Sitting of 17 March 1943

Preamble
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  FRENCH COASTAL AREAS (BOMBING)
  Mr. Caryasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in the planning of the air attacks made on Lorient in the latter part of January, due consideration was given to the suffering and hardships inflicted upon French civilians; and whether the Government are satisfied that the importance of the military objectives attained justified raids on a scale and of a severity generally reserved for objectives in enemy territory?
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): As I stated in this House on 11th February, the task of overcoming the U-boats has been given first priority in all the British and American plans. The destruction of U-boat bases is an essential part of this strategy. Very heavy blows have already been delivered by the R.A.F. and the United States Army Air Corps against the U-boat bases, both in Germany and in occupied France. We have repeatedly urged the French population to leave coastal areas. A large part of the civil population of Brest and Lorient have in fact been evacuated, and the Germans have attempted to conceal the severity of the raids from the German crews expected to use Lorient. The qualities of resistance displayed by the French people day by day are well known, and I have no doubt that they will understand that operations such as the bombing of Lorient will bring victory nearer and thus hasten the day of France's deliverance.
  Mr. Stokes: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any direct evidence to show that the bombs do break through the U-boat kennels, as they are called?
  The Prime Minister: I should have to have notice of that Question.

  PEACE AIMS
  Wing-Commander Jamesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the present trend of German propaganda, namely, that a German defeat means a Bolshevised Europe, the Government will issue and secure prominence for its announcement over overseas radio services, a White Paper, preferably in association with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the other Powers of the United Nations, emphasising their pledges that, as set out in the Atlantic Charter and elsewhere, complete liberty to settle their own form of government without external influence is to be afforded to all countries, occupied, unoccupied, satellite and even enemy when purged?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think it is necessary at the present time to add to the declarations that have been made by the British and United States Governments and by Premier Stalin on behalf of the U.S.S.R.
  Wing-Commander James: Having regard to the fact that this propaganda is having a considerable effect here, will the right hon. Gentleman see that further publicity on our overseas broadcasting services is given to that announcement?
  The Prime Minister: I think my answer already covers that Supplementary Question.
  Miss Rathbone: Will the Prime Minister consider that, if there is any further publicity, it will have a greater effect by showing that the populations of enemy countries have something to hope for through our victory?

  MADAME CHIANG KAI-SHEK (VISIT TO GREAT BRITAIN)
  Mr. Dribergasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any further statement to make on the possibility of a visit to this country of Madame Chiang Kai-shek?
  The Prime Minister: I am not yet able to add anything to the statement on this subject made by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary on 24th February.
  Mr. Driberg: If it is correct, as rumoured, that Madame Chiang Kai-shek's health may prevent her from crossing the Atlantic, will the right hon. Gentleman convey to her the disappointment and sympathy which will be felt widely here, and will he consider whether it would be possible to invite one of her two brilliant sisters to visit us instead?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think that this arises immediately out of the Question.
  Mr. John Dugdale: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that nobody would get a more spontaneous welcome than this lady if she did come?
  The Prime Minister: That has already been made abundantly clear.

  WAR CRIMINALS (LIST)
  Captain Cunningham-Reidasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether arrangements can be made for Members of Parliament to inspect the list of war criminals?
  The Prime Minister: This is a matter which concerns not only His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom but all the other Governments participating in the United Nations Commission, to whom the available information regarding war crimes is to be submitted. The answer is therefore in the negative.
  Captain Cunningham-Reid: Will the Prime Minister inform the House what Department is compiling this list in this country?
  The Prime Minister: I will, but I am not sure myself whether it is under the Foreign Office or whether it has been devolved upon any special authority, but I can easily ascertain that if a Question is put down.
  Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Will the right hon. Gentleman prepare a list of the home-grown war criminals?
  Commander Agnew: Can the Prime Minister give an assurance that the hon. and gallant Member for St. Marylebone (Captain Cunningham-Reid) is not on the list?

  FRENCH NORTH AFRICA (POLITICAL PRISONERS AND INTERNEES)
  Mr. Gallacherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has considered the resolution by the factory committee of the Lea Bridge Works, A. C. Cossor, sent to him by the hon. Member for West Fife, demanding that the Government take immediate steps to obtain the release of all members of the International Brigade and other anti-Fascists at present interned in North Africa; and what statement he has to make?
  The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add at present to the statement on this subject made by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary on 3rd March making it clear that His Majesty's Government are endeavouring to obtain the release of all political prisoners interned in North Africa, including of course members of the International Brigade.

  EGYPTIAN POLICE (BRITISH PERSONNEL)
  Mr. Astorasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has considered representations made to him regarding the pay and conditions of service of British officers and constables who have been retained in the Egyptian police for the duration of the war; and whether he can now make a statement?
  Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. These representations have been considered in consultation with His Majesty's Ambassador in Egypt, on whose recommendation sanction has now been given to the granting of certain allowances about which I am informing my hon. Friend in detail.
  Mr. Astor: In thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his very satisfactory answer, may I ask whether he realises the invaluable part played by these officers and constables in the good relations between Egypt and the British Army?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Aircraft Accident, Whittlesea
    Mr. Thorneasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can give any information in connection with the aeroplane that crashed into two semi-detached

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    villas near Whittlesea; how many people were killed; and whether compensation will be paid?
    The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): This regrettable accident, the causes of which are under investigation, occurred during the night of 4th-5th March, when a Wellington aircraft of the Royal Air Force crashed in the course of a training flight. Four civilians and four members of the crew were killed; the fifth member of the crew was seriously injured. Two cottages were damaged, one of which was demolished. The question of compensation for personal injuries is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions. Claims for compensation in respect of the damage to property will be considered by my Department. The House will wish to join with me in expressing sympathy with the relatives of those who were killed and with the injured.

    Personnel (Walking Arm-in-Arm with Women)
    Mr. Walter Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that Royal Air Force personnel are forbidden to walk arm-in-arm with their wives when off duty and on leave; and whether he will cancel this instruction which is resented by the personnel concerned and in no way assists the war effort?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The instruction that R.A.F. personnel should be discouraged from walking arm-in-arm with women in public has been withdrawn. There was never any formal regulation to this effect.
    Mr. Ivor Thomas: Is that known as "supporting arms"?
    Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Does the right hon. Gentleman ever take any disciplinary action against commanding officers or persons responsible for issuing such foolish orders as this?
    Sir A. Sinclair: There is no question of disciplinary action in a case of this kind. There was an instruction which was not well worded. It was brought to my attention, and it was altered at once, and I am sure that the House will be satisfied.
    Mr. Walkden: Can the right hon. Gentleman say who actually authorised this order?
    Sir A. Sinclair: No, Sir, I cannot say who authorised the instruction. It is a question of the wording of an instruction which has now been put right, and nobody has suffered from it.
    Mr. W. Edwards: Could not the right hon. Gentleman issue some form of instruction to commanding officers in order that these matters shall not arise again and that in the main men and women in the Services shall be treated as human beings and not as children?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I cannot issue an order that nobody in the Royal Air Force shall ever make the slightest mistake of any sort. For the instruction, as originally framed and for the alteration which has been made, I take full responsibility.

    Aircrews (Pay and Promotion)
    Mr. Stokesasked the Secretary of State for Air when a full reply to the letter dated 19th December, 1942, from the hon. Member for Ipswich, regarding the pay and promotion of wireless operators and air-gunners may be expected?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I sent a reply on 31st December last to certain points raised in the hon. Member's letter. The remaining points raise the question of altering the relative position and prospects of different categories of aircrews and of altering the relation between the position of aircrews and that of certain other classes of Service personnel. I will send the hon. Member a reply on these outstanding points as soon as a decision has been reached.
    Mr. Stokes: Does not my right hon. Friend recall that this very matter was under consideration by his Department at the time I first wrote to him last December? Three months have now elapsed, and is it not a fact that it is really the Treasury which is standing in the way of proper adjustments being made?
    Sir A. Sinclair: These are very complicated matters. We have to be fair as between the various classes of airmen concerned and between them and men similarly employed in other Services. We are being as quick as we can, and I will let my hon. Friend know.
    Mr. Stokes: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any kind of approximation when a decision will be arrived at? Will it be before Easter or next Christmas?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I would not like to say.

    Air Sea Rescue Service Badge
    Mr. Frankelasked the Secretary of State for Air why the award of a badge to the Air Sea Rescue Service is confined to non-commissioned ranks?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The Air Sea Rescue Service badge is not a meritorious award but a distinguishing mark worn by airmen. It is not the custom in the Royal Air Force for officers to wear such marks, with the exception of those who are qualified as aircrew or whose service is confined to the Medical, Dental, or Educational Branches, or to the Royal Air Force Regiment.
    Mr. Frankel: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the resentment felt among the various sections of the Forces, who regard this decision as being a most undemocratic decision?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Oh, no, Sir; it is really not undemocratic. The position is that these are general duties officers and officers of the Administrative and Special Duties Branch who may be in the Air Rescue Service one month and in Fighter or Bomber Commands the next. The only marks they wear are those which are permanent and which they wear the whole time.

    Commissions
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Secretary of State for Air after what interval airmen, who have been interviewed by a Selection Board with a view to a commission, are informed whether they have been recommended or not?
    Sir A. Sinclair: An airman candidate for a ground commission who is recommended by a Selection Board is not commissioned until he has successfully completed a specialist course, if this is necessary, and in any case a course at the R.A.F. Officers' School. He receives instructions to attend a course of training usually within a period of about three weeks from the date of the Selection Board and this indicates to him that he has been recommended. In the case of an unsuccessful candidate, notification through Service channels is normally despatched within 24 hours.
    Mr. Mathers: Can my right hon. Friend say whether an intimation is given to those who fail to qualify as to why they have failed? If not, why not?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I do not think it is possible to go into details of that kind, which could only lead to lengthy controversies.

    8,000-pound Bombs
    Squadron-Leader Donnerasked the Secretary of State for Air what evidence, photographic or otherwise, is in his possession which justifies the use of 8,000-pound bombs in circumstances where double the number of 4,000-pound bombs can be carried; and whether he is satisfied that the use of the 8,000-pound bomb is so much more destructive in its effect as to more than counterbalance the disadvantage of the smaller number of probable direct hits?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I am satisfied that the use of the 8,000-pound bomb is tactically justified. It would not be in the public interest to say more.
    Squadron-Leader Donner: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that only last autumn Bomber Command regarded the 8,000-pound bomb as an experiment which would be continued only if photographic evidence proved of such a character as to justify its continuation, and will he say whether, in fact, he is now in possession of such photographic evidence?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I can only tell my hon. and gallant Friend that the use of this bomb is considered tactically justifiable.

    Vesuvius (Bombing of Crater)
    Mr. Purbrickasked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in view of the larger bombs we now have available, he will arrange, at the first opportunity, for a heavy bomb to be dropped down the crater of Mount Vesuvius in order to make a practical test as to whether the disturbances created thereby will give rise to severe earthquakes and eruptions?
    Sir A. Sinclair: All possible targets for our bombing attacks are carefully considered. It would not be in the public interest to say more.
    Captain Strickland: Can the Minister give an assurance to the House that Bomber Command will not drop a "Purbrick" on this mountain?
    Mr. Hannah: How can we be sure that the earthquake would be in the right place?

  MERSEYSIDE DOCK ACCESS COMMITTEE
  Sir Robert Rankinasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he is aware that the committee recently appointed to consider the transport facilities, accommodation and layout of the Merseyside port area and to submit proposals relating to post-war development, does not include a Liverpool steamship owner or director of a Liverpool steamship company; and whether, in view of this anomaly his Ministry will cause such representatives of the Liverpool shipping interests to be added to the committee?
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker): The chairman and members of the Merseyside Dock Access Committee were chosen for their expert knowledge of the problems of road and rail access to the docks. In view of the Committee's terms of reference, my Noble Friend did not think it necessary to include a representative of the shipping industry. To include a spokesman of each of the interests concerned with the future welfare of the port would mean a large increase in the size of the committee. My Noble Friend is convinced that the work to be done can be most effectively accomplished by a small expert body of the kind which he has appointed.

  FERRY SERVICE, QUEENSFERRY (RATES)
  Mr. Mathersasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he is aware that the rates for the ferry service between North and South Queensferry have been increased by 10 per cent.; and whether he will arrange for this increase being cancelled because of the burden it represents to those upon whom it falls?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I am making inquiries, and will let my hon. Friend know the result as soon as possible.

  ROAD HAULAGE SCHEME
  Captain Stricklandasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport how many road-haulage firms, invited to become controlled undertakings
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  under the new road haulage scheme, have signed the agreement unconditionally and how many have reserved for future negotiation the matter of a reasonable settlement of the financial conditions?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: So far, 91 firms have signed an agreement with my Ministry and have thus become controlled undertakings. Seventy-eight other firms have made known without reservation their intention to do so. With some of these firms, however, certain details still remain to be settled. Fifty other firms have made known their intentions to sign agreements subject to a satisfactory settlement of the financial arrangements. This condition was made by a number of firms which subsequently became controlled undertakings. In general, it has not proved an obstacle to eventual agreement. Up to the present time no firm has definitely refused an invitation to become a controlled undertaking on the grounds that the financial arrangements were unsatisfactory; a few difficult cases, however, are still under discussion.
  Mr. Watkins: Will my hon. Friend include in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of these firms?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I think it would be more satisfactory to do that when the whole scheme is complete, but I will certainly consider that suggestion.
  Mr. Kirkwood: Has not the time arrived when the Government should take over the whole transport system of the country and not leave it to private enterprise?

  ISLAMIC PILGRIMS (BRITISH SHIPPING)
  Miss Rathboneasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether he has considered a report, which has been sent him, issued by the Arab News Agency in Cairo, last November, to the effect that 14,000 pilgrims were expected to go by sea from Suez to Jedda, this being a higher number than for several previous years; that a record number of pilgrims were going on the same pilgrimage from Palestine, the Lebanon and Syria and some 8,000 from the Sudan, Nigeria, and some parts of West Africa; and to what extent British shipping has been or is being used for these purposes?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I have read the report which my hon. Friend was good enough to send me. The facts are as follow: One British ship made two return voyages from Suez to Jedda. On the first outward voyage, and on both return voyages, this ship carried pilgrims. On the second outward voyage it carried essential cargo. No other assistance was given by the British authorities.
  Miss Rathbone: Does my hon. Friend realise that in the note I sent to him I especially stated that the British authorities had risen to the occasion and had provided shipping, and that while we appreciated the value of the pilgrimages, would he see that the rescuing of victims from the Nazi massacres—victims who never seem to be able to get any shipping—gets preference over pilgrims?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I have the greatest sympathy with my hon. Friend's purpose, and I would like to pay a tribute to the gallantry with which she defends her cause, but the small amount of shipping involved in this operation would not have been of great assistance to the Jewish victims of Nazi ferocity. There were strong reasons for giving this small amount of help to the Islamic pilgrims, and the Government were very glad to be able to do it.
  Mr. Astor: Is it not a fact that there is nothing incompatible between helping refugees from Nazi persecution and assisting pilgrimages and that British help for these pilgrimages is the most effective form of propaganda it is possible to undertake?

  MINISTRY OF INFORMATION

    Speech, Colville's Clyde Iron Works
    Mr. Gallacherasked the Minister of Information whether he has considered the letter from the Clyde Iron No. 2 Branch of the British Iron, Steel and Kindred Trades Association, sent to him by the hon. Member for West Fife, protesting against the anti-Soviet character of the speech made by a Dr. McLeod, at Colville's Clyde Iron Works, on 15th February; and what statement he has to make?
    The Minister of Information (Mr. Brendan Bracken): As I have already told the hon. Member in my reply to his letter, the Ministry of Information did not send
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    this speaker to the iron works and cannot take any responsibility for his utterances.
    Mr. Gallacher: As this meeting was held under the auspices, or direction, of the Ministry of Information, can nothing be done in view of the fact that this Minister was invited back for a further meeting?
    Mr. Bracken: I have enough trouble looking after some of the speakers sponsored by the Ministry of Information without adding to that responsibility by looking after orators unconnected with my Ministry.

    Armed Forces, Northern Ireland (Gifts)
    Sir Herbert Williamsasked the Minister of Information whether he is aware that when it is desired to send to a unit of His Majesty's Forces in Northern Ireland gifts of a recreational nature the Postal and Telegraphic Censorship Department of his Ministry require, in duplicate, an undertaking of a character which has not been required in connection with similar gifts to serving members of His Majesty's Forces in any other part of the world; and the reason for this discrimination against His Majesty's Forces in Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Bracken: No censorship permit is required for sending gifts to a member of His Majesty's Forces serving outside Great Britain provided that they are addressed to his unit. If a private address in Northern Ireland is used, the regulations applying to packets for civilians must be observed.
    Sir H. Williams: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the case of a registered war charity, properly addressed, it was required to fill in a most elaborate document?
    Mr. Bracken: No, Sir; I am not aware of these new facts.
    Sir H. Williams: If I bring them to my right hon. Friend's attention, will he look into the matter further?
    Mr. Bracken: Certainly.

    Allied Publications (House of Commons)
    Mr. Bartle Bullasked the Minister of Information whether, in order to save wastage and postage, he can arrange with the various despatching organisations that copies of the "Soviet War News" and

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    similar daily or regular publications shall be left in the newspaper room or some other convenient place where they can be collected by Members who wish to read them?
    Mr. Bracken: I agree that this is a useful suggestion. I understand that the authorities of the House are prepared to arrange for copies of these publications of our Allies to be placed in the newspaper room for the use of Members who wish to cancel their individual copies.

    Jews (Broadcast Propaganda)
    Commander Locker-Lampsonasked the Minister of Information whether he will arrange for the case for the Jews to be stated every week over the wireless in view of the fact that the Jews are the only minority selected for exclusive attack by the Nazi Government in their propaganda?
    Mr. Bracken: It would be an insult to our Jewish fellow-citizens if the B.B.C. were to attempt to broadcast replies to stale German lies. I cannot accept my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion that there is any need to state a case for the Jews. Our Jewish fellow-citizens have no need to be on the defensive. They play their fair part in bearing the burdens and sharing the dangers which His Majesty's subjects of all creeds have willingly accepted in their resistance to German aggression.

  POST OFFICE

    Sub-Postmistress, Belfast (Displacement)
    Mr. John Beattieasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the indignation aroused in Belfast by his decision to take away the means of livelihood of Mrs. Alice Mary Graham, the postmistress of Fortwilliam sub-post office, 573, Antrim Road, Belfast; whether he can state the nature of the inquiries he made before coming to this decision; whether he is aware that the source of his information is unreliable; and if he will set up an inquiry into this case?
    The Postmaster-General (Captain Crookshank): One of the sons of Mrs. Graham, John S. S. Graham, was recently convicted of treason felony, while another son, James Ford Graham, was recently interned under the Civil Authorities (Special Powers) (Northern Ireland) Acts; and the security authorities in
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    Northern Ireland subsequently represented to the Post Office that Mrs. Graham was not only aware of the disloyal activities of her sons but also approved and assisted them in those activities. The Post Office did not feel justified in retaining a person whose loyalty was in doubt in a position where she might have access to information of vital interest to ill-disposed persons; and I agree with this view.
    Mr. Beattie: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the source of his information is not reliable, and further is he aware that the statements contained in the document which I have personally seen are nonsense and untrue? Will he have a consultation with me with a view to placing the other side of the case before him on a sworn affidavit?
    Captain Crookshank: I cannot take the matter further than I have done in my reply.
    Mr. Rhys Davies: Are we to take it that it is the policy of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's Department that a person is to be punished, although he himself may be loyal, simply because a relation is not loyal?
    Captain Crookshank: That is not the case.
    Mr. Shinwell: Are we to understand that when a request is made to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman by an hon. Member to consult with him he declines?
    Captain Crookshank: The hon. Gentleman must understand nothing of the kind, but in a question of this sort, which also touches upon the public constitutional position of the Northern Ireland authorities, some of the points which the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Belfast (Mr. Beattie) had in mind would be more properly raised there than with me.
    Mr. Shinwell: Will not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman reconsider his decision? If my hon. Friend wishes to meet him, will he not agree?
    Captain Crookshank: Of course, provided it concerns something for which I have responsibility. What the hon. Member referred to was no such thing.
    Mr. Beattie: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that only one side of the case has been presented to him, and will he accept an invitation from

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    me, without prejudice, that I am prepared to submit to him the sworn evidence of Mrs. Graham? Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman going to hold the mother responsible for any action of her older son, who left home many years ago?
    Mr. Gallacher: May I ask——
    Mr. Speaker: We must get on with the Questions.
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Mr. Gallacher: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman has laid down a guiding principle in connection with this matter. I want to know whether it will apply to the Secretary of State for India, who is conscious of where his son is and what he is doing.
    Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of Order.
    Mr. Silverman: In view of the fact that my hon. Friend was allowed to ask the Question, would it not be proper for you, Mr. Speaker, to give the Minister an opportunity of replying?
    Mr. Speaker: That Question has already been answered by the Minister.
    Mr. Beattie: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    Air Mails
    Mr. Dribergasked the Postmaster-General whether he will cease describing as air mail and charging for at the high air-mail rate, the mail such as that to and from India, which is sea-borne for the greater part of its journey?
    Captain Crookshank: Conveyance partly by surface means and partly by air is, and always has been, a feature of many air-mail services, and the term "air mail" is applied by international agreement to correspondence sent by such services, which should bear a special label and requires the same special treatment as correspondence conveyed by air over the whole journey. This form of service is of course normally resorted to only where air transport is not available over some part of the route but where the use of an air service for the remainder of the
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    route offers as in this case a substantial acceleration over an all-surface route. The Post Office has been at pains to give the fullest possible publicity to the fact that the ordinary air mails for India and the Middle East are not sent all the way by air, but are conveyed by ship between this country and an African port. The shortage of aircraft capacity precludes conveyance by air throughout. Reduction of the air postage rate would increase the load to be carried and is impracticable so long as the present position as regards aircraft capacity persists; and I regret therefore that I cannot adopt the hon. Member's suggestion.
    Mr. Driberg: Is it not a fact that there is not a substantial acceleration at present of this so-called air mail? Is it not rather absurd that it often takes longer than the sea mail sent at ordinary rates?
    Captain Crookshank: No, Sir. On the average the gain by this route as compared with the all-surface route is between two weeks and five weeks.
    Sir Stanley Reed: Is it not recognised that the airgraph service provides a cheaper and satisfactory alternative to the air mail?
    Captain Crookshank: It is for that reason that our publicity is directed to getting the public to use that service.
    Mr. Driberg: Then why not abolish the air mail?

    Cheap Night Trunk and Toll Calls
    Mr. Viantasked the Postmaster-General whether he has considered the advisability of abolishing cheap night trunk calls?
    Captain Crookshank: Yes, Sir. This matter has been under constant review since 1940, when the cheap night trunk service was restored, after having been withdrawn on the outbreak of war. This service is largely used by the troops and others living away from home, and I am satisfied that it is in the national interest to maintain the facility. It results, however, in serious staffing and transport difficulties during the later evening hours, and some modification of the existing arrangements is necessary. I am accordingly arranging for cheap night trunk and toll calls to be restricted to the period 6.30 p.m. to 9.30 p.m. for subscribers and 5.30 p.m. to 9.30 p.m. for call office users.

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    The change will come into effect on Thursday, 1st April. I am sure that both the House and the public will recognise that some restriction is necessary under present conditions, and I hope that the public will assist the Post Office by reducing, as much as possible, both the number and the duration of such calls.
    Mr. Mathers: What is involved in the 9.30 p.m. stoppage of these trunk calls? Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman mean that calls put in before that time will in due course be fulfilled, even though there is perhaps a two hours' delay?
    Captain Crookshank: No, Sir. It is just the same arrangement as exists now, the only alteration being in the time.
    Mr. McGovern: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that this will cause great congestion during those hours and that any attempt to prevent boys and girls away from home and evacuated people from communicating with their parents will be resented all over the country?
    Captain Crookshank: The trouble is that we are also up against man-power difficulties. By cutting down the service to this extent it is anticipated that there will be a saving of from 300 to 350 operators.
    Mr. Mathers: In view of the uncertainty created by the answer to my previous Supplementary Question, will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman take an opportunity of further informing the House of the actual position?
    Captain Crookshank: Yes, Sir. If the hon. Member will put down a Question oh any point of detail, I shall be happy to answer it.

  POST-WAR BUILDING PROGRAMME
  Mr. David Grenfellasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works whether he can give any further information on the long-term programme of construction referred to in the recent White Paper on training in the building industry; and what plans are now being drawn up?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Hicks): My Noble Friend has for some time had in hand the collection and co-ordination of all the available requirements and proposals for building, repairs to buildings, construction,
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  and reconstruction after the war. For this purpose he has established a special section in the Ministry of Works which, in conjunction with all Government Departments concerned, including the various controls of materials, will prepare a comprehensive national programme in terms of labour, materials, cost, time and geographical location. On the basis of this survey it will be possible to take the necessary decisions as to works of first importance and the allocation of materials and labour and to set up any machinery necessary to secure that the post-war building programme is developed, and carried out, as smoothly and expeditiously as possible.
  Mr. Grenfell: While I thank my hon. Friend for his full reply, will he inform the House when he expects to be able to give an outline of this plan to the House?
  Mr. Hicks: I can give an assurance, if my hon. Friend requires it, that the matter is being really actively pursued. There will be no delay, but to the question about the exact time when we shall be able to make a report to the House, I cannot give a reply.
  Mr. Cluse: Does this include control of prices?
  Mr. Hicks: No, Sir.
  Mr. Thorne: What is being done now to make arrangements to provide bricks, so that there will be plenty of bricks ready when the time comes to build houses, which cannot be built without bricks?
  Mr. Hicks: The answer to that question, which relates to one commodity as far as building is concerned, is that my Noble Friend has taken steps to see that every brick-works which is temporarily closed down because of the concentration of the industry is adequately provided with every facility possible to maintain all machinery, boilers and so on ready for action, so that at any time when they are asked to go into full production, they can start off straight away.

  ROYAL NAVY

    Casualty Figures (Publication)
    Captain Gammansasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is prepared to reconsider his decision regarding

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    the publication of casualty figures in view of the fact that losses of ships of the Royal Navy have already been revealed and that the United States Navy have published their casualty figures?
    The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Captain Pilkington): No, Sir.
    Captain Gammans: Why should the publication of our casualty figures help the enemy, whereas the publication of the American casualty figures does not?
    Captain Pilkington: The publication of these figures would enable the enemy to draw a more accurate picture of our manpower position, and it is not strictly accurate to say that the Americans have given the figures referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend.

    Undelivered Letters and Telegrams
    Sir R. Rankinasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that every month more than 50,000 letters and telegrams for men in the Navy are undelivered on account of their being incorrectly addressed, he will consider arranging that the special sheet prepared by the Admiralty entitled "How to communicate with, and inquire about, men in the Royal Navy," which will be inserted in naval allotment and allowance order books, shall also be displayed in the principal post offices throughout the country?
    Captain Pilkington: Yes, Sir, I am considering my hon. Friend's suggestion in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General.

  SIERRA LEONE (WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION, GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES)
  Mr. David Adamsasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that a workman employed by the Admiralty at the Boom Defence Depot, Sierra Leone, after many months' delay, for the loss of an eye, was awarded under the Workmen's Compensation Ordinance, 1939, £10, with one-third of his normal wages for the period of his illness, and was thereafter discharged as unfit for his employment; and whether he will recommend adequate compensation and the required amendment to the Ordinance in this respect?
  Captain Pilkington: The question appears to refer to an African labourer, Jacob Abbor. The delay in settling this case, which I nevertheless regret, was chiefly due to obscurities and contradictions in the evidence submitted by and on behalf of the claimant. It was not established that the loss of the eye was due to any injury while at work, but in all the circumstances a compassionate award of £10 was made to Abbor. In addition, Hurt Pay at the rate of half—not a third—of normal wages was authorised under Admiralty regulations, in respect of the time which he spent in hospital. Abbor was not discharged as "unfit," but on account of misconduct. The Sierra Leone Workmen's Compensation Ordinance, 1939, is not applicable to employees of the United Kingdom Government.
  Mr. Adams: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the Sierra Leone Press gave evidence taken on the spot refuting his statement and is he satisfied that the trifling allowance of £10 for the loss of an eye was fair and reasonable in the circumstances?
  Captain Pilkington: The facts as I have given them are accurate, but the whole question of these awards is being examined.
  Mr. Silverman: Can this assessment of £10 for an eye be the subject of any judicial investigation, and will any review of awards cover this particular case?
  Captain Pilkington: Yes, the review would cover this particular case. In reply to the first part of the question, it was not established that the loss of this eye was in fact due to the work he was engaged on.
  Mr. Sorensen: Are we to assume that the £10 granted to this African is an indication of the value of an African as distinct from a British eye?
  Captain Pilkington: The hon. Member puts a quite false interpretation on the fact.
  Mr. David Adamsasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Workmen's Compensation Ordinance, 1939, of Sierra Leone, contains no provision for compensation to injured workers in Government service unless sanction has first been obtained from

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  the Overseas Department, whereby months elapse, the injured man and his dependants being left without subsistence meantime; and whether he will amend this Ordinance so that satisfactory evidence and proof of the injury may be submitted 1o the local branch of the Overseas Department for settlement as in the case of injured workers not employed in His Majesty's services in this Colony?
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Colonel Oliver Stanley): The welfare of civilians employed in the Colonies by the Admiralty, the War Office or the Air Ministry is the concern of the Service Department by whom they are employed; and in the case of permanent, or partial, incapacity or death they or their dependants are entitled to receive compensation under the Injury Warrants and other regulations. They are therefore excluded from the scope of the Workmen's Compensation Ordinances enacted by the various Colonial Governments.
  Mr. Adams: Why is it necessary to send ever to this country to have a case examined rather than have it examined and settled on the spot?
  Colonel Stanley: I have explained that the case to which I think the hon. Member refers had nothing to do with the Workmen's Compensation Ordinance. It was settled by the Admiralty.
  Mr. Silverman: Whether it had anything to do with the Workmen's Compensation Ordinance or not, why did it have to be investigated so far away; why did it have to take so long and why is it alleged after that lapse of time that the man is unable to prove something pertinent to his case?
  Colonel Stanley: The hon. Member should put that Question to the Admiralty.

  KENYA

    Juvenile Employment
    Mr. Edmund Harveyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Ordinance amending the Kenya Masters and Servants Ordinance (No. 16) of 1939 is yet in operation; and what are the reasons for the delay in bringing it into force, in view of its importance as affecting conditions of juvenile employment?
    Colonel Stanley: The Employment of Servants (Amendment) Ordinance of 1939 has not hitherto been brought into operation owing principally to the depletion of staff for military and other war reasons, which made it impossible to introduce the system of registration of juveniles without which it could not have been enforced. I have recently been informed that a short Bill has been published for introduction in the current session of the Legislative Council to provide that no juveniles shall be subject to any of the penal provisions of the Employment of Servants Ordinance, 1937.

    Labour Situation
    Mr. Harveyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can make a statement on the present labour situation in Kenya, giving information as to the number of strikes which have occurred during the last six months; and whether he is satisfied with the state of labour legislation in Kenya?
    Colonel Stanley: During the last six months, apart from the stoppages of work mentioned in the reply which I gave my hon. Friend on 3rd February, the only incidents which have been reported were certain repercussions of those stoppages in the form of small strikes in other towns. The strikers quickly resumed work on being informed that their complaints would be examined and dealt with. My present information is that the labour position is generally satisfactory, except that the difficulties in maintaining the food supply within the next few months must naturally cause the Government some anxiety. As regards the last part of the Question, a Bill has been published for introduction in the current session of the Legislative Council to amend the Trade Union Legislation in certain respects.
    Mr. Harvey: When is that Bill likely to be proceeded with?
    Colonel Stanley: I understand that the new Session starts almost immediately.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman look into the whole problem of labour legislation in Kenya?
    Colonel Stanley: From what I have seen of this Bill which it is proposed to introduce, it proceeds on very satisfactory lines.

  JAMAICA (SUGAR INDUSTRY, WAGES)
  Mr. David Adamsasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the actual wage-rates paid to task workers in the Jamaica sugar industry, as was determined by the agreement of March, 1941, have been in any way affected by the fixing of a lower minimum wage for workers on time rates; and whether he will consider increasing the time rates minimum wage to the higher level agreed upon by the Jamaica sugar industry and the workers in March, 1941?
  Colonel Stanley: Task workers who were included in the Agreement of March, 1941, and whose pay is in excess of the minimum rates recently fixed by proclamation, are not affected by that proclamation. As regards the last part of the Question, I must await the result of the inquiry which, as I informed the hon. Member on 17th February, was being addressed to the Governor.

  NYASALAND (LAND POLICY)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the reference in a recent speech of the Governor of Nyasaland to the rise in land values and the considerable interest shown by purchasers in freehold estates suitable for tobacco growing in the Shire Highlands; whether any number of Europeans can purchase land in Nyasaland; what proportion of the land is freehold; and what is the Government's policy in the matter?
  Colonel Stanley: The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. The total area of freehold and leasehold estates, which are mostly held by Europeans and are included in the reserved lands, is approximately 1,300,000 acres, representing 5 per cent. of the total area of the Protectorate. This area cannot be extended. With this exception, the land of the Protectorate is either Crown Land or Native Trust Land which is vested in the Secretary of State and administered and controlled for the use and the benefit of the natives of Nyasaland.
  Mr. Sorensen: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman quite satisfied that the
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  interests of the natives regarding agricultural production are being fully safeguarded, and is he paying any attention to the increase in the price of land in that area?
  Colonel Stanley: I think the interests of the natives are being fully safeguarded. I will look into the other point.

  NIGERIA

    Teaching Profession
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the present condition of the teaching profession in Nigeria and the exodus of teachers; what are the present wages paid, hours worked and holidays; and whether he is considering plans to make the profession more satisfactory and attractive?
    Colonel Stanley: As regards the first and third parts of the Question, the circumstances of the teaching profession in Nigeria have for some time been engaging my serious attention in consultation with the Governor, who has submitted comprehensive proposals for improving present conditions. These proposals are receiving active consideration in the Colonial Office. I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement giving in full the details asked for in the second part.
    Mr. Sorensen: Do I understand that that statement includes proposals regarding the improvement of this profession?
    Colonel Stanley: Yes, they are comprehensive educational proposals which we are now considering.
    Following are the details:
    As regards the second part of the Question, wages vary according to the grades of the teachers and their certificates. In Mission Schools the pay of certificated elementary teachers is £30 to £60 per annum. In Government Schools £36 to £72 per annum. Mission teachers holding the Yaba Diploma receive £75 to £150 per annum. Mission School "graduates" receive £160 to £200 per annum. In Government Schools teachers with the Yaba Diploma are divided into three grades, the lowest receiving £88 to £128 per annum and the highest £240 to £375 per annum. Uncertificated teachers are

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    on lower scales. The usual school hours are 9 a.m. to 12 noon and 1 p.m. to 3 p.m. The holidays vary according to locality but are roughly two months in the year for both Government and Mission Schools.

    Native Administration Services
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when the recommendations in the Dodds Report on conditions of service in the Nigerian native administrations are to be implemented; what is the nature of the control of service in these administrations; and how do they compare with Government service?
    Colonel Stanley: I am not aware of the recommendations in the Report referred to by the hon. Member, and I am asking the Governor for information about it. The Native Administration Services are under the control of the various native authorities which, in their turn, are subject to the supervision of administrative officers of the Nigerian Government. I have no detailed information as regards the last part of the Question, but generally speaking officials of the native administrations are paid at lower rates than corresponding officials of the Central Government of Nigeria.
    Mr. Sorensen: When is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman likely to receive a copy of the Dodds Report, and therefore to be able to give his decision on the matter?
    Colonel Stanley: I cannot give an estimate. I shall ask for it as a matter of urgency, but the hon. Member will realise that communications are sometimes difficult.

  LAND REGISTRATION (SCOTT COMMITTEE'S RECOMMENDATIONS)
  Mr. William Brownasked the Attorney-General what steps he is taking to implement the recommendations of the Scott Committee regarding the extension of the system of land registration throughout the country as a pre-requisite for post-war reconstruction proposals; and what progress has been made in overcoming staffing and mapping difficulties?
  The Attorney-General (Sir Donald Somervell): My Noble Friend the Lord Chancellor has appointed a Committee
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  under the chairmanship of Lord Rushcliffe to consider the recommendation referred to in the Question. Until the Report of the Committee has been received, it would be premature to make any further statement on the subject.
  Mr. Brown: In view of the perfectly appalling Report produced by Lord Rushcliffe on the nursing profession, does the right hon. and learned Gentleman regard this as a good choice?
  The Attorney-General: I will merely dissociate myself from the implications of that Supplementary Question.
  Mr. Stephen: Can we have an assurance that there will not be another committee to report on the Rushcliffe Committee?
  The Attorney-General: I think, if the hon. Member has followed this matter, the recommendation of the Scott Report on this question was one which clearly required further investigation.

  POST-WAR HOUSING
  Mr. Bossomasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning when he is going to announce the overriding regulations enabling local authorities to decide on the area of land required to satisfy their post-war housing needs, particularly in relation to treatment of large slum areas and bombed sites?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Town and Country Planning (Mr. Henry Strauss): The Government have already announced their acceptance of the recommendation of the Uthwatt Committee that planning authorities should be given power to acquire war damaged and other reconstruction areas as a whole. I am not clear what overriding regulations the hon. Member has in mind, but my right hon. Friend will give guidance and advice to planning authorities through his planning officers and otherwise.
  Mr. Bossom: Will my hon. Friend explain how many houses to the acre are going to be allowed in future, so that the local authorities can decide how many sites they have to get to carry out the Minister's recommendations?
  Mr. Strauss: I would rather not answer that question without notice.
  Mr. Denman: When will legislation be offered to us?
  Mr. Strauss: The hon. Member received an answer from the Leader of the House last week.
  Mr. Denman: It gave no information.
  Mr. Bossomasked the Minister of Town and Country Planning when he will be in a position to announce the Government's provisional proposals with regard to the stabilisation or otherwise of land values so that local authorities can intelligently carry out the Minister of Health's request to begin acquiring land as sites for post-war housing?
  Mr. Strauss: The Government are considering, together with other recommendations of the Uthwatt Committee, the detailed application of the principle that compensation payable in respect of the public acquisition or control of land should not exceed sums based on the standard of values at 31st March, 1939, but I am unable to say when legislation will be introduced. There is in the opinion of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health nothing to prevent local authorities intelligently carrying out his request.
  Mr. Bossom: Is my hon. Friend satisfied that local authorities can purchase the land they need at any price by mutual agreement?
  Mr. Strauss: If my hon. Friend wishes to raise any question on the statement of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health he will no doubt direct his question to that Department. I was only concerned with denying the implication in my hon. Friend's Question.
  Mr. Stokes: Arising out of the terms of the Question, does the Minister agree that the value of land is the one thing you cannot possibly stabilise?

  POST-WAR INTERNATIONAL SETTLEMENT
  Mr. Cocksasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider moving for the appointment of a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament, of which the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs should be a member, to inquire into the political and economic principles and problems of the international settlement
  1180
  at the end of the war and the organisation of world security, to hear the views of representatives of allied and neutral Powers and of the Dominions, to take evidence from Government departments and other authorities and organisations, and to prepare a Report for the information and guidance of the Government, Parliament and the people?
  The Prime Minister: It is not proposed to adopt this expedient at the present time.
  Mr. Cocks: In view of the fact that the minds of Ministers are fully occupied in the war, would not such a Committee of both Houses, consisting of men eminent for their past services and of future promise, perform a useful service by making a preliminary survey of these difficult problems?
  The Prime Minister: I think there would be two sides to the medal.

  ANTI-U-BOAT WARFARE COMMITTEE
  Sir Ralph Glynasked the Prime Minister to which Department questions should be addressed concerning the work of the Anti-U-Boat Committee, of which he is Chairman, and the Minister of Aircraft Production, Vice-Chairman?
  The Prime Minister: As I explained in the statement which I made on 15th December, the Anti-U-Boat Warfare Committee in no way supersedes or replaces the regular and systematic control of anti-U-boat warfare by the Admiralty. Questions on this subject should therefore be addressed to the First Lord of the Admiralty, unless they raise wide strategic issues which would more appropriately be addressed to me as Minister of Defence.
  Sir R. Glyn: Could the right hon. Gentleman consider affording the House an opportunity to discuss this whole question owing to the fact that when the Navy Estimates were introduced special reference was made to the impossibility of one Department dealing with a matter that concerns two Departments?
  The Prime Minister: The relations of the House are with Ministers of the Crown and not with the chairmen or heads of committees, Cabinet or otherwise, in their capacity as chairmen or

  1181
  heads of committees. The question of a Debate must be settled through the usual channels.

  COLONIAL EMPIRE (MINISTER'S SPEECH)
  Mr. John Dugdaleasked the Prime Minister whether the views upon the future development of the British Colonial Empire expressed at Oxford, on 5th March, by the Secretary of State for the Colonies, represent the policy of His Majesty's Government?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. His Majesty's Government are convinced that the administration of the British Colonies must continue to be the sole responsibility of Great Britain. The policy of His Majesty's Government is to plan for the fullest possible political, economic and social development of the Colonies within the British Empire, and in close co-operation with neighbouring and friendly nations.
  Mr. Dugdale: Has not the somewhat truculent nature of the speech made at Oxford caused misgivings both in the United States and the Dominions, who had hoped to see the Atlantic Charter implemented in our Colonial Empire?
  The Prime Minister: We must equally beware of truculence and of grovelling.
  Sir Percy Harris: Does the Prime Minister still adhere to the principles of the Atlantic Charter?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, of course.
  Mr. Shinwell: Does my right hon. Friend's answer preclude the Government's consideration in future of the proposal relating to international mandates?
  The Prime Minister: We should be opposed to the idea of condominions, which have always been found to bring about very bad results to the regions affected, but we naturally shall be in the closest touch and intercourse with our great Allies whose interests are closely connected with ourselves in some parts of the world.
  Mr. Granville: Does the reply mean that the Dominions or member States of the British Commonwealth will also have a voice in the future of the British Colonies?
  The Prime Minister: They already have a considerable voice in the future of certain Colonies which come in their regions.
  Mr. McGovern: Does the declaration mean that this country does not intend to give up its occupied territories at the end of this war as Germany will have to do?
  The Prime Minister: I think that it would be a very insulting parallel to draw.

  AIR-RAID WARDENS (AWARDS)
  Sir Smedley Crookeasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of issuing a decoration or a medal, to be known as the Civil Defence Medal or some other similar designation, for presentation with New Year or Birthday honours to selected wardens who have consistently carried out their duties during the war years in all weathers, night and day, but who have not had the chance of meriting the George Cross or George Medal?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think there is any need for the institution of a new good service decoration or medal for Civil Defence in addition to the distinctions already available, which include appointments to the Order of the British Empire and awards of the Medal of the Order.

  HOUSEWIVES (BADGE)
  Commander Sir Archibald Southbyasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the institution of a housewife's badge to mark the Government's appreciation of the magnificent contribution made by the housewives of Great Britain to every phase of the national war effort on the home front?
  The Prime Minister: I do not consider that selection for the award of a badge of this nature would be practicable.
  Captain Cunningham-Reid: Would the Prime Minister consider a badge for agricultural workers who have no uniform and nothing to show for the fact that they are doing vital war work?

  LIABILITIES (WAR-TIME ADJUSTMENT) ACT
  Sir Leonard Lyleasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the appointment of a special committee, on

  1183
  which both the Treasury and the interests concerned will be represented, to investigate the problems raised by war measures in certain areas, of which he has been informed?
  The Prime Minister: The Liabilities (War-time Adjustment) Act, 1941, was passed to provide a measure of relief to persons including those in the areas in question who are financially affected by war circumstances. I do not think that any special committee is required.

  WAR PRODUCTION (BOOKLETS)
  Sir Robert Rankinasked the Minister of Production whether he will call the attention of managers of factories engaged in war production to the booklets on the most efficient methods of dealing with the clerical side of works production and organisation now in preparation by the British Standards Institution?
  The Minister of Production (Mr. Lyttelton): A note on the first of these booklets to be published by the British Standards Institution is included in the current issue of the Production and Engineering Bulletin published jointly by my Department and the Ministry of Labour and National Service, of which I am sending my hon. Friend a copy. Previous issues of the Bulletin, which has a wide circulation among managements, have contained articles on the work of the British Standards Institution in this field, and I am informed that the institution have themselves sent a prospectus describing it to many representative organisations. The publications in question have my warm support and will, I hope, be closely studied by managers of factories engaged in war production. I am examining carefully what further steps can be taken to ensure a full distribution to them.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Prosecutions
    Mr. Rhys Daviesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food the total number of persons prosecuted by his Department; and how many were employers and servants, respectively?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Mr. Mabane): My Department has taken proceedings on 76,730 summonses since the outbreak of war. The figures of numbers of persons prosecuted are not available except from the beginning of the year 1942. In that year 15,188 persons were prosecuted, the total number of successful prosecutions being 31,397. It would not be possible to make any significent analysis of the figures in the manner suggested by my hon. Friend. In this connection, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to a like Question on 12th May, 1942.
    Mr. Davies: Is care taken to see that no assistant is prosecuted where the benefit of the offence accrues to the employer?
    Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Cannot my hon. Friend be more emphatic and say with pride that his Department prosecutes more employers than any other Department and is not dealing with prosecutions of employees?
    Mr. Mabane: My hon. Friend will realise the difficulty of distinguishing between those who are employers and those who are employees, such as directors of companies.

    Fish Distribution, Southampton
    Dr. Russell Thomasasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has any statement to make in regard to the fish supplies to Southampton?
    Mr. Mabane: From the returns furnished to my Department by the traders in Southampton, it has been computed that the quantity of fish supplied to that town in terms of whole fish was 16,000 stones in January and 11,860 stones in February.
    Dr. Thomas: Could my hon. Friend do something still further, because there is great perturbation in towns about fish supplies?
    Mr. Mabane: I can only say that in February Southampton received 145 per cent. of its entitlement of the total landings on a per capita basis.

    Rationing (Change of Retailers)
    Mr. Ralph Ethertonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of

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    Food whether, when the new food ration book period starts in July, the annual option much valued by consumers of changing their retailers will be preserved so that some stimulus to good service will remain?
    Mr. Mabane: Yes, Sir, except in the case of milk.

    Eggs (Complaint of Wastage)
    Mr. Wakefieldasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been drawn to a letter published on 18th February in the "Manchester Guardian," from a Mr. Whitson, of Keswick, of which a copy has been sent to him, in which grave allegations are made concerning egg wastage and, in particular, the inability of his Department to find a market for egg producers; and what action he is proposing to take in view of the urgent need for eggs in all parts of the country?
    Mr. Mabane: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply on this subject which I gave on 11th February to the hon. Member for Everton (Mr. Kirby). The eggs to which reference is made had been incubated by the producer at a temperature of 100° for 18 days, and their only possible use was for breaking out for manufacturing purposes. No question arises of finding a market for egg producers, or of the wastage of eggs suitable for consumption by the general public.

    Condemned Imported Commodities
    Sir Robert Youngasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been called to the condemnation of supplies of oranges and corned beef, etc., by the sanitary inspector of Golborne, Lancashire; and whether he can give any explanation why these commodities became unfit for human consumption and say on whom the ultimate cost of the loss falls?
    Mr. Mabane: I am aware of the condemnations referred to by my hon. Friend. The oranges were Spanish sour oranges and formed part of an allocation to a manufacturer. It is impossible to prevent a proportion of imported fruit from deteriorating while in transit. The corned beef condemned formed part of a consignment of goods which had been rejected by the Ministry's reconditioning agents as unfit for further storage. In both instances the loss falls on the Ministry of Food.
    Sir R. Young: Can the Minister say whether it is possible to arrest the conveyance of such commodities before they reach the traders here?
    Mr. Mabane: It is rather a question of arresting them before they reach this country.

    Control Committees (Appeals against Decisions)
    Captain C. S. Taylorasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether members of the public have a right of appeal to the Minister of Food against decisions of local or regional food control committees, especially where permission has not been granted by these committees for an individual to change his retailer?
    Mr. Mabane: Members of the public have no "statutory" right of appeal to the Minister of Food against decisions of local food control committees or divisional food officers. In practice, however, all appeals against decisions are carefully considered.
    Captain Taylor: In view of the fact that certain local food committees like to give the impression that they have complete dictatorial powers in this matter, will my hon. Friend see that his answer is circulated, so that the general public know that they have an opportunity of appealing to the Minister?
    Mr. Mabane: I cannot accept the implication in the Supplementary Question, but I think that my original answer will satisfy the hon. and gallant Member's desire.
    Sir Irving Albery: Is it not well known that any person can appeal to a Minister?

    Recommended Employee, Pontardawe
    Sir Stanley Reedasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what action it is proposed to take in the case of the clerk of the Pontardawe Rural District Council who recommended to him an employee of the council, dismissed and later prosecuted for defalcations, as one having excellent credentials, the said employee afterwards being sentenced to six years' penal servitude for forgery and embezzlement?
    Mr. Mabane: The recommendation was given by the official in question whilst serving as food executive officer of the

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    Pontardawe Rural District. He is being suspended from duty pending his reply to the suggestion that he knowingly recommended an unsatisfactory person for employment. My Noble Friend is considering what further steps can appropriately be taken.

    Gift Parcels from America
    Miss Rathboneasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that a good many well-to-do individuals are receiving regular or occasional parcels of food and small luxuries from the United States of America or Canada; and, seeing that these people are already amply fed, will he stop this unnecessary burden on shipping space?
    Mr. Mabane: The receipt by individuals in this country of parcels of food sent by relatives and friends in the U.S.A., the Dominions and other parts of the Empire is not confined to any particular section of the population. This matter is governed by regulations to secure that such gifts are unsolicited, infrequent and small. They may only be sent by mail and cannot to any significant extent occupy space which could be used for other cargo. Liberty to send occasional gifts to friends and relatives in this country is much valued, especially in the Dominions, and complete prohibition would not seem desirable.
    Miss Rathbone: Why should we burden shipping even to this small extent with unnecessary luxuries? Is it not the case that some people do receive parcels of cheese and luxuries quite regularly, and that the difficulty of providing shipping is continually put forward as a reason why refugees cannot be rescued and why food cannot be sent abroad to starving children?

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY

    Tyres
    Mr. Stokesasked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware that in the United States of America only 20 per cent. of the giant tyres surrendered for repair prove to be scrap against 72 per cent. in this country during the period 1st November, 1942, to 31st January, 1943; and whether he will adopt the American system of handing back to owners their own tyres after retreading?
    The Minister of Supply (Sir Andrew Duncan): No, Sir; I am unable to identify the figure of 20 per cent. I am informed that American figures showing the proportion of giant tyres, removed from vehicles for replacement, which prove to be retreadable are not yet available. As regards the second part of the Question, I am satisfied that on balance the system suggested would be wasteful of rubber.
    Mr. Stokes: If I send the Minister the source of my information, will he have the circumstances re-examined, and does he not really think that the best way to encourage people to take their tyres off before they are worn out is to assure them that they shall have them back when they are re-treaded?
    Sir A. Duncan: We are most anxious that tyres should be taken off in time to be re-treaded, and I agree with the hon. Member that the subject is one that needs careful and firm handling.

    Discharged Employees, Royal Ordnance Factories
    Mr. Fosterasked the Minister of Supply what machinery exists at Royal Ordnance factories to deal with the discharging of workpeople, or what methods are adopted to prevent favouritism being shown to certain employees, thus causing irritation at the factory and affecting production?
    Sir A. Duncan: The selection of workers is made jointly by the factory management and the local officials of the Ministry of Labour and National Service according to the circumstances of the workers concerned and the requirements of the work on which it is desired to place them. The district officials of the appropriate trade unions are kept informed and their representations considered. The worker has the right of appeal to the local appeal board.

    Railings Removal
    Major-General Sir Alfred Knoxasked the Minister of Supply how many tons of iron have been collected from the removal of gates and railings in the country; and what percentage of this amount has been brought into actual use for munition manufacture?
    Sir A. Duncan: Approximately 450,000 tons of railings have been collected up to date. Of this, 85,000 tons are in reserve dumps, and the remainder has

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    either already been sent to iron and steel works or is being sorted and cut up preparatory to going there. The entire output of iron and steel is used to meet essential war-time requirements.
    Sir A. Knox: Does the Minister consider that in view of the annoyance caused throughout country districts this action has really been worth while for the war effort?
    Sir A. Duncan: I should not have thought there was the slightest doubt about that in anybody's mind.

  GENERAL GIRAUD'S SPEECH
  Mr. Arthur Greenwood(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make about General Giraud's recent speech.
  The Prime Minister: His Majesty's Government warmly welcome General Giraud's speech, in particular his repudiation of the armistice and his abolition of French legislation subsequent to 22nd June, 1940, as well as his decision that the municipal assemblies and the Conseils Généraux will resume their traditional rôle with their members elected by the people, and his abrogation of all racial distinction between native Moslem and Jewish inhabitants.
  In order to achieve the liberation of France through victory, Frenchmen everywhere must be united, and above all, all Frenchmen outside the Nazi power should act loyally against the common enemy without a day's needless delay. In view of General Giraud's speech and the National Committee's memorandum, it now appears that no questions of principle divide these two bodies of Frenchmen.
  I have informed the United States Government that I was proposing to make this statement, and I have reason to believe that they are in entire agreement with it.
  Mr. R. C. Morrison: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether any steps are being taken to make the text of General Giraud's speech known to the people of France?
  The Prime Minister: I will mention the matter to the Minister of Information. I do not know what has happened, but
  1190
  I think that undoubtedly action has been taken.
  Mr. Ivor Thomas: Can my right hon. Friend say whether it is General de Gaulle's intention to accept General Giraud's invitation to visit him?
  The Prime Minister: I do not know at the present time, because I understand the invitation has gone through General Catroux, as head of the Mission, and General Catroux is at present moving about, but I trust that a meeting between the two Generals will be arranged in due course.
  Mr. McGovern: Will that mean that the whole of the prisoners in North Africa will now be released?
  The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to the statement which I gave earlier in reply to another Question.

  BILL PRESENTED
    NURSES BILL,
    "to provide for the enrolment of assistant nurses for the sick, to restrict the use of the name or title of nurse, to regulate agencies for the supply of nurses for the sick and to amend the Nurses Registration Act, 1919;" presented by Mr. Ernest Brown, supported by Mr. Ernest Bevin, and the Attorney-General; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed. [Bill 18.]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
"That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 14, the Reports of Supplementary Estimates, 1942, and Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before the hour appointed for the interruption of Business; that the proceedings on the Reports from the Committee of Supply of 10th March, 25th February, 11th and 2nd March may be taken after the hour appointed for the interruption of Business, and that the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [3RD ALLOTTED DAY]
  REPORT [10 th March]

  SUPPLY
    NAVY ESTIMATES, 1943
    Resolutions reported:
    NUMBERS.
    1. "That such numbers of Officers, Seamen, Boys and Royal Marines and of Royal Marine Police, as His Majesty may deem necessary, be borne on the books of His Majesty's Ships and at the Royal Marine Divisions, for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1944."
    WAGES, ETC., OF OFFICERS AND MEN OF THE ROYAL NAVY AND ROYAL MARINES AND OF CERTAIN OTHER PERSONNEL SERVING WITH THE FLEET.
    2. "That a sum, not exceeding £100, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Wages, &c., of Officers and Men of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines and of certain other personnel serving with the Fleet, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1944."

    NAVY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1942.
    3. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 3rst day of March, 1943, for expenditure beyond the sum already provided in the grants for Navy Services for the year."

    Schedule

    Sums not exceeding

    Supply Grants.

    Appropriations in Aid.

    Vote

    £

    £

    1. Wages, &c., of Officers and Men of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines and of certain other personnel serving with the Fleet

    10

    38,000,000

    First Resolution read a Second Time.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
    Mr. Ammon: I want to raise one or two small points, in order particularly to give the Minister an opportunity of answering some of the
    1206
    questions which he was unable by reason of time to answer when his Estimates were last before the House. I would first call attention to the fact that the hon. Member for the Eye Division (Mr. Granville) raised a Question in this House yesterday, addressing it to the Prime Minister, as to whether or not the Prime Minister was satisfied with the machinery set up for dealing with the U-boats. I did not hear the reply, but upon reading the report I thought that the Prime Minister dealt with it rather curtly; and the answer seems largely contradicted by the news that the Press carries this morning and by the statement made by the First Lord himself in the last Debate. I raise this matter merely in order that we may get some clarification of the position. I understand that the Prime Minister said quite categorically that he was not prepared to consider any change of machinery, but the Press this morning gives a statement to the effect that there has been a conference in Washington between representatives of America, Great Britain and Canada to consider a general policy to deal with the U-boat position. On the face of it, it seems as though there has been some variation in the position. The First Lord stated last Wednesday that General Smuts had visited the Admiralty and had expressed himself as satisfied with the arrangements that were made. I thought of asking, in this connection, whether we can have some statement of exactly what the position is about the conference announced this morning, its ramifications and its powers. Does it differ in any way from the position that has obtained hitherto?
    I pass from that matter to refer to some points on which I sought some answer last week. First of all, I want again to ask whether all our shipyards are being fully used for shipbuilding and repair. What is the relative position between the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty and Sir James Lithgow? Can we have any statement as regards shipbuilding output? In that connection I would call the attention of the Minister to the 17th Report of the Select Committee on National Expenditure, which dealt with merchant shipbuilding and repair. In their recommendations there is one to which I call special attention. The Committee suggested there should be a training school for riveters set up in the main shipbuilding

    1207
    yards under the managements, and that inquiry should be instituted by the Ministry of Labour into the experience gained in the employment of women in other heavy industries and as to whether they could be employed in shipbuilding. They also ask whether the workers were doing satisfactory work, what steps were taken to see whether their reservations should be withdrawn and as to any use that had been made by the Ministry of Labour of consultation and of yard committees in order to smooth out any difficulties that might arise. They suggested that the Admiralty should specifically examine the problems and organisation of the slower and more costly shipyards and that a review should be made of yards engaged exclusively on naval work in order to ascertain whether they could take a certain percentage of merchant shipping.
    Mr. Speaker: I must call the attention of the hon. Member to the fact that the Resolution of the Committee which we are now discussing deals solely with personnel. We cannot discuss shipbuilding.
    Mr. Ammon: I will confine myself to personnel and will return to these other matters later.
    Mr. Austin Hopkinson: May we have your guidance, Mr. Speaker? Should we not be in Order on this Debate in referring to what has gone before in previous Debates on these Estimates in regard to aircraft, or are we debarred from so doing?
    Mr. Speaker: It depends entirely upon what is said. If reference is made to the Fleet Air Arm, no doubt the personnel of the Fleet Air Arm comes under the Vote which we are discussing. Aircraft production for the Fleet Air Arm certainly does not.
    Mr. Ammon: May I point out, Sir, that most of the points I have raised concerned personnel, particularly as to the employment of certain types of riveter and as to whether yard committees were being consulted, and so forth. I do not think I wandered very far from the strict bounds of Order. The other point I wish to raise, and which I raised last time, is the position of the security officer. What is his duty and what is his rank, and who is he? I see that that question was raised in another place some time ago. The answer
    1208
    which was given was not too clear. This will be an opportunity for the Minister to give us some indication on the matter. The only other point, having regard to your Ruling, Sir, which I want to put forward is whether we can have some information about the scholarship entries relating to new entrants. I want to refer to paragraphs 21 and 22 of the 17th Report of the Select Committee, which I think, having regard to your Ruling, will fall within the category of personnel. The Committee there deal with the question merely of the persons employed. I want to call special attention to this matter, and I crave the indulgence of the House while I read the paragraph. My first reference is in paragraph 22, where the Committee say:
    "Though there is general agreement that workers in shipyards are working pretty well and the increased rate of output already referred to"——
    Mr. Speaker: I have already stated that shipbuilding and shipyards is a subject not in Order on the Vote that we are now discussing.
    Mr. Ammon: I am not concerned now with either shipbuilding or shipyards, Mr. Speaker. I am raising questions as to employees in those yards.
    Mr. Speaker: They do not come under this Vote either.
    Mr. Ammon: All right, Sir.
    Mr. Hopkinson: I hope I shall be in Order in making reference to the personnel of the staffs concerned with the technicalities of the aeroplanes used in the Fleet Air Arm. The matter was raised in the Debate last week. I am subject to your guidance, Sir, and will endeavour to keep within your Ruling. The unfortunate part about the House of Commons on such occasions as this is that technical knowledge among Members is conspicuous by its absence. My excuse for raising the matter is that I have been engaged all my life upon these technicalities, and throughout the whole of the war on technical matters relating to the Fleet Air Arm. I want to put it to the First Lord of the Admiralty that the staff concerned with the Fleet Air Arm is gravely deficient in one respect. The deficiency is felt equally in the Royal Air Force. It is a lack of a technical staff strong enough, and of great enough experience in aircraft design and construction to be able to

    1209
    criticise designs and to save the country from having to put up with inferior machines, simply because there is no one at the Admiralty capable of saying what the design should be.
    Take the case in point raised by the hon. Member for Broxstowe (Mr. Cocks), of three aircraft in the Fleet Air Arm, I shall call them X, Y and Z. They were designed and produced originally by the same firm. It happens that that firm some years ago broke down to a large extent in the designing of aircraft. What the circumstances were, I do not know. Possibly the firm lost designers, or the skill of their designers fell off as the designers got older; but, notoriously, the productions of that firm became very inferior indeed. Aircraft X, of which there are a large number in the Fleet Air Arm, was, in its day, a most admirable machine for its purpose. At the beginning of the war, a replacement, which I call Y, was designed and put forward by the same firm. The replacement was approved by the Admiralty staff, but I venture to say that any competent engineer would have condemned it root and branch from the very start. I spent the whole of an afternoon in investigating the prototype, and I at once put in a real snorter of a report, pointing out that it was quite hopeless and that it could not possibly be any improvement upon machine X which was already in service.
    I may say, as an example of the haphazard way in which these aircraft are designed, that one of the first modifications of the air-frame completely changed the whole principle underlying the design of the machine. But the trouble is this, that although in this particular instance it was clear to—I will not say an able but, at any rate, an experienced engineer—that this machine was unsuitable to replace the machine already in use, and although I put in a complete condemnation of it on the spot, not the faintest attention was paid to the remarks which I made upon it. It seems to me in that connection that a Member of this House on joining the Fleet Air Arm ought to demand to be made an admiral straight away; if that had been done in my case, possibly my views on matters within my experience might have received some consideration. However, as I say, I put in at once a report condemning this machine root and branch, and the operational people also condemned it from an operational
    1210
    point of view, yet over 600 of these wretched aircraft were turned out, and at least two and a half years were absolutely thrown away in producing aircraft which were inferior to the machines they were intended to replace.
    Mr. Speaker: I think the hon. Member is now discussing the Ministry of Aircraft Production and not the administration of the Navy.
    Mr. Hopkinson: Subject to your guidance, Sir, I was endeavouring, perhaps not very successfully, to point out that there was a deficiency of personnel in the Admiralty, and I was giving, perhaps at too great length examples to show how that deficiency of personnel affected the efficiency of the Fleet Air Arm. Subject to your Ruling, however, I shall try to reduce those examples to an absolute minimum. But I trust the First Lord will realise that the fiasco which I have described could not have happened if he had a technical body at the Admiralty capable of criticising the designs of machines. That is what I have asked for, again and again, in past years, both in the case of the Admiralty and in that of the Air Ministry, and why nothing has ever been done I cannot tell. Everything is in the hands of the aircraft firms, and everything depends upon the personnel of those firms. I ask the First Lord, even at this late hour, to consider this matter seriously. The one remedy is what I have been asking for on every possible occasion, namely, the creation of a proper technical staff at the Admiralty capable of saying what the aircraft ought to be like and capable of condemning those which are wholly unsuitable for the work which they are expected to perform.
    Mr. Clement Davies: Anyone who listened to the Debates of last week and the previous week on the Navy Estimates and even those who have contented themselves with reading the speeches made on those occasions, will understand the deep anxiety of this House in regard to the present position. Usually, the statement made by the First Lord on the Navy Estimates is accepted by the House with a sort of generous enthusiasm, but anyone who attended this year's Debates on the Service Estimates will have realised that, for the first time, the House was giving the First Lord not only an anxious hearing but a rather cold reception. I think the situation was

    1211
    summed out by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lewes (Rear-Admiral Beamish) in his very remarkable speech, when he said:
    "I hope that public anger, anxiety and criticism will arise in consequence of what we have heard to-day."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th March, 1943; col. 796; Vol. 387.]
    That is a very serious statement, and the situation, of course, is serious—far more serious I should think, than it was at any time during the last war. One has but to consider the difference between the situation existing at any time during the last war and the situation which exists to-day. We all know how near disaster we came in the last war, but consider that in the last war we had at one time five navies fighting on our side and against us only one real navy. At present there are two of us, against two of the enemy. The Pacific, the Indian Ocean, the China Seas were all free in the last war. The really dangerous areas were the narrow seas, the coasts of Spain and France and the coast of Ireland. To a large extent the Mediterranean was free. At that time we had something like 950 destroyers helping to guard our convoys. That total was made up from the five navies which were on our side. In this war we had less than a quarter. That is how we were at the beginning of this war, when we were face to face with the situation as it had existed throughout 1938 and 1939.
    There is another matter to which attention should have been called more often, and that is the difference between our merchant shipping position at the beginning of the last war and at the beginning of this. In the last war we occupied a dominating position as far as merchant ships were concerned. We had 8,578 motor ships and steamships, with a total of over 18,800,000 tons. At the beginning of this war we had, unfortunately, lost the dominating position, although we still had the premier position. We started this war with only 6,722 ships—a tonnage of 17,800,000 tons. So, we had 1,856 fewer ships and 1,000,000 tons less tonnage. At the same time, as has been said here time and again, we have 5,000,000 more mouths to feed and longer voyages to make. Not only that, but the Admiralty knew that they would be faced with a new combination of which they had not had any experience before. Previously,
    1212
    the combination which they had to face was that of the surface ships and the U-boats. There had not been much co-operation between the aeroplane and the submarine prior to this war. But they knew they would now have to meet that combination—that was the position which faced us on 3rd September, 1929.
    I cannot do better than to quote these words as a warning:
    "The position of the British Isles and Empire was such that effectual and final interruption of sea communications by any agencies meant—not defeat but destruction. Impotence, starvation, subjugation stalked across the mental screen."
    You can well imagine who wrote those words. They were written by the Prime Minister in his book "The World Crisis" with a knowledge of what was then the position in front of us. What was the attitude of the Admiralty? It was expressed by the hon. Baronet the Member for Norwich (Sir G. Shakespeare) in March, 1939, on these very Estimates, when he said:
    "…the menace of the submarine will not be as serious as in the last war."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th March, 1939; col. 653, Vol. 345.]
    Why did he say that? Because the Admiralty now thought that they had solved this difficulty with two things. One was the convoy system, and the other was the invention of the thing known as the Asdic. They were now so settled in their minds that they felt that the convoy system would supply the solution, the very Admiralty that had opposed the convoy system during the early years of the last war until they were compelled by criticism from outside to adopt it. Once having adopted it, their mind would travel no further but accepted it as a solution.
    The hon. Baronet went on and said that with the Asdic you could locate a submarine nine times out of 10. They thought they were safe—without paying attention to the other side, that the submarines could locate the convoy and get information, not only from one another by radio, but also from the air. No wonder that after 3½ years of war the reception which the First Lord got from the House was a cool one, because what has been the attitude of the First Lord? He has indulged in what have become familiar to us now as his characteristic qualities—vanity, complacency, and a fretful resentment at any inquiry or even

    1213
    advice; and he assumes an attitude with regard to the Navy and with regard to the Admiralty of almost proprietary rights which is almost ludicrous. Just think what he said. He said that high officers were brought back from sea to advise him on operational matters.
    The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. A. V. Alexander): The First Sea Lord.
    Mr. Davies: Surely the First Lord was referring to himself. Will he again look, as I have looked, through the OFFICIAL REPORT? No one imagines that the First Lord has anything to do with operational matters. Operational matters are guided by the Prime Minister and the War Cabinet, and the First Sea Lord is his instrument. Operational matters require hour-to-hour supervision. Every moment of the day must be devoted to them, and no man guiding operational matters has any time to spare, as the right hon. Gentleman has to spare, for speech making, for inspection visits, and for social functions, of which I am perfectly sure he holds the record on that bench. Operational matters are not for him. Let him adopt the straightforward frankness of the Secretary of State for War, who, I observed recently, said when he was asked with regard to his position that he was responsible only for administration and organisation, that operational matters and strategy were not for him, but only for the Prime Minister and the War Cabinet. Instead of pretending that he has anything to do with regard to these matters, it would have been better if the right hon. Gentleman had confined himself to his real duty, that is, to provide the Navy with the materials they require.
    What is the danger? In the last war the greatest number of U-boats out against us was 169, and in spite of our efforts we were within three weeks of disaster. What are the figures to-day? No one has suggested that less than 20 a month are being built. Varying figures—20 and 30—have been given. Let us take the middle figure; that is 300 a year, and that not without warning. One heard rumours during 1936, 1937, 1938 and the early part of 1939 about the increased preparations for the building of U-boats inland so that they could then be assembled and put straight in the sea.
    Mr. Montague: May I ask whether we are still on Vote I?
    Mr. Speaker: Yes, we are still on Vote A.
    Mr. Davies: That was known to us. There are the numbers. It has never been suggested that at any time we were sinking more U-boats than were being created. And what types? Types capable of going far longer distances than before, capable of far higher speeds, capable of operating in places where we never thought they could get to, capable now of being refuelled at sea, and of operating so far afield that one does not know of any spot where there is complete safety. What were the preparations to meet that? I have already quoted what the Admiralty attitude was just before the war began: "The U-boat menace will not be as serious as in the last war." What is our position to-day? What are our losses? We have been given information of the naval losses, and they are serious. A whole mighty fleet has gone, and with those vessels irreplaceable people. What are the losses to the cargo-carrying ships which the Admiralty have to protect? At one time we were told what these losses were. Why cannot we be told now? Why indulge us all the time with vague phrases such as we are given—"You will possibly have to tighten your belts," "Eat less bread," "The situation is menacing"? Tell us the facts. The people of this country have never been afraid of the truth. Tell them what the actual figures are. What is it suggested that that information would convey? It was given in an answer to-day, that it would convey information to the enemy. Cannot the enemy make calculations which are about nearly right?
    Mr. Colegate: No.
    Mr. Davies: Why not? The hon. and gallant Member for the Pollok division (Commander Galbraith), speaking last week, made a most interesting calculation, based on what? On a statement made by the Prime Minister and the general broadcasting as to what is the production from America and this country. The Prime Minister, standing at the Box, said that building exceeded losses by 1,250,000 tons. The hon. and gallant Member for Pollok says that, broadly, we know that

    1215
    the American building in 1942 was 8,000,000 tons, and the bulk of that must have been in the last six months. He makes a modest estimate and asks us to assume that the building was 4,250,000 tons and that the building of this country and Canada was 1,000,000 tons. That makes 5,250,000 tons. Deduct 1,250,000 tons from that, and what is the amount of loss in six months? It is 4,000,000 tons. What do the Germans claim? Eight million tons in 12 months. They can make calculations as near as no matter. What is the point of hiding information from them? How will it guide them in anything?
    Is this the real truth? Are the Government afraid of publishing the figures because they may show inefficiency or neglect somewhere? The call is going to be much heavier as we go along. The call on these merchant ships and on the protecting ships of the Navy will increase as the American Forces leave America and go to various parts of the world; it will increase as the call of Russia for more supplies increases; it will increase as the call of Australia, New Zealand and India goes up; and of course it will increase the moment the second front starts. What are your preparations? The test of our real position is this. What tonnage is coming into this country under that protection today? What tonnage is coming in in petroleum, lubricating oil, raw materials, manufactured goods and food? We know that prior to the war we wanted 68,000,000 tons of raw material, manufactured articles and food. That was carried not only on British bottoms but on world shipping, upon which we were dependent. Every ship on the sea, belonging not only to us and to our Allies but to neutrals, was an asset to us. Every one lost was a dead loss to us.
    The hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) made a most serious charge, which has not been answered. I call attention to his charge—the most serious of all—that the danger point has been passed. Is that true? If it is, it is time the people were told, so that we may know what is expected of us. If it is not true, raise our hearts by telling us what the true position is. What have the Government done to try to meet this menace? What is being done now? In February, 1941, the Prime Minister formed what he called
    1216
    the Battle of the Atlantic Committee. That is a high-sounding name, but even the name does not come up to the description he gave it. He said:
    "It was formed under my personal direction, to focus and emphasise the need for supreme exertions."
    How often did this Committee meet? It lasted from February, 1941, to October, 1942. It met, all told, 18 times in those 20 months, and the bulk of those meetings were in the first few weeks of its existence. That is the Committee which the Prime Minister said.
    "was formed under my personal direction, to focus and emphasise the need for supreme exertions."
    In October, 1942, he reconstituted it, and again put on men with full-time jobs. He is himself the hardest-worked of the lot, and he is Chairman. He put on the Minister of Aircraft Production.
    Mr. Speaker: This is not the occasion to discuss the composition of that Committee.
    Mr. Davies: What is the Admiralty doing in regard to these matters? How does it function in regard to these matters, and how is it really devoting itself to the most serious situation of all? The military situation is better, without a doubt. Production has improved. American production has gone up to almost astronomical figures. But if the Navy and the Merchant Service break down, production in America will remain in America, and not where it is wanted. Even our aircraft will be tied to the ground, for lack of petrol; and what becomes then of our military situation? Faster ships have been suggested. One of the right hon. Gentleman's first stories at that Box was about the seriousness arising from the slowness of convoys. Therefore, they ought to be speeded up. The right hon. Gentleman now puts forward two answers to the demand for fast ships. He says (1) that they take longer to build, (2) that they do not carry as much, and (3) that the losses among fast ships are really as bad as those among slow ships. That is one answer. The other is that we are building them.
    Mr. Speaker: Shipbuilding comes under another Vote, and the hon. and learned Member cannot discuss it on Vote A.
    Mr. Davies: I did not intend to go into detail on the matter, but the right hon.

    1217
    gentleman cannot have it both ways. If fast ships are the answer, they should have been begun before this. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty says that one-third of those on order or under construction are now in the fast category. If the disadvantages of the fast ships are as great as those of the slow ships, why build them? If the advantages are all on the side of the fast ships, why did we not start building them before now? How do we stand with regard to air protection? Coastal Command want aircraft. What is the reply from that Bench? "True," says the First Lord, "they are vital: the menace is serious; but I cannot get them." Is that correct? The First Lord also said that they took complete command over the Fleet Air Arm only in 1939. The Fleet Air Arm was formed in 1924. Complete control over it was in the hands of the Admiralty certainly in 1937; and from 1924, under the Balfour Committee, the Admiralty had full power to say what they wanted and what their demand was. They had full control over that. Air Marshal Newall has said publicly that whatever they demanded they got precisely and exactly.
    I suppose that I would be out of Order if I ran through what has happened with regard to the Fleet Air Arm and all the failures that there have been. It is no good telling us about the heroic deeds of the men. We know them. Their story is not merely one of peril and anxiety. What might these boys have done if they had had the proper instruments in their hands. Would those two vessels have been to-day back in harbour in Germany if the policy of the Admiralty had been the correct one? What about the others that were to follow—the Albatross, the Skua and the Fulmar? Now we come to the last, the Barracuda, heard of in 1939. Now we are told that production is coming forward. We were told that nearly 12 months ago, I believe, in those exact words. What is the policy? Indeed, the First Lord pins his faith on what he has got. The hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks), in that very able speech giving details and facts, had his doubts. I hope that the First Lord is right. We want to know, not these vague statements that something is now developing or coming forward or that we are thinking about them, but whether they are going to be in the hands of the Navy for operational purposes and in such quantities
    1218
    that operations can be carried out on a large scale. These are the matters which are worrying us.
    May I end with this? The Admiralty has been for a very long time under the control of the right hon. Gentleman and also of the First Sea Lord, who has been there right from the outset of the war. The Navy, the protection of our shipping, the carriage of goods and of our men are the most vital things of all. We cannot possibly retain old methods standing between us and what is necessary for our own salvation, nor in any circumstances should any men or any set of men stand between us and what is required and the proper weapons being put into the hands of our men. It is for these reasons that I consider it to be right to call attention to these matters.
    Mr. Astor: Mr. Speaker, I rise with a certain amount of confidence as I, unlike the previous speakers, really want to speak about Vote A, on the question of naval personnel, but before I start on that I would like to repudiate, disavow, and dissociate myself from, the personal attack on the First Lord for going round and visiting the Fleet. Nothing pleases the officers and men of the ports and fleets more than that members of the Board of Admiralty should take the trouble to visit them personally.
    I do not know whether the House realises to what extent the Navy is now manned by men of the various Reserves. It has authoritatively been said that war at sea is no longer being fought by the Royal Navy, assisted by the R.N.V.R. and the R.N.R., but by the R.N.V.R. with a small leven of the Royal Navy. We are going to win the Battle of the Atlantic and the naval war in so far as we use all the talent available in the reserves to the best possible advantage. At the beginning of the war, the first Reservists who were called up were the R.N. retired, the Regular naval officer who had been passed over for promotion and had retired or who had found peace-time sailoring dull and had gone into some other work. It is rather important that, while it is fresh in our memory, it should be put on record that there was in peace-time no system by which the Admiralty could keep track of the capacities, abilities, health and other important points about officers who had

    1219
    retired. The result was that many officers were sent to climates which their health was completely incapable of withstanding and to work which they had lost the ability to perform.
    I need not go into examples of that, but I will make the following constructive suggestions. In peace-time R.N. retired officers should be called up every two years for a medical examination and an interview; secondly, there should be in every county an association of R.N. retired officers, with a county secretary, whose job it would be to keep in touch with all retired Regular naval officers in his area and be able to advise the Second Sea Lord's Department of the kind of work to which they would be suitable in the event of mobilisation. Then the situation arising from putting many square pegs into round holes would not occur again. You get some R.N. retired officers who, in the ordinary course of age and the living of sedentary lives may not be very suitable for active work. On the other hand, some of the very best of Regular officers do get retired. Perhaps they may have had a clash with their immediate superior, or perhaps they have found peace-time sailoring dull, and they have often gone into business and made a great success of it. It is imperative that the R.N. retired officers who come back should be treated on absolute equality and have the chance of going right up after war starts. Striking examples of this are to be found in Admiral Somerville and Admiral Ramsay, two of the most successful flag officers the war has produced, who were both retired when the war began. It should be laid down officially that the R.N. officer retired should have the same right of promotion as the R.N. officer who is not retired.
    The next category is the Royal Naval Reserve, who are officers of the Merchant Navy, who undergo certain training in peace-time and who are mobilised when war starts. It is a comparatively small force numerically, but it is very important that, if they are to be taken way from the Merchant Navy, where they are certainly needed, they should be given ample scope. They feel that they do not get an equal chance to command ships, and that the most they can get is the command of the corvette. A R.N.R. officer who might have commanded a corvette and have had
    1220
    a long sea experience will be passed over by a R.N. officer with far less experience. There have been exceptions, but it would please the R.N.R. very much if it was laid down by the First Lord that everybody should be considered for commands on their personal merits no matter the shape of the stripes on their arm. Another discrimination is that the R.N.R. officer has not the same advantage of progressive pay as the R.N. officer. There is a third point. Those who may not have been R.N.R. officers before the war but have been called up and put into the Sea Transport Department get far quicker promotion than those who have been regular R.N.R. officers and are serving at sea.
    These are comparatively small classes compared with the R.N.V.R. As a pure guess, taking rough figures, I should say that the R.N.V.R. constitute about 80 per cent. of the naval officers to-day, yet their prospects of promotion and command are poor compared to what they would have had if they had gone into the Army or into the Royal Air Force. In the Army, if you are appointed to an appointment as a G1 or G2, no matter what your rank may be, you get the rank of that appointment when you are holding it.
    That is not the case in the Navy. I have known a case of an R.N.V.R. officer, lieutenant, who took on a captain's job but remained a lieutenant for a long time. The argument the authorities put forward is that, if you know your job, with the prestige of the Navy behind you, you are capable of holding your own with officers who are doing equivalent work in the Army or Royal Air Force, no matter if they hold superior rank to you. That is true to a certain extent, but is it fair on their wives? Is it fair that the wife of a junior R.N.V.R. officer holding a job which would normally be a commander's R.N. job, who may be living in the same place as the wife of the Army officer, should not be able to have the same pay and allowances and to be able to extend hospitality and generally take the position she would have had if her husband had been in the Army and had been given the equivalent rank and pay of the job he was holding? There is no doubt in the Navy that stripes do count, and if an R.N.V.R. officer is suitable to hold a job, he should get the equivalent stripes. At the present moment many R.N.V.R. officers do not get the job for which they are suitable because they have not the stripes. It is a

    1221
    vicious circle. You occasionally get offices where work is done by an R.N.V.R. officer, and an R.N. officer wears the brass hat.
    The Admiralty try to have it both ways. If there is a rear-admiral retired like my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South Paddington (Vice-Admiral Taylor) and he cannot be given an admiral's job and is given a captain's job, then they de-stripe him downwards; but they do not stripe reserve officers upwards to their jobs. That is not really a fair situation. In peace-time the argument of the Admiralty is that anybody who holds lieut-commander's rank or commander's rank should be suitable for any commander's job or any job of that rank. He must be suitable to command a destroyer, to be a staff officer or an intelligence officer or whatever it may be. That is a proper ideal in peacetime, but it is not practicable in war-time. Many R.N.V.R. officers are suitable to go up to one particular job, it may be a mine-sweeping job or a staff job, although they may not be capable of being Commander in the "Queen Elizabeth." But you cannot have this standard in war-time although it is a proper ideal in peace. The present system makes it impossible to employ your R.N.V.R. officer to the fullest extent of their capabilities.
    I would like to say a word for the regular R.N.V.R. officer who was in the reserve before the war vis a vis the "hostility only" naval officer. We have many officers wearing R.N.V.R. stripes who are not really volunteers or reservists. They are not volunteers in the sense that they were called up in their age group; they are not reservists in the sense that they did not join and train before the war.
    There is a feeling among Regular R.N.V.R. officers that they should have some sort of recognition because of the fact that there was very little encouragement given to them. They fitted themselves by peace time training, often in their own time and at their own expense. It is said sometimes that it would be better if they all wore the same stripes, and I know some Regular R.N.R. officers think that R.N.V.R. officers would have more authority if he wore straight stripes. I have spoken to many R.N.V.R. officers, and I can assure the First Lord that many of us are as proud of our wavy stripes as the Highlander is of his wavy kilt and
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    we would give them up with the greatest possible reluctance. If you are to use the R.N.V.R. to the fullest extent, it would be advisable to have some staff courses in order to train R.N.V.R. officers for such appointments.
    An R.N.V.R. officer has an advantage in a staff appointment in that he has a certain degree of independence; he is not making the Navy his career, and he does not have to think of his prospect of promotion later. The present system of confining big ships and destroyers to R.N. officers—with certain exceptions, I know—corvettes to R.N.R. officers and light craft and the Fleet Air Arm to R.N.V.R. officers does mean that in the Fleet Air Arm and the light coastal forces nearly all the practical experience is now in the hands of R.N.V.R. officers. That fact, after only four years of war, should be recognised. If we are to get the maximum efficiency, R.N.V.R. officers should be taken into the Admiralty, high up. I do not think it is unreasonable to hope that we may see an R.N.V.R. officer on the Board of Admiralty before the war is out. Finally, on this question of the use of personnel, may I say that members of the W.R.N.S. are being most useful in many ways, but there are still many jobs ashore, such as paymasters, admirals' secretaries and staff jobs of various kinds for which university-educated women could definitely be trained so that more men could be released for sea duties. A lot has been done, but there is still more to do.
    I hope the First Lord will realise that these suggestions have been put forward in a most friendly spirit; there is no question of airing grievances, still less any personal one, as probably the three happiest years of my life have been those I have spent in the Navy. Personal relations between the R.N. and the R.N.V.R. have been, and are, absolutely excellent, and while I am on this question of personnel may I mention two things which do not come directly on this Vote? The hon. and learned Member who spoke last said that we were fighting alone. Well, I have worked with the Greek Navy, which works so closely with us that one never pauses to think whether a man is Greek or English. He is just one of us. Perhaps the House may have heard of the Greek submarine "Papanicolis," which performed the unprecedented feat

    1223
    of torpedoing three Italian transports with one salvo. They may not have heard the comment of a Greek in a club in Cairo who buttoned-holed everybody who came in and said, "I know the officer in command of that submarine. He was going to be turned out of the Navy before the war because of defective eyesight. Think of how many more he might have torpedoed if he could have seen properly!"
    And whatever political and other differences may have arisen between the Fighting French and ourselves, they have never been reflected in the relations of the Royal Navy and the Fighting French Navy. There has been the happiest possible co-operation. In Syria we worked in the same offices, and kept no secrets from each other. It was a real joy to work with them and with the Greeks; we have been a band of brothers. I cannot ask the First Lord to give a detailed answer to all the suggestions I have put forward to-day, but I hope he will look into them sympathetically, because I am not putting my own views but views widely held by R.N.V.R. and R.N.R. officers who are proud to be associated with the service of which the right hon. Gentleman is head.
    Mr. Tinker: I want to commend the speech which has just been made by the hon. Member for East Fulham (Mr. Astor), whose practical suggestions will, I hope, be noted by the Admiralty. The tone and temper of his speech were very different from that which was made a short time ago by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), to whom I would like to utter a word of warning. It is this: When a critic criticises everything, there comes a time when not so much notice is taken of him. When a critic devotes himself to criticism on every subject, his criticism loses effect, and probably his criticism of the First Lord to-day would have been more effective if it had not been his habit to criticise everything. Every time he speaks he seems to be a harsh critic of everything the Government are doing, and I hope he will take a lesson from that and sometimes see the good points in what the Government are doing from time to time.
    Now I would like to ask the First Lord whether it is possible to cut out some of the bunkum associated with speechmaking
    1224
    luncheons. I am not objecting to the speeches, but the fact that they are made at luncheons does not go down well with the public at a time when there are restrictions on food. Is it not possible for meetings or gatherings to be arranged without having a luncheon? I hope the Government will take note of what is being said in the country. I want to refer principally, however, to a matter which caused me grave concern in the Debate on the Navy Estimates last week, when the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) made a criticism of certain things he alleged to have happened and charged the Admiralty with something which ought to have been met more fully than it was met. Dealing with the loss of three ships, the hon. Member said in that Debate:
    "I can tell the House of the conditions in which certain fast vessels were lost. I am not intending to give information to the enemy and therefore I shall not name the vessels. They were three very fast vessels of round about 20,000 tons. I am trying to be as evasive as possible. They were on their way home, possibly in the South Atlantic, and they were torpedoed. They were sailing singly. I have always maintained that these vessels could sail singly and elude submarines. The Admiralty evidently believe that, because these vessels were sailing singly. They were three of our finest vessels but I shall not mention the names of the companies. They were all lost. Why? They were all torpedoed within seven days, because the Admiralty ordered those vessels not to sail at their normal speed but to reduce speed to 15 knots in order to save oil fuel."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th March, 1943; cols. 738–9, Vol. 387.]
    That is a damning indictment if there is any truth in that statement. When I heard it I thought the First Lord would have been on his feet at once to repudiate it. Why he did not was probably because, not having had notice, he wanted to examine the position before replying. Later my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary did make a reply, and this is what was said:
    MR. HALL: I was about to reply to the specific point concerning the saving of fuel. I want to assure the House that what was done was not done for the purposes of economy. The ship referred to——
    MR. SHINWELL: Three ships.
    MR. HALL: One of the ships referred to by my hon. Friend took on sufficient fuel to reach a certain port at full speed. It was discovered that there was an assembly of attacking submarines on the route through which the ships would have had to go, and this ship was, therefore, diverted from the normal route, with the result that the distance it had to travel was

    1225
    very much longer than the distance allowed for by the amount of oil fuel which was taken aboard. There was no instruction whatever that these ships should go at a slower speed to save oil. As I have said, they started out with sufficient oil for a full-speed journey without deviation. I think the explanation is quite clear. The course had to be altered for safety reasons. Owing to the route being much longer, the ship could not go at full speed, but had to travel at reduced speed. There was no instruction that there should be a saving of fuel.
    MR. SHINWELL: May I ask one question? There are survivors of these ships, including officers. Has the question of what they think of the slowing down of these vessels been put to them? The officers ought to know.
    MR. HALL: It is impossible to give a reply to that question.
    MR. SHINWELL: Will you inquire?—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th March, 1943; cols. 754–5, Vol. 387.]
    What I want to know is whether the Government have made inquiries into that statement made by the hon. Member for Seaham and whether the House can be given a denial of the allegations made in that statement. I cannot believe the hon. Member's statement is true, and for the honour of the Navy and the country I have taken this opportunity of raising this question specifically to give the First Lord or somebody on the Front Bench an opportunity of refuting it if they can. I warned the hon. Member for Seaham and the First Lord that I intended to raise this question to-day if I had the opportunity. It is so serious that one feels that it ought to be brought to light again in order to give the First Lord a chance of explaining the position. I do not know much about naval matters, but I felt that this was a matter which should be straightened out for the satisfaction of myself and the country.
    Rear-Admiral Beamish: I intend to make only a very short speech and to refer in particular to a question of personnel, but before I do that I would like to refer to the speech made by the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies). I welcomed that speech because I cannot help feeling that a great deal of useful light is thrown upon professional subjects when a clear and trained mind which is not professional in respect of the subject under discussion is brought to bear on our Debates. Many of the points raised by the hon. and learned Member were very interesting, but with regard to his reference to losses by submarines may I say that the principal thing
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    is to leave the enemy in every possible doubt, puzzled as to what is going on? Let the enemy tell his stories. If we once embark upon a policy of publishing figures, one never knows where it might end. It might end by having to give the numbers of ships or even their names. When one considers the different areas of ocean, the North and South Atlantic, the coast of South America, the Caribbean and the Indian Ocean, my own feeling is that we should keep these figures completely from the enemy.
    I want to say a word or two about the admirable speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Fulham (Mr. Astor). What he said about officers and men of the Reserve, and not of the Reserve, who now form part of the Navy I cordially endorse. It may be interesting to the House to know that at the end of the last war the number of officers and men who had come into the Navy as compared with the Regular officers and men was something like four and a half or five to one, and I should be greatly surprised if that figure had not been greatly exceeded in this war. I think the claims of officers with R.N.V.R. experience should be carefully considered by the Admiralty.
    The personnel question concerns the coastguards, of which the Admiralty have operational control. I understand they are not paid by the Admiralty, and I hope I am in Order in mentioning it, because they must at least have some of their apparatus paid for by the Admiralty, and, as I understand they are an armed force, they must come under the Admiralty Vote in some way or another. These thousands of men are under the Naval Discipline Act, which subjects them to court-martial—and some have been court-martialled—a most serious thing for people to have to suffer, so that the care and consideration of our coastguards is very much an Admiralty question. The answer which the Deputy Prime Minister recently gave to a Question I addressed to him made it clear that this force has been looked after at different times since 1924 by five different Ministries. At the present time there is a thorough muddle about how a man in my constituency, who belongs to the coastguard and was working under the operational control of the Admiralty and was wounded a short time ago, is to be compensated. If I cared to do so, I could

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    make a big case of this matter, but I do not want to do that; I ask the First Lord to be good enough to look into the matter with a view to seeing whether it is possible to simplify the whole system with regard to this force and for this wonderful and dear old force to come back completely under the Admiralty, as it was when I was a young man. I want, finally, to refer to publicity. I would remind the First Lord that although I mentioned this matter in my speech in the Debate on the Estimates, he did not say what I hoped he would say, that the Admiralty would do everything they could in every way and without stinting the supply of officers, men or money to promote the best possible publicity for the Navy, which for a long time has not had anything like sufficient publicity.
    Mr. Cocks: The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) said how tragic it was that the pilots of the Fleet Air Arm had not been provided in the past with the very best machines. All of us are glad to know that in the Martletts, Hurricanes and Seafires they have better machines now. Although those machines are very good, I feel sure the Admiralty will not be satisfied to allow the matter to rest there, but will go on to get better ones. After all, two of those machines are already slightly slower than the latest German fighters and even the Seafire, which the First Lord described as the best naval fighter in existence, is only a modification of Spitfire V and is not so good as the Spitfire IX which is in use by the Royal Air Force at the present time. I was very glad to hear what the First Lord said about new types being developed and I hope they will come into operational use soon.
    Some remarks that I made last week about the Barracuda have caused some resentment on the part of a firm of aircraft manufacturers. I wish to say that I made no criticism at all of the workers or workmanship. I said that, not being an expert engineer myself, if I were shown the machine I would not know whether it was a good one or not. I said that certain authorities had criticised the design and told me that it was defective in many ways, and that they did not like it at all. In his reply to me the First Lord said that the defects had been cleared away and that, according to all the professional
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    advice he had, the machine was first-class. I was very glad indeed to hear that, and, of course, I accept that statement. I hope the right hon. Gentleman's professional advice will have been correct and that the Barracuda will prove a real success and a terror to our country's foes. The last thing I want to say is anything that might discourage either the workers making the machines or the pilots flying them.
    May I say a word or two about the men in Coastal Command? The other day the Secretary of State for Air paid a great tribute to them. He described how the crews go out in all weather and sometimes for 24 hours at a stretch, cooped up in the same machine. He said also, on another occasion, that as a result of the work of the crews of Coastal Command, no U-boat dared at the present time to show itself on the surface within 300 miles of our shores. On the American side there has been a similar statement that since 9th September not a single ship has been sunk by a submarine in the 1,000,000 square miles of water coming under the operational area of the First Bomber Command of the United States Army. There is, therefore, on both sides an area dominated by land-based aircraft where submarines have to keep below the water. What we have done on both sides of the Atlantic within 300 miles of the shores we want to do in mid-ocean as well and to drive the submarine from there. To do that Coastal Command ought to be equipped with fast long-range shore-based bombers of the very latest types. As the Secretary of State for Air said, the crews have to be out in all weathers and sometimes for 24 hours at a stretch. Even Whitleys, Wellingtons and Halifaxes are really not good enough for these men. They ought to have the best machines. I hope the Admiralty will insist that they be provided with the finest long-range bomber that exists—the Lancaster. I hope they will do that because this battle against the U-boat is the supreme issue between life and death for this country.
    Mr. Granville: I am sure that no one who heard the speech in which my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks) dealt with the Barracuda would accuse him of desiring to discourage the workers, the designing staffs or the managements in the aircraft industry. I think my hon. Friend did a great deal of

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    good by raising this matter in a public-spirited way. A little prodding of those responsible for priorities in supply will undoubtedly have done great good.
    I want to refer briefly to the question of supply in regard to the Fleet Air Arm, which was raised in the Debate on the Navy Estimates, because I am not satisfied that the House has given sufficient attention to the supply of aircraft for the Fleet Air Arm. The First Lord of the Admiralty, in a public speech, has appealed to the public to see that the Fleet Air Arm get better aircraft, but last week, in the Debate on the Estimates, the right hon. Gentleman said that the Fleet Air Arm were receiving from the factories increasing supplies of better aircraft. I have looked up the OFFICIAL REPORT, and I find that the First Lord said the same thing in last year's Debate on the Estimates. If the supplies of better aircraft were increasing last year, why does the right hon. Gentleman now have to make an appeal to the public to help him out of his difficulty? As public opinion is represented by hon. Members, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will pay great attention to the speech that was made by the hon. and gallant Member for Hythe (Lieut.-Commander Brabner), who is one of the distinguished young naval flyers and who Knows a great deal about this matter. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will take heed of the special plea that was made by the hon. and gallant Member to see that the gallant naval airmen are given better aircraft. It is no good the First Lord coming to the House and telling us that he is leaving no stone unturned, that everything in the garden is lovely, and that these things are going to be all right. The public has a very lively sense of the enormous debt which the country owes to our young naval airmen. People do not forget what happened when the "Scharnhorst" and the "Gneisenau" went up the Channel and the young naval pilots went out literally to certain death in those antiquated crates, the Swordfish. It is not enough for the First Lord time after time to tell us here and to say in public speeches that these things will get better.
    According to the Prime Minister, we shall have to undertake enormous responsibilities in the Far East when we have disposed of Hitler. An increasing responsibility will then be placed upon the Fleet Air Arm. Can the right hon.
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    Gentleman give us an assurance now that when the Fleet Air Arm have to go out and fight, as the Americans are having to fight now, in the Pacific, they will be given adequate, efficient and effective aircraft to enable them to undertake their responsibility? I know what the First Lord's position is. He looks over his shoulder and says "I shall be able to look to the United States of America for the supplies of those particular dive-bombers and torpedo-bombers which I may require." But this is an important question for the British Admiralty. Aircraft are vital to the Fleet, as recent actions have shown. Technical design, research and development do not stand still at the present time. It is just as vital to design effective and efficient sea-fighters, 21 inch torpedo-bombers and machines of that kind, as it is to design battleships. They are complementary. If the right hon. Gentleman continues to look over his shoulder and say, "I hope the supplies from America will come forward in quantities which will enable us to face our obligations in the Pacific," he will be taking upon himself an enormous responsibility. Surely, it is absolutely vital to the future of the British fleet, to our responsibilities to the Dominions and the part we shall have to play when we go to the Pacific war, to see that no stone is left unturned to produce now our own 21 inch torpedo-bombers and other effective machines for the Fleet Air Arm.
    I think the country is getting extremely tired of general appeals for effective and efficient machines for the Fleet Air Arm. This country has an enormous potential in aircraft production. There are sufficient brains in the industry in this country to enable us to give them efficient aircraft to fly. Why should we, year after year when the Navy Estimates come before the House, have to appeal, almost like the Cinderella of the Services, for better aircraft for naval purposes. I have come to the conclusion that it is not so much a question of production capacity as of Ministerial capacity. I understand I should be out of Order if I developed that matter any further. The right hon. Gentleman has his representatives on the Council of the Ministry of Aircraft Production. Is he satisfied that there is sufficient drive, sufficient control and sufficient contacts with regard to these problems? I hope he will give his attention to this matter. When the Prime Minister returned from

    1231
    his famous visit to Moscow, he said that Russia is a great land animal and we are a great sea animal. That sort of thing may be O.K. for Kipling, but it is not going to be satisfactory for the great responsibilities of the British Commonwealth of Nations, not only in the war but in the future of sea power as well. We are a sea and air animal to-day, or we are nothing at all.
    I asked the Prime Minister yesterday whether it was his intention to set up an Allied Anti-U-boat General Staff on the lines suggested by Field-Marshal Smuts. The Prime Minister said it was not his intention to do this. What Field-Marshal Smuts was advocating was not a General Staff in this country, with the Prime Minister or the Minister of Aircraft Production as Chairman, but an Allied General Staff for combating the menace of U-boat warfare. The Prime Minister gave that a direct negative, but, in reading the newspapers this morning, I see there seems to have been a discussion with the object of some co-operation between the British, Canadian and American naval and air forces. I hope the First Lord will tell us that he recognises that this is the only way we can lose the war and that we are going to play our full share if the Americans are prepared, with members of the British Commonwealth, to come in and form an Allied General Staff for concerted measures. The right hon. Gentleman was attacked in a Sunday paper by Mr. H. G. Wells, who asked for the First Lord's scalp. He thinks he ought to go. As far as I am concerned if the First Lord is finding difficulties in the War Cabinet and cannot get his supplies of up-to-date aircraft, he ought to come to the House of Commons, and we will back him up and see that he gets them.
    The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. A. V. Alexander): I had not intended to intervene at this stage in the Debate, having already spoken twice at some length, but, while some of the points that, have been put can be covered better and in detail by the Financial Secretary, who has had notice of some of them, I think it is necessary for me to say a few things in regard to specific questions which have been put to me and also perhaps to say a few words about the comments of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. Clement Davies), an
    1232
    extraordinary attack of a somewhat personal kind not reminiscent of his old friendship with me. The statement in the Press to-day that a conference had been taking place with regard to the co-ordination of the U-boat campaign refers to one of a series of conferences. It is not new. We have always been anxious and have been in consultation with our Allies in that respect. The statement is designed to make the position plain. The conference will be followed by further conferences. I have nothing to add therefore to the statement of the Prime Minister with regard to the setting-up of an Anti-U-Boat Warfare Committee. I also tried to make it plain that the general responsibility for the anti-U-boat campaign rests with the Admiralty in its actual daily operations. The Anti-U-Boat Warfare Committee, which is so comprehensive as to cover all the Departments which are concerned, of course meets regularly under the Prime Minister and gives constant attention to the policy and direction.
    Mr. Ammon: Do we understand then that the conference at Washington is entirely distinct from the other Committees that you have here considering U-boat warfare, and that it is not new?
    Mr. Alexander: No, it is one of a series of conferences which take place between the staffs of the respective navies and other Forces and will in no way impinge upon or take away from the work of the Anti-U-Boat Committee.
    Mr. Granville: Does that mean that machinery is being set up for the purpose of closer co-operation in measures to be taken to deal with U-boat warfare?
    Mr. Alexander: Yes, the whole idea is to get the greatest possible co-ordination and to pool all possible ideas that can be gathered to help us to improve the campaign against the U-boat. I hope that is now quite clear.
    The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery seemed to be very concerned because he thought I was developing vanity, complacency, resentment of criticism, and I suppose over-confidence. I must say that I am not able to attend the House as often as I should like because of the pressure of departmental work, but I read the Debates whenever. I cannot come, and I come as often as I can. As for vanity, I should

    1233
    think there are Members who are constant critics every day and every week on all subjects under the sun who can give me a long start. They may not have any complacency of the kind with which the hon. and learned Gentleman charges me, but no one can say, arising out of the report I made on the year's naval work, that there was anything complacent in it. The situation is much too serious, and it is increasing every day and every hour. When the hon. and learned Gentleman talked about our going out to functions and speaking—for instance, to the Institute of Marine Engineers and functions of that kind or, maybe, to special appeals which they ask the Government to come and support—I wonder if he realises that we have to take it out of ourselves afterwards by working late into the night. I am not prepared to accept a general charge from the hon. and learned Gentleman that this office is not fully seized of the urgency of this great job. We are putting in vastly more hours of work than our critics who talk about these things. I hope when the hon. and learned Gentleman reflects a little on what he has said he will think that perhaps it would have been wiser not to indulge in some of the things that he said. I always accept advice from my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker), an old Member of the House who is highly respected, and if his advocacy can help to get me out of some of these things. I shall be very glad of his support, but there is very heavy pressure from other Members to do just the opposite. Moreover, I am often asked to enlarge the publicity for the Navy, to spread abroad their wonderful work and to impress their needs upon the world.
    Mr. Tinker: It is a difficult matter, but it does not go well with the public when they see big functions being held in times of rationing. I only give it as a warning. I know how difficult it is.
    Mr. Mathers: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the so-called banquet on occasions of this kind is simply an excuse for the speech and that it is not a case of guzzling?
    Mr. Alexander: I do not initiate these things, and if they could be reduced, no one would be more pleased than I. If the hon. and learned Gentleman reads his own speech, I think he will have to agree that it proves conclusively that the Navy,
    1234
    left alone on the seas as it was from May, 1940, must not only have been very gallant but must have been very well administered and led to have saved the country from defeat. That is my case. Instead of bringing blame and criticism against those who have been in control, the hon. and learned Gentleman should be thanking them very sincerely. He referred to the fact that the First Sea Lord has occupied his position during the whole period of the war. I think we can look back upon it and say, "Thank God for the First Sea Lord." He has pulled us through a naval situation without precedent in the country's history, and I am truly grateful to him for what he has done for me, and far more grateful for what his services have been to the country in carrying us through without risk of defeat.
    The general situation to-day is one of continued anxiety. Do not let my hon. and learned Friend believe for a moment that those who are responsible for this sea battle do not know that and are not working night and day. There is not a single thing we can do that we would not try in order to meet the situation. My hon. Friend the Member for Eye (Mr. Granville) referred to attacks upon me in a newspaper last Sunday by Mr. H. G. Wells with regard to the introduction of the helicopter or auto-giro. I wrote Mr. Wells a secret letter in January, 1941, in reply to a letter from him, and he wrote back and said that he had burned my answer. He quoted only one part of that letter in his article last Sunday, probably from memory. The real situation is that, with regard to the helicopter, if it had not been for the action taken and supported by the staff of the Admiralty, we would not be in the position in which we are to-day of coming close to the delivery and equipment of ships with helicopters, which, of course, have yet ultimately to be proved completely to fulfil all that is claimed of them. We will leave no real hopeful thing untried in this great struggle against the U-boats and other forms of modern warfare attack.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Leigh raised—and I am glad he did—the question which was raised by the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) last week. We have looked into it, and I have prepared a statement about it. My hon. Friend had the courtesy to tell me he was going to raise it. I will say, if my

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    hon. Friend will allow me, the exact words I have prepared, so that I can be quite certain about it. Last Wednesday the hon. Member for Seaham alleged that three ships had been lost as a result of instructions to proceed at less than full speed in order to save fuel. As the Financial Secretary stated, ships are never ordered to sacrifice speed solely to save fuel. I desire to repeat that assurance in the most categorical manner possible. Of course, it must be recognised that naval authorities in route-ing ships often have to make a choice between two or more risks. A ship may have to be diverted on to a longer course in order to avoid a known danger, and this may mean that in order to retain sufficient fuel to have endurance to complete the voyage, the ship may have to reduce speed for a part of the time. This was what happened in the case which my hon. Friend described last Wednesday. The local route-ing authority was faced with the choice of directing the ship to an intermediate port to refuel, which would have meant that she would, have had to cross a known concentration of U-boats twice, going in and coming out, or of sending her direct to her destination on a wide sweep, which meant that for reasons of endurance the ship would have had to drop below her full speed for part of the voyage. The officer concerned chose the second alternative. Officers in those very serious responsible outposts often have to take the most difficult decisions of that kind. They are inevitable, and occasionally it is inevitable that decisions taken after the most deliberate judgment will be frustrated, but we do not hear of the numerous occasions upon which directions of that kind have been carried out and the ship saved.
    I have replied to-day to a specific question about one ship which I think the hon. Member for Seaham may have had in mind, though I have made it clear that the circumstances are different from those which he suggested. I have been unable to discover any record of two similar instances to account for the number of three which was mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. It is possible that in similar circumstances similar instructions may have been given to other vessels, but if the hon. Gentleman cares to give me the names of the ships that he had in mind I shall be only too glad to make further
    1236
    inquiries. I would repeat that in no circumstances would vessels be instructed to reduce their speed in order to save fuel for the sake of saving fuel.
    I listened with great interest to two other speeches which I will leave to my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary. My hon. Friend the Member for East Fulham (Mr. Astor) brought points to my notice which I shall be glad to see carefully studied, not merely by the political representatives of the Admiralty but by those in charge of the personnel administration. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will give him some information with regard to the details. As regards the case made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lewes (Rear-Admiral Beamish) about publicity, I took careful note of what was said before, and I will see that every possible step is taken to have the proper staff and money provided as far as we are able to secure what he needs. I feel confident that the appointment of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Portsmouth (Sir W. James) will be a very useful factor in that direction. As regards coastguards, they are not borne on this Vote, but I am having careful note taken of what my hon. and gallant Friend said.
    Rear-Admiral Beamish: The point I wanted to stress is that, although these men are not paid by the Admiralty, they are borne on ships' books and are subject to the fierce workings of the Naval Discipline Act and suffer from a certain number of shortcomings which seem very unfair.
    Mr. Alexander: I have taken note to look into it again. Coastguards are not a charge on the Vote, and the question may have to be taken up with the Minister of Pensions.
    The Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. George Hall): There are a few matters of detail which have been put by my hon. Friend the Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon) and my hon. Friend the Member for East Fulham (Mr. Astor). My hon. Friend the Member for North Camberwell asked whether any information could be given about the Security Officer at the Admiralty. I am not sure whether my hon. Friend has already received a letter from me asking him what he really means. There is a letter in the post for him.
    Mr. Ammon: I gave my right hon. Friend all the information I had, namely, that I saw a reference to it in another place and that the answer did not seem to make it any clearer.
    Mr. Hall: I am afraid I cannot make it any clearer, but when my hon. Friend sees the letter, which he should have had by now, he will see the difficulty not only of myself but of those who are at the Admiralty. My hon. Friend raised another question of great interest and importance with regard to the entries into Dartmouth under the scholarship scheme. This was started in 1941, and there have been five entrance examinations. At each of them the full number of scholars were entered, namely, 10 from grant-aided secondary schools and 10 from other schools. In addition, two sons of ratings have been awarded scholarships, making a total of 102 scholars entered since the scheme started. Many of the scholars are sons of parents in moderate or poor circumstances. They receive liberal financial assistance and in several cases all fees and charges have been remitted or purely nominal fees have been charged. The scheme is working satisfactorily from the point of view of both the college itself and the material which has been secured as a result of examinations. It can be voted as a really good scheme.
    My hon. Friend the Member for East Fulham made an interesting and helpful speech concerning the various branches and grades of officers who are serving in the Royal Navy. He referred to the R.N's, the R.N.R's and the R.N.V.R's. I was pleased that he paid such a glowing tribute to the work of these officers. He referred to the relationship as being excellent and said that many of the officers in the R.N.R. and R.N.V.R.—and he speaks with some authority as he has worked with them—were capable of further advancement. The gap in naval experience between the regular and reserve officers is steadily growing less and the policy of appointing reserve officers to specialist courses hitherto reserved for R.N. officers has proved very successful. As a result of their experience, R.N.R. and to a lesser degree R.N.V.R. officers have been appointed to sea-going commands and other appointments which were hitherto filled with R.N. officers only. My hon. Friend referred to the fact that R.N.R. officers man or command
    1238
    corvettes and that R.N.V.R. officers command the smaller craft. That is true, and it can be said that four-fifths of the corvettes are manned by R.N.R. officers, whereas R.N.V.R. officers command almost all the minor ships. In addition, a substantial number of R.N.R. officers are employed as commodores of coastal convoys and a number are also employed as commanders or commodores of ocean-going convoys. My hon. Friend can see that there is this steady march forward of officers in both the branches.
    With regard to the specific points which he put, as my right hon. Friend the First Lord has said, they will receive the sympathetic consideration of the Admiralty. One point was that there should be some mark of distinction as between officers who serve in the R.N.V.R. and the R.N.R., that is, between what may be regarded as permanent officers and temporary officers. While we are aware that the permanent service R.N.R. and R.N.V.R. officers are anxious that they should be distinct in some way from the temporary officers there are difficulties which it is not altogether easy to explain, but this matter is receiving consideration. The other point he put was that there should be more Staff College and other courses for the R.N.V.R. The majority of the places in specialist courses for naval officers are filled by officers of the Reserves. The staff course has been in abeyance since the beginning of the war, but its reinstitution in a modified war-time form is under consideration both for R.N. and Reserve officers. Further, in accordance with the traditional policy of the Navy that instruction should as far as possible be given at sea large numbers of R.N.V.R. officers are appointed to ships for instruction.
    A further point which the hon. Member put was that there should be some system to discover in peace-time who are good and who are bad officers amongst the Reserve of Officers. Before the war the Admiralty were able to pass about 1,000 retired officers through courses of instruction which enabled them to judge in some degree the capacity of those officers. It might be possible to reintroduce this system in a wider form after the war, so that all retired officers should at intervals go through some courses of this sort. The difficulty is that this would only provide a very rough means of

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    judging an officer's suitability for positions of responsibility. I am not sure that any satisfactory method can be found, but the matter and the points which the hon. Member put in his speech will, as my right hon. Friend said, receive the attention of the Admiralty. I do not think any other points were raised which have not been answered by the First Lord or myself, and I should like to conclude by expressing our thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks) for his interesting contribution and the explanation which he gave.
    Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
    Second and Third Resolutions agreed to.
    REPORT [25 th February]
    Resolutions reported:

    ARMY ESTIMATES, 1943
      NUMBER OF LAND FORCES
      1. "That such number of Land Forces of all ranks, as His Majesty may deem necessary, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom at Home and Abroad, exclusive of India and Burma, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1944."
      PAY, ETC., OF THE ARMY
      2. "That a sum, not exceeding £100, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the Pay, etc., of the Army, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1944."

      ARMY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1942
      3. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1943, for expenditure beyond the sum already provided in the grants for Army Services for the year."

      Schedule.

      Sums not exceeding

      Supply Grants.

      Appropriations in Aid.

      Vote.

      £

      £

      1. Pay, &c., of the Army.

      10

      90,000,000

      First Resolution read a Second Time. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
      Mr. Lawson: There are two points which I wish to raise on this Vote. The first concerns airgraphs sent by soldiers who are with the Armies in the Middle East. I understand that the men pay a little more in order to send airgraphs in the expectation that they will get here in a day or two. In fact, some of them do not even arrive in a week or two. In one case to which my attention was drawn an airgraph had been some three months on the way. I had some complaint about this matter when I was out there recently and have myself had a striking example of the delay, because I sent one from Egypt about November, and it arrived only last week. The soldiers say that there may be some reason for this delay and that if there is a reason for it they do not mind, but what they object to is to find that a service which is supposed to provide a quick means of communication between a soldier and his relatives does not work out so well in practice although they have paid the extra charge. I do not know the reason for the delay. It has been put to me that it may be due to the movements of the Forces in North Africa, but it is also not uncommon in Iraq and in Egypt, where the Forces are largely static.
      A striking thing is that I have not had any complaints from soldiers in India. The service may operate there. I was talking to someone in the precincts of the House only yesterday who had received some 10 airgraphs from India in the last three months, and there did not seem to have been any difficulties in his case. I do not know whether the Army authorities are responsible for the administration on this side, or whether the postal authorities of the respective countries are responsible, or whether it is just a matter of censorship, but I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that the delays are causing great misgivings among soldiers and I should be much obliged if he could furnish us with some explanation of what is happening. Further, if an airgraph is not delivered within a certain number of days would it not be possible to return the amount which the man has paid? A soldier receives small pay comparatively, and it is really a great hardship that a man should pay extra postage for quick transit and then not get the service.
      The next point I want to put concerns leave from the Forces generally in the

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      Middle East as well as the Fighting Forces in North Africa. It is well known that a great many of these soldiers had served long periods in India before the war broke out. It is not an uncommon thing to have a parent or a wife telling you that the soldier has been away from home for five or six years and has never had any leave. In peace-time they took their leave in India. Many of them have served in various parts of the Far East, being men who were ready trained and experienced, and they have had quite a lot of fighting. They complain and their relatives complain that there does not seem to be any system about the granting of leave. I do not know what truth there is in it, but they say sometimes that soldiers who have not been away from home anything like as long as they have have been granted leave. Everybody understands the difficulties of giving men leave at the present time. It means a long voyage, very often round by the Cape. It is not as though the Mediterranean was clear, so as to give a more direct route. There would be difficulties about the matter then, with so many men with specialist experience in our Armies in North Africa and in the Middle East. But if the right hon. Gentleman could tell us that there is some system designed to give men leave in proportion to the time they have been serving I think it would give some satisfaction; at any rate we should have an understanding of the position. We should like to know just what are the difficulties. Some of us have an idea that we know what they are, but if the right hon. Gentleman could state publicly what the difficulties are it would give a little satisfaction to those concerned.
      Mr. Bellenger: I want to add only a few words to what my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson) has said. In regard to the latter part of his speech, there is a class of men serving overseas to whom some consideration ought to be given. A number of men have been drafted overseas without embarkation leave who had engagements to members of the opposite sex and who, in the ordinary course of events, would have married them. The Minister knows the situation quite well. I expect the War Office and he receive as many letters as I and other hon. Members do from the girls themselves as well as from
      1242
      their mothers. All these people are seriously concerned at the impossibility of their daughters marrying the soldiers, who are quite willing to marry, and who, because of certain future events, ought to marry.
      It has been suggested that an arrangement might be made for marriage by proxy. I believe there is some sort of system arranged in the German army to that end. This is a serious matter and not one for merriment. The parents especially are concerned that some provision should be made to enable the young people to marry, as people at home have the opportunity of doing, and so avoiding the unpleasant stigma in the future. We do not know how long these troops will be away abroad. It may be a long time. I do suggest that my hon. and learned Friend should try to make some arrangement. Fortunately the people concerned are only a small minority, but it would be well worth while the War Office finding some solution.
      The other question is as to the mails. My hon. and learned Friend knows too well from his experience in the last war that the regular delivery of mails is just is important to the morale of the troops is the regular delivery of rations. Great efforts are made to see that rations come up to time, even in battle. It is true that the rations are not addressed to individual soldiers, but equal efforts should be made to see that the men get letters more regularly than they now do. I know the difficulties when troops are on the move, but there are many static troops, particularly in the Middle East, who are not getting their mails. I am aware from the correspondence I receive that it is causing depression of spirits, in men who can see no possibility of getting home, and want to hear from their families. It would be worth while for the War Office to try to speed up the mails. The Army Council are doing their best to see that the morale of the troops is high. The B.B.C. have special weeks to improve the morale of all concerned. This is a method whereby a great effect could be created in the Army. I am glad to be able to support my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street. Whoever is at fault, whether it is the Post Office or, as I am inclined to think, the Army Post Office at the other end, I hope that efforts will be made to speed up the mails.
      Sir Frank Sanderson: A very good case can be made out for marriage by proxy during war-time. I have in mind the unmarried mothers, and I regard the matter with a considerable amount of seriousness. Take the case where a man has gone abroad. Had he remained, he probably would have married the woman who is to have a child. It is because of the unmarried mother and the unborn child that I am wholly in favour of marriage by proxy during war-time. I hope that my hon. and learned Friend will consider whether he is able to reply to-day to the effect that he will give this matter the serious consideration which it merits.
      The other matter is the prolonged delay in the postal service from India and the Middle East. Only yesterday I received from India a letter which took a considerable time, no less than three times the normal period taken in peace time. That is very serious. I ask my hon. and learned Friend to consider whether anything can be done to expedite the delivery of letters to and from troops in the Middle East.
      Mr. Muff: I intervene to emphasise the importance of keeping up morale by means of the delivery of letters. In India there have been grave reasons for complaint.
      Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Charles Williams): I do not think we can pursue the subject any further because it is very far from coming under the Vote we are discussing.
      Mr. Muff: Then I will turn my attention to another matter which concerns the welfare of the troops.
      Mr. Lawson: On a point of Order. I would draw attention to the fact that we have been discussing this matter of airgraphs since we began the discussion on the Estimates. These Estimates are not what they used to be, because they are not so detailed. They are more general. We had a Ruling from Mr. Speaker on one occasion—I think it was on the last occasion, although I am not sure—that, in view of the scantiness of the Estimates now, Debates could be rather more general upon the Report stage than they used to be when we got more detailed Estimates.
      Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Yes, that is quite so, so far as a general discussion on Army matters is concerned, but when we get on
      1244
      to the question of the mails we are on matters which concern another Department, and away from the Army. The matter can be discussed so far as the Army is concerned, but not when the matter concerns another Department.
      Mr. Lawson: I would put a further point. As a rule, this discussion would be ruled out, but I have made some inquiries about the matter. I gather that the Army have some responsibility for the administration of this matter, and, if that is so, perhaps you would rule that it is within the bounds of Order.
      The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Arthur Henderson): It is only right that I should say here that the Army has a responsibility for the mails that are despatched to the troops abroad, but has no responsibility necessarily for the transportation of the mails. For mails that go by air the responsibility is that of the Air Ministry and for those that go by sea, of the Ministry of War Transport. On the other hand, we take over the mails, for example in London, from the General Post Office, and thereafter they become our responsibility until they are delivered.
      Mr. Lawson: My hon. and learned Friend seems to have placed you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, rather in the position of having to give a Solomon's judgment. Will you not give the benefit of the doubt to my hon. Friend and allow him to deal with this matter?
      Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I have already given the benefit of the doubt by allowing one short speech on the subject. My point is that, as there is great doubt as to which Department is responsible, I do not think we ought to have speeches of any considerable length on this occasion, or a general Debate upon this particular detail.
      Mr. Muff: I shall not transgress. There has been intolerable delay. I used the word "intolerable." Now it is a matter of great satisfaction that Sir Archibald Wavell has taken the matter under his own care regarding India, thereby making mails definitely an Army matter, not leaving them to the Postmaster-General, who does not like to meet Members of Parliament. Sir Archibald Wavell has recognised the gravity of the delay in Durban, Bombay and other places, and I hope that the Financial Secretary will carry on the

      1245
      good work. This is one side of welfare. Some of us who have been working in welfare, as I have been for three years in the Northern Command, are very sorry at the untimely death, a tragedy, of General Sir H. Willans. So rich is the welfare department, however, in its personnel, that we hope that a proper appointment will be made.
      There is the other matter of Army Council Instruction 84. I always call it the "Love, marriage and divorce" Army Council Instruction. It gets us welfare officers to try to reconcile erring wives and to look over the faults of faithless husbands. We do this if the troops are abroad. Then the circumlocution department is set in motion, and what is called the Navy, Army and Airmen's Families Association. One has to go to a dear young lady in Victoria Street. She generally does not know her geography very well. A letter comes, and instead of going from the paymaster to the welfare officer, it goes to this intermediate department, and there is a delay of seven to 10 days. Some of us get letters which ought to go to somebody else, because of this intermediate department run by a very efficient young woman in Victoria Street. Is there any reason why the War Office should not let the welfare department deal with it direct? We have to deal with the paymasters of the regiments in question ultimately, and say whether we have been successful in getting the hearts of husbands and wives to beat once more in general synchrony. We have had remarkable successes, but I do not want to emphasise that angle of it too much.
      I would only say that welfare officers, instead of going round to units to see that all is correct, such as the food, or that the men have wireless sets, are now doing work which is completely changed, owing to the legal mind of my hon. and learned Friend the Financial Secretary to the War Office. He has evolved this Army Council Instruction 834. We forgive him for that. At any rate, the War Office in these days goes in for a more direct method, and the old red-tape circumlocution office is cut out. I am more than a little hopeful that my hon. and learned Friend will ask why this lady in Victoria Street is doing such a great amount of work. She is overburdened with work. Why should she have to go to the trouble of reposting letters and putting on the wrong addresses, leaving it to us welfare
      1246
      officers, possessed as we are of great initiative, to decipher them and see to what part of Yorkshire we have to go in order to bring about that great reconciliation which we so ardently desire?
      I could touch upon another matter, which I am rather afraid might be out of Order. I wish my hon. Friend would tell the House some of the work of the Young Soldiers' Council which some of us started on 17th September, 1942. We went to the anniversary service, and it was a joyous occasion. It covers 85 per cent. of young soldiers under the age of 21, whose chief sin in life is irresponsibility. That is about all that is wrong with them. My hon. and learned Friend can remember from his own not too far distant past when he had a great attack of irresponsibility and like myself and many others took the wrong turning when we should have taken the right one. Detention barracks is a euphomistic term for "clink," which has another alias, because a detention barracks used to be in my own constituency and they were the old prison, reconstituted and rededicated to the Army. Happily, it was bombed almost to bits, and now my hon. and learned Friend and the Army Council have provided a very nice detention barracks for the grown-ups. But it was wrong to send these boys for three or four months into such detention barracks, though I must say that the detention barracks I went to see were almost like going to an OCTU—the lectures and so forth—but that, by the way. These young soldiers' camps are places where the whole purpose is to give a moral background to these lads of under 21. Now, Sir, if in your more leisurely periods you would, not as a task, but as a joy, read the report from some of those camps you would see that 85 per cent. of those lads have made good. I want to congratulate the War Office on breaking away from tradition and allowing these camps to be formed. I could tell you a story of one boy—but I am not allowed to tell stories.
      Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member's illustrations have gone rather far, and he began by promising to be very brief.
      Mr. Muff: I am concluding—this was almost my last sentence—by saying that I hope nothing will be allowed to deter the War Office from continuing, not the backward look which was supposed to be

      1247
      the background of the War Office in the bad old days but, under the regime under which it is prospering at the present time, a forward look, and that it will not allow these progressive developments to be discontinued.
      Brigadier-General Clifton Brown: May I ask one question, that of damage to the farm crops from military manœuvres? I mean damage that can be prevented. In the old days, of course, when a cavalry regiment swept over a field using a gap in the fence you could go through and reform on the other side. These tanks take a fence or wall three abreast and often do unnecessary damage, though gates have been left open for them. I think that if the Secretary of State for War would allow us to put notices on our farms it would stop a good deal of unnecessary back chat and damage and soldiers going in and wanting water perhaps and talking to the dairy girls, as happened in my own case. If the Secretary of State would allow these notices to be put up round really important places—and after all, food production is really important nowadays, second only to the Army—I think that would stop a lot of unnecessary damage. I ask him to look into that question. It is not the fault of the troops; they do not know what damage can be done on the farms. It is not their fault but their misfortune. If anything can be done to stop unnecessary damage, by means of more notices on the farms issued through the war agricultural committees, I hope the Secretary of State will remember that.
      Mr. Arthur Henderson: I assure my hon. and gallant Friend that the War Office is always endeavouring to ensure that a minimum of damage is done by the troops when they are carrying out their exercises. The concrete suggestion he has made will be considered.
      Brigadier-General Clifton Brown: Thank you.
      Mr. Henderson: The hon. Member for East Hull (Mr. Muff) will not expect me to follow him in his reference to the young soldiers' battalions. If he had been in his place two weeks ago when the Motion "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair" was discussed, he would have heard me deal at great length with the work of the young soldiers' battalions.
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      Perhaps I might content myself by saying that I entirely agree with him as to the excellent work being done and the complete justification of the experiment which these young soldiers' battalions represent.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson), with other hon. Members, has raised the very important question of mails for troops overseas. I can assure them that we have been very much concerned with this particular problem, and I am not going for one moment to attempt to suggest to the House that we are entirely satisfied with the time that is taken to deliver the various types of mail to the various parts of the world in which our troops are at present serving. Perhaps I might be allowed to give to the House some picture of the problem that we have to deal with in relation to postal services for overseas Forces. Surface mails to the Middle East, East Africa, Persia, Iraq, and India are of necessity conveyed by the long sea route via the Cape, and I must admit at once that transit times are usually protracted and arrivals irregular. This is, of course, explained by the fact that dispatches depend upon sailings, which under present circumstances are irregular.
      As an alternative to the surface mail, some time ago a special light air letter was introduced which is taken at a charge of 6d. Normally, as one would expect from the name used—light air letter—these letters are conveyed throughout by air, but unfortunately on occasions it has been found necessary to send consignments by sea for part of the journey when aircraft accommodation has been required for other priority traffic. I am glad to say, however, that the situation has recently improved, as the Air Ministry have provided additional planes, and now air letter services have been established not only for the countries to which I have just referred, but on an experimental basis to and from North Africa. As a result it has been found possible to accelerate air letters to the Eighth Army which hitherto circulated via the Middle East.
      In addition, an air letter service to West Africa, where the troops are even more desirous of receiving communications from home, from the very nature of their environment, was also introduced recently. It is also hoped that as a result of the setting-up by the Secretary of State for

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      Air of the Air Transport Command of the R.A.F. we may be able to secure a further considerable improvement generally in air-mail services to the Forces overseas. My hon. Friend introduced his speech with a reference to airgraphs. As regards the particular case to which he referred, if he will be good enough to let me have the particulars—the time it was posted and other details—I will certainly be glad to look into that special case.
      Mr. Lawson: How long is it since the new system was established? How long has it been in operation?
      Mr. Henderson: I think in the last two or three weeks.
      Sir Granville Gibson: Cannot one send airgraphs for 3d. per letter?
      Mr. Henderson: Yes, that is so.
      Sir G. Gibson: That is much better, if they go all the way by air, than sending a letter?
      Mr. Henderson: The air letter is 6d.; the airgraph is 3d.
      Sir G. Gibson: Does an airgraph take longer than an air letter?
      Mr. Henderson: Obviously the intention is that the airgraph letter should go more quickly, but the difficulty has been that the airgraphs to certain parts of the Middle East have had to go by the long route rather than by what is called the short route, and that very much increases the time. Each week 1,250,000 airgraph letters are sent from this country, and approximately the same number are received, and about 1,500,000 air letters are dispatched each week and about the same number received.
      Mr. Lawson: What proportion of the airgraphs come direct?
      Mr. Henderson: If my hon. Friend means the short route, the last return I received indicated that about 50 per cent. of that particular week's consignment of 1,250,000 airgraph letters travelled by the long route and 50 per cent. by the short route, but it depends upon a number of factors, including, so far as aircraft are concerned, weather conditions, and it may be desirable not to wait but to send them immediately by sea. As regards the small weight of airgraphs, the House will be interested
      1250
      to know that 4,500 airgraph letters weigh approximately 1 lb., which is the same as the weight of 180 air letters, so that the small weight of airgraph films does not present the same difficulties, and transmission by air can usually be guaranteed, but transmission by air perhaps by the long route as well as the short route. The intervals, of course, between airgraph despatches vary considerably, and consequently the average time of transmission covers a wide range. As regards North Africa, it is hoped to start an airgraph service from there within a month. At the moment airgraphs from this country to North Africa are being printed in this country and are being delivered as letters until such time as there is equipment available in North Africa for the necessary processing which has to take place.
      The House might be interested to have some indication of the approximate transit times in the case of airgraphs, which to the Middle East is 5½ days by the short route and 10 to 12 days by the long route.
      Mr. Bellenger: That is to the base?
      Mr. Henderson: That is from the home postal centre to the base where the processing has to take place. Members know the system which is operated in relation to airgraphs. An airgraph to the Middle East takes 5½ days, to India 12 days, and to Persia and Iraq 5½ days; an air letter to the Middle East 16 days, to India 22 days, and to Persia and Iraq 17 days. For surface mails—the ordinary letter which goes the whole way by ship from this country to the Middle East, for example—the times are, to the Middle East 77½ days, and to India 75 days. The return transit times of mails from the various theatres of war are practically the same except in relation to surface mails, for which there is an increase of 10 or 12 days in respect of India and of Persia and Iraq. I can assure the House that the whole question of overseas mails, of postal services to overseas stations, receives the constant consideration of the War Office, and we are only too anxious to do everything possible to secure improvements. But we are faced with certain difficulties to which I have alluded, such as the question of convoys, the question of shipping, and the availability of aeroplanes, which depends to some extent on weather and other conditions. It is impossible to maintain a perfect system in every case, although I think that, taking it on an average, and

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      having regard to the vast volume of mail taken from and brought into this country, the position is relatively satisfactory.
      Mr. Lawson: We are very much obliged for the detailed and clear explanation my hon. and learned Friend has given, including his explanation of the difference between the long route and the short route; but is he sure that most of the delay does not occur between the unit and the base? Would he give his attention to that matter?
      Mr. Henderson: Some weeks ago I went very carefully into the problem from the point of view of the time it takes for mail to go from the base, say in Egypt, to the front line. I do not think I am giving away any information when I say that 100 per cent. of that mail for the Eighth Army has been taken up by air and that the average time has been 24 hours. There is a very frequent air service from the base to the front line, or the equivalent of the rail head, and I do not think there has been any difficulty about that. Hon. Members who have been taking part in campaigns know that things go wrong and that there may be operational difficulties to prevent any system functioning normally at all times.
      The second point to which my hon. Friend referred was the question of leave from the Middle East and from India. At the moment soldiers with six or more years' continuous service overseas may be considered for transfer to the home establishment. Release is considered on its merits, and the final decision rests with the Commander-in-Chief, Middle East Forces, in the case of those serving in that theatre. It depends, of course, on two very vital considerations, the military situation and the availability of shipping. With the best intentions in the world, it is a very difficult problem, and I think it would be wrong for me to convey the impression that there is much likelihood of any drastic reduction in the time limit, say from six years to two or three years at present. My hon. Friend suggested that there were cases in which some sort of preference was given. It is true that men are occasionally brought home on compassionate grounds where their physical presence is absolutely vital. That depends on the circumstances of each case. I think that where doctors took the view that in order to save the life of an individual
      1252
      a surgical operation was necessary and for family reasons a soldier had to be brought home, permission would be given.
      Mr. Driberg: In cases of six years' service or more are cases always considered individually or are units ever considered as units?
      Mr. Henderson: Each case would be considered individually, and not on the basis of a unit. If there were a unit in which 50, 100 or 150 men had more than six years' service abroad, all those men would be entitled to apply to be sent home; but, of course, permission is contingent on the military situation and on the availability of shipping, and I cannot think that the military situation up to date has been such that a Commander-in-Chief would be willing to send home a well-trained and efficient fighting unit. From time to time it has been necessary to bring home a few officers from the Middle East, to give the Army at home the benefit of their military experience and technical knowledge. For that reason we have brought home experienced tank officers who fought in Libya and in Tripolitania. They have been brought home to lecture at the various training establishments.
      Mr. Lawson: And some men to help in the works?
      Mr. Henderson: I see no reason why in principle any other rank, if he be well qualified to lecture in factories on his experiences as a fighting soldier, a tank driver or whatever he may be, should not be brought home. There is certainly no intention of making a dividing line between soldiers and officers.
      Mr. Lawson: Do they in fact do so?
      Mr. Henderson: We have brought home non-commissioned officers: I am not sure about private soldiers. The House will realise that, while it may be a poor substitute for leave to come home, facilities are given to our troops abroad to enjoy some amount of leave. The conditions are practically the same as in this country. Troops serving abroad are given up to 28 days a year of what is called local recuperative leave. They are given free travel to the nearest health resorts; and I am told that there are some excellent health resorts available to our troops in Persia, Iraq and the Middle East.
      Major Wise: Are they allowed to accumulate the 28 days?
      Mr. Henderson: I would not like to answer that without consideration. Troops in this country, as my hon. and gallant Friend knows, are not entitled to take a greater number of days than 14. But I will look into the point, and let him know.
      Mr. Bartle Bull: I spent two years in the Middle East, and this information about the 28 days is news to me. The troops there are entitled to five days' leave periodically; but those days are not allowed as a right, and if they miss them at the time they do not get them later.
      Mr. Bellenger: Whether it is true or not that the troops get this 28 days, will my hon. and learned Friend look into the opportunities, especially in the Cairo area, for men to have a real leave at a reduced cost? He will find that facilities for British troops are nowhere comparable to those given, for example, to the New Zealand Forces. I have that information from officers who have come home.
      Mr. Henderson: If my hon. Friend will give me his information, I will, of course, look into it. As regards the point of my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield (Mr. Bull), even in this country leave is always given as a privilege, and if for any reason an operational or tactical situation develops—and we have all experienced it—as a result of which leave is cancelled you are not allowed to store that leave up and take it as a credit later on. I have no doubt that when my hon. Friend missed his leave he was well up in the front line, probably at El Alamein, and that the situation was such as to prevent leave being given. In normal times 28 days is the entitlement each year. My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) will no doubt know that in the Middle East we have, in addition to providing facilities for going to the various health resorts, set up rest camps in various areas, where officers and men can have rest and change. I have no reason to believe that those rest camps are not serving a most useful purpose.
      On the question of marriage by proxy, I am sure my hon. Friends will not expect me to reply now. It involves other Departments besides the War Office. But
      1254
      I feel that my hon. Friends, on consideration, will realise that it is an extremely difficult problem, liable to lead to various repercussions and considerable controversy; and, while I sympathise with the individual problem to which my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw referred, I do not hold out any hope of legislation being introduced to remedy the situation. No doubt those who are responsible for dealing with the question of marriage will give consideration to the views that my hon. Friends have expressed.
      Sir F. Sanderson: Does my hon. and learned Friend consider that it would create any difficulty or controversy if the proposal were limited to the case of the unmarried mother?
      Mr. Henderson: I have been sufficiently long in this House to know that the proposal would lead to considerable controversy. I need make no comment as to whether it is good or bad. It would be a very big innovation in the marriage laws of this country.
      Mr. Brooks: What would happen in respect of compensation to the unmarried mother?
      Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
      Second and Third Resolutions agreed to.
      REPORT [11 th March]
      Resolutions reported:

    Air ESTIMATES, 1943
      NUMBER FOR AIR FORCE SERVICE
      1. "That such number of Officers and Airmen, as His Majesty may deem necessary, be borne for the Air Force Service of the United Kingdom at Home and Abroad, excluding those serving in India on the Indian Establishment, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1944."
      PAY, &C., OF THE AIR FORCE
      2. "That a sum, not exceeding ¢100, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the Pay, &c., of the Air Force, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1944."

      AIR SERVICES SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1942
      3. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st

      1255
      day of March, 1943, for expenditure beyond the sum already provided in the grants for Air Services for the year."

      Schedule

      Sums not exceeding

      Supply Grants.

      Appropriations in Aid.

      Vote.

      £

      £

      1. Pay, &c., of the Air Force.

      10

      60,000,000

      First Resolution read a Second time.
      Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
      Mr. Montague: When the Estimates were presented the Secretary of State made a very comprehensive and full statement, and it is unnecessary to burden the Debate with anything more beyond just one point, which I would like to present to the Under-Secretary. We have seen the Report of the appointment of Air Marshal Bowhill as head of the Transport Command. My recollection of Air Marshal Bowhill at the Air Ministry is of such a character that I am sure that the appointment is an admirable one. I think the Under-Secretary of State will welcome my invitation to him to expand, in the light of that appointment, what has been said about the Transport Command and its work in the future. Very little was said the other day upon matters of policy, and perhaps the Under-Secretary will be able to tell us a little more in detail than has as yet been vouchsafed to the House about what the Transport Command is going to accomplish in the way of the development of this subject.
      The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Air (Captain Harold Balfour): My hon. Friend the Member for West Islington (Mr. Montague) has asked me whether I can say anything about Air Marshal Bowhill's appointment and whether I can say anything further with regard to the functions of the Royal Air Force Transport Command. I am indeed glad that my hon. Friend welcomes Air Marshal Bowhill's appointment, because this appointment was given to an officer who, after due consideration, we consider the most qualified officer for this particular post. He is particularly suitable because he has
      1256
      pioneered the operational control of the North Atlantic Service. He has pioneered the technique that we must now develop of integrating the British Overseas Airways Corporation and the civil line services in aid of the war effort with the service which Transport Command will run. He has made himself very popular with the United States Air Transport Command, with whom he will have to work in close association. I am in full agreement with my hon. Friend when he says that his personal experience when he held the office that I now hold led him to feel that this appointment is suitable. It may interest the House to know that we have accomplished some 344 regular scheduled trips across the North Atlantic in all weathers on this North Atlantic Ferry Service operated by British Overseas Airways Corporation to the requirements of the Air Officer Commanding Ferry Command, who was Air Marshal Bowhill. It is an accomplishment which reflects great credit upon those who produce the aeroplanes and upon those who control the wireless and meteorological service and not least upon those who navigate and fly the aircraft. I cannot elaborate in any detail the functions of Transport Command, because my hon. Friend will find that that was done, beyond what was said by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air in his opening speech, in the winding-up speech I made in answer to the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain P. Macdonald), when I took each of the functions of the Transport Command and elaborated them. I will not repeat them here—I do not think it would be in Order to repeat them—but if there is any further information which my hon. Friend or any other hon. Member wants, I will do my best to furnish it on any specific point.
      Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.

    ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL)
    Bill to provide, during 12 months, for the discipline and regulation of the Army and the Air Force; ordered to be brought in by Sir James Grigg, Mr. A. V. Alexander, Sir Archibald Sinclair, Mr. Arthur Henderson and Captain Harold Balfour.

    ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL,
    "to provide, during 12 months, for the discipline and regulation of the Army and

    1257
    the Air Force;" presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed. [Bill 19].
    REPORT [11 th March]
    Second and Third Resolutions agreed to.
    REPORT [2nd March]
    Resolutions reported:

    CIVIL ESTIMATES, SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1942
      CLASS II
        DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR SERVICES
        1. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £93,800, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1943, for the expenses in connection with His Majesty's Embassies, Missions and Consular Establishments Abroad, and other expenditure chargeable to the Consular Vote; certain special grants and payments, including grants in aid; and sundry other services."
      CLASS V
        OLD AGE PENSIONS
        2. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £600,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1943, for Old Age Pensions, pensions to blind persons, and for certain administrative expenses in connection therewith.
      CLASS I

        MINISTRY OF TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING
        3. "That a sum, not exceeding £18,086, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1943, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Town and Country Planning."
        Resolutions agreed to.

  WAYS AND MEANS
  [REPORT, 11 th March]
  Resolutions reported:
  1. "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1943, the sum of £12,001,057 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  2. "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1944, the sum of £208,773,300 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  Resolutions agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolutions by the Chairman of Ways
  1258
  and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Assheton.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (NO. 2) BILL,
  "to apply certain sums out of the Consolidated Fund to the Service of the years ending on the 31st day of March, one thousand nine hundred and forty-three and one thousand nine hundred and forty-four"; presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed. [Bill 20.]

  BRITISH NATIONALITY AND STATUS OF ALIENS BILL [Lords].
  Order for Second Reading read.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake): I beg to move, "That this Bill be now read a Second time."
  This Bill deals with a number of matters, none of which is contentious in character, and on some of which it was intended to legislate before the war if Parliamentary time had been available. Circumstances arising out of the war have, however, made more urgent the changes that were then in contemplation and certain other matters have arisen directly out of the war. The conception of British nationality is based partly on common law and partly on Statute. The common code of law on this subject is one of the most important links which bind together the British Commonwealth of Nations, and in regard to any change in our nationality laws we attach, and shall continue to attach, the greatest importance to securing the assent of the self-governing Dominions; and, as hon Members know, this is a subject which is almost invariably placed on the agenda when an Imperial conference takes place. In so far as changes in our domestic law proposed by this Bill have not already been agreed by past Imperial Conferences consultation with the Dominions has taken place through the usual channels and their agreement has been secured.
  Clause 1 of the Bill deals with the nationality of persons who are born abroad of British parents. Under the common law the only test of British nationality was whether or not the person concerned had been born within the King's allegiance. From the year 1730 onwards, however, our Statute law has

  1259
  made provision for the recognition as British subjects of persons born of British parents outside His Majesty's Dominions. Before the year 1914 these provisions extended to the second generation born abroad; by the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act, 1914, however, the transmission of British nationality was limited to the first generation born outside His Majesty's Dominions. The effect of this limitation was to exclude from British nationality many persons born and brought up abroad in British homes and communities who felt themselves to be, in all essentials, British and were animated by strong sentiments of loyalty to the Crown. To treat such persons as aliens was obviously to make the law inconsistent with the facts, and accordingly in 1922 the law was amended so as to enable British nationality to be transmitted from parents to children, subject to two conditions. The first condition was that the birth must be registered at a consulate within one year, or at the most within two years, of its occurrence and the second was that a person whose birth was so registered should make a formal declaration of his desire to retain British nationality within one year of attaining the age of 21.
  Experience, however, has shown that these rigid requirements as to the time within which registrations of birth and declarations of British nationality had to be made caused serious difficulty to many persons residing abroad and resulted in the exclusion from British nationality of many individuals who in origin, upbringing and sentiment are completely British. Some time ago agreement was reached with the Dominions that these limiting provisions ought to be amended and the importance of amending them without delay has now been emphasised by the fact that a number of young men of British origin who have come to the United Kingdom for the purpose of assisting us in the war are found to be aliens in law, although their essentially British character and loyalty to the Crown has been demonstrated by their eagerness to join His Majesty's Forces or render help in some other way to the war effort.
  Clause 1 while re-enacting the general principle embodied in the Act of 1922, namely, the principle that British families while remaining abroad can retain
  1260
  their British nationality from generation to generation by the continuous process of registering birth and declarations of their British nationality, gives the necessary elasticity to the limiting conditions by providing that while the normal period within which a birth must be registered is to be one year this period may be extended by the permission of the Secretary of State and that persons so registered by the permission of the Secretary of State shall be deemed to be, and always to have been, British subjects by birth. Clause 1 must be read in conjunction with Clause 6. This Clause re-enacts the existing law as to a declaration of British nationality at the time when the person born abroad attains his majority, but provides that the period within which he must make this declaration may be extended by the permission of a Secretary of State. The Clause also provides that as regards persons who have joined His Majesty's Forces or become engaged in work of national importance during the present war the necessity for such a declaration is dispensed with.
  Clause 2 corrects a drafting error in the existing law, namely, the first proviso of sub-section (1) of the Act of 1914. The main object of that proviso was to give statutory authority to the long recognised practice that a child born of a British father in a country where His Majesty exercises jurisdiction over British subjects is as much a British subject as if he had been born on British soil. The Government has been advised that the proviso did not, for technical reasons, carry out the object originally intended.
  Clause 3 is incorporated in order to clear up the position in regard to posthumous children. In many places in the Nationality Acts, and indeed in the two preceding Clauses of this Bill, the words are to be found:
  "…whose father was at the time of the birth a British subject…"
  But the person who is deceased does not possess British or indeed any other nationality. The status of posthumous children has therefore been a matter for doubt. To remove this doubt, Clause 3 provides that they shall be in the same position as children whose fathers have survived their birth.
  Clause 4 deals with a matter of some importance, although the number of persons affected is comparatively small. At the

  1261
  time of the collapse of France in 1940, the Prime Minister, with the universal assent and unanimous approval of the House of Commons and of the country, made a specific offer of the grant of British nationality to members of the French Navy who threw in their lot with us and were prepared to continue in the fight against Nazi Germany. These men joined His Majesty's Forces, and in fulfilment of the pledge it is proposed to entertain applications for naturalisation from them, although they do not fulfil the ordinary statutory condition that an applicant must have resided in His Majesty's Dominions or been in the Service of the Crown for at least five years. Clause 4, therefore, enables the statutory period of residence to be dispensed with in the case of French nationals who are, or have at any time during the war been, members of His Majesty's Forces. The large number of Frenchmen who are fighting or serving in French units are not affected by this provision, which is limited to those Frenchmen who have elected to serve with the British Forces.
  Clause 5 provides for the recognition by His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom of certificates of naturalisation granted in the Dominions in consideration of services rendered in connection with the prosecution of the war.
  Clause 7 confers a discretion on the Secretary of State not provided under the existing law so as to enable him to refuse to register any declaration of alienage made during war time by a British subject. Where the person in question has also the nationality of an enemy state, such declarations are under the general law invalid. Some of the Dominions have under war legislation prohibited declarations of alienage altogether. It is considered, however, that for the purposes of the United Kingdom a discretionary power is more suitable. Clause 7 provides that such declarations shall be of no effect until they have been registered by permission of the Home Secretary in accordance with regulations. Clause 8 provides a general power for making regulations necessary to implement the foregoing provisions of the Bill, and Clause 9 provides for the registration of births in countries where His Majesty has no diplomatic representation owing to war conditions.
  I think I have said enough to make clear to hon. Members the meaning and
  1262
  the purpose of a Bill the Clauses of which are necessarily somewhat technical in character. The Bill, I think, fulfils the pledges given in regard to war-time legislation. It is necessary, it is useful, and it is non-contentious, and any criticism that it may encounter will, I imagine, be directed more to what it does not contain than to what it does. Some hon. Members, I know, desire to see changes of a far-reaching character in our nationality laws. I would, however, remind them that changes of a radical character, whatever their merits or demerits, would undoubtedly give rise to contention. They would require prolonged and detailed discussion between Members of the British Commonwealth, and they would involve the greatest possible administrative inconvenience if introduced in the middle of the life and death struggle in which we are now engaged. I trust, therefore, that the advocates of change, whether for better or for worse, in this legislative field will content themselves with a demonstration and a display of their banners, and give us their co-operation in passing these harmless and necessary changes into law.
  Mr. Pethiek-Lawrence: This is a small Bill dealing with a small part of a very large subject. Like so many other matters, the question of nationality appears to be a very simple one to the unsophisticated, but the more it is studied the more complicated it becomes. As an illustration of the simple view, I think I may quote the eloquent words written by Gilbert in "H.M.S. Pinafore":
  "For he might have been a Roosian,
  A French, or Turk, or Proosian,
  Or perhaps I-ta-li-an!
  But in spite of all temptations
  To belong to other nations,
  He remains an Englishman."
  This simple view, moreover, tends to confuse nationality with race, and assumes that it will be easy to decide for each person. Of course, in the great majority of cases no doubt this is so, but exceptions are sufficiently numerous to present a real problem. What, for instance, is the nationality of a German-Polish Jew domiciled in the United States, or of his wife, herself originally an American citizen, or of one of their offspring, born perhaps during a visit to Italy, or let us say on a Dutch ship in Portuguese waters? In peace time the answer to such questions as these may seem to be

  1263
  mainly academic, though undoubtedly it affects the question of voting rights; but in war time the answer has serious consequences to the lives and liberties of the person concerned, as many hon. Members in touch with the residents in their constituencies have, no doubt, occasion to know.
  Although they constitute the headache principally of the Home Secretary, as the presence of the Under-Secretary of State bears witness, they also affect the Minister of Labour, the Service Ministers, the Minister of Health, the Minister of Pensions, and I think the Foreign Office. In his desire to increase the man-power and woman-power of this country, the Home Secretary would, naturally, like to have the net of British citizenship flung as widely as possible, but the Minister of Home Security will also naturally be anxious to exclude from citizenship any one who may be a danger to this country, and the two Ministers have to commune together to come to a suitable decision. I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend, who is not present at the moment, will have no difficulty in meeting his colleague in that way. In these circumstances, the Bill before us has had something in the nature of an hermaphrodite birth.
  It is the business of the House to be sure, as far as possible, that the possession of. British nationality is coincident with the sentiment of loyalty to the British Crown and to the British tradition. We desire this because the rights, privileges and responsibilities of British nationality should belong to those who are fundamentally loyal, and for this purpose we assume that those who are born of British stock and have resided all their lives in this country will be loyal and, fortunately, with very few exceptions that is the case. We assume, further, that those who have gone through the protracted operation of naturalisation will also be loyal and, though we have to look with a little more caution on those persons, again we are generally right. Clause 4 of the Bill removes the protracted character of the formalities required to naturalise and substitute for it some special provisions. The Under-Secretary spoke of it, I think, as affecting only French sailors but—perhaps I misheard him—there is no such limitation, as I read it, in the Clause. It
  1264
  applies to any Frenchman, and not only to the past but to the future as long as the war lasts. Therefore, if some Frenchman, when a Second Front should be developed, should take a desire to get enlisted in the British Forces—I do not know whether he could—he would have the right to become a British subject. I do not think there is any limitation imposed except in so far as there may be a difficulty in a Frenchman actually enlisting in the British Forces.
  With regard to those who may be domiciled in this country but have never gone to the trouble of taking out naturalisation, we assume that they remain aliens in sympathy. That assumption, of course, is not always correct, as I have good reason to know. There are a great many aliens in my constituency who have resided there a very long time, some of them thoroughly loyal to this country, but we assume that they are aliens and we treat them as such. Of course, it is, technically, their fault if they have not taken the trouble to naturalise and they are responsible for it. At the same time the Home Office in many cases has been reasonable and has not imposed very strictly the conditions of alienage when it would seem that those people are loyal to the country of their adoption.
  It is when we come to the people whose nationality has been decided vicariously for them, where there is more difficulty, and to some extent more debatable ground. In this category come the children of British parents born while those parents are in foreign countries or in British Protectorates, and Clauses 1, 2 and 3 enlarge their means of being recognised as British subjects. I imagine that this slight change which is being made in the law will be approved in all quarters of the House, also Clause 6, which ensures that vicariously acquired citizenship needs to be reaffirmed by the person himself. But in this category of persons whose nationality is, by British law, altered for them without their own volition, are women in consequence of their marriage. A British-born woman marrying an alien automatically loses her British citizenship and becomes an alien. This may seem reasonable when she goes to reside in the country of her husband who is domiciled there and when, with him, she falls into the ways and habits of life of the foreign country, but the law

  1265
  remains the same even when the husband is domiciled in this country and she and he continue to reside here. They are, to all intents and purposes, regarded as British, yet she is treated as an alien, and everything the Under-Secretary said with regard to the children of parents born abroad, about their being in accord with the traditions of this country and being loyal in every respect, is equally true of the wife married to an alien who is domiciled but who has never been naturalised in this country.
  On the other hand, a foreign woman who comes here and marries a British subject—it may be merely a formal marriage entered into for the express purpose—becomes, automatically, a British subject and, unless the attention of the Home Secretary is specifically called to her, she is free to roam all over the country and has all the privileges, rights and responsibilities of a British subject. There is a great and growing feeling here, and certainly also in Australia and New Zealand, where they have brought in special legislation dealing with these matters, that these anomalies should be brought to a speedy termination. I see from the Order Paper that an attempt is to be made to amend the Bill so as to incorporate these changes and I hope that, if possible, that will be done, but I expect, following on the pronouncement that we have already heard from the Under-Secretary, that certain objections will be taken by the Government. The first, of course, is that such an alteration would be outside the intentionally narrow scope of the Bill, and that may be true, but it would be no reason why, if the matter is not only of equal importance with the small matters referred to in the Bill but is very much more important, it should not be the subject of a separate Bill, and the Government might make that promise. The Under-Secretary has also put forward the objection that any change in that direction must be taken in step with the Dominions. I think it is common knowledge that some of the Dominions, notably Australia and New Zealand, have shown more anxiety than has been shown in this country to take this step. I would, therefore, ask whether we must really wait till all the Dominions, the least progressively inclined in the matter, are agreed before action is taken.
  1266
  A further objection is that it would create world difficulties. That has been said for a very long time and, when it was first said, there was abundance of truth in it, because practically all the world had the same views about nationality as we had, but since that objection was originally taken, there have been very large changes, not only in world views but in world legislation. The backward attitude of the British Government, instead of being in line with world practice, is rapidly becoming behind the centre of gravity of world practice, and is causing great difficulty by creating the anomalous position of State-less persons and the double nationality of persons.
  Finally it is said, as I anticipated it would be, that this is not the time. That is a very easy thing to say. It has been said for many years; it was not the time in the last war, it was not the time after the last war, it was not the time between the two wars, it was not the time when this war was in sight, and it is not the time when the war is on. Some of us are beginning to wonder when it will be the time. The anomalies that are being created at the present moment are very serious and are likely to be serious when the war comes to an end. Therefore, I suggest to the Government that they should think again on this matter. It may be that this change would be inappropriately spatchcocked into a very small Bill, but I am afraid that it brings us to this conclusion. Though this Bill will, I imagine, be unanimously approved by the House, all the same the one great anomaly in the attempt to assimilate nationality with loyalty is this treatment of the married women. Therefore, the Bill, although useful, lacks the change most needed, and for that reason is defective in a way that I believe a considerable number of persons in the House and a great number in the country and in His Majesty's Dominions regard as of supreme importance.
  Mr. Silverman: I agree with my right hon. Friend that there is nothing in this Bill that will not be accepted generally by the House and that any criticism that may be made of it is directed not so much to what is in it as to what might have been in it. It cannot be denied that even when all the anomalies which this Bill corrects have been corrected, there will still be gaps,

  1267
  anomalies, inadequacies and deficiencies in our naturalisation laws which, by common consent and without controversy, could be repaired now. It seems rather a pity if the Government are devoting some of the time of the House to correcting anomalies that they have not taken the opportunity of correcting all those which could have been corrected without any of the difficulties which the Under-Secretary mentioned. I want to direct attention to one point only and to make as strong and urgent a plea as I can, upon it, to the Home Secretary. It arises under Clause 4. Nationality in ordinary times is a matter of importance, but it is a very intricate and difficult study, abounding in technicalities of all kinds. There are times when it becomes a matter of extreme urgency involving questions of life and death, not after the war, but now. My right hon. Friend referred to a well known quotation from W. S. Gilbert about people who might have been of other nationalities but who chose our own. I am reminded that there are naturalised persons who proudly claim that they are much better British subjects than the natural-born ones, for whereas the natural-born British subject is as by accident of birth, the naturalised one is a British subject by choice. I am not concerned with that kind of consideration.
  We have in this country a great many people whose nationality of origin is German but who are serving in our Forces, most but not all in the Pioneer Corps. There are others of Austrian nationality to whom some consideration ought to be given, and there are many of them on active service overseas. All these men are of military age, and, being nationals of countries which have conscription, they are, technically, deserters from the German Army. They are fighting on our side willingly as volunteers, taking all the risks that others take but taking in addition a risk which others—our own people—are not asked to take. They may be taken prisoner; if they are, they will certainly be shot as traitors and deserters from the armed forces of their country of origin. Though no compulsion can be applied to them here, they are serving the same cause as we are, serving in our ranks and taking the risks that we call upon them to take. We have no right to omit any step which we could take to protect them from that extra danger. We have every right to
  1268
  expect that a certain recognition—not more than we give to our own people—should be given to the fact that these people are prepared to take all the normal risks of war. We have no right to call upon them to take abnormal risks. If they are taken prisoner they are liable to immediate death, and as our law now stands we shall have no right to intervene, no right to be heard and no right to call upon the Protecting Power to act in our name in the protection of these men. The Germans, if we attempted to do it, would reply that no Convention about the treatment of prisoners of war applies to these people.
  Mr. Peake: I want my hon. Friend to get his mind on to the main point here. Does he really think that these people would be in any better position, if they fell into German hands, if they had committed the additional offence of acquiring an enemy nationality during war-time?
  Mr. Silverman: If a man has committed a capital offence already, he cannot worsen his position by committing another capital offence. Therefore in this case he will be in no worse position if we make him a British national, so far as the law of Germany is concerned. To be candid, I doubt very much whether these people would be much better off. It may very well be that the German authorities would ignore the fact that we recognise those people as nationals of ours and would say to them "You were nationals of Germany when you deserted Germany and took service with the Armed Forces of Great Britain," and therefore any intervention that we might claim to exercise, either directly or through the protecting Power, might be brushed aside by those who now oppress Europe and the German people. But that fact cannot justify us in omitting to take a step which might afford a hope, however forlorn, of protection or intervention. We have no right to desert them, and thus leave ourselves in a position where we should have no legal right to intervene. It may be that if we give ourselves a legal right to intervene, Germany will not recognise that right, but that fact cannot justify us in omitting to arm ourselves with the power and the right to intervene.
  Let us look at what is done by Clause 4. It deals with a limited class of people who might be in the position that I have just described. It is said that if such a person satisfies two conditions (1) that he is or

  1269
  has at any time during the period of the present war been a member of His Majesty's Forces, and (2) is a proper person to be naturalised as a British subject the Home Secretary has power to dispense with the normal conditions of naturalisation and grant a naturalisation certificate. All I am asking is that the principles on which naturalisation may be granted to that class of French nationals may be applied to anyone of any nationality of origin or of no nationality now who fulfils those conditions. I do not see why it cannot be done generally, but if it cannot be done generally, can it, at least, be done in the case of every individual who either by direction or by his own initiative serves overseas, where he may be taken prisoner?
  So far as I can see there is no understandable differentiation between the case of the French nationals and the case of other nationals in the like position. My hon. Friend said that there is a difference because the Prime Minister did give a pledge in the case of Frenchmen and that this Clause honours that pledge. Very well; but the fact that we did not pledge ourselves to do what we obviously ought to do is not a reason for not doing it. If the matter had been considered can it be thought possible that such a pledge would have been refused in those cases too? If we have given a pledge to one section of a common class can we in honour refuse the same protection to all members of that class? I suggest that we cannot. This question does not raise controversy, cannot raise controversy. No Member of this House would willingly be guilty of the blood of one of these men, and we should be guilty of it if we had taken no steps to prevent his being murdered by the Germans because he had served us. There is no need to consult the Dominions. We are not introducing any new principle but merely applying the principle of Clause 4 to all those people, without distinction of race or nation or creed, to whom the condition applies. I cannot promise that if my hon. Friend makes no concession we will allow the Bill to go through without a challenge. I do not propose to challenge the Second Reading, because it is a good Bill in any case, and it ought to be on the Statute Book, but on the Committee stage I propose to move to leave out the limiting words in Clause 4 and to give this House, in Committee, an opportunity of indicating to the Home Secretary that it sees no
  1270
  reason in practice and no justification in principle for excepting these others from the protection given to the French.
  Colonel Cazalet: I support very heartily what the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) has said. I, like others, welcome what is in the Bill. A few crumbs are, I suppose, better than nothing at all, but the Minister was wise when he said that these few crumbs would probably whet the appetites of those who have been interested in this problem for some time. I have read the Debate on this subject in another place, and I realise that our appetite is not going to be satisfied very fully by the Government. I welcome this Bill because, first of all it fulfils a promise, and also because it removes in some degree certain anomalies and anxieties under which people were suffering and thereby helps them to make a greater contribution to the war effort; but, like others, I regret very sincerely that the opportunity has not been taken to remedy certain other long-standing grievances which are very germane to the matters dealt with in the Bill. I think my right hon. Friend the Minister would be surprised if I were to tell him how many letters I have received from women all over the country who, owing to existing regulations, find themselves in an impossible position, women who are contributing 100 per cent. to the war effort by factory work or in some other capacity. He would also be surprised if he know how many Members of this House, Members of all parties, have offered me their support in any Amendments that I can get the Government to accept.
  I think it is 15 years since I introduced, with the assent of Members in all parties, a Bill dealing with the nationality of married women. I have no desire to deal at length with the pros and cons of that admittedly complicated question, but I feel now, as I felt then, that it is wrong that a woman's nationality should be, as it were, merely a by-product of marriage. It ought to be a thing standing on its own basis and rights, and within the option of the woman herself. That is why I regret that the Bill, which could so easily have been made to cover some, although perhaps not all, of the points which we should have liked, has not been utilised for that purpose.

  1271
  Although the acts of the Government since the war and the introduction of the Bill have removed certain anomalies, this very Bill and the Government's own action in the past have created new anomalies. Under Section 10 of the Act of 1933, upon the declaration of war by this country British wives of enemy aliens have been able, with the consent of the Home Secretary, to regain their British nationality. I am not quite sure what "enemy aliens" means. Is the British wife of a Finn, a Rumanian or a Hungarian also entitled to the same privileges? That provision was a good thing. It was wise and right in itself, but, strange as it may seem, the British wives of friendly aliens, finding themselves in exactly the same position, have not been able to go to the Home Secretary and demand their British nationality. These women are still subject to certain restrictions and to Home Office Regulations. The Home Office have gone a certain way to remove the restrictions, but a British woman married to a Czech or a Pole working in a factory and who has a family, has to go to a police station in order to get permission every time she wants to move from one district to another. The permission is readily given, but I do not think the Home Secretary realises what a stigma it places on such a woman. It has been pointed out that the Bill gives privileges to a number of Frenchmen who are serving in our Forces, chiefly in the Navy. We are very glad that these privileges should be given to those who gallantly risked everything in a crisis in the history of their country to come over and help us; but it has been pointed out that, if those Frenchmen are worthy of those privileges, surely the large number of Czechs, Poles and others, many of whom have been living in this country for years and have been serving in the British Army from the very beginning of the war, must be entitled to the same privileges. It is the wives of some of these men who are restricted in their movements and are subject to Regulations.
  I can mention the case of a Czech who enlisted at the very beginning of the war. He gave up a position of considerable profit in which he was making a good living, and he joined up at once. He was accepted in those days, but he had not taken out his naturalisation papers. To-day he is an alien and his wife is subject to limitations. I have laid the
  1272
  individual case before the Home Secretary and the Home Office numerous times, but the answer is always the same: "We do not intend to consider the naturalisation of any of these men until the war is over." If the Home Office has power to consider the nationality of some 500 Frenchmen, about whose antecedents they can know very little—I am not, of course, questioning those antecedents—it is not asking very much that the Home Office should consider the cases of people to whom I refer. The argument that the time of the Home Office is so occupied that they cannot consider one case is now completely given away. I ask the Home Secretary to make a beginning and thus to give hope to others that their time for consideration will come. We might go some way towards the custom of America, which is, I understand, that where an individual who has not yet become an American citizen has served a certain period of time in the American Forces, he ipso facto has the right to demand American citizenship.
  Mr. Silverman: I do not know whether the hon. and gallant Member is aware that we ourselves adopted that principle in the last war and gave naturalisation as a right to aliens who served in our Forces. We have abandoned it in this war.
  Colonel Cazalet: I did know it, and I am very glad to be reminded of it. It reinforces my argument and also the case, which, the Home Office will find, has warm support in all quarters. If a man is willing to fight and die for a country, he has at least a right to demand the privileges of citizenship of that country. There is another point which should be included in the Bill. A good many of us cannot help remembering that foreign women who marry British citizens automatically receive all the privileges of British citizenship. This is something which was grossly abused just before the war, and I believe that now is the time when some qualification of residence ought to be demanded before a foreign woman who marries a British citizen should acquire the full rights of British citizenship. Again, the custom by regulation in America, under what is, I believe, called the Cable Act, is that a foreign woman marrying an American citizen has to have so many months or years of domicile in the United States before she gets her American citizenship. I put forward these suggestions,

  1273
  and I ask the Government to support them. After all, it is their own policy. In 1931, the Government, at the League of Nations, declared their policy in this matter—and I will read it if I may. It was as follows:
  "The British Government considers that it is right that all the disabilities of married women in matters of nationality should be removed, and that, in so far as nationality is concerned, a married woman should be in the same position as a man, married or unmarried, or as a single woman."
  This declaration was read in the House of Commons in 1933, during the Debate on the Second Reading of the Government Bill, and was acknowledged to be the continued policy of the Government by the then Home Secretary, It has never been denounced, repudiated or modified by any subsequent Government. To declare a policy and then to refuse to implement it is absolutely meaningless. What is the Government's answer? I have read the Debates in the other House. The Government have now put the same answer forward again: "We must not move any faster than the Dominions in this matter. We must all keep in line, which is very important from an Imperial point of view." That is a very old argument, which seems on the surface a wise one, but it always enables the Government to do nothing.
  However, in this matter, the Home Office apears to be plus royaliste que le roi. The Dominions of Australia and New Zealand have already passed legislation dealing with the rights of their own women who have married foreigners. The Irish Free State gives its own passports to its own people in various parts of the world without any consideration for our Regulations at all. So much for Empire unity on this matter. I recognise that this affects only a small minority of people in this country. It is difficult for many of them to raise their voices, but it is only once in every few years that we get an opportunity of discussing this matter. In my humble judgment, there is a grievance here which the Government, by their declaration of policy, have admitted. No one is more aware of the complications and difficulties of this problem than I am. I hope that the Minister will be moved by the very considerable support which is given to our views and that he will report to the Minister that there is strong feeling on this matter. I recognise the appeal made by the Minister that we should not
  1274
  oppose the Bill. I shall submit to the appeal because, among other reasons, I am afraid I cannot do anything else. My opposition would be quite ineffective. I hope, however, that if we give the Minister this Second Reading, and support him in the final stages of the Bill, he will bear in mind our co-operative spirit on this occasion, and when that day comes that we ask him to put right what is now an ancient and admitted wrong, he will listen to our request with sympathy.
  Sir Francis Fremantle: The hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken has a long and honourable record as a champion in this House of ladies' rights in this matter. We cannot in advance discuss the Amendments which he and other have put down on the Order Paper and to which various ladies have asked us in the Lobbies to give our signature. I have had some experience of this question of aliens in another capacity, which I should like to mention, as chairman of a small Aliens Sub-Committee that deals with medical manpower. We have had several very hard cases to deal with. We have worked in conjunction with representatives of the Ministry of Health and of the Home Office and have found them most helpful in the matter, most forward looking, considering the actual difficulties in each case, trying to do what is best for the public interest and at the same time to meet hard cases. I should like to pay that little tribute for what I have seen of the administration in the Home Office. That does not come into this Bill, however. There are other points in this Measure which are to deal with hard cases which arouse our sympathy. Similarly, I do not want to touch on them except that when we examine them more closely in Committee I hope I shall be able to give my support.
  When we come to the proposed enlargement of this Measure, I want to bring forward one particular point in respect to which I know I shall be thought to be an enemy by those with whom I desire to co-operate in this House. That is the question of the division of interests between husband and wife. There are particularly hard cases at the present time, during the war. I have always believed in having laws laid down as a generalisation which must be broken for particular cases. But I want to lay it

  1275
  down most strongly that the time has come to revise during the war a good many of our principles and practices, and one of these points we have to revise is the whole status of marriage. We have recognised now the appalling position into which this country and other countries are getting through the decline of the birth-rate for some time past. What is the real basis of marriage? That basis, going right back to pre-Christian times, is in order to provide for the future of the race, and therefore it is well that we should consider the question of the children, as it is considered in one of the Clauses of the Bill. The children are too often forgotten when we are dealing with marriage questions, divorce and so on. The children are considered a by-product whom we really need not worry about; it is considered to be only a matter between the two principal partners, husband and wife; and that is wrong.
  But when it comes to a question of nationality, what greater rift can you imagine between husband and wife than if they are to have separate nationalities? I can imagine no greater separation of interest than that, with all its implications. I can imagine nothing, with all its implications, which would be, and is, in so many instances of which we know such a subject of absolute division between husband and wife, with all the miseries that implies to the family, and to the children, as that of a divided nationality. We should proceed on that kind of line instead of promoting what is called the right of the British woman to have British nationality, regardless of her husband, or the disabling of a foreign wife to have what are considered the advantages or disadvantages of the English nationality of her husband. These discords, I think, ought to be soft-pedalled a good deal. I believe that the more you can help—I like putting the word "help"—a woman to be true to her husband in his strong national feeling as well as in his personal relations, the better. The more you can help a husband to be true and sympathetic to his wife in those relations, the better. I say that marriage must always be that you marry for better or for worse; and that means that, if you are considering marrying into another race and country strongly divided from your own, you have to reckon out the position. You have to do it whole-heartedly and marry into the nationality of the spouse you have
  1276
  chosen to marry. Anything else is belittling marriage vows, and it is belittling the real future of the race. It is the future, as well as the safety, of the race which I contend should be the main objective in this legislation; seeking to maintain the common nationality of a married couple and putting great difficulties in the way of making exceptions to the general rule.
  Dr. Edith Summerskill: I am very pleased to have the opportunity of following the hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle). I realise that he and I belong to different generations.
  Sir F. Fremantle: I am the advanced one.
  Dr. Summerskill: I am shocked to find the hon. Gentleman, who no doubt has given much thought to marriage, having been married for a long time himself, and also, as a doctor, to population problems, has come to the conclusion that if we remedy this injustice which is being discussed in the House, we shall cause marital disharmony. Has he considered this point, that a British woman who during this century has enjoyed the rights and privileges of equal citizenship, who has, since the Sex Disqualification (Removal) Act, 1919, been allowed to enter all the professions of the country with the exception of the Church and the Foreign Office, when she is married to a man and is deprived of her nationality, becomes in many cases a woman who is resentful and discontented because she is deprived of her rights?
  The hon. Member, I am afraid, is only looking at marriage from the aspect of the husband who is anxious for his wife to identify herself fully with himself. But he has forgotten that the modern woman views this matter in an entirely different manner. I want to remind him of a case of which he has probably heard. There is a lady in Surrey married to a member of the Fighting French Forces. She has two sons fighting with our Forces and a daughter with the Auxiliary Services. Her ancestors have lived in Surrey for generations. They have served on the local councils, but this woman is compelled, because she is married to her husband, to report to her local police station.
  On two occasions she has refused to do this and has been fined. On the last occasion she said she would go to prison, but a relative prevailed on her, because she is delicate, to pay the fine. Does the

  1277
  hon. Member think that she is happily married? Can he think that that kind of treatment will promote marital harmony? I venture to suggest that if this Bill was amended, perhaps it might have more effect on the improvement of the population problem than the hon. Gentleman thinks. It is very difficult for the women of this country to understand how the Government can draft a Bill of this kind and totally ignore the representations which have been made to them by the women of the country during the last few months. We are heartily tired of taking deputations to Ministers. I myself am nauseated when I think of the number of times Ministers have said to me, "Yes, we approve in principle of what you ask." Then Bills are introduced in this House, and we find that our demands have been ignored. I ask the Under-Secretary to tell us why women are ignored in this fashion.
  In the Gallery of this House to-day there are many women who are suffering because they have married aliens and have been denied their civil rights. The position, in my opinion, is reminiscent of the days when the wife was indeed a chattel, when her husband had the right to thrash her, so long as the stick was no larger than his thumb, when all her property belonged to her husband after marriage, and when she lost all rights to her individuality. Surely, it is an anachronism, since the passing of the Sex Disqualification (Removal) Act, for a wife to be deprived of her nationality on marriage. Last week we heard an hon. and gallant Member ask that the son of a man showing pro-Nazi sympathies should be debarred from the Royal Air Force. A Member, quite rightly, rose and said that a son must not be held responsible for the sentiments of his father; and the whole House cheered. Why should a wife be punished because she does not belong to the same country as her husband? Why should she be penalised because her husband belongs to another country? I know that many people argue that the marriage relationship is closer than that of father and son, and that the influence exerted by a husband upon his wife is so great that it would be wrong to allow a British woman married to an alien to retain her civil rights. If that is right, why do we allow an alien woman to take the nationality of her British husband? Surely the influence
  1278
  exerted by an alien wife on her British husband is as great as the influence exerted by an alien husband on his Briitsh wife. The famous spies of the past have all been women. Yet we find the paradoxical position that an alien woman can marry a British man and enjoy all the rights of which the British woman is denied if she is married to an alien. I ask the Government to introduce another Bill to remove this injustice. I am sure that they would have the support of the whole House.
  Mr. A. Bevan: I do not want to delay the House long on this matter, as I imagine hon. Members are merely giving the right hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary advance notice of what is likely to take place on the Committee stage. I will only give one or two illustrations of the sort of anomaly with which the Bill fails to deal. There can be hardly a Member of this House who has not at some time or another during the war gone to the Home Office about the naturalisation of someone serving in His Majesty's Forces. I have done so on several occasions, but without much effect. The attitude of the Home Office on this problem is revealed not only in the Bill itself, or in what is not in the Bill, but in the fact that even aliens who can prove more than four years' residence in Great Britain find it practically impossible to obtain naturalisation at present, except when there is a very strong Government departmental recommendation behind the application. I know many doctors in this country who are denied the full employment of their professional capacities because they are aliens, and I can imagine, therefore, that behind the speech of the hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle) there lay perhaps some professional defences which he did not disclose. The fact is that the Home Office has taken up towards this matter a most reactionary stand.
  Not only are there the instances that my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) mentioned, but there is an anomaly which I think has not yet been mentioned in the Debate. At the beginning of the war a number of aliens volunteered for His Majesty's Forces. They were immediately put in the Pioneer Corps, and there they are now. Aliens who did not volunteer are able to remain in civil employment, and where they can

  1279
  satisfy the police regulations they have perfect freedom of movement; but those aliens who were sufficiently enthusiastic about our cause to enlist in the Forces remain there, suffering disabilities all the time. In point of fact, it now has become an action to be punished if you volunteer to fight in His Majesty's Forces, and the less enthusiastic an alien is about our cause the greater freedom of action he has and the less disability he suffers. I believe that if the Home Secretary removed all these anomalies he would have the approval of the whole House. Why does he not do so? The reason is that the most reactionary Department of all is the Home Office.
  Mrs. Tate: Not quite.
  Mr. Bevan: Perhaps the hon. Lady knows Departments which are worse; but at any rate the Home Office is a good runner-up.
  Mrs. Tate: Yes, it is a good runner-up.
  Mr. Bevan: It fights a stubborn rearguard action against progress. I understand that America takes an entirely different attitude. Every alien recruited into the American Army immediately gets full citizen rights. Is not that so? Why are we backward? The British Government waste good human material in the Pioneer Corps at the present time. Men do nothing but dig trenches, fill them up again and then dig them again. A very considerable number of men of great professional capacity, with distinguished careers in fighting against Fascism, enthusiastic supporters of our cause, are being wasted by the stupidity of the Home Office on this matter.
  Mr. Peake: I must interrupt the hon. Member. What happens to an alien once he is in the Pioneer Corps has nothing whatever to do with the Home Office. It has wholly to do with the War Office.
  Mr. Bevan: That is not the point. The right hon. Gentleman misses the point absolutely. The fact is that, if we conferred British citizenship upon all these people who have volunteered for enlistment in His Majesty's Forces, at once we would be able to bring more reasonable pressure to bear upon the War Office to make fuller use of the men who are there at the present time. That is the point. Of course it is true that once the Home
  1280
  Office take up a reactionary stand of this sort the War Office enthusiastically follow their example. We know that very well. The men must go into the Pioneer Corps if they enlist, and so the right hon. Gentleman sets a bad example to a Department already too enthusiastic in following examples of that kind. I therefore suggest seriously to the House and the Government that here is a matter in which they lag hopelessly behind public opinion and the opinion of the House as a whole.
  We have been told that the chief obstacle towards having these reforms carried out now is that we have not the consent of the Dominions. What steps have the Home Office taken to obtain that consent? Are they taking any steps at all? They can say they have taken some provisional steps, but have they really treated this as a matter of urgency? We know that Australia and New Zealand have done it, but what about Canada and South Africa? Have they done it? The Government can send missions and right hon. Members all over the world for various purposes, but have they sent anybody at all to Canada or South Africa to implore the Governments there to fall into line with the rest of the British Empire? Of course they have not, because the Government want an alibi for not moving. We are told that one reason why it is not done is because it would involve a great deal of work by the Home Office in tracing the histories of people who want to be naturalised. This has already been done in many cases. What better evidence could you have of the sincerity and worthwhileness of a man than the fact that he is prepared to fight for the cause in which he enlists? What better evidence have you than that? I submit that an overwhelming case has been made out against the Government, and when we come to the Committee stage we shall try to implement the point of view of the House in Amendments.
  Mrs. Tate: I had no intention of intervening in this Debate, and I will only keep the House for a few moments. I would not have intervened had it not been for the speech of the hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle). He has told us that in the interests of increasing the population and of unity in marriage it was essential that husband and wife should have the same nationality.

  1281
  He said, truly, that you marry for better or for worse.
  Mr. Stokes: Hear, hear.
  Mrs. Tate: It is delightful at least to be able to agree on some slight point with the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes). The hon. Member for St. Albans also said that a husband and wife should have exactly the same outlook. May I ask him to consider for one moment the position of a woman who married a German who was an advanced member of the Weimar Republic when Germany came under Nazi rule? Supposing her husband became one of Hitler's most faithful followers, changing his opinion, is that women immediately to agree with all that is done in the name of Nazi Germany? The hon. Member for St. Albans laid it down that a woman, the moment she married, should give up all power of thinking and deciding for herself what is right and what is wrong. That is the only interpretation of the speech of the hon. Member. I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Colonel Cazalet) that women as well as men should be proud of their nationality. If you have any faith in your own nation, then your nationality bears with it a responsibility to engender within the world a certain way of thought. I believe in the British nation; I believe that British nationality is an honour and an obligation. I would wish women to have a full sense of their responsibilities as British citizens. That is why I greatly deplore the fact that British nationality in some cases has been obtained by paying a small sum of money to a British man who has been met abroad.
  To condemn a woman for life to a nationality other than her own because in the first flush of youth she married an alien at a time when the changing course of history leaves one with little power to foretell all that will evolve is, in my opinion, wholly wrong. It is difficult to understand why the Government, who have thought it fit to bring forward this Bill to-day, should have brought it forward without having set that position right, in view of the repeated and forcible arguments which have ceaselessly been put before them. A strong case will have to be made by the Under-Secretary if we are to approve the Government's policy—
  1282
  a stronger case than there is any possibility of my right hon. Friend being able to make.
  Mr. Reakes: A few minutes only are required by me in order to supplement what has been so admirably put forward by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Chippenham (Colonel Cazalet) and so ably supported by the hon. Lady the Member for Frome (Mrs. Tate). I welcome the Bill so far as it goes; it is an excellent Measure, but in my opinion it represents slow-motion legislation, which is out of tune with the fast-moving times in which we live. I have not heard one comment which faces the real issue, the one thing which is omitted from the Bill—that a British woman who marries an American or a Frenchman should lose her nationality. The time is overdue for that situation to be remedied, and I am sorry it has not been remedied in this Bill. In these days many women are brought into contact with men of other nationalities, and when they have fallen in love and want to carry it a step further by marriage, it is most embarrassing for them to have to make up their minds on the question, "Am I to lose my nationality?" For women to be placed in that position in 1943, when they are asked to bear the full burden of life in war time, is indeed most unfortunate. Therefore, I sincerely support the remarks made by the hon. and gallant Member for Chippenham with regard to this omission and other omissions from the Bill, and I hope the Government will take notice of these matters now that we are so generously supporting the Bill.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Donald Somervell): A detailed mastery of the Clauses of this Bill would not have assisted me very much in replying to the Debate. As far as the Bill is concerned, I would like, on behalf of my right hon. Friend, to express appreciation of the reception it has had, the promise to co-operate which has been given, and the approval of its principles, subject, of course, to the objections taken on what it does not contain. The objections have fallen under two main heads. The first is the objection that opportunity has not been taken to amend the law of British nationality with regard to married women, whether one is considering the case of a British woman who marries a foreigner or the case of a foreign

  1283
  woman who marries a British subject. The other objection has been with regard to the limited application of Clause 4.
  The House will not expect me to go into any very detailed examination of the merits of the first question, and indeed those hon. Members who have spoken have not developed it in detail. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chippenham (Colonel Cazalet), who, as has been acknowledged already, has taken a great interest in this question and been a strong protagonist of the change for many years, said quite frankly, as one would expect, that it is a complicated subject. Although no reference has been made to it in this Debate, there is one question which would no doubt have to be considered if and when a change was made—what would be the effect on the children of preserving the nationality of the mother? But the broad ground, as was indicated by my right hon. Friend, is that questions of principle affecting British nationality have always been regarded, and rightly regarded, by all parties in this House, as matters in which we should move with the Dominions, and the Dominions, if they are to move, should move wth us. As far as this matter is concerned, reference has been made to the statement that was made at Geneva in September, 1931, by the then Home Secretary. It is right to point out that that statement as made at Geneva was followed, as one would expect, by a statement that in these matters His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom did not move alone, but that changes affecting British nationality in the past had been made, and it was hoped always in the future would be made, as a matter of agreement with and common action by the Dominions. That was made quite clear at Geneva. At the Imperial Conference of 1930 the matter was discussed and agreement was not reached. The Conference was satisfied that any proposals for further modification of the pre-existing law beyond what had been agreed to at the Hague would fail to secure unanimous agreement. It followed that the Conference was unable to make any recommendation for a substantive amendment of the law on the subject.
  Mr. Bevan: Would it be possible to tell the House what attitude the Government took at the Imperial Conference?
  The Attorney-General: I certainly cannot at the moment.
  Mr. Bevan: We, therefore, do not know whether the failure to agree was the fault of the Government.
  The Attorney-General: No. [Interruption.] I am not saying whose fault it was. I am recording the fact that the statement having been made on behalf of the Government in 1931 to which reference has been made, the previous Imperial Conference had failed to come to agreement on the matter. It came up at the Imperial Conference in 1937 but it was not found possible to arrive at agreement in favour of any change in the existing law. That being so, I think that during war time it would be difficult to justify, and would certainly be departing altogether from existing principles, for this country to make a change unless we were able to carry all the self-governing Dominions with us and that is the reason why, though we agree that this is a matter of importance and one on which strong views are held, though the Government in the United Kingdom have made a statement, on the whole favourable to the views which hon. Members have put forward, we feel that it would be impracticable to deal with the matter in this Bill or at this time.
  Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: In view of the great importance of this question during the war and because of the war, have the Government taken any step to ascertain whether agreement could not be reached in the only Dominions which are standing out against this reform? Have they, since the war began, made any fresh effort to get agreement on the subject?
  The Attorney-General: I am told there is no indication of any change of view on the part of the Dominions. It is not a matter which greatly comes within my Department. We will take notice of what has been said, but I do not think there is any indication of any possibility of agreement on the matter. That is all I can say at the moment. With regard to Clause 4, I should like to assure the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) that, on the point he raised with regard to taking action through the Protecting Power, he was under a misapprehension. There is a right of intervention on behalf of a prisoner of war who belongs to the British Forces whether he possesses British nationality or not.
  Mr. Silverman: I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend would not wish to mislead himself or anyone else. The question is not whether we will have the right to speak but whether our voice will be heard. The German Government must, inevitably, say of such a man, "This man is not a prisoner of war but a German citizen who has violated German law, and we are dealing with him, not as a prisoner of war but as one of our own citizens under our own law." You would take that right away by clothing him with British nationality.
  The Attorney-General: We do not want anybody to be under a misapprehension. I understood my hon. Friend to make the point that the man's not being a British subject would prevent representations being made through the Protecting Power.
  Mr. Silverman: From being heard.
  The Attorney-General: I thought my hon. Friend said "being made," but if there is a mistake let us get the position clear. The fact that a man in our Forces does not have British nationality does not affect the position under the Prisoner of War Convention with regard to the right to make representations about him. That, of course, is what one would expect. It is well-known that many forces have aliens in them, and the right to make representations does not depend on nationality. My hon. Friend also suggested that we were putting the man at a disadvantage by not allowing him to become a British subject. In my view, so far from that putting him at a disadvantage, the act of applying for and obtaining enemy nationality is an added act, under the normal laws of all countries, of treason—an act added to the offence of being taken in arms against one's own country.
  Mr. Silverman: Then why do it for the French?
  The Attorney-General: The French are not fighting against us. I cannot think that there is anything in that point. There was a case under our own law, which some hon. Members may remember, of a man who during the Boer War applied for Boer nationality and was taken in arms against us. It was said that the application itself was an act of treason. Every one appreciates the services of these people and appreciates, too, their added danger, and
  1286
  I very much sympathise with my hon. Friend's background. Everybody must appreciate the added danger which a man runs when, being of enemy nationality and therefore committing treason under his own law, he joins our Forces in fighting against the Germans. The fact of naturalising would be an additional act of treason, from the point of view of German law, to that which he has already committed by being in arms against Germany.
  Mr. Silverman: Would the Attorney-General allow the men concerned to choose for themselves whether they would rather be without British nationality or would rather run the extra risks of having it?
  The Attorney-General: That is a different question. I was trying to deal with my hon. Friend's point that we were putting these men under some disadvantage by declining to give them British nationality. I think that that is a profound misconception of the position. With regard to the extension of Clause 4, as my right hon. Friend pointed out the pledge given by the Prime Minister was given, of course, in very exceptional circumstances. The position of Frenchmen who are in the Forces—with the Vichy Government in the position in which it was—was quite an exceptional one. There, the administrative problem involved, which has an importance in this connection, is a comparatively small one. It really is not right to say that because you may be able to deal with 500 cases, and I believe that is the outside number, therefore you can deal with this, that and the other class, which might involve up to 20,000 or 30,000 cases. I think there will be a difficulty in drawing a line between those who are serving and those who are not serving.
  Mr. Silverman: It is just the distinction that this Clause gives in the case of French citizens. The right hon. and learned Gentleman is saying that you cannot draw a distinction between those who serve and those who do not serve, but in Clause 4 that very distinction is drawn in the case of the French nationals.
  Viscountess Astor: Does not the hon. Member think that if we were as persistent about British women getting their nationality as he is about these cases——
  Mr. Silverman: Where did you get your British nationality?
  Viscountess Astor: By marrying an Englishman.
  The Attorney-General: Of course you can draw the distinction. It is drawn in the Clause. A specific pledge was given on those terms and this is honouring the pledge and no one is suggesting that we cannot honour the pledge; but on the grounds put forward by many hon. Members in this discussion, I think it would be difficult to draw a distinction between those who are serving in the Forces and those who are giving valuable services in other ways. The broad reason why the Government have restricted Clause 4 to the pledge which was given is that if we were to go beyond it, it would open up a very big administrative problem. I am sure that everyone is agreed that it is vital to see that British nationality is not given except in cases where the loyalty to and identification with this country of those who apply is undoubted. That can be done in the case of the very limited number of people covered by the pledge, but if we go beyond that we are going to place upon those who have to deal with the administrative problem a burden which really is impracticable, owing to the numbers involved, in war-time.
  There is one point which I want to correct. It was said that in the last war service in the Forces was regarded as qualifying. That is a misapprehension. After the last war no alteration was made in the normal conditions of naturalisation, except that the fee was remitted in respect of those who had served in the Army. I think that is right. I realise that my observations will not, of course, satisfy all those who have taken part in this Debate. I have put before the House the reasons which have led the Government to restrict this Bill to matters which I agree are subsidiary but in themselves are important, and not to attempt to deal with the wider problem or to adopt the wider suggestions which have been made in the course of this discussion.
  Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for the next Sitting Day.—[Major Sir James Edmondson.]

  TRAINING BATTALION OFFICER, MATLOCK (COMPLAINTS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn.—[Sir J. Edmondson.]
  Mr. McGhee: I raised this matter last September, when I made a complaint to the Financial Secretary to the War Office that a certain Lieut.-Colonel Gates, who was then in command of No. 8 Training Battalion at the Drill Hall, Matlock, was ill treating his men, that he had instructed his officers and warrant officers to ignore Army Council Instructions and had instructed them to break King's Regulations which were framed for the purpose of protecting the private soldier from cruel treatment.
  It being the hour appointed for the interruption of Business, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Beechman.]
  Mr. McGhee: I received a letter from a constituent of mine who told me that her brother had been cruelly ill treated in this battalion. He was a man of 43. I went over to make an investigation. I found that the men were continually made to do pack drill for various slight offences, that it was quite common to put them on "stiff C.B.," as the commanding-officer himself termed it, and that it was quite common to punish non-commissioned officers in the presence of the men and thereby to make them to some extent ridiculous. The War Office made no attempt to remedy this matter for some weeks. At last the brigadier himself suspended this officer, but when the War Office examined the case they actually promoted this man instead of rebuking or reprimanding him.
  It seems that when these men joined the training battalion they were promised seven days' leave after the first four weeks' training. That was a War Office Instruction. Lieut.-Colonel Gates decided that he would "larn 'em" that they were in the Army, and he issued instructions that, no matter how high their standard of training was, at least 15 men had to have their leave stopped. These men had to travel all over the country. Their passes were made out, and they had

  1289
  promised their relations that they would be home; but no, this little Hitler down in Matlock had to put his foot down and to say, "No; at least 15 of you, no matter how high your standard may be, have to stay behind." He was not satisfied with making the men's life a misery. He had to make them ridiculous in the eyes of the whole population, and in Matlock the battalion became known as the "Flanagan and Allen" battalion. The lieut.-colonel actually issued an instruction to all the officers of the battalion that when a squad of men met an officer in the street, no matter what duty they were on, the officer had to spring to attention and say "Hi-de-hi," and the men had to reply, promptly and smartly, "Ho-de-ho." I do not know what the reasons were, and Lieut.-Colonel Gates does not seem to know them himself. His battalion became known by the name I have mentioned, and as they passed along the street the kids used to shout "Hi-de-hi, Ho-de-ho," and the poor soldiers did not know whether they had to spring to attention or not. There was something worse. When Lieut.-Colonel Gates appeared, if men did not spring to attention smartly enough and reply to his "Hi-de-hi," they were punished. They got "stiff C.B." for it. I cannot find anything in British Army Regulations which entitles an officer to treat men in that way.
  I would not make these charges against anybody without substantiating them, but I have a circular here. This lieut.-colonel is a psychologist. He has the notion that he can sit in an office and run a battalion from there by issuing circulars, and he always puts into the circular something about psychology. I have read two or three of them. This is one of them:
  "The starting point is to set a high standard and allow no man to fall short from the very first minute that man enters the wing, and to close the mind to feelings of pity or excuse."
  "With a lazy disinterested squad or individual man, as a last resort and when all other methods as set out in Notes of Administration of Discipline, 1941, have been tried and failed the 'big stick' must be used."
  Do not forget that this circular was issued to warrant officers. What glorious opportunities it gives to a brutal warrant officer. It says this:
  "With such types the following are some of the methods which are useful:

  (1) Extra parade with article to be better cleaned. Recruits parading outside Sergeants'
  1290
  Mess so that squad N.C.O. has least possible trouble.

  (2) Really stiff C.B.

  (3) Extra guards.

  (4) Pack parades as in (1).

  These are only a few of many ways of making a man's life a misery until he toes the line and does what is required of him properly."
  I have had a comment on that from a lady, who says:
  "The abominable treatment of the soldiers"—
  at the Matlock Drill Hall—
  "makes my blood boil at times. So much so that I have to close my doors to try to avoid seeing and hearing what is going on."
  An old soldier who knows what pack drill is says that he is nauseated almost daily
  ".…at the torture meted out to men on pack drill. These exhibitions are having a demoralising effect on the whole vicinity. Mothers with sons in the Army are wondering if their lads are suffering a like fate."
  This officer then went on to give another instruction. He said that it was to be considered whether in some cases, despite original squadding by age—and do not forget that these men were 35 to 43 years of age—it would not be advisable to weed out the dull, the idle and bloody-minded and put them under an instructor known to be a "killer." Mr. Deputy-Speaker, this man was suspended by his brigadier for misconduct in the treatment of his men. While he was under suspension, he stayed in Matlock. He went about boasting that nobody could touch him because he had "pull," influence, at the War Office. On 12th November I wrote the Under-Secretary of State for War and told him that this man was boasting in Matlock that he was going to be promoted for this ill-treatment of the men, not reprimanded, and that he would be given a job in the supply and transport or a staff appointment which was selective promotion. This was denied by the War Office, but five months after I made the original complaint he was given the precise appointment that he boasted that he would get, despite the complaints made against him. It seems to me that this man has pull at the War Office. They wrote and told me he had been promoted and that the punishment, and the ill-treatment of the men, was merely the failing of a zealous officer who wanted to bring his men up to a high standard. I want to ask one or two questions. Who suspended this man, and on what

  1291
  evidence? If it was the brigadier who suspended him, was the evidence on which he suspended him before the Army Council when they promoted him? Had the Army Council the brigadier's report and this circular before them when they promoted him? I suggest to the Financial Secretary that the proper course is to remove this man from this appointment. He ought to be reprimanded and rebuked for his cruelty and for the breaking of King's Regulations and the ignoring of Army Council Instructions. I want it made clear to the mothers and wives of these men, in Matlock and elsewhere, that cruelty to the private soldier is not the high road to promotion in the British Army.
  Captain C. S. Taylor: I did not know that this matter was going to be raised to-day. Personally I deplore the idea that serving officers' names, whether they are right or whether they are wrong—and I do not propose to argue on that point—should be dragged out in public like this.
  Mr. McGhee: I actually wrote to the War Office and said that I would not give this man's name because I did not want to injure his innocent relatives, or even friends who are financially linked up with him, but the War Office said to me in a letter that I should give his name, otherwise the preceding and succeeding commanding officers would get the backwash. I did not want innocent men to suffer for a guilty man.
  Captain Taylor: I accept the hon. Member's explanation, but I feel that had he persisted with the War Office they would not have been slow in taking action on the case. This Colonel Gates is, in peace-time, a colleague of mine in industry. He was a Regular officer, and served with considerable distinction at the end of the last war. He resigned his commission, and was called up at the beginning of this war, being on the Reserve of Officers. I understand that he served with considerable success and distinction at Dunkirk. He was commended for his action, he was mentioned in despatches, and in many ways he was considered to be a really good officer. I do hot want to go into the merits of this case, but, as I have said, I think it is very unfortunate if we are to bandy the names of officers,
  1292
  or of other individuals, about in this House, when they have no right of reply. If there is a complaint against an officer in the Army, the Navy or the Air Force, it is, I suggest, the duty of an hon. Member to persist with the Department concerned and see that the complaint is investigated behind the scenes, and that such an unfortunate accusation as this is not made. Personally, I had never before heard of any "Hi-de-hi's" or "Ho-de-ho's" but I heard hon. Members discussing the question——
  Mr. Bellenger: What are they?
  Captain Taylor: I have not yet learnt what they are, but I am told that the phrases, whatever they mean, are mentioned in a book called "They Died With Their Boots Clean." I have not read the book, but I am told that, according to the book, it is the practice in certain regiments to have this call sound, or whatever term you would use to describe it. It seems an absurd and ridiculous thing. We have a very special duty to perform. We have great privileges in discussing matters in this House, when we do not give individuals a right to reply.
  There is a proper way of dealing with this which would give the officer in question his right of reply and of making an explanation and a statement. He would not be either hounded out of the Army or hounded into it. I hope that hon. Members will pay particular attention to this aspect and, before raising a matter of this nature, will investigate their facts very fully and take every possible alternative in raising it with the powers-that-be in the War Office before they raise it in this House.
  The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Arthur Henderson): I make no complaint against my hon. Friend in connection with this case, because he came to me early in October and brought the facts of the case to my attention. I thereupon asked for a report, and I propose to give to the House the salient features of the report or reports received in connection with this particular officer. My hon. Friend is incorrect, however, in suggesting to the House that nothing was done in relation to this case until it had been brought to my attention by him. I find that early in September the brigadier who was over this officer warned Colonel Gates,

  1293
  expressing his dissatisfaction with the methods of training which were in operation in this particular training centre. Following that, on 8th October, a special report was forwarded to the War Office by this brigadier, and on 28th October Colonel Gates was suspended. So that whatever dissatisfaction my hon. Friend may feel as to the ultimate outcome of this case, I can assure him that the incidents that were taking place and the situation that had arisen at this particular training centre, had come to the knowledge of his superior officers some time before he himself was made acquainted with them.
  My hon. Friend has quoted from a training circular that was issued by Colonel Gates to his officers and his warrant officers. I would not for one moment attempt to defend some of the contents of that circular. It contained many objectionable phrases, and I think it is a document which is likely to give a dangerous lead to the officers and warrant officers to whom it was addressed. Far be it from me to attempt to justify its issue. My hon. Friend also drew my attention to the fact that pack-drill had been ordered in the case of those who were defaulters. Pack-drill was abolished years ago throughout the British Army, and I frankly say that it was most improper for this officer to award pack-drill in relation to defaulters. In case there are hon. Members who do not know what pack-drill is, it means that a soldier parades in full marching order with his loaded pack and when he has to do drill in that condition it is called pack-drill. It is wrong for any officer to order pack-drill.
  Mr. Kirkwood: Do officers ever get pack-drill?
  Mr. Henderson: Pack-drill which was in operation some years ago was awarded only to defaulters, and defaulters were usually confined to privates and excluded officers and non-commissioned officers. But pack-drill, as such, is not permissible in the Army to-day.
  Mr. Ivor Thomas: Including detention barracks?
  Mr. Henderson: Pack-drill, as such, is forbidden throughout the British Army, which would include soldiers who are in detention barracks. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Eastbourne (Captain Taylor) has explained the
  1294
  phrases "Hi-de-hi" and "Ho-de-ho," which were phrases used in the novel "They Died With Their Boots Clean." I have not been able to ascertain how they originated but apparently they were phrases used by an instructor in the Guards to his recruits as some means of keeping them on their toes.
  It has been reported that leave was stopped, as alleged by my hon. Friend, in the case of 15 of the most backward men. They were kept back from leave at every passing-out parade and, of course, that was quite contrary to the regulations. In the light of the reports that were made it was decided that this officer was unsuitable to command men. On 27th October he was suspended from his command. At the same time, my information is not quite on all fours with my hon. Friend's information. I am informed—and my informants were not officers connected with the War Office but officers who knew the unit in question—that the unit we are talking about was considered to be a smart unit, and that a good standard of training and discipline characterised the unit as a whole. Be that as it may, the War Office authorities endorsed the suspension of this commanding officer and eventually he was appointed to the staff at the same rank. He was not promoted. [An HON. MEMBER: "I would put him back into the ranks."] That is another matter but I will put the facts before the House so that hon. Members can judge for themselves. It is a matter of great argument whether an officer, who was in command of a unit and who has been taken away and appointed to a position on the staff at the same rank has been promoted. Those of us who have had a little experience of the Army know perfectly well that the average Regular officer of the rank of lieut.-colonel much prefers to be in command of a unit than to have an appointment on the staff——
  Mr. Bellenger: Was his rank a temporary rank?
  Mr. Henderson: He was, and is, a temporary colonel.
  Mr. Bellenger: Then the mere fact that he loses his regimental appointment means that he would revert to war substantive rank, which would probably be that of major, so that when he took a staff appointment and resumed the rank of lieut.-colonel he was, in fact, promoted.
  Mr. Henderson: That is not quite what happened. He was suspended, and not dismissed, from his post. He was suspended pending the investigation, and as a result of the investigation he was not reinstated in his position as commander of the training unit, because the view was taken—and I think hon. Members will agree rightly taken—that he was not a suitable person to be in command of men. On the other hand, undoubtedly he is an efficient officer, he is extremely experienced, and as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Eastbourne has said, he has had some considerable war experience.
  Mr. A. Bevan: Does he now get an extra 5s. a day over and above what he had before?
  Mr. Henderson: No. He now gets 5s. staff pay, but when commanding a unit he would get command pay which would probably be greater than the 5s. a day staff pay; so that he is worse off financially than he was. The point I am making is that, however strongly one feels about the way in which Colonel Gates conducted the unit when in command of this training centre, it is right to say that most military officers would take the view that he has been punished, strange as it may seem, because he has been deprived of what the average lieutenant-colonel would much prefer to do, and that is command a unit rather than occupy a position on the staff.
  Mr. Bevan: Has the War Office now laid it down as a principle that the staff is to be recruited from officers unfit to command units?
  Mr. Henderson: No, Sir, the War Office is not laying down any principle.
  Mr. Bevan: It is a precedent.
  Mr. Henderson: I do not know whether my hon. Friend is familiar with these problems, but I, like other hon. Members, have had the honour of serving both in a unit and on the staff, and I think every military person would agree that it is quite conceivable that an officer might be unsuitable to be in command of men and yet make a first-class staff officer, and vice versa. Therefore, I think my hon. Friend is not scoring a bull's eye. I have endeavoured to put the facts clearly and objectively before the House, without in any way seeking to extenuate or justify the conduct of this particular officer at the time he commanded this unit. On the other hand, I hope the House will realise that it is asking a good deal to suggest that this officer should have been court-martialled and dismissed from the Army. He has rendered good service in the past and I hope he will do so in the future, and that he will have learned a lesson as a result of the way his case has been dealt with in relation to the complaints of my hon. Friend.
  Mr. Driberg: May I explain to the hon. and learned Gentleman, since he seems to be unaware of the fact, that the terms "Hi-de-hi" and "Ho-de-ho" are part of the ordinary jargon of swing music?
  Mr. Henderson: My hon. Friend is a greater expert on swing music than I am.
  Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.

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Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
The Lord Allerton—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

TIDAL WATERS AND ELECTRIC POWER.
LORD BRABAZOX OF TARA LORD BRABAZOX OF TARA rose to call attention to the possibility of tidal harnessing for the generation of electric power, and in particular to the recommendations of the Report of the Brabazon Committee on the Severn Barrage of 1933; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am taking the opportunity to-day of moving the Motion standing in my name calling attention to the Report of a Committee of which I happened to be Chairman some years ago. I was then a junior Minister, and I suppose that that was the reason I was made Chairman. The Prime Minister at that time asked us to report upon the practicability of the Severn Barrage, and I want your Lordships to understand that this was an entirety new conception of harnessing power. It was not like the damming of a river, storing up water and using it when you wanted it. This was a matter of intermittent power by virtue of tidal forces. That Committee was set up in 1925 and it had an immense work to do. It reported in 1933. That fact, I think, indicates what an immense investigation of a physical type had to be carried out. Many problems which had never been faced before were introduced and had to be explored, such as the harnessing of water power of very low heads.
I think that just one word on tides, I which constitute the basis of the whole barrage scheme, would not be out of place. We associate tides always, of course, with the attraction of the sun and the moon, and it is interesting, I think, to remember that the actual pull of the sun and moon upon the Atlantic Ocean raises that ocean four feet in the middle. If the coast were, so to speak, normal to the line of approach of that hump the tides everywhere would be four feet high. But what happens is that that hump rolls
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up against varying shapes of coasts, and the most convenient shape of coast on which to get a high tide is a V-shaped estuary. The Bristol Channel, therefore, is an ideal shape for getting an accumulation of this hump, and consequently at the English Stones, a few miles above Bristol, where it was contemplated that the barrage should be put, there is a rise of 23 feet at spring tides. There is a mean tide of 18 feet, and the neap tides figure is 12 feet. At every tide of the spring type there flows past the English Stones no less than 24,000,000,000 gallons twice a day. That is the power which is going to waste in that particular locality. This investigation was one of very great technical scope, and a sub-committee was formed, consisting of Sir John Snell, Admiral Douglas, Professor Gibson and Sir Basil Mott. Although little praise or thanks has been given to them, we do owe them an immense debt of gratitude for the work they did in this very pioneering piece of investigation.
One of the first things that had to be decided was whether such a barrage, stopping such an immense flow of water, would have a deleterious effect on navigation on the lower part of the river. Professor Gibson, of Manchester, took the solution of that problem in hand, and at Manchester he built a model of the whole of the Severn estuary. That model was based on soundings made by the Admiralty in 1849. He built that model, and he then proceeded to flood it with tides—ordinary water with a certain amount of silt in it. He imitated the tides, every tide taking about 30 seconds to come in on the model, and, so to speak, he brought 1849 up to the present day. If he had got his silt right, and all the other factors correct, then the soundings after that time should correspond with present-day soundings. At the first attempt he got his silt slightly wrong, but at his second attempt, on bringing the position up from 1849 to the present day, the model corresponded exactly with the present-day position. So extraordinary was the model that at the particular times of spring tides we did get, even on the model, the bore in the upper regions of the Severn. That showed how remarkable the model was. The barrage was then put in place in the model, and we went on from the present day to a hundred years in the future, swilling the tides out and working the barrage to see

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whether it would have an effect on the ports of Bristol and Avonmouth. The results were quite satisfactory and no trouble arose, which meant that one of the difficulties had been cleared away. It is of interest to remark, in passing, that models of this sort have been extremely accurate. After this one, a model was made to show the effect of putting a dam across the River Dee in Cheshire, and that showed that, if this was done, it would silt up the whole estuary of the Dee in six months.
Having dealt with the question from the navigational point of view, we then turned to the electrical side of the matter. This is quite a complicated business. I am always very meek when I speak about electricity; I take the view of Stephen Leacock who, in his Manual of Education on Natural Science, tells us that electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference, he says, is that the positive is more durable but more expensive, whereas the negative is cheaper but liable to get the moth in it. I always think that one should go back to that definition when exploring electricity, because one is liable to end with formulae only which mean nothing at all when related to reality. This electrical plant was of a pioneer type, harnessing water of a very low head. It was proposed to put in 72 turbines, each of 17,000 horse-power and that plant would have delivered no less than 2,200,000,000 units a year and, when working on spring tides, with all the generators going, the station would have developed over 1,000,000 horse-power. It was therefore an extensive scheme. After paying compound interest while the plant was being installed and all charges, and wiping the capital off, the cost of current came out at 18d. per unit.
If it had been an ordinary dam the scheme would have been too attractive for words, but the trouble with the tides is that they are intermittent, and in the generation of electricity there is one disadvantage: it is not possible to store alternating current electricity, and therefore, whatever the peak load is going to be, there must be plant available to reach that peak should it be wanted. It was obvious that at many times when the maximum peak load was required the tide would not be working, and it would not be possible to get the current, so that
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the scheme would not save the capital cost of steam-generating plant, which would have to be put down to meet the maximum load at peak hours. That was a grave disadvantage, and consequently an auxiliary and ancillary scheme was introduced by which the surplus power at the peak tides was used to pump water up into the hills near by and fill a reservoir there, from which power could be derived at any time desired. Doing that reduced the number of units available per year from 2,200,000,000 to 1,600,000,000, and the extra capital cost raised the price of electricity to .237d. per unit, but the advantage of it is that you can take current when you want it to supplement the Grid at the peak load hours.
In the investigation of the scheme the price of electricity ruling at the most efficient thermal stations at the time was put at .375d. per unit, and as the scheme produced current at .237d. you will see that there is a very big difference in favour of this scheme, and it showed a saving per year of £1,250,000. They did say in the Report that current would become cheaper as time went on. I have been at pains to find out exactly whether their prophesy would come right, and it has not come right, for the reason of course that the price of coal has gone up enormously, and instead of the price of current being .3d. per unit as was expected, the price of current to-day at the most efficient thermal stations and at the same load factor is .39d., so that there is an even bigger reason for making this barrage than there was at that time.
The capital figures are big—I would not like to disguise that from your Lordships, The barrage power machinery would cost £25,000,000, the extra reservoir into which Severn water would be pumped £11,000,000, transmission lines, £1,500,000; and then it was proposed to take advantage of the barrage to put a road across the Severn at this very convenient point and also to make a railway across it too, which would supplement the Severn Tunnel. The scheme would have taken fifteen years to complete, and the capital arrangements were based upon 4 per cent. interest. But, as I say, the scheme showed a net gain of £1,250,000 a year. That Report was published in 1933, and I hoped, and I envisaged, that it would be accepted with acclamation because it was a time when we were very

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short of work; but, to adapt the words of the Jackdaw of Rheims,
"What gave rise to no little surprise
Nobody seemed one penny the better."
Nobody took any notice of it at all. I think the reason was that the building of such an imaginative and expensive scheme to make electricity saved the consumption of over a million tons of coal a year and from an area like South Wales, where there was a tremendous amount of unemployment at that time; so it had no friends at all. And, although it is some time ago, it has passed into a sort of oblivion which I do not think it in any way deserves.
But I raise this question because new factors have come in and these factors are things which bear very considerably upon the whole economic structure of this vast, imaginative enterprise. At that time the cost of coal varied from us. to 18s. per ton. The cost of coal to-day varies from 30s. to 40s. And there is this point to be remembered, that after the war there may be a very great disinclination among the young men to go down and devote their lives to mining. That is already being shown. People would rather indulge in other forms of activity than in mining. Consequently it would appear that the high price of coal will still remain. Then there is the prestige of British engineering. Tides exist all over the world. There are no examples of tidal harnessing anywhere in the world, and if we in this country could show a successful scheme for the harnessing of tides, it would be copied throughout the world, and, I hope, orders would be given to English firms. There is yet another point, which is that the civil engineering works which bulk so largely in this scheme have now been improved out of all knowledge, and there are many new ways of dealing with this vast earthwork which were not known at that time. The experts tell me that the long time required in the original plan—fifteen years—could now be reduced to eleven years. That would, of course, save a lot of capital cost, because over those fifteen years the loan was carrying compound interest at the rate of 4 per cent.
I base the plea for re-examination of this subject, not of course as a thing that can be proceeded with to-morrow, but as something that must not be forgotten, and which must be fitted into our reorganization after the war. What a dreadful waste it would be to think that in a part of
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England one million horse-power is available for the good of our country people and for our towns and our industries, and yet we are going to throw that away and compel the youth of the country to work in mines instead. I do not hope that the Minister who is going to reply can say anything very definite to-day, except to give a vague promise of how perhaps this scheme may be fitted into the future. But I would like to tell him that there are one or two technical matters which still want investigation. I hope he will be able to say in reply that he will give an assurance that these technical investigations will be proceeded with even now in order that we may be ready with this pioneer and imaginative effort. I beg to move.
VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE: My Lords, I make no apology for intervening in this debate, although I do not profess to have any technical knowledge whatever of this extremely interesting but somewhat abstruse problem. But I live in the neighbourhood where this immense engineering scheme was contemplated and within twelve miles of what is known as the English Stones from which the barrage would cross the estuary of the Severn, (I am not quite sure whether it is estuary or Bristol Channel at that point, but I think it is estuary), reaching across to that part of Gloucestershire that is situate in the neighbourhood of Avonmouth. I may say that for many years past we, in that area, comprising a large part of Gloucestershire, Monmouthshire and Glamorganshire, not to mention what I may call the hinterland counties, have been talking about the possibility of something in the nature of a Severn Barrage for the generation of electric power, coupled, as we have always hoped, with a more effective means of crossing the estuary by road and rail than exists at the present time.
I think I am right in saying that a Private Bill was brought forward some seven or eight years ago in another place with a view at any rate to carrying out that part of this scheme which would improve the road and rail transport across the estuary, enabling those who live and work and are industrially interested in South Wales to have easier access both to the Midlands and to London. I for my part cannot help thinking that, whatever impediment there may have been to the carrying out of this gigantic scheme in days gone by—and I believe it was due

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very largely to what I may call vested interests so far as colliery undertakings are concerned in particular—taking the long view, even if vast millions had to be extended upon this scheme, it would be undoubtedly in the national interest, and incidentally would enable a large number of lucrative industries to be established in that part of the country for which there is a serious need, and which cannot be established to-day largely owing to the cost of power. My noble friend Lord Brabazon has with great lucidity and with a good deal of picturesque illustration adumbrated a scheme, the practicability and economic justification of which, according to him, were beyond doubt. That, of course, I know nothing about; but at the end of his speech he did indicate that there were certain technical problems which would have to be solved before it would be wise, prudent, or safe to embark upon so vast an undertaking.
I do not know what these technical troubles are, but what I do want to say is that I cannot help thinking that this Old Country is a little short-sighted, somewhat myopic, in embarking with confidence—always assuming that practicability can be proved and justified in the minds of experts—upon really big schemes of industrial development. The late Joseph Chamberlain perpetually reminded us that we ought to "think imperially." I am not at all convinced whether, in relation to our Colonial administration and to our home agriculture and other problems, we have shown ourselves in the past to be "thinking imperially," that we have taken a sufficiently long view, indicating both vision and convinced judgment Surely if we claim, as we do, to be predominant in industrial matters, we ought to "think imperially" in regard to the future of British industry. In the district whence I come I see one coalfield gradually disappearing. The Forest of Dean coalfield, upon the borders of which I live, will, as far as we can estimate, in the course of the next twenty years cease to exist in any sense as a paying proposition. Over all the Welsh valleys not very far away we have seen, prior to the war, very serious unemployment, and we have seen the appalling effect of adverse conditions on a large proportion of our industrial population.
Your Lordships will forgive me if, comparing large things with small, I refer to New Zealand. Members of this House
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rather smile when I mention New Zealand, but I will say this, that nothing surprised me more in New Zealand than the fact, first of all, that 93 per cent. of the milking of cows was done by machinery and not by hand, and that the greater part of it was due entirely to the availability of cheap electric current. I use electric current on my own farm in Gloucestershire, but I have to pay something like four times as much per unit as any farmer in New Zealand has to pay, through the harnessing, not of tides, but of river water in the generation of electricity with the help of turbines. In spite of the sparse population and consequently of the relatively high transport costs in the matter of conveying electric current, it is quite easy for any farmer over the greater part of the agricultural areas of New Zealand, both in the South Island and in the North Island, to obtain current at rather less than one penny per unit. The average cost was about one halfpenny per unit. The same thing I found years ago in Czechoslovakia. The waters of the Elbe had been harnessed in a similar way, and in certain villages in Bohemia to-day you will find every sort of activity, both domestic and industrial, carried on thanks to the fact that current is available at something between one farthing and one half-penny per unit.
What occurs to me is that this problem is worth much more exploration than has so far been given to it, and careful consideration as to whether it would not be, in all human probability, a perfectly sound proposition to embark on a scheme involving many millions of money if, in the long run, you are going to establish far more industries with far lower cost of working and overhead costs, thereby rendering them much more prospectively profitable than they would appear to be to-day. In my own county we have a very effective county planning committee, and already we are contemplating establishing in this very area, within twelve miles of the English Stones, from which the barrage was expected to be constructed, something like fifteen or twenty new industries in order to provide some outlet for the labour now employed in the Forest of Dean which, ere long, will find itself idle owing to the disappearance of that coalfield as a working proposition.
I have not enough knowledge to develop this theme further, but there is one idea that has struck me, and it is

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this. If a country like Russia can spend an enormous amount of money and labour upon that vast hydro-electric scheme in Southern Russia, at a place with a quite unpronounceable name, which has been so ruthlessly destroyed, surely this rich industrial country of ours can, with confidence, embark on a similar scheme, always assuming that intermittent tidal power can be dealt with in the manner in which my noble friend Lord Brabazon assures us it can. I hope that, if the Minister cannot tell us anything else, he will be able to tell us that the matter has not been lost sight of. Speaking for the neighbourhood from which I come, where we are badly in need of new industries—that is the County of Gloucester—I assure him we shall give this scheme a very warm welcome, especially if it involves the crossing of the river by road or rail which Lord Brabazon assures us. will be a concomitant of it.
LORD SEMPILL: My Lords, I would like to support the noble Viscount who has just spoken and add a few words to his recommendation. It is to be hoped that your Lordships will give strong support to the Motion of my noble friend Lord Brabazon. Lord Brabazon told us a little of the work of his Committee, work that was extremely valuable and stretched over; a number of years. But I think your Lordships will remember that this question of harnessing the tides goes back to the end of the last century when one or two engineers from this country went over to France to Fécamp to see the small tidal harnessing scheme that was working there. While that was a small scheme, none the less it was working well in the development of electrical energy. That inspired them to think of the possibility of harnessing tidal power in these islands, and one or two thought of possibilities in relation to the River Severn. It was not, however, until, I think, the year 1920 that the late Sir Eric Geddes, whose brother is so very active to-day in your Lordships' deliberations, set up a Committee to go into this matter in the first instance. He employed Sir Alexander Gibb to get out a scheme for a Severn Barrage in the year 1920. That scheme was, as my noble friend Lord Brabazon has mentioned, to provide electrical energy, to provide also a further railway into Wales, and, as the noble Viscount
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has just said, a bridge for road traffic. The whole scheme without the cost of the rail and the road was to cost some £29,500,000; but nothing was done.
Then my noble friend Lord Brabazon in 1925 was made Chairman of a Committee. He has told us a little but not as much as he might have done about the work of that Committee, which was exceedingly valuable and stretched over many years, until 1933. The scheme got out by the noble Lord's Committee was to cost, I think, something like another £20,000,000 over that originally proposed, but no doubt it had advantages over the first scheme. In that connexion and following up Lord Brabazon's plea, would it not be very suitable for His Majesty's Government to ask Sir Alexander Gibb, who is very active in these affairs, to go into the matter afresh, taking into view the technical developments in the generation of electricity and the distribution of electricity, and to get out a fresh scheme along the lines of present-day requirements to give effect to the noble Lord's suggestion? The noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, talked in terms of horse-power, but I submit the matter to you in terms of man-power. The potential man-power that this scheme when implemented would bring to the country would be equivalent to the addition of 7,000,000 men. Therefore that is a very big factor indeed in our plans for the future, and I hope most sincerely that full support will be given to the suggestions submitted by my noble friend Lord Brabazon.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Brabazon has made a very interesting and excellent speech, as he is so well able to do on this and kindred subjects, and I have to say at the outset that His Majesty's Government welcome the opportunity which the noble Lord's Motion affords for discussion on a matter of the greatest interest to the country as a whole in relation to the problem of postwar development. Your Lordships may remember—I do not know that it is very well known to some of your Lordships—that the terms of reference of the Committee of which the noble Lord who has moved this Motion was Chairman, were simply "to inquire into, and report upon, the practicability of a Severn Barrage." My noble friend has given your Lordships a short account of the proceedings of the Committee, but I think I would do well

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perhaps to go into a few details about the matter.
The Committee was appointed in October, 1925, and made its Report in January, 1933. During the course of its work the Committee reviewed a number of tentative schemes for a barrage across the River Severn. Under the Committee's supervision a hydrographic survey was carried out by the Admiralty of the English Stones, the point on the River Severn which appeared to offer the best site for a barrage. In addition to this, as my noble friend has described in a very interesting part of his speech, Professor Gibson, who was a member of the Committee, constructed a model of the Severn estuary at the Victoria University, Manchester, and conducted a series of experimental investigations on it. As a result of these investigations the Committee recommended the preparation of a complete tidal power scheme with estimates of cost and of the total amount of electricity that might be expected to be generated, together with the approximate cost of such electricity. This investigation was carried out by consulting engineers and was extremely thorough. It will be seen, therefore, that the Committee's Report and recommendations were the result of a very long period of careful and expert inquiry. In fact the whole thing took over seven years.
During the ten years that have elapsed since the Committee's Report, and particularly during the war years, there have been certain fundamental changes in the bases upon which the Committee's estimates were founded. Indeed, it is not possible at the present time to estimate exactly what the adjusted figures would be under present conditions, and much less what they would be under post-war conditions, but I have a few figures which I think may be interesting to your Lordships. Among the most important of these basic changes are, first, the rise in the price of coal which in 1938 was 33 per cent. and in 1942 had risen to 112 per cent. above the price of 1932. Secondly, the approximate cost of coal per unit of electricity which was 15d. in 1932 rose to 16d. in 1938, but jumped to 26d. in 1942. It will be seen, therefore, that up to 1938 the reduction in heat consumption per unit had practically cancelled out the increased cost of coal, but since that date there has been a very
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material rise in the cost of coal per unit. I am afraid my advisers are not able at present to say at what level coal prices may be stabilized after the war, which is natural, but it does not seem likely—and indeed my noble friend Lord Brabazon said the same I think—that there will be a return to pre-war standards. Another important field in which there have been great changes is that of electrical equipment and engineering constructional work. It is quite impossible at the present time to say what advance in price would be necessary to cover the civil engineering work under post-war conditions. On the one hand, of course, great improvements in methods of construction have taken place in recent years and there has been also simplification in the design of electrical plant. On the other hand, there have been large rises in costs of wages and of raw materials.
Another important factor in the problem is the possibility of absorbing the maximum output from the barrage at times of spring tides which is, I am informed, nearly 800,000 kilowatts. To absorb the full amount of this output. under all conditions would involve closing down most of the existing stations in the southern part of England at some period. If the barrage scheme were to be supplemented by a storage scheme, so as to enable electricity to be produced whenever it was required, and at a price which would compare favourably with the overall cost in steam stations, this would involve, on the Committee's estimates, an additional capital expenditure of £11,500,000. A further change which has taken place since the Committee's Report, and which operates in favour of the scheme, is the reduction in the interest rate. The Committee based their estimates on an average rate of 4 per cent. per annum, but it is probable that the necessary capital could now or after the war be raised at a lower rate. Here again therefore there is a considerable field for conjecture.
As I have said, the Government welcome the opportunity for discussion of this most important matter. In view, however, of the reasons I have given, and generally of the difficulties attendant upon making any precise declaration of policy on matters of such importance as this during the war conditions, I think that your Lordships will agree that the Government

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cannot be expected to do more at the present time than to give an undertaking that the recommendations of the Committee of which my noble friend was chairman will receive the most careful consideration in connexion with the postwar reconstruction schemes as a whole. The scheme is of immense magnitude and would require so much capital resources for such a long period of time that it must inevitably compete with other claims upon national resources. As it is very much a long-term project, it would be unwise to embark upon it until there were much clearer indications of what was likely to be the level of post-war prices At this point I should like to comment upon a suggestion made by my noble friend Lord Sempill. I understood him to say that he thought it would be a good thing if the Government invited Sir Alexander Gibb to be chairman of a fresh Committee to inquire into the matter. I have not been instructed upon that point and I do not know how such an idea as that would commend itself to my noble friend opposite, Lord Beaverbrook. I think he said recently that there were far too many Committees in existence during this war. I do not think this attempt to set up a fresh Committee would commend itself to everyone.
LORD SEMPILL: May I interpose one remark? I did not suggest that a fresh Committee should be appointed, but that Sir Alexander Gibb, who was the technician previously employed, should be asked to look into the matter again.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: That suggestion will certainly be conveyed, with other suggestions made in this debate, to my right honourable friend. Here also I would like to refer to the very interesting speech made by my noble friend Viscount Bledisloe who delighted us, as he always does when he speaks. I think he has said that mention by him of New Zealand sometimes raises a smile. It does not make me smile, because I think it is extraordinarily interesting to hear of his experiences out there. I often say, and I have said in public, that I think it would be a very good thing for our Dominions if we had a few more Governors like my noble friend Lord Bledisloe. I was interested to hear from him that the County of Gloucester would welcome the scheme, though I am not quite sure that the people
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of that County would welcome it only because of the good the barrage would do. I rather think they would welcome it also because it might improve the communications between Gloucestershire and other parts of England. But whether or not I am right about that, the scheme turns not only upon general questions of national policy, such as the level of prices and the use of the country's fuel resources as a whole, but also on detailed technical considerations which must be treated as part of the general question of electricity supply for the country as a whole after the war.
I think we are all agreed that a cheap and abundant supply of electricity is one of the most important essentials to national reconstruction and post-war prosperity. Whether, having regard to all the circumstances, this electricity can be most economically and efficiently generated from coal, or whether, and if so to what extent, it can be produced from water power, is one of the most important and complicated problems which we shall have to face. It is often said that Reports such as those of the Committee presided over by my noble friend, when once they get into Government offices, are put away into pigeon holes and forgotten. That may be so, and I dare say it is so in many cases, but it is not so in this case. I can assure my noble friend—and I have the authority of my right honourable friend the Minister for saying this—that the Report of his Committee, and the mass of valuable information which was acquired during the course of that investigation holds an unchallenged place as a classic in the field of hydro-electric literature in this country, and will be constantly in the minds of the Government in relation to all major problems of fuel and power production and utilization in the post-war years. My noble friend asked me if I could give an undertaking that all technical matters in connexion with this scheme would be considered by the Government along with other matters. I can most certainly give that undertaking. I think I have dealt with all the points that have been raised and I hope that, even if my noble friend is not entirely satisfied, he will be sufficiently satisfied with my answer to withdraw his Motion for Papers.
LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: My Lords, it is very stimulating to find a Minister not taking the role of an inverted

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Micawber end waiting for things to turn down. I shall be satisfied as long as the Government, although the scheme may be pigeon-holed for the moment, do regard it as a scheme which may be gone on with at some time. I do not ask that it should be done now. As long as it is kept in mind together with other schemes after the war, I shall be happy. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

NORTH AFRICA.
LORD WEDGWOOD LORD WEDGWOOD had given Notice that he would call attention to the difficult political and military conditions in North Africa, and move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the situation both politically and from a military point of view in North-West Africa is and has been causing grave anxiety, not only in this country, but in America, and in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. We have ample evidence that things are not as we should wish them to be in that country. There are still 3,000 members of the International Brigade in concentration camps in Morocco. There are supposed to be 20,000 survivors of the Spanish Republicans also there. It is true that we have been told that the Russians in the International Brigade have been set at liberty and sent back to Russia, but my information is that still many of them are in these camps. We have been told that Czech nationals have been allowed to leave and to join up with the Czech Forces, but a telegram the day before yesterday contradicted that and said they were still interned. These were the first fighters in the war in which we are engaged. They took their place in the struggle against tremendous odds in the days when their cause was not so popular as it is to-day. If there are people to whom we owe a debt of undying gratitude we owe it to these men, and it is little less than a scandal that in a country in which we hold power they should still be interned, and interned in conditions which beggar description. Anti-Jewish laws which are a disgrace to humanity and to Christianity are still in operation in that country. The latest importation took place only on March 2, when the whole of the Vichy laws were
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imposed upon North-West Africa, also. The situation has been made worse. We hoped until recently that directly Mr. Harold Macmillan got out there he would put things right. Apparently, the situation meets with his satisfaction. The only communication from him that has been made public is to the effect that things are all right there.
I have said that the situation gives rise to grave anxiety; of course it does, not only for itself but because it is a symbol of very much more. There is certain evidence from America as to what is taking place. I read this in The Times two or three days ago:
"The National Maritime Union, part of the Congress of Industrial Organizations, the famous C.I.O., passed a resolution stating that it would not be a party to carrying vital materials to Franco Spain which can, and will, be utilized to holster the Nazi war machine."
That is an outward and visible sign of anxiety on this particular question. There is another—I think it was in yesterday's Times. The report to which I refer reads:
"Numbers of sailors from the battleship 'Richelieu' which is repairing in America, have quit their ship and made their way to Canada in the hope of getting to England and joining General de Gaulle's forces there. Many of them asserted that their officers were pro-Fascist, and that some of these officers had referred to Mr. Roosevelt and Mr. Churchill in insulting terms."
The "Richelieu" and other ships, as your Lordships will be aware, came from Dakar. The officers are the real difficulty. The French' Army in North-West Africa is mainly, if not entirely, a Colonial Army. That is to say the troops are black, and they serve under white officers. I think that anyone who met these officers after the failure in Norway will realize that they are overwhelmingly Fascist in outlook.
We in this happy island do not know the depths of bitterness that politics have introduced into France. If noble Lords will read Ilya Ehrenburg's Fall of Paris they will get some idea of the hatred existing between the different political sides in France—between the Popular Front and the Right Those who surrendered France hate those they surrendered, and if they are to be the force which is to be rearmed by this country and America and used for fighting Germany, I think that we are likely to meet with serious disappointment at least. The

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main anxiety here and in America and in Russia is lest we are providing in North-West Africa to-day an Army which will not serve the cause for which we are fighting, but will serve another cause instead, just as Franco's Moors served to destroy the liberties of Spain. That is the danger which everybody must realize. What we suspect is a desire for the preservation in Europe of a great deal that we are fighting to destroy. In the speech of the Lord Chancellor on the Bishop of Chichester's Motion the other day, the noble and learned Viscount made it abundantly clear that in no circumstances whatever would we ever enter into negotiations for peace with Hitler's Government or with any Nazi Government. But he left out—I am afraid he carefully left out—any parallel declaration that in no circumstances whatever would we enter into negotiations with a Fascist Government.
Now we have seen recently in North-West Africa a series of visits. The Roman Catholic Archbishop of New York has been there; he came from Spain and from Italy. What attitude does our British Foreign Office take towards this question of the preservation of the status quo in Italy, in France, in Spain, in Portugal? Are we going to be a party to restoring democratic Spain, or are we going to be a party to the restoration of Don Jaime? Is the present Fascist rule in France to be preserved after the war? We know perfectly well that there is a fear shared by many people in this country of an overwhelming Soviet victory. There are not many here who would fear a Soviet victory; but elsewhere many.
I have had recently two letters from Algeria. One came from an English business man who is now a Captain in the Transport Corps. He says that they are extremely comfortable out there, but that all movements of troops are made very difficult by the French; that our policy of appeasement, of never compelling action by the French, has not proved successful, and that the trains are full of French troops moving in different directions so that we cannot use them. He does not complain—it is part of the natural results of being too friendly with people who are not our friends. The other letter is from an American university professor who is now a Captain in the American Army. He writes:
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"The Arabs and the rural elements are suspicious of the invaders. City dwellers are probably ripe for de Gaullism, but are vastly puzzled that the very men who helped to get us in here are in gaol."
This was written, of course, before they were liberated:
"The old landholding and official class scarcely bother to conceal their Vichy sympathies, and it is possible that, in the light of Allied reluctance to interfere, they may be planning to tighten their hold on the Army, in order to retain control of the French Empire, in the best Fascist manner, after the war."
I think that that fear must be widely spread, not only amongst the Americans in Algeria, but amongst the Americans as a whole. It is certainly very widely felt in this country.
If we must supply arms, for heaven's sake let us supply arms to people who will certainly use them and to people who need them at the present time, like the Russians and the Chinese, but not to doubtful starters, not to people who may use them for exactly the purpose against which we are fighting in this war. An American newspaper man told me the other day that he had been to Algeria before the invasion, following up a visit by Mr. Robert Murphy. He wanted to find out what Mr. Robert Murphy was doing with General Weygand, who was there at that time. He said: "By dint of careful inquiries, I found out. I was told that they spent a great deal of time together, and, when I asked what they were doing, I was told that they were praying." That, of course, is not a bad thing in war-time. In fact, I rather like our praying Generals, from Oliver Cromwell down to Montgomery. But what were they praying for? He was told that they were praying that France might be restored to the bosom of the Catholic Church. I want to know whether we have there a duplicate of the late lamented Mr. Joe Kennedy.
The situation has not been made easier by the publication of Mr. Randolph Churchill's letter. If the choice is really between Stalin and the preservation of Salazar and Franco and Mussolini and all those shop-soiled European crowned heads, intelligent people here will prefer Stalin. They are not represented by our Foreign Office or by the American State Department, and the question which I would ask the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, is this: Are our Foreign Office and the United States State Department more anxious to avoid revolution

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than to avoid Fascism? Undoubtedly French officers are more afraid of revolution. Undoubtedly the Catholic Church is more afraid of revolution. Where we stand should be made clear. It is not that we prefer Bolshevism to Fascism, but that we intend to see that our enemies are smashed, and that Right Wing pseudo-Governments have not armed forces to compel their people to submit to their authority. Let us face the facts. There are some people here who would rather that Russia did the lighting and that we did not expend our strength until the settlement. There are very few of them now in this country, but there are far more of them abroad, where they have not been through the terrible crisis which we have passed through successfully.
Now let me turn to the military side of the North-West Africa question. There too we have people who are anxious to preserve Italy, France and Spain, and who have the fear of revolution strongly in their minds. We have in fact two driving forces compelling these people, whether they be French or Italians or Spaniards, to look at this problem from a different angle from ourselves. Why are the Italian capital ships all preserved and kept in their harbours? I think we know the reason: the Italians, hope that when the Peace Conference comes they will have counters which will amount to something. Exactly the same thing applies to all the minor Governments. They all say: "Give us weapons to use to preserve our order; give us bargaining counters at the Peace Conference." That seems to them a natural aspiration, and a more profitable aspiration than taking an active part in defeating the enemy. "Let us leave the defeat of the enemy to the Russians, the English and the Americans," they say, "but let us preserve our bargaining counters." That must be borne in mind when we are considering to whom we are to give these arms.
Then take our First Army in North-West Africa. We are all agreed that it is an impressive example of successful organization, but an increasing number of people are inclined to think that the organization is overdone. We are told that there is only one man in the front line for every seven who are working behind the line. I do not know, but it strikes me as a remarkably high figure. I am quite certain that neither the Japanese
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nor the Russians require the enormous number behind the lines that we do. It seems to me that in that First Army we have too much organization and too few fighters. Are all these things really necessary? We hear that they are all doing themselves very well—bread and beer, and canteens and libraries, and welfare and entertainments. The War Office take a pride in doing it thoroughly. But that is not fighting. It is all very well for an army of occupation, it is all very well for trench warfare, such as we had in the greater part of the last war. But it is not much use for a mobile war. In the South African war—and many of your Lordships took part in that—you will remember we did pretty well on biscuits and bully for two years, and we were none the worse for it.
I cannot help thinking that the evolution of civilization has a bit overdone the necessities of an Army. At the time of Marlborough we moved an Army across Europe from the Low Countries to Blenheim without any train at all, living on the country, and it was a successful move. And I am not at all certain that, although now in North-West Africa the Army is able to move with much greater speed, it may not, possibly, be moving with less efficiency. Somebody once wrote to me—I think it was from Cairo, but it would apply equally well to Algiers—saying that Cairo was Capua without the excuse of Cannae, and I think we want to see that there is less Capua and more Cannae. Do your Lordships remember that in the Napoleonic Wars we had one of those failing expeditions, on a smaller scale but rather similar, to the Low Countries? It did not come off.
"The Earl of Chatham with his sword drawn
Stood waiting for Sir Richard Strachan.
Sir Richard, longing to be at 'em,
Stood waiting for the Earl of Chatham."
I think it has its parallel to-day, and that parallel may, I fear, lead not to the failure of those days of course—we are hardly likely to be driven out—but if we go on waiting much longer it will be too late to take Bizerta and in time to invade Europe this year. I want us to invade Europe this year. Every member of your Lordships' House wants to bear a hand in the fighting on land to help the Russians. We cannot let another year go and say it is going to be next year. Self-respect will not allow it. Delay may even be dangerous.

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It is by no means sure that the German machine is broken yet.
For heaven's sake, if the military have come to the conclusion that they cannot take Bizerta by the 1st June, or whatever it is, then draw stumps and start somewhere else. There are plenty of other places. One of the things I do not like to-day is this exaggeration of the difficulties. We have been told that there are now 250,000 German troops in North-West Africa. I do not believe it for a moment. Why are we told that? We were told before the war started that one air raid on London would cause 200,000 casualties. Why were these stories spread? They were spread in the first place in order to prevent us going to war. Exaggeration is very easy—it is merely an estimate. Now we have been told that Crete is desperately defended by works everywhere along the coast-line of Crete—the coastline of Crete being just about the size of the coast-line of England. That was one of the stories started. In The Times the other day I observed from Crete itself information that nothing had been done at all to defend Crete.
Well, there are other places to go to. Naturally I have a love for Lemnos, but best of all is the Russian Front itself. Is it quite impossible after two years that we should be able to move troops up through Persia and Iraq to help the Russians at Rostov, in the Taman Peninsula and the Crimea? Your Lordships know that we have at the present time two million troops in India. That road that they talked of two years ago up through Baluchistan ought to have been made ere this, and the railway communications through Tabriz are surely finished by now. If you cannot invade Italy, either because you cannot take Tunis or because you do not want to, there are plenty of other places where we could be of even more use. If I had my choice, I would see the British Army fighting beside the Russian Army, and adding to their battle standards the names of Stalingrad, Kharkov, and Poltava. I would see another Inkerman and the Guards showing that they are better men than the German S.S. troops. This is not a question of North-West Africa, although I have tacked it on to the situation there. This is a question of whether we are going to play a full part in this war, by helping the people who die fighting, by helping
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them although they are Bolsheviks, and by complete indifference as to the result, so long as we smash Nazi and Fascist power. I beg to move.
LORD BEAVERBROOK: My Lords, I am very glad to get the opportunity of following my noble friend Lord Wedgwood. He is fearless in his criticisms, and he is always warm and generous in his praise. But it is that portion of his speech which he has tacked on that I am hoping to discuss with you rather than the main portion of his very powerful speech. On the North African issues I am glad he has spoken. I think he has got courage in speaking out, and much that he has said finds some response from me, although I may not altogether agree—I do not agree with him at all. I think the conquest of Tunis and Bizerta is not far off and may be achieved in the very near future. But it is a matter of satisfaction to me that he has referred to the Second Front because it is a serious business for a member of the Socialist Party, or a member receiving the Whip of the Socialist Party, to speak of the Second Front. It is almost like using words that are not spoken in your Lordships' House. I am expecting at any moment that the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, will appear here to dissociate his Party from my noble friend's remarks on the Second Front. But it is necessary to discuss the Second Front. It is indeed. It is necessary to discuss it as my noble friend Lord Wedgwood has spoken to-day. The Government should encourage discussion on the subject and should announce their decisions. The Government should tell us now that the Second Front is going to be launched, and they should tell us that preparations are going forward as speedily as possible. It is my belief that it is the intention of the Government to launch a Second Front.
THE EARL OF GLASGOW: Will the noble Lord excuse me for intervening for one moment? What does the noble Lord mean by a Second Front? Surely this country has been a Second Front to Russia ever since Russia came into the war.
LORD BEAVERBROOK: When I discuss the Second Front I mean the same thing as the President of the United States means when he discusses the Second Front.

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I mean the same thing as the Prime Minister means, the same thing as Stalin means, and that meaning is well known to the noble Earl. I believe that the Government do mean to launch a Second Front. There are 3,000 miles of frontier subject to invasion from Petsamo to Biarritz or, as my noble friend Lord Wedgwood would say, from Dan to Beersheba. Consider the advantage of helping Russia. Consider the advantage to us if we make an invasion of Norway or France. At once we bring the U-boat bases on those shores under our authority. The U-boat bases now being used against us become centres from which we can carry on operations; against the enemy. It is an immense advantage. Therefore it is our duty to let the Russians know we are on the way. You should tell them, you should encourage them by that.
Consider the story of the contribution of the United States of America to Great Britain in the last war. That contribution began with an assurance that the United States would come to our aid in France. More than a year passed before United States troops took part in our battle front, and the only encouragement we got from the Americans during all that interval was the song, "The Yanks are coming." But that song was sufficient to lift up our spirits, to keep us in good cheer. That song carried us through the dark days of Amiens. Can we sing our version of "The Yanks are coming" to the Russians? In the dark days which must come to Russia, the shadows that must come to Russia, in the spring of 1943, can we have another version of the same song, "The Yanks ere coming"? Cannot we let them know, here and now, as soon as possible, as soon as may be, that it is our intention to launch a Second Front, and that they may rely confidently and absolutely on the arrival before long of our British troops to aid them in France by drawing off the Germans from the Eastern Front? We knew in those days that the Americans would arrive. We knew it quite well, and we rejoiced in that song. But some noble Lords on the Socialist Benches will not let us sing our version of "The Yanks are coming" this time. They will not let us have it at all. They will probably dissociate themselves from Lord Wedgwood now. I am waiting for the noble Earl to arrive. I am sorry he is not here. I do not quite understand the composition of the Socialist
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Party anyway. I understand Lord Addison, but there are three others here on this Bench who, I understand, are elected by four from the Back Benches.
LORD WINSTER: You are keeping us company.
LORD BEAVERBROOK: I am not keeping you company. Naturally those on the Back Benches have selected for the front line the military. You see them here quite frequently and quite properly; it is the right place for the military. Here is my noble friend Lord Southwood, who changes his uniform very often. Lord Southwood made a speech here a day or two ago. His speech was "Hear, hear" when I was being admonished for having discussed the Second Front. I was surprised, doubly surprised, for it was within my recollection that my noble friend's newspaper had advocated the Second Front very warmly; so I looked it up and found that on July 14 my noble friend's newspaper was declaring:
"Let us now resolve to set up that Second Front as soon as possible after to-morrow."
On July 28 it gave a much more serious admonition:
"If the Government errs because of sluggishness or cowardice we shall criticize."
I am now bound to tell you that I repeat Lord Southwood's speech on the last occasion in relation to these sentiments in his newspaper: Hear, hear—hear, hear!
Let us dedicate ourselves to this purpose of a Second Front. It is not to help Russia. That is not why I seek your approval and your support for the plan I have advocated from this Box now on two or, perhaps, three occasions. It is not to help Russia. It is to beat Germany. That is the main purpose and the principal object of our lives. It is to banish slavery from the world. Is not that the crusade you set out on? Was it not to put an end to slavery, Nazi slavery, that you went to war? What better purpose, what better object, what better opportunity do you want in order to bring slavery to an end than to launch, as soon as may be, that Second Front in support of the Russians who are fighting so gallantly? I am very glad my noble friend Lord Wedgwood gave me the opportunity of saying these few words in support of the Second Front, which I believe is not far off. It is a movement to banish slavery from the world, and that is

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the whole object of this great figure in public life, Lord Wedgwood.
LORD WINSTER: My Lords, apart from the Motion moved by my noble friend Lord Wedgwood, I have been particularly interested in the remarks which have just been made by my noble friend Lord Beaverbrook. He called your Lordships' attention to the fact that three members of my Party sit on the Front Bench who are elected by four members who sit behind them; but your Lordships will have noticed that Lord Beaverbrook sits on our Front Bench without having been elected by anyone but himself.
LORD BEAVERBROOK: I sit here by virtue of my having held office in the Government twice and because I am a Privy Councillor. It is certainly my right, and possibly my duty, to sit on this Bench.
LORD WINSTER: Nobody could welcome my noble friend more than I do. I am glad we have had that explanation, because I understood that Lord Beaverbrook was sitting on our Front Bench by virtue of a lease-lend arrangement between the Daily Herald and the Daily Express. Anything we can do in my Party to assist the noble Lord to show the Daily Express how really to run a Centre of Public Opinion I have no doubt we shall be delighted to do. I join with Lord Beaverbrook in paying a tribute to the warm and generous spirit of my noble friend Lord Wedgwood. I have always noticed his warm championship of the under-dog, but I have also noted that Lord Wedgwood's championship of the under-dog depends upon that dog remaining the under-dog and that at the moment the under-dog shows any signs of becoming the upper-dog nobody attacks him more fiercely than does my noble friend Lord Wedgwood. I gathered from this Motion that Lord Wedgwood objects to the past of certain gentlemen now playing a prominent part in North African affairs. I deplore it too. But my noble friend also has a past. My noble friend once fell so low as to be in charge of the Duchy of Lancaster in a Labour Government.
LORD WEDGWOOD: A very good experience.
LORD WINSTER: A good experience, but one which might possibly justify certain
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criticisms and comments at the present moment. But, like my noble friend, I also was perturbed and disturbed by certain things which took place after we landed in North Africa. I am content to think that what took place then was very largely a matter of military necessity, and I would not like to join in any criticism of General Eisenhower for the steps that he took in face of a very serious military emergency. But I do feel at this moment, whatever may have been our feelings in the past about events in North Africa, that things look better now, and we have had, in the last day or two, indications that General Giraud and General de Gaulle are prepared to meet and that there are prospects of their coming to terms. If that is the case, if General Giraud and General de Gaulle are coming together and are apparently prepared to negotiate and to appreciate each other's point of view, this surely is the very last moment at which we ought to have a debate about political affairs in North Africa.
LORD WEDGWOOD: May I ask my noble friend Lord Winster whether he thinks that the coming together of General de Gaulle and General Giraud will do much good to the people of the International Brigade or Spanish prisoners interned in that country?
LORD WINSTER: Yes, I gather that those prisoners have now been set free.
LORD WEDGWOOD: No, they have not.
LORD WINSTER: At all events, I think the intention is to set them free. I have great sympathy with those men, I hope there may be no mistake about that. My heart goes out very much indeed to these men of the International Brigade. I have full sympathy with them, but I should think that at the moment the problem is more one of what to do with them after you have set them free.
LORD WEDGWOOD: They can join the Army.
LORD WINSTER: The objection is not so much to setting them free; the real problem is what you are to do with them after you have given them their liberty. At any rate, I cannot feel that these problems will be in any way set back or vitiated by the prospect of General Giraud

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and General de Gaulle coining to some agreement between themselves, and on that account I feel that perhaps it is unfortunate to be discussing these affairs at this moment. There were two or three words in the speech of my noble friend Lord Wedgwood to which I should like to call attention. I may be under some misapprehension, but I understood that the anti-Jewish laws in North Africa had been abolished. I do not know if I am wrong about that or not. I would gladly submit to correction about it. I was under the impression that I read a little time ago that the laws of racial discrimination in North Africa had been abolished, and I would very much welcome information as to what the position is about these anti-racial laws. As to the arrival of the "Richelieu" in American waters, I have no doubt whatever that French soldiers landing in America and able to go ashore under free conditions gave opportunity for a great deal of talk on the part of those sailors, but we have only Press reports to go on about that. The main fact which I think is of interest, and which is of value to us, is that the "Richelieu" and several other units of the French Navy have arrived in American waters. That I think is a great and significant fact which is of good omen, and not what some sailors may happen to have said when they have got ashore under conditions which I for one hope they are enjoying very much indeed.
I do not know what is meant by the statement that in North Africa we are struggling to preserve what we are ostensibly fighting to destroy. I know of nothing that is happening which would give weight to that statement. I must say also that I think it is deplorable to introduce the name of the American Roman Catholic Archbishop, who is at present visiting North Africa, into a political controversy of this sort. I think that is particularly an unfortunate thing to have done. What is one to make of those statements to which we have listened, completely hearsay statements, about Mr. Murphy and General Weygand having met and having spent their time praying for the restoration of the Roman Catholic Church in France? Really, I do join issue at the introduction at this moment of completely hearsay statements of that sort into a debate in your Lordships' House. What can be the possible value of it? What can such a statement as that do,
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except harm? To repeat statements about there being people here who would prefer that Russia should do the fighting, and that we did not expend our strength until the time for settlement has arrived, is deplorable. How is the cause for which we are fighting advanced by statements of that sort? Then I come to a statement which made a particular impression upon my mind. I hope really I am under a misapprehension upon this and I would gladly give way to Lord Wedgwood if he wishes to correct me. I understood him to ask your Lordships, why are Italian ships preserved and kept in harbour unless it is that at the peace settlement Italy may have certain counters in her possession for bargaining at that peace settlement? Is the implications that we, this country—
LORD WEDGWOOD: The implication is that the Italian Government is keeping them there.
LORD WINSTER: It may have served a purpose in clearing up that point, but as the statement was made I feel it was highly ambiguous. We know that statements have been made about refraining from bombing Rome for sinister and nefarious reasons, and the inference-might have been drawn that these ships were left alone for some sinister purpose. Then there was the statement that the First Army are doing themselves well, that they have all the bread and beer they want and generally having a good time, but are not fighting. I wrote the words down—"are having a good time, but not fighting." I do deplore statements of that sort when all of us have rejoiced to see the way the Army after its experience at Dunkirk has fought and trained itself back into the service that it is to-day. I do indeed think it is deplorable that anybody should make a statement of that sort.
LORD WEDGWOOD: I do not know what you wrote down, but I never said it. You seem to have misinterpreted my speech. I said there was too much organization and too little fighting.
LORD WINSTER: It is never my wish to misinterpret anybody at all, and no one would apologize more sincerely for doing so, but certainly the implication was that the First Army was doing itself well but was not fighting. I think that is a deplorable statement to make. I will not refer at length to other points, but I

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gather that the noble Lord wishes us to have no organization of supplies and thinks that the Army could live upon the country. I think that is rather dangerous ground to get upon. I thought that was the very thing for which we reproached the Germans. They live upon the countries through which they pass. Then there was the reference to Bizerta and the statement that there are plenty of other places to go to. The noble Lord's heart apparently yearns after Lemnos. What military purpose is served by abandoning our attack against Bizerta and suddenly going to Lemnos, I do not know. What is the idea? What is it you do through Lemnos? That was followed by the statement "If you cannot invade Italy, because you cannot take Tunis"—these are the significant words—"or do not want to." What is this insinuation? That our Expeditionary Force in Tunisia is a feint, or that we are pulling our punch "because you cannot take Tunis or do not want to"? What is the suggestion? That the whole Expeditionary Force in Tunisia is engaged in a sham fight and that we really do not want to take Tunis at all?
I feel that perhaps I have kept your Lordships too long with my intervention, but really great as is the respect and in fact the affection which I bear for my noble friend Lord Wedgwood, I cannot see what purpose is served by a speech of that nature which makes insinuation after insinuation and which is based, as to nine-tenths of it, upon hearsay. What purpose can be served at this moment when our Forces are in the position they: are in and when in North Africa there are prospects of arriving at the situation and the understanding which we should like to see reached? I do most deeply deplore the remarks made by my noble friend, and I should be reluctant to feel that such remarks might be taken as in any way representative of myself or some of my friends. In what has been said about the Second Front I join with my noble friend Lord Beaverbrook in hoping that the moment may soon arise when the War Cabinet feel that we are at last able to go to the assistance of Russia. Nobody would join more sincerely than I in hoping with my noble friend Lord Beaverbrook that energy and urgency may be shown in respect of that objective.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT CRANBORNE): My Lords, those of your Lordships who are familiar with the writing of "Beachcomber" in the Daily Express may perhaps remember his model Election address for Parliamentary candidates—"I will lash out in every direction and clear up this mess." That seems to me not an unfair description of the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood's approach to foreign affairs. His practice seems to be to select some problem which appears to be of special delicacy, to say to himself,. "What really provocative thing can I say about it?" and then to shout it in loud and ringing tones in your Lordships' House. From this the noble Lord appears to derive considerable satisfaction. I suspect—though perhaps wrongly—that he regards himself as the lineal descendant of Pym and Hampden. He says: "They always said what was in their minds, and so do I." It all depends on what is in your mind, and I am not sure that Pym and Hampden would approve everything said by the noble Lord this afternoon.
At any rate, that seems to be the procedure he has adopted on this occasion. He has said to himself: "What is the most delicate problem at the moment? What is the one that needs the most caution, the most patience and the most wisdom?" And he has come to the absolutely correct conclusion that it is the difficult political and military situation in North Africa. Having decided on his theme, he has sat down and composed the speech to which your Lordships have listened this afternoon. Indeed, he has not contented himself merely with North Africa. He has thrown his net even wider. He has managed to sandwich into his remarks references to the constitutional future of Spain and Portugal, some rather offensive remarks about the American President's personal representative in North Africa, Mr. Murphy, references to a Second Front, and a violent attack on the Catholic Church. In its way I think that the speech was one of the noble Lord's masterpieces. It was calculated to cause the maximum of irritation in France, the United States, Spain, Portugal and Russia. That is no mean performance for a speech that lasted very little more than 25 minutes.
I do not intend to follow the noble Lord in his Cook's tour of Southern

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Europe, and I had not intended to pursue him still further to Russia, though in view of the noble Lord's speech I shall be obliged to say a few words on that subject. The affairs of Spain are a matter for the Spanish people, and they will not thank us for meddling with them. The same applies to the visit of Archbishop Spellman to Rome. I should have thought it very natural that a Catholic Archbishop visiting Europe and North Africa should take the opportunity of paying his respects to the Vatican, and I should have thought it both unnecessary and unfortunate to read into the visit the sinister implications which the noble Lord did this afternoon. Nor do I think it very helpful to make the suggestion that the Catholic Church is an implacable enemy of the cause for which we are fighting at a time when hundreds of thousands of Catholics are fighting in the Allied ranks.
However, my Lords, I do not intend to follow my noble friend Lord Wedgwood further into these rather regrettable topics. I propose to devote myself so far as I can—for the discussion has ranged somewhat widely—to the main subject of the debate, the political and military situation in North Africa. I do not think it is either necessary or desirable from the operational point of view to say very much about the military situation. The noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, has, in his remarks, contrived to draw what I thought was a very surprising analogy between Generals Alexander and Montgomery and Lord Chatham and Sir Richard Strachan. To those of us who have watched the recent achievements of these brilliant officers, it is an analogy which does not seem to make very much sense. The noble Lord has sought to prove, as I understood him, that the Eighth Army and the First Army are moving too slowly. He said, I believe, that they had too much organization and too little fighting.
LORD WEDGWOOD: I did not say anything about the Eighth Army.
VISCOUNT CRAN BORNE: I am obliged. It would certainly have been a very queer observation. So far as the First Army is concerned, I think that the noble Lord has already been answered by Lord Winster and that it is not necessary for me to say any more. The explanation for the present delay—because there is
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undoubtedly rather more delay than some of us possibly would wish—is a very much simpler one than that which the noble Lord has put forward. Perhaps the main lesson we should have learnt in this war is that there is nothing so dangerous as premature attack. We have had examples of it more than once in Libya where attacks have been delivered before complete preparations had been made. And we have had one famous example to the contrary—the battle of El Alamein. Those in command in North Africa know this just as well as anyone else, and they are steadily and methodically making their preparations. To urge them to strike before they are ready is really to do no service to this country or to Russia or to anyone else. I recognize the impatience of the noble Lord, which is perhaps shared by other people in this country. That impatience was equally evident before the battle of El Alamein. I remember evidences of it even in your Lordships' House. I do hope that it will not be suggested from here that the Eighth Army or the First Army or General Alexander or General Montgomery are dillying and dallying. The House should remember that this North African campaign fulfils—as Lord Beaverbrook I think has said to-day—a very important purpose. The Prime Minister himself has described it as a springboard, and the completion of this springboard is a vital precursor to further operations, which we all hope are coming. Do not let us, by anything we say here, encourage the premature opening of an attack which might be a failure because it was made too soon. If that happens, instead of gaining time we should lose time.
The noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, in his speech, reverted to the topic of a Second Front in Europe. He finds opportunity for raising this question on a Motion on almost any subject. I confidently expect to find him raising it tomorrow in dealing with his Motion on agricultural cottages.
LORD BEAVERBROOK: Not tomorrow.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: And I may say, my Lords, that I am arranging for the Government spokesman to be suitably briefed for the occasion.
LORD BEAVERBROOK: I promise a holiday.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: I do assure the noble Lord that I recognize how strong his feelings are on this subject, but I suggest that it is not wise on his part so constantly to revert to it. No doubt the expression "Second Front" is in itself harmless, and, perhaps, convenient. But if the impression is given in Russia, however unintentionally, that Britain and the United States are doing nothing while Russia is doing everything—and that is the impression which was created at any rate in my mind by the noble Lord's speech to-day—the result would be most unfortunate. Such an impression, moreover, would not be fair to our own fighting men. Everybody, I think, agrees that the main burden of the land fighting is at present being borne by Russia, and we have seen with admiration the magnificent display of endurance which the Russian Armies have put up during recent months. But equally, I think, everybody should agree that the lion's share of the war on the sea and in the air is being shouldered by us and by the United States.
Our air offensive against Germany, which reached its peak last week, inaugurated a new era in aerial attack, and the direct damage which was done to German production was terrific. Tanks and aeroplanes were destroyed by those attacks just as surely as though they had been destroyed by the Russian Armies on the Eastern Front. I should have liked to have seen—or rather I should not have liked to have seen—the length of the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook's face, when he was Minister of Production, if the Germans had launched against us an air attack on the scale of that which we have launched against them in this last month. What I have said about the war in the air is equally true with regard to the war at sea. Unless we had command of the sea, which we have to-day, Germany would be able to import from the Far East and elsewhere essential materials of which she is at present short, and the situation in Russia would be very much more difficult than it is at the present time. Yet there was nothing about this in the noble Lord's speech to-day. We know what will happen in regard to that speech. It will be reprinted in a paper with which, I understand, the noble Lord has no longer any direct connexion.
LORD BEAVERBROOK: I own it.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: The noble Lord owns it. Well, anyway, it may be expected to have a kindly feeling for him. His speech will also be printed in extenso in the Russian Press and a very wrong impression may be derived from it. I beg the noble Lord to allow me to reassure him. Do not let him be under any misapprehension; this question of a Second Front or campaign, or whatever you like to call it, in Europe, is equally in the minds of the Prime Minister and President Roosevelt and all those distinguished officers responsible for our strategy. Our policy in this respect was made perfectly clear after the Casablanca Conference. I beg the noble Lord, therefore, to leave these matters to those whose responsibility they are, both at home and on the spot, and not to raise unfounded suspicions in the minds of the Russian people. To do that I think could only tend to impair the good relations between the two countries, to which I know he is so deeply and sincerely attached.
Now, having, I am afraid, rather digressed from the main subject of the debate, I should like to return to the political situation in North Africa. The noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, takes a very gloomy view of the situation in that area. He sees a Fascist behind every bush. But, really, his suspicions are unfounded. All recent evidence, both in the hands of His Majesty's Government and of the public, goes to indicate that the régime in North Africa is moving in exactly the opposite direction. The House will have seen—and the noble Lord himself no doubt will have seen—reports of a remarkable broadcast delivered by General Giraud on March 14 and reprinted in the newspapers here on March 15, in which, among other things, he repudiated the authority of Vichy, reconstituted the democratically-elected Conseils Generaux (municipal councils), and abrogated the anti-Jewish laws. I understood the noble Lord to-day to give the impression that nothing had been done about these anti-Jewish laws.
LORD WEDGWOOD: Yes. I thought that he had only said that he would abrogate them; I did not understand that he had done so.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: A number have been abrogated already, and a number of decrees are being issued almost at once abolishing the rest. I hope that that will relieve the mind of the noble Lord.

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I understand that he remains unconvinced by General Giraud's words; I am afraid that he is not very amenable to facts. But I am certain that the British people as a whole will take a different view, and will recognize that these decisions which have been taken by General Giraud, and which were so warmly welcomed in another place to-day by the Prime Minister, and which have, I understand, the approval of the United States of America, are not those of a Fascist leader.
It may be suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, or by others, that there has been undue delay in the taking of these measures by General Giraud. But we should make a great mistake if we underestimated his difficulties. It is not easy to conduct a house-cleaning when a war is going on on the doorstep. His first aim—quite rightly—was to ensure that no political situation should be created which might prejudice military operations; and that object he achieved. Communications, on which the supplies of the First Army depend, have at no time been interrupted by civil strife, nor has there been at any time the necessity to divert troops to quell internal disturbances in North Africa The second task before General Giraud was to widen the basis of his Government. His Majesty's Government desire to see this, as I think Lord Wedgwood recognizes, just as much as he does. North Africa is not, however, an area which is under our control. The relationship of the British and United States Commanders is not that of an occupying Power towards the local authority of an occupied region. North Africa is French territory, and to attempt to do General Giraud's work for him must only too probably have led to disaster. What we could do, and what the United States, in whose strategic sphere North Africa is, could also do, is to assist the development of events by the exertion of influence. This is one of the main functions of the Resident Minister, Mr. Macmillan, against whom the noble Lord made an entirely unprovoked and unjustified attack this afternoon.
LORD WEDGWOOD: Not unprovoked.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: As I understand it, from the information in my possession, Mr. Macmillan has, during the short time he has been there, achieved an outstanding success. He has established
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admirable relations with the Americans and with the French, and he has lost no opportunity of impressing upon the French authorities the interest with which the British people are watching the development of events in North Africa. I am glad to say that, as your Lordships have probably noted, there are already definite signs of improvement, and I will give the "unbelieving Thomas" of your Lordships' House—the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood—some examples. Three of the men who were arrested after the murder of Admiral Darlan, although they had helped the Allies both before and after the landing, have now been appointed to important positions in the administration of Algeria. One of them, M. Bringard, is Director-General of Security Services. The Information Services, formerly under the control of M. Rigaud, have been taken over by General Chambe, against whom, as far as I know, there has been no objection raised in any quarter. A former strong supporter of Vichy, the Prefect of Oran, has given place to a man of more solid views, and I understand that the Police Chief of Casablanca has also been replaced. To-day there is news that the resignation of General Bergeret and M. Rigaud has been accepted. These are just examples of the steady transformation which has been going on all the time, although the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, does not appear to see what has been going on before his eyes.
I recognize that there has been a great deal of understandable anxiety, which was voiced by the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, this afternoon, as to the position of political internees; and indeed until these people are generally released none of us can accept the situation as satisfactory. According to figures which have been supplied by the French authorities, and which are believed to be accurate, about 1,300 of these people have been released out of a total, on November 8, of about 7,000. I quote those figures because I think that the noble Lord himself gave a figure of 20,000 International Brigadiers still in internment.
LORD WEDGWOOD: I think it was 3,000 members of the International Brigade and 20,000 Spanish Republicans.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: I understand that the total number was 7,000, and that of those 1,300 have now been

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released. The French authorities have told us that the number who were imprisoned for their Allied sympathies was at no time large, and that all of these have now been released. We are told that the remainder consist of Spanish Republican refugees and men of other nationalities, the great majority of whom were members of the International Brigade. It is to these, as I understand it, that the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, has specially directed the attention of your Lordships. I fully appreciate his preoccupation with their situation, and all of us would wish to see them released; but, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Winster, pointed out, we must realize that they present a practical problem of some difficulty. What is to be done with them? It is a real problem. The French authorities are unwilling to release them on a large scale until places are found for them to go to, or there is work for them to do; and indeed merely to throw them on the streets of Algiers or elsewhere would be a very poor solution even from their own point of view.
The Governments immediately concerned are examining urgently this thorny problem. It is not one which affects His Majesty's Government alone, though they are doing their very best to help. It would be idle to ignore the difficulties, but I understand—and I have been making careful inquiries into this—that it is now hoped that it will not be long before the difficulties are settled and these unfortunate people released. I would add one word. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, referred to conditions in the camps. It may be useful if I give him some information about this. Representatives of the Joint Commission on Political Internees have recently completed a tour of visits which took them to four of the most important camps, where over 1,200 of the internees are living. They have reported favourably on the conditions in these four camps. I should add that they intend to visit, at the earliest opportunity, all the other camps. The Commission also reported that the medical examination of about 300 internees who expressed themselves willing to join the British Pioneer Corps was proceeding, and that it was hoped that those who had passed the examination would join the Corps within a few days. It will be seen, therefore, that with regard to this intractable
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problem also some advance is being made.
Perhaps I may be allowed, in conclusion, to return from these matters of comparative detail to the general situation. No doubt there are among the supporters of General Giraud, as among the supporters of General de Gaulle, some men of strong Right Wing views, but there are also men of the Centre and of the Left. The admirable thing in both cases is that Frenchmen of widely differing political complexions are finding it possible to work together in close collaboration for the defeat of the common enemy. As I said just now, your Lordships should make no mistake. The task of General Giraud is not an easy one, and it has never been an easy one since he arrived in North Africa. He came to a territory which was rent with violent divisions of opinion and contained all the elements of a civil war. He found an administrative machine formed by people in many cases of very different views from himself, and that is the machine which he had to work. He has shown patience, he has shown wisdom, and to-day at last there are evident signs that he feels strong enough to widen the basis of his Government and to weed out untrustworthy elements.
The noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood, asked, What is the aim of His Majesty's Government and of the United States Government in North Africa? Are they more anxious to avoid Fascism or revolution? The answer is that they are anxious to avoid both. The policy of His Majesty's Government and of the United States administration in North Africa has been stated again and again: it is to unite all groups of Frenchmen in opposition to the common enemy, so as to enable France at the end of the war to choose her own Government. That aim has unfortunately not yet been achieved, though this week's news surely brings it somewhat nearer. One thing is certain. Nothing is more likely to hinder this most desirable process than constant meddling interference from our side, and especially such insulting reflections on the integrity and patriotism of Frenchmen as the noble Lord made in his speech this afternoon. That can only tend to infuriate all sections alike. If Frenchmen want to fight Hitler, for heaven's sake let us help them do so and not jeer and gibe at them the whole time. No great nation of modern times has suffered more cruel wounds to her proudest

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feelings than France has suffered in this war. Her Armies have been defeated, her territories have been occupied. It is not for us who have had a happier fate to keep those wounds open. On the contrary, we should do everything we can to heal them. At Bir Hakeim, in the deserts of the Sahara and now in Tunisia, a notable start has been made. Let us not now hinder the development of this process; let us assist it, in order that when the war is over, France may again take her rightful place in the councils of the world.
LORD WEDGWOOD: My Lords, your Lordships all like wit, but may I say with Canning, "Save, oh! save me from a candid friend." I do not know whether Lord Winster came down here intending to make that speech, but if he did I wish that he had learnt shorthand so as to take down my words with something like accuracy. Now I turn to the speech of the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, which I thought admirable. I think the apologia pro vita mea which I must make is this, that I make such an invaluable whipping boy. Of course my speeches do not do any harm because they are reported, I hope, in the Left Press of this country, with the immense approval of the Left people. They are reported, I hope, in Russia, where they will meet with unanimous approval, and they are reported, I expect in this case, in America also, where they may do a lot of good. They cannot do any harm because they are always replied to by the Government. Think what a useful man I am. Take Harold Macmillan. Harold Macmillan stood beside me to sing "Rule Britannia" on a famous occasion when Chamberlain walked out. He will do much better work in future for knowing he has been criticized, and possibly he may even be induced to visit one of these camps and see these people for himself. He ought to have done it long ago.
Then as to the indignation of the French population at hearing themselves criticized for having French Fascist leaders, it may have a very good effect
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upon them. It may even induce them to get into their Administration some members of the Popular Front. The Administration at present has shown the greatest reluctance. If they had not known this debate was coming on, do you think they would have made those changes? Not a bit of it. The invaluable work done by publicity in this country for Left Wing propaganda has been the saving of the situation over and over again, and, far from regretting my speech to-day, and far from the noble Viscount regretting it, he should congratulate himself that these suspicions, based on hearsay, have been stated in public in your Lordships' House, because it is much better that they should be stated in public and replied to in public—if they can be—than that they should continue to go sotto voce through all circles and do infinitely more harm. I can assure your Lordships I shall continue to be an enfant terrible. Far from my speech having been the latest example of Wedgwoodiana, it may be a faint prelude to future improvement. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (GOV ERNORS ALLOWANCES AND PRIVILEGES) (AMENDMENT) ORDER, 1943.
Report from the India and Burma Orders Committee, That they have examined the Draft Order as required by the Standing Orders of the House; that in their opinion the Order raises important questions of policy and principle; that the Order is founded on precedent; that in the opinion of the Committee the Order can be passed by the House without special attention; and that no further inquiry is necessary before the House proceeds to a decision on the Resolution to approve the said Order.
Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
House adjourned.