent by individual Members. I myself, with this large electorate, have in recent General Elections instead of going to the trouble and expense of printing 96,000 polling cards, addressing 96,000 envelopes, and arranging for the distribution of art extra 96,000 missives, which do not come under the free postage—the candidate usually uses this for his election address—with a little opposition at first from old ultra Conservative friends, sent out my polling card with the election address. It worked very well. Many Members, I do not doubt, do the same thing. May I, in conclusion, wish you, Mr. Speaker, the very best of good fortune. I do not entirely envy you your task but I am quite sure that, under your guidance, we shall come to decisions fair to all parties.
  Mr. Guy: I am very grateful for the opportunity of offering one or two observations on these proposals. Before I do so, I would like to say a word or two in reference to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary yesterday that the question of redistribution was a very tricky business. The view I hold is that this question must not be discussed in a very tricky way, because to do so would be, in my judgment, in respect to those constituencies which may be affected, a travesty of justice. With regard to redistribution I incline to the view that it is putting the cart before the horse because I do not believe that the question of the redistribution of seats is a practical proposition until a resettlement of the population has taken place. Stable conditions do not now exist and are unlikely to return for a considerable period after an Armistice. Moreover, the wartime movements of the population furnish no evidence as to the extent, direction or rate of anticipated counter movements during the period within which a General Election is to be expected. Taking as an example the borough of Poplar, part of which I represent, there are several factors operating now, which bear out very fully
  1306
  the reasons for the belief I have just stated.
  There may be some hon. Members who believe that because a particular constituency has been heavily bombed, that is a reason why it should be done away with, or joined with another constituency. It has to be understood that large numbers of the population, again taking my own borough as an example, are only temporarily residing elsewhere and at the earliest possible moment they will return. Some Members may ask why. The answer is that large numbers of our people have had to go out, because of the misfortunes they have suffered. Large numbers have been sent away under the direction of the Ministry of Labour and are only temporarily residing in lodgings or with relatives. Many of these will return. Even if we take the population figure to-day, it has to be borne in mind that the average family in the constituency in which I live, has three to four members serving in the Forces at the present time. It has also to be remembered that this is their home, that they are potential voters, and they are looking forward to returning to the place that they knew as their home.
  An important factor that affects places like the East End concerns those men who work in our docks and ship repairing yards. We should realise that these people are only temporarily living outside the district, because of circumstances such as I have explained, and I would ask Members, especially those who will have the opportunity of discussing these problems in the Conference, to realise the inconvenience these men are putting up with to-day in order to win the war. They have to travel an hour and a half in the morning in crowded trains to get to work, and another hour and a half to get home when they have done their hard day's work. We know what the position will be after the final whistle goes. They will take the first opportunity of returning to our division, whether it be to one room or two rooms. They will return because, for years, they have had to live near their work; they will return because it is their livelihood and because their family and their forbears have all lived in that part of the world. It is because of these problems that the question of redistribution must be considered in the light of the situation such as that of which I have spoken and I

  1307
  am sure that the Committee, when they consider these problems, will have due regard to that situation.
  There is also the question of rebuilding. The housing programmes of the London County Council—of which I am a member—and other local authorities, will, alone, determine the return of a large number of people to those districts. I would like to draw attention to the question of Parliamentary and local government votes. It is absurd that we should allow men and women to vote for legislators and not for administrators, although one is as important as the other. I suggest that the Committee should amalgamate the two votes. I listened very carefully yesterday to many of the speeches, and I got the impression that quite a number of Members anticipated that they would not return to this House after the next election, for they spoke of welcoming the younger men and women as Members of Parliament. Many of my colleagues on this side, at any rate, were enabled by the training we had in local government to come to this great Chamber when we were called upon to do so. It seems to me quite clear that the joining together of the Parliamentary and local government votes would be to the advantage of Parliament. I am grateful for the opportunity of saying these few words, and I hope that what I have said will be given due weight by those responsible for the final decision.
  Mr. Bartle Bull: With regard to what the hon. Member for South Poplar (Mr. Guy) has said about the movement of population, I agree to some extent, and I would like to make a few remarks on the subject later. I was rather anxious about some of the things said by the right hon. Baronet the Member for South West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris). As he is absent off parade, I will deal very gently with him. He referred to the folly of the Liberal Party in the past, and suggested that the Conservative Party might, in tike future, become the third party in the State. I think I am reasonably correct in saying that. I would like to remind the right hon. Baronet of an old Latin saying which starts "Experientia stultos docet," the meaning of the next line, roughly, being that wise men learn by the experience of others. I hope that the Conservative Party will learn by the errors of others.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): That is a very rough translation.
  Mr. Bull: Perhaps so. The right hon. Baronet referred to Eire, and said that Proportional Representation resulted there in only two parties. If that is so, I cannot see why the Liberal Party should be interested in Proportional Representation in this country. Yesterday one Member said that, in view of the numbers of the electorate and other considerations, people ought to have the right to see their candidates. I am, of course, not referring to any candidate in particular, but I wonder whether, if the electors were all enabled to see their candidates how many of us would be here. I have travelled the world as much as most. I heard the case of Scotland pleaded forcefully and well. I am partly Scottish myself, and I agreed with it, but if we are going into the number of Members which Scotland has, we might also go into the question of how many divisions in this country, or anywhere else, are represented by Scotsmen. We are met to decide something for the good of the people of the United Kingdom, and, as the Debate has gone, I think we subscribe to that idea, entirely irrespective of party feeling—at least, I hope so. The question is the common good of the people. I cannot conceive, to judge from the speeches made in this House to-day and yesterday, that any Member does not feel that way about it. If this House acts in any other spirit, it is just as dust in the balance, and once that is found out it is taken away and does not amount to anything. The main principle goes back to an old saying—whether this will be a rough quotation or not, perhaps the Foreign Secretary will advise me—that what we are looking for is
  "Government of the people, by the people, for the people."
  This issue may be decided in any way that Members think fit, but unless we keep before our minds that picture of
  "Government of the people, by the people, for the people,"
  we shall be found wanting. On this question of redistribution, if we are to do it at all, we should do the job properly, or as nearly properly as we can. There has been talk of the university vote, with which I personally agree. I think it has been a great asset to the deliberations of this House. Also, we have heard about

  1309
  the business vote, about which there has been controversy. About Proportional Representation, I should like to say only that I shall vote against it on every conceivable opportunity. The hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. Harvey) referred yesterday to the Constitution of Tasmania. I would ask him and anyone else favouring Proportional Representation, including the right hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green, who also referred to Tasmania, whether they can honestly say that they have found a Constitution which worked better than the British Constitution, as revised and amended from time to time. Personally, I have not found such a Constitution. We do not want a multiplicity of parties such as they had in France. Our people want a straight issue, to pay their money and take their choice.
  Mr. George Griffiths: What about the alternative vote? Are you going to touch that?
  Mr. Bull: I am going to speak for about a quarter of an hour. I will go on as long as other people want me to, but I would rather just read off what I have written here first. If we do not have some redistribution soon, whatever principle you work upon, democracy becomes a farce. Being a Conservative, and therefore belonging to the party of progress, I think that if we go on like this, with enormous constituencies and very small ones, we shall have to come to something like a referendum; but if we can set up a Committee to rearrange the constituencies from time to time, we shall have a referendum of the people all the time. Therefore, if this House is to represent the country, we must have redistribution, and we must have it soon. I agree that some boundaries must be defined geographically, but there are enormous areas which it is impossible for a candidate to cover, and such areas must have a smaller number of electors than some of the highly industrialised divisions and that local interests must be considered. But I think we are all generally agreed on the old saying, "One man, one vote"—or perhaps, if you wish to be strictly honest, you should say, "One woman, two votes." But, however that may be, I can see no reason why we might not have an immediate partial redistribution. You can take any fair division;
  1310
  suppose that you leave alone any constituency of not below 30,000 or 40,000, and not above 70,000 or 80,000, whatever figure you may choose. You can then take a mean average of something like 54,000 people, which should form a reasonable division, but, to make up for leaving some divisions which were too small in population untouched, it would be necessary perhaps to increase the number of Members of Parliament, because you must have personal contact with your constituency. The Home Secretary referred yesterday to a great small arms factory employing 20,000 people, and said that we could not tell what would happen to these people after the war. He said that that was a very great problem, whether you were to take into account these 20,000 people or not. My reply on that is that if those 20,000 people are not employed after the war, and for many years to come, in that or in other small arms factories, we shall have another war on our hands in 20 years' time; so he must take them into account.
  Take the case of the Lord President of the Council, who represents, very ably, of course, a reasonably small division, and also the case of the right hon. Baronet the Member for South West Bethnal Green. The right hon. Baronet said—I think I quote him reasonably correctly—that if they had more Members they would have a voice in the discussions in this House. With all respect to the right hon. Gentleman, I think he contributes his share, albeit he represents a small division, just think, if we increased the size of his division and gave him two or three times as many constituents, how many more letters he would receive. He would then be able to speak even more often.
  Mr. G. Griffiths: They call him every time he gets up—he is the leader of a party.
  Mr. Bull: Yes, but he would have more to say if he got more letters. I do not think that we are working on the principle now of, "one man, one vote." If you have a constituency of 25,000 or 30,000 and another constituency of 170,000 electors, that is not "one man, one, vote." The man in the right hon. Baronet's Division has really four or five votes compared with the man in the larger division. These smaller divisions should be redistributed. There are two

  1311
  Member constituencies which are smaller than some of the single-Member constituencies and, obviously, that is wrong and these patent anomalies should be corrected as soon as possible. The hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt) said yesterday that he did not know of an occasion when the Conservative Party did not produce a dirty trick at the last moment. I stand open to correction, but I think that the hon. and learned Member said something of that character. I would reply to him, that I wonder whether there is ever an occasion when the Labour Party do not produce a dishonest promise at the last moment, a promise of something which cannot be fulfilled.
  Mr. G. Griffiths: Never.
  Mr. Bull: I still assert that fact. In any event, we want to hear the voice of the people the whole of the time, and, therefore, we should have a permanent commission sitting on redistribution and some redistribution should be effected every few years, determining whatever Mr. Speaker's Conference decreed. Some of us would no doubt have bad luck, and some of us good luck, but it should be done as soon as possible and in a thoroughgoing manner.
  In regard to election expenses and subscriptions to local associations and things of that sort, if it is true that young men of ability are not adequately represented in any party in this House, and if we are all serious and agreed about this matter, the reason, surely, is obvious—it is financial in character. Each party has shown itself either unable or unwilling to put its own house in order and therefore the law must come in and lay down what is to be done about these things.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South-West Bethnal Green also referred to the cost of entering Parliament and I read an admirable leading article in "The Times" this morning. You do not want to falsify representation and therefore the best thing to do is to increase the deposit that any candidate or his backers have to put up when such a candidate wishes to put himself forward for election to the House of Commons. We should increase the deposit, and if the candidate or his backers are serious and think that he has a chance, he would get his money back if he polled a certain percentage
  1312
  of the votes. That, in my opinion, would put an end to people who were inclined to split the vote. I agree with the hon. Gentleman the Member for South Poplar (Mr. Guy) about housing and I, like him, am very worried about it. I hope that we are going to get on with this question as soon as possible.
  Sir Robert Young: In rising to take part in this Debate, I am afraid I shall be rather matter of fact in what I have to say and I trust that I shall not bore hon. Members who are in the House and have to endure it. I am one of those who have grown weary in times past of repetition of argument, but in a Debate of this kind it is hardly possible to avoid it. I trust that, if I happen in any way to stress what has been said by others, I shall be forgiven. We are having a two days' Debate on what I consider to be an agreed Motion. I do not think that anyone in this House will get up and say, "Leave things as they are; it is of no use bothering with electoral reforms." When the proposed Conference is set up there will be many conflicting problems to settle, but what is puzzling me is that I cannot see how any arrangement made for the next General Election can be of a permanent character for the elections that will come after. It is altogether impossible to settle the geographical boundaries of constituencies until the soldiers have returned and have settled in their homes and until the population have found somewhat more permanent locations than they have to-day. I am one, nevertheless, who believes that reform is due. It was due before the war. It is much more due now seeing that the war has taken place. I therefore trust that before very long we shall have a new method of electoral representation, because at the present time many of the electors no longer reside where they are registered. Constituencies in many parts of the country have been depleted and in other parts they suffer from repletion to a very large extent. Where these people ultimately are going to settle I do not know, and neither do they, and, therefore, to settle the boundaries of any constituency before the population has more or less settled itself after the war seems to me to be an impossible thing to do.
  I listened with great interest to the informative speech of the Home Secretary. I agree with a good many of the things

  1313
  he said, but with none did I agree more enthusiastically and fervently than with the statement that every vote, as far as possible, should be of the same value. If that is not accomplished at the Speaker's Conference in their suggestions to us, and if any future House of Commons, or this one, passes a Bill which does not make each vote of equal value, then it is nothing more or less, from the point of view and on the part of the Members of this House passing the new Act, than a deliberate fraud on the electors of the country. The size of constituencies and the inconvenience to candidates and Members are of secondary importance to the great object of securing equal voting power throughout the land for all the people who are represented in this House. Therefore, I agree with those who say that double constituencies should be abolished. There should be no preferential localities anywhere. The duty of this House should be to make elections easy, inexpensive and thoroughly representative of the voters, and if this House, deliberately or otherwise, fails to make itself a reflection of the nation's opinion, then we shall be doing a disservice to democracy.
  Democracy has taken many forms. In this country it has been a growth. From 1215 to 1919 the struggle went on to get full Parliamentary voting power, more and more becoming democratic, and in the countries to which reference has been made, democracy has been built up into a fabricated institution. Perhaps they have not been so successful in other countries as has been the case in this country, because the parties have said, "There is a democracy; let us copy them," and very often, in making their advance, they took great pains to safeguard their own particular interests as parties in those countries. Democracy in these countries has, as has been alluded to by one hon Member, taken the form of not voting for individual Members or representatives, in the sense of those who are in this House, but of voting for the party as such, and according to the number of votes cast for the party, the number of votes in the assembly was allocated. There was also in some other parts of the world a system of election by colleges. I am glad that neither of these methods operate in this country. Democratic to a little extent, as they may be, they are all in the direction of totalitarianism in the end.
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  Somebody has said that the biggest gamble in the world is a British General Election, and I think I agree with that. This House has never been thoroughly representative of the constituencies of the country during the 25 years I have been in it. The present system is not truly representative. Members come into the House—I am often amazed at it, the only party I can exempt is the party below the Gangway, we all do it—say that they represent a constituency as a whole. That is an impossibility. How can a minority candidate represent a constituency as a whole? How can Conservatives represent Labour, or Liberals represent Conservatives? And how can we represent either Tories or Liberals? We may do our best for each individual constituent on matters of grievance, but politically, and in the sense that it is sometimes used of representing the constituency, it is only a figure of speech and means nothing.
  If we examine past elections we find curious results. I find in this House there was a majority of Members of one party representing a minority in the country, speaking of the House as a whole. Surely, that is altogether wrong. I came into this House in 1918, which was the same year in which Mr. Speaker came, and there are few of us left in it. Five of us of that year have sat in the Chair, more or less, as Chairmen of Ways and Means or as Deputy-Chairmen. That was a coupon election. There was a very meagre retinue of Labour supporters in this House in 1918. Two-fifths of the electorate of the country voted against the coupon election. Was that fair to the Labour Party? That is the present system. I do not like it, and I must confess that I am sorry to find that so many of my friends seem to think it is the best system. That was in 1918. What about 1924? There was a 200 majority for the Government party, but they were in an actual minority in the country. I give the House the figures. In 1924, the Conservatives received 7,861,402 votes. The other parties combined received 8,774,134 votes. Yet the Conservatives had a majority of 200 or thereabouts. Is that fair? Is that representative of the constituencies in the country? Was that equal voting? Was it even "One man, one vote"? Certainly not—neither justice in the House nor justice to the electors. Let me take 1929. There were 150 Conservative Members in this House who had a minority vote in

  1315
  their constituencies, 118 Labour Members who had a minority vote in their constituencies and 40 Liberal Members who had a minority vote. Is that democratic franchise? Is that equal voting? Is that fair to the electors? Certainly not.
  Let us come to 1935. The majority was 247 Members—a very large majority, but not so very large a majority in the country, however. The Government vote in 1935 was 11,791,461. The Opposition vote was 9,992,710. Yet, with that difference, the party that sits on the other side had a majority of 247. What is the good of talking about democratic franchise if it is to work out in this way? What is the good of saying the people of the country are represented in this House if it is to work out like that? We know perfectly well, and I know from my 25 years in this House, that we have never had a true reflection of the votes of the people in the country.
  The present system does not work as some people would like to believe it does. Perhaps, in making these remarks after the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood), I should say that I am speaking for myself in this respect. For a long time it has been recognised that our present system does not work properly, Some reformers have suggested a Second Ballot. My objection to it is that it is expensive. It is a second election, and leaves itself open to bargaining between parties. A combination of parties could destroy some other party. You can even lose seats by the Second Ballot. The Social Democrats in Germany at one time lost a very large number of seats in the Second Ballot. I do not want the Second Ballot, because I think it would be a second election, with increased expense, interference with business and, worst of all, many of the electors would not take the trouble to go to the polling booth twice in succession in a short time.
  Another suggestion is the alternative vote. I have a hazy idea that the Labour Party seemed to prefer it and put it in a Bill. It went to the other House and was taken out. We disagreed with the other House, and we sent it back. It went to the other House again and was taken out again. To save the Bill we had to leave the thing alone. The alternative vote is only a Second Ballot in one election. That is all it amounts to. It is
  1316
  an improvement on the Second Ballot, but that is all it is, and it tends to three-cornered contests, especially in industrial areas. It also is open to a combination of parties in bargaining and doing everything possible to damn a new party. You can plump for a candidate. I am old enough to remember how, in Glasgow, they plumped for a candidate in days gone by, and, to make sure that he would get elected, they wasted some of their votes when there was more than one vote in a constituency.
  The alternative vote has been tried, and I want my friends to consider it. It has been tried in Alberta. Listen to the result. The United Farmers received 42 seats, and the Liberals, Labourites and Conservatives only 8 by the alternative vote method. Yet the Farmers' vote was 68,921 and the vote for all the others was 68,073, and the difference of representation was 43 to 8. An hon. Member who spoke before me does not want anything to do with Proportional Representation. I was not quite sure whether he also agreed with the alternative vote, but, to make Alberta still more clear to Members, the Liberal vote was 36,693 and they got only five Members returned. The Conservatives polled 26,197, and they got none—and it served them jolly well right if they will stick to the present system—but the most remarkable thing was that Labour got 5,183 votes, and, by alternative voting, managed to get three seats.
  Let us try another of our Dominions—the Australian Commonwealth Senate. In 1925 the National and County parties in Australia received 1,537,282 votes and got 22 seats. Labour polled 1,262,912 votes and got none by the alternative vote. When we are considering these matters, and I have no doubt the Conference will do so, I want to say to some of my friends, and to others, that we have all this experience behind us. Fools do not, but wise men learn from experience. I have said that there are various systems—the present one, the Second Ballot, the alternative vote and Proportional Representation. I prefer Proportional Representation. I say that this matter should have no relation to party interests. I want a representative House, with equal value for equal votes.
  Proportional Representation, where it has been tried, has been in the main a

  1317
  success. In Eire, in Tasmania, in United South Africa, in Belgium, Finland and Sweden it has been a success. Most remarkable of all is that this Government of Liberals, Labour and Conservatives, in dealing with India, proposes Proportional Representation for the electorate which is to be formed in that vast country. There is some reason, perhaps, why the illiterate people should have some education to teach them to vote. That is the position, as I see it, and I cannot understand why an hon. Member should be opposed to Proportional Representation in this country, where we are not supposed to be illiterate, when we are proposing it for India. There is something more to be said for Proportional Representation. It has advantages which other systems have not. It will encourage the electors to vote, in my estimation, and it will make coupon elections impossible. You can issue your coupon, but that will not keep candidates from coming forward and doing their best. I want to quote a gentleman for whom I have a great regard—Dr. Harold Butler, former Director of the I.L.O., who said:
  "Only in the Netherlands, the Scandinavian countries, Switzerland and Czechoslovakia can it be said that the problem of reconciling strong Executive action with the free play of popular representation has been satisfactorily solved."
  In all these countries Proportional Representation has been exercised for a good many years. It has been objected that it will be expensive. Why should it? I fail to see why it should be expensive. It is not more expensive than the present system; it should be far less, in my estimation. Johannesburg municipal election was run on Proportional Representation. The Labour Party ran three candidates, got two of them in and the total expenses of the three were £18—and you know what sort of a place Johannesburg is. My hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams)—I am sorry he is not in his place—said yesterday:
  "So far as ordinary people are concerned, give me enough money and a system of Proportional Representation, and I will elect any people you wish. The system is more open to corruption than any system I know. All you have to do is to subsidise a number of Independent candidates, collecting all the crank votes, and advise all the people to give their second preference to yourself."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 1st February; col. 1176, Vol. 396.]
  I suppose my hon. Friend includes his
  1318
  own party in that when he talks about ordinary people, and suggests that a large number of his own constituents and others can be bought in relation to their vote. I felt when I read it that that was utter nonsense. I must say that, although I have known the hon. Member for a long while, before we came to this House, and although we have been friends ever since, I cannot see that there will be any possibility of buying votes under Proportional Representation more easily than now. If I have any ill wish against the hon. Member it is that I wish he was a wealthy man and that we had Proportional Representation. He would lose his money in trying to buy votes under that system.
  Mr. Keeling: What my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams) said was that it would be easy under Proportional Representation to secure freak candidates by paying their election expenses. He did not suggest buying votes.
  Sir R. Young: I do not think it makes much difference. The hon. Member said that all you have to do is to subsidise a number of Independent candidates and these people would get in. If that is not a method of buying votes I do not know what is. At any rate we buy votes now, as has been stated, by the use of motor cars for a large number of persons who will not go to a polling booth unless they can travel in a car. I remember that in 1918 my opponent and I agreed not to run any cars except for our own personal use. I do not know whether it was ever done anywhere else. The other side did not strictly keep to the agreement, although that was not the Conservative candidate's fault. Once we found a parson disobeying the agreement. We told him about it, and he said he was sorry, but later he was found in another part of the constituency doing the same thing. A lady, when asked whether she did not know about the agreement, said, "The candidates can make any agreement they like. This is my car and I intend to use it." There was no getting over that. I preferred the lady to the parson, because she was exercising her right——
  Mr. Gallacher: Do not forget that others want to speak.
  Sir R. Young: The hon. Member takes up a great deal of the time of this House. I speak seldom.
  Mr. Gallacher: The front benchers have been heard too much in this Debate.
  Sir R. Young: I am not a member of my party's administrative council, so I am not included in that. On the grounds of expense I do not see how Proportional Representation could be more expensive, and as for the difficulties in voting I cannot understand that either. A great many people spend their spare time today in doing football coupons. Those who can do that can easily master a voting paper. We are told that the system would create innumerable parties in the House. There are 10 parties here now. It has not done so in other parts of the world and I do not see why it should do so here. I would like to pass from the different kinds of representation to the question of redistribution, which will bring surprises and create difficulties for us all. I am in favour of redistribution, but those who have safe seats now will find them not so safe, and those whose seats are not so safe now will find they are hopeless. No arrangement can guarantee that any seat will be safe. May I give an experience from my own constituency? Before 1918 a Conservative and Labour Member, in turn, came to this House, but with very small majorities. Redistribution took 5,000 miners out of the constituency. I was told that every house was a committee room for the Labour candidate. It was a coupon election, yet in spite of the 5,000 miners taken out and the fact that it was a coupon election, I happened to be sent to this House instead of the other candidate who had been assured that it was a "snip" for the Tory Party. Therefore, do not let any of us make up our minds that we can make sure of our own seats.
  We know that some Members are elected because of their past and present local services, some because of their benefactions, some because of their personal popularity, probably some because of their party and others because of their own personal policy, All these things will be minimised in the future. When the Bill of the President of the Board of Education goes through it will give us, I trust, an educated democracy that will stand up for its rights, that will be politically conscious, that will have wisdom in selecting its representatives and will be able properly
  1320
  to use its political power. I have taken this opportunity of expressing my views on this matter because, as I have said, I have no particular concern in this discussion about the welfare of any party. All I am concerned with is seeing equal votes of equal value from one end of the land to the other.
  Colonel Sandeman Allen: I do not wish to take up the time of the House for more than a few minutes but I have had many opportunities of talking to hundreds of men, both of the Fifth and Eighth Armies during the past few weeks, on this subject of electoral reform. These men are not particularly interested in Proportional Representation. I am reminded of one soldier who said, "I like the heads and tails system; why go on with the poker dice system? Somebody throws foul aces and somebody else throws four knaves and the joker. He 'swipes' the kitty, shouts 'Imshi' and the answer is a lemon." That seemed to be their point of view on the whole but where they were moved was on the subject of the proxy vote, about which they showed great concern. They do not want the proxy vote and I hope the Speaker's Conference will take this very carefully into consideration. These men say that they may as well kiss by proxy as vote by proxy, and I agree with them. When the major hostilities are over bomber planes will be available to take ballot papers to where soldiers are situated. Something on these lines could, I think, be organised. I want to press that very strongly. My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield (Mr. Bull) said, "One woman, two votes, is the answer." That is exactly what a great many of the soldiery are feeling. The difficulties I have mentioned can be overcome, I think, and should be studied carefully with a view to overcoming them, particularly the difficulty about the proxy vote.
  Mr. Loverseed: I rise on this occasion because I feel that certain Members of this House and thousands of people outside, do not realise the full seriousness of this Debate, for which the Government—and I am grateful—have allowed two days. I was always taught that the fundamental concept of democracy was the right of the people to govern themselves through their representatives in this House. The present composition of this House is, itself, a

  1321
  denial of that principle of democracy. Apart from the methods of the last Election, when certain misrepresentations were admittedly made, the present Government are enjoying a majority of 235 seats where they should have, on the votes of the people, enjoyed a majority of only 41 seats. Nor was that confined to the last Election. Ever since the last Armistice—when the Coalition Government of 1918 had a majority of 347, instead of the majority of 75 which they should have had—Governments have been elected on much larger majorities than they would have enjoyed had the true wishes of the people been known.
  The seriousness of the effects of this cannot be over-estimated. It has led Governments to pursue blindly policies which were leading us to disaster against the wishes of the British people. Secure in the knowledge that they could not be defeated in this House they have pursued such policies and have treated with contempt such opposition as has been raised from this side of the House. Had the people of this country been represented according to the way they would have been represented by Proportional Representation then many of the disastrous policies of the past would have been modified, if not actually reversed. The Prime Minister stated in a recent Debate that he looked forward to the time when Parliament could be refreshed by contact with the electorate. Many of us are looking forward to that time, and I would only add that that refreshment should take place in accordance with the true wishes of the electorate. I cannot think that a House which was really representative of the British people would for one moment have tolerated such things as the betrayal of Abyssinia, the sabotage of the League of Nations, the betrayal of democracy in Spain, the German occupation of the Rhineland, German re-armament, or the appeasement of any Fascist or semi-Fascist who raised his head in the world. In fact, I believe this war would have been avoided had we had Proportional Representation 15 years ago. [Laughter.]
  Hon. Members may laugh, but I am quite certain that had we had the wishes of the people represented here, then those things which so obviously were leading to war would never have been tolerated for one moment, and the rise of Fascism would have been stifled years ago. In
  1322
  the years before this war the Prime Minister himself had been warning this House constantly of the dangers into which we were running in which he was supported by certain hon. Members from the other side. I submit that had the majority been 41 instead of 235, then the Prime Minister would have brought about the overthrow of the last shocking Government in this country long before, and would have averted many of the catastrophes we suffered at the beginning of this war. Even now I feel that if this House were truly representative, we—the British people—would insist through our representatives here, and would insist with success, on the far better treatment of our men and women in the Forces to-day, who are facing such terrible risks and sacrifices. I feel the people would have insisted that the disabled men receive fairer and better pensions, that our old people receive better treatment, and that the Beveridge Report be implemented, or steps taken to see that that was done.
  Looking at this from another standpoint, I have always been taught that all votes in this country were of equal value, that the vote of a farm worker in, say, the Eddisbury constituency was of the same value as a vote of the farmer or as a vote of the noble lord who owns that farmer's land. But the record of the past, under the existing electoral system, disproves that time and time again. In 1918 13,000 votes were necessary to elect a Coalition candidate. No less than 51,000 votes were necessary to elect a non-Coalition candidate. In other words one Coalition vote was worth four other votes. That has happened in every election since the last war except the 1923 election where, by some fluke or by some freak circumstance, things worked out approximately right. But we cannot guarantee that will happen again within the next thousand years.
  Mr. Quibell: You need not worry then.
  Mr. Loverseed: The reform of this out-of-date electoral machinery is obviously necessary, and I welcome the setting up of the Conference to examine these proposals. I feel that Proportional Representation is the only system which gives a fair reflection of the views of this nation. At the same time, however, I would not for one moment support a system which took power away from the people of a constituency

  1323
  and placed it in the hands of a party caucus. I feel that already the parties and the Whips hold, if anything, too much power. Members of this House are primarily representatives of the people in constituencies, and not necessarily of parties. At the same time I would not support a system of electoral reform which encouraged the growth of splinter parties and made for unstable Governments. The cases I have cited and, in fact, the record of the past two years, show that it is not the small parties but the major parties in this country which have suffered as a result of the defects in our electoral machinery of the past and in order to get Proportional Re-presentation for these major parties I feel that Proportional Representation should, be brought into being. Of the various types of Proportional Representation, I feel that the single transferable vote meets the first objection I raised, and the experience of Eire over the last few years shows that splinter parties are not likely to crop up.
  Mr. Alexander Walkden: May I interrupt my hon. Friend? In Eire at the last election, held recently under Proportional Representation, a new party was created—a farmers' party—of 17 members to begin with. Quite a big splinter.
  Mr. Loverseed: As the hon. Member has pointed out, a party can come along and claim 17 members as having gained a fair proportion of the votes, and I feel they are entitled to that, and that is not exactly what would be known as a splinter party. The hon. Member for South Bradford (Sir H. Holdsworth) raised one point which I feel I must deal with. He said that a minister of religion had written a pamphlet in which he said that true democracy could only be represented through one party. The hon. Member also stated that this minister addressed a Common Wealth meeting. I would point out in this respect that Common Wealth branches frequently invite speakers of other parties to address them, and at that particular meeting the gentleman who addressed them was a well known member of the Communist party. We have had a personal assurance from the hon. Member for South Bradford that he had no intention of implying that the Common Wealth Party shares the single party view of the Communist Party of Great Britain.
  Sir H. Holdsworth: I would like to say that I had not the slightest intention of saying that this man was a member of the Common Wealth Party. What happened in Bradford was that when invitations to this meeting of the Common Wealth Party were sent out, that particular person was included in the invitation to the meeting, and it is quite true that he did address a Common Wealth meeting. I do not think I said anything more. I accept the statement made by the hon. Member that he does not act in the interests of a single party, although I think there is a relation between the Common Wealth and the Communist Parties.
  Mr. Loverseed: I am grateful to the hon. Member for bringing up that point. I thought I made it perfectly clear that I took the view that he had informed us that he had no intention of connecting the speaker in any way with the Common Wealth Party.
  With regard to the redistribution of seats, I feel that the simplest way of doing this would be to carry on the redistribution and the grouping of seats by Proportional Representation simultaneously. That would be much the simplest way of bringing it about. I hope we shall have Proportional Representation and, as it is obvious that we shall make certain mistakes in the first instance, I hope the machinery will be left elastic so that we may sort out those difficulties as they arise. There is one point I feel it is only right to raise at this time, and I do this with very great respect. The party which I represent believes that constituents in every constituency of this country should be adequately represented. We do not wish at any time to oppose the Speaker of this House of Commons; in fact, we hope that he will continue to preside over us for many years to come. But I feel that while electoral reform is being discussed, consideration should be given to the possibility of creating a Speaker's constituency—if you like, a St. Stephen's constituency—for which the Speaker of the House shall sit and, on taking office, he shall vacate the constituency for which he sat previously. That is fair because, in our opinion, it is not right that thousands of constituents in any constituency of this country shall be without

  1325
  representation. I say this with very great respect, in which spirit I hope it will be accepted.
  I am very glad that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for West Birkenhead (Colonel Sandeman Allen) raised the question of the men in the Forces. I raised this point during a previous Debate, and received no answer at that time. I am most anxious that every man and woman in the Forces, whether he or she be here or overseas, shall have the opportunity of voting. I am not sure that they have been made aware of their rights in this respect, or of the machinery for registering as absent voters. I suggested once before in this House that the onus of getting these people on the register should be placed in the hands of commanding officers and not left to the men themselves. I would like to press that again, and to support my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion that their ballot papers shall be flown out to them and that they shall all have the opportunity of recording their vote. In conclusion, I can only remind hon. Members that there is a world outside this House which is at present largely gagged or muzzled, but its voice will become more insistent as victory and the prospect of peace draw nearer. If we fail to provide effective machinery for giving true expression to that voice, then we shall invite the inevitable catastrophe which must follow our neglect.
  Flight-Lieutenant Raikes: It is customary to start a speech by saying "I do not propose to follow the previous speaker". I do, however, propose to deal for a little with the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. Loverseed) who took the view that Proportional Representation would have great advantages because, if we had had it hitherto, very few of the trials that came upon us in recent years would have appeared. He spoke with some satisfaction of a Government majority of 41. I think that none of us, to whatever party we belong, could wish for anything worse during any period of crisis than to have a Government with so small a majority that it might, at any moment, by party manoeuvre be forced to make compromise decisions out of weakness. In fact, my hon. Friend laid his finger upon what would be the real disadvantage of Proportional Representation, that time after time you would have
  1326
  Governments with small majorities nervous of doing anything with the threat of a General Election at any moment hanging over their heads, and a General Election which would simply mean very much the same people being returned with about the same majority. My hon. Friend in one of his more oratorial flourishes, fell into an electoral error. He observed that he wanted to see every farm worker with a vote counting for as much as that of the noble lord who happened to employ him. He apparently forgot that the only people who have not got votes for Parliament are Members of the House of Lords, so I advise him to think a little before that little flourish is produced again.
  Mr. Loverseed: I was wrong in referring to the Noble Lord but the observation applies to all landlords, most of whom have votes.
  Flight-Lieutenant Raikes: Yes, I am sure it does but I am rather a stickler for accuracy.
  Mr. Silverman: Why not deal with the point?
  Flight-Lieutenant Raikes: For the very excellent reason that I propose, if I am permitted by the hon. Member, to develop my own speech in my own way. Proportional Representation is being dealt with on the ground that it has succeeded fairly well in a number of countries, but there is one point which I think has not been made during the Debate. You have had in Scandinavia, Belgium, Holland and elsewhere a fairly stable form of government under Proportional Representation but what sort of government have you had? In practically every country that has adopted it, there have been rather mild, gentle coalitions, moving slowly with the times and always saving on armaments. These countries could play no part in the League of Nations because they had not armaments behind them and, from the point of view of dealing with an invader, they were utterly and completely useless in the conditions in which they were. If we were to have in this country a long period of perpetual mild, compromising coalitions, with no real vigour behind them the same might occur here. I would sooner see a working majority of the Opposition in the House of Commons any

  1327
  day than see the sort of up and down Governments with very small majorities which make for indecisive policies.
  Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Is the hon. and gallant Member really attributing to Proportional Representation, the absence of defences in certain European countries? Would he apply that to America and other countries where there is a shortage of armaments? Where does it lead to?
  Flight-Lieutenant Raikes: I am merely pointing out that the fact remains, that the number of small countries which have been held up, time and time again, in these Debates, as perfect examples of how Proportional Representation works were, in point of fact, the sort of small countries which were deficient in armaments, and it seems to me not unnatural to consider that that perpetual form of rather mild coalition was one of the elements which led to their weakness. Looking to the future I believe that the two party form of Government which has been our historic system apart from a few oddments, is best for the nation. If, as has been suggested, an ungodly combination were formed between the Labour and Conservative Parties, the Liberal Party would have a much better chance of being returned to power than ever they would have under Proportional Representation, for any such coalition would be kicked out by the country. That is one of the few things which I could prophesy with complete confidence. As the hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) pointed out yesterday, in university elections you have more spoilt ballot papers than anywhere else, and, oddly enough, universities are the only places in this country where Proportional Representation is adopted. Generally, the average elector in a university election should, at any rate, know how to read and write. [Interruption.] University graduates do a good many odd things. I disagree with the Leader of the Opposition on this point. The number of university Members returned is far too few really to affect Parliamentary representation, one way or the other. I believe they add a certain variety and spice to the House, and I am not at all sure that they are the type of Member who would be as good on the platform as in the House.
  Mr. Riley: Is there any reason why they should have two votes, one as ordinary citizens and one as university graduates?
  Flight-Lieutenant Raikes: Supposing you had one vote for everybody, and if you used your university vote, you could not use any other vote, the inevitable result would be that the ordinary man would, in point of fact, vote in his own locality, your university representative being returned by a microscopic vote. If you are to maintain your universities, it is better that there should be a reasonable number of votes cast for the Members.
  I should like to make a constructive suggestion to the Speaker's Conference in regard to election expenses. We are not going to deal with election expenses by playing about and reducing by a penny the permitted amount to be spent per elector in county and borough seats. It is not big enough to touch the question of the comparatively young man who wants to enter political life. I think, if a man is to pull his full weight in Parliament, he should enter, for the first time, between the ages of about 30 and 45. If he is younger than that, he has no knowledge of the world, and although some who are over that age have been a great success it is late to come in for the first time. You would have these men, probably married, with young families, at an age when they have not saved very much money, suddenly called upon to find £1,000 or more to fight an election, with the knowledge that there may be another in, perhaps, a couple of years, or else they will have to be paid for by some big vested interest—I do not care whether it is a trade union or an employers' association. A great many men cannot and will not stand for Parliament under such conditions. Simply to cut down a little the present limit in boroughs and counties does not really meet the case at all. I have 100,000 electors in my constituency. Roughly speaking, I am allowed under the present system to spend £2,500. I spent £800 at the last election, and I think I should have been a fool to spend more. It would not make any difference to myself or anyone else contesting my seat if, by a small drop in the amount per elector, the maximum was reduced from £2,500 to £2,000, or even £1,000, because the average constituency election under present conditions generally

  1329
  costs somewhere between £600 and £1,000 at least.
  I understand that the object of the scheme is to stick to single-member constituencies and it is suggested we should take a mean of about 50,000 electors per constituency with a bit off for widely scattered country districts. I think you might very well, instead of basing the cost of an election purely upon the number of electors at fivepence or sixpence a head, bear in mind that it is quite as expensive, I should imagine, to contest an enormous district like Sutherland with only 20,000 or 30,000 electors as it would be to contest a more densely populated county seat which is not nearly so scattered. I think the Conference should consider definitely laying down a pretty low limit for what can be spent on elections, slightly more in counties than in boroughs, but not based on a mathematical basis of per capita calculation. A county with 50,000 electors should not have a lower maximum than a county with, say, 40,000 or 30,000 electors. I suggest, for example, a maximum expenditure of £800 for counties or £600 for boroughs. I merely, quote those as possible figures.
  Here is my revolutionary suggestion which I do not suppose anyone will accept. I should be inclined to think that, if you want good candidates, you will have to come down to the lowest level at which an election can be fought, I do not mean politically but financially, and that the State might pay half the election expenses of any candidate who does not forfeit his deposit. A man who cannot find £1,000 or £800 may be able to find some £300, if he is keen on the job, without becoming hopelessly indebted to some big organisation outside. If you do that, I believe you will improve the type of Member and you will get younger men in all parties coming to the House. I believe the character of our Members is more important to the future of the country than their political complexion and I want to see young men in all parties, who are not of necessity rich but are keen, have a fair opportunity to come in without burdening with debt their wives and families for the rest of their lives.
  Mr. Gallacher: I am very pleased that the Speaker's Conference is to take place and I was very pleased when the Home Secretary informed us
  1330
  that every party in the House would be represented on it. I understood what he meant when he looked at me and added "wherever practicable." I do not know how much effect his words will have on you, Sir, but my party is one of the biggest in the country from the point of view of individual membership and financial and other support from the masses of the people, and should be represented on the Conference. I should like to say—as I do not think anyone will say it—that I have had a lot of experience of committees, and the sorting out all kinds of difficult problems, and I am certain that if you, Sir, decide to invite me, I shall be of very great assistance to you. So much for that.
  The next thing is that the Home Secretary, in presenting this question of the Speaker's Conference, emphasised the wrong subject. He dealt with redistribution as the most important question with which the Conference would have to deal. He mentioned the difficulties that would arise and said how pleased he was to throw the burden of solving them on to anyone other than himself and his Department. He drew our attention, for instance, to a country area where a factory had been built for war purposes with 20,000 employees, and asked what was to happen to those who were housed about the factory. He said that that was one of the problems which the Speaker's Conference will have to deal with. I heard one Member say that the Home Secretary made a statesmanlike speech. That is possible because he is an expert at dealing with trifles and in dodging the big things.
  How is it possible for the Home Secretary to present as the problem an industry in some country district with 20,000 employees in view of the fact that the House has discussed time and again the question of the redistribution of industries? That is the big problem; it is not that of some small industry which has been erected in a country district. One of the most urgent questions before the Government is that of the location of industries, whether they are to be concentrated as they have been in one or two areas, or whether the big monopolies are to be broken up so that other parts of the country can have a share of factories and employment. How is it possible for the Speaker's Conference to decide on redistribution

  1331
  unless they know what the Government's plans are in connection with the location of industries? Are we to get a situation in which the Government hope that the Conference will decide on a scheme of redistribution and then they will be able to say, "We cannot discuss the location of industries now"? Or are we to have a scheme of redistribution before we decide on the location of industries, so that we should have to have another Speaker's Conference to make a new redistribution after we decide on the location of industry? The Conference cannot tackle redistribution in any serious way unless we have the Government's plans for reconstruction after the war, with particular reference to the location of industry.
  The big question is who is to vote and how they will vote, and one thing which the Conference should consider is the age of voting. Lads of 18 are being conscripted to work and to defend the country. Are they to get a vote at 18? The Speaker's Conference must decide that. If my life depended on it, I would rather place myself on the mercy of these lads of 18 than on any of the ancient and anything but venerable objects on the other side of the House. How are they to vote? An amazing speech was made yesterday by the hon. Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn). He used to parade himself throughout Scotland as an authority on Marxism. He could write a fine thesis on how he has degenerated from pseudo-Marxism to real Conservatism. At all casts, he says, we must preserve things as they are. That was the whole theme of his argument. If we have a change, he says, anything can happen. I would point out that the Labour movement was built up on urging on the masses of the people the need for change. The Labour movement was going to force Liberals and Tories into one camp and then by a frontal attack sweep the capitalist system, the capitalist class and the capitalist parties out of existence. Now, says the hon. Member, preserve things as they are and do not let us have any change. He does not put a question on moral grounds like the Common Wealth Member did. The leader of Common Wealth had an awful job the other day explaining the morality of the warriors.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Charles Williams): The hon. Member is going rather too much into party questions. We might get back a little more on to election questions.
  Mr. Gallacher: I just got into a side issue in view of the representative of Common Wealth being desirous of dissociating Common Wealth from the Communists. I want to make it clear that he need have no fear of the Communists in any way trying to follow the high moral sentiments of Common Wealth, which so easily are turned into an alliance of expediency. They can still make their alliance with the non-warriors in front, if they so desire. The hon. Member for East Stirling never suggested that the present method was a better or fairer method than the single transferable vote. He never took into account the rightness or wrongness from the point of view of representation. The only thing he could think of was that there would be splinter parties formed at the expense of the Labour Party; the Conservative Party would remain constant and the bad effect would be felt by the Labour Party. Obviously he has forgotten anything he ever knew about politics or Marxist dialectics if he can make such a suggestion as that.
  If we had the position politically as it existed in 1939 or 1935 and had Proportional Representation, the Labour Party would have a far bigger representation and the Conservative Party a far smaller one. Since 1935, and particularly since 1939, there has been a terrific political development in this country. Look at the millions of new people, many of them women who have been brought into industry. What are they thinking about and discussing? Are they discussing Conservatism? No, they are miles ahead of the people on the other side, the people who cheered the last Prime Minister and stood on their feet and hooted the present Prime Minister out of the House. If there is an election on the basis of Proportional Representation I am positive, judging from the political development that has taken place in this country, that the Labour Party would have a substantial majority. Any splinters would be splinters from the Conservative Party. The Common Wealth is a splinter from the Conservative Party playing up to the middle class and the weakness of the Labour Party. The Labour Party has not

  1333
  attracted the middle class because of the weakness of its policy, and Common Wealth has taken advantage of this.
  Mr. Hugh Lawson: Has the hon. Gentleman any knowledge of how the votes were cast in the recent by-election at Skipton? I can assure him that the bulk of the votes for me were Labour votes.
  Mr. Gallacher: But the hon. Member himself, when speaking the other day, said that the decisive factor was the farmers' votes in view of their dissatisfaction with the Government. With Proportional Representation the whole tendency will be to split sections away from the Conservative Party, not from the strongly organised working-class movement. If there were any tendency to weakness in the labour movement it would not be because of Proportional Representation. It would arise from the fact that the leadership of the Labour movement and the movement as a whole were not prosecuting strongly enough the policy for which the party has always stood. That is the only thing that will hinder the growth of the Labour Party. With Proportional Representation the party could have a majority at the next election. I have not the faintest doubt about that from whit I know of the working class in both urban and rural centres. Let the Labour movement seriously consider this and go for the best method of getting the feelings and opinions of the masses of the people expressed. I am certain that if they go for the best method they will see that the single transferable vote will provide a better opportunity for that.
  The Speaker's Conference should finish for ever the university and business man's vote. They are anomalies which represent the past, and they should be dead and buried with the past. I agree with those who have taken up the question of cars and expenses. Those sources of minor corruption should be eliminated and rules and regulations laid down for regulating them. I think that the £150 deposit should be abolished. We should not reduce an election to the position of a sheriff's court imposing a penalty on those who happen to be insufficiently strong to get a certain number of votes. We should have, instead of a deposit, 150 signatures to the nomination paper. That number would represent a considerable vote in support of a candidate, and they would guarantee that the candidate actually
  1334
  represented a basis of feeling in a constituency. The Speaker's Conference would be well advised to overhaul the electoral system and to try for the first time a new method of getting the best and the most effective representation of the will of the people.
  Colonel Arthur Evans: Yesterday and to-day we have heard the views of representatives of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. As the first Member for a Welsh constituency to have the good fortune to catch your eye, Sir, I welcome the opportunity of congratulating my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on the fair and impartial manner in which he has presented the Motion. In spite of what the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) has said, it is inconceivable that any Member would oppose such a Motion in the Lobby. Indeed, it is only a war of a magnitude hitherto unknown in history which could have prevented the Motion being presented years ago.
  When the Motion has been accepted by the House, and the consequent machinery has been put into motion, it will be a further step towards ordered and fair Parliamentary representation. The first step, of course, has already been taken. The House has passed the Parliamentary Elections and Meetings Act which will correct the absurd position which exists to-day up and down the country in regard to the franchise. At the moment it is fantastic, I think, for this House to know that in the birthplace of the Mother of Parliaments, no person under 30 has ever voted at a General Election and no person under 26 years of age has voted at a by-election.
  The report of the Committee on Electoral Machinery, commonly known as the Vivian Committee, disclosed conditions of inequality in the representative status of Members which no true and sincere supporter of a Parliamentary form of government could possibly defend. The Vivian Committee expounded the following principles; the sense of which, I gather from the speech of the Home Secretary has, for practical purposes, been incorporated in the terms of reference which are to be submitted to Mr. Speaker's Conference. The Vivian Committee used the following words:

  "1. Equal representative status of Members as a basis of representative government.

  2. The necessity for the fixing of a quota for the determination of areas to which seats

  1335
  should be assigned in their equal content of persons to be represented."

  To take first, the question of quotas, I gather that the figure of 54,000 or 55,000 electors per Member has been mentioned. I feel sure that hon. Members will share the view that this figure is about the limit of the load which a Member of Parliament can usually carry in times of peace and discharge his duties to his constituents with that full efficiency he would like. I gather, too, that if redistribution took place on those lines, it would only result in the membership of this House being increased by approximately 15 to 20 Members. In expressing that view, I do hope I carry with me the right hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) and the hon. Members for North Southwark (Mr. Isaacs) and West Bermondsey (Dr. Salter) because in 1941 they only had an estimated electorate of under 18,000. At least, I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Sir R. Blair) and the hon. Gentleman who represents Rom-ford (Mr. J. Parker) will agree as they both had an estimated electorate of between 210,000 and 220,000—an impossible task, even for their acknowledged abilities.
  Of course, in Wales the position is a little different. We do not go in for the ultra big or the ultra small constituencies. As the House is aware we are not so extreme in the Principality. There are only four seats out of the 36, which are over 1,000 electors or so, in excess of what, undoubtedly, will be a normal constituency. Flintshire, for instance, has over 82,000 electors, Llanelly (Carmarthenshire) over 70,000; Neath in Glamorganshire over 65,000 and Llandaff and Barry over 82,000. The rest of the county and boroughs seats in the Principality are of a moderate and normal size, except Merionethshire, which only has under 30,000 electors. I was very interested yesterday in the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) because I assumed from what he said that he was speaking officially on behalf of the Labour Party, and he seemed to me to express some doubt as to whether it would be possible either to carry out partial or complete redistribution before a general election takes place. These doubts affirmed by the representatives of
  1336
  his Party who signed the Minority Report of the Vivian Committee. These representatives set down reservations which appeared to me to apply to any redistribution now or in the future. They objected to a redistribution now on the grounds which the remainder of the Committee did not consider convincing to either a full or a partial redistribution, notwithstanding the undoubted maldistribution disclosed in the report. Personally, I want to say I found myself in agreement with the majority of the Committee and I am surprised to find members of the Labour Party supporting a system which favours the rich, and sometimes the incompetent, candidate.
  I hope Mr. Speaker's Conference will accept the recommendation of His Majesty's Government to set up a Boundary Commission of a permanent character with permanent functions because this would allow adjustment to be made automatically at given periods without the Government of the day having to come to the House from time to time and go through the machinery of Debate, conferences and legislation. Moreover, it will bring our legislation and practice into line, now that we have passed the Elections and Meetings Act. I hope that subject always to a measure of discretion the principle of coterminous boundaries, for Parliamentary and local government constituencies, will be adopted as I feel it would make for the better representation by the Member of Parliament. Take the city of Cardiff, for instance. It is hard to justify, I think at the moment, certain portions of adjoining county constituencies being included in the city's Parliamentary divisions. Whether this would benefit the sitting Conservative Members I am far from convinced, but from the view of community interest, and the more general interest of Cardiff itself, especially when it will, I hope, be the seat of the Welsh Office to be, there can be no doubt that a change of Parliamentary boundaries would be in the public interest.
  The object, as I see it, is to make the political interest of areas as uniform and compact as possible. In general, too, I think it would be conceded that a county division, owing to the difficulties a "Knight of the Shire" has in covering wide distances, needs special consideration. We have listened to a lot of arguments

  1337
  to-day on the question of Proportional Representation, proposals largely put forward by members of the Liberal Parties and supported in one or two isolated instances by the British Common Wealth Party and a Member who spoke from the Front Bench of the Labour Party.
  It is interesting to note that in the last General Election in Wales in 1935 Liberals of all parties, groups and pockets, including the Ernest Brown Liberal Nationals, polled over 196,000 votes in the Principality with the result that they returned 10 Members to this House. On the other hand, the Conservative Party polled 204,000 votes and returned only six Members. In other words, we polled 8,000 more votes than the Liberals and returned four less members. I only make this reference to observe that, in spite of that unfortunate experience, we are still opposed to Proportional Representation. We take the view that there is sufficient log-rolling as it is, without our 36 members being divided into still smaller groups and smaller pockets with the resultant bargaining and back-scratching which would have to take place whenever the Parliamentary representatives of Wales were anxious to present a united front in the interests of their people.
  I have always taken the view that the success of our Parliamentary system has been in a large measure due to the party system—nothing in this world being perfect. From the experience of groups in the French Chambre des Deputies I shudder to think what might happen in this country, if we were faced with a similar situation. What this country requires for the next 25 years at least is a strong Government, with a strong majority behind it. Minority governments, dependent on the good will of a number of small parties or groups, would not get our people through the troubles which this country will have to face in the future and, in my view, Proportional Representation might very well bring that state of affairs about. Proportional Representation is another device to revive a system that is inefficient and antiquated. It faces none of the vital problems of political and social organisation, and its adoption would prolong an illusion that everything for the best is being done. I, personally, do not like Proportional Representation even in universities and I hope when universities
  1338
  come under review at the Conference that the aspect of their election will also be examined. I do venture to express the hope, however, that university representation will not be abolished in this House. From time to time, the universities do produce some very interesting and rare specimens, and now that the activities of universities are widening, I hope their representation in this House will long continue. Quite frankly, I firmly believe that the rarefied atmosphere which is cast on our Debates in this House and on the problems in our industries by the learned and hon. Gentlemen who hailed from Aberystwyth, Oxford and Cambridge and other distant parts is very beneficial to the body politic.
  I want to say a word or two about expenses. I think that in a large measure we ourselves are to blame for the very high expenses of elections. I feel that candidates of all political parties, and particularly of my own, are involved in high expenditure at the time of election—not from the point of view of necessity—but from the point of view of custom. There are a lot of people one finds associated with oneself at election times, who are "on the make" and who look upon such times as a unique opportunity to "make a quid or two on the side"—as a right. They say, "We are not spending the same amount of money as our opponents in this particular ward. Why do we not"—we, mark you—"spend more?" They forget they are spending nothing and only increasing the candidate's expenditure, and I feel there is no necessity to expend even the amount of money which is allowed under the law as it exists to-day. I well remember in 1931, at the time of the financial crisis, I cut my election expenditure down by two-thirds and retained my seat, in fact, increasing my majority. If we want to face the expense of plastering our constituencies with very flattering and untrue photographs in the form of posters, at the cost of hundreds of pounds, it is no good coming to this House and complaining. I hope that your Conference, Mr. Speaker, when it comes to sit, will examine this all important question of expenses, because in every quarter of the House we are anxious for the gates to be as wide open as possible to talented and experienced young men who would make a valuable contribution in this House, irrespective of financial standing.

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  There are many ways in which expenses can be cut down, some have already been suggested in the course of the Debate, and they include distribution of the poll cards by the authorities instead of by the candidates. I have always followed the practice mentioned by other hon. Members and only used the free postage which has been placed at my disposal. I have never indulged in the luxury of an extra paid postage, as one can do. In other ways expenditure could be cut down. If agents were not faced with the necessity of hiring halls and including the cost in their election expenses it would go some way towards reducing expenditure. Perhaps halls might be provided by the local authorities at the public cost.
  In conclusion, please allow me to express the hope that it will be possible for an interim report on questions of redistribution of seats to be submitted to the Government with all possible speed so as to ensure that the new Measure is ready before a General Election takes place. We have all expressed our true belief in a democratic form of Government. Let us therefore take this opportunity to prove to the world, by our unanimous acceptance of this Motion, and by the setting up of your Conference, Mr. Speaker, as well as by the passing of the subsequent legislation, that our system and practice is not only worthy of the Mother of Parliaments but from now on will always be up-to-date and in step with changing conditions.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: I do not propose to follow or to reiterate what has already been said in the course of the Debate. I have a profound feeling that there is a great deal of unreality associated with the Debate. What is the subject matter of it? The principal matter that concerns most Members of this House is redistribution, and the alleged reasons for redistribution of seats. It throws a very interesting light on the anarchy of our political and economic life in these islands. It is agreed that the Conference over which you have consented to preside, Mr. Speaker, is being brought into being because of the great shiftings and movements that have taken place in our population. For a few minutes I want to examine the causes of those movements, and I must say, with all respect, that merely dabbling with our political system, without paying regard to the economic and
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  industrial life of our people, and that attempting to establish an improved political organisation and system on those shifting sands, will lead us nowhere and can only mislead the people of this country.
  Regarding this talk about the redistribution of seats, why has the population of our country shifted and shifted so substantially during the last quarter of a century? It has been uncontrolled and it has been determined by only one thing, the enforced pursuit on the part of millions of our people of the means of subsistence, the means to live. What were these economic causes? I have had no assurance, either during this Debate or during preceding Debates on all sorts of subjects, that any kind of control will be placed upon further movements of our population. These causes which compel our people to be uprooted from their own communities and be buffeted up and down these islands are presumably not to bb touched at all. At any rate, I have seen no signs on the part of this Government that they propose seriously to tackle these causes at all.
  I repeat the question; why has this need for the redistribution of our seats been raised, what has compelled it to be raised in this Debate? The principal causes were that, during the inter-war period, 2,000 of our collieries were closed, rendering populous communities derelict; hundreds of factories and workshops were closed down, most of our shipbuilding yards abandoned, and hundreds of thousands of acres of food-producing land abandoned, as the means of livelihood, of subsistence, of our people were taken away from them. And we are still talking about stabilising and improving our political representation in this country on the assumption that these movements will not take place, and, that we may possibly reverse, willy-nilly, the course which events took between the two wars. I must be perfectly frank. I cannot be persuaded that the Government are sincere in facing this problem. The same causes that brought about the partial destruction of many communities in this country after the last war, will, presumably, operate after this war, and the same uprooting of hundreds of thousands of our families will be the consequence. Industries will be closed, presumably, without any consultation with this

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  Government. Up to now, the Government have refused to take measures to control industry in this country, and unless economic and industrial security is to be granted to the people of this country, we can talk until Doomsday about redistributing the Parliamentary seats of this country. My own small county lost 500,000 men, women and children between the two wars, and the Government were indifferent, or afraid to obtrude upon the inviolability of the anarchists who were responsible for plunging millions of our own people into poverty between the two wars. What was the result of that? Most of our local government services were hamstrung. As I said, hundreds of thousands of our people were plunged into poverty. Our medical services could not cope with the work confronting them.
  Mr. Speaker: That is not the subject we are now debating.
  Mr. Davies: My point is that this Conference, I say this with profound respect, Mr. Speaker, must be abortive, unless the basic conditions that control life in this country and control the movements of our people are first dealt with.
  Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Member did not go further, it would be all right, but to go on to describe each one of those basic conditions in detail, would lead the Debate on to subjects which are quite irrelevant to that now under discussion.
  Mr. Davies: If I get an opportunity I shall vote against the Motion on the Order Paper, and I have a feeling as a humble Member of this House, I am entitled to give my reasons as to why I should vote against it. I am not satisfied that the Government are sincere in this matter. I, like many people in the country, am getting tired of the strenuous ineptitude of the Government. I do not wish, in any way, to cut across your Ruling, Mr. Speaker. I have always shown at least a desire to recognise it, but I must say I have a feeling that you, Sir, with all the kindness and concern you have ever shown, not only to this House but to the people of this country, are being placed at an impossible disadvantage. No political structure satisfactory to the people of this country can be reared upon the shifting sands of private ownership. Unless control of industry and control over the location of the industries of this country can
  1342
  be achieved, I am of the opinion that the Government are perpetrating a farce, adding to the injuries that other Governments of the kind have perpetrated at the expense of our people in the past. If I get an opportunity of protesting against the sham which is being perpetrated I shall do so. It is a sham unless the Government can be forced to make up their mind to tackle the basic conditions of life for our own people, to guarantee that those basic conditions shall be provided for them in the communities wherein they dwell at present.
  Unless that be done I am confident of one thing, and this confidence brings me no pleasure—that within five years of this war Coming to an end, there will be another clamour for redistributing seats. Life cannot be organised unless the Government are determined to organise it, and we shall again suffer from the consequences of the anarchy which destroyed so much of the productive forces of this country and so many of our industries and plunged so many of our own people into poverty, and drove them away from their homes, after the last war. That is just what the Government are proferring to us now. They are presenting us with shams, and they are not prepared to get down to the hard basic facts of human existence in these islands of ours.
  Mr. Hewlett: I am not going to attempt to follow the last speaker, but I want to say that I was most impressed with the speech of the Home Secretary yesterday. I entirely agree with him on the four headings under which he suggested that electoral reform might be achieved. I listened with attention to the excellent and well-reasoned speech of the hon. Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams), and I agreed with him generally, although I consider he did not pay sufficient attention to anomalies in the Provinces; he concentrated on the anomalies in London and the Home Counties. I am strongly in favour of redistribution. If it is felt that general redistribution cannot take place at present, I consider that partial redistribution is necessary to take care of some of the more serious anomalies.
  I am going to bring to the notice of hon. Members one of the most outstanding anomalies. It occurs in the constituency in which I reside. Altrincham, with an electorate of 119,290, embraces also

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  Wythenshaw, which is a satellite town of Manchester, and which had 20,572 voters under the Local Elections and Register of Electors (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1939. It has been decided by the Manchester City Council that the first houses to be built shall be on the Wythenshaw estate, and that 11,000 houses shall be built there. Assuming two voters to each house, this will mean an additional 22,000 voters, bringing the number in Wythenshaw to over 42,000. These extra 22,000 will increase the Parliamentary electorate of Altrincham by approximately a similar number. Here is an outstanding anomaly. The 42,000 voters will be, for municipal purposes, voters in the City of Manchester, but, under present conditions, they will continue to be in the Parliamentary borough of Altrincham, which is in the county of Cheshire. I maintain that municipal voters in the City of Manchester should be Parliamentary voters in the city of Manchester also, and not Parliamentary voters in another city which is in a different county. I want to refer to the question of free postages. I think that there should be one free postage, as at present. I agree with the right hon. Member for Chorley (Sir D. Hacking) that the State should assume the obligation, through the returning officer, of sending the elector his polling card and that it should be despatched by the returning officer or his deputy within a stipulated period prior to the election date. It should then be made illegal for any candidate to send a voter a polling card. This would effect a general reduction in expense and stop duplication. I am in favour of all schools which receive grants from public funds and all elementary schools available under the present law being placed at the disposal of candidates for public meetings, without any charge of any description. I am strongly in favour of the continuance of the business vote.
  It will hardly be possible to abolish the business vote without a general redistribution. The effect on the small traders of abolishing the business vote would be unfortunate, having regard to the undertakings which have been given in connection with post-war reconstruction. The reasons which govern the exception generally made for the City of London, as in the Labour Govetnment's Bill of 1931,
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  apply equally to the business electorates of the other large boroughs. With the exception of the City of London, which has 33,542 business voters and two Members, the constituency that I represent has the largest number of business voters in the country, 14,244, out of a total electorate of 44,959. I ask my Labour friends why should they suggest that the City of London should continue with the business vote and not allow the same consideration to Manchester (Exchange) and other constituencies? We in the North maintain that our constituents are entitled to the same consideration as those of the City of London. I am not arguing for what is termed big business, as the big business houses, the insurance companies, the banks and other such organisations are invariably limited liability companies, and therefore are not entitled to votes.
  The people I am speaking for are the small traders and others who pay rates and taxes in my constituency and therefore in my opinion are fully entitled to a continuance of the business vote. In the case of the City of London reference was made to its historical traditions, but Manchester (Exchange) has also historical traditions. It was at one time known as-Manchester (North West Division), and has in the past been represented by such outstanding personalities as the late Mr. Bonar Law, the late Sir William Joynson-Hicks and our present Prime Minister, all of whom have made their contributions to history and tradition and have represented the very heart of the business and commercial interests of the City of Manchester. I wonder whether any other constituency can boast that it has had two Prime Ministers and one Home Secretary to represent it in recent times.
  Mr. Driberg: Although Proportional Representation and redistribution and election expenses are all extremely important, there is one other item on the agenda for the Conference which has been hardly touched upon, at any rate in the speeches I have heard. In an attempt to secure brevity—or shall I say, an absence of long-windedness?—I will confine myself to one aspect of this particular point. I refer to the reform of the franchise. The hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) touched very slightly in passing on the point that I want to make in a little further detail. I

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  want to suggest that the Conference should consider seriously the extension of the vote to all men and women who have reached the age of 18. I know that the first reaction of many people to this suggestion, when it is first made to them, is an instantly negative reaction: it seems too drastic, too sweeping, a reform of our franchise. But I imagine that that was also the reaction when the question of voles for women was first raised, or any of the many reforms which have in the course of centuries been made in our franchise.
  I should like to urge that it should be considered on its merits, and not simply in an emotional way. The emotional argument for it, which was put briefly by the hon. Member for West Fife, is, of course, quite obvious, and is not necessarily invalid because there is the element of emotion in it. It is simply that if you conscript young men to fight and to die for their country, and if you conscript them to go down the pits and dig coal for their country, you should allow them at the same age a reasonable exercise of their citizen rights and their votes. This emotional appeal is strongest in war-time, and it has been recognised in some of our Dominions and in other countries. Australia allows votes at 18 for the Forces overseas. New Zealand allows voles at 18 for all members of the Forces.
  Incidentally, if this is any consolation, it was the Service vote which recently saved the New Zealand Government. In the Soviet Union, the franchise at 18 is universal. In the United States, the Office of War Information has been good enough to inform me, the House Joint Resolution proposing the extension of the franchise to 18 was still under consideration by a committee of the House of Representatives on 23rd December last, and there has been no further news about it since then. If this matter is worth consideration by a Congress Committee in the United States, it might also, I suggest, be worth consideration by the Conference over which you, Sir, it is hoped, are to preside.
  If I may, with the greatest possible respect, give a passing illustration of this principle much nearer home, without going overseas at all, it will be within the recollection of hon. Members that this House recently endorsed unanimously the constitutional theory that the Heir to the Throne comes of age and enters upon full,
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  responsible maturity, at 18. It surely cannot be suggested that the children of ordinary middle-class or working-class families, or, for that matter, boys and girls who have been to public schools, are necessarily and innately more likely to be backward when they reach the age of 18 than the children of kings or commissars. At any rate, if it can be so suggested, it is a very serious reflection upon our educational system. That brings me to what is perhaps the strongest point in this argument, that such a reform as that I am advocating would tie up very conveniently with the great new educational reforms that the President of the Board of Education is now initiating. You are going to take your youths and your girls and educate them continuously, for part of the time at any rate, up to the age of 18, and you then discharge them on the world as reasonably mature citizens. Part of this scheme is to be, we are told—and many Members of this House have urged—that they are going to be given, during the years of adolescence, education in citizenship; and it seems rather a pity that there should be a gap of three years before they can exercise that citizenship after having been initiated into it at the age of 18. Moreover, with General Elections at an interval of five years or so, normally, there will be, as there has been in the past, a regrettable extra delay before many of them can exercise their vote, even when the franchise is extended to those of 21, as it is nominally now, but only nominally owing to the obsolete register. If it were extended to those of 18, the age at which most people in this country would be able, in practice, to vote would obviously be lowered also, and very beneficially.
  Many people will say that at the age of 18 a boy's mind or a girl's views are not sufficiently formed to enable them to vote sensibly and with judgment. This is a purely subjective argument. You cannot very well give statistical data on either side. But my impression is that the formative years in these matters are from 16 to 18, and that, if a boy is flippant and frivolous at the age of 18, he will probably still be flippant and frivolous at the age of 21, and if, vice versa, he is politically minded and serious and takes an intelligent interest in things at the age of 21, that process will probably have started by about the age of 18. There is really a strong case to be made, both in

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  sentiment and in logic, for this extension of the franchise, and I hope that it may find a place on the agenda and be considered by the Conference with scrupulous care and with that impartially which your chairmanship, Sir, will guarantee.
  Mr. Hutchinson: The hon. Member for the Maldon Division (Mr. Driberg) has put an attractive point to the House in an attractive way, and I am sure he will forgive me if I do not endeavour to deal with his point at any great length. The short answer seems to me to be this. The Speaker's Conference will have to deal with our electoral law for a very long time ahead. Although most of us would gladly extend the franchise to these young people who have been called upon to serve during the war, there is a question involved of much greater significance. Ought we to decide that a young person on reaching the age of 18 should be entitled to the Parliamentary franchise? That seems to be a much wider and a more serious question than the immediate question of whether young persons of that age who have served in the war should be given the vote. Before we determine that the Parliamentary franchise should be extended in this way, we ought to consider very carefully the full implications of such a fundamental change in an electoral law.
  I followed very carefully the speech made by the hon. Member for Merthyr (Mr. S. O. Davies) and the speech made by the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher). The argument which the hon. Member for Merthyr put was that, until decisions had been taken upon fundamental economic questions affecting the structure of our national life, it would be wrong for the Speaker's Conference to attempt any substantial measure or indeed, any measure at all, of redistribution. I represent a constituency with 123,000 electors. It is the biggest single Member borough in the country, and, if you take the county divisions, there are only four county divisions with a greater number of electors than that. These people are insufficiently represented at present in Parliament. The argument developed by the hon. Member for Merthyr and the hon. Member for West Fife seems to lead to this, that those persons are to go on being inadequately represented for an almost indefinite period of time, until decisions
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  have been taken upon matters which really have no direct relation to the question of Parliamentary representation at all.
  Up to a point, I agree with the hon. Member for West Fife that the immediate future will not prove to be the right time for carrying out a permanent measure of redistribution. But that does not preclude a measure of partial redistribution which can, and ought, to be carried out before the next General Election takes place, so as to afford an adequate and sufficient Parliamentary representation to those great populations which at present are not sufficiently represented in this House. I make the suggestion that the Conference should consider whether that partial redistribution might not be carried out in this way. First, you should fix an upper limit above which no constituency, so far as is possible and practicable, should be allowed to continue without some measure of readjustment. Secondly, you should fix a lower limit below which a constituency should not be allowed to enjoy continued independent existence. That, generally speaking, would produce the result that those constituencies which are so great that their people now justly corn-plain they have not sufficient representation would be given the representation which they are entitled to have, and that those constituencies which are so small that their continued independent representation amounts really to an injustice to other parts of the country should cease to have a separate existence. I found myself very much in agreement with something which was said by the hon. Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams) yesterday. I hope that, when this rearrangement of constituency boundaries takes place, the Commission will bear in mind the point which the hon. Member made—that, where a constituency has what is sometimes called a community of interest, they should not be so exact in their adjustment of boundaries as to destroy that common interest which so many constituencies at present possess.
  Even in these very large constituencies, the representation under present conditions of these great masses of population is made possible by the fact that in many cases these constituencies possess a very strong community of interest. I doubt whether it would be possible for the hon. Member for Romford (Mr. Parker) to discharge the duties which he does discharge

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  to his constituents if that was not true of his constituency, as well as mine. Perhaps that is more true in a borough than in a county constituency; but it would be a regrettable thing if the Boundary Commissioners in their search for uniformity destroyed this very valuable characteristic. That observation applies to the smallest with just the same force as to the biggest. The small constituency which has for many years enjoyed separate representation often possesses this characteristic of community of interest. I should be sorry if they ceased to enjoy a separate existence.
  Let me pass from the question of redistribution to a topic about which I think very little has been said—the question of the local government franchise. I think that the last thing that all of us desire is that local government elections should be postponed in future for any substantial period of time. I believe that the country desires to go back again to the system of elections in local government and I believe that the sooner we do it the better. It is not at present a practicable proposition, for many reasons. There are difficulties about staff, and difficulties of population and all the other matters which make local elections a very difficult thing. At the same time, I think that the public wish to go back to local elections as soon as they can. No obstacles connected with the Register ought to delay that taking place.
  Much has been said in this Debate upon the subject of Proportional Representation. I have no intention of entering into that subject. Except to say this, that I hope that the Conference will not come to the conclusion that Proportional Representation ought to be tried out first in local government. I know there are certain quarters in which the view is held that local authorities would be the proper subject for experiment in the first place. Without entering into the merits or demerits of Proportional Representation, let me say this: All the objections which have been advanced in different parts of the House to the system of Proportional Representation apply with equal force, or in some cases with greater force, to the local government franchise. The hon. Baronet shakes his head, but I can assure my right hon. Friend that the objections to Proportional Representation apply with equal force in the sphere of local government elections.
  Sir P. Harris: Does the hon. and learned Member not know that there are boroughs in London where there is no minority representation at all—some boroughs which are entirely Conservative and others entirely Labour? It is a hopeless system and I have nothing to say for it.
  Mr. Hutchinson: Proportional Representation is not going to produce any different result in local government elections, any more than it has done in university elections. I hope the Conference will not recommend that experiment. With regard to the business vote in local government elections, my hon. Friend the Member for the Exchange Division of Manchester (Mr. Hewlett) has already stated the reasons why the business vote ought to be retained. All those reasons apply with equal forces in the sphere of local government. I hope that, here again, if an alteration is made in the local government franchise, the business voter will not be excluded from his right to determine the policy of the authority, to whom he is called upon to make such substantial contribution in rates.
  In one or two quarters of the House, though not many, it has been suggested that university representation is an anomaly which should come to an end. In these days, when we attach so much importance to education, it would not be much encouragement to those who look for an advance in our system of education to begin by withdrawing this special privilege—for I agree that it is a special privilege—of the unversity graduate to a separate vote. There is this further argument, perhaps it is an even stronger argument. My hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon said yesterday that, if we lost the university Members from this House, we should lose a valuable element which is not to be found in ordinary constituency representation. For that reason, if for no other, let us retain the practice which has existed for so long and keep our university representatives. In conclusion, I trust, Mr. Speaker, that your Conference will enter upon their task knowing that they possess the full confidence of this House and that we shall all look forward to benefit from the results of your labours.
  Mr. Parker: I would like to make it clear that I am not speaking on behalf of my party officially, but as one who is interested in the question of

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  redistribution. The first point I would like to make, and one of local patriotism is this: My constituency, despite what has been said by others in this Debate, still claims to be the largest in the country at the present time. Taking the most recent war-time figures compiled, by the various town clerks whose areas are in my division there are 205,000 registered persons with food cards. If you take account of the Service people attached to these families, the number is about 275,000 adults, who would have the right to vote in my constituency at a normal election. That is an enormous number and it is difficult for one man to try to represent that number of people in this House. Since the war, the position has worsened as a result of the blitz, which has brought populations from other areas, notably the East End of London, into my constituency.
  Sir Herbert Williams: The hon. Member said there were 205,000 people with food cards. Does that include children?
  Mr. Parker: I am sorry, I meant 205,000 people of 21 and over. When you consider any proposals for redistribution you have to take into account both the rebuilding of destroyed areas and the new housing areas that may be planned for after the war. It will be difficult to carry out fairly at the present time any big scheme of redistribution but I would argue this: If redistribution is to take place, I would much prefer a general system to a partial system. I am quite certain that a partial system would come out unfairly as between the parties, taking their position in the country as a whole. Even given the difficulties of having a scheme of general redistribution, I prefer that, because with a general system I am quite certain that that will be fairer as between the parties throughout the country. I cannot agree with the hon. Member for Enfield (Mr. Bull), the right hon. Member for Chorley (Sir D. Hacking) or the hon. and learned Member for Ilford (Mr. Hutchinson), who are in favour of a partial system of redistribution.
  Another difficult point is that if you have a partial scheme in wartime and a general scheme at a later date when is that general scheme to be carried out? People have assumed that there will be
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  some period of normality soon after the war so that you could carry out a general scheme of redistribution. I do not see a period immediately following the war when we shall have a stabilised population. The Government have stated that they are planning a 10 years' housing programme after the war. At what period in this programme is this redistribution to take place? As I have said, given all the difficulties of having redistribution at the present time I think that is much better than a partial scheme now and a more general scheme immediately after the war. In making an attempt at general redistribution now the Boundary Commission however would have to take into account a number of difficult factors and try to weigh them in as impartial a way as possible. They would have to take into account the present population, the 1939 population and also any housing or industrial plans that would be well advanced with regard to the post-war period. I agree that it would be difficult to come to a fair decision, taking all these factors into account, but it will have to be done. It would be much fairer to have a general redistribution rather than a partial one, especially bearing in mind that on all sides of the House there is agreement that we should set up a permanent Boundary Commission which can review the situation as alterations take place in the postwar years.
  Another strong reason for a general scheme now is that local government reform is obviously overdue. It is a subject which the Government do not feel inclined to tackle. They are taking the line that they must prepare schemes of reconstruction in many fields and that they will postpone the question of local government reform until after they have brought forward their other reconstructional schemes. It looks as though proposals for local government reform and alteration of boundaries will take place some time after the war and certainly not during the war. If you have your general redistribution, now the Boundary Commission can, after the war, rearrange or alter boundary constituencies to suit the alterations that may then be made in local government boundaries. If we are not to have general redistribution now you automatically postpone the question until local government reform has been dealt with, probably some considerable time after the war.

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  I agree that so far as possible Parliamentary boundaries should coincide with local government boundaries. May I give an example from my own experience? I was a candidate once in the Holland with Boston Division of Lincolnshire. During that period there were boundary alterations. The county boundaries were old and followed the old watercourses, and it was arranged by adjacent county councils to alter them and run them along important dykes, which were much better boundaries. It meant that continuously one had to face the fact that the local government area was different from the Parliamentary area. If you had a permanent Boundary Commission in being when these local government alterations took place then, automatically, recommendations could be made to this House to bring the boundaries into line. This would mean a simplification of election machinery, among other things. This permanent boundary commission should be able, not merely from time to time to make big alterations, but to make small alterations of this kind as the need arose.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: What kind of local government boundary is the hon. Member talking about? Is he talking about urban and rural district boundaries or is he including parish boundaries? Would he say that the dividing line between the Parliamentary and local government constituencies should follow the course of the parish boundary?
  Mr. Parker: I think with regard to the constituency boundaries, unless the parish alterations affected larger units, one would normally have to stick to the district boundary, but that would obviously be a matter which the Boundary Commission would consider, and if there were important alterations to be made in parish boundaries, they would have to make a recommendation to the House on the matter.
  To leave this question of the permanent commission which, I think, will do very valuable work and greatly simplify electoral machinery in dealing with boundary questions, I would like to speak about local government and national elections in law and practice. A case has been put forward for having one franchise for local government elections and national elections. I agree with that, but I would
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  also ask the Speaker's Conference to consider unifying the whole of election law as far as possible, to have one codified system of law for local government and for national elections. With regard to the hours of elections, a few years ago we had a very peculiar chaos of arrangements about the hours of elections for local government purposes. It was a fact that in urban districts the county council could fix whatever hours it liked for local government elections. That is still the position. In my own constituency, it happens, that the town of Rom ford changed from an urban district to a borough, whereupon it came under another law and its hours were automatically restricted to 8 o'clock in the evening, whereas, previously it had been 9 o'clock. Owing to the kindness of Members of this House, I was able to get a small Bill through under the Ten Minute Rule which enabled boroughs also to extend their hours. But there are still a number of anomalies in this particular field, and I would suggest it would simplify the whole position, if all the arrangements with regard to elections, both local and national government, were unified to get rid of these anomalies.
  I was very pleased to hear my right hon. Friend the Member for Charley (Sir D. Hacking) attack contributions to charities by Members or candidates in their constituencies. I hope that point will be gone into by the Speaker's Conference. It is one of the biggest abuses at present that wealthy Members can give large donations to local hospitals and so on and thus unduly affect the result of an election. Possibly some arrangement might be made for a two year's ban on the Parliamentary candidature of anyone giving to charities in that area and a schedule of the kind of charities covered drawn up.
  With regard to business votes, I am quite certain if it were a question of creating now a business vote for the first time the case has not been proved. The argument has taken place on its possible abolition, but if it had not existed and we had to create it as something new, I say quite definitely the case has not been proved in this Debate. We are told that big business does not make much use of the business vote, but that small tradesmen living in one place and having business premises elsewhere, or solicitors and other professional people who live in one

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  place and have an office somewhere else ought to have a double vote. Why should they, when the man who happens to live over his shop does not have it? Why should they have it, when the doctor in the small town may have a separate house and surgery but both being inside the same constituency only has one vote? The logical conclusion to that argument of my hon. Friend is that everyone should have a double vote who lives and works in different places. If that is the argument put forward, my hon. Friends on this side of the House would probably take a very different attitude towards the business vote. That is the only logical conclusion of this argument because the business vote, as it has now become, is a special privilege given to one section of the community who are given two votes for no particular reason.
  On the question of university elections, I share the views of my hon. Friends on this side of the House in favour of their abolition but I think it is unlikely they will be abolished in this Parliament, so I would like to draw the attention of the Speaker's Conference to the many anomalies which take place at present in university elections which are very undesirable indeed. I am quite certain that it was the intention of this House when university constituencies were created, and particularly in 1918, that all graduates—both men and women—should have a vote but that is not the case at present. Only a handful of the graduates in the University of London have the vote and elect the Member of Parliament for that university because the position in London, and in a great many other universities, is that you have to contract in to have the university vote and pay a special registration fee. It so happens that the majority of people passing through the university and looking for a job are penniless at the time they graduate and so do not then contract in. They have nothing to spare and do not take out their registration to get the graduate vote. [An HON. MEMBER: "They can get it any time throughout their lives."] Yes, but it is only drawn to their attention when they are penniless and are, therefore, unlikely to take it out. It is a very unsatisfactory position indeed.
  Mr. Edmund Harvey: Is it not correct in the case of most universities that a
  1356
  composition fee is taken on graduation which includes the Parliamentary register?
  Mr. Parker: I was coming to that point. In the University of Oxford, unlike the University of London, somewhere about the year 1930 it was agreed that graduates should contract out instead of contracting in, so that the normal fee would cover University registration. If graduates do not want that, they have to say so. This means that most graduates in Oxford since that date have become university voters but, even so, the total number of Oxford voters is only a proportion of the total number of graduates of the University. I am not certain what the position is in my hon. Friend's constituency, or in Cambridge, but I would say that in considering this position of the university constituencies some uniform procedure should be adopted. I would suggest an arrangement by which everybody getting a University degree automatically goes on the register if this form of constituency is kept in being, otherwise the university franchise, especially in London, means absolutely nothing. I understand also that the Ballot Act does not apply to them, and there is no secrecy of the franchise in university elections. The reason for this is that it is very difficult to keep up a list of the addresses of University graduates. Therefore both the university and the electoral parties, or the organisations supporting candidates, have all to draw up the best lists of addresses they can. The different candidates, as well as the university, send out the voting papers with the election addresses to all the people whose addresses they can get hold of. That means that a person may receive a ballot paper from many different people if there are many candidates and, when the count takes place, there has to be a check to see that one person does not vote more than once.
  Sir H. Williams: Which university is the hon. Gentleman talking about?
  Mr. Parker: I am mentioning the University of Oxford at the present moment. The register is gone through, the Labour people are ticked off red and the Tories blue, and everyone knows exactly how everybody has voted. That is the only way elections can be run at present in order to make certain that a person has voted only one. I would suggest that the only way to overcome that difficulty

  1357
  would be to have a list of addresses prepared by the university itself and the ballot papers sent out by the University only and a check-up by the University authorities of the votes coming in, thus ensuring some kind of secrecy.
  The absence of secrecy often has undesirable results in university politics in the wider sense of the word. I understand that, on one occasion, a crisis took place at the London University in university politics, because the person advocating a particular policy knew that the person opposing it had voted against him in the election. It is very unfortunate that we should have this lack of secrecy in university elections. If we are to keep university seats, there should be a uniform scheme under which elections are conducted which will give the vote to all graduates, and we should have some system of vote by ballot. I am glad that the Conference is to take place and I hope we shall have substantial agreement between parties on the issues that will come before it.
  Major Petherick: The object of the Debate is to pass a formal Resolution setting up a Conference under your chairmanship, Sir, if you are good enough to accept the invitation, and, secondly, to put forward certain considerations to which Members wish to draw the attention of the Conference. In the course of a rapid speech the hon. Member who spoke last raised a number of very interesting points and I should like to follow him in considering many of them, but the time is very short. I should like to say, however, how much I agree with him on his first point that if, as we hope, there is to be a redistribution of seats, it shall be complete, and that no constituency shall be, as it were, left out of consideration. That is not to say that it is necessary in each case to alter the boundaries of all existing constituencies. It will be far better to follow the words of a Lord Shaftesbury of previous time that it is the height of good sense to know when to leave well alone. None the less, there is a very large number of big constituencies which are unwieldy in these very difficult times of stress for Members of Parliament.
  I admit that in logic it is difficult to defend the business vote. Some claim that it is virtually indefensible but I think the real answer to the contention of the other
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  side is that small businesses have more to contend with, in ordinary times, than has the normal citizen. They are working with their own money and their own property against very great difficulties. They are struggling not only against neglect but sometimes against the positive action of Parliament which, though not intended, has the effect of putting many of them out of business. They have a very great struggle and it seems to me that they are perhaps entitled to some weighted preference in the part they are playing in sending representatives to Parliament. I sincerely hope that university representation will not be abolished. Far from being what some would call a prerogative of the capitalist class, the universities, out of 12 Members, only return two Conservatives to Parliament. There are many representatives of universities who, if they had not been returned for those universities, would have found it difficult, if not impossible, to get in for an ordinary division. Nevertheless, when they get in by means of the university vote they are welcomed, their contributions are good, often extremely good, and of great academic interest, particularly in Debates which concern education. We are in the process of reforming the whole of our educational system. Coal miners can be heard through their trade union representatives and there are many other industries represented in the House on both sides but there are extraordinarily few schoolmasters or university dons unless they are elected as representatives of universities.
  I should like to say a word on the subject of Proportional Representation. The hon. Member for the Combined Universities (Mr. Harvey) was rather ingenuous yesterday when he suggested that those who were so fortunate as to be chosen to attend your Conference, Sir, should go with an open mind on this question, but it was clear that he himself, as well as the right hon. Baronet the Member for South West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris), had both very definitely made up their minds on the question. [Interruption.] It is not a bad thing to have either an open mind or to have preconceived notions as to whether Proportional Representation is or is not a bad thing. All I am saying is that Members should not be be shut out because they have certain determined ideas on the matter. Much of the argument on behalf of Proportional Representation is really unsound. The object of elections is

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  to send people to Parliament, broadly, as far as they can, to represent the people's will and to carry on the King's Government, and a purely mathematical lay-out of representation will not necessarily give more desirable results than the present law of the land.
  I think under the present system many minorities are either unrepresented or under-represented, but we should look on the other side. A purely mathematical pedagogic system, such as Proportional Representation, may give accurate results at the moment at which the election is taking place but there is no guarantee that with a floating opinion in respect of part of the electorate such as we have in this country, as well as in many others, opinions or votes will apply to large sections of the population even three months later than a General Election or a by-election and that these mathematically exact results will still hold good. Against that, you have the almost complete disappearance, by reason of huge constituencies, of the personal element, which is so immensely important. I find it difficult, sitting for a geographically big division, to cover my constituency adequately even in times of peace. If I were a Member for the whole of Cornwall, it would be infinitely more difficult, and on that argument alone I maintain that Proportional Representation is not suitable to the people of this country. I have not time to go into the results of Proportional Representation on the Continent but in almost every case of a big country where Proportional Representation or any other system of indirect vote has obtained the result has been sooner or later the splitting up of parties with the results of weakness, gerrymandering, graft, and a general de-dine of the whole standard of Parliamentary government. I should like to say again how much I welcome the Conference and I hope it will redound to the prestige and honour of Parliament in the recommendations that it makes.
  Mr. Wilfrid Roberts: It would seem from this full Debate that the Conference over which you, Mr. Speaker, will preside—and we all wish you luck—may be able to come to agreement fairly easily on the more technical questions such as redistribution
  1360
  and reducing the costs of elections. It seems to me that there is real disagreement on the fundamental principle whether we should make an attempt to make our representative institutions more representative. Many speakers, most of them connected rather closely with the organisation of the Labour Party and many Conservatives have a horror of any fundamental alteration of our present system. I was horrified by the speech of the hon. gentleman the Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn), who envisaged this business of facing the electors with only two alternatives, so that whether they liked it or not they would be forced to vote for one or the other. I have the responsibility for the organisation of a small party, and if I could get into that position I should be glad, but I do not think it is in the interests of the country that that should be the situation.
  It is right that we as Members of Parliament should discuss alterations, but I hope that those who go to the Speaker's Conference will remember that there is a large public outside which is getting rather sceptical about the House of Commons. The Services are sceptical as to whether the House of Commons is functioning well and there is a gulf between Members and the general public. That is a dangerous tendency. There is also great scepticism about organised and powerful parties. The Conservative Party was the most powerful party outside the totalitarian countries before the war. It was a wealthy, effective and able party and it managed its affairs very skilfully. It could not have succeeded in surviving on the votes it got unless it was skilful. It did not get a majority of votes and yet it got into power. Is that really desirable? Perhaps this point might appeal to the Leader of the House as Foreign Secretary. When I listened to Members saying that it does not matter if the result of a general election puts into power a Government which has a minority of the votes, I remembered the case of Spain. One of the issues there was whether the electoral system had given the Government duly elected a majority of the votes or not. We are faced with minority problems in Europe and we have some responsibility to Europe and the world to see that there are fair democratic systems in those countries.

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  I would ask the Leader of the House to clear his mind of party advantages and to look at this problem on a broader basis, to try and make the House in the difficult times that will come after the war representative, not only in the sense of representing particular groups and parties fairly, but in the sense of representing the types of younger people, Service personnel and others, who have taken a great part in this war and have not in the past had a fair place in politics. The hon. and gallant Member for South East Essex (Flight-Lieutenant Raikes) drew attention to the case of the young Service man who is feeling that he wants to take a responsible place in politics after the war. The scales are now weighted against him. They are obviously weighted in the Labour Party against anyone who has not served in the Labour movement. [HON. MEMBER: "No."] That is my view of the results. They are weighted in the Conservative Party against the sort of individual who has not made his way in the world. Most of our Prime Ministers came into the House at a very early age Cannot we devise a system which gives less authority and power to the party caucus, that gives the individual who may not be always a very good party man, the young man who is anxious to serve his country, a greater opportunity?
  I plead that some alteration such as Proportional Representation will do that. Before the war we took for granted that our electoral machinery was the most perfect in the world. I doubt it. We have things to learn from other countries. In the United States they have their primary elections. In this country the ordinary people have no voice in choosing their candidates. In the present by-elections they are given the alternative of a Conservative candidate and an Independent. One reason why Independents are elected is that the electors may not like the type of candidate which the Conservative Party caucus puts forward. The power of the party caucus is overwhelming and it leads to a sense of frustration, to a sense that the public have no voice in the choice of candidates, and to a sense that organised vested interests, trade unions and big business, are placing the candidates before the public. It may be objected that Proportional Representation may have the effect of enlarging constituencies, but it would give the public, where they have to elect more than one Member, an opportunity
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  of choosing the Member they like. It would lead to the advantage of making democracy a live and vital force. There is now a growing sense of separation between the public and Members of the House of Commons, and that is a dangerous thing in British public life. I therefore plead that Members should go to your Conference, Mr. Speaker, with as open a mind as possible and try to make an instrument which is vital in our democratic institutions. Other countries like the United States elect their own President. Here everything depends on the constitution of the House of Commons. It depends on the quality of the Members who get here. The House of Commons is the heart of democracy in this country. If we are to have a vital and vigorous country after the war there are many radical improvements which we must make in our electoral system.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden)The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden) rose——
  Mr. G. Griffiths: May I say, Mr. Speaker, without delaying the proceedings, that because some of us have not caught Mr. Speaker's eye during this last two days, I hope you will not think that we are not interested in the Speaker's Conference.
  Mr. Eden: I hope that you will take that testimonial, Sir, to the wide interest there is in your effort. This is such a House of Commons occasion and not a Government occasion that the speeches from the Government Front Bench have been relatively few and exceedingly brief. Indeed, there is another reason why our speeches have to be brief. Hon. Members in all parts of the House are fully at liberty to state their own individual opinions on all these most attractive and sometimes controversial subjects, and we have, in our ranks, slightly divergent views on these issues ourselves. We are not very good at this particular form of three-legged race. I. would like to give some comfort to the hon. Member for North Cumberland (Mr. W. Roberts), who has just given us such a very gloomy account of the relationship of Parliament to the country. I have noticed at intervals in Parliament, that one is apt to take rather a gloomy view on that matter, in proportion to the numbers

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  of the representation of the particular party to which one is attached. It is quite natural, and I have taken it myself. No doubt, as Parliamentary fortunes go, I shall take it again, but I shall not really believe it to be true. I hope that my hon. Friend will not be unduly unhappy on that score. I do not think he need be. I believe that the relationship of this Parliament to the country is much the same as that of other Parliaments to the country—pretty close, intimate and true.
  It is not for me to enter into a number of the controversial topics that have been raised. I was a little surprised at one time at the claims and counterclaims for Proportional Representation around which the battle chiefly raged. I understood from one hon. Member that, if only we had had it before, we might not have had this European war. I must say that that point had not occurred to me before, and it is a refreshing thought that Hitler can share the blame for it with somebody. Another of my hon. Friends thought that some countries would have armed much faster if they had not had Proportional Representation. That, too, had not occurred to me before. Debates do enlighten one on these topics. Then an hon. Member from Wales said that he did not want Proportional Representation as they had already got enough log-rolling in Wales. As an Englishman, I had never had that thought before. Upon all these matters, you, Sir, will have received valuable information, and I do not want to enter into that arena. We have had some very valuable speeches—and it would be invidious to single them out—notably from my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams) and from my hon. Friend the Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) yesterday. I noted that he did not receive the approval of the Communist Party, and I hope hon. Members will forgive me for saying that I do not think it was any the worse for that.
  Mr. Gallacher: It did not receive approval on the other side.
  Mr. Eden: And it was not the worse for that, either. There are two specific questions to which I would like briefly to reply. I was asked whether the rules relating to corrupt practices and expenses
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  which apply to Parliamentary elections, could be extended or assimilated to apply to local government elections. That is a matter, which I think the hon. Member was right in saying, is probably not covered by our terms of reference at the present, and I can tell him that the Government would like to consider it, to see whether, with your approval, Mr. Speaker, any wider terms of reference would be desirable to cover it.
  Mr. Buchanan: Is it proposed to alter the terms of reference without having to come back to this House? Surely it is not proposed to take what some hon. Members say, and to alter them?
  Mr. Eden: There is no Motion before the House in that sense. We have announced to the House what are the subjects, and it would mean another announcement, but not necessarily another Debate.
  Mr. Buchanan: I hope that the Government are not going to be committed to wholesale interference with local government elections, without some kind of comment made in this House.
  Mr. Eden: I promise my hon. Friend that I am not going to be committed to anything at present, except to an undertaking that we shall consider the matter, in order to see whether it is desirable to take the action which my hon. Friend asks. If we think so, no doubt we shall follow it up with whatever action may seem necessary, but I do not want to be committed to saying that.
  The other question was as to charitable contributions in the constituencies. Obviously, that raises very complicated issues and that, too, we shall look at, but I am not at present in a position to say whether we shall ask for it to come within the terms of reference or not. I was asked by the hon. and gallant Member for West Birkenhead (Colonel Sandeman Allen) about troops abroad. He said that they disliked the method of proxy voting. I think that is quite true. The method was adopted to enable them to be registered, and consequently to enable them to vote under existing conditions; but, in our view, it would be within the purview of Mr. Speaker's Conference for this matter to be examined there. It is not at all excluded, as we see the position.
  Sir Ralph Glyn: If that is to be agreed, it is a matter of supreme importance to all members of the three Services overseas. Will my right hon. Friend also agree that this special means of voting shall be made as identical as possible with conditions at home, in order to make the troops feel that they are taking part in elections, not only now but in the future?
  Mr. Eden: All I can say is that this matter can be examined by Mr. Speaker's Conference, and that it will be for hon. Members to put their points of view there.
  I am speaking in this matter, not as a Member of the Government but as an individual Member of the House of Commons. I do not want to enter into topics which have been well canvassed on all sides of the House, but to one theme which seemed to emerge from this Debate I would like briefly to refer. More than one hon. Member spoke of the importance which the constituency plays, not merely as a piece of electoral machinery but as a living part of our national life. I hope it is a part of our national life that will never be overlooked. A Member and his constituency have a certain friendship after a number of years, a certain intimacy, and a Member may often find, in bad times, support in his constituency when he does not get it elsewhere. That kind of relationship, and the fact that, once a Member is elected, he does not consider himself as representing the Tory or the Labour Parties but as the Member for the area, is one of the most valuable and steadying factors in our political life. It is essentially English—I beg pardon, British—and there has never been anything quite like it on the Continent of Europe.
  I would classify that, with our peculiar habit of Question Time, as being perhaps the two most exclusively British characteristics of our Parliamentary system. They are very important, and they are ones that we should never forget. Every one of us, whatever we are doing in the Government, knows all the time that a constituent can write a letter and ask us to see him and that we are going to hear him when he comes to see us. On the very rare occasions when the Government do not do what the hon. Member wants, a Question can be put down and, possibly, even an Adjournment Motion moved. All these things are open; they are all links
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  in the chain between the ordinary constituent and the Member of Parliament. I would only say that we must not overlook that fact in the work that we do.
  The other matter to which I would like to refer is this question of redistribution. It struck me that an earlier speaker made a very true point when he said that this is not really a problem entirely created by the war. Before the war, we were beginning to get into a position where some form of redistribution was called for. What your Conference, Mr. Speaker, is faced with is, as I see it, the dual problem of the need for redistribution which was being created by the position before the war, and secondly, anomalies arising from the war itself. I agree with the Home Secretary that it is a very difficult problem to resolve. I hope that the Conference will do its utmost to resolve it, because, although I am not an enemy of anomaly, some of them to-day are somewhat glaring and I think we should try to meet them.
  May I say a word on the subject of expenses mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Sir D. Hacking). If, as a result of these deliberations, the limit of expenditure is reduced I really do not think anyone will complain. For my part, I do not see how, otherwise, it will be possible for younger men to get into this House. The burdens are too heavy, the risks are too great, taxation is too high. It seems to me so important that these young men should have the chance in the post-war years to come and help us in our work. I, personally, hope that there something may be done.
  Mrs. Cazalet Keir: And women.
  Mr. Eden: Of course, and women, too. I have listened to this two-day Debate, and I cannot but feel, Mr. Speaker, that the task you have so nobly undertaken, or are about to undertake, at the wish of all the House, will not be a particularly easy one. It has seemed to me from time to time that there were quite considerable divergencies in the House. It has been our desire to draw these terms widely so that all these matters may be considered. I also hope, Sir, that the Members of your Conference, from all parties, will go to it, determined to do all they can to help you reach agreed solutions

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  and present them to this House. I join issue again with the hon. Member for North Cumberland. We cannot often talk about ourselves in the House of Commons. I would do so briefly before I close. I think that, looking back over these four war years, this House has reason to be proud of its record. We have been virtually alone, certainly alone in Europe, as a Parliamentary institution which has kept going despite enemy action, which has discussed domestic problems and international problems, however difficult the general situation might be, and I believe that, in the world at large, there is a real respect for the British Parliament. I believe it stands high.
  What we hope your Conference will do, Mr. Speaker, is to improve our machinery where it needs improving, so that in the post-war period and the last years of this war, which are yet to be very stern years, Parliament may acquit itself as well as it has done since the war broke upon us. That is the help we are asking of you and your Conference. We believe you can do it for us. We are happy to place the matter under your guidance; we believe that, as a result, Parliament will be further strengthened, and, in all sincerity, we wish you well.
  Mr. Granville: In the two or three minutes which I have left before the Debate ends, I would like to say I am sure that the right hon. gentleman's speech will be well received in all parts of the House, particularly the reference he made with regard to the reduction of expenses. I hope that when the Speaker's Conference comes to deal with what the Home Secretary calls the various heads of Conference particular attention will be paid to this question of the reduction of expenses allowed in elections, not only for the reasons which the right hon. gentleman the Leader of the House gave, but for one particular reason which I have just a few minutes to state. Whatever we have discussed in these two days, in regard to electoral machinery, the reform of the franchise and the rest of it, I have not heard one single speech which referred to the tremendous importance of wireless broadcasting in the general elections of the day.
  It may be that before the next Speaker's Conference we shall have television complete
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  and available at a cheap rate for most of the homes in this country, at any rate to a vast proportion of the electorate. We may well see with that television almost the abolition of the political meeting as we know it to-day and knew it years ago. We have gone a long way from Eatanswill. I know a right hon. Gentleman of this House who was giving a lecture on one occasion when the Prime Minister was to make a broadcast speech. This right hon. Gentleman was an attractive speaker, the meeting was well advertised, but it was a dark and cold night, and the result was that most of the people stayed in their homes to hear the Prime Minister's great national hook-up broadcast. Whether we like it or not, what is said in those broadcasts by the leaders of the parties, before and during the election, will, with great respect, Sir, have more effect upon an election than some of the things that we are going to refer to your Conference. It is said "He who controls the microphone controls the future." It may be 20 years before we have another Speaker's Conference. With this tremendous development of wireless broadcasting, millions of the new electorate will hear of these political issues for the first time from the broadcasts of the political leaders. The public is wireless minded.
  As one hon. Member said, no one under the age of 30 in this country has ever voted in a General Election, and no one under the age of 26 in a by-election. I believe that during the last election, when the I.L.P. made representations for certain wireless facilities to broadcast their case, they were told that if they had 25 candidates they would be considered. The B.B.C. then fully controlled broadcasting, and the Charter was vested in the Postmaster-General. To-day it is vested in the Minister of Information who I understand has taken counsel's opinion on his war-time responsibilities on this. When we come nearer to a General Election, who is going to say how much time is to be allotted to the newer parties, the Communist Party, to Common Wealth, to Independent if you like and others? If the decision is controlled by the Minister of Information effectively during the war period, and we have a General Election during the war, who is to decide how much time is to be allotted to the different parties? What is needed is an impartial body to consider the whole future relationship

  1369
  of the broadcasting monopoly to the political parties, particularly when the broadcasting monopoly is vested in the Government of the day. The terms of reference of the Speaker's Conference may not allow full inquiry and investigation on this point, but I hope, in view of the fact that it may be a long time before this subject is thoroughly examined again, that some attention will be given to it, and I hope in particular that the Government themselves will look at this, because I believe that eventually the development of wireless and television is going to transform completely the whole character of General Elections, and that it will be vital to set up an impartial body to see that all political parties get a fair and equal opportunity.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved:
  "That this House welcomes the proposal of His Majesty's Government to set up a Conference on Electoral Reform and Redistribution of Seats and to invite Mr. Speaker to preside."

ARMED FORCES (POST-WAR STRENGTH)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain McEwen.]
Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: A number of people hope, and an equally great number of people fear, that at any moment we may be hustled into peace.
It being the hour appointed for the interruption of Business, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Major Sir James Edmondson.]
Sir T. Moore: From watching this House in the past few weeks, I think the Government have taken that view, because they have begun to produce certain post-war plans on Reconstruction, among which the latest and most substantial has been the Education Bill. We are also promised various White Papers forecasting further plans in other directions, and therefore I do not feel that I am either premature or perhaps unjustified in suggesting that all our plans for
1370
a lasting peace and a better world are worthless unless we are strong enough to preserve that peace and to protect that world. There will be idealists with many theoretical views and plans for ensuring Utopia, but experience has told us that realism is the better investment.
A few weeks ago I asked the Prime Minister what plans he had in mind for the retention or provision of adequate Defence Forces after the war. To my surprise—it was fairly justified surprise—the right hon. Gentleman the Deputy Prime Minister replied to the effect that the question was somewhat premature and that nothing had yet been decided. I think I was reasonably surprised because, during the past few months, we have had international conferences at the very highest levels. We have had discussions between the various Service chiefs of the Allied Nations, and, therefore, some agreement should have been reached in regard to our post-war Armies, Navies and Air Forces. I admit that there must be one or two problems that limit precise decisions on these points, and one is adequate forces for garrisoning Europe after the enemy has been cleared out and defeated there, and the second is, what will be the requirements for defeating the enemy in the Far East? But, as the Prime Minister himself has often shown us, difficulties are made to be overcome. If this particular difficulty is now insoluble I would like, with your permission, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but with great diffidence, to make a few suggestions which have emerged from discussions I have had with highly qualified friends and many Members in this House. We must assume that henceforth Britain will have to support forces with clearly defined considerations of action and a clearly defined scope of duties. I will call them for easy reference an Expeditionary Force and a Home Defence Force. This term almost defines by name their separate functions. Many students of war and of defence are of the opinion that conscription should be retained after the war for all Forces. I myself, after a lot of thought, am with the minority in thinking that the voluntary system would be the best for our regular or expeditionary force——
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Charles Williams): I am sorry to interrupt the hon. and gallant Member, but to introduce conscription after the war would undoubtedly

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need legislation, which is not a matter that we can discuss on the Adjournment.
Sir T. Moore: I suggest that every constructive suggestion we make in this House must inevitably involve legislation if carried any further, but all I am seeking to do is to implant a few ideas in the mind of my right hon. Friend which he may or may not discard as useless or worthless at a later date. I will try to fall in with your wise guidance, Sir. Apart altogether from the question of whether conscription is retained or not, I assume that an expeditionary force will still be carried on on the same principle as we have had hitherto—that is, a system by which there were certain overseas units and complementary reinforcing units at home. That may satisfy the expeditionary force, but, obviously, some new system will have to be devised for the home defence force. So far as I can ascertain, it seems to be the view, and we have had ample justification for it in this war, that so much of the spirit of adventure and of the spirit of enterprise now exists amongst our younger people that there will be no difficulty whatsoever in finding all the necessary volunteers for such an expeditionary force, and it will be for the Government and the Service chiefs at the time to strengthen that force and ultimately have it approved by Parliament.
With regard to the strength of the home defence force, there does not yet appear to be any opposition formed generally amongst the public or even in this House. Many people, of course, have the idea of the old Militia, and equally many have a similar view about the Territorial Army, which, as we know, played in the last war and in this a splendid part. I clash with both these views, because it seems to me that the old Militia and the Territorial Army are now both out of date, and the point I really want to make is that all the home defence forces of a military character should be merged in the existing Home Guard. As we know, the Home Guard was born out of stress and danger and, a tremendous sense of patriotism, and it is far more a national force than ever the Militia or the Territorial Army could be. I suggest that the newly-arranged Home Guard should
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be divided into three sections, one for the Navy, one for the Army and one for the Air Force. I go further and say that all officers and men resigning or discharged from the Regular Forces from to-day should be passed automatically into the new Home Guard—after, of course, eliminating the disabled. That would mean that the new home defence force would have within its ranks men of modern thought and knowledge, much experience and first-class technical and professional qualifications.
My next suggestion is that all boys from the various youth movements—which I regret were not made statutory in the Education Bill—should be passed from the youth movements into the same home defence force, and thus it would bring in a new kind of enterprise and adventure, while those wanting more adventure would still have the expeditionary force at their choice. The result of these proposals, in my view, would mean that we would have a defence force of something like 6,000,000 or 7,000,000 men constantly maintained as long as our existing population was maintained. The training, of course, could be based partly on the old Territorial Force pattern and partly on the Home Guard pattern. Naturally, there would be an age limit fixed, of which the House approved. Some arrangements would also be necessary to ensure that they would be available in a national emergency for overseas. That has always been done with Territorial Forces and others in the past. But whatever the Government may decide, either on the lines I have just mentioned or whether they have any plans of their own, their decisions should take legal form before the first man is demobilised after this war.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If the hon. and gallant Member gets on to legal forms that means legislation and that is out of Order. I have already been in great difficulty with a good deal of this discussion. The hon. and gallant Member must not get on to the subject of legal form.
Sir T. Moore: Well, then, such plans as the Government may have—and I hope they have—must be decided before the first demobilisation takes place. Otherwise, so far as I can see, you will have men possibly called back after they have

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been discharged and that would result in a considerable amount of unrest. I have tried to be brief in order to give someone else a chance of speaking before my right hon. Friend replies to these few crude ideas which have been developing in the minds of many hon. Members and myself. They may not be perfect—I admit no idea ever is perfect at its birth—but they may be a foundation on which to build, and since we are all bending our minds to the rebuilding and remoulding of a better world I do not think we shall be wasting our time by creating machinery now for making that better world secure.
Mr. McKinlay: I would like to offer one or two observations on the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore). I have not listened to such a farrago of nonsense for a considerable time. What the hon. and gallant Member desires, if I understand him correctly, is to perpetuate the whole military system in this country. When he talks in terms of a defence force of 6,000,000 in a population of 45,000,000, one naturally asks: What are we fighting for; what is this huge defence force for and what will it do? The hon. and gallant Member regretted that there was no statutory obligation in the new Education Bill to make youth movements compulsory. By that he meant they would be compelled to go on into the Armed Forces. If he wants to kill the youth movement let him try to popularise it by dangling in front of our boys the fact that automatically they will be transferred into the Armed Forces after the war. The hon. and gallant Member has, apparently, little knowledge of the minds of working-class fathers and mothers. Parents will encourage their children to take part in youth movements and to join Navy, Army and Air cadet forces during an emergency such as this, but if it gets abroad that some hon. Members of this House are prepared to perpetuate the present system for the children who are to come along, then such a suggestion is doing a disservice to the national effort. For instance, the hon. and gallant Member said that the Militia was worn out and that the Territorials, who have apparently served their purpose, were also "washed out." What does he mean? He is simply indicating that it is running through the minds of the knowledgeable
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friends he has consulted—who have been nameless—that conscription in this country is going to be a permanent institution.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: On conscription I have to remind the hon. Gentleman he must not go any further, whether it is running through his mind or anyone else's mind.
Mr. McKinlay: It is not running through my mind, Sir. I am trying to interpret the case stated by the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs. It does not require legislation to make an idea penetrate one's mind, and I think the hon. and gallant Member is flying a kite and thereby encouraging, maybe, some of the knowledgeable people whom he has consulted—or he may be pretty intimately associated with people in high places; we do not know. All I am suggesting is that he can advocate the continuation of military conscription after the war if he cares, but I for one want to protest against any suggestion going from this House at the moment that the youth movements should in any way be saddled with a statutory obligation that their members will follow on into the Armed Forces even after the war is finished.
The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): My hon. and gallant Friend gave me notice that he intended to raise the whole matter of what armed forces would be necessary in the world after this war, and what would be our contribution. What will be the exact numbers is obviously a matter of very great importance, and I am sure the suggestion of my hon. and gallant Friend will be taken note of, I cannot say necessarily approved. He appears to be expecting, however, that I should be able to make a definite pronouncement on policy, and seemed surprised when, in answer to a Question, I said this was premature. Well, it is premature. We have first to win the war against Germany, then to win the war against Japan, and then to consider what will be the condition of the world, and what will be the forces, and those forces will largely depend on what is the political set-up in the world after the war.
Obviously those factors are entirely unknown at the present time. It is impossible to make a Government pronouncement just yet. These questions are being

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considered in the Departments and as much attention is given to them as can be spared from the very pressing task of winning this war first of all. I do not think that my hon. and gallant Friend wanted to do more really than ventilate the subject. He did not expect from me pronouncement either on the matters on which he was able to speak or on those on which he was not allowed to speak. All I can tell him is that, of course, one of the matters that must be under the consideration of the Government in respect of post-war planning will be the amount of armed forces—and remember that armed forces to-day are not just so many men but the whole organisation behind them as well—necessary to this country. That will be given careful consideration. I certainly cannot make any fuller statement than that at present.
Sir T. Moore: Could my right hon. Friend say that these particular matters have actually been discussed, so that the country will have more confidence that they are under active consideration, and that we shall not be hurtled into peace without having made any provision for preserving the world in peace when we have achieved it?
Mr. Attlee: These general matters are being considered.
Mr. McKinlay: Including a Home Guard of 6,000,000?
Mr. Attlee: I said that these general matters are being considered. I did not say the particular suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member had yet been considered.
Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.

FOOD SUPPLIES
  Civilian Hospitals (Service Patients)
  Civilian Hospitals (Service Patients)
  Harvest Suppers
  Harvest Suppers
SCOTLAND
  New Shops (Co-operative Societies)
  New Shops (Co-operative Societies)
  Film Production
  Film Production
  SCHOOLS (HOLIDAY OPENING)
  SCHOOLS (HOLIDAY OPENING)
  PRISONERS OF WAR, JAPAN (TREATMENT)
  PRISONERS OF WAR, JAPAN (TREATMENT)
  PUBLIC MEETINGS, PLYMOUTH (COST)
  PUBLIC MEETINGS, PLYMOUTH (COST)
  OMNIBUS SERVICE, GLOUCESTER AND STROUD
  OMNIBUS SERVICE, GLOUCESTER AND STROUD
COAL INDUSTRY
  Shifts Lost
  Shifts Lost
  Output
  Output
  Average Wage Rates
  Average Wage Rates
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Post Office Savings Bank (Deposit Limits)
  Post Office Savings Bank (Deposit Limits)
  Old Age Pensions
  Old Age Pensions
  New Zealand Government (Stock Conversion Facilities)
  New Zealand Government (Stock Conversion Facilities)
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (MESSENGERS)
  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (MESSENGERS)
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (BALLOON COMMAND)
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (BALLOON COMMAND)
  SOUTHERN RHODESIA (MAIL SERVICES)
  SOUTHERN RHODESIA (MAIL SERVICES)
  LAUNDRY SERVICES
  LAUNDRY SERVICES
Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
LORD WESTWOOD.
William Westwood, Esq., O.B.E., having been created Baron Westwood of Gosforth in the County of Northumberland—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
LORD AMMON.
Charles George Ammon, Esq., having been created Baron Ammon of Camber-well in the County of Surrey—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

THE SOIL AND HEALTH
LORD TEVIOT LORD TEVIOT had the following Notice on the Paper: To call attention to the Royal Commission which it has been decided to set up to investigate the birth-rate and trends of population, and to ask whether the terms of reference cover the subject raised in the debate in this House on 26th October, 1943—namely, the condition of the soil in relation to the health of man, animal and plant—and to move for Papers.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: My Lords, I rise on behalf of my noble friend Lord Teviot to move the Motion standing in his name. This morning he telephoned that he was confined to bed with an acute attack of lumbago, and he asked me to present to your Lordships his apologies for not being able to move this Motion in person. I should also like, in moving the Motion, to absolve my noble friend from any responsibility for the manner in which I may do so. When the Royal Commission on population trends was announced on behalf of the Government by the noble Duke, the Duke of Devonshire, to me, at any rate, it seemed that it was a move which was, or could be, of more importance than anything else that has happened in the social life of our country in the last forty or fifty years. The way in which the noble Duke replied on behalf of the Government showed that,
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in his own mind, there was the same sense of this importance, and the feeling that the inquiry, if it is to be thorough, searching, and realistic, must go very deep, to the very basis of our civilization—that it cannot confine itself to one thing or another. It cannot deal merely with the shell or structure of our Social Services responsible for the vitality—for that is what it means—or lack of vitality. It must go far deeper than that. In that connexion I cannot help feeling that if the Royal Commission were to investigate this problem and not investigate the relation between the vitality of man and the vitality of the soil on which he feeds, it would be like producing Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark.
Those of us who are seriously interested in this aspect of soil nutrition and its bearing on the health of plants, and animals, and man, realize profoundly that this is only one aspect but it is, after all, the basis of a great deal of our lives. We can see outside, upon the London County Council buildings across the Thames, the sign, "Food is a munition of war—do not waste it." It is far more: it is a munition of life, and let us see that it is vital food. The difficulty in moving a Motion of this sort is not to find material for one's argument but to select material. It is difficult because there is such a wealth of it. I should like to-day to confine my arguments as far as possible to the findings of a group of people who are scientifically qualified in the highest degree and who have had a long experience of the matter we are discussing. I refer to the group known as the Peckham Pioneer Health Centre. They are, as your Lordships are probably well aware, a group of doctors who have investigated over a period of years an urban cross-section of our population. They have confined themselves to no particular class. So that their experiment and their experience may be not made invalid by special arguments, their experiment has been confined neither to very poor income ratios nor to the very high income ratios, but covers a very wide cross-section of the population and a very wide cross-section of occupation as well. The point they were searching for was to produce health, to have research into health and its relationships.
They have begun with the family as a unit. Arising from their work with the family, naturally the whole question of

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environment has come in and the most vital member of the family, the mother, has been the subject of their special attention. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, the day before yesterday, made a most profound and interesting speech to a body called the Food Education Society and he expressed a wish in that speech that hospitals might become the centres of positive health. With all due deference I feel that the term "positive health" is there used in its wrong context, because positive health cannot begin with hospitals. Hospitals may be magnificent centres for rehabilitation, for teaching a better way of life to those who have been invalids, but they cannot be centres of positive health. Positive health, in my opinion and I believe in that of most of those who have thought deeply upon this question, must begin in the womb and indeed in the womb before conception starts, with the health and vitality of the mother. In that connexion the doctors working in the Peckham Health Centre discovered that feeding the families in the Centre with the ordinary so-called balanced food diet bought from a shop was not enough. The vitamins and so forth in the ordinary analysis of such vegetables as spinach and in such food as milk were not there; the vitality was not there; and they were forced to turn then to their own farm. They were forced to grow the food themselves, so as to get the beginnings of positive health in the unborn child, and the methods they were forced to use were the methods upon which Lord Teviot and others spoke in the debate on 26th October last. They were forced to use not new methods but the ancient method of returning waste to the soil and creating humus.
I think the importance of their work is to be found not only in the wide field covered but in the results of their original examinations. The number of individuals examined from these families ran into nearly four thousand. Of those a very large proportion had actual disease, but even more, the majority, were suffering from some disorder of which they were largely ignorant because it had not immediately affected them. As your Lordships know, it is quite possible to have cancer and to be ignorant of the fact. The majority of these people had some disorder which would affect them in later life
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but of which they were in ignorance because they had been able to compensate themselves in other ways. It was found that 10 per cent. had neither disease nor disorder. The most striking and I think the most sinister finding, however, was that among the nearly two thousand women examined only 4 per cent. were found to be without disorder. It seems that while many things may have contributed to this disastrous state in a comparatively well-off section of the population, even from their own findings the doctors were forced to get food which they thought would create the beginnings of positive health. There must be a very serious connexion between the food we eat and the health which it produces. It seems to me that we are too much concerned to-day to try to build the shell, the structure of the Social Services, too much concerned with pathological remedies and palliatives, and that we do not pay sufficient attention to the living organism which must grow within the shell, or in spite of it. I feel that we are confined far too much to-day in our farming and in our medical life within the scaffolding of pathology.
I should like at this point to draw a comparison. Before the war, for several years it was my privilege to be able to visit, sometimes once, sometimes twice each summer, two farms in Holland run by a most able and distinguished man, a man who was not only a great observer but one of the most practical men I ever met. Those farms were run on the line of creating humus from organic waste. They were market gardens as well. There you could see probably every disease that was usual—endemic or even epidemic—in the local countryside; red spider on the tomatoes and so forth; but in no case was the disease getting the upper hand. The animals had a bloom on them and a gentleness quite remarkable. They were being fed far more economically than most of us could manage to feed our animals if we were to obtain the same results. Their production was not higher than production on the neighbouring farms. There was disease, but health predominated, disease nowhere got the upper hand. When thunderstorms laid neighbouring crops flat the crops on these farms were standing up. That was one side. The other side was in the market. At that time when the world was being forced to restrict production because people were

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unable to consume, not because they did not want to consume, tens of thousands of lettuces were being dumped through the agency of the Dutch Government every day into the sea, and the same thing was happening with other vegetables. But from these two farms, while all this destruction was going on, every vegetable which could be produced was being sold at from 15 to 20 per cent. above the ordinary market price. Families who were being supplied with food from those farms, as they had been supplied for yeas, said that they could manage on less of this food and they felt a great deal better. When they went for holidays they sometimes came back early because the children did not flourish in the same way as when they were at home. I am not saying that there is any great proof in that, but it was a very interesting picture which I was privileged to watch over a period of years.
Compare that with what you could have seen before the war on a visit to one of our research stations in England. There you could have gone into the laboratory and have had explained to you a new form of spray for poisoning aphides on apples. The history of the need for that new spray was that round about 1900, when apples were being sprayed with arsenic to keep them free from various attacks, several people died of arsenic poisoning through eating apples, so that a law was introduced prescribing the maximum amount of arsenic that could be sprayed on apples. But about 1935, 200 times the legal amount of arsenic was being sprayed on apples which had to be washed afterwards with some napthalene solution. The various parasites which the arsenic was supposed to kill had developed a resistance to arsenic, and although the strength was increased 200 times the parasites were still there. Therefore it became necessary to develop a new form of poison. But on those farms in Holland no sprays of any sort, apart from certain vegetable sprays, were ever used.
This same group of doctors has produced a report for the Association of Planning and Regional Construction. If I may I would like to make some short quotations. The report says:
"Conditions necessary for the invalid are inimical to the continued validity of the valid. From this it follows; that we cannot expect health from any policy—however efficient—
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which in effect is solely directed to the stamping out of sickness."
On the subject of hygiene, they say hygiene
"is now progressing away from pathology, i.e. away from direct methods of attack upon the parasite towards a self-sustaining balance in the living environment."
They say, speaking of the return of organic waste to the soil, that
"there is here evidence of a mutuality of function at work between soil, plant, insect, animal and man …"
And later on they say:
"We have, nevertheless, seen that the laws of pathology cut across the path of mutual synthesis. Their essence is separation from and reaction to (against) the environment. All disease and disorder are therefore inimical to health."
We live in our own islands in a world where at least lip service, accompanied at times with very deep conviction, is rendered to the fact that we have a religion which teaches love more than anything else; but however much we may fail in our daily practice with each other we fail infinitely more in our practice with the soil. We consider it far too often necessary to defeat nature. We talk of the struggle for existence and we forget that the earth could not carry on without all forms of life upon it, that we have a mutuality and synthesis working together. In all humility I submit that it is time that we very seriously considered whether we ought not now to investigate that mutuality and not every time the destruction of the parasite. I should like to quote a story of the family life of the dove. The dove sits for eighteen days. Male and female can both sit, and do sit. But four days before the young dove is due to be hatched both in male and female there is a secretion of saliva in the crop which enables the young chicks on being hatched to be fed with that pre-digested food from the crop. Without that saliva the young chicks could not be fed and could not live. If by any chance the eggs are addled and infertile the doves continue to sit but the crop saliva is not created. There must therefore be some relationship which we do not yet understand between the egg and the parents. Again, the male dove can be induced to sit without the female, but although the egg may be fertile he cannot produce the saliva of his own accord. He can, however, produce this secretion through the crop gland if injected with some of the saliva of the female. In

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other words there is a reason for billing and cooing.
I will not comment on the significance of this evidence in support of our deepest instinctive feelings for family life, but I should like to point out that it must have some parallel in terms of farming. As your Lordships know, there is to-day a movement for the widespread and increased use of the artificial insemination of cattle. Is there, by reason of this particular parallel of the dove, anything which would give us cause to doubt? If so, we should make very careful investigations before we unreservedly adopt this new form of progress. We think in terms only of what is already ascertained, but in the relationship of the egg of the dove to the parents' crop there is evidence, I suggest, of influences which may vitally affect farming, in the relationship, for example, between plant and plant, in the action of humus and in the matter of the conservation of waste. I suggest that it gives us another parallel which should make us think. It is often said that the onus of proving the correctness of the doctrine of returning to natural farming should be upon the people who say that there is something in it. But it is not a new doctrine. It is as old as time. Surely the onus of proof should rest on the other side; that is, upon the people who have gone, without very deep consideration, into the newer forms of farming which tend to do away with the return of waste and to place reliance on the heavy use of artificial chemical manures, the pathological use of the poison spray and so forth. These things have been adopted as new inventions merely on face value. They may be very good. I am not denying that they may be right, but surely the onus of proving their rightness should be on the school which professes to believe in them rather than on the school which holds by methods which have been tried for centuries and not found wanting.
We have done very quickly, in the name of progress, things which might concern human beings to the utmost. We have, for instance, accepted the necessity for compulsory vaccination—though it is no longer compulsory. We have jumped to conclusions about the pasteurization of milk, and many people to-day are ready to say that that should be compulsory. I shall not weary your Lordships by discuss-
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ing these matters at length, but we all know that many doctors to-day are giving M. and B. 693, to their patients, less by reason of the nature of the disease than from the fact that patients like to think that they are getting up-to-date treatment and the latest benefits of science. We welcome the motor car as a great factor in human progress, and we do not object to it maiming or killing 250,000 people a year. If we are willing to take these things on their face value, is it too much to ask that this Royal Commission should undertake to consider whether there may not be something which is vital to life in the forms of agriculture which were debated on the 26th October? I do not believe it would be very expensive. It might take a long time but that would not matter. But we are in desperate danger now. If what we say is right, if there is anything in this theory, recovery will take a long time. Even if there is nothing in it we shall have gained knowledge, and still be able to go ahead with clear consciences. If there is something in it, the quicker a start is made, and the more thoroughly the investigation is carried out, the greater will be the benefit not only to this country but to the whole human race. And the cost of obtaining this knowledge would be just the merest fraction of the cost of obtaining another 100 miles an hour speed in the air.
One thing that we do know is that we have lost that full abundance of overflowing health which once we possessed. Picture the swallow curving in flight above the river in summer, or the teal dropping down at dusk. Consider the vigour and the beauty of their flight. Imagine a tigress with her cubs coming down in the evening to drink at a pool on the edge of a jungle; note the ripple of her sleek coat and the beauty of her colouring which, in its way, equals that of the wild peacock which she disturbs. And then think of the multitudes of human beings, 90 per cent. of them suffering from disorders, swaying wearily homewards in the Tube at night. In the rather self-conscious evening of our civilization cannot we use by every means in our power the knowledge which we have got in order to discover something which can give back to mankind the feeling of the morning of the world? My Lords, I beg to move.
LORD GLENTANAR: My Lords, I rise to support the Motion and the very able speech which has been made in

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moving it by the noble Earl, in the absence of Lord Teviot in whose name the Motion stands. As the noble Earl has said, those of us who support this Motion feel very strongly that an opportunity is given by the appointment of this Royal Commission, to lose which would be a very great disaster. If we could be assured that one of the channels which would be explored by this Commission would be the close relationship between the life of man, animal, plant and soil, we should feel that the Commission would be undertaking the task in its entirety and in a way in which no undertaking of its kind has ever been carried out before.
We are talking of life, and life on this planet, in relation to the great size of our planet, may be called a thin film upon its surface, a tenuous film which has been called the biosphere. It extends only a few inches into the surface of the ground and but a short way into the atmosphere and into the waters which cover the earth. It is easily and quickly destroyed; and so, if we look at it in this light, the existence of life on this planet may be a more precarious thing than we have hitherto imagined. Before the era of modern science, the close and complex interlocking of living things was clearly realized, for man's close contact with nature gave him an intuitive understanding of these things. To appreciate this we need read only such a work as Good Points of Husbandry, by Thomas Tusser, written in the sixteenth century, and we shall realize that this went without question.
The study of matter, which developed so rapidly in the nineteenth century, from its very orientation, from its methods of analysis and searching always into smaller and smaller entities, became a method of disintegration; from element to molecule, from molecule to atom, from atom to electron, from electron to quantum and so forth, and so the search continued always into smaller and smaller entities. The strides which science has made in these directions have been of the greatest possible importance, but until recently they have always been in one direction. A technique, a habit, a mentality has been acquired which has become almost universal. Aboard the good ship Science, the lookout post was for a time unmanned, because the ship's company were so busy peering at their charts and looking through
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their navigational instruments that they developed a short-sightedness which made them quite unsuited for going into the lookout and scanning the horizon.
This state of affairs was realized after a time by our deep thinkers, and especially in the world of biology, where the process of studying the small entities yielded unsatisfying results. But the biologists, with all possible respect to them, had in those days been trained in the school of nineteenth century science, and it was difficult for them to think of putting the ship's helm over and sailing in the opposite direction, the direction of synthesis and integration. Many of them, however, are now steering that course in different parts of the world, including this country, for biology has been emancipated and has received—I say it with all humility—a new inspiration. In supporting this Motion, I am one of those who do so because we feel that the opportunity is now open, with this Royal Commission, for the study of the whole and not of the part; and we feel that in this direction only are there reasonable chances for the re-establishment and maintenance of health.
I plead with His Majesty's Government to support a long-term, wide-range research into the whole organism comprising man, animal, plant and soil. I ask your Lordships' indulgence so that I may quote from a most important work by Field-Marshal Smuts, which he wrote in 1926, called Holism and Evolution, which had a most profound effect on the contemporary thought of the time. In that book he said:
"Both matter and life consist, in the atom and the cell, of unit structures whose ordered grouping produces the natural wholes which we call bodies or organisms. This character or feature of 'wholeness' which we find in the case of matter and life has a far more general application, and points to something fundamental in the universe, fundamental in the sense that it is practically universal, that it is a general operative factor, and that this shaping influence is felt ever more deeply and widely with the advance of Evolution."
Again, he says:
"The whole as a real character is writ large on the face of Nature. It is dominant in biology; it is everywhere noticeable in the higher mental and spiritual developments; and science, if it had not been so largely analytical and mechanical, would long ago have seen and read it in inorganic nature also."

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These are very important words, and I think we can take them well to heart to-day.
As the noble Earl who has just spoken has said, research into the nature of the whole may be often a much more expensive, difficult and slow process than research into the nature of the fragment; but in the matter with which we are concerned to-day no difficulties are too great and no perseverance too exhausting if we can make progress in this extraordinarily important and fundamental matter. I suppose that nothing in the nature of research exactly of this order has ever been attempted before. That it will be undertaken either in this or in some other country before long is, I think, certain, because the writing is clear upon the wall. In the continents where man's lack of wisdom has caused more obvious havoc than it has here, the writing can be more clearly seen. The recent United Nations Conference on Food and Agriculture at Hot Springs has recommended that a permanent body should be established to deal with the varied problems of food and agriculture, not in isolation but together, and in its unanimous findings it has emphasized the relation between the quality of food and the productivity of the soil. We ask that that be extended one step further to include the realm of human nature. International collaboration in this field would, of course, be of the greatest possible value, and after the war there is no reason why experimentation of this kind in different countries could not and should not be linked closely together.
We have got a wonderful opportunity in these islands. We are most singularly suited to carry out research of this nature, because we can find soils between full fertility and barren want, where experimental work, already carried out, can be observed and larger and more carefully co-ordinated experiments instituted. This will need the whole-hearted co-operation of scientists in every field, but the experiments, I am convinced, should be carried out under the direction of impartial and independent bodies. It may well be that these researches would not only show us the way to better health and a stronger and more abundant population, but may also show us fundamental faults in our sociology and our economics, and they may indicate certain remedies. We may
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find out, as some of us suspect, that in a country of whose population only so small a proportion is engaged in agriculture compared with other industries, we shall need to take steps to alter this proportion.
The latest figures I have been able to find are in the 1931 census, from which I see that in England, Scotland and Wales together the proportion of men and women over fourteen years of age occupied in agriculture, compared to the total number in all industries, is a figure of only about six and a half per cent. The proportion may have altered during the war, but I doubt very much if it has increased materially, because, although we have so much larger an acreage under cultivation, still the amount of mechanical apparatus which we are using must greatly counterbalance the increase in agricultural employment, and at the same time the number of women employed in other industries has been so very greatly increased. That, to me, is a very disquieting figure. I wonder whether it is possible for a population to be healthy if only about six and a half per cent. is engaged in the natural pursuit of tilling the soil. In the study of the problems of population most disquieting statistics, I believe, exist as to the low fertility of urban families entirely composed of town-bred people for more than two generations, and it will be surprising if, in the researches to be undertaken into questions of population, more disquieting facts still are not revealed. In the study of the whole we may find that the well-being of man is the paramount consideration and that his place in the whole organism, his life and function in relation to other forms of life, should be the controlling factor. In recent times the demands of economics have to a great extent usurped this central position in the system, and if we find through our researches that nature insists in the long run in preserving in full measure the well-being of living things, we shall know better how to go forward.
LORD HANKEY: My Lords, I should like to apologize to my noble friend Lord Portsmouth inasmuch as, owing to an official engagement, I could not be here in time to hear his speech. I agree very much with what the last speaker has said about the great importance of research, and research not by one but by a number of Government Departments. In any such research the

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Agricultural Research Council would necessarily play a very leading part, and I do not want to advance one step without saying how regrettable it is that at this moment we should have lost the services of Dr. Topley, the late secretary of the Agricultural Research Council. It seems only a short time since he was the secretary of the Scientific Advisory Council and I was the Chairman, and we delivered ourselves of an immense Report. I was working very closely with him, and among the subjects of the Report, as I duly reported to your Lordships at the time, was some reorganization of the Agricultural Research Council, and Dr. Topley, because of the work he had done on that, was appointed as secretary of the Agricultural Research Council, in which office he was doing the most splendid work, literally up to the moment of his death.
In rising to speak on a question like this, I do not pretend to speak as an expert. I have no broad acres, but in my own tiny patch of England it does happen that I have tried out for about seven years the methods of organic manures, and especially composts, which lie behind this Motion, and I have tried them out with very great success. But one swallow does not make a summer, and I am not attaching any importance whatsoever to that in what I have to say. I am rather one who is very much impressed, and rather disturbed, not only by the speeches made by Lord Teviot and others on October 26 last, but also by a great number of books and pamphlets and speeches which I have read, including one by my noble friend who introduced the Motion, which seems to necessitate inquiry. The point I wish to make is that the only demand here to-day, as I understand it, is for inquiry, which was supported in the last debate by a demand for experiment and research, even if it involved some years. On that question of years, when it is remembered that the researches of Hopkins and the Mellanbys and a great number of others which led to the discoveries on nutrition, took thirty years, we ought not to be dismayed if these researches should take, maybe, ten years. The noble Earl, Lord Portsmouth, in the last debate said possibly twenty years. Until some of these experiments have been made, judgment can be suspended.
What I am going to appeal for to-day is that the two parties should get together as
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to the experiments which would certainly be required for the Royal Commission. If the parties could get together they would not have any difficulty in agreeing on the range of experiments. There is much more common ground to begin with in this matter than is generally realized. As I understand the case of Lord Teviot and his friends, at the bottom of it is the dependence of health on an adequate and well-balanced diet, including the necessary protective foodstuffs required for health. That is the accepted teaching of agricultural scientists and nutritional scientists. There is agreement there. Secondly, it was quite clear from what my noble friend the Duke of Devonshire said in the last debate that there is common ground as to the great importance of humus in the soil. There is common ground also that, whether you have artificials or not, you must have an adequate supply of organic fertilizers. Again, compost is admitted by the supporters of the chemicals to be a very valuable form of organic fertilizer. The composters place it much higher, but nobody denies that it is a valuable form of organic fertilizer. The composters quite agree that other forms of organic manures are of great value, such as farm manure, muck, sheep-folding, and so on. Some people think they do not, but in fact, unless I am greatly mistaken, in the Haughley experiments mentioned in Lady Eve Balfour's book they did use not only compost, but a great deal of these other organic manures.
Then there will be general agreement on the danger of erosion of the soil. Nobody could possibly doubt the danger if they did what I did. I went to Australia to see my father's sheep-run, which he had left somewhere in the 1870's, and it had simply gone, gone to the desert and to rabbits—erosion. There will be general agreement also that the worst offenders are those who, farming in neglect of scientific principles, destroy the fertility of the soil and render it liable to erosion. Then it would be agreed, though I am not quite so sure about this as about the other points, that municipal wastes for the purpose of manufacturing compost and manuring the land should be encouraged as much as possible. Even in that agreed range there is room for a lot of action to be initiated by a Royal Commission or an inquiry.

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May I now come to the main items of disagreement? The first, and far the most important, is the use of some inorganic fertilizers, particularly sulphate of ammonia, which are anathema to the compost school. Running with that, some people have very strong suspicions of the mechanical tractors, which they think crush the earth worms which aerate the soil. The second doubt is as to whether, in fact, compost does give the additional resistance to disease in plants which is claimed. That is very much doubted by some people. The third point of difference—and this is a very important one—is with regard to the claims of the com-posters as to the additional value of food grown on compost and organic fertilizers as compared with the artificials. These, I believe, are the three great points of difference. Even on the most controversial question of all—the question of artificials—there are two points on which, I believe, there must be agreement. One is that artificials have, in fact, produced remarkable results in boosting food production in the present war and in the last war all over the world. The com-posters say the price paid is too high. Perhaps these artificials have been used in too great quantities, and have injured the soil, but they have, in the emergency, produced the goods. The second point is the vital importance of maintaining the chemical industry in the interests of Imperial defence and, some would say, in the interests of having the means of boosting the soil if another emergency should occur.
These are some points where there is probably agreement. I submit that when you think of the advantages obtainable from an inquiry on the agreed points, and of the immense desirability of testing out the very strong prima facie case made, there ought to be an inquiry and there ought also to be experiments. I am quite convinced, from personal investigation, that some of the experiments have already been initiated not as part of this theory, but as part of the general work of the Agricultural Research Council. I say so because I made some search in the White Paper on Agricultural Research in Great Britain (Cmd. 6421 of 1943). Scattered through that Paper there were many subjects, I noticed, which are mentioned in all the books on this matter. They would have
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to be, so to speak, put under one head, co-ordinated, brought together, to be of value, but a great deal of research has been made and is being made. My suggestion, whether the Motion is agreed to or not, is that as soon as possible after the return from his travels of the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, who is Chairman of the Agricultural Research Council, the parties should be got together, Lord Teviot and his friends should meet the representatives of the Agricultural Research Council and the Medical Research Council (and I hope some Minister would take a hand), and they should agree at any rate upon the first stage in the researches and the arrangements on which the last speaker laid considerable stress.
LORD GEDDES: My Lords, I rise to support the demand put forward by Lord Teviot that, if possible, there should be associated with the work of the Royal Commission research into what is really the subject of the vitality and reproductive capacity of the men and women of the country in so far as that relates to food. The speech we have just heard from Lord Hankey covers a good deal of the ground on which I had intended to address your Lordships. There is no doubt whatever that you can produce from the fields a great quantity of food by the use of chemical fertilizers. That is undoubted. You can boost production, and that is what I think has blinded a great many people to the real problem. The food that we eat and the foodstuffs which we absorb into our body fluids, and through them into our tissues, are divided sharply into two parts, possibly more but certainly sharply into two parts—the part which is required as a fuel to provide the energy for movement, for all those activities in which we as men and women can indulge, and the part which is required to repair and replace and recreate our actual bodies themselves. Now it seems pretty clear that so far as the fuels are concerned they are not necessarily of such fine and precise composition in order to be useful to us as are those portions of our food which go to the building or rebuilding of our own bodies and tissues.
There is a very long history behind this controversy. It goes back for nearly a century and it has been made a very difficult controversy to follow by the dominance for so many years of the German school in connexion with biology.

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The German school—Virchow, Schwann, Liebig—laid the emphasis upon the cell out of which in their millions our bodies are created and they regarded food for the cell as all that was required. Apart from that, and really obliterated and eclipsed by the German school, very likely as a result of the Franco-Prussian War and the prestige the Germans got through that war, there was a French school of which Professor Béchamp was the leader working at Montpellier in the fifties of last century. This school had a quite different idea about the structure of the body and the vitality and vigour of the body, and I think it was a great pity that as a result of the Franco-Prussian War and various things that followed it in the 'seventies a great deal of the work of Professor Béchamp was entirely ignored and overlooked.
One of the great contributions he made, a contribution with which I have been familiar now for over thirty years, to the whole idea of life, was that the cell was not the unit of life, but that there was a much smaller, more minute unit of life which he called in his later reports to the Academy of Science the micro-zymases but which in his earlier reports he had always referred to as the "little bodies." They really are composed of little living bodies. No one knows very much about them although any competent microscopist is thoroughly familiar with them in the practical field of the microscope. These little living bodies, which exist in organic matter even long after it has been dead as an organism, have the power quite definitely (there is nothing mystical about them) of organizing life, because they are themselves alive. The only proof I can give you that they are alive is that you can kill them, and I do not think you could kill a thing that was not alive. These little living bodies are not present in the artificial chemical manures, and it may be that the German school, which we have in this country very largely followed in biology for many years, overlooked something of great importance, and it may be that it is necessary for our human bodies, if they are to maintain their full vitality, to be receiving in their food a continuous supply of these little living bodies.
We all get a certain number of them every day, but it may well be—and this is the point that is really at issue between
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the schools of thought—that because those little living bodies are not present in sufficient quantities in a man's or woman's food he or she begins to lose the physical capacity for vitality. And that is the point at issue. It is not really a matter of theory or mysticism at all. There is a real divergence of opinion between two schools which have existed for a long time, one of which has become dominant and out of whose practice and beliefs the whole of the chemical fertilizer industry has arisen, and has been able to show results of the most remarkable kind in boosting production in the plant's growth and those portions of the food which are required as fuels. It may well be that the composters have got hold—perhaps without knowing it—of the real source of vitality. They are the most extraordinary things, these little bodies. I do not know how many of your Lordships are accustomed to handle a microscope, but if you are and you can get in a dark field of illumination a drop of your own blood you can see them. They shine like stars. In the course of this week I have seen a great many drops of blood under the microscope and the difference between people fed in different ways and in different states of health is quite extraordinary. That is where this controversy really leads. It does not lead to differences on this point or that point or the other point in agriculture. It leads straight to one point, and one point only: Is the supply of these little living bodies in the food essential to the continued vitality of human beings or is it not? That is the research that is wanted and I cannot imagine that anybody dealing with the question of reproduction—it is a question of vitality—is going to overlook the fact that there is that great outstanding question in the pathological field.
A great many things have happened recently to shake the predominance of the German school. It no longer carries the full conviction which it did when I was a student forty-five years ago. Once again there is no proof at all, and I trust that nothing I have said will be taken as meaning that this thing is true; but there is undoubtedly the possibility, many think the extreme probability, that the presence of these little living bodies—micro-zymases, as Professor Béchamp called them—in the food is essential to vitality in health. They cannot come into the food grown on the fields unless there are

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a great many little living bodies of that sort in the soil, because they come from the soil. They cannot apparently get into the soil unless they come from living matter before. Whether they are things that can multiply I have not the slightest knowledge. You find them in the most antique remnants of life. You actually can find them still existing in the chalk which has been formed as a rock for millions of years. I do not know whether they are the original living bodies that were there when the marine animals were there or not, but it has been proved that we can actually use these little living bodies out of the chalk in a pure sugar solution, with every antiseptic precaution taken to prevent any inflow of other germs from outside, to start organization in a sugar solution which is sterile and dead. That, as I see it, is the problem. It is a purely scientific problem that is presented to us, and it is one which I believe can be answered with a combination of research by the Medical Research Council and the Agricultural Research Council and of observation carefully conducted and carefully checked on the people of the country fed on different foods. Right at the back of all this controversy that goes on there is this Franco-German evidence. If we can get that settled we shall know where we are.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: My Lords, I hardly like to be silent on such a subject as that which has been raised by the noble Earl. I think the impression that all your Lordships must have derived from the very illuminating speeches to which we have listened is that there is a great mass of most important scientific research which ought to be carried out at the earliest possible moment in the best interests of human health. Whether this particular consideration—namely, the relation between what I prefer to call the morbid condition of soil, plant, animal and man—comes within the terms of reference, or can be brought within the terms of reference, of the Royal Commission over which I am glad to know the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack is going to preside, is, I think, matter of considerable doubt. Whether the terms of reference can be amplified, as I for one should like, in order to introduce this particular aspect of scientific inquiry which may or may not bear on
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the reduction of the birth-rate, is a question which the noble and learned Viscount is better qualified to answer than I am. But even if this particular inquiry cannot come properly within the terms of reference of the Royal Commission, I think—here I follow in the trend of thought of the last two speakers—there ought to be an inquiry, which by the way can be rapidly pursued and the results of which might bear very considerably upon the important question with which the Royal Commission will be asked to deal.
After all, it was only just over one hundred years ago that our first agricultural research station, Rothamsted, was established in this country, largely if not entirely owing to the enterprise and vision of Sir John Bennet Lawes and his able colleague, Professor Joseph Henry Gilbert. At that time it was assumed that the only science which bore materially upon the nutrition of plants was chemistry. Since that date, and particularly during the last thirty years, we have realized more and more the mistake that was then made, and physics, bacteriology and micro-biology are known to have as much to do with the growth of plants, including, of course, food plants, as the science of chemistry. Therefore we ought to keep an open mind and be prepared if and when this further inquiry takes place to accept the theory that there is some inter-relation between soil, plant, animal and man which very materially affects the health of the last-named.
Reference has been made to the passing away of Dr. Topley. We must all seriously regret that. It is very remarkable that the number of scientific agriculturists or agricultural scientists who have during the past few years passed to their rest is so large. There is one whose name has not been mentioned, and that is the late Sir John Farmer. He was a great biologist and did perhaps more than any man in recent years to draw attention to the enormous importance that the science of biology enjoys or should enjoy in relation to the nutrition of plant and animals, if not of man.
I spent five years in a remarkably fertile country, the Dominion of New Zealand. In that country there are more serious soil and water deficiencies, so far as we know, than have been found in any other fertile country in the world. Now, there is no

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doubt whatever that, in that country, a certain number of ailments are deemed to be traceable to soil or water deficiencies, deficiencies, that is, in something essential to human health. But, so far as I know, with but a single exception, there are no instances in which it has been definitely and conclusively proved that such is the case, that cause and effect are at work in such matters. The one exception relates to the prevalence of goitre, which is traceable to lack of iodine. I suppose that in few countries in the world is there more goitre to be found than in a certain area in the north of the South Island of New Zealand, and there the artificial addition of iodine to table salt or to water has proved an absolutely certain preventive of the disease. If that is the case in regard to goitre, surely it is more than likely that something of the same kind applies to other soil deficiencies as producing a condition of human morbidity.
All I wish, really, to emphasize, in view of our having had two important debates in this House on the subject, and of the serious view which so many of our own experts here take in this matter, is that without delay there should be instituted some definite scientific inquiry into this question of the inter-relation of morbid conditions between the soil, plant, animal and man. I feel, for my own part, as the late very learned Sir Daniel Hall felt, that the case is not proven, and until the case is proven I cannot think that we are justified in asking the Royal Commission to pursue this particular line of inquiry unless and until their terms of reference are amplified so as to embrace it.
I must apologize to the noble Earl, Lord Portsmouth, for not being in my place when he opened this debate, because we always listen to him with very great interest. I may say that the agricultural community feels very greatly indebted to him in that he, among the younger practical agriculturists of this country, is taking such a very prominent interest in the welfare of agriculture, and in the relation of science to its well-being and progressive development. I venture to hope that this debate will not pass unnoticed, that the value of the arguments which have been put forward in the course of it will not be unrecognized by the noble Viscount who will preside—
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as we all feel assured—with great ability over this Royal Commission, and that, in one way or another, the considerations which have been raised will be taken into account.
LORD SMELL: My Lords, your Lordships will sympathize with the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, in the indisposition which has kept him away from your Lordships' House to-day. He would, I am sure, have returned with renewed enthusiasm to the subject which he raised on the 26th October last. But in the noble Earl, Lord Portsmouth, Lord Teviot found a worthy substitute, and the noble Earl and others who have spoken to-day have restated and extended the considerations which were advanced during the last debate in your Lordships' House. The contention was, and is, that the use of artificial fertilizers instead of natural humus is the cause of much of the prevalent disease in man, in animal and in plant. My noble friend Lord Geddes, on the last occasion, related faulty nutrition, through the poverty of the soil, to the loss of fertility in man and to the fall in the birth-rate. Well, that is a most important subject, and it requires close and, perhaps, prolonged study before a definite decision can be made upon it. But it is all to the good that groups of students should be examining this matter and that it should be considered by Parliament and other bodies.
Your Lordships will notice that, in the debate which has taken place to-day, there has been singularly little argument devoted to the contention that the problem should be referred to the Royal Commission. We have had a good deal of philosophy, medical and otherwise, but very little has been said in relation to that specific point which is the reason for the Motion being put upon the Order Paper. The noble Earl, Lord Portsmouth, said that there was something faulty in our nutrition. Well, he is not the only person who, during the last four or five years, has said that with a certain amount of feeling. But, when the attempt is to relate malnutrition to lack of human fertility, I have in my mind the fact—at least I think it is the fact—that the largest families were always to be found in the poorer section of the community, that is in the section where malnutrition was greatest, and that in proportion as the standard of nutrition rose

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you got a reduction in the size of families. My noble friend Lord Geddes quite properly said that, in his judgment, this was a purely scientific problem, and the question that arises is whether a purely scientific problem can be dealt with by the Royal Commission which has been proposed.
The response of the Government to the arguments adduced on the last occasion was given by my noble friend the Duke of Norfolk, and I have nothing to add, really, to the statement which he then made. The Government reply, as stated by the noble Duke, was that the Minister of Health at that time had no evidence of ill-health in the community due to the use of artificial fertilizers in food production, and also that the scientific evidence available pointed to no antagonism in agriculture between artificial fertilizers and natural humus, but to the beneficial results of both in their proper place, at their proper time and in the right proportions. He added that the points raised in the debate would be brought to the notice of the Ministries concerned—the Ministries of Agriculture, of Health and of Food. That view of the Government still stands. I can repeat what the noble Duke said on the last occasion, and say that the arguments advanced to-day will be noted by the Departments concerned.
If I may be permitted to make a personal observation, it is this. The fall in the birth-rate may be due to many causes, of which that raised by the noble Earl to-day may well be one; but I suggest that it is unscientific, and perhaps unsafe, to attribute that fall in the birthrate to one cause alone. There may be, as I have said, many causes, and among them we may be sure that social considerations and reactions will count for a very great deal. For good or for ill—I am not here to say which—it is probable that the day of large families is over, at least for our time. Children may be and are a source of great joy, and of great consolation in old age, but the people of our time no longer believe with the Psalmist that that man is happy who has his quiver full of them. They have other views, right or wrong. Those factors have a great deal to do with fertility, and therefore it is probably unscientific, as I say, to associate the problem with one factor alone.
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With regard to the Royal Commission, in drawing up the terms of reference, the Government were careful to make them so comprehensive as to exclude nothing which might have a bearing on the present trends of population. Perhaps your Lordships will permit me to remind you of those terms of reference:
"To examine the facts relating to the present population trends in Great Britain; to investigate the causes of those trends and to consider their probable consequences; to consider what measure, if any, should be taken in the national interest to influence the future trends of population; and to make recommendations."
Your Lordships will note that the Commission is asked to investigate the causes of the present trends of population, and it may be that certain methods of soil cultivation are amongst those causes. If the Royal Commission so decides, it can under its terms of reference examine that question; but the Commission must be absolutely free to decide upon the scope of its inquiries, and it must itself determine the evidence which it shall receive.
It has been admitted over and over again in the debate to-day that the subject is complicated, and that it raises very obscure and remote questions. If the Report of the Royal Commission is to wait until there has been a thoroughgoing examination of all the problems concerned, we may have to wait a very considerable time for it. I think that the noble Earl, Lord Portsmouth, suggested that twenty years might be a reasonable time, and Lord Geddes suggested ten years. If my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor feels equal to sitting in the chair of the Royal Commission for the next twenty years, well and good; but the noble and learned Viscount has had the advantage of hearing what your Lordships have had to say, and he will have noted the various suggestions which have been made. The field of inquiry is a very large one, and, while excluding nothing that it would be helpful to examine, at the same time the Commission will have to see to it, as my noble friend Lord Addison said on the last occasion, that its inquiries are kept within the scope necessary to enable it to get on with its work with due rapidity.
LORD HANKEY: My Lords, with your permission I should like to ask whether the noble Lord can add a word in reply to my appeal that he should get together

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those who have raised this question with the Government Departments and in particular the research departments concerned, with a view to starting the experiments and the tests.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, with the permission of the House I would recall to my noble friend Lord Hankey that I said hat the suggestions which have been made will be put before the Departments concerned and duly considered. I cannot, of course, answer his question.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Snell, who has just replied for the Government, has not ruled out the possibility of research, but on the side suggested by my noble friends Lord Hankey and Lord Bledisloe he has not given us much encouragement. I have forgotten which Governmental phrase it is—whether "active consideration" or "urgent consideration"—which means that something may happen, but I do hope that consideration of the priority kind will be given to this matter by the Departments concerned. If I may be allowed to correct one or two misapprehensions on the part of the noble Lord who has just replied, I do not think that any of my noble friends who have spoken on this Motion said that the use of artificial manures is the cause; we said that it may be a cause, and we want it investigated. Secondly, I should like to correct what seems to me a misinterpretation of the term "malnutrition." We realize that not only is there under-nutrition but there is also faulty nutrition or malnutrition. Under-nutrition is quite different from malnutrition. I do hope that this consideration will be active, not only from the noble and learned Viscount's point of view as Chairman of the Royal Commission, but from that of the scientific and research departments of the Government itself. I beg leave to withdraw.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

SERVICE PAY AND CONDITIONS
VISCOUNT ELIBANK VISCOUNT ELIBANK had given Notice that he would ask His Majesty's Government when they will be in a position to make a statement as to the conditions of service in respect to length of engagement, pay and non-effective
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benefits for the three Armed Forces: firstly for the period after the defeat of Germany and during the continuance of the war against Japan, and secondly after all the Axis Powers have been defeated; and move for Papers.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this is really the third occasion upon which I have raised the issues mentioned in my Motion. But upon the last occasion, the 15th December, the noble Lord, Lord Snell, who replied for the Government, pointed out to me certain difficulties in answering questions at the present time concerning the future size and requirements of the Armed Services, not only in connexion with the war with Japan, after the Hitler war is concluded, but also after both wars are over. I said on that occasion that I felt there were difficulties, and I am prepared to say now that I have accepted the reasonings and difficulties as presented by the noble Lord on that occasion. I do not propose to pursue that part of my argument today, but must leave that to a future time. What I do wish to bring to the notice of the Government is the necessity for making plans for better provision for pay for those in the Armed Services who will be called upon to serve in the Far East after the Hitler war is over, as well as those who will be called upon to serve in the Armed Services in the post-war period.
There are two reasons why we should have an answer to that question as quickly as possible. The first—and I mentioned this in December—is that there is a considerable number of individuals, both male and female, who would like to make the Services their profession, but obviously they wish to know what security they will have, what their pay, pensions and, as they are technically called, non-effective benefits will be, the length of their engagements, and how all this will compare with conditions in civilian life, where they have been promised work, food and homes for all. I think this is a very natural wish, and it is a wish which should be gratified as soon as possible, otherwise many of them, both men and women, will be caught up in the maelstrom of demobilization, and their services—valuable services for they are trained already in war—will be lost, not only to us in the Japanese war but also in the post-war period.
The second reason—and that applies in the first instance to those who will take part in the war with Japan after Hitler is defeated—is that it is not equitable to ask our men and women to go out to the Far East and serve under conditions there at rates of pay which will be infinitely lower than those enjoyed by the men alongside whom they will be serving. It is true that this is happening to-day, in Europe and in the Middle East, and there is a great deal of discontent about that. But that, after that period of the war is over, they should be asked to go the long distance to the Far East and serve under the same conditions as over here is, I believe, not right. Let me illustrate what I mean as far as pay is concerned. I have looked this up, and I find that an Australian soldier gets 8s. 6d. plus 2S. per day, that is, including his deferred pay, 1os. 6d. a day altogether. A New Zealander gets 7s. 6d. a day; a Canadian gets 1 dollar 30 cents, which I understand at present exchange over here is somewhere about 5s. 9d. to 6s. a day. Our soldiers get 3s. plus 6d. deferred pay, or 3s. 6d. altogether. I admit that there are certain differences in currencies, depreciated currencies, for instance, so far as Australia and New Zealand are concerned to the extent of about 25 per cent.; but the discrepancy between the figures I have given and the amount paid to our soldiers is a very large one indeed.
And this does not only apply to the soldiers, but to the other two Services. I find, for instance, in the Navy that an ordinary seaman receives 2s. plus two sixpences, including the war bonus, or 3s. a day altogether, to which is added is. a day after one year's service. So far as the Royal Air Force is concerned, the rank that compares with the private soldier is the second-class aircraftman who receives 3s. plus 6d. deferred pay. I am not going to suggest to-day what I think the increase should be, because no doubt if you increase the pay of the lower ranks you will have to give increases right through. I do not wish to embarrass the Government in their calculations and considerations of the matter. As I said on a former occasion, I would much prefer seeing the Government come forward with their proposals, so as to enable us to accept them or to make such fair criticisms upon them as we might think fit. But I do wish to
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urge that in the Far East war the increases should be commensurate with the conditions which our men and women will have to face there, that is, quite apart from the rates of pay drawn by the soldiers and the other Services of the overseas Dominions and the United States.
I wonder how many of your Lordships realize what these conditions are. Probably few, if any, of your Lordships have visited Papua and the islands of the Western Pacific, or know the jungle conditions of Malaya and Burma. I do. In my early days I spent nearly two years in British New Guinea—now called Papua. I know Port Moresby and the mountainous jungle area behind it, and the malaria-stricken mangrove swamps of the coast, the insects and the diseases; I have suffered from them all. I know also the jungle areas of Malaya, and I say without hesitation that those of our Armed Forces to whom is entrusted the heavy and patriotic task of assisting in expelling Japanese from our British Protectorates and other places which they have attacked and occupied will be deserving of the most generous treatment by way of adequate additional allowances for their services. Japan for nearly fifteen years, knowing our hazardous position in Europe owing to Germany's rearmament and our disarmament, has consistently made us eat humble pie in the Far East or, to put it in her own phraseology, "made us lose face." She followed this up with the most treacherous war of aggression, followed by the most, ghastly and savage treatment of prisoners of war and even civilian internees. We cannot stop, any more than can the Americans, the Australians and the New Zealanders, until Japan is utterly defeated and has paid forfeit for her infamous deeds. There is one thing which I believe the people of this country will demand, and that is that the men and women in our Armed Forces who are going to participate in the Japanese defeat shall be reasonably compensated for the conditions which they will endure and for the sacrifices they will be called upon to make. I beg to move for Papers.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD CROFT): My Lords, when my noble friend last raised this question, and again to-day, he gave the impression that no thought was being given to the vital matter which he has raised in debate. I should like therefore to give him

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some assurance. As a matter of fact the Services—and here, of course, I can speak more intimately for the War Office—in spite of the almost overwhelming pressure of war are not only giving thought to this problem but are getting right down to the subject. I must remind him that in addition to the problem of the war in Europe we have the urgent one of making plans for an army for the occupation of enemy territories, and at the same time of sustaining the war in the Far East until final victory is won. Then there is the outstanding work of demobilization which confronts us and which in itself requires great preparation and foresight.
In spite of many unknown factors, preparations for all these immense undertakings are going forward. Each requires zeal and a concentration of work by all those who are called upon to make the preparation. In spite of all this pressure of second priorities, if I may so describe them—the first priority being victory—the problems of the post-war Army are being kept before us continually but all the time we are confronted by unknown factors. These include the ending of the war in Europe, the ending of the war in the Far East, the possibility of any recrudescence of trouble in a disturbed world, and also what part the Dominions may play in the future defence of the Commonwealth. We cannot, therefore, present at this stage any estimate as to what the final requirements of the Services will be.
I can, however, say with confidence that we appreciate the need which he stressed both to-day and in a former debate that it must be for no lack of a plan that we lose the 'Opportunity of retaining in the Services all those officers and men of proved merit and of suitable age who desire to make the science of arms their permanent profession. Obviously the first care of the Services will be to retain the pick of these tried warriors if they will remain in the Services. It is a natural corollary that the future conditions of service must be considered with this object in mind. I can assure my noble friend that we have no intention of allowing service to the country to be regarded as a mere substitute for employment which men cannot secure elsewhere. We want, and we must have, the best brains, ability and physique for the specialized work of the modern Services.
I would like also to say how much I welcome the opinion of the noble Viscount
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that the Services should be brought into the picture as part of our reconstruction programme. Whatever the size of the Services required may be, and it is generally admitted that they will be large, it is a factor of importance in the rebuilding of our country and it is therefore desirable that it should be taken into account in all measures for the replanning of our life in the post-war period in order that youth may be able to consider the Services as a career. For many years we attempted to influence the world for peace. We passed resolutions and we made bold statements to the world, incurring hostility in so doing, but completely failed to lealize that an active diplomacy without power ends in disaster. As one who consistently, and sometimes in very small company, advocated that view and fought every election for another place on those principles of security—not without success—as the supreme question in the life of our nation, I welcome the authoritative statements which come from many quarters with unanimous concord and emphasize that "never again" must we allow a similar position to arise.
This is a comforting fact to those who like the noble Viscount realize the need for looking ahead and I hope a definite encouragement to all in the Services to believe that the fatal habit of disbanding a large part of the machinery of defence after the war is won will certainly not be followed on this occasion. Defence has been proved to be of far more importance than ease, comfort or opulence. The margin between life and death in our existence has been on this occasion too narrow, and Parliament will feel it has a solemn duty to perform in placing the safety of the State before every other consideration. Finally, the noble Viscount will realize that the permanent policy of national defence rests with Parliament, and for me or anyone else to make any declaration or prophecy at this stage as to the system of service upon which Parliament will be called upon to decide would, of course, be both premature and improper. I am entitled, however, to express the hope that our youth, which in this struggle has learnt the real meaning and value of service and duty to their country and fellow citizens, may have opportunities of choosing or continuing service with all the dignity which should

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attach to it and under conditions in every respect worthy of a profession in which everything, even life, is offered for the common weal and the preservation of peace in the days to come.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for the terms of his reply in so far as it shows that His Majesty's Government or the Departments concerned have got this matter in hand and are not overlooking it. I feel quite sure that those in the Services who wish to continue will be very glad to hear the public statement made to-day in your Lordships' House that their conditions after the war are forming the subject of very close consideration by the different Departments and by His Majesty's Government. There is only one point which I confess myself not quite satisfied upon and that is that the noble Lord made no reference to the question of increased allowances or pay for those who are going to serve in the Far East after the European war is over. That question was particularly mentioned in my Motion and I did not gather that the noble Lord made any reference to it whatsoever. I would like to ask him whether it was overlooked or whether in the words which he used he meant to convey that that side of my Motion was being dealt with in the same way as that which referred to the post-war Army service.
LORD CROFT: It was meant to be covered in my general words that all these questions are now under definite consideration.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: So far as the Far East is concerned?
LORD CROFT: All.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I have nothing more to add except to thank the noble Lord for his answer. At some future time I may raise the question again but in the meantime I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

RETIRED ARMY OFFICERS' PENSIONS.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK VISCOUNT ELIBANK also had the following Notice on the Paper: To ask His Majesty's Government, whether they
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are aware of the great hardship now suffered by retired Army Officers, by reason of the fact that since their rates of pension were stabilized in 1935, no increases have been granted to them notwithstanding the fact that the index cost of living is to-day 45 per cent. higher than it was in 1935 and that incidental expenses of living have also risen proportionately; and whether they will accordingly consider an immediate revision of these pensions with a view to bringing them into fairer relation to the present-day cost of living; and to move for Papers.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I am sorry to inflict a second Resolution upon your Lordships to-day but as it refers to a Service matter I thought it just as well to put it down on the same day. Actually it refers to Army officers' pensions. 1 am raising this issue on behalf of a section of the community who have been very hard hit during the war. I want to put the case as briefly as possible and to do so I should like to refer shortly to what actually happened. In 1919, after the last war, the pay and pensions of Army officers were raised, subject to revision, on the 1st July, 1924. At the latter date it was arranged that a further revision might take place every three years in accordance with the rise or fall in the index cost of living. The point is that on the 1st July, 1924, pensions were cut by 5½ per cent. and by the 1st October, 1931—there had been no revision in the meantime—the pensions were cut by 11 per cent. No doubt that was due to some extent to the economic blizzard through which we were passing at the time. In 1935 the Government stabilized all pensions at 9½- per cent. lower than the 1919 rate on the assumption, presumably, that the index cost had reached stability. I do not understand why the Government should have believed that at that moment we had reached stability because all those who had not got their heads buried in the sand—and I hope His Majesty's Government at any rate behind the scenes had not got their heads buried in the sands—knew that Germany was rearming and that another war was bound to take place within another few years. Nobody knew exactly when it was going to take place. Some said 1939, others 1940 or 1941. But that it was going to take place everybody with any knowledge at all knew was a certainty. If that was the case, how was

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it possible in 1935 to say that pensions should be stabilized? Obviously, if war was coming the cost of living was bound to rise. In 1938, I understand certain increases were made to officers' pensions, especially in the higher scales, but some of the ranks did not benefit by that at all.
But the real point is that since the stabilization of officers' pensions in 1935 the index cost of living has gone up by no less than 45 per cent. And not only has the index cost of living gone up, but the other ancillary costs of living have done so as well. Taxation has doubled, local rates have risen, medical fees have increased, the cost of medicines has increased, every kind of clothing. has increased in cost; in fact, one might say that in some cases the ancillary forms of living from which officers cannot escape have gone up, not by 45 per cent., but in many cases by 100 per cent. Yet in spite of this no steps have been taken, so far as I am aware—and I am going to ask my noble friend Lord Croft in his reply to tell me whether any steps are proposed—to meet these hard cases. The result is that many of these unfortunate retired officers are living in a state of great anxiety mentally, financially and otherwise, owing to their difficult financial conditions. Very few of them can obtain other employment. They are not like other people in the community who can obtain other employment. They have these fixed incomes and there they stay living always on a reduced scale.
I would like to add this. I am quite aware that if the officers' pensions are raised there may be, and probably will be, a demand for all civil servants' pensions to be raised, but I venture to suggest that His Majesty's Government have to face up to that situation and that it is now time the Treasury should admit that there has been inflation in the country. Wages have risen, the cost of goods has risen, the cost of everything has gone up. Consequently there has been a form of inflation going on the whole time. It has been going on for years, but more rapidly in the last two or three years, with the result that while many people are benefiting by higher wages the unfortunate pensioners are left as they were. I venture to suggest to the Treasury that, although this may be a big lump for them to swallow, they should swallow it. They
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must admit this inflation, face up to the position and assist these pensioners by putting them on a proper living basis. That is my story and I venture to ask His Majesty's Government to do what they can to relieve these cases. I urge that it should not be taken up piecemeal and that the cases of all officers should not be dealt with, as has been suggested, by taking out necessitous cases and dealing with them more or less on a charity basis. The whole basis of Army officers' pensions should be reconsidered and reviewed and revised in the light of conditions which exist to-day and are likely to exist for a great many years to come. I beg to move.
LORD CROFT: My Lords, the rates of retired pay of officers of the Forces were stabilized in 1935 in common with the pay and pensions of Crown servants generally, at rates somewhat higher than would have been payable had the adjustment been strictly in accordance with the cost of living at that time. This settlement continued to be beneficial to retired officers until shortly after the outbreak of the present war. The Government have from time to time since the outbreak of the war had under consideration the position of retired officers in relation to the increase in the cost of living. Having regard to the large number of other persons who are dependent wholly or partly on fixed incomes, they have not hitherto felt justified in selecting retired officers for special relief at the expense of the community at large. Their policy of price fixing, rationing and food subsidies, undertaken at considerable expense from public funds, has prevented any considerable increase in the cost of living such as occurred during the last war and has afforded great relief to the whole class of persons living on fixed incomes.
They have, however, recently given this question further consideration, and, as announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 3rd December last, they have come to the conclusion that some measure of relief is called for in those cases in which the war-time increase in the cost of living has resulted in really severe hardship. They are, accordingly, undertaking as expeditiously as possible the framing of special measures to this end, and particulars of their proposals will be announced at an early date. The position of Service officers on retired pay

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has naturally come under review with that of State pensioners generally. I think I should call the noble Viscount's attention to an error in the figures in his question as it appeared on the Order Paper. The index cost of living to-day is not 45 per cent. higher than it was during 1935 when the fixed rate of pensions began. I think that misapprehension is probably due to the fact that the noble Viscount did not remember that the index figure in 1935 was 155. That makes the percentage increase now 30 per cent. and not 45 per cent.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: I thank the noble Lord for his answer. He certainly has given encouragement, and we can only wait and see what the results will be. As to my error in stating the percentage, I would like to remark that the figure given by the noble Lord makes the
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case a little better for the Government but does not make it much better for the officers. The rise is still 30 per cent., and if you take into consideration other expenditure which they have to incur, the increased cost they have to bear will work out somewhere around 45 to 50 per cent., or perhaps even more. However, I do not want to continue that argument. What I wish to do now is to thank the noble Lord for his answer and to say that I am glad to hear the Government are really looking into the question. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

PRIZE SALVAGE BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
House adjourned.