Sitting of 9 February 1943

Preamble
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

DEATH OF A MEMBER
Mr. SPEAKER made the following communication to the House:
I regret to have to inform the House of the death of Richard John Russell, Esquire, Member for the County of Chester (Eddisbury Division), and I desire, on behalf of the House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy, with the relatives of the hon. Member.

PRIVATE BUSINESS
  BRIDGWATER GAS BILL
  Read a Second time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
  COLNE VALLEY WATER BILL
  To be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day.
  NORTHAMPTON CORPORATION BILL
  Read a Second Time, and committed.
  SUNDERLAND CORPORATION BILL
  Read a Second Time, and committed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR
  Major-General Sir Alfred Knoxasked the Secretary of State for War for what reason the Red Cross now inform relatives that there would be a delay of one month in the issue of labels to enable those relatives to send personal parcels to prisoners of war?
  The Secretary of State for War (Sir James Grigg): The necessary labels, instructions and clothing coupons are despatched to the next-of-kin of a prisoner of war as soon as possible after his camp address is received by the Red
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  Cross. This involves a considerable amount of clerical work which takes on the average between 10 days and a fortnight. When dealing with an exceptionally large number of prisoners this work takes longer and at times last autumn it took as long as a month. I understand, however, that the position is now normal.
  Sir A. Knox: Does my right hon. Friend know that as late as the end of last month the Red Cross said it would take at least a month, owing to pressure of work, to supply these labels to relatives? Is it not possible for the Red Cross to obtain voluntary labour to do simple clerical work?
  Sir J. Grigg: I am aware of what happened, but the facts are, on inquiry, as stated in my answer.

  BRITISH ARMY

    Empire Booklet
    Sir Robert Rankinasked the Secretary of State for War whether the booklet on the Empire, which is forming part of the study scheme for the Army during the present winter, has now been issued to all units of the Army?
    Sir J. Grigg: The distribution of this booklet to the Army at home under the Winter Education Scheme was made at the end of December.
    Major Lyons: In view of the very excellent material in these and other booklets of a similar type, will my right hon. Friend consider taking off the very highly secret marking on them so that they can be discussed or distributed or shown elsewhere?
    Sir J. Grigg: I have considered that, and I have decided to make no change. I think it is very desirable that this should be discussed in the Army with great freedom and without regard to its possible repercussions outside.
    Major Lyons: Will books of this nature in future have no such confidential marking on them?
    Sir J. Grigg: They will have the same marking on them as before.
    Mr. John Dugdale: May a copy be placed in the House?
    Sir J. Grigg: I will consider that.

    Invasion Warning
    Mr. Stokesasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider making arrangements for invasion warning in all areas similar to those made in areas where there are no church bells and so restore the bells for the service for which they were intended?
    Sir J. Grigg: No, Sir. I know of no alternative to church bells which could be used satisfactorily throughout the country.
    Mr. Stokes: As there are already many cases where church bells are not available, what is the difficulty in making similar arrangements for the whole of the country?
    Sir J. Grigg: There is no arrangement as satisfactory as church bells for those areas in which they are available.
    Mr. Driberg: Do the Regional Commissioners consider the present arrangement satisfactory?
    Sir J. Grigg: I do not know the views of the Regional Commissioners, but I know the views of the Minister of Home Security.

    Casualties (Unofficial Telegrams)
    Mr. Astorasked the Secretary of State for War whether there still exists a censorship ban which prevents brother officers and men or civilians from telegraphing to relatives of officers and men who have been killed, wounded or captured; and, if so, whether he will consider its immediate removal?
    Sir J. Gri Grigg: The military authorities in the Middle East found it necessary to prevent messages of this kind being sent by telegraph, not only to relieve the pressure on the channels of communication, but also to prevent unofficial messages about unverified casualties reaching relatives in this country before they had received an official notification. This arrangement prevents much avoidable distress and uncertainty, and I am not prepared to alter it.
    Mr. Astor: Is my right hon. Friend not aware that a personal message from friends of officers means much more to the family than the somewhat formal notification from the War Office? Will he not consider whether something might not be done?
    Sir J. Grigggg: I have experience in my own family of confusion and distress caused by messages of this sort. I am quite clear that the procedure stated in my answer, to which I propose to adhere, is right.

    Pre-natal Allowance (Midwives' Certificates)
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will authorise paymasters to accept a midwife's certificate for issue of pre-natal allowances to expectant mothers where there is difficulty in obtaining a doctor's certificate?
    Sir J. Grigg: Regimental paymasters were authorized on 23rd January to accept the certificate of a State certified midwife for the purpose of a claim to pre-natal allowance, and they have been amending the copies of the application form supplied by them accordingly. New forms should be available in all post offices to-morrow.

    Overseas Service (Recruits' Training)
    Mr. Fosterasked the Secretary of State for War the minimum time for the training of a new recruit to the Armed Forces before being drafted overseas to take part in military operations?
    Sir J. Grigg: A soldier is not sent overseas until it is considered that he can perform the duties expected of him. As my hon. Friend will appreciate, the minimum time taken to train a recruit depends on the arm in which he is serving, and it is impossible for me to specify any period. In the interest of the individual soldier and of the Army as a whole every endeavour is made to extend training beyond the bare minimum if the demands of the military situation permit.
    Mr. Foster: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of a case that has been sent to his Department from my constituency of a youth who, after less than six months' training, has been sent overseas? Does he consider that period long enough for a new recruit to meet the terrible conditions of war and all that it means?
    Sir J. Grigg: I should not regard it as out of the question for some men working in base areas to go out in less than six months, but I should not regard it as a satisfactory period for combatant service. Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to investigate the circumstances of the case before I answer on the point.
    Sir Alfred Beit: Is not six months far more liberal than occurred in the last war?
    Sir J. Grigg: Yes, but I think this is a rather more complicated war.

    A.B.C.A. (Discussions)
    Mr. Liddallasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that compulsory attendance at Army Bureau of Current Affairs parades or educational lectures, after normal training and working hours, is resented by the rank and file, who consider that a voluntary scheme would have a greater appeal to the ordinary soldier; and will he issue instructions that henceforth attendance at such parades or lectures be voluntary?
    Sir J. Grigg: I understand that in the Navy and the Air Force these discussions are voluntary and take place after normal training and working hours. In the Army they are partly compulsory and take place within working hours and partly voluntary and take place in the soldier's spare time. These are, in my opinion, the right arrangements for the Army, and I am not, moreover, aware of any complaints about them.

    Maritime Royal Artillery (Pay)
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that naval gunners serving on ships of the Merchant Navy are paid an extra 6d. a day while actually embarked; and whether he will authorise a similar payment to men of the Maritime Royal Artillery serving under similar circumstances?
    Sir J. Grigg: I am aware that naval gunners on merchant ships receive an extra allowance of 6d. a day. That is a naval allowance which is not admissible for Army personnel. Gunners of the Maritime Royal Artillery receive the same pay as those of other branches of the Royal Artillery, and as at present advised I do not think that this position should be altered.
    Mr. Bellenger: The right hon. Gentleman has given no reason why this cannot be altered. Is he aware of the feeling that exists among men serving on merchant ships when they find that their equivalents in the Royal Navy are able to get this extra 6d.?
    Sir J. Grigg: Yes, it looks as if it is one of those horrible cases where there is bound to be an anomaly somewhere, and
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    the question is where exactly it should lie. If there is not a discrepancy between men of the Navy and the Army, there would be a discrepancy between men in the Army and their comrades.

    Home Guard
    The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Sir HENRY MORRIS-JONES:
    11. "To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Government will consider the granting of a gratuity at the end of the war to officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the Home Guard?"
    Sir H. Morris-Jones: On a point of Order. I put this Question to the Prime Minister, as it involves a matter of policy, and it was accepted as such by the Clerk at the Table. Is there any means whereby I can get an answer from the source to which I addressed it?
    Mr. Speaker: I have given an answer to the same question several times. The Department concerned is the one to answer the Question.
    Sir J. Grigg: The answer to the Question on the Paper is, No, Sir. As stated by my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister on 4th March, 1942, it will be for the Government of the day to settle the question of a gratuity even for full-time members of the three Services. The position of the Home Guard is, of course, essentially different.
    Sir H. Morris-Jones: As no doubt a gratuity will be given to the Army, will the right hon. Gentleman consider, in view of the sacrifices made by these men and the expenditure to which many of them have been put, making a recommendation that a gratuity should be given to them at the end of hostilities?
    Sir J. Grigg: My hon. Friend's assertion of the probabilities of the case do not amount to anything but a hypothetical question.
    Mr. Shinwell: But in view of the new functions respecting the Home Guard as suggested by the General Officer commanding in the London area, will not that make a difference?
    Sir J. Grigg: I am looking up to see what the General Officer Commanding in the London district said. Authoritative statements on this question will be made by Ministers.

    Officers (Temporary Rank)
    Captain Pooleasked the Secretary of State for War whether he will now amend the regulations so that when an officer has held temporary rank for a period exceeding two years that rank shall become automatically his war substantive rank?
    Sir J. Grigg: I would refer my hon, and gallant Friend to the statement I made on this subject on 10th November last, of which I am sending him a copy. There is nothing I can usefully add.
    Captain Poole: Do we understand that the Minister is incapable of changing his mind on this matter? Is he aware of the great hardship inflicted and of the great discontent which exists in the Service?
    Sir J. Grigg: There is no evidence of any serious discontent since the concessions I announced on that occasion. The fact that concessions were announced is a sign that I am prepared to change my mind when I find it justifiable.
    Captain Poole: Does the Minister realise that the concessions he announced apply only to a very small percentage of the people who are affected?
    Sir J. Grigg: I do not know that, and I do not think it is so.

  SCOTLAND

    Housing Proposals
    Mr. McKinlayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is taking steps to ensure that there will be at least a limited house-building programme in Scotland during the current year?
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. T. Johnston): The shortage of labour and materials makes it impossible to embark on any substantial housing programme at the present time, but I am taking two steps to ease the acute housing position in Scotland. In the first place, I am making special arrangements for expediting the completion of the houses, numbering about 5,000, which local authorities have at present under construction. Secondly, I am making preliminary arrangements for the provision of a limited number of new houses by local authorities. Plans are being prepared on the basis of 1,000 new houses, but the number that it will be possible to build during the current year will depend on from other work of vital importance to
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    the war effort. The bulk of the new houses will be provided on Clydeside, but some of them Will be built in the rural areas in which houses are most urgently required in the interests of food production.
    Mr. McKinlay: Do I take it that due regard will be paid to industrial areas which have suffered bomb damage?
    Mr. Johnston: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Henderson Stewart: As the Minister of Health was able to announce the number of rural houses in England, can my right hon. Friend give the number in Scotland?
    Mr. Johnston: That is under discussion with the local authorities concerned.
    Mr. McNeil: Where the right hon. Gentleman has already sanctioned the completion of partially constructed houses, will this prejudice local authorities in the allocation of new houses where there is serious bomb damage?
    Mr. Johnston: The two things have no necessary co-relation.

    Land Development (Planning Powers)
    Mr. Henderson Stewartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the necessity for ensuring consistency and continuity in the framing and execution of a national policy with respect to the use and development of land throughout Scotland, it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Measure vesting in the Secretary of State for Scotland powers, as regards Scotland, similar to those now proposed to be vested in the Minister of Town and Country Planning as regards England and Wales?
    Mr. Johnston: No legislation is required in order to meet the hon. Member's the extent to which labour can be spared point, since as Planning Minister for Scotland the Secretary of State is already responsible for securing consistency and continuity in the framing and execution of a national policy with respect to the use and development of land in Scotland, and he already exercises the powers conferred by the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act, 1932.
    Mr. Stewart: Does that mean that my right hon. Friend has an actual veto on, say, proposals of the War Office, the Air Ministry, or the Admiralty to build new Service construction or on the Ministry of

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    Fuel and Power to start new mines? Has he control over that development?
    Mr. Johnston: No, Sir; we can give advice and make representations, but over the power of requisitioning for war purposes we have no absolute veto.
    Mr. Stewart: Is it not plain that my right hon. Friend has not the powers which the new Minister of Town and Country Planning is likely to get for England?
    Mr. Johnston: The Minister of Town and Country Planning has at this moment only the powers we possess.

    Civil Defence Services (Accommodation)
    Major Lloydasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that Civil Defence services still retain accommodation in schools in Scotland; that the resultant dislocation has been endured by the education authorities and the parents since 1939; and whether he will forthwith impress upon local Regional Commissioners and Civil Defence authorities the necessity for securing alternative accommodation, if necessary by erecting hutments?
    Mr. Johnston: The reply to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I have already taken such action as was possible in all the cases where it has been reported to me that the occupation of schools for Civil Defence purposes is preventing the restoration of full-time education, and I am prepared to do everything in my power to assist in any further cases where difficulties cannot be settled by local negotiation. I regret, however, that owing to the shortage of labour and materials and the urgent needs of other vital services, I can give no guarantee that the provision of alternative accommodation will always be possible, or that where possible it can be provided immediately.
    Major Lloyd: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the position is rapidly becoming intolerable and that education is being seriously handicapped by the Civil Defence forces occupying so much of the schools?
    Mr. Johnston: As I indicated in my answer, I am extremely sympathetic and will do everything in my power to meet the hon. and gallant Gentleman and his Friends, but I cannot give any guarantee.

    Sugar Beet (Prices)
    Mr. Henderson Stewartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has considered the representations conveyed to him by the honourable Member for East Fife on the subject of the unfairness of the sugar-beet prices offered to Scottish growers as compared with English growers; whether he accepts the case made in these representations; what steps his Department took to represent the case of the Scottish growers to the Ministry of Food before the price was finally determined; and what action his Department is now taking to have the decision reconsidered.
    Mr. Johnston: In England, farmers meet their own transport charges out of a price at the factory varying from 81s. to 83s. per ton. In Scotland, farmers receive 81s. per ton free on rail, the factory meeting transport charges averaging 7s. or more per ton. The views transmitted by my hon. Friend will be considered along with a statement on the subject I am expecting from the National Farmers' Union and Chamber of Agriculture of Scotland. Although all the implications of his Question are not accepted, I can assure the hon. Member that, as hitherto, representations received about sugar-beet prices in Scotland will be discussed fully with the Ministry of Food.

    Juvenile Delinquency (Corporal Punishment)
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the question of the punishment of juvenile crime in Scotland was last a matter of official inquiry; and whether any recommendations were made on the subject of birching?
    Mr. Johnston: The Report of the Joint Departmental Committee on Corporal Punishment was published in 1938. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of an answer I gave to a similar Question last Tuesday.
    Mr. MacMillan: Is the Minister aware that cases of child punishment are almost alone, in that the children have no appeal of any kind and that sentences are carried out summarily? Will he make an inquiry into the whole question?
    Mr. Johnston: An inquiry was instituted into the whole question, and if my hon. Friend cares I will send him a copy of the Report.
    Mr. MacMillan: In view of the fact that the inquiry has produced no result and that these birchings are going on without the children having any right of appeal, will the right hon. Gentleman promote a further inquiry so that we can have some results, as results have not been obvious?
    Mr. MacMillanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in all cases of birching of children the facts are examined by his Department before execution of sentence; and, if not, whether he will have an immediate inquiry into all such cases before execution of sentence, with a view to remission?
    Mr. Johnston: I have no power to institute a general review of sentences passed by courts of law. Since 1886 corporal punishment has been inflicted on the day on which it is ordered by the court.
    Mr. MacMillan: Does not the answer further support the argument in my supplementaries to the previous Question, and will the right hon. Gentleman see that children have the same right of appeal that every citizen in the country has?
    Mr. Johnston: As the law stands, corporal punishment can be inflicted under conditions I have indicated, and it would require legislation, which I am not in a position to promise, to change it.
    Mr. McNeil: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in all other branches of punishment there has been some progress since 1886, and does he not agree with the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. M. MacMillan)?
    Mr. Johnston: It is later than 1886. The inquiry was held as recently as 1938.
    Mr. McNeil: But does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there has been no revision?

  FUEL AND POWER

    Regional Commissioners (Staffs)
    Mr. Tinkerasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he is now in a position to state the total number of persons employed by the eight Regional Commissioners under his control and the approximate annual cost to the Treasury; and will he give separate figures for each area?
    Major Lloyd George: As the answer involves a tabular statement, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the answer:
    The regional organisation of my Department consists of 12 regions, eight covering the coal producing areas and four covering non-producing areas. (There is a certain amount of coal produced in the London and South-Eastern area, but for practical purposes it is scheduled as a non-producing area.) The total staff employed in the 12 regions is 3,179, and the approximate annual cost to the Treasury is £725,000. These figures cover staff engaged on all activities of the Ministry, including functions, such as petrol rationing, and the distribution of coal supplied to domestic and controlled premises, which were in operation prior to the formation of the Ministry in June last.
    The figures for each area are:—

    Producing Regions.

    No. of Staff.

    Approximate Annual Cost.

    £

    Northern "A"

    38

    14,000

    Northern "B"

    142

    37,000

    North Eastern

    299

    73,000

    North Western

    337

    84,000

    North Midland

    297

    77,000

    Midland

    384

    85,000

    Scottish

    287

    74,000

    Wales

    214

    57,000

    Total

    1,998

    £501,000

    Non-Producing Regions.

    London and South Eastern

    461

    91,000

    Southern

    251

    44,000

    Eastern

    207

    38,000

    Southwestern

    262

    51,000

    Total

    1,181

    £224,000

    GRAND TOTALS

    3,179

    £725,000

    Wood Fuel (Inquiry)
    Sir William Davisonasked the Minister of Fuel and Power, in connection with his appeals to burn less coal whether he will issue an official statement as to the risk incurred by persons who are able to burn wood logs, either green or dry, owing to the highly inflammable resinous deposit in the chimney?
    The Minister of Fuel and Power (Major Lloyd George): I am in consultation with the Department of Scientific and

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    Industrial Research on the subject, and I expect to be in a position to issue an official statement shortly.
    Sir W. Davison: Can my right hon. and gallant Friend state whether any amelioration of this can be achieved by burning coal with logs, and whether anything can be done in the way of scraping chimneys in order to relieve what is alleged to be a danger?
    Major Lloyd George: As far as I know, there is no greater danger in burning wood than there is in burning coal, but I am having further inquiries made. From correspondence I have seen, I believe that if chimneys can be swept twice a year, there is no danger.

    Domestic Fuel Rationing
    Mr. James Griffithsasked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether he can now say whether it is his intention to introduce a scheme of domestic fuel rationing on the lines of the Annex to the White Paper on Coal [Cmd. 6364]?
    Major Lloyd George: The response to the appeals I have made for the voluntary reduction of fuel consumption has been generally satisfactory, and, while every possible economy is still vitally necessary and restrictions on delivery of solid fuels will continue to be applied, I have every hope that the need for introducing a coupon rationing scheme will not arise.
    Sir Percy Harris: Does not this result reflect great credit on the housewives who have endeavoured to carry out the wishes of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman by exercising great economy and skill in the use of coal?
    Major Lloyd George: The figures which I have from all over the country leave no doubt that very substantial economies have been made by domestic consumers, and I think they are entitled to the greatest credit for it.
    Mr. Gallacher: Should not the Minister also give them great credit for the amount of stones which they are burning?
    Major Lloyd George: I do not accept altogether the hon. Member's statement about stones, but I would remind him that stones have to come up from the mines in the first place.
    Sir Alfred Beit: Is the reduction in consumption equivalent to the reduction in output?

  BOARD OF TRADE (ASSISTANT SECRETARIES)
  Sir Herbert Williamsasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of persons holding the office of Assistant Secretary in his Department?
  Mr. Dalton: Thirty-four.
  Sir H. Williams: Do I understand that there are 34 Assistant Secretaries in this one Department?
  Mr. Dalton: Yes, Sir, that is exactly what I have told my hon. Friend.
  Sir H. Williams: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what they are all doing?
  Mr. Dalton: We are all doing very valuable work in assisting to win the war, and I hope my hon. Friend can say the same.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Pit Pants (Warwickshire Miners)
    Mr. Bowlesasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he proposes to take to remedy the scarcity of light linen drawers, known as pit pants, used by the Warwickshire miners when working underground, particulars of which have been supplied to him by the hon. Member for Nuneaton?
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Dalton): In the light of the information sent me by my hon. Friend, I have arranged for additional supplies of these pit pants to be sent at once to Nuneaton.

    Manufacturers' Output (Curtailment)
    Mr. Wootton-Daviesasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether, in fixing datum periods for trades selected for curtailment of output, he will take into consideration the unfairness of choosing a wartime period in which the manufacturer may have met with exceptional difficulties, such as shortage of packages; and whether, where possible, he will select datum periods prior to the outbreak of war;
    (2) whether he will fix a definite datum period governing wartime output, applicable to all manufacturers, since the variations now existing are confusing and the reasons for them not understood?
    Mr. Dalton: No, Sir. I have no reason to suppose that the adoption of a uniform pre-war period, as suggested by my hon. Friend, would prove fairer to manufac-

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    turers as a whole than the present arrangements. But, apart from this, recalculation of standard period figures at this stage of the war would impose a heavy burden on traders and their hard-pressed staffs, which I could not justify.
    Mr. Wootton-Davies: Does not my right hon. Friend think that this proposal would simplify matters very much? Are we not liable to get an unbalanced view by having various datum periods?
    Mr. Dalton: No, I do not think it would simplify matters, and I have not received any representations from any body of traders in favour of the hon. Member's proposal. Most of the periods run from 1st June, 1939, and terminate either six months or 12 months thereafter, and I think that is well understood. If they had to recalculate, many traders would have a great deal of work which they are not in a position to do at the moment; also, some of the records have been lost, unfortunately, through enemy action.

    Sponges (Pottery Industry)
    Mr. Arthur Hollinsasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider fixing maximum retail prices of sponges, in view of the fact that prices have risen so steeply that they seriously affect the earnings of the pottery operatives in the clay processes, who have to purchase between 1,300 and 1,500 pieces per week of fine faced sponges?
    Mr. Dalton: Yes, Sir. I have asked the Central Price Regulation Committee to look into this matter.

    Closed Businesses (Register)
    Major Lyonsasked the President of the Board of Trade the number of former shopkeepers now on the Register prepared for those who have ceased to carry on business?
    Mr. Dalton: Up to last Saturday some 1,500 applications for admission to the Register had been received. These are now being examined.
    Major Lyons: In view of the fact that those figures in no way represent the large number of persons who have been put out of business through no fault of their own, will the right hon. Gentleman say that the Government really mean to do something for these unfortunate people?
    Mr. Dalton: The Question I was asked was how many people had applied to be put on the Register. I have informed the House more than once—and I think, generally speaking, that the statement of Government policy has been well received—that the first step must be to get these names on the Register. That work is now proceeding, and 1,500 have already applied to be put on the Register.
    Major Lyons: Has any step been taken by his Department, which has all those Under-Secretaries of which we have just heard, to write to the people who are qualified to come on to the Register?
    Mr. Dalton: Of course, steps have been taken; otherwise, we should have not have had 1,500 people already applying.

    Tinplate Industry
    Mr. J. Griffithsasked the Minister of Production whether further curtailment of tinplate production is contemplated; and whether he will take steps to utilise the available man-power and premises for alternative war production?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Production (Mr. Garro Jones): My right hon. Friend can say, subject to the changing demands of war production, that there is no reason to anticipate that further tinplate mills will be closed down.

  AFFORESTATION
  Mr. Richardsasked the right hon. and gallant Member for Rye as representing the Forestry Commissioners, what proportion of the land of England and of Wales, respectively, is, or has been, afforested by the Forestry Commission; and the number of workers employed in the two countries?
  Colonel Sir George Courthope (Forestry Commissioner): 193,800 acres of land in England and 75,200 acres in Wales are, or have been, afforested by the Forestry Commission. The number of workers employed according to the latest return was 2,540 in England and 920 in Wales.
  Mr. Richards: While thanking the right hon. and gallant Gentleman for that information, may I ask what proportion of the Commissioners are Welsh-speaking?
  Sir G. Courthope: I must have notice of that Question.

  AIRCRAFT ACCIDENTS
  Mr. Thorneasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can give any information in connection with the two aeroplanes that crashed in Leicestershire, one at Kirby Munroe and the other at Leesford; whether any of the pilots were killed; and whether any of the pilots were American?
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Air (Captain Harold Balfour): I am informed that the cause of this accident was the collision in mid-air of two aircraft of the U.S. Army Air Corps. I regret to say that the pilots, both of whom were Americans, lost their lives. The House will, I know, wish to join with me in an expression of sympathy with the relatives.
  Mr. Thorneasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can give any information in connection with the two men who were killed on Friday, 29th January, when British aeroplanes crashed into a platelayer's hut near Selby, Yorkshire; and whether he can state the cause of the accident?
  Captain Balfour: The causes of this accident are at present under investigation. The crew of the aircraft which crashed into the hut escaped injury but unfortunately one of the four railway employees in the hut was killed and the other three were seriously injured. I am sure that the House will wish to join with me in expressing sympathy with the relatives of the railwayman who lost his life and with the injured.
  Mr. Thorne: May I ask whether, unless there is great urgency about the journey, the engines are examined before the planes start flying?
  Captain Balfour: Yes, Sir, every aircraft has to be in an airworthy condition before it is allowed to fly.
  Sir H. Williams: Will the railwaymen receive compensation?
  Captain Balfour: Compensation for death or injury to civilians is a matter for the Ministry of Pensions.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Bread (Deliveries)
    Sir H. Williamsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food why bread may be delivered daily to a catering establishment or institution, to
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    the Armed Forces or to Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes, while such delivery can be effected three times a week only-to private houses; and whether, in the interests of economy, he will apply the provisions of paragraph 7 of the Bread (Control and Maximum Prices) Order, 1943, to all establishments and firms?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Mr. Mabane): The provisions of Article 7 of the Bread (Control and Maximum Prices) Order, 1943, are intended to apply to the delivery of the few loaves of bread consumed daily in the private household. My hon. Friend will appreciate that corresponding economies in transport and man-power could not be effected by applying the same methods to the delivery of wholesale quantities to the Armed Forces or catering establishments, even if the difficulties of storage could be overcome.

    Flour (Packing)
    Mr. Thorneasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what amount of social labour will be saved when, from 2nd May, the packing of flour will be permitted only in 3 lb., 6 lb., 12 lb. and 24 lb. containers; and whether it is intended to ration bread?
    Mr. Mabane: I am unable to give an estimate of the labour which will be saved when arrangements are in operation for the packing of flour solely in the weights mentioned, but I am advised that this standardisation will effect savings at several stages, both in connection with the manufacture of packing material and the subsequent packing and distribution of flour. The saving of labour is, however, a secondary consideration. The primary purpose is to provide a basis for a scheme of flour and bread rationing should this at any time become necessary. In so far as the second part of the Question is concerned I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend, the Member for West Leyton (Mr. Sorensen) on 20th January.
    Mr. Thorne: Will the right hon. Gentleman send me a reply to the latter part of the Question?
    Mr. Mabane: I will send my hon. Friend a copy of the answer referred to.
    Mr. R. J. Taylor: Would it not have been better to put up the flour in the usual weights?
    Mr. Mabane: No, Sir.
    Mr. Taylor: Why not?
    Mr. Mabane: Because that would not have fitted in.

  NEWSPAPER ARTICLE (INVESTIGATIONS)
  Mr. Arthur Duckworthasked the Minister of Information whether he is aware that a newspaper article, details of which have been communicated to him, conveyed valuable information to the enemy and was calculated to endanger the lives of officers and men and to prejudice the success of future operations; whether this article has been submitted to the Director of Public Prosecutions; whether he has consulted the Service Departments concerned; and whether he has any statement to make?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Information (Mr. Thurtle): My right hon. Friend is in consultation with the Service Departments concerned with regard to this article, and I cannot make any statement at present.
  Mr. Duckworth: Can my hon. Friend say why this article was not censored?
  Mr. Thurtle: I am afraid that I am not in a position at present to add to my answer, but I will let the hon. Member know when it is possible for a statement to be made.

  WOMEN'S LAND ARMY (BILLETING)
  Commander King-Hallasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that no compulsory powers exist for the billeting of members of the Land Army; and whether he will take steps to make such powers available to billeting officers?
  Mr. Pym (Lord of the Treasury): I have been asked to reply. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Health is prepared, where necessary, to use his powers of compulsory billeting to secure accommodation for Women's Land Army members as for other war workers. The regional organisation of the Ministry of Health is at the present time co-operating closely with war agricultural executive committees and the Women's Land Army in the counties with a view to finding the necessary accommodation for additional workers.

  MERCHANT NAVY
  Mr. De la Bèreasked the Prime Minister whether he will find time for a Debate on the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for Evesham, relating to the Merchant Navy?
  [That this House records with deep gratitude the services rendered by the Merchant Navy in carrying men of the United Nations to North Africa in the latter months, of 1942; appreciates the essential services of our shipping; stresses the necessity for never again allowing the shipyards to remain idle as they were in the days prior to the outbreak of hostilities; is of the opinion that a plan to deal with conditions and prospects for British masters, officers and crews, should be incorporated in statute to ensure that the merchant seamen who have given such splendid service during this war shall not be permitted to become unemployed and distressed after the war, and emphasises the necessity for offering inducement for the best of our young men to come forward into the Merchant Service with a view to maintaining the efficiency and noble traditions of this service in the post-war period.]
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): While sharing to the full the sentiments which animate my hon. Friend, I regret that at the moment it is not possible to find time for the discussion of the Motion standing in his name.
  Mr. De la Bère: While thanking the Prime Minister for his kind remarks, may I ask him to bear in mind the necessity at the end of the war for protecting in every possible way the men of the Merchant Navy, because they have done so much for the country during the war? Will he take care that they shall not be forgotten but shall be given all that is due to them in return for the deep debt of gratitude which the nation owes to them?

  UNITED NATIONS (WAR COUNCIL)
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Mooreasked the Prime Minister whether he is yet in a position to make a statement in regard to the creation of a United Nations War Council?
  The Prime Minister: I hope shortly to make a statement to the House on the war situation in which, undoubtedly, references will occur by no means unrelated to this problem.

  SHIPPING RESOURCES (IMPORTS)
  Mr. Shinwellasked the Prime Minister whether he will take an early opportunity of making a statement on the import and shipping position; and whether he will indicate what further sacrifices are necessary in order to produce the maximum effort from the civilian population?
  The Prime Minister: In my next statement to the House upon the progress of the war, I shall touch upon these vital matters, but not in a form which will give the enemy any information which would be valuable to them.
  Mr. Shinwell: Has my right hon. Friend observed that Mr. Tom Wickard, the American Secretary for Agriculture, has just made a statement in which he speaks of Great Britain as dipping into her food reserves? If the American public can be given that information, why cannot we be informed? [Interruption.] Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to give me an answer and not take any notice of the interruptions?
  The Prime Minister: Well, Sir, I shall make a statement which will touch upon some aspects of this problem. It is quite true that we are dipping into our reserves, but we must take a view over a long period of months. I am not unduly anxious about the situation.
  Mr. Shinwell: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that my desire is not to convey information to the enemy but to indicate to the civilian population the need for facing sacrifices?
  The Prime Minister: I think we are going to be able to get through pretty well on the lines on which we are now running, in the way of food.

  RUSSIA (SUPPLY OF ARMS)
  Mr. Shinwellasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on the supply of arms to Soviet Russia in order to reassure the nation that we are 100 per cent. behind our Soviet Ally in her struggle?
  The Prime Minister: I am glad to take this opportunity of declaring that we have done, are now doing, and will continue to do our utmost.
  Mr. Shinwell: Has my right hon. Friend been made aware of the speech
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  recently delivered by a former member of the War Cabinet and Minister of Aircraft Production, in which he indicated that we are not doing sufficient for Russia?
  The Prime Minister: That is what one may call a process of emphatic stimulation.
  Sir Waldron Smithers: When the Prime Minister is considering these things, will he take into consideration whether the coalminers of this country are making full sacrifices?

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Defence (Post-War Cost)
    Sir A. Knoxasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can give any approximate estimate of the cost of defence annually in the 10 years after the war in view of the lesson learned by our lack of preparation previous to 1939 and the higher rates of pay of personnel which will be necessary?
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Kingsley Wood): As I said in my speech on 2nd February, we must first and above all make adequate provision for our contribution to the Armed Forces which will be necessary after the war for international security. The extent of that provision, however, is dependent on many factors which at present can only be regarded as conjectural.

    Post-War Schemes (Cost)
    Sir A. Knoxasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can give an estimate of the additional annual demands on the Exchequer after the war for housing, education, civil aviation, repatriation of aliens, colonial development, agriculture, afforestation, war pensions, the Beveridge plan and the Uthwatt and Scott Report, should they all be adopted in their entirety?
    Sir K. Wood: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave on 21st January to a Question on this subject by my hon. Friend the Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison).
    Sir A. Knox: Does not my right hon. Friend consider that even a rough statement on these lines might check the exuberance of reformers now, as people in this country do not always realise that everything depends upon industry?

    Infirm Children (Income Tax Relief)
    Mr. Oliverasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the hardship imposed, on the small taxpayer in particular, in cases of children who are permanently and chronically infirm and will, during the whole of their lives, be totally dependent on their parents, he will consider extending in such cases the personal relief given in respect of children under the Income Tax Acts to apply after such children have attained the age of 16 years?
    Sir K. Wood: I cannot anticipate my Budget Statement, but I may remind my hon. Friend that the point which he raises came under discussion in the Finance Bill Debates last year.
    Mr. Oliver: Does not my right hon. Friend consider that the relief which is given in respect of children when they are attending an educational institution until 21 years of age might also be extended to children of this class, where the child allowance ceases at 16 years of age?
    Sir K. Wood: I note my hon. Friend's observations.

    Social Insurance
    Mr. Douglasasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can give an estimate of the extent to which the yield of Income Tax and Excess Profits Tax would be reduced as a result of the contributions for social insurance proposed in the Beveridge Report to be paid by employers, employees and others?
    Sir K. Wood: I regret that I am unable to furnish the estimate which my hon, Friend desires.

    Merchant Navy War Risk Pay (Income Tax)
    Sir T. Mooreasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is prepared to consider exempting from liability for Income Tax any moneys paid to members of the Merchant Navy as war risks or danger pay?
    Sir K. Wood: I am afraid I do not see my way to adopt my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion. I am sure he will appreciate the difficulty, at a time when many classes of the community are subject to many and varied risks, of attempting to graduate taxation according to the danger attendant upon the earning of income.
    Sir T. Moore: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that many forms of allowance which are not subject to Income Tax are made to members of the Regular Forces? Why should there be discrimination against the gallant members of the Merchant Navy?
    Sir K. Wood: I always appreciate my hon. and gallant Friend's motives, but I hope that he will appreciate the answer that I have given.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I do not agree with his answer at all?

  COLONIAL PROBLEMS (UNIVERSITY POSTS)
  Mr. John Dugdaleasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how many university posts there are which are concerned directly with the study of colonial problems?
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Assheton): In the last year before the war (1938–39) there were, in the universities of Great Britain, 16 posts dealing with specialised subjects such as Imperial and Colonial History, Colonial Administration and Constitution of the British Empire. The hon. Member will appreciate that the study of colonial problems is not a separate field but is also covered to a large extent by many other Departments, especially history, geography, economics, political science, sociology, anthropology, languages, tropical diseases and agriculture. Mention should also be made of the London School of Oriental and African Studies, where the scope of teaching covers the culture and history of Oriental and African countries and of the Far East.
  Mr. Dugdale: Is the Minister satisfied that there are sufficient of these posts, in view of the large numbers of questions to be studied?
  Mr. Assheton: That is rather a different question.

  FOREIGN POLICY, 1929–1942
  Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has considered the need to publish a White Paper giving the main outlines of British foreign policy, diplomatic reports and incidents between 1929 and 1942?
  The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Richard Law): This question is being considered, but I am not yet in a position to make any statement.
  Mr. Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that information of this kind has already been given in the United States of America and that the people of this country ought to have the same consideration shown to them?
  Mr. Law: Yes, Sir. The question is being considered.
  Mr. Ivor Thomas: Would it not be better to forget the years 1931–38?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Arthur Greenwood: May I ask the Prime Minister or the Leader of the House when the eagerly awaited statement of the Prime Minister will be made?
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will make a statement on the War Situation on the third Sitting Day. The statement will be made on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House and there will be an opportunity for a debate to take place, if the House so desires. If there is time, we shall proceed that day with the consideration of the Civil Supplementary Estimates already announced.
Mr. Greenwood: Might I put this point to the Leader of the House? It has happened before that, after an important statement by the Prime. Minister, the Debate peters out, not from lack of interest but because many Members have not had time to consider the statement in all its implications. If the House should not feel on the third Sitting Day that it wishes to pursue the statement, will a further day be given to continue the discussion?
Mr. Eden: That can certainly be considered, but I have always thought, when there was not a Debate after a statement by the Prime Minister, that it was merely, a reflection of the universal satisfaction.
Mr. Stokes: Will the Leader of the House arrange to suspend the Rule on the third Sitting Day because, to my own knowledge, quite a number of Members wish to speak; or can he arrange for an
1168
extra day this week so that consideration of the Prime Minister's statement might not be suspended over the week-end?
Mr. Eden: The hon. Gentleman's proposition is in complete conflict with that made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite and I could not accede to it. I can tell the House, as it may be convenient to make another announcement, that next week we propose to allot the three Sitting Days to a Debate upon the report of Sir William Beveridge on Social Insurance and Allied Services.
Mr. Granville: If there are a number of speakers who wish to speak on the Prime Minister's statement will such an opportunity be given?
Mr. Eden: I cannot give such an undertaking. I think we must follow our usual practice and see how we get on.
Mr. Stokes: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain to the House why it is necessary to defer this statement until the third Sitting Day? Why cannot it be made To-morrow and debated To-morrow and Thursday?
Mr. Eden: I think the hon. Member is most unreasonable. My right hon. Friend has just returned from a journey not only of an important but obviously of a physically exhausting character. We are all pleased to see him in such good health. I think it is only ordinary courtesy to allow him a few hours to prepare his statement.
Earl Winterton: Arising out of the question put by my right hon. Friend beside me, does the right hon. Gentleman realise that others besides my right hon. Friend think that this would be a convenient method both for the Government, the Prime Minister and Members of the House? If it is not possible to effect it on this occasion would he allow consultations to take place in the usual way, to see whether we cannot avoid the calamitous events which occurred on a previous occasion?
Mr. Eden: Certainly, I think there is a good deal to be said for the suggestion. I am ready that it should be examined.
Sir Douglas Hacking: May I ask a question on to-day's Business? In view of the very large number of Members who desire to take part in the Debate on the

1169
Second Reading of the Catering Bill will my right hon. Friend consider either giving a second day for the Second Reading discussion or, alternatively, suspending the Standing Orders?
Mr. Eden: I hope my right hon. Friend will not press either of those requests. We came to an arrangement last autumn as regards the hours of the Sittings of the House, and we have adhered to it absolutely since. If we start to make exceptions, I do not know where we shall get to. There will be many other opportunities for debating this Bill both on the Committee stage and on Third Reading. Therefore I cannot give an extra day in view of the Business we have to get through. There will be plenty of opportunities for Members to exercise their eloquence on this Bill.
Sir D. Hacking: In view of the fact that there are over 40 Members who wish to take part in this Debate, would my right hon. Friend not reconsider that decision?
Mr. Eden: My right hon. Friend will realise my difficulty. If I make an exception now on this Bill, there is no reason why I should not make a series of future exceptions. Hon. Members will have plenty of opportunity on the Committee stage. As I understand the position, a great deal of the opposition is on Committee points.
Mr. Shin well: Will my right hon. Friend convey to Government supporters behind him the desire of the Government to avoid, at any cost, party controversy?
Sir John Mellor: Why is there such extraordinary haste to get the Second Reading of this Bill without adequate discussion?
Viscountess Astor: Is it not true that this Bill is long overdue, and is it not true that the same organisation that was against it 22 years ago is still against it?
Mr. Buchanan: With regard to the Beveridge Report Debate in the next series of Sittings, is there to be any Government Motion, or are we to discuss it merely on the Adjournment?
Mr. Eden: I hope to be in a position to announce the position in respect of that on the third Sitting Day of the present series of Sittings, when I announce the Business for the next series of Sittings.
Mr. Bellenger: As I understand that there may be another Motion on the Order Paper is it the intention of the Government to give any indication during the Debate of their views on that Report?
Mr. Eden: Perhaps the hon. Member will let me make my ordinary Business statement on the Third Sitting Day. All I wished to do to-day was to give advance notice. I can say that the Debate will not take place on the Adjournment.
Major Petherick: Are we to take it that in the case of any Parliamentary Bill in future only one day will be given to its discussion on Second Reading, however important it may be, whereas a Motion about the Beveridge Report will have three days allotted to it?
Mr. Eden: I do not think that I should by any means lay that down as a definite rule, but obviously opportunities for discussion of this Bill will become considerable, not only in Committee but on Third Reading.
Mr. Henderson Stewart: As the House will probably think it necessary to regard the Beveridge Report in its proper setting, would it be possible for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make a statement early in the proceedings to show the commitments of the country after the war, and the possible national income, or is it possible to have a White Paper issued before the Debate takes place?
Mr. Eden: My hon. Friend's first point was met in the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer early last week. I do not wish to say anything more about this Debate until I announce Business.
Sir J. Mellor: As the right hon. Gentleman has said that there will be adequate opportunity for further discussion of the Catering Bill on the Committee stage, will he give an undertaking to afford all the time which the opposition requires on the Committee stage?
Mr. Eden: I do not think that any Government has ever been asked to give that pledge. I can assure the hon. Member that of course we shall give fair and reasonable time.

NEW MEMBER SWORN
Thomas Fraser, Esquire, for the County of Lanark (Hamilton Division).
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  CATERING WAGES BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Sir Douglas Hacking: On a point of Order. For the convenience of the House may I ask, Mr. Speaker, which Amendment you propose to call? I think you have an Amendment on the Order Paper and another manuscript Amendment which I handed in. I think it would be for the convenience of the House if you could say which Amendment will be called, and possibly when.
  Mr. Speaker: I do not propose to call the Amendment in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Oxford University (Petty Officer Alan Herbert):
  [That this House, though willing to welcome any necessary, practical and comprehensive measures for the welfare of workers and the efficiency of industry, and eager to see the catering trades in a fit condition to employ and entertain more persons after the war, declines to give a Second Reading to a piecemeal and half-hearted measure offering no new conditions to workers, no new attractions to tourists and no proposals for the amendment of the licensing laws, which are a unique burden upon the industries concerned and prime obstacles to progress.]
  The right hon. Member for Chorley (Sir D. Hacking) has handed in another Amendment, which seems to have substantial backing, and I propose to call it.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Bevin): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  I have noted that this Bill seems to have caused on its way to this stage some amount of excitement. I think I shall be able to show in the course of my statement that this Bill does not, in the party sense—although it may in the trade sense, or the sectional interests sense—raise matters of controversy at all. I do not claim this Bill as either a Labour or a Socialist Measure. I claim that it is merely a development of a policy that has been followed in this House for over 50 years. It is over 50 years ago that the first step was taken by this House of Commons to support the principle of collective bargaining and collective

  1197
  regulation. It was a timorous step; but the House of Commons at that time carried the first Fair Wages Clause, which imposed upon public authorities and the Government the duty of supporting organised trades in the maintenance of the standards which they had built up. The House of Commons, under the Liberal Government of 1909, amended that Clause, and strengthened it; and in the same year my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister introduced one of the most beneficent Measures, which had for its object the wiping-out of a great blot on British industry—namely, the sweated trades. This Measure was the Trade Boards Bill. It is true that that Bill was largely limited to the worst type of trades.
  I have read that Debate of 1909 with very great care; I wish the opponents of this Bill had read it. All the dismal prophecies made in that Debate—that the regulation of industry by means of legal regulation and by minimum conditions would ruin industries—have been absolutely falsified by events. In the historical development of those trades, every one that was brought under the Trade Boards Act became, in fact, prosperous, and became organised. Not only did the Act wipe out a blot on English industrial history; it went further, and promoted industrial organisation. Many of the trades which started with trade boards, like the tailoring trade, developed joint representation with this legal backing, until to-day they find an honourable place both in our industrial development and in our export trade.
  This whole problem was reviewed in 1917 and 1918 by a Committee appointed by this House and by the Government of the day, and presided over by Mr. Whitley. The Whitley Committee, consisting of representatives of all phases of industrial life and organisations, went into the problem very carefully; and it would be well, I think, to call attention to one or two essential features of their Report. Here is one very vital paragraph in their Report, which changed the course of industrial relations, and which I assert, as a result of that change, gave us joint machinery, which has been invaluable in the conduct of this great war:
  "It may be desirable to state here our considered opinion that an essential condition of securing a permanent improvement in the relations between employers and employed is that there should be adequate organisation on the part of both employers and workpeople."
  1198
  I emphasise that, because it is one of the bases of my action now. Organisation to some extent in this industry exists on one side, and not on the other. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] I will explain why in a moment.
  "The proposals outlined for joint co-operation throughout the several industries depend for their ultimate success on there being such organisation on both sides, and such organisation is necessary also to provide means whereby the arrangements and agreements made for the industry may be effectively carried out."
  The second part of their recommendations is complementary. They recognise that where large numbers of people were unorganised, for instance where there were large numbers of women employed, there should be some added power of protection and regulation. They moved away entirely in their recommendations from the concept of a sweated trade. May I say in passing that I do not intend in this Debate to begin hurling charges about sweating, and all the rest of it? I stand on a much higher principle in the approach to this problem. The Committee's recommendation was that the trade boards should have power, in addition to determining minimum rates of wages, to deal with hours of labour and questions cognate to wages and hours. Note that
  "The trade boards shall have power to initiate inquiries and make proposals to the Department concerned on matters affecting the industrial conditions of the trade as well as on conditions of general interest to the industries concerned respectively."
  In 1918 the Government of the day brought a Bill before Parliament which to some extent harked back to 1909 and did not give full effect to the recommendations I have just read. It was this House of Commons, by an Amendment—[Interruption]—not the same House, I admit; but I hope that the present House has as high traditions and as much regard to the people who need protection as that House did in 1918—which lifted the matter above the mere question of sweated conditions and insisted that the paramount and overriding consideration was whether there was regulation in the industry. It is significant too, in regard to the 1909 Act and the 1918 Act, that both Bills were carried without a Division. I hope that we shall not do worse to-day. Only one similarity existed between the two situations. The then opponents of regulation said, as they say now, that the introduce-

  1199
  tion of this beneficent legislation in 1918 was a contravention of a Government guarantee not to introduce controversial legislation during the war. I was particularly interested as to the argument that was advanced. Notwithstanding that, the House of Commons carried it without a Division.
  Now what followed? Fourteen trades boards were established in 1919, and 52 are in existence at the present time. There were only seven in existence prior to 1918. Only in two cases has there been any public inquiry at all, and this is very important, having regard to the Government's attitude to-day. Seventy-seven joint industrial councils now exist which were established following the first part of the Whitley Report, and even in that period it will be remembered by the House of Commons that under the Corn Production Act you adopted a wages board for agriculture. Then you dropped it, but it had to be brought back. In this war, I am happy to say, the procedure for regulation in agriculture has been improved with the consent of everybody.
  Has there been a more costly and bitter struggle—unwisely I think—than there has been in the mining industry? To-day, as the result of the action of this Government in sticking to the Whitley Report and pursuing it, we are on the eve of a final solution of a national board for the mining industry, not for the war, but permanently, which, in my opinion, will not only carry us through the war but will see us through the transition and into a peaceful development of that great industry. I mention this because it has been suggested that we have singled out the catering industry. We have done nothing of the kind. Since I have been in office I have helped to promote 24 joint industrial councils. I tackled, immediately I took office, the question of the great distributive trades, a question as complex as this one, and as a result of endeavour, six J.I.C.s have been established and are working for the distributive trades at the present moment. Therefore, when I am charged and the Government are charged with breaking a pledge I assert, without fear of contradiction, that this is not only a non-party business—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] All I say is that if Members of the Conservative Party now want to saddle the refusal of the regulation of minimum conditions on that party—
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  [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."]—I have so long dealt with employers of labour, many of whom sit behind me on these benches to-day, that I know it is not true of you. I know it is not true. You would not interrupt me and assert that in any negotiating conference room in this country. I have had over 30 years' experience in sitting at the table dealing with employers up and down this country, and I know them better than that. I have been asked over and over again if I would approach successive Governments to ask for a regulation in order to strengthen them. What for? To protect the good employer, to protect the man who wants to give good conditions against the man who wants to cut him out by unfair competition. Therefore, I assert that the Government are not introducing party controversy but are carrying out a continuity of policy which has been continued by successive Governments in this House for many years.
  In this trade there is a large proportion of women employed. I say, with a long experience, that with regard to women passing through industry into marriage, and when there is constant change, one of the great difficulties is that of organisation and protection for them. That is not a reflection upon them. There is not the continuity in industry with regard to women to the same extent as with regard to men.
  I have been asked, Why do you need the Bill now? First, I need it for war. As a result of an Order for which my Ministry was responsible I have increased canteens from just over a few hundreds to 8,000. The few people who represent hotels really do not represent the catering industry; it is a far wider thing than that, as I shall show. At present I propose to call up women up to 40. I regard the maintenance of this catering service—I prefer to call it a service rather than an industry—as being so important that it is imperative that I should leave to the catering industry, possibly under an Essential Work Order or some other means, a sufficient staff to maintain it in the interests of public morale and in the interests of the well-being of the community. But I have no basis to work upon at all and one of the first things that we shall want considered is not merely the long-term, arrangements, but some interim arrangements which will enable me to

  1201
  operate the other Orders on a satisfactory basis.
  Then I need it for the transition period, and the transition period is going to be one of the most difficult that this country has ever faced. I have been quite a good fellow, I have found, in transferring people at the rate for the job, away from their jobs to other industries. Does this Service imagine for one moment, however, that without the women knowing what they are to be paid and without being organised in industry during this war they are going to get the best class possible coming back to it? Will there not have to be some protection, some advice and some help to rehabilitate this Service at the end of the war? Let me say this—and I have tried to study this question deeply—that our people have had no holiday, no rest, no recuperation since the war broke out; they have had winters of blackout one after another, and, if I read the people of Britain aright, when the whistle blows the first thing they will want will be a holiday. I am ready to co-operate with all these great services to try to find facilities so that it can be a health-giving holiday and in order that our people may have a chance.
  But I need the Bill also for the post-war period. I have said before in this House that I am one of those who do not separate pre-war, war and post-war, as if they were three separate states of existence. One is an intensification of another; what you do in one has a great effect on the other, and I cannot separate the progression of this business into three separate categories. It must be progressive. Let me say too that I do not regard this catering service as purely commercial. A large part of it must, inevitably, be a social service as well. It has a great bearing on the provisions that have to be made to cope with the problem of organised leisure, and organised leisure, properly used, can contribute in a considerable measure to the volume of employment in the country. Holidays do not mean a waste of effort. I think my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister would agree with me that one of the great assets in this war has been the inventive genius that has been developed as a result of shorter working hours and the development of the leisure industries, which in the matter of radio-location, and in many other ways, have put us right in the fore-
  1202
  front in this war. Holidays can be made complementary with employment, as well as providing leisure for the producer. New measures as to leisure and as to spending it will have to be studied now, and I want them to be studied before the problem is dumped upon us and we are found not ready to deal with it. I think I have made it clear that I want this Bill for the war, for the transition period and for the post-war period.
  Now may I turn to earlier efforts to regulate this industry? In 1924, in accordance with the spirit of the Bill of 1918, an attempt was made to regulate this industry. It failed. The Labour Government went out of office, and the proposal was dropped. A second attempt was made in 1930. I have been asked, "Why do you not rely on the trade board procedure?" I have been rather amused by that question, because, in 1930 all that procedure was carried out and the Department was taken to the courts to fight it, and in the end the thing was again dropped. But I thought it desirable, in order to be quite fair to those who opposed the 1930 proposals, to read carefully all that was said in the, court, and all of the claim that was made then by the opponents of this effort. The principal point, the principal claim that was submitted was one of scope, and the great argument before the court: turned on that issue. This is what was said by the opponents—the same people who are opposing the proposal to-day: "You cannot make a trade board for the whole industry. There are so many various sections and functions and such diversity that any attempt to establish one trade board for the whole industry will be wrong."
  That was the argument. Very good. I have accepted that and have tried to meet that. There is a great deal in it. I am always willing to study what my opponents have to say. I have always had to do that. Therefore I thought, and the Government thought, that the basis had better be changed and instead of the Minister deciding, then waiting for objections and then having inquiries, we would in this Bill appoint a Commission—an independent Commission [HON. MEMBERS "Oh."] It comes ill from hon. Members in this House to sneer at that. You have trusted me since 1940 with powers and have never questioned my exercise of them. If you have never questioned me in ordering millions of

  1203
  people about the country, why do you question my integrity in appointing a Commission now for this purpose? Am I good only for one purpose, and not for another?
  Commander Bower: You are not going to be there all the time.
  Mr. Bevin: I have been dealing with Departments for 35 years, treating every Government alike, as a trade union leader, and I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that in my long experience of Departments I have never found a Minister depart from impartiality in dealing with problems like this—never. Let me pay that tribute to them. Therefore I decided that this avoided all investigation by officials, that it avoided all the bureaucracy that was complained of and that led us as a Government to the next step. What were to be the functions of the Commission? Now the Government take the view unanimously, as a fixed policy, that it is our duty to encourage in every way we can self-government in industry wherever we can, but where we cannot, not to leave these people, unprotected.
  Viscountess Astor: Against being sweated.
  Mr. Bevin: I have not used that phrase.
  Viscountess Astor: I have.
  Mr. Bevin: I say, not to leave them unprotected and without an opportunity of properly dealing with their conditions. Therefore the first duty is to ascertain how far wages regulation by joint agreements exists, and, believe me, they do exist. They exist even in this industry. [HON. MEMBERS: "Of course they do."] In some cases they existed, I found out, on one side, but I am referring to joint agreements. The first thing then is to ascertain what machinery exists. Secondly, they have to find out, where there is imperfect machinery, how it can be perfected. If they make a recommendation, the Minister adopts it and tries to carry out their recommendation, but if their recommendation is not successful, he can refer the matter back again for further inquiry. We desire that this Commission should be a long-term body in touch with the whole industry and
  1204
  enabled to make recommendations on matters affecting the good of the industry, including the welfare of the people employed in it. This can be done at the request of the industry itself or of the Government, quite apart from wages or conditions.
  The procedure, I think, is most cautious. The first thing the Commission have to do—and I must confess that I have some sympathy with the Amendment that is not to be called—before recommending a wages board is to make an investigation, and they must publish notice of their intention. Then they must consider the representations made by all interested parties and must make the further inquiries which they consider necessary following such representations. It has been said that this is a hole-and-corner Commission, and I think I ought to explain what the procedure is to be. Powers exist, as will be seen in the Bill, for the Commission to decide their own procedure. In that I have followed precisely the procedure laid down under the national arbitration machinery. There is the same kind of Clause. One of the striking things about the proceedings of the National Arbitration Tribunal and the Industrial Court, both of which have power to hear in public if they so desire, is that in 999 cases out of 1,000 all parties prefer, when coming Jo grips with the problem, that the proceedings should be in private. That has been the historical experience for many years. I have taken part in a few public inquiries; the great docks inquiry in public was enough. Nobody asked for such a thing again. Even the railways agreed that their business should be carried on in private. I have learned from long experience that if you are trying to develop a-service and build up mutual relationship, the less playing to the gallery there is the better for all concerned. Therefore, I have left it entirely to the Commission. Who can complain of procedure of that kind? The same thing applies to the wages board machinery.
  From a study of the development of this industry I have been impressed with its very wide range. Seasonal conditions probably require different treatment from the luxury hotels or public houses or tea shops, and the Commission can hear and discuss the views of all sections and can adapt the machinery to the requirements of the different sections of the trade. The

  1205
  Bill also provides for a variety of forms of wage agreements and conditions to be devised and enables the industry to co-ordinate recommendations on a wide range of subjects. That brings me to the problem of training. A restudy and a redevelopment of training are needed because of the opportunities offered for employment, bearing in mind our industrial and food position after the war. Who can say to young men or young women, "Come in and go in for training" when one does not know how much he or she will receive? There may be tips, 10s. or 11s. a week, floor money or a percentage on sales. An hon. Member of this House, when looking ahead for his boy or girl at some profession or service, will ask, "What are the chances?" How can this be done unless there is some sort of standard? I believe there is a great opening for people in the catering industry, because communal feeding will be one of the great services for the people of this country in the future.
  May I turn to another important problem? The Commission and wages boards can look at the question of accommodation. I said that I would throw no mud, and I will not, but I have been in this business. I helped to build one of the greatest tourist organisations in this country—the Workers' Travel Association—and I have seen this thing from the inside. I believe that it is the duty of the local authorities or the industry, particularly where seasonal trade is concerned, by pooling, to provide proper accommodation for the staffs that help the industry through the season. Why should a person have to be crowded into uncomfortable surroundings? To a large extent my sympathy is with the people who are pressed on both sides—to find accommodation for the visitor and to find accommodation for the staff. This question must be reduced to a scientific form of welfare. Another thing I am keen about and which I shall ask the Commission to deal with is that I object to people from other countries coming here and taking our men's jobs. It will be wise to have a properly built-up organisation in this country, and I know it can be done. I have talked to Swiss people about this They are among the best hoteliers in the world, and they would be perfectly willing to enter into a proper reciprocal arrangement. Why should not this matter be organised on a proper footing
  1206
  in both countries? They have something to learn from us. They may even learn to read our French menus. I am anxious that both welfare and training should be lifted on to a higher plane.
  In the Services we have had amazing success. In the Army alone we have over 100,000 men and women trained in catering. We are indebted to the late Member for Harrow (Sir Isidore Salmon) for laying the foundations. I think he did magnificent work. It would be worth the while of hon. Members to see the school which was redeveloped on his advice. There are other schools about the country, many of which will not be wanted for war purposes at the end of the war. But I do not want to see them thrown away. The equipment is there, everything is there.
  I have talked to many of these men in the Services, and they are looking forward to coming back and finding an opportunity in this trade which they have learned in the Services, as indeed they are in other trades. We are indebted to the London County Council for its magnificent school at Vincent Square. Many of the leading caterers in the country have had their training there. I want to see that developed and supported in many ways. I do not want to see this training connected up with the relief of unemployment. I want to see it built up as a business and a profession, and not a relief from something. No one knows better than my predecessor what great difficulty there was in selection when it was purely a question of relief from unemployment. That is not the way to train people; you do not get the right temperament, and you do not get the right people in that way, and very often in the end you get disappointment.
  Let me deal now with the scope of the Bill. Within the scope of the Bill we have included all forms of employment associated with catering and lodging in so far as they are distinguishable. One complaint in the case put before the court was that we had left lodging out of the scope originally. In this case I have met the point by putting it in, so that at least I have removed the argument that was before the court on that occasion. We have aimed at a simple definition in general terms, and we are leaving it to the Commission and the wages boards to work it out precisely. We have included non-profit making voluntary organisations

  1207
  as well as businesses, so that whether it be a club or a voluntary organisation, or whatever it may be, it will not be taken out of the wage levels. Let all the other things operate for their mutual benefit, but maintain the wage levels. I thought that by this step I would remove a grievance between club and pub that has gone on for so long, as far as wages are concerned. Therefore, wherever the people are working they will be given a right to properly regulated conditions. That is the basis of the Bill.
  If I may refer to the Clauses, Clause I deals with the Commission and its scope, and the first Schedule deals with the Commission in detail. It is proposed that this Commission should be composed of independent and impartial persons, persons who, I believe, can make to the Minister a proper report. There will be no civil servant on it. I hope that is a complete answer to all that has been said in the Press about the Commission. They will be people, with experience of joint industrial bodies, and so on, who will be selected because of their ability, as the Government usually select people for Commissions. There may be a Scotsman upon it—I do not know, but I was publicly asked that question.
  Clause 2 sets out the general functions of the Commission. Clause 3 sets out the particular functions of the Commission as regards the wage regulation machinery that is agreed upon. Clause 4 deals with recommendations for wages boards and makes adequate provision for inquiry and representation. Clause 5 gives the Commission power to recommend a variation or abolition of a wages board. I would like to dwell on that for a moment. If you start off with a wages board and it develops into a self-governing section of the trade quite satisfactorily, it is open for the section to come back and ask for the legal machinery to be taken away. It all depends upon whether the agreements can be enforced by the parties or not.
  With regard to Clause 6, I have noted in one newspaper that I am supposed, under this Clause, to be taking control even of the menu—of everything. It is surprising how ludicrous some of these people can become. I really cannot understand why they write—I was going to descend to a word that I used outside,
  1208
  but I leave the House to guess it. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is on the menu."] I do sometimes go to the House of Commons dining room and ask the waiter for a political lunch; he always knows what I want. Under Clause 6 I have tried to incorporate in two words all the recommendations that were issued by the Government in 1917. The document in question is H.Q.7A, and I would be quite willing to circulate it. In that document there were model suggestions as to the constitution and functions of joint industrial councils and machinery. In the Bill I had to find a short term, so I used the words "efficiency and development" of the industry. Does anybody seriously object to a wages board being able to discuss matters affecting mutual interest, the efficiency of their own services, their improvement, and the enhancement of the position of the industry? That is one of the fundamental things in the joint machinery to be found in nearly every joint industrial council in the country. I have expressed it as shortly as I could. I am not interfering with management—if that is what has worried people—or anything of that kind. A wages board can make joint representations on matters which they regard as contributing to the end in view.
  Clause 7 deals with the functions of the wages boards. They have to fix remuneration, meals and rest intervals We regard this as vital. Any of us who have been knocking about hotels for the last 30 years must have been a little conscience-stricken when the girl who comes with breakfast is the same girl as has been waiting on one all hours of the night. The unorganised arrangements for rest periods in that industry are not good, and I do not believe anybody in the trade can really defend them. All of us are conscious of this. As to holidays, that is a principle generally accepted by the House; and in the same way, notice has to be given and representations to be made, which is in keeping with the trade board machinery.
  In Clause 9 we have tried to get over some very vexed problems. One of them is payment in kind. We have left it to the boards to fix the wages and what may be the balance in kind, but they can also say what the kind is to be. This business of paying wages in food or lodging, when the food and lodging may

  1209
  be anything, is not fair. This is one of the worst forms of competition between the good and the bad employer. In order that the value may be laid down, the boards will have power to deal with this. They will also deal with the question of tips. I hate tips. But it is no good flying in the face of it. The Board will have power to deal with it, argue it out and make recommendations. It will probably differ in different branches of the trade. But there must be a wage. As to how that wage is made up, the Board will say, but there must be a wage at the end of the week. That, I think, is fundamental. In Clause 16 the Bill applies to civilian employees of the Crown as it applies to other workers, so that it is an all-round Bill.
  I should like to make a few references to the industry itself. I claim that the catering industry is dependent upon the productive industries for its success. The prosperity of this great trade depends upon the ability of science, management and workers to improve the standard of living generally of the general community. That is where it must find its force and support. Large sums of money will be spent on organised leisure—hundreds of millions a year—and I think that industry, which has to provide that money in the first instance, is entitled to an adequate return from these great services. The Government take the view that a good wage structure is a spur to efficiency, and I believe every man in business will accept that, especially if it is a good wage structure. A good organised wage structure does another thing which makes some return in its demand of other industries. There may be a demand for all kinds of light products and labour-saving machinery of one kind or another, and I hope it will come soon. If there is one service where the drudgery ought to be wiped out, it is this. In some places conditions are not good. No one can defend them. I want to see development which will attract enterprise and opportunity and capital, for I believe there is a great opportunity awaiting it in this direction. No one could make a better Conservative speech than that.
  Then again I think we ought to have a better return in the health of the people. I propose concurrently with wages development to ask the Commission to study several other problems. I believe it can help in the rehabilitation of the industry
  1210
  quickly at the end of the war. I believe it can help by collecting information and knowledge as to lines of development. I believe it can help in the question of priority, and I further believe it can help in a very vexed problem which has baffled us all up to now and on which we must get put right, and that is the staggering of holidays. We cannot get this catering service right, particularly in seaside and holiday centres, unless we solve the problem of the staggering of holidays. That brings in a study of university procedure. It has nothing to do with trade at all. The universities will have to adapt themselves. We cannot have all the examinations in June. If we can get a review of the problem by the Commission, I believe it will help the industry considerably.
  Fun has been made in part of the Press of references to tourist traffic. Britain has something to sell. She is war-scarred. None of us can meet people from overseas without recognising that the ordinary British folk are people they want to meet. They want to see the people who stood up to it. Why should they not? I believe there is a magnet of attraction in the country, but it has to be organised, facilities have to be developed, and who knows how much it can contribute to peace if others know us better than they now do? Who knows what the potentiality of it all is? To me it is not a joke but an opportunity which should be developed to the full. The Government have looked at this business as they are looking at every other business. Whatever one's views about social security may be, man cannot live by Beveridge alone. But I will leave that for another time.
  There were about 500,000 employed in this service before the war. You cannot solve mass unemployment by any panacea. You have to look over the whole field and see where you can create opportunities. In the study of this problem we have been looking over the field, and we believe we can double, if not treble, pre-war possibilities of employment. Is that a thing to reject on the narrow footing that you do not like wage regulation? I appeal to the House to take a bigger view and recognise that it is not the idiosyncrasy, the mulishness or the stupidity of the Minister of Labour that is responsible for this. It is a Bill small in character, but great in potentialities,

  1211
  backed by the united decision of the National Cabinet.
  Sir Douglas Hacking: I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add:
  "this House, whilst willing to support any measure necessary for the prosecution of the war and to give favourable consideration to any other measures which after impartial examination have won a general measure of agreement, cannot approve a Bill which, as a whole, fulfils neither of these requirements and so involves a breach of the undertaking given to this House on 12th November, 1942, regarding the introduction of controversial legislation."
  If ever I have had any doubt about the justice of moving this Amendment, my doubt has been completely set at rest by the speech that has just been delivered. I am engaged in a distasteful task, distasteful because I realise that I am in opposition to many of my hon. and right hon. Friends with whom I have worked and whom I hope I have assisted in days past, but I feel it my duty not only to my own conscience but to the House that I should take up this attitude and come out into the field of controversy. The Prime Minister once spoke of the corrective value of a growl from the Tory benches. I would point out that there is frequently something that follows a growl, and sometimes it is the attacker who gets off better than the attacked. I should like at the first opportunity to make it clear that this is a domestic issue, and it certainly does not affect in the slightest my determination, and I believe that of my hon. Friends who are supporting me, one iota to give every support I can to the Government in their desire and their work connected with bringing the war to a successful conclusion. I was glad to hear the Minister say he was not going to talk about sweated conditions. I take it that by that he means that he does not attempt to assert sweated conditions exist in these industries. That, I think, is an answer to the right hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris), who unfortunately asked a question on Thursday. [Interruption.] I should certainly desire to have an inquiry before I made an assertion of that kind.
  What, then, is the nature of our opposition? Shortly, it is based on a matter
  1212
  of principle. The difference between the right hon. Gentleman's views, political views if you like, and those of my friends and myself is that he would desire to interfere with private enterprise in any circumstances, while I would say you should never interfere with private enterprise until you have proved that it is not doing its job. Once it was proved after an impartial inquiry that this industry was working under bad conditions, I say without any hesitation—and here again I am speaking for my friends—that we would withdraw our opposition to any Bill which would put matters right. There has been a great deal of secrecy and haste in connection with the introduction of this Bill. The trade was told last September that it had to accept the provisions of the Bill.
  Viscountess Astor: What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by "the trade"?
  Sir D. Hacking: The trade which the right hon. Gentleman is dealing with. The right hon. Gentleman sent for members of the trade whom he obviously thought were concerned with this Bill and told them in September that they would, generally speaking, have to accept its provisions.
  Viscountess Astor: I do not know what the right hon. Gentleman means by "the trade." There are the catering trade, the drink trade and all sorts of trades. Which of these trades is the right hon. Gentleman referring to?
  Sir D. Hacking: The catering trades were sent for by the Minister. He was the judge as to whom he should invite, and he invited representatives of the catering trade. I do not know who was there, but that was at the discretion of the Minister. He told them they would have to accept the terms of the Bill. No one else had to know. Everything had to be done in secrecy. I would like to know why the Bill was not advertised in the King's Speech. It was decided upon a long time before anyone thought what should be contained in that Speech. Why was a public investigation refused? I pressed for a public investigation months ago. It could have been over by this time. Why was a Select Committee refused? Why has there been so much hurry to bring on the Second Reading, and why has so little time been given for its discussion? I read last night in

  1213
  the "Star," a paper which does not generally support my views:
  "This is part of a bold measure of post-war reconstruction likely to affect the lives of every man, woman and child in the country."
  Yet on the Second Reading of a Measure which concerns the lives of every man, woman and child in this country the Government are allowing us about 3½ hours apart from the speeches which will be made by Ministers. All this secrecy, all this haste point only to one thing—the Minister is afraid of public opinion.
  Sir Frank Sanderson: Has my right hon. Friend read what the "Financial News" says this morning, that this is the development of a great new industry?
  Sir D. Hacking: There is no necessity for me to take the "Financial News." The Minister of Labour has told us that he has not any up-to-date statistics regarding wage conditions. We who are opposed to the Bill do not profess to know what the conditions are in this great and complicated industry. The Minister quoted something from Sir Arthur Colefax's Report made in 1931, but he did not say that Sir Arthur Colefax stated that, generally speaking, the conditions in the industry were satisfactory. I maintain that since that time there have been great improvements in the industry and that if the impartial investigator in 1931 said that conditions were then, generally speaking, good, they are better now. At any rate it is worth while having an inquiry before we castigate this industry for not doing its job.
  I turn to the Bill. Powers are placed in the hands of one man not only to control and regulate wages, but also, in accordance with the Title of the Bill, to
  "make provision for regulating the…efficiency and development of the industries in which"
  the workers are employed.
  Mr. Evelyn Walkden: It is necessary, too.
  Sir D. Hacking: It is not necessary to do these things unless you know it is necessary. The right hon. Gentleman will interfere with private enterprise. It is one of his principles to do so, but it is not ours. It is not our principle to interfere with private enterprise unless we know it is necessary.
  Viscountess Astor: Does not the right hon. Gentleman remember that in 1920 we found that in the catering trade girls were working for 10 and 12 hours a day for 5s. a week and that even then there was opposition against looking into it? You have to interfere with private enterprise when it is unorganised and sweating.
  Sir D. Hacking: My noble Friend has made use of the word "sweating." She has no right to use that word. The Minister himself does not say that this is a sweated industry, and he knows more about it even than the noble Lady. Powers are taken in the Bill outside the questions of wages and conditions of employment. The Minister has said that he is not going to interfere with the management. How do we know he is not? How do we know that his successor will not interfere with management? We do know that within the terms of the Bill the Minister is empowered to interfere, and that is what we object to.
  There was one interesting omission from the Minister's speech. He never told us what support he had had from either employers or employees in this great industry. We all know what the employers think about it, and there is no reason why they should not express their views. What about the employees? My name has been closely associated with this Bill and this opposition for the last few months. My name has appeared not only in the newspapers but in all the trade papers which go to hotels, boarding houses and lodging houses. I have, however, up to yesterday morning had only one letter of protest saying that I was doing the wrong thing. By this morning I am sorry to have to tell the House that that number has been increased by 100 per cent., and I have received a second appeal against the Bill. [Interruption.] I am glad to have these interruptions, because they show that the matter is controversial. The more interruptions I can have, the more I shall like it, but unfortunately they occupy time.
  Mr. Mathers: Can we be told the number of letters the right hon. Gentleman has had supporting his attitude?
  Sir D. Hacking: If the hon. Gentleman means from employees, the absence of letters proves that they are not interested in this. I can say that I have had as

  1215
  many letters from employees in support of my action as I have had from those opposing it. That is surely proof that they are not interested in the Bill. They are happy to be as they are.
  The Minister says that he will make inquiry and that the method of inquiry is incorporated in the Bill. What is that inquiry? Is it impartial? Each individual member of the Commission which is to be set up will be appointed by the right hon. Gentleman. He pays every member either by fees or by salary. When a Report is issued by the Commission, or the wages board it goes to the Minister. If he does not like the recommendation, he sends it back to the Commission or to the wages board. In fact the whole power is left in the hands of the Minister. Some people say that there as safeguards in the Bill. I say that the Minister has autocratic power and that we are provided with what are in no sense safeguards. The Minister sets up the Commission without reference to Parliament. He does not even submit the names of the members in the form of an Order so that if necessary we can turn it down. The Commission recommends to the Minister a wages board by means of an Order. The Commission asks the Minister whether he will set up a wages board in any section of the industry. If he agrees, an Order is issued, and that Order or any variation of it has to be laid on the Table of the House. No other Orders are laid in connection with this Bill. What really is the value of laying Orders on the Table? I have here a list of Orders which are required by Statute to be laid on the Table for an appointed number of days which are still unexpired. There are 150 of them. That is not really very much of a safeguard. The laying of this Order affects only Clauses 4 and 5 of the Bill. There are no other Orders which have to be laid on the Table. Parliament has no control over any Orders that are made, not even on wages regulation Orders. Clause 7, Sub-section (4), of the Bill says:
  "On receiving any wages regulation proposals, the Minister shall make an order (hereafter in this Act referred to as a 'wages regulation order') giving effect to the proposals as from such date as may be specified in the order."
  In Clause 15 we see that the only Orders which the Minister has to lay on the Table are those in connection with Clauses 4
  1216
  and 5. Apart from those, the House loses complete control immediately the Bill is passed. I have been led astray by the House so much already that I have taken up more time than I anticipated. I will, therefore, pass over the question of who are included in the Bill. It is clear to my reading that every undertaking, including an ordinary domestic establishment, is included in the terms of the Bill. I am certain that my house will be included.
  Mr. Bevin: That is not so.
  Sir D. Hacking: The right hon. Gentleman may say that it is not so, but I will read the Bill and let others say whether I am right. Those who are to be included in the operations of the Bill are:
  "All those employed in any undertaking or part of an undertaking which consists wholly or mainly in the carrying on (whether for profit or not)…of the provision of living accommodation for guests or lodgers."
  A great deal depends upon the definition of "undertaking." There is a Clause dealing with definition which reads:
  "In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, the expression 'undertaking' includes any business, whether carried on by way of trade or not, and the activities of any body of persons, whether corporate or unincorporated."
  I maintain that if I have in my house paying guests, my wife and I are a body corporate or unincorporate, and that it is possible for an interpretation to be placed on this Measure which would make domestic houses come under its provision; but I understand that that position is going to be clarified, because an hon. Member has put down an Amendment to bring in private households, and then there will be an opportunity definitely to clear up the matter.
  Then there is the inspectorate. This inspectorate will be intolerable. [Laughter.] It is all very well for hon. Gentlemen to laugh. If they were connected with an important industry, to which tribute has been paid by the right hon. Gentleman, they would get a little tired of regulations and inspectors. Unless the necessity is proved, we have no right to add to the difficulties under which they work. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House suggested that we should amend the Bill in Committee. If we had to amend it so as to give some of us satisfaction, there would be nothing left of its structure. Even the Short Title

  1217
  is a little misleading. I maintain that it is better to scrap this monster of bureaucratic autocracy and bring in something that is more reasonable.
  What did the Minister say in introducing the Measure? He brushed aside the argument that the Bill is controversial by saying, "I do not consider it is controversial in the party sense." "He" does not consider this is controversial. This pledge to the House, however we interpret it, was given by the Leader of the House, and I believe that it is the duty of the Leader of the House, if this pledge is disputed, to give his explanation. If the right hon. Gentleman is going to take over the duties of Leader of the House, why should he not answer for the Secretary of State for War and for other Government Departments? We look to the Leader of the House to satisfy us in regard to a pledge that was given by the Leader of the House. The right hon. Gentleman, I was glad to hear, advocated the Trade Boards Act. He wishes his opponents had read the Trade Boards Act. I have, and one of its provisions is that it gives an impartial and public inquiry, which is not provided for in this Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "Not in every case."] Not if there is agreement, but if either the employers or the employees object, there is to be a public and impartial inquiry.
  Mr. E. Walkden: Ninety-nine out of 100 employers like the trade boards.
  Sir D. Hacking: The point is that there is an inquiry. In order to justify this Bill, the right hon. Gentleman commends other Acts of Parliament; most of his speech was referring to other Acts of Parliament, but we are dealing with this Bill and not with past Acts of Parliament. He also applauded the joint industrial councils. He must know that already application has been made from sections of the catering industry for inclusion under the Trade Boards Act. Why has he not approved of it?
  Mr. Bevin: I should like to know which section of the catering trade ever asked me to include it under the Trade Boards Act. I do not remember that.
  Sir D. Hacking: The right hon. Gentleman probably knows that a section of the catering industry which has a joint industrial council has made application—
  Mr. Bevin: What for?
  Sir D. Hacking: To come under the Trade Boards Act. The right hon. Gentleman is probably playing with words. May I ask whether he has received an application from sections of the catering trade which has been refused by him or postponed by him?
  Mr. Bevin: I should like to help my right hon. Friend. I had an application from a small section of the catering trade to have their people tied under the Essential Work Order, but not under the Trade Boards Act.
  Sir D. Hacking: The right hon. Gentleman made a great point about the Essential Work Order. He said that he must have these joint industrial councils and these organisations before he could direct anybody under the Essential Work Order, and then when somebody makes application to come into an organisation such as he desires, in order to give him the opportunity of knowing the wages in the industry, he refuses to consider it.
  Mr. E. Walkden: Is it not true that you mean the catering industry?
  Sir D. Hacking: I said the catering industry. It is concerned with canteens, I turn now to the Amendment. We promise in that Amendment to give support to any measures which are necessary for the prosecution of the war. Will this Bill shorten the war by one day? My opinion is that it will not shorten the war. The right hon. Gentleman says that it will, that he must have the Bill for war purposes. If the Prime Minister will tell us that he wishes to have this Bill in order to help him to win this war we will let him have it, providing it is for the period of the war only. The right hon. Gentleman knows he can have it for the period of the war, but that does not satisfy him. In the meantime, an important inquiry could be held which would help the House to come to a decision regarding post-war reconstruction. There is no hurry for this Measure so far as after the war is concerned. By means of an inquiry we might arrive at a general measure of agreement which would enable us to accept legislation for the post-war period. Surely that is a reasonable attitude. If this Bill is urgent for war purposes, powers will be granted at once. Otherwise, let us examine the facts before making a permanent and a revolutionary

  1219
  change. Our proposals are not only reasonable but in accordance with the pledge given to this House. What is the true version of this pledge? On 12th November the Leader of the House said that private Members' Bills might arouse acute political controversy and that he could not even allow special days to be set aside for private Members' Business in addition to the days in which we normally sit. The reason, he said, was the controversy that might be aroused. May I quote from the statement made by the present Minister of Aircraft Production:
  "It has been suggested in some quarters that possibly a special day might be set aside for Private Members' Business in addition to the days on which we sit. This matter has already received the careful consideration of the Government, but they see great difficulties in any such arrangement. First, there is the difficulty of the subject matter raising controversial issues of a kind which might divide the unity of the House."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th November, 1942; col. 63, Vol. 385.]
  On 12th November it was a bad thing to divide the unity of the House, but today it is in order for the Government to bring forward a Bill which does definitely divide the unity of the House, not only divides that unity so far as parties are concerned, but divides the unity of one party in this House. We private Members gave up our right to introduce controversial legislation on the clear understanding that the Government would do likewise. On 12th November the Government asked for the unity of the House. Now they apparently claim complete freedom to introduce legislation which they know, and have known for a long time, would definitely cause disunity. It has been said that the Government have a right to decide what is controversial. Let me quote once more. When the Leader of the House was dealing with Bills which were not connected with the effective prosecution of the war, he said:
  "It must be for the Government to decide…whether it is a Measure which in the belief of the Government it is necessary to bring before the House because there is that general measure of agreement on which action can satisfactorily be based."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th November, 1942; col. 83, Vol. 385.]
  The measure of agreement must come first. Then it can be followed by legislation, but there is no general agreement here.
  Mr. Mander: Is the Beveridge Report controversial?
  Sir D. Hacking: We are not dealing with the Beveridge Report but with this Bill. Perhaps the hon. Member is a little ahead of the time. I do not think that Bill has yet been printed. I ask with sincerity, Did the Government believe that this Bill was necessary because there was a general measure of agreement? That is the pledge The Government knew in fact that 200 Members were opposed to the introduction of this Bill in the absence of prior inquiry, and in those circumstances could not possibly believe that there was a general measure of agreement. Consequently they had no right to introduce the Bill without first submitting the proposal to an impartial investigation and by so doing trying to obtain a measure of agreement. Do the Government seriously believe that they would have got that Motion to take away the time of private Members had it been known that this House was to have no say whatsoever in what was or was not controversial? Let them make it plain next time that the Government are to be the sole judges and that the House is to be completely impotent, and I say without the slightest hesitation that our rights will not be given up quite so readily again. I say deliberately that the Government, at the dictation of one man, have broken faith with the House.
  I am surprised and I am shocked at the weakness in this matter of certain of my colleagues in the Government. With confidence, I invite all those who believe in the sanctity of an undertaking and who abbor the breaking of a solemn pledge to accompany me into the Division Lobby on this occasion.
  Mr. Montague: The Bill has the unanimous support of the Labour Party, not as a tribute to perfection, for it is a compromise—it has, of course, the logical disadvantages of a compromise—but because it is a workable and practicable attempt to place a large, important and honourable industry to some degree upon a footing of order and self-respect such as has been obtained by other industries that have accepted the principle of negotiation, with appropriate machinery, coupled with State authority, in the enforcement of agreements, independent of individual action, in the courts. We support the Bill unanimously as a party, just as the Cabinet are unanimous in their

  1221
  presentation of the Bill. I use the words "some degree" because there is a point of criticism which is unavoidable, even as the cause is equally unavoidable. It is connected with the dual method in which wages boards are to be set up on the one hand, and private negotiation machinery, either established or improved, upon the other.
  I would draw the attention of the Government to the point that it may be desirable—I think it is desirable—in many cases that the recommendations of the wages boards should be considered not separately but in conjunction with other considerations such as the reactions of those recommendations, if they were implemented, upon the rest of the industry or upon other sections of the industry. There is need for co-ordination, but it is difficult from the text of the Bill to see how that co-ordination can be obtained without more explicit powers being given to the proposed Commission or Minister.
  One point or question has been touched upon by both the Minister of Labour and the mover of the Amendment. It is a very sore point, and it concerns the presentation of the Bill. At this moment it is necessary for me to make a comment upon the position and upon statements that have been made on the matter, because it is claimed that there is an infringement of an agreement that no controversial legislation shall be introduced during the period of the war—or during the period of the National Government if it lasts for any short time after the war. Perhaps it would be as well to examine the statement made by the then Leader of the House. He said:
  "We have now reached a stage at which it may be necessary for Parliament to consider legislation arising from or out of conditions created by the war"—
  This Measure arises from and out of conditions created by the war, as I shall show, and as, indeed, has been shown already to a large extent, in the course of the Debate.
  Sir D. Hacking: If there is a general measure of agreement.
  Mr. Montague: Just a moment—
  "on which there is a general measure of agreement."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th November, 1942; col. 40, Vol. 385.]
  It depends upon the interpretation of the word "general." There is a large measure of agreement not only in this House but
  1222
  in the country—certainly in the country. There is unanimous agreement upon the part of the Cabinet and upon the part of the Labour Party. As the Leader of the House said, the times are clearly inappropriate to bringing forward legislation of a character likely to arouse serious controversy between the political parties; well, the political parties are united, as parties, upon this issue. I do not know whether there are still 200 left of the cohort that was supposed to be opposing the Bill, but, in general, and the Division Lobby will show it, there is agreement for the principle of this Measure in this House as well as outside. Let me say at once that if that alleged agreement is to be interpreted as a section of the Conservative Party seem to interpret it, Members on this side of the House will have nothing at all to do with it.
  I will give my reasons for that statement. There is made out to be an antithesis between the word "consider" and the words "bring forward." We interpret the situation otherwise and claim the support of the Government. We had from the Minister of Aircraft Production as recently as Saturday last the following statement, in reference to legislation to be brought before this House while the war is being fought:
  "To wait until hostilities have ceased, until the binding force of the common danger is no longer present, is to miss the chance of common agreement…The war has developed for us many mechanisms for political and economic co-operation, many controls and much machinery of planning. These we have created because the call for efficiency has been held to override every special interest. This same spirit, this same stress on the supreme priority of the common weal, we must carry through the armistice and into the peace. Much that we have built up for purposes of war we can adapt quickly and easily to the needs of peace."
  The Labour Party entered this Government in order to help to win the war. It agreed upon an electoral truce and upon the principle that ordinary party strife should be avoided, but it did not contemplate a period of complete sterility. When hon. Members who are taking the line taken by the last speaker say that there should be no controversial legislation, what do they mean? That the only legislation to be brought before this House during the war shall be the legislation that suits them? Do they claim the right to determine—
  Major Gluckstein: Would not the hon. Member admit that this subject has been a matter of controversy for upwards of 20 years?
  Mr. Montague: And the claim is made now that the matter has been rushed. The hon. Member opposite said that the country and the House had not had time to consider the claim that there is a need for the proper organisation of this industry from a labour point of view.
  Major Gluckstein: Will the hon. Member answer my question?
  Mr. Montague: Just a minute. I am coming to the point that the hon. and gallant Member raises. I was saying that hon. Members are claiming the right to determine the character of legislative proposals and the rate of legislative progress. That claim is made at the moment when, if it is only in the faint streaks of dawn upon the horizon, that victory is held to be in sight, victory that will bring with it immense problems of demobilisation and rehabilitation. Those problems loom ahead. It is obvious that legislation of the important and vital nature to meet such problems, and create the conditions necessary to deal with the situation that will arise immediately after the war, is bound to be controversial, in the sense that some Members in this House, and some interests outside, will raise objection to them. I do not know that there is any reason to object to controversy so long as—we would rather put it in this fashion—controversy in this House is not hindering the war. That is rather a different point of view from that put forward by the right hon. Member who moved the Amendment.
  The Bill is a Government Bill, and all parties are agreed upon it, in the sense that it is regarded as belonging to the class of legislation which must be considered and undertaken if we are not to face a chaotic situation immediately the war is finished. It is a Government Bill, arising out of war conditions, to re-establish and develop on modern lines an industry which has before it prospects such as it has never had before. That claim is sufficient answer to the charge of breach of faith. In any event, it rests with this House. There must be a democratic decision. There is no desire—if there were, it could not be effective—and no attempt to force the hands of Members in the decision that we have to
  1224
  come to at the end of this Debate. In the minds of Members who are opposing the Measure, and of associations that have lobbied and circularised Members, the notion is that the catering industry only needs to wait until the end of the war to get back to its accustomed stride. From our point of view, the accustomed stride of large sections of the catering industry is not good enough. On some of the objections of hon. Members that we have not the right to use the word "sweated," I will comment in a few moments.
  Revolutionary changes have taken place in this industry as a result of the war. Hotels have been requisitioned, and restaurants and boarding houses have been closed down. Tens of thousands of men and women have been given a first-class training in the Forces and elsewhere at the country's expense. It is now calmly proposed to let those men and women loose upon an unorganised industry, with no guarantee of tolerable wages or tolerable conditions, and an industry which is facing vast expansion. They are to be left to the immediate exploitation of those people who are called the catering industry to-day. I should like to have heard that term "industry" defined better. The catering industry of to-day is going to be expanded more than 100 per cent. after the war. The conditions are entirely new. There is a magnificent chance of raising the standards of life in that industry, and there is a great deal that needs raising. A properly organised and efficient industry in the catering world would be able to absorb hundreds of thousands from war industries and the Forces.
  As I have said, the prospect is that there will be an industry of double pre-war size after the war is over. But for whose benefit is this to be done? Take the question that has been mentioned, the drive for holidays with pay. It is estimated that there will be thrown into the catering industry an additional £100,000,000 a year at least of new money coming out of the rest of industry at large. Then there is the expansion of civil aviation. It is anticipated that we shall obtain a lively tourist trade. I do not know what there is in that, but I would suggest that if we are to expect a tourist trade of any dimensions, in the interests of this country and its finances we have got to alter some of the conditions or some

  1225
  of the circumstances in this industry, since English cooking and service have come to be very largely a by-word.
  The employers in the catering world expect that all these advantages of this fostered development of the industry, with its chance of profit making, shall fall into their laps like ripe cherries, with no guarantee of tolerable wages and conditions. New highly trained workers are to come into the industry under those circumstances. The employers say, "Leave it to the industry," meaning them, meaning the status quo, meaning going back to the old conditions that existed before the war and which, in spite of the right hon. Member, disgraced large sections of the catering service. The catering industry must be reconstituted to meet new circumstances. Members and the interests to which I have referred take the line that control must go just like a stretched elastic when it is released. These tens of thousands of people who are to help to win expanded profits are to have no guarantee. This industry is not alone, or its representatives are not alone, in that particular attitude, for there is every evidence of private enterprise mustering. With the prospect of the end of the war, with victory coming, the cry is, and has been to-day, "Back to private enterprise." State interference, yes, on one side, but no State interference for the workers' interests. Demand State support, demand State money, but when a Bill is brought forward that will give a chance, by means of wages boards and this wages Commission, to guarantee decent conditions in an industry, then we have the bogy of State interference raised.
  The demand is made for a preliminary inquiry. The Incorporated Association of Purveyors of Light Refreshments say, in their circular to members:
  "We do not oppose this Bill because we do not believe in giving the best possible wages and conditions of employment to all our workers, but because we do not think that there should be State interference in the domestic affairs of any industry, unless it can first be shown not only that the normal methods of self-government in this respect do not exist, but that wages and conditions of employment are not satisfactory."
  Thai is very much like the kind of thing factory owners said 100 years ago in this country. They want an inquiry now, with half the industry closed down, with labour difficult to obtain, with the holiday catering industry or trade finished; and
  1226
  the fate of the industry is to be determined, when there is some slight advantage over the normal conditions of supply and demand for the workers in that industry, by a distorted picture drawn under such favourable conditions. There is no case against inquiry. But the Bill provides inquiry, inquiry directed to permanent conditions and itself permanently directed. That is a purpose of the Bill and the Commission and the wages board.
  The fact is that much of the trade, in spite of the right hon. Member, was a sweated industry before the war. Employees in seaside hotels and boarding houses worked double normal hours at miserable wages and depended upon the generosity of patrons to keep them off the dole as long as possible after the end of the season. Women were sent in large numbers to work day and night, to get what sleep they could in attics and overcrowded dormitories, and those in the kitchens and sculleries had no contact even with patrons. We say that if Whitley principles are good enough for craftsmen and civil servants, they are good enough for scullery maids and even for head waiters. I could provide figures which would keep this House interested for half a day about conditions even now in wartime with the law of supply and demand balanced in favour of labour at the present time. There is a restaurant at which Members of this House will dine to-night where work is carried on in these conditions. Wages for waitresses, 11s. a week, plus 5s. floor money, and 4½d. in the £ commission. Here is the case of a head porter in a large provincial hotel on regular night duty—40s. a week and food, and the work is 72 hours per week. We say that no industry can be efficient with these labour conditions, and they can be multiplied over and over again.
  Major Petherick: I am not saying that the hon. Gentleman is incorrect, but is that all they get? Do they get anything in tips, and, if so, how much?
  Mr. Montague: I will deal with the question of tips in a few moments. This is the scandal of the whole business, that these people should be exploited and have to live under these conditions because members of the public are expected, out of their generosity, to provide for them what the management refuses to provide. We are not satisfied with that condition,

  1227
  and I happen to know, in respect to the restaurant to which I have referred, that the tips paid to the waitresses really amount to very little, because people do not give so much to waitresses as they do to waiters, for some reason or other.
  Sir Alfred Beit: The same thing happens in the case of railway porters. I do not know whether the hon. Member has any objection to that?
  Mr. Montague: I have tremendous objection to the railway portering system, where railway porters with nominal wages simply have to scramble about for tips in order to make a living. I think the whole system is thoroughly disgraceful. Among the literature hon. Members have received there is one letter from Trust Houses, Limited, who, like the Light Refreshment Purveyors, profess their good will towards their workers. What they say is interesting. They say:
  "Let it be said at once that the principle of collective bargaining with organisations of employees is not here in question. What is in question is whether terms of employment shall be settled by agreements reached by free negotiation between employers and employed, whether individually or through representative organisations, and enforceable in the civil courts like other agreements, or by regulations of a statutory authority any breach of which would be a criminal offence."
  Nothing could be more ingenuous—or is it ingenious? In an industry so complicated as this industry and so unorganised, what is the use of talking about even collective bargaining, let alone individual negotiation? Free negotiation—civil courts—hon. Members' minds will go back to the 1890's, to the Shipping Federation, to Taff Vale. How can free negotiations apply to these seaside hotels and boarding houses to which I have referred, to semi-casual labour and virulent sweating, to dining rooms, cafes and expensive hotels alike, to coffee stalls and fried fish emporiums? What is the use of talking about civil courts with individual or group application to these unorganised crowds?
  But Trust Houses are interested very much in the small inns and country hotels, for all the world as if "Mine host" of historical romance had remained high and dry above the modern tendency to commercialisation, and as though these idyllic conditions represented any large proportion of the industry. There is one naive statement. They say:
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  "At busy times persons not normally employed in catering may be engaged by an innkeeper to lend such help as they can for such time as they are available and their services are needed, to the benefit of themselves, the innkeeper and the public using the inn; but arrangements of this kind, which are particularly convenient in country places, would become impracticable if rigid regulations had to be complied with."
  That paragraph states the case for the Bill. In an industry compelled to employ labour of a casual character, and where, they say:
  "The irregular demand for the various services offered necessitates interchange of functions of the staff, a porter helping to serve meals, a chambermaid helping in the kitchen, and so on, while in busy times the staff will work long hours, but this is off-set in quiet times when there is little for them to do."
  Such conditions cry out, not for rigid regulations. No one proposes interference with the management of industry; what they propose is interference with the management of labour against the interests of labour—not rigidity but adequate machinery to consider these very considerations in review, including, as admitted:
  "In many cases the remuneration of staff includes board and lodging, in some board but no lodging, in others partial board only, in others lodging but no board, and in others again board, or lodging, or both, for members of employees' families."
  My only comment is, What a field for exploitation? If these people do not protest too much and they are really so tenderly solicitous for the welfare of their workers, one asks, what are they afraid of? What is it that the right hon. Member is afraid of when he protests against inquiries into the conditions of the industry—because that is what the Clause he referred to means?
  Sir D. Hacking: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. I am in favour of a full inquiry before legislation takes place, in case legislation should then be found unnecessary. I do not want to waste the time of the House. If, as a result of inquiry, it is found that the conditions are bad, my opposition to any Bill to put matters right goes.
  Mr. Montague: The inquiry that the right hon. Member does not want—
  Sir D. Hacking: I do want it.
  Mr. Montague: If the right hon. Member will allow me. The inquiry that he

  1229
  does not want is an inquiry by officers appointed by the Ministry, who are to ask employees and employers what the conditions are and to call for wages sheets and other records which might be available.
  Sir D. Hacking: What we object to is an inquiry in secret.
  Mr. Montague: The right hon. Member does not want a real inquiry at all.
  Sir D. Hacking: I do want a real public inquiry, and not a hole-and-corner inquiry.
  Mr. Montague: I am aware of what the right hon. Member wants, and I have told him that you cannot get an adequate inquiry under present conditions. The Bill is required because it is necessary that at the end of this war, which may come quite shortly, there shall be an organised industry, capable of receiving 500,000 more workers, who expect to obtain the guarantee of reasonable conditions and decent wages. This Bill, after all, is generous enough to its opponents. It is bound to be a compromise under the circumstances. It is not so radical as all that. It is not so good, I am sure, as the Minister would like it to be; but it reflects the mean level of opinion in this House, and is the type of legislation which should be discussed and carried during war-time. What opponents of the Bill especially fear is Clause 6, Sub-section (3), which says:
  "In addition to the powers conferred on it by the subsequent provisions of this Act, any wages board shall have power to make such recommendations as it thinks fit for the consideration of any Government Department…"
  In the same Clause the words "efficiency and development" occur. That is described as telling the managements how to run their business. It is nothing of the kind. As the Minister has pointed out, it is a principle embodied in such Acts as the Trade Boards Act, 1918, and the Road Haulage Act, 1938, which has a section giving power to wages boards to give attention to questions such as staggering holidays, training staff, the need for hostel development and so forth, and to make recommendations to appropriate Government Departments. Why not? Unless it is argued that there is no common interest the provision is one of practical purpose. It has nothing to do with preventing managements from running their own businesses.
  1230
  There is a familiar note about this opposition. When I was at the Ministry of Aircraft Production I had a good deal to do with the initiation of the joint works committees—the production committees, as they are called now. Those committees are now in considerable swing, and highly successful, I believe. But what was said? It was said that management is management, and labour is labour—the implication being that "never the twain shall meet." But they do meet, and they meet successfully. I remember one big manufacturer stamping up and down my room, flinging his arms about, calling to high heaven to witness this attempt of the Government to take authority out of his hands and to place it in the hands of what he no doubt conceived of as industrial Soviets. "Let us manage," he said, "or get out; run the multitudinous business incarnadine yourselves, or let us do the job"—no doubt those were not his exact words. Believe it or not, after an hour, when we had got down to details, we had an agreed policy, and he was as violent in favour of the committees as before he had been hostile. The production at his works has been as successful as at any in the industry. Why should not the workers have the same right as the employers to negotiate, and to negotiate under proper conditions that can be enforced, concerning the wages and circumstances of their industry? The constitution of the wages boards will give the workers one-third of the representation. We are entitled to think that healthy, beneficial results will accrue, as they have in other industries where a progressive policy has been adopted. The core of the objection is that the Minister is to appoint officers to require information about wages and conditions, and the production of wages sheets and records. That again is reminiscent. I ask again, What does the industry, as it is called, fear from, not secrecy but the bringing-out into the open of the real conditions in the industry?
  Probably the most difficult of all problems in the administration of catering, certainly the one which has hindered reform in the past more than anything else, is the prevalence of the tipping system. I am aware that among favoured sections in the waiting and allied professions there are those who would not have the tipping system interfered with at any

  1231
  price. Perhaps there are personal, domestic advantages about an indeterminate basis of remuneration; I do not know. But there are no tips behind service doors, or for the ancillary industries at large. Our attitude to that, and I think the attitude of all decent persons, is that a principle of adjusting wages to prospective gratuities is thoroughly bad. Tipping is, in fact, a disgusting habit, a snobbish, even feudal, survival, delighted in by what Anthony Trollope called the "snobility." The Percy Brothers in their anecdotes spoke of the custom of giving money to servants in private houses as having got to an impossible pitch, such a pitch that a man could not dine with his father, brother, or personal friend unless he paid for his dinner twice as much as he had to pay at the best tavern in town. The practice was discouraged in the reign of Queen Anne but revived later, in more tolerable proportions. George Bernard Shaw said that no gentleman would offer another gentleman a tip for a personal service, or even a cheque for saving his life, but that he would do so if the beneficiary was no gentleman. That is the point that we have against the tipping system at large, and we should like to see the tipping system abolished. It is a humiliating system; and that is proved by what I have said, that no one with any decent sense of gentle manliness would apply it to the members of his own class.
  The system is industrially harmful, as well as being anti-social. Its object is either to subsidise wages, having precisely the effect of the Poor Law wage subsidies in the early part of the last century, or preferential service, or both. "To ensure promptitude," which is supposed to be the meaning of the word "tip," is an admission that the service, which in any decent and efficiently conducted industry should be universally good, is to be subject to scaling according to the expected degree of generosity. However, the system is recognised in this Bill. It is very difficult to deal with, and it is not interfered with except in so far as wages boards will be able to consider tipping when they are examining the situation in various sections of the industry for purposes of recommendation. It is not clear though upon what principle the so-called benefits and advantages are to be taken into account by the wages boards, how far that does apply to tipping, and in what
  1232
  sense and to what degree tipping is to be recognised. It would be useful to have some statement from the Minister on that aspect. In any event, it is undesirable that the value of this Measure should be impaired by an anomaly so flagrant, and the less advantaged grades of workers would welcome the substitution of a definite, adequate living standard. We support the Bill in principle, and shall support it in Committee, though we reserve the right to give it critical and meticulous examination in detail. I congratulate the Minister on having introduced it and on his determination to stand firm against sectional pressure, so that this long-delayed Measure of reform shall be brought within the possibility of discussion and decision by this House. It is one bit of the reconstruction which has been promised the world, no less by opponents of the Bill than by its friends.
  Sir Adam Maitland: I think it will be generally agreed that any Minister having the temerity to introduce legislation concerning wine or women is asking for trouble. Mobilisation of man- and woman-power in this country called for great courage, both in legislation and administration. No home has been unaffected by the Measures for which the right hon. Gentleman is largely responsible. From time to time authority was asked from this House to deal with those important questions. Some of them raised questions which were highly controversial. They were discussed, and the powers were granted to the Minister. The Minister was entrusted with very great powers, which he has exercised, affecting the lives of practically all the people of this country. His administration may be subject to cricitism, but I believe that on the whole, if we are fair, we will concede generally that he has successfully performed a very difficult task. Like us all, the right hon. Gentleman may have the defects of his qualities, perhaps and in greater measure he also has the qualities of his defects. I believe it would be churlish not to recognise the services that the right hon. Gentleman has rendered to our country in its hour of trial, and to discuss the Bill in that atmosphere of suspicion. Speaking as a Conservative—and in matters of this kind I do not think that one should be halfhearted—I say, frankly, that in my judgment the position of the right hon. Gentleman as an eminent Labour leader, having

  1233
  the confidence of the working classes, enabled him to carry out a duty in such a way as was impossible to the average Conservative Minister. I ask this question. In the light of that experience. Is it really fair to assume, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Sir D. Hacking) seemed to assume, that he or any successor will misuse any further powers which this Bill provides?
  The Amendment suggests a breach of an undertaking. There may be different views as to the undertaking to which my right hon. Friend referred. If he will refer once more to the application of the statement to which he referred he will find that the then Leader of the House made it clear that the Government must be responsible for deciding in each individual case the legislation they introduce. I am sure that that is right. The right hon. Gentleman may have made out a case, in logic and in reason, for the suggestion that here was a promise given to the House. He argues with reason and logic. I am reminded of the case of the young university student who had been drinking whisky and soda and who got up the next morning with a bad head. He decided, "This will not do." The next night he went on to brandy and soda and still the next morning the same result, and again he said, "This will not do." The third night he went on to gin and soda, and he still got up the next morning with a bad head. He said, "I must commune with myself and make an analytical examination and call in aid reason and logic." He said, "The first night, I took whisky and soda, the second night, brandy and soda, the third night gin and soda, and on each occasion, the same result. The common factor of my drinks was soda. Therefore, on grounds of logic and reason, I must henceforth eschew the soda." The right hon. Gentleman made out a good case, but I would further like to call in aid, in thinking about the situation which he presented, something of the Chinese philosophy in matters of this kind. We Western people are presumed to be guided, step by step, only by reason and by logic, but our gallant Allies the Chinese are rather different from us. They have not only to be satisfied that you are right in reason and in logic, but they are very anxious to know whether what is proposed is in accordance with human nature. Therefore they say, "Is what is proposed reasonable?"
  1234
  I ask my right hon. Friend, Is it reasonable of him to say that the Government of the day should be denied of the responsibility of introducing legislation which they think right and proper? The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister is perhaps one of the greatest controversialists of his day. It would be indeed a strange irony if the Government of which he is the head, because of some undertaking interpreted by Members in this way were denied the opportunity of introducing legislation because it was contentious or controversial, and went down in history as the timid Government who were too timid to introduce legislation in this House because it was controversial. If there has been any misapprehension about the undertaking which is thought to have been given, it should be cleared up at once. For myself, I believe that the Government cannot abrogate the responsibility for introducing legislation. While I believe in the utmost possible unity, there is one thing the people of this country will never forgive of Parliament, and that is, if they make no preparations to deal with post-war problems. However much we in this House may properly study and try to apprise ourselves of the problems in front of us, responsibility for initiative and legislation must rest with His Majesty's Government. I would say to them, Do not be afraid to introduce legislation which appears to be contentious and which may, in fact, be controversial if you are satisfied that it is in the best interests of the country.
  How can you differentiate in these matters? How can one differentiate in that precise kind of way which my right hon. Friend the Member for Chorley said? He said that if the Prime Minister will come down and tell this House that this Bill is wanted for war purposes the opposition and the opposition of my right hon. Friend will be withdrawn. There are matters directly concerned with the prosecution of the war about which there can be no controversy. There are other matters upon which it might be a question of opinion which are inescapable and arise out of war conditions, and it is upon these matters that the Government of to-day must exercise initiative and, if necessary, bring in legislation, even though it be controversial. I believe that legislation will be introduced that will bring in its train opposition and contention. This

  1235
  House would cease to be a House of Parliament if legislation was introduced and was permitted to go forward without controversy. The main opposition seems to settle round the question of a public and impartial inquiry before this particular legislation is introduced and a disinclination to accept the inquiry which is proposed under the Bill. That is really the main contention made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chorley. Is it really right to assume that a public inquiry would achieve a better purpose than a statutory Commission? Why is it assumed, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Chorley assumed, that the members of this statutory Commission are to be at the beck and call of the Minister or the Department?
  Captain Peter Macdonald: The Bill says so.
  Sir A. Maitland: It does not say so. The Bill says that a Commission should be appointed to investigate and report to the Minister.
  Captain Macdonald: And the Minister may refer back.
  Sir A. Maitland: Why are there this resentment and this suspicion? Hon. Gentlemen in all parts of the House have sat on Select and Joint Select Committees of the House, and no one has said that he is suspicious of them. They have been appointed by a Minister and have had to report.
  Sir D. Hacking: Is my hon. Friend asking me a question? If so, I want to reply to it. The fact is that a Committee of this House reports to the House. This particular Commission reports to the Minister, and the Minister can send back to the Commission anything he dislikes.
  Sir A. Maitland: That does not in the slightest vitiate my argument. Nobody would suggest before that Committee reports that it was not an impartial body. Members who sit on these Committees know that a committee regards itself as a fact-finding body. A committee has to ascertain the facts. What right have we to assume, we who are so dependent on Commissions of this kind and have been for years, and will be in the future, that a Commission statutorily appointed will be actuated only by the desire to do what the Minister or the Department think
  1236
  ought to be done? I do not believe that it is true. I do not think that it is true about the right hon. Gentleman's Department, and I do not think that it is true about his proposed Commission. The people who are appointed to these positions honourably discharge the duties to be fulfilled, quite apart from personalities, and they report upon the facts.
  A suggestion has been made that there is to be no responsibility in the industry itself for wages, which will be taken out of their control and placed into the hands of the Commission. That just is not true. What is the position? The Commission has to make impartial inquiry. I would remind hon. Friends who oppose this Measure that until these inquiries are made nothing can be done. It depends entirely upon the reliance you put on the Commission appointed by Ministers who are responsible to this House. A Commission is appointed. They make inquiries and, believing that machinery at present exists in a section of the industry into which they are inquiring, nothing is done. The Bill says that. If inadequate machinery exists, the Bill provides for authority to be taken to improve the inadequate organisation. Do not hon. Gentlemen in this House think that a good basic structure is the basis of every sound industry? The right hon. Gentleman the Minister said that it was a spur. I would go further and say that it is the basis of every sound industry. I fail to see the opposition of some of my hon. Friends with regard to this Bill. Their objections are ill-founded, and, as the Minister said in his speech, by this means you have been able to take steps to bring up the more laggard employers. Is it contended that there should be bad employers and that nothing should be done? Is it not right that good employment and good management should be encouraged?
  I fail to see why, with all the safeguards that the Bill gives, there should be the apprehension which has been raised in certain quarters. The success of our dealing with post-war problems in any industry will very materially depend upon the degree of organisation in that industry. For myself, I see in an unregulated industry only one alternative, and that is some degree of Government control. I say to my hon. Friends that I prefer that lesser of what they may regard as two evils. The opposition to this Bill is divided. Some of my hon.

  1237
  Friends think that the Bill attempts too much. My hon. and gallant Friend the Senior Burgess for Oxford University (Petty Officer Herbert) thinks that it is a piecemeal and half-hearted Measure, and I gather that it does not attempt half enough. Of all the literature and newspaper articles of one sort Or another, the leading article in "The Times" of 30th January was a moderate and fair summing-up of this Measure. On that day "The Times" said:
  "The Bill is the outcome of constructive thinking about catering both now and after the war and the contribution that it may make to industrial resettlement when the war is over. It is not a measure of arbitrary direction; it is designed to stimulate self-government in the different branches of the industry and collective effort to make the catering trades a developing national asset. The Commission which the Bill sets up will itself have no powers beyond those of recommendation; but its recommendations will be founded on carefully acquired knowledge."
  In the concluding sentence the leading article gave expression to the view that nothing could happen without investigation, and the safeguards at present to the setting-up of trade boards are in this Measure, and this Bill should rank as a genuine piece of post-war reconstruction. I believe that that is a fair summing-up. I am not perturbed that this has aroused controversy; it is all the better that these matters should arouse controversy, because they create interest. In view of the immediate post-war difficulties, it would be a bad thing if, on the occasion of the first piece of legislation dealing with post-war troubles, this Bill should be rejected. Therefore, on this and on many other grounds I propose to support the Bill.
  Captain Peter Macdonald: I rise to oppose this Bill and to support the Amendment so ably moved by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Sir D. Hacking). In doing so, I would like to make it perfectly clear at the outset, in case the charge pf vested interests should arise throughout the course of this Debate—as it is sure to do—that I have no financial interest, nor have I had any financial or any other interest in the hotel or catering industry. I have, however, for the last 20 years been associated with a constituency in which hotels, restaurants and catering have played a large part in the daily lives of the people and where millions of workers have spent their summer holidays. I have, therefore,
  1238
  had an opportunity of studying the problems of this industry and also the implications of this Bill.
  What are the problems of the hotel and catering industry in most parts of Britain to-day? The chief problem is that in many parts this industry no longer exists. In my own constituency, which is a defence area, hotels and restaurants have been closed since the beginning of the war. People have not been allowed to go to that area. Further, the people who are responsible for running these establishments, or whose daily lives have been wrapped up with this industry, are scattered to the four winds; many of them are serving with His Majesty's Forces both at home and overseas. In addition, I have had the opportunity and honour during the first two and a half years of this war of serving with fighter squadrons which were responsible for the defence of the coast of Britain from Yorkshire to the Isle of Wight, and, therefore, I have had the chance of seeing the appalling devastation and misery which have been caused to coastal areas by the war. It is a most melancholy sight indeed to see miles and miles of coast with hotels, restaurants and shops closed and boarded up and the beaches where children and others have spent happy holidays littered with barbed wire and land mines. If there was anything in this Bill that would relieve the problems of these people, I should be the last person to oppose it. I have tried repeatedly to obtain some relief for the people who have had their livelihood taken away from them through no fault of their own, people whose burdens of debt are piling up, people who are mostly in the bankruptcy court to-day and who want to be able to return to their industry. But so far I have had no support whatsoever from the Government, and there is nothing in this Bill which will relieve their burdens, although there is very much which will add to them.
  Captain C. S. Taylor: I take it that my hon. and gallant Friend means that he has had no support from the Government, not that he has had no support from private Members?
  Captain Macdonald: Yes. My hon. and gallant Friend has been in the same position. He and others who have supported me have tried to get the Government to recognise the problem and give some relief.
  Sir A. Beit: How can the burdens of these people be increased when they are not operating?
  Captain Macdonald: It is a question of their rates, which are being deferred and not relieved. The Chancellor of the Exchequer says he has given instructions to local authorities to defer rates in cases of proved hardship, but the burdens are still piling up. What these people want is some decision as to whether they are to be relieved of these rates altogether. The Chancellor and the Government will not agree to this. Further, properties are being damaged through non-use, not by enemy action. They are boarded up, and the furniture and equipment inside are deteriorating. There are many ways in which the livelihood of these people is being destroyed by the war, and so far the Government have shown no sign of relieving these burdens. By introducing this Bill they are adding to these burdens. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why? "] I will tell you why. I want to know why this Bill is being introduced at all at the present time, why wages are being dealt with while other aspects are being ignored? I am afraid that there is something very sinister about the way in which this Bill has been introduced, something extremely dishonest. When this Session started a pledge was given by the Leader of the House regarding controversial legislation. A Motion, headed by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Captain C. S. Taylor), other Members and myself, was On the Order Paper with regard to private Members' time. We were asked to withdraw that Motion after being told that we were to have a concession in that respect. The Leader of the House gave a definite pledge about the Government's attitude. We have heard from my right hon. Friend the Member for Chorley what that pledge is, and I will not repeat it, because it is on record. If my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham (Sir A. Maitland) thinks he is able to salve his conscience over that matter, I can assure him that certain members of the Government were worried about it for a long time. The only reason they have come to heel is because the Minister of Labour has cracked the whip and has brought them to heel, as he always does.
  Captain Poole: Is it not probably the case that it was the inability
  1240
  of the Minister to decide whether the Measure was controversial or not because he was not able accurately to assess how much retrogression there was among the Conservative ranks in the House?
  Captain Macdonald: It has nothing to do with ranks. I have heard opposition expressed from the Benches on which Members of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's party sit. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where."] Well, certainly on the Liberal Benches. I quite understand why the Minister of Labour wanted this Bill. There is nothing inconsistent about his wanting legislation of this kind, because it is the first step towards the nationalisation of one of the most difficult, most complicated and most individualistic industries in the country to-day. That is admitted. It is a long step towards the control, direction and management of that industry. The Minister of Labour has always been consistent. I recollect that in 1926 at the time of the general strike, he challenged the will of this House and the country in order to carry it through. What about the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Leader of the House? [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the Prime Minister?"] Yes, what about the Prime Minister? I think my right hon. Friend has been misled, and I will tell you why. The Prime Minister agreed that the Bill could be introduced because he had been told by the Minister of Labour that it was absolutely essential to the war effort. The Prime Minister, who is so busy dealing with other matters, leaves domestic affairs in the hands of the Leader of the House and other Ministers. I was informed that after he went abroad he was anxious to hear the other side of this question. The position was put to him in a letter, but the Prime Minister could never have seen that letter. This Bill has been rushed on to the Order Paper and put down for Second Reading before the Prime Minister had had an opportunity of hearing the other side, and I say again that there is something sinister about the way in which this Bill has been brought forward.
  Why was this Bill not mentioned in the King's Speech? At the beginning of the Session we all looked at Parliament's legislative programme, and there was no sign of this Bill. There were other Bills that were considered urgent because they were necessary for the prosecution of the

  1241
  war. Why has this Bill been given priority over those other Bills? Why is it being rushed through; why are we being allowed only one day for Second Reading? I do not want to take up too much time, because I know many other Members want to speak, but the Government, if they had shown any vestige of statesmanship in this matter, would have introduced a comprehensive Bill dealing with the real problems of the hotel and catering industry of this country. They would have introduced a Bill to deal with the rehabilitation of the industry, the question of financial assistance to the industry—which it must have in the shape of relief of burdens like rates—such things as priorities of labour and material, staggered holidays, licensing laws, wages boards and so forth. This Bill does none of those things. It does not deal with the anomalies in the licensing laws to which the Senior Burgess for Oxford University (Petty Officer Herbert) referred. There are many other things with which it does not deal. The Bill is brought in under a smokescreen and a camouflage of Service cooks and American tourists. I have seen a good deal of American tourists, and I have had some experience of Service cooks, especially during the last two years, and I cannot see Americans or anybody else flying to Britain in order to sample the cuisine of Army or Air Force cooks. I would not fly here to sample it; I might fly away from it, and a long way, too.
  I do not want to be controversial about this thing, but I do very strongly oppose the Measure and I shall vote against it. It gives no assistance to the industry, it places new burdens upon the industry, and it lives up to the title given to it by someone the other day—"All that, and Bevin too." To me it is an anachronism and it is introduced contrary to the very definite pledge given to the House at the beginning of the Session. I shall go into the Lobby and vote against the Bill, even if I am the only one to do so.
  Mr. Banfield: My only excuse for taking part in this Debate is that, as a result of experience over very many years, I know something about the labour side of the catering services and industry. The hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain Macdonald) asked what the Bill offers to hotels, restaurants, and boarding-house keepers. The hon. and gallant Member represents
  1242
  a place where I have spent my holidays from time to time, a place where there are many boarding houses and many decent people trying to get a living from them. What has happened there is that, as far as small boarding-house keepers are concerned, there has never been a living in the business for themselves or for anyone they employed. They have cut one another's throats in their anxiety to get hold of business somehow or other, men have worked their insides out during the season, they have sweated their wives and children and everybody they employed, and at the finish they have been very little better off. What this Bill may do, and what, in my opinion, it will do, is this. If the consultations take place as outlined in the Bill, there will be a chance for these people who work so hard to get a solid bottom into the business and they will at any rate get some reward for the labour they have put into it.
  Honestly, I am surprised to find opposition to this Bill. The Bill bears every sign of being a Cabinet compromise, every sign of having been watered down, as though the Government had said to the Minister of Labour, "For goodness' sake do not go too far to start with, let us be a bit cautious, let us have it guarded as much as possible." The Bill contains no revolutionary proposals. From the speeches I have heard against the Bill, one might think the Minister was bringing in a Bill to institute a new U.S.S.R. in this country the week after next. All the Bill does is to better the condition of the catering trade, for the first time. The hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight said, among other things, "Who asked for the Bill?" I have had some years of experience in trying to get some decency and order into the baking industry. During the years I have fought to get better conditions for operative bakers, every time I have come across employers they have said, "Our men have never asked for it; they are quite satisfied.' They used to tell me that the men would sooner stay in the bakehouse 14 hours a day than go home, because it was warmer in the bakehouse. But the fact is, of course, that people who have no protection are unable to speak for themselves.
  One point of importance that should be remembered is that, in my belief, as far as the confectionery side of the baking industry is concerned, there will be a tremendous development of what is known as

  1243
  the teashop trade. People are getting so minded that they go out more and more for their meals, and I am convinced that when the war is over there will be a tremendous development in dining and eating out. Many of these teashops are attached to bakers' shops. They have developed that side of the industry and—with all due respect to the great multiple combines which go down to the country and sneak all the trade of the country towns—I hope they will continue to do well, but I want to point out that it means there will be in future many thousands more girls employed in this class of catering. These girls are quite unprotected. It is easy to say that they ought to be organised, but to anybody who says that I reply, "You go out and do it." I have had 50 years of it and know that it is extremely difficult to organise them. What has happened in the past? Girls have been employed all hours. When people talk about good employers in the catering trade, whom do they mean? By good employers they mean those who will pay 2s. a week more than the worst sweaters in the trade—"I pay 2s. a week more than anybody else; I am the man who ought to have a medal."
  With regard to the argument that there has been no agitation, I charge the whole of the catering trade with deliberately doing all they possibly could, and can, to stifle any trade union organisation inside the industry. I charge them with that, and I am sure they cannot deny it if they speak truthfully. They have, blackmailed and victimised men. I have seen men discharged from the great catering trades in London after they have worked in a place for 20 or 30 years; I have seen them discharged and sent on to the street because they were told they could not work in the place if they had a trade union card. Men have gone on to the streets, and their wives and children have suffered, and it has nearly made me cry to think they had to suffer simply because these men had the guts as Englishmen to say they had the right to belong to a union. I say that the catering trade, the hotels, the restaurants, the big teashops in London and in the provinces, have done nothing to organise the trade as far as the workpeople are concerned, but have put every obstacle in the way.
  What do the opponents of the Bill propose? There is a demand for a public
  1244
  inquiry. I wrote to the Secretary of the Incorporation Association of Purveyors of Light Refreshment, and I said, "I notice that you want me to oppose this Bill, not because you are not prepared to give the best possible wages—" What do they mean by the best possible wages? In their eyes it may be is. 6d. a week. It may be anything or nothing. It is neither here nor there. These people have asked for some legislation in some form or other. They want a public inquiry. I wrote to the Secretary of this Association—I know him very well, we have had a good many battles in our time, and we are pretty good friends, and we can talk a bit plainly to each other—and I said, "Dear brother"—I call them brothers—"I notice that you want a public inquiry before anything is done. Well, you and I know very well that all that means is, 'Delay the thing as long as you possibly can; put it off.'" He wrote back and said, "You are altogether wrong," but, of course, he was writing officially when he wrote that. I am quite sure this demand for a public inquiry is not really genuine in spite of anything that may be said in support of it.
  But under the Bill there will be an inquiry and a chance for everybody to say what he wants. I speak as one who represents a trade that has been in the past shockingly overworked and my experience of the trade board in that industry—I thank the House for making it possible to have that trade board—is that the workpeople, for the first time, are getting paid for every hour of work they do and the employers are perfectly satisfied with the way the thing works. There is no complaint about it. Listening to the agitation against the Bill, anyone might think that somehing was going to happen that would make the catering trade different from any other trade. I will tell the House what the Bill might do. It might stop the influx of people from abroad who have been anxious to come here and work for nothing, or next to nothing. Hotel waiters and all sorts of people doing similar work have been shamefully exploited in that way. When I used to represent my organisation on the Continent, I talked to people in hotels in Switzerland, Italy and France, and I know that they were quite prepared to work for nothing to get here. I say that if you will make it worth while you will find as good cooks among Britishers as

  1245
  in any other nation, but our people have never been attracted either as cooks or waiters. There is something a little independent about the British character which causes waiting, in the way in which it is done at the moment, to have little appeal to men of an independent mind. They do not like it. They are prepared to give proper service, but it goes against their character to be so cringing and so dependent upon how much a person is going to put in their hands at the end of the meal.
  I am told that there is a considerable number of Conservative Members who intend to oppose the Second Reading of the Bill. Honestly, I regret that; I think they are making a complete mistake. I want to remind those hon. Members that they were returned to this House in the main by the votes of working men and women. They are not here to represent particular vested interests, and, although working men and women may deplore that they have sent them here, they did send them here to represent them, and therefore it is their duty to remember that, while employers have their rights and responsibilities, workpeople also have their rights and responsibilities, and it is their business to protect the rights of those who are weak against the strong. That is what the House exists for. It is what we are sent here for. If the right hon. Member for Chorley was representing the Lancashire weavers who sent him here, he would be in favour of this Bill. It would be most unfortunate if the opinion were to get about that some of the opposition to the Bill was not a matter of principle but of personality. The Minister of Labour is doing his job in a way that commands the respect of all right-thinking men and women, and I hardly think he should be made the victim of personal prejudice in some quarters. I hope that is not so. [Interruption.] The noble Lady does not go into the smoking room. It would be most unfortunate if such a thing were even to be whispered. Let us be straight and honest with one another. If there was ever a time to sink party politics, it is now. It would be far better for Conservative Members to bend their heads a little. If they do not, they will get them broken off by the force of the gale which they themselves have brought about. I hope that some of the opposition to the Bill will be withdrawn and
  1246
  that the good sense and feeling of the House will support it.
  Major Gluckstein: Notwithstanding the eloquent speech to which we have just listened, I intend to vote for the Amendment. I was glad to hear the Minister of Labour say he did not intend to begin hurling charges. If he has listened to the speeches of some of his supporters, he must have wished that someone would save him from his friends, because the Debate has developed into a full-dress attack by a number of Socialist Members on the catering trade. The hon. Members for West Islington (Mr. Montague) and Wednesbury (Mr. Banfield) made it abundantly clear that they regard this as a political question, and they have imported into the discussion a heat of controversy, which, of course, having regard to the history of the matter, is not unexpected. I am surprised that the Government should not have realised that the matter is so full of controversy, and has aroused so much feeling. Only a few days ago the right hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) talked about sweating in this industry. The "Daily Herald" yesterday, perhaps under the influence of its deputy chairman—[Interruption]—the Minister of Labour—[HON. MEMBERS: "He is not the deputy chairman."] It is in "Who's Who," because I looked it up.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): This is a matter of some importance. My hon. and gallant Friend's statement has been contradicted, and perhaps he had better withdraw it.
  Major Gluckstein: Of course, a Minister of the Crown cannot be the deputy chairman. I did not intend to say that, but that he had been deputy chairman. All I am saying is that the "Daily Herald" yesterday said that the Bill seeks to ensure better wages and conditions for the employees in the trade, and "The Times" on 17th September last said:
  "In the period before the war both the rates of wages and the general conditions of employment in large areas of catering were under suspicion of being as unsatisfactory as they were unregulated. The opponents of regulation have to show that the conditions were or are satisfactory and are likely to remain so or, if they cannot go so far as that, to state the objections to a form of regulation…. The first question to decide, however, is whether the catering industry satisfies the requirement that its conditions of employment shall be socially right."

  1247
  That seems to be a very novel form of British justice. It puts the onus on the persons charged of satisfying the persons making the accusation that they are not guilty of the offence charged. Of course, the catering trade, as such, as far as it is organised, strenuously resists these allegations and says they are untrue. I should go further and say that the people who make the allegations ought to prove them in detail. I cannot for the life of me understand, if the case against this industry is so strong, why, before we have any legislation at all, there should not be a public inquiry so that the matter can be fully discussed and ventilated. The stronger the case is, the more discredit will attach to the catering trade for having resisted these admirable proposals.
  Mr. Logan: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman tell me, in respect of his own particular trade, whether he has any wages board? Has anyone any right to come in and determine wages?
  Major Gluckstein: The learned Attorney-General will tell the hon. Member all about that and how the Bar Council view matters of that kind. Of course, there is controversy in this matter. For 20 years there has been tremendous controversy, and, as the Minister stated, the Labour Party in 1924 sought to introduce certain legislation. When they went out of office it is not without significance to notice that the Conservative Government which followed dropped that legislation. It may have been right or wrong; I am only proving that it is a controversial matter. It is the first element in controversy that people should disagree.
  Then came 1930, when Miss Bondfield, who was Minister of Labour, made a draft special Order applying the trade board principle to the catering trade. I want to reassure the Minister, in case he has not realised it, that that is not such a dilatory procedure as he seemed to fear nor as hon. Members think it is. On a day in August, 1930, Miss Bondfield announced that she was going to make a draft special Order. There was a public inquiry on 24th November. The Commissioner sat for 15 days, excluding Sundays, until 8th December, and on 31st December made his report. I was present throughout the whole of that inquiry, and prob-
  1248
  ably I am the only person who is in a position to say what happened. I propose to tell the House exactly what did happen, because it is not uninteresting. There were a large number of objectors, about 80, of whom 30 or 40 appeared and addressed the Commissioner. Sir Arthur Colefax made a series of findings. At this inquiry there were represented, among others, the trade boards advisory council of the Trades Union Congress, and they were represented by quite a strong team. I will read some of the evidence, so that the House can judge what they said about this Order. The Commissioner, when he considered the evidence against the trade, reported:
  "No case was developed at the inquiry with a view to establishing the prevalance of bad conditions in any class of employment in any branch of trade included in the draft special Order."
  It seems fair, in view of the allegations made to-day, that no effort was made on that occasion to attack the whole trade. No one can say that the conditions have deteriorated since 1930, although the hon. Member for West Islington has said that the conditions in the trade are so artificial that it would be monstrous to hold an inquiry now because it would not give any idea what the present conditions were. What did Mr. Mallon say in the course of his evidence before Sir Arthur Colefax? He is a man for whom I have the greatest possible respect. He sat in the forefront of this Inquiry and remained there throughout. I will read what he said as reported in "The Times" of 28th November, 1930. He was asked directly by the Commissioner whether the conditions of employment in the trade were good or bad. Mr. Mallon said:
  "There were some workers whose plight was less good than that of others."
  He could not say anything more precise than that. Mr. Mallon contended that there was no organisation in this section of the trade; even the employers were not organised. There had been, however, attempts to organise the workers by the unions, which had spent a lot of energy and money in attempts to build up an organisation and had failed. The idea that all was well in the trade was a fallacy.
  "The presence of the unions here,"
  said Mr. Mallon,
  "is an exercise on their part of pure philanthropy. They are not going to gain anything.

  1249
  Practically all the unions have given up concerning themselves seriously with this trade. They have not spent £10 on this inquiry; indeed, they have not got it. We have never made any allegations against all the employers in this trade"—
  unlike the hon. Member for Wednesbury—
  "Our case is that there are conditions which are easy to remedy, and we hope that we shall get the good will of the employers who observe decent and admirable conditions in remedying the conditions that are ill."
  In view of that and of the views of the Commissioner, it is not surprising that Sir Henry Betterton, the Minister of Labour who succeeded Miss Bondfield, decided to drop the whole thing. That was the decision of a National Government after a Socialist Government, and it might be thought by some people that that was evidence that the matter was controversial.
  What I want the House to understand about this industry or service is that it is of a domestic character. It is unlike any other trade or industry in the country from that point of view. There is much closer contact between employer and employees than anywhere else. Any Member who is accustomed to going about and living in hotels will always find that there is some person closely concerning himself at all times with the conduct of the business. That holds good throughout the industry. It has to be so, because at the first sign of the workpeople's dissatisfaction with either wages or conditions in the industry the standard of service given to the customer drops, and very serious consequences may follow. That is one reason why, in self-protection, employers, even if they are not humanitarian, see to it that conditions of employment and wages are good.
  I should like to thank the Minister for his commendation of the work of the late Member for Harrow, and I should like to tell the right hon. Gentleman and the House that Sir Isidore Salmon, with a good record of service in relation to this industry, was an implacable opponent of trade board procedure and to this suggested regulation of the industry. He was the founder of the London County Council school which has done such admirable work in training people for the catering industry, and that scheme did not need a wages board or a commission or any of the rest of this paraphernalia. Is it really necessary that we should have
  1250
  this machinery? Nobody except the Minister, and he only in a half-hearted way, really wants it. I cannot believe that this Bill is necessary for the purpose of winning the war. I think men in the Armed Forces in different countries who hear about our deliberations to-day and hereafter in Committee may wonder what we think we are doing. They may wonder whether we could not do more to assist the war by producing tanks, aeroplanes and contrivances to defeat submarine warfare than we are by setting up commissions of inquiry into hypothetical conditions after the war. No Commission which sits now and makes recommendations in the light of present circumstances will be of the slightest value when we come to deal with things after the war. The whole position is completely artificial. No findings by the Commission will make the slightest difference to what will have to be done after the war.
  Lieut.-Colonel Marlowe: Was it not a suggestion of the opponents of the Bill that an inquiry should be set up now?
  Major Gluckstein: Yes, that there should be an inquiry straightaway because if the conditions in the trade were bad, and I say they were not, then we had better know straightaway, so that we can take steps against what is to happen at the end of the war. But what is happening now is that the House of Commons is asked to pass a Bill before it knows why it is to pass it, or whether it is needed and we are to follow that up by an inquiry, and if by any chance the inquiry shows that the legislation was not necessary then we shall have wasted our time. Does anybody really want this Bill? Have employees asked for it? I am told that the employees have not any organisation through which to put their views, but, after all, one would expect that one man somewhere would have come forward to say that it was quite a good idea. I have not received any such letter and do not know of anybody else who has. There have been plenty of letters against it from both employees and employers.
  Mr. Banfield: Is it not true that if a man employed by the biggest catering firm in London wrote a letter publicly supporting this scheme he would get the sack?
  Major Gluckstein: I think the answer to that is "Nonsense."
  Mr. Banfield: It is not nonsense. He would be turned out on to the streets to starve.
  Major Gluckstein: We are having some more sob-stuff from the hon. Member. Obviously this is slightly controversial.
  Mr. Quintin Hogg: Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman not realise that controversy has been introduced by himself?
  Major Gluckstein: No. I have been setting out the objections to this scheme, but quite a number of irrelevant personalities have been introduced. I am trying to stick to the Bill. I think the position boils down to this: the Minister of Labour wants it. A good many years ago there was an advertisement of Pears' Soap showing a small child leaning out of the bath reaching towards a cake of soap and underneath were the words "He won't be happy till he gets it." I think that applies in this case. The Minister has always believed in this policy and he wants it. Whether some of the Conservative Party are quite so sensible in helping him to get it is a matter for them. But he has demonstrated quite clearly "The Importance of being Earnest."
  I have read the Bill very carefully and am afraid that I do not agree with some of the views put forward by the Minister. We are to have an inquiry, but who are to be the inquirers? We do not know. There are certain mysterious people. I think one will be a woman. She might be able to help a little in some of the domestic questions. What I want to make clear is that no matter how sincere and how high minded and how able the people are who make these reports the Minister is not obliged to accept them. He can put them into the waste-paper basket, or he can send them back and invite them to have another try. He is absolutely a dictator of the catering trade. If the Commission do not like it they can either resign or fall in with the Minister's views. I see no reason why the Minister of Labour should be a sort of super-caterer. Another important point is that the Commission will receive representations in writing. They can do exactly what they like, can take evidence or not as they think fit, and when they have part of the story they can make their report. Surely it would be wiser
  1252
  for the Commission to sit in public and hear evidence from the people who are affected.
  I am a little concerned about Clause 6, the efficiency Clause, since I do not put upon it the construction which the Minister does. It seems to me that the trade board has power under this Clause to report anything which affects the efficiency and development of that part of the industry in relation to which the board operates. After that the matter goes before the Commission and the Commission make representations to the Government Department concerned. I must interpret the word "efficiency" as covering every single activity of the trade. It is an extremely dangerous principle to adopt, and I feel that the large majority of Members of this House have no mandate to advocate it. If the electors had decided that industry should be publicly controlled one could understand the situation, but as things stand I do not feel that a Minister or a Government Department are the best judges of what represents efficiency in a trade. Are Ministers satisfied that they have conducted their own Departments so efficiently that they can go to private enterprise and suggest an amendment in its standards of efficiency? I expect that the Minister of Labour has had a number of complaints of the things which have been done by his officers. I hope that we can induce the Government to see that this Bill is a very controversial matter. A number of quite loyal supporters of the Government are opposing it. They are not accustomed to being against the Government, and do not want to cease supporting the Government, but I do not think any person who believes that a trade ought to be tried and judged before it is sentenced can possibly support the Bill.
  Sir Ralph Glyn: I think the House will have heard with interest the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for East Nottingham (Major Gluckstein). On the question of controversy, I am one of those who regret very much the statement of the late Leader of the House, because I think the House will lose all its savour if it parts with all controversy. This House exists in order that matters should be discussed, and it is the duty of the Government to introduce Measures of this kind if in their opinion they will have a definite

  1253
  effect on the post-war position. I have not heard anybody who is in opposition to the Bill mention that it is definitely stated in the Bill that the Commission are to encourage voluntary machinery for the settlement of disputes. The whole emphasis of the criticism of this Bill is that it is forcing wages boards on the industry. As I understand it, that is not so. The catering trade is very diverse, and it is almost impossible to have a common wages board for the whole trade, but if different sections of the employers and workpeople get together and establish proper machinery on the lines that all well regulated trade unions and employers take, there will be no question whatever of a wages board being set up. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary may find it possible to emphasise that fact, because anybody coming into the House who had not heard the speech of the Minister might well think that this was a wages board Bill.
  In regard to conditions, I have been engaged recently, with other hon. Members, in work which has brought us into contact with the great improvements now being made in the arrangements for cooking in the Army and the other Services. The work has been carried out extraordinarily well, so well that contractors for swill now complain bitterly that they cannot get any swill. That is a measure of the efficiency of the cooking. I am certain that those who have been laughing to-day about the efficiency of Army cooks would indeed have something to astonish them if they had known the cooking in the last war. It is now infinitely better. Our people have proved that they can tackle the problem of diet and the selection of foods.
  In regard to conditions in the industry the Minister said that he had had a great deal to do with the caterers' association, and we all recognise the work that he did. I saw something of the business of that association. It was extremely well run. I am convinced that it will be necessary after the war to find proper accommodation for all these workers in every part of the country and under decent conditions. I do not think we can expect trade unionists to take a holiday with pay if they find that the people looking after them are living under impossible conditions. I cannot understand why there should be opposition to trying to put this industry on lines similar to all the other
  1254
  great industries of the country. I feel that those who are associated with this industry are—I say so with all respect—very ill-advised, because the ordinary man must think that there is something to hide. The time is past for that kind of thing.
  As one who has been in this House since 1918, I feel that we must now cast our minds forward. I do not care in the least what Miss Bondfield said in 1931. I want to know what the facts are and what the Minister of Labour says to-day, in 1943. I want to see this country adjust itself to new conditions. If hon. Members on this side of the House are always to put themselves in opposition to anything new, we shall never make any progress. I must say that it is rather galling to think that hon. Members on the other side take to themselves all the credit for progress. The past record of our side shows that sure progress has very often been brought about by Members of the party to which I have the honour to belong. Several hon. Members to-day have said that they want a committee of inquiry to go into this matter.
  Captain Peter Macdonald: We have tried to make it plain that we want an impartial public inquiry.
  Sir R. Glyn: I respect the reasons which were put forward for my hon. and gallant Friend's constituents, but he himself said, when he was talking about a Commission, that a Commission could not possibly do much good because the whole industry was upside down. How could an impartial public inquiry now come to any other conclusion? It seems far better to establish a permanent Commission to take its time. Such a Commission will not be composed of prejudiced idiots. [An HON. MEMBER: "How do you know?"] If Parliament is always to assume that any Commission set up by the Government is to be composed of ninnies, we shall never get on with our legislation. I do not want to take up any more time, but in conclusion I would say that I am sure we have a definite duty to ex-Service men after the war, and to women also. We cannot expect them to go back into an unorganised industry. We must organise this industry from every point of view. I am sure it can be done. The history of the war shows, above everything else, that if you have happy relations between workers and management you can do a

  1255
  great deal more than would be possible otherwise. You could never have got the present organisation which the Ministry of Labour has arranged in mobilising man-power, unless you had had well-organised unions working in with the managements. The same will be true of demobilisation. It is essential to realise that demobilisation will be a vast problem. God knows, we were not ready to win the war in 1939; let us see to it that we are ready to win the peace when it comes.
  Sir D. Hacking: May I ask the Leader of the House a question, Mr. Speaker? In view of the very large number of Members who desire to take part in the Debate—he has seen it himself—will he consider the suspension of the Standing Order to enable us to continue this Debate?
  Mr. Eden: I am must reluctant to do this. Of course I am in the hands of the House in the matter. I had no notice of this request before to-day, and, in my view, when we make a rule such as we have now had for six months, we should keep to it. We shall find ourselves in great difficulty if we depart from it. If we did so once we should have to do so again. I must be guided by the House on this matter/but I hope we shall be able to come to our decision at the usual time.
  Petty-Officer Alan Herbert: Historians, who are often unfair, may remark with sardonic interest that at a time when the whole of Europe is waiting to hear the thunder of the guns of the United Nations and to see the ships bringing food to the starving peoples, the House of Commons was compelled, even bullied by His Majesty's Government to discuss a contentious Measure concerning eating and drinking in Great Britain—after the war. I should not share that view. These things are important in the life of the nation. The way in which they are conducted is an index not only of our civilisation but of our character and even of the soul of a nation. They are a corner of the art of life, and therefore suitable, I think, for the attention of a University Member.
  And, therefore, I take more interest in the second part of the Preamble of the Bill than I do in the first part. The second part has hardly been discussed to-day. It refers to catering workers and to the measures proposed for the
  1256
  "efficiency and development of the industries in which they are employed."
  I believe that the Minister has a vision: and so far as I understand that vision—interpreted, it is true, by the very busy propaganda service of the Ministry—I share it. It is that we should arrange our eating and drinking on standards much nearer to those on the Continent. By the way, is not this business of public relations officers being a little overdone? It is not enough to-day for a Minister to discharge explosive Bills at us, but the whole country must be flooded at the same time with clouds of tear-gas in the form of propaganda from a public relations officer, in order to stupify the defences before the battle is joined. Well, I gather from one of these gentlemen that the Minister of Labour "desires to see the British inn compete with the Continent in the provision of decent meals and beds." I should like to see it too. Much as I have said, and fought, and written for the people's beer, and the people's pub, I agree that there is much that is barbarous in our conditions and if those conditions were likely to be swept away by the Bill I should whole-heartily support it. I hate to see a mother and child standing in the rain, or even in the sun, outside a place of refreshment which the law has decided is not fit for a child under 16 to enter. I hate to take anybody into a place labelled "licensed victualler" when I know that you will not be able to get any "victuals" there at all—not so much as a sausage roll (though, let me say, this is better than it was—I know many a little pub which has done very well, but they are far between). I hate to take a foreigner, a Parisian for example, into an eating-house, where I have to confess that the wines of this country are taxed as though they were dangerous poisons.
  Mr. Speaker: I hope that the hon. and gallant Member will not get on to the subject of the licensing laws.
  Petty-Officer Herbert: The licensing laws were mentioned in the Amendment which I had on the Paper.
  Mr. Speaker: That is one of the reasons why I did not select that Amendment.
  Petty-Officer Herbert: I was trying to examine what the Bill will do for the efficiency and development of the industry. What I want to see, and I know

  1257
  what the Hon. Gentleman wants to see, is more cheap decent eating-houses for the people where not merely man and wife but man, wife and child can go and entertain themselves together—as they can in almost any street abroad. The right hon. Gentleman keeps telling us that there will be more and more catering after the war. He does not say who is to provide it. Presumably this most despised catering trade, which has been so firmly ground in the dust to-day. Well, let us see how this Bill will assist in providing more decent, clean, cheap eating-houses. In my own district of Hammersmith I could march you along three miles of a great highway and not find a single place where a man could take his wife and child to have a meal either midday or in the evening. There are not enough. [Interruption.] Do let me implore the Noble Lady not to interrupt me even when I am agreeing with her. Four years ago I gave her the advice to take a barrel of port every day to soothe her nerves and make her a better citizen and a less restless Member of Parliament.
  Viscountess Astor: Does the hon. and gallant Member think that those people who take a barrel of port every day are better Members than me in this House?
  Petty-Officer Herbert: I have never had that experience. My only doubt about the Noble Lady is whether a barrel would be a sufficient sedative. To return to the Bill, I do want to see how it is to work. The Minister, God bless him, directs the Wages Commission to find out why it is there are not more decent, clean, cheap eating houses and, by the way, I want more, not merely after the war but now when there are so many overworked housewives, workmen and so forth. Will he direct one of his officers to make inquiries? This officer, by the way, is entitled to question any employer or employee and when he gets a reply he is entitled to compel the putting of the answer into writing: and these seem to be very odd proceedings. However, in this way the Wages Commission find out that there are not enough decent, clean, eating houses in such and such a street. The officer also finds out the reason why there are not—that this street is in the licensing division of X which is notorious because the licensing justices of that division are the sort of justices who say that if a game of darts is played on Sun-
  1258
  day the licensee will lose his licence, who will permit no music, no—
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. and gallant Member is going back to the licensing laws.
  Captain C. S. Taylor: On a point of Order. Under Clause 6 (3) surely the points the hon. and gallant Member is raising do, I submit with the greatest respect, deal with "the efficiency and the development" of the industry.
  Mr. Speaker: If the hon. and gallant Member would deal with that alone he would be quite in Order.
  Petty-Officer Herbert: Well, under the machinery which the Ministry is putting forward it will be asked why there are so few of these cheap, clean eating houses: and it will be reported that new licences of that sort in this division are opposed by the justices, by the brewers and by other eating houses for this reason. Every new licence has to pay a monopoly value—which may amount to £2,500 for a big hotel and £250 for a small one; and in addition to that for each existing licensed premises a large liquor licence has to be paid. When an enterprising person wants to start a new eating house he is opposed by the justices because they set their face against an extension of drinking even with eating; secondly, by the brewers; thirdly, by the other eating houses, who say "If we have to pay this large monopoly value why should others come in?" In nine cases out of ten in many areas, and ten cases out of ten in not so many, a licence will be refused and the applicant cannot start an eating house. That is the fundamental obstacle to development and progress and this Bill does nothing to remove it. I agree that in this battle between brewers and teetotallers, the old tragic unnatural divorce between eating and drinking sometimes the brewers are to blame, sometimes the followers of my Noble Friend. I say that this Bill is absolutely worthless, or nearly absolutely worthless, from the point of view of helping the efficiency and development of the industry unless the Minister is as bold about the things I must not mention as he has been about the others. I feel so strongly about this that I really cannot give a vote for this Bill. I should like it to be defeated, apart from other things in it, so that the Minister will be forced to go back to the

  1259
  War Cabinet and say, "I cannot do what I want to do unless I have these powers, and I cannot put more burdens on this industry unless I am allowed to free their hands." Therefore I shall vote against the Second Reading of the Bill. I cannot support my hon. Friends because they want "no controversial legislation"—and I want, at the moment, more.
  Having stated this position, I suppose my opinion on other parts of the Bill are not very important, but as an independent person I should like to say this about hours and wages and the Trade. First, I have an awful confession to make! I must say that I have one share in the Cafe Royal of £5 which brings me about is. 7d. per year. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up."] I am so ashamed! I was saying that I do hold one share in the Cafe Royal of £5 value bringing me about is. 7d. a year. I bought it in sentiment because the Cafe Royal seems to me to be the embodiment in London of what I like, and what the Minister likes, in Paris. Well, I wish to say about the catering trade that I think they have been rather harshly used. The Minister has been very fair, but he might have been fairer still, I think. For instance, when he referred to the L.C.C. school of cookery he might have said that that was the idea of the hotel and catering trade and the money for the building to provide that excellent scheme was provided by the hotels and restaurants.
  He has spoken about the exchange of waiters and so on. Well, I am told that before the war the Hotels and Restaurants Association had a great scheme for the exchange of servants between England and Norway, France, and elsewhere. They made 500 exchanges; and but for this war those exchanges would still be going on. Where do these gentlemen who write apparently-inspired paragraphs in the papers get their information? There is a gentleman in the "Star," calling himself the Labour Correspondent, who wrote yesterday that after the war it would be impossible for the Government to leave this industry "entirely unregulated and uncontrolled."
  Viscountess Aston: Hear, hear.
  Petty-Officer Herbert: What does the Noble Lady mean by, "Hear, hear"? So far as I know, there was never an
  1260
  industry more regulated. [An HON. MEMBER: "In wages and hours?"] Not wages; I am talking about conditions. Has the Noble Lady ever heard of the Shops Act, 1913, which was specially brought in for the catering trade 30 years ago? She will find notices—here is one—stuck up near the staff room doors of every hotel, public house, and canteen, every place which sells food and drink, to other than residents, because all workers in such places come under the Shops Act, 1913—and so will all the workers in the new hostels and canteens foreseen by the Minister. Here are beneficent provisions for the hours, holidays, and meal times of such persons; and, believe it or not, this unregulated trade had 30 years ago, I believe before any other industry, a weekly holiday with full pay. True, it was a six-day week, but we have advanced since then.
  Mr. Robertson: Is the hon. and gallant Member aware that, in spite of these things, the mortality in the public-house industry is greater than in any other industry, greater than in coalmining, the steel industry, or any other dangerous occupation?
  Viscountess Astor: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that when we examined conditions in Newcastle-on-Tyne we found that there were girls under 18 working 10 hours a day, and getting 5s., 6s. and 8s. a week, in spite of that Act?
  Petty-Officer Herbert: May I for a moment intervene? I am not going to question the assertion of my Noble Friend. All I can say is that if that is right it is not a very big advertisement for "regulations." I say that this has been a most regulated industry by-law for 30 years. If the provisions are out of date or wrong, let us amend them. We are not asked to do that. We are asked to buy a pig in a poke. It would be a much better thing if we said here in this House, that we wanted fewer hours, more holidays, or whatever is required, but we have not got that. I must say I can see nothing new being offered in the way of "conditions." Wages I grant. Well it is not for me to oppose the regulation of waiters' wages. But is it relevant to ask whether waiters want to have their wages regulated?
  Mr. Messer: They want more pay.
  Petty-Officer Herbert: I do not think they do want regulated wages. I do not know. But I belong to a very similar trade, which caters, it is true, for the mind, and I should thank no man for regulating my remuneration. I should thank the Government if they would create a prosperity, in which my work can be done and disposed of, let me have paper and so on, which they do not do now. I do not know that you are going to get much thanks from the workers for what you are doing. I am afraid that what the Minister is offering is merely machinery. It is quite natural that, with his very fine history of fighting for the working man, the very thought that anybody has not got a trade union seems to him a crime against nature. The trade union button is to some what I am told the old school tie is to others. It may be that both are a little out-of-date. Well, I entirely agree that where you have a great powerful trade union in an industry and it has fought its way up, everybody ought to be in it; but I am not persuaded that in an industry where there is not only no obvious anxiety to have a union, but a stubborn refusal to have one, the men should be forced to have one for their own good. And if this trade were not quite all we should like it to be, would it be surprising? Can you think of any other trade which is so harassed and persecuted and taxed? Can you go on year after year beating an animal like a donkey, and then expect it to behave like a Derby winner?
  I hope the Minister will reconsider this Bill. I am not a party man, and I am not going to talk about party truces and all that sort of things, but it seems to me that this Bill is a great mountain of machinery with not very much meat in it. It reminds, me of a man who insisted on buying a large expensive gilt frame. When asked what picture he was going to put into it, he said that he was not quite certain, but that he must have a frame. I do not think this Measure will add to the happiness of many people. I know it is not going to lure a single tourist to this country. It is not going to create so much as a coffee stall. It takes none of the burden away from this industry; it adds more. It is going to cause ill feelings—it has—though not with me. I do
  1262
  not say, "We want nothing like this!" I say: "Take this away, and bring back something better."
  Mr. Horabin: I shall not follow the hon. and gallant Gentleman in his delightful incursion into the jungle of the licensing laws. I represent a constituency in which the main industry to-day is catering. Ever since the question of a Catering Bill being introduced was first mooted, I have been snowed under with letters and telegrams asking me to oppose the Bill. All this intensive lobbying led me, to think the Minister was going to introduce a blood-red Measure, instead of which we have the pale pink Bill we are considering at present. We all agree that the catering industry is difficult to deal with. It is divided into many branches, and it is difficult to determine the boundaries between the sections. The remuneration of the employees, very frequently, is a mixture of a cash wage and tips; in other words, employees are frequently not only paid by the employers but are also paid by the people who pay the employers. There is dissatisfaction with this position, which lays itself open to all kinds of abuses. I agree with the Minister. The special case of catering has required special treatment, but I fail to understand to-day—and I have listened to the whole of this Deflate with the exception of 10 minutes or a quarter-of-an-hour—why the opposition are accusing the Government of breaking any pledge. What is there in this Bill that is going to cause any great political dissension? What is the Minister trying to do? First of all, he sets up an independent Commission on which the views of the employers and workers are fully represented. What is wrong with that? How does that lead to political dissension? This independent Commission will inquire into the remuneration and conditions of employment in the catering trade. What is wrong with that? And then, after inquiry, the Commission will report whether the conditions are satisfactory or not, and they will report how conditions can be made better. Surely, there is nothing wrong with that? There is nothing controversial in it. The Commission can make proposals for improving the conditions in the trade.
  Mr. Beverley Baxter: The hon. Member says that the Commission will have upon it members representing

  1263
  employers and workers. He will find that that is not true.
  Mr. Horabin: If the hon. Member will look at the Schedule, he will see that it says representatives of both employers and employed.
  Mr. Baxter: It says
  "not themselves directly connected with the hotel and catering trades."
  It is on page 13. That is the Commission.
  Mr. Horabin: The first Schedule says:
  "The Commission shall consist of persons appointed by the Minister, being—
  not more than three persons, chosen as being independent persons;
  and not more than two persons chosen by the Minister to represent employers;
  not more than two persons chosen by the Minister to represent employed persons."
  I cannot believe that the Minister would appoint those persons to represent the employers and the employees without, first of all, consulting the sections they are to represent. The Commission can make a proposal for the establishment of wages boards, but when can they do that? Only when, by investigation, they have shown that the conditions as to wages and conditions of employment are unsatisfactory. What on earth is wrong with that? Or alternatively they can report to the Minister, whose duty it is then to carry out any improvement the Commission suggests should be carried out. There is nothing in these proposals to raise political controversy. Surely at this stage in our industrial history this kind of proposal is not going to cause any political division in the country. One thing is certain. Caterers who are already paying employees adequate wages and giving them decent conditions of labour have nothing whatever to fear from either the Commission or a wages board. What the caterer who is treating his employees well has to fear is being under-cut by those caterers who are sweating their workers. That is the real thing they have to fear, and that is what I could see operating adversely in my own division before the war broke out.
  There is an Amendment on the Order Paper to include domestic servants in this proposal. Personally, I feel that that is a sound proposal. At the present moment the conditions for domestic servants are on
  1264
  the whole excellent, because labour is in short supply, but when the war is over we may again have those conditions which obtained before the war. Here again I suggest that the good employer of domestic servants will have nothing whatever to fear from any investigations of such a Commission as the Minister proposes to set up.
  I support the Minister to the full in this Bill, because I believe that it is in the interests of those caterers who are in my Division. They will be making a profound mistake to oppose this Bill. I would say to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chorley (Sir D. Hacking) that I am deeply grateful to him for bringing forward this Amendment and to those Tories who have supported him, because they have given us a very clear picture of what this country is going to be like after the war if there is a Tory majority in this House of Commons.
  Mr. Muff: I would like to sympathise with the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for the Isle of Wight (Captain P. Macdonald), who is not now in his place. He drew a moving picture as to the conditions from the Yorkshire coast right away down to the Isle of Wight, of what had happened and of the parlous state of boarding-house keepers. One thing that this Bill will do, I honestly think, is to bring more prosperity ultimately to all those boarding-house keepers, and that is why I have risen to support the Bill. The hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight referred to sinister influences. The chief sinister influence in the Debate to-day is the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chorley (Sir D. Hacking). He has not as yet completely unmasked his guns. I cannot for the time being realise what he is after. At first I thought he was going to be a Lancelot, but in debate he proved himself a Don Quixote. The hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Wight and the hon. and gallant Member for East Nottingham (Major Gluckstein) asked why this Bill has been introduced. I want to tell the hon. and gallant Member the Senior Burgess for Oxford University (Petty-Officer Herbert) that it has not been introduced in order to bring even foreign tourists to this country. Those of us who are in touch with affairs know that immediately we have peace there will be millions of workers who have not been

  1265
  able to take any intended holiday who will want a holiday. That is one reason why the Bill should be introduced at the present juncture and not await either a new Parliament or until the peace treaty has been signed.
  The hon. and gallant Member for East Nottingham mentioned that he had not had one letter in support of the Bill, but we have all had a pamphlet—I suppose it was really from the brewing industry, though I do not really know—in which it is stated that with all the courage that the Minister of Labour might have he would not have dared to introduce the Bill if the workers in the catering industry had been organised. I suggest that there would have been little or no need to introduce this Bill if the workers had been organised. This House is legislating for the great inarticulate; we are not legislating so much for those foreign waiters in Seven Dials and the other places that my hon. and gallant Friend frequents all too often. We are legislating to see that these boarding houses are carried on and particularly for those who usually live in the area down below and who are unseen. That is another reason why I am so glad that so many of my hon. Friends opposite are supporting the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Chorley for years sat on those benches. He used to come like a flitting ghost. He looked at his battalions, as a chief of staff should, to see if any were "browned-off" and then went back to St. Stephen's Chambers. Now he has less responsibility and more freedom. He speaks to-day for a bygone tradition.
  To-day we are having a preliminary rehearsal as to the real intentions of this House. I remember a historic Debate when the then Prime Minister, now my right hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) said, "As a result of this Debate I shall apply the acid test." He did so in 1918, and over 100 Members below the Gangway got the order of the boot. To a minor degree we are applying the acid test to ourselves to-day, that test being whether we, as a Council of State, are ready, without too much party feeling, to try to solve the problems which are most difficult to solve under ordinary conditions. It is my privilege to be able to mix with the men in the Forces, and they tell me that they do not want too
  1266
  much party politics. The acid test of our sincerity is not whether we can simply give a square deal to those in the catering industry. We shall have other tests in the future. When they come I hope the House will rise to the occasion and that we shall endeavour to do our duty to the great inarticulate, as we have tried to do it during the past two or three years.
  Sir Leonard Lyle: I rise to oppose the Bill and support the Amendment, and to try and correct some of the misrepresentations which have been made concerning those who are opposing the Bill. I would like to make my own position absolutely clear. I have never given my support, and I hope I never shall, to any trade which indulges in unsatisfactory conditions for its workpeople. If the Minister could show that in this trade there was any suspicion that conditions were not as they should be, or that there was sweated labour, my opposition would cease from that moment, as I believe would the opposition of those who take the same view as I do. I hope the House will forgive me for dwelling on a personal aspect for one moment, because I do value the good opinion of hon. Members opposite in this matter. I would not like anybody to think that I would support anything in the nature of a sweated industry. I have had a happy industrial career and have been very happy with the people I have had the great honour to employ, many of whom are my friends. I am sure hon. Members will believe me when I say that I have not come to my present age in order to support anything in the nature of unfair conditions or a sweated trade.
  I said during the negotiations that if the Minister could show that any such condition existed, our opposition would cease. In opposing the Second Reading of this Bill without a preliminary inquiry, I submit that the charges that have been levelled against us are unfair and, in some cases, unworthy. After all, there have been a good many red herrings drawn across this Debate to-day. We have heard a lot about what the Minister wants to do with regard to improving conditions after the war and absorbing the men and women who are coming back. We are all agreed on that. I am opposing the Bill only on principle. What we object to is the procedure which has been followed, the secrecy and absence of

  1267
  proper consultations with the trade and industry and the gilding of the pill with the exaggerated suggestion that it has something to do with the post-war prosperity of the trade in general. I do not think anyone can say that once during this war has there been any indication of a public demand for control of the catering industry. We have heard a lot about social security and planning, which have been approached in a different way. We have had inquiries and reports, and on these matters Parliament has been able to throw light, as a result of which well considered schemes of reconstruction have, in consequence, been brought forward. Such matters have been raised above party controversy, and as a Council of State we have had something to go on. But with this Bill there has been no public inquiry—
  Mr. Robertson: Why does my hon. Friend keep harping on about a public inquiry? Does he realise that an inquiry at the moment, when there is a famine in the labour market, would reveal that reasonably good wages are being paid? Does he realise that in some kitchens in London hotel workers who used to receive 35s. a week now receive £3 10s.? That is all an inquiry would reveal. But when the war comes to an end there will be a surplus of labour, and wage rates will go downwards again if this Bill does not become law.
  Sir L. Lyle: I have been given the chance of speaking in this Debate on the understanding that I would not occupy more than a few minutes, and therefore, I hope my hon. Friend will not object to my not answering him in detail, except to say that I think no harm would have been done in having a public inquiry. Certainly, we would have found out many things in regard to wages and conditions. I do not think it is a good argument to say that because we are in conditions of war an inquiry would have been of no service. In any case, there has not been any inquiry, and therefore, in my opinion we have not had the necessary information. What happened was that the Minister suddenly announced his intention of bringing in a scheme with regard to the catering trade and he decided on this much in the same way as Ribbentrop decided to tell the Poles what was going
  1268
  to happen to them. The Minister did not give us any information. He has himself said that he is not in possession of any up-to-date facts, and the only thing we know for certain is that during the past two years, when we did have inquiries, all the inquiries showed that they could find nothing wrong with the business. What can be said quite fairly is that, as a result of those previous inquiries, there was nothing on which they could condemn the industry as a whole and on which they could say that the conditions were sweated.
  Instead of there being an impartial inquiry such as I think there ought to have been, all that has happened, as the Senior Burgess for Oxford University (Petty-Officer Herbert) has said, is that there has been Ministerial propaganda on a very big scale, not only by way of meetings addressed by the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary, whom we were delighted to hear talking to us, but a regular spate of propaganda from the public relations officers of the Ministry. That is a matter that is worthy of the attention of the House. Although it is very necessary that Ministers should have public relations and propaganda officials, and although these men do their work extraordinarily well, I think that, since the taxpayer pays for them, it is introducing a very new principle if these officers are to be put on to the job of propaganda before the House has decided on a Measure and while a Measure is still what one might call sub judice.
  I am rather surprised that the trade unions should be so enthusiastic about this Bill, as the Minister suggested they were. It seems to me that if such a system is extended it will very seriously weaken the power of the trade unions. On questions of wages alone they will find that they will be asking people to join the unions and finding that the answer will be, "What have you got to offer? The regulation has been made already." In any case, the trade unions, if they do make an arrangement, may find that the agreement is entirely disowned by the Government or by the Minister of Labour. That is what seems to have happened in the case of the industrial canteens. Two unions agreed to a scale but a third union managed to persuade the Minister not to carry on with the scheme. I think the whole of the episode of the industrial canteens and their efforts to get a wages

  1269
  agreement and bring themselves under the Essential Work Order is a very gloomy foreboding of what will happen when this Bill becomes law. I will read to the House a letter which was sent by the Minister of Labour to the Joint Council of these canteens, dated 28th January, 1942. It reads:
  "I am directed by the Minister of Labour and National Service to inform you that he has now completed the examination of the wages position affecting canteens mentioned in my letter of 9th December with reference to the request made by the National Joint industrial Council for the industrial catering trade for the application of the Essential Work Order to canteens in essential works. In Mr. Bevin's view the final responsibility for the staff employed in the canteen ought to rest with the principal employer in the factory and the staff employed in the canteen are entitled to all facilities for welfare in the factory, including medical attention and any other amenities. To apply the Essential Work Order in the manner suggested by those concerned would imply his acquiescence in the divorce of this responsibility from the principal employer. For these reasons Mr. Bevin does not feel able to agree to the application of the Essential Work Order to canteens in essential works."
  What does this mean? It means that although the workers and the employers have worked out a satisfactory wages scale, the Minister would not accept it simply because it would not fit into his line of thought and did not carry out what he thought was the right thing. This is a matter of principle. Under this Bill it is not a matter of what type of conditions we want to have after the war. It must be remembered that under the Bill the Minister is taking to himself what can be described only as dictatorial powers. It is not a question of what wages and conditions are in a trade. It is a question of the Minister of Labour, the present Minister or any other Minister, saying, "I do not know the latest facts of the case, but I have decided that the trade should come under certain regulations." If we allow that sort of thing to happen, if we allow the Minister to do this not only with regard to wages and regulations of that sort, but to be able, if he so desires, to try to apply control to the management of the industry, we might as well give up our position altogether. In conclusion, I want to make my firm protest against the breach of the pledge that was given. It is a terrible thing if the Government, who are, we all know, individually men of the highest and most unimpeachable honour, should as a body break a solemn pledge that was given.
  Mr. Eden: I have heard this said once or twice and I would like to assure my hon. Friend that, from the Government's point of view, we have looked at this carefully and we cannot admit that there has been any breach of any pledge.
  Sir L. Lyle: The pledge was made that no controversial measures should be brought forward unless for the successful prosecution of the war. Quite obviously it is controversial, and as it is only going to apply after the war is over how can it be for the purpose of the war? I have not time to go further into it and must leave it there.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. McCorquodale): I am sure the House will agree that we have had an interesting Debate with some good cut and thrust in the old style, and I do not think it was any the worse for that. I do not think my right hon. Friend has any reason to complain of the reception of his speech and the very widespread degree of support for the Measure from every party in the House. He introduced it in a comprehensive speech and showed, with a wealth of historical detail, how the Bill falls into its logical place in the sequence of industrial legislation in the last half-century. He also dealt in some considerable detail with the Clauses of the Bill. I presume the House will not expect me to go in detail over the ground that he so well covered. My purpose is to endeavour to reply to some of the points that have been made.
  May I first say a word as to my own position? I have been for the last year a Conservative Member of Parliament working at the Ministry of Labour and National Service with two colleagues belonging to the Labour Party. I am proud to be working there. I never want to serve under a better leader than my right hon. Friend, and I am proud to be serving along side my colleague, the hon. Member for Farnworth (Mr. Tomlinson) in this great Ministry during the war. It has always seemed to me that the method we follow, which is to approach every problem strictly on its merits, is the right one, and is in conformity with the policy of the Government as a whole. I mention this because several Members have said to me, "Of course, we understand your position over this Bill. You cannot very well oppose your own Minister." I

  1271
  should like to say emphatically and categorically that that is a complete misrepresentation of my position. The fact is that when I came to examine this problem—for it is a problem both from the point of view of what has gone before and from a practical angle—I, as a Conservative, and as one who has been in business all my life, became completely convinced that there were overwhelming advantages in dealing with the problem in the way we propose. I say, therefore, with no reservations of any kind, that I am certainly not less enthusiastic for the Measure than is my right hon. Friend himself. In my view it is no party Measure. For many years now every political party has consistently supported, inside and outside the House, the principles of collective bargaining and the development of self-government in industry.
  I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Abingdon (Sir R. Glyn) reminded me that this Bill placed in the forefront the development of self-government in the industry which, alas, is conspicuous by its absence at the present time. Following the industrial policy which this House has pursued regardless of party for so many years, this Bill seeks to develop joint machinery by which a foundation can be put in the trade, where collective bargaining does not exist and is not at present a practical possibility. If my years in business, and a highly competitive business, have taught me one lesson above others, it is that there is nothing more harmful to industry and nothing which is more liable to bring about chaotic conditions and poor returns than unfair and uneconomical price cutting. When price cutting is sustained by cutting wages below the general level, and when this is made possible because there is an over-crowded labour market, it is a disaster to everyone concerned. This Measure will protect the catering trades and all concerned from this major curse of industry. May I say a word later on the principle behind this Bill? I claim that it is in direct keeping with the Conservative attitude as it has been adopted in this House for many years.
  We have been constantly asked: "Why not an inquiry first?" Indeed, the whole opposition from the political end has not been to the substance of the Bill but to the mechanism of it. The question
  1272
  of the pledge has also been raised and I will come to that in a minute. It is demanded that we should set up an inquiry before the Bill is proceeded with. This is a practical question. It is not one of fundamental principle. If I am right in regarding it as a practical question, let us look at it from a practical angle. What would such an inquiry seek to do or not to do? It would, I presume, examine the conditions of the trade as a whole. We must remember that it is not one single trade but, as was described in the law courts, a congeries of trades. It would tell us the amount of organisation and the innumerable levels of wages that appertain in the industry. In the fourth year of war the conditions are like nothing that have been known before and are unlike anything we shall know again. No doubt such a form of inquiry would be interesting and possibly instructive, but would it pass the test I have laid down—would it lead to anything of any practical use? I do not believe it would.
  Nevertheless, it is obvious that some proper inquiries must be made before a wage board is set up. Our proposal is that the independent and long-term Commission—I emphasise "long-term"—should first sort out the industry. Those sections which were found to have a proper voluntary organisation and machinery, or where it was thought that there was a likelihood that this would be created, would be left and there would be no further investigation. The Commission would then have to consider all the other sections of the trade, and in the words of the Bill, would
  "make all such investigations as appear to them to be necessary"
  so that they could make up their minds whether a wages board was appropriate or not. If they think that a wages board should be proceeded with, they publish their recommendations, they receive representations in writing, and they hold an inquiry into those representations, an inquiry which may be held in public or in private as the Commission think best, following the lines of the arbitration courts at the present time. Following the further inquiries they make recommendations to my right hon. Friend. Before he sets up a wages board the whole matter is laid on the Table of the House for 40 days.
  To suggest, after all that has been gone through by the independent Commission, which is the master throughout, that my

  1273
  right hon. Friend is taking to himself dictatorial powers, is surely nonsense. It has been argued in one or two organs of the Press, and I am sorry to say has been brought up here, especially by the last speaker, that the investigation of the Commission was worthless because the Commission would be the creature of the Minister, paid by him and merely doing what he wants it to do. I would say, if I may, that I regard that idea as rather silly. In the first place, the opponents of this Measure want what they call an independent inquiry. My right hon. Friend would have to set up the personnel of that inquiry. Is there any reason to suppose that he would set up an independent body of people to make that inquiry but choose an improperly biased set of people for his own Commission? It seems to me absurd. Moreover, under Regulation 58A this House has been prepared to entrust to my right hon. Friend the ordering about of every single individual in this country for the purposes of the war. I regard the suggestion that this House is prepared to do that, but not prepared to let him set up an independent Commission, because he would probably "rig the market," as a suggestion that is not only silly but unworthy of the people who make it. To my mind the proposal to have a Commission making the necessary inquiries, and leaving the scope of their inquiries entirely to them, has many outstanding merits. One is that this Commission will be a long-term body which will not only make recommendations but live to see them carried out, and must therefore take responsibility for them. The Commission will be in existence after the end of the war. It will have to be in a position to advise and help with the difficulties of demobilisation and re-settlement, and I have no doubt that its recommendations will be largely influenced by the thought of those responsibilities.
  Mr. Baxter: Could any Member of this Commission be removed by the Minister for any cause?
  Mr. McCorquodale: There is a point on that which I will endeavour to answer when we come to it on the Committee stage. I would emphasise also that the Commission, because it is a long-term one, need not take decisions hurriedly. It can watch developments, it can proceed in the light of developments, it can take
  1274
  short-term or war-time decisions in the knowledge that it will be able to consider the post-war position later. In all respects I maintain that our mechanism of inquiry by the Commission is more practical and more valuable than that of the independent inquiry suggested.
  Now may I deal with the question of the pledge? Let me repeat that it is the view of the whole Government that this pledge does not conflict in any way with the pledge that was given. [Interruption.] This is the view of the whole Government, and as the Government gave that pledge and chose the wording of it, I should have thought they would be in the best position to judge. [An HON. MEMBER: "Disgraceful."] The Bill is necessary for two reasons. It was desirable for many reasons, but it is absolutely necessary for two reasons. The first is for the more efficient prosecution of the war. I am in closer touch, possibly, than any individual in this House with the difficulties of staffing the various industries in this war. I assert that it is absolutely necessary, if this war is prolonged and if we are to use the man and woman-power efficiently, for us to have some control in this industry. We cannot get that control without knowing what the wages and conditions are in the industry. In no case can we direct a man or woman to an industry or demand that that man or woman should remain in the industry, without knowing the conditions and the wages. The House would never allow it.
  Sir John Mellor: Could not those steps be taken under emergency powers?
  Mr. McCorquodale: I do not think that we need any special powers. The operation of the Essential Work Order would be sufficient when there is some basis in the industry, and the Bill will provide the basis. The second reason why the Bill is absolutely necessary is to deal with immediate post-war problems. [Interruption.] All those points are directly in line with the words used by the then Leader of the House. I will go on to deal with the other points, one of which was that if: is clearly inappropriate at this time to bring forward legislation of a character likely to arouse serious controversy between political parties. I emphasise the words "political parties," because I emphatically deny that there is political controversy over the substance of the Bill. [An HON.

  1275
  MEMBER: "Of course there is."] The Bill consists of Clauses dealing with trade boards, trade unions and collective bargaining, matters on which we are all agreed in this House. Indeed, the opponents of the Measure have been at pains, both to-day and outside, to show that they are not opposing all those things but are merely demanding an inquiry beforehand to see whether the Bill is necessary.
  Captain P. Macdonald Captain P. Macdonald rose—
  Mr. McCorquodale: I have only a few minutes more left to me. [HON. MEMBERS: "Macdonald."]
  Captain Macdonald: I only wanted to make one point, and that is, that the Minister is misleading the House in what he says about trade boards. There is actually a breach of the Trade Boards Act in the Bill, because there is not to be an inquiry.
  Mr. McCorquodale: There is no breach between this Bill, the Trade Boards Act and the Road Haulage Wages Board which was set up by a Tory Government. I fully admit that there is a dispute on a practical issue as to whether it is better to have an inquiry beforehand or a Commission permanently set up to make an inquiry; but that is not a major political dispute between political parties. I would further say—and I believe this feeling is shared by a good many in this House and in the country—that the demand is that the Government should take all possible steps for the successful prosecution of the war, while leading articles and speeches constantly clamour for more detailed plans to deal with the period of demobilisation and resettlement. Surely the truth is that any Government which failed to take what they regarded as necessary steps, either for the prosecution of the war or to deal with the demobilisation period, or for both objects, as in this Bill, because they feared to meet with opposition in certain quarters, would be quite rightly turned out of this House neck and crop for refusing to take that responsibility. The honest course, and to my belief the only course, for the British Government to take when they come to a decision that any Measure is necessary for either of those two purposes is to come down to the Houses of Parliament and tell them so, and that is what we are doing
  1276
  in this Bill. I wonder whether I might make one more observation on this point. If we accepted the argument of some hon. Members in this House, we would get into the position that a relatively small section of this House, by reason of clamour, of controversy, could exercise a veto on the wish of the Government and the desire of the great majority of this House. For that position to be tolerated in a democratic House of Commons is, I believe, unthinkable.
  Commander Sir Archibald Southby: Will the hon. Member allow me for a moment?
  Mr. McCorquodale: No, I am afraid that I cannot. I have a lot to say in a short time. I would like to make one or two points in answer to what has been said in this House. How can we send back hundreds of thousands of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and members of the A.T.S., the W.A.A.F., and the W.R.N.S. to this industry after the war, when there may be a considerable measure of control still, as indeed there is bound to be, if we cannot answer the question, which they will naturally ask, "What are we to get in the way of pay?" How can we say to a man or a woman who has come back from fighting our war for us, "You go and take a job at such and such an establishment where there is a vacancy. We cannot tell you what you will be paid. You must make the best bargain you can with your employer "? That would be intolerable. Those who are in a position to know—[An HON. MEMBER: "Who are they? "]—tell us constantly that there is one question which our Fighting Forces are constantly asking: whether practical steps are being taken to see that the jobs which so many of them will have to go back to after the war are decent jobs so far as possible. This Bill endeavours to meet that point. As a corollary, there would be nothing worse, in my view at any rate, for the morale of the troops than to learn that Parliament had refused to allow the Government to take any practical measures and decisions, and was prepared to leave these men and women to the full rigours of supply and demand after the war. Surely it would knock the whole heart and stuffing out of these people. This is a point about which I personally feel very strongly, and I would like to appeal to those who are opposing this

  1277
  Measure, if they have not thought of these things. Are they really happy in their minds or with the attitude they are taking—[Interruption]—when they consider the men and women who are in the Armed Forces, who are in the munitions industries, and with whom we have to deal after the war?
  The point has been made that, because we have put in a reference to efficiency and development in the industry, the Minister is going to dictate how the industry is to be run in individual establishments. That is awful—I apologise, I must not say "awful nonsense" in this House—quite ridiculous. These words are included in the constitution of nearly every joint industrial council which has been set up. They are in the Road Haulage Wages Act, which this House passed under a Conservative Government, and they have been most valuable. Very valuable suggestions have been received from the Road Haulage Wages Board. Suggestions will emanate from the wages boards, which will be made up of people representing both sides in the section of the trade concerned. Therefore, the recommendation will come not from the Minister but from the industry itself.
  May I make one or two remarks about the position of this Bill, as I believe, in relation to Conservative principles? I believe that some of the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Sir D. Hacking) were more in line with free trade Manchester School principles. Disraeli would turn in his grave. Remember what he said:
  "The Tory Party, unless it is a national party, is nothing."
  The Tory Party, in his view, was a party representing not any section of any trade, or even the employers generally, or the middle classes, or the working classes. We claim to be a national party, representing

  Division No. 5.

  AYES.

  Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford)

  Bartlett, C. V. O.

  Bowles, F. G.

  Adamson, W. M. (Cannock)

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P.

  Boyce, H. Leslie

  Agnew, Comdr. P. G.

  Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

  Bracken, Rt. Hon. B.

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)

  Beaumont, Hubert (Batley)

  Briscoe, Capt. Ft. G.

  Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

  Beaumont, Maj. Hn. R. E. B. (P'tsm'h)

  Broad, F. A.

  Ammon, C. G.

  Beachman, N. A.

  Brocklebank, Sir C. E. R.

  Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Sc'h Univ.)

  Beit, Sir A. L.

  Brooke, H. (Lewisham)

  Assheton, R.

  Bellenger, F. J.

  Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

  Astor, Lt.-Col. Hon. J. J. (Dover)

  Benson, G.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Astor, Visc'tess (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Bevan, A.

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

  Bevin, Rt. Hon. E.

  Buchanan, G.

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Bird, Sir R. B.

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Banfield, J. W.

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Burden, T. W.

  Barnes, A. J.

  Bossom, A. C.

  Burke, W. A.

  Barstow, P. G.

  Bower, Norman (Harrow)

  Butcher, Lieut. H. W.

  what is best in every section and walk of life in the community; and I believe it is because our party represents not any one section but the national interest that the country has so consistently placed its confidence in us. I believe that if we Conservatives depart from this national outlook, and begin to support sectional claims against the common good, we shall inevitably forfeit the confidence of the nation, and that it would be hard indeed to regain it. Disraeli also laid down as one of the points in his definition of what we should work for, "the elevation of the condition of our people." This Bill carries out that principle.
  It is for these reasons that I claim, without fear of contradiction, that this Measure is directly in line with modern Conservative thought and the principles that Conservatives have consistently supported—indeed, may I say, with the principles that unite us all in this House in these times of stress and strain. I would ask, with some confidence, for the support of the House on this Measure. The work of my right hon. Friend in the mobilisation of Britain for war is almost complete. The responsibility for planning the demobilisation of Britain—or, as some prefer to call it, the mobilisation of Britain for peace—rests on his shoulders. This Measure is part of that mobilisation, and I would ask the House to give him every support and encouragement.
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. James Stuart)The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. James Stuart) rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
  Question put, "That the Question be now put."
  The House divided: Ayes, 284; Noes, 113.

  Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A.

  Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Campbell, Sir E. T.

  Kicks, E. G.

  Poole, Captain C. C.

  Cary, R. A.

  Holdsworth, H.

  Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

  Cazalet, Col. V. A.

  Hollins, A. (Hanley)

  Price, M. P.

  Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

  Hollins, J. H. (Silvertown)

  Pym, L. R.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Holmes, J. S.

  Quibell, D. J. K.

  Chater, D.

  Horabin, T. L.

  Raikes, Flight-Lieut. H. V. A. M.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Hudson, Sir A. (Hackney, N.)

  Rathbone, Eleanor

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

  Hughes, R. M.

  Reakes, G. L. (Wallasey)

  Cobb, Captain E. C.

  Isaacs, G. A.

  Richards, R.

  Cocks, F. S.

  Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

  Ridley, G.

  Collindridge, F.

  John, W.

  Riley, B.

  Cooper, Rt. Hon. A. Duff

  Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. (St'i'g & C'km'n)

  Roberts, W.

  Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

  Johnstone, H. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Robertson, D. (Streatham)

  Cove, W. G.

  Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A.

  Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

  Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir Stafford

  Keir, Mrs. Cazalet

  Russell, Sir A. (Tynemouth)

  Critchley, A.

  Kerr, Sir John Graham (Scottish U's.)

  Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey, W.)

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Kimball, Major L.

  Sanderson, Sir F. B.

  Culverwell, C. T.

  King-Hall, Commander W. S. R.

  Sandys, E. D.

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  Kirby, B. V.

  Schuster, Sir G. E.

  Davidson, Viscountess (H'm'l H'mst'd)

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Scott, Donald (Wansbeck)

  Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

  Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

  Shinwell, E.

  Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

  Lawson, J. J.

  Silverman, S. S.

  Davies, R. J. (Wosthoughton)

  Leach, W.

  Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Leonard, W.

  Smith, E. (Steke)

  De Chair, Capt. S. S.

  Leslie, J. R.

  Smith, T. (Normanton)

  Dobbin, W.

  Lewis, O.

  Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir D. B.

  Drews, C.

  Lloyd, Major E. G. R. (Renfrew, E.)

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Dugdale, John (W. Bromwich)

  Logan, D. G.

  Stanley, Col. Rt. Hon. Oliver

  Dugdale, Major T. L. (Richmond)

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Oliver

  Stephen, C.

  Duncan, Rt. Hon. Sir A. R. (C. Ldn.)

  Mabane, W.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Dunn, E.

  McCorquodale, Malcolm S.

  Stewart, W. Joseph (H'gton-le-Spring)

  Ede, J. C.

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Storey, S.

  Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

  MsEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

  Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

  Edmondson, Major Sir J.

  Mack, J. D.

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  McKinlay, A. S.

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray & Nairn)

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  Maclean, N. (Govan)

  Summers, G. S.

  Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

  MacMillan, M. (Western Isles)

  Summerskill, Dr. Edith

  Edwards, Walter J. (Whitechapel)

  McNeill, H.

  Suteliffe, H.

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Magnay, T.

  Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

  Etherton, Ralph

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  Maitland, Sir A.

  Thomas, I. (Keighley)

  Foot, D. M.

  Makins, Brig.-Gen. Sir E.

  Thorneycroft, H. (Clayton)

  Foster, W.

  Mander, G. le M.

  Thurtle, E.

  Frankel, D.

  Markham, Major S. F.

  Tinker, J. J.

  Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

  Marlowe, Lt.-Col. A.

  Tomlinson, G.

  Fremantle, Sir F. E.

  Marshall, F.

  Tree, A. R. L. F.

  Furness, Major S. N.

  Martin, J. H.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Comdr. R. L.

  Fyfe, Major Sir D. P. M.

  Mathers, G.

  Viant, S. P.

  Gallacher, W.

  Maxton, J.

  Wakefield, W. W.

  Gammans, Capt. L. D.

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Walkden, A. G. (Bristol, S.)

  Garro Jones, G. M.

  Medlicott, Colonel Frank

  Walkden, E. (Doncaster)

  Gates, Major E. E.

  Messer, F.

  Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

  George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'broke)

  Mitchell, Colonel H. P.

  Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

  George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Molson, A. H. E.

  Waterhouse, Capt. C.

  Gibbins, J.

  Montague, F.

  Watkins, F. C.

  Gibson, Sir C. G.

  Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R.

  Watson, W. McL.

  Glyn, Sir R. G. C.

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)

  Watt, Lt.-Col. G. S. H. (Richmond)

  Granville, E. L.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

  Wedderburn, H. J. S.

  Green, W. H. (Deptford)

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Welsh, J. C.

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

  White, H. (Derby, N.E.)

  Grenfell, D. R.

  Mort, D. L.

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. (Blaydon)

  Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

  Muff, G.

  Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

  Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

  Murray, J. D.

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Grigg, Sir E. W. M. (Altrincham)

  Naylor, T. E.

  Wilmot, John

  Grigg, Rt. Hon. Sir P. J. (Cardiff, E.)

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G. (Leicester, W.).

  Wilson, C. H.

  Grimston, R. V.

  Noel-Baker, P. J.

  Windsor, W.

  Groves, T. E.

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Gruffydd, W. J.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Womersley, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Islington, N.)

  Orr-Ewing, I. L.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir K. (Woolwich, W.)

  Guy, W. H.

  Owen, Major G.

  Woodburn, A.

  Hall, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Aberdare)

  Paling, W.

  Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

  Hall, W. G. (Colne Valley)

  Palmer, G. E. H.

  Wootton-Davies, J. H.

  Hardie, Agnes

  Parker, J.

  Wright, Group Capt. J. (Erdington)

  Harris, Rt. Hon. Sir P. A.

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

  Harvey, T. E.

  Pearson, A.

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Hayday, A.

  Peat, C. U.

  Heilgers, Major F. F. A.

  Peters, Dr. S. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

  Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Mr. Boulton and Mr. J. P. L.

  Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

  Peto, Major B. A. J.

  Thomas.

  1280

  1281

  NOES.

  Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

  Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

  Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)

  Albery, Sir Irving

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  Ross Taylor, W.

  Alexander, Bg.-Gen. Sir W. (G'gow C.)

  Gritten, W. G. Howard

  Rowlands, G.

  Baillie, Sir A. W. M.

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

  Baxter, A. Beverley

  Haslam, Henry

  Salt, E. W.

  Beattie, F.

  Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

  Scott, Lord William (Ro'b'h & Selk'k)

  Bennett, Sir P. F. B. (Edgbaston)

  Henderson, J. J. Craik (Leeds, N.E.)

  Selley, H. R.

  Blair, Sir R.

  Herbert, Petty Officer A. P. (Oxford U.)

  Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

  Blaker, Sir R.

  Hewlett, T. H.

  Shaw, Capt. W. T. (Forfar)

  Boles, Lt.-Cot. D. C.

  Hopkinson, A.

  Shute, Col. Sir J. J.

  Bower, Comdr. R. T. (Cleveland)

  Howitt, Dr. A. B.

  Simmonds, O. E.

  Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckrose)

  Hunter, T.

  Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

  Brass, Capt. Sir W.

  Hurd, Sir P. A.

  Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

  James, Wing-Commander A. W. H.

  Smithers, Sir W.

  Bull, B. B.

  Jarvis, Sir J. J.

  Snadden, W. McN.

  Carver, Colonel W. H.

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)

  Somerset, T.

  Challen, Flight-Lieut. C.

  Joynson-Hicks, Lt.-Comdr. Hn. L. W.

  Southby, Comdr. Sir A. R. J.

  Channon, H.

  Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

  Strickland, Capt. W. F.

  Christie, J. A.

  Lees-Jones, J.

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (Northwich)

  Colegate, W. A.

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Studholme, Captain H. G.

  Crowder, Capt. J. F. E.

  Levy, T.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

  Davison, Sir W. H.

  Liddall, W. S.

  Sykes, Maj.-Gen. Rt. Hon. Sir F. H.

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Lipson, D. L.

  Taylor, Major C. S. (Eastbourne)

  Dodd, J. S.

  Loftus, P. C.

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'd'ton, S.)

  Doland, G. F.

  Lucas, Major Sir J. M.

  Thomas, Dr. W. S. Russell (S'th'm'tn)

  Donner, Squadron-Leader P. W.

  Lyle, Sir C. E. Leonard

  Ward, Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G.

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Watt, F. C. (Edinburgh, Cen.)

  Ellis, Sir G.

  McCallum, Major D.

  Wayland, Sir W. A.

  Elliston, Captain G. S.

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P.

  Webbe, Sir W. Harold

  Everard, Sir W. Lindsay

  Mills, Colonel J. D. (New Forest)

  Wells, Sir S. Richard

  Fildes, Sir H.

  Morris-Jones, Sir Henry

  Weston, W. Garfield

  Fox, Flight-Lieut. Sir G. W. G.

  Morrison, Major J. G. (Salisbury)

  White, Sir Dymoke (Fareham)

  Fraser, Capt. Sir Ian (Lonsdale)

  Nunn, W.

  Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

  Galbraith, Comdr. T. D.

  Perkins, W. R. D.

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Gledhill, G.

  Petherick, Major M.

  Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.)

  Gluckstein, Major L. H.

  Procter, Major H. A.

  Gower, Sir R. V.

  Purbrick, R.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

  Radford, E. A.

  Sir Douglas Hacking and

  Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

  Rankin, Sir R.

  Captain Peter Macdonald.

  Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

  Division No. 6.

  AYES.

  Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford)

  Brooke, H. (Lewisham)

  Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury)

  Adamson, W. M. (Cannock)

  Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)

  Dugdale, John (W. Bromwich)

  Agnew, Comdr. P. G.

  Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

  Dugdale, Major T. L. (Richmond)

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr'h)

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  Duncan, Rt. Hon. Sir A. R. (C. Ldn.)

  Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

  Buchanan, G.

  Dunn, E.

  Ammon, C. G.

  Bullock, Capt. M.

  Ede, J. C.

  Anderson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. (Sc'h Univ.)

  Burden, T. W.

  Eden, Rt, Hon. A.

  Assheton, R.

  Burke, W. A.

  Edmondson, Major Sir J.

  Astor, Lt.-Col. Hon. J. J. (Dover)

  Butcher, Lieut. H. W.

  Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)

  Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

  Aster, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Campbell, Sir E. T.

  Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

  Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

  Cary, R. A.

  Edwards, Walter J. (Whitechapel)

  Banfield, J. W.

  Cazalet, Col. Y. A.

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Barnes, A. J.

  Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

  Etherton, Ralph

  Barstow, P. G.

  Charleton, H. C.

  Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)

  Bartlett, C. V. O.

  Chater, D.

  Foot, D. M.

  Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P.

  Cluse, W. S.

  Foster, W.

  Beauchamp, Sir B. C.

  Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

  Frankel, D.

  Beaumont, Hubert (Batley)

  Cobb, Captain E. C.

  Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

  Beaumont, Major Hn. R. E. B. (P'ts'h)

  Cocks, F. S.

  Fremantle, Sir F. E.

  Beechman, N. A.

  Collindridge, F.

  Furness, Major S. N.

  Beit, Sir A. L.

  Cooper, Rt. Hon. A. Duff

  Fyfe, Major Sir D. P. M.

  Bellenger, F. J.

  Cove, W. G.

  Gallacher, W.

  Benson, G.

  Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir Stafford

  Gammans, Capt. L. D.

  Bevan, A.

  Critchley, A.

  Garro Jones, G. M.

  Bevin, Rt. Hon. E.

  Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

  Gates, Major E. E.

  Bird, Sir R. B.

  Culverwell, C. T.

  George, Maj. Rt. Hon. G. Lloyd (P'b'ke)

  Boothby, R. J. G.

  Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

  George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Bossom, A. C.

  Davidson, Viscountess (H'm'l H'mst'd)

  Gibbins, J.

  Bower, Norman (Harrow)

  Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)

  Glyn, Sir R. G. C.

  Bowles, F. G.

  Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

  Granville, E. L.

  Boyce, H. Leslie

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Green, W. H. (Deptford)

  Bracken, Rt. Hon. B.

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

  Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

  De Chair, Capt. S. S.

  Grenfell, D. R.

  Broad, F. A.

  Debbie, W.

  Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)

  Brocklebank, Sir C. E. R.

  Driberg, T. E. N.

  Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

  The House divided: Ayes, 283; Noes, 116.

  Grigg, Sir E. W. M. (Altrincham)

  Maitland, Sir A.

  Silverman, S. S.

  Grigg, Rt. Hon. Sir P. J. (Cardiff, E.)

  Makins, Brig.-Gen. Sir E.

  Smith, Bon (Rotherhithe)

  Grimston, R. V.

  Mander, G. le M.

  Smith, E. (Stoke)

  Groves, T. E.

  Markham, Major S. F.

  Smith, T. (Normanton)

  Gruffydd, W. J.

  Marlowe, Lt.-Col. A.

  Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir D. B.

  Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Islington, N.)

  Marshall, F.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Guy, W. H.

  Mathers, G.

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Hall, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Aberdare)

  Maxton, J.

  Stanley, Col. Rt. Hon. Oliver

  Hall, W. G. (Coins Valley)

  Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

  Stephen, C.

  Hardie, Agnes

  Msdlicott, Colonel Frank

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Harris, Rt. Hon. Sir P. A.

  Messer, F.

  Stewart, W. Joseph (H'gton-le-Spring)

  Harvey, T. E.

  Mitchell, Colonel H. P.

  Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

  Hayday, A.

  Molson A. H. E.

  Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

  Heilgers, Major F. F. A.

  Montague, F.

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

  Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R.

  Summers, G. S.

  Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

  Morgan, Dr. H. B. W. (Rochdale)

  Summerskill, Dr. Edith

  Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

  Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Universities)

  Sutcliffe, H.

  Hicks, E. G.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)

  Tate, Mavis C.

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

  Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

  Hogg, Hon. Q. McG.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Holdsworth, H.

  Mort, D. L.

  Thomas, I. (Keighley)

  Hollins, A. (Hanley)

  Muff, G.

  Thorneycroft, Major G. E. P. (Stafford)

  Hollins, J. H. (Silvertown)

  Murray, J. D.

  Thorneycroft, H. (Clayton)

  Holmes, J. S.

  Naylor, T. E.

  Thurtle, E.

  Horabin, T. L.

  Nicolson, Hon. H. G. (Leicester, W.)

  Tinker, J. J.

  Hudson, Sir A. (Hackney, N.)

  Noel-Baker, P. J.

  Tomlinson, G.

  Hughes, R. M.

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Tree, A. R. L. F.

  Isaacs, G. A.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Comdr. R. L.

  Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)

  Owen, Major G.

  Viant, S. P.

  John, W.

  Paling, W.

  Wakefield, W. W.

  Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. (Stl'g & C'ktn'n)

  Palmer, G. E. H.

  Walkden, A. G. (Bristol, S.)

  Johnstone, H. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Parker, J.

  Walkden, E. (Doncaster)

  Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A.

  Peake, Rt. Hon. O.

  Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)

  Keir, Mrs. Cazalet

  Pearson, A.

  Waterhouse, Capt. C.

  Kerr, Sir John Graham (Scottish U's)

  Peat, C. U.

  Watkins, F. C.

  King-Hall, Commander W. S. R.

  Peters, Dr. S. J.

  Watson, W. McL.

  Kirby, B. V.

  Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

  Watt, Lt.-Col. G. S. H. (Richmond)

  Lamb, Sir J. Q.

  Peto, Major B. A. J.

  Wedderburn, H. J. S.

  Law, Rt. Hon. R. K.

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Welsh, J. C.

  Lawson, J. J.

  Pools, Captain C. C.

  White, H. (Derby, N.E.)

  Leach, W.

  Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. (Blaydon)

  Leonard, W.

  Price, M. P.

  Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

  Leslie, J. R.

  Pym, L. R

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Lewis, O.

  Quibell, D. J. K.

  Wilmot, John

  Linstead, H. N.

  Raikes, Flight-Lieut. H. V. A. M.

  Wilson, C. H.

  Lloyd, Major E. G. R. (Renfrew, E.)

  Rathbons, Eleanor

  Windsor, W.

  Locker-Lampson, Commander O. S.

  Reakes, G. L. (Wallasey)

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Logan, D. G.

  Richards, R.

  Womersley, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

  Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Oliver

  Ridley, G.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir K. (W'lwich, W.)

  Mabane, W.

  Rlley, B.

  Woodburn, A.

  McCorquodale, Malcolm S.

  Roberts, W.

  Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Robertson, D. (Streatham)

  Wootton-Davies, J. H.

  McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

  Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)

  Wright, Group Capt. J. (Erdington)

  Mack, J. D.

  Russell, Sir A. (Tynemouth)

  Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

  McKinlay, A. S.

  Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey, W.)

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Maclean, N. (Govan)

  Sanderson, Sir F. B.

  MacMillan, M. (Western Isles)

  Sandys, E. D.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  McNeil, H.

  Schuster, Sir G. E.

  Mr. Boulton and Mr. B. P. L.

  Magnay, T.

  Scott, Donald (Wansbeck)

  Thomas.

  Mainwaring, W. H.

  Shinwell, E.

  NOES.

  Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.

  Davison, Sir W. H.

  Gridley, Sir A. B.

  Albery, Sir Irving

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Gritten, W. G. Howard

  Alexander, Bg.-Gen. Sir W. (G'gow, O.)

  Dodd, J. S.

  Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

  Baillie, Sir A. W. M.

  Doland, G. F.

  Haslam, Henry

  Baxter, A. Beverley

  Donner, Squadron-Leader P. W.

  Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

  Beattie, F.

  Dower, Lt.-Col A. V. G.

  Henderson, J. J. Craik (Leeds, N.E.)

  Bennett, Sir P. F. B. (Edgbaston)

  Drewe, C.

  Hewlett, T. H.

  Blair, Sir R.

  Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. (Kens'gt'n, N.)

  Howitt, Dr. A. B.

  Blaker, Sir R.

  Ellis, Sir G.

  Hunter, T.

  Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C.

  Elliston, Captain G. S.

  Hurd, Sir P. A.

  Bower, Comdr. R. T. (Cleveland)

  Everard, Sir W. Lindsay

  Jarvis, Sir J. J.

  Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckross)

  Fildes, Sir H.

  Jewson, P. W.

  Brass, Capt. Sir W.

  Fox, Flight-Lieut. Sir G. W. G.

  Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k Newington)

  Drown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

  Frassr, Capt. Sir Ian (Lonsdale)

  Joynson-Hicks, Lt.-Comdr. Hn. L. W.

  Bull, B. B.

  Galbraith, Comdr. T. D.

  Kimball, Major L.

  Carver, Colonel W. H.

  Gibson, Sir O. G.

  Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.

  Challen, Flight-Lieut. C.

  Gledhill, G.

  Lees-Jones, J.

  Channon, H.

  Gluckstein, Major L. H.

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Christie, J. A.

  Gower, Sir R. V.

  Levy, T.

  Colegate, W. A.

  Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)

  Liddall, W. S.

  Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.

  Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

  Lipson, D. L.

  Crowder, Capt. J. F. E.

  Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.

  Loftus, P. C.

  1284

  1285

  Lyle, Sir C. E. Leonard

  Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

  Taylor, Captain C. S. (Eastbourne)

  MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

  Salt, E. W.

  Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'd'ton,

  McCallum, Major D.

  Scott, Lord William (Ra'b'h & Selk'k)

  Thomas, Dr. W. S, Russell (S'th'm'tn)

  Mellor, Sir J. S. P.

  Selley, H. R.

  Ward, Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Mills, Colonel J. D. (New Forest)

  Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)

  Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.

  Morris-Jones, Sir Henry

  Shaw, Capt. W. T. (Forfar)

  Watt, F. C. (Edinburgh, Can.)

  Morrison, Major J. G. (Salisbury)

  Shuts, Col. Sir J. J.

  Wayland, Sir W. A.

  Nall, Sir J.

  Simmonds, O. E.

  Webbe, Sir W. Harold

  Nunn, W.

  Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

  Wells, Sir S. Richard

  Perkins, W. R. D.

  Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

  Weston, W. Garfield

  Petherick, Major M.

  Smithers, Sir W.

  White, Sir Dymoke (Fareham)

  Procter, Major H. A.

  Snadden, W. McN.

  Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

  Purbrick, R.

  Somerset, T.

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Radford, E. A.

  Southby, Comd. Sir A. R. J.

  Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.)

  Rankin, Sir R.

  Strickland, Capt. W. F.

  Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)

  Studholme, Captain H. G.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Ross Taylor, W.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.

  Sir Douglas Hacking and

  Rowlands, G.

  Sykes, Maj.-Gen. Rt. Hon. Sir F. H.

  Captain Peter Macdonald.

  Sir D. Hacking: In view of the figures in this Division, may I ask the Leader of the House whether he is not now satisfied that there is controversy?
  Bill read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House, for the next Sitting Day.—[Major Sir James Edmondson.]

  CATERING WAGES [MONEY]
  Considered in Committee, under Standing Order No. 69.
  [Major MILNEE in the Chair]
  Resolved,
  "That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision for regulating the remuneration and conditions of employment
  1286
  of catering and other workers and, in connection therewith, for their health and welfare and the efficiency and development of the industries in which they are employed, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the expenses of the Minister of Labour and National Service in carrying the said Act into effect and any expenses authorised by that Minister with the consent of the Treasury to be incurred by the Commission or any wages board established under the said Act or any committee appointed thereunder."—(King's Recommendation signified.)—[Mr. Bevin.]
  Resolution to he reported upon the next Sitting Day.

  CATERING WAGES [MONEY]

    ADJOURNMENT
    Resolved,
    "That this House do now adjourn."—[Sir J. Edmondson.]

PUBLIC HEALTH
  Tuberculosis (Hospital Accommodation, Lancashire)
  Tuberculosis (Hospital Accommodation, Lancashire)
  Venereal Disease (Treatment)
  Venereal Disease (Treatment)
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS
  Ministry of Health (Consultant Advisory Staff)
  Ministry of Health (Consultant Advisory Staff)
  Overseas Trade Department (Staff)
  Overseas Trade Department (Staff)
  FIRE GUARD DUTIES (EX-SERVICE MEN)
  FIRE GUARD DUTIES (EX-SERVICE MEN)
NATIONAL WAR EFFORT
  Essential Work Order (Mining Industry)
  Essential Work Order (Mining Industry)
  Brewing and Distilling Industry
  Brewing and Distilling Industry
  Small Businesses (Employees)
  Small Businesses (Employees)
  Appointments Office, Sheffield
  Appointments Office, Sheffield
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Medical Book (Importation)
  Medical Book (Importation)
  Registered Designs (Fees)
  Registered Designs (Fees)
  Closed Businesses (Post-War Reopening)
  Closed Businesses (Post-War Reopening)
FOOD SUPPLIES
  Industrial Concentration Schemes
  Industrial Concentration Schemes
  Fish (Distribution)
  Fish (Distribution)
  Vitamin B Foods (Restricted Manufacture)
  Vitamin B Foods (Restricted Manufacture)
  BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR, FAR EAST
  BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR, FAR EAST
  MILITARY BANDS (BROADCASTS)
  MILITARY BANDS (BROADCASTS)
ARMED FORCES
  Family Allowances (Special Separation Grant Scheme)
  Family Allowances (Special Separation Grant Scheme)
  Local Authority Employees (Allowances)
  Local Authority Employees (Allowances)
  POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION (LOCAL AUTHORITIES)
  POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION (LOCAL AUTHORITIES)
  MINISTERS OF THE GROWN (CABINET RANK)
  MINISTERS OF THE GROWN (CABINET RANK)
SCOTLAND
  Infant Mortality (Committee's Report)
  Infant Mortality (Committee's Report)
  Transport (Delivery Rationalisation Schemes)
  Transport (Delivery Rationalisation Schemes)
  Universities (Full-Time Students)
  Universities (Full-Time Students)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  British Restaurant Profits (Taxation)
  British Restaurant Profits (Taxation)
  War Damage Repairs
  War Damage Repairs
  Purchase Tax
  Purchase Tax
  Geological Research (Public Expenditure)
  Geological Research (Public Expenditure)
  Flower-Growers (Subsidy)
  Flower-Growers (Subsidy)
  RAILWAY STATIONS (GAS-LIGHTS)
  RAILWAY STATIONS (GAS-LIGHTS)
  RAILWAY CLERKS, CARDIFF (PROMOTIONS)
  RAILWAY CLERKS, CARDIFF (PROMOTIONS)
FUEL AND POWER
  Coalmines, Monmouthshire
  Coalmines, Monmouthshire
  Collieries, Durham County (Canteens)
  Collieries, Durham County (Canteens)
  Collieries (Public Control)
  Collieries (Public Control)
  Pit Ponies, Conveyors and Power Loaders (Statistics)
  Pit Ponies, Conveyors and Power Loaders (Statistics)
  WEST INDIES (B.B.C. APPOINT MENT)
  WEST INDIES (B.B.C. APPOINT MENT)
  FIJI (MEDICAL SCHOOL, SUVA)
  FIJI (MEDICAL SCHOOL, SUVA)
  TRINIDAD (PROSECUTION)
  TRINIDAD (PROSECUTION)
  GOLD COAST (COCOA TREES, DISEASE)
  GOLD COAST (COCOA TREES, DISEASE)
Preamble
The House met, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
GRAND UNION CANAL BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed: the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
LIVERPOOL HYDRAULIC POWER BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed.
CARDIFF CORPORATION BILL BILL [H.L.]
Committed: the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
POLICE (APPEALS) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; and read 1ª.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend, the Lord Privy Seal (Viscount Cranborne), I beg to move the Motion which stands in his name.
Moved, That the sitting of the House to consider the Motion of the Lord Beaverbrook be in Secret Session.—(Lord Snell.)
LORD BEAVERBROOK: My Lords, I will detain you for a very few moments only on this Motion. I regard the Secret Session as unnecessary, and it is on that basis that I ask for your attention. Nothing that I say need he concealed from the public, and if the public seek to influence policy then of course they must know the arguments which public men advance. This is especially so in the case of the present debate. I intend to make no criticism of the Ministry of Aircraft Production or of any Minister, but if the Government still believe that a Secret Session would better serve the interest of the nation I am ready, and must be ready, to abide by their decision and to accept their view. Here let me say that I accept it all the more readily because
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of the new significance which attaches at the present time to this House and to its deliberations. The fullest discussion by your Lordships of every vital aspect of the war, even though that discussion remains undisclosed to the public, must be a valuable and indeed a necessary feature of the conduct of the war, for your Lordships have to-day a far greater influence and power than you have exercised at any time in the past thirty years.
A change has now occurred in the constitutional structure of this country, a change which has profound and far-reaching consequences. Like previous constitutional developments it has taken place almost unnoticed and without any particular enactment. The changes are four-fold. One is that the House of Commons no longer represents the constituencies in the ordinary sense. The Commons have prolonged their own lives by Statute, and they have co-opted nearly one hundred members into their body without consultation with the electorate. The House of Commons was elected in 1935 on issues far different from those which confront the nation to-day. The majority of the members of the House of Commons were elected on peace issues and to preserve the limitation of arms. Their mandate, which they annually decide to renew, is no longer valid. The Socialists conduct their chief debates and make their chief decisions, not in the House of Commons, but in private meetings. The voting in the Lobbies is decided beforehand. Another point is that the continued existence of this Parliament is dependent upon the decision of this House. The adjustment of power made by the Parliament Act is now reversed. If the House of Lords refuse to continue the life of Parliament an appeal to the constituencies would become necessary.
I do not either approve or disapprove of this changed state of affairs; I only note that it has happened. I myself am a House of Commons man, and I realize the limitations of this House; yet the fact of the unseen constitutional revolution remains, and your Lordships must discharge this new duty that is imposed upon you. Here in this House resides the power and the authority to prolong this Parliament or to end it, and where power is there must go responsibility. It is for these reasons that I accept the opportunity

949
of speaking in Secret Session with just as urgent a desire to lay my facts before you as if I had the opportunity to speak to the public as well as to your Lordships.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, before the question is put, I am wondering whether the Deputy Leader of the House would say something in reply to the very effective speech which my noble friend has made. He has drawn attention to the constitutional position, in which there exists a certain amount of danger in relation to those ideas that are all in our minds, and some of us feel that the decision for an easy get-out by means of a Secret Session is perhaps taken too lightly. As the noble Lord who has just addressed us said, we all abide by the decision to go into Secret Session because it is the decision of those who still advise us. Therefore I should like the Deputy Leader of the House to tell us the reason why we are to go into Secret Session. Personally I would far sooner that the arguments which are to be put forward were made and debated in public rather than in Secret Session.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I did not know that this Motion was to be the subject of debate, but I would remind your Lordships that some weeks ago my noble friend Lord Winster had a Motion on the Paper in practically the same words as those of the Motion of Lord Beaverbrook, and the Government then, in spite of our protests, insisted on taking the Motion in Secret Session. As we protested very vehemently against the proposal to take Lord Winster's Motion in Secret Session, it would not be proper to let this occasion pass without some protest, and I take the opportunity of making it.
LORD BRABAZON OF TARA: My Lords, it is, I am sure, very gratifying to your Lordships' House to have heard the very interesting views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, but it seems to me that it does put us in an increasingly difficult situation, if our deliberations are to become so important relatively to the other House, that we are always going to be put into Secret Session whereas they debate in public. I understand that the Opposition, or what remains of the Opposition, in another place, will put down the Ministry of Aircraft
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Production Vote at a future date, and there is no doubt it will be taken in public. Yet we in the House of Lords are compelled to debate this matter in secret. I feel that this anomaly really must be taken in hand by the Government, so that our House shall not be handicapped as it is being handicapped relative to another place. That was the protest I made a fortnight ago, and I repeat it to-day because I think it is becoming too ridiculous that one House should be able to debate a subject in public while the other is compelled to debate it in secret.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, this is a very familiar discussion which your Lordships have been accustomed to hear as to whether we should debate in Secret Session or not. It is for the noble Lord who wishes to address your Lordships on a matter of this kind, and to bring it before the House and the country, to decide whether he wants to speak in secret or not, and if he does not speak in your Lordships' House he has abundant opportunity elsewhere to convey to the public what he wants to say; but as to what the Government can reply—and I am the last man in your Lordships' House to know what they are going to reply—they are certainly able to speak to us much more openly in Secret Session than in public. Upon one recent occasion when the matter was discussed and protest was made, the debate, notwithstanding, took place in secret, and it was quite obvious to your Lordships when the debate took place that it it had not been in secret the Government statement could not have been made. There were so many things which they were clearly not able to state in public that, but for the fact that the debate was in secret, there would have been no sufficient statement from the Government. It is a matter entirely for the Government. If they tell your Lordships that they have certain things which they can say but which cannot be said in public, I do not think your Lordships have any choice. You have absolute power, of course, but no reasonable people should resist the Motion in such circumstances. I am not one of those who like Secret Sessions—we none of us like Secret Sessions if we can possibly avoid them—but I hope your Lordships will realize that it is for the Government, with which I have nothing to do, to decide. The noble Lord, who no

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doubt will make a most interesting speech on the subject, has, as I have stated, abundant opportunity elsewhere.
THÉ LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON): My Lords, may I be allowed to say a few words before this preliminary discussion comes to an end? I should be sorry if this preliminary discussion were unduly prolonged, but what has just been said by the noble Marquess is very much in my mind. I do not intend to say anything about the last occasion when we had a Secret Session, except this, that I think those of your Lordships who were then present, as I was present, will bear out what has just been said by the noble Marquess. It would have been quite impossible for the Government statement to be made on that occasion as it was, with great fullness of information, save under conditions of secrecy. On the present occasion there is the point mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, that a similar Motion was contested, but was accepted by the House a fortnight ago, that this particular subject was one which, if discussed, must be discussed in Secret Session. For my part I have no prejudice in favour of Secret Sessions at all. The whole of my instincts, the whole of my House of Commons tradition, are entirely in the other scale. I agree with what the noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, said on that account. I agree also with something that the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, said in his interesting speech. I think it is true, and I rejoice that it should be true, that public debates in your Lordships' House are debates well worthy of its great tradition, and take a very important place in public discussion in this country. But there must be occasions on which there must be a Secret Session if a particular topic is brought up and is to be adequately answered. I hope that your Lordships—especially as the noble Lord, Lord Beaverbrook, does not oppose but is willing to accept the decision of the Government—will agree that on this occasion the debate must be in secret.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

COLONIAL ADMINISTRATION.
VISCOUNT TRENCHARD VISCOUNT TRENCHARD rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they
952
have any statement to make on the methods of staffing and administering the Colonial Empire; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, nearly nine months ago I put down a similar Motion and there was an interesting debate. My noble friends Lord Hailey and Lord Moyne and others took part. The present Leader of the House was then Secretary of State for the Colonies. Now we have a new Colonial Minister. At the time of that debate, last May, the Government were not ready to give an answer to my question and, in fact I think the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, would have preferred me to postpone the matter, but I wanted to have a debate so that the Government should hear the views of other noble Lords as well as my own views. I remember that the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, said then that it was very remarkable what a great measure of agreement was reached in that debate between people who, on any ordinary question of politics, might not see eye to eye; but he added that he could not be expected to declare the policy of the Government on matters so far-reaching and fundamental to the future of our Empire.
My speech on that occasion raised five points: (1), Recruitment of the Colonial Civil Service; (2), organization of the Colonial Civil Service into a single interchangeable and independent Service; (3), the establishment of a Colonial Staff College; (4), the creation of a Colonial Advisory Board; and (5), the grouping of Colonies into larger groups. The object of my raising these points now, nine months later, is to ask whether the Government can state more definitely whether progress has been made on these matters. In the interim since the debate we have had a most interesting discussion on Colonial policy raised on December 3 last by my noble friend the Earl of Listowel. The noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, in reply made an inspiring and useful speech on how the Colonial Empire had been developed and the progress it was making to-day. The noble Earl who introduced the Motion made, if I may say so, an extraordinarily interesting speech with much of which I thoroughly agreed, but there was one remark of his to which I would like to refer to-day because it expressed the view of a large number of other speakers

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in the debate without, I venture to suggest, sufficient justification. The noble Earl said, amongst other things:
"We can now atone for our past neglect by pledging ourselves to an unprecedented expansion of all essential services as soon as peace returns."
I would like to comment for a moment on that expression, "past neglect."
It must be admitted, of course, that in Colonial administration, as indeed in all other questions, we have not done all we could; but when you review all we have done, how we have brought civilization and civilized government to many of the most backward races of the world, I submit that in this broad review we are entitled to great credit. We regret, of course, the inevitable mistakes we have made, but there is nothing in our Colonial record, as a whole, which calls on us to approach the question as sinners seeking to make atonement. I am one of those who went to Africa many years ago—over forty years ago in my case. In those days human sacrifice was rife, cannibalism was indulged in mainly because it was thought that if you ate your enemy you would transfer the virtues of his body to your own. In other words if they ate a white man they would be as good as a white man. And unfortunately it happened that they killed and ate one of the bearers who was with me in one of my columns. There were no roads in those days, only tracks like animal tracks on which you had to walk in single file with soldiers to protect you, and these tracks twisted and turned in the most bewildering fashion. As I say, these tracks were more like animal tracks than roads. More often than not men and women would be waylaid, captured and often killed by unpleasant means. People lived in stockaded and walled towns. They dared not go away from their villages for any distance, and freedom did not exist. The part of Africa to which I am referring was dense bush and in it nobody was safe. Certainly it was often unsafe for anybody, and in particular for any European, to go to draw water without an escort. Intertribal fighting was constant and never ceased.
Think of all of these countries now. There is absolute local peace. Roads are open and there are no walled or stockaded towns. These have crumbled into dust or ruins. Civilization has come, perhaps
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more rapidly than it can be absorbed in some respects; but respect for human life has been learnt and fear of the consequences of what may happen if human life is not respected is now widespread. All this has been done by British brains, British money and British spirit assisted by the wonderful West African soldier who early realized what civilization meant through his contact with the British officers and British N.C.O's of those days. Some noble Lords have, at times, suggested that we have concentrated too much on the economic side, on the material development of progress and on trade. I would like to argue that we have done the reverse and that it is on the economic side that we have shown shortcomings. Because, if we have succeeded in one respect more than in any other it is in that great work of instilling into the minds of all those people that spirit of freedom for the individual and the community on which democracy is founded. And this has been done in a very short time. When we first went to those countries there was no such thing as freedom for the individual. Yet now the cause of many of our difficulties to-day is the fact that people have absorbed the spirit and traditions for which we stand, such as freedom of thought and belief in democracy, who are not yet qualified to apply this knowledge. This, I say, is the very measure of the success with which we have imbued them with our ideas.
These views have been strongly supported in America in a pamphlet published, I agree, as long ago as last May. It was published under the auspices of Mr. Henry Luce, by Mr. Buell, reporting the findings of a committee of the editors of the American papers Time, Life and Fortune. I quote their exact words because I think that what was said by that committee was rather remarkable:
"Yet with its share of stupidities and errors and despite its tragic failure to settle the Irish question, Britain used its power to create a world climate that was congenial to the advance of liberty."
The pamphlet went on to say:
"Had not Britain exercised its military and economic power to maintain order, less humane Powers would almost certainly have done so or the greater part of the world would have remained under decadent despotisms."
I do not want to read too much of this and to weary your Lordships, but I think it is important that it should be realized

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by your Lordships what is being said in America. The report went on to say:
"Throughout the British Colonies the Open Door of equality of treatment was largely the rule. Britain allowed a German or other foreign merchant to trade on the same basis as an Englishman, thus reducing any economic justification for seizing British territory. In short, through a combination of naval supremacy and an enlightened Governmental policy, Britain maintained international stability and confidence, making possible a great economic expansion which benefited, at least materially, not only Britain but the entire world. This helps to explain why no major war was fought between 1815 and 1914. And during most of that amazing century the ideas of democracy were nearly everywhere advancing."
Now that came from America. Those are the opinions of a committee, not of British people but of impartial inquirers who have made exhaustive inquiry into our Colonial administration. They do not speak, as many have done in this country, of "past neglect" or of any outstanding question of "atonement."
Some of our critics abroad seem to think that we make money out of our Colonies and that this has governed our policy. In some cases, it has even been suggested that if we were to take off some commodity or personal taxes it would show that England was not intending to enrich herself at the expense of the Colonies. This is often thought by many foreign critics and by certain people in the United States. It is true, surely, to say—indeed I am certain of it—that not a single African or Indian living or working in the Colonies pays any tax to the British Treasury, nor does any Colonial Government pay over any tax to the British Treasury. This is a fact which cannot be too widely known abroad and also in this country. I was very glad to see it stated and clearly emphasized by Professor Goodhart in the American Outpost, a paper published in January by Americans in Britain. It is, of course, true to say that commercial firms have made profits by trading in the Colonies. On the other hand, I think it can be safely said that these profits have not been in excess of that ordinary interest which is necessary to justify the capital at stake. On the whole, these profits have been precarious and varied with losses, which people are so apt to forget when they look at profits. The losses have been much heavier than people realize. But the loss to the shareholders is not a loss to the
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country in which the money was invested. Investigation will show, too, that the profits are not only small in comparison with the capital risked in the country but are small compared with the benefits they have given to the country which, it must be remembered, can never be taken out. But I think it will be desirable perhaps in the future that some system of taxation should be devised whereby the taxation on the profits is divided so that a greater proportion goes to the revenue of the country in which the trade originates.
I fully endorse Lord Listowel's hope when he said that:
"National Independence in time to come surely does not mean that the non-European world will be broken up into an even greater number of small States which was exactly what happened, with fatal consequences, on the Continent of Europe, at the end of the last war."
I am also in full agreement with his remark that "standards of health and nutrition throughout these territories"—referring of course to the Colonies—"could not improve appreciably so long as they were expected to live on their own meagre resources." He went on to say that he believed that "this paralysing survival of laissez faire was jettisoned for good by the Colonial Welfare and Development Act." That is a far-reaching Act which, though all too small, as both the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, will agree, is a very good start towards developing these Colonies.
In my previous speech I suggested that an important line of advance was to appoint as soon as possible to responsible posts the local inhabitants who, for the sake of simplicity in that debate, I called Africans. This suggestion was taken up rather largely in the local Press in West Africa and elsewhere. I should like to emphasize that these appointments must depend a great deal on how quickly the local inhabitants have developed a sense of responsibility, and how soon they have become, in thought and mind, qualified and competent to accept that responsibility. I want to repeat what I have said before, that for some time yet some of the Africans will not be as competent as the Europeans whom they will replace, but they will learn only if this development is carried out. But it must be carried out slowly, and in some cases very slowly. Even if progress is as good as we would wish in the future, for many

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more years the British Empire will still have to provide the nucleus of the Colonial Service, and help tile people forward on the path which we hope they will tread. As the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, said:
"It is proper for them to remain for a period, and perhaps for a period of generations, under the ægis of a great Power which can provide them with the advantages derived from wide experience in statesmanship and administration, and give them the support of great financial resources and military power."
I wish now to refer to the method of recruitment of Europeans for the Colonial Service, which is still the backbone of efficient Government administration. I referred to this at some length in my previous speech, suggesting three sources. The first is the traditional type of young men from the universities, between 22 and 24 years of age. Secondly, boys of 18 or so on leaving school, provided they can give proof of being sufficiently well educated. I remember stipulating here that there should be no arbitrary insistence on the possession of certificates or diplomas, and I was glad on that occasion that the noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, gave the assurance that this should be so. Thirdly, recruits should be drown from the first two classes I have mentioned, who should enter the Service much later, up to the age of 30, when they would have gained working experience of the world and could be judged on practical achievement. In my opinion, recruits should be taken equally from each of those three groups—one-third from the universities, one-third from young men leaving school, and one-third from older men up to 30.
The proposals made a short time ago for the reform of the Foreign Office have, I am glad to say, much in common with the suggestions which I made for the Colonial Service. Their system of recruitment is to be recast to make entry possible for all types, and their aim is to have wider training and equality of opportunity for all. A maximum of 25 per cent. are to be chosen not strictly on an examination basis, and up to two candidates annually are to be taken from those between the normal age limit and 30, as I have suggested for the Colonial Service. There is another principle which I suggested for the Colonial Service and which the Foreign Office is proposing. The report in The Times says:
"The efficiency of the Service has suffered from the disparity in conditions of service as
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between posts at home and abroad and the new combined Service will be entirely separated from the Home Civil Service, and will be treated as a self-contained and distinct Service of the Crown."
My own words last May were:
"The Colonial Service, at home and abroad, should comprise a single interchangeable Service, independent of the rest of the Civil Service."
The points of resemblance between the Foreign Service and the Colonial Service are greater than between the Colonial Service and the remainder of the present Home Civil Service. I feel sure that the Treasury, having accepted the principle and the money involved for the Foreign Office, must now agree to the same thing for the Colonial Empire, the most important of all. It is more than ever necessary to shoulder the cost of these improvements.
I went on to propose the establishment of what I called a Colonial Staff College, to be attended by all able and promising members of the Service, from home and overseas, at the age of 35 or thereabouts, with the object of bringing them into contact with each other and with the outside world, and to broaden their outlook, to stimulate their enthusiasm and to make them progressive and constructive. The more they can learn of such subjects as commerce, industry, transport and shipping, the less likelihood there will be of the present attitude of suspicion and aloofness towards traders. For this programme it is necessary to stimulate and focus public interest on the Colonies, and bring informed opinion to bear on them. This can be done, in my opinion, only by a representative Colonial Council.
There has been much discussion on various forms of Advisory Committees. Speeches have been made and articles written from which it appears that my proposal was a little misunderstood. I had no intention of setting up a board to advise on every subject dealing with Colonial administration; I had in mind the setting up of an Economic Advisory Council which would deal in the broadest outline with the necessary economic development of the Colonies. For instance, had such a body been in existence in 1934 it would have been in a position to expose the lack of foresight of the Nigerian Government with regard to the development of civil aviation. As it was, the local Government wrote, even as late as 1934, when the whole world was flying,

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that it fully appreciated the advantages of an air service, but was not prepared at the moment to commit itself to the provision of an expensive, permanent—mark the word "permanent"—landing-ground at Lagos or elsewhere. Again, if this Council had been in existence the delay in starting the building of Takoradi harbour would have been shortened by years. As it was, it had to wait until that great man, Major Guggisberg, arrived there, more or less as an outsider, not coming from the Colonial Service, and forced the construction of that harbour. And the Council would consider such questions as whether there should be more roads or railways or both in various parts of Africa in order to open up the country more. I do not want to detain your Lordships, but I should like to mention that five years ago I found that the road from one of the ports was blocked so that the railway could benefit, and elsewhere the same sort of tiling was to be found. It was not until just before this war that those roads were opened. I am glad that they were opened just in time, for we need all the communications we can have.
I never meant that this Economic Advisory Council, to which I know the noble Lord, Lord Wedgwood objects, should deal with such subjects as education, health and all the other different activities of government in any way whatever. I based my original suggestion on a Government Committee which was set up in 1918, under the chairmanship of Lord Haldane, to inquire into the "responsibilities of various departments of the Central Executive Government and to advise in what manner the exercise and distribution by the Government of its functions could be improved." That Committee was an extraordinarily powerful one, composed of men of great capacity, and not idealists—men who knew what was wanted, men like Lord Haldane, Mr. Montagu, Sir Robert Morant and Sir George Murray. They recommended that:
"The preservation of the full responsibility of Ministers for executive action will not, in our opinion, ensure that the course of administration which they adopt will secure and retain public confidence, unless it is recognized as an obligation upon Departments to avail themselves of the advice and assistance of advisory bodies so constituted as to make available the knowledge and experience of all sections of the community affected by the activities of the Department."
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They went on to say:
"So long as advisory bodies are not permitted to impair the full responsibility of Ministers to Parliament, we think that the more they are regarded as an integral part of the normal organization of a Department, the more will Ministers be enabled to command the confidence of Parliament and the public in their administration of the Services."
This, I feel certain, is correct. That advice is sound, if one is to avoid professional isolationism, when applied to the broad questions of economic development of the Colonies.
I tried to make it clear before that the Council I suggested would strengthen the hands of the Colonial Secretary, and also of Parliament. The members of the Council would, of course, be appointed by the Secretary of State. The membership should be mainly unofficial and nonpolitical, and it would be for the Secretary of State to decide whether to publish their reports or not—though I personally hope that generally he would publish them. The noble Viscount, Lord Cranborne, who was then the Colonial Minister, was rather doubtful at that time whether it would be possible to keep it outside the arena of politics if it were to make annual or periodic reports to Parliament. I do not, however, consider the presentation of those reports to Parliament to be so important—though it is important—as the actual appointment of a Council, the creation of which to my mind is long overdue. And I would earnestly ask the noble Duke whether he will represent these proposals to the Government. They have already been very strongly supported and, if I remember rightly, Lord Hailey, among others, supported them in the discussion that day.
Finally, I come to the grouping of Colonies into areas under Governors-General. It seems to me that a step has been taken in this direction by the appointment as a war-time measure of a Minister of State in West Africa. When I last spoke to your Lordships on this Colonial subject, I referred to my last, and my first, visit to Africa. Since then I have had the opportunity again of visiting it. At the end of October last year I had the privilege of being able to fly all through Nigeria, the Gold Coast, Liberia, Sierra Leone and The Gambia. I also flew through Iraq, Palestine and Egypt. The Official Report of the debate in your Lordships' House had been widely publicized, and was the subject of discussion

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everywhere I went. In going through West Africa this time I found everyone agreed on one point: that the war experiment, if I may so call it, namely, the appointment of Lord Swinton as Minister of State in West Africa, was a wise and necessary step. Not only did I hear on all sides that Lord Swinton was doing his job well, but there was universal approval of the idea of sending a Minister of State to that country. This only shows that it would be an advantage to group the Colonies together, and it seems that we are progressing towards that desirable end. I hope the Government can assure us that they are going to continue on similar lines in the future.
May I add one word on this point of grouping the Colonies together? Nothing is going to be more important than the means of transport and communication between the various Colonies themselves and the Mother Country. The noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, has a Notice about air transport on the Paper for tomorrow, but I must not enlarge on that; but I do hope that the Colonial Office and the Colonies themselves will see to the full development and utilization of civil aviation at the earliest; moment that circumstances permit. There is nothing that can play a bigger part in helping to solve these Colonial problems than quick transport and communication. I hope the noble Duke will be able to tell the House what progress has been made in the methods of staffing and administering the Colonial Empire. I beg to move.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, the noble Viscount was good enough to inform me beforehand that he intended to take me gently to task for adverting, during the last debate in this House on the Colonies, to what might be called the seamy side of our Colonial record. I should like, if I may, to remind him that in drawing attention to this aspect of past history I have kept good company. The noble Lord, Lord Moyne, when he was Secretary of State, referred in public to the backward areas in the Colonies as "our neglected estates," and, listening very carefully to the noble Viscount's speech—listening to what he said, and not reading between the lines—it seemed to me that he was himself very far from being uncritical, and that he pointed out quite a number of defects, both of policy and organization, for which he suggested some extremely
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interesting remedies. The reason why I have regarded it as more profitable to dwell upon the shortcomings rather than upon the undoubted benefits of our Colonial record—benefits which the noble Viscount has described so comprehensively in his speech, and which no unbiased person could fail to recognize—is that the shortcomings are what teach us the changes which are needed after the war and the immediate reforms that might be taken in hand. Complacency is a far greater danger than discontent.
It is, I think, a peculiarly opportune moment to discuss the staffing and training of our Colonial administration, and I think we owe a very great debt to the noble Viscount for giving us this opportunity. The forward policy for which we are all looking after the war and which is, to some extent, being anticipated by actual events in the Colonies, will certainly depend for its success upon the personnel at home and overseas—in the Colonial Services and at the Colonial Office. These men, and perhaps women, must be properly equipped to deal with the increasingly complex problems presented by the modernizing of primitive economic systems, by the steady growth of social services, and by more rapid constitutional and political progress throughout the Dependencies and the Colonies.
May I put forward one or two practical suggestions? There is, I think, some scope for improvement—and indeed this point has been emphasized by the noble Viscount—in the training of our excellent officials at the Colonial Office. Like the staffs of other Government Departments, they are at present recruited simply and solely by the Home Civil Service examination. This undoubtedly ensures a high level of intelligence and a useful background of general culture. But methods of training should keep pace with the times, and a university education does not give either practical experience of conditions in the Colonies or a technical knowledge of the many and varied subjects with which an official at the Colonial Office may be expected at some time or other in his career to have to deal. The first of these defects has fairly recently been remedied, in part at least, by the practice of sending junior officials for a couple of years to a Colony, but it is vital that when sent out they should stay long enough to get a real grasp of work in the field, and that they should visit

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Colonies differing as widely as possible in social structure and political development. Beyond this useful and salutary innovation little has been done to counter-set the purely academic training of the average civil servant.
In the modern State with its vast and increasing range of responsibilities, the Civil Service has surely become a profession requiring as high a degree of specialization as medicine, or the Services, or the Bar, but how many of the young men, excellent as they are, who pass to-day from the university to the Colonial Office, have had even an elementary grounding in modern social subjects such as economics, sociology, law, constitutional history and the British Empire, or the comparative development of public social services? This intellectual void could in practice be filled by a course of special study on similar lines to that already provided for recruits for the Colonial Services. The theoretical knowledge acquired in this way would yield a maximum return if taken after some practical experience in the Colonies, and that is one of the main reasons why the noble Viscount has insisted that those who go to the Colonial Staff College should do so at a comparatively advanced stage.
I should like to see a broad extension of existing facilities for Colonial studies at the universities such as Miss Margery Perham has advocated in a most interesting letter published recently in The Times. I am not thinking merely of the older universities. A School of Colonial Studies might well be grafted on to London University. For reasons which I have no time to enter into now, I myself would be inclined to press this plan rather than the scheme for a Colonial Staff College which has been just described by the noble Viscount. The system of exchange between Whitehall and the Colonies should perhaps be applied more frequently to the senior officials at the Colonial Office, so that they may not lose touch at a later stage in their careers with the needs, and the change in needs, of the Colonial peoples, or forget the immense practical difficulties of administration in the field. It is probable that a higher degree of mobility and interchange between the two branches of our Colonial administration would secure the advantages without perhaps incurring some of the disadvantages of amalgamation or
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unification of the whole Colonial administration which has been advocated by the noble Viscount. A minor change, which one would welcome at the Colonial Office, would be the appointment of more Colonials to posts in the Administrative Department. I can speak from personal experience of the excellent work done by two officials of non-European descent who are at present assistants of the Welfare Officer in the Colonial Office. I hope their success will lead to the employment of Colonials whenever the necessary qualifications can be found, and of course they are admittedly difficult to obtain in many other Departments of the Office here at home.
Turning for a moment to the Colonies, I should like to say just one word about one of the most difficult and controversial problems which I think the noble Viscount did not mention. So much depends in the Colonies on the personality of the Governor that we cannot be too careful to make sure that the right man is found for the job. The customary practice, the present practice of appointing a new Governor from the Colonial Secretariat, must give rise to grave doubts lest the qualifications of District Commissioners, of men of long experience in the field, and of members of the technical services may be overlooked. Headquarters should not be allowed to monopolize the highest appointments. Another, perhaps less important defect of organization to which the noble Lord, Lord Moyne, in a recent debate drew attention, is that impoverished Colonies are apt to lose their Governors to wealthier Colonies that can afford higher salaries, and are therefore condemned, though obviously they stand in urgent need of progressive, go-ahead men at the top, to a succession of plodding mediocrities. I draw attention to the position and leave it, if I may, to the Government to propose the proper remedies.
Another difficulty in the matter of efficiency which has also been mentioned before, but is not at present satisfactorily met, is that a successful Governor will find his term of office brought to an end when he has occupied if for five years, however excellent the work may be that he is doing and however much he might still do if he were left to complete what he had undertaken. But perhaps the biggest contribution to increased efficiency at the top would be a system of retirement for

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senior officials on a pension proportionate to their services. Without this power, which is now being sought by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in relation to the Foreign Office and the Diplomatic Services and which is described in the White Paper to which the noble Viscount has already alluded, you are apt to get promotion by seniority of men who are not really suited to undertake greater responsibilities, or to have promotion by real merit which is bound to take the heart out of older men who are passed over in favour of their subordinates.
The need for drafting local inhabitants into the higher grades of the Colonial Administration, on which the noble Viscount has laid so much emphasis, so as to give them the benefit of the best practical schooling in self-government, should I think provide food for thought about certain salient features in the present organization of the Colonial Office. Whatever may be said in theory about an open door to all citizens of the Commonwealth, the unified Administrative Service is still mainly staffed by Europeans, birds of passage regularly on the wing from one Dependency to another, and this is in practice a barrier between the local population and the higher posts in their own Government. If in the interests of efficiency—and they must undoubtedly be put very high—unification is retained for quite a long time in the technical services we should start at the earliest moment to obliterate the distinction between an Imperial and a local service on the purely administrative side. Many authorities, I think, including the noble Viscount and the noble Lord, Lord Halley, have recommended that after the war the Colonies should be grouped together for administrative purposes. If that were done, it would be a simple matter to split the Colonial Service into a number of self-contained administrative bodies, the West African Service, the East and Central African Service, the West Indian Service and the Far Eastern and Pacific Service, each operating within its own sphere like the Indian Service or the Civil Service in the Dominions and here at home.
The problem of recruitment on which the noble Viscount also touched is in essence a question of sifting the best men out of the maximum number of candidates. The field of choice should, I am sure, be widened to cover new social and educa-
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tional categories. This is a point which has been made again and again. It has been repeated to-day and it has been made in previous debates on the subject in your Lordships' House. Of the 260 administrative appointments made to the Colonial Service between 1927 and 1929, 236 or approximately 90 per cent. were allotted to graduates of Oxford or Cambridge. It is astonishing that the eighteen other universities in the United Kingdom and Ireland should not have supplied a larger proportion of entrants. Most unfortunately we have no official figures for recent years—although the Department may have perfectly good reasons for not publishing them—but I must say I should be surprised if the emphasis on a certain type of education had been entirely displaced. I cannot help thinking that the time has come when a university degree should not be regarded as quite so high a qualification as in the past, for there are many men without a university education whose practical experience and personal qualities are full of promise for a useful career in the Colonial Service. There is, I think, room for criticism of present methods of sifting material for the Service. An interviewing board is always apt to get a superficial impression of a candidate, and even with the assistance of his whole school record can do little more than hazard a shrewd guess at his probable intelligence and qualities of personality. If selection is retained, the official interview might perhaps be supplemented by an intelligence test conducted by trained psychologists. This method has been successfully tried out for getting candidates for Commissions in the Army.
LORD STRABOLGI: Question!
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: There are no doubt two schools of thought on that point. I know there are many who say that this innovation has worked extremely well and produced some excellent officers. The scientific test of general intelligence, which would include quickness of response, initiative and adaptability, ought surely to provide a more sure criterion of fitness for the Service than the customary brief cross-examination. I am not saying the one should supplant the other, but rather that they might be dovetailed together. There is quite a weight of authority in favour of restoring the time-honoured practice of a competitive written examination. It is undeniable that no

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other system can give the same guarantee of impartiality, but though it ought undoubtedly to be used whenever circumstances permit, I should be inclined to treat it at present as a happy exception to the general rule of selective entry. I have endeavoured to offer these few suggestions, which I hope are constructive and practical, with the thought that they might receive the consideration of the Government and get a careful examination from the Secretary of State for the Colonies and his very able assistant on the Front Bench opposite and from the Department. In that spirit I conclude my contribution to the debate.
LORD WEDGWOOD: My Lords, I think the noble Viscount who introduced this Motion is a very dangerous man, dangerous because he presents his case with such attraction in your Lordships' House. He referred to me in the course of his excellent speech as probably differing from him. There are many things with which I entirely agree—he has convinced me, converted me—but there are one or two things on which I think the other side should be stated before the Government come down on one side of the fence or the other. I think it would be extremely dangerous to group Colonies under stronger Government—dangerous for this reason, that it puts the man on the spot in a stronger position than he occupies even at the present time. The Colonial Office may find it far more difficult to deal with the Governor of Africa than he does to persuade the Governors of individual Colonies what it is that Parliament at home wants. The whole of our system of democratic government in this country depends upon the criticism of Parliament being applied to Colonial administration. If you put a further wheel in the machine, a further Governor who would be able to be quoted as an authority contrary to the wishes of Parliament, then you would make that criticism all the more difficult.
The noble Viscount thinks quite rightly that it might be more efficient, and he instanced an admirable argument which I had not heard before, about the ridiculous way in which the people on the spot may refuse to build roads for fear that they will compete with the railways and reduce railway revenue. That ought to have been stopped long ago, but it would not have been stopped if there had been a Governor
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of Africa. That stupid policy would be applied not by the Colonial Office but by the Governor-General whose revenues depended upon that obscurantist policy. The noble Viscount said to my great distress that he heard nothing but good about the position of the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, as pseudo-Governor of Africa during war-time. I think probably the noble Viscount is all right in war-time, but I remember that neither in your Lordships' House nor in another place is there a more convinced protectionist than the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton. Under post-war conditions, under the conditions of the Atlantic Charter, it is absolutely necessary that we should not have people who are convinced of one particular set of doctrines occupying positions of such authority. That is by the way. I dare say the noble Viscount is very good in war-time.
Another point on which I wish to touch is the noble Viscount's suggestion that there should be an Advisory Committee on economic questions. That raises a very big issue. An Advisory Committee on general subjects, I think your Lordships would agree, would hamper Parliamentary influence upon administration and would therefore be deplored, but now that the noble Viscount brings the suggestion forward attractively with special relation to economic matters, I am afraid he will have the House with him. I do hope your Lordships will see the other side. The tendency now is, and has been for generations, to develop Africa, to make the African work, to make him produce the goods we all want. We all want more Colonial products now than we were accustomed to have when I was young. The only way to get them is to develop Africa, and it is from that point of view that the noble Viscount urges this Advisory Committee on economic affairs.
Please look, my Lords, at the other side. The African—the natural African—works to produce things for himself. He works on his own land to produce food for his family. If you want to develop the country you have to make the African work harder, and somehow get him into the labour market. During the last quarter of a century we have seen in Colonial matters an industrial revolution taking place exactly parallel to the revolution in this country at the end of the eighteenth century and the beginning of the nineteenth century, the industrialization of an

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agricultural community. It was bad enough for our people to be flung unprotected info the industrial system. The same thing is happening throughout Africa, India and Asia to-day. Do remember in your passion for developing these Colonies, that it means the industrialization of these people, that it means making them work, that it means substituting for the old slavery a new form of slavery, not as bad as the old but having the same evil effects.
This is not a one-sided question. Every time you get cocoa, or rubber, or tin, it means that some people are working harder; even being worked to death. And they have to work without any of the protection that our ancestors had a century and a half ago. They are flung into this industrial pit. Before we increase their labours, before we increase the benefits to ourselves that arise from those labours, let us remember that our government of our Colonies is, and always has been, a trusteeship for these people. Let us not give way to that Passion for exploitation which has pervaded every other Empire in the history of the world. Let us be actuated by the desire to do our best for the people. To do the best for these people is not to make them work for us, but to allow them to work for themselves.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I would not have intervened in this debate—unfortunately, I was not able to get here in time to listen to what the noble Viscount responsible for this Motion had to say in moving it—if it had not been for a few words spoken by the noble Lord who has just sat down. He suggested that the zoning of Colonies would interfere with Parliamentary control of conditions and arrangements in those Colonies. I have great sympathy with him in that matter, and I have felt that in a great many of the debates on this subject that have taken place in your Lordships' House in the last few months, not only has that point of view been overlooked, but the point of view of the Colonies themselves has been overlooked also. I hardly ever hear—in fact I have never heard, except, perhaps, from my own mouth—the suggestion made that the views of the Colonies themselves should be taken upon these matters, and that we could learn from them, through such expression of opinion as they can give us, what they feel about these plans now
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being laid down for zoning for internationalization, and so on.
In your Lordships' House a short time ago the noble Viscount the Leader of the House, who was then Secretary of State for the Colonies, made a most admirable speech in which he defined the conditions, the very varying conditions, which exist in the Colonies of the Empire. If you go to Africa—which I gather formed a great part of the theme of the speech of the noble Viscount who moved this Motion—you find most varying conditions. You find conditions where the natives have risen to the extent of living in comfortable houses and using food and raiment and so on very much like that which we ourselves use. But on the other hand, in Central Africa, you find conditions which result in the natives still living in kraals, and still scratching at the ground in a primitive way. They are, in fact, living in conditions from which we hope very much to see them rise, and in respect of which we should do everything that we can to raise them. So, if you are going to zone, you are going to put under one Governor-General Colonies in which the most varying conditions obtain; conditions which it is absolutely impossible to assimilate at the present time. I suggest that that aspect of this matter should be very carefully looked into.
Now let us turn to another part of the world—the West Indies. It is suggested that they should be zoned, that they should be federated and that there should be a Governor-General. I spent a number of years in the West Indies; I had these aspirations myself, and I did my best, so far as I could in my small way, to bring these things about. But where you get a large number of islands with varying populations—because you have different kinds of natives of the negro type in the West Indies, some coming from one part of West Africa and some from another, some speaking patois French and some pidgin English and many of them talking very good English indeed—living as they do, growing different crops and so forth, you will find that desire for unification or federation is not as extensive as it is shown to be in your Lordships' House in a debate of this kind. So, what I want to suggest—and it is the only reason I have risen—is that not only the Colonial Office but also noble Lords who participate in these debates should take such steps as they can to investigate

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and find out what the people in these Colonies themselves want under the new plans which, no doubt, are good in themselves.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I am sure your Lordships will agree that we are very much indebted to the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, for having brought forward this Motion this afternoon, and for the very valuable and informative speech which he made. I think that your Lordships will have welcomed in particular the tribute which he paid to the really invaluable work which has been done, and is being done, by the Minister Resident in West Africa. That work is beyond all praise, and I am sure that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State would wish me to endorse most heartily all that the noble Viscount has said on that subject. I am sure also that he will be grateful to the noble Viscount for the tribute which he paid to the progress which has been made in recent years in the West African Colonies. The Colonial Office is very well accustomed to having brickbats thrown at it; it is not so familiar with bouquets, but they are none the less welcome, and I thank the noble Viscount for what he said. Many of the things which he said needed saying, and need publicity not only in this country but throughout the world. They come very much better from the noble Viscount, with his very wide knowledge and experience, than they would from a Government spokesman, and I am very grateful to the noble Viscount for saying them.
The noble Earl opposite also made a most interesting contribution to the debate, and one which I can assure him will be very carefully considered. The day may well come when he in his turn will be Under-Secretary at the Colonial Office, and then I think he will find that some of his criticisms relate rather to the past than to the present. I have been only a very short time at the Colonial Office, but I think he would find, if he was in my place, that the Office is very much less academic than he supposes. My experience is, as I say, a very short one, but I find that, if I want to talk about any subject concerning any part of the Colonial Empire, it takes me only two or
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three minutes to get in touch with a man who has first-class, first-hand and quite recent experience of that part of the Empire. I can assure the noble Earl that the old division between the cloistered and the secluded life of Whitehall and the life of the Colonial administrator in the field is to a very large extent a thing of the past.
He also made some interesting suggestions as to methods of recruitment, and I am sure that they will be borne in mind. I think, however, that he scarcely did justice to the immensely great pains which are taken to secure men of the very highest quality for the Colonial Service. It really is not a question of a relatively short interview settling the matter. There is a very exhaustive process of inquiry, not only into a man's ability in examinations but also into his qualities generally, and the final interview with the Board is only almost the culminating process. One of the functions of the Under-Secretary is to see, as far as possible, every one in the junior ranks who goes out to the Colonial Service. The Secretary of State sees the "swells," but the Under-Secretary sees everybody that goes out. In the very short time that I have been in the Office, I have been immensely impressed by the high quality of the young men we are securing for the Colonial Service. It seems to me that they are going out there very definitely, not so much for a career, but because they really do feel a vocation not only to the Empire but to mankind. They are men of the highest quality; there is not one of them I should not be glad to take into my own regiment. The other suggestions which the noble Earl made will be very carefully considered; I can assure him of that.
To return to the noble Viscount who moved the Motion, his object in moving it, as he told us, was to ascertain from the Government what progress has been made during the last nine months, during the time which has elapsed since he last raised a similar question, in five main respects: methods of recruitment of the Colonial Service, organization of the Service into a single interchangeable and independent Service, the establishment of a Staff College, the creation of an Advisory Board, and the grouping of Colonies into larger groups. I can assure my noble friend that all these matters are at this moment under the most active

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consideration. I hope that he will not be too much disappointed if I am not able now to go very much further than that. I would remind him that it is only two months since we had a full-dress debate on Colonial policy, and that in war-time communications are inevitably slow and consultations more difficult than in peacetime; and I would, with all respect and with great deference to his immense experience of these matters, remind him of the enormous complexity of these questions.
We in this country have a uniform Civil Service, a common system of pay and grading, a common method of entry, a single central control and one legislative body, Parliament, to vote the necessary funds. Our own Civil Service would be very different indeed if every Department of the State were in a position to run its own Service, to determine its own establishments for the different grades, to fix its own scales of pay and pension conditions, and to recruit its own staff, subject only to a very general degree of supervision from a central authority, and under a system of loose federation under which officers might from time to time be moved from one Department to another. I am sure that your Lordships can readily imagine the complications of such an imaginary arrangement; but they are very much less than the actual complications of the Colonial Civil Service, where differences of race, of language, of climate, of geographical situation and, perhaps more important than all, of the stage of political, economic, and social development reached by the populations, have all to be taken into account.
It is perhaps too generally assumed outside that the Colonial Service is a body of men employed and controlled by the Secretary of State. I do not for one moment suggest the noble Viscount assumes anything of the kind, but I think that view is very generally held outside. The Colonial Service is, of course, nothing of the sort. The Colonial Service is, in fact, a collective name given to a great body of officials who make up the public services of the respective Dependencies. Each of these public servants is employed, not by the Secretary of State, but by one or another of the Colonial Governments. The salaries and conditions of service are financed and controlled by the local legislative
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bodies. We are sometimes apt to think of the Colonial Service in terms of European officers, but the officers sent out from this country are numerically only a small fraction of the whole, and the proportion of such officers to those locally recruited varies according to the capacity of the different Colonies to provide suitably qualified staff from local sources.
I have said enough to show that the organization of the Colonial Service into a single interchangeable and independent Service is by no means a matter which concerns His Majesty's Government in Downing Street only. Legislative bodies all over the world are also concerned, and the processes of investigation which are inevitable before alterations can be effected must necessarily be lengthy. The organization of the Colonial Service must always be viewed against this background, and experience has shown that two main principles of development are needed and have to be pursued simultaneously with a just balance maintained between them. The first principle is that the share of the Colonial peoples in the partnership of governing Colonies must be a real one. Every opportunity must be given to Colonial peoples to man their own public services and to manage their own affairs.
This means not only that all posts in the public service of the Colony should be thrown open to the inhabitants of that Colony—that is the case already—but what is necessary is that those inhabitants should be able to get sufficient training to qualify them for service. Some Colonies—I will not mention any names—have reached the stage at which educational and training facilities and general social advancement are sufficiently broadly based to enable the Administration to rely on the local population for staffing the greater part of the public service. In other places this stage has not yet been reached, and it is necessary for the present and will be necessary for some considerable time to come to import substantial numbers of European officers to carry on the complex functions required for modern administration.
This brings us to the second principle, which is that the Colonial Empire, taken as a whole, requires the services of a substantial body of officers of European stock recruited mainly in this country and in the Dominions. The functions of these

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officers, as I have suggested, is to supplement local resources of man-power at the higher levels and to help to create those conditions in which these Colonial populations which have not already done so can develop to the stage of being able progressively to take over the management of their domestic affairs. It is, of course, this body of officials which the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, had particularly in mind in making his suggestions. For obvious reasons the officers selected for this part of the Colonial Service must be men of very high quality, both personally and professionally. Past experience has shown that such officers cannot be attracted and retained on the basis of allocation to individual Colonies. Some Colonies are large enough and rich enough to offer full scope for the career of a high-class administrative and professional officer; many Colonies are not so situated.
To meet this difficulty, some thirteen years ago, on the recommendation of a Committee presided over by Sir Warren Fisher, the then Secretary of State, Lord Passfield, introduced a policy of unification of the Colonial Service. Under this policy grades in the various branches of the Service which are normally filled by recruitment from this country were combined into a series of unified services on a professional basis: the Colonial Administrative Service, the Colonial Legal Service, the Colonial Medical Service, the Colonial Agricultural Service, and so on. Since this system was introduced an officer recruited for any one of these branches entered a Service not confined to any one Colony but spread over the whole Colonial Empire. While he remained a civil servant employed and paid by the Government of the Colony in which he was for the time being serving, he was available to be posted by the Secretary of State to any Colony in which his services might be required, and his prospects of promotion were not confined to one place but extended over the whole Colonial Empire.
By this means the Colonies have been, and are, continuously being provided with a pool of highly qualified officials whose position throughout the Colonial Empire can be varied from time to time. There can be no doubt that this unification scheme has been of inestimable value to the Colonies during the period that it has
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been in operation, and that the Colonies have secured in this way staff of a higher personal and professional quality than they could possibly have obtained by any other means. In fact, the justification for the policy lies in its results, which are open for the world to see. But there cannot be and should not be anything static in Colonial administration. Events are moving with immense rapidity and the war has speeded them up with an even greater rapidity than before. Organization must march with the times, and it is essential that there should be flexibility to meet changing conditions. It may, I think, be assumed that the two principles to which I have referred—the progressive development of local public services and the assistance of that development by a unified Colonial Service, recruited in this country or the Dominions—will remain in force for some considerable time to come. But it is none the less necessary for the Government to examine the whole position and to see what adjustments and improvements are necessary in the machinery of the service. I think it would be unwise to assume in a matter which is at once of such importance and of such complexity that methods and procedure which are appropriate in conditions of 10 or 12 years ago will be equally appropriate in what may be very different conditions after the war.
That examination is being undertaken. It is being undertaken in and by the Colonial Office, but your Lordships will appreciate that it cannot be done entirely here. The Colonial Governments will have to be taken into consultation, and full weight will have to be given to their views. Much spade work has to be done before any proposals can be offered as a basis for public discussion. We are at present in the stage of spade work and investigation, and any attempt to indicate probable lines of action would be premature, though Parliament and the public, both here and in the Colonies, can be assured that when there are proposals to discuss full opportunity will be provided for them to be debated, both in Parliament and in the Colonial Legislatures. I hope that the noble Lord will be satisfied with that assurance, and will recognize that it is impossible for me to make a premature statement on the very complicated questions which are involved.
Then I come to the noble Lord's fourth I main point—the creation of a Colonial

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Economic Advisory Council. The proposals he has made this afternoon differ in some important respects from those which he made in his speech of last May. Then he seemed to contemplate a Colonial Advisory Council which should cover the whole field of Colonial government and administration: this afternoon he has made it clear that what he has in mind is an Economic Advisory Council. Last year he seemed to contemplate that the Council should be responsible to, or at all events report direct to, Parliament: this afternoon he has made it clear that he contemplates no such drastic constitutional change, and no division of the Secretary of State's responsibility to Parliament. These are new proposals, and I cannot at this stage commit my right honourable friend in any way, but I think I can, say that the suggestions which my noble friend has made this afternoon are more likely to commend themselves to him than those he made last year. I can certainly assure him that my right honourable friend will carefully consider the proposals he has made.
I now come to the noble Viscount's fifth and last main question, that of the grouping of Colonies into larger groups. This again, like his first three, is a question which concerns not only the Government of this country but the Governments of all Colonies concerned, and it is clearly one of very great importance and of very great complexity. In East Africa, the East African Governors' Conference has been in existence for a number of years, and it was put on a more formal basis as a result of the recommendations of a Joint Select Committee of 1931 on Closer Union in East Africa. The Governors of Kenya, Uganda and Tanganyika and the British Resident at Zanzibar are full members of the Conference, while the Governors of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland are associated to the Conference and attend meetings when subjects are under discussion which are of interest to their territory. Meetings of the Conference are normally not held more than twice a year, but special meetings are called in addition as occasion arises.
In the intervals the business of the Conference is carried on through the Conference Secretariat. The staff of the Secretariat has been very greatly increased since the outbreak of war and now has the handling of a good many questions
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of joint concern. In addition, it is used to a great extent as a channel of communication between the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, East Africa, and the Conference of East African Governors. The great mass of the correspondence exchanged between the Colonial Office and East Africa on defence and economic matters, now passes through the Conference Secretariat instead of direct with the Governors, and there is a tendency for the practice to spread to all matters in which more than one of the East African Governments are concerned.
In West Africa there is the central machinery provided by the appointment, to which the noble Lord referred, of the Resident Minister—the noble Lord has made reference to his splendid work—and there again the tendency has been somewhat similar. The central element of the machinery in the Minister's Office is the West African War Council presided over by the Resident Minister and attended by the Governors of the four Colonies and the three Service Chiefs. There is also a Service Members' Committee which bears the same relation to the War Council as the Chiefs of Staff Committee bears to the War Cabinet. The noble Lord will, I think, be interested to hear of these developments.
May I say once more how valuable I believe his speech to have been and how sincerely the Government welcome his valuable suggestions towards the development of an up-to-date and progressive Colonial system? I hope he will not be disappointed by what I have said. I know that I have not been able to give him anything very positive, but I have tried to assure him that things are moving. I hope he will be satisfied that we are moving in the direction he desires, and that his representations have had an effect upon the Government. I hope, therefore, he will withdraw his Motion.
VISCOUNT TRENCHARD: My Lords, in asking leave to withdraw my Motion I should like to thank the noble Duke for his full reply, which I shall read carefully when it is in print. So far as it goes it is most satisfactory, but there is one thing that I hope the noble Duke will convey to the Secretary of State. He seemed to point to the difficulties in the way of carrying out many of the suggestions that I have made. I agree that there are difficulties, but after a long experience

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I am bound to say that none of those difficulties is going to become less formidable as the world develops. If these reforms are not put into force now, it will be more difficult than ever to carry them out five years hence. I have too often seen that with the passing of the years difficulties have become greater and more formidable still. I therefore feel that the Government have to take a chance and go ahead rather than allow these difficulties to overwhelm them. I thank the noble Duke for all he has said, and I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

A WIDOW'S PENSION.
LORD GREVILLE: My Lords, I do not wish to put the question which stands in my name—namely, whether His Majesty's Government will reconsider the case of the late No. 317731 Corporal W. A. Aston, R.A.F., with a view to giving his widow a temporary pension.

SECRET SESSION.
The Notice on the Paper in the name of Lord Beaverbrook was as follows:
To call attention to the work of the Ministry of Aircraft Production; and to move for Papers.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Strangers will withdraw.
Then, in pursuance of the Resolution that the sitting of the House to consider the Motion be in Secret Session, the Official Reporter withdrew.
House in Secret Session.
House resumed in Open Session.

LORD CROFT'S DENIALS.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Rushcliffe, I beg to ask the question standing in his name.
[The question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether attention has been called to statements with reference to the Under-Secretary of State for War in certain newspapers in connexion with the subject of the Beveridge Report and
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A.B.C.A., namely:—"On this occasion after reading the Beveridge summary, he took the step of telephoning to Mr. Williams, Current Affairs Director, and, we understand, informed him that he would have to go to the Conservative Central Office about it'…" and the further statement: "And in fact a deputation headed by Lord Croft had gone to the Prime Minister to protest against this dispensation of strong Beveridges to the innocent troops;" and whether these statements are correct.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD CROFT): My Lords, I have read the statements referred to and am glad to have the opportunity of informing the noble Lord that it is incorrect that I telephoned Mr. Williams on reading the summary and that I held any conversation by telephone or otherwise; neither did I make any communication in writing to the Director of Current Affairs with reference to the Beveridge summary; nor have I discussed the Beveridge Report or the article in A.B.C.A. with the Director either before or since the Beveridge Report was first published. I was further unaware that the suggested matter was to be issued until I saw a copy in print prior to its dispatch. The statement is therefore untrue.
It follows that since I had no conversation I could not have threatened to "go to the Conservative Central Office about it," which is therefore equally untrue. With regard to the alleged deputation to the Prime Minister, such a proposal was never made and no such deputation took place. It is a deliberate falsehood. I take this opportunity of expressing my personal resentment at the imputation of disloyalty on my part towards my Chief, an imputation which, happily, I know he equally resents.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department extending Section 1 of the Act to the
Borough of Tynemouth:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) for affirmative Resolution and ordered to lie on the Table.

  WOMEN'S SERVICES.
  WOMEN'S SERVICES.