Sitting of 14 July 1943

Preamble
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  ENGLISH LANGUAGE (SIMPLIFIED SPELLING)
  Mr. David Grenfellasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has considered the communications from Allied Governments in London on the subject of simplified writing and spelling as a means of extending proficiency on the part of allied nationals who desire to learn and to use the English language for fuller co-operation in war and peace; whether he has consulted the President of the Board of Education on the matter; and how far he is in agreement with the proposal?
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): I have made careful inquiries, but I find that neither my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education nor I have any record of such a communication.
  Mr. Grenfell: Has the right hon. Gentleman received a communication asking that English should be used as an auxiliary language for international intercourse?
  Mr. Eden: I cannot find the communication, but I should be heartily in sympathy with that expression of opinion.
  Mr. Grenfell: If the right hon. Gentleman is heartily in sympathy with the use of English, would he express his sympathy with those who desire to make English a little easier for those who wish to use it as an auxiliary language?
  Mr. Eden: That seems to me almost to enter into the domain of the President of the Board of Education.
  Mr. Ivor Thomas: As foreigners learn our language so much more easily than
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  we seem to learn theirs, does not that suggest that the Question is based on a false assumption?
  Commander Locker-Lampson: Can the right hon. Gentleman see that the Labour Party issue some of their pronouncements in simplified English?

  UNITED NATIONS FOOD CONFERENCE
  Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, at the Hot Springs Conference, the fact that Great Britain had parted with most of her foreign investments, that her purchasing power through invisible exports was disseminated, that Great Britain was far from being self-supporting in food and raw materials and that we stood alone for a year, was made plain?
  Mr. Eden: These questions were not within the scope of the Food Conference, which was concerned with methods of improving nutrition and producing foodstuffs and other agricultural products adequate to world requirements.
  Sir W. Smithers: Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that under the Atlantic Charter and at further meetings of the Hot Springs Conference the Government will do all in their power to see that we have a fair share in world trade after the war, which is so vital to this country and the world?
  Mr. Eden: Certainly, but this Conference was not primarily concerned with that problem.

  PRINCE PAUL OF YUGOSLAVIA
  Captain Cunningham-Reidasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the political prisoner Prince Paul of Yugoslavia has been allowed to leave Kenya and live in South Africa?
  Mr. Eden: Prince Paul was, with the agreement of the Union Government, removed to South Africa on medical grounds. His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and the Union Government were advised by the doctors attending him that his health would suffer serious and permanent injury if he remained in Kenya.
  Captain Cunningham-Reid: At whose original request did this man go from Kenya to South Africa, and if it was at the request of this man himself, since when have political prisoners, especially such traitorous ones as this, been allowed at their own request to go to another country?
  Commander Locker-Lampson: I wish to protest against this abuse of Parliamentary time.

  CONSULAR OFFICERS (ACTING ALLOWANCES)
  Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Vice-Consuls and Consuls, filling posts as Consuls and Consuls-General, respectively, receive any extra pay or allowances above the emoluments of their substantive rank; if so, what, and with effect from what date?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir. A consular officer acting at a post above his rank draws, for the whole period during which he is in charge, an acting allowance additional to his salary of £225 a year at a Consulate or £337 10s. at a Consulate-General, provided that he does not receive in salary and acting allowance more than the minimum salary of the rank of the post in question. These acting allowances are not, however, payable in cases where the titular officer is on leave and a member of his own staff takes charge. In addition, in all cases acting officers draw the representation allowance appropriate to the post they fill, except on rare occasions when the allowance is required by the titular officer if he is absent on public duty.

  WAR CRIMES (UNITED NATIONS COMMISSION)
  Sir Henry Morris-Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Allied Commission on War Crimes is now fully constituted; whether a British representative has been appointed; and what steps this Commission is taking to declare specifically the crimes committed and the names of the persons who have committed them?
  Mr. Eden: As I stated in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) on 30th June,
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  detailed discussions with a view to the early establishment of the Commission are proceeding. Sir Cecil Hurst has agreed to serve as the British representative on the Commission.
  Sir H. Morris-Jones: Is there not sufficient evidence against some of the perpetrators of some of the worst crimes now, and if steps are not taken before the end of the war to declare them as criminals may not there be difficulty in securing their extradition from neutral countries?
  Mr. Eden: The question of extradition is a different one from the one I am dealing with now.

  MALAY AND SHAN STATES (JAPAN AND SIAM)
  Squadron-Leader Donnerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the cession by the Prime Minister of Japan of four Malay States and two of the Shan States to Siam in gratitude for that country's aid to Japan; and whether he has any statement to make?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir. I need hardly say that His Majesty's Government do not recognise these transfers of territories, which form part of the British Commonwealth and Empire. Nor do they regard them as in any way permanent, since it is the fixed intention of ourselves and our Allies to drive the Japanese from these regions.
  Mr. Hannah: Have our Government ever recognised Mussolini's annexation of British Somaliland?
  Mr. Eden: No, Sir; so far as I am aware he has not got it.

  FRENCH NORTH AFRICA (PRESS CORRESPONDENTS)
  Mr. Astorasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that all newspaper correspondents, other than war correspondents, have been instructed to leave French North Africa after one month's stay; and whether, in view of the importance of Parliament and the public having up-to-date independent news regarding political conditions and developments in that region, he will endeavour to get this decision reconsidered?
  Mr. Eden: Allied Force Headquarters in North Africa agreed at the end of May to receive a number of additional Press correspondents in the North African theatre to cover political as distinct from military matters. It was stipulated at the time that this agreement was subject to certain conditions being observed by the correspondents, one of which was that they should not stay in the North African theatre for longer than a month. In regard to the second part of the Question, I fear that as long as. North Africa is an important base for military operations certain restrictions are unavoidable. I am, however, in communication with the Resident Minister at Allied Force Headquarters on the subject.
  Mr. Astor: If a Question is put down in a week's time, does my right hon. Friend think he can give a favourable answer, because the gravest misgiving has been caused by this time limit, as so many people in the country are under the impression that something is happening which people want to hide?
  Mr. Eden: This time limit, as the hon. Member calls it, was fixed when the correspondents went out. Everybody knew all about it. I am in communication with my right hon. Friend, but I cannot tell when I shall get a reply.
  Mr. Shinwell: Has this been attributable in any sense to representations made by the French political authorities?
  Mr. Eden: I am afraid I do not know; I should not have thought so. I think this was an arrangement made when the correspondents first went out. It might very easily, be revised.
  Sir Herbert Williams: Is it not a fact that the best accounts that we have had of the Sicilian operations have come from the German broadcasts, and cannot we be as well served?
  Mr. Eden: These are not military correspondents. They are political correspondents.
  Mr. Gallacher: Is the Foreign Secretary aware that by the time Frank Pitcairn, the "Daily Worker" representative, got there he was one day in North Africa when he was told that his month was up?
  Mr. Eden: This is the first I have heard of this. I was not aware that the calendar had thus been arranged.
  Sir Richard Acland: As political events of first-class importance are taking place in North Africa, if one or two Members wished to see the right hon. Gentleman about this matter, would he see them?
  Mr. Eden: I am ready to see Members on this or any other matter at this or any other time.
  Mr. De la Bère: Is it not necessary to separate the true from the false and the real from the unreal?

  FRENCH COMMITTEE OF NATIONAL LIBERATION
  Mr. Martinasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether recognition of the French Committee of National Liberation by His Majesty's Government has now taken place; and whether the services of the Government are always available to the Committee for the purpose of avoiding the development of friction amongst Frenchmen allied to the United Nations and securing recognition by all our Allies of this Committee?
  Mr. Eden: I would refer my hon. Friend to the Prime Minister's statements in the House of 8th June and 1st July in which he welcomed the establishment of the French Committee of National Liberation as the single and sole authority over all Frenchmen seeking to free France from the German yoke and said that our dealings, financial and otherwise, would henceforward be with this Committee as a whole. In practice, His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom are now treating with this Committee on all matters of common concern relating to French territories which acknowledge its authority and affecting French forces maintained in British territory. No decision has yet been taken as to the precise degree of formal recognition which His Majesty's Government may accord to the Committee. In regard to the second part of the Question, His Majesty's Government have consistently encouraged the union of all Frenchmen in the fight against the Axis and for the liberation of France, and their services are always available to the Committee for this purpose.
  Mr. Martin: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask whether His Majesty's Government

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  look with sympathy and good will on this Committee, and, if so, will they speed up recognition as much as they can; and, further, have these conversations with M. Massigli on this subject been fruitful and useful?
  Mr. Eden: As regards the first part of the question, I can say that certainly His Majesty's Government look with sympathy and good will on this Committee and would like to see its authority steadily grow and become stronger. As regards the conversations with M. Massigli, I have been glad to welcome this tried friend of Anglo-French understanding to this country. Our conversations have been mainly concerned up to date with French affairs in this country and certain problems in Syria.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Airman's Death, Canada
    Mr. Walter Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Air whether any action has been taken against the persons responsible for the death, through the effects of a toxoid inoculation, of a member of the Royal Air Force serving with a training unit in Canada?
    The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): A report on this casualty has been called for from Canada, but has not yet been received. When it comes, I will communicate with the hon. Member.

    Air Raids (Anti-Aircraft Guns)
    Colonel Sir A. Lambert Wardasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that, in the recent raid on a town, of which he has been informed, anti-aircraft guns did not open fire until the raid had been in progress for some considerable time; and, in view of this, whether he will take steps to improve the lialson between Fighter Command and the anti-aircraft guns?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The guns were in action within our minutes of the beginning of the attack. The delay was due not to inadequate liaison between Fighter Command and the anti-aircraft guns but to the need for extreme care owing to the presence of our own aircraft in the area.
    Mr. Muff: Is my right hon. Friend taking any steps to see that there is co-operation between the Air Ministry and the sounding of the air-raid warning?
    Sir A. Sinclair: No, Sir, I do not think that co-operation could be closer; but there is a real difficulty when hostile aircraft come over an area where our own friendly aircraft are operating, more particularly when they do so in small numbers.
    Sir A. Lambert Ward: Would it not be advisable to instruct our own aircraft not to come in over a city like Hull, which is constantly in danger of enemy raids, so that the guns could at once open fire on enemy aircraft?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I do not think my hon. and gallant Friend realises how large is the area to be protected and that there must be large numbers of aircraft operating up and down such an important part of the coast as the Hull area.

    Officers (Promotion)
    Wing - Commander Hulbertasked the Secretary of State for Air whether the present system of promotion of officers by commands, instead of centrally by the Air Ministry, has proved satisfactory?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The powers of commands to promote officers are limited to the grant of acting rank, up to that of wing-commander, to fill vacancies in approved establishments, in the absence or pending the posting of officers of the appropriate substantive or temporary ranks.
    Mr. Boothby: Does my right hon. Friend not think that this system tends to a certain rigidity and may prevent an interchange of officers between commands where it might be desirable?
    Sir A. Sinclair: No, Sir, I do not think that that is so. The system applies only to acting rank, and if there should be another officer of the appropriate rank who was qualified for that post he would be removed from another command to that post under this arrangement.
    Wing-Commander James: Does my right hon. Friend not consider that the present decentralisation is desirable?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Yes, Sir, decentralisation is very useful.

    Balloon Command (1939–43 Star)
    Wing-Commander Hulbertasked the Secretary of State for Air whether personnel who have served in operational squadrons of Balloon Command, continuously, since 3rd September, 1939, will receive the 1939–43 Star?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend to await the statement which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister proposes to make before the Houses rises.
    Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Would my right hon. Friend give an assurance that everybody who has had a uniform of any sort whatever will have all the decorations that are available?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The Prime Minister will deal with that point.

    "Royal Air Force Journal" (Editor)
    Commander Bowerasked the Secretary of State for Air by whom and on what grounds the editor of the "Royal Air Force Journal" was selected?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The editor of the "Royal Air Force Journal" was selected in October, 1942, under my authority by the appropriate branch of my Department. As for the second part of the Question, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Everton (Mr. Kirby) on 18th November last.
    Commander Bower: In view of the fact that this publication is widely read by thousands of our young men and women in the Air Force, would it not have been possible from among the hundreds of literary gentlemen who have joined the Air Force to have selected someone who has not been convicted of publishing indecent matter?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Of course, it would have been possible to select another officer besides the one who was appointed. This one was appointed as long ago as 1942, and since his appointment the paper has prospered and given satisfaction.

    Air Crews (Commissions)
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Secretary of State for Air what proportion in each of the following categories, pilots, observers, navigators and air-bombers, hold commissioned rank?
    Sir A. Sinclair: On 31st March, 1943, the latest date for which figures are available, the percentages of commissioned personnel in the air-crew categories of the Royal Air Force were: Pilots, 56 per cent.; navigator classes (including observers), 37 per cent.; air bomber, 27 per cent.
    Mr. Bellenger: I would ask my right hon. Friend to take into account, when he is considering a greater commissioning of N.C.Os. and air crews, the fact that if N.C.Os. are killed in action, their dependants get a lower rate of pension because they are N.C.Os.
    Sir A. Sinclair: No, Sir. The only rule which could guide me in authorising the commissioning of N.C.Os. would be the interests and efficiency of the Service.
    Mr. Loverseed: Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that in the case of pilots the proportion of those commissioned is altogether too low, bearing in mind that the pilots are captains of aircraft and frequently have to carry that responsibility as sergeants, which causes embarrassment?
    Sir A. Sinclair: No, Sir. There is no limit on the number of commissions which could be given to pilots or to other members of air crews.

    Airwomen (Duties)
    Mr. Loverseedasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that on a Royal Air Force station of which he has been informed, a corporal of the Women's Auxiliary Air Force is employed to supervise the sweeping of floors and other menial tasks performed by skilled tradesmen; and whether he will issue instructions for the practice to be discontinued?
    Sir A. Sinclair: All airwomen at the Royal Air Force station referred to are required once a fortnight to assist, under the supervision of a W.A.A.F. non-commissioned officer, in cleaning the corridors of their hostel. In addition, they are required to attend to their own rooms, but no other duties of this sort are required of them. I consider that these arrangements, which are general throughout the Service under similar circumstances, are economical in man-power and reasonable in themselves, and I see no reason why they should be discontinued.
    Mr. Loverseed: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the supervision of, shall we say, a 40-year-old stockbroker by a 19-year-old woman corporal of the W.A.A.F. is something which might cause much discontent?
    Sir A. Sinclair: That is quite a different point from any which the hon. Member raised in his Question.
    Sir H. Williams: Is not the real test, who is the most skilled at sweeping floors?
    Miss Rathbone: Is not the Question based upon a very unreal view of sex relations?

    Dive-Bombers
    Mr. Purbrickasked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in view of the adoption of the Mustang as a dive-bomber, and the supply of the American Vengeance dive-bomber to the Royal Air Force, which are being operated in Sicily and Burma, respectively, he has now abandoned his former hostility to this form of aircraft for its specialised purpose under proper conditions?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The inference of the hon. Member is not correct. It has always been the view of the Air Staff that effective use can be made of the dive-bomber when operated under favourable conditions.
    Mr. Purbrick: That is rather different from the reply which the right hon. Gentleman gave on previous occasions, when he said that there were no dive-bombers.
    Sir A. Sinclair: I must ask my hon. Friend to look at my speeches before he makes an assertion of that kind. I have frequently stated that the dive-bomber is an arm of opportunity. The opportunity may be rare, but it is a good thing to have the dive-bomber to take advantage of such opportunities.
    Mr. Purbrick: Why, if the Air Ministry have always been in favour of dive-bombers, is it only now, after four years of war, that they are coming into operation?

  AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT, GIBRALTAR (INQUIRY)
  Wing-Commander Hulbertasked the Secretary of State for Air whether a Court of Inquiry is being held into the air-
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  craft accident at Gibraltar in which the Polish Prime Minister, two hon. Member's of this House and others lost their lives?
  Mr. Ivor Thomasasked the Secretary of State for Air the cause of the accident which led to the death of General Sikorski and two hon. Members?
  Sir A. Sinclair: A court of inquiry is being held into this accident, and I hope to make a statement in due course.
  Wing-Commander Hulbert: Is it proposed that the Polish Government should be represented on that inquiry, and will the report be made public?
  Sir A. Sinclair: The answer to the second part of the Question is, "No, Sir," and to the first part, "Yes."
  Captain Cunningham-Reid: Is the right hon. Gentleman able to say at this stage that the accident was not caused by sabotage?
  Sir A. Sinclair: I would say nothing whatever about the causes of the accident until the report of the inquiry is received.

  MESSRS. SHORT BROTHERS
  Commander Bowerasked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether he has now had an opportunity to investigate the complaints made against the management of Short Brothers, R. and B., Limited, by the Swindon branch of the Clerical and Administrative Workers' Union, in a letter dated 3rd July, 1943; and whether he will make a statement?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aircraft Production (Mr. Ben Smith): The majority of the matters referred to in the Question concern terms and conditions of employment. Under an agreement between the trade union concerned and the employers' federation, of which Short Brother's is a member, such matters are settled between the particular firm and its employees, and, failing agreement, are referred to the federation and the union. It is not the policy of my Department to interfere with established industrial agreements, and accordingly the matters raised will be dealt with through the machinery provided under the agreement in question. Two other matters were raised in the letter in question, namely, the issue of a notice which

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  appeared to conflict with the terms of the Essential Work Order and the failure to receive a reply to a letter addressed to the secretary of the company. The first of these matters, which arose out of a misunderstanding, has been adjusted, and my right hon. Friend is informed that the secretary is unable to trace the receipt of the letter in question.

  REQUISITIONED PREMISES, GRAVESEND
  Sir Irving Alberyasked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether his attention has been called to correspondence from the borough engineer and surveyor's department of Gravesend, dating from February, 1942, concerning the condition of certain premises requisitioned by his Department; and what action is being taken?
  Mr. Ben Smith: My right hon. Friend's attention has been drawn to this correspondence. The main point now outstanding concerns the conditions at the premises regarding means of escape in case of fire. Since the premises were requisitioned under the Defence Regulations, statutory restrictions in this respect are inoperative and the matter falls to my department to deal with. It is being investigated and my right hon. Friend will see that action is taken quickly.
  Sir I. Albery: Can my hon. Friend explain the apparent reluctance of his Department to give adequate attention to this matter of correspondence?
  Mr. Smith: I may say, on behalf of my Department, that there is no reluctance to deal with it, but as soon as the matter was brought clearly to our notice investigation started, it is continuing and will be carried out quickly.
  Sir I. Albery: Can my hon. Friend say whether the first time it was brought clearly to his notice was due to my putting this Question on the Order Paper?
  Mr. Smith: No, Sir. There has been correspondence with the town clerk for some long period, but there were difficulties, of which I cannot very well inform the House, in the way of replying. Nevertheless, the inquiry is taking place and will be pursued.

  BUILDING INDUSTRY

    Brickmaking Process
    Mr. Leslieasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works whether he has any knowledge of the process employed by the Scottish Oils, Limited, whereby the refuse of shale bings mixed with 10 per cent. of lime makes excellent bricks?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Hicks): Yes, Sir. Full information of the process is available in my Department. Sand lime bricks made by this process are at present being used on building work in Scotland.
    Mr. Leslie: Is my hon. Friend satisfied as to the durability of these bricks, because so many other bricks in the last 20 years, when just touched by frost, have simply crumbled away?
    Mr. Hicks: They are sand lime bricks, and they compare very favourably with other sand lime bricks.
    Mr. Leslie: That is a matter of opinion.

    Operatives
    Wing-Commander Jamesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works how many building trade operatives are now employed by firms operating Government contracts; and how many operatives are directly employed by the Ministry?
    Mr. Hicks: I am advised that it would not be in the public interest to give the information asked for in the first part of the Question. As regards the second part of the Question, there were 9,537 building trades operatives in the direct employment of the Ministry of Works at 1st June, 1943, of whom 6,208 were employed on the maintenance of the Government and requisitioned premises for which the Ministry of Works is responsible and 3,329 in the Special Repair Service which was created to deal with emergency air raid damage repairs.
    Mr. Holdsworth: On what ground does the Minister decline to give the information asked for in the first part of the Question?
    Mr. Hicks: There are other Departments concerned, and I have consulted these Departments, and they ask me not to give the figures.

    New Methods (Mission to America)
    Mr. Astorasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works whether he will obtain reports on recent developments in the United States of America in pre-fabricated houses and new methods of house building?
    Mr. Hicks: Yes, Sir. My Noble Friend is at present arranging to send a mission consisting of a master builder, an architect and a representative of the operatives to America in the immediate future to study new building methods. I hope to be able to announce the names next week.

    Steel Houses
    Mr. Astorasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works whether he will have a Report made on the steel houses erected after the last war to determine whether they have been satisfactory from all points of view?
    Mr. Hicks: The Committee, which was jointly set up by my right hon. Friends the Minister of Health, the Secretary of State for Scotland and Lord Reith, to report on methods of house construction, has fully covered the various types of steel houses erected after the last war, and its report, which I understand is now being drafted, will shortly be presented to my Noble Friend and my right hon. Friends.
    Mr. Astor: Will the Report be published?
    Mr. Hicks: I think so.
    Sir Francis Fremantle: Will this Committee be working in co-operation with the sub-committee—of which I am a member—of the Ministry of Health which is dealing with exactly the same problem?
    Mr. Hicks: I am amazed to find that you have not already consulted with each other.
    Mr. Mathers: Are we to understand that other types of building will be covered by the Report?
    Mr. Hicks: Yes, Sir.

    Agricultural Workers' Cottages
    Mr. Dribergasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works whether he will consider employing Italian prisoners of war in the building of rural houses?
    Mr. Hicks: Every prisoner of war who can be spared from agricultural work and other work of vital importance at the present time is already being employed on the construction of Prisoner of War Camps and similar work. The number of craftsmen among the prisoners is small and the building of rural cottages in small numbers on a large number of isolated sites is not considered suitable work on which to employ prisoners of war.
    Mr. Driberg: If further large numbers of prisoners arrive in this country, will the matter be reconsidered then?
    Mr. Hicks: I think my hon. Friend had better put that Question down at a later stage.
    Commander Locker-Lampson: Why not employ German prisoners? What is the point of taking them and not using them?
    Mr. Hicks: My answer was, "prisoners of war." I did not specialise.
    Mr. Colegate: Could not Italian prisoners who are in rural areas be employed in repairing farm buildings which are rapidly deteriorating?
    Mr. Wakefieldasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works whether the same facilities to obtain labour and materials for building agricultural cottages will be given to the small builders as those given to the large contractors?
    Mr. Hicks: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Wakefield: While I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for his reply, is he aware that there is a feeling among the small contractors that men would not be directed to them from the large contractors in the same way as men had been taken away from small contractors and directed to the large contractors in recent years? Is he further aware that his answer will give great satisfaction to these small contractors, who play such an important part in the life of the country?
    Mr. Hicks: I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. All the work will be given W.B.A. priority, the materials will be speeded up for their use, and if there are any difficulties in regard to either one or the other, I shall only be too happy to help.
    Mr. Loftus: Will the Minister give every facility for the use of local material and

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    not attempt to impose a cast-iron plan at the centre specifying all the materials to be used?
    Mr. Hicks: We are flexible.

    Costs (Wages and Working Conditions)
    Wing-Commander Jamesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works what is the estimated effect upon the cost of building, for the period between 28th March, 1943, and 2nd June, 1943, of the Orders and Regulations upon wages and working conditions?
    Mr. Hicks: My hon. and gallant Friend refers to the dates of 18th March and 2nd June. As I have already stated, the level of building costs is ascertained by my Ministry periodically. The figure of 80 per cent. quoted by my Noble Friend on 18th March was based on figures as ascertained in December, 1942. Special costings were made at the end of May by my Ministry for the purpose of dealing with the agricultural houses. In order to secure the necessary labour by direction the decision was made that the agricultural houses should rank as part of the Government Building Programme. This brought them within the scope of the Essential Work Order and Uniformity Agreement, which, according to my Department's costed figure, made it necessary to add to per cent. to the tender price. In addition to this there was a rise in wages and a rise in materials which added a further 3 per cent. to the cost. Restriction and zoning of transport has in this period also added to the cost of building generally.
    Wing-Commander James: Is this not an example that the interference of the Government with private enterprise always raises costs?
    Mr. Holdsworth: Could we not have a statement by the Department showing the rise in the cost of building owing to agreements made between the workers, on the one hand, and the Department, on the other?
    Mr. Hicks: In reply to the first question, I would not agree that the zoning of transport is an interference with the economic production of the country, but only in so far as it became necessary; and in reply to the second point about having a statement in regard to the agreement that has been made, I have already answered that question in reply to the
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    hon. Member for West Willesden (Mr. Viant) quite recently.
    Mr. Holdsworth: As the Minister has not given the figures the House has asked for so often, what is the real increase that is due to this agreement? I cannot think of any answer having been given to that.
    Mr. Buchanan: Can the Minister say whether any of the increase is due to the fact that the workers are not giving of their best to the industry?
    Mr. Hicks: It is extremely difficult to give a general sort of answer without implying something else. On the uniformity agreement and the cost to be applied there is no gain to the worker at all. He is sent from one part of the country to another; his travelling faze and the cost of subsistence are paid. Under the Essential Work Order he is directed to the fob and has to be held there until such time as he is relieved by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, and that necessarily adds to the cost.
    Mr. Buchanan: But you have no evidence that the workers are not giving of their best and are not contributing as well as any other workers?
    Mr. Hicks: I have given figures to show that, as far as comparison with pre-war output is concerned, output is higher than it was pre-war.

  COTTAGES, DONIBRISTLE (REQUISITIONING)
  Mr. Gallacherasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has given further consideration to the requisitioning of two cottages near Donibristle; and what steps he proposes to take to see that, in view of the serious housing shortage, these cottages remain available for domestic occupation?
  The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Captain Pilkington): It has been definitely decided not to proceed with the proposed requisitioning of one of the two cottages near Donibristle, and the possibility of leaving the other cottage free for domestic occupation is still under consideration.
  Mr. Gallacher: While thanking the Minister for his reply, may I ask him whether consideration will be favourable?
  Captain Pilkington: I will let the hon. Member know.

  COLONIAL TROOPS (PAY, ALLOWANCES AND PENSIONS)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will give the respective rates of pay for Colonial troops and the scale of dependants' allowances and pensions for Service disability and death?
  The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Colonel Oliver Stanley): The rates of pay for Colonial troops and the scale of dependants' allowances and pensions for Service disability and death vary according to the Colony in which the troops are raised. The position is too complicated to set out within the scope of a Parliamentary answer, but I am having a memorandum on the subject prepared and will send it to my hon. Friend as soon as it is ready.
  Mr. de Rothschild: Will the Minister be good enough to circulate the document for the benefit of other Members who are interested?
  Colonel Stanley: I was hoping to have some talk with my hon. Friend as to the scope of the inquiry. In the present form it will entail a very great deal of labour. Perhaps when I have had a talk with him as to the actual facts he wants, we can make them available to anyone else who wants them.
  Mr. Sorensen: Would not these figures be extremely valuable to all Members of the House and indeed might be useful to the Minister's Department?

  JAMAICA (TRADE UNIONS)
  Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State far the Colonies what further progress has been made respecting trade unionism in Jamaica; what stabilised trade unions now exist and their approximate membership; how far certain trade unions overlap or are in conflict; and what is the cause of dispute and the settlement arrived at in the bakery industry?
  Colonel Stanley: I am in communication with the Governor regarding all these matters, and as soon as I receive his reply I will send my hon. Friend full information. For the moment I can only say that no impediment stands in the way of the formation of further trade unions, that about twenty registered unions now exist
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  of which only a few have any substantial membership; that the most important is a union of a general character whereas the remaining unions relate to specified occupations or trades.
  Mr. Sorensen: Would the Minister reply to the last part of my Question, which deals with the unfortunate dispute, as a result of which a certain amount of damage was done?
  Colonel Stanley: That is one of the matters on which I would prefer to defer a reply until I have full particulars from the Government.
  Squadron-Leader Donner: Are not many of the troubles in the Island due to the activities of Bustamente and his henchmen? Will my right hon. and gallant Friend look into the activities of this man?

  SIERRA LEONE

    Income Tax (Africans)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any information respecting the incidence of Income Tax on Africans in Sierra Leone; what is the substance of the protests made against it; how far difficulties have arisen, or are likely to arise, in respect of polygamous marriages and offspring of these; and whether provision is made for reduction of Income Tax in respect of domestic obligations associated with non-monogamous households?
    Colonel Stanley: Under the Income Tax now being introduced in Sierra Leone, liability arises only on incomes above £150 in the case of single men without dependants and above £350 in the case of married men without children and then only at low rates until much higher incomes are reached. The great bulk of the African population is therefore exempt. Such protests as I have received represent the tax as bearing hardly on the poorer sections of the community, and appear to be based upon a complete misunderstanding of its incidence. As regards the third part of the Question, I have heard of no special difficulties either in Sierra Leone or in neighbouring territories having similar marriage customs, in which Income Tax has existed for some time past. The answer to the last part of the Question is in the negative.
    Mr. Sorensen: As regards the last part of the Question, do I understand that the Minister has received no kind of protest from any body of persons on that particular aspect?

    Workmen's Compensation
    Mr. David Adamsasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether arrangements have now been made for the settlement of compensation claims of injured workmen in Government service in Sierra Leone, by the local branch of the Overseas Department instead of by the respective Government Departments in this country, whereby delays and hardship to injured applicants or their dependants ensue?
    Colonel Stanley: As I explained to my hon. Friend in reply to the Question he addressed to me on 17th March, this is a matter for the Service Departments concerned and not for the Colonial Office. I am not in a position, therefore, to answer Questions which should be addressed to my right hon. Friends in charge of these Departments.
    Mr. Adams: Does the Minister mean that the Colonial Office can take no action in this matter, which directly affects one of the Colonies?
    Colonel Stanley: This is a matter for machinery within the respective Departments. The hon. Member must put his Question to those Departments.

  TRINIDAD

    Franchise Committee
    Mr. Mathersasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement regarding the findings of the Trinidad Franchise Committee; and what action it is proposed to take thereon?
    Colonel Stanley: I am not in a position to make a statement, as I have not yet received from the Governor the findings of the Franchise Committee.

    Food Situation
    Mr. Mathersasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement regarding complaints about the prices and distribution of food in Trinidad; and whether it is intended to introduce food rationing in the Colony?
    Colonel Stanley: Yes, Sir, the Governor of Trinidad has kept me in touch with the difficulties as to price and distribution of food in that Colony. The Colonial Government is doing all that it can to deal with the problem, but the hon. Member will appreciate that the position is complicated by religious and racial practices affecting diet, as well as by the degree to which the economic life of the Colony has been disturbed by military developments within the Colony. I have received from the Governor of Trinidad representations submitted by certain trade unions in this matter and on the desirability of introducing a rationing system. The Governor has recommended that such a system be introduced, and at his request the possibility of obtaining an expert from this country to help in the establishment of rationing is now being explored.
    Mr. Mathers: As this matter is serious, will it be given the most urgent attention?
    Colonel Stanley: Yes, Sir, I appreciate the urgency, and I am doing all I can.
    Mr. Sorensen: Will not this go along with the attainment of a minimum nutritional standard?
    Colonel Stanley: At the moment the urgent question is to see that the available food is fairly distributed.

  COLONIES (AIR EDUCATION)
  Mr. Wakefieldasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps he is taking to ensure that education in the third dimension and the implications of the air age is being given to youth and their teachers in the Colonies?
  Colonel Stanley: My hon. Friend may be assured that the implications of the air age are being brought home to the youth of the Colonies and their teachers in all forms of visual and written propaganda. The interest of youth in flying is evident from the response of the Colonies to requests for volunteers for aircrews and ground staffs; and Air Training Corps units are already in existence in certain dependencies. I am now considering the question of the establishment of similar units in other dependencies.

  ADEN (FOOD SITUATION)
  Mr. Evelyn Walkdenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies

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  whether he can provide information on the cost of living, and prices of essential foodstuffs, in Aden, over two comparable periods since 1939?
  Colonel Stanley: The cost-of-living index figures on 1st July, 1942 and 1943, were 129 per cent. and 254 per cent. respectively over the pre-war figure. I have no complete information of actual prices, but the Governor has reported the percentage increase in the principal foodstuffs, and these show that the rises in food prices are generally less than the rise in the general index. I am in correspondence with the Governor regarding the measures which it is practical to take to deal with the situation.
  Mr. Walkden: Can the Minister say whether the Government's policy of pegging down prices which obtains in this country obtains in Aden? If not, why not?
  Colonel Stanley: I am consulting on that very point regarding subsidisation. The hon. Gentleman will realise the great difficulty in Aden, which is a demand Colony. Prices, therefore, depend largely on the prices of the imported material.
  Mr. John Dugdale: Have wages of Government employees been raised to a corresponding degree?
  Colonel Stanley: Perhaps the hon. Member will put that Question on the Paper.
  Mr. Evelyn Walkdenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can make any statement concerning the Aden settlement and the apparent food shortage; and what arrangements have been made to provide adequate emergency supplies for the needs of the citizens of Aden?
  Colonel Stanley: I do not think that I can usefully add at present to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Plaistow (Mr. Thorne) on 1st July concerning this matter.
  Mr. Walkden: Are the remedies which the Gentlemen referred to at that time considered satisfactory by the Department?
  Colonel Stanley: My latest information was that the stock position was satisfactory.

  CYPRUS (ARCHBISHOPRIC)
  Mr. Hannahasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what information he can give the House about the present position of the Cypriot Archbishopric?
  Colonel Stanley: There have been no recent developments over this matter, and I do not think there is any new information which I can usefully give the House at this stage.
  Mr. Muff: Could not the Minister consider the appointment of the hon. Member for Bilston (Mr. Hannah) to this office?

  BRITISH GUIANA (REFUGEES)
  Mr. Hannahasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any recent researches have been made as to the suitability of any part of British Guiana as a permanent home for refugees from the mainland of Europe?
  Colonel Stanley: There have been no inquiries into this matter since the report of the Anglo-American Commission in April, 1939.
  Mr. Hannah: Have the Government constantly in mind the difficulties which will arise immediately after the war in connection with large numbers of homeless refugees?
  Colonel Stanley: My hon. Friend will recollect that when that report was made it was pointed out that the only possible place of settlement was in the interior and that a great amount of preparatory work would have to be done before there could be any settlement at all.

  ELECTORAL REFORM
  Mr. Manderasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of moving to appoint a Parliamentary Committee of Inquiry into such measures of electoral reform as age qualification for ex-Service men and women, reduction of cost of elections, further restriction on the activities of outside agencies, variation in amount of deposit, use of conveyances for taking voters to the poll, the use of loud-speakers and the methods of voting, so as to obtain a fairer representation of political opinion in the House?
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): The first point raised in this Question has been carefully considered, and it has been decided not to reduce the age qualification below 21 for the next General Election in respect of Service or ex-Service men and women, since any such step would operate harshly on those other young persons who, by virtue of their essential war work, have been unable to join the Forces. Since the other points raised will be open for discussion during the opportunity to be afforded to Parliament to discuss questions of electoral reform in good time before the next General Election, I do not consider it necessary for these matters to be investigated at this time by a Parliamentary Committee of Inquiry.
  Mr. Edmund Harvey: Would not such a discussion by Parliament be much more profitable if there could be a preliminary inquiry such as is suggested in the Question?
  The Prime Minister: Most people have been inquiring into these matters during the whole of their Parliamentary lives.

  ATLANTIC CHARTER
  Major Petherickasked the Prime Minister whether, considering the fact that the Atlantic Charter has not been ratified by the American Congress and of the apprehension which exists in this and Allied countries, that some of its clauses will gravely hamper the freedom of action of the United Nations in settling terms of peace, he will start negotiations for its amendment?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Major Petherick: In view of the fact that the Atlantic Charter has not been ratified by the United States, and perhaps does not fall to be ratified, has it any binding force on the United States or Great Britain in view of the dangers to the peace treaties which may follow the war?
  The Prime Minister: The so-called Atlantic Charter, indeed, the well called Atlantic Charter, was not a treaty requiring ratification or any formal endorsement of a constitutional character on the other side of the Atlantic. It was a statement of certain broad views and
  190
  principles which are our common guide in our forward march.
  Mr. Hannah: Has not the Atlantic Charter the good will of the world?
  Mr. Sorensen: May we take it that the Governments of the associated countries were associated with the signatories?
  The Prime Minister: Naturally, I should not take the responsibility for agreeing with the head of a foreign State on a subject like this without being supported by the Cabinet.
  Major Petherick: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the first two clauses of the Atlantic Charter bind the Allied Powers in a way that may be highly perilous for them when peace falls to be discussed?
  The Prime Minister: We have lots of worse troubles than that ahead.

  TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT
  Mr. Liddallasked the Prime Minister whether he can assure the House that the General Staff are fully alive to the potentialities of large capacity transport and cargo aeroplanes for speeding up operational tempo both in the field and behind the fighting zones; and whether he will consider setting up a cooperative field organisation for the use of this new form of transportation in modern warfare?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. My hon. Friend can be assured that co-operation between the Staffs and Services is such as to ensure that our resources of transport aircraft are used to the best advantage.

  POST-WAR SURPLUS MATERIALS (DISPOSAL)
  Sir H. Williamsasked the Prime Minister which Department is charged with the responsibility of planning the disposal of surplus material after the war?
  The Prime Minister: Future policy in regard to the disposal of surplus stocks is being considered through the machinery for the study of reconstruction problems under the guidance of my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister without Portfolio. Meanwhile, the responsibility in

  191
  this matter lies with the Supply Departments, the Board of Trade and the Minister of Works, according to the kind of goods or material concerned.

  LABOUR TROUBLES (LOST OUTPUT)
  Mr. Hepworthasked the Minister of Production whether taking the loss through labour troubles of one hour per worker per year, he will express this total loss in terms of battleship or aircraft construction?
  The Minister of Production (Mr. Lyttelton): Any figures which I could give my hon. Friend must be taken with the greatest reserve. They are misleading since, as he will realise, only a proportion of the total labour force is or could be employed in producing battleships or aircraft. With these reservations, however, I can say as a rough guide that the loss would be considerably under half a battleship or 200 aircraft in the 12 months.
  Captain Cobb: How much additional effort would be required to make good the deficiency?
  Mr. Lyttelton: I calculate that if every worker worked for 12 seconds a day more in the next 12 months the loss would be made up.
  Mr. R. J. Taylor: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that if employers ceased doing stupid things, there might be less labour trouble?
  Mr. George Griffiths: Is it not stated in a circular issued by the Ministry of Information that the time lost by the workers in the last 12 months was only half-an-hour per head?

  WAR PRODUCTION, SCOTLAND
  Mr. Stephenasked the Minister of Production (1) whether he will give an assurance that his plans for the rearrangement of production so that Scottish factories, workshops and plants may be as fully utilised as possible in the future were made in consultation with the Secretary of State for Scotland;
  (2) whether he is aware that large numbers of Scottish women are receiving directions to proceed to work in England;
  192
  and what steps are being taken in the rearrangement of production to see that Scotland is obtaining its fair share of industry, so as to prevent the depopulation of Scotland?
  Mr. Lyttelton: As the hon. Member is aware, it is sometimes necessary in the interests of vital war production to transfer mobile labour to other areas, and it is the case that limited numbers of women are being transferred from Scotland as from other areas. Nevertheless it is the policy of all Departments, both in placing new production and in rearranging production to allocate as many orders as possible to areas where labour and facilities exist. Accordingly a considerable volume of additional production has been, and is being placed in Scotland. I am in close touch with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland regarding the application of this policy to Scotland, and the Scottish Council on Industry are in close touch with the Regional organisation of my Department.
  Mr. Stephen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is great discontent in Scotland at the number of Scottish women who have been taken to England, and that something ought to be done so that they might be allowed to work in their own country?
  Mr. Lyttelton: I am very sympathetic to the hon. Member's remarks. We have succeeded in the last 12 months in placing projects for new industrial buildings in Scotland in a ratio very much higher than the insured population bears to the total.
  Mr. Mathers: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, while progress is recognised, there is still the grievance of girls who are training in Scotland working alongside others who are provided for within reach of their own homes, while those who come from outside that particular area are sent to far districts in England?
  Mr. Lyttelton: We are doing our best to limit this evil.

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY

    Inspector's Retirement (Pension)
    Mr. William Brownasked the Minister of Supply why Mr. E. W. Russell, O.B.E., Inspector of Fuses, has

    193
    been refused establishment and denied the right to a pension on retirement, in view of the fact that he has served 53 years in the Inspection Department of the Ministry of Supply, and performed his duties in an efficient and satisfactory manner throughout this period.
    The Minister of Supply (Sir Andrew Duncan): Mr. Russell is not, according to the normal rules, entitled to the grant of a pension, but I am taking his case up with the Treasury.

    Ministry Staff (Imperial Chemical Industries Personnel)
    Mr. Boothbyasked the Minister of Supply whether he will give the number and the names of those officials in his Department who were employed in peacetime by Imperial Chemical Industries, Limited, together with the appointments

    Name

    Grade

    Branch Where Serving

    Allman, W

    Assistant Director

    Directorate of Filling Factories (Engineering).

    Armit, J. W.

    Director-General of Explosives

    —

    Ashwell, G. M.

    Regional Engineer

    Directorate of Filling Factories

    Bain, F. W.

    Chairman

    Chemical Control Board

    Bennett, H. B.

    Chemist in Charge

    Royal Ordnance Factory

    Black, A. D.

    Managing Chemist

    Royal Ordnance Factory

    Black, G. A.

    Assistant Controller

    Industrial Ammonia Control

    Blench, E. A.

    Assistant Superintendent

    Royal Ordnance Factory

    Boyes, W. H. D.

    Chemist in Charge

    Royal Ordnance Factory

    Burleigh, Capt. L. G.

    Controller

    Factory Transportation

    Butler, F.

    Regional Officer

    Directorate of Filling Factories

    Cathie, J.

    Regional Officer

    Directorate of Filling Factories

    Cole, D. W.

    Regional Engineer

    Royal Ordnance Factory

    Colmer, W. L.

    Assistant Director

    Directorate of Ordnance Factories (Explosives).

    Cook, C. B.

    Supply Officer, Chemicals Division.

    British Supply Mission

    Cooper, H. E.

    Design Officer

    Armaments Design

    Clive, H. E.

    Assistant Director

    British Supply Mission

    Cross, D.

    Deputy Director

    Directorate of Ordnance Factories (Explosives).

    Currie, A. C.

    Deputy Assistant Director

    Directorate of Filling Factories (Training)

    Davies, A. L.

    Regional Engineer

    Directorate of Filling Factories

    Davies, D. J. B.

    Technical Officer

    British Supply Mission

    Disney, H. V.

    Assistant Director

    Directorate of Filling Factories (Engineering).

    Eley, C. R. M.

    Assistant Controller

    Industrial Ammonia Control

    Ellis, W. W.

    Regional Officer

    Royal Ordnance Factory

    Fletcher, N. F.

    Technical Adviser

    Overseas

    Fort, R.

    Technical Adviser

    Directorate of Small Arms Ammunition

    Gibbs, J. W.

    Assistant Director

    British Supply Mission

    Herapath, C. A.

    Regional Director

    Directorate of Filling Factories

    Hinton, C.

    Principal Director

    Filling Factories

    Hirst, H. S.

    Director

    Chemical Defence

    Humble, L. G.

    Technical Assistant, Grade I

    Royal Ordnance Factory

    Houston, A. D.

    Area Labour Manager

    Labour Management

    Jones, G. G.

    Chemist in Charge

    Royal Ordnance Factory

    Kavanagh, T. J.

    Chief Technical Assistant

    Directorate of Filling Factories (Engineering).

    Lehman, Dr. J.

    Assistant Controller

    Industrial Ammonia Control

    Lineham, O. R.

    Superintendent

    Royal Ordnance Factory

    Malkin, A. H.

    Regional Officer

    Directorate of Filling Factories

    Molliett, Dr. J. L.

    Senior Experimental Officer

    Controller of Chemical Research

    they hold; and whether any of these officials are at present in receipt of any remuneration from Imperial Chemical Industries, Limited?
    Sir A. Duncan: Complete information of the kind asked for in the first part of the Question is not available, as members of the staff of the Ministry of Supply are not classified by reference to their previous employers. I would, however, refer my hon. Friend to the information regarding Imperial Chemical Industries personnel which I gave in answer to the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) on 7th July; and I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the officers referred to in that answer. Twelve of these officers receive no remuneration from public funds.
    Following is the list:

    Name.

    Grade.

    Branch Where Serving

    Naylor, R. A. E.

    …

    Efficiency Expert

    Royal Ordnance Factory

    Neech, H. R.

    …

    Technical Consultant

    Directorate of Ordnance Factories (Explosives).

    Owen, W. L.

    …

    Director

    Directorate of Filling Factories (Engineering).

    Parrish, A.

    …

    Technical Assistant, Grade I

    Directorate of Filling Factories (Engineering).

    Rayner, J. W. R.

    …

    Regional Development Officer

    Royal Ordnance Factory

    Robinson, C. S.

    …

    Director - General of Filling Factories.

    Robinson, K. B.

    …

    Regional Director

    Directorate of Filling Factories

    Rogers, J.

    …

    Chairman of Ammunition Board.

    Rolfe, A. C.

    …

    Chief Technical Assistant

    Directorate of Ordnance Factories (Explosives).

    Smith, F. E.

    …

    Chief Engineer

    Armaments Design

    Smout, A. J. G.

    …

    Director-General of Small Arms Ammunition Production.

    Spalding, H. B.

    …

    Investigation Officer

    Directorate of Filling Factories (Development).

    Speyer, F. C. O.

    …

    Controller

    Industrial Ammonia Control

    Stairmand, G. J.

    …

    Senior Technical Assistant

    Directorate of Filling Factories (Engineering).

    Stickland, O. W.

    …

    Technical Director

    British Supply Mission

    Strouts, C. R. N.

    …

    Chemist in Charge

    Royal Ordnance Factory

    Tetlow, W. E.

    …

    Chemist

    Royal Ordnance Factory

    Thomas, G. W.

    …

    Deputy Controller

    Plastics Control

    Turner, C. J.

    …

    Chief Technical Assistant

    Directorate of Filling Factories (Engineering).

    Wallace, T.

    …

    Superintendent

    Royal Ordnance Factory

    White, G. W.

    …

    Director

    British Supply Mission

    Wilkins, Dr. F. J.

    …

    Regional Development Officer

    Royal Ordnance Factory

    Young, W.

    …

    Investigation Officer

    Directorate of Filling Factories (Training)

    Discarded and Rejected Service Boots
    Sir Granville Gibsonasked the Minister of Supply, (I) what percentage of discarded or rejected Army boots are repaired and reissued to the Forces for further service; and what percentage are sold for civilian purposes;
    (2) the total number of pairs of discarded Service boots sold by the Ministry during the past 12 months; and the method used in the disposal of these stocks and the average price per pair at which they are sold?
    Sir A. Duncan: During the past 12 months, 44,380 pairs of boots, not repairable to Service standards, have been sold by the Ministry of Supply; most of them were sold at a nominal price to a social service organisation on condition of no resale. No Army boots are now being sold to the trade for use as civilian footwear. Thirty per cent. of the discarded or rejected Army boots returned to the Ministry are being rebuilt and re-issued to the War Office and the Ministry of Home Security. Forty-five per cent. are being reconditioned and stored against possible emergencies, and the remainder
    196
    are passed to salvage after the usable parts have been recovered.
    Sir G. Gibson: Has the right hon. Gentleman any Department for repairing for civilian purposes boots which have been re-issued to the Forces?
    Sir A. Duncan: We have a Department which overlooks that matter, but we have channels through which repairs can be done.
    Sir G. Gibson: If only 53,000 pairs have been repaired during the past 12 months, how is it that 500,000 pairs have recently been sold by a Manchester firm and exported to Eire for civilian purposes? Why could they not have been kept in this country?
    Sir A. Duncan: My hon. Friend has another Question to which the President of the Board of Trade is replying on that subject.
    Mr. E. Walkden: If these figures are correct, why is it that people who have never handled boots or shoes or repairs before are able to offer 100,000 pairs which have been dumped for 12 months in the Midlands?
    Sir A. Duncan: This may be possible in respect of accumulations in the past. I cannot say. I shall be very glad if the hon. Member will give particulars, and I will give him a complete answer.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Milk Producers
    Major Yorkasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food the number of producers of milk of tuberculin-tested and attested standard who sell to the Ministry of Food at 31st May, 1942, and 31st May, 1943, and the number of producer retailers of this quality milk on the same dates?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Mr. Mabane): The estimated numbers of wholesale producers and producer-retailers of milk of tuberculin-tested and attested standard on 1st June, 1943, were 2,280 and 1,030 respectively. The corresponding figures for 1st June, 1942, were 2,190 and 1,110.
    Major York: Can the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that his Department is undertaking the necessary research to find out all the statistics on the subject of T.T. milk produced?
    Mr. Mabane: We are doing our best.

    Strawberries (Growers' Prices)
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food on what data the pre-emption price of 8¾d. per lb. for this year was arrived at for strawberries produced in North West Kent?
    Mr. Mabane: Growers' prices for strawberries were fixed by the Ministry on a national basis after consultation with a committee of the National Farmers' Union representing growers in the different producing areas, including North West Kent. Consideration was also given to estimates of the probable yield and of dates of maturity of the crop, and to the experience of the 1942 Order.
    Sir W. Smithers: In view of the fact that the Minister of Agriculture stated in the House that he has no precise information on this matter, why does the Minister of Food insist in fixing pre-emption prices in this late season area below the cost of production, to the financial detriment of the small growers? It breaks their hearts.
    Mr. Mabane: We cannot do better than come to agreement with the National Farmers' Union in consultation with the Ministry of Agriculture. In fact there is every reason to believe that the prices paid for strawberries this year were very satisfactory to the growers.
    Mr. Mathers: Did the Ministry get agreement with the Scottish growers, because there is a feeling that the prices to them were also unfair?
    Mr. Mabane: Not, I think, for strawberries.

    Farm Sunday, Birmingham
    Mr. Higgsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that the i,000 volunteers taking part in the parade on Farm Sunday, in Birmingham, were prevented from having a drink because the application for 5 lbs. of tea and 9 lbs. of sugar made by the Warwickshire War Agricultural Executive Committee was refused; and why did he not make arrangements for a supply of the above?
    Mr. Mabane: It is the policy of my Noble Friend not to make additional supplies available for special functions, and he has not been able to depart from this policy in order to enable refreshments to be provided for those taking part in parades such as that mentioned by my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Higgs: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that two days before Farm Sunday a mobile canteen was in the centre of Birmingham supplying hot drinks to a queue waiting for ration cards? Is he not able to supply drinks when he is intimately concerned with any particular problem?
    Mr. Mabane: Certainly, the arrangement should be that canteens provide drinks on these occasions, and usually arrangements are made to secure that mobile canteens provide what is necessary on occasions of this kind.
    Mr. Holdsworth: Seeing that there is always a plentiful supply of beer available, cannot the Department make tea available for those wanting it?
    Mr. Mabane: Tea can be supplied by catering establishments and canteens and arrangements are usually made for this to be done on such occasions.

    Dried Egg Prices
    Mr McKinlayasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food the names of the trade representatives who advised, or accepted on behalf of retailers, the scheme for the readjustment of dried egg prices?
    Mr. Mabane: Representatives of the following organisations concerned with retail distribution were consulted on the scheme for the readjustment of dried egg prices: The National Federation of Grocers and Provision Dealers' Associations, the Parliamentary Committee of the Co-operative Congress, the Retail Distributors' Association, the National Association of Multiple Grocers, and the Scottish Federation of Grocers' and Provision Merchants' Associations. The last-named body was not represented at the meeting but was consulted by telephone.
    Mr. McKinlay: Do I take it that it was agreed that the loss should be borne by the retailers on the stocks they had in hand when the price was cut?
    Mr. Mabane: We had every reason to believe that the associations whose names I have read out agreed with the proposals made.

    Soft Drinks
    Flight-Lieutenant Raikesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food the number of firms previously licensed by his Department for the manufacture of soft drinks and whose manufacture entails no consumption of sugar, who are adversely affected by the sugar content conditions imposed by Statutory Rule and Order No. 838 of 1943, and who will automatically be compelled to cease business?
    Sir H. Williamsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food why the previous and pre-war manufacture of soft drinks containing sweetening agents other than sugar, or without any sweetening agent in the case of unsweetened squashes, is now prohibited?
    Major Petherickasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food the number of persons or firms previously licensed to manufacture soft drinks and whose licences have been revoked in the month of June, 1943, who are consequently without any allocation of sugar, and who will now be prohibited to manufacture?
    Sir Reginald Clarryasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what steps he is taking to make good the manufacture of the large gallonage of soft drinks that will cease to be made in consequence of the revocation of certain licences and the imposition of a sugar content through the revocation of certain licences and the imposition of a sugar content through the operation of S.R. & O. 838 of 1943; whether any increased allocations of sugar are to be made and, if so, to whom, to enable this shortage to be met?
    Mr. Mabane: As regards unsweetened squashes, my Noble Friend regrets that it has been found necessary to prohibit the retail sale of certain preparations of natural strength fruit juices because the limited supply of fruit juices now available has made it essential to ensure their even and general distribution. The other products referred to in these Questions are for the most part synthetic drinks which have come on to the market in the last two or three years as a result of the restrictions imposed on the production of genuine soft drinks owing to the reduced allocation of sugar for this purpose. In the case of 20 firms, all of which have entered the industry since the war, it has been established that they have no basic sugar usage and are therefore not entitled to an allocation of sugar. At present there are some 63 further firms about whose basic usage and consequent entitlement to a sugar allocation doubt exists. Inquiries are being made in these cases. Arrangements have been made to allocate sufficient sugar for soft drinks manufacture under the terms of the Soft Drinks Order, 1943, to produce an output equal to that available to the public in 1940–41.

    Herrings and Kippers
    Mr. Boothbyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food why even at the height of the fishing season, fresh herring and kippers are practically unobtainable in London and the Southern counties?
    Mr. Mabane: Owing to circumstances connected with the war the quantity of herrings landed is now very much less than in peace-time, and even during the height of the fishing season is considerably below the demand by consumers. The distribution of herrings and kippers is not controlled. Landings of herrings

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    during the past fortnight have been below expectations, but I am informed that moderate supplies of both herrings and kippers have been received at Billingsgate.
    Mr. Boothby: Is not my hon. Friend aware that the failure to obtain herrings has caused great disappointment to many people who have come to care for them very much, and will he take steps with the transport companies to see that something is done to make them available occasionally in London and the south?
    Mr. Mabane: Herrings and kippers are not subject to control, and the trade can distribute them as they wish. The evidence before me shows that substantial quantities have arrived at Billingsgate in the last fortnight.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some fishmongers complain that they cannot get kippers for distribution to their customers, and does that not mean that the scheme is working adversely?
    Mr. Mabane: I have tried to explain that there is no scheme. Herrings and kippers are not controlled.
    Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Is there not good reason for believing that they are going to hotels and are therefore not available in the shops?
    Mr. Hannah: Is it not far more serious that hardly more than a stray sardine ever reaches the Black country?
    Mr. Mabane: The Black country gets plenty of white fish.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
Sir G. Gibson: Last week I put down three Questions to the Minister of Supply. Two of them are Nos. 53 and 54, which have been answered to-day. Another one dealing with the same subject was for some reason transferred to the Board of Trade, with the result that it is No. 107 on the Order Paper and has, therefore, no chance of receiving an oral reply. They are all connected with one another, and I would like to know why one was transferred.
Mr. Speaker: This question is very often asked. If a Member puts down a Question
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to the wrong Department, he must not be surprised if it is transferred to the right Department.
Sir G. Gibson: They all deal with the same subject. Two have been replied to, as I desired, by the Minister of Supply, but the other was transferred to the Board of Trade.
Mr. McKinlay: What is the position of an hon. Member who accepts the advice of the responsible officer and is later told that the officer was wrong and that the Question should not go to the Minister to whom he said it should go, but should go back to the Minister to whom the Question was originally addressed, and in the process finds itself separated from another Question by the hon. Member by 13 other Questions?
Mr. Speaker: That is rather too complicated for me to answer offhand. If I have notice of it, I may be able to give a better answer.

WAR PENSIONS (WHITE PAPER AND DEBATE)
Mr. Arthur Greenwood: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he has any statement to make about the publication of the White Paper on changes in war pensions?
Mr. Eden: A White Paper on Changes in War Pensions is now available to hon. Members in the Vote Office. It may be convenient if I inform the House that it is proposed to take the promised Debate on War Pensions on the first day in the next series of Sittings. The Debate will take place in Committee of Supply on the Vote of the Ministry of Pensions.
Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Are we likely to discuss Amendments to the Royal Warrant in connection with the White Paper?
Mr. Eden: What is proposed is that we should discuss the changes set out in the White Paper.
Mr. Buchanan: Is the Leader of the House not aware that on Supply we are not allowed to discuss legislation and are only allowed to review the work of the Department? The White Paper must in some way involve legislative changes and cannot have anything to do with a review of the Department's work. Will the right

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hon. Gentleman, therefore, take steps to see that Members will not be curbed unduly, as they will be if the matter is discussed on Supply?
Mr. Eden: I have considered that, but I do not think my hon. Friend need have any anxiety. The White Paper deals with changes in the Royal Warrant, and everything in it will be, as I understand it, subject to the Ruling of the Chair, open to discussion.
Mr. Buchanan: The Ruling always is that we cannot discuss legislation on Supply. In some respects changes in the Royal Warrant may raise questions of legislative changes. In any case, the White Paper cannot have anything to do with a review of the work of the Department. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman could consider whether some form of Motion could be put down.
Mr. Eden: I do not think an amendment of the Royal Warrant requires legislation. However, it is naturally the desire of the Government that the discussion should be adequate, and I will consider the point my hon. Friend has made.
Commander Sir Archibald Southby: On a point of Order. May I ask for your guidance, Mr. Speaker? It may well be that Members of the Committee will want to make suggestions which go beyond what is contained in the White Paper, and it was suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) that they would not be in Order in a Debate on a Vote in Committee of Supply. May I ask whether it will be possible to discuss not only the contents of the White Paper but to go beyond the contents of the White Paper if what is said is in criticism of it or in criticism of the present state of affairs regarding pensions?
Mr. Speaker: That will be a matter for the occupant of the Chair in Committee, and therefore I cannot deal with it, but I should say off hand that Members would be discussing a Royal Warrant and not legislation and therefore that the suggestions which the hon. and gallant Member gave would probably be passed by the Chair.
Captain Cobb: Is it proposed to give only one day for this discussion?
Mr. Eden: I hope that will be adequate, but if there are many hon. Members who want to speak, we should consider suspending the Rule.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
"That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 14, Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before the hour appointed for the interruption of Business."—[Mr. Eden.]

NAVY, ARMY AND AIR EXPENDITURE, 1941
Resolved:
"That this House will upon the next Sitting Day resolve itself into a Committee to consider the surpluses and deficits upon Navy, Army and Air Grants for the year ended 31st March, 1942, and the application of surplus receipts realised under certain Votes for Navy, Army and Air Services towards making good deficits in receipts under other Votes in the respective Departments."—[Mr. James Stuart.]
Ordered:
"That the Appropriation Accounts for the Navy, Army and Air Departments which were presented on 19tb January, be referred to the Committee."—[Mr. James Stuart.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [15TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1943

    SHIPPING
    Motion made, and Question proposed.
    "That a further sum, not exceeding £20, be granted to His Majesty, towards defraying the charges for the following services connected with Shipping, for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1944, namely:—

    Class X, Ministry of War Transport

    £10

    Class VI, Mercantile Marine Services

    £10

    £20"

    Mr. Shinwell: In the midst of stern and critical events which arouse our interest and anxieties, we turn aside to consider the future of one of our great national services. This course is justified by past events. We have no desire to witness a repetition of the depression that pursued the British Mercantile Marine after the last Great War. This is a duty we owe to the gallant officers and men of the Merchant Navy, who deserve our highest

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    praise, and whose sacrifices must be repaid, not in fine phrases but in tangible gifts. It is an earnest of our resolve to prevent a return of the blight that overwhelmed our shipbuilding centres and brought depression into the lives of thousands of skilled shipyard artisans and labourers in the inter-war years. Moreover, it is a necessity imposed upon us by the gigantic tasks that await the whole nation in the revival of trade and commerce and in the growth of living standards for the people. There can be none, either in the House of Commons or elsewhere, who can dispute the need for a virile, adequate and highly efficient Mercantile Marine.
    Let me make it clear at the outset that this is a Debate on post-war shipping. We are not concerned at this juncture with the present position. We are not to consider either shipping losses or replacements. Those are subjects, as we well know, that are reserved exclusively for secret Debates. It has been the desire of some hon. Members, including myself—I frankly confess it—to discuss in open Session the matters to which I have just referred, but the Government have thought otherwise, and hon. Members are in duty bound to acquiesce in that decision. Therefore, I repeat, we are concerned with the future and not with the present situation. Let us, to begin with, consider the facts, and consider them frankly and fearlessly, however unpalatable they may appear to be. This is a great island and maritime nation. We have been proud of our great Mercantile Marine and its achievements, and in the past as a maritime nation we were supreme. There was at our command, in numbers of vessels, in marine efficiency, of which there was an ample supply, and in the type of vessel we were capable of producing, the greatest volume of tonnage in the world. We were, in short, the greatest maritime nation.
    It is deplorable, but we must face the fact that the position has undergone a serious and unpleasant change. We began the war with, roughly speaking—I shall use only rough figures—20,000,000 tons of shipping. On the most optimistic estimate, we cannot expect to have more than about 9,000,000 tons of shipping at our disposal at the conclusion of hostilities. On the other hand, the United States of America, which has never been re-
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    garded either from the standpoint of numbers or from that of maritime skill as a great marine nation—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] The facts are well known to all who have studied these problems. I say that the United States of America, who began this war, or to put it more correctly who entered the war, with roughly 7,000,000 tons of shipping, much of it not of high quality—I disregard for the moment the shipping used on the Great Lakes, which amounts to almost z,000,000 tons—will at the end of the war have between 15,000,000 tons and it may be 30,000,000 tons of first-class shipping. There would appear to be a wide gulf between those two figures of 15,000,000 and 30,000,000.
    Mr. Colegate: May I ask the hon. Gentleman a question?
    Mr. Shinwell: It is too early for interruptions, and I would ask the hon. Member to allow me to proceed. No doubt the Committee will, later on, be glad to hear the hon. Member's view on this important and intricate subject. That margin between 15,000,000 and 30,000,000 tons is attributable to the fact that there are so many maritime spokesmen in the United States who claim to represent the true position in that country. But from the statements that have been adduced and the figures that have been advanced, it is fair to say that the amount of tonnage that will be available to the United States at the close of the war should vary between those two figures. Indeed a spokesman for the American Maritime Commission said the other day—and this, I think, is worth quoting—that at the present rate of shipbuilding and under the projected programme of new construction, the United States will have about as much merchant tonnage at the end of 1944 as all the rest of the nations of the world combined, according to the American Mercantile Marine Institute. Those are, as hon. Members will agree, very significant facts, and they bear serious implications, unless the position, in some form or other, is corrected, and corrected speedily.
    I think it would be useful to devote a little time to considering the position of the other Allies. They have lost a great volume of the shipping which was at their disposal at the beginning of the war. Much of it has been replaced out

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    of our shipbuilding programme. Incidentally, we have provided for some of the Allies some of our best ships, in addition to providing them with higher freights than our own shipowners receive, but I do not want to make too much of that, because there are, perhaps, special difficulties concerning the Netherlands Government, the Norwegian Government, the Greek Government and others. But it is just as well to point that out, because they may find themselves at the end of the war with a large fleet of fast motor vessels, and there are experts who believe—and there is some justification for their belief—that the future of the Mercantile Marine is bound up, at any rate to some extent, with the construction of motor vessels. We have to face these facts. We are no longer supreme. We shall be supreme no longer at the close of the war. The ball has passed to the feet of the United States of America.
    Mr. Maxton: May I ask my hon. Friend whether he is referring to shipping or shipbuilding?
    Mr. Shinwell: It is very difficult to separate shipping from shipbuilding. The ships are being built and the shipping will be available at the close of the war. There will be losses, of course. Even the most optimistic of American spokesmen accept the view that huge losses will be incurred in the course of the war. But the speeding up of American shipbuilding at an unprecedented rate must be taken into account. They claim that this year they, will have constructed 19,000,000 dead weight tons which means about 12,000,000 or 13,000,000 gross registered tonnage and that of course will put them in a very strong position at the close of the war.
    When these facts are presented, there is the immediate response that all these problems and complications can be dissipated by international co-operation. I am all for international co-operation. Like other hon. Members, I desire to see the nations of the world co-operating, working and living in amity and concord, economically, socially and it may be politically a great international brotherhood. But we are not speaking in terms of idealism. We must be realistic, and those who speak glibly and largely about international co-operation as a possible solution of our maritime problems in the
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    future, must be called upon for their definition of international co-operation and their explanation of how it is to be applied. Is it suggested that there will be an international shipping control at the close of the war, regulating and controlling the ships of all maritime nations, or, to put it on a lower level, is it suggested that there will be an Anglo-American shipping control at the close of the war, and that Anglo-American control will have the exclusive charge and administration of vessels owned in the United States and in this country? Is that suggested? There is no evidence—I beg hon. Members to believe this—of any desire on the part of those associated either with the American Maritime Commission or with American industry for anything of that sort.
    We are not speaking of the America of President Roosevelt or of Mr. Henry Wallace. If we had that to contend with, our problem would be of comparatively easy solution. We are dealing with the America of big business and of Wall Street, the America of those who believe they can use the huge reserves of the United States of America in order to adopt an investment policy all over the world and to enable their shipping facilities to respond to that policy. It is that America with which we have to contend. Hon. Members had better face that fact. Is it suggested that there should be what are called conference arrangements? Those were in operation before the war, as hon. Members know. Certain companies in this and other countries came to agreements about freights and passenger rates and the like, but, even with the inclusion of the United States shipping interests, such conference arrangements—which promoted a great measure of stability, I agree, and eliminated competition—were not in accordance with the British methods of providing rebates. As a result there was always a good deal of undercutting. I should like to know whether that is what is meant by internatoinal co-operation. Is it suggested that we should eliminate competition between the two countries? Those who make that suggestion must be prepared to amplify what they say by affording practical illustrations of how it is to be achieved. It is no use getting up into the air on this question. We have to keep our feet on terra firma.
    Moreover, is it suggested that there should be an allocation of trade routes,

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    for example, that the United States should be responsible for the Pacific and we for the Atlantic and the Mediterranean? That would strike such a deadly blow at the British Mercantile Marine that we should find it impossible to maintain our position at all. The British Mercantile Marine, like the Mercantile Marine of other nations, must be permitted entry to the oceans of the world. It cannot be excluded from any of them. I ask this question, because it is necessary to clear the decks and to understand exactly what is meant when we speak about international co-operation, which is, I repeat, an excellent ideal. We should try to promote its growth everywhere, but let us be quite clear what we seek, in applying that excellent principle to the practical situation which confronts us.
    In any event, if we agree that there is a possibility of promoting some measure of international co-operation, we must at the very least put our own affairs in good order. We must be—I regret having to use the phrase, because it always sounds capitalistic—in a strong bargaining position. Is it not obvious that 9,000,000 tons cannot talk on equal terms with 20,000,000 tons, particularly when the 20,000,000 are very speedy and efficient, and moreover, are highly subsidised? There is no doubt as to United States' intentions on that head. Mr. Carmody, a member of the United States Maritime Commission:
    "noting that a movement was already afoot to discredit Government subsidies declared that the anti-subsidy campaign must he met and defeated in the United States if America was to maintain a strong and well-founded merchant fleet in the post-war world."
    He elaborated that theme at great length in order to show that subsidies were essential. It is very doubtful whether we, in our financial position at the close of the war, will be able to provide subsidies to the extent that they can be provided in the United States of America. Those are some other facts of which we must take notice.
    I want to ask the Government a few questions. I want to know what their plans are. Have they any plans? Has this question of the future of the Mercantile Marine been under consideration? A further question I want to put to them is one which may sound somewhat
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    peculiar coming from these benches, but as I develop the theme I think my hon. Friends will understand. The question is this: Do the Government intend at the end of the war to revert to private ownership of shipping?
    Viscountess Astor: Yes, of course they do.
    Mr. Shinwell:
    "And still they gazed, and still the wonder grew,
    That one small head could carry all she knew."
    We have even heard that society dames are behind the Government. Who can tell? In the United States they are flirting with this question. [An HON. MEMBER: "With the dames?"] No, with the subject of the conversion to private ownership at the close of the war. Admiral Lane, one of the greatest authorities on maritime affairs in the United States, has expressed the view that after the war the United States merchant service should be privately operated and privately controlled. He added—and this is worth noting—that if private ownership could not do it, the Government would. There is no doubt about their intentions. I want to know whether the Government intend to hand over the whole of the shipping, now requisitioned and largely nationalised, to private owners at the close of the war. I ask that question from the standpoint of the shipowners themselves. [Laughter.] Yes, and I do so because it is desirable to remove uncertainty. Shipowners do not know where they stand or what is going to happen. They sometimes suspect that the Government contemplate the nationalisation of shipping. They are not prepared to purchase Government-owned shipping, and they have been very chary in that regard. They have not availed themselves of Government offers; that is well-known in shipowning circles. Nor are they prepared to say whether they are going to embark upon a privately-owned shipbuilding programme at the close of the war.
    There is uncertainty for other good and sound reasons. I shall enumerate some of them. First of all, shipowners want guidance on the Government's air policy. Will shipowners contemplate the provision of large liners to carry passengers across the Atlantic or elsewhere if they are to be confronted with excessive air competition,

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    which obviously would affect their position? The Government ought to say what their air policy will be in relation to shipping after the war. Shipowners also desire to know—this provides also a large measure of uncertainty among them—what plans the Government have in hand in order to deal with competition among the maritime nations. Have the Government entered into discussions with the United States, or with the Netherlands Government or with any other Government on this question? Is there any intention of promoting a scheme which will eliminate competition both as regards freights and passenger rates? They also desire to know how long the control will last. Shipowners have agreed with refreshing generosity that they do not expect that control will be removed for at least 12 months after the war. Thereafter they hope, of course, that the Government will respond to their wishes, but they want to know how long control will last and what are the Government's intentions. There is an element of uncertainty which arises from the fact that shipowners are not aware of what the Government's trading policy is to be after the war. Is it to be a tariff policy, because obviously such a policy might strike a deadly blow at shipping interests, as it did before the war? In all these matters there is considerable uncertainty, and the Government are called upon to remove that uncertainty by developing their schemes and stating them to the Committee.
    On the other hand, if it is the Government's intention to continue State control as a settled policy, I ask hon. Members to note that, as a permanent policy, they ought to say so. The country ought to be made aware of what their intentions are. Here I want to interpolate by directing the attention of Members to this fact: Practically the whole of British shipping is now nationalised. A large amount of our shipping tonnage at the beginning of the war, practically the whole of it, was owned by private owners. Much of it has been lost and replaced by ships built on Government account, owned by the Government, controlled by the Government. The Government direct the policy, and all the shipowners do is manage the ships. So, strictly speaking, the shipping of this country is now nationalised. Is it the intention of the Government that that will continue after the war? If so, they
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    should indicate what is to be the method of administration, how the shipowners will fit into the scheme, and whether they intend to continue building ships on Government account.
    The Chairman: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but he must not go into detail on anything to be done after the war, which will need legislation.
    Mr. Shinwell: In my view, for what it may be worth, as shipping is now nationalised it does not require legislation to continue Government control of ships after the war except under the Emergency Powers Act, which is merely a continuation of existing legislation. I will not pursue that point, but it is quite clear that unless we are able to extract from the Government information as to their intentions, this Debate is not worth having at all. We ought to know, the country wants to know in short, Are you going to revert to private ownership, which may or may not require legislation, or are you going to continue the existing position, which may require legislation? I think on these heads we are entitled to some information.
    I want to ask a question which has certainly nothing to do with legislation. What are the Government's intentions about the type of ships and the speed of ships that are to be constructed? We have had controversy in this Committee about the speed of ships. At first the Government resisted the request made by many Members who were aware of what was happening in the United States and of what was happening in Japan before the war, when fast ships were being constructed. Now we are told that the Government have a programme for the building of fast vessels. How many, we do not know. We accept what they say, but do they intend to continue building fast vessels after the war, of what speed and of what type? Notice what is happening in the United States. They embarked on a shipbuilding policy which provided for the construction of a large number of what were called "Liberty" ships, which were intended for emergency purposes, with a speed of between 9 and II knots. But the American Government have now decided to embark on another policy of building what they call "Victory" ships, no longer vessels of 9 to II knots; they are now 15 to 18 knots ships, with tankers of even greater speed. None of these ships are coming over here. They

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    may be available to us for war purposes, but they are not to be handed over to the British Mercantile Marine. If we have to compete with vessels of that calibre, we are going to be in a very difficult position. The Government ought to say—this does not involve nationalisation—whether they propose to build under their Mercantile Marine policy fast or slow ships or ships of moderate speed.
    I come to the question of what policy, in my view, should be adopted. In the first place, it is essential, in my judgment, to continue State control after the war. It is necessary first of all because of the relief and the rehabilitation measures which will be required, and it is necessary also because we shall have to contend with competition from other maritime nations. It is also necessary because I think the time has arrived—I hope I am not ungenerous to the ship-owning fraternity—when we cannot afford to allow individual shipowners to run the British Mercantile Marine regardless of national interests. The Mercantile Marine is too important to have its policy decided on by private interests. Therefore my view, and I think I represent the views of my hon. Friends, is that it is necessary to maintain State control and State direction.
    Moreover, it appears to me that wider transport interests must be considered. I cannot discuss details of them to-dayroad, rail and civil aviation—but certainly an efficient Mercantile Marine cannot be promoted in isolation. Regard must be had to other transport facilities and other transport needs. It may well be that we shall require a Minister of Communications after the war, even embracing the postal services and telegraphs. That may be necessary. I understand that will involve legislation, so I merely throw out the suggestion. One thing is certain. There can be no more building of large luxury liners like the "Queen Mary" and the "Queen Elizabeth." They are the white elephants of the sea. I agree that during the war they have been very useful for troopship purposes, but from the standpoint of troop facilities your intermediate liner is just as valuable and is less costly to run. In view of the prospect of competition from civil aviation, it seems to me absurd to continue the policy of building the large luxury liners.
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    As regards the tramp trade, here we are presented with a difficulty. I am not going to suggest, much as I should like to do it, that we should nationalise the tramp shipping trade. I believe that this is much too difficult a proposition at this stage and may present difficulties immediately on the close of hostilities. I suggest that the time has arrived or is rapidly approaching when it is necessary to reduce the number of units in the tramp trade, to a concentration on fewer companies, to promote greater efficiency and to eliminate so far as is practicable the competition which to a large extent frustrated the efforts of the industry in the past. It is necessary also for the purpose of controlling freights, which can only be controlled effectively when you have rationalised the machinery of tramp shipping. I suggest that the Government might experiment—I do not know whether this will involve legislation; perhaps I am not permitted to argue it at length, but I throw it out—that in some of the liner trades that are concerned with regular routes, for example the meat trade and the fruit trade, in which vessels are sailing between ports of this country and ports abroad regularly on a regular schedule carrying food intended for consumption in this country, there is an opening for nationalisation, where the Government could step in, take possession of the vessels themselves, and, I believe, run them just as efficiently as they were administered before the war.
    But be this noted. I do not propose that Civil servants at the Ministry of Shipping should run them, however capable those Civil servants are. If the shipping industry is to be administered nationally under a form of national ownership or State control after the war, it must be administered by those who understand the business. It does not always follow that Civil servants, however efficient they are in administration, understand the running of industry. It might be necessary to set up something in the nature of a public corporation with Ministerial direction answerable to Parliament.
    I turn to the conditions of the men. There is no use paying tributes to the officers and men of the Mercantile Marine merely for the purpose of paying tributes. These men want to know what is to happen to them at the close of the war. They had a raw deal in the inter-war

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    years. There were scores, running into hundreds, of efficient Mercantile Marine officers, many of them with first-class certificates, who were deprived of the opportunity of a livelihood. I have known of some who were compelled to apply for employment as vacuum cleaner salesmen. Many of them were beggars and would have taken any kind of employment at all; some were compelled to take any kind, however badly paid it was. We must not return to that condition of affairs after this war.
    It is all very well to indulge in high falutin' phrases about the services the men have rendered, but give them security after the war. That is better than all your kind words. We had better speak bluntly about this matter. The first thing is to provide regular employment. I hope the Government are going to provide for a continuance of what is known as the continuous pool, a reservoir of officers and men available for service, and paid during the period of unemployment for which they are not responsible. Anyone who knows anything about the Mercantile Marine is aware that men may be discharged and out of employment for several months. Some men are luckier than others. That should not continue. Whatever the cause may be, we must afford a real measure of security to those men whom we praise so highly during the war.
    Secondly, we must ensure the very best accommodation. I am quite willing to agree—it is only right to say it—that the shipowners have gone a long way in this matter. There was a time when shipowners were very recalcitrant on this question; they spoke in terms of cost. I think they are more enlightened. Public opinion may have assisted in enlightening them; Debates in this House have been useful. Nevertheless, though there has been a vast improvement, there are still a large number of British vessels that are dirty, verminous and lacking in sanitary conveniences, and certainly not fit for decent sailor men to live in, and the Government are well aware of that.
    Commander Brahner: Old ships rather than newly constructed ones?
    Mr. Shinwell: Of course. I agree that the newer vessels have shown improvements, though they have not been as good as the men might have expected.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker): My hon. Friend does not forget the difficulty of labour and materials?
    Mr. Shinwell: That is obviously a Government reply—
    Mr. Noel-Baker: My hon. Friend must recognise that the Government have given great attention to this question and have done their very best.
    Mr. Shinwell: I was not aware that I was attacking the Government. If I were attacking the Government, I should be saying quite other things. Who would attack my hon. Friend, anyway? He is so mild and so very official that no one would dream of doing it. If some day I find that one of his speeches from that Box imparts a little colour into the proceedings, I shall have a very rude shock. I am not attacking the Government; I quite agree that there have been improvements, and perhaps there would have been a greater measure of improvement if the facilities had been available. All I am saying is that in the ships which are to be constructed in future the best accommodation should be provided.
    I want to say a word about training. We had difficulty before the war in obtaining the number of men necessary to keep up the annual supply for the Mercantile Marine. We overcame that difficulty, but it is clear that after the war, if we are to have an adequate supply of personnel for the Mercantile Marine, we must train the men, and not pick them up as we have done in the past. I hope that to-day the Government will announce their intentions as regards the training of youths for the Mercantile Marine of this country. I want to say a word on the subject of manning. This afforded considerable scope for controversy in pre-war days, when the officers and men of the Mercantile Marine demanded better manning conditions: that more men should be provided on board ship, both above and below decks. During the war it has not been possible to do much in that connection, but I hope that the Government are giving the subject their attention. There are a great many other matters affecting the conditions of the men, but I think I have said sufficient to justify the claim that there is need for considerable improvement.

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    All I want to say in conclusion is that, in spite of all I have said about the unpleasant features of the present position, about the possibility of intense competition after the war, about the loss of our supremacy on the high seas, I am optimistic about the future, for these reasons. First, I believe that much that has been said by American spokesmen about the future of the American Mercantile Marine disregards certain important factors. One is the high cost of shipbuilding in the United States. No vessel of even moderate dimensions can be built in the United States, speaking in terms of our own currency, under about £400,000. That is far in excess of costs in this country. In addition, there is the high cost of seafaring labour. That is why Americans who speak for the Mercantile Marine are talking of subsidies; there is no other way. We can build ships. We have the best skill in the world, the best technicians in the world, the best craftsmen in the world, if only they get an opportunity. I hope that they will have an opportunity after this war is over, not only immediately after the war, when there may be a boom, but for many years after the war, when there may be unemployment. We can hold our own on the high seas, if we get a fair chance and if we frustrate the efforts of the individualists, who want to put their own considerations before those which primarily concern the nation.
    Obviously, there must be greater enterprise. Even if there is a possibility of international co-operation, we cannot rely on that alone. We must be more efficient. I do not mean that in the sense of efficiency in administering the Mercantile Marine, because I do not think that any charge could be laid at the doors of the shipowners on the ground of inefficiency. They know how to administer the Mercantile Marine in their own interests. We have to consider it from a national standpoint, and I mean efficiency from a national standpoint. We were losing much ground before the war, we have lost a great deal during the war; after the war we must recover the ground we have lost. I think that I have put the case temperately, and that I have not overcharged it. There is no desire in this House to attack the Government extravagantly, but there is a desire, on both sides, to extract from the Government some
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    indication of what their plans are, of what their schemes are, for this industry.
    Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: I have listened, as I always do, with the greatest attention to the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) on this subject. He has made very notable contributions during the war on the general problem of the Mercantile Marine, and, if I may say so, he has given in a very broad, admirable review of the situation. I desire to speak briefly on one particular type of British shipping, the type of ship referred to by the late Mr. Rudyard Kipling as the "dirty old coaster," always an important part of the British Mercantile Marine. In spite of constant bombing on the East coast, in spite of the depredations of the enemy in what is known as E-boat alley, in spite of a German order of the day in July, 1940, in which the then German naval commander-in-chief announced that, with their new motor torpedo boats, they were going to seal up the Thames estuary, and therefore the Port of London, for nearly four years the coastal steamers have supplied London River and the Port of London day in and day out. That might well have been impossible had the Mercantile Marine been supplied with less resolute men in the officers and in the deck hands.
    I want to say to the representatives of the Ministry on the Front Bench that I hope they are not going to reward these officers and men by any attempt at this moment to overdrive them. This is a long war. Signs of strain are appearing ill coastal masters and deck hands. They are not easily replaced. For a long time they have turned round in 48 hours in the Port of London and gone straight out to sea again. I hope that no further attempt will be made to speed up the programme without taking this human element into account. I hope that I shall not be misunderstood when I say that it is easy for the official in the Ministry of War Transport to regard his convoy time table in terms of railway trains running on rails with a signal every half-a-mile—not that I do not appreciate the work of the railwaymen. I hope that if anything of this sort is attempted, the Ministry will consult with the Naval Control Officers, including some of the captains of the ships.
    The hon. Member for Seaham referred to conditions. I want to make it clear

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    that, in the remarks I am going to make about conditions, I confine myself to coastal vessels. I was shocked when I returned to the Navy at the beginning of this war to find that conditions in coastal vessels had been practically unaltered, generally speaking, since 1918. In 1943 in many vessels a man who wants to wash in hot water has to pull it up in a bucket from the stokehold. The Parliamentary Secretary, the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker), was good enough to pay a visit to one of the coastal convoy bases, a gesture which was very much appreciated by the officers and men concerned. He was good enough to answer questions, and I think he will agree that he got a great many. He also went on board some of the colliers, at my suggestion. I think he will agree that the adjective necessary to describe those conditions is Shavian: it would be improper to use it in this Committee. I know that the new colliers and coastal vessels now taking to the water show great improvement in the crews' quarters. I know that the Ministry have done their best, and I think that there is an awakening con science among the owners, due to the factors which the hon. Member opposite stressed. The National Maritime Board have also made many representations, hut that Board cannot be other than an imperfect instrument. Whereas the owners' representatives on the Board are static, the representation of the seagoing personnel must be fluid and must vary from meeting to meeting, unless you are going to have union officials who are permanently ashore, and therefore out of touch with seagoing conditions. That is a difficulty for which there is no obvious remedy, but the Board are doing their best, and have made certain improvements.
    We have been told that there is no demand from the officers and men of the Mercantile Marine for some of the things mentioned by the hon. Member opposite. The records of this House will show that when Samuel Plimsoll made his great load-line proposals, the suggestion was met with the argument that there was no demand for it from the seagoing personnel. "No demand" makes no impression on me. We are told that there is no demand for a uniform system; that they would rather carry on as they are. I have made inquiries, and I can assure the Committee that the men will agree to anything which
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    will make for better conditions in the vessels. So far as amenities are concerned, the coastal shipowners have fallen down badly on their job. I am one of those people who support private enterprise when it is working efficiently and humanely. I believe it to be the best system, but there always comes a time when one has to consider whether some form of control is necessary. I know that it is very easy to step outside the bounds of Order and make a remark about something which would require legislation. But one is continually asked by coastal officers and men, "What of the future? Will Parliament Act? What are you going to do for us?" I content myself with saying that I think it probable that this House will have to do for coastal shipping the sort of thing that it has done for factory conditions.
    I am not going to take up further time of the Committee, but I would appeal to hon. Members on all sides to view this matter from the broadest possible aspect, without being tied to those forms of organisation or "isms" which may have affected them in the past. My own view is that some kind of public body is the best solution, laying down some broad provisions. But, in any case, let us tackle it in the spirit of that admirable broadcast which preceded the 9 o'clock news last Sunday, in which a tribute was paid to the men of the Mercantile Marine and in which the point was reiterated, "Let us not forget their services when victory is ours." Let us make practical recognition—not by the passing of resolutions, but on much more concrete lines—of the vital contribution to final victory of those who sail under the Red Ensign.
    Mr. David Adams: There is no one who recognises and admires the magnificent services rendered by the Mercantile Marine of this country during the war, its faithfulness as an ally of the Royal Navy, its services on the Seven Seas and its phenomenal percentage of fatalities who will do other than welcome a Debate of this character. The fear is very often held that we may be faced, as we were after the last war, with a depressed ship-owning and shipbuilding industry. The fact is that there was no depression after the last war. On the contrary, British shipbuilding yards were fully employed in the main on orders of various sorts to last for at least a year or two. Shipping

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    freights were high, and profits were undoubtedly large, but that situation prevailed for a relatively short time. It was shattered by the British Government of that time. The introduction of Reparation tonnage from Germany was the means which we used for the purpose of destroying the value of British tonnage, and Lord Inchcape and three colleagues were employed by the Prime Minister, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) to effect this undesirable change. Anyone who had given due thought to the influence of Reparations would have certainly condemned that policy. It was condemned in shipping circles, and it proved to be the most fertile means of destroying the value of tonnage.
    The Shipping Commission under the chairmanship of Lord Inchcape ordered German tonnage to be brought to this country. When it arrived here much of it was in a damaged condition. It was promptly repaired at the Government charge and placed, not upon a wide market where the highest prices could be obtained in fair and open competition, but upon a restricted market—restricted to British owners or British people. The result of that was that there was a prompt and rapid fall in value, and in a relatively short time the value of the average ship in Britain, apart from liner tonnage, fell from, what it then was at the termination of the war, £34 per dead-weight ton, the amount of charge for building a ship of a modern character, to some £8 10s. per dead-weight ton. The fruits of that policy were that many British firms that did not sell out promptly enough were ruined, and shipyards were cleared of their orders. Shipowners who had ships building paid substantial sums for the cancellation of the orders which they had placed, and, as though a mighty broom had been used, orders were swept out of our British yards everywhere. Skilled workmen were turned on to the streets, shipbuilding ceased, and shipping freights fell from reasonable paying levels to substantially lower than the possibility of profit-making. But the sequel was never reported in this House, and the story ought some day to be told.
    In 1921 the Germans met the French and the British and other Allies for the first time in Paris. The purpose was to
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    fix a reasonable price for German tonnage that had been taken forcibly from them as Reparations for the Allies, and the German shipowners and representatives proved beyond question that a reasonable price for their tonnage was 20 per dead-weight ton. Thereafter the British Government agreed to the compensation of German shipowners at a price of £20 per dead-weight ton. When Lord Inchcape decided, what he should have done at the commencement if it was intended to seize German Reparation tonnage, to leave them open to the markets of the world, it was altogether too late. The German shipowners who had been advised by their Government that they could buy tonnage up to £20 per dead-weight ton came in and purchased from British shipowners and from Lord Inchcape large quantities of this tonnage at from £8 to £10 a ton, while they were credited with 20 per deadweight ton.
    That was the cause of the depression in British shipowning after the last war. If we had not perpetrated that rank folly, I believe that the shipping business and world trade would have been prosperous for many years to come. I am convinced that with world demands, much in excess of those of the last war, which will ensue after this war, world trade will boom for several years to come, and it will be the business of the Government to restrict these booms to limited proportions, whether it be in regard to freights or with regard to a proper shipbuilding policy. It is well known that at least Members of the party to which I belong, in the days of depression, pressed the Government to engage in shipbuilding, if it were only to retain our personnel, the high quality and standard of which was admitted everywhere. But the Presidents of the Board of Trade that we respectfully and respectively interviewed were adamant against engaging in any such Socialistic enterprise, with the result that British shipowning fell to the low levels that have been mentioned by the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell).
    As far as the future is concerned, I disagree with certain findings of the hon. Member. As an ex-practical shipowner, it is a delusion to imagine that what Britain requires is merely a number of fast motor ships. Comparing the cost of building the ordinary coal burner, with a

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    speed of 11¼ knots, with that of the motor boat, with a speed of from 15 to 17 knots, it is all in favour of the coal burner, and the carrying capacity of these vessels is well exceeded by the cheaper vessel. While the period of transit on the high seas may be longer, yet the profitable undertaking of the old coal burner as against the oil burner for the transatlantic trade and shore trades with the West coast of Italy, Norway, Russia, the Atlantic, the Baltic and elsewhere is well in favour—and practical shipowners advise that—of the cheaper and somewhat slower vessel. State control certainly ought to be continued for some period at least after the war. Perhaps in the nature of things, being a capitalist country, a suggestion that it might be wise to nationalise, which could readily be done, certain liner trades is perhaps a sound one and certainly worth the attention of this Committee.
    With regard to the seafarer, I agree that, just as we ought and must hereafter preserve the skill and capacity of our shipyards by the retention of these in shipbuilding for Government account where shipowners are not able or are unwilling or because the freight mark is too low to induce them to place orders for shipping, we must carefully preserve the personnel of the British Mercantile Marine. The present system of a pool of all who have served at sea and who are willing now to go to sea available for the shipping industry is admirable, but unless you can retain these men by payment during the time they are unemployed, the scheme cannot possibly succeed. It ought not to be too costly a scheme owing to the fact that you will have your labour available at any time and your vessels will not be held up in search for some of the lower-graded personnel. This has often happened during the war and should be avoided in future.
    I feel optimistic with regard to the future of British shipowning. There may be an overwhelming ownership in the United States of America, but that has happened before. I am not satisfied that the United States Government will feel that it is desirable, merely to have the pleasure of having a Mercantile Marine, to continue paying heavy subsidies to preserve it. The fact that Great Britain will compete with this cheaper tonnage, with its lower paid—not relative)—personnel working these ships,
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    is sufficient to justify the nations for whom we have largely been carriers being satisfied that Great Britain is a mercantile nation and, for many reasons, should therefore be selected and be the agreed nation to carry the major portion of the tonnage of the world. I am certain that that will ultimately ensue without the intervention of the British Government or protests that America is unduly subsidising its tonnage.
    With that belief I am satisfied that the Mercantile Marine of Britain can play a magnificent part in the economic development of not only this country but the rest of the civilised world. As regards air tonnage, British shipowners are certainly considering the desirability of air fleets, although at the present moment all that is contemplated is that the more costly goods might be carried by air. Whether the Government are alert to it or not, I am glad to think that the shipping industry is quite alive to the idea of aerial fleets. We may look to some substantial development in that direction through the enterprise of British shipowners with the advice—and not necessarily the monetary assistance of the Government. I am one of those who believe that, notwithstanding the greater development of communications, there are many other nations, with British owners, technicians, shipbuilders and the like, which are thoroughly alive to the possibilities of air transport in the future. That being so, I am quite satisfied that the future is, indeed, bright.
    Sir Robert Rankin: I am glad that this Debate on shipping, which might be said to be overdue, has been arranged, because I believe that the present condition of British shipping, our greatest industry, can only be understood by those who have a certain knowledge of the past, for the decline of the industry can be traced to the period after the last war. By 1925 the lead gained before 1914 had disappeared; wages were the governing factor in all maritime countries. Countries with high standards of living went in for nationalised shipping supported by heavy subsidies and, if they could, reserved trade for themselves. With the exception of the Dutch West Indies, there was no coastal or inter-Colonial trade which could be kept for our competitors which was not closed to

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    British shipping. Those countries which had not purchasing power of their own to enable them to divert cargoes to their own vessels went in for wage cuts. Countries with a low standard of living and cheap employment were in a very different position from that of the British nation. Finally, there were wholesale breaches of Conventions. International agreements governing conditions at sea, such as safety of life, the load line and so on, had been passed by the majority of maritime nations, but only a few conformed to them. A steamer, for instance, might regularly arrive in this country with more than 320 tons more cargo from the River Plate, under a foreign flag instead of a British flag. The reason was that we had no jurisdiction over foreigners beyond the three-mile limit. An alien steamer needed only to show her Plimsoll line on arriving at a British port, by which time she had burnt her coal or oil, whereas a British ship had to allow for cargo bunkers, stores and water and have her load line always visible, no matter in what part of the world she was trading.
    One might ask why this state of affairs was not combated by the British Government. The answer is that there was apathy. The state of British shipping was of no interest politically or to the country and conditions went from bad to worse, particularly with regard to cargo steamers. The climax came in 1934, when British shipowners were forced, very greatly against their will, to ask the Government for a subsidy. After much negotiation they were given £2,000,000 a year, but it was hedged about with two administrative conditions. First, there was to be no dissipation of the subsidy by competition, and this simply meant that their competitors were stabilised in their gains. Secondly, they were required to form agreements in order to preserve the status quo with their competitors. Together with this procedure an astonishing plan was forced on the industry. The scrap and build scheme which was in force from 1934 to 1937 was, as was described by a shipowner, Mr. Watts, lunacy, because the Government would help owners to build new steamers only if they scrapped two tons of old shipping for one ton of new. At that time the Admiralty were preparing to rebuild the British Navy while the Government were encouraging,
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    in effect, the gradual elimination of the Mercantile Marine. At the start of this war the Admiralty and the Merchant Service struggled to get good seamen, because obviously the supply was limited. Some neutrals hurried off to safe and good trade, particularly to that which was vacated by British vessels which had to go on war service. Other neutrals were asking fantastic rates and conditions for the hire of their steamers.
    Then the fatal consequences of the scrap and build scheme became apparent, because the Government were buying anything that would float in order to make good our deficiencies. When Allied Governments came to this country after the invasion of their own countries the majority had no sources of income with which to maintain their sovereign status other than the earnings of their ships. It was felt that they should be made independent but the result is that the rates of hire paid to them for their steamers are above those paid for British steamers. That does not, however, imply that the rates paid to them as Allies are as high as the rates paid to them when they were neutrals. It is general knowledge that Allied seamen are receiving more wages than British seamen. Thus there is a differentiation between British and Allied owners in respect of hire and British and Allied seamen in regard to rates of pay. There is also more than a suspicion that the replacement agreements are not identical. The Government have laid it down that part of the war risk insurance recoveries shall be withheld from owners until replacement, but the Government will not now allow shipowners to buy vessels which have been allocated to them for management, whereas the Allies can and do buy ships which have been allocated to them. It is hard to understand why there is this bias against British owners. At the present time other nations have the best of all worlds from the Government, namely, preferential terms in regard to replacement, higher terms of hire and better charter party conditions. British shipowners have raised this matter time and again, but have always been met with the suggestion that questions of high policy are involved. I submit that it would be more satisfactory if this policy were explained to them and the Committee.

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    The British Mercantile Marine is greatly exercised about post-war conditions and prospects. It has been through more bad times than any other industry. No other commercial industry has been subjected in the same way to 100 per cent. foreign competition. The present position is that many British steamers are on lend-lease, whereas in the United States merchant ships are being completed. The policy seems to be that British yards are concentrating more and more on warships, whereas in America the industry is mainly concentrating on the production of merchant shipping. The Government have consistently refused to make any declaration that there will be an adequate Mercantile Marine at the end of this war. It is also understood that a member of the War Cabinet has declared that there will inevitably be a smaller Mercantile Marine at the end of this war than before. That can only mean one thing—a repetition of the neglect which the industry received after the last war. The vital importance of the Merchant Navy in the post-war world is not generally appreciated. We are hoping that there will be no economic warfare but if there is such a conflict, and we have no adequate ship-borne transport to carry our exports and imports, then any foreign cartel which controls shipping could take our life blood from us.
    I would like to point out, in conclusion, that the shipping industry, which has helped to save this country during the war, has been built up by private enterprise. The management and control of shipping are of extreme complexity. Each individual trade and route brings its own problems, to which not only shipowners and merchants but also freight and loading brokers and forwarding agents have to make their special contributions. I do not myself believe that the State through civil servants, without previous knowledge of the industry and without the personal stimulus of competition, could operate with equal efficiency. Speaking as one who has no financial interest in shipping and whose private firm sailed merchant ships before the Battle of Trafalgar was fought, I would hate to see the disappearance of private enterprise. I trust that through public companies and private firms, of which there are only too few at the present, the Government, with the accord of all parties in this House, will give favourable support in the difficult years which are to
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    come to the Mercantile Marine. It has served the nation well. The sacrifices which have been made by officers, engineers, seamen and firemen of the Merchant Navy who have given their lives in this war should not have been made in vain.
    Commander Galbraith: I feel that the whole Committee will agree that the Debate was opened by the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) in a very well reasoned speech, one with which I agree to a very considerable extent, but when it comes to a question of the nationalisation of shipping he and I part company altogether, because if there is one industry that is utterly unsuitable for nationalisation, it is shipping, and anyone who goes into the matter of shipping in all its complexity cannot fail to come to that conclusion. What interests me about the hon. Member's suggestion is that he takes the easy part and leaves the risks of the tramp industry to be taken by the private individual. He wants to take what has taken generations to work up by private industry arid leave anything in which there is a risk to private owners. Who is going to benefit from nationalisation? Will the consumer benefit, is the employer to benefit? We never hear a word of these things.
    The Deputy-Chairman (Mr. Charles Williams): Nationalisation is not the subject of this Debate. I mean that it cannot be the main objective of a speech but only an illustration.
    Commander Galbraith: I agree to your Ruling, Mr. Williams, but the matter was introduced by the opener of the Debate. I have no intention of making it the main theme of my speech, but it seemed to me that some reply to the hon. Member was called for.
    Mr. Robertson: On a point of Order. The hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwc11) definitely made that the main theme of his speech, according to my impression, and I submit that Members on this side must have an opportunity of replying to it, otherwise the Debate has no meaning at all.
    The Deputy-Chairman: I was not in the Chair at the beginning of the Debate. I understand that we are perfectly in Order in discussing the control

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    of shipping by the Government to-day and in suggesting that it may be well to carry on that control for a further period, but, as I understand it, we are not in Order in making the main subject of a Debate which concerns a vast quantity of things in connection with shipping and not the question of whether nationalisation is right or wrong.
    Commander Galbraith: The hon. Member's arguments seemed to be self-destructive. He spoke of the efficiency of British owners, but he was going to replace them by someone whom he did not specify. It would be interesting to know who these persons are to be. The hon. Member also spoke of fast ships, and it seemed to me that he was suggesting that private owners were slack and behind the times in not producing fast ships, but the question is whether we are building for peace or for war. If we are building for war, fast ships are naturally essential, but if we are building for peace, it is the economic ship that we require, and it seems to me that if the Government insist on having fast ships, they will have to meet the additional cost which those ships demand. The hon. Member also spoke of there being too many small units in the industry. The whole strength and life of the shipping industry comes from these small units, which provide an opportunity to young men of initiative to go in for shipowning on their own, which gives drive to the whole industry. If the hon. Member is going to do away with these small units, he is going greatly to interfere with the whole efficiency of the industry.
    I have always felt that if there is any one industry more than another which deserves the gratitude of the country, it is the shipowning industry, on which in times of peace the prosperity of the country so very greatly depends and without which in time of war we could certainly not continue to exist. The years between the two wars were not normal years. Trade did not boom except for short and restricted periods, and slumps in international trade were frequent and severe, and were the rule rather than the exception. During the whole of that time we had to contend with unfair foreign competition, which continually grew in strength, and by that I mean competition subsidised by foreign Governments. The industry had to face these conditions with
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    out adequate support from the Government, and that resulted in many companies being unable to cover their depreciation and the employment of officers and men being haphazard in the extreme. Enclosed waters such as the Clyde were full of idle ships, and we were allowing ourselves to be driven off the seas, yet the Government stood aside and allowed men and ships essential to our security to waste in idleness. I feel that these are conditions which the country will not tolerate again.
    In that connection I would say that where an essential industry finds itself in difficulties as the result of conditions over which it has no control, particularly when those conditions arise out of the deliberate policy of foreign Governments our Government must take action even to the imposition of sanctions of one kind or another. In the pre-war years we failed to do so; in the post-war era we must not fail, for then more than ever before British industry will require a fair field in which to operate. It speaks volumes for the efficiency of British shipowners that in spite of these difficulties they managed to maintain their fleets at such strength as has actually enabled us to meet the demands of war. Since the war began the industry has been the main prop in our defence. Even before the war it placed itself unreservedly at the disposal of the Government, and owners have operated under Government instructions and have accepted Government conditions of hire with the utmost loyalty. There is no tribute too high for us to pay to the officers and men who man those ships; their courage and endurance have been beyond all praise and the wonder and admiration of all thinking people.
    I feel, however, that it is to the future that we should look, particularly at this time. It is realised on every hand that an adequate Mercantile Marine is essential to our survival. How is that to be achieved? I should like to consider first of all the human factor, for that is not the least important for without a contented personnel I do not see that any industry can operate efficiently. The shipping industry is very fortunate in having at its disposal the National Maritime Board, which I believe to be the most efficient and successful of all industrial councils. The final test of harmonious and effective relations in any industry is surely the absence of strikes or

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    resort to outside arbitration. Since the inception of the Board in 1919 there has been no strike and no resort to arbitration. These facts are, in themselves, a tribute to the success of the work of the Board. If other tributes are required, they are to be found in the unreserved praise which Government after Government have paid to their work. Besides the Board's greatest achievement in maintaining happy relations between employer and employed, it has to its credit a number of very great advances. It succeeded in reaching agreement with the Ministry of War Transport on the question of the construction and equipment of crew quarters. A statutory food scale was recently introduced as the result of its proposals, and its recommendations regarding the comfort and cleanliness of crew spaces have been adopted. In the matter of wages they succeeded by agreement in obtaining very great advances in 1936, 1938 and again in 1940. They have been responsible for the introduction of a general pension scheme for all officers and for the substitution of the three-watch for the two-watch system. That is a record of which the whole industry may well be proud. It is a record of such value to the country that I feel that this Board must be allowed to function in post-war years as in the past free from all Government control.
    To the outsider looking at this industry one of the most unsatisfactory features has been, particularly in the tramp section, and to a lesser degree in the cargo liner section, the casual nature of the employment offered. Men signed on for the round voyage, and on the ship's return to a United Kingdom port they were discharged, and they might never again serve with the same line or the same owners. They remained ashore without pay until such time as their savings were exhausted, when perforce they had to find another ship, or until they felt inclined to do so. The inefficiency and waste of such arrangements in war-time, with the resulting difficulty in finding crews as and when required, led in 1941 to the coming into being of the Merchant Navy Reserve Pool, concurrently with the industry being taken under the Essential Work Order. The coming into being of these arrangements was due to a great extent to the work of the National Maritime Board. It revolutionised the conditions of employment for seafaring people. While men were prohibited from leaving
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    the industry, they were assured of pay and adequate leave between engagements. The casual nature of the employment had been removed from the industry.
    Control and management of that pool are vested in the Shipping Federation, which works in the closest co-operation with the officers' societies and with the National Union of Seamen, and it is due to that harmonious co-operation that the pool has met with such complete success, which has enabled us to meet efficiently and smoothly the manning requirements of our shipping. Naturally no one would desire that in days of peace men should be prohibited from leaving any industry, but, that apart, it seems to me that continuity of employment should continue and that the industry should not go back to those casual conditions of which I have spoken. I believe that is the wish and desire of all concerned—owners, officers and ratings.
    The question of finance is however a big one, and I believe the Government ought to assist. The present position is that the owners pay the administration costs of the Pool in the United Kingdom, while the Government pay the Pool outgoings, that is, the Pool pay travelling expenses, and lodging allowances. If the industry, as it desires, is in the future to provide continuity of employment, it would not be fair to ask it to bear the full cost itself. That would be to inflict upon it a double burden, for, like all other industries, shipping contributes to the Unemployment Fund. If the industry is in future to carry a large share of its own unemployment—and that is substantially what the continuation of the Pool would mean I would suggest that the Government should pay into a Pool fund a sum bearing some relationship to the contribution which the industry makes to the Unemployment Fund. What we want at sea is the very best we have to offer. If we want to have them they must have the very best conditions. The National Maritime Board has already established higher rates of pay and better living conditions, and I have no doubt that in future they will make further improvements as the condition of the industry warrants. If we add to these improvements continuity of employment, then at last will the sea offer an attractive and stable career. It is in that hope that I would ask the Government to give

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    generous financial support and so enable the Pool to continue, for that to my mind is in the best interests not only of the industry but of the country. On the side of personnel this industry can fairly claim that it has proved itself entirely capable of self-government.
    I will now turn to what I would call the financial or the business side of the industry. I indicated earlier that the years between the two wars with few exceptions were years of depression. Following on the last war owners acquired tonnage from the Government at the Government's request, it being put to the industry that it was their patriotic duty to do so at very greatly inflated prices. The low freights ruling in the period did not enable the industry to set aside sufficient funds out of current earnings to enable them to write the values of those ships down to economic levels. They were unable to accumulate reserves so that they could replace tonnage as it became obsolete. On top of that they have had more losses.
    For the purpose of war risks insurance British shipping was valued shortly before the commencement of the war. That valuation was in general fair, and the increases which have subsequently been granted are sufficient in the liner section of the industry to enable replacements to be made at the prices which were ruling up to about 12 months ago. In the tramp section of the industry the situation is not SO satisfactory. It appears that there will inevitably be a gap between insurance recoveries and the cost of new tonnage, and that apart altogether from the fact that in the tramp section in particular there are heavy arrears of depreciation which have still to be made good.
    For the safety of the country our total post-war tonnage must be retained at least at the pre-war level. It is difficult to see how that is to be achieved when, as a result of bad trade, owners have been unable to build up reserves and when insurance recoveries fall short of replacement costs. Indeed the situation which faces the industry is simply that while replacement is essential funds are not available in the industry to carry it out. The Government will require to come in and bridge the gap either by loans secured on mortgage over the vessels at low rates of interest, as was envisaged in the British
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    Shipping Assistance Bill of 1939, or by some other method agreed between the Government and the industry.
    I suggest that assistance of that nature would not be unreasonable because, after all, shipping is essential to the defence of the country, that the industry finds itself in difficulties through circumstances over which it had no control, and during the war the rates of hire, taken in conjunction with losses, are insufficient to enable funds to be accumulated. By that I mean that if one has a fleet of 10 ships the normal rates of depreciation allow one to replace one ship every two years. If as a result of war losses the fleet becomes only five ships, one will be able to replace only one ship every four years. And here let it be remembered that the question of replacement is not a question of gradual replacement, but of replacement in the shortest possible space of time after the conclusion of hostilities. That greatly aggravates the whole problem. In that conection I would like to put a question to the Parliamentary Secretary. Why should not owners who have contracted to buy ships from the Government under the disposal scheme have the ships transferred to them at once instead of at some indefinite date after the cessation of hostilities? The Government's policy of retaining ships in their own ownership and merely giving them to owners to manage at very modest fees, which are inadequate to more than cover their expenses and out of which nothing can be set aside, is not at all helpful to the industry; whereas if the ships were transferred to the owners depreciation charges would begin to run at once, and funds for replacement would accumulate. It is impossible to-day to tell the scale on which we will have to replace shipping after the war. So far as the passenger liners are concerned the whole thing is bound up in the future of civil aviation and the Government's policy in that direction. Until that policy is announced no programme can be laid down. I want to plead that the liner companies should be given an opportunity to take their place in the management of post-war civil aviation. They have behind them three generations of experience in the handling of passenger traffic. They have at their disposal full statistical records of seasonal traffic throughout the world. They also have a world-wide network of agencies. In these circumstances it would not only be uneconomic but even criminal if they

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    were to be excluded from the development of this great new industry to which they can bring such a wealth of experience. I am told in regard to the situation of the cargo liners that as far as one can see at the moment about one third of their prewar tonnage will have to be replaced after the war, and that without taking into account any increase which may well be anticipated in this section if backward countries are to be developed, as was envisaged in the Atlantic Charter and as also appeared in a paper which has recently been issued by the United States National Resources Planning Board entitled "A Post-war Plan and Programme for the United States of America."
    The whole future of shipping rests on the Government's policy. The industry cannot plan ahead until that policy is known. On the other hand, I rather imagine that the Government's policy depends on what agreements they can make with our Allies. It is hoped that these agreements are well forward in the course of development. What we want—and the hon. Member for Seaham stressed this point strongly—is that the industry should know at the earliest possible moment what the Government's policy is to be. I would suggest that they should specifically indicate the part which the industry is to play in civil aviation, the assistance which it may expect in regard to replacements and the continuation of the pool, and what steps they intend to take to eliminate unfair competition. There is another matter on which I also suggest information should be given. What is the Government going to do about the stabilisation of freights, if anything? By international agreement it should be possible at least to fix minimum rates of freights so as to prevent these slumps that have been so disastrous to the industry in the past. These freights might well be arranged so as to leave a fair field for competition and a reward for efficiency.
    This great industry only requires a fair deal. It neither requires nor desires a subsidy, and it certainly does not need to be controlled. It only needs to be allowed to work out its own salvation. It has proved itself quite capable of managing its own affairs, and I would say to the Government that if they will give it a fair field in which to operate I am convinced that the nation in the future as in the past will receive from it that economic and efficient service which only a free and contented industry can give.
    Mr. Logan: Coming from the Merseyside, I must pay my tribute to the wonderful manner in which the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) brought this subject before the Committee. The sailors of our country owe him a debt of gratitude, and I pay that tribute, because on the Merseyside this is our special problem. It is a great problem for the Ministry, but I do not think the question which has been asked to-day should be as problematical as it would appear to be on the surface. The purpose of the Debate, as I understand it, is to ask the Ministry to let us know what they intend to do with shipping. Is it to be maintained after the war, for a period as it is to-day, or what changes, if any, are to take place? It would occur to one to go back in one's mind to the period when Liverpool and the other great shipping ports had to suffer the results of the inefficiency and want of forethought on the part of Ministers. The period 1914–18 brought many problems to the shipping centres, and none greater than the problem of the dispersal of our merchant seamen, and therefore I do not give a tinker's damn—(HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] I think that is Parliamentary. If anybody can explain what the term means, they may be out of Order, but I do not want to know what it means.
    Mr. Montague: It is good Shakespeare, anyway.
    Mr. Logan: The destitution that we saw in our great ports after the Great War calls for action now on the part of the responsible Minister. He should let us know, not what was done yesterday, but what the Government intend to do in the future, because that is of primary importance to these men who "go down to the sea in ships." Looking back on the past and on the problem which then confronted us, though it was then on a smaller scale, I will tell the Minister from my actual experience what happened in those days. Sitting on a Poor Law committee in Liverpool, it was my unhappy privilege to have before me some of the ratings from the Merchant Service of Liverpool, and I was never more surprised in my life than when there came before the committee one day a ship's captain. His three years' savings had all gone and even with his training—he had had a secondary school and university education—he stood as a pauper before that committee in

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    Liverpool to ask for relief. It was most nauseating. We had before us men of the Merchant Service who had gone down to the sea in ships, who had sailed out of the port of Liverpool risking their lives and now had to stand in a queue to seek relief because there was no employment for them. Any officer in this House today will know that in many cases masters and chiefs of many of the greatest shipping lines sailed out of the port of Liverpool as common seamen because they were not able to get the type of job to which their rank entitled them.
    I hear great shipping interests asking how they are going to be treated. What we ought to be concerned with here is the common good of all and what is for the benefit of the whole nation. The Minister responsible must avoid the mistakes of the past and place before Parliament better plans for the future. We hear flowery speeches and rhetoric about our men who sail the Seven Seas, and the wonderful services rendered by our captains and first mates, but I want to know what security we shall have to offer them when the war is over—not only the captains, but all down to the lowest rank on board. What security of employment shall we provide for them in the future as a tax, as a cost, on this industry? To me it is the personnel who are of primary importance, not any shipowner or shipowners. I am more interested in flesh and blood than in the question of dividends. Dividends are very nice, but today we have been paying the price of dividends. When I see the loss of life that is going on, when I hear of men coming home after having been torpedoed two, three or four times, and still ready to give their lives in defence of this country, I want to know what we are going to do to see that in the general interest we organise the shipping industry for the benefit of the nation. All ranks in the nation, men of all creeds and parties, demand that these men who sail down to the sea in ships shall not suffer the want and penury they endured in the past.
    Any industry, whether shipping or any other, that is not able to make proper provision for those whom it employs, has failed in its responsibility. The first call upon any business is that of the personnel engaged in it. Unless we have decent homes we cannot have decent families, unless we have decent wages we cannot
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    have contented people, and if we are to have a new era this nation has to rise to the occasion through its representatives here, not shirking responsibility but accepting responsibility for these men who have sacrificed so much for our welfare and given us so much peace and comfort in this war. When peace and security come I do not want to find people taking things easily and saying, "It is not my responsibility; I am not my brother's keeper." That has been said in the past, but surely we are not going to live the past over again.
    Members of our own party are now sitting on the Benches opposite. Why are they there? They were placed on the other side of the House that they might form part and parcel of the Government, to work in the interests of this nation and to show that in this crisis men of all parties in the British Parliament were united in one common effort. No matter who may sit on those Benches, whether Labour or the orthodox form of Government, they have no right to sit there unless they have the support of the people outside. The people demand that their voices shall be heard, and we ought to back the hon. Member for Seaham in the case which he put forward, in a most cautious fashion and diplomatically, avoiding the breaking of the Rules, getting over them very nicely with the dexterity of an old Parliamentary hand, just as you, Mr. Williams, used to do when you were sitting on this side of the House.
    The Deputy-Chairman: Order. I do not think the past of any Member is really relevant to the present Debate.
    Mr. Logan: I do not wish to say anything that might be considered to be a reprimand on the Chair. I must not speak of the past, because I dare not speak upon your past, and mine would not bear speaking about. I do not wish to say anything for which the Chair could call me to Order, but I would be perfectly in Order to speak of my own past.
    The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Member will have noticed that I said "the past of any Member," and that I deliberately avoided connecting the remarks in any way with any past that I may have had.
    Mr. Logan: I always take your admonitions in good part, Mr. Williams. You are perfectly justified in what you have

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    said. I do not wish to lose the trend of what I have been talking about, though I like these interruptions as much as anybody, and what I wish to do is to appeal to the Minister, because I know that a Minister who has come from our Benches will deal with the matter in the sympathetic way that one from these Benches must deal with any matters with which he is so intimate. I want to put the question which was put by the hon. Member for Seaham and ask the Government what they intend to do for shipping. Is it possible to give us an outline of what the conditions will be after the war, and for how long they are going to continue, whether for a year or two years, or for how long? Has that matter been considered? I have heard a great deal about the building of ships, but the question of personnel is of greater importance than the building of ships. We must have the men to man our ships, and unless conditions are favourable we are not likely to get them, and if industry here is going to bustle up I do not know that there will be such a demand for men to man our ships as there was in the past. I have lived in Liverpool all my life, 70 years, and I pretty well know the dockside, and all the stories of sea shanties, and of the taking of men from courts and alleys there, and of their "taking sea jumps." The men only went to sea when they were down and out, and I do not want to see any of the down-and-out business in connection with our seamen. They used to go to the moneylenders or to the pawnbrokers. They only had a matter of 30s. to carry them on for a week, and when they came back after a month's trip they were in debt, even although they had been working, and they had to seek Poor Law relief.
    After my 12 years' experience in this House, I want to know what the Government's policy is, in regard to the shipping industry. Is it possible for the Government to deal with the sailor—in which term I include everybody, from the captain downwards—in such a way that his wages will be sufficient and that he will be safeguarded from destitution? Can we have a subsidy that will remove the poverty of the sailor and guarantee, when he is ill, that his income will still be available for his home and his family, so that he will not have to seek poor relief? These men have been prepared to risk their lives in our hour of danger;
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    we should therefore make provision for them, and whether the subsidy is to the men or to the shipowners, I do not care, so long as the result is the same. Can we not have a Minister of Transport who will give us a full statement about the future of shipping? I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport to let people know what responsibility is carried by the shipping industry, and that it is of the first importance that the men who work on our docks and in the industry should have proper status. Let him get a tip from the Minister of Labour and give the men proper reserve pay, so that they will have security in their homes. By doing these things he will make a name for himself in labour annals.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker): I join with my hon. Friend who has just spoken, and whose speech I greatly enjoyed, and with other hon. Members, in expressing my gratitude to my hon. Friend the Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) for initiating this Debate, and thus performing a very useful service. No member of my Ministry or of the Government would deny that in war-time the Merchant Navy is the key to security against defeat, and that in peace-time its carrying trade is the greatest of our export industries and the foundation on which our social progress and industrial greatness has been built. Shipping is a national interest which far transcends the sectional and material interests of those who own, operate and sail the ships. Hon. Members have already paid their tribute to the services which the Merchant seamen have rendered to the nation in the last four years, and I must do the same.
    The officers and men of the Merchant Navy are civilians, but they have been the target of Hitler's most vicious and most sustained attack. You would think that only a lunatic could hope for stormy weather in the North Atlantic if he had to cross it in a small or medium-sized vessel, built for tropic seas, yet the bravest seamen have often wished for gales, with all the difficulty and danger they would bring, because those conditions would make it harder for Nazi submarines to hit their trail. Even the bravest of them were sorry to leave the bridge, however black the night or cold the wind, because

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    they felt they might be trapped below if a torpedo caught them while they were asleep. Despite this unceasing conflict and unceasing strain for 46 long months of war, Mr. Jarman, the seamen's leader, can proudly claim that there has not been one case of a British crew objecting to a voyage because of danger. They have not only faced danger but they have had adventures of a most incredible kind: A crew cast away on Devil's Island escaped to Australia and went to sea again; a crew landed in rafts in Africa and were nursed back to health in very primitive kraal; a crew was cast away on a deserted island in the Arctic Circle.
    It is not of these things, their battles, dangers and adventures, that seamen like to talk. The stories they like are about how they got their cargoes home: of a vessel with 250 holes near and below the water line made by bomb splinters and of how they plugged every one and saved the vessel and cargo; of a ship with an immense rent torn in its side by a torpedo, navigated precariously 200 miles to a Pacific island, where the crew cut down trees and made planks and patched up the rent, and so brought their cargo safely home; of a tanker cut in two, one half sunk and the other half towed L000 miles back to the Tyne, where a new second half was built and joined on. The heroism and bravery of this Service can be measured by the fact that its members have already had more than 4,000 naval and civil decorations and awards, including four G.C's, 17 D.S.O's, 144 D.S.C's, and others too numerous to mention, while there are more medals and more awards to come. At this present moment, hundreds of merchant vessels, manned by many thousands of their officers and men, are in the front of the front line, and, together with Allied Merchant Navies, to whose services we can never pay enough homage, they have played a major part in the invasion of Europe which has just begun.
    While operations are in progress, I cannot of course reveal the numbers of ships or the numbers of the troops they carry, or the tonnage of armaments and supplies, but I can say that under the Red Ensign a vast stream of stores and equipment has gone in recent weeks to Africa, that large vessels have been converted into troopships and others to the carrying
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    of tanks and guns, and have been loaded secretly in British ports and sailed direct from home to the shores of Sicily. I can say that great passenger liners have been converted to carry the assault barges and other landing craft and that, for the second time in eight months, the Merchant Navy have been in at a mighty landing operation which the military experts have always thought the most hazardous and difficult in the art of war. When we talk of the future of the Merchant Navy we must never forget these men. We must never forget that if they had failed us, we should certainly have gone down before the Nazis. We must never forget that we owe them a debt which it is a national obligation to repay.
    In this Debate, therefore, there are two basic propositions on which I think every hon. Member is agreed. The first is that, for us, the Merchant Navy is a vital national interest and will remain so in peace-time as it is in war. The second is that to the officers and men we have made pledges that we are bound in honour to carry out. Those propositions the Government fully and unreservedly accept. In large part the two propositions overlap. Someone has said that the merchant seamen are afraid of nothing but unemployment; certainly it is true that whenever I have to meet them it is not very long before they begin to ask what is to happen to them when the war is over. What is the future of the Merchant Navy going to be? That question brings me to the main declaration of Government policy, which I have been authorised to make to-day.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Sea-ham asked me whether the Government had had the question of the Merchant Navy under consideration. I answer: Yes, we have, for long and with great care. The main part of my declaration, apart from details with which I will deal, consists of three basic principles on which the action of the Government will be founded. The first of them answers my hon. Friend the Member for the Scotland Division (Mr. Logan). It is that this country must—I ask the Committee to observe the word "must"—continue to serve the world with a large and efficient Mercantile Marine. The word "must" is fundamental. It governs all the rest. It declares the general object of our policy which we are determined to achieve.

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    Secondly, His Majesty's Government will be prepared to collaborate with other like-minded Governments in establishing conditions under which the shipping of the world can be efficiently and economically carried on. It is plain to anyone who thinks about it that shipping is and must be an international affair. There are more than 60 nations engaged, in some degree, in international trade. The major shipping nations number nine or 10, and on the nature of their co-operation or their competition the efficiency and the economy of shipping must evidently depend. The third is that when the Government speak of the efficiency of the Merchant Navy they include in that term the best attainable conditions of employment for the officers and men who are now serving the country so well. I hope that hon. Members will take that declaration of principles as seriously as the Government intend them. I hope they will recognise that, within the limits of general principles, what I have said is both a programme and a pledge, a programme to which the Government are committed and a pledge by which they are bound, and from which they will have in future no desire to recede.
    I must try to show the Committee how we believe that those principles and policy can in practice be applied. Hon. Members have said a good deal about the mistakes and blunders of the Government, the shipowners and the shipbuilders in the years between the wars. No doubt Governments and others in many countries did make many blunders in those unhappy years. It is no part of my present task to defend or to explain what was done or left undone. If we look back over the history of the last 30 years, it is plain that the major causes of disaster to British shipping lay outside the sphere of shipping policy proper. They were slumps and wars. Let me give the Committee a very few simple figures which show this point. Between 1914 and the end of 1918, the total tonnage of British ocean-going ships was reduced by 25 per cent. In June, 1914, the United Kingdom share of world shipping was nearly 42 per cent.; by June, 1919, it was only 34 per cent. In 1913, the United Kingdom was building close on 2,000,000 tons of shipping, while the rest of the world was building about 1,000,000 tons. After the war, there was a short but disastrous boom, and then building fell to 600,000 tons, and for
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    nearly ro years it did not get much past the 1,000,000. The war proved a first-class economic disaster to those who live by constructing, operating and sailing British ships. After a decade, by 1929, shipping had more or less recovered. We never got back our pre-1914 predominance in the world; but we were doing pretty well. Ships were busy, and for five years our net average earnings on shipping services to other nations were £130,000,0040. Over the three years 192830, our shipbuilding averaged 1,500,000 tons.
    Then came the slump, the world economic earthquake of 1929. It was a smashing blow to British shipping. Our earnings for shipping services fell from £130,000,000 to an average for the next five years of £70,000,000. Shipbuilding fell from 1,500,000 tons to 133,000 tons in 1933, and only once again before this war did it touch 1,000,000. The first lesson we must draw from the past is that if we want British shipping to maintain its position in the world and furnish a good life and good living to British seamen, we must abolish wars and slumps. As my hon. Friend has rightly argued, when this war is over we shall face the same problems as we did last time, but there are some mistakes which I hope we may avoid.
    It has often been said that during the last war freight rates and insurance values were allowed in the early stages to go far too high, that great profits, both revenue and capital, were made that led to speculation, to unsound amalgamation, to far too high a capitalisation. I do riot want now to endorse it. It is controversial. I want to say that I think that the Government have this time foreseen such dangers and I hope averted such evils which might result. By the requisitioning of all tonnage early in the war, by the control of war risk value and by the tonnage replacement scheme we have averted the risk of mushroom growth and speculation. We have formally recognised the great importance of the replacement of ships lost and of giving a powerful incentive to those who lose their ships not to take their capital out of shipping as some did last time. We have given them an inducement not to break up the expert organisation for controlling ships and for which I should like to pay them this tribute—under the

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    leadership of the shipowners it has rendered splendid and devoted service in the conduct of the war.
    We remember also that last time things were made a good deal worse by a feverish burst of ship construction, to which I have already referred. I hope that this time everyone will work together to ensure that the replacement programme is more wisely and more temperately planned. There is another difficulty which has been suggested, which I hope is quite unreal. One hon. Member said that Allied owners were getting better facilities for purchasing ships than were British owners under the tonnage replacement scheme.
    Mr. Shinwell: I did.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: The hon. Member says it was he. There was what I might venture to call a tendentious letter in "The Times" a little while ago. I would like to assure the hon. Member that there is no foundation for that suggestion. Both in the principles of the Allied White Paper and in its working the system is indentical with that which we operate for our own shipowners, and there is no difference or divergence of any kind. The hon. and gallant Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) asked "Why not, under this scheme avoid the difficulties which will arise after the war by transferring the ownership of the ships immediately to British owners?" I reply that that was not the arrangement which was come to between the Government and the industry, the arrangement which was embodied in the White Paper, the arrangement to which my Noble Friend is quite clear he must now adhere.
    But, of course, even if we do avoid some of those difficulties that happened last time, that have been foreseen, we shall have new and serious, difficulties to face. Some people believe that the competition of civil aircraft will be among them. It is certain that many people who used to cross the oceans in surface liners will in future go by air. I share the doubts, I will not say more, of my hon. Friend as to whether more "Queen Elizabeths" will be built in time to come. I am sure that he will agree with me that there will in future be a great travelling public who for many reasons will prefer the surface to the air. But
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    apart from other things there will be for some time, at least, the important question of the cost. Unless civil aviation is over-developed by competitive subsidies by national Governments the cost of sea travel must continue to be less than the cost of travel by air. That is far more true of cargo-carrying, which forms so very great a part of the total shipping traffic of the world. Not long ago an expert calculated that the whole of the United States domestic airlines, which were the most developed in the world, carried in 1940 rather under 120,000,000 ton miles. But a single cargo vessel of moderate size carried three times as much as that in a single peace time year. The cost per ton-mile was about 30 pence by air; it was one-thirtieth of a penny for the cargo vessel. There is a fairly ample margin for the ships in that. But it must be our purpose, and it is our purpose, to ensure that civil aviation shall take its place in a rightly balanced system of up-to-date efficient transport. If it does that and no more, we may be confident that our Merchant Navy will still have lots to do.
    There is another problem from which my hon. Friend seems to foresee great difficulties in future years, and that is the competition of the United States. It is true that the United States have developed their shipbuilding on a scale which my hon. Friend the Member for Seaham thought at least was quite incredible. I recall that in January, 1942, he said in the House:
    "To rely on the shipping programme of the United States of America would be sheer folly. Naturally many vessels will be turned out, in American yards, but the American programme is vastly greater than their capacity for performance."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th January, 1942; col. 794, Vol. 377.]
    Fortunately for the country and the world, the Government did not share his opinion. Acting on the advice of my right hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, to whose services in Washington I hope that some day I shall be free to pay a proper tribute, the Government did rely on the American shipbuilding programme. They pooled their shipbuilding and other resources with the United States, and each country constructed what it could do the best. In consequence the Allied shipping problem has been immeasurably less acute than it was before, and Hitler's dream of victory by U-boat is fading fast. Throughout all our dealings the United States have

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    treated us in shipping matters with a generous understanding, of which the principle of the Lend-Lease Act was but the precursor. We can never say enough to express our gratitude for this shipbuilding programme, that programme without which the war could not have been won. As I know the Committee will desire, my right hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary will deal more fully with this aspect of the matter later, arid it is right that he should do so. I only say this: We recall and we endorse the wise words used by Mr. Sumner Welles of another economic problem:
    "There can be no surer road to disaster than for the United Nations to enter the post-war period as rivals and opponents."
    Together we can solve this gigantic problem. We believe that we can work with the United States in peace-time as we do in war. It may happen that thanks to the American building programme there will be more shipping, perhaps much more shipping, in the world than there was in 1939. Even then the shipping available was not properly used. How can we hope that the larger post-war fleets can prosper? I answer—and I submit to my hon. Friend that it is realistic to do so—that the main hope for the prosperity of every Merchant Navy, our own included, lies in the expansion and the great expansion of international trade. I believe that that expansion will come about, indeed it must follow, from the application of the pledges of the Atlantic Charter.
    People sometimes talk as though there were a fixed minimum of international trade which we reached some time in some past millennium, say, in 1929 or 1913, which we shall never exceed. This amounts to a modern version of the old "Work Fund" theory, which worked so cruelly for so long on our economic life. Nothing could be more unrealistic than that. We have only begun to apply science to production. Scientific production is constantly expanding and multiplying the advantages to be derived from international exchange. Consider the terms of Articles 4 and 5 of the Atlantic Charter, or the first Lend-Lease agreement, or the resolutions of the Hot Springs Conference on nutrition. No one can read these without believing that if they are carried out as all the Governments declare they intend to carry them out, there will be an immense increase in
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    transoceanic trade. What is it going to mean in the advance of the nation?
    Mr. Logan: Did I understand my hon. Friend to say that science is only now about to develop and that we have to wait? What T am anxious to know is, What are you going to do now, because in the development of these things I shall not be here?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, I think my hon. Friend will be here, and I hope that science will keep him alive much longer than he otherwise might live. Before the war it was happening every year, now it will happen much faster, that science is going to increase the food. I beg my hon. Friend to consider that these policies of expansion of trade, of getting rid of mass unemployment, of developing the resources of the backward countries of the world, will mean, must mean, a very big expansion of the cargoes to be carried by the shipping of the world. Consider the imports of some of the developed and undeveloped countries.
    Earl Winterion: Why should what the hon. Gentleman says be correct? Has he noted recent events, for example, in Sicily? Why should they be carried by sea?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: If my noble Friend had heard some of my earlier remarks, he would have heard me say that in any possible foreseeable future the margin of cost of the carriage of goods by sea must be far lower than the cost of goods carried by air—incomparably lower—and that if only for the reason that the carrying of cargoes on water is far cheaper in power and other ways than the carrying of cargoes by land and still more in the air.
    Mr. McKinlay: Do the hon. Gentleman's figures refer to ships mass-produced by the welding process in America? Are his figures in relation to the cost of the ships being built at the moment?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I believe that ships being built in America are more expensive than our ships. However, the cost of shipbuilding will come down. It is certain that the vast bulk of the carrying trade of the world will be carried by sea. As regards Sicily, I would say that hundreds of tons have gone by sea for every ton by air—mach more than that. The

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    whole thing has depended on the Merchant Navy and could not have been done without it. There is an enormous margin in the development of the resources of the backward countries of the world whose Governments are determined to raise the standard of their living. In 1929, when international trade was at its peak, India with 350,000,000 population imported 2.6 American gold dollars' worth of goods per head; China, with 450,000,000 people, imported 1.5 dollars' worth; Poland imported 11.9 and Sweden 78.3 dollars' worth of goods, Belgium 119, this country 117. It is evident that if these policies are fulfilled—and I know my hon. Friend the Member for Seaham believes as ardently as I do that they must and will be carried out by the common determination of the peoples of the world—there will be a tremendous increase in the value and the volume of transoceanic trade. However great the increase in the volume of trade, our ships will not get their proper share unless they and their personnel can give the world the efficient and economic services which are required. Everyone is agreed on that, and no one more strongly than all sections of the shipping industry. How can we do it? How can we keep up to the higher standards which alone can do it? Some of my hon. Friends will argue that we cannot do it unless we change our system, unless the whole industry is reorganised more or less on the basis of public ownership and control. My hon. Friend the Member for Seaham asks, "Are we going to hand the Merchant Navy back to private enterprise or not?" My hon. Friend's plan, as I understand it, is to keep the ships which have been built on Government account, to replace other ships which have been sunk, in the hands of the Government. He called it nationalisation. I call it, with respect, a cock-eyed scheme.
    Mr. Shinwell: I understood my hon. Friend to say that keeping the ships in the hands of the Government was a cockeyed scheme. Is not that the present position? Is that a cock-eyed scheme?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I am talking of the peace-time organisation of industry, not of what it is necessary to do for the conduct of the war. My hon. Friend suggested that what he wanted done could be done under the Emergency Powers
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    Act. I think that, if he will look again, he will find that he is wrong. I cannot discuss this matter further within the rules of Order, but if we change the organisation of the shipping industry, we shall have to nationalise the thing properly, to deal with all classes of ships, with the organisation which the shipowners maintain, with their obligations to their employees, and all the rest. Of course, if it is to be done it will have to be done, as my hon. Friend knows, by a new Act of Parliament, and, as he knows, the power of Parliament to pass that Act is, and will remain, supreme. If the British Merchant Navy, or the Merchant Navy of any other country, is to serve the world efficiently and economically, there will have to be international co-operation.
    Mr. Shinwell: I do not want to interrupt my hon. Friend, because I am anxious to hear his case. It is very important, and I am listening to everything with great attention. But he has posed the question which I put to him; that is, what are the Government's intentions at the end of the war? Do they intend to hand back the shipping to private ownership? He seemed about to answer the question, but now he has left it. Would he be good enough to answer it?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: My hon. Friend will recognise that I cannot deal with the question of nationalisation under the rules of Order.
    Mr. Shinwell: We seem to be at cross-purposes. I am not raising the matter of nationalisation. I am merely repeating the question which I put when I addressed the Committee, namely, Do the Government intend to hand over the ships in their possession to private enterprise at the end of the war?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: If the Government keep the ships in their hands at the end of the war, that will be nationalisation of those ships. Of course, the Government will have to pay the people who have lost the ships the insurance money, and no such major change of policy could possibly be proposed without an Act of Parliament. The Government are not now proposing it. They have not made any decision either way. The question is in the discretion of Parliament, who have power to decide it when they wish.
    Mr. Shinwell: I do not think my hon. Friend is in as good form as usual. I put

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    a question to him, and I am sorry to have to repeat it. I hope that hon. Members will not think I am trying to weary them. At present the ships are owned by the Government, they are controlled by the Government, they are managed by the shipowners. What is the Government's policy for the close of hostilities? Do they intend to hand over ships which are now under Government control and ownership to the shipowners? In other words, are they going to revert to private ownership, which does not require legislation—they can do that by a stroke of the pen?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Under the White Paper, the Government are going to hand them over at the end of a fixed period unless a new decision is reached by Parliament. Since my hon. Friend has raised the question of the White Paper, about which he came with a deputation to see my Noble Friend a year ago, I would say that the Government are putting shipowners who have lost ships by enemy action on the same footing as those who have not. Not to do that would have been to discriminate against certain shipowners as compared with other shipowners, and as compared with other classes of the community. But the Government have also stipulated in the White Paper that the property in the ships shall not pass until a fixed period after the end of the war, in order that the question shall not be prejudiced in any way, and if Parliament desires a new organisation of the shipping industry, that issue can be considered.
    Mr. Logan: In other words, the problems will have to be considered after the war, and to-day we have no idea of what is to be done?
    Mr. Robertson: In order that this complicated problem may be cleared up, will my hon. Friend inform the Committee that the bulk of the shipping belongs to private enterprise and must be handed back?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Of course, at the beginning of the war the whole of the shipping belonged to private enterprise. The Government took it up, sent it out to areas where some of it was sunk, and I think the shipowners would have a grievance if they were treated in a way different from that in which any other classes of the community are treated. I was saying that
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    you cannot have efficient and economic operation of the shipping of the world unless you have international co-operation, both in the immediate post-war period and in the long-term future. That is why I have said with some emphasis, and why I repeat, that the Government are prepared to work with other like-minded Governments in establishing the conditions under which the shipping of the world can be so carried on. What does that mean in practice? Let me take first the period immediately after the war. We shall then need arrangements for the joint control and use of the shipping of the world, of a very close kind. No one will expect me to describe the actual agreements to be made or the institutions to be set up, but the collaboration among the United Nations must be comparable to that in the war itself. When you think of the problems of getting food supplies to the occupied countries and China, the supply of manufactured goods, of machinery, of raw materials, of livestock, of oil, of everything that is required to restart the economic life of those countries, the demobilisation of the Armies, the movements of the refugees, and so on, it is plain that the strain on our shipping will be very great, and the pressure of our priorities will be only less great than in the war itself.
    We are determined to avoid the blunders that were committed in the immediate post-war period last time. We are glad to remember that the Governments of the United Nations have already committed themselves to the principles of collaboration, and have agreed that control shall be continued. They said, in a resolution adopted in September, 1941, that that should be done, and they gave instructions that detailed plans should be prepared. I am glad to assure the Committee that those instructions have been obeyed, a great deal of preparatory work has been done, and the principle was reiterated at Hot Springs a month ago. During this interim post-war time, British shipping will be ready to play its part in a scheme which distributes common shipping tasks fairly among all the United Nations; and it is the firm intention of His Majesty's Government to seek such a scheme by discussion with the other United Nations maritime Powers.
    What will that mean in the immediate future? Again, Members will realise that

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    it is still impossible for me to outline agreements or to describe institutions which will be needed. When the hon. Member for Seaham asks what we are going to do about subsidies and about conference arrangements, and other hon. Members ask about stabilisation of freight rates, I say that these are, of course, questions which will need long and difficult negotiations. If I tried to lay down a rigid policy, I should complicate those negotiations and make the task more difficult. But I can say that His Majesty's Government are resolved to play a leading part, and in everything they do they will be guided by the sense of the heavy responsibility that will lie upon the shipping powers to ensure that their policies shall serve the interests of all the traders and all the customers of the nations of the world. That means that there must be co-operation among the shipping Powers themselves and co-operation between the shipping Powers and the rest. I endorse what was said by the President of the Chamber of Shipping a little time ago, that a narrow conception of individual success, without regard to others, would be wrong. Whatever arrangements may be made, they must not be arrangements to exploit the producers, the traders or the consumers. They must be arrangements to help that expansion of prosperity to which we are pledged. It is not irrelevant to add some words used by Mr. Jarman:
    "We intend to see that the seamen of one country shall not be used to depreciate, one against the other, the wages and conditions of employment in the Merchant Navies of the world."
    Mr. Shinwell: That means that you are going to ratify some of the maritime conventions arranged at Geneva?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Some of them.
    Mr. Shinwell: Which?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I am not at present authorised to go into details, but my hon. Friend may rest assured that the question has received very close attention and that the Government have no intention of shirking the issue which those conventions involve. I come to the question of what we are going to do to secure the best obtainable conditions of employment for the officers and men of the Merchant Navy. We have to consider that question
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    against two factors which are new since 1929. First, there is the improvement in conditions since the war began, and, secondly, there are the proposals for improved social conditions, the Beveridge Report, the State medical service, advances in social services and the rest. I take first the question of entry into the Merchant Navy and training for boys who want to go to sea. Running away to sea may still be romantic, but it is out of date. We believe that entry should be controlled and that every boy should have some training before he enters.
    Hon. Members have heard me speak before of the Merchant Navy Training Board, which is representative of the industry and is spokesman of my Ministry and of the Board of Education as well. With the full co-operation of the industry, and I might almost say under its leadership, I want to express gratitude for the work they have done. A report has been drawn up on entry and training and it would repay the careful study of hon. Members who take an interest in the subject. It contains an outlined plan covering both entry and training. Under that plan no boy will enter the Merchant Navy unless he has the necessary qualifications and unless he has been trained. There will be both pre-sea training and training in ships at sea. The scheme applies both to apprentice officers and to deck ratings alike. For apprentice officers there will be, the report proposes, a nine months' course at a nautical college and for deck boys a six months' course at an approved residential sea training school. The education will be vocational, not merely education for a career or profession, but education also for citizenship and the like. The report deserves the study of hon. Members, as I have said. It lays down two fundamental principles accepted by everyone—that no boy will be debarred from any part of this training on financial grounds and that selection shall be on character and ability alone, and that nothing shall stand in the way of any suitable deck boy or rating becoming an officer if he has the qualities and the experience required. I hope that I have said enough to show the Committee that this scheme, which we are anxious should be carried out, or something very like it, would be a most notable advance and would make of our profession of the sea something of which we could rightly be proud.

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    I turn to conditions of employment, which several hon. Members have raised to-day. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) spoke of the Merchant Seamen's Reserve Pool which, since 1941, has been operated by the Shipping Federation with the help of the trades unions and societies and which has ensured to officers and men the benefit of continuity of employment and of wages, holidays with pay and other things. A year ago my Noble Friend asked the National Maritime Board —the Whitley Council of the industry—to consider how these improvements could be continued in the time of peace. The Board have prepared a detailed and ingenious scheme under which the majority of the Merchant Navy personnel would become, so to say, established so that they would have a permanent job, fixed holidays with pay, and other privileges as long as they chose to stick to the sea. Hon. Members will see that such a scheme has to be dovetailed into the general arrangement which might be made in pursuance of the Beveridge Report or otherwise for dealing with unemployment, with pension rights and other things. My Noble Friend is now in consultation with the Minister of Labour on the financial and other questions which the dovetailing of this report into the general scheme would mean. For that reason I can say no more, but I hope that hon. Members will agree that the existence of the scheme is in itself a most important fact and that we have not lost sight of the question of continuing in peace-time the improvements we have made in war.
    I come to the vital question of accommodation in ships. There is nothing which means more to the seaman in his daily working life.
    Mr. Quibell: Except accommodation at home.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: The accommodation at sea is even more important. Nobody denies that there are ships in which the accommodation for the crew is far less desirable than we should all desire. I agree with what the hon. Member for Seaham said, that there is now a general desire that any such bad accommodation should disappear. In the old days it used to be a question of crew space against cargo space, and often cargo space would win. Nowadays, faced with that test, I
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    believe that everybody answers "Crew space." In fact, in an ocean-going tramp or cargo liner of about 7,000 or 8,000 tons the crew space represented—it is a very rough approximation—is about 5 or 6 per cent. of the total tonnage and the difference between good and bad accommodation is perhaps 1½ per cent. In any case we are determined to go on and, as hon. Members know, progress is being made. The new Board of Trade instructions in 1937 greatly raised the minimum standard which the law requires. Many owners since then have voluntarily gone above those standards in constructing new ships. In the Government ships which we have built during the war we have done better still. For example, the square feet provision per man of space required for rest, messrooms and wash places and sleeping rooms under the existing Merchant Shipping Acts is only 27. In the new Government ships the standard space is 52. We give better furniture and better fittings in the bedrooms. The space in washing places is increased by 50 per cent., hot and cold fresh water has been laid on to wash basins and showers, ventilation, heating and lighting have been improved. Refrigerators for food—very important—are being supplied and, most important of all, the accommodation is not being built in the fo'castle; it is being put amidships or aft. After the war there will remain the problem of the larger ships. Many of them will need large scale reconstruction to bring them up to these standards. That raises difficult questions of various kinds but I can only say to the Committee that these questions are being faced and I promise the Committee that they will be faced with energy and with determination in order to get results. I promise the Committee that we shall not weary in well-doing and that in new construction we are now considering how, after the war, it may be possible to do even better in regard to accommodation than we have done with regard to the ships that we are building now.
    One word about health. We have made vast progress since war began. We have improved the supply of drugs in ships. There is a scheme for training stewards, to whom it falls to look after the sick. We have issued pamphlets and leaflets of instructions, and we have established—this is a precedent—an anti-malaria officer in a West African port. We have still a long way to go, and I believe that this is a

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    field in which international co-operation might perhaps produce big results.
    I would say a word about clubs and welfare. During the war scores of seamen's clubs and hostels have been opened in this country and round the world. Some are run by voluntary hospitals and some by the Government themselves. The Treasury has given most generous help. I will not now attempt to say what it may be possible to do after the war is over, but I express the ardent hope that not all of this progress will be lost. I believe there is ample scope for work of this kind in ports all over the world, in clubs where British seamen can play British games, including football, meet fellow Britons, and make British and other friends. Much has been done by voluntary societies in times gone by, but there is still more to do.
    I have tried to review the general problem of the Merchant Navy as we shall see it after the war is done. I have tried to answer questions which my hon. Friends have put. I have argued that the Merchant Navy is of vital importance to the nation when the war is over. I have declared the Government's firm intention that our Merchant Navy shall remain large and efficient. I have explained the reasons why we believe that this can be done to the general advantage of the world. I have stated the broad principles of policy by which we believe that international arrangements about shipping can be made. I have sketched the general lines of action by which we hope to fulfil our pledges of a better life to the men of the Merchant Fleet. Having done all that I end where I began. Officers of the Merchant Navy who have just arrived from Germany came to see me the other day. Three weeks ago they were in a prison camp. Like their 3,000 comrades in that camp, they had incredible adventures when their ships were sunk. They had in that camp masters who had gone grey before their time, men who had lost limbs from frost bite in the Arctic Ocean, and men who had been torpedoed three or four times and had gone to sea again. They told me that in the long months and years of their captivity they had met every kind of Nazi. In their camp they had only seamen, but seamen who belonged to 36 different countries—all the great Dominions, all our gallant Allies, Norway,
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    Greece, Holland, Belgium, Crete, Denmark and the rest. These men had dared everything in the cause of freedom, and the captains told me that in their camp the morale of all these men of every nation had been magnificent from first to last. We hope that when war is over we can make the calling of the sea worthy of these loyal, gallant men and that under the leadership of Britain we can make shipping an instrument of friendship, peace and happiness for all mankind.
    Mr. Gallacher: We have listened to a very long recital of what is alleged to be Government policy, and I am prepared to guarantee that there is not a Member of this Committee any the wiser now than he was before the Minister spoke. We heard nothing but a mass of windy generalisations that will not put one ship to sea and will not give the slightest guarantee for the future to one member of the Merchant Service. The mendacity of the Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) could not be surpassed. "Shipping is essential to this country," he said. I think there will be general agreement about that, but would he or anyone else suggest that the shipowners are essential to this country?
    Commander Galbraith: Yes.
    Mr. Gallacher: There is no limit to the hon. and gallant Member's mendacity. The seamen of this country have a record that cannot be surpassed by any body of men in any field of work or action. I had a short experience at sea. It was in the days of peace a hard life, with very harsh conditions. I have even had the experience of being shipwrecked, also in the days of peace when there were no steel sharks seeking to destroy those who were in difficulties. To-day I think of those lads who are convoying and of what they have to endure. The Minister has spoken of the thousands of decorations, but did he realise when he was speaking of those decorations the unspeakable sufferings not only of the men at sea and men who were adrift day after day but of those who are at home, and whether there had been any consideration given to them? I remember when I was a lad reading the story of the old Highland mother and her son, her only boy, who went out on the Jacobean rising, and one day he was brought home dead. I remember reading how she sat

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    by the bedside caressing the dead face, while from her grief-stricken heart came the words, "My beautiful, my brave." Think of the mothers of these lads who go out time and time again in convoys. These lads show courage which nothing is able to overcome. While they are away their mothers sit at home, waiting for their return. Then one day one of them receives a message, "We regret to inform you that your son is missing." Day after day and week after week the mother waits, hoping that he has been picked up and will come back. The weeks pass into months; the lad has gone, never to return. There is no dead face she can caress, she can only caress a memory, "My beautiful, my brave." From the Government all she gets is a message telling her that her son is missing. There are many of these mothers. These seamen have a record which no section of the community can surpass.
    But what of the shipowners? They have a record which would bring the blush of shame to an Al Capone or a Charles Peace—[An HON. MEMBER: "Nonsense."] If the hon. Member had read the history of the last war, when millions were made and taken out of the shipping industry, he would realise the truth of what I am saying. What about the right hon. Member who was a President of the Board of Trade, whose family was in the shipping industry and who rose from the Front Bench one day to propose a subsidy for shipowners. You will find in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement made about the record of his company and the millions they made out of shipping before it was left desolate. The Minister has given us some so-called original sentiments. What has he said? "The Government are resolved to play a leading part." Wonderful! "The Government have no intention of shirking the issue." Have you ever heard anything like that before. What is the issue? It is whether the Government are to retain control of the shipping industry or leave it to what is called private enterprise, the robbers. Private enterprise destroyed our shipping before the war. Is the shipping industry to be handed back to them, or are the Government to take control? Did the Minister face this issue or answer it? No, he dodged all round it and then said that the Government will not shirk the issue.
    Commander Galbraith: Would the hon. Member tell me how shipowners destroyed the industry, because it would be interesting to know?
    Mr. Gallacher: I am sorry that the hon. and gallant Member who spoke on a brief from the shipowner—
    Commander Galbraith: No.
    Mr. Gallacher—does not know something about the industry. If he will read what happened towards the end of the last war and the years immediately following, he will know something of the way the transfer of shipping was carried on and the black marketeering, which resulted in many people making enormous fortunes out of the sale of ships and then walking out, leaving the industry more or less derelict. This sort of thing was notorious.
    Mr. Wragg: Surely all that money was eventually lost? Will the hon. Member tell us what was the experience of the Australian Government when they tried to run shipping nationally?
    Mr. Gallacher: The widow of one man was left £7,000,000 or £8,000,000 from shipping, and it will be remembered she went to the Channel Islands in order to escape taxation. As I have said, a former President of the Board of Trade introduced subsidies five or six years ago. His family, by a piece of the sharpest practice imaginable in the transfer of ships, made over £2,000,000 and walked away with it. [An HON. MEMBER: "We do not believe it."] What was the situation of the shipping industry before the war? Terrible. The issue that is before the Committee and the country is whether the Government are to retain control of the industry and see that it is properly run or leave it to the black marketeers. The Minister says that we cannot replace our seamen and that the future of our Merchant Navy men must be cared for—
    Mr. Wragg: Will the hon. Member—
    Mr. Gallacher: No; sit down. Unless the Government keep control of shipping, what the Minister has said has no meaning whatever. To hand over shipping to private enterprise means that the fate of the men who are giving their services to the country is at the mercy of the shipowners, who have no mercy when it is a

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    question of cargoes and profits. The hon. and gallant Member for Pollok says that shipowners, having been all their lives accustomed to good profits out of the industry, should now get a dig in at civil aviation.
    The Chairman (Major Milner): The hon. Member is not entitled to discuss civil aviation in this Debate.
    Mr. Gallacher: But the hon. and gallant Member for Pollok said that the shipping industry must get representation on civil aviation. He said that they will bring a wealth of experience to civil aviation.
    Commander Galbraith: Quite right.
    Mr. Gallacher: They will experience an abundance of wealth out of civil aviation if they get their claws into it.
    The Chairman: The hon. Member must not refer to civil aviation further.
    Mr. Gallacher: I will leave that, but the hon. and gallant Member for Pollok did raise it. The Government must face up to the question of an institution such as that which existed before the war—Shipbuilding Securities, Ltd. This company was formed by shipowners and bankers, not to build ships and provide tonnage for goods across the seas, but to destroy shipping. It is almost unbelievable that a company with any amount of capital, supplied by big monopolists, were not concerned about the development of shipping, but only about profits. They went about destroying shipyards on the Clyde, the Tyne, and elsewhere. Are we to have a repetition of that? We are bound to have it if you hand shipping back to the shipowners. It is no use paying tribute after tribute to the men of the Mercantile Marine and then neglecting them and leaving them at the mercy of private enterprise.
    Mr. Hamersley: Would the hon. Member reinforce his argument by giving us some examples of how the shipping industry was successfully run by the State?
    Mr. Gallacher: It was very successful in the Soviet Union. There was practically no shipping industry until the workers took over. Now there is a magnificent industry, and I guarantee that if you were to make an examination of the ships that have been constructed there, you
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    would see that the conditions of their seamen, compared with ours, are much better. I can give any number of examples about the way in which shipowners could not run the industry. Since the war started the Government have been doing a very good job in running the industry. There is no question about that. Convoys have been sailing across the seas, and there has been the great work of marshalling the fleets for the invasion of Sicily. If the Government can do all these extraordinarily difficult tasks, which some time ago would have been considered impossible, surely they can do the much easier task of running the shipping industry in peace-time. If they can run shipping successfully when it is menaced by U-boat packs and bombing aeroplanes, does any Member deny that they could not run peace-time shipping? I cannot see why there is need for getting profits. Let us have less talk about our seamen and a little more action and consideration for their future.
    The Minister said—and I have never heard anything like this in all my life—that the conditions in some of our ships were far less good than many of us desired. Apart from the conditions in the new shipping which is being constructed and even there, it is far from what it should be—the conditions generally for seamen are worse than in the slums of Glasgow or London. I know, because I have slept in some of these ships and smelt them. Can anybody imagine us discussing housing in Glasgow and the Secretary of State for Scotland getting up and saying, "There are some houses in Glasgow far less good than some of us desire." Why does not the Minister come out honestly and say that the conditions in many of our ships are appalling? Just as in the slums of Glasgow you get a high percentage of tuberculosis, so in many of our merchant ships there is a high percentage of that disease. Will the Minister take the necessary steps to ensure that the terrible plague of tuberculosis is ended?
    Commander Agnew: What is the percentage?
    Mr. Gallacher: I do not know it offhand.
    Commander Agnew: Then how does the hon. Member know that the percentage is high?
    Mr. Gallacher: I have not the figure in my mind at the moment, but I have used it on previous occasions. It is a commonplace—even Ministers would have to face up to it—that tuberculosis in the Mercantile Marine is very high. We want the necessary steps taken to ensure that the greatest possible shipping is maintained at sea, and the only way to ensure is to retain Government control. We can build the ships, and we can sail them. Some of us have had experience of officers. Most of us have had experience of the ordinary seamen and firemen of the Mercantile Marine, and you cannot find their superiors anywhere. We can build the ships and we can man them, and I ask the Government and Members of the Committee to get rid of the one great obstacle, private ownership, the men whose only concern is profit. Let us build the ships and man them and see to it that every possible care is given to the men, from the smallest lad on the ship of the captain on the bridge, and every conceivable thought and care are given to those they leave at home, and we shall have a Mercantile Marine worthy of the sacrifices that are being made by these lads to-day.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Cuthbert Headlam: I do not think I should have risen had it not been for the speech that we have just heard. It seemed to me to be entirely political in character and not calculated to help in the present situation. I can understand that there may be people who believe that private enterprise is all wrong. I do not share that view, because I believe that the greatness of this country has been built up on private enterprise. How far it should extend in the future is another matter, but I have always held that private enterprise should be utilised to benefit the community and that the duty of the State is to see that it is carried on to the best advantage of the people; to see that the Mercantile Marine, or whatever it may be, is run on lines which are in the interest of all who work in it, and that no unfair advantage is taken by those in authority over those who serve.
    It seems to me that the real point in a Debate on the future of merchant shipping is how we are to contend against the competition to which we shall be subjected after the war. I should like to think,
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    as the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) did, that we were going to live in a world of perfect amity, where every one would work to the best advantage of every one else in the purest Christian frame of mind. I belong to a generation which does not quite expect that the world will be very different in the future from what it has been in the past, or that human nature will change to the extent that some people believe. I realise that we shall be up against the most tremendous competition in all our industries, commerce, shipping and everything else. Therefore what we are considering to-day is how best to face up to the conditions that we are likely to meet. I represent a constituency which is intimately connected with shipping and I realise that the whole future of the northeast coast is very much bound up with the question of shipping. What I am concerned in is what the Government are doing with regard to the future of shipbuilding. I am certain that there will he tremendous changes in shipbuilding and what I want to find out is what methods are being adopted to help it in the future. I am not expert enough to know, for instance, whether the new welding processes which are in force to-day will come regularly into the shipbuilding programme—whether welding will supersede riveting—but, if that is to come, it is clear that we shall have to recognise that a great deal of our machinery is out of date and that, if we are to compete with our rivals, we must see that the necessary new machinery is brought into existence before the war is over, and that we are ready when the time comes to reequip our Merchant Navy and make it efficient in all the seas.
    When it comes to the conditions of those who serve in ships, I am equally certain that in any international agreement that is made we have to see that our people are not subjected to rules and regulations which are not enforced everywhere else. As I understand it, half the trouble before the war—and one of the causes which reduced our shipping considerably—was that ships which were tolerated in other countries, were not tolerated in this. The conditions of seamen in other countries were infinitely worse than the conditions that were made necessary by law in this country. I should like to have an understanding from the Government that, if there is to be any

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    international control of shipping, we shall see to it that international rules and regulations are the same for all and that it will not be possible for ships which could not be used in this country, to be bought by other countries and utilised against us in commerce. It would be a very good thing if hon. Members behind me realised that, although conditions in this country may not be all that they desire, they are better than those in a great many other countries and that, if the Government see to it that our shipping companies are made to carry out certain regulations, those regulations should be equally applicable to other people.
    Although conditions may not be ideal to-day, they are infinitely better than they were some years ago. Public opinion is now tremendously forceful and I do not believe it possible that bad owners can really have the influence suggested by hon. Members behind me. You only have to bring any fault or unfairness to the notice of public opinion and it will be remedied at once. When we have the knowledge also that the Government are behind us and realise how essential it is to the country that the Mercantile Marine Should be kept up to date and proved efficient, I feel that there is a future before us. What happened after the last war must not be allowed to happen again. We must see to it that our Mercantile Marine is kept strong, efficient and up to date, and that is the duty of the Government. We must leave the actual direction of the whole business to those who are in it. It is clear, if you put it at the worst, that those engaged in industry of any kind are mainly concerned in making profits. Our task here is to see that those profits are not too great and that those who make them look after the men who serve them. I do not think there is very much more that the Government can do. But if you place the Government in charge of the whole machinery and make them entirely responsible far shipping and for the carrying on of the trade of the country then, I believe you are doing something more likely to ensure future wars than anything else. Governments cannot do things which private traders can do. You cannot expect to preserve amity amongst nations if Governments are competing directly in the field of commerce, industry and trade. You have to see that the Government do their duty, in looking after
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    those who are actually engaged in the conduct of these things and leave it to those who know the business to carry on the industry.
    Mr. Robertson: I have always thought that Scotland lost a great comedian when the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) took to politics. Like all other great comedians however he is no good as a dramatic actor. His comic interlude was an interesting relief in this Debate, which I think has been far from inspiring. I found very little to inspire me in the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary and I am hoping for better things when his colleague winds up. It was a joy to listen to the able and informative speech of the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell). He knows a great deal about shipping and I should like to join in the tribute which the hon. Member for the Scotland Division (Mr. Logan) paid him for the work that he has done for the men in this great British industry. He can take great satisfaction from the work of the National Maritime Board. It has brought into being many of the things for which he and others have fought on the Floor of the House and it has had a wonderful record during the past 25 years. I feel that many of the incidents referred to by the hon. Member for the Scotland Division can never occur again. I am certain that shipowners would never allow them to occur again.
    In dealing with the American building situation I think the hon. Member for Seaham took a very poor view of the wonderful efforts that our gallant American Allies are making in supplying us with the tonnage which is essential for victory and in assuming that buccaneers in Wall Street would be able to operate that tonnage against Britain and the other United Nations. I think that is a very poor view. I do not think it is possible. America is still the country created by our forefathers. It is the America of Washington and Jefferson and Hamilton and Lincoln and Woodrow Wilson, and the people of America would never allow anything of that kind to happen. American battalions are fighting alongside ours in Sicily to-day, and if one was wiped out, a British battalion would take its place at once. That is the kind of spirit we must have in regard to the post-war American building programme. I have no fears for the future in that regard. If we regard

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    the matter from the lower economic plane the hon. Member for Seaham told us, of the double cost of American building and the double operating costs and he is correct, but with these disabilities how could America successfully compete against British and other European shipping. Rich country though she is, the U.S.A. could not stand the huge subsidies required. It is a complete fantasy and I wonder if my hon. Friend, who was so skilful and so cautious in riding his horse of nationalisation, raised that bogy as a means of furthering his pet schemes.
    Mr. Shinwell: The hon. Member makes a mistake in assuming that I derided American efforts in shipbuilding during the war. I founded my case in relation to the possibility of international cooperation, on the declared statements of American spokesmen of the American Mercantile Marine. If those statements are repudiated, well and good, but, as far as I know, they have not been challenged.
    Mr. Robertson: I agree that my hon. Friend did not desire to deride the American efforts, but I will ask him to pay little heed to speeches made by minor public men in America about what they intend to do. It is what the American people and the United Nations intend to do that counts, and if we make the Atlantic Charter work, as we must do, those things will be impossible. In this Debate, many essential facts have not so far been brought out. In spite of all the years of depression, the restrictions on world trade, subsidised, foreign competition and the self-sufficiency practised by so many nations, the British Mercantile Marine was well found and ready to render this country services vital to the community when war broke out. Although created and paid for by private enterprise, it was in a better and more efficient state than the Royal Navy which was created and paid for and controlled by public enterprise. When I say that I cast no reflection on the personnel of the Royal Navy, but I lay the blame where it belongs—the House of Commons, which is responsible for the security of the State. Immediately war occurred the British Mercantile Marine was able to carry on our essential sea services to maintain the life of the nation and, in addition, provided the Navy with armed cruisers, transports, minesweepers, escort vessels and auxiliary vessels of all kinds. Many of
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    these naval requirements should have been provided by the Navy. The nation's food supplies were jeopardised by using so many refrigerator ships as transports and by the commandeering of all modern fishing trawlers representing four-fifths of the nation's fish catching power. The blame lay with Parliament, and I believe that to a large extent it lies with the self-same people who are demanding that the British Mercantile Marine should be nationalised or be a public corporation.
    The enemy has waged a savage and relentless U-Boat warfare against us for four years, yet Allied shipping is still able to meet our essential needs, including the gigantic operations carried on all over the world and the major operations in Tunisia and Sicily in the last few days. Of course British and American shipbuilding and repairing have played a major part in that situation, but the foundation stocks of shipping were and still are ships of the British Mercantile Marine. On many occasions just tribute has been paid to the gallant officers and crews, but the nation owes a debt it can never repay to British shipowners, investors and managers for providing this great fleet which carried on during the dark years when they never earned their depreciation, let alone profits. The nation is also indebted to the industry for providing the experienced tradesmen who run the Ministry of War Transport so well. The Minister is a product of the P. and O. group and the personnel of the Liner, Tramp and Coastal shipping committees are all shipping men who in co-operation with the skilled civil servants have built up a most efficient Ministry.
    There are no war profits in shipping. Vessels are requisitioned at low rates of interest on capital and depreciation. Craft are being overworked, imperfectly maintained and subjected to war risks which must diminish the lives of the ships. Even the hard hit British farmer has been treated much better than the shipowner. His property has not been requisitioned but it has been improved. He is selling his produce at satisfactory prices and he is guaranteed a market for some time after the end of the war. When a shipowner loses a vessel through enemy action he is repaid the pre-war value less depreciation, and he may be permitted to acquire after the war Government built ships at infinitely greater war-time cost. In 1919

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    when the Government sold standard ships built during the war they charged shipowners £23 per ton dead weight. In 1920 the market price for those ships fell to L13, and in 1921 to £9. That should never happen again.
    Mr. David Adams: Is the hon. Member aware that that was due to bringing in the German reparation tonnage and selling it on a restricted market in this country?
    Mr. Robertson: I heard the hon. Member make that point in his speech, but I cannot agree with him that the low prices were due to the German tonnage which we brought over as part of reparation and for which, he said, the late Lord Inchcape was responsible. He was only the machine for carrying out the Government's orders. Surely the low prices of ships were due to lack of foreign and world orders and the self-sufficiency of other nations which we had taught to build ships. A similar state of affairs may well occur in which there will be a huge drop in market prices and shipowners are undoubtedly taking a great risk in paying high prices. No one can forsee the future with certainty and shipowners are taking serious financial risks in paying for new tonnage at about double the price they are receiving for their better pre-war ships.
    Now about the future. Parliament's job is to legislate and not to trade. Some Members appear to think that the war factories created and run by the Government provide a model and an inspiration for seizing the British Mercantile Marine and running it as a Department of State or as a public corporation. Even if the owners were willing to permit the seizure, which I doubt, I can hardly see the taxpayer being willing to undertake the risk. He must know the disastrous results which overtook Australia, the United States and other countries which undertook State trading in shipping. He must know that there is no possible comparison between the running of war factories and the complex international trade of shipping. Acts of Parliament do not apply outside the three-mile limit. A great part of the cargoes carried have no connection at all with the British Isles. Heaven forbid that we ever have another war, but if the British Government become shipowners I can foresee diplomatic ruptures occurring.
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    Ship owning and managing is a highly specialised job. In this country it is carried out by many companies from single ship companies to the great liner companies owning a number of ships, but not an excessive number. The average number of ships per company is about six. The work of managing such a fleet is considerable and it is interesting to note that when amalgamations take place the acquired companies continue to be separately managed. That is of material interest to the Committee to-day when we have heard so much about creating post-war semi-Government institutions. The experienced practical shipowner, the successor of generations of those who have built up the Mercantile Marine, do not run vast numbers of ships trading to foreign countries. When there are amalgamations for the mutual benefit and to prevent excessive price-cutting, shipowners leave the management in the hands of the company taken over. They carry on their respective businesses. Let that be a warning to those who see in an undertaking like the London Passenger Transport Board any parallel with the shipping industry carried on by the Government for the people. Parliament's duty is to help to make the Atlantic Charter work and to break down the barriers restricting world trade. It must legislate for prosperity and full employment. If that is done the British shipowners, their captains and crews will forge ahead holding their own against all corners and maintaining the proud record of the British Mercantile Marine.
    Mr. Kirkwood: The Minister started his speech by telling us about the heroes of the Mercantile Marine and said that there was only one thing which they feared and that was unemployment. That is a big mistake, because the working class do not fear unemployment a bit. It is God's present to them at times, for it gives them a rest. It is not unemployment they fear, but the starvation that follows as a result of it and being denied the right to earn a living. My hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Robertson) told us of the disaster that would happen to the country the world, and the British Commonwealth of Nations in particular, if the Mercantile Marine were taken over and run by the Government.
    The Chairman: That is clearly a question for legislation. It is true that, to a

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    large extent, the Government now run the Mercantile Marine, but any question of nationalisation, which I gather the hon. Member is thinking of, would clearly involve legislation. On the question of the continuance of public control, if there be public control, the hon. Member may, possibly, be in Order.
    Mr. Kirkwood: I was about to say something in reply to the hon. Member for Streatham, apart from his sarcastic remarks about my hon. Friend the Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), who is the hon. Member's friend outside politics.
    Mr. Robertson: I made no sarcastic remarks. Any remarks I made were made in good humour and with respect.
    Mr. Kirkwood: I am sure that will delight the heart of the hon. Member for West Fife. To-day we are falling foul of one another. Two distinct points of view are being put in the Debate. The hon. Member for Streatham said it would be a disaster if the Mercantile Marine were to come under Government control. How an intelligent man can say such a thing is beyond me, when he is surrounded by Members who belong to the Navy. Is the Navy under private enterprise? Dare we trust private enterprise to defend the interests of the British Empire? We have more sense. Is not the Navy well run? We have advocated time and again that there should be the same conditions in the Mercantile Marine as there are in the Navy under Government control. It does not require the Minister to tell us about those heroes in the Mercantile Marine. He ought to be fired with inspiration when he speaks about the heroism of these men, which is unprecedented in history.
    Mr. Robertson: I am full of admiration for the great work that has been done by the Mercantile Marine, but I am full of regrets for what Parliament failed to do in regard to the Navy, and the party to which my hon. Friend belongs has some considerable share of blame for not keeping the Navy in a proper state of efficiency.
    Mr. Kirkwood: I was not referring to the hon. Member for Streatham. He is not yet standing at that Box. Possibly coming events are casting their shadows before. He was not reading any essay at the Box to-day. We, to-day, ought to be paying tribute to this great service and I was saying, See the types in the Navy—well
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    fed, well clad, well housed, not only at sea but at home. See them in the streets. I have drawn attention to this when they have been bringing in a new Member from the working class to take his seat here, after being practically all his life in the pit. Branded. With the mark of the beast. But see the Members of the ruling class and how they walk that Floor. It is the same with the Navy. See the Mercantile Marine. Tuberculosis rampant, the conditions of accommodation, a scandal beyond compare.
    Commander Galbraith: May I—
    Mr. Kirkwood: No. It is the members of the working class who have come here and who have forced the shipowners and the shipbuilders to make conditions in the Mercantile Marine more endurable. It was this House that gave us the Plimsoll line. Did that come from private enterprise? No fear. Do not let us raise another bone of contention. Every improvement which the workers of this country have got they have had to fight for. Men have been driven out of the country for fighting for better conditions, fighting for them on the Floor of the House of Commons, and then people tell you "Blame it on this House." We should not have been the Empire that we are, the power for good that we are in the world at large, if it had not been for the British House of Commons. I have always held that the British House of Commons is the greatest anvil for forging the emancipation of the working class that there is in the world to-day. As I sat listening to the Minister giving us such a lengthy report, I had hoped that we should get some little concession, that I should see a ray of hope, that I should hear something that would enable me to go before my rebellious engineers in every district in Britain and tell them, "It is quite true now. The Government have definitely said on the Floor of the House, on the 14th day of July, that things are not going to be as they were after the last war. We now have a guarantee, a statement made on the Floor of the House by a responsible Minister."
    That never happened to-day. I have nothing to go to the shipbuilding workers with—nothing—and yet there are many concessions which could have been made that would have been helpful in the winning of the war. This is the greatest of

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    all Governments—well, it is supposed to be—with ever so many powerful Labour representatives in it, and I thought "Here is an opportunity for them to make their presence felt." But again, No. Not a crumb. We are disappointed again, just as we were a fortnight ago when we were reviewing conditions in the coal industry, which is the lifeblood of the nation. The British Empire cannot continue without shipbuilding and without ships, and the shipbuilding workers to-day are seething with discontent. I have stood here for a year and a half appealing for a small concession from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for "pay as you go" in connection with the Income Tax.
    The Chairman rose—
    Mr. Kirkwood: I am only giving that as an illustration, Major Milner. There has been no concession. The hon. Member for Streatham said that it was not as a result of the Versailles Treaty that my fellows—and I was one of them then—were thrown on the streets, that the whole engineering and shipbuilding industry of this country was disorganised. But it was so, because we not only commandeered the German Navy but we commandeered the German mercantile fleet in its entirety. And what did the Government do? What I am going to tell hon. Members is irrefutable. The British Government took all the ships from the Germans. Did they give them to the boys who had fought for their country? No fear. They gave them to the friends of the hon. Member for Streatham £5 for a ton, and we could not build ships in this country at that time for less than £28 a ton. Shipowners got the benefit. Who made that statement? Bonar Law, at that Box, in my hearing. He was ashamed, he said, at the profits that he was reaping upon £30,000 that he had invested. What has brought me to my feet is that the building workers and the engineers, in fact, the working class throughout Britain, fear that their fate will be the same at the end of this war as it was at the end of the last war.
    That is why I have appealed to this Government, that is why I have fallen out with some good friends that I had—in order to get some concession. Give us some concessions, give us some indication, so that we shall be able to go to our fellows and give them the guarantee that
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    what happened after the last war will not happen after this war. We have had no indication, none whatever. We might as well never have had any Labour men in the Government as far as that is concerned. The working-class point of view, which is most important at the moment, seems to be forgotten. You cannot win the war without the workers. Hon. Members around me say, "And the managements." I pay all respect to the managements. In all my broadcasts I have appealed for team work. I am always appealing that we should play as a team. When I hear individuals telling of what the shipowners have done, what the employers have done, and what the managers have done I always think of what happened during the coal strike in 1926, when I got fined £36 for a speech. I had made that speech in the House of Commons and the then Secretary of State defied me to make it outside. I did make it outside, and that is the price I paid for it.
    We have to get something to-day. It is important that we get something from the Government. We have striven here, but it does not matter what case we put up: one would think we were appealing to the enemies of the country instead of our own fellows. We are told what the management and the employers have done. My point is that when there is a strike on, all the talk is about "these absentees" and "these ragamuffins of workers." That is the phraseology used—but not at this moment, of course. When the worker stops work there is no production. When the miners stop, no coal comes out of the pit.
    It is the same with the shipworkers and the engineers. I want the Committee to realise that we are now talking about the most important section of the community, the workers. The Minister is young, and he has a great future before him if he cares to make it. There is no future going to be made for him more than has been made up to the moment, but there is a great opportunity. I see the First Lord of the Admiralty sitting on the Government Front Bench. If he had as much courage as he has ability, he would make a mark in the same way. We are waiting for the man who will be big enough to view matters from the workers' point of view. The workers are determined not to be treated in the same

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    way as they were after the last war, when engineering workers on the Clyde received lower wages than scavengers on the streets of London. That was what private enterprise did, and will continue to do, until we are strong enough to stop it.
    We are a very fortunate generation. We do not need to wait upon things to happen. This is the age of speed and not just of energy; of speed and change. Change is the only thing that is with us, and "now" is the only important word on the face of time. We are fortunate to have had it demonstrated again beyond a shadow of a doubt that the people who have stood up to the most mighty military machine on which the sun ever shone have been the Russians. They never feared, and that was because of their Socialism; the nearer we get to that system, the better it will be for the British Empire. Civilisation as we know it is British civilisation. We made it, I want to see it carried on. I want the British point of view to get a chance. I do not want progress to be retarded, and there is a hope that we will yet win through—I do not mean in the war, because I have no doubt that we shall win it, but I mean in the great war that will follow. I mean the liberation of the working class from wage slavery.
    Commander Brabner: I cannot pretend to make a speech as dramatic or as long as the hon. Gentleman who has just finished. I should like first of all to pay my Tribute to the officers and men of the Merchant Service for the work that they have done in the war. I do not think anybody in the Navy would deny that they must not be treated in the way they were treated in the last war. Everybody who has served with them knows of the very severe actions in which they have been called upon to play their part, and must have been impressed by their steadfastness and courage. I would remind the Committee of a jingle, which I think comes from the time of James I, and which says:
    "God and the Navy we adore
    In times of danger, not before.
    The danger past, all is requited;
    God is forgotten and the Navy slighted."
    That is what happened to the Merchant Navy after the last war, and it will be for this House to make sure that it does not happen again after the present war.
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    I was a little depressed with the report made by the Parliamentary Secretary. While it was unexceptionable, it was uninspired, although he had an inspiring subject to talk about. What I think knocked the bottom out of the Government's declaration was the absence of any indication of the size of the Merchant Navy which the Government envisage for after the war. It is all very well to say that we shall have la Merchant Navy, but of what size and scope? We must realise that more than a million men depend upon the Government's idea of the size of our post-war merchant fleet. Are we to have the pre-war standard, or 25,000,000 tons, or are we to standardise on what is left to us at the end of the war? I do not think the Government would be giving away any secrets if they mentioned the sort of figure which they have in their minds, particularly in view of the probability of American predominance having a Merchant Fleet three or four times the size of ours, assuming that the war lasts for another two years. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he can give us any indication of the size of Merchant Navy which the Government contemplate after the war.
    On this figure obviously will depend the prosperity or otherwise of the shipbuilding industry of this country. Hon. Members have talked of the work done by that industry and have very rightly said that we build the finest ships in the world and man them with the finest men in the world. What those hon. Members have not pointed out is that other people fill those ships with goods and that we have to compete for their custom. That is the big stumbling block which our Merchant Navy has to face. The customer will still put his goods into the ships with cheapest rates and which get there at the right times. It is all very well for hon. Members to talk about nationalisation, but they will still have to get the great mass of customers to put their goods in British ships if the British Mercantile Marine is to be a success.
    Another point which has not been mentioned up to now is the part which the Dominions are playing in shipbuilding. We had a depressing and unenterprising attitude taken during the Debate upon civil aviation about the Dominions' share, and it was the same to-day. The Parliamentary Secretary did not say one word

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    about the position of Canada in shipbuilding after the war. Australia and New Zealand are all building ships at an unprecedented rate and with great skill. This point has a bearing upon the first point which I have tried to make, and which is whether the Mercantile Marine is to be an Empire or a British Mercantile Marine. What attitude are we to take in our negotiations with America? Presumably we shall have to negotiate with them on the size of the various Merchant Navies. What part are the Dominions to play in this matter? Have we started negotiations? Are we reviewing the position? Are we doing nothing, as apparently we were in regard to civil aviation?
    I hope I shall not be out of Order if I bring up the question of civil aviation again, because it is closely connected with the question of merchant shipping, as it affects passenger transport by the Merchant Navy. It should be pretty clear that no owner will build luxury passenger ships until the Government have settled their policy with regard to civil aviation. It is extremely important that that policy should be announced or indicated at the very earliest opportunity. Until that is done, I do not see how any shipowner, however progressive or enterprising, can contemplate the provision of fast luxury liners. The point has been made that the cost of civil aviation will always be greater than that of ships. I do not believe that for a minute, because there is such a thing as cheap speed. So much increase of speed will be available by air that the extra cost will automatically cancel out in the time saved by the man who uses it. Although the initial cost may be greater by air than by shipping, the final cost in the business done will make aviation worth the extra money. Moreover, the costs of civil aviation will come down extremely rapidly.
    I therefore want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give us some indication on the Government's policy on these three things: The post-war size of the British Mercantile Marine; what part the Dominions are going to play; what and how soon we can expect some indication of the Government's civil aviation policy. There is one last point which I would like to make about shipbuilding. In company with other hon. Members, I am extremely grateful to the Americans for the figures which they have achieved in
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    shipbuilding production. They certainly have brought home the goods and have saved us from very severe difficulties. But there is such an amount of advertising going on of the quickness and speed and efficiency with which they build ships that I sometimes feel that we are allowing the case in this country to go by default. We in this country are building ships, not as speedily in terms of days and weeks and months as the Americans are building ships, but American ships are three times more expensive than ours are, and two-and-a-half to three times more man-hours are going into those quickly built American warships and cargo ships than are being put into the ships being built in this country. It is only fair to the shipbuilders of this country to say that. We do not want it to go out to the world that we have lost our ancient shipbuilding skill. British shipbuilders get credit everywhere, including America, except in England. I think it is time that something on those lines came from the Government benches, and that some tribute was paid to the immense and fantastic effort being put into shipbuilding in this country, and the efficiency and success being achieved.
    The hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell)made one detailed point to which I should like to reply. He is always talking about fast ships. I think there is a great error in assuming that a fast ship is necessarily what we want in this country. What you do want if you are building your Mercantile Marine for wartime are sufficient escorts to cover slow ships. The provision of fast ships will make your Mercantile Marine unworkable in peace-time, because we above all countries have to bring more really raw materials like iron ore and grain to this country than is probably the case with any other country in the world. The rates for this sort of cargo will not stand the extra is., or 2s. per ton, which the provision of an extra six or eight knots costs. Other countries are not in that position.
    Mr. Shinwell: They will get a quicker turn-round.
    Commander Brabner: I do not think they do. I have tried to work this thing out. It seems to me we are compelled more than any other nation to rely on the most economical ship rather than on a fast ship. The answer to that, it will be said, is that in war-time those ships

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    are no good, because they are an easy prey for submarines. My reply to that is that they are the ships for peace-time, economical ships of something between nine and it knots, but for the purpose of making war you must provide the Navy, a publicly-owned concern, with the right amount of escorts and men to protect the convoys. So I would like other considerations to be given to the provision of ships in England after the war than that of speed only.
    The hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), I think it was, and also the hon. Member who preceded me, spoke of conditions in the Mercantile Marine. We all wish they were better. He also spoke about conditions in the Navy. It is no part of my job, being in uniform, to talk about the Service in which I am serving, but I will say that there would he a mutiny in the Mercantile Marine if conditions were anything approaching the conditions in the Navy to-day. There is absolutely no comparison at all. No merchant sailor, seaman or officer would stand for one second the sort of conditions which ratings in the Royal Navy are standing cheerfully and willingly to-day in time of war. That ought to be said and realised by those democratic demagogues who go about preaching the very reverse of what is the case. Also, to take the question of the pay of men serving side by side, merchant seamen and naval ratings, the former are receiving anything from two to three times that of the naval rating. This is something which need not be shouted from the housetops, but in view of statements made it does need saying. Conditions in the Merchant Navy are better than conditions in the Royal Navy. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary when he replies—and I think it is of the most fundamental importance—will see particularly whether he can give some figure as to the possible size of the Merchant Navy which the Government will have in mind when they enter into negotiations with other countries.
    Mr. Clement Davies: I always feel that sympathy should be extended to a Parliamentary Secretary replying for his Department in this House when the head of the Department is in another place. He is always in the position that he has little say, I imagine, about policy in ordinary times, and when he is here to reply to a Debate he is more
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    or less tied to what has been discussed between him and his chief and the civil servants, and is more or less tied to his brief. But never in all my experience of this House have I seen such an exhibition as that before the Committee to-day. There was a Debate on a major subject. There were very pertinent questions put by the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell). There was no attempt whatever to debate. The Parliamentary Secretary just stood reading a prepared document. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood), who called attention to one part of it in particular. I can well understand the Minister having to turn to his brief for figures or dates or any particular circumstance which has been discussed between him and his Department and to which he is tied by his instructions beforehand, but a large part of the opening of that speech made from that Box dealt with some of the finest stories in the long history of this land. The hon. Member has been since February, 1942, Joint Parliamentary Secretary in that Ministry, hearing, I suppose, daily these amazing human stories of courage, fortitude and endurance, and instead of being full of his subject, bursting out to tell the public the great epics, he had to read it as if he was reading something from the "Fortnightly Review" or the "Quarterly Review." I have rarely heard a greater conglomeration of abstract nouns, clichés, and the sort of writing we used to associate with copy books until I began to feel that I was listening to someone who had been educated at what in Victorian and Edwardian days we used to call a finishing school for young ladies.
    Here, in dealing with this mighty subject of shipping and supply, and in an account of the stewardship of the year with a view to explaining why this Committee should be asked to vote the necessary sum for the coming year, we have heard not a word about the policy of the future. Definite questions were put. Not only that, but references were all the time made to the past and queries put, "Have you learned your lesson from that, and what is going to be your attitude in the future?" All that we heard was that the Government are determined to inquire, that the Government are taking this matter into very serious consideration, that the Government have been considering that matter

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    for a long time. In the meantime, there is not only the question of the nation waiting to hear what the policy is going to be—and everyone is concerned about it—but there are three sets of people directly concerned in this industry who are left in suspense as to what is to be the future—the shipowner, the ship's officers of the Mercantile Marine and the men of the Mercantile Marine. Those are the actual people working the ships. Then there are the shipbuilders, both the employers and the employees, still waiting to hear what is likely to face them in the future.
    May I remind the Committee of what our position was when the Mercantile Marine saved this country between 1914 and 1918, as it has saved this country again from 1939 onwards, and is doing today? At that time we had had nearly 40 per cent. of the shipping of the world sailing under the actual flag of these Islands. Out of 49,000,000 tons, over 19,250,000 tons were owned in these Islands. By 1939 the world tonnage had gone up, but British tonnage had gone down; the world trade had gone up, the population of the world had increased, but British tonnage had gone down. In 1939 the world tonnage was 69,500,000 tons and the British 17,900,000 tons, or 25.9 per cent., as against 39 per cent. in 1914. Or, to put it in a more convenient form, assume that those figures can be translated into a token figure, and that the token figure is 100 for 1914. By 1939 the world tonnage had gone up to 141, and British tonnage had gone down to 93.
    Those are the figures for ownership of ships: see what has happened with regard to building. At one time not only were we building, as we are building to-day, the best of ships, but we were building far more than half the ships of the world. In 1913 we built in this country 1,932,000 tons, out of a gross tonnage for the world of only 3,332,000 tons. We were the major builders of the world. If I only give the figures for the very bad period of 1931–35, they are startling. In 1931 we were building only 500,000 tons; in 1932, 187,000 tons; in 1933, down to our lowest, only 133,000 tons; in 1934 there was a slight rise to 450,000 tons. Then came the subsidy, and quite a considerable rise. But, even with the subsidy, we built only 1,000,000 tons in 1938, out of 3,000,000 tons for the world. So, instead of build-
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    ing two-thirds of the world's shipping, we were building only about one-third. Another set of figures, and perhaps the one that matters most, is that of the number of people employed in shipping. In 1911 there were 136,000 British people employed in ships. By 1921 the number had gone down to 96,000. The numbers fluctuated, naturally, but by 1938 they were down again to 107,000. There has been a fall, in comparison with the rest of the world, in shipbuilding, in ship-owning, and in the number of British seamen on British vessels.
    In the last war we were called upon to do duties that we had never contemplated. We entered the seafaring industry as young people. A wonderful story could be told about that Welsh coast all the way down from Flintshire to Glamorganshire. There is not a cottage, there is not a smallholding, all along that long coast that does not send its boys to sea. Invariably one comes across ordinary sea tragedies, but still they go, the call of the sea is so strong. In 1914 they had to meet another peril. Throughout that period from 191.1 to 1918—and we now know how near disaster we were in 1917–18—the words of praise that are being used to-day in this Committee for the bravery and endurance of the Mercantile Marine were being used. Yet in 1919 and 1920 those men were forgotten, and the numbers had gone down. The men who had been called upon during the war were not wanted by 1921. That is the position that has been put by my hon. Friend the Member for Seaham and by other hon. Members. What are you holding out for these people? I will not transgress the rules of Order, but I think it is only right to make passing reference to two other matters. Only the week before last we were discussing another vital matter where so much turns upon the people who are actually working coal. Last week we were discussing forests. The Committee voted Supply without knowing what was going to be the Government's policy with regard to either of those subjects. To-day, I suppose, we shall be voting Supply without knowing what is going to be the Government's policy, or without knowing the future of the shipping industry.
    In the last war the shipbuilding industry were called upon to increase the number of yards, and they did it amazingly. Then, unfortunately, because there was no

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    policy except just to leave it to chance, we passed through that period when not only were the new shipyards closed, but a number of old shipyards that had been working for a century were closed. Men who had been brought up beside and worked within those yards, as had their fathers for five generations before them, had to stand idle and then seek work elsewhere. Even to-day—though one cannot enter into figures—there are many of those yards that have not been opened. Men have been called back into the shipbuilding industry. The process has been quickened up. What is to happen to these people when the war finishes? They were not even thanked at the end of the last war. Are they to be told at the end of the present war—"Thank you very much for what you have done but we have not the slightest idea of what is to be your future"?
    Linked up with shipping is the welfare of this country—the whole of its industry and its trade with the rest of the world. How often has one to emphasise that we are dependent upon our world connections. This is an island. We have to import food and raw materials. These people enable us to be fed to-day. In spite of all the tribute we can pay to the farming community, they have worked in safety, but these people have gone out again arid again after being torpedoed in order to keep us going. Upon them also has depended the success of the great undertakings of the Army. They have enabled our great armies to be kept in the Middle East, and to enter Tunisia and to-clay they have carried the armies into Sicily, bearing not only their ordinary duties as seamen but the brunt of battle as well. They are entitled to ask the Government "What are you going to do for us when this war is over?" What is the position of the shipowner? An attempt was made to get an answer from the Parliamentary Secretary to this simple question. To-day you have Government-built ships and Government-chartered shins, being run by the shipowners as managers for the Government. What is it proposed to do with them when the war ends? No clear answer comes. Do you mean to hand them back, or to keep them under control, or to run them yourselves? What do you propose to do? Some shipowners have ceased to give private orders. Some are taking
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    that very big risk to-day. Some of them are in the position that they remember what took place at the end of the last war, and you cannot blame them if they say, "We will get out as early as we can, put that in reserve and come back again at a time when we can see what is likely to happen." They are people accustomed to taking risks. They are the successors of the merchant adventurers of old, but, after the experience which some of them had at the end of the last war, they see not a risk, but an inevitable loss, and they want to know where they are.
    We know now that we are not the only shipbuilders in the world. We owe a tremendous debt to America and to Canada. Without that aid I dread to think of what would have been our position, with the increased submarine warfare that went on, and the tremendous losses we were suffering at one time. Only recently—some months ago—was our power of replacement greater than the losses that we were suffering. One is glad to know now that not only have the losses gone down, but that the power of replacement keeps on increasing. That has been due in a major degree to the great efforts which America and Canada are making. But what of the future? They built in the last war. They became, if I remember rightly, second to us as the greatest mercantile owners in the world but they are not, as we are, marine-minded, and naturally so because the distance from New York to San Francisco is about the same as the distance from London to New York. They are, naturally, more land-minded and will become more air-minded, and although they have that long sea-board East and West, the desire, I suppose, would be to stay on the land and not as in this country to go to sea. It may be that that influences them. Unfortunately, they had some pretty bad experience of trying to run their mercantile marine and made a very heavy loss, as did Australia, Canada and France, but the heaviest loss of all, was suffered by the United States.
    It is a truism and a platitude to say that shipping is an international matter. It is a platitude to say that there has to be an agreement between the various shipowning countries of the world and that we ought to arrive at an international convention. But surely we ought to be entering that convention with suggestions

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    and plans already prepared, sufficiently elastic to enable us to listen to all the suggestions and plans that have been made by others. We are asking: Tell us how you are working this out. Do you mean to leave it exactly as it was in 1939? Do you mean to make the position worse, as you did in 1919, by bringing over the German mercantile marine and placing them on the market at cheap prices? Do you intend to exercise control for a while or do you intend to adopt a long-term policy and exercise control for a long time; or do you mean to allow certain types to be freed and to keep control over others in the interests of the nation?
    These are the matters which are exercising the minds of all of us. We are all glad to welcome back the hon. Member the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Sir A. Salter), who is to reply. We would like to congratulate him on the very magnificent job of work he has done in America. He has had a long experience of this work not only in this war, but in the last and we would like to nay him this tribute—we are grateful to him for the way in which he has handled this most difficult situation. I hope that when he comes to reply he will be able to give us something more specific than his colleague has done with regard to how he visualises things, especially after his long experience in America.
    I would like to join with the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Hythe (Commander Brabner) in paying tribute to Canada, which has now become a really big shipbuilding country. How do we intend to work with them? This Debate was initiated in order to get the kind of information we have asked for, and I hope we shall not part without getting something more definite than we have had so far. All of us pay tribute to the officers and men of the Mercantile Marine, and I would also like to pay tribute to the shipowners who have gone to the Ministry of War Transport to work with Lord Leathers, who has carried through this work with great success. They have worked with him, and while they could not guide or influence Government policy with regard to the future, they have been of valuable assistance during this period of this war. What is to be their position when it is over? We are, undoubtedly, now approaching what I might call the
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    last phases of this war; they may take one, two or three years or longer, but as we enter these phases these problems, which we shall have to face when the war is over, ought to be tackled now. We are entitled to guidance from the Government, and the country is waiting for a declaration of policy.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Sir Arthur Salter): A year ago when I was back here on a short visit from America I was privileged to take part in a Debate in this Chamber. I turn back in my mind to that moment; it was a time of the gravest anxiety. The Government, Parliament and the country realised that the fate of this war might turn on the position of our merchant shipping. We had a Debate which was in secret and had to be in secret. Now, this year, it is perhaps significant of the change in our fortunes, and in particular of the very considerable improvement in the shipping position, that not only are we here debating in public, but the mind of the Committee has turned to the extent to which it has turned to post-war, as distinct from war, problems. I am not sure that the change in outlook and in subject is not perhaps a little too complete or too quick. Certainly, I think it is premature to expect at this moment a complete and comprehensive policy worked out and proclaimed by the Government as to the post-war shipping position. To illustrate what I mean by a change of tone I think that when the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) in opening this Debate referred to the scale of American shipbuilding it was almost with a shade of regret that that building should be on so vast a scale.
    Mr. Shinwell Mr. Shinwell indicated dissent.
    Sir A. Salter: I am near enough in my preoccupations to the time when the increase of that building was something on which the fate of the war seemed likely to turn to be quite unable for a moment to look at the figures of present output with anything but gratitude and joy. But is it really possible to expect at this moment that the Government should not only have framed, but should now think it expedient to announce, the kind of policy which has been asked for by hon. Members here to-day? Whatever be the solution of our shipping problems, it is quite clear that it cannot depend upon

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    policy within the sphere of shipping alone, that it cannot depend upon decisions taken only by this country and without reference to the policies being developed by other countries and the negotiations that must take place between us and those countries. This is immediately relevant, I think, to the question asked by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hythe (Commander Brabner), who asked what was the size of Mercantile Marine the British Government had in mind after the war. Should we be increasing the chances of a successful conclusion to the discussions which must, of course, follow with other countries if we started by announcing a figure?
    Mr. Shinwell: The United States have made a statement.
    Sir A. Salter: Has the United States Government stated that it is the policy of America to have a mercantile marine of a certain size?
    Mr. Shinwell: Yes, Admiral Land has stated it.
    Sir A. Salter: The Committee will, I think, be aware that there is a rather different tradition in America from that which prevails in this country, both as to collective responsibility and as to the freedom of individual officers to express individual opinions that may or may not ultimately prove to be the considered and final opinions of their Government. In any case, I am not in a position to state anything so definite as the policy of the British Government. I believe Members of this Committee will realise that the British Government would be unwise to state here and now, "This is the Mercantile Marine we intend to have after the war, and these are the methods by which we intend to secure that the Mercantile Marine is kept up to that figure."
    I would ask Members to take a figure in their own minds, to work out the consequences and then to ask themselves what would probably be the reactions on the minds of other Governments and the peoples of other countries of announcing such a policy and whether what we all desire to achieve in the long run would be likely to be facilitated by that course of action. I do not believe that Members of the Committee, if they put that question to themselves, would have any doubt as to the answer. Here, perhaps, I should
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    say at once that while I greatly appreciate what the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) said about my particular work in this war, I must disappoint him, if indeed he expected that I could add anything substantially to what my colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker), said earlier in the Debate on behalf of the Government and about which my hon. and learned Friend commented with not only great but unmerited severity. I think it. is clear to Members of the Committee that we are still removed, if indeed we are permanently removed, by too short a space of time from anxiety about our war shipping problem for us to apply the different criteria and standards we need to apply in framing after the war policy. It is unfair to expect the Government at this moment to anticipate discussions with other Governments and to prejudice those discussions by announcing the kind of policy which has been asked for to-day.
    For reasons which are, I think, sufficient, I am not authorised to add substantially, on the questions which have been mainly raised to-day, to my hon. Friend's statement. But there are one or two short comments that I might make on some points which have been made after he spoke. The hon. Members for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) and West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) both suggested something more in the way of an eloquent tribute to the heroism of the men of the Mercantile Marine. Speaking personally, I feel that I am now disqualified for paying such a tribute, for two reasons. The first is that, as has been said by several Members, what they rightly expect is that the Government will do something in the future to help them to avoid the disasters which followed the last war, and not just fine words. Tributes should, indeed, be paid, I feel that they come very much better from those in authority, for example, in the sister Fighting Services who have shared their hazards and hardships than from one like myself who happens to be in a position of safety in civilian employment. To my mind it would be impertinent for me to try to speak eloquently of the courage of these men. It is not, heaven knows, because I do not feel strongly enough about it.
    The Debate has covered a very considerable range, both of subjects and of

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    time. I hope hon. Members will not judge its value solely or mainly by the character of the answers they have had from the Government Bench. I think the utility will consist very largely in the questions that have been put, the arguments that have been used and the considerations that have been urged. When one is in a transition from a series of war problems to post-war problems, there is a great deal to be said for two Debates at some interval of time, in the first of which the questions are more important than the answers, and in the second of which the answers may be more important. Anyhow, for the reasons I have mentioned, we are not able to say more in substance than has been said by my hon. Friend on the questions which have been raised.
    Because I think so much will necessarily depend upon the relations between ourselves and America, and the negotiations which will take place between us with regard to shipping matters, I should like to say something as to the character of the American contribution. In the first place, as one who has been at every stage in intimate and close contact with those who took the decisions to increase the American building programme, I want to say with conviction that whatever ambitions may now be suggested by the existence of a great Mercantile Marine, there is no doubt that the motive for the construction of that Mercantile Marine was clear, simple and definite. It was simply to create a vitally needed instrument of war and as such it has been used. That, I think, is something we should all remember when we pass to the consideration of what may be the secondary, and at the time unintended, consequences of the existence of that great building capacity and of that great Mercantile Marine.
    I do not now propose to say anything about the British contribution to the solution of the shipping crisis. Many statements have been made. Members of the Committee realise and appreciate fully both the British contribution and that of those European Allies whose Governments have been situated in this capital. I should however like, taking that ass a background, to say something as to tie transatlantic contribution. I say
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    the transatlantic contribution because, as I have been reminded, not only the United States but Canada, too, has made a very great contribution. While I have been stationed at Washington I have had the privilege of seeing very closely the Canadian shipbuilding and shipping effort in close association particularly with Mr. C. D. Howe, but also with other Canadian Ministers. I have also been in touch with my British colleagues who have been concerned with other aspects of the Canadian effort. I believe we all feel that that effort has been one of the most remarkable things in the history of the British Commonwealth. Take the shipping side only. Canada between the two wars built no ocean-going ships at all. She is now building, in addition to corvettes and other protective craft, approximately the same merchant tonnage as we in this country. She has shown an astonishing capacity to adapt her industrial production to what is most needed in the war. She has combined this with a broad visioned policy, both in the allocation of what she has produced and the financial terms on which it has been put into the war effort. I think the unadvertised but, I hope, not unappreciated generosity of the conditions and terms on which Canada has placed her shipping at our service, in the closest collaboration with us, is extremely remarkable, but it is paralleled by what she has done in other spheres of the war.
    I entirely agree with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hythe in remarking upon the efficiency of British shipbuilding, measured either by cost or by man-hours. When we are thinking of the difficulties of future competition we must, of course, remember that the share of world shipping will not depend solely, or perhaps mainly, upon the amount of tonnage which happens to be under the flags of different countries at the time when peace comes. It will depend upon the comparative cost of building and of operation, and the policy of the different Governments with regard to support and subsidy, and the general framework of international trade and agreement in other spheres.
    That being so, it is as well to remember that we shall have the advantage of lower costs of production and operation. It will be necessary to enter into negotiations to attempt to arrive at agreement

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    on quite a number of things with America, such for example as the position of shipbuilding after the war, which was the question raised by the hon. and gallant Member for North Newcastle-on-Tyne (Sir C. Headlam). American shipbuilding this year will be somewhere in the nature of 20,000,000 tons deadweight. It is clear that if we take that and add to it the shipbuilding capacities of other countries, including our own, capacity must not only be greater than but must exceed by many times, perhaps 10 times, the normal capacity required for peace-time replacements of obsolescent ships. Therefore, we must discuss with America and some other countries some of these problems before the time of peace. The figures I have mentioned, both as regards the amount of building and the cost, show that the interest and motive for such negotiations are not an interest and motive confined to ourselves. Other countries and certainly America will have an interest in coming to some arrangement with us.
    I have been asked by several Members to refer more fully to what has been the nature of the contribution of America to the shipping crisis of the last few years. I would like to tell the Committee the history of that contribution. There have been two periods in this war when the shipping situation has been so serious as to threaten the whole issue of the war, and twice the balance has been restored (to use a transatlantic slang phrase, twice we have got out of the red) by the efforts of the United States. The first of these periods was in the spring of 1941, and I would like to remind the Committee of what the shipping situation was when in March of that year the Prime Minister asked me to go to Washington. Our imports of dry cargo goods amounted at that time to little more than half the rate of our pre-war imports. They were falling rapidly. We were losing several times as much as we were building, so that, bad as the situation was at the moment, the prospect was very much worse indeed. Our stocks were dangerously low and falling rapidly. It was quite clear that we were not only in grave danger but in fairly imminent danger either of famine conditions here or of closing our factories through lack of raw materials or being unable to supply adequately and enlarge our Armies in the Middle East and elsewhere. It was clear that action quite outside our own resources
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    at that time was essential if these dangers were to be avoided. There was only one possible place from which aid on the scale required could conceivably come, and that was the United States of America.
    The United States, however, had at that time quite a small Mercantile Marine, as the hon. Member for Sea-ham has reminded us. More important than that, it was building on a very small scale. Between the two wars America had practically gone out of the shipbuilding business until shortly before the present war. I believe that in the 10 years before 1936, apart from some tankers, only two ocean-going freighters had been built in America. Even in the Spring of 1941 the building was at the rate of less than 1,000,000 tons a year. It was clear that if the grave situation was to be met, that amount of building needed to be increased, not doubled or trebled or quadrupled, but multiplied at least by five. That was not all. America was a benevolent but a neutral country. The action of her Executive was restricted by the Neutrality Act, which made it illegal for any American ships to go into a war zone. The President had also to deal with a political situation at a time which we shall all remember and which certainly added to the difficulty of giving us the aid we required. He himself ardently desired to give it, and he was advised and assisted by such principal advisers as Mr. Hopkins and Cabinet Ministers, such as the Secretary of State for War, who is now in this country. He was also ardently supported by the heads of the Departments, true friends, such as Admiral Land and Admiral Vickery, who was entrusted with the building programme, and the Petroleum Administrator, Mr. Ickes, and his Deputy, Mr. Ralph Davies. It is astonishing how quickly, so advised and assisted, the President met our dire need.
    Up to this moment, April, 1941, except that we had bought for cash a few old ships from America, we had no ships at all from the American Government, and the resources of the American Government were limited, as I have explained. Within a few months the President had removed the Red Sea from the war zone, and immediately large numbers of American ships under the American flag, with American crews, were carrying our stores to the Middle East. Almost at the same moment

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    he directed the Maritime Commission to put no less than 2,000,000 tons, over 200 ships, into the war service, and shortly afterwards that figure was increased. By the early autumn we had had such assistance from America that our anxiety was completely relieved. Our 1941 imports, both dry cargo and oil, exceeded our consumption. Our stocks were higher at the end of the year than at the beginning. More than that, the prospects of the future looked assured. The American building programme for 1942 had been raised from the 1,000,000 tons of 1941 to no less than 8,000,000 tons. That 8,000,000 tons, with bur own and Canadian building, gave us then a rate about double the current rate of loss. So that we had the ships we needed, we had the prospect of additional ships as we needed them, and there was between ourselves and America a rate of building greatly in excess of the rate of loss at that time. In a word, the shipping crisis, which had been of the utmost gravity in April, had found the real solution, which looked as if it would have been and probably would have been a permanent solution for the scale and character of the war as it then was, that is to say, a European war and not a global war, as it became with the entry of Japan.
    Then came the second period, which ultimately proved quite as serious, even more serious. Japan entered the war, losses increased immensely and now extended to American ships. In the spring of 1942, with the great losses off the American coast particularly, not only were we losing several times as much as we were building, but the United Nations as a whole were losing more; indeed, in spite of the increased American building, America herself was losing more than she was gaining. And from her diminishing fleet America had also to meet the demands of the Pacific war. By the summer we were again in an extremely grave crisis. America then raised her building from 8,000,000 tons to 14,000,000 tons. By the autumn, as the situation had grown for the moment even more serious, the losses continuing, and the strain of the North African expedition being added, the American programme was raised to nearly 20,000,000 tons. That increase was accompanied by a declaration of policy negotiated by Mr. Douglas with us and endorsed not only by Admiral Land but by the President, under which the increased mercantile building was declared
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    to be regarded as available not for the American war effort only but for the war effort of the whole of the United Nations and allotted wherever it was most required. Following up that declaration of policy and that increase of building, schedules were worked out. Early this year we received a definite schedule meeting our needs and covering provision for the whole of the rest of the year, so that as far as can be humanly foreseen we have passed from the sphere of major negotiations to the sphere of daily co-operation in carrying out an agreement, formally made, sufficient for our needs, and with a definite duty resting upon the War Shipping Administration to carry it out in accordance with its letter and spirit.
    That agreement has further been relieved of any danger it might have met by the great improvement in the general shipping position and the dramatic diminution in losses which has recently taken place. Doubtless we must expect losses again to be serious. We have not finished with the submarine yet, but we have a reasonable hope that month by month we shall continue to have more ships at the end of the month than we had at the beginning. The Prime Minister has indicated the great extent of our net gain in the month of June. That was an especially fortunate month, but it is not the only month in which the net gain has about reached seven figures. We have a reasonable hope now, I think, that month by month we shall not only have more ships, but as many more as are required, not only to carry what we are now carrying but to meet the extra needs of our expanding Forces. Indeed, if the situation continues to improve rapidly—and this is one reason why I was so happy to have an opportunity of speaking to-day—at no very distant date it may seem that what America did in increasing her building and in allocating her ships to us was both easier and less important than it was. I think it is well to realise that when she took that decision, when she increased her building to a scale beyond what the best experts both in this country and hers thought was possible, she acted in circumstances of extreme difficulty, and she did what has proved to be absolutely of crucial importance for the conduct of the war and our fortunes in that war.
    We shall have, doubtless, many difficulties in the future, many extremely

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    difficult problems to solve, and agreement will often be difficult. But I think we can all draw hope and encouragement for the future, and for the problems of post-war settlement and agreement, from one successful example of collaboration, that happily does not stand alone, in strengthening what was for so long the weakest link in the whole chain of the Allied war effort.
    Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again"—[Mr. James Stuart]—put, and agreed to.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again upon the next Sitting Day.

    SHIPPING

      DEFENCE REGULATIONS (TRESPASS ON GROWING CROPS)
      Mr. Levy: I beg to move,
      "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty praying that the Order in Council dated 10th May, 1943, made under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Acts, 1939 and 5940, amending Regulations 61, 62A, 62AA, 100, Dar and 102 of the Defence (General) Regulations, 1939, a copy of which was presented to this House on 25th May, be annulled."
      I hope the House will agree that where a drastic or fundamental change in the law takes place, it is not unreasonable that the House should have the opportunity of discussing something which is vital to nearly all the members of the population. I do not want anything I may say to-day to be construed as an attack upon my right hon. Friends the Minister of Agriculture and the Parliamentary Secretary, because I think we all agree that they have done very good work for agriculture. But here we have an Order in Council and it is needless for me to remind the House that an Order in Council can also be called a legislative incubator, because it hatches out orders, sub-orders, sub-sub-orders and regulations and rules, none of which can be discussed by this House except by means of Questions, or, if we are successful in getting a special day for a discussion. There are between 16,000 and 17,000 allotment holders in this country.
      Earl Winterton: The hon. Member, inadvertently, I think, said 17,000 allotment holders. I know of 6,000 allotment holders in one borough alone. I think he meant 1,700,000.
      Mr. Levy: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that correction. I left out some noughts. If this Order did anything to protect the food which allotment-holders and others are growing, or did anything to prevent the pilfering of or damage to that food, I should not be standing here to ask for its withdrawal. If the powers contained in this Order merely augmented the present powers for the protection of what is grown by allotment-holders or farmers, I should not move this Motion. But in order to make out my case and to convince the House, as I hope I shall be able to do, I have to show that this Order is unnecessary; that the Minister has ample powers in the courts; that it interferes with the liberty of the subject and will create a vast number of criminals out of innocent people. The law of trespass which this Order would reimpose existed in the old feudal times, when the universal franchise did not exist, when the great landowners imposed the law, and when thousands of innocent people were turned into criminals. The common people agitated for centuries in order to get this and similar laws abolished and they succeeded at the end of the 17th century, in the year 1694. That was the position in the good—or bad—old days. By an Order in Council it is now proposed to re-impose the very criminal law which the common people fought against for centuries. Therefore it is a retrograde step.
      Prior to the war penalties, which included imprisonment, had been provided by various statutes for theft and malicious damage, respecting many different kinds of property, including plants and crops. The Larceny Acts of 1861 and 1916 still operate and apply to plants and crops. The Malicious Damage Act, 1861, dealt with damage to plants and crops. I submit that most of the offences to which attention is now being called can be dealt with under those Acts. The position at the outbreak of war was that the trespasser could be sued for damage by the occupier of any land in any event, and that theft and damage of plants and crops were covered as criminal offences by statute. There is a good deal of misapprehension as to the power of the Minister, and people are very much concerned about the theft, damage and pilfering which take place on various allotments. They think that the proposed Order will be a cure for those

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      evils. At the outbreak of war, the Minister took power, under Regulation 61, under the Emergency Powers Act, to provide that a trespasser on agricultural land on which there was growing any crop other than grass, who damaged the crop, should be liable to a fine up to 50. The Minister has that power now, and the Order does not increase it.
      Earl Winterton: May I ask my hon. Friend a question to elucidate his argument? Surely the Acts to which he is referring relate to crops in market gardens and farms, but not to grass or to the hay crop.
      Mr. Levy: I was coming to the question of the hay crop and I did say that those Acts excluded grass.
      Earl Winterton: The original Acts?
      Mr. Levy: Yes. The second provision was that the Minister of Agriculture could specify by Order—I think this will partly meet the point made by my right hon. Friend—any agricultural land and, provided there was a warning notice, any trespasser thereon should be liable to a fine up to £50. The point made by my right hon. Friend is covered, because on land anywhere in the United Kingdom that is specified by the Minister, it is a criminal offence punishable by fine or imprisonment to trespass, and it is not unreasonable to expect a notice to be displayed. To use an analogy, an Order which provided that no motorist should exceed 30 miles per hour in a built-up area would be unreasonable, unless a notice was displayed showing when the motorist arrived at a built-up area. Some so-called built-up areas have no buildings on either side of the road where the notice is displayed, and without the notice, innocent people who kept on driving at a certain speed until they came to a building, would be committing a criminal offence and might be made to suffer. Therefore the notice is a necessary provision. I will try to give a further analogy later on.
      Mr. Turton: Does my hon. Friend suggest that he would not be able to see an allotment when he came to it?
      Mr. Levy: if my hon. Friend will allow me to develop my own argument I think
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      I shall cover that point, I hope to his satisfaction. Let us take the first question, that of trespassing on an allotment. Nothing is said about doing any damage. The mere act of being on an allotment without an excuse is a criminal offence under this Regulation.
      Mr. Silverman: Not without an excuse but without a reasonable excuse.
      Mr. Levy: A reasonable excuse.
      Mr. Silverman: That makes all the difference.
      Mr. Levy: I am sorry I left out the word "reasonable." The first question that arises in relation to a member of the public is what is an allotment. Allotments and allotment gardens are defined under the Allotments Act, 1922. It is true that members of the public are supposed to carry with them, either in their heads or on a piece of paper, the precise definition of what allotments are. Ignorance of the fact is no excuse in law. Therefore, they are supposed to carry this knowledge around with them. Let us consider for a moment—and I shall try to answer my hon. Friend's question—the position of a member of the public walking across, shall I say Barnes Common, or any common. Some part of it appears to be given over to growing garden produce, and in all innocence, being interested in gardening, he strolls over to have a look at it. First, he has probably no indication at all of where the common ends and where the allotment begins; there is no notice, and there need not be any warning notice under this Regulation. So if he stands in one position on that common he is a law-abiding citizen; if he stands in another position on the common, he is a criminal. He walks a little further and crosses a path of beaten earth between two cultivated patches. Is he on the allotment or on the common?
      Mr. Silverman: Suppose he has one foot on each?
      Mr. Levy: This is really a joke, I agree. It is hilarious. I am hoping to laugh this thing out; that is the object. This gentleman who is out for a morning stroll, and who happens to be interested in gardening, perhaps comes across a part of the common where he sees, say, some

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      runner beans and puts his foot off the path just to have a look. He does no damage whatever. He is a criminal under this—
      Mr. Silverman: No, he is not.
      Mr. Levy: Oh, yes, forgive me. He has to refer to the slip of paper which gives the precise definition of an allotment under the 1922 Act. He has to ask himself whether the cultivated area is more than two acres in extent. If it is, he is a law-abiding citizen; if it is less than two acres in extent, he is a criminal. I am quoting from the Allotments Act. He also has to inquire whether the cultivated area is held by a tenant under a landlord—I am quoting still from the Act. If it is, he is a criminal, but if it is not, he can safely put his foot down. I do not know the legal phraseology; I will leave that to my hon. Friend. He may, previously, have taken the precaution of having measured the area. If it does not exceed 40 poles in extent, he is not technically on an allotment at all; he is on an allotment garden, always provided it is being cultivated by the occupier for himself and his family.
      Let us turn to the position of a member of the public who trespasses on any land on which a crop is growing. The question is, when is a crop not a crop? Consider the question of grass, which was explicitly excluded from the previous Regulations and which is included in the amended Regulations. A member of the public steps on to a field where grass is grown. Is he a criminal or is he not? That depends on what the owner of the field is going to do with the grass. If he is going to leave that grass for grazing, the man is not a criminal, as it is not a crop; but if he is going to grow that grass for hay, it is a crop. I want to emphasise that there is no notice. If the owner of the land is going to keep this grass for hay and the man treads on it, if the grass remains down, he is a criminal, but if the grass obligingly springs up again he has done no damage, and is a respectable citizen. The position of a member of the public previous to this Regulation was a reasonable one. The previous Regulation with the other Statutes afforded all the protection that the Minister could reasonably require for all growing plants and crops, including all allotment crops, throughout the country. Nobody dis-
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      putes the need for the protection, particularly in war-time, of all growing crops. We all know what picnic parties do, and how people can go into hay fields and damage crops in the country, and we know the pilfering that goes on in allotments. But I argue that that is all provided for.
      A member of the public strolling anywhere in the United Kingdom in the neighbourhood of a growing crop, including grass—and, believe me, nowadays you cannot stray very far without being in close proximity to one—may be suddenly transformed into a criminal, although he has no notice of the Regulation, of which he has probably never heard, although he has no intention of doing damage, and probably does no damage whatsoever. When he is standing on a given spot he is either an innocent stroller or a criminal; depending on a number of questions, not of law but of fact, of which, in the nature of things, he cannot have any knowledge. We consider that this Order is unnecessary; we consider that the display of a notice ought to be obligatory. For an innocent person to run the risk of becoming a criminal, where he has no knowledge that he is committing an offence, is a serious thing. If he is arrested he goes before a magistrate, who says, "I have very great sympathy with you, but I am here to administer the law, as laid down by Parliament,"—and that innocent man or woman may be convicted of a criminal offence. That is a slur not only upon the person, but upon his family, for all time. It was because of the vicious criminal law that existed prior to the 17th century that the agitation for freedom and liberty was so intense, and people managed to have it abolished at the end of the 17th century. I hope that this House will not allow it to be reimposed in this Order and thus bring us back to the bad old days.
      Flight-Lieutenant Challen: I beg to second the Motion.
      In doing so I desire to emphasise, as my hon. Friend has done, that there is not the slightest desire on our part in moving the Prayer, to aid and abet in any way wanton damage to corn crops, allotments or any form of growth. I am well aware that there is a strong feeling in the country on the subject of damage to allotments and I can understand that any Member

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      of this House, and, a fortiori, any member of the public, in reading such an Order as that which has now been promulgated might imagine it to be very reasonable and desirable for the prevention of wanton damage to allotments. I again emphasise that, if I felt that this Order was really necessary, I would not dream of seconding the Prayer to annul it, but when you examine it in relation to the law of trespass, and the customs and habits of the people as they have prevailed in the countryside of England for many centuries, you find that on analysis it goes very far. It is very wide. It is very indefinite. It does not even specify that the person trespassing on an allotment has to be on the actual part where the plants are growing. It says, "Land used for the purpose of allotments."
      I can imagine a good many legal quibbles being devised upon that phraseology. One point which an hon. Member opposite attempted to make was that the words "reasonable excuse" might be sufficient. You might have many legal arguments, in an appropriate case, on such a question as that. The whole background of the law of trespass is that there is no excuse in law for going on somebody else's land. Everybody knows that perfectly well. People in the country districts know well that if they walk across a field which is not their own property, they may be liable for trespass. They also know that unless they do damage, the landlord or farmer has no effective power to bring an action against them. Therefore, you find this ingrained habit of our people of walking across fields, and, on the part of children, of romping and playing in fields. They regard the countryside as open common, provided they do not do damage. The country people know well that the notice, "Trespassers will be prosecuted" means nothing at all. There may have been vindictive landlords—I have never met one myself—who would like to make trespass a criminal offence and to prosecute anyone walking across a field, whether he did any damage or not. This Order does give power to prosecute whether there is damage or not. If my hon. Friend opposite is going to rely upon the words "reasonable excuse" as sufficient in an Order of this sort, he may be raising many serious legal questions. There is no excuse for going on somebody else's land.
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      What this Order is doing is to make it a criminal offence, without getting proof of damage at all. Had such a law been sought to be enacted at any time during the past few hundred years, it would not have been given a first Reading; it would not have passed through Parliament. It is only under Emergency Regulation procedure that such a Regulation could be contemplated. Serious as the circumstances in which we live may be, and serious as may be the damage to property, all the more seriously should we consider whether we should lightly allow a stringent Regulation, altering the law of trespass, so that it becomes a crime, to be passed by this House. It is easy to laught at the points which my hon. Friend the Member for Elland (Mr. Levy) raised, but the fact that they were amusing only shows the ridiculous lengths to which we can go in drafting an Order of this nature in a few lines, an Order that violates the fundamental customs of our people.
      Although this Order may end when the war finishes, it may be the thin end of the wedge. However short a time it is in force it will have a serious psychological effect on people who are in the habit of walking across fields and who have always regarded themselves as entitled to do so. To be told by a policeman or any other official, that one can be haled before a magistrate and fined, as if one had committed a criminal offence will be a shock to those who discover that they have broken the law. We have heard a little too much of the facile saying, "ignorance of the law is no excuse." It is high time that the people were told the law, if we are bringing in a law of this nature. I see no objection at all to some qualification of an Order of this kind. The existing Order, which would be sufficient if properly enforced provides that notices shall be displayed informing people of the penalty to which they are subject. If it is said that boys pull down these notices, such an argument is trivial because the land is flooded with notices telling people what they must not do. We see War Department notices, forbidding people to go on Government property, in all parts of the country. Everybody knows we are at war and people will obey such notices if they see them. An unqualified Order of this nature is not one that the House should pass without the closest examination and I hope some justification for it,

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      as distinct from the one it superseded, will be forthcoming. At present there appears no real reason for this new Order.
      Mr. Silverman: I so rarely have the opportunity of defending the Government in connection with Defence Regulations that I propose to give myself a holiday to-day by taking the present opportunity. There is no Member of the House who has watched more jealously than I have these Defence Regulations. There is no one who has been more willing to criticise and oppose the Government when Regulations have gone beyond the limit of what I think to be reasonable. But it seems to me that the whole of the criticism of the Government on these matters is prejudiced if Members move Prayers against perfectly reasonable Regulations merely for the fun of it. This is really a very remarkable Debate. We have a Prayer moved and seconded by two of the most reactionary Tories in the House, with the support of one of the leaders of that group who have recently been described as Vichy Liberals, against the rights of landlords to be protected—
      Mr. Levy: Will the hon. Member justify what he means by Vichy Liberals?
      Mr. Silverman: I would not attempt to define it. I simply quote the phrase.
      Mr. Holdsworth: To which Member does the term apply?
      Mr. Silverman: I again prefer to leave it as I put it.
      Captain C. S. Taylor: On a point of Order. A very grave accusation has been levelled against either myself or one of my hon. Friends. Will the hon. Member please define what he means by a "Vichy Liberal"? I regard the term with the greatest distaste, and I would ask him to say to whom he is referring.
      Mr. Silverman: One hears from time to time a great many expressions used in debate which awaken distaste on the other side. That is what debate is for.
      Mr. Holdsworth: Is the hon. Member entitled to use about any Member a term which carries with it the greatest opprobrium? I am very proud to be a Liberal, but I do not care whether this applies to Labour, Liberal or Conservative. Is it a proper term to use?
      Mr. Speaker: No point of Order arises here. Hon. Members are entitled to present their case as they think fit. Whether it is regarded with some distaste or not does not matter in the least. All I am concerned with is whether it is within the bounds of Order, and the expression used, whatever it may mean, does not appear to be outside these bounds.
      Mr. Silverman: If the hon. Member sees anything in it which makes him put the cap upon his own head, that is his business and not mine.
      Mr. Holdsworth: There is not a Liberal of any kind on the Paper.
      Mr. Silverman: Perhaps it would be as well to get back to the subject before the House. Two reactionary Tories have moved a Prayer. Their interest has usually been on the side of the landlords, and not of persons who go upon the land. I wonder what the hon. Gentleman did in the days before the war when the Access to Mountains Bill was before the House. It seems to me in this instance that he is making a mountain out of a molehill. He said that the Regulation is going back to the old vicious legislation and that he does not want to see it perpetuated. The Regulation is a Defence Regulation and will come to an end with the Act under which it is passed. It is passed to meet the exigencies of the war, like a great many other Defence Regulations.
      What does it seek to do? It says that you shall not, unless you have reasonable excuse for doing it, go upon an allotment. What is the objection to that? To-day we have to use every particle of space to grow food. A great many people are devoting a lot of time in order to raise food supplies, and a great deal of damage is being done by careless and vicious people straying upon allotments, sometimes with a dishonest purpose and sometimes not. What can possibly be wrong with saying that in war-time, when we need to conserve every bit of food, people must keep off allotments unless they have a reasonable excuse for going on them? What does the hon. Member object to? Then he says it is not confined to allotments but includes any cultivated land, but that is only if damage is done. Surely in these days it is not asking too much of people not to do damage to cultivated land and growing crops. I have every sympathy

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      with watching carefully Regulations promulgated by the Government and seeing that they do not go too far. If they do not go too far, the Government are entitled to support from every one of us.
      I cannot see anything in this Regulation which ought to attract the kind of opposition that has been indulged in. The hon. Member who moved the Prayer talks about notices and about becoming a criminal without knowledge and all that kind of thing. Presumably the Order will be promulgated in the ordinary way. There is nothing to prevent an allotment holder putting a copy of the Order at the entrance to his allotment. There is nothing to prevent a local authority that has set land aside for allotments taking care to see that the Regulation is brought to the notice of people who might stray upon allotments.
      Mr. Ralph Etherton: Does the hon. Member appreciate that there is nothing in the Regulation which provides that that should be done?
      Mr. Silverman: Why should there be? This is a Regulation which will be published in the ordinary way. The Government will not get the Regulation promulgated and then conceal it. They want the Regulation so that people shall not commit these offences, and I am certain they will take proper steps to see that when they have these powers people know that the powers exist.
      Sir Herbert Williams: Surely the hon. Gentleman has not read the Regulation, for he does not seem to be aware that it has been in operation a month, and that the Government have done all the promulgating, which is not very much.
      Mr. Silverman: If it has been in operation a month, I understand still less what the objection is to it on the ground that people do not know it. If they do not know it, it is a reasonable request to the Government to take steps to see that it shall be properly known. I would support such a request, but I would not regard it as a reason for supporting a Prayer against the Regulation. That is carrying the thing too far. Something was said about making new laws. Do hon. Members realise that under the existing law it is a criminal offence to do damage to cultivated mushrooms?
      Mr. Levy: I agree. That is what I am saying.
      Mr. Silverman: All the Government are proposing to do is to protect a lot of other crops as well as mushrooms, and I hope that those Members who make a pastime of attacking Defence Regulations will not spoil the efforts of those of us who like to make serious criticisms from time to time by raising trivial Prayers against perfectly reasonable Regulations.
      Mr. Norman Bower: I agree with the hon. Member for Nelson and Come (Mr. Silverman). I hope that the Minister will not be deterred by this opposition from proceeding with, this excellent and very necessary Order. The hon. Member far Elland (Mr. Levy) said it would do nothing to assist the growing of food or increase the safeguards for allotment holders. There are approximately 5,000 allotment holders in my constituency, and I can assure him that they are unanimously in favour of this Order, because they realise that it will do a great deal to protect them, and that without it much of the labour and effort which they are exerting in responding to the appeals to grow more food will be wasted.
      Mr. Levy: My hon. Friend seems to be entirely under a misapprehension. This Order does no more than give the Minister permission to have these prosecutions without displaying a notice. The Minister has already power under Regulation 61 to do all that my hon. Friend has said.
      Mr. Bower: I was coming to the display of notices. The whole point there is that these warning notices are frequently pulled down or defaced. People who are intent upon pilfering take very good care to remove the notices if they can, with that very object in view. If the notices are not there, they cannot be prosecuted for their offence.
      Mr. Levy: Yes, they can.
      Mr. Bower: Under this Order, but not without this Order.
      Flight-Lieutenant Challen: Has the hon. Member read Regulation 61, under which they can be prosecuted for the offence of pilfering, whether there is a notice or not?
      Mr. Bower: They can be prosecuted for pilfering, but cannot be prosecuted for

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      going on the land unless a notice is displayed. People who are intent on pilfering frequently walk over the land for some considerable time without actually doing anything, until they think they are not being watched, and that is why it is necessary to be able to prosecute them for going on the land without having warning notices exhibited. Under present conditions it is very difficult for local authorities to find the necessary labour to replace the notices and the boards. As an example, in Wembley, most of which is in my constituency, no fewer than 50 notices on 96 sites were either defaced or pulled down in the space of one month. That gives an idea of the measure of this problem. In my opinion this Order is absolutely necessary. It may be a regrettable interference in some respects with the liberty of the subject—I think we should all regret it in normal times—but these are not normal times. This is wartime and we have to give every possible help and encouragement to people to grow more food, and in my view this Order is urgently required and will be a valuable protection to allotment holders, and I hope the Minister will proceed with it undeterred.
      Mr. John Wilmot: I am rather surprised that the hon. Member for Elland (Mr. Levy) should have taken the line he has taken to-clay. It is very regrettable that such an Order has to be made, and it would be even more regrettable if this sort of thing were to be embedded in the ordinary law. One of the advantages of this procedure is that it is temporary, for the war period, and will automatically lapse when the Statute comes to an end. I am an inveterate trespasser. My principal recreation is walking about the country, and, as an hon. Member has said, the habit of walking over grassland without doing damage is part of our national heritage, and we do not want it interfered with by all sorts of additions to the ordinary law. The hon. Member must be aware of the very urgent need there is for doing something to curb the growing practice of mean and despicable people of roving about allotments and looking for opportunities to steal other people's hard-won crops, and the hon. Member will find little thanks for his attempt to stop the Minister from doing what millions of people will be grateful to him for doing. The point about notices encounters the difficulty
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      that there is neither labour nor material for making fences and notice boards in order to carry out the ordinary law. Surely it is not too much to ask the House in these times and in all these very special circumstances to approve of a Regulation which, normally, would be very distasteful and unnecessary.
      The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): I am in some ways very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Elland (Mr. Levy) and to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hampstead (Flight-Lieutenant Challen) for putting down this Prayer, because it will serve, 7 hope, to provide greatly needed publicity on this question. Let me deal briefly with the legal aspect of the matter. Both, unwittingly, I am sure, failed to give anything like an accurate account of the legal aspect. Under peace-time conditions, trespass was not in itself a criminal offence, contrary to what my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hampstead seemed to think, and it was not possible to prosecute a man for walking over a field so long as he did not do any clam-age. If he walked over grass, it was impossible to prove damage, and in fact you could walk over grass.
      Mr. Silverman: Even if one did damage, that was not a criminal offence.
      Mr. Hudson: No, it was a civil offence.
      Flight-Lieutenant Challen: I did not follow the Minister's remark that I appeared to think that trespass before the war was a criminal offence.
      Mr. Hudson: Then my hon. Friend had better look at Hansard in the morning.[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I think I am within the recollection of the House. It is clear that before the war you could wander over fields without being prosecuted at all. [Several HON. MEMBERS: "He said so."] Then I must have missed it. At any rate, the position was altered at the beginning of the war by the original Defence Regulations, which provided that a person trespassing on agricultural land, of any description specified in an Order by the Minister of Agriculture, would be guilty of an offence. This particular Regulation requires that notices should be displayed warning the trespassers of their liability. Later, in September, 1939, my predecessor made an

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      Order, under Regulation 61 (2), specifying that any land used as allotments or allotment gardens was agricultural land for the purpose of that Regulation. In July, 1940, I made an additional Regulation, paragraph I (a), making it an offence to trespass on ordinary agricultural land in such a way as to damage growing crops. That was done because, during the Battle of Britain, people were inclined to rush over land to look at crashed German planes. The House will therefore see that the recent Amendment to Regulation 61 does not make any revolutionary change in the law applicable under war conditions. The only difference this Regulation makes from the conditions and the law under the wartime Regulation existing before this last Regulation is that it is no longer necessary for a notice to be put up on an allotment before a person can be prosecuted, a very narrow point. That is the only difference this Regulation makes.
      Mr. Etherton: Plus the inclusion of grassland.
      Mr. Hudson: No, I do not think so.
      Mr. Etherton: Yes.
      Mr. Hudson: I will make sure of that, but I am dealing with allotments. I in elect made grass a crop in May, 1941.
      Sir H. Williams: In the Order of 1(a) it says, "Any crop other than grass." Grass is brought in under this Order.
      Mr. Hudson: I will have that checked up. Let me deal with allotments and inquire why it is necessary to make this alteration. Before the war, in the overwhelming majority of cases allotments were fenced, and therefore they were to some extent protected, and before the war the police had more leisure than they have to-day. Since the war we have been conducting an intensive "Dig for victory" campaign, and we have been urging everyone who possibly could to make themselves and their families self-supporting in vegetables as a contribution to the war effort in order to save shipping and in order to release farmers for producing other crops. The result of that has been very striking. The number of allotments has risen from 930,000 to 1,675,000. The number of private gardens being cultivated for the growing of vegetables has risen from 3,000,000 to 5,000,000. There-
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      fore the fact that that has been done has definitely made an invaluable—I use that word advisedly—contribution to our total war effort. But at the same time, as some hon. Members have said, it is a regrettable fact that pilfering and damage, both malicious and involuntary, have been on the upgrade, and I have been receiving letters from all over the country in increasing numbers.
      After all, as part of this "Dig for victory" campaign we have taken vacant building plots scattered throughout towns and turned them into allotments. There is no fencing or anything, but everyone must know and recognise when a piece of ground is being cultivated. It may not be easy to define what an allotment is, but it is like an elephant—you recognise it when you see it. We want to make it abundantly clear to the public at large that for the period of the emergency, that ground is the property of the man who works it. The object of this is to serve with a notice all and sundry that an allotment belongs to the person who is working the land and also to his family. I would like to read one letter from a serving naval rating:
      "It is precious little my wife has bought in two years and she is rightly proud of it, for with a number of people making every effort to support themselves, the remaining agricultural produce in the country will go round better amongst those who are unable to do anything like that. But there is a fly in the ointment and that fly is becoming a nasty sore. Stealing from allotments. It is a nasty business. It doesn't begin and end there. Many of us would willingly give to those who are needy, but to have produce stolen is disheartening Can nothing be done to deter this type of criminal? The devil take those who are too tired and lazy to ever do anything except invent excuses for doing nothing."
      That is very typical of the letters I am receiving by shoals. I think that if the writers would only send them to hon. Members, instead of to me, there would be a demand from all sides of the House for this sort of Regulation. It is distasteful to us to have to bring in Regulations creating new offences, but we have been extremely patient; we have applied every possible alternative remedy we could think of. With the increasing demand made on people for Civil Defence, fire guard and so forth, and the increased demands on the police, it is a physical impossibility to exercise supervision over these allotments. Even where a policeman is on his beat and he sees someone

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      on an allotment, the person obviously is not going to be such a "mug" as to steal right under the policeman's nose. The policeman has to go on his beat, and the man then steals the onions, or whatever it may be. In future, the man will be prosecuted unless he has a reasonable excuse for being on the allotment. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has sent a circular to chief constables pointing out the necessity of exercising discretion in this matter, and seeing that people are not prosecuted if they can give a reasonable excuse.
      Sir H. Williams: Has the Home Secretary interpreted the word "reasonable"?
      Mr. Hudson: No, Sir. That obviously will be left to the magistrates. We have a system of justice in this country, and the people to decide would be the bench of magistrates. Cultivating an allotment to-day is work of national importance, and nothing is more disheartening, not only to the man concerned, but to the whole neighbourhood, than if theft is going on. It soon spreads, and everybody thinks he will be the next victim. As my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow (Mr. Bower) said, it is idle to say that we have existing powers, and that they are adequate. He has pointed out that in one borough alone, Wembley, notices which were posted up were defaced or taken down in 50 cases. So long as the notice was taken down or defaced, the man could not be prosecuted. It was to meet that difficulty that, very much against our will, we brought in this Regulation. I believe that, with the safeguards I have explained, it will not be misused, and that it will give added confidence and heart to the men, who are doing this job.
      Sir H. Williams: The first comment I have to make on the Minister's speech is that he had not read his own Order, because he did not realise that his Order brought grass for the first time into the purview.
      Mr. Hudson: I understand that the only difference which is made about grass is that a man can now be prosecuted without a warning notice being put up, but damage has to be proved. I brought it in because I remember the question being raised of grass being used for hay and for silage.
      Sir H. Williams: Paragraph I (a) of the original Order reads as follows:
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      "If, without reasonable excuse, any person trespasses on any agricultural land in the United Kingdom on which there is growing any crop other than grass."
      Grass is specifically exempted. This is now repealed by the Order I have in my hand, which says
      "trespassers on any land."
      For the first time grass is brought into the scheme. That is a little disturbing. The Minister says that the justification is that pilfering is on the increase. The hon. Member for Harrow (Mr. Bower) says that people go wandering about, and when you are not looking they steal. He described something which must have been seen. If they were seen, then the offence would be seen. He says that it is necessary to have this because an offence is not seen. Therefore his own statement is a complete contradiction.
      Mr. Hudson: Until this Regulation was imposed a man could wander with impunity over allotments so long as the notice had been defaced or torn down. In future, whether there is a notice or not, he will not be able to do that unless he can show reasonable excuse.
      Sir H. Williams: The right hon. Gentleman was dealing with a point with which I was not dealing. I have come back to the point of the hon. Member for Harrow, who deprecated the method of pilfering. How can you describe those habits unless they were seen? I suggest that he was imagining these things. [Interruption.] He must have imagined them, because, if seen, a prosecution would follow.
      Mr. Bower: What I was saying was—and I think the point was dealt with by the Minister—that they wander about on these sites, that they may be safe while wandering about and doing nothing, and then afterwards, when they are no longer being observed, they pilfer.
      Sir H. Williams: That is exactly what I wanted the hon. Member to say. Every person who is seen on an allotment in future is to be a suspected person. [Interruption.] It is no good getting angry. The sole object of this is to stop pilfering or theft. The reason you prosecute is because you think that a person on an allotment is about to commit a theft. In the law as it was he would not be committing an offence by being there.
      Mr. Hudson: Yes, he would.
      Sir H. Williams: Take the peace-time law before the Defence Regulation. Trespass was not a criminal offence. It was a civil offence against the person who owned the land. The person who owned the land could ask a person to withdraw, and if he failed he was entitled to use reasonable force for the purpose of removing him from the land. If he resisted he committed an assault, on which a summons could be taken out against him for assault. But it was not presumed that because a man was on land which was not his own he was about to commit a crime. Now the presumption is that he is about to commit a crime—the crime of theft—and for that reason you have made it a crime for him to be on the allotment. [Interruption.] It is no good hon. Members making charges and getting excited over "Dig for victory" and sentiment. You are turning every person who goes for a country stroll into a potential criminal in the sense that he can be charged.
      Mr. Silverman: Would the hon. Member explain in what way this Regulation circumscribes the liberty of any reasonable person?
      Sir H. Williams: Certainly. On Sunday afternoon I went for a stroll past one of the allotments in our park to which the Minister has referred. I saw two people digging for victory with enthusiasm, and I exercised the Briton's right of watching other people work. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood), who is always most angry if anyone interrupts him, seems to take a delight in interrupting me. It is neither very intelligent, nor is it characteristic of the good manners of the Scottish race.
      Mr. Kirkwood: What do you mean, mental or physical?
      Sir H. Williams: As I was walking past the allotment I stopped to watch the operations, and at that moment a constable came along, and I engaged him in conversation. I said to him, "Do you know that if I walked from this pavement on to that path you could possibly issue a summons against me?" The policeman said, "A summons in respect of trespass? Trespass is a civil matter." I said, "It was, but it is not now" and he replied, "What is happening to our liberties?" This was the instinctive reaction of a normal citizen who happened to be a Metropolitan policeman. When I
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      told him what the law was he expressed great surprise. My hon. Friend the Member for Elland (Mr. Levy) raised the question, "When are you trespassing on an allotment?" You are trespassing when you walk on a path dividing allotments because you are in the allotment area. If I went on to a path, I pointed out to a constable it would be his duty to find out why I was there, on the ground that I had no right to be there, and he would have to exercise his judgment as td whether the reasons I gave him were reasonable or not. If he thought they were not, it would be his duty to report me to his superior for a summons to be issued, and I should be under the obligation of defending myself and proving to the magistrate that my business there was reasonable. There is no case law, so far as I am aware, as to what "reasonable" means in this case. No case has been taken to the High Court; there is no interpretation of the word "reasonable" for this purpose. An enterprising constable who wanted to secure promotion could bring a vast number of cases before the courts. You could have the persecution of a great many people.
      An hon. Member behind me said a little while ago that this was only while the Act lasts. How long is the Act to last? The Defence of the Realm Act ran for at least two years after the last war, and before it was allowed to lapse a great many of the enactments in it were turned into permanent law. Many of us are old enough to remember the complaints that were made about the continuance of "D.O.R.A." after the last war. There has been no assurance whatever that a great many of these Defence Regulations will not be enacted in our Statute Book if certain people in the country have their way, and it is just as well to put our objections on record now. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) jibed at my hon. Friends who moved and seconded the Motion and asked what was their attitude to the Access to Mountains Bill. I do not know what their attitude was, but I do know what my own was. I opposed it for the obvious reason that there is all the difference in the world between maintaining the sensible law of trespass we had in this country before the war, which meant that in the ordinary way people could go where they wished and be removed if they were doing harm, and giving people the unqualified right to

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      go on land with great prejudice sometimes to growing crops but still more to animals we were grazing on what was mountain land. We try to take the intermediate position. I do not think the Minister has made out his case for these very drastic powers; there is no safeguard whatsoever for the liberty of the subject, and having regard to the very considerable unfamiliarity with Orders shown by the Minister and everyone who has spoken on his behalf—
      Mr. R. J. Taylor: The hon. Member is the only one who knows.
      Sir H. Williams: I do not say that, but at least those who have supported this Prayer have read this Order, which is not true of other speakers.
      Mr. Silverman: Will the hon. Gentleman answer the question which I intervened to put and which he promised to answer? In what way does this Regulation limit the liberty of any reasonable person?
      Sir H. Williams: Take the position as it was before the war, After all, if this Order is annulled now, it also annuls Regulation 61, and you go back to the pre-war position. If the Minister studies the Interpretation Act, he will find that I am right. His Majesty has already repealed Regulation 61. I do not know whether the Minister realises that. If this Order is annulled, Regulation 61 is not revived, therefore the effect of the annulment is to take us back to the position as it was before the Emergency Powers Act was passed. For that reason I am entitled to compare the position under the Order with what it would be before the war and, that is what I am doing.
      Now I will answer the hon. Member's question, since we have cleared up the constitutional point, with which the Minister was not familiar. Before the war any person who was either on an allotment or in an ordinary field could be asked to withdraw, but he was not ipso facto a suspected person. To-day every person is a suspected person on the ground that he might be there for the purpose of committing some other offence and, to prevent him committing that offence, he is charged with trespass, in the case of an allotment, trespass by itself, or if some damage can be shown it is only necessary to prove technical damage to secure a conviction. I think I have answered the point.
      Mr. Levy: Having regard to the fact that, if this Order is annulled, Regulation 61 will also be annulled—
      Mr. Hudson: I am not a lawyer, but I am advised that the fact of annulling the Regulation would not be to annul 61.
      Sir H. Williams: This is a constitutional point of substance. I made a statement as to the effect of annulling the Regulation, and the Minister has made a further statement, This point arose some four or five months ago on another Order. Steps were taken to inquire of the Law Officers of the Crown—I was one of those who made the inquiry—and what I state now is based on information supplied me at the time in an entirely analagous case by the Attorney-General.
      Mr. Levy: As the information at our disposal, which eminated from the Law Officers of the Crown is that this would cancel 61—
      Earl Winterton: On a point of Order. May I ask exactly what the proceedings are? I have always understood that except by leave of the House no one could speak twice on the same Order.
      Mr. Speaker: The Mover of the Order has the right of reply.
      Mr. Levy: I was endeavouring to say that, in view of the fact that it would, according to the information at our disposal, cancel Regulation 61 and since we have aired what we considered to be a grievance in the fact that people might innocently become criminal because no notice was displayed, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
      Hon. Members: No.
      Question,
      "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty praying that the Order in Council dated 20th May, 1943, made under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Acts, 1939 and 5940, amending Regulations 61, 62A, 62AA, 100, 101 and 102 of the Defence (General) Regulations, 1939; a copy of which was presented to this House on 25th May, be annulled,"
      put, and negatived.
      The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
      It being after the hour appointed for the Adjournment of the House, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

FOOD SUPPLIES
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  Appointment, Belfast (Termination)
  Appointment, Belfast (Termination)
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  Domestic Animals
  Cheese Ration (Agricultural Workers)
  Cheese Ration (Agricultural Workers)
  Ration Books and Identity Cards
  Ration Books and Identity Cards
  Post-War Importation (Necessities and Luxuries)
  Post-War Importation (Necessities and Luxuries)
  Beer (Distribution)
  Beer (Distribution)
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  Sugar (Bee-Keepers)
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  Retail Deliveries (St. Andrews) Order
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  DEFENCE BOND BOOKS (DESPATCH)
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Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (VISCOUNT CRANBORNE) (Lord Cecil): My Lords, I beg to move that the sitting of the House to consider the Motion of the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, be in Secret Session. I should tell the House that, in accordance with the assurance that I gave to your Lordships, I have consulted the War Cabinet on the matter of this Motion, and they are firmly convinced that it could not possibly be taken in public.
Moved, That the sitting of the House to consider the Motion of the Earl of Mansfield be in Secret Session.—(Viscount Cranborne.)
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, if that is the view of the War Cabinet, of course, no exception can be taken to it. But I must say that I feel regret that we should have once again a Secret Session, particularly in view of the fact that at most of the Secret Sessions that I have attended nothing has been said in the course of the debate which could not well have been proclaimed from the housetops.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

GLOUCESTER GAS ORDER, 1943.
PORT TALBOT GAS ORDER, 1943.
GAINSBOROUGH GAS ORDER, 1943.
WANDSWORTH AND DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1943.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name on the Paper.
Moved, That the Special Orders as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday be approved.—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932:
URBAN DISTRICT OF ELLESMERE PORT ORDER.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE EARL OF MUNSTER): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name on the Paper.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, and laid before the House yesterday, be approved.—(The Earl of Munster.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MARRIAGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Order of the day, for the House to be put into Committee on re-commitment of the Bill, read.
THE EARL OF MUNSTER: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Munster.)
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, on this Bill there is a point I would like to raise, but the Home Office have asked me to defer it until the Third Reading.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly: Bill reported without amendment.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROV ISIONAL ORDER (BUCKS WATER BOARD) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROV ISIONAL ORDER (CHILTERN HILLS SPRING WATER) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.

FORTH-CLYDE CANAL.
LORD TEVIOT LORD TEVIOT had given Notice that he would call attention to the advisability of constructing a great ship canal between the Clyde and the Firth of Forth; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am indebted to my noble friend Lord Brabazon for putting an idea in my head. If your Lordships will recollect, he produced a scheme some months ago, so to speak, out of the pigeon-hole. I refer to the harnessing of the Severn tide. It occurred to me that in these days of planning it might be just as well to have a look round and see whether there were not some concrete plans which had been, so to speak, set aside; and that brought to my mind the question of the canal from east to west, or from west to east, whichever way one likes to look at it, of that narrow bit of Scotland between the Clyde and the Forth.
There is no doubt that this is a very big subject. It is one which has received a great deal of consideration in the past, but I am bringing it before your Lordships now in view of the fact that it has not been considered since 1930. As we well know, there have been events of great importance since that date which have quite altered what might have been the ideas of those days. Another reason why I am bringing the matter forward is that the Hydro-Electric Development (Scotland) Bill, which is now before Parliament, is going to mean that an immense amount of power will be available not far from the site of this canal. I am one of those who believe that, if this canal is built, industries will spring up contiguous to it because of several things. First of all, we have a very large population quite close; there is a great deal of coal; and, if the canal is built, a great deal of oil will be stored there. There are other raw materials of importance which, in my view, should induce great industries to set themselves up, as they will then be in the position of getting their raw materials by the cheapest possible method of transport —namely, water.
I am not asking for a definite decision to-day. All I ask is that the Government shall take into consideration this debate, and whether or not this scheme, which has not been looked upon with favour in the past, may not be now carried out. I have read a great deal about this scheme. There seems to have been such violent
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criticism of it from some quarters that I feel that the criticism must in some way come from those who are prejudiced. It is curious, in looking up the criticism of other canals, such as the Suez Canal, the Kiel Canal, the Manchester Canal, and the Panama Canal, that there has been this very strong criticism against building them—such criticisms as the "sea bubble," "it will never pay," and, in regard to the Manchester Canal, "it will reduce to beggary 800,000 people." All these prophecies have been wrong. Some of these canals, like the Manchester one, have ended in a cul-de-sac with an outlet only at one end. For that reason alone this Forth and Clyde Canal deserves further consideration.
This is not a new idea. It was first mooted, as no doubt many of your Lordships know, in the days of Charles II. When we come to modern days, with this great competition between countries, between trade and commerce, if we can by any means lessen the cost of transport, surely it is going to be of very great benefit to the country generally. Larger cargoes mean lower freights. And there is another point. This, in my view, will be a world service. Criticism has been made, I know, that you will never get an Atlantic ship coming into Glasgow to use the canal, that she will go either north or south in order to get to Western Europe. I somehow or other cannot believe that. I know there is the question of vulnerability from the bombing point of view. The Germans were at El Alamein, a very short distance from the Suez Canal, and although they tried to bomb it—and I believe on some occasions did bomb it— it did not make the slightest difference. Traffic may have been delayed a little, but it did not stop the materials or the stores going through the Suez Canal to our troops fighting in North Africa.
I am not in a position—there are noble Lords who are in a position—to express an opinion from the naval point of view. It seems to me that, when our eastern ports are so vulnerable from the point of view of repairing our battleships, it would have been a magnificent thing if we had had this canal, in the last two years particularly and indeed in the last two wars. Owing to the anti-aircraft defences, a bomber which has to fly across land has a very difficult job if it. is going to bomb a repair works on the west coast, while this tip-and-run business on the east coast

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seems to me a thing we have to think about. But I will leave that question to those who know far more about it than I do. That is just a layman's opinion. Then there is the danger, particularly in war-time, to a ship wishing to get to the west or to the east, to the North Sea or to the Atlantic. Imagine the dangers at the moment for such a ship of going through the Channel or through the Pent-land Firth. There must be danger due to submarines, whereas if there were a canal in existence the ship could quietly go through it and would be quite safe while passing from west to east or in the opposite direction.
Then there is the question of the saving of time and distance. In regard to this I will give your Lordships one or two illustrations that I have received from a reliable source. For instance, a ship which in the ordinary way went from Leith to Belfast seventeen times in a year would be able, if she used the canal, to go more than twenty-three times. I will not give the fractions. Then if a ship went from Leith to Glasgow, instead of sixteen times it could go twenty-five times; from Glasgow to Amsterdam, eighteen times instead of fourteen times; from Liverpool to Hamburg, fifteen times instead of thirteen times; from Liverpool to Copenhagen, fifteen times instead of fourteen times; from the Tyne to St. Lawrence, seven times instead of six times. Nobody knows better than my noble friend who is to reply how important it is for a ship to be working as hard as she can, and it seems to me for that reason that from the mercantile point of view this canal would help very much. If one draws a line from Bergen to Antwerp, I believe there used to be a great deal of coastal shipping coming from there to these shores, and the canal would be very useful to such shipping. Our own coastal shipping and those ships coming from the west of Europe could go through the canal to the large ports on the west coast.
This is a great national question. As I have said it has been thought of and discussed for many years. There are exhaustive reports by the most highly qualified engineers on the subject. One is bound to find that an enterprise of this sort will not suit somebody. I am not going to mention names, but it is peculiar that certain places have always been against this project, and quite obviously
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they are against it because they think that it is going to injure their past record of prosperity. I cannot see that anyone is justified in being influenced by any consideration such as that. We have to look at this question and all questions in the future in a national way and in an international way. There is one thing I cannot quite believe. Can your Lordships, for example, imagine a ship arriving at Leith and wanting to go west, not naturally wishing to use the canal in doing so? And, vice versa, would not a ship which had got to Glasgow and was going east prefer to use the canal rather than go round by the north or the south, and thereby greatly shorten the time she would take? That would be particularly so if the vessel wished to refuel. I can see characteristics in that part of the world being quite altered owing to the facilities which this canal would give.
There is no difficulty whatever in building it. There is no question about that, particularly in regard to the short route which would have no locks, and would have sea gates at each end. Let us visualize for a moment the question in bad weather. In winter a captain arriving in the vicinity and asking himself: "Shall we go round through the British Channel or through the Pentland Firth with the possibility of there being a thick fog at either place, or shall we just pop through the canal?" would almost certainly choose the last-named course because the inducement to use the canal would be so great. Then as regards our fishing fleet, I can see no reason why it should not use the canal, and I would suggest that special dues might be allowed the fishing fleet to do so.
I come now to what has always been in every Scotsman's mind, the question of the drift south. This project would mean the employment of a tremendous number of people at probably a very difficult time for ourselves, soon after the war. By its means large numbers of men would find permanent employment if some people are right in thinking (and I believe them to be right), that new ventures would be started on the banks of the canal. It would also have this effect, I think. At the present time we have terrible centralization. We do not want to increase the size of the big towns which in all conscience are already big

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enough. We want to decentralize trade and commerce throughout our island. That being so, the cutting of this canal and the development of the hydro-electric scheme might relieve very much the congestion in the big towns in the south. Here you would have, I hope and believe, a new centre of industry which would not only relieve that congestion, but also relieve the congestion of the labour market. Turning for a moment to the question of land values, there would undoubtedly be an increase in the value of land contiguous to the canal, and it is quite justified that we should take notice of that. After allowing the owners of the land a reasonable amount, the rest of the increase should go either to the Canal Corporation or, if the Government built it, to the Government, so that the increase in land values would accrue to the benefit of the whole scheme.
Some of the criticisms which I have read in the past are not applicable in any way, I think, to the present day. No doubt many of your Lordships have been surprised when going to a place which you had not visited lately to see tremendous upheavals due to mechanical diggers and other modern methods of altering the face of the earth. As I have said, criticism of this scheme has been very violent, but curiously enough the critics have never given any thought-out or real reason for their objection. I hope His Majesty's Government will take serious notice of this question and will not be influenced by people who just say things without giving good and sound fundamental reasons for them.
I come lastly to the question of cost. The canal will cost a lot of money, but looking at some of the magnificent modern machines which are working in all parts of the country on excavation, and remembering that the canal will be only roughly thirty miles long, I think that with modern machines the work can be done at far less cost than would have been the case, say, ten or fifteen years ago. That, however, is a matter for the engineers. They know far more about that than I do. The question of upkeep has to be considered, but in the light of modern machinery I think that would be much easier and less expensive than in the past. I leave the question of cost to
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the engineers and others who have studied the matter for so long. I have put this matter before your Lordships in a very general way. There is an immense amount of evidence on this subject and, having read all I can get hold of in the last few weeks, I have come to the conclusion that the reasons for the canal are very much stronger than the reasons against it. I make an appeal to my noble friend that this matter shall have the very serious consideration of the Government for the reasons which I have stated in a general way. I beg to move.
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND: My Lords, I promised the noble Lord who raised this Motion that I would say a few words in support. I do not want to repeat all the very excellent arguments that he adduced, but I do think there is a very great deal in what he said. We in Scotland should take advantage of the peculiar geographical accident that Scotland has a very thin waist. We have seen canals built all over the world, in the British Empire and in America, France and Belgium and even in England, where geographical reasons were less strong than in the case of this particular canal; but I suggest that we should begin by getting canals working at home before we think of building canals in other parts of the Empire or other parts of the world. I can remember well that many years ago my father was Chairman of a Commission or Committee which sat to consider the question of cutting a canal from the Forth to the Clyde. It is a long time ago, but I remember his telling me about it. Nothing happened at that time, but I think it is very useful that the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, should revive a project which I believe would be a very fine piece of work after the war.
Excellent reasons were advanced, as I have said, by my noble friend, and although as compared with the Suez Canal or the Panama Canal or other great canals, it is a small project, none the less it would be of tremendous advantage in proportion to the cost. I consider that the advantages of this canal are both great and solid. It would greatly reduce the distance, as your Lordships have already been told, between many ports. I do not think my noble friend actually mentioned those ports, but there would be a great shortening of the distance from Leith, the port

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of Edinburgh, to Montreal and New York, or to Belfast, Liverpool or Dublin. There would be a similar shortening of distance between Glasgow and Aberdeen, Glasgow and Dundee, Glasgow and Newcastle, and Glasgow and Hull. Not merely would distance be saved, but as the noble Lord pointed out the very dangerous crossing, which I know well, of the Pentland Firth—I do not suppose many of your Lordships have passed through it without being seasick unless you are very good sailors—would be eliminated as far as the vast bulk of our shipping is concerned. Ships would either go through the canal or through the English Channel, thus avoiding the dangerous tide rips and the fog and every kind of pestilential weather experienced during nine months of the year in the Pentland Firth. The construction of the canal would bring also a vast economy of time and coal for all shipping on these routes.
At this moment when we are hoping that the development of hydro-electric power in Scotland will benefit the population, I cannot help thinking that this scheme will be just as great a benefit, if not indeed a greater benefit, for the population of the Highlands in the employment it will give. That is why I think the noble Lord was right to urge the project to-day. No better scheme than this could be presented after the war at a moment when we start looking round for work that is really both useful and economic to give to the vast numbers of men who will be coming back from the front and wanting employment of that kind. Quite apart from that if these two large Firths could be connected in this way it would, to my mind, be of enormous benefit to the internal economy of Scotland as a whole. I understand the whole route has already been carefuly studied by experts and an interesting and detailed report has been prepared by them. When you think of the vast network of canals that has been profitably built throughout France—one from Paris to Marseilles has just been finished, I believe, and many others have been constructed—one realizes that here is something at our very doors that should definitely be undertaken by the Government.
In the first place, His Majesty's Government should undoubtedly have a survey, a proper and official survey, for the Mid-Scotland Ship Canal, and should have an estimate of the cost prepared.
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The Manchester Ship Canal, as your Lordships will remember, brought untold millions into the Bridgewater family. No doubt your Lordships have read about it in that interesting book about the Duke of Bridgewater and know what he had to do with shipping and canals in the Manchester district. The Manchester Canal was an enormously profitable undertaking, chiefly owing to the amount of coal it moved about in the clays when railways were only starting. Now that canal is thirty-five miles long. This projected Scottish canal which we are discussing to-day will be only twenty-nine miles long I cannot help thinking that there is no reason why this canal should not be just as profitable as, or even more profitable than, the Manchester Canal. Finally, I consider this a more useful scheme for Scotland than any other which we can think of at the moment. It would be fully as useful as the hydroelectric scheme about which the Secretary of State for Scotland is so enthusiastic. I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will consider it and press it, and will see, if the answer which is given to-day is not satisfactory, that the matter is raised again. I believe that this scheme is something that would be of real benefit not only to Scotland as a nation but to the people of Scotland throughout the length and breadth of the land, both in the Highlands and in the Lowlands.
THE EARL OF GLASGOW: My Lords, in the year 1908 the question of the construction of a Forth and Clyde Ship Canal was very much in the forefront. The two lines of country along which the canal route would run were the same then as they are now, but the forty-mile sealevel route via Loch Lomond and Alloa was favoured then as being the least expensive. To-day opinion appears to be that the canal should run from Old Kilpatrick on the Clyde to Grangemouth on the Forth a distance of twenty-nine miles, and that it should be at sea-level, which of course will cost a very large sum, something like £50,000,000. This would be a great deal of money compared with the cost of a lock canal along this route, which was the idea in 1908, or compared with the sea-level Loch Lomond route. But if money were no object a sealevel canal by the short route would certainly be the better proposition.

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I cannot understand why this project was not taken in hand many years ago. What a relief the construction of such a canal would have been to Scotland in the bad old days of unemployment, if, of course, regulations had been made to prevent an influx of Irish labourers. Certainly the experience of the last war showed that a waterway of this kind was necessary. But nothing was done. Presumably the country was lulled to sleep by the perspicuity of our politicians who told our people that wars and preparations for wars were over and that rearmament was unnecessary. The strategic necessity of the canal for the Navy is important, and it must be so obvious to the Government and to your Lordships that it is needless for me to say anything about it. But what is more important is its usefulness to the Mercantile Marine of all nations, since one hopes that the world will enjoy a long period of peace after this war is over.
We should find out beforehand, I think, whether or not it would be largely used by these ships, especially as the greater the number of ships sailing through this expensive waterway, the less heavy would be the burden on the taxpayers. I hope to be able to throw some light on this. In 1908 I was very interested in the question of a Scottish Ship Canal, and, as a serving lieutenant, I wrote the only article which I have ever written for a magazine, which, to my surprise, was accepted. I got into considerable trouble with my captain because in those days serving officers were not allowed to write for the Press or for magazines. But he was a very kind man and he smoothed matters over for me at the Admiralty. I had a question asked in another place as to the number of ships from ports in the Baltic, Denmark and Germany, which entered the ports of Glasgow and the Clyde, Belfast, Dublin, Liverpool and Manchester in the year 1906. Unfortunately, I have not been able to look up the answer which I received, but I remember that the number of ships, many of them carrying timber, was astonishing; and after inquiries from shipowners I came to the conclusion that most of them would make use of the canal if the dues were moderate.
If one looks on the United Kingdom as a great barrier stretched across the route for ships sailing "between ports in America and Canada and the Baltic, Denmark and Germany, it is apparent that the point for
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it to be pierced must be the Clyde which is on the shortest route by great circle sailing. After getting the opinion of a large number of shipping lines in 1908, I was certain in my own mind that a canal constructed at one-third of the cost of the present sealevel project, and administered, as it might have been, partly by private enterprise would, in time, have been a paying proposition. Even allowing for less favourable conditions after this war than in 1908, it is probable that the burden on the taxpayers may not be as heavy as one would naturally expect from a Government-run concern, although the taxpayers would probably have to pay a great part of the interest on the £50,000,000.
I have looked up the Report of the Royal Commission on Canals and Waterways of 1909. The proposition was then to construct a lock canal from Yoker on the Clyde to Grangemouth on the Forth at a total cost of £23,000,000, the cost of excavating being £17,000,000. The policy put forward was that the Government should guarantee to the Forth and Clyde National Association 3 per cent. on £20,000,000 after the canal was opened and pay interest on capital during construction. The alternative to this was for the Government to take over the undertaking themselves. The present proposal is, as I have said, very costly, but there are good reasons why it should be carried out. Apart from the strategic value of this ship canal to the Navy and its certain use by foreign ships, including a number of great passenger lines, our own coasting trade would make good use of it. There is a considerable trade between Aberdeen and Glasgow at the present time, partly by rail and partly by sea, and, if the canal was available, the shipping trade between Aberdeen and Glasgow would greatly increase. In 1908 there was a large coastwise trade between Glasgow and London, and that still continues. With a canal linking Glasgow and the Forth, ships would prefer the east coast route, because it would mean a saving of time as compared with going round Lands End, and it would pay them to use it, especially if they could get cargoes en route. In 1908 it was calculated that if a 5,000-ton coal ship going from the Forth to Glasgow could use the canal, instead of going north about, it would mean a saving of 100 tons of coal. Another witness before the Commission pointed out that after the Forth

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and Clyde barge canal was completed it had the effect of attracting many industries, and made the industrial belt of Scotland still more industrial. With a great ship canal, one would expect still more industries to come into that part of the world.
I am sorry to give your Lordships so many instances dating from thirty-five years ago, but, after all, the position will not be so very different after this war, and this canal, in my opinion, is even more necessary now than it was then. Even if it is not possible to start the work now, I hope that the Government will see their way to adopt the proposal immediately as a war emergency measure. By exercising their powers now they will save considerable delay, for otherwise after the war it will be necessary to introduce a Bill, which would be a long business. I hope that the noble Lord who is to reply will not give us the usual assurance that the project will be examined as part of postwar planning, but will tell your Lordships that work will be started on this important national scheme as soon as labour is available. I realize that, generally speaking, it is difficult for the Government to give an assurance of that kind, because anything might happen after the; war, but in this case I venture to think that the Government could make a promise acceptable to my noble friend Lord Teviot.
For one thing, there would be no opposition from the Party of the noble Lords on my right. This project is one after their own hearts. It will be tremendously costly, and the money will be found by the taxpayer and not by private enterprise. It will have to be run by the Government, or by a Government Corporation. Over and above that, its construction will give employment to great numbers of people. All this should be agreeable to noble Lords on my right and to the Party which they represent, and should make it easy for the noble Lord who is to reply to give us an assurance on this matter. I am glad that my noble friend has put this Motion down. I have mentioned the naval point of view, but I do not advocate this canal entirely from strategic considerations, from the point of view of preparing for another war. We must think of this matter also as a
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great peace-time project, which will be of service to our Mercantile Marine and carrying trade, and therefore to the country.
THE DUKE OF MONTROSE: My Lords, I hope I may be allowed to intervene to make a few remarks on this subject, perhaps not altogether in harmony with the chorus of approval in favour of this project. I have studied the question of a Forth and Clyde Canal for about thirty years, and not without reason. As your Lordships will probably have gathered, there are more routes than one which have been proposed for the canal, and one of those routes runs, for a very large proportion of its constructional area, right through the middle of my estate. I first began to take an interest in this matter about the year 1909, when the chief protagonist in favour of the canal was a very distinguished admiral, the late Admiral Sir Charles Campbell. He sponsored the formation of an association called the Forth and Clyde Canal Association. He got behind him seven other admirals almost as distinguished as himself, and in reserve he had behind the admirals seven generals, almost of the same calibre as the admirals. Behind the generals he had a great galaxy of valour and talent from the two Houses of Parliament, and not least from your Lordships' House. With the temerity of youth, I entered the lists and opposed the gallant admiral on platforms and in the Press. With the coming of mature years, I am still unrepentant, and I am ready to oppose this scheme again.
It has been put forward on several grounds. First of all, it might be a help to the Navy; secondly, it might be a good commercial investment; thirdly, it would provide work for the unemployed. I was surprised to find so much sympathy given to the Yoker route for this canal. The route generally favoured is that the canal should go via Loch Lomond. I know every mile of both routes intimately. In 1919, both these canal projects were carefully investigated on behalf of the Glasgow Chamber of Commerce by the great firm of Armstrong Whitworths, and after going into all the routes—the first route via Loch Lomond and then into Loch Long, and another route into Loch Lomond and down the river to Dumbarton, as well as the Yoker route—they came to the conclusion that the Yoker valley scheme

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should be scrapped. It was more difficult to construct than the Loch Lomond route, and it was very much more costly. They said that it would cost half as much again, even taking into account the use of all the latest machinery. In any case they came to the conclusion that the cost of constructing a Forth and Clyde Canal would make it the second most costly canal in the world. Even at that time it would have cost £826,000 per constructional mile, and by the Yoker route it would cost 50 per cent. more. The total cost, they said, would be £33,000,000 via Loch Lomond and £49,000,000 by the Yoker route. That was in 1919; wages have advanced a great deal since then, and I think it would cost £59,000,000 or £60,000,000 to-day.
That is a prodigious sum, and that is merely for the construction of the canal. If merchandise is to be loaded along its route, it will be necessary to construct loading basins, which will add greatly to the cost of the canal. If the Yoker route is used, there will be opposition from almost all the dock authorities on the Clyde and the Forth, because they have gone to vast expense in providing railways for the transit of goods from the Yoker valley either to the Clyde or to the Forth for shipment, and, if those goods can be loaded in the ships along the course of the canal, these new docks will lose an enormous amount of revenue. I think there is no doubt that the Yoker route will prove far and away the most costly and unsuitable.
From the point of view of the Navy, when Admiral Campbell and his association started their campaign they had the idea that this canal might be of strategic value to the Navy; it might so happen that you would find the British Navy on one side of Great Britain and the enemy's Navy on the other. That presupposes very grave faults in our naval intelligence. Such a thing might have happened in the days of Nelson when the Navy was under sail. But that was before the days of wireless and before the days of aerial reconnaisance. Such a thing would be impossible to-day, and we have the evidence of the last war and the present when the enemy fleet was bottled up in harbour by our Fleet from the first day of the war. I still believe in the old Masonic motto that the frontier of
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England is on the enemy's coastline. If that is the case, then this canal, from the point of view of the Navy, is useless. Admiral Campbell and the powerful body supporting him pressed so hard that the Admiralty actually appointed a Committee to investigate it. Mr. Haldane, or the late Lord Haldane as we would know him, one of the most able men who ever adorned your Lordships' House, was the Chairman of that Committee.
He went into this question, and he was asked in another place what was the report of the expert committee on this canal from the point of view of the Navy. This is what he said in reply:
"The expenditure necessary to make this canal of any use would be enormously out of proportion to the value to be got from it. There was no prospect whatever of its paying as a commercial concern more than would provide for its upkeep. They were not anywhere near providing for interest on the capital. The conclusion was clear that the money would be enormously better spent in other directions, and this is the conclusion come to by the most distinguished Admiralty experts who examined the matter."
What can be said about this canal from the naval point of view when you get the most distinguished experts condemning it like that, and saying that the money would be enormously better spent in other directions? I believe it would. Then what advantage would the canal be to our commerce? The vast majority of our commerce to-day sails from the southern and western ports of Great Britain—from the Thames, from Southampton, from Plymouth, from Bristol, from Liverpool and from the Clyde. But ships leaving those ports would never use the canal. As for the east coast trade, that is mostly timber, coal and corn—trade with the Scandinavian ports and the Baltic. The ships leaving our east coast and trading with ports on the Continent, in the Baltic and in Scandinavia would never use the canal at all; so we may take it that a very large proportion of British shipping would never make any use of the canal, by whichever route it went.
And I must say that when you come to consider the cost of this canal, you find it is enormous. The Suez Canal is the cheapest canal that has ever been made. It cost £290,000 per mile. That was a canal made through an open desert area. There were no great industrial places to bypass, or factories to destroy, no telegraph lines or railway

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lines to interfere with; it was a straight operation through the desert, made with the cheapest labour, and it cost £290,000 per mile. Twenty-four years later we built the Manchester Canal, and that cost £428,000 per mile. Later there came the Panama Canal, which cost £1,500,000 per mile. Each time, as the years went by, canal construction became more costly, and there is no shadow of doubt that this canal that we are now considering would be the most costly of all, except the Panama Canal.
And now what about the canal as a source of employment for the unemployed? But are we going to have any unemployed after the war? I thought we had been talking about the Beveridge Plan as a guarantee or security against unemployment. We are to have £107,000,000 spent to provide subsistence for men attending training centres to train for industry. Are we going to have another £50,000,000 or £60,000,000 spent on digging a canal as an alternative training for industry with pick and shovel? If so, I do not think the Beveridge Plan will be so popular. I cannot conceive that it is right to make this canal solely from the point of view of providing employment. Of all labour in the world, unemployed labour is the most expensive, the most inefficient and the most wasteful. We had an idea in Glasgow of employing the unemployed on a public undertaking at a place called Palace Rigg, and it was not very long before Palace Rigg became a byword for discontent, waste and inefficiency. In London we had the same idea of employing the unemployed on public work, and they were employed in the parks, on open spaces and in gardens. At the end of the year the L.C.C. had spent £59,000 in wages, and the assessed value of the work was £7,800. You can imagine the appalling waste and inefficiency there would be when you had 24,000 men supposed to be working on this canal simply for the sake of unemployment. I think I can say that the prospects are exceedingly unpromising for this canal, by whatever route it goes, and the Yoker route is by a long way the most expensive; while from the point of view of the Navy, as a commercial undertaking, and from the point of view of unemployment I oppose it.
THE EARL OF ELGIN AND KINCARDINE: My Lords, I shall not stand long
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between your Lordships and the noble Lord who will reply for the Government, but as the eastern entrance of this proposed canal would be visible from my own bedroom window, it is probably appropriate that I should say something about it. Hitherto my energies have been devoted mainly to bridging and getting across watercourses in order to provide transport facilities for getting north and south in Scotland, and I must confess to having given more individual attention to those schemes than to this particular scheme which will create a new obstacle to such traffic. But undoubtedly there is in this project something which deserves very careful attention, and for that reason I was glad that the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, thought fit to place it on the Order Paper. I confess I had some anxiety when the noble Earl, Lord Glasgow, carried the thing rather further and pressed for this to be undertaken immediately, because the Government could undertake it during the war with greater facility than if we waited till peace-time.
THE EARL OF GLASGOW: I did not say it should be undertaken immediately. I said it should be put on the Statute Book, that legislation under war-time emergency powers should be passed so that there would not be any delay after the war in getting a Bill through.
THE EARL OF ELGIN AND KINCARDINE: That is the whole argument. The argument is to make use of the emergency powers given to the Government during the war to force through certain projects, whether they are digested or not. As most of your Lordships will have realized, particularly from the vigorous speech made by the noble Duke (the Duke of Montrose), this project has not been fully digested, and certainly could not be accepted unanimously as the verdict of Scotland. We have been talking of different routes. There is no cohesion of opinion as to which of these routes should be adopted. On principle, there is a great deal to be said for asking the Government to take the matter into careful consideration rather on the lines of Lord Nathan's Motion which appears later on the Order Paper—that the Government should consider these projects of postwar reconstruction and give them the proper priorities. That seems to me the place which this particular scheme should have now.

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We have had various points brought before us which emphasize this. The noble Duke, the Duke of Sutherland, pressed for the scheme because it would be a great help to the interior economy of Scotland. Personally I cannot think of anything that could upset the interior economy of Scotland more than driving a great ship canal right through the heart of its industrial belt, involving the necessity of a bridge across the Forth as well as a number of bridges across the canal if the road and rail transport of the country was to be allowed to continue. It therefore involves very large problems in addition to the problem of its construction. For all that, I again say that it is a scheme which should receive careful consideration from the point of view that a canal so situated, driving through the centre of Scotland, would not only provide a seaway from one coast to the other, but would provide on the banks of that canal the possibility of trading estates which might be of tremendous value not only to Scotland but to the country in general.
As to the usefulness in a small way of having a canal through central Scotland, I may give your Lordships an illustration; the fact that the two ferry boats constructed for the Queensferry passage, in 1928 or 1930, had to proceed from Dumbarton to Queensferry via the Pentland Firth, and one of them had a very rough passage. Again, when we are talking of a canal through central Scotland we are discussing, as I see it—certainly if it is to be of use to the Navy—a canal which will take the biggest ocean-going ships. That is a very different thing from the canal instanced by the noble Duke, the Duke of Sutherland, when speaking of the waterways of France and Belgium. If your Lordships agree that this is a matter of importance and that the Government's attention should be drawn to it, then on the lines of Lord Nathan's Motion it should be put in its proper priority.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, very briefly I desire to support this Motion and to ask your Lordships to consider particularly the temperate and measured speech of the noble Earl who has just spoken. Whether the great cost this great project would entail would really be justified is a matter to be investigated, but surely the best thing is that the whole project should receive thorough investigation
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by proper experts so that it may be realized whether it is feasible or not. Whether the canal might or might not be the most expensive the world has ever known does not really matter. It might be the most expensive and equally the most worth-while. Surely the great thing is that it should be investigated, particularly as there is, here at least, no danger of diminishing the amenity of Scotland. The area through which the canal would pass is one which is not of any particular scenic value and which is already largely industrialized. I hope, therefore, while deprecating that the Government should undertake anything definite in the way even of legislation during the war, they will at least assure your Lordships' House that due consideration will be given to this project in all its aspects.
LORD CHATFIELD: My Lords, I have only a few remarks to make, and speak as an Englishman with some temerity on what is really mainly a Scottish question. We have had a very bright debate, and it seems rather to have followed the lines of downright assertion and flat contradiction. It is very difficult for noble Lords to get a balanced view, but that will no doubt be given by the Minister who is going to reply. If I speak at all it is purely because the naval side of the question has been mentioned. It is a side of the case, and it would be wrong if no sailor other than the Earl of Glasgow, who has already given some very good advice, spoke on a matter on which he has some knowledge.
I was at the Admiralty during the years of peace when this subject came up. As your Lordships have been told, it is a very old subject which has been often thought of. It always appeals to men of imagination and enterpirse, whom we do not always have as our rulers in this country. In these two investigations, although I was at the Admiralty, I took no part myself. They were held in 1922 and 1929 by a small Committee mainly representing the Board of Trade, the Admiralty, and merchant shipping. They were held at a time, it must be remembered, when the conditions were very unfavourable to any consideration of the problem— that is to say, they were held shortly after the last war when we had been told there was never to be another. They were also held at a time when

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nobody was thinking of spending money but rather of saving it, at a time when we were dealing with international disarmament, and when the idea of spending £50,000,000 on building a canal when we could not get even £5,000,000 for a ship, seemed ridiculous to the Admiralty.
Therefore, in those days, our view was that the expenditure of so much money for a combined commercial and strategic purpose was not justified. We would rather have spent the money in other ways if we could have got it at all, which we did not. That being the case, what we have really got to consider is, have the bases on which this Committee advised the Government fifteen to twenty years ago changed? Are they the same, or have new conditions arisen due to the lessons of this war or to the prospect of future commercial practice, the future of our Merchant Navy, and the types, size, and speed of ships? None of us know, or very few of us here know, what are the lessons of this war as regards the sea, whether if we had this canal from the Firth of Forth to the Firth of Clyde it would have made any real difference to us in this war. Not that that alone would be a satisfactory guide, because the conditions of this war and the German occupation of Norway have entirely altered the value of our eastern coast bases, quite apart from the menace of air attack. I very much doubt in reality whether the Clyde canal if it had existed would have been of very great advantage, but it may have been. I do not know, but I think it is a circumstance which should be inquired into.
Then it seems to me that we ought to satisfy public opinion in this matter—and there is considerable interest in it—by having an up-to-date investigation of the question. It is not a difficult thing to do and it would not take very long, and if it was hold I think it would satisfy public opinion that the Government had not just turned it down out of hand because of old ideas. But it must be recognized that the value of the canal must stand on the commercial basis alone. The naval basis must not be an overriding factor. It is a factor but it is not an important factor. As has been suggested we are not likely, if we are going to have a better peace than we had before, to have another war for some years, though it
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will come one day no doubt. Therefore there will be no necessity from the purely strategic point of view to build a canal.
But the commercial side is very important. I personally doubt whether the saving of mileage is really sufficient in these days of fast ships and of long periods of ships at sea to make them use the canal, unless it can be so cheaply built that the canal dues will be far less than anything that has been anticipated in the past. When Kiel Canal was built the German Government did all they could to make merchant ships going from the Baltic and the east coast to England and the Channel use the canal. They failed. The Kiel Canal has never been really a commercial success because it was not worth the while of the merchant ship, just to avoid the journey round the Skagerrak, to go through the canal with its disturbances of locks, etc., just to save four hours in the time of its arrival in England. It does not make much difference, if you arrive at sunset, whether you arrive then or at midnight. The saving was not worth while, so the canal has never been a commercial success. Whether this canal, if built, would be a commercial success is a matter on which modern conditions justify an inquiry, but I would not myself put it higher than that. I very much hope that the noble Lord who replies for the Government will be able to say that the matter will be inquired into on the basis of up-to-date figures due to war experience and the prospects of the future as regards commercial practice.
THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT (LORD LEATHERS): My Lords, I should first like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, for once more having raised this most interesting subject. I think we shall all agree that we have had a very helpful contribution from all round the House. The fact that the Firths of Forth and Clyde are only separated by some thirty miles of land has always lent attraction to the consideration of schemes for cutting a canal between them. As one noble Lord said, King Charles II toyed with the idea but, as with all subsequent schemes, it fell to the ground because of the cost. Schemes of this kind had a very able advocate in Daniel Defoe. Throughout the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries many schemes were put forward for this canal but, broadly speaking, I think they

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reduced to two—one the direct route from Grangemouth to Clydebank, which would be about thirty miles long, and the other a route via Stirling to Loch Lomond, which would be about forty miles long. The first and obvious advantage urged in favour of such a canal is the shortening of the distance by sea that would be effected. Although the shortening of sea routes would be by no means negligible we must remember that in order to make the use of the canal commercially attractive it would have to be cheaper as well as shorter than the alternative route through the Pentland Firth. Canal dues therefore would have to be very low if the canal were to be used. It was estimated about a dozen years ago that to construct such a canal would cost £50,000,000 sterling or more; in spite of subsequent development in engineering plant the cost to-day would probably be higher. Unless therefore it could be shown that the traffic using the canal would be very large and that the benefits to industry, the improvements in site values, etc., were also very great, there could be no question of the canal being an economic proposition.
There remains however the strategic ground. Up to now it has been held that the strategic advantages were not sufficient to justify the expense of making a detailed survey. Such a detailed survey was estimated to cost about £35,000 twelve years ago and it probably would be a little more to-day. The canal has sometimes been urged on the ground of avoiding the navigational dangers due to frequent fogs in the English Channel. Statistics show that this argument is not well founded. Fog dangers in the English Channel are comparable with those in the Clyde from Ailsa Craig to Glasgow. Furthermore fog is more prevalent in the Clyde than it is in the Pentland Firth where in any case there is ample sea room and the fairway is by no means crowded. A Committee was appointed to consider this project by the then Minister of Transport in 1929 under the Chairmanship of the Chief Economic Adviser to the Government. There were also on the Committee representatives of the Admiralty, the Scottish Office, the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Transport. This Committee reported against the proposal. They came to the conclusion that the whole of the capital would have to be provided by
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the Exchequer and that the revenue to be derived would be conjectural. Even if it were sufficient to cover maintenance and working expenses the return, if any, on capital would be negligible. The Committee furthermore saw no prospect that the development of the canal area would justify the expenditure.
In weighing the Report of this Committee it should be remembered that there was at that time considerable pressure to find suitable public works for providing employment. This need does not exist at present, and is unlikely to arise in the course of the next few years. Nevertheless we should keep this consideration before our minds. On the other hand, it may be that new circumstances have arisen which would greatly intensify the demand for transport between the east and west coast of Scotland. The whole question of post-war economic development in Scotland is very relevant to this canal project, and we must remember that views which were right twelve years ago will not necessarily be right after the war. There can obviously be no question of undertaking the construction of such a canal now, nor can I hold out any likelihood that it will be undertaken in the immediate post-war years. Even if it were unanimously held that the canal was desirable on general grounds, there will be many reconstruction projects of much greater urgency to be fulfilled after the war which would necessarily take priority over the building of this canal.
The problem will be, not to find a useful way of investing £50,000,000, but to ensure that available energy, labour and resources are expended in ways giving the maximum return. I very much doubt if this canal project will take a high priority on this scale. Nevertheless it is always well to be prepared, and far from ruling out the possibility of the building of the proposed canal, I have set up a small group to review this matter department-ally and to make a confidential report to me on the advantages and drawbacks. I have asked a representative of the Admiralty to join this group in order that the strategic considerations may be considered in the light of the latest developments. I am also, of course, consulting the Secretary of State for Scotland, who is the planning Minister concerned. Although I am taking this action, I do not wish to hold out to the noble Lord

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any hope that the result will be any different from the decisions hitherto reached on many occasions. I can say no more than that the possibility is in our minds and we are considering the matter afresh in the way indicated.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord. He has really told me exactly what I wanted to know, and realty has complied with ray request, perhaps anticipating this debate. No doubt this subject was so important in his mind that he thought that an investigation was necessary. I thank him for what he is going to do, and shall look forward to having the opportunity of asking him, if the report is not too secret, what conclusions are arrived at. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

SECRET SESSION.
The Notice on the Paper in the name of the Earl of Mansfield was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied with the defensive fire-power of our heavy bombers; and to move for Papers.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): Strangers will withdraw.
Then, in pursuance of the Resolution that the sitting of the House to consider the Motion of the Earl of Mansfield be in Secret Session, the Official Reporter withdrew.
House in Secret Session.
Sitting resumed in Open Session.

RECONSTRUCTION SCHEMES.
LORD NATHAN LORD NATHAN rose to call the attention, of His Majesty's Government to the importance of the time factor in the preparation of schemes for post-war reconstruction, and to ask whether His Majesty's Government propose to establish a system of priorities in regard to plans for reconstruction; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of the Motion which I bring be-fore your Lordships' House is to draw attention to certain matters of urgency, as I conceive them, which ought to be
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decided while the fight is still on and before the war comes to an end. The immediate cause of my bringing this matter before your Lordships is a recent speech on behalf of the Government by the Minister of Economic Warfare. In that speech he said in almost as many words that it is not possible to make decisions while the war is on. That was a statement which was disconcerting and, indeed, alarming to many of us. Naturally, I wish to be in every way completely fair, so I will ask your Lordships' leave to read one or two passages from the speech of the noble Earl. In order not to weary your Lordships I must indulge in the gentle art of selective quotation, but I hope, and indeed I am sure, that the noble Earl will not complain that in what I quote in order to make my point I am doing him less than justice.
He was speaking in a debate on agriculture on May 27 and making a declaration on behalf of His Majesty's Government. In the course of his speech he made these observations:
"… you cannot draft the policy of one great department of our national economy without reference to issues of basic importance in other great departments of national economy."
I have no adverse comment to make on that. Then the noble Earl went on:
"… the blunt fact is that Cabinet Ministers, when the whole of their energies are devoted to winning the war … simply have not got the time to go into these numerous and immensely complicated questions with the thoroughness and care with which they will have to be gone into one day. The Civil Service and experts can, of course, do preparatory work. An immense amount of preparatory work is going on at the present moment, and has been going on for some time; but there are matters which must come before leading members of the Government in any such considerations of policy, and"—
note these words, my Lords—
"it is physically impossible for them to give the requisite amount of time to these problems at this juncture. Moreover, Cabinet Ministers do not yet know enough of what the conditions of the post-war world are going to be to be able to form a correct judgment on some of the questions which will have to be answered."
Then the noble Earl went on to make quotations from the speeches of Sir John Anderson, Sir Kingsley Wood, Mr. Herbert Morrison, and the Lord Chancellor on the Beveridge Report. He selected for quotation just those passages which had given rise to the greatest indignation and

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the utmost suspicion and hostility. I now quote the noble Earl again:
"I have made those quotations at some length to show that the considerations which forced the Government to adopt that attitude with regard to the Beveridge Report apply equally to agriculture, and indeed to all these very great questions which are awaiting solution after the war and which cannot be considered in isolation and which have to be considered as part of one picture. All that we are saying is that that consideration must necessarily take a considerable amount of time."
Here is the last passage I wish to quote:
"Therefore all that I am saying to your Lordships this afternoon is that our reformers, whether they be reformers in education or in agriculture or in social security or in housing or in planning, must have a measure of patience and confidence in the Government, and may I add they must have mercy on the physical capacity of Ministers?"
The noble Earl will agree that I have fairly represented the point I wish to bring to the notice of the House.
My noble friend Lord Addison, in a speech following the noble Earl, characterized his statement as having indicated that nothing could be decided until everything was decided. Your Lordships have heard the main passages of the speech out of which the criticism arises. I do not think anyone would question that that speech, and those quotations, indicated to your Lordships and to the country that the experts are indeed gathering data and preparing memoranda, but Ministers have no time, in the pressure of war work, to take decisions. Of course Ministers are busy, of course there is a strain upon their energies and time. No doubt it would be a very good thing if every issue but war-making could be set on one side, but it cannot; that will not do. Perhaps the noble Earl did not really mean what his speech appeared to mean. Here is his chance to say so.
Let me indicate to your Lordships some of the matters which, as it seems to me, need and must have decision whilst the fighting is on, before the war ends. First, there are the urgent and inescapable problems of what may be called, in general terms—because I mean more than the mere coming back of the members of the Armed Forces—demobilization. There is a bare minimum of decisions that must be made, certain steps which must necessarily be taken; these are short-term, immediate, urgent. These are matters
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that must be decided before the fighting stops, however busy Ministers may be now. What are these matters? Let me just indicate them in headlines. There is demobilization proper. That means the release of men from factory or war service. There is the reassembly, rehousing, re-equipment of war-scattered families. There is the question of homes for those who come home or go to peacetime work. We shall need every expedient, temporary and permanent, to deal with the inevitable overcrowding. There is the question of equipment for industry as remobilization starts, and there is a priority order that must be decided, as the noble Earl, Lord Elgin, said in another context earlier this afternoon. What in effect I am referring to is the orderly change-over: the release of men and machines according to set, known and accepted principles, the re-engagement of men and machines for peace work in order of need, the building of essential living places and work places.
So much for the short-term problem, but there are the longer-term problems of reconstruction or remobilization as distinct from demobilization. There is an essential minimum of decision that must be made in these broader matters also and made now, immediately, before peace breaks out. Let me indicate in outline what some of these matters are. Let me put first agriculture, for it is out of that subject that this discussion arises. It was in a debate on agriculture that the noble Earl made the speech to which I have referred. Take agriculture then. After all, on the farming policy and programme made now or not made now depends the diet and the standard of living of our people for a very long time to come. Is it to be self-sufficiency on the war model or is it to be specialization on world co-operation on the Hot Springs model? This is a decision that has to be made now. Lord Woolton has welcomed Hot Springs and recognized the obligations to act. As recently as May 27 the noble Earl stated that the Government had not made a decision and could not at that time, for the reasons I indicated, make a decision on agricultural policy. But does Lord Woolton's statement in this House the other day in the Hot Springs debate mean that Mr. Hudson has now had time to make a decision? And if he has, what is the decision? Let us know it, for if we start on the wrong foot

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we can never get right. We must start as we mean to go on. We would like to know how it is intended we should start.
Close to farming is of course the land. There can be no conscious direction of the nation's resources unless there is positive and effective control of the use of land. If post-war building and postwar re-equipment of industry and transport begin without a decision as to this there will be no plan. If we start on the wrong foot we can never get right. We must start as we mean to go on. We want, then, three decisions. Is the Barlow proposal for a plan to prevent the wrong use of land, the wrong allocation of industry and the consequent congestion of cities to be acted upon? Is the Scott proposal for the protection of agricultural land to be acted upon? Is the Uthwatt proposal for solving the compensation problem to be accepted and applied? Barlow, Scott and Uthwatt are there. The work has been done. I ask, what about it? I must ask, what about it? If there are no decisions there will be no policy and remobilization will be as haphazard, as chaotic, as disastrous and as blighting as it was last time. We must make up our minds before we start.
Then there is the whole broad issue of social security. There again the work has been done. Beveridge is far better known than Barlow, Uthwatt and Scott. The Beveridge Report has two main aspects; first, the plan for social security for the prevention of want by guaranteeing a subsistence income for every family against every contingency. Here, my Lords, there is a decision. It has been turned down for the moment. The Government have said No. I do not want to elaborate it but the noble Lord will realize that what I said is that the Government have taken a decision in the negative as to a subsistence income. That is of course the case. But there is another aspect of Beveridge, a series of proposals to reform particular social services, health insurance, workmen's compensation, pensions, unemployment insurance, and Beveridge would add new ones, children's allowances, maternity benefit, training benefit, medical services. The Government say they have accepted most of these. Some of the reforms have been overdue for a generation. The Prime Minister has said that the work is
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in progress, but now we are told. "No decisions whilst the war is on."
To me at least, and to my noble friends, that is a frightening prospect. Is it really intended that the men who come back from the wars are to come back to the old inadequate cash benefits, the old insufficient treatment benefits, the old extravagant administration? That is what there will be for them if decisions are not made and action taken before they come back. What about their houses, their homes? Here there is indeed a plan, a ten-year plan, to employ 1,250,000 workers and erect 4,000.000 homes, Excellent. I congratulate both Mr. Ernest Brown and Mr. Ernest Bevin. But there is more to it than that. What sort of houses, what is to be the cost of the houses, how are the houses to be furnished, by whom built? The building will start at once when the men begin to come home because some kind of shelter will be an imperative and urgent need, but unless other decisions are made and unless steps are taken what is done will be as costly, as ineffective and as chaotic in meeting real needs as it was last time. We must start as we mean to go on and so we want before the peace not only Barlow, Scott and Uthwatt but a decision about housing finance, building organization, administration and costs. We must start right or we shall never get right at all. What about the men's children? Where is the Education Bill? What kind of schools are they going to have a chance of going to and for how long? What kind of teachers? What about school buildings and equipment? These are things that must be decided before the evacuees and their fathers come home. What has been done to work out the intention to bring about full employment?
It is said that no decision can be taken because there is no time for decision. Does this really mean that all of them— agricultural plan, social security, housing, full employment, civil aviation—must all go by default? Does it mean that the technique of maintaining the nation's consumption and its investment, public and private, in order to provide ample and lasting work for our people must on no account take up a Minister's time, that Ministers are too busy? Surely not. Surely preparations are being made. Why then this timid refusal, this coy denial?

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Some preparations, as I say, are being made. The Prime Minister has said so. Lord Selborne has said so. But we want more than that. Decisions must be made. These really are matters of urgency. We really must start the moment peace breaks out as we mean to go on, which means that we must make up our minds before we start.
As I have already said, these are remobilization as distinct from demobilization problems. The remobilization long-term policy will be decisive for our future, but remobilization and demobilization are not really always quite separable. The siting of new houses and factories, for instance, will depend on or will itself determine by default long-term decisions about the location of industry and the growth of cities. Decisions taken now on these matters are an essential part of the long-term background to the short-term policy. Remobilization of men and businesses and re-equipment of factories must depend upon the policy that is to be adopted in the longer term for full employment at home and commercial relations with foreign countries and with the countries of the Empire and Commonwealth. The short-term expedients of the Armistice must take their colour from the longer-term intentions; indeed, there is good ground for saying that if the short-time expedients are out of step with the longer-term intentions, the longer-term intentions will never be realized. The fact of the matter is that the fate of reconstruction will be largely determined by the character of the demobilization that is carried through on the cessation of the fighting and in the period that immediately follows upon that.
There are certain matters, then, which, whether we like it or not, must be decided before the fighting stops. To decide nothing beforehand on these questions will be tantamount to deciding badly. To have no policy before the fighting ends will be tantamount to having the wrong policy. I have indicated some of the questions which must in my opinion be answered now—not only dealt with by careful and expert preparation, but answered now by decisions on policy at Cabinet level which will produce a programme of action ready to apply the moment the fighting stops.
Finally, my Lords, I would say this. The situation in the period immediately before the peace is the same as the situation in the years immediately before the war. Then there was much preparation, but no preparedness. That was the difference, or one of the differences, between Mr. Chamberlain and Mr. Churchill. Now again there are preparations but no proof of preparedness, and the tasks of peace are not likely to be less than those of the war. Time is no more on our side in matters of demobilization and remobilization than it was in the whole grim business of mobilization for battle. I hope there may be some reassurance to our anxiety from the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, and I urge upon His Majesty's Government that we should be prepared, and by prepared I mean prepared by decisions made, by policies laid down, by programmes in train. Preparation is not enough; what is needed is preparedness. I beg to move.
THE EARL OF GLASGOW: My Lords, I will not keep your Lordships more than five minutes. I am very much in agreement with a large part of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, but not altogether. I am as anxious as anyone else to see reconstruction started after the war as soon as possible. I want to see at least four million houses built, a large increase in the Exchequer grant for education, the progressive measures of the Beveridge Report coming into effect, and also town and country planning carried out to the greatest extent. I should like to see all these things done in due course, but where is the money coming from to carry them out immediately after the war? Enterprising individuals, men like Lord Nuffield, who would like to use their brains and their energies to produce the necessary merchandise and goods wanted by foreign countries, are being crushed by taxation. After the war this country will live or die by her export trade and at this time, when the call should be for all hands to pull together, it is looked on as heresy to challenge the notion of some politicians that private enterprise must go and be replaced by State-managed businesses.
I think the noble Lord's question is so important that it is a great pity it should be relegated to the end of a rather busy sitting. I cannot understand why there should be such a small attendance when

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we are discussing this very important point. The second part of the question, which refers to priority, is interesting because it is evident the noble Lord himself does not believe it will be possible to build houses, improve our education and bring in the Beveridge recommendations all at the same time. In my opinion, with the exception of housing and the reconstruction of armament factories for peace-time needs—which should have priority—all those other measures should be postponed until the country is on a firm financial basis.
People who say that these big social improvements should be made immediately after the war at a cost of one month's war expenditure, do not realize the true position. We hear it said very often, and of course it is very hard to counter when we are spending millions of money on war. But people who say that do not realize that directly the war ceases, the whole financial outlook of the world, including exchange and credit, will change. If this country continued to carry on a war expenditure in peace time, she would be considered to be heading straight for bankruptcy and our credit in the countries with which we do business would dry up. It cannot be said too often that we live by our export trade. The more commitments and promises the Government make now which will mean the expenditure of vast sums of money after the war, the less chance shall we have of regaining our export trade and giving employment to our returned soldiers. We shall have to ease the burden of taxation to give a chance for private enterprise to get going.
I do not want to break the Party truce, but if the Socialist Party obtain power—and they have said they propose to do so—and take over all industrial undertakings, they are going to kill individual enterprise, and the source from which the golden eggs have come will be destroyed. Are they quite sure that what they propose to put in the place of incentive and endeavour will work? In my opinion to change over from the free system of individual enterprise and initiative in industry to a Socialist dictatorship in the management of the business of the nation—because to function properly it will have to be a dictatorship —would be a mad risk which it would be folly for the Government of a warworn and exhausted country to take.
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So-called capitalism has given this country the finest social service in the world, and, whatever may be the faults of that system better the devil we know than the devil we do not know. The first thing in post-war reconstruction that we have to think of, in my opinion, is to give our people employment and to get back the export trade by which we live. And of course we must have housing. To get that it will be necessary to give every assistance possible to firms formerly employed in producing goods for export, in their tasks of changing over from war to peace, and, over and above that, to encourage the siting and setting up of new industries all over the country. I would give that and the provision of houses for the people priority over everything else.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: My Lords, arising out of some remarks which were made by my noble friend Lord Selborne in the debate on the 27th May last on the subject of agriculture, the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, has put upon the Paper a Motion which is apparently very anodyne in character He has asked "whether His Majesty's Government propose to establish a system of priorities in regard to plans for reconstruction." Now if the noble Lord's purpose had been merely to seek information, to find out whether there was any further statement which the Government could make upon post-war planning, I do not think that anyone could possibly have complained. As the war progresses it is, obviously, natural that noble Lords, as other Englishmen, Scotsmen and Welshmen, should look into the future, and should wish to know how the minds of the Government are moving. But unfortunately and, if he will forgive me for saying so, I think rather unjustifiably, in the speech with which he has introduced his Motion the noble Lord has gone a good deal further than that. He has suggested—I think it was implicit in his speech, which conveyed the impression to me at any rate as I think it will have done to other noble Lords—that His Majesty's Government are, in fact, at the present time, failing in their duty in that they are neglecting, if not their consideration, at any rate conclusions upon essential problems, and failing to reach decisions which could, in the view of the noble Lord himself, easily be taken.

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Such suggestions are not in accordance with the facts, and I feel that they are extremely regrettable because they are liable to shake confidence in an Administration which is composed of all the leading elements of all sections of opinion, including leaders of the noble Lord's own Party—an Administration which is extended to the utmost in facing problems with regard to both the present and the future which are unparalleled in history. I do not think that the British people take so poor a view of His Majesty's Government as does the noble Lord. They realize that the Government have done, and are doing, a good job; that they have mobilized the nation as it has never been mobilized before; that they have ensured, in spite of immense difficulties, that the troops abroad should be provided with munitions of war to enable them to march forward to that victory news of which is daily coming in. Further, they have ensured that the people at home are provided with food and clothing and necessities, and, so far as possible, the amenities of life in difficult times like these. Foreigners who come here—and in this I think I am only echoing what would be said by other noble Lords—go away full of admiration for the even-handed and efficient administration of this country at the present time. I really cannot understand why Lord Nathan should assume that the Government are not facing the problems of the future in that same spirit, and are not applying their full energies to the solution of the post-war problems which are coming upon the world.
The noble Lord spoke in very mellifluous tones, but I do not think that his outlook was the statesmanlike outlook to which we are accustomed in this House. I would remind him of some words which were spoken by the Prime Minister in his broadcast last March. My right honourable friend said:
"Nothing would be easier for me than to make any number of promises and to get the immediate response of cheap cheers and glowing leading articles."
That is exactly what the noble Lord is asking me to do to-day. But I would remind him of some further words spoken by my right honourable friend in the same broadcast. He said:
"I am absolutely determined not to falsify or mock that confidence"—
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that is the confidence accorded to him by the nation—
"by making promises without regard to whether they can be performed or not."
That, my Lords, is surely right. Nothing could be more fatal than for His Majesty's Government to paint too rosy a view of our difficulties in order to get a little temporary popularity. There is only one thing to do in dealing with the British people, as the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, would I am sure agree, and that is to tell them the truth, whatever the truth may be. It is only so that any Government will ever get their trust and confidence.
I hope the House will forgive me for speaking with some little warmth, but I feel very strongly on this question. Of course His Majesty's Government accept full responsibility for making all possible arrangements to ensure the future of the ordinary Englishman, that man whom the noble Lord has rechristened "Tom Snooks," whom some other people call, rather offensively I consider, "the Common Man," but whom I and I think most people prefer to call by his old and truer name, "John Bull." But noble Lords in this House have a responsibility too— it is not only the Government that have a responsibility. It will not assist, in my view, the survival of democracy if legislators understate the complexity of the matters with which we are likely to be faced, and give the impression to the electorate that it is quite simple to reach ideal solutions of the terrible problems with which we shall have to deal when hostilities come to an end. I am always full of admiration for my noble friend Lord Addison in that respect. He never attempts to ignore the complexity of these problems, and he faces them frankly and fairly. I would suggest that my noble friend Lord Nathan might well take a lesson from his Leader's book.
The noble Lord enumerated a large number of questions which he suggests are not being energetically tackled. In fact all these questions are being intensively studied, not only by civil servants and experts, but by Committees and Ministers. My noble friend Lord Selborne will bear me out when I say that as much of the time of many responsible Ministers is being taken up by the consideration of problems of demobilization and the postwar problems as is taken up by consideration of problems relating to the conduct

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of the war. These Ministers sit on these Committees for many hours a weak. They consider these problems day and night. But I certainly would not claim, and I do not intend to do so, that these Ministers, or the Government as a whole, are yet in a position to ask Parliament to decide on detailed schemes on all these questions. Indeed, they are not themselves yet in a position to come to decisions on all of them.
Some problems, of course, are comparatively simple; they are what may be called self-contained problems—problems such as that of education, although even that overlaps on to other domestic issues, as noble Lords know. Others are more difficult, and have immense ramifications, both national and international. Of such a type, I suggest, is the problem of agriculture, out of which this debate arises. That has vast international implications, which have been emphasized on many occasions in your Lordships' House by the noble Lords, Lord Addison, Lord De La Warr and others. To attempt to deal with agriculture in isolation would be utterly futile and greatly to be regretted. As the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, said in the debate to which Lord Nathan has referred, Cabinet Ministers do not yet know enough of what the conditions of 1he post-war world are going to be to be able to form a correct judgment on some of the questions which will have to be answered. That is perfectly true; we are not in a position at present to answer a great many of these questions.
It is no use the noble Lord chanting "We must have a decision now." In many of these cases, in the nature of things there cannot be a decision now; these questions need patient and careful study. The Government have to take account of developments in other countries than our own. These questions must be linked op with a constantly changing war situation, and any solution must be applicable to a post-war situation the exact character of which we do not yet know. The task of allotting priorities as between these various schemes of reconstruction is equally complex. It must take into account the importance of avoiding hardship during the demobilization period; it must take into account the essential need of re-creating normal trade and employment; and it must take into account the practical possibilities of our economic and financial position, to which
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the noble Earl, Lord Glasgow, so rightly drew attention. These factors are often conflicting in their nature, and they are not easy to harmonize. What is essential —and I am in absolute agreement with Lord Nathan about this—is that preliminary preparatory work should be undertaken; and that in fact is being done.
I am very grateful to the noble Lord for letting me know some of the special points which he intended to raise, and I have tried to get as much information for him as possible, although I know he will not expect an answer on all the points I am in a position, however, to give him a considerable amount of information. Let me take agriculture first of all. I do not intend to go fully into this question this afternoon, because the subject has been recently discussed here, but I should like to say something about one decision which the noble Lord said ought to be made now. "Is British policy," I understood the noble Lord to ask, "to aim at self-sufficiency on the war model, or at world co-operation as advocated by the Hot Springs Conference?" In the first place, this statement as it stands seems to be based upon a misinterpretation of the recommendations of the United Nations Conference on Food and Agriculture as laid down in the Final Act. No one has suggested that this country should be self-sufficient, but the Hot Springs Conference, although it advocated world co-operation, specifically rejected specialization in agricultural production. If the noble Lord will refer to Resolution XV of the Final Act of this Conference, which deals with the principle of agricultural production, he will see that it specifically states that the principles of good farming "can best be assured by balanced mixed rotational farming and by avoidance of single-crop production, or monoculture."
Having made that quite clear, let us see how far the facts support Lord Nathan's argument that a decision is required now, in case the war should be brought to an end in the near future. One fact that stands out quite clearly is that whenever the war in Europe ends, be it this year, next year or the year following, food production in this country will have to be maintained as far as possible at the present high level for some time to come. My right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture dealt with this point in a recent speech, when he said:

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"Even if victory in Europe comes before 1947, the demands for food from our own soil will not abate. Ships will still be needed for other vital purposes. The Japs must still be beaten. The starving peoples of Europe must be fed. Far from there being an easing off, the shoe may pinch even tighter. Whatever fate may have in store for us in the more distant future, the outlook in the next four years is, to my mind, tolerably certain. We must go on producing as much food as we can from our own soil."
That is what my right honourable friend said, and he went on to say that he was laying his plans for four years ahead, up to the harvest of 1947.
The Hot Springs Conference also recognized the distinction between the shortterm and the long-term periods. The general shortage of food in the world was very much in their minds, and, as a first step in overcoming that shortage, they recommended that countries that are now producing more than the normal quantity of food should maintain such production, if not increase it still further, in the short-term period. Questions of long-term policy and of transition from the short-term to the long-term programme were also considered by the Conference, but those are matters which will arise later on. The important thing is that for the short-term period—and the Minister of Agriculture has put this period as running until 1947 at the earliest—plans can be laid and are being laid, and no further major decisions of policy arc immediately necessary, although clearly the formulation of long-term policy must continue, and is indeed at present going on.
Then I come to the question of Planning—the Barlow Report, the Scott Report, the Uthwatt Report and so on. With regard to town and country planning, certain decisions, as your Lordships know, have already been taken, and I hope that noble Lords will not forget them. First of all, last winter His Majesty's Government decided to set up a Ministry of Town and Country Planning, and the Minister is already at work at his extremely complex, difficult, and I think rather thankless task. That decision which the Government took at that time marked the Government's agreement in principle to setting up a central body and planning the use of land throughout the country, and it provided machinery for controlling the use of land in accordance with future policy. Secondly, only the
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other day, as noble Lords will remember, the Government decided to introduce the Town and Country Planning (Interim Development) Bill, which passed through your Lordships' House. The purpose of this Bill, as your Lordships know, was to give the powers which are necessary to enable the new Minister and the local planning authorities to fulfil their duties, and, when it becomes law, the essential framework for future planning policy will, I think, have been set up. Those were two essential and fundamental decisions on which future post-war planning policy must rest.
I will add that the location of industry, which was the subject of the Barlow Report, raises issues of policy which are under consideration by a Committee of Ministers over which the Minister without Portfolio presides. It will be apparent that considerable further investigation is necessary, especially in the light of changed war conditions, to continue the analysis presented by the Royal Commission and to frame concrete proposals to implement their recommendations. On the physical side, preliminary work is necessary for the preparation of plans for the redevelopment of areas of excessive urban concentration and congestion. Such work is proceeding in the Ministry of Town and Country Planning, the Board of Trade and the other Departments concerned.
As regards the protection of agricultural land, the importance of preserving land of high agricultural value is now well recognized, and machinery for securing its protection within the framework of the Government statement of February 11, 1942, has been erected. The Government then said that they would seek to avoid a diversion of productive agricultural land to other purposes if there is unproductive or less productive land which could reasonably be used for those purposes. As regards Compensation—that is the Uthwatt Report, to which the noble Lord also referred—I would assure the House that the Government have never failed to recognize the importance of the question, nor acted on the supposition that a decision upon the policy involved could be postponed for post-war consideration. They have on the contrary been devoting continuous and concentrated attention to it. The future arrangements to be made to secure that land can be acquired without reference to other considerations than

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the dictates of national and local planning policy raise issues of extreme complexity, and affect, directly or indirectly, every man, woman and child in the country. It is essential that the right decision should be taken; and the Government are handling the problem with a full sense of that responsibility.
Next we pass to Social Security—the Beveridge Report—to which the noble Lord also referred. He gave an impression, I think—certainly to me, and I think to other noble Lords—that the attitude of the Government to the Beveridge Report was negative. I do not know where he got that impression; he certainly has not got it from the speeches of the Government spokesmen. I do not want to prolong indefinitely the speech I have to make, but I must remind the noble Lord of a few brief words which were said by the Home Secretary in the debate in another place. He said:
"Sir William Beveridge summed up his proposals in 23 suggested changes.… it can be stated that one non-essential change is rejected, six held up for final judgment and 16 are accepted in principle. There were six fundamental principles in the Beveridge Report on which the plan itself is based …. The Government have accepted the whole substance of these, save for one point, the subsistence basis, and while not accepting this in principle, the Government have intimated their aim to fix a benefit for unemployment and ill-health on the same basis as nearly as possible."
That was not the impression the noble Lord made in his remarks.
LORD NATHAN: I am extremely unwilling to interrupt the noble Viscount, but these words were what I said. I said that the Beveridge Report includes a "plan for social security for the prevention of want by guaranteeing a subsistence income for every family against every contingency." And I went on to say that "here there is a decision. It has been turned down for the moment." My noble friend, the Leader of the House, has in turn confirmed what I then said. I went no further than to make that statement about their proposals as regards social reform.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: I wish the noble Lord had gone a little further, because, if he had gone on and quoted the words of the Home Secretary which I have just quoted—
"and while not accepting this in principle, the Government have intimated their aim to
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fix a benefit for unemployment and ill-health on the same basis as nearly as possible"—
he would then have made the position clear. He gave me the impression that the whole thing had been completely turned down. It is true that that particular proposal had been turned down, but the Government were hoping to put forward an alternative proposal which would have produced the same effect.
LORD NATHAN: I do not want to prolong the discussion of the point. But this question of subsistence income or no subsistence income is really the central point of the Beveridge Plan, and my view—and I speak not for myself only, but I think for my noble friends also— is that when the subsistence income is rejected, the central feature in this regard of the Beveridge Plan is also rejected.
VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: Well, that is a matter of opinion, upon which we both have a right to our own views. It is true, of course, that practical possibilities have still to be considered, and it is also true that detailed proposals have still to be worked out. They are in fact being worked on now. It is true also that financial aspects must be examined, and I am quite certain the noble Lord would not dispute that, for obviously any Government with a sense of responsibility must go into details and must examine the financial aspect. But I certainly would not accept the view that the attitude of the Government to the Beveridge Report has been a negative one.
I come to housing next. The noble Lord has said that he welcomes the decision of His Majesty's Government—I was glad to hear that—to embark on a ten-year programme, which is to employ one and a quarter million workers on the building of four million houses. But he suggests—anyway he suggested to me— that no real detailed work was being done —or he did not know that any detailed work was being done. Well, at any rate, for all that, detailed work is being done; a great deal of detailed work is being done. Indeed, I have here a very full account of what is being engaged in by the Government at the present time. I rather hesitate to inflict anything further on the House, but I should just like to give some indications at least of the sort of steps that are being taken, because as these suggestions have been made, I think

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it is only fair to the Government that they should be answered. The Ministry of Health has, in fact, done far more than estimate, as between three and four million, the housing needs for the first ten or twelve years of the peace. First of all, they have submitted detailed estimates of the labour and materials needed for the repair of the war damage, for overtaking arrears of work of ordinary maintenance and repair, and for the new building programme, including the rebuilding of houses destroyed by enemy action. On the basis of these estimates and those of other Departments, the Government will decide what is the number of new houses that can be built in the earlier years of peace.
Secondly, without waiting for a decision on the Barlow, Uthwatt and Scott Reports, the Minister of Health sent a circular to local authorities in March last in which he suggested that there were, in each local government area, sites which, whatever the future local or national plan, are bound to be suitable housing sites. He asked them to decide, in conjunction with the Regional Planning Officer and, where agricultural land is involved, with representatives of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, on sufficient of such sites for a one-year programme. He informed them, with the ready approval, I am glad to be able to tell your Lordships, of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he was able to sanction the raising of loans for the purpose, and he indicated his willingness to entertain compulsory purchase orders. Further, he requested the authorities to begin immediately after the selection of the sites on the preliminary work of surveying and of preparing the general lay-out, so that it can be further filled in when the manual of post-war house plans and design is issued. He emphasized that local authorities must be ready to go ahead with a substantial programme immediately conditions permit. Up-to-date, replies from 586 local authorities, whose proposals relate to the provision of nearly 130,000 houses, have already been received.
In addition to that, several Committees are hard at work. I do not intend to go fully into their labours, but I would say quite briefly this. There is a Dwellings Design Committee sitting under the noble Earl, Lord Dudley. Their report is expected
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in the autumn and will cover cottages and flats, not only for ordinary family occupation, but for occupation by special classes, such as old people and single women. Then there is a Rural Housing Committee under Sir Arthur Hobhouse. Then there is a Committee under Sir Felix Pole, which is considering the part which private enterprise can best play after the war. And, finally, there is the Committee under Mr. Silkin, M.P., which is considering policy as regards temporary construction. All these Committees are working in close touch with study groups of the Ministry of Works. There is, finally, the Inter-Departmental Committee under Sir George Burt which has reviewed the various methods of building during the inter-war period and is considering any proposals for new methods that may be suggested.
The Government are fully aware of one problem to which the noble Lord devoted special attention, and that is the dangers and difficulties of the immediate post-war period. Obviously it will be extremely difficult to make available an adequate number of houses immediately after the war. It is inevitable for some considerable time that there will be a shortage of labour and a shortage of materials, and I am afraid I must say quite frankly I do not think there is likely to be any complete solution of this difficulty. There is bound to be a gap, but at any rate the Ministers and the Departments concerned are studying urgently any and every means of bridging that gap as rapidly as can be done. If the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, or any other noble Lord, has in mind any speedy method of doing this, the Burt Committee will be ready and anxious to consider it. If they report that such a plan is worth while, I can assure the noble Lord no one will be better pleased than His Majesty's Government.
There is one other subject on which I shall say one word—it will be very brief —and that is Education. I got the impression that the noble Lord considered nothing adequate was being done in that respect. Perhaps he did not intend to give that impression, but it would be a particularly unfair charge because my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Education has been working for months with assiduity and devotion, and it will be generally agreed with very remarkable success, on the future

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problems of education. I do not think the Government can be accused of dilatoriness or indecision where education is concerned. In fact, plans for the reconstruction of the educational system are now ready. I will, if your Lordships will allow me, refrain from saying any more to-day because the House will be aware, or at any rate will be glad to hear, that my right honorable friend the President of the Board of Education will be making an announcement about the Government's proposals in another place at, I hope, a very early date.
That is the present position in all these matters to which I have referred so far as it is possible to give it up to date. I apologize most sincerely for taking up so much of your Lordships' time, but I thought it was only fair, in view of what has been said by Lord Nathan, that the House should have the fullest possible information so that it should know that the Government are not quite so supine or so lazy as he appeared to suggest. In point of fact, an immense amount of work is being put in both by Ministers and Departments and, as noble Lords will I hope have seen from my account, good, sure foundations are being laid to the Prime Minister's Four-Year Plan. That work will continue methodically and conscientiously. In due course, as and when possible, plans will be introduced for the approval of Parliament.
In the meantime I would recall to the House the closing words of the Prime Minister's broadcast on March 21. This is what he said:
"Let us get back to our job. I must warn everyone who hears me of a certain unseemliness and also of the danger of it appearing to the world that we here in Britain are diverting our attention to peace, which is still remote, and to the fruits of victory, which are still to be won, while our Russian Allies are fighting for dear life and dearer honour in the dire, deadly, daily struggle against all the might of the German military machine, and while our thoughts should be with our Armies and with our American and French comrades now engaged in decisive battle in Tunisia."
It is Sicily now! We have moved on since then! The Prime Minister ended with these words:
"Let us wish them Godspeed in their struggle, and let us bend all our efforts to the war and to the ever more vigorous prosecution of our supreme task."
That, I believe, if the noble Lord will allow me once more to borrow a phrase from him, is what Snooks really wants.
LORD NATHAN: My Lords, I am sorry this discussion should have taken place with so few to hear what has been said, especially what has been said by the noble Viscount. I know that part of the reason is that another meeting is taking place of some interest and importance at which doubtless both the noble Viscount and I should have wished to be present. Had it not been that our Order Paper is so full for some weeks to come—another indication of the useful public purpose served by the labours of your Lordships' House—I should have wished to postpone this Motion because, despite the way in which, at the beginning of his speech, the noble Viscount was inclined to describe it, this is not a trifling subject nor was it in any spirit: of trifling that I raised it. On the contrary, as the noble Viscount's speech showed, the further it proceeded, it is a subject of great moment, and I consider myself fortunate in having been able to place before the noble Viscount questions which elucidated matters which required elucidation and which it is useful, in the public interest, should be elucidated.
In the early part of his speech the noble Viscount was rather inclined to adopt the well-known habit of certain attorneys— that is, to abuse the opponent's attorney. I have made no attack, and I particularly refrained from making any attack, upon the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, out of whose speech this discussion immediately arose. I felt sure that the impression given by the noble Earl in that speech did not faithfully reflect what, in fact, he had intended to say. My questions to-day were directed to clarifying the position, not to making an attack upon the noble Earl or making any criticism of the Government. I was speaking in a spirit of interrogation and with a view to clearing up any misunderstanding that might have arisen, as indeed had arisen, from the speech to which I have referred.
The noble Viscount mentioned that I indicated to him, in advance, some of the points which I proposed to mention. Let me say at once that I intended, as I hope I made clear in my opening observations, to mention these various matters as indications of the subjects upon which it seemed to me decisions were, or would become, urgently necessary. I had not intended to put upon the noble Viscount the labour of inquiring into and giving your Lordships, at this stage, information

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falling under each of the headings of the matters to which I referred. But I am grateful to him, and I am sure your Lordships will be grateful, that in the course of one speech he was able to give to the House shortly, yet comprehensively, information which I myself found reassuring and which I am sure will be found reassuring by those who will read what he has said. Indeed the speech that he has made is the justification of the Motion which I placed on the Order Paper and, despite what the noble Viscount said, I submit it is the justification also of the content and manner in which it has been placed before your Lordships' House.
It is no part of my desire to arouse heated controversy but to get, as I think to a large extent we have got, straight answers to specific questions. I am delighted to know that in so many respects the noble Viscount is able to give us so satisfactory a report. I could wish that the information had perhaps been given earlier. Anyhow, we have had it now. We shall look forward to the White Paper which I understand is shortly to be issued with regard to the Education Bill. Whatever the contents of that White Paper may be they will of course have to be most carefully considered and discussed. It is another evidence that a certain stage has been reached in an important piece of work and so far so good. I am not going to traverse the various other headings to which both I and the noble Viscount in his reply have referred. On the whole I think it may fairly be said that there is evidence of real progress being made. That is all I wished to elicit by this debate and to disabuse the public mind from any misunderstanding which it might have, and indeed did have, as a result of the noble Earl's speech as to Ministers having no time to deal with these matters.
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Some of them fall within a sphere which cannot be decided without reference to outside affairs. That we all realize. Others fall within a more restricted and domestic sphere and they can be settled by themselves. But my chief interest in these days is he to whom the noble Viscount has referred in all his aspects and relationships. My chief interest is in Tom Snooks at home and at war and I would close on the note upon which the noble Viscount closed. We are all thinking of the valour and, as we confidently hope and believe, the successful outcome of the magnificent exertions of our Armies together with the Dominion and Allied troops in Sicily. Upon them our thoughts and hopes are concentrated. But when the noble Viscount closed with the moving statement of the Prime Minister, to which I would without reservation subscribe, it should be recognized that the situation which will arise immediately the fighting ends is from some standpoints no less part of the war, and in particular from the standpoint of Tom Snooks is scarcely less part of the war, than the actual fighting itself. I make no apologies for having brought this matter before your Lordships' House. I would always give great weight and attach importance to anything the noble Viscount may say as to the manner in which I may bring a matter before your Lordships' House, but having heard his speech and having reflected upon what he said I feel that I have nothing to apologize for to your Lordships' House. I feel that no member of your Lordships' House need apologize if he brings forward a matter in good faith and with the single-minded desire to serve the public interest. I beg leave to withdraw.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned.